HD 1 08 UC-NRLF $B Mb &73 DOCUMENTS DFPT, GIFT OF NOV 17 4-5 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. A. 1905 THE ROYAL, COMMISSION APPOINTED TO INQUIRE INTO TUB IMMIGRATION OF ITALIAN LABOURERS TO MONTREAL AND THE ALLEGED FRAUDULENT PRACTICES OF EMPLOYMENT AGENCIES REPORT OF COMMISSIONER AND EVIDENCE PRINTED BY ORDER OF PARLIAMENT Issu.ec! toy th.e Depju^bwafiM.^ of 31iab,cyvir, Canada OTTAWA PRINTED BY S. E. DAWSON, PRINTER TO THE KING'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY 1905 [No. 3661905.] -* - * CONTENTS Order re Appointment of Commission V Commission vii Letter transmitting Report of Commissioner ix Report of Commissioner xi APPENDIX Minutes of Evidence 1 Index of Witnesses 171 365-u 343045 ORDER IN COUNCIL RE APPOINTMENT OF COMMISSIONER Privy Council, Canada. EXTRACT from a Report of the Committee of the Honourable the Privy Council, approved ~by the Governor General on June 20, 1904- On a report dated June 16, 1904, from the Minister of Labour, submitting that- by an Order in Council passed on May 23, 1904, it was referred to His Honour Judge Winchester, senior judge of the County Court of the county of York as commissioner under chapter 114, Revised Statutes of Canada, to inquire into certain complaints respecting the alleged employment of aliens in connection with the proposed National Transcontinental Railway, and that such inquiry is now in progress; that complaints have been made that a large number of Italian labourers have recently been brought to the city of Montreal ; that it has been represented that many of these persons were induced to come to this country through representations made by persons in Canada that there was great need of labour in the Dominion in connection with various public works and enterprises, and that certain agencies and organizations are at the present time in existence in the city of Montreal for the purpose of further promoting such immigration; that many of the said persons on reaching Montreal failed to find employ- ment as represented, and that in consequence much distress has resulted among those who have been so induced to come to Canada, and serious dissatisfaction has arisen among Canadian workingmen in the said city and elsewhere in the Dominion; that it is expedient that an inquiry be made to ascertain the circumstances which induced the said Italian labourers to come to Montreal, and the persons engaged, directly or indirect- ly, in promoting their immigration, and the means and methods adopted in bringing about such immigration. The Minister recommends that the said Judge Winchester make such further inquiry in connection with the present commission, and that the said Order in Council be amended by adding after the words ' the nature of the appointment applied for and the result of such application/ the words, ' also that an inquiry be had as to the circum- stances which have induced Italian labourers to come to the city of Montreal from other countries during the present year, the persons engaged directly or indirectly in promoting their immigration and the means and methods adopted in bringing about such immigration.' The Committee submit the same for approval. (Signed), JOHN J. McGEE,, Clerk of the Privy Council. The Honourable The Minister of Labour. COMMISSION (.Sgd.) EGBERT SEDGE WICK, Deputy Governor General. [L. S.] CANADA. EDWARD the SEVENTH, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, King, Defender of the Faith, Emperor of India. To all whom these presents shall come, or whom the same may in anywise concern Greeting: WHEREAS in and by an Order of Our Governor General in Council bearing data tLe twentieth day of June, in the year of Our Lord one thousand nine hundred and four, provision has been made for an investigation by our Commissioner therein and hereinafter named with respect to certain matters therein mentioned as upon refer- ence to the said Order in Council, a copy of which is hereto annexed, will more fully at large appear, such order being an amendment of the Order of our Governor Gen- eral in Council, cited in our certain letters patent, bearing date the twenty-third day of May, one thousand nine hundred and four, authorizing and empowering our said Commissioner to investigate certain matters therein referred to. Now KNOW YE that by and with the advice of Our Privy Council for Canada, we do by these presents nominate, constitute and appoint His Honour John Winches- ter, Judge of the County Court of the County of York, in the Province of Ontario, to be our Commissioner to conduct such inquiry. To HAVE, hold, exercise and enjoy the said office, place and trust unto the said John Winchester, together with rights, powers, privileges and emoluments unto the said office, place and trust of right and by law appertaining during pleasure. AND WE do hereby under the authority of the Revised Statute respecting in- quiries concerning public matters, confer upon our said Commissioner the power of summoning before him witnesses and of requiring them to give evidence on oath orally or in writing, or on solemn affirmation if they are persons entitled to affirm in civil matters, and to produce such documents and things as our said Commissioner shall deem requisite to the full investigation of the matters into which he is hereby appointed to examine. AND We do hereby require and direct our said Commissioner to report to our Min- ister of Labour of Canada the results of his investigation, together with the evidence taken before him and any opinion he may see fit to express thereon. IN TESTIMONY whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent and the Great Seal of Canada to be hereunto affixed. Witness The Honourable Robert Sedgewick, Deputy of Our Right Trusty and Right Well-Beloved Cousin and Coun- cillor The Right Honoura'ble Sir Gilbert John Elliot, Earl of Minto and Viscount Melgund of Melgund, County of Eorfar, in the Peerage of the United Kingdom; Baron Minto of Minto, County of Roxburgh, in the Peerage of Great Britain; Bar- vii viii COMMISSION onet of Nova Scotia; Knight Grand Cross of Our Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George; etc., etc., Governor General of Canada. At our Government House, in our City of Ottawa, this thirtieth day of June, in the year of Our Lord, one thousand nine hundred and four, and in the fourth year of our reign. By Command, (Sgd.) JOSEPH POPE, Under Secretary of State. (Sgd.) A. POWER, Acting Deputy of the Minister of Justice, Canada. LETTER TRANSMITTING REPORT OF COMMISSIONER TORONTO, March 24, 1905. The Honourable Sir WILLIAM MULOCK, K.C.M.G., M.P., Minister of Labour, Ottawa. SIR, I have the honour to transmit to you the result of my investigation as Special Commissioner appointed to inquire as to the immigration of Italian labourers to the City of Montreal in the year 1904, together with the evidence taken before me and documents produced. I have the honour to be, Sir, Your obedient servant, (Sgd.) JNO. WINCHESTER, Commissioner. REPORT OF COMMISSIONER TORONTO, March 24, 1905. To the Honourable SIR WILLIAM MULOCK, K.C.M.G., M.P., Minister of Labour, Ottawa. SIR, I have the honour to report that pursuant to the Royal Commission issued to me, bearing- date June 30, 1904, authorizing me to inquire as to the circumstances which induced Italian labourers to come to the City of Montreal from other countries during the year 1904, the persons engaged, directly or indirectly, in promoting their immigration, and the methods adopted in bringing about such immigration, I prose- cuted such inquiry in the City of Montreal on the 30'th June, 1st, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 25th and 26th days of July, 1904. During the first five days of such inquiry I inspected the correspondence in the offices of Messrs. Alberto Dini and Antonio Cordasco, as well as that in the office of George E. Burns, officer in charge of the special service department of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. Having obtained translations of the correspondence found in the possession of Mr. Dini and Mr. Cordasco, it being in Italian, I appointed the 21st July, 1904, to proceed with the examination of witnesses at the Court House in Mon- treal, and on that date I began the examination and continued same until the close of the inquiry on July 26, during which time I examined 64 witnesses. The Circumstances Inducing Italian Immigration. The evidence shows that for some years past a considerable number of Italians have been employed in connection with the construction of railways and other public works in Canada; that during the year 1903 the Canadian Pacific Railway alone employed 3,144. Of these, 1,200 were in Montreal and the remainder came from the United States. Mr. Burns in his examination stated that since the summer of 1901 he engaged Italian labourers for the Canadian Pacific Railway, almost exclusively through Mr. Cordasco. Previous to that year he had employed other agents, namely, Mr. Dini, the two Schen- kers, and possibly one or two others, in obtaining Italian labourers for the company, but that in the year 1901 there was a strike on the Canadian Pacific Railway, and he made special arrangements with Mr. Cordasco to obtain Italian labourers for the rail- way. Cordasco in turn employed agents in the United States to assist him in getting the required number. With reference to the number of labourers required for the year 1904, the evidence given by Mr. Burns was of a contradictory character. Referring to the obtaining of Italian labourers he gave the following evidence : xi REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION ' Q. Did lie (Cordasco) visit the United States with you last year, last September? A. He did, Your Honour. ' Q. What for ? A. He went down for the purpose of getting some agencies for steamship companies. ' Q. Was that for the purpose of getting Italians from Italy ? A. I do not know about that ; the way it came about was this : he had a regular office and was doing a large business, but he had no steamship agencies, and of course when these Italians come back from work most of them have a good deal of money which they want to send over to their relatives and friends, some for their wives and children, and they buy these steamship prepaid tickets. Cordasco was desirous of getting a line of these tickets from the different steamship agents, and he came to me about the matter, and I told him he could easily get agencies if he made the proper representations to the agents in New York. i Q. You recommended him? A. I took some steps to get these agencies for him. ' Q. Did you appoint him sole agent for the "company A. I never appointed him sole agent; I have always reserved the right to cancel any agreement I had with him; there was no definite period. ' Q. You have seen his advertisement from time to time? A. I have. i Q. In which he states that he is sole agent ? A. Yes, I think that is the trans- lation, that he is the only agent for the Canadian Pacific Railway. ' Q. Besides being an immigration agent he is interested in a newspaper called Corriere del Canada ? A. I believe he is the owner. ' Q. You advertise in that, do you, Mr. Burns ? A. There is an advertisement there. ' Q. Is it with your authority, you authorized it ? A. Yes. f Q. Your method of getting workmen was to call upon Cordasco for a certain number when you needed them ? A. We are entirely dependent upon orders from the divisions which come through the superintendents, and we have no means of stating exactly when men are required, and formerly the superintendents would send in orders, and they do it yet. These orders are generally by telegram. Mr. Skinner is telephoned, and if he is busy Mr. Cordasco is called upon to arrange the matter. A copy of the telegram sent in by the superintendent is sufficient notice for him to go ahead. ' Q. Then at the end of the year you would estimate the number you would re- quire for the following season ? A. As far as Italians are concerned. < Q. Did you do that last year ? A. Yes. 1 Q. And how many did you estimate last fall for this year's work ? A. Your Honour, a great deal depends upon certain conditions as to whether one can make a proper estimate as to what labour is going to be required in the following year. Last year the market was all down and money was tight, and every one thought there was going to be no work going on this summer; all contractors and others were on uneasy street and could not get any idea, it was impossible for my departmnet at the time to say how many men would be required, and it looked as if we would have to utilize the men in Canada first before taking up this Italian question. I may say that sometimes we have been obliged to go to the United States to bring Italians her? to send to the North-west, and last year I do not suppose we took more than 1,200 out of Montreal. 1 Q. How many men did you estimate for this season's work last fall ? A. I do not think I made any estimate one way or another. ' Q. What means do you take to ascertain the requirements of the service ? A. I send out to many contractors and men accustomed to employ labour and make in- quiries. In addition to that I ask all the general superintendents on the line what their experience was before, and what they would require for going on. In regard to the year before I asked them their experience as to when men quit and requested them to state exactly how many men stayed with the company and did not jump their contracts. I thought by this means to form some idea as to the requirements for 1904, and as I stated before I was not able to foresee. 02V ITALIAN IMMIGRATION xiii ' Q. How many men, in round figures, did you estimate being required for 1904? A. I have forgotten; I do not remember what such number jvas." 1 Q. When we adjourned last evening we were inquiring into the question of th j estimated number of labourers you would require for 1904 ? A. Yes, your Honour. ' Q. Well, now, you told me that you had written some superintendents for in- formation so as to enable you to estimate the: number ? A. Yes, your Honour. ' Q. What was the result of your efforts to estimate that number ? A. The effort was fruitless. On looking over the matter I found some superintendents did not give correct information, some delayed answering so long that as a matter of fact the spring was so far advanced, and we saw there was going to be a large number of labourers in America, and we dropped the whole matter; there was 110 estimate. * Q. You stated last evening you thought there would not 'have been so many re- quired for 1904 as had been used in 1903 ? A. That statement was based on in- quiries I had made and the result of this communication was that I thought there would be a stringency in the money market and consequently probably few works of any importance going on throughout the country. ' Q. Was that your opinion at that time ? A. It was, your Honour. ' Q. Now, you said you had about eight or nine thousand on the list in 1903, of which about 3,100 were Italians ? A. Yes. ' Q. How many did you think you would require for 1904 ? The Italian part of that number ? A. I had no idea whatever. ' Q. What means ^do you take to provide them ? A. That was generally all right, it does not require particular action. 1 Q. It required some information from your agent, who employed them? A.. We 'kept pretty well posted as to labour immigration in New York and in Boston. Q. But you relied upon Mr. Cordasco to supply you with all the Italians you wanted ? A. Yes. 1 Q. If you relied upon him I suppose it was necessary to give him some informa- tion as to the number you required ? A. Well, I have never given him any definite information. ' Q. Did you give him any information as to the number you would require hi 1904 ? A. None. 1 Q. Never spoke about it ? A. I may have discussed the matter. 1 Q. Have you discussed the matter with Mr. Cordasco as to the likely number you would require in 1904 ? A. It was possible. ' Q. Do you know how many you suggested to him ? A. I do not remember sug- gesting any number. Q. Do you remember saying to any one that the Grand Trunk Pacific would re- quire a great number ? A. No, your Honour, I may have inquired if the Grand Trunk Pacific would require them. ' Q. But you never mentioned that to anybody ? A. We may have discussed that matter. { Q. With Cordasco ? A. Yes, it was discovered that the Grand Trunk Pacific was not going to require any Italians. ' Q. When did you discover that ? A. I think late in the spring. 6 Q. This year ? A. Yes. ' Q. Look at that letter, was that letter written by you ? A. Yes. ' Q. And I suppose the statement there is an estimate ? A. That is in December. 1 Q. I am talking about December? A. Yes, Your Honour. ' Q. That was your opinion at that time? A. I was thinking about the spring. ' Q. I was referring to fall not the spring, Mr. Burns. Now, your letter reads as follows : Xiv REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION "December 10, 1903. " E. P. BRADY, Esq., " Asst. General Superintendent, " Winnipeg, Man. " DEAR SIR, Referring to the attached, my object in asking for this information is to make adequate provision early in 1904 for the labour requisitions during the sea- son of that year. " This year we had an unprecedented demand for labour from all sources over this company's lines, and we have shipped out in the neighbourhood of 10,000 men, skilled and unskilled, so you see that it is very important for us to know what proportion of those sent out on the lines worked out their contracts, so that some information may be obtained as to the reasons for so many men jumping their work with a view of j.-emedying that state of affairs during the coming season. It is also necessary to find out what the local supply of labour is on each division. " As you are possibly aware, there is every indication of. a large demand for labour in this country in 1904. I am informed that possibly the Grand Trunk Pacific may want a great many thousand men, and as the supply of labour is limited in Can- ada, steps may possibly have to be taken on the part of our company to import labour from abroad, or make some definite arrangement in regard to the supply available in Canada. " I am sorry to trouble you for this information, knowing you are so very busy, but I would like very much to be in a position to make my report about the first week in January, 1904. " Would you kindly strain a point to get your superintendents to forward inf orma- tion desired. " Yours truly, " GEO. E. BURNS." ' That was your opinion ? A. That was at the time. I presumed the Grand Trunk Pacific was going ahead. 1 Q. At that time that was your opinion, Mr. Bums ? A. Well, if it was rrot I would not have stated it. 1 Q. You stated yesterday that your opinion was just the other way, that the same number would not be required in 1904 as in 1903? A. Well, I think that I took into consideration the Grand Trunk Pacific project when I wrote that letter. ' Q. I know that I was asking you what your opinion was in the fall of 1903. You stated your opinion that a large number would not be required. Now, you wrote in December you would require more; which is correct? A. It is difficult to reconcile both, although I utilized the information I had on hand when I wrote. ' Q. When I was trying to find the aggregate number in former years you showed me a statement to the effect that you did not think you would require so large a number, which is correct, your recollection or the letter ? A. I should say my letter. ' Q. How soon did you speak to Mr. Cordasco about supplying the Canadian Pacific Railway with Italian labour? A. I have no recollection of speaking to Mr. Cordasco about Italian labour or to giving Cordasco any definite idea. ' Q. When you spoke to him would it be as early as September, 1903 ? A. I do not think so. 'Q. December? A. No. ' Q. You understand Mr. Cordasco's position ; he would have to get men, he would have to make arrangements ahead? A. Certainly. 1 Q. How long ahead would he require to make arrangements ? A. It just depends on the state of the labour market. Q. You are beginning to look for men as early as the opening of spring ; now, when would you require to inform Mr. Cordasco ? A. I do not think I ever made any preparation. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION X V ' Q. Did he ? A. Not to my knowledge. ' Q. You advertise in the same paper he does, you get that paper ? A. I have never seen his advertisement for men. ' Q. You remember the advertisement Mr. Dini says he put in in consequence of the advertisement of Cordasco? A. I do, Your Honour. ' Q. You say these labour agents had to prepare some time ahead, and you had to prepare some time ahead ? A. No, the preparation was not made. We had no data to go on. 1 Q. I understand you were preparing to get ready for the work ? A. We were looking around. Q. You did not speak to him (Cordasco) at all? A. I spoke to Cordasco several times. ' Q. When ? A. In the course of the winter. * Some steps, some arrange- ments would have to be made. When I come to think of this matter I can tell you what made me write this letter. ' Q. Well ? A. I had been in New York and had met our agent. 1 Q. That was the time you were down with Cordasco ? A. I think that was the time, and he informed me that the general agent of the Anchor Line had told him he was to bring in 10,000 for the Grand Trunk Pacific. 1 Q. Who was the agent ? A. I do not know. This agent stated that they were bringing in about 10,000 men for the Grand Trunk Pacific this spring, and I think it must have been acting on this information I wrote that letter. ' Q. That was September you were down? A. I think not; I think it was later than September; I think it was in December. ( Q. Had Mr. Cordasco that information, too ? A. I think he had. * Q. You were both together at the time ? A. Yes. ' Q. So that he was also aware that they were preparing then for a large number of men ? A. Yes. * Q. At that time you thought that steps might possibly have to be taken on the part of your company to import labour from abroad? A.* Yes, Your Honour. I may say that I took some steps in regard to the importation of labour with the management; it was my desire to send some one of our men over ' Q. To Italy ? A. No, to England, Scotland and Scandinavia for the purpose of getting immigrants. 1 Q. How many were you going to get out ? A. We wanted him only to get prepared. 1 Q. He was not going to send men over ? A. Only 100 or 200 ; we wanted him to be ready if we required men to send them by next ship. 1 Q. You would not go into such an undertaking for the company without con- sulting the management, you proposed that to the management this spring ? A. Yes. ' Q. When ? A. I think it was in the month of February or beginning of March. ' Q. Did you talk to Cordasco about helping in this matter ? A. Cordasco was not in it; the Italian question did not come into it. ' Q. Did you not inquire how many you could depend upon getting ? A. I did make some inquiry* hut I did not know the num'ber. I spoke to Mr. Cordasco. ' Q. Did he not tell you he was having a lot of men coming from Italy ? A. I think he did mention that he had a lot of men, he did not tell me they were coming from Italy. ' Q. You are quite clear about that ? A. I am ; I have no recollection of his saying about bringing any men from Italy. ' Q. He wrote you a letter on May 10, 1904 ? A. Yes, I remember that letter distinctly, but I have no idea he ever brought them over. ' Q. The letter is as follows : xvi REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 'Montreal, May 10, 1004. ' G. E. Burns, Esq., Special Agent, C.P.E. Re Information. 'Dear Sir, Arrived by the way of Chiasso, over 300 Italians and nearly 200 by New York. Sure will be a disgraceful for these poor immigrants with the old ones which they put up here all winter, and Italian Consul with his society are to be blamed and they should be crushed to peace. 1 Your servant, ' A. CORDASCO.' In Mr. Cordasco's evidence he admitted receiving a number of letters which were found in his office and also admitted some of the replies sent to same from his office, but invariably denied that he authorized his clerk to state that he wanted 10,000 men. Some of the letters so received and answered are as follows : On the 18th October, 1903, he wrote to Mr. Ludwig, passenger agent, Chiasso, Italy, as follows: ' By the same mail I am sending you package of my business cards, asking you to hand them to the passengers or better to the labourers you will send directly to me. Please note that work here is never short, and anybody you will send to me personally are sure to be employed. In summer you may send hundreds of them and be sure a^ soon as they arrive they will find work at once. To satisfy the Italians better, I have opened a banking office, of which I send a circular to you, and from which you will see that I can do all that they request. Awaiting for some shipment, and to hear from you soon, Yours truly, A. CORDASCO. P.S. Please note that on the Canadian Pacific Railway alone I employ about four thousand men per year, besides the other companies. Please take all the informa tion you may require about me;' In answer he received a letter from Mr. Ludwig dated Chiasso, November 27, 1903, in which he stated: " I am going to try and send you some passengers in the hope that they will not be cheated, and if I see you act as an honest man I shall give your address to all the passengers who go to Montreal If you provide work for some of my passengers you must be satisfied with a modest commission, and Alberto Diiii, with whom I worked until now, placed my passengers without any commission, and I never had any complaint against him. We shall see then, if you will work with the same conscience and punctuality. Waiting to hear from you, F. LUDWIG." On the 7th December Mr. Cordasco wrote him a very long letter in which he stated : " Every year I secure work for 4,000 or 5,000 men, and next spring I need 10,000 to employ in the Canadian Pacific Railway, and other railway companies and contractors, and you must know that all the workingmen for whom I secured work, when the season is over, and that have paid every expense, they can save from $150 tj On the 26th January a letter was sent to Mr. Luigi Scarcella, 243 Rideau street, Ottawa, Ont., in which he said : ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. " Next season I shall be in need of 10,000 men whose work will be heavy, and I (Understand in your letter you do not like to work with a shovel. In the beginning of March please to write again, and I will see if I can do anything for you, but I can- not promise anything." On the 9th February he wrote a similar letter to Aristide Guerrieri, Post Office Box 11, Mapleton Dep., Pa., as follows : "Your letter (without any date). I am sorry to say I shall not be able to find any work that will suit you. I find work for thousands of men, and this year I shall be in need of 10,000 of them, but I need only men that can work with shovel and pick." And on the 19th February in a letter to Angello D. Sentis, 18 Canal street, Buffalo, N.Y., he writes : " I need this year nearly 10,000 men, but all of them must be able to work with pick and shovel. If you like you may engage men for the firsl shipment, but I do not take any responsibility, only take those men who give their name by their own free will and send me the list of the names very clearly written with a mark that shows they have paid $1 each for office and inscription fees." On February IT, 1904, there was a post card sent to him from Udine, Italy, by Antonio Paretti, as follows : ' I received a newspaper, the Corriere del Canada, in which appears your distin- guished name, as 1 believe you are the kind donor. As we have a strong stream of emigration (from the Venetian Provinces) towards that country, I should be very glad to frequently receive your newspapers, and I can reciprocate by sending you Italian papers. You might send me a time-table of the Canadian Pacific Railway from Mon- treal to the interior of Canada, with a map * * " In answer to this postal card the following letter, dated March 1, 1904, was sent : ' Sig. Antonio Paretti, 1 94 Aquilea, Udine, Italy. 'I am in possession of newspapers which you were so kind as to send me; also your cards, and wish to thank you for them ; also two packages. I am sending you the time-table which you asked me for and my address, which you can give to the people so that I will know them when they come. ' At the end of the present month there will open up great and important works, and I must supply about 10,000 labourers. If you have any passengers, you can send them without any fear I am able to give them immediate work. The salary will be $1.50 a day; besides that they will get a return ticket from avy locality; they can board themselves or get board as they like. The work will last long and the payment is sure. Each man gets a contract in Italian, containing the clear conditions under which they have to work, in which is specified the length of time, salary, &c. In one word, there will be no tricks or schemes. I am always here to defend the interests of compatriots. I am, besides, in touch with other navigation agents in Italy, and they have already written to me that they will send some passengers to me this month. If you send any one to me, please supply them with two of my business cards that I sent you, so that each passonger landing at New York will be recognized by one of my agents, which agent, authorized by me, will accompany them to the train, and on the train to Montreal, so that they won't be taken up by anybody else, or fall into the hands of speculators. Already a large number of workers arrive continuously, especially from Vicenzo, Treviso, and some from Padova, Belleno, also some from Pordenone, Codroipo. c If you wish to send us any men, you need not have any fear, and send them all to my address. You must notify me in time when the men will arrive, sending the names of the passengers and of the company and boat by which they start, * With regards, ' (Sgd.) A. CORDASCO, 366 2 ' Per A. GANNA. xviii REPORT OF ROTAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 And on April 6, the following letter was sent : ' Mr. ANTONIO PARETTI, ' 94 Via Aquilea, Udine. ' In these days some Italians come to me showing your blank business card and say- ing that you recommended them to me, and although the presentation signal was not a sure guarantee, I received them and shall send them to work. 1 In future it will be better, when you send Italians to me, to give them one of my business cards with your office on them, and I shall be sure they are sent by you. ' Some time ago I sent you several business cards ; to-day I am sending you some more of them. 'I thank you for the newspaper you sent me and hope you will receive weekly the newspaper that I send you. ' Yours truly, ' ANTONIO CORDASCO, 1 Per A. GANNA/ On April 26 Mr. Cordasco further wrote him as follows : ' Mr. ANTONIO PARETTI, ' Udine, Italy. ' I confirm my letter of the 6th inst, and I address you the present to clear up some facts that cause me annoyance, that I do not need to have. 'Many immigrants from the Venetian provinces came to me declaring that they were sent by you, but without any card of recognition, and alleging that you had pro- mised that they would be sent to work in two days. ' I don't wish to blame you for that, nor do I believe what the men say, but I think it is better to clear the matter up. I give employment to all Italians who come to me, as I wrote you in my letter of March 1, but it is absurd to expect that I am to give employment to-morrow to a man who applies to-day to my office. I could not put him before the others who are awaiting their turn to go and work. Please note that this year we had an uncommonly long and hard winter, and in the west, where important railway works will be done the roads and land are still frozen, and it is 110 use sending labourers there. This year I sent away only 70, while in previous years at this time I sent away more than a thousand. ' Please note that many of your men declare that they are stonecutters, and that you promised them I would have them employed in this quality. I never wrote this. ' Many of these men said that they did not intend to work on (railways, but to ob- tain from me free transportation to British Columbia, and then with very little money to go to Michel and work in the coal mines. t You will understand how all this annoys me. I am not responsible for the ex- tremely cold season that prevents the companies from starting work. ' No one has sent men away yet, and I have only sent 70. 1 In conclusion, so as to eliminate trouble, from this moment do not send me any more passengers, and if you like to send some, please inform me how many are coming (as I asked you in my letter of March 1), and every man must have my business card with your office stamp on, and they must be warned that they must wait for their turn to work. Please, in the notice that you send me, state that you have warned them that they will have to await their turn. Also please send me a list with the names of the passengers you send me. Outside of these conditions, I am sorry to say that I could not accept the responsibility of giving work to your passengers. Please inform them that I will send them to work on railway construction, and that they will have to work with pick and shovel. ' If, afterwards, some roadmaster may choose of them for some special work, it will be all the better for them, but I cannot guarantee to employ men in any particular Quality. ' Yours truly, 'ANTONIO CORD AS GO, ' Per A. GANNA.' ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION x i s SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. To tlrs letter he received the following reply: 1 UDINE, ITALY, May 8th, 1904. : In prompt reply to your favour of April 26, which has called my attention and surprise to the facts you have mentioned, and which is in full contradiction with the other of the 6th of the same month, in which you complained that I did not send pas- sengers addressed to you with your business card. Now, I must tell you that it is not my system, after 22 years' experience in emigration, to advise or not the passengers who are at liberty to do what they like. This is my principle. ' All our emigrants addressed to Canada were booked for beyond Montreal, and \ve are sure of that, for our companies do not give railway tickets beyond your residence. ' I gave the address to nobody, only to those who read your newspaper, full of promises. I answered giving good references of your firm. ' You must have great experience, and you must know that everybody can come and say what he likes, coming to you without a written line. ' Be sure that we are very careful, and we hope you will be too, and we quite under- stand when something happens that cannot be helped. This year everything has been against us, but we hope better days will come. " Yours truly, " PARETTI." On January 27, 1904, Domenico Zappia sent the following letter from Italy to Mr. Cordasco : " STAITI, January 27, 1904. '* Mr. ANTONIO CORDASCO, " Railway Agent, Montreal, Canada. " Although I do not deserve to have the honour to be acquainted with your highly respectable person, I take the liberty of writing directly to you asking you a favour. " As there are here about 70 men who wish to emigrate to that country, I wish you would be kind enough to receive my countrymen passengers on their landing in that part, and tell me which will be the best spot where they can be visited. ' In obliging me witji a favour answer, please tell me when the works under your control will be started. I was pushed to write this letter by the noble and good reputa- tion your name enjoys in this country. Please let me know which will be he best landing port on account of the visit. " If I shall be able to reciprocate such an obligation, I offer you my services if you will please yourself and command me. " Please accept my unlimited gratitude, &c, " Yours, " DOMENICO ZAPPIA." " P.S. I wish to know how much costs there, via New York or Boston. " I beg you to answer me at once, otherwise I cannot make the men start. Please also let me know something about the age of the men, and if men over 60 years of age will be accepted; if they will be received by you, and how they have to answer to the inquiries." To which Mr. Cordasco, on March 2, 1904, sent an answer as follows : " MONTREAL, March 2, 1904. " Mr. DOMENICO ZAPPIA, " Staiti, Prov. Reggio, Calabria. " Your favour is before me, and in short I will let you know anything you require. You may send to me as many men as you like, and I shall be able to find work for them at $1.50 per day, board by themselves, and the railway fare up and down free. " Every man before he goes to work receives a contract that guarantees his pay, &c. " You can make your men leave from March 20 or 25 via New York. xx REPORT OF R07AL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII.. A. 1905 "If you will tell me exactly the day on which the men will leave Naples, with which company and steamer, I will send my agent to meet them in New York. He will put them on board the ca>rs and send them to Montreal without any trouble and with- out falling into the hands of speculators. If they will land in Boston I will send my Boston agent to meet them. ' I am sending you a parcel of my business cards, which you will give to your men to be recognized at their landing in New York or Boston. ' Re the age of the immigrants, you must follow the Italian immigration laws that do not allow passports to people over 45 years old. 1 Awaiting to hear from you, Yours truly, ' ANTONIO CORDASCO, 'Per A. GANNA.' On March 3, the following letter was sent from Mr. Cordasco's office in reply to a letter received by him from Marche, Province of Rome, Italy. " MONTREAL, March 3, 1904. " Mr. TOMMASO MONTEVERSE, " Civitanova, Marche. " I have before me your favour of February 3, and I have recommended you to a good company, the Transatlantica de Barcelona. Q. That is the company you sold a number of tickets for ? A. Yes, one of them. " If as you write there are many men who wish to come here you may address them to me, and for that purpose, in a separate registered parcel, I send you some envelopes and business cards, and you may give one of these cards to each of your passengers, so when they land in New York they will show it and they will be addressed to me. " In this season the works are enormous and every man will go to work with an agreement in Italian in which are explained the wages, how long the work will last, &c. "Every workingman earns $1.50 and more per day. He is at liberty to board himself and transportation free up and back. I am here to protect, defend and help the workingman. "Now, you know how matters stand, and in the event of your going to send me some passengers, send me a list of their names and the name of the steamer so that my agent in New York may go and meet them. "Yours truly, "ANTONIO CORDASCO, ''Per A. GANNA." While Mr. Cordasco stated that he never knew that the number 10,000 had been inserted in any letters written from his office, his clerk, A. Ganna, stated that Mr. Cordasco received all the correspondence himself and opened same, and that he was instructed to write letters in the tenor in which these were written. Not only was 10,000 metioned in these letters but Mr. Cordasco admits that he mentioned that 10,000 men were wanted, to men coming into his office seeking employment, and several wit- nesses testified to his making such statement. Mr. Cordasco admitted that he owns the greater part of the paper Corriere del Canada, which is printed in Italian, and states that a number of copies of each issue are sent to Italy. His examination ..ith reference to same is as follows : u Q. You advertise in the Corriere del Canada? A. Yes, they have one of my advertisements calling for men. * Q. Two or three advertisements in that paper ? A. Yes. OA r ITALIAN IMMIGRATION xxi SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. ' Q. How long have you been advertising in that paper ? A. Since November. 1 Q. You own it ? A. I do not. ' Q. Do you not own the greater part of that paper ? A. Yes. 1 Q. And you object to being called proprietor ? A. Yes. ' Q. You get paid for the advertising in that paper ? A. Yes, most of the people have to pay. ' Q. How many copies did you send to your town ? A. About 25 or 30. 1 Q. How long have you been sending them to your town ? A. Since November. ' Q. How many did you get printed ? A. Some times 450. i Q. Did you send one half to Italy? A. Not quite, I suppose. ' Q. About half ? A. 60. ' Q. More than 60 to your own little village ? A. In my village I have many relatives. ' Q. And you sent them every week ? A. Weekly. * Q. You get people to write articles in this paper for you ? A. Yes, to write articles some times. ' Q. Scarrone wrote an article for you ? A. Yes, sir. * Q. You asked him to do so ? A. No, sir, never. * Q. Who suggested he should use your name in connection with the Canadian Pacific Railway ? A. I do not know. ' Q. You remember his writing an article for you ? A. Yes, I did not ask him to do it. ' Q. The Corriere del Canada has a long labour article ? A. February the 27th, 1904 ' Q. It is headed " Italian Labourer " and it reads : " The working season is approaching under a very promising aspect. The prin- cipal companies have in the past few winter months estimated for a large amount of work, and will give employment to a more considerable number of men than in other years. The greatest and most sincere friend 'of the Italian labourers, Mr. Antonio Cordasco, of Montreal, the sole Italian agent for the most important railway company in the world, the Canadian Pacific Railway, proposes himself to give, in the coming season, work to as many labourers as may apply to him. What he proposes to do him- self cannot but be realized owing to the enormous amount of work the Canadian Pacific Railway will do this year. " This company, which, both for the^extension of its lines and for its capital, is the finest among railway companies, and it is considered also as the most important proprietor of land, owning 14,000,000 acres. It has always employed a larger number of labourers than any other company and with higher wages. Mr. Cordasco, the sole agent of the company, never betrayed the .confidence that was put in him, not only fulfilling his duty as an agent, but assisting and protecting Italian labourers, and tho good reputation he enjoys among the different companies and contractors is the best guarantee for the labourers employed through him. " But the most splendid proof of that has been given by two thousand labourers, who in orderly parade, demonstrated a few days ago in Montreal that they did not forget what was done for them, and even if there were no other proof, this would be sufficient to show the philanthropic work of Antonio Cordasco. " The spontaneous demonstration by two thousand men in a town where Italians are not counted by hundreds of thousands was most flattering for the person honoured, and we cordially congratulate Mr. Antonio Cordasco. " What we say is not flattery, for we very well know that Mr. Cordasco, as a busi- ness man, does not care for that. It is only to sympathize with him for what he does for the Italian labourers who come here ready to fight against any kind of adversity, and who find in Cordasco a father, a friend, who not only helps and protects them, but puts them in a position to provide for their families and their aged parents. REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 " But as if all that was not enough, he has instituted a solid bank, through which anyhody can send money to any part of Italy within a few days. " We trust that the benevolent action of A. Cordasco will last for years and years, for the welfare of our labourers, and we cannot help to let his name be known to everybody, so that our compatriots will know when landing here that they will find a friend waiting for them." * A. I never ordered that, I never ordered this man to put in one line of that kind. i Q. Turn up the letter to Mr. Scarrone ? A. I never ordered him to send such an article. { Q. Did he not send that article to you to be printed ? A. He sent it to be printed. ' Q. And you saw it before it was printed ? A. Yes. ' Q. You had it printed ? A. Yes. ' Q. You sent that paper all over Italy ? A. Sixty in Italy besides my town. ' Q. You wrote on February the 9th ? A. That was the very day when I was in bed. ' Q. You say: "I have received yours of the 7th instant and I thank you very much for the kind words you wrote in your correspondence, of. which I am proud. But I am sorry that I cannot publish this correspondence as I do not wish the readers to know that I am the capitalist and administrator of the Cornere del Canada. " If I should place this before the readers they will say that I sing my own praises, that I order others to praise me; so you can (and I thank you for that) send articles on the work and solidity of the Canadian Pacific Railway, but do not tell the readers that I belong to this newspaper. " You may say this privately to your advertisers and subscribers. I like the prin- ciple of your correspondence, which is well written, but you understand that it is no use to let the people know that I have a share in the newspaper for the above reason. " If you send for Monday a good article on the work of the Canadian Pacific Railway, I shall publish it with the greatest of pleasure. I take the opportunity to thank you for the kind reception you gave to my traveller, Mr. lanuzzi. " Please tell me if you received the newspapers. I will be glad if you will con- firm that you accept to represent the Corriere del Canada on the condition pro- posed. " Please send me your cut, for I wish to introduce you to the readers by publish- ing it. "Wishing you good business, and hoping to receive on Monday an article to pub- lish as correspondence from Toronto. " Yours truly, "ANTONIO CORDASCO." ' Q. You advertised in La Patria Italiana ? A. Yes, about a month or two ago, a couple of months ago. ' Q. Did you put in advertisements for some time ? A. Yes. i Q. Some friend put one in ? A. Yes. 1 Q. Was that the one about the ten thousand men ? A. Yes, I remember he put in an advertisement asking for men.' The evidence shows that the newspapers and cards referred to in the above letters and sent by Cordasco to Italy were distributed there and resulted in a number of Italian labourers coming to Montreal, as shown by Mr. Cordasco's letters to Paretti in March and April above set out and also shown by the evidence of several of the witnesses, among whom were Antonio Sicari, Francesco Picimento and Saverio Cresavi. Antonio Sicaro being examined, stated that he arrived here on May 15 from Reg- gio, Calabria. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION xxiii SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. 1 Q. What made you think of coming here ? A. They sent so many newspapers and circulars, and some representatives. 1 Q. Who sent them ? A. A man named Pasano, he paid for' many men. 1 Q. How many ? A. In my village about twenty. ' Q. Where did he direct you to go ? A. He gave the address to each man, and told us to go to Cordasco, and we paid 450 francs. ' Q. All ? A. Yes, all. I paid 450 francs, there were ninety of us paid the same amount. ' Q. Where were you directed to go ? A. To Cordasco, they gave us his name and address. ' Q. What did you do in New York ? A. We were visited and examined and come direct to Montreal, and went to Cordasco and paid him $3. ' Q. How many men came with you in the same vessel ? A. 750 Italians. ' Q. Did they all come to Montreal ? A. I think there remained about thirty in New York. ' Q. Had they the address of Cordasco, all these men ? A. Yes. ' Q. Did you see any circulars from Cordasco ? A. Oh, yes, there were lots, and newspapers. 1 Q. What was on the circular ? A. It stated that any man that could come would make plenty of money, so that we came to this country and left our families. ' Q. Did the circulars state how many men were wanted ? A. They stated that every man should like to come, because he would make lots of money. ' Q. Did they state the wages ? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. How much? A. From 7.50 to 10 lire per day, stone mason, 15 lire, or about $3 a day. ' Q. Did you get any employment since you came here ? A. We were promised work from day to day and some got work. ' Q. How many did get work, between six and seven hundred ? A. I do not know, because we did not stay in the same place. ' Q. Were there many without money ? A. No one had money. ' Q. How were you supported ? A. Well, our families helped us some, and others helped us. ' Q. What is the name of the steamer you came in ? A. Santo Trado. ' Q. What line ? A. The Italian General Navigation Company.' Francesco Picimento stated that he was nineteen years of age, arrived in Mont- real on April 25 from Reggio Calabria in the steamer Ingle Terra. ' Q. Who paid your passage coming over ? A. I pai<* myself.- ' Q. How much ? A. $34.20. 1 Q. How many came out with you ? A. From the same village there were about thirteen or fourteen. ' Q. From all parts ? A. 1,800 with the sailors. ' Q. How many came to Montreal ? A. Fourteen came to Montreal. 1 Q. Did you come direct to Montreal ? A. The ship arrived in New York. 1 Q. How many men came from the ship through from New York to Montreal ? A. Fourteen from my place, I do not know about the rest. ' Q. Were there many ? A. Yes. ' Q. Did you see any papers to induce you to come here ? A. Yes, sir. 1 Q. What were they ? A. They came from Montreal. ' Q. What name was on them ? A. Cordasco Bank. < Q. Who showed you these papers or gave them to you I A. Some gentleman from that place. ' Q. They left the papers with you ? A. Yes, he had lots of papers. ' Q. What did the papers say ? A. All those who wished could come to Montreal and make plenty of money. ' Q. Did you come out in the same boat as Antonio Sicari \ A. No, before him, the ship before. xxiv REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 ' Q. How long before you came out did you see the circulars ? A. They com- menced to post circulars in February, two years before. ' Q. You saw that circular two years ago ? A. There was a circular telling them to come here and make money. i Q. Whose name was on the last circular ? A. I do not remember. ' Q. Do you remember the name on the Montreal circular ? A. Yes. 1 Q. Whose name ? A. Antonio Cordasco, Montreal. ' Q. Did you apply to Cordasco for work ? A. Yes. 1 Q. Did you give Cordasco any money ? A. Yes, I paid $3. ' Q. What for ? A. I paid because he asked for it, so as to send me to work in the country. 1 Q. Did he send you to work in the country ? A. No, sir. ' Q. Did you ask for the money back ? A. Yes. ' Q. And Cordasco refused to pay ? A. He said, i Why do you want it, you will be on a gang that will start to-morrow.' 1 Q. Have you any means of paying your way ? A. No, sir. 1 Q. How are you supported ? A. I have no more money, I was obliged to work for fifty cents a day, it ceased the other day. ' Q. Are you working now ? A. No, sir. 1 Q. Do you know any men in Montreal who came from your village this spring ? A. There is a cousin of mine here.' Saverio Cresavi stated that he arrived in this country on May 15 from Reggio Cala- bria, having paid his passage out on the steamer The Piedmonte of the La Veloce line. ' Q. What induced you to come out ? A. I saw the others starting for this coun- 'try and I felt like doing the same. ' Q. How many came out on the same boat ? A. 550. ' Q. Did you all come to Montreal ? A. No, sir, only twenty-five. ' Q. Where did the others go ? A. To New York. ' Q. Did any of them come afterwards from New York to Montreal ? A. I do not know. ' Q. Did you apply to Cordasco for work ? A. Yes, sir. 1 Q. How did you come to do that ? A. He said if you have $3 you will go to work, and I paid the $3. 1 Q. Did you get a job ? A. No, sir. ' Q. Have you 1 asked for a job more than once ? A. Yes, I asked every day. ' Q. What did Cordasco say ? A. Well, all right, you can go to-morow, but I never went. ' Q. Did you ask for your money ? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. What did Cordasso say ? A. He said he would not return the money, but to wait until I got a job.' Guiseppe Mignella, being examined, stated: ' Q. Did you know any of the Italians that came from Italy during the spring ? A. I knew some. ' Q. How many ? A. I knew three from my own place and some from other places. ' Q. Who brought them out ? A. Fratello, who stated to me they had consulted Cordasco's newspapers.' Mr. H. Laporte, Mayor of Montreal, in his evidence said: ' Q. Did you know he (Cordasco) was interested in bringing them (the Italians) out ? A. Well, I have the names of a few agents, Mr. Cordasco, who I understand claimed he had large contracts from railway companies which he must fill, and he brought out a certain number of men. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION XXV SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. ' Q. Did lie mention about how many he would require on the railway ? A. He mentioned lost year about 10,000 would find employment. 1 Q. That he wanted 10,000 ? A. He expected that number would be required this year. ' Q. When was this he said that ? A. It was on the first or second of June/ Count Francesco Mazza, Italian Consul General in Canada, gave the following evidence : ' Q. Were you in a position to ascertain what was the reason for this excessive immigration ? A. It seems that persons interested in having immigrants come to Canada so as to employ them have written to Italy, and sent advertisements in order to have people come here. ' Q. That is not with your approval, or with the approval of the Italian govern- ment ? A. On the contrary, it is in opposition to the wishes' of the Italian govern- ment and the wish of the consulate.' Mr. James B. Mack, Vice-President of the Dominion Trades and Labour Coun- cil, and labour editor of the Montreal 'Star/ stated: 1 Q. Mr. Mack, whose names did these Italians who went to your office mention in connection with bringing them from Italy ? A. They mentioned Mr. Cordasco and several others ; at that time I was not so much interested in it as now. ' Q. Did they tell you the methods by which they were induced to come ? A. They had been induced by letters, circulars, and some of them cards, some on their own responsibility, others had wished to come to see if there were any good propositions in Canada, more wages, no need for any man to be out of employment in the Domin- ion of Canada.' Chevalier Charles Honore Catelli, the President of the Italian Immigration Aid Society No. 1, Montreal, being examined, gave the following evidence: * Q. Have you formed any opinion as to the chief cause of this excessive immi- gration, will you give it to us ? A. Some Italians came to see me, when I asked them why they came here they said they had been sent by Mr. Paretti, of Udine. ' Q. How many were there ? A. There were five or six. They went back. t Q. Did they show any cards ? A. They had a book of addresses and set of cards at Paretti's office. t Q. What were on the cards ? A. I did not notice, these people were told by Mr. Paretti that Signor Cordasco was a large contractor in Montreal and wanted eight or ten thousand men. ' Q. They were told that in Italy ? A. Yes. ' Q. That induced them to come to this country ? A. Yes. 1 Q. They have now gone back to Italy ? A. I was told they had gone back. ' Q. This is a statement by these men : " We, the undersigned, declare as follows : That at the moment of leaving Italy for Canada, Mr. Antoni Parretti has read and shown us a letter signed by Antonio Cordasco, in which he asks for 8,000 or 10,000 labourers from the Province of Venete, and in which he promises immediate work as soon as we get to destination. Besides this we saw circulars and newspapers coming from Montreal, with the photograph of Cordasco circulated in our province, encouraging the labourers to emigrate to Canada. Besides that Parretti distributed the address of Cordasco as above. " Signed by ten Italians." ' Q. Is that a correct translation .? A. Yes ,sir, that is about what they told me. ' Q. Do you remember receiving a letter of complaint from some Italians at Norih Bay ? A.Yes. XXVJ REPORT OF ROTAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 ' Q. Is this a proper translation of it : "States that the men were pretty nearly starving up at North Bay; they had got some help from another man who came from Montreal. If it had not been for him they would have died, some of them. Now would be the time to ask Mr. Cordasco where is that work which he had when he said he would employ 8,000 or 10,000 labourers, in the letter he wrote to Antonio Parretti , agent of La Veloce Udine. About twenty of us at Venete can prove this. Mr. Parretti read to us a great many times the letter of Mr. Cordasco. You must pardon my speaking about Mr. Cordasco, but my conscience compels me to. I am only doing it with a view to stop this fraud, and they have had to mortgage everything to come to this country, with the hope that they would find a fortune; in exchange they are suffering hardships and misery. " The day that I signed the declaration there were over twenty with me. Italians all over Canada tell you the same. " To certify the truth of what I am saying I will sign with two of my friends. " (Signed) ANTONIO COSANI, " DEMUKAZA GIOVANNI, " VITTOEIO VENTAKUTTI." 1 A. Yes, that is about the tenor of the letter. . ' Q. Which you received from North Bay ? A. Yes.' Mr. Ganna, clerk of Mr. Cordasco, in his evidence stated: ' Q. How many came from Calabria here ? A. I think in Montreal direct from Italy they did not come more than three or four from that province. ' Q. How many came from Chiasso ? A. That is another question, from Chiasso there came about eighteen or to enty, having business cards printed by Mr. Cordasco. * Q. Who do you think they were sent by, Ludwig for Cordasco ? A. Yes, he sent bis paper to about twenty young men coming to Montreal. Mr. Cordasco wrote the men last October, I do not remember the date. ' Q. How many came through Paretti ? A. I know of twelve. Upon the declaration of the ten Italians, dated April 22 being read, Mr. Ganna en id : ' Q. I remember that very well, because they came to the office, and afterwards went to the immigration office and told them; I remember that very well. ' Q. Will you look at that letter-book, page 60, Mr. Ganna, November 4, 1903 ? A. Yes, your Honour. ' Q. This is the letter : " MONTREAL, November 4, 1903. " GEO. A. KINGLAND, Esq., " General Passenger Agent " Canadian Pacific Steamship Line, Atlantic Service, " 6 St. Sacrament St., Montreal. " DEAR SIR, I represent nine different lines, as per the attached list, and I think I could do considerable business with your company. I do not refer to business to Italy, but I have had a number of inquiries for tickets to Liverpool and London, and I think I could sell a good many for you. " For references as to financial standing, please refer to the Dominion Bank, or if you require a bond, I am willing to put it up. I will also refer you to Mr. G. E. Burns, chief of the Labour Department, for whom I have been supplying men for a number of years. " I also supply men for the Grand Trunk, and a large number of contractors and railway companies in Canada, and in the course of the year get in touch with probably 6,000 or 7,000 Italians. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION xxvii SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. " Will you kindly let me know what you can do for me in the above and oblige. "Yours respectfully, " A. COKDASCO." ' A. I did not write that letter. ' Q. Whose signature is that to that letter in that letter-book ? A. That is Mr. Cordasco's own signature. ' Q. What steamship line does he write to there ? A. This is a French line ; I wrote this letter from a copy he gave me. ' Q. He wrote it first and you copied it for him ? A. I think so, I have copied this for him. ' Q. This is the letter : " MONTREAL, November 14, 1903. " Compagnie Generale Transatlanique, " General Agency for Canada, " 1672 Notre Dame Street, Montreal. " GENTLEMEN, I hereby beg to apply for the third-class rate steamship tickets for your line. I represent nine different lines as per the attached list, and I think I could do business with your company. " I have a number of inquiries for tickets, and I think I could sell a good many for you. " For reference as to financial standing, please refer to Dominion Bank or Hochelaga Bank or Toronto Bank. I will also refer to Mr. G. E. Burns, chief of Labour Department of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, for whom I have been supplying men for a number of years. " I also supply men for the Grand Trunk and a large number of contractors and railway companies, &c., in Canada, and in the course of the year I get in touch with probably 6,000 or 7,000 Italians. "Will you kindly let me know what you can do for me in the above, and oblige. " Yours respectfully, " ANTONIO CORDASCO, " Per A. GANNA." ' Q. Do you remember whether he got the agencies for these companies ? A. Yes, a few days after, I think about ten or fifteen days. ' Q. So this was before he wrote to the people in Italy for ten thousand men ? A. I do not remember the date of that letter. ' Q. These were in November, 1903, and your letters were early in 1904.' Mr. Alberto Dini admitted the following advertisement was inserted in the issues of La Patria Italiana of January 14 and 21, 1904, namely: " For the coming spring Mr. Dini announces that there will be a very large demand for perhaps 10,000 labourers for the coming spring. Italian workingmeii know that Mr. Dini is the representative of very many construction companies, and also are aware of the proverbial integrity with which he has in the past proven during the many years he has resided in Canada. Every one who wishes to be assured of work at good wages fiom the spring to the coming winter can go from the present time and be inscribed at tiie banking office of Mr. Dini, 2026 St. Catharine Street," In his examination he gave the following evidence: ' Q. This is an advertisement of La Patria Italiana, that is your name ?i A. I do not know who put it in. 1 Q. See, there is a similar advertisement put in by Mr. Cordasco ? A. I cannot say; a man coming home, employed by La Patria Italiana, say, You will see Cor- dasco wants about 10,000 men, and I told do what you like. I do not giya number. The paper came out and I see the advertisement. xxviii REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 ' Q. It was not your authorization, you did not authorize it ? A. No, sir. What papers say that ? ' Q. La Patria Italiana f A. Same paper. 1 Q. Yes. What excuse had you, Mr. Dini for giving an advertisement calling for 10,000 Italians ? A. I have not told to put in ten thousand. I told you they will reply to Cordasco's advertisement. I never told to put 10,000 or 5,000. ' Q. ' What was Cordasco's advertisement ? A. I think about 10,000. Q. How many Italians do you think you have succeeded in bringing here ? A. I did not bring any at all. ' A. Mr. Gordasco says he brought in 12,000 in three years ? A. Cordasco ? I do not know what he did, I have not bring men here at all. ' Q. Have you agents in Europe ? A. No, sir. ' A card having been produced to Mr. Dini with his name on same he was asked : " That is given to persons ? A. Given to persons coming from Chaisso to Montreal. i Q. That is they are recommended to you by the Societa Anomina d'Emigrazione at Chiasso ? A. Yes. ' Q. What you told me a minute ago was hardly correct; you have given authority for these to be given to introduce men to you ? A. Well, some times in the late sum- mer labour is very scarce, and they want to go around to Quebec. When the ship arriving in Quebec and get labourers and he write to me. Said I know you have a good name, and if I like I recommend to you. ' Q. And that is what this card is for ? A. Yes. 1 Q. How did it get to Chiasso ? A. I do not know ; probably the society gave it to him. ' Q. Do you know any one in Chiasso ? A. Well, I see one man when I was in Italy last year. I say to one or two agents, if you send these men recommend to me. I can promise nothing if men come to Canada otherwise. I go and see that man you consult in Dolo Vico. I saw him and another in Chiasso. 'Q*. Was that Ludwig ? A. Yes. ' Q. What agreement did you enter into with Ludwig about bringing men over from Italy ? A. No agreement ; I told him just a few words. He said, " Dini, you are here, I am glad to meet you. I think you do the best you can for the men. Give them your address, because the men complain when arrive in Montreal somebody else takes them." He says, he repeats, he complains, and that is the reason why I will send to you because there is no complaint at all. ' Q. How many men came to you this spring from Chiasso ? A. I cannot tell exactly, probably 100, probably 200 ; I do not think more. ' Do you remember receiving that letter from the firm of Corecco & Brivio ? A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. This letter is dated May 7, 1904, and is from Bodio, Switzerland, and address- ed to Mr. Alberto Dini, Montreal. " You are already aware that our firm has had your address for several years, having during that time sent you a great number of labourers. They received from you all the help and information possible regarding work and we have no doubt that our sending you such men has caused some trouble. " You are also aware that our firm is corresponding with the ' Societa Anonima d'Emigrazione, La Svizzera/ cs well as with other agencies of emigration of Switzer- land, which have been regularly and legally constituted. " You do not ignore that a brother of Mr. Schenker, one of those who has opened an office in Montreal for the exchange of money in order to compete with you, has lately opened an office in Chiasso, Switzerland, and gets passengers from Italy through the help of Schenker who is in Montreal. " The latter sends to his brother in Chiasso notices and orders lor the shipment of men, and the brother reads the notices to the passengers mentioning the ships they ought to go by. * ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. " Having had knowledge of this action on the part of Schenker we took the liberty of addressing ourselves to you in order to advise you and inform you thereof and to ask if it would be possible for you to do something for us in the matter. " In order to facilitate the thing for those who wish to go to Montreal through friends, you can exact yourself in Montread the amount of the passage money. Send us an order for shipment, saying at the same time that you should pay us only 170 francs from Chiasso to Quebec. All that you can get above that from the interested parties will remain to your benefit. " It is understood that our shipments will be executed as far as we are concerned with accuracy and precision. " We enclose herewith a list of the dates of sailings of the ships of the C.P.R., plying from Antwerp, and we beg to reply to us and hope that the same may be favourable. " We remain, " COKECCO & BRIVIO." " P.S. You can interest yourself in another way by suggesting to those who want to get their people to Canada, to take or get transportation through our firm. Or you may give us the address of the immigrants so that we may write to them and offer them our services. When the shipment is finished we will send you a commission, such as it may be possible for us to pay." ' Q. Do you know this firm, Mr. Dini ? A. No, sir. ' Q. They say they have been communicating with you for several years ? A. Well, I told you yesterday that men coming from Chiasso gave me a card. ' Q. Very many men ? A. No, sir. ' Q. When did you receive this letter ? A. I do not remember, in April or May. ' Q. What did you do on the receipt of it ? A. I never answered it.' Mr. Dini was in error when he stated that he did not give any instructions tc have the advertisement inserted in La Patria Italiana. Mr. Di Rosa in his evidence states : * Q. You are editor of La Patria Italiana ? A. Yes, chief editor. ( Q. Do you remember Mr. Alberto Dini asking you to write out an advertisement calling for 10,000 labourers ? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. This advertisement was published January 14 and 21 last, ' For the coming spring, &c. ;' did Mr. Dini ask you to write that ? A. Yes, the first time. ' Q. And it was repeated in other editions ? A. Yes, many times. ' Q. What is the circulation of your paper ? A. From 1,200 to 1,300. ' Q. Dini said here the other day that he knew nothing about this advertisement, he saw it only afterwards ? A. He came himself to my office and asked me to write the advertisement. 1 Q. Where did Dini tell you to write it, at what place ? A. In the newspaper office.' Means and Methods Adopted to Bring About Immigration. In addition to the means and methods to which I have already referred, the evi- dence shows that Mr. Cordasco employed agents in the United States for the purpose of hiring Italians for the C.P.R., he also had printed letter headings and envelopes bearing the Italian crest, the envelopes being in different colours, green, blue, yellow and brown. In his evidence with reference to these, he stated : *' Q. Does not that crest belong to Italy ? A. It is not the full crown of Italy. * Q. On arrival in Italy they would think that came from the King: ? A. I do not know that, your Honour. XXX REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 ' Q. You had these envelopes in different colours, green, blue, yellow and brown, these are all Antonio Cordasco's crests ? A. Yes, your Honour. i Q. Why did you put the Italian crest upon them without authority ? A. I did not do it myself, Ganna did it. 1 Q. You have the crest upon all your letter paper and envelopes, even upon that banquet invitation ? A, All through Ganna, I was sending nobody. k Q. You had no authority to allow you to print the coat of arms on your en- velopes ? A. I am ready to take it off if your Honour wishes. 1 Q. Was not that done for the purpose of making these poor immigrants think you were connected with the Italian government, and that you were really the King of Labour ? A. I will cut them off. Of course I asked Ganna ; he is not responsible, it is not a full crown." It was further shown that at least one or two persons went from Montreal to Italy fcr the purpose of bringing out Italian labourers. With respect to these the following evidence was given by Mr. Cordasco : ' Q. You know Mr. Marcucci ? A. I never saw him. ' Q. When did Mr. Marcucci go over to Italy ? A. Marcucci, I don't know any- thing about him. ' Q. He was sent over from Canada to bring these men out to this country ? A. I never sent him there. * Q. Did you ever hear of that before ? A. I never heard if this man went from Canada to Italy for men. ' Q. You know Boconcelli ? A. Yes. ' Q. Was Marcucci only employed ? A. I have heard him mentioned, but I do not know this man. ' Q. Then Marcucci did go from Canada ? A. I do not know, I think Boconcelli sent him. '.Q. What did he send him for ? A. I do not know. 1 Q. How many tickets did Boconcelli get from you to bring men out ? A. About 13 or 14 men, the books show it. 'Q. How much did Boconcelli pay for the tickets? A. $36.65 from Naples to Montreal ; $30 from Naples to New York ; $6.65 from New York to Montreal. * Q. Did he buy tickets direct from Naples to Montreal ? A. Yes. ' Q. What is your profit on each ticket you sell ? A. In this company I think $7 ' Q. How many tickets had you issued ? A. 14 tickets to Boconcelli. ' Q. Who directed him to do all that work, you ? A. Yes. ' Q. You instructed him ? A. For this work, yes. * Q. Boconcelli was a great friend of yours ? A. No friend of mine, no relation. ' Q. Never mind the relations, you lent him money ? A. Yes. ' Q. How much ? A. About $380. 1 Q. Now you sent Marcucci over to Italy with these tickets ? A. I know nothing about that, I heard he sent him. ' Q. Heard of it after he bought the tickets. Marcucci came back again ? A. I never heard of it. ' Q. Heard about it ? A. Boconcelli told me, that is all I know. ' Q. How much did he charge these men ? A. I do not know. ' Q. You heard ? A. I did not. 1 Q. What is the use of saying, you told me you did, they charged these unfor- tunate men $60 for every $30 ticket sold, Boconcelli said it ? A. He probably did, I do not know whether he got $60, $65 or $70. 1 Q. You are swearing to it, how much did he charge these men ? A. I think Boconcelli said he was going to charge $60. ' Q. Now, you have given money to Boconcelli, gave him $100, took a $125 note for it on demand ? A. That is all business. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION xxxi SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. ' Q. You sent him out as foreman ? A. I did that. 1 Q. One of the first men ? A. On July 16. * Q. He gave you a list of his men ? A. Yes. ' Q. He brought these Italians with him ? A. I don't know, I gave him $35. * Q. How was Boconcelli to get this $60 from those men ? A. I do not know. ' Q. Yes, you talked the matter over with him, you were to get money from him ? A. I lent 'him money to accommodate. ' Q. It was to come out of his wages ? A. Yes, whenever he got them. ' Q. That was understood 'I A. Yes. ' Q. These men were to pay their money out of their wages ? A. I had nothing to do with him. ' Q. You loaned Boconcelli the money because he brought men out, sold tickets and was to get it out of their wages ? A. I only loaned him money. ' Q. The first note you took was for $125, you paid him $100 ? A. Probably. 1 Q. The second note was for $65, how much did you pay him ? A. I do not re- member. ( Q. The third note was for $190, how much did you pay him, $140 ? A. Prob- ably. ' Q. These moneys you said you were > be recouped as soon as he got his wages from the Canadian Pacific ? A. Whenever lie earns it. ' Q. He was also to receive money from these men brought out irom Italy ? A. I do not know, he told me that they owe 'him an amount of money. ' Q. He was to get their wages to pay it ? A. I do not know. 1 Q. He told you ? A. He was looking to the men to pay the money. ' Q. Because he was to get their wages, every man of them, was not that the case, he was to get their wages ? A. That is what he said/ Mr. Ganna, in his examination, stated as follows: ' Q. Do you remember Nicola Maroni ? A. He had seven or' eight steamship offices in Montreal. 1 Q. Is he here now ? A. Not at present. . ' Q. Who were the men he brought out ? A. This I cannot tell. 1 Q. How did he come to send so many men * A. I remember he came twice. ' Q. Did he come in the same ship as Boconcelli ? A. Perhaps, one time I think he came with Boconcelli, I am not sure, yes, he came about the same time. 1 Q. He came on the same day, on January 11 ? A. In January, yes. 1 Q. Do you know how many tickets he purchased ? A. I cannot tell you exactly. t Q. Boconcelli and Maroni, there are seven marked there ? A. Yes. ' Q. Do you know how much he charged these men going out ? A. I do not know what Maroni charged. 1 Q. Probably the same as Boconcelli, they were together ? A. Some people have told me that Boconcelli charged $60, but I do not think this is true. ' Q. Mr. Boconcelli Uld that to Mr. Cordasco, that is what you heard? A. Yes, perhaps/ Persons Engaged in Promoting Italian Immigration. The evidence shows that the only persons engaged directly or indirectly in Canada in promoting the immigration that took place were George E. Burns and Antonio Cor- dasco, acting on behalf of the Canadian Pacific Railwa'y Company, and Alberto Dini. The Schenker Brothers referred to in the Corecco & Brivio letter to Mr. Dini, had ceased doing business in Montreal some time previous to the immigration in question, and so fa* as the evidence showed, had nothing to do with same. 3663 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 TREATMENT OF IMMIGRANTS BY AGENTS IN MONTREAL. The evidence shows that there were at least 6,000 Italian immigrants in Montreal in the month of May last, many of whom had been induced to come to Canada by reason of the advertisements and representations made to them as above set forth. The evi- dence shows further that the Italian labourers could not obtain employment with the Canadian Pacific Railway without first paying Cordasco the sums demanded by him, Mr. Burns refused to employ any Italians unless through Cordasco. The Italian Im- migration Aid Society, in order to relieve these men from this imposition, on March 5, 1903, wrote to Mr. McNicoll, General Manager of the Canadian Pacific Railway Com- pany, as follows : " DEAR SIR, We noticed in yesterday's Star that your company and sub-agents fear not to be able to secure a sufficient number of labourers to carry on all the esti- mated work for the coming season. " Two months ago we applied to your company, proposing to supply all the labour- ers you might need, and now we beg to apply to you personally stating again that : " You can trust on us for any number of men you may require, even for thousands. " We shall supply these men without any charge whatsoever for the company, and shall act as interpreters and do all the work, so as to pi-event any kind of trouble or annoyance for the officers and employees of the company. " Our society being under the control and subsidized by the Italian government, we may have good, sober and honest people coming to us through the Emigration Office in Rome, that would never allow criminals or sick men to come here. " Later on, when the railway work will be over, we shall try to settle those men 011 land and make them good and industrious Canadian citizens. " As our principal aim is to protect our countrymen against any kind of swindlers, of whom they have been victims until now, we try to secure the good-will and co-opera- tion of all the companies that engage Italian labourers, the Canadian Pacific Railway Company first, as tlte most important of the Dominion, offering our services for the allotment of the men. " Two months ago we sent to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company fifty copies of our by-laws, and as perhaps they did not reach you, we beg to send to you another one of them, from which you may see that our work is highly moral, and that it de- serves to be taken into consideration. " Please address yourself to our office, where you will find our agent always at your disposal for any information your company may require. " Trusting to hear from you very soon, so as to put us in condition to be always ready to meet your requests. " Yours truly, " C. MARIOTTI, Sec.-treasurer. " The Immigration Aid Soc., No. 1." To this letter they received the following reply: "March 16, 1903. " C. C. MARIOTTI, Esq., Sec.-treas. Immigration Aid Society, No. 1, " 906 Lagauchetiere St., Montreal. " DEAR SIR, Referring to your letter of the 5th inst., directed to the second vice- president and general manager of the company, and also referring to the conversation with the delegation representing your society which took place in my office some days ago, I would state I have taken up the question of the employment of labour with the proper authorities, and have to advise you that it is not the intention of this company to change the arrangements for the employment of Italian labour, which have been in ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. vogue during the past few years; our present system has given entire satisfaction so far, and I therefore regret I shall be unable to place direct with your society any specific order for any number of men. " Yours truly, " G. E. BURNS, Special Agent." . A number of Italians gave their evidence before me showing that Cordasco de- manded a fee of $1 for registering the name of the applicant, as labourer, and $10 as foreman or interpreter; that he subsequently demanded from the labourer $2 to $3 as a further fee before he would recommend them for employment; after receiving these sums of money he did not get employment for them, and refused to repay the sums so obtained. A number of these men had to bring suit against him for the re- turn of moneys so paid, and under a judgment he was compelled to repay certain of these sums. Mr. Cordasco in his evidence with reference to the receipt of these sums of money admitted same. It was admitted that there were at least sixty-three foremen since the beginning of November, 1903, up to May or June, 1904, the greater number of whom paid $10 each; and that there were 3,916 men registered, of whom 400 paid jj>4 each. Cordasco in his evidence stated : " The men paid me $1 in December, $2 in March ; later on in June they came along and wanted to get registered, and they forced me to take more money." ' Q. You were making out a statement last night as to the number of men who registered with you this year ? A. My bookkeeper has got it, I think. < Q. From the statement that you produced, Mr. Cordasco, there appears to be sixty-three foremen ? A. Well, yes. ' Q. Have these men all paid ? A. Three have not paid. 1 Q. If all had paid it would be $630 ? A. I received $10 unless for three men, this would be $600. ' Q. Then I see 3,916 men, is that right ? A. It is right. ' Q. You received from these $5,656 ? A. Yes. * Do you know what rate they paid ? A. Some $1 and some $3. ' Q. How much did you charge the Canadian Pacific Railway ? A. I did not receive anything, I did not care. ' Q. You charged $5 a day when you were sending them out before this arrange- ment ? A. Yes, if I did a full day's work. ' Q. Is that statement of the charge at $5 during last year up to the end of De- cember, 1903 ? A. Yes. * Q. You received from the C.P.R. $1,456 up to the end of last year, how much this year ? A. Only a few dollars for January, February and March, I cannot say whether it was $400 or more. ' ' Q. Now, you say there are over 404 paid $4 who had been registered twice, have they work yet ? A. No. 1 Q. You got their $4 ? A. Yes, I am going to give them back. ' Q. You got $3 from each of these men between the 5th and 12th July, you got over $600 from these men ? A. If they want the money back I will give it to them to-night. f Q. Mr. Cordasco, how much money have you received from all those you have employed ? A. Ganna has got the figures, he has done my work, and I will take what he says/ 367.; 3i" REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDVv'ARD VII., A. 1905 Mr. Ganna gave the following evidence : * Q. Do you know how much Cordasco makes in a year out of these people ? A. I cannot tell you, because I have not been with him a year; for about six months I can say about $7,000. ' Q. Out of. men for six months ? A. No, out of the men altogether, out of the men registered now. You have that list, the amount is $6,121. 1 Q. How much from the Canadian Pacific Railway during the same months ? A. That changes every month, some times $270, sometimes $300, I think in July about $600, because 300 have left for work, and they had some provisions. ' Q. How much would that be in addition to the $6,121 ? A. $1 for each man. ' Q. How many for six months this year ? A. Of this year, $727. ' Q. How many steamship tickets from Italy for these men ? A. I think about 125 from Italy, and he gets $7. 1 Q. That is only one company, .how much from every company? A. About 105 or $735. ' Q. In connection with these men he therefore makes pretty nearly $10.000 a year on them ? A. In one year ? I know only these months. ' Q. Well, then, from October to October ? A. I suppose so. ' Q. That $20 referred to in Franco's letter was received by him because he wanted a position as foreman ? A. Yes. ' Q. How high does Mr. Cordasco go in his demands for money for getting posi tions as foremen? A. Nothing, he wrote himself and sent $20 instead of $10 because he hoped to get work before some others." In addition to the sums charged by Cordasco to these Italian labourers he was authorized by the Canadian Pacific Railway to supply them with food on their journey from Montreal to their destination, he received $5 per day for every day that he worked for the Canadian Pacific Railway, whether for looking after Italians or other work including the obtaining and forwarding of the provisions. He charged up the pro- visions to the company, who in turn charged them up against the men pro rata, and deducted same out of their first wages, paying these sums so charged by Cordasco to him. In connection with these charges the following evidence was given : Mr. Skinner, who is labour agent for the Canadian Pacific Railway, and had charge under the superintendence of Mr. Burns, of the employment of all Italians, certifies the accounts of Cordasco from month to month. He gave the following evidence : ' Q. In addition to that, I see he supplies Italians going a distance with provisions ? A. He does. 1 Q. These provisions are charged against their wages ? A. Yes. * Q. Who checks the accounts for such supplies ? A. I check them. 1 Q. How do you check them, what means do you take to see they are correct ? A. Well, the first thing I do is to see whether I think he has supplied enough or too much stuff for the parties leaving, and then I look over the prices charged for each item. 1 Q. You look over the prices charged for each item, and ascertain if they are cor- rect, by what means ? A. The only way to ascertain, I judge. ' Q. You understand he just charges the amount he pays for these articles ? A. I understand the articles are bought from him. He adds an amount for what he thinks a fair price. ' Q. Are the articles bought from him? A. The articles are bought from him. ' Q. On your order ? A. On Mr. Burns' order. ' Q. You pay him for getting these things ? A. Oh, no, he is not paid for getting tkem. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION XXXV SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. ' Q. Would you look at the items of March 15, 1904 (hands him Cordasco's ac- count) ? A. March 15, yes, I see. ' Q. Services rendered in sending provisions to Westward train ; it is O.K.'d, that is a $5 item ? A. That is not for Italian labour. ' Q. It is for Chinese ; it is a charge against you, the only difference is that you lid not get it back from the Chinese, but you did from the Italians. He charged $5 for that day. $54.05 for these provisions ; look at the account. ? A. Yes, $54.05. 1 Q. He bought them for $37.95 the same day ? A. I am not aware. ' Q. There is an account produced by Mr. Cordasco ; $16.10 made on that little item of $37.95, What means have you taken to find out what were the prices of the articles supplied to the Italians and Chinese ? A. I have taken no means, I havo looked at Cordasco's account. ' Q. Without knowing whether they were reasonable or not? A. I just went on my own judgment. 1 Q. Look at the April account you passed. What is the charge he makes there for dipping men ? A. Charges $5. 1 Q. For that he gives provisions on that date ? A. He only gets $5 for shipping and loading provisions. ' Q. That is all he is entitled to, that is bread for your men. Now, what is the account for provisions ? A. $152. ' Q. As you see (showing account) the original cost of these various items was $94.72 ? A. I never saw that before. ' Q. But could you not have found it out from any person doing business in Mont- real. These Italians had to pay $152 for what was purchased for $94.72? A. At the same time I gathered from this statement that they were not paying any more than they would be obliged to pay for themselves. ' Q. The Canadian Pacific Railway were paying Mr. Cordasco for acting in the interest of these Italians. They were your, employees; now, what means did you take, as a servant of the Canadian Pacific Railway to find out that you were getting articles at the lowest price for these men ? A. In reply, I can only say I scanned Cordasco'g account item by item, and if the items were reasonable I passed them. ' Q. Without knowing what they .could be bought for elsewhere? A. Yes. ' Q. So you see he gets $5 a day, and how much from the unfortunate people who have to pay for these supplies going out west ? : A. $152 less $94.72, $57.28 he gets out of that. ' Q. Don't you think that is a little more than fair, he is your servant, he has to supply these articles, has he not? A. I quite see the point. ' Q. Why should you allow him to make money out of these men ? A. It is not a great hardship, the cost to the men.' In. explanation of these accounts Mr. Burns in his evidence stated : ' As regards sardines, I went into the matter once, I think last year. I spoke to Cordasco. He admitted having charged too much, and he put the price at ten cents, which gave still a good margin. I do not know what he charged; I did not care, ho was looking after the matter, and if he was not giving away the goods for nothing it would simply mean he had a good business contract, and the cost of the goods supplied by him to the Canadian Pacific Railway I had nothing to do with except, to go ovar his accounts and to see the retail prices at the grocery stores were not overstepped.' ' Q. You pay Cordasco $5 a day during the time he is employed in any work for the Canadian Pacific Railway? A. Yes. 1 Q. The work consisted of getting provisions for these men when necessary ? A. That is separate. ' Q. He charged $5 for supplying provisions ? A. I had noticed it in the account*. xxrvi REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 'Q. Supposing now that instead of Cordasco getting provisions you got them, would you charge a profit ? A. None whatever. ' Q. He is, in your position, gets paid for that work?; A. I do not understand it that way. ' Q. That is, he not only gets $5, but charges a profit on everything he buys? A. Not the Canadian Pacific Railway. ' Q. It is far worse if it is not the Canadian Pacific Railway ; it is against these unfortunate Italians who do not know anything about prices? A. I do not know if the prices are not excessive. ' Q. There should nojfc be one cent profit if Cordasco was paid for the service ? A. That is one way of looking at it. I always regarded that as his prerogative. ' Q. You were quite willing that these Italians should pay double prices for these things ? A. He has a right to make some profit. ' Q. There is an account for $152, how much did he actually pay ; the statement is added there ? A. $94.72. ' Q. Now, then, supposing we pass from them to the Chinese, the Canadian Pacific Railway would pay for the provisions for the Chinese out of their own pocket, is not that so? A. Yes, sir. 1 Q. The provisions are charged against the Chinese on the same principle ? A. Yes. ' Q. You pay him $5 per day for providing these provisions, look up the amount if you are not sure? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many hundred dollars during the year has Mr. Cordasco made in this manner? A. I would like to look over the accounts for information. ' Q. Will you kindly go over these accounts and find out what he has charged for provisions to Chinese and Italians and for services? A. I will, Your Honour. K- * * * * * ' Q. Have you gone over the statement for the last year to see what is the total amount charged for provisions? A, I have taken all of 1903 and 1904 to date. *" Q. From the beginning of 1903 to June, 1904, how much does it amount to? A. $6,453.41. ' Q. Would that be paid by Italians only or by Italians and Chinese ? A. , This would be by Italians and Chinese ; the latter does not amount to a great deal. 1 Q. Have you gone over the profits that were charged on these provisions by Cor- dasco ? A. As far as I could. ' Q. What would be the percentage ? A. About 63 per cent. ( Q. What would that amount to on the whole ? A. About $3,600 or more. ' Q. Nearly $4,000 ? A. $3,800 ; I will go over it again.' Mr. Burns in his examination with reference to the payments made by the labour- ers to Cordasco stated that he understood Cordasco received $10 from each foreman, and from $1 to $2 from each labourer; that he investigated certain complaints of greater charges than these having been made, but that he believed Cordasco in prefer- ence to those making the complaints. The evidence shows, however, that Mr. Burns is not candid in his answers relating to this matter. On March 21, 1904, Mr. Cor- dasco wrote Mr. Burns a letter in which he stated : ' I charged Italian labourers some- times $3, sometimes $2, sometimes $1, sometimes nothing; same thing for Italian inter- preters, according to reason. I charge each of them from nothing up to $15, according to ability of them if they are able to pay.' Mr. Burns wrote a letter to Mr. Timmerman, general superintendent at Toronto, on the 17th May, 1904, in which Mr. Burns stated: " Under the present condition, starting from this year, ajl Italians may be en- gaged through Cordasco's office for the Canadian Pacific Railway without the payment ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION xxxvii SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. of a single cent, but in the past as indicated in Cordasco's letter on April 29th he has not been out for his health, and I have no doubt has exacted his fee as is usual in such cases not only in Montreal, but all over the country, as probably you are aware." Mr. Burns made a new arrangement with Cordasco in April, 1904, in consequence of a suit against the railway company brought by some Italian labourers for the return of the amounts charged by Cordasco, in which Judge Curran of Montreal held that the company were liable owing to the fact that their agent, Cordasco had received the moneys and had not given employment. The new arrangement was that Cordasco was not to charge .the men anything whatever, but that the company would pay him the sum of $1 for each man he employed for them. Although this arrangement was made in April, Cordasco still continued up to the commencement of the inquiry to collect up to $4 from each labourer, and this with the knowledge of Mr. Burns. The evidence shows that Mr. Dini charged $1 only for obtaining employment for men, and nothing for foremen. Other intelligence agents charged from $2 to $3 for obtaining men, and no charge where employment was not given. It was also shown by evidence that Cordasco charged a fee from the labourers on giving them a free pas? provided by the company. Results of the Immigration upon Canadian Workingmen. The evidence shows that the arrival of such a large number of immigrants inter- fered with the wages of the working men in Montreal. Mr. Honore Gervais, member of Parliament, representing the Division of St. James, Montreal, being asked what in his opinion would be the results on resident labourers in Montreal of the bringing in of such a large number of labourers stated : " I would think it would be most detrimental to the interests of resident labourers, because having to accept fixed salaries they have to make a scale that would cover tha cost of living, and by the coming of these Italian labourers in such large numbers with- out a moment's warning to our shores, the scale of wages is destroyed because there aro too many men willing to work at reduced rates, and thus our resident labourers ar3 bound to suffer. Accordingly, on account of the sudden fall 01 decrease in wages gen- erally, it is most detrimental to the workmen of Canada, to the workmen of Montreal, that at any moment some ten thousand men shall be thrown on our shores and come in competition with our workmen resident in Montreal." Mr. Hannaford, engineer of the Montreal Street Kailway Company, stated that they had 300 Italians in their service, and that they paid the ordinary labourers 12} cents per hour, and that the sub-foremen received as high as $1.37 a day, that the rate of wages in Montreal to ordinary labourers in other departments is $1.50 per day, that they have no trouble in obtaining labourers; and in answer to the question "Well, you can get any number you wish at $1.25 per day," he replied, " They come to us, we do not have to lock for them." Mr. J. B. Mack, upon being asked : " Will you state your opinion of the effect on the scale of wages in a city like Montreal, caused by the bringing in of large numbers of foreign labourers at one time,' answered, ' The effect of bringing in large numbers of foreign labourers, in my opinion, would be a reduction in wages, and probably pro- Xixviii REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 longed hours of labour. When the labour market is flooded wages are not liable to increase, rather to decrease, and it is a benefit to capitalists or companies who employ large numbers of unskilled labourers to have a large immigration in order to have work performed at less cost/ ' Q. Can you tell the commission of certain classes of labour wherein the wages did go down ? A. I have been told that in various classes wages have been reduced.' Mr. Charles Hodgson Osier, superintendent of mains and services in the Montreal Light, Heat and Power Company, stated that out of 250 or 260 men employed by tlio company 100 were Italians. 1 Q. You remember the influx of Italian labour last April and May? A. Yes. ' Q. Would that affect the scale of labour for labourers ? A. Yes, I think it would. ' Q. These Italians only received from $1.25 to $1.35 a day ? A. Yes. f Q. Are there others besides Italians only receiving that amount? A. Yes, quite a number. Q. Who are they ? A. Well, some English and French speaking men. Q. You get as many men as you require on your work without difficulty '? A, We have done it so far, we have had no trouble at all; we had a little trouble. last year, but we increased the wages to $1.45. We got lots of men this year at $1.25, whereas we had to pay $1.45 last year. Q. I suppose there are the same number employed this year as last ? A. No, I have nearly double the quantity this year. Q. The wages then dropped 20 cents ? A. Yes, there was a large influx of men } and we took advantage of labour as it came in.' Finding's and Recommendations. I am of opinion the evidence fully establishes the fact that the large number of Italian immigrants who arrived in Montreal in the early part of 1904 were induce i to come to this country through the efforts put forward by Mr. Cordasco representing himself to be the sole agent of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and requiring 10,000 men, offering them good wages and immediate employment, and that these inducements were made by means of advertisements inserted in La Patria Italiana and Corriere del Canada, two newspapers published in the Italian language in Mont- real, which he forwarded to Italy, and through the assistance of steamship agents m Italy with whom he corresponded on the subject. Mr. Burns and Mr. Cordasco were most intimate in their dealings in connection with the employment of Italian laborers. This was so noticeable as to cau^e adverse criticism of Mr. Burns, it being claimed by some that he was financially interested with Mr. Cordasco in the employment of such laborers ; this was denied by both. In my opinion, Mr. Burns had control of Mr. Cordasco's actions and*vvas well aware of the sums that were being paid by the men employed for the Canadian Pacific Rail- way Company as also for the provisions supplied, but instead of preventing the col- lection of these extortionate sums, he refused to interfere when requested to do so. Mr. Burns states that in December, 1903, he was told in New York by an agent that 10,000 men were being brought into the country for the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway, and that he believed this to be the fact. If he were so informed, he could by inquiry and the use of the most ordinary intelligence, have ascertained this to be a ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. false statement. Whether it was in consequence of this statement or not, Mr. Cor- dasco appears to have at that time commenced his efforts as above described to obtain 10,000 men, and this without having any agreement with the Canadian Pacific Kail- way Railway Company or any other employers of labour for the employment of men. In my opinion, he so acted with the knowledge that these men must apply to him before obtaining employment on the Canadian Pacific Railway, and with the object of compelling- them to pay him the large sums it is shown he received. His dealing with these unfortunate men after their arrival in Montreal in de- manding and receiving money on the promise of immediate employment, and after- wards refusing to return same when he could not furnish them with employment, indicates that his main object in inducing these immigrants to come to Montreal was lor the purpose mentioned, and this he was enabled to do by Mr. Burns refusing to employ any Italians unless through him. By obtaining steamship agencies he expected to be the better able to carry out his object; in obtaining these agencies he was assisted by Mr. Burns. His evidence as to B Dccncelli's dealings above set forth indicates the manner In which he intended to use his position as steamship agent. In my opinion, the city of Montreal should pass a by-law similar to that enforced in Toronto respecting intelligence offices, which provides that every person who keeps an intelligence office for registering the names and residences of and giving informa- tion to or procuring services labourers, workmen, clerks or employees for employers in want of the same, or for registering the names and residences of and giving information to or procuring employment for domestic servants, labourers, workmen, clerks or other persons seeking employment should procure a license before being permitted to carry on that business. The by-law provides as follows : 'INTELLIGENCE OFFICES. 19. ' Every keeper of an intelligence office shall keep posted up in a conspicuous place in his office, as shall be determined by the chief constable, his license, and also a copy of sections 19 to 23, inclusive, of this by-law, which shall be supplied to the licensee by the chief constable at the time of issuing the license . 20. ' Every person licensed to keep an intelligence office shall keep, in a conspicuous place on the outside thereof, a sign showing his name and indicating his office hours. 21. ' Every person licensed to keep an intelligence office shall keep a book, which shall be supplied to the licensee by the chief constable at the time of issuing the license, in which the licensee shall enter, at the time of application, the name and residence of any person who may apply for employment or who may make application to be sup- pled with any clerk, servant, labourer, workman other employee, and also any and all sums of money which may be .received from any person for any such service ; and such book shall at all times be open to the inspection of the chief constable, or any inspector of police, or any other person in the employ of the police commissioners. 22. * Every person licensed to- keep an intelligence office shall be entitled to receive at the time of the application the following fees and no more : < (1.) From every male applying for place or employment as servant, or labourer, or workmen, a sum not exceeding 50 cents; as clerk or skilled employee, coachman, butler, rockman, timekeeper or teamster having a team, $1 ; 3d REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VI!., A. 1905 ' (2.) From every female applying for place or employment as domestic servant, or person employed by the day, a sum not exceeding 25 cents ; as governess, clerk or skilled employee, housekeeper, or cook, $1; ' (3) From every person making application for a male domestic servant, labourer or workman, a sum not exceeding 50 cents ; for a clerk or other skilled employee, coach- man, butler, rockman, timekeeper, or teamster having a team, $1 ; 1 (4.) From every person making application for a female domestic servant, or person employed by the day, a sum not exceeding 50 cents; for a governess, clerk or other 'skilled employee, housekeeper or cook, $1 ; 1 for which sum a receipt shall be given at the time of making application to the person so applying; and in the event of no place or employment being obtained as applied for, or no employee being obtained as applied for, within one week from the date of appli- cation, one-half the fees so paid shall be refunded on the demand of the person produc- ing the receipt. 23. ' Every person licensed to keep an intelligence office who shall directly or indirect- ly, or through any person, make or use any improper device, deceit, false representation, false pretences, or any imposition whatsoever, for any improper purpose, or for the pur- pose of obtaining a fee, money or gratuity, or other thing of value from any customer, person or patron, or who shall be guilty of extortion, or of taking or demanding any article or thing, or any fees except those authorized by this by-law, shall be subject to the penalties of this by-law. PENALTY. ' Except as hereinafter provided, any person convicted of a breach of any of the provisions of this by-law shall forfeit and pay, at the discretion of the convicting magis- trate, a penalty not exceeding the sum of fifty dollars for each offence, exclusive of costs ; and in default of payment of the said penalty and costs forthwith, the said pen- alty and costs, or costs only, may be levied by distress and sale of the goods and chattels of the offender ; and in case of there being no distress found out of which such penalty can be levied, the convicting magistrate may commit the offender to the common jail of the city of Toronto, with or without hard labour, for any period not exceeding six calendar months, unless the said penalty and costs be sooner paid.' Mr. Gervais, M.P., in his evidence, stated : ' The class of immigrants that Canada wants to be brought here are picked up by the proper officials of the Dominion government, by the proper agent of our govern- ment, and I do not recognize the right of any private individual to speak in the namo of Canada to the foreign labourer, and induce them to come here. We have our proper officials, who will not deceive the foreign labourer, and consequently, I would say that these private enterprises bringing poor men to Canada should be checked. Special legislation should be incorporated defining those who shall have the right to represent Canada abroad, because the good name of Canada and the credit may be imperilled.' Upon being asked the question, ' Have you given this subject enough at- tention to state definitely what in your opinion such amendments to the law should be ? ' He replied, ' Well, yes, we should have some clauses inserted in our immigra- tion laws, for example, empowering our quarantine officials to examine what is the standing of the immigrants coming into Canada, and. before they have been brought to Canada, and rejecting those who are unfitted, and at the same time making it necessary for the speculators who have been deceiving these people to send them back. 7 Count Mazza, in his evidence, was asked : ' Q. Then, it is you* opinion that there should be some system to prevent the in- discriminate immigration ? A. I told' you my idea is not to allow these private individuals to make a business of that, and to prohibit such action.' ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION H SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. I am of opinion that legislation in the line indicated by Mr. Gervais should be enacted. Conclusion. I am pleased to report that as a result of my inquiry I have received information from Mr. Cordasco that he has repaid the sum of $2,017.25 of the moneys received by him from the Italian labourers, although in his letter to me of August 2, 1904, he states : ' This was the first year I instituted the system of registration, and I may add that it will be the last, as I intend to carry on my business without registering any men whatever.' I have much pleasure in acknowledging the valuable services rendered- during the inquiry by Mr. H. M. Mowat, K.C., counsel for the government and of Mr. J. M. Viglino, Italian interpreter, and of Mr. R. Candori, the secretary of the Italian Immi- p-ration Aid Society. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, JNO. WINCHESTER, Commissioner. 4-5 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. A. 1905 APPENDIX MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 4-5 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36fc A. 1905 OPENING DAY'S PROCEEDINGS. MONTREAL, July 21, 1904. PRESENT : His Honour JUDGE WINCHESTER, Commissioner. H. M. Mo WAT, Esq., K.C., Counsel for the Dominion Government. JEROME IXTERNOSCIA, Counsel for the Italian Immigration Aid Society. A. J. WALSH, Counsel for Antonio Cordasco. The COMMISSIONER Gentlemen, under this commission, issued to me on June 30, 1904, and signed by the Deputy Governor General, Mr. Justice Robert Sedgewick, I now open the investigation into the question of the immigration of Italian labourers to the city of Montreal. The Commission is read by His Honour. The COMMISSIONER. This inquiry is now open, and I will proceed to examine wit- nesses. Mr. MOWAT. As in another branch of a matter referred to Your Honour, I appear for the government of Canada in this branch of inquiry. There are two other gentle- men here, Mr. Jerome Internoscia, on behalf of the Italian Immigration Aid Society, and Mr. A. J. Walsh, who is watching the case on behalf of Mr. Antonio Cordasco, As a matter of historical evidence, I proposed to call before Your Honour at first two gentlemen who would have shown the embarrassment caused to the municipal autho- rities here by the large number of Italians brought in during the month of April last, and also as to the distress created among them by the fact of their being penniless and in having work promised them. These two gentlemen are Mr. Laporte, Mayor of Montreal, and Mr. Honore Gervais, M.P., but unfortunately both these gentlemen, through press of other most important business, are unable to attend for the moment, and with Your Honour's permission, I will ask to postpone calling them until Saturday next. Mr. ALBERTO DINI, being sworn : By Mr. Mowat : Q. How long have you resided in Montreal ? A. About. 32 years. Q. How long have you been conducting, among other things, an employment agency for labourers ? A. I think, about ten years. Q. I see in this copy of La Patria Italiana your advertisement. This is it ? (Hands paper.) A. (Looking at paper.) Yes. Q. You can tell me whether or not this would be a good translation into English of th% : ' Great number of labourers required ; work guaranteed at good wages. Apply to Dini's bank, 2026 St. Catherine's street, Montreal' ? A. Yes. Well, look here, some employees from the paper came home one night and asked me. Q. And you were also advertising the same thing in the papers in Italy ? A. No, sir. Q. There was another advertisement put in by you. This is the translation I have got ; you can tell me whether it is right or not : l For the coming spring. Mr. 2 PEPORT Or ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Dini announces that there will be a very large demand for perhaps 10,000 labourers for the coming spring. Italian workingmen know that Mr. Dini is the representative of very many construction companies and also are aware of the proverbial integrity with which he has in the past proven, during the many years he has resided in Mont- real. Every one who wishes to be assured of work at good wages from the spring to the coming winter can go from the present time and be inscribed at the banking office of Mr. Dini, 2026 St. Catherine street' ? A. What paper; I have put it in no paper. That is all I know. Q. This is an advertisement in La Patria Italiana; that is your name? A. I. do not know who put it in. Q. See there is a similar advertisement put i by Mr. Cordasco ? A. I cannot say ; a man coming home, employed by La Patria Italiana say, you will see Cordasco wants about 10,000 men, and I told do what you like. I do not give number; the paper come out and I see the advertisement. Q. It was not by your authorization, you did not authorize it? A. No, sir. What papers say that? Q. La Patria Italiana. A. Same paper? Q. Yes. What excuse had you, Mr. Dini, for giving an advertisement calling for 10,000 Italians? A. I have not told to put in 10,000. I told you they will reply to Cordasco's advertisement. I never told to put 10,000 or 5,000. Q. What was Cordasco's advertisement ? A. I think about 10,000. Q. I suppose you wanted to show you were. not a lesser Italian agent? A. I think they were on the same list. Q. You did not want to admit that you were a less extensive agent than he was? A. I do not understand. Q. You were just as good an employment agent?: A. I think so; I think I am better. Q. So far as numbers, you were not going to be behind? A. No. Q. But you had not any particular works for railway or construction companies in your mind? A. No, sir. Q. Are you also vice-consul ? A. No. Q. Were you at one time vice-consul here? A. No. Q. You also keep a bank ? A. An employment bureau or steamship agency. Q. How many Italians do you think you have succeeded in bringing here? A. I did not bring any at all. Q. In the last 10 years? A. I do not bring them, they come themselves. Q. Through your advertisements, your instrumentality, through your efforts, through your advertisements? A. I never advertise at all. Q. Mr. Cordasco says he brought in 12,000 in three years? A. Cordasco? I do not know what he do. I have not bring men here at all. Q. Had you agents in Europe? A. No, sir. Q. Are you sure of that? A. I am sure. Q. Did you not inquire in England or in Italy, had you any correspondents? A. No, sir. I have no correspondents at all, by that line of American. Q. Now, try and remember ? A. I am sure I tell the Italians some lots of time to be very like going west, probably will be here, and I have looked out for lots of men to come, but I think three or four years, in 1898, about 5,000 or 6,000 Italians come from Chiasso. Q. Are you agent for any steamship companies in Italy? A. Well, I got agency in New York for North German Lloyds, Hamburg-American, Anchor Line, and two Italian lines, one of them called La Veloce and two others. Q. In Barcelona? A. No. Q. They call at ports in Italy? A. Yes, sir. Q. I want you to be sure about your answer. I do not want you to answer hastily to me. Are you an agent for emigration societies in the old country, such as the ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 3 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Anonymous Emigration Society called ' La Svizzera/ with headquarters at Chiasso, Switzerland? A. No, sir. Q. What is this ? A. I tell you what this mean. Q. Read and translate into English. (Hands him document.) A. That is my name. On the one side is the following: < Signor Albert'Dini, ufficio di collocamento, N. 2026 St. Catharine Street, Montreal.' And on the other is : ' Sig. Alberto Dini, volgiate ben accogliere il porgitore del presente, raccomandandoui di valere allo stesso in quanto gli potesse occorrere. Ringraziandovi dell'appoggio che presterete al med- esimo, con ogni stima ci rassegniamo. Societa Anonima d'Emigrazione, " La Svizzera." Translation being as follows : ' Mr. Alberto Dini Will you be good enough to receive the bearer of this and render him such assistance as you may be able to ? Thanking you for any trouble you may take in the matter and with every mark of esteem. ' The Anonymous Emigration Society, " LA SVIZZERA." Q. That is given to persons? A. Given to persons coming from Chiasso to Mont- real. Q. That is, they are recommended to you by the * Societa Anomina d'Emigra- zione' at Chiasso? A. Yes. Q. What you told me a minute ago was hardly correct; you have given authority for these to be given to introduce men to you? A. Well, sometimes in the late sum- mer labour is very scarce, and they want to go around to Quebec. When the ship arriving in Quebec and get labourers and he write to me. He say I know you have a good name, and if I like I recommend to you. Q. And that is what this card is for? A. Yes. Q. Have you communication with this Italian- Immigration Aid Society? A. I am vice-president. Q. Has Count Mazza any connection with it? A. Not as a member. By the Commissioner: Q. Where did this card come from? A. From Chiasso. Q. How did it get to Chiasso? A. I do not know; probably the society gave to him. Q. What society ? A. I never print it. I have no man there at all. Q. You think they go to the expense of printing the cards just to please the men ? A. I cannot say. Q. Did you not print this in Canada? A. No. Q. Did you not send this over to Chiasso? A. No. Q. Do you know any one in Chiasso? A. Well, I see one man when I was in Italy last year. I say to one or two agents, if you send these men recommend to me. I can promise nothing if men come to Canada otherwise. I go and see that man you consult in Dolovico. I saw him and another in Chiasso. Q. Was that Ludwig? A. Yes. Q. Is that a steamship agent there? A. I was five months in Switzerland. Q. What agreement did you enter into with Ludwig about bringing men over from Italy? A. No agreement. I told him just a few words. He says: ' Dini you are here I am glad to meet you. I think you do the best you can for the men. I give them your address because the men complain when arrive in Montreal somebody else take them.' He says, he repeats, he complains, and that is reason why I will send to you because there is no complaint at all. Q. How long ago was that? A. In 1902. Q. About eighteen months ago ? A. Yes ; in April. Q. How many men came across since this was reported to him ? A. I cannot say. Q. Well, you have an idea? A. I do not think there should be many coming to see me. 86* 4 4 REPORT OF ROTAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. But you can say about how many; were there two or three hundred? A. I don't think more than two hundred. Q. When do they come? A. Generally come in spring and summer. Q. How many this last spring? A. This spring? Q. Yes? A. I cannot tell. Q. Do you keep a record of all men coming? A. No; men come and show me card ; I say I will see if I can get work. I keep no. recorpl. Q. How much did you pay for printing this card? A. Never paid anything. Q. Where was it printed? A. I do not know. Q. Did you not bring these cards over to Italy with you? A. No, sir. Q. Nor any card at a later date? A. No, sir. Q. Did you send them over? A. No, sir. Q. Then how many men came to you this spring from Chiasso ? A. I cannot tell exactly; probably 100, probably 200. Q. Perhaps 200? A. I do not think more. Q. Have you the names of those who came to you? A. No; I do not take the names at all. Q. You do not take the names down at all? A. No, sir. Q. How many Italians were there in Montreal last May? A. I cannot say. Q. Well, you have a pretty good idea. I only want to know how many you sup- pose? A. Arrived from Italy? Q. I do not care from where ? A. Some say 5,000, some say 10,000. I do not know. I never counted. I do not think there were more than 6,000 or 7,000. Q. They were all Italians; had no work? A. No work. Q. Were there many of them that had nothing to eat? A. Well, I cannot say; they would be very few. Q. How many ? A. I do not know. Q. One thousand? A. No, sir. I do not think over 100. I think everyone had money. Q. You think all 'had? A. Yes. Q. How many were helped by the city authorities? A. Well, I do not' know. Q. How many did you help ? A. None at all. Q. You were getting work for them? A. Yes. Q. You never gave them a loaf of bread? A. Sometimes I thought necessary to help, gave 25 cents. Q. You have been keeping an employment bureau for the last ten years. Will you tell me exactly how that bureau is carried on; how do you conduct your business? A. I have got an employment office, bank is name known to Italians, and supposing an immigrant he comes- Q. Any conditions? What do the immigrants do? A. Nothing; he come there and ask have any work. Q. What do you do then? A. I tell him yes if I have work. I try and send him, and if not he have to wait. Q. How do you find out if there is any work? A. I write to several, to con- tractors, to employers, to Grand Trunk if they want labourers, and if they want s-nip them. Q. Have you any of these letters you wrote to the Grand Trunk ? A. Well, letter not here; I have one or two letters here. Q. Let me see them; have you them? A. I write my friends in department, and department has write to me. Q. This is a letter from Mr. Stephens, Montreal. October 7, 1903, he writes to you: ' DEAR SIR, Your letter of 23rd instant to Mr. Hobson has been referred to me for a reply, and I have placed the same on file for reference when construction begins. At ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 5 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. present we are engaging nothing but engineers on location, and of course it is too early to consider the question of Italian labour for construction purposes. 'Yours truly, ' J. E. STEPHENS/ Q. So you did not get an order? A. Yes, sometimes I got a little order for 25 or 40. Q. On last November you applied to be appointed labour agent for the Grand Trunk? A. Yes. Q. And Mr. Hays writes to Mr. Stephens that it is too early to employ, an agent. This is dated November 5, 1903, that is with reference to the Grand Trunk Pacific. So nothing' came out of that? A. No. Q. Do you represent any contractors? A. No, I got friends like D. J. McDonald; * lie is a friend of mine. Q. Let me understand how many contractors do you represent A. I cannot say about all. Q. How many? A. 10 or 20. When the contractors want labour, they got my address, they write or telegraph to me if I have any Italians to send them. Q. How many have you sent out this spring? A. I think about 1,000. Q. Where? A. All over. Q. Have you got a list of the numbers? A. I don't got any list. I will make a list of the men I send out. I put all the names on it and give it to the foremen who go with the men. Q. How much do you charge for getting employment? A. $1. Q. Who pays the dollar? A. The labourers. Q. How much do you charge the foremen ? A. Nothing. Q. Why, how is this they get better pay? A. I think the foreman has lots of trouble to get men, to try to have men, I never charge a cent for the foremen. Q. The only charge you make is $1 for the labourers? A. Yes, sir. Q. How much do you charge the contractors? A. Nothing. Q. Nothing at all? A. No, sir. Q. Can you tell me how much you received this spring? A. VVell, I sent out 1,000, I make $1,000. Q. Up to the middle of July? A. Before July. Q. When did you start sending them out? A. I think in May and June. Q. And you have met other men from May to the present time? A. Yes. Q. How many others are there in Montreal engaged in this work of employing Italians ? A. I don't know, there are five or six. Q. Will you give me the names ? A. One Italian. Q. Give me Italians ? A. Cordasco. Q. We all know Cordasco, anybody else ? A. Another Italian somewhere, but don't know his name. Q. What about Monetta ? A. I think some foremen are engaging labourers besides bureau. Q. Never mind the foremen, I want the bureaus ? A. I don't know name. Q. You don't know the bureaus ? A. Well, one in St. James street, near St. Peter street. Another on McGill. street. Q. Do you know the names ? A. No, sir. Q. You are the oldest one in the city? A. No. Q. You do not know the names of the owner ? A. I do not care about the English. Q. I meant an Italian? A. There is one opened this summer, I think Monetta. Q. I mentioned his name, in Montreal? A. Yes. Q. Who is the man representing the Italian paper that came to you and asked you for an advertisement ? A. Di Rosa. Q. Where does he live? A. He left the paper, I don't know if he is in town. 6 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Is he the proprietor of the paper? A. No, he is employed by the paper. Q. Do you know where he lives ? A. No, sir. Q. What large book did you produce to me the other day? A. That is for addresses. You see when I send men out I give envelopes No. 8 and No. 7. No. 7 is addressed to my care, and if used by the person and letter come to me, and if coming to the country I will change the address and I will send it to the country. Q. You have a printed envelope and then you have a smaller one ? A. Yes, No. 7 and No. 8. Q. (Judge looks at envelope). This is No. 7 (hands to witness)? A. Yes, sir, I give it to the labourer. Q. You give it to the labourer ? A. Yes, sir. Q. There is a blank space above here? A. Yes, after letter come to my office 1 put place where he lives in the country and I mail it again. Q. Where does this letter go, to Italy? A. Yes, sir. Q. In letter? A. In letter written by immigrant to family and he encloses this. Q. And family will write name above yours and send it out and you get it and forward to the address of the labourer? A. When man goes to country, writes to me and give address. I put in book any change. He write, I change address. Q. This is No. 8 envelope? A. Yes. Q. Do you give this to the labourers, too ? A. Yes. Q. This large one they write to friends in Italy? A. Friends and 'family. Q. And enclose with their letter a No. 7 envelope ? A. Yes. Q. Is that all you do for the labourers' ? A. Yes. Q. And you receive all their letters in your bureau? A. Yes, and forward them if no call at all. Q. If the labourer does not call you forward ? A. You see some are here in town, they come themselves to get letter and other ones gone, but will write to me and I will address the letter to place where labourer is. Q. Do you give them any letter paper? A. No. Q. Any cards that you give them? A. No, sir. Q. Do you give them any small amounts? A. No, Q. How much do you charge these men for this work you do for their benefit? A. Nothing. Q. Nothing at all? A. Nothing at all. Q. The dollar covers that? A. Yes. Q. And do you say that you do not charge anything to each contractor or the per- son employing these men, or the company ? A. No, sir. Q. How many Italians are there without work in Montreal to-day? A. Well, I don't know there are many. 'I think, sir, there are very few. Q. 500 ? A. No, I cannot find even 100. Q. All gone" away ? A. All at work. I shipped 40 men last night, I have 40 to-night, I don't know whether I can get. I sent to Grand Trunk. Men leave the work here and men ask street car company $1.25 or leave and go to country. I don't think there are 100 men without work in town. Q. How many have you shipped out for the Gracd Trunk this year ? A. About 200. Q. How many for the Canadian Pacific Railway ? A. None I do not send for them, the Canadian Pacific Railway do not come to me at all. Q. Have you ever sent out any for them ? A. I have sent about two or three years ago. Q. That is the last you sent ? A. Yes. Q. Did you charge the Canadian Pacific Railway for sending men out ? A. No, sir. Q. Never? A. Never a cent. Q. Any charge to Grand Trunk for sending men out ? A.- No, sir. OA T ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 7 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Q. The only charge, you state, is $1 for the men and you find employment? A. Yes and not pay, sometimes I cannot charge $1. Late in summer when men are scarce I cannot charge a commission. I must send men for nothing. Q. How many of that class have you sent out for nothing ? A. Well a good many. Q. How many this year ? A. Well'this year I do not think I sent many, lots of time it is easy to get Italians. Q. Well it is hard work when you cannot get them ? A. Yes. Q. Who pays you for that hard work ? A. I never get paid. Q. For this hard work ? A. No, sir. Q. This is rather peculiar when you work harder you get less pay ? A. If man is scarce have asked you must pay $1. Q. How many came this year, 10,000 or 12,000 in May, how many came from the United States ? A. Well, I don't know. Q. About how many ? A. Vfery hard for me to give estimate, I don't have. From the old country there come, well, this spring not more than other years. Q. You think not ? A. No. Q. Where did the others come from ? A. From the States. Q. Which was the greater, from the States or from the Old Country ? Would there be more than one half from the States? A. Well, I cannot say. Q. Well, I know that you cannot give the exact number, but you are an intelli- gent man? A. There are lots come from the States for one year off railways in States. Q. Has work been stopped in the States? A. They. say so. Q. That is what they say? A. Yes. Q. Not much work this spring ? A. No. Q. What part of the States? A. Down from New York and Boston. Q. And other States? A. Yes. Q. Were there many of these men from the States who were in Canada before ? A. Every year they come from States and go back after work is done, and stay there during winter. I do not know. I think Canada is cold place. Q. Is it colder than New York? A. I think so. I think colder in Canada than in States. Q. Arid that is one reason why they go back for the winter? A. Yes. Q. And come back in spring? A. Sometimes come in spring. Come to Montreal I don't know. Q. Have you any agent in the United States? A. No, sir. Q. Nor any agents in Italy or Switzerland? A. No, sir. Q. Not even Ludwig ? A. No, sir. Q. He is your agent? A. No, sir. Q. How many men have you in your office to help you? A. I have two clerks; two of my own sons. Q. You do a larger bank business than most of them, do you? A. Well, Q. Not a bank but a steamship business? A. I get a good deal. Q. How many prepaid passages did you sell since last December? A. I think between 300 and 400. Q. Who paid these passages ? A. Friends, cousins of the men come to me and ask what is the price of prepaid passage, and I tell the price of every company, and says I will get from Gennaro Veloce and other line. Q. Any of your agents buy any ? A. No, sir. Q. None of your agents buy any? A. No, sir. Q. Do any of the contractors or any of the railway companies buy any? A. No, sir. Q. You get paid your commission from the steamship companies? A. Yes, sir. Q. Not from those who buy? A. No, sir. Q. Is this all you know about bringing in so many Italians this spring? Tell me all you know about cases ? A. Well, I do not know. Men come and want to bring family, wife and children; some send prepaid to friends and to cousins. 8 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. That is prepaid passages, but A. Yes. Q. But why did so many come to Montreal last March, April and May? A. I don't know. Q. Can't you give me an idea? A. I don't know. Q. Were you surprised at so many? A. 4 Well I think, I tell the truth, I do not think more than in 1903. Q. Not more than in previous years ? A. I don't think we have so very many, and work started late, and all the labourers be here in bunch in May. In year before I thing work started iii March and April. The Canadian Pacific Kailwny took as many as 1,000. Q. How many? A. Over 1,000. I saw no Italians at that time. When I returned I saw no person here. Q. No one here on May 1? A. No. Q. That was two years ago? A. Yes. Q. You think there were no more this spring than the spring of last year? A. That is my opinion. Q. And the reason why there were so many seen at one time was that they were all in a bunch, work was late, and the number of men sent out to work was not as large as usual? A. Yes. Q. There was a large number working last ^year ? A. Yes. Q. The works were all over the country going on extensively? A. It was very hard to get men. Q. You don't think that the reason was that extra efforts were being made to get men? A. I think that labourer write to friends and family in Italy the truth. As soon as I come here I get work at $1.50 and $1.75 per day. Q. How much do they get in the Old Country? A. I think 25 or 30 cents a day. Q. Living cheaper there than here ? A. Yes. Q. They would make more here than in Italy ? A. Yes. Q. A great many come out because friends write work was plentiful and wages good ? A. Yes. Q. What papers do you advertise in ? A. I do not advertise at all. Q. You advertised in a paper ? A. For the bank, yes. Q. Yes, and did you not advertise for labourers ? A. Yes. Q. I am not speaking about the number, but you advertise the bank as a labour bureau ? A. Yes. Q. You advertised in the Corriere del Canada ? I don't know, I got adver- tisement about two or three years ago. Q. Did you advertise in any Italian paper ? A. No. Q. New York paper ? A. Yes, I have a little advertisement in three or more newspapers. Q. When did you drop this advertisement? A. I think about two or three years ago. Q. Nothing this year ? A. No. Q. Or last fall ? A. No. By Mr. MOWAT. The advertisement in this paper, April 28 of this year, in La Patria Italiana, it says about the large number of labourers that is wanted. The COMMISSIONER. To witness: Do you remember that advertisement? A. In La P atria, I remember, yes. By Mr. Mowat: Q. These Italians came from Italy it seems, although they came from Quebec or Boston? A. They came from New York, one line from Boston. Now from Quebec I do not know, because I have no prepaid. OA T ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 9 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Q. What is the proportion? A. I think came very many from Boston and New York. Q. From Boston or New York? A. More in Boston than in New York. Q. From company in Quebec? A. Quebec. By Mr. Internoscia: Q. I wish to ask the witness as to his knowledge of the number of destitute Italians in Montreal. (To witness.) You have just stated that you were vice4 president of the Italian Aid Society. Do you remember the meeting of May 2, you were present? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember at that time it was discussed by the board of management that we began by giving 30c. to destitute Italians to go and get meals, and later on the number was increasing so that we reduced it to 15c., and after that the number was so increased who were destitute that only a loaf of bread could be given. You were present when it was said that there were over 200 or 300 with nothing to eat? A. I remember that, but in my opinion I tell if the labourers they have few dollars in pocket when we started to give bread to one to come before you gave proof have no money. You remember once you find four dollars and some cents in pocket and gave bread. By the Commissioner : Q. How many did you supply with food? A. He says 500. If I remember well, report say 500, something like this, poor men who got bread. By Mr. Internoscia : Q. Another question. You did not suggest at the time any means of finding the exact number of destitute Italians. Were they too numerous to find out, was it pos- sible to find out? A. Certainly it is my opinion; I tell in the meeting to try and have clerk to see hire boss who say you must offer four or five, dollars, and you will see if in en have no money. Q. Do you know, Mr. Dini, that this way of finding out was also tried, with the result that only five or six had money? A. Yes. By Mr. Walsh : Q. Do you know that a great majority of these labourers would not accept posi- tions out in the country, but were waiting? A. I think this spring every labourer would take any work ; not now but in the spring. Q. As a matter of fact, did not these Italian labourers prefer long wtfrk? A. They preferred C. P. E., to go west. Q. Did I understand you rightly in answering Mr. Internoscia a few moments ago, did you mean to say that the Italians were not poor, but were simply making believe? A. That is my opinion. Q. Did you learn of certain facts connected with these men? A. Certainly I remember I told about four weeks ago that I would give 500 bread. Men came to get bread, and one morning a man came to my office to^et bread and his wife come back again. I said what is the matter, she said my husband he come here for bread, he tell me had $2.65 and he was robbed, and I come to find. He had $65 in money. Q. Did you say that some of these people who went to get bread were not poor men? A. Certainly. Many of them seemed to have money to spend in saloons. By Mr. Internoscia : Q. Out of the 500 how many had money? Can you prove how many? A. I can- not prove, that is my opinion. 10 REPORT OF ROJAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Mr. RODOLPHE CANDORI, being sworn. By the Commissioner : Q. What position do you occupy? A. As agent or clerk in the Italian Immigra- tion Aid Society. Q. How long have you been in that society? A. About one and one-half years, since December 15, 1902. Q. What are the objects of that society? A. The object of the society is to help, as far as possible, all the Italians who come here, to find work for them, to help them in getting their wages when there is any difficulty in getting them, and to advise them ; to do everything possible to make easier for them their coming here. Of course, directors, incorporators, &c. Q. Have you any agents in Italy for sending out e*migrants ? A. No, sir. Q. No agents in Italy? 'A. No, sir. Q. No agents in the United States? A. No, sir. Q. Only an agency in Montreal? A. Certainly. Q. How is it supported? A. Supported by annual subsidy from Italian govern- ment. Q. Any subscriptions from friends of the society? A. No, somebody gives some moneys, but very limited amount. Q. No public subscription? A. Being only in office last year, we spent all the money allowed for helping Italians, and had to address ourselves to public charity. Q. Did you advertise for immigrants? A. No. Q. Do you issue bulletins? A. Well, we issued some. They were distributed among the Italians here to let them know the aims of our society, and to let them know that there was a society here for their protection. Q. Where distributed? A. Here in Montreal, at my office. Q. Not forwarded to Italy? A. Yes, forwarded to the Foreign Office in Rome, the one at Palermo and the one in Venice. Q. Were these quoted -in any Italian papers ? A. I never heard anything. Q. Or any parts of them? A. I never saw any. Q. Have you got a copy of the last two or three? A. Yes; there have been only two. Q. So you say that these bulletins are distributed in Montreal and sent to the offices you mention ? A. Yes. Q. Who prepares the bulletins? A. The first bulletin I fully prepared myself, and second one by myself partly and by Mr. Internoscia. Q. Mr. Internoscia is solicitor of your society? A. He is solicitor, and at the same time one of the shareholders. Q. Is it a stock company? A. Yes, it is composed of 25 shares of $20 each, $10 cash down and $10 to be paid later. Q. How much do you receive from the Italian government? A. It has not been established yet, but we received for the first two years 5,000 francs, 5,000 francs for 1902-03 and 1903-04. So that this term will expire on June 30 of this year, and we expect to have 5,000 francs for the coming year. Besides that, as we wished to insti- tute a fund for a house of refuge we sent to the Italian government and asked them for about $2,000 for what we needed. These $2,000 were sent to us, but when we started to take a house and to order the furniture, beds, &c., we had on our hands these destitute men. Q. That was this year? A. Yes. We had to buy instead the food of these people, and we spent more than one-half of the amount sent us for the house of refuge. We spent it for bread, and we do not know whether the Italian government will give us back the money we spent for bread. Q. Never mind, you have done all for the best? A. All right. Q. What has been the amount of immigration during the last two or three years from Italy ? A. That is very hard to state. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 11 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Q. Are there no statistics? A. The statistics from the Dominion government give it in part, but the information is difficult to 'obtain. If all immigrants would come from Italian ports or through navigation companies authorized by the Italian government it would be very easy to know that, as they are compelled to be vised at the Italian ports, because no man can leave Italy who does not pass an examination so that he will not be rejected after arriving in America. Those men who have passed the prescribed age limit, or for any reason are afraid of being rejected in 'Italy, cross the frontier into Switzerland and go to Chiasso. But the Italian government kept its eyes open, and Ludwig, who is an agent for some of these doubtful immigration societies, was arrested in Italy for giving out notices contrary to our laws. I don't know exactly the time, but I think it was about six months ago, and he was fined 1,600 francs. Q. For sending labouring men out? A. Yes. Q. How many men came in March, April and May, 1903 ? A. In May very few. Work with the Grand Trunk Eailway and Canadian Pacific Eailway and other similar companies started very early last year. Although it was my first experience, I thought the work of the season very favourable. I remember that I saw in the middle of March last year lots who were going away. Q. On work? A. Yes, lots of them to the west. Q. Although they came in they went out. How many came in? A. Last year, altogether, the immigration has been 3,000, according to the statistics I have seen of the Dominion government. Q. How many immigrants arrived in Montreal this year? A. I think more than that. I think there have been passing through Montreal, coming partly from Cana- dian ports and partly from the American border, over 6,000. Q. How many came to Montreal last May? A. Not less than 4,000. Q. Where did the larger number come from? A. Well, I think that all these came from the north of Italy. We had a large immigration from the Venitian pro- vinces this year, and this I think is due, partly to the advertisements that have been sent,, because they are good men. They are picked men, and any railway company would be glad to have these men, because they are strong and even good looking. Q. That is something new? A. Yes. Q. How many came from the States ? A. Lots, because since January those they call banks or labour agencies in Boston, Chicago and New York, were already asked to gather men to send to Canada for the opening of the season, so I think a very large number came from the States. Q. Did more than one-half come from the States? A. I don't think more than one-half. Q. Did one-half? A. Well, we have no count of these who may have come from the States to Montreal, but I think there were at least 4,000, at least 4,000, if not more. Q. What was the condition of these men? A. Well, the condition as it appeared to us was that at least one-quarter of them were destitute. Q. Would that be about 1,000 ? A. Perhaps, but I do not think it was that much. Q. How many would you say? A. From what I saw myself, it may have been 800. Q. How many did the society you represent assist ? A. Since the month of Janu- ary the increase was very small until the month of* April, since the beginning of April the number increased enormously. Every day we had from 600 to 700 men or more applying for bread, but we did not give bread in this time, especially in May. When they came we distributed tickets with which to obtain bread. Q. Who else assisted them besides your society? A. I do not think anybody else assisted them. Q. Did the city corporation assist them? A. Not particularly, pernaps some pri- vate assistance. Q. Did the city give any money towards their assistance? A. Not for that pur- pose. We had from the city the sum of $200, payable $50 every three months. 12 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. For the purpose of assisting? A. For the purpose of assisting Italians win were needy. Q. How many are there in Montreal to-day? A. I do not think there are many. Q. Are there any that require assistance? A. They may be counted on the hand. There are several that are not young. Q. I mean able to work? A. Any able to work can get work. Q. How many are there without work in Montreal? A. I do not think practically there is anybody, but some come back from other works to the city and stay 10 days doing nothing and then find other work, and even those men who this spring had no work if you ask them to go to work now at $1.25 or $1.35, they will not accept, thinking that they will ha^o a better chance at short notice. Q. What is the Italian population in Montreal ? A. I do not thinit it may be said exactly, because in winter it will go as far as 10,000 when they return after working. In summer it may be a couple of thousand, that is children and wives, or labouring ^people and others that are settled. Q. Are there many settled in Montreal ? A. I think nearly 2,000 with their fami- lies. Q. Doing business? A. Exactly. Q. Then in addition to these, you think there were about 4,000 immigrants extra in May last ? A. Yes. Q. And of these, 800 in needy circumstances and requiring assistance? A. Yes. Q. You think there is no one now? A. Nobody now. Q. Have you done anything to get men or immigrants to come to Canada ? A. Oh, no, we never did anything. We never wanted to state to the government how many immigrants there were here, because in the begining they did not wait to work. We asked the head bosses approximately how many men they would require for the season so as to have a kind of control of this immigration and to state to the Italian government that such a company will be in need of so many men, and another company so many men. There would have been some control in our immigration, as in the ovont of the number of immigrants from Italy .being larger than required the Italian government would have stopped it. Q. What efforts did you make to ascertain the requirements of these companies? A. Well, we applied to the management of these companies, but they declined. Q. What companies? A. The Canadian Pacific Railway, the Grand Trunk Rail- way, and others. Q. Did you make any offers to the Canadian Pacific Railway? A. We thought to supply all the men they might require for their works without any charge and explained to them what were the ends of our society, the beneficial character of the work. Q. Did you state how many you could supply? A. We stated we could supply any number. Q. 10,000? A. Oh, 110. We never stated any number. This was not this year. Last year we stated only that we should have been called to supply these men to the company, asking how many they would require and we would have asked the Italian Government to send them over. Q. Who is Mr. Marriotti? A. Secretary-treasurer of the society. Q. You remember his sending *a letter to the General Manager of the Canadian Pacific Railway, in March, 1903? A. Yes, we sent two, this might be one. (Looking at letter.) Yes, this is the one we sent. Q. Have you got the second one? A. Well, I may give you a copy. Q. If you can find the copy, I would like it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is that the answer that was received. (Showing him answer)? A. Yes, I remember this answer. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 13 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. The COMMISSIONER reads: MONTREAL, March 5, 1903. ' D. McNicoLL, ' General Manager, ( Canadian Pacific Ry. Co., City. ' DEAR SIR, We noticed in yesterday's Star that your company and sub-agents fear not to be able to secure a sufficient number of labourers to carry on all the esti mated work for the coming season. ' Two months ago we applied to your company, proposing to supply all the labour- ers you might need, and now we beg to apply to you personally stating again that : ' You can trust on us for any number of men you may require, even for thousands. t We shall supply these men without any charge whatsoever for the company and shall act as interpreters and do all the work so as to prevent any kind of trouble or annoyance for the officers and employees of the company. * Our society being under the control and subsidized by the Italian government, we may have good, sober and honest people coming to us through the Emigration Office in Rome, that would never allow criminals or sick men to come here. ' Later on, when the railway work will be over, we shall try to settle those men on land and make them good and industrious Canadian citizens. ' As our principal aim is to protect our countrymen against any kind of swindlers, of whom they have been victims until now, we try to secure the good-will and co- operation of all the companies that engage Italian labourers, the C. P. R. Co. first, as the most important of the Dominion, offering our services for the allotment of the men. ' Two months ago we sent to the C. P. R. Co. 50 copies of our by-laws, and as per- haps they did not reach you, we beg to send to you another one of them, from which you may see that our work is highly moral, and that it deserves to be taken into con- sideration. ' Please address yourself to our office, where you will find our agent always at your disposal for any information your company may require. ' Trusting to hear from you very soon, so as to put us in condition to be always icady to meet your requests. 'Yours truly, 'C. MARIOTTI, Secretary-treasurer, 'The Immigration Aid Society No. 1.'.. A. Exactly. Q. You will perhaps let me have a copy of the first letter, and there is a reply from Mr. Geo. E. Burns, I presume, as I see that Mr. McNicoll has indorsed on his letter : ' Geo. E. Burns, Esq. For acknowledgments. D. McNicoll, 6-3-'0#.' ' MONTREAL, March 1C, 1903. ' C. C. MARIOTTI, Esq., ' Secy.-treas. Immigration Aid Society, No. 1, '906 Lagauchetiere Street, Montreal. ' DEAR SIR, Referring to your letter of the 5th inst., directed to the second vice- president and general manager of the company, and also referring to the conversation with the delegation representing your society which took place in my office some days ago, I would state I have taken up the question of the employment of labour with the proper authorities, and have to advise you that it is not the intention of this company to change the arrangements for the employment of Italian labour which have been in vogue during the past few years; our present system has given entire satisfaction so far, and I therefore regret I shall be unable to place direct with your society any specific order for any number of men. Yours truly, ' GEO. E. BURNS, 'Special Agent.' U REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. How many men have you assisted this year to get employment? A. Over 600. Q. Do you make any charge to any one ? A. Our by-laws give us the right to charge a small tax of 50 cents. This year I did not get a cent. Q. Got nothing this year ? A. No, and last year we got only $61 and spent $400 to give them assistance. By Mr. Mowat : Q. Is that article 14 you are speaking of? A. Exactly. Mr. MOWAT (reading) : ' Article 14. The fees of 50 cents each to be charged to every employed Italian labourer shall form a fund from which shall be taken the money for expenses in trying to employ other labourers who are not finally employed by the society within a week, and who would not be bound to pay such expenses ; also to pay law costs in law suits that may be lost before the local courts, when brought to compel the fulfilment of contracts of employment, as above stated/ Q. How many labour bureaus for Italian labour are there in Montreal? A. Of labour bureaus kept by Italians there are practically only two, Cordasco and Dini. Then there is Monetta^ who started this year, and also three or more foremen of these who can understand English. They go to these men and ask them to give them so much and they will find work for them; sometimes they do and sometimes they do not. Our office was formed for the puropse of preventing this kind of swindling of our men. They come here and do not know anything. They come here very anxious to get work, having just a little money that they borrow in Italy very often. After they have paid their passage and have been fifteen days or a month in making expenses they have not got very much and are very anxious to get work, and the last few dollars remaining go to pay this kind of tax to different people to get work. A man who is very anxious to work and does not know where to get it gives what they ask and he is not always well used By Mr. Internoscia: Q. Mr. Candori, you state we have no agents in Italy, but supposing we want 2,000 men to whom would we apply? A. We address ourselves to the Royal Emigration Office in Rome. Q. Then, did we ask any men of the Royal Emigration Office ? A. We never did. Q. You say that No. 1 bulletin has been prepared by yourself? A. Yes. Q. No. 2 was prepared partly by myself and partly by you. What do you mean by prepared by myself? Was it an annual report? A. Yes ;the first annual report made by the president and secretary-treasurer of the society and translated into Eng- lish by you. Q. We have put into the report this paragraph : t As this is the first year of the society, no one could expect it would do many great things, such as what concerns colonization and the opening of a house of refuge for Italian immigrants, things that we have already discussed but which we hope to put in execution during the year 1904.' Later on I see: ' These hopes, together with that of being asked by railway companies to provide them with thousands of Italian labourers, form the project of what we intend to do during the year 1904.' Q. When we speak here of Italian labourers, are these facts or mere hopes ? A. I think they were hopes. Q. Did anybody in Italy take these hopes for facts ? A. I do not think so. Q. They have read the facts as we have? A. They were facts, and we have done our duty, as we have to report to the Italian government our view on the present con- dition of Italians. We stated what had happened last year, and we stated taat was our opinion of what was going on for the next year, but if we were saying that the companies would require a large number of men we should have stated to the govern- ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 15 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. ment, to warrant the opinion,, so many will be employed, and we should have stated send these. Q. Answer my question. Now, have we forms of a contract of engagement in the office? A. Yes, a kind of an agreement. Q. Would we ask the Italian labourer to sign this contract? A. No. By the Commissioner: Q. You might produce some of these forms ? A. Yes. By Mr. Inicrnoscia: Q. We only send these forms to contractors and companies? A. Yes, we send these forms to contractors or companies. Q. These contracts are made between the society and contractors, and not be- tween the society and the immigrant? A. Yes. Q. And in which I have been authorized to do by Chapter 66, Revised Statutes of Canada, 1886? A. It is mentioned in the constitution. Q. The other part of bulletin No. 2 that was prepared by yourself; there are some paragraphs on page 10 of the Italian and page 11 of the English versions. Now, will you read those, and give us your reasons for writing them ? A. (Heads) : ' Some time ago our society applied to the Provincial government of Quebec to obtain some free land for colonization, and we were assured that our demand would be taken into consideration most favourably. ' What we will want next is to secure good men who can help us in the realiza- tion of our best schemes, and they may be sure that the result will be quite a reward for their good-will and co-operation/ ' Everybody knows that very important lines of railway will soon be built across Canada from ocean to ocean. Many thousand men will be employed, not only in the construction of the railroads, but also to open up civilization and progress the terri- tories they will cross. ' What a chance for the Italian labourers who will emigrate to Canada, will they be able to take the advantage of this opportunity? ' We appeal to you, Italian labourers and agriculturists, for your own happiness, for your own credit and for the credit of our country. Come to us, help us in ful- filling our difficult task to guide and protect you. Why should you not be able to do what people of other nations did ? Look at the splendid result that the Italian agricul- turists have had in South America, and especially in Argentina? Why should you* not have the same result in Canada? f Exercise your courage and energy and be ready to do something good on behalf of your families and yourselves. If you are afraid to start in a new calling you will remain a prey to swindlers and cheaters, you will be despised by others and humiliated before your own conscience.' Q. Please explain in a few words why you wrote that? A. That is according to my idea, when I wrote that it was that we really intended to change the character of the Italian immigration as much as possible. There are lots of people who come here who are no honour to the country they come from, nor to themselves. So that we want to have men come here who will settle here and take up land work and meet their situa- tions and positions and so continue. This is what I intended in writing that. There is nothing positive in that, there is only information that large and important lines of railway are going to be built, facts that everybody not only in Canada but every where else know. We did not say to the men to come, but we say to those willing to come : you have a chance. This is what I said, I do not find anything to be ashamed of in that. Q. How many men could you supply from Italy, good immigrants? A. Any number. Q. How many? A. It depends. 16 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. 10,000? A. Well, I don't know of so many. I think 2,000 or 3,000 could be supplied in a certain time. Q. What time? A. A month or six weeks. Q. You think you could supply contractors or railways with 2,000 in six weeks after application ? A. I will explain my application to the Koyal Emigration for pass- ports and for licenses to leave Italy, so that when the Koyal Office will know that a number of Italians are required, they will publish the request any day there is a request for so many men at such a place. Of course the prefect and the mayors of different villages will be utilized, they will go into the districts where population is thickept, where emigration is most required. Q. Would these make good settlers? A. &ome of them would have fair qualifica- tions, because they would not like to stay. The character of the Italian is always t3 go back to his own country generally, but there are other places in which population is so thick the land is not to be had. So then in these places might be picked up lots of good agriculturists, good settlers. In Argentina we have 3,000,000 Italians, good men. In South America about 300,000, and I think in Argentina they have moro Italians than Spanish. Q. So you think you could supply Canada with the same class of men? A. Yes. Q. Let us determine the -facts that we see here. You state, ' our society applied to the Provincial government of Quebec to obtain some free land for colonization/ DD yon know that as a matter of fact ? A. Yes. Q. Have you the letter here ? A. I will bring it. Q. We see here that you ask them to help you in the realization of your best schemes. What are the best schemes ? A. Our best scheme is to change the character of immigration, to make our immigration more useful to Canada, and generally to the men as well. . Q. l And they may be sure that the result will be a reward/ What is this result? A. Because every man who comes here and settles on a farm did very well in Canada. I don't know why Italian farmers should not do as well. Q. The result would be farming in Canada ? A. Yes, certainly. Q. When you say we appeal to you for your own happiness, you ask them to come to you. Do you ask them to come from Italy to you, and why do you ask them to come to you ? A. To come to us when they are here, rather than to go to privat 3 agencies that make them pay money, people who are not reliable. We have no interest we have to fulfil a duty which has been imposed upon us by the government to protect our Italians and to advise them to come to us rather than elsewhere. Q. ' Come to us, help us to fulfil our difficult task to guide and protect you ? ' A. We can do nothing without co-operation in our efforts. Q. And is it possible that our difficult task is to get men from Italy ? A. That is the very last thing we think of. Q. The Italian government can improve immigration 50 per cent, what do you mean by difficult task ? A. Just to control immigration and to have moral strength to protect. Q. ' Exercise your courage and energy and be ready to do something good on be- half of your families and yourself/ Do you mean that they should emigrate so as to go into agriculture? A. It does not require great courage to emigrate, because they come very easily. It requires courage to change the kind of ways they have which I think are bad for something new and to change ways is not an easy thing and requires pluck. By the Commissioner : Q. What have these men been accustomed to do in the old country ? A. Farming. Q. What are they good for when first hired? A. When -they arrive here at first they are fit for nothing else than pick and shovel. I have seen in the neighbourhood of Montreal about 100 farms composed of from 15 to 20 acres. These men come and ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 17 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. hire immigrants who do 75 per cent of the work of improving the little piece of land and after they get there they lease houses. Besides this they have to pay the passages, have to keep families there, small wages are no good for them. Q. Were any of those who came this spring skilled labourers? A. You mean, as mechanics? Q. Yes. A. We had a list of masons. Q. How many? A. About 100. Q. Masons and stonecutters and good men, have they been employed as masons and stonecutters ? A. Very few, and for this reason. Many of these are men who have travelled about the world and been in Germany, France and elsewhere. When they come here they are asked to join unions as a means of protecting labour. They join the unions and when they do so they find very little work one or two days per week. Canadian workmen do not like to be supplanted by foreigners, so many of these masons are compelled to work as labourers. I sent many down to Black Lake Mine, who are now there, say 250. Q. Besides these 100 skilled all the others were unskilled labourers? A. For the most part farmers. Q. But only accustomed to pick and shovel ? A. Yes. By Mr. Mowai : Q. I see here in article 51 that Count Mazza, Consul General in Canada, is honor- ary president. Is this society carried on with his approval? A. It is quite natural, as it is the Italian government that grants money to us, it is quite natural that the representative of the government will approve it. Q. Is it so? A. Yes. Q. Does he take an active part? A. The part he takes is controlling it. Q. Do you let him know what are your proceedings? A. Certainly, when any are taken. By Mr. Internoscia : Q. I see also an article in this constitution which says that provided skilled labour is required that you will furnish it? A. We can get any kind of men. Our society is not only to bring out shovel and pick men, although it is more easy to have immigration of that kind of men to come than skilled labour; they find -work every- where, and they get better wages here than in Italy. Q. We would not ask any of these people to come to Canada unless there was work for them ? A No. By Mr. Walsh : Q. Where did you endeavour to place these men, particularly the men who were here so far, since you have been in existence? A. We have done so. Q. Where the big majority? A. As labourers. Q. You tried to place them with railway companies ? A. With railway companies and private companies. Q. You did not succeed with railway companies? A. I succeeded mostly with the Grand Trunk. Q. How many -did you place altogether ? A. Last year about 300, this year, I am under the impression Q. Had j*ou, as a matter of fact, any experience in the kind of men required on the construction railways? A. Certainly. Q. What experience? A. The judgment of every one. Q. Practical experience? A. Since I started this kind of business. Q. How long have you been at this business? A. One and one-half years. Q. And you state you have placed men on railways, what experience had you? A. It is not very hard to understand what kind of men a railway company may need for ditching or shovelling. 18 REPORT OF ROJAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. As a matter of fact, do you know that railway companies always employ the same men from year to year ? A. Yes, I had proof even last year. 'Q. Don't you know that a great many of these men go back to the United States : A. Part of them. Q. Don't you know that most of the labour brought here from Italy is not used on railways ? A. It is quite the contrary. Q. Brought directly from Italy? A. The railway construction is made in Italy. Q. And you brought out skilled labour to work on railways here ? A. No, because we have no control over immigration, otherwise we would; if you will look into the matter you will see that our main railways in Italy are even higher than anywhere else. Q. You do not know, you are not an engineer? A. I have some knowledge, and you know we have parts of railways that are worse than the Rocky Mountains, the lino from Pisa to Genoa, for example. Q. You issued a bulletin called No. 2. In that bulletin you speak greatly about agriculture and what you intend to do as regards settlement, did you ever apply to the Dominion as to placing of any of these people ? A. No, because it was not represented yet. Q. But you were 1J years at work in connection with your society, still you never thought fit to apply to the Dominion government? A. Yes, we applied for lands in the province of Quebec. Q. How many people did you settle ? A. It is a thing about which Q. How many people did you endeavour to settle? A. It was impossible to settle people if we did not have the land, if we had the land we would find the people. Q. You send the railway companies to place labourers for which you were to get 50 cents per man. You merely made application to the Provincial government for land, when did you do that ? A. About this time last year, July. Q. Did you go to see the government? A. No, we made a regular application. Q. Did you get an answer? A. Yes, our demand was taken into consideration. Q. Did you ever take any further action ? A. No. Q. So that you have followed up your plans concerning the immigration of settlers to this country by simply trying to find work with railways and contractors ? A. We could not do otherwise for the mere reason that everything has been contrary to us. Q. And you attribute that to clear circumstances? A. I attribute that to private interests. Q. Well, you have certain interests in these people? A. No, I do not mean as regards commission, from friendship, you know. Q. You receive no commission ? A. No, it goes to our secretary-treasurer. Q. Are you the agent for any Italian navigation company? A. No. Three men came to see us on the 15th. We had a postcard from the Inspector of Immigration stating that they wanted to go to Italy, and I had bulletins of the sailings of the steamers, and I saw there was one next day from New York at 11 o'clock, and I in- . formed them that if they started that night they might arrive in time on the following day. Q. That is the only case? A. Yes. Q. Now, what about the changing of money to be sent to Italy? A. Anybody coming to me inquiring for change of Italian money into Canadian, or Canadian money into Italian, I send to Mr. Dini. If I thought Mr. Dini would not give same change as another banker I would send the inquirer to the other. Q. As regards the bulletins that were written, don't you know that the publication of these bulletins led to an attack in ' La Patria Italiana ' and the ' Corrirere del Can- ada* \ A. This was not an attack, only a discussion. Q. It was no discussion, because nobody answered it ? A. They said lots of inter- esting things about several gentlemen, of me personally and of the society, but wo never answered, because they did not deserve it. O.V ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 19 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Q. Well, the publication of these bulletins lead to a certain amount of publication going on in the Italian papers? A. There was no discussion. Mr. INTERNOSCIA TO MR. WALSH. Was it not for the bulletin itself and not the dis- cussion, if we want to call it a discussion about the tone of the bulletin or matter? Mr. WALSH. I want to say that this bulletin was re-copied in Italian papers and in other papers. The COMMISSIONER. He says that. He says it did lead to something. He is ready to state that it did lead to something. Mr. MOWAT. I do not understand the position my learned friend is taking here. I do not know why he is contradicting the society, why is this acting before going on with cross examination? By the Commissioner: To witness. Q. Let me ask you a question myself. Has the publication of this bulletin lead to certain publications concerning Italian immigration in the Italian papers of this city ? A. Yes. Q. Has it lead to certain publications in the Italian papers in New York A. I do not know. Q. Has it led to any publications in the Italian papers in New York? A. I never read any. Q. Have you read any other Italian papers? A. I have not. Perhaps the idea of these gentlemen was that the bulletin was made to be published by these papers, because they only criticized the form of the bulletin, saying that there was nothing in what we were doing, but they never published much of the contents of the bul- letin. Q. As a matter of fact, did not these papers, that were referred to a moment ago, and which you admit have published certain information contained in the bulle- tin, did not these papers refer to the great prospects, taking the cue from these? A. Not at all, because there was not one of these articles that we did not take great care to tell the Italians that we made these statements just from what we knew. Q. Did they not take up your thought that they were going to have a great year and that the prospects were magnificent? A. Oh, no. Q. You swear that the Italian papers did not? A. I never read them. By Mr. Internosda: Q. Was our annual report copied in all of the papers? A. Yes. By the Commissioner: Q. Have you got it there? A. Yes. Mr. JOHN S. SKINNER being sworn : By the Commissoiner: - Q. What is your name in full? A. John S. Skinner. Q. What position do you occupy ? A. I am' labour agent for the Canadian Pacific Railway. Q. How long have you been labour agent? A. Well, since the beginning of this year. Previously I have had the supervision of all the labourers employed by the Canadian Pacific Railway and to a large extent the employment of mechanics for the shops, but last year I had nothing whatever to do with the employment of Italians. Q. That was first added to your duties this year? A. This year. 3655 20 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Now you say you have the supervision of the employment of all Italians em- ployed? A. I have the supervision of all. Q. What do you mean by supervisoin? A. It is my duty to receive orders for Ihtse men as they come in from the superintendent at different parts of the line and interview Cordasco, who is given the supplying of Italian labour, and in giving Cor- dasco orders it is my duty to see that the contracts are properly made and filled out by the men. Q. You are an Ontario solicitor, Mr. Skinner? A. I am. Q. What contracts do you refer to? A. Well, every labourer employed by the Canadian Pacific Railway signs a contract in duplicate. He receives one copy and the other copy is kept by the company. Q. Is that in English? A. In English for English-speaking labourers, in Italian for Italians and in French for French labour. Q. That is in three languages? A. Yes. Q. Do you understand the three? A. My knowledge of Italian is very limited. Q. What other duties besides supervising these contracts and employment of these men? A. Well, I have the supervision of the shipment of these labourers by train, and in the case of correspondence with the superintendents to see what divisions these men are sent to, and I also have charge of correspondence regarding claims, if any, are made by these men after returning from work. Q. Have you- charge of everything in connection with the employment and pay- ment of labourers? A. I have not direct charge of that. I have charge under the superintendence of Mr. Burns. Q. Mr. Burns is your chief, and under his direction you take charge of that depart- ment of his work ? A. I do. Q. Where is your office? A. My office is on St. James street, No. 371. Q. Now, who is your employment agent, who employs Italians for you? A. Antonio Cordasco. Q. How long has he been in that position? A. Since before I was an employee of the company. Q. His office is? A. 375 St. James street. Q. Adjoining yours? A. Yes. Q. And has been before your time? A. Yes. Q. Any agent besides Cordasco for that work? A. For Italians, no. Q. What part of the work do you supervise? A. I supervise, first of all, the con- tracts and his accounts against the company. I check each month and make some notes or corrections or deductions, and after doing that, I pass them on to Mr. Burns. Q. You certify the account to Mr. Burns? A. I certify to Mr. Burns. - Q. Do you go into the account to see if Mr. Cordasco's charges are right? A. Yes. Very much so. Q. What remuneration does he get from the Canadian Pacific Railway for the employment of Italians? A. There was an arrangement made this year, in April, between Mr. Burns and Mr. Cordasco. Q. Were you present? A. I was going to explain that I was not present when it was made, but Mr. Burns told me about it immediately. Q. Did Mr. Cordasco tell you ? A. Mr. Burns told me in his presence. Q. What was that agreement? A. The Canadian Pacific Railway, from that date, would pay at the rate of $1 for each man, and in consideration of that, Cordasco was not to make any other charge against the men. Q. Against the men for employment in connection with Canadian Pacific Rail- way works? A. Exactly. Q. Do you remember that date? A. I believe it was the last week in April. Q. What was the previous arrangement ? A. The previous arrangement I was not in- charge of the Italian affairs. Q. What was the previous charge made by Mr. Cardasco, as appearing in his OA T ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 21 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. accounts against the Canadian Pacific Railway ? A. Before April; before that time Cordasco Q. Have you an account so that we may look it over ? A. I have not I am quite well aware I have no account. I have just the particular letters you required. Q. Probably Mr. Burns may show you one of the accounts? A. I am quite well aware that up to that time Cordasco was paid a fee from the company for his ser- vices, and it was understood that he was allowed to collect a fee also from each labourer. Q. With whom was that agreement? A. I cannot give you any information prior to that, before my supervision of this work. Q. All you saw was his fee charged for attending to that work? A. Yes. Q. What was that fee ? A. Cordasco was allowed a fee of five dollars a day for a proper day's work. Q. What would you call a proper day's work ? A. If it took several hours to do he charged for it pro rata, or something of that sort. Q. Did you mention it by hours ? A. By hours and importance of work. Q. So that if he went out to hire men and took two days to hire them, he was paid at the rate of five dollars per day? A. Of course, it was a matter of judgment if he had ; well, if he had used his best endeavours. Q. I suppose you corrected any errors in the way of overcharges in his account? A. Yes. Q. That continued up to about the end of April? A. Up to the end of April. Q. Another agreement was made at that time. Why was another agreement entered into ? A. Just a matter of opinion on my part. Q. Well, I wish to ask you as to your opinion, you do not know why that was made ? A. I can say that it was on account of complaints from Italians as to their being charged, I understand. It was simply an opinion. Q. Was it spoken over between Mr. Cordasco, Mr. Burns and yourself ? A. At the time Mr. Burns told me of the new arrangement. He practically told me that it was because there had been complaints about Cordasco charging the men. Q. And you wanted to stop these complaints? A. Something of that sort. Q. On behalf of the C.P.R.? A. Something of that sort. Q. So the C.P.R. was aware of the character of these charges. What charges were made against the C.P.R. ? A. I did not stop any charge. Q. Why did the C.P.R. interfere? A. Because these men were being employed by the C.P.R., and the C.P.R. thought it well to take care of them as much as possible. Q. Do you think it was in consequence of the Immigration Aid Society who offered to supply men without charge? A. I have no reason to believe that. Q. No? A. Because it never occurred to me. Q. Do you know how many you asked Mr. Cordasco to supply? A. Mr. Cordasco supplied 711 to the C.P.R, this spring. Q. You requested him to supply, or to be able to supply any great number? A. No, we did not tell him what number. Q. Did you suggest to him the number likely tc be employed during the season ? A. No, except in the most indefinite Q. I mean that A. I do not think he was told in the early spring we would require many. Q. How many ? A. I do not think I said anything to him in any way. Of course he had the experience of former years, and this year would be about the same. Q. What was last year's employment? A. 3,144. Q. On the C.P.R. ? A. Last year, Italians. Q. How many labourers had you altogether on your list last year ? A. Well, the total number of unskilled labourers was something in the neighbourhood of 6,000. I nave not got my statement here. You only asked me to bring you the list of people employed this year. I can easily get the exact figures. Q. Kindly do so this afternoon 2 A. Well, it was something over 6,000. 22 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARu VII., A. 1905 Q. What is your information as to the remaining at work of these unskilled labourers. Did they remain there the whole season, or did they jump their contracts? A. As far as the Italians are concerned, they stuck to their contracts quite well. But so far as the other men sent to the North-west where harvesting is going on, they sometimes jumped their contracts. Q. In order to supply their places what do you do ? A. We have to send out more men from Montreal. Q. Have you received any applications yourself for employment? A. I received Dome this year. These applications from labourers go some to the president, some to the general mar^ger. I have a list of those who applied, one list for this year, and there were three or four applications at the end of last year. Q. How many are there? A. Altogether 38. Q. Personal applications? A. Personal applications. Q. Where from? A. People who applied in the autumn, Portland, U.S., and Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan and Detroit. Then the year beginning in January to July 31, including people from Chicago, Brooklyn, Moose Jaw, Sault Ste. Marie, Eoxbury, Berlin, North Bay, Seattle, New Orleans, Buffalo, Spokane, Hamilton and some other places. Q. Are these individual applications, or made for parties ? A. These are all from persons who say they could supply a number of men, some 50, some 10,000. Q. Well, 10,000, where did that one live? A. Somewhere in the United States, I have the letters here. Q. What dates do these cover? A. October 22 last year up to July 7. Q. What answer did you give to these applications? A. Well, in some cases I stated we did not want these men at the present time, and others I did not answer at all. Q. Why? A. They came in too rapidly at times and there was no opportunity to answer them. Q. Was it not because you wished to employ these Italian labourers here? A. I suppose that was part of the reason. Q. You employed them all througn Cordasco? A. Yes. Q. Have you employed any at all outside of Cordasco? A. No Italians. Q. Is that your agreement with him? A. I do not know of that agreement. Q. What is the arrangement with Cordasco with reference to his office rent? A. He finds his own office rent. Q. He pays his own office rent, nothing further ; who is his. lessor ? A. His lessor is Mr. William Walker. Q. The rent for the whole office is paid by the Canadian Pacific Eailway, and Cor- dasco pays the Canadian Pacific Railway exatcly one half? A. He pays for his own office. . Q. To whom does he make payment? A. I do not know exactly to whom lie makes payment. Q. I thought you had charge of that department ? A. I have not charge as far as the collection of rent from Cordasco is concerned. Q. Does he not charge you for work in connection with the cleaning out of the office, and water rates, &c., and all that, who pays for that? A. As far as cleaning of the labour office is concerned, that is a matter that I have attended to ; at different times I have employed people myself, but at the present time and for some months past I have asked Cordasco to have it done by one of his men, who is generally loung- ing about his office. There is a woman who scrubs the office, it is the same person who scrubs his office out, I don't know her name. I do not pay her direct, I pay her through Cordasco. Q. So. that he and you and the railway looked after offices generally? A. No, Cordasco has nothing to ao with my office in the world. Q. I thought you stated that he looked after your office cleaning, water rates, and charged you with them and you paid? A. It is only a domestic matter the cleaning ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 23 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. of the office. I asked Cordasco to get the woman who scrubs his office to scrub mine when she finishes scrubbing his and she is paid by Mr. Cordasco, that is all. Q. Well then, look at that account, how is that, is that for your office? A. No, it is for a yard there is behind the office, and I remember it got full of ice and snow last year and it became very difficult on account of that ice to get it cleaned out, so Cordasco was told to get it cleaned out. It was just a matter of convenience. He has a lot of men loafing around, and he put in an account for it. Q. I suppose the March account would show how much he charged your company, that is certified by you, for the work in connection with the Italians. Have you got that account? A. I have in hand all the expense accounts. Q. We will look at that after adjournment. The Commission adjourned until 2 p.m. THE COURT HOUSE, MONTREAL, July 21, 1904. 2 P.M. The Commissoin resumes. Mr. SKINNER recalled. By the Commissioner : Q. Have you a statement of the men who have been employed this year ? A. Em- ployed this year ? I gave you a statement of last year yesterday afternoon. Q. Don't you know how many there were? A. Unskilled labour, about 6,000. Q. And how many this year ? A. This year to the present, I have not got a state- ment to date. The unskilled labour altogether this year, including a lot of Norwegians employed in Winnipeg, numbered about 2,000. The number of Italians this year is 711 from Montreal. Q. From Montreal? A. And from Winnipeg about 204. Q. Have you a copy of the contract under which they were engaged ? A. You have Mr. Candori, I have not a copy of it. Q. I think you were asked about individual contracts? A. Yes. Q. (Showing contract). This is the form which you have adopted? A. Yes. Q. By the C.P.E., with all the Italian labourers ? A. Yes. Q. Have you got it in English ? A. I have not got a copy here. Q. Mr. Burns signs all of them? A. I sign them for Mr. Burns. Q. Have you been authorized by him? A. Yes. Q. Mr. Cordasco signs them as well? A. He signs as witness. Q. In every case? A. He is supposed to sign in every case. Q. He or his clerk? A. He does it himself really. Q. It is similar to the one in English and French ? A. Yes, I will get you a copy. Q. What other work does Mr. Cfcrdasco do for the C.P.K. in addition to employing Italian labour? A. Sometimes there are claims against the company. Q. You employ him for the purpose of looking into the claims ? A. Yes, looking after them and making translations of letters. Q. He charges specially for these items, does he? A. He is specially paid for them. Q. You think under the five dollar a day item? A. Yes. Q. That is previous to the latter end of April? A. Still. Q. Still paid at that rate ? A. Still paid at that rate. 24 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. In addition to that I see lie supplies Italians who go a distance with provisions? A. He does. Q. These provisions are charged against their wages? A. Yes. Q. Who checks the accounts for such supplies? A. I check them. Q. How do you check them, what means do you take to see that they are correct ? A. Well, the first thing I do is to see whether I think he has supplied enough or too much stuff for the parties leaving, and then I look over the prices charged for each item. Q. You look over the prices charged for each item and ascertain that they are correct, by what means ? A. The only way to ascertain, I judge. Q. How do you judge? A. All the articles he supplies are every day matters. Q. Did you ever test the prices? A. I bought a few duplicates of articles in my list. Q. Just to test the price ? A. To try them. Q. His profit is added to the original item and charged against the Italians' wages? A. I do not understand. Q. You understand he just charges the amounts he pays for these articles ? A. I understand that the articles are bought from him. He adds an amount for what he thinks ft fair price. Q. Are the articles bought from him ? A. The articles are bought from him. Q. By whom? A. By the C.P.K. Q. On your order? A. On Mr. Burns' order. Q. You give him the orders in writing? A. The orders are verbal. Q. In all cases? A. Yes, when I am away. Q. Cordasco gets them? A. As far as supplying provisions on the road. Q. Does he supply provisions, is he at present ? A. I do not know that he is. Q. No, he is not. He gets these articles from others? A. I believe so. Q. You pay him for getting these things ? A. Oh, no, he is not paid for getting them. Q. He is paid for his day's work ? A. The arragement now is that he gets $1 per man. Q. Never mind now, I mean last year? A. I do not know whether he got paid before that. Q. Get me one of the accounts of last year ? A. I do not remember it, I had nothing to do with it. Q. Well, we will take March 15, 1904r you had to do with that? A. Yes, March, 1904. A. Will you look at the items of March 15 ? (Hands him account.) A. March 15 ; yes, I see. Q. i Services rendered by sending provisions to westward train ; it is O.K.M. That is a $5 item? A. That is not for Italian labour. Q. It is simply for Chinese labour. It is a charge against you ; the only difference was that you did not get it back from the Chinese, but you did from the Italians. He charged $5 for that day. $54.05 for these provisions; look at the account? A. Yes, $54.05. Q. He bought them for $37.95 the same day? A. I am not aware. Q. There is the account produced by Mr. Cordasco; $16.10 made on that little item of $37.95. What means have you taken to find out what were the prices of the articles supplied to the Italians and Chinese? A. I have taken no means. I have looked at Cordasco's accounts. Q. And just estimated it was correct? A. I looked at each item. Q. Without knowing whether they were reasonable or not? A. I just went on my own judgment. Q. Look at the April account you passed, too? A. The April account? Q. What is the charge he makes there for shipping men? A. Charges $5. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 25 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Q. For that he gives provisions on that date ? A. What date are you looking at. .Q. April 14. A. He only gets $5 for shipping and loading provisions. Q. That is all he is entitled to, that is bread for your men. Now, what is the account for provisions ? A. $152. Q. Do you know how this is made up? A. It is made up of loaves of bread. Three hundred loaves of bread; I think, he charges 18c. for each loaf. Q. How many sardines? A. Four hundred. Q. How many men? A. One hundred and eight. Q. As you see (showing account) the original cost of these various items was $94.72 ? : A. I never saw that before. Q. But could you not have found out from any person doing business in Montreal? These Italians had to pay $152 for what was purchased for $94.72? A. At the same time. I gather from this statement that they were not paying any more than they would be obliged to pay for themselves. Q. The Canadian Pacific Railway were paying Mr. Cordasco for acting in the interest of these Italians. They were your employees. Now, what means did you take, as a servant of the Canadian Pacific Railway, to find out that you were getting articles at the lowest price for these men? A. In reply, I can only say I scanned ( 1 ordasco's accounts item by item, and if the items were reasonable I passed them. Q. Without knowing what they could be bought elsewhere for? A. Yes. Q. In every month there is a large item for supplies of this kind? A. Some months there is only a small item. Q. Some months larger than $152? A. I do not know. Q. Last year some months were considerably higher? A. I do not know about Last year. Q. And in the present year sardines that cost 4c. a box were charged 12c.? A. They are down here at lOc. Q. That is only 150 per cent profit. Where does all the profit go; does Mr. Cor- dasco alone get all the profit? A. I do not know any one having an interest in it except Cordasco. I must confess that I was not aware that he bought the things as ordered. Q. With every account that Cordasco produced he should have given you the bill in detail from the party he got the goods from for every day he charged you for sup- plies. He gets these articles from Mr. Spenard. I suppose, Mr. Spenard just drives them to the Windsor station, is that all? A. They are looked after there by Cordnsco. Q. And he gets $5 for doing that? A. He does not now. Q. He did last year ? A. Of last year I cannot speak. Q. But up to April in the March and April accounts he has charged them. So you see he gets $5 a day and how much from the unfortunate people who have to pay for these supplies going out west. $152 less $94.72, or $57.28, that he gets out of that. I would suggest in future that'you look into these accounts. Do you not think that is a little more than fair. He is your servant, he has to supply these articles, has he not? A. I quite see the point. Q. Why should you allow him to make money out of these men? A. It is not a great hardship the cost to the men. Q. I do not think it is excusable at all, Mr. Skinner. I think the men pay a great deal more than they ought to pay and more than the Canadian Pacific Railway directors wish them to pay. I feel certain of that, and it is inexcusable that such charges should be made against men; of course it would be very important to have 10,000 for employment by the Canadian Pacific Railway, if such profits can be made. Adjoining your office is Mr. Cordasco's; you see men going in there for the purpose of obtaining employment? A. I cannot see into the office. Q. You can know and hear? A. Only a few. Q. Have you seen them at all? A. I have heard him charge $1 for registration. Q. How much does he charge for foremen. I think Cordasco charges something like $10 for foremen? A. Not that I know of. 26 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. You never heard that Cordasco charged more than $10, $1 from the labourers and $10 from the foremen for obtaining employment for them ? A. As far as the men were concerned, I was thinking of the whole thing, including registration and getting work. Q. What about new labour? A. I understood he charged $1 for registration and a couple for starting them to work. Q. Only that two dollars ? A. Yes. Q. That is $3 for getting employment? A. Certainly. Q. He really makes $4 on these men and $1 from tlie Canadian Pacific Railway, which makes $5? A. No. Q. You told me that the Canadian Pacific Railway agreed to give him $1? A. The Canadian Pacific Railway agreed that he get nothing. Q. Do you know that he gets nothing? A. I do not know. Q. Well, you say that he gets nothing from you ? A. I do not know that he will be paid anything by the Canadian Pacific Railway. Q. If it is not known what he gets? A. My reason for saying that is that he was given $1 in consideration of his getting nothing from the, men. I agree with Your Honour that he should not be paid double for the service. Q. Can you tell me how much Mr. Cordasco has made out of these 700 odd men he has sent you ? A. I certainly cannot. Q. Have you any idea ? A. Well, I know he has been paid nothing by the Cana- dian Pacific Railway. Q. How many foremen have gone? A. I should say about six. Q. Only six foremen for 700 men? A. In some instances it was asked that fore- men should not be sent. Q. Only six foremen for 700 men? A. I think only six foremen. Q. You have a list of the men who have gone out? A. I have got it here. Q. Kindly look up the number who have gone out this spring, every party has a foreman ? A. (Looks at list.) There are 11 foremen. Q. 11 foremen and how many men? A. 711. Q. Eleven foremen at $10 equals $110. How much for each man and how much for getting employment, $3? A. I do not know, Your Honour. Q. We will take $1 for registering, this you do know, that is $700 ? A. Yes. Q. Now, adding this $700 to the $110 received for the foremen, that would make $810 since when was the agreement established? A. On April 14. Q. Well that would be $810 from April 14 up to July 16 inclusive, and if he has charged $3 for each, that is $2,100, and with the $810, that would amount to $2,910 from April 14 to July 16 ? A. On what basis ? Q. If he charges you besides $1 for these 711 men, that would bring the amount to $3,620? A. There was a gang yesterday. Q. How many? A. 15 men. Q. We are only going to July 16. That is 'really all that is black and white. Q. $3,621 from April 14 to July 16. Do you know what efforts he puts forth in order to engage these men? A. He has lots of trouble. He keeps an office with a wait- ing room, they are resorts where these people spend all winter. They come down to smoke, he keeps all sorts of conveniences for them. Q. But I mean as to employment, I mean efforts contingent to getting these men hired ? A. I do not know anything about that. Of course, a great many come down from work in the autumn, some remain there and some go to Boston and New York. Q. Some of those who have registered one year have to pay over again? A. 1 think they want to do it. They come down and consider Cordasco their friend. Q. I suppose he is their friend to the extent of getting what amount of money ho can out of them? A. They seem to like it. Q. They are a peculiar people, you and I would not like that Mr. Skinner. Q. You cannot tell me what agencies he has in the States, or in Italy, for the pur- pose of getting these men out ? A. I have not heard of any in Italy, and I do not know ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 27 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. of jiiiy in the States. I simply know that at the end of the last year, after all the men had been sent and more were required, I understood he got some Italians living in Boston and New York sent up. I do not know though from whom he got them. The COMMISSIONER. That is all I wish to ask. Mr. RICHARD H. LANE, being sworn. By Mr. Mow at : Q. I am told that you are a university graduate, and that for some years you have dedicated your life to the study of social and economical questions in connection with organized charity? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is your present position? A. Secretary of the Charity Organization Society of Montreal. Q. Is that the society which combines the efforts of a number of other societies ? A. It is a clearing house for the other societies. Q. In connection with charity and other philanthropic subjects? A. Yes. Q. You remember the influx of Italian labourers in April and May last? A. I do so. Q. Is it part of your duty to look after and dispense help to destitute persons who corne to Montreal? A. All social problems belonging to Montreal. Q. Did it come under your notice that there was anything extraordinary in this great influx? A. I first noticed along in April that there were a large number of un- employed Italians in all our parks who did not leave the city as they did heretofore in the two years I had been there. Q. Were they sitting in the parks only a f~-w moments? A. Well, they were spend- ing the whole day in the parks, and my attention was called by a good many member?, of our society, and I think we spoke of it and thought it wiser to wait until things came to a crisis before doing anything. Q. Did you inquire where these Italians came from? A. Not at that time, we had a little meeting. I am told it was about May 30 in the mayor's office, I speak and sub- mit to him or he to me frequently questions regarding dependant immigrants from the city council which are referred to the bureau of the mayor. I think he informed me that the president of the Italian Immigration Society had been to him that morning and stated that they had spent a large amount for the relief of the homeless from the house on Windsor street, and he asked my judgment and I told him that before doing anything I thought it would be wiser to call in the president. Q. That is Mr. Catelli ? A. Yes, Mr. Catelli. We met at another room that day Mr. St. Denis, chairman of the Police Committee, who was interested in the affair. Q. Alderman? A. Alderman. The president of the Italian Society. He stated that they had spent over $1,000 of the $2,000 voted by the Italian government for a house of refuge, on bread for these Italian immigrants, and that there were probably 500 of them who had no means. Q. Completely destitute? A. Completely destitute. Q. Eating bread and drinking water and nothing else? A. Yes. The president of the society asked me if the charitable societies would make, a public appeal. I did not feel justified in .doing this, for it is absolutely impossible in feeding a large num- ber of foreigners to have proper control as to how much they really need. Q. You mean that there may be destitution practised? A. Yes. The president of the Italian Society here is well respected, and the mayor told me that he had perfect confidence in what he stated that before I acted as treasurer of this fund I thought it was wiser to take the judgment of two men friends, members of the society. Q. Were they called in ? A. I went to both of tjneir houses before I would act as treasurer of this fund. Both of these men stated that there were Italians who were 23 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 asking for food, and acting upon their judgment I went back and told the mayor that I would be willing to act as treasurer for the fund, and the appeal was published in tha papers and we received about $185 from the public for the bread fund. Q. Where was the bread distributed ? A. From the Windsor street house. I told the president of the Immigration Society and other gentleman that I felt it would be wiser to cut down the bread limit every day, and we did until in about four weeks they were practically giving- away no bread. Q. Then the trouble was acute for about three or four weeks ? A. Yes ? I made an investigation for my own sake and the sake of the mayor, as to the Italians who had no bread and we came to the conclusion that there were possibly. at that time between 200 am] 300 in Montreal. Q. You mean Italians? A. Between 200 and 300 who were dependent for their support either on the Italian Immigration Society or on their friends, of course I know the Italian Society stated there were more, but that was due to many who without reason stated that they w r ere in need, but from my own judgment there were 200 or 300 without means to buy bread. Q. Did you hear Mr. Dini this morning give evidence on this subject? A. I did. Q. Did you hear him say that the bulk of the immigrants were from the States ? A. And I think that is right. That is one of the greatest difficulties we 'have, we can get any amount of people to come to this country from Boston and New York, but w have no means of returning them to these places. Q. You mean that there is a prohibition against our sending foreigners across the liiif ? A. Yes, less than six months ago I had a case of an Italian who had consump- tion and could not live more than two months, and we wished to send him to Italy by the boats that sail from New York, but we could not do so as the United States govern- ment will not allow us to send an Italian home by way of New York, even if we give our personal word that he has paid his fare. Q. How is it about foreigners coming into this country from the States ? A. Well, we do not keep a record of them. It is an open secret that there is some arrangement whereby the steamships plying at ports in the United States get the United States officials to allow these people to pass through to Canada without the inspection they would require if immigrating to the States. I cannot prove that, nor have I seen it, but it is known to be a fact. By the Commissioner : Q. How much was the cost to the society, Mr. Lane, what was the cost for this influx ? A. How much I spent giving bread ? Q. Yes? A. I spent about $106. Q. Do you know what was the result of this large influx on wages of our people? A. That is a very difficult question, Your Lordship. Q. Are you in a position to state? A. No, I have no statistics. Q. You have no practical experience ? A. Well, I know what they say, but I do not think the Italians in Montreal have taken jobs that others would do. Q. That is, you believe that the Italians do work in Canada and the United States that no one else would? A. Yes, that is true of certain work. Q. For instance, construction of railway lines? A. An inspector would answer that better than I could. There is a distinction between the Italian colony in Mon- treal, that come here to reside with their families, and people who come only for the summer. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 29 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Mr. J. M. VIGLIXO was sworn as interpreter. POMPEO BIANCO being sworn. (Through interpreter.) By Mr. Mowat : Q. Are you living at 94 Felix street? A. Yes. Q. When did you come from Italy? A. Eight years ago next March. Q. Have you acted as foreman and interpreter of gangs? A. Yes, sir, two years for the Canadian Pacific Kailway. Q. Did you go to Antonio Cordasco asking him to get you employment ? A. Yes, sir, when I came back from the company. Q. Do you remember the date? A. November 27 last. Q. You saw Antonio Cordasco? A. Yes, sir, he told me to make up a gang. Q. Did you undertake to make up a gang? A. Yes, 104 men. Q. When? A. On December 2, and they were put in the register on the 7th. Q. Was any condition exacted by Cordasco? A. Cordasco told me to send him the names and the money? Q. What money ? A. $100. Q. Did Cordasco make that a condition of putting the names in the book? A. He took a list. Q. Was any greater sum demanded from you as foreman or interpreter? A. No, sir, I was only a foreman. Q. Was there no greater amount paid? A. They gave him $100. Q. How much did you pay as foreman? A. I paid $10 in the month of August. Q. August, 1903? A. Yes, but he did not mark it in book. Q. You paid Cordasco $104 and $10? A. Yes, $104 for men and $10 for myself. Q. When was employment to be given to yourself and men? A. The beginning of March. Q. Did you or these men get employment from Cordasco? A. Yes, on the Cana- dian Pacific Railway. Q. Were they employed at that time ? A. No, they were placed to work on Thurs- day last. Q. From the first of March, when they were promised employment, until Thurs- day last they were idle? A. They work for the Grand Trunk now, and not at place during that time on the Canadian Pacific Railway. Q. They were not placed by Cordasco? A. No. Q. Did he return the money that was paid ? A. No, sir. Q. Have you instructed suit to be entered to recover the money? A. Yes, sir. Q. Through what solicitors? A. r Mr. Pelissier. By the Commissioner : Q. Where did these men come from whose names you gave in? A. Montreal; they had come back from the country. Q. When did you get the gang? A. Last March. Q. Did any of them come from Italy? A. Only two or three came from Italy. Q. Who were they? A. Donato Dorazio, Domenico Bianco, a cousin of mine. Q. And who was the other? A. I do not remember now. Q. Where did those two men come from? A. From Italy. Q. What place? A. Somite Cheta. Q. Who sent for them? A. Domenico Bianco sent for them. He has two brothers here. Q. Did you get any of your men from the United States? A. Yes, but I do not know their names, about 10 or 12. Q. Did you ask Cordasco to refund you this money? A. Yes, I asked him and he refused to pay; he said no. Q. On what condition was the $10 paid? A. He told me it would be all right, he would get me a job, and I took $10 and gave them to him. 30 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. It was to be a good job for $10? A. Yes,. Q. On what condition were the $104 paid? A. For the gang, I suppose, to be fore- man. Q. Where did you get the $104? A. I paid one part from my pocket, and some I collected from the men. Q. Were they to pay any other sum besides the $1 before getting employment? A. Yes, they paid $2, but I paid it back; I did not give it to Cordasco. Q. They paid $2 to get employment? A. Cordasco told me, you must get $2 and bring money to me. Q. How many paid you the $2 ? A. About 15, and I paid it back right away. Q. Were you present in Montreal during April and May last? A. Yes, I was here with all the men. Q. Did you see a large number of Italians here then ? A. Yes, a large number. Q. How many? A. All the streets were full. Q. Can you give me the number as near as you think ? A. Two or three thousand, I do not know. Q. Where did they come from? A. Some from Italy, some from work, some from the United States. From the United States I had 15 men in my house. Q. What induced them to come here? A. I don't know. Q. Did they not state why they came here? A. They said, we saw a notice in the newspapers there was work in British Columbia. Q. What newspapers? A. I don't know. Q. Where did they see this notice? A. In the United States. Q. But those that came from Italy, why did they come here? A. I don't know. Q. Who obtained employment for your gang? A. One part myself and one part my nephew, who lives in Burketon. One of the parties works at Burketon. Q. Are they on the Canadian Pacific Railway? A. No, on other contracts with Mr. Foran. Q. How much are they getting? A. $1.75 per day. Q. How much do the foremen get? A. $2.25. Q. Are they employed in Montreal? A. Yes, they started last Thursday for the Grand Trunk Railway and for manufacturers. Q. How much are they getting? A. Most of them $1.50 per day and others 20 cents an hour, so that they make $10 or $15 per week. Q. Are all your gang employed now? A. Yes, one portion I sent to Mr. Dini on Thursday last; they went to Burketon. Q. For Mr. Dini? A. Yes. Q. Do you know how much they paid Mr. Dini? A. I don't know. Q. Have you anything else to say? A. I can say that my gang owe me $500 for support and cannot give me the money back, because they did not start early enough to -work. Q. 1 our gang owes you $500 ? A. Yes. Q. What was that money advanced them for? A. To give them something to eat and their board. Q. During the last spring? A. Yes, because I was obliged to keep them until last Thursday, eight days ago. Q. It will take all their time to pay back ? A. Yes, I think this year they cannot make enough to live, only two or three months work. By Mr. Walsh: Q. Why did you pay these $10 in August? A. Because Cordasco told me that to get a good place I would have to make a little present, and I gave him $10. Q. Not for work this year? A. Yes. I had paid before I left here on 3rd May, 1903. OA T ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 31 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. By the Commissioner: Q. Did you pay $10 each year you went out? A. I gave him $10 or $15. Q. Every time you went out? A. Yes, every season for the two years I worked for him. GIUSEPPE MIGNELLA being sworn. (Through interpreter.) By Mr. Mowat: Q. Did you apply to Antonio Cordasco for work? A. When I came back from the country in November last I went to Cordasco and he said, ' Mignella you must make up a gang.' Q. He asked you to make up a gang? A. Yes. Q. Have you had experience for some years? A. No, none. Q. What condition did Cordasco make, what did he tell you? A. He says make up a gang. Q. And did you make up a gang? A. Yes, and I gave money to him. Q. How many were there in the gang? A. 42. Q. And you paid $42? A. Yes. Q. How much for yourself? A. $25 for myself. Q. When were you promised work? A. He promised work for the beginning of March. Q. Were you ready with your gang? A. Yes. Q. And work was not given? A. No, sir. Q. And no signs of work? A. No, sir; he told me to wait. Q. Did you ask for the money back? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was the money refused? A. Some of 'the men went to ask for the money and were told by Cordasco that he did not know them but knew Mignella, so I went myself but he said he did not know me. Q. Did he ask you for any further sum in addition to the $1 ? A. Yes ? he asked me to get $2 more from each man, but I did not. Q. Where did you get the men from, the United States or from Italy? A. They were all living where I was boarding, 474 Lagauchetiere street. By the Commissioner : Q. Did you know any of the Italians that came from Italy during the spring ? , A. I knew some. Q. How many ? A. I know three from my own place and some from other places. Q. Who brought them out? A. Fratello; there are some here now boarding in the same house and some in court. They stated to me that they had consulted Cord- asco's newspaper. Q. What are the names of these men in court? A. (Pointing them out.) Grisaphe, Saverio and Antonio Sicari. There were eight, three young boys in the passage and three others over there near the coils. Q. Do you owe Mr. Cordasco any money? A. I owe him $40. I gave him my note for $15 and I paid $10. The COMMISSIONER TO MR. WALSH. Has Mr. Cordasco that note with him ? Mr. WALSH. I will ask him to look and to bring it over to-morrow morning. The WITNESS. I paid $10. He marked down $15 on book and $5, he took $5 from $20 and kept it. By the Commissioner : Q. Did you sign a note for $40 ? A. Yes. There was no amount on note, I saw only my name. 32 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Mr. VINCENZO SCIANO/ being sworn. (Through interpreter). By Mr. Mow at : Q. Did you apply to Mr. Cordasco for work and when ? A. Yes, in November last, about the 20th or 22nd. Q. What did you pay him? A. I gave him $10. Q. When were you promised work? A. In the spring, March or April. Q. Were you to make up a gang? A. Cordasco told me I will give you the men, otherwise if men cannot be supplied here I will send you to New York. Q. Did you supply men? A. No. Q. And did not get work? A. No. Q. Did you get back the $10 ? A. No, sir. I went and asked him for my money, and he asked me what are you asking for, and I said I was asking for my rights, and he told me that I had no rights at all. I told him to look at his books and see if T had no rights at all, and he said your name is not in the book. Q. When was this? A. January last, 17th or 20th. Q. You were not to get work until the spring ? A. I was looking for work, and he said your name is not in the book. There was a crowd waiting for work, but there was no work. Q. But he was not to get you work until March, why did you go there? A. I went there like the rest. Q. Did he afterwards find your name in his book ? A. Yes. Q. Did you ever apply again for a return of the money after January? A. Yes, and he gave me $5 back. Q. Did you renounce all claims against him? A. I did not. By the Commissioner : Q. Where did you come from? A. Buffalo. Q. Who brought you here? A. Mateo Farina. Q. When? A. On August 30 last. Q. Who was Mateo Farina representing ? A. He was a foreman. Q. Foreman for whom? A. Cordasco. Q. What work were you engaged for? A. Foreman. Q. On what work ? A. Railway. Q. Which railway? A. For the C.P.R. Q. When was it? A. We started' work on September 12 last, and I arrived in Montreal about August 30. When I went to Buffalo I had a trip pass, and when I arrived in Montreal I was obliged to pay him $7. He said if you will not give me $7, I will have you arrested. Q. Who? A. Cordasco. Q. What did you do ? A. I paid. Q. $7 for the trip? A. Yes. Q. Was that a portion of the $10 that you paid him ? A. No, the C.P.R. gave him a free pass ; Cordasco charged that for food. We were one day and a night on the road. We had no food, and of course we complained to Cordasco. He said you will find food in the car. There were two boxes of sardines, two pounds of cheese and one loaf of bread, and we paid $7 each for that, for one day and night. When we arrived about 150 miles from Fort William we told our foreman that we had paid $7 for food going 'down to Montreal. He said that is nothing, you will see now when you draw your pay. We paid $7.10 for a day and a night before. Q. Where? A. At Ignace. We went to the head office there and tried to get back our money, and the boss told us we could not, as Cordasco took that money. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 83 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Mr. MICHELE TISI being sworn. (Through interpreter.) By Mr. Mowat : Q. Did you apply to Mr, Cordasco on November 16 last for employment ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he demand money from you and how much? A. I was working for the Canadian Pacific Railway, and I came back from work on November 14. Cordasco had told me when you come back again I will give you another job for one gang of 100. I made up a couple of gangs of 100 and paid $10 for my part and the men paid $2. Q. Did you pay $2 to Cordasco ? A. The men paid. Q. The men that you got paid? A. Yes, some of the gang did. I got $78 and the others went and paid $2. Q. And you paid $10? A. Yes. Q. When were you to get work? A. There was no more work. Q. Did he not promise you? A. He said we have no more work, but this will remain for next season. Q. When does the next season begin? A. When the work goes on like last year, on November 27 I went to work with a gang of 100 men. I worked about two months with Rafaele Giasso. I had 50 men before and two foremen for 100 men. Q. You yourself paid $2 for 50 men? A. I did not pay myself. Q. The 50 men and not yourself paid? A. Yes, the men paid. Q. After they paid when were they to go to work? A. They went to work; I am not complaining about that. Q. Why did you give up work? A. I went on November 27 to work. The men paid their $2 and I paid $10 for myself on November 16. There was no work, so we waited for a few days and worked for Mr. Beemer, a contractor. Q. You never worked for the Canadian Pacific Railway? A. No. Q. Did they get work with Beemer through Cordasco? A. Yes, sir. Q. When did BeemerV work finish? A. I arrived in Montreal on January 27. Q. Did you ask your mojiey back from Cordasco ? A. I did not ask money, because I left the money there for this season. Q. And you did not get work this season? A. No. Q. How long have you been idle ? A. From January 27. RAFAELE DI ZAZZA, being sworn. By Mr. Mowat : Q. How long have you been in this country? A. Fifteen years. Q. As interpreter and foreman? A. Foreman. Q. Did you apply to Cordasco for employment? A. I always worked for Cor- dasco since I have been in Canada, the last five years. Q. Have you got any complaint in regard to work this year?- A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you pay Cordasco money? A. Yes, sir. Q. When and about how much? A. About the middle of January. Q. How much ? A. $10 for a job as foreman with 83 men. Q. How much did they pay each ? A. $1 each. Q. When was work to commence ? A. To commence on March 1, but March, April and May went and there was no work. Q. Did you ask for your money back? A. No. A. No, you thought that no use? A. No. I tried to get a job, and we worked for a little while. Q. Did he ask for more than $1? A. Only $1. 34 REPORT OF ROJAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 By the Commissioner : Q. Did the men get employment through him ? A. Some. Q. Did they pay anything extra? A. I don't' know. SALVATORE MOLLO, being sworn. (Through interpreter.) By Mr. Mowat : Q. Did you apply to Cordasco for work on January 9? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you been foreman of a gang? A. Yes. Q. Did he ask you to pay him? A. Yes. Q. How much? A. $10. Q. Were you to get up a gang? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many? A. Seventy. Q. Did they pay? A. Yes. Q. How much? A. Sixty paid $1 each and 40 $3 for a promise of a job. I gave him $81 myself. Q. For how many men ? A. Some paid $2 and some $3. I paid myself for them. They gave me the money. Q. Why did some pay $2 and some $3? A. Some of them paid $2 more last Janu- ary when they registered, and some paid $3 later on. Q. When was that, how long after January? A. About two or three weeks ago. Q. In the month of July? A. Yes, the same morning I paid $81 for 42 or 43 names, in the beginning of July. Q. When was the work to begin? A. In a couple of days; every time they went to the office they were told to-morrow or after to-morrow. Q. If they were promised work on March 1 and did not get it, why did they pay him $2 more? A. He always put off the men saying to-morrow or after to-morrow, and at last the men came to me saying they would like to get money back. I went to Cordasco to aslf for the money and he said, get out or I will break your face. Q. He would push your face in, that was within the last few days ? A. Yes, siv, when I went down to his office. By the Commissioner : Q. Did you get a paper like this ? A. The men do not know him at all, they know mo. When I went there to his bank, he would not hear me. By Mr. Walsh : Q. Is it not true that Cordasco has returned some of the money to some of the men ? A. I do not know, but the men came to my house and asked for money and I told them to go down and see Cordasco. Q. Where are these men? A. Some have left, some were asking for money, so I borrowed $10 from a friend and gave it to them. The day after I went down to Cord- asco and told him I paid $10 for the men and I said give me $10 at any rate, and he gave me $10. We could get nothing more from Cordasco, and we could not get work. We spent all our money, sometimes $6 or $7 trying to get a job. Cordasco used to tell us to-morrow, next week, but to-morrow or next week never came. By Mr. Mowat : Q. I see your picture in the supplement of the banquet to Cordasco, did you con- tribute towards that? A. Yes, myself. I paid $5. I had no money and was obliged to go and borrow it. FIl^U ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 35 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. BAFAELE Di ZAZZA, re-examined. By the Commissioner : Q. You sent for your wife on November 26 last? A. Yes, sir. Q. How much had you to pay for tickets ? A. I forget, about $42, yes $41.65. Q. When did she arrive here ? A. About February 27. Q. How long does it take to come ? A. About 12 days via New York, 12 days from here. BAFAELE ITALIANO, being, sworn. (Through interpreter). By Mr. Maw at : Q. Did you apply to Cordasco for work on November 27 last? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he say that you would have to pay him? A. Yes. Q. How much did you pay ? A. $10 on November 27. Q. How much for yourself ? A. $18 altogether for myself. Q. Did you ever pay any more? A. No. Q. Did you ever pay $7? A. No. Q. Only $18 in all? A. Yes. Q. When were you to get work ? A. On March.20 or 25. Q. Did you get a job? A. No. Q. Did you ask for your money ? A. No, I asked him last year and he told me he did not give it back. Q. Did you ever know him to give back any money to anybody ? A. No. By the Commissioner : Q. How long have you lived in Canada ? A. Four years. Q. You lived in Montreal? A. Yes. GUISEPPE ZOLAIRE, being sworn. (Through interpreter). By Mr. Mowat : Q. Have you been employed on the C.P.R., and when did you go to work ? A. On July 3. Q. July 3 this year? A. Last year. Q. When out on the work were you bitten by mosquitoes ? A. Yes, bitten by black flies while employed. Q. How much did you pay to Cordasco ? A. We paid $9 for three. Q. When did you pay that money ? A. On May 15. Q. These men were not foremen? A. No. Q. Did you pay the money to Cordasco himself? A. Yes. By the Commissioner : Q. Why did you pay that money? A. Because Cordasco said if you want work for the season you will bring $3. Q. Did he demand $3 before giving employment? A. Yes. Q. What work were you on? A. With a contractor. Q. On the C.P.R. ? A. Yes, sir. We signed a contract that they could not put me out before four months, and after working three days we were sacked. Q. Who sacked you ? A. The boss foreman. Q. I suppose he was sacked too? A. Yes. Q. How much had he paid for himself ? A. $3. Q. He was not a foreman? A. No, he was just a labourer. 36b 6 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 ANTONIO SICARI, being sworn. (Through interpreter.) By the Commissioner : Q. Where did you come from? A. From Italy. Q. When? A. Arrived here on May 15. Q. What part of Italy? A. Reggio, Calabri. Q. What made you think of coming here? A. They sent so many circulars and newspapers and some representatives. Q. Have you got any of them? A. No, I have not got any. Q. Who sent them? A. A man named Pasano; he paid for many men. Q. How many? A. In my village, about 20. Q. What cards had this man, what name ? A. Pasano. .Q. Where did he direct you to go ? A. He gave the address to each man, and told us to go to Cordasco, aa& we paid 450 francs each. Q. All? A. Yes, all. I paid 450 francs ; there were 90 of us paid the same amount. Q. Where were you directed to go? A. To Cordasco; they gave us his name and address. Q. What did you do in New York? A. We were visited and examined and came direct to Montreal and went to Cordasco and paid him $3. Q. You came direct to Montreal and paid Cordasco $3? A. Yes. Q. When ? A. We paid to the foreman and the foreman gave the money to Cor- dasco. Q. How many men came over with you in the same vessel? A. 750 Italians. Q. Did they all come to Montreal? A. I think there remained about 30 in New York. Q. About 30 remained in New York? A. Yes. Q. Had they the addresses of Cordasco, all of these men ? A. Yes. Q. Did you see any circulars from Cordasco ? A. Oh, yes, there were lots a-nd newspapers. Q. Do you know where any of these are now ? A. I do not know. Q. What was on the circular? A. It stated that any man that could come would make plenty money, so that we came to this country and left our families. Q. Did the circular state how many men were wanted? A. It stated that every man should like to come because he could make lots of money. Q. Did they state the wages? A. Yes, sir. Q. How much? A. From T.50 to 10 lire per day; stonemason 15 lire, or about $3 a day. Q. When did you arrive in Montreal ? A. On May 15. Q. Did you get any employment at all since you came here? A. We were pro- mised work from day to day and some got work. Q. How many did get work, between 600 and 700? A. I do not know, because we did not stay in the same place. Q. Were there many without money ? A. No one had money. Q. How were you supported? A. Well, our friends helped us some and others helped us. Q. How many are there now without work ? A. All these here have no work. Q. Are there 100 without work? A. I mean only where I board myself. Q. Yes, only those you know? A. There are more than 100 without work., Q. More than 100? A. Yes, they all go to Cordasco's bureau for work. Of Course, we paid before and cannot pay any more. Q. Does he ask for any more before giving work ? A. No, sir. OA T ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 37 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. MICHELE CILLA, being sworn. (Through interpreter.) By Mr. Mowat : Q. How long have you been in Canada? A. Since last May, 1903. Q. Have you been foreman ? A. No, sir. Q. Have you applied to Cordasco for work and did Cordasco get money from you? A. When I arrived in this country Cbrdasco's brother took me down to Cordasco's, and I paid $3. Q. Were you promised work? A. This was last year; he gave me work. Q. This year did you pay any more? A. Yes. Q. How much? A. On March 22 last I paid $13 for 13 men at $1 each to Corr dasco. Q. Was work promised to them ? A. Yes, he said we would start with his brother on April 1. Q. For the Canadian Pacific Railway? A. Vincenz Cordasco left Montreal on April 14. Q. You were promised to go with that crowd? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were not taken ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you ask for your money back ? A. He said I will send you to work in a few days with my nephew. Q. Did 'he do so ? A. No, sir. Q. Is it the practice for you to pay each season to be put on the register ? A. Why should we pay. Q. If a man goes up and comes back, has he to pay again? A. I left job I had on ship, Cordasco promised me I will send you to work on the railway. Q. How often have you paid Cordasco? A. I paid him twice, once I paid $1 and then I paid $40 to Cordasco. Q. For how many men? A. I paid $3 fqr thirteen men for to get a job on the C.P.R. Some time after I went to Cordasco and told 'him, I have lost check, I have no work, you will give me no job, will you be good enough to give me back my money, my $40. He had a revolver in his hand and he said, if you ask any more for your money I will pull forty drops of blood from your forehead. Q. Did that threat affect the matter, were you threatened ? A. Yes, he had a rolver in his hand. Q. Where ? A. In his private house, I can swear that was in his house. ANTONIO SICARI, rej-examined By the Commissioner: Q. What was the name of the steamer you came in ? A. Santo Trado. Q. What line ? A. The Italian General Navigation Company. FRANCESCO PICIMENTO, being sworfi. (Through interpreter). By the Commissioner: Q. How old are you ? A. Going on 19 years. Q. When did you come to Montreal ? A. Arrived here April 25 last. Q. Where did you come from ? A. Reggio, Calabria. Q. What was the name of the steamer ? A. I think the name was Ingleterra. Q. Who paid your passage coming out ? A. I paid myself. Q. How much? A. $34.20. 38 REPORT OF R07AL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. How many came out with you? A. From the same village there were about thirteen or fourteen. Q. From all parts ? A. 1,800, with the sailors. Q. How many came to Montreal ? A. Fourteen came to Montreal. Q. Did you come direct to Montreal ? A. The ship arrived in New York. Q. You came to New York ? A. Yes. Q. How many men came from the ship through from New York to Montreal ? A. Fourteen from my place; I do not know about the rest. Q. Were there many ? A. Yes, many. Q. Did you sea any papers to induce you to come here ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What were they ? A. They came from Montreal. Q. What name was 011 them ? A. Cordasco bank. Q. Who showed you these papers or gave them to you ? A. Some gentleman from that place. Q. Did you know whether the gentleman was from the steameship or another gentleman? A. I do not know. Q. He left the paper with you ? A. Yes, he had lots of papers. Q. What did the paper say ? A. All those who wished could come to Montreal and make plenty of money. Q. Did you come out in the same boat as Antonio Sicari ? A. No, before him, the ship before. Q. Did you know these men in Italy ? A. Yes, sir, in Reggio. Q. What part of Italy ? A. Keggio Calabria. Q. How long before you came out did you see the circulars? A. They com- menced to post the circulars in February two years before. Q. You saw that circular two Q. They have known you for many years ? A. Not me, but my address. Q. The letter states this man has your address ? A. Is that the yellow card ? Q. Are these the cards that were brought out ? A. Yes. Q. Did you send them to this company ? A. No. Q. 'You might furnish him with a ticket,' what does that mean ? A. I do not know, he wanted to go to the States. Q. ' And you will oblige us if you will credit me with the commission on that ticket'? A. I never credited him with commission, of course I got no commission Q. Did you write an answer to this letter ? A. No sir. Q. Now, you remember the advertisement you were speaking about yesterday, which Mr. Mowat asked you about, as to 10,000 men for next spring ? A. I saw it in the Italian papers. Q. How much did you pay for the advertisement? A. Nothing. Q. Did you give Mr. Di Rossa something for it ? A. No, sir. Q. You did not pay for the advertisement in Montreal ? A. No, sir. Q. Are you sure that you did not answer that letter ? A. No, sir. Q. Have you any other letters that you received ? A. I only got two letters. Q. You told me yesterday you had nothing and I found this ? A. I was giving a couple of people a sheet of paper in my drawer and came across these two letters from Chiasso, I did not remember them. Mr. BURNS, re-examined. By the Commissioner: Q. When we adjourned last evening we were inquiring into the question of the estimated number of labourers you would require for 1904? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Well, now, you told me that you had written to some superintendents for in- formation so as to enable you to estimate the number? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. What was the result of your efforts to estimate that number? A. The effort was fruitless. On looking over the matter, I found that some superintendents did not give correct information, some delayed answering so long that as a matter of fact the spring was so far advanced, and we saw that there was going to be a large number of labourers in America, and we dropped the whole matter. There was no estimate. 3667 52 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VM., A. 1905 Q. You stated last evening that you thought there would not have been so many required for 1904 as had been used in 1903? A. That statement was based on in- quiries I had made, and the result of this communication was that I thought 1here would be a stringency in the money market and, consequently, probably few works of any importance going on throughout the country. Q. That is what you explained? A. Yes. Q. Was that your opinion at that time? A. It was, Your Honour. Q. Now you said you had about 8,000 or 9,000 on the list in 1903, of which about 3,100 were Italians? A. Yes. Q. Now, how many did you think you would require for 1904, the Italian part of that number ? A. I had no idea whatever. Q. Did you think you would require as many in 1904 as you had in 1903 ? A. It is quite impossible to determine, I will tell you why. The Italians on our line are used to replace those men in the North-west Territories who have been employed earlier in the season on contracts, and to whom at this time of the year, July and August, when the harvest starts, the farmer offers high wages and they jump their job?;, and the work is left behind, and we have to rely on anything we can get. As a rule they come here for labour, as there is none in the west, and the only thing that is found is Italian labour. Q. Your duty is to provide them in case of emergency ? A. Yes. Q. What means do you take to provide them ? A. That was generally all right, it does not require particular action. Q. It required some information from your agent who employed them? A. We kept pretty well posted as to labour immigration in New York and in Boston. Q. Who got that information ? A. We get correspondence that would show. Q. That correspondence with Cordasco and others would show exactly, but these were fetters which you really did not answer then ? A. Yes. Q. But you relied upon Mr. Cordasco to supply you with all the Italians 'you wanted ? A. Well, J heard. Q. You relied upon him ? A. Yes. Q. If you relied upon him, I suppose it was necessary to give him some informa- tion as to the number you required? A. Well, I have never given him any definite information. Q. Never any definite information? A. No. Q. Did you give him any information as to the number you would require in 1904 ? A. None. Q. None whatever? A. None whatever. Q. Never spoke about it? A. I may have discussed the matter. Q. Have you discussed the matter with Mr. Cordasco as to the likely number you would require in 1904? A. It was possible. Q. Do- you know how many you suggested to him? A. I do nol remember sug- gesting any number. Q. No number likely to be required? A. No. Q. To any body else? A. No, sir. Q. Do you remember saying to anybody that the Grand Trunk Pacific would re- quire a great number? A. No, Your Honour. I may have inquired if the Grand Trunk Pacific would require them. Q. But you never mentioned that to anybody? A. We may have discussed that matter. Q. With Cordasco? A. Yes, it was discovered that the Grand Trunk Pacific was not going to require any Italians. Q. When did you discover that ? A. I think late in the spring. Q. This year? A. Yes. Q. You lay your plans before spring opens, so as to arrange things ? A. We did not this season. Q. I thought you stated you inquired late in the fall to get the number ? A. We inquired through tlie general superintendent. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 53 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Q. At that time had you no idea of the number that would be required on other lines as well as on your own ? A. No, Your Honour. Q. None at all ? A. No. Q. I think there was correspondence to show that was the case. (Looks at corre- spondence.) Look at that letter, Mr. Burns. (Mr. Burns reads letter.) Was that letter written by you Mr. Burns ? A. Yes. Q. And I suppose the statement there is an estimate? A. That is in December. Q. I am talking about December ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. That was your opinion at that time ? A. I was thinking about the spring. Q. I was referring to the fall not the spring, Mr. Burns. Now your letter reads as follows : ' 10th December, 1903. ' F. P. Brady, Esq., ' Asst. General Superintendent, ' Winnipeg, Man. 1 DEAR SIR, Keferring to the attached, my object in asking for this information is to make adequate provision early in 1904 for the labour requisitions during the season of that year. t This year we had an unprecedented demand for labour from all sources over this company's lines, and we have shipped out in the neighbourhood of 10,000 men, skilled and unskilled, so you see that it is very important for us to know what pro- portion of those sent out on the lines worked out their contracts, so that some infor- mation may be obtained as to the reasons for so many men jumping their work with a view of remedying that state of affairs during the coming season. It is also neces- sary to find out what the local supply of labour is on each division. ' As you are possibly aware, there is every indication of a large demand for labour in this country in 1904. I am informed that possibly the Grand Trunk Pacific may want a great many thousand men, and as the supply of labour is lim- ited in Canada, steps may possibly have to be taken on the part of our company to import labour from abroad, or make some definite arrangement in regard to the supply available in Canada. ' I am sorry to trouble you for this information, knowing you are so very busy, but I would like very much to be in a position to make my report about the first week in January, 1904. ' Would you kindly strain a point to get your superintendents to forward inf or- formation desired. ' Yours truly/ Q. That was your opinion? A. That was at the time. I presumed the Grand Trunk Pacific was going ahead. Q. At that time that was your opinion, Mr. Burns? A. Well, if it was not I would not have stated it. Q. You stated yesterday that your opinion was just the other way, that the same number would not be required in 1904 as in 1903 ? A. Well, I think that I took into consideration the Grand Trunk Pacific project when I wrote that letter. Q. I know that I was asking you what your opinion was in the fall of 1903. You stated your opinion was that a large number would not be required. Now you wrote in December you would require more. Which is correct ? A. It is difficult to reconcile both, although I utilized the information I had on hand when I wrote. Q. The information which you had in your mind in the fall of 1903 ? Was it that you considered then you would have a greater or a lesser number of employees in 1904 than in 1903 ? You told me yesterday you would have less. In this letter written on December 10, 1903, you say : 'As you are possibly aware there is every indication of a large demand for labour in this country in 1904 ? A. Well, the only explanation I have is that I was a little defective as to the time or place. 36b 7i 54 REPORT OF ROTAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD V!i., A. 1905 Q. I think it is part of your duty. When I was trying to find the aggregate number in former years, you showed me a statement to the effect that you did not think that you would require so large a number. Which is correct, your recollection or the letter ? A. I should say my letter. Q. How soon did you speak to Mr. Cordasco about supplying the C.P.R. with Italian labour ? A. I have no recollection of speaking to Mr. Cordasco about Italian labour, as to giving Cordasco any definite idea. Q. I do not want anything definite at all, when you spoke to him it would be as early as September, 1903 ? A. I do not think so. Q. December ? A. No. Q. You understand Mr. Cordasco's position. He would have to get men, he would have to make arrangements ahead ? A. Certainly. Q. How long ahead would he require to make arrangements ? -A. It just depends on the state of the labour market. Q. It is not a question of the labour market, supposing 10,000 men were wanted, how long ahead? A. It just depends on the season and state of labour market. Q. You were beginning to look for men as early as the opening of spring, now when would you require to inform Mr. Cordasco ? A. I do not think I ever made any preparation. Q. Did 'he ? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Not to your knowledge? A. Not to my knowledge, I do not know, he made no preparation whatever. Q. Never advertised ? A. I do not know whether he ever advertised. Q. You advertise in the same paper he does, you get that paper ? A. I have never seen his advertisements for men. Q. You remember the advertisement Mr. Dini says he put in in consequence of the advertisement of Mr. Cordasco ? A. I do, Your Honour. Q. That was clone in 1903, was it not ? (Shows paper). This is for next spring. Can you read the advertisement and say what was in it ? A. Yes, Your Honour. * Q. You say these labour agents had to prepare sometime ahead and you had to prepare some time ahead ? A. No, the preparation was not made. We had no data to go on. Q. I understand that you were preparing to get ready for the work ? A. We were looking around. Q. Did you speak to Cordasco ? A. No, sir. Q. You did not speak to him at all ? A. I spoke to Cordasco several times. Q. When ? A. In the course of the winter. Q. When you were writing these letters ? A. Hardly before I wrote these letters. Q. Would you know better ? A. I might have, but I do not think so, it is rather hard to remember the exact time. Q. I do not know that it is very hard, it is your business to meet the general press of business ? A. Yes. Possibly the Grand Trunk Pacific might want a great many thousand men, as the supply is limited in Canada, steps would possibly have to be taken by our company to import labour from abroad or make some definite agreement as to the supply of labour. Q. That was your opinion at the time ? A. Yes, some steps, some arrangement would have to be made. When I come to think of this matter, I can tell you what made me write this letter. Q. Well ? A. I had been in New York and had met our agent. Q. That was the time you were down with Cordasco ? A. I think that was the time, and he informed me that the general agent of Anchor line had told him that he was to bring in 10,000 for the Grand Trunk Pacific. Q. Who was the agent ? A. I do not know. This agent stated that they were bringing in about 10,000 men for the Grand Trunk Pacific this spring ,and I think it must have been acting on this information that I wrote that letter. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 55 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Q. That was in September you were down ? A. I think not, I think it was later " than September, I think it was on December. Q. Had Mr. Cordasco that information too ? A. I think he had. Q. You were both together at the time ? A. Yes. Q. So that he was also aware that they were then preparing for a large number of men ? A. Yes. Q. And it is in consequence of that you were taking steps to prepare for same ? A. To ascertain what was required. Q. It was your duty, you were compelled to do that in the interests of your com- pany ? A. Certainly. Q. At that time you thought that ' steps may possibly have to be taken on the part of our company to import labour from abroad ? ' A. Yes, Your Honour. I may say that I took some steps in regard to the importation of labour with the man- agement. It was my desire to send one of our men over Q. To Italy ? A. No, to England, Scotland and Scandinavia for the purpose of getting immigrants. Q. How many were you going to get out ? A. We wanted hinTto only get lire- pared. Q. He was not going to send men over ? A. Only 100 or 200. We wanted him to be ready, if we required men to send them by next ship. Q. How many did you think you would send for, give me some idea 2 A. It developed afterwards. Q. Never mind afterwards, at the time you were considering these ideas. A. Well, my idea was to provide for the future. Q. How many did you think would be required, not only for this year, but other years ? A. I have no idea. Q. Well, 10,000, 20,000 ? A. Speaking from other years I should say not less than 5,000. Q. You would not go into such an undertaking for the company without consulting the- management. You proposed that to the management this spring ? A. Yes. Q. When ? A. I think it was in the month of February or beginning of March. Q. Did you talk to Cordasco about helping in this matter ? A. Cordasco was not in it, the Italian question did not come into it. Q. But the Italians form a very large part of the number required on your road ? A. It was my idea that we ought to get Danes, Swedes and Norwegians. Q. What is your experience of workmen for that class of work, what class is best ? A. I think the best people for the C.P.E., are the Scandinavians, not because they aie better workmen than the Italians, but if they get through their season's work they usually take up a piece of land and settle, whereas Italians come out here for gain and do not assimilate with the country. Q. How long have you been of that opinion, Mr. Burns? A. I have studied this matter quite a bit, four or five years. Q. How long since you first came to that conclusion ? A. I think last year. Q. Were you not of a different opinion even as long -ago as last month, that you considered Italians the best for the railway ? A. Italians are best in this way, they -are the only class of labour we can employ in Canada who can live for a year on the wages they earn in six months. Q. You are looking at it from your standpoint, not from the standpoint of the men at all. In the interest of the company which class of men do you consider the best ? A. I should think the Scandinavians. Q. Did you ever express an opinion that the Italians were the best ? A. I may hp.ve, in some respects. Q. In what respects ? A. Well, for instance, at the present time, if we have Italians in the North-west there is no danger of their jumping their jobs and leaving us in the lurch. 56 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. It is very important to have a large number of section men to depend upon ? A. Very important. Q. Therefore, with, that end in view, the Italians are the best employees ? A. Yes. Q. And therefore you have a large number employed ? A. Yes. Q. A greater number than of other classes ? A. About equal. Q. Equal with what other class ? A. No one class, but all classes together. Q. About half Italians. Therefore did it not strike you that it would be a good stroke of policy to provide for a large number of Italians for 1904, so far as your work is concerned ? A. I do not remember making any calculations on the subject. Q. You were quite willing to allow the Grand Trunk Pacific what would be left, but you wanted first choice ? A. I think we made a basis of what we want in Montreal but beyond that I do not make any calculations at all. Q. Did Mr. Oordasco make any calculations ? A. I do not know. Q. Did he never tell you ? A. I think he told me in December or January, he had about 1,000 men on his books. Q. Did he not tell you he was bringing a large number to Montreal and wanted you to take some ? A. No. Q. He never asked you, to take men from him ? A. Yes he frequently wrote especially during this spring. Q. What did he say ? A. He wanted to get rid of his men. Q. And you were leading him into trouble ? A. Yes. Q. Saying you were aware that he was bringing in a lot of men ? A. I did not know he was bringing in any. Q. Did he not tell you he was having a lot of men coming from Italy ? A. T think he did mention that he had a lot of men, he did not tell me they were coming from Italy. Q. Not at all ? A. Never sir, I think. Not one man. Q. You are quite clear about that ? A. I am. I have no recollection of his say- ing about bringing any men from Italy. Q. He wrote you on March 18, 1904, that letter did he not Mr. Burns ? A. Yej, Your Honour. Q. He was in trouble about you not taking men? A. Yes, Your Honour. He wrote you that letter on May 10, 1904 ? A. Yes, I remember that letter dis- tinctly, but I have no idea he ever brought them over. Q. The letter is as follows : ' MONTREAL, May 10, 1904. ' G. E. BURNS, Esq., ' Special Agent, C.P.K. Ee INFORMATION. 'DEAR SIR, Arrived by the way of Chiasso, over 300 Italians and nearly 200 by New York. Sure will be a disgracefull for these poor emigrants with the old ones which they put up here all winter, and Italian Consul with his society are to be blamed and they should be crushed to peace. ' Your servant, 'A. COKDASCO.' A. I would imagine that the Italian Society brought them out. Q. That is why he wrote? You do not think he was trying to blame them for bringing these people out. You remember his going for that society? A. I know he and the society did not pull. Q. In fact he has been 'doing all in his power to injure that society ? A. I beli( he has. Q. Writing in the papers against that society? A. I have heard of writings. Q. A special supplement against that society? A. I don't know anything aboi that. 02V ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 57 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Q. Never heard about that ? A. No. Q. Then at that time you knew he had 300 arrived and 200 more coming? A. Cordasco used to cover all trains with his men, and I did not know they were his men. Q. He was at that time asking you to employ them? A. If you can interpret that letter so. Q. Did you assist him getting employment for them? A. I did not assist at all. Q. You remember that telegram being sent to Foley Brothers & Larson on May 5, 1904? A. Yes, he spoke to me about that. Q. And you approved of its being done? A. That is his own telegram. Q. I know. You see it is charged to you, you paid for it? A. es. It does not cost me any thing. Q. Would cost him though. A. Yes, I quite understand that. Q. It says : ' Understand you are in need of large number men for construction from Sudbury for C.P.R. Can supply you with two thousand experienced railway Italian navvies at moment's notice. Reference Canadian Pacific Railway.' 'A. CORDASCO. ' Charge a-c G. E. Burns.' Q. So that you were aware at that time that he could supply two thousand men. He could supply more than that 500 men in Montreal at that time? A. I believed so. Q. None hired ? A. I don't know. Q. Where did they come from ? A. I don't know. Q. Did you make inquiry? A. No, I knew there was a large number. Q. It would take some time to procure a large number from Italy and the United States would it not? A. I don't know. Q. They had to make some preparation? A. I suppose they would require cer- tain tables of steamship sailings if they were brought out. Q. Exactly, did you inquire about that? A. No. Q. Did you not inquire how many you could depend upon getting? A. I did make some inquiry, but I did not know the number. I spoke to Mr. .Cordasco. Q. He objected to others sending men to any other railway? A. He objected to any company getting ahead of the C.P.R. Q. He writes : 1 MONTREAL, May 9, 1904. ' G. E. BURNS, Esq., 'Special Agent, C.P.R., Re INFORMATION. 1 DEAR SIR, The Canadian Northern Railway Company has sent on order re Mr. Waller, agent at 1887 Notre Dame street, for 200 labourers, and this hiring was going on from this morning and 200 Italians were hired to go to Winnipeg, leaving Mont- real to-morrow morning. Wages $1.50, fares $12 to be deducted from first wages from each of them, and talking going on that 600 more Italians will be hired by them this week and each of them was charged $2. Who is to blame, is only Cordasco that charges. ' Your servant, 'A. CORDASCO. p.S. Very sorry to see all the best and first-class Italian labourers taken away. A.C.' Q. I suppose that was written by himself, he was sorry to see? A. Your Honour, these letters came to my office. He was keeping me posted as to labour conditions. I think that was about the time of this agitation. Q. No, May 6, 1904, the agitation was for want of bread? A. What date. Q. May 6. 1904. A. When was the agitation for want of bread? Q. About this time. A. I wanted to get data as to the situation from Cordasco. Q. When did you advise him about the situation of labour? A. I think about the time this trouble occurred. 58 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Do you remember when? A. Early in the spring. Q. March? A. Somewhere about the neighbourhood. Q. He was in great trouble to see that other gentlemen were sending men away ? A. The great trouble was that he was getting no orders from me. Q. P.S. Very sorry to see all the best and first-class Italian labourers taken away ' ? A. He wanted to supply these to me, I suppose. Q. Had he charge of all Italians in Montreal ? A. No. Q. Why was he sorry to see these men despatched by anybody except Cordasco ? A. I consider that to mean that his men were dropping him and getting employ- ment elsewhere and the C.P.R. was losing their services. Q. I suppose that was the reason. On May 3, 1904, he writes you again : ' Last night, May 2, 1904, fifty Italians hired by Mr. A. Manetti, Italian restaur- ant, 508 St. James street, were shipped to North Bay and each of them paid $3 for commission, at rate of $1.75 per day, to work on railroad for A. K. Macdonald. ' Your servant, 'A. CORDASCO. 7 Q. Still advising you of what was going on ? A. No, sir. Q. That is the position Mr. Cordasco was taking towards these men. That is not answered. On May 18, 1904, Mr. Cordasco wrote: MONTREAL, May 18, 1904. 1 G. E. BURNS, Esq., ' Special Agent, C.P.R., ' DEAR SIR, I am in trouble with some Italians and if any orders come you must take some of my labour, or otherwise I will be obliged to face big trouble with some of them. ' I agree with you to supply your superintendent in Ontario division, or to any other with first class men. About that man in Latour, I believe he never worked in your company at all, and if he is a new man, will have my interpreters all mad and kindly to see that if any men be called to take my men before anybody else. ' Oblige . Mowat: I belong to Taliano's gang. I paid Cordasco $1 in December and $2., 15 days ago. Asked for a job but got none. I asked for my money back, and he refused to give it. STEPHANO LETO, being sworn. By the Commissioner : Q. How many men did you bring over from New York? A. Fifty men; they came by themselves. Q. Fifty men only? A. Yes Q. What do you mean by saying that you brought men over when you brought over 100 ? A. 100 divided under two foremen. Q. When did you bring them over? A. A month and a half or two months ago. Q. Where from? A. From New York. Q. How much did they pay ? A. We paid $1 each. Q. To whom? A. To Cordasco. Q. When? A. In March. Q. Have you got employment? A. Not yet. Q. Did you pay any more money ? A. No. Q. You got $1 from each of the men in New York? A. No, sir. 72 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD yi[., A. 1905 Q. I say you got $1 from each of the men in New York ? A. Yes, I took $1 to send the money here. Q. Were they promised work on the Canadian Pacific Railway? A. Yes, on the Canadian Pacific Kailway. Q. On payment of $2 for each? A. We did not pay it. Q. Was not that the understanding? A. Yes. Q. Did they ever receive any work? A. No. Q. Did you take Cordasco's cards with you to New York? A. No. Q. Did you see some of the men with Cordasco's cards? A. No. Q. How long have you been in New York ? A. Ten years. Q. Have you ever acted for Cordasco in New York? A. Never. NICOLA GIOIA, being sorn. (Through interpreter.) I belong to Pellegrini's gang. 1 paid $1 to Cordasco in December last for a job. I got no work. I am 17 years of age. I have been in Montreal for the last 15 months. I am from Naples. I arrived here on June 15 last year. PIETRO PALMIERO, being sworn. (By interpreter.) I belong to Bazzanni's gang. I paid Cordasco $2 in November last. Last year I was in the country working for the Canadian Pacific Railway, and I came here because I was told they had a job here for me. Q. Did you get any work ? A. No. Did not get my money back. I paid $3 more on the 9th of this month. He said he would give me a job. Here is the receipt for the money. Mr. INTERNOSCIA. If your Lordship will permit, I will ask Mr. Burns to come into the box one minute. The COMMISSIONER. Very well, Mr. Burns. Mr. BURNS re-examined. By Mr. Internoscia: Q. Mr. Burns, you stated in answer to His Lordship that you had no knowledge that Mr. Cordasco was charging $3 for the men. Do you remember if Mr. Candori here ever spoke to you of this? A. I remember one particular case, yes. Q. That is the one I refer to ? A. I do not know if I misunderstood, I only heard it, Your Lordship, later. I have heard to before and went down. Mr Candori came to my office with an Italian, who told me he paid this $3. We went down to Cordasco's office, and held an investigation ,and my recollection is that as such an amount did not appear in the books both Ganna and Cordasco denied having received it. Q. When was that, what month? A. I cannot remember, probably two months ago. Q. Do you remember that Mr. Candori spoke to you several times about this sub- ject? A. I remember his telling me about $2 being charged, but not more; the $3 I do not remember. Q. Do you remember if Mr. McNicoll, of the Canadian Pacific Railway, showed you a letter written by our society on March 26, 1903, wherein appears this paragraph : ' We suppose it never came to your knowledge that certain people possibly author- ized to deal with your company engage Italian labourers to work on your roads, only on payment of a commission of $3 each, and refuse to engage those who cannot afford to pay such a commission. Every day at the Italian Consulate General and at our office complaints of' that kind are made. We wish to stop such an abuse of charging $3 or more to poor men, whose children are perhaps starving/ 02V ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 73 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Q. You remember if Mr. McNicoll showed you that letter, it is dated March 26, 1903, or will you please correct your statement to that extent? A. I think I made some inquiry at the time, and reported that only $2 was charged ; that was my impres- sion. By the Commissioner: Q. It was understood that the amount of provisions supplied by Mr. Cordasco should be deducted from the first month's wages of the men? A. Yes, sir. Q. That sum would be paid to Mr. Cordasco in his monthly account ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you gone over the statement for the last year to see what is the total amount charged for provisions last year, 1903 ? A. I have taken all of 1903 and 1904 to date. Q. Now, from 'the beginning of 1903 to June, 1904, how much does it amount to ? A. $6,453.41. Q. Would that be paid by Italians only, or by Italians and Chinese? A. This would be by Italians and Chinese. The latter do not amount to a great deal. Q. Have you gone over the profits that were charged on these provisions by Cor- dasco? A. As far as I could. Q. And what can you give as profit? A. I can only work out the last -three items. Q. You have not worked out the whole? A. There is no data. Q. You take the prices there? A. I compute the profit of the last three items. Q. That would apply pro rata to the whole amount? A. I suppose so. Q. What would be the percentage? A. About 63 per cent. Q. What would that amount to on the whole? A. About $3,600 or more. Q. Nearly $4,000? A. $3,800; I will go over it again. ANTONIO CORDASCO being sworn. By the Commissioner: Q. What business are you engaged in? A. I am a labour agent, ship Italian money, and sell some steamship tickets. Q. Have you a bank ? A. Just, for the use of Italians, shipping money to Italy. I do not receive money on deposit. Q. How many years have you acted as labour agent ? A. About six or seven years, I guess. Q. For Italian immigrants altogether? A. For everybody. Q. Have you employed any other classes of immigrants besides Italians ? A. Yes. Some years ago I engaged French, English, Scotch and Irish; any kind. Q. For the last two years? A. All Italians. Q. During the last four years? A. It is a little over three. Q. For three years have dealt exclusively with Italians ? A. Yes. Q. You claim to be sole agent for the Canadian Pacific Railway for the employ- ment of Italians? A. I put that in the papers, and did not find anybody to interfere. Q. You claim to be sole agent? A. You see I was employing. Q. Are you sole agent for the Canadian Pacific Railway? A. As far as I see no- body else is. Q. Were you employed as sole agent? A. I do not know if Q. You must answer my question, are you sole agent for the Canadian Pacific Railway? A. Yes, I am. Q. Why did you not answer at first ? How long have you been sole agent for the Canadian Pacific Railway? A. About three years. Q. What was your engagement? A. To hire Italian labour. Q. What remuneration were you to receive? A. At the beginning, before the strike, I received nothing at all. I supplied two or three gangs. Q. For nothing? A. [Sot a cent. 74 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Who paid you ? A. I charged the men $2 each. Q. That was in 19012 A. Yes, May 27. Q. Then, when did you commence to work for money? A. When the work com- menced they wanted labour; they offered good wages, and they came over to see me. Q. Who were they? A. Mr. McKay and Mr. Garden. Q. Who else ? A. And Mr. Burns. Q. These three gentlemen came to see you? A. Yes, that is all I can remember. Q. What was the agreement arrived at between you? A. They asked if I had any Italian labour to supply to the Canadian Pacific Railway. Q. How many ? A. In the beginning 100 or 500, whatever I could get. Q. When was this? A. On the beginning of the strike. Q. In May, 1901? A. In June Garden came to see if I could supply some labour- ers for the Canadian Pacific Railway. Q. What did he offer? A. At that time he offered nothing. Q. When did he offer anything? A. As soon as the strike began. Q. In July? A. I think so. Q. What did he offer then? A. One dollar for each man I could supply. Q. One dollar for each man? A. Yes. Q. How many men did you supply then ? A. During that year of the strike ? Q. During the strike? A. I might say between 2,000 or more. Q. Where 'did you get them ? A. I picked up what I could get in Canada, and when I could get no more here I wrote for some. Q. Where? A. I think I wrote to New York. Q. No where else ? A. I wrote to Boston, but did not get any there. Q. Anywhere else? A. That is all; I wrote New York, Boston and Portland. Q. Did you send any men down there to look for men ? A. I think so. Q. How many did you send over to the States during that time ? A. Let me see ; I sent four, five or perhaps six. Q. They went to different parts of the States ? A. I sent them to New York, and now I remember I sent men to Philadelphia and to Buffalo ; that just comes to my mind. Q. I thought you had. A. That is all. Q. Then, how long did that arrangement continue? A. That went on until the strike was over. Q. You got the men's expenses or wages that you sent away as well as the $1 per head? A. I got no wages, just $1. Q. Did you get paid for the men you sent over collecting these men ? A. I do not understand. Q. Who did you send over to Philadelphia? A. I sent my brother. Q. How much did you get from the Canadian Pacific Railway for this work? A. I told you I paid Furnero $3 per day. Q. And his expenses ? A. I do not know. Q. You do not remember about his expenses ? A. That is all I remember, $3. Q. He was not paid his hotel bill besides the $3 \ A. That is all I remember. Q. He got his expenses? A. He may have, I would not say no. Q. You charged for his expenses? A. That is three years ago. Q. Did you establish any agencies at that time to supply you with men when you wanted them? A. No, sir. Q. Did your men do so ? A. My men went by my instructions to New York and Portland wherever they could get the men. Q. Can you say how long that agreement lasted? A. I had no expenses at all during the strike, only $1 for each man I supplied. Q. How long did that agreement last ? A. About three months. Q. Then you entered into a new agreement? A. Then this year, I think, the strike was over some time in August-; I stayed idle for two or three months and went to see my friends about in the month of October. That same year after I came back here ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 75 SESSIONAL PAPER NQ. 36b. a new agreement was made that I was to get $5 per day.* I was to meet No. 2 train every night and take No. 1 to go on and meet No. 2 as far back as Ottawa or any place to meet that train, and to send back the men where they came from. I did this until January. Q. Did they get a free pass? A. Yes. Q. They were given free passes? A. Yes, even when I brought them from New York they got free passes coming here. Q. Did you charge any of them $1 for hiring them? A. Not at that time. Q. That was later? A. Yes. Q. Then from that date, the fall of 1901 up to 1904 you were paid $5 a day for your work ? A. You will excuse me, no, in December that year I was only given work to settle claims and translations until January. There were some complaints about money, wages, time, and I went* with Mr. Burns to New York on January 9, 1902, and stayed there about eight days to settle up all claims in regard to wages. Then we went to Boston to see if anybody there claimed anything. Q. Yes, what else? A. Then from Boston came back to Montreal. Q. Well now, when did you enter into a new agreement after that? A. Then when I came back to Montreal I made up my bill for January and I think in February and I received a letter from Mr. Burns objecting to. giving* me the $5 per day any longer, but would pay me so much for translation, so much for investigations, and would give me $5 if I put in a full day's work, but I would be paid so much for each investigation when it took less than a day. Q. Last year what was the agreement? A. Last year, 1903, beginning of Janu- ary, I was sick and was laid up for a couple of months, for seven weeks anyway. After I got a little better and Mr. Burns got me a pass and told me I had better go off on a trip, and I would have liked very well to go, but one of my children here was very sick and I did not go. Q. What agreement? A. This was agreement, $5. Q. $5 per day? A. When I put in full day. Q. Did you put in full days from end of March until December ? A. I think from March until December there were four days cut off in Otcober when I went on busi- ness to New York, and I was cut off from November. Q. How many days? A. If I do not mistake, about $62 or $65. Q. I think you are not right? A. You have the paper there. As far as I can remember we had some claims to settle then. Q. That is later on. Look at the amount in January? A. In January I took sick. Q. During that year you got full months. In January, 1903, 2 days, February, 6 days; March, 26 days; April, 29 J. days, last April remember? A. Yes. Q. April, 1903, a year ago, you got Sundays? A. Perhaps I worked on Sundays. Q. I did not think you would work on Sunday? A. I did, Your Honour. Q. June, 30 days ; July, 31 ; August, 31 ; September 30, you got paid for Sunday ; October, 28, two Sundays struck off, you went to church on those days? A. Yes, very good. Q. November, 28 days, anything cut off, two Sundays? A. In 1903. Q Anything cut off? A. I got $62, I am not sure. In December, my friend Skinner cut off that much. Q. You got an account? A. In December. Q. December, 17 days allowed? A. That is all right, Mr. Skinner cut off Sundays. Q. So you were working then ? A. I did some work as before. I thought amount was right so I took it. Q. You took it because you could not get any more? A. Yes, if I could have got more I would. Q. Yes, you complained to Mr. Burns and wrote a hard letter to Mr. Skinner? A. Well, I do not say so; probably I was looking out for my rights. 76 REPORT OF R07AL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Then the $5 arrangement continued until "when ? A. Continued until 1903. Q. 1904? A. I beg pardon. Q. What time in 1904? A. Well, in January I took sick, last year. Q. This year? A. Got sick in January. Q. When was the arrangement entered into? A. This new arrangement was not in black or white, there was just a verbal arrangement. Q. Verbal is good enough ? A. In April Mr. Burns spoke about it and on' the same day we had to send some people away, and I said I will see. Q. Did you not agree to it ? A. Well, I agreed to it in my own way. I did not know what he meant. Q. That you were only to charge $1. $1 on this condition I have named? A. My idea was that I would supply all the men needed and at the time of signing the contract I would make a list and would charge the company $1 per man. Q. Would not charge the men anything? A. Any time I was sending for the men. Q. You would not charge from the date you entered into the agreement? A. I wish to say when signing the agreement I charged nothing to any men. Q. You would not charge the men anything for employing them? A. Just the time I was working for the Canadian Pacific Railway. Q. Let us understand the matter. Mr. Burns swears that the agreement between you and him was this, you were to be paid $1 for each man employed by the Canadian Pacific Railway, on the condition that you would not charge the men a single cent. Is that agreement right as Mr. Burns says, answer whether or not it is right. There cannot be two ways of understanding it. Mr. Burns swears that you agreed to supply the Canadian Pacific Railway with men, they to pay you $1 each in condition that you were to charge the men nothing, is that right? A. Not right, we Q. Where is it wrong ? A. It is wrong in this, at the time I worked in my office, in the office belonging to me when a man registered in my office, and when the C.P.R. asked for 100 men I make the contract and I charge nothing to the C.P.R. Q. Would you refuse a man work without his being on your book? A. Well, I refused nobody, but I took what was right. Q. Mr. Burns is wrong when he said you were charging the men nothing? A. Probably misunderstanding in his way. Q. There could be no misunderstanding, you are an intelligent man? A. There must have been a misunderstanding as to the way of hiring. Q. The C.P.R. allowed you $5 a day for looking after the men you were to hire ? A. No, when I was engaged last year for the C.P.R., I charged nothing. Then when during the strike I wanted 100 men, the men came to me and offered me money to be taken on. Q. And you charged for these 100 men ? A. Not a cent, when engaged direct for the C.P.R, Q. It was understood that you were to take nothing? A. When I was hiring for the C.P.R. Q. I suppose the men paid you money to get work ? A. The men came to my office which I had fitted up for them ; I supplied them with envelopes, writing paper, ink and other conveniences tending to their comfort, and you would not expect me to do this for nothing. Q. If any men registered last December they paid $1? A. I do not think there was any labourers registered. Q. No labourers registered? A. No. Q. How many in round numbers paid $10 ? A. I cannot remember, but my books will show. Q. Can you tell me how many? A. Not very well. Q. Pellingrino? A. Paid me not a cent for registration. Q. Poliseno? A. Yes, sir. Q. Del Vecchio ? A. Yes, sir. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 77 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Q. Mighella? A. Yes. Q. Cirillo? A. Never paid me a cent. Q. Maiorano ? A. Yes, $10. Q. Misite? A. Yes, $10. Q. Memme? A. $10. Q. Bertone? A. Nothing. Q. De Ciccio? A. Yes, $10. Q. Taliano? A. Yes, paid $10. Q. De Leva? A. Nothing. Q. Luigi Vecchio? A. $10. Q. Bocconcelli? A. $10. Q. P. Bianco ? A. Not one cent. I think he came to complain. He never paid one cent for registering for this year. Q. Mollo? A. Never paid a cent for registration this year. Q. Bancchiero ? A. $10. Q. Spinosa? A. $10. Q. Bazzani ? A. He paid $9. He came to me and got $5. I will give him back the rest. Q. Giacchi? A. $10. Q. Fuoco? A. $10. Q. Figara ? A. $10. Q. Pellissio? A. Nothing. Q. Onofrio? A. I gave him back the $10. I wanted his receipt back and he refused it. Q. Barachino ? A. $10. Q. Denardi ? A. Nothing. Q. Scarf o? A. $10. Q. Mancini? A. $10. Q. Old Giacci? A. $10. Q. Leto? A. $10. Q. Aceto ? A. $10. Q. Tisi? A. $10. Q. Perluzzi ? A. Nothing. Q. Cardarello? A. $10. Q. Tamnizzi? A. Nothing. Q. Antonucci ? A. Has not paid. Q. How many men had he ? A. 20. Q. Condo from Boston? A. $10 and 41 men. Q. Lisa ? A. $10. Q. F. Farina? A. Only $5 as foreman, 53 men. Q. Mateo Farini? A. $10, 50 men. Q. Lenzie, New York ? A. $10, 32 men. Q. Localio ? A. Has not paid. Q. Eagonesi ? A. $10, $31 for men. Q.. Zuccaro, New York ? A. $10, 34 men. Q. Cosenza ? A. Got money back. Q. Masseni, New York? A. Sent him money back. Q. Diana ? A. $35 paid. Q. Mila ? A. $10. Q. La Femina ? A. $10. Q. V. Cordasco? A. Nothing. Q. Ant. Giacci, Sciano, Mello? A. Nothing this year. Q. Cerrone? A. $10. Q. D'Alessandro? A. $10. Q. Olivastri ? A. $10. 78 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1906 Q. Filavori, Portland ? A. This is not paid, 27 men. Q. M. Tisi? A. $10. Q. Cina? A. Not paid, 25 men. Q. A. Miele ? A. $10. Q. Scarpino ? A. Not paid anything. By the Commissioner to Mr. Ganna: Q. All these are foreman ? A. Yes. Q. How many are there? A. About 62. Q. How many paid $10 ? A. More than 50. Q. Since what time have they paid this amount? A. Since about the beginning of November last. Q. Up to what date? A. Up to May or June. Q. How many do you say ? A. 62 foremen in all. Q. Do you know how many men registered with these foremen and some without bosses during that time, from the end of November until the end of June ? A. I made out a list of 3,863. Q. Is that right ? A. I don't know; it is about right. (Hands in list.) By the Commissoner to Mr. Cordasco : Q. Will you go over that list and tell me how many paid $3 to you ? A. I cannot say, probably 300 or 400. Q. How many paid $2 ? A. I have not figured it out. Q. How many paid $4 ? A. There may have been some, yes, 300 or 400. Q. 400 ? A. Yes, 400; Ganna put it in his book. Q. What did Ganna put in his book ? A. The amount I received. Q. You have collected $1 for registering all along, and $2 for getting work for them, and lately you have been charging besides $1 over the $3 ? A. Your Honour, excuse me, I only got from $1 to $3. The men paid me $1 in December, then $2 in March. Later on in June they came along and wanted to get registered, and they forced me to take more money. I can get half a dozen witnesses to prove this^. Q. How much have you received from these 3,863 men? A. The figures are all in the books; they paid $1, $2 or $3. Q. Have you received $6,000? A. No. Q. $8,000? A. No, sir. Q. I will go over the matter, but I don't want to take up the time now, and find out the money that has been paid since November. Where did you get all these men from Mr. Cordasco ? A. Those I have been receiving lately are from all over. Of course, they know me to be supplying the Canadian Pacific Railway, and lots of men come during the last two or three years from all over and they have all had correspondence with me to know whether there would be work this year and to enter their names. I told them I can say nothing just now, but I expect there will be lots of work. I also told them not to come to Montreal until I called for them by letter or telegram. I told them also to send $1 in order to have their names registered in my books. Q. Did you tell any of these people that you wanted 10,000 men? A. I do not remember that I ever wrote such a letter, if you can show me it. Q. I do not wish to show anything; from your memory, did you write to any one or advertise that you wanted 10,000 men this spring? A. I never authorized any one to put in paper about Cordasco wanting 10,000 men. Q. Did you write to^ a firm in the United States stating that you wanted 10,000 men? A. I do not quite remember. Q. Did you ever have a notice posted in Stabile's bank in Boston that you wanted 10,000 men? A. I never gave any such instructions. Q. You heard about that notice ? A. Ganna wrote him a letter about it. OA T ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 79 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Q. Where is that letter ? A. Well, Ganna has got this letter; Ganna you must get that letter. He put it in the book and signed it, saying we wanted 10,000 men. Q. Cordasco wanted 10,000 men? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. You heard that such notice was in Stabile's office ? A. No. Q. What business had Ganna to write over your name and state that you wanted 10,000 men? A. He signed many of my letters; we were good friends. Q. You did not hear that your name was on that notice? A. I never heard that. I asked Ganna who authorized him and why he advertised in the papers for 10,000 men. *Q. You will show me that letter you wrote, you had better have the letter book here? A. You have all my papers. I have all my office before you. Q. I want your letter books to-morrow morning. A. You will have them. Q. Do you know Mr: Paretti in Italy ? A. I never saw the man until I heard about this party when Deputy Minister King came to Montreal. Q. You will swear to that now that you never heard of him until Mr. King came here ? A. I can swear that. Q. You can swear that ? A. That is as I remember. Q. I wish to warn you to be very careful because it is a serious matter if any one swears what is untrue; I want you to be careful. A. I will tell you Q. Do you know Mr. Paretti? A. Never saw him. Q. Ever wrote to him? A. Not myself. Q. Did you ever write to him? A. No, sir. Q. Ever send him any of your cards? A. No. Q. Nor letter ? A. Not that I know of. Q. Without your knowledge ? A. I found out there was some communications between A. N. Ganna, my bookkeeper, and him. Q. Ever send him any newspaper ? A. Mr. Ganna Q. I am asking you, not Mr. Ganna ? A. I did not myself. Q.- Did you ask Mr. Ganna to send for one ? A. No, sir. Q. And write him letters ? A. Well, sometimes Ganna writes letters and posts them without showing them to me. In these letters he may have said it is likely that Mr. Antonio Cordasco will want 10,000 men. Q. Do you know where Paretti lives ? A. No, sir. Q. Not even where he lives ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you ever receive a letter from Paretti ? A. Well, I don't think until Mr. King Q. Yourself ? A. Myself, I did not myself. Q. Did you ever receive a letter from Mr. Paretti ? A. I do not quite remember. ' Q. Now Mr. King, did not see that letter at all from Mr. Paretti ? A. I think he saw it. Q. No, he did not; I saw it first and you produced it to me; do you remember that ? A. Probably you did. Q. On the 1st July ? A. Probably I did. Q. Did you ever see it before I saw it ? A. That is the time I saw the letter from Paretti when Mr. King was here. Q. You did not show it to Mr. King? A. Mr. Ganna Q. Never mind Mr. Ganna, I want you to answer for yourself; did you show that letter to Mr. King ? A. I did not know such a letter. Q. You stated you knew when he came here. I understand he knew nothing^ of this letter from Paretti to you ? A. I guess that is right. Q. When did you get that ? A. That letter was received. Q. You got that letter ? A. Yes, I got that letter. Q. You did get that letter from Paretti ? A. Yes. Q. When ? A. Some time ago; I do not remember it. Q. About the time it is dated; have you got that letter, Mr. Cordasco ? A. The letter from Paretti? Your Honour, I think, h.is got it. 80 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION * 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Just see if you have it ? A. (Looks in book). That is it, 1st March, 1904. Q. On the 1st March you wrote to Mr. Paretti as follows: SIG. ANTONIO PARETTI, 94 Aquileia, Udine, Italy. I am in possession of newspaper which you were so kind as to send to me; also your cards, and wish to thank you for them ; also two packages. I am sending you tha time-table which you asked me for and my address, which you can give to the people so that I will know them when they come. At the end of the present month there will open up great and important works, end I must supply about 10,000 labourers. If you have any passengers, you can send them without any fear I am able to give them immediate work. The salary will bo $1.50 a day; besides that they will get a return ticket from any locality; they can board themselves or get board as they like. The work will last long and the payment is siire. Each man gets a contract in Italian, containing the clear conditions under which they have to work, in which is specified the length of time, salary, &c. In one word, there will be no tricks or schemes. I am always here to defend the interests of compatriots. I am besides in touch with other navigation agents in Italy, and they have already written to me that they will send some passengers to me this month. If you send any to me, please supply them with two of my business cards that I sent you, so that each passenger landing at New York will be recognized by one of my agents, vhich agent, authorized by me, will accompany them to the train, and on the train to Montreal, so tbat they won't be taken up by anybody else, or fall into the hands of speculators. Already a large number of workers arrive continuously, especially from Vicenzo, Treviso, and some from Padova, Belleno, also some from Pordenone, Codroipo. If you wish to send us any mon, you need not have any fear, and send them all to my address:. You must notify me in time when the men will arrive, sending the ncrnes of the passengers and of the company and boat by which they start. With regards, - (Sgd.) ANTONIO CORDASCO, Per A. GANNA. A. I never signed this letter, never authorized anybody to sign it. Q. Did you get a letter in answer, do you remember that? A. There was an answer. Q. You remember that? A. That time I was nearly firing Mr. Ganna. I did not want to fire anybody until I was sure, any way. Q. You had received a postal card from Mr. Paretti before March 1 ? A. I never knew there was any correspondence with this man. Q. Will you look at this post card and see if you did not hand that to me on July 1? A. Yes, I did. Q. You got that? A. I said there was a man. Q. You got that letter in February or March 1? A. I handed that post card because I knew nothing about the letter. Q. You got that post card about March 1? A. I don't know. Q. Now, do you know what that post card says (Reads)) : UDINE, February 17, 1904. 'Mr. ANTONIO CORDASCO, Montreal. 'I received a newspaper, the Corriere del Canada, in which appears your distin- guished name, as I believe you are the kind donor. As we have a strong stream of emigration (from the Venetian Provinces) towards that country, I should be very glad to frequently receive your newspaper, and I can reciprocate by sending you Italian papers. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 81 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. might send me a time-table of the Canadian Pacific Railway from Montreal to the interior of Canada, with a map. ' Always at your disposal, and thanking you, * Yours truly, 'ANTONIO PARETTI.' Q. You know the paper ? A. I know the paper. A. Pretty good paper ? A. It is all right, I think. Q. Bears your distinguished name ? A. I never sent any. Q. ' As I believe you are the kind donor/ you never sent that ? ' As we have a strong stream of emigration from the Venetian Provinces/ &c ? A. I never had any communication with that gentleman. Q. You remember reading that ? A. I think so. Q. And you answered it ? A, No, I did not; ask Antonio Ganna; you can bring him under oath. Q. I don't want to bring Ganna. A. I blame him for the whole thing. Q. Did you get another letter from Mr. Paretti? A. I do not know what is com- ing. Well, go ahead. Q. That I am trying to do but very slowly. On April 6, 1904, you again wrote to Mr. Paretti, do you remember that? A. I don't remember. Q. You say : MONTREAL, April 6, 1904. ' Mr. ANTONIO PARETTI, 1 94 Via Aquilea, Udine. ' In these days some Italians come to me showing your blank business card and saying that you recommended them to me, and although the presentation signal was not a sure guarantee, I received them and I shall send them to work. 1 In future it will be better, when you send Italians to me, to give them one of my business cards with your office stamp on them, and I shall be sure they are sent by you. ' Some time ago I sent you several business cards, to-day I am sending you some more of them. ' I thank you for the newspaper you sent me and hope you will receive weekly the newspaper that I send you. 'Yours truly, ' ANTONIO CORDASCO, Per A. GANNA. A. Is my signature there, if it is then I will be responsible, Your Honour. Q. Let me see the letter book, page 48. It is your signature, per A. Ganna, your stamp. A. Anybody can make a stamp. I never authorized this gentleman to sign this. Q. On April 26, 1904, you wrote again to Mr. Paretti : 'MONTREAL, April 26, 1904. ' Mr. ANTONIO PARETTI, ' Udine, Italy. ' I confirm my letter of the 6th inst., and I address you the present to clear up some facts that cause me annoyance, that I do not need to have. 1 Many immigrants from the Venetian Provinces came to me declaring they were sent by you, but without any card of recognition, and alleging that you had promised that they would be sent to work in two days. ' I don't wish to blame you for that nor do I believe what the men say, but I think it is better to clear the matter up. I give employment to all Italians who come to me as I wrote you in my letter of March 1, but it is absurd to expect that I am to givei employment to-morrow to a man who applies to-day to my office. I could not put him 82 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 before the others who are awaiting their turn to go and work. Please note that this year we had an uncommonly long and hard winter, and in the west, where important railway works will be done the roads and land are still frozen, and it is no use sending labourers there. This year I sent away only 70, while in previous years at this time I sent away more than a thousand. ' Please note that many of your men declare that they are stonecutters, and that you promised them I would have them employed in this quality. I never wrote this. * Many of these men said that they did not intend to work on railways, bu$ jto obtain from me free transportation to British Columbia, and then with very little money to go to Michel and work in the coal mines. 1 You will understand how all this annoys me. I am not responsible for the extremely cold season that prevents the companies from starting work. ' No one has sent men away yet, and I have only sent 70. ( In conclusion, so as to eliminate trouble, from this moment do not send me any more passengers, and if you like to send some, please inform me how many are coming (as I asked you in my letter of March 1), and every man must have my business card with your office stamp on, and they must be warned that they must wait for their turn to go to work. Please, in the notice that you send me, state that you have warned theni that they will have to await their turn. Also please send me a list with the names of the pasengers you send me. Outside of these conditions, I am sorry to say that I could not accept the responsibility of giving work to your passengers. Please inform them that I will send them to work on railway construction and that they will have to work with pick and shovel. * If, afterwards, some roadmaster may chose of them for some special work it will be all* the better for them but I cannot guarantee to employ men in any particular quality. ' Yours truly, 'ANTONIO CORDASCO, 'Per A. GANNA. Q. That is a pretty good letter? A. I see something good on this letter, but Ganna wrote without my authorization. Q. You are to blame? A. Of course I am to blame. Q. You remember a man named Ludwig,' of Chiasso? A. I wrote him last fall, I did it myself, I admit this. Q. (Looking over letter.) That is to Ludwig, I see? A. I vrrote to Chiasso. Q. When? A. Last fall some time. Q. To Ludwig, the 18th October ? A. Some time like that. Q. The letter reads : 1 MONTREAL, October 18, 1903. 'Mr. LUDWIG, Passenger Agent, ' Chiasso. 1 By the same mail I am sending you a package of my business cards, asking you to hand them to the passengers, or better to the labourers that you will send directly to me. ' Please note that work here is never short and anybody you will send to me per- sonally are sure to be employed. In summer you may send hundreds of them and be sure that as soon as they arrive they will find work at once. ' To satisfy the Italians better, I have opened a banking office of which I send a circular to you and from which you will see that I can do all that they request. ' Awaiting for some shipment and to hear from you soon. ' Yours truly,. { 4 ^/"\T-TY 4 r^^Xy^ Canada any amount of men for the sake of reaping so much by the payment of commissions from some of the interested companies. Q. I think the evidence fully bears you out? A. It is the general opinion in Montreal that many foreign labourers are brought here for the sake of earning com- mission moneys and profit for individuals who are well known. Q. Does the Provincial Government bring out immigrants from Italy? A. No. Q. Does the Dominion Government? A. No. The class of immigrants that Canada wants to be brought here are picked up by the proper officials of the Dominion Government, by the proper agent of our government and I do not recognize the right of any private individual ta speak in the name of Canada to the foreign labourers and induce them to come here. We have our proper officials who will not deceive the foreign labourer, and, consequently, I would say that these private enterprises bring- ing poor men to Canada should be checked. Special legislation should be incorporated defining those who shall have the right to represent Canada abroad, because the good name of Canada and the credit of Canada may be imperilled. 110 REPORT QF ROJAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 By Mr. Mowat: ' Q. Have you given this subjeect enough attention to say definitely what in your opinion such amendments to the law should be? A. Well, yes. We should have some clauses inserted in our immigration laws, for example, empowering our quarantine officials to examine what is the standing of the immigrants coming to Canada, and be- fore they have been brought to Canada and rejecting those who are unfitted and at the same time making it necessary for the speculators who have been deceiving these peop!e to send them back. By the Commissioner: Q. T^he immigration acts should be amended? A. That is what I think. Adjourned until 2 :30. MONTREAL, QUE., July 23, 1904. COURT HOUSE, 2.30 P.M. The Commission resumes. COUNT FRANCESCO MAZZA, being sworn. By Mr. Mowat: Q. What is your first name Count? A. Francesco. Q. Are you Consul General in Canada for His Majesty the King of Italy? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long have you been in that position? A. I took my position the 9th August, 1901. Q. Have you had previous experience in the consular service ? A. Yes, I have held very important positions. Q. Is it part of your duty to attend to the welfare of Italians ? A. It is my duty. Q. Were you aware of the sudden influx of Italian labourers in May last? A. Yes. Q. Was it reported to you or did you learn how many were without employment here at one time, in round numbers ? A. I think 400 or 500 without food here. Q. Have you anything to do with the bringing of these people into the country ? A. Myself. Q. Yes ? A. I have in my power to regulate the immigration of Italians here and my duty is to prevent as much as possible the bringing in of more than necessary. Q. Not more than necessary ? A. Yes, then my duty is to protect the immigrants and not permit immigrants to come if there is no work for them. Q. Where you in a position to ascertain what was the reason for this excessive immigration ? A. It seems . that persons interested in having immigrants come to Canada so as to employ them have written to Italy and sent advertisements in order to have people come here. Q.. That is not with your approval or with the approval of the Italian Govern- ment? A. On the contrary, it is in opposition to the wishes of the Italian Govern- ment and the wish of the Consulate. Q. Do you yourself take any steps to bring over immigrants ? A. Yes; I take {steps in writing the government telling them not to allow people to come here in very (great numbers, and after, when I saw that people were coming here in great numbers, I was obliged to wire to my government in order to give instructions to forbid immi- gration into Canada, and I wired twice. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 111 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Q. You cabled twice to your government to do what they could to prevent this immigration? A. Yes, to give advice not to come into Canada to prevent by all means the coming to Canada of these people. Q. Did you go to see the mayor of Montreal to confer with him, Mayor Laporte? A. Personally I have not conferred with the mayor, but our Italian society that wa3 instituted here, and was subsidized by the Italian government, has taken steps. Its .president has taken steps to see the mayor of Montreal, in order to make provisions for all our immigrants here without food and without means of living, because the Italian Immigration Society had spent too much money without authorization. Q. Had spent too much money? A. Too much money. We had money for es- tablishing an immigrant house of refuge. Q. In Windsor street? A. Yes. Q. Is the work of the Italian Immigration Aid Society carried on with your ap- proval? Do you approve of it? A. Certainly. Q. What means do you suggest to the Commissioner to prevent -this abuse that has arisen. What is your suggestion, what do you say is necessary so that this thing cannot occur again? A. I think it will stop if all these agencies are prevented from making a business of bringing Italian immigrants here. Their work should be stopped. iThat is my opinion. Q. Have you made representations to that effect to the Italian government? A. I have. Q. Do you know whether the Dominion government has agencies in Italy to en- courage immigrants to come? A. I do not know. They certainly send many adver- tisements. I do not know if the Canadian agents have sent out these, but I know very well interested people here have sent advertisements and letters. Q. These private agencies? A. Yes. Q. Then it is your opinion that there should be some system to prevent . indis- criminate immigration ? A. I told you my idea .is not to allow these private individ- uals to make a business of that, and to prohibit such action. Q. Is it your idea that it should only be done through an incorporated society? A. Certainly my opinion is that. Q. Was the class of these people -that arrived here such as to require protection, or were they able to look out for themselves ? A. They were able to look out for them- selves, take care o.f themselves, but they have very limited means of living, having been here so long without lodgings and food. Q. Are they people who look to the government to act as a class or act individual- ly ? A. I cannot perfectly understand your question. Q. Are they people that act as a class altogether or act as individuals, are they accustomed to take responsibility for themselves without coaching ? A. I cannot answer your question. By Mr. Internoscia: Q. The Court does not understand the purpose of the question: Are you familiar with the work of Signor Candori, was he brought from Italy for this purpose? A. No, he was hore and the society under which Candori is employed, the Italian Immi- gration Aid Society, has been incorporated in Canada. Q. Are you satisfied 'with his conduct of the office ? A. I am satisfied, and I think all the committee, or the great part of the committee of the Italian Immigra- tion Society is very well satisfied with his services. By the Commissioner: Q. As consul you report to the home government on the condition of the immi- grants from time to time ? A. Yes, certainly. Q. What is the nature of your report to your government on the condition of the immigrants? A. I report the conditions of the immigrants from my observation and what their status is. 112 REPORT OF R07AL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD* VII., A. 1905 Q. Do you report on the advisability of sending out immigrants to this country ? A. Certainly. I reported that two years ago that Canada was a country where well regulated immigration could be directed. Q. Have you reported that there should be a large immigration into Canada in 1904 ? A. Not at all, I reported in 1903 that if the Grand Trunk Pacific was to be constructed it would mean the employment of a great number of Italians in Canada, but when I saw that the Grand Trunk Pacific was not to be constructed, I advised that it would not be possible to employ a large number of people here. Q. When did you make that report again ? A. I think the commencement of this year, and I advised the government to make provision to prevent people coming here in winter, because in the winter time they commenced to come here. Q. How long does it take to come over from Italy to Montreal ? A. To Mont- real, I think one month or less. Q. Are your reports published ? A. No, I do not think exactly in print, but in- formation is taken there for immigrants and the Bulletino d'Immigrazione published several advertisements telling people not to come because there were too many Italians in Canada already. Q. When was that published ? A. In April or May. Q. Of this or last year ? A. This year. Q. Had your report to the government anything to do with the bringing out of the large number of immigrants this year ? A. Yes, I have asked the government to make inquiry into the cause. We had a complaint from several Italians here who were brought here by letter of Mr. Cordosco. Q. You complained to the home government about that letter? A. I complained and I requested my government to make inquiries in order to assure me if that letter existed. We had a complaint here, the immigration society here had received a com- plaint, .and I transmitted it to my government. Q. What I asked was this : Would you think your reports to the Italian govern- ment brought out any men? A. On the contrary. Q. What efforts did you make to find employment for these men when they came here? A. I sent several times to the C.P.R., and saw Sir Thomas Shaughnessy and Mr. McNicol, not only for the men here, but also for a great number of men at Michel, Alberta, B.C. Q. What success? A. I succeeded in obtaining employment of almost all the people who were in this place. Q, When? A. I think in May. Q. All these here? A. Yes. Q. Who employed them? A. The C.P.R Q Through whom did they employ them? A. I do not know the contractor I do not exactly know, through the president of the Winnipeg or Pembroke Western Rail- way. I do not know. Q. Were they compelled to register with Mr. Cordasco, in his office, before going- out? A. I do not know, these people were at Michel. Q. Do you remember receiving a letter of which this is a copy? A. Yes, I re- ceived it, and I received other letters from that direction, but after having inquired I found that these people were all employed. Q. This letter is dated May 6, 1904, and is addressed to yourself as Italian Consul General. It reads : 'MONTREAL, May 6, 1904. ' COUNT MAZZA., ' Italian Consul General, Montreal. 'DEAR SIR, Our Vice-President has requested me to communicate to you the following telegram, which has been received from W. Whyte, Second Vice-President at Winnipeg, dated May 6. 02V ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 113 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. ' Italians Crow's Nest Pass 'have been offered work a l:er, 1903. Q. How many inward or outward tickets have you sold for all the steamers? A. I think about 140 to 145. Q. You remember those brought into Canada? A. I sold tickets here from my office, 375 St. James. Q. Do you know Angelo de Santis, 118 Canal Street, Buffalo ? A. Possibly I had a letter; I don't know him personally. Q. Do you remember sending him this letter: 130 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 'MONTREAL, Feb. 19, 1904. * Mr. ANGELO DE SANTIS, ' 118 Canal Street, Buffalo, N.Y. 'I took note of the contents of your last letter and I enclose herewith a copy of the rules which have to be followed by those who, by their own free will, enter their name for the first shipments. 'But I do not take any responsibility to engage men as masons or stone cutters. I need this year nearly 10,000 men, but all of them must be able to work with pick and shovel. 'If you like you may engage men for the first shipments, but I do not take any responsibility, only take those men who give their name by their own free will, arid send me the list of the names very clearly written with a mark that shows they have paid $1 each for office and inscription fees. ' Please enclose with the list the money order and I will enter their names pro- gressively, and when their turn will come I will ask for them. ' Remember that I do not force anybody to give their names. ' The railway fare from Buffalo to Montreal has to be paid by the men, a free pass from Buffalo being given in July and August only, but then the season is short and the earnings little. ' Yours truly. A. I think I saw this letter. Q. Was this letter sent according to your instructions? A. I think so. Q. You will not go back on that? A. Well, of course I cannot quite remember the whole letter. Q. You say you remember the letter ? A. I remember something about it. Q. Then it is your letter? A. I did not write it myself. Q. No, you only wrote to foreigners, those outside of the country. You always got your clerk to write what you wanted? A. I was in bed for two months and my clerk showed me the mail that came in the morning and I told him to answer. Some- times he answered one thing for another. Q. When he went to your house he always brought you the letters? A. Those which came from Montreal, and I told him to answer these, but to look out for 'any- thing that might be important. Q. You told him how to answer? A. How to answer letters not to put me in trouble. Q. Did you expect trouble? A. Well, he might write one thing for another. Q. What kind of trouble were you expecting? A. I do not know; he might write everything, saying send 10,000. Q. Did you think he was doing this? A. I do not know. Q. You did not think he was a dangerous sort of man? A. I wanted to be sure to protect myself. Q. You rememeber this letter at any rate? A. I heard this. Q. At the time it was written? A. I do not know if I was any better. Q. You say : ' I took notice of the contents of your last letter and I enclose here- with a copy of the rules which have to be followed by those who, by their own free will, enter their names for the first shipments.' Q. You remember that? A. Not quite. I want to look at the letter. (Looks at the letter.) 19th February, I was just at that time in bed and did not write the letter. I think I just said to Mr. Ganna, this is the spirit of the letters you write them. Q. And he brought all the letters he had received before for you? A. All letters addressed to Oordasco he brought to me, to my bed. Q. And he read them to you ? A. I did not do that myself. Q. Yes, you did ? A. Yts. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 131 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Q. Told, him to answer ? A. Yes. Q. Then you remember that letter from Angelo de Santis, 118 Canal street, Buffalo ? A. I do not know, I might remember if I could see what is wanted. Q. 'If you like you may engage men for the first shipments, but I do not take any responsibility, only take those men who give their names by their own free will, and send me the list of the names very clearly written with a mark that shows they have paid one dollar each for office and inscription fees.' Q. You remember that letter ? A. I remember every letter. Q. That is what you told him to write ? A. As far as that. Q. You think that is right ? A. So far as that is it is right. Q. ' Please enclose list and money order and I will enter their names progressively and when their turn will come I will ask for them.' Q. Is that right ? A. Yes. Q. ' Kemember that I do not force anybody to give their names ' ? A. That is what I told Ganna. Q. ' The railway fare from Buffalo to Montreal is to be paid by the men free, free passes being only given in July and August, but then the season is short and the earnings little' ? A. So far as that goes it is correct. Q. Will you go any further ? A. Your Honour has got the letter you can see what is in it. Q. You think this is correct; is that the way you instructed him ? A. Well, a man reads letter first. Q. You think he wrote that letter according to your instructions ? A. I never told him to say ' I need this year nearly ten thousand men.' Q. All the letter is right but that ? A. I never authorized him to ask anybody for 10,000. Q. ' But I do not take any responsibility; only take those men who give their names by their own free will.' Q. That is right ? A. Yes. Q. ' I need this year nearly 10,000 men, but all of them must be able to work with pick and shovel' ? A. I never instructed Ganna to ask for 10,000 or 5,000 or 15,000 men. Q. Everything but that is right ? A. I never authorized 10,000 men. Q. This letter appears to have been sent dated January 26, 1904, to Luigi Scarcella as follows: MONTREAL, January 26, 1904. Mr. Luigi Scarcella, 243 Kideau Street, Ottawa, Ont. SIR, I reply to your letter of the 23rd inst., of which content I took note, but in this moment I do not know where I can find work for you. Next season I shall be in need of 10,000 men, whose work will be a heavy one, and as I understand in your letter you do not like to work with the shovel. Jn the beginning of March please to write again and I will see if I can do any- thing for you, but I cannot promise anything. Yours truly. A. Yes, sir. Q. Also a similar letter dated Feb. 9, 1904, and addressed to ' Mr. Aristide Guerrieri. P. O. Box 11, Mapleton Dep., Pa. Your letter (without any date) I am sorry to say that I shall not 'be able to find any work that may suit you. I find work for thousands of men and this year I shall 36612 132 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 be in need of 10,000 of them, but I need only men that can work with shovel and pick. Yours truly/ A. Yes, sir. Q. Now here are eighty-nine letters to people in the United States and one or two in Canada, written in January, February, March and April, in which you ask them to send the money and you will send them out according to the order in which their names are registered ? A. I never asked money. Q. Never ? A. I never wrote letter telling them to send $10 or any dollars. These men write to me first, and I told them if you want to be registered in my books you will have to pay $1 for each man and an interpreter $10, and then I will call you when- ever your turn comes, and do not come to Montreal until I send for you. Q. Will you look at this and see if these names are correct. They are the names of men to whom you addressed letters for the purpose of having them send money, 89 I think I counted. These are the names of persons to whom similar letters were sent in January, February, March and April; 89 I find altogether ? A. Well, I guess Your Honour is right. Q. You think I am right ? A. These letters I received I never asked for any money. Q. You did not refuse registration without money? A. They wrote to have work, and I said if you want to be registered it will cost you $1 for my trouble. Q. Will you read this letter and to whom it is addressed ; read it out aloud so that we may all hear it. MONTREAL, January 27, 1904. 'Mr. GIUSEPPE Di SCHIAVI, ' 151 Acorn St., Providence, K.I. ' I send you back your letter, which I cannot take into consideration, for I can- not enter your name in my books only on the same conditions as everybody else, which conditions I explained to you clearly in my previous letter. Yours truly.' Q. You would not register this man without money ? A. No use working for glory. Q. The dollar was the object in view. He wanted to enter his name without money? A. He did. Q. And you would not do it ? A. No. Q. There are several letters of that nature? A. Probably, Your Honour. Q. You would not enter without money? A. Because I pay money myself and people have got to pay me. Q. A number of foremen registered in November and December of last year, did they not ? A. Yes. Q. For this year's work? A. Yes. Q. They have not gone out yet? A. That was not my fault, Q. Some men registered in March and April this year? A. Yes. Q. Foremen with gangs? A. Yes. Q. They have gone out? A. One or two. Q. Why did they go out before the other men who had registered in November and December? A. They had better gangs, and could supply better men than the others, that is my reason. Q. Can you tell me which gangs were better than the others ? A. Yes, I can, Your Honour. Q. Tell me then, look at your book, I want to see? A. I know the foremen and know what kind of men they have. Q. Tell me the foremen who did not have good labourers ? A. Get the book, Mr. Ganna. (This testimony was here interrupted for a few minutes in order to hear a couple of other witnesses who had to leave.) ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION m SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Mr. JOSEPH ALPHONSE RODIER, being sworn. By Mr. Mowat : Q. Are you a member of the Trades and Labour Council ? A. I would like better to have the questions put in French. I cannot perhaps make myself very intelligible in English. Q. We can get along very well; it will take a little longer. Are you a member of the Trades and Labour Council ? I shall have" no difficulty in understanding you, in{ speaking about your evidence, and think you may give it in that way ? A. i cannot do that ; it is too serious. By the Commissioner : Q. What is the matter, Mr. Mowat ? Mr. MOWAT. He does not want to give his evidence in English. By the Commissioner: Q. I am perfectly sure we can get along ; do your best, Mr. Rodier ? A. I beg pardon, Your Honour, I want to know perfectly well. Q. If you do not understand what Mr. Mowat asks let me know what your diffi- culty is and I will explain to you what I can? A. But I cannot answer in English. Will you put it in French. Q. Are you a member of the Trades and Labour Council ? A. I am a member cf the Trades and Labour Council. Q. Answer all the questions you understand in English in that way ? A. I cannot do that. Q. You will try please ? A. I will try, I am perfectly ready to try, but I know I cannot tell all. By Mr. Mowat: Q. Do you do editorial writing in the newspaper ' La Patrie ? ' A. Yes, sir. Q. You have been for some years ? A. No, for about eight months. Q. Have you given your attention as a member of the council, a labour writer and journalist to labour questions in Montreal ? A. Yes, for a long time. Q. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect on the labour market by the sudden influx of a number of unemployed labourers ? A. Yes. Q. What effect in your opinion would that have on the scale of wages ? A. To bring wages down, to dimmish the salary. Q. Is it your opinion that the labour market is sensitive to sudden changes? A. Yes, I understand your question well. Q. In the month of April there was a large number of Italians here who were ready to work and could not get it, what effect would that have on the scale of wages paid to residents of Montreal ? It is very hard to answer that question in English; I could give a better answer in French. Q. It is all right, Mr. Rodier. By the Commissioner : Q. You have been doing nicely, Mr. Rodier, please do your best ? A. .We have many organizations in Montreal, principally of labourers, who had the intention of asking more wages this spring, but when they found that we have so many strangers here they did not ask. I have heard many complaints that the Italians make low wages ; they work for lower wages than our people. I do not know if you understand. Q. We understand you perfectly. Now, Mr. Rodier, as a man taking an interest in labour questions, when did you first hear about this immigration of Italian labour- ers to Montreal ? A. I think, I am not quite sure, I think in April. Q. From whom did you hear about it ? A. I cannot remember; I saw many people in the streets. 365 12 134 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. But before they came did you hear anything about their coming ? A. Noth- ing at all. Q. From no source whatever ? A. I do not remember. Q. The matter was never talked over between yourself and others ? A. No. Q. Never mentioned a scheme to bring a lot of Italians here ? A. I do not re- member. Q. Just think if that was not talked over in your hearing ? A. I do not think so. Q. That is not very certain ? A. Well, I do not remember; it is possible, but .. do not remember. Q. It is possible ? A. Yes, because I speak every day about that question. Q. That is the reason you are here giving evidence, because >ou know a good deal about that question. Can you tell me when you first heard that there was likelv to be a large immigration of Italians into Montreal? A. I do not remember that I ever heard before we saw some of them in Montreal. Q. Not before then ? A. Not before that. Q. Did you not talk with any one who desired to get a large number into Montreal ? A. Not at all. Q. Not at all ? A. We talked in a general manner of immigration, not only of Italians; before that we talked many times and we saw by the newspapers and by what the Manufacturers' Association did and some circulars we received from England, we would have a big immigration this year. Q. Where did you hear that first? A. I heard that in the labour circles. They talked of that in their meetings. Q. Any public men who are not in labour circles suggested that a large number jf immigrants should be brought over ? A. Public men, what do you mean ? Q. You understand what a public man means, a man who takes an interest in public affairs ? A. In a general manner. Q. Well, by any one besides labourers? A. No. Q. You did not hear from any other than from your labour unions? A. No. Q. The labour unions were not anxious to bring over a lot of men ? A. They did not want them. Q. Who did want them? A. The manufacturers, I suppose, and the great com- panies. Q. Do not suppose, I want to know from your own knowledge ? A. I don't know only from what I have heard. Q. That is what I want, from whom did you hear? A. In newspapers. Q. You understand, Mr. Rodier, this commission requires me to find out why so many immigrants came into this country at one time, and all the circumstances sur- rounding their coming in. That is the reason I am asking you these questions, to find out how these men came in here, to see what was the source from whence sprang this intention to bring a large number into Montreal at one time? A. I regret I do not understand English very well. I "did not hear that by any manufacturers or any others, but it was the subject of general conversation, and when I saw that in the papers, by .documents I have seen in the papers, by documents coming f rom^ England, we saw by ithe advertising in the papers that we were going to have a large immigration to Mon- treal, that is what I know. Q. That is the only source from which you knew that ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Not from conversations that you had with public men, manufacturers or any others? A. No. Q. Then, can you tell me the result of such a large influx at that time upon the labouring class in Montreal. What was the actual result ? A. They have only kept wages down. Q. Were wages reduced in consequence? A. I do not know that wages were reduced, but we are of the opinion generally that wages are lower here in Montreal on account of that immigration. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 135 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. Q. Haw much are labourers receiving to-day ? A. Labourers receive $1.50. Q. That is the usual pay ? A. Yes. Q. What are Italians employed on the street railway getting? A. I have not seen the books of the company, but many people told me that they receive only from $1.15 to $1.25. Q. That is part of the duty of your committees ; to inquire into ? A. Yes, but I cannot go before the company to see their books. It is also very hard to get that from the labourers themselves when they are Canadians, because they do not want to tell us ; they are afraid we are going to make a complaint against them. Q. I agree with you there. A. We tried many times to get information, but they have refused to speak. Q. Or tell you what was the wage? A. Exactly. Q. That has been my own experience if a man gets $1 a day and if you ask him he says $1.50? A. Yes. Air. EGBERT M. HANNAFORD, being sworn. By Mr. Mowat: Q. Are you an engineer? A. Yes. Q. Employed by whom? A. By the Montreal Street Kailway Company. Q. How long have you been in that position? A. I have been in that position for a year. Q. Has the Montreal Street Railway Company "been putting down new rails within the last six months? A. Yes. Q. Employing labour for that purpose? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is your scale of wages now for track layers? A. Goes all the way from $1.25 to $1.50, in some cases to $1.60 to old employees. Q. Has that scale of wages changed since March last? A. No. Q. Always been the same? A. Yes. Q. Eor how long? A. Ever since I have been with the company for about two years. Q. Are you in a position to speak with authority as to this? A. Yes. Q. Was not the scale reduced this spring when this large number of labourers came ? A. Not with us. Q. Was it in other occupations? A. That I cannot speak about. Q. Not on any of the lines, near lines? A. None of ours. Q. Did you employ some of these Italians? A. We may have; I do not know. We did not go to any agencies. Q. Who would know that? A. Well, it is the men themselves, because the men themselves come to us to be employed. Q. Who would know whether your company employed some of the Italians who came here this spring in such large numbers ? A. Some of our Italian sub-foremen. Q. Have you got some of them yet on the line ? A. We have. Q. Do you know what they were paid ? A. Sub-foremen ? Q. No, labouringmen ? A. $1.25. Q. Not less? A. No. Q. No change made? A. No. By the Commissioner: Q. How many hours a day do 'they work? A. 10 hours, sometimes longer, over- time. Q. Do they get paid for overtime? A. Yes, the same as ordinary time. Q. That is 124 cents or 15 cents? A. 12 cents. Q. Who get 124 cents? A. Ordinary labourers. 136 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1005 Q. How many Italians have you in your employment? A. Well, roughly speak- ing, I would say we have about 300. Q. And what do they receive? A. Some of them get as high as $1.37. Q. Foremen? A. Sub-foremen. Q. And ordinary labourers get 12 cents an hour? A. Ordinary labourers get 12 cents an hour, although some of them get 13 cents, a sliding scale. Q. Can you tell me how many of these Italians coming from Italy or from the United States have been employed by you? A. That I cannot say without going over the pay-rolls and taking out our old men. . Q. How many old men had you last year that remained this spring? A. Must have had 80 anyway. Q. And you have 300 men? A. About 300 now. Q. What is the rate of wages in Montreal to ordinary labour in other depart- ments? A. I believe it is $1.50, that is paid by the city. Q. But you can find plenty of men to work for $1.25? A. We do that because we give the men more permanent employment than the city. Q. What do you mean? A. We give them snow shovelling in winter, almost con- tinually. Q. How many will you have in October next ? A. In October we ought to have about 125. Q. How many do you keep through the winter ? A. That is a sliding scale, because Italians do not like to work in winter. Last winter they went out on strike. Q. Do not like snow ? A. No. Q. Do you know how this influx affected other trades where unskilled labour was required ? A. Not personally. Q. You do not know personally ? A. No. Q. You have no knowledge at all ; have you made inquiries ? A. No. Q. Well, you can get any number you wish at $1.25 per day ? A. They come to us : we do not have to look for them. Mr. JAMES B. MACK, being sworn. By Mr. Mowal : Q. I understand you are vice-president of the Dominion Trades and Labour Council ? A. I am. Q. You for some years have given attention to labour matters ? A. For 22 years. Q. I am told that you have a local council, and if I mistake not you are one of the founders ? A. Yes, one of the founders of the Montreal Trade and Labouv Council. Q. Will you state your opinion of the effect on the scale of wages in a city like Montreal, caused by the bringing in of large numbers of foreign labourers at one time ? A. The effect of bringing in large numbers of foreign labourers, in my opinion, would be a reduction in wages and probably prolonged hours of labour. When the labour market is flooded wages are not liable to increase, rather to decrease, and it is a benefit to capitalists or companies who employ large numbers of unskilled labourers to havo a large immigration in order to have work performed at less cost. Q. It is to the advantage of these companies to have a number of men available ? A. Certainly it is. Q. What do you know of this large number of Italians who were brought hone unable to get work in April last ? A. In my capacity of newspaper man, I saw large numbers going about the streets. Q. You are a journalist as well ? A. I am labour editor of the ' Star/ In going about I am looking for information, and I met large numbers in our streets, parks, ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 137 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. crowds everywhere near the Windsor station, of men out of employment. I met Mr. Catelli one day in April. He said : ' Mr. Mack, we have a big lot of Italians in Mon- treal.' I told him I had seen them, and he asked * what are we going to do with them, they are now in a starving condition? ' I said: ' Mr. Catelli, you had better interview the mayor of the city. Our people will not have people starving in Montreal/ Mr. Catelli had an interview with the mayor, and held several meetings, and appeals to the public charity appeared in the papers every day, and after a time these people seemed to get employment and large numbers of them left the city. Italians came to the ' Star ' in large numbers ; they were anxious to get statements in the paper. They said they had been brought here by speculators, men who wanted to get from cue to ten dollars for securing employment. They stated that they had been grossly deceived and they made these statements to us. Q. You heard what Mr. Hannaford said here as to the scale of wages paid by the Montreal Street Eailway Company ; what is your opinion ? A. Well, I do not think that the Montreal Street Kail way Company is not more generous than other employers of labour, and when they can get men for $1.10 they are not going to pay -$1.25; that is not a business proposition. I do not know what the Montreail Street Hail way pay people, but why should they pay the average man $1.25 when they can get the same for $1.15, that is not business. Q. Can you tell the Commission of certain classes of labour wherein the wage^ did go down ? A. I have been told that in various classes wages have been reduced. By the Commissioner : Q. Mr. Mack, whose names did those Italians who went to your office mention in connection with bringing them from Italy? A. They mentioned Mr. Cordasco and several others. At that time I was not so much interested in it as now. Q. Did they tell you the methods by which they were induced to come ? A. They had been induced by letters, circulars and some of them cards, some on their own responsibility. These had wished to come to see if there were any good positions in Canada, more wages; no need for any man to be out of employment in the Dominion of Canada. Q. Did you hear before they came if there was a scheme to bring out immigrants to Montreal? A, For some time I have known that efforts have been made to bring men to Montreal. I know that a Mr. Leopold, who has offices at Charing Cross, Lon- don, England, has been very active in inducing men to come here. Q. Does he reach to Italy? A. I guess he reaches everywhere; he does a large business. Q. We have not heard his name in connection with this influx? A. Well, I am just telling you. Q. Have you heard anything from any of our public men in Montreal that a large influx was to be brought into Montreal this spring? A. No, sir. I have not heard from business or public men. I have heard in labour circles that efforts were made to bring out large numbers of men to this country in the event of trouble on the docks ;and large works going to be constructed. Q. Just so. What is the minimum wage paid labourers in Montreal to-day? A. 'I should imagine about 90c. or $1. * Q. You think that is the lowest? A. I think so. Q. And the maximum? A. Of skilled labour ? Q. Unskilled labour? A. Well, of course, there are three or four classes of un- skilled abour ; would you call dockmen unskilled labour ? Q. I think not, they have a trade. That requires special qualifications; could Italian labourers do that work ? A. No, they would be practically useless. Q. They are good for the pick and shovel, such work as ditching, road-making, &c. ? A. I should imagine they would get all the way from 90c. to $1.50 a day. Q. Are there many Italians without work in Montreal? A. I am told quite a large number. 138 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. About how many ? A. Between 500 and 1,000. Q. Unable to get employment? A. Unable to get employment. Q. How are they supported ? A. They are supported by the Italian charity organi- zation, by the central charity organization of the city, and they probably get a little work. Q. Occasionally, so as to help them on? A. Yes, they have no permanent work. Mr. CORDASCO, re-called. By the Commissioner : Q. Do you know Signor Silvio of Portland, Maine ? A. I heard his name. Q. Did you authorize this letter to be sent to that signor ? A. Yes. Q. You authorized that letter to be sent? A. Yes. Q. You wrote : ' MONTREAL, Jan. 28, 1904. ' Mr. FILAURIO SILVIO, 1 101 Fore Street, 1 Portland, Me, 'I received your letter in which you say that you want to pass your men in the list of Sabatino Sgamurra. ' I cannot do that for this Sgamurra is neither entered in my books nor has paid, as you and your men did, the office and inscription fees. ' If Mr. Sgamurra will send $10 as interpreter, and $1 for each man, I shall enter his name in my books and I shall not have any difficulty in putting your lists toget- her, for you have paid. ' The time when your turn will come I will call you. ' Yours truly.' Q. You would not give another man the benefit of adding his list to a foreman who had already paid, and you demanded $10 more? A. I asked. Q. You demanded that $10 before allowing the lists to be put together. What paper do you advertise in in New York? A. Well, I never advertised before, but about six months ago a party on a paper there wrote me a letter and asked me to give it an advertisement. I think it is named l L'Operari.' Q. Where is he? I think he is No. 4 Mulberry Street? A. That is not the name, perhaps you have got another man. Q. Capparelli ? A. That is the man. Q. What is the name of his paper ? A. ' L'Operari.' Q. When did you put your advertisement in that paper? A. Five or six months ago. Q. Have you got a copy? A. No. Q. Did he send you the paper? A. Yes. Q. Where is it? A. I have not got it. Q. What was the advertisement about? A. Something about shipping money, same as advertisement in ' Corriere del Canada,' saying that I would place the men. I made that advertisement myself. Q. On the 18th January, 1904, you wrote to Mr. V. Capparelli : 'MONTREAL, Jan. 28, 1904. 'Mr. V. CAPPARELLT, 1 4 Mulberry St., New York. ' I have received your letter and I beg to enclose herewith check for $10 on said advertisement, &c., as per agreement. Please acknowledge receipt. ' Please make an article speaking about 'the negligence of this Consul and Italian Immigration Aid Society. OX ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 139 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36b. 'I am from San Donate Ninea, and Mr. Cordasco, the lawyer, is my uncle. ' By the same mail I am sending you my cut. 1 Yours truly. 7 Q. Always put your picture in? A. I expect them to; I do not try to deny this, but this work was done by notary. Q. Will you give me a copy ? A. Will you let Mr. Ganna get this. Q. For this afternoon? A. If there is one he will get it. Q. When was this arrangement in writing made between Mr. Burns and you? A. In writing, Your Honour; there was nothing in writing. When he was talking about taking $1 for the men? Q. Yes? A. It took place some time in the month of April or May. Q. What time in April? A. I cannot remember the date. Q. You cannot remember the date? A. No. Q. Look at your accounts and tell me the date? A. Some time in April, I can- not say the date. Q. Is that the date, April 13th (handing paper to witness) ? A. Yes. Q. That was the date? A. That was the time he spoke. Q. Now, you wrote Mr. Burns on the 29th April, in which you say : ' As you know personally that I do not receive any salary from your company, only paid by the day or by the hour, if some fees come to me from Italian labourers this is an honest deal and no one was or will be forced if he does not wish to do so.' Q. Was that true; were you paid at that date by the day or by the hour as you mention in your letter of the 29th April? A. He began to pay me by the hour, by the half day, and if I did nothing he gave me nothing. Q. You understood that on the 29th April; look at that letter? A. Well, that was made in April some time. Q. And here you have made a charge on the 18th April? A. I was not agreeing with this agreement. Q. So that there was really no agreement? A. Just a verbal agreement. Q. I do not know who to believe, Cordasco or Cordasco's letter ? A. I did not know the nature of it. Q. Now you say one thing in your letter and another in the accounts, which is correct. So you were still paid hy the day ? A. I was paid even before April. Q. You were paid by the day? A. By the full day. Q. That is what you are charging now? A. Not going to charge anything now by the day. This mus"; be stated, because I understand Mr. Burns told me he would not agree to give it. Q. Was this $1 spoken of in order to give evidence to this Commission? A. No. Q. No trouble in your mind? A. Nothing. Q. Not to provide against trouble ? A. No. Q. Mr. Burns has not paid you a single cent since. The reason why is because he had some trouble with that judgment and probably wanted to see how the judgment was going to work out, that is why? A. He kept my money back anyway. Q. So you were still charging up to the 29th April? A. There is the letter there. Q. And you say that letter is true? A. Yes, I cannot pay expenses over $100 per month in office besides my house. Q. How much in all? A. About $300. Q. $300? A. With my wages, clerks and my office and everything in office prob- ably cost more than $300 besides my house. Q. Never mind the house. Did you not say that it was only $40 for the rent of your office ? A. $45 for Ganna, $90 for Cordasco, then Mosco and paying women for scrubbing. Q. How long have you been paying Mosco ? A. Maybe couple of months. 140 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD Vfl., A. 1905 Q. How had you paid him before ? A. I gave him so much by the job. Q. How much? A. Sometimes $1, $2 or $3 I cannot say. Q. By the month ? A. It was not fixed by the month. Q. How long- have you been paying Mosco $6 per month? A. Two or three months, I can give it to you. Q. Two or three months? A. Yes. Q. And now you pay Mosco $6 per month? A. $6 per week. Q. Since when have you been so paying him? A. Two months ago. Before that by the job, when working for Canadian Pacific Railway. Q. Now do not say that? A. I can prove it. Q. That is not correct? A. I say this, "I have something to prove that. Mosco will not swear to that. Q. Will you show me how much you paid Mosco in December? A. There is nothing in the book, no entry. Q. You always kept that sort of thing out of the book? You have no book to show it? A. Nothing at all. Q. You have some receipt attached to bill signed by him ? A. Before I had put them in. Q. You have told him to swear that you have paid him $5, $10, $15, $20 before that? A. Yes. Q. Why did you tell him to swear that? A. You can get Mosco at any time. Q. I do not think that is quite correct, Mr. Cordasco, so far as Mr. Mosco is con- cerned. Q. Mr. Skinner deducted some money from your wages or accounts for December lost? A. Yes. Q. You raised some trouble about that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is that the letter you wrote to Mr.. Skinner? A. Yes, I just got it. I am paid. Q. That is the letter you wrote to Mr. Burns ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. You complained about some $26 there? A. I got $26. Q. Mr. Burns directed Mr. Skinner to pay you? A. Because it was due for get- ting the office cleaned, and I got the money back. Q. But in so far as the other portion, he would not interfere? A. Would not give aie a dollar. Q. In that you say that the money that you earned was for going to meet No. 8 and No. 2 ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Nothing more? A. Looking after Italians, placing them in boarding houses. Q. Not when you were sick ? A. Had somebody else. Q. Did Francesco Cordasco work for the company? A. No, Gagliardi. Q. You wrote to Mr. Burns on February 8 last : 1 Dear Sir, I have worked for you December, 1901, December, 1902, and I met only No. 2, and I was paid my five dollars without any trouble.' A. That is right. ;Q. Just met No. 2? A. Looking after men. Q. You say : 1 1 met only No. 2 and I was paid my five dollars without any trouble' ? -A. I did. Q. ' Now, this year I was cut off $20 in October, $20 in November, and $66 in De- cember, 13 days and Lancy puts all the blame on Skinner, so I can see that Skinner has went on like blind and crazy man. He went over my bill and cut off 13 days from one month, which I have worked the harder in the years.' A. That is right. Q. Mr. Skinner would not allow that even if Mr. Burns said so ? A. I don't know. Q. He did not allow it ? A. I don't know how they fixed it up. Q. You say that in 1901 you always got your five dollars even when you only met No. 2 ? A. Yes, and looking after the men. ON ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 141 SESSIONAL, PAPER No. 36b. Q. Not much looking after men when meeting No. 2 ? A. Have conducted men to boarding houses. Q. Are these amounts for 1902 or 1903? A. I think so. Q. Five dollars for every day, Saturdays and Sundays, during six months? A. Because I worked every day. Q. Sunday and Saturday ? A. Met the men every day. Q. Will you kindly let me know what you were doing during the months of, say, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November and December on any of these days ? A. I cannot tell you. ^ Q. Can you tell me what you were doing on any of these Sundays ? A. Met the trains. Q. How long were you at train? A. Sometimes they are on time and sometimes four or five hours late. Q. Not on time in general? A. I do not say that they are behind all the time; some days they are and we had to be there. Q. How long would you be there? A. To take men away from train? Q. How long? A. Take some time. Q. How long ? A. Some weeks men come on every train. Q. What men came on No. 2 ? A. Sometimes none. Q. A great many times none? A. Yes. I went there and came home and reported no men . Q. That is five dollars. That is how you work up accounts against the Canadian Pacific Railway. How would the Canadian Pacific Railway know if they were correct or incorrect? A. I put in my bill. Q. By whom were they certified ? A. I gave them to Mr. Burns. Q. Mr. Burns certified them and that is how you made money easily during these years, getting 'five dollars a day for such work? A. Probably there was translation. Q. Now, is not translation an additional charge ? A. I get five dollars. Q. Just for these days ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And yet you made an agreement that you were to get paid according to the number of hours you were working. This was done in 1902, and Mr. Skinner was the first one to carry that agreement out, to make you carry it out? A. My agreement was, I had supposed Q. Mr. Skinner was the first man to object ? A. Mr. Skinner was the first man who ever did the thing. Q. This was in 1903, you were sending in your bills until Mr. Skinner cut some off ? A. I have worked every day and got paid for it. Q. Although a great number of times there would not be an Italian coming to the city of Montreal ? A. Sometimes. Q. A great number ? A. I said some. Q. I want you to give me something definite ? A. If you want me to say, a few times. Q. How many days ? A. I cannot state. Q. How many times did you translate ? A. Very often. Q. Who did this translation for you ? A. Cordasco did not do it. Ganna put it in better English than I could. % Q. Do you remember Gaetano Lapatria ? A. Yes. Q. What was the trouble with him ? A. He shipped two or three gangs the firsc time and then did not come to me at all, tried to go alone. . Q. He was a good man when you shipped him ? A. I say he was. Q. He was a good man, was he ? A. A nice fellow. Q. A good worker, I mean ? A. Yes. Q. How much did he give you the first year ? A. I do not remember, $10 or $20. This year he tried to get around me and not pay anything. Q. He would not go to you, afterwards he went to the roadmaster direct ? A. Yes, went to roadmaster. 142 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. On April 23 you wrote to Mr. Burns about Mr. Lapatria? A. I think so. Q. Is this your letter ? A. Yes. Q. Did you write that ? A. I wrote most of it and got Ganna to ]?elp me, Q. This is how it reads : April 23rd, 1904. G. E. Burns, Esq., Special Agent, G.T.K., Room 15, Windsor Street. (Di Patrick) Dear Sir, Re George Patrie, or right name is Gaetano Lapatria, as this Italian interpreter was in correspondence with Headmaster Milloy, for some time and yearj as per orders came to my labour office, 375 St. James, and he brought 40 Italians to be engaged to work on the Ontario Division, and he made believe that all this crowd Italians each of them was working on the same division last summer. This is all wrong, and I found it out that very few did work for such master last year, and most of these 40 are new men, but Patries pretends they are the men who worked for him last year, and this is all lie. Anyhow he forced me to take the 40 Italians and good many of these men are worthless, and I could give him a good body of labourers if I was to deal with my opinion myself. Some roadmasters are getting some fees from these young inter- preters, and there is why cadi directly those Italians. If the general manager of the Canadian Pacific Railway would witness all this work and see such people, Italian labourers that Mr. George Patrie takes with them, and I am sure he would fire out roadmaster, foreman and someone else. This man Patrie he tried his best and tried to force me to give a contract to a boy 16 years old, and this application was refused, because he was not strong enough to handle rails and other kind like. Patrie himself when he saw that I refused to give contract tj the young man he promised him he would take him all same and guarantee full sum- mer wages. The information T give you and your company is only to do my duty and nothing else. This crowd will go to-night to Sharbot lake. Your Servant' Q. They did not pay ? A. No, sir. Q. Mr. Milloy hired them without their going through the books in your office? A. I don't know. Q. You said so. You got instructions from Di Patrick to give a contract which you would not, because they could not employ anyone who did not come through your office ? A. I do not know. Q. Then you wrote to Mr. Burns on April 29, 1904 : * Dear Sir, Attached you will find a list of names which they been left in -Mon- treal and each of them worked under Roadmaster Milloy and Italian Interpreter George Di Patrick. He hired green Italians and charged each of them from one dollar up to two. ' This is another proof which shows that every one is charging, and Di Patrick he made believe his roadmaster and your company that he only hired the same gang of last summer. 'Your servant, A. Cordasco.' Q. Then on May 21, 1904, you wrote this letter to Mr. Purns; look at the letter ? A. I do Your Honour. Q. You wrote this letter? A. Yes. Q. (Reading). 'Dear Sir: ' What I can approach and think from Fred Tannents that most of the 27 Itali- ans which they brought a law suit against Canadian Pacific Railway, are working on 02V ITALIAN IMMIGRATION 143 the new shop track yard and Peter Lepere, chief leader of Alberto Dini he can be blamed as he tells everyone around that work that none of my men will be taken and given work even the old English foreman, Mr. McCarthy, is against and if Pietro Lepere could be dismissed from such work of the new shop then Dini would have no more chance and any of the Italian goes with a piece of paper signed by A. Dini work ready for him. 1 1 would be glad to go over there with you and I would be able to point and show good many new things. ' Your servant,