1691 
 
 J
 
 THE LIBRARY 
 
 OF 
 
 THE UNIVERSITY 
 
 OF CALIFORNIA 
 
 LOS ANGELES 
 
 GIFT OF 
 
 THE ARCHIVES DEF/JITMENT, 
 UNICM OF SOUTH AFRICA.
 
 CAPE OF GOOD HOPE. 
 
 i-':JiVERGiTv OF cry i-a^r'iA 
 
 LOS ANGELLG 
 
 FffiST REPORr AND -^SdCElUlNGS, 
 WITH APPl^KK 
 
 COMMISSION 
 
 APPOINTED TO ENQUIRE INTO AND REPORT UPON CERTAIN 
 MATTERS CONNECTED WITH THE 
 
 EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM 
 
 OF THE COLONY. 
 
 ^Prcsentrt to botft l^ouses of ^atUament bji tommanU of f^is ©xtellrncii t!)e Gobttiw. 
 
 CAPE TOWN : 
 W. A. RICHARDS & SONS, GOVERNMENT PRINTERS, CASTLE STREET. 
 
 1891. 
 [G. 9— '91.]
 
 CAPE OF GOOD HOPE. 
 
 FIRST REPORT AND PROCEEDINGS, 
 WITH APPENDICES, 
 
 OF A 
 
 COMMISSION 
 
 APPOINTED TO ENQUIKE INTO AND EEPOET UPON CERTAIN 
 MATTEES CONNECTED WITH THE 
 
 EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM 
 
 OF THE COLONY. 
 
 ^Scrstntct) t« boti) Rouses o( ^iiiUamcnt bn commanti of IBis (Sxccllcncp t|)c Caobrinoi. 
 
 CAPE TOWN : 
 W. A. RICHARDS & SONS, GOVERNMENT PRINTEES, CASTLE STREET. 
 
 1891. 
 [G. 9— '91.]
 
 MEMBERS OF COMMISSION. 
 
 Sir J. D. Barry, Knight. 
 The Verj Rev. J. G. Holmes. 
 Thomas P. Therom, Esq., M.L.A. 
 The Rev. M. P. A. Coetzke. 
 The Rev. A. Moorreks. 
 Dr. W. B. Berry. 
 Ai.BERTTS N. Rowan, Esq. 
 
 W. S. Fletcher, Secretary.
 
 CONTENTS. 
 
 COMMISSION 
 
 REPORT .. 
 
 MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 
 
 INDEX AND ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE 
 
 GENERAL CIRCULAR AND REPLIES. . 
 
 APPENDICES. 
 
 Resolutions adopted by D. R. Church Synod 
 Mission Schools, particulars of . . 
 Railway Schools, regulations for 
 S. A. Teachers' Association and the Dutch language 
 Taal Congress, resolutions of . . 
 
 Undenominational Public Schools, particulars as to management, 
 property, &c. 
 
 Pagk. 
 
 V 
 
 vii 
 
 xi-xvi 
 
 3-181 
 
 185-191 
 
 195-210 
 
 213 & 217 
 
 213-215 
 
 216 
 
 217 
 
 218 
 
 218-250 
 
 b 2 
 
 10947G2
 
 ;: H-
 
 W. G. CAMERON, Ixeut.-General, 
 
 Officer Administering the Government. 
 
 COMMISSION 
 
 BY HTS EXCELLENCY LIEUTENANT-GENERAL WILLIAM GORDON CAMERON, 
 
 Comi)anion of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath, Stnior Officer in Command of Her 
 Majesty's Troops in the Coh)ny of the Cape of Good Hope, Administering the Govern- 
 ment of the said Colony and the Territories and Dependencies thereof, and Her 
 Majesty's High Commissioner, &c., &<'.. &r. 
 
 To Sir Jacob Dirk Barry, Knight, Judge Presidpnt of the Eaetern Districts Court, 
 
 Thomas Philippus Theron, Esquire, a Member of the Honourable the House of Assemblj, 
 
 The Very Reveri>nd Johu Garraway Holmes, 
 
 The Revprtmd Martin Pi'trus Albortus Coetzoe, 
 
 The Reverend Adriaan Moorrees, 
 
 William Bisset Berry, Esquire, Doctor of Medicine, 
 
 Albertus Nicolaas Rowan, Esquire, 
 
 Gkbetinq : 
 
 Wliereas it is desirable that inquiry should be instituted into the following questions 
 affecting the education of the people of the Colony : 
 
 1. How the irregularity of attendance of children, especially iu the Town Schools, can 
 be prevented or alleviated ; 
 
 2. What additional facilities can be provided to meet the wants of children of persons 
 employed on the lines of Railway ; 
 
 3. What steps should be taken to give the Boards of Management perpetual succession, 
 and to provide for the tenure of Public School property ; 
 
 4. AVliat further facilities can bo afforded for giving instruction in both the English 
 and Dutch languages, and in how far that object can he attained through the medium of 
 the elementary and other examinations ; 
 
 5. What contributions should be expected from local bodies, such as Divisional Coun- 
 cils and Municipalities, in support of schools, and for the erection of buildings ; 
 
 6. What additional facilities can be provided to meet the wants of the children of the 
 agricidtural population ; and 
 
 7. How to secure further use being made of the opportunities afforded for Edu«ation ; 
 And, whereas, in order to the duo consideration of these matters, I deem it expedient 
 
 that Commissioners should be appointed : 
 
 Now, therefore, I, the Officer Administering the Government aforesaid, do by this my 
 Commission nominate and appoint you, the said Jacob Dirk Barey, the said Thomas 
 FiiiLirpus Theron, the said James Garraway Holmeb, the said Martin Petrus Albertcs 
 CoETZEE, the said Adriaan Moorrees, the said William Bisset Berry, and the said 
 Albertus Nicolaas Rowan, to be Commissioners for the purpose of investigating and re- 
 portiii!^ upon the matters aforementioned ; 
 
 And I do hereby desire and request that you do, as soon as the same can conveniently 
 be done, using aU diligence, report to me, in writing, your proceedings by virtue of this 
 Commission. 
 
 And I further will and direct, and by these presents ordain, that this Commission shall 
 continue in force until you shall have finally reported upon the matters aforesaid, or other- 
 wise, until this Commission shall be by me revoked, and that you the said Commissioners 
 shall sit from time to time at sucli place or places as you shall find necessary for the purposes 
 aforesaid, and so proceed, alth<mgh the proceedings may not be continued from time to time 
 by adjournment. 
 
 And I do hereby direct and appoint that you have liberty to report to me your several 
 proceedings from time to time, and at such places aforesaid, as the same or any part thereof 
 may respectively be completed and perfected. 
 
 And lastly, I do hereb}' desire and direct that all Public Officers in this Colony, as well 
 as all Her Majesty's subjects, be assistant to you in the execution of these presents, by 
 giving yovi all such informati<m as it may be in their power to impart. 
 
 In witness whereof, I have caused this Commission to be issued this 18th day of 
 February, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and ninety-one. 
 
 By command of His Excellency the Officer Administering the Government in Council, 
 
 J. W. SAUEK.
 
 vu 
 
 EEP RT. 
 
 To His Excellency Sir HENRY BROUGHAM IjOCH, Knight Grand Cross 
 of the Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, 
 Knight Commander of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath, Governor 
 and Commander-in-Chief of Her Majesty's Colony of the Cape of Good 
 Hope in South Africa, and of the Territories and Dej)endeucies thereof, 
 and Her Majesty's High Commissioner, &c., &c., &c. 
 
 Mat it plsasb Your Excellbncy, — 
 
 The Commissioners appointed to enquire into the Educational system of the Colony, 
 in terms of the Commission issued on the 18th day of February, 1H91, desire respect- 
 fiilly to present to Yom- Excellency the following preliminary Report : — 
 
 In accordance with the letter of instruction issued by the Government on the 18th 
 day of February, 1891, the Commission met in Cape Town, and proceeded to take there 
 the oral evidence of various witnesses, and also issued circulars of questions inviting 
 answers in writing from others in different parts of the Colony relating to the subject 
 matter of the Commission. 
 
 Your Commission being of opinion that oral evidence of witnesses residing else- 
 where than in Cape Town shoiild be obtained, and this being impossible before the 
 meeting of Parliament, it was resolved to suspend its sittings until immediately after 
 the close of the ensuing session, when further oral evidence will be taicn, and it is 
 hoped the laboui-s of the Commission will be brought to a satisfactory conclusion. 
 
 J. D. BAE14Y, 
 
 President. 
 6th May, 1891.
 
 EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS. 
 
 [G. 9— '91.]
 
 EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 MINUTES OF PROCEKDINGS. 
 
 Cwpe Town, Thursday, \^th February, 1891. 
 
 Sir J. D. Barky, Kt. (President), 
 
 T. P. Theron, Esq., M.L.A., 
 
 The Verj' Rev. J. G. Holmes 
 
 (Dean of Grahamstown), 
 
 The Rev. A. Moorhees, 
 Dr. W. B. Berry, 
 A. N. RowAX, Esq. 
 
 The member.s having met in No. 19 Committee Room of the House of A.ssemhly at 10 
 o'clock a.m., Sir J. D. Barry took the chair as President, and opened the 
 proceedings by reading a communication from the Prime Minister's Office, dated 
 February 18, 1891, nominating Sir J. D. Barry, Kt., T. P. Theron, Esq.. M.L.A.. 
 the Very Rev. J. G. Holmes 'Dean of Grahamstown). the Rev. M. P. A. Coetzee, jr., 
 the Rev. A. Moorrees, Dr. W. B. Berry, and A. N. Rowan, Esq., to be Commis- 
 .sioners, and specifying the matters to be inquired into. 
 The President stated that he had received a communication from the Rev. M. P. A. Coetzee 
 to the effect that he was prevented attending the Commission until the following 
 day. 
 It was intimated that Mr. W. S. Fletcher had been appointed Secretary and shorthand 
 
 writer to the Commission. 
 The Secretary, by direction of the President, laid before the Commissiou the following 
 papers : — 
 
 Report of the Education Commission. 1879. 
 Education Manual, 1891 
 
 special Report by the Superintendent-General of Education on School Regu- 
 lations, 1890. 
 Annual Reports of the Superintendent-General of Education for 1887-88-89. 
 Education Act of 186.5. 
 Education Act of 1874. 
 Rej)crt of the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the working of the 
 
 Elementary Education Acts, England and Wales, 18S8. 
 Report of the Committee of the South African Teachera' Association on 
 
 resolutions of Dutch Reformed Church S>-nod and Taal Congress, 1 890. 
 Repoics of Deputy Inspectors of Schools for 1890. 
 The Secretary was instructed to procure the following papers for the use of the Commission : 
 Reports of Commissions in the Orange Free State and Natal on Education. 
 Copies of Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and Mauritius Education Reports. 
 Copy of the " Tydschrift " newspaper, for January, 1891. 
 Three (Miiiipletc sets of the Royal Commission appointed to enquire into tlie 
 
 working of the Elementary Education Acts, England and Wales, 1888, 
 Report of Select Committee of the Legislative Council, 1881, on the teaching .if 
 till' Diitcli language in puldic schools. 
 Resolved^— That the I'resident be recjiiested to interview the Hon. Coh)nial Secretary upon 
 the following points, viz. : 
 
 1 . The allowances to official and non-official members of the Commission. 
 
 2. Travelling expenses. 
 
 3. Payment to official and non-official witnesses. 
 
 4. Printing and other expenses. 
 
 5. Powers of Commission as to summoning witnesses, 
 (i. How many members should form a quorum ; 
 
 and that the Hon, Colonial Secretary be reijuestcd to reply to tlie foregoing in writing. 
 Resolved, — That at an early meeting of the l^)mnussion, each member be prepared to 
 
 submit questions to be embodied in a circular with a view to elicit information 
 
 from persons in various parts of the Colony ou the several subjects referred to the 
 
 Commi.ssiou. 
 R(-solved,— That Sir Langham Dale, K.C.M.G.. Superintendent-General of Education, be 
 
 requested to attend and give evidence on the following day at 10-30 a.m. 
 Adjourned till the following daj' at 10 o'clock a.m. 
 
 c 2
 
 Cape Town, Fruhn/, 20f// Febrmtru, 1891. 
 
 Sir J. D. Uakky (PreHideiit^ 
 T. P. TiiERON, Esq., I Rev. Oof.tzee, 
 
 Dt'rtii Holmes, | Dr. Berkv, 
 
 lii'V. MoOKKEKS, I A. N. Kow.^N, Esq. 
 
 Till- uliiiutt's of the jirevious meeting were reail nud contiriiiod. 
 
 The Secretary laid ou the talile " Report of Select Comniittee of tlie Legislative Council, 
 1881," on the teaching of the Dutch language in public schools. 
 
 Copies of Reports on Education : — Jamaica, Ceylon, Uueensland, Tasmania, South Australia 
 and New Zealand. 
 
 A letter was read from the Under Colonial Secretary, foi'warding copy of a letter received 
 from tlio Rev. J. H. Hofmeyr, of Somerset East, Scriha to the Synod of the Dutch 
 Reformed (^hurch, embodying certain resolutions adopted by the Synod, on the 
 subject of education in the Colony. [St'e Appindix. \ 
 
 A letter was read from the Prime Minister's Office, dated 20th February, 1891, referring to 
 his previous communication on tlie functions of the Commission, and correcting 
 an omission in connection with additional facilities to be afforded to meet the wants 
 of children of pcr.sons employed on the lines of railway. 
 
 The President informed the Commission that he hud seen the Hon. Colonial Secretary, who 
 stated that a circular would be forwardi^d dealing witli tlie wliole (juestion of 
 remuneration and expenses, and the Commission could bo guided thereby. With 
 regard to the number of members to form a ijuorum, the Commission could make 
 its own arrangements. 
 
 Sir Langham Dale, K.C.M.G., was examined. 
 
 Resolved, — Tliat the following witnesses be requested to attend and give evidence : — The 
 Rev. Dr. Kolbo, The Rev. Father O'Riley, Rev. Cancjn Brooke, Archdeacon Light- 
 foot, Mr. J. R. Whitton, Rev. C. MuUer, Rev. J. M. Russell, Professor van der 
 Tuuk, Mr. C. B. Elliott, General Manager of Railways, Mr. A. W. Howell, Chief 
 Trafhc Manager. 
 
 Adjourned to the following day at lO'lo o'clock a.m. 
 
 Cape Totvn, Sulurdu//, 2Lsf Febriutni, 1891. 
 
 PRESENT : 
 
 Sir J. D. B.uiRY (President), 
 
 T. P. Theron, Esq., 
 Dean Holmes, 
 Rev. Mookrees, 
 
 Rev. Coetzee, 
 
 Dr. Beuky, 
 
 A. N. Row.\.\, Esq. 
 
 The minutes of the [>revious meeting were read and coulirmed. 
 
 A letter was read from the Prime Mini.ster's Office, dated the 21st inst., ou the subject of the 
 
 scale of allowances to menil>ers (d the Commission. 
 Sir Langham Dale was further examined. 
 Adjourned to Mond:iy, the 2;5rd inst., at 10 o'clock. 
 
 Gape Town, MohiIki/, 2r>nl Pebrmirij, ISOl. 
 
 Sir J. D. B.^RRV (President), 
 T. P. Tueron, Esq., I Rev. Coetzee, 
 
 Dean Holmes. Dr. BKKiiY, 
 
 Rev. MooRRKEi, I A. N. Rowan, Esq. 
 
 The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confinued. 
 
 The Secretary read a letter from Dr. Kolbe, in reply to one requesting him to attend and 
 give evidence, to the effect that us nothing hud been done to safeguard the interests 
 of the Roman Catholic body in the constitution of the Commission, he must ask for 
 time to consider whether he should give evidence or not. 
 A letter was read from the Prime Minister's Office, dated 21 st February, transmitting the 
 ("oiiiraissions to tile several members, dulj' signed by His E-xcellency the Officer 
 AUminiateriug the Government.
 
 xfii 
 
 Resolved, — That the Superintendent- General of Education he requested to furnish for 
 
 reference a file of the Ednaitiotidl Nnvs. 
 Resolved, — That the Secretary Ite instructed to address the Government recjuestiug a credit 
 
 of £500 to meet disbursements of the Commission. 
 The Commission then proceeded to the consideration of the questions to bo embodied in a 
 
 circular to be issued, with a view to elicit opinions on the several subjects referi'ed 
 
 to the Commission for enijuiry and rei)ort. 
 0. B. Elliott, Esq. (General Manager of Railways), the Rev. Archdeacon Lightfoot, and the 
 
 Rev. Canon Brooke were examined. 
 Adjourned to tlie following <lay at 10 o'clock. 
 
 Cape Town, Tnesdai), 2^th February, 1891. 
 
 Sir J, D. Barry (President), 
 T. P. Thkron, Esq., I Dean Holmes, 
 
 Rev. MooRKEES, I Rev. Coetzee, 
 
 Dr. Berry, | A. N. Row.\n, Esq. 
 
 The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. 
 
 The Secretary laid on the table report of Commission on Education (Cape of Good Hope), 
 
 1863; Report of the Commissioner of Eduwition (United States) 1887-88 ; and 
 
 file of the Educational News. 
 Resolved,- — That the following witnesses bo requested to attend and give evidence : — Hia 
 
 Honour the Oliief Justice, Mr. Justice Smith, Rev. J. Thompson, His Lordship the 
 
 Bishop of Cape r(jwn, Mr. D. Douallier, Mr. de Waal, M.LA., Abdol Burns, Dr. 
 
 van Oordt, Mr. E. Powell, Rev. Canon Peters, Mr. F. Y. St. Leger, Rev. H. 
 
 Tindall, Rev. S. J. du Toit, the Rev. Andrew Murray, Mi-. W. T. Birch, Rev. 
 
 Professor Hofmeyr, Rev. Professor de Vos, Professor Mansvelt, Mr. A. Immelman . 
 Commission in deliberation on the questions proposed to be embodied in a general cii-cular 
 
 to be issued. 
 Resolved, — That in taking the evidence of witnesses on the several subjects referred to the 
 
 Commission for enquiry and report, the examination in ciiief be carried on by the 
 
 President, and that eacli member in rotation be called upon to follow up the same ; 
 
 and that the President be authorised to limit the examination as far as possible to 
 
 one subject at a time and to decide all (jue.stious of order. 
 The Rev. J. M. Russell, Mr. A. W. Howell, and tlio Rev. C. Muller were examined. 
 Adjourned to the following day at 10 o'clock. 
 
 Cajoe Totvn, Wednesday, 25th PchrKary, 1891. 
 
 PRESENT : 
 
 Sir J. D. Barky (President). 
 T. P. Theron, Esq., I Dean Holmes, 
 
 Rev. Mookrees, | Rev. Coetzee, 
 
 Dr. Berry, | A. N. Row^vn, Esq. 
 
 The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. 
 
 Resolved, — That the Tuembers of the Ctmimission visit the Normal College, Cape Town. 
 
 Resolved, — That letters be addressed to the Superintendent-General of Education in the Free 
 State, the Superintendent- General of Education, Natal, and Dr. Brill of the Grey 
 College, Bloemfonteiu, enclosing a copy of tlie points submitted to flie Commission, 
 and re([uesting tlieir opinions thereon, as also any general suggestions likely to be 
 of service to tlie Comnii.xsion. 
 
 Mr. J. R. Whitton, Abdol Burns, the Kev. .1. Thcmipson, and Professor van der Tuuk 
 were examined. 
 
 Adjourned to the following day at 10 o'clock.
 
 XIV 
 
 Ciipe Town, TImrsduij, 2ijfh Febr»nrt/y 1891. 
 
 i'KF.SKKT : 
 
 Sir J. D. ]{.\i(HY (Pro»i(loiit\ 
 T, P. TiirutoN, Estj., I Hpv. Ooet/f.e, 
 
 Dean TIoi.MKs, | Dr. Behiiy, 
 
 Bev. MoDUKEES, I A. N. E.<)w.vn, Escj. 
 
 Tlic minutes nf the last meeting were read and confirmed. 
 
 The >Se«-retarv ii'|iintiMl tliat an advame ol £.■)<)() had lii'ou received from llio Government 
 
 towards meeting the expeuse.s of the Commission, and phiood in tlic Standard Hank. 
 Resolved, — 'Diat all checiuo-s be signed tiy the Secretary and countersigned l)y the President. 
 Resolved, — That at its rising on Thursday, the 5th March, the Commission adjourn until 
 
 Thursday, the ;5rd of September next. 
 Mr. de Waal, M.L.A., Mr. O. Dalton Douallior, and Mr. P. J. Stigaut were examined. 
 Adjourned to the following day at 10 o'clock. 
 
 Ci(pf Town, Fridaji, "11th February, 1891. 
 
 PHESENT : 
 
 Sir J. D. Barky (Pre'sident), 
 T. 1'. TiiERON, Esq., I Rev. Coetzeb, 
 
 Dean Hoi..\ies, | Dr. Berry, 
 
 Rev. MoouuEKs, I A. N. Row.vn, Esq. 
 
 The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. 
 
 A letter was read from the (Johmial Secretary's UiKce, dated the 'ifith inst., forwarding oiglit 
 copies of the Report of an Education ("ommissi'ju appointed by the Orange Free 
 State Volksraad. 
 
 lies, lived, Ttiat tlie Colonial Secretary be requested to furnish ei;'ht copies of the " Report 
 
 of the Superiutcndeut-Geueral of Education for 18'.K),' for the exclusive use of 
 the Commission. 
 Dr van Oordt, Mr. E. Powell, Rev. Canon Peters, Mr. F. Y. St. Leger, Marah Soeker and 
 
 Iniaiim Talieb were examined. 
 Committee in deliberation on the circular of questions proposed to ))e issued. 
 Adjourned to the following <lay at 10 o'clock. 
 
 Capr Tnv'ii, Siitunla//, 28/// Frhninrij, 189(1. 
 
 T. P. Thekox, Esq., Rev. Coetzee, 
 
 Dean Holmes. Dr. Berby, 
 
 Rev MoonuEEs, A. N. Rowan, Esq. 
 
 The minutes of the Inst meeting were read and confirmed. 
 In the absenie of Sir J. D. Barry, Mr. Theron was voted to the chair. 
 
 Resolved, That the Superintendent-General of Education be respectfully requested to 
 
 supply the Commission with the latc-st returns, shewing comparatively the number 
 of white and coloured children, respectively, enrolled in mission schools in the 
 larger towns, such as Cape Town. Port Elizabeth, (iraham's Town, and King 
 William's Town, or other centres where lioth classes are enrolled in such schools 
 in eonsi<lerable numbers. 
 The Uev. H. Tindallaiid the Rev. S. J. du Toit were examined. 
 Adjourued till Monday, Jnd March, .it 10 o'clock. 
 
 Ciipc Town, Monday, 2nd March, 1891. 
 
 present : 
 Sir J. D. Barry (President), 
 T P TiiERON, Esq., Rev. Mookrkes, 
 
 Dean Holmes, A. N. Rowa-v, Es<j. 
 
 Rev. Coet7.ee, Dr. Berry. 
 
 The minutes of the la.st meeting were read and conliniietl. 
 
 The Rev. J. J. O'Reilly, Professor M.-Misvclt. Rev. Professor do Vo«, and the Bishop of 
 Cape Town, were examined.
 
 Eeaolved, — That the Secretary be instructed as soon as possitile after tbo afljournmont of 
 tlin Conimission, ti) address a circular to the various Boards of Man ij^-'art of all the 
 graded ITudeuominatioual Public Sdiools in the towns and villages, luiiuesting the 
 managers of suck schools to supply tlie Commission with information on the 
 following points, viz. : 
 
 A (Ij. Who are tlie guarantors of the school under your management; how 
 are the managers chosen ; and of what other bodies, if any, are members 
 wholly or partly c.'- officio managers of t he school 'i 
 {'!). On what oicasions. if any, have deficiencies arisen in the finances of 
 the school under your management, and how have any such deticiencios 
 been luado good? 
 
 B. In the case of propert\- acfjuired for school purposes : 
 (1). Who are the legal holders ? 
 
 (2). What provision is made for the tenure of the property V 
 
 (;i). On what conditions is the property allowed to be used for school 
 
 purposes by managers who are not the legal holders 'i Are you prepared 
 
 to allow tlie property to be vested in a Board permanently 't If so, state 
 
 your views as to the constitution of sucJi Board. 
 (4). What amount, if any, has fi'om time to time, or at any time, been 
 
 contributed by Government for the erection, purchase, or repairs of 
 
 the buUdinga, and subject to what conditions have such contributions 
 
 been made y 
 (5). What money burden.s are on tlie jtroperty, how have they arisen, what 
 
 amount is annually payable as interest or sinking fund, and from what 
 
 fund is it paid ? 
 
 C. lu the case i>f property rented for school purposes : 
 ( I ). What is the amount of rent paid ? 
 
 (2). By whom is it paid ? 
 (3). Out of what fund is it paid ? 
 And that the Secretary be instructed to tiibulate in Home conveuient form, for the use of the 
 
 Commission, tlie information given in the replies. 
 Ile.solved, — That the Conimission, after its adjournment on Thursday next, reassemble at 
 
 Graham's Town on the 3rd of September. 
 A letter waR read from the Rev. Dr. Kolbe. intimating that, on account of his deafness, he 
 
 |)referred giving written answers to any questions that might be submitted to him. 
 Resolved, — That a circular copy of the questions be forwarded to Dr. Kolbe. 
 The general circular of (questions was finally approved, nnd it was resolved that the same be 
 
 printed forthwith in English and Dutch. 
 Adjourned till the following day at 10 o'clock. 
 
 Cape Town^ Tuesday^ ord March, 1891. 
 
 Sir J. D. Barry (President), 
 
 A. N. Rowan, Esq.. | Dean Holmes, 
 
 Rev. CoETZEE, I Rev. Moorrees. 
 
 Dr. Berry. | 
 
 The minutes of tlic last meeting were read and confirmed. 
 
 A letter was read from the Colonial Secretary's OHice, dated tlie Jnd iust., stating that S 
 copies of tlie report of tlie Supc^nntendent-Goneral of E<bication for 1S90, would 
 be forwanled as soon as the same was out of the printor.s' hands. 
 
 A letter was read from the Superintendent-General of Education, dated tlio ".'ud iust.. trans- 
 mitting a return showing the nimiber of white and coloured children attending the 
 mission schools in various towns. {See Apj)imlix.'\ 
 
 Rewilved, — That tlie Superintendent-Geiieial of Education be requested to furnish particulai-s 
 of the mission schools iu C.ipe Town in whicJi the 2,955 white children are placed, 
 and of the number of children in each such school. 
 
 The Secretary wa.« in.structed to obtain a copy of the proceedings of the conference of 
 representatives of County Councils on the use of the new County Council fund for 
 Education, held iu England on December b. 1890. 
 
 The Rev. A Murray', Rev. Professor Hofmeyr. and Mr. W. T. Birch were e-xamined. 
 
 Adjourned till the following day at 10 o'clock.
 
 Cape Toian, WeilnesJui/, March 4, 1891. 
 
 Sir J. D. Barry (President), 
 Dean ITolmes, I Dr. Berry, 
 
 Kev. MooRREES. I A. N. Eowan, Esq. 
 
 The minutos of tlio last mooting wcro voad ami ODnfirniod. 
 
 A letter wa.s road from the Gon<*ral Manafjer ot Ixailways, dated the ;!rd inst.. onolosing 
 
 a momoranduiu receivod from the Suporiutondont-Goneral of Education, sliowing 
 
 the sdiools affording facilities for tlie oducation of children of persons employed 
 
 on the railway lines. 
 A letter was read from *ho Superiutendent-General of Education, dated the Ith inst., 
 
 forwarding a return of the number of children attending the mission schools in 
 
 Capo Town. [Sre Appendix. \ 
 Eftsf.lved, — That proofs of the evidence when printed, as well as copies of all papers and 
 
 roturns to appear as appondi'-es to tlie report, be transmitted to each member of the 
 
 Commission during the recess. 
 Committee in deliberation as to the names of persons to whom cu-cular of questions should 
 
 he sent. 
 Eosolved, — That authority be delegated to the President, Dean Holmes and Mr. Rowan to 
 
 send circular of questiou.'i to any persons -wlioso names had not already been 
 
 agreed upon. 
 ■Resolved, — That tho Secretary be instructed to address a communication to His Lordship the 
 
 Bishop of Grahamstown, tlie Rev. A. Murray, the Rev. J. Thompsim, Wesloyan 
 
 Minister, Cape Town : and tho Kov. J. Don, Presbyterian Minister, King William's 
 
 Town ; requesting each to furnisli tlie Commission witli a return giving information 
 
 on the following matters relating to tho mission schools aided by grants from the 
 
 Ediu ation Department, and worked by the several religious bodies represented by 
 
 tho reverend gentlemen, viz. : — 
 
 1. Total amount received from the Department in aid of tho Schools. 
 
 2. What amount is raisi'd by the religious body in fees, contributions, &c. 
 .'5. Total number of cliildren enrolled. 
 
 4. ^V^lat is the average daily attendance. 
 
 •i. What is the number oi' children taught in the schools, but who do not 
 belong to tho deiioiuinntion working the scliools in which they are taught. 
 Such return to be based on the scliools actually in existence iluring the year 18i)0. 
 And further, that the replies, together witli that promised by His Lordship the Bishop of 
 Cape Town, and with the information on similar matters given in o\'idonce bj 
 the Rev. J. O'Reilly, be tabulated by the Secretary to form an appendix to the 
 report of tho Commission. 
 -lis Honour the Chief Justiee, Mr. Justice Smith, and Mr. A. Immelman were examined. 
 Adjourned till the following day at l(t o'clock . 
 
 Capn Town, Tlntnihiij, Wi March, 1891. 
 
 PRESENT : 
 Sir J. D. Barry (President), 
 A. N. Rowan, Esq.. I Dean Holmes, 
 
 Dr. Berry, | Rev. Moorkees. 
 
 The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. 
 The Commission considered further the names of persons to whom the circular of questions 
 
 should be sent. 
 Resolved,— That the Colonial Office be requested to supply copies of Education Reports from 
 
 Belgium and Austria. 
 Aiter transacting some formal business, the Commission adjourned until Thursday, 
 September .'Jrd.
 
 EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
 
 CAPE OF GOOD HOPE. 
 
 EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 30rt3entcti to boti) f^ousts of ^nxliamcnt bij cominanliof |^is lc.xcellcncg tfjt €iobErnor, 
 
 1891. 
 
 Ca'pe Town, Friday, 2()th February, 1891. 
 
 Sir Jacob Dirk Baeey, Knight (President), 
 
 T. P. Therou, Esq., M.L.A., 
 Kev. M. P. A. Coetzee, jr., 
 Kev. A. Moorrees, 
 A. N. Eowan, Esq., 
 
 The Very Kev. J. G. Holmes 
 
 (Dean of Graham's Town), 
 Dr. W. B. Berry. 
 
 Sir Langham Dale, K.C.M.G., M.A., LL.D., examined. 
 
 1. President.'] You are Superintendent-General of education ? — Yes. S"" 
 
 2. For ho-.v many years have you been so ? — Since ^November, 1859. k.c"m.g", m.a. 
 
 3. I belieA'e the present system of Education has grown up under your ll^- 
 auspices ? — Yes ; as the natural development of the Herschel system, which Feb. 20Ui, i89i. 
 previously prevailed. 
 
 4. What do you call the Herschel system ? — The proposal of Sir John 
 Herschel, when the Government consulted him was this, that the Govern- 
 ment should establish superior schools in all the principal towns of the 
 Colony and wholly maintain them for the free education of what were then 
 called the burghers' children. The political object of the system was to get 
 the burghers to learn English, but the educational object was to prevent the 
 children of the white colonists from degenerating through the difficulty of 
 getting competent teachers. That proposal of Sir John Herschel's was carried 
 out to a very limited extent. Twelve superior schools were founded about 
 1839 to 1841, and Dr. Innes, in his evidence before the first Commission, 
 stated that the money diificulty was the fault — the Government could not 
 afiEord to maintain so many first-class schools at its own expense ; and from 
 the first, the Government departed so far from the Herschel system as to 
 supplement these twelve schools by others at minor stations, as they wore 
 called, the Government only contributing a portion of the expense, so that 
 in fact the aided system was actually begim at the very time the Herschel 
 system was projected. The principal Herschel schools lasted on more or less 
 until my appointment, and then the aided system was more freely encouraged, 
 and as it seemed to fit in with the wishes of the people that they should have 
 their share in the management of public schools, it was decided to go on and 
 encourage the aided system, and discontinue each of the Herschel schools as 
 early as possible. I am not quite sure of the late when the last school was 
 closed. 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] B
 
 1^ Tilt ^- Under the Ilerschel system, was there anything equivalent to the 
 
 K.C.M.O., M.A. Mission Schudl system which came in afterwards ? — Nu ; the Ilerschel system 
 
 ^^^ did not intend to benefit any but what you might call the better class 
 
 F«b. 20th. 1891. children of the cidonists. It was expressly intended for the white children. 
 
 0. To keep up the European mark ? — Yes ; to keep up the children of 
 
 tlie colonists to what they might have expected had they remained in Europe ; 
 
 but it was found nc^cessary, when the aided system began to bo introduced, 
 
 to have a sjiecial set of regulations for aiding missionary schools for coloured 
 
 people, and a Minute was issued by the Government in 1841, simultaneously 
 
 with the opening of some of the Ilerschel schools, for giving aid to coloured 
 
 schools ; and that Minute is practically in force at the present time, 
 
 7. Would you be so good as to explain shortly the system of public 
 education now in force, comprehending the undenominational public schools, 
 mission schools, aud aborigines schools ? — In the Government Gazette of this 
 morning will be found the whole system, in the shape of a quarterly return. 
 We publish a quarterly statement, and from that it appears that there are 
 undenominational public schools of three gi-ades — first, second and third. 
 The following abstract, based on the returns which appear in this morning's 
 Government Gazette, will show more clearly the system of public education : — 
 
 UNDENOMINATIONAL PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND ADJUNCTS. 
 
 Class I 55 Schools 
 
 Class II 78 „ 
 
 Class III 75 „ (in Villages) 
 
 „ „ 217 „ (on Farms) 
 Trade Classes 16 Nos. included. 
 
 District Boarding Schools ) rg 
 
 and Departments j 
 
 Private Farm Schools ... 210 
 
 Circuit Schools ... ... 40 
 
 Special Institutions ... 9 
 
 
 
 
 759 
 
 Mission Schools ... 
 
 
 444 
 
 Aborigines Schools : 
 Colonial 
 Trauskei 
 Tembuland 
 Griqualand 
 
 East 
 
 31 
 
 103 
 
 55 
 
 78 
 
 
 
 
 267 
 
 Quarterly 
 
 Daily 
 
 Enrolment. 
 
 attendance 
 
 7,506 
 
 6,477 
 
 4,532 
 
 3,803 
 
 2,603 
 
 2,027 
 
 4,116 
 
 3,442 
 
 ( 284 
 
 247 
 
 1 1,420 
 
 1,340 
 
 878 
 
 707 
 
 033 
 
 817 
 
 22,272 
 
 18,860 
 
 38,192 
 
 20,698 
 
 2,872 
 
 2,099 
 
 5,682 
 
 3,971 
 
 3,279 
 
 2,300 
 
 4,.350 
 
 3,207 
 
 16,183 
 
 11,577 
 
 Grand total for quarter 
 
 ended 31st Dec, 1890 1,470 76,647 57,135 
 
 The above shows the exact number of the schools up to the 31st of 
 December last. 
 
 8. Do they educate half-castes in the Mission Schools ? — Yes, they do ; 
 but in connection with that, there is an important question that will have to 
 come before the Commission. We find that the poorer white children press 
 into these schools, and there are 10,000 white children, ascertained by cal- 
 culation, attending Mission Schools, so that the 444 Mission Schools, that 
 were intended for the coloured population, are found to contain 10,000 white 
 children of the poorer classes in towns.
 
 9. Mr. Theron.'] What is the number of all the scholars in these Mission , ^ ^^ ^ 
 Schools ? — 38,192. Of course it is noticeable that when the white children k.c.m.g., u.x. 
 come pressing into these schools, the coloured children are pushed out. There ^^•^- 
 
 is not room for both ; and that accounts for the waifs and stra)-8 about Feb. 20th, i89i. 
 Cape Town. 
 
 10. President^ As the white children increase, they press out the lower 
 type of coloured people? — Yes. The daily attendance of 57,135 was 
 remarkable. That is what we call a good quarter — a fine weather quarter — ■ 
 equal to 74 per cent, of the quarterly enrolment, which is the working 
 number. The annual enrolment of course includes all those who have been 
 at school at any time during the year. There is a great fluctuation. 4,000 
 or 5,000 children go out one quarter ; some come back again, but others do 
 not return at all. 
 
 11. Mr. Bowan.^ Then I understand you to say that half the white 
 children are in Mission Schools ? — One-third. With regard to what I 
 mentioned just now, last quarter was exceptional in the matter of daily average 
 attendance ; the weather was fine, and there were no epidemics. If I take 
 the same quarter of the year before, there were only 49,000 children in daily 
 attendance. 
 
 1 2. Then among the Aborigines, the average attendance is very low ? — 
 Yes. In a very bad seai^on it runs down to something like 50 or 60 per cent. 
 
 13. In the Mission Schools it is lower than in the Undenominational 
 Schools ? — Yes, very much lower. Ten per cent. I should say. The irregular 
 attendance is not so much in the country schools where you get often 95 per 
 cent. It is in the town schools that there is so much truaucy, but no educa- 
 tion of a compulsory character will altogether remedy that. Of course you 
 may do a good deal to prevent it by having truaucy officers. 
 
 14. Could you supply us with statistics for each )"ear since 1879 ? — All 
 the returns are in the Statistical Eegister published by the Colonial Secretary. 
 At pages 300, 301 and 302 will be found statistics of all the schools from 
 1866 — that is, since the present system was formally constituted by the Act 
 of 1865. The number of schools is given, the number of scholars on the 
 roll, the daily attendance, the expenditure by the Government, and the local 
 expenditure for each school up to the present. It will be noticed that as 
 far back as the ten years from 1860 to 1876 the daily attendance was 67 per 
 cent,, and this last quarter it was 74 per cent. 
 
 15. President^ Since the Education C'ommission reported in 1879, what 
 changes have taken place in the regulations and in the general development 
 of the system of aided schools ? — The recommendations of the Commission 
 of 1879 that have been carried out are these, substantial increases of grants 
 for the salaries of teachers in the various graded Undenominational PubHc 
 Schools, made by resolution of Parliament in 1882, and at the same time, a 
 complete recast of the course of instruction in Public Schools. 
 
 16. In what respect has the recast been most conspicuous ? — There was 
 a wider programme, especially in scientific subjects, and special attention 
 was also called to the Dutch Language by providing grants for teachers in 
 Dutch, and also freehand drawing and vocal music. Then the pension 
 system, connected with the system of good service allowances, was embodied 
 in the Act of Parliament for 1887. 
 
 17. Was that in coubcquence of the Report of the Education Commission 
 of 1879 ? — I cannot say ; it may have had something to do with it, but it 
 was a thing that had been planned long before the Commission sat. 
 
 18. Have there been any further changes? — Private farm schools, with 
 capitation grants, and also Circuit schools among the poorer class of farmers 
 were established, and besides capitation allowances for scholars on passing 
 the Inspector's examination, and capitation allowances for indigent boardei:: 
 
 b2
 
 6 
 
 8'' attending private farm schools or Circuit schools. Those are all the changes 
 
 Kcll'a.fu'i.. and additions that liavo hoon made since the Commission of 1879. 
 
 I'LD- 19. Are there any other reeommeiulations V — There are a good many 
 
 Kb. ioih, 1891. recommendations that have not yet been carried out. The changes I have 
 mentioned have taken effect. 
 
 20. What recommendations of that Commission have not been carried 
 out? —The system of appointing School Boards by the ratepayers, those 
 School Boards having rating i)o\vers to be exercised by themselves or by 
 Divisional Councils. The; management of the schools remains the same as it 
 was before ; the School Boards have not been founded. 
 
 21. Are there any other recommendations that have not been carried 
 out ? — The Commission of 1879 recommended larger grants to Mission Schools 
 for the coloured peo[ile ; those have not been made. Then there was to be a 
 subdivision of the duties of the Superintendent-General of Education, but 
 that was found to be impracticable. 
 
 22. Mr. Jiowan.'] I believe one of the recommendations was the 
 abolition of Mission Schools? — It is rather ditiicult to understand tint ; in 
 one part of the Commission it says there should bo no mor(! Mission Schools, 
 and in another part it recommends an increase of the grants. 
 
 23. President.'] Are there any other recommendations made which have 
 not been carried out ? — There are a good many recommendations which I 
 have made myself from time to time besides. 
 
 24. I am referring to the Commission ? — I do not think so. 
 
 25. Could you state what recommendations you have made yourself 
 from that time up to the present that have been carried out ? — The Govern- 
 ment has given effect to nearly everything i have submitted. 
 
 20. Can you tell us what you have submitted? — The Government has 
 given effect to recommendations relating to private farm schools. Circuit 
 schools, and the Pension system. 
 
 27. In those matters you concurred with the Commission? — The Com- 
 mission did not go into the question of governesses on farms ; that plan 
 originated afterwards. There is a reference to itinerating teachers in the 
 Commission of 1879, but there was no system laid down. 
 
 28. AVliat recommendations of your own have been made since 1879 
 that have not been carried out ? — The ])riucipal things are, an adequate staff 
 of Inspectors to keep up with the growth of the schools. Just latterly in 
 my last report, I called attention to some system for capitation allowances 
 for attracting day scholars among the poorer class of farmers into the third 
 class public schools on farms. That is referred to in my report to Parliament 
 which is not yet printed. What I mean is this : two or three farmers 
 establish a third class public school at some centre among the farms. They 
 send their own children, perhaps ten or twelve, and get a £30 grant, but the 
 teacher could very well teach another ten or twelve children. The farmer 
 says, I have no objection to take in the children of these hi/tvoners on the 
 farms, but who is going to pay tor them ? They will not and cannot pay 
 anything, and they say we have no objection to let our teacher teach these 
 additional children if you will only make some allowance, so that the teacher 
 can be compensated, say a capitation allowance of £1 a year. In that way 
 I should be able to get ten or twelve extra children into a third class school, 
 which is about the cheapest way of getting education. 
 
 28a. That has been recommended lately, but not yet carried out ? — No. 
 Then I want to propose some additions to the private farm regulations, 
 especially to allow governesses, after five years service, and with a creditable 
 report, to share in the same privileges as other teaehers of good service, and 
 ultimately pensions. That will involve the approval of each teacher at a 
 farm school by the Department. At present I have no authority to reject 
 uucpialiiied teachers in a private farm school ; rhe farmer employs whatever 
 teacher he likes. If the teacher has a certificate, he gets a larger allowance,
 
 but if, as iu some cases, the farmer puts in an old man of 75, who is as deaf S" 
 
 as a post and can scarcely see, I still am obliged to pay the farmer, although K-aM-O*. m.a. 
 I intimate to him pretty strongly that it is an imposition. If the man hu>i ll.d. 
 bona fide kept the school, I must pay the capitations for the year, although Feb. 20t^ i89i. 
 the thing looks like a fraud. 
 
 29. Could you not prevent the school starting altogether. Have not 
 they to get your approval ? — Not in the case of a private farm school. 
 They start with so many children and ask for an Inspector to be sent, and I 
 have no power to reject the teacher, but if these teachers are allowed the 
 privileges, we should have at the same time power to veto the appointment. 
 One private farm school is kept by the grandmother of the family. 
 
 30. The case you mentioned just now of a teacher 75 years old, deaf 
 and blind, is not a mere fanciful illustration ? — No, it is a real case. The 
 other recommendation is one that will require a good deal of considoi-ation, 
 I refer to the fourth class schools for the 10,000 white children, who now 
 press into the coloured schools. That applies more 'particularly to large 
 centres like Cape Town, Port Elizabeth, and Graham's Town. I consider 
 that it is one of the most objectionable features in the working of the system. 
 that these poorer white children, chiefly Dutch speaking, owing to their 
 poverty and not being able to avail themselves of the Higher Public schools, 
 that white girls for instance, should be brought into daily contact with a very 
 low type of Cape To-\vn coloured boys. It is a very serious question. In Cape 
 Town alone, there are 2,500 white children in the Mission schools, and we 
 want a class of schools for them, leaving the Mission schools for the coloured 
 children. It opens a very wide enquiry. 
 
 31. Is there any other recommendation that has not been carried out ? 
 — Only as regards myself. I have asked to retire, and the Government 
 will not let me go. 
 
 32. "With regard to the recommendation of the Commission of 1879 as 
 to School Boards and rating powers, will you state your opinion ? — It is the 
 most difficult question in regard to education that we have to deal with. I 
 am afraid of the recommendations of the Committee of 1879. At present, 
 the Managers of Public Schools are people who are chosen by the community 
 because of their interest in the schools. A meeting is held, and the inhabi- 
 tants are invited to come forward and guarantee the local expenses ; and 
 tliose who thus show their interest iu the school, elect from their number 
 certain gentlemen who become Managers, and enter into an agreement with 
 the Education Department, so that all through we arc working with a body 
 of people who have a I'eal interest in the school. Now, if you adopt the 
 School Board System, and say thit the public schools of a district arc all to 
 be put under oue Board elected by the ratepayers, simply because they are 
 ratepayers, and that they will have to be called upon to support the school 
 out of the rates, then you will have men put in from a very different point 
 of Aiew, and the probability is that you will get most of your men put in 
 through promises not to run into expense, and instead of keeping the sym- 
 pathy of the people with you, you at once create a feeling in the country 
 that will alienate the best supporters of the school. At present, if you take 
 any public school, you will tind that the clergy and professional men are on 
 the coininittees, and most active. But I very much doubt whether you will 
 get that same agency if you call a public meeting of ratepayers and elect the 
 Board like you would do a Municipality. But, whilst I have that fear of the 
 Scliool Board system proper, I feel that our Committees of Management 
 ought to have succession, and there ought to be jwwer for them to hold 
 pro[ierty, and some means of securing tli(> perpetuity of the scliool, so as not 
 to have what there is now, a complete break at the end of three years. I 
 al.■^o think that it M-onld be only fair to those men who bear the burden of 
 working the school for three years, thn! iuey should not be called upon per- 
 sonally to put their bauds in their poiktts to make up a hona fide deficit. I
 
 h' n *^" "°* think tho deficits in many schools are anything very serious, but still, 
 K.c'&.o'. M.A. there is (lie fact that these Managers, \\hr> enter into an agreement with me 
 ixj). ^Q citnduct the school, arc not only Lurileued with the management, but with 
 Feb .'oth, 1891. all the resijonsibility with regard to money. Let mc take a case that will 
 show the hardship : — There is a full staff, say, in a large school at Stellen- 
 bosch ; an epidemic breaks out, and out of 150 children there are perhaps 
 not 50 per cent, for the quarter. There is no local income practically 
 to pay the teachers. The Government of course would say, under tho 
 circumstances, we must pay, but the Managers would be nonplusse<l as to 
 where to find their share of the money required. These epidemics are con- 
 stantly occurring throughout the Colony — diphtheria, for instance, or panics 
 such as occurred about C'radock and Tarkastad, where schools are shut up 
 for a month. Nobody pays, and it is rather hard on those gentlemen who 
 are personally interested in the school, and have done so much, to he called 
 upon to pay the deficiency. Of course, if they were extravagant and went 
 into wasteful expenditure they must bear the brunt ; but there are so many 
 inevitable difficulties which occur. I have thought it would be a good thing 
 if our lawyers could show us how to give succession to these Committees 
 under the present system, still keeping tho same system of the people 
 interested electing the Managers, who should guarantee the general expenses 
 of the school, but all exceptional deficiencies, ascertained by the Government 
 to be bona fide and unavoidable, should be made good, either wholly or partly 
 out of the Divisional Council rates, and should ho charged to the division, 
 and not to individuals, or partly to the Divisional Councils and partly to the 
 Government. 
 
 33. Mr. Rofoan.^ What do you think of the plan of having an 
 Educational Council — appointed partly by the Divisional Councils, parrly by 
 the Municipalities, and partly by the Government — in each division, all the 
 schools to remain under the same management as at present, with the same 
 system of Committees, but this Education Council should have a sort of 
 general supervision over all the Undenominational Schools, meeting perhaps 
 once in three or four months. They should he empowered to hold property, 
 and in case of a deficiency should be able to send a precept to the Divisional 
 Council to raise the money. You would then keep the system intact, would 
 you not ? — I am afraid that scheme would be too big. I think that a better 
 check would be for an oflficer of the Audit Department to examine the books 
 and go into the whole matter. If he certifies that there is a bona fide 
 deficiency, then let ihe Government give a precept or notice to the Divisional 
 Council, just as is done in London. There, the precept demands tliat a 
 certain sum of money be found ; but in this case it would be fair to say that 
 the Government will bear half. 
 
 34. How would you provide for the tenure of Public School property ? — 
 I do not see any great difficulty iu constituting a body of Trustees. 
 
 35. Dean Holmes.'] You mean some such system as exists in England ? 
 — Let them execute a deed of trust. For instance, the people of Stellenbosch 
 have their own Act of Parliament ; at Worcester, the schools are under the 
 Municipality, and there is no difficulty about succession there. 
 
 36. In England, when a school is originally founded, there is a Trust 
 Deed, and a certain number of ^Managers is mentioned as Trustees. When- 
 ever there is a vacancy, a new Manager's name is submitted for approval to 
 the Department. Those Managers hold the property ? — Our men would form 
 School Committees under the Act, but they would be iu the same position as 
 voluntary bodies would be at home as regards holding property. It is coming 
 to that, and it is curious how things work themselves out. The whole system 
 of education was never planned ; it works itself out by degrees. The greater 
 part of the property by the Public Schools bi-longs to the Kerkraad of the 
 Dutch Eeformed Church. Take for iustance the case of Piquetberg. They 
 build a school and a teacher's residence, and they say, we are quite willing
 
 to give this building up the purpose of a public school but we shall hold it ^^ ^ ^^j^ 
 ourselves in trust. They come then lo me and ask for a building grant, butK.c.M.o.. ma. 
 I say, no, I cannot give a grant to tli ! Hitch Reformed Church; we do not ^^^ 
 give grants to churches. What th<'V do then is this : they execute a deed Feb. ioth, isai. 
 to the effect that if they get a gram of money, say on the £ for £ principle, 
 the Kerkraad will engage with the Education Department that the buildings 
 shall be used only for the purposes of an Undenominational Public School, 
 and that if at any time within 20 years, they cease to be so used, tlie 
 Government will have a right to come in and recoup itself for the money 
 granted for the buildings. 
 
 37. President.'] By selling the property ? — Yes. 
 
 38. The title remains in the Kerkraad ? — Yes. The Kerkraad, if they 
 sell the property, must refund the money to the Government. 
 
 39. Mr. Theron.'] You say that the title remains in the Kerkraad ? — 
 Yes. They give us a kind of mortgage on the property. 
 
 40. Mr. Bowan.'] I believe there has been some difficulty at the Paarl, 
 for instance. They invested in school buildings and teacher's residence, and 
 then they required money, but the Kerkraad refused to raise it ; they said 
 they would not take the responsibility upon themselves, and if they wanted 
 the property back, they could get it ? — I think they have got over that ; at 
 any rate, we have a document from them to secure the property. 
 
 41. PresideHt.~\ There seem to be two questions; first, as to the consti- 
 tution of the Committees of Management, and then as to making them 
 permanent, making them corporate bodies as it were. As to the constitution 
 of the Committees, I understand that you are rather in favour of retaining 
 the present system of guarantors ? — The people are so used to the present 
 system. I think if you were to take the voice of the countiy, they would • 
 say, leave it as it is. 
 
 42. With the present system you think you have men who are respon- 
 sible, and who have an interest beyond the monetary interest in the advance- 
 ment of the school. Divisional Councils might look only to the monetary 
 interest, and therefore perhaps try to make the schools pay, and in trying to do 
 that, make them inefficient ? — There is a great risk of that, and then again, it 
 does not follow that any member of the Divisional Council will be qualified 
 to work the schools. 
 
 43. Supp'^^') you retain the present system of guarantors, but say 
 that when a u iiciency occurs, such deficiency should not be paid by the 
 guarantors, b it be a burden on the Divisional Council, you destroy the 
 guarantee, but \ ou perhaps make the governing body an extravagant one ? 
 — I would say that in exceptional cases, where anything has occurred to 
 throw an unusual burden on the Managers, that might be done, but in ordinary 
 cases they must fight their own battles. Say, for instance, that an epidemic 
 breaks out, or a building falls to pieces, or anything of that kind, tlien there 
 should be some way of relieving the guaiantors personally from obligation. 
 At present, the clergyman of the district has to pay for a great many little 
 things and make good defects ; that occurs especially in thiid-class schools. 
 Farmers will not send their children, and the teacher has to be paid, and 
 all the bills for books and repairs and so on, are made out against liim. If any 
 sickness comes, the teacher has to be paid, and the burden may fall on one 
 man. In ordinary cases, it is not probable that any st-rious deficit will 
 occur, but in such an immense country as this, we are always subject to 
 epidemics. 
 
 44. Practically, under the present system, the Government pays half of 
 the teacher's salary where they approve of the school ? — Yes, half of the 
 salary. 
 
 45. Do you pay half the expense of the buildings, because that is not 
 provided for iu the Act ? — Only when Parliament is as liberal as it was last 
 year.
 
 10 
 
 , ."''„. 40. Practically now do vou pay half ? — No. There is merely a provision 
 
 Latghnm Dale, • • i r i_ •! i .' » 
 
 K.c MO , MA for special grauts in aid of buililiiifjs. 
 
 ^ ^" 47. IIow would it do, as a niK', wlii'ic tlirso aided schools are started. 
 
 FbI. 20th. 1891. for the Government not only to pay half th« teacher's salary, but also half 
 the expense of buildiug.s V — Tiiat was the resolution adopted by the Dutch 
 Keformed Church. 
 
 48. The difficulty is to find the other half through some other medium 
 than the guarantors. Is there any other medium that could be established 
 throughout the country ? — It would be a heavy tax upon the Government to 
 have to pay half the rent of the school-house and of the teachers house, 
 besides giving grants in aid of buildings to be erected. You are draining 
 the Government two ways. Last year the Parliament voted £25,000 for 
 school buildings, but if in addition to that you go to Parliament and say. 
 pay half the rent of any buildings that are required, it would be a very 
 serious thing. 
 
 49. School buildings and rent are very much the same, are they not, for 
 where you have buildings you have no rent ? — Take the case of Stellenbosch, 
 where they have had large grants for buildings, and are still in debt ; and 
 interest has to be paid instead of rent. 
 
 50. Dr. Berry.'] Have you made an approximate estimate of what it 
 would really cost the Government to put up a system of school buildings 
 right through the Colony ? — No. The great difficulty is this, if you are 
 dealing with towns, you may put up permanent buildings, and there is not 
 much risk ; but if you are dealing with schools on farms, you may erect 
 buildings to-day and in two or three years time they are not wanted, and fall 
 to pieces. 
 
 51. President.] In that case there would be a loss somewhere; the 
 question is, who is to bear it ? — All buildings should belong to tho local 
 authorities. 
 
 52. And should they be at the expense of building them ? — With the 
 assistance of the Govornment. The proper plan is for Parliament to continue 
 tlu^ system of grants in aid of buildings belonging to the people. 
 
 53. JUr. Thcroii.] You mean on the £ for £ principle ? — Yes. 
 
 54. President] You mean that the Government should give £1 for 
 every £1 found by the Divisional Council or Municipality. \Yho ought to 
 fiu'l the other £1 ; the guarantors, or the Divisional Council, or the Munici- 
 paiiy ? — Some years ago I took the view that the Divisional Councils might 
 fairly, out of the general rates, provide the other half. 
 
 55. Do you know what is done in Engluud under the Board system ? — 
 T!io ratepayers have to pay interest for the borrowed money. I think the 
 loans amount to more tlian twenty millions. 
 
 5G. Whatever there is deficient, the rates have to pay ? — Yes. 
 
 57. So that if a building costs £o,000, and the Government finds 
 £1.000, and the school is not pro.«perous and goes down, and the mortgage 
 is called in and the property sold, resulting in a loss, you think that loss 
 ouyht to fall on the Divisional Council and not on the guarantors ? — I should 
 prefer a system by which public school buildings should never be 
 niurlgaged at all. I should say let the Government pay on the £ for £ 
 principle as an aid, but cm the distinct understanding that the building is to 
 be free from all debt. If the people can raise the money to meet the Govern- 
 ment contribution, well and good, but if they cannot, then I am afraid you 
 must say they must hire a building. The question is, whether, if they can- 
 not afford to build, the G iverument will assist them to pay the rent — that is 
 tlio hardship complained of in the resolution of the Synod, that the Govern- 
 ment gives half the salary of the teacher, but the committees find all the 
 buildings and also the teacher's house, without any additional aid from the 
 Government. 
 
 58. But suppose Government pays half the salary and half the build-
 
 11 
 
 ing, letting the committee, whatever the body be, whether guarantors or i^" r i 
 
 Divisional Councils, find the other half of the salary and building ? — Suppose k.c"m'.g". m.a. 
 they cannot erect a building at all, and cannot comply with the conditions, i^ljl). 
 and thej' are obliged to hire a temporary building, then the Government Feb. 20tb, i89i. 
 might find half the rent, and the managers find the other half. 
 
 59. Bev. Coei2ee.~\ Would it not be safer for the Government to pay 
 two-thirds of the salaries, leaving the managers to pay one-third. Would 
 not that assist them to get buildings ? — At present sve pay five-twelftlis 
 against seven-twelfths paid by the managers. You would like us to put it 
 the other way. 
 
 60. Pre§ident.~\ Suppose the Government is there, the other body has 
 still to be found — the question is, who shall the other body be to find the 
 other half. If you say the Divisional Council, they will want to have some 
 control, and the moment they begin to exercise control, they may lower the 
 efficiency of the teachers by offering small salaries ? — The appointment of 
 managers in the larger places is now practically settled by the people them- 
 selves. In the case of 200 third-class schools on farms, it would be absurd 
 for one to send a notice to the farmers, and say you must go through such 
 and such a routine, call a meeting and elect a committee. To get a com- 
 mittee for a third-class school on a farm, or a cluster of farms. I generally 
 get the clergyman or schoolmaster to go down and ask the farmers to come 
 together, and in a fe^v minutes the)" agree as to the managers, who sign an 
 agreement with me, and the thing is settled ; but if you interpose any very 
 minute machinery between the Department and the farmer, there would be 
 no school at all. 
 
 61. Will not the one grow into the other when they get more into the 
 way of working it ? — No. I find that the farmers are getting more jealous 
 of their privileges, and insist upon managing their own schools. Many of 
 the little schools have only one manager, or the principal farmer of the dis- 
 trict, with the clergyman. 
 
 62. Seeing that so much depends upon the teachers as to the success of 
 the school, would it not be well if no teacher is ever appointed except with 
 the approval of the Government ? — That is the case now in public schools. 
 
 63. I mean on farm schools ? — That is what I want. I have not that 
 power yet. No one employed on a private farm school ought to expect 
 Government aid unless his qualifications have been approved. 
 
 64. That is to say, they can recommend, but you must approve ? — Yes. 
 You must have evidence as to the teacher's fitness and ability. 
 
 65. Rev. 3Joorrees.'\ Is there a certain class of private farm schools where 
 the teachers are not approved by Government ? — Yes. I am not sure that I 
 can refuse the grant. The Act stipulates that if so many children are present 
 at the inspection, I am to pay so much per head. 
 
 66. Mr. Rowan ~\ You suggested last year, I think, that certificated 
 teachers should get £3, but that was not carried ?— It has never been before 
 the Ilouse yet. 
 
 67. Yoix recommended it in your report, did you not ? — It was recom- 
 mended by the Legislative Council, and I said I did not object to it, because 
 it was working in the right direction. 
 
 68. If the difference is so great between certificated and uncertificated 
 teachers, the farmers would be more likely to employ certificated tlian un- 
 certificated teachers, would they not V — Yes. I have a case now M'here a 
 i!armer savs that his wife is the governess ; I want to stop such cases. 
 
 69. Rev. Moor)-ees.~\ Is there no danger in the case of grants given to 
 certificated teachers, that you help the rich man more tlian the poor. The 
 rich as a rule, can offer better salaries, and because the supply of cer- 
 tificated teachers is limited, they get the certificated teachers, but the poor, 
 who cannot offer such large salaries, have to be satisfied with uncrrtificatco 
 
 [G. 9-'91.] g
 
 12 
 
 Sir eachers, not because they l>refer thoin, but simply because they carinot pay 
 
 k!c.'m.o'..'m'!a. certificated teachers ?— All I want is to have a check upon positively in- 
 
 LL.D. efficient teachers. 
 Kcb 2oth^i89i. 70. r resilient.'] You think that every teacher who is aided by Govern- 
 
 ment should be approved of by the (iovernuient before he takes the appoint- 
 ment V — Yes. There niiKht be a lower standard adopted, or what may bo 
 called a provisional certihcate. "We might have a plan by which as soon as 
 they have satisfied a competent committee, consisting say of the clergyman 
 and the schoolmaster, that they really coidd read and write in English and 
 Dutch and could work simple aritliiuetic and so on, they would get a pro- 
 visional certificate. It is just this, that these men are tho relics of the old 
 niecsters. As long as they remain in the district, the farmer does not know 
 what to do — tliey dominate tlie farmers and will not go. 
 
 71. Dr. Bern/. ) yhould any limitation be put to the grants for buildings 
 or for rents, in your opinion? — Ihe present regulation goes as far as £1,000. 
 
 72. Who would be the judge as to whether a school was necessary, and 
 therefore whether a grant was to be issued V — I tliiuk you must depend upon 
 your Inspectors, and have a sufficient staff, so that they will know every 
 place in tho district. 
 
 73. So that whenever an application for a building grant came, the 
 Inspector would give his report ? — Uc would visit the place. At present I 
 have not men euou,:;h. I have to depend chiefly on the Civil Commissioners. 
 
 V4. PresidenI, J You do not think that any building ought to be brought 
 into existence without the approval of the Inspector? — He should certify 
 that it is necessary. The whole payment in England in fact rests with the 
 inspectors ; but they here do not deal with money matters ; they are only the 
 advisers of the Department. 
 
 75. Dean Holmes.'] If th(! Government aided any building on the £ for 
 £ principle, you would recommend that the .school should belong absolutely 
 to the local authorities. That they should make arrangements for holding 
 it in trust, Avith this provision, that, if at any time it should be found neces- 
 sary to sell the property, the GoveruuK^ut should recoup itself? — Yes. 
 
 76. Mr. Rowan.'] Do you renu^mber whether any Act exists for incor- 
 porating schools ? — It did not suit us. I am not quite sure that we are 
 ready for anything of that kind. 
 
 77. Could you give us any information as to what steps should be taken 
 to give the Boards of Managemeut perpetual succession ; and provide for tho 
 tenure of I'ublic School property? — That is the real technical difficulty. It 
 is more a question for the lawyers than for me. I think that the property 
 should be secured by being in the hands of local trustees. 
 
 78. lias any change been made in regard to aid to Mission Schools ? — 
 No ; but it is proposed by means of the fourth class schools to provide for the 
 white children attending Mission Schools, so that thej' may get a better 
 education — more suited to their wants. 
 
 79. You say that the last Commission recommended laigcr grants to 
 these schools — was there any definite amount stated ? — It was a recommenda- 
 tion that they should have more money. Instead of £75 a year being the 
 maximum, it was to be £125. 
 
 80. What do you propose with regard to that recommendation ? — What 
 I want to do is this. Mission Schools really have assumed a new phase. 
 There are Mission Schools for the coloured people, and I should leave them 
 alone. Then there are Mission Schools that are almost entirely attended by 
 white children. I should give them the option of becoming fourth class schools, 
 with a very enlarged system of aid, the aid should grow with the number of 
 childixin. At present a school for the poorer class gets £75 a ycixr and no 
 more. There is no encouragement to admit another 100 children. The 
 expenses will grow enormously, but tho aid does not grow ; it is proposed to 
 restrict the Mission School aid to the coloured schools, properly so called, and
 
 13 
 
 to give the others an opportxinity of changing their management to some , ^j^ 
 extent, putting themselves under the fourth class system, the schools being k.c.m.g., m.a. 
 under committees chosen at a public meeting, but not requiring the Tnanagers ^^^ 2'^iPi89i 
 to enter into a guarantee for an equal sum to the Government grant, because 
 the object of the school is simply to educate the poor. If the managers will 
 provide the buildings and do their duty in controlling the school, they will 
 be at liberty to raise a local income as far as they can by small iPees, but it 
 would be hard for them to raise as large an amount for their teachers as the 
 Government grants ; and my proposal was, that if this public committee of a 
 fourth class school would undertake the obligation of management, they should 
 have grants on a liberal scale giving them for one teacher, where there are 
 from 40 to 60 children a £50 grant ; from 50 to 80 children an additional £30 
 for a female assistant, who will also be the sewing mistress ; and for 80 
 children up to 100, an additional £20, so that a school attended by 100 
 children would have three grants — first, the teacher, £50 ; assistant and 
 sewing mistress, £30, and an additional assistant £20 — making £100 
 altogether ; then I encourage them to get more children by saying, that as 
 soon as you get 120 children, the grant for the first teacher will be increased 
 to £60, the grant for the Infant teacher £40, and the grant for the assistant 
 and sewing mistress will be £30, that is the next step ; for every 30 children 
 above 120, an additional £20 for an extra assistant ; for every child that is 
 introduced into the fourth class school and educated by the managers, the 
 Government grant will be £1 a year, a head, fixed. The school up to 100 
 children gets altogether £100, and above 120, an extra £20 for every thirty 
 scholars. Then I propose that these schools admit one free scholar for every 
 £2 grant. They may levy small fees, but if the Government finds that 
 certain children, say in large families, require absolutely free education, the 
 managers will be bdund to admit one free scholar for every £2 of Govern- 
 ment money. 
 
 81. Dean Holmes.'] That, in very poor places, would reduce the grant to 
 ten shillings a head ? — The Government gets back some of its money in free 
 education. Supposing the Government puts in 20 or 30 free scholars, it 
 must give also an extra £20 for an assistant. 
 
 82. But supposing the number is only 18, you get no pay for an assistant ? 
 — In a big school, one teacher is quite enough for 30 children. I do not 
 think that the money obligation upon the management would be at all a 
 serious one, as soon as they have secured their buildings and furniture. 
 
 83. PresHent.'] I understand that there would be no limit. As the 
 number of children increases, the grant goes on increasing ? — £20 for every 
 30 children additional. 
 
 84. With regard to these managers. Have they to find the buildings ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 85. The Government does not contribute at all ? — The fourth-class 
 Undenominational Schools would be on the half-and-half principle. 
 
 86. In a large town would you have more than one fourth-class 
 Undenominational School ? — In a large place like Cape Town you would 
 certainly want more. 
 
 87. If so, would not you find various denominations each working a 
 separate school ? — I would not have anything to do with denominations. 
 There is a very large mission at Bree-street, belonging to the TDutch Eeformed 
 Church, and there are two-thirds white children, and one-third Malays and 
 coloured people, a very objectionable mixture. If the congregation at 
 Bree-street say they have a school with a mixture of coloured and white 
 people, and they want to separate the two classes, and ask what they 
 are to do, I tell them that they can call a meeting of the inhabitants of the 
 district, Bree-street district, and the committee then appointed can inform 
 me whether they think a fourth-class school is necessary. If so, they 
 appoint a permanent committee to manage the school on behalf of the
 
 14 
 
 , ^^' n , inhabitnnts of tho district, and I deal with that coramittee onlv. I leave 
 
 K.t'.u.o . MA. tiu> Dutch Churoli luithorifios to work their own mission. If they manage 
 
 llkU. ^q „j,j jjj^, ohii-f Y(>ici> in the nianaL^oniont of tlie new school all the better for 
 
 Fth. 2(11)1, 1R91. them. The body that starts the fourth-class school will be thoroughly 
 
 repre.sented on the committee, but they will be put there by the public 
 
 voice, not by the Church. 
 
 88. Suj)pose there are two religious sections, both very nearly equal, 
 and one gets an Undenominational School appointed, and being appointed it 
 would to a great extent control and govern, and the other section will not 
 go to that school unless it has something to do with the managemeut, which 
 it finds it has not got, and it wants to start another scliool ? — The Depart- 
 ment comes in and says : You must not poach upon this district. Here is 
 already a fourih-class school and one is quite enoueh for that district ; if 
 you want another fourth-class school go to a vacant district. 
 
 89. Hut the congregation that is most nunuTous gets the control, does 
 it not? — That is as it ought to be. Cape Town is divided into 21 districts 
 for mission school purposes, and they are assigned by the Depart rnent each 
 to some particular religious body, because that body predominates there. It is 
 natural that we should give the preference to that religious body in organising 
 the fourth-class school. 
 
 90. The effect of your system would be to perpetuate those districts 
 under the management of denominations, would it not ? — The denominations 
 may get the management by public consent ; but I do not help them to 
 get" it. 
 
 91. But you help them by recognising the fact that they are already in 
 existence, otherwise you would abolish them ? — They are in existence ; but 
 I say, if you wish to avail your.self of this new scheme of aid, you must put 
 aside your denominational character, and become as far as you can, a shar(>r 
 in the management of the undenominational school. 
 
 92. Do you know whether that scheme is approved of by any of the 
 denominations ? — Yes, the Dutch Eeformed Church Synod approves of it. 
 I should consult the committee of the nearest undenominational school to 
 know whether it would interfere with their work, and the new school would 
 be started with the consent of the Government. 
 
 93. Jlr. Roiciin.^ IIow would it do to divide Cape Town into a number 
 of wards or districts, as is done for mission purposes, and let a fourth-class 
 school be established independently of any denominational body y — The 
 Government would have to fix the districts for the fourth-class schools ; if 
 the inhabitants do not take advantage of the rules, you leave the schools as 
 at present. 
 
 94. Presiilcntr^ With regard to religious teaching in these fourth-class 
 schools since Mr. Ilofmeyr's motion has been carried y — Everyone has perfect 
 freedom. 
 
 95. You would have them subject to the conditions of that resolution ? 
 — Yes ; they would be subject to the condition which gives them freedom 
 
 'in teaching religion. 
 
 96. Dean Holmes.'] What provision would you suggest for the election 
 of this committee of management for these fourth-class schools ? — I would 
 simply issue a public notice and call a pulilic meeting. 
 
 97. And leave it to those present at the meeting ? — I see no other way 
 to do it. 
 
 98. Pre>ii<Ient.'\ The meeting must consist of ratepayers, must it not? — 
 Resident househohlers. If you have any doubt as to who is a resident 
 householder, you must see whether they are ou the list of those who pay rates. 
 
 99. Dr. Iierry.'\ Who would call the public meetiug ? — The people who 
 wanted the fourth-class school would write to the office and get instructions. 
 
 100. Who Would be the convener? — The promoters of the fourth -el u.vs 
 school would get instructions from the Education Office what course to follow.
 
 15 
 
 The regulations are already printed. Put up a notice in a public place in ^" ^ 
 the district, or publish it a certain nuinb-'r of times in the newspaper, three k.c"m!iT., u"a , 
 weeks beforehand, that you are going to ask the Govei-nmeut to establish a ^^-^^ 
 fourth-class school in such a place. Feb. 2uth, wn 
 
 101. Presidentr\ The limits of the district would be defined by you 
 after the application was made ? — You must make the application first, and 
 then a certain area would be arranged. 
 
 102. Dr. Berry.~\ In calling meetings in towns and villages for the 
 purpose of choosing managers, the Civil Commissioner convenes the inhabi- 
 tants does he not ? — Sometimes ; there is no rule. 
 
 103. In towns, the notice generally emanates from the Civil Commis- 
 sioner's Office ; would it not do to have some arrangement here for calling 
 meetings in connection with these schools ? — It would be rather difficult to 
 have to wait for the Resident Magistrate or Civil Commissioner in some 
 places. It Avould be much easier for the Department to give notice. 
 
 104. Rev. Coetsee.'] Would there be any objection to having two schools 
 of the fourth-class in one place, if the community were agreeable ? —They 
 must not poach on each other's preserves. You assign an area to a fourth- 
 class school according to the population of the district. 
 
 105. Suppose the managers of existing schools do not object to the 
 starting of a second school ? — The Government would say, why should we 
 pay twice. 
 
 106. President.~\ You do not pay twice over, you only pay in proportion 
 to the number. Suppose in one area you have 1,000 Eoman Catholics, 
 1,000 Dutch Reformed Church, and say 500 others, and suppose the Roman 
 Catholics and the Dutch Reformed Church practically agree that it would be 
 better to have two fourth-class undenominational schools in that area, and 
 the Government pays in proportion to the number ; nhat objection is there 
 to that ? — We should have nothing to do with the Roman Catholics or any 
 otlier religious body, but only with the public in establishing fourth-class 
 schools. In Cape Town the mission school districts have been assigned for 
 the last 30 years ; the distri(!t assigned to the Roman Catholics is the one 
 where they predominate, and the district assigned to the Dutch Reformed 
 Church in Bree-street is because that Chui'ch predominates there. 
 
 107. The practical result is that people living in Bree-street, if they 
 are Roman Catliolics, go to a Roman Catholic school in another district ? — 
 That must be the case everywhere in a large town. 
 
 108. But take the case of a smaller town where you find two classes 
 nearly equal, and they each want a school, and secular education would be 
 advanced better by two schools than one because of the interest taken by each 
 denomination, could it not be made to work in that way, provided that all 
 conditions as to religion are compUed with ?— Every Church is now allowed 
 to teach its own religion, with a conscience clause ; one secular school is enough. 
 
 109. Might it not be found that in a fourth-class school too much 
 religion is taught, or rather a sort of religion that is not approved of, and so 
 they prefer to have another undenominational school ? — 1 should not anticipate 
 these difficulties for years to come. 
 
 110. Rev. Moorrecs.'] Would not the suggestion thrown out by the 
 Chairman introduce the principle of sectarianism into our public schools, 
 which we have tried to ki;ep out y — That is why I say in organizing fourth- 
 class schools I would have nothing to do witli the religious denomination. 
 
 111. Rev. Coetzee.~\ Our schools are called undenominational, but is it 
 not the fact that they are more or less under the iuttuence and management 
 of the churches ? — Not the churches, but the members of the church who 
 are in tlie majority. It is an accident that the members of the Dutch 
 Church happen to be in the majority. 
 
 112. I mean that in reality we have now very few undenominational
 
 16 
 
 £,iH /,^.» /),.v 9<'^ool3- The South African College might be called undonominntinnal ? 
 K.c M.(t . M.A. Yes ; and the Victoria CoUogo un<l<M- its (i\vn Act of Parliament, and the 
 
 Luo. Qj.gy Institute. 
 Feb. uoth, 1S91. 113. Mr. T/iero/t.'] According to what von said in regard to the different 
 
 divisions in f'ajjo Town for the fourlli class scihools, would you not really be 
 bringing in sectariuuism ? — I am breaking down sectarian schools, 
 
 114. You say that you ciividc the districts so that where the Roman 
 Catholics predominate, tliey get a school, and so on ? — The present system is 
 for mission schools. There are 21 districts, each one assigned to a religions 
 body, these are the mission schools for coloured people, but in the fourth class 
 schools there would be no such division for religious purposes ; the division 
 is according to the population. 
 
 115. Bei'. Moorrees.] Would it be a definite understanding that they 
 are for white children ? — I cannot say " oti/// '' for white children exactly, 
 hut their object is to take the white children out from among the coloured 
 classes. 
 
 116. What guarantee is there that the poorer white children would 
 remain in those fourth class schools, and then they would degenerate into 
 schools for coloured children again? — I do not know what guarantee there is, 
 except that the managers will take very good care that the objects for which 
 they get the school up are carried out. If the school becomes an ordinary 
 coloured school, then the grant will of course cease. 
 
 117. Dr. Berr!j.~\ Do you propose to give the managers power to exclude 
 coloured children, because there is the difficulty of spoiling the school by the 
 introduction of the coloured element. Would it not be advisable to give the 
 Tuanagers power to regulate who are to be the scholars and who are not ? — 
 That is a dangerous power to put into an Act of Parliament, as many off- 
 coloured children in Cajic Town consider themselves white. I have had to 
 deal with these difficulties now for more than 30 years, and it is curious 
 how they all vanish in practice. 
 
 118. Apparently they do not vanish. These mission schools were 
 establishod for coloured children, and the white children have evicted them ? 
 — The white children have pressed into them because there is no other place 
 for them to go to. 
 
 119. President.'] Is there not the danger of the coloured children pres- 
 sing into the white schools ? — I do not think so ; the fees would be four 
 times as much, in the first place. 
 
 120. But many of the coloured parents are very well off, and they 
 would not look to that. They have already had their children with white 
 children and they would not like to be thrust back ? — I think it would be 
 just the other way ; the coloured people complain that they are pushed out. 
 
 121. But it is desirable that they should go ? — Yes. 
 
 122. Then if it is desirable that they should go, why should not the 
 Government lay down a rule that they should not go to the schools intended 
 for whites ? — I do not think the fTOV(Tnmf nt would take the responsibility of 
 saying who is Malay and who is a coloured person. 
 
 123. Dr. Berry.] Would the managers have power to exclude a pupil 
 on their own responsibility ? — That is too arbitrary a power, and they should 
 not have it. 
 
 124. Mr. Rowan.'] The thing is this, if you have a fourth class school, 
 you have a number of whites and a very few coloured children. In the 
 mission schools you have a preponderance of blacks, and thi; coloured children 
 will generally go where you have many coloured, and the whites will go just 
 as they do in the uiideuDminational schools at present. That is the only safe- 
 guard you have that ihr. mixture would not be so great? — The serious 
 objection is to tlie mixture of the so-called street Arab with the white girls. 
 
 12G. Dr. Berry.] We all object to that; the thing is, how to remedy 
 it ? — You have to leave these things to work themselves out.
 
 17 
 
 126. Mr. Theron.'] With regard to this sectarian aspect of these fourth S" 
 class schools, would not the present proposal tend to assign certain centres to k.c"m!g., m.a. 
 certain denominations? — The great difficulty we have to face is the moral ll.d. 
 evil. It is a very serious question for the Governinont to go on allowing Feb. 20th, !89i. 
 white children, because they are poor, to be depressed to the lowest level. 
 
 127. President.'] Where is the evil when you have the fourth class 
 undenominational scheme, and you get the whites to leave the other mission 
 schools, and you more or less assign districts in accordance with the religious 
 tendencies of those districts ? — I have no right to know the religious tenden- 
 cies in the districts. 
 
 128. Mr. Theron.'] I still maintain that these fourth-class undenomina- 
 tional schools should be under the management of existing Boards, or the 
 managers of existing schools. Take a country town like Worcester for 
 instance. You have a good many poor children there, and, on account of 
 their clothes, they are not able to attend the undenominational school, and 
 they make use of the mission school ; but now, by establishing a fourth- 
 class school under the same managers in that town, those managers are 
 enabled to open a school by means of which they can draw all those white 
 children out of the mission school, and so the fourth-class school becomes a 
 preparatory school for the higher schools? — In Cape Town you cannot do that. 
 
 129. But you will naturally take into consideration the different 
 religious denominations. You will have Mahomedans on the one side and 
 Roman Catholics ou the other, and the Dutch C!hurch on another, and when 
 the children are taken out of the mission schools, they will go to certain 
 denominational centres, will they not ?— If the children prefer to mix with 
 the coloured people, and will not accept the fourth-class schools, we must 
 leave them alone. 
 
 130. My difficulty is, that you virtually establish a class of sectarian 
 schools ? — What could you do in Cape Town, where you have no committee 
 to work with. The College Council by law is made manager of the unde- 
 nominational schools, but that College Council is not a likely body to look 
 after elementary instruction all over the citJ^ 
 
 131. The Eomau Catholics have a large number of pupils, have they 
 not ? — They will not work in with the fourth-class schools. I take it for 
 granted, at least, that they will not, and I do not wish to compel them. I 
 might add that there is a little tendency to deception among religious bodies 
 in getting aid for mission schools, and thus providing for their white children. 
 The children do not belong to any missionary congregation. 
 
 132. President.] Then practically this deception is being worked with 
 the cognizance of your Department, which recognizes these deceptive dis- 
 tricts, and you work these mission schools through the denominations under 
 this deceptive principle ? — We want to correct that. 
 
 133. Dean Holmes.] Can you explain to us how it is that in the towns 
 there are rarely, if ever, third-class undenominational schools, and yet you 
 propose to give us fourth-class undenominational schools ? — The third-class 
 undenominational schools were projected expressly for farmers and for schools 
 on farms ; they were never intended for towns, and you will find that all 
 the third-class undenomiuatioual schools, except one or two, are actually in 
 small villages or ou farms. That is the unit of the whole system ; you begin 
 with a farm school of the third-class, and then you move up to a village 
 school of the second-class, and then to a town school of the first-class ; so 
 that the reason why the third-class schools do not occur in towns is, that 
 they Avere intended only for farms. 
 
 134. Then practically you reduce the towns to' first-class schools only ? 
 — With preparatory departments. 
 
 135. President.] And do those preparatory dcpariineuts fit in with the 
 wants of the poorer classes ? — To a certain extent, but there is a residuum 
 yet that you do not reach.
 
 18 
 ,*' , , 136. Deun IIolmes.~\ In Graham's Town wc have a first-class unde- 
 
 l.aighiim I>:tli, ■•111 iij'-iiii J 
 
 iv.o.M.G., M.A. nomiuatiunal school, a preparatory school, ana a mission school, but no second 
 LL^. pj. third-class school ? — It is not intended that there should be. The first- 
 Fob. 20th, 1891. class school ouf^ht to be three schwh in one — an upper department, a middle, 
 and a preparatory- 
 
 137. President.'] Would the preparatory department correspond to the 
 third-class school ? — It is about equal to the third-class, and the aid they 
 get is about the same. 
 
 138. Ought they not to take the poorer classes in? — Exactly; the 
 undenominational public school ought to take in the whole of the poorer 
 white population. 
 
 139. But if that be so, that they ought to and do not, if you create a 
 fourth-class undenominational school ■with that motive, is it not piobuble 
 that the children will be taken in because pressure will be brought to bear 
 by the denominations in excluding them. With regard to mission schools. 
 are there not some places where mission schools are composed of various 
 denominations ; they meet together and ask for a mission school V — A mission 
 school ought to be in direct conncctiou with a missionary society or church ; 
 but I think there is one mission school, .so called, that is not under a 
 denomination ; that is somewiiere near the Sunday's Kiver. I objected tliat 
 it was not so connected with any religious body. One of the clergy makes 
 himself responsible. It is a settlement near the Sunday's Kiver. 
 
 140. Is there not such a school at Queenstown? — It is what is called 
 as a Free Mission. It is difficult to say what particular religious body 
 that is connected with, but it was intended to be a mission school. 
 
 141. And now what is it called ? — They call it a Free Mission, but I 
 call it simply a mission school. 
 
 142. That school is really an undenominational school, is it not? — If 
 they like to make it so. We only aid it as belonging to a missionary body, 
 which is composed of different denominations. 
 
 143. Arc they principally coloured children ? — I think not. There is 
 a mission of that character at Queenstown, and another at King William's 
 Town, got up by the Ivev. Don ; he is the manager. They are both 
 undenominational in working, but they are aided as mission schools. 
 
 144. Dr. Bcrri/.'] That is a jujint that was raised, that particular mission 
 school in Queenstown, known locally as tlu^ Elementary Aided School, and 
 officially as a mission school. It is managed by a committee chosen by the 
 public, and has no connection with any denomination at all ? — I do not know 
 how they get the committee ; it is simply a mission school to the Department. 
 
 145. That shows that the Department will allow a mission school to 
 exist which is not connected with any religious body, does it not ? — I 
 fight against it, because the law states that a mission school shall be con- 
 sidered to be under tlie control of the Missionary Society or Clmrch with 
 which it is connected. It does not deprive me of the power of having a free 
 mission, but as a rule I pn^fer to deal with a religious body direct. 
 
 140. What class of teachers would you propose for the fourth class 
 school ; would they be all certificated teachers ? — The head teacher, I con- 
 sider, will have to be well qualified, but with regard to the assistants, 
 Government sliould be satisfied that they can teach the necessary elementary 
 subjects. The amount of aid in a large school of 120 children will give £60 
 for the head teacher, the committee will be able to make up say £40, so that 
 there would be £100 a year at least for the teacher. 
 
 147. Up to what standard do you e.xpect work to be done in the fourth- 
 class schools ?— Up to the highest standard, the sixth. That is only elementary 
 work. On the private farm schools they easily come up to the fifth standard, 
 and in the aborigines schools they object that I do not take them for the 
 sixth, so that I think in town schools I could expect a qualified teacher to 
 bring the children up to the sixth standard.
 
 19 
 
 148. President.'] What school would they be moved into afterwards ? — ^ 
 From the character of the children I do not anticipate tliat they would move K-aM^J!, ma. 
 up to any other. I propose that the education should be complete, and that ^^•" - 
 
 it should include commercial arithmetic, bookkeeping, and freehand drawing, Feb. 2 ah, issi. 
 so as to give a completeness to the business-like character of the scliool. 
 No provision whatever would be made for old languages or mathematics. 
 
 149. Rev. Moorrees.~\ Would there not be some danger of these fourth- 
 class schools doing the work of the other public schools that might be in the 
 same place ? — It is my business to prevent that. Take Cape Town, for in- 
 stance, there is no other public school for them to come in contact with, 
 
 150. I do not mean Cape Town, but smaller places? — Fourth-clasa 
 schools would not be established in small places ; they are only for populous 
 towns. 
 
 151. Would that be distinctly understood? — Yes; we do not want 
 them in smaller places. 
 
 152. Mr. Rowan.] In Cape Town and Port Elizabeth, I suppose, and 
 possibly Graaff-Eeinet. I heard in that place of 50 or 60 white children, 
 girls especially, who had not clothing sufficiently decent to enable them to 
 attend the upper school ? — These schools are intended for the larger towns. 
 
 153. Dr. Berry.] Would you have a definite limit of population for 
 these fourth-class schools ? — I do not know what the population is in each 
 town. 
 
 154. Does not the census give it ? — The last censiis gave us no trust- 
 worthy information. I was worse off than ever. 
 
 155. Mr. Roivan.] It would depend upon the number of children 
 requiring the particular aid, would it not ? — Yes ; of a school-going age. 
 Stellenbosch is a place where the number of children of school-going age is 
 abnormally high, because they come from all parts of the colony, the Free 
 State, and the Transvaal. 
 
 156. They would not go to the fourth-class school, would they ? — 
 Stellenbosch wants such a school, because there is a large number of poor 
 scholars, and they are very backward. 
 
 157. Mr. Iheron.] Does not Wellington want a fourth-class school ? — 
 They have a preparatory school there, as we call it, and Worcester has two. 
 
 158. I understand that you want to have these schools established so as 
 to take the white children out of the mission schools, from among the 
 blacks ? — And really to supplement the first-class schools in the towns ; to do 
 the work that is not done by them. 
 
 159. But these fourth-class schools will be no help to the country 
 villages where you have a mission school. They will not help the existing 
 School Boards to get the white children out of the mission schools, will thi'V ? 
 — 1 do not think as a rule that in the country places white children go to the 
 coloured schools. 
 
 160. How about the poor children in the villages and towns? — We 
 must compel the existing public schools to throw out preparatory departments. 
 
 161. Would not they be fourth-class ?— No ; they are an addition to 
 the public school. 
 
 162. Dr. Berry.] Is there not a necessity for establishing a proper 
 Education Board in a place like Cape Town, to deal with the whole school 
 question, as to what number of schools shall exist, their character, and so on. 
 Why should Government or Parliament allow the religious bodies to take up 
 work that should be in its own hands and thoroughly under its own control ? 
 — You must look to the expense. If you can find a body of men in any 
 town in South Africa who will honestly do the work, you might n-ake the 
 experiment, but I doubt whether yon will get the men. They will not take 
 the trouble unless it is a paid Board. 
 
 163. Is it not time that in a large town like this, something was done 
 [G. 0— '01 ] D
 
 20 
 
 . , , through a Board, either elected bi 
 
 l.augham Hale, " ' i o i • .1 t i 
 
 K.C.M.G., MA. LTOvernmont, to carr)' on the work or education : — 1 do not see the necessity 
 ^ ^^ - for it. Extend your present agencies a little, and give a little nion^ liberal 
 
 Feb. 20th, 1891. aid, and the whole work of education in Cajie Town will he thoroughly pro- 
 vided for without any toniplicated machinery. It is a very economical plan 
 to work Cape Town through the missionary bodies. I get 6,000 children to 
 school daily, and it does not cost the Government very much. 
 
 104. Who bears the cost? — The religious bodies mostly. 
 
 105. Is that fair to thera ? — If you ask the religious bodies whether it 
 is fair, they are sure to say they would like a little more money. 
 
 166. It seems to me that the question comes to this, whether the Govern- 
 ment is to do more on its own responsibility, or whether it shall advance 
 money to religious bodies ? — It brings us back to the original departure. In 
 1 859 I found that under a system of schools managed by the Government 
 the people took no interest whatever. They simply said, we do not appoint 
 the teachers, we have no voice whatever in the management of the school, 
 and we do not send our childi'cu, and I am afraid tliat the more you get 
 Government to interfere, the less, interest the people will take. I found, for 
 instance, an Established Government School in 185'.», costing the Government 
 between .£400 and £500 a year, where there were three pupils, one being 
 the son of the master, and the two others coloured children that were brought 
 in to make up, and when I visited the better class of the inhabitants, I 
 said I thought it was a great di.sgracc to their town. They replied that it 
 was not a disgrace to the town, but to the Government. 
 
 107. President.'] And had they other schools doing the work?— Of 
 course they had all their own private schools ; they said they were not going 
 to be bothered with the Government arrangements. 
 
 168. I suppose the reason was because the Govcrmment had not a very 
 efficient master ? — There was a very efficient master ; I sui)pose one of the 
 best educated masters ever sent out, but the Government never looked after 
 him. 
 
 ion. Dean Holmes.] Has not public opinion on educational matters 
 advanced so much since 1859, that we are ripe for further advances now ? — Not 
 for Government interference. 
 
 170. President.] Suppose you get the people to interfere and to elect 
 these Boards — the burden to be upon the people — although they may to some 
 extent try to work the schools cheaply, you will force them to take an interest 
 to protect their own pockets ; and if you exercise some control over them 
 by enabling the Government to force them to provide good and efficient 
 teachers, would not you have a system started which would grow with the 
 growth of the people ? — I do not know whether it would suit other parts, hut 
 it would not suit Cape Town. The education of Cape Town would certainly 
 not be promoted by a Public Board. The various religious bodies would 
 stand aloof, and they would still go on with their own schools. The Board 
 might got up schools, but it would have to get them up in spite of the 
 religious bodies. 
 
 171. Was not that the case in England, where the whole system of 
 education was in the hands of denominations or voluntary bodies, aided by 
 Government ; did it not become necessary to found the Board School system, 
 and has not that taken a start now ; is it not flourishing and almost super- 
 seding the other system ? — That is a great question. 
 
 172. Dean Holmes.] The Board School system is only introduced in 
 England where the voluntarj' system fails ; if the conditions of Cape Town 
 were transferred to England we should not put a Board school in such a 
 place? — The religious bodies here have provided suificient acconnnodation for 
 all the school -going children that exist. The two things that are wanting 
 are, a better style of education for the white children who fre(juent the 
 mission tchools. and the religious bodies cannot provide that j they have not
 
 21 
 
 the money. That is one thing, and then you must assist them to get the ^i' 
 coloured children into their schools regularly. k.c!m"6., m.a. 
 
 173. But then, how aboiit the question of accommodation ? — I employed ll^- 
 one of the Inspectors last year for a few weeks to measure the school accommo- Feb. 20th, i89i. 
 dation in Cape Town, and we are able to accommodate 7,000 children. 
 
 174. In these virtually denominational schools ? — Yes. 
 
 175. Dr. Berry.'] What is the number on the roll ? — The number on 
 the roll is G,COO. 
 
 176. President.'] What is the residuum that has to be educated or that 
 do not receive education ? — About 1,000. 
 
 177. Dean Holmes I] Practically the needs of the place are provided 
 for ?— Yes. 
 
 178. President.] Only they wouldbe better providedfor if youhad fourth- 
 class schools and received a little more aid ? — If the mission schools kept 
 to their own work, you would get the white population better educated. 
 The children of the better class of artizans go to these mission schools, and 
 they complain that their children are not getting anything like the education 
 they would get at home. 
 
 179. If these religious denominations are covering the ground through 
 the mission schools, it is their enthusiasm which causes it. If then you start 
 these fourth-class undenominational schools, and they become purely undenomi- 
 national, the interest of the denominations in these fourth -class undenomina- 
 tional schools will cease, will it not ? — So far as they are excluded from the 
 management, but that would be their own fault. It will leave them free to 
 attend to their own mission work proper. 
 
 180. But they have attended to educational Avork, and by doing the 
 educational work which the Government ought to do, they have relieved the 
 Government of a lot of expense. Is it not better for the Government to 
 grapple with the difficulty and to say, "it is our duty to see that every child 
 receives education, and provide schools for them ; make them pay if they can, 
 if not, force them into a school and find them education ? " — That is all pro- 
 vided for. All we want is to improve the education, and we cannot improve 
 the education of these white children unless we form a separate set of 
 schools. 
 
 181. Dean Holmes.] How could you raise the standard in the fourth- 
 class undenominational schools ? — By getting better teachers who will be 
 better paid, and by having a much larger staff. Where one teacher is 
 now employed for 100 children we shall have a teacher for 30 children. A 
 school with 200 or 300 children has now only a master or mistress and two 
 or three monitors. That is inefficient, and the children never get sufficient 
 knowledge of business qualifications. They should be able to read and write 
 well, and have a good knowledge of commercial arithmetic ; but they do 
 not get that. 
 
 182. Mr. Rotvan.] The tendency of the fourth-class schools will be just 
 this : we shall have all the religious enthusiasm ; the children of Eoman 
 Catholics will drift into a school started by Eoman Catholics, and the English 
 Church children the same ; they are not confined to a particular ward. You 
 find children from one extremity of Cape Town attending school at the other 
 extremity, and you find children at the doors of one mission scliool going 
 to some other mission school. When we start these fourth-class schools, 
 of course the Roman Catholic children will be sent to those schools supported 
 by Eoman Catholics, and the same with the Dutch and English Churches. 
 That is the difficulty I see? — I object to calling a school a mission school 
 when it is attended by children who do not belong to any Missionary Society 
 whatever ; they are not mission schools, and the term is offensive to the 
 white people. 
 
 183. President.] If the proposal came from the Societies themselves, 
 one could understand it, but it does not come from them ; it rather comes 
 
 d2.
 
 22 
 
 '..iA«m/m;. from the Department? — The white people who now send their children to 
 K t •!«.(}., MA. tlii'se Bfhciols am of a superior class. They are poor, and they complain that 
 LL^. jjjgy. jjfy compelled to send their children to these schools because there is 
 I ■■'.. ioui, 1591. nowhere else to send them, but the education is altogether below what they 
 M'ant. Another thing they say is, why should not they have a voice in the 
 management of the schools as well as otht^r white people. Take the case, 
 fur instauoi', of St. Paul's Schools at Port Elizabeth, attended almost entirely 
 by white children. They arc very well conducted schools, but they can 
 only get just as much as any other mis.sinn school. Now, the parents who 
 send their children there surely have a right to be consulted as to the 
 management. They are intelligent enough, but at present they have no voice. 
 Then take the case of the Bree street congregation. The Rev. Mr. Muller 
 said very seriously that something must be done, as his Dutch-speaking 
 white children were actually leaving his mission school because there were so 
 manv Malay children. He asked whether I could not give him two schools, 
 one for his white mission children and one for the coloured. I said no, there 
 is no such thing as " white mission " children. 
 
 184. Suppose you aid these church bodies in carrying on secular educa- 
 tion by giving them some support in educating the poorer white children, 
 would you not have all the enthusiasm of these bodies working in two different 
 schools, one for the white and one for the black ? — I should prefer putting the 
 schools under public management, leaving the religious bodies each to exer- 
 cise such legitimate influence as they can get. 
 
 185. But why do not you go furthor and have Public Boards created, 
 having the management of all the education of the poorer classes ? — Then, of 
 course, you must put an end to all mission schools. That is a big question. 
 In Cape Town there are 21 sets of school buildings already erected, and the 
 religious bodies would say, if you put these children under a School Board, 
 we are not going to let you have our buildings ; and new buildings must be 
 erected. 
 
 186. Dr. Berry~\ The Government could buy them, could it not? — I 
 hardly think the churches would be so weak-minded as to sell themselves to 
 the enemy. 
 
 187. President^ How many schools of the fourth class would Cape 
 Town require ? — Cape Town would require five fourth-class schools. 
 
 188. Would they be mixed schools for boys and girls? — Not if lean 
 help it. The difficulty with the present religious bodies is, that they have 
 not money enough to make the education as satisfactory as the children have 
 a right to expect, and on the other hand, they have not the power to secure 
 the regular attendance of the coloured. Referring to the Bree-street schools, 
 a large number of Malays and others pressed in there and drove the white 
 Dutch-speaking girls away. To that congregation I say, you have a missiim 
 school with 200 or 300 white children, and perhaps 100 low-type coloured 
 children. I want you to separate ; will you agree to put your present 
 institution under the direction of a committee appointed by this district, and 
 let them have the use of your buildings for your white children and others 
 who like to come. What will you do with the coloured children. The 
 probability is, they will form a supplementary school for the coloured children 
 and put them in a separate place. They would get all the advantages for 
 their white children by the additional grants and a higher rate of education, 
 and they would still retain the grant for their coloured people. I do not see 
 how in any way they would lose ground. 
 
 189. How would you have the committee to work this school created ? — 
 By calling a public meeting of the inhabitants of the district in which the 
 school is situated, the parents of these white children and others. 
 
 190. You would have to lay down a definite rule for the whole Colony, 
 to start with. Would you have an election such as takes place for members
 
 23 
 
 of Parliament ? — There is no rule laid down in regard to first-class schools, sir 
 
 Judge Watermeyor's rule was "never put into a law anything you can keep kc"?*'" '^m'a 
 
 out." i^L.D. 
 
 191. Dean Holmes. ~\ When you speak of calling a public meeting, is it F»b. joth. wn. 
 not the general experience that such meetings are attended by half a dozen 
 
 persons, and nobody else cares a bit about it, and hence you fail to make your 
 committee a representative one ? — It is the fault of the public if they do 
 not come. Those who do come will of course get the management of the 
 school. Whatever success we have had in the present public school system 
 has been owing to the elasticity of the rules. When they call a public meet- 
 ing and the question is raised as to who is to vote, I say, that is your own 
 business ; if you cannot define who the inhabitants are, it is not my business. 
 
 192. Ought not the law to define it ? — In England they pay rates; we 
 do not ; our system is all voluntary. 
 
 193. President.^ Do not you think that any deficiency should be payable 
 by some public body and not by the guarantors. It appears to me with regard 
 to the first-class undenominational schools in the country, that the men wlio 
 are being helped by the Government are men who want to help themselves, 
 and therefore they come forward and manifest an enthusiasm — clergymen and 
 others — while with regard to the poorer clases in towns, except it is the clergy, 
 there seem to be very few who really take an interest in them. The conse- 
 quence is, that the State, as a State, ought to step in and try to help them, and 
 do for them what they cannot do for themselves ? — This is not the principle of 
 the Government ; the principle of our Government is this, we have to educate 
 the white people, the people who come to settle in this Colony among heathen, 
 and we have to take care and see that they do not go downwards. The edu- 
 cation of the native is quite supplementary. 
 
 194. But still there is the poor white class; how are you going to 
 provide for them. The Government must go to the people and get some- 
 thing to aid them in doing this, or else get the people themselves to take an 
 interest in the matter— say through taxation ? — These fourth-class schools are 
 very necessary. The Government must step iu to prevent the white children 
 from going downwards. It is getting too serious. People who do not live in a 
 city like this have no idea what a pandemonium we are creating. 
 
 195. If that be so, it appears to me that the school work is not being 
 covered by the present existing bodies and educational agencies ? — Not 
 satisfactoril v covered ; hence the new proposals. 
 
 196. Then the question is, can we provide something ? The coloured 
 people, as a rulf», will keep to their own schools. It would be a pity not ro 
 legislate for the 10,000 white children just because a certain number of 
 coloured children might get in among them. No Committee of Management 
 can make a law excluding anybody ; but when there is a pressure every 
 now and then brought to bear upon the managers to admit a coloured child 
 I find that it is got up by some agent or quarrelsome person, on purpose to 
 injure the school. I simply instruct the managers not to admit the child, 
 but to inform the parents that there is an aided mission school for the child 
 to go to. 
 
 197. So that this aided mission school really supplies the place of the 
 fourth-class school ? — Yes ; for the coloured. 
 
 198. And you can force the child into that by acting upon the rule by 
 which the Government reserves the right of admitting pupils free under 
 certain circumstances ? — We simply say the Government aids this school 
 expressly for coloured children, and there is an objection to your being 
 admitted into the other school if it will ruin the school. 
 
 199. Then the fact is, in Cape Town you have a large number of 
 coloured people, and although you call the public national schools undenomi- 
 national, you are goinj^: to force these denominational schools to do the work
 
 24 
 
 Aom /) ^^ eilucatiiii? tlio poorer blacks. Government is therefore not nndortaking 
 KC.M.u., MA. its real work, which is to educate all round? — We never have acknowledged 
 
 '^^^ that yet. 
 Feb. ioth, 1891. 200. Dr. Berry. ~\ Is it not time to acknowledge it ? — I do not consider 
 
 it my business to force education on all the aborigines ; it would mean utter 
 ruiu to South Africa. If I could produce 0O,t)UU educated Terabus or 
 Fingoes to-morrow, what would you do with them ? Their education must 
 be gradual. 
 
 201. Rev. Moorrees.'] Would it not be possible for the Commission to 
 adopt a resolution recommending to Parliament that a committee should 
 have the right to exclude any child if they thought that by alloAving such 
 child into the school the school would be injured. The interests of 50 or GO 
 children in a school ought to be of more weight than the interests of one 
 child. Take the school at Kichmond, for example ; if we were to allow a 
 coloured child into that school, I do not think 20 children would be left in 
 the school ; we would have to close our doors ? — If after these many years 
 no serious case has ever occurred, why should you go into that question now ? 
 
 202. President.~\ I see that among the recommendations which you said 
 have not been carried out, was the sub-division of the duties of yourself in 
 the Education Department ? — An attempt was made by the appointment of 
 a general Inspector, who would look after the professional duties, leaving me 
 the general administration ; but it was found by experience that through the 
 friction caused by a subordinate head, and the consequent trouble and extra 
 work to the administrator in the department, the objects of the Government 
 would not be secured. 
 
 203. Could not the objects be seciu'ed by the appointment of a Board of 
 Education, over which von might preside ? — That has been considered, but 
 the great objection to it is the delay in disposing of questions by a Board. 
 It would give the head of the department a great deal more labour, and 
 require a much longer attendtmce, if he had a Board to work with. I can 
 dispose of 200 or oOO letters in a morning or two, but if I had to discuss 
 them with a Board, I should probably have to spend as many weeks over 
 them. That is the practical way of looking at it. 
 
 204. In England they have a Board, and the secretary does really all 
 the work ; but whenever there is anything of great importance, the secretary 
 callt< the Board together, and, acting through the Board, the secretary is able 
 then — if they agree with him — to come down with a weight and importance 
 upon any matter which Le would not have if he acted alone ? — The Com- 
 mittee of council of education practically never meets ; the secretary is the 
 exi'cutive officer of the vice-president, who is manager-general. He and the 
 vice-president agree upon things, and the Council is never consulted except on 
 matters of some broad principle. The vice-presidetrt does the whole of the 
 direction of the business, and the president reserves to himself all privileges 
 such as appointments of Inspectors. 
 
 205. Is it not just in regard to these important questions that it would be 
 a good thing if you had some body that you could call in to aid you to discuss 
 principles ; would it not enable you to proceed in educational matters with 
 the growth of ihe people ? — Many years ago I was rather in favour of a 
 Board, but my own impression is that it would only be a useful buffer 
 between myself and I'arliament, so that all objectionable things would be put 
 down to the Board. The best help that the Superintendent- General of Educa 
 tion can have is to call his Inspectors together and have a conference with 
 them. 
 
 206. If there were such a Board, how would you constitute it ? — I can- 
 not say, the religious difficulty would be so great. Every religious body 
 would want to be represented, and, as you see, you have no functions with 
 regard to religion. There is a want of a direct link between the Education 
 Department and Parliament. Questions are constantly asked in the House,
 
 26 
 
 and there is no one to answer them, and it very often happens that the Sir 
 
 unfortunate Superintendent-General of Education is put down as having done k^c"m.'g'., m'a. 
 things and asked for things, when he knows nothing about them at all, and ^^■"■ 
 there is no member of the Government who can give time to all the details. Feb. 20th, isoi. 
 I am told by members of Parliament that the very fact of thei-e being no link 
 helps the department, because being unable to get information they just pass 
 the Estimates without any enquiry ; but officially I feel that there is a gap, 
 I only speak to Parliament on paper. 
 
 207. 3f7-. Rovjan.'\ Would you propose to have a Minister of Education ? 
 — If you had an additional Minister, it would be for agriculture first ; agri- 
 culture can speak for itself. There might be a Minister for Education, and 
 other cognate departments. 
 
 208. Might not the portfolio of the Minister of Education include every- 
 thing of an educational character, such for instance as telegraphs, museums, 
 and libraries ? — It was mentioned years ago that all educational institutions 
 should be brought under the superintendance of one Minister. 
 
 209. Rev. Coetzee.'] Would such Minister stand or fall with the Cabinet ? 
 — Yes. He would be a member of the Government. You do not want such 
 a Minister to know much about Education professionally ; he has to be the 
 mouth-piece of the department. It is the same with the C'ommissioner of 
 Crown Lands and Public Works ; it does not follow that he knows any- 
 thing about making a bridge. It would be a good thing to have a Parlia- 
 mentary mouth-piece for the Education Department, so as to avoid these 
 periodical retrenchments which in the eyes of the peoj^le in the couutry make 
 me seem to break faith with them. All at once I find that the Government 
 is proposing to retrench in the matter of Education. ^Negotiations have been 
 going on between the committees and the department, for months and months 
 perhaps, and I am obliged to write and tell them that the Government wants 
 money, and I cannot fulfil my promises. It is a very serious question, not 
 so much for the loss of the money, but the loss of confidence on the part of 
 the people. A man writes and says, wc have a schoolroom, and you pro- 
 mised to put on the Estimates half the cost. I did promise it six months 
 ago ; but the Government says, we cannot give you any money for school 
 buildings this year. 
 
 210. Rev. Moorrces.~\ Could not we recommend that this law, which 
 seems to be a permissive law, should be made compulsory, and that if build- 
 ings are erected and approved of by the Government, the Ministry must be 
 compelled to help in the cost ? — You must put it the other way. The Parlia- 
 ment has already sanctioned certain regulations for building grants, and 
 the Government steps in and stops the work. A rule laid down by Parlia- 
 ment is suspended without reference to Parliament. 
 
 211. Pi-esident.'] You speak of an inadequate staff of inspectors, and you 
 say they are very important in dealing with educational matters ? — The whole 
 system turns upon the inspection. It is the only guarantee I have for an 
 adequate return for public money. At present there are 200 schools in a 
 year not inspected. 
 
 212. Why not? — Because there is nobody to do it. 
 
 213. How many Inspectors have j'oii ? — Eight. We want one more. I 
 am obliged to utilize Canon Woodrooffe. He is away from the native ter- 
 ritories for half the year to help in the white schools, as they are more im- 
 portant. 
 
 214. You mentioned in 1879 that you wanted an organizing Inspector ? 
 — I have had one, but do not want him again. That work is done. It was 
 to go round among the people and put them in the way of establishing 
 schools. But we certainly want one additional Inspector. 
 
 215. Dr. Berry.'] What do you think about each Inspector having an 
 assistant Inspector to do the inspecting of smaller schools, farm schools, and
 
 26 
 
 Unfium oai, circuit Hchools, and that sort of thing. It seems a waste of energy and ability 
 K.c.M.Q., M.A. to put the Inspector to do that work ? — i do not care for assistants. 
 
 •" • 216. The iiilluencc exerted through the Inspector being a man of 
 
 Veh. joth, 1891 position and getting into communication with the clergy, and so on, is worth 
 the money, is it not? — I would not have a more assistant. 
 
 217. You prefer more Inspectors of the same class you have now 
 to having assistant Inspectors? — Yes. Our Inspectors are not paid the high 
 salaries they receive in England ; £450 to £500 a year is the outside. A 
 first-class English Inspector gets as much as £900 a year. 
 
 218. Does not the department sometimes now send out school teachers to 
 inspect farm schools ? — If there is no one on the staff to send, I get the head 
 master of a public school to go and inspect the small private farm schools 
 that were originated under the new rules. 
 
 219. Could not assistant Inspectors take that work better? — I do not 
 think so. There is no objection to the present system of taking away a 
 teacher on a Saturday to visit farm schools. The public schools are not kept 
 on Saturday. Moreover, it does not do to send one public schoolmaster to 
 look after another, 
 
 220. Then would it not be better to substitute assistant Inspectors to 
 inspect these farm schools, instead of sending school teachers from town ? — 
 I do not send any school teachers to private farm schools, but only tlie head- 
 master of the nearest public school. 
 
 221. Is not that objectionable from your own point of view ? — I do not 
 object to sending thera to visit these private farm schools under governesses, 
 but I have an objection to sending them to inspect a brother schoolmaster's 
 work in the next village. 
 
 222. Dean Holmes.] In England you are aware every Inspector has one 
 or more assistants who nave been schoolmasters ? — Yes, I notice they work 
 that system. 
 
 223. They go with him, or do the work when he is unable to do it, and 
 having been teachers, they have a practical knowledge, and it is found very 
 satisfactory ? — They tell me it is very nice for the Inspectors who do not do 
 much themselves, but let the assistants do all the work. The duties of an 
 Inspector here are not nearly so serious as they are at home. The whole 
 income of the school, aw far as the Government grant goes, depends upon the 
 Inspector's report in England, in fact you may say that the unfortunate 
 schoolmaster is entirely at the mercy of the Inspectors on the day of inspec- 
 tion. Here the grants are fixed, and all that we want is the Inspector's 
 certificate that there is a satisfactory return for the money. Of course he 
 gives the details also, but I should not like a system of assistants at present. 
 I have thought of using it in the Transkei for the native schools, putting 
 assistants under Canon Woodrooffe, but the difficulty that meets us is to get 
 suitable men. 
 
 224. President.'] You also said that among your recommendations was 
 one providing for a capitation allowance to day schools for poor farm boys. 
 What is that ? — It means this : a farmer who gets up a school with his 
 brother farmers may have among them say 10 to 12 children, and they get a 
 teacher and a fixed grant of £.30. There may be many poor white people 
 living in the neighbourheod, and they cannot afford to pay, and the farmers 
 are not particularly anxious to swell the number of the school, because they 
 have to pay the teacher more, but they would be quite willing to take in a 
 certain number of these poor children say up to 20, within the teacher's 
 ability, provided the Government would make a small allowance to the 
 teacher, say £1 for each poor child. It was proposed to me some years ago 
 by one of the ministers of the Dutch Church, and during the last Synod we 
 discussed it again ; and it is thought we may get some 400 or oOD children
 
 27 
 
 to school in that way, by allowing a capitation fee of ,£1 for everv child who ^'" 
 
 is brought in addition to the number required by Goverinneut. " Of course Kr'li'.a'. m. a 
 the teacher would get the benefit of that. lihi) 
 
 Tl"). Dr. lirrri/.'] I understand that that point is to come up in your r<-\,. m^, isai. 
 report for this year ?— Yes, I have reported on it to Parliament. My report 
 is now in the printers' hands. 
 
 226. President.'] Is the attendance in the town schools regular ? — Not 
 so regular as in the country. The attendance in the large missionary schools 
 in town is the most irregular. 
 
 227. What is the average attendance in towns?— In Cape Town the 
 average runs down as low as 50 to GO per cent. 
 
 228. What are the chief causes of this irregularity ? — Many of the 
 children are employed by their parents to go on errands, or to fetch wood, 
 tish, &c. Then, some sell newspapers, and others play truant. 
 
 229. What remedy would you suggest for that ? — I proposed last year 
 to the Government to have a Truancy Act, so that a school attendance ofiBcer 
 would be employed by the department in such a place as Cape Town, and all 
 children of a school-going age from 7 to 13 say, black and white, found in 
 the streets, should be dealt with by the school attendance officer. If after 
 remonstrance with the parents, and due notice given, the children are still 
 found not to be attending school, but loitering in the streets, there should be 
 power to bring the parents before the magistrate and have a small fine 
 imposed upon them. 
 
 230. Then you would sweep every one into school by that means ? — 
 They would either have to stay at home in doors, or go to school. 
 
 231. Then you would really have compulsory education? — No; we 
 should simply sweep the streets. 
 
 232. Still, if you sweep the streets of all the children and send them to 
 school, you force them. Is not that compulsory education? — It is pretty nearly. 
 
 233. Dean Holmes^ Why did you say that you cannot prevent truancy 
 by compulsion ? — If you make a law such as exists in some countries, to the 
 effect that all children must attend school a certain number of days in the 
 year or they will be punished, that would not help us ; we get the attend- 
 ances already, in fact, we get more attendances, even with the irregularity 
 than are required by law in Australia. I think there it is about 120 attend- 
 ances in the year. 
 
 234. That is ridiculously low, is it not ? — Yes. If you say that they 
 must attend 125 days in the year, they will do so, but you will not get any 
 more attendances. 
 
 235. President.] But you gain a great deal if you even get them to do 
 that, because if a boy says, here is my ticket to show my attendance .so many 
 days, he has been a very good boy ? — What we want is 200 double attend- 
 ances. I should not be satisfied with 125 days. 
 
 23G. I notice in the report from England it says that where children 
 above ten years of age have passed a certain standard, they shall be exempt 
 in future ; they can claim exemption, and need not come to school again ? — 
 All I propose is, that the parents or guardians of children of school -going 
 age in any proclaimed town or village may be summoned by the school 
 attendance officer to appear before the Resident Magistrate to give an 
 account of the cause of the children's absence. 
 
 237. Would not you add to that, provided that if the child can prove 
 that it has passed a certain standard it shall bo exempt ? — That is profided 
 for in another clause. Clause VIIT provides : — '' No parent or guardian sliall 
 incur any penalty in respect to any child of school-going age, who shall have 
 reached a satisfactory standard of attainments in elementary subjects of 
 instruction, to wit, reading, writing, and aritiimetic, and sliall hold a certi- 
 ficate to that effect from the department of Public Education." 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] E
 
 28 
 
 L» )^ i>»u -^^- Havo yiHi ini'imn'tl a Bill on the subject? — Yes. This is a copy 
 
 K.c.Mu., M.A. of the proposi'd Bill. It was afjreeil to by the late Government, but during; 
 
 ^.^i^' the interre{,'inini it tell tlirough. It eould only be proclaimed in a town alter 
 
 Feb. 2otb, isyi. the Education Department had satisfied the Governmeut that then' was 
 
 adequate aecomniodation : — 
 
 PROPOSED BILL 
 
 TO 
 
 Enforce the Begnlar Attendance of Children at Schools in certain Towns 
 
 and Villages. 
 
 Be it enacted by the Governor of the Capo of Grooii Hope, by and with the 
 a«ivice and consent of the Legislative Council and House of Assembly thereof, as 
 follows : — 
 
 L This Act shall be put in force in any town or village of the colony by 
 l)roelamation of the Governor. 
 
 2. So soon as the Act has been put in force in any town or village the Governor 
 
 shall appoint one or more school-attendance otHccni, who sliall be under the 
 direction and control of the Superintendent-General of Education. 
 
 3. The parents or guardians of such children of scliool-going age as ai-e found 
 
 playing or loitering in the streets or in any public place in any proclauned 
 town or village during the ordinary school hour.'i, may Vje summoned by the 
 school-attendance officer to appear before the nearest Resident Magistrate 
 to give account of the cause of the children's absence from school ; and in 
 case of default, either of attendance of the paients or guardians or of any 
 satisfactory eause being sliown for the children's absence from school,^ the 
 magistrate .shall inflict a fine not exceeding 10s. for each such offence, or 
 one week's imprisonment. 
 
 4. It shall also be the duty of the school-attendance officers to encpiire into all 
 
 cases where there is reason to believe that children of school-going age do 
 not attend any school ; and to warn parents or guardians to see that the 
 children are regularly sent to school ; and if, after warning, the parents or 
 guardians neglec'. to send their children to school, then such parents oi 
 guardians may be summontd to appear before the neiu-cst Resident Magis- 
 trate, and unless satisfactory cause is shown for the absence of the children 
 from school, the magistrate shall inflict a fine not exceeding 10s. for each 
 offence, or one week's iinprisonmcut. 
 o. All fines thus inflicted shall be ])aid in to the Colonial Treasury. 
 
 6. For the purposes of thi.s Act, the school-going ago siiall be reckoned from 
 
 seven to thirteen year.-*, and the ordinary school hours from 9 to VI a.m. 
 and from 1 to '■\ j).ni., juiblic holidays, Saturdays, and the school vacations 
 notified by the Governor excepted. 
 
 7. The periods of vacation in undenominational public scliools, c'lasses 1, 11 and 
 
 III, boarding scho()ls, farm and circuit schools, and in trainiag and indus- 
 trial institutions, shall not extend beyond five weeks in the summer, three 
 weeks in the winter, ten days at Easter, and ten days at Michaelmas." The 
 periods of vacation in undenominational public .schools, class IV, and in 
 ordinary mission and aborigines' da}' schools sliall not extwid beyond three 
 weeks in the summer, two weeks in the winter, ten days at Easter, and ten 
 days at Michaelmas. The dates on which vacations begin and end shall 
 be publicl}- notified from time to time by tlic (lovcnior. 
 
 8. No parent or guardian sliall incur any penalty in respect to any child of 
 
 school-going age who shall have reached a satisfactory standard of attain- 
 ments in elementary subjects of instruction, to wit, reading, wi-iting, and 
 arithmetic, and shall hold a certificate to that effect from the Department 
 of I'ublic Education. 
 
 9. The expenses of maintaining the school-attendance officers required under 
 
 this Act shall be a charge on the Department of Public Education. 
 
 10. This Act may be cited as the " School Attendance Act, 1891." 
 
 2B9. Mr RotcanP\ "Who do you propose should appoint the Truancy 
 Officer ? — The (iovernment. I wanted the municipality to do it, but we 
 found it was thought that that would not do. 
 
 240. r resilient. ~\ If you had a Council to aid you iu such matters as that 
 proposed Bill, would it not prove an advantage? — A Council would lead to 
 more hindrances. "We find a.^ a rule, that if you go straight aliead, hindrances
 
 T. P. Theron, Esq., M.L.A. 
 Dean Holmes. 
 Rev. Coetzee. 
 
 29 
 
 fall through. The only point on which h Council would bo very useful wouhl S'"" 
 
 lie when you ;in' debating questions that relate to religious bodies. My k.c"m"g., m.a. 
 
 difficulty is always to hold the balance. ll.d. 
 
 Feb. 20th, 1891. 
 
 Saturday, Februunj 21, 1891. 
 PEESEXT : 
 
 Sir J. D. Bakry (President), 
 
 Kev. Moorrees. 
 Dr. Berry. 
 
 A. N. Rowan, Esq. Sir 
 
 Hir Langham Dale further examined. k^cM-'g. 'm!a, 
 
 1\\. P resilient.'] With regard to what you said yesterday as to a ^i!l?" 
 truancy officer; you think there should be such an appointment? — Yes. Feb. ,ji8t, i89i. 
 As soon as it can be officially notitied to the Government that there is ample 
 school accommodation for all children of a school-going age. 
 
 242. Is there such accommodation now ? — The enquiry has not been 
 made except in regard to Cape ToAvn. It is considered that 7,000 children 
 tan be accommodated in the schools of Cape Town by a rearrangement of the 
 internal accommodation. It happens now that many of the juvenile schools 
 are very poorly attended and many of the infant schools are overcrowded, 
 and it will require a rearrangement of those departments. 
 
 243. What additional facilities do you think can be provided to meet 
 the wants of persons employed on the lines of rail way.— None, I think. 
 
 244. What are the present facilities? — At every railway station, or at 
 every point on the railway where ten children can be got together, the 
 Department pays half the salary of the teacher, £30, on condition that the 
 local people pay £30 or an equivalent, that is, £10 in cash and £20 for the 
 free board and lodging of the teacher, the Eailway Department engaging to 
 provide all the accommodation required for the school and the teacher, as 
 A\ell as the furniture ; and no other provision can ever be so liberal. 
 
 245. You think that that works well ? — It is beginning to work well. 
 1 1 is about twelve months now since this railway station school system has 
 I eeu ititroduced bj' an arrangement with the railway authorities. Circulars 
 have been sent to every stationmaster and everyone interested, but it takes a 
 h'Hg time before action is taken. 
 
 24G. Who takes up the work : is it the church bodies ? — Xo, the people 
 themselves. 
 
 247. Mr. Rotvan.'] Are free passes provided ? — The children are, I believe, 
 brought up by trollies, or in some other way. 
 
 248. I have been often asked whether free passes are given to children 
 AS'ho live at a distance from any particular centre ? — It is all arranged through 
 the District Traffic Manager or the Engineer. 'I he plan has been taken up very 
 freely. To say that it has led to many extra schools being opened would not 
 be true, because the changes in the railway staff are so frequent. Very 
 often when we have an'anged for opening a school, the man who has the 
 most children is removed to another station, and the whole matter falls through. 
 
 249. Mr. Theron. j Can the children travel free by rail, say from the 
 platelayers' cottages to where the school is situated? — Yes. Quite free. 
 You will see the children either walking, or taking advantage of the trollies 
 or ballast trains. Every facility is afforded, but the great hindrance is the 
 constant change of the staff. A platelayer with four or 'five children is moved 
 off to another place. We have something like 30 schools offering direct 
 advantages to the children of railway servants, and of course there are many 
 others not far from the stations. 
 
 *
 
 30 
 
 Lin >,am ii.i'r ''^^^^ "^'*^ ^'^''-''^ suppui ted ill ihf saiTic wiiv ':' — Some of thorn aro boardinjj 
 
 K c M G., MA. t;chools. iiuJ then the niihvay eliildreii merely attend as day scholars, paying 
 ^^' the fees. I have liere a list of the schools where the children can attend : — 
 :i»t, 1891. Middelton. Kliplieiivel. Kersto River. 
 
 Cookhouse. Fort Jackson. , Ilellville. 
 
 Sandtlats. Norval's Pont. . !Maitland. 
 
 Aliecdale. >'aau\vpoort. Salt River Junction. 
 
 East London. i)c Aar. Woodstock, 
 
 Glenconnor. Tafelberg. Somerset West. 
 
 Commadagga. Laiiigsl)urg. (roudini. 
 
 Klupmuts. Touws River. j Klipplaat. 
 
 Hclderberg. t'eros Road. I Hebron. 
 
 Sir Lowry's Pass. Picjiietberg Road. j Warrenton. 
 
 Lynedoch. I 
 
 anil others close to each station on the Simon's Town line. A great many 
 enijuiries have been made, and negotiations are being carried on with the 
 railway authorities. A few private farm schools are on or near sidings on the 
 railway. 
 
 liol. Do I understand you to say tl at whenever ten children can be 
 collected at a certain point on the railway, then you contribute £30 ^ — Yes. 
 2") J. And it is expected by you that the local people should contribute 
 £10 in cash and free board and lodging for the teacher? — Yes. 
 
 253. Dean llnlmcs.'] Do you require a committee of managers to be 
 formed ? — There must be a local committee formed, Avith the concurrence of 
 the General Manager of Railways. As 1 do not know the people, I am 
 guided by his selection of tlie managei-s. We generally get three men. 
 
 254. Mr. Thcron.'] In every case where representation has been made to 
 you, you are always willing to open schools in such centres ? — Yes. Up to 
 this time. 
 
 255. Dr. Berry.'] What class of schools would they be ? — Third class 
 schools. Sometimes they would be on a farm, the only arrangement being 
 that the Government gets an equivalent for its £30, partly in cash and partly 
 in free board and lodging. 
 
 250. lias there been any difficulty in getting teachers for these schools? 
 — They have not represented to me any difficulty. I think the delay in some 
 cases is owin^ to the difficulty in getting good teachers. 
 
 257. Dean Holmes.] Has there not also been a difficulty in providing 
 accommodation for the teachers y — Y'es. The railway people have not always 
 been quite prompt, but it is not always th. t the statinnmaster has got a spare 
 room. If there is no spare room iu the house, then comes the question, will 
 you build ? You cannot expect a young woman to live in a separate building 
 on a railway station. 
 
 258. /'';•. Berry.] Could not the system of circuit school teachers be 
 worked into the Railway Department ? — I should prefer the other plan, 
 because the circuit s(;hool teachers are entirely under myself, but iu this case 
 1 have railway people to look after tlie schools. In the circuit schools there 
 are no committees, and there is no guai-antee. I do not look on railway 
 iwrvants as poor people, and the circuit schools are intended only for the j)oor 
 L.eglected farmers' children in out of the way places of the colony. Railway 
 servants aro well paid and get regular employment, and I cannot call them 
 poor. 
 
 259. President.] Is there a teacher stationary at each place y — Yes, 
 every possible facility is offered. 
 
 260. Denn Holmes.] Does the Department provide all books and station- 
 ery y — I give them a free (mtfit, and after that, they get things at half price. 
 It is almost giving them their bread and butter. 
 
 261. Dr. Berry. "^ Could not the capitation grant system be extended to 
 these people ? — No ; They do not want it. These railway servants are
 
 31 
 
 fairly well off, and I -woukl not pauperize thcin. The tendency in this colony Sir 
 
 unfortunately is to do too much for pcojile, whereby you destroy self-confi- kx'Im'g'.. m'a. 
 ('enoe and self-respect. If you adopted the capitation system, moreover, they LL.D. 
 would not get so much money, because if they had an uncertificated teacher Feb. iuT issi- 
 at a station and there were ten children, the grant would be £10, and if the 
 ohildren passed well they might give £5 more — that is £15 — now they get 
 a fixed allowance of £3<). 
 
 202. Where there are ten children ? — Yes. 
 
 263. Suppose at some platelayer's place there were only five children to 
 be had ? — Then we simply do not deal with that case. If it is a farm, thev can 
 establish a private farm school. I have a case now where a school is kept on 
 a farm contiguous to the railway station. The farmer sends his children 
 and the railway people send six. 
 
 264. Would the capitation grant be available for six children ? — Yes. 
 I settled such a case yesterday. We accepted it as horn fide. 
 
 265. President.'] Then the capitation principle comes into play there ? 
 Yes, that is not a school connected with the Railway Department. It is got 
 up by the farmer, and ho allows the railway servants to send their children. 
 
 266. Dedn Holmes.'] Are those schools all inspected annually by the 
 Inspectors ? — Xow and then one slips out when an Inspector dies, as in the 
 case of Mr. Samuel, and I cannot get his place filled at a moment's notice. 
 
 267. President.] But they are meant to be inspected, are they not ? — 
 Every one of the schools I have mentioned was examined last year. The 
 railway schools often get visited more than once a year. 
 
 268. Have you considered what steps should be taken to make the 
 Beards of Management a success ? — I cannot see any way at all. 
 
 269. Or to provide for the tenure of public school property ? — I should 
 prefer some system of trusts. I should require seme arrangement to be 
 made in each case, that the property should be held in trust by some religious 
 body or Educational Society, or by the Civil ComTiiissioner. 
 
 270. As to School Boards, is it not possible in any way to have some- 
 thing analagous to the English sy stem ? — Of course the School Board cannot 
 die. The Act provides for the continued succession. All the members go 
 out of office periodically. 
 
 271. And the Act also provides for the tenure of public school property, 
 does it not V — Yes. 
 
 272. Could not we apply that machinery to ourselves? — If you had 
 School Boards, but you have not got them. 
 
 273. Could not we provide School Boards here? — I do not see what 
 you want them for. The objects of School Boards is, where the people are 
 not willing to pr-ovide themselves with schools, you provide the machinery 
 which compels them to have schools, but the people here are willing to have 
 schools ; the danger is wc may have too many if the Government will provide 
 the money. The only hindrance to the growth of schools is, that the 
 Superintendent-General of Education has to refuse grants sometimes. 
 
 274. I understand that in Cape Town there are about i,000 children 
 unprovided for, and those are of the poorest class? — Yes, they do not attend. 
 
 275. There is plenty of room for them in the schools, if you can get 
 them there ? — Yes. 
 
 276. We want to put them to school and make provision for them, 
 and the present schools do not take them ? — They take them if they go, but 
 Cape Town offers so much temptation to these little boys of 1 or 1 1 years to 
 run about the streets. 
 
 277. If you had a tit.ancy officer, and he took tliem to a mission 
 school, would the mission school necessarily take them without being paid 
 anything ? — I do not contemplate that thoy would refuse. Two-thirds of the 
 children in some mission schools are taken in free, such as Archdeacon 
 Lightfoot's. In other mission schools there is a small fee of 2d. or 3d.
 
 32 
 
 ^Sir ^^^^ n wi'ck. The only thing that I cau understand is the ojjposition of a mission 
 K.c.m!g., ma. hody to take in some very ragged and dirty looking waifs and strays that 
 
 ^^^ - might be brought by the attendance officer, 
 lob. 2ut, \»'.n. 278. ]5ut you say wo must providi> some place for them. Whore is 
 
 that place under the existing machinery '/—I assume that they would be 
 taken to the nearest mission school. If they will not receive them, then the 
 (jiicstion will come, what is to be done. 
 
 27'J. Ought not we to provide at once for their admission? — I never 
 anticipate evils in my department. I think it is ([uitc possible that a raggtsd 
 school may have to be oiganized to take in these roughs. I do not think 
 there Mould be any difficulty in getting a missionary body to do that. 
 Kather than have the parents of the children offended by the admission of 
 street boys, some of the better class mission schools would probably open 
 such a branch. 
 
 280. These ragged schools would be free, I suppose ? — Yes. 
 
 281. I see that in l^ngland, under the School ]Joard system, they have 
 power to create free schools. I think in Birmingham there is one. There 
 is no free school in that sense here, is there? — I think you might say that in 
 the large mission schools, attended by coloured people, the education is 
 practically gratuitous. 
 
 2S2. "NVliat facilities are afforded for giving instruction in the English 
 and Dutch languages ? — In districts where the Dutch-speaking population 
 predominates, it is usual for the principal or one of the assistants to give 
 instruction in the Dutch language, and the plan of work in such a school is 
 usually this: — The religious exercises, including de^'otions and reading of the 
 Bible, are altogether conducted in the Dutch language by one of the teachers. 
 After that, the secular teaching of arithmetic, geography, and such subjects 
 follows, and then there are the reading classes : that is, reading English one 
 day and translating into Dutch, and then reading Dutch alternately and 
 translating into English. Mr. Rowan, the senior inspector of schools, has 
 sent in a report about his district, that in almost every undenominational 
 school — that is, in Stellenbosch, Paarl, Piquctberg, Malraesbury, and 
 Worcester, and all through the Breede Eiver Valley, &c., the English and 
 Dutch languages are practically tanght side by side throughout ; and it is 
 ascertained by calculating the returns furnished by the teachers, that last 
 year there were between 2(J,()00 and ;-)0,U()(l children learning Dutch and 
 English together in the whole of the Colony. 
 
 283. Is Dutch learned in the Eastern Districts much ? — No ; it is 
 scarcely worth mentioning. Thex'e is one Dutch teacher in Graham's Town, 
 and one in King William's Town. There will also be one at Port Elizabeth. 
 Taking the schools throughout the Colony, the actual number is between 
 20,0UU and 30,000, A good many schools have not furnished a return, but 
 the calculation has got as far as 22,000. 
 
 284 . 3Ii-. Thcron.'] Does that include mission schools ? — Yes ; white 
 children in the mission schools learning Dutch. 
 
 285. President^ Could j'ou sei)arate them and give us the respective 
 numbers iu undenominational and mission schools? — The niunber of children 
 learning Dutch in what would be called undenominational .schools proper, as 
 apart from mission schools, would be about 12,000 or 13,000, as far as we 
 have retuins. 
 
 286. You say that every facility is always afforded for learning both 
 languages ? — Yes ; so far as to give aid to special teachers of Dutch in cases 
 where th ; principal or the assistant nuiy be unable to teach the language. 
 
 287 Dean Holmes.'] Tlie figures you have given, do they show the 
 number m-tually learning Dutch ? — The number I have given is the number 
 actually I »arning. The teacher has to certify how many are actually 
 learning.
 
 33 
 
 2SS. President.^ Ilave you any fuvtlipr sugfijostions to make on this J^" 
 subjoet ? — ■'No. We have done all we can, and that has boen the system k.c.m.g., m.a. 
 now for thirty years. ^1?' 
 
 289. Have you seen the resolutions of tlie Dutch Reformed Church ivh. :;ut, isyi. 
 Synod, held in November last year ? — I have tlie whole of the resolutions, 
 both of the Taal Congress and of the Iloofdbestuur, that is the working 
 committee. The first resolution passed at the Taal Congress held at Cape 
 Town on the olst October and the 1st November, 1800, is as follows: ''This 
 Congress is of opinion that the time has arrived, especially with a view to 
 those who prepare for the Civil Service examination, that the Dutch language 
 should be added as a compulsory subject to the elementary school examina- 
 tion ; but if, owing to the present arrangement of our schools, insurmountable 
 difficulties should present themselves, the marks shall be dealt with as those 
 given for Greek at the matriculation examination : that is to say. that 
 although Dutch at the said examination be not made compulsory, the candi- 
 date who shall not submit to an examination iu Dutch exposes himself to 
 the risk of seeing his name so much the lower on the list of passed candi- 
 dates." My answer to that is, that it is a question for the Univei-sity. The 
 next point is, " The examination in Dutch shall include an easy dictation, a 
 simple piece for translation from Dutch into Euglish, and vice versa, some 
 questions on ordinary declensions and conjugations." That is also a question 
 for the University. The next point is entirely for the University. " This 
 Congress is of opinion that in order to arouse more patriotism in the rising 
 generation iu all schools, the history and geography of South Africa, as well 
 as general geography, shall be taught either iu Dutch or in English, and 
 that the University Council be requested to examine in these subjects in 
 both languages." That, I say, rests with the University Council, and they 
 have not yet consiiered it. Then comes the following: •' This Congress is 
 of opinion that in the matriculation examination, Dutch should not be placed 
 on the same footing with foreign languages, but that it should receive an 
 equal number of marks with the principal subjects : Provided, however, that 
 the examination iu Dutch shall be somewhat more thorough than it has 
 hitiierto been." That also is for the University. The next resolution, which 
 concerns the Education Department, is as follows : " This Congress is of 
 opinion that in all the lower schools elementary instruction should be given 
 in and by means of the language of the majority of the local population to 
 which instruction in the second language may soon be added. When it is 
 deemed advisable in farmers' schools to give instruction only in and by 
 means of Dutch, these schools should have the same claim to Government 
 aid as the scliools in which Euglish is exclusively taught." Of the matters 
 which concern tlie Education Department, the above resolution CNo. 4) is 
 best answered by the practice of the Education Department, which is to 
 extend Government aid to ele;nentary schools, whether conducted in English 
 or Dutch, or in both languages, the only conditions being the competency 
 and fitness of the teacher, antl a reasoiuible diiily atteudauce of scholars. 
 That resolution, therefore, is practically met ; a school conducted in Dutch 
 and a school conducted in English have equal riglits, and claim aiil. The 
 Inspector makes no difference, lie simply examines the school as it is. 
 Then the fifth resolution is : " This Congress is of opinion that the teaching 
 in this Colony of the history of the country and the jjcople, as also of 
 humanity in general, is inadequate, and instructs the Iloofdbt^stuur to devise 
 a plan to do away with this fault as soon as possible, and lay such before the 
 Department of Education and the University Council.'" That is a gigantic 
 work to do away with the defects in teaeliing history. I cannot deal with 
 that. The sixth resolution is • "This Congress is of opinion that in all the 
 examinations, the papers on Dutch should be written and answered in that 
 language." The reply to that is, that questions on the Dutch language may 
 be written in Dutch, and answers may be given in the same language, unless
 
 34 
 
 S'"" it is found by cxpfnonoc that such a rhaugo discourages candidates from 
 
 k.c'!m.'o.. m.a. prcseutiug themselves for cxaininatiou in that language. I have no doubt 
 
 ^^■^ it .vill frighten tlu:n, the examination will be so niueli more dittieult. 
 Ki.b. 2irt, 1891, 200. /iVr. Corf^ei-.] You do not mean for Dutch children, do you? — 
 
 The Dutch ciiiidren prefer to have the ijuestions put in English ; and wo 
 find by experience that in examinations in Dutch for teachers, if the <iues- 
 tions are put entirely in Dutr-h, the papers will be increased in difficulty. 
 
 291. Jfr. Theron.'] Does not that arise because the child has had an English 
 training?— Of course; but I do not consider that you want to discourage 
 English training, you only want to encourage Dutch training. You cannot 
 stop the flood. All I say is, T am willing to accept it and give it a trial, 
 but most likely I shall fiud candidates for the teachers' examination object. 
 Mr. T\<)wan has taken the Dutch papers sometimes, and he will be able to 
 judge the general opinion. If we put the whole of the questions in Dutch, 
 and ])erhaps High Dutch, the children wfiuld simply say, we do not know 
 what this means. 
 
 202. Rev. Moon-res.'] Do you mean in every subject? — No; the Dutch 
 language paper ; but we are willing to accept a trial of it. 
 
 293. Prenident.'] Where Dutch-speaking children are only for a short 
 time at school, are they taught and examined in Dutch ? — Yes, entirely. 
 
 294. Is English excluded altogether? — No committee has a right to 
 exclude English ; it is simply stated that the school for (convenience is con- 
 ducted in the Dutch language exclusively until such time as the children are 
 advanced enough to profit by English. ' We find that generally if a school 
 continues after a year or so, there is a disposition to introduce English. 
 
 2'.»;3. There is a desire on the part of the children and parents that 
 English should come in ? — Yes. 
 
 290. Rev. Moorrecs.] Is it your experience that where Dutch teaching 
 is encouraged it helps on the teaching of English afterwards ? — Most 
 certainly ; that is practically the reason why I encourage Dutch. We have 
 not any sentiment about it ; it is purely a business question. 
 
 297. I put that question because it is thought sometimes that by 
 <mcouraging Dutch we mean to work against English ? — That would not be 
 the result. Our experience for years has been this, that the more you 
 (mcourage the study of their own language, the better is the instruction in 
 English and the more permanent is the knowledge of English. It was found 
 years ago, that children coming to a school and learning book English and 
 then going home and talking Dutch, really did not profit much ; they had 
 no real language, even of the vernacular, which they never studied, they only 
 spoke it. Then at the meeting of the Hoofdbestuur on the Sth of Novem- 
 ber last, there were further resolutions passed. They wished that in the 
 Education Manual, page 40. paragraph 5, where the qualificatitms of Hrcuit 
 school teachors are specified, the words '' English or Dutch, or both," should 
 be substituted for English and Dutch. The paragraph in the Educaticm 
 Manual reads as follows : — " Teachers will not be approved unless they satisfy 
 the Suporintendent-t-Jeneral of Education of their qualification to teach the 
 English and Dutch languages, writing, and arithmetic." I pointed out that 
 there is no objection to that. Practically we have to act npon it ; I cannot 
 always get men qualified to give instruction in both languages. 
 
 298. 'J'here are sometimes teachers who are only (lualified to teach in 
 Dutch ? — Yes. The answer I sent to the resolution of the Hoofdbestuur, 
 on the 8th of November, was this, that there is no objection to give effect to 
 it as early as practicable, to accept qualifications of itinerating teachers in 
 English or Dutch, or both. 
 
 299. Mr. Theron. \ Then further, in thf Standards for classifying 
 children, the Hoofdbestuur recommended that English and Dutch should be 
 put on an equality, and that where an Inspector is required to test the 
 children in " English composition," there should be inserted '* in English
 
 35 
 
 composition or Dutch composition, or both," so as to assimilate the requirements ^''" 
 
 of Standards V. and VI. as regards the Dutch language ? — There is no objcc- k^c.'m.o'., m.a. 
 tion to that. Then the next resolution is, that Inspectors of Schools should ^^P - 
 be able to examine in both languages. The answer to that is, there are eight Feb. zist, i89i. 
 Inspectors, and four of the staff are thoroughly qualified in Dutch, and two 
 others are fairly qualified, they have an ordinary practical knowledge of the 
 language. That makes six, and the other two are engaged in Kaffir schools 
 over the border, and therefore they do not want Dutch, though I believe one 
 of them could examine in Dutch quite as well as the others. There are four 
 well-qualified Dutch scholars among the Inspectors, and three more have a 
 fair practical acquaintance with the language ; hence that objection has no 
 foundation. The next resolution of the Hoofdbestuur has reference to the 
 offering of bursaries by the University. I stated at the end of my letter to the 
 President of the Taal Congress, " that the other matters referred to in the various 
 resolutions will fully occupy the attention of the University Council." I will 
 hand in the whole of the correspondence. The resolutions adopted by the Dutch 
 Keformed Church Synod in November, 1890, are in two parts ; the latter 
 part was only sent up a week ago, but all the resolutions were communicated 
 to me at the time, as I was constantly present at the Synod, and I was made 
 acquainted with them. I produce these, and the answers that have been 
 sent. The first resolution is, "That it is a sound educational principle that 
 young children should receive instruction through the medium of iheir mother 
 tongue, and one that is recognized in other bi-lingual countries." My answer 
 to that is, that as regards the language in which the younger children should 
 receive instruction, the Education Department does not interfere ; the matter 
 rests with the managers and the people, whose interests they represent. The 
 next resolution is, that the qualifications of teachers in circuit schools should 
 be a knowledge of English or Dutch, or both. That covers the same ground 
 as the resolution of the Taal Congress. That is accepted. The next is, that 
 Standard V. should be assimilated to Standard YL, by inserting the words, 
 " English or Dutch, or both." That is accepted. The next is, "That the 
 regulation in the Education Manual, page 15, paragraph 10, regarding instruc- 
 tion to be given in mission schools through the medium of the English 
 language should be abolished, and that here, as in other schools, liberty 
 should be given in the matter of language." If the members of the Com- 
 mission will refer to page 15 of the Education Manual relating to mission 
 schools, it will be noticed that the last section reads, " The instruction during 
 the ordinary school hoiu's shall, as far as practicable, be given through the 
 medium of the English language." That is the original minute of 1841. 
 It was taken over into the Education Act of 1865, and there it has remained. 
 My answer as to the alteration of the Education Act by the removal of 
 certain words in the regulations for mission schools "through the medium 
 of the English language as far as practicable," is, that I think the last clause 
 is elastic-enough, and since 1841, when the original minute was issued, no 
 difficulty has arisen — that is to say, that mission schools have just the same 
 liberty as any others — some are conducted in Dutch, some in English, and 
 some in both langungcs. Then the next resolution was about Inspectors 
 having a knowledge of Dutch : that has been dealt with. The next was, 
 that in all examinations, questions on the Dutch language should be put in 
 Dutch. I say, I have no objection to that, if it does not act against the 
 candidate. I have since received a copy of the further resolutions carried 
 by the last Synod of the Dutch lleformed Church with regard to Education. 
 The first is, "The Synod approves of the plan of the Superintendent-General 
 of Education to endeavour to procure from Government an increase of tlie 
 number of pupil teacheis, in order that they may be trained as teachers f(ir 
 District Schools." With regard to that, 1 have pointed out to the Govern- 
 ment in my report, that it is absolutely necessary to train more elementary 
 [G. 9— '91.] >■
 
 36 
 
 Laii Aflw D,iif teachers, especially for work in the country districts, and the resolution of 
 
 k.o!m.g., ma. the Dutch C'hurch Synod simply assures mo that they will work in with such 
 
 ^^^- a plan and do their best to promote it, if the Government will give more 
 
 Fob. Jiet, 1891 allowances for pupil teachers ; that is disposed of as far as I am concerned, 
 
 and it now rests with Parliament. 
 
 300. Prcsident.~\ How are pupil teachers generally obtained now ? — 
 Pupil teachers are aftached to the normal college for boys and the normal 
 departments of some fii-st class schools for girls, and to efficient schools 
 generally through the colony, and they are under engagement, after serving 
 as pupil teachers for three years, to come up as candidates for the teacher's 
 certiiicate. Other candidates for teacher's certificates are received who aro 
 not pupil teachers, provided they show that they have been under systematic 
 training, and that they satisfy one of the School Inspectors as to their practical 
 knowledge of teaching ; they of course go through the examination ; but we 
 find that with all these agencies at work it is difficult to keep up a sufficient 
 supply, especially of governesses for the private farm schools. One reason why 
 the supply is inadequate is, that the Transvaal and Free State are good enough 
 to poach upon us, and as fast as our candidates pass the teacher's examination, 
 they are employed in the neighbouring States. I reckon that wc have lost 
 1 00 teachers during the last year or two, through their being tempted to go 
 elsewhere, I cannot complain of that because I do the same by recruiting 
 my ranks by getting trained teachers from Scotland and other countries ; but 
 at the same time I must meet the difficulty. When farmers and school 
 committees complain that they cannot get elementary teachers, I must 
 endeavour to meet the want. 
 
 301. How do you propose to do that ? — Merely by increasing the 
 number of pupil teachers. Instead of 180 pupil teachers I should like to 
 have 400 at least. 
 
 302. Dean Holmes.'] Can you suggest any system for a training 
 college ? — Wc do not want that ; we want rather to follow the new lines 
 they arc going upon at Home ; abolish training colleges, and have your 
 teachers trained in day schools, so as to avoid expense. Day-school training 
 only costs the Government £18 a year for each, whereas every boy at tho 
 Normal College costs at least £60 a year, of which the Government pays its 
 share, but the Dutch Church has to find the rest. They find it too expensive, 
 and so do we. For these elementary schools, the day-school training would 
 be adequate. 
 
 303. Dr. Berry.'] Would a pupil teacher, when he has finished his 
 engagement with the Government, be qualified for a third-class school ? — 
 Perhaps for a second-class school, at all events for a third. We want them 
 for the third class, or the proposed fourth class schools. There is no 
 difficulty whatever in getting pupil teachers, especially young women. You 
 can always get them in sufficient numbers all through the Colony, but it is 
 found that to train one or two pupil teachers in a big school causes great 
 delay and trouble. I would much prefer to train a staff of ten or twelve, 
 and then be allowed to have on the staff a method master, who would have 
 special charge of the pupil teachers and take his share in the daily work. 
 These method-masters would be specially charged with preparing the pupil 
 teachers for the final examinations. For young men I do not know what we 
 are to do. Colonial young men will never become teachers. There are 
 plenty of other openings, and they will not submit to the confinement and 
 restraints of a schoolmaster's position. 
 
 304. Provident.] They would ultimately become teachers, would they 
 not ? — No ; it is not in theii- nature to continue as teachers. 
 
 305. Then the teachers must come from abroad ? — You must get your 
 male teachers from abroad. The few who are trained at the Normal College 
 teach as long as they are obliged to — that is, for three years, but after that 
 they thiuw it up. In reference to the Synod's resolution, I should tell them
 
 37 
 
 I would submit a plan for the extension of the pupil teacher system to the sir 
 Government, and thank them for their promise of co-operation in such a k.om.'g./mIa. 
 scheme. In reference to the question put by the Dean, I may say that the i-i^t)- 
 Synod discussed the question whether it was better to promote training Feb. 2T»t7 isoi. 
 colleges or have day-school training, and they came to the conclusion that 
 the training colleges were altogether too expensive, and after you have 
 trained your young men as you do at the Normal College, you still cannot 
 get them to teach. You bring them to the water, but they will not drink. 
 
 306. You have stated that some of the questions proposed by the Taal 
 Congress and the Dutch Synod are more proper for the University Council 
 to answer. I find that on the 24th of January, 1891, the South African 
 Teachers' Association did answer the questions ? — Yes ; I have seen the reply 
 of the South African Teachers' Association to the resolutions of the Synod 
 and the Taal Congress, 
 
 307. Do you concur in their conclusions ? — I am reserving myself for 
 the meeting of the University Council. Of course, if you ask me what is 
 my opinion, it is just this : that the Education Department can do no more 
 than it does at present. I can only hope to secure a larger number of 
 teachers qualified in the English and Dutch languages. There is no adequate 
 supply at present. The Dutch language can be further encouraged through 
 the examinations which are conducted by the University. As you are aware, 
 these examinations are not conducted under any Act of Parliament ; the 
 University conducts them, but they could abandon them to-morrow. These 
 school examinations were taken up by the University simply to encourage 
 all schools, public and private, and the Education Department is iu no way 
 connected with them. As, however, they have been instituted, and certainly 
 have created a wonderful spirit of emulation through the whole country, I 
 think it would be a pity for the sake of all schools, private and public, to 
 discontinue them ; and I think further, that the only way in which the 
 University Council could meet the wishes of the Dutch Church Sj-nod with 
 regard to the Dutch language would be by adding a paper of questions in 
 that language, so that all those who wished to be examined in Dutch would 
 have an opportunity of being tested, and the names of the candidates would 
 appear in the order of merit oc examination, as it is at present, but those 
 who have passed also in Dutch would be distinguished in the list by a mark 
 such as an asterisk. 
 
 308. You would not make it a compulsory subject ? — You cannot make 
 any language compulsory. 
 
 309. Mr. Theron.'] Do you not make the English language compulsory 
 for the Dutch-speaking community ? — They need not come up for examin- 
 ation: there is no compulsion; it is purely voluntary. I may say tliat tlu' 
 Synod also put forward a motion about colleges conuected with a Teaching' 
 University. It reads thus, "Taking into consideration the condition of our 
 country, the existing system of colleges supported by Government is, in the 
 opinion of this Assembly, more advantageous to the advancement of higher 
 education, than the assembling of all students in one University." I think 
 that is a matter that the Commission probably will not deal with I have 
 told them what my own opinion is. 
 
 310. President'] "What is that ? — That there must be, in such an 
 enormous country as this, local centres at all events, for Faculties of Arts, so 
 that the various colleges in places like Grahamstown, Stellenbosch, and so on, 
 should be certainly maintained, but on the groxmd of economy it will be 
 necessary to have only one — it might be called the University College— for 
 applied sciences particularly. I mean for Engineering and technical teaching 
 generally, as well as for Medicine and Surgery. 
 
 311. That you think should be in one centre? — Yes, one centre; but 
 as regards Faculties of Arts, we shall have to go on the lines of modern
 
 38 
 
 ,„ ;,^' n„, Universities, and carry them to the various centres of population. Any 
 
 K.cSfo., MA. attempt to bring all the students who arc preparing for a degree in Arts to 
 
 ^ilT* one centre like Cape Town, would simply fail. That is the opinion I put on 
 
 Feb. -ji.t, 1891. record. Then the Synod wished to bring to my notice the desirability of 
 
 making Bible history a subject to be taught in all schools. I have told thcra 
 
 that that is their business. Bible history is part of an historical course, and 
 
 history is provided for. I cannot write to a manager and say, you must 
 
 teach Bible history. The Inspector probably asks theiu why they leave out 
 
 sacred history. Teaching the Bible I should say was religious instruction, 
 
 but a knowledge of the history of the Jewish people falls within the course 
 
 of history, and would be a secular subject. 
 
 312. Rev. Coctzec.'] Does not religious instruction mean Bible history? 
 — Religious instruction includes Bible history, but I am not prepared to say 
 that teaching Bible history is instruction in religion. I do not think it is. 
 You might teach a Mohammedan child the history of the Old and New 
 Testaments, but you could hardly say you were giving him instruction in 
 religion. I read the Koran, but I read it simply as a matter of history and 
 literature. 
 
 313. Presidejit.~\ It is through catechising and creeds that you teach 
 religion, is it not ? — Yes. 
 
 314. Rev. Coetsee.'] From what you say, one can only arrive at the 
 conclusion that mere Bible history is not religious instruction ? — I should 
 not call it so. 
 
 315. What is meant by "religious instruction"? — I say that is too 
 difficult a question for the Superintendent-General of Education. A very 
 broad line has been drawn in Parliament between religious instruction and 
 instruction in religion. We used to permit religious instruction at a time 
 set apart, and Parliament in its wisdom altered that and said, you can give 
 instruction in religion^ which is quite a diiierent thing. You are perf(?ctly at 
 liberty now in the undenominational public schools to teach the Korthegrip, 
 or the English Church Catechism, but you must not force it upon any 
 scholars. 
 
 31 G. You are at liberty to teach it? — Yes. 
 
 317. President.'] What is the difference between religious instruction 
 and instruction in religion ? — I take it that if children are taught to recite 
 the Lord's Prayer, that is religious instruction, but if they are taught to 
 recite the Church Catechism, that is instruction in the Christian religion as 
 represented by the Church of England. 
 
 318. Rev. 3Ioorrees.~\ We draw a very broad distinction in the Dutch 
 Church between Godsdienst onderuiijs and Godsdienstig onderwij's ; the one is 
 equal to instruction in religion and the other instruction in the particular 
 creed of a certain sect or denomination. When I speak of religious instruc- 
 lion, it has reference to moral influence ?— The question is a very difficult 
 one. 
 
 319. Dean Holmes'] Is the minister of any particular denomination at 
 liberty to go into an undenominational school and teach religion ? — Not 
 unless the managers give permission. I know of a case where the minister 
 of a German congregation gives religious instruction in an undenominational 
 school every morning at half-past eight o'clock. The children are chiefly 
 Gennans ; but then the teachers and the general staff do not assemble 
 until nine o'clock. You can scarcely say that that is during school hours. 
 The managers requested the minister to come half-an-houi- before the 
 school hour to give religious instruction. The managers may provide for 
 instruction in religion. They might provide it during school hours, but in 
 this case it is provided for before the school hours. 
 
 320. President.'] Is it not rather inconvenient to provide for it during 
 school hours if it is not to be a subject in which all can join ? — Practically 
 it resolves itself into this — for convenience, the first half hour is given to
 
 39 
 religious instruction, or instruction in religion, according as the managers ^" 
 
 iv,- 1 £i. »j ' <-> o Zangliam Sale, 
 
 think fit. K.C.M.G.. M.A. 
 
 321. Dean Holmes.'] And is it given by the teachers? — By the ^—' 
 teachers as far as I can judge ; except this one case I have mentioned. ^«''- ^ist, isoi 
 
 322. And any child can withdraw if it likes ? — Yes ; or it can be 
 otherwise employed. I do not know that the children ever go out. Perhaps 
 an exception may be made in the case of a few, or a Eoman Catholic, but 
 generally all join in the religious instruction, though no one is forced to take 
 part in it. 
 
 32'3. Are the registers required to be marked before the religious 
 instruction is given, or afterwards ? — Usually they are made up at the end 
 of the morning. There is another resolution adopted by the Synod as 
 follows : — "The Synod requests the Government so to extend its support of 
 education that all schools aided by the country should have half their 
 necessary expenses paid by Government ; and that the Synod ask the 
 Superintendent-General of Education to support this request." That point 
 was raised yesterday, should the Government pay half the expense of the 
 accommodation for the school and teachers ; and I have intimated that I am 
 inclined to meet the case by paying half the rent in those cases where the 
 Government has not given any building grant. 
 
 324. President.~\ You in fact answer that question in the affirmative ? — 
 Yes. Then the next is, " That the Synod request Government to take steps 
 for the establishing of an Industrial Department in connection with the 
 Boys' Public Schools in our cities and towns." T may say in regard to that, 
 that there are already 18 trade classes in connection with the public schools, 
 either boys or girls. I have had a great deal of difficulty in keeping them 
 going, but if there is a wish to extend carpenters' shops and other means of 
 industrial training, I think there can be no objection. Then the next 
 resolution is : — ''The Synod approves of the establishing of the proposed 
 fourth class schools for poor European children, provided they are managed 
 by the committees of existing public schools or by committees chosen by 
 the public, with the consent of the committees of existing public schools." 
 On that point I have not answered the Synod. I have simply reported that 
 the managers should be subject to the approval of the Government, and 
 leave it perfectly open. 
 
 325. Would the managers of the fourth class undenominational schools 
 also be managers of public schools of the first, second and third class ? — There 
 is nothing to prevent it, but I would not make it a rule. 
 
 326. You could have one set of managers in the same locality for the 
 first-class undenominational public school and another set of managers in the 
 same locality for the fourth class school, could you not ? — Not in the same 
 locality — in the same town. If, for instance, addition ^ 1 schools were wanted 
 in Graham's Town, and the existing committee declined to do anything, then 
 I should say, I must go on without you. 
 
 327. Dean Holmes.] Take the case of an existing mission school at 
 Graham's Town ; if you turned it into a fourth class undenominational 
 school, there might be a new committee for that, might there not ? — I think so, 
 provided the Government were satisfied with the management. 
 
 328. Mr. Theron.] As far as languages go, the whole school system is 
 guided by rule 10 on page 15 of the Education Manual, as I understand ? — 
 That relates to mission schools ; it has nothing to do with the undenomina- 
 tional public schools. There is no rule at all about language in regard to 
 them. The condition as to language was struck out in 1882 by a resolution 
 of both Houses of Parliament. That resolution did away with the clause which 
 provided that instruction should be given through the medium of the English 
 language in undenominational public schools. Mr. Marais moved it.
 
 40 
 
 Sir 329. Dr. Berri/.'] Where did the rule appear before that ? — It appeared 
 
 1v.c'.m'.g", m.a. iu the Education Act of 18G5. It was part of the original Act, but, as I 
 
 ^^•^ - say, it was struck out by a resolution of both Houses of Parliament. 
 Feb. 21st, is'ji. 330. They amended the Act by resolution ?- Yes ; that power is 
 
 reser\'ed in the Act. All additional regulations are made by a resolution of 
 both Houses. 
 
 331. Rev. Coctzce.'] Nobody can exclude English from schools, but does 
 it follow that English is compulsory in every school ? — When a committee 
 makes regulations, if they put one in to the effect that no English shall be 
 taught iu such and such a school, 1 simply strike it out and say I will not 
 pass it. 
 
 332. Dr. Berry.'] And the same if they passed a regulation to the effect 
 that no Dutch should be taught ? — Of course ; we should object to such a 
 regulation. 
 
 333. 3Ir. Thcron.'\ Suppose your Inspector comes to one of the schools 
 in a town or village and finds nothing but Dutch taught ? — He makes no 
 observation whatever ; he just examines in Dutch. 
 
 334. You would not stop a grant on account of that ? — No ; he has to 
 examine in Dutch. It is the daily practice ; he examines both in English 
 and Dutch, but if Dutch only is taught, he simply examines the school in 
 that language and reports ; but the grant is not affected by it. 
 
 335. There seems to be an erroneous impression abroad as to that ? — I 
 daresay. If you made a law to-morrow, it would take some years before it 
 would be known in the back country. I have been working now for 32 
 years, but it is impossible sometimes to get even teachers to read the regula- 
 tions, although they are on the walls of the school-room. 
 
 330. How is it that you retain this clause with regard to mission schools 
 in relation to the Dutch and English languages ? — It is just an accident, there 
 was no particular reason for striking it out. Nobody ever complained about it. 
 
 337. Rev. Moorrecs.'] I do not think it is a question so much what the 
 denomination is, but which is the best way to teach coloured children. Do 
 not you consider it a strange way of instructing a child to begin to teach it 
 in a foreign language ? — The philosophical view would be that all Dutch- 
 speaking childi-en should first be taught Dutch, and then English should V>e 
 introduced, but from discussions that have gone on year after year with my 
 Department, I find that all teachers insist upon it that there is only one way, 
 they must begin with English, otherwise they say they never get the children 
 to acquire a proper English accent. 
 
 338. Rev. Coetzee.] Is not that due to the teachers not being fully 
 qualified to teach Dutch perhaps ? — In mission schools generally you find 
 that tlie teachers know Dutch rather better than they do English. 
 
 339. Rev. Moorrees.'] Is it not infinitely of more importance to have a 
 proper knowledge of the language than a correct accent ? For instance, if I 
 go to England, I find that there are various accents, and to those unaccus- 
 tomed to the English language, it is not easy to make out which is the 
 correct one. There may be very learned men using different accents, may 
 tluiie not ? — It is useless to make a law as to J;he mode of procedure in regard 
 to language, unless the teachers will adopt it. 
 
 340. But might not the Department express its opinion as to the proper 
 way of proceeding in regard to the teaching of language ? — That has been a 
 question ever since I have been in office. Every year it crops up, but I am 
 met at once by the teachers saying they cannot do it. 
 
 341. Is it not generally admitted that in giving a child instruction, you 
 proceed to work on the knowledge the child has ? — It would work very well 
 of course in a country place where the Dutch population predominates, but 
 what are j'^ou to do in a mission school in Cape Town, where there is an 
 oq'.ial division, half to be taught Dutch and half to be taught English. Will 
 you have two schools.
 
 41 
 
 342. I am not speaking so much as to the practicability of the plan, but Sir 
 what would be the right plan ?— I quite agree that the philosophical plan is K^aBrr", m1. 
 to teach children through their own mother tongue, and work up to a certain -t^^.r). 
 point before you introduce a second language. Feb. iuTisoi. 
 
 343. Are you not of opinion that the University programme of examina- 
 tions guides to a great extentthe instruction given in the schools ? — It mav ; I 
 consider that the examination is not altogether good for the public schools • 
 it does good to private schools, but there is a tendency in the University 
 examinations to interfere too much with the curriculum of the public schools, 
 and the children are harassed by the efforts of the teachers to prepare them 
 for two things, the regular inspection on the one hand, and the examinations 
 of the University on the other. The preparation for the Inspector's examina- 
 tions is necessary, and really useful ; the other may be useful, but it is more 
 or less a cram. 
 
 344. As a matter of fact, we find that in most schools the teachers are 
 to a great extent guided by the programme of the University examinations ? 
 — It is difficult to say; the total enrolment of children attending the aided 
 schools is 100,000, and the number of children who came up to the Uni\er- 
 sity examination last year (the Elementary) was only 800 or 900 — a very 
 small proportion. 
 
 345. I find that when the last Commission sat, a question was put to 
 you about introducing science teaching, and you then made the remark that 
 it would be difficult to introduce a subject not taken up by the University 
 examinations, because the teachers were to some extent guided by it ? — 
 I think the teachers are considerably influenced by the curriculum for the 
 matriculation examination ; but I cannot say that it is anything like univer- 
 sal, when you get only one or two children in a whole division going in for 
 the elementary examination, as sometimes happens. 
 
 346. We find that in the elementary examinations, Dutch is not taken 
 up as a subject, and consequently, I think that in a good many schools 
 Dutch is neglected at the beginning, because a child does not need it for the 
 elementary examination ; is not that so V — There may be something in that, 
 but at the same time, I do not think that the elementary examination has 
 pervaded the country schools so much as to have much effect upon whether 
 they teach Dutch or not. If you put it the other way, and say, would the 
 addition of Dutch be a spur to the teacher to give more attention to it, I say 
 certainly it would. 
 
 347. The great complaint with a certain section of the community is 
 this ; they say the Department of Education gives perfect liberty to use 
 Dutch as a medium, but on the other hand, the teacher will not use it, and 
 then again, as the elementary examination does not require Dutch, there is 
 nothing to stimulate the teacher to study it ? — I think this may have a good 
 deal of influence in private schools. 
 
 348. Does not the greater part of the candidates for the University 
 examinations come from private schools ? — The elementary oxaraination is 
 quite outside the Education Department ; it has nothing to do with it. Many 
 candidates are from private schools. 
 
 349. One of the instructions to the Commission is to find out whether 
 greater facilities can be afforded for teaching Dutch — your opinion is, tliat 
 encouraging both languages would advance the study of the English lan- 
 guage ? — That is our experience. 
 
 350. Do not you think that in the early stages of instruction, a f hild 
 who has to learn two languages is at a disadvantage compared with the 
 child who has only to learn one V — You would think so ; but experienced 
 people tell us that when you have two languages working together, the child 
 has a wonderful facility for acquiring the two, It is not the same thing 
 as learning two languages separately. 
 
 351. Prom the beginning, before he knows either of the languages':' —
 
 42 
 
 ^" My impression is that the simultaneous study might begin with advantage to 
 
 K.airlo'., M.A. the child at once. For instance, an object lesson is given, and the object is 
 
 ^^■^- described and the conversation goes on, and questions are put in English or 
 Feb. 2i8t, 1891. Dutch, or both. 
 
 352. We find, as a matter of fact, that a good many of our children 
 stay a very short time at school ; would it not be better for such children to 
 give them instruction in one language only ? — That practically is the case in 
 many schools. 
 
 353. Where it is possible, we would like both languages to be known, 
 but if a child is to be only a short time at school, it is an advantage to 
 learn only one ? — Yuu cannot lay down a rigid law for these cases, but the 
 Inspector would at once recognize the utility of a child studying one language 
 under such circumstances. 
 
 354. President.'] But the University Elementary Examinations would 
 not touch cases of that kind, would they ? — No. 
 
 355. Jiev. Moorrecs.'] I asked you whether the Education Department 
 would recommend that infants should be taught through the medium of their 
 own language, and I think your answer was that the Department could 
 hardly do that '? — I think it is ultra vires to enforce such a rule. 
 
 356. The Department of course guards the expenditure of Government 
 money, and if by such a method of instruction we necessitate the child 
 remaining longer in school, would not that give the Department the right to 
 interfere ? — Yes ; but I am met by a consensus of teachers saying that they 
 find by experience their way is best. 
 
 357. I believe you said there were four of the Inspectors who under- 
 stood Dutch perfectly. Has any complaint been made to you about the 
 inspection, because it is felt sometimes that the inspection in Dutch is 
 somewhat supei"ficial ? — I have fui-nished the Commission with the reports of 
 the Inspectors of every school for last year, and you will fiud that so many 
 are reported as able to read Dutch, and so many to write Dutch correctly, 
 and so on. The Inspector must go through the individual cases, and he has 
 to register in a schedule the results of the inspection, whether in Dutch or in 
 English. 
 
 358. But is it not the fact that the Inspector sometunes asks the Dutch 
 Reformed Church minister to inspect the class, and he just makes his notes ? 
 — If the Inspector happens to be deficient in his knowledge of Dutch, that 
 may occur. Sometimes an Inspector has to be employed to meet an emer- 
 gency, and he may not feel quite at home in talking Dutch. 
 
 359. Would not that have a bad effect on the children ? — No ; on the 
 contrary, I think it has a good effect if he gets the clergyman to go into the 
 school and put the children through their paces in Dutch. 
 
 360. But would not the children think that Dutch was not of so much 
 importance if the Inspector did not inspect himself ? — I should have thought 
 it was giving the language a recognition by his asking the clergyman to 
 examine the class. 
 
 361. Rev. Coetsec.'] Seeing that wc have very few undenominational 
 schools in reality, would it not be better to remove any misunderstanding as 
 far as the rural population is concerned, and abolish the designation and call 
 them simply Government aided schools ? — I should object to call them 
 " Government," because the schools belong to the people. I would call them 
 " public schools," and drop the word " undenominational." It would be a 
 matter of convenience to the department ; the position of the aided system 
 is, that the schools belong to the people and not to the Government. In 
 former days there were Government schools. The district boarding school 
 at Albert, for instance, is " your " school ; it is a public aided school, it is 
 not undenominational, but a boarding-school ; and a boarding-school must 
 have a distinct religion.
 
 43 
 
 362. Some people object to the term "undenominational" ; they think ^^ k^t Dzu 
 it has an irreligious tone ? — It is difficult to get a Dutch equivalent ; but I k.c.m.o., m.a. 
 should have no objection to drop the word " undenominational, " if the ll^- 
 feelings of anyone are offended by it. I know that some people have Feb. 2ist, i89i. 
 objected to it ; they cannot understand it. 
 
 363. Some of the country people live long distances from the centres 
 of education, and some have very large families, and a very limited income, 
 and they find it very hard to establish schools. "Would it not be some 
 assistance to them if the Government paid the salary of the teacher in full, 
 and fixed the salary at a maximum, say not to exceed £150 a year, allowing 
 him to draw the school fees, to be fixed by the Department, in addition ? — 
 Practically that is what we do ; but we do not give such a large amount. In 
 a poor district, where we can get together a reasonable number of children, 
 a station is fixed, which can be one of a circuit, and the salary of the 
 teacher is paid by the Government. He gets free board and lodging and 
 £60 per annum from Government. 
 
 364. Dr. Birrjj.'\ Is much of the correspondence with your oflice carried 
 on in Dutch ? — Yes ; there is an increasing correspondence between the 
 farmers and my oflBce. 
 
 366. Every facility, I presume, is given to those farmers in the way of 
 communicating with you in Dutch. You reply to them in Dutch ? — When 
 I think it necessary I have a Dutch letter sent. A mere formal acknowledg- 
 ment is written in English. 
 
 366. No difficulty is put in the way of getting replies to a Dutch 
 letter ? — No. The only difficulty is sometimes in understanding the letters 
 that are written. They are written in ordinary Dutch ; and it taxes my 
 Dutch interpreter to help me to a solution of what is meant, but I do try as 
 far as possible to answer in their own language, if there are any points that 
 require to be explained ; and I send them the rules in Dutch. 
 
 367. Mr. Theron.] Is it not a fact that these farmers in the country 
 districts, when they have any communication with your office, generally 
 carry it on through the minister, or somebody like that ? — Not now. It 
 used to be through the minister, but latterly I have noticed more letters com- 
 ing from the farmers themselves. 
 
 368. Dr. Berry.'] I understand that Dutch is compulsory now in the 
 Civil Service ?— Yes, Dutch of a kind ; colloquial Dutch is wanted. 
 
 396. Is it a fact that young men who know Dutch fairly well, would 
 stand at a considerable advantage in the Civil Service Examination ?-— Yes. 
 
 370. So that there is really an inducement to encourage the teaching of 
 Dutch in schools ? — For those who wish to get into the Civil Service. 
 
 371. Dean Holmes.'] Is the kind of Dutch taught in schools different to 
 colloquial Dutch ? — It is an approach to what you might call classical Dutch ; 
 it is a compromise in fact. 
 
 372. President.] I suppose as a fact, every man who knows high Dutch, 
 as they call it, is inevitably able to understand colloquial Dutch ? — Yes ; but 
 not vice versa. 
 
 373. It is always a wise thing to teach the best Dutch, is it not ?— Yes. 
 
 374. What contributions can be expected from Divisional Councils and 
 local bodies ? — That is a question I cannot give a very decided opinion about ; 
 it is mixed up with the question of buildings. 
 
 375. Mr. Theron.] I find in your last annual report for 1889 the number 
 of schools is given as 1,447, but comparing that with the return you luiuded 
 in yesterday, it seems that as far as the white population is concerned, their 
 schools have been decreasing, and as far as the native population is concerned, 
 their schools have been increasing ?— It is the other way ; you are comparing 
 the complete annual report with a quarterly report. When I report to 
 Parliament for the whole year, a school that has been d^-awing money, if only 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] «
 
 44 
 
 /<,n,f/fam j)a!f ^^^ ^ quarter, must appear, so that the annual cni'olment and (i(>Pcription of 
 K.C.M.U., M.A. the osliiblishmonts are quite S(>parate thiiisj;.s from the mere statement of what 
 LLJO. jg going on ill a particular quarter, such as I handed in yesterday. You 
 Feb. 21st, 1891. mubt Hot Compare the annual description with the quarterly one, but with 
 the next annual report. A r<turn to Parliament is completed to the end of 
 the tinancial year in June. The next quarterly statement of schools may 
 differ; perhaps there will be 100 schools fluctuating?. I sweej> off the list 
 every .school that is doubtful the tirst quarter. If they do not draw the 
 grant that quarter they do not appear, but very lilcely the next quarter I 
 may have some of them reopened, so that by the end of the year the normal 
 number of schools will have bct-n kept up. All temporarily suspended 
 schools disappear the first quarter. It might happen in this way. You 
 say there were 1,447 schools when I closed my financial report in June. 
 1890, but on the list for last quarter I may have swept some off if they have 
 not been drawing any money for the last three months ; but they may come 
 on again. The increase of native schools is practically nil, but the increase 
 of public undenominational schools, boarding schools, circuit schools, and so 
 on, is fairly large, and it would be inufh larger if 1 had not to refuse aid. 1 
 could certainly have had some forty more schools since the first of January 
 if I had not to tell them I had no money. It is simply a question of what 
 money ^vill be voted. 
 
 370. Then in your report for Ir^SQ, in looking over the tables of pay- 
 ments made to different schools, I find " undenominational public schools 
 £32,120 17s. 4d.," but if you look lower down, you find that undenomina- 
 tional schools drew £-j5,487 17s. lOd. ? — The managers drew from me 
 £32,120 17s. 4d., but they spent themselves £53,487 17s. lOd. 
 
 377. 2^ resident.'] But do not they get the fees?— Yes; but they still 
 have the expenses of maintenance. For every £1 they draw for a public 
 undenominational .school, you may say they spend £2. In the ordinary 
 native or mission schools, as a rule, for every £1 the Government spends, 
 the people certainly do not spend more than £1 ; perhaps not quite so much. 
 
 378. Mr. Theron.~\ You say that the average cost of each scholar in 
 daily attendance, exclusive of the general expenses of administration and 
 inspection, was £4 Os. lO^d, of whirh the Governiueut paid £1 14s. 7|d. 
 I take it that in calculating this, you take every scholar in the school ? — I 
 only take the average daily attendance, which is about 74 per cent, of the 
 enrolment. 
 
 379. Then you take the mission schools and aborigines schools alto- 
 gether ? — Yes. It would not be fair to calculate the children who have 
 only been in attendance say for a quarter ; we calculate the average for the 
 ■whole year, which is found now to come to about 74 per cent. 
 
 380. What additional facilities do you think can be provided to meet 
 the wants of the children of the agricultural population ? — I am sorry to 
 say none. I think everything has been done to help them. 
 
 381. Rev. Coetzee.'] In the Free State and Transvaal, the Government 
 pays the salaries of the teachers in full, and they are allowed to draw the 
 fees in addition. Do you ap]n'ove of that ? — It is the system that I abolished 
 about 32 years ago. 1 found it in practice here, and it was abused. 
 
 382. But it seems to answer in those States ? — I do not think it answers 
 at all. The cost of each cliild to the Government in the Free Stale is £1G ; 
 here it is less than £2. The old system was the greatest abu.se we had. The 
 teacher got a fixed salary from the Government, and all he could get by fees 
 and capitations for numbtrs. The consequence was, that the school was 
 poorly attended all the year except when the In.spector came round. They 
 used to bring in all the children who had ever been at the school, and the 
 Inspector was indeed astonished to find such a large attendance. When a 
 pupil was asked, " H(^w many days have you been at school?" the reply 
 was, " I have not been at school at all except to-day." I am sorry to see
 
 45 
 
 the two neighbouring States falling into tliat error. Generally they Imitate sir 
 
 US, even to the adoption of our printed forms. The schools in question are k^c^'u". m''), 
 ■what may be called " private adventure schools," with sufficient ai<l from ^-^'^■ 
 Government to keep a man from starving. I am afraid of the system. Feb. 2i„t, i89i. 
 
 383. Eev. 3Ioorrees.'] Is it not a drawback, the difficulty of getting 
 school buildings for farm schools and district boarding scliools ?— It is 
 difficult to get really good accommodation. Some of the rooms are not 
 healthy — not big enough. 
 
 384. Is there no chance of the Government assisting in this direction? 
 — ^^It is so difficult to devise a plan for giving aid to buildings situated on 
 private property. 
 
 385. Bev. CoelzeeJ Wh-^reit is not private property, is it not advisable 
 to suggest to the Government to have a law passed to the effect that the 
 local managers for the time being shall bo trustees to hold such property in 
 trust for the public ? — Yes ; but then, the necessity for sucli a school may 
 disappear in a year or two, and then the buildings are of no use. 
 
 380. Presiilent.~\ If the Government were to build, it would be a great 
 tax on the country, would it not ? — Yes. These private farm schools seldom 
 exist for more than two years. After they have been closed a year or two, 
 some people may 'iome with children and they may bo revived. 
 
 387. How can you secure fuller use of the opportunities now afforded 
 for education ? — 1 can only reply by Parliament : ceuring the Education 
 Department against any sudden retrenchment of expenditure. The schools 
 will be better supported if those who send their children feel tbat there is 
 no fear of the grants being suddenly retrenched. 
 
 388. Mr. Theron.~\ As far as school buildings arc; concerned, is there 
 any compulsion on the Governmcmt whenever anybody has gone to any 
 expense and supplied all the requirements to your Department, to make pro- 
 vision for the construction of a building ? — There is an express notice that 
 the Education Department is not responsible for any liabilities whatever if 
 the managers anticipate Government gi-ants ; they must wait till they are 
 voted ; they must not incur expen<liture in expectation of Government aid. 
 
 389. Rev. Moorrees.] But if the consent of the Superintendent-General 
 of Education is previously obtained ? — If the Superintendent-General of 
 Education promises that he will make provision in his estimates, it does not 
 follow that Parliament will vote the money. 
 
 390. But is not Government morally bound to vo'e iho money accord- 
 ing to the cIhusc in the regulations ? — I think so ; I consider that as the 
 Parliament has provided certain regulations, those who conform to those 
 regulations have a moral if not a 1 gal claim for tlieir demands to be sub- 
 mitted to Parliament. If Parliament refuses, tve cannot help it. 
 
 391. Presidcnt.~\ In your report of 1887 on Education, presented to 
 Parliament, pages 13 to 15, under the head " Extension of aid," yon 
 suggested to give further aid to volimtary bodies ; do you still adhere to 
 that 2- — There is not quite the same necessity now. Just at that time I felt 
 that we were not extending our schools quite so fa.st as could be wished, and 
 I thought it was as well to avail myself of every possible agency ; but 1 still 
 hold to this, that where the Education Department feels th.'it the school 
 supply in any locality is inadequate to nieet the wants of the children, 
 voluntary schools, under the quasi i)ubi'.c uuniagement of Religious or Educa- 
 tional Societies have a claim for paymcmt for work done, payment for results ; 
 but no private adventure school carried on for the prvjfil of the proprietor 
 ought to have such a claim. 
 
 392. Do j'ou think the schools mentioned bj' y6u ought to be aided to 
 the extent you state they might be aided ? — I think it is a fair claim, if they 
 do tiie work, that they should be aided as supplementary to the Public 
 School System. 
 
 r *>
 
 46 
 , ?" „ , 393. That is independently of the fourth class undenominational 
 
 K.C.M.G., M.A. schools f — Ycs. 
 
 i^i^. 394 j^gjj Moo7-rees.~] A proposal of that kind was made in your supple- 
 
 Feb. 2i8t, 1891. mentary report, was it not ? — No ; it was made previously, but I referred to 
 it a second time. I eliminate all private adventure schools which are carried 
 on for the profit of the proprietor. 
 
 395. Dr. Bcrry.~\ What are your views as to night schools ? — I have 
 tried them and given them up. This is not a oountry for night schools, 
 except for two or three months. 
 
 396. Mr. R<m'an.'\ It was brought to my notice at Stellenbosch that a 
 parent had been living in four different towns, and in each place the books 
 used were different, and he had to get now sets ? — At present I give a free 
 outfit, and after that the managers can get supplies at half price. We leave 
 it to them to make their own arrangements for selling the books to the chil- 
 dren, but they must not sell them above cost price ; the selection is first 
 made by the Department. 
 
 G((pe Totvn, Monday, February '2orr/, 1891. 
 
 PRESENT : 
 
 Sir J. D. ]}.\RRT (President), 
 
 T. P. Theron, Esq., 
 
 Rev. Coetzce, 
 
 A. N. Rowan, Esq. 
 
 L-^un Holmes, 
 Rev. Moorrees, 
 Dr. Berry, 
 
 C. B. Elliott, E.<in., LL.B. examined. 
 
 C.B. Elliott, Esg., i J 1 
 
 LL.B. o97. President.] You are the General Manager of Railways? — Yes. 
 
 Feb. 2iird^ 1891. 398. Ilavc vou sccu a copy of the Commission ? — Yes. * 
 
 399. We specially wish you to give some information with regard to 
 the second point referred to us, viz. : What additional facilities can be pro- 
 vided to meet the wants of children of persons employed on the lines of rail- 
 way, but we shall be glad if you can extend your answers to anything 
 further? — I may say that I sent out a circular on the 2nd of May, 1890, 
 with regard to station schools, stating the new facilities given in consultation 
 with Sir Langham Dale, with a view to as.sist these minor schools ; and 
 although several schools have been started in accordance with this circular, I 
 think we have not yet tri(>d the system sufficiently to be able to say how it 
 is going to work ; there has not been sufficieut time. As the facilities are 
 better known, I be'ieve they will be more appreciated and made more use of. 
 I tliiuk that the conditions stated there are sufficient to secure education for 
 all children whose 2)areuts are really anxious that they should be educated. 
 
 400. On the railway you mean? — Yes, on the railway. I will hand 
 in a copy of the circular referred to. [See Appendix.] 
 
 401. Is there anj' disinclination on the jiart of parents to avail 
 themselves of these opportunities? — I have not heard of any. I have 
 had conversations lately on the subject with Sir Langham Dale and also with 
 Father Simeon, who takes great interest in the matter, and he told me that 
 he thought the reasf)n why the conditions were not made more use of, was, 
 that among the humbler classes they did not know the advantages ; and he 
 suggested that somebody should go round from place to place and point out 
 the advantages. Sir Langham Dale thinks that a very good suggestion, but 
 his difficulty is that there is no Inspector that he can spare for the purpose. 
 It requires some one who is conversant with the general rules of the Education 
 Department. Father Simeon thought that if a suitable officer could be found, 
 he should go from place to place along the railway and explain to the parents 
 the advantages held out by this circular. He thought if that was done we
 
 47 
 
 should have several new schools springing up in accordance with the <^- *• ■^""'''> '-'"/■• 
 
 regulations laid down. I do not think, however, that the system has been - ' 
 
 sufficiently long in operation to gauge its effect. ^'^^- ^^'"•^> "*'■•' 
 
 402. Have you anything further to say upon that poiut ? — No ; that is 
 the only suggestion that I have to make, that when a suitable officer can be 
 found, he should be deputed to go along the line and explain at the different 
 centres what the advantages are, with a view to the formation of a few more 
 schools. I may say that I have explained, when the question has been 
 raised, that we are not supposed to limit the use of these schools to railway 
 employes. Any other children whose parents wish to avail themselves of the 
 advantages, can do so, and this is being done at several stations already. 
 
 403. Have you ever considered the question of the irregularity of the 
 attendance in the town schools ? — I was speaking to Sir Laugham J)ale on 
 that very subject this morning, and he informed me that the average 
 attendance of children throughout the Colony is 74 per cent, of thos(i en- 
 rolled, whereas in England, where there is compulsory education, the per- 
 centage is 78 per cent. The difference is so small that one imagines there is 
 really not so great a difference as many person^ would suppose. 
 
 404. Then would you advise resort being made in towns to anything 
 like compulsory attendance ? — I thought that matter over some fourteen or 
 fifteen years ago, when I was acting for the Superintendent-General of 
 Education, and after consideration, I made up my mind that it was not 
 necessary at the present stage, to insist upon compulsory education, uidess 
 you have all the facilities for education. It would not be fair to jjaronts to 
 insist upon their sending their children to school, unless you furnish a school 
 within reach, and within reasonable limits as regards cost. Therefore, in 
 framing my draft Education Bill, I left out the provision with regard to 
 compulsory education altogether. Whether the circumstances of the Colony 
 have changed since then or not to a sufficient degree, I am not prepared to 
 say on the spur of the moment, but my impression is, that it is hardly 
 desirable to have a compulsory clause. 1 think it would be very distasteful, 
 to the farming population especially. In towns, of course, it would be much 
 
 . easier to insist upon it, but I really doubt whether it is necessary. As a rule, 
 parents fully appreciate the necessity of having their children educated, and 
 I fancy in large towns there are very few respectable people who do not send 
 their children to some school or another ; so that I have some doubt whether 
 it is really necessary to have a compulsory clause ; certainly in the country 
 I think it would be undesirable. The difficulties in the way of sending 
 children to school at present are so great that it would be cruel to insist upon 
 every parent sending his children to school. 
 
 405. If compulsory attendance is enforced, would not the number of 
 children on the roll be greater than if it was not enforced ? — Certainly. 
 
 406. If compulsory attendance was resi-rted to, what suggestion would 
 you make for working such a system ? — I suppose there would have to be 
 Government Inspectors, who would see that no children were loitering about 
 the streets ; that would be one necessity, but if sending children to school 
 were compulsory, I certainly think it should be binding upon the Govern- 
 ment to put it within every parent's power to send a child to school without 
 its being an unnecessary burden upon his purse. 
 
 407. Clieap education ? — Yes ; and yet good education. There must be 
 a very distinct advantage offered to parents before they could be reconciled to 
 any system of compulsory education. 
 
 408. Have you seen Sir Langham Dale's suggestion witii regard to the 
 establishment of fourth class undenominational schools ? — 1 do not think I 
 have. 
 
 409. Sir Langham Dale says that the mission schools were originally in- 
 tended for the blacks, but the white children have come in, and he wishes to 
 have a school for these poor white children ; take them out of the mission school
 
 Fob. 23rd, 1891 
 
 48 
 
 '^"^' llb'"'^'*' and put them into another school, that is, the fourtli class undenominational 
 school, so as to leave the Mission Schools free for the blacks only. It is 
 merely a proposal, it is not carried out yet ? — I might say generally, that 
 Sir Langham Pale has given so much time, thought, and attention, to this 
 subject, that nobody is better qualified to express an opinion, hence very 
 great weight should be attached to his recommendations. 
 
 410. How would \ ou make a distinction between these two classes of 
 scholars ? — It would simply be by having distinct schools, 
 
 411. Rev. Moorrees.'] "Would you leave the management of those new 
 schools to tlie church bodies ? — If the church bodies will undertake it. 
 
 412. You mean they must be denominational schools? — I take it that 
 every church encourages schools of the kind, and it would cost less to the 
 Government to aid such schools than to have strictly undenominational 
 schools. Where you have the machinery, it is simpler to make use of that 
 machinery, and aid it, than have a new system entirely ; but I would say 
 that if the Government aided such schools, there would have to be a condi- 
 tion that any parent who wished his children not to have a distinct religious 
 education in that school, should be relieved of any liability to attend during 
 religious instruction. Of course you may say that religious training consists 
 of two parts ; the direct religious training, which can be confined to an hour 
 or half an hour, as the case may be, and then the indirect religious training, 
 which goes ou all the day, and no ])arent could expect to lose the effect of that 
 indirect training. I take it that the Government would only insist upon the 
 conscience clause with regard to direct religious education ; the indirect train- 
 ing would go on all through the day, except in connection with subjects 
 such as mathematics or some branches of phj'sical science. 
 
 413. Dean IIolmes.~\ Would it not be rather moral than religious instruc- 
 tion that was going on all the day? — I believe that indirectly a man cannot 
 help imparting his own religious belief to what he teaches all through the 
 day, especially in some branches. Take history, for instance ; he cannot help 
 bringing out his own views in whatever education he is imparting. I say 
 that there are some subjects like mathematics and some branches of physical 
 science where religious training could not be brought in at all, but there are 
 a great many subjects in which religious education is practically introduced 
 in the ordinary subjects of life. 
 
 414. Suppose this additional accommodation is provided, so as to separate 
 the whites out of the mission schools, in that case, would you lay down a 
 rule that no black child is to attend the white school, or no white attend the 
 black school ? — I take it that where the Government provided both classes of 
 schools, a rule of that kind would have to be made, otherwise it would make 
 it very invidious for a teacher to say to a child, I cannot admit you. But if 
 the Government decided to support two schools, recognizing colour as a ground 
 of admission, then the teacher would be compelled to say, I ani very sorry but 
 I cannot admit you, whether white or black, I am only here to teach white or 
 black children, as the case may be. But where that provision is not made, then 
 I think it should be left to the local managers, whoever they may be, to decide. 
 
 415. Mr. Rotvan.'] The difficulty would be where to draw the line, 
 would it not ? — Yes. 
 
 416. President.'] IIow would you draw the line between the whites and 
 half-castes? — I think it would have to be left somewhat to the managers to 
 decide who really were white and who were black. 
 
 417. 3Ir. Theron.~\ In case you did not lay down any rule as to dis- 
 tinction of colour, then by providing additional school accommodation you 
 would simply be moving children from one school to tl;e other, because all 
 the better-class natives would send their children to that school where they 
 recciA'^ed the best instruction, so that this new school would not help you to 
 divide the classes, would it? — You would require double buildings, and the 
 whole school paraphernalia, if you determined to separate the classes.
 
 49 
 
 418. President.'] It has been suggested that the manager should have <^•^•£^'''^'•^'y•• 
 the power to exclude, without assigning any cause ; that there should be — ' 
 two schools, one a sort of free school, into which anybody can go, and then^''*- ^*'"'^' '*"• 
 an upper school, where the managers have power to exclude, without assign- 
 ing any cause, for the whites or the best class of blacks, because I take it 
 
 that a half coloured boy is very often fur ahead of a white boy. His habits 
 may be cleanly, and so on. Tou would not exclude him ; and if you gave 
 that laxity, that would really fit in with the Free State suggestion, would it 
 not ? — Yes ; it is not a bad suggestion. At the South African College 
 occasionally they have a coloured boy — not very often. 
 
 419. Dr. Berry.'] It has been stated that there are 2,500 children in 
 the mission schools in Cape Town, and that by a judicious redistribution 
 of the pupils attending those mission schools, it is possible that the 
 addition of five undenominational schools of the fourth class would meet 
 their wants. In addition to that, it has been said that the religious bodies 
 have neither the money to expand the system nor the power to compel 
 attendance ; do you not think, under all those circumstances, that it would 
 be better if the education of all these poorer children were undertaken by 
 the State, instead of its being left in the hands of religious bodies ? — That is 
 a very difficult question to decide. I suppose that most religious bodies feel 
 they are responsible for the training of children, and they would 
 naturally do all in their power to further that object. On the other hand, 
 the Government is responsible also. If the Government undertakes it in a 
 pure and simple way, it naturally says, we must adopt the undenominational 
 system, but the nwdus Vivendi I should fancy in that case would be that the 
 denominations should be assisted. The Government does not decide which 
 is the right denomination, but it says, as loug as we see the denominations 
 giving a good education to their children, we shall assist them, provided 
 there is a conscience clause in regard to religious teaching. 
 
 420. President.] Do you think the last is preferable to the first, volun- 
 tary schools, with the " conscience clause," or State schools ? — 1 think you 
 often get more heart and enthusiasm into the matter if the religious bodies 
 take the matter in hand. 
 
 421. Dr. Berry.] We have had it in evidence that these religious 
 bodies take children who do not belong to their own sect, is that so in your 
 experience ? — I expect it is so very often. You find, as a rule, that it is the 
 teacher himself who attracts scholars, whatever denomination he may belong 
 to ; if he has a facility for imparting education of a certain kind, you find 
 that his school will go on and increase in size. It is the same ic the higher 
 branches ; a good teacher, wherever he may be, will attract scholars. You 
 may remember how the late Mr. Templeton used to attract scholars wherever 
 he went, so great was his faculty for teaching. 
 
 422. "Would not that state of things rather favour the Government 
 taking up these schools. If you have these excellent men as teachers, would 
 not there be likely to be more scope for exercising their power under a 
 Government system than under a sectarian system. ^^ ould not we all rather 
 work under the Government of the country than under a more seot of the 
 people ? — There are many, I think, who would, and others who would not ; 
 I think it would depend upon the individual choice of the parents as a rule. 
 There are some parents who would not like to have their children sent to a 
 place where they could not receive a distinct religious education ; others, 
 again, would go to the other extreme, and like their children to receive no 
 religious education at all. I do not think there are many of that latter class 
 in the Colony, but I know there are some. 
 
 423. Still, you thoroughly believe in the personality of the teacher ? — 
 Yes ; very much in keeping up a school. The reason why so many schools 
 have failed has been because the teacher himself has been a failure.
 
 50 
 
 ^' *■ llb'"*'*' "^-^ '• '^^^^ would be tlic case whether he belonged to a religious body or 
 
 — -" ■ was uudvv niivcrninent ? — Yos ; a man's gift makes room for him. 
 
 Feb. 23r.i, 1891. ^25. President.'] You are aware that in England formerly, elementary 
 
 education was given thrc _;h voluntary bodies, and in 1870 Board Schools 
 were established : have you considered whether we could apply some princi- 
 ple of that kind here ? — In 187G I drafted a Bill and sent it to the Govern- 
 ment, but I am sorry to say it has been lost ; and, unfortunately, I did not 
 keep a copy. At that time my idea was this, that the Colony should be 
 divided into districts, corresponding with the Divisional Council districts ; 
 but, with a view to save expense, I proposed that the collection of the 
 educational rates should bo entrusted to the Divisional Councils, whose 
 duties in that respect should be merely routine. The Education Council 
 should report to the Divisional Council that a certain rate had been decided 
 upon, and then the Divisional Council should be bound to collect that rate 
 for the Educational Board of each district. It is a good many years since I 
 drafted my Bill, and I do not remember all its provisions, but the Education 
 Commission which sat in 1879 made a recommendation very much on the 
 same lines that I suggested a few years previously. I think my Bill consisted 
 of 60 or 80 clauses, and it would take some time to reproduce it. 
 
 426. Were you examined before the Commission of 1879 ? — No. 
 
 427. How would you constitute the Board which would direct the 
 Divisional Council to collect the rates ? — It should be elected just as the 
 Divisional Councils are elected. 
 
 428. But then it would only be a repetition of the Divisional Council, 
 would it not ? — No ; you would put different men on. A man who is elected 
 member of the Divisional Council is generally supposed to take an interest 
 in roads and things of that kind. You would select men naturally who 
 would take an interest in the subject of education. There would be the same 
 electors in both cases. I forget how I provided for the Government repre- 
 sentation, but I proposed that the Government should contribute on the £ 
 for £ principle, both for teachers and buildings, and of course the Government 
 should be represented, as it is a coatributor. 
 
 429. It has been suggested that the Education Board should consist of 
 two members nominated by the Government, two selected by the Divisional 
 Council, and two by the Municipality. Would that answer ? — If the mem- 
 bers were selected with a view to education, you might get good men. 
 
 4-30. Dr. Berry.'] Did your Bill provide for the limitation of the amount 
 of the fees payable in the school, or for the limitation of the amount of the 
 Government grant? — I think, if I remember rightly, each board waste settle 
 details of that kind ; the Government was to contribute on the £ for £ 
 principle. There was a limit to the Education rate to be levied, but I forget 
 the exact amount. 
 
 431. President.] Was there no limit fixed as to the fees ? — No. 
 
 432. Might not an elective body fix the fees high, so as to make the 
 school pay ? — I think I left that matter to each local Board. 
 
 433. Dr. Berry.] Was the Government grant on the £ for £ principle 
 to equal the amount of the local rate and the fees combined ? — I am not 
 quite certain. It is so many years since I drafted the Bill, that I cannot 
 charge my memory with that point. 
 
 434. Rev. Coetzee.] What were the objections urged against your Bill 
 at the time ? — There was a difference of opinion between the members of the 
 Government. 
 
 435. It did not come before Parliament? — No. 
 
 436. President.] Do you think the present sj^stem of guarantors is 
 sound, or would you substitute for it the principle of election ; let the voters 
 select the Board instead of as it is now ? — My proposal would have got oyer 
 that difficulty.
 
 51 
 
 437. You do not think the present system quite fair, do you ; it throws fB.t:iiioii,E,j., 
 all the burden on a few? — Certainly. Of course the Government must have — ' 
 some guarantee. The Education Department has to look to anybody who ^^^- '^^^' '*"'■ 
 will give the guarantee. 
 
 438. Dean Holmes.'] Then you are distinctly in favour of a School 
 Board ? — Yes. 
 
 439. President.] What steps do you think should be taken to give 
 Boards perpetual succession ? — An Act of Parliament would have to be 
 passed for the pui-pose. 
 
 440. In what form would you give this perpetual succession. Can you 
 refer to any existing law which would apply ? — There would have simply to 
 be a clause to the effect that all property hitherto vested in so and so, or 
 hereafter to he acquired by such Board, should from and after such a date 
 be vested in the Board that had the management of the school. Of cour.se 
 under the present system it is hardly safe to do that, because the Board is so 
 ephemeral, there is nothing permanent about it. Very often those who give 
 the guarantee leave the district. It depends a good deal upon tlie go<jd 
 will that exists between the guarantors. 
 
 441. What becomes of any property now ? — It depends upon the person 
 in whose favor the transfer is made ; upon the particular grant or transfer 
 that has been made. For instance, there is the School of Industry at Wyn- 
 berg, which is vested in the Magistrate and two persons to be elected from 
 time to time by subscribers. As a matter of fact, there have been no sub- 
 scribers lately, and the consequence is, that they will have to resort to a 
 mock subscription, I suppose, so as to get the machinery for electing two 
 trustees. That is one case. I am not quite certain whether I did not at one 
 time suggest that for all schools supported by Goverumeitt, the Superinten- 
 dent-General of Education should be the person, in whose favor all these 
 grants should be made. 
 
 442. The Superintendent-General of Education alone ? — Yes. I think 
 I provided for that in my Bill. I am not quite certain. If you have a Board 
 formally recognized, with liabilities, then of course you can entrust the 
 transfer of property to such a Board. 
 
 443. Your Bill provided for the election of this Board by the rate- 
 payers ? — Yes. 
 
 444. And one Board for each district? — Tes. And they could have 
 many schools throughout the district. 
 
 445. Dr. Berry.~\ Was it proposed to have the school tax on property 
 only ?— Yes. 
 
 446. Rev. Moorrees.] If you allow all the ratepayers to elect, is there 
 not a danger of too much economy being practised ? — There is that danger 
 I fully admit, just as you sometimes see voters getting their candidates to 
 promise that no great improvements shall go on in a municipality. There is 
 the same difficulty. 
 
 447. President.] How would you remedy that ? — They really punish 
 themselves. 
 
 448. In England they remedy it in this way. If there is not a proper 
 school in a certain place, the Government can step in and order that there 
 shall be one, and then that school is constituted and worked at the expense 
 of the district. How would you deal with teachers. Would you let the 
 Board of Managers have the sole control of the teachers? — I take it that the 
 Education Department always reserves its control. It is very seldom that it 
 withholds its approval, but if sufficient cause existed, it would be justified 
 in doing so, because Government funds are involved to so large an extent. 
 
 449. What provision has been made in the schools with which you are 
 acquainted in regard to the teachiug of English and Dutch ? — I have not 
 followed that subject very closely. Some schools have special teachers for 
 
 [G. 0— '91.] H
 
 52 
 
 c.B.snioii.Etj, ^]^^ suhject, and then in the mission schools, a considerable part of the 
 — ' education goes on in Dutch. It depends upon the school itself. There are 
 Feb. 23rd, 1891. ^^^ missiou schools at Zuurbruak and Saron. 
 
 450. Do they teach exclusively in Dutch there ? — Not exclusively, but 
 very largely. At least they used to. 
 
 451. Do you think that in any of the schools they should be allowed to teach 
 only in one language ? — I think it would depend upon local circumstances. 
 If you send a lot of colored children to school in the country (not in Cape 
 Town) all that is required for them is really to know the three R's, and 
 whether they are taught in Dutch or English does not matter very much, 
 but as you come up higher ia the scale, then it is desirable to have English 
 as the basis, I should say, with Dutch as a co-ordinate subject, although 
 there, when you come to farmers' schools, where the farmers' children are 
 not expected to stay at school a long time, it would be hard in such cases to 
 insist upon their learning two languages ; it would be almost impossible. 
 
 452. Where children are only for a limited time at school, and they 
 speak Dutch, you think they might be allowed to be taught in Dutch ? — 
 Yes ; if they are only to stay for a limited time. At the same time, I think 
 for their own sakes they should have an opportunity of learning English, as 
 it is the language that is required in commerce. 
 
 453. Rev. Coeizee.'] You would not make English compulsory, would 
 you ? — It would depend upon the class of school. If it was purely a farmer's 
 school, I do not think I would make it compulsory. If it was the parent's 
 wish that the child should be only taught a few months to be able to learn the 
 three R's so-called, I would not insist upon it, but I think the child would 
 be the loser in the long run. I would certainly give children the facility for 
 learning English. If the parent insisted upon a child not learning the 
 language, I would not insist upon it. You cannot force these matters. 
 
 454. President.'] How are you to work it ? Suppose the case of a school 
 where there are a good many Dutch and a few English, how would you 
 teach them? Suppose the parents say we insist upon Dutch, then the same 
 difficulty arises with regard to the English cliildren, does it not ? — The 
 practical difficulty is to get teachers who teach the Dutch language properly. 
 That is the difficulty I see. Dutch is not sufficiently understood by the 
 bulk of the teachers. 
 
 455. Mr. Theron.'] Suppose you have got a certain number of children 
 in a Dutch village or an English village, but their time for school purposes 
 is limited to twelve months, in which language would the children benefit 
 the most in a given time, in their own or a foreign language ? — Very few 
 children could learn a new language in a year's time ; but if the teacher was 
 competent, probably he would be able to instruct better in the language the 
 children understood than in a foreign language ; but I think if the Govern- 
 ment takes the matter in hand, if it is Government education, then certainly 
 I think facility should be given for teaching English. In the case of these 
 farmers' children there should also be facility for teaching them Dutch, other- 
 wise they would not be able to write a letter in their own tongue. 
 
 450. But if children are at school only for a given time and cannot stay 
 longer, which of the two languages would they profit most by, their own or 
 a foreign language ? — Probably by their own, but theu if the Commission 
 wishes to recommend the introduction of compulsory education, I should say 
 that one year is not enough. You should extend the period of education 
 over a longer time, and then you give children the advantage of learning 
 both languages, because I feel sure that it is for the children's own benefit, 
 as well as for the benefit of the Government itself, that they should know 
 the English language, which is the language of commerce. 
 
 457. But if you have to instruct children in the three R's in a given 
 time, you hold that it is better to instruct them in their own language than
 
 53 
 
 in a foreign language ? — Certainly. If they are only to be at school say for a ^- s.iiHoii.Sii., 
 year, it would be better. ' ' 
 
 458. Rev. Moorrees.] What do you consider is the best way to impart^®''* ^^^ ^^^^' 
 teaching to a young child to begjin with, through its mother tongue or through 
 
 a foreign tongue ? — The mother tongue. 
 
 459. So that infant children of Dutch parentage would learn everything 
 sooner if the first tuition was given in the mother tongue ? — Certainly. 
 
 460. Sir Langham Dale has told us he finds that where we try to 
 advance the study of Dutch, we at the same time advance the study of 
 English ; that if you promote the study of Dutch, the children will be better 
 able to learn English. Do you agree with that ? — I think if they were 
 thrown in with English people, they would naturally wish to pick up that 
 language ; if they are entirely divorced from English people, it would not 
 occur to them, and they would not know anything about it. They would 
 try to make themselves understood in the language of their own playmates. 
 
 461. If a child is properly instructed in Dutch, so that its mind is 
 expanded, would not that in itself lead the child to try and acquire the 
 English language ? — Sometimes it is a question of sentiment ; the national 
 sentiment comes in. If a parent brings up his child to believe that there is 
 an antagonism between the two races, he will naturally not care to know the 
 other language, but if he is thrown among others who speak a different 
 language, then he would naturally wish to learn that language. It is only 
 where sentiment comes in that anyone would object to learn either language. 
 An Englishman would learn Dutch if he thought it was necessary for hmi 
 to get through the Colony, and, on the other hand, the Dutch-speaking 
 population would like to learn English because it is the language of com- 
 merce. As a Dutch farmer once said, " I cannot get on without it." 
 
 462. My experience has been this, that if a child gets some amount of 
 knowledge, let it be in whatever language, it naturally seeks to acquire more 
 knowledge ; and in a Colony like this, if a child knows one language, he 
 must see that it is for his advantage to learn the other also. All children 
 have not a desire for learning. Among the majority of children it has to be 
 pressed upon them, either by the teacher or the parents. If the children 
 were left to themselves, they would not trouble much about their lessons. 
 It must depend either upon the teacher or the parents, the parents primarily 
 and the teachers secondarily, because if the parents do not encourage their 
 children to go to school, or to take up certain subjects, they will naturally 
 lag behind and not care lo icmij uivie than they are compelled to learn, so 
 that must be a certain amount of compulsion either on the part of the teacher 
 or the parents. 
 
 463. Does not the knowledge of one language facilitate the acquiring 
 of another ? — Most certainly. You will always find that. 
 
 464. Dr Berry.'] Are you a member of the University Council ? — I 
 was. I am not now. I resigned some years ago. 
 
 465. In your opinion, is it advisable to make Dutch compulsory in the 
 Elementary examination ? — I do not think it is a compulsory subject in the 
 Elementary examination. 
 
 466. This Commission is asked to find out what further facilities can 
 be afforded for giving instruction in both the English and Dutch languages, 
 and in how far that object can be attained through the medium of the 
 Elementary and other examinations. Have you any suggestion to make on 
 that. Has everything been done that can be done in connection with these 
 examinations ? — I have no doubt that if Dutch were given as a compulsory 
 subject, it would be the means of encouraging the study of the language. 
 
 467. In any examination you mean ? — Yes ; any examination recog- 
 nised by the University or the Government. Anything that the University 
 or the Government insists upon, encourages that particular branch of study. 
 
 H 2.
 
 64 
 
 ^' *-£l'b''^'* ' '^^^' ^^"^ Holmes.'] But would it not have the efEect of diminish- 
 
 — ' ing the number of candidates ? — Possibly ; and possibly it might also have 
 
 Job. 23r<i, 1891 j.j^g effect of making the knowledge of other subjects less accurate. It moans 
 a new subject altogether, and of course if you have a new subject to acquire, 
 it takes so much time from the ordinary hours of study ; and, therefore, 
 unless you have a judicious teacher, it may be a case of learning multa, but 
 not multum ; many things, not much. 
 
 469. Mr. Roivan.'] In Mauritius, where they have also this bi-lingual 
 difficulty, they have two sets of examinations — in French and English — and 
 the same marks are given. Papers are drawn up in both languages ; ques- 
 tions are given in English on English history, and questions in French on 
 French history ; but the same marks are given ? — Those who have had any 
 experience in examining work know how difficult it is to compare results in 
 one subject with those in another. It is one of the difficulties in connection 
 with the University, and the tendency is rather to increase than to diminish 
 the number of such subjects. It is impossible really to compare the results 
 of examinations in diffVrent languages. It may be a little easier if you have 
 the same subjects, but even there it depends upon the individual examiner. 
 Probably the examiner in Dutch would not be examiner in French. For one 
 year you may have a stiff examiner in Dutch or an easy examiner in French, 
 or vice verna, and often candidates who have taken up a particular subject are 
 at a disadvantage. It is the same with all candidates who choose optional sub- 
 jects. It depends not only upon the questions that are put, but upon the 
 individual view that each examiner takes of the j)aper he is examining. It is 
 a very troublesome subject to deal with, to apportion the same amount of 
 difficulty to each paper where you have different subjects. I do not think it 
 applies so much to foreign languages — although it does to a certain extent 
 — as to wholly dissimilar subjects. 
 
 470. Dr. Berry. ~\ It has been' stated in evidence by one who ought to 
 know, that Colonial youths are not likely to supply the want of teachers 
 which is felt here. If that is so, what is likely to be the effect of a clause 
 which provides tliat examination in the Dutch language shall be compulsory 
 for those who apply for the third class teacher's certificate ? — I think there 
 is a great deal of ungrammatical Dutch spoken and taught in different parts 
 of the Colony. I think the subject of genders alone is a very difficult one in 
 Dutch, and very few know their genders perfectly I believe. Very well 
 educated men oft&n make mistakes in Dutt;h genders. I think any Dutch 
 minister will confirm me in that. 
 
 471. I was looking more to the effect on the supply of teachers. Will 
 it not tend to reduce the supply of teachers, if you make this condition about 
 Dutch y Sir Langham Dale says, you can find female teachers, but not male 
 teachers, they have better prospects. If you burden the teacher's certificate 
 witli the condition that they must learn Dutch, would not the supply bo still 
 more reduced ? — I think it is very likely. 
 
 472. Mr. Theron.'] Has the compulsory, examination in Dutch for the 
 Civil Service reduced the number of candidates ? — No. 
 
 473. Rev. Coetzee.'] What in your opinion is the reason why Colonists do 
 not like the profession of teachers ? — I think it is a good deal a matter of 
 history. A good many years ago, the average farm teacher was very often a 
 retired private from the soldier's ranks, and the consequence was that the 
 farmers had not that respect for teachers that should exist. There was very 
 often a low class of teachers, and I think the memory of that has been 
 ingrained in the colonial mind, and it will be some years before the idea is 
 root I'd out. The consequence is, that you find the profession of teacher is not 
 so eagerly sought after as it might be. I think it will depend a good deal 
 upon the inducements offered to teachers. If you make their salaries com- 
 mensurate with the importance of their functions, you will find the difficulty 
 gradually removed ; but there is no doubt that the class of teachers scattered
 
 55 
 
 through the Colony a good many years ago, was of a very inferior description. ^- *■ ^"'»".^»?-. 
 ImproviEg the status of teachers would, I believe, increa^jc tlr; demand. — _' 
 
 474. And induce Colonists to go in for the profession ? — Yes ; I think so. ^"^^ -^^ ^*'"- 
 
 475. President.'] Does not the fact that the farmers employed these 
 meesters show that even at that time they wanted their children to learn 
 English ? — I think so. There is a great desire on the part of farmers as a 
 rule, to learn English. Only two years ago, I was travelling with Sir Gordon 
 Sprigg through the Free State. We got to a farm, and the farmer himself 
 could not speak English, but he had a governess who taught it, and for 
 certain hours of the day it was his wish that his children should be punished 
 if they did not speak the English language. He explained to Sir Gordon 
 Sprigg that they could not " klaar kom " unless they knew the English 
 language. 
 
 476. 3Ir. Theron.'] Would you take that as the general rule or the 
 exception ? — I only mention it to show the desire there is to learn the English 
 language. 
 
 477. As to these ineesters, could any other instructors have been got at 
 the time you refer to ? — I expect not. These men very often were runaways 
 from their regiment. They were intelligent men, some of them, and the 
 farmers took them in. I do not mention this to show that the Dutch farmers 
 do not want their children to be taught Dutch, but to show that they want 
 them to be taught English also. 
 
 478. President.'] At that time could you have got men tu teach this 
 Elementary Dutch ? — I do not think so. 
 
 479. Rev. Moorrees.] Does a desire to promote the study of the Dutch 
 language necessarily in your opinion imply a desire to neglect the study of 
 English? — No. 1 myself have been learning Dutch for the last couple of 
 years, except the last few months. 
 
 480. Nor vice versa ? — No. 
 
 481. Dean Holmes.] How many of the station schools you referred to are 
 already in existence, under the circular you produced ? — Only six have been 
 started under the new circular : at Cyphergat, on the East London line ; 
 Klipplaat, on the Graaff-Eeinet line ; Burghersdorp, Glen Connor, Tylden, 
 Sandflats, and Middleton. But then, there are a great many other schools 
 where the children of railway servants receive education. Alicedale for 
 instance. To iws Kiver, De Aar, Laingsburg, and Toise River ; thirty places 
 I suppose ctiiogether. 
 
 482. Are they undenominational schools ? — Most of them are. Those 
 I mentioned first are under the new circular. We hope that more will be 
 established as tlie system becomes better known. 
 
 483. What facilities does the Eailway Department offer for children 
 residing at a distance from the stations ; do they travel free ? — We allow them 
 to travel free by train to the nearest available school. 
 
 4»4. Suppose there is no train ?— Then we cannot do anything. 
 
 485. Do you let them go on a trolly ? — No. We are rather averse to 
 that, because there have been several accidents in connection with trollies. 
 The children are apt to be careless, and their clothes might get caught in the 
 wheels, and so on. 
 
 486. Mr. Theron.] But the children travel free ? — Yes, where there are 
 no facilities in the neighbourhood. 
 
 487. Dean Holmes.] Have you had any negotiation with any boarding 
 schools in any way for the benefit of tliese children ? — I have had several 
 applications. There was one from Father fc^imeon and one from Dr. Vanes, of 
 Uitenhage, who took a great interest in the snbject some time ago. He took 
 advantage of a trip which the District Engineer was making, and went to 
 every platelayer's cottage, between Zwaartkops River and Wolvefontein, a 
 distance of 70 or SO miles on the Midland line, and he took dowu the names of 
 every employ^, the number of children, and what the parents were prepared
 
 56 
 
 ^- ' fH''^'^"^' to contl■ibut«^ I may say tliat this was before the present system was brought 
 — - into operation. Sir Langhaiii Dale promised substantial assistance in the way 
 
 Feb. 23rd, 1891. ^f ^ teacher ami an assistant toaciior, who would have a boarding school at 
 TJitenhage, for the benetit of these railway children ; but nothing came of it. 
 I do not know how it was, whether interest was lost in the subject or not. 
 Then Father Simeon, after this, oflEered to take a number of children into the 
 St. Peter's School. After consulting with Sir Langham Dale on the subject, 
 there was a promise to try a grant in aid for so many children to be taken in, 
 subject to certain conditions. I forget exactly what they were, but I think 
 Ihis particular school was looked upon rather iu the light of a reformatory or 
 charity school, and Sir Langham Dale thought the parents would not like this : 
 a certain uniform was hinted at as being required among other things. The 
 proposal Avas, that a limited number of pupils should be sent, and the Govern- 
 ment would contribute so much a year for 12 pupils, if they were maintained 
 at one of these boarding establishments. At Uitenhage the idea was, that there 
 should be a master and an assistant teacher, who might be the matron, but 
 somehow or other, from the question of expense or lack of interest, the thing 
 hung fire, and practically nothing has been done ; but Sir Langham Dale and 
 myself both think that this last system will lead to something. 
 
 488. Dr. Berr//.'] Has anything been done in the way of giving 
 technical education to children along the line ? — I gave permission to Dr. 
 Vanes some little time ago to take a class he had formed to the Uitenhage 
 workshops, with a view to the pupils acquiring a little technical instruction. 
 Some few years ago. Sir Langham Dale propounded a scheme, and he consulted 
 me in the matter. It was a scheme rather for the better class of young men. 
 He proposed that Engineering Cadets should be appointed, and I arranged 
 with him that if the scheme were carried through by the Government, I should 
 let the selected candidates, provided they passed a certain examination, go to 
 the workshops at Salt River, or Uitenhage, or East London, and receive 
 technical education there for a certain term. That was with a view to encourage 
 the training of engineers. I might say that in one case we took in a farmer's 
 son. A farmer in the Malmesbury District wanted his son trained just 
 sufficiently so that he might be able to repair machinery. We had him for a 
 year at the Salt River workshops, and we have had altogether, I should say, 
 a dozen pupils of different kinds. Apprentices of the ordinary ranks are 
 generally the sons of our employes themselves, who can keep an eye upon the 
 young fellows, but we have had about a dozen students, gentlemen's sons, who 
 have gone through the workshops. "We have far more applications than we can 
 find room for. We have to refuse applications every week, there are so many. 
 
 489. Could not something be done to develope that system ? The country 
 wants technical Education for its young men ? — I have often thought that it 
 would be very desirable to have a kind of technical school, and I should be 
 quite prepared to consider it in connection with our workshops. But at pre- 
 sent we work them entirely from a railway point of view, and the whole 
 system would have to be carefully considered if we were to convert them 
 into teclinical schools. 
 
 400. The Railway Department has the greatest facilities for it, has it 
 not ? — Yes, certainly. The system of Engineering Cadets was proposed 
 some few years ago, but that of course would be for educated young men 
 who have passed, say, the matriculation examination ; but we have far more 
 applications than we can possibly provide for. 
 
 49 L Where do you get your engine-drivers, fitters, and artisans from ? 
 — We train many of them, csometimes we have to impwft them. We have 
 drained a great many. 
 
 492. Are those whom you have trained the sons of employees ? — Yes ; 
 very often they are the sons of old employes. 
 
 493. Are they as good as those you get from the mother country ? — • 
 They turn out very well. We have had a large number of apprentices,
 
 57 
 
 494. Does that scheme require any developing at all, or any fostering? C- b. Einoa,E>q., 
 — I do not think there is anything wanting in that way, because the supply ia — 
 really larger than the demand. Almost every week we have to refuse ^'^- '^^^' "*'''• 
 applications. 
 
 495. But the supply for the whole country is not so large as the 
 demand, is it ? — Of course if the Railway Department is to be an industrial 
 institution, then we should have to consider how we could work it in. It 
 would require some consideration. At present we only work it with a view 
 to railway requirements as economically as possible, but if we are to be 
 made an industrial institution as well, then we must consider the whole 
 question and reorganize everything. 
 
 496. Is not the Eailway Department the most suitable nucleus ? — I 
 think to a certain extent it might be, but if it were done on a large scale we 
 should hardly know what to do with everything that was produced, because 
 there would be jealousy on the part of outside artisans. They would complain 
 that Government was taking the bread out of their mouth. We never do work 
 for outsiders unless such work cannot be done locally. If a mechanical 
 engineer, for instance, comes and says he cannot possibly get certain work done 
 in Cape Town or Port Elizabeth, as the case may be, then we do it for him, 
 but otherwise we always refuse and say we do not want to interfere with private 
 enterprise. If Government wants us to undertake industrial training, it is a 
 question that will have to be very carefully considered. Of course we have 
 all the facilities for it. 
 
 497. Mr. Theron.'] As far as education along the line is coneeriied, you 
 do not think that any improvement can be effected ? — I think we must wait 
 to see the result of this new circular. 
 
 498. President.] Have you anything further to suggest on the subject 
 of educatiou ? — 1 may say that I think in some cases we have rather a loss of 
 labour. I think our present teaching staff could do more if there was more 
 centralization. I understand that in Canada there is a system somewhat of 
 this kind adopted. There is a large block of buildings in connection with 
 the University, and provision is made for the principal denominations, and 
 there are boarding schools in connection with these buildings. Within their 
 walls they can do as they please, and teach whatever they like. They can 
 give whatever religious instruction they please, and make their own internal 
 rules ; but there are also other buildings in the same block where certain 
 subjects are taught. Take mathematics, for instance ; there is one mathe- 
 matical professor who will teach boys from all these boarding schools, and so 
 with other subjects. They can have their own peculiar training within their 
 own walls, but the University buildings are provided for teaching certain 
 subjects common to all, mathematics, physical science, Latin, Greek, or 
 whatever it may be. I have often thought if there were accommodation of 
 that kind here, we should be able to get great advantagas from a Government 
 point of view ; there would be more centralization, and I believe you would 
 get the best teachers and professors, while each denomination would do as it 
 pleased within its own walls. That is the only suggestion I have to make. 
 
 499. Mr. Roivan.'] Are you speaking of higher education? — Yes. 
 
 500. Would you apply your remarks to our ordinary tirst class schools ? 
 — It might be applied with advantage to them also perhaps. It would 
 depend upon the number of boys and the number of schools. There may be 
 a town where there is a waste of labour ; the schools are not sufficiently large 
 for a good staff of teachers, If they were to combine, and let each denomi- 
 nation teach its own religious views within its own walls, the boys, at certain 
 hours of the day, could go to adjoining rooms for training in secular subjects. 
 You would by this means get very much more for your money than you do now. 
 
 501. Take the Cape Peninsula, you have the South African College, tho 
 South African College School, and the Diocesan College, with two or three
 
 58 
 
 c. B. moit.Ssq., private schools giving a high class education; would you have one professor 
 _' of mathematics say to teach all those? — Yes, if they would consent to it. 
 
 F»b. 2;!rd, 1891. r^Q2. And a professor of classics, and so on ; you would not have 
 
 separate professors ? JSo. 
 
 503. President.'] At Graham's Town there is something of the kind, 
 but all the denominutions Avill not join in ? — It depends of course uptm the 
 heads of the schools themselves. It is not a thing that you can force on. 
 There must bo voluntary action on the part of those concerned. I do not 
 think the Government would force anything of the kind. There must bo co- 
 operation on the part of the religious bodies themselves, but 1 think the 
 Government could assist and encourage in every possible way. They could 
 say, here is our skeleton groundwork, and (hey would endeavour to get those 
 concerned lo work to that model, giving every facility in their power. 
 Naturally no church would like to give up its buildings witliout compensation, 
 and there the Government should deal liberally with them, but I think very 
 often it is a question of pounds, shillings and pence, where it is not a matter 
 of religious belief. The question of religion could be kept quite distinct in 
 this way, by letting each denomination have its own teaching within its own 
 walls. I was told by a gentleman who had been to Canada that this was the 
 system adopted there. I do not speak from my own knowledge. 
 
 The Rev. T. F. Lightfoot examined. 
 
 The Rev. 504. President.'] I believe you arc the Ai-chdeacon of the Oape ? — Yes. I am also 
 
 T. F. Lighffiot. Assistant Colonial Chaplain, and in charge specially of mission work within the parish 
 T?»i, otIT hoi of the Cathedral. 
 
 reb. 2Jrd, 1891. ttii i i-i-- 
 
 oOo. Mow long have you been connected with mission work ? — 1 have been con- 
 nected with mission work in St. George's Parish since 1858. 
 
 506. IIow many Cliurch of England mission schools are there in Cape Town ? — 
 St. Paul's, St. John's, St. George's Scliool of Industry, St. Michael's, Holy Trinity, 
 St. Mark's, St. Philip's, St. George's Orphanage Mission, and beyond the municipality, 
 at Woodstock, Salt lliver, and Maitland. 
 
 507. You come into contact with them all ?— Yes, more or less. 
 
 508. How many pupils are there in those schools? — ^There are 2,769 on the 
 books, and the average attendance is 2,025. 
 
 509. Is the attendance at those schools pretty regular ? — No ; I should say decidedly 
 not. 
 
 510. You think this average is not good? — I do not think it is good. I miglit 
 say that many of the schools do not call the roll until some time after the opening of 
 the school, and we have to regret -the want of punctuality as well as the irregularity 
 of attendance. 
 
 511. How in your opinion can this want of punctuality and iiTegularity in 
 attendance be remedied ? — We have been trying to remedy it, and doubtless all the 
 other schools have been trying, by pressing the necessity upon parents, and so bring- 
 ing moral suasion to boar. For a long time, in aU the schools I have been interested in, 
 I have again and again done this, but the fact is that tliis class of children are so very 
 useful to their parents that they take advantage of the slightest excuse to keep them at 
 home. Many of the parents ai-e exceedingly poor. In my own school there is the very 
 lowest class of children, and if they have an opportunity of earning a penny they take 
 advantage of it. Very often of course this becomes au excuse for playing truant. I 
 am quite sure it would be a great advantage if we had an officer appointed in Cape 
 Town, whose duty it should be to look after these children loitering about the streets, 
 gamblin-g and so on. We should bo greatly helped by that means. 
 
 512. Are you in favour of some S3'stem of compulsion? — Certainly, as regards 
 the large towns. 
 
 513. What sort of compulsion would you have in towns ? — My own notion is, 
 that all children up to a eortain age, unless they can show some very good reason to 
 the satisfaction of an appointed official — and there are sometimes doubtless good reasons 
 to be shewn — should bo compelled to attend school. Of course where children are in 
 any empkwment for the benefit of the parents and where their education is attended 
 to, they should be excused, but I want to reach a litrge number of children that you find 
 at the corners of the streets, oftentimes great hulking boys, doi'ag no work, and spend-
 
 '■59 
 
 ing their time in idleness. If you get them to school you at all events get them into ThrRcv. 
 habits of order, decency and propriety, and it would be one great help tewards making ^' ''•_^'?* '/<»<. 
 them useful citizens. Feb. 23rd, I89i. 
 
 514. Would you have this officer a Government officer ? — I think so. You would 
 require more than one. 
 
 515. Paid by the Grovemment and employed in connection with the Education 
 Department ? — Yes. There is another pf)iut, and that is, that if you have a compul- 
 sory Act you must have schools for the Mahommedans. 
 
 516. Those schools you have mentioned, are they all aided mission schools ? — 
 
 517. What is the highest aid in money that you get ? — My school gets £75 a 
 year. 
 
 618. Is that the extreme ? — No, it is not. Special grants are given in some cases 
 when there is an additional department. 
 
 519. Some of the schools get less than that, do they not ? — Some get less. We 
 get £75 a year, if we comply with the Government requirement that there shall be a 
 separate school for the elder children and for infants, and where there is a separate 
 department in which needlework is taught. 
 
 52U. Is needlework taught in most of those schools ? — Yes, in the girls' schools. 
 In some of the schools they get additional grants for pupil teachers, but the schools 
 must have attained a certain standard. 
 
 621. In your district are there Roman Catholics? — Yes. 
 
 522. And Dutch Reformed Church ? — Yes, Within five minutes walk of my 
 school, there are three Dutch Reformed Church schools. We all work together very 
 harmoniously. 
 
 523. As a rule, childi-en stick to their denominations, do they not ? — Yes. 
 
 524. Suppose you had au attendance officer, and he comes across any children in 
 the street, how would he know to which school to take them ? — He would question the 
 child, I suppose. 
 
 525. Suppose the child belongs to no school ? — Then the officer should go to the 
 parents, and they should have the right of deciding to which school the child was to go. 
 
 526. If the truant officer brought a child to you, you would not ask any questions, 
 you would just take it in? — Yes. Government for its own convenience has assigned 
 certain districts to these schools, but we take children from any part. 
 
 527. You would not refuse any child that was brought to you ? — No. 
 
 528. Are the children required to pa3^ fees ? — Yes ; all my children are required 
 to pay fees. The fees are very low to suit tlie low class of children. 
 
 529. What do you do when they do not pay their fees ? — We excuse them, or I 
 pay them myself. 
 
 530. Mr. Eoiran.'j Have you many white children in your school ? — No. 
 
 531. Are there many in the schools you are acquainted with ? — In some of the 
 schools I have mentioned there is a large proportion of white cliildren ; in Holy 
 Trinity and St. Mark's schools and in the School of Industry especial]}'. 
 
 532. Have you still accommodation for additional .scholars in your school ? — In the 
 upper school we have ; not in the infant school. 
 
 533. President. '\ How has that accommodation been provided such as you liave : 
 by the Church? — Entirely by voluntary effort ; the Government has not contributed. 
 
 534. Dean Ev/me-s.'] Do you ever refuse admission to any child ? — Only when 
 they are too young. My daughter is the teacher in the infant scliool, and sometimes 
 they bring two year old children. 
 
 535. You do not exclude on the ground of colour? — No. 
 
 536. Nor on the ground of morality ? — The children are so young that there is no 
 reason to object on that ground, I hope. We liavc never had any cases. 
 
 537. Prem/ent.] Out of the number of 2,769, how many of the children are 
 coloured ? — I should say at least half, more or less. 
 
 538. They are not aborigines, I suppose ? — No ; not purely aborigines ; but repre- 
 sentatives of the veiy mixed classes we liave in Cape Town. There are cases, where 
 Basutos and pure Natives from the frontier man-y Cape girls. 
 
 539. Do you think it is desirable to separate the coloured from the white 
 children ? — In Cape Town I do not think it can be done; there are so many coloured 
 people who really lo^k upon themselves as white, and we must recognise them. 
 
 540. Sir Langham Dale says that it is desirable to draw a line ; and he proposes 
 the fourth class undenominational schools with the idea of having them for the white 
 children, lea^-ing the mission schools for the coloured ehildreu ; do you agree with 
 that ?— I do not see how you can limit it to the purely white. There are cases where 
 a man has married n woman who is a little off-colomxd, and in their family, one child 
 
 [G. 9— "Ji.J I
 
 60 
 
 T J^/^I/' ^'^^ ^^^ after the father and another, by a curious law of reversion, will be more 
 " ' coloured than the mother. I have known many such cases, and it is very difficult to 
 
 Feb. 23rd, 1881. draw a line. At present I ara administering an estate for three children, to whom 
 several hundred pounds have been left. A German married a coloured women at 
 Swellendam, and wliile one child has taken after the father, the other two are much 
 darker than the mother was. In Uape Town I do not think you can draw a line of 
 distinction in the matter of colom-. 
 
 641. Is not tlie effect of having coloured children mixed up with whites 
 prejudicial ? — No ; I do not think it is in Cape Town ; they are so thoroughly mixed 
 together in their daily life. 
 
 542. If this fourth class undenominational school is started, how would you keep 
 the two classes separate and prevent their mixing ? — I do not think you can do it. I 
 should deprecate its being done, I confess. My plan would be to liave higher fees for 
 the childnn of Eiu'o])ean artisans and tlie like, who now go to the mission schools, and 
 avail themselves of advantages oftentimes to the prejudice of the coloured children who 
 are the objects of tlioso schools. There should be tlie test of higher fees, and then there 
 is always a reason for taking only what wo miglit call respectable cliiMren. The 
 managers will always be able to exercise care, but I should deprecate in (Jajie Town 
 any rigid distinction as to colom-. 
 
 543. "Would ndt you give managers the power to exclude without assigning any 
 cause, leaving it to their judgment and common sense ; woidd not tiie elfoct of that be 
 to allow tlie best coloured children to come in, but to exclude the objectionable coloured 
 ones ? — I should not like at all to make colour a distinction ; the managers ought to 
 bave some other reason for excluding besides purely colour. 
 
 544. Would you require managers to assign a reason before excluding!' — They 
 might assign a reason to the Education Department ; they need not do it publicly. I 
 am speaking entirely from Cape Town experience. 
 
 545. ilavo you seen the proposal of Sir Langham Dale's, and do you approve of 
 it P — Yes, on the whole, I do. A great deal will depend on the sohools to which it is 
 applied. If it is applied to those schools wliicli have laid themselves out, if I may say 
 BO, for the white children, then I approve of it highly, but I shoidd deprecate its being 
 applied to all mission sohools. I am speaking from Caiie Town experience. 
 
 546. What schools would you apply it to ? — Not to schools like my own, whore 
 the majority are coloured children and of the poorest class. I am quite sure that 
 such schools as mine — and I speak for the Dutch Reformed Church and other denomi- 
 nations — will look after the children very much better than any School IJoard could. 
 Mr. Dreyer has lately opened a capital school in llose-street, and I am quite sure that 
 Mr. Dreyer and myself look after our children very much better than any lioard could do. 
 
 547. Mr. Thcron.^ Would you have anj' objection to the system being aj>plied to 
 country schools ? — I know very little about country schools. I have only visited the 
 coimtry schools within the last few years, since I have been made Archdeacon. It is 
 my duty to visit them in that capacity. 
 
 548. You have got these poor children who cannot attend the undenominational 
 first and second class schools on. account of their poverty, want of proper clothes, and 
 80 on, and then they generally make use of the mission scliools ; do you think that in 
 that case a fourth class undenominational school under the manager of the existing un- 
 denominational school, whether first or second class, could bo utilis(Kl fur the pur])Ose 
 of a preparatory department for these chihlreu — I think it might be done, but could 
 there not be some arrangement made hy which these white children of the poorer class 
 could be sent to a tliird class school ? I should deprecate any action which had the 
 effect of shutting up the mission schools. That is a matter for arrangement between 
 the districts and the Education Department, the establishment of an intermediate school. 
 
 549. I'rcmlent.\ Do you know enough about the working of third-class schools to 
 say whether there is room in the country districts '<f — No ; I am speaking of om- mission 
 schools hero ; in tliec ountry the great bulk are coloured cJiildren ; there are some villages 
 where there ai'c white children, more especially in the Eastern Districts. 
 
 550. Mr. Coetzee.'] These mission schools, are they all denominational schools in 
 connection with the Church ? — All our mission schools in Cape Town are connected 
 with one or other religious body. 
 
 551. Are there any children attending your schools belonging to other denomina- 
 tions ? — Yes ; chiefly Mahommedan. 
 
 552. Is there much changing of pupils from one school to another ? — There is. 
 We find that when we come to put pressure on about school fees, a certain number of 
 children leave. As far as we can, we have established a sort of friendly rule, that we 
 will not take children in those cases. We have to give and take in these matters. We 
 never take in children who have left other schools because they would not pay the 
 Bchool fees ; that is, if we can discover it.
 
 61 
 
 553. Dean Holmes.'] Have you considered the possibility of establishing a School TheR«T. 
 Board in a town like this to work side by side with the Voluntary System ? — No ; it ^' ^- ^'f""*- 
 is quite a new question to me. Feb. 23rd, 1891. 
 
 554. Do you experience any difficulty in obtaining teachers in any of these 
 schools ? — Yes ; in obtaining efficient teachers. 
 
 555. Can you assign any reason for that P^Chiefly on account of our limited 
 means. Take my own school ; we receive £75 a year from Government, and I can 
 only pay £160 among six teachers. The head master gets £72, and he is a man of 
 very considerable experience ; he was master once of a second-class school at Lady 
 Grey. Two of my teachers are my own daughters, and their salaries are only pocket 
 money, otherwise I could not supply the needs of the school. 
 
 556. Dr. Berry.] Are these schools all attached to congregations ? — Some of them 
 indicate so many congregations, but the School of Industry, St. Michael's Home, and 
 the Orphanage are all within the Cathedral parish. 
 
 557. The funds reqviired for carrying on those schools, how are they arranged, are 
 they raised by one common fund in the church ? — No, we are each responsible for our 
 own. In my case I have lately been able to build schools, after many years work. I 
 have nothing to pay except the salaries and incidental expenses, repairs and such like. 
 The Government give me £75 a year, and the fees amount to about £30, and then in 
 our own mission church we have a monthly offertory towards the schools. The coloured 
 people give gladly to it, and we get about £30 a year in the offertory. The rest is 
 provided by myself in one way or another ; we have a little sale of work once a year, 
 and I get a few subscriptions. 
 
 558. Could you tell the Commission approximately what amount of money will be 
 required in addition to the school fees and Government grant, to keep all those schools 
 going that you have named ? — In my own case my school fees amount to about £30 
 a year, and the Government grant is £75, then I have to raise either in offertories or in 
 subscriptions the balance. £175 a year is the total cost of my schools. 
 
 559. You have to maintain the buildings in addition to that, have you not ? — 
 Yes. What one feels is that in regard to our mission schools in Cape Town, we do not 
 receive aid in proportion to the amount of good we do socially, by getting all these 
 rough children into something like order. In our own case, I have about 250 children 
 a day. * It is true we get a grant of £75 a year, but we do a good deal more than £75 
 worth of Work for the State, I think. 
 
 560. It comes to this practically, that the English Church, as far as these schools 
 are concerned, is taxing itself to educate the community's paupers ? — I would not say 
 they are paupers ; they are a most interesting and useful class, the labouring class, and 
 a great many of the children are Mahommedans. 
 
 561. President.'] How did you get money for the buildings, which you formerly 
 hired ? — By offertories and subscription. 
 
 562. The church has given these buildings, and spends £75 a year out of its 
 offertories to maintain this particular school ? — Yes, offertories and donations. 
 
 563. Sir Laugham Dale said that there was not enough money forthcoming from 
 the religious bodies to support schools for the class in question, do you agree with that? 
 — Quite. If the compulsory system is introduced, undoubtedly something would have 
 to be done by the State in addition in the way of providing schools and paying for teachers. 
 
 564. Mr. Rowan..] Are there many Mahommedans attending your school ? — Yes, 
 young children. I cannot say how many, but on Tuesday and Wednesday last week 
 in the infant school, there was an average attendance of 217 children a day, on Friday, 
 which is the Mahommedau sabbath, it fell to 181 ; on Monday it fell to 190 ; Monday is 
 often a great Mahommedan holiday. 
 
 565. If a compulsory or truancy law were introduced or applied to Cape Town, 
 would not the Malay element be a difficult element to deal with ? — I think it would be 
 necessary to open an additional class of school. 
 
 566. President.] Under Church influence ? — No; I might say that the Mahomme- 
 daus themselves have had this question under consideration for some time, and I have 
 asked some of the more intelligent among them whether, supjwsing the Government 
 did apply a Truancy Act as it has been called, requiring all children to go to scliool, 
 they would be content with some proposal akin to what Sir Langhaui Dale made to 
 them a few years ago, to have a (juvernment school with a properly qiialifipd Chi'istian 
 teacher who would not interfuro with their religion, but would get them into habits of 
 order, and teach them necessary things, letting them be responsible for their own reli- 
 gious instruction. I understand they are to have a meeting about this'very matter 
 within the next week or two. 
 
 567. Mr. Rotcan.] In the case of such a Malay school, how would you appoint a 
 Committee or Board to manage this particular school ? — I should leave it entirely to 
 
 1 1
 
 62 
 
 _ P'r^^; tliG Education Department ; they shoiild appoint the Board. I have the utmost 
 " ' possible confidouee in the Department. I do not see how you can api)ly a compulsory 
 
 Feb. 2:!rd, 1S91. Act, unless yan do make some provision for tliese Mahonimedan children. 
 
 568. Pmiiicnt.'] How many Mahonimedan children would there be, do j'ou think, 
 who would have to be forced into school in this way ? — I could not say for certain. 
 Five hundred perhaps. 
 
 5f)9. At present there is no ju-ovision for them ? — When I came here, thirty years 
 ago, the Malays came to .scliool up to a mucli more advanced age than they do at 
 present. There were girls in the School of Industry in Malay dress, and big boys as 
 well as girls came, whereas now the children ai-e taken away before they reach 
 their teens. 
 
 570. Is not that because they are afraid lest they might become converted ? 
 — Probably that is the reason, since the Ohurclies have been trying to do more to gain 
 them over to the Christian faith. I attribute it also to the closer connection which 
 the Mala3S have with Mecca. In former days they were shut off and isolated, but now 
 they go as pilgrims to Alecca aud are more strictly acquainted with their own principles. 
 
 571. At what age do children become useful to their parents? — Nine or ten I 
 should say. 
 
 572. Dean jffolmpfi.'] If we had this attendance officer, do you think it would 
 bring your attendance up to something like 85 per cent ? — I think it would. 
 
 573. Br. Berry.'] Do you mean 85 per cent, of those on the roll ? — Yes. 
 
 574. Ikan llotmes.'] Do you have many applications for the conscience clause to be 
 put into effect ? — I have never had one. The religious instruction is of a verj^ primary 
 character, consisting of tlie Ci'eed, the Lord's Praj'er, aud the Ten Commandments, not 
 much beyond that. 
 
 575. Proiidenf.'] Are there two languages used in your tchool — Dutch and 
 English ? — We use Dutch in explanation. The difficulty as to language does not 
 occur to us, inasmuch as there are three l)utch schools almost within a stone's throw of 
 ours. The children know that ours is an English scliool and that English is taught. We 
 never have any diiliculty about tliat. Those who want to be taught specially in Dutch 
 go to the l\ev. Mr. Midler's school, or the liev. Mr. Botha's, or Mr. Dreyer's. We 
 are all within three minutes walk of each other. 
 
 576. Practically you are within the same area? — The Department has given ns 
 different districts, but we ai-e very near each other. We use Dutch of course for inter- 
 pretation. 
 
 577. Dr. Berry.'] IIow would a new district be formed? — The districts are formed 
 entirely by the Education Department, where the Department sees there is need for a 
 school. 
 
 578. Who would move the Department in the first instance ? — I suppose appliea- 
 cation would be made, if any new religious body was anxious to take up the work. 
 For instance, the Moravians saw an opening : thej applied to the Education Depart- 
 ment, and a district was marked out for them. They are really nominal districts, 
 because children are taken from all parts of the town. 
 
 579. Is there uny Ius]iector sent to visit and report upon the proposed district ? — 
 Yes. All enquiries are made before any change in the district is made., 
 
 580. What standard would the children in your S'jiiool reach before they leave ? 
 — Many of the children unfortunately leave belore they reach any standard at all. 
 Many leave when tliey have reached Standard I, some at Standard II. The 
 Mahommedans tal^e their children away at a very early age, after they have learned 
 just to read and write a little. The mrdtiphcation table is often a serious trouble. 
 
 581. They are what the Department calls " below Standard," man}' of them ? 
 — Yes. The best work of these mission schools, I consider, is getting these children 
 into something like order and discipline. I always feel that we are doing good 
 work to the country in that way, although they are taken away so early. At any 
 rate, we instil principles of order and disciiiline into their minds. 
 
 582. But would that be all the schooling they have ? — Unless they go on. As 
 I say, they are taken away at a very early age. I am speaking of the lowest 
 class in the mission schools. 
 
 583. President]. Does the Church of England work any undenomiuational 
 school in Cape Town ? — I do not think we do. 
 
 584. Do they anywhere that you know of ? — There are members of the Chm-ch 
 of England individually who are upon the committee of the Good Hope Seminary. 
 
 585. And they work in connection with members of the Dutch lieformed Church 
 do they not ? — Yes ; upon that Board individually they are^members. 
 
 586. Does any denomination particularly work that school ? — Practically it is 
 under the Dutch lieformed Chui-ch. The building really belongs to them.
 
 63 
 
 587. Is there any di8inelination on tlio part of the clergy to work in connection TheRev. 
 with these undenominational schools; to work with other denominations ? — I do not ^- ^- J-^W<x^U 
 think thf^re is any disinclination where it is a needful oi- useful thing; but of course Feb. 23rd, 1891. 
 we prefer to have our own schools. There have been cases where the Cliurch haa 
 
 tried to work in harmonj' with school committees, and failed. 
 
 588. Have they alw.ays failed ? — I do not say always, but there are some cases of 
 the kind. 
 
 589. How is it that those interested in the Church of England do not, as a rule, 
 work under the undenominational system ; is it not so ? — As a rule, we prefer to have 
 our own schools where we can, but we recognise the existence of undenominational 
 schools, of course, as regards work which we cannot ourselves undertake. 
 
 590. Do you work in sympathy with tliem, and encourage them i* — It is hard to 
 say. I speak for mj'self, but I have had very little experience. I tried to work in 
 hannony with one committee and I failed. 
 
 591 I cannot imderstand in a place like Cape Town, why the Church should not 
 start a good second or third class undenominational school, and give all its influence to 
 it, and work it so as to have a better class of children ? — There is the South African 
 College School, and there are also two or three good private schools in Cape Town, in the 
 hands of very useful members of our Church, and we feel that we should be acting ungrate- 
 fully to many excellent laymen who are helping us, if we went in opjiosition to them. 
 Mr. Sutton's school and Mr. Dalton Douallier's school are both excellent schools in 
 Cape Town. 
 
 f592. Do you think that schools like that ought to have aid from Government ? — 
 I have always felt that they should. 
 
 593. I see that Sir Langhara Dale in his report for 1887 recommends it ? — Yes. 
 I know that report. 
 
 594. To that extent you approve of it ? — Yes. 
 
 595. Rev. Goetzee.l Are all the .schools in connection with your Church 
 denominational schools, even when aided by Government ? — Of course if any child, 
 under the conscience clause, declines to. be present during religious instruction, it does 
 not attend, but I have never bad any difficulty. 
 
 •096. Strictly speaking, you have no undenominational schools in connection with 
 yourChiurch? — No; they are more or less connected with oui- Church, subject of 
 course to the conscience clause. 
 
 597. Br. Berry.'] Sir Langham Dale told us that mission schools were estabhshed 
 forty or fifty years ago, to give ediication to tlie coloured classes, but he finds that as 
 years go on, the white childi-en elbow the coloured children out ; is that so ? — Some- 
 times that is the case. 
 
 598. He finds that there are 2,500 white ehildi-en in Cape Town in the mission 
 schools, and now he wants to establish fourth class undenominational schools, for the 
 purpose of providing better schooling for these 2,500 white children, letting tlie mission 
 schools revert to the coloured children, for whom they were originally intended. If 
 tl:at is the case, how is it that a reverend gentlemen in the Synod of the English 
 Ciiuich, in Cape Town, said that he would not favour the setting up of fourth class 
 un Icnominational schools, as the white children would be withdrawn Irfim the mission 
 Bcuools. It seems to some of us that it would be a very good thing if these white 
 chillren '.vere withdrawn from these mission scliools, and tliat they were kept for the 
 class they were originally intended for. What is the reason for an Enghsh Church- 
 man opposing the withdrawal of white children from the mission schools and placing 
 them in the foui-th class undenominational schools ? — I suppose he would not oppose 
 the withdrawal of those who could pay more suitable fees. My own view is, that if 
 these fourth class undenominational scliools wore introduced, they should be for those 
 children who can pay higher fees than are usually asked for in oui- mission schools. 
 I know mission schools in town at this present moment where higher fees ai-e de- 
 manded, and certain influence is used in order to keep out coloured children. TJiat class 
 of schools ought to be moved into the fourth class. That is my own impressionat least. 
 
 599. President.'] They would not be in connection with any Church ? — No, I 
 think not. 
 
 600. Would 3'ou expect tliese fourth class uixdenominational schools to be worked 
 practically through denominational agencies ? — In much the same way as number two 
 schools are ; the Good Hope Seminary would be number one, I suppose. That institution 
 is practically worked through the agency of the Dutch Refbrmed Chm-ch. By its very 
 constitution it is obliged to be. 
 
 601. Dr. Berry.] Do you think if tlie Education Depai-tment agrees to establish 
 fourth class undenominationol schools, we couM really depend upon the support of tlie 
 religious bodies in Cape Town in forwarding them 'f — So far as their aiii>lioatioa to 
 Cape Town is concerned. I cannot say anything about the country.
 
 64 
 
 rV^^r^^f '50i2- Preaitlent.'] Would it not to a great extent get rid of that feeling among 
 
 ■ jg^Joo . j^jj^jjy Chwch of England men against these undenominational schools — or as they call 
 Feb. 23rd, 1891. them " Godless school.*." hy their taking a more active interest 'i — If arrangements can 
 bo made by which tlir^o .sdinols shall be nioro or less connected with the dill'orent 
 religious bodies whicli iiracticull}' e.stablisii them, the difheulty would be overcome, 
 juBt in the same way as the Good Hope Seminary is connected with the l)utchIiefornied 
 Church ; so, I think, if these mission schools are converted into fourth class undenomi- 
 national schools, that body which practically has established them and given the 
 buildings, and got the children together, should really- have the special control. I 
 would apply the same rule as is applied now to schools of the higher class. 
 
 603. Do you know anything about the working of Board schools in England ? 
 No ; not at all. 
 
 604. Is there anything else you would like to state to the Commission ? — With 
 regard to the Mahommedans I notice a great difference be' ween that class now and 
 what it was when I came here. The .sj'stem of apprenticeship to trades does not seem 
 to be encouraged so much as it was then ; and the consequence is, that a number of 
 the young Malays and half-coloured sort of people, simply do nothing, but spend their 
 time in loafing about and gambling, and they are ready for any kind of disturbance. 
 
 605. Br. Bcmj.'] Do j-ou refer to apprenticeship to European masters ? — Yes, 
 tradesmen. Now, there does not seem to be that system of apprenticeship to any 
 extent ; it is going out altogether, I am afraid. These young fellows become their 
 own masters at a very early age. 
 
 The Rev. Canon Richard Brooke examined. 
 
 Ct^n^^ard ^^^' -^''''•"''"''''"'■1 I believe you are principal of the Diocesan College ? — Yes. 
 
 """Brooke" 607. Aud you have had a good deal to do with education? — Yes; for 25 years 
 
 I have had experience in different schools in the Colony, public undenominational 
 
 Feb. 23rd, 1891. ^^^ mission schools. 
 
 608. Where were you head of an undenominational public school? — At Clanwilliam. 
 
 609. Do you know how the Boards of Management are brought into existence ? — 
 Yes ; by election. 
 
 610. Do you think the system is a good one? — Not altogether. There was one 
 weak point which struck me when I was teacher, namely, that no provision is made 
 for the continuity of the Boards. When one Board goes out, the school property 
 really belongs to no one ; there are no trustees under the present arrangement. The 
 system also seemed to me to press very hardly on teachers. A teacher may be engaged 
 for a period of three years, and do very good work, but if any petty jealousy exists 
 in a village, and party feeling runs high, at the end of three yeai-s he may be cast 
 adrift, and have to look for occupation elsewhere. That presses very hard on the 
 teachers. 
 
 611. What would you substitute for the Board? — I think there should always 
 be on the Board a nominee of the Government, — either of the Superintendent-General 
 of Education, or of the Government — who should hold office until a successor was 
 appointed in the same way as himself, and who should, in conjunction with the 
 Secretary of the Board, act as trustee of the school jiroperty. At present, the Board 
 accumulates school property, and even buys buildings, but there is no provision as far 
 as I can make out, for its being held iu trust by a.ny body. 
 
 61'^. Would you make the Civil Commissioner the nominee ? — Not necessarily. 
 Probablj' the Civil Commissioner would be the nominee. De should be the nominee 
 of the Government, and should be trustee in conjunction with the Secretary or President 
 of the Board for the time being. 
 
 613. Is it advisable to have any altei-ation in the mode of election of those Boards ; 
 do you approve of the system of guarantors ? — Taking all the circumstances of the 
 Colony into consideration, that system has worked as well as any other system could 
 have worked. 
 
 614. "Would you advise any change now? — Yes; in the direction of making the 
 Board of a more permanent character, if possible. 
 
 615. Would you have such a Board elected by the ratepayers, and then abolish 
 the present system of guarantors, leaving the ratepayers, that is to say the district, 
 liable for any deficiency that might occur, somewhat in the same way as Divisional 
 Councils are elected ; do you think the electors would generally elect men competent 
 to deal with the matter of education as well as the present Board of Management, or 
 better ? — I hardly think they would, because those elected to the Divisional Council 
 or Municipality are elected by persons who have different interests. 
 
 616. But would not the electors, although not educated men themselves perhaps, 
 probably select suitable men, and in that way they would represent the district ? — They 
 would represent the district perhaps, but the interests of a village and those of a
 
 ^5 
 
 district are not always the same ; even though the guarantors in a village might The R«t. 
 contribute the largest share, they would, by that mode of election, be vu-tuaily shut '^"'Xofif'"^'' 
 out of the management. roo^. 
 
 617. The country schools would also come under this system, and they would also Fe'>- 23rd, I89i 
 get some advantage 1 take it, would they not, from the rates that are levied for 
 educational purposes, so that the whole district would be more or less interested in the 
 
 selection of a good Board Y — Tlien that presupposes the present system being done away 
 with and the schools supported out of the rates ; that is a different tiling. If the schools 
 are supported out of the rates in that way, then 1 think it is only just that the rate- 
 payers of the district should have the election of the School Board, but even then, I 
 think there should be some nominee of the Superintendent-General of Education, both 
 for the safe-keeping of the school property, and also for the sake of the teacher. The 
 teacher's position at present is too precarious. 
 
 618. Would it be less precarious under a Board eoustituted in the way you proi)ose; 
 I mean less precarious than under a committee or board ? — Not without some other 
 provision. 1 should say a teacher should not be removed merely at the expiry of a term, 
 unless he is proved to be incompetent, and in no (ase without reference to the Super- 
 intendent-General of Education. 
 
 619. How are you to prevent it when a new Board takes all the responsibilities 
 of woi-king the school ? — The Government contributes half, and sliould have a say in 
 the matter. 
 
 620. Bean Ilo/mes.^ You think that no teacher should be dismissed without the 
 consent of the Education Department r' — -He .should not. 
 
 621. Pre>iidcnf.~\ That woidd bo a better plan than assigning a cause. Sometimes 
 a teacher may be very incompetent, and it may be recognised, and yet you cannot 
 assign any special cause ; is not that so very often ? — Practically speaking it is so 
 sometimes, but, if party spirit runs high when a new Board is eli3cted, the ttacljer is 
 sometimes not re-elected, but left high and dry through no fault of his own 
 
 622. Do you know anything about the working of School Boards in EugLiud 1' — 
 No ; their creation is since my time. 
 
 623. Would you have the work of the Board under the inspection of the Govern- 
 ment ? — Decidedly. 
 
 624. And the Government contribution to be contingent upon the Inspector's 
 report ? — Yes. Now it is virtually on the £ for £ principle. 
 
 625. Rev. Coetzee.^ From your experience, you would advise adhering to the 
 present system of guarantors ? — Not as it is. If the Divisional Councils contribute a 
 share towai'ds the expense of the .school, then I think the Board should be elected by 
 those who elect members for the Divisional Council ; that is only faii;, but at the .same 
 time, I think there should be one member of the Board at least nominated by the 
 Government, both for the sake of the prf)perty and for the sake of the teachers. 
 
 626. Mr. Rowan.'] I believe you were in charge of the Clanwilliam school for a 
 long time ? — Yes. 
 
 627. Was there ever a deficiency in making up the salaries of the teachers and 
 other expenses incidental to the school r' — Not while I was there. The first six months 
 there was, but afterwards there was always something over. 
 
 628. Do you remember how that deficiency was made up ; did it fall on the 
 guarantors, or on the parents of the children ? — It wo aid have fallen on the guarantors 
 but it was made up the next half-year out of the general revenue of the school. 
 
 629. Dean Holmes.'] From your experience as head master of the Clanwilliam 
 school, was there a difficulty in obtaining a good supply of teachers P — At that time 
 there was. My assistants were trained by myself. 
 
 630. Do you know whether there is any difiicidty at the present time in keeping 
 up the supply of young men for teachers Y — There is a groat difficulty, I believe. 
 
 631. Can you suggest any reason for that diificidty f — One reason is the 
 insecurity of tenure of office. After a term or two, teachers look out for something 
 else. They will not be so much at the mercy of a party. 
 
 632. Do joM think the rate of pay has anything to do with it 'f — ^No ; I think on 
 the whole that teachers are paid as well as other men of the same stamp. 
 
 633. Mr. T/ienin.] It is only the insecurity of the ollicc then ? — Yes. That has 
 more to do with it than anything else. A man does good work, but he is not sure 
 that he will be able to go on. He may be cast adrift at tfie end of the time. I know 
 that has happened. 
 
 634. President.'] What subjects do you think ought to be subjects tliat come 
 under the Higher Education Act, and whut ought to be reserved for the first class public 
 \indenominational schools ; where ought the duties of the one to end and the others 
 begin? — I think the duties of the first class public undenominational schools should 
 practically end wheu such a standard as the School higher examination has been
 
 C6 
 
 The Rcy. reached, because they have not facilities in country villages for such suhiects as chemistry. 
 
 Canon Rtehard n • , ' el l /. i • i i i i x i i i- /~i i i 
 
 Brooke. 'or mstanco ; very olten, too, a teaclior is not eompcteut to tcicli Liatui or (jrreek jin i| lerly. 
 
 635. You would not lot the iir-( class uudcuouiiuational schools refuse to teach those 
 
 '23rd, '891. g^^jgg^g. yQ^ -^vould merely discourage them':' — I should discourage them ; they are 
 really then doing the work of the colleges. 
 
 636. Mr. llouuii.'] Where should, in your opinion, the work of the colleges begin? 
 — Just beyond the School higher examination. The immediate preparation for 
 matriculation should, I think, be done at the colleges. 
 
 G37. In other words, you are in favour of what we call a senior matriculation 
 class, and not a junior? — Yes; but boys should be, in most cases, two years at a college ; 
 one year in the junior division of the matriculation class, and the other in the senior. 
 
 638. Di(in lIolni(s.'\ You would not banish the junior matriculation class from the 
 colleges, woiJd you ? — Not at present. If, however, a teacher of a public school takes 
 uj) this work and prepai'es pupils for the matriculation examination, he must give a 
 great part of Ids time to tliat class, and the school generally, unless he lias a good 
 assistant, suffers in consequence. 
 
 639. Mr. Romin.'] But if lie prepares the pupils for school honors, would not one 
 year be sufficient to bring them up to the matriculation, that is to say, if they pass 
 well ? — It depends upon circumstances. If they have taken up Greek and chemistry 
 for the school honors, I would say yes. 
 
 640. Dr. Berri/.'] Then are the parents in these second and third rate towns and 
 villages to give up their chance of having local education for their sons who want to 
 matriculate ? — I would not say, give up theii' chance, but think something better 
 should be desired for them. 
 
 641. Would nf)t you rather see greater facilities offered in these schools for 
 teaching boys and girls up to the matriculation standard, than see them taken away ? — 
 It is much more to the advantage of the pupils to be taken away and sent to institutions 
 that have the superior work in hand. 
 
 642. But suppose the parents cannot afford it, what then ? — Facilities might be 
 afforded by the Government for gi^'ing bm-saries. It is much better to send scholars to 
 one of the bigger insti'^utions ; Government gets more iu return for its money. 
 
 643. Prei^idfiit.'] Is there anj'tliing else on which you desire to offer a suggestion. 
 How can the irregular attendance of childi'en in towns be met ? — That can only be 
 met by making attendance compulsory. Children who run about the streets should be 
 forced to go to school. Theii- parents •will not send them unless they are compelled to 
 do so. 
 
 644. Have you seen Sir Langham Dale's suggestion about fourth class public 
 undenominational scliools ? — Yes. 
 
 645. Do you approve of it ? — I can hardly say that I do. The plan may answer 
 very well for two or three large centres like Cape Town and Port Elizabeth, but it 
 would interf i^re greatly with mission schools, which are doing a great deal of educational 
 work in the Colony. 
 
 646. In what way ? — The more promising and better class of childi-en would bo 
 taken away, and nothing would be left but the poorest of the poor. 
 
 647. Is not that the object of mission schools, more, or less? — It has not been 
 hitherto. 
 
 648. Archdeacon Lightfoot has told us that he is in favour of these fourth class 
 schools in Cape Town ? — Yes, in Cape Town and large centres, but I doubt if they 
 would answer in small villages like Caledon, Swellendam, and Stellenbosch. 
 
 649. Don)} Ho/iiies.'] You would approve of these fourth class schools in large 
 towns, but not in villages ? — Y''es ; in large towns they woidd be very useful. 
 
 650. Profiidi'nf.'] Have you foiTued anj opinion with regard to the teaching of the 
 English and Dutch languages in schools ? — 1 think that it is a distinct gain to any 
 child to bo taught any language jiroperlj^ whether Dutch or English. Dutch is useful 
 in this country, and I think it would be bettor to teach it than a foreign language, say 
 French for instance. On the other hand, it is a distinct gain for a Dutch child to be 
 taught English. A Dutch child who has been taught English thoroughly is certainly 
 on a higher level intellectuallj' than a Duteli child who has not been taught English. 
 
 651. Rev. Coetzce.'] And the same witli regard to an English child taught Dutch, 
 I su]iijcjse ? — Yes : it cuts the other way, but it is of greater use for a Dutch child to 
 bo taught English, than for an English child to be tauglit Dutch, because in a.11 pro- 
 bability the Dutch child will be brought into contact with English people who cannot 
 understand Dutch, whereas it is I'ot so probable that the Euglish child will be brought 
 into contact with I )iitch people who cannot uiuleistand English; so tlie usefulness 
 would be greater; but from an eilucational point of view, it is just as advantageous for 
 a Dutch child to be taught Euglish as for an English child to be tauglit Dutch — 
 proper Dutch I mean, not the "taal."
 
 67 
 
 652. Prcsidciif.] You mean high Dutch? — Yes, as at present taught in the higher TheRcr. 
 schools. . i- e S '^'"Z^j^J"'"' 
 
 653. You would not teaoh the " taal "? — No ; I think if farmers could be made 
 
 to understand that it is distinctly an advantage for their children to be taught Englisli ^'^- 23rd, 189I. 
 
 thoroughly, and that they would be, as I said just now, on a higher level intellectually 
 
 than if they were not taught it, any objection would be removed. It is not so many 
 
 years ago that farmers were very anxious for their children to bo 1 aught English, and 
 
 in fact not to have one word of Dutch spokeu while the pupils wore in school, so that 
 
 their children might acquire Englisli properly. 
 
 654. Her. Moorrecs.~] Do not you find, as a matter of fact-, tiiat farmers are even 
 now anxious, whenever they can afford it, that their children should have a good 
 English education ? — Yes, decidedly. 
 
 655. But at the same time they have lately begun to see the necessity for having 
 good Dutch taught also, liave they not ? — Yes ; especially since it has been made a 
 sine qua non in the Civil Service examinations. 
 
 656. President.'] Woidd you introduce Dutch as a compulsory subject in the 
 Elementary examination of the University ? — Decidedly not. First of all I consider 
 it impracticable. I do not think that one examiner could value the papers properly 
 for the purpose of comparison if some were done in English and the others in Dutch. 
 If there were papers set in English and Dutch, the difficulty of getting examiners 
 would be almost insujierable. Besides that, it is a distinct advantage to a Dutch child 
 to have things as they are. We know how popular the Elementary examination is, 
 how it reaches all corners of the colony, and it is a very good thing that it does, and 
 Dutch children should have that before them as an inducement to learn English ; it 
 would be a distinct disadvantage to them to have that spur taken away. 
 
 657. Rev. Moorreen.] Do you think that any spur is necessarj' to the teaching of 
 English in this colony, where English has so many advantages already ? — I do not 
 know that I can say I do; I say this, that it would be a bad thing to put aujthiug in 
 the way of a child acquiring a knowledge of English. As a rule children require 
 something put before them as an incentive, and all do not naturally learn as much as 
 they possibly can. If Dutch children thought English was an extra subject, and they 
 could avoid it, some of them probably would avoid it. It is a distinct gain for a child 
 to have something set before it as a kind of incentive. At present one must learn a 
 certain amount of English to go up for the Elementary examination. This offers a 
 useful inducement. 
 
 658. Mr. lioHim.'] Do you know of any countries where two languages exist, and 
 there are two sets of examinations ? — Where they exist, yes, but not where they are 
 tried in the same examiuatioTj . 
 
 659. litv. Moorrceis.] The question has been asked whether you would make 
 Dutch compulsory in the Elementary examination, but would you favor Dutch being 
 made optional ? — First of all, I do not think the Elementary examination should be 
 made a bit more difficult than it is. The majority of children who go up for it have 
 quite sufficient work as it is at present ; to add another paper, as you necessarily 
 would for Dutch, would either interfere with their getting u]) otlier work eificiently, 
 or it would really give them more than they could do without being unduly pressed. 
 
 660. Would it not be unfair that one class of candidates should be compelled to 
 learn Dutch without having any advantage from it ? — Some equivalent might be put 
 on the other side. 
 
 661. Presideiif.l Is French a subject for the Elementary examination? — No, not 
 for the Elementary, it is for the Higher examiuatii)n. 
 
 662. Per. Coctzee.] Is it not right in regard to Matriculation, that the two 
 languages of the country, English and Dutch, should have higher marks than foreign 
 languages like French and German ? — English is marked pretty high. 
 
 663. But Dutch is not, is it ? — I do not see the slightest objection to marking 
 Dutch higher than French. I should encomage Dutch rather than French, that is to 
 say, proper Dutch. 
 
 664. Dr. Berry.'] In the Elementary examination, if there is sucli a desire for 
 Dutch, would it not be pf>ssible (o sot tlie same paper in both languages. English aud 
 Dutch? — There would be the dilliculty about looking over the paper by the University 
 Examiners. 
 
 665. I suppose you must have a competent set of examiners, must you not ? — I 
 doubt if you would get them. It would be almost impossible to value the papers, as 
 two different sets of examiners would have to do tliat work. 
 
 666. Her. Coelzee.] Is it not only natural but also rea.sonable to suppose that a 
 boy who has to begin by unlearning everything (hat he knows, and acquire quite a 
 stiauge language, must be at a disadvantage couipareJ with a boy who has only 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] K
 
 68 
 
 - build on what ho knows, and go on accjui 
 
 Jtrookf. tl'*" difliculty is as great as it seems. As far as I take it, learning ]iroper Dutch is 
 — almost as difficult to a child who only understands Cape Dutch, as learning English, 
 
 ^•b. 2.3rd, 1891. j(. jg almost as foreign a language as English. 
 
 667. Still, there is the vocabulary, is there not ? — There is more or less of a 
 vocabulary in either case. Tiie a\ erage farm child knows about as much of English as 
 he does of the Dutch of Holland. 
 
 668. President.'] Are you of opinion that a Dutch boy at school, or when he is 
 answering a paper, thinks in Enj^^lisli or thinks in Dutch':* — If he has been in the 
 college, ho probably thinks in Englisli. The vocabulary of Cape Dutch is very limited, 
 and BO, if he simply thinks in tliat language, he has only a limited scope for his 
 thoughts to travel in, and that is a distinct disadvantage. 
 
 Cape Toirn, Tnmlay, February 2it/i, 1891. 
 
 VKKSKNT : 
 
 Sir J. D. B.vKRY (President), 
 Rev. Coetzee, I Dean Holmes, 
 
 Kev. Moorrees, | T. P. Theron, Es(j., 
 
 A. N. Rowan, Estj., j Dr. Beny. 
 
 The Rev. J. 31. Mussel/, M.A., examined. 
 The Rev. 669, Pir.sirfriil.'] "What position do you occui)y ? — I am minister of the Scottish 
 
 "m jy*""^ Presbyterian Church in Cape Town. 
 
 " 670. Have j-ou had anything to do with education in Cape Town !'' — We have a 
 
 I'Vb. 24th, I89I- mission school in connection witli our church, and I have also for a considerable time 
 been member of the Council of the South African College. 
 
 671. Have you taken any interest in the subject of Elementary Education 'r 
 — Yes ; so far as our mission school is concerned. 
 
 672. How many chihben have you at your schools ? — There is only one Scotch 
 Presbj'teriau mission school in Cape Town. There are 118 children on the books, 
 with an ordinary daily attendance of 106. 
 
 ()7''5. Do you consider that irregular or not, is it fairi* — We find very great 
 irregularity in the attendance, but that matter has been improved by the system of 
 monthly payments instead of weekly payments. Wc used to have our fees paid weekly, 
 and the consequence was that if the children missed coming on Monday or Tuesday, 
 thej' would probably keep away the whole week so as to avoid pajdng for the week. 
 Now we have adopted monthly' pa3-ments, and if the child is absent one or two days 
 they must pay all the same for the whole month. Om- teacher says that that has 
 improved the attendance verj' greatly. 
 
 674. Then to a great extent the cause of irregidarity is the parents:' — I would 
 say so. Doubtless there is truancy also, but I should think parents are to blame for a 
 great ttieasure of the irregularit}-. 
 
 675. How would you best remedj' that irregularity I-* — I do not quite see any 
 intermediate method between compulsory attendance and our present system. 
 
 676. Would you recommend the compulsory system? — I think it might be 
 adopted in large towns, like Cape Town for instance. I suppose there would be great 
 difficulty in the countr}' in enforcing compulsory attendance. A truancy officer could 
 not do very much if it is the parents who are to blame. 
 
 677. The truancy officer would have to go about the streets, and the parents 
 would keep the children at honi(\ How would you have such a truancy ollicer 
 appointed ? — I say it is a question whether a truancy officer could do very much good 
 when the parents are so much at fault. 
 
 678. Still you think that the compulsory sj'stem is advisable, and if so, a truancy 
 officer would be necessary, woidd he not ':' — Yes ; there would need to be a system of 
 looking after those children who kept awa^', and also providing for the children of 
 destitute people. 
 
 670. Have j'ou any children of des-titute peojile in your school?' — Oeca*ionallv 
 we have admitted children free, as in the case of a widow left without means and 
 having perhaps to STipport several childi'en. 
 
 6SC. Have you got any coloured children in your school P — Yes; a considerable 
 portion is coloured. 
 
 681. Have you any Malays 'f — A few ; not so many as formerly. We ha\e not 
 the very poorest of the coluuied children in our school. 
 
 682. Do 3'ou find any hesitation on their part to come to your school f — Mala3'8 
 come up to a certain age, or they have done so.
 
 69 
 
 68:i. Why do they then leave '■; — They go to their own schools to learn something Tl'^ I^''- 
 of the Koran, I fancy. ' ' ^'%T.""' 
 
 684. Do you teach them religion '' — Yes. - — 
 
 685. All the children who tome to your school? — Vnder the conscience olause^*^- -''*''i '**'• 
 any child who objects stands out. It is not compelled to attend religious instruction. 
 
 686. Denn Uobiiff;.'] Have you had to ]nit that clause in force '^ — Not very much ; 
 we have had Malays who have learned the English shorter catechism. 
 
 687. Instead of this truancy ofhcer, what would jou say to the scheme of having 
 an attendance officer empowered by the Goverament to visit the bouses and discover 
 what children were of a school age, and find out why they were not at school ? — It 
 A\"oidd be an assistance I doubt not, though he would have no power under the present 
 system. Ue could not compel parents to send their childi-en to school. 
 
 688. I am speaking of under the comjndsory system ? — Sucli an officer would be 
 necessary. 
 
 689. Rev. Moorrers.'] Do you think it would have a beneficial effect upon the 
 attendance, if Sir Langham Dale's system of fourth class undenominational schools is 
 carried out, and larger giants given to those schools w^here the attendance is better y — 
 That is another subject of course. I may say first, that the chTirches f(-el the mission 
 schools, at present, a heavy burden on their funds, and I believe that many of them 
 would gladly have them made into public schools. The present allowances for mission 
 schools leave a considerable burden on church funds. I quite agree to the proposed 
 fourth class schools in some respects. As to Boards Sir Langham I)ale proposes to 
 have a mixed Board, representatives of a particular church, and the public. As far as 
 I can see, those mixed Boards would not be really undenominational. The church 
 would have the majority. For instance, at the Good Hope Seminary, there is a Boai-d 
 of nine members, six from the Dutch Reformed Church, or viitually so, and three 
 from the public. I do not ccnsider that a public Board ; the public has really no 
 control in that school, and I think it would be the same with the proposed mixed Boards 
 of fourth class schools. Then also, no church woidd give up its funds unless it were 
 allowed its own religious teaching, hence the proposed mixed Boards would be prac- 
 tically denominational, both in regard to their constitution and in regard to the 
 churches giving money ; they would not give money unless they were allowed their own 
 denominational religious teaching, therefore I think that if the present system is to be 
 changed, the mixed system would not be really undenominational. 
 
 690. What you understand by a mixed Board is a certain number appointed by 
 a religious body and a certain number elected by the public, is it not ? — Yes ; I do not 
 think the proposal would ensure a genmne undenominational Board, and I have 
 instanced the Good Hope Seminary as a' case in point. 
 
 691. Would your objection be met if the inhabitants of the district elected the 
 Board ? — Yes ; then it woidd be a public undenominational school. 
 
 692. President.'] Are you in favoirr of that ? — I would guard myself in this 
 respect. In the villages, if such a school was necessary, I think it should be under 
 the public Board, because that would prevent it injuring the existing ])ublie school. 
 In Cape Town the circumstances are different. The public school system has not met 
 the wants of Cape Town ; the only public boys' school in Cape Town is the South 
 African College School, and people who cannot afford to send their children to that 
 school, and yet who do not wish to send them to the existing mission schools, have to 
 avail themselves of the Roman Catholic schools or the Normal College schools. The 
 ]ndjlic system has uot jirovided for that class of Europeans who cannot afford to send 
 t iieir children to the College school. 
 
 693. Mr. lioivan.~\ i find on the list of undi nominational schools in Cape Town, 
 besides the South African College school and the Good Hope Seminary, St. Martin's 
 second class undenomiuational school, and the Harbour Works and Pepper Street 
 third class undenomiuational schools; what would you consider them? — Those are 
 recent. 1 am not sure as to the constitution of St. Martin's school, whether it is a 
 public Board or whether it is a mixed Board. The Harbour Board school is strictly a 
 public school, I admit. It is under the Harbour Board. 
 
 694. Premlent.'] Where do ihe children come from ? — The Harbour Board has 
 houses for its own workmen, — the Breakwater cottages as they are called— and the 
 school is for the children of these workmen. 
 
 695. Virtually it only deals with that particular section of the community ? — Yes. 
 
 696. Mr. Theron.'] Suppose that all the white childreto were removed out of 
 your mission school into this fourth class school, would you not then be able to carry 
 on your mission school ?— I should say, speaking for my congregation, that wo would 
 gladly give it up. 
 
 697. Bean Uohies.'] You mean ffivo up the mission school ? — Yes. 
 
 K
 
 70 
 
 The Rev. 698. Mr. Theron.'\ Is that because you would not be able to carry it on ? — No. 
 
 M a""^ ' '^^^ arrangcmeut would meet all belonging to our cluirdi. 
 
 699. P reside )if.'\ You would not give up the mission school, would you ? — Our's 
 
 Feb. '.'4th, 1891. is not really ii mission school. It provides for a class of children who are not of a 
 missionary class. I think it is what is called by Sir ]jangham Dale a better class of 
 mission school. 
 
 700. Would you give tliat up altogether, or merely give up sonii> of the work 
 that you do there y — I think our managers wi uld give u]) the .hIiooI altogether. 
 
 701. Jifr. Coetzre.^ You would have it elianged into a fouith class school? — I 
 think cm- m.anagers would be willing. It would be merely changing it into a public 
 school. 
 
 702. Mr. T/iPro)i.'\ Do you mean under this condition that the white and coloured 
 children are separated ? — We have not sejiaiated them, and we ivoiddnot be allowed to ; 
 but I think we have very few of the very dark class in our school. Uui' fees are 
 perhaps a little higher than in such s-chools as that belonging to the South African 
 Missionary Chapel for instance, or St. Stei)hen's. Iheir fees are much lower than ours. 
 
 703. But suppose it was Inid down as a nde that the two dastcs are to be 
 separated — a colour distinction in fact — would yen then be able to make use f>f these 
 fi>urtii class undi nomiuatioual sehoolR Y — A number of the childien of Scotch workmen 
 would probably make use of tlie fourth class public undenominational schools. 
 
 704. Prrsitlnit.'\ Where do those children go now ? — Some go to our present 
 mission school. 
 
 705. Wlii're there are some coloured children ? — Yes. 
 
 70G. And the others, where do they go ? — A great number of the chil'dren of the 
 Scotch artizans go either to the lioman (Catholic or Noi-mal (^oUege Scliools. 
 
 707. J/r. Tlnroii.'\ Suppose a fourth class public undenominational school was 
 established in your district, wordd that Le the means of getting the eluldren back from 
 the lioman Catholic Schools ? — I think a good numy of the boys would come back 
 to us. 
 
 708. That is, when a better class of education is provided? — Y'^es. 
 
 709. Rei: Coctzie.'] I imderstaud you to say that if th^ inhabitants of a district 
 were to choose the Boai-ds, 30U would have no objection these fourth class undenomi- 
 national schools ? — No ; if they were genuine public schools. 
 
 710. The i)lau would bo to parcel off Cape Town into separate districts, each 
 district having a right to establish such a school, if willing, and then the inhabitants 
 would choose the governing body ? — I think there coidd be no objection to that. 
 
 711. And woidd the churches still continue to contribute from their funds ? — No ; 
 I think not, if it were a public school. 
 
 712. Dr. Bcrri/.l You are clear on the point that something is needed to prevent 
 irregul.arity of attendance in what may be called the primary schools of Cape Town ? — 
 Yes, I think so ; 1 think a large number of the parents have very little understanding 
 as to the value of regularity in attendance and a good education. 
 
 713. Are you also clear on tlie point that not only is the attendance irregular, 
 but the numlier of children even on the school rolls is not what it should be ? — I 
 cannot saj- much about vitterly imeducated children ;' how many may there be. 
 
 714. Have you ever made any calculation for tlie purpose of finding out ? — No ; 
 one evil we find in Ca])e Town is that children go from school to school They do not 
 pay thf' fees at one school, and theu go off to another and stay there a little while. 
 
 715. De<i» Holmfs.~\ Have not 30U any understanding with other schools on this 
 matter? — The teachers are now trj-iiig to have an undcr.<tandii;g that, when a child 
 applies for atlmission into a school, the receipt for the fees from the last school will be 
 ilemanded. 
 
 716. Dr. Brrry.'\ It is quite possible that the names of some children may appear 
 on the roll of more than one school, is it not ? — I should think so, in the \\ ay I have just 
 mentioned. 
 
 717. Bfiv. Copfzee.2 In visiting the congregation, I suppose, you find out whether 
 most of the children are at school or receive any kind of education ? — In my congrega- 
 tion I fancy nearly all the children are at schodl A great many of the boys and girls 
 belonging to my congregation go to the Roman Cathohe or the Normal schools. 
 
 718. Dr. Berri/.^ Is it the fact that a kind of arbitrarily bouuded district is 
 assigned to your congregatiiui, from which v'ou may draw scholars ? — We can draw 
 scholars from any quarter. 
 
 719. Departmentally speaking, you are allowed to set up a school in a certain 
 district, or a cert.ain district is aj)pointed to you ? — I suppose the Superintendent- 
 (leneral of Education has to give consent, and he judges as to whether there is need 
 for a school in a district. That is the only regulation I know of in setting up a new 
 school.
 
 71 
 
 720. Is your school district at all co-terminous with your church district ? — Oiir The Rev. 
 school is nest door to the church ; it is built on, and is the same property. It is sup- "^" ■*« a"""' 
 posed to be for that district, but we may get children from any quarter. " 
 
 721. Rev. Coefzee.'\ I suppose in a place like Cape Town, the members of your Feb. 24th, 1891. 
 congregation are all over the town, are thej' not ? — Yes. 
 
 722. What is the u§e of having districts if you, situated at one extreme of the 
 town, get children from the other extreme ? — It is a principle to go by. I suppose 
 the large majority of the childi'en come from the neighbourhood of the church. 
 
 723. Jlr. Tlieron.~\ Seeing that according to your statement, the attendance in 
 your school is over ninety per cent., there being 118 on the roll and lOG average daily 
 attendance, is there any actual necessity for the appointment of a truancy officer ? — I 
 think the percentage of attendance has improved \evy much lately. At present the 
 result is very good, but in former years there used to be great complaints as to the 
 irregular attendance. 
 
 724. You say that it has improved of late ; may it not go on improving in the 
 same ratio, seeing that everyone acknowledges the necessity more and more of getting 
 education for their cliildren ?— I can hanlly understand how it is the percentage is so 
 very good, unless it be that the names are more frequently struck off when they cease 
 to attend. 
 
 725. You stated in your evidence that in visiting your congregation you have not 
 found many children wlio are not receiving education ? — In my congregation I do not 
 think there are many without elementary education. 
 
 726. From yom* point of view, and as far as your experience goes within your 
 own congregation, there is no necessity you think for the appointment of a truancy 
 
 officer ? — I distinguish between the children belonging to iny congregation and the , 
 
 children of colored people outside. 
 
 727. President.'] May not the good attendance in your school be accounted for by 
 the fact that the children are of a better class ? — I think so. 
 
 728. 2[y. Jlieron.] Wlmt accommodation have you in your school, have yoU room 
 for more children ?— Yes, we liope oiu- school will increase. I may say that it is 
 increasicg. 
 
 729. Suppose a truancy officer is appointi-J, how many more children can you 
 accommodate in your .school? — 200 altogether easily. 
 
 730. President.'] What aid do you receive from the Government ? — £75 a year. 
 
 731. If a truancy officer were appointed, would you be prepared to take in any 
 child that was brought to j-ou, even if the parents coidd not pay ? — We could not take 
 more than a limited number of free scholars. 
 
 732. What number could you take ? — At present the Government has power to 
 appoint so many free scholars, and it they exercised that power, it would be all we 
 could bear. 
 
 733. The Government does not practically exercise that power, does it ? — No. 
 
 734. "Wliat would be the number the Government could put in ? — I cannot say 
 what the proportion is. 
 
 735. So far as I under.stand from 3-ou, practically the undenominational school 
 sj-stem does not work in Cape Town ? — Not as a system. You have a school in con- 
 nection with the South Africp^n College. That is the onlj- real undenominational boys' 
 school. 
 
 736. Can you state why it is that the system has not taken root in Cape Town ? — 
 "artlv because the class of people who in villages support the public school, either live 
 out of Cape Town or else send their children to the college school; and the artizan 
 class are men who are not willing to become guarantors, so that we have not had a 
 constituency to start second or thii'd class schools. 
 
 737. Where does that class who would otherwise start second or third class schools, 
 send tlieir children? — A great many of the chililren go to the E^man Catholic ami 
 Normal schools. 
 
 738. Then the Eoman Catholics virtually educate a good many of your childi-eu ? 
 — Decidedly. 
 
 739. 1)0 you see any objection to that? — I do. The Roman Catholics profess not 
 to teach religion, but the" children of Protestants are present during religious instruction ; 
 and I constantly hear of young children coming home and praying to the Virgin, and 
 things of that sort, to which I decidedly object. Though they are not taught directly, 
 they are in the same room, and listen while the Koman Catholic religious instruction 
 is going on. 
 
 740. How is it the Homan Catholics can do what you cannot do, namely, supply 
 education more cheaply ? — I can only account for it by the fact that they get good 
 teachers for very low salaries. 
 
 741 . You think it is desirable to remedy the present state of things ? — Yes, of course.
 
 72 
 
 The Rev. 742. How would you do it '■( — I confess it is a difficult (luestion to answer. 
 
 M a"' ' l-V'"). How I'ould you iiuku the jncseut uudeiiomiuatioual system more workable 
 
 here in Cape Town tliau it seems to be ':' How coidd you introduce into Cape Town'a 
 
 Feb. iith. 1801. number of second and third class undenominational schools, because they seem to be 
 the want. You linve a first class public undenominational school, and mission schools, 
 but second and third class schools seem to be wanting ? — I tlriidv it would bo difficult. 
 The only wa^' woid'l be by dividing Cape Town into districts and allowing grants for 
 each district. 
 
 744. And who is to work them ? — An effort would need to be made in each 
 district to get a body of guarantors. 
 
 74"). What do you think is the best, that voluntary guai-antors should come 
 forward and guarantee to jia^- any deficiency that there ma}' be in the school, or that 
 a rate shotdd be levied in the district to meet any deficiency ? — In a place lilie Cape 
 Town, where there is such a largo mixed popidation, the ratepaying system would be 
 (lie only certain means of accomplishing it. 
 
 746. Mr. Eoirini.'l What do aou think of an Educational School Board for Cape 
 Town ? — I think such a system as thej' have in Port Elizabeth would work well, if 
 they had the funds. 
 
 747. There they give effect to the undenominational system, and do what you 
 could do here if you wished ? — It may be that at Port Elizabeth people are more awake 
 to the necessity for education. It is a more Eui-op)ean community than Cape Town. 
 
 748. J^fi: Cocfzi'e.'] Is not one of the reasons why Cape Town does not go in 
 much for these undenominational schools simply because there are so many old 
 established private schools where good instruction is obtained, and people do not see 
 
 * the necessity of having other schools ? — People send their children to lioman Catholic 
 
 schools because they say they really cannot get any other schools for them, especially 
 girls. European parents have told me that it was much against their wish to send 
 their girls to Komau Catholic schools, but, they said, the}' had no alternative, for they 
 could not afford to send them to an expensive school like the Good Hope Seminary or 
 Mrs. Percival's. 
 
 749. You are refen-ing to persons of limited means!' — Yes; they said they had 
 no alternative if they wished to have their daughters properly educated. 
 
 750. J//'. ThcroH.'] Then in order to provide a better class education they are 
 obliged to send them to Eonian CathoHc schools ^ — Yes. Protestant parents are now 
 beginning to send their chddi'en to the Normal College school. 
 
 751. Mf. Boiran.'] Would you be in favour of aiding voluntary schools in Cape 
 Town ? — I think it woidd involve great danger to the public school system. 
 
 752. Do you think that the South African College school supjilies the educational 
 wants of the white jiopulation of Cape Town ^ — Not the wants of the pooi'er European 
 boys. 
 
 753. Rvv. Moovrres.'] Why do you think that voluntary schools would be a source 
 of danger to the public school system ? — If the public system is to be carried out, it 
 will have to be united, and if the voluntary schools get grants, they can compete 
 successfully with the pablic scliools. 
 
 754. Piesidoif. \ Would there be any objection to have the two systems side by 
 bide, the Government giving aid to some voluntary schools, and at the same time 
 initiating a system of public schools which should be sujiported out of the rates ? — So 
 far as I see, both sv.-tems would not succeed. 
 
 755. Y''ou must have one or tLe other ? — I think so. The voluntary schools are 
 more for the well-to-do class of the community. 
 
 756. But suppose the voluntary schools received some aid from Government in 
 proportion to the work the}^ are doing, upon condition that they received a certain 
 number of pupils assigned b}' the Government frorii among the poorer classes ; could 
 not some of the voluntarj- schools work in the direction of aiding the education of the 
 poor, where they do not do it now ? — I prefer to aid the poor tlirough the public 
 schools. You cannot plead poverty for the class of children that go to the voluntary- 
 schools. 
 
 757. Dr. Berri/.'] I understand you to say that if it .should be re.solved to annex 
 these mission schools to the system of general jiuljlic education, you would offer no 
 objection ?— I think not ; I think we would willingly have our school transferred into 
 a fourth class public undenominational school. 
 
 758. Prcnideiit.'] What would you do with j'our buildings ; would you give them 
 to these managers for nothing 1-' — I cannot saj' what my managers would tlunk about 
 that. I shoidd not like to pledge mj-self. 
 
 759. Dr. Dcrri/.^ Do you think that other mission schools might be transferred 
 with equal facility Y — I am not certain. I can only say that I believe most of the 
 churches in Cape Town feel the mission schools to be a considerable bui-den.
 
 73 
 
 760. So that, generally speaking, as far as your knowledge goes, you think there '^^'^ ^'■• 
 is need for a change in that respect ? — The mission schools would be glad to get '^' ^^ ^^'"''' 
 increased grants. _" '. 
 
 TBI. Dean Holmes.'] Do you think, generally speaking, that they would be ^eb. 24tli, isoi. 
 adverse to handing over their school to such a system ? — I do not think so, generally 
 speaking. 
 
 762. Presulent.'] The Eoman Catholic schools and the Church of England schools 
 seem to do a great deal more work in that dii-ection than your chm-ch does, judging by 
 what you have just stated ; do yoa think they would prefer the present system of 
 mission schools Avith a little more aid to the undenominational system ? — I have no 
 doubt the Roman Catholics would prefer the present system, and take as much more 
 aid as they could get. 
 
 763. What steps, in your opinion, should be taken to give the Boards of Manage- 
 ment perpetual succession, and provide for the tenm'e of public school property l"* — I 
 have had no experience in that respect. The South African College School is under a 
 special Act of Parliament. 
 
 764. I take it that you are in favour of what is called a School Board ? — I am in 
 favour of the public school system. 
 
 765. Do you think the ratepayers should be called upon to pay any deficiency 
 that may exist ? — Yes, I think so, in towns especially. I think it would be a most 
 successful system. 
 
 766. Do you think that all denominations would ultimately work under that 
 system ? — I think that many would. I do not say all. The Eoman Catholics and 
 some of the Church of England congregations might not. 
 
 767. Ei;v. Coetzee.~\ Do not you think tliat it would be unfair to the Eoman 
 Catholics, who prefer to have denominational schools, to have to pay a tax in aid of 
 other schools ? — The public school system is of course a compromise between purely 
 secular education and each church teaching its own denominational doctrines ; and I 
 think the Roman Catholics would have to put up with the interests of the great 
 majority being consulted in the system. 
 
 768. Premie lit.'] But what they would say practically is this : "We wiU not go to 
 your undenominational schools, and yet we are taxed for that purpose ; we have oiu- 
 owu denominational schools, and support then ; and in our denominational schools 
 we virtually teach the waifs and strays, therefore we do public work ; and yet, while 
 doing this work, the work of tlxe Government really, you wish to put on us a heavier 
 burden by taxing us directly for the support of undenominational schools. Is not 
 that so ? — They are not educating the waifs and strays ; they are educating a class 
 who pay fair fees, not the poorest mission class, but the children of artisans and 
 workmen. 
 
 769. Wliere are the poorer class of children being educated ? — ^I think they will 
 be foimd in such mission schools as St. Stephen's and the Gesticht, in Long-street. 
 
 770. And in many of the Church of England schools also ? — Yes. 
 
 771. The same argument might apply there. We do not want the Eoman 
 Catholics to educate these children, if the Government will erect schools that wiU meet 
 tlieu' wants. What the Eoman Catholics say is, " We are here, and we are citizens. 
 AVe will not go to undenominational schools, as we feel oiu- conscience prevents us. 
 Therefore, if you pass such a law, we will simply pay the tax and go to' our own 
 schools as we do now. We feel you are doiug us a ■wrong, but we will submit to it." 
 How woidd you meet that argument 'i — Of course that is a question which the Eoman 
 Catholics are raisiug in America and elsewhere. The question is, whether our public 
 school system is to be destroyed on that account, and my answer is, that there is a. 
 conscience clause, and no one is compelled to receive religious instruction at a public 
 school against their will. 
 
 772. But the Eoman Catholics sa.y, oiu* conscience prevents us from sending our 
 children to a school where religion is not taught in some form Y — Of com-se religion 
 is permitted, although the Eoman Catholics would not take advantage of it ; but there 
 are Eoman Catholics whc go to the South African College. 
 
 773. Dean Holmes.'] You are awaie that in Enghiud the Eoman Catholics have to 
 pay rates and yet maintain their own schools ? — Yes ; I believe so. 
 
 774. Rei\ Moon-ees.'] Do not you think if aid is given to voluntary schools, 
 tliat woidd utterly destroy our present system, because in the country districts the 
 Dutch Eeformed Church has a majority, aud they would' simply make their schools 
 into Church schools ? — I think that to allow rival schools in coimtry vilhiges woidd 
 destroy the public schools. 
 
 77-5. PreMent.^ But in country villages where the Datcli Eeformed Chiirch is 
 now iu the majority, if j'ou had the'iu-esent undenominational system working in a 
 denominational character, would you not vutually have a denominational Dutch
 
 74 
 
 T^v^^^ I Church school carried on under the undenominational principle, because the majority 
 M.a"'" " *^^ Dutch ? — You cannot help tlio majority of the inhabitants being of a certain 
 
 denomination, but the Superintendent-General of Education should prevent such 
 
 Feb. 24tli, 1891. gchool in any way being denominafional. 
 
 776. Have you considered at all the question as to what further facilities can be 
 afforded for giving instruction in both the English and Dutch languages ?•— I have 
 thought of the question a little, but I do not know that I can throw any real light 
 upon it. I think there is a great desire on the part of English parents to make 
 their boj's learn Dutch, and indeed their own self-interest will, to a very large extent, 
 make them learn it. My boys learn Dutch. Many act thus from self interest without 
 any compulsion in the matter, and I would be in favour of leaving it so. 
 
 777. Mj-. Tli('roti.~\ From a general point of view, do not you think that in giving 
 instruction to any cliild, whetlier J^uglish or Dutch, the first duty is to give the child 
 instruction in the mother tongue ? — Where there is a desire, there should be full 
 liberty to do so. 
 
 778. Does it not develope the mind and help the child on to learn foreign 
 languages with greater ease ? — I cannot speak from experience as to that. If it is an 
 educational opinion that certain children would learn bettor through the medium of 
 Dutch, there should be perfect liberty to teach them through the Dutch language. 
 
 Mr. A. W. HoueU examined. 
 
 Mr.- 770. President.'] I believe you are Chief Traffic Manager on the Cape Govern- 
 
 A. W. HowHi. ment Railways ?— Yes. 
 
 Feb. •24th 1891. ~"^'^- ^o\x have been a good deal in the Eastern Province, and have a knowledge 
 
 of the working of railwa3'S throughout the Colony ? — Yes. 
 
 781. Are tliere facilities provided to meet the educational wants of children of 
 persons employed on the line ? — There are facilities in a measure, which only paitly 
 meet the wants of the employes along the line. For instance, there are schools 
 established at certain centres, such as Alicedale, Middelbittg Koad, Naauwpoort, De 
 Aar, Colesberg, Beaufort West, Laingsburg, Touws River, Worcester, and the various 
 places between Worcester and Cape Town. 
 
 782. Dean Uolines.'] Axe these what you call station schools ? — They receive a 
 grant from the Government through the Education Department, in proportion to the 
 number of childien. 
 
 783. Do you think that greater facilities should be given ? — I think that every 
 facility should be given. There are many childi-en of employes who do not at present 
 receive the benefit of education, simply because they are not in a position to go to these 
 centres which I have already named. The difficulty is, how are these children to be 
 reached ? I have thought over the question for many years, and taken great interest 
 in it, but I see that the difficulties are very great. As far as we can, we utilise the 
 train service, and stop the trains at the various platelayers' cottages, taking the children 
 to the various centres free of charge, and bringing them home again ; but there are 
 some cottages from which it woidd be too far to take the children, and the train ser- 
 vice does not suit in all cases. 
 
 784. Where the train service does not suit, and the stations are too far off, what 
 Would you do r" — I have thought whether it would not be jiossible for the Government, 
 by way of experiment, to build some kind of education carriage, in which a school- 
 master might travel from point to point and instruct the children, staying a certain 
 time at one. place, and then going on again ; but then comes the difficulty, what are 
 you going to do with the children who are left behind ^ they would forget probably 
 all they had learnt. The only real solution that I can see is for the Government to 
 build more schools at these smaller centres. 
 
 785. In addition to the schools you have mentioned, have you not a system of 
 station schools under your department ? — Those are station schools — they are practi- 
 cally railway camps for the employes. The Government have helped us very con- 
 siderably by providing buidings, furniture, and so on. 
 
 786. Wo have heard that there are about thirty schools altogether available, spread 
 over the railwaj' system, the Government providing the buildings and furniture, and a 
 room for the teacher 't — That is only in a few places.. At Laingsburg, for instance, the 
 Government have not provided a room. It is provided in that ease by the Lutheran 
 Church, and the Church feed the children for a very small amount. The coloured 
 children I refer to. 
 
 787. Mr. Roivan.'] How are the funds provided, irrespective of what are voted 
 thi-ough the Education Department ? — The principal men at these centres have con- 
 stiuted themselves guarantors. 
 
 788. The money is not provided out of railway funds ? — No.
 
 75 
 
 789. Dean RoMcs.] Is nothing contributed out of railway funds ? — No ; not Mr. 
 
 for the schools. Only the use of the room and furniture. ' -'• '*'• ■«»'«<'• 
 
 790. Ptesident.] Then there is a Government contribution ?— Yes. Feb. 24th7 1831 
 
 791. They would come under the undenominational system of third class schools, 
 I suppose ? — Yes. 
 
 792. Eev. Coetzpp.'] Is there any difficulty in getting a sufficient number of 
 pupils together to establish a school ? — Of course that is a very great difficulty in 
 isolated places, and some special means should be adopted to roach the children living 
 there. 
 
 793. Dean Holmes.'\ Have you considered any scheme for boarding schools for the 
 benefit of these children Y — Yes, that has been thought of for several years. While I 
 was at Port Elizabeth, I sent a circular round to all the staff, and I must confess I 
 was very mucli astonished to find how readily the men came forward and offered to 
 give as much as they could out of their wages in support of these boarding schools. 
 They could not pay the whole cost, but they were willing to contribute towards any 
 deficiency. 
 
 794. Did you contemplate the Railway Department assisting ? — I did. 
 
 795. President']. What would be the cost of keeping a boy at such a boarding 
 school ? — I should say about £20 to £25 a year. 
 
 796. Would not the employes see that they could save the food of the child 
 while he was away at boarding school. Could not they contribute two-thirds if the 
 Government contributed the other third ? — I do not think so. The food for one child 
 would not make so much difference when it is at home ; and if a man has four or five 
 children, it would be a difficult thing for him to send two or three to boarding school. 
 For a man getting say five shillings a day it would be impossible. 
 
 797. Suppose the Government paid half the cost, would that make it possible ? — 
 If i remember right, the men were willing to pay from Is. to is. 6d. a week for each 
 child, and that would not amount to veiy much. 
 
 79 S. Dr. Berry.'] Would it help if an arrangement was made for giving a 
 capitation grant in respect to the children of platelayers, so that they could attend 
 private farm schools in the neighbourhood of the cottages ? — The farm schools in many 
 instances are miles away, and the children could not walk so far. 
 
 709. But if a farm school was within reasonable distance, would it not help a man 
 if a capitation grant were given by the Education Department, £2 or £3 per annum 
 say ? — It all depends upon w]jat class of children the farm school consist of. If there 
 are only the farmer's own children I question whether he would Uke the children of 
 coloured people attending. 
 
 800. Could not some of the children go to these private farm schools and get a 
 very fair education r" — Undoubtedly, if they are within the neighbourhood of the farm ; 
 but it may just happen that at that particular platelayer's cottage there may not be 
 any children. 
 
 . 801. Pre-iidenf.] Is there a capitation grant allowed to children of emploj'es on 
 the railway Y — Not that I am aware of. 
 
 802. Would it not be a wise thing to give it; might it not be an additional 
 inducement for children to attend school ? — I would recommend any plan whereby 
 children could have the means to go to school. 
 
 803. In the Eastern part of the country where I come from, the complaint is that 
 the farm schools are available, but the grants in aid are not available ? — On the 
 Western System, the platelayers are mostly coloiu'ed people ; on the Eastern System they 
 are white, and some of them are highly respectable, and persons who have received a fair 
 education at home. A great many of them are Scotch, and they feel very keenly tiie 
 want of facilities for educating theii- children. It is for that class I am more anxious 
 than for the coloured class, because some of the coloured people will not avail them- 
 selves of advantages actually close to their doors. It is for the white children more 
 particularly that I am pleading. 
 
 804. Rer. Coefzee.] Are you acquainted with the facilities afforded for educalion 
 on the Eastern line ? — Yes. 
 
 80o. Dr. Berry.'] Suppose a capitation grant of £3 per annum were given for the 
 childj-en of these platelayers and others along the line, it would be a considerable help, 
 would it not Y — Yes, I may say that if farm schools were started in the neighbourhood 
 of the platelayers" cottages, the men would be only too thankful to send their children 
 there. 
 
 806. Suppose there were two platelayers' cottages pretty close together, and there 
 were seven or eight children between the two, there would be say £24 a year in capi- 
 tation grants, and a fair teacher might be obtained for that ; would not that assist the 
 Railway Department a good deal ? — I think it would. On the Western line the plate- 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] L
 
 Feb. 24th, 1891. 
 
 76 
 
 Ml" layers' cottages are five miles apart, on the Eastern line four. To give yon an in- 
 
 . ■ •"' "" • stance, I may say that quiti; recently they have started schools at Middleton and Tafel- 
 Feb. 24th, 1891. berg, whore there arc very few railway people. The stationmasters are the only per- 
 sons who have childion at both places, and yet we find that farmers' children come to 
 the railway stations, and they have started a system of guarantee among themselves. 
 
 807. That shows the farmers are not averse to it ? — Not at all. In both those 
 cases the Railway Dejvart.neut has come forward and given a room free. 
 
 808. President. ] Is there anything else you have to suggest on this subject ^ — I would 
 strongl}- lu-ge that if this capitation grant is available for the class of children in ques- 
 tion, it should be generally known, and the Government should do all in its power in 
 providing school rooms. It is not only for the benefit of the children of railway 
 employes, but wherever there is a school there are bound to be two or tliree farms in 
 the neighbom'hood, and the farmers' childi'en would participate in its advantages. 
 
 800. Iter. Jloorree-s.l Are you aware that a circular has been published relative to 
 the facilities alfordcd to railway employes for the education of their children ? — Yes; I 
 have seen it, and since this circular was issued, the two places I have named, Middleton 
 and Tafelberg, have availed themselves of its provisions. 
 
 810. Mr. T/irron.'\ Do you not think we had better try the scheme fuither and see 
 how it works ? — Yes; and I think if these fai'm schools could be started in the neighbour- 
 hood of the platelayers' cottagns, it would assist greatly. The cii'cular in question 
 does not touch the whole of the railway emj>loyes. I want to reach more particularly 
 the white people. 
 
 licr. O. MiiUer examined. 
 Rev. c. MuUer. 811. Rer. Moorree.'i.'] I believe you are the minister of the Dutch Reformed Church 
 
 in Bree-street ? — Yes. 
 
 812. How long have you been so ? — Nearly four years. 
 
 813. Have you had a good deal to do with education •* — Yes. 
 
 814. Have you seen the questions submitted to the Commission for consideration ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 815. Do you understand the working of the mission schools in Cape Town ? — Yes. 
 
 816. Do you find the attendance at those schools good, or otherwise r* — It is very 
 irregidar. It is one of our chief complaints. 
 
 vS17. Have you considered any plan for remcd3'ing this irregularity of attendance ? 
 — Wo have tried several plans already. One plan that we adopted for a time was to 
 close the doors at ten o'clock and not let the children come in, but send them home and 
 see whether that would not iutiuence the parents, but it did not do much good. The 
 teachers were not very strict in enforcing this rule. I spoke to Archdeacon Lightfoot, 
 who is in the same neighbourhood, and asked him whether t\iQy would adopt the same 
 plan, so that the -children should not go from our school to his, and he promised to 
 issue the same instructions. 
 
 818. Are you in favour of a system of compulsory education ? — Yes, if you can' 
 provide sufficient schools for aU the children. 
 
 819. Woidd you be in favour of it in large towns like Cape Town? — Yes; I 
 should say in all the chief towns, if you can provide a cheap means of education, or 
 even free education. 
 
 820. Do you thiidc if such a system were introduced in Cape Town there would 
 be sufficient accommodation in the schools that exist now? — I am almost certain there 
 is not accommodation enough in the present schools. 
 
 821. Do you think the employment of a truancy or attendance officer would do 
 any good ? — Sir Langham Dale had that idea, and to me it appears that it would have 
 some influence on the iiTegular attendance of children. 
 
 822. Your idea is that if a s^'stem of compulsory education were introduced in the 
 larger towns you would have to make provision for destitute children ? — I do not know 
 about destitute children ; there must be schools sufficient. I said to Sir Langham 
 Dale some time ago that I thought if a truancy officer was appointed we shouM have 
 our schools filled in no time. You woidd fin I a great man}' children outside, and 
 there would not be room in the scliools for them ; but if we had more schools and more 
 assistance from Grovernment, then I think eomftulsory education would do a great deal 
 of good. I fail to see why it should not. 
 
 823. You have a pretty large number of Mahommedans in your school, have you 
 not ?— Yes. 
 
 824. Do they stay at school long ? — No ; not very long. I find that our mission 
 school is more for the Mahommedans than for our own children. The poorer classes 
 avoid the school on account of the Mahommedans ; they do not like to associate with 
 them. Against 27 Christian children, as we call them, we had at one time 113 Mahom-
 
 77 
 
 mcdaus. They stay for a short time, until they pass the third Standard, and then they *«' • ^- •"'""«■. 
 leave the school geuerally. That is my experience in the school with which I have to j-^j, .^^ jgg, 
 do. 
 
 825. Do you think that they leave at that age on account of denominational 
 teaching? — No; tbey have no .scruples about denominational teaching ; they consider 
 their education tiuished, as far as tliey want to go, I believe. 
 
 •S26. To what cause do 3'ou think the ii-regularity of attendance is due ; is it 
 because the fees are too high, or is it on account of truancy ? — There are several causes. 
 The parents, for instance, want the children at home for a couple of hours in the 
 morning to mind the baby, or they go out on some errand. They have to pay by the 
 week, and if they remain away say for a couple of days they do not like to pay the full 
 fees for the week, and they stay away till the next week. There are several causes. 
 
 827. Do they pay the fees weekly ? — Yes. 
 
 828. l)r. Bcrnj.~\ Have you made enquiries as to what amount of extra accom- 
 modation would be needed in Cape Town for all the children if compulsory attendance 
 was enforced ? — I have not made any calculation, but I think we should require twice 
 the number of schools that we have. 
 
 829. Do you think that your church would agree to find anything like a fair pro- 
 portion of that accommodation ? — The mission grants are so very small that we have 
 to put our hands very deeply into oui- pockets to find the teachers' salaries, and besides 
 that, we have to provide buildings. My churchwardens have just bought a building 
 again in Rose-street, and we intend to convert it into a mission school. 
 
 830. Do you think you have reached the limit of what your church would be 
 willing to do in the matter of mission schools in Cape Town ? — No, I would not say that. 
 
 831. You think that a good deal more help might be derived from your church 
 than what has been given abeady ? — Yes; if we get more assistance from the Government. 
 
 832. Does it depend upon that ? — Yes. 
 
 833. Have you ever made application to the church for more assistance ? — No. 
 Whenever I make application, I get help. I have lately got another school quite close 
 to my church. 
 
 834. Has your church built that school too ? — Yes. It is quite a new school, 
 and cost £800. 
 
 835. Did you get no help from the Government in erecting that school ? — None 
 whatever. With all our buildings we have not had a penny from the Government for 
 their erection. 
 
 836. Mr. Tlieron.'\ What do you mean by in-egular attendance, is it in regard to 
 tlie children on the school books ? — It is the daily attendance more that we have to 
 complain of. A good many of the children are kept at home, especially when the 
 Mahommedan feasts are on. There are something like 220 on the books, and you will 
 have an attendance perhaps of 100 or 140, or something like that some days. 
 
 837. Do you mean to say that if a truancy officer were appointed he would be able 
 to compel all these children to come to school ? — I do not say that he would do all that, 
 but a great deal would be done in improving the attendance. 
 
 838. Do you find that the indifferent attendance arises from not being able or 
 willing to pay the fees of the school ? — I daresay that a good manj' who do not come 
 to school miglit raise that objection, but I do not find it in the case of those who attend. 
 The only thing is that when they have stayed away a couple of days they do not very 
 often return till the next week, so as to avoid payment of the fees. 
 
 839. Suppose that education were cheapened, would not that help in some measure 
 to improve the attendance in your school, and do away with the irregularity ? — It is 
 very cheap already. 
 
 840. But woidd it not help to some extent if education were cheapened ? — I am 
 afraid that unless you can compel the children to come it will not help very much. I 
 am speaking ot mission schools. I think that in other schools, education should be 
 cheapened a good deal. For instance, we find this, that the better class white children 
 who do not like to mix with the Malays, go to the Eoman Catholic schools, as they are 
 cheap. We find that while we are keeping school for the Mahtjramedans, the Roman 
 Catholics are keeping school for our children ; that is the dilfi idty, and it is chiefly 
 because of the cheap education they can give. The education in the other schools is 
 much too expensive, I think. 
 
 «41. Have you many white children in your mission school? — Not very many. 
 That is the difliculty ; the more respectable class do not like t6 send their children, as 
 they mix with Malays and others. 
 
 842. You said that if the Government appointed a school officer you would require 
 more school accommodation. Suppose fourth class undenominational public schools 
 were established by Government for the better class of children, where a superior 
 
 L 2
 
 78 
 
 Rtr. c. ilulltr. education was prnviiied, would you then have school accomraodatiou enough ? — We 
 Feb. 21th, 1891. have a third class solmol now, for which we receive a grant of £(iO for tlu' first teacher, 
 and we spent X'SOOin erecting the building, and we are getting back our white children 
 in that waj', as wo nDake education clu>ap. 
 
 N43. Drnn Jfalmrf.'] You stated that the attendance in your school was very 
 irregular. Wli:it is the lowest age at which 3"on admit a (iiild r* — They come very 
 young, as young as four years, I believe. 
 
 844. Do j'ou find that the irregularity' is more apparent among children of that 
 tender age, or when they are older 't — It is more apparent among the older ones. The 
 infant department is nearly always quite full. 
 
 845. Have you found that the irrogularitj' of attendance is caused through the 
 mixed races that come to school 't — Not the irregularity so much as the non-ottendanee 
 of the white children. 
 
 846. Then woidd you be in favour of separating the white from the coloured 
 children in the schools ? — Very much so. I think the influence of mixing the two 
 races together is ver^' detrimental. 
 
 847. You said that you were in favour of compulsory education if sufficient schools 
 were provided, and you further stated that j'ou thought twice the number at present 
 attending could be brought in, have you any data 't — No. 1 am sjieaking of my district, 
 which is very populous. There are several schools there, and you can always see as 
 many children outside as there are in the schools. That is how I estimate it. Mr. 
 Dreyer has, I believe, between 300 and 400 children in his school. We have over 200, 
 and Mr. Lightfoot has over 200, and these schools are all within I should say half a 
 mile of each other. 
 
 848. Are you aware that at present there is accommodation for 7,000 school 
 children in Cnpe To-nu, and only 6,000 attend ? — I thought there were even fewer 
 children in attendance than G,000. 
 
 849. With regard to the appointment of an attendance officer, do you think that 
 people would resent his visits at their houses in order to find out whether the children 
 were receiving instruction or not ? — I do not know. My idea was that this officer would 
 simply look out in the streets for children loitering about when they ought to be in school. 
 
 850. That would only catch the children wandering about, not those who were 
 kept at home, would it 't — I think if such an officer were once appointed, people would 
 soon fall in with the idea. 
 
 851. Jlr. I!oira».'\ Do you think that this irregularity of attendance is caused by 
 the demands of labour, or just through the idle propensities of the children ? — I cannot 
 say that it is through the demands nf labour. It is what I would call the indifference 
 of the parents. They do not think that a child loses by staying half a day at home, or 
 two or three days in fact. If the parents required a child for a little work they would 
 not put themselves out to do it, but just keep the child from school. 
 
 852. Do you think the number on the bnoks in your own school represents the full 
 number of children belonging to yijur district who would attend school, or do j'ou 
 consider there are still a good many in the streets P — Malays, certainly there are. 
 
 853. Frcvi/rxt.] You stated that the iiTcgularity was caused partly through the 
 parents and partly by the children ; if the parents were obliged to pay monthly 
 or for the whole term instead of weekly as now, whether the children attended all the 
 time or not, would not that do away with the system of keeping children away from 
 school in order to save the weekly payments ? — That is what we are trying to establish 
 in our new school just now, the system of quarterly payments. 
 
 854. You think it would be a good thing, to make them pay quarterly ? — Yes ; 
 certainly. 
 
 855. Then \uth regard to the labour of the children, if they were forced to go to 
 school up to a certain age. say eleven years, would not that prevent the parents keeping 
 them at home ? — The parents make use of the children to run errands and so on when 
 they are still very young. 
 
 856. Co you think the Malays and others would resent the visit of an attendance 
 officer when he went from house to house to see whether or not the children attended 
 school ? — I think that some would resent it ; but I doubt if such au officer would 
 succeed in finding out the truth, there would always be an excuse ready. 
 
 857. Do you not think the appointment of an attendance ofiicer would be a good 
 thing, seeing how important this question of education is? — I am afraid we might 
 venture too far in that direction. If the children were kept from the streets in the 
 first instance, I think that wotdd help materially. 
 
 858. But you attribute the irregularity of attendance to the fact of the parents 
 wanting to save money and using the labour of their children ; do not you think there- 
 fore the appointment of an attendance officer would be a good thing. The clergy 
 can exercise a good deal of influence over their congregations, and they might lu-ge
 
 79 
 
 upon parents to send their children to school ? — It is difficult to say whether the Sf- c. MuIUt. 
 
 appointment of an attendance officer would be resented or not, as it is altoe-ether a new „ ^ 
 
 thing. " • -*'"• ''^^• 
 
 859. In England such officers can go from house to house and make enquiries ? — 
 A good many people would not resent it. I would not myself, for instance. 
 
 860. Lo you consider it an experiment worth trying? — It might be. 
 
 861. If the children are away from school, do you think the parents should be 
 called upon to pay a small fine unless they can show a good cause ? — I think that plan 
 would answer. 
 
 862. Do you think it would aid in securing regular attendance if rewards or 
 bonuses were given to children attending so many days during the year 'i — We are 
 doing that now. Every year we have a feast for the children and we give them 
 presents. 
 
 863. You say that the irregularity of attendance is such that some system of 
 compulsion ought to be adopted ? — Yes. 
 
 86-1. Yoa say that you have lately started a tliird class undenominational school ; 
 there are not many third class undenominational schools in the place, are there ? — No. 
 
 865. In fact, the mission schools in all the churches have done the educational 
 work for the poorer classes, have they not ?— Yes. 
 
 866. And you want to take out of these mission schools the better class of 
 children ? — Yes. 
 
 867. What do you think would be the best way of taking them out ; would it be 
 done by starting these fourth class undenominational public schools, or would it be 
 better for the State to give a larger contribation to the various il>^nominatious in aid of 
 the mission schools, so as to enable them to have more such schools ? — The great thing 
 is to separate the two races, and have one school for the white and another for the 
 coloured. We tried that at Greorge, and the attendance was very good there. 
 
 868. Would it not be better to have a fourth class undenominational public school 
 where the fees are a little higher, for the benefit of the white cliildren and the better 
 class coloured, who aim a little high, and leave the mission schools entirely for the 
 lower class coloured children ? — That is what we are trying to do. 
 
 869. That is what the fourth class undenominational school is meant for, is it 
 not ? — I do not believe in the undenominational character of the fourth class school. 
 
 870. Suppose you strike out the word " undenominational " ? — I dc not believe 
 these fourth class schools are sufficiently undenominational. I am afraid they Avill 
 become schools aided by the State, in which sectarianism will go on. A small 
 community, for instance, will get one or more of these f<jiu-th class schools and draw 
 away the children from the others, and so, at the expense of the State, proselytism will 
 be practised. 
 
 871. Biit is this not the case with regard to the mission schools? — Yes; to a 
 certain extent, but I should not care to see the foiu'th class schools established. 
 
 872. What is the difference betwotm a third and a fourth class undenominational 
 school ? — In the case of a fourth class undenominational school my clmrchwardens 
 a; ply for a grant and we get it ; in the thinl class undenominational school you have 
 to get certain guarantors and a committee is chosen. The public must have something 
 to say in the matter. 
 
 873. The fom-th class schools wouhl be imder the control of the Superintendent- 
 Greneral of Education, would they not, and tlaey would be inspected ? — Yes ; they are 
 inspected, but that is all. Nobody else has anything to say as to the management. 
 
 874. Can you say ho v it is that undenominational public schools in Cape Town, 
 with the exception of first class undenominational schools, have not grown and become 
 more numerous ? — I rgally cannot explain it ; it is strange I admit. I think it is 
 principally due to the fact that there are so many denominations in Cape Town. 
 
 875. Are there auj- undenominational schools in Cape Town ? — Yes ; there is the 
 Normal College School and the Good Hope Seminary. They are undenoiniuational. 
 
 876. iJcc. il/o/'iw.v.] What steps do you tliinlv should be taken to give Boards of 
 Management perpetual succession, and provide for the teum-e of public school property. 
 Are you in favour of School Boards, or have you any other system to propose ? — It is 
 one of the great drawbacks of midenominational schools that every three years you 
 must renew the committee of management. For instance, at the Grood Hope Seminary 
 we are just going to build on largely to the institution, ami it may be that at the 
 next election another committee will be chosen and they might not like to incur the 
 liability. 
 
 877. Will you give us your opinion as to the way in which these Boards should 
 be appointed ? — They should be elected by the public, I tliink. 
 
 878. By the ratepayers ? — Yes.
 
 80 
 
 {!■'■. c. Huiur. ,^79 ^jj(j ;,( connection with that I suppose you would do away with the guarantee 
 
 Feb 'Ith" 1891 systeiu. Would you not? — Yes; I tliink the Municipalities or Divisional Councils 
 should be madr- to pay the deficiencies. I was connected with schools at George and 
 Swellendam for some fourteen or fifteen years, and it was always one of the great 
 difficulties calling upon the guarantors constantly to pay up for deficiencies. The School 
 Board should send in an account of the deficiency to the Municipality or Divisional 
 Council, and then a rate should be levied. 
 
 880. Would not there be a danger of the ratepayers forcing the Boards to ])ractise 
 too much ecouomy, and thereby prejiulicing the scliools ? — There is that danger certainly. 
 
 881. Rer. Covizec^ What woidd you require as a qualification for members of the 
 Boards of Management ? — I think tliey must be men who are known to the public as 
 men who take an interest in education. 
 
 882. You think only their interest in education generally should qualify them for 
 the post ? — Yes ; at present it is so. I must confess I have not given the matter much 
 thouglit, but now we generally find men who take an interest in education elected on 
 the School Committee. 
 
 883. Under tlie present system the election takes place through the guarantors, 
 does it not ? — The public choose out of the guarantors. 
 
 884. Dr. Berr//.'] Do you think a place like Cape Town would be too large for one 
 Board to deal with school matters, or would j'ou like to see the town divided into 
 districts, each district having a Board ? — By dividing the town into districts you 
 might not get just the men you want at the head of the different Boards. If you could 
 form one large Board it would be better. They could, of course, appoint sub-com- 
 mittees. 
 
 885. Would you be in favour of giving that Board power to treat with religious 
 bodies who at present have mission or other schools in town, for the purchase of 
 buildings or the management of the scliools ? — I do not think that a Board would be able 
 to get these bmldiags. 
 
 886. But you would give them power to treat, would you not ? — Yes ; but I don't 
 see how they can do much in that way. The religious bodies have gone to a large 
 expense for years and years in establishing these buildings, and they would not like 
 just to surrender them for their present value. 
 
 887. I presume that tlie majority of these buildings are only of value for school 
 purposes, are they not r* — Yes. 
 
 888. And if a Board for the whole town were established and took the matter of 
 education thoroughly in hand, the probability is that the religious bodies would find a 
 good deal of their occupation gone, is it not ':■ — Yes ; it all depends upon the Boards. 
 If the Board satisfied all denominations, then I do not see that there wovdd be any 
 difficulty. 
 
 889. A Board of this kind should be elected for a term of years, should it not, or 
 a certain number of the members shoiild retire every year ? — I think it should be 
 elected for a number of years, certainly for a longer period than our present school 
 committees, although, if a couple of the members retired annually it would not matter so 
 much. If the Board was to be elected in the same way in which the Tovni Council is 
 now elected, I believe it would be an utter failure, and it would damage the whole 
 educational system if every coolie and Malay were to have a vote in the matter. 
 
 890. It was proposed, I think, by the Commission which sat in 1879, that only 
 such electors as could sign their name legiblj' should be allowed to vote for members 
 of the School Boards ; would you agree to some franchise of that kind? — Almost every 
 coolie can sign his name now, but I should not like to see every coolie vote for members 
 of the School Board. 
 
 891. To some extent it would be an educational test, would it not ? — I think the 
 test must be a good deal higher than that. 
 
 892. You would be in favour of some educational test for the School Board 
 electors ? — Yes. If you want to get an effective School Board it would be necessary, 
 I think. 
 
 893. Would you give that Board power to rate the town for school purposes ? — 
 Yes ; I would for the purpose of making up deficiencies. 
 
 894. You would only give them power to rate in case of a deficiency ? — Yes. I 
 do not know what powers would be entrusted to the Board. If the Board had power to 
 construct buildings wherever they were neeJeil, then, of course, the matter should fii'st 
 come before the ratepayers. In any other case I think the best way would be for the 
 Board to send in its aecoimt to the Town Council or Divisional Council, for that body 
 to fix the rate. 
 
 895. What do you think of such a proposal as this for meeting the expenses of 
 carrying on schools in towns : The Government to contribute one-half and the local 
 ratepayers and the fees to make up the other half ? — That is as it is at present.
 
 81 
 
 896. No ; the local ratepayers contribute nothing at present ? — You put the rate- -S"'- C- Muiitr. 
 payers in the place of the guarantors, that is the only <lifference. „ 
 
 897. The guarantors at present are only called upon to pay after there is a defi- ' ' ^*^^' '*"' 
 ciency, but the managers try to prevent a deficiency by having a high scale of fees. 
 
 Suppose it was considered advisable to lower the fees all round in these schools, would 
 you then be in favour of giving the Board power to levy a local rate and raise the fees 
 so as to equal the Government grant ? — -At present the Government does not give half. 
 In a first class school you get £100, and then the guarantors have to find £IoO, and in 
 addition to that, the house rent. I think the Govern-nent should be made to contribute 
 fully half, and then for the other half the ratepayers should be responsible when 
 the school fees do not make up the amount required. 
 
 898. Would it not do to fix the amount of the fees by statute, the contribution 
 from the local rates to equal the amount of the fees, and the two together to be equal 
 to the Government grant ; are you not in favour of that ?-— Yes. 
 
 899. Would you think it necessary to have any Government nominees on the 
 School Board if they are necessary ? — I would not have too many. 
 
 900. Do you think they would be necessary ? — As long as the Education Depart- 
 ment has control of the School Boards I do not know that it is necessary. 
 
 901. You have lived in the town and also in the country ; from what you know 
 of the people, do you think there would be any serious objection to a school rate Y — No ; 
 I do not think so. 
 
 902. Mr. Theron.^ Are the mission schools distinct from the undenominational 
 schools ? — Yes. 
 
 903. What is the difference between the two ? — In the mission schools you get a 
 grant from the Government and you do not give an equivalent, and in the undenomina- 
 tional schools you have to give more than an equivalent, because there is the house 
 rent to be added. 
 
 90-i. With regard to denominational teaching, are the mission schools sectarian or 
 unsectarian ? — I should say they are sectarian. When I say sectarian I do not mean 
 that the distinct doctrines of the church are necessarily taught. In our mission school 
 we read the Bible, and there is religious instruction, but we do not teach the doctrines 
 of the church in the school. 
 
 905. Would you place these mission schools under the Boards you were speaking 
 about ? — No ; I would not. 
 
 906. You would leave them out ? — Yes. 
 
 907. These Boards would only have control over undenominational Government 
 schools ? — Yes. 
 
 908. You are acquainted with the country districts ; suppose in a town like George 
 a Board were to be elected by the ratepayers, what sort of men are you likely to get 
 on that Board ? — Mj- idea is that the Board should be elected by the ratepayers in the 
 whole of the district, then you will get the best men. 
 
 909. You mean the most influential men ? — Yes. 
 
 910. Does it not very often happen that the most influential men in the district 
 are not men belonging to youi- congregation particidarly ? — In the districts I have been 
 in they were not ; it may be different in other places. 
 
 911. Is there not a danger of getting those men on the Boards, which you 
 jiropose, who may afterwards carry out the undenominational system to such an extent 
 that you would not quite like it ? — I am not proposing any Board ; I only give my 
 opinion. I think the present system is a very good one if 3'ou could only give 
 perpetuity to the School Committees, that is all. I do not say that the present system 
 ■will not answer, but if we are to have School Boai-ds, then I say in that case I should 
 like to see them elected by the ratepayers. The Divisional Council members are 
 elected by the ratepayers, and my experience is, that you generally find the best men 
 in the district are elected as members. 
 
 912. People in the country are very averse to having rates levied. Take the case 
 of a fanner having a school on his farm, do you think he would like to be taxed for a 
 school in the village Y — He would object to it. 
 
 913. So that there is oue in.stance in which you find a farmer would resent paying 
 taxes for schools, particularly when those schools are not spread over the district 
 according to his ideas ? — Yes ; if they do not supply the wants of the district. If in a 
 certain ward of the district the school is not sufficiently central, tlie farmers are 
 compelled to have private schools on their farms, and they would not like to be taxed 
 when the School Board cannot give them any assistance for their schools. 
 
 914. Suppose they elect members for these Boards, what would they demand from 
 their members ; what would be the hustings cry, if they were compelled to pay taxes Y — 
 There would only be a few having these fai'm schools.
 
 Feb. 34th, IH'Jl. 
 
 82 
 
 Sev. c. Mutirr. 915. Yoli do iiot mt'iin to say that they will elect men who will promiso to spend 
 
 as much as tlify can <iii education in the district, do yon ? — No. I do not see so much 
 danger. If you look at tlie 1 Hvi.sumal Councils, you find tiuit tlipy seek the best men. 
 They do not always elect a man wlio says he will yote for n reduction of the rate. 
 
 916. If there are two candidates, one of whom promises to practise economy, and 
 the other to spend, which of the two would they be likely to elect ? — If the School 
 Board was sjiending a large amount and they considered it unnecessary, then certainly 
 the man wlio is for ei'onomy would gain the day. 
 
 917. Whether he be the best man or not y — Yes. 
 9]S. Would you have the Municipality represented on the Boards — I do not see 
 
 why they sliould be represented. 
 
 919. Might it not happen that the School Board would contribute towards the 
 village school, and leave the country to suffer ^ — Yes ; there is that danger. 
 
 920. And would it not be well in that case to have the Municipality represented 
 on the Board ? — If )''0u have a large Board elected by the whole district, there is 
 scarcely a chance of its spending too much on the town, because the country members 
 will be suffi( ient to prevent it. 
 
 921. Would not you equalise the number? — No; I woidd not do that unless the 
 town is a very large one. 
 
 922. Suppose 3-ou give the country more representation than you give the town, 
 might not they spend all the money in the country, instead of supporting the town 
 school ? — Tliat is not my experience. The school committees with which I have 
 worked were nearly all country members, and while they were trying to do tlieir duty 
 for education in the country', they were very willing to go in for having a good school 
 in the town. 
 
 923. You would like to have the Board representative of the villages and the 
 country ? — Yes. 
 
 924. Should you like to have the Grovernment represented on the Board, as it con- 
 tributes half of the money r* — Yes ; it might be represented by the Civil Commissioner 
 or some other officer. 
 
 925. Dfian Holmes.'] I think you said you would approve of a general Board for 
 a large town like Cape Town, but you would object to all the schools being placed 
 under its control. Should you object provided the Board allowed each school to have 
 its own separate body of managers Y — No. 
 
 92(i. You would feel that the dilferont bodijs could work with a central Board, 
 provided they managed then- own local school ? — Yes. Difficulties might arise. The 
 local committees might not always satisfy the School Board, and the School Board 
 may not always satisfy the local committees. 
 
 927. Speaking generally, -with men all anxious to promote one object, you think 
 it might be possible to work this system ? — Yes. 
 
 928. You said you thought the election of a School Board under the same system 
 that exists at present would fail. Why would it fail 'f — It woidd if the Board was 
 elected in the same way that the Town Council is elected, namely, if you had the same 
 class of voters. 
 
 929. On reflection, do you adhere to the statement yon made just now that it 
 would be wise to fix the school fees by statute ? — They should be fixed, but I think the 
 matter ought to be left to the School Board. 
 
 930. Mr. Rowan.'] You expressed yourself in favour of the present system, I 
 believe r* — Yes ; with the exceptions I referred to. 
 
 931. Do you not think it would be better, instead of creating ]?oards of 
 Management, to leave the schools as they are at present imder the Committees of 
 Management, and appoint Educational Councils, the members to be chosen by the 
 1 )ivisional Council, the Municipality, and the Government ? — No ; I should not like to 
 see that, I prefer the present way. 
 
 932. You spoke of an Educational School Board for the division, how would you 
 provide for the schools in the di\'ision ; would this Educational School Board manage 
 all the schools in the district, or woidd all the different schools have their own Board 'f 
 — I think they should have local committees outside. 
 
 933. How slioidd those committees be appointed ? — I think by the parents in the 
 district. 
 
 934. What do you think of a school board for each district, appointed partly by 
 the Divisional Council, partly by the Municipality, and jiartly by the Grovernment, 
 who shoidd have a general supervision over the schools of the district, hold the property 
 of tlie different schools, and in case of any deficiency, call iipon the Divisional Council 
 to make good that deficiency":' — I think that plan would be simpler, and people would 
 more readily fall in with it, as it leaves the present system undisturbed.
 
 83 
 
 935. P reside i}t.'] Then you think the present system answers well :' — Yes, except ■»<"■ t' 
 with regard to the defects I have named. ~ 
 
 9-'{(J. Do you mean the presf-nt undenominational system or the present mission 
 school system? — The undenominational system. 
 
 9-"57. How is it that if it works well, there are .so very few undenominational 
 second and third class scliooLs in Cape Town, the object of the Government being to 
 reach all, and provide secular education ? — My idea is that it is principally due to the 
 many different denominations, they cannot well unite. In a country district you find 
 less of that, but even there you cannot always get all denominations to join in. The 
 more denominations you have, the less you can work the imdenominational principle, 
 because every Church wants to impart religious instruction in its own way. 
 
 938. If every voter in tlie district had to pay something towards the deficiency, 
 would not you thereby create a greater interest in these public schools than there is 
 now, when the guarantors only have to pay '' — Yes, you will extend the interest. 
 
 939. And do not you think tliat although a Malay voter, say, was not educated, he 
 would be able to judge as to who was the best man to deal with education questions, 
 and if honest, vote for that man r* — I dare say. 
 
 940. If you added this, that the Education Department could step in and prevent 
 bad management in the school, and call upon the ratepayers to pay where the Board 
 does not do its duty, do not you thiuk the ratepayers would see there was an efficient 
 Board ? — I see this difficulty, that you might get men perhaps on the School Board 
 who would look more to the interests of the ratepayers than to the interests of education. 
 
 941. But on the whole, under the conditions I have named, would not the public 
 be likely to take a larger interest than they do now ? — Yes, I think so, as far as I 
 can see. 
 
 942. If this Board had control not merely of the town schools, but also of the 
 farm schools, do not you think it would work as well for the one as for tlie other, and 
 look out for the interests all round ? — I do not see how the Board can control the 
 country schools without there being somebody there to look after them. 
 
 943. There would be the Inspectors, would there not •■ — We are so accustomed to 
 the present system of having a local committee that looks after the school and the 
 teachers. I think if you leave the present system of Committees of Management and 
 then just put a Council or School Board over them, it would certainl}' commend itself 
 to the majority of the people. 
 
 944. Rev. Coet:<'>\'] What is yom- opinion with regard to the levying of a tax for 
 school purposes Y Would not you rather be in favom- of a registration fee, every voter 
 paying say ten shillings, the money to be devoted entirely for school purposes — a kind 
 of poll-tax in fact. If a man does not pay the fee then he cannot become a voter l" — 
 I cannot say how that would work. 
 
 945. Ber. Moorreeft.'] Do you tliink in the case of a deficiency that it should be 
 met by a special rate or out of the general revenue 'f — It comes almost to the same thing. 
 
 946. Would not there be more objection to a special rate 'f — Yes, certainly there 
 would be, but the ratepayers have to pay in either case. 
 
 947. What further facilities do you think can be afforded for giving instruction 
 in both the English and Dutch languages, and in how far can that object be attained 
 through the medium of the the Elementary and other examinatifms ; do you think the 
 study of Dutch should be promoted in tliis country 'f — Yes ; decidedly. 
 
 948. Could that object be reached through the medium of examinations ^ — lam 
 not very sure as yet about that point. I think it would be one means of promoting 
 the study of the language. 
 
 949. What do you think should be the mediimi of instruction for a child at the 
 commencement, the mother tongue or a foreign language "r" — The mother tongue. 
 
 950. For children who stay only a limited time at school, would you advise them 
 to learn one language, or two '' — I was always in favour of their learning only one. At 
 Creorge, I remember. Sir Langham Dale gave me a grant for a purely Dutch school. 
 At one time we could not get grants for purely Dutch schools ; you had to teach 
 English too, but it was afterwards altered. Where a child is only a limited time at 
 school, it is a pity to waste time on English and Dutch both. I should like Dutch 
 children to acquire as much instruction as possible in their own language. 
 
 951. Do not you think that children of Dutch-speaking parents are at a disadvan- 
 tage in the Elementary Examination, because there is no Dutch paper ':' — Yes I think so. 
 
 952. Have you any suggestion to offer on that point : how could it be obviated y 
 — It is rather a difficult question. I have a somewhat peculiar view of the matter 
 perhaps. I think a paper in Dutch should be put on the same level with English. 
 There are four languages used in this country — English, Dutch, German, and Kafir — 
 and 1 think that all these languages should be put on a level. If a Kafir boy has to 
 
 [G, 9— '91.] M
 
 84 
 
 Rei: c. Miiiirr. learn his o"nTi language grammatically, and lie has to learu besides English and 
 
 Feb. iTTh^ mill. Grernian and iJiitoli, I do not see why he sliould not store for it, and if an Euglisli boy 
 
 were to learn liis own language, with Dutih and German. I do not see why lie slioubl 
 
 not seore foi' it also. The languages which are used in the Colony 1)y a considerable 
 
 number of tlie inhal)itauts should be put on the same level. 
 
 9;33. Do you think that a boy who has studied two languages ought to score 
 better than the boy wlio has studied only one ? — Yes ; of course. I would not like to 
 compel every boy to learn Dutch. If he prefers to take German, let him score for 
 that, but if a boy prefers to take Dutch, let him score for Dutch. 
 
 !••"> 4. Do not you think if the study of Dutch is promoted in this country, you 
 will at tlie same time promote the study of English ; facility in one language will 
 make a boy better able to understand the other language, will it not ? — Yes. I think it 
 ought to. 
 
 '.I'jo, It would not tend to the neglect of the English, would it P — No. I do not 
 see why the two languages shoidd not be taught side by side. In Jerusalem, I was 
 told of a case where four boys, ten years old, were learning four languages at the 
 same time, and they found no difficulty. 
 
 95G. Err. Cocfzrc] Do you think if Dutch was optional in the Elementary 
 Examination, there would be any danger of the number of candidates being less than 
 at present P— Yes. There is no use denying the fact that Duteli has been neglected ; 
 and as there is a class of oui' people who were neglected about thirty years ago, we are 
 so to say not educated, simply because the language was not cultivated. Children 
 have growia up quite unacquainted with the Dutch grammar. For the last ."50 or 4(1 
 years the schools have been mostly English, and that language has been chiefly taught. 
 We could not get grants for piu-ely Dutch Schools. If it is left optional, therefore, I 
 think that many candidates would not take up the language. 
 
 9-57. Suppose that a certain percentage of marks were allowed for the Dntch 
 paper, would not that encourage boys to go in for the examination ? — Yes, certainly. 
 My idea is, that the same number of marks should be given for English and Dutch. 
 
 958. You are aware that in the Civil Service Examination Dutch is a compulsory 
 subject ? — Yes. 
 
 959. And the number of candidates is increasing every year, is it not ? — 1 believe 
 so. 
 
 960. Do you think, if Dutch was optional in the Elementary Examination, the 
 number of candidates would decrease ■:■ — I do not think so. 
 
 961. Dr. Bcrri/.^ Have you any suggestion to make by which the introduction 
 of Dutch into the Elementary Examination could be carried out with fairness to all 
 sides y — It is a difficult question. My idea was to give the same value to the Dutch 
 paper as to the English j^aper, and let a boy who can do both score for both. That 
 would be some inducement. I should like to see my boy master of both papers. 
 
 902. Do not you think it is possible to have the same subjects set both in 
 English and Dutch, and allow the pupils to take which they please, marks being given 
 for answers to each of the questions, and let the lists appear side by side j* — It 
 would be difScidt, because you have two examiners, one who assigns the value for the 
 Dutch ])aper, and another who assigns the value for the English paper. It would be 
 unfair in that way. 
 
 90:5. How do you mean that it wcmld be imfair ? — One examiner would mark 
 more liberally than another. Then again, we would require schools where Dutch is 
 taught in the same manner as English is taught now, and we have not such schools. 
 Dutch is only taught about two hours a week, and so there is many a Dutch chil t who 
 is better able to answer a paper in English on general subjects, because every other 
 subject is taught him in English, and it would therefore be double work to him to be 
 constantly translating into Dutch what he is learning and then go in for a Dutch 
 examination on all the papers. The Dutch language is nmch more difficult to learn 
 than English. 
 
 9G4. Can you suggest any other plan by which this difficulty can be met ? — As 
 far as I can see, it would be an encouragement to a boy to take up Dutch and study it 
 if he knows that he will get so many marks for it. It is the language of a large pro- 
 portion of the people of this country, and I think it should be studied. 
 
 9fi.'j. Do you think that the effect of the Elementary Examination being con- 
 ducted as it is at present exclusively in English is rather to retard Dutch boys coming 
 forward for examination in Dtitch 'f — Yes ; it acts detrimentally by discouraging 
 Dutcli, and candidates see there is no necessity for the language. 
 
 9tJfi. It has been said that Dutch boys are at a disadvantage, and so they do not 
 come forward, and consequently they cannot get the honour or distinction conferred 
 upon other boys, is that so ? — The disadvantage is this, that they take so mucli longer 
 than an Englisli boy to prepare for the examination.
 
 85 
 
 9()7. 3Ir. Therun.'] What is the medium of instruction in your schools, Dutcli or •««• C- H"""- 
 English ?— We use both languages. ^^^ ,— j^^j 
 
 968. Do you compel any Englisli child to learn Dutch ? — ^No. ' " ' 
 
 969. Do they take it up of their own accord ^ — Some will not take it up at all. 
 I have noticed when I have been inspecting the mission school every month, that as 
 soon as you tell the cliildren to bring their Dutch books, one or two of them drop out. 
 The Englisli children do not care about learning Dutch. 
 
 970. Have you any English children in yoiu- school taking up Dutch ? — Some do. 
 
 971. You do not compel them to do so, do 3'ou? — No. 
 
 972. Have you any idea of the present population of our Cohmy? — No. I have 
 always thought it was about half a million. 
 
 973. According to the last census, the white population amounts to 400,000. 
 Have you ever calculated the number of persons belonging to the Dutch Reformed 
 Church ? — Yes. I remember some time ago I made a calculation of the number of 
 members, but I cannot speak from memory. 
 
 974. Will you say I am wrong if I put the number down as 200,000 'r — No. I 
 thought it was more. 
 
 975. That is half the population of the Colony then, and taking this into consi- 
 deration, do you think it fair that in the Elementary Examination, for instance, no 
 provision is made for Dutch "r* — I can scarcely see how you can teach otherwise than in 
 English. We use an English arithmetic because we have no books of our own, and 
 the same with geography, so that it would be hardly possible to set the examination 
 papers in any other language than English. 
 
 976. But you do not mean to say that you are compelled by the rules of ihe 
 Department to learn the English language exclusively in your school h — We are not 
 compelled, but the people who wish their childi-en to be in stnicted up to the Elemen- 
 tary examination standard in Dutch, are the peo])le who woidd like to see their children 
 educated in English too. 
 
 977. For the School Higher examination, candidates have to satisfy the examiners 
 of their proficiency in the English language and literatm-e, but nothing is said about 
 Dutch literature is it r* — That is one of the things I consider an injustice. 
 
 978. Would you like to instiiict your Dutch children, for instance, in the geography 
 of their country in a foreign language ? — I would not lay so much importance upon 
 geography as history, especially Cape liistory. I do not see that geography will make 
 any great difference. I know that one of my teachers at George took the trouble to 
 write a Dutch geography, but I do not think he succeeded in selling many copies. 
 
 979. Is not the effect of the Elementary examination being in English only, that 
 children, when they come to school, are started in the English language, and pushed 
 on till they have passed the examination '^ — I think it is principally due to the .schools ; 
 you have no schools where they can be taught Dutch projierly from the beginning. 
 My idea is this, that the two languages, English and Dutch, sliould go side by side in 
 our schools, and that in the examination, certain subjects should be left for tlie Dutch 
 language and certain for the English. 
 
 980. Suppose you had a limited number of years, say four years, given for a child 
 in which to work up for the Elementary examination, but he can only pass in the 
 English language, would you then make him take Dutch \vith it ''—Yes. 
 
 981. You would rather he took up Dutch than lose the Elementary examination? 
 —Yes. 
 
 982. Is that your experience from teachers ; do you think they would act according 
 to your ideas ^ — No ; generally the teachers like to show off at the Elementary 
 examination ; that is one of the chief evils of the examination now. 
 
 98;j. You hold that to do justice to half of the population of this Colony as regards 
 their language, some provision must be made in the Elementary examination to give 
 children a chance to pass in their own language Y — I cannot say that is my opinion ; 
 it will make oiu- school system so very difficult. You will have different schools for 
 Dutch and different schools for English ; that would require two systems of examina- 
 tion, one in Dutch and the other in English. I do not see that that is quite necessary ; if 
 we take the two languages and they go side by side, then I think that a paper, shewing 
 the knowledge of the pupil in the Dutch language, should be Set against a paper of_ an 
 English pupil, proving his knowledge of the English language, leaving the pupil to 
 choose between the two. 
 
 984. Suppose you take the same pupil passing tliis P^lementary examination, and 
 he has to pass the compidsory Dutch language cxamiuation. do not you think it is more 
 difficult than where he passes the Elementary examination in Dutch also i-'- Yes ; but 
 then he takes up Dutch as a special study. When I speak of the Elementary examination, 
 I am thinking of little boys up to about 14 or lo ; you do not expect the generality of
 
 86 
 
 y.vr. c. MuiUr. \„,y^ to ;;() in before tlioy arc 14 or 1-3, aud tlie others have Imd some knowledge 
 Fell, "itk" 1891. "''''"'ly ot '!"■ I>uteh ; tliey have been longer at school, or they are better able to take 
 up the language. 
 
 !l^!;j. Do not you think tliat the Dutch language is required in various dejiart- 
 ments of life, either in the Civil Service or in commercial houses ':' — Yes, perhaps not 
 so niucli in (Jape Town ; but even here, you find that tlie two languages are constantly 
 reijuired ; in tlie country districts it is certainly very necessary. 
 
 it.Sfj. With regard to the examiners, do you mean to say that you wll not find 
 men qualified to e.xamine in botli languages, English aud Dutch i' — There arc a good 
 many men here w)io are (lualified to examine ; I think more than the University 
 Council thinks. 
 
 'J87. I understand you to say that in your opinion the Dutch language should be 
 better taught in our schools '^ — Yes, more attention should be paid to it. It is nothing 
 more than fair. 
 
 !»88. Drcni Hohncs.l Your objection to two examiners would be beoauBe it would 
 affect the aggregate of marks, I take it r* — Yes. 
 
 98'J. Does learning Dutch put English children to any disadvantage in your 
 opiuion ':' — Thej' lose the Dutch ; that is the only disadvantage. 
 
 !)!»(). You said that you wished to make the study of Dutch perfectly voluntary ? 
 — Yes ; I should not like to compel anybody to learn it. But if anyone takes the 
 trouble to learn it, he ought to be rewarded. 
 
 !)!)!. Mr. lloirmi.] I believe you had the management of an undenominational 
 school at (jreorge Y — Yes. 
 
 'JO'i. Were both languages taught in that school ? — Yes. English and Dutch. 
 
 'J93. Do 3'ou think that justice was done to Dutch in your school? — No; I do 
 not think so. 
 
 9i)4. ^Vhat was the caus(> in your opinion, was it the fault of the parents ':' — That 
 was fornu?rly the difficulty, but latterly it is not so. Formerly it was thought that 
 I)ut(']i was not necessary, but the great difficulty was this, that the teacher had only 
 about two hours a week in which to teach Dutch, and so the pupils leai-ned a little of 
 the grammar, but they seldom got time to apply the grammar, and they had not time 
 for raucji reading, and thus for about four or five lessons in English they got one 
 lesson in Dutch. 
 
 ')9o. From your experience do you find that our colonial youth take more to 
 English or Dutch ? — To English ; but that is partly owing to the fact that the Dutch 
 literature is so very inferior, so far as you can get it here, I mean ; and it is so much 
 more expensive. Only the other day a girl who came from the Transvaal asked me 
 for a Dutch book to read. She was .staying with me, but I had not actually a book 
 suitable for her in Dutch. I could give her more than one in English. 
 
 f)ft6. Prcxidriit.'] I think you said that the High Dutch is a more difficult language 
 to learn tluan English 1'' — Yes. 
 
 997. Is it not one of the disadvantages that Dutch boys labour under, that written 
 Dutch is different from spoken Dutch, the " taal " ? — Yes. 
 
 9!)S. A boy is brought up to speak the " taal," and when he comes to be educated 
 at school he has to learn this difficult High Dutch 't — Yes. It amounts to this, the 
 Dutch boy stands somewhat on a level with an English boy, whoso education has been 
 neglected ; he has never been taught his own language, he knows the common English 
 tliat is spoken, and when he goes to school he has to commence from the beginning and 
 learn English properly ; so it is witli the Dutch boy, his own tongue has been neglected, 
 and he can only speak the vernacular, and when he goes to school, lie must learn it. 
 
 999. So the Dutch boy who goes to school here has as great a difficulty in master- 
 ing the written Dutch language he has in mastering the English language ? — I would 
 not say that exactly, because he can understand n:ost of the words ; only here and there 
 other words have crept iu. 
 
 1000. Would not many Dutch boys be also familiar with a good many English 
 words '( — It depends upon where they have beeu brought up. 
 
 1001. At school you say boys now are taught through the medium of English 
 virtually, is not the effect of that that they think in English ? — I think after a time 
 they must begin to think in English. I was sent to a Dutch school, and ever since I 
 liave thought in Dutch. I can think more easily in Dutch than in English. A boy 
 who gets into an English school very early thinks in English. 
 
 1002. The majority of Dutch boys now you think have learned to think in 
 English 'f — Yes. 
 
 lOO'i. Then if you were to introduce this other system by making virtually two 
 systems of education, one in Dutch and the other in English, the Dutch boys would 
 have to begin to think in Dutch, would thej' not h — I do not know about that ; Dutch 
 is not a foreign language to a Dutch boy. Some people think that High Dutch is a
 
 87 
 
 foreign language to a Dutch boy ; I do not think so. It is simply to liira what correct •?'«<■■ C". MuiUr. 
 English would be to a boy who lias noi learned the grammar. ,— T" 
 
 1004. But still, it is something he has to learn when he goes to school, is it not Y— ' '*''"' 
 But he can vmderstand the Dutch which is rsad to him, and he can speak the Dutch 
 
 too, although he cannot speak it grammatically. 
 
 1005. Do you not think it would rather retard education, the object of which is to 
 deyelope the mental faculties, if we were now to resort to a dual system of teaching in 
 this Colony, one in Dutch and the other in English ?— If you were to teach all the 
 branches yes ; it would be an expensive thing, and I do not know how it would be 
 arranged ; but I see no difficulty in giving more facilities for learning Dutch in 
 schools, and I do not see any difficviKy in teaching some of the branches in Dutch, 
 history and Cape Geograpliy for instance. 
 
 1006. You think that Dutch ought to be more thoroughly taught than it is ? — Yes. 
 10(i7. But you would not alter the system of education so as to have two systems 
 
 side by side would you 'f — No. 
 
 lOl'S. Would it not be a great disadvantage and lead to two extremes of thought ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 1000. With regard to little boys, who have only just come to school. Sir Langham 
 Dale said he approved of their being taught in Dutch only ? — Yes ; there is no difficulty 
 in that, but teachers are so accustomed to the old system requiring them to teach in 
 English, that you find it very difficult for them to depart from it except in mission 
 schools. 
 
 1010. Are you familiar with any educational system adopted elsewhere in countries 
 where more than one language is spoken ? — No. 
 
 3Ir. J. R. Wliitlon examined. 
 
 1011. 3Ir. Rowan.'] I believe you are Eector of the Normal College in Cape „ 
 Town ?-Yes. ^ , , , , , . . , . . J. R. ^huto,.. 
 
 1012. And also head of the practising schools in connection with the College ? — Yes. 
 
 1013. How long have you been engaged in that work ? — For thirteen years. ^'^^'- ^^"'' ^*" 
 
 1014. How many students are there at present in the College proper alto- 
 gether ?— 36. 
 
 1015. And how many boys are there on the books r* — 340. 
 
 1016. That is irrespective of the girls 'r*- Yes. 
 
 1017. What is the average daily attendance? — I think five or six per cent, less 
 than the number on the books. 
 
 1018. Then you cannot complain of irregular attendance in yom* schools ? — No, 
 not at all. 
 
 1019 How many girls are there on the books ? — 144 actually in attendance. 
 
 1020. Do you know whether the attendance is irregular in the schools generally ? 
 — I think only in the mission schools. 
 
 1021. Have you thought of any plan for enforcing attendance in schools ? — Every 
 plan is surrounded with more or less difficulty. There is no way but compulsion in 
 some form or another. The experience of scliools in England shows that it may not 
 be altogether a success there, but it does good. 
 
 1022. Demi Ilo/jiien.'] On what grounds do you say that compulsory education 
 has not been a success in England ? — On the ground that it has failed to secure a 
 higher average attendance. 
 
 1023. Is it within your actual knowledge that that is so? — Partly. I was a 
 teacher in Scotland, and although we had compulsion, it was perfimctorily carried out, 
 and the average attendance was not what it ought to have been. 
 
 1024. If it were properly carried out, do you think it would have a beneficial 
 effect on the schools in Cape Town ? — Yes, I think it would. 
 
 1025. AVoidd you advocate the appointment of an attendance officer to visit the 
 houses and see what children of a school-going age were being educated? — That would 
 be a preliminary step and an advisable one. 
 
 1026. Should he be a permanent officer ? — Yes. 
 
 1027. Pirsifi/'iit.] Would you suggest for this country any other form of 
 compulsion that exists in England or Scotland ? — I doubt whether there is any other 
 practicable means. 
 
 1028. Do you know anything about the education of children by persons employed 
 on the lines of railway? — I have had a few at my school. 
 
 1020. I mean as to the working of railway schools ? — No. 
 
 1030. Mr. Rowan.] Have you any acquaintance with Boards of Management ? — 
 Only indirectly. I think it not only possible but practicable to improve upon the
 
 S8 
 
 ^'r present system, so tliul Hoanls of Management miglit have perpetual succession, but 
 
 ■ ■ """"■ my acquaintance witli tlie working of country schools is very slight. 
 
 Feb. 2<l.b, I8!il. lU^l. Does Dutch form part of the school course in t lie Normal College proper!'' 
 
 — Yo8. 
 
 1032. Can you tell us what subjects are tauglit in Dutch':' — Just those subjects 
 which are necessary to accpiiring a knowledge of tlie language. 
 
 1();53. ] low many hours are devoted to Dutch in the Normal College proper:' — 
 Three hours a week. 
 
 1034. Do all the Normal College students take Dutch Y — Yes. 
 
 1035. Do you employ a sjjecial Dutch teacher in tlie Normal College Y — Yes. 
 103tj. Has he any other work besides teaching Dutch:' — Yes ; he takes a share in 
 
 the other school work during the lime he can spare from Dutch. 
 
 1(137. In the practising school how many of the boys take Dutch!' — The actual 
 number of boys learning Dutch at present is 137. 
 
 In3.s. And hmv many girls ^ — About a dozen. 
 
 1030. llow is it tliat more pupils do not take Dutcli ; can you assign any reason 
 for it, because the number seems very limited 'f — In tlie first place, you have to deduct 
 the infants, of whom we have a large number. Out of the 349 boys, 00 are infants 
 four, five and six j^ears old. Then, of the remainder, very nearly half are English 
 children, more than half if you reckon English, Scotch and Irish. 
 
 1040. I believe j'our institution is in connection with the Dutch Reformed Church 
 although of an undenominational character, is it not Y — They are the owners of the 
 property. 
 
 1041. How many of the students belong to the Dutch Reformed Church!' — All 
 the boarders do at present. There are 28 boarders and eight day students. 
 
 1042. What denomination do the day students belong to Y — Most of them belong 
 to the Dutch Reformed Church. 
 
 1043. In yom- practising schools how many belong to the Dutch Reformed 
 Church ? — About one in three of the attendance. 
 
 1044. Have you sent up any of j'our pupils for the School Elementary examina- 
 tion Y — Yes. 
 
 1045. Do you think English and Dutch should be made compulsory in the Ele- 
 mentary examinations ? — Certainly not. 
 
 1040. In the third-class teacher's examination Dutch is one of the subjects, but it 
 is only translation and re-translation : do you think those who are going up for Dutch 
 should be required to read in Dutch just as they are refjuii-ed to read in English before 
 the inspectors ? — I have no experience of that examination. 
 
 1047. Have you any experience of the middle-class teacher's examination':' — Yes. 
 
 1048. There, one of the subjects is to repeat fifty lines from some English author, 
 do not you think that those who are going up for Dutch should be required to do the 
 same Y — It might very well be done. 
 
 1049. Is it not also necessary that young men who are going to work among a 
 Dutch population should be required to examine a class through the medium of the 
 Dutch language Y — To some extent it might be, but there is this difference that they 
 all have great facilities in conversational Dutch, which they do not have in English. 
 That makes a great difference. 
 
 10.")(). And therefore their training in English is more necessary you think ':' — That 
 is my argument. 
 
 1051. How many teachers liave been trained in the Normal College since its 
 establishment Y — A considerable number droi> off : perhaps they are iuefhcient and only 
 work part of their course. The approximate number of those who have completed their 
 course is 150. If you take the whole number who have been in the College it is about 
 180. 
 
 1052. Since what date ':' — Since 1878, when the establishment was opened. 
 
 1053. How many of your teachers are engaged in the Colony Y — I cannot say the 
 number in the Colony itself, 1 should say that from 40 to 50 have ceased to teach or 
 have not taught at all, so that would leave about 140 still engaged in teaching. 
 
 1054. Can you mention any places where there are teachers of first and second class 
 schools, who have been trained in the Normal College':' — There are Mr. Bartman at 
 Richmond, Mr. Thcrou at Mun-aysburg, Mr. Gericke at Caledon, Mr. Fryliuck of 
 Ladismith, Mr. Nelson of Hanover, Mr. Bresler of Uopefield, and others. Those are 
 all head masters of first or second class schools, some of them continued their studies at 
 other colleges. 
 
 1055. And there are several assistant teachers also, are there not Y —Yes, many. 
 
 1056. Have a good many gone to the Free State and the Transvaal 1'' — A large 
 number have gone to the Free State.
 
 89 
 
 1057. Are there better inducements for teachers there ? — They seem to think so. Mr. 
 
 I could mention more head masters in the Free State than in the Colony, some of our ^' ^_"1^' 
 very best students. j,,^,^ ^^,j, 
 
 105S. Do those young men take kindly to teaching, because it has been stated in 
 evidence that the colonial youth do not care for the profession 'i — If you judge from 
 the number of the desertions, such seems to be the case ; it is very nearly one-fourth. 
 
 1059. May not the cause be that there are better inducements in other occupa- 
 tions ? — Possibly. 
 
 1 060. A.re you aware of the fact that in most schools, the children of Dutch- 
 speaking parents receive their first instruction through the English language, and do 
 not you think that rather a roundabout way ? — I doubt whether it is a roundabout way. 
 
 1061. Do not you think it is better to build on the knowledge which a child has 
 got rather than first make it unlearn what it knows? — There is no necessity for 
 unlearning. 
 
 1062. If a child is instructed in a foreign language, must not he first learn to think 
 in that language, before he derives any advantage ? — The children we have got our- 
 selves in school are largely the children of Dutch-speaking parents, and I find no diffi- 
 culty in the matter. 
 
 1063. If there are two children, one English and the other Dutch, and the English 
 child understands every word that he reads and the Dutch child does not, which of the 
 two would profit most by the instruction ? — I have just as much difficulty in teaching 
 English children the meaning of the words as I have in teaching Dutch children. 
 
 1064. Are you well acquainted with the country districts ":' — I cannot say that I 
 am. 
 
 1065. Do you get many letters from faj-mers and school committees, wanting to 
 secure the services of teachers ? — Many. 
 
 1066. From your experience, is the supply equal to the demand, more or less ? — 
 Not quite. 
 
 1067. Which do you consider is the best way to train teachers, by moans of the 
 Normal College or by the system of pupil teachers ? — I think, both. The jmpil teacher 
 system should lead up to and culminate in the Normal College, that is to say, those 
 who have been pupil teachers for two or three years should finish their course in the 
 Normal College, it is so in England and Scotland. 
 
 1068. Would you combine the two ? — Certainly. Tlicy are not two distinct 
 systems ; they are part and parcel of the same system. 
 
 1069. Do you think that Colonial boys are inclined to take up teaching as a pro- 
 fession ? — I do not think that boys of the highest ability are. 
 
 1070. Rvv. Cocfz('c.~\ You said that three hours a week are devoted to the study of 
 the Dutch language in j'our school, do you think that is sufficient to meet the re- 
 quu'ements of the Dutch-speaking people. Would it be possible for a Dutch boy to 
 acquire a thorough knowledge of the Dtitch language when he only gets instruction 
 for three hours a week ':' — It depends on what stage he gets the instruction at. 
 
 1071. At any rate it takes a much longer time to study the language when a 
 student has only three hom\s a week instruction than when he gets it daily, does it not ? 
 — Naturally so. Generall}', we cannot afford to give more time. There are other sub- 
 jects to be studied, all of which are considered necessary, both for mental training and 
 as a preparation for the practical work of school-keeping. The hours per week given 
 to each subject are as follows: School Management (Theory), one hour; School 
 Management (Practice), one hour; Music, one hour; History, one hour; Drawing, 
 two hours ; English, three hours ; Dutch, three hours ; Latin, four hours ; Greek, three 
 hours ; Arithmetic, two hours ; Algebra, two hours ; Geometry, two hours ; Science, two 
 hours. It will thus be seen that our students must give two hours more than the usual school 
 maximum per week in order to overtake all the subjects. All are necessary, and it will be 
 difficult for anyone to suggest what should be reduced so as to extend the time all<:)tted 
 to Dutch. It would rather seem as if the important subjects of school management, 
 music and drawing, were placed at a disadvantage. And, whether accomplished or not, 
 our students have always, I believe, done well in Dutch, and proved themselves as 
 efficient teachers of that as of any other subject. It was stated publicly in the last 
 Synod of the Dutch Reformed Church that of the 1 -'i highest candidates on the Dutch 
 Examiner's list, 7 were from the Normal College, and that they took the 2nd (one 
 mark below the 1st), 3rd, 5th, 7th, and other good places. What I know of Dutch, 
 and of their attainments in it, leads me to believe that if they are not accomplished 
 Dutch scholars, as little are they accomplished Latin, mathematical or science scholars. 
 Many complaints have reached me about om- past stuilents' EikjUxIi teaching, seldom, 
 if ever, about their Dxtcli. 
 
 1072. You said that there is a large number of infants in the school? — Yes; 
 in the day school.
 
 90 
 
 
 1073. Are there any Dutch-speaking children among the infants r* — None ><oleltj 
 Dutch speaking. 
 
 Ftb. .'4th, 1891. 1074. Do you commence their training by instruction in English? — Yes; 
 
 entirely. 
 
 1075. Do you think there would be any objection to having the Dutch language 
 optional in the Elementary examination? — The subject is such a wide and delicate 
 one, that it is diflicult to answer that question ; but in the best interests of the elemen- 
 tary education of tiie country, 1 personally see an objection to making it optional. 
 
 1070. What objection do you see ? — It would retard thoroughness in other subjects. 
 
 1077. Suppose that candidates were allowed to score in tJie examination when the 
 Dutch paper is set, would that encourage them to study Dutch more thoroughly ?— It 
 would encourage the study of what pays, forgetful altogether of what education reallyis. 
 
 1078. Would it also induce English-speaking boys to go in for the study of Dutch ? 
 — That is uiit what my experience would lead mo to believe. 
 
 1079. You say that colonists ol the best ability do not take kindly to teaching in 
 the Colony ? — So far as my experience goes. 
 
 lOcSO. What are the reasons for that ? — There are many reasons. The work is very 
 hard if the man is to be a good teacher, and the public are often very thankless. An- 
 other reason is that our students feel very keenly the insecurity of their office. Those 
 are points wliich our young men agitato among themselves. 
 
 lOsl. Yonr opinion is that if teachers had a better status, and better salaries were 
 paid, as good teachers would be got here as from abroad ? — Yes, probably so. With 
 regard to the question as to the efficiency of om- students with three hours teaching in 
 Dutch, I would further say that if you were to listen to any of them teaching a class of 
 little boys in English, you would find that they made frequent mistakes in grammar, 
 just from want of familiarity with conversational English. They have great difficulty 
 in writing an accurate English letter. 
 
 1082. Is there any difficulty in writing a Dutch letter accurately ? — Up to a certain 
 point I should say no. I do not think you would call it an artistic Dutch letter, but 
 still it would be fairly grammatical. The Dutch letter would, on tlie whole, bo better 
 than the English. 
 
 1083. Is the Dutch language used as a medium of instruction in your 
 school ? — No. 
 
 1084. Dr. Berry.] Am I right in understanding the Normal College to be a place 
 where special instruction is given in the art of teaching to a select class of young 
 men? — ^It is. 
 
 1085. What you call the practising school is just an ordinary school, where the 
 students learn their profession properly before they go out ? — Yes ; just as a hospital 
 is to a medical school. 
 
 1085. Speaking generally, is your institution the only one of the kind in the 
 Colony where young men are turned out fit to teach Dutch ? — 15y no moans ; but there is 
 no other special institution for the same purpose. 
 
 1087. Are there other institutions of the same kind? — Many teachers go from 
 Stellenbosch and also from the South African College, but they are not normal trained 
 teachers. Still, they are good Dut{^h scholars. 
 
 1088. Have many of your students gone out as teachers to other schools besides 
 public undenominational schools in the Colony ; I mean such as farm and mission 
 schools ? — Not many ha^■p gone to farm or mission schools. 
 
 1089. Have many gone out as private tutors ? — -Not many. 
 
 1090. What class of boys do you get, as a rule, into your school to be trained as 
 teachers ; are they from what would be called a good position in society or a middling 
 position ? — I think the latter mostly, such as the sons of small farmers. 
 
 1091. Are they the sons of professional men at all ? — Very few. 
 
 1092. Would there be a considerable mmiber of young men who, as boys, have 
 been left to shift for themselves ? — Not many ; a few. 
 
 1093. Do you find some in your school who take to teaching from the love of it ? 
 — The love of teaching may not be highly developed ; it is a thing which must grow. 
 
 1094. I suppose you would say that, generally speaking, a man who is to be a suc- 
 cessful teacher must love his work, and not take to it merely from a money-making 
 point of view ? — Yes. 
 
 1095. (y'ould you suggest any other means than at present exists for increasing the 
 supply of teachers who woidd be competent to teach both in English and Dutch ? — 
 You must increase the desire on the part of young men to become teachers. That is 
 the first point. I have never had a plethora of applications. 
 
 1096. 1 suppose it is practically unknown to you, the case of a boy or girl coming 
 into your school who knows nothing of English, and whose sole speaking powers aro 
 confined to Dutch ?-- Quite unknown.
 
 «1 
 
 1097. In the Elementary examination do you think it would be at all practicable **'• 
 
 to have what might be called a Dutch side and an English side? — It might be prac- ^' *-_^'"<™- 
 ticable, but very expensive. Feb. 24th, 1891 
 
 10U8. In your opiuion the question of expense is the only objection ? — I do not 
 say that. You would then be training a largo section of your young people who do 
 not know a word of English. Practically it would mean that. 
 
 1099. From what you said before, it would be scarcely possible to find a boy or 
 girl who did not know something of Englisli, would it? — That is my experience. 
 
 1100. I take it that your experience would be a pretty good guide to the state of 
 things in the Colony generally. The objection raised to the Elementary examination 
 is, that a boy who wants to learn a little iJutch before he is 15 or 16, and docs learn 
 a little, can get no marks for it when he goes up for examination. The question 
 occurs, whether it would be po.ssible to separate the candidates for the Elementary 
 examination into two classes, those who wished to be ranked in Dutch and those who 
 wished to be ranked in English : let the same paper be set in the two languages, and let 
 the candidates take one examination or the other, just as they please. Would such a 
 system be expedient in connection with the examination '< — I do not know that it 
 would be expedient. I think the other plan of having a separate Dutch paper, with 
 separate Lists, would be better. 
 
 1101. Mr. T/ieroii.'] How long have you been in the Colony? — Thirteen j'ears. 
 
 1102. Where have you spent the greater part of that time ? — In Cape Town. 
 
 1103. Have you never been in the up-country districts ? — I have travelled in the 
 country during holidays ; but I have never resided in the country. 
 
 liO-l. Do you give instruction in Dutch in your school personally? — Occasion- 
 ally ; 1 might say frequently. 
 
 IIO^"". Is your knowledge of the Dutch language sufficient to enable you to pass 
 judgment on the necessities and reqiiireruents of the language ? — My capability of 
 passmg judgment upon the subject of the Dutch language does not depend, I think, 
 on my knowledge of Dutch. I fail to see the connection. 
 
 1106. I will put it in another way. Can I take your evidence as the evidence of 
 an authority upon the subject? — As having been connected with the Normal College 
 for 13 years, I ought to know something considerable about Dutch. 
 
 1107. Is your acquaintance with the necessities and requirements of Dutch such 
 as to give me a right to quote you as an authority upon subjects that may come before 
 Parliament in conuection with the matter ? — That is a matter of opinion. In my own 
 opinion I am qualified to speak of the necessities and requirements of Dutch. 
 
 1108. Are you acquainted with the wants of the country' districts as far as that 
 branch of education is concerned ? — I have travelled a good deal in the Colony, and I 
 have had students from various parts. I hear their opinion as teachers, and after they 
 leave, they correspond with me about their experiences, difficulties, &c. 
 
 1109. The students who come up to 3'our college from country schools, are they 
 from the highest or lowest standards ? — I should say from the midiUe standard. 
 
 1110. Then you cannot judge about first beginners, can you.-' — Not to the 
 same extent. 
 
 1111. Suppose you were,to go to Mauritius, you would find there two languages 
 used. French and English. If you examined school children there, what language 
 would you expect them to adopt ? — I would need first to know the circumstances. I 
 do not know what the circumstances of Mauritius are. 
 
 1112. Have you ever studied any educational report from that place ? — No. 
 
 1113. Have you ever received children from the country into your school from 
 the first beginning ? — Not often from the country iit the first beginning. 
 
 1114. The children you get from the country districts are generally children who 
 are more or less advanced, and know something ? — Yes. 
 
 1115. So that you would not be able to say what the requirements are of the 
 young children from the country just eiUering school ? — I cannot say from personal 
 experience. I have not been a teacher in the country. 
 
 1116. Dean Hoi men.'] Your's is a college for training teachers specially, is it 
 not ?— Yes. 
 
 1117. Have you any practising school attached to the college, and in that seho'il 
 do your senior students give instruction in Dutch ? — Dutch is taught in the practising 
 school by a Dutch teacher. 
 
 1118. But do the senior .stiidpnts ever take a class in Dutch ? — No. A normal 
 trained method master ie required to conduct the model or criticism lessons, and this is 
 done in English only. 
 
 1119. Do you think that the making of Dutch compulsory for the Elementary 
 and Matriculation examinations wortiid have any effect upon the number of candi- 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] N
 
 92 
 
 Mr. 
 
 dates going n\) Y — I think that a very largo numl)er of English children would not gt) 
 
 ■ ■ [' ""' in for the examination. 
 
 Feb. 24th, 1891. 1120. Tlu'n it would affect the number you think ? — Yes. 
 
 1121. In those e.xaminations do you think that the Dutch and English papers 
 should be put exactly on a level, or should Dutcli be treated as it is now, like a French 
 paper is treated. I .sjieak more of the Matriculation examination Y — I have no ob- 
 jection to Dutch being put on the same level as regards murks, as Englisli in the 
 Matriculation examination. I object (on principle) to Dutch in the Elementary 
 examination at all ; but I would go so far as to say that in man}' places it might bo 
 advantageous and advisable to have it purely optional, on the lines I have indicated. 
 The " conspicuous absence of accuracy and general intelligence in elententary work 
 is nearly as true to-day as it was at the time of tlie last Cominissfon. They have been 
 improving, biit I think the introduction of Dutch in the Elementary examination 
 would retard the study of other subjects. 
 
 1122. President. '\ The Normal School is supported by the Dutch Reformed 
 Church, I believe Y — Yes ; in part. 
 
 1123. The buildings are the property of the chiuch, are thoy not ? — Yes. 
 
 1124. Has the church the management of the institution!'' — Yes; it is managed 
 by a committee. 
 
 1125. Are they, as far as you know, satisfied with the working of the school 1:' — 
 They have repeatedly expressed themselves as very well satisfied. 
 
 1126. And do the teachers who are turned out from there, generally find employ- 
 ment among the Dutch population Y — They are employed everywhere all over the 
 country ; in the Free State and Transvaal also. 
 
 1127. The medium of instruction in your school is English, is it not ? — Yes. 
 
 1128. And do you think that ought to continue ? — I think so. 
 
 1129. I see that in Mauritius, all competitors are examined in English and French, 
 the examination in 8\ibjects other than language being loft to their option ; that is in 
 examinations similar to our Elementary examination — tlie junior scholarship as it is 
 called — do you think it would be advisable to introduce such a rule into our examina- 
 tions here ? — Certainly not. 
 
 li;50. Why not r* — The cases arc hardly parallel. The French of Mauritius may 
 not be tlie same patois as the Dutch spoken by the country people here. Besides 
 French in itself is worth studying either for commercial or literary purposes. It is 
 much studied in England. My experience is that I have to drive the boys to the 
 Dutch classes, they are so reluctant to go, even Dutch boys in Capo Town ; they do 
 not take kindly to learning the Dutch language thoroughly. 
 
 1131. Is that because good Dutch is a difficult language to learn 'f — Partly. 
 
 1132. The vernacular spoken here is diffc^rent from godd Dutch, is it not? — Yes. 
 
 1133. In your experience is it as difficult to teach a Dutch boy speaking the 
 ordinary Dutch, good Dutch, as it is to teach him English Y — I tliink so. 
 
 1134. Is it more difficult in fact ? — 1 cannot say that it is more difficult. 
 
 1135. You have to drive the pupils to learn Dutch, but not to learn English Y — 
 Yes. I am speaking of my day pupils ; they have to be literally driven to it ; not tlie 
 students. 
 
 1136. What do you think would be the effect of having the two languages taught 
 side by side and used as the medium of instruction ; would it be beneficial or prejudi- 
 cial Y — It would retard education enormously. The teachers would liave to give part 
 of their time to Dutch and part to English, and there could not be the same thorough- 
 ness in the other work. 
 
 1137. Would it be a more expensive system '^--Yes ; you must double the number 
 of your teachers, or nearly so. 
 
 1138. Putting on one side the question of expense, what would be the effect on 
 pupils, either at school or after the}' leave school ; do you think their minds would 
 be less thoroughly (rained, or otherwise Y — In the abstract, there is no reason why 
 mental training should not be given in Dutch as well as English ; but 1 am looking to 
 the circumstances of this country, and my general impression is, that to increase the 
 number of subjects for the Elementary examination would be to retard sound elemen- 
 tary education. 
 
 1139. You said that the supply of teachers is not equal to the demand; can you 
 suggest any means whereby the supply could be increased ? — I think the pupil teacher 
 system might and should be extended ; but I understand that in many places there is 
 a difficulty in getting eligible boys and girls to become pupil teachers. 
 
 1140. Ai'e there any scholarships attached to your school? — Not scholarships; 
 but we have something of an equivalent. The students pay a very small sum for 
 their board, lodging, and education ; only £12 a year. The Dutch Reformed Church, 
 combined with the Government, provide the rest.
 
 93 
 
 1141. What do you reckon is the cost of those pupils? — £51 a year. The Gov- Mr. 
 ernment- gives £24 for each student, the Church £15, and the student finds £12. ^- ^-^^n^- 
 
 1142. Do you think that some stimulus might be put forward in the way of Feb. 24th, 1891. 
 offering bursaril■;^, so as to attract more io become teachers ? — I doubt whether that is 
 
 needed. £12 a year is so very moderate a sum for board, lodging and education. 
 
 1143. Do you think that better payment to teachers would prove a stimulus? — 
 Yes ; I think so. That would be one way. 
 
 1144. What other inducement would you hold forth? — The improvement of the 
 teachers' status, and a more secure tenure of office. 
 
 1145. How would you render the tenure of office more secure? — That is a very 
 wide and difficult question to deal with. 
 
 1146. Would you do anything to prevent their going to the Free State or 
 Transvaal, by making it a condition that if they avail themselves of the advantages of 
 your institution, they can only teach in the Colony after they leave, at any rate for a 
 certain number of years ? — That was tlie original plan of the Normal College cm-ators, 
 but it was relaxed. We started with that, aud when it was discontinued a large 
 number of our best students went to the Free State. 
 
 1147. Why was the rule relaxed ? — I cannot give the reason. It was done by 
 the Synod or the Curators, perhaps through a feeling that existed that as the Free State 
 contributed towards the expense of the college they had a certain claim. 
 
 1148. Do you consider that relaxation a wise or unwise thing, looking at it from 
 a large point of view ? — I do not think it unwise. 
 
 1149. Do you think there is any possibility of enlarging the Normal College, or 
 of getting the Government to step in and do something more ? — It would be possible 
 to enlarge the college; but the first thing to do is to create among the students a desire 
 to become teachers. We have never had a plethora of supply, in fact we have scarcely 
 enough to fill the room. 
 
 1150. The wants of the English people throughout the Colony are not met by 
 the teachers from your Normal College, are they ?— Very few go to the Eastern Province. 
 
 1151. Do teachers come from England and Scotland ? — Yes; as a rule. 
 
 1152. Do you think it wise to bring teachers from there ?— I think it is wise to a 
 certain extent. 
 
 1153. Is that because they are better trained ? — They have been well trained, and 
 they have been led, during the whole of their student life, to look upon teaching as a 
 distinct profession ; not as a thing to be thrown aside when something else offered. 
 
 1154. What inducements are there in England and Scotland to cause men to take 
 to teaching more kindly than they do out here ? — It is, as Mr. Moorrees suggests, to 
 some extent, the " scramble for existence." 
 
 1155. Rev. Bloorrees.'] I understand you to say that where two languages are 
 taught side by side in school, it would be injui-ious to the thoroughness of elementary 
 education ? — I mean this — if you say to a teacher, give half a day to the teaching of 
 Dutch, and half a day to the teaching of English, then education must suffer, unless 
 you double your staff. 
 
 1156. Is it not your opinion that where two languages are taught side by side it 
 increases the knowledge of the child ? — But you double the teacher's work if 3-ou ask 
 him to teach two languages side by side. 
 
 1157. Is it not done in other schools ? — Dutch is taught for three or four hours a 
 week perhaps. 
 
 1158. V/hat I want to know is, whether it is an advantage or disadvantage to 
 have two languages taught to a child ? — As I said before, if so many boys want to 
 learn Dutch only, and so man}^ English only, naturally you double the teacher's work, 
 and the efficiency of the school is retarded. 
 
 1159. In a general way, if a child is taught two languages, do not you increase 
 his knowledge, and facilitate his acquiring the other language by teaching him the 
 one ? — I very much question it. 
 
 1160. Why. In schools on the Continent it is customary to learn two or three 
 languages at school, is it not ? — Not all at the same rate. They leam other languages 
 as Dutch is learned here in our schools. Two or three hoiu-s a week for instance, 
 would be given to English. I have seen this in Continental schools. If you teach the 
 two languages conversationally, it is no disadvantage, but if you spend a great deal of 
 time over two languages to the sacrifice of studying science, geograjihy, and so on ; 
 then it is a disadvantage. You must give a great deal of time, to it. 
 
 1161. Do you find that in the Continental schools the instruction is not thorough ; 
 in Holland for instance ? — I have only visited one school in Holland. 
 
 1162. As a rule, is not Holland considered a well-ediicated country? — I believe 
 particulHrly well-educated. 
 
 N 2.
 
 94 
 
 ^L 11G3. Do not you know that it is the custom there in almost alt the schools to have 
 
 ' *"■ two or three languages taught ? — And it is also the custom to keep the children two or 
 
 Fob. 24th, 1391. three times as long at school as our's are, — They are at school many more years than 
 the average of our children, 
 
 1 1 64. You stated that when your students leave the Normal College, they are as 
 good in Dutch as they are in English, — do you say that from your personal know- 
 ledge ? — Certainly. 
 
 11G5. From your personal knowledge of hoth languages, you are quite able to 
 know whether a boy is as well up in Dutcli as in English Y — I think I am, and I may 
 know from consultation and conversatiim with my Dutch teachers also. 
 
 1100. iiVc. Coetzee.] You stated that if Dutch were made compulsory in the 
 Elementary examination, it would affect the number of candidates ; I suppose you 
 mean that there would be fewer candidates going up than at present ? — Yes. 
 
 1167. In the Civil Service examination, Dutch is compulsory, and we find that 
 the number of candidates is increasing, is not that so ? — The two cases are not parallel. 
 The reward for passing the Elementary examination is not the same as the reward for 
 passing the Civil Service examination. 
 
 1168. You mean that there is a greater inducement to go in for the Civil Service 
 examination ? — Yes, of course. 
 
 1169. With regard to teachers, do not you think that if better pensions were pro- 
 vided, there would be more inducement to stick to the profession ? — Yes, there is no 
 doubt of it. 
 
 1170. Is there anything you can suggest with reference to the arbitrary dismissal 
 of teachers? — It is a very wide and difficult subject, but I think there might be some 
 appeal to the Education Department. 
 
 1171. You spoke of "conversational Dutch " and " proper Dutch," will you state 
 the difference between the two ? — One is spoken grammatically and the other is not. 
 Ik is, onu 14, for Ik ben, wij zijn, is a well known example. We have tried to make it a 
 rule to talk grammatical Dutch in the college, but the students cannot keep to it. 
 
 1172. Mr. Tlicron.'] In your evidence before the Commission which sat in 1879, 
 page 308, I see you said you were appointed by the Rev. Andrew Murrry and 
 Professors Blaikie and Calderwood, of Edinburgh ; do they constitute the present Board 
 of your institution ? — Professors Blaikie and Calderwood, together with the Rev A. 
 Murray, who was then in Europe, were asked by the curators to xmdertake the duty of 
 finding a teacher. 
 
 1173. Is the Rev. A. Murray still on the Board? — Yes. 
 
 1174. What are the names of the other curators ? — The Rev. Mr. Louw of the 
 Paarl. the Rev. Mr. McGregor of Robertson, the Rev. Mr. Luckhoff of Darbanville, 
 Dr, Kotze, the Rev. Mr. Steytler of Cape Town, and Mr. S. V. Ilofmeyr. They are 
 all clergymen except the last-named. 
 
 1175. Have they anything to say as far as the teaching in the school is con- 
 cerned, or is that left entirely to you ? — They have everything to say. 
 
 1176. Suppose you thought it desirable to omit Greek in your institution and sub- 
 stitute Dutch or some other language, could they object to that ? — Certainly. 
 
 1177. Mr. Boicau.l What additional facilities do you think can be provided to 
 meet the wants of the children of the agricultural population ? — I think it is for that 
 class that teachers are required, but my students demiu- to taking a situation of £50, 
 £60, or £70 a year. They prefer to be assistant masters in first-class schools. It is 
 for the small lower class schools that you require teachers, who need not have such 
 a high training. 
 
 1178. Would you advise having a separate department in your college for train- 
 ing teachers of that sort V — It has been thought that candidates might come for a short 
 course of instruction, say three or six months. 
 
 1179. Presidi-nt.'] \Vhat is the length of the course now? — Two years. The 
 difiiculty with regard to farm schools is to get good qualified teachers, I apprehend. 
 
 1180. Dr. Berry.l If you sent out young men after they had only an inferior 
 course of training, and fitted only for these lower schools, such teachers would never 
 be suitable for anything better, would they ? — They can work themselves up if it is in 
 them. 
 
 1181. Even after they become teachers in lower class schools? — Yes; it is con- 
 stantly being done. There are many schools where the teachers have taught for a 
 short time, saved a little money, and then come back and improved themselves. 
 
 1182. Do not you think it is expedient to encourage the governess class? — 
 Yes, certainly. 
 
 1183. Mr. Theron.'\ You would like to secure good education for the children of 
 the farming population, would you not ? — Yes.
 
 95 
 
 1184. These inferior teachers that you suggest might meet the wants of the Mr. 
 agricultural population ; what status would thoy require to qualify them 'i — I think if '^' ^' ^ '"*"- 
 they have passed the Elementary examination and then come to us for three or six Feb. 24tii, 1891 
 months, they would be eligible. They would then be more efiBcient teachers for 
 elementary work than many are at present. 
 
 1185. Mr. Roican.~\ The next question is, how to secure fuller use being made of 
 the opportunities afforded for education ; have you any suggestion to make on that 
 head ?— No. 
 
 Ahdol Biirna examined. 
 
 1186. President.'] What are you ? — At present I am a cab-proprietor. Abdol Bum: 
 
 1187. You are a Mahommedan •' — Yes. — — 
 
 1188. How long have you been in the Colony 't — I was bom here. * ' 
 
 1189. Do you occupy any official position among your sect? — I am General 
 Secretary for the Malay population of Cape Town, and look after their educational 
 wants. I take a great interest in education, as I know the value of it. 
 
 1190. Do the Mahommedans generally take an interest in the education of their 
 children ? — Yes. 
 
 1191. They are anxious for them to go to school ? — Yes. Some go to the Arabic 
 schools, and some to the Christian schools, and the mission schools. My children are 
 all able to read and write. 
 
 1192. Where did they go to school ? — One went to the Marist Brothers' school, 
 and two to the English Church school. 
 
 1193. Are the children regular in their attendance ? — It depends upon the parents 
 a good deal. Some parents are neglectful, the same as in other denominations. 
 
 1194. What is the causer' — Some parents are prejudiced against the children 
 being brought up in the Christian faith, but that is not taken much notice of. I am 
 not particular. 
 
 1195. You do not mind your children being brought up in the Christian faith r* — 
 No ; if they only act up to Christianity. 
 
 1196. I suppose some of the parents want the services of their children, do they 
 not ? — Yes ; more or less. 
 
 1197. Do you think it would be a good thing if the Government appointed some 
 officer to visit the houses of the parents and see if the children went to school, and if 
 not, insist upon their being sent ■' — I am in favovir of compulsory education, and I 
 shovild Uke to see an Act or Parliament passed with that object. A parent has to give 
 his child food and shelter, and he should also see to its education, so that the child may 
 know how to conduct himself and know his superiors from his inferiors, as I do. 
 Personal experience has taught me that. If we had a law for compulsory education, 
 there would be less loafing and rascality carried on among the poorer classes, because 
 education will teach them how to conduct themselves. 
 
 1198. If an officer were appointed, how would you set him about getting the 
 largest numbi-r of your boys and girls to school ? — If there was an Act of Parliament, 
 the parents would i'f frightened, and then they would send then- children to school. 
 
 1199. Have the parents generally the means of panng for the teaching of their 
 children ? — There are a great many poor people in our community, but I think nearly 
 all could pay a penny or two pence a week. As the parents found their children pro- 
 gressing, and saw the advantages, they would not begrudge the money. 
 
 1200. As I vmder.stand, some of the Mahommedan children go to the Dutch 
 Reformed Church Mission schools, some to the Roman CathoUc schools, some to the 
 Church of England schools, and some to your own Arabic schools. Would they prefer 
 continuing in that way, or would they prefer going to a school started by the Govern- 
 ment, irrespective of the clergy, and where, so to speak, they would be separate 'f — I 
 can only say that the Marist Brothers deserve my highest gratitude for the way they 
 taught my child. I would not much mind what school children went to, so long as 
 they were out of the street. 
 
 1201 . What is taught in your Arabic schools ? —They teach Arabic and the Koran. 
 
 1202. They do not teacli arithmetic and geography, and so on there ? — No. If 
 these subjects could be taught in the Arabic sch lol, it woidd be a great boon to us. I 
 read Dutch myself, but I prefer English, it is easier to me. The Dutch grammar is 
 more difficult than the English- 
 
 1208. Are the Aiabic teachers educated men 't — Only in /\jabic. There is one wiio 
 lately came from Mecca ; he was brought up at Claremont, and partly educated there. 
 He has beenlto Turkey, and I believe he undei-stands 1 )ut(h, English, Turkish, and Arabic. 
 
 1204. He does not know how to teach arithmetic, and so on, does he r" — He has 
 not passed the Elementary examination.
 
 96 
 
 Abiioi Barm. iJOo. You would rather prefer a Govemment teacher, would you not ? — I shoiild 
 
 'eb 24th is»i prf^f^r ^h^ Arabic teacher to teach Arabic, and then for a (Tovcrument teacher to teach 
 reading, writing, and arithmetic. 
 
 1206. Do you think if the Government jjrovided such a teacher, your people 
 would subscribe and find a school building where he could teach ':' — I could not under- 
 take to decide that, but I will ascertain ; but I believe if Arabic was taught in the 
 school, all prejudice woiUd die away. 
 
 1207. Have you any school buildings now ? — Arabic is taught on one side of the 
 mosque. 
 
 1208. How many Arabic schools have you ? — I believe there are four or five, but 
 for want of room, two or three are kept in pnvate houses. 
 
 1209. Some of the Malays now go to the mission schools, do they not, and they 
 mix ^x-ith white children ; do you think they would prefer to have their own schools, 
 separate from the white ? — If the white children mix with the coloured, it teaches the 
 latter how to be clean, and so on, and improves them. 
 
 1210. Does it not tend to make the white chikben dirty 'f — No, not if the school- 
 master is strict. My schoolmaster was very strict, and he was very fond of the 
 coloured children. 
 
 1211. What benefit is it to white children to be in such a school? — The white 
 children who went to school with me seemed to bo jealous lest the coloured children 
 should get ahead of them, and so they pushed on. There are many gentlemen in 
 office now who went to school with me ; and there is one Dutch Reformed Church 
 minister I know who was at the same school, and I was his monitor. 
 
 1212. You want to see English and Dutch both taught ? — Y'es ; but not what they 
 call Cape Dutch. I prefer proper Dutch. I do not tali what is (ailed the " taal " in 
 my house. My son is able to read English, Dutch, and Arabic. He was taught 
 English, and he picked up the Dutch. 
 
 1213. Have 3'ou been a teacher yourself ? — Yes. 
 
 1214. Why did you give it up ? — Because I prefer manual labour. 
 
 1215. Do you think there is any chance of getting the young Malays to become 
 schoolmasters and teach in your schools ? — Yes. If there was a proper system 
 started, I think in a few years you might get a good many. 
 
 1216. Why do not any of your young Malays go to the Normal College ? — A 
 friend of mine sent his son, who is slightly coloured, to the Normal College, and there 
 was a great talk about it. 
 
 121 7. Would not they take him ? — No. I do not think colour should make such 
 a distinction. There was a Dutch school in New-street, and I know of a very respect- 
 able boy who was sent there, but they would not take him on account of his colour. 
 
 121S. Can you suggest any way of getting coloured boys taught sufficiently so as 
 to become teachers ? — No, I cannot ; but my idea is that it is best to have white 
 teachers over coloured boys. 
 
 1219. Eev. Moonri's.l You think that coloured boys have more respect for white 
 teachers ? — Yes. 
 
 1220. Dean IloJmes.'] Do you think that the Malay population would resent the 
 visit of an officer to make enquiries as to the ages of their children, and why they did 
 not go to school ? — If an Act of Parliament were passed they would have to submit. 
 
 1221. Dr. Bern/.'\ Do you think that your people generally, would go in ■with the pro- 
 posal to establish Government schools in Cape Town for 3-our communit3' "? — They would. 
 
 1222. And if it became necessary to levy a small local rate to keep the schools 
 going, would they object to that very much ? — That is a difficult question to answer. 
 Some of them would saj' they were too poor, but my own opinion is that money spent 
 on education is never lost. 
 
 122.'5. If a small rate was levied, say by the Municipality, towards the support of 
 these schools, would your people object to it ? — They would rather have it in that form 
 than pay it direct. 
 
 The Rev. Jumex Thompso)^ M.A , examined. 
 The Rev. 1224. Dr Bern/.'] I believe 3^011 are minister of the Weslevan Metropolitan 
 
 ■^"'""'m'a'."'"''"" Church here ?— Y^es'. 
 
 — — 1225. Have 3-ou had some experience in educational matters in up-country towns 
 
 ?eb. 24th, 1891. and in other countries":' — Yes. I was four 3-ears at (ineen's Town, and before that I 
 resided in Ireland. I was District Inspector for eight years, and Secretary to the 
 Education Department of the AVesle3'an Conference for several years I had charge of 
 the schools under the Conference. I have also been examiner in religious knowledge 
 in the schools of that body which are carried on under the national school system of 
 Ireland.
 
 97 
 
 1226. Have you paid some attention to the state of education in Cape Town since TheRer. 
 you have been here ?— Yes ; as far as I have had opportunity. Ja,ne,Uomp.o,.. 
 
 1227. Have you foi-med auy idea as to the number of children on the school rolls 
 
 as compared with the number in tlie town ":' — I think the large number of children in I^et. 24th, 1891. 
 
 the streets shows a very great discrepancy between the possible enrolment aud the 
 
 actual number of children in the town. Th<>re are evidently a great many who do not 
 
 go to any school, and a great many of those on the roll attend school ver}- irregularly. 
 
 I find that is so in one school under my immediate charge, namely, Sydney-street 
 
 mission school. This discrepancy I refer to is I think more apparent than in any town 
 
 I have ever lived in. 
 
 1228. Can you offer any suggestion as to how attendance at school could be better 
 enforced ? — In town areas like this, I should be disposed to recommend compulsory 
 education in some form or other. Ai count should be taken of the number of children 
 not going to school, and the onus put upon the parents to show why they do not go. 1 
 think that a little pressure would secure a verj' great improvement. It does not always 
 arise from the necessity of the children being employed, as in certain agricultural por- 
 tions of the country, where the demand for labour leads to irregularity of attendance. 
 The irregular attendance in Cape Town largely arises from carelessness and indifference 
 on the part of the parents. 
 
 1229. In your opinion, does that apply to families of all creeds and classes ^ — 
 Yes, I think so. Parents should be compelled to show that their children are being 
 taught somewhere, for a certain portion of the year, at all events. 
 
 12o0. With regard to the case of children who are nominallj' on the books of a 
 school, but whose attendance is very irregular, have \ i)u any suggestion to offer by way 
 of getting a more regular attendance ? — In some schools something is done by private 
 effort ; those interested in the school look up the pareots, and much is done in the w.iy 
 of persausion. I think that more might be done in that way. It must bo left largelj- 
 to those interested in the school management and work. When once you get the 
 children on the roll you have a hold on them, which moral suasion may toiuli, but 
 when they are in the streets, enrolled in no school at all, they need more thai; tli.it. 
 
 1231. You do not think that the irregularity of attendanci- or the iiaucit}- of 
 attendance has auy relation to the question of fees '^ — ^That has not been luy experi- 
 ence. I do not think I have heard of an instance wheri3 the question of fees has been 
 any difficulty. 
 
 12132. 1/0 you think it would be advisable, in an area like Cape Town, to employ 
 what is called an attendance otficer ? — I dislike the name ; but certainly some officer 
 would have to be appointed, because the work must be done, and what is anybody's 
 business is nobody's business ; but I would rather see something like a division of 
 the town into districts or wards, and persons interested iu the localitj' giviug informa- 
 tion in the first instance, and then it might become the duty of the authorities to move, 
 but to appoint an officer for the whole town wo-ild, I am afraid, lead to irritation and 
 accomplish very little. 
 
 1233. But if the town were divided into wards it would not be so serious, would 
 it ?— No. 
 
 1234. Would you be prepared to say that, as a last resource, the employment of 
 such an officer would have to be adopted Y — -Yes. 
 
 .1 235. In such a case, would you be in favour of the officer making house to house 
 visitations ? — Yes, I would go that far. 
 
 1236. Mr. Theron.'] I understand you to say tha*: one officer appointed for the 
 whole town would be insufficient ; do you think there should be an officer appointed 
 for every district ? — In order to make the system efficient, more than one would 
 be required. By the time the first officer would get round his work, practically almost 
 a school generation would have passed through without any opportunity of education. 
 
 1237. Would you compel these children who arc picked up iu the street, to be 
 taken to the nearest school 'Y — No ; I .ihould not advocate children being taken 
 by the shoulder and put into the nearest school. I think the fact should be reported 
 
 . to the proper authority, aud less offensive measures taken than merely mai-ching off a 
 cliild to school. The less offensively such things can' be done the better, and oompul- 
 si(m ought to lie (he last resource. 
 
 1238. Do 30U think it necessary that such an officer should be appointed in nearly 
 every ward of the town r* — Yes ; as a means of getting accurate information, which 
 should iu the liist pluce be giveu to the proper authority, whose dut,>- it woidd be in 
 some waj- to see that the children were placed at school or otherwise taught. 
 
 1239. Do not you think the plan would involve very considerable expense ? — Yes, 
 certainly. 
 
 1240. Would that expense have to be borne by the schools and the Uovernment 
 conjointly, by the schools alone, or by the Government alone f* — To that I have not
 
 98 
 
 ''^Tk^^ given attention. The pressing need of the thing is so gi'eat, that the apportionment 
 '"^'m.a"'^"" Diigl't bo arranged afterwards without muoh ditnculty. 
 
 1241. You would propo.se to appoint these officers only in largo towns? — Yes, for 
 
 Feb. 24th, 1891. i\^q present at least. There is not at all the same necessity in the country. 
 
 1242. Are you spi-aking of undenominational schools or only mission schools? — 
 Of schools at large. 
 
 1243. Suppose that these children were taken from the streets and put to school, do 
 you think you would have sufficient accommodation for them at present? — I think not. 
 
 1 244. Then more accommodation would have to be found, would it not ? — Yes, I 
 think so. 
 
 1245. Would you provide such accommodation denominationally? — At pre.sent in 
 Cape Town a very large proportion of the work of education is done outside the public 
 school system, as the Commission is aware. It would be a secondary question with me 
 as to what particular class of school these children were drafted into. I would get 
 them taught somehow, but my preferences have been generally in favour of the unde- 
 nominational system where practicable. 
 
 1246. Have you read Sir Langham Dale's proposal about fourth class undenomi- 
 national public schools ; taking the better class of white children out of the mission 
 schools, and leaving the latter for the coloured children of the lower class ? — I have 
 hardly looked upon it as a proposal to remove the white children out of the mission 
 schools in order to make room for others. In our school at Sydney-street 90 per cent, 
 of the children are white, and yet it is a mission school ; not perhaps in the old sense, 
 but still it comes under that denomination. In that instance. Sir Langham Dale's 
 proposal would not make room for the class of children of whom you speak. I think 
 you would still want larger accommodation, after you had utilised all the present 
 resources. 
 
 1247. In the district where that school )'ou speak of is situated, suppose all the 
 children of school-going age were collected from the streets, would you have sufficient 
 accommodation ? — No ; we should not. 
 
 1248. Not even if Sir Langham Dale's scheme were carried out ? — I doubt 
 whether we should. The number of children in the streets at present so far exceeds 
 that in the schools, that the presumptifin is that the accommodation would not be found 
 sufficient. 
 
 1249. D>: Berry.'] We have had it in evidence that in the mission schools in Cape 
 Town there are between 2,000 and 3,000 children of white parents mixed up with 
 coloured children ; is that not an imfortunate thing in your opinion, and would not Sir 
 Langham Pale's proposed fourth class schools meet the difficulty ? — In the cases I have 
 referred to it woidd mean, I think, the establishment of additional schools. 
 
 1250. Would your religious body be prepared to co-operate in the establishment 
 of such a fourth class school ":' — I cannot speak on behalf of oiir church as a whole, 
 but personally, while I formerly held views looking in a different direction, I should 
 now be prepared to approve of the establishment of fourth class schools in Cape Town 
 and certain other areas. 
 
 1251. Would you go so far as to say that it is the duty of the community to 
 provide larger school accommodation in Cape Town ? — Y"es ; I think so. 
 
 1252. Do you think the community generally wordd co-operate in furthering such 
 a proposal ? — I have some doubts about that ; it would depend upon the way it was 
 put. You can often gain more by church energy, religious zeal, and even sectarian 
 rivalry in the way of initiating schemes of that sort, than by an appeal to the general 
 public, who as a rule are exceedingly apathetic. 
 
 1253. It seems to be the opinion of many that the religious bodies in Cape Town 
 have gone quite as far as they can, with the means at their disposal ; is that so ? — I 
 think they have. 
 
 1254. Dean lloliixs.'] At the S^-dney-strect school referred to by j'ou, I see there 
 are 84 children on the books, and the ordinary daily attendance is 60. Is there any 
 special reason for its being so low ?- — Very often ill health is pleaded as an excuse, and 
 also change of residence, children leaving after short periods. I don"t know of any 
 other special reason, except the general indisposition of parents to insist upon their 
 children atten fling school. 
 
 1255. How many children could ^-ou accommodate in this school ? — With the 
 present room we could not accommodate many. 
 
 1256. About how many vacant places have you ? — We could, I dare say, provide 
 for loO children. There is an ad<litiona] room we might possibly use under certain 
 circumstances. 
 
 1257 You said that a great deal more accommodation would be required in Cape 
 Town if all the children were com]ielled to go to school; are >-ou aware how many 
 places there are in excess of the number of ohildrwi attending at the present time.
 
 99 
 
 Would you be surprised to learn that there are i ,000 vacant flaoes ? — No; I should The Rev. 
 not be at all surprised. I should have thought it was more. That is but small pro- ^•'^^■'p"'-"' 
 portion to the number of children wlio do not go to school. ' 
 
 12o8. You said that you would prefer compulsion being made more a matter for ^®''- 2*""' "*'■"■ 
 private agency than by means of an attendance officer ? — Not private agency. What 
 I meant was, rather through district or divisional agency than by one officer. 
 
 1259. Do you see any objection to the appointment of an officer who should visit 
 every house in bis ward or division, and inquire the number of children of school- 
 going age, and why they were not at school "? — 1 see no objection. 
 
 1260. Do you think the people woidd resent such visitation ? — I think not if it 
 was limited to enquiry and report merely. 
 
 12(31. Woidd you be in favour of any system of fining parents who refused to 
 send their children to school ? - In the fb-st instance 1 should try to avoid everything 
 that appeared offensive or oppressive. 
 
 1262. But if you have a law, you must have some penalty attached for its infringe- 
 ment, must you not ? — I think it would be found that the very fact of enquiry being 
 made would cause quite a large percentage of parents to do their duty in the matter. 
 Of course, as a last resource, something would have to be devised in the wa^^ of a fine. 
 
 1263. Would you s^iggest that in the event of the mission schools being turned 
 into fourth class undenominational public schools, they should be under the same 
 management as at the present time 'i — -I can hardly see in that case, how they would 
 be fourth class undenominational public schools, but I suppose they would have to 
 come under the same kind of management. 
 
 12G4. Do you see any difficulty in the present managers of mission schools forming 
 themselves into Boards of Management for these fourth class schools ? — I think not. 
 
 1265. Rev. Moorrees7\ Are you in favour of theplan of these fourth class imdenomina- 
 tional public schools, as proposed by Sir Langham Dale ? — I can hardly say that I am, 
 and yet I am not absolutely opposed to it. There are several things that modify one's 
 views about it, and much depends upon the actual and detailed working of the system. 
 
 1266. Sir Langham Dale's plan is, that the present managers should remain, and 
 that one or two should be added from the public. Would not you prefer that a certain 
 ward should hold a public meeting of the inhabitants and then elect their own 
 managers for the school ? — That would be, as I have already intimated, to assimilate 
 the fourth class undenominational public schools in their mode of management to the 
 first, second, and third-class schools. I see no objection, however, to continuing the 
 present mode of management in Cape Town. 
 
 1267. Piov. Codzoe?^ As far as your experience goes, do you see any necessity for 
 the establishment of these fourth class schools in Cape Town ? — I do not personally 
 know that there is a necessity for that particular class of school. 
 
 1268. I'ri>mknt7\ The Wesle3'an denomination have five mission schools; one in 
 Sydney-street, one at Mowbray, one at Diep River, one at Deneysdorp, and one at 
 Klipfontein. I find the total number of boys and girls on the books is 421, and the 
 average attendance 285, or about 67 per cent. Your children seem to be more irregular 
 in attendance than the general average all roimd, which is said to be 75 per cent. Can 
 you give us any reason for that ? — At Mowbray the cliildren live long distances off, and 
 very little keeps them away in the country. 
 
 1269. At Klipfontein the average attendance is wonderfully good, 46 on the roll, 
 and 41 is the daily attendance. The worst instance \=> Sydney-street, in Cape Town. 
 There the number on the books is 84 and the daily attendance 60 ? — With regard to 
 Klipfontein, I may say that it is a sort of self-contained mission station. There is a 
 resident catechist and teacher, and there is an absence of external influences to draw 
 the children away. In towns it is more difficult to get children to attend school. 
 
 1270. At your mission schools, do you take in any chiklren that come, without 
 payment if they cannot pay 't — We take several without pajTueut. 
 
 1271. Are there any colom-ed children in j'our mission schools? — With the excep- 
 tion of Sydney-street, they are almost all coloured children. 
 
 1272. Ai-e there any coloured children at Syduey-street !•* — Yes, a few, and there 
 are a few Malays in the Mowbray school. The coloured children at Sydney-street are 
 mostly the ordinary mixed race. 
 
 127^3. And in the other schools the children are neiu-ly all coloured "r^— Yes. 
 
 1274. Sir Langham Dale anticipates that the cifect of the fourth class schools will 
 be to withdi-aw the white children from the mission schools, so will not the tendency be to 
 nearly denude your Syduey-street mission school of all the children ? — Practically the 
 effect would be to turn it into a fourth class school, and then it might be necessary to 
 provide a school for the coloured childi-en. 
 
 |_G. 9— '9L]
 
 100 
 
 TheRe». 127-"). lut tlio nuiiilier of coloured children loll would lio ver)- few, would il not, 
 
 J''"" ^''j^'"P'o"' nf-cording to what you said? — That is true, in that particular school; but, I have no 
 ' doubt, that the number of coloured school-going childi-cn might be increased if wo had 
 
 Feb. 21th, 1S91. them entirely separate from the white and in another school. 
 
 1276. Then I understand that you would prefer an increase of Government aid to 
 these mission schools, if the present mission school system is continued ? — I do not know 
 that 1 would say so, universally, but in many cases Sjieakingof this neighbourhood, I 
 do not suppose that it would make very much difference, but speaking as a whole, I 
 have no doubt it would be an advantage. 
 
 1277. "Which would you prefer — mission schools continued with greater State aid, 
 or the mission school aid to be as at present, and these fourth class undenominational 
 public schools to be initiated ? — I slioidd prefer the former course iu the interests of 
 GUI- bod}- as a whole. 
 
 1278. What grant do you get at the Sydney-street school ? — £60 in all. 
 
 1279. J)r. Bcn-j/.'] What steps, in your opinion, should be taken to give Boards of 
 Management iiei-jietual succos.'iiou, and provide for llu^ tenure of public scliool property. 
 Wlial contribution should be accepted from local bodies such as Divisional Councils 
 and Sluniclpalities for the support of schools and the erection of buildings. Yon know 
 the present system, I suppose, for choosing school managers? — Yes. 
 
 1280. Have you any fault to find with it ? — No ; I cannot say that I have. 
 
 1281. Have you licard of any objections to it ? — No ; not as a sy.stem. 
 
 1282. The great ditRculty seems to be that those Boards cannot hold property; 
 there is no pcrjictual succession. Do you consider tliat a bad or good feature ? — I have 
 not actually heard of any serious inconvenience arising through the want of perpetual 
 succession and the riglit to hold property. 
 
 1283. But if you were informed that difficulties had occuired, do you think any 
 remedy shoidd be applied to meet them ? — Yes ; tliougli I can hardly see how any 
 remedy could be applied that would not involve the destruction of the present sj'stem, 
 namely, the periodical election of guarantors. You would have to have a permanent 
 element in the composition of the committee, as well as provide for its rights in holding 
 property. 
 
 1284. Do you tliink it would be an advantage if these Boards of Management, 
 either in their present form or in any other form, were to be elected by the general 
 public ; by all tJiose on tlie electoral roll of the district ? — Theoretically it seems a 
 perfectly good thing, though I do hot know that it would make any practical difference 
 in many parts of the country, so far as I have seen. 
 
 1285. Sup])osing it was found necessary to charge the local rates with certain 
 expenses in connection with the school, would you then be in favour of the whole body 
 of managers being eliosen by the public, or should there be nominees on such Boards ? 
 — I should be in favour of a certain proportion of nominees. 
 
 1280. Would you say Government nominees ? — Yes ; say one-third. 
 
 1287. And all the rest of the members chosen by the voters of the district ? — Yes. 
 
 1288. Would tlie ordinary divisions of the Colony be too large to be constituted 
 into school districts ? — I am inclined to think so. My knowledge is not sufficiently 
 accui'ate to enable me to say definitely 
 
 1289. Do you think Cape Town would be too large to make into one school 
 district, with one Board ? — No. 
 
 1290. Suppose a body was elected in Cape Town to manage the schools of the 
 town, and with power to rate the inhabitants, do you think it would do away with the 
 necessity of the Government grant? — Not immediately. 
 
 1291. Can you form an}- idea as to the proportion in which the seliool-rate should 
 bear upon the people and the Government grant given ? — Whatever might ultimately 
 happen in Cape Town, tlie local rates should bear as lightly as possible at first, because 
 of the ])eculiar circumstances of the community and the fact that so many residents in 
 Cape Town have little interest in the matter. 
 
 1292. Supposing it was proposed that the local rates should be equal to the total 
 fees accruing to the i)ubilic schools, and that the Government grant should be equal to 
 the sum of the two, how would such a system meet your views. The point I want to 
 an-ive at is, what woidd be a fair contribution from local bodies? — I think the local 
 rate should not be less than one-fourth. 
 
 1293. Woidd such a system be a fair one do yon think ? — I see no objection to it, 
 if tlip matter of fees be arranged ; but so much depends on the expenditure of the 
 school and what is to be done with the money, tliat unless you had a scheme for the 
 gradiition of fees ami the remission of fees, it is difficult to say offhand whether it 
 would apply all round. 
 
 1294. Would you be in favour of some such proposal ? — I see no objection to it, 
 subject to the details referred to.
 
 101 
 
 ^295. The general principle being that the local bodies contribute one-fom-th, the The Rev. 
 fees one-fourth, and the Grovernment one-half? — Yes. J">ne» Thompton. 
 
 1296. Ml-. Tlicron.'] Is your school at Sydney-.street under a Board ? — No, it is a — ' 
 mission school pm-e and .simple. Feb. 24th, 1881. 
 
 1297. Have you any knowledge as to the appointment of Boards in this country ; 
 have you had anything to do with them ? — Yes, in other towns, though I have not 
 been on any School Board. 
 
 1298. You have no practical knowledge then ? — No. 
 
 1299. Dertn Holmes.^ You stated that in yonr opinion there should be Govern- 
 ment nominees on the Board, would you state your grounds for that 't — Largely to 
 counterbalance local and temporary influences. At present the continuance of the 
 Board is a disjointed kind of thing. Various circumstances may occur, party feeling 
 and (ither complications may arise, where the election is at the mercy perhaps of some 
 sudden wave of feeling ; and I think the fact of the Grovernment being represented 
 on the Board woidd tend to counteract that. 
 
 J 300. You stated that you thought the Government grant should not be imme- 
 diately withdrawn, why should it ever be withdrawn, seeing that it is bj' means of the 
 grant that it retains it.s control over tlie school ? — It should not be withdrawn at all, 
 if the necessity exists for its continuance. 
 
 1301. Do not you think it preferable for the local rates to pay all the deficiencies 
 that might arise in the school income, after the fees and the Government grant have 
 been collected ? — I should prefer, I think, in the first instance, that the rates should be 
 fixed in a certain proportion. 
 
 1302. Rec. Coe.tz€e.~\ Are yoi; acquainted with the constitution of Municipalities 
 and Divisional Councils, and the way in which members are elected ? — I am afraid not. 
 
 1303. You cannot express an opinion as to whether their interference in school 
 matters would be beneficial or not to the schools ? — I should say it depends ver^' much 
 upon the men who compose them. 
 
 Professor Van der Tituk examined. 
 
 believe you are Professor of the Dut ^ 
 
 at the South African College ? — Yes ; and also at the Soutli African (College School. 
 
 1305. How long have you been there? — In connection with the college ten j'ears, Feb. 24th, isvi. 
 and with the school six years. 
 
 1306. Have you read the instructions to this Commission ? — Yes. 
 
 l-U-T. On what points can you give us any information ? — I can speak as to 
 instruction m the English and Dutch languages. 
 
 1308. Is your knowledge limited to Cape Town ? — Yes. 
 
 1309. 3Ir. Theron.~\ Is Dutch taught in the South African College School ? — Yes; 
 as long as 1 have been there, and also before my time. 
 
 1310. Do you compel any English children to attend the Dutch classes? — There 
 is no comjiulsion at all. 
 
 1311. Do you find any English children taking up Dutch ? — Yes; very many. 
 
 1312. Do they give any reasons why they take it up ? — Tliey think it will be 
 useful to them in after life. They have expressed that opinion to me. During the 
 last few years tliere has been a greati-r desire to learn Dutch. In the College School 
 between 70 and 80 boys learn Dutch. 
 
 1313. How many boys altogether learn Dutch? — About 11-3. 
 
 1314. They learn it of their own free will; they are not compelled? — No. 
 l31o. The pupils who attend the College School, are they first i;cginners, or do tiiey 
 
 c ^me from other schools? — They arc divided into two classes — tlie senior and junio; c'.astef. 
 Most of those who come to the school for the first time have not learned Dutch at all. 
 
 1316. Do those pupils come mostly from the country or the town? — From the 
 subm-bs, and from the town also. 
 
 1317. Among the new coiners who have not learned Dutch at all, are there many 
 children of Dutch parents ? — They are for the greater part children of Dutch origin. 
 
 1318. Do they work up to any standard in Dutch ? — The college school is con- 
 sidered a feeder to the college, ami they are admitted to the latter when they have 
 passed the School Higher examination in Dutcli, or an examination equal to it. 
 
 1319. They have to pass that examination before they are admitted to the 
 college ? — Yes. 
 
 ' 1320. Do you find it diificult to instruct pupils in the two languages atthe same time? 
 — They do not learn any other subject except the language through the medium of Dutth. 
 1331. Have they any history in Dutch ? — No. 
 
 1322. Why not ?— 1 think it is not allowed by tha Comicil in tlio college school. 
 
 2
 
 102 
 
 Profeatm- 1323. Is it not perhaps from the want of proper books ? — I do not think that is 
 
 J<in der l uuk. t]jg j,]jig,f pause. If they liail the books, it would probably be the same. In my opinion, 
 Feb. 24tli, 1891. the studj' of Dutch sliould be based npon the motlier tongue, and the mother tongue 
 of most of the boys is English. They ma)' know Capo Dutch, some ot them, hut still 
 all the instruction is tlirough the medium of English. Another diffiodty is, that these 
 80 boys arc divided into two classes, and it is a difficult thing tcT teach a class of 40 or 
 50 boys. I find that tiii'V profit iii' ic when I do not nse any book ; so with these large 
 numbers, I have commenced to instruct tlie boys of tjie lower class without hooks. I 
 give them exercises in grammar and so on. and teach them viva voci'. Next session, 
 however, they will have an Elementary grammar. 
 
 1^24. From your knowledge of the population of the Colony, is it desirable that 
 Dutch should be more taught in our schools ? — I certainly think so. 
 
 1325. Take any child used to ('ap(( Dutcli, wliich would be most difficidf, to teach 
 it Dutch or Englisli ? — I think such a cliiid wduld learn Dutcli more easily, es]jecially 
 wlien the teacher has been here in tlie Colony for some years. He can eas ly adapt his 
 laTiguage to the child. 
 
 1326. You hold to the idea that Dutch children, when starting, should receive 
 their first instruction in Dutch ? — Yes. 
 
 1327. Do you tliink that would facilitate tlieir learning English afterwards ? — Yes. 
 
 1328. Do you think the Elementary examination, as arranged at present, is any 
 obstacle in the way of the study of Dutch? — It makes a difference in my opinion, and 
 I oiinsider that the omission of Dutcli is a drawback. 
 
 1329. Would yiiu include a llutch paper in the Elementary examination, as a test 
 of the knowledge of Dutch ? — Yes ; certainly. 1 would give an easy paper in Dutch 
 in the Elementary examination. 
 
 1330. If that were done, how would you count the marks ; would you ])ut the 
 paper on an etpial footing with any other language ? Would you give the same num- 
 ber of marks to a child doing the Dutch paper as you would give to a child doing the 
 English paper? — Yes. 
 
 1331. Do you think there would beany difficulty in finding examiners for such 
 papers ? — I do not see any difficult}'. I think thf paper sliould not be made too 
 diltieult. It might be very difficult to get schools so far as to bring the boys to learn 
 Dutch for the Elementary exarainat-ion, I think that Cape history and Cape 
 geography should be taught through the medium of the Dutch language ; but there 
 are no good books for those subjects. 
 
 1332. According to your experience, it is desirable that some provision should be 
 made in the Elementary examination for Dut<'h ? — Yes. 
 
 1333. BirDi ITolmi's.'] Do you thinJi it desirable to make Dutch compidsory in the 
 Miitrioulation examination, like it is in the Civil Servi(se examination ? — -I would not 
 make it compulsory, but I would make the paper more ditlicult, and give it more 
 marks. 
 
 1334. Do you think that would have an}- effect upon the number of candidates 
 for the Matriculation examination ? — I do not think so. Just at present very few 
 candidates for matriculation take French or German. I think most of them take 
 Dutch. 
 
 1335. Do you think it possible to secure examiners who would be competent tn 
 examine in both Dutch and English, and set the same papers in the two languages ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 1336. 2Ir. lioiraii.'] I understood you to say that you have 70 to 80 boys taking 
 Dutch ; is that a-^ increase on former times ? — Yes ; a great increase. 
 
 1337. To what do you attribute that increase ? — I attribute it in the first place to 
 Dutch being compulsory in the Civil Service. Many people send their cluldren t(t 
 Dutcli classes, as they intend them to go in for the Civil Service examination. More 
 general intei'est also is taken in the language all through the Colony. 
 
 1338. 1 und(>rsto()(l you to say that there arc two classes, and you divide the 7C or 
 80 boys accordingly ; what subjects do you teach the junior class? — 1 teach them the 
 elements of gi'ammar, grammatical exercises, dictation, and easy reading. 
 
 1339. And the higher class ?— Parsing and analysis, more advanced grammar and 
 composition ; Dutch reading, and also translation fi'om English into Dutch and Dutch 
 into English. 
 
 1340. Do they write Dutch letters? — Yes. 
 
 1341. And essays also ? — Tliev arc hardly advanced enough for tliat. 
 
 1342. When the class is engaged in reading, do you question the pupils on the 
 subject-matter of what they are reading ? — Yes ; I generally do it in this way : I give 
 them ten minutes or so to read a Dutch [liecc, which they have to prepare first at home. 
 Then thej' read it in class, after which the books are closed, and I go over it myself 
 with them, and they have to answer questions to show that thoy understand it. I
 
 103 
 
 explain to them anything they may not understand ; and then the books are opened, Professor 
 and there is reading aloud in the class. ^'"' ^" T uuk. 
 
 1343. Do you do all this through the medium of Duteli or English ? — Through Feb. 24th, 1891. 
 the medium of English. 
 
 1344. Do not you think that is one of the chief reasons why our boys cannot 
 express themselves properly in Dutch ? — That is the very reason. 
 
 1345. We teach Dutch as we teach Greek and Latin ? — Yes. It is a great mis- 
 take. From my experience in the teaching of modern languages in Holland I know 
 that bo3's who have learned French or German for three or four months are able, after 
 this period, to follow the lessons of their masters, when given through the medium 
 of the language taught. Many French teachers in Holland come from Switzerland ; 
 they do not know any Dutch, and yet the results of their work are as a rule excellent. 
 
 1346. Is that how you account for the little progress made in good Dutch ? — Yes 
 
 1347. You spoke about the Srhool Higher examination; I thinli I understood you 
 to say that you would make Dutch compulsory in the Matriculation examination for all 
 students ? — No, not compulsory. 
 
 1348. Should they have the option of taking Dutch, French, or German ? — I 
 think that Dutch should not be exactly on the same footing as French and German 
 in the Matriculation e.\:amination ; it should not be considered a foreign language. 
 The papers should be more difficult in Dutch in the Matriculation examination than 
 they are at present ; but I would not say make it compulsory. 
 
 1349. Do you think for the Matriculation examination, questions in general 
 history should be in the Dutch language '^ — I doubt if it would be pos.sible in the 
 present state of the Dutch language to arrange that. 
 
 1350. Rev. Moorrccs.'] I suppose you get a good number of students at the college 
 from other schools, do you not ? — Yes. 
 
 1351. Do you find that their Dutch has been neglected, or are they proficient in 
 it as a i-ule ? — As a rule, the knowledge ])0ssessed by students coming from the coun- 
 try is not at all inferior to that of students from towu schools. 
 
 1352. In most of the schools, judging from your experience, is Dutch efficiently 
 taught ? — I do not think so. 
 
 1353. Those who come to your college from country schools have not attained 
 a very high standard in Dutch, have they ? — It is not very high as a rule, but it is 
 not inferior to that of town students. It depends a great deal upon what schools they 
 have been to. 
 
 1354. Do you consider that proper Dutch is a foreign language to our Dutch- 
 speaking children ? — Certainlj' not. With regard to so-called Cape Dutch, there is 
 not much difference between good Cape Dutch, spoken by gentlemen of culture, and 
 high Dutch spoken in Holland and some of the dialects in Holland. I find also that 
 boys who speak Cape Dutch can follow nearly every word in high Dutch. 
 
 1355. So that the Afrikander child knows Dutch, with the exception of the 
 grammar and a few difficult words ? — Yes. 
 
 1356. I believe you received yom- education in Holland ? — Yes. 
 
 1357. I believe the practice there as well as in many Continental schools, is to 
 have two or three languages taught ? — Yes. 
 
 1358. Do you think that Dutch ought to be introduced into the Elementary 
 examination ? — Yes. The English paper for that examination provides for writing 
 passages from dictation, parsing of words, etymology, analysis of sentences, and 
 Eughsh composition. I would have that paper also .set in Dutch, and give a boy the 
 option of answering one or the other, with the same number of marks. 
 
 1359. What time do you devote in your school to the teaching of the Dutch 
 language ? — In the South African College school the senior class gets three hours a 
 week and the junior class two hours. 
 
 1360. Do you ever find any difficulty in getting youi- pupils to go to a Dutch 
 class ? — No. 
 
 1361. From your experience in this country, do you think that due attention is 
 being paid to the study of the Dutch language r* — I do not think sufficient attention is 
 paid to it. 
 
 1362. Has the study of Dutch been neglected to some extent? — Dutch, like 
 French and German, are considered in the college (not so much in the school) as a sort 
 •r appendage, as it were, to other subjects, and that idea has become so woven into 
 the educational system, that it is difficult to get it out. I - think the unfavourable 
 results in regard to the teaching of Dutch are due, not so much to the teacher, as to 
 that cucuiustance. Other subjects are considered as of far more important', ami more 
 time is devoted to them. In the college junior classes they get two hours a week for 
 Dutch, fom- or five hours for Latin, and five hours for chemistry, and so in proportion 
 to other subjects.
 
 104 
 
 frofeuor 1363. IIow manv hours are devoted to English ^ — I think one hour daily. The 
 
 ran der Tm,^^ ^ j^ ^.j^^^^ j,^ ^j^^ eolli'-ge has throc liours Dutch. 
 
 Feb. 24tli, isyi. l;{t)4. Are any subjects taught in Dutch as a medium of instruction? — No. I 
 
 attempted to give some lessons in Cape history in the school, and ai)i)liod to the 
 
 Education Department for some Dutch copies of Theal's Cape History, but could not 
 
 get what I wanted. There were English, but not Dutch copies. 
 
 13G5. Is instruction in Dutch given through the medium of English "r* — Yes ; but 
 not in the senior classes of the college. 
 
 1366. Do you think there would be any objection to making Dutch optional in 
 the Elementary examination ? — No. I do not think so. 
 
 1367. Would it in your opinion encourage the study of the Dutch language ? — 
 Yes; decidedly. 
 
 1368. Supposing the present English paper for the elementary examination was 
 also set in Dutch, and that boys could select whether they would take it or not, do not 
 you think in that case, if no special marks were given for Dutch, candidates would not 
 care to go in for the language? — No, certainly not. It w^ould not have any influence 
 on the study of Dutch. Students would still go in for the Elementary examination, 
 and they would take up Dutch as a step to the School Higher and other examinations. 
 
 1369. Supposing you had a class of boys who could only understand tliis con- 
 versational Dutch, and you had to give them a training for a certain examination, 
 would they make better progress if they built on their knowledge of the Dutcli 
 language, or would they make better progress if you taught them simply tlirougli t]\e 
 medium of the Engli.sh language ? — If a boy only knows the conversational Dutdi of 
 the Colony, and comes to scliool without having learned anytliing, I think the time 
 employed in teaching him through the medium of English would be wasted ; but if he 
 gradually learns the two languages side by side, especially English grammar, tlien he 
 would soon be able to make sufficient progress in both. 
 
 1370. From yom- experience, would you suggest ttiat the study of the Dutch 
 language and the study of the history of South Africa be through the medium of the 
 Dutch language ? — Yes. It would be a great step towards improvement. 
 
 1371. Tve>i'idcntP\ You would not compel a parent to have his child taught history 
 through Dutch, would j^ou ? — I think that parents would be sensible enough to see the 
 advantage, and not put any obstacle in the way, because if they sent their children to 
 school to learn Dutch grammar and Dutch reading, it would simply be another means 
 of acquiring the language. 
 
 1372. But if a parent wanted his child to learn history through the English 
 .language, you would not force the child to be taught history in Dutch, would you ? — 
 
 I woidd not force a child ; but I should consider it a part uf Dutch history. 
 
 1373. You said you would not make Dutch compulsory, but if you have it as tli(> 
 only medium for learning Cape history, you do make it compulsory '< — I should con- 
 sider the teaching of Cape history in Dutch as a part of the study of the Dutcli 
 language. 
 
 1374. Br. Bcrvy7\ What object have boys in learning Dutch ; is it from the love 
 of Dutch literatiu-e ? — I think parents want their children taught Dutch, because the 
 language is gaining ground in the Colony, and a knowledge of it is useful. 
 
 1375. To what luitionality do boys at the college mostly belong ? — Tliey are 
 mostly colonial boys ; English or Dutch, and a few are of German extraction. 
 
 i376. Isther« a preponderance of any nationality ?— Most of the boys are colonial. 
 
 1377. Do the boys of English parentage take kindly to learning Dutch ? — Yes. 
 
 1378. I understood you to .say that the study of the Dutcli language hud been 
 neo-lected; do you think the Colony has lost anything by that? — I ihhdc educalion 
 generally lias suffered through it. Dutch is far more appreciated now than it was 
 before. 
 
 Mr. D. C. dc Waal, M.L.A., examined. 
 Mr. 137!). Pn.-ihle)tt.'\ I beheve you ai'e member of the House of A.ssembly for Piquet- 
 
 ^' m'l a""'' berg, and 'live in Cape Town ?— Yes. 
 
 ' ' I3S0. Have you had any experience in educational matters? — I cannot say that 
 
 Feb. 24th, 1891. J have, but the question of education came before Parliament last session. 
 
 1381. Ai'e 3"0U a member of the Divisional Council ? — No ; I am a member of the 
 Town Council here. I was Mayor last year. 
 
 1382. Have you ever been member of any Divisional Council ? — No. 
 
 1383. Do you understand the present undenominational school system ? — Yes. 
 1884. And the system of guarantors? — Yes. 
 
 1385. Do you think the present system a good one ? — -I do not see why it should 
 not continue.
 
 105 
 
 1386. The guarantors in many instances find it a hard.-^liip upon them to have to Mr. 
 pay up for any deficiency when it exists, and it is thought that the burden should be ^'' jj L./T""'' 
 distributed more among the community. Are you of opinion that the ratepayers should '— ' 
 
 be called upon to contribute what the guarantors now do? — I cannot speak for the Feb. 24tb, 1891. 
 country, but in town it would certainly be objectionable. We in Cape Town already 
 pay as much as sixpence in the £, and the people should not be taxed any more. 
 
 1387. At present the tax falls on a few of the ratepayers who happen to be guaran- 
 tors, why should a towni generally object to pay what a few of its citizens have to pay ? 
 — A few ought not to make themselves responsible. 
 
 1388. Then who ought to pay, do you think ? — The parents wlio send their 
 children to school, or let the Government step in, as is the case elsewhere. 
 
 1389. 3Tf. Roivcoi.'] How would you do with the case of children running about 
 the streets ? — The only thing is to make education compulsory, but I do not say I am 
 in favour of compulsion. 
 
 1390. But who is to pay for the necessary machinery? —The parents should pay 
 at least Jialf and the Government the other half. If any municipality asks for such 
 rating power as you suggest, let them have it. 
 
 1391. You would not make it compulsory upon municipalities to adopt the 
 S3'stem, but where they are willing to step in and undertake the responsibility, you 
 would approve of it ? — Yes. 
 
 1392. Do you think in Cape Town the educational wants are adequately supplied ? 
 — Pretty fairly. There is no occasion for any parent to keep his child out of school if 
 he wants to send it. There are schools enough. The poorer class can send their 
 children to school without pajdng. 
 
 1393. There are no free schools, are there ? --There is a Government grant. At 
 all events, there is no complaint in Cape Town about the want of means for education. 
 
 1394. Mr. Rouan.'] Are you in favour of an Educational Board for Cape Town, 
 just as 3'ou have a Divisional Council to look after the roads?— I do not see any 
 objection to that. 
 
 1395. How should it be appointed ; would you have a nominee fi'om the Govern- 
 ment, the Divisional Council, and the Municipality ? — Yes, that would be the best 
 thing. 
 
 1396. You are not in favour of school rates ? — No. 
 
 1397. Of course this School Board for Cape Town would have to take cognizance 
 of the attendance, would you be in favour of a compulsory law to force children to 
 attend school ? — No, I do not think it is necessary here. 
 
 1398. What would be the use of a School Board then ? — Simply to investigate 
 matters, and report to the Government or Parliament if necessary ; but I really hardly 
 see that a School Board is wanted. 
 
 1399. Rer. Coetzce.'] Are yow acquainted with the feeling of the people generally 
 as to direct taxation ? — -Yes. 
 
 1400. Do you think if a tax was levied for school purposes, that there would be a 
 general agitation set on foot urging the abolition of all Government schools? — In 
 Cape Town there would be an outcry I am sure, I cannot speak for the country. 
 
 14ul. Mr. Theron.'] Have you any children being educated in the Normal College, 
 Cape Town ? — Yes. 
 
 1402. Do thej' receive instruction in Dutch there ? — Yes. 
 
 1403. Do you consider that necessary ? — Most decidedly ; but I think they might 
 receive a little more education in Dutch. 
 
 1404. You think that better provision should be made for teaching it ? — Yes. 
 They do receive some instruction, but not suflicient in my opinion. There is a Dutch 
 teacher at the Nonnal College School, Mr. Viljoen ; he is a very capable man, but he 
 ought to have assistants. 
 
 1405. From your experience, you consider that Dutch taught to boys is useful 
 to them in after life ? — Certainly. 
 
 1406. Do you mean in commercial transactions ? — Yes, in every transaction. In 
 our business, we have to write quite as many Dutch as English letters. We have a 
 good many customers who say, that if we write tliera an English letter, they will tear 
 it up, because they cannot read it. 
 
 1407. Is Dutch necessary in the Civil Service ? — Yes; undoubtedly. They cannot 
 do without it. 
 
 1408. And in the Railway Department also ?— Yes ; still more so. I know fi-om 
 experience how awkward it is sometimes in the country- when the railway employes 
 canuot talk Dutch with the farmers. I \va\o travellcrl a good deal, not only in this 
 Colony, but in the Free State and Transvaal, and I have always pressed ujion young 
 people the desirability of their acquiring Dutch, as they will regret aftorwivrds not 
 understanding both languages.
 
 106 
 
 Mr. 1409. Would you compel English children to loam Dutch? — No; I would not 
 
 M.L.A."" ' ^oi'ce them, but I would say that if they applied for any situation they should know 
 
 both languages. No one need be compelled to learn a language which thoy do not 
 
 Feb. 24th, 1891. -want to know. 
 
 1410. You would not compel an English child to learn Dutch, and you would not 
 compel a Dutch child to learn English ; you would give full liberty ? — I would compel 
 nobody ; but if a boy wants a situation in the Civil Service or elsewhere I woidd say 
 he must know both languages — English and Dutch. 
 
 Mr. 0. D. DoiKilUer examined. 
 
 Mr 
 0. D.Douaiiur 1411. F.resident .'\ I believe you have a school in Cape Town ? — Yes. 
 
 1412. How long have you been in the Colony ? — About 30 years. 
 
 Fob. 24th, 1891. i4i3_ Have you a large school ?— Yes. 
 
 1414. Do you receive any aid from Government? — No; mine is a voluntary 
 school. 
 
 1415. Have you had opportunities for watching the undenominational school 
 system and the mission school system in their operation ? — Yes. 
 
 1416. Have you seen the points submitted to this Commission for consideration ? 
 — Yes. I have not gone into them very carefully. 
 
 1417. What is your opinion about the irrcgidarity of attendance in town .schools ? 
 — With regard to mission schools there will always be a very great difficulty I think, 
 until something like compulsory education is introduced. Of course jieople liere arc 
 not accustomed to anything of the kind, we are so differently situated ; but it is in 
 vogue all over the Continent. 
 
 1418. Do you find any irregularity of attendance in your own school ?— Not the 
 slightest. I think it is an exceptional thing if four or five boys are absent out of 120. 
 Our attendance is exceedingly good. It is only among the lower classes, in the mission 
 schools, where a difficulty is found ; in all the bettor class schools there is no such thing 
 in existence. 
 
 1419. Do you know anything about Boards of Management ? — I have never been 
 under a Board of Management, except a Church Board for some time, at St. Mark's. 
 I took over a large mission school in that district. 
 
 1420. What steps do you think should bo taken to give the Boards of Manage- 
 ment perpetual succession, and provide for the tenure of public school property ? — I 
 think it would be a very good plan if the Municipality were to levy a school rate. 
 
 1421. Have you formed any opinion on the subject of education in English and 
 Dutch ? — That is a very delicate question just at the present moment. We have 
 Dutch taught in our school every day. 
 
 1422. The medium of instruction is English, is it not ? — Everyone who wishes to 
 join the Dutch class can do so. A Dutch master is provided for the purpose, and 
 lessons are given every day. 
 
 1423. Do you find that parents are anxious to have their children taught Dutch ? 
 — Many of them. They see the utility of it in various ways. 
 
 1424. Is the teaching of Dutch general in your school ? — No, not every boy takes 
 Dutch. It is taught in the same way as French and German. A teacher is paid for 
 the puii^ose. 
 
 1425. In your own school do you think it is advisable to alter that system ? — I 
 do not think so at present. 
 
 1426. You would not make Dutch the medium of instruction would you ? — If we 
 attempted that for examinations now, it would be a great difficulty. A boy may be 
 
 e-epared to pass an examination in English, but if he finds some questions put in 
 utch, he would fail altogether most likely. 
 
 1427. You think it would not be fair to boys ? — No. 
 
 1428. Do you think under such circumstances that your school would suffer ? — 
 Yes it would siiffer with regard to a good many English boys, they would leave and 
 go elsewhere, where English only is taught. Take the case of a boy ten years old, if 
 he were obliged to learn Dutch, it would take him three years to acquire it properly. 
 
 1429. If you get a Dutch boy, and you want to teach him the three R's, say, 
 which is the best medium of instruction, English or Dutch ? — If it were entirely a 
 Dutch school, it would be quite as easy to teach such a boy in Dutch as English ; only 
 it would happen that a boy who was exclusively taught in Dutch would not know 
 much of English, and botli languages being so important, he would suffer. 
 
 1430. Is it wise do you think to have the two languages running side by side ? — 
 The teaching could be combined, but English would still be the language, and I think 
 it ought to continue so ; certainly in aU large town schools it is better for boys.
 
 107 
 
 1431. Do you think that Dutch ought to be more taught than it is now?— I Mr. 
 
 think every good school is taking it up. ''• ^- DoualUer, 
 
 14:32. And is sound teaching in Dutch imparted ? — As far as we possibly can. It Feb. ii^, i89i. 
 is difficult for some boys to learn high Dutch, especially those coming from the country 
 districts. It is almost a new language to them, even though they are Dutch boys. 
 There is quite a different pronunciation. 
 
 1433. Have you had anything to do with schools among the agricultural popula- 
 tion ? — I have very often received pupils from farmers ; in no other way. 
 
 1434. Do those pupils come pretty well prepared ? — Not as a rule ; generally 
 speaking, if a boy comes from the country, it is quite an exception if he enters the 
 second standard. 
 
 1435. How would you improve that ? — It can be done only by home training, 
 combined with farm schools. 
 
 1436. How would you improve these farm schools ? — I really do not know of any 
 system just at the present moment. If a number of farmers living pretty near each 
 other, combined and had a teacher, it might be done. At some places private teachers 
 are kept, and they are allowed to take pupils. Sometimes pupils come to us who have 
 had no education whatever. 
 
 1437. Is there anything you can suggest to the Commission upon the other 
 suDJects ? — There is one thing that I should like to mention, and that is that the 
 matter of religion in schools requires very careful handling. It is an important point, 
 and it seems to me that the system introduced by the Government in public 
 undenominational schools is a very good one indeed, meeting the case exactly. It has 
 been in force for years. I allude to the conscience clause, which provides that a child 
 is not compelled to attend religious instruction in school, but religious instruction is 
 given, either before or after school hours. 
 
 1438. Would you approve of the clergy of different denominations coming to a 
 public school, either before or after school hours, and each one teaching his own form 
 of religion ? — Most certainly I would allow it. In oiir schools, ministers from the 
 English church come and teach, and the Jewish minister takes pupils who belong to 
 that persuasion. 
 
 1439. Then you have children of various denominations in your school? — Yes; 
 every denomination is represented except Roman Catholics. 
 
 1440. Do you teach religion in your school ? — No. We leave it to the ministets 
 who attend. Several of them come. 
 
 1441. Do they all teach in the same room? — We make different arrangements, as 
 we find it convenient. It was so from the first beginning in our school. Sometimes 
 the ministers attend early in the morning and sometimes in the afternoon. The Dutch 
 Reformed Church ministers have their pupils attend their own confirmation classes. 
 
 1442. Do you consider your school equal to a first class undenominational public 
 school ? — Yes. 
 
 1443. Have you seen Sir Langham Dale's suggestion in his report for 1887, rela- 
 tive to "extension of aid," and do you approve of that? — I think it would be desirable. 
 My feeling always has been that there should be more than one first class public school 
 in a large town like Cape Town. There is room for four good public schools, I am siu-e. 
 There is only one, the South African College School. 
 
 1444. Do you think that you have a claim to any Government aid ? — I think so, 
 after the work we have done, and I am sure, Sir Langham Dale would acknowledge it. 
 
 1445. Have you ever asked for it ? — -No, but Sir Langham Dale has told me over 
 and over again that our's would be one of the schools justly entitled to State aid, for 
 we have been doing the work of a public institution. 
 
 1446. But you make a profitout of your school, do you not ? — We live out of it, 
 the expenses are very heavy. I could do very much better if I had aid. 
 
 1447. But you would not expect the Government to contribute, so as to increase 
 your profit, would you ? — If I had State aid, I could appoint even better masters than 
 I do at the present moment, and by paying them higher salaries, there would be some 
 inducement to them to stay longer than the term of three years for which I generally 
 engage them. I get the best possible men I can under the circumstances. 
 
 1448. Would you not interfere then with the undenominatioual public schools? — 
 I do not think so. 
 
 1449. Would it tend to improve them, do you think ? — I think there would be 
 more competition, and more real work in consequence of it. Every school would then 
 really stand on its own merits, as we do now. I have as large and efficient a staff as 
 anyone in town. 
 
 1450. How many boys have you in your school ? — 120, and a staff consisting of five 
 teachers, besides myself. They are all imported men from England, except the lady teacher. 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] P
 
 108 
 
 '*''• 1451. Is the Dutch teacher imported ? — Tie was born in Holland .and is resident 
 
 0. I). IliualHfr, , '■ 
 
 Feb. 24th, 1S91. 1452. Mr. Theron.'] You said that if you introduced compulsory teaching in 
 
 Dutch, then the English boys would suffer. Suppose you made it optional, would the 
 boys suffer then ■' — No, decidedly not ; but even bo3's of Dutch descent would find it 
 very much more difficult now to prepare for an examiuatiou proper in Dutch, than they 
 do in English. Hitherto they have been trained in English, and it would take them 
 five or six years before they gave satisfaction, unless they ai-e so accustomed to the 
 language that they are able to express themselves properly. 
 
 1453. If it were optional, then you see no objection Y — No. 
 
 1454. Dr. Berry.'] Would a Government grant enable you to lower your fees? — 
 I would rather use the money for the purpose of getting better appliances, and obtain- 
 ing men of a higher standard. 
 
 1455. I suppose that a school like yours would only be for the better class of boys 
 in town H — Quite so. 
 
 1456. It would not meet the wants of the lower classes, would it ? — No. The 
 parents of the boys are chiefly men engaged in business. 
 
 1457. Dean Holmes.] You say that you have imported all your teachers ; how is 
 it you are not able to find a supply of teachers in the Colony ? — At the present moment 
 it is almost impossible. All the really able men have their appointments, and are not 
 likely to change ; but we give very good salaries ; they average about £200 a-year. I 
 consider that it costs me about i'lUUO a-year for salaries and board alone. 
 
 1458. Do you think if Dutch were made compulsory for tlie Matriculation 
 examination, it would have any effect on the number of candidates ? — At first it might. 
 I think that preparing for the Matriculation examination interferes with the ordinary 
 work of the school. I would much rather that it was done by the College alone. 
 
 1459. Rer. Moorrees.] I understood you to say that for the present you think it 
 would not be expedient to put Dutch on a better footing than French or German ; do 
 not you consider that as a matter of justice, seeing that Dutch is the language of a 
 great portion of the people in this country, it ought to be on a better footing i" — Cer- 
 tainly I think Dutch should be taught and well learned, but if pupils had to go up for 
 examination now they would fail most miserably. If Dutch is taught it should be the 
 language spoken in Holland, not the language spoken in this country. 
 
 14IJ0. I ask, as a matter of principle ? — Most certainly. 
 
 1461 . Do you think it would be expedient to introduce compulsory education in Cape 
 Town ? — With regard to the lowest element of the population I consider it desirable. 
 
 1462. And is it practicable ? — Decidedly. 
 
 14613. Do 3'ou approve of an attendance officer being appointed to look up children 
 in the streets ? — That wo\ild be almost absolutely necessary. I do not kuow how you 
 would carry out the thing otherwise. 
 
 1464. Do you think sucti an officer ought simply to take up children he finds in 
 the streets, or should he visit the parents' houses and make enquiries ? — In the first 
 place he should report to those in authority, and then visit tlie parents. It all depends, 
 of course, upon the powers which you give the officer. 
 
 1465. With reference to the fourth class schools, Sir Langham Dale proposes that 
 the present managers of the mission schools should apjjly for the establishment of such 
 schools, and then that the same men should be managers of them, with the addition of 
 two or three of the public. Do you approve of that course, or is it better that the 
 managers should be chosen by the inhabitants of the district ? — For the present I 
 think the managers in charge now might be entrusted with the duties, but of course, at 
 the system developed, other steps would be necessary. I know there is very grea- 
 difficulty in the way, and many of the authorities of mission schools do not like the 
 idea of fourth class undenominational public schools, because they think that the miss 
 sion schools will then simply be composed of coloured children, and they will be 
 obliged to trust entirely to the school pence derived from the pupils, as all the better 
 class children would be taken away. I am afraid tliey take a financial view of it. 
 
 1466. Dean Ho/ma.] Would you see any objection to a rate being imposed to 
 meet any deficiency 'r — I do not think so. I think something more should be done for 
 mission schools generally. 
 
 1467. Mr. Roiatn.] You said you had an attendance of 120 boys in your school ; 
 how many of them are boarders ■'—Seventeen. 
 
 146><. So that the other pupils are from the town and suburbs ?— Yes. 
 
 1469. Suppose the Government were to take your school and aid it as a voluntary 
 school, wouli you have a committee of gentlemen to supervise it? — Certainly. 
 
 1470. How would 3'ou have this committee appointed — by the parents? — Yes; 
 I)artly by the parents and partly by the Government. They should watch the interests 
 of the school.
 
 109 
 
 1471. President. '\ Would you propose to have your school inspected ? — Yes ; that **'• 
 would follow as a natural consequence. I have invited the Inspectors to come ^' ^' ^°"*"'"'- 
 in over and over again. Sir Langham Dale has been a frequent visitor at the school F»b. 2ith, 1891. 
 for many years, and also an examiner ; in fact, he was one of the first to establish it. 
 
 The school was opened with only five boys. 
 
 1472. Bev. lloorrepv.] How is it, in your opinion, that Cape Town has gone in to 
 such a small extent for the public school system ? — That is rather a delicate question 
 for a private teacher to answer. 
 
 1473. Is not one reason because such good pro\ision is made by private schools ? 
 — I may say this, that the provision I am making is quite as good as the provision 
 made in any of the public schools here. 
 
 1474. Her. Coetzee.'] Are you acquainted with the requirements of the rural 
 population at all ? — I have not taught anywhere except in Cape Town. 
 
 1475. What time is devoted in your school to the teaching of Dutch ? — Dutch is 
 taught in the morning on Mondays and Thursdays from 11 to \ to 12, and on Tues- 
 days, Fridays, and Wednesdays from 1 to i to 2. 
 
 1476. Mr. Koivan.'] How many hours a week altogether ? — 3j hours. 
 
 1477. Do all the pupils attend the Dutch class ? — No. Out of 100 boys, about 
 30 or 35 attend. 
 
 1478. Is it an extra ? — No ; nothing is charged. 
 
 1479. President.'] Have you any Dutch boys who do not attend the Dutch class ? 
 — Yes ; a few. There are two or three whose parents do not wish them to learn, 
 simply because they think they know enough already. 
 
 1480. Rev. Coetzee.'] Do your pupils come from Cape Town ? — The majority do. 
 
 1481. Have you any pupils from up-country districts ? — The boarders come from 
 all parts ; the Transvaal and Natal. 
 
 1482. President.] Do you think that Dutch should be introduced into the 
 Elementary examination as one of the subjects i' — If I had my own way, I would get 
 rid of the Elementary examination altogether, and have the School Higher examina- 
 tion. Then there might be better scope for introducing Dutch. I think the Ele- 
 mentary examination has done exceedingly good work ; but now we have arrived at 
 the time when it would be very much better for education, generally speaking, if bovs 
 were left till they passed the School Higher examination. The tendency now is to 
 remove boys when they have passed the Elementary examination. 
 
 1483. In the School Higher examination you would have Dutch ? — Yes. 
 
 1484. Is it in your opinion desirable to have two papers, one in Dutch and one in 
 English, and give boys the option of choosing ? — I hardly think that would be desir- 
 able. A boy might be able to pass in English, and he might pass in Dutch, or he 
 might pass in Dutch and not in English. 
 
 1485. Do you think all the boys would choose English ? — Certainly for the next 
 two or three years — all those taught in town, at all events. 
 
 1486. It has been suggested that the outlines of history might be taught in 
 English, but the history of the Cape Colony in Dutch ; do you approve of that !' — If 
 it were a Dutch school pure and simple it might answer, but I would not advise it here. 
 
 1487. Rev. Moorrees,] If you had a school where all, or almost all, the pupils 
 understood Dutch, would there be any danger in teaching Colonial history through the 
 medium of the Dutch language ? — No danger at all. I am speaking of pupils who 
 have been brought up in town schools, and who have not the slightest idea of the 
 Dutch language, it being forced upon them. They would not be able to do justice to 
 the paper. 
 
 1488. Rei\ Coetzee.] If Dutch boys had the same advantages in learning Dutch 
 as they have at present for English, would there be any objection to having Dutch in 
 the Elementary examination ? — Decidedly not. 
 
 1489. President.] Are Dutch boys at a disadvantage now ? — They would be at a 
 disadvantage in both cases, simply because they do not know their own language, 
 which is Dutih, sulttciently well, and they know very little of English. 
 
 1490. Are they now at a disadvantage in the school!' — When they arrive first, we 
 find they ai-e very backward, and we are obliged to put them in the lowest standard 
 and train them very carefully. 
 
 1491. Are not some of the English boys very backward? — Yes ; but the language 
 is more familiar to them. I have a lad from the districi of Hay ; he ha" spoken 
 nothing but Dutch, and that badly. When the Dutch master spoke to him, he thought 
 he was using a foreign language. 
 
 1492. Is it as easy to learn English as proper Dutch ? — Yes. 
 
 1493. Is not that attiibutable to the accent 'i—li is simply a matter of fact. 
 
 p 2
 
 no 
 
 ^- Mr. P. J. Sliiiant examined. 
 
 r. J. sfif„„t, 
 
 1494. Presidftif]. You reside in Cape Town, and were formerly a member of 
 
 Feb. 21th, 18H1. ^}jq Hou^e of Assembly, I believe ? — I was member for Cape Town for about. 20 years. 
 I am not a member of Parliament now. 
 
 1495. Are you also a member of the Divisional Council and the Town Coimcil? 
 Yes. 
 
 1496. How long have you been so ? — I have been 25' years in the one and 30 
 years in the other. 
 
 1497. You know the present system of guarantors in connection with under- 
 denominational schools, I suppose r' — Yes. 
 
 149S. Do you think it a good one ? — I do not think it good. 
 
 1499. Why not ? — Because the burden is made to fall on a few in the division, 
 who feel interested in getting up an undenominational school, general speaking in 
 connection with their own religious denomination. 1 have never found that these 
 guarantors have come forward upon a broad cosmopolitan principle to aid the whole 
 community. It is to aid themselves and to aid the denomination to which they 
 belong. 
 
 1500. What would you suggest as a remedy for this? — Perhaps I hold strong 
 ^^ews on the subject of the education. I consider it to be the paramoimt duty of the 
 State to come forward in order to encotirage education, and I liave advocated for 
 more than 20 years, from public platforms and elsewhere, that in villages and towns 
 where you have representative bodies or corporations, there should be compulsory 
 education. 
 
 1501. And do you think those bodies should contribute what is now contributed 
 by tbe guarantors? — No ; I have said from the first that I thought it was the para- 
 mount duty of the State to encourage education for all classes. At the same time we 
 know very well that there are persons occupying a certain position in society who 
 probably would not send their children to these schools. 
 
 1502. Who is to pay for those ? — It would come out of the general revenue. 
 
 1503. If the Government contributes half, and the fees are added, would it not 
 be fair when there is a deficiency, to come upon the local rates ? — I think not. In the 
 first place, as regards local rates, you will find that every corporation according to its 
 charter, and under the General Municipal Act, has no power whatever to levy rates 
 for such a purpose, though of course legislation could step in. 
 
 1504. Would it not be wise if the Legislature did make it a charge against the 
 local rates? — I think not. 
 
 1505. ^Vhy ? — I need hardly tell you how adverse the people of this Colony are 
 to direct taxation. Sujipose you give power to levy a rate, and make it compulsory 
 upon local bodies, it would come out of the pockets of the landlords directly, and the 
 tenants would pay indirectly. It is the same with the customs duty ; those who con- 
 sume dutiable goods have to pay the duty indirectly ; but I say that we are not ripe 
 for imposing a local tax upon the people for the purpose of education. 
 
 1506. Then where should the money come from, do 5'ou think, if there is a 
 deficiency? — Out of the general current revenue, which is contributed to by every 
 individual, according to the quantity of goods he consumes. 
 
 1507. In whose hands would you place the management of these schools; if it 
 was vested in the general government, local bodies could not have any control, could 
 they ? — I would not allow them to have any management. 
 
 1508. In whom would you have the management vested ? — If the Government 
 paid the whole amount that was required, there would be local Justices of the Peace, 
 and the Government should have the power of appointing a Board. Then there is the 
 Education Department ; it could be done tlu-ough the Superintendent-General of 
 Education. 
 
 1509. That would be reverting to the old Herschel system which proved such a 
 failure, would it not ? — The circumstances of the Colony are very much changed now. 
 
 1510. Do not you think that if the management were placed in the hands of the 
 electors, and they had the control of the schools, under the supervision of the Govern- 
 ment, they would take an interest in the schools, in seeing that they were both worked 
 efiiciently and economically. Under such circumstances the ratepayers might be 
 willing to pay any small deficiency that might arise ? — Wliat I fear is this : Members 
 of Municipalities and Divisional Councils are elected by the ratepayers, and these 
 gentlemen as a rule have never given any attention whatever to educational matters, 
 and the ratepayers would be up in arms if they attempted to impose an additional rate, 
 even if it was only the sixteenth of a penny in the £, upon the rateable value of pro- 
 perty. Hence education might .suffer in the desire for economy. 
 
 1511. If the Government contributed half, and the fees were regulated, and only 
 in the case of a deficiency after that, there was to be a charge against the rates, do not
 
 Ill 
 
 you think if the ratepayers had the appointment of managers, they would be willing Mr. 
 
 to bear the burden, and also be competent to choose proper men. The ratepayers ^'' ^' ^''f"'' 
 might not be eligible men for members of Parliament, but they might be quite com- Feb. 24th, 189 
 petent to elect good Members of Parliament, and the same men who would not be 
 suitable men for an Educational Board might be competent to elect proper men to 
 manage the schools, might they not ? — I think the ratepayers are sufficiently qualified 
 for that purpose, but from my experience of this country there is too much apathy and 
 indifference upon the part of the people upon any question, no matter what it is, to 
 come forward voluntarily ; they have to be whipped up, so to speak. For my own 
 part, I do not think it is desirable to bui'den the local rates with any tax for education, 
 under the circumstances of this country. Most of our revenue is raised by indirect 
 taxation, and here you would be departing from that principle, and putting a direct 
 tax on the landlord for education. 
 
 1512. Would you be in favour of making it permissive for municipalities to come 
 in and take tie position of the guarantors ? — I am not an advocate for permissive 
 legislation, but if you legislate in that direction I think it would be leading up to it. 
 Those corporations that feel the advantage of having such schools would guarantee. 
 
 1513. And you would allow them to do so Y — Yes. 
 
 1514. In whom would you vest the property of these schools? — You must vest it 
 in trustees. 
 
 1515. Who woidd you appoint as trustees ? — If the local bodies have contributed, 
 I would appoint the chairman or mayor for the time being. It is far better, when a 
 contribution is made by a local body, that the trustee shouU be the permanent head 
 for the time being of that body. 
 
 1516. Dean Molnien.'] Woiild you make them c.c-q(ficio managers as well as 
 trustees ? — I think the management of these schools is far better left in the hands of 
 the Education Department. 
 
 1517. President.^ How is it that the undenominational school system in Cape 
 Town has not worked more efficiently. The mission schools seem virtually to have 
 done all the educational work for the poor ? — It arises I think, simply from class 
 differences. Mr. Whitton's Normal CoUege and Mr. Dalton I'ouallier's private bchool 
 are both excellent institutions, and both those gentlemen have done a great deal for the 
 cause of education in (Jape Town. 
 
 1518. Dr. Berrtj.'] Would you be surprised to learn that a leading member of 
 the Mahommedan community told the Commission that he did not think that the 
 Malays would have any objection to a school rate in Cape Town ':• — If you allude to 
 Abdol Bums, he is no authority at all ; he is not acknowledged by the Mahommedan 
 community, although he sets himself up as a king among them. They are very 
 divided in their sects, and since the Hindoo Mussulmen have come here and people 
 from Mecca, they are more mixed np than ever. They are, in fact, all isolated bodies. 
 
 1519. Abdol Burns told us that the present rates pressed heavily upon the people, 
 but he so felt the value of education personally, that he did not think there would be 
 any difficulty in his people agreeing to an additional rate for school purposes ; do you 
 think we should receive that opinion, or can you tell us of any representative men 
 among the Mahommedans '( — Abdol Bums is a most intelligent man, but he does not 
 represent them. There is a Mahommidau named Iniaum 'J aUeb and another Marah 
 Soeker. They both live in Cape Town, and the latter is a very large ratepayer. 
 
 1520. I met someone this morning who told me that the school fees he paid came 
 to nearly £50 a-year, and he could not come out with less, whereas if he had con- 
 tributed a httle to the local rates and so assisted in getting a good undenominational 
 school set up in Cape Town, he would have got education much cheaper. What he 
 saved in fees would, so to speak, more than pay the local rate levied on him Y — I have 
 no doubt of it ; but I doubt whether he would send his children to such undenomina- 
 tional school. I know sf)iueone who came out from Ireland with an Orange charter in 
 his pocket, a staunch Presbyterian, and he held that in abeyance, and sent his 
 children to be educated at the Convent school, because it was the cheapest, and the 
 class of education given there was superior.
 
 112 
 
 Cape Toicn, Friday, Fcbruanj 21th, 1891. 
 
 Sir J. I). Barry (President), 
 T. P. Theron, Esq. Ilev. Coetzee. 
 
 Deau Holmes. Dr. Berry. 
 
 Rev. Moorrees. A. N. Rowan, Esq. 
 
 Dr. J. W. G. van Oordt examined. 
 Dr. 1521. Prraidcnt. | You reside in Cape Town and are editor of the " Zuid Afrikaan " 
 
 •^ 'o rf' "'" newsjfaper, I believe ? — Yes. 
 
 "^ 1522. Are you at all engaged in educational work at present? — Only as a member 
 
 Feb. 27th, 1891. of the University Council, and as an examiner. 
 
 1523. When were you ap])oin1ed examiner ? — I think about the year 1881 I was 
 examiner for the first time, and in 1SS4 I was made a member of the University Council. 
 
 1524. How long have you been in the Colony ? — Since 1876, but I was formerly 
 here from 1853 to 1862, and then I was engaged in educational work. 
 
 1525. Were you actively engaged in educational work from 1853 to 1862 ? — Yes, 
 I was assistant to Dr. Changuion. 
 
 1526. As a teacher in Dutcli ? — No ; I have never taught Dutch ; principally 
 classics. 
 
 1527. Are you pretty well acquainted with the educational wants of the Colony ? 
 — Yes ; but I never taught pupils under 12 or 13. 
 
 1528. Do you know anything about irregularity of attendance ; in Cape Town 
 the attendance is found to be 75 per cent, of those on the books, and it is also found 
 that a number of children ouglit to go to school, but do not do so ; do you think it 
 desirable that something should bo done to ameliorate this condition of things ? — I 
 believe Sir Langham Dale wanted to have a truancy officer, and I think it might be tried. 
 
 1529. Under what conditions Y — I should not be in favour of compulsory educa- 
 tion, but in the case of those children who are known to go to school but are found 
 loafing about the streets, something in the way of compulsion might be tried. 
 
 1530. Do 3'ou know anything about the working of Boards of Management? — 
 Something. I know for instance how they work in Holland. 
 
 1531. Are you in favour of the present Boards of Management remaining as they 
 are ? — Yes ; except in one respect. I do not think it fair that they shoidd have to 
 make up deficiencies in the school income. 
 
 1532. What would you substitute for the present guarantee system Y — I think 
 that Divisional Councils and Municipalities should pay any deficiency. 
 
 1533. How do you think these Boarils should be elected in the future? — They 
 might be elected as they are now, and you might have one or two members added from 
 other bodies. 
 
 1534. Do you think the ratepayers would submit to such a measure? — I do not 
 think the ratepayers should be considered in the matter. If there was a law, they 
 would have to obey it. 
 
 1535. What are the present facilities that you are aware of for giving instruction 
 in the English and Dutch languages in schools ? — At present, in most schools, Dutch 
 is taught I think, and on the whole, it is not taught badly. I was once examiner in 
 Dutch here for the Matriculation examination, and on the whole I thought the papers 
 satisfactory. A good many really knew the language well, others knew it as it is 
 spoken here, and could write a letter in Dutch, so that I do not think the teaching is 
 defective. Of course there are exceptions, but it is a great drawback that in the 
 Elementary examination of the Uuniversity there is no Dutch. As you are aware, 
 for that examination, candidates have to satisfy the examiners of their proficiency in 
 the English language, including writing passages from dictation, parsing of words, 
 etymology, analysis of sentences, and English composition. Of course candidates 
 would chiefly apply themselves to thoise branches, so it is quite natural that Dutch 
 shoidd be neglected. Pupils study those subjects for which they have to imdergo 
 examination. 
 
 1536. What would you propose ? — I would propose to have Dutch added as an 
 optional subject, in exactly the same way as it is with Greek, for Matriculation exami- 
 nation. You need not take Greek, but those who do take it get marks of course. 
 
 1537. Is there any substitute for Greek ? — Not at present, there was one year, but 
 it was considered to work so bad that it was abolished the next. 
 
 1538. What was the alternative ? — Dynamics. 
 
 1539. If you jmt in Dutcii, would you not have an alternative ? — No, I do not 
 think 80. The only way would be to have another language, such as French or
 
 113 
 
 German ; but Dutch is one of the languages of tlio country, like English is, while ^■ 
 
 French and German are altogether foreign languages. "'■ ^q'^ji *"" 
 
 1540. Might not English, Dutch, German, and Kafir all, to a certain extent, be 
 
 considered languages of the country? — As regards Kafir, it is only useful for F<^t- 27th, 1891. 
 missionaries, or in a particular branch of the Civil Service. Kafir is not a language of 
 literature as Dutch is. It is a barbarous language altogether. 
 
 lo41. Then you would add Dutch, French, or German as additional subjects in 
 the Elementary examination ? — I would rather have Dutch alone, in the .same way as 
 Greek in the Matriculation examination. 
 
 1542. The boy who takes up Dutch would be at an advantage, would he not? — 
 Certainly, the same as a boy who takes up Greek. 
 
 1543. It has been said that the present number of subjects is quite enough for the 
 Elementary examination ; if you increase the number, would not the education be less 
 efficient ? — That might be true if you took a foreign language, but Dutch is not a 
 foreign language for the majority of the people — even English children who are not 
 brought up in English towns, know a good deal of Dutch. I remember Professor 
 Mansvelt telling me that his colleague Mr MeDonald never had Dutch spoken at 
 home, but his son spoke very good Dutch. 
 
 ] 544. That would be high Dutch, would it not ? — No, Dutch as it is spoken here. 
 
 1545. In the Elementary examination would 3'ou have high Dutch ? — Yes, but I 
 would not be too strict. There are certain parts of high Dutch which are different from 
 Cape Dutch, but they are easily learned. It is usual, for instance, for peojde here to 
 say " geeet " for " gegeten," " gekijk " for " gekeken," as part participles of " eten," 
 " kijken," &c, but they can easily learn the proper forms, and even in Holland it is not 
 uncommon to hear " georven " for " geerfd," from " erven." It is however exceedingly 
 difficult for Cape people to master the genders. The neuter of the article is " het," 
 and no child in Holland will ever take a neuter noun for a masculine or feminine one 
 or vice versa, but at the Cape " die " is used for all genders. In such matters you 
 should not be to strict. When I got my papers I marked them for such faults about 
 one-fourth of the really bad faults in Dutch. 
 
 1546. What marks are given in the English paper for the Elementary examina- 
 tion ? — 300 for each subject. 
 
 1547. Woi 1 1 you give the Dutch language 300 ? — I moved about the matter in 
 the Committee < f Studies of the University Council, and wanted candidates to get the 
 same proportion of marks as they gave for Dutch in the Matriculation examination ; 
 that was formerly 300 for English and 150 for Dutch. They have since made it 200 
 for Dutch, and 1 wauted to have the same, because some boys will learn Dutch more 
 easily. Greek in the Matriculation examination is the same as Latin, so if they do 
 not take that, they may have 300 marks less. 
 
 1548. Then you would have Dutch as a fifth subject in the Elementary examina- 
 tions, with 200 marks, German or French having the same number ? — I look upon 
 German and French as foreign languages. 
 
 1519. But French and German may be very useful to a boy in after life; may 
 they not ? He may not live here all his life ; but even here a knowledge of those 
 languages is a benefit ? — Yes ; a great benefit. 
 
 i.".50. No one knows that better than the Hollanders; they speak French very 
 well, do they not ?— Yes ; in Holland French is taught at a very early age. When 
 boys go to tue Gymnasium, which is about the same as the College, they must know, 
 not only French, but also English and German. 
 
 1551. Is there anything else which you can suggest in cmnection with the ques- 
 tion of language? — I think it would be a good thing if, except in those schools where 
 English alone is taught, part of the subjects were taught through the medium of the 
 Dutch language, say history or geography. The pupils would then come to under- 
 stand that Dutch is not, as many people think here, the language of the kitchen, but a 
 language for educating the people. 
 
 1552. If you did that in the schools at GrahamV Town or Port Elizabeth, would 
 the boys go in for the Elementary examination ?— All these tilings are dependent upon 
 the committees of manao'emenr. 
 
 1553. Would it not interfere with the number of candidates for the Elementary 
 examination; and the object is to induce as many as possible to go in for it, is it not ?— 
 I do not say that they should be taught in Dutch, but simply that they might be taught. 
 
 1554. 'Would you have two papers in Dutch for the Elementary examination ?— 
 For history I would have a paper in English, but exactly the same paper translated 
 into Dutch ; then the candidate might choose. . • u i 
 
 1555. Do vou think you would be able to find examiners able to examine in both 
 languages ?— Yes ; plenty. This question was asked at the Committee of Studies, and 
 Mr. Brady, at that time acting Eegistrar of the Cape University, said there was not
 
 Dr. the slightest difficulty in getting good men to examine in botli languages. Of course 
 
 •'• ^^,.j: ''"" you might not have a sufruueut number of efficient examiners in daisies and raathe- 
 
 ' matios lor the Matriculation and lliglier examinations, who could examine equally well 
 
 Feb. 27th, isyi. in both languages, but fur tlie Lower exaniiuatious you would find plenty of teachers 
 and profossor.s acquaiid«d witli Dutch and English. 
 
 l-05(;. Although tins change may be desirable, would it not be better to leave it to 
 the Council of Education rather than have legislative interference;' — The University 
 Council is not responsible to anybody here. The subjects of examination are put 
 down by a body not altogether competent to deal with the matter. 
 
 1557. llow would you connect the mode of electing |the University Council ? — I 
 would not alter the mode of election. I think the University Council has done good, 
 but the time has arrived for having a Teaching University, where the professors should 
 at the same time be examiners for the whole of the Colony for the higher branches. 
 
 155S. And they should make out the subjects for examination, you think? — Yes. 
 Then you would get what is now felt to be greatly wanted, something like a regular 
 system. At present there is no system whatever in the examinations. You have one 
 examiner from Oxford, another from Cambridge, another from Holland, and another 
 again from London, and all of tliem hold different views as to setting the papers ; and 
 then the teachers have no communication with the examiners. That is, in my opinion, 
 a great evil, for even teachers do not always understand the meaning of a particular 
 question, and should, in this case, ask the examiner for information. The teachers 
 and professors seem to act quite apart, and never communicate with one another. 
 When I was examiner, a few months ago, there were two boys I was acquainted with 
 who went up for the Matriculation examination. In the Greek paper I had given some 
 words to decline, and wanted the candidates to put on the accents, but after the exami- 
 nation they told me they had never learned the accents. It seems that some teachers 
 teach the accents from the beginning, while others leave it until the pupils have learned 
 Greek for two or three years. Such a want of uniformity is ;i monstrous thing. 
 
 1559. You think the accents ought to be more the subject of examination ? — It is 
 generally admitted among Greek scholars that the accents ought to be taught at once. 
 
 1560. But apparently there are other Greek scholars who tliink otherwise, except 
 till a certain age is reached ? — No ; but yoTi have many teachers of Greek who are not 
 Greek scholars. 
 
 1561. Rer. Moonres.'] Are you at all acquainted with the educational wants of the 
 agricultural population ? — To some e.xtent, but very little. I have been mostly 
 in town. 
 
 1562. L)o you think there is a desire for Dutch instruction in the Colony ? — As 
 far as I can see, I certainly think there is. I get a great many Dutch letters, 
 and it is evident that it woidd have been all the better for those who write them if 
 they had learned Dutch properly. 
 
 1563. In Ilolland very often two or three languages are learned by the pupils ; 
 do you think that that does any harm to the thoroughness of their education ? — I 
 hardly think so. There is, of course, a difference of opinion about the matter. I 
 learned French when eleven years of age, and we were even made to learn English 
 through the medium of French, and there was no difficulty. 
 
 1564. Do you think that the fact of knowing one language facilitates acquiring 
 another language ? — Yes ; especially when the languages are more or less of the 
 same kind. 
 
 1.065. A boy, for instance, knowing Dutch; would that facilitate his learning 
 English ? — I think, on the whole, it would. 
 
 1566. Which do j'ou think would be the best course to pursue with beginners, 
 to teach them through the mediimi of a foreign language or their own language ? — 
 Through their own language. 
 
 1567. And then gradually introduce the foreign language ? — Yes. 
 
 1568. Do you know anything about the Normal College ? — Something. 
 
 1569. Do you know whether the teachers educated there are as well up in Dutch 
 as in English ? — I cannot say that I have heard complaints about their not being well 
 up in Dutch. I know, however, that the teaching of Dutch at the Normal College is 
 not had at all. Mr. Viljoen, for instance, is a very excellent teacher, and the pupils 
 under him passed high in their examinations. 
 
 1570. As long as he was there ? — Yes ; but he will come back. 
 
 1571. Do you know whether the principal of the Normal College is an authority 
 on Dutch ? — No, of course not. I remember that iu 1886, the principal, Mr. AVhitton, 
 was at a meeting of the Synod of the Dutch Reformed Church, and the Moderator 
 addressed him in Dutch. He understood what was said, and wanted to reply, but he 
 could not manage it in Dutch, and had to fall back on English ; so that is not a sign 
 that he is a very excellent Dutch scholar.
 
 115 
 
 1572. If a Dutch paper were added to the Elementary examination, those candi- !>• 
 
 dates taking Dutch would have one subject more to prepare, would they not ? — Yes. ^' ^' ? """ 
 
 _ 1573. Would it he fair not to give them additional marks for an additional — — * 
 
 subject ? — It would be most decidedly unfair, when they know two languages not to r8b.'27tb, 1891. 
 give them more marks than only for one. 
 
 1574. Mr. Hoiran.'] Suppose there are five subjects in the Elementary examination, 
 and an additional subject, such as Dutch is brought in ; if a boy takes Dutch, is he to 
 count in the marks above all the others who do not take Dutch ? — Yes. 
 
 1575. That is quite clear? — Yes. That is my opinion. 
 
 1576. But should there not be an alternative subject, so that a candidate not taking 
 Dutch, may be able to make up his marks ? — I think the position of Dutch in tliis 
 country is of such a nature, that there should be no alternative subject. 
 
 1577. Indirectly it would be making Dutch compulsory, would it not ? — There are 
 generally about 200 students going up for the Matriculation examination, and there are 
 always something like between 15 and 20 who do not take Greek, and they would be 
 in the same position. 
 
 1578. You have been a long time in the Colony, and have been a teacher in Dr. 
 Changuion's school, and also an examiner, do you find that more attention is paid to 
 Dutch now than was the case formerly, or less, on the whole ? — On the whole, I should 
 say rather more. 
 
 1579. Rev. Coffzee.'] Does the study of the Dutch language receive at present 
 sufBcient attention and encouragement, in your opinion ? — No. I do not think so. I 
 do not see how it can be an encouragement when the Elementary examination is of such 
 a nature that it is the interest of boys when they go up for it, to neglect Dutch. 
 
 1580. Dr. Berry.'] I suppose this proposal to add Dutch as an optional subject in 
 the Elementary examination would be made in the interests of boys whose mother 
 tongue is Dutch, would it not? — Not altogether ; because I think that those boys to 
 whom it is not their mother tongue, will always profit a good deal in this Colony bv 
 knowing Dutch. They often have to have intercourse with Dutchmen, and although 
 they may pick up a little kitchen Dutch, as it is called, so as to be able to speak to farmers, 
 it is much better to have a ])roper idea of the language, and be able to read a Dutcli 
 book, as most Dutchmen generally like to be able to read English books. 
 
 1581. Would not the general effect be this, that all boys and girls going up for 
 the Elementary examination would struggle to get some knowledge of Dutch ? — I 
 think so. At all events I hope so. 
 
 1582. Do you think that would be a good thing in the interests of education itself? 
 — Yes, certainly. 
 
 1583. Do you know that out of the whole number of children attending the public 
 schools, about 40,000 or 50,000, only four per cent, stay long enough at school to reach 
 Standard 4 ?— Yes. 
 
 1584. Is it possible to give boys or girls any knowledge either of English or Dutch 
 during that short time, that is likely to be of any use to them as a means of culture ? — 
 I must say that I am not quite sure how far they come with Standard 4, but I (hink 
 Standard 4 is lower than the Elementary examination. I would say, if pupils are not 
 going on in their studies, let them learn their own language, and so much of the other 
 as they can. 
 
 1585. Do not you think the exclusion of a German paper in the Elementary 
 examination would put a German boy at a disadvantage ? — No. You cannot put 
 German on a par with Dutch in this country. You might just as well say tliat because 
 Italians come here, there ought to be an examination in Italian. 
 
 1586. Kafirs are born in the country, so should not their language receive the 
 same consideration as Dutch in the examination ? It is argued that it is an unfair 
 thing to a boy whose mother tongue is Dutch, to have Dutch excluded from the 
 Elementary examination ; may we not say that it is equally unfair to exclude from The 
 Elementary examination the language of another boy, which is Kafir, and wliieh will 
 not under present circumstances count ? — If the Kafirs were Colonists, I would say yes; 
 but they are not, they are natives, and they have come under the benelicent rule of the 
 Europeans. 
 
 1587. Do you not think that a Kafir might with equal fairness plead for his 
 language to be considered ? — Plead he may ; the question is, whether his plea will be 
 accepted. 
 
 1588. You are not prepared to give way ? — Certainly not. 
 
 1589. Have j'ou any idea of the average rate of fees in the schools in Cape Town 
 not aided by Government grants, voluntary or private adventure schools as tliey are 
 sometimes called ; would you consider them high ? — I know that the fees at the 
 Convent schools are much lower than other schools, but the fees at the Gi'od Hope 
 
 [G. 9— '91. J U
 
 116 
 
 P'- Seminary are simply exorbitant. The fees at the South Afriuau College are also very 
 
 Oordi. ""' ^^S^- 1 think for the B.A. you jmy £28 a year, for the same teaching as you would 
 
 ' got at the college at the llague in lloUaml where 1 was, for a little over £H. 
 
 Tek. 27th, l»9l. 1590. But everything is Joarer iiere than in Europe, an.X so education would be 
 
 dearer too, would it not Y — I do not think that the cost of living here is suthoiout to 
 account for so large a discrepanev as I have just mentioned. 
 
 1591. It lias been said that owing to the high jirieo of education in the higher 
 schools, the voluntary schools, very many of the white children flock to the mission 
 schools, is that so ? — Yes ; I think it is the case. That is the reason why Sir Langham 
 Dale wanted the fourtii class undenominational public scliools. 
 
 1592. Would you be in favour of establisliing the fourth class schools in Cape 
 Town ? — Yes. I think they should be separate schools, about the same as mission 
 schools, where the white children could go without coming into contact with the black 
 children. I frequently hear complaints about white children going to the same school 
 as black children, and after all, it will not do. 
 
 15!).i. You, think, therefore, for that reason a new set of schools is required in this 
 city ? — I have not much experience in the matter, but I know Sir Langham Dale is in 
 favour of it, and several of the clergymen here also, but they would like the fourth 
 class schools to form part of the system, and not be like mission schools, under 
 voluntary bodies such as churclies. 
 
 1594. You mean part of the undenominational public school system ? — Y'^es. 
 
 1595. You are of opinion that what are called mission schools should be reserved 
 for the coloured classes ? — Yes. 
 
 1596. Mr. Theron.'\ It was said just now that Only four per cent, of the children 
 attending our schools reach Standard 4 ; have you any idea of the number of children 
 attending the mission schools, farm schools, circuit schools, and district hoarding 
 schools ? — No ; I cannot say. 
 
 1597. Although four per cent, may seem a very small proportion, there are many, 
 many disadvantages in this Colony which do not permit of pupils reaching a higlier 
 standard than No. 4 ; is not that your opinion ? — I almost think that Standard 4 is 
 quite enough for a good many people, as, for instance, farmers' sons who have their 
 ordinary every day work to do ; if they can read their Bible and are able to write a 
 decent letter, they hardly require much more. Even although a boy or girl may have 
 gone up for the Elementary examination and been plucked, I would not say they were 
 by any means uneducated ; they can get on very well afterwards, and do well in life if 
 they persevere. 
 
 1598. As to the Dutch language, as long as no provision is made in the Elemen- 
 tary examination for it, do you think it likely that Dutch will make any progress in 
 the country ? — I hardly think so. 
 
 1599. In the case of a teacher taking a country child, what is the mark which he 
 aims at to give a proof to the parents as well as to the child itself that it has done some- 
 thing in the way of education ":' — Partly, I think, the report of the inspector, and 
 mostly the examination. A good many think that when they have passed the 
 Elementary examination, then tliey can set up as teachers in their own way. 
 
 1600. When you have only a limited time to prcjiare a cliild for the Elementary 
 examination, do you think that a teacher would take up Dutcli instead of English as 
 long as the exaniination remains exclusively in English Y — No, certainly not. 1 
 remember when the first preliminary meeting of the " Taal " Bond took place, there 
 was a teacher, a Capo man, named Immclman, from Malmesbury, who said he was 
 very much handicapped in regard to Dutch, because nobody took an interest in it, not 
 even the inspectors, and when the pupils knew that they could take the Elementary 
 examination without Dutch, they did not care for Dutch. I have heard exactly the 
 same complaint from Professor Mansvelt, that because Dutch in the Matriculation 
 examination got only 150 marks, candidates did not care so much for Dutch as they 
 did in the B.A. examination, where at one time they got 300 marks, but it was 
 ■xfterwards cut down to 200 for ceitain reasons. 
 
 1601. Then Dutch parents, so to speak, employ teachers, having a desire to see 
 heir pupils pass the Elementary Examination, who simply destroy in the bud any 
 ^sire there may be to learn the Dutch language ? — I think so. 
 
 1602. Dea>i Ifolmca.'] Should you advocate compulsory education Y — Certainly not. 
 
 Mr. E. Powell examined. 
 
 Mr. 1603. President.'] What is your profession ? —I am editor of the Cape Argm vad 
 
 £. I'uueii. resident director of the "Argus" company in Cape Town, 
 b. 27th, 1891.
 
 117 
 
 1604. Have you any acquaintance with educatiou.-il mutters ? — With the leave of ^• 
 the Commission I should like to speak as to our own practical needs as employers of ' "^' 
 labour as they are affected by the education questiou. Feb. 27th, 1891. 
 
 1605. In what way are you affected ? — Speaking more particularly of boys, we 
 have two classes of boys in our establishment — one. what I may call a superior class, 
 both coloured and white, who become apprentices in the working department, and with 
 them I might include the juniors in the counting-hcuse ; and then we have a lower 
 class who are employed selling newspapers in the street, rough little fellows. As to the 
 first-named class, our foremen have told me tliat instead of at once proceeding to teach 
 these boys their trade, printing or bookbinding, they have to spend a great deal of time 
 during the first year or two of tlie apprenticeship in what is really elementary instruc- 
 tion, things they should have learned at school, spelling, figures, and matters of that 
 kind. The boys are not so sharp as we should like them to be as a rule, and not so 
 sharp as boys of a corresponding class in England. Then as to the other class, I am 
 convinced myself that they would be all the better fitted for their occupation of selling 
 newspapers if they bad a very moderate amount of education. 
 
 1606. Have they none now ? — Practically they have none. When they have to 
 call out any particular news, for instance, they are ignorant of the pronunciation of 
 words ; it is so much Greek to them. One day I asked them to call out " Sir Gordon 
 Sprigg's Budget Speech," but they coidd not pronounce the words. If they had a little 
 education it would be a very great advantage. We have another paper called the Star, 
 published at Johannesburg. I cannot say precisely where the boys come from, but I 
 think they are poor white boys from Natal, and they have some amount of education. 
 Those boys are fully alive to everything, and look out for the chief items of news so as 
 to call them out. 
 
 1607. You think they have been educated in Natal ? — Some of them may be Cape 
 boys, but at all events they are better educated than the boys we have down here, and 
 it tells upon our business. 
 
 1608. All this proves that there has been a neglected earlier education, does it 
 not ? — Yes. They do not require very much education, but they should be able to read 
 and write, and have some little knowledge of figures. 
 
 1609. How do you think this defect should be supplied ? — As far as the boys who 
 sell newspapers in the street are concerned, I think the " half time " plan would be the 
 best. There is no reason that 1 know of why they should not go to school in the 
 morning and sell papers in the afternoon. Some people speak of these boys as if they 
 were very much to be pitied, and were so many waifs and strays, but there is no reason 
 why it should be so. Their calling is an honest and reputable one. 
 
 1610. From what time could they be spared ? — As far as our own oflfice is con- 
 cerned, we only want them in the afternoon, about two o'clock. Sometimes they may 
 be wanted in the morning. 
 
 1611. Up to what time would they be wanted by the other paper? — Up to two 
 o'clock in the afternoon perhaps. 
 
 1612. Dr. Berry.'] Would an evening school be of any use to such boys? — I do 
 not think they would attend, they work in the streets up to seven or eight o'clock, and 
 I doubt if the}^ would be in a condition to go to school then. 
 
 1613. Mr. Rowan.'] IIow would you arrange for half-time where boys are engaged 
 in the moraings and afternoons. I know there are mission schools in the town that 
 receive half ■ timers, but if these boys are emplo^'ed in the morning, di.stributing the 
 Times, and the Argus in the afternoon, what time would be best for them to 
 attend school ?— I should leave that to those who are engaged in the practical work of 
 education. 
 
 1614. Are the boys engaged in distributing the Argus the same as are engaged 
 in distributing the Times, as far as you know y — I think they are to some extent. The 
 boys get all kinds of papers, but wo keep our staff together as much as we can. I have 
 seen boys in the street with bundles of the Ti»irs and Argun under their arms. 
 
 1615. Rev. Coetzee.] Could not you make it a practice not to employ boys wlio 
 have not some education ? — Our first business is to get our papers sold. It is the 
 business of the State or of the public to see that the boys are educated. All I say is, 
 that I think the boys would answer oTir purpose better if they had a little education, so 
 as to enable them intelligently to understand what they were selling. 
 
 1616. Would not this difficulty be overcome, if you made it a rule not to employ 
 any boys but those able to read and write ?—Tliat is is. self-denying ordinance 
 which you must not ask us for ; we must sell our paper. 
 
 1617. Dr. Berry.] Do you take the boys who offer themselves ? — Yes. The boys 
 employed in selling papers in the street, are from the lowest class generally. If you 
 had couipulsory education, they would have to go to school with others. 
 
 Q 2
 
 118 
 
 Mr. 1618. Dean Holmes.'] Do you approve of compulsory education ? — Decidedly, in 
 
 ^- ^"- municipalities. 
 Feb. 27th, ISM. 1610. Rev. Moorrees.'] Tou say that the boys of the better class who are apprenticed 
 
 in 3'our business, are imperfectly educated ? — Very much so indeed. Their case is a 
 more serious one than that ol the hoys who sell newspapers. 
 
 1620. Do you ascribe that to the inefficiency of the school where they were taught, 
 or to irregularity of attendence .'' — Mainly, I think, to irrcgulai-ity of attendance, and 
 to carelessness on the part of the parents in not sending them to school for a sufficient 
 time. I do not think, moreover, tliat those who are kept at school are so severely 
 trained as they arc in the Board Schools in England, or the National Schools, of which 
 I know most, having been out here some years. 
 
 1621. I suppose there would be great improvement if a more regular attendance 
 could bo ensm-ed ? — Decidedly ; irregularity of attendance is a great trouble in the 
 place. 
 
 1622. Mr. T/ieron.'] What is the age of these better class boys in your establish- 
 ment ? — They are brought to us very young, about thirteen or so. In ray judgment, 
 that is somewhat too early for a boy to be apprenticed, but their parents bring tliem, 
 and we are ready. We say the boy's age is their business. It woidd be better for 
 them if they were kept at school a little longer, and for us too, as we should then have 
 an educated boy to work upon. 
 
 1623. You consider that they have not been properly educated up to the ago of 
 rS Y — Quite so, coupled with having gone very irregularly to school. 
 
 1624. It is not for want of schools, but for want of compelling the bnys to attend 
 school, that they are so indifferently educated ?— In Cape Town there is this difficulty: 
 resjiectable white workmen have complained to mo that they are placed in a very 
 awkward position with regard to getting their children educated. They do not like to 
 send tlium to the mission schools, as they mix with coloured children, and they can- 
 not afford to send them to sucli a place as the Normal College. 
 
 1625. Mr. Eoir/m.'\ Have you seen Sir Langham Dale's scheme for establishing 
 fourth class undenominational public schools ? — Yes, I have seen that suggestion. 
 
 1626. Dean Holmes.] Do you approve of it ? — I scarcely came prepared to give 
 any general opinion as to education. I can only speak from our own special point of 
 view. 
 
 1627. Mr. T/ieron.] What is the age of the boys employed in selling newspapers 
 in the streets ? — They begin very young indeed, some of them apparently not more 
 than six years old. 
 
 16"J8. So that previous to taking to this work, they have no tim6 to attend school, 
 have they f* — No. There are some men who sell newspapers also. 
 
 1629. If there was some sort of compulsory education in municipalities, these boys 
 would be collected in schools and receive some training, would they not ? — I apprehend 
 that the younger boys would not be selling papers at all, except in the evening, or late 
 in the afternoon. The work would get into the hands of bigger boys, the same as in 
 Johannesburg. I do not think very little children are employed there ; they are big, 
 smart, boys. 
 
 1630. So that as far as your knowledge and experience go, it is desirable that some 
 sort of compulsion should be used in getting these j'ounger cliildren educated ? — Yes ; 
 in municipalities, but I would not attemjit too much at first. I would not keep them 
 at school beyond the age of 13 at first, for instance. 
 
 1631. Dr. Berry.] Would you keep them at school until they reached a certain 
 standard ? — They must take their chance. You cannot keep boys of that class always 
 at school. 
 
 1632. Dean Holmes.] Yo\i would al'ow them to be dismissed earlier if they could 
 pass a certain standard, would you not? — I have not thought much about these 
 general questions. 
 
 1633. Dr. Berry.] You imderstand, I sujipose, wliat is meant by Standard -iY — Yes. 
 
 1634. Do you think that boys who have reached Standard 4 would be fit boys to 
 receive as apprentices in your establishment ? — They wouhl be fully qualified. Tliat 
 is, if anything, a higher standard than I was contemplating for tliem. They only 
 require the plainest education. There is one other point I miglit mention, and that is 
 in regard to clerks, reporters, and others on the staff. Up to the present time we have 
 had mainly to import them from England, and we would rather not do that if there 
 were anj' youths educated in this country whom we could get to suit our purpose. It 
 is a great risk to send 6,000 miles for hands, who may not turn out satisfactorily ; but 
 here we find that young fellows, who have passed high in their examinations, when 
 they get behind the counter or desk are ignorant of tlxe simplest things. Some of 
 them, for instance, do not know the difference between Wynberg in the Cape Colony 
 and Winburg in the Orange Free State, or between Ladismith in the Cape Colony
 
 119 
 
 and Ladysmith in Natal, or that there are two Ileideibergs. They have not been , *^- 
 
 severely trained in plain things. I speak of it purely from our o>vn practical point of ■*" ^^"■ 
 
 view, and pass no reflections on the system of education generally. On the jiaper Feb. 27th, 1891. 
 
 itself, for reporting purposes, at the Paarl, Rtellenbosch, or elsewhere, we have always 
 
 wanted one or two Dutch speaking youths, but we have always found a difficulty in 
 
 getting them, even since I have been connected with tlie paper. They prefer to go 
 
 into a lawyer's ofiice, or something of that kind ; thej' do not like to face newspaper 
 
 work. After much difficulty, Mr. De Waal managed to get me a respectable iJutch 
 
 lad, whom I offered to teach shorthand, but he seemed quite indifferent about it. It 
 
 would be a great advantage if Colonial youths would learn shorthand, as their services 
 
 would be much more valuable and they would be able to drive the imported youths 
 
 out of the field. I may say also that we have a good deal of Dutch printing as well 
 
 as Dutch reporting in our place, and translations are frequently wanted, but this work 
 
 has sometimes to be corrected before we can use it. 
 
 1635. President.'\ With regard to shorthand, would you have it part of the 
 school curriculum ? — I think it better that it should be learned after boys have left 
 school, of their own accord. 
 
 1636. Would it be expected to be taught under a system of national education ? — 
 I think it is taught at schools in England. 
 
 1637. Would you make it general as a subject of education ? — I have no recom- 
 mendation as to that. 
 
 1638. As to the hands you import from England, they do not know local 
 geography as well as boys educated here, nor would they know anything about Dutch, 
 woidd they ? — It seems a very marvellous thing, but they soon get to know much more 
 about local geography than boys who have lived here all their lives and should be well 
 up in it. 
 
 1639. That shows that their minds are educated, does it not ? — Yes, they have 
 been trained in a more severe and exact manner. 
 
 1640. Mr. Thcron.~\ From your experience, if you get a Dutch boy, and spe.ak to 
 him about the history and geography of South Africa and the history and geography 
 of Europe, about which of the two would he know the most ? — I have never applied the 
 test. All we want is that clerks should be able to address letters properly, and so on. 
 
 1641. Dr. Bcrrij.~\ If it was necessary to provide additional facilities for educa- 
 tion in Cape Town, do you think the inhabitants would be willing to submit to 
 anything in the shape of a small local rate ? — I think there would be great grumbling. 
 They would say why should we pay for the education of the children of coloured people, 
 and very reasonably so, I think, for as a rule, they are able to pay for themselves. 
 
 1642. If they are not prepared for any tax, would the inhabitants bo prepared 
 to face the result of having insufficient schools ? — I do not think they have considered 
 the matter. 
 
 1643. Is it not well that they should be led to think something about it ? — I have 
 tried to do my best in my capacity as editor, but I am afraid it has not had much effect. 
 I think the coloured classes can very well afford to pay for education ; the parents are 
 idle very often three days a week. 
 
 1644. Presidrnt.'] How ought this disinclination to be rated to be met in your 
 opinion; do you think there should be legislation on the subject. At present the men who 
 start the schools are men interested in education generally, and they become guarantors, 
 and put their hands in their pockets for the benefit of others in many instances, and 
 not themselves ? — It is a broad question as to whether there should be support from the 
 national funds or from the rates. I think there would be great objection to a rate, and 
 the pressure would not be felt so much if the contribution came from State funds. 
 
 1645. But the State already pays half, and it has been found that the Herschel 
 System, whioh was formerly in existence here, broke down because the Government 
 found everything, the result being that people got indifferent ?— I do not myself 
 think that public opinion is sufficiently ripe for the payment of a school rate. I 
 would have the attendance compulsory in Cape Town, but not free education, for as a 
 rule the coloured classes are well able to pay. 
 
 1646. Rrv. Coetzce.'] Have you any personal experience as to the working of the 
 present system of education in the Colony y— No special experience of my own. I 
 have been entirely engaged on the press. 
 
 1647. Rcr. Moorrcc^.'] I understood you to say that you required for your business 
 boys who understood Dutch Y — Yes ; some of them. 
 
 1648. Do you consider it an advantage in this country to know the two 
 languages? — Clearly so. • • r v • 
 
 1649. As far as your experience goes, you think the instruction given in Dutch is 
 not very efficient ?— That is so, speaking from the isolated instances which have come 
 under my notice.
 
 120 
 
 Hev. T. jr. Peiert. Rev. T. H. Pctirs (examined. 
 
 F«b. 27th^ 1R91. I60O. President. 1 I believe 3'ou are warder at the Zonnebloetn institution 't' — \es. 
 
 1651. How long liave yon been so? — Since tlio year 1S74. 
 
 1652. Had you been engaged in educational work iu the Colony before that 
 time? — Yes; in connexion witli mission schools more especially. 
 
 1653. Where there were Native children as well as Europeans ? — Yes. 
 
 1654. Were there more on the books than attended ? — Yes. 
 
 1655. Was the attendance regular or iiregular ? — I suppose j'ou would call it 
 irregular from any ver}' satisfactory point of view ; but as compared with other schools 
 I do not suppose it was. I tliink my school would rather contain the cream of the 
 population. 
 
 1656. What was the irregularity of attendance owing to ? — I suppose the care- 
 lessness of the parents and ignorance of the evils of irregular attendance. There are 
 as many causes here operating to bring it about, as there would be among schools for 
 tlie lower classes in England. Ohildreu have frequently to run errands, or stay at 
 liome to mind younger ehildrou, and so on. 
 
 1657. How do you propose to remedy sucli irregularity ? — Moral suasion is the 
 best means, if you could induce parents to take a right view of their responsibility, 
 but it might be necessary to have something approaching compulsory education. I do 
 not know that the difficulties would be greater (though they might be of a different 
 kind), than they are in England. 
 
 1658. Why do you say "approaching compulsion"; would not you have compulsion 
 altogether ? — I suppose you must have compulsion. 
 
 1659. Would you have an attendance officer to go to the houses and see what 
 children were going to school, and thus o])erate on the parents, and a truancy officer 
 to operate ou the children f — Yes ; I suitpose that would be the best way. It is the 
 duty of ]mrents to send their children to school ; the only thing is to enforce it. 
 Speaking of Cape Town, I think the duty of sending children to school is pretty well 
 recognized. Excepting with regard to the lowest grade of the population, almost all 
 have their names somewhere or other, I think. 
 
 1660. You think tliat a truancy officer would meet the case ? — Yes ; and he must 
 have power to enforce attendance. 
 
 1661. Do you know anything about the facilities provided to meet the wants of 
 children of persons employed on the lines of railway Y — I do not know anything about 
 distant parts. My own country experience was all at Stellenbosch, and there we got a 
 good many children from the railway. 
 
 1662. Have you anything to suggest as to the consitution of the Boards of 
 Management ; should it be altered in any way ? — I think these Boards are the chief 
 blot iu the present system, but it is diiKcult to know how to remedy it. They are 
 wholly irresponsible, and they have to guarantee a certain sum of money to keep up 
 the funds of the school, but the Government can bring no pressure to bear upon 
 them, and I do not hesitate to sslj that in several instances gross injustice has been 
 done to deserving schoolmasters. One way in which injustice is done to schoolmasters 
 under the present system is that sometimes at the expiration of the guarantee, the 
 school is given uji or reduced to a lower class. The managers may not be responsible 
 for this, but none the less it is a great hardship to the teacher. The inconvenience of 
 the present system is felt most in the smaller towns. 
 
 1663. What would you propose to substitute for the existing Boards Y — Some 
 years ago there was some thought of Government giving Divisional Councils something 
 to do with the matter, but it met witli great opjiusitiou from teachers, ea])ecially 
 teacheis who had established positions with satisfactory Boards of Managers. I think 
 myself, however, that it would be a good thing, because Divisional Councils are 
 responsible to Government in a certain vvay, and they would come more directly under 
 the management of the Education Department. 
 
 1664. Would you let the ratepayers elect the members ? — It would practically 
 come to that ; but when the ratepayers found that the Divisional Councils were expected 
 to take cognizance of educatioual matters, they would see that some men, at any rate, 
 were put in who took an interest in education. 
 
 1665. You think the rates should be looked to for the pmiiose of paying any 
 deficiency ? — Yes. 
 
 1666. Would there not be strong hostility to that on the part of the ratepayers ; 
 or do you think it would be overcome by degrees ? — It would be mucli fairer than 
 taxing a few willing people. 1 think in nine cases out of ten a school does pay its 
 way. 
 
 1667. You tliink by tliis means people would take a greater interest in education ? 
 — Very much greater. Tlie present system of having a few guarantors and a body of 
 managers elected from them is, to my miud, the chief blot in the present system.
 
 121 
 
 1668. Have you considered Sir Langham Dale's proposal for establishing fourth *"• T. H. Peier$. 
 class undenominational public schools ? — Yes; and I feel very strongly that it is not a. ^ i. „rr ,„„, 
 thing to be desired. Feb. 2 ah, 1891. 
 
 1669. On what ground ? — For one thing, it would put the management of all the 
 better class education into the hands of one Board of Management ; the same Board that 
 conducted the first class school would also conduct the fourth class school. I think 
 that would be a disaster, and prove injurious to education. 
 
 1670. Coidd not tlie fourth class school have its own managers, just as the second 
 or third class schools might ? — I am not sure whether that is contemplated. I think it 
 IS proposed to have the .same Board of Managers. The mission school takes somewhat 
 the same place as in England the parish school does. A clergyman has a certain control 
 over the children of his parish who go to the mission school. Under the system of 
 fourth class schools, many of the children would be taken away from the mission school 
 where they are very well content to be, and so removed from the clergyman's influence. 
 
 1671. You are aware that the children who attend mission schools now are to a 
 great extent white children, are you not. Do you see any difficulty in the way of the 
 two classes, black and white, being mixed up together ? — Not the slightest. 
 
 1672. Would you disapprove of a system of having fourth class undenominational 
 schools for the whites, and leave the existing mission schools for the coloured 
 children ? — I do not see what is to be gained by it, you increase your machinery without 
 any corresponding advantage to my mind ; and these fourth class schools could only 
 possibly exist in some very few places. I do not suppose it would be noticed in Cape 
 Town itself, and if the system were started, it would not make any very great difference. 
 A few children would leak out of the present mission schools, probably those who give 
 the best tone to the school, and the mission schoolmaster would be left to struggle witli 
 the worst class of the children. I am not prepared to say that it would be a very 
 serious evil in Cape Town. For my own part, I should be in favour of giving greater 
 aid to mission schools and not increasing the school machinery. 
 
 167tJ. Would the mission school buildings be sufficient if the scheme proposed by 
 Sir Langha-n Dale were carried out ?— I think they would be large enough. I suppose 
 they would increase. What I think about the whole thing is, that the scheme might 
 work in a I'nw of the larger centres like Cape Town, Port Elizabeth and Graham's 
 Town. In ihat case, one has not very great interest in the matter one way or the otlier ; 
 you may try the experiment ; if it fails, it can easily be dropped. At such places as 
 Stellenbosch, Paarl and Caledon, I should say that the effect would probably be 
 mischievous rather than beneficial. Another thing is that if a schoolmaster takes 
 office without any guarantee, he is in a rather worse position to my mind, 
 under a lot of irresponsible people who have no particular interest in making 
 up his salary than a mission schoolmaster has. The position of a mission school- 
 master is a Very miserable one now, but the manager knows what he can afford 
 to give, and he gives it. There is no doubt about what the man gets, though it is far 
 below what he ought to have. If you get a schoolmaster for a fourth class school, his 
 balary is nominally so and so, but it is not made up, and he has to go \vithout it ; he 
 never knows where he is. When we had our attention first drawn to the scheme of 
 these foiu-th class schools, we could not get any information at all. The Diocesan 
 Education Board sent a deputation to Sir Langham Dale, and all we could get at that 
 time was a Avritten memorandum embodying the general features I and some 
 others interested in education have distinctly decided for ourselves that the establish- 
 ment of these fourth class schools is not a step in the right direction, and the details 
 make me feel more distrustful of the scheme. If you say it is only to be applied to 
 large centres, I have not much to say about it, but as far as Cape Town is concerned 
 I think it is perfectly uncalled for. You cannot demand a lower fee than five shillings 
 a mouth. You have in Iloeland-street one of the most efficient schools in the country, 
 kept by Mr. Whitton, where the highest fee is 15s. a month, and many of the pupils I 
 understand pay only 5s. ; and my highest fee is Os. a month. I do not see how you 
 can provide cheaper education than that. At a school like the Normal College, pupils 
 get practically the benefits of much higher class schools. I am very doubtful whether 
 there is any great want of school accommodation in Cape Town. I think a very large 
 number of children in Cape Town go to school, so far as having their names on the 
 books goes, far more than you would find in any large town in England, like Loudon 
 or Manchester, until compulsory education commenced. 
 
 1674. You think that in town it is no disadvantage to the white children to be 
 mixed up with the coloured, and it is an advantage to the latter ? — I cannot say that 
 it is no disadvantage. I think the position of a child living in the streets of Cape 
 Town cannot be made very much worse, if for a few hours a day it is in contact with 
 another child or children who have got all tlie vices of the Cape Town streets. It is 
 the association out of school that does the harm, and that will happen, do what you will.
 
 122 
 
 Sev. T. u. I'tteyf. 1G75. Mr. Row((ii.'\ Do you think if tho present mission enhools received larger 
 
 F*b. 2Uh^ 1891 grants, they would bi« able to <lo wliat tliese additional fourth class sohools propose to 
 do i* — Yes. I do not know what tliese fourth class schools are to do more than efficient 
 mission schools are doing now. 
 
 I(J7t). Are you aware that several of tho mission schools in Capo Town are almost 
 entirely attended by white children ? — I know of two. I would rather, for my own 
 part, SCO a multiplication of mission schools to which it was understood that only a certain 
 class of children should go, than have recourse to the miserable system of undenomina- 
 tional schools. I maintain that at present the term " undenominational " is a misnomer 
 altogether as applied to our sohools. There are no such things since the last Act of 
 Parliament, introduced by Mr. Hofmeyr, was passed. The School Boards in tho 
 country are composed mainly of members of the Dutch Church, and they have control 
 of the religious teaohing. They can arrange what religious teaching shall be given 
 and what shall not. That is not what I want to see. 
 
 1677. Rfv. Moorreeii.'\ How would you alter that condition of things ; you can 
 hardly help the greater part of the population being Dutch, can you i* — I only state 
 the fact as it exists. 
 
 1678. Mr. Theron.'] Through what medium would you endeavour to secure an 
 interest in education among the farming population of the country ? — That is a very 
 difficidt question, but I think tho Government has made as much provision as can well 
 be expected. It has, for instance, established district boarding schools whore children 
 are taken at very low rates, and where assistance, I believe, is given to poor parents. 
 That is an excellent thing. My experience is that at farm schools the attendance is 
 very irregular, and the best thing for a farmer is to send his boy to boarding school, 
 where he is under no temptation to idle his time, as he is obliged to be in school, and 
 he gets two or three years' good training. I think the farmers should be encouraged 
 to send their children to these boarding schools. I hear admirable accounts of some of 
 them, and they are doing very excellent work indeed. 
 
 1679. You said that by taxing tho farmers for educational purposes, you would 
 make them take a greater interest in education, did you not ? — I think it would tend 
 to secure a better attendance. I do not mean to say that it would produce a revolution 
 in the minds of the farmers. They would naturally say, now that I pay so much 
 taxation, I am not going to let my neighbour have all the benefit. I will send my own 
 children to school also. 
 
 1680. Suppose you were starting a school in the country, with what class of people 
 would you prefer to work, taxpayers paying rates against their wish, or people who by 
 guarantee came forward and showed their interest in education ? — If I were going to 
 take a situation as schoolmaster, personally I think I would rather deal with the tax- 
 payer, provided I felt I had got at my back a certain amount of protection from the 
 Education Office. 
 
 1681. And the Government? — Yea I certainly should not care to be under an 
 ordinary School Board as they exist now in small villages. 
 
 1682. But whwn they guarantee, your salary is fixed and certain ; they are 
 responsible to the Department that your salary is paid. What difficulty would there be 
 to you as a schoolmaster ?- There are many other difficulties that occnr to a teacher 
 besides money difficidties. 
 
 1683. Would you not rather work with men who took an interest in education, 
 and came forward to show it by the guarantee which they signed, than with ratepayers 
 who paid rates against their will ? — It is quite possible to take too great an interest 
 in some things : sometimes there is zeal without knowledge. I think myself that it is 
 just and fair that the educational work of the country should be defrayed from the 
 funds of the neighbourhood where the school is, and that being the case, the teacher 
 must put up with the inconveniences ; but I beli(!ve the inconveniences would be on 
 the whole less if the Board that was elected was somewhat under the control of the 
 Education Department here. 
 
 1684. Are not the present Boards with the guarantee system under the Education 
 Department ? — I do not know to what extent that is so. As far as I know. Sir Lang- 
 ham Dale always hesitates— and I think properly so — to interfere with the internal 
 economy of a school or Board. 
 
 1685. If you prefer working with the taxpaj'ers, or tho Board elected by the tax- 
 payers, then naturally you would not only place the undenominational schools, but also 
 the mission schools, under that Board, would you not ? — I am afraid it will come to 
 that. 
 
 1686. Have you any suggestions to offer in connection with the subject of 
 language 'r* — I think the present condition of things in tliat respect is all that is needed. 
 Ample facilities are given for acquiring a knowledge of Dutch in almost all the schools, 
 and there is no need for any further facilities that I am aware of.
 
 123 
 
 1687. It has been suggested that there should be a paper in Dutch for the Ele- ■»«'•• T. H. Petns, 
 mentary examination : are you in favoui- of that ?— No ; not because it is Dutch, but p . oTtT i89i 
 because I think it is a very bad system of examination. It would be a distinct gain to " ' • ' 
 a Dutch speaking boy or girl, no doubt, but it would handicap all the others. 
 
 168«. \Vhat would be the effect of that handicapping y — I suppose that all the 
 Dutch speaking children, to whom Dutch was their mother tongue, and who had 
 acquired a good knowledge of English, would be at the top of the lists if it was an 
 additional subject. 
 
 1689. But suppose the paper was set in both languages, and a boy could choose, 
 what would be the effect then ? — I should say that the effect would be damaging to 
 Dutch children, who would probably be tempted to take the Dutch paper instead of 
 the English, and thereby lose a certain amount of knowledge in English, which I 
 suppose everybody knows must ultimately be the language of the country. 
 
 16&0. Suppose there was this additional paper in Dutch, with two other papers, 
 one in German and the other in French ? — That would be doing just what takes place 
 in the higher examinations, and I see no objection to it. 
 
 1691. Would the boys who go up for the Elementary examination be able to take 
 an additional language, do you think ? — Very seldom, as far as my experience of boys 
 goes. 
 
 1692. You think the candidates would be sufficiently burdened with the other 
 subjects ? — Yes. 
 
 1693. Would it not stimulate clever boys on the other hand, to work up to that 
 mark ? — Possibly it might, but one great difficulty that presents itself to my mind in 
 regard to an English boy taking Dutch is this, that the Dutch paper is always very 
 much harder than the corresponding English, French, or German paper. It supposes 
 a much greater knowledge of the language. A French paper is generally quite 
 elementary in its character, but to take a page from Charles Dickens' works, abounding 
 in idioms, and set that to be translated from the English into Dutch would, I think, 
 tax a very efficient scholar. 
 
 Mr. F. Y. St. Lcger examined. 
 1694. President,'] You were formerly, I believe, principal of St. Andrew's 
 
 Mr. 
 
 College?- Yes. f.t.suu,^. 
 
 1695. And you have taken an interest in education ? — Yes ; considerable interest. Feb. 27th, 1891. 
 
 1696. Have you seen the questions submitted to this Commission for considera- 
 tion ?— Yes. 
 
 1697. The first relates to irregularity of attendance at school. We find that there 
 is great irregularity on the part of children whose names are on the school books, and 
 it is also stated that a number of children who ought to be at school, do not attend at 
 all. Assuming that to be so, how do you think the evil ought to be remedied ? — I 
 cannot say I have any personal experience, but I think the suggestion of Sir Langham 
 Dale a good one, namely, to employ a truancy officer, whose duty it should be to see 
 that children in the streets, during school hours, should be chased into a proper 
 receptacle. 
 
 1698. Another cause alleged for irregularity of attendance is because the parents 
 require the services of the children at home, or to run errands ; what would you do in 
 such cases ? — That is a difficult question. My own feeling is very strong in favour of 
 compulsory education. 
 
 1699. Having an attendance officer to visit the parents' houses, and a truancy 
 officer to pick up the children in the streets and see that they go to school ? — Yes. Of 
 course, if the parents can show reasonable cause, I would say let them be. 
 
 1700. Do you think such a system woidd be resented at all ? — Those who appre- 
 ciate the advantages of education I should say do send their children to school, and 
 there are already abundant facilities for it ; those who do not, probably would not much 
 care about the matter — that is, the very ignorant, careless, and perhaps vicious people, 
 who let their children just run about the streets. 
 
 1701. But you would nevertheless advocate compulsory education 'f — Yes. 
 
 1702. Mr. Rowan.'] Have you had any experience in the working of a compulsory 
 law ? — No ; I have had no experience. 
 
 1703. Dean Holmes.] Will you give the Commission your views as to the 
 establishment of fourth class public undenominational schools ; have you seen Sir 
 Langham Dale's proposal ? — Yes. 
 
 1704. Do you think it better to have these fovirth class schools, vnih. the object of 
 attracting white children, or would you give further aid to the mission schools now in 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] B
 
 124 
 
 Mr. existence ? — I have not considered the question very attentively. If the mission 
 
 F. T. St. U gtr. gQ{jQ^,jj, j^j.g -w-orking well, I should hesitate to interfere with them, though I dislike the 
 Feb. 2"tli, 1891. mixture of colour. I consider that it injures the white children and does not improve 
 the black. 
 
 1705. You are aware, I suppose, of the present sj'stem of Boards of Management : 
 do you approve of it, or would you renoramend any other alternative ? — It is a matter 
 rather out of my experience, although I have heeu member of a Board. If you give 
 the Boards of Management a defined corporate position and perpetuity of existence, it 
 would be better. 
 
 1706. Do you think the rates should be come upon for any deficiency; would that 
 tend to create greater interest in the minds of the people generally, and make the schools 
 more efficient ? — 1 think the pecuniary screw is generally effective. If the rates were 
 made a last resort, ratepayers would probably show more interest in the election of the 
 Board. 
 
 1707. You tliink the present mode of constituting the Boards might bo superseded 
 by the ratepayers electing them, on condition that the}' get the same help from Govern- 
 ment as now, and tliey themselves were ultimately responsible through the rates for any 
 deficiency ? — I think that would answer. 
 
 1708. There is this difficulty in connection with the present Boards, that at the 
 end of three years they go out. The consequence is, that between that time and the 
 time when the new Board comes int;o existence, the property is vested in nobody : do 
 you think there ought to be some means, and if so, what, for giving perpetual succes- 
 sion to these bodies ? — I think certainly there shoidd be some means for giving them 
 perpetual succession. 
 
 1709. What would you suggest ; do you think there should be a Government 
 nominee to act as trustee till the new Board was elected ? — Yes, so long as there is some 
 perpetual element. 
 
 1710. Mr. Romin^ Do you think it would answer if the Divisional Council ap- 
 pointed two nominees, the Municipality two, the Government two, and the various 
 school committees in the district two, so as to form a Nominee Board having control or 
 supervision over the education of that particular district ? — The best sj-stem would be 
 that which brought the administration into closest contact with the ordinary system of 
 local government. 
 
 l~il. lln'. Moorrees^ I suppose you are pretty well acquainted with the loca 
 opinion of Cape Town ratepayers, are you not ? — Yes. 
 
 1712. Do you think that a school rate would be popular in a centre like Cape 
 Town ? — I do not think that anj' rate is ever popular. 
 
 1713. Is it advisible to introduce it, in your opinion ? — Yes, if it is the right thing. 
 171-i. Would it meet with strong opposition, in your opinion 'i — There is strong 
 
 opposition to every scheme of taxation. You have to overcome that. 
 
 1715. Are you acquainted with the constitution of Divisional Councils at present? 
 — I think so. 
 
 1716. Di'an Hohnen^ You woidd advocate a system of managers for each 
 individual school, under a general board, like we have in England r* — Yes. Qxiite so ; 
 elected by the general body of electors in the division. 
 
 1717. Fresiclfini.! Do 3'ou think that any further facilities can be afforded for 
 giving instruction in the English and Dutch languages ? — I think the report of the 
 Education Department is that abundant facilities are already given. 
 
 1718. Is that your own opinion ? — I have verj' little actual experience of the 
 schools of the country. I should say the Education Department is well advised by its 
 inspectors. 
 
 1719. Do you think that a paper in Dutch should be added to the Elementary 
 examination, and additional marks given for it. The University Council have not 
 imnoited it into that examination, but do you think they ouglitto be advised to do so? 
 — My opinion is that the tendency would be to retard education, and it would not be 
 advisable. The object would be attained if an examination were held in Dutch, and 
 those who passed, phiced iu a separate list, but not in such a way as to affect their posi- 
 tion in the general examination. 
 
 1720. How would it do to have an alternative paper, Dutch, German, French or 
 Kafir, and give all candidates the game chance ? — I do not like that proposal. 
 
 1721. If a Dutch boy is handicapped with English, why should not an Engli.'h 
 boy be handicapped with a Dutch paper ? — It is to the advantage of the boy wlio 
 speaks Dutch only to be induced to learn a language which opens to him a richer 
 literature. Instead of beiug handicapped, he is advantaged. It is an inducement to 
 the boy to improve his mind. 
 
 1722. But he is handicapped in that particular examination, is he not ? — Yes ; 
 that is so.
 
 125 
 
 1723. Is it not an advantage to an English boy to know Dutch in this country* — M""- 
 
 I mean the best Dutch ? — Yes ; but life is short ; and I think people wtmld prefer to '''• ^■f^J^"'- 
 devote themselves more to German and French. I do not underrate Dutch, but it is Feb. 27th, 1891. 
 not so rich in literature as the other languages. 
 
 1724. Mr. Roiran. | One of the witnesses told us that there are boys employed in 
 selling newspapers in the street who have very little education, and he thought that 
 something might be done on the half-time system to meet the wants of these boys ; 
 what is your opinion ? — I think the boys engaged in selling papers would be the veri- 
 sort of boys I should want to set the truancy officer after. If any of the boys iu the 
 office are not sufficiently taught, I should certainly approve of the half-time system. 
 
 1725. Are the apprentices fairl3^ educated ? — Yes ; I think so. 
 
 17:^6. We ha^e been told that there is a good deal of ignorance in regard to 
 spelling ? — So there is among officers in the army. As a class, 1 do not think they are 
 ignorant boys. 
 
 1727. I suppose these apprentices would not come under the surveillance of the 
 truancy officer, would they. They would be over the age ? — I think so. 
 
 Marah Socker examined. 
 
 1728. Presidtnt.'] You are a Mahomraedan and reside in Cape Town ? — Yes. 
 
 1729. I believe you are contractor for the Judges' wagons? — Yes. 
 
 1730. You are well acquainted with the Malays in Cape Town ? — Yes. 
 
 1731. What is your official position among them ? — I have none. 
 
 1732. I believe you own a considerable amount of property in Cape Town ?-— Yes. 
 
 1733. Have the Malays a good deal of property here ? — Yes. 
 
 1734. And they have also a good many children, have they not ? — Yes. 
 
 1735. Aj"e they interested in the education of their children ? — Yes. 
 
 1736. Where do they generally send them to school ? — The priest keeps a school. 
 
 1737. Do they also send their children to the mission schools 't — Yes. 
 
 1738. Are they satisfied with the mission sehcols 'i — Yes, I think so. 
 
 173!*. How is it they leave so early then ? — We place them in the Arabic schools 
 to learn the Koran. 
 
 1740. Are you satisfied with the present arrangements, or do you want a change ? 
 — No, we are satisfied. 
 
 1741. Do the children pay anything in the mission schools ? — Yes, a penny a week. 
 
 1742. And what is the charge at the Arabic schools ? — Threepence a week. 
 
 1743. Your best boys go on farther with their learning, do they not !' — Yes, they 
 go higher and then they pay more. We give the priest £10 or £15 for teaching them. 
 
 1744. Would you like to have better schools for your children ? — Yes, if we could 
 get them, but we are satisfied with what is going on now. 
 
 1745. If there were better schools, do you think the Malay population would 
 mind subscribing a little among themselves ? — I cannot teU. 
 
 1746. Do you know Abdol Burns?— Yes. 
 
 1747. He says that your people are anxious for education, and he thought thej' 
 would not mind being taxed if it was for the benefit of their own children ; is that 
 so ? — I do not see how he can tell that. 
 
 1748. What do you think ? — We have plenty of taxes as it is, and I do not know 
 that the people would agree to pay more. 
 
 1749. What taxes do you pay a year ? — £65 a year, 
 
 1750. And you would prefer not paying more ? — Yes. 
 
 Imaum Ta/icb examined, 
 
 1751. Preaiiknt.'] Are you a Malay priest in Cape Town ? — Yes. lw-,;„^T-ii.rh. 
 
 1752. How long have you been so ? — For ten years. Feti. I'lh, i89i. 
 
 1753. Have you been to Mecca? — Yes, twice. 
 
 1754. You have heard the last witness say that Mahommedan children, after 
 leaving the mission schools, go to the priest to be taught the Koran; is that so? — 
 Not all the children ; some of them go to :he Aialnc schools., Those iu my school are 
 taught to read and write in Arabic, but not iu Epglish or Dutch. 
 
 1755. Would you like your children to be kept in your own school, and not go 
 to the mission schools at all ?— That depends upon the parents. I have not got room 
 for them all ; I am too poor. If I had the room, I should be willing to take all the 
 Malay children, and I think they would come. 
 
 R 2
 
 126 
 
 Imaum Talieh. 1750. If you liad ill your school a teacher to instruct in Dutch and English, 
 
 Feb. -JTtb, 1891 
 
 would you be satisfied with that, leuvinjj you to teach them religion Y — 1 cannot say 
 whether the people would prefer that. 
 
 1757. Dr. ]ierry.'\ Are there mauy of the Malay children who do not go to any 
 school ? — Yes ; a good mauy of tlie poorer classes. 
 
 1758. How many do you think ; would you say half the children ? — The largest 
 number of the Malay children receive instruction, either in the mission schools or in 
 the Arabic schools. 
 
 1750. Would it not, in your opinion, be a good thing if they all went to school i* 
 — Yes ; but how are we to get them there ? 
 
 17 GO. You might go to the parents and urge them to send their children to school, 
 and take up any children found loitering in the streets during school hours ; would 
 not that be a good thing for your people ? — Yes. 
 
 1761. Who would pay for their schooling Y — I think the Malays would bo willing 
 to pay for the instruction of tlieir own children, but I am not sure. 
 
 17G2. But it commends itscdf to you as a good thing, docs it not '^ — Yes. 
 
 1763. Are the Malays, as a body, anxious to have their children educated '^ — Yes. 
 
 Cape Toicii, Saiunlaij, February 28l/i, 1891. 
 
 A. N. Eowan, Esq., 
 Dr. Berry. 
 
 T. P. Therox, Esq. (Acting Chairman), 
 
 Dean Holmes, 
 liev. Moorrees, 
 Rev. Coetzee, 
 
 Rev II. Tindall examined. 
 
 R,v. H. Tiiidaii. 1764. Chairman.'] I believe you are Wesleyan Minister at Stellenbosch ? Yes. 
 
 1765. Do you know the object of the Commission ; have you seen a list of the 
 
 Feb 28th, 1891. ^^^^^^ j.^ ^^ considered ?— Yes. 
 
 1766. Are you acquainted with the present system of education in the Cape 
 Colony ? — Y''es. 
 
 1767. Have j'ou paid any particular attention to it ? — Yes ; I have been an 
 observer of tlie system, and have been manager of mission schools, besides being con- 
 nected with a public school once. I was secretary and treasurer of the undenomina- 
 tional school at Robertson for three years. 
 
 1768. Do you find the present system a good one ? — Yes, on the whole. Of 
 course there are defects. 
 
 1769. Will you point out any defects which you have found in tlie system ? — The 
 principal defect is the want of continuity in the school committees. 
 
 1770. How do you find the attendance in the mission school at Stellenbosch, is it 
 regular or irregular ? — It is fairly good on the whole, but at certain seasons of the 
 year, it is very irregular ; at harvest time for instance, and when the children are engaged 
 in picking up acorns, and at the pressing season. The difficulty is in regard to tlio 
 attendance of the poorer class of children. 
 
 1771. You mean that the attendance is irregular at times, when there is other 
 work in the country ? — Yes, when the pupils are employed. For instance, if parents 
 have a great deal of work, the children have to be employed to carry their food and so 
 on. 
 
 1772. Is this irregularity of attendance most noticeable among the younger classes 
 or the bigger classes, those who can work ? — It is mostly in the case of those who can 
 work. 
 
 1773. Have you any objection to a child who can work during certain times of the 
 year being absent fi-om school when required ? — Personally, I have no objection to it, 
 but it is rather a serious matter for the teacher. Very often it injures the school, and 
 it jeo])ardises the teacher's chance of getting a good service allowance, and interferes 
 with the progress of the children. The evil of course is not easily avoided, as parents 
 are obliged often to make use of their children to supplement their income. 
 
 1774. What would you suggest in order to prevent this in-egularity of attendance 
 and compel the children to come to school ? — 1 really hardly know. There seems to be 
 nothing short of compulsion, and I am not prepared to say that that is advisable under 
 the circumstances, particularly in the country districts.
 
 127 
 
 1775. Would you have any objection to it in a large city like Cape Town ? — I •»"•• B. Titida 
 think it more suitable to large towns, at any rate, than the country districts. „ , ';tz 
 
 1776. Would you make it compulsory by Act of Parliament, or would you em- ' " ' 
 ploy some other means to compel the children to attend school ? — I am not prepared to 
 
 say. That is a question that the Legislature must decide. 
 
 1777. What machinery would you suggest, in order to compel children to attend 
 school ? — You would have to adopt some similar system as exists in England, where 
 there is visitation of the houses, and children found not attending school are compelled 
 to do so. 
 
 1778. But you hold that that is not necessary in the country districts ? — I think 
 it would be a difficult thing to carry out in the country districts. It would be very 
 hard on the poor, because there are many children whose parents are wretchedly poor, 
 in many cases unfortunately through intemperate habits. If you compelled them to 
 attend school, you would have to clothe them and perhaps feed them. 
 
 1779. Take your own school, would you have sufficient room if you compelled all 
 these children to attend school ? — I think the three mission schools in Stellenbosch 
 would have room to take all the coloured children. 
 
 1780. Do many white children attend your school ? — Very few. 
 
 1781. Those who attend, do they all belong to the poorer classes ? — Yes. 
 
 1782. Do you think it desirable that a distinction shovild be drawn between 
 the white and black classes ? — I do not think there should be anything to exclude 
 white children from a coloured school, if the parents are respectable, and they are clean 
 and properly clothed, and rice versa, but naturally the classes prefer keeping separate. 
 
 1783. Suppose provision is made to remove these poorer class white children from 
 your school, would you have any objection Y — I should be very sorry to lose them. 
 
 1784. I mean, if provision is made to separate the two classes, and give these 
 poorer white children a better education than they receive at present ? — The mere 
 separation on theory, I should object to, but if it is found necessary from a practical 
 point of view, on account of there not being sufficient provision for the children of 
 European extraction, then I should not object. 
 
 1785. But from your experience, do not you think the influence exercised by the 
 one class over the other is detrimental to a European child ? — -I am prepared to admit 
 that the influence of the lower class of coloured children, particularly in towns, on white 
 children, is not beneficial, and that their association in the same school is not desirable. 
 
 1786. Have you seen Sir Langham Dale's proposidon to establish fourth class 
 undenominational public schools to meet the wants of these poor white children Y — Yes, 
 I have not studied it particularly ; but I think in many places some provision of that 
 kind is necessary, on account of the fees in the other schools being too high. I mean 
 the fees in the public schools. 
 
 1787. Bean Holmes.'] Will you tell us what fees you charge in the mission 
 school ? — A penny a week. 
 
 1788. Then the fees have nothing to do with the irregularity of attendance ? — No. 
 
 1789. Do you know any particular circumstances why it should be harder for 
 chikben in a country town like Stellenbosch, to be sent to school necessarily, than in a 
 town like Cape Town ? — The parents are employed in agricultural work in the country, 
 aud there is employment for children also, which there is not in town. 
 
 1790. If an attendance officer were appointed, do you think the parents would 
 resent the visits of such a man, whose duty it would be to enquire whether the children 
 attended school or not ? — I do not think so. I think an officer of that kind might 
 be very useful. At present I know the different denominations do look after the 
 children, and urge the parents to send them to school. 
 
 1791. Then you find that moral suasion has a good effect? — Yes. 
 
 1792. Do you find that any difficulty arises in the minds of white parents about 
 their children coming to school, because they would mix with coloured children in the 
 same building ? — Most white parents would not send their childr-ep on that account, 
 and they put them to small private schools. 
 
 1793. "V\ here the fees are much higlier ? — Yes ; higher than in the mission schools, 
 but lower than the public schools ; but there are some fairly respectable parents who do 
 not object to the mixing with uoloiu-ed children. 
 
 1794. Dr. Berry.'] Is there a first-class undenominational school at Stellen- 
 bosch ? — Yes. 
 
 1795. It has a special name, has it not I"*— It is called th? Gymnasium. 
 
 1796. Are there many private schools in Stellenbosch t* — There are several small 
 private sr^hools conducted by young women. 
 
 1797. Are there any private schools for colom-ed people ? — No. 
 
 1798. Do the people whose children go to the mission schools find work in Stellen- 
 bosch or the immediate neighbourhood, or do thoy go to a distance to find work i"— They
 
 128 
 
 iUv. E. Tindali. mostl}' find work about Stellenbosch, about the farms. At harvest time they go out to 
 Feb 28th 1891 other districts, and some of them got work ou the railway. 
 
 1799. Do the fathers and mothers both go out to work ? — The fathers do generally. 
 
 1800. Wliat is the need lor the cliildren sta3'ing at home ? — The mothers go out 
 sometimes, especially during the pressing seasou. The elder children have to stay at 
 home and take care of the younger children ; and they also cany food to the parents. 
 
 1801. l)o you find the fees are paid pretty regulai'ly in your schooL'' — Fairly well. 
 
 1802. Do the chUdreu attend for two or three years running ? — Yes ; some of 
 them attend for five years and longer. 
 
 1803. What would you consider a fair standard for a child to attain in your 
 school Y — Standard III. We have a few occasionally who attain Standard IV, but the 
 third standard is aimed at. Wheu they have attained that, they mostly leave. 
 
 1804. Can they still remain if they choose '^ — Yes. 
 
 1805. What grant do you get from Grovernment r* — £75 a year. There are three 
 teachers. 
 
 1806. Are they certificated teachers ? — One is ; the assistant teacher is certificated ; 
 a female teacher. The headmaster is uncertificated. He is an old servant whom 
 we have had for 36 years. 
 
 1807. Eiv. Coetzee.'] Do you think that any need exists in Stellenbosch for these 
 fourth class undenominational publir schools as proposed by Su- Langham Dale Y — I 
 cannot say. I have confined my attention pretty much to my own work. I am not on 
 the board of the other school, and have had nothing to do with it. I believe there are 
 very few children white or coloured in Stellenbosch who are not receiving education in 
 some way or another. I scarcely feel free to offer an opinion on the subject. On the 
 whole, I think the establishment of fourth class uudeuominational public schools would 
 be beneficial, without expressing an opinion as to any locality. 
 
 1808. Rcr. Moorrres.^ These children who attend the private schools, are they the 
 children of parents unable to pay the fees in the first class school or have they any objection 
 to go to other schools ? — There may be some perhaps who wotild have an objection, but 
 I think as rule, they are very young children. I am not very intimately acquainted 
 with the private schools. Such children perhaps do not care to send their children to 
 large schools. 
 
 1809. With regard to these fourth class imdenominational schools, two plans have 
 been proposed. The first is : that the managers of the mission schools should become 
 managers of the fourth class schools, with one or two of the general pubUc added. The 
 second is, that the managers of the fourth class schools should be elected by the public. 
 Which of the two systems would you prefer ? — I ])ref er their being elected by the public. 
 
 1810. Mr. Rowan.^ Are you acquainted with Sir Langham Dale's scheme of aiding 
 voluntary schools ? — Yes. I have seen the proposal. 
 
 1811. Do you think it a good one':' — Not unless you wish to change the whole 
 system, and make it denominational right through, as the mission schools are. 
 
 1812. Such schools as are specially mentioned in the report. There is the Ehenish 
 Institute for instance ? — I think the Khouish Institute is highly deserving of a grant as 
 a school, but I think the Government should be consistent throughout. If they give to 
 one, they ought to give to all. They have given a grant to a second school at the 
 Paarl, and I do not see on what ground they can refuse a grant to the second school at 
 Stellenbosch. It is an old established institution, but at the same time if you adopt 
 that principle, you are just making the whole sj'stem of education in the Colony deno- 
 minational, and handing over the education of children to the different churches. 
 
 1813. Rev. Codzee.'] There would be no objection to making them exceptions to 
 the general rule, would there ? — That is a matter of opinion. I should have strong 
 objections on the ground that it would militate against the present system. 
 
 1814. Chairman.'] With regard to the third point, what steps should be taken to 
 give the Boards of Management perpetual succession, and provide foi- the tenure of 
 public school property r* You remarked that the jiresent system was defective, will you 
 be good enough to explan in what way ? — The defect is this : the school committee is 
 elected for three years, and at the expii-atiou of that time, the committee expires, and 
 it is a question whether it is to be renewed again or not. Then there is a ditficulty as 
 to the proprietorship of buildings and so on. I was connected with a public school at 
 Eobertson once. I was secretarj' and treasurer ; in fact, the main mover in the matter. 
 The Dutch minister died and his place was vacant. It was thought desirable to raise 
 the school to a second class school, and a committee was formed, but the thing collapsed. 
 The teacher was not popular, and we had a great deal of trouble in raising his salary. 
 In that case there was no ditficulty about the building, as the Dutch Reformed Church 
 owned it, and lent it for the purpose, but it is a great defect that there should be a 
 break in the Board of Management. I think some scheme should be devised whereby 
 the School Board in each division could be elected by the ratepayers.
 
 129 
 
 1815. Then you would j^ropose, instead of the present Committee of Management Rf. 
 or Board of Management, to elect by the ratepayers an Education Board for the district. „ , 
 Is that your proposal ? — That is ray idoa. I do not wish to propose anything. I have 
 not studied the subject sufficiently to give an intelligent opinion. 
 
 1816. What would you mean by the ratepayers, those who elect members for the 
 Divisional Council, whose qualification is £75, or those entitled to vote for members of 
 Parliament, whose qualification is only £25 ? — I cannot give an opinion. I have not 
 studied the subject sufficiently. 
 
 1817. Your idea, in order to prevent this break in the present Boards of Manage- 
 ment is, to substitute some Educational Board for the whole district ? — Yes ; something 
 of that kind. 
 
 1818. Would you place the mission schools in the district also under the Board ? — 
 I do not think we are quite prepared for that at present. Ultimately they would come 
 under it, no doubt. 
 
 1819. But at first you would only place the undenominational schools under it ? — 
 Yes. I think for the present, and perhaps for 8(jme time to come, it is better for the 
 mission schools to be under the Education Department. 
 
 1820. Dean Holmes.'] With regard to this continuity of management, supposing it 
 is deemed wise to carry on the present system, would it be a good plan to have a 
 Government nominee on each of these Boards of Management, who should be the holder 
 of any property in the interim ? — I think so. 
 
 1821. Have you considered the suggestion that the Board should consist of two 
 members nominated by the Government, two by the Divisional Council, and two by the 
 Municipality ? — I have not considered that. 
 
 1822. Do you think there would be any real objection on the part of managers of 
 mission schools to be under this Board, provided they were left quite free in the manage- 
 ment of their own school ? — I cannot say. I do not see quite clearly how that would 
 work. 
 
 1823. Do you see any objection to a rate levied for school purposes ? — Personally 
 I woidd have no objection, but I think it would be exceedingly unpopular at present. 
 I fear so. 
 
 1824. You know how the income is made up from these schools ; there are the 
 guarantors, the fees, and the Government grant ; suppose the new system were adopted, 
 the guarantors would be dispensed with. Would there be any particular objection 
 to making up any deficiency in the school income from contributions from public bodies 
 like Divisional Councils ? — If you adopted the Board system, you must have a rate. 
 
 1825. You would prefer a direct rate rather than a contribution from the 
 Divisional Councils ? — It would come to the same thing. If there was a rate, I fthoidd 
 be disposed to say it ought to be collected through the Divisional Councils ; there 
 sliould not be a separate machinery for raising it. 
 
 1826. Br. Berry.~\ Supposing that such Boards are constituted in the districts of 
 the Colony, and you have Boards of Managers who have got local schools, wliat 
 relationship do you think the one class of Board shovdd bear to the other. What 
 functions would you give the general Board to discharge, as far as local managers of 
 schools are concerned Y — The financial details should devolve on the general Board, 
 and the inti inal management of the school on the other Board. I presume the general 
 Board would have to determine on the needs of the district. 
 
 1827. And the rate of fees ? — I do not know about that. I have not thought about it. 
 
 1828. The general Board would be responsible for the expenditure in the 
 district ? — Yes. 
 
 1829. How would you prevent local managers running the general Board in' o 
 debt ? — There would be a difficulty there, unless you gave the general Board power to 
 determine the fees. 
 
 1830. How would it act in the case of farm schools, would you bring them under 
 the supervision of the District School Board ? — If you had a District School Board, I 
 suppose it would have to take the supervision of all these cla-'^ses of schools. 
 
 1831. A difficulty might arise in this way, if a District School Board undertakes 
 the discharge of liability arising within schools in the district, and if individual 
 farmers are at liberty to start their own school on their own farms, the revenue might 
 be taken away from the general Board, and a shortfall would be almost inevitable ?— But 
 I do not suppose that any farm school would come in for a claim, unless it was 
 established by the approval of the general Board. 
 
 1832. Then you think the establishment of farm schools in a district ought to be 
 a question for the consideration of the general Board of the district r* — Yes, Govern- 
 ment aided farm schools. 
 
 1833. Would you say that what are known as Circuit schools should come under 
 the supervision of the Board ? — Yes.
 
 130 
 
 Sev. n. Tindaii. 18-'!4. Do not j'ou think that a general Board would require to have a say in the 
 
 Feb 28th 1891 management of mission schools as woU ; because if you have a sepai'ate body or bodies 
 in towns, with power to set up schf^ols, the fees of which are only a penny a week, and 
 Government grants ain given, some very considerable friction might arise. The 
 scholars might prefer going there to the Board schools, which might be a little more 
 expensive. Do not you think to such an extent at all events, the general Board would 
 reqtiire to have a say in the management of mission schools ? — I suppose you mean as 
 to their establishment. 
 
 1835. As to their establishment, and as to who shall attend them ? — I do not 
 suppose they would have a say as to who sliould attend them. If you had a publio 
 school, anyone who wanted to send his children ought to be able to send them. 
 
 18;5f>. If you establish public schools, and make the ratepayers so far responsible, 
 the ratepayers will naturally ask, where is the revenue to come from ; and if while you 
 establish the.se schools and make the ratepayers in a manner responsible, you at the 
 same time open the door, through the mission schools, to a low class and cheap 
 education, would it not tend to throw an extra burden on the ratepayers ? — Yes ; it 
 might have that effect. 
 
 1837. From that point of view, then, the general Board would need to have some 
 say in the establishment of mission schools ? — Yes ; it would appear so. 
 
 1838. And that would further the way to the gradual absorption of the mission 
 schools into the general Board system, would it not ? — Yes ; which ultimately might 
 not be an evil. 
 
 1839. Rer. Coetzec.'] Are you acquainted with the peculiar circumstances of the 
 rural population in up oountr}' districts, say beyond Beaufort West ? — I am acquainted 
 with the districts of Clanwilliani and Naraaqualand, which, I suppose, are very much 
 the same. 
 
 1840. I suppose the population in those parts is very much scattered ? — Yes; the 
 farms are a very wide distance apart. 
 
 1841. Would you, imder the peculiar circumstances of the farming population, 
 advise the levying of a rate for educational ptu'poses ? — I think it would be very 
 unpopular. 
 
 1842. Rpv. Mooryeen.~\ I believe you were a member of the school committee at 
 Robertson ?-^Yes. 
 
 1 843. When you were a member of that committee, was there ever a deficiency ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1844. Do not you think that difficulty very frequently occurs in schools supported 
 by guarantors r* — I fancy so. In the case I mention, fortunately, at the middle of the 
 third year, another minister offered to take the teacher off our hands. The managers 
 had to make good that deficiency, but I do'Uot think there has ever been a deficiency 
 since. We had very great trouble ; many of the guarantors left, others became 
 bankrupt, and others refused to pay. 
 
 1845. Chainnan.'\ What further facilities can be afforded, do you think, for giving 
 instruction in both the English and Dutch languages. What languages are taught in 
 your school ? — English and Dutch. 
 
 1846. Do you find it desirable to teach both languages? — Yes ; it is desirable that 
 all children should be able to read Dutch, and English is needed in the every day 
 requirements of life. 
 
 1847. Do you give instruction in the two languages conjointly ? — Yes ; the 
 children are all taught to read Dutch. 
 
 1848. Do you start with Dutch ? — We generally carry on the two languages 
 simultaneously, and the children are gradually worked up to read both. The main 
 instruction in the school is given in English. 
 
 1849. To what standard do you take the children up to in both languages ? — To 
 the third standard — those who remain long enough, that is. 
 
 1850. You do not find it inconvenient to bring a child up to the third standard in 
 the Dutch language ? — No, not if we can keep them long enough. 
 
 1851. In the undenominational public school vrith which you were connected, 
 were both languages taught also ? — Yes. 
 
 1852. Were not the children brought up to a higher standard in Dutch? — Not at 
 that time ; that is nearly 30 j-ears ago. Things were in a very elementary state then. 
 
 1S53. From your connection with the farming population, do you think it 
 desirable that instruction in Dutch should be encouraged in this Colony. Is it a 
 necessary requirement for the inhabitants of the eoimtry, whether they are Dutch or 
 English ; I do not mean to make it compulsory 't — I think it is very desirable. The 
 Dutch inhabitauts have a riglit to claim that their children shoulil be taught in Dutch. 
 I would uot, as you say, make it compulsory. My children have always taken Dutch 
 in examinations.
 
 131 
 
 1854. Do you think that provision should be made in the Elementary examination ^"- ^- Tindaii. 
 for Dutch ? — No ; I do not think so. p^j, jstb 1891. 
 
 IS-OS. And if such provision were made, do you think it would encourage the 
 study of the language ? — Yes. 
 
 Rev. S. J. (lu Toif examined. 
 
 1856. Chairman.'] I beUeve you reside at the Paarl ? — Yes. Sei.s.J.duTmt. 
 
 1857. Have you ever held any educational appointment ? — Yes. I was Superin- -p^^^ 28th 1891 
 tendent-General of Education in the Transvaal from 1882 to 1887. 
 
 1858. Have you seen the points referred to this Commission for enquiry ? — Yes. 
 
 1859. Are you acquainted with the present system of education in this Colony, 
 and have you given it any attention ? — Formerly. 
 
 1860. Do you think the present system is a perfect one, from your knowledge? — 
 I could hardly say it was perfect. There could he some improvemi-nts. 
 
 1861. Do you know anything about the attendance in Colonial schools ? — Yes. 
 While I was Superintendent-General of Education in the Transvaal, I got reports 
 from the office here, and it always struck me that the attendance was irregular 
 here. I used to compare it with that in Natal, the Free State, and the Transvaal. 
 I found that our attendance in the Transvaal was much better; the average 
 number absent at inspection of schools was 13 per cent. I may say that we have not 
 got fixed salaries. We have an aided system, and merely give a subsidj-, according to 
 the number of pupils and the standard ox education. The Government in the Trans- 
 vaal pay a Quid pro quo, according to the work done. There is no sub.'iidy for every 
 pupil who does not attend 15 full days in a month or 50 in a quarter, and we found in 
 om- returns that only three to six per cent, failed to attend regularly. I attribute our 
 more regular attendance to this principle, because it is the business of the teacher to 
 see that the attendance is kept up, otherwise the subsidy is lost. 
 
 1862. Have you any mission schools in the Transvaal ? — No. 
 
 1863. Have you ever compared the schools in the Transvaal with our undenomi- 
 national schools Y — I have taken mission and undenominational schools together. 
 The schools in the Transvaal get their pay quarterly. They send in quarterly returns, 
 with the attendance, but no subsidy is paid for those scholars who do not attend 
 regularly, as I have already explained. 
 
 1864. Mr. linu-an.l They do not get any general grant such as in tliis Colony ; it 
 is paymant by results ?■ — Yes. 
 
 1865. Chairman.'] Did that system answer well in the Transvaal ? — In regard to 
 attendance it did. 
 
 18(56. Did not you ever find any imposition practised ; I mean such as putting 
 down the names of children when they did not attend ? — The School Board has to 
 certify. 
 
 1867. Mr. Rowan.] Was this principle carried out right through the Transvaal ; 
 were all the schools aided in this way ? — Yes. There is just one State .«chool — the 
 High School. 
 
 1868. But the schools were under some Board or Committee, were they not ? — 
 Decidedly. 
 
 1869. Consisting of more than one member ? — Yes ; more than one. 
 
 1870. How were these members elected?— By the public to all intents and pur- 
 poses. The Government only gave a subsidy. 
 
 1871. Supposing there was a school in any particular town, could another school 
 be opened in the same town and on the same principles ? — Certainly. 
 
 1872. Without enquiring whether it was requii'ed or not ? — Yes. 
 
 1873. Bean Hofmes.] Supposing that not sufficient schools existed for the require- 
 ments of a place, could Government step in and order a school to be estabUshed ?— No. 
 They go upon the principle that it is the business of parents to fouml schools, and 
 the Government assists, and pays for the work done. 
 
 1874. Mr. Rowan. Was the expense more or less under that system ?— I found it 
 was the cheapest system. Before the annexation of the Transvaal, at the time of Uie 
 old Republic, education cost as much as £11 per pupil per year, whereas in the Free 
 State it was as much as £13 not very long ago. That is the whole cost, meUuIing 
 administration. 
 
 1875. That is exclusive of what the parent paid ?— Yes. I am speaking of what 
 the Government paid. At the time of the occupation, two systems were followed— one 
 was the system of a subsidy, and the other. Government schools at fixed salaries. These 
 Government schools were very high in their charge : the.>- had to give rather good 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] S
 
 132 
 
 Krt. S. J.iiu Tnt. salaries for able teachers, and the attendance was rather small. I cannot give the exact 
 ¥eh. iHth 1891. figures. The aided or subsidised schools answered so much better, that acting upon a 
 report of Ur. Lyell, I resolved to adopt that system, and reduced the cost per pupil 
 considerably. Dr Lyell's report was never published, but I found a copy in the Educa- 
 tion Office. I find that in Natal, in 1887, they paid for Groveruraont schools with fixed 
 salaries for teachers, as much as £7 5s. per pupil, and for aided or subsidised schools, 
 £3 Ss. I do not know what it is now. 
 
 1876. Are you aware of the expense to the State of each child in our Colony ? — 
 No ; not at present. Formerly it was very low. 
 
 1877. Dean Holmes.'] Have you compulsory education in the Transvaal? — No. 
 We have rather the otlier extreme — purely voluntar}'. 
 
 1878. Mr. Iloimii.'] Do your school committees in the Transvaal erect buildings 
 themselves, or does the Government erect thom Y — A school is started by private enter- 
 prise, but sometimes by a special grant of the Volksraad, an erf is given, and a subsidy. 
 
 1879. In whom are the buildings vested, and to whom are they transferred? — I 
 think to the School Board. 
 
 1880. If it is a voluntary school the Board may not be permanent ? — That may 
 be so. 
 
 1881. How are the buildings vested, or suppose they are sold? — The Government 
 never claims a school building ; it considers it a private enterprise, belonging to the 
 public. A subsidy is given, which is looked upon as a grant to the public for educa- 
 tional purposes. 
 
 1882. Ei'v. Coetzee.j From your experience and knowlorlge would you think com- 
 pulsory education to a certain extent advisable ? — In the Transvaal I would never have 
 thought of compulsory education. I do not consider that it is a thing for our people. 
 We have a large native population. 
 
 1883. What would you suggest as a cure for irregularity of attendance ? — You 
 might encourage good attendauce by some system of reward, and deduct marks forbad 
 attendance I do not know that there is abetter stimulus. 
 
 1884. Would you be in favour of appointing what is called a truancy officer, to 
 visit houses and look after children loitering in the street and see that they went to 
 school ? — I would rather see the teachers themselves looking after tlio children. A 
 teacher may encourage attendance a good deal by persuasion. It makes a great deal 
 of difference where you only give a subsidy according to the attendance. If the 
 teacher has a fixed salary it does not make much difference. It is, so to speak, im- 
 material to the teacher whether a child comes or not. 
 
 1885. Dr. Bi'rrt/.] What percentage of children of a schoolable age attend schools 
 in the Transvaal ? — There is no census to give that. 
 
 188(i. Then the statement that children attend at the rate of 865 per cent, is no 
 guide to the condition of things in the Transvaal at all ? — It is only as far as children 
 are registered pupils ; we cannot say anything of tliose not on the roll. 
 
 1887. Your schools mainly being private schools, it is reasonable to suppose that 
 they would be attended by the better class of children ? — It may be by children of 
 parents who take more interest in education. 
 
 1888. (If course the children of such parents are alwaj's more regular in atten- 
 dance than the children of those who do not see the value of education, are they not ? 
 — Of course, the parents make a sacrifice, and they would be supposed to see that their 
 children attend better. 
 
 1889. Dean Ho/me.i.'] You say tliat the Gcvernment in the Transvaal gives a 
 subsidy for the erection of buildings ; suppose a school building ceases at any time to 
 be used for school purposes what guarantee has the Government for getting back its 
 money : what steps do the}' take ? — As long ns the school continues, it is the property 
 of the school. As a rule, the erven are transferred to the School Bonrd. 
 
 1890. But what if the School Board is discontinued ? — I do not think that (question 
 has ever really arisen. 
 
 1891. Mr. liowtvi.] What is the medium of instruction in the Transvaal, Dutch 
 or English ? — Dutch. 
 
 1892. As you have a mixed population, English and Dutch, what provision is made 
 for English ? — It is optional. 
 
 1893. Are English boys attending school forced to learn Duteli, or is it optional ? 
 — They are supposed to learn Dutch. 
 
 1894. So that we can lake it Dutch is practically compulsory in the Transvaal ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 1895. Dr. Berry.] At public schools? — Yes; subsidised schools. At the time 
 when this school law I am speaking of was in operation, between 1882 and 1887, the 
 English sjieaking part of th(> |)opulation was comjinratively small ; only a few in the 
 villages chiefiy, now it is different, and before I left office, I stated that the populatioi^
 
 133 
 
 of the country was changing every day, and I thought tliat provision would have to be ^"■- •"•' J^" T""''- 
 made to meet the emergency. It is not a fixed poiiuLation, but a jiopuhitiou springing j.^^ ^^ 
 up very suddenly. So far the medium of instmction has been the Dutch language, with * ' • * • 
 English optional. 
 
 1896. I believe you have been for a short time in the Transvaal since your last 
 trip to Europe ? — Yes. 
 
 1897. Had you control of the Education Department then ? — I did not accept 
 office again. 
 
 1898. Have any changes taken place in the school laws since you were Minister 
 of Education ? — Yes ; a few. 
 
 1899. Not radical changes? — Not with regard to language. 
 
 1900. Rev. Coetzee.] Is not English compulsory in the Transvaal, when children 
 have reached a certain standard r* — No. English is optional all through, only Dutch 
 is the medium of instruction. 
 
 1901. Mr. Ro/ran.~\ Is that so even in teaching English ? — That is a question of 
 accommodation. Here in this Colony you have an English speaking population and a 
 Dutch speaking population. At the time I refer to in the Transvaal, the English were 
 the mercantile part of the population, and they knew Dutch as well, being daily in 
 communication with the farming population. There was practically no difficulty. 
 
 1902. liev. lloon-ccs.'j I understand you that the circumstances were not pai-allel 
 between the Transvaal and this Colony at that time ? — No. 
 
 1903. Chairman.'] Have you ever studied the question from a colonial point of 
 view ? — Certainly. 
 
 1904. Do you know what facilities are afforded for learning the Dutch language 
 in our present system of education ? — In the main, yes. 
 
 1905. Do you think that Dutch should be provided for in the Elementary 
 examination ? — If we go upon the principle that both languages are acknowledged for 
 educational purposes, they should be put on an equality in examinations. 
 
 1906. Are you aware that in the Elementary examination no provision is made 
 for Dutch, although provision is made in all other examinations. What is the tendency 
 of this in regard to the study of Dutch in schools Y — A pupil would not have an incen- 
 tive to study Dutch as well as English if he does not see any benefit in regard to the 
 examination. 
 
 1907. Rer. Moorrees.'] You have had a good deal of experience in educational 
 matters ; take an English boy and a Dutch boy, and let them both study English, 
 which of the two would have the advantage ? — The English boy decidedly. 
 
 1908. So that the Dutch boy would ha more or less handicapped in competing 
 with the English boy ? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 1909. Do you think that in a country like this it is necessary to know both 
 languages ? — Certainly. 
 
 1910. Have you ever, in your capacity in the Transvaal, found that Colonial men 
 could not be appointed, for the want of knowing the Dutch language properly ? — Very 
 often ; a great many Colonial young men, who have even passed examinations, are not 
 sufficiently versed in Dutch. 
 
 1911. Do yoii think that in examinations, Dutch ought to be placed on the same 
 level with foreign languages, or ought it to be acknowledged as one of the languages 
 of the country ? — I thought it was an acknowledged principle that there are two 
 European languages in this country — Dutch and English. 
 
 1912. In assigning marks, you would not put Dutch on a level with a foreign 
 language, would you ?— Certainly not. 
 
 1913. Do you think there is a desire among the Colonial population for instruction 
 n both languages ? — Yes, it is increasing ; and I have found from an educational point 
 
 of view, that the study of the two languages is very beueficial. I have noticed, 
 according to the latest works on education, that that is the experience in other places 
 as well. The comparative study of grammar is very beneficial, and the study of two 
 anguages simultaneously is not such a drawback to education as is sometimes thought. 
 
 1914. Mr. Rowan.'] Particularly if they are cognate languages? — Exactly so. 
 
 1915. Rer. Moorreex.'] You do not agree with the opinion we have heard expressed, 
 that the study of two languages is injurious to the thoroughness of education ? — Cer- 
 tainly not. In GeiTuany for example, the study of comparative grammar is taken up. 
 
 1916. Mr. Roican.'] Have you been in Belgium ? — Yes. 
 
 1917. Do you know that two languages — French and Flemish, prevail there? — 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1918. Do you know that of lato, equal rights have been granted for them. For- 
 merly, French was the language used in education ? — Not exactly eqiuil rights. They 
 got some privileges for the Flemish language, but they want something more. They 
 
 S *rf«
 
 134 
 
 kev.S.J.du TuU. are somewhat in the same state as we are at present here. But there is this diiferenoe 
 Feb 28th 1891 ''^ Belgium, that tlioy do not live so mixed up as wo do in this t^ountry. You have 
 
 the Flemish parts, such as Antwerp, Ghent, &c., where nearly all Flemish is spoken, 
 
 and at Lieges all French and Walloom. 
 
 1919. Reo. CoetzeeJ] Would you make Dutch compulsory for the Elementary 
 examination as well as English 'i — I do not think so. 
 
 1920. In what way would you deal with Dutch in the Elementary examination ? 
 — I would simply ])ut it on an equal footing with English. If one pupil wants an 
 examination in Dutch let him have it; if another wants to be examined in Englisli 
 let him have it ; and the same with the candidate who wants to take both languages. 
 
 1921. Didu IIolincs.'\ Do you think you would find examiners sufficiently com- 
 petent to examine in both languages ? — I think there would bo no dilficulty. 
 
 1922. C/idii man.'] The School Elementary examination hiys down five subjects 
 for examination : the English language, including writing passages from dictation ; 
 parsing of words ; etymology ; analysis of sentences ; and English composition. Sup.- 
 pose tht-re are two boys, one taking only Eugli-sh subjects, and the other taking Dutch 
 in addition, would you give him additional marks for the Dutch i' — I think that is 
 fair. 
 
 1923. Bc/m Holmes.^ To make it fair all round, would you give another boy, if 
 ho ojfered himself in some other language, the same advantage ? — I do not think the 
 two things are equal ; it would not be the language of the country, as Dutch is. 
 vienuan, for instance is not considered as the language of the country. 
 
 1924 Br. Borri/.~\ You recognize a difference between encouraging the language 
 of the country and language as a means of culture ? — Yes. 
 
 1925. Is not Kafir a language of the country!:' — Yes, certainly. 
 
 1926. Would you allow a candidate who presented himself for examination in 
 Kafir, similar marks 'f — Kafir is not a language that you would encourage, not a 
 recognized language as Dutch and EngUsh. 
 
 1927. There are a million people in South Africa who think it is a language that 
 should be encouraged ; is it not fair that we should equally consider their interests 
 from this exaniinaticju point of view if I may so call it 'f — You would not consider it 
 us advancing civilization by putting Kafir side by side \vith European languages. 
 
 1 928. It is supjiosed that linguistic proficiency is always a means of advancing 
 civilization, i.s it not r* — I do not consider the cases equal at all. I would give marks for 
 t!ie Kafir language as a language ; Dutch and English are the admitted languages 
 of th'- country, but not Kafir, as far as I am aware. If a Kafir, over and above the 
 Dutch and English, passes the examination in his mother tongue, he should get marks. 
 
 1929. And the same with German ? — Yes; after passing in the two admitted 
 languages of the country. 
 
 1930. Ber. Coefsee.'\ By making Dutch optional in the Elementary examination, 
 would that be sufficient inducement under present circumstances, for scholars to study 
 tlu; Dutch language Y — It woidd be a great inducement if they get marks for it. 
 
 1931. ('//airmail.^ One of the questions which the Commission have to consider 
 is, what additional f.acilities can be provided to meet the wants of the children of the 
 agricultural population ; have you studied that question Y — I thiidi the system of 
 subsidy, as prevails in the Transvaal, is the only practical solution to meet the wants of 
 a .scattered farm popidation. There, you do not require any fixed number of children. 
 If there are only half a dozen, Government can give a subsidy pro rata, according to 
 the number of pupils and the standard of education. It involves a little more adminis- 
 tration of course, and a little more inspection, but it brings education to every man's 
 door practically ; and I found that in the Transvaal the farming population make 
 better use even of the opportunities offered than the village population. When I came 
 there in 1882, there were 9 village schools and 34 ward schools ; in fact, I started 
 most of thf m myself. In 1887 tliere were 16 village schools and 100 ward schools. 
 
 1932. Mr. Botran.^ Are you acquainted with Sir Langhsun Dale's system of sub- 
 eidizing piivate schools on fanus Y — No ; not with the latest regulations. 
 
 1933. Sir Lnngham Dale aids these schools by certain grants ; for each pupil £1 
 is given if the teacher is unc-ertificated, and £2 if the teacher is certificated, and then 
 an allowance for each child according as he passes in the different standards. Do j-ou 
 think that a good system ? — It seems to tend in the right direction, but the subsidy 
 seems rather iow. 
 
 1934. Ai-e you acquainted with the system of circuit schools ? — I do not think 
 they answered in the Free State. I am not acquainted with the system in this Colony. 
 
 1935. Chairman.^ Have you any other recommendation you would like to oiferto 
 the Comnassion Y — With regard to education for the rural population, I do not think 
 there is a better way than by subsidising schools according to the number of pupils and 
 the standard attained.
 
 135 
 
 1936. Do you think it advisable to do away with the present arrangement for -S*"- S. J. du ToU. 
 Boards of Management and guarantors, and substitute some body mth more per- p^,^ ^^ i^^j 
 maueuoy and with perpetual succession ":* — It depends upon what other means are 
 proposed. There are always ways and means for improvement, but there may be 
 alteration without improvement. 
 
 19o7. It has been recommended by the Commission which sat in 1879 to substi- 
 tute Educational Boards for each district, nominated by the ratepayers, in place of the 
 present Boards of Management ? — I do not think in the Transvaal that has been 
 tried. In England it has worked well so far, but it is very expensive. Such Boards 
 must have power to act, and they often incur large expenses. In some parts of 
 England the school rate is very excessive. 
 
 193S. Supposing that such an Educational Council should be established, would it 
 be advisable to have it elected by the ratepayers r* — The ratepayers may not be men 
 interested in education ; there is the diftioulty. In time it might auswer. 
 
 1989. Do you think the general public in the country would desire to have such 
 Boards elected ; would they not prefer working under the present arrangement ? — 
 Yes ; I think so. 
 
 1940. Do you think they would be willing to submit to direct taxation for school 
 purposes ? — There would certainly be some feeling against it. 
 
 1941. Dr. Berri/.'\ Do you think anj'thing is necessary to be done in this 
 country to lower to parents the cost of giving a sound education to their children ; in 
 other words, are the fees, in your opinion, at the denominational public schools high or 
 low V — I do not think the fees are too high as far as I know. 
 
 1942. Are you acquainted with the cost of education to the parents in Cape Town, 
 where education is mainly conducted through the means of private schools ? — Not at 
 present. 
 
 1943. Would you be surprised to learn that a parent earning a salary of £250 or 
 £300 a year cannot put his girl of nine or ten years of age to a fairly good school in 
 Cape Town under a cost of £10 a year in fees r* — Good education costs a great deal in 
 every coimtry in the world. 
 
 1944. There are many countries where it does not cost anything like that sum. 
 In Scotland the same education would not cost more than 3Us. or £2 a year 'i — But 
 everything is cheaper in that country. 
 
 1945. Not in that proportion ; not five times as dear, is it i* — Taking everything into 
 consideration, I do not know that anything could be done to lower the cost of educa- 
 tion in Cape Town, as far as I am acquainted with present circumstances, after a long 
 absence from the Colony. 
 
 /. J. O'Reilly. 
 
 Cape Town, Monday, March 2, 1891. 
 
 Sir J. D. Barry (President), 
 T. P. Theron, Esq. I Eev. Moorrees. 
 
 Dean Holmes. | Rev. Coetzee. 
 
 A. N. Rowan, Esq. | Dr. Berry. 
 
 Rev. J. J. O'Bcilli/ examined. 
 
 1946. President.'] What is your position in the Roman Catholic Church i* — I am ^^ 
 priest in charge at Wynberg. _ ' ' 
 
 1947. Ai-e you in any way connected with education ? — I am, to this extent only Maroh ind, 1891. 
 — that I am secretary to the Most Rev. Dr. Leonard, who is manager of the Roman 
 
 Catholic Government-aided Schools in the Western Province. I keep the statistics, 
 record the expenditm-e on these schools, correspond with the Education Office concern- 
 ing the appointment of new teachers, and so on. 
 
 1948. llow many mission schools have you aided by Government ? — We have 
 four mission schools in Cape Town and eight outside of Cape Town, besides the Deaf 
 and Dumb Institute in Cape Town, and the District Boarding School at Pelia. In all, 
 fourteen trovernment-aided schools in the Western Province, of which twelve are mission 
 schools. 
 
 1949. How many children are there in your schools ? — In all our fourteen 
 Government-aided schools, we had on the books, during the year eudcil 30th of June 
 last, an average of 1,429 children, of these 1,375 were on the books of the twelve 
 mission schools. 
 
 1950. Is that throughout the Colony ?— No, there axe twelve mission sohoola in 
 the Western Province, besides one Deaf and Dumb Institute and one Boarding School
 
 136 
 
 Rev. In Namaqualiind. Tlie mission suliools are at St. John's-street, Hope-street, Somerset 
 
 J. J. O'Rtiiiy. Y^.onA, Sir Li. wry Uoa-l, Cape Town; and at Salt River, Rondoboseh, Wynberg, Kalk 
 J>':irch2nd, 1891. Bay, Oudtslioorn, George, Mossel Bay; and Springbokfontein. Namaqualaud. 
 
 1951. What is the largest amount that you get in the way of Government aid ? — 
 We got £75 a year for a school in which there are three teanhers. It is supposed to 
 be £''iO for the first teacher, £30 for the second, and £15 for an assistant. 
 
 1952. You get no more '^ — No more for teachers' salaries. For 26 pupil teachers 
 we received during the year ended 30th of June last £340 10s., their cost being £489 
 Ss., or an average of £15 each. For the year ending 30th June, 1.S90, according to a 
 return I make out for the Bishop, there were in the twelve mission schools 22 teachers 
 employed ; we received from the Government for those 22 teachers £668 15s., and 
 their actual cost was £1,470 13s. 7d. ; an average of £66 a year for each teacher. The 
 deficiency is contributed by the congregation, &c., &c. We could not possibly support 
 these teachers, were it not that, for the most part, they belong to Societies which are 
 bound by a vow of voluntary poverty, such as the Mai-ist Brothers and the Dominican 
 Sisterhood. It stands to reason tliat no ordinary lay teacher can live on £66 a year 
 in this Colony. Rent, repairs, taxes, insurance, furniture, books, itc, cost £1,377 
 68. 6d. for the fourteen schools, and the amo\int we received from the Government for 
 books and school fm-niture was £131 133. For miscellaneous expenditure we received 
 nothing from Government, and sjieut £207 13s. 2d. The total we received from the 
 Government for the twelve mission schools was £1,140 18s., and the total expenditure 
 was £3,544 188. 3d. 
 
 1953. Therefore you have to find £2,404 ? — Yes. 1,400 children were educated in 
 our schools, at a cost of 16s. a head to the State, and £2 3s. 7d. to the congregation, &c., 
 &c. Then there is the Deaf and Dumb Institute. One teacher receives £20 a year from 
 the Government and £70 from the congregation, and the rent, &c., comes to £39 2s. 3d. 
 
 1954. I understood you to say that £3,544 18s. 3d. was your total expenditure for 
 mission schools ; does that include the Deaf and Dumb Institute ? — No. 
 
 1955. And you received from the Government £1,140 ? — Yes, but not including 
 til'" Deaf and Dumb Institute. For that, the Government gives £140, and the total 
 cosl to the congregation is £234 2s. 3d, At Bella in Namaqualand, there is apublicboard- 
 ing school, with two teachers and assistants. The Government gives £80 towards 
 their salaries, but the actual salaries come to £160 ; rent, &c., £45 ; boarders, £246, 
 towards which Government contributes £60 : total received from the Government, 
 £140: total expenditure, £451. I make the total actual cost of our fourteen 
 schools, twelve mission schools, one Deaf and Dumb Institute, and one public board- 
 ing school £4,230 Os. 6d., and we receive from the Government £1,420 18s. Od. The 
 total school fees amount to £1,093 17s. 3d. Volimtary contributions £125 38. 4d. ; 
 Dominican Sisters £104 12s. 5d.; French Society in Namaqualand £240 ; Sale of 
 books, &c., £132 14s. 5d. ; Western Province Mission funds £1,112 15s. Id. That is 
 funds at the disposal of the Bishop and contributions from friends in other parts, not 
 collected in the country, unless anything is saved over from the Bishop's salary, or any 
 thiug of that kind. 
 
 1956. Then your expenditure on the 14 schools is £4,230 Os. 6d. and your income 
 from Government £1,420 18s., school fees £1,093 17s. 3d., leaving £1,715 5s. 3d., 
 which you have to make up from other sources i* — Yes, less the sale of books, £132 148. 
 5d., exactly £1,582 10s. lOd. 
 
 1957. That you make up from voluntary contributions and various sources ? — Yes. 
 19"8. Is the attendance regular in your schools ? — Yes, the attendance is very 
 
 fair indeed. I think that we compare favourably with anj- other schools in the Colony. 
 
 i9"'9 What is the percentage of attendance in proportion to the number on the 
 books? — There are 1,400 on the books, and 1,000 ordinary attendance; that is 71 per 
 cent. I may mention that you cannot possibly have the full percentage in attendance, 
 unless there were no changes during the quarter. You are bound by the rules to 
 mention the name on the books oE every child admitted during the quarter. About 
 300 children keep moving during the quarter, so that you could not have a higher 
 attendance than 1,100, and we get 1,000. 
 
 1 960. What checks have you to prevent irregularity of attendance in your schools J* 
 — The priests in charge of a district exercise their influence upon the parents, and we 
 give prizes to the children for regular attendance. In case of absence the teachers 
 enquire at once the cause of such abscnca. 
 
 19(51. Do you think that irregular attendance can be checked by any other means ? 
 — I really could not say. I have considered the question of appointing inspectors, but 
 I find one great objection is tliis, that you may get childi-en in the school who would not 
 listen to any teaching, children who might be vicious and immoral, with whom the others 
 would not as.->ociate. You might get this class crowded into our schools, and the parents 
 would naturally raise an objection.
 
 137 
 
 _ 1962. I suppose you recognize the duty of the State to see that aU children are Bev. 
 
 receiving some education. What ought to bo done in your opinion in cases where •'■ ■^- ^^"u- 
 children in the street are taken up for not attending any school 'r — It woidd be very March 2nd, 1891. 
 expensive, but I think that schools ought to be established for waifs and strays, 
 children who woidd be expelled from other schools. The idea of our church is that the 
 parents are responsible for the education of their children, and that unless the State 
 resolves itself into a paternal government, it is not obliged to force children to go to 
 school. 
 
 1963. Are there any voluntary associations such as yours, which would upon 
 terms undertake the instruction of such incorrigible children ? —I am not prepared to 
 answer that. I know there are such schools in Europe. 
 
 1964. I suppose some of these children are connected with your church, are they 
 not ? — Very likely, but very few. 
 
 1965. If so, do you see any means of dealing with them or aiding the Govern- 
 ment to deal with them ? — I would rather that question were put to a higher 
 authority in our church. As I said just now, there are such schools in many parts of 
 Europe (for instance DonBosco's Institute), which are very successful, and do an 
 immense deal of good in the way of gathering up the waifs and strays, and bring- 
 ing them into night-schools if they have any employment in the day, and so 
 gradually get hold of them altogether ; but I cannot possibly say that our congrega- 
 tion, which is very small, would be prepared to undertake a work of that kind. 
 
 1966. If certain areas were assigned to your church, and children within such 
 areas were brought to you by the truancy officer, would they undertake to receive 
 them upon any terms ?— The Bishop informs me that he will be prepared to undertake 
 the management of one such school in Cape Town, provided the Government guaran- 
 tees sufficient funds for its support. 
 
 1967. Out of the 1,400 children in your schools, how many are Roman Catholics 
 and how many are Protestants ? — The children in our schools who do not belong to our 
 body number about 744. 
 
 1968. Then in fact you are educating the children of Protestants at a monetary 
 loss ? — Yes. 
 
 1969. Why do you do so ? — In order to enable us to get the Government grant ; 
 we should not get the Government graut if our schools were altogether denominational. 
 The rules under which we get aid oblige us to admit well conducted children of what- 
 ever persuasion, whenever we have room for them. 
 
 1970. Do you think a system of compulsory education advisable ? — I think not ; 
 it would be enormously expensive. 
 
 1971. Putting the question of expense aside, do you think it would be resented 
 by the parents, if an attendance officer were to visit their houses, to see that the chil- 
 dren went to school, or do you prefer to leave the matter to the influence brought to 
 bear by your church, remonstrating with the parents, and so on 'f — I think some parents 
 would resent such interference, others would be very glad that their childien would be 
 prevented from loitering on the road, after having been sent to school. Judging by 
 the attendance in our schools, we are not particularly anxious for the appointment of 
 such officers. 
 
 1972. Mr. Tlieroii.'] Which class attends most regularly, the Catholic children or 
 the Protestants ? — Having consulted the teachers of the principal schools, I find that 
 the attendance of Catholic children is on the whole more regidar than that of the chil- 
 dren of other denominations. But I must repeat that the attendance of all the children 
 is exceptionally regular in oxvc mission schools. 
 
 1973. Bran Holmes.'] Have you considered the question of establishing fom-th 
 class pubhc undenominational schools ? — If the management be left in our own hands, 
 as in the mission schools, at present, we would be very glad to accept increased grants, 
 and we thiidi we are justly entitled to them. 
 
 1974. Mr. Theron.'] Are there many coloured children attending your mission 
 schools ? — We have very few coloured people belonging to our congregation, not more 
 than about 400 out of 4,000. Of course a great deal depends on what 3-ou mean by 
 " coloured." Many persons object to be call coloiu-ed, although they are not white. 
 The coloirred children who do attend are very slightly coloured, as a rule. 
 
 1975. President.^ Have you any Kafir children in your schools y — No. I believe 
 there was a Malay hoy. He was a very respectable lad and got on very well. 
 
 1976. Dr. Berri/.] How many pupil teachers have parsed the examination, and 
 how many are engaged in the work of teaching ? — As far as I can learn, at least t wenty 
 pupil teachers have obtained certificates. Sixteen are engaged in teaching, and four 
 teachers have retired; of these four boys obtained certificates and only one is now 
 engaged as a teacher. £66 a year, which is the average salary, is a very poor induce- 
 ment to hold out to a boy. At the Boai-d Schools in London, the male teachera receive
 
 138 
 
 ^f ■ an average of £280 n year, and the females £17(), and sometimes married couples get 
 
 ' " ^' joint salaries of £600 or £700 a yoar. In that caso, thoro is some inducement to become 
 
 March '2nd, 1891. a tcai lipr. I have often spoken to Sir Langhani Dale ahout the matter. You cannot 
 get male pupil teachers to remain ; they go into the Telegraph Office or something of 
 that kind, where they get better salaries. The}- even leave sometimes before their 
 contract ia out. 
 
 1977. Rev. Coctzfe.'] Wliat would you think of the jilan of giving what may be 
 called an attendance allowance in addition to the grant, in order to encourage regularity ; 
 would that operate beneficially '^ — I think it woiild be a very good idea. 
 
 1978. Rir. 3Io<irir(K. ] Would you be in favour of the proposed fourth class schools, 
 if the managers were elected by each ward or district 'f — No. 
 
 1979. What would be the difficulty? — It would amount to undenominational 
 education. 
 
 1980. 3rr Roinoi.] I am aware that the attendance at the Raman Catholic schools 
 is very good compared with other schools in town ; how do you ensure that regularity ? — 
 With regard to children belonging to our own denomination, there is the house to house 
 visitation of the priests, and the enquiries of the teachers in reference to absent children. 
 I can hardly speak with reference to the children of other denominations, but I suppose 
 they like the schools, and they find them cheaper. 
 
 1981. Do you give any rewards to those children who attend regularly? — At 
 Wynberg I give a substantial prize every year to the pupil who attends most regularly, 
 because I consider it a most important thing for a school to secure regular attendance. 
 
 1982. Do you find that that plan answers well? — Fairly well; it causes the regular 
 scholars to be still more regular. 
 
 1983. Dr. Ri'n-i/.~\ Are there any gardens attached to your schools, or is there any 
 training in manual work given? — I have not visited all the schools, and therefore 
 cannot say. 
 
 1984. But as far as you know in Cape Town ? — There is no gymnasium, only a 
 space to play in, but no industrial training is given. There may be at Pella in 
 Namaqualand, and at George too, for anything I know. I cannot answer for any school 
 except Wynberg. 
 
 1985. President. '\ Have j'ou anything to do with the children of employes on the 
 railway ? — I have been five years travelling on the railway, and I think that schools 
 might be established at convenient intervals along the line. The Government grant 
 should be given, and also a free pass for the children to attend. In cases where there 
 are children of different denominations, the conscience clause should be introduced. 
 
 1986. Do you understand the present system of Boards of Management ? — With 
 regard to our own schools, all school buildings are vested in the Bishoji for the time 
 being having jurisdiction, and his successors in office, so that we never have any trouble 
 in the matter at all. 
 
 1987. Is that the case with all your aided schools ? — I cannot attempt to answer 
 for the Eastern Province. It is the case in the Western Province. 
 
 1988. Have you any opinion to offer as to instruction in English and Dutch ? — No. 
 I think oiu- congregaUon would object altogether to Dutch teaching. We have no 
 Dutch congregation at all, we teach English. Our people are either English, Scotch, 
 or Irish. 
 
 1989. Do any of the children attending your schools belong to the Dutch Reformed 
 Church ? — Very few. 
 
 1990. Bpfiii Ho/mes.'] You think there is no desire to have Dutch taught? — No, 
 not in the Roman Catholic schools. 
 
 1991. Pri'-si(lenf.~\ Is there any other suggestion you have to offer? — I think 
 schools might be established for the waifs and strays. There are such schools in France 
 and elsewhere, and the teachers undertake the work as a labour of love. That, however, 
 is a matter that should be submitted to the Bishop. 
 
 1992. Are there in your opinion many chiklren outside the books who ought to be 
 enrolled ? — Very few of our own. 
 
 1993. What precentage is not on the books, of children who ought to be at 
 school ? — I cannot say. They must be very few if living in the neighbourhood ot a 
 Catholic schools. As to further suggestions on my part, I must respectfully suggest, 
 that some one holding a more responsible position, and having had more experience of 
 the working of the schools in our Chiirch, be sent for and examined. I may also add 
 that the grants in aid to many of our mission schools, are altogether inadequate. 
 Witness 8t. Aloysius' Roman Catholic Mission School, with its constant attendance of 
 close on 300 boys, receiving only £75 per aumira, an amount that would be granted 
 were there only 75 on the rolls. St. Bridget's Mission School, in Hope Street, St. 
 Patrick's, in Somerset Road, are also instances.
 
 139 
 
 Professor Nicolaas Mansvelt examined. fro/ettor 
 
 1994. President.'] You live at Steilenbosch, I believe ? — Yes. 
 
 1905. And you are professor of modern languages and history at the college March 2nd, 1891. 
 there ? — Yes. 
 
 1996. Have you seen the questions which this Commission has to consider? — Yes. 
 
 1997. What is your opinion about the irregularity of attendance of children at 
 school ? — I can hardly ventm-e an opinion on that point. It is a matter that requires 
 very careful consideration. I do not think you can introduce anj^thing like compul- 
 sory education in the country. 
 
 1998. What further facilities do you think can be afforded for giving instruction 
 in both the English and Dutch languages ? — The present facilities are certainly in- 
 adequate, especially in the lower classes. The time devoted to Dutch in the higher 
 classes is sufficient, provided the pupils begin at an earlier stage. 
 
 1999. In the lower schools what time is given to Dutch ? — In the college three 
 hours a week, this being I think the average time given to most subjects. In the 
 Grymnasium it is less — only two or two and a half hours ; and the senior class three 
 hours. My objection is, that teachers start at the wrong end. Instead of first training 
 the children and developing their minds through their mother tongue, they at once 
 commence to give instruction by means of a foreign medium — and by so doing, they 
 necessarilj' impede the progress of the child. In Steilenbosch, there is hardly one 
 child that does not understand Dutch. Even the children of my English colleagues 
 speak it as well as my own children ; so that in Steilenbosch there would be no objec- 
 tion to begin at the very first stage, and by so doing, the minds of the generality of 
 the chiklren would be better developed than is done at present. By this method a 
 child would leai-n*to read Dutch in about twelve months, and would be fit to take up 
 English, nor would it have the difficulty now experienced in acquiring the facility of 
 reading English. I have had experience among my own children. My eldest child 
 was conversant with both English and Dutch when he went to school. I systemati- 
 cally used to speak English with him, while his mother spoke in Dutch. I took the 
 trouble to teach him to read Dutch, and when he went to school he joined the English 
 class, and he was able to overtake children who had gone to school nearly a year before. 
 My second child, who also understood both Engli-sh and Dutch, I had no time to teach 
 to read Dutch, and that child, although certainly not less gifted than the other, took 
 fully two years or more before he began to see his way in En_glish. I therefore think 
 that it is highly detrimental to the progress of the majority of our children to begin 
 with a foreign medium, instead of first developing the mind, through the medium of 
 their mother tongue and thus preparing them for the acquisition of English. I am 
 not against teaching English by any means. Every parent should certainly desire to 
 have his childi-en instructed in both languages thoroughly, but it is in my opinion 
 wrong and unpedagogic to start school training through a foreign medium ; a number 
 of things must be lost to the child, and its progress retarded considerably. 
 
 2000. What would be the effect if an English child started to learn through the 
 foreign medium of Dutch ? — Speaking of places like Steilenbosch, I do not see any 
 objection to make an English child begin his school career through the medium of 
 Dutch, seeing that the few English children there understand Dutch sufficiently. 
 
 2001. You want to make an English boy think in Dutch, and let the Dutch boy 
 go on thinking in Dutch ? — Yes ; because then they would be more on a par. Most 
 Dutch children at Steilenbosch know Dutch and nothing else, whereas the children of 
 English parents generally know conversational Dutch, and if they have a sensible 
 teacher, would certainly be able to follow the instruction in Dutch. 
 
 2002. You mean to say that all children in Steilenbosch, Dutch and English, 
 would find it easier to be educated in Dutch ? — There would be less injury done than 
 there is now. At present the bulk of the children at Stellenboscli suffer, and are 
 wronged, through being compelled to receive their first instruction through a foreign 
 medium. There is aa amoimt of energy and time wasted, which might be prevented if 
 the medium of instniction for the first year or eighteen months were Dutch. 
 
 2003. Would not that energy be also wasted upon English children who happen 
 to be there ? — No. 
 
 2004. Why not ? — Because English children, as a rule, understand both lan- 
 guages. 1 he parents speak English in the family circle, and the children learu Dutch 
 from their playmates. 
 
 2005. Is it not the case that Dutch childi-eu imderstand both languages? — No; 
 they do not, as a ride. 
 
 2006. When I was at the Normal College school the other day. I asked the 
 childi-en what language they preferred to be taught in, and ihey said English. They 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] I
 
 140 
 
 P)-o/exmr 
 Xiiohas MamvcH 
 
 March 2nd, 1S91 
 
 were Dutch speakiug uhildreu too Y — That was in Cape Town, where so much more 
 Enf^lish is spokou, and besides, I do not think children aio able or competent to judge 
 what is best for them. 
 
 2007. Wlien I asked them the reason, tliey said that English was far easier, 
 is that your opinion ? — There is hardly a language which is simpler in its spelling 
 than Dutch. I am not speaking now of grammar ; English grammar may be easier 
 than Dutch, but Dutch spelling is as jjlionetie as any other language under the sun, and 
 at the first stage of teaching it is the spelling, and not the grammar of a language, that 
 lias to be dealt witli. 
 
 2008. Then the effect of what you say is this, that at Stellenbosch you would 
 educate children in Dutch, and then import English afterwards, as a foreign 
 language ? — Yes ; just as is done now in the case of Dutch. 
 
 2009. Ai-e you perhaps aware how the matter stands in other bi-lingual countries 
 like Belgiimi'r' — There they have the same difficulty, and, unless managers of schools are 
 able to supply parallel classes at the first start, the minority has to give in to the 
 majority. The Flemish children, if thoy are in a minority in a certain locality, have 
 to acquire the first elements of knowledge through the medium of French, but, if the 
 Flemish children are in the majority, it is reversed, and that would be the only way 
 here, unless managers could, as I say, supply parallel classes from the first start. 
 
 2010. What do you call parallel classes? — Two classes starting at the same point 
 and working towards the same object ; one in Dutch, one in English. 
 
 2011. You would have in the same school Dutch taught on one side and English 
 on the other ? — Yes, for the first 12 or 18 mouths. 
 
 2012. Would not that be an unfortunate thing to have two sets of education in 
 the country ? — I do not see it ; it would be only in a few places where the two 
 nationalities were equally strong. In other places the minority would have to suit 
 itself to the majority. 
 
 2013. It has been stated that in some schools where there are Dutch and English 
 children, both languages are used in the early stages, and the instruction is carried on 
 in the two, side by side, simultaneously ; do you think that a good system ? — It is 
 better than the present system certainly. 
 
 2014. Is it not better than what you propose? — I doubt it very much, because 
 the Dutch children, if they are not suificieutly acquainted with English conversation, 
 must bo the losers ; their development must bo impeded. Enghsh is a very difficult 
 language to learn, especfally when it is spoken to children who have not been bred in 
 it It is a language that depends on accents ; there are a large number of superfluous 
 syllables, and, unless a child is accustomed daily to hear the English language spoken, 
 it will catcli very little of whatever is said by the teacher. 
 
 2015. Dean Ilo/mcs.^ What kind of Dutch would you wish taught in the schools, 
 high Dutch or the common Dutch which is generally spoken here? — Proper Dutch. 
 
 2016. You say that most of the children know conversational Dutch before they 
 come to school ? — Yes ; common Dutch. 
 
 2017. Is it easier for a child who knows common Dutch to learn high Dutch 
 than for an English rhild ; are not the languages rather dissimilar ? — Y'"os ; they are 
 dissimilar. 
 
 2018. Therefore it is not such a great advantage for a child who knows common 
 Dutch beforehand to have Dutch as tiie mediiira of instruction, is it ? — There is a 
 considerable difference between Cape Dutch and high Dutch, but any qualified teacher, 
 although born in Ilolland, is better able to make himself understood by Cape children, 
 although he speaks grammatical Dutch, than ho would be understood by speaking 
 English. 
 
 2019. Do you think that a child who knows conversational Dutch would find it 
 easier to loarn good Dutch than an English child would ? — Decidedly. 
 
 2020. Mr. Tho-OH.'] Is there any provision made in the Elementary examination 
 for Dutch ? — None. 
 
 2021. Do you consider that that has been a drawback to the study of Dutch in 
 your schools ? — Decidedly. It has discoiuaged both teachers and managers from 
 devoting enough attention to Dutch, seeing that it is the general desire of children to 
 go up for this examination and only take those subjects that pay, as they say. It is a 
 great stumbling-block in our way, and if it were removed, it would make a great 
 difference. 
 
 2022. How would you propose to introduce Dutch in the Elementary examina- 
 tion ? — By giving an additional paper in Dutch. I would not be satisfied with that, 
 but it would be something towards removing the present complaint. I think that Cape 
 born children from Dutch families should be allowed to be examined in some subjects, 
 such as Cape -history and geography, either in Dutch or English, it would give the 
 Dutch child a great advantage. If Dutch was insisted upon for the Elementary
 
 141 
 
 examination, candidates would be better prepared in it when going up for the Higher I'rofettvr 
 examination. Xicolaat iiamteli. 
 
 2U23. In the Higher examination, Dutch is a subject, is it not ? — Yes. It stands March ^Ind, 1891. 
 on a par with all the other subjects, French. German, Latin, Greek, and so on, and 
 candidates arc at liberty to select. A few subjects are compulsory, such as English. 
 Dutch is not, but as a matter of fact, out of about 250 erndidates who went up last 
 year, fulh' 150 took Dutch. That would only leave 100 for French and Gennan, 
 which they probably did not all take, because a number of them took either Greek or 
 Latin, or some other subject instead. A number of those who do take Dutch have often 
 been working at it only for the last six or twelve months, and consequently find the 
 paper set for this examination rather difficult, especially as a number have never been 
 taught to read Dutch properly. 
 
 2024. How would you arrange at the Elementary examination ; would you have 
 the present papers translated into Dutch, and then let a boy choose which he will 
 take ? — -No ; I would be against that, because I think it is in the interest of Dutch 
 children to know English well, just as it would be a blessing to the Colony if English 
 children learned to understand their Dutch compatriots. 
 
 2025. How would you arrange the papers ; would you give Dutch as an extra 
 subject ? — Yes. I would put English and Dutch on a par, and have a paper in both 
 languages. I would have two papers on Cape historj and geography, for instance, 
 one in Dutch and one in English, and let the candidate select ; besides having an addi- 
 tional paper in Dutch. 
 
 2026. When you add Dutch, there would be six subjects, would there not ?— Yes. 
 
 2027. Six on one side and five on the other, the effect of which would be that the 
 boy who understands Dutch gets more marks, would it not ? Should not there be a 
 paper in French or Latin, as an equivalent, so that each candidate can score ? — I would 
 not have any great objection to putting French or German on a par with Dutch, but I 
 would not include Latin. For those intending to ga in for higlier studie.«, Latin may 
 be an advantage ; but for the bulk of children it is a comparatively useless subject, 
 detracting from the general training. I think there are many more desirable subjects 
 to take up for the generality of children. 
 
 2028. Do you consider the Elementary examination necessary at all ? — I do not 
 think that we have reached the stage when ^ve can dispense with the examination. I hope 
 that time will come ; but it has done considerable good in creating .in interest in edu- 
 cation where none existed before. 
 
 2029. Do not you think more especially in country schools that it has an evil effect 
 in this way, that the teacher's energies are devoted to working up one class at the ex- 
 pense of the rest of the school ? — Yes ; that is just my objection, that it tends t(j unsettle 
 the work and injure the majority of the pujiils. Attention is centred upon tiie few 
 candidates who are going up ; still, under present circumstances, I think the examina- 
 tion is indispensable. 
 
 2030. You hope it will be done away with some day ? — Yes. 
 
 2031. This Elementary examination is conducted by the University authorities, is 
 it not ?— Yes. 
 
 2032. Why was Dutch left out ? — I cannot say. 
 
 2033. Has any correspondence ever taken place between jour College and the 
 University on the subject ^-No, not as far as I .am .aware. 
 
 2034. Have the Stellenbosch First-class Public School authorities ever coii:muni- 
 cated with the University on the subject ?- -I cannot say. 
 
 2035. In the interest of Elementary education in this Colony, considering the 
 present stage at which it has arrived, you think it would be a good thing to start an- 
 other subject in the Element.ary examination Y — If you mean Dutch, I fully believe it 
 would. I believe there is a good deal of supeificial varnish laid on our children under 
 the present system ; and the instruction imparted is never thoroughly digested by a very 
 large number. 
 
 2030. Wh.at do you look upon as " varnisii "? — Some years back I taught both at 
 the First-class PubKc School at Stellenbosch and in the Arts Department, and I had 
 to "ive instruction in Dutch from the lowest class upwards ; and I have often been 
 astonished at the ignorance of the boys in the lower classes whij had been taught through 
 the medium of English. They used big words which they did. not understand, and 
 when I questioned them on the meaning they had no idea about them. They had just 
 learned the words like p.arrots, but they had never realised their meaning or sense, and 
 I have often thought what a pity it was th.at these bojs had not first been taught to 
 read in Dutch, so that their minds would have been capable of grasping the subject 
 throuo-h the natural medium in which they had been taught to think. L>t late yeai-s I 
 hixve only tauaht lads who had passed the School Higher or an equivalent examina-
 
 142 
 
 Proffsior tion, but even among those I have known cases of boys who, after spending so many 
 
 Nieolaas ifantrelt. yg^j.g ^^ school, on becoming farmers, would lin vo become very mvuh better men. and their 
 
 Maroli'2^, 1891. judgment woidd have been maturer, if they had been taught through the medium of 
 
 Dutch instead of under the system they received their instruction in. A great deal of 
 
 external varnish was put on, which never penetrated ; it was not eilucufion — leading 
 
 out the mind, but simply instilling somethiTig. 
 
 20-57. Does not this varnish ai)])ear in the College also? — Yes; but the students 
 there have been drilled so long that they at last have acquired sufficient knowledge of 
 English to take in the matter. 
 
 20-'38. Woidd not what you are referring to be rather a defect in primary educa-. 
 tion ? — The fault does not lie so much in tin,' manner as in the medium of instruction. 
 I call It varnish, because they have an outward show of learning; but they are not 
 really educated. 
 
 203i). And is it not owing to defective primary education ? — Yes ; it is, inso- 
 much as the wrong means are used. 
 
 2040. Do not j'ou think you are likely to increase the defectiveness of primary 
 education if you introduce another subject into the early years of a boy's training? — 
 But Dutch is not an alien subject to most children in this Colony. 
 
 2011. We are told that about four per cent of the boys who go to school in this 
 country, reach the fourth stantlard of education, that is to say, about four jier cent, of 
 them remain four or five years at school, and they do not come very young either to 
 school in many cases ; do you think it advisable to burden the primary education of 
 this country with another subject such as Dutch, under these eircum.stances ? — If Dutch 
 were an alien subject, I should agree with you. What I want is not to introduce 
 another subject, but to use the natural medium of thought of the majority of our 
 children in most places for the proper development of their mind, the more so seeing 
 that their school time is .so short, and that they cannot afford to lose a great paitef 
 their precious time in grap])ling with the difficulties of a foreign medium at the fir.st 
 stage of their school training. 
 
 2042. But to a very large number of boys it will bo another subject, will it not ? 
 — I think it is desirable for the sake of the country and the real education of the 
 people, that they shoidd be taught through the medium that they understanii, their own 
 medium of thought. 
 
 2048. To a large multitude that would be English, would it not? — I doubt it. 
 
 2044. Say that the population is equally divided ? — Then why should one half be 
 injured for the sake of the other half ? 
 
 2045. But if you make Dutch compulsory, you increase the educational defective- 
 ness of the other half who are English, do j'ou not ? — I do not propose to make it 
 compulsory. 
 
 2046. If you make it a subject that carries equal marks, you make it practically 
 compulsory. Would not the result be that every candidate going up for the Ele- 
 mentary examination would take Dutch ? — Yes ; I would hope so. 
 
 2047. And would not the result of that be to increase the defectiveness of Ele- 
 mentary training, seeing that only four per cent, go beyond the Elementary stage ? — I 
 do not think so. I think that the majority, who are at present Dutch-speaking 
 children, would be vastly benefited by it, and that the minority would not suffer much 
 by taking Dutch, for as a rule, I think they understand a sufficient (juantity of col- 
 loquial Dutch ; and though they might devote their principal energies to English, they 
 might without detriment to themselves or their studies, devote a little attention to D>itch. 
 At ]ilacos like Graham's Town and King William's Town it might be a little hard perhaps. 
 
 2048. Dr. Berry. '\ Do I understand you to plead for the introduction of Dutch 
 into the Elementary examination on the ground of equity to children whote mother 
 tongue is Dutch ? — That is my point. 
 
 2049. Then how about those whose mother tongue is another language, say 
 German. There is a large number of boys and girls in some parts (jf the country of 
 German parentage ; would you have German introduced into the Elementary examin- 
 ation ? — Unfortunately the world is ruled by the majority. I do not say the majority 
 is always in the right, but one cannot make provision for every language and every 
 special case. 
 
 2050. Kafirs are in the majority in this country ; would their language come in 
 for fair play too ? — Ciuality must be taken into consideration as well as quantity. 
 
 2051. Kafir is held to be a very fine language ; at all events it is officially recog- 
 nized in this country as a subject of examination, in the Teachers' Examination for the 
 third-class certificate. Is the Kafir language to be ignored ? — That becomes a political 
 question. 
 
 2052. We are not here as a political commission. You plead for the Dutch as a 
 matter of fair play ; why should not Kafir have an equally good claim ? — I think it
 
 ! 
 
 143 
 
 would be for the benefit of the country if the Kafirs were kept in their planes, and they Professor 
 should not be put on a level with the white population. There is a vast difference ^""'"'^ Mam,-,lt. 
 between the two classes, and you cannot put a I>utch eliild on a level with a Kafir child. March 2nil, 1891. 
 
 20-Jo. What would you do with a Kafir boy who comes up for the Elementary 
 examination Y — Let him submit to the existing rfgulations. 
 
 2054. Have English and Dutch, and nothing else ; not allow his language to 
 count at all ? — No. 
 
 2055. En: Coetzce.'\ As far as your experience goes, has the study of the Dutch 
 language in the past always received the attention to which it is entitled ? — No. 
 
 2056. In youi- opinion would this to a certain extent account for the backward- 
 ness of the Dutch jjopulation, so far as mental development is concerned ? — Yes. I 
 believe that is the cause. 
 
 2057. And you consider it necessarj' that something should be done to encourage 
 the study of the Dutch language ? — Certainly. 
 
 2058. From your experience, would the study of the two languages at the same 
 time retard tlie progress of education or help it on ? — I do not think it would retard 
 it ; on the contrary, if taught properly it would advance education, for the knowledge 
 of one language would prove a help to the other. 
 
 2059. I suppose you are aware that some time back the Dutch language was alto- 
 gether ignored in this country, and it is only lately that steps have been taken to 
 advance the study of Dutch. Would not that account for its omission as a subject 
 in the Elementary examination ? — It is only now that people are becoming aware of 
 the disadvantages accruing from a neglect of the study of Dutch. 
 
 2060. Ton said that it might be a hardship for such places as Graham's Town and 
 King William's Town, and other English-speaking centres, if Dutch were added to the 
 subjects in the Elementary examination. On the principle of equity, considering that 
 half of the population is Dutch-speaking, and Graham's Town is only one place in the 
 Colony, where would be the hardship in allowing Graham's Town to lay down a rule 
 for half the white population, or for the greater majority to lay down a rule for 
 themselves ? — I grant that it might be considered somewhat of a hardship to Graham's 
 Town people to have to take up Dutch, but the wrong would not be so great as the 
 wrong we suffer at present. 
 
 2061. Taking into consideration the fact that the Dutch and English languages 
 are the languages of South Africa, would you extend equal rights to both ? — Certainly. 
 
 2062. Would you make Dutch optional in the Elementary examination r' — No; 
 I would consider it desirable to make it compulsory, both for Dutch children and for 
 English, for the sake of a better underistauding between the two nationalities of the 
 countiy ; but I would not object to some sortof compromise such as has been suggested, 
 namely, to introduce French or German as alternative subjects. 
 
 2063. You are aware that in the Higher examinations Greek is optional ?- Yes. 
 
 2064. Would you have Dutch dealt with in the Elementary examination in the 
 same way as Greek in the Matriculation r* — Yes. 
 
 2065. Bcv. Moonros.'] Which would you consider the more English-speaking 
 place. Cape Town or Stellenbosch ? — Cape Town. 
 
 2066. So that, as a rule, boys in Cape Town would know much more English than 
 Stellenbosch boys, would they not ? — I certainly think so. 
 
 2067. Do you consider that boys who have been taught mostly in English are fair 
 judges of the comparative facility with which the two languages can be acquired, 
 English and Dutch ?— No. 
 
 2068. You have had experience of boys coming to you from other schools, do you 
 find that the Dutch generally taught in our schools is thorough ?— No ; there is a great 
 want in that respect, and that partly accounts for tlie objection raised bysome children 
 to Dutch. So far as one can make out from results, all that is done is to teach the 
 grammar, instead of bringing children into contact with the language itself, making 
 them rightly understand it. and giving them facilities for expressing themselves. 
 Teachers often just limit the instruction in Dutch to gerund grinding, which is suffi- 
 cient to disgust any child, and seeing that the English language has comparatively 
 little grammar, it is naturally preferred, especially after a child has learned to read 
 English, and has forgotten all the sorrows and anxieties it has had to go tlirough before 
 it could manage it. When some knowledge of English has been attained, it is com- 
 paratively simply compared with Dutch, but the greatest difficulty is the first stage._ 
 
 2069. You are aware that in most schools among the Dutch-speaking population 
 Dutch is taught now? — Yes. 
 
 2070. So that there would be no necessity for introducing a new subject, only it 
 must be more tlioroughly taught ?— Yes ; a child must be made to feel tliat Dutch is 
 not a bugbear, or something in the natm-eof a dispensable appendix. In Stellenbosch, 
 for instance, children begin to learn Dutch only after they have learned to read English
 
 144 
 
 Fro/essor 
 ytvolaas Mitusveit. 
 
 March 2iid,_lS91 
 
 sufficiently; but then, as soon as they come to the Elementary examination, 
 where Dutch is not required, the subject is entirely dropped and set aside for a 
 time, and that is detrimental to the jirogress of the children, and also to their ajiprecia- 
 tion of the subject. They begin to look on Dutch as something superfluous, and this 
 accounts for the disregard which children who have been educated in English hold 
 Dutch in. 
 
 21171. From your experience with your own children, does a knowledge of Dutch 
 facilitate acquiring English ? — Yes. I am fully convinced of that. 
 
 2(*72. You said just now that in most of the schools among tiie Dutch-speaking 
 population, Dutch is taught as a subject ; docs not that give a tremendous advantage to 
 boys in an English-speaking place who have no such additional subject ? — Of course 
 boys who do not take up a second language can devote all their attention and energy 
 to a prescribed number of subjects ; they have the advantage there. If a boy at the 
 Elementary examination did not choose to take up Dutch, he would be able to devote 
 much more attention to other subjects. 
 
 20~'6. Mr. liourni.^ I believe you have been engaged in teaching Dutch for a very 
 long time. When you commenced Dutch teaching in the Colony, was the same 
 interest taken in the language as now Y — No. 
 
 2074. To what do you ascribe this increased interest in Dutch ? — I think in the 
 first place it is because Dutch now counts for so much in various examinations, and 
 also because so many of our young men find their way to the Transvaal and tiie Free 
 State, where a knowledge of the language is required. Most of ray students, if they 
 do not afterwards go in for theological study, contemplate becoming either civil servants 
 or teachers in the Kepublics. Then in the next place, a kind of revival has Taken place 
 in the feeling of the people. Many students whom I know have commenced to learn 
 Dutch at a late stage, as they take a genuine interest in the language itsi'lf, and 
 consider it their mother tongue. The increased interest in Dutch may therefore be 
 accounted for both from a material and sentimental point of view. 
 
 2075. In your college proper do all the students take Dutch? — Yes. There is 
 not one exception. 
 
 2076. Do they take no other language, French or German ? — .Some take German 
 in addition. 
 
 2077. But they all take Dutch ?— Yes. 
 
 2078. Do you find an}' difficulty in arranging the Dutch studies, so as not to 
 interfere with English Y — I find it diiHcxdt to make my classes work abreast, especially 
 so in the intermediate class, where there are many students from other places who have 
 not had the same advantages, and have done little to the study of Dutch, and then fall 
 in with my own students who have gone through a regular training. I find that a 
 number of the students coming from other places are verj' deficient ; they only begin 
 to learn Dutch after they have matriculated ; and sometimes they take a liking to the 
 subject. There is one student at present working for the 15. A. examination, who 
 declares that he knew nothing of Dutch till he came to the college and joined the 
 intermediate class, and theu he applied himself to it heart and soul. 
 
 2079. Where did he come from ? — From the Eastern Province. 
 
 2080. Pirsidoit.'] Do you find boys coming from the Transvaal or the Free State 
 also backward in that way ? — The Free State students as a rule are good in Dutch, 
 compared with the rest. 
 
 2081. And in English too ? — Yes, as a rule ; but then we get the pick of the 
 Free State students. 
 
 2082. Do any come to you from the Grey College? — Yes, and as a rule they take 
 very creditable positions in our classes. 
 
 2083. Hcv. MooiJ-cfs.'j Have you heard of students who have finished their course 
 at the Normal College ? — Yes, some joined our classes lately. 
 
 2084. Are they proficient in Dutch ? — They ai-e not as a rule. 
 
 Jier. 
 
 r. J. 
 
 Professor 
 G. de Vo: 
 
 March 2nd, 1891 
 
 Ri'v. Vrnfismr P. J. G. de Voh examined. 
 
 2085. Prcsidoit.'] What is your special duty at Stellenbosch ? — I am one of the 
 theological professors at the Dutch Seminary. 
 
 20S6. How long have you been so ? — About seven jears. 
 
 2087. Have you seen the questions submitted to this Commission for consideration ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 2088. How do you think the irregularity of attendance of children can best be 
 prevented? I have not had much experience as to that, but I think the appointment 
 of a truancy officer might do good in some places. We all have our difficulties in
 
 145 
 
 regard to ii-regularity of attendance. I think in some cases that education Ls not •'?«''• J^ofator 
 cheap enough, and parents find it difficult to pay the school fees ; and it is not always ■''•/• ^- '^ '"'■ 
 an easy matter to have so many free scholars. March -ind 1891. 
 
 2089. Do you speak from experience on that matter ? — Yes. 
 
 2090. At Cape Town, or elsewhere ?— At StoUenbosch and wherever I have been. 
 
 2091. You think there ought to be a school where the fees are lower than the 
 lowest of the present scale ? — In many cases, yes. Of course it is not so everywhere, 
 but it is very often the case in aided schools, where such large salaries have to be paid 
 to teachers. I do not object to that ; they should be paid properly, but in order to 
 find these salaries, as the Goverment only contributes one-half, the school fees have to 
 be raised considerably. 
 
 2092. What are the lowest school fees at Stellenbosch in the aided schools 'i — 
 For boys, from six to nine shillings a month, for girls somewhat less, and the conse- 
 (juence is that they g(j to small private schools, whore the fees are much less. 
 
 209;i. Do the majority of boys go to school at Stellenbosch ? — Yes. 
 
 2094. How would you establish schools for the lowest class of white children ? — 
 Grenerally speaking, education ought to be made much cheaper. The Government ought 
 to contribute more towards the salaries of the teachers in the undenominational schools, 
 and then good use might be made of what has been jiroposed by the Education 
 Department, the fourth class schools, under certain restrictions. In large towns and 
 in the larger villages, I think they would serve a good purpose. The white children 
 would be got out of the mission schools, and they would get a better sort of instruction 
 and cheaper than they can get in the other undenominational schools. 
 
 2095. Would you have the fees in these fourth class public undenominational 
 schools cheaper than in the mission schools ? — In the mission schools they are low 
 enough in most cases. 
 
 2096. How would you attract children into these fourth class schools who now 
 go to the mission schools ? — By giving them better instruction, and, if possible, in 
 some cases, cheaper ; but. as a rule, I think the fees in tiie mission schools are 
 very low. I would give them better instruction, and bring them among a better 
 class of children. 
 
 2097. Would it be fair to the mission schools to withdraw the children who 
 now attend them ? — I take it that mission schools are not intended for those who do not 
 belong to mission congregations. They are for coloured children and a few others. 
 
 2098. You say that now the mission schools are used by others as well? — Yes; 
 and sometimes the village school suffers in consequence. I have had' experience 
 more than once of children who ought to be in a Government school being in a 
 mission school because the fees are low. To obviate that, the fourth class schools 
 should be under the same committee as is appointed for the undenominational school. 
 
 2099. The guarantors might not object to guarantee a first-class school, because 
 they send their own children there, but they might not care to guarantee a cheap 
 fourth class school ? — It is not proposed that they should guarantee an3-thing. The 
 Government would give the salary of the teacher in that case, and there woidd be 
 something from the children in the way of school fees, just as in the mission schools ; 
 but the point is this, these fourth class schools should not stand in the way of other 
 village schools, as I have sometimes seen the case with mission schools ; so much so 
 indeed, that we have had to compel children to leave mission schools, who ought not to 
 be there, because the other schools suffer. 
 
 2100. You mean compel them to go to undeuominational schools ? — Yes ; chil- 
 dren who ought to be there, are in the mission schools. That is one reason why the 
 fourth class public imdenominational schools should be under the same Committee of 
 Management as the first class or second class schools ; at all events, they should be 
 managed by a committee chosen by the public, but if possible, by the same committee 
 as the other schools, so as to make them work together. 
 
 2101. Do not you think, if the committee was not conscious, as it is in the case 
 of a first class school, that it had to guarantee any deficiency, they would embark upon 
 reckless expenditure in the case of fourth class undenominational schools, knowing 
 that nothing would come out of their pockets and that the Government would have to 
 pay everything r" — The salaries would be fixed according to the number of children in 
 the school, and I do not see much difficulty. 
 
 2102. In that case, would it be a wise thing, do you Ihiuk, instead of calling 
 upon Government to pay the deficiency, to let the rates of the district be chargeable 
 for such deficiency ; I mean with regard to fourth class schools ^ — If thej have to 
 guarantee a certain sum, they would hi.ve to pay it, but I do not understand that they 
 have to guarantee anything. I think the difficulty might be met in other liigher 
 schools, by the Government contributing a larger amoimt towards the salaries, say two- 
 thirds instead of half ; and half the other expenses, interest on buidiugs, and so on.
 
 146 
 
 Jttv. Professor 2103. Do vou now speak of all schools ? — Yes. I would make the Grovernmeut 
 
 pay two-thu'ds oi the salaries. 
 
 March Jnd, 1891. 2104. And if thero is a deficit, ou whom is it to rest? — Just as now ; ontho.se 
 
 who establish the school. You do awa^' with tlio difficulty of Boards or Divisional 
 Councils doing the work, and you reduce the school fees to such an extent that you do 
 away with small priyato schools, which are undermining the Q-overnment schools 
 almost everywhere to an astonishing extent. 
 
 2105. If the}' are doing good work, why should you undermine them. People 
 must live, must they not ? — If the Government contributes such large sums, you sup- 
 pose that they can establish good schools, such as private people cannot, and they can 
 do so much better when all are united ; all the children are in one school, but when 
 they arc divided, it stands to reason that the Government school must suffer, and the 
 other schools cannot be what they should be. 
 
 2106. You woidd bo in favour of having one large school, and no private schools at 
 all ? — Yes ; as far as possible I would have one good cheap school at the expense of 
 the State, and no private schools. 
 
 2107. Mr. Thero)i.'\ Suppose the number of scholars appearing in the annual 
 report of the Superintendent-General of Education to be 76,000, do 3'Ou think that is 
 the whole number of children receiving education in the country? — No. There is a 
 large number in private schools, and a large number in no school whatever. 
 
 2108. Mr. Ruu-an.'] Have you read Sir Langham Dale's scheme for the establish- 
 ment of fourth class schools ? — Yes. 
 
 2109. Are you in favour of putting these fourth class schools under donomina- 
 tioual bodies ? — No ; that would be undermining the Government system I think. 
 
 2110. Br. Berry.'\ In towns v'ou are acquainted with, would there bo room for 
 such a school as you suggest ? — I hardly think it would be necessary in a place like 
 Stellenbosch ; it would only apply to large towns like Cape Town, Port Elizabeth, and 
 places where you have a large number of the lower class children. The other places, I 
 think, might bo provided for iu the ordinary way. 
 
 2111. Do not you think that fourth class schools would to some extent remedy 
 the defect which you say exists at Stellenbosch in regard to the number of private 
 adventure schools ? — Not if education is cheapened as I said I thought it should be, 
 because then it would only be individual instances, and those might be met in another 
 way. I think it applies more to the large towns. 
 
 2112. But would not these fourth class schools be the means of cheapening 
 education ?— Yes ; as far as they go ; but if you do not go any further, then the child of 
 a poor parent would not be able to advance. I consider that in the higher schools the fees 
 are too high, even for those who can pay for the education of their childi-en. 
 
 2113. Is not that a reasou why some means should be devised for getting cheaper 
 education ?— Yes, exactly ; but if the school fees are reduced in the higher schools, 
 as I think they should be, theu it would not be necessarj'- in a place like Stellenbosch, 
 to have a fourth class public undenominational school. The great point with regard to 
 these fourth class schools, in my oiinion, is that they should not be in connection with 
 denominational bodies, but under the same school committees of management that 
 exist already, or if there be more, then some committee elected by the public. 
 
 2114. President. '\ Is it not a fact that some of these Boards are virtually deno- 
 minational bodies ; does not the Dutch lieformod Church in some cases represent the 
 Board and provide the whole machinery ? — Not that I am aware of. It may possibly 
 amount to that, because nearly all the jieople in the district belong to the Dutcli 
 Reformed Church, but that does not apply to the way in which the Boards are 
 nominated. There are certain regulations ; a public meeting has to be called, proper 
 notice given, and anybody can come there and vote. 
 
 2115. But is it not the fact that some of these first class Schools Boards of Managers 
 are virtually the Dutch Keformed Chiircli ? — They may be members of the churcJi, 
 but not the church itself. On the whole, the Dutch Reformed Church is in favour of 
 undenominational schools, bt^cause it is doing justice to everybody. It leaves it open 
 to parents to provide for the instruction of their children. The parents elect the 
 committee, and the committee choose the teachers, and that is the only fair way. 
 That is wh}' \ve are in favour of it. 
 
 2116. Some think that the church is in favour of it because they can virtually 
 control the school, being in a majority, and practically convert it into a denominational 
 school. 
 
 2117. If the managers determine upon certain denominational instruction, they 
 can carry it out, can they not ? — They represent the public, so it is the representatives 
 of the public who do it. 
 
 2118. If the majority of the public happens to be Dutch Reformed Church, or 
 Boman Catholic, or Church of England, they can introduce their particular creed, and
 
 147 
 
 virtually carry on a denominational school, nan they not ?— They have no right to ^'- ^"f""!^ 
 introduce denominational instruction properly speaking. Five hours a day have to be '''■ __f 
 given to the ordinary work of the school, and for the rest, the time devoted to March 2nd, 1891. 
 religious instruction can be a matter of arrangement. 
 
 2119. So that if the majority happen to be of a certain denomination, they can 
 introduce a particular religious instruction, can they not ':*— It is the representatives of 
 the public who do it at all events. 
 
 2120. Rev. Moorrees.] Must every kind of religious instruction needs be denomi- 
 national ? — No ; it is not intended it should be denominational at all ; just Bible history 
 and general instruction of that kind. There is nothing to prevent ministers of different 
 denominations having classes at the same time and teaching their respective doctrines, 
 
 2121. Dean Holmes.'] Sir Langham Dale said that that could not be done without 
 the full consent of the managers ? — They may not have a right to do so in school, but 
 as the children would not be compelled to attend a class in school, ministers might hold 
 a class anywhere else at the same time. 
 
 2122. President.'] With regard to the Eoman Catholics, they do object to the 
 Bible being read ; they say that only portions of it can be read safely to children or 
 even grown up people ; so they do object to that system, and they treat every school 
 where this is done as a denominational school ; are not they therefore virtually excluded 
 from these schools ? — There is the conscience clause, and I do not think they can 
 complain. 
 
 2123. What steps should in your opinion be taken to give Boards of Management 
 perpetual succession, and provide for the tenure of public school property. Do you 
 think the present guarantee system ought to be abandoned ? — No. I think on the 
 whole, especially at present, that we should tamper as little as possible with the 
 system, and with a view to this also, I am of opinion that Government should give 
 larger support to the schools, and then the pecuniary responsibility resting on the 
 managers would be so small, that there would be no difficulty in finding managers, or 
 in perpetuating the existence of the school. I think there should be some responsibility, 
 otherwise I am afraid that proper interest will not be taken in the affairs of the school. 
 
 2124. But it the Government gives a larger portion of the revenue for this purpose, 
 and the managers can introduce the religion that they decide upon during school hours, 
 and the effect of that is to exclude Roman Catholics from these schools, is it not putting 
 on them a higher tax than exists at present ; they do not attend the schools, and yet 
 they have to pay a portion of the taxation ? — They have no valid reason for keeping 
 their children from school, they need not attend rehgious instruction, and that is all 
 they object to. 
 
 2125. Would it not be unfair to voluntary schools now in existence, the masters of 
 which are earning a fair livelihood, if the Government stepped in and gave further aid 
 to these undenominational schools, so as to reduce the fees to a minimum ? — You 
 must look to the interests of the whole country, and not of individuals. If it is in the 
 interests of the system, and therefore of the children, we cannot look to the private in- 
 terests of individuals, I should say. 
 
 2126. Do not you think it is rather the duty of the State not to help those who 
 ©an help themselves, but to help those who cannot help themselves, and that we ought 
 therefore rather to see how far we can educate those who cannot educate themselves, 
 and go into the highways and byways, to find the children who are wholly uneducated, 
 and find schools for them ? — I take it for granted that we aid the poor, but for the rest I 
 am afraid that this plan will not answer in this Colony ; the country is too poor, and 
 we shall be having a number of private schools in the place where one school would 
 answer a better purpose. 
 
 2127. But if the Colony is too poor to help those who cannot help themselves, 
 ought the Colony to help those who can help themselves ? — I say that as a rule, people 
 cannot help themselves in the Colony, so as to establish a good school. If we had to 
 help ourselves, we could never have a college at Stellenbosch, therefore I would not be 
 in favour of levying rates to pay deficiencies. 
 
 2128. The moment you levy rates, you give the people a personal interest, whereas, 
 if you go the general Government you do not ? — School eomnuttees would not take 
 that view of it, they would simply think if there is a deficiency, it will come out of 
 another chest. 
 
 2129. If the school managers are elected by the ratepayers, then they would have 
 an interest in seeing that the school paid, so as to come as little as possible upon their 
 shoulders, would they not ?— I am afraid they will elect men, who will briug «lown the 
 standard of the schools just on that account, and education will suffer in the district in 
 consequence. 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] c
 
 148 
 
 R/.. Pr»ff.K,r 2130. If you increase the amount which the general Government is to give, to 
 
 /'. J. a. .ir To., t^o.ti^ijdg^ ^ill not the whole district try to help themselves at the expense of the 
 Murol. Ji.a. mi. Government ?— The Education Department must judge whether a school is wanted in a 
 certain locality. 
 
 2131. If the present boards are to continue, how could you make them perpetual, 
 and give perpetual succession to the property they acquire ? — The main reason why 
 they do not continue to exist is because of these deficiencies. The guarantcirs have to 
 pay up, and they do not like to be called upon a second timeiftliey have paid once. 
 
 2132. Have you any suggestion to make about vesting the property ? — It would 
 depend upon circumstances. The buildings are acquired in so many different ways ; 
 sometimes they are rented, and sometimes tliey belong to private persons. I know a 
 case where the property was vested in the churchwardens of the Dutch Reformed 
 Church, because they had given the ground for a public school as trustees. 
 
 2133. Why not have transferred it to some permanent body in trust for that 
 school ? — The Government is satisfied in that case with the board of churchwardens ; 
 it is considered a permanent body, and they act only as trustees for the public. It waa 
 stipulated that the rental should be as low as possible. I think it was only the annual 
 expense of taxes and repairs ; and it was done just in the interests of education. 
 
 2134. Was there not another body besides the Vestry, in whom you would have 
 the property vested, so that it could be known and treated as public school property ? — 
 In the case I mention, it was not necessary, because it was a public school. The object 
 was to find a permanent body, and Sir Langham Dale considered that the Vestry 
 would suffice. 
 
 2135. Could not you have a more permanent body, that is to say one permanent 
 body for all the undenominational schools in the district ? — 1 hardly see how that 
 oould be done. Sometimes the buildings are built by a number of people in the neigh- 
 bourhood. 
 
 2136. All the more reason why the property should be vested in some definite 
 body, is it not ? — In that case it would be vested in the managers for the time being 
 as trustees. 
 
 2137. But suppose there arc no managers ; at the end of three years they go out 
 and tliere is an interregnum, is tliere not ? — It could be arranged in this way ; they 
 need not all go out of office at the same time; one-half could be electeil oni^ year and 
 the other half the following year, and it could be stipulated that they remained in office 
 till their successors had been elected. 
 
 2138. Suppose the public summoned to the meeting will not elect successors; then 
 there is half of tlie body left ; what then ? — If the school comes te nothing, the difficulty 
 is tlie same in either ease. 
 
 2139. There might be a serious difficulty as to the school property, and litigation 
 might ensue, might it not ? — Government reserves the right to recoup itself and liave 
 its money back if the school comes to nothing. 
 
 2140. How would it do to vest the school property in the Civil Commissioner as 
 trustee, he taking his directions from the managers ? — That might be done in some 
 cases, but in others, people would say, wo have contributed the largest amount towards 
 the buildings of these schools, and we do not wish to give them entirely out of our 
 hands. 
 
 2141. They do not give it out of their hands, they give it to the managers, pre.senl 
 and future, vesting the property in a trustee. Would your church consent to that !'' — 
 It depends entirely on the way the buildings have been erected. In the case I men- 
 tioned, they have bound themselves, for all time to come, to give this property for a 
 school, established according to the rules of the Government, an undenominational 
 school for the district, and the churchwardens only act as trustees. 
 
 2142. If they have gone as far as that, they intended to divest themselves of the 
 projjerty, and all you have to do is to find a permanent trustee ; would not the Civil 
 Commissioner be a suitable person for the purpose ? — I am not sure whether they would 
 always bo satisfied with that. 
 
 2143. Mr. Rowan.'^ You have been manager of more than one undenominational 
 school, have you not r* — Yes; I have been at lliversdale, Caledon, Piquetberg, and 
 Stellenbosch. 
 
 2144. Has there ever been a deficiency in any of the schools with which you have 
 had to do ? — I think there was one instance at Caledon, if I am not mistaken, but it 
 has seldom hap ened in my experience. It depends upon the way in which the school 
 is conducted very much. 
 
 2145. Dr. Brrry.~\ Does the dread of a deficiency ever operate on the minds of 
 people who otherwise might become guarantors or managers ? — Yes ; if it iias once 
 happened, they never forget it. At the same time, I think there ought to be some kind 
 of pecuniary responsibility.
 
 149 
 
 2146. Mr. Roiran.] How would a system of subscribers do instead of guarantors ? ^"- frof'^tM 
 — I have tried that sometimes iu the case of third class schools in a district where it " ' __' 
 was difficult to start a school. I have got people to subscribe in that way, so that the Usreh2nd, if 91. 
 rich persons, who have only one or two children, aid the poor. It answered so far very 
 
 well, and the system induces people to work together and make some sacrifice for others. 
 One man puts his name down for so much, and another for so much, and aU the 
 subscriptions are added together and treated as a guarantee fund. 
 
 2147. Rev. Coe/zee.'\ In that case you have no fees ? — No. 
 
 2148. President.^ Do you consider the present facilities for giving instruction in 
 the English and Dutch languages sufficient ? — No. There ought to be provision for 
 Dutch in the Elementary examination, seeing that it is the language of a large 
 majority in this country. One result of such omission is, that insufficient attention is 
 paid to the language in schools. Teachers and pupils just look for what will pay best 
 in examinations, and if it will not pay to study Dutch, it will be neglected. 
 
 2149. At present the matter is within the discretion of the University Council, 
 would you propose to withdraw it from their discretion ? — If they decide otherwise and 
 satisfy all parties, so far so good, but if they do not, then I suppose other steps will 
 have to be taken, to see that the existing state of things is remedied. 
 
 2150. Do you think the University Council is badly constituted, or would you 
 advise any alteration in its constitution ? — I am hardly prepared to answer that 
 question. 
 
 2151. You think at any rate, that they would exercise a wise discretion if Dutch 
 was introduced into the Elementary examination, making it a sixth subject? — Yes. 
 It depends of course how it is arranged. I would not make it compulsory for every 
 candidate. 
 
 2152. Does it not virtually become compulsory to an ambitious boy, if it is an 
 additional subject for which he can score marks?— It depends upon how the examina- 
 tion is arranged. According to my idea, you should give tlie same number of marks 
 to Dutch as to English. 
 
 2153. Would you have a paper, similar to the present English paper, in Dutch, 
 giving a candidate an opportunity of answering either in English or Dutch, or would 
 you have Dutch as an additional subject ? — As an additional subject. It would be 
 only fair that the same number of marks should be attached to the Dutch paper as to 
 the English, putting the two languages on a level. I myself wish my children to 
 learn English, and those I represent feel the same I think, and we do not object to 
 have English a compulsory subject, but we wish to see justice done to the mother 
 tongue of a large portion of the inhabitants, and wish it to be put on a level with the 
 English language. Practically, there are two languages used in this country, and a 
 child who knows them both is better educated than a child who knows only one 
 language, and therefore it should reap the benefit of it. 
 
 2154. But do you not handicap an English boy by adding Dutch as an additional 
 subject. If an English boy and a Dutch boy both understand Dutch, they are so to 
 speak equal, but if the English boy does not understand Dutch at all, then the Dutch 
 boy gets the advantage, does he not ? — I do not see that at all. You handicap the 
 Dutch boy by making the English language compulsory, and it is only putting the two 
 on a level. 
 
 2155. You would not force a boy to learn Dutch if he did not oare to, would you ? 
 —No. 
 
 2156. It might be that a boy intended to leave this country and go somewhere 
 where he would never hear Dutch again. Would you not therefore have alternative 
 pajoers in French or Latin, and give the candidate the option of taking either? — I 
 would not be against that. It might tide over the difficulty, and perhaps give satisfac- 
 tion to all parties. 
 
 2157. The objection raised by those engaged in the work of education is, that 
 boys are already weighted with enough subjects, audit would be undesirable to bur.len 
 them with any more ; is that so ? — I am not in favour of throwing o\erboard a 
 language which is the mother tongue of a large portion of the people. Still, I think, 
 French or German might be put as optional subjects by the side of Dutch, or in 
 preference to that, there might be a modification of the plan proposed by the Teachers' 
 Association. Their idea is to have two lists of successful candidates, one list containing 
 the names of those who have taken Dutch, and the other a list of all the candidates 
 together, without giving them the benefit of theii- knowledge of Dutch. I wouM 
 propose to have the names of all the candidates on hoik lists, but to let the marks for the 
 Dutch paper be taken into account on ttie one list and tiot on the other. Then you 
 might divide the bursaries or prizes equally between the two sets. If a candidate oarae 
 near the top on both lists, I would give him a special prize. 
 
 V 2
 
 150 
 
 *"'• ^"/•♦»»r 2158. Mr. Roican.] For each subject you are aware there is a giveu number of 
 
 ■ J^*^ "marks. Suppose a boy has the additional Dutch subject, lie will have to take more 
 
 Marcli iiid, 1801. time to study it than the boy who has only five subjects. If the boys are of the same 
 
 intellectual capacit}', would not the boy taking only five subjects be able to secure more 
 
 marks, and in that way make it up ":' — Very likely. 
 
 2159. Are you aware that in the Matriculation examination Greek is 
 an optional subject, and yet it counts ? — Yes ; I do not know why it should not be the 
 same with the Dutch language. 
 
 21(j0. Have you anything further to suggest ? — It has been proposed to 
 give Government aid to voluntary schools, as in the case of tlie Rhenish Institute at 
 Stelleubosch, which is connected with a religious body, and couNcrt it into an undeuoni- 
 national scliool. I consider that a very dangerous precedent, and of course it must 
 injure the existing Government school. My idea is that it should be done in no case. 
 I know there are instances where such a school exists in a district, and there is no 
 other school, but even then 1 think the public should liave an opjiortunity of deciding 
 whether they would start an undenominational school of the ordinary kind or not. 
 
 2161. Do you think it fair that public money should be used, because the majority 
 in a particular locality say so, in order to injure a voluntary school in e.xistence, when 
 you will not allow public money to be used to aid a voluntary school which is actually 
 doing good work ? — -I think the parents in the district should have the choice in the 
 matter. The present system should bo left intact. 
 
 2162. The system is started with the object of advancing the public good and 
 promoting secular education. If secular education can bo best promoted by aiding 
 voluntary schools, why should the system stand in the way of doing what is so beneficial 
 to the public ? — I should wish the public to judge of that, and say whether they want 
 the private school to continue, or to be converted into a public school, or whether it is 
 desirable to have an undenominational school stiirted. 
 
 2163. Rfv. Coeizee.] What is your experience as to the working of the present 
 system ? — I have every reason to be satisfied with it. The moment excejitions are 
 allowed, you do not know where to stop, and I am afraid many would avail themselves 
 of the opportunity if the door is once opened, and gradually we shall see the public 
 schools disappearing. 
 
 2164. President.'} Do not you think that the public schools, instead of disappearing, 
 would go on growing, if the ratepayers were called upon to elect an educational board 
 and pay any deficiency that might exist in any one of the undenominational schools ; 
 would it not give the public a greater interest and cause denominations to step in and 
 work under that system, so as to have good schools in the district ? — I am very doubtful 
 as to the way these Boards will work, for more than one reason. I know in many 
 cases there is a strong feeling between the country people and the village people, for 
 instance, and if the country people have a majority on the Board, they might perhaps 
 say they do not see the use of having a first or second class school in the village, as 
 they cannot put their children there ; they have to pay so much. In that respect, it 
 may stand in the way of a good school in the village. 
 
 2165. Rcr. J/bor/ws.] With regard to the Elementary examination, a difficulty 
 has been made of this, that if Dutch be added to the list of subjects, it would be too 
 large ; I should like to know from you whether Dutch-speaking children are not now 
 already heavily weighted ? — Certainly ; they are put to a great disadvantage in the 
 examination. 
 
 2166. And they get no compensation ? — They get no credit for it. 
 
 2167. I believe you are a representative witness of the Dutch-speaking class; do 
 you consider proper Dutch a foreign language to a Dutch child at the Cape ?-— In one 
 respect I would say yes, and in another, no. They understand proper Dutch, but they 
 have to go and learn it grammatically. There is a good deal of difficulty connected 
 with that, because they do not hear it every day, so that they find it pretty difficult to 
 learn. 
 
 2168. But the language itself is not foreign, is it ? — No, certainly not ; no 
 more than you would say the English language spoken grammatically in England is 
 a foreign language compared with the dialect used by the lower classes. 
 
 T/te Most Rev. the Binhop of Cape Town examined. 
 
 TheMoiiRev. 2169. Betin Ilo/ities.} Tour lordship is Bishop of Cape Town ? — Yes. 
 
 "r„f,"^Z,f ^^I^- -^^"^ ^°"^ ^^"^^ y°^^ ^"^^^ ^° ?— Between 16 and 17 years. 
 
 ' 2171. Have you seen the questions submitted to this Commission for cousidera- 
 
 March -'U'l, 1891. ti(m ? — Yes.
 
 151 
 
 2172. We understand that there is very considerable iiTegularity of attendance TluMouRc-. 
 in the schools in Cape Town ; can you assign any reason for it ? — I should say that it ^ r;iipfT"un' 
 was principally due to the indifference of the parents in the matter of education. 
 
 2173. Do you think the fees charged have anything to do with it':* — No; they March 2nd, 1891. 
 are very low. I do not think that would interfere at all, though that may be made 
 
 an excuse sometimes ; but it is not the real reason, I am perfectly certain, for children 
 not being educated. 
 
 2174. What suggestions can you offer to remedy this irregularity ? — Only the 
 same suggestion that I made before the Commission which sat in 1879, namely, the 
 introduction of compulsory education. It was thought at the time an impracticable 
 solution of the difficidty, but I ventiire to think that public opinion is coming more 
 round to it than formerly, nor can I see any difficulty in carrying "out the system in 
 towns and municipalities. 
 
 2175. Under the School Board system at home, the attendance officer not only 
 picks \X]) children in the streets, but visits the houses and makes enquiries as to the 
 number of children being educated and so on, and then reports to the authorities on 
 the subject ; do you think such a system as that would be welcome or distasteful to the 
 people here ?— I am not prepared to say that it would be welcome or distasteful, but 
 it woidd be gi-eatly for the good of the children, and I tiiink it would be welcome 
 among the more reasonable class of people. No doubt it would be distasteful to those 
 who are indifferent to education or desire to keep their children at home for insufficient 
 reasons. There is a large number of persons, among the poor especially, who on the 
 shghtest excuse or most trivial pretence, keep their children away from school. To such 
 persons I take, it the visit of an attendance officer would naturally be distasteful. 
 
 2176. In Cape Town the bulk of the education is carried on through the mission 
 schools, is it not ? — Yes ; by the different Church bodies. 
 
 2177. Have you considered the question of turning these mission schools into 
 fourth class public undenominational schools ? — No ; I have not been able sufficiently 
 to ascertain what the mode of procedure would be to form any idea as to whether it 
 would be advisable or unadvisable. I should very much regret if the mission schools 
 became in any large number of cases separated from the purposes for which they have 
 already been constituted, and I should also regret what I think would very likely be 
 the result (although I know there are many who differ from me) the banishment of all 
 the white children from oar mission schools. I think the presence of the two together 
 is really advantageous to both ; it has proved so at Zonnebloem. I think the influence 
 of the white children, when properly educated, has been advantageous to the others, 
 and I do not think the influence of the coloured children is disadvantageous to the 
 whites. 
 
 2178. Do you think the managers of these mission schools would object to come 
 under this system, provided they were allowed to carry on their schools just as they do 
 at present ? — I am afraid I can express no opinion about that ; I have never consulted 
 the managers upon the subject. 
 
 2179. There would be no guarantors, and any deficiency in their accounts might 
 be made up from the rates, which would relieve them of a great deal of anxiety, would 
 it not? — I think there would be no objection to that, as far as I can see. 
 
 2180. I)r. Brrry.l In Cape Town alone, something like five or six additional 
 schools would be required if fourth class schools are established, and buildings would 
 have to be provided ; would you state from your experience whether you think it at all 
 likely that such buildings would be forthcoming by any effort ? — I very much doubt 
 whether the money would be forthcoming by voluntary agency. 
 
 2181. Suppose the Grovernment were to advance the money to build these schools, 
 on condition that the ratepayers paid the interest on half the sum required, do j'ou 
 think then the public would be at all likely to take a scheme of that kind up ? — I am 
 afraid I can hardly answer that question. It seems to me that if a very large amount 
 of school accommodation were needed in addition to the present, fimds would be 
 forthcoming to expand the present system by enlarging the mission schools. 
 
 2182. Do you tliink the funds would be forthcoming ? — For development of the 
 mission school system they would be forthcoming. 
 
 2183. It has been suggested that in a district where a mission school is now 
 established, it would be perfectly possible for a foui-th class public undenominational 
 school for the white children alone of that mission school to exist side by side, and for 
 those who vu-tually carry on the mission school to get themselves elected managers of 
 the undenominational public school in that ncighbom-hood ; if that could be done, do 
 you think your objection to these fourth class schools would apply Y — I think it would 
 starve out the mission schools at once. 
 
 2184. If it is proved by returns given by the authorities that five or six new 
 schools are really needed, how could the mission schools be stai'ved out '( — You would
 
 152 
 
 T/u Uott Rev. weed out all the white children, who form a considerable element in the town, and 
 th, Bi'hopof ij,nyg simply the coloured children behind, and we should hardly be able to maintain 
 
 our schools. ■ _ 
 
 March Jnd, 1891. 2185. Are you aware that the mission schools were established and are maintained 
 
 chiefly, if not entirely, for the purpose of educating the poorer coloured children, and 
 that tlu' white children have crept into these schools through what might be called an 
 oversight ? — I was not aware of that. 
 
 2186. If that is so, would it not be right that the balance should be readjusted, 
 and an endeavour made in some way to provide education for those poorer white 
 children who praoticallj' have come into existence since the system of mission schools 
 was established ? — -I think it would bo right if it were ascertained that the white 
 children imder the present system are neglected. 
 
 2187. The contention is, not that the white children are neglected, but that the 
 coloured children are neglected ; that the mission schools were established for the 
 coloured children, but in too many cases they have to be occupied exclusirely by white 
 children ; and the endeavour is, by this system of fourth class schools, to re-adjust the 
 mistake which has occurred '^ — I was not aware that coloured children were excluded 
 from the mission schools by reason of the white children being there. 
 
 2188. It must be so, for we find that the mission schools in Cape Town alone are 
 attended almost exclusively by white chUdron. There are in Cape Town 25 mission 
 schools, and attending those schools there are practically 3,000 white children and 
 4,283 coloured. I have ascertained that from the Education Department ? — The 
 difficulty is to distinguish who are '' coloured " chUdron. I should think the distribu- 
 tion of white and coloured just mentioned is a very arbitrary one. 
 
 2189. Looking at the matter broadly, do not you think that a movement in this 
 Colony which tended to provide better class schools for the poorer white children would 
 meet with popular sympath}- '^ — Yes ; I think it would, especially on the part of the 
 parents of such children, if they thought that they would get them educated as cheaply 
 as they are now. 
 
 2190. Another feature in this system is, that the teacher shall be paid entirely by 
 the Government, so that the fees could be reduced to a very low standard indeed ; 
 would not that tend advantageously in your opinion ? — I have no doubt it would bo 
 much more popular. 
 
 2191. If it was further enacted that these schools should be allowed to be set up 
 by the Government in a place like Cape Town, where it was foimd that the popu- 
 lation required them, and where practically gentlemen interested in mission schools 
 could become managers of the public undenominational school, do not you think that 
 might in some way secure the sympathies of the religious bodies in this movement ? — 
 I think it would very likely do so, if you were to provide that the mission schools should 
 not be entirely closed. 
 
 2192. Practically the managers of one would be managers of the other, would 
 they not ? — But if you have the mission schools in the same district, one for the white 
 and one for the coloured, unless some system of compulsion is introduced, coloured 
 children will not attend in any larger numbers than they do now. The attendance of 
 coloured children is not small because of the want of accommodation, but because the 
 parents are not anxious to send them. 
 
 2193. The managers might have power to say which children shall attend each 
 school, without assigning any cause, might they not ; would such a system be work- 
 able at all, do you think. The scheme would practically allow the managers of the 
 mission school to become managers also of the public undenominational school, because 
 in that district it is supposed that the managers of the mission school would really be 
 the only persons interested enough in the cause of education to become managers of the 
 fourth class public school ? — I differ from that view entirely. Take districts a, b, or 
 c, in Cape Town, where a mission school is established : the managers of mission 
 
 chools are to all intents and purposes the clergy of the pai-ish, as things are at pre- 
 sent, but the clergy cannot be supposed to be the only persons in district " a " who have 
 any interest in establishing another school, or in carrying on the work of education 
 in the district. 
 
 2194. Would not the clergyman of the parish be able to get laymen alongside 
 him to act as managers ?— But laymen and others not belonging to his communion 
 would claim a right to take part in the management. I should not admit that because 
 thei-e is a mission school in that district, therefore any particular religious body is all 
 powerful. At present, I confess I am not much inclined towards these fomth class 
 liublic undenominational schools, certainly if they are undenominational. 1 feel this, 
 that the souls of the children who go to m^- schools, whether white or coloured, are put 
 into ni}' hands because I am the clergyman of the parish, and I consider that I am 
 responsible before God for the care of the souls of those children entrusted to me.
 
 153 
 
 The parents expect that they will be brought up in the teaching of the church to Thf Mott Her. 
 which they belong, and they have a right to expect it ; but if there is a public unde- '^^ ^eTown^ 
 
 nominational school started alougside the mission school, the white children are at ■ 
 
 once banished fi'om the mission school, and they grow up without the teaching of the March 2nd, I89i 
 church. 
 
 2195. Would your objection apply when we find that the schools of one religious 
 body are attended hj 1,438 children, only f>33 of whom belong to that religious body, 
 and 800 to other denominations ? — I do not know what that school may be. I can only 
 say this, that if it were my case, the chilldren would be taught uuder a conscience 
 clause. In my school, if the parents of the children desired that the latter should not 
 be taught the principles of my church, they would not be taught it, but it would not 
 be fair that those jiarents who wished their children to be taught the principles of their 
 own church should not be allowed to secure it. 
 
 219b. Then we may take it for granted from that that there is a very large num- 
 ber of children at mission schools in Cape Town, who do not go there to be taught 
 religion, or have religious instruction ? — I am not aware of that at all. 
 
 ;i!l97. Rev. Moorrees.'] Would not the establishment of these fourth class schools 
 have the effect of changing the better class of mission schools into foiixth class schools, 
 so that the lower class of children could go to the lower grade of mission schools ? — 
 Possibly so. 
 
 2198. Mr. Rowan.~\ Have you any mission school in Cape Town attended almost 
 exclusively by white children ? — I should think that 8t. Mark's had a veiy large 
 number of white children, but there are coloured chiidi-en there also, I believe. I 
 cannot answer the question from personal knowledge. My impression is that the other 
 mission schools in Cape Town belonging to the English Church would all be attended 
 by more coloured than white children. With regard to the statement that the mission 
 schools of Cape Town are attended by 3,000 white and 4,283 coloured, I think it 
 must have been drawn up in a more or less uncertain and arbitrary manner, according 
 to the fancy of the person separating the two classes. In addition to that, we must 
 remember that a very large proportion of the coloured people in Cape Town are 
 Malays, and no reference is made in the analysis to the number of Malay children who 
 may be under education, therefore I think the statement, so far as regards di-finition 
 of colour, would be misleading. It would take no account of a very large number of 
 coloured children attending Malay schools. If the number of coloui-ed people in Cape 
 Town were analysed, I suspect we shoidd find that the Malays formed a very large 
 proportion of our coloured population ; and of course it cannot be supposed that they 
 would send their children to Christian schools. 
 
 2199. President.'] Is there not a large number of both coloured and white 
 children who are not reached by the present system of public or private education ? — 
 A very large number. You can see that from the childi-eu playing about the streets 
 during school hours. 
 
 2200. How would you set about getting those children into school ? — I should let 
 the parents choose between the various schools in the district as to where they should 
 
 go. • 
 
 2201. You cannot force voluntary schools or even church aided schools to receive 
 them. Under what conditions should the church aided schools receive them ? — I think 
 the church aided schools ought to receive them, and they should receive additional 
 assistance from the Government. I do feel very strongly that our mission schools do 
 not receive such liberal grants from the Education I )epartment as they ought to 
 receive, and I should feel it even more strongly if the different mission schools of any 
 religious denomination were forced to receive children to an unlimited extent. 
 
 2202. Do you think you would bind yourself to receive all the poorer children 
 who were brought to you by a truancy or attendance olficer, if your grant was 
 increased ? — I feel there is a difficulty about it, as you might have vermin brought 
 into your school in any quantity. 
 
 2203. A lot of vicious immoral boys might be brought to you, and you might 
 have to make other provision for dealing with them, might you not ? — I think that 
 either the religious bodies or the Grovernraent should in cases of that sort, establish a 
 kind of ragged school for the reception of such children. 
 
 2204. Do you think the Church of England is prepared to establish such a 
 ragged school ? — I am afraid I cannot say off hand. I am certain, if the compulsory 
 system were introduced, that I should at once try to move the members of my own 
 church to do something in the way of a ragged school, for receiving children imfit to 
 be brought into cleaner and tidier schools. I think it is the dutj' of the State to 
 establish a ragged school. 
 
 2205. Do you think it would answer if the Government gave half, and the rate- 
 payers were forced to contribute the other half, the ratepayers electing the managers,
 
 154 
 
 n, ifofi R.r jj„(| j.],g Education Depni-tment so to speak, controlling the managers and seeing that 
 '''iJpiTuwn^ *^*"y *^''' ^\\f\r <liity 'i — That is a very fair system. I have never had it umler con- 
 
 sideration, hut it strikes me as reasonahle, n^w that you propose it, because it is clear 
 
 March 2n(l, i8'Jl. to qjq ^Jj^^ {( j^ j^r the benefit of the ratepayers that tliese children should be brought 
 into habits of discii)liue and order. 
 
 2'J0(). If tlmt were started, would there be any objections in the Cliurch of 
 England, so far as j-ou see ? — I think it is quite possible if the compulsory system 
 were introduced, that they might endeavour to establish a ragged school in such a 
 dirtrict as Archdeacon Lightfoot's, for instance, where there is a crowded population 
 of very poor people, in tlie expectation tluit the 'Jovernmeut would support it. 
 
 22117. If the Government did establish thest? schools, how woidd you advise them 
 to work, 80 as to allow the moral element through the cliurch bodies to come in ; would 
 you allow all denominations to give education in these schools, or would you not have 
 anything to do with denominations in the matter. The Roman Catholics, for instance 
 object to the reading of the Scriptures ; what provision would you make in the ragged 
 schools with regard to moral teaching. Should it be part of tlie Qovernment system, 
 or would you allow the churches to come in after the secular education has been im- 
 parted ? — I should be exceedingly sorry if in such a school, the rt^ading of the Scrip- 
 tures was forbidden. All distinctive religious teaching might be left out. If the 
 Koman Catholics object, let them withdraw their children while religious instruction is 
 going on. 
 
 2208. I do not think that the Roman Catholics have any large hold over the 
 poorest coloured children, they are more under the influence of the Englisli Church or 
 the Dutch Reformed C'hurch, so there would not be much grievance as far as Cape 
 Town was concerned, and in the case of the few cliildren they have, they could easily 
 withdraw them under the conscience clause. It' the religious bodies are in earnest 
 about the matter and very keen to have their distinctive tenets taught in schools, would 
 it not be their duty to establish ragged schools for the reception of their own children, 
 and if they cannot do that, then should not ther(> be two or three central undenomina- 
 tional schools for ragged children, where the Bible is read, leaving those children who 
 liked, to withdraw under the conscience clause ? — That plan miglit answer. 
 
 2209. Dr. Berry. \ Are you prepared with any statistics about your scliools, as to 
 the amount of money contributed and so on 'i — -The following are the particulars relating 
 to the msssion schools of the Englisli church in the western districts of the Colony, 
 comprised in the diocese of Cape Town : Government grants, £3,)S(J6 ; school fees, 
 £1,07:5 ; grants made by the diocese, £1,122 ; local contributions, £1,0;{2 ; total £7,093. 
 The number of children on the books is 8,676. The average attendance, 5,220, and 
 the average cost of each child on the books, 168. 4d. The children not belonging to 
 the English church number 2,991, and the number of teachers is 169. I cannot 
 furnish the number of pupil teachers, but that information could be obtained from the 
 Education Office. No classification of colour is kept. 
 
 2210. Dean IIo/nifs.~\ What steps do you think should betaken to give Boards of 
 Management perpetual succession and provide for the tenure of public school property^ — 
 I cannot give much opinion on that point. I have had very little to do with public 
 schools. A small number of our church members sit upon Boards of Management, but 
 I have never had any direct dealing with public undenominational schools in the 
 country except visiting them now and then. The (luestion of the tenure of public school 
 property is an important one, and the Government ought to have some control over the 
 buildings. There ought to be some building permanently used in each place secured for 
 an undenominational school. A case came before me in one of the country parishes of 
 the Western Province, where the public school has been absolutely dependent upon our 
 church for years past for a room in which to hold school. I do not think that is a 
 wholesome system that a public school should be dependent for its accommodation 
 upon any religious body. I think it would be reasonable if the Civil Commissioner 
 were made the body corporate. 
 
 2211. Have you considered the question of School Boards having a continuity of 
 existence ? — Yes ; I think it would be a very good thing. 
 
 2212. Would you advocate a central Board for the different districts with local 
 managers for the schools in different parts of that district ? — Yes. 
 
 2213. How would you elect the members of such a School Board r' — I think the 
 ratepayers should elect. 
 
 2214. Do you think that would be a good system, in lieu of the present one, 
 where the guarantors have to make up the deficiency, if a school rate were levied ? — I 
 think so. The present system is not fair ; it is very hard on guarantors to be obliged 
 to provide for the education of children who are not their own, while parents who do 
 send their children to school got off from all paynu'ut except the small fees they pay ; 
 they have no further responsibility.
 
 155 
 
 2215. Suppose there was such a rate, would you have any qualification for the ^'¥"i'''^'- 
 Board, such as exists for members of the Divisional Councils or for members of Par- capeTown. 
 
 liament, and let the rate fall on the richer class ? — I think that it would not be fair 
 
 that the rate should fall on the poorest of the district. March 2nd, 1891. 
 
 2216. Suppose such a Board were elected, do you think that voluntary and 
 mission schools would object to come under the Board system, provided they were 
 allowed freedom in their school ? — No ; I shovAd think not. 
 
 2217. Do you happen to know anything about school accommodation for the 
 children of railway employes ? — That is a very difficult question. The only thing is 
 for the Eailway Department to feel its responsibility. Something might perhaps be 
 done in the way of itinerating teachers. I should have thought an arrangement 
 might be made by the Government to put up simple buildings for schools in certain 
 centres ; the teachers need Jiot always teach in the same school, but go from one centre 
 to another, teaching in one school one fortnight, and in another for a fortnight. 
 
 2218. Do you know anything about schools in agricultural districts? — I think an 
 endeavour should be made to develope the existing system of farm schools, which has 
 been working very well. How to meet the wants of the labouring popidation on out- 
 lying farms, I really do not know ; they seem to be getting more and more outcast. 
 They live in isolated places, and there is little consideration for them on the part of the 
 farmers. 
 
 2219. Br. Berri/.'] Would a system of small capitation grants for the labouring 
 classes be of any use, do you think ? — The difficulty is, that they live at such enormous 
 distances from one another in some places. Where you have clusters of farms con- 
 tiguous to one another, something might be done, but I do not see what is to be done 
 for the labouring classes in places Kke the Karoo, Namaqualand, and the Clanwilliam 
 and Calvinia districts, where the farms are miles apart. 
 
 2220. Bean Hohnes.'] What fui-ther facilities should be afforded for giving instruc- 
 tion in the English and Dutch languages ? — My feeling with regard to tha*^ is, that 
 the fairest system would be to have in the Elementary and other .examinations an 
 alternative paper in the English and Dutch languages, all in English and all in Dutch. 
 With regard to English literature, there should be a corresponding Dutch literature 
 paper, and candidates could answer whichever they liked. One paper should be 
 balanced over against the other, and they should be fairly equal in difficulty. 
 
 2221. President.'] Would you have the same examiner in both languages ?— I 
 think you could find men sufficiently acquainted with both languages. 
 
 2222. Beini, Holmes.'] Would you allow boys to go in for the five subjects, and if 
 they took a sixth, give them extra marks for it ? — Not unless there was a correspond- 
 ing paper to compete with it. 
 
 2223. What other paper would you have ? — Either French or German. 
 
 2224. Would not Latin do. From ray experience, boj's going from the Colony 
 to English public schools or colleges, are at a tremendous disadvantage, and they cannot 
 compete with boys who have been trained at home ; tliey have not the same grounding, 
 moreover, Dutch would not be of much use to a boy who did not intend to live in the 
 Colony, would it ? — No. 
 
 2225. Rev. Coetzee.] At present it is nearly impossible to train children so as to 
 enable them to answer the same questions in Dutch, because most of the instruction is 
 given through the medium of the English language ; would it not be practicable to 
 add Dutch to the list of subjects as optional, and let those candidates who take 
 Dutch as well as English score in their papers ? — It would not seem to be fair to 
 a boy whose parents did not wish him to learn Dutch ; if the boy was going to be sent 
 to England for instance. If you had a corresponding Latin paper to compete with i*-, 
 I ■ hould say yes. 
 
 2226. Bean Solme-n.] You would not confine it to Latin, would you ? — No. It 
 might be French or German. 
 
 2227. Bev. Coetzee.] Why coidd not there be Dutch in the Elementary examina- 
 tion on the same principle as they have Greek in the Matriculation ? — 1 1 liink if a man is 
 going in for University degrees, he ought decidedly to be encouraged to use those 
 languages which are likely to be of service to him, wlien he goes to an English or a 
 Foreign University. 
 
 2228. But they have Dutch in the B.A. examination, and by introducing it into 
 the Elementary examination a boy gets a thorough grounding in the principles of the 
 language, does he not ? — Yes. 
 
 2229. President.] Is there not an objection to papers being set in Dutch and 
 Ene-lish ; woidd it not tend to a divergence of frrling instead of fusing and amal- 
 gamating the two nationalities, whicli I take to be l;ie general desire? — 1 think tliat 
 facilities slunild be offered for learning the two languiiges as far as it can be done. 
 
 |_G. 9— '91.] s. 
 
 I
 
 156 
 
 T/uMoatJlci. 22'M. Dr. Berry. "^ What do you think about night schools iu ft phico like Cape 
 
 "'co'eTuun"^ Town ? — I think it is most desirable to encourage them. There are night schools in 
 
 1' ' the suburbs ; we have one at Claremont during the winter, and there is one at 
 
 March 2nd, 1801. Rondebosch I think. 
 
 2231. "Would it assist night schools if Government gave grants in aid of teachers ? 
 — Yes, certainly ; it is quite right that it should be done. 
 
 2232. Wliat class of children attend these night schools ? — Ohildron of agricul- 
 tural labourers in the suburbs, and others ; sometimes grown up men come. 
 
 2233. Would your church be willing to extend the system of night schools if 
 gi ants in aid were given ? — I have no doubt it would, and be glad to do so. 
 
 2234. Would there be buildings available for the purpose ? — I think so. Some of 
 the buildings used for the children in the day could be used for night schools. 
 
 2235. Do }'0u think that would bo a good means of affording some education to 
 boys and girls in places like Cape Town, where they are employed during the day ? — 
 Certainly ; and it would go further, because many grown up men are glad to come to 
 tho night school, according h< my experience. Several of my own labourers come to 
 my night schools, and I shoukl encourage it in every possible way. 
 
 2236. Fretidenf.] Have ydu »een Sir Langham Dale's recommendation about 
 aiding voluntary schools at jiresont iu existence ? — I do not think so. It would be a 
 most excellent thing, provichnl it was not abused. There ought to be a definite number 
 of pupils and certain results ought to be attained before aid is given. 
 
 2237. Might it not iaterfere with the so-called undenominational schools ? — To 
 a limited extent, but not very largelj'. Speaking as the minister of a religious body, 
 I do feel that there is a larg(( number of people who object to their children being sent 
 to a school wliere there is no distinct religious teaching. Under the present system, 
 although it is quite possiljlo to have religious education of an imdenominational kind 
 given iu the public schools, it is jiossible to exclude it, and where in undenoniiuational 
 schools denominational teachiug is given, that at once is an objection to many parents 
 sending their children to tlieni, because although under the conscience clause tlie chil- 
 dren may be withdrawn from sueli teaching, and become more or less pariahs during the 
 time, there is no comjiensating opportunity of giving religious education in tliose 
 schools on any other lines than those represented by the majority of the Managing 
 Board. In England, there is a movement at the ])resent time for allowing the teaching 
 of non-conformist bodies to be given in our English Church schools, and at a large 
 public meeting, a short time ago, in Newcastle, I think the Bishop of Newcastle spoke 
 in favour of it, on the ground tliat the proportion which the church was contributing 
 towards the maintenance of om- national schools is now very much smaller than it used 
 to be, and if Govei-nmcut contributes so much to the maintenance of our church schools, 
 it is only right that as it derives its money fi-om public sources, the children of parents 
 who are not church people should be entitled to be taught by the ministers of their 
 religious bodies or tlieir authorised representatives, at certain hom-s in the Church of 
 England schools. I wonlil point out tliat if that is fair where schools have been built 
 absolutely at the church's expense, and where they have hitherto been maintained at 
 least to the extent of one-half by the church, it is also fair in our jjublic undenomina- 
 tional schools, which arc buiit at the public expense, maintained by a body of guarantors, 
 and aided by the Government out of funds raised at the public cost, that religious 
 teaching of a denominational kind should be given in such schools under certain con- 
 ditions, other than the teacliing which represents the majority of the managing com- 
 mittee. It seems to me that we are, under the present system in these undenomina- 
 tional schools, drifting from uudenominationalism, that they are no longer really 
 undenominational schools. I would infinitely rather that they should be denomina- 
 tional schools, with any form of Christian religion, than that we should have secular 
 schools where all religious teaching is absolutely excluded. But if members of my church 
 wish to have education for their children within their means and within their reach, I 
 object to theii- being compelled to send their children to a public undenominational school ; 
 unless, when denominational teaching representing the majority of the members of the 
 commitece is being taught to the children in the school, a corresponding opportunity 
 be al.co given for such religious teaching as represents the feeling and desires of the 
 minority of parents, sending their children to school, either at the same time or at some 
 other time which the school may provide for. 
 
 2238. Bcv. Moorrtes.~\ Do you know whether any application of that kind has ever 
 been refused ? — I do not know whether it has or not. I say that it ought not to be 
 possible for the majority of the managing committee to refuse religious teaching other 
 than that given in a so-called undenominational school. If it is a school representing 
 any ]iarticular denomination well and good ; let teaching be given such as belongs to 
 that religious body ; but I do uot think it ought to be possible to exclude iu an unde-
 
 157 
 
 nominational Eohool children from the teaching of their own religious body, when that The Mttt Ber. 
 of another religious bodj' is given. " '** BMop »/ 
 
 2239. Might it not become a physical impossibility in consequence of the want of ^ '^"' 
 room ? — As a matter of fact, I do not think it would be, becau.?e I im;igiue that in all March 2i)d, if-91. 
 the country places I speak of the division would be between the (Jhurch of England 
 
 and the Dutch Eeformed Church. The Dutch Reformed Church teaching would be 
 accept ed by the Presbyterians at once, as well as by the Wesleyans ; and I would again 
 repeat that rather than not have any religious teaching at all I would countenance the 
 teaching of the Dutch Rei ormed Church ; I would not have Roman Catholic teaching. 
 
 2240. Is there any evidence of denominational teaching being given to any 
 extent in our undenominational schools ? — I cannot answer that ; but I believe it to 
 be so. I cannot name instances wjiere distinct denominational teaching is given in 
 undenominational public schools. I suppose there must have been some object in 
 passing a regulation to authorize it. 
 
 2241. Dean Holmes.'] Would you approve of clergy going into these schools 
 during the time allotted for religious instruction 't — Yes, if it could possibly be 
 arranged. 
 
 2242. Have you any other suggestion to make ? — If the Commission feel it to be 
 within the scope of their powers, I should be very glad if they could recommend some 
 pressure being put upon Parliament or the Education Office to get more liberal aid for 
 the teachers in oiu- poorer mission schools. It might be done by raising the amounts 
 now given from £75 to £100, and fi-om £45 to £60. The universal experience of all 
 those who care for the teaching of our poor outcast children in country parishes, fishing 
 villages, and isolati-d spots is, chat you ought to have in all such places men of good 
 moral fibre, able to hold their own against the deadening level of their surroundings. 
 If you send an inferior man to a place of that sort, he is terribly liable to sink ulti- 
 mately to the level of the people about him. If he goes there sober, he occasionally 
 becomes a drunkard, and if he goes a pure-minded man, he gets into habits of immo- 
 rality and vice, simply because he has nothing whatever to keep him up. I do not 
 mean to say you can buy a good man with a higher amount of money, but I do say 
 this, that there are men of a higher level and better education, and with more self-control, 
 who wotild go to a country place, if they had £100 a year to live on, while nothing 
 would induce them to go for £50. We are obliged to put up with a very inferior class 
 of men in our mission stations. 
 
 2243. Dr. Berry.] ^Tiere do the teachers principally come from ? — We are 
 obliged to pick them up where we can. Clergymen sometimes hear of a man of 
 sufficient education and decent moral character who is qualified to teach poor children ; 
 sometimes they are the sons of men who have gone into poverty, failed in business, 
 and so on. We have at Zounebloem, a training college where boys and yoimg men 
 are prepared to go out to mission schools, but the income is so miserably small, and 
 the stirroundings so debasiug, that unless a man has some enthusiasm he gi-ts out of it 
 as soon as he can and takes up with anj^thing else that offers. I give a grant of £100 
 a 3'ear for training boys at Zonnebloem College for mission schoolmasters, but many 
 of them show unfitness for the work, and we are obliged to give up all idea of sending 
 them out ; and some undertake inferior sch')')ls, but soon give them up for something 
 more lucrative and more attractive. 
 
 Cape Toini, Tuesdai/, March 3, 1891. 
 
 TRKSBXT : 
 
 Sir J. I>. Bakkv (President), 
 Dean Holmes, I A. N. Rowan, Esq., 
 
 Dr. Berry, | liev. Coetzee. 
 
 Rev. Moon-ees, | 
 
 Rev. A. Miirratj examined. 
 
 2244. President.] You are a minister of the 1 )utch Reformed Churcli at Wellington, ^"- "*■■ ^"""v- 
 I believe? — Yes, _ ^ Miirch 3rd, iS9i. 
 
 2245. I believe you gave evidence before the Commission which sat in 1879 ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2246. Have you any other functions in the Dutch Refomied Church ? — I am 
 Moderator of the Synod of the Dutch Reformed Church. 
 
 2247. How many times have you been Moderat a-? — Four tijues. 
 
 2248. How manj' years have you been a minister of the Dutch Reformed Church? 
 — For forty years. 
 
 X 2
 
 158 
 
 Rfi: A. iturratf. 2249. Ilavo you had oonsidcrable oxperienco in the working of the educational 
 
 March ^rdi 1891. system? — I have. 
 
 2250. I [ave you any mission schools connected with your church ? — There is one 
 mission school at Wellington, but it is not under my direct supe^^dsion ; it is in charge 
 of u missionary. 
 
 22ol. Do you know whether the attendance of children is regular ? — lu Welling- 
 ton it is fairly ri'gular. 
 
 2252. What is the daily attendance in proportion to the number on the books ? — 
 I cannot give the accurate figures. 
 
 225;i Do you tliiuk it would he a good thing to have anytliing like compulsion, 
 for an otfiecr to be font round to see that children are not loitering in tlio streets duiing 
 school hours? — In towns like Cape Town something of the kind might be necessary, 
 but I hardly think it is so in the country districts. 
 
 2254. Have you seen Sir Langliam Dale's scheme for fourth class public unde- 
 nominational schools ?-— Yes. 
 
 2255. And you understand what is intended thereby ? — I think so. I take it 
 that there are two parts in the scheme; one is for the benefit of the poorer white 
 population, to have schools whore children can be taught at a lower rate than iu the 
 ordinary public schools, leaving the mission schools more for the coloured children. I 
 may say that the Synod expressed a wish that these fom-th class schools should bo 
 establisliod, but that they should be entirely imdeiiominational. As I understand it, 
 these schools would not be worked through the Cliurch, but through an ordiuaiv school 
 committee, or a special local committee, the mission schools being worked separately 
 under the Church until such time as the coloured population is able to be drawn into 
 the fourtli class schools. 
 
 225G. Do you think that is the best jdan ^ — Yes. That recommends itself to me. 
 
 2257. If these fourth class schools are brought into existence, do you think that 
 you would find guarantors coming forward to guarantee any deficiency that might 
 arise "r* — In Wellington you would, and in Worcester also. I may say that Sir 
 Laugham Dale has given us a grant of £30 a year for a branch school, as we have so 
 many poor children, and very low rates are charged there. It is managed by the 
 ordinary committee. The two other public schools have each contributed £15. I 
 think myself that the allowances ought to bo somewhat higher than those mentioned 
 by Sir Ijangham I)ale in the jiaper he presented to Parliament. He begins by saying 
 that the first allowance ought to be £40 in aid of the teacher's salary, where the dail^' 
 attendance ranges from 30 to 40. If those 30 or 40 can ouh' pay a penny or two- 
 pence a week, their fees do not amount to more than ,£10 or £12 a-year, and you can- 
 not get teachers for less than £60. I think, therefoie, instead of the Government 
 grant in aid being £40, it should be £00. If £00 is given to a country circuit school, 
 where there are 20 poor children educated, not loss than £60 should be given in the 
 cafe of a town poor school, if you get say 30 children educated, and £1 a month might 
 be added for tlie rent of the room. 
 
 2258. Would not j'ou be gi\ing more to these schools than to aided mission 
 schools ? — I think if the money is deserved, it should be given. There is a great 
 dearth of white teachers, as better salaries are offered in the Transvaal and Free State ; 
 and you cannot get a decent teacher for less than £60 a year. 
 
 225i'. Might it not perhaps be better to aid mission schools a little more and let 
 them do this work ? — Then the question comes as to whether it is a desirable thing. to 
 mix the white and coloui-ed children. I do not think it is. 
 
 2260. How could you prevent it in a public school ; wonld not the coloured 
 children be able to force themselves in ? — The mission school affords just as good an 
 education, and the minister of a coloui'ed congregation is generally anxious to have the 
 children under liis ii\flueuce. 
 
 2261. We hud that many clergymen who have mission schools do not object to the 
 mixture ; they say it is a good thing, and does the white children no ha:in, while the 
 coloured children are benefited. In Cape Town it would be very difficult to distinguish 
 between the shades of colour, would it not r* — My evidence must hardly be taken as of 
 any value with regard to Cape Town. I think (Jape Town ought to be treated entirely 
 1 y itself, but in country places a minister can ^\■ork among his coloured people better 
 when he sejiarates them, and the white children can also be taught better if tliey are 
 separate. Of course some ministers may like to have the white children under their 
 direct control, as it enlarges theii- sphere of influence. It is admitted that the mission 
 schools were estabhshed for the poor coloured children, and I think, if our undenomi- 
 national system is good, we ought to try and get all the white children brought 
 under it. 
 
 226J. Is it not the case tliat some of the undenominational schools are aided by 
 the Dutch Iteforraed Church, and in some cases the vestries come forwai'd as guarantors ?
 
 159 
 
 — In WelliDgton we have in the district eight or ten schools, but the Kerkeraad or ^«'- ^- Murray. 
 Vestry does not aid one of them, with the exception of what is distinctly a white j^archii^ iSfM. 
 mission school in a poor neighbourhood. We could only get £15 from Sir Langham 
 Dale, and the Vestry gives £10. If we could have a fom-th class public undenomina- 
 tional school, we might have this school brought under that, and the Vtstry would 
 prefer not giving the money. I do not know of any cases hardly where the Vestry as 
 a body becomes guarantor. 
 
 2263. There is nothing to prevent it, is there ? — No ; any body of men can become 
 guarantors- 
 
 2264. If they do, would not they practically be working these fourth class public 
 undenominational schools very much on the same Hues as the mission schools ? — No ; 
 I think the two would be entirely different. In the mission school, the missionary or 
 clergyman is the manager, and has paramount influence ; in the case of an undenomina- 
 tional school, the denominational teaching is restricted. If our undenominational 
 school system be good, why should it not be applied all round. Under that system the 
 public has a say ; that is at the root of the undenominational school system, whereas in 
 the case of a mission school, the public is excluded, and has no say. 
 
 2265. Except thi'ough the Government, which says whether it shall receive aid or 
 not. Would it not be advisable in the fourth class schools to allow the minority during 
 the time allotted to religious instruction, to send someone to give their children 
 denominational teaching ? — That is a new question which has hardly come before the 
 public or the Government yet. 
 
 2266. Bv. Berfi/.~\ Are not the managers instructed now to permit any religious 
 teacher to come into an undenominational school and give instruction to pupils who 
 wish it ?- That instruction is not compulsory. I do not see any objection to such a 
 plan. 
 
 2267. Her. Moorrei's.^ Is not there a vast difference between religious teaching 
 generally and denominational teaching ? — Yes ; but I think under our undenominational 
 system we are quite content to say that we have denominational teaching during the 
 time fixed. 
 
 2268. Dr. Beryi/.~\ Would you be in favour- of a system which enabled the 
 minority of parents in a school to ask their own minister to come and give religious 
 instruction to the childr'en ? — I have not considered that question much. I do not 
 know that I should be opposed to it. I should be much more opposed to a denomina- 
 tional system, whereby the Government aid was divided among a series of 
 denominational schools. 
 
 2269. Mr. Boican.^ Is it not a fact that although the managers in several of the 
 towns are members of the Dutch Reformed Chui-ch, still the churchwardens as such are 
 not the managers of the school ? — I do not know of any eases where the churchwardens 
 as such, are the managers ; it is not so in oirr owti case. 
 
 2270. They are not chosen because they ai'e members of the Dutch Reformed 
 Church, but simply because they are prominent men in the village, who take an active 
 interest in education ; is not that so ?- -Yes. 
 
 2271. Dean Holmes.'] Do you see any objection lo these foirrth class schools ha^ang 
 a separate body of managers of their own ? — Not at all, except that there might be 
 cases in which they would clash in the matter of lower fees. A fourth class sciiool 
 committee or bodj' of managers might Le anxious to increase the number of pupils, and 
 they might break down the fir.st or second class public school in the same town, tht^rc- 
 fore I think that either the managers of the first class public school should get up the 
 foiurth class school, or that they should have the appointment, in conjunction with the 
 Education Department of a separate local committee to watch the interests of the foui-f h 
 class school ; other-nise there is a danger of friction. 
 
 2272. President.'] How would you do with the children of those parents who are 
 so poor that they cannot pay the fees ; would you give them the right of entrance to 
 the fourth class school ? — UndoTibtedly. 
 
 2273. Under what circumstances ? — It shoidd be decided by the committee. 
 
 2274. If it is found that they are too poor, they should have a right to be admitted 
 free ? — The fee of a penny a week is so low, that almost all can paj- that, but there are 
 cases in our branch school where even that is not charged. 
 
 2275. I suppose you know how the present Boards of Management are consti- 
 tuted ?— Yes. 
 
 2276. Do you consider the guarantee sj'stem a good one ? — With us it has worked 
 extremely well, but I know that there have been difficulties in other places. 
 
 2277. What difficulties have you heard of ? — The guarantors have to pay lai-ge 
 sums out of theii- own pockets sometimes. I have known them to pay £5 or £10, in 
 order to keep a school going.
 
 160 
 
 Rfr. A. iiui-,,,,1. \>2~-^. Have yoiir guarantors acquired property for the school ? — Yes ; it is school 
 
 March JiT 1891 propi-'rty, bf'longiiig to tlu- scliocl ami to the public. 
 
 227!>. is it lauded property !'' — Yes. 
 
 22b(J. At the eud of three years the existing guarantors go out. Suppose there is 
 a change in the nature of tiie population for instance, and a new managemeut is started, 
 with diifereut ideas, would the new managers hare a right to the property belonging 
 to the old managers ?— Yes. The jiublic choose the present trustees, and the public 
 tliree years hence choose the new ones. 
 
 2281. Who are the trustees in your case? — The Board of Management. 
 
 228^'. There is a time between the going out of the old Board and the election of 
 the new, when the property is vested in nobody, legally : how would you propose to 
 give perpetuity of succession?' — That space of time is like a mathematical point. Before 
 the -'ilst of December, we elect a new committee, which does away with any difficulty. 
 
 2283. But a difficulty might exist in this way. At the end of three years they 
 go out according to law. Perhaps they got into debt, and somebody is required to be 
 connected with the property '( — NVe liavc felt ver^' little practical difficulty in that way, 
 and I cannot say I have thought the matter out. 
 
 22S4. If tlie present system of guaiantors is continued, in whom would it be wise 
 to vest the school property : would the ( 'ivil Commissioner answer under the control of 
 the Board of Management y — I should see no objection to that, or there might be three 
 trustees chosen by the committee as a permanent body, with a right always to fill up 
 any vacancy. If half the number of the managers were to retire by rotation, the suc- 
 cessors would be secured, just as with the Consistories of our Dutch lieformed Church. 
 
 2285. Would it do to substitute for this guarantee system, a sj'stem by which 
 the Board is elected by the ratepayers of the district ; the rates being responsible for 
 any deficiency '( — I do not know whether that would answer. In our district, the 
 present system has worked well, and I see great difficulty in a central Board iu a town 
 with large outlying country districts, because the interests of the town and the district 
 are often conflicting. It very often hajipens that people in the town are most anxious 
 to draw the country children there to board, and so make up a fine first class school, 
 whereas the country people jirefer to have a few district schools in which to educate 
 their children. I hardly think wo are ready for what you suggest ; the link between 
 town and country is not close enough, and you must look at the vast extent of some of 
 the districts. A central Board in the town would never answer. 
 
 2286. Supjwse this central Board is elected, not by the people in the town, but by 
 the whole district, could not all the scliools then be fau-ly worked through it ? — I have 
 m3" doubts. I think there are many difficulties in the way. A man, for instance, 
 might have to ride 60 miles to elect a member of the School Board. Their interest is 
 not great enougli in school work as it is, and the fact of having to ride a long distance 
 would tend to diminish it. If they have a local interest, it is far different, and much 
 more interest is taken iu education. Take the case of Wellington. We have a first 
 class public school, and round-about we have five or six second and third class public 
 schools, within twent}' minutes or half-an-hour of the town, to the success of which Mr. 
 kowan can testify. If the town were the place where the Board was elected, it would 
 be very difficult to give such a proportion to each district that the whole would be 
 fairly represented. Our country schools are worked admirably, but if there was one 
 central Board, there might be conllicting interests. It is different in a country like 
 England, wliere you are in close communication with each other ; the whole population 
 is merged into one so to speak. liere very many people live a long distance from the 
 centres, and there is very little communication. 
 
 2287. Dean Holmes.'] Supposing such a Board were elected and bodies of local 
 managers arranged for in every place, would that obviate j'our difficulty ^ — To 
 some extent it would, but it is far better to let the people of each little school district 
 elect their own body. A central body for holding the property is a different question. 
 In the ease of Wellingtciu, my schools are nearer to the village than they would be 
 almost in any parish in the country, but the five schools are all being worked admirably 
 under the present system, and I do not see what advantage would be gained by the 
 change suggested. 
 
 2288. l)r. Berry.'] If the ordinary fiscal divisions were parcelled out into small 
 districts, would your objections still hold '( — It woidd be just the same system under a 
 new name. Our country is not i ipe for that system yet. There are so many large 
 extents of barren country, and it would be very difficult to parcel out districts on the 
 map. A great deal depends upon circumstances. 
 
 2289. Have you a municipality at Wellington and the Paarl r* — Yes. 
 
 2290. Coidd this system be applied to mmiicipalities, do you think ? — I do not 
 think it is really needed. My own opinion is that the pressure connected with the 
 guarantee system is passing away. Formerly guarantors had to pay far more heavily
 
 161 
 
 than they do now. Diuing the last 12 years at Wellington, the guarantors hare never •^''- ^- Murray. 
 had to pay a penny ; they have learned to reconcile income and expenditure, and I MarcW^vZ i89 
 think generally that is so in the country. The question of apportioning the rates, of " 
 
 fixing the fees, and so on, would cause immense difficulty, and it is far better to slightly 
 increase the Government grants. 
 
 2291. In a district where the people are very poor, there may be no one willing to 
 come forward and guarantee, and the result is, that the children are neglected ? — The 
 fourth class pubKc undenominational schools would meet such a case. 
 
 2292. But you throw the burden on the Government, do you not ? — The Govern- 
 ment gets it from the country. 
 
 2293. It has been found imder the Herschel system, where the Government 
 supplied sccools for nothing, they were not generall}^ made use of ? — That spoiled the 
 people who were able to pay, but people have come to look at things differently now. 
 Moreover, fees would have to be paid in the fourth class schools. 
 
 2294. You are aware that a system of rates was advocated by De Mist in the early 
 part of this century, so that it is not unfamiliar to the Dutch mind, is it ? — That is so, 
 but looking at the difficulty connected with long distances, and the fact that the guarantee 
 system is getting to be better understood, I do not think that a rating S3'stem for 
 educational purposes is necessary. 
 
 2295. Pretiident.'] With regard to the question of language, do you think the 
 facilities at present afforded for giving instruction in the English and Dutch languages 
 are sufficient ? — I think they are fairly sufficient. 
 
 2296. Have you anything to propose on the subject ? — I am in favour of Dutch 
 being introduced into the Elementary examination as an additional optional subject. 
 
 2297. Is there not some little unfairness in that ? A boy who does not learn Dutch 
 gets no marks at all ; another who has learned Dutch has the advantage ; would it not 
 be better to have an alternative ; Dutch, or French, or Latin ? — The object is to 
 encourage Dutch. An English boy possesses certain advantages in knowing EugUsh 
 as his mother tongue. All unfaiiness could be obviated by the way in which the marks 
 for Dutch are coimted. 
 
 2298. A boy may want to go to Europe to complete his education, and he would 
 doubtless think it more useful to study French or Latin ; therefore, do not you think 
 they might be put as alternative subjects ? — I have been led to understand that teachers 
 think the Elementary examination includes enough practically already for what can be 
 required from candidates of the age of those who generally come up, and therefore it is 
 imdesirable to add anything more. Dutch, of course, would only be added to meet the 
 circimistances of the country. I think it would be difficult to introduce French or Latin. 
 That is not so much my private opinion as that of teachers with whom I have spoken. 
 
 2299. If you trust their judgment, you would exclude Dutch too from an educa- 
 tional point of view ; if the number of candidates for the Elementary examination is 
 only about 900, which is a small proportion of those who are being educated, would 
 there still be wisdom in allowing a Dutch paper to be added ? — Yes ; I think so, 
 because 900 represent many thousands. 
 
 2300. In what way ? — They are the pick of the schools. 
 
 2301. Then if they ai-e the pick of the schools, supposing a voluntary school 
 does not devote itself to Dutch at aU, but does devote itself to Latin, German, or 
 French, you exclude the pick of that school from competing on fair terms with the pick 
 of the other schools, do you not ? — I would not put them to any disadvantage. I 
 understand that teachers are anxious not to increase the work of the Elementary 
 examination, but Dutch occupies an exceptional position as being the language of so 
 many people in the conntrj'. To add French, German, or Latin, would be to increase 
 the work of the school without any distinct object. 
 
 2302. What woidd you think of this plan, to allow two sets of papers, one in 
 Dutch in aU the elementary subjects, and one in EngUsh the same, the boy who takes 
 the Dutch paper answering in Dutch all questions ? — Those who learn Dutch do not, 
 I think, want to learn it in opposition to English. 
 
 2303. But do j'ou think it would be -wise ; should not the object be to fuse the 
 two nationalities ':* — Yes. Those who are trying to encourage Dutch would wish that. 
 
 2304. Lr. Berri/.] Woidd it not be very objectionable in this way, that It wuuld 
 really be asking the University to set its seal upon boys who know nothing about Eug- 
 lish at all ? — Yes ; it would be one diffieidty, but I do not think that is the proposal. 
 Dutch would be brought into the Elementary examination as a separate branch, so 
 that boys would have full opportunity of being examined in English. 
 
 2305. If a boy at the Elementary examination is examined purely in Dutch, and 
 takes rank in accordance with his replies, then the University, if it sets its mark on 
 him, has no guarantee that he knows English at all, has it ':' — I do not think that 
 there is the slightest desire to discard English.
 
 162 
 
 Sei: . 1. M urrty 2-"506. With roparcl to thf ])ioposal to balance an optional Dutch papor by an 
 
 Marcli 3rd 1891. optional French or Latin paper, if that was introduced, would it not practically destroy 
 
 the elementary cliaracter of tho examination altogether ':* — That is what I said just 
 
 now was tiie opinion of teachers, that it would import too much work into tlie Elomen • 
 
 tary examination. 
 
 2307. You said that as the matter stands at present, a boy whose mother tongue 
 is Dutch, stands at a disadvantage against a bo}' whose mother tongue is English, but 
 do the results of examinations lately show that boys have been at any such disadvan- 
 tage ? — I believe that as far as results are concerned, there is no distinct indication of 
 that, but still practically wo know tliat it is a hard fight for a Uutoli boy. 
 
 230S. Is it not actually tho case that proper Dutdi, which the University could 
 alone encourage, is just as difficult for a Dutch boy to jjick up as it would be for an 
 English boy ? — No. 
 
 230!). You think a boy who speaks the ordinary colloquial Dutch would pick up 
 proper Dutch easier than an Eaglish boy who knows nothing about it ? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 2310. Would it be fair to a large number of boys in the EastorH Province of tho 
 Colony to make tliem submit to an examination in Dutch or else take a back seat at 
 the Elementary examination ? — I think the marking could be arranged in such a way 
 that English boys slioiild have no i.' justice done to them. Let the marking as at pre- 
 sent have reference to the English examination, just as it ever was, and let Dutch be a 
 separate subject, and in some way or other separate marks be given for it. 
 
 2311. You would be agreeable to let boys who take Dutch be ranked in a separate 
 list altogether ? — Yes, quite agreeable. 
 
 2312. And let the successful candidates be arranged according to their order and 
 merit ? — Yes. 
 
 2313. Would this be a parallel case to certain examinations in England, such as 
 the Science and Arts examination, where there is what is called a general list, in whicli 
 the competitors appear according to the merit of their answers, and tlien those wliolike 
 can take extra subjects, which do not count in the general list, but Some distinctive 
 mark is put on the certificate to show that such and such a subject lias been taken, bxit 
 the fact of taking it does not affect the candidate's position on the general list ? — I think 
 something of that kind would meet the difficulty. In the Elementary Teachers' exami- 
 nation two lists are published, one list of teachers who take English alone, and another 
 list of tlioso taking Englisli and Dutch. I think, however, that Dutch miglit count 
 for something in the aggregate number of marks. 
 
 2314. It has been urged that the introduction of Greek into the optional paper for 
 the Matriculation examination is a parallel case with the proposal to introduce a Dutch 
 paper into the School Elementary examination with marks ; do you think the cases arc 
 parallel ? — No ; I do not think so; because Dutch is the mother tongue with all those 
 wlio take it, so that they have an advantage. In the case of Greek in the Matricula- 
 tion examination, all those who take it are really on a level. 
 
 2315. Consequently there is no unfaii-ness in making it an optional subject with 
 marks, is there Y — Those whose mother tongue is Dutch have an immense advantage in 
 regard to the Elementary examination. 
 
 2316. With reference to the elementary school work in this country, is there any 
 need for further linguistic training, generally speaking ; considering the short time that 
 many pupils attend school, might it not be better employed ? — I think that we v/ant 
 training in other directions, but any instruction given up to the Elementary examina- 
 tion stage, does not enter into the linguistic or literary peculiarities of a language. Uji 
 to that stage, a boy or gii-1 is merely getting hold of the language as a medium of 
 communication. My idea is that there are many schools where instruction might b(! 
 given entirely in Dutch ; in cases where children cannot stay long in scliool, the 
 English they leai-n is of no value to them- Of course a great deal must be left to the 
 needs of the different portions of the community. 
 
 2317. And to some extent to their desires too ? — Yes. 
 
 2318. You said that a Dutch boy is at a disadvantage because the School Ele- 
 mentary examination is not conducted in his mother tongue, but has he not an 
 advantage from th'' fact that in commerce English is tho language generally used ; it 
 is in the air, so to speak, and a boy is constantly coming in contact with it. lias not 
 a Dutch boy an advantage in that respect wliich an Englisli boy would not liave in the 
 matter of his Dutch education ? — At Wellington, the district is intensely Dutch ; a 
 boy learns from his parents nothing but Dutch, so that as far as general intercoui'se is 
 concerned, the Dutch boy has no advantage at all there, and these boys form a largo 
 proportion of the candidates who go up for the Elementary examination. In a place; 
 like Cape Town, English is in the ai^-, as yaw. say, but Wellington is a thoroughly 
 Dutch district. In many of the country places, except what is taught in school, a 
 boy does not get a word of English.
 
 163 
 
 2319. But has not a Dutch boy a better chance of learning English, taking the **'• ^- Jfurray. 
 Colony generally, than an English boy has of learning Dutch? — Uudoubtedl^ ; and jjarch 3rd, 1891. 
 BO I say, put the names of successful candidates in two different lists, keeping the 
 
 marks separate. 
 
 2320. BeL-. Moorrees.] Is it not a fact that almost all our Dutch childi-en get some 
 instruction in Dutch in schools ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 2321. So that when they go up for the Elementary examination, they are weighted 
 with an additional subject for which they get no marks ? — The proposal is that they 
 should get marks. 
 
 2322. I mean as things are at present ? — Yes. 
 
 2323. Is not the proportion of our young men who leave here for Europe very 
 small ? — Yes, compared with the population of the country it is. 
 
 2324. Is it not a great advantage to those who stay in the country to know 
 Dutch ? — That is a relative question. There are many to whom it is no advantage, 
 and I fancy that is what decides the question in the long run. 
 
 2325. We have had a good many witne.sses before us who say that in the commer- 
 cial world it is a great advantage to know Dutch ; is that so ? — In some districts it is 
 an advantage. 
 
 2326. In Cape Town, for instance ? — Within certain circles ; but you will find all 
 the large wholesale warehouses do their business in English In all retail work, in the 
 midst of a Dutch population, Dutch is of great value. 
 
 2327. In the Civil Service examination Dutch is compulsorj', is it not ? — Yes. 
 
 2328. Young men going to the Transvaal or Free State have to know Dutch, so 
 that on the whole it is an advantage, is it not ? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 2329. Would you make a rule for the minority or for the majority of children, if 
 you had to pick between the two ?---I would try to meet the wants of all. 
 
 2330. Would you make a rule for the minority who go to Europe, or for the 
 majority who stay here? — I would make a rule for the majority. 
 
 233!. Mev, Coefzee.] Do you think it is necessary to encourage the study of the 
 Dutch language ? — In some places it is extremely necessary. 
 
 2332. Not in all cases ? — No. 
 
 2333. Taking into consideration the fact that Dutch and English are the officially 
 acknowledged languages of South Africa, do not you think on the principle of equity 
 they should have the same rights ? — The expression " the same rights " is such a very 
 vague one. I can hardly understand it. 
 
 2334. This is a bi-lingual country, where the two languages are Dutch and 
 English, and we have the information that nearly half the population are Dutch- 
 speaking, and the other half English-speaking ; in the Elementary examination we 
 find that English is taken as one of the subjects, and Dutch is not ; on the principle of 
 equity would it not be desirable to have them both on a level ? — I am in favour of 
 Dutch being taken up ; but to have them on a level, one would need to jirove that the 
 need for Dutch is actually equal to English. Throughout the country, and in our 
 schools, and even in the Government, I think it is not — we cannot say the two 
 languages are on a level. If you go thi'ough all the Government offices in Cape Town, 
 Dutch may be required, but the work is all done in English, and if you go through the 
 schools in the country, nine-tenths of the work is done in English, so that one can 
 hardly say that the two languages are on a level. It is another questitm whether this 
 is right or wrong, but as a matter of fact they are not. 
 
 2335. On the priticiple of equity, should they not be put on a level ? — I think 
 that is a question that must be solved by self-interest. People wiU use a language as 
 they find they need it. 
 
 2336. If you consider the matter from an ecclesiastical point of view, with regard 
 to om' Dutch-speaking population, and members of the Dutch Churches, do not you 
 think it is absolutely necessary that more should be done to encourage the study of the 
 Dutch language than is the case at present ? — I do not say everywhere ; but in many 
 cases I am anxious to have it so. 
 
 2337. In your opinion, if less marks are allowed to a Dutch paper than to an 
 English paper, would that be sufficient encouragement to ,a Dutch-speaking people to 
 go in for Dutch properly ?— If they have any love for their country they will do it 
 even without marks, but I do not wish to advocate a lesser number of marks, but 
 rather have a separate Hst, with full marks for Dutch. 
 
 2338. I understand you to say that under present circumstances a Dutch boy is 
 at a disadvantage ? — He is at a disadvantage. 
 
 2339. As far as your experience goes, do you think the teaching of the Dutch 
 language in the several institutions is, generally speaking, as thorough as the teathing 
 in English ? — AH the other branches for our examinations have to be taught in 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] * T
 
 164 
 
 Ret A. .Vn.roy. English, SO that there 18 three hours or throe and a half hours' practice in English 
 — compared with hiilf-iui-hour or an hour in Dutcli. The teaching in Dutch consequently 
 
 March 3rd, . ^^ never be as thorough. Apart from the other branches in wliich Euglisli is the 
 medium, I think the instruction in Dutch is good. 
 
 2340. In your opinion it would help on the study of Dutch if instruction were 
 given throiigli Dutch as the medium ? — It would undoubtedly, but I do not know 
 whethnr it would be desirable for other reasons. 
 
 2341. Would you mind stating some of the reasons ? — It would put a Dutch boy, 
 when he comes up for examination, at an immense disadvantage with his English. 
 
 2342. Is Dutch taught in all your schools":' — Yes; I think I miglit say in all 
 of them. 
 
 2343. Do all the pupils attend the Dutch classes ? — No. Formerly, we made that 
 a rule, in the Huguenot Seminary, as will appear from our reports, but we found it an 
 utter failure, and had to give it up. AVe persevered for two years. 
 
 2344. Suppose that Dutch is put on a level with English in the Elementary exa- 
 mination, would not that stimulate boys to go in for Dutch ? — It would, doubtless, but 
 I would have separate lists, us I have already said. 
 
 2345. Would there be any objection to having Dutch in the Elementary examin- 
 ation, like you have Greek in the Matriculation ? — I think so. It would be an injus- 
 tice to an English boy. 
 
 2346. But now it is not an injustice to a boy who does not take Greek, is it ? 
 Because all boys throughout the Colon}- are equally strangers to Greek ; they stand on 
 a level; but all boys throughout the Colony are not equally strangers to Dutch, and 
 those who have spoken Dutch from their birth have an immense advantage over those 
 who have never sj)oken it. 
 
 2347. President.'] "Wliat additional facilities do yoii think can be provided to meet 
 the wants of the children of the agricultural population ? — A matter that has come 
 before me repeatedly is this : what is to be done with the poorer children in the neigh- 
 bourhood of country scuools, who an.' not able to pay the fees, and who therefore aie 
 excluded from such schonls through their poverty. The allowance which the Govern- 
 ment gives is but small, £30 a year, if they can get twenty children together. There 
 might perhaps be ten poor children in the neighbourhood besides, and I think that 
 Government might give say £2 a head to have these children educated at tlie fann 
 school. 
 
 2348. How would the Government find out that they could not pay the fee, so 
 as to prevent imposition ? — There would need to be some sort of declaration to the 
 effect that the parents could not afford to pay the school fees. On a statement by the 
 local committee or the inspector that there were 8 or lOsuch children, acertainlunipsum 
 might be allowed in addition to the teacher's salary. There .are no doubt very many 
 children scattered throughout the coimtry whom we ought to try and get educated. 
 
 2349. How would it do to give a teacher additional remuneration for holding an 
 evening school, for an hour or an hom--and-a-half every evening in the week, for 
 coloured children, on farms ? — I think it might be desirable, but it would be very 
 difficult to work, because this class is very degraded and careless as a rule, and it would 
 require patience. You might get young girls to teach on farms, if it were known that 
 Government would give a small reward of £15 or £20. 
 
 2350. Is there any other means of reaching these people ? — Mission schools must 
 be encouraged. 
 
 2351. Mr. Rowan.'] What do you think of the plan proposed by Sir Langham 
 Dale in 1887, that volimtary schools actually doing good work should be aided in 
 some way, provided it does not prejudice the undenominational schools actually in 
 existence 't — My own impression is that there is no reason why they should not come 
 under the undenominational system. 
 
 2352. Rev. Coetzcc.'] Suppose a second school supported by the Government exists 
 in the same locality ? — If it is shown that the first school would not suffer by another 
 school being established, then it should be done. You would of course have to look at the 
 history of the thing, and consult the local committee before any steps were taken. They 
 would know whether there was a fair fiehl for a second school. If tlie committee 
 objected, then it would be for the Education Department to investigate the matter. 
 Of course a grant should never be given to a second school where there was a danger 
 of breaking down *^he first. 
 
 2353. Rev. iloorrees ] You might not always know that beforehand. The Volun- 
 tary school getting assistance from Government would perhaps be able to lower its fees 
 to such an e.\ter,t that it would break down the undenominational school in the place, 
 would it not ? — That is why I said you would have to look at the history of the thing. 
 
 2354. Would you bo in favour of this system applying to towns of a certain 
 population? — Yes, that was my idea.
 
 165 
 
 Mr. W. T. Birch examinod. 
 
 2355. President.'] You are, I believe, vice-principal of the South African College ^^^- , 
 
 School ?-YeS. ' i y K M.l^rcK. 
 
 2356. How long have you been connected with it? — Seven years. March 3rd, I89i. 
 
 2357. Mr. Eoican.'\ And you have been a teacher iinder Boards of Management, 
 have you not ? — Yes ; at Bui-ghersdorp, Beaufort West, and Cape Town. 
 
 2358. Did you ever experience any difficulty with regard to making up the 
 equivalent proiaded by Government ? — Yes ; in several cases. At Beaufort West we 
 had a great deal of difficulty in getting the money together. They used to raise it hy 
 means of bazaars, and all kinds of things, so that the teacher could be paid. We had 
 also a great deal of trouble about the school building. I believe the school building at 
 Beaufort West belonged to Mr. Pritchard. 
 
 2359. The school building was not built by the public ? — No ; it was an old 
 house which they turned into a school building. I believe it was Mr. Pritchard's in 
 the first case, and he sold it to a person named llorne, who converted it into a house 
 again. Then they moved into a buUding which was formerly used by the Scotch 
 Church, and they moved from there, and after I went away, I believe they went back 
 to their original quarters. 
 
 236U. What is yom' opinion about the guarantee System in this country ? — I do 
 not like it. 
 
 2361. Why not ? — Simply because there is no fixity of tenure. The Committee 
 of Management is only elected for three years, and at the end of that time it may 
 break up. 
 
 2362. Are not the teachers sometimes called upon to contribute towards the 
 support of the school ? — Not that I am aware of. 
 
 2363. From your experience of working this guarantee system, would you be in 
 favour of contributions from local bodies r* — I think I would prefer to see a rate 
 imposed, say by the Divisional Coimcils, and then supply any deficiency that might 
 arise from the school. Under the present system, if there is a chance of a deficiency, 
 the managers at once reduce the salaries, or they will not give an extra assistant, or 
 there may be many things wanted in the school which you cannot get. Of course 
 these men do not like to put their hands in their pockets to pay for the education of 
 everybody's children in the place. If they had a chance of being recouped afterwards, 
 they might be more Liberal. At Burghersdorp I believe there was no diflScult}' about 
 school funds. We had no rent to pay there, and the fees always met the expenses, the 
 salaries were paid, and there was no trouble whatever. 
 
 236-1. Do you think if school buildings were provided, the fees would be sufficient 
 to keep things going ? — Yes ; there would be no difficulty, but now in many cases they 
 have to pay very high rent for school buildings. 
 
 2365. Dean Holmes.'] Is not the present guarantee system a hardship to teachers. 
 If there is any little friction arising in the village, it may lead to the teacher being 
 arbitrarily dismissed, may it not ? — Yes ; if you happen to go into a village and make 
 an enemy of the chairman, you are done for, and have to leave. If the matter were 
 in the hands of the Divisional Councils, such things could not well happen. 
 
 2366. Mr. Roican.] Are both the English and Dutch languages taught in the 
 South African College school ? — Yes. 
 
 2367. Do you think that further facilities sliould be afforded for giving instruction 
 in the English and Dutch languages in connection with the Elementary and other ex- 
 aminations ? — I think that Dutch should be taught in all schools. I do not say that it 
 should be compvilsory for every boy in the school to learn it, but it should bo taught. 
 I am not in favour of Dutch being made compulsory in the Elementary or Honours 
 examination. It is quite right to have it compulsory in the Civil Service. I think 
 that Dutch should be put on the same level as French in English schools. If a boy 
 goes to an English school, French is not considered as compulsory, but he goes 
 gradually into it, and nearly all boys in England learn French. Of course if the parent 
 particularly requests that the pupils should not learn it, then he can learn Grerman, or 
 something else ; but considering that Dutch is so useful out here, I think it should bo 
 acquired. If a boy goes up for the Civil Service examination he must know it, and if 
 he is to bo an attorney or a doctor it is necessary. I think there should be the option ; 
 in case a parent does not want his child to learn Dutch, let it be so, but 1 'uteh should 
 be taught in all schools. No boy should bo compelled to learn it. 
 
 2368. You would not make Dutch compulsory in the Elementary examination ? — 
 No. It would spoil the Elementary examination. I would not have it a subject at 
 all. S( me masters think that the Elementary is a capital examination as it stands, but 
 I think that it should be altered altogether, and assimilated to the Oxford Junior 
 
 Y 2
 
 166 
 
 Mr. Local examinations iu England, a sort of step to the Honours or Matriculatiou. In that 
 
 » T. £,re . ^^^ ^^^ could havo Dutch as one of the subjects, and Latin, and so on, making them 
 
 March 3rd, 1891. Optional, and allowing the candidate to take what he pleased. That would give the 
 
 Dutch boy a chance, if he liked to shine in the Dutch language, to take it as a subject, 
 
 and the boy not wishing to take Dutch, might take Latin, French or German. 
 
 2309. Dr. Berry.'] You would have to postpone the examination a little if you 
 made that alteration, would you not, and make it at a later time in the boy's life '^ — No, 
 it could be at just the same time as it is now. Oui- boys go in for the Elementary 
 examination much younger than the general run of boys, because tliey have to go to the 
 College. 
 
 2370. Still, it would be a sign of greater advancement in school work than the 
 present Elementary examination, would it not ? — It would make a difference this way, 
 that mission schools and third class schools would be almost cut out of the Elementary 
 examination without they took Dutch. 
 
 2371. Would you cut them out if you put in Dutch ? — Yes, 1 think, more or less. 
 
 2372. Mr. Roican.'] That would depend upon the difficulty of the examination 
 very nuich, would it not ; if it were confined to reading, writing from dictation, and a 
 few questions on grammar, it woidd not have that effect, would it ? — I think so, as 
 the mission school teachers, with their large classes, could not give the time to another 
 language, and the examination would be certain to become harder in coiu-se of time. 
 
 2373. Ri'c. Coi'tzee.] Is Dutch taught in the South African College school ? — Yes. 
 
 2374. What time is devoted to the teaching of Dutch ? — An hour every day. A 
 Dutch professor attends every day. 
 
 2375. Do aU the pupils take Dutch ? — No ; out of about 110 or 112 boys, about 
 80 take Dutch. 
 
 2376. What do the others do during that time? — They take French, Latin, or 
 some other subject. 
 
 2377. Wliy would you not make Dutch a subject in the Elementary examination; 
 I sup2>nse you are aware that nearly half the white population is Dutch-8]ieaking ? — 
 I should have thought it was much less than that. I do not think the Elementary 
 examination shoidd bo interfered with — it should remain as it is, except it is made a step 
 to the Honours. 
 
 2378. As a question of equity do you think the present arrangement fair for 
 Dutch boys ? — I think most boys who go in for the Elementary examination know 
 English. Boys from up-country could more easily do an examination in English than 
 they could do it in Dutch. 
 
 2379. Is it not a fact that in all institutions more time is devoted to the teaching 
 of the English language than Dutch. All instruction is given through the medium of 
 the English language, is it not ? — In some schools, such as Middelburg for instance, 
 where there is a largo Dutch community, I think you will find it lialf and half ; but in 
 most places three or four hours English instruction is given to one of Dutch. 
 
 23S0. What is the medium of instruction ? — English all through. 
 
 2381. Does not that interfere to a groat extent with the teaching of the Dutch 
 language ? — I do not think so. The great objection to the medium of examination 
 being in Dutch is that you would have two sets of papers, and two sets of examiners. 
 
 2382. Would there be any objection to add Dutch to the list of subjects fixed for 
 the Elementary examination, and give those who take the paper extra marks ?— I am 
 opposed entirely to having Dutch in the Elementary examination at all, except as one 
 of a set of optional subjects, because I think the examination should not be interfered 
 with in that way. 
 
 2383. Why should it not be interfered with ? — If you add Dutch, it is a great 
 disadvantage to an English boy, you might give him the alternative of French or German. 
 
 2384. But is it fair to a Dutch boy ? — Dutch boys do very well in the Elementary 
 examination. All the Dutch boys in the Burghersdorp school have done well I know. 
 
 2385. Dr. Berrt/.] You said that in the South African College School, one hour a 
 day is given to the teaching of Dutch, would every boy learning Dutch have that hour 
 a day ? — Each boy has about three hours a week. 
 
 2386. Prciiidciif.'] Do you think that Dutch should be taught in all the schools ? — 
 Yes. But I would have an alternative subjcrt for the Elementary examination if it 
 was introduced there, either French, German or Latin. 
 
 2387. I understood you to say that yoiu- boys are more advanced than the 
 generality of boys ? — They go up for the examination at a younger age. 
 
 2388. When they go up for the Elementary examination, have most of them begun 
 to learn Latin ? — Yes. They began Latin when they are quite young. 
 
 2389. Does it form a part of their education ? — Yes. 
 
 2390. Do not you think, if an additional subject is introduced into the Elemen- 
 tary examination Latin should be given as an alternative subject, in view of the fact
 
 161 
 
 that it is afterwards a subject in the Higher examinations, and of its great importance *'^-. 
 
 in European education ':'— Yes. ^- ^^'"*- 
 
 2391. Although your boys have been actually learning Latin, the Elementary March 3rd, 1891. 
 examination does not test their learning at all, does it ? — No ; there is no test, except 
 
 by the Inspector. 
 
 2392. Br. Berry. \ Tou have been a teacher in country schools ; what is your 
 opinion as to the six mile clause as it affects the boarding department of public and 
 private schools. The capitation grant is not allowed, is it, to any boy or girl whose 
 home is situated vyithin six miles of a public uudenominational school P — Instead of 
 saying within six miles, I would say outside the boundaries of the municipality. 
 
 2393. Is there any hardship under present circumstances ? — Yes. Cliildron 
 living six miles away could not come into school every day. 
 
 Rev. Professor Hofmeyr examined. 
 
 2394. President.'] "What is your position at Stellenbosch ? — I am senior professor g^,, p,„f^^^,. 
 at the Theological College. ih/meyr. 
 
 2395. How many years have you been so ? — Since its opening in 1808. \~"a 
 
 2396. Have you had any experience in education beyond that ? — No personal "''''''> 
 experience ; but for many years I have served as one of the managers of the 
 
 two public schools, and am still president of the Board of Managers of one of these 
 schools. 
 
 2397. Do you think the present system of Boards of Management satisfactory ? — 
 Un the whole yes. 
 
 2398. Do you think you might supply the place of guarantors by a Board of 
 Management, elected by the ratepayers, the rates being chargeable for any deficieny 
 that arises ? — No doubt it would faidlitate matters verj' much, but the danger is you 
 might not then get as managers the men who know most about education, and who take 
 the warmest interest in it. 
 
 2399. Would you allow Municipalities and Divisional Councils to step in and 
 become guarantors ? — Yes, if it coixld be done in a manner that would leave the manage- 
 ment of the schools in the hands of those who know most about education. I fear 
 however that education would suffer if it becomes too dependent upon these bodies. 
 
 2400. Dr. Berry.] You would prefer the system as it is, the guarantors being 
 responsible for half the deficiency and Grovemment for half ? — Yes. 
 
 2401. You would prefer that to throwing the deficiency upon any local body, such 
 as the Divisional Councils or Municipalities P — Yes. Should however any of these 
 bodies step in for this purpose, they might rest satisfied with appointing one to act with 
 the managers. 
 
 2402. And be virtually a member of the Board of Managers ? — Yes. 
 
 2403. Rev. Moorrees.] What is yoiir idea as to the proposal to establish fourth class 
 
 ?ublic undenominational schools ? — I think they would supply a need which is growing, 
 n some places it is felt that the poorer class of white children must have a cheaper 
 education. If they are sent to public schools, it is too expensive. At the same time, 
 you must take care that these fourth class schools do not become opposition schools. 
 They shoidd be under the control of the present School Boards, and then they cannot 
 be in opposition to existing schools. We cannot give this poorer class of white children 
 a cheaper education now, because we have to pay so much for teachers and so on. It 
 should be also provided in regard to these fourth class schools that no guarantee is 
 asked. I think the minimum Government grant should be £50 a year, and, in 
 addition, half the rent of the building. Then we can afford to give a cheap education ; 
 the fees might be a penny a week perhaps. 
 
 2404. How would you do in Cape Town ? — There is a tremendous difiioulty in 
 Cape Town. I woidd say let the Education Department mark off the town into 
 certain Educational Districts, and let those who feel interested iu the poorer white 
 children meet their parents and let a proposal be made to them. Tell them you are 
 going to establish a school for them if they will work together, and then let each 
 district have a chance of establishing public undenominational fourth class schools, 
 leaving the details to the Education Office. 
 
 2405. Would you allow the management to remain in the hands of the present 
 managers of mission schools ? — Xo. 
 
 2406. President.'] What provision is made in the schools with which j'ou are 
 
 Personally acquainted for giving instruction in the English and Dutch languages 'r* — 
 think on the whole it is sufficient. I have nothing to suggest. I speak, having m 
 view the schools at Stellenbosch. 
 
 2407. Do j'ou think it would be wise to import Dutch into the Elementary 
 examination r* — Yes; but I do not think that those who take the Dutch paper should
 
 168 
 
 7fn\ Frtfeioor have any advantage over and above those who do not taJce it. I would havo a separate 
 B ofmtij T. paper, and a se]>arate return of the results of the examination. If Dutch is added, so 
 March 3rd, 1891. M to give an advantage to the Dutcli over the English pupils, it would only irritate 
 the English section instead of bringing the two nationalities together. 
 
 240S. Rev. MoorrecH^j^ You say that you are afraid that if Dutch is added to the 
 Elementary examination, it would irritate the English section, but do not you think 
 it irritates a great section of the Dutch popiUation to see their own language excluded 
 from the Elementary examination 'i — I would, for impartiality's sake, have one 
 examination of wliieli tlie basis is Dutc]i, and another of which the basis is English. 
 There may be jiarents who do not want their children to learn Dutch, and others again 
 who do not want their children to learn English. Let each have his own way. 
 
 2409. Have you anything to suggest to take away the cause of irritation ? — 
 I would say havo two sets of papers, one in Dutch and the other in English, and let 
 candidates take wliich they please, or as much of each as they choose. 
 
 2410. Would not that encourage the study of one language, whereas we wish to 
 encourage the study of English and Dutch bothr' — I do not think it an encouragement 
 if you force a thing on a certain section in the Colony. 
 
 2411. But we do not force it unless we make it compulsory, do we? — But it 
 really amounts to that. Young people who go up for the examination are, generally 
 speaking, ambitious, and you open the way for Dutch pupils to gain an advantage over 
 English pupils. 
 
 2412. Is not a Dutch boy studying English at a disadvantage as compared with 
 an English boy ? — I think if you ask the inspectors and teachers you will find that in 
 the long run Dutch childi-eu, as a rule, overtake the English children. If b<)3's get 
 into a school early enough, it is no impediment at all ; they breathe in the English 
 language as it were. If Dutch children are only to be a short time at school, then I 
 say do not bother them with English, but if they can stay long enougli, let them begin 
 with the A B of English, and go on to the Elementary examination, by which 
 time it will be found that they are equal to the English boys and even sometimes surpass 
 them. 
 
 2413. You said, if a boy stays only a short time at school, do not burden him with 
 English, so that it is clear the boy is hampered ? — If his time is too short of course ; 
 but I go by facts. In my opinion, Dutch cliiklren who go to school early overtake the 
 English children even before the time the Elementary examination stage is reached. 
 
 2414. In the case of a Dutch child going into an English school, has he not in 
 addition to learning the pronunciation, to learn the translation of every word, which an 
 Englisli child has not to do ? — Yes, though our colonial children take it in in a won- 
 derfully short time. 
 
 2415. So that the trouble to a Dutch child is double that which an English child 
 has, is it not J* — At fh'st yes, but the mind eventually gains by this necessary effort. 
 
 2416. But he has double trouble, has ho not ? — Only for some time. Tlic child 
 reaches the Elementary examination stage at the very same time as the English 
 child. You find Dutch children from families wliere only Dutch is spoken sometimes 
 even heading the examination Hsts, or standing very high. 
 
 2417. Dr. lien-!/.~\ These are not solitary instances, are they? — No. 
 
 2418. According to your experience, it does not matter whether you begin to 
 teach a child through the medium of it's mother tongue or not, does it ? — It all de- 
 pends upon how lung the child intends to remain at school. I refer only to pupils who 
 stay at school till the fifth or sixth standard. 
 
 2419. Then those who say that you must build on the knowledge which a child 
 has got are wrong : you need not do that ? — If children stay only lor a short time, 
 then the theory is perfectly correct. The very effort of overcoming the first difHculty 
 strengthens the mind and gives it a new force, which without this difficulty it would 
 not have got. 
 
 2420. Rev. Coetzee.'] I understand you to say that you would like to have two 
 sets of papers, one in English and one in Dutch, and leave it optional to the candidates 
 to choose which the}' will take ? — That is, if you wish to be perfectly fair to both sides, 
 and in order to .-ivoid irritation. 
 
 2421. As the schools are at present constituted, seeing that all subjects are taught 
 through English as the medium, do you think it would be practicable ?— That is 
 another question. Leave the solution of this question to local Boards, wlio are sup- 
 posed to know local wants and desires. 
 
 2422. What objection would there be to having Dutch in the Elementary exami- 
 nation on the same footing as Greek in the Matriculation ? — None, if none would 
 object. 
 
 2423. On the principle of equity, do not you think that both the acknowledged 
 languages, English and Dutch, should have the same rights. Would it not answer, if
 
 169 
 
 you took tho present five subjects in the Elementary examination and added to them ^"'- P^'-f'^"""' 
 an optional extra paper in l)utcla, and if a boy takes Dutch in addition to the five -Ho/Wyr. 
 subjects, give him marks for it ? — The only objection is the irritation it is sure to March 3rd, 1891. 
 cause. I would say that English people would gain by it. But wo cannot force a 
 benefit upon them. 
 
 2424. Then in order not to irritate a certain section, anotlier section must be 
 wi'onged ? — If, as I have already said, you have an English and a Dutch set of papers 
 for the Elementary examination, leaving it to the candidate to choose between English 
 and Dutch, none can feel wronged or irritated. 
 
 2425. Do you think there is sufficient time in the schools to encourage the study 
 of Dutch ? — At Stellenbosch sufficient time is given to the teaching of Dutch. J 
 myself and others encourage the study of Dutch. 
 
 2426. I \mder stood you to say that Dutch children drink in English very easily ? 
 — Yes ; if they begin early. 
 
 2427. Why do not you give facilities to a Dutch boy to drink in Dutch as 
 easily ? — -I do not oy eot to it. Leave this to the local boards. 
 
 2428. Would not this be a facility to introduce Dutch into the elementary exami- 
 nation as an optional subject ^ — I have nothing against it, if it is done in the manner 
 suggested by me. 
 
 2429. Dr. Berrii.'] Suppose there were two papers with the same subjects, 
 one exclusively in Dutch and one exclusively in English, the Dutch-speaking boy 
 taking the Dutch paper and the English-speaking boy taking the EngHsh paper, marks 
 being given for each, and then for the candidates to rank in one list, according to the 
 position they attain ; would you approve of that ? — It appears to me at present im- 
 practicable ; but, this is the only way of carrying out the idea of fairness. If people 
 wish it, let them have a chance, if possible, to realize this idea. 
 
 •2430. Would it not be liable to this objection, from an educational point of view, 
 that the Universitj' of the Cape of Gl ood Hope, which is practically a University under 
 the English Crown, would be thereby settiug its stamp of proficiency upon boys as to 
 whose English education it really knew nothing ? — I am too much an Afrikander to 
 saj^ yes to that. I say let those who believe there is a future before our Dutch 
 language, have a fair chance of helping it on, only let them do it in such a way as not 
 to injure or irritate others. 
 
 2431. Do not you think that the University, before it stamps a boy's proficiency, 
 should know something of his linguistic attainments ? — But if we say that this is a bi- 
 lingual nation, partly English and partly Dutch, it makes all the difference. 
 
 2432. There are in England twO examinations, known as the Normal Training 
 School and the Science and Arts examinations, and all the successful candidates rank 
 on a general list ; but they are allowed to take extra subjects. Their proficiency in 
 the extra subjects does not affect their position on the general list, but they get a special 
 endorsement on their certificate to show that they were examined in such and such a 
 subject ? — That is what for the present I have suggested. Give a Dutch paper, as 
 you say, but do not let it affect the general .standing in the final result. Let it be 
 endorsed on the certificate if the candidate satisfies the examiners. 
 
 2433. Rev. Coetzec.'] In the Civil Service examination, Dutch is compiilsory, is it 
 not ? — Yes. 
 
 2434. Does that seem to irritate any section of the population ? — Thai is a 
 different case. It is for a business purpose. 
 
 I 
 
 Cape Tomi, Wediiestlay, Hh Mareh, 1891. 
 
 PRESENT : 
 
 Sir J. D. Barky (President), 
 
 Dean Holmes. j Rev. Moori-ees. 
 
 Dr. Berry. | A. N. Rowan, Esq. 
 
 -SVr J. H. lie Vi//iers, K.C.M.G., examined. 
 
 2435. President.'] You are Chief Justice of the Colony,, and you were President of ^ ^ ,/^Vi7/i>r« 
 the Education Co mm ission which sat in 1879 ? — Yes. K.C.M.G. 
 
 2436. Have you seeu the questions submitted to us for consideration ? — Yes. 
 
 2437. With regard to the first point, the irregulai-ity of attendance at school ; we '^'^<''' '"'' '^'"■ 
 find as a matter of fact, that of the children enrolled on the books, 25 per cent, are 
 
 absent daily ; how do you think that irregularity can be corrected ? — I have not much 
 practical knowledge of the matter, but I should think that 25 per cent, is very large.
 
 170 
 
 f"j~;,.^ 24:58. It is also found that the number of children not on the school books who 
 
 K.C.M.(^.. * ought lo be there is pretty large ; have ycni any suggestion to make with regard to 
 
 that ? — I think the only practical remedy would be compulsory education and pmiish- 
 
 Miirch 4th, isni. j^g parents if their children between certain ages do not attend. If the children are 
 loitering about dm-ing school hour.'*, I think the parents ought to be held responsible. 
 
 24;J9. Would you have a truancy officer to take uj) children, and <an attendance 
 officer to visit the houses and deal with the parents ? — Yes ; but as an experiment, I 
 should begin with the more populous places like Capetown, Urahamstowu, Port Eliza- 
 beth, and King Williamstown, and then gradually extend the system to municipa- 
 lities. 
 
 2440. Where would you take the children to who are incapable of paying any- 
 thing ? — I think if they are not able to pay, a certificate to that effect should be given 
 by two housolioldors. The education ouglit to be free for such children in all public 
 undenominational schools of the third class. 
 
 244 1 . Would j'ou force them to take these children who are going without any 
 education at all Y — -The Government should provide the funds. 
 
 2442. At present we find that there is a large number of poor children, both black 
 and white, going to the aided mission schools ; do you think that room sliould be found 
 by coming to terms with the managing bodies of third class public schools!' — You 
 cannot expect private bodies to educate these children without any charge. 
 
 2443. But the scliools are aided by the State, are they not ? — They would receive 
 no aid in respect of the particular children sent, and in respect of those childi-en whose 
 jjarents are wholly unable to pay, and who can produce a certificate to that effect, I 
 think it is the duty of the State to provide them with education. In what schools that 
 education should be given is another question. If the mission schools are willing to 
 take them they might serve the purpose. 
 
 2444. Have j'ou seen Sir Langham Dale's proposal with regard to fourth class 
 public imdenomiuational schools ? — No, I have not. 
 
 2445. Do you think the present system of guarantors a good one, and shoidd it 
 be continued ? — My own opinion still is what it was when I drafted the report of the 
 Commission of 1S79, that the guarantee system cannot be a lasting one. The objec- 
 tions whicli I have to it are fully set out in the report of the Commission. One of the 
 chief objections is that it is really a fluctuating body. The Board are not incorporated, 
 and tliey have U(j power to hold or mortgage property ; and in many otlier ways they 
 labour under difficulties which a permanent bod}' would not labour under. My opinion 
 still is that the timr has arrived when something in the nature of School Boards ought 
 to be established, elected by the educated ratepayers of each district, and that such 
 School Boards, or whatever you choose to call them, should be properly incorporated. 
 
 2446. How would you incorporate them ? — By Act of Parliament. I would have 
 a general Legislative Act, and incorporate them under such Act. 
 
 2447. And let the. rates be liable for any deticiency that may exist, the Govern- 
 ment contributing half as they do now ? — That is my opinion. Of course there should 
 be a strict audit, and any deficiency should be make good, half by the Goverument and 
 half by the several divisions. 1 think a very proper body to levy the rates would be 
 the Divisional Council of each district. 
 
 2448. The rates woidd not be liable for the whole half, would they, because the 
 fees would contribute ? — Of course the fees would contribute, and in many cases there 
 would perhaps be no deficiency. The Government would continue to make the grants 
 in aid which they di now. 
 
 0449. Do yoxi think if that was thoroughly understood, there would be any serious 
 opposition to it by the ratepayers in the onimtry ? — It would be impossible to carry an 
 Act of Parliament, embodying my views, unless the wishes of the people were to that 
 effect of course. If once such an Act is carried, I should think there would be no 
 further objection to it ; the difficulty would be to carry the Act. 
 
 2450. Do not you think the effect of carrying such an Act would be that the 
 people in each district would take a more permanent interest in education? — I certainly 
 think that would be one of the effects. 
 
 2451. It has been suggested that this difficulty might arise, that the towns would 
 help themselves to most of the educational media, and the country would fare badly 
 under such a system ? — I believe that a similar objection is made now with regard to 
 Divisional Councils, that in many cases the towns and villages get the greater part of 
 the rates expended in their neighbom-hood. 
 
 2452. Dran HolmeH.'\ Would you be in favovu- of having a high quaUficatiou 
 for voters, as in the case of members of Parliament and members of Divisional 
 Councils ? — I certainly think the electors ought at least to be able to write theii* name. 
 I would say that the electors should be those entitled to vote for members of the 
 Divisional Council.
 
 171 
 
 2453. Would you have a Board, to be in command, so to speak, of a certain area, f^rir 
 with local managers for different schools in that area ? — That is what I wouhl propOHe. K.aM.G.**^'' 
 
 It would be the duty of the Education Department to parcel out the districts over 
 
 which these different School Boards would have jurisdiction, and those districts should *^"«1» ■'"'' l*^^- 
 be so parcelled out that they all fall within the same division. 
 
 2454. You would assign to the Central Board the duty of deciding as to the 
 educational needs of the district, and leaee to the local managers the internal arrange- 
 ments of the schools ? — That is what I should do, but the managers would be respon- 
 sible to the Boards. 
 
 2455. Then the same system that applies in England would apply here ; the 
 School Board would call upon the Divisional Council to levy a rate, and any deficiency 
 would be paid therefrom ? — Yes. 
 
 2456. Dr. Berr//.^ In the case of poor children, you would make the Govern- 
 ment responsible for the cost of their education ? — Yes. 
 
 2457. Would you require local bodies to share in that expense to any extent ? — 
 No. I would leave that entirely to the Government. I consider it the duty of the 
 State to provide education for those who are unable to pay. 
 
 2458. Would you be in favour of giving the Central School Board an area or 
 district, and power to allocate the Grovernment grant given to that district in accordance 
 with its particular needs, or would you still be in favour of Grovernment apportioning 
 the grant through the Education Department to individual schools ? — I think the 
 different School Boards ought to some extent to be under the control of the Education 
 Department, and no important steps should be taken without its consent. 
 
 2459. Would you be in favour of the Government grant to the. school area being 
 given in one lump sum to the Central School Board, and being by it allocated to the 
 various schools within the area, subject to the revision of the Education Department? 
 — The Government grants in aid would be given as heretofore, and then at the end of 
 the year, if there is any deficiency in the accounts of the School Board, such deficiency 
 is certified to the Education Department, and thereupon the Edvication Department 
 gives notice to the Government to that effect, and to the Divisional Council : and then 
 one-half the deficiency is made good by the Government and paid to the School Board, 
 and the other half is made good by the Divisional Council of the district, and paid 
 over to the School Board. 
 
 2460. A proposition has been made that the whole of the Government grant 
 payable for schools within an area or district should be given to the Central Board of 
 that area, and by it apportioned to the schools within the area in accordance with local 
 needs ? — I have not given that matter much consideration, but I think that the grant 
 should be divided by the Education Department dii-ect. 
 
 2461. There has been another proposal that any school area choosing to rate itself 
 for educational purposes should be entitled to get from the Government a grant equal 
 to the amount which it raises from the rates and fi-om school fees within its area ; 
 would you be in favom- of that ? — No ; I should not. 
 
 2462. What would be the objection ? — The objection is that there would be no 
 sufficient control over the expenditiu'c of the money. 
 
 2463. Still, there would be a strict audit insisted on, woidd there not ? — I should 
 prefer the system I mentioued, that if there is a deficiency after the Government grant 
 has been made and after the school fees have been paid, at the end of the year, that 
 deficiency is to be made up, one-half by the Government and one-half by the local rates. 
 I do not propose to disturb any system under which the present grants in aid are given, 
 but what I say is, if the grants in aid have already been made and allocated, and the 
 school fees have been paid, and a deficiency still remains in the school accounts, it 
 should be made up in the way I have just mentioned. 
 
 2464. President.'] Instead of making the guarantors liable as now for the whole 
 deficiency, you would let that deficiency be apportioned between the Government and 
 the local rates ? — That is what it really comes to. I would substitute the joint liability 
 of the Government and the Divisional Covmeils for the liability of the present 
 guarantors. 
 
 2465. Rev. Moorrees.] In a large district like Victoria West, would it not bo 
 difficult for the Central Board to know the wants of the particular wards ?— In such a 
 case there might be two School Boards in the district, and that com-se might prevent the 
 difficulty suggested by the President, of tlie villages haviug more power on the School 
 Boards than the outlying districts. In the case of a large district, like Victoria West 
 for instance, I should say the Education Department, in parcelling out the districts, 
 might have two or even more Boards withm the same district. 
 
 246G. Woidd you have the Bill introducing School Boards permissive or com- 
 pulsory ? — In regard to public undenominational schools I would make it compulsory. 
 [G. 9— '91.] Z
 
 172 
 
 Sir 24fi7. Drati Jlohnen.'] Would yo\i have it permissive in the case of mission schools ? 
 
 "^ K CjPq""' — ^^s ; because they are really maintained at the expense of the different churches. 
 
 '__ ' 2468. President.'] Would you place the mission schools in any way under, or in 
 
 Mhrch itb, 18»1. connection with these Boards? — Not so long as they remain mission schools, out I think 
 that the iSchool Board system should be undenominational. For my own part, I should 
 not be sorry to see some provision, whereby no more mission schools should be 
 established, no new ones. The existing ones might bo left ; but as to future ones, if 
 they are established, I think they should be under the School Board system. 
 
 24(i'J. Nearly all the coloured classes go to these mission schools; would you let 
 them come in under the undenominational system too ? — Certainly. 
 
 247U. Do not you think it is some aid to secular education if you get the 
 enthusiasm of religious bodies ; and is not the work more cheaply done ? — Yes ; I would 
 maintain all the existing mis-'-ion schools. 
 
 2471. Where it is found that the mission schools work better, would you not aid 
 them to a certain extent, with tlie approval of the Superintendent-General of Educa- 
 tion ? — Tlie difficulty of bringing these schools under the School Board system would 
 be that that system would be maintained, in part at all events from the public rates, 
 and ther.'fore it is not fair that they should be in any way denominational in their 
 character. 
 
 2472. The money comes out of the general taxation, does it not ? — I am assuming 
 that the system is established which I have suggested. If that is not adopted then I 
 see no objection to the mission scliool ."iystem being extended. 
 
 2473. Even if it is adopted, would it not he possible to have mission schools aided 
 by the general Government to the extent to which they are aided now, and possibly in 
 certain cases where it is found that they do work very fairly to aid them a little more ? 
 — Yes; that might be done. 
 
 2474. Dean Hnlmes.'] Suppose the present system is retained in its integrity, 
 would you be in favour of a larger grant being given to mission schools. At the 
 present time no mission school can receive more than £75 a-year, so that there is no 
 inducement to managers to take more than a certain number of children ? — It is not a 
 matter that I am in a position to express an opinion about, but I do not see any 
 objection. 
 
 2475. J/r. Rowan.'] Would you be in favour of a nominee School Board. For 
 instance, if tlie School Board sjstem is introduced, the j)rincipal contributories would 
 be the Divisional Council, the Municipalitj', the Government and the School Committee. 
 If there were nominees from these bodies, would not that answer the same purpose as 
 if the Board was elected by what you would call educated ratepayers ? — I believe that 
 the nominer system would give you better men than the elective system, but if the 
 rates are to be liable, the ratepayers must have a voice. 
 
 247G. But the ratepayers of the division would have a voice through the Divisional 
 Council, the ratepayers in the town would have a voice through the Municipality, the 
 Government would have a voice through its members, and the School Committee the 
 same, would it not ? — Perhaps that might be a way of meeting the difficulty. I 
 believe myself that sreh a system would give you a better class of men than if they 
 were elected on a wholly popular basis. It would prevent an increase in the number 
 of elections, and at the same time it would in an indirect manner represent the wishes 
 of the ratepayers. 
 
 2477. Dr. Berry.] Would you make any special provision with regard to districts 
 where the greater number of schools are mission schools attendt-d by natives ? — I 
 should say witii regard to such districts that the School Board system should be post- 
 poned until the district is fit for it. I woiild leave it optional to the Education Depart- 
 ment as to the time when it is to be introduced into each jiarticular district. Where 
 in any district the existing mission schools provide for all the needs of the population, 
 I suppose the Education Department would not interfere. 
 
 2478. Dean Holmes.'] You would make it analagous to what it is in England ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2479. President.] Do you know what facilities are now given for instruction in the 
 English and Dutch languages r' — I have not much practical acquaintance with the 
 actual instruction given, but I know what the system pursued by the University is in 
 regard to examinations ; and I know also that there is a feeling in certain quarters that 
 greater prominence ought to be given to the teacliing of the Dutch language. With 
 regard to these matters, I still adliere to the views I expressed when drafting the 
 report of the Education Commission of 1879. You will find it in section 17, which 
 reads as follows : " With reference to modern languages, we are of opinion that addi- 
 tional facilities for the teaching of the Dutcli language imght, if possible, to be provided. 
 It should not be forgotten that this is the language, in a modified form no doubt, of tlie 
 greater portion of the pojjulation; and tliat ior children of Dutoh-speaking parents.
 
 173 
 
 the ability to read in Dutch is as good a test of their having received an Elementary •^"" 
 
 education ; as the ability to read in English in the case of the children of English- vicif'i"' 
 
 speaking parents There are some who think that the English langiiige is destiued, ' 
 
 in the course of time, to supersede the Dutch language altogether; while others are of Marc'. 4th, I89i 
 
 opinion that the two languages will always continue to exist, side by side, in the 
 
 Colony. It is not necessary for us to decide between these conflicting views, but oii« 
 
 thing is sufficiently clear, and that is that the English language has so many obvious 
 
 advantages in its competition with Dutch, that it needs no ai'tificia' encouragement 
 
 in a national system of education. The evidence given before us le ives no room to 
 
 doubt that there is a growing desire on the part of the farming popidatiou to have 
 
 their children instructed in the English language. It is however ei[ually clear that 
 
 there are many who object to having the English language forced upon them, and that 
 
 others again, with every desire to promote the general education of their children, do 
 
 not possess the means of having them taught any other language than that with which 
 
 they are familiar. Now, we hold that the State has no right to demand more of any 
 
 parent than that he shall have his children instructed in the elements of knowledge. 
 
 If they are able to read, write, and do Elementary arithmetic, the fact that Dutch has 
 
 been the medium of instruction, ought not to weigh against them. It is for this 
 
 reason that we are of opinion that all restrictions as to the language wluch is to be the 
 
 medium of instruction shovild be removed." 
 
 2480. Do you know whether the recommendation of the Commission has been 
 carried out — In the University examinations for instance, do you think everything 
 is provided to meet the requirements of the case ?— I think there is not much room for 
 complaint; at the same time, I see no real objection to meeting the views of those who 
 advocate an additional paper in the Dutch language. I think the great object should be 
 to attach all classes to our system of education and to the university system, and if 
 by means of a concession of this kind it could be done, I see no objection to it. 
 
 2481. Would not the effect of having this adilitioual paper and giving marks for 
 it be such as to cause some candidates not to compete ? — I do not think that would be 
 the practical effect. I think the practical effect would be to imluce the more promis- 
 ing children who are anxious to get good marks to leai'n Dutch as well as English, 
 and no harm certainly could be done by it. 
 
 2482. Could not Latin and French be introduced, and candidates given an oppor- 
 tunity of selecting between the three ? — My own opinion is that it is far better for 
 Cape children to learn Dutch than Latin or French. I do not think that the Latin is 
 of any service to children who go in for the Elementary examination, and as to 
 French, I should think that Dutch would be much more serviceable in this country. 
 
 2483. Is it not a fact that in many schools Dutch is not taught at all, and this 
 Elementary examination being open to all schools, both voluntary and State, is it not 
 a wise thuig to have it so that in every paper there should be a fair competition between 
 all in the subjects of tuition ? — I do not think the concession would be unfair. As is stated 
 in the report I just now referred to, we must bear in mind that Dutch is quite as 
 widely spoken in this country as English is, and it does not seem to be unfair tha* 
 there should be an additional paper in the Dutch language. In a few cases no doubt 
 it might act unfairly towards some children, but that would be a very small sacrific'; 
 compared with the advantage of securing the good feeling of the Dntch-speaking 
 population towards our system ('f education. 
 
 2484. But if the addition nf a Dutch paper does not secure it, would it not be 
 a reason for trying to do so ?— If it would not secure it, then there would be no neces- 
 sity for it. For my own part, I have not much belief in little boys learning Latin for 
 the Elementary examination. I would much sooner see them learn the elements of 
 physical science. 
 
 24^5. Would you make Elementary science a subject for the examination ? — I 
 certainly would. 
 
 2486. Could it not be arranged for a Dutch paper to be added, and then let it 
 appear on the ceitifioate of the Elementary examination that such and such a candi- 
 date has taken the additional subject and passed in a certain position, whatever it may 
 Ije Y — Of course that might bo done ; but it would not give the satisfaction which the 
 other proposal woidd give. 1 do not see where any injustice woulil come in, as it 
 would be open to all to take tbe additional paper. 
 
 2487. In the schools on the Frontier I take it that very few children learn^ Dutch, 
 it is not spoken very much in Graham's Town, Port Elizabeth, or King William's 
 Town, is it ? — The chances are that those candidates will do their EngUsh paper all the 
 better if they do not take the Dutch paper ; but the more promising candidates will 
 probably deem it to their advantage to take the additional paper in Dutch, and probably 
 beat many Dutch boys on their own ground. I think if the University Council were 
 
 Z Z
 
 174 
 
 ^"y „ to yield upon this point, it would give satisfaction to a large number of those who think 
 k c'm o"^'' t^'^t the Dutch langiiage hai not fair ailvantages compared with English; and if we 
 
 can reconcile thos© people hy a very slight concession, which it seems to me would 
 
 March 4th, 1891. YetAly not do injustice to anybody, then it ought to be done. Besides, the English 
 language has such undoubted advantages in other ways, that this slight concession could 
 not be regarded as giving an unfair advantage to Dutch. 
 
 2488. Mr. Roicdit.l You are aware that in the Matriculation examination, Gbeek 
 it an optional subject, and the marks comit all the same ? — Yes. 
 
 2489. Do not you think that such a concession could also be made in the case of 
 the Elementary examination, if Dutch is taken as one of the subjects':' — Yes. 
 
 2490. So that a boy taking Dutch, would have the advantage over another boy not 
 taking Dutcli, by the number of marks assigned to the Dutch paper? — -Yes. It should 
 be quite optional. I wcjuld not force children to take Dutch, that would be quite unfair. 
 
 2491. In regard to Greek, marks are given to induce candidates to take up the 
 subject ; are they not 'f — Yes ; I understand it is so. 
 
 2492. Dr. Iierry.'\ Teachers say that the School Elementary examination was 
 never intended to be final ; it is only a step to higher training, and they complain that 
 the great want in Colonial education is thorough grounding, which iu their oj)inion is 
 not likely to be given by linguistic teaching, but by teaching in other subjects ; would 
 not the introduction of a I hitch paper into the Elementary examination tend to en- 
 courage lingiustic training at the expense of that other teaching which they find to be 
 so necessary and valuable 't — I should propose that this training should be thorough 
 also. Of course if the proposal were to make Dutch compulsftry, then there would 
 be an objection ; but it would be entirely optional ; and it is for the teacher to see that 
 it is not a mere smattering that is obtained, but a thorough grounding in both lan- 
 guages if a boy or girl chofises to take both. 
 
 2493. The object being to obtain marks, does not the distribution of the examina- 
 tion over a wide number of subjects tend to encourage a superficial kind of education ? 
 — I do not think the number of subjects would be too wide if Dutch were introduced as 
 an optional subject. 
 
 2494. Would not the fact that marks are given for it on the general Ust tend 
 practically to make it a compulsory subject ? — It would not tend to make it compul- 
 sory ; it would teud to induce more children to study Dutch. 
 
 249-5. Is not that really the same thing ? — I do not look upon it as the same 
 thing. The effect would no doubt be to induce more to learn Dutch, but it would 
 still be optional, as it was before, and many candidates might find it to their advan- 
 tage to take Engli.sh alone, instead of English and Dxitch. 
 
 2496. In the Normal Training School examination in England, and the Science 
 and Arts examination, there is one general list published of the results, and then if a 
 candidate passes in any particular subject it is endorsed on his certificate ; woidd not 
 some such system meet the difficulty that has been raised ? — It depends upon whether 
 the proposal would satisfy those who tliink tliat tliey labour under some grievance. If 
 it woidd not satisfy tliem, I should say leave the present sj'stem undistm-bed. If, how- 
 ever, by a slight concession we can obtain the good \\ill of a large proportion of the 
 population and get them and the teachers to work harmoniously with our national 
 system of education, the experiment is worth trying. 
 
 2497. The difficidty is not so much as to giving a concession as the belief that 
 this alteration will tend to hamper education, and in some aspects impair it ? — I do not 
 think that it windd hamper education, because it can do no boy or gii-1 any hanu to 
 learn an additional language. No doubt manj' of the teachers object to it, but I 
 believe that their objections will vanish should effect be given to the proposal. 
 
 2498. Preside II t.~\ What additional facilities do j-ou think can be provided to meet 
 the wants of the children of the agricultural popidation ? — I think that district 
 boarding schools have proved, so far as I have been able to judge, verj' successful, and 
 I am of opinion that the system ought if possible to be extended. As to the education 
 of children in the more outljing districts, whose parents are imable to send them to 
 boarding school, I think there has been a great improvement since the report of the 
 Commission of 1879. The present system only needs extension, but I believe myself 
 that if the system of School Boards were established, we shoidd have still greater facili- 
 ties afforded for the children of the agricultural population. I think such a system 
 woidd give the people veiy much interest in education, and induce the farmers in the 
 outlj'ing districts to insist upon the wants of their children being attended to. 
 
 T/>f Hon. Mr. Juntire Smith examined. 
 Mr.jmticeSmtih. 2499. Prosiidoiit.'] You are one of the Judges of the Supreme Court ? — I am. 
 
 2500. Have you seen the questions submitted to this Commission '^ — Yes, 
 
 March 4th, 1891.
 
 175 
 
 2501. It is found that in Cape Town about 25 out of every 100 children on the The Hon. 
 books do not attend school daily, and it is also found that a number of children who •'''■■■^'"'^« *""'*• 
 ought to be on the books are not there. How do you think this irregularity can be.st be March 4th, 1891. 
 cured ? — I think that some school in the nature of a raggf-d school should be estab- 
 lished, and that all boys and girls foand loitering about during school hours should be 
 compelled to attend such school. I doubt whether a general system of compulsory 
 
 education could be carried out. 
 
 2502. At whose expense would you establish it ? — The body that establishes the 
 school should be entitled to a grant in aid from the public funds. 
 
 2503. Between what ages would you compel chUdren to attend school ? — Between 
 or 6 and 13. 
 
 2504. Dean Holme/i.'] If they passed a certain standard, should they be exempt V 
 — Yes ; I would not interfere with them then ; but the evil I complain of is the number 
 of boys found loitering about the streets plapng and gambling, and getting no educa- 
 tion at all. 
 
 2505. President.'] Would you have these ragged schools in connection with the 
 mission schools ? — I would have all the scliools under the Education Department. 
 
 2506. Would you allow the Education Department in certain cases, where it 
 thought fit, to make terms with the mission bodies for the purpose of receiving children ? 
 — If this question means, should additional grants be made from the public funds to 
 missionary bodies upon the condition of their receiving children compelled to attend 
 school, that would be a matter for the discretion of the Department acting in accordance 
 with the Education Acts. Probably objections would be raised to compelling boys of 
 one denomination to attend schools of another denomination. 
 
 2507. If 3'ou have compulsory education, you must have some place to put the 
 children in when you find them ; would you put them into the undenominational 
 schools ? — I think that certain buildings could be appropriated for tlie purpose, but 
 that is a matter of detail. 
 
 2508. Do you think any additional facilities can be provided to meet the wants of 
 cliildren of persons employed on the Hues of railway!' — I think there are already 
 facilities afforded, but I am not in a position to give any opinion on that point. 
 
 2509. What steps do you think should be taken to give Boards of Management 
 perpetual succession, and provide for the tenure of public school property ? — I think if 
 the property were vested in the Superintendent-General of Education and the Civil 
 Commissioner of the district, it would meet all requirements. I do not see what good 
 is to be gained by incorporating Boards of Management It is not like the case of a 
 municipality, which is sure to exist ; a school may be shut up altogether. 
 
 2510. But suppose it is shut up, and the property is, as you suggest, vested in the 
 Superintendent-General of Education and the Civil Commissioner ? — Then if there 
 is no school establislied within a certain time, the property obtained by Government 
 grants should be sold for the benefit of the Department. I do not see what particular 
 object is to be gained by incorporation. 
 
 2511. Do you think the present guarantee system is a good one ? — I think it 
 works fairly well. Under the present system. Divisional Councils and Municipalities 
 can establish schools if they like ; but if you change the system, great difficidty would 
 be experienced. Ton would have to convene a meeting of householders and impose a 
 rate, to which there would be great opposition, and perhaps you would not get a school 
 estabUshed at all. I think the present system would work fairly well, but for what I 
 may call the caprice of the Government. As far as my experience goes, great difficulty 
 has been fotmd with regard to buildings. Perhaps an additional room or some repairs 
 are wanted, and the Education Department is applied to. The Department replies that 
 the Government has refused to put anything on the estimates, and the result is, that 
 the improvements cannot be carried out. My opinion is that Government should place 
 a certain snm every year en the estimates for school buildings, say £10,000. I may 
 mention an instance." I was requested a few weeks siace to apply to the Education 
 Deitartment for a grant for an additional school-room, whether tlio Department woidd 
 assist on the £' for £ principle, which has been the usual custom. The Superintendent- 
 General of Education replied that his vote had been cut down and he could not do it, 
 his insi ructions were nwt to put down any biuldiug grants. I think therefore, there 
 should be a fLxed sum placed on the estimates every year for school-building purposes. 
 
 2512. De(i)i Ro/tne.s.] Would £20,000 be required at the present time, do you 
 think for school buildings ? — There are a great many schools now, and the expenses 
 are heavy. Suppose a new school is to be established, it is very hard on the district if 
 they cannot get any assistance. 
 
 2513. Rer. Moorrets.] Do you think the Government should pay half the rent of 
 buildings ?— Yes. Generally speaking, aid is given on the £ for £ principle. I do 
 not think that you can cany out the rating principle practically. The people who had
 
 176 
 
 The Hon. to find tho money would expect to be represented on the Board, and I doutt whether 
 Ur. Jutttee Smalt ^^^ woiJd thou get as good a working body of managers as you have at present, men 
 March 4th, 1891. who take a real interest in education. 
 
 2biA. rvfsiilentA What do Vdii think of .Sir ]janghani Dale's sclicme for establish- 
 ing fourth class public uudeuoininational schools ? — I think there is a^reat want of a 
 better class of scliool for the respectable artisans and small tradesmen. Tlie only schools 
 open to them now in the neiglibourhood of Oape Town are the mission schools, and 
 there their children mix up with the lowest class, and they do not get a sulFicieutly 
 good education. I should therefore be in favour of estabHshing foui-th class schools for 
 the benefit of th^' artisan class and others. 
 
 26 lo. Shouhi they be supported by tho State out of the general revenue ? — As I 
 understand Sir Langham Dale's system, ho proi)Oso8 that there should be small fees, 
 and there would be a grant in aid. 
 
 25 Ui. And that the teachers' salaries should virtually be paid by the State ? — 
 Partly, I suppose. I think the guarantors should not bo relieved of all responsibility, 
 or you will have mismanagement, but all these details the Education Department ought 
 to be able to provide for. 
 
 2517. Would you like to have these fourth class schools managed by the present 
 managers of mission schools, or by managers elected by the public? — I think they 
 might come under the ordinary management, but I should not much care what body 
 had the management so long as it was good and the childien got educated. 
 
 2518. Dr. licrn/.l You mean under the control of the managers ah-eady chosen 
 for the other schools in the town ? — Yes ; it all depends. In some cases you find 
 managers of public schools ready to undertake all the schools, and in other cases the 
 managers of a first class school would decline to have anything to do with other 
 schools. "Where they decline, another body of managers would have to be chosen. 
 
 2519. Dean Ilolmrx.'] How would you choose tliat other body if you could not 
 get guarantors, as would very likely be the case ? — There woidd be a ditiiculty then, 
 but if the tradesmen and better class of artisans would do nothing to assist in estab- 
 lishing schools for their children, I do not see why they should be put on an entirely 
 different footing to tlie class above them. Perhaps more liberal aid might bo given by 
 ParUament to such schools, and employers of laboiu" and the wealthier classes would, I 
 trust, assist in establishing such schools. 
 
 2520. Frr.su/i'iit.] What furthor facilities do you think should be afforded for 
 giving instruction in the English and Dutch languages ; shoidd Dutch be introduced 
 into th(^ Eh^raentary examination and count for marks? — In my opinion it should not ; 
 but I think there might very well be a Dutch paper, and rank those candidates who 
 have passed in Dutch in the order of merit. 1 would not go beyond that, as you 
 would handicap English boys who have not the same facilities for learning Dutch as 
 Dutch boys have for learning Englisli, although I think it is very desirable that all boys 
 should be able to understand and talk the language spoken by the p«ople of the 
 country. I do not think it is right to force boys to learn high Dutch and to pass an 
 examination in it. 
 
 252 1 . How would it do to have a Latin or French paper as well as Dutch, and 
 give candidates the opportunity of choosing between them? — I think the simpler you 
 make the Elementary examination the better. 
 
 2522. 3h: lioimii.'\ Would you be in favour of Dutch being introduced into the 
 Elementarj' examination ? — I would approve of having a jiaper in Dutch, and ranking 
 the successful candidates in a list, indicating tliose who have pas.sed in Dutch, but I 
 would not allow the Dutch paper to count in the aggregate of marks. 
 
 2523. Why not ?■ — I think that you would unfairly handicap English boys. 
 
 2524. There are five subjects at present in the Elementary examination ; while the 
 English boy is learning the five subjects, the other boy who takes up Dutch would 
 be learning six, then the English boy would be able to prepare his five subject so weU 
 that he might secure as many marks as the boj^ who takes additional Dutch, might he 
 not ? — I do not think so, unless you gave very few marks indeed for the Dutcli paper. 
 
 2525. In the MalrioulatidU examination, Greek is an optional subject, but marks 
 are given for those who take the Greek paper, are they not ? — The ilatriculation exam- 
 ination is quite different ; you cannot strain the powers of boys of twelve or thirteen too 
 much. 
 
 2526. The Dutch paper proposed is very easy, is it not ? — There is no guarantee 
 that it would be ea.sy. To be able to talk the language is very desirable, but I do not 
 think a little English boy taking np Dutch would have any chance ; you would handi- 
 cap him. Dutch is a very ditfieult language for an EngHsh boy to learn. 
 
 2527. Dr. lUrrtj.'] W"uld there not be an objection on educational grounds, 
 namely, that it would tend to make young lads scamp their education and cram them- 
 selves up specially in view of the coming Elementary examination, for the purpose of
 
 177 
 
 getting marks ? — My notion is that young boys want grounding well, and if you inti'o- The Hon. 
 duce a number of subjects they get a smattering of all of them without any thorough ^'^ J^ 'J^ Smxih. 
 grounding. That is the great want in the Colony as far as I have been able to judge. March 4th, 1891. 
 
 252S. With regard to the alleged optional paper in the Matriculation examina- 
 tion, may we not fairly say that yf)iing men going on to that have in view a further 
 course of classical study in wliioh Greek would be of service ? — Yes. There are school 
 optional subjects in that examination, and candidates can choose those most likely to be 
 useful to them afterwards. 
 
 2529. Bearing in mind the small number of scholars after all who go on even to 
 the Elementary examination, the two cases are scarcely parallel, are they ? — No ; you 
 ought not to compare the Elementary examination wth the Matriculation. The 
 Matriculation shows that a young man who passes is prepared to enter upon University 
 studies. Dutch is not essential to a young English boy, and therefore if it is not 
 essential, why should you compel him as it were to take it — A knowledge of English 
 is in my opinion essential for every educated person in the Colony. 
 
 2530. Rev. Moorre«^P\ In your examination before the Commission which sat in 
 1879, you said, " I was myself rather for forcing the teaching of Dutch on the English 
 schools, so as to make it more equitable, but there seems to be a great objection to 
 that"? — 1 was talking of first class public, ichools, and there was no Elementary 
 examination at that time. I was a great advocate, and still am, for teaching Dutch, 
 but my main object was and is not to give an extensive knowledge of the grammar and 
 literature, but such instruction as would afford to an English boy the opportunities of 
 more easily acquiring a colloquial knowledge of the language spoken. I advocated 
 having a Dutch master, and do still ; at the same time, I would not make Dutch 
 compulsory. 
 
 2531. Would not a very easy paper in Dutch in the Elementary examination 
 tend to promote the study of Dutch throughout the Colony? — Yes; I am in favour of 
 that, but it should be voluntary ; do not make all the boys who are desirous of obtaining 
 a good place in the examination take the paper. 
 
 2532. Bean Hohncs.] You said you were not in favour of School Boards, I believe? 
 —Yes. 
 
 2533. Can you assign any reason for having changed your opinion since you gave 
 evidence before the Commission which sat in 1879. Youthen said, "In my opinion 
 it should not only be jiermissible, but compulsory in all seats of niagistracy to establish 
 a School Boaid. With regard to the establishment of School Boards at places not 
 being scats of magistracy, that I think should be voluntary " ? — I .was thinking then 
 of the present system, the Committees of Management which are called School Boards. 
 I have always been opposed to Local Boards -^vith rating powers, because I am afraid such 
 a system would not work. I would modify the statement that the establishment of a 
 Committee of Management should be compulsory, as I do not see how it is to be carried 
 out. 
 
 2534. Dr. Hei i;/.] Are you a member of the University Council? — Yes. 
 
 2535. Has this question of the introduction of Dutch into the Elementary 
 examination been co-isidcred by the University Council ? — It came before us, and we 
 thought it desirable t<< ha^ ' the opinion of teachers throughout the Colony ; therefore 
 we resolved that the recommendations both of the Dutch Synod and the Taal Congress 
 shoidd be forwarded to the teachers for their opinion. The Secretary of the South 
 African Teachers' Association replied on the 24th January last [see Appendi.x], and the 
 matter is still imder consideration. I may say that it is no part of the necessary 
 fuuctions of the Univer ity Council to xmdertake the Elementary examination ; it is 
 done simply to promote the education of the country. 
 
 2536. To a great extent the University Council has promoted Elementary educa- 
 tion in the country, has it not ? — Yes ; and a further object is to have stages leading 
 to the Higher examinations. 
 
 Mr. A. Immelman examined. 
 2537. President.'] I beHeve you are a teacher at Malmesburj' ? — Yes. Mr.A.Immtlmaa. 
 
 2538 How long have you been so ? — Nearly fifteen years. i^Zih isqi 
 
 2539. What class of school is your's ?— A first class public undenominational "''™*' ""• "'^'• 
 school. 
 
 2540. Are there any other undenominati<inal schools at Malmesbury ? — No. 
 
 2541. Are there any second or third class schools, or a preparatory school?— There 
 is a preparatory school in connection with the first class school, under the same 
 management. 
 
 2542. How is the attendance ?— It is generally good. It has been considerably 
 better of late since the starting of a charity school in coanection with our public school.
 
 178 
 
 Mr.Jl.Imnutman. 254;i. Wliaf do you mean by a charity Bchool ? — A ragjjed school. By means of 
 
 Maroh^th 1891 *^'^*' *''^' tliifif'^l*}' of irroguUir attemliiiiee hiis been more or less removed. Parents who 
 ' ' formerly could not send their children lo school for want of clothes or on account of the 
 fees, now send them to the ragged school. 
 
 2044. In towns, would you be in favour of children found loitering about during 
 school hours being taken up and sent to school ? — That woidd make it compulsory, and 
 I do not know whether it would help on the cause of education much. 
 
 2545. Dinii Ho/iiirn.] Have you studied the question of compulsory education as 
 it is practised iu England ? — No. 
 
 254(). liif. Moiirre''i.'] Do you know anything about Sir Langham Dale's plan for 
 establishing fourth class undenominational schools Y — As far as I cau see, these fourth 
 class schools would not exactly take the place which the poorer schools do now, and I 
 fear they would more or less clash with our public schools. I have not studied the 
 question of fourth class schools very closely, so would rather not give an opinion. 
 
 2.'47. Frcskleiif.] Has your school got any property ?— The property belongs to 
 the Dutch Reformed Church. 
 
 2548. "What does it consist of ? — School buildings. 
 
 2549. Are the buildings lent or are they hired Y — They are hired. 
 
 2550. Do the members of the Board of Management all belong to the Dutch 
 Reformed Church ? — No, there is a minister of the English Church, a member. 
 
 2551. How is the Board working? — Very well. 
 
 2552. Have you had any deficiency ? — Not as yet : never within the last nine 
 years ; the school has always paid. 
 
 2553. Do you think it would be wise to alter the present system of guarantors Y — 
 I think Malmesbury has been rather singular in this respect. It is one of the few 
 places where the school "^ays, and the guarantors have no liability. 
 
 2554. What is your opinion about the s^-stem Y — I think that corporations ought 
 to take the matter in hand ; Divisional Councils or Municipalities. 
 
 2555. And make tiie rates liable for any deficiency ? — Yes. 
 
 2556. Mr. Eowan.'] Have you been at other schools ? — Yes, at Tulbagh and Hei- 
 delberg. 
 
 2557. Were there any deficiencies there ? — Yes, as a rule there were deficiencies. 
 
 2558. Who made up the deficiencies ? — The managers had to pay generally. 
 
 2559. Was the deficiency large ? — I cannot exactly say. It is a good while since 
 I left. I know the managers strongly objected to paying. 
 
 2560. Her. Motrircn.^ Is there any disadvantage to the teachers attached to the 
 present system ? — I think there is a decided disadvantage, because the teacher's pr>sition 
 is regulated by the financial state of the school more or less. If at the end of three 
 years, the finances are in a healthy state and the school is working well, it is all right, 
 but if not, the teacher gets the blame, and he suffers generally. In the majority of 
 cases .'■ehools are disrated on account of a deficiency. 
 
 2561. Br. Berry.'] How do you mean disrated? — From a first to a seccond class or 
 from a second to a third class school. We have instances of that. 
 
 2562. Does the Education Department do it ? — The Education Department only 
 sanctions the appointment of the teacher ; it knows nothing about his dismissal or 
 about disrating. The managers dismiss and disrate. 
 
 256;J. Rev. Moorrces.] So that cm that account you think it well to have the 
 present system changed ? — I think it should be changed. 
 
 2564. Mr. RoKtm.] Are not the teachers sometimes called upon to contribute 
 towards the support of the school ? — I believe that in many cases they are subscribers. 
 
 25(i5. Does that amount go off from their salary ? — No ; but very often they have 
 to suliscribe because there is a deficiency. They would sooner sacrifice a pound or two 
 than endanger their position. 
 
 2566. Do you know of any instance where teachers have had to pay ? — In my 
 own ease, at Tulbagh, I became a subscriber to the school for £10. The money was 
 raised in the way of shares, and I put down my name as a shareholder for £10, 
 altho\igh I left immediately after. 
 
 2567. When bazaars are got up for the school funds, I suppose the teachers 
 are expected to bring in their share, are they not ? — Yes ; but so far as I am concerned 
 I never had an^-thing to do witli bazaars for schools. 
 
 2568. Dr. Berry.'] What becomes of any surplus that there may be ? — It never 
 comes into the pockets of the teachers as far as I know. You generally hear of a 
 deficiency, but very seldom of a surplus, although I may say that at the present 
 moment there is a surplus in my school. The School Committee have acted very 
 generously in giving £75 for new furnitaire, which is as good as giving it to the teacher. 
 
 2569. Rev. MoorrriH.] Are you sat.sfied with the present system of electing School 
 Managers ? — No, I am not ; I think it is defective.
 
 179 
 
 2570. How oiiglit they in your opinion to bo oleete<l ? — At the present time any ^^■■^■l"»»'l'«''" 
 man who puts his name down for a paltry sum of money is eligible to become a member March lith 1891. 
 of the committee. A certain sum ought to be stipulated before a man can be eligible 
 
 for a manager of a school. 
 
 2571. Dr. Birr//.] Have you ever seen an election of managers take place? — 
 Often. 
 
 2572. Is there much interest shewn in it ? — Each party tries to supplant the other, 
 and get the selmol under their control. 
 
 257o. What is the party basis ? — I have alwaj's happened to be in a place where 
 there were two different parties. At Tulbagh there were two Church parties, and at 
 Maknosbury the same. 
 
 2574. Mr. Roiran.'] When you came to Malmesbmy, do you remember whether 
 the school was in the hands of one section ?— At the time I came I did not know there 
 were two sections ; I found it out afterwards. 
 
 2575. Did the one section have school buildings of its own ? — They had the same 
 school buildings as we have at present. 
 
 2576. Beau Holmes.'] Is there any debt on the building? — I believe there is only 
 a nominal debt, about £400. 
 
 2577. President.] Are the English and Dutch languages both taught in your 
 school ? — Yes. 
 
 2578. Do you think they are taught sufficiently? — At the present moment 
 English is taught sufficiently. Diitch is not much acknowledged in my school, nor put 
 to its credit at the inspections. As a rule, we send oiu" scholars up for the Elementary 
 examination, and there Dutch is not requ.ired. We only teach Dutch just to satisfy 
 some of the parents, nothing more. 
 
 2579. Mr. Eoiraii.] You mean that Dutch is not included in the standards, but it 
 is reported upon, is it not ? — The Education Department does not acknowledge the 
 Dutch which has been taught in my school hitherto. It was reported upon, but it was 
 not put to my credit. In examining the pupils, the Inspector had not Dutch as one 
 of the subjects for the standard of attainments, so that however well my scholars may 
 have been up in theu* Dutch it did not matter much. 
 
 2580. Prcxidi'iif.] What do j-ou thhik ought to be done in the matter? — Dutch 
 ought to be one of the subjects for the standard of attainments for the guidance of the 
 Inspectors. When a boy goes up for the Elementary examination, it is about the time 
 he gives notice to leave school generally. 
 
 2581. Mr. Romin.] You think that if a boy fails in English but passes in Dutch, 
 he ought to pass the standard ? — Yes. If a boy is examined and he fails iu Enghsh 
 but passes in Dutch, then Dutch ought to be as it were an equivalent for English, and 
 he should pass the standai'd. 
 
 2582. Suppose a boy fails in English dictation for instance, and passes in Dutch 
 dictation ? — Then he shoiiid pass in that particular standard. 
 
 2583. President.] Would you have two sets of papers ? — No ; the Inspectors 
 should examine in English and Dutch, only Dutch is not included as one of the subjects. 
 
 2584. Dr. Bern/.] Have you ever submitted a boy to be inspected in Dutch, and 
 been refused by the Inspector ? — It depends upon who the Inspector is. I have only 
 had one instance where an Inspector refused to take the meaning of an English word 
 in Dutch, because he did not at the time understand Dutch. 
 
 2585. Take Standard I, " narrative in monosyllables," have you ever submitted a 
 boy for inspection in that in Dutch who was refused by the Inspector ? — The Inspector 
 I refer to coidd not examine in Dutch at all, but as long as I have been teaching I 
 have only known one Inspector who could not read and WTite Dutch. 
 
 2586. You said that Dutch would not be put to the credit of your school ? — No ; 
 the Inspectors classify pupils according to their attainments in the English subjects, 
 but not in Dutch. 
 
 2587. But who is to blame for that, the Education Depai-tment, the teacher, or 
 the pupil. Suppose you submitted six boys for inspection in Dutch, who coidd not read a 
 word of English, and the Inspector refused to take them, would 3-ou blame the Educa- 
 tion Department ? — I remember on one occasion I submitted a class for Dutch, and the 
 Inspector took the scholars for Dutch alone. I cannot say how he dassiiiid them. 
 
 2588. Do you see anything in the table of standards of attainments which shows 
 that the Education Department would not allow a boy to come up for his pass in 
 reading in Dutch only ? — No ; however Dutch is not m(>ntioned in the standards. 
 
 2589. Mr. Rowan.] Have you ever sent up any pupils for the Elementary examina- 
 tion ? — Yes ; generally every year we send some up. 
 
 2590. Do you think that a simple paper in Dutch shoidd form part of that 
 examination ? — We generally find that chilcken, as soon as they know that they have 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] AA
 
 180 
 
 Mr.A.Imtnelman. to go up for the Elementary oxaniLuation, come witli a request from thoir parents asking 
 Maich~»th iS'ii *'"'* *'"'y '""■^>' '^^"P ^>"*^''' beeauso it is not required for the Ehnnentary examination. 
 1, . . ^jj^^j. ^^^^. j^.^^.^, passed lliat, the jiarents naturally wish them to go up for the Honours 
 examination, wluae Duteh is one of the subjects ; and we find that on account of their 
 having dropjied Dutch the}' are at a great disadvantage, so that they have sometimes 
 to take another suhjei't instead of IJutcli for the Honours examination, in order to prepare 
 them in a year's time. 
 
 2i)9l.'Pirsi(iiiif.'\ "Wliat are the other subjects ? — There is Roman history for one. 
 
 25'J'2. Ifean Jlo/me.s.'] Could not j'nu prepare candidates for Dutch in a year's time 
 just as well as for Roman history 'f — No ; especially as Dutch is not taken into the 
 school curricidum. The language is not acknowledged, so to speak. 
 
 2o9-i. Rcf. Moon-ecH.'] The examination in Duteh for honours, is it very elemen- 
 tary or is it difficult ? — It is very difficult, I think. 
 
 2ol)4. And because it is so difficult you cannot prepare a candidate in a year's 
 time ? — There would be no difficulty had they not dropped the study of Dutch when 
 they went up for the Elementary examination. 
 
 2595. Ih'dii J[o/ii/r.\.] You find it easier to prepare a candidate in history in a 
 year's time tlian in Diit eh ? — If lie had been continuing the study of Dutch, there 
 would be no difficulty whatever. 
 
 25U(). Rri\ Moorri'f.s.^ Fromyom- experience as a teacher, do you find that the fact 
 of not having Dutch in the Elementary examination discourages the study of the 
 language ? — Yes, altogether. 
 
 2597. Dr. Bcrri//] What do you suggest in order to get over that difficulty of the 
 absence of Dutch in the Elementary examination ? — I woidd propose to have Dutch as 
 on© of the subjects laid down for the standard of attainments, and it should bo 
 introduced into the Elementary examination and made optional, with French or 
 German as alternative subjects, the same as in the Higher examinations. 
 
 2598. Would j-ou have an optional paper in Dutch, French, or German, and the 
 marks to count on the general list, or would yon have a separate list ? — I do not see 
 why it should not count on the general list. 
 
 2599. Do not you think that would give undue advantage to the boy whose 
 mother tongue was Dutch, French, or German ? — I do not think so. 
 
 2(i00. Would it not serv(^ the purpose better if you had an optional paper, and 
 the successful candidates ranked on a separate list ? — That woidd really be two different 
 examinations — one would be an Elementary examination, and the other would bo 
 higher than the Elementary. 
 
 2G01. If you make Dutch, French, or German optional subjects, does it not 
 remove the examination from the sphere of an Elementary examination altogether Y^ 
 The paper can be very simple. 
 
 2602. Would not the tendency be to make every boy or girl going up for the 
 Elementary examination trj' and get marks for a particular language? — If they get 
 •narks for a particular language, it will improve their knowledge <jf the language. 
 
 2603. Would it not tend to make them scamp their other work ? — Thej' do it with a 
 good many other subjects, t' cmietimes they take up a particular subject just for the sake 
 of getting marks ; geography, for instance, which is not palatable for a childto learn. 
 
 2604. Is not the object of the elementary teaching to give children a good 
 grounding in education ? — Yes. 
 
 2605. If you disperse their mental faculties over a great many subjects, is not the 
 effect prejudicial to scholars ? — I do not think so, especially if that additional subject 
 is the study of their mother tongue oidy. 
 
 2606. Bearing in mind the fact that only about 41 per cent, of the children wlio 
 are enrolled in our public schools reach Standard IV, do you think it advisable to 
 disperse the education of those childi-en over a wide nmuber of subjects dming that 
 short time that they are at school, for that is what you would do if you introduce 
 Dutch as a paper in the Elementary examination ? — I really do not see that the Ele- 
 mentary examination does much good, unless the Dutch language is taken in as one of 
 the subjects. 
 
 2607. Jkan Ilohncs.'] You would be quite content if your bo3's did not go in for 
 it ? — I would be very glad if they did not. They seem to think that when thev have 
 passed the Elementary examination, there is no more necessity to remain at .school. 
 
 2608. Seeing that only about 4| per cent, of the childi-en in the public schools 
 reach Standard IV, do you think it is worth while to encourage further linguistic 
 studies dining the two or three years they are at school ? — I do not consider it 
 increasing the subjects to learn Dutch. 
 
 2609. Do all the pupils take Dutch and English in your school ? — All the children 
 in my school take EngHsh as well as Dutch, and I do not think it would complicate 
 matters any more if Dutch was added to the subjects for the Elementary examination.
 
 181 
 
 2610. Do you think that children take Dutch and English with the same avidity ■' -yfr-A-Imnulman. 
 
 —'^''^^f^'^^^^^'^^'^^oymoe, yes. March lib, 189 1. 
 
 2611. Would you be surprised to hear that some of the witnesses say the opposite 'f 
 — Very likely, those who do not teach both languages. 
 
 2612. Head masters of schools have said so? — A great deal depends on the 
 influence which the head master brings to bear on the pupils. If Dutch is taught by 
 a special master, he cannot bring the same iufluence to bear which the head master 
 can. In some cases where the head master is not competent to teach Dutch, a special 
 master has to be appointed. The children, as a rule, like to please the head master as 
 much as possible, and they will try to do everything that he wishes them to do, but as 
 soon as the assistant is appointed to teach, they like to shirk the Dutch language. 
 
 2613. Pnaident.'] You are of opinion that there ought to be a Dutch, French, and 
 Geiman paper in the Elementary examination, and then for boys to choose between 
 them ? — Yes. 
 
 2614. Rev. Moorrees.'] I understand you to say that you would make Dutch, 
 French, and German optional in the Elementary examination ; would you give the 
 same number of marks for French and German that you would give for English and 
 Dutch ? — Yes ; I woidd give the same, because there might be a child of French 
 parentage going up, and he should have the same number of marks for his mother 
 tongue as a child of Dutch or English parentage. 
 
 2615. But French is not the acknowledged language of the country, is it ? — Still, 
 I think justice should to be done to all ; especially as French and German are optional 
 subjects with Dutch. 
 
 AA 2
 
 INDEX AND ANALYSIS 
 
 or 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
 
 INDEX AND ANALYSIS 
 
 OF 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 [NOTE :— The figures in the Index refer to the Pages of Evidence. I he analysis 
 merely gives the chief results of the examination of each witness, and the gist o 
 his evidence, in as condensed a form as possible, for purposes of reference.] 
 
 B 
 
 Birch, W. T., Vice- Principal of South African College School ; and has been 
 teacher at Burgliersdorp and Beaufort West, 165 ; Objects to guarantee s^^stem ; has 
 had experience of school deficiencies, 16-J ; A rate might be imposed by Divisional 
 Councils, 16o ; Present system a hardship to teachers, 16o ; Dutch should be taught 
 in all schools, but not be made compulsory, 165, 166 ; If made compulsory in the 
 Elementary examination it woidd spoil it, 165 ; Elementary examination should be 
 altered altogether and assimilated to the Oxford Junior local examinations, 165 ; 
 Latin might be given as an alternative subject, 166 ; Present " six mile " clause as it 
 affects the boarding department of schools a hardship, 167. 
 
 Bishop of Cape Town, Most Kev., 150 ; Irregularity of attendance due principally 
 to indifference of parents; Compulsory education should be introduced, 151; In 
 Cape Town the bulk of the education is carried on by the different church bodies, 151 
 Would regret the banishment of all the white children fi-om mission schools, 151 ; 
 Funds would be forthcoming for the development of the mission school system, 151 ; 
 The difficulty is to distinguish who are "coloured" children, l-'2; Better class 
 schools needed for poorer white children, 152 ; Large number of children not reached 
 by the present system of public or private education, 158 ; Mission Schools should 
 receive more liberal grants, 153 ; GrOYornment should establish llagged Schools, 158 ; 
 Reading the Scriptures should be provided for in such schools, 154 ; Statistics relating 
 to Enghsh Church Mission Schools, 154 ; School Boards should have continuity of 
 existence, 154; Guarantee system unfair; Ratepayers should elect members of School 
 Boards, 154 ; Itinerating teachers might be employed for the education of children of 
 railway employes and others, 155 ; Existing system of farm schools should be deve- 
 loped, 155 ; lu the Elementary and other examinations there should be an alternative 
 paper, fairly ecjual in difficulty, in English and Dutch languages, 155 ; Examiners 
 could be found in both languages, 155 ; Boys going from the Colony to English pubHc 
 schools or colleges at a great disadvantage, 155 ; Night scliools should be encouraged, 
 156 ; Sir Langham Dale's recommendation about aiding voluntary schools would be 
 an excellent thing if not abused, 156 ; It ought not to be possible for the majority of 
 managing committee to refuse religious teaching other than that given in a so-called 
 undenominational schools, 156 ; The salaries of mission school teachers should be raised, 
 157. 
 
 Brooke, Rev. Canon, Principal Diocesan College, 64 ; Boards of Management, 
 constitution of ; Advises change in direction of making them more permanent, 64 ; 
 Dismissal of teachers, 65; Government inspection, 65 ; Present guarantee system 
 undesirable, iJi> ; Difficulty in keeping up supply of teachers, 65 ; College work shoidd 
 begin just beyond the School Higher examination, 66 ; Irregidarity of attendance 
 should be met by compulsion, 66 ; Fo\u-th class schools would interfere with mission 
 schools, but they woidd be useful in large centres, 6() ; Better to teach Dutch than a 
 foreign language such as French, 66 ; The " taal " should be discountenanced, 67 ; 
 Farmers anxious for their children to have good English education, 67 ; Dutch should 
 not be compulsory' in Elementary examination, 67 ; Difficulty about examiners in the 
 two languages, 67 ; A Dutch boy, if he has been at college, probably thinks iu 
 English, 68. 
 
 Burns, Abdol, a Mahoramedan, 95 ; Malays anxious for their children to go to 
 school, 95 ; In favour of compulsory education, 95 ; Arabic schools, 95, 96 ; If white 
 children mix with the coloured, it teaches the latter how to he clean. 9() ; English and 
 Dutch should both be taught, 96 ; Objects to the " taal," 96 ; Best to have white 
 te.achers over colouied boys, 96; Could not say whether Malays woidd object to a 
 school tax, 96.
 
 186 INDEX AND AX.VLYSTS. — F.T>rCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 Dale, Sir Langham, Superiiitonrlpnt-Ueueral of Kdiicatiou, •'? ; The '' Ilersehel " 
 system, 3 ; Umlenomiiuitional imblu' schools, quarterly statement of, 4 ; As the white 
 cliililren increase tlu-y jiress out the lower type of coloured cliildreu from mission 
 schools ; One-third of the white children ;iro in mission schools, 5 ; It is in town 
 schools that truancy mostly exists, 5, 27 ; Since Education Commission sat in 187f> 
 certain changes have taken place ; Increase of grants for teachers' salaries ; Greater 
 encouragement for acquiring Dutch ; Pension system ; Private farm and circuit 
 schools, 5 ; Sub-di%-ision of duties of Superintendent-General of Education found 
 imjtracticable, (>, 24 ; A more adequate stalf of Inspectors required ; also some system 
 of capitation allowances for attracting day siholars among the poorer class of farmers 
 into third class schools on farms, (i. 26 ; Governesses after five years service should 
 share in same privileges as other teacliers of good service, and ultimately pensions, (> ; 
 Fourth class undenominational schools recommended, 7, 12, 19, 21 ; lias asked to be 
 allowed to retire, 7 ; School Boards and rating powers, opinion ou, 7 ; A body of 
 Trustees might be appointed so as to provide for the tenure of public school property, 
 8; If the voice of the country were taken, the people would probably say, leave the 
 present system of guarantors as it is, 9 ; All school buildings should belong to the 
 local authorities, 10 ; No one employed on a private farm school ought to expect 
 Government aid unless liis qualifications have been approved, 11 ; Not sure that we are 
 read}' for an Act for iucoi-porating schools, 12; Public school property should be 
 secm-ed by being in the liands of local trustees, 12 ; Religious teachiug in fourth class 
 schools, 14, 15, 17 ; Election of (Jommittee of Management for fourth class schools, 14 ; 
 Is breaking down sectarian schools, 16 ; Managers should not have power to exclude 
 pupils, 16, 24 ; Mixture of black and white children, 16; A mission school ouglit to 
 be in direct connection with a Missionary Society or church, 1 8 ; Teachers for and 
 work in fom-th class schools, 18, 19 ; Doubtful whether you would get the men for an 
 Education Board in a place like ( 'a[ie Town to deal with the whole school question, 
 unless they wore paid, 19 ; Extend your present agencies and give more liberal aid, 
 and the whole work of education in Cape Town will be provided for, 20 ; The educa- 
 tion of Cape Town would not be promotsd by a Public Boai'd. 20, 28 ; Able to accom- 
 modate 7,000 children in Cape Town ; Number on the roll 6,000, 21 ; Cape Town 
 would require five foxu-th class schools, 22 ; Board of Education inexpedient, 24 ; 
 There might be a Minister of Education, 25 ; At present there are 200 schools in a 
 3'ear not inspected, 25 ; Assistant Inspectors undesirable, 26 ; Inspection of farm 
 schools, 26 ; Draft of Bill to enforce regular attendance, 28 ; Facilities for education 
 of children of railway employes, 29 ; List of railway schools, '40 ; Circuit schools not 
 dcsiiable for the purpose, 30 ; Kagged schools, 32 ; Every facility afi'orded for 
 learning English and Dutch, 32, 33 ; liesolutions on the subject of " taal " Congress 
 and Hoofdbestuiu-, 33, 34, 35 ; Number of pupil teacheis should be increased, 36 ; 
 Abolish training colleges and have teachers trained in day schools, so as to avoid 
 expense, 36 ; Dutch should not be made comjiulsory, 37 ; Heligious instruction, 38 ; 
 Industrial training, 39 ; Inspectors examine both in English and Dutch, 40, 42 ; 
 Encouraging botli languages would advance the study of the English language, 41 ; 
 Always wise tn teach the best Dutch, 43 ; No additional facilities wanted to meet the 
 wants of the children of the agricultural population, 44 ; Difficult to get school build- 
 ings for farm schools and district boarding schools, 45 ; Parliament should secure the 
 Education Department against any sudden retrenchment of expenditure, 45 ; Exten- 
 sion of aid to voluntary bodies, 45 ; Night schools not advocated, 4() ; Supply of 
 books, 46. 
 
 Douallier, 0. D. ; Has a laige private schoDl in Cape Town, 106; With regard 
 to mission schools, there will always be great difficulty in regard to attendance until 
 S')mething like compulsory education is introduced, 1 06 ; His own attendance very 
 good, 106 ; It would be a good plan if the Municipality were to levy a school rate, 
 106 ; Dutch taught in his school every day, 106, 109 ; Not every boy takes it, 106 ; 
 The matter of religious teaching in schools requires very careful handling, 107 ; 
 Advocates extension of aid to voluntary schools, 107,108; If he had his o\vn way, 
 would get rid of Elementary examination altogether, 109 ; It is as easy to learn 
 English as proper Dutch, 109. 
 
 £ 
 
 Elliott, C. B., General Manager of Railways, 46 ; Facilities for meeting wants of 
 children of railway employes, 46 ; A suitable officer might go from place to place 
 along the railway and explain to parents the advantages already provided, 46 ; The 
 difficulties in the way of sending children to school at present are so great that it 
 would be cruel to insist upon every parent sending his children to school, 47 ; If
 
 INDEX AND ANALYSIS. — KDUCATIOX COSTSnsSION. 187 
 
 compulsory education wore enforced there should be Government Inspectors, 47 ; 
 Managemeiil of fourth class schools should be left to church bodies, if they will under- 
 take it, 48 ;_ Eeligious instruction, 4.S ; Distinction of colour, 4. '< ; More heart and 
 enthusiasm if religious bodies take matter of education in hand, 49 ; It is the person- 
 ality of the teacher himself which attracts scholars, or otherwise. 40 ; Drafted a Bill 
 in 1876 recommending division of Colony into districts, the collection of school rates 
 being entrusted to Divisional Councils, 50 ; Present system of guarantors unfair, 51 ; 
 In favour of School Boards, and an Act should be passed giving them perpetual 
 succession. 51 ; Ratepayers should elect the Boards, 51 ; The quostion of language 
 should be left to local circumstances, 52 ; Infant children of Dutch parentage would 
 learn everything sooner if first tuition were given in the mother tongue, 5^ ; The 
 knowledge of one language facilitates the acquiring of another, 53 ; If Dutch were 
 given as a compulsory subject for examination it would be the means of encouraging 
 the study of the language, 53 ; A great deal of ungrammatical Dutch spoken and 
 taught in different parts of the Colony, 54 ; Compulsory examination in Dutch for the 
 Civil Service has not reduced the number of candidates, 54 ; Improving the status of 
 teachers would increase the demand, 55 ; Children of railway employes can travel 
 free by train to nearest available school, 55 ; The question of boarding schools for 
 these children has been considered, 55 ; Desirable to have a technical school in con- 
 nection with railway workshops, 56 ; Present teaching staff could do more if there was 
 more centralization, 57. 
 
 Howell, A. W., Chief Traffic Manager, Cape Grovemment Railways, 74 ; Facili- 
 ties for meeting the wants of emploj^es' children, 74 ; Has considered a scheme for 
 boarding schools for the benefit of these children. 75 ; Some children might attend 
 private farm schools, 75 ; A capitation grant might be given. 76. 
 
 Hofmeyr, Rev., Senior Professor at Stellenbosch Theological College, 167 ; 
 Present system of Boards of Management on the whole satisfactory, 167 ; Education 
 might suffer if Municipalities and Divisional Councils stepped in, 167 ; Fourth class 
 undenominational schools would supply a need which is growing, 167 ; Management 
 should not be allowed to remain in the hands of the present managers, 167; Sufficient 
 provision for instruction in English and Dutch so far as his knowledge goes, 167 ; 
 Dutch might be imported into Elementary examination, but those taking Dutch 
 paper should not have any advantage over those not taking it, 167 ; Nothing should 
 be done to cause irritation, 16.S; Dutch children acquire English verj- easily if they 
 begin early, 169. 
 
 Immelman, A. ; A teacher at Malmesbury, 177 ; Doubtful whether compulsory 
 education would be advantageous, 178 ; No deficiency within last nine years ; Rates 
 ought to be made liable for deficiencies instead of individual guarantors as at present, 
 178 ; Present system disadvantageous to teachers, 178 ; Not satisfied mth present 
 system of electing School Managers, 178 ; Party spirit too often predominates, ] 79 ; 
 Dutch ought to be one of the subjects for the standard of attainments for the guidance 
 of Inspectors, 179; Not having Dutch as a subject in the Elementary examination 
 discom-ages the study of the language, 180 ; Does not see that the Elementary exami- 
 nation does much good, 180 ; There should be a Dutch, French and German paper, 
 and then for candidates to choose between them, 181. 
 
 Lightfoot, Rev. Canon, Archdeacon of the Cape, 58 ; Attendance at Church 
 Mission Schools not regular, 58 ; In large towns there should be some system of com- 
 pulsion, with schools for the Mahommedans, 58, 59 ; In Cape Town you cannot well 
 separate coloured from white class, 59 ; Distinction as to colour very difficult, 69. 60 ; 
 "Would deprecate proposed fourth class school system being applied to aU mission 
 schools, 60, 63 ; A great deal of changing of pupils from one school to another, 60 ; 
 Difficult to obtain efficient teachers. 61 ; Necessary to open an additional class of 
 school for Malays, 61 ; Never had a request for apjilicatiou of conscience clause, 62 ; 
 No disinclination on part of clergy to work in cpnnection with undenominational 
 schools, but they prefer to have their ovra schools, 63 : Voluntary schools should 
 receive Government aid, 63 ; Young Malays are not apprenticed as was formerly the 
 case, and many of them spend their time in "loitering about the streets and gambling, 64. 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] BB
 
 188 INDEX AND ANALYSIS. — EDrCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 Leger, St., F. Y.. forniprl3- I'rinciiial of St. Andrew's College, 123 ; lu favour of 
 compulsory eJuoaliuu ; Truancy officers should be employed, 123 ; If mission schools 
 are working well, would licsitato to interfere with thoni, th(nigh unfavourable to 
 mixture of colour, 124 ; if Boai-ds of Management h;id a defined corjiorate position 
 and perpetuity of existence, it would be better, 124 ; The best system would be that 
 wliich brought the administration into closest contact with the ordinary system of local 
 government, 121; A sciiool rate might be introduced, 124; Ample facilities for 
 instruction in English and Dutch ; The tendency of introducing a Dutch paper in the 
 Elementary examination would be to retard education, 124 ; Newspaper boys and 
 others might attend school on the half time system, 125. 
 
 M 
 
 Murray, Rev. A.. Minister of the D. R. Church, Wellington, 157 ; At Wellington 
 attendance fairly regular, 158; Compulsion might be advisable in towns, but not in 
 country districts, loS ; Favourable to undenominational fourth class schools; Religious 
 instruction, 15!l ; Managers not chosen because they are members of D. II. Church, 
 159 ; Fourth class schools might have a separate body of managers of their own, 159 ; 
 Has heard of guarantors having to pay large sums out of their own pockets, 159 ; 
 School property miglit be vested in Civil ( 'omniissioner, or three trustees chosen by the 
 committee as a permanent body, 160 ; Thinks the pressure connected witli guarantee 
 system is jiassing away. 100 ; Facilities for learning English and Dutch fairly sufficient, 
 101 ; Dutcli might hi' introduced into the Elcmeuturv examinations as an additional 
 optional subject, Kil ; Boys ptissing in Dutch might be ranked in a separate list 
 altogether, lii2 ; Many schools where instruction might be given entirely in Dutch, 
 162 ; People will use a language as they find they need it, 163 ; G-orernment might 
 give a capitation grant to have poor children among agricultural population educated 
 at farm schools, 164; Teachers might have additional remuneration for holding 
 evening schools, 164; No reason why voluntary schools should not come under unde- 
 nominational system, 164. 
 
 Mansvelt, Professor ; Teaches modern languages and history at Stellenbosoh, 139 ; 
 Compulsory education not suited to this country, 139 ; Present facilities for learning 
 English and Dutch inadequate, 139; At Stelleubosch, woidd educate children in 
 Dutch, and then import English afterwards, as a foreign language, 140 ; Would liave 
 proper Dutch taught, 140; Want of provision for Dutch in the Elementary examina- 
 tion a drawback to study of Dutch, 140 ; An additional paper in Dutch should be set ; 
 English and Dutch should be put on a par, 141 ; Elementary examination cannot be 
 dispensed with, 141 ; Superficial education, 141 ; Advocates introduction of Dutch 
 into Elementary examination on gi'ound of equity to children whose motlier tongue is 
 Dutch, 142 ; Kafir language not analagous, 142 ; A knowledge of Dutch facilitates 
 the acquisition of English, 144; Increased interest in Dutch manifested, 144. 
 
 Muller, Rev. C, Minister of D. II. Church, Bree-street, 76 ; Attendance at 
 mission schools very irregular, 76, 78 ; In favour of compulsory education if sufficient 
 schools are pro\'ided, 76 ; Mahommedan scholars do not stay long at school, 76 ; 
 (iuarterly payment of fees desirable, 78 ; The great thing is to separate the two races, 
 79 ; Does not believe in the undenominational character of fourth class schools. 79 • 
 Boards of Management should be elected by the ratepayers, 79 ; Municipalities or 
 Divisional Councils should pay deficiencies, 80 ; As long as the Education Department 
 has control of the School Boards, Government nominees not necessary, 81 ; Study of 
 Dutch should be promoted. 83 ; For a cliild at the commencement, the mother tono-ue 
 should be the medium of instruction, 83 ; Children of Dutch-speaking parents are at a 
 disadvantage in the Elementary examination because there is no Dutch paper, 83 ; 
 Dutch has been neglecteil, 84 ; If Dutch was optional in Elementary examination the 
 number of candidates would not decrease, 84 ; Dutch required in various departments 
 of hfe, 86 ; Colonial youth take more to English, 86 ; The " taal," 86 ; Dutch ought 
 to be more thoroughly taught, 87. 
 
 Oordt, van, Dr., Editor of Zuul-Afrikaan newspaper, and Member of University 
 Council, 112; Has been actively engaged in education, 112 ; Not altogether in favour 
 of Compulsory Education, 112, 116 ; Not fair that Boards of Management should have 
 to make up deficiencies, Divisional Councils and Municipalities should do so, 112 • 
 Dutch should be added in the Elementarj' examinations as an optional subject in the 
 same way as Greek in the Matriculation examination, 112; Kafu' not a language of 
 literature, 113, 115; In Elementary examination would have high Dutch, but would 
 not be too strict, 113 ; Examiners could be found, 113 ; Fees at South African College
 
 INDEX AND ANALYSIS. — EUUCATION COMMISSION. 189 
 
 are very higli, 116 ; In favour of fourth-class schools in Cape Town, 116 ; Mission 
 schools should be reserved for the coloured classes. 
 
 Peters, Rev. T. 11., "Warden at Zonnebloem Institution, IW ; Moral suasion best 
 means to overcome irregular attendance ; it might be necessary to have compulsion, 120 ; 
 Truancy officer should be appointed, 120 ; Rates should be looked to for meeting 
 deficiencies, 120 ; Fourth-class schools not desirable, 121 ; Mixing of races, 121 ; 
 Mission schools should receive larger grants, 122 ; Better for farmers^ to send their boys 
 to boarding schools, 122 ; Boards of Management, 120, 122 ; Ample facilities are given 
 for acquiring a knowledge of Dutch in almost all the schools, 122; Dutch should not 
 be introduced into the Elementary examination, 123. 
 
 Powell, E., Editor Cape Arr/u.i, 116 ; Ignorance of boys selling newspapers, 117, 
 118; Apprentices also deficient in education, 117 ; Half-time schooling might be 
 arranged, 117 ; Approves of compulsory education in municipalities, 118 ; Clerks and 
 others wanting in knowledge of colonial geography, 118; Shorthand should be acquired 
 by colonial youths. 118; An advantage to know Dutch as well as English, 11 r» ; 
 Instruction in Dutch not xeiy efficient, 119. 
 
 O'Reilly, Rev. J., Priest in charge at Wynberg, 135 ; Particulars as to Roman 
 Catholic schools, 135, 136 ; Schools should be cstabUshed for waifs and strays, 137 ; 
 Bishop would undertake the management of one such school in Cape Town, pro\-ided 
 Government guaranteed fimds for its support, 137 ; The children in their schools who 
 do not belong to their body number about 744, 137 ; Compulsory education not ex- 
 pedient, 137 ; An attendance allowance in addition to the Government grant might be 
 given, 138 ; The congregation would object altogether to Dutch teaching, 13S. 
 
 Russell, Rev. J. M., Minister of Scotch Presbyterian Church, Cape Town, 68 ; 
 Great irregularity of attendance foimd, but improved by system of monthly instead of 
 weekly payments, 68 ; Compulsory education might be adopted in large centres, 68 ; 
 Malays come to school up to a certain ago, 68 ; Tlie churches feel the mission schools 
 to be a heavy biu-den on their hands, and he agrees to proposal for fourth-class schools, 69, 
 
 72 ; A good many childi-en might then come back from Roman Catholic schools, 70, 
 72 ; Children go from school to school to evade pa3-ment of fees, 70 ; Roman Catholics 
 get good teachers at low salaries, 71 ; The South African College school does not 
 supply the educational want of the i^oorer European boys, 72 ; Mission schools would 
 be glad to get increased grants, 73 ; Ratepayers should be called upon to jjay deficien- 
 cies, 73 ; To allow rival schools in country villages would destroy the public schools, 
 
 73 ; A great desire on the part of English parents to make their boys learn Dutch, 74. 
 
 Smith, Hon. Justice ; A Judge of Supreme Court, 174 ; Ragged schools should 
 be established, 175 ; Children should be compelled to attend school between 5 or 6 and 
 13, but if they passed a certain standard shoidd be exempt, 175 ; If school property 
 were vested in the Superintendent-General of Education and the Civil Commissioner 
 of the district, it would meet all requirements ; no good to be gained by incorporating 
 Boards of Management, 175; Present guarantee system works fairly well, 175; 
 Government should pay half the rent of buildings, 175 ; A great want of a better 
 class of school for respectable artizans and small tradesmen, 176 : Dutch should not be 
 introduced into the Elementary examination and count for marks ; there might be a 
 Dutch paper, and candidates who pass ranked in order of merit, 176 ; Thorough 
 grounding a great want, 177 ; Opposed to local Boards with rating powers, 177; The 
 University Coimeil and the Dutch language, 177. 
 
 Stigant, P. J. ; Member of Divisional Council and Municipality, 110 ; Present 
 system of guarantors unfair. 110 ; There should be compidsory education, 110 ; Funds 
 should come out of general revenue, not out of local rates, 110 ; Government should 
 have power of appointing a Board, 110 ; Property should be vested in trustees, 111 ; 
 Abdol Biims not a representative of the Mahommedans, 111 ; A staunch Presbyterian 
 sent his children to be educated at the Convent school because it was the cheapest and 
 the class of education superior. 111. 
 
 Soeker, Mai-ah, a Mahommedau, 120 ; Malays ai-e interested in the education of 
 their children, and satisfied with mission schools, 125 ; Arabic schools, 125 ; Opposed 
 to paying more rates, 125. 
 
 BB 2
 
 190 INDEX AND ANALYSIS. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 Talieb, Imaum, a Malay priest, 125 ; Arabic schools, 125 ; All Malay children 
 ehoukl go to school, 12(); Malays anxious for education, 126. 
 
 Tiiulall, licv. II., Wcsloyau Minister at Stollonbosch, 120; On the whole, present 
 system a good one, 120; I'oorer class of children attend irregularly, 120; t'onipulsory 
 education nioir suitable to large towns, 127 ; There shmdd ni>t be anything to exclude 
 white children from a coloured school, if parents are respectable, and rice irrxa. 127 ; 
 Fees in public schools too high, 127 ; Moral suasion has a good effect, 127 ; On the 
 whole, establishment of fourth class undenominational schools would be beneficial, 12cS ; 
 Voluntary schools, 12S ; An Education Board for the district, elected by the rate- 
 payers, should take the place of present Boards of Management, 129 ; A school 
 rate would be uiipopular, 12'J ; Farm and circuit schools should come under supervision 
 of Boixrd, 12!) ; It should also have some say in the establishment of mission schools, 
 L'Ui; Instruction in English and Dutch desirable, TJO ; Provision need not be made 
 iu the Elementary examination for Dutch, 131. 
 
 Thompson, Bev. J., Minister of Wesleyan Church, Cape Town, 90; Had experi- 
 ence in educational matters in Colony and elsewhere, 90 ; Would recommend compul- 
 sory education in towns, but it should be a last resource, 97 ; It would be expensive, 
 
 97 ; The question of fees does not stand in the way of atteudauoo, 97 ; If children 
 were taken from ihe streets and put to school, more accommodation must be found, 
 
 98 ; "Would support establishment of fourth class schools in Cape Town and certain 
 other areas, 98 ; (Compulsion should he through a district or di\'isional agency rather 
 than by one oflicer, 97, 99 ; AVesloyan mission schools, 99 ; Would prefer mission 
 schools continued, with greater State aid, 100 ; No fault to find witii present system 
 of Boards of Management, 100 ; Local bodies might contribute one-fourth, the fees 
 one-fourth, and the Government one-half, 101 ; Government nominees, 100, 101. 
 
 Toit, du, Bev. S. J., formerly Superintendent-General of Education in Transvaal, 
 131 ; Transvaal Government j^ays a quid pro quo according to school work done, 131 ; it 
 is the business of the parents to found schools. Government only assists subsequently, 
 
 131 ; This found to he the cheapest system, 131 ; Education in Transvaal voluntary, 
 
 132 ; Erection of bmldiugs, 132 ; Good attendance might be seciu'ed by a system of 
 rewards, 132 ; Dutch and English languages, 132 ; Dutch boys more or less handi- 
 capped in competing with English boys, 133 ; Desirable to know both languages, 133 ; 
 In the Elementary examination Dutch should be put on an equal footing with 
 English, 133, 134 ; Bi-lingual countries, 133 ; Kafir not recognised like Dutch, 134 ; 
 The system of subsidy, as prevails in Transvaal, the only practical solution to meet the 
 wants of a .scattered farm population, 134 ; Circuit and farm schools, 134; Boards of 
 Management, 135 ; There would be a feeling against direct taxation for school pur- 
 poses, 135; Fees are not too high, 135. 
 
 Tuuk, van der, Professor ; Teaches modern languages at South African College, 
 101 ; Very many English children taking up Dutch, 101, 104 ; Dutch should be more 
 taught in schools, 102, 10:5; Would give an easy paper in Dutch iu the Elementary 
 examination, 102, 103, 104 ; Competent examiners in the two languages could be 
 seciued. Dutch should not be eom))ulsory in Matriculation examination, 102,103; 
 Dutch is not efhciently tauglit, 103 ; The study of the Dutch lauguage and the history 
 of South Africa should be through the medium of Dutch language, 104 ; Dutch more 
 appreciated now than formerly, 104. 
 
 Villiers, de. Sir J. H., Chief Justice of the Colony, 169 ; President of Education 
 Commission in 1879, advocates compulsory attendance, and parents ought to be held 
 responsible, 170; AVould begin with more poi)ulous places, 170 ; Education should be 
 free for poorest class, Goverimient finding the funds, 170, 171 ; Objects to system of 
 guarantors, as they are a fluctuating body, 170; School Boards should be established, 
 elected by educated ratejiayer.s, and properly incorporated by Act of Parliament, 170 ; 
 Bates should be liable for auy dclicieucy, Government contributing half, 170, 171 ; 
 Electors ought at least to be able to write thcii- names, 170 ; Mission schools, 172 ; 
 Nominee system would give better men than elective system, but if rates are liable, 
 ratepayers must have a voice, 172 ; Additional facilities for teaching Dutch should be 
 provided, 172, 173 ; There might be an additional paper in the Dutch language in the 
 Elementary examination, 173 ; Better for Cape children to learn Dutch than Latin or 
 Freuc'li. 173 ; Elementary science should be a subject for examination, 173 ; District 
 boarding sctiools should be encom'aged, 174. 
 
 Vns, do. Professor P. J. G., Theological Professor at Stellenbosch, 144 ; In some 
 cases education is not cheap enough, 145 ; Government should contribute more towards
 
 INDEX AND ANALYSIS.-— EDtJCATION COMMISSION. 191 
 
 salaries of teacliers in undenominntioTial soliools, 110; AVould have one good cheap 
 school at the expense of the State, and no private schools, 146 ; On the whole, the D. R. 
 Church is in favour of undenominational schools, because it is doing justice to every- 
 body, 146 ; Present guarantee system should not be abandoned, 147 ; Vesting property, 
 148 ; There ought to be provision for Dutch in Elementary examination, 149, 150 ; 
 Would not force a bny to learn Dutch if he did not care to, 149 ; French or German 
 might be put as optional subjects, 149 ; Aid to voluntary schools, 150. 
 
 W 
 
 Waal, de, D. C, Member of House of Assembly and Town Council, 104 ; Does not 
 see why present system of guarantors should not continue, 104 ; A school rate would be 
 very objectionable, 105 ; Not in favour of compulsory education, 105 ; Schools enough 
 in Cape Town, 105 ; Better provision should be made for teaching Dutch, 105 ; Would 
 not force English children to learn Dutch, but very desirable to know both languages, 
 106. 
 
 Wliitton, J. R., Rector of Normal College in Cape Town, 87 ; There should be 
 compulsory education in some form or other, 87 ; Boards of Management sliould have 
 perpetual succession, 88 ; Dutch should not be made compulsory in Elemeutarv 
 examination, 88 ; Better inducements for teachers in Free State and Transvaal, 88, 
 89 ; Training of teachers, 89 ; If Dutch were made optional in the Elementary exami- 
 nation, it would retard thoroughness in other subjects, 90, 92 ; Dutch not used as 
 medium of instruction in Normal College school, 90 ; Personal acquaintance with 
 Dutch, 91 ; Boys reluctant to go to the Dutch classes, 92 ; Pu].il teaclier system 
 should be extended, 92 ; S.atus of teachers, 90, 93, 94 ; Schools in Eump,., 9.'', ; Cmi- 
 ver.sational Dutch and proper Dutch, 94 ; Teachers are required for chililreu of tin- 
 agricultural population, but salaries offered are insufficient, 94 ; The governess class 
 should be encouraged, 94.
 
 I'll
 
 GENERAL CIRCULAR AND REPLIES 
 
 EDUCATION COMMISSION.
 
 GENERAL CIRCULAR. 
 
 Cape Town, 
 
 February 25th, 1891. 
 
 EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 Dear Sir, 
 
 The Comniisi5ioTiers appointed to enqilire into various matters connected 
 with the Elementary Educational System of the Colony, are anxious to obtain the 
 opinion of those who are able to judge of its advantages or defects. I have the honour 
 to enclose a series of questions which the Commissioners submit for your consideration, 
 and to ask you to be good enough to give them the benefit of your advice and 
 experience on the points referred to. 
 
 I am directed to ask you to be so good as to restrict your answers to the questions 
 on the subjects with which you have some personal experience, and if possible, to 
 confine your remarks within the limits of this sheet. 
 
 I am, 
 
 Yours obediently, 
 
 W. S. FLETCHEE, 
 
 Secretary. 
 
 1 . What suggestions liave you to offer for remedying the irregularit}' of attendance ? 
 
 (a) In Town Schools. 
 (A) In Coimtry Districts. 
 
 2. In your opinion, could a system of compulsory attendance in the Town Schools be 
 
 enforced ? 
 If so, can you make any suggestions for the practical working of such a system ? 
 
 3. Can you suggest any improvement on the present system of Managers ? 
 
 (a) As to constitution. 
 
 (b) As to mode of election. 
 
 4. What steps should be taken to give Boards of Management perpetual succession, 
 
 and to provide for the tenure of Public School property ? 
 
 5. To what extent should contributions be expected from Local Bodies such a.s Divi- 
 
 sional Councils and Municipalities ? 
 
 (a) For School Buildings. 
 
 (ij) In support of Schools. 
 
 (r) If so, how should such contributions be collected ? 
 
 6. What provision is made in the Schools with which you are acquainted, for instruc- 
 
 tion in the English and Dutch languages ? 
 (rt) Can you suggest any fm-ther facilities ? 
 
 (i) How far do you think that object can be attained through the medium of 
 the Elementary and other examinations ? 
 
 7. What additional facilities, if any, can be provided to meet the wants of the children 
 
 in Agricultural districts ? 
 
 8. Can you suggest any way in which fuller use might be made of the opportiinities 
 
 afforded for Education ? 
 
 9. What is your experience of the working of the present systems of — 
 
 (a) Undenominational Education. 
 
 (A) Schools imder the Volxmtary system. 
 
 (e) Mission Schools. 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] cc
 
 106 REPLIES TO CIRCULAR. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 REPLIES. 
 
 1. What sugestions have you to offer for remedying the irregularity of attendance ? 
 ((() lu Town Schools, 
 (i) In Country Districts. 
 Rev. J. P. Ritchie, Queen's Town. — Either compulsory attendance, or the offering of 
 
 rewards. 
 Rev. J. Baker, Kalk Bay. — Prizes, and some punisliment for non-attendance. Teachers 
 to make enquiries from parents as to cause of absence. 
 
 E. Gilfillan, Esq., Cradock. — More supervision on the part of parents. Corporal punish- 
 
 ment in marked cases. 
 
 F. Mclutyre, Richmond. — A great deal depends on the attitute of teachers towards 
 
 scholars, which should combine the siiavitcr in modo with i'ke fortiter in re. 
 Miss E. Y. Tobias, Paarl. — Attendance good, except in case of two or three poor girls 
 
 obliged to stay at home to assist parents. 
 Mrs. Percival, Cape Town. — A more convenient train and tram service wanted. 
 
 Deduct " punctuality " marks ; give number of ab.seuces on quarterly reports, 
 
 always require a note from parents, to prevent truaucy. 
 S. I'ostma, Burghersdorp. — Would leave matter entirely in the hands of teachers and 
 
 managers. 
 Miss A. P. Ferguson, Wellington. — The awarding of jirizes. Insisting on notes from 
 
 parents to account for absence. Endeavour to get co-operation of parents. 
 Professor J. Gill, M.A., Muizenberg. — The school should be made as attractive as 
 
 possible : co-operation of parents should bo sought, and strict enforcement of 
 
 ])ayment of fees for the whole school term insisted upon. 
 Rev. D. Ross, M.A., Lady Groy. — Compulsory attendance. 
 
 B. P. J. le Roux, Esq., Graaff-Reinet. — Visitation of parents recommended; and 
 
 school to be made attractive. In the country, children's labour frequently 
 wanted at certain seasons ; grant should be made partly dependent upon 
 regularity of attendance. 
 T. Kyd, Esq., M.A., Humansdoi-p. — In country districts, bigger boys are required to 
 assist during liarvest. This (ifteu occurs shortly before holidays. Managers 
 should have right to close school when necessary a little earlier than the 
 almanac allows, and re-open it before the usual time. 
 
 G. Shaw, Esq.. Salem. — Generally due to the faidt of parents, who should be remon- 
 
 strated with. The giving of marks for regular attendance assists. 
 
 Archdeacon Kitton, King William's Town. — Any improvement in attendance must 
 come from a greater appreciation of the value of education on the part of 
 parents, and more control on tlieir jiart over the children. 
 
 W. J. B. Moir, Esq., Lo^edale. — Until compulsory education is possible, the only 
 means seems to be to strengthen, in every possible way, the mutual co-opera- 
 tion of parents and teachers, and for the teachers to do all they can to render 
 school attractive to the children. This can partly be secured by the teacher 
 interesting himself in the children out of school, and assiduously cultivating 
 the friendship of the parents. In fact, his relation to the cliildren should 
 be pastoral as well as tutoral. Every in-egularity should be promptly and 
 strictly followed up. This applies to town and country alike. 
 
 Rev. L. F. Esselen, Worcester. — Besides the moral influence and usual routine of 
 the teacher, by inflicting a fine for absence without permission or valid 
 reason, and Vjy altering in the case of mission scdools, the regulation that 
 the school hom-s .shoidd be both in the fore and afternoon. Parents often 
 require the help of their children and keep them from school. If they had the 
 afternoon free, they would got their work done diuing that time, or even hire 
 out their children for half a day. 
 
 C. Murray, Esq., Deputy Inspector. — Compulsory attendance. There might be a 
 
 regidation of the grants, or a variable portion of the grant, by the average 
 attendance, conjointly with the attendance on the day of inspection. 
 
 H. Nixon, Esq., B. A., Cape Town. — A compulsory attendance regulation, and em- 
 ploj'ment of duly appointed visiting officers. In the case of farm schools, 
 jirobably only indirect means could be used, sucli as reference to the subject 
 in church meetings and the giving of rewards. 
 
 Miss Kingeford, East London. — If a school is well managed, there is not much difficulty 
 in securing regular attendance. Children need the stimulus of marks to
 
 REPLIES TO CIRCULAR. — EDUCATION COimiSSION. 197 
 
 induce thorn to attend regularly. I always require an explanation of absence 
 the next time the child attends, and call the names regularly every day (which 
 is not done in many colonial schools), and I find the pupils are hardly ever 
 absent without some good reason. 
 
 M. M. Venter, Esq., M.L.A., Philipstown. — Complaints as to irregular attendance 
 must be made to the Educational Council of the district. (See answer to 
 question V). 
 
 Eev. J. Brebner, M.A., Bloemfontein. — Teachers should visit parents and impress upon 
 them the injury they are doing their children by allowing irregular attendance. 
 Irregularity is often a result of ignorance, and the character of the teacher is 
 a most potent factor in the matter. In the case of free scholars, who are 
 generally troublesome in this respect, car teachers are instructed to report 
 every month to the committees as to the regularity and behaviour of these 
 scholars ; aud if the report is unsatisfactory, intimation is given that if there 
 is no improver J ent, they will be struck off the free list. 
 
 Eev. J. van der Walt, Colesberg.— In villages it would be impossible for me to say. 
 In the country the difficulty with servants is a great stumbling-block which 
 often obliges parents to keep their children from school iu order not to be 
 exposed to great loss, especially during the harvest and lambing seasons. 
 Too strict regulations in such cases would affect the country schools injuriously. 
 Nevertheless, I think that parents should give reasons for keeping their children 
 at home, and teachers should note them down, so that on examination days those 
 who have been kept at home without proper reasons should have lower marks. 
 
 2. In your opinion could a system of compulsory attendance in Town Schools be 
 enforced 'i 
 If so, can you make any suggestions for the practical working of such a system 'i 
 Eev. J. P. Eitchie, tiueen's Town. — Colonial communities seem as yet scarely ripe for it. 
 
 E. Gilfillan, Esq., Cradock. — Not necessary in country districts. 
 
 F. Melntyre, Esq., Eichmond. — Yes ; a scheme devised by men practically acquainted 
 
 with the details and manner of working in Europe might be tried for a year 
 or so in the larger centres. 
 
 Miss E. Y. Tobias, Paarl. — Not necessary. 
 
 Mrs. Percival, Cape Town. — Not necessary, except by the parents. 
 
 S. Postma, Esq., Burghersdorp.— If compulsory attendance resorted to, recommends 
 appointment of truancy and attendance officers. Those children able to read 
 and write might be excused. Government must supply sufficient school 
 accommodation and extend free education to poor children. 
 
 Miss A. P. Ferguson, WeUington. — Parents should be impressed with the importance 
 of education of their children. If this fails, coercive measures may be 
 necessary. 
 
 Eev. D. Eoss, M.A., Lady Grey.— Yes ; on the lines of the London School Board. 
 
 B. P. J. le Eoux, Esq., Graaff-Eeinet. — Yes ; if provision be made for the free educa 
 tion of the poorer classes from a certain age up to a certain age. Divisional 
 Councils and Municipalities might appoint attendance officers. 
 
 G. Shaw, Esq., Salem. — Not practicable at present. 
 
 Eev. Lamplough, Uueen's Town.— Does not beUeve in compulsory attendance. 
 
 Archdeacon Kitton, King William's Town.— Does not recommend any compulsory 
 system. v i. • 
 
 W. J. B. Moir, Esq., Lovedale. — It might be tried in one or two lai-ger towns, but it 
 is not possible in all towns unless a considerable number of free scholars could 
 be provided for. Compulsory education tends everywhere to become free 
 education. The only practical suggestion for the working of any such system, 
 if adopted, is to follow the lines of the Scotch aud English Acts, which work well. 
 
 Eev. L. F. Esselen, Worcester.— Compulsory education might be enforced by police 
 supervision ; by teachers reporting absences every mouth to certain authontits 
 such as magistrates ; by obliging parentis living within a certain distance of 
 a public school of their'district to pay a certain school fee for every child they 
 have of a certain age to the public school, unless they can show that their child 
 receives instruction esle where or is unable to, attend. 
 
 C Murray, Esq., Deputy Inspector.— A system of compulsory attendance could be 
 enforced. An age limit mil be desirable ; a low attainment hmit necessary. 
 The machinery for the enforcement, inoludmg the appointment of truant 
 officers, &c., should be provided by the local municipal authorities. 
 
 cc 2
 
 198 RKPLIKS TO CIRCULAR, EDUCATION COJIMISSION. 
 
 F. W. Flack, Esq.. M.A., Port Alfred. — Compulsory attendance of all children of 
 si'liool .ige, until they have passed 8tnudard III is most desirable, and could 
 be enfijret'd. Cases of povert}- might be met by the rule that a certain number 
 of chiltb-en are entitled to free education in consideration of the Government 
 grant. Contumacious parents might be rendered liable to prosecution by 
 an Act of Parliament being passed to give necessary powers, and local 
 managers may be trusted to use such powers and prosecute, the costs to follow 
 conviction. 
 
 II. Nixon, Esq., B.A., Cape To^vn. — Yes. Agrees with report of Education Commis- 
 sion lS7!t, par. 10, page 18, recommending modified system being introduced 
 wlicre tlicre are municipalities. 
 
 llov. J. van der Walt, Colesberg. — Taking the circumstances of the Colony into con- 
 sideratiou, I am, on principle, against compidsory education. 
 
 •3. Can you suggest any improvement on the present system of Managers ? 
 ('() As to constitution. 
 (b) As to mode of election. 
 
 Miss liingsford. East London. — Yes. 
 
 M. M. Venter, Esq., M.L.A., Pliilipsto\vn. — It can be done by means of the School 
 Board in the district, who should have the power to decide wliat children shall 
 be obliged to go to «eliool. 
 
 Pev. J. Brobner, M.A., Bloemfontein. — Yes ; a committee appointed by the Volksraad 
 has di-awn up a scheme of Compulsory Education, which is to be submitted 
 this yeai-. It is left to any village, ward, or district to adopt it, if a large 
 majority is in favour. It requires that all children of 12 years old should 
 have reached a certain educational stage, more or less equivalent to Standard 
 III. The committee was divided as to the practicability of introducing the 
 system in (he country districts, but was unanimous that it could be introduced 
 in villages without difficulty. 
 
 liev. J. P. llitchie, (iueen's Town. — Complete alteration of present system urgently 
 necessary. Ratepayers should elect managers, and guarantors be abolished, 
 the whole cf)mmimity or the department being responsible for deficiency. A 
 certain number of managers should retire yearly, and vacancies be filled by 
 annual election. 
 
 Key. J. Baker, Kalk Bay. — Notices for convening meetings of electors should be 
 posted in more spots than one in a place, and ministers of all denominations 
 should have notice by circulai- letter. Has never known of a meeting to be 
 held in Kalk Bay. 
 
 E. Gilfillan, Esq., Cradock. — In this town the school is imder the management of a 
 
 conmiittee subordinate to the Town Council, and works very well. All 
 proceedings are public, and it is the interest of everyone to support the school 
 so as to prevent any deficiency coming on the rates. Suggests all towns 
 following same course. 
 
 F. Mclutyre, Esq., Richmond. — Any one, male or female, should be eligible for a seat 
 
 in the School Council, which might consist of from seven to twelve members. 
 
 The Civil Commissioner of the division should preside ex officio, with the 
 
 clerical members as vice-presidents. AU ratepayers should have the right to 
 
 vote for the election of members. 
 Miss E. Y. Tobia.s, I'aarl. — If managers could be chosen who understand something 
 
 about the management of .schools, intelligent and educated gentlemen, and 
 
 good business men at the same time, it would be an improvement. 
 S. Postma, Esq.. litu-ghcrsdorp. — Present system answers very well in sparsely populated 
 
 towns and villages. The rule for elections might be amended as follows : — 
 
 "That only guarantors shall have a right to elect, and not the public." 
 Miss A. P. Ferguson, Wellington. — The head teacher should be consulted by the 
 
 managers in the choice of assistant teachers and as to school arrangements. 
 
 In case of difiieulty between them, there should be power of appeal from the 
 
 teacher to the Education I)epai'tment. 
 Professor J. Gill, M.A., Muizenberg. — Civil Commissioner or Resident Magistrate, 
 
 whene-ver possible, should be e.r officio chairman of the School Committee, and 
 
 Divisional Councils and Municipalities should appoint each two members. The 
 
 guarantee system should cease. 
 Rev. D. Ross, M.A., Lady Grey. — The constitution and mode of election of Boards of 
 
 Managers might be left as wide and indefinite as possible. Any body of
 
 REPLIES TO CIRCULAR. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. I'^Q 
 
 managers, as long as thoy do good work, and supply local wants thoroughly, 
 might be recognized. 
 
 B. P. J. le Roux, Grraaff-Reinet.— The Graaff-Reinet College Act provides that the 
 
 governing body should consist of seven members, of whom one is appointed by 
 Grovernmeut, one by the Divisional Council, one by tlio Municipality, and four 
 by the subscribers to the eollcgo fund from their number. This works very well. 
 
 T. Kyd, M.A., Humansdorp. — Present system answers fairly well, but it would be 
 much better if all first class schools were placed under Municipalities or 
 Divisional Councils, who should have power to impose an education rate. 
 
 Q-. Shaw, Esq., Salem. — Present constitution seems satisfactory. Town Councils or 
 Village Boards might have an ex officio member on the Boards of Management. 
 
 W. J. B. Moir, Esq., Lovedale. — Managers should represent not only the guarantors, 
 but also the parents of the pupils attending the school. They should be 
 elected partly by the parents of the pupils and by ballr)t. The management 
 of the Grey Institute, Port Elizabeth, is a case in point, and answers well. 
 
 Rev. L. F. Esselen, Worcester. — The Government should have by virtue of the grant 
 which it gives in aid, the right to nominate one-third or one-half of tlie number 
 of managers. The guarantors to elect their quota of the number of the Board 
 first, and then the names of those elected having been notified. Government to 
 appoint their members. 
 
 C. Murray, Esq., Deputy Inspector. — The right of voting rests with voluntary 
 
 guarantors. It might be extended to those parents who have actually paid 
 fees for the instruction of their children. 
 
 F. W. Flack, Esq., M.A., Port Alfred. — Mimicipal and Divisional Councils should be 
 officially represented on Boards of Management to a small extent, without 
 their representatives necessarily becoming guarantors, but subject to the 
 Councils they represent contributing eitlier to the school funds or the 
 guarantee. No vote should be received except from either a subscriber of not 
 less than 5s. per annum, or a guarantor of not less than £-5 per annum. Pro- 
 portionate voting might be permitted. 
 
 H. Nixon, Esq., B.A, Cape Town. — Agrees with report of Education Commission, 1879, 
 
 - pars. 12-14, pages 20-22, recommending committees being transformed into 
 
 corporate bodies, elected by ratepayers, and abolition of guarantee system. 
 
 Bona fide deficiencies should be met, half by local rates and half by general 
 
 revenue. 
 
 Rev. J. van der Walt, Colesberg. — In my opinion the present system has worked well 
 both as regards the constitution and mode of election of the school committees. 
 
 4. What steps should be taken to give Boards of Management perpetual succession, and 
 to provide for the tenure of Public School propei-ty ? 
 
 M. M. Venter, Esq., M.L.A., Philipstown. — If a School Board in each district be 
 appointed, the constitution and election of School Committees may remain as 
 at present. All differences as to constitution or election of any committee 
 might be brought before the School Board, such Board to have complete 
 jurisdiction in all such cases. 
 
 Rev. J. Brebuer, M.A., Bloemfontein. — Has had no experience of the system of 
 managers. The Scliool Committees in the Free State are elected by the 
 people. A proposal is to be made that three of the five members be appointed 
 by the Government. 
 
 Rev. J. P. Ritchie, Queen's Town. — A certain number should retire 3-earlyby rotation, 
 the vacancies being filled by an annual election. School property should be 
 vested either in the To\vn Council or tnkou over as Government property. 
 
 Rev. J. Baker, Kalk Bay. — Oflicials holding positions requii-ing education and intelH- 
 gence should ex officio be members, and some of these should be trustees uf 
 the property. 
 
 E. Gilfillan, Esq., Cradock.- A .-^hort Act of Parliament should be passed. 
 
 F. Mclntyre, Esq., Richmond. — An Act of Parliament should be passed, investing the 
 
 publicly elected School Council with corporate powers to hold property iu 
 perpetuity, an! mortgage same if uecessar}'. 
 Miss E. Y. Tobias, Paarl. — If managers were cert:pn of being longer in ofBce, they 
 might take greater interest. I do not think that the fact of a person's being 
 ready to guarantee a certain sum of money, which he knows he is not at all 
 likely to be called upon to pay, makes him fit to decide iqion matters of school 
 management, such as the qualifications necessary in teachers, and the number 
 required for the work done. Still I do not see how this is to be remedied.
 
 200 REPLIKS TO CrRCCLAR. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 I tliink, however, that principals ought to be c.r officio members of School Com- 
 mittees' tliough that miglit not always work well, and I do not think that I 
 would desire it in ni\- own case. 1 should prefer to be my o^vn committee. 
 
 S. Tostma, Esq., Biu-ghersdorp.— Public School property could be vested in represen- 
 tatives of the different Chui-ch parties wlio erect such buildings, and who are 
 the principal factors in the establishment of the school. In cases of schools 
 established exclusively by the public, the property might be vested in 
 representatives of the public, constituted as follows : two members appointed 
 bv Government, two by Divisional Council, two by Municipality. Or it may 
 be vested in the respective Civil Commissioners and the clergy of the various 
 denominations. (This would only apply to small places.) Regarding " per- 
 petual succession," the only feasible plan would be that newly chosen 
 managers pledge themselves to remain in office after the expiration of the 
 term of three years, until new managers liave been appointed and shall have 
 succeeded to the work. Further, thait managers pledge themselves to take 
 over the responsibilities of predecessors. 
 
 Miss A. r. Fergustm, Wellington.— Managers should be appointed for a certain num- 
 ber of years, the term of not more than two expiring at the same time. 
 Public Scliool ])roperty should be held by school trustees. 
 
 Professor J. Gill, M.A., Muizenberg. — Divisional Councils should be responsible for the 
 proper maintenance of school buildings, &c., which should be vested in tliem 
 as trustees for the public. 
 
 Rev. D. Ross, M.A., Lady Grey. — A short Act of Parliament should be passed. 
 
 13. P. J. le Roux, Graaff-Reinet.— Make them a limited liability company, if practic- 
 able, or a Corporation by Act of Parliament. 
 
 T. Kyd, Esq., M.A., Humansdorp. — All first class schools . should be placed under 
 Divisional Councils or Municipalities, witli power to impose an education rate. 
 
 Ai-chdeaoon Kitton, King William's Town. — Make the Managing Board a corporation, 
 as the Rector of a parish is, or as the Rector and Churchwardens for the 
 time being. 
 
 W. J. B. Moir, Esq., Lovedale. — Boards of Management should have perpetual succes- 
 sion if a portion of eacli Board wore appointed by Government, say the 
 Magistrate, the District Surgeon, and the ministers of all denominations as 
 r.r officio members of the Board, with full power to act, even though alone, 
 and to arrange for the election of the representative part of the Board from 
 among guarantors or parents, or both. The number of elected members 
 should always be equal to the others, or one or two more. Public School 
 property could be held by some public trustee, such as the Attorney-General, 
 the Commissioner of Crown Lands, or the Superintendent-General of 
 Education. 
 
 Rev. L. F. Esselen, Worcester. — To give Boards of Management pei-petual succession, 
 their financial responsibilities should be reduced to a minimum. In cases of 
 deficiency, a certain part should be borne by the Government, either out of the 
 general revenue or out of special funds to be provided. Public School property 
 should be vested in the Government in trust. Local bodies should not be en- 
 trusted therewith, nor a body of guarantors, nor Boards of Managers under the 
 present system. 
 
 C. Murray, Esq., Deputy Inspector. — A preliminary step should be to secure that the 
 guarantee signed by the managers shall be a valid legal document, and to 
 insist on all Boards of Management fulfilling their obligations towards 
 teachers and otherwise, before allowing their responsibihty to lapse by the 
 etHuxion of time. 
 
 F. W. Flack, Esq, M.A., I'ort Alfred. — A connection of the Board of Management 
 with either the Municipal or Divisional Council as suggested in answer 3 
 could secure this, if in the event of a failure to secure sufficient private 
 guarantors, it became compulsory for such Councils to guarantee stipends to 
 teachers of schools certified to be efficient b}' the Superintendent-General of 
 Education or his assistant Inspector. 
 
 11. Nixon, Esq., B.A., Cape Town. — Vidr answer to question III. 
 
 M. M. Venter, Esq., M.L.A., Philipstown. — There must be in each district a per- 
 ])etual Board for Schools in the district and village, composed of five members, 
 one appointed bj' the Government, one by the Municipality of the village, 
 and three bj^ the Divisional Council of the district. All property of public 
 schools should lie transferred to tliis Scliool Board. 
 
 Rev. J. Brcbucr, M.A., Bloemfontein. — All school buildings in the Free State to 
 which tlio Government has contributed any amount, must bo formally trans- 
 ferred in the name of the Government for the puqjoses of education.
 
 REPLIES TO CIECrLAR. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. 201 
 
 Rev. J. van der Walt, Colesterg.— -There lias always been a misBing link in the present 
 system, which may be supplied by the appointment of a local board. In 
 villages these boards could be appointed by the aid of the Municipalities, and 
 in the country by the co-operation of the Divisional Councils. I firmly believe 
 that, if once such boards are constituted, they would greatly benefit education. 
 
 5. To what extent should contributions be expected from Local Bodies such as Divi- 
 sional Councils and Municipalities ? 
 
 {a) For School Buildings. 
 
 (b) In support of Schools. 
 
 (c) If so, how should such contributions be collected ? 
 
 Eev. J. P. Ritchie, Queen's Town. — The public schools should be provided and main- 
 tained by the public, as represented either by Divisional Councils or 
 Municipalities, and the responsibility of guaranteeing any deficiency should 
 rest on such bodies, with power to levy a special rate. 
 
 Rev. J. Baker, Kalk Bay. — 
 
 {a) One-eighth of what is granted by the Government. 
 
 (i) In the inverse ratio of what the inhabitants are able to raise. 
 
 (c) By the collector of road rates, after due notice given. 
 
 E. Grilfillan, Esq., Cradock. — Divisional Councils or Municipalities should have power 
 
 to assess a special rate, but such matters are better left to voluntary effort. 
 It would be weU if all Municipal Councils took over the management of 
 schools, and worked them by a committee, as is done in Cradock, placing on 
 such committee outsiders as well as Councillors. 
 
 F. Mclntyre, Richmond. — 
 
 (a) School buildings should be provided out of the public funds. 
 {h) Divisional Councils and Municipalities should have power to levy a rate. 
 (c) Bj- Divisional Councils and Municipalities. 
 S. Postma, Esq., Burghersdorp. — It is not desirable that public bodies like Divisional 
 Councils and Municipalities should be allowed to interfere in anj' way with 
 the establishment and maintenance of schools. 
 
 Miss A. P. Ferguson, Wellington.— Grants through the Education Department are 
 preferable to local taxation. 
 
 ProfeBsor J. Gill, M.A., Muizenberg. — Schools should be built -in the first instance by 
 loans raised on the security of Municipal or Divisional Council rates, the site 
 and design to be approved by Government. Maintenance to be vested in Divi- 
 sional Councils, who should also receive school fees from the School Com- 
 mittee and be liable for deficieucies in the salaries of teachers : and to have 
 power to rate town properties for the purpose. Perhaps a franchise registration 
 fee of Is. a head annually would meet all cliarges. 
 
 Rev. D. Ross, M.A., Lady Grey.— Such bodies ought not to be in their own right 
 managers of schools, as they seldom consist of the fittest persons, and have too 
 many other things to attend to. Under a compulsory system, they should 
 pay the fees of poor children and send the police after the truants. 
 
 B. P J. le Roux, Graaff-Reinet. — Divisional Councils and Municipalities cannot be 
 expected to contribute of their funds for educational purposes. Government 
 should find some means of raising money, so as to make education either free, 
 or much cheaper than it is at present. 
 
 T. Kyd, M. A., Humansdorp.— Under the present system, Divisional Councils and 
 Municipalities cannot be expected to contribute to the funds of institutions 
 in the management of -which they have no voice, but in those cases where 
 they are the managers, the schools are treated very liberally, and there 
 seems to be no way of securing the assistance of these bodies except by throw- 
 ing the management of the schools entirely into their hands. 
 
 G. Shaw, Esq., Salem.— Divisional Council and Municipal revenues are generally 
 insufficient to enable those bodies to contribute any support to 
 schools. Government should bear all cost of school buildings, and these 
 should revert to Government if no longer required for school purposes. _ 
 
 Archdeacon Kittou, King William's Town.— To as large an extent as it is possible to 
 get out of them. If in no other way by a school rate. 
 
 W J B. Moir, Lovedale.— Probably no contribution should be expected. It was no 
 doubt originally intended that Di\-isional Councils should have to do with 
 education, but it is not now within their horizon. These bodies are elected 
 with a view to the fitness of the members for other kinds of work altogether.
 
 202 KT.PLIBS TO CraCX'LAR. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 l''or that work tlipy may bo fit, but not usually for managing schools. They 
 would not fontribute witlmut representation on the School Board. An 
 attempt might be made to got one or two members of the Divisional Council 
 or Munitii)ality at any place appointed to the School Board, and then some 
 contribution might be given. In Port Elizabeth, Councillors sit on the 
 Grey Institute Board, and the Coimcil supports certain pupils at that school. 
 When an Education rate comes to be imposed, the Divisional Council or 
 Municipality could collect it as parochial bodies do in Scotland, and pay it 
 over to the School Board. 
 
 Rev. L. F. Esselen, Worcester. — Contributions from such local bodies would occasion 
 more trouble and contention than good. Every person should be obliged to 
 pay a certain school fee as suggested under question 2 ; and the (rovornment 
 might contribute also for the building of schools on the £ for £ principle. It 
 has been suggested that all lioud fid$ deficiencies should be a burden on the 
 local Government. The required money would be raised by a special rate, 
 and would be raised only after due audit of the school accounts by the 
 Education Department. 
 
 F. W. Flack, Esq., M.A., Tort Elizabeth.— 
 
 {(i) Boards of Management may reasonably expect that three-fourths of the 
 e.Kpense of the erection of necessary school buildings should be borne by 
 such local bodies, conditionally on the premises being used for school 
 purposes only, and in thinl}' populated districts this is the only way to 
 secure the erection of schools which are not also used for other purposes. 
 {b) To supplement deficiencies and to entitle them to representation on Boards 
 
 of Management, 
 (c) By the Board Secretary applying to the Secretary of the Local Board. 
 
 H. Nixon, Esq., B.A., Cape Town. — All educational wants should be sup]ilied, partly 
 by local rates and partly from the general revenue, and the accounts of 
 every School Board should be subject to a strict audit. Every facility should 
 be given to School Boards to raise money on mortgage or otherwise, and they 
 should have the power of fixing and receiving the fees. 
 
 M. M. Venter, Esq., M.L.A., Philipstown. — Di\'isional Councils should have the right 
 to levy a tax for educational purposes, while each school in the district should 
 apply to the School Board for support, and the School Board, after proper 
 investigation, shall detennine whether and how much shall be given out of 
 the funds annually for the support of the school. Village schools must be 
 treated in the same manner by support out of municipal funds. Such aid, 
 however, must not exceed one half the usual expenses of the school. For 
 school buildings in the district the Divisional Council should pay half, and 
 for village or town schools, the Municipality should pay half. 
 
 Rev. J. Brebner, M.A., Bloemfontein. — In the Free State there are no Divisional 
 Councils. Municipalities do not contribute to schools except by granting 
 erven for building purposes. 
 
 Rev. J. van der Walt, Colesberg. — As long as there are no local boards, as mentioned 
 in answer 4, it will be difficult to obtain aid for schools from the Municipalities 
 and Divisional Councils. 
 
 6. What provision is made in the schools with which you are acquainted for instniction 
 in the English and Dutcli languages ? 
 {a) Can you suggest any further facilities 't 
 
 {b) How far do j'ou think that object can be attained through the medium of 
 the Elementary and other examinations Y 
 Rev. J. P. Ritchie, Queen's Town. — Dutch not taught. Let the few who wish to learn 
 Dutch avail themselves of private instruction. Most of the scholars pick up 
 orally a sufficient smattering of the faal to serve all necessary purposes. 
 Rev. J. Baker, Kalk Bay. — No provision for teaching Dutch ; sufficient for English. 
 Cannot suggest any further facilities. The examinations in question can very 
 considerably further the object ; but to attain it with regard to Dutch would 
 be inexpedient and detrimental to higher objects. 
 
 E. Gilfillan,. Esq., Cradock. — Dutch is made one of the ordinary subjects of education. 
 
 One of the masters is specially charged with teaching Dutch. No further 
 facilities are necessary. 
 
 F. Melntyre, Esq., Richmond. — Everj' provision necessary is made. AM. papers in the 
 
 Elementary and Schools Higher examination should be drawn up in both
 
 REPLIES TO CIRCULAK. — KBUCATION COMMISSION. 203 
 
 English and Dutch, and each candidate for examination should have the 
 option of answering in English or in Dutch, as he or she may consider con- 
 ducive to his or her success. 
 Miss E. Y. Tobias, Paarl. — Dutch is taught in the four highest classes. Eight hours a 
 week arc given to it, which is quite as much as anyone (parents or others; 
 seems to wish for. As to low Dutch, the young people here will not hear of it as 
 a medium of instraction. They wiU not be taught in either Dutch, they 
 much prefer EngUsh. This is their spontaneous expression of opinion. Though 
 they speak low Dutch in their homes very often, they write all their letters in 
 English. They cannot ^vrite the taal. They are utterly opposed to the idea 
 of receiving instruction in that dialect, and their parents are most anxioiis 
 that they should learn to speak good English. As to the Elementary ex- 
 amination, it is a very great help in teaching English, and a very fail- tpst of 
 Elementary English work. It is not too difficult for Dutch girls, and the 
 standard should not be lowered. I have been in the Paarl as school principal 
 for 4 1 years, and I know that the people do not want Dutch. In order to 
 make their children speak only English, they sometimes send them away to 
 boarding schools. In my school at Queen's Town we had nothing to do with 
 Dutch, and it was considered a great hardship that it shoidd be made so nearly 
 compulsory in the teacher's examination, as it it a language not much required 
 in the Eastern Province. 
 Mrs. Percival, Cape Town. — At " Vredenburg High School " instruction in Dutch is 
 given free to all boarders who wish to learn it, and a minimum of the fee 
 charged to the poorer day pupils. The best master available for Dutch is 
 procured. A fair share of the daily time table {b\ hours per week for the 7 
 pupils learning Dutch) and two hours per week with their minister, the Rev. 
 Mr. Miiller. All their devotions and Bible reading (private) are in Dutch. 
 There might be more frequent opportunities, generally speaking, for con- 
 versation in good Dutch, and prohibition of the common Dutch. In the 
 examinations, a language other than English might be required, and Du< ch 
 (optional) could be one. In the " Vredenbiu-g High School " English is the 
 medium of instruction. This aiiords the highest facilities known for acquir- 
 ing a thorough knowledge of any language. In genuine Dutch schools the 
 Dutch language should be the medium of instruction. 
 S. Postma, Esq., Burghersdorp. — In the literary department of the Theological 
 Seminary at Burghersdorp, the rule followed is to teach each language as 
 much as possible through itself as a medium. The course in Dutch comprises 
 Dutch grammar, composition, literature and general history. In English, 
 the course prescribed by the University. We have besides a practice in 
 speaking once a fortnight, alternately, in Dutch and English, when students 
 have to speak or debate on subjects of their own choice, and arc criticised in 
 class. The relation of the two languages to one another entirely depends 
 upon their relation in the University examinations. Dutch shoidd be addi'd 
 as an extra subject in the Elementary examination, and the same marks for 
 Dutch be given as for English. In the Matricidation examination, special 
 literary pieces should be sd; in Dutch as in English, and the marks be the 
 same also as for English. 
 Miss A. P. Ferguson, WelUngtou. — Two teachers give instruction in Dutch at the 
 Hugenot Seminary. Instruction in the English language is given in each 
 class. In the Elementary examination Dutch should be made an optional 
 subject ; pupils would then be much better prepared for advanced work in 
 Dutch. 
 Professor J. Gill, M.A., Muizenberg. — Can think of no proposal that would not disturb 
 the existing school system and the competitive value of the pubHc examinations 
 out of all proportion to the advantage sought. Has reason to think that tlie 
 desire for formal instruction in Dutch is by no means general among Dutch 
 parents, the view of the majority seeming to be that Dutch is learned 
 sufficiently in the home, and that other things should be taught in the school. 
 One Dutch teacher assui-es me that he has met with a steadfast refusal when- 
 ever he has pressed the teaching of Dutch on parents. 
 Siev. D. Poss, M.A., Lady Grey. — Dutch is much more generally taught now than it was 
 thirty years ago ; but chiefly by separate Dutch lessons. The medium through 
 which the branches arc tauglit is still English. In schools where the children 
 arc both of Dutch and ]<]uglish parentage, and where children attend school 
 lor several years successively, this is, in present circiuustances, probably the 
 best. Where the children are of Dutch parentage, and school life is short, 
 [G. 9— '91.] DD
 
 204 IIKI'LILS TO CIRCriAR. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 Dutch ought certainly to be the universal medium. It might also bo mado 
 tlip medium of oortnin subjects in high schools. At present the Elementary 
 exiimiiiatiim in l>utcli would seiirct'ly attiaet an^- candidates. The setting of 
 the p.ifiers would be " Love's Labour Lost." Special prizes or bursaries 
 would be more effective. 
 B. P. J. le Roux, .GraafF-Reinet. — In most ."schools -with which lam acquainted, both 
 English and Dutch are taught, English being the medium of instruction. 
 The demand for more Dutch instruction in certain schools is a just one, and 
 should not be ignored. Candidates for the Elementary examination shoidd 
 be allowed to take the whole of the Elementary examination in Dutch, if 
 the}' wish it. 
 T. Kyd, M.A.., Humansdorp. — In this school Dutch is systematically taught in the 
 first and second classes. In the second class the instruction is confined to 
 simple reading, translation and dictation. In the first class grammar is 
 taught, and translation, dictation and Dutch composition are carried on 
 continuously. For those preparing for higher examinations, special arrange- 
 ments are made. A great impetus would bo given to the study of the 
 language, if as an alternative to the English essay in the Elementary 
 examination a simple examination in Dutch were given. This might consist 
 of a simple narrative in Dutch, to be translated into English, and short 
 sentences to be translated into Dutch, and perhaps a few lines of original 
 composition. Though I have been inspecting farm schools for ten years, I 
 have never seen a school where Dutch was taught. I am sm-e that almost 
 all the children who go up for the Elementary examination would prefer 
 being examined in English rather than in Dutch, but the English essay is 
 what they are verj' much afraid of, and rarely do themselves justice in. I 
 am speaking of those to whom Dutch is the mother tongue. I think that an 
 arrangement such as I suggest would put English and Dutch cliildren more 
 on a level than they are now. 
 Gr. Shaw, Esq., Salem. — In all schools with which I am acquainted, English is the 
 medium of instruction, and every endeavour is made to impart a good 
 knowledge of that language. Dutch, if taught at all, is treated as an extra 
 subject. Instruction in Dutch would be facilitated by the publication of a 
 more convenient series of reading books and a more suitable grammar than 
 have hitherto appeared. It is undeniable that the Elementary and other 
 school examinations are a great help to tho general proficiency of schools, and 
 offer a solid basis for a thorough acquaintance with English or with Dutch, 
 which may be chosen as a subject of examination in the School Higher 
 examination. 
 Rev. J. L. Cachet, Steynsburg. — In the public schools I am acquainted with, the instruc- 
 tion in Dutch is but nominal, chiefly because Dutch is not required, nor does it 
 count in tho school examinations. If this could be altered, a strong impulse 
 would be given to the study of Dutch. 
 Rev. Lamplough, Queen's To:vn. — In the Native schools generally, English and Kafir 
 are taught. In schools attended by Dutch-speaking people, that language 
 is taught as well as English. 
 W. J. B. Moir, Esq., Lovedale. — Classes are provided in tho Institution for English and 
 Dutch. There are two Dutch classes. It is desirable, perhaps, that all 
 Dutch-speaking pupils should have some instruction of an accurate kind in 
 their own tongue, but Dutch is not their tongue, as Dutch is taught from 
 books and by teachers. Beyond this, no further facilities arc required. The less 
 the study of Dutch is encouraged, excejit for special kinds of work, the better 
 it will be for j'oung and old ; Dutch should be as optional as German, and 
 probably the number of persons who speak German in South Africa is as 
 large as the number who speak grammatical or book Dutch. The language 
 other than English that is important here is Kafir, for which we have a 
 variety of classes. It is in every way of more importance for South Africa 
 than Dutch. More people speak it. It has grammar, vocabulary, and a 
 growing literature. 
 Rev. L. F. Esselen, Worcester. — General instruction is chiefly given in the language 
 the pupils understand best ; the other language is taught by reading, dicta- 
 tion, translation, &c. In examination it would be necessary to give the ques- 
 tions in both languages, as every candidate" for the Elementary examination 
 should know enough English to imder.stand them, making allowance for the 
 greater difficulty of the Dutch grammar. In addition to occasional visits to 
 outlying districts, my circuit of inspection comprises the Cape Peninsula. In 
 the Dutch Reformed, Wesleyan, and Moravian mission schools, children are
 
 REPIIES 10 CIECTJLAE. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. 205 
 
 taught to read and, to a small extent, to write Dutch as well a.s English. 
 In the English, Roman Catholic, and Independent schools, attended by very 
 much the same class of children, English only is tauglit. In the public 
 schools visited by me in the same circuit Dutch is taught as one of the foreign 
 languages. In three public schools it is not taught at all. In all these 
 schools English is the medium of instruction. Cape Dutch is the vernacular 
 of a large proportion of the children attending the lower grade of schools and 
 the only language understood by a considerable part of that number. It 
 appears educational economy of force to utihze a simple form of Dutch in 
 explanation of the Englisli reading books in these classes, even if the attempt 
 be not made to teacly Dutch reading to all children speaking Cape Dutch. 
 Occasional visits of/inspection to other districts east of Calviuia, Victoria 
 West, &c., make me think that the contention of those who claim that the 
 early instruction of Dutch-speaking children on farm.s, and in remote localities 
 where but little English is spoken, should be in Dutch, is well founded. It 
 appears quite possible to promote a more general and careful study of Dutch 
 in the schools by recognizing it at the school examinations without penalizing 
 those candidates who are ignorant of the language. 
 F. W. Flack, M.A., Port Alfred. — It would be absm-d to teach the Dutch language in 
 such a district as this, where it is seldom heard in ordinary conversation. 
 Should Dutch families come to live in the neighbourhood, of course it would 
 be taught by allowing the candidates to answer the questions set in the 
 Elementary examination in either language and by a duplicate set of ques- 
 tions, if necessary. It woidd be very inconvenient, owing to the best text 
 books being in English, and hamper teachers. 
 H. Nixon, Esq., B.A., Cape Town. — (a) The head teacher or an assistant gives lessons 
 in reading, transcription, dictation, composition, and elementary grammar ; 
 {h) In ever}^ i^ublic school one teacher should be competent to instruct in 
 Dutch and English ; (c) By setting three papers for an optional examination 
 in the Dutch language, viz. : (1) A paper for translation from Dutch into 
 English ; (2) One from English into Dutch, and (3) A very simple paper 
 in Dutch grammar. The names of candidates taking Dutch, and the marks 
 obtained should be published in a separate list. 
 M. M. Venter, Esq., M.L.A., Philipstown. — In the district schools the mother tongue 
 of the cliildren ought to be first taught. If children have been taught Dutch 
 subjects, the Inspector must examine them in those subjects in Dutch. 
 Rev. J. Brebner, Al.A., Bloemfontein. — In all Government and Government aided 
 schools in the Free State, Dutch is compulsory, while in almost all the 
 schools English is taught alongside of Dutch. No one can pass any public 
 examination without knowing Dutch. 
 Rev. J. van der Walt, Colesberg. — In the schools with which I am acquainted, both 
 Dutch and English are taught, but, owing to the Dutch being always placed 
 in the back-ground in om- public examinations, it has always been neglected. 
 I think that, in the Elementary examinations, Dutch shoidd be placed on the 
 same footing with English. 
 
 7. What additional facilities, if any, can be provided to meet the wants of the ohildi-en 
 
 in Agricultural districts ? 
 Rev. J. Baker, Kalk Bay. — Providing them with very simple reading books on subjects 
 
 within theii' grasp, and such as afford pleasure in contemplation. 
 T. Kyd, Esq., M.A., Humansdorp. — Present facilities qiute sufficient. 
 
 E. GilfiUan, Esq. , Cradock. — Wants are sufficiently met by country schools now existing ; 
 
 but before grants are made, some investigation as to the teacher's capabilities 
 should be made, as well as to the accommodation. 
 
 F. Mclntyre, Richmond. — Little more can be done, except in the way of supplying 
 
 buildings where required, and giving grants of school books and materials. 
 
 S. Postma, Esq., Burgliersdorp. — An increase of grant should be given to country 
 schools, as country people do not enjoy the some facilities in r< gard to the 
 erection of school buildings as townspeople ; or the Government m.gkt extend 
 aid towards the erection of such buildings on the £ for £ principle. 
 
 Miss A. P. Ferguson, Wellington. — Many more teachers are needed for the Agricultural 
 Districts. Many more requests for teachers are received than can be met. 
 The number of p\ipil teachers pledged to become teachers might with advantage 
 
 DD 2
 
 206 REPLIES TO CIRCULAR. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 be grrently increased. Many apply to enter the Normal department at the 
 JJiiguenot Seminary, who have not the means to meet the exponse. 
 
 Professor J. Gill, M.A., Mui/.enberg. — Can suggest none but an imjiroveraent in the 
 position of tutors and governesses. Tliis migjit be compassed by a mutual benefit 
 society, subsidised— under duo safeguards — by Uovernmont, and by affortling 
 form teachers special facilities for jiassing the University examinations, and 
 so qualifying themselves for api)nintments in schools. Tlie. improved prospect 
 would attract more workers, and zeal would be quickened liy increased con- 
 sideration and advantages. The cheapening oT books and book conveyance 
 for school purposes deserves consideration. 
 
 Rev. D. lloss, A[.A., Lady Grey. — The ]iarents must learn to feel that.these wants are 
 real and urgent. A felt want can be supplied in some way, but often 
 facilities afforded are only labour wasted. 
 
 B. P. J. lo Koux, Esq., Gh-aaff-Ueinet. — Establish more agi-icultural schools. 
 
 G. Shaw, Esq., 8alem. — The present facilities are exceedingly liberal. 
 
 llev. Lamj)lough, (iueen's Town. — In this district, the wants of the white children on 
 farms are generallj' well attended to. 
 
 Ai-chdeacon Kitton, King William's Town. — No further facilities required. There are 
 too many small schools already, and good central schools are less easily 
 kept up. 
 
 W. J. B. Moir, Esq., Lovcdale. — Tlie needs of the European cliildreu in agricultural 
 districts are well provided for ; but nothing at all is done for the children of 
 servants, Hottentot and Kafir. It might be arranged by the Education 
 Department tliat farm school teachers and " bijwouers " teacliers should give, 
 say, three hours a day to the wliite children, and two hours or an hour and 
 a-half to the coloured cldldren of servants, squatters, &c. 
 
 Rev. L. E. Esselen, Worcester. — No additional facilities than those already provided by 
 Government appear to be required at present. 
 
 F. W. Flack, Esq., M.A., Port Alfred. — The employment of a system of pupil teachers 
 who shall bo allowed to take charge of the children of two or more farms for 
 four days of the week, and receive instruction themselves under a certificated 
 toa(;her in some central position on a certain day. 
 
 H. Nixon, Esq., B.A., Cape Town. — Larger grants, after report of Inspector, might 
 be given to private farm schools ; the grant, however, as now, not to exceed 
 £-iO. All schools should be inspected by the Inspectors of the Department, 
 two or three additional Inspectors being appointed without delay. At 
 present the Inspectors are hurried, and sometimes overworked. 
 
 Rev. J. Brebner, M.A., Blocmfontein. — In the Free State there are in the country, 
 ward schools (country boarding schools), itinerant schools, and aided private 
 schools. At present a school can be established on any farm where there is a 
 minimum of ten children in average attendance. 
 
 Rev. J. van der Walt, Colesberg. — Education in the agricultural districts is more 
 difficult and more expensive on account of the sparseness of the population, and 
 is therefore very much neglected. I think that more assistance should be 
 given to schools on farms attended by six or seven children. The Govern- 
 ment should pay at least one-thii'd of the salary of the teacher, because the 
 present aid to schools on farms is very inadequate, and people take it in order 
 not to be wholly deprived of assistance. 
 
 8. Can you suggest any way in which fuller use might be made of the opportunities 
 afforded for Education ? 
 
 Rev. J. P. Ritchie, Queen's Town.— Tlie greatest drawback is the too early withdrawal 
 of scholars from school. A few bequests of scholarships to promising pupils as 
 an aid to the prosecution of Iheii- studies would, no doubt, in many cases be 
 of immense service. 
 
 T. Kyd, EiJq., M.A , Humansdorp.— The only class of people who seem to derive no 
 lic-nefit from the existing facilities for education is that of " Bijwoners," 
 residing at a distance from the principal homestead of the farm. These 
 people are often poor, and have no means of procuring education for their 
 children. I think that their case would be best mot by a system of small 
 bxu-saries, to assist in defraying the cost of the children's board at the nearest 
 farm school. 
 
 F. Moliityre, Esq., Richmond.— Branch schools of lower grades than that which forms 
 the chief public school in a town, might be established, one or more in
 
 REPLIES TO CIRCULAR. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. 207 
 
 proportion to the size of the town— to which the poor might be admitted free 
 on understanding that the Government waive their right in consideration of 
 this, to send any scholars free into the head school. 
 
 Miss E. Y. Tobias, Paarl. — Parents in the country districts do not send their children 
 to school soon enough. I get very backward pupils from country places 
 sometimes, but the people at the Paarl send us their children when quite 
 young. 
 
 Mrs. Percival, Cape Town. — It rests mainly with parents and pupils. Much may be 
 done by the personal irfluence of teachers; careful orginization ; connect, 
 well-judged discipline and careful attention to home work. 
 
 Miss A. P. Ferguson, Wellington.— The plan of Sir Langham Dale to establish fourth 
 class schools would give to poor white children an adeantage now open to 
 children attending mission schools. A minister preached every >Sunday for a 
 year on the duties of parents to their children, and as a result, has several 
 schools in every part of his congregation. 
 
 Professor J. Grill, M.A., Miiizenberg. — The cheapening of all school books and appliances. 
 Eeduction of railway Jfares to a nominal sum. Eetum of fees — say half- 
 yearly — to a limited number of children, who should be distinguished for 
 regularity of attendance, progress and good conduct. 
 
 Eev. Lamplough, Queen's Town. — The opportunities afforded for education in this 
 district are generally appreciated by the English portion of the population. 
 
 Kev. L. F. Esseleu, Worcester. — FuUer use of the opportunities for education might be 
 made by parties availing themselves of the liberality of Government in this 
 respect. 
 
 C. Murray, Esq., Deputy Inspector. — The want of permanence in the managing 
 bodies is generally recognized. It is one of the hindrances to securing a 
 thoroughly efficient body of teachers. 
 
 F. W. Flack, Esq., M.A., Port Alfred. — By making education compulsory for all children 
 over five years of age residing within two miles of a Government school, 
 until they have passed Standard III, or reached the age of 12. Children 
 educated privately might be rendered liable to satisfy the Resident Magis- 
 trate that their education was not being neglertod. 
 
 H. Nixon, Esq., B.A., Cape Town.- — Where schools exist on farms, the proprietor 
 might be encouraged hy a grant, to take in as boarders the children of very 
 poor parents. The grant might be £12 per annum for each poor child, 
 certificates of poverty being signed by a clergjTuan or by the nearest magis- 
 trate. Schools for poor whites, other than mission schools, should be set up 
 in towns. These might be fourth class schools, as recommended by the 
 Superintendent- General of Education. A Minister of Education or an 
 Educational Council should be appointed. 
 
 M. M. Venter, Esq., M.L.A., Philipstowu. — The School Board in the district must 
 take care that where it is necessary schools be established, and they must even 
 have the right to compel parents to make use of them. 
 
 Rev. J. Brebner, M.A., Bloemfontein. — In the Free State the difficulty is to g^i the 
 people aroused to take advantage of the facilities offered, and many are only 
 now awakening to a sense of the privileges within their reach. Many of the 
 country people read no newspaper, and are unacquainted with the School 
 Ordinance. The only way of reaching the mass of the people, at present, 
 is by getting the clergymen to preach on the subject. 
 
 Rev. J. van der Walt, Colcsberg. — More assistance to those living far apart and a 
 better Master and Servants Law. 
 
 9. What is your experience of the working of the present systems of — 
 
 (rt) Undenominational Education. 
 
 {})) Schools under the voluntary system. 
 
 (c) Mission Schools. 
 Rev. J. P. Ritchie, Queen's Town. — My experience has been confined entirely to the 
 
 undenominational system, and my decided conviction is that on no other basis 
 
 can any comprehensive system of national education be successfully 
 
 established. 
 Rev. J. Baker, Kalk Bay. — 
 
 [n) A want of the only true foundation of moral character — Religion. 
 
 {h) A want of keeping the cliildren from changing schools from thos ; of one 
 denomination to those of another.
 
 208 REPLIES TO CIECTILAH. — KDUCAXlOW COMMISSION. 
 
 ((•) A great injury is done to many superior ehildren in keeping tliem, for 
 tlie soke of one branch, in a lower star.ilard than that whieli liiey should 
 bo in for other branches, such as dilatation, grammar, reading, &c. Some 
 . children have a natural iiiiiLility for one ov two studies, sueli as mental 
 arithmetic. Many girls cannot succeed in arithmetic. Dictation should 
 be the ordinary test. 
 T. Kyd, Esq., M.A.. Ilunuuisdorp. — I have had no experience, except in undenomi- 
 national Behools, and think the system answers very well. I liave had 
 children of all denominations under my charge, and have never found any- 
 where that parents objected to the childi-en reading the Bible, and very few 
 did not attend when religious instruction was givi n by the minister of the 
 Dutch Reformed Church. 
 Mrs. Percival, Cape To%vu. — My experience of undenominational education is that it 
 works excellently. With an average attendance of 140 pupils (including 
 boarders) during' the past year, only those who are members of the Free 
 Protestant Church declined to study the Bible. Even the Jewesses take 
 Scripture lessons with us in the Old Testament regularly, and we hold 
 Scripture classes twice a week, besides opening school every morning with 
 prayer and Bible reading, with as many as can be present by 8-50 a.m. For 
 resident pupils, who wish to become members of anj' particular chiu-ch, we 
 always make arrangements with their respective clergy either to attend at 
 the school, or to receive the pupils at their own home. 
 Miss E. Y. Tooias, Paarl. — I taiight for 3| j-ears in a voluntary school in Queen's 
 Town, and have been teaching in undenominational schools for nearly five 
 years. I see no difference in the schools, except that the aided schools can 
 keep up better in " bad times." In both sorts of schools I have given all 
 the religious instruction myself, and no one has interfered with me at all, and 
 I did quite as good work in the voluntary school (Wesleyan High School) in 
 Queen's Town, as I am doing at the Paarl in an aided school. 
 F. McIntjTe, Esq., Richmond. — 
 
 (a) My own experience is that undenominational education is the only system 
 that is calculated to achieve much good in a country such as this is — so 
 sparselj' pop\ilated, and where religious bodies, as a rule, have not the 
 means at their disposal to meet all tlie reqidi-emeuts which only the 
 Government are able and powerful enough to satisfy. 
 (//) I do not know much of schools of the voluntary system, — in fact I have 
 verj' little faith in anything that is voluntary ; for I know by experience 
 in some directions that roliinffiri/ is almost synonymous with preeariousness 
 and want of permanence. 
 As regards (c) mission schools, that is, for the coloured population, as carried 
 on at jiresent, they are simply doing more harm than good. Teach the 
 native or coloured population to read and write, if you like, but to 
 initiate them iiito the preliminary mysteries of all the 'ologies, &c., which 
 is done at present, is simply unfitting them for the position in life which 
 they •were intended by the principle that governs the survival of the 
 fittest, to adorn, and gradually preparing the country, for an era of 
 stnhea and socialism, and consequent anarchy with all its customary 
 attendant horrors. They should have a iieir system of mission schools, 
 where manual labour holds the sway, and whore book learning is con- 
 spicuous by its absence. 
 E. GrilfiUan, Esq., Cradock. — The undenominational school here has worked very well 
 for the past 15 or 20 j-ears. and I would be very sorry to see the system 
 altered. There is but one voluntary school at Cradock, and it seems to be 
 well patronized, but chiefly by girls and infants. I doiibt its continued 
 success in competing with tlie aided schools. The mission schools here are 
 chiefly for natives. I am not an admirer of these schools ; boys and girls 
 mix together, and the children arc kept at school too long. They should sooner 
 be put out to service. In conclusion, I beg to state that in all schools there 
 is too much made of the higher subjects. Children are taught algebra. &c., 
 ■when they are wholly unable to do addition and multiplication ; Grreek and 
 Latin, when their time would be more usefully spent learning modern 
 languages; writing is wholly neglected. 
 S. Postma, Esq., Burghersdorp. — I consider the term "Undenominational" a misnomer. 
 The Public School system has been of incalculable benefit to the Colony, but 
 its fruits have been reaped almost exclusively by the children of townspeople 
 and (vell-to-do farmers. The District Boarding School is therefore a timely 
 blessing to the farmers. My experience in connection with voluntary teach-
 
 REPLIES 10 CIKCl'LAR. — EDUCATION COMMISSIOX. 209 
 
 ing is that when education is based upon the iurlividual and independent 
 elloits of parents, they take more interest in it and prize it higher. To some 
 extent, however, voluntary schools, in spite of the fruits they have home, 
 are seriously hampered by being forced to rely entirely upon voluntary 
 contributions, which again dejiends upon the degree of interest in education 
 with which the parents are animated. So long as parents are not fully alive 
 to the wants of their children in this respect, Government might encourage 
 existing schools on the voluntary principle, according to the suggestions made 
 by Sir Langham Dale in his reports of 1887 and 1889. 
 
 Miss A. P. Ferguson, Wellington. — My expeiience of the working of the present system 
 of undenominational education is a very pleasant relation for seventeen years 
 to the Education Department, to the trustees of the Huguenot Seminary, and 
 to the School Committee of Wellington, whom we have found ready to 
 advance the interests of our work, and at the same time have left us free to 
 do om- best. 
 
 B. P. J. le Rous, Esq., Grraaff-Reinet.— (") The present system works well ; (6) Private 
 schools, which are as a rule established for private pm'poses, and to serve 
 pi'ivate interests, shoiild not be endowed by Government ; {c) The grants to 
 mission schools might be increased.- 
 
 G. Shaw, Esq., Salem. — The working of the present system of undenominational educa- 
 tion is very satisfactory. 
 
 Rev. Lamplough, Queen's Town. — All systems are found to work successfully, provided 
 suitable teachers are in charge of the schools. My experience leads me to 
 think that the moral tone of denominational "schools is higher than that of 
 undenominational. 
 
 Archdeacon Kitton, King William's Town. — The bulk of the public money goes to 
 support imdenominational schools, wliich, as for instance. Dale College, King 
 William's To\vn, are attended by children of merchants and others, who can 
 well afford to educate their own sons. Denominational schools, equally good, 
 get no help, and are thus heavily handicapped. Mission schools are doing a 
 good work. 
 
 W. J. B. Moil-, Esq., Lovedale. — The present systems all work well. Oui- actual experi- 
 ence is chieily confined to mission schools. The matters pressing for improve- 
 ment there are, (1) the more regular payment of the local contributions The 
 grant might be made to bear some proportion to these, and to the actual local 
 payments ; (2) the habit which is growing of teachers moving from school to 
 school, failing to keep engagements, and after a short time abandoning 
 teaching altoeether. If the local contributions were punctually paid, 
 without worry to the teacher, and were sufficient, the temptation to short 
 periods of service and to seeking other work altogether would be largely 
 removed. 
 
 Rev. L. F. Esselen, Worcester. — The system of grants for mission schools might, if 
 possible, be altered and improved. Large and expensive buildings, with four 
 to five separate class-rooms, eight to ten teachers and assistants, and more than 
 400 pupis, not to be restricted to the same gi-ant of £75, as those with only 
 one or two class-rooms, two or three teachers, and comparatively few pupils. 
 
 C Murray, Esq., Deputy Inspector. — The mission schools in Cape Town are doing a 
 most important work, and that not efficiently. The funds of the schools, derived 
 from Government grants and otherwise are too weak to attract an eflBcient 
 class of teachers. In the laudable attempt to bring the schoolmaster to every 
 farm in the country, the fair claims of the mixed town popidation must not 
 be overlooked. 
 
 F. W. Flack, Esq., M.A., Port Alfred. — As the undenominational system is worked 
 here, with facilities for religious instruction, it is the only sj-stem which 
 could be of avail for children of parents of widely varied reHgious opinions. 
 
 H. Nison, Esq., B.A., Cape Town. — 
 
 {(() It is unsatisfactory in several respects. Under the present system there 
 is no one to advocate the interests of education in PaaUament ; no 
 Minister of Public Instruction. There is great difficulty in getting the 
 money requu-ed by the local bodies at many of the schools, which keeps 
 back the school buildings, &c., and often prevents competent teachers 
 being employed. The local contributi9ns should be raised by a rate, so 
 that the whole of the inhabitants of a district should be called upon to 
 support the education of the district. The Boai'd of Managers should 
 be elected in the same way as a Divisional Coimcil or Municipality. 
 Further inducements should be offered for attracting iiud retaining com- 
 petent teachers.
 
 lilO UEI'LIES TO CIRCULAR. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 (/>) If by " Schools under the voluntary system " is meant schools under the 
 supei'intendence of the several Colonial Churches, other than mission 
 schools, then I am of opinion that where such schools submit to inspec- 
 tion, they should, if tlieir promoters so desire, be aided by a Government 
 grant, provided {a) that the Suhool Inspector of the district, as well as 
 the Resident Magistrate, certify- that the Public School aciommodation 
 is insufficient for the educational needs of the place ; and {//) that the 
 Inspector certifies that the general arrangements as to jiremises and 
 teaching staff, &c., are satisfactory. No private adventure school should 
 receive a grant. Agrees generally with report of Education Commission 
 of 1879 on the subject. 
 (c) Mission school teachers should receive higher salaries, and there should bo 
 larger grants in aid from Government. A normal school like that con- 
 nected with the Dutch Hcformod Chiu'cli should be established to 
 supply teachers. Mission schools, as a wliole, might safely be merged 
 into third class schools, and the churches thus relieved, so tliat they 
 miglit give their money to their legitimate work — the spread of the 
 Gospel among the heathen. 
 Miss Ivingsford, East London. — There is a want of good tone, as a ride, in undenomi- 
 national schools. Religious teaching is the best way of imparting a good 
 tone, and to be real it must bo connected with some denomination. Such 
 teaching can be so given as to cause no offence to parents or children of 
 other denominations. 
 M. M. Venter, Esq., M.L.A., Philipstown. — Unsoctarian schools do not answer among 
 the country population. Voluntary schools answer very well for the country 
 people, but for want of means they cannot be maintained. 
 Rev. J. Brebncr, M.A., Bloemfontein. — In the Free State the system is imdenomina- 
 tional, and the schools are managed by committees chosen by the people. 
 The only exceptions are the two Higher Schools, in which, on account of 
 historical reasons connected with the founding, the curators are appointed 
 partly by the Volksraad and paiily by the D. R. Cluu'ch. There are Educa- 
 tional grants to three native reserves, but these are not made to any missionary 
 body, though the management is of necessity in the hands of one or other of 
 the churches. No grants are made to private schools in villages. In the 
 country no enquiry is made as to the founders of the private schools. The 
 grant depends on the fulfilment of the conditions and the state of the school. 
 Rev. J. van der Walt, Colesberg. — In unsectarian schools the principal object is to 
 make the pupils pass examinations whilst sound knowledge is more or less 
 neglected On the contrary, voluntary schools regulate their instruction accord- 
 ing to the time that the pupils have to remain at school, and, therefore, answer 
 the purjiose better. As regards mission schools, I do not hesitate to say that 
 out of ten who leave school scarcely one or two can be found who have profited 
 by the instruction they have received there. They are taught above thoii- 
 station in life and are of no use to the community.
 
 A.Pr»ENDICES 
 
 TO 
 
 REPORT AND PROCEEDINGS 
 
 OF THE 
 
 EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] KE
 
 APPENDICES TO REPORT AND PROCEEDINGS 
 
 OF THE 
 
 EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 APPENDIX A. 
 
 Somerset East, 10th February, 1891. 
 
 The Honouiable the Colonial Secretary, 
 
 Cape Town. 
 
 Sir, — I am instructed by the Synod of the Dutch Reformed Cluirch to communicate to 
 you the following motions, bearing on the subject of Education in this Colony, which were 
 adopted at their last meeting, with the request that you wiU be so kind as to submit them 
 to Government, and ask for their favourable consideration : — 
 
 1. The Sj-nod approves of the plan of tlie Superintendent-General of Education, to 
 
 endeavour to procure from Government an increase of the number of PupU Teacheri, 
 in order that they may be trained as Teachers for District Schools. 
 
 2. Taking into consideration the condition of our country, the existing system of 
 
 colleges supported by Government is, in the opinion of this Assembly, more advan- 
 tagfious to the advancement of Higher Education than the assembling of all 
 students in one University. 
 
 3. That the Sj-nod bring to the notice of those in authority the desirability of making 
 
 Bible Histojry a subject taught in aU schools. 
 
 4. That the Synod request Government so to extend its support of Education that all 
 
 scliuols aided by the country should have half their necessary expenses paid by 
 Government. 
 
 .5. That the Sj-nod request Government to take steps for the establisliiug of an Indus- 
 trial Department in connection with the Boys' Public Schools in our cities and towns. 
 
 6. The Synod approves of the estabbshing of the proposed fourtli-class schools for poor 
 European children, provided they are managed Ijy the committees of existing 
 Public Schools, or by committees ( hosen by the pubUc, with the consent of the 
 committees of existing Public Schools. 
 
 I have, &c., 
 
 (Signed) 
 
 J. H. 
 
 HOFMEYE. 
 Scriba Svnodi. 
 
 APPENDIX B. 
 
 Rfctian showing the number of white and coloured chikli-en attending Mission 
 Schools in the following towns : — 
 
 1 White. 
 1. Cape Town ' -',955 
 
 Coloured. 
 4,283 
 
 2. Graham's Town "10 
 
 377 
 
 3. King "William's Town 640 
 
 75 
 
 4. Paarl H'' 
 
 1,038 
 
 .5. Port Ehzabeth 
 
 1,118 
 
 1,180 
 
 6. Stellenbosch . . 
 
 38 
 
 676 
 
 7 . Worcester . . . . . • . • • ■ 33 
 
 668
 
 214 
 
 APPENDIX C. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 
 
 APPENDIX C. 
 
 
 List of District Mission Sdiools in Capo Town into which white children arc 
 admitted ; and the number of white childi-en reported to attend each Mission School. 
 
 
 
 
 
 Number of 
 Children. 
 
 Cape Town, Dietrict No. 1 , S. Andi'ew'e (Scotch Church) 
 
 52 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 2, S. Stephen's (Dutch Chui-ch) 
 
 14 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 3, South African Mission 
 
 25 
 
 Do. 
 
 Sub-do. 
 
 No. 3, Lutheran Mission, Buitengracht Street . . 
 
 122 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 4, School of Industry, New Street . . 
 
 172 
 
 Do. 
 
 Sub-do. 
 
 No. 4, S. Michael's (English Church), Keerom St. 
 
 98 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 5, S. George's Orphanage Mission . . 
 
 30 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 6, Congregational Church Mission, BanackSt. 
 
 22 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 7, Dutch Church, Brae Street 
 
 80 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 9, Wesleyan Mission, Sydney Street . . 
 
 141 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 10, S. Johu'.s English Church, Rogge Bay . . 
 
 87 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 11, Boys' Trinity, Harrington Street . . 
 
 50 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 13, Girls' do. do 
 
 199 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 12, S. Mark's (English Church) 
 
 172 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 13, Dutch Church, Hanover Street .. .. 
 
 182 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 14, (English Church) S. Philip's 
 
 234 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 15, S. Aloysius' (Roman Catholic) , . 
 
 404 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 15, Girls', S. Bridget's (Roman Catholic) .. 
 
 324 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 16, (English Church) S. Raul's 
 
 23 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 17, (Roman Catholic) Sir Dowry Road 
 
 163 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 18, do. Somerset Road 
 
 271 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 1 9, Ebonezor Mission, Rose Street . . 
 
 63 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 20, Dutch Church, Rogge Bay 
 
 12 
 
 
 Do. 
 
 do. 
 
 No. 21, Moravian Mission, Frore Street . . 
 
 5 
 
 
 Deaf and Dumb Institution (additionaJ) 
 
 Total 
 
 10 
 
 
 2,955 
 
 
 
 

 
 APPENDIX D. — EDTTCATION COMMISSION. 215 
 
 APPENDIX D. 
 
 ParticTilars relating to Mission Schools aided by Grants from the Education 
 Department and worked by Religious Denominations, based on Schools actually in 
 existence during the year 1890 : — 
 
 MISSION SCHOOLS. 
 1. Total amount received by each Denomination in aid of its Mission Schools ; 
 
 English Church 
 Wesleyan Society 
 Dutch Reformed Church 
 Independent or Congregational . . 
 Moravian Society 
 Berlin Society 
 
 Roman Catholic Church 
 
 Free Church (Scotch) . . 
 
 Rhenish Society 
 
 Lutheran Church 
 
 French Protestant 
 
 United Presbyterian . . 
 
 Miscellaneous 
 
 2. Amount raised by each Religious Body in Fees, Contributions, &c :— 
 
 £ B. d. 
 
 English Church . . . • • • ^.^98 2 3 
 
 Wesleyan Society . . • . • • 2,550 1 1 
 
 Dutch Reformed Church . . . . 4,430 13 8 
 
 Independent or Congregatiomal . . .. 1,207 16 10 
 
 Moravian Society . . • ■ • • 600 9 1 
 
 Berlin Society . . • • • • 1.090 4 6 
 
 Roman Catholic Church . . . • 4,388 17 7 
 
 Free Church (Scotch) . . . . • • 566 16 1 
 
 Rhenish Society . . • • • • 655 15 11 
 
 Lutheran Church . . • • • • 144 10 
 
 French Protestant . . . . • • 7 18 3 
 
 United Presbyterian . . . . . • 31 17 6 
 Miscellaneous . . • • 
 
 3. Total luiniber of Children enrnlli'.l. 51,845. 
 
 4. Average daily attendance, 2(3,042. 
 
 £ 8. 
 
 d. 
 
 5,131 
 
 
 
 3,942 19 
 
 o 
 
 2,225 
 
 
 
 1,714 10 
 
 
 
 990 
 
 
 
 723 15 
 
 
 
 1,655 
 
 
 
 884 
 
 
 
 791 5 
 
 
 
 120 
 
 
 
 70 10 
 
 
 
 65 
 
 
 
 343 
 
 
 
 257 3 9
 
 210 APPENDIX E. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. / 
 
 APPENDIX E. , 
 
 Cape Government Railways. 
 
 Ill' I, I li-' ' • 
 
 Circular No. 523.] 
 
 Office of the General Manager of Eailways, 
 . . .. ^ , Cape Town, 2nd May, 1890. 
 
 STATION SCHOOLS. 
 
 Sl»^- ■. .!■ •■ . , , , J 
 
 I have been ondoavouring for some years to procui'e greater facilities for the education 
 of the children of railway ciuployes who reside at some distance from schools, and who 
 cannot afford to send their children to hoarding: schools. I have been in frequent com- 
 luuuicatinu with the Superintendent-General of Education on the subject, and !~lir Langham 
 Dale has always been ready to grant every facilitj- within his power. He has now laid 
 down the following conditions on which aid will, be granted to Station Schools on the 
 Eailway, viz. : — 
 
 REGULATIONS FOR STATION SCMOOI^S. 
 ?>rd Class- [Loicer Orade). 
 
 The Education Department will grant Thirtj' Pounds (£30) per annum in aid of the 
 Teacher's salary, and aid in outfit of books, &c., on the following conditions : — 
 
 1 . A daily attendance of at least ten scholars. 
 
 2. A local Committee of three Managers to guarantee free board and lodging for tho 
 
 Teacher, and a local cash payment of Ten Pounds (£10) jwr annum. 
 
 3. ^Managers to bo selected with the consont of the Pailway Department. 
 •1. Managers and Teachers to be approved by the Education Department. 
 
 5. Kailway Department to provide accommodation and furniture for school. 
 
 6. School Foes to be fixedby agreement between tho Education Department and ^Nfanagers. 
 
 7. School Fees to be applied to the cash payment of Ton Pounds (£10) per annum to 
 
 Teacher, purchase of books, &c., and petty exjienses of managomen,t. , 
 
 I have now to request that any officers or employes who may be willing to form them- 
 selves into a Committee, and to conform to tho foregoing conditions, will be good enough 
 to conault with each other and, after selecting a Committee, send in tho names of the juo- 
 posed members, stating where they wish the school to be established, whether a building 
 already exists at the proposed site, or whether one will have to be provided, and generally 
 whether they are prepared to give the formal guarantee required by the Education Depaitmoiit. 
 
 It is not proposed that this plan should interfere with any of the existing Railway 
 Schools. 
 
 It is difficult to suggest definite places where schools should, be started, as the number 
 of children in anj' particular neighbourhood is not known ; but it is suggested that tho 
 Permanent Way Inspectors should inform the gangers of the proposals now made, so that 
 those interested may confer with each other on the subject. It would bo well to arrange 
 sites that would be suitaljle for the conveyance of children b}' rail. 
 
 I shall be glad to have an early reply, as it may be necessary to obtain Parliamentary 
 sanctiim for tho necessary expenditure. 
 
 I have the honour to be, 
 
 Sir, 
 
 Your obedient Servant, 
 
 C. B. ELLIOTT, 
 
 General Manager. 
 
 To all Heads of Departments, 
 
 and 10 the Pailwaj- Staff generally.
 
 APPENBIX F. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. 217 
 
 APPENDIX F. 
 
 Normal College, Cape Town, 
 
 24th January, 1891. 
 The Eegistrar of the University 
 
 of the Cape of Good Hope. 
 Sir, 
 
 I am directed by the Committee of the South African Teachers' Association to 
 inform you that the recommendations forwarded by the Synod of the Dutch Reformed 
 Church, contained iu yours of the 1st December ult., have been carefully considered, 
 and the following resolutions unanimously adopted : 
 
 The Committee begs to inform the Council that at the late Conference of Teachers, 
 held at Port Elizabeth in July last, the subject of Dutch was discussed, and the follow- 
 ing resolution was passed — " That this Conference fully recognises the claim which the 
 Dutch-speaking part of the community has, when it demands that the teaching of Dutch 
 should receive prominence in the schools of the country ; and this Conference is of 
 opinion that sixch prominence is being given to the study of the Dutch language in 
 schools where the demand is made." 
 
 At the same time, a proposal that Dutch should be one of the subjects for the 
 School Elementary examination was negatived. 
 
 This Committee, however, is of opinion, that if a general desire exists for an 
 Examination in Dutch at that stage, the Dutch language might be added to the subjects 
 prescribed for the School Elementary examination ; in such a manner, however, that 
 no candidate shall be compelled to take that language, and that candidates takiiig it 
 shall be classified in a separate list. 
 
 With regard to proposal {b) the Committee understands that the values assigned to 
 the Dutch and English papers in the School Higher examination are equal ; to the 
 second clause, " and that these values should exceed those assigned to other languages," 
 the Committee does not agree. 
 
 In regard to proposal {<■) the Committee would recommend that in the Matriculation 
 examination the modern language papers (English, Dutch, French, Gennan, Kafir, 
 and Sesuto) should have equal values. 
 
 The Committee agrees to proposals (i/) and (c). 
 
 I have the honour to be. 
 Sir, 
 Your obedient Servant, 
 
 GEORGE A. MILNE, 
 
 Hon. Sec. S.A.T.A. 
 
 The following are the Resolutions of the Spiod of the Dutch Eefonued Church : — 
 
 (i-i). Ihit the Dutch Language shovdd be added to the subjects now prescribed 
 for tlie School Elementary examination ; in such manner however that 
 uo cantlidate shall be compelled to take that subject, but that any 
 candidate taking it shall thereby be entitled to obtain higlier marks. 
 
 (//). That in the School Higher examination equal values should be assigned 
 to the Dutch and English papcre ; and that these values should exceed 
 those assigned to other languages. 
 
 {(■). That ill the Matriculation examination the Dutch and English papers 
 shoidd have equal values, instead of the present arrangement — b}- 
 which the same values are assigned to the Dutch, French and Gennan 
 papers, and to each of these a lower value than to the English paper. 
 
 ((/). That in the School Elemontarv examination, candidates should have the 
 opportunity of being examined in Dutch in those subjects which they 
 have learned through the medium of the Dutch language. 
 
 (e). That in all examinations questions on the Dutch language shoidd be put 
 in Dutch, leaving it to the option of the candidate to answer in 
 English.
 
 218 APPENDIX 0. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. 
 
 The foUowiug are the Eesolutions passed by the Taal Congress, hold in Cape Town 
 on the 31st Ootober and 1st November, 1890 : — 
 
 1. («). This Congress is of opinion that the time has arrived, especially with 
 
 a view 1o those who prepare for the Civil Service examination, that 
 the Dutch language should be added as a oonipulsory subject to the 
 Elementary Sc-liool examination ; but if, (jwiiig to the present 
 aiTangement of oiu: schools, insiirmouutable ililficulties should present 
 themselves, the marks shall be dealt with as those given for Greek at 
 tlio Matricidiition exaraiuatiou, that is to say, that, although Dutch 
 at the said examination bo not made compulsory, the candidate wlio 
 shall not submit to an examination in Dutch exposes himself to the 
 risk of seeing liis name so much the lower on the list of passed 
 candidates, 
 (i.) The examination in Dutch shall include an easy dictation, a simple 
 piece for translation fi-om Dutch into English, and rice remt ; some 
 questions on ordinary declensions and omjugations. 
 
 2. This Congress is of opinion that in order to arouse more patriotism in the 
 
 rising generation in all schools, the History and Geography of South 
 Afi-ica, as well us general geograjihy, shall be taught either in Dutch 
 or in English, and that the University Council be requested to 
 examine in these subjects in both languages. 
 •3. This Congress is of opinion that in the Matriculation examination Dutch 
 should not be placed on the same footing %vith foreign languages, but 
 that it should receive an equal number of marks with the principal 
 subjects, provided, however, that the examination in Dutch shall be 
 somewhat more thorough than it has hitherto been. 
 
 4. This Congress is of opinion that in all the lower schools, elementary 
 
 instruction should be given in and by means of the language of the 
 majority of the local population, to which instruction in the second 
 language may soon be added. Where it is deemed advisable, in 
 farpiers' schools, to give instruction only in and by means of Dutch, 
 these schools should have tlie same claim to Government aid as the 
 schools in which English is exclusively taught. 
 
 5. This Congress is of opinion that the teaching, in this Colony, of the 
 
 history of the country and the people, as also of humanity in general, 
 is inadequate, and instructs the " Hoofdbestuur " to devise a plan for 
 remedying this evil as soon as possible, and lay such before the Depart- 
 ment of Education and the University Council. 
 
 6. This Congress is of opinion that in all the examinations, the papers on 
 
 Dutch should be written and answered in that language. 
 
 APPENDIX G. 
 
 The following Circular Letter was addresseil to the Chairmen of the Boards of Managers 
 of all Fii-st, Second, and Third Class Undenominational Public Schools throughout 
 the Colony. 
 
 Cape Town, 
 
 March ;3rd, 1891. 
 
 SiK, 
 
 I have the honour, by direction of the President of the Education Commis- 
 sion, to request that you would be good enough, at the earliest possible date, to fumisli 
 the following information with reference to the school under the management of your 
 Board : — 
 
 A. (1.) Who are the guarantors of the school under your management, how are 
 the managers chosen, and of what other bodies, if any, are members 
 wholly or partly, cx-officio managers of the school ? 
 (2.) On what occasions, if any, have deficiencies arisen in the finances of the 
 school under your management, and how have any such deficiencies 
 been made good ?
 
 APPENDIX a. — EDUCATION COMMISSION. 21D 
 
 Ji. In the case of property acquired for the purposes of the school : 
 
 (1.) "Who are the legal holders ? 
 
 (2.) What provision is made for the tenure of the property ? 
 
 (J3.) On Avhat conditions is the property allowed to be used for school purposes 
 by managers who are not the legal holders l-* Are the holders prepared 
 to allow this property to be vested in a Board permanently Y if so, 
 state views as to the constitution of such Board. 
 
 (I.) What amount, it any, has from time to time, or at any time, been con- 
 tributed by fxovernnient for the erection, purchase, or repairs of the 
 buildings used for the school under your management, and subject to 
 what conditions have such contributions been made ? 
 
 (5.) What money burdens are on the property, how have they arisen, what 
 amount is annually payable as interest or sinking fund, and from 
 what fund it is paid ? 
 
 C. In the case of property rented for school purposes : 
 (1.) What is the amount of rent paid ? 
 (2.) By whom is it paid ? 
 (3.) Out of what fund is it paid ? 
 
 I am. Sir, 
 
 Your obedient Servant, 
 W. S. FLETCHER, 
 
 Secretary. 
 
 [G. 9— '91.] vr
 
 220 
 
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 Form L9-20m-7,'61 C(;i437sl)441 
 
 THE LIBRAltY 
 UffVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA
 
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 A5 Hope. Education 
 
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