HP- 
 
 REPORT 
 
 FROM THE 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS, 
 
 ON THE 
 
 PRESENT STATE OF DISCIPLINE IN GAOLS 
 AND HOUSES OF COREECTION; 
 
 TOOETHEK WITH THE 
 
 PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE. 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 
 
 AND APPENDIX. 
 
 1863. 
 
 (37.)
 
 Ex Libris 
 K. OGDEN 
 
 "\ 'f.\ 
 ll./ii 
 
 \ 
 
 V
 
 t"
 
 \ 
 
 u
 
 REPORT 
 
 FROM THE 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS, 
 
 ON THE 
 
 PRESENT STATE OF DISCIPLINE IN GAOLS 
 AND HOUSES OF CORRECTION; 
 
 TOGETHER WITH THE 
 
 PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE, 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 
 
 AND APPENDIX. 
 
 Session 1863, 
 
 Ordered to be printed 7th July 1863. 
 
 (37.)
 
 REPORT p. iii 
 
 PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE - - - - p. xviii 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE P- 1 
 
 APPENDIX p. 475 
 
 .JJ O .iO t/0_ 
 
 "1-1^ bL^ -It:.....--. --......- ■-- ^
 
 L i" ] 
 
 REPORT. 
 
 THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to consider and report on the 
 present State of Discipline in Gaols and Houses of Correction, have 
 agreed to the following REPORT : 
 
 ORDERED TO REPORT, 
 
 On a subject so large in extent as that referred to them, the Committee have 
 obviously been unable to carry their inquiries into the particular management 
 and details of all or even of the majority of county and borough prisons. Enquiry 
 into the Irish and Scotch prisons is not included in the Order of the House ; and 
 the Welsh Gaols, from their smaller size, and as falling naturally under the rules 
 and principles of penal discipline which are applicable to the English prisons, have 
 appeared to demand somewhat less investigation than those in England. With 
 regard to the English Gaols and Houses of Correction, they have endeavoured, as 
 far as lay in their |)ower, to summon for examination witnesses who, from official 
 position or from known differences of personal opinion, might in some sense 
 be said to represent the various schools of thought and practice which the 
 administration of our prisons has developed. 
 
 Amongst so many persons speaking on so many and such various systems 
 of prison management, some conflict of evidence is naturally to be found, but 
 that disagreement is one rather of opinion than of fact, and it turns mainly 
 upon points of secondary importance. The Committee have been greatly guided 
 towards their general conclusions by the remarkable concurrence on the larger 
 questions of many of the ablest and most experienced witnesses whom they have 
 examined. 
 
 I. They have, in the first place, to remark that many and wide differences, as 
 regards construction, labour, diet and general disciphne, exist in the various 
 Gaols and Houses of Correction in England and Wales, leading to an inequality, 
 uncertainty and inefficiency of punishment, productive of the most prejudicial 
 I'esults. In some gaols, such as Wakefield, the cells are constructed on the 
 separute system; in many, as at Leicester and Stafford, a portion only of the 
 cells are certified, though all prisoners are separated ; and in others, such as 
 Maid'^tone and Coldbath-fields, the associated system still prevails extensively. 
 
 On reference to a Return Ordered by the House of Commons, 18 April 1856, 
 it appears that the separate system was not at that time established in the 
 Borough Gaols of Bodmin, Falraouth, Saltash, Exeter, Barnstaple, Colchester, 
 Ilford, Gloucester, Deal, Dover, Westminster, Oxford, Beccles, Hastings, and 
 Rye, in the southern district ; nor in those of Leicester, Kirton-in-Lindsey, 
 Louth, Spilsby, Norwich, King's Lynn, Nottingham, Wenlock, Litchfield, Wnv- 
 wick, Coventry, Appleby, Kendal, York Castle, and the City Gaol, in the northern 
 disti'ict. The Queen's Bench in Surrey, and the countv prisons of Coldl)ath- 
 fields, Monmouth, and Rutland are also described as wanting in the accommo- 
 dation of separate cells (together with the Liberty Prison of St. Alban's). Since 
 then the gaols at Saltash, Deal, Beccles, Hastings Coventry and Wenlock 
 have been closed, whilst many have been wholly or partially fitted up with sepa- 
 arate cells. Amongst these are the gaols of Bodmin, Exeter, Gloucester, Oxford, 
 Nottingham, Leicester and Warwick, together with the \\ estminster House of 
 Correction. 
 
 The differences with regard to labour are still more marked. In some gaols Appendix N. 
 the treadwheel is the chief and occasionally the only means of giving labour. 
 At Northallerton, Warwick, Rutland, Walsingham, Spilsby, Canterbury, and 
 Huntingdon, it is said to be the sole punishment in force ; in others, the cellular 
 rrank forms the principal implement of punishment, but it is sometimes reserved 
 for second and third offences, refractory paupers and assaults, and sometimes it 
 
 (37.) a 2 is, 
 
 (/
 
 IV REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 is, tis at Southwell, appropriated to the punishment of vagrants alone ; in others 
 the crank, v\hich is worked by one continuous shaft, and which gives employ- 
 ment to several prisoners at the same time, is in force •, in some cases picking 
 oakum or stone-breaking, in others industrial occupations [irevail; in one prison 
 " self-instruction" is said to be the main element of discipline, and labour is not 
 
 2fii8. only supposed to be productive of no good result, but every h<iur devoted to it is 
 
 2609. treated as a relaxation or relief from the seclusion of the cell. Nor are these 
 
 various forms of tniployment in any fixed proportion to each other or to the 
 period of imprisonment. In Leicester the labour of the crank is continued during 
 the whole of the prisoner's sentence, whilst at Stafford and at Fetworth it is 
 enforced dining the earlier stages of confinement. The construction too both of 
 the treadwheel and crank appears to vary in the different gaols. In Wands- 
 
 1025. worth prison, according to the evidence of one of the witnesses, the pressure 
 
 put upon the axis of the crank is graduated by defined weights, and the amount 
 of resistance left to !)e determined by the surgeon : on the other hand, in the 
 older form of crank, as at the New Bailey, Salford, the pressure is regulated by 
 a simple turn of the screw, at the option of the gaoler. It may, according to 
 this witness, be estimated at 7 or 10 lbs. ; but the efl^ect is very difterent, for 
 " the rffect of the nominal 7 lbs. ciank at the New Bailey at Salford, in com- 
 " parison with the effect of the Wandsworth crank of 7 lbs., is as 1"6 to 1 ; and 
 " the eri'ect of the so called 9 lbs. crank at the New Bailey, as compared with 
 " the 12 lbs crank at Wandsworth, is as 1 i to 1. Therefore there is very great 
 " difference with regard to the effect of the nominal value, rnd since the nominal 
 " value is determined by the simple turn of a screw, which can never be gra- 
 " (luated nicely, it is quite clear that the pressure at the New Bailey must vary 
 " with each prisoner every day." 
 
 Again, the discrepancies of diet, both as regards amount and quality, and the 
 
 different periods at which the several changes take place, are equady remarkable. 
 
 A s ale of diet was issued by the Home Office in 1843 for the consideration 
 
 of the local authorities. That scale has been wholly adopted by some gaols, and 
 
 818. partially by others. Thus it is stated that in CardiflT, till recently, no meat was 
 
 allowed, whilst in (^oldbath fields the prisoner enjoys six ounces of cooked meat 
 on four, and four ounces on three days of the week : and again whilst the higher 
 scale of food begins in Cardifl" after 14 days' confinement, it commences in 
 Coldbath-fields after four days only. It would seem from the evidence of Dr. Guy, 
 that the higher clas-es of diet, as sanctioned by the Home Ofl[ice in 1843 were 
 
 3809. framed upon the prison diet of Millbank —Class V. corresponding closely with it. 
 
 38. G. No less than 42 county and borough prisons are said by him to have adopted 
 
 the Home Office recommendations in regard to the diet of this Class; but the 
 Millbank dittary exceeds that of Peutonville by two nuiices of bread per day; 
 an excess which , in his opinion, can be justified only by the peculiar local con- 
 ditior. of that prison in a sanitary point of \iew. It is, however, on this excep- 
 tional standard, th t the Home Ollice recommendations for Class V. appear to be 
 based. 
 
 It is difficult to trace the existence of any fixed pi inciple in the original 
 construction of the official dietaries, and such a principle would appear to be 
 equally wanting in those prisons which have not adopted the Home Office scale. 
 Dr. Guy states, that on an analysis of the dietaries in use by county and borough 
 piisons which have not adopted the Government recommendations, the element 
 ol biead is found to vary from a minimum of 30 ounces per week, to a maximum 
 of 224 ounces, that of potatoes, from 24 ounces to 1 12 ounces, and that of meat, 
 from thiough 6, 8, 12, 18 to 25 ounces; whilst taking the total solid elements 
 of bread, potatoes, and meat, differences are exhibited, varying from a minimum 
 3817. 3819. of 100 ounces, to a maximum of 340 ounces during the week. 
 
 II, The Committee are of opinion that it is desirable to establish without 
 delay a system approaching as nearly as may be practicable to an uniformity 
 of labour, diet and treatment; and, 
 
 III. That whilst industrial occupation should in certain stages form a part of 
 prison discipline, the more strictly penal element of that discipline is the chief 
 means of exercising a deterrent influence, and therefore ought not to h^ weak- 
 ened, as it has been in some gaols, still less to be entirely withdrawn. 
 
 IV. !a
 
 ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. V 
 
 IV. In all questions of prison discipline, it appears to the Committee that Separation, 
 the principle of separation, or association, stands first for consideration. Next 
 in importance is the question of solitary confinement. 
 
 Association, or a mixed S}stem of association and separation prevails, as has 
 already been shown, in many gaols. Such anomalies however, are, in the 
 opinion of the Committee, very objectionable. They should be removed at the 
 earliest practicable time ; and their present existence can only be justified by the 
 difficulties of reconstruction, and tiie natural reluctance of the local authorities 
 to incur a heavy expenditure. The Committee entertain a very decided opinion 
 on this head, and having reference to the course of legislation now extending 
 over many years, and the agreement in opinion and practice of the highest 
 authorities, they consider that the system generally known as the separate 
 system, must now be accepted ;is the foundation of prison discipline, ami that 
 its rigid maintenance is a vital principle to the efficiency of county and boi'ough 
 gaols. 
 
 The Committee concur entirely in the opinion expressed by the. Commissioners 
 of Pentonville, vfho in their Fifth Report, dated 5 March 1847, give the following 
 decisive testimony in its favour : — 
 
 " We concluded our Third Report, by strongly urging; the advantage of the separation of 
 " one prisoner from anotlier, as the basis and great leading feature of all prison discipline. 
 
 " On reviewing this opinion, and taking advantage of further exjierience, we feel war- 
 " ranted in expressing our firm conviction that the moral results of the discipline have bef n 
 " most encouraging, and attended with a success which we believe is without parallel in the 
 " history of prison discipline." 
 
 And in conclusion they state as their deliberate opinion, that 
 
 " The separation of one prisoner from another is the only sound basis on which a refor- 
 " matory discipline can be established with any reasonable hope of success." 
 
 In order to avoid all ambiguity on so important a branch of this inquiry, it :s 
 to be observed that separation has a two-fold aspect in which it may be consi- 
 dered : first, that seclusion which results from the mechanical construction of 
 the prison and its cellular arrangement; secondly, that separation of the prisoner 
 frotn his fellows which is dependent upon system and discipline, as apart fronti 
 the material separation of the cells. 
 
 (a) Separation by Construction. 
 
 1. The Committee have observed from the evidence submitted to them, that 
 in many of the best gaols a large proportion of the cells are below the precise 
 standard of size, and consequently uncertified by the inspector. Such cells, how- 
 ever, appear to be used under certain conditions, without prejudice to the 
 administration of the prison or the health of the prisoners. 
 
 Whilst for the future the fullest development is given to the separate system, 
 it will be for the Secretary of State to consider how far the practical object in 
 view may not be met, and the ditficulties arising out of the exjiense of a recon-, 
 struction of many prisons obviated by allowing a certain proportion of cells below 
 the average standard to be ceitified and sanctioned, it being understood that the 
 occupants of those cells shall consist of prisoners undergoing short sentences, who 
 shall be chiefiy employed during the day upon hai^d labour outside their cells.* 
 
 2. The Con)mittee recommend that legislative measures be taken as speedily 
 as possible to render the adoption of separation obligatory upon all gaols and 
 houses of correction in England and Wales, and that the payment of the propor- 
 tion of the charge, now issued from the public revenues in aid of the county 
 and borough prisons, be made contingent in each case on the adoption of 
 the separate S3'stem. 
 
 In 18ol Sir J. Jebb, in his Report on Prison Discipline and Management, proposed to reduce the 
 dimensions of prison cells from 13 feet long by 7 feet wide — rhe standard size at Pentonville— to 9 
 foot long by 6 feet wide. "There ia no objection," the report proceeds to state, "to the use of 
 such eells for short periods varying from three to six months, if the ventilation be sufficient. Where 
 looms or other cumbrous machinery .nre introduced, a larger space is necessarily required." See also, 
 Sti- W. Crofton's suggestion for the provisiona-l partition of associated prisoners in gaols of aa old and 
 imperfect construction, 3237-44. 
 
 (37.) a 3 
 
 {
 
 Vl REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 (b) Separation by System. 
 
 3. It is clear that this kind of separation must depend upon the judgment and 
 capacity of those who are locally responsible for the administration of the prison. 
 The newest and most elaborate form of construction is an insufHcient safeguard 
 if there is any relaxation of the necessary precautions by the local authorities, 
 whilst an old and defective gaol may in some degree, by care and proper arrange- 
 ment, be adapted to the requirements of our present system.* Looking, however, 
 to the ordinary arrangements which exist in most gaols, there are so many inter- 
 ruptions to the regularity of prison discipline, instruction is given at such 
 various times, and the communications which pass between prisoners and other 
 persons are so frequent, that separation, though it exists nominally in many, is 
 really to be found in few gaols ; but where it does exist, it exercises both a 
 reformatory and a deterrent effect. Under these circumstances, the Committee 
 are of opinion tiiat the principle of separation should be made to pervade the 
 entire system of the prison, nnd no adequate reason has been assigned for the 
 relaxation of the rule in school, in chapel, and at exercise. It is, however, to be 
 imderstood that this conclusion is not intended to limit the cellular and other 
 religious instruction which the chaplain may think ht to administer to any 
 prisoner. 
 
 4. The iustice of this view is generally admitted, except as regards the associa- 
 tion of prisoners in chapel. Upon this point the evidence is conflicting. 
 
 The main objections to the use of separate compartments in chapel appear to 
 resolve themselves into tNvo ; one moral, the other mechanical. The first is 
 grounded u|)ou the opinion that a gaol chapel ought to he as much as possible 
 like a parish churcli ; the second arises from the belief that the compartments, 
 from the mode of their construction, tend to facilitate rather than impede com- 
 munication between the prisoners, and to induce them to deface the panels of the 
 stalls by indecent writings or drawings. Neither of these objections seems to 
 the Committee to be valid. With regard to the first, they conceive that the 
 benefits which may be derived from giving a more devotional character to the 
 chapel cannot outweigh the advantages of preventing the communication of pri- 
 soners with each other, and of rendering difficult their recognition by their fellow- 
 prisoners on their discharge. With regard to the second objection, the Committee 
 think that by adopting arrangements of the same nature as those which are in 
 force in Bristol Gaol, the separation of the prisoners may be effected without 
 difficulty. For these reasons the Committee recommend that the separate system 
 should be carried out in the chapel as well as in every other part of the prison. 
 
 Solitary- Confine- V. In regard to solitary confinement, the Committee observe that at the present 
 "'«°t- time it scarcely forms any part of the ordinary treatment of criminals, except as 
 
 a punishment for prison offences, for which purpose it is found to be very 
 effective. 
 
 The Committee are of opinion that it would be possible to substitute, in 
 many cases, the shorter term of three and seven days' solitary confinement on 
 bread and water for the present sentences, ranging from seven to 21 days with 
 hard labour. 
 
 By such change in sentences passed by the court, the advantages of a more 
 efficient discipline and economy in the amount of accommodation required would 
 be secured. 
 
 The principle of sentencing offenders to solitary confinement is sanctioned by 
 the 43d Clause of the Mutiny Act. and the 24 & 25 Vict. c. 100, s. 70. 
 
 VI. 1. There 
 
 * This appears actually to be done in the city gaol of Bristol. See Mr. Gardnnr's rvidence. 
 Sir .J. .lebb has added his testimony to the coni|jlete success, so far as separation is conccrnod, which 
 is obtained by the system that is there pursued. " I know of one prison," lie says, " which is on the 
 old construction (I speak now of the prison at Bristol), where a most effective discipline is well kept up 
 by the governor, with very inadtquate means as regards construction : bo has smiill cells, which are 
 only fit for sleeping in, and cannot be certified fo separate confinement; but by dividins: his tread- 
 wheel into close compartments, and letting out the prisoners from their cells at certain distances from 
 each other, and shutting them up in the compartments of the treadwheel, and marching them back 
 again to their cells in the same way, no two prisoners can ever see each other, and you really obtain 
 the advantages of separate confinement without the expense which is entailed by the construction of 
 ;i prison." [leoj.]
 
 ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. vii 
 
 VI. 1. There can be little doubt that a large proportion of the discrepancies Labour, 
 which exist in the discipline administered in different prisons is due to the dif- 
 ferent construction placed by the local authorities upon the sentence of hard 
 labour ordered by the Court. Committees of both Houses have repeatedly 
 recommended, and various statutes have distinctly required, the infliction of 
 hard labour ; but it is clear from the evidence that there is the widest possible 
 difference in the opinions held as to what constitutes hard labour. The Com- 
 mittee believe that, with the best intentions on the part of the local authorities, 
 there is in many gaols a great and unfortunate misapprehension on this head, 
 and that until some more precise definition of hard labour is assigned, the grave 
 public inconvenience and injustice which now arise from the inequalities of 
 penal discipline in neighbouring counties or even in parts of the same county, 
 must continue in full force. The first step towards a better and more uniform 
 system throughout the country, would, in the opinion of the Committee, be found 
 in an authoritative definition, by Act of Parliament, of the term of hard labour. 
 Nor does there seem to be in this any practical difficulty. Of the various forms 
 which are in force in the several prisons, the treadwheel, crank and shot-drill 
 alone appear to the Committee properly to merit this designation of hard labour. 
 Of these, the treadwheel aud the crank form the principal elements of penal dis- 
 cipline, and might be safely prescribed as such in any future Act of Parliament. 
 But whenever the local authorities mav tliink it necessary to supplement the 
 treadwheel or crank by further hard labour, recourse may satisfactorily be had 
 to shot-drill, and this form of hard labour may be combined with the industrial 
 employment in the later stages of imprisonment. Industrial occupation, though 
 it may vary in amount and character, is so much less penal, irksome, and 
 fatiguing, that it can only be classed under the head of light labour. The picking 
 of oakum must he regarded as an intermediate form of work ; but under no cir- 
 cumstances, and to no class of prisoners, can iudustrial occupation be made an 
 equivalent for a corresponding amount of hard labour as admmistered by means 
 of the wheel, the crank, or the shot-drill. 
 
 2. It has been alleged in the course of the evidence, that the use of the tread- 
 wheel and crank degrades, irritates, and demoralises the prisoner; but the Com- 
 mittee, after full consideration, see no reason for entertaining this opinion, and, 
 under certain conditions, they highly approve of the use of both these instruments 
 of prison discipline. Productive labour, indeed, holds out to the local authorities 
 the hope of some profit, and is somewhat less irksome to the prisoner : it is 
 therefore frequently urged, that the crank and wheel, if used at all, should be 
 confined to the pumping of water, or the grinding of corn, or some other remu- 
 nerative work. The Committee cannot subscribe to this view. If the local 
 authorities can make use of the crank or treadwheel for productive work, the 
 Committee see no objection to such an arrangement, but they think it essential 
 that every prisoner sentenced to hard labour should be employed upon the 
 crank or treadwheel for a minimum period, and that in no case should the 
 regular enforcement of this system be relinquished or impaired for the sake of 
 making the labour remunerative. 
 
 3. In considering the effect of any particular discipline, the Committee have 
 had to look, not only to the nature and the amount of the hard labour to be 
 required of every prisoner in order to secure a certain uniformity, but they have 
 thought it their duty to take into consideration the further difficulties involved 
 in the different length of sentences. The labour which is fitting and salutary for 
 a prisoner undergoing a sentence of six, nine, or twelve months, may not be so 
 appropriate physically or morally, if applied during the last year of confinement. 
 It appears difficult to lay down any precise rule for the more advanced stages of 
 imprisonment. There is much disagreement, both of opinion and practice, on this 
 point, and it is for the local authorities to determine how far the proportion of 
 hard labour which the Committee are now prepared to recommend for the earlier 
 stages of imprisonment, may be carried on, supplemented, relaxed, or modified 
 by some other form of employment. As regards the short sentences or the earlier 
 stages of imprisonment, the Committee believe that they are adopting a safe and 
 a moderate standard when they recommend that every prisoner sentenced to 
 hard labour shall, unless exempted by medical authority on grounds of health, 
 be employed at the treadwheel or crank not less than eight hours per day the 
 first three, and not less than six hours per day during the next three months of 
 
 (37.) a4 ■ the
 
 via REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 the first year of imprisonment. They further recommend, that all Gaols andHouses 
 of Correction sliali, as a condition to their receipt of the Treasury allowance, both 
 be provided with a sufficient supply of hard labour machinery for the average 
 number of male prisoners sentenced to, and medically tit for, hard labour, and be, 
 annually certified to the Secretary of State as giving the full daily minimum 
 work on treadwheel or crank, as described above. 
 
 4. It is however essential, that the tread wheels, as far as possible, be of an 
 uniform pattern and construction, divided by proper partitions, with machinery 
 yielding the same number of revolutions in a given time, and with steps of an 
 equal height; that the cranks be also of an uniform construction, giving- a fixed 
 pressure, and the screw now regulating that pressure be omitted. Where, 
 however, any gaol is already furnished with a treadwheel, which can be certified 
 by the inspector as effective, it would be desirable that the Secretary of State 
 should sanction their provisional use, subject, however, to the condition that the 
 pressure of the cranks be adjusted as nearly as possible to the fixed pressure. 
 It is desirable that a register should be attuched to the treadwheel and the 
 ordinary crank, and that wherever the cellular crank is used, an index to record 
 the number of revolutions effected should be fixed within sight of the prisoner. 
 
 5. It will be seen that under the changes here proposed, a minimum of hard 
 labour is provided during the first six months of a prisoner's confinement. The 
 Committee do not think it necessary to extend their recommendations into further 
 detail, and they belie. e it will be best left to the local authorities of any gaol, in 
 which there are the means of giving industrial occupation, to determine whether, 
 and to what extt-nt, such employment should be a substitute for hard labour 
 during the remainder of the imprisonment ; but wherever such employment is 
 given, not less than nine hours per day should be allotted to it. 
 
 6. These recommendations, indeed, fall very far short of giving practical effect 
 to the full powers of punishment sanctioned by the 4 Geo. 4, c. 64, s. 10; 
 and if the minimum scale of hard labour indicated in the a!)0ve paragraphs be 
 adopted, there will be in the case of prisoners undergoing the shorter periods 
 or the earlier stages of confinement, a considerable portion of the dayto be disposed 
 of. It will be under such circumstances, as already explained, competent for 
 the local authorities, either to devote that time to industrial occupation where 
 they have the means of so doing, or to prolong the hard labour at the crank 
 and treadwheel, if upon consideration this should be found expedient; but there 
 will be cases where industrial employment cannot be given, and where it is de- 
 sirable to make some variation in the labour of the wheel and crank. In such 
 cases, it seems to the Committee that recourse might well be had to shot-drill. 
 The experience of the Naval Prisons clearly shows that a simple form of shot-drill 
 is perfectly applicable to other than military offenders, and if the shot be slightly 
 raised from the ground, this punishment is free fi-om all possible objection in a 
 physical point of view. They recommend it on the grounds of efficiency, simplicity 
 and economy as a form of disciplinary correction in aid of, and supplementary 
 to, the hard labour of the wheel and crank. 
 
 dustrial employ- VII. The Committee have had their attention strongly directed by many 
 '•'"'• witnesses, on the ground both of profit and of individual reformation, to various 
 
 modes of industrial emploj'ment which are provided in different gaols with more 
 or less success. The Committee have not pursued their inquiry far enough to 
 determine, with any certainty, what proportion the work done bears to its average 
 cost. They are inclined to doubt whether under the usual circumstances of 
 any gaol the return from such labour can be said to be very remunerative; but 
 at all events they are of opinion, that a profitable return from industrial employ- 
 ment ought not to be made the test of prison efficiency. It is not applicable to all 
 classes of prisoners, or to all individuals amongst them. Where even it is most 
 extensively in operation, it does not appear to be the practice to estimate the 
 labour done by task or piece-work, and by the admission of many witnesses 
 it would be dillicult to do so. The extent and value of that moral influence, 
 which industrial employment exercises upon the mind of tlie prisoner, is a matter 
 which is much debated, but which is obviously not susceptible of direct proof. 
 The truth probably lies between the extreme views of those who lay great stress 
 1128. upon, and those who altogether deny the existence of such an influence. The 
 
 Committee arc, however, of opinion that industrial occupation is wholly unfit for 
 
 those
 
 ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. IX 
 
 those offenders who are undergoing a short sentence, or are working out the . ', 
 earh"er stages of their imprisonment. On all grounds it ought to follow upon i \ 
 
 the hard labour of the tread-wheel or crank, and ought not to be accepted as an 
 equivalent for them. 
 
 VIII. 1. When Sir J. Graham issued a scale of diet for county and borough Diet, 
 gaols, it was understood that the dietary was not an integral part of the penal 
 system then laid down. It is, however, shown by the evidence, that in the 
 majority of county and borough gaols the diet is supposed to form part of the 
 punishment, and is more or less regulated upon that supposition. That this 
 modification of the original system is a salutary one, the Committee cannot 
 doubt. The low animal natures of too many of the criminal class, and the 
 admitted efficiency of reductions of food in cases of prison offences, render plain 
 the value of diet as one form of penal correction. Sir J. Jebb, in his evidence, 
 states this very clearly : " I think that the deterring elements of the punishment 
 are hard labour, hard fare, and a hard bed, and for the lowest class in a civil or 
 a military prison, I should propose that those elements were applied as far as 
 they could consistently be applied, with a view to deter the men from crime." 
 The medical witnesses, who have been called, concur in the expediency and 1284. 
 
 practicability of this view; and the Committee are of opinion that diet may be 
 made a just and useful element of penal disci|)line. 
 
 2. It is always difficult to arrive at a fair comparison of the conditions of 
 different classes of men ; but it may be safely laid down, that whilst sufficient in 
 amount and quality to the requirements of the prisoner's health, the diet ought 
 not to be in more favourable contrast to the ordinary food of the free labourers 
 or the inmates of the workhouse, unless sanitary conditions render it necessary.* 
 
 3. The dietary of county and borough prisons is very unsatisfactory, from the 
 total absence of uniformity, and the irreconcileable inequalities in the nature and 
 the amount of food given, whilst the dietary framed and recommended by the 
 Secretary of State, and adopted in many prisons though frequently with local 
 modifications, is not sufficiently based upon scientific and medical principles to 
 be taken as a satisfactory guide. In the opinion of witnesses who, from know- 
 ledge and experience, are entitled to every consideration, a scale of food is laid 
 down in Classes IV. and V. which is beyond the reasonable requirements of health. 
 
 4. But whilst these classes are probably in excess of the due amount of food, 
 it would seem that the Classes below them, I., II., and III., are, in some respects, 
 defective as regards the quality of the diet ; for whilst the Committee have had 
 evidence to show that animal food need not enter so largely as is at present the 
 case under the Home Office Scale into the ingredients of prison food, they are 
 not at liberty to doubt that the presence of a vegetable element, and particularly 
 of potatoes, is indispensable as a preservative against scurvy, and that the absence 
 of it has been proved by experience to be a very serious defect. 
 
 The evidence which has been received tends to show that a vegetable and 
 farinaceous diet, with the assistance of milk and some slight addition of meat, 
 might be used by prisoners without risk to health. The experience, indeed, of 
 the military prisons shows that this is possible for the first 56 days of imprisonment, 
 and the " Penal Class Diet" of Millbank, from which the element of meat is ex- 
 cluded, proves that such a diet may be sately carried on for upwards of a year. 
 
 The Committee are not indeed prepared, (on their own responsibility,) to re- 
 commend any one table of diet to be made uniform for all prisons in England and 
 Wales ; but they would draw special attention to the medical evidence which Dr. 
 Smith and Dr. Guy have given, and to the four principal scales of diet subjoined. 
 
 * There is a great conflict of opinion on the comparison of workhouse with prison dietaries. 
 Several witnesses have expressed a confident belief that the workhouse scale is very much below 
 that of the gaol. Mr. Oakley, the Governor of Taunton Gaol, compares the diet of 46 union work- 
 houses with 30 county and borough gaols, and shows, that whilst there is an average of 202 oz. of 
 solid food and 16 oz. of liquid food to each inmate of the workhouse, there is allowed an average of 
 267 oz. of solid food and 17 oz. of liquid food to every prisoner during the week (see Appendix F.); 
 and he believes that workhouse offences are committed from the sole motive of gaining admittance 
 to the superior fareandcomfortsof the prison. On the other hand, Mr.Lumley, who was summoned 
 from the Poor Law Board, has given some other figures on the same subject (see Ajjpendix G.), 
 and expresses his disbelief of the commission of workhouse offences in order to secure a removal 1432. 
 
 to the prison. 
 
 (37.) b 
 
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 ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. m 
 
 5. It is a matter for the consideration of the Secretary of State, and of (he | 
 local authorities in their various districts, how tar the present scale may be with ' 
 advantae;e modified, on the evidence which is annexed to this Report and the 
 tables of diet as laid down above ; but it appears that there are still medical and 
 scientific questions as to the eH'ect produced by confinement upon prisoners, and 
 
 as to the necessity of certain ingredients in the food, which require further inves- 
 tigation. Under these circumstances, the Committee recommend that a Com- 
 mission be issued to iuquire into these questions, with authority to determine by 
 experiment the points referred to them. 
 
 6. Whilst the Committee admit the necessity of giving to the surgeon of 
 every gaol a discretion by the occasional increase ot food to meet the special 
 circumstances of individual cases, they cannot but feel that the issue of " extra 
 diets" to prisoners who are not upon the sick-Ust, is a pov\er to be sparingly 
 used and carefully watched. It should, in their opinion, be the invariable rule 
 of every gaol, that the surgeon, when ordering extra diet to any prisoner, should 
 not only record the fact, but should m writing specify the medical grounds 
 upon which the alteration is made. 
 
 7. It is desirable, for the sake of uniformity, that the respective dietaries of 
 male and female prisoners should be adjusted by a fixed rule and proportion, and 
 that boys under 15 years of age should be classed, for the purposes of diet, with 
 the female prisoners. 
 
 IX. I. The efficiency of every prison will depend not only upon its general Prison details, 
 system, but also upon its subordinate regulations. It is mainly for the local 
 authorities to determine what tiiese shall be; but there are some of so much 
 importance, that it would be desirable to embody them in some future Act. 
 
 2. The Committee recommend, that, during short sentences or the earlier 
 stages of a long confinement, the prisoners should be made to dispense with the 
 use of a mattress, and should sleep upon planks. This is, in fnct, the practice in 
 the military prisons, where " guard-beds" are in use.* No evil has resulted from 
 this practice, and recourse might advantageously be had to it in civil prisons. 
 
 3. They observe that 9j to 10 hours is the proportion of time usually 
 devoted to sleep.f They are of opinion that this exceeds the fair allowance 
 due to health, and is injurious both to the prisoners and the prison discipline. 
 They would (in conformity with the Resolutions of the Committee of the House 
 of Commons in 1850) strongly insist upon a limitation of the time, during 
 v^hich the prisoners are allowed to be in bed, to eight hours. 
 
 4. They are of opinion that in order to avoid interference with the discipline 
 of the prison that all school instruction should be given at a fixed time, and to a 
 fixed proportion of the prisoners in succession. It does not seem necessary to 
 amend the Act of Parliament which gives a discretion to the chaplain to call for 
 any jrisoner at any hour for this purpose; but it is clearly desirable that tiie 
 chaplain and governor, subject to the control of the visiting justices, should come 
 
 to a fixed arrangement on this subject. The evening appears to the Committee 104. 2=4 
 to be a very suitable time for school instruction, both as follow iuij upon the hard 
 labour of the day, and as providing occupation for a portion of the time which 
 is now passed in sleep. But they consider school as a boon granted to the pri- 
 soner, which should under no circumstances become a substitute for labour. 
 They regard as extremely unsatisfactory a prison system in which instruction 
 by the schoolmaster, or " self-instruction," is made the substance of penal 
 discipline. 
 
 5. To give further effect to the above provisions as regards sleep, instruction 
 and reading, as well as from the great importance of the change in itself, the 
 Committee recommend that all cells should at the earliest practicable time be 
 lighted. 
 
 6. It appears that by the 4 Geo. 4, c. 64, s. 30, it is obligatory upon the chap- ..q, ,,06. 
 lain to perform both services on the Sunday, Christmas-day, and Good Friday 
 
 between the hours of nine and five. This rule is said to be occasionallv pro- 
 ductive of inconvenience, and such an alteration ought to be made in the law 
 
 as 
 
 • See Rules and Regulations for Military Prisons. April 1868. Section 170. 
 + In Bome cases even this proportion is larc^ely exceeded. 
 (37.) b 2
 
 Xii REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 as will permit the performance of evening service on those daj'S after tlie hour of 
 five in the afternoon. 
 
 7. The Committee, whilst they believe that the judicious distribution of books to 
 the prisoners may often be productive of much advantage, \vould suggest the 
 importance of preventing any over-issue. It would further, in their opinion, be 
 
 4310. desirable to modify the 2 & 3 Vict. c. 56, s. 6 — which provides that all books 
 
 admitted into the prison shall be chosen by the chaplain for the use of prisoners 
 belonging to the Church of England and by the visiting justices for the other pri- 
 soners— so far as to give the visiting justices a joint discretion and responsibility 
 in the selection and issue of all books.* 
 
 8. They consider that all convicted prisoners should be clothed in a prison 
 dress, and that the amount of clothes allowed, as also of the prison bedding, 
 should be sufficient, but moderate. 
 
 Reformatory X. 1. The possible reformation of offenders is an object which successive 
 
 Influences. Committees of both Houses have had in view. The House of Lords Com- 
 
 mittees of 1835 and 1847 both refer to it ; the House of Commons Committee 
 of 1850 recognises its importance in marked terms. The Committee fully admits 
 that it forms a necessary part of a sound penal system, but they are satisfied that, 
 in the interests of society and of the criminal himself, it is essential that the 
 other means employed for the reformation of offenders should always be accom- 
 panied by due and effective punishment. Sir W. Crofton, indeed, whose 
 experience on this subject entitles him to much consideration, does not hesitate 
 to go so far as to say that moral reformation of character is greatly assisted 
 by a preliminary course of stringent punishment.f 
 
 They also believe that the inefficiency of the present system of administering 
 the law in ordinary prisons is shown in the large proportion of prisoners M'ho, 
 after undergoing a period of confinement, are again committed to prison under 
 fresh sentences. The relapse of such prisoners is partly due to the difficulty 
 which any one of tainted character has in finding employment. 
 
 In this view, the question of rendering assistance to prisoners on discharge, 
 as a preventive measure calculated to reduce the rate of re-convictions, appears 
 to the Committee to be deserving of serious consideration. 
 
 2. The Committee, whilst they are compelled to admit that the reformation 
 of individual character by any known process of prison discipline is frequently 
 doubtl'ul, believe that the majority of prisoners are, within certain limits, open 
 to the influences of encouragement and reward. They therefore attach impor- 
 tance to the establishment, in every prison, of various gradations, which shall 
 rise from the penal and disciplinary labour of the treadwheel, crank, or shot 
 drill, into the higher and less irksome stages of industrial occupation and prison 
 
 employments. 
 
 4310. * A. "I think a revision of the statute is desirable upon that point. The Od and 3d of Victoria, 
 
 chapter 56, section 6, rule 8, says : ' No books or printed papers shall be admitted into any prison 
 but those -which shall be chosen by the chaplain for the use of prisoners belonp;ing to tlie Esta- 
 blislied Church, and by the visiting justices for the use of the other prisoners.' 'J'here is an appeal 
 to the Bishop in case of difference of opinion. I think that equal power should be given to the 
 visiting justices to select books to be read by the prisoners. 
 
 431 1- Q. " On what ground ? 
 
 A. " I have seen a novel in a prisoner's cell before now." 
 
 3183. +Q. " Your view would be, that, having regard to the requirements of prison discipline, and 
 
 the ultimate reformation of the prisoner, the penal element, whether it be by the treadwheel or by 
 the crank, ought to form a constituent part of that system ? 
 
 A. " I am quite satisfied about that, and more now than ever, because nine years since we 
 established reformatory schools at a great cost of money and time: and I think that when we do 
 so much to prevent crime, and to train those youths up, so that they shall not pursue criminal 
 avocations, we are bound, on the other hand, to be more stringent in the punishment of those who 
 still pursue a course of crime in spite of what we have done for them; and I am quite satisfied 
 that the managers of reformatory schools would consider their hands to be strengthened by 
 the prisoner knowing that pursuing a course of crime would lead to really stringent punishment, and 
 other procedure externally, wliich I shall, I hope, point out presently, 
 g Q. " It has been given in evidence before tliis Committee by some of the witnesses, that, 
 
 " in their opinion, the effect of the treadwheel and the crank is to create a sense of degradation 
 
 in the mind of the prisoner; is that your opinion ? 
 
 A. " 1 have no doubt it may do so ; but, combined with other industrial pursuits, I think it 
 miglit be counteracted. I believe that the penal element is so necessary that the feeling of 
 degradation I must place on one side altogether in my mind."
 
 ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. Xlii 
 
 employments. And with that view they would make the entire system strictly 
 progressive tiiroughout its several stages. 
 
 3. They are further disposed to recommend the adoption of some system, 
 such as that of marks, by which the progress of any prisoner can be recorded, 
 and his promotion to a higher class accelerated within certain moderate limits. 
 
 But it would be undesirable, as indeed it would in practice lead to great incon- 
 venience, to apply this modification of the ordinary discipline of the prison to 
 oftenders undergoing short sentences or the earlier stages of confinement. It 
 might safely be attempted after the first three mouths ; but under no circum- 
 stances should such promotion be allowed without actual work performed — 
 concurrently, of course, with personal good conduct. 
 
 It should also be clearly understood that any relapse will be visited not only 
 with forfeiture of the privileges gained, and a return to the more penal classes, 
 but that it will be necessary for the prisoner, by renewed exertion, to work his 
 way upwards through the ditierent steps hy which he has been put back. 
 
 XI. Punishments for offences committed in prison form so important a part Prison Punish- 
 of prison discipline, that, under any system, they cannot be overlooked. The ments. 
 Committee beUeve that in many cases misconduct is best punished by degradation 
 
 from a higher to a lower and more penal class, combined with harder labour and a 
 more sparing diet; in others, by the ordinary penalty of reduction of food, or by 
 solitary confinement in dark cells — if separated by a sufficient distance from each 
 other, and from the other ])arts of the prison — but that where the offender is 
 hardened, and the offence deliberately repeated, corporal punishment is the most 
 effective, and sometimes the only remedy. The most experienced witnesses are 
 unanimous as to the wholesome influence of corporal punishment ; some, indeed, 
 have stated, that they have never known it ineffective; and the Committee wish 
 to record their opinion of its great value as one form of disciplinary correction. 
 
 XII. i. The system of prison inspection arose out of the recommendations Inspection of 
 of the House of Lords Committee of 1835, and it will be seen, on a reference Prisons. 
 
 to the Resolution of that Committee, as well as to the general course of evidence 
 then taken, that in advising the appointment of official inspectors, it was their 
 object to secure a general uniformity of discipline. 
 
 2. But the great and irreconcileable differences of treatment and system now 
 prevailing, to which attention has already been called, sufficiently show that this 
 object has not been attained. 
 
 3. Changes have also taken place in the number of, and the work performed 
 by, the inspectors. The original number was five. This has been gradually 
 reduced to two, who now divide between themselves the whole of England, 
 Wales, Scotland, the Isle of Skye, the Orkneys, and the Shetlands. On the 
 other hand, the amount of inspection given to the different prisons appears to be 
 less than it was originally intended to be, and than is in itself desirable. The 
 5 & 6 Will. 4, c. 38, s. 7, obviously contemplates the inspection of every prison 
 at least once in the course of the year; but it appears by the evidence that in 
 many cases prisons are visited by the inspector only once in the course of 
 18 months, and that such visits average in duration from about two to four hours. 
 
 4. It further appears that it is not customary, either at the time or after the 
 inspection of the prison, for the inspector to hold communication with the visiting (. 
 justices, or even to leave any written record of his visit in the gaol,* nor does '^. ' 
 I heir official report come under the cognizance of the magistrates in quarter 
 sessions. 
 
 5. The 
 
 • There is some slight variation as between Mr. Perry and Mr. Voules Mr. Perry, in answer 
 to the question, " As an ordinary rule, you do not hold communication with the visiting justices, i8. 
 
 do you '!" replios, " We ought not to do so according to our instructions ; all our communications 
 ought to be made through the Secretary of State. As it was expressed to me when I was appointed, 
 we represent the eyes and ears of the Secretary of State, but not his tongue or voice." 
 
 On the other hand, Mr. Voules takes a soinewhat different view of his duties, as shown in the 
 following examination: — 
 
 Q. " Is it your practice to hold any communication with the visiting justices? — A. I invariably jgo-,. 
 
 communicate with them if I see any cause for doing so. My practice has been perhaps diSerevt '' 
 
 (37.) h 3
 
 XIV REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 5. The Committee have had the benefit of Mr. Everest's experience as regards 
 the course pursued at the Home Office, and on a general review of his, Mr. Perry's 
 
 76. and Mr. Voule's evidence, they cannot resist the conclusion, ibat for years past 
 
 the inspection of prisons has thus been reduced in most cases to a mere formality, 
 both as regards the supervision itself and the subsequent use made of that 
 supervision by the Secretary of State and the local authorities in counties and 
 boroughs. 
 
 6. Under these circumstances, the Committee are of opinion that every prison 
 should be inspected at least once in the course of the year, that the duration of 
 such visit should be recorded, and that, in the event of any omission to visit such 
 prison, the inspector should in his report state the fact and the reasons ; that the 
 reports, when laid before the Secretary of State, should be forwarded by him at 
 the earliest practicable moment to the Quarter Sessions in every county, and the 
 Town Coimcil in every boroujih — such report to be addressed through the Clerk, 
 of the Peace in counties, and the Town Clerk in boroughs. 
 
 7. The Committee give full credit to both the inspectors for their wish to 
 improve the general condition of the gaols placed under their supervision ; but 
 they feel bound to express their dissent fmni many of the ruling principles of 
 prison disci|iline, which they, and especially Mr. Perry, have laid down. They 
 do not consider that the moral reformation of the offender holds the primary place 
 in the prison system; that mere industrial employment without wages is a suffi- 
 
 695. cient punishment for many crimes ; that punishment in itself is morally prejudicial 
 
 to the criminal and useless to society, or that it is desirable to abolish both the 
 crank and treadwheel as soon as possible. 
 
 Pi ison Regulations XIII. — 1. It is obvious that to secure an efficient discipline, every gaol must 
 
 and Funcnons of have a definite code of rules under which it is governed. It is indeed clear that 
 
 slat?""'^'^ "'^ -^"^ ^^^ ^'1^ intention of the Legislature. The 5 & 6 Will. 4 contemplates the 
 
 existence of certain regulations in every prison, and with that view, a code of 
 
 rules has been issued by the Secretary of State for the information and adoption 
 
 32-82. of the local authorities. 
 
 But as their acceptance is left to the discretion of the local authorities, a com- 
 paratively small number of gaols in England and Wales have adopted the rules 
 as framed by the Secretary of State. In some prisons neither the rules as laid 
 down by the Secretary of State, nor any other rules framed by the governing 
 body, and approved by him, are in existence ; and in the remaining gaols the 
 regulations vary indefinitely according to the views of the governing body. 
 
 It is indeed quite true, that it is within the competency of the Secretary of State, 
 under 5 k 6 Will. 4, c. 38, s, 6, on default of the framing of the regulations by 
 the local authorities, to certify such rules as he shall deem necessary for the go- 
 vernment of any prison which shall then become binding. It appears, however, 
 that this power has never been exercised by the Secretary of State. 
 
 231 r. 2. The Committee are of opinion that such rules for gaols as may be thought 
 
 advisable should be embodied as a schedule in an Act of Parliament, and that the 
 Treasury allowance should be withheld from all gaols where those rules are not in 
 force. 
 
 XIV.— I. The 
 
 from some other inspectors, inasmuch as I have generally conferred with the visiting justices, 
 instead of making a report direct to ihe Homo Office, althoujjh I believe that in doing so I am 
 not acting in strict accordance with the directions to the inspectors ; but I liave found that I get 
 more done bj doing go than by simply making an official report." 
 
 J909. Q- " Have you found that your communications with the visiting justices have led in general to 
 
 the correction of any evil or abuse which you have pointed out, or to any change which you have 
 thought desirable? — ^. When T have communicated directly with tlio visiting justices, I have 
 found generally that they are very much disposed to carry out any iinprovemciil tli:it I have sug- 
 gested ; that is more especially the case in the counties. In the borough gaols it is dilforent. because 
 the magistrates there have not the same power. The town council alone controlling the purse- 
 strings, the magistrates cannot make any order whiih would render an outlay of mmey necessary. 
 Q. " Are your communications with the visiting justices in general verbal or written .' — A. Our 
 communications are generally verbal. They sometimes ask me to put the matter in writing, in order 
 that they may lay it before their colleagues; but I seldom meet a visiting justice in a gaol, unless 
 I write bet'oreliaiid to him ; therefore, there must necessarily be written communications." 
 
 1910
 
 ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. XV 
 
 XIV. — 1. The Committee have examined the governors of several of the minor Borough and 
 gaols, who have given their evidence with great frankness, and have fully admitted Liberty Prisons. 
 the difficulties and inconveniences which arise in their management. This evi- 
 dence is strongly corroborated by the inspectors and other witnesses; and the 
 Committee, though obviously unable to inquire into each individual case, feel 
 satisfied that a large proportion of the smaller borough prisons are deficient in 
 proper accommodation and in the means of safe custody, and are distinguished 
 neither by efficiency of administration nor by economy of expenditure. 
 
 Many of these minor prisons are little in use, for it appears by the judicial 
 statistics of 1862, that out of 193 prisons in England and Wales, there were 
 63 which, during the entire year, gave admittance to less than 25 prisoners ; and 
 that of these there were 22 prisons which received between 11 and 25 prisoners; 
 14 prisons which received less than 11, and more than six ; and 27 prisons which 
 received less than six prisoners, or in some instances were absolutely tenantless. 
 
 2. Some of these gaols, such as that of Falmouth, have repeatedly been con- '*4. 
 demned in the inspectors' reports as altogether unfit for the custody and penal 
 discipline of prisoners, and it would almost seem that the inspector in such cases 
 
 has given up the fruitless duty of making his inspection, and republishing his 
 annual censure. There is frequently an unrestrained association of untried with 
 convicted, juvenile with adult prisoners, vagrants, misdemeanants, felons ; dor- 
 mitories wholly without light or control or regulation exist, and in one case the 
 governor admits that, in the event of a disturbance at night amongst the prisoners, 
 the warder on duty would not be allowed to enter the room, for fear of an assault 
 being made upon him ; occasionally two and more prisoners have been allowed to 4624.. 
 
 sleep in the same bed. in one instance the beds themselves have been removed, 114. 
 
 lest the prisoners should break them up and make use of the fragments, whilst ug. 
 
 in another gaol the beds form so large an element of the life of the prisoners, 
 that no less than 15 hours out ot the 24 are allowed to be given to sleep. It appears 186. 
 
 that in several places tiie building itself is out of repair, or is overlooked by ad- 
 joining houses; that sometimes one man alone is in charge of the gaol, and 
 responsible for its security; that, in one case, so little facility is there for carrying 
 on the ordinary administration of the establishment, that the prisoners' food is 115. 
 
 supplied daily from the neighbouring inn, and the innkeeper's bill constitutes 
 the only accounts which are kept ; that there are times of complete idleness, when 
 neither penal labour nor light employment is given, and that amongst many other 299. 301. 
 
 abuses communications of a contaminating and injurious tendency take place 
 between the prisoners. 
 
 3. In reviewing this unsatisfactory and discreditable condition of many of the 
 minor borough gaols, the Committee cannot conceal from themselves that it is 
 in a great measure due to a disinclination on the part of the town councils 
 or governing bodies to provide the necessary means for the proper administra- 
 tion of the prison. In one instance, where the visiting justices of the borough 
 as a measure of common prudence, appointed a warder to assist the governor, 
 who is the only functionary in the gaol, the Town Council have declined to 
 confirm this order, and the warder remains unpaid. 
 
 In the same prison no chaplain has been appointed, although the 2 Sc 3 Vict. 5224' 
 
 c. 56, s. 15, makes this obligatory upon the authorities of every gaol. 
 
 4. Under these circumstances, the Committee are of opinion that an amalga- 
 mation of such small gaols with the larger prisons is highly desirable and even 
 necessary, in order to secure greater economy and efficiency of administration. 
 Powers indeed both of amalgamation and of contracting for the keep and main- 
 tenance of prisoners exist under the 16 k 17 Vict. cap. 43, and the latter course 
 has been occasionally adopted ; but little advantaiie lias been taken of the former. 
 
 Such being the case, the Committee recommend that further powers should be i"'^~' 
 
 conferred upon the Secretary of State to require the corporation of any borough, 
 or the governing body of any borough gaol — where such gaol is of too limited a 
 size to admit of satisfactory arrangements being made for the custody and disci- 
 pline of the prisoners — to contract with the county gaol upon such terms as 
 the Secietary of State shall approve. It will be desirable after due inquiry into 
 the hiCcd and special circumstances, that those borough gaols which are not " ' 
 
 required for purposes of present or future utility, should be scheduled in a Bill 
 for entire abolition. 
 
 (37 ; b 4 The
 
 XVI REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 The same principle of amalgamation might also be perhaps beneficially adopted 
 in some of the small county gaols. 
 
 The majority of liberty prisons were recently abolished, and there are few 
 now existmsi ; but their superiority over the small borough prisons is verv ques- 
 tionable, and after due examination into each individual case, the course of pro- 
 ceeding which is indicated above, might be advantageously taken. 
 
 5. A consolidation of the various statutes, and parts of statutes, relatini: to 
 the discipline and regulation of county and borough prisons, is desirable at the 
 earliest practicable time. 
 
 Identification of XV. — 1. x\lthough the proof of former convictions is not one which is direct!}- 
 
 previously com- involved in the question of prison discipline, the attention of the Committee 
 victed Prisoners, has SO frequently during the course of examination been drawn to the great 
 public inconvenience, which is i'elt from the difficulty in identifying a previously 
 convicted prisoner, that they cannot close their report without indicating, both 
 the extent of the evil and the suggestion of a remedy. The Committee are 
 satisfied that it ts of the greatest importance that those offenders who are com- 
 mencing a course of ci'ime should be made aware that each repetition of it, duly 
 recorded and proved, will involve a material increase of punishment, pain, and 
 inconvenience to them. 
 
 Sir W. Crofton states, with great clearness, the prejudicial effect wliich the diffi- 
 culty of identifying previously convicted prisoners has had in Ireland, and he has 
 indicated photography as a simple means by which it has been in a great measure 
 obviated :* 
 
 2. The 
 
 * " I believe," he says, " that at the present time the want of records and knowledge of the 
 antecedents of the prisoners who come to the county and boroutjh prisons leads to the large 
 number of okl offenders and old convicts wlio are now under detention in those prisons — to the 
 detriment of the discipline of the establishment, to the cost of the county rate, and, worse than 
 all, to the encouragement of crime, because in every gaol there are novices and tyros in crime ; 
 and we find old convicts, who have probably been under sentence of penal servitude for a long 
 period, who have been living for many years in crime, suddenly for a month or six weeks' impri- 
 sonment, side by side with a young hand who is just commencing a criminal career; and the 
 effect upon the mind of the person who has just commenced a career of crime, of knowing that 
 such immunity exists for a criminal, must be very fatal to what we want, which is the reduction 
 of crime throughout the country. I should therefore wish to see some arrangements and appliances 
 instituted which would serve in some measure, as far as possible, to check such a state of things. 
 I believe that if the criminal classes knew, and those who are commencing crime knew, and 
 those who are in reformatory schools knew, that the end of a criminal career must be a long 
 sentence of penal servitude, terminating with a civil disability in the shape of supervision, because 
 the man would then have proved himself to belong to the criminal classes, I believe that the effect 
 of that knowledge operating upon the mind of those people, would do more to reduce crime than 
 any stringent proceeding that we could adopt inside our prisons. And one arrangement for that 
 purpose (it may appear a trifling one, but it is a very efficient one, I can say after many years' 
 experience) is the institution of photography. I believe that if every man were photographed when 
 he came to prison the first time, and on the serond conviction if that photograph were sent to 
 the head of the police, it would have a very great deterrent effect with regard to crime on the 
 minds of those prisoners. In Ireland for manv years we have been carrying out this plan, and I 
 have brought a sample with me. We have a photograph taken of every man who comes into the 
 ])rison, and by a contract which we have entered into we have three of them for I s., and after the 
 third for 4d. each; you can have as many as you please to send round. This (pj-oc'nring a 
 phntor/rapfi) is the result of that expense. I can assure the Committee that the effect of the know- 
 ledge of that on the minds of those people can scarcely be exaggerated. Many people will say 
 that a man may make faces, and disguise himself while he is being photographed ; that is quite true. 
 I found for the first fortnight that there was nothing else but contortions on the part of the 
 prisoners to evade this practice; but after a fortnight there were no faces made, and they all 
 submitted to it. I am quite satisfied it has a very great effect upon them, because the police 
 then know them all, and can trace them by this means; and that system, coupled with other 
 procedure, will, I am satisfied, have more effect in reducing crime than anything I know of, because 
 it will lead at once to a man being suspected, and in many cases they woidd know him at once 
 when they see that photograph sent, without any further trouble about identification. Wo have an 
 arrangement in Ireland in all the county prisons which works extremely well ; whenever they have 
 any offender whom they either suspect or know to be a con\-ict, they send to the Directors' office 
 the particulars of the person of the man who is sent for trial in this form, which I will hand to the 
 
 3'^4^'' Committee, which description is sant to every county gaol in Ireland." 
 
 * » » • 
 
 " The case before your Lordships illustrates my view. A man for picking pockets would probably, 
 under ordinary circumstances, have had a very short period of imprisonment in the County Prison, 
 but his antecedents being thoroughly known as they were was the cause of his having 20 years' 
 penal servitude. < 
 
 3247. Q. " I understand that this system of photographing is applied in Ireland only to the case of penal 
 
 servitude men? — In some county gaols in Ireland, they have adopted it in other cases ; but I have
 
 ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. XVU 
 
 2. Tlie Governors of Bristol, Wakefield and Leeds Gaols, corroborate the 
 advantage of the use of photography,* and the Committee strongly recommend 
 the further extension of this system, which is inexpensive, etl'ective, and wholly 
 free from objection. 
 
 been referrinj; to the case of penal servitude men. I would carry it further, and use it for men under 
 short sentences, and use it with the police wlien a man comes a second time back to prison. 
 
 Q. " There could be no possible difficulty in applying it to persons in confinement in county 3248. 
 
 prisons ? — None whatever ; it v.ould be the greatest possible advantage. I could mention two 
 other cases illustrating the same thing; and the extent to which it has enabled county gaols to be 
 
 cleared of old offenders who have been convicts has been very great." 
 
 ***** 
 
 Q. " Would there be any difficulty in extending that system, and in having a thorough com- 3250. 
 
 munication between county prison and country prison ? — There would be no objection to it whatever ; 
 it would be quite as easy as fiom the Directors' Office." 
 
 * See Mr. Gardner's evidence (3.583). " I introduced some years ago (indeed I was the first 
 who introduced them) the daguerreotvpe portraits of the prisoners, and, from having succeeded 
 in one or two cases, we introduced it more freeiy ; we now take a large number of portraits, and I 
 think it would be very difficult for a man to escape detection in our gaol. I take a stereoscopic 
 picture instead of a plain portrait, and I request the parties to whom I send it to put it into the 
 stereoscope ; they have a better opportunity of seeing the man before them standing out in relief. 
 
 Q. " Do you take a portrait of every prisoner who is committed to your gaol 7 — We do not. 'i';84. 
 
 I do it myself; and I have no time to take so many. We merely take portraits of those whom we 
 do not know. Railway thieves, and strangers to the city, who are taken up for picking pockets 
 at the railway stations and in railway carriages. 
 
 Q. " Have you found the practical advantages of that system ? — Yes, I have found out a great 3585. 
 
 many by that means. On one occasion I recollect an officer of mine being offered a large sum of 
 money by the wife of a prisoner to release him. He was offered 100 l. This was reported to me ; 
 and I thought that as the man had only three months more to serve, he certainly must be wanting 
 somewhere else. I took his portrait directly, and sent it round to perhaps -10 or 50 different gaols, 
 and he was recognised at last at Dover. I had an order from the Secretary of State to remove 
 him, instead of discharging him. I removed him on a Friday, and on ihe following Friday he 
 was sentenced to 15 years' transportation, for highway robbery." 
 
 Oi .
 
 ( xviii ) 
 
 ORDER OF REFERENCE. 
 
 Die Veneris, 20° Fehruarii, 1863. 
 
 Select Committee appointed to considei' and report on the present State of Discipline 
 in Gaols and Houses of Correction. 
 
 The Lords following were named of the Committee: The Committee to meet on 
 
 Tuesday next, at Four o'clock, and to appoint their own Chairman. 
 
 Lord President. 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 Die Jovis, 12" Martii, 1863. 
 
 The Evidence taken before the Select Committee from time to time, to be printed for 
 the use of the Members of this House ; but no Copies thereof to be delivered, except to 
 the Members of the Committee, until further Order.
 
 ( xix ) 
 
 LORDS PRESENT, AND MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS AT THE 
 SITTING OF THE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Die Martis, 24" Februarii, 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT: 
 
 Lord President. 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 
 Order of Reference read. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of Diicie. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 
 Order of the House of the 20th February, empowering the Committee to name their 
 own Chairman, read. 
 
 It is proposed that the Earl of Carnarvon do take the Chair ; the same is agreed to, 
 and the Earl of Carnarvon takes the Chair accordingly. 
 
 The course of Proceeding is considered. 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, at One o'clock. 
 
 Die Martis, 3" Martii, 1863. 
 
 LOKDS PRE8ENT: 
 
 Lord President. 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Lyvedeu. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last are read. 
 
 John George Perry, Esq., Inspector of Prisons in the Southern District, is called in, and 
 examined. (F?«?e the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, at One o'clock. 
 
 (37.) 
 
 c2
 
 AX PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 Uie Jocis, [>" Martii, lii63. 
 
 LOKDS PRESENT : 
 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Caraarvon. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 Earl of Eomnev. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Eiirl of Ducie. 
 Eai-1 of Dudley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The Earl of Carxakvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last read. 
 
 John George Pern/, Esq., Inspector of Prisons, is again called in, and further 
 examined. ( Vide the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Conmiittee be adjourned to Monday next, at One o'clock. 
 
 Die Luna, 9^ Martii, 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRE.SENT : 
 
 Lord President. 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair, 
 
 Earl of Romney. 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Thursday last are read. 
 
 Edward Smith, Esq., M. D., is called in, and examined. ( Vide the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, at One o'clock. 
 
 Die Joris, 12'' Martii, 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT : 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Romnev. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Monday last are read. 
 
 MajorGeneral Sir Joshua Jebb, K. C.B., Surveyor-General of Prisons, is called in, and 
 examined. ( Vide the Evidence.) 
 
 John George Perry, Esq., Inspector of Prisons, is again called in, and further exa- 
 mined. ( Vide the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be arljourncd to Tuesday next, at One o'clock.
 
 ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 XXI 
 
 Die Martis, 1/° Martii, 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT : 
 
 Lord President. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 Earl of Eomney. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Thursday last are read. 
 
 The following Witnesses are called in, and examined; viz.. Major William Fulford, 
 R. A., Governor of the Staftbrd County Gaol, and William Musson, Esq., Governor of the 
 Leicester County Gaol. ( Vide the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, at One o'clock. 
 
 Die Mar lis, 24° Martii, 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT I 
 
 Duke of IMarlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair, 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last are read. 
 
 Albert Poulton Voules, Esq., Inspector of Prisons in the Northern District, is called in, 
 and examined. ( Vide the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, at One o'clock. 
 
 Die Jovis, 26° Martii, 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT : 
 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of ]Malmesbury. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 
 Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last are read. 
 
 The following Witnesses are called in, and examined ; viz., G. Everest, Esq., and 
 Captain Charles Maxwell Luckraft, r.n., Governor of the Naval Prison at Lewes. ( Vide 
 the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday, the 16th of April next. 
 
 (37.) 
 
 c3
 
 xxu 
 
 PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 Die Jovis, 16° Aprilis, 1863. 
 
 LOKDS PRESENT : 
 
 Lord President. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 In the absence of the Earl of Carnarvon, it is proposed that the Marquess of Salisbury 
 do take the Chair. 
 
 The same is agreed to, and the Marquess of Salisbury takes the Chair accordingly. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Thursday, the 26th of March last, arc read. 
 
 The following Witnesses are called in, and examined ; viz., William Merry, Esq., and 
 Edward Shepherd, Esq. ( Vide the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, at One o'clock. 
 
 Die Martis, -IV Aprilis, 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT : 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Mar(iuess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of Adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Thursday last are read. 
 
 Edward Shepherd, Esq., is again called in, and fui'ther examined. ( Vide the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, at Twelve o'clock. 
 
 Die Jovis, 2.3° Martii, 18«;5. 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvou. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT : 
 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last are read. 
 
 Sir fValter Crofton is called in, and examined. ( Vide the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to To-morrow, at One o'clock.
 
 ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. xxiii 
 
 Die Veneris, 24° Aprilis, 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Marquess of Salisbury 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 
 Earl of Romney. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 Earl f)f Dudley. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of yesterday are read. 
 
 The following Witnesses are called in, and examined ; viz. William Oakley, Esq., 
 Governor of the Taunton Gaol ; William Golden Lumley, Esq. ; and James Anthony 
 Gardner, Esq., Governor of the Bristol Gaol. {Vide the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, at One o'clock. 
 
 Die Martis, 28' Aprilis, 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT : 
 
 Duke of Richmond 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 Lord Ly veden. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order oi' adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Friday last are read. 
 
 The following Witnesses are called in, and examined; viz. William Augustus Guy, 
 Esq., M.D.J and George Pinson, Esq., Governor of Norwich Castle. ( Vide the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, at One o'clock. 
 
 Die Jovis, 30° Aprilis, 1863. 
 
 lords PRESENT; 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Earl of St. Germans. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of Duoie. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last are read. 
 
 William Linton, Esq., Governor of the Petworth Gaol, is called in, and examined. {Vide 
 the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Saturday next, at half-past Eleven 
 o'clock. 
 
 (37.) C 4
 
 XXIV 
 
 PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 Die Sabbati, 2° Mali, 1863. 
 
 Eai-1 Cathcart. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT: 
 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Eomney. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Thursday last are read. 
 
 The following Witnesses are called in, and examined; viz. Major C. IF. Bannister, 
 Governor of the Maidstone Gaol, and Mr. Charles Augustus Keene, Governor of the 
 Leeds Gaol. ( Vide the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, at One o'clock. 
 
 Die Martis, 5° Maii, 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT ; 
 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Saturday last are read. 
 
 The following Witnesses are called in, and examined ; viz., Mr. John Deayton, governor 
 of the St. Alban's Liberty Gaol ; Mr. George ffliitehaU, Governor of the Poole Borough 
 Gaol ; Mr. Joseph Constance, Governor of the New Radnor Borough Gaol. ( Vide 
 the Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, at One o'clock. 
 
 Die Jovis, T Midi, 1863. 
 
 lords present : 
 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last, are read. 
 
 The following Witnesses are called in, and examined ; viz., Colonel Thomas Harpvr 
 Coloille, Governor of Coldbath Fields Prison ; Mr. William Griffiths, Governor of the 
 Worcester Borough Gaol ; Mr. George Julgan, Governor of the Falmouth Borough Gaol; 
 and William Augustus Gug, U.I)., is again called in, and further examined. (^Vide the 
 Evidence.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday next.
 
 ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 XXV 
 
 Die Jovis, 14° Mali, 1863. 
 
 LOEDS present: 
 
 Lord President. 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Thursday last are read. 
 
 Heads for a Draft Report are laid before the Committee by the Chairman. 
 
 The same are read, and considered. 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Friday, the 19th of June next. 
 
 Die Vefieris, 19° Jimii, 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT: 
 
 Lord President. 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 
 Earl of Diicie. 
 Viscount Eversley, 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of the 14th of May last are read. 
 A Draft Report is laid before the Committee by the Chairman. 
 The same is read, and several amendments are made therein. 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next. 
 
 Die Martis, 23° Junii, 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT ; 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 
 Eai'l of Ducie. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The proceedings of the Committee of Friday last are read. 
 
 The Draft Report is again considered, and further amendments are made therein. 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned till Friday next, at Twelye o'clock. 
 
 (37.)
 
 Xxvi PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 Die Veneris, 26" J unit, 1863. 
 
 Dul?e of Kichmond. 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 
 LORDS present: 
 
 Earl of Ducle. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Wensleydale 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last are read. 
 
 The Draft Report is again considered, and further amendments are made therein. 
 
 It is moved by the Lord Wensleydale that the further consideration of the Report be 
 postponed, and that further evidence be taken with a view to the framing of a scale of diet 
 to be made uniform in all prisons. 
 
 Objected to ; and, on question, resolved in the negative. 
 
 The following paragraph of the Draft Report (VIIl. 3), is then read, and is as follows. 
 
 VIZ ; 
 
 " The dietary of county and borough prisons is very imsatisfactory, from the total 
 absence of uniformity, and the irreconcileable inequalities in the nature and tlie amount of 
 " food given, whilst the dietary framed and recommended by the Secretary of State, and 
 " adopted in many prisons, though frequently with local modifications, is not sufficiently 
 " based upon scientific and medical principles to be taken as a satisfactory guide. In the 
 " opinion of witnesses who, from knowledge and experience, are entitled to every con- 
 " sideration, a scale of food is laid down in Classes IV. and V. which is beyond the 
 " reasonable requirements of health." 
 
 It is proposed by the Lord Wodehouse to leave out from " guide," in line 5 of the para- 
 graph, to the end of the paragraph, and to substitute the following words in lieu thereof, 
 viz. : — 
 
 " The Committee would draw special attention to the valuable evidence of Dr. Smith 
 " and Dr. Guy, and to the four scales of diet subjoined, but they are not prepared on their 
 " own responsibility to frame a new prison dietary. It appears to the Committee that 
 " there are many questions as to the effect produced upon health by imprisonment, and 
 " the necessity of certain ingredients in prison food, which require further investigation 
 " before a uniform dietary can be safely framed for all prisons in England and Wales; and 
 " they therefore recommend that a Commission be issued to inquire into the whole subject 
 " of prison diet." 
 
 Objected to. 
 
 On Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph: 
 
 Not Contents. 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 Contents. 
 
 Duke of Marltorough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 
 The following paragraph of the Draft Report (VIIL 4), is then read, and is as follows; 
 viz. : — 
 
 " But whilst these classes are probably in excess of the due amount of food, it would 
 " seem that the Classes below them, I., II., III., arc, in some respects, defective as regards 
 " the quality of the diet ; for whilst the Committee have had evidence to show that animal 
 " food need not enter so largely as is at present the case under the Home Office Scale 
 " into the ingredients of prison food, they are not at liberty to doubt that the presence of 
 " a veget<able element, and particularly of potatoes, is indispensable as a preservative 
 " against scurvy, and that the absence of it has been proved by experience to be a very 
 " serious defect. The evidence which has been received tends to show that a vegetable 
 " and farinaceous diet, with the assistance of milk and some slight addition of meat, might 
 " be used by prisoners without risk to health. The experience, indeed, of the military 
 " prisons shows that tliis is possihle for the first 56 days of imprisonment, and the ' Penal 
 " Class Diet' of Millbank, from which the clement of meat is excluded, proves that such 
 " a diet may be safely carried on for upwards of a year."
 
 ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. XXVll 
 
 It is proposed by the Duke of Richmond to leave out from " defect," in line 8 of the 
 paragraph to the end of the paragraph. 
 
 Objected to. 
 
 On Question, that the words proposed to be left out, stand part of the paragraph. 
 
 Contents. 
 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 
 Not Contents. 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The following paragraph of the Draft Report is then read, and is as follows ; viz. : — 
 
 " The Committee have been during the course of the evidence forcibly impressed with 
 " the anomaly, that under the ordinary practice of English gaols, the shorter sentence, 
 " and probably, therefore, the minor oifence, is followed by a very severe diet, whilst 
 " the longer sentence, which represents the heavier offence, carries with it an ample if 
 " not an excessive proportion of food. This inconsistency has doubtless originated in a 
 " fear of impairing the health of the prisoner sentenced to long periods of confinement ; but 
 " after a careful review of the medical evidence submitted to them, the Committee think 
 " that it is possible to reconcile the double principle of making the food in short sentences 
 " as scanty and uninviting as is consistent with health, and of augmenting that food in pro- 
 " portion to the increase of sentence. They fully admit the justice of Dr. Guy's proposal, 
 " that the diet should increase with the imprisonment in as proportionate and equal a 
 " degree as is practicable : and that in this view there should be some constant elements, 
 " such as bread, subject to which the addition in each such successive stage should be 
 " made ; but under all circumstances they would recommend that for the future the diet 
 " should be made progressive, and that all prisoners should commence with the lowest 
 " class." 
 
 It is moved by the Duke of Richmond, to leave out from the beginning of the para- 
 graph to " this " in 1. 5 of the paragraph. 
 
 Objected to. 
 
 On Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand pai-t of the paragraph. 
 
 Contents. 
 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Ducie. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 
 Not Contents. 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Stewai-d. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 It is then moved by the Chairman that the paragraph, as amended, stand part of the 
 report. 
 
 Objected to. 
 
 On Question, resolved in the Negative. 
 
 The following paragraph of the Draft Report (X. I.) is then read, and is as follows, 
 viz. : — 
 
 " The possible refonnation of offenders is an object which successive Commitees of both 
 " Houses have had in view. The House of Lords Committees of 1835 and 1847 both 
 " refer to it ; the House of Commons Committee of 1850 recognizes its importance in 
 " marked terms. The Committee fully admits that it forms a necessary part of a sound 
 " penal system ; but they are satisfied that in the interests of society and of the criminal 
 " himself, it is essential that the other means employed for the reformation of offenders 
 " should always be accompanied by due and effective punishment. Sir \V. Crofton, indeed, 
 " whose experience on this subject entitles him to much consideration, does not hesitate to 
 " go so far as to say that moral reformation of character is greatly assisted by a preliminary 
 " course of stringent punishment." 
 
 It is proposed by the Duke of Richmond, to leave out from " punishment" in line 7 of 
 the paragraph to the end of the paragraph. 
 
 Objected to. 
 
 (37.) e On
 
 XXVIU 
 
 PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 On Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragi-aph. 
 
 Contents. Not Contents. 
 
 Marquess of Salisbury. Duke <if Richmond. 
 
 Lord Steward. Lord Wodehouse. 
 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord AV ensleydale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The following paragraph of the Draft Report, (X. 3,) is then read, and is as follows: — 
 
 " They are further disposed to recommend the adoption of some system such as that of 
 " marks, by which the progress of any prisoner can be recorded, and his promotion to a 
 " hiffher class accelerated within certain moderate limits." 
 
 It is proposed by the Duke of Richmond to leave out the words " such as that 
 " of marks," in lines 1 and 2 of the paragraph. 
 
 Objected to. 
 
 On Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph. 
 
 Not Contents. 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 
 Contents. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Monday the Gth July, at Two o'clock. 
 
 Die Lwice, 6" JuUi, 18G3. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 
 Earl of Romney. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair. 
 Order of adjournment read. 
 
 The Proceedings of the Committee of Friday last are read. 
 The Draft Report is again considered, and further amendments are made therein. 
 
 The following paragraph of the Draft Report (XII. 7) is then read, and is as follows : — 
 " The Committee give full credit to both the inspectors for their wish to improve the 
 " general condition of the gaols placed under their supervision ; but, looking to their 
 " official position, and the natural influence exercised by them, the Committee feel bound, 
 " in conclusion, to express their dissent from many of the ruling principles of prison dis- 
 " cipline, which they, and especially Mr. I'erry, liave laid down. They do not consider 
 " tliat the moral reformation of the offender holds the primary place in tlie prison system ; 
 " that mere industrial employment without wages is a sufficient punishment for many 
 " crimes ; that punishment in itself is morally prejudicial to the criminal and useless to 
 " society, or that it is desirable to abolish both the crank and treadwheel as soon as 
 " possible." 
 
 It is proposed by the Duke of Marlhnrouf/h to leave out the words " looking to the 
 " official position, and the natural influence exercised by them," in lines 2 and 3 of the 
 paragrapli. 
 
 Objected to. 
 
 On Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph. 
 
 Contents. 
 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Riimney. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 Not Contentsv 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Lord AVodehousc. 
 
 The
 
 ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. XXIX 
 
 The division being equal, resolved in the Negative. 
 
 Further Amendments are made in the paragraph, and the same is agreed to. 
 
 The following paragraph of the Draft Report is proposed by the Chairman ; the same 
 is read, and is as follows ; 
 
 " It is perhaps doubtful whether any such power would be exercised by a Secretary of 
 " State, if the responsibility of taking action should rest solely with him. The enforce- 
 '• ment of rules by his direct authority will be always attended with some difficulty, and 
 " there will probably be less risk of failure if a legislative requirement can be made the 
 " substitute for personal or official responsibility. It will therefore be desirable to embody 
 " as a schedule in any Act of Parliament, by which effect is given to these recommenda- 
 " tions, such rules and regidations as seem desirable. 
 
 " If indeed, after this, the conditions of the Act are not complied with, it will become 
 " the duty of the Secretary of State, when he has duly verified the fact, to see that so 
 " much of the Treasury allowance as would be appropriated to any such defaulting prison, 
 " be withheld until the omission is corrected." 
 
 Objected to. 
 
 On Question, that the paragraph proposed stand part of the Report. 
 
 Contents : 
 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The division being equal, resolved in the negative. 
 
 Not Contents : 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 
 The following paragraph Is then proposed by the Duke of Marlborough : 
 
 " The exercise of the powers now conferred upon the Secretary of State for the enforce- 
 ment of rules by his direct authority will be always attended with some difficulty, and 
 there will probably be less risk of failure if a legislative requirement can be made the 
 substitute for personal or official responsibility." 
 
 Objected to. 
 
 On Question, that the paragraph proposed stand part of the Report. 
 
 Contents. 
 
 Duke of Marlboroujih. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 
 Not Contents. 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The following paragraph is then proposed by the Lord Wodehouse ; viz. : — 
 
 " The Committee are of opinion that such rules for gaols as may be thought advisable 
 " should be embodied as a schedule in an Act of Parliament, and that the Treasury allow- 
 " ance should be withheld from all gaols where those rules are not in force," (after XIII. 1 
 of the Draft Report.) 
 
 Objected to. 
 
 On Question, that the paragraph proposed stand part of the Report : 
 
 Contents. 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 
 Not Contents. 
 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 The following paragraph of the Draft Report (XV. 1.) is then read, and is as fol- 
 lows ; viz. : — 
 
 " Although this subject is not one which is directly involved in the question of prison 
 " discipline, the attention of the Committee has so frequently during the course of exami- 
 " nation been drawn to the great public inconvenience, which is felt from the difficulty in 
 " identifying a previously convicted prisoner, that they cannot close their report without 
 " indicating, both the extent of the evil and a suggestion of a remedy. The Committee 
 " are satisfied that those offenders who are commencing a course of crime should be made 
 
 (37.) " aware
 
 XIX PROCEEUINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 " aware that each repetition of it, duly recorded and proved, will involve a material 
 " increase of punishment, pain and inconvenience to him. 
 
 " Sir W. Crofton states, with great clearness, the prejudicial effect which the difficulty 
 " of identifying previously convicted prisoners has had in Ireland, and he has indicated 
 " photography as a simple remedy by means of which it has been in a great measure 
 " obviated." 
 
 It is proposed by the Duke of Richmond to leave out from " him," in line 8 of the para- 
 graph, to the end of the paragraph. 
 
 Objected to. 
 
 On Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph : 
 
 Contents. 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 
 Not Contents. 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Earl of Romney, 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 
 Amendments are made in the paragraph, and the same is agreed to. 
 
 The report is read, with the amendments, and is agreed to. ( Vide the Report.) 
 
 Ordered, That the Lord in the Chair do make the said report to the House.
 
 M I N U T E S OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 (37. 1.)
 
 [ 2 ] 
 
 LIST OF WITNESSES. 
 
 Die Martis, 3° Afartii 1863. 
 John George Perry, Esq. - - 3 
 
 Die Jovis, 5" 3Iartn 1863. 
 John George Perry, Esq. - - 41 
 
 Die Luim, 9° Martii 1863. 
 
 Edward Smith, Esq., M.r>., ll.b., 
 
 F.K.S. ----- 73 
 
 Die Jovis, 12° iMartii 1863. ' 
 Major General Sir Joshua Jebb 
 
 K.C.B. - . - 
 
 John George Perry, Esq. 
 
 107 
 - 131 
 
 Die Martis, 17" 3Iartii 1863. 
 
 Major William Fulford, n.A. - 141 
 
 William Musson, Esq. - - - 160 
 
 Die Martis, 24" Martii 1863. 
 Herbert Poulton Vonles, Esq. - 177 
 
 Die Jovis, 26" Martii 1863. 
 
 George Everest, Esq. - - - 211 
 
 Captain Charles Maxwell Luck- 
 raft, K.N. ----- 227 
 
 Die Jovis, 16° Aprilis 1863. 
 
 William Merry, Esq. - - - 237 
 Edward Shepherd, Esq. - - 255 
 
 Die Martis 21" Aprilis 1863. 
 
 Edward Shepherd, Esq. - - 265 
 
 Die Jovis, 23° Aprilis 1863. 
 
 Sir Walter Crofton, c. b. - - 295 
 
 Die Veneris, 24" Aprilis 1863. 
 
 William Oakley, Esq. - - - 315 
 
 William Golden Lumley, Esq. - 319 
 
 James Anthony Gardner, Esq. - 327 
 
 Die Martis, 28° Aprilis 1863. 
 
 WiUiam Augustus Guy, Esq.,M. b. 347 
 
 George Pinson, Esq. _ - - 373 
 
 Die Jovis, 30" Aprilis 1863. 
 
 William Linton, Esq. - - - 383 
 
 Die Sabbati, 2" Mali 1863. 
 
 Major C. W. Bannister - - 407 
 
 Mr. Charles Augustus Keene - 414 
 
 Die Martis, 5" Mail 1863. 
 
 Mr. John Dayton - - . 423 
 
 Mr. George "Whitehall - - - 431 
 
 Mr. Josejih Constance - - - 442 
 
 Die Jovis, 7" Mail 1863. 
 
 Thomas Harpur Colvill, Esq. - 439 
 
 Mr. William Griffiths - - - 450 
 
 Mr. George Julyan - . . 457 
 
 William Augustus Guy, Esq., M. b. 466
 
 ( 3 ) 
 
 Die Mar lis, 3° Martii 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT: 
 
 LoKD President. 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of CARNAEVOiir. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 Earl of RoMNEY. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 
 Viscount EVEESLEY. 
 Lord WODEHOUSE. 
 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair. 
 
 Evidence on 
 Prison Discipline. 
 
 JOHN GEORGE PERRY, Esquire, is called in, and examined as follows : j q pg^^u Esq 
 
 1. Chairman^] YOU are one of the Inspectors of Prisons, are you not? 
 
 I am one < if the Inspectors of Prisons, and a Fellow of the College of Surgeons. 
 
 2. Formerly there were five inspectors, were there not i 
 There were. 
 
 3. Since that, the number has been reduced considerably ? 
 It has been slowly reduced to the present number of two. 
 
 4. You mean since Sir John Kincaid's death ? 
 Yes, that was the last reduction. 
 
 5. Will you tell the Committee what the extent of your district is ? 
 
 My present district comprises Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, Cornwall, De- 
 vonshire, Dorsetshire, Essex, Gloucestershire, Hertfordshire, Kent, Middlesex, 
 Monmouthshire, Oxford, Somerset, Hampshire, Surrey, Sussex, and Wiltshire ; 
 those comprised my old district ; and then an addition which was made last 
 year to my district comprises Bedford, Cambridge, Hereford, Huntingdon, 
 Norfolk, Shropshire, Suffolk, Warwickshire, Worcestershire ; 26 Enghsh 
 counties ; and besides those, ray district comprises the 12 counties of Wales. 
 
 6. That appears not to be an exact division of England by a line drawn 
 laterally from east to west ? 
 
 No ; the division was made partly with reference to communication by 
 railways. 
 
 7. Do the inspectors of prisons adhere rigidly to their districts, or do they 
 ever exchange their districts ? 
 
 My colleague is strictly confined to his own district ; but I hold another 
 appointment, that of Medical Inspector of Prisons, in respect of which I may 
 be called upon to go upon medical questions to any part of England or Wales. 
 
 8. Is it a desirable arrangement that each inspector should be confined to his 
 own particular district ? 
 
 "^ I think it is, because they become better acquainted with the circumstances 
 of the locality, and of the particular prisons, by being so confined. 
 
 3d March 186:5. 
 
 (37. 1.) 
 
 A2 
 
 Might
 
 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. J'enij, Esq. y. Might not there be an advantage in their occasionally seeing the prisons 
 "~~ of a different district, and bringing to bear upon their system of management 
 
 3c - »rc 1 1 3. ppi-i^jj^pg ^ somewhat diffei-ent opinion r 
 
 It would l)e quite impossible that the duty could be discharged by two per- 
 sons if that were the case, because each would have to learn his lesson afresh, 
 and to learn all the circvunstances of the prisons, which we, having held office 
 for a great many years, have become gradually acquainted with. If we were 
 suddenly to change districts, it would be quite impossible that we could do the 
 same amount of inspection in the same time. 
 
 1 (>. Are you of opinion that it was an improvement to have reduced the 
 lumiber of inspectors, and the number of districts to two ? 
 
 Perhaps the number is now too far reduced ; but the work will become 
 easier after this year. 
 
 1 1 . How large a portion of the year does your district occupy in visiting it ? 
 The mere travelling probably occupies about four months ; but there is a 
 
 great deal of work at home arising from references and questions between the 
 Secretary of State and the Visiting Justices, whicli take up a great deal more 
 time than tlie visitation of the prisons ; besides which, there is the preparation 
 of the reports, which requires a great deal of correspondence, to get statistical 
 information, to get information as to matters which may either have been 
 overlooked, or may not have been perfectly examined at the 'tune of the ^dsit, 
 so that there is a great deal more time taken up now, under the altered arrange- 
 ments, in consequence of the increased number of prisons, and the increased 
 amount of correspondence. And I ought to mention that the inspectors have 
 no clerk or other assistance, so that all tiie correspondence and all the reporting 
 rests upon themselves. 
 
 12. Are your reports compiled from the notes which you take at the time of 
 each inspection, or are they drawn from information which you obtain sub- 
 sequently ? 
 
 Partly the one and partly the other. 
 
 13. What are the times of your regular visits ? 
 
 1 make a point of not visiting the same prisons at the same time of the year ; 
 in fact, all my arrangements are directed to ensuring that I shall not be ex- 
 pected in my visits ; because it would be fruitless, and would be hardly fair to 
 the prison officers themselves, if 1 were to go at one specitic time to each prison, 
 because it might be said that they had prepared everything for my visit. 
 
 14. Practically, is it the case that when you do come you are unexpected? 
 Almost invariably. 
 
 15. You give no notice ? 
 
 I give no notice, except when I go for the purpose of meeting the magistrates, 
 or making some special inquiry, when of course notice is necessary. 
 
 i(). What is the number of your regular visits to every prison, in the course 
 of the year ? 
 
 They vary very much ; some prisons I have visited as many as 10 times in a 
 year, and others not more than once perhaps in 15 or 18 months ; there is no 
 time specified in our instructions, and it would be very inconvenient that any 
 time should be specified, because we should then have to dispose of our time 
 often fruitlessly, instead of bestowing it where we thought we were most 
 required. 
 
 17. What are the extraordinary visits dependent upon? 
 
 Sometimes upon comj)hiints of ])risoners which are rei'erred to the in- 
 spectors by the ^Secretary of iState, and then of course it is necessary that the 
 prison authorities should be informeiJ of our intenticm of visiting, and of the 
 time of our proposed visit, meetings with the magisti'ates at their recjuest, &c. 
 
 18. As an ordinary rule, you do not hold communication with the visiting 
 justices, do you ? 
 
 We ought not to do so ; ncpording to our instructions all our communications 
 ought to be made through the Secretary of State. As it was expressed to me 
 
 when
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCII'LINE. 5 
 
 when I was appointed, we represent the eyes and ears of the Secretary of State, J- ('. Peny, £t(j. 
 
 but not his voice. ^ , >. i~ ^.v- , 
 
 3a March ii:();j. 
 
 1 9. Would it not be a great advantage if you were to hold personal or 
 
 written communication with the Visiting Justices, upon whom the whole 
 machinery of prisons rests ? 
 
 We are always ready to do so at their request, but we are instructed not to 
 make our recommendations for alteration directly to them, until they have 
 received the approval of the Secretary of State. 
 
 20. Do you leave any written record of your visit in the prison itself? 
 No, we do not. 
 
 21. And. of course, there is no communication made by you in any shape to 
 the quarter sessions ? 
 
 Tsot directly from ourselves. 
 
 22. Would it not be a great advantage that there should be some record of 
 your opinion of the circumstances of the gaol, and of the manner in which it 
 is carried on ? 
 
 I do not think it would, as it would occupy too much time 
 
 23. Marquess of Salishury.'l Do you not make some short report to the 
 Secretary of State from your notes ? 
 
 \\ henever there is anything special to be reported, we do ; we are directed 
 when there is anything requiring immediate attention to make a special report, 
 and those special reports are sent down at once to the magistrates. 
 
 •24. Chairvian.'] The ordinary reports, I think, are not laid before the quarter 
 sessions, or before any number of magistrates ? 
 
 The ordinar)' reports are always sent to the visiting magistrates. 
 
 25. By the Secretary of State r 
 
 Nominally by the Secretary of State, but really by the Inspector. 
 
 2fi. Duke of Marluoroiif/h.] Under what Act do you exercise your functions? 
 Under the Act of the 5 & 6 WiU. 4, c. 38. 
 
 27. Chairman.'] Will you stale what you conceive to be your powers acting 
 under that statute, and also under the instructions which you receive from the 
 Secretary of State ? 
 
 To examine all the books and all the salaried officers of the prison, to hear 
 complaints from prisoners, to visit every part of the prison, and to see as far 
 as we can that the rules and regulations of the Secretary of State and the enact- 
 ments of the law are carried out, and to report any deviation from them to the 
 Secretary of State. 
 
 28. It is your duty idso. is it not, to certify cells ? 
 
 Yes, that is another part of our duty, to certify the cells intended for separate 
 contjnement under the Act of the second and third of the present Queen, 
 chapter 5(5. 
 
 29. Can you put in a copy of the instructions of the Secretary of State ? 
 
 I have never received direct instruct inns, excepting a paper which was pub- 
 lished some years after 1 w^as appointed, but I have no doubt that I can put 
 that in. 
 
 30. Viscount Eversley.'] Are any rules of the government of prisons sanctioned 
 by the Home Office? 
 
 There are, but the law requires that they should be iirst proposed by the 
 magistrates in quarter sessions, and that they should be sent up by the clerk of 
 the peace, to be certified for the prison by the Secretary of State. In the year 
 1842 the Secretary of State circulated a copy of regulations for prisons; not 
 intending that they should be binding upon prisons, for he had no power to 
 impose them upon the justices, but as a suggestion to the justices upon which 
 they might form rules of their own, because some of the rules are applicable to 
 one kind of prison and others to another ; for instance, some prisons are for 
 debtors only, others for women only, others are mere gaols ; others are also 
 houses of correction, others are houses of correction only ; so that the rules of 
 the Secretary of State are not exactly adapted to any one prison, but they 
 
 (37. 1.) A 3 were
 
 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ./. G. Perry, Esq. were sent down as a guide to the justices in quarter sessions, and to the visiting 
 3d March 1863. justices ni drawins; up their own regulations, and they were very generally 
 adopted in all prisons. 
 
 31. Marquess of Salisbury.'] At what date was that done? 
 Somewhere about the year 1842, I think. 
 
 32. Earl Cathcart.'] You mention in your report, do you not, that there are 
 two prisons in your district which have no rules at all ? 
 
 There must be more than two ; there are several, but the magistrates gene- 
 rally act upon the regulations that I have just alluded to, considering that they 
 are really binding upon them ; they do not appear to have understood that 
 those regulations when adopted must be sent up for contirmation. 
 
 3,'^. Is it a compliance with the Act of Parliament that there should be 
 prisons without any rules at all ? 
 
 Practically they are under rules, because they act upon those rules ; but the 
 Secretary of State has no power to impose rules, but merely to consent to or 
 dissent from the rules which are sent up by the magistrates. 
 
 34. Then, in those prisons which have not regular formal rules, are the rules 
 which are sent down by the Secretary of State published, and made known to 
 the prisoners ? 
 
 They are generally very small prisons, in which I do not suppose that the 
 rules are printed for that purpose, but the prisoners are made aware of the rules 
 under v. hich they are governed. 
 
 3,5. But I presume you do not approve of prisons being without regularly 
 authorised rules ? 
 Certainly not. 
 
 36. Earl of Malmeshurj/.] What are the exact liuiits of the Secretary of 
 State's power with respect to rules ? 
 
 lie has the power of certifying them as the judges had under the old Acts of 
 Parliament. He has had that power ever since the year 1835 ; and when the 
 rules are sent up, as tiiey are recpiired to be, once a year, from each prison, he 
 has also the power of making alterations in them ; but that power has been very 
 seldom exercised, because the magistrates generally prefer making the. rules 
 themselves, and they very often object to the alterations that are made, which 
 leads to very long correspondence. It seems to me that it would be a very 
 great advantage if there were certain definite codes of rules for all prisons of 
 certain characters, as for instance for all gaols, all housrs of correction, debtors' 
 gaols, and so on ; that there should be four or five definite codes, and not, as is 
 the case at present, infinite varieties. In fact, the variations of the rules of 
 prisons are so great that it is hardly possil^le for the inspector at the time he is 
 going round a prison to have in his mind the rules of that particular prison, 
 because so many rules have been introduced, and so many have been struck 
 out and modified (sometimes only in a few words), that there is no uniform 
 code, except in those prisons where the Secretary of State's regulations iiave 
 been accepted entirely. 
 
 37. But has the Secretary of State the power of vetoing a set of rules r 
 He has. 
 
 38. Do you not find that he often ol)jects to alterations made by the magis- 
 trates with regard to his own regulations '! 
 
 The alterations made by the magistrates are sometimes inconsistent with the 
 regulations which may be assumed to be approved of by the Secretary of State, 
 but it has seldom been the custom to dispute them ; they have been generally 
 adopted, unless they are thought to be positively objectionable. 
 
 39. Earl of Rovinei/.'] Are you aware that about 20 years ago the Secretary 
 of State sent out a body of rules, and submitted them to all the counties for 
 thir consideration ? 
 
 That is the code to which 1 allude. 
 
 40. What year was that ? 
 
 I think it was in 1842 ; I came into office in 1843, and I think it was in the 
 year before that. 
 
 41. Earl
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 7 
 
 41. Earl Cathcart.'\ The result of what you have stated is, that the Secretary J. G^ Perry, Esq. 
 of State does not exercise sufficient control over the prisons? 
 
 Yes ; that is my opinion. 3 J March ^ 86 3. 
 
 42. Chairman.'] You stated, did you not, that in some prisons there were no 
 rules at all r 
 
 They are generally very small prisons, more deserving the name of lock-up 
 houses than of prisons, in which there are no rules that have been actually 
 certified by the Secretary of State. 
 
 43. Can you specify in what i)arts of your district those prisons are to which 
 you refer ? 
 
 Such prisons as Bradninch, Helston, Romney, Rye, Winchelsea, and other 
 small gaols of that kind. 
 
 44. Would you not feel it your duty in such a case where no rules existed 
 to report the fact to the Secretary of State ? 
 
 I have continually spoken of it in my reports to the gaolers or the visiting 
 justices, when thei'e are any ; but there are not always visiting justices to those 
 small prisons. 
 
 45. Marquess of Salisbury.] Many of the borough gaols have no justices at 
 aU? 
 
 Soine have none at all ; and some have not even any resident officers. 
 
 46. Lord President.] Is it not your habit to report to the Home Office any 
 case in which there seems to be illegality connected with the discipUne of a 
 prison? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 47. It is illegal not to have rules certified by the Secretary of State, is it 
 not r 
 
 Yes ; and I do report it ; but a report of illegal acts done in a gaol may not, 
 even with the best intentions on the part of the Secretary of State, produce 
 the reform that is required. I may mention as an illustration a county gaol 
 in which, during the first 14 years of my tenure of office, the law was habitually 
 violated every day by two prisoners being put, not only into one cell, but into 
 one bed. This was continually reported not only in my published reports, but 
 in special reports, and it had been similarly reported by my predecessor ; and 
 yet, as I say, 14 years of my time passed without my being able to effect any 
 change, although the Secretary of State sent down the reports, and sometimes 
 the magistrates went so far as to draw up plans for a new prison, and on one 
 occasion to get them certified ; but they were not acted upon during that long 
 period of time. 
 
 4S. You are referring to the case of Falmouth, which is mentioned in your 
 Report for 1861 ? 
 
 Not in my answer to the last question. 
 
 4q. The Home Secretary had no further power except calling the attention 
 of the magistrates to such illegal procedure ? 
 Practically he has no power to do more. 
 
 50. Karl Cathcart.] In your Report for the year 1802, with regard to the 
 large prison of Devonport, to which "were committed the last year 319 males 
 and 126 females, total 445," you state, " It is my duty again to call attention 
 to the fact that no code of rules has ever been forwarded to the Secretary of 
 State for his certificate as fit to be enforced in this prison." This would appear 
 to apply to a large prison? 
 
 That is a large prison. 
 
 51. It is clear that the law has not been carried out in that case ? 
 It has not. 
 
 j-f'X. W hat is the duty of the Inspector under such circumstances as that r 
 To report it, as I have reported it. 
 
 (37.1.) A 4 53- And
 
 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ,/. (;. Perry, Esq. .53. And then no notice is taken of your report? 
 Often none. » 
 
 ad March 1863. 
 
 54. Then, are the Committee to infer that, so far as inspection goes, the 
 inspection leads to no practical result r 
 
 It has generally led to \evy beneficial i-esults ; but in many instances, I am 
 sorry to say, that the remonstrances of the Secretary of State have not produced 
 any effect. 
 
 55. And here is a large prison carried on apparently without any published 
 rules at all, and the report of the inspecting officer on the unsatisfactory con- 
 dition of the prison has not been attended to in such a case : is it not your duty 
 to urge the matter more forcibly in your report to the Secretary of State, and 
 would it not be your duty to write a special letter calling the matter to his 
 attention more prominently ? 
 
 In the case of Devonport the rules of the Secretary of State are acted upon, 
 that is to say, of that code which was sent down, but they have never been 
 specially certified for that prison. 
 
 56. They are not legal rules till they are certified, are they r 
 They are not. 
 
 57. It is a mere matter of form ? 
 
 Just so. A great many of them are legal rules, because they are e.\:tracted 
 from Acts of Parliament. 
 
 58. But the real rules are, in fact, the Acts of Parliament; the Act of the 
 4th of George the Fourth is the foundation of a great many rules, is it not : 
 
 Yes ; a great many of them. 
 
 5y. Dul^e of MciTlborough .'] In such a case as has just been mentioned to 
 you by the noble Lord, where the prison authorities neglect to send up the rules, 
 does not the Act empower the Secretary of State to furnish rules that are 
 to be acted upon ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 60. Has that been done in this case of Devonport ? 
 No ; it has not. 
 
 6 I . I see that the sixth section of 5 & 6 Will. 4, c. 38, states : " That in 
 case of any clerk of the peace, clerk of gaol sessions, or chief magistrate of 
 any citv, town, borough, port, or liberty, neglecting or omitting to transmit to 
 one of his Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State, copies of the rules or regu- 
 lations in force for tlie government of any prison, which he is required by this 
 Act to transmit, it shall be lawful for one of his Majesty's Principal Secretaries 
 of State, after the 1st day of December in every year, to certify what rules 
 and regulations he deems necessary for the government of such prison ;" is 
 there any difficulty in doing that r 
 
 I believe that has never been done in any case. 
 
 62. liut there is clearly, by that Act, a power in the Secretai'v of State to 
 send down rules for the guidance of the prison i 
 
 There is. 
 
 63. Is it obligatory, then, upon the prison authorities to act upon such rules 
 after they have received them ? 
 
 It is. 
 
 64. Marquess of Salisbnn/.] They have the power to alter them afterwards, 
 have they not r 
 
 They have the power to suggest alterations, just as they would have done if 
 they had had a permanent code before. 
 
 65. Thev are not final ? 
 
 No ; in lio case are they final, because magistrates in quarter sesvsions may 
 propose alterations in them. 
 
 'G6. In
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 9 
 
 66. In the same manner as if they had gone in a more formal way, and had J. G. Perry, Bsqt 
 had new rules imposed upon them by the Secretary of State ? , „ — : -^ 
 
 67. Duke of Afarlborough-I Any alterations must receive the subsequent 
 sanction of the Secretary of State, must they not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 68. Earl of Malmeshury.'] In the case suggested by the noble Duke, if the 
 Secretary of State sends down rules, in default of rules being sent up by the 
 justices, what is the penalty if those rules are not followed ? 
 
 There are no penalties connected with that at all. The Act of Parliament 
 prescribes no penalties. 
 
 6g. Then, in point of fact, the power of the Secretary of State is null ? 
 
 It is null. All that the Secretary of State could do would be to institute a 
 prosecution for a misdemeanor for disobeying the Act of Parliament ; but that 
 has never been done, nor is it likely to be done. The Secretary of State should, 
 in my opinion, have the direct power to impose rules. 
 
 70. Earl Cathcart.] Are you aware that Plymouth prison, which is also a 
 large prison, has no rules at all ? 
 
 It is in exactly the same position as Devonport in that respect. They act 
 upon those regulations. 
 
 7 1 . But they are not legal ? 
 
 They are not certified for the prison. 
 
 72. Chairman.'] Have you made representations to the Secretary of State, both 
 with regard to Devonport and Plymouth, on this subject previous to that report ? 
 
 I cannot remember now. 
 
 73. Is this the first time that you have called attention to it ? 
 
 I am unable to answer that question in a moment without referring back 
 to old reports. 
 
 74. Duke of Marlborough.'] With reference to the question, how far the 
 statute is obligatory on the prison authorities to act vipon the rules furnished 
 by the Secretary of State, do you not consider that the latter portion of this 
 section whicli has been read is obligatory upon them in that sense, " and the 
 rules and regulations so certified by such Secretary of State shall thenceforth 
 be binding upon sheriffs and all other persons, and shall be the only rules in 
 force for the government of such prison'"? 
 
 Undoubtedly the Secretary of State has the legal right to impose rules, but 
 I say that practically, if the rules are not obeyed, there is no penalty for not 
 obeying them. 
 
 75. Is not the infraction of an Act of Parliament punishable at common law 
 as a misdemeanor ? 
 
 It is so, as I have just mentioned, but that process has never been adopted, 
 even in much stronger cases than that to wliich your Grace alludes. 
 
 76. With reference to the reports which I understand you to say are made, 
 have the terms of this Act been strictly obeyed as regards the reports which 
 are required to be furnished. I see by the Act that the inspector is required 
 to furnish a separate and distinct report in writing of the state of every gaol, 
 bridewell, house of correction, penitentiary, prison, or other place of con- 
 finement visited by him, and that he shall transmit the same to one of His 
 Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State on the first day of February in each 
 year. Has that been practically observed ? 
 
 Not before the first day uf February in all cases ; they are sent to the press 
 before they are presented to the Secretary of State, and the printing occupies 
 some little time, and they are not presented until later in the Session. 
 
 77. Is it the case that a separate and distinct report of the state of every 
 gaol is made annually to the Secretary of State r 
 
 Of every gaol visited within the year. 
 
 78. Then you consider that the Act of ParUament merely refers to gaols 
 that are visited, and not to every gaol in existence within your district r 
 
 (37.1.) B No,
 
 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Esq. No, I think it does not refer to that ; the Act says that the prisons shall be 
 visited from time to time. 
 
 Sd March 1863. 
 
 79. Earl Cathcart.'] Is it not the custom to read the prison rules to prisoners 
 on admission ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 80. If there are no rules, how can those rules be read ? 
 
 The rules relative to prisoners are read in Devonport Prison, and in Plymouth 
 Prison, from the regulations of the Secretary of State, which they assume to be 
 their rules. 
 
 8 1 . Viscount Everslet/J] And are those rules legally binding ? 
 Only those which are supported by Acts of Parliament. 
 
 82. Only those rules in fact which are parts of Acts of Parliament ? 
 
 Just so ; every prison has those rules, and the officers must act under them. 
 
 83. As I understand you, every prison has its rules, which the visiting 
 magistrates have drawn up, and which have been approved of by the Secretary 
 of State ; but in the case of the Devonport Prison, they appear to have no rules, 
 but til at they govern themselves by a general code of rules, which have been 
 sent down by the Secretary of State ? 
 
 Many prisons have not rules of their own, but all are subject to Acts of 
 Parliament. 
 
 84. But those rules are only binding when they form parts of Acts of 
 Parliament ? 
 
 Just so. 
 
 85. Earl of RomncT/.'] There is a complete set of regulations in the 4th Geo. 4, 
 cap. 64, is there not ? 
 
 Yes, and all those are binding, whether any rules are certified or not. 
 
 86. But are there any rules with regard to the classification of prisoners, and 
 as to many of the smaller details ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 ^7. Lord Steward.'] With reference to an answer which you gave sometime 
 ago, you stated that there would be some inconvenience in requiring the 
 inspectors to visit their different districts alternately. Are you aware that that 
 has been the practice in Ireland ; that the country is divided into two districts, 
 visited alternately by two inspectors, and that that practice has been found to 
 work very well ? 
 
 The districts in England, including Scotland, are so much more extensive 
 than those in Ireland, that the difficulty would be greater. 
 
 88. That difficulty might be met, by increasing the number of inspectors, 
 might it not ? 
 
 Yes, of course. 
 
 89. If there were an additional number of inspectors, would you deem it 
 objectionable to require them to visit the districts alternately ? 
 
 1 think the present system is better, and that the inspectors become better 
 acquainted with the details of the prisons. 
 
 90. Do not you think that it would give the inspectors an opportunity of 
 comparing the practices, and mode of treatment, and the different details in 
 different prisons, and of selecting what was thought to be best in each ? 
 
 The inspectors do meet now and compare notes upon the difl'erent points 
 that may arise. 
 
 91. How often on an average do you visit each prison in your district in the 
 ordinary waj^ ? 
 
 Once in aljout a year or 15 months. There are some prisons which are 
 sometimes empty, or sometimes they have only one or two prisoners in 
 them. 
 
 92. Generally speaking, those small prisons require more frequent visitation 
 than large ones, do they not ? 
 
 Yes. I may mention that the average time of visit is within a year. Look- 
 ing
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. U 
 
 ing at the present time, I have visited every prison within the last year, except J. G. Perry, Esq. 
 about half a dozen, which 1 should have seen in the month of February, had — 
 
 it not been for my expectation of being called before this Committee. ^ ^^^ ^ ' ^' 
 
 93. What is the total number of prisons in your district ? 
 About 96. 
 
 94. Earl Cathcart.'\ You only report upon 40 prisons, what is the reason of 
 that ? 
 
 When the Report of 1862 was pubUshed, I had only a part of the district that 
 I have now. 
 
 95. If you have 90 prisons in your district, why is it tliat in your Report for 
 1862, you only report upon 40? 
 
 Because the greater part of the additional number were not in my district 
 when that Report was published. 
 
 96. How many prisons had you in your district at the time when this Raport 
 was published ? 
 
 About half that number. 
 
 97. Will you be kind enough to state what occurs in case of death-vacancies, 
 or in case of the sickness of inspectors ; there is a vacancy at this moment in 
 the northern district, how is the work done in that district ? 
 
 There is no vacancy at this moment. 
 
 98. Has not the inspector of the northern district lately died? 
 Sir John Kincaid died after he had resigned his office. 
 
 99. In case of sickness, what would be done ? 
 
 Happily, no such instance has arisen, but we should attend for each other in 
 any special or urgent business. 
 
 100. Has any report been pubhshed for the northern district for 1862 ? 
 
 A very short one indeed, for Sir John Kincaid was almost dying when he 
 resigned. 
 
 101 . And there is no satisfactory report concerning the northern prisons for 
 1862? 
 
 No. 
 
 102. Chair ma?/.'] Was there any report for 1861 for the northern district? 
 
 I do not recollect exactly ; but I think Sir John Kincaid's illness, even then, 
 prevented his publishing the northern report ; he merely complied with the 
 forms. I'or two years there was no report, I think, from Scotland. 
 
 103. Earl Cathcart.'] With regard to sending a report to the quarter sessions, 
 do not you think it would be exceedingly satisfactory and useful, if the Crown 
 inspector sent in a report to the next quarter sessions immediately after his 
 last inspection ; and that he should send to the chairman of the visiting jus- 
 tices, appended to his report, a copy of the report which he had forwarded to 
 the Secretary of State r 
 
 Under the present instructions it would not be possible to do so. 
 
 104. Assuming that the instructions were altered, do not you think it would 
 have a salutary effect if, in the quarter sessions, a copy of the report of the 
 Crown inspector were read r 
 
 I think it would be better sent by the Secretary of State. 
 
 105. Do not you think it desirable that the Secretary of State, after the 
 Crown Inspector has made his report, should, as soon as possible, send down a 
 copy of that report which he has received from the Crown Inspector? 
 
 That is the course adopted now, when there is any special matter to be reported. 
 
 106. Are you aware that this is now done in the case of the Crown Inspector 
 of Police ? 
 
 I am not aware that that is the practice. 
 
 107. Chairman.'] You stated, did you not, that there were at present 96 
 prisons within your district? 
 
 About 96, but that includes many very small ones. 
 
 (37. 1.) B 2 108. Can
 
 reign ? 
 
 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G- Perry, Esq. loS. Can you specify them, so far as the number is concerned, in different 
 
 classes — Borough prisons, County prisons, Liberty prisons, if there are such, 
 
 gd March 186 3. and so on? 
 
 Fifty-four County prisons, forty Borough prisons, and two Liberty prisons. 
 
 1 09. Has any amalgamation of the borough and county gaols taken place 
 within your district lately ? 
 
 There has scarcely been an instance of it. 
 
 1 1 0. There is power given to amalgamate, is there not, under an Act of this 
 
 Yes, under the Act for estabhshing district prisons. 
 
 in. Have you known of no instance in which that amalgamation has taken 
 place ? 
 
 There are many instances, of course, iii which the Boroughs have sent their 
 prisoners to the county gaol by contract ; but I do not recollect any instance 
 in which a county gaol has been amalgamated with a borough gaol. 
 
 112. In your opinion would it be desirable that some of the smaller gaols 
 should be amalgamated with the county gaols r 
 
 Yes, it would, and I have very often recommended it. There are still several 
 gaols which it is highly improper should continue, such for instance as one of those 
 which I have mentioned just now, that of Bradninch, where they have sometimes 
 only a single prisoner for months together, and where there is no resident 
 officer in the gaol at all ; the man who looks after the prisoners living at a 
 distance from the prison. And the same is the case in some other gaols. They 
 should send all their prisoners to the county gaols. 
 
 1 13. Would it not be an advantage in an economical, as well as an effective 
 point of view, if that amalgamation were carried out ? 
 
 It would, and I have often recommended it upon those grounds. 
 
 114. Duke oi 3I(irlborough.] Would you feel yourself at liberty to state to 
 the Committee any other case in your district where the evils of the existing 
 borough gaol are as glaring as in the case of Falmouth ? 
 
 I do not think that I could mention any instance equal to that, because 
 Falmouth is a prison that receives sometimes a very large number of 
 prisoners, and I have occasionally known 24 male prisoners in Falmouth 
 gaol, when there have been only four beds in the gaol — they lie two or 
 three in a bed, and the rest on the ground by the side of the bed. I have 
 reported that specially to the Secretary of State, and on one occasion, upon my 
 recommendation, a number of prisoners were pardoned, in order to get them 
 out of the gaol. 
 
 115. Earl CfitJicart.] Could you not mention a gaol at Poole, where the 
 dinner comes in from a neighbouring inn ? 
 
 Yes ; but the number of prisoners there is so small, that the accommodation 
 is sufficient. 
 
 116. The dinner is provided at 5 s. 6 d. per head per week from the inn, is 
 it not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 117. You have one prison where there are bedsteads which are not used, and 
 where the prisoners sle(;p on the floor, where is that ? 
 
 That is at St. Alban's. 
 
 118. Can nothing be done at St. Alban's to improve that state of things? 
 I have repeatedly represented it, and the answer is, that they have it in 
 
 contemplation to build another prison, or to unite the two prisons of Hertford 
 and St. Alban's, and upon that score it has been postponed/rom year to year. 
 
 119. Has the Secretary of State no power in such a case as that where there 
 are bedsteads, and they are not used, but the men and women sleep upon the 
 floor ? 
 
 The reason assigned for their not using the bedsteads upon one occasion was, 
 that they were afraid of the prisoners breaking tliein up, and making use of them 
 as weapons against their officers, and for the puri)ose of effecting their escape. 
 
 120. Is
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 13 
 
 120. Is it a state of affairs which ought to exist in the nineteenth century, in J. G. Perry, Esq. 
 England, that the authorities are not able to provide the prisoners with bed- Mairoh'186':!. 
 
 steads, because they are afraid of their using them as weapons of offence against . 
 
 their officers ? * 
 
 Certainly not. 
 
 121. Lord [Vodcfionse.~\ Referiing to your report upon Falmouth gaol, I see 
 that you recommend that the prisoners should be sent to the county prison of 
 Bodmin where you say there is sufficient accommodation for them ; and in the 
 report which immediately precedes that, you observe that Bodmin is one of the 
 best conducted establishments of the kind in the kingdom ; do you not think 
 that the remedy for the evils of many of those small prisons in boroughs would 
 be to give power to the Secretary of State, where there is su Hi cient accommoda- 
 tion in the county prison, to require that the prisoners should be sent to the 
 county prison ? 
 
 Certainly ; I have very often recommended that, and in the case of Falmouth 
 I have done so over and over again. The Town Council of Falmouth do now send 
 a great many of their prisoners to Bodmin ; but a difficulty has arisen f)n account 
 of there being a great arrear of payment by the borough authorities to the 
 county magistrates, and it was in contemplation to stop the admission of the 
 borough prisoners in consequence ; but I believe that the magistrates have 
 determined not to do so, partly, I think, upon my recommendation, and 
 the3^ are still receiving them. 
 
 122. That might easily be met, might it not, by giving the county some 
 summary power of recovering the arrears ? 
 
 I suppose it might be met by an action at law. 
 
 123. Duke of Marlhorongh.'] It might be treated as a common debt, might 
 it not ? 
 
 I presume so. 
 
 1 2A. Earl Cathcart.] Is not one of the worst prisons in England close to 
 where we are now sitting, namely, the House of Correction forthe county of 
 Middlesex, at Coldbath-fields ? 
 
 It is a very bad prison, and, considering its size, it may be said to be the 
 worst in Great Britain, because the prisoners are very numerous and in close 
 association, although under supervision. 
 
 1 25. Chairman.'] The majority of the prisons within your district are assumed 
 to be upon the separate system, are they not ? 
 
 Not numerically, the majority ; but the majority of the larger prisons are upon 
 the separate system ; all the prisons that have been rebuilt or materially 
 altered within the last 18 or 20 years are upon the separate system. 
 
 126. Would you state to the Committee the proper construction of the cells 
 in order to give effect to the separate system as intimated in the Act of Par- 
 liament ? 
 
 They are required to be sufficiently ventilated, warmed, and lighted, and pro- 
 vided with all the appliances necessary for the system ; but the main points are 
 that they should be sufficiently large, well ventilated, lighted, and warmed. 
 
 127. Pentonville, I think, has been taken, has it not, as the general 
 standard ? 
 
 Generally so, not invariably. In some prisons the cells have been made 
 somewhat smaller than those at Pentonville. 
 
 128. Earl of Romney.'] What are the cubical contents that are required for a 
 man's cell? 
 
 That would depend very much upon the efficiency of the ventilation. A cell 
 may be as well ventilated, and as habitable, wliich contains 800 cubic feet, as 
 another case which contains 1,000 cubic feet. 
 
 1 29. But let us take an ordinary cell, without any special ventilation, what 
 would be the cubical contents ? 
 
 Those cells would not be fit for the continual confinement of prisoners. I 
 
 l^/*- '•) B 3 understand
 
 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J.G. Perry, Esq. understand your Lordship's question to apply to cells certified for separate con- 
 finement. 
 
 3(1 aiarch 1863. 
 
 130. There is a certain quantity, I believe, certified to be properly qualified 
 for males, and a certain quantity for females, with ordinary ventilation r 
 
 Not with ordinary ventilation ; I am not aware of that ; I have never 
 certified any cells that were not artificially warmed and lighted. 
 
 131. Chairman.'] What is the recognised standard of Pentonville ; how many 
 cubic feet of air is a prisoner allowed there ? 
 
 It is easily calculated ; it is 13 feet 6 inches long, by 7 feet wide and 9 feet 
 high. I think that those are the dimensions of the separate cells at Penton- 
 ville. 
 
 132. Marquess of Sali.sbunj.] Is that cubic measiu*e ? 
 
 The cubical contents may be calculated from those data ; they are, pro- 
 bably, given in the Pentonville Reports. 
 
 133. Cliairman.'] What is the minimum number of cubic feet of air in any 
 cell which )'ou would be disposed to certify ? 
 
 I liave certified, under some circumstances, cells which contained rather less 
 than 800 cubic feet. 
 
 1 34. What do you look upon as the maximum ? 
 
 There would be no objection to any size, except that they take up more 
 room. 
 
 13.5. What is the largest cell within your district ? 
 
 The largest certified cells are, I think, in Shrewsbury Gaol ; they consist of 
 old cells thrown two into one, by which a very much larger extent is obtained 
 than would have been the case had the prison been built afresh. I do not 
 remember exactly the measurement ; my old reports would state that. 
 
 136. Is there ventilation in every cell ? 
 Yes. 
 
 137. By what means is the ventilation generally secured; is it by the 
 window or through the door ? 
 
 By flues. 
 
 138. There are cells, are there not, where the ventilation is effected by the 
 window ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1 39. And the prisoner himself has the power of regulating that ventilation ? 
 Yes, but those are not certified for separate confinement, so far as my know- 
 ledge extends. 
 
 140. Is not that the case in Winchester? 
 
 In Winchester Gaol the cells are ventilated by flues, and they have also the 
 means of opening the window, but I should say that the power of opening the 
 window is directly subversive of the principle upon which they are ventilated ; 
 for if air be admitted from the outside, the same quantity of air must be 
 arrested in its passage through the flues, as only a certain amount can come 
 into tlie cell within a given time ; just so much as has been extracted within that 
 time. It you admit air from the outside you stop exactly the same amount of 
 air from coming in through the flues, and though in the summer time that 
 would make no difference, yet in the winter it would make a material difference, 
 because, when the thermometer is below the freezing point, it would be very 
 difficult to keep up the temperature of the cell if you ventilated it by letting in 
 air from the outside. 
 
 141. Would you object to the prisoners themselves having the power of 
 opening and closing the windows ? 
 
 I believe that that is generally injurious to the ventilation. 
 
 142. Has it any other objections ? 
 
 Yes ; one objection may be stated, namely, that it would admit of voices 
 being heard on the outside. 
 
 143. Would
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 15 
 
 143. Would it not probably facilitate communication between the prisoners? J- G Peny, Esq 
 Yes, with prisoners from the outside, but not from cell to cell. , ^ ~T~ „„ 
 
 ] 44. And would not that be a very great disadvantage in a disciplinary point 
 
 of view ? 
 
 It would. For instance, if a cell overlooked the airing yard, and there were 
 a power of opening any aperture between the cell and the outside, the prisoner's 
 voice might be heard in the airing yard. 
 
 145. In all those gaols where the cells have been certified for use, and con- 
 sequently may be assumed to be on the new and improved principle, is there 
 any provision made for artificially warming them ? 
 
 Certified cells, so far as my own experience goes, have always been 
 warmed and ventilated. There has always been an apparatus for warming and 
 ventilating them before the certificate has been given. 
 
 1 46. What has been the general temperature of the cells ? 
 
 It is difficult for me to speak, from occasional visits, as to what has been the 
 general temperature. In some prisons they keep a record of the thermometer 
 in two or three cells ; and if my instructions are obeyed, they would never raise 
 the temperature of the cell above 60 degrees, or, perhaps, scarcely so high as 
 that ; but I dare say that, by mismanagement of the flues, they may occasion- 
 ally be warmer than that, or occasionally not so warm. 
 
 147. ]\Iarquess of Salis/nay.] What is the lowest temperature? 
 
 In the night there would be no objection to its going down much below 50° ; 
 but if a man is to sit still in a cell he will be cold if the temperature is 50° in 
 the day-time. 
 
 148. Earl Cafhcart.] When prisons are ventilated by means of flues, and 
 most prisons are ventilated by means of flues, the ventilation is dependent, is it 
 not, upon a fire being lighted somewhat either above or below ? 
 
 It is so. 
 
 149. Has it not so happened in your own experience, and do not you mention 
 in your report that sometimes they forget to hght this fire, and consequently 
 the ventilation is defective ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 150. Have not you known a prison become almost unbearable from the want 
 of ventilation, because they have not lighted the fire ? 
 
 Yes, I have known that happen, but not very often. 
 
 151. You do not think that that occurs frequently ? 
 
 No ; in most prisons they have a resident engineer, and it is regularly done ; 
 but it does occur sometimes ; I have spoken strongly about it when I have 
 found it to take place. 
 
 152. Would it not in that case be safer to trust to the external air than to 
 have to trust to the air flues ? 
 
 For the reason I mentioned just now, the air from the outside would not 
 answer the purpose in the winter season. 
 
 153. It sometimes happens that the ventilating apparatus is out of order, and 
 consequently the whole ventilation of the gaol is most ineffective, is it not ? 
 
 It can scarcely be said to be entirely out of order ; but the ventilation is 
 languid from the want of a current in the extracting shaft. 
 
 1 54. Do you know from experience any instance of the fire for the extract- 
 ing flue in the ventilating apparatus not having been lighted at all, and conse- 
 quently that the flues have not acted ? 
 
 But even then if there is a fire below there is a certain amount of ventilation. 
 
 155. But supposing that in the summer time when there is no fire below, they 
 should neglect in the exhausting shaft to light the fire, the whole ventilation of 
 the prison must be entirely defective ? 
 
 It would not be entirely stopped, but would be rendered much more 
 languid. 
 
 1 56. And consequently to a great extent unwholesome ? 
 
 Yes ; but there would always be a certain amount of ventilation even with- 
 (37. 1.) B 4 out
 
 16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry , Esq. out additional warmth in tlie extracting shaft, because upon the principle of 
 3d March 1863. ^^^^ reversed syphon, the long chimney will always have' a current up it, as 
 , " the long leg of the syphon. 
 
 157. For women and children the ordinary cells are too small, and the air is 
 very offensive, is it not, in a cell where a woman and child are confined 
 together ? 
 
 That is not altogether from the want of air, but it is from the child not 
 being so cleanly as it ought to be. 
 
 1 58. In such cases the cells ought to be rather larger, ought they not ? 
 
 I think the size that I have mentioned is sufficiently lar2,e for a woman and 
 child. 
 
 1*59. I believe also that iu almost all the separate cells there are water- 
 closets, are there not ? 
 There are generally. 
 
 160. Have you not known sometimes very serious objections arise both with 
 regard to cleanliness and with regard to the health of the pi'isoners themselves 
 from the use of those waterclosets ? 
 
 In the case of frost breaking the pipes I have known that ; and in one 
 instance many years ago, when the mode of ventilation was much less under- 
 stood than it is now, a fever broke out in a prison in consequence of those 
 waterclosets, but then it arose, not from having waterclosets in the cells, 
 but from conducting the soil from the watercloset into a cesspool, which 
 was made air-tight under the idea of rendering it less offensive, so that the 
 gases could not escape from tlie cesspool at all, except through the cells, and 
 they came up again. In that case the mischief was remedied as soon as the 
 cesspool was set right. 
 
 161. Earl of Z)w//e7/.] They are not waterclosets in the common acceptation 
 of the term, are they ? 
 
 Yes, they are. 
 
 162. "N^'ith a closing pipe '.' 
 
 Yes, with a closing pipe, or with a water valve at least. 
 
 163. In some of the ordinary waterclosets will the valve close again? 
 
 No ; 1 think they are constructed in general in a curve, so that there may 
 be always some water at the bottom of the curved portion, making what is 
 technically called the water valve. 
 
 1 64. Chairman.'] Are you not aware that in very many gaols there is a very 
 strong effluvium in some of the cells, in consequence of the waterclosets r 
 
 I have never perceived it except now and then, when the extraction aper- 
 tures were closed by the collection of flue behind them. In Hereford Gaol 
 I noticed that very badly, and I had the perforated plates taken out, and a 
 thick mass of flue Avas found behind each composed of portions of cotton or 
 wool, or anything that hap])ened to have been manipulated within the cell, 
 and formed a complete crust behind the perforated plates ; but since that time 
 I have constantly spoken about having them taking down and examined. I 
 remember that Reading was one of the instances in which that occurred. I 
 have not observed the same thing to have occurred again. 
 
 165. Wherever that is the case, it would go a long way, would it not, to 
 explain the paleness and even loss of weight and general iU health on the part 
 of tlie prisoners .' 
 
 If the ventilation were bad, certainly. 
 
 ifio. That would be the case, would it not, if there was an effluvium r 
 In many instances the effluvium is from the bodies of the prisoners them- 
 selves. It is known to medical men, that different persons differ very much 
 indeed in the odour of tlieir perspirations. 
 
 167. I think you misunderstood my question. I say that wherever this 
 effluvium exists from these waterclosets. would it not go a long way to ex])lain 
 the ill health of the prisoners? 
 
 It would. 
 
 168. Do
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 17 
 
 i6S. Do you look upon the existence of these water-closets in the cells as J. G- Perri/, fijjt 
 absolutely essential to the separate system ? March 1863. 
 
 The reason that tliey have been adopted was to prevent the necessity of ^ " ' 
 
 taking the prisoners continually out of their cells. People tired of confinement 
 in their cells would be constantly affecting to require removal for the sake of 
 going to the water-closet ; and in order to prevent that continual necessity, and 
 the time of the officers being occupied, the water-closets were put into all the 
 cells. 
 
 1 69. That has been abandoned, I think, in one or two cases ? 
 I only know of one instance, and that is Gloucester. 
 
 1 70. Was not the system abandoned in Derby ? 
 I do not know the Derby prison. 
 
 171. Duke oi Marlborough.] ^Vllat have they substituted in Gloucester? 
 The prisoners are taken out to a general water-closet. 
 
 172. Earl oi Dudley.'] You were saying that the ordinary ventilation of the 
 cell would be interfered with by an open window from above. Is not the cell 
 all the healthier for that cold air being let in during a certain number of hours 
 per day ? 
 
 During the summer it is very desirable, but in the winter, when the ther- 
 mometer is low, it would be impossible to keep the temperature of the cell up 
 to a habitable point if the air were admitted from the outside directly. 
 
 173. That would bring down the temperature, but as soon as that window 
 was closed again the air that is passing in from below would very soon bring 
 the cell up to its temperature ? 
 
 It would ; but if the prisoner remained in the cell all day, as they do with 
 the exception of an hour or two for exercise, he would be very much chilled if 
 the opening of the window were maintained long in winter time. 
 
 174. Is there not an advantage, even in winter, in having perfectly pure and 
 fresh air let into the cell for a short time, because it is vitiated air which you 
 let in by the mode of ventilation which you use ? 
 
 A great deal of care is taken to prevent the air being vitiated ; it is always 
 brought down from an elevation by a pipe which is carefully kept clean, and 
 the air goes into chambers where it is warmed . 
 
 175. It passes over heated plates to begin with, does it not? 
 
 No ; it passes over hot-water pipes, not pipes heated by hot air, which might 
 be raised too high in temperature, but by hot water, and they never become so 
 warm as to vitiate the air. 
 
 176. But you do not call that perfectly pure air, when it has been passed 
 over anything and warmed, and is then brought into the cell? 
 
 Chemically it is quite pure. 
 
 177. Lord JVodehouse.] Do you think that there is any great evil to be appre- 
 hended from there being no water-closets in the cells, and their being simply 
 provided with a pail ? 
 
 That would be very objectionable ; it is very offensive, indeed. 
 
 178. Earl of Dudley.] You must have the jailor there constantly to remove it ? 
 "\'es. In the morning those i)ails are carried out and emptied, and then it 
 
 does not often happen that they are used afterwards through the day ; but 
 during the time that they remain unemptied, I should conceive that there must 
 be very much more danger of the air being foul than from water-closets. 
 
 i7q. Earl Cathcarl.] Are you aware that they make a sort of apparatus with 
 a cover, that tits close, and with a water valve in the cover ? 
 Yes. 
 
 iSo. In your district are there not a great many prisons and a gi'eat many 
 cells where there are no water-closets at all, but merely these pans are used ? 
 Yes ; there are in the old fashioned cells- 
 
 (37.1.) C 181. Lord
 
 18 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Esq. i8i. Lord TVodelwuse.'] And are not some of those cells certified ? 
 
 „ No ; not any in my district, I think. 
 
 3d March 1863. ^ J J > 
 
 182. With regard to the warming of the cells, have you had any cells certified 
 
 in your district which are warmed by means of gas ? 
 No; not any. 
 
 183. Chairman.] Are the majority of the cells which are certified lighted 
 with gas ? 
 
 The majority are, but not all. 
 
 1 84. Is there any uniform rule with regard to the duration of the time for 
 which the gas should be turned on ? 
 
 In the best regulated prisons it is turned on at dusk, and put out at about 
 nine o'clock, I think ; but in some prisons there is no light at all, ft-om 
 the time that the prisoners are 'locked up till they get up in the morning, 
 and I have constantly complained of the prisoners being shut up for 16 hours 
 in winter without any light, as leading to slothful habits and even worse 
 consequences. 
 
 185. Do not you conceive that to be a very grave evil indeed ? 
 Very much so indeed, and I have always remonstrated against it. 
 
 186. What is the duration of sleep which is supposed to be allowed in those 
 prisons where the prisoners are shut up for 16 hours in the dark ? 
 
 There is no control over them in that respect ; they may sleep for the 
 16 hours. 
 
 187. Are the beds allowed to be taken down at dusk ? 
 
 I think they are at six o'clock ; at any rate they are taken down after supper. 
 
 188. So that it is optional to a prisoner to go and undress, and go to bed at 
 six o'clock ; and he would not be disturbed until six or eight the following 
 morning ? 
 
 Yes, in many instances that is so. 
 
 189. Earl Cathcart.] Do not you mention in your report, that in one 
 instance they may go to bed at four o'clock ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1 90. And that they may lie in bed until seven the next morning ? 
 Y'es. 
 
 191. Earl of Dudley.'] They would have no light ? 
 
 No. 
 
 ] 92. Earl of Romne}!.] Do you think that the prisoners like that ? 
 I do not think they do ; they would rather be employed in any way. 
 
 193. In fact, it is a punishment to them ? 
 
 Yes ; they cannot sleep all that time ; and I have known prisoners complain 
 
 of it. 
 
 1 94. Chainnan.] If instruction is to be imparted to the prisoners at all, by 
 means of schoolmasters, is not the evening one of the best times at which that 
 may be imparted r 
 
 Certainly it is. 
 
 IQ5. Duke of Marlborough.] Does this take place in associated prisons? 
 Sometimes. 
 
 1 96. Is that regvdation with regard to going to bed so early in force in any 
 case where they sleep in one room ? 
 
 There are very few prisons now in which they sleep in one room. With the 
 exception of Coldbath Fields Prison and that of St. Albans, I can scarcely 
 name any, I do not remember one county prison in which they sleep in one 
 room, except when the cells are over filled. 
 
 1 97. Earl of Dudlry.] In the case of Coldbath Fields, is there a light burning 
 all night ? 
 
 Yes, and there are officers watching ; but it is not so at St. Albans. 
 
 198. Earl
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 19 
 
 198. Earl Cathcart.'] Are the prisoners packed so close together at night, J.G.Perry, Esq. 
 that one can scarcely pass between them ? 
 
 Ygg 3d March 1P63. 
 
 log. If a man wanted to get out at night, from any cause, how is that 
 arranged for ? 
 
 He climbs over his sleeping fellow prisoners ; and at the present time there 
 are rooms in which the beds are placed upon the floor so close together, that 
 the floor is not visible between them. 
 
 200. If a man wants to pass out, in case of illness during the night, for the 
 purposes of nature, he is obliged to crawl over his sleeping fellow prisoners ? 
 
 He is. 
 
 201. ¥i^x\ oi Malmeshury .'\ Have you found that the prisoners feel a strong 
 repulsion to being in the dark so many hours? 
 
 Some prisoners have complained to me of it. 
 
 202. Do you find that generally felt as a very severe punishment? 
 
 No, I tliink that prisoners would generally take it as a part of their lot, and 
 would lie down and sleep as much as they could. 
 
 203. But it is, in fact, an aggravation of their punishment? 
 The more inteUigent would think so. 
 
 204. Looking at it as a punishment, is it deleterious to their health ? 
 
 I think it is productive of slothful habits ; a man could scarcely follow that 
 practice for many months, and go out as active and alert and disposed for early 
 rising as he was before. 
 
 205. Would not it rather have a contrary efi"ect ; after having been pvmished 
 by 16 hours of darkness, would not a man be very glad to be relieved from that 
 peculiarity incidental to prisons ? 
 
 I think that would depend very much upon the constitution of his mind ; I 
 think the general run of prisoners would probably feel it as an indulgence to 
 have nothing to do ; the more stupid class would. 
 
 206. I am speaking of their remaining in darkness? 
 
 If they have light in tiieir cells they would probably have work to do. 
 
 207. Earl oi Dudley.^ Are not nine-tenths of the men found in gaols exactly 
 of that sort that you speak of, who would be perfectly content if they were 24 
 hours in darkness so long as they had food ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 20S. Duke oi 3Iurlhorovgh.'] Is not this a matter which would be regulated 
 by the rules of the prison ? 
 
 There are no rules in general bearing upon that point. 
 
 209. It would be within the power of the Secretaiy of State to require the 
 adoptiim of a rule regulating the hours of rest, would it not ? 
 
 No doubt he might insert that rule as he might any other, when the rules 
 are sent up annually ; but it would be nugatory, unless the cells were lighted 
 in winter. 
 
 210. Do you conceive that the same difficulty exists with regard to the inser- 
 tion of that rule, as you stated in answer to a former question, as regards the 
 adoption of any rules proposed by the Secretary of State ; that is to say, you 
 conceive that there is no power which actually enables the Secretary of State 
 to enforce rules of his own selection. 
 
 No, there is no penalty for the non-reception of them. 
 
 211. Karl of Rom)ie{j.] But in those gaols the rule is, that the prisoners shall 
 be locked up at a certain time ? 
 
 It is not always a rule certified, but a bye-law, a sub-rule as I may call it. 
 
 212. Earl of Dudley. "\ But it holds good in that prison ? 
 Yes. 
 
 2 1 3. Earl of Eomiicy.'] It is not a rule which has been adopted by the Quar- 
 ter Sessions and sanctioned by the Secretary of State ? 
 
 (37. 1.) c 2 I think-
 
 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 i/, G. Perry, Esq. \ think in many instances it has not been adopted by the Quarter Sessions 
 'd March i86i ^^^ ^^^ Secretary of State, but by the Visiting Justices. 
 
 214. But there are cases in which it is just as much a rule that they shall be 
 
 locked up at that particular hour, as it is the rule that the uien shall not be put 
 into the same cells with the women ? 
 
 That may be so ; I am not objecting to locking them up at that hour, but to 
 their being locked up in darkness. 
 
 215. Of course that depends entirely on what their object is in imprison- 
 ment ; if you suppose that the prisoners are always to be impioving their 
 minds, of course the darkness is against their doing so ; but as a matter of 
 punishment a man dislikes darkness, and he is more punished by being kept in 
 darkness than if he was able to read an amusing book "1 
 
 I suppose that a small portion of them would dislike it very much indeed ; 
 that is to say, the more intelligent of them ; but the general mass of them would 
 be perfectly indifferent, even if they did not like it. 
 
 216. With regard to those men who are sentenced to hard labour, and have 
 been working at the treadmill, I presume they would go to sleep r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 217. And they would sleep during the 12 hours? 
 
 Yes ; but it is a great deal longer than is requisite for their refreshment. 
 
 218. Chairmau.] Do you remember what the resolution of the House of 
 Commons was in 1850 on the subject of sleep ? 
 
 I do not. 
 
 a 19. Do you not remember that the maximum which was there laid down 
 was eight hours. 
 
 I do not remember it at this moment. 
 
 220. In vour opinion, is eight hours sleep sufficient for any prisoner r 
 It is. 
 
 221. Lord WodeJini/se.] Is there not this objection, looking upon darkness as 
 a punishment, that the amount of punishment inflicted upon a man would 
 depend upon the time of the year ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 222. Earl Cathcarf.l Are you aware that in some instances lately they litter 
 down beds on the floors of the workroom as soon as they have done work ? 
 
 I have known that done in one prison in this county, in Coldbath Fields^; 
 
 223. What is your opinion with regard to such an arrangement as that of 
 littering down beds upon the workroom floor r 
 
 I think it is a very bad arrangement, and I have objected to it, and it has been 
 discontinued. 
 
 224. Is it possible to make those workrooms clean, and ventilate them properly 
 before prisoners sleep in them ? 
 
 The windows are put open for some time while the prisoners go down to their 
 suuper, and therefore the air is changed, no doubt. 
 
 225. Do not you consider that the whole question with regard to beds and 
 bedding in prisons demands inquiry and consideration ? 
 
 The beds and bedding are generally very good. 
 
 226. Do you not think that hammocks are a very luxurious kind of bed in 
 themselves, and that they are unnecessarily soft and luxurious? 
 
 I do not think so. I do not think that the prisoners prefer them to beds ? 
 
 227. It is the opinion of some people, and you concur in that opinion, do you 
 not, that it is very desirable that the hammocks should be done away with, and 
 that planks should be made to fold down, and that a bed ])ut upon the planks 
 is not so soft as a hammock r 
 
 I think that a hammock is a very convenient arrangement on account of the 
 small sj)ace which it occupies in the day time, but I do not think it is regarded 
 
 by
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 21 
 
 "by the prisoners as a very desirable mode of sleeping. I think they would just ^' G. Perry, Esq. 
 
 as soon sleep upon a flat bed. ^^ March 1863. 
 
 228. Are you aware that in military prisons they take away the soldiers' bed- 
 
 ding, and when the soldier is obliged to be on duty once in three nights they do 
 
 the same ? 
 Yes. 
 
 229. Could that be applied in civil prisons ; do you think it would be desirable 
 to take away the soft part of the bed, and leave nothing but the planks ? 
 
 I do not think it would be desirable ; it would not contribute to health 
 to do so. 
 
 230. Marquess of /S'ff/ii/!';/?^/.] Would it do the reverse ? 
 Yes; it would, in nw opinion. 
 
 231. In what respects? 
 
 By keeping the men awake, and giving them had nights. 
 
 232. It seems that sometimes sheets are used, and sometimes not; do you 
 •consider it essential that sheets should be used for the purposes of cleanliness r 
 
 1 have invariably promoted the use of them for the purpose of cleanliness 
 and economy also. When sheets are not used the blankets wear out very fast, 
 partly by the friction of the feet, and partly by the frequent necessity of wasli- 
 ing them, because, unless they are washed almost as frequently as the sheets 
 when they are used without sheets, they would tend to propagate disease in the 
 prison, and therefore they require to be frequently washed ; and a blanket, 
 every time that it is washed, loses something of its tliickness, and it very soon 
 wears out, and as they are very much more costly than sheets, it is found to be 
 a great deal more economical to have sheets ; and wherever they have been 
 adopted, which they are now very generally, upon my recommendation, I have 
 been told afterwards that the saving has been very large on that account. 
 
 233. Duke of 3I(irlborough.] Would you think it better to give them proper 
 bedding, but to limit the number of hours during which prisoners should be 
 in bed ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 234. 'Would it be better than subjecting them to any hardships, such as Ipng 
 on boards, or anything of that kind ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 235. Oiairman-I Would you designate by the name of hardship the guard 
 beds which are used in the army, which are simply tressels with planks, and a 
 mattrass upon the top of the planks ? 
 
 ^Vhen they have not hammocks, tliey have wooden beds generally in prisons. 
 I do not speak of that as a hardship ; I think, in many uistances, the prisoners 
 Avould prefer that mode of sleeping. 
 
 23<). Then I understand that you do not object to the use of guard beds ? 
 1 have never seen them employed. 
 
 237. Would you object to them ? 
 
 In theory, I suppose they would be much the same as a wooden bedstead, 
 except that they are closer to the ground. There would be no advantage in 
 having them closer to the ground that I am aware of. 
 
 238. Earl Cathcart.'] Are you aware that in workhouses the vagrant wards 
 are fitted up witli a bed of that descrij)tion ; merely a sloping plank ? 
 
 I have not seen them, but I have heard that it is so. 
 
 239. Cliairman.l You have stated that the use of such beds would possibly 
 deprive prisoners of sleep ; but if they had hard labour for eight or ten hours in 
 the day, are you not of opinion that sleep would come fast enough, whether 
 they were in a guard bed or whether they were in a hammock. 
 
 I am not prepared to say ; I tliirik that there are a great many persons who 
 would pass very restless nights if they sle|)t upon a plank witliout any bedding, 
 and tliat those men, if that were repeated constantly, would have their health 
 impaired. 
 
 (37.1.) c 3 240. Earl
 
 22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Esq. 240. Earl Cathcart.'] I have received a letter from an intelligent governor of 
 
 a gaol, who suggests to me that hammocks are too comfortable and luxurious, 
 
 3d March 1863. ^^^ j^^ suggests, that instead of having slung hammocks, the bottom of the 
 bed should be of planks, with a coarse mattress on those planks ; but you do 
 not concur with him in the view that a hammock is a luxurious kind of bed ? 
 I do not think it is so regarded generally. 
 
 241. Earl of Romney.} Do you understand by lying on the plank, that the 
 planks should be without any bed between the man and the plank ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 242. IVIarquess of Sal/sbiirj/.] Did I not understand you to state, that you 
 think it is injurious to the health of a prisoner to sleep upon a plaok? 
 
 In those instances in which they would be kept awake by it, and which, I 
 think, would be the case frequently. 
 
 243. If they were not kept awake by it, you do not. think it would be 
 injurious ? 
 
 There are some persons who can sleep very well upon a bare plank. 
 
 244. Do vou think, if they were to sleep constantly on a bare plank, it would 
 injure their health, provided they got a sufficient amount of sleep ? 
 
 No, certainly not ; they must have sufficient clothing over them, of course, 
 but 1 think that there are a great number of persons who would not be able to 
 sleep so. For instance, there are old prisoners, who would be subject to 
 rheumatism, and who would suffer most grievously from such an arrangement. 
 Men in the army being generally in the prime of life, could bear that discipline 
 better than many prisoners, who come in with broken constitutions, and many 
 of them advanced in life, and subject to rheumatism and other diseases. 
 
 245. Lord Sleicai'd-I Your great difficulty is, that it either prevents their 
 sleeping, and so injures their health, or where it does not prevent their sleeping, 
 they iiet so accustomed to that mode of passing their life that it leaves no 
 painful recollection upon their mind ? 
 
 No, certainly not. 
 
 246. Duke of Alarlhoroiigh.'] Do you consider that the mere fact of a prisoner 
 being deprived of his liberiy and being placed in confinement, operates upon 
 him in such a way as to require a certain amount of comfort to be administered 
 to him in the prison, in order to sustain his health ; that is to say, comparing 
 his situation with the hardships to which a labouring man is subjected, with 
 regard to sleeping, do you consider that the confinement to which the prisoner 
 is subjected is of itself sufficient to require that he should be more comfortably 
 provided for than he would be under the ordinary conditions, either of a 
 soldier, or of a labourer who is at liberty and is performing his duty ? 
 
 No, I do not think so. 1 think, for the reasons I have just stated, that a 
 great many persons who come to prison, come in in a very infirm state of 
 health, and that tliey, on that acconnt, would hardly l)e abli' to bear the hard- 
 shi{)S which more robust people outside would be able to bear — and very few 
 labourers sleep upon boards, 1 imagine. 
 
 247. Do you imagine that the mere fact of the confinement itself creates a 
 drain upon the physical energies or constitution? 
 
 1 do, but I do not think that in a strong man that would be much increased 
 by his sleeping on a hard bed ; but there is no doubt that the depression of 
 mind wliich accompanies imprisonment requires that prisoners should be better 
 supported than they would require to be if they were outside. 
 
 24S. One of the eliief elements of support in sustaining the health of the 
 frame would be sleep, would it not ? 
 Yes. 
 
 240. Is it not the fact that if a prisoner's sleep were impaired frequently, 
 there would be an additional tax put upon his constitution from the fact of 
 his being in continement? 
 
 Certainlv- 
 
 2.30. Earl of Dudley.] If only eiyht hours were allowed for sleep in every 
 prison, you would have great difficulty, would you not, about the prison 
 
 arrangements.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 23 
 
 arrangements. Let us suppose that the prisoners went to bed at nine o'clock J. G. Perry, Esq. 
 
 at niarht, thev would have to rise at five in the mornins; ? 
 
 Yes 3d Marcli 1863. 
 
 ^^51. Then everybody in the prison would have to be on foot again by five in 
 the morning ? 
 Yes. 
 
 2.52. That is not the case now, at all, is it r 
 
 Generally speaking, they are up before six in most prisons ; if they were 
 only eight hours in bed you could hardly say that they had eight hours sleep ; 
 but the question was j)ut to me whether I thought more than eight hours 
 sleep was required. 
 
 253. As a matter of course, if a man turns in in the darkness, be it four or 
 be it six o'clock, the natural tendency is to sleep the whole of those hours that 
 have to be consumed before the gaoler comes, or anything is doing ? 
 
 Yes ; but he does not sleep the whole night ; he will probably sleep a short 
 time, and then lie awake a great deal, and then go to sleep again. 
 
 254. I understand you to say that you would recommend their having lights 
 up to a certain time, in order that they may be employed in something, or taught 
 something, and then go to bed after that employment ? 
 
 Yes ; and that would be the most convenient time for education. 
 
 255. You think that the time is so long that it tends to produce habits of 
 sloth ? 
 
 Y 
 
 es. 
 
 256. Do you also say that sleeping so much renders them luxui'ious in their 
 habits ? 
 Yes. 
 
 2,57. Earl Catlicart.~\ You mean to tell their Lordships that their being so 
 long in bed, and so ]ong shut up in that way, tends not only to slothful habits, 
 but to degrading and almost disgusting habits ? 
 
 Yes ; that is what I alluded to when I said just now, that it led even to 
 worse habits. 
 
 258. Lord irodehouse.'] \\\ fact, when you speak of eight hours, the arrange- 
 ment which you probably contemplate would be that the cells should be shut 
 up about nine o'clock, and that the prisoner should be on foot again about six 
 o'clock, leaving about half an hour for going to bed, and composing himself, 
 and half an hour in the morning for getting up and cleaning himself, and 
 leaving eight hours for sleep ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 259. I understand you to say that if a regulation of that kind were in force 
 in all prisons, and at the same time all the cells were properly hghted, then, as 
 regards the matter of sleep, the prisons would have all that you would 
 recommend ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 260. Duke of Marlborough.'] Do you think it desirable that uniformity of 
 practice should exist in ditlerent gaols as regards the matter of food and beds, 
 and bedding, and the hours of sleep ? 
 
 Yes, I think tliat would be very desirable. I do not think that there are any 
 circumstances affecting prisoners in different parts of the country which would 
 make them require more or less sleep. 
 
 261. Earl oiDudlaj.'] At all events in one district, such as yours, there would 
 be no such variation of temperature or other reasons why there should not be 
 one and the same rule ? 
 
 None whatever. I consider uniformity in that and other rules is most 
 desirable wherever it can be obtained. 
 
 262. Chairman.'] In the majority of certified cells what is the nature of the 
 floor, is it paved or of wood ? 
 
 (3;. 1.) c 4 It
 
 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Esq. I^ IS sometimes paved with stone, sometimes of tile, and sometimes of 
 
 asphalte; more commonly, I think, of asphalte. 
 
 3d March 1863. 
 
 _ ■263. Have you any |)articular preference with regard to that matter? 
 
 Yes ; I should prefer having it of .srone to asphalte, because a slow decom- 
 position appears to go on in the asphalte, which produces an unpleasant smell 
 in the cell without anything else. 
 
 264. Asphalte occasionally imbibes the moisture, and exhales it at particular 
 periods as well, does it not ? 
 
 1 should not have supposed that that was the case, but it becomes softened 
 in warm weather, so that even the weight of the table causes the leg to sink 
 into the floor. 
 
 265. Do you see any object in point of health or in point of disciiDline why 
 you would prefer having the floors of stone ? 
 
 I think they may be kept more clean and dry. 
 
 266. Marquess of Salishia-jj.] Is not stone very absorbent of moisture ? 
 Some kinds of stone are exceedinglv so. One objection, perhaps, to the use 
 
 of stone is, that as the stone of a particular district is likely to be used, it may 
 happen that that may be a soft, porous stone, and therefore unfit for the 
 purpose. 
 
 267. And you think that that would be injurious to the health of the 
 prisoners ? 
 
 Yes, it might be injurious to the health of the prisoners. The same thing 
 appUes somewhat to cells, and I tiiink it is on that account that asphalte has 
 been so commonly preferred. I cannot say that I think that the exhalation 
 which I have observed from the asphalte is likely to be injurious to health. Of 
 course the softening of it, which I have observed, is not of any material con- 
 sequence. 
 
 268. Chairman.'] Have you never known any injurious consequences to 
 health from the floor being of stone, ])rovided that the stone was not of an 
 exceptional nature ? 
 
 No, not at all. 
 
 269. Are you aware of any prisons in which that stone pavement has been 
 covered up in any way with matting or with carpet'' 
 
 No, excepting in those cells which are intended for sick persons or for lying- 
 in women. 
 
 270. But not for an ordinarv prisoner? 
 
 No. 
 
 271. Earl Cat heart.'] Is it admitted by all those who are best informed in the 
 science of prison disciphne that separation is essential to prevent con- 
 tamination . 
 
 I should not like to take upon myself to say that it is so regarded by all those 
 persons, but I think that almost the universal opinion is in favour of it. 
 
 272. I asked with regard to the jxople uho are best informed with regard to 
 prison discipline. Do you think that there is any great difference of opinion 
 with regard to that essential jjrinciple, namely, that separation is essential to 
 prevent contamination : 
 
 I think that there is no difference of opinion about that. 
 
 273. Is it not a most fixed ])rinci])le, and, indeed, almost the only really fixed 
 and hmdamental principle in the science, that sci)aration is essential. 
 
 It is so in my own opinion, and the opinion ot those whom I consider the 
 best infcnnued upon the suliject. 
 
 274. Chairman ] Can you state what is the average thickness of the walls of 
 separation between the dift'erent cells i 
 
 I cannot at this mcnnent ; it varies very much in dift'erent prisons ; I think 
 that information would be best obtained by a reference to the reports of the 
 Pentonville Prison, which are generally taken as tlie standard in building prisons; 
 though not always. 
 
 275- In
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 25 
 
 27,';. In many prisons the walls are not of such a thickness as to exclude the j ^ p^^^ ^^^ 
 
 possibility of communication between prisoner and prisoner? ' ; ' 
 
 Certainly not, communication by sounds. 3d March 1803.- 
 
 276. Have not those sounds sometimes been reduced to language ? 
 
 So it has been said, but I think that that must be a very fanciful idea, because 
 as they will not have an op])ortunity of conferring together to agree upon the 
 significance of the sounds, it is not likely that they can communicate an)' fact 
 by them. There is no doubt that they can excite attention and make them- 
 selves heard very easily thi'ough the walls, but a voice cannot be heard. 
 
 277. Do you believe that there are any prisons with which you are ac- 
 quainted in which communication in some manner or other does not pass ? 
 
 I feel sure that there are prisons in which no communication takes place of 
 any kind. 
 
 278. Duke of jMaiihorou(fli.~\ Will you state what prisons those are? 
 
 One of those that I had in my mind was the gaol at Bristol; there are two 
 prisons there, but the one that I allude to is the gaol at Bristol. 
 
 279. .Are you referring to the county gaol? 
 No, it belongs to the city. 
 
 280- C/uiinhan.'] Is it on the separate system ? 
 
 There are separate cells throughout, but they are not certified for separate 
 confinement because they are too small, and they are not artificially ventilated. 
 
 2S1 . Marquess of Salisbury ] Is there any peculiarity of construction in those 
 cells ? 
 
 No, not any ; but it arises from the good management and extreme vigilance 
 of the governor. 
 
 282. Lord WockIio7ise.'] What is the effect of the cells not being certified as 
 to the restrictions which are put iq^on the governing authorities of gaols ? 
 
 The effect is very small indeed, because it is impossible to control the time 
 that a prisoner is kept in a cell, and the Act of Parliament does not define what 
 length of confinement in the cell shall constitute separate confinement ; and 
 therefore in some prisons, where the cells are not certified, the prisoners are 
 really kept as long in them as they are in certified cells. I always set my 
 face against it, and insist upon their being walked out of doors, or exercising 
 more, but that is not done to any very great extent, I think. 
 
 283. I suppose that, practically, in some at least of the gaols where the cells, 
 though separate, are not certified, the prisoners are employed more in labour 
 out of doors than is the case where, the cells being certified, they are kept ex- 
 clusively in the cells, with the exception of a short time for exercise ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2 84. There is that practical distinction, though there is no absolute rule ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 28/5. Duke of Marlborough.] Is it the case now that the cells are required 
 to be certified befoie the prisoners are allowed to be subjected to separate 
 confinement in them? 
 
 Y'es. 
 
 286. Is that bv the old Act of Parliament ? 
 
 No ; it is by the 2d and 3d of the present reign, c. 56. 
 
 287. Lord Wodehoiiic] Is it not necessary to draw some distinction with 
 regard to the length of time that the prisoners are confined in their cells ; that 
 is to say, you may either a(loj)t the whole system of separate confinement as it 
 is spoken of by persons who write upon this subject, under which system the 
 prisoners are entu'ely confined to their cells, with exception of an hour or an 
 hour and a half for exercise, as is the case in Pentonville, or you may adopt a 
 system under whicli the prisoners are in separate cells whenever they are not 
 at work, by which you obtain a certain amount of the benefit of the separate 
 system, though you have not the whole ; it is necessary, is it not, to make that 
 distinction ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 (37.1.) D 288. Do
 
 26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 /. G. Perry, Esq. 288. Do you not think that, although you may have in a prison cells which 
 
 • — ' are not sufficiently large or well ventilated to be certified, yet that it is very 
 
 '^ " ^"^^ ^' important, even where that is the case, that tlie prisoners should sleep in 
 
 separate cells, and should be separated as far as possible consistently with their 
 
 being employed during the day at hard labour. 
 
 Certainly ; and at the Bristol prison to which I have alluded, the prisoners 
 are taken out of their cells very much for hard labour, but they are not 
 associated when they are out of their cells ; they work in separate sheds. 
 Lately they have abandoned the treadwheel ; they used to work the treadwheel, 
 but the prisoners were in separate partitions — ever}^ man was shut into his 
 partition, so that no communication could take place between them in the 
 treadmill, but now tbey have abandoned that system for the purpose of adopting 
 productive labour, which has been carried on to a very great extent by the 
 present governor. 
 
 289. In your opinion, in the case of old gaols, where it would be very 
 difficult, except at a very large expense, or by the construction of a new gaol, 
 thoroughly to carry out what is called the separate system, is it not the best 
 plan to do as is done in the Bristol gaol, namely, to separate the prisoners at 
 night, and to employ them in work during the day, separating them one from, 
 another whilst they are at work ? 
 
 Yes, if it can be done ; and it can be done by the exercise of a due degree 
 of care and ingenuity on the part of the governor. 
 
 290. My object in asking the question is this, that there a,re a great number 
 of gaols throughout the country in which the separate system could not be 
 completely carried out, and yet a very great improvement might be made in 
 the system, by adopting it partially ; and I wish to ascertain your opinion, 
 whether that partial adoption of the system would not be, pi'actically, a very 
 good object to aim at. 
 
 Certainly ; I am of that opinion. 
 
 291 . Earl Cat heart.] What is the most glaring example that you are acquainted 
 with, of the evils of association in a prison within your district ? 
 
 Perhaps the most glaring example of that is the one that has been mentioned, 
 that is to say, the prii-on where two prisoners slept in one bed. 
 
 292. You do not refer, do you, to Coldbath Fields ? 
 
 No ; they have never arrived at that in Coldbath Fields. 
 
 293. Do you mean, that at the present moment two prisoners sleep in one 
 bed in the case that you refer to ? 
 
 No ; that is not the case now. 
 
 294. What is the worst example at the present moment? 
 
 I suppose that when the Falmouth Prison is full, that is about the worst. 
 
 295. Which would be the next to that? 
 
 Coldbath Fields is very bad in that respect now ; but 300 separate cells are 
 in the course of erection there. 
 
 296. Do you thinl< it is absolutely essential that some measures should be 
 taken to prevent communication, where prisoners are associated ? 
 
 Yes ; I think so. 
 
 297. You probably mean, that that should be done by legislation ? 
 
 Yes; by giving greater power than exists at present, to insist upon the 
 prisoners in the smaller gaols being sent to the well provided county gaols or 
 borough gaols in the neighbourhood. 
 
 298. You are clearly of opinion that such are the evils of association that 
 measures ought to be taken at once to put a stop to the system entirely ? 
 
 Yes, I do think so ; and I say this not merely upon moral grounds, but upon 
 political grounds also ; because I am quite sure that the thing which has con- 
 tributed more than any other to getting employment for the prisoners after 
 their discharge from prison, is the conviction that is entertained m the neigh- 
 bourhood of those prisons which are conducted on the separate system that 
 no additional criminality can have been derived by a prisoner during his resi- 
 dence in the gaol ; that is to say, that he has not been allowed to associate 
 
 with
 
 3d March I863. 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 27 
 
 with the other prisoners, and that, at any rate, he is not any the worse for his j. g. Perry, E&n. 
 imprisonment. 
 
 2Qq. Would it surprise you to be told that in one prison there was a 
 prostitute associated with a young woman who had before been tolerably decent 
 in her conduct, and that arrangements were made by which the prostitute 
 induced this girl, who was formerly comparatively innocent, to come to her 
 house and become afterwards a prostitute ; would it be confirmed by your 
 experience that such a circumstance might occur ? 
 
 That such things have occurred I have not the least doubt. 
 
 300. "Woidd you be surprised to hear that a bui'glary, with violence, has 
 been concocted upon the treadmill between two prisoners .' 
 
 I should not be surprised at it. 
 
 301. There was a curious instance in which a very dangerous burglary was 
 planned in Winchester Gaol between two prisoners, who were afterwards 
 executed for the same offence ? 
 
 It would not surprise me that such a thing should occur in associated 
 prisons. 
 
 302. Chairman.'] Would not such communication be impossible, or next to 
 impossible, on the tieadmiU if there were separate compartments in which the 
 prisoners were confined. 
 
 Yes, if they were sufficiently well constructed, and if the prisoners in the 
 intervals of rest were kept as separate as they are on the treadmill ; but that 
 is not always the case ; 1 have seen prisoners who are separated on the wheel 
 sitting upon the bench in front of the wheel in the intervals of rest. 
 
 303. Lord IFodehouse.] Is it not easy to guard against that by making the 
 prisoners sit down during the intervals of rest, and always having the otiicers 
 continually walking up and down in front of the prisoners to see that they 
 cannot converse ? 
 
 Ihat may be done by proper care, or they may sit in separate compart- 
 ments. 
 
 304. Earl Cathcart.'] Is not communication on the treadmill a great source 
 of prison crime and punishment. 
 
 There are very few prisons in which the prisoners are not now separated on 
 the treadmill by partitions, but it is not invariably so ; in the great prison at 
 Worcester it is not so on all the treadmills. 
 
 30> Lord JVoddiousc.'] ^\'ould you be prepared to go so far as to say that 
 in any associated gaol where the system of association is kept up, you would 
 recommend that it should be discontinued even though it be a county gaol r 
 
 Yes, certainly. 
 
 306, Chairman.] In fact, you would recommend that the law should enforce 
 a general system of separation throughout the country : 
 
 1 should recommend that most strenuously. 
 
 307. Earl of Romncy.'] May I ask whether your object has regard to the benefit 
 of the prisoner or to the benefit of the public ? 
 
 Both ; first, as regards the prisoner, that it would prevent his being further 
 contaminated ; and it affects the public, because, of course the comparative 
 innocence of a prisoner is a very great object to them, and they can also 
 more safely take the prisoner into their employ after he goes out of gaol. 
 
 305. You think it a decidedly good plan for reforming a man to shut him 
 up in a room by himself, and let him see no one. 
 
 Not to let him associate with other prisoners. 
 
 309. You mean that he shall associate with nobody else on terms of 
 equality because his intercourse is confined to the turnkey, who is a respect- 
 able man, or the chajjlain, or the warder. 
 
 The turnkey is superior only in being respectable ; many of the turnkeys 
 are c[uite as illiterate as the prisoners. 
 
 310. Do you think that from his being shut up in that way there is any 
 probability of his reformation ? 
 
 (37- 1.) D 2 Provided
 
 28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Esq. Provided that the confinement be attended with other means. I do not 
 , ,r^ — ~ „„ think that merely shutting the man up is sufficient. 
 
 3d March 1863. ' ° ' 
 
 — 311. Were you ever in a prison, or did you ever know a prison under the 
 
 old prison system where the men associated in the yards r 
 Yes ; many. 
 
 312. You think that is an undoubted evil? 
 Decidedly so. 
 
 313. Do you think that there was no good in the habit that a man might 
 learn in that association, of restraining his temper and the habits that he had 
 been indvdging in towards other men ? 
 
 I do not think that self-control would be so likel}^ to result as the excitement 
 of temper. The quarrels were very great. I have known prisoners fight in 
 the day-rooms from quarrels taking place between them. 
 
 314. Have you ever l<nown an instance of a man who began to fight when 
 he came in, becoming afterwards, through being compelled to resti-ain himself, 
 a ver}' quiet man r 
 
 I cannot say that I have when the prisoners have been in association. 
 
 315. Marquess of Salisburij.'] What other means of reformation do you 
 allude to besides imprisonment .' 
 
 Labour and education. 
 
 316. Earl Cuthcart.^ When prisoners are associated, it would be impossible, 
 wonld it not, for any man more decent than the others to pray or meditate, or 
 anything of that sort, without being mocked by his comrades ? 
 
 (^)uite so. 
 
 317. The sum of what you say is this : with regard to contamination, that 
 if evil communications corrupt good manners they will certainly much more 
 corrupt bad ones ? 
 
 Yes ; the better disposed will very soon sink to the level of the worst, and 
 there is very little chance that the worst will be improved l:)y association. 
 
 318. Earl of Roiuneij.] When I talk of associated prisoners, I do not mean that 
 the prisoners are associated during the night, but in separate cells at night and 
 associated during the day ; do not you think that an improvement might be 
 made with regard to classification, if instead of classifying them as under the 
 Act of the 4th of George the Fourth, according to the offences for which the 
 man is now in prison, they were . classified, according to the knowledge and 
 experience of the keeper and of the visiting justices r 
 
 Yes ; they are very seldom classified according to the 4th of George the 
 Fourth. 
 
 319. But they must be so in associated prisons, must they not ? 
 Yes, they must. 
 
 3 1 9.* In associated prisons if it were left to the discretion of those who know 
 from the look of a prisoner immediately what sort of a man he is, and if they 
 were placed according to what was known of them, and not according to the 
 offence for which they happened to be imprisoned at the present moment, do not 
 you think that that might be a very great advantage over the present system? 
 
 I think it might, and it is done in some instances, even though there is not 
 the sanction of the law for it. 
 
 320. It is a violation of the Act of Parliament, is it not ? 
 
 It is so, Init the governors sometimes take the responsibility of removing a 
 prisoner from his class if they think that he is very nuu;h less contaminated 
 than the others in the room, and of putting him by himself. 
 
 321. Then, if they were associated in that way, might not this happen, that 
 by being in society together, so far from doing themselves harm, very often a man 
 of uncontrolled temper might be obliged to yield to others, and he might 
 become a better man in consequence ? 
 
 That is possible, but I should not be sanguine as to such an effect. 
 
 322. Duke of JMarlhoroii'^h.'] Would not the probability lie very much in the 
 other direction, and that if a man is predisposed to lose his temper if he fotnid 
 
 that
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 29 
 
 that others were equally predisposed, it might in all probability aggravate J- G. Perry, Esq, 
 
 I should rather expect that effect myself. ^ '^' 
 
 323. Lord Wodehoiise.'] I collect it to be your opinion that, apart from all other 
 questions of discipline, it is conclusively in favour of separating the prisoners, 
 and that in no other wav can you avoid contamination ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3'.:4. And that you think that that negative good is certain to be obtained by 
 separating them ? 
 Yes. 
 
 32,5. And that any possible advantages which might result from association 
 are quite certain to be overbalanced by the certain evils which must result from 
 their being contaminated ? 
 
 That is quite my opinion. 
 
 326. Earl Cat/icart.'] Would it not be cruel, as well as unjust, supposing that 
 a man is innocent, and is committed for trial, that he should be herded with a 
 number of the worst possible characters, and should be associated with them? 
 
 Such a thing would never be in accordance with my experience, 
 
 327. In associated prisons that must be done, must it not ? 
 Whenever I find it out I always object to it very strongly. 
 
 328. A man with tolerable decency of feeling would much prefer being kept 
 by himself instead of being mixed up with a number of bad characters, would 
 he not ? 
 
 Undoubtedly ; but a man committed for trial is not necessarily better than 
 those who are convicted ; but when a decent man is in an associated prison 
 the governor generally puts him into a room by himself if he can. 
 
 329. Chairman^ The Com.mittee would wish to have some infonnation with 
 regard to the executive staff of officers in the prisons ; can you state what the 
 general staff of any ordinary certified prison comprises ? 
 
 Nothing can be more various than the proportion which the officers bear to 
 the prisoners. 
 
 330. Would you be good enough first to state what the different officers are, 
 without regard to the proportion r 
 
 Tiiere is a governor, and where the prison is large there is commonly a 
 deputy-governor; a certain number of warders (which is a very varying number 
 in different prisons), a chaplain, and in very large prisons an assistant chaplain, 
 or a second chaplain v/ith equal powers with the first. If the prison is on the 
 separate system there is an engineer for the management of the fires, and 
 indeed for general repairs, which are continually wanted, a cook, a gate-porter, 
 a surgeon, a schoolmaster, a matron, and trades' instructors generally ; but 
 the warders are generally chosen on account of their proficiency in trades, so 
 that they may be able to instruct the prisoners. 
 
 331. The appointment of the governor rests with the sheriff, does it not, in 
 certain cases ? 
 
 In most gaols I think tliat originally the sheriff had the appointment, Imt it 
 is now very rarely made by the sheriff; the appointment is generally made by 
 the Quarter Sessions. 
 
 332. And in boroughs, how is it made r 
 In boroughs it is made by the magistrates. 
 
 333. Lord President.] By the Quarter Sessions you mean the magistrates in 
 Quarter Sessions r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 334. Marquess of Salisburj/.] The sheriff has no power to pay the governor ? 
 
 No. 
 
 335. And, therefore, it entirely falls into the hands of the magistrates ? 
 Just so ; I have known an instance where the sheriff made the appointment, 
 
 and where the man was incompetent and the salary was withdrawn. 
 
 (37 1.) D 3 33^- Earl
 
 30 MINUTKS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Esq. 33^'- Earl Romney.'] Is it not the fact that the sheriff always appoints the 
 
 keeper of the gaol ? 
 
 3d March 1863. ] beheve that the sheriff has a voice in the appointment; but as the keeper 
 of the gaol is always the keeper also of the house of correction, he is generally 
 appointed first as keeper by the magistrates and accepted by the sheriff, 
 
 337. It is the case that the sheriff appoints the gaoler, and the magistrates 
 the keeper of the house of correction ? 
 
 Yes ; but now that the prisons are combined, there is combined action in 
 the appointment. 
 
 33'!i. Lord Steward.'] Practically the united office of gaoler and keeper of the 
 house of correction is filled up by the appointment of the magistrates assembled 
 at Quarter Sessions ? 
 
 Yes, I think it is ; but as gaoler he must be confirmed by the sheriff, 
 because he has the care of the debtors, and gives security to the sheriff for 
 them. 
 
 339. Earl of Malmesbury.l If the sheriff appoints the gaoler, who has the 
 autliority to dismiss him in case of misconduct ? 
 
 I apprehend that the sheriff has the power to dismiss him as gaoler, but not 
 as governor of the house of correction. 
 
 340. Then a complaint must first be made to the sheriff of the misconduct of 
 the gaoler before he can be got rid of? 
 
 The practice is different in different places, I believe, and in boroughs and in 
 counties. I have one case in my mind where the Secretary of State caUed 
 upon the justices to dismiss a gaoler ; in that case the gaoler was appointed by 
 the bailiff, and he refused to dismiss him. Therefore the same power that 
 appointed him had the power of dismissing him in that case ; but there it was 
 not the sheriff, but the bailiff of the borough. 
 
 341. In that case the Secretary of State did not consider that the gaoler was 
 the officer of the sheriff ? 
 
 No, certainly not, but that was in a borough. 
 
 342. Earl Cat heart.] Do not the justices pay him a certain part of his 
 salary ; he receives fees from the sheriff, but his salary is paid by the magis- 
 trates, is it not ? 
 
 1 believe that the justices pay him all ; I do not think that the sheriff pays 
 the gaoler. 
 
 343. Lord Wodehousc] It is provided in the Act of the 4th of George the 
 Fourth, that the magistrates shall fix the salary, both of keepers of gaols and 
 the keepers of prisons ? 
 
 That is what I say ; that the magistrates certainly pay them. 
 
 344. Duke of Marlboroiig/i.] Is it supposed that the magistrates do not 
 ap])oint the gaoler, but only the keeper of the house of correction ? 
 
 They appoint the keeper of the house of correction, and as they never 
 have two separate officers, the keeper of the house of correction is accepted 
 by the sheriff as the gaoler, and gives security to the sheriff for the 
 debtors. 
 
 345. Chairman.] Can you state what is the maximum salary of a governor in 
 your district r 
 
 I beheve 600 I. 
 
 346. And what is the minimum ? 
 
 That is very low indeed ; 20 /. or even less. 
 
 347. Those two salaries imply an entirely different class of people, from which 
 the govei-nors are selected r 
 
 Yes, entirely ; the highest salary in my district is that of the governor of the 
 Middlesex House of Correction. 
 
 348. Y)\\kc oi Marlborouijh.] Have you ever known any inconvenience arise 
 from the appointment of tlie gaoler being vested in the sheriff, while that of the 
 keeper of the prison is in the magistrates, from the fact of the two being 
 combined in one ])erson, and the sheriff not sanctioning the appointment made 
 by the magistrates of the keeper of the liouse of correction ? 
 
 I have
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 31 
 
 I have never known any such eiise of inconvenience. The only incon- /. G. Perry, Esq. 
 
 venience that I recollect, is where a gaoler having been appointed by the sheriff 
 
 and found to be incompetent for his oiBce, the magistrates reduced his salary 3 ^ March 186 3. 
 with a view to leading to his resignation. That is the only instance which has 
 occurred within my knowledge, and that was many years ago. 
 
 349. Did it lead to his resignation in that instance ? 
 Yes, it did. 
 
 350. Chairman.'] I presume that the case of the dismissal of a governor is a 
 very rare case ? 
 
 It has been recommended by the Secretary of State, in two instances within 
 my district, in my time, and in each case resisted by the magistrates, and the 
 magistrates carried the point. In the first case, the man was afterwards guilty 
 of forgery upon the county to a very large extent, and he was prosecuted and 
 transported ; and in the other case the gaoler still remains. 
 
 351. Eaxl Cathcart.] With reference to the number of debtors confined in 
 prisons, it is very greatly reduced now, is it not ? 
 
 Yes, it is very much reduced. 
 
 352. Therefore, in the prisons the debtors are pretty well accommodated 
 now? 
 
 Yes, there is generally very much more room than is required for debtors, 
 and only within the last week I have pointed out a change which might be 
 made in taking some of the debtors' cells for criminals. 
 
 353. Do not you consider that the class of persons appointed as governors 
 are generally superior to what they were some time ago with reference to intel- 
 ligence, and so on ? 
 
 Yes, they are men of intelligence and social position who are appointed now, 
 but 1 am not sure that that is always a security for their competence for the 
 office, 
 
 354. Within your experience has the class of persons who are appointed as 
 governors of prisons improved in intelligence and in position ? 
 
 In intelligence and social position certainly, but not always, as I have said, 
 in fitness for the office. I should myself rather prefer promoting a good officer 
 from the lower ranks than bringing in a sti'anger who has never seen a prison 
 in his life perhaps, and whose only acquaintance is with military discipline. I 
 do not mean that to apply to all instances of the kind, for I have known some 
 very good military governors, but I do not think that military education is the 
 best preparation for the office of governor of a prison in all cases. 
 
 355. Chairman.'] What are the faults that a military education tend to 
 develope in the management of a gaol ? 
 
 It leads the governor to treat prisoners in a mass rather than as individuals. 
 
 356. Your opinion being that you ought to individualise the treatment as 
 much as possible r 
 
 Yes ; and that the characters of the men should be studied. 
 
 3.57. Earl of Romney.] Military governors rather like to govern by means of 
 the turnkeys than by knowing the prisoners themselves personally ? 
 Yes, that is frequently the tendency. 
 
 358. Chairman.] Would it not be impossible, in a gaol with 800 or 900 
 prisoners, for the governor to individualise to the extent of personally being 
 acquainted with the characters of his prisoners. 
 
 If it were adopted amongst the subordinate officers that system of individual- 
 isation might be carried out very well. I do not mean to say that the governor 
 himself is to be the sole means of carrying it out, but if he inculcates that 
 system amongst his inferior officers, they may all assist in the work, and that 
 a mihtary man is very little likely to do ; and on that account I have frequently 
 seen instances where military governors are too much, as I have thought, dis- 
 posed to rule by military discipline, and by general rules, rather than by indi- 
 vidual means. 
 
 3,5Q. Lord Steward.] Do you not think that a good commanding officer of a 
 
 regiment endeavours, either by himself or by his subordinate officers, to make 
 
 (37. 1.) D 4 himself
 
 gd March 18^3. 
 
 32 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Pe'-ry, Esq. liiinself acquainted with tiie character of each individual soldier under his 
 command ? 
 
 I do helieve that that happens sometimes, and on that account I have said 
 that there are excejations to the rule '.vhicli I iiive laid down. I have known 
 military officers who have had that teiulencv, but I do not think that a military 
 education leads to that tendency, and prob.ibly those men would liave cultivated 
 the habit (jf individuaUsation more if they had been civilians. 
 
 .3G0. Is not that the pi-actice of everv good commanding officer? 
 
 I am not sufficiently acquainted with the discipline of the army to say. 
 
 3G1. Earl Cathcart.] Are you not aware that it is the duty of the captain of 
 a company to know every man of his company, and in his own handwriting, or 
 that of the officers of the company, to record every offence committed by every 
 man in his company ? 
 
 I presume it is ; but I was not aware of the rule. 
 
 3ti2. Chairman.] Passing now to the subordinate officers in the gaol, what 
 are the limits of the salaries which are generally assigned in certified gaols ? 
 
 Generally .speaking, I think the highest salaries in the countv gaols are 
 about 70 /. a year to the subordinate officers, and 200 /. or 300 /. a year to the 
 deputy governor. 
 
 363. From what class, as a general rule, are the uisciplinaiy officers of a 
 prison taken ? 
 
 Many are pensioned soldiers ; many are countrymen hired fi-om the neigh- 
 bourhood, and some are policemen. 
 
 364. As a class, do you entertain a favourable opinion of them ? 
 Yes, I do ; 1 think that there are among them a great many very com- 
 petent men. 
 
 36.5. Do you consider that the work is effectively done ? 
 Yes ; I think it is, generally. 
 
 366. Earl Cathcart.] You have mentioned in your report, the case of a chief 
 warder who was dismissed for having carried communications between prisoner 
 and prisoner. 
 
 Yes, 1 have known such instances ; I am not speaking of their being inva- 
 riably fit men, but I was asked what was my general impression of them, and 
 1 think that most of the prisons contain some very good officers. 
 
 367. Is it invariablv the rule that they Hve within the walls of the prison r 
 No. 
 
 368. In the majority of instances, what is the case r 
 Thei-e are generally some that live within the walls, and others in the towns. 
 
 369. Do you conceive that it is an objectionable principle that they should 
 live without the walls ? 
 
 Yes, I think it would he much better if they could live within, but it is very 
 difficult to provide accommodation for them within. 
 
 370. Under the regulations of most gaols, are they armed ? ' 
 No. 
 
 371. Do you conceive it desirable tliat they .should be unarmed ? 
 Yes. 1 do not think that it is desirable in general that they shndd be armed. 
 
 372. Is there generally a sufficient force at hand to support them in every 
 gaol ? 
 
 Yes, there is generallv sufficient force of officers : but combination among the 
 prisoners is very uncommon, and when a prisoner attacks an officer, there are 
 generally two or three ready to assist the officer against him. 
 
 373. Loi-d Stnrard.'l Is the period of imprisonment in gaols and houses of 
 correction sufficiently long to enable the officers to become acquainted with the 
 character of a jirisoncr r 
 
 "i he confinement in gaols and houses of correction sometimes goes up to 
 three years, and often to two, but that is a very small proportion ; a great many 
 are confined for si.\ months or for three months. 
 
 374. Earl
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCtPLINE. 33 
 
 374. Earl Cat heart r\ Could you tell their Lordships of the case of a woman j, g. Perry, Esq. 
 who was confined in a gaol, in which gaol her own husband was a warder ? 
 
 Yes, 1 have heard of such a case. 3d March 186 3. 
 
 375. I presume such cases as that do not occur frequently, and ought not 
 to occur at all ? 
 
 They are not likely to occur frequently, but I do not see how they are to 
 be avoided ; sometimes a woman having been guilty of an offence, say an assault 
 in the town in which she resides, if she is committed to prison at all, must be 
 sent to that prison where her husband may happen to be an officer ; and I do 
 not sec how that is to be avoided. 
 
 376. Chairman.'] What is the proportion of officers that you consider neces- 
 sary to a prison ? 
 
 That depends very much upon the construction of the prisons ; those that 
 are best constructed, such as are built at the present day, require a smaller 
 number of officers than other prisons, which have been altered, perhaps, from the 
 old system to the new. It is difficult to say exactly what proportion is wanted, 
 because the number of prisoners varies so much, and the number of officers 
 cannot be made to vary in the same proportion. 
 
 377. Must not the proportion of officers be much greater where, under any 
 system, you give the prisoners facilities for out-of-door exercise, for agricultural 
 employment, for trades, instructions in various branches, and for frequent occa- 
 sions of passing to and fro in different parts of the prison ? 
 
 Yes, certainly the proportion must be greater in such cases ; and in prisons 
 where the prisoners work in association, as at Cold Bath Fields and as at the 
 Westminster Bridewell, the number of officers must be very large to keep up 
 a continual supervision over them. The prisons that require the smallest 
 number of officers are those on the separate system, where the prisoners work 
 in their cells. 
 
 378. And where that system is carried out most strictly? 
 Yes. 
 
 379. As regards the prisoners themselves, are they allowed in any gaols to 
 see their friends ? 
 
 They are, under certain restrictions, and at long intervals of time. 
 
 380. Is there always a specified interval between each visit? 
 It is almost invariably three months. 
 
 381. Are they separated by any gratings at those interviews? 
 
 They are. They never can approach each other so as to convey anything 
 from the one to the other, and an officer is generally or almost invariably 
 placed in the interval between them. 
 
 382. What is the interval of time in ordinary cases which is required to 
 elapse between visit and visit ? 
 
 Three months. 
 
 383. Are they allowed to receive letters ? 
 
 One letter in the interval ; so that they have one letter every three months, 
 and one visit every three months ; that is the ordinary rule. 
 
 384. Are they allowed to write letters r 
 Yes ; they are allowed to write one letter. 
 
 385. Is that treated as a matter of indulgence, or is it limited to particular 
 classes, or is it thrown open to the whole of the prisoners within the gaol ? 
 
 It is a standing rule that a convicted prisoner shall be allowed to write once 
 in three months, but he may forfeit that privilege by bad behaviour, and his 
 letter may be postponed for some time. 
 
 386. Ave. you aware whether this privilege of communicating operates on 
 the minds of prisoners as an inducement to good conduct ? 
 
 I think it is a good rule in that respect. I think that keei)ing up a man's 
 association with his home has a good and humanising influence, particularly 
 as the letters are always seen, and as the prisoner is aware that his letters will 
 be seen ; but there are a great many instances in which a prisoner cannot 
 
 (37. 1.) E write.
 
 3d March 1863. 
 
 34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perri/, Esq. write, and then the letter is written for him by one of the officers of the 
 prison. 
 
 387. Would you say that that holds good in the case of a man taken from 
 what I may call the habitual class of thief? 
 
 That would depend upon the person ^\■ith whom he communicates. There 
 are some persons whom it would be certainly desirable to deprive altogether of 
 the privilege, especially if they wrote anything whicli was at all objectionable ; 
 but they cannot make any communications which are very objectionable with- 
 out their being discovered by the officers who read the letter. 
 
 388. Earl Cathcart.'] In cases where humanity requires it, and there is any 
 good reason for it, do the visiting justices relax the rule, and allow letters to be 
 written at a shorter interval than three months ? 
 
 Yes, they do by special order. 
 
 389. Chairman.'] It must be a special order from the visiting justices, must 
 it not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 390. Are you aware of any gaols in which prisoners are allowed to under- 
 take any particular duties in the management of the prison, such as instructing 
 other prisoners, or acting tliemselves as turnkeys or warders ? 
 
 I Lave known two or three instances where they have been allowed to assist 
 in the instruction of other prisoners ; and I have pointed out that it was con- 
 trary to law at present. I have sometimes regretted that the law was so 
 stringent upon that point, inasmuch as I have known men of education who 
 would have been very competent instructors of the other prisoners, and who, I 
 have thought, might have been made to assist in the education of prisoners ; 
 but the law is very strict upon that point, that no prisoner should be employed 
 in the management of a prison, or in the control of other prisoners. 
 
 391. When you speak of the law, do you mean under the statute? 
 Yes. 
 
 392. Would it not be very objectionable to relax that rule, and to enable the 
 prisoners to be turned into monitors - 
 
 . If it were extensively done, it would be very injurious indeed. It is fre- 
 quently done in convict prisons ; and I Lave known instances where I have 
 tliought it would be useful in other prisons ; for instance, I have known a clergy- 
 man to be in prison, who, although guilty of an offence sufficient to bring 
 him there, was, generally .'^peaking, a good moral man, and who would not 
 have corrupted the prisoners v/lio were put under his care, and who really 
 might have been made useful in the instruction of the prisoners. 
 
 393. Are there any instances in your district where prisoners have been 
 allowed to go beyond the walls of the prison on messages, either for the governor 
 or any other officer ? 
 
 I have sometimes discovered it, and have always treated it as an illegal pro- 
 ceeding, and have remonstrated with the authorities upon it. 
 
 394. Are you aware whether it exists at all, as a practice, in any gaol ? 
 In some. 
 
 395. At this moment ? 
 1 hope not. I have remonstrated against it, and have received promises that 
 
 it should be discontinued. 
 
 396. Do you consider it to be a desirable thing that the prisoners should be 
 employed outside the walls of the gaol, or even inside the vvrtlls of the gaol, in 
 the rei)airs of particular parts of the building 1 
 
 I have no objection to their being employed inside the gaol, but certainly 
 outside the gaol I think it is very objectionable. 
 
 397. Are you aware whether that has been done ? 
 Yes, I am sure it has, in some cases. 
 
 398. Has it been done frequently ? 
 
 No, very seldom. 
 
 399. In
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 35 
 
 399. In what gaol has that been done r j^ G. Perry, Esq. 
 In Montgomery I rememljer an instance of it, and I think in Winchester ' 
 
 and in Bodmin too. 3d March 1863. 
 
 400. Earl oiRomncy.'] When you say outside the gaol, the sessions house may 
 be close adjoining to the gaol, and it may be that sort of case in which the 
 prisoners have been employed outside : 
 
 In the case that I allude to at Montgomery, the prisoners were allowed to go 
 quite outside the prison, and assist in bringing in coal<, and some of them ran 
 away in consequence ; and the same occurred at Bodmin. 
 
 401 . In those cases they were employed within what may be called the curti- 
 lage of the prison ? 
 
 It was close b}'. 
 
 402. It was merely for the purpose of doing the work of tlie prison ? 
 Yes. 
 
 403. Earl Cathcart.] Are we to understand you, that it is possible at this 
 moment, tiiat prisoners may be sent out of the prison upon messages ? 
 
 ]\o, I have never myself known an instance of that kind. 
 
 404. Have there not been two instances of men escaping this year, in con- 
 sequence of their being employed in sweeping outside the prison door, and 
 taking advantage of the opportunity to escape ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 405. Are you aware that it was frequently the practice at one time to send 
 prisoners out upon messages ? 
 
 I have heard so, but that was before my time ; I have never known an in- 
 stance of it within the last 20 years. 
 
 406. Earl of Ronmet/.] Do you think it is objectionable that out of 20 men, 
 one man should be selected occasionally to have the charge over the others ? 
 
 Yes, I do think that is objectionable. 
 
 407. Why? 
 
 I think that the prisoners feel less disposed to be subordinate to that sort of 
 authority, and it is difficult to know whether a man is deserving of the trust. 
 
 408. But in doing prison work, supposing men have to wheel up coals, one 
 man is put as a sort of foreman over them ? 
 
 I would never do that ; I would always put them under an officer's direction. 
 In some prisons they employ prisoners as cooks ; but I would never have that 
 done if I could help it, without having an officer over the prisoner. 
 
 409. Do you think that if the turnkeys and others in authority, seeing that a 
 man is behaving himself well, were to select him and put him forward over the 
 others in that way, that would produce no good effect in showing that their 
 good conduct is observed and respected, and that they thereby gain the appro- 
 bation of their superiors ? 
 
 I do not think, speaking theoretically, that it is likely to be so ; I have never 
 seen it in practice, but I know that the practice was discontinued in conse- 
 quence of its being thought very injurious. 
 
 410. Lord IFodehouse.'] You stated that you thought there might be some 
 advantage in allowing prisoners who are well behaved to assist in the education 
 of the other prisoners ; do you think that such an arrangement is consistent 
 with the proper punishment of those persons who would be so employed r 
 
 In the instances that I have known, and where I have thought it would be 
 desirable, the persons were not capable of doing hard labour, and were not 
 employed at hard labour, and therefore it would have been no alleviation of 
 their punishment to allow them to become schoolmasters to the other prisoners. 
 
 411. Do not you think that it would be a considerable alleviation to their 
 punishment for educated men to be allowed to be employed in the work of 
 instruction ? 
 
 It would give them a kind of satisfaction, but at the same time it would be a 
 very exalted satisfaction — it would not be an indulgence of a dangerous kind. 
 (37. 1.) E 2 412. Earl
 
 ■J 
 
 36 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKKN BEFORE THE 
 
 G. Perry, Esq. 4' 2. Earl Cathcart.'\ Besides which, the cases are so very few in which it 
 could be done r 
 3d March 1863. Yes. 
 
 413. Chair man. '\ Is not a relief granted to one prisoner v\'hich is not ex- 
 tended to another, an injustice to the others, and so far prejudicial to your 
 whole system ? 
 
 I do not think that that kind of indulgence, supposing it is an indulgence, 
 would be looked upon with envy by the other prisoners — they would be ex- 
 tremely grateful for tlie assistance rendered to them. I do not think they 
 would consider that the man who was put over them as an instructor was par- 
 ticularly indulged by that Act. 
 
 414. Earl of Malmesbury.'\ It would be rather a laborious office, would it 
 not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 415. Earl Cathcart?\ If they were employed in the governor's garden, 
 would not it be rather an indulgence r 
 
 Yes, but they are not permitted by law to do any work in the service of the 
 governor. 
 
 416. It is done sometimes, is it not? 
 
 It is done sometimes, but very rarely, or else it is denied. I have not myself 
 seen those instances often. 
 
 417. There was a case mentioned in your report, of a prisoner who was em- 
 ployed to nurse another sick prisoner and he caught the infection and died; 
 he was a sort of volunteer, I presume ? 
 
 Yes, he was a volunteer. 
 
 418. Chair man. '\ Is there not a practice in some gaols of giving gratuities to 
 prisoners ? 
 
 There is ; there are gratuities of two kinds, one of that kind which is per- 
 mitted by law, namely, the advance of a certain sum of money to carry the 
 prisoner home ; but in some other prisons (although very few) it is carried 
 further, and a man is rewarded for good conduct by having periodically a 
 star put upon his arm, until perhaps, if he is long enough in prison, he may 
 have seven or eight stars upon his arm, and at the end of his time, if he 
 has not forfeited any of those stars by subsequent bad conduct, he receives a 
 sum of money for each star. In Coldbath Fields he gets half-a-crown. 
 
 419. What is the maximum which it is possible for earnings of that descrip- 
 tion to amount to ? 
 
 If a man were two years in confinement he would get I /. 
 
 420. Duke of Marlborough^ Do you think that it is a sufficient inducement 
 to him to endeavour to maintain his good conduct r 
 
 It operates very well indeed. I am not sure that it is legal under the present 
 state of the law. 
 
 4'i I . Marquess of Salisbury.'] Is that a regulation in Coldbath Fields r 
 It is a regulation in that particular prison. 
 
 422. Has it been lately adopted? 
 
 I think it must be three or four years old. 
 
 423. Have you found any improvement result in the appearance and conduct 
 of thr prisoners in consequence ? 
 
 Yes, it has diminished the number of punishments very much, because a 
 prisoner is afraid of forfeiting his star by being put into punishment. 
 
 424. Duke oi Marlhnroucjh.'] Has the system of marks for good conduct been 
 brouglit within your observation in any other instance of prison discipline in 
 the (■; se of county prisons ? 
 
 Not any. 
 
 42'i. Earl Cathcart.] Has the Act of Parliament of last Session giving power 
 to give additional assistance to prisoners on leaving prison been acted upon ? 
 It Las been acted upon in very few prisons, I believe, as yet. 
 
 426. Probably
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 37 
 
 426. Probably that would be advantageous in the long run ? j, g. F,rry, Esq. 
 I think if that were done to any considerable extent, it would, perhaps, raise 
 
 an outcry among the ratepayers against the expense ; but it is done in Bir- 3d Mavcli i8(),3. 
 mingliam now : but then the Birmingham Prisoners' Aid Society was established " 
 
 before, and this Act was in some measure passed to assist that society. 
 
 427. Are you inclined to think that the Prisoners' Aid Society, being a 
 charitable institution, ought to be supported rather by voluntary subscriptions 
 than by an assessment upon the county rates ? 
 
 Yes, I think it ought. 
 
 428. Chairman.^ When you state that for good conduct a prisoner receives 
 so many stars, and for so many stars so much money, what do you mean by 
 good conduct ? 
 
 I mean only in a negative sense, that he has not been reported for ixny bad 
 conduct. There is no instance, that I am aware of, in any prison (I wish thei'e 
 were) where good conduct is substantively rewarded. 
 
 429. Good conduct in prison, in fact, is nothing positive ? 
 Good conduct in prison means avoiding reports and punishment. 
 
 430. But it involves no substantive act on the part of the prisoner ? 
 It doLS not. 
 
 431. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Have you known any instances of prisoners 
 wishing to merit approbation by being more industrious ? 
 
 Yes, many instances ; the mere love of approbation operates very strongly 
 upon them ; there is a great emulation as to the amount of labour that they 
 perform in many prisons. 
 
 432. Chairman.'] Is there not a wide difference between giving money for 
 .positive labour done b)^ a prisoner whilst he is in confinement, and money 
 
 given for the negative virtue of not committing any breach of prison rules r 
 There is a great difference in that, and in its moral effect also. 
 
 433. Is not the principle perfectly different ? 
 Yes, certainly. 
 
 434. Duke oi Marlborough.] Did I rightly understand you to say, that there 
 is great emulation among the prisoners as to the amount of work per- 
 formed ? 
 
 Yes, where that work is of a productive and valuable kind ; as, for instance, 
 in mat-making, and other things of that sort, the prisoners exert themselves ; 
 and are proud of being told that they have made the greatest number of mats 
 in the prison. 
 
 435. Does that feeling exist where the prisoner does not derive any ad- 
 vantage from the work ? 
 
 It does ; indeed they never receive any pecuniary advantage from it in 
 county and borough prisons. 
 
 436. Is it your opinion that productive labour is always preferable to un- 
 productive labour in prisons ? 
 
 I think it is ; I think its moral effect is better, besides the economical effect 
 of it. 
 
 437. Marquess of Salisbury.] Have you had any opportunity of judging how 
 far the reformation or pretended reformation of prisoners is real ? 
 
 I have been able to trace many instances myself, and have heard from 
 chaplains and other officers of prisons many more, where prisoners after their 
 discharge have got into employment, and have done extremely well afterwards, 
 and have not for many years, during which my observation has extended, 
 come back to prison. 
 
 438. What class of prisoners were those ? 
 
 Those very favourable cases were generally in agricultural districts, where 
 men commit small offences, and> their masters feel that they have been suffi- 
 ciently punished by being sent to prison, and they take them into their 
 employment again in some out of doors occupation after they are discharged, 
 and the men are grateful, and they do very well afterwards. 
 
 (37. 1.) E 3 439- Then
 
 38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Esq. 439. Then j'our observation does not apply to large towns r 
 , ,, , „^ Not so much so. 
 
 3d March 1863. 
 
 440. Or where they are liable to fall into bad company? 
 
 No ; the prisoners in towns have much greater ditficulty in getting emplo}'- 
 ment, partly because the great majority of servants are obliged to be in-doors 
 (their work being in-door work) ; and also, partly because men in the same 
 factories will not work with them. There is a very strong prejudice in the 
 minds of workpeople in towns against working with men who have been in 
 l^rison. I do not think there is the same prejudice in the country, as far as 
 my observation goes. I think that agricultural labourers liave no objection to 
 a man being employed as a carter, or what not, in the same employ as them- 
 selves, if he has been in prison. They look more charitably upon those things 
 in the country ; but in towns it is extremely difficult for men who have been 
 in prison to get into any employment. 
 
 441. Viscount £uer5/('j/.] But that does not apply equally to prisons under 
 the separate system and under the associated system r 
 
 Certainly not, equally ; but taking the separate system prisons in the rural 
 districts and those in towns, the prisoners on their discharge from the former 
 would get into employment much sooner than those discharged from the 
 latter. 
 
 442. There is less reluctance to employ a man who has been confined in a 
 prison under the separate system r 
 
 Yes, both in towns and in the country. 
 
 443. Earl CathcartS] But outward good conduct in prison is not any proof 
 of moral reformation, is it .' 
 
 Certainly not. 
 
 444. Marquess of Salisburij .'] Are not the best conducted prisoners very 
 often the worst criminals ? 
 
 Those who have been in prison many times learn to conform to the rules at 
 once, and they have very few reports against them. The men who are in for 
 the rirst time, and who are therefore less guilty probably than the others, are 
 more intolerant of control and more irritable, and more inclined to fall out 
 with the officers, and to get into trouble, than the old experienced hands who 
 have been in often. 
 
 445. Have you had any opportunity of judging which is preferable, a short 
 and severe confinement or a long confinement r 
 
 I think that confinement may ])e too long ; one great advantage which 
 was proposed to the public from the adoption of the system of separate con- 
 finement was that the sentences would be shorter, that much more good 
 might be effected in a given tinie by that system than by the old system, and 
 that therefore the sentences might be shorter, but I do not think that that is 
 very much the case, as far as my obsei'vation goes. There are as long sentences 
 passed now as there were in the time when tlie prisons were upon the asso- 
 ciated SA'stem. I tiiink that it is better to give a smart sentence at first than 
 to send a periron to prison just long enough to learn that it is not so terrible a 
 place as he expected. It is better to keep him there for some time at some 
 inconvenience to himself, and also for the purpose of instruction, especially if 
 he is young : but the system of control which is necessary in different i)risons 
 is very different, and the sentences required are very different also, because the 
 people who come into the London prisons ai'e a great deal more knowing in 
 crime tlian those in the country ; and many of the men in country prisons are 
 hartlly criminals in intent at all. 
 
 446. Lord Wodehovsie.'] May I ask what is the exact meaning of the expres- 
 sion which you have just used, "criminals in intent?" 
 
 I mean that they are not criminals by profession, but persons who have rather 
 been le:l to commit small robberies from the want of something just at the moment, 
 and not concerted robberies ; the men have seldom been associated with others 
 in their offences. 
 
 447. L^pon what experience do you found that opinion, because it would 
 seem to me that, generally speaking, the majority of crimes committed are by 
 
 persons
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 39 
 
 persons who are in the habit of thieving and not pui-suing any other j. G. Perry, Esq. 
 
 avocation ? 
 
 There is a very large class who begin as poachers, and get into idle habits, '^^ March 1SG3. 
 those idle habits lead to crime indirectly, by making it easier for them to 
 get the means of satisfying their desires by theft than by labour ; they get out 
 of the habit of labour, and they find that theft, even with all its risks, is 
 much better to their mind than going through a regular course of toil. 
 Those men, I mean, are mere thieves from idleness ; but in the towns it is 
 a regular trade to which people are educated. 
 
 448. What I understand you to mean is this, that you would divide criminals 
 into two classes — what may be called criminals by profession, and ci-iminals 
 from idleness. 
 
 Yes. 
 
 449. Marquess of SaU.sbttn/.] Does not the greater part of the crime in the 
 rural districts arise from the long score at the back of the beerhouse door? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 450. In your opinion, which part of the imprisonment does the prisoner feel 
 most deeply, the first part or after a certain period : 
 
 The first part generally. 
 
 45 1 . Prisoners I presume have told you that very often ? 
 
 Yes, they have ; and it is a very remarkable observation, especially with 
 regard to bo3's, that they will cry for a few days after they come to prison, and 
 be very much distressed, but afterwiirds they get as indifferent as the older 
 criminals. 
 
 452. Then they become hardened to it at last, and they become very indif- 
 ferent about it ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 453. Is not that in a great degree the occasion of the preference which is 
 shown by vagrants to pass the winter months in gaol ? 
 
 Yes, I suppose it is ; it is quite a part of their system in the inclement part 
 of the year to go to prison. 
 
 454. Earl Cathcait.] It is commonly said that prisoners return to prison 
 because they like it, but that has not been your experience ? 
 
 No, I do not think so at all. 
 
 4.55. Do you think that when prisoners commit crime they think they will 
 be detected ; do not you rather think that it is the chance of impunity which 
 leads them on r 
 
 Yes ; no man takes into account the punishment which he will endure, 
 because he does not expect that he will be discovered. 
 
 456. Criminals generally hope to escape in some way, do they not ? 
 Certainly ; the idea that prisoners like coming to prison has originated from 
 the workhouse offences. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, 
 
 One o'clock. 
 
 (37. 1.) E 4
 
 [ 41 ] 
 
 Die Jovis, o"" Martii 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT: 
 
 Duke of Maelborough. | Earl Cathcart. 
 
 Marquess of Salisbury. ! Earl of Ducie. 
 
 LoKD Ste^vakd. I Earl of Dudley 
 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 Earl of RoMXEY. 
 
 Lord WODEHOUSE. 
 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair. 
 
 — — Evidence on 
 
 Prison Discipline. 
 
 JOHN GEORGE PERRY, Esquire, is again called in, and further examined, J. G.Perry, Esq. 
 
 as follows : , ,7~~T c,r 
 
 5ih March ;Sf)3. 
 
 457. Lord Steward.'] I think you stated to the Committee on Tuesday, that 
 you thought it better that one of the inferior officers or warders should be pro- 
 moted to the office of governor of a prison, rather than that a military officer, 
 inexperienced in the management of gaols, should be appointed to that office ; 
 and you stated that the warders were chiefly selected from amongst pensioned 
 soldiers and men of the labouring class in the neighbourhood ; are the Committee 
 to understand that it is your opinion that the experience gaint'd by men of that 
 class more than counterbalances the advantage arising from the superior education, 
 cultivated minds, and habits of command which military officers may be supposed 
 to possess ? 
 
 Tije pensioned soldiers whom I alluded to are seldom employed in county and 
 borough gaols ; persons in the neighbourhood are generally employed (I did 
 not mean to imjily that they were of the class of labourers), and I meant merely 
 to say that where an officer had served long in a gaol, and was qualified to take 
 the office, I thought he ought to be rather jjreferred ; because he is acquainted 
 with the discipline of the prison, or of prisons generally, and also because it 
 would be an encouragement to other good officers to see that they had a chance 
 of rising to the first appointment. But, cceicris paribus, supposing the two persons 
 had had equal experience, or study of the subject, I, of course, do not consider 
 that a man of inferior education would be preferable. 
 
 45 S. What I asked you was, whether you thought the experience acquired by 
 those men as warders counterbalanced the advantages of education, and so forth, 
 which are possessed by military officers? 
 
 1 think that their experience in the prison, and their habit of rule over those 
 below them (for many have been raised to be chief warders or deputy governors, 
 and have thus had the means of showing their fitness for positions of command), 
 would render them very fit for the higher office ; and there are a great many very 
 striking instances which I could name in the district over which I have inspection, 
 of officers who have risen from the ranks in that way, and who have made most 
 excellent governors. 
 
 4,)g. Earl Cathcart.] Is it not your opinion that it is very desirable that a 
 j)erson who is called upon continually to be in confidential communication with 
 the Visiting Justices should be a jierson with gentlemanlike feelings and views.- 
 
 That is an additional recommendation, no doubt ; but I do not know that it is 
 equal to the recommendation of diligence and knowledge of his duties, and, in 
 
 (37.2.) F feet,
 
 42 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Esq. fact, it is not equal in value to the quality of condescenrling to look after the 
 
 i\l"~~h 8P work of tiie prisoners. A gentleman who has long been in a high position is 
 
 ^ ^' '"^ ^ ^' very little likely to exert himself, and to take much pains in pushing the work of 
 
 the prisoners on, or in obtaining a sale for it, and so forth ; and in many respects, 
 
 therefore, a man of inferior position may be better. 
 
 460. Earl of Alahneshury,'] In. fact, you appear to prefer practical experience 
 to polished accomplishments ? 
 Yes, I do. 
 
 4(11. Chairman.^ We will proceed now to consider tlie question of hard 
 labour. The treadwheel, I presume, is one of the engines which is most in use 
 in prisons ? 
 
 Yes, it is, perhaps, the most in use ; although it has been discontinued in a 
 great many prisons, and superseded by trades and different forms of industrial 
 labour. 
 
 462. Can you put in 'any returns which will specify those prisons in which the 
 treadwheel is still in use, and those in which it is disused ? 
 
 Since I heard that the obtaining of information upon that point was likely to 
 be the desire of the Committee, I have made a rough return of it, which is not 
 fit at this moment to be put in, but from which I could answer any questions 
 which the Committee might wish to put to me. 
 
 463. Perhaps you will put it in at a later period of the inquiry r 
 Yes, I will do so. 
 
 464. Speaking generally, what are the number of working hours during 
 ■which the treadwheel is in motion with reference to each individual prison ? 
 
 That would depend very much upon the size of the treadwdieel, and the number 
 of prisoners who may be sentenced to hard labour. Supjiosing that the tread- 
 wheel will hold 20 at a time, there will be 40 men employed ; that is, 20 on and 
 20 off, with the interval of rest ; and if there were only 40 prisoners in a gaol 
 sentenced to hard labour, they might work for six or eight hours a day ; but if 
 the number very far exceeds the space upon the treadwheel, of course they can 
 only work for shorter periods in proportion. 
 
 465. Can you state what is the case generally ? 
 
 I think, generally speaking, they work six hours at least, or perhaps sometimes 
 eight ; but it varies in tlie winter months and in the summer months on account 
 of the daylight. 
 
 466. Are those six and those eight hours subject always to the relief whicii 
 you just alluded to ? 
 
 Yes, always ; but in varying proportion. 
 
 467. In your opinion, is one-half of the time the proper relief which is 
 necessary r 
 
 It is quite enough. 
 
 468. Is it too much r 
 
 Judo-ing from the practice in some prisons, I should say that it is ; sometimes 
 they are off a quarter of an hour, but different men, according to the habits of 
 their iirevious lives, arc more or less qualified to perform the action of the tread- 
 wheel. One man who may have been employed in a sedentary occupation, such 
 as that of a shoemaker or a tailor, may be almost killed by that which is very easy 
 labour, and almost a pleasant exercise, to a vagrant who has tramped about the 
 country all his life, and who can walk his 30 miles a day. 
 
 469. But, taking the average of jjrisoners who work upon the treadwheel, do 
 you consider that a relief of one-half of the total time is necessary ? 
 
 Yes, I think, taking the average, it is necessary. 
 
 470. Earl of Dudley.'] Do you mean a cpiarter of an hour on and a quarter of 
 
 an hour oft"? 
 
 Yes, or 20 minutes on and 20 minutes off; the time varies in different prisons. 
 
 47 J . I suppose where the treadwheel has been done away with, and this hard 
 labt)ur does not exist, when a prisoner is sentenced to hard labour, you think it is 
 a mere form without any meaning of any kind 'I 
 
 In
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 43 
 
 In order to answer tliat question, one must commence by defining bard J. G. Pc.ry.Eiq. 
 
 labour. 1 do not tbink tbat tbe nature of tbe labour makes it hard so much as , 
 
 tbe amount of labour performed. It may be hard labour to break stones, provided ^'^ ^larch 1863. 
 a very large amount of stone is required to be broken up in a day, or it may be 
 even hard labour to make sliirts, provided a great many hours are employed at it. 
 On the contrary, it may be very easy labour to work on the treadwheel, provided 
 persons are only on it for an hour or two in the day. 
 
 472. Cliairiiian.'] Generally, I understand from your answers that there is a 
 considerable discrepancy as to the number of hours which the men are employed 
 upon tbe treadwheel ■ 
 
 Yes, necessarily so. 
 
 473- ^^ ill J^^ ^^ good enough to state what is the height of the steps in the 
 different treadwheels employed in the different prisons, or whether there is any 
 regular height ? 
 
 I have found some which differed a little from the mean, judging by my eye, 
 but I tbink the difference is very slight indeed ; they are made very much upon 
 the same models. 
 
 4. How many steps are there which are trodden in a minute ? 
 1 am hardly prepared at this moment to answer that question. 
 
 t/ 
 
 47.5. Are you prepared to say that there is a general arrangement as to the 
 number of steps on most of the treadwheels ? 
 
 No ; the same treadwheel will work differently at different times, according to 
 the number of persons on it, and the strength of the resistance. For instance, a 
 treadwheel which grinds corn, where the supply of com is very small, will work 
 more rapid! v with the same number of men than where the supply is large. On 
 the other hand, treadwheels which do no productive work at all, but which are 
 merely resisted by a spring, will work more rapidly or less rapidly according to 
 the number of persons who are placed upon the wlieel. 
 
 476. But in general are there the same number of steps to every wheel ? 
 Yes, generally 24. 
 
 477.. And in general are the steps of equal height r 
 i'es, generally eight inches. 
 
 478. What is the total number of steps, under ordinary circumstances, which a 
 prisoner ascends bv the hour ? 
 
 About 1,440. 
 
 479. (';m you state whether there are any fixed number of revolutions of the 
 wheel either by the liour or by the day in all prisons r 
 
 In most prisons they aim at a fixed number; but, as I have mentioned just 
 now, the deviations may be considerable under the circumstances which I 
 described, according to the greater or smaller resistance, and the greater or smaller 
 number of men upon the wheel. 
 
 480. Is the machinery in the construetion'of the wheels uniform as a general 
 rule? 
 
 No, not quite so ; some are better made than others; some have a jumping 
 motion, which indicates that the cogs are not equally well made. 
 
 481. Is the principle of construction the same r 
 Very much the same. 
 
 482. Does the action of the wheel, as applied to the prisoners, vary in duration, 
 either in summer or in winter, with regard to the rate of motion ? 
 
 J\0j I think not in the rate of motion,||but the duration of the labour varies. 
 
 483. Duke of Alarlborough.'] Does the amount of exertion required depend 
 upon the relative diameters of the wheel .-^ 
 
 Not altogether; as those accustomed to the work wait for the step to come to 
 them, whereas the inexperienced prisoners raise their feet, as in ascending stairs. 
 
 484. The greater the diameter of the wheel the greater the leverage, and 
 consequently the greater the ease witli which it would be turned ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 (37. 2.) K 2 4S5. Are
 
 44 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Esq. 485. Are you aware wliether, as n rule, the same diameter of wheels is o-enerallj 
 5th March 1863. adopted in all cases ? 
 
 ^es, I think It IS generally five feet ; I think they have been copied one from 
 
 another, and there is scarcely any perceptible ditference in them. 
 
 4S6. Earl Calkcart.] Are you not aware that, in the rules of the Secretary of 
 State, it is laid down that there shall be no more than 12.000 feet, and that they 
 have never ])een able to carry out more than half of that, and that the meii 
 cannot stand it r 
 
 I am informed that at Cold Bath-fields prison each man performs 15 spells of 
 720 steps, making 10.800 steps in the day. 
 
 487. Is it your impression that tlie 12,000 feet was ever performed at any 
 time ? 
 
 I am told by the Governor that in the county prison of Worcester the number 
 is still greater, even amounting- to 12,240. 
 
 4S8. Chairman.] Are the majority of the treadwheels in your district applied 
 to any productive jmrpose ? ' 
 
 "i es ; the majority of them are so applied, if we reckon among the productive 
 purposes the raising of water ; there are nine that are applied to the grinding of 
 corn. 
 
 48;;. Is there any difficulty, looking at the construction of the treadwheel, in 
 its being applied to the grinding of corn ? 
 None whatever. 
 
 490. Are there partitions on most of the wheels ? 
 
 "ies, there are now; when I was first acquainted with prisons, 20 years ago, it 
 was very uncommon to see them partitioned, but they have been gradually im- 
 proving in that respect, and there ai-o very few now which are not so, except in 
 the smaller and more insignificant prisons. 
 
 4ui. Do you believe that the partitions, accompanied with a moderate super- 
 vision on the part of a disciplinary officer or two, is sufficient to prevent commu- 
 nication between the prisoners ? 
 
 Yes, to any considerable extent. 
 
 492. Marquess of SaH4>ii7'ij.'\ You stated, did you not, that there is an incon- 
 venience with regard to grinding corn ; tliat at ditierent times the pressure of the 
 wluei is unequal ? 
 
 I did not mean to be understood as applying that only to the grinding of corn ; 
 but I mean that wlion wheels are ill-constructed, and the cogs are une(juai in 
 size, a jum|)ing motion takes place ; and with respect to the ra]U(lity or slowness 
 of the motion, that depends upon the degree of resistance, whether it be from 
 grinding corn, or from any other cause. 
 
 49.-;. Is iliL'rc not machinery in most well-conducted wlieels that would either 
 increase or diminish the resistance accordnig to the luimber of persons on the 
 wheel 'i 
 
 Yes, there is generally a lever which may be tightenod or otherwise when the 
 resistance of the stones or the pump is insufficient ; l)ut it cannot be expected that 
 that should be continually watched by an ofiicer, or that an officer should be 
 always competent to judge when it requires to be tightened. 
 
 494. Is not that regulated by the number of prisoners who are \mt upon tlie 
 wheel ■<" 
 
 Yes. I have said tluit that is one of the elements whieli determines the rate of 
 motion : the weight on the wheel and the degree of I'esistance. 
 
 495. Does it not make it a more equal ])unishment if the wdieel is employed 
 without any actual profit in the labour, than if it is ada])ted to grind corn ; and 
 does not that make it a more average amount of labour, and more ecpial in its 
 operation ? 
 
 I think that wheels that grind corn, if they are carefully watched and well sup- 
 plied with corn, work quite as evenly as any other. 
 
 49O Earl
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 45 
 
 406. Earl of Royviey.'] That would be the business of the milk'r, would it /. G. Perry, Esq. 
 
 not .' 
 
 Exactly so. 5th March .863 
 
 4917. .And lie could put the corn into a mill, lliougli loaded with prisoners, 
 just as easily as lie could do it into mills turned either by wind or water? 
 .- Yes. 
 
 498. Marquess o'i Salhlmry.'] If there is an absolute power of regulation where 
 no work is done, and there is not an absolute power of regulation where work is 
 done, of the two would not the more ocpial motion he where there is no work 
 done ? 
 
 It seems to me tliar, there is an aljsolute power of regulating it in either case; 
 either in tlie case of grinding corn, by keeping it equally supplied, or in the case 
 of mechanical resistance, by kee|iing it evenly screwed up. 
 
 409. Earl Cathcart.l There is a screw, is there not, which regulates the speed ? 
 Yes. 
 
 500. The motive ]))wer of the treadwheel is the weight of the prisoners upon 
 it, and not their exertion r 
 
 Just so. 
 
 501. Are you aware that in many instances the treadwheel has been given up 
 altogether as a means of punishment ? 
 
 Yes, in many instances. 
 
 .502. Do you think it is a desirable mode of infliction of hard labour ? 
 I do not ; I tliink it is very undesirable, on account of the inequality of its 
 operation upon different prisoners. 
 
 503. Doctor Trail, the Professor of Medical Jurisprudence in the University of 
 Edinburgh, has lately written a work upon the subject of medical jurisprudence, 
 in which he expresses this opinion. He first states that the treadwheel is a con- 
 trivance by ^^■hich united weight puts the wheel in motion; and he objects to it 
 njion the same grounds that you do, namely, with regard to its inequality ; he 
 says it is nothing to an active man, but to the sedentary it is a grievous punish- 
 ment, giving intolerable pains in the legs anrl tlie spine ; do you concur in that 
 opinion ? 
 
 I do entirely. 
 
 504. Then he goes on to say that it is an exceedingly cruel ]mnishment to 
 inflict upon females in regard to the female constitution ; that it induces female 
 complaints, such as prolapsus, and other complaints of that kind ? 
 
 No doubt ; but it has been discontinued entirely in my district with regard to 
 females. 
 
 505. Earl of Dvdley.'] Did not I rightly understand you to say that you think 
 that it ought not to be done away with I 
 
 No ; I think it is a very bad and unequal mode of punishment. 
 
 506. But you stated that in some prisons it had been done away with, and did 
 you not add that you thought it ought not to have been done away with ? 
 
 I am an advocate for doing away with it altogether Avhen its place can be 
 supplied by industrial labour. 
 
 507. Earl Cathcart.] Do you not think that a prisoner gets so habituated to 
 the use of the treadwlieel, that it becomes a very slight punishment to him r 
 
 Even from the beginning it is a very slight punishment to those who have been 
 accustomed to it. 
 
 508. Did you ever hear that some prisoners dislike the Sunday for this reason, 
 that they are without the treadwheel on that day r 
 
 I never heard of it ; it has never come within my own observation. 
 
 509. Chairmnn.'] Are the Committee to understand you that one of your 
 objections to the use of tlie treadwheel is the inequality of the amount of punish- 
 ment which it imposes in different prisons r 
 
 No, I meant as regards diflerent prisoners. Allowing for accidental deviation 
 (37.2.) F3 it
 
 46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Pernj, Esq. jt is much the same in different prisons, but I mean that it is a much more severe 
 
 , ,, T „„ punishment to some individual prisoners than to others. 
 5th March 18O3. ^ "^ 
 
 510. In that case is there not the same inequality in almost everj'^ punishment 
 
 that you can impose ? 
 
 No, because in other punishments the labour of tlie prisoner can be proportioned 
 
 to his powers. 
 
 511. Earl of Dndley.~\ Why may that not be done here ? 
 Because they all work alike upon the tread wheel. 
 
 ,51l'. What is the gaoler for l)ut to see what a man is capable of, and propor- 
 tioning- his work accordingly ? 
 1 mean while they are at work. 
 
 513. There would be very few men who are not capable, by their constitution, 
 of going on to the wheel at all in performiug their sentence ? 
 
 But the question is, who is to be the judge ; the gaoler cannot judge, on 
 account of the very great dithculty there is of distinguishing between true and 
 feigned complaints on the part of the prisoners. 
 
 .514. Still every gaoler has eyes in his head, and he sees exactly how a man is 
 built, and he knows what is his general character when lie comes in, whether he 
 is a man such as you speak of, or whether he is a man wlio has been accustomed 
 to sedentary work ? 
 
 The surgeon would have to judge of that. I do not think that you could trust 
 an uninstructed gaoler. 
 
 .515. But, generally speaking, our gaolers are not uninstructed, are they? 
 I mean uninstructed in medicine ; the surgeon would examine the state of tiie 
 prisoner's circulation, which the gaoler would not understand. 
 
 S 16. He has the surgeon by his side to help him in such judgment, has he not ? 
 The surgeon is not always present; but when he is wanted, he would be sent for. 
 
 517. Earl oi Romney.~\ In a gaol where the sentence of hard labour has to be 
 carried nut uj)on the treadwheel, if the keeper were to exercise any discretion, 
 such as is now suggested, would he not be violating the rules of the prison ? 
 
 Yes; and he would be encouraging complaints on the part of the prisoners, 
 which it would be very difficult to scrutinize exactly. 
 
 5 I 8. Mould he not be actuallv assuming a discretion which he has no right to 
 do .' 
 
 Certainly, under the present law. 
 
 ,5 1 q. Earl of Dudley.'] Does not the gaoler of every prison exercise that dis- 
 cretion every day or hour of his life ? 
 Yes, by the surgeon's recommendation. 
 
 .520. If the surgeon is not present, does not he take it upon himself to take a 
 man off the wheel if he thinks him incapable of performing the work, and there- 
 fore is not tiiat a discretion which is exercised by every gaoler every hour in 
 which the mill is going I 
 
 1 think he does sometimes ; but he cannot always judge of the necessity. 
 
 521. Earl Cathcart.] You mean to say that it is exceptional where indulgences 
 are given to [jrisoners ? 
 Yes. 
 
 52'2. Supposing you were to make the gaokn- a sort of dictator, and to put it 
 into his power to administer a harder punishment, or a less severe punishment, 
 you would be giving him the authority of a ju(lg(>, would you not? 
 
 Yes; I think it would be vcry^objectionabe, and could not be carried out prac- 
 tically. 
 
 523. Are you aware that at this moment the surgeon has not the power of 
 decreasing a' ration, but he has the jiower of incnasing it .' 
 
 ^'cs, except in the case of sickness. With regard to a question which was 
 put to me a short time since, I should like to say, that I liave repeatedly 
 examined men who have complained of their inability to work upon the wheel, 
 
 and
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 47 
 
 and wbo had not been believed, and in some instances I have found very advanced ./. G. Perry, Etq. 
 disease of the heart in those men. 
 
 524. Earl of Dudkj/.'] Where was the surgeon all this time ? ' 
 
 Probably the case had not been brought before him. 
 
 525. But you state that the man complained? 
 
 Yes, to the warders, and thoy would consider that he was shamming, and wished 
 
 to avoid the \\ ork. 
 
 • 
 
 526. Karl Cathcart.'] Is not shortness of breath, in going upstairs, a great 
 symptom of heart complaint, and a most alarming one ? 
 
 It is one of the earliest symptoms. A man with the smallest disease in 
 his heart, \\ orking on the tread-wheel for a quarter of an hour, would come 
 off with a very rapid pulse, but before the surgeon could see him his pulse 
 might have subsided, and the surgeon might not recognise the source of his 
 complaint. 
 
 527. Earl of D«,/%.] But the gaoler would naturallv send for the surgeon at 
 the right moment, if he was not present, when the man was at work ? 
 
 If he were to do so, the surgeon might be absent. 
 
 528. Does not the surgeon, when he is called in, and declares that the man is 
 not capable ol the hard labour which is imposed upon him, virtually free him from 
 any more ? 
 
 Ves, he does. 
 
 529. As a rule, through your district, do you find that there are very many- 
 men who have sufti'red from being compelled to work upon the wheel ? 
 
 Yes, 1 have seen them several times. 
 
 530. Are there many men who have really suffered bodily pain from being com- 
 pelled to work upon the wheel ? 
 
 Undoubtedly. I have seen such cases. 
 
 531. You do not tell me that there are manj'^ of them r 
 
 Yes, I have seen many of them ; but I am speaking now from an experience of 
 20 years. I do not mean to say that they are cases that I meet with every day. 
 
 532. Earl Cathcart.'] Are you aware that a number of men are never put upon 
 the wheel at all, because of their physical incapacity for that species of labour ? 
 
 Yes ; and in their case the sentence of hard labour is virtually abrogated. 
 
 ^■^2>- Are you not aware that in military prisons every man before he is 
 employed upon shot-drill is examined previously, to ascertain whether he is fit for 
 labour I 
 
 Yes, I have no doubt that it is so ; and in common prisons also. 
 
 534. Would there be any difficulty in applying the same principle in civil prisons, 
 and subjecting every man to previous examination, to ascertain whether he is fit 
 for labour ? 
 
 That is done already. AVhen a prisoner comes in, he is always examined by the 
 surgeon, who is bound to make a report in writing as to any disease which he may 
 have brought in with him ; as to the state of his health on admission, and whether 
 he is fit for labour. 
 
 535. Duke of J\Iarlborou(//i.] With regard to this last question, how is it then 
 that cases are found to occur in which a prisoner may have a disease not known to 
 the governor of the prison, and for Avhich the surgeon is not called in to 
 pronounce upon it af the moment, and therefore he may receive injury by the hard 
 labour '( 
 
 The symptoms of disease of the heart in its incipient stages are very obscure, 
 and they do not nuuiilest tliemselves always when the prisoner is in a state of rest; 
 a prisoner may have, for instance, fat deposited upon the heart, which can hardly 
 be called a disease, but yet it would render him incapable of that labour without 
 the risk of i)roducing more serious disease as a sequel. So that as the men on 
 their admission are examined by the surgeon when they are in a state of rest, and 
 the exi)eriment is not made of first putting them on the tread-wheel to see 
 whether it unduly accelerates their respiration and the pulsation of their heart, 
 incipient disease may be very easily overlooked. 
 
 536. ^Do you think that it has so happened that there are cases of frequent 
 (37. 2.) F 4 occurrence
 
 48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G.Perry, Esq. occurrence v.ithin your !:nowledg-e where disease has been as it were brought out 
 
 by means of labour upon the tread-wheel ? 
 
 5tli March 1863. ■ I have no doubt about it at all. 
 
 .537. In frequent cases ? 
 
 Yes, there have been many such cases that have come to my knowledge, and 
 therefore 1 infer that they must be very numerous ; because as I do not watch the 
 treadwheel in any particular prison, and can only speak from my knowledge at 
 the time that I hapjien to visit it, if I discover several cases, I infer that there 
 must be many. 
 
 538. Loj'd Steward.] Are the Committee to understand you to state that, in 
 those prisons in which the usual form of administering hard labour is the tread- 
 wheel, no other form exists by which hard labour could be administered to 
 prisoners who are unfit to be put upon the treadwheel ? 
 
 No, I do not mean that. 
 
 5S9- What I understood you to say was this, that when a man was unfit for 
 hard labour on the treadwheel, the hard labour in his case was virtually abrogated r 
 
 Yes, that is so in the case of persons very decidedly unfit. For instance, if a 
 man on his admission is discovered to have disease of the heart, or a bad rupture, 
 or anything of that kind, they would not put him to any kind of severe labour. 
 
 540. Is there no means by which he could be employed, such as picking oakum, 
 or breaking stones, or anything of that kind ? 
 
 Yes ; that brings me to the very point upon which I wished to speak ; I was 
 speaking of men who on their admission are found decidedly incapable of labour. 
 
 541 . Earl of Dudley. 1 What is there beyond the treadwheel " 
 
 There are many other occupations, any one of which, as I said just now, may 
 be called hard labour, provided it is inflicted in sufficient quantity ; picking oakum, 
 for instance ; if a man is obliged to jiick a large quantity of oakum in a day it 
 becomes hard labour. 
 
 542. But how can you compel him to do it ? 
 By punishing him if he does not do it. 
 
 543. "i'ou can compel him upon the wheel, because he must do a certain number 
 of revolutions, but how can you compel him to pick a certain quantity of 
 oakum r 
 
 You can compel him to do his oakum picking, or mat making, or whatever it 
 may be, by depriving him of his food, and putting him in a dark cell if he 
 refuses. 
 
 544. That very food being only sufHcient to keep him in health? 
 
 Yes, but for a few days he may, without danger to his health, be put into a cell 
 and deprived of a part of his Ibod, being under the daily observation of the 
 surgeon. 
 
 545. Do not they sometimes persist in their obstinacy in spite of the puuish- 
 men t ? 
 
 Yes, there is no question that an obstinate man will sometimes do so. 
 
 546. Then it conies back to my other question, that the treadwheel is the only 
 forced hard labour ? 
 
 No, I do not say that ; on the contrary, I say that any labour is hard which the 
 man is barely able to do. 
 
 547. You have just said that you cannot comj)eI him to ilb it ? 
 
 It now and then happens that a man is so obstinate that he will endure the 
 continued privation of his food rather than do the work ; but those are exceed- 
 ingly rare instances. 
 
 048. Lord Steward.'] You cannot say that in the supposed case hard labour 
 is altogether abrogated ? 
 
 No ; I only say tliat it is virtually abrogated in the case of those who are quite 
 incapable of hard labour. 
 
 549. Are there many cases in which a man is unfitted to pick oakum, or break 
 stones, or lal)i)ur of that kind? 
 
 No; but I think that the misunderstanding of my meaning arises from the 
 
 want
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 49 
 
 want of a true definition as to what is hard labour; some people regard those J.G.Perry, Esq. 
 things only as hard labour in prisons which are different from the hard labour — - 
 
 ])t>rformod by persons out of doors; I do not agree with them, but there is a 5t ti March 18 63. 
 very general ojjinion that unless people are put to work upon the crank mill or 
 the treadwheel, they really do no hard labour; I do not agree with that, 
 because I believe that any kind of labour may be made severe by the amount 
 that is required to be performed. 
 
 550. Duke of Marlhorovffh.] Your definition of hard labour would be con- 
 tinued labour ? 
 
 Yes, for a certain number of hours. 
 
 551. Earl (■athcart.'] With regard to mat making and paper bag making, and 
 those sorts of light labours, do not they usually, as a matter of practice, come 
 ratlier under the head of prison pastimes than hard labour? 
 
 Paper bag making certainly does, but mat making is very severe labour, espe- 
 cially the weaving of matting. 
 
 .-,52. As carried out in prisons, does not it come more under the head of pas- 
 time than of hard labour? 
 
 I certainly think not, as it is carried out for instance in the Coldbath Fields 
 prison, and in the Wakefield prison, and iu many others that I could name where 
 a stij)ulat(^d amount of labour is performed by the prisoners, in which prisons it is 
 Aery severe labour indeed; but where they are merely called u})on to occupy their 
 time in doing anything, then no kind of labour is severe. 
 
 553, Earl of Dudlejj.'] Except the wheel? 
 That is not severe to many prisoners. 
 
 5,54. Duke of Marlborougli.^ To bring back the subject to the treadwheel 
 again, have you ever known any cases oi' rupture produced by it ? 
 
 A ju'isoner with a rupture is now never put to it. I do not think that there 
 has been such an insiance in my knowledge for these 10 or 15 years of a man 
 having been put upon the wheel who has been previously ruptured ; and as to the 
 wheel being capable of producing a rupture, although it cannot be denied that 
 any hard labour of that kind might produce it in a person very much predisposed 
 to it, I have never seen such an instance. 
 
 555. Eavl of Da(Ueij.\ You liave never known rupture produced bv the wheel: 
 No. 
 
 .550. You have known it developed by it, but not produced by it? 
 Just so. 
 
 5 -,7. Duke of Marlborough.]^ Have you ever known a case of rupture developed 
 by the wheel ? 
 
 I have known it very much iccrease<l by it. 
 
 55S. That is to say, although the prisoner had been subjected to previous 
 examination by the surgeon, still the surgeon had not been able to detect the 
 rupture at the outset of his confinement, and that rupture has been subsequently 
 developed by the action of the whci 1 ? 
 
 Either it was not detecteti, or the surgeon thought that, it beinu' very trifling, 
 it was no obstacle to the prisoners being put upon the wheel ; but such cases 
 have not occurred, I think I may safely say, in my district for the last 15 years. 
 
 559. Earl Cathcart.'] What is sujiposed, in medical statistics, to be the number 
 of ruptured persons; do you know the per-centage at all? 
 
 I cannot tell the numl)er, but it is very large in that class of life. 
 
 560. Earl of A'o»««fy.] Do not you think that the most ordinary avocations 
 of men out of doors are more likely to produce rupture than the treadwheel? 
 
 Yes. Stooping to lift weights frequently occasions rupture. 
 
 561. Take the case of sailors, masons, carpenters, and all that class of men 
 who have to lift weights, is not their occupation more likely to produce rupture 
 than the treadwheel ? 
 
 Sailors are very subject to it, because they use great exertion sometimes in a 
 bent position of the body. 
 
 ,562. And masons also ? Yes? 
 
 (37.2.) G
 
 50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G Pcrrn, Ei,q. Yes, they are all liable to it ; and more liable to it from their ordinary employ- 
 5th March 1863 i^ents than from the tread wheel. 
 
 563. Earl Cathcart.'] Do not you suppose that picking up heavy shot from 
 
 the ground is exceedingly liable to cause rupture r 
 
 Very much so ; it is exactly the jiosition of the body that is favourable to 
 the production of rupture. 
 
 564. Duke of Marlborough^ You have mentioned some objections to the use 
 of the tread wheel of a physical character, such as rupture in some cases, and disease 
 of the heart in others ; have you any other objections of a physical character to 
 the use of the treadwheel ? 
 
 No. I think those are the physical injuries most likely to be aggravated by it ; 
 there are minor effects, such as pain in the limbs and in the back ; but then, if a 
 man had very severe attack of pain in the back from lumbago, which is not at 
 all uncommon, he ought to be taken off, and he would be taken oft' the wheel 
 immediately. 
 
 565. You are obliged in that case, are you not, to trust to the prisoner's word 
 that he has a pain in the back? 
 
 He would be examined by the surgeon, who would satisfy himself. 
 
 ^66. Would the surgeon detect from any outward appearance whether the man 
 had lumbago in his back ? 
 
 His mode of walking would often betray a fraud if he attempted it. 
 
 567. Earl oi Dudley.'] Is it not the commonest possible thing for them to plead 
 pain, and to try to avoid the wheel ? 
 
 Very common, and, therefore, as it is so difficult to detect it, it is very probable 
 that some real cases are overlooked or discredited, as well as some feigned cases 
 admitted. 
 
 56S. Duke oi Marlborough.'] Does the use of the treadmill involve actual pain 
 to some of the prisoners, not because of any disease existing in them, but from 
 their being rather of a weaker constitution than others ? 
 
 Yes, from their being unaccustomed to walking they have the most intolerable 
 cramps in the legs occasioned by it. 
 
 569. Earl of Dudley.] Do not these wear off after they have become habituated 
 to the exercise .- 
 
 It would take some time to habituate men of sedentary habits to it. 
 
 570. Duke oi Marlborough.] Do you know anything to recommend the use of 
 the treadwheel in a sanitary jjoint of view in giving exercise to the prisoners ? 
 
 No, I do not. 
 
 571. Do you think that the exercise which they obtain upon the treadwheel 
 is not of a character to materially benefit their health, or stand in lieu of other 
 exercise which they would have had, had they been in a condition of liberty : 
 
 There are some men who perform their work very easily, who would find the 
 treadwheels a very salutary exercise, just as walking up hill would be ; but, to 
 the majority, I do not think it is at all so. 
 
 572. Earl Cathcart.] Is not the treadwheel house often very otfensive from 
 tlie foul air and the perspiration of the prisoners ? 
 
 Yes, frequently so. 
 
 573- In that case, the exercise in an unwholesome atmosphere could udt jiossibly 
 have a salutary effect r 
 Certainly not. 
 
 574. Earl of llovmcy.] That is not an argument against the treadwheel, but 
 against having an unwholesome house to work in ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 575. Marquess of ia//5^vf7-_j/.] Is it not the case that those places are always 
 open at the back, or have windows? 
 
 They are often enclosed. 
 
 576. Earl of Maltntsbiiry.] Are the Committee to understand that you object 
 to the treadwheel ? 
 
 1 do object to it. 
 
 577- And
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 51 
 
 .577. And that you would wish to abolish its use ? j-_ q^ Perry, Esq. 
 
 I should. 
 
 5th March 1863. 
 .')78. Earl of Z)M(//t'3/.] Will you state shortly why you object to it ? , 
 
 I object to it on account of the inequality of its operation, on account of 
 
 its injurious effect upon the health of many of the prisoners, and on account also 
 
 of its being, when unproductive, a waste of labour which might be better 
 
 bestowed. 
 
 579. Then the Committee are to understand that you object to it because it is 
 unequal in its operation, and sometimes injurious to the health "r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 580. Duke of Marlborough.] Do you object to the treadwheel in any moral 
 point of view as regards the prisoners ; do you believe that the eifect upon the 
 minds of the prisoners of feeling that they are employed in this particular kind 
 of labour which is supposed to be a degrading kind of labour, and is sometimes 
 also unproductive, has an irritating effect upon the mind, and rather tends to 
 keep up that species of irritation than to make them more open to any better 
 influences which one might wish to bring about whilst they are in prison? 
 
 I have no doubt whatever that the prisoners more cheerfully devote themselves 
 to severe labour when they believe that they are doing good in some way, not 
 only to themselves but to others. The moral effect of that irritation of mind 
 which is produced by all kinds of labour which is unproductive, and therefore 
 which is interpreted by the prisoner merely as inflicted for the sake of punish- 
 ment, is very bad, by keeping up an irritation against the authorities, and in that 
 way opposing itself to the reformation of the prisoners. 
 
 581. Earl Cathcart.] Will you read to the Committee a short portion of your 
 last Report to the Secretary of State upon that subject, in which your deliberate 
 view is expressed in writing ; the passage I refer to, is at page 6 of the introduc- 
 tory letter to the 27th Report ? 
 
 " The advance which has been progressively taking place in the substitution 
 of productive labour for that which was merely punitive, has been attended with 
 all the beneficial results anticipated by those who had the best means of forming 
 an opinion on tlie subject. Besides the general amelioration of character obser- 
 vable in prisoners trained to habits of productive industry to which they had been 
 previously u!)accustomed, subordination has been, so much better maintained, that 
 corporal punishment for prison offences has almost entirely ceased iu prisons on 
 the separate system ; except in those in which hard-labour crank mills, grinding 
 nothing, continue to take the place of employments of a useful character. It is 
 instructive to contrast in the returns on corporal punisliment, presented to Parlia- 
 ment iu the Sessions of I860 and 1861, the 136 floggings inflicted for obstinate 
 resistance to discipline, in the prisons of Salford, jNIanchester, and Wandsworth, 
 in which unproductive crank laljour is resorted to, with the aggregate number of 
 four such punishments which have taken place in tliose of Liverpool, Wakefield, 
 and Holloway, in the same period ; the discipline in those last-named, being con- 
 ducted without recourse to any but useful industry." Perhaps I may add, that 
 I am entirely of the same opinion now that I was when I wrote that passage. 
 
 582. Chamnan.l There is another form of punishment, is there not, which 
 sometimes is concurrent with the treadwheel, and sometimes apart from it, which 
 is known by the name of cranks, and which is common in many gaols ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 5S3. There are tAvo forms of crank commonly in use ; one the cellular cran k 
 or a crank which grinds nothing but air, and the other, a crauk with one long 
 shaft or bar, at ■\\hich many prisoners may be employed at the same time? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 .584. Can you state whether there is any difference in the degree of hard 
 labour imposed hy tlie two cranks : 
 
 Tlie crank which your Lordship alludes to first, is what is called the hard- 
 labour crank, which grinds nothing ; in fact, the labour there is regulated gene- 
 rally by a screw or by a Aveight, and therefore, according to the tightness of the 
 screw or the amount of the weight, the labour would be increased." With regard 
 to the other kind of crank, that is generally applied to pumping water. The 
 
 (37.2) g2 labour
 
 52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Eiq. labour imposed by the hard-labour crank may be nil ; it may amount to nothing 
 
 more than the force required to turn the handle, or it may be made intolerable 
 
 5th March i 3- by increasing the tightness of the screw ; therefore it is impossible to conijiare 
 that with the otlier kind of labour. 
 
 585. The amount of pressure is optional; in point of fact at the discretion of 
 the governor, is i t not 'I 
 
 Yes. 
 
 586. Does the governor or the surgeon superintend tlie amount of pressure 
 which is applied by means of the screw ? 
 
 I think the governor or tlie warders attend to that. 
 
 5S7. Is it graduated to what is supposed to be the strength of each individua 
 man ? 
 
 Yes, it is pretended to be so; it cannot be done very exactly. 
 
 588. In general, is there an index in siglit of the prisoner? 
 
 Sometimes it is in sight of the prisoner, and sometimes outside tlie celi. 
 
 ,589. Does that index register the amount of Mork done, and the time in whicli 
 it is done ? • 
 
 Yes, it registers the number of turns since the index was set to zero. 
 
 .iQO, Do you think it is desirable that it should be in the sight of the prisoner? 
 
 I think the instrument so very objectionable in every respect, tliat I do not 
 think it would make it tolerable to make any chan^e in it ; i think the whole 
 principle of it is objectionable, and it has bt en found so, and has been discon- 
 tinued in a great many prisons. 
 
 50 1. Are the Committee to understand that you are now alluding to the 
 cellular crank 1 
 
 Yes, that is the only nne that I am speaking of; there is no index to the 
 other. 
 
 502. Do you see any objection to the use of that crank as a punishment '- 
 I do see very great objection to it. 
 
 593. On whar, ground? 
 
 Fiist, that it is merely harassing, that it is unproductive, and merely intended 
 to inflict suffering, which, ior the reason I mentioned just now, leads to irritation 
 of mind and insubordination and breach of rules, as it did in the Leicester and 
 Birmingham prisons, which formed the subject of an inquiry by a special Com- 
 mission, the results of which inquiry have led to its being discontinued iu mo-t 
 prisons since that time. 
 
 .-'",94. It is not at all events free from the objection of inequality ; is it not per- 
 fectly possible to graduate each of those cellular cranks to a precise scale, and to 
 the strength of the individual ? 
 
 That may l)e done undoubtedly, if the strength can be ascertained, and if the 
 person who regulates it is endowed with sufficient power of observation and suffi- 
 cient humanity. 
 
 595. Must you not in all cases leave a certain amount of discretion both to the 
 governor and to the surgeon, and must you not trust that I hey will be n'.en of 
 humanity and discretion ? 
 
 Yes ; you must in all kinds of labour, iuit in this kind of labour tlie power of 
 secretly or inadvertantly inflicting an additional amount of labour is so great, that 
 it ought not to be trusted in the hands of the warders. 
 
 .596. You say that it ought not to be trusted in the hands of the \varders ; r.re 
 you aware that in the most of those cellular cranks there is a key uhich eiiahks 
 ^ the governor or the surgeon, or one person alone, to regulate the machine, %\ hicli 
 
 places it entirely beyond the control of any chance warder : 
 
 Yes ; but the result of it is, that it is either made so easy of performance 
 that a child might turn tlie handle, or if it is not so, it is made so severe as to 
 lead to resistance on the jiart of the prisoner, or to injury to his health. If it leads 
 to resistance, it leads to a great amount of jjunishment, and as has been shoMn in 
 some instances, even to suicide. 1 am not aware that the surgeon ever assists in 
 
 regulating the cranks. 
 
 597. I understand
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 53 
 
 597. I understand you on the other htind to express a decided preference for ./. G. Pen-,/, Es-i. 
 those cranks wliich are worked bv means of a common shaft ? — 
 
 Yes. ' jtl» March 1863. 
 
 598. Are most of those of one uniform construction? 
 
 No ; they may be divided under two general heads, one in which all the Ijandles 
 are so fixed to the crank, that whatever power may be exerted by the individual 
 prisoners, tlie handle Avili still continue to follow the same gyrations, whether a 
 great deal of force is put to the work, or no fcrce at all. In others it is so con- 
 trived that if a person fails in using a fair amount of labour in turning the crank, 
 the handle falls back upon him, as it were, and clicks, so that the officer who is 
 su[)erintending can tell whether the prisoner is neglecting- his duty or not. The 
 last-mentioned constrnclion may be ver}'^ well seen in the prison at Wandsworth, 
 M'here it was first employed, and it has been imitated in several other pris'jus by 
 my recommendation, 
 
 5q9. Is that Appold's patent crank ? 
 No ; that, is a hard-labour crank. 
 
 600. Duke of Marlborough.] You stated, did you not, that the crank of which 
 you have been speaking, was adopted at Wandsworth in consequence of vour re- 
 commendation : 
 
 No; it was first employed, I believe, in Wandsworth, and afterwards adopted in 
 other prisons by my rtcouiniendation, I having pointed out in my report the 
 advantage of it, and referred the magistrates to Wandsworth to see it in opera- 
 tion. 
 
 601. Did I not understand you to state just now, that yr>\\ considered the whole 
 system of crank labour as entirely objectionable ? 
 
 I am not now speaking of the annroductive hard-labour cranks, but of those 
 cases where crank labour is applied to a single shaft, for the purpose of raising water, 
 to v/hich I do not object. 
 
 60J. Chairman.'] Are you not of opinion, with regard to that first class of 
 cranks to which you have alluded, that there is this serious objection, that one pri- 
 soner may shirk the work which fairly belongs to him, and transfer it, perhaps to 
 his next neighbour, who may be more willing to work r 
 
 Yes ; and therefore I have always recommended that an alteration should be 
 made in the wheel, so as to make it work upon the principle just described. 
 
 603. Assuming that you have a treadmill at work in any prison, and that the 
 system of hard labour is framed upon the use of that treadmill, is it not desirable, 
 in your opinion, also, to have cranks concurrently with the treadmill ? 
 
 I do not understand why they should both be required. 
 
 604. Does not the crank call one set of muscles into play just as the treadmill 
 calls another? 
 
 Yes, exactly so ; and, if it were a mere gymnasium, it would be an advantage to 
 have that diffeience. 
 
 605. Is it not an advantage to have a variety of hard labour? 
 Yes, it is. 
 
 606. Earl Cathcart.] With regard to a modification of the crank, do you know 
 of the gravel hard-labour machine; a crank in which there is a pan of gravel out- 
 side, and a fan revolves in tiiat by means of the crank r 
 
 I have not seen them in use ; I have heard of them. 
 
 607. If those cranks are used, and they are used in many prisons, by putting in 
 a little more gravel, you might almost grind a prisoner to death, might you not : 
 
 Yes. 
 
 608. Is what occurred in BirmingJiam gaol, not very long ago, within your recol- 
 lection, in which some very cruel i)uuishinents were inflicted, v^hicli were entirely 
 unknown for a long time to the visiting justices and to the Crown inspector there ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 009. In your particular district there have been two cases of cruelty which you 
 have reported ; at least one case particularly, with regard to a prisoner who was put 
 in a dark cell, and who was left there for a long time upon very insufficient diet r 
 
 (37.0.) G 3 Yes ;
 
 54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Etj. Yes ; but not as intentional cruelty ; rather as the result of an injudicious regu- 
 
 — lation. 
 5th March 1863. Q^^^ YQ^ mention tliat circumstance in your report, do vou not: 
 Yes. 
 
 61 1. And you also mention the circumstance of a prisoner having been flogged 
 under circumstances in which the provisions of the Act of Parliament were not 
 complied with ? 
 
 Yes, I remember such a case. 
 
 612. With regard to one question which was asked you just now, about the 
 stitTness of the cranks ; a drop or two of oil might make all the difference, might 
 it not, between their working stiffly and their w^orking easily ? 
 
 Yes, it might be so. 
 
 613. I mean that the neglect of cleanliness with reference to oiling the cranks 
 might make them stiH'er than they were originally intended to be ? 
 
 Yes, if they work upon the plan of a spindle. 
 
 6 1 4. Cliairma)i.'\ You object, as I uiiderstand by your answers to the questions 
 which have been put to you, to the inequality of labour wliich is imposed upon 
 tlie different prisoners by the hard-labour cranks ? 
 
 I have stated that it would be possible to exactly regulate it to a man's force, 
 but that practically I believe it would never be done ; first, from the difficulty of 
 ascertaining Avhat his powers are ; and, secondly, from the want of attention on 
 the part of the officers. 
 
 615. Does not the objection of inequality lie against almost every form of hard 
 labour which can be devised ? 
 
 It applies less to tliat kind of hard labour which involves manufactures of any 
 kind, because it is easy for a person who is constantly observing a prisoner to see 
 whether he does his best in producing, we will say, a certain amount of cloth by 
 weaving, or a certain number of mats. 
 
 616. Is not inequality of labour produced by inequality of age, and by inequality 
 of stature, and inequality of physical strength .' 
 
 Certainly ; but a slight man may be much more capable of continued labour 
 than a stout bulky man. 
 
 617. But will not the amount of hard labour, if you have any system of hard 
 labour at all, vary very much with the various conditions of health and strength 
 •whicli belong to each prisoner ? 
 
 Yes ; and for that reason I should prefer all those kinds of labour which can 
 be most certainly regulated with reference to a man's power. 
 
 618. Do not those conditions enter even into trades? 
 
 Certainly ; if you mean to ask whether different persons are more or less 
 capable of exercising different kinds of trades, there is no doubt of that ; but 
 I think it is easier for an observer to tell whether a man does his best in the 
 amount of any product which he makes, than to judge whether he does his best in 
 turning a crank ; a man may complain, and may be thought merely, to use a 
 prison jdirasi', a malingerer ; but when a man is emi)loyed in productive industry 
 it is easy for anybody who is acquainted with that industry, to tell whether 
 he is doing his best in performing it. 
 
 619. But as far as mere facility of perceiving that is concerned, is not the 
 number of revolutions wliich arc marked on the index the most obvious test of 
 whether a man is doing his work or not doiuff it ? 
 
 Yes, hut the question is whether he does it with facility ; one man, much more 
 capable than another, may make a much smaller number ol' revolutions in a day 
 thnn tlie other, because the weak man ujay have more zeal and anxiety to please 
 the authorities than the strong man, and therefore the weak man may work 
 himself to death, while the strong man is doing very little labour. 
 
 620. Duke of MarUwrotif//i.'\ Vou think, therefore, that it is easier to ascer- 
 tain whether a prisoner is actually doing his duly in the work which is set him to 
 do in objects of productive industry than in such things as mechanical appliances, 
 sucii as crank labour or treadwheel labour? 
 
 I do. 
 
 G21. And that if there be any inequality in regard to strength in those des- 
 criptions
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 55 
 
 criptions of labour, as there must be in difFerent prisoners, that would be corapen- j. q, perry Eta 
 
 sated by allowing each a fair amount of work to be done according to what each ' 
 
 prisoner is able to do r 5th March 1863. 
 
 That is my opinion ; I see that practically carried out every day in prisons 
 
 where industrial employments prevail. 
 
 (322. Earl Calhcart.] The detection of malingering is one of the most difficult 
 questions in medical jurisprudence, is it not r 
 Yes, it is so. 
 
 623. Chairman^] What is your opinion of stone breaking as an employment for 
 the prisoners? 
 
 I have no objection to it. 
 
 624. Do you consider it to be a good employment ? 
 Yes. 
 
 625. Does it not keep the prisoners out in the open air? 
 They are generally under sheds. 
 
 626. Earl Cat/icart.] You have already stated in your report, have you not 
 that it does not pay for the haulage } 
 
 Yes ; that is frequently the case. 
 
 627. What is your opinion with regard to picking oakum? 
 
 That it is a very useful employment to those prisoners who, either from their 
 being in prison for a very short time, or from any other cause, are incapable of 
 learning anything better. 
 
 628. Is there not a certain amount of discrepancy in many gaols in the nature 
 of the lab'-ur which is imposed, when you take into account the differences in 
 the quality of the oakum ; is not the quality of the oakum which is picked, 
 different in different (raols - 
 
 Very ditierent. 
 
 629. Does not that create a very wide discrepancy in the amount of labour 
 which picking oakum is supposed to represent ? 
 
 It does ; and it leads to an allowance beinp; made by the authorities. No 
 governor or warder would expect a prisoner to pick the same quantity of junk, as 
 the ro])e is called before it is picked, if it were of a very hard kind, that he would 
 if it were of a softer and more manageable kind. 
 
 630. Then are the Committee to understand from you, that as a general rule 
 the hard labour which is imposed in the different prisons, both in respect of the 
 treadwheel, in respect of the cranks, and in respect of picking oakum, is pretty 
 nearly the same, or that it varies very greatly ? 
 
 The labour of the treadwheel varies in its effect on different persons and in the 
 time for which it is continued ; and there is sometimes a difficulty in getting 
 oakum to be picked, and more frequently in getting the governor to exert himself 
 to buy it. It depends very much upon the activity and zeal of the governors in 
 the different prisons, as to what amount of productive labour is performed by the 
 prisoners ; the governor must exert himself to obtain the work to be done. 
 
 631. \ou are, therefore, of opinion that there are very wide discrepancies in 
 the amount of hard labour as represented by the treadwheel, by the crank, and by 
 picking oakum, in different prisons ? 
 
 Yes, I am. 'J here is a very great difference, but that difference is not a necessary 
 ingiedient in the system ; it would be possible to make prisoners in all the oaols 
 pick nearly the same quantity of oakum under the same circumstances —that is to 
 say, supposing it to be as easily picked ; but, as I have said, there is often not 
 enough to keep them employed. 
 
 ^32. Are you of opinion that it would be possible to reduce those different 
 varieties of hard labour to something like a common and uniform standard 
 tliroughout the different prisons in your district ? 
 
 There must always be a great deal of discretionary power left to the authorities 
 after all rules are made. 
 
 ^33- Would it not be perfectly possible to provide that the construction of 
 every crank and every treadwheel sliould be uniform ? 
 
 The construction might be uniform, but the labour imposed would not be 
 uniform, for the reasons I have mentioned. 
 
 (37. 2.) G 4 034. Would
 
 56 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J.G.Pcrry, E-,q. 634. 'VVoiild you iiot simplif)' to n "reat extent the conditions of the problem 
 
 .i Ai T Qc„ if "^'ou secured a complete uniformity in resoect of the construction of the 
 
 Atli ftlaich 1003. 1.0 
 
 machinery : 
 
 No ; I think that it differs so little that I do not regard tliat as a very im- 
 portant element. The difficulty afterwards would remain of selecting proper 
 persons to perform the labour, and defining tiie j^rojier amount of work to be per- 
 formed by each prisoner ; and there must be much discretion left to the authorities 
 in that respect. 
 
 635. Are you of opinion that it is practically immaterial to have a uniform 
 construction of treadmills and cranks throughout the difl'erent gaols ? 
 
 Their construction is nearly uniform now, but that does not secure uniformity 
 in the labour imposed, because the prisoners differ, as I said before, in their 
 susceptibility of injury from those different kinds of labour. 
 
 636. Therefore the only mode of solving the difficulty, in your opinion, would 
 be to disuse altogether those forms of hard labour in which it is impossible to 
 obtain regularity and uniformity ? 
 
 I think that would be desirable. 
 
 637. You would desire to see the treadmill, the crank, and all machinal forms 
 of hard labour disused ? 
 
 No; that term would include the crank, which I have expressed an approval 
 of, and which is used in raising water ; namely, the crank pump. 
 
 638. That is the only form of machine to which you give your approval, and 
 the only one v\hich you would wish to see in use ? 
 
 There are some other machines which your Lordship has not yet alluded to in 
 use in prisons which I very highly approve of; for instance, the loom for weaving. 
 
 639. But speaking now of what we will call the two forms of hard labour, the 
 crank and the trcadwheel, do you consider it desirable that it sliould be laid 
 down by the Home Secretary, or by the legislature, that those machines are either 
 to be used or disused throughout all the prisons ? 
 
 1 think that at the present moment it would not be possible entirely to dispense 
 with the treadmill ; my observation would a[jply more to the hard-labour cranks, 
 which I think ought to be prohibited altogether ; they are so injurious to discipline, 
 and morally so bad in their eft'ects, that I think they ought to be prohibited by law ; 
 but 1 would not apply the same legal prohibition to the treadmill, for if you were to 
 do that you would do away with the treadwlieels, which are usefully emjiloyed, and 
 you would do away with the power of ]uitting capable people upon them, as well 
 as tliose who are incapable ; but 1 think that wherever they are employed, the 
 strictest means should be used to ascertain the fitness of the prisoners to work upon 
 them. 
 
 640. Can you suggest any improvement, in this respect, on the present 
 practice ? 
 
 Perhaps if the surgeon were required to attend occasionally during the action 
 of the treadwhcol, and to examine the men when they came ofT the wheel, that 
 might be an improvement. 
 
 641. Would not that involve the attendance of the surgeon at the treadwheel 
 for either eight or ten hours a day r 
 
 It would not ; because the number to be examined at a time would never be 
 considerable. 
 
 642. AA'ould not that involve the employment of an additional surgeon? 
 
 It would be convenient that tlie surgeon should be resident, which I think he 
 ought to be in all large prisons. 
 
 643. Would the mere residence of a surgeon within the gaol i-ecure that 
 amount of su])ervision which your answer implies ? 
 
 It would not absolutely secure it without the possibility of error, but it would 
 render the error much less frequent. 
 
 644 You stated in a previous answer, did you not, that three or five minutes 
 subsequent to a pristmer leavingvtlie wheel, it was impossible to detect whether 
 there was any very great variation in his pulsation : 
 
 I cannot have said three or five minutes, because that would not be the case. I 
 
 said
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 57 
 
 said that supposing the surgeon was sent for when the man was taken off the /. G. Perry, Esq. 
 
 wheel, probably before he would arrive, which might not be for some hours, the 
 
 man would cease to exhibit any indication of heart disease. 51 arcli 1 6 3. 
 
 6dS. Looking at the fact that the prisoners are taken off tlie wheel periodically 
 every 10, 15, or 20 minutes, in order to carry out the system of reliefs, would 
 not the personal supcrvi-ion of the surgeon involve his attendance upon the spot 
 during the whole time that the treadwheel was kept in motion ? 
 
 It would frequently happen that only one or two prisoners would require any 
 examination, and the same prisoner would seldom require to be examined more 
 than once. 
 
 646. Duke of Marlborough.'] Does the surgeon attend at the prison every 
 day f 
 
 The rules arc different in different prisons. In all the large prisons, the surgeon 
 is required to attend daily. 
 
 647. Would not it be possible for him to certify in the morning, or whenever 
 he attends, what prisoners could go upon the treadwheel r 
 
 I am su]iposing that thei'e may be only such an amount of disease as he would not 
 discover until the prisoner is put to active exertion ; but it would not be necessary 
 for him to attend all day, because the prisoners are not changed continually ; and 
 suppose that he makes a note when he has examined A. B. on his coming off the 
 wheel, and ascertains that he has no affection of the heart, and that he has previously 
 satisfied himself that he has no rupture, he would be satisfied about that man 
 ever afterwards, unless there was some renewal of the complaint, and then it 
 would be his duty to examine him again. But the manner iu which the surgeon 
 examines prisoners now when they first come in, and have been in a state of 
 rest in the reception cells, for some hours perhaps, before he sees them, is such as 
 to mask any slight amount of disease, and make it very difficult to discover. 
 
 648. But I understood you to say that the best mode of examination, if it were 
 conducted at all, would be, that the surgeon should examine the prisoners after 
 they come off the wheel r 
 
 Yes ; in doubtful cases. 
 
 649. And you also stated, did you not, in answer to the noble Chairman, that 
 you would not recommend the mechanical appliances now existing in gaols to be 
 done away with altogether, because it might be necessary on some occasions to put 
 prisoners on the treadwheel ? 
 
 I would recommend that one kind of labour, which I specified, to be abolished at 
 once, namely, the unproductive hard labour crank. 
 
 650. But you would not recommend the abolishment of treadwheels alto- 
 gether. 
 
 No. I think that, until a better system of productive labour is organised in the 
 different prisons, it would be almost impossible to find any kind of hiird labour for 
 prisoners without the treadwheel in some of the gaols ; but in many gaols the tread- 
 wheel has been given up for years, and the prisoners are employed productively, 
 and in some prisons it has never existed. 
 
 651. Objecting as you do to the use of the treadwheel as a hard labour punish- 
 ment as ageneral rule, in carrying out a portion of'apenal sentence, is it your opinion 
 that it might be retained as a punishment for an infraction of prison rules, or for 
 bad conduct in prison during the time that the prisoners were carrying out their 
 sentence. 
 
 There would be the same objection to that if the persons were physically inca- 
 pactiated frum performing that labour, in which case they could not be put upon 
 the treadwheel as a punishment. 
 
 652. Excluding, of course, those cases where they were physically incapa- 
 citated, would you retain the treadwheel in prisons as a means of punishing pri- 
 soners for an infraction of prison discipline during tlie time that they were in 
 prison, but not applying it as a portion of the punishment to which they were 
 sentenced ? 
 
 In the present state of things, I think it would be quite necessary to retain it 
 
 in some prisons, and this class of persons would be the first to be put upon it ; bat 
 
 (37.2.) H I think
 
 58 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Pern.', Efq. ^ think that in process of time such a system of organised labour might be 
 — - introduced into all the prisons that the tieadwheel would be unnecessary in 
 
 5tb March 1863. carrying out the sentence, and the prisoners under punishment are very few, and 
 could not therefore work it by themselves. 
 
 653. With reference to productive industry, and to some of the inequalities 
 which you stated you felt it to be impossible to overcome in the case of prisoners, 
 when they Avere put upon hard labour as given by mechanical appliances, do not 
 you think it would be much more within the power of the governors of prisons 
 to regulate the amount of labour or of hard labour which should be given to 
 prisoners by modes of productive industry ? 
 
 I think it would be much easier to do so in that way than by mechanical 
 modes. 
 
 654. In fact, the governor, or the warders overlooking the prisoners at work 
 upon any species of productive industry, would be able to see whether they were 
 doing their duty ? 
 
 Yes, I have no doubt that they would. Some of them should be persons them- 
 selves instructed in the trade, and qualified as instructors of the prisoners ; and 
 those persons who are ca|)able of instructing the prisoners are quite capable of 
 judging whether the prisoners are doing their best at the work. 
 
 65.5. Would that involve any great additional expense in prisons: 
 No, because some of the men who are trades-instructors would also be war- 
 ders. There would, perhaps, be some additional expense ; perhaps there might 
 be some extra officers required ; but generally speaking, as in many Government 
 prisons, the trades-instructors would be discipline-warders also. 
 
 (556. Are there any objections which can be reasonably urged against prisoners 
 being employed in productive industry .? 
 
 I think not. 1 have heard of some objections : one, which was entertained per- 
 haps for the longest time of any, was that by employing persons in productive 
 labour in prisons, you were robbing the fair trader outside of his employment ; but 
 it does not appear to me that that is a valid objection, because the persons who 
 are in prisons are of a class who ought to labour if they were outside ; and giving 
 them the means and impulse to labour within the prison, does not seem to me to 
 be any encroachment on the fair traders outside, unless indeed the funds of the 
 county or of the borough were to be used as a capital to enable the county or 
 borough to undersell the fair trader ; that would be extremely injurious, and 
 would raise justly a very great clamour against labour in prisons. 
 
 657. Earl of Dudley.'] Could you refer the Committee to any such case ? 
 
 I do not think I could at this moment, but when I have inquired what things 
 were sold for in prisons, it has once or twice occurred to me to say, " You charge 
 less than the article can be sold for outside," which the governor has admitted ; 
 and I have said, " Do not consider that I sanction this ; I do not sanction your 
 selling things below the market price, because you are using the capital of the 
 county as a trading capital against the small dealers outside," and that has been 
 discontinued ; 1 do not know of any instances at present where that is done. 
 
 658. Do you know any case where the labour is not productive, and where it 
 does not show a return at the end of the year ? 
 
 Yes ; it is sometimes not profitable. 
 
 659. In fact, where it is a loss ? 
 
 It is not a loss if they get a sale for the articles, but there is often a very 
 large accumulation on hand, and there is a cjuantity of capital in that way fre- 
 quently lying dormant; but if they are sold, they are always sold at a profit. 
 
 660. Duke of Marlborcniffh.] Have you known any instances where the labour 
 of prisoners has been contracted for by manufacturers ? 
 
 I have. 
 
 Gfti. And has that answered beneficially ? 
 
 Yes ; that is the general mode which is ado])ted in very large prisons in 
 ■which mat-making is conducted. At Coldiiath-fields and at Holloway, where a 
 very large nundjer of mats are mnde, thev are contracted for by dealers in 
 London, and they arc not sold at all below the market price in those prisons 
 
 where
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 59 
 
 where the labour is not contracted for. For instance, at Reading, where they j. G. Perry, Esq. 
 
 are made for the coiintv and sold for the benefit of the countv, they are not bv 
 
 any means too low-priced. ' ' " -^'^ ^^'"^ '^^'^ 
 
 662. Earl Cathcart.'] Yoa informed us in your last day's evidence, that among 
 practical men there was a general opinion that seimration was essential to prevent 
 the contamination of tlic prisoners ; are you not equally well aware that with 
 regard to the wliole subject of labour, there is among practical men a very great 
 diversity of opinion ; indeed, that the whole question is considered very debatable 
 as to the best mode of industrial hard labour, and also as to the labour question 
 in general ? 
 
 Yes, there is a great difference of opinion upon that point. 
 
 66"^. Earl of Romney.] To go back to a subject which has already been discussed 
 at some length, namely, the putting of men upon the treadwheel, do you not 
 know that the practice is, that when a man is sentenced to hard labour where 
 the treadmill is used, the first thing done is that he is examined by the doctor, 
 who reports whether he is fit or not to be i>ut upon the wheel ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 664. After that, if the man feels himself ill while at work and complains to th 
 turnkey, is it not then the case that they always order him straight to his cell ? 
 
 Yes, if his complaint is thought to be at all well founded. 
 
 665. It is the rule, is it not, that he is taken to his cell in order that then he 
 may be examined by the surgeon as soon as he comes into the prison : 
 
 Ye.s ; but then that examination is liable, as I have said just now, to the 
 objection that it is not made at the time when the symptoms are the most urgent. 
 
 660. Lord Steward.^ Who is the judge as to whether a complaint is well 
 founded or not? 
 
 Generally the superintending officer or the governor. If a man makes a very 
 decided complaint, the governor's attention would be called to it, and his duty 
 would, in my opinion, be immediately to take him off the wheel for examination ; 
 but that it is always done, I do not think I can say, 
 
 ()()7. Earl of Romney.~\ Would not it be, in your opinion, the right course that 
 the man in charge of the wheel should take the prisoner to his cell and report the 
 fiict to the keeper of the gaol ? 
 
 It would. 
 
 66S. Then, supposing the surgeon reports that the man is shamming, he would 
 thereupon be punished, would he not : 
 Yes. 
 
 669. Then, supposing he is put upon the wheel after his punishment is over, 
 and he does the same thing again, do not you think that in all probability, and 
 do you not know', that the surgeon would, on his next visit, go to the wheel and 
 see the man undergoing his work, and have an opportunity of making a closer 
 examination ? 
 
 How the practice may be generally, I cannot say. I think he would be right 
 to do so, and I should feel it my duty, if I were a surgeon, to do that upon the 
 Jirst complaint. 
 
 670. You cannot say what is the course of practice in a well-regulated prison r 
 I do not think it is very common for the surgeon to go and examine persons 
 
 coming off the wheel. 
 
 671. If it comes to this that a man resists, and although he is put in the dark 
 cell over and over again, he continues to carry on a system of imposition, do not 
 you think that before proceeding to flog the man it would be just to require the 
 surgeon to go u]) to the wheel and see the man when he is undergoing labour on 
 the wheel ? 
 
 Yes, I think that should be done. 
 
 672. Before the Visiting Justices woud submit to be foiled by the man, or 
 before they would exercise the extreme powers which they possess, do not you 
 think they would require that the man should be carefully examined ? 
 
 (37.-2.) H 2 ■ Yes,
 
 60 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. P'Tiy, Esq. Yes, I am snre they would : before they ordered a man any extreme punishment, 
 h M~TT 86 they would refer him to the surgeon for examination. 
 
 (")73. Therefore, the real risk is very small: 
 
 Jt would amount to this : that tlie surgeon might examine the man when lie is 
 free from the symptoms, and thus overlook his disease. 
 
 674. That is no more than happens with everything in the world ; the surgeon 
 goes up to the wheel and hears the man's complaint, and then he has the best 
 means possible of testing it, has he not ? 
 
 Yes, I have said already that if he docs that, he would be adopting the right 
 course. 
 
 675. Have you any right to presume the contrary r 
 
 I do not presume the contrary, but I know that it is not always so. A surgeon 
 having examined a man when he was in a quiet state, and failed to discover 
 anything amiss about him, has afterwards had his attention called to him when 
 he has come off the wheel, and has discovered that the man had some disease of 
 the heart. 
 
 (176. With regard to the punishment of the wheel and the crank hard labour 
 you stated that you should like to do away with the crank labour at once, and with 
 treadwheel labour in time, when a better system of productive labour is found out ; 
 what would that better system be ? 
 
 It is difficult to say what it should be in all prisons, because it cannot be the 
 same in all. It must depend very much upon the habits of the people in the 
 neighbourhood : for instance, weaving is a very good employment, and it is now 
 used in many prisons, and it is taught to the prisoners, which involves a consi- 
 derable expense ; but in a county where weaving is the occupation of the ])eople, 
 a man who comes in for a week, or for three days, might be made to weave at 
 once, so that 1 think different kinds of occupation might be selected according as 
 they happen to prevail in the particular neighbourhoods. 
 
 677. Weaving and mat-making are carried on in many prisons now, are they not r 
 \ cs ; there are several prisons in my district in which weaving is carried on, 
 
 and many in which mat-making is carried on. 
 
 678. Is not that the alternative to which a man is put who receives a sentence 
 of hard labour, when the surgeon reports that he is not fit to be put upon the 
 wh eel ? 
 
 Yes, that is the case with many who are quite capable of labour. 
 
 679. Then it is not a better system than that which is in the prisons, because 
 it is already in existence there? 
 
 That is so ; but I wish to see it extended very much. 
 
 ti8o. Then that meets the difficulty in the case of a man who has been sen- 
 tenced to hard labour : if the surgeon says he is not fit to be on the treadwheel 
 because he has some disease, he is then employed in the manufacturing depart- 
 ment of the prison, wherein he works at mat-making, or some work of that 
 descrijition ? 
 
 That is already done in many of the best-conducted prisons. 
 
 t)8i . 'i'licii what is the better system to which you alluded r 
 I mc;an where a good system is more generally organised, and where it is carried 
 further than it is now carried in the best prisons. 
 
 68:2. Duke of Morlborongh.'] In referring to a better system, you do not 
 intend to imply a better system yet to be devised, but the system now in opera- 
 tion being more generally extended ? 
 
 Yes ; perhaps I ought to have said a more complete system. 
 
 6S3. Earl of T^wZ/cT/.] Namely, that of productive labour? 
 
 A system by which different kinds of productive labour should be more extended. 
 
 684. Earl of Ducie.~\ You have expressed a very strong opinion against what is 
 called unproductive labour, and more especially against the hard labour crank, I 
 believe ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 685. And
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 61 
 
 68,5. And the reason that you have given for discontinuing those punishments j . G- Perri/, Esq. 
 
 is, that they produce such a feeh'ng- of irksomeness among the prisoners as to lead 
 
 to insubordination:- 5th March 1863. 
 
 Yes. 
 
 686. Admitting that a certain amount of the reformatory element is practised in 
 prison discipline, is there not also a certain amount of the df^terrent element 
 looked to ? 
 
 Yes ; but I have not so much confidence as many persons have in the deterring 
 power of prison punisliments. 
 
 687. Earl of Dudley.'] Have you confidence in their reforming influence ? 
 
 I tliink that many men are reformed in prison, but I do not think that it often 
 hapj)ens that persons are deterred from the commission of crime by the recol- 
 lection of past suffering ; because, when a man is about to commit an offence, 
 he does not expect to be discovered, and if not delected, he will not be punished ; 
 and therefore he is not very likely to weigh minutely the shades of difference of 
 the punisiiment that he may have gone through in different imprisonments. 
 
 688. Kar! of Ducie.] The change from crank labour to productive labour would 
 be to produce a milder system of punishment, and also one much more palatable 
 to the prisoners, would it not? 
 
 I suppose tiiat it would be more palatable, but, at the same time, it would 
 bring a m;ju's mind into a better state : and although I am far from a'^n-eeino- -with 
 those who would put punishment entirely out of the way, I think that we ouoht 
 to recollect that we are strongly interested in making the pris-oner a peaceable 
 and industrious citizen when he goes out of prison ; and 1 believe that by incul- 
 cating habits of industry in that ]iraetical manner, you will give a man a greater 
 tendency to industrious habits when he goes out than he had before. 
 
 689. You stated, did you not, that there were cases of men having committed 
 suicide in despair at the crank labour ? 
 
 Yes ; the case that brought on the inquiry at the Birmingham Gaol originated 
 in that. \ 
 
 690. But you only know of one case, do you ? 
 
 No, I am not able at this moment to speak of any other case where suicide 
 has actually been committed. 
 
 691. Marquess o\' Satisburj/.'] Are 30a prepared to say that the necessity for 
 imprisonment in general does not make it very desirable that the position of a 
 prisoner in gaol should be worse than that of a common labourer? 
 
 Yes ; but I do not see how that is to be done by the imposition of any kind of 
 labour. Men who work for their living out of doors work to the extent of their 
 strength, and it would be impossible to require more than that from a prisoner. 
 
 692. Y'"ou inade a distinction, did you not, between labour being irksome and 
 not being irksome ? 
 
 That was not a word that I used ; I said that unproductive hard labour was of 
 a kind to stir up all the bad feelings of a man against the authorities, and, there- 
 fore, to produce a deterioration of his moral character. 
 
 693. Then you think that it is disadvantageous ? 
 
 I think that that is the disadvantage of that kind of labour. It mioht be 
 extremely irksome for a man to be emidoyed in productive labour, but it would 
 not be so irritating to his feelings, because he would feel that tiiough he was 
 suffering it was probably inflicted for his good ; but when he sees no result from 
 his labour but what he would consider mere torture to himself, he does not look 
 •with the same respect at the motives of those wiio imposed the labour. 
 
 694. What, in your opinion, is the object of imprisonment with hard labour.? 
 Partly punishment and partly reformation. 
 
 695. Which, in your opinion, ought to hold the first place ? 
 
 Certainly the most important to the community is the reformation of the 
 individual, and if that could be brought about \vithoiit punishment I should be 
 very glad to see such a change ; but I do not see at present how we can produce 
 the reformation of the individual without some admixture of punishment. If it 
 
 (.37.-2.) H 3 could
 
 62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Esq. could be shown, which I think is impossible, that tiie public could gain their 
 ~ object of reforming the criminal without imposing upon him any punishment, 1 
 
 5t aic 1 iL 3. gij^^^jjj ti-,jj^i^ that the highest state of moral advancement and the greatest political 
 advantage to the public had been attained. But in the present constitution of the 
 human mind I do not think that that is possible, and, tlierefore, I think that the man 
 must undergo a certain amount of punishment ; but that is imposed by making- him 
 labour ior the advantage of others without any wages for liimself. if a man who 
 is employed in producing for two years a large amount of work, which would be 
 extremely remunerative to him if he were a free labourer, sees that all tiie ])ro- 
 ducts of his industry go to others, that must be allowed to be a considerable 
 punishment. Then he is deprived of his liberty, which is another yery consider- 
 able punishment ; and without the imposition of actual pain in prison, I think 
 that we do consult the principle of punishment in those two ways, and in the 
 privation of the indulgences to which those men are addicted. 
 
 696. Then your great objection to crank labour without profit, or hard labour 
 without any result from it, is that it is injurious tf) the moral feelings of the 
 prisoner ? 
 
 Yes, and to the possibility of the labour being unequally imposed ; that is 
 another ground of objection. 
 
 697. You have just now stated that it is a grent punishment to a prisoner 
 to be deprived of the profits of his exertions and industry. Do not you con- 
 ceive that that would in some respects be injurious to his moral feelings : 
 
 No, I do not think so ; he would feel that that is a just retribution for what he 
 has done, and he may promise himself that, having acquired the means of produc- 
 tive industry in prison, he may, after his discharge, turn it to a good account, 
 and that he may, therefore, be a gainer by what he has undergone ; but he would 
 not feel that with regard to labour which is simply punitive. 
 
 (iu8. You have stated that the main object of punishment is reformation; 
 therefore, in your opinion, the main object of punishment is not the prevention 
 of crime in others : 
 
 I think that punishment is a means of reformation. 
 
 6ga. You say that reformation is the main object ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 700. And )'ou do not look upon the punishment of crime as any benefit to 
 society at large ? 
 
 I am sorry that I should have been so understood. T say that, in the present 
 constitution of the human character, I think punishment is necessary to follow 
 crime; but I would not impose the punishment simply for the purpose of pun- 
 ishing, but with the view of producing refr)rmation in the individual, so that 
 he might be a more profitable member of society afterwards. 
 
 701. But you do not think that the suffering which is inflicted is any benefit to 
 society at large ? 
 
 I think that society at large are less influenced by it than the criminal himself, 
 and I have already said that I do not think that it produces a very lasting im- 
 pression upon his mind. I think that other persons are less likely to be influenced 
 by the surt'erings of a criminal than the man himself, because they are less 
 acquainted with them. 
 
 702. Then vou repudiate all deterrent influence ? 
 
 I do not repudiate it altogether, but I think that the value of it has been very 
 much magnified by some persons. 
 
 703. Do you moan its value to society, or to the indivi(hial ? 
 
 I think that the public in general attach more value to the deterrent effect of 
 punishment than it deserves; I do not by any means say that it ])roduces no 
 effect upon the criminal or upon others, but I think that the effect has been very 
 much magnified in ])ul)lic opinion. 
 
 704. Do you conceive that the deterrent influence upon society by the 
 infliction of punishment is of no benefit in the prevention of crime - 
 
 I think that it is of some benefit, but I think that the benefit is not so great as 
 is generally supposed ; and looking at the efl'ect of iirisons M'here we have a 
 
 greater
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 63 
 
 greater opportunity of observing it, we find that the greatest resistance to authority, j, q. Perry, Esq. 
 
 and consequently the enduring of greater punishment, takes place where the mode • 
 
 of discipline is the most severe and irritating. A man is not prevented from dis- oth March 1865. 
 
 obeying the rules of the prison by being put into a dark cell once, or twice, or " 
 
 thrice, and sometinn s not l)v being flogged, although he may feel quite sure that 
 his disobedience' will lead to those results ; therefore, that proves how little he is 
 deteired by the fear of punishment. 
 
 705. Do you think that society at hirge are not deterred by the fear of punish- 
 ment ? 
 
 I think that the public are slightly deterred, but as they cannot be acquainted 
 with the full extent of the punishment, I think that they cannot be deterred so 
 much as the individual who undergoes it ; and we see that he is not very seriously 
 deterred, for we find the same man coming into the same prison 15 or 20 times 
 over to undergo the same punishment. 
 
 706. JNIay not tliat be attributed to the punishment not being sufficiently 
 deterrent ? 
 
 I can speak of some instances where persons have been on the treadwheel 
 during the whole time that tliey have been in prison, and some where they have 
 even been flogged, while tiiey have been in prison, for refusing to work, and vvhere 
 they have still come back again. I remember a very remarkable case that I saw 
 at Hertford, and which I mentioned in one of my reports, of a man who had been 
 in a great number of times for poaching, and he had suff"ered the punishment of 
 the treadwheel every time, and he had even been flogged, and yet he came again, 
 and he very frankly siiid, '' Well, sir^ if I can't get a gamekeeper's place after 
 my discharge, I shall be in again." 
 
 707. The result of your evidence is, that you do not think that it is desirable 
 to have such punishments in prisons as would deter society, but you prefer 
 those punishments which would lead to the reformation of the individual 
 only ? 
 
 1 by no Tneans object to any punishment which would deter from crime ; but 
 I think that those punishments whicit I have mentioned, and wliich every man 
 undergoes — namely, the privation of libertv, the privation of aninml indulgences, 
 and the being obliged to work for others — are severe punishments, and quite as 
 likely to be dreaded by others as those which profess no reformatory object, and 
 which I should think produce no good effect upon the man's mind at all: and as 
 they cannot be weighed by persons outside, I think that their effect upon the 
 public mind generally is very small. 
 
 708. What is the number of re-committals, according to the last return? 
 The number of re-coumiitted prisoners for the year 1861 was 24,763 males. 
 
 7119. What was the number of committals in that year? 
 96,763. 
 
 710. Out of those about one-fourth onlv were re-committals r 
 Just so. 
 
 711. To what do you attribute the absence of re-committals on the part of the 
 other three-fourths? 
 
 In that there is a fresh supply of criminals. 
 
 712. Tlien you estimate the fresh supply of criminals per annum at about 
 three-fourths ? 
 
 It is obvious that it is so, so far as the previous committals can be known, but 
 there are a great many that have been previously committed who are not known ; 
 but, taking this as the number, that would prove that about one-fourth are 
 rC'Committed. 
 
 7! ■ 
 
 13. Are the other three fourths deterred from committing crime again by the 
 jiunishment which they have received, or do you believe they are reformed ? 
 
 Some may be reformed, some may be prevented by the recollection of former 
 punishment ; but in the case of by far the greater mmiber, it has been because the 
 circumstances which exposed them to crime have been less active against 
 
 (37-:>.) h4 them.
 
 64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Peiiy, Esq. tbeni ; for instance, many of them have got into employment, having been 
 th Marcli iS6t previously unemployed. I cannot attribute the immunity of the three-fourths 
 
 ' from re-conimitnient to the deterring effect of the former punishment wlien there 
 
 are so many other causes which may have operated in their favour, their getting 
 into employment being among the greatest of them. Others, again, have left the 
 country, and others have entered the army and navy. 
 
 714. Ch{iirma?i.'j You stated, did you not, in answer to a question which was 
 jjut to you, that you wished to see trade instruction and trade occupation in the 
 the gaols extended ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 715. And proportionately with the extension of trade occupations, you would 
 advocate the disuse of the treadwheel and the cranks ? 
 
 Yes, of the liard labour cranks. 
 
 716. I understood you to say that you would prefer to see that which is tech- 
 nically and commonly known now under the name of hard labour disused, and 
 the place of that hard labour supplied by means of trade occupations? 
 
 I should hardly like it to be inferred that 1 object to what is technically culled 
 hard labour, because it is difficult to define what that is. Many persons agree 
 with me in thinking that every kind of labour is hard or light in proportion to 
 the amount of it that is exacted. 
 
 717. \ ou are aware, are you not, of the investigations which took place, and 
 the resolutions which were passed, by the Duke of Richmond's Committee in 
 1S35 ? 
 
 Yes ; but I am not very familiar with them, because I was not in office at that 
 time. 
 
 718. You are aware that they recommended, and that they contemplated, the 
 adoption of hard labour in all prisons on the separate system ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 719. You are also aware, are you not, of the inquixy which took place in this 
 House in 1847 ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 720. Arc you aware that one of the recommendations of that Committee was, 
 that hard labour should be enforced r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 721. You are aware also of the examination which took place in 1850 in the 
 House of Commons, by Mr. Pearson's Committee r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 722. Are you aware that in those resolutions hard labour was contemplated 
 and recommended ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 723. Do you believe that in the opinion of those several Committees, when 
 hard labour is spoken of by them, it certainly applied both to the treadwheel and 
 to the cranks? 
 
 It applied, I presume, to any kind of hard labour that could be procured ; I do 
 not know that it was exclusively applied to those descriptions; in fact, tlie hard 
 labour of the crank was unknown at the time of the Committee of the Hou<e of 
 Lords which you'' Lordship refers to. \Vh;it I call the hard labour crank was 
 not invented until about 184.') ; it was invented at Pentonville Prison by one of 
 the officers. 
 
 724. Are you aware that one of the distinctive differences in the gaol at Read- 
 ing has been the absence of that which is commonly and currently known by the 
 name of hard labour r 
 
 Yes ; if tiie term is to be restricted to those kinds of labour which your Lord- 
 ship has named, they are quite wanting at Reading. 
 
 72.5. The report of Mr. Field, the chaplain of the gaol, in 1846, to the quarter 
 sessions at Reading, is quoted in his evidence .'is given before tiie Selei't ('oni- 
 mittee of this Ilou^e in 1847, in which report this passage occurs: — "The short 
 
 experience
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON VRISON DISCIPLINE. 65 
 
 experience -which has yet been obtained of the operation of the system in Reading /. g. Verry, Esq. 
 
 Gaol has yielded every encouragement for the hope and the belief that its con- 
 
 templated benefits will be confirmed by its continued application ; and the visiting 5tli March 1863. 
 
 justices are so persuaded of its incompatibility with hard labour that they are not 
 
 prepared to offer any suggestions for the supply of means by which to renew the 
 
 introduction into Reading Gaol of that mode of punishment. On the contrary, if 
 
 it be necessary, they would rather recommend that application be made to the 
 
 Secretary of State, that measures be taken to obtain by law such a construction of 
 
 the legal sentence of hard laliour as would provide due authority for its commutation 
 
 by a compulsory moral discipline." Being familiar with the system pursued in 
 
 Reading Gaol, are you prepared to say that that system is one which you would 
 
 adopt ? 
 
 Certainly not. 
 
 J 26. On what ground ? 
 
 ]3ecause there is, in rny opinion, far too little labour performed at Reading. 
 
 727. Can you state to the Committee in short terms what the Reading system 
 is, and on what grounds you object to it ? 
 
 It has been altered since Mr. Field gave that evidence by the introduction of 
 a greater amount of labour, in which respect I approve of it. In my 27th Report 
 I state " the labour performed by male prisoners consists of pumping water for 
 the use of the prison by means of a crank-pump, divided into separate compart- 
 ments ; grinding corn for the supply of the prison, with Dean's patent hand flour 
 Diills; gardening, whitewashing, mat-making, shoe mending, tailoring, carpentry, 
 and painting; and the females are employed in needlev\ork and washing." 
 
 728. How far do you consider that that fails to carry out the system which you 
 would approve of? 
 
 Although it is a great improvement upon the total absence of labour that existed 
 at first, 1 do not tliink it is carried quite far enough ; I think that the introduction 
 of the hand flour mills is a very good measure indeed, and is very well adapted for 
 all prisons, especially those on the separate system, because they can be worked in 
 separate cells. 
 
 729. Is it always easy to obtain a supply of corn sufficient to keep the mills in 
 working order ? 
 
 Always; because they do not do a great deal of work in a day, but they grind 
 sufficient for the maintenance of the prisoners, and sometimes more ; but in many 
 prisons in which they have introduced them, although they have only a small 
 number of mills, they can grind corn enough for the prisoners' bread. 
 
 730. Are you aware what amount of labour that would give to a prisoner, in a 
 gaol containing from 300 to 400 ? 
 
 Generally, there is a selection of prisoners to work at those mills, and they 
 work for several hours in the day at a time. Then, it is commonly varied with 
 other kinds of labour, which, I think, is a good plan ; for instance, a man may 
 work in grinding corn for some hours, and tlien he may go and pick oakum, or do 
 some other work. 
 
 731. Do you believe that if those mills are employed simply to grind the amount 
 of flour, which is necessary for the consumi)tion of the prison, that would give on 
 an average more than one or two hours work a day to every man ? 
 
 Most certainly, to those engaged upon them, if the number of mills is small 
 and the number of prisoners is large. 
 
 732. Does a small mill grind less in proportion than a large one ? 
 
 I mean, if there is a small luunber of mills, and a large number of prisoners, the 
 mills will be occujiied all day in grinding corn enough for tlie prison. 
 
 733. Will that give you on the average an hour a day per prisoner? 
 
 Men are generally selected, and they work for several hours each ; the prisoners 
 are not all brought in rotation to work at those mills. 
 
 734. From your own practical knowledge and experience in this matter, are 
 you aware whether, in a gaol containing from 300 to 400 prisoners with mills 
 wliich grind only that amount of flour which is necessary for the consumption of 
 
 (37. 2.) I the
 
 66 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Esq. 
 5th March 1863. 
 
 the establisliment, it is ]>liysically possible to attain to very much more than one 
 hour per day of hai'd work at those mills ? 
 
 No ; I liave said that every man is not put to that work ; but I am speaking- of it 
 as a kind of labour, to which a certain number of men are told off, and those men 
 may have just as much time occLipied in it, as is thought desirable. I do not mean 
 to say that hand mills for grinding corn for the prison, supposing the number of 
 prisoners to be large, would furnish employment to every prisoner in the gaol, but 
 that that is one mode which I think verv o-ood. 
 
 735. Will not, therefore, a 
 occupation at the handmills. 
 No doubt. 
 
 large majority of the prisoners be without this; 
 
 736. If, consequently, there is no other employment except that which trade 
 occupations afford them, a large majority of the prisoners will have to depend upon 
 those trade occupations for their hard labour ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 737. Is it your opinion that when a sentence is pronounced in court, assigning 
 so many months with hard labour, employment of the prisoner in trade occu- 
 pations of particular kinds, such as book-binding, gardening, or making paper 
 bags, is in fact a legitimate carrying out of the sentence so pronounced ? 
 
 iNo. Your Lordship has mentiimed one occupation which I think can hardly 
 be called liard labour, and I should not put any man to do it ; I refer to making 
 paper bags ; gardening is generally reserved for the sick, or those who are 
 incapable of doing heavier work, and who require a large amount of exercise and 
 fresh air, and bookbinding is only done to repair the books. 
 
 738. Do you think that gardening comes up to the standard of hard labour? 
 
 It is not given to those who are capable of hard labour ; it is given 
 to persons who may be under sentence of hard labour, but Mho, by reason of a 
 bodily infirmity of some kind are not able to perform hard labour, or who have 
 been in the infirmary, or are recommended by the surgeon to have more exercise 
 in the open air; such persons are generally pnt into the garden class, — it is not 
 considered hard labour. 
 
 739. Do you think that the employment of a man on his own special trade, at 
 which he possibly, when out of prison, may be working VI or 14 hours a day, but 
 on whicli he is employed in prison five or six, or eight hours at the maximum, 
 implies that amount of hard labour ? 
 
 No, it docs not ; but a man may be employed in his own special trade much 
 more than five or six hours in prison ; he maybe employed ail day. 
 
 740. Are you aware of any single prison in which he is employed all day ? 
 Yes, certainly. 
 
 741. The Act of Parliament prescribes 10 hours hard labour as the maximum, 
 does it not ? 
 
 Yes, I think it does. 
 
 742. Are you aware whether in any prison any prisoner is employed even for 
 10 hours in the trade on which he is employed out of the walls of the prisons? 
 
 Yes, I conceive that there are some prisons in which that is done. 
 
 743. Can you name them ? 
 
 I can mention one, namely, the Borough Gaol of Northampton, and, I think, 
 in tlie ])rison of the West Riding of Yorkshire, at Wakefield, they must be em- 
 ployed quite as long as that, but I would not take upon myself to speak 
 j)Ositively. 
 
 744. Do you believe that the maximum of 10 hours, as assigned by tlie Act of 
 Parliament, contemplated that form of hard lai)our which I have described r 
 
 I cannot say ; it is impossible for me to answer that ({uestion ; but the difficulty 
 of working in ])rison for more than 10 hours arises from causes which it would be 
 impossible to change w itlioiit a subversion of the system altogether. One cause is 
 the necessity for attending Divine service every day, M'hich takes up time ; another 
 is the rule wliich prescribes that a prisoner shall have a certain amount of educa- 
 tion and instruction given him ; when these deductions, and the time employed in 
 
 their
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. G7 
 
 tlieir meals are taken into account, it would bo difficult, I think, to give them J. G. Perry, Esq. 
 
 more than 10 hours, or even as much. In some prisons there is chapel service „ 
 
 twice a day. ^t h M^rch 18 G3. 
 
 745. Therefore, under the present arrangements, in many prisons it is impos- 
 sible, even if there are means of doing it, to give the maximum of 10 hours' hard 
 labour r 
 
 Yes, I think it would be very difficult, especially in those prisons which are not 
 lighted at niofht. 
 
 7/^6. I understand that your reason for advocating trade instruction in preference 
 to hard labour at the crank and the treadwheel, is the moral reformation which 
 is produced in the character of the prisoners? 
 
 Yes, and also the advantage from the sale of the produce to the county or 
 borough, 
 
 747. From your experience, Mhich has extended over a great many years, have 
 you been able to follow the characters and conduct of prisoners on their leaving 
 prison ? 
 
 Yes, in some few instances, but my observation of them has been very limited 
 after their discharge. 
 
 748. Do you believe that the system of reformation, as practised in any of the 
 gaols, has been successful ? 
 
 In a great number of instances it has. 
 
 749. Can you state to the Committee whether it has been successful with 
 regard to any particular classes of prisoners ? 
 
 It would be very rash in me to say what has produced the reformation, but I 
 have not the leasi doubt that a great number of persons who have committed an 
 ofFence anti have gone to prison, have afterwards conducted themselves very well, 
 and have obtained good characters. I would not take it upon me to attribute that 
 to the effiict of any positive discipline that they have undergone, but I think it is 
 very likely that the time that they have had for reflection, especially in prisons on 
 the separate system, and the good advice and encouragement that they have received 
 from benevolent and zealous chaplains and governors, have contributed to make 
 them lead good lives afterwards ; but I have not the smallest hesitation in saying 
 that there are great numbers of persons who do lead good lives, and obtain good 
 characters after having been in prison. 
 
 750. In our large gaols there are to be found a certain number of prisoners who 
 may be said to belong to the class of educated persons ; do you believe that the 
 system of moral reformation by means of trade instruction has produced any eliect 
 upon them which has subsequently changed their course of life r 
 
 Practically I have no means of giving an opinion on that subject. Educated 
 men are very often persons who, after their discharge from prison, have friends 
 or properly which may put them out of the reach of common temptations ; and 
 they may also be more deterred than others, by the recollection of their suffer- 
 ings, because their sufferings in prison are much greater than those of common 
 prisoners ; but I know of no instance that I can point to, for happily the number 
 of persons of high education and position in prison is not very large. 
 
 751. Do you mean that moral reformation is produced by those agencies upon 
 the receivers of stolen goods as a class ? 
 
 No ; I think that those are, generally speaking, among the worst of prisoners. 
 
 752. Do you believe that it is produced upon that class which we may call 
 trained and habitual thieves ? 
 
 1 do not think that one ought to speak of them collectively as a class ; I think 
 that a man may have been an habitual thief, and yet he may be ]ilaced under cir- 
 cumstances after his discharge from prison, which may make him feel that it is 
 the wiser policy to be uidustrious, especially if he have learned a trade by which 
 he can live. 
 
 753- Are you aware of this system of trade instruction having produced such 
 an effect upon the minds of men selected from those i)articular classes which have 
 come under your notice ? 
 
 1 have already said tliat I have not the means of answering that, because I can- 
 
 notfollow those persons after their discharge ; but I see such an amendment of 
 
 (^7. 2.) I 2 demeanor
 
 68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G.Periy, Esq. demeanor and cliaracter produced 1 y regular industry of a productive kind iu 
 
 ,.k iii'~r or itrisonw, that I Think it cannot fail to be productive of a beneficial effect after 
 5th March 1803. ' . .' , ^ . ^ 
 their discharge troni prison. 
 
 754. Do you believe that it has produced those beneficial results upon the 
 class of vagrants '.' 
 
 The vagrants are so short a time in ])rison that they are seldom employed upon 
 anything- but the roughest kind of work. 
 
 755. Do not they appear and reappear over and over again in gaols? 
 
 Yes; hut there are other causes besides mere criminality \\hicli lead them to 
 prison ; they come to prison for the sake of an asylum in the bad seasons of the 
 year. There are a great numljer of vagrants who commit crimes in order to lie 
 sent to prison, simply to keep themselves Marm and to be fed well through the 
 winter, 1 believe. 
 
 7,')6. Do vou believe that th<'Se effects are produced upon the class from which 
 buro-lars and" men committed for violent and murderous assaults are tai<en ? 
 
 I do not know. I see very few of them in common prisons ; jiersons who are 
 guilty of niurilerous assaults are generally sent to the Government prisons; but I 
 can conceive that a man may even have been a highwayman, and yet he may be 
 susceptible of improvement, if he gets under favourable circumstances. That 
 is, probablv, the reason why transportation was beneficial in restoring so many 
 persons to a useful position, namely, that they found nuich greater facility in 
 getting a living and in procuring the means of indulgiuLi their appetites by labour 
 than by theft, because they went into thinly-peopled colonies where there was 
 little to steal, and where employment was very easily obtained. 
 
 757. Puttin"- however the question of transportation aside, the conditions of 
 which arc entirely different from those existing in this country, and foreign to 
 them, are vou of opinion that that large class to which allusion has been made, 
 which comprises the reconvictions to prison, are a class upon whom thi^ trade 
 instruction produces any beneficial effect ? 
 
 ■^'es ; I thiiik that it has a tendency to improve every man who is employed in 
 it ; I do not mean to go so far as to say that it is likely to be effective to the full 
 extent ujion all, but I believe that it produces some modicum of good upon every 
 mind. 
 
 7.58. Vou Ijelieve that this present system has produced a beneficial effect upon 
 those classes which I have enumerated, namely, upon receivers ol stolen goods, 
 upon vagrants, upon trained thieves, upon burglars, upon men committed for 
 murderous assaults, and upon reconvicted prisoners? 
 
 I have said before, that I cannot take upon myself to speak so confidently as 
 that, but I believe that the tendency of industrial employment is good ; and 1 see, 
 I think, a very nuich improved demeanor in the prisoners who have been sub- 
 jected to it, compared to the demeanor of those who have betn subjected 
 only to those punishments which are simply punitive, and amongst whom the 
 countenance retains that criminal expression which ti.e prisoner brought iu with 
 him. 
 
 7.59. Do not those classes which I have enumerated, comprise, at all events, a 
 large proportion of the prisoners ? 
 
 Yes, a very large proportion, I imagine. 
 
 760. Arc yon of o])inion that in this case punishment, as such, in a deterring 
 point of view, is useless ? 
 
 I believe that a person who is not likely to be reformed by the methods which 
 
 I have mentioned, is not likely to be deterred by punishment. We find persons 
 
 coming in over and over again when they have been transported and retransported, 
 
 and sentenced to penal servitude, and still they continue coming in for receiving 
 
 stolen goods, or for the same offences that they were in for before ; and therefore 1 
 
 think that it may be inferred that punishment, in the form of Avhat is called 
 
 " hard labour," has produced as little etiect upon them as the cultivation of 
 
 industrious habits would have done. 1 believe that a greater reduction has 
 
 taken place in the number of committals, has been experienced in prisons on the 
 
 separate system where treadmills and cranks have been unknown than in those 
 
 where they have been employed. 
 
 76 1. And
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 69 
 
 761. And in spite of the existence of those classes, you would he prepared to J. G. Perry, Esq. 
 recommend the disuse of the crank and the treadwheel, and other machinery of , ^ T ^gg 
 that nature for inflicting hard punishment, and substitute in lieu thereof, as widely 
 
 as possible througli the country, a system of trade instruction ? 
 1 would. 
 
 762. Earl oi Dudley.'] What you have now said so distinctly in one word 
 does not quite agree with what you said before ; I understood you to say, that you 
 recommended that useless labour at the crank should be done away with, and not 
 productive labour ? 
 
 Certainly, and 1 do not mean to reverse that opinion. 
 
 7G3. That is rather different, is it not, from the answer which you gave to the 
 noble Chairman ? 
 
 I understood his Lordship as speaking prospectively, as to whether I was in- 
 clined to recommend the substitution of productive labour for that which is not 
 at all productive eventually ; and my answer was, that I should be so inclined ; 
 but I had previously said that I would not abruptly discontinue the treadmill, 
 althouah I would wish that the crank be at once discontinued. 
 
 -*o 
 
 764. Lord Steward.] The treadwheel might be made productive, might it 
 not? 
 
 It might, and on that account I would not wish it to be discontinued at present. 
 
 765. Chairman.'] Is it not a matter of fact, that the treadwheel is made, in 
 many gaols, a means of j^roductive labour? 
 
 It is ; but then it is open to other objections, as I stated in my examination on 
 the last day of the meeting of the Committee, 
 
 766. Earl Cathcart.] It appears to me that you have forgotten one most dis- 
 turbing influence with regard to the statistics of recommitments ; namely, that 
 prisoners are, in numerous instances, put down as convicted for the first time, 
 simply because there is no proof to show that they have been convicted before, 
 on account of the want of communication between the different gaols. 
 
 I did mention that. When I gave the number from the Blue Book, I said that 
 those were stated not to have been committed before, but of course we had no 
 means of knowing that that was the case, and in many instances they probably 
 had been committed before, though the fact had not been discovered. 
 
 767. Lord Lyveden.] Would it not be easy to have such general communica- 
 tion from one prison to another ? 
 
 I have often thought that something of the kind might be done, that officers 
 might be sent round to the different prisons ; at present there is a means adopted 
 which does not seem so effective in practice as it was thought that it would be. 
 I refer to sending round photographs of the j)risoners, but that is only done on a 
 small scale, when a man is supposed from his manner and demeanor to have 
 been a convict in the hulks, or a convicted prisoner; some officers are very quick 
 in discerning the ])ecularities of manner of those who have been in convict prisons, 
 and ihey sometimes send round previously to the trial of a man, a photograjili of 
 him to the different prisons to be passed on from one to the other, perhaps some- 
 times going to 20 prisons to inquire whether the man is known there, and if 
 so, what is known about him. 
 
 76S. Would it not be easy to have a general rule laid down, that there should 
 be a description of the person committed transmitted to all the gaols all over the 
 country. 
 
 That might be done, but it is a very difficult thing from a simple description of a 
 man to establish his identity ; but 1 think that much might be done in that way. 
 
 769. Earl Cathcart.] You are aware, are you not, that there is a communication 
 sent by the Secretary of State, or by his authority, called the " Police Gazette"? 
 
 Yes'; 
 
 770. Might not some paper, in the nature of the " Police Gazette," be circu- 
 lated in the different prisons? 
 
 It would of course hardly undertake to send descriptions of all persons com- 
 mitted for petty thefts and vagrancy. 
 
 (37.2.) 13 77!- Earl.
 
 70 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G.Perry, Esq. 771- Earl of Dudley.'] With regard to what was said just now by the noble 
 ■til mI^i86t ^^h^'!""^*'^"- '}'^ not you tiiink that at the present moment, the punishment wliich 
 
 " ' ^s gi^'"^'" ai"^! "je hibour which is exacted in every gaol, is discussed and known by 
 
 the prisoner class generally throughout the country, and that they calculate what 
 amount of punishment they are to receive ? 
 
 1 do not think that ; I think that they are extremely reckless as to the conse- 
 quences of their crimes ; they know that a very small proportion of the crimes 
 committed by them are ever discovered, and they think that they will draw prizes 
 though other men may draw blanks. 
 
 7712. They risk it? 
 
 \es, they risk it; and I do not think that the ulterior consequences of re- 
 committals to prison ever enter into their calculation at all. 
 
 773. Wo hear them constantly say, " We expected only three months"? 
 "Yes, that is their expectation alter their arrest, but when they committed the 
 
 crime they never dreamed that they would get three months, or be discovered 
 at all. 
 
 774. You do not think that that enters into their calculation, but they simply 
 run the risk ? 
 
 I do not think it does. 
 
 775. They are carried away by the incitements to crime, and their previous 
 punishment does not deter them ? 
 
 Yes ; I fear that it does not deter them, except in the slightest degree, and 
 therefore it is that I so much prefer the kinds of discipline which are likely to 
 improve the character of the man. 
 
 776. Do not you think that that class are governed almost entirely by fear, 
 and that that is the most important question to be considered with regard to 
 them ? 
 
 No ; I do not think so. 
 
 777. Lord lVo(khouse.~\ Would not your answer come to this, that except for 
 the purpose of reforming offenders, it would be better to abolish prisons alto- 
 gether, and not go to the expense and trouble of maintaining them ? 
 
 It would still be necessary to restrain them by imprir-onment. I said before, 
 that if it Mere possible to reform a man without inflicting pain, I should conceive 
 it to be our duty to do so ; but that as pain to a certain extent is necessary to 
 produce reformation in the present constitution of the human character, pain must 
 be inflicted ; but we do not do it for the purpose of inflicting punishment, but 
 to make punishment a means of improving the prisoner. 
 
 778. Earl of Diicie.] In short, the only punishment that you would advocate 
 would be that which would have in view the reformation of the offender? 
 
 Yes, if that could be done effectually. 
 
 77Q. Lord Wode/iouse.'] And if you were to fail in reforming the offender, the 
 logical result would be that we nmst give up punishment ? 
 
 Not imprisonment ; you can put it out of tiis power to commit offences by that 
 means. 
 
 780. That is rather inconsistent with vour statement, because that is something 
 entirely beyond the reformation of the offender. 
 
 Yes, the protection of the public from spoliation and violence is the object, 
 and the reformation of the offender is one of the most powerful means of pro- 
 tecting the public. Speaking aljstractcdly, there is no advantage in inflicting 
 punishment, but merely as a means of reformation or repression, for the benefit 
 of the public. 
 
 781. You just now said, in answer to a noble Lord, that you did not think that 
 offenders were in any respect inflm need, when they hereabout to commit a crime, 
 cither by the expectation of jiuuishmeiit, or by tlie reuienibrance of past punish- 
 ment ; do not you then see that the result of that must be that, unless you can 
 reform the offender, ])risous and ])unishments are a useless and unnecessary 
 cxjiense r 
 
 1 do not say that they are not in any degree, but that they are not much in- 
 fluenced by such recollections, because they do not take into account the 
 
 probability
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 71 
 
 probal)ility of being discovered ; and tliercfore, in proportion to the small risk tliat /, q_ Perry.tiq: 
 
 tliey run, their consideration of the consequences must be small also. 
 
 •^ . 5th March 18631 
 
 782. Chairman.'] Have you any special suggestion to make to the Committee 
 
 with regard to the production of evidence which can establish the identity of a 
 
 person on his second appearance ? 
 
 There is one expedient which I have thought might be adopted partly with 
 that view, and partly to obtain a repressive power over a man after he is discharged 
 from prison, which is, to require that all persons sentenced for felony either after 
 the first sentence, or at any rate after the second, should enter into their own 
 recognizances for good behaviour after they are discharged for a certain length of, 
 time, and that the condition imposed upon them should be that they should 
 report themselves to the police, and that their residence should be made known 
 to the police and any change of residence. It seems to me that that would be 
 a great check upon them ; and tlie Secretary of State might have the powei* of 
 releasing them from their recognizances upon proof from the police that ihey had 
 conducted themselves well for a certain length of time. That intercommunication 
 would make them known to the j)olice, and their movements would also become 
 known, so that they nn'ght be much more easily traced ; and this would have the 
 effect which was intended to be produced by the ticket of leave, of giving a 
 proper sujjervision over the man for some time after he is discharged, without its 
 operating, as the ticket of leave is supposed by many to do, in abrogating a part 
 of the sentence, and therefore destroying the prestige of the judgment of the 
 court. 
 
 783. Supposing, however, that the prisoner, after his discharge, was either 
 unwilling or unable to enter into recognizances, how would you deal with him 
 then ? 
 
 It would be merely a personal engagement, and would make him liable to a 
 forfeiture of his liberty if he did not fulfil that eng-ajrement. I do not think that 
 it would be possible to bind him over in any money penalty, but the man should 
 be told on his discharge, "You will be under supervision for six months (or what- 
 ever term it might be), during which time you will have to report yourself once a 
 month to the police, and if you change your residence you nmst give them a re]Jort 
 of your change of residence." That would at any rate keep the men after their 
 discharge in the knowledge of the police for a little while, and if they were found 
 to have got into employment, or to be conducting themselves well, and getting 
 their living honestly, they might be liberated from their engagement by the 
 Secretary of State. I do not tliink that it would be difficult to work sucli a sys- 
 tem, and it seems to me that it would be a very great security against persons 
 going back into crime. 
 
 784. That would be simply establishing, with regard to prisoners who have 
 passed through the criminal courts with less than two years' imprisonment, the 
 same system which is now supposed to be enforced with regard to penal ser- 
 vitude. 
 
 Yes ; except that it would follow the sentence, instead of being part of it. 
 
 785. Lord Steward.'] If a man declined to give that recognizance, what penalty 
 can you inflict upon him ? 
 
 Not any in the present state of the law. 
 
 7X6. What object would a man have in entering into such an engagement ? 
 
 It should be made a part of his sentence. The law would not admit of it at 
 present, but fresh legislation might make it possible, just as is done now in the 
 case of assault. It is very common to order that a man shall bo imprisoned for six 
 months, and then give security for 12 months afterwards; and so in this case, in- 
 stead of giving a money security, which is very olten difficult to get, I would let the 
 man bind himself, under certain conditions, to show himself. The registering 
 which would be rendered necessary in that process would make it much more 
 easy to trace a man afterwards, if it was desired. 
 
 787. Lord ff'odf/iouse.'] Would you recommend such a system with regard to 
 prisoners sentenced for very short terms? 
 
 No, I would not ; indeed, I think that it is unnecessary, unless a man is con- 
 victed a second time ; I should try it first with the second comnnttals. 
 
 (37. 2.) I 4 788. Chairman.']
 
 72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Esq. 788. Chairman.'] Is not, very often, the real difficulty this, that when a man 
 — — appears, in fact, the second time in a court of law, it is supposed that he comes 
 
 .;th March 1863. \^Qy.Q for the first time, and there is no means of proving his identity ? 
 
 ~~~~ That happens every day no doubt ; but a great number of cases are discovered. 
 
 There would still be some undiscovered ; but it appears to me that this mode of 
 reo-istering a man, and requiring him to report himself for a time, would make 
 the police so familiar with him that he could be easily traced if necessary. 
 
 789. Would you bind him to confine himself to one particular district? 
 Not at all ; but he should give notice of his change of residence, so that he may 
 be put under the supervision of the police of another county if he removed. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Ordered, that this Committee be adjourned to Monday next, One o'clock.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 73 
 
 Die Lunce, 9° Martii 1 863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT; 
 
 Lord President. 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Earl of Carnarvon'. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 
 Earl of EOMNEY. 
 Earl Cathoart. 
 Earl of Due IE. 
 
 Lord WODEHOUSE. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair. 
 
 Evidence on 
 Prison Discipline. 
 
 jE. Smith, Esq., 
 
 EDWARD SMITH, Esquire, m.d., xl.b., f.r.s., is called in, and examined '"'"'' ^^•'^•> ^-"' 
 
 as follows : 
 
 790. Chairman.'] I believe you belong to the College of Physicians ? 
 Yes. 
 
 791. Will you be good enough to state to the Committee what are the dif- 
 ferent qualifications which you possess ? 
 
 I am a Doctor of Medicine, a Bachelor of Laws, a Fellow of the Royal 
 Society, a Member of the Royal College of Physicians, and a Fellow of the 
 Royal College of Surgeons. 
 
 7q2. And you are Physician to the Hospital for Consumption at Brompton, 
 are you not ? 
 Yes. 
 
 793. You have recently been appointed, have you not, by the British Asso- 
 ciation to conduct a certain inquiry ? 
 Yes, for three years. 
 
 71)4. Will you state what the nature of that inquiry was ? 
 
 It was a general inquiry as to the precipe effect of prison discipline and 
 dietary upon the bodily functions of the prisoners. We have gone through an 
 elaborate series of inquiries, which have formed our first report ; and we should 
 have issued last year a second report, but the results of the inquir}' were im- 
 perfect. This year we shall be required to present a second report. 
 
 79"). I think that in that inquiry you had the sanction and assistance of the 
 Royal Societv : 
 Yes. 
 
 70(». Has the inquiry itst-lf extended over a large field of operations? 
 
 It occupied a month in inquiries at Coldbath Fields on the functions of four 
 prisoners, the aim being to determine precisely the ingesta, or the amount of 
 food taken into the body during the day, and the amount of material passino- 
 out of the body during the day under the different conditions of treadwheel 
 labour and of rest, and with the ordinary dietary and certain special kinds of 
 dietary, such as tea, coffee, alcohol, and fat. A similar inquiry was carried 
 out at Wakefield upon a number of prisoners, under Mr. JNJilner and myself, 
 who were a Committee appointed by the British Association. Mr. Miliier is 
 the resident surgeon at \\'akefipld, on the Government side of the prison. 
 There we determined the effect upon two tailors, taking theirs as light 
 labour, and upon two prisoners making the wide widths of mattins;, which is 
 
 gth March 1863. 
 
 (37. 3.) 
 
 K 
 
 lor
 
 M, 
 
 74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 K Smith, Esq., for a manufacture very heavy labour, taking the same course as in the other 
 
 I.D., ll.b'., f.r.s. inquiry to determine precisely and scientifically the relation between the 
 
 ingcst'u and the egcsta, and to determine tlie effect of weight, and all questions 
 
 gth March 1863. ofthat kind incidental to it. 
 
 797. You extended this operation so far as to experiment upon yourself, did 
 you not ? 
 
 Yes, the experiments began upon myself. I have determined in many prisons 
 the effect of "treadwheel labour upon myself, and in several prisons the effect 
 of crank labour, the shot drill, and other punishments. 
 
 708. In fact, you have given the subject very considerable study and con- 
 side lation ? 
 
 It has formed a large part of my scientific work during the last seven years. 
 
 79(). Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee what woi'ks you 
 have written upon the subject ? 
 
 Tlicre were three pajiers read before the Society for the Promotion of Social 
 Science, two of which were publislaed in their transactions in 1857, and one 
 before the British Association in 1861. There were two papers read before 
 that time, but the report which I published separately was in the Transactions 
 of 1861. There were also three papers read before the Royal Society, and 
 published in the Philosophical Transactions, two in 1859 and one in 1861 : and 
 there have been a number of papers and short reports of experiments upon 
 myself read before the Committee of the Social Science Society, on Prison 
 Punishment and Reformation, and pubhshed in the "Philanthropist" in 1858. 
 A paper on a new scheme of prison dietar}' was piibUshed in the Dublin INIedical 
 Quarterly of 1860, I think. 
 
 800. In this inquiry you have considered, have you not, the effect not merely 
 of diet, but of punishment also, combined \^ ith it ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 801. The Committee propose to examine you with regard to dietary, in the 
 first place, with reference to labour ; and dietary, in the second place, with 
 reference to punishment. Taking it under the first head, that of dietary in 
 reference to labour, I presume that you would adapt the division of labour into 
 hard and light ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 802. The hard labour would ])robably include the treadwheel, the crank, 
 and machinery, and the lighter labour would include the picking of oakum and 
 trade instruction ? 
 
 Yes. The only i)oint that I find it difficult to arrange in that way is stone- 
 breaking. If we take amongst the hard labour the treadwheel, and all kinds 
 of crank labour, such as grinding, pumping and the ordinary hard labour 
 crank, and the shot drill, we have thi-ee well-defined species of hard labour. 
 If, on the other hand, we take as light labour the ordinary manufactures, not in- 
 chuiing the wide widths of matting, but taking the ordinary manufactures, such 
 as tailoring, the repairs of the prisons, the manufacture of the clothing of the 
 prisoners, rope-making, and I think you may include oakum-picking, then stone- 
 breaking might be added to hard labour ; but that must entirely deiiend u]jon 
 the amount of work that a man does ; he may make it light labour or heavy 
 labour, according to the exact amount of labour required of him, but I think it 
 must be classed amongst the hard labour. 
 
 803. "iou would have no hedtation in placing the trade instruction in the 
 class of light labour ? 
 
 No. 
 
 804. What is the amount of either hard or of light labour which you would 
 consider a fair projjortion during the day ? 
 
 I find it very dillicult to answer that question, inasmuch as the punish- 
 ments for hard labour are so various in their effects ui)on the system. 1 should 
 recpiire to consider each instrument of punishment, and then form an estimate 
 of the effect of it u]>on the body, before I couUl determine what the relation of 
 it would be with no labour, or with any other given kind of labour. At 
 present the influence of the punishments by the treadwheel and cranks of 
 every kind is extremely various, so that the waste of the body would vary 
 from about twice the ordinary amount up to five and a half times, and 
 
 yet
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 75 
 
 yet those punishments are given indiscriminately, so that I do not see how I can 
 answer that question precisely at present. 
 
 805. Assuming that the tread wheel be the engine which is to he employed 
 in hard labour, could you assign any hmit to it, in point of duration, for a d.iy's 
 work, as hard labour ? 
 
 I think that the system which is adopted at Coldbath Fields, which is 3^ 
 hours of treadwheel labour, a quarter of an hour on the wheel, and a 
 quarter of an hour off the wheel, making 7h hours as a day's work (assuming 
 that the treadwheel work was regulated properly, with regard to speed and 
 other matters to give it uniformity of action;, would be a fair and proper day's 
 work at hard labour. 
 
 806. Are you of opinion that whatever be the labour, whether it be hard or 
 light, it should always be a full day's work ? 
 
 Yes ; I think it should be a full day's work. 
 
 807. How would you define a full day's work ? 
 
 I think with regard to manufactures, that a day's work ought not to be less 
 than 10 hours a day ; and with regard to hard labour it should be less, say "I 
 or 8 hours a day. 
 
 808. Are you aware that in the Act of Parliament, which regulates these 
 matters, 10 hours a day are assigned as the maximum for treadwheel labour? 
 
 I am not aware exactly; but I know that there is a maximum period, and 
 that there is also a maximum ascent beyond which they may not pass. 
 
 Sf-ij. Would you employ a prisoner on the same kind of labour during the 
 whole course of the da\', or would you vary it ? 
 
 I think it is very important to make the prison punishments absolutely 
 uniform, and that a certain degree of monotony in that uniformity is not 
 at all unwise. If, therefore, prison punishments could be devised, or could be 
 selected, which would each and all have the same effect upon the system, I think 
 that object would be met whether you varied them or not ; but if only one or 
 two were selected, my belief is, that it would be better to keep it uniform, and 
 have it all treadwheel labour, or all crank labour. 
 
 810. I'rom your experience, are you aware whether a large part of the day, 
 in a niajority of gaols, is spent in idleness ? 
 
 A ver}' large part of the day. 
 
 811. From what you have stated, I infer that you are averse to that ? 
 Yes ; 1 think it very injudicious. 
 
 812. Is it an object that hard labour should be more or less conducted in the 
 open air ? 
 
 I think that object very important, if there be a fair protection from the cold 
 and wind. Hard labour, of course, gives rise to a very much greater amount 
 of respiration than light laljour or no laboiu', and if it be performed in 
 the open air, the air breathed would be purer, and the other 
 would be more conducive to health. 
 
 E. Smith, Esq., 
 
 M.D., LL.B., F.a.S. 
 
 arrangements 
 
 813. '1 he fundamental 
 view^ in considering this 
 health must be sustained 
 secondly, that the labour 
 possible ; and, thirdly, th; 
 good enough to state to 
 question, you have given 
 
 Quite so. 
 
 rule which the Committee would wish you to keep in 
 question of hard labour, wovild be first of aU, that 
 under any kind of discipline which is to be imposed ; 
 should be administered in the most economical form 
 it due punishment should be inflicted ; would you be 
 the Conuuittee whether, in your consideration of this 
 due weight to all these three points ? 
 
 814. With regard to the diet, I believe that in those prisons of which you 
 have had experience, the differences of diet are very considerable ? 
 ■\''ery great. 
 
 8)5. Can you explain that to the Committee? 
 
 There is no uniform dietary enforced by the Government, and I think that 
 that is a fundamental defect. A dietary is recommended by the Home 
 Office, and any scheme of dietary must be sanctioned by the Home Secretary, 
 
 (37. 3.) K 2 but 
 
 gth March 1863.
 
 7& MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Smith, Esq., but there is none enforced, and the result is that the Visiting Justices of the 
 M.D., LL.B., F.u.s. different prisons adopt such a plan as seems to them to be good within the 
 gth ruli^ 18C3. li"iit« ^^"bich are allowed by the Home Secretary. Therefore "it seems to me 
 
 ' th;it the want of an authorised and enforced system of dietary by the Home 
 
 Office is that which leads to all the diversity now existing in that respect. 
 
 816. The scale of dietary laid down by the Home Office has been adopted, 
 has it not, by a certain number of prisons ? 
 
 By about one-half of the number of the county prisons, I believe. 
 
 817. And of the remaining half, some are above and some below that 
 scale ? 
 
 Yes ; they are very different indeed. 
 
 81 S. Can you give any practical illustration to the Committee of the amount 
 of discrepancy which exists between those different diets ? 
 
 If we take the case of meat, which is perhaps the most striking case that we 
 can take, at the time that the report was published in 1857, of the "dietary for 
 convicts, &c." which I take as my authority in this question, at Cardiff gaol, they 
 allowed no meat whatever. On the other hand, the gaols in Middlesex allowed 
 six ounces of cooked meat on foiu- days in the week, and four ovmces ol cooked 
 meat on three days in the week ; and the same occurred also in Brecon gaol, 
 one of the Welsh gaols. That is for the highest class. On the other hand, for 
 the lowest class, there is in no gaol any meat allowed, and that dietary is ex- 
 tremely insufficient in all the prisons. A discrepancy occurs again in the 
 way that the classes of dietary correspond with the duration of the imprison- 
 ment. A person imjnisoned for seven or tburteen or twenty-one days, has a 
 much lower dietary than one imprisoned for a longer period. A discrepancy 
 occurs therefore in the length of time during which this very low dietary shall 
 be given in tiie different gaols, so that in Cardiff' gaol the higliest scale of 
 dietary begins after 14 days' imprisonment, whereas in many other 
 gaols it begins after four Biontlis, and the dietary being very meagre, even in 
 the highest class in C ardiff' gaol, renders the discrepancy so much the greater, 
 because it never can exceed the dietary which is given for that period. 
 
 819. Looking at the dietary as one pait of the sentence which it is required 
 should be carried out in prison, is there not the greatest variety as to the extent 
 of i)unishment intiicLcd upon different prisoners for the same offences in different 
 counties, or even in different parts of the same county ? 
 
 The greatest diversity, both in punishment and in the dietary. 
 
 8i?o. In dealing with this question, would it not be necessary, in the first 
 instance, to get at some uniformity of practice by determining the nutritive 
 value of the dietaries r 
 
 Without that nothing can be done. A return of the different dietaries is 
 quite valueless for reference at the present time, because it cannot be sum- 
 marised unless it could be reduced to the elements of nutrition, the nitrogen and 
 carbon contained in the food. 
 
 8.21. Do you believe that in many gaols there is a considerable excess of food 
 given at present r 
 Yes. 
 
 822. On what ground do you come to that conclusion ? 
 
 The quantity of nutriment supplied at the Wandsworth prison, which I have 
 been recently requested to determine from their scale of dietary, shows that 
 in the highest class, and I think also in the gaol at Coldbath Fields, the amount 
 of carbon furnished is nearly 37,000 grains per week ; whereas the quantity 
 Avhieh I believe to be necessary, and which I have recommended for the Lan- 
 cashire operatives, ought not to exceed 30,000 grains, so that there is an 
 excess of 7,000 grains of carbon in the Wandsworth dietary. Then, as I have 
 said before, the nu at at the Coldbath Fields jirison seems to me to be much 
 in excess of that which is obtained by the labouring poi)ulation of this country, 
 and therefore I think much in excess of what should be found in prison discipline. 
 
 823. The two elements with which, chemically, you have to deal are a certain 
 portion of carbon, and a certain portion of nitrogen ? 
 
 X es 
 
 824. The
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 17 
 
 S24. The nitroijen is an element which is supohed mainly by meat, is it E. Smith, Esq., 
 
 not? " ' " M.D.,LL.B., r.U.S. 
 
 \iy nvixt, milk, eggs, an 1 che?se— these kinds of animal food, in fact, supply yth March 1863. 
 
 a larger portion of nitrogenous elements in relation to carbon than the vegetable 
 
 foods do. 
 
 825. Would it, in your opinion, be possible to construct such a dietary, by 
 either the employment of milk or of cheese, or of other food of a similar quality, 
 or by a combination of them, as would enable you to dispense in a great measure 
 with meat, and yet would sustain the health of the prisoners equally well I 
 
 1 am not at present able to say whether meat may be entirely dispensed with, 
 but taking the expression your Lordship made use of, " in a great measure,"' I 
 can quite answer that question in the affirmative. 
 
 826. Do you beheve tliat you might reduce the allowance of meat which is 
 granted in most prisons without in any way impairing or affecting the health of 
 the prisoners ? 
 
 Yes, I am quite sure that that might be done. 
 
 S27. Would you exjilain to the Committee a little on what principle you 
 would act in that case ? 
 
 It would seem to me that the right course of proceeding would be this, to 
 determine the amount of food which is necessary to maintain a person in fair 
 health in the open air, and to endeavour so to arrange that it shnll also maintain 
 the prisoner in health in a state of confinement. The difference of the two 
 conditions is mainly, or, perhaps, entirely this, that in confinement you have 
 less vital action in the body, less digestion of food, and less assimilation of food 
 or conversion of food into the tissues of the body. Jhe aim, therefore, should 
 be so to arrange the prison discipline that there shall be such an increase of 
 this assimilation over the present amount vvith inaction as shall enable the 
 cheap food which is sufficient for the support of an agricultural labourer to 
 keep the prisoner in health. If that be not not done, it will be necessary, as 
 we do at present, to give more nitrogen. With the deficient assimilation 
 existing in confinement, you must increase the meat or the milk — the 
 nitrogenous foods, in order to increase the vital action of the body; but if 
 you adopt the other course, that of giving them exercise and fresh air, such 
 as a labourer would have, you do not need to give a proportionhte increase 
 of nitrogen ; you therefore assimilate the conditions of a prisoner much 
 more to those of an ordinary labourer, and you will not give them a 
 dietary ]3^3rond that of any ordinary labourer, either in quantity or in 
 quality. 
 
 8:28. Therefore, are the Committee to understand from that answer that, 
 labour and meat both tending to stimulate the vital action of the body, labour, 
 to a certain extent, in your point of view, might l)e made a substitute for 
 that amount of stimulation which you would gain by meat ? 
 
 Quite so. 
 
 829. Lord President.'] I presume it is not merely the use of the muscles 
 which gives that power of assimilating, but it is the increase of nervous power 
 altogether ? 
 
 Yes, the increase of respiration is probably a fundamental question. 
 
 830. Would their being upon the treadmill produce the same effect upon a 
 man of 20, and another of 40 ? 
 
 Yes, the effect would be the same, if it were in the open air ; lee the other 
 conditions be the same, the effect would be the same. 
 
 831. Do you think the effect upon the mind has nothing whatever to do with 
 that ? 
 
 I think the mind may have some influence, but not very much over the 
 great m;iss of prisoners. If you take the case of a prisoner who has moved in 
 a higher station in life, the effect upon his mind may influence his vital powers 
 no doubt, but with regard to the great mass of prisoners, I do not think that 
 has any material influence, or that it much needs to be considered in the 
 question of prison discipline, if other things are duly considered. 
 
 (37. 3.) K 3 832. As
 
 78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Smith, Esq., 832. As a general rule, a labourer feels some sort of interest in the work in 
 
 M.D., LL.B., F.R.s. yfiy^^i^ ijg jg employed; whereas a prisoner finds the treadwheel or the crank 
 
 9th March 1863. simply irksome ? 
 
 Yes, that is so, no doubt. 
 
 8.33- You think that the effect of imprisonment upon the mind or the 
 nervous system has nothing to do with the power of assimilating ' 
 
 Practically speaking, not much, I think ; I of course assume that proper 
 exertion is to be made. Without the exertion, there might be a considerable 
 difference, but the exertion would take away the evil influence of the condition 
 of the mind. 
 
 S34. Cliainiuui.'] therefore, the point wliicli you would wish the Committee 
 to vmderstand is, first of all, is it not, that in many gaols there is a considerable 
 excess in the food, and especially the food of an animal nature which is now 
 allowed? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 83 v And, secondly, would you be prepared to say that there is a deficiency of 
 labour ? 
 
 I think there should be no imprisonment without labour, and therefore when 
 labour is not given, or is given very carelessly and very variably, as it is in dif- 
 ferent prisons, there must be a deficiency. But labour and exercise I would 
 take, in a mere medical sense, to be a certain amount of exertion in the open air. 
 
 836. Whenever you have a deficiency of labour, you miglit make either the 
 labour or the open-air exercise, whichever it be, more or less a substitute for 
 the amount of nitrogen which otherwise would be su})plied in meat ? 
 
 Yes, quite so. 
 
 837. Consequently, a farinaceous and vegetable diet, with possibly the same 
 nitrogenous element introduced, but kept subordinate to it, would be such as 
 would sustain the health of the prisoners, and might be used with safety ? 
 
 Yes. Perl)aps I should state, that in nature all carbonaceous food, such as 
 starch, is almost always found associated with a certain portion of nitrogen. In 
 bread, which is the staple of our dietary, and must be of every cheap dietary, the 
 proportion of carbon and nitrogen is one of nitrogen to 22 of cai'bon ; the propor- 
 tion in milk, taking the more expensive and the more nitrogenous dietary, is 
 one of nitrogen to 1 1 of carbon ; therefore double the quantity of nitrogen in 
 l^roportion to the carbon. If, therefore, you increase the labour, you are com- 
 pelled to increase the nitrogen, because you must increase the carbon, and 
 you must increase the nitrogen in the food in the same proportion as you would 
 increase the carbon. 
 
 838. Marquess of Salisbun/.'] Is it the labour that increases the nitrogen, or 
 is it the necessity of giving other food? 
 
 The necessity of giving more food ; with increased labour you must give 
 more food. 
 
 S3(). C/iainvaa.'] Consequently, ai-e the Committee to luiderstand that it is 
 a fallacy to suppose that the increase of hard labour of necessity involves the 
 increase of animal food ■■ 
 
 I believe it is a fallacy. AVith the increase of labour you must give more 
 food, but that food may be of the cheaper kinds, the farinaceous kinds of food. 
 You do not need to give more milk and meat, which are the higher nitro- 
 genized forms of food, the labour supplying the vital stimulus sufficient for the 
 assiuiihition of the lower and cheaper kinds of food. I would just mention 
 to the Committee some most important experiments with reference to this 
 m.atter which luive been made very recently. Two German chemists, 
 Bis-chofF and Voit, at the same time that I was making experiments 
 on the treadwheel, put a dog in a spitwheel, which is a similar thing to 
 a treadwheel, and kept the dog at work for a number of days, and they 
 ascertained that the amount of nitrogen ])assing out of the body was not 
 in the least increased by the increase of exertion. The effect which came out 
 in my experiments on the treadwheel was almost identical with that — that 
 although you increase the waste of the body five or six times, yet during the 
 period of waste you shall not throw out of the body more nitrogen than you 
 throw out during rest, which is a very striking basis for the statement which I 
 
 have
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 79 
 
 have made now ; and if it do not come out of the body you do not need to £. Smith, Esq., 
 put it in ; you do not need therefore with increased labour to give a proper- "•»•) ^^-^-i ^•^•^• 
 tionate increase of nitrogen. jj^ March 1863. 
 
 840. Would you therefore go so far as to say that in a strictly medical point 
 
 of view hard labour is necessary to a prisoner r 
 
 Yes, labour or exercise, to put it in that form. 
 
 841. Would you go further, and say that the want of that labour would be 
 calculated to produce a depressing effect upon the mind of a prisoner ? 
 
 Yes, and the prisoner would require a higher kind of food. 
 
 8^2. Consequently you are of opinion, are you not, that every prison system, 
 in a strictly medical point of view, ought to embrace labour as one of the 
 constituent and necessary parts of the system ? 
 
 Yes, I think so. 
 
 843. Reverting to what you mentioned just now with regard to the different 
 elements of diet, would you be good enough to state to the Committee what 
 you would consider to be the basis of prison diet ? 
 
 I think the basis should be the dietary which is in use by a large section of 
 the community, say our agricultural population ; that, should be the basis of an 
 experimental dietary, for at present we have not the information necessary to 
 enable us to construct a dietary M'hich shall be final, and thereto le in any ques- 
 tion of dietary, I should regaicl this as experimental, and that the basis should 
 necessarily be that which is known to sustain in health a large section of the 
 community, such as our agricultural population. 
 
 544. You believe that a dietary might be constructed upon a basis which, 
 if it did not absolutely exclude meat, wi)uld be able to exclude it to a very 
 considerable extent, and provide a substitute for it, which would equally sustain 
 the health of the prisoner ? 
 
 Yes ; I have the conviction, that a dietary may be framed which shall contain 
 a little milk, it may be, or bone liquor, or meat liquor, and which shall be 
 sufficient for all the wants of the system, with light labour, entirely excluding 
 meat. 
 
 545. When you come to increase that labour to hard labour, what would be 
 the proportionate addition which it would be necessary then to make to the 
 diet ? 
 
 In the experiments, I should have of course to calculate the effect of a 
 particular punishment upon the system, and as my experiments have enabled 
 me to make those calculations, I can ver}^ readily communicate them to the 
 Committee. If crank lal)our were the labour in question, the effect upon the 
 body during the period of the laljour, is to increase the waste from two to three 
 times, and since there would be, either with or without labour, the period of the 
 night when there would be no labour, taking the whole 24 hours, the increase 
 of the waste of the system on the whole 24 hours by the crank labour, is one 
 and-a-half. With regard to the tread-wheel, the increase of waste during the 
 period of its continuance is five and a half times ; but taking into account the 
 whole 24 hours, the increase is equal to twice. The increase of waste by the 
 shot-drill, with a 1(3 lb. shot is four times; and, with a 24 lb. shot, it is 4-1 
 during the period of labour ; as it is never employed for a whole day, I have 
 not calculated its effect over the 24 hours. The quantities I have named are 
 sufliciently accurate for all experimental purposes, and I should give the prisoner 
 an amount of food corresponding with that increase of the waste of the system. 
 
 8..|(>. Do you think it would be possible, proceeding on the basis of that 
 calculation, practically, to reduce that theory into a system of prison rules, and 
 to allocate, as it were, to each prisoner the amount of food which he ought to 
 have in jjroportion to the length of time that he is employed, and to the par- 
 ticular kind of labour upon which he is employed? 
 
 Unite so ; 1 believe that the effect of all prison punishments might be made 
 uniform, except where such an effect would be dependent \\\)on the variations 
 in the bodily health and strength of a prisoner, but the effect of all prison 
 punishments should be made uniform, and the diet may be arranged so as 
 exactly to meet the effect of that labour upon the system. 
 
 (37. 3.) K 4 S47. Earl
 
 80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Smith, Esq., 847. Earl of Malme,shin-y.'] You stated did you not^ that meat could not be 
 
 M.D., LL.B., F.R.s. entirely dispensed with ? 
 
 Qth March iSGt ^ *^''^^^ ^^^^^ ^ ^^^^ "°^ ^"^'^ ^^'^^ ^^ Could be. 
 
 848. Are you aware that many thousands of our labourers in the south and 
 
 west of England, never eat any meat at all ? 
 
 I am not aware of that as an absolute fact ; I believe they eat but a very 
 small quantity of meat, but they do occasionally get it so far as I am informed ; 
 but at present we have nothing, 1 think, stated absolutely to that effect. 
 
 849. That, however, is the case in a very large jsortion of the country with 
 which I am acquainted ; indeed, I may say in several counties, that they live 
 upon bread and cheese and vegetables, and sometimes bacon, but perhaps that 
 only once a week; but what we should commonly call meat, they do not use; is 
 that the class upon which you would found the basis of the dietary of which 
 you spoke just now ? 
 
 Yes, that would be the class I should take, but I should reckon bacon is in 
 some sense meat, because although bacon consists very largely of fat, yet there 
 is a considerable quantity of animal tissue or nitrogenous matter in it ; and of 
 course the leaner parts have as much nitrogenous material as other meat has. 
 
 850. 'With regard to a subject which has been alluded to this morning, it has 
 been stated that the vital powers of prisoners fril in continement, especially at 
 first, and that that is occasioned by the impression upon their minds re-acting 
 upon their nervous system ; you stated, did you not, that if they took proper 
 exercise, in the majority of cases, that would not take place or at least to a 
 very small extent "- 
 
 Yes; perhaps I mav say that an experiment was made at Wakefield a few 
 years ago by which a short amount of extra exercise was given per week ; I 
 cannot say the exact amount, but it was only a short period ; yet it very mate- 
 riall}' reduced the extra diets which indicates that it m;iteri;dly increased the 
 health of the prisonei's; and the result of that experiment is now in print. 
 
 8.51. You are probably aware that the greatest number of prisoners of a 
 lower class, in fact, almost all who are found in our gaols have during their 
 previous lives been very irregular in their habits, and been accustomed to 
 imbibe a considerable quantity of alcoholic liquors ; that being the case, would 
 not the sudden stoppage of those stimulants i)roduce the effect which is said to 
 take place when they are first confined, and occasion a collapse of the vital 
 powei's ? 
 
 I do not know quite how to answer that question, because I do not know 
 that I could admit that there is the very large depression which the question 
 seems to indicate in a healthy state of the prisoners , and then as regards alco- 
 holic liquors, I do not admit them to be stimulants in the ordinary sense. I 
 do not think that they do necessarily increasi' the vital action ; 1 think that they 
 diminish vital action when taken in the quantity to which your Lordship refers, 
 and tlierefore that the al)sence of alcohol would rather tend to increase the vital 
 power. 
 
 85 J. If a man has been accustomed to drink a large or even a small quantity 
 of spirits or wine, and he is suddenly deprived of the means of continuing that 
 habit, does not he at first for some time experience a mental depression from 
 the want of those stimulants, and undergo a general collapse of the spirits and 
 of the strength r 
 
 I think he may feel it, but not in such a way as will interfere with his health, 
 assuming of course that the person is in fair healtli to start with. 
 
 8.53. Assuming that what has been so generally stated may be true, and that 
 under such circumstances a collaj^se of the vital ])(nvers is i)roduced, do you 
 think that if those men had been accustomed to drink a great quantity of beer 
 and spirits, the sudden deprivation of them would not l)e felt by them for a 
 considerable time after they are sent to prison r 
 
 Not so as to injure their health. I should state with reference to that that 
 those are questions which I have investiuated very thoroughly in the papers 
 which I have pubhshed, and the experiments made on the question of alcohol. 
 There is now a great difference of opinion with regard to the action of alcohol, 
 and the necessity for it, compared to wiiat w,is the state of things a few years
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 81 
 
 ago. It is not now believed that any material disadvantage would arise from E. Smith, Esq., 
 the sudden stoppage of alcoholic stimulants, assuming the prisoner to be in a m.d., ll.b., f.r.s. 
 fair state of health. ^^^ ^^ ,83^^ 
 
 854. You will understand me, that I do not insinuate that depriving them of — 
 
 spirits would eventually and permanently injure their health, because it would 
 
 probably improve it, but speaking of the effects when they are first imprisoned, 
 it, has been constantly stated, and we have had it in evidence before us, that 
 when prisoners aretirst imprisoned there is a great collapse of their vital powers. 
 Supposing that to be true, may not that be occasioned in the case of men who 
 are accustomed to drink stimulating liquors by their being suddenly deprived 
 of those liquors r 
 
 1 have said before, that I do not believe that that can occur in a way that will 
 injure health, or that will injure any function of their body. 
 
 855. Nor to occasion an}^ temjiorary difference in their health ? 
 
 No ; I should think that a plan such as I have been mentioning, where, 
 from the beginning, you would give the prisoner sufficient food and sufficient 
 exercise in the open air, would prevent that collapse of which your Lordship has 
 been speaking. 
 
 856. With regard to the increase of food necessary to a man taking exercise, 
 have vou observed that men in good healtli taking a considerable amount of 
 regular exercise, gain in weight as compared with their former weight when 
 they were leading a sedentary life, although the quantity of food consumed be 
 the same at both periods f 
 
 Yes, but do I understand the question to be this, that having taken a certain 
 amount of exertion, and that exertion having ceased, they gain weight. 
 
 857. Supposing a man, as many of us do, pass half the year in a sedentary mode 
 of life, and afterwards take a considerable deal of exercise, but living under the 
 same conditions of food, does he gain weight when he takes exercise rather than 
 when he passes a sedentary existence. 
 
 When that occurs, it must be from that which has already been mentioned, 
 namelv, that with the increase of labour, and the increase of respiration in the 
 open air, you increase the functional activity of the system, and thereby the 
 assimilation of food ; but I do not think that that can be taken as a universal state- 
 ment ; on the other hand, in prison discipline, at first the prisoner almost always 
 loses weight, even with a fair dietary, but that loss of weight is not a loss of flesh 
 in the sense in which it is generally understood ; it is the loss of fluid passing 
 from the body, and of fat. Therefore the converse might as well be stated ; if 
 any of us for a short period do not take our usual exercise we gain weight, 
 not because we have increased in flesh, but increased in fat and the fluids con- 
 tained in our bodies. 
 
 8.58. The amount of weight is not a proof of health ? 
 
 No. 
 
 859. And the diminution of weight is not a proof of losing health ? 
 
 Not at all ; it may be the reverse sometimes. 
 
 S60. Then that substance which you do lose under those circumstances is 
 not the healthy part of your system ? 
 
 It is not even a necessary part of the system ; supposing we took a Turkish 
 bath, we should lose perhaps three pounds weight by perspiration, and if a person 
 could afford to lose three pounds of fluid from the blood and tissues he would 
 be all the better for it, but if he were a thin person, and could not afford to 
 lose it, of course he would be so far injured by it. 
 
 86 1. Earl Cnt/icart.'] With regard to a question which has been put to you 
 last, you stated that the necessity for additional food would be done away with, 
 if more exercise were given ; in speaking of exercise, you refer, do you not, to 
 exercise in tlie open air ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 86'.^. When you answered the question you did not mean that more exercise 
 in mat making, or in any in-door occupation, would do away with the necessity 
 for additional food ; but you referred to exercise in the open air r 
 
 I think that it should be arranged with regard to all occupations that the 
 (37. 3.j L prisoners
 
 82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Smith, Esq., prisoners should breathe good air ; it does not follow that it should be open 
 M.n , I.L.B., F.u s. air, but good air, of which the effect would be the same. 
 
 9th March 18G3. 863. When there are a large number of prisoners together in the prison 
 
 workrooms, the fluffy matter and other things so contuminate the atmosphere 
 
 that you would not expect it to be very pure ? 
 
 The aim should be to make it pure. I know that it is not altogether pure at 
 present. 
 
 864. When you answered the question of tho noble Lord, did you mean 
 exercise in the open air or labour within doors ? 
 
 Labour, apart from every other question, will increase the vital action of the 
 body, whatever that labour may be, and however small in degree. 1 cannot 
 move my hand without increasing the vital power in an appreciable manner, 
 in a degree which I can scientifically estimate ; but if it be in the open air it 
 will increase the health much more than if the air be impure. 
 
 865. Referring to a question which has been put to you with regard to the 
 depression caused by the powers of mind and the influence of the mind upon 
 the body, are you acquainted with the last work written by Sir Benjamin 
 Brodie, his " Psychological Inquiries" ? 
 
 I have read it. 
 
 8fi6. You remember that in that book he recognises the immense importance 
 of considering the influence of the mind vipon the body ; do you not concur 
 with Sir Benjamin Brodie in reference to that? 
 
 The influence of the mind upon the body is, no doubt, very considerable. 
 
 867. You rather surprised me in your answer to the noble Lord President's 
 question, that you did not attach so much importance to the influence of the 
 mind upon the body as I had been led to attribute since reading what Sir 
 Benjamin Brodie has written upon the subject ; but with regard to your medical 
 reading, have you not read that there is an immense difference between the 
 advance of an army and the retreat of an army with respect to the feelings of 
 the oflicers and the men ; that is to say, in the advance they are full of spirits, 
 but in the retreat they are weak and dispirited ? 
 
 I have no doubt of it. 
 
 868. The more the mind is depressed, and the more intellectual the prisoner 
 is, the more liable is he to catch that impression ? 
 
 I have little doubt of it. 
 
 860. Have you not read that in the Foundhng Hospital at Paris they tried 
 to feed the children upon a Uquor made with bones in an apparatus like a 
 digester ? 
 
 Those experiments were made by what was called the " Gelatin Commission," 
 and they ascertained that they could not feed dogs upon bone liquor ; but we 
 have ever since questioned the results obtained from this very ground, that they 
 gave them only bone hquor, and it is manifest that no animal can Hve upon 
 bone liquor only ; but whether that liquor may be made a part of the dietary is 
 quite a different question ; and when I take gelatine, which is a material ob- 
 tained from bones, I find that it is transformed'iuto the nitrogenous compounds 
 which pass out of the body, and therefore it must be useful as food. 
 
 870. Are you not aware that the children at the Foundling Hospital in Paris 
 who were fed upon this bone liquor (of course there was other food given with 
 the bone liquor, such as bread and other things), became exceedingly scro- 
 fulous ? 
 
 I am not aware of that experiment. 
 
 871. Are vou aware that a number of persons cannot adopt a milk die! 
 at all ? 
 
 There are very few, speaking generally. As physician to the Consumption 
 Hospital, where I have; to order milk in all my cases (and I have many thou- 
 sands of them), I find that if the milk be varied in quantity, and given hot, and 
 sometimes skimmed milk be given where new milk cannot be taken, very tew 
 per.-ons, speaking in a general sense at any rate, could be found by whom milk 
 
 could not be taken. 
 
 872. You
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 83 
 
 872. Vou state that you would give exerdse in the open air, and not so E. Smith, Esq , 
 
 much meat ; l^earing in mind the g-reat variation in the cHmate of this country, md-, li-b • f.u.s 
 
 what species of open-air exercise would you propose to give the prisoners r \i~TT ->(•■ 
 
 The best kind of exercise I think that I could suggest is stone-breaking ; ~ ^^^^^^^ '3- 
 that meets tlit' question in almost every aspect. 
 
 St.S- Are you aware that stone -breaking is not remunerative at all, and that 
 the expense of brin^iing the stone into the yard, and carting it out again, is 
 more than the value of the labour bestowed upon breaking that stone ? 
 
 That may be so. I do not know that ; but I think this, that the eifect of 
 the system would be the best of any punishment that could be devised for 
 prison discipline, in reference to health and as discipline also, because the 
 punishment is rather degrading in its natvu'e ; it is also exercise in the open air, 
 and it should be in some places remunerative. 
 
 874. You are aware that, out of doors, it is considered the occupation mostly 
 of old people ; and that people who are incapable of other work are employed 
 in stone-breaking in rural districts ? 
 
 It is very likely. 
 
 ■S75. So that if stones were all broken in prison, it would have a material 
 effect upon the means of gaining a livehhood of a great many most respectable 
 persons ? 
 
 There is a great demand for broken stones in towns ; therefore I believe that 
 that objection would not apply universally. 
 
 876. With regard to the diet of the labouring class, you are aware that it 
 differs most materially in different parts of the countr)' ? 
 
 It differs in the names of the food used. I do not think it differs so much 
 in the nutritive materials contained in the food. 
 
 877. Do you not attribute much importance to the experience of all the gaol 
 surgeons throughout the country, who have constantly had the regulation of 
 the diet of prisoners under their supervision r 
 
 When I see the greatest possible diversity in the labour enforced, in the 
 rotation of that labour, and in the dietaries, and that the dietaries depend 
 merely upon the duration of the punishment, I cannot see any necessity in 
 the case. I could not, therefore, inform myself as to what are the opinions 
 of the surgeons upon that point. 
 
 878. Have you not considered the extraordinary diversity which there is in 
 different sentences for the same offence ? 
 
 I know that there is a great diversity in that respect. 
 
 879. Do not you tliink that the carrying out of the system of diet in different 
 prisons depends in a great measure upon the experience of the surgeons ? 
 
 I think if there were a basis diet adopted, which would be proved upon good 
 principles to be sufficient for the prisoners in ordinary conditions, then the 
 surgeon must have power to increase it in states of ill health, or those tendino- 
 to ill health. 
 
 880. Do not you think that the increase of the dietary by the surgeon 
 would be the rule and not the exception "r 
 
 Tlie aim should be that the standard dietary should not be too low, but 
 sufficient to maintain the system in the condition in which it is placed. 
 
 881. I observe in one of the last Inspector's Reports, that in one prison the 
 surgeon gave ale to above .50 of the prisoners ; could you conceive any circum- 
 stance which would justify a surgeon in so doing r 
 
 I should not do so myself, certainly ; but there is a great difference of 
 opinion amongst medical men on this subject, arising out of their imperfect 
 knowledge of the action of alcohol. On many of those questions I should say 
 that science is gnatly increasing our knowledge, and that we must not take 
 authorit)- as our guide always. 
 
 882. Is not the giving of molasses a cheap form of administering carbon to 
 the system \ 
 
 It is one of the forms, and it is considerably cheaper than sugar, but it is 
 much dearer than starch. In my report on the nourishment of the Lancashire 
 operatives J have shown that sugar is three times dearer than oatmeal as a 
 nutrient, omitting any reference to the nitrogen contained in the oatmeal. 
 
 (37. 3.) L 2 883. Are
 
 E. 
 
 Smith, 
 
 Esq., 
 
 M.D.; 
 
 , LL.B., 
 
 r.R.s. 
 
 gth 
 
 Maich 
 
 1863. 
 
 84 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 883. Ave you aware that in cattle feeding, and the feeding of pigs, molasses is 
 frequently given as a cheap means of administering carbon to the animal system ? 
 
 Yes, but Lavves and Gilbert, who are the great authorities upon those ques- 
 tions, have shown tliat sugar is three or four times dearer than starch in its 
 fattening properties upon cattle. 
 
 >'-'S-i. Could you put in a statement of the diet, which is considered the 
 standard of diet as allowed in one half of the prisons in the country, which you 
 have already referred too ? 
 
 I have not such a statement, but it is in the " Dietary for Convicts, &:c." 
 which was published in 185/ by the Government. 
 
 855. Would you refer to that dietary and tell the Committee in what 
 manner you would alter the diet table if you were going to propose a standard ? 
 
 I am quite familiar with it ; I think that the lowest class is so low that the 
 system could not be sustained upon it. 
 
 886. Chainnan.'] Would it not sustain an individual for a short time only: 
 I think that every day the system must lose. 
 
 887. Earl Cathcart.'] Will you take the lowest class of dietary at page 45, and 
 state what it is — take breakfast first ? 
 
 At breakfast they are all allowed a pint of oatmeal gruel, which contains two 
 ounces of oatmeal, and two ounces of oatmeal will furnish 350 grains of carbon 
 and \7h grains of nitrogen ; on each alternate day the gruel is sweetened with 
 I oz. of sugar or molasses, which will give 131 grains of carbon. The quantity 
 which I have recommended for the Lancashire operatives, and which is, I think, 
 only that which is necessary for the wants of the system, is 1,400 grains of 
 carbon for breakfast and 70 grains of nitrogen ; therefore two ounces of oatmeal 
 bear no proportion whatever to the wants of the system ; 1 lb. of bread is also 
 taken at dinner, or divided between the three meals, and therefore of course 
 that must be taken into account ; and a pint of oatmeal gruel is also given for 
 supper. The total daily nutriment is, carbon 2,791 grains, and nitrogen 124 
 grains. 
 
 888. Marquess of Salisburi/.] Could you put that in in the shape of a return ? 
 Yes, I will do so. 
 
 889. Earl Cathcart.] Do you consider Class I. of the Secretary of State's 
 dietary suflicient r 
 
 I think it totally insufficient- 
 
 890. Do you think that it is totally insufficient even for a small man : 
 It is totally insufficient for any man. 
 
 891. Then for a very large man it is almost starvation. 
 It is starvation. 
 
 892. Chairman.] Are you speaking now with regard to the dietary of '•' con- 
 victed prisoners confined for any term not exceeding seven days " r 
 
 Yes ; I should like always, in speaking of this subject, to refer to what takes 
 place on one day. I say that on the particular day on which you give the 
 prisoners this food it is insufficient, and therefore the less the number of days, 
 the less the injury, and the greater the number of days the greater the injury. 
 The evil occurs rather in those persons who are often committed for sliort 
 periods. When it happens only once or twice, I am informed that it has little 
 influence practically, but it is when they are frequently recommitted for short 
 sentences that material injury is caused to their health. 
 
 893. Earl Cathcart.] What is your opinion of Class II. ? 
 I should think that insufficient also. 
 
 894. What is your opinion with regard to Class III., the dietary for " Con- 
 victed i)risoners employed at hard labour for terms exceeding 21 days, but not 
 more than six weeks r" 
 
 I should think that that scale is abundant ; there is more meat than is neces- 
 sary, generally speaking, both in Class III. and Class IV. and Class V. 1 con- 
 sider with regard to meat. Classes III. and IV. are abundant. 
 
 895. Is it not often the case in the longer terras of imprisonment that occa- 
 sion arises for additional food ? 
 
 Not in the way that I have been speaking of. If you give them from the 
 
 first
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 85 
 
 first a sufficient dietary and a sufficient amount of exercise in the open air to -£'. Smith, Esq.y 
 enable them to digest their food, then there is no necessity for increasing |tlie *'■'*•' '-'••^•» *'-R-s- 
 food with the duration of the imprisonment. 1^ jyj^j, jg{ „ 
 
 896. Have you noticed, in your visits to various prisons, that the prisoners 
 have generally a blanched and bloodless look ? 
 
 Yes, I have noticed that. 
 
 897. To what do you attribute it?^ 
 
 Merel)' to the want of due assimilation of the food, and that may be proved 
 in another way. The amount of faeces passed by all the prisoners in our 
 experiments, was 10 ounces a day, whilst the amount passed by ordinary 
 members of the community, is only four. There you find a waste of material 
 passing off from the prisoner to an amount equal to that contained in a pint 
 of milk a day, which shows that the prisoners' blanched appearance is owing 
 to their deficient assimilation of food. 
 
 898. When you treat cases of insanity, do you not give the patient very 
 nutritious food ^ 
 
 It is very important to do so. 
 
 899. Would not the influence of insufficient diet be to superinduce insanity ? 
 It would of course lower their physical condition, and therefore have a 
 
 tendency in that direction. 
 
 900. Are you aware that insanity prevails to a great extent in prisons where 
 there is an insufficiency of diet? 
 
 I am not aware of that as a fact. 
 
 90 1 . You stated, that you object very much to prisoners passing their time 
 in idleness ; when you speak of idleness, do you refer to the case of prisoners 
 who are put into cells on purpose that they may reflect, and that minds may 
 re-act upon themselves r 
 
 I can only speak of it in a medical sense, and in that point of view I am sure it 
 would injure the health. Solitary confinement, without labour, I should object 
 to, so far as health is concerned ; in that case, the system would go down in spite 
 of anything that you could do, and in spite of any diet that you can give. 
 
 902. Duke of Marlhoroug]i.~\ In answer to the question put to you by the 
 noble Lord, you have just stated, that in some prisoners who had a blanched 
 look, there was a greater waste from the system, than in the case of persons in 
 the ordinary state of life. To what do you attribute that greater waste ? 
 
 To the passing out of material unused ; I do not refer to the waste of the 
 system, but to the waste of food. 
 
 903. To what do you attribute that ? 
 
 To defective assimilation, due to defective vital action. 
 
 004. Do you mean defective digestion ? 
 
 Yes; and a further act, which is called assimilation, which is the absorption 
 of the digested food and its conversion into the tissues of the body. Those two 
 acts may be separated partly, but they will generally go together. 
 
 90,5. To what do you attribute that defective assimilation ? 
 
 To whatever forms a component of the confinement, to the effect upon the 
 mind (whenever that effect occurs), of deficiency of exercise, to the want of 
 movement of the air which is necessary to the vital actions of the system, and 
 where confinement is maintained in cells, to deficiency of light. All these things, 
 the deficiency of light, the diminished purity and decreased movement of the 
 air, and the deficiency of exercise, must have an eflfect upon the man ; and all 
 these will occur together in the conditions of confinement. 
 
 906. Then the Committee are to understand that you consider exercise to be 
 indispensable in order to produce that assimilation which is requisite to 
 health ? 
 
 Quite indispensable. 
 
 Q07. With regard to such work as mat-making and those employments which 
 would be conducted in a sitting posture, such as breaking stones or anything of 
 that sort, would those be descriptions of exercise which would conduce to the 
 proper assimilation of the food ? 
 
 (37.3.) L3 I think
 
 86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Smith, Esq., I tliink you must have movement of the whole body in addition to that. The 
 
 M.D., LL.B., F.B.s. effpcj Qf ordinar)- manufactures is to increase the waste of the body during" the 
 «.i, %A T ,er„ period of work to about one-half more than that occurriu"' at rest ; but in the 
 
 Qtn March )f<o3- t^ . i-i, -i ., ... .", ,. 
 
 exercise which they give tliem in tlie round ring m prisons, where tlie speed is 
 
 about three miles an hour, the waste is about three times the amount of that 
 ordinarily proceeding from the body. 
 
 908, In the comparisons which you have given, you suggested, did vou not, 
 that the prison diet should be assimilated as much as possible to the diet used 
 by aijricultural labourers in diflferent parts of the country : 
 
 Yes. 
 
 qo(). Are not the species of occupations which prisoners might be expected 
 to follow in gaols rather those of a manufacturing population thitn what agri- 
 cultural labourers would pursue ; for instance, are not such occupations 'c\r> mat- 
 making aud stone-breaking in a great degree sedentary occupations not 
 involving the motion of the entire body, as is the case with the agricultural 
 labourer ? 
 
 Yes ; I think the difference is, that in one case you have less exposure to the 
 open air, and a less general movement of the body ; but both conditions can be 
 met by giving periods of exercise alternating with periods of mat-making. 
 
 Qio. Have you ever in the course of your experiments endeavoured to ascer- 
 tain wiiat is the amount of waste upon the body of persons engaged in weaving, 
 or any of those pursuits -which persons fellow in manufacturing towns .- 
 
 Mv experiments have only been made with walking and all kinds of labour 
 in which the body alrogether is moved, and the effect of walking at certain 
 definite rates of speed ; my endeavour has been to compare all other labour to 
 walking at definite rates ; at present no experiments have been made upon 
 labour conducted in a sitting posture only. 
 
 oil. Would it not l)e very important that experiments should be made in 
 that particular branch of labour, in order to see how far prison labour, which 
 is assimilated to that more than any other, can be judged of by comparison 
 with it ? 
 
 It Avould be very valuable ; but we know the limits of waste ; we know that 
 it cannot exceed 1 3 in ordinary cases. 
 
 012. You stated, did 3'ou not, that there is great disparity of diet in the 
 different prisons r 
 Yes. 
 
 Q13. In some prisons the diet, as prescribed bj' the Home Office, is not fol- 
 lowed ; aud, in fact, diet of a much more genercus kind is allowed in those 
 prisons. If you were asked, what should you say is the prevailing opinion 
 among the prison authorities in those cases where an over-generous diet is 
 allowed r 
 
 1 think that that has arisen in this way ; it was found with the low diet, in 
 former times, that the s}'stem gave way, and the prisoner sank in health ; and 
 when it was referred to persons of distinction to recommend a dietary to meet 
 that deticienc}-, they recommended this higher dietary ; but as there were not 
 sufficient scientific data existing with i-egard to the food question, they could not 
 make a calculation by which to determine accurately what should be the increase. 
 They fell into a very natural error, and have given an excess. At the present 
 time if I were to be required to frame a new scheme of dietary with the 
 deficient knowledge that we have (and accurate knowledge could not he ob- 
 tained except by experiments in prisons), 1 should be obliged to err on the 
 safe side, and give too much. 
 
 914. Do vou suppose that it would be possible eventually, taking into 
 account the differences of constitution, to frame a uniform scale of dietary for 
 all prisons ? 
 
 I cannot see the least difficulty, only that we should require a large amount 
 of certain kinds of knowledge which are necessary. For example, the points 
 upon which we are at pre-ent deficient in knowledge are these : we want to 
 determine precisely the effect of mere confinement upon the system ; we only 
 know, in a i^eneral wav, that it does depress the system ; but it must be deter- 
 mined i^recisely. Then we want to determine precisely the effect of meat, 
 
 whether
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 87 
 
 whether meat is necessary in any quantit}-, and in what quantity it is necessary-. £. Smith, Esq., 
 Then, whether fat, which is a dearer food than starch, with which it is analugous ''•''•' i- i-b., f .r.«. 
 in coniposilion, can be supplanted by starch, or in what proportion it must be . j^^^jj, jgg„ 
 
 givrn. We must also know what is the precise effect upon the system of ^ . 
 
 those various punishments which are to be recommended ; and having first of 
 all decided upon those punishments of a definite kind, we must then know what 
 would be the amount of food necessary to meet that particular case ; so that we 
 have many subjects about wliich we are at present ignorant, and which 
 are absolutelv necessary- to be understood before we can form a new scheme of 
 dietar}-, but all of which information can be obtained by proper experiments in 
 prisons. 
 
 9 1 5. If it were put into your hands to carry out such a scheme, how would 
 vou pro]icse to determine those points ? 
 
 I should first take a basis dietary, such as is used by the agricultural popula- 
 tion, and such as I think would be suitable for persons condemned to light 
 labour, or not to hard labour ; with thut dietary I should think it necessary 
 that they should have so Ji.uch exercise, or so much labour in the open air as 
 should induce the whole of that food to be assimilated. That is the great diffi- 
 culty which must be overcome by experiment, namely, to find out what amount 
 of labour is necessary with a given dietary to enable the whole of the food to 
 be assimilated. For that purpose it would be necessarj' to take, perhaps, five 
 prisoners of average age and power, and place them upon this dietary — to deter- 
 mine every day the effect upon the weight of the body, the colour of the blood, 
 and a so the effect upon tb.e excretions — that is to say, to prove whether due 
 assimilation occurs by determining the amount of food passing off by the 
 faeces ; that is the only scientific inquiry which is necessary. If it be shown 
 that the whole of the faeces were so reduced in nutritive vdue as to be only 
 eijual to that of an ordinary individual of the community, then we should suppose 
 that a proper proportion of the food was assimilated. 
 
 916. Would you follow out those experiments with regard to hard labour as 
 well r 
 
 Yes. Having first ot" all settled the previous question (which might require a 
 great deal of variation in regard to the elements of food), with regard to light 
 labour, and having determined also the propcrticnate effect of the different kinds of 
 hard labour upon the system, T should be able to devise experimentally a 
 scheme of diet which would meet the case. I should take five persons upon 
 each of the systems of hard labour, and put them upon that dietarj-, and deter- 
 mine hi the same way the effect of this food upon them. In the course of 
 twelve months 1 have no doubt that a sufficient number of experiments would 
 have been made to settle the whole of these questions. 
 
 917 In order to determine any question of that sort accurately, it would be 
 necessary to have some species of labour which would be vmiform in its character 
 in all prisons. Do you think that it is possible to devise any scale of hard labour 
 which could be so uniform in its character "r 
 
 We can do that, except v\ith regard to those conditions which are inherent to 
 each individual body, such, for example, as weight. If we take the treadwheel, 
 for example, which is a very good form of punishment for that purpose, and so 
 arrange t!iat the prisoner can stand upon his centre of gravity, that is to say, 
 so arrange the bar above the wheel that the centre of gravity should also be 
 the centre of his body, and be not thrown in front of his body as it is now, 
 and if we regulate the speed of the wheel, in that way we should determine 
 accurately and uniformly the effect upon the system. The only difference would 
 be caused by the weight of the individual. concerned. If, say, I am 200 lbs. weight, 
 and you put me upon the treadwheel, I have to lift three tons through one foot 
 per minute, whilst a person wlio only weighs 100 lbs. may only have to lift one 
 and half t-ms per minute, so that there is great variation. 
 
 018. In the strict application of the treadwheel to these questions, do I 
 rightly understand you to state that the treadwheel, as at present constructed, 
 aliov.s of very great variations in the amount of labour which it imposes upon 
 jivisoners ? 
 
 Yes, according to the rapidity of ascent, and according to the position in 
 which the body is held. If the body is allowed to stand upon its centre of 
 
 f37. 3-) L 4 granty,
 
 ai V. 
 
 538 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Siuith, Esq., gravity, the amount of waste of the body is less than it would be if it were 
 ^'"°-' FR-s. hanging behind its centre of gravity. 
 
 &th Alarch 1S6 3. pifj_ l\\en 1 understand you that the treadwlieel is capable of considerable 
 mechanical improvement, so that it may be made to administer a far fairer 
 amount of h;ird labour than it does now ? 
 
 Yes ; it can be made, 1 believe, an uniform punishment for persons of the same 
 weight, and also uniform with regard to ascent. 
 
 920. We have been considering the question of diet in a sanitary point of 
 view ; what do you conceive would be the injurious effect of the present high 
 dietary in any other point of view ? 
 
 I should think that the effect must be very prejudicial, in this way, that per- 
 sons do not object to going to prison ; there is not so much to deter them from 
 prison, and therefore to deter them from crime, as there ought to be ; I think 
 that by a system in which the food is only just sufficient to meet the wants of 
 the human frame, and where it is of a very simple kind, and where the system 
 is one rather of punishment, you will deter persons from crime much more 
 than you do, under present circumstances. 
 
 921. I understood you to state, that with increased exercise a much lower 
 dietary might be administered with perfect safety ; do you consider that in the 
 present system, with a deficiency of exercise, and with a high dietar}% there is 
 anything injurious to health ? 
 
 I think that the main difference is the loss of food ; that you lose a great deal 
 of food every day ; but there is, in addition, the moral effect upon the prisoner. 
 
 922. So that there is a great waste of food which you may look upon in an 
 economical point of view, as well as in a sanitary point of view r 
 
 Quite so. 
 
 923. "When you speak of conducting experiments on prisoners, is there any 
 power to conduct those experiments now ? 
 
 Ihe Home Secretary has the power of authorising experiments in prisons, 
 I believe. 
 
 924. You are not aware of any power, besides that of the Home Secretary's, 
 to conduct those experiments ? 
 
 No. 
 
 925. Have the Visiting Justices power in prisons to order experiments of 
 that nature ? 
 
 It could not be done as a matter of right ; they would have no power, in the 
 strict sense of the word. Those experiments which I made at Coldbath Fields 
 were made with the concurrence of the Visiting Justices, and without an appli- 
 cation to the Secretary of State. I think that all those experiments such as we 
 are speaking of, would have to be made by a prison official of competent 
 scientific knowledge, such as an inspector of prisons should be, or by a scientific 
 officer appointed for the purpose. 
 
 926. Eaii of Hotnnet/.] You think that the present system does the prisoner 
 harm, and is also a loss to society ? 
 
 Quite so. 
 
 927. AVith regard to the dietaries, Class I. and Class \l., you said that you 
 thought tliey were too low ; do you think that in a case of a person imprisoned 
 for any time not exceeding seven days, would be likely to receive any harm to 
 his constitution by being on that dietary for so short a time ? 
 
 It might not be a degree of harm that yon could define, but as I mentioned 
 before, it is the repetition of these seven days, in the case of persons committed 
 over and over again that has been proved to have a most prejudicial influence 
 upon the system, and we can prove that for every day he is confined he is re- 
 ceiving injury, and that his system is not receiving so much as it is giving 
 out. 
 
 92 S. Strictly speaking, when a prisoner is in prison, those in authority are 
 boimd, are thev not, to give him the diet as had down bv law ? 
 Yes. 
 
 929. With regard to the diet, you have stated that you would take as a 
 basis the amount of food which is used by the largest number of common 
 
 agricultural
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 89 
 
 ag;ricultural labourers; do not 3^011 think that there is a great distinction e. Smitli, -Es/j., 
 
 between the condition of agricultural labourers and those broken down consti- m.d., ll.b., r.K-s:. 
 tutions which prisoners generally have ? ~ ^ 
 
 I do not know for a fact that the system is generally broken down in ^ '^^ 
 
 prison. 
 
 930. I mean that the men themselves when they come into prison are broken 
 down in constitution to a great extent by their habits of life ? 
 
 I believe that they have a lower grade of health, as ascertained in a general 
 manner, than other classes of the community, but not so much so that the 
 term " broken down " would apply to them, speaking generally. 
 
 931. They are injured by their habits of living, are they not? 
 Yes. 
 
 932. '^'ou stated that you thought it was not of very great importance to 
 change the labour, and that it would be undesirable with regard to hard labour 
 to shift the nature of the hard work, that is to say, to have the prisoners 
 employed jiart of the time on the treadwheel, and part of the time at the crank, 
 and part of the time in stone breaking ; that you thought it better to keep 
 them at one employment during the day. What is your reason for thinking . 
 that ? 
 
 I think that you would get a more uniform system by that means ; and the 
 fact of monotony occurring in prison punishments, if the punishments be 
 themselves right, and be sufficiently met by food, is an advantage in prison 
 discipline. 
 
 933. So far as discipline is concerned, you would prefer uniformity ? 
 Yes, I think there should be uniformity with regard to discipline. 
 
 934. But, medically speaking, you would prefer variation, would you not ? 
 \es, I shoidd think so, provided that the effect of the same punishment was 
 
 the same upon the system, not as is the case now, when they would ]3ut a 
 prisoner upon the treadwheel one day, and put him to oakum picking the next 
 day, and call them both hard labour. 
 
 935. Do you think that it is desirable for health to get all the pai-ts of the 
 bodv into action in the course of the day ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 936. With regard to the treadwheel and the crank, would not each of them 
 bring into play one particular portion of the body and not others ? 
 
 The treadwheel, I think, affects nearly all portions of the body; the prisoners 
 hang by the hands, and the muscles at the back are strained to maintain the 
 body in its centre of gravity, and they are using the legs at the same time. 
 
 937. Having regard to all those conditions, you think that it is desirable that 
 thev should be emploved at one time ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 938. Do you think that there is anything in the treadwheel that is injurious 
 to a man, as producing rupture, varicose veins, or anything of that sort ? 
 
 Yes ; but not, perhaps, more than in other systems of punishment, having 
 the same effect upon th(^ system. For instance, in affections of the heart, you 
 ■would not put a prisoner on the treadwheel, ])ecause the action of the heart 
 amounts to from TiO to 160 pidsations per minute on the treadwheel ; neither 
 would you put a person on the treadwheel with asthma or any affection of the 
 chest, because the amount of respiration, instead of being 40 cubic inches each 
 respiration, becomes 100 cubic inches; neither would you put any prisoner 
 with any deformity upon the treadwheel, but only persons with a fair amount 
 of health. 
 
 939. You would recommend the use of common discretion in the treatment 
 of prisoners as well as on any other subject ? 
 
 Just so. 
 
 940. Is there any difficulty in detecting heart disease ? 
 Not if care be taken by a proper person. 
 
 (37.3.) M 041. Do
 
 90 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Smith, Esq., 94 1 . Do you know whether it is the duty of the surgeon of a prison to 
 ii.D., LL.B. F.R.s. examine info those things, and see whether a prisoner is or is not fit to be put 
 9thM^i863. "ponthe wheel ? , ^^ . . . ^ ^ ^ , 
 
 It IS his duty; whether it is carried out, 1 do not know. There are but few- 
 prisons in the country in which there is a resident surgeon, and therefore many 
 of those medical questions are insufficiently attended to on that very ground. 
 
 942. If a prisoner complained as he came off the wheel, would it not be the 
 proper course to take, that the surgeon should go up to the wheel and 
 examine him at the time that he comes off? 
 
 I do not know that tliat would very much affect the issue. 
 
 943. Do you know whether it would make much difference if you examine 
 him one or two hours afterwards in his cell ? 
 
 Of course the effect of the prison punishment wouldjpass away when he is in 
 a state of rest. 
 
 944. If it was a doubtful case, the surgeon ought to go up to the wheel and 
 examine the prisoner, ought he not ? 
 
 Yes, if it were a doubtful case, I think so. 
 
 945. It is quite easy to detect the conditions of heart disease, is it not ? 
 Yes, generally speaking, it is so. 
 
 946. Duke of Marlborough.'] Do you believe that it would be a case of rare 
 occurrence that a disease of the heart should exist and not be detected by the 
 surgeon, and that a prisoner might be put upon the treadwheel and go througti 
 his labour, and come off the treadwheel again without the heart affection beiug 
 detected, so that gradually a heart affection might be developed ? 
 
 I think it is very possible. I should think the prisoners are not examined 
 as to the condition of the heart and lungs, or not examined in all cases ; but 
 I have no positive knowledge upon that point. 
 
 947. Earl of Romney.'] Are you largely acquainted with prisons? 
 
 It has been my experience to get much into them, and to make mvself 
 acquainted with them, but I have no official position in connexion with them. 
 
 94S. Afe you aware that almost a constant business in prisons is hearing 
 complaints from prisoners, making excuses, sometimes with good reason, and 
 sometimes with bad, to get off their labour ? 
 
 I should suppose that very likely. 
 
 949. It is not very likely that a man, if he had a complaint of the heart, 
 would not cry out in sufficient time ? 
 
 I think that every prisoner should have his heart and lungs examined on 
 entering prison, and that that should be recorded on his entry into prison, before 
 he is put to hard labour ; but whether that is done as a rule I doubt very much. 
 Disease of the heart frequently exists without the person being aware of it. 
 
 9.50. Duke oi Marlborough.'] Would it not be a proper precaution to take, 
 that the surgeon should examine the prisoner after he comes off the tread- 
 wheel rather than before he goes on ; and would not the action of the heart 
 upon his coming off the wheel, supposing that the examination took place 
 immediately, be a more sure indication of any disease than it would be before 
 he goes on ? 
 
 No ; diseases of the heart are best determined when a man is in a state of 
 quietude. 
 
 0.5 1 . Karl of Romney.] Do you know that it is the duty of the surgeon to be 
 at the prison every day ? 
 
 I believe it is once or twice a day. 
 
 952. And to examine every prisoner when he comes in ? 
 
 Yes ; but whether he examines into the state of the lungs and the heart as we 
 understand by examination is another question- What the profession understand 
 by examination of the lungs and heart is not a mere visual examination. 
 
 9,53. Earl of Ducie.] You have stated, have you not, that a strictly regulated 
 diet, in wliich there is no surplus whatever, but in which the prisoners have 
 
 exactly
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 91 
 
 exactly enough to meet the waste of the body, would rather tend to deter E. Smiih, Esq., 
 prisoners from crime ? m.d., ll.b., f.h.s, 
 
 I should think so. 
 
 9.-'54. At the same time you state that the low diet for short sentences in 
 Class 1 is insufHcient, and may be mischievous when often repeated ? 
 Quite so. 
 
 955. Do not you think that if a strictly regulated diet tends to deter from 
 crime an excessively low diet, ct fortior'i, will tend in a greater degree to keep 
 men from crime? 
 
 It is a question whether the diet should be used as an instrument of punish- 
 ment. Sir James Graham in the instructions given to the Commissioners who 
 framed this dietary, stated distinctly that it should not be made an instrument of 
 punishment ; but it is impossible in looking at this dietary to see that it is not 
 the most powerful instrument that the justices possess, and that it is used as 
 an instrument of punishment. 
 
 956. Short sentences are frequently given, are they not, on purpose to insure 
 very low diet, which shall be looked upon as a punitive measure ? 
 
 Then that is evidence that it is used as an instrument of punishment, contrary 
 to Sir James Graham's instructions to the Commissioners. 
 
 957. That is the case also in the Government dietaries, is it not ? 
 The lowest class of Government diet is quite insufficient. 
 
 9.5S. You admitted, in answer to a question, the injurious effect of depression 
 under certain circumstances out of doors. Are you aware that that depression 
 to a great extent exists among prisoners ? 
 
 Yes, I believe that it exists, but not to an extent to injure the health, provided 
 that there be sufficient exertion in the open air. 
 
 959- But mental depression is not a thing of frequent occurrence to any 
 great extent, is it ? 
 
 It would not affect any system of discipline and dietary, provided other things 
 were made suitable to the condition of the prisoner. 
 
 960. You state that there is no difficulty in framing a general dietary for 
 prisons ; would the geographical position of a prison, as to \\ hether it stood high 
 or low according to the conditions of the neighbouring atmosphere, affect the 
 question in any way ? 
 
 I think not. We should not be able, in framing a dietaiy, to come within a 
 few grains of carbon, neither attempt it, because of the variations in the weight 
 of the body ; we should take a medium, which would be found to be a little in 
 excess for the light ones, and a little in defect for the heavy ones. 
 
 901 . It has often been urged that where the position of a prison is geographi- 
 cally low. a much higher scale of diet would be necessary ; in your opinion, is 
 that a fallacy ? 
 
 I should think that if the position were so low as to diminish the vital powers 
 of the system, the men must either have more exercise or more highly nitro- 
 genised food. 
 
 962. There is great variation in the altitude of different prisons, as you are 
 
 gth March 1803. 
 
 aware 
 
 9 
 
 Yes ; but mere altitude, I would say, does not affect the question, whether it 
 is high, or whether it is low, but the question is, whether the prison is so low 
 as to be in a state unfavourable to the health of persons living outside the 
 prison ; that would be sufficient evidence whether the prison were too low. 
 
 963. It has been stated tiiat the Oxford gaol lies so low as to be in a compara- 
 tively unhealthy condition ; are you aware whether such is the case ? 
 
 In Oxfordshire there is some ague, which imphes that it is low, but whether 
 the lunnan system is of less power in Oxfordshire than elsewhere we have not 
 evidence to show. 
 
 964. Duke of Marlborough.] Have you examined the Oxford gaol ? 
 No, I have not been to the Oxford gaol. 
 
 (37- 3.) M 2 965. Marquess
 
 92 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 S. Smith, Esq., 
 
 JI.D., I.L.B., F.R.S. 
 
 Qth March 18G3. 
 
 965. Marquess of Salisbury.] You have stated that in your opinion no differ- 
 ence is caused by the aUitude of a prison unless the neio;hbourhood is positively 
 unhealthy, and you have referred frequently to Coldbath Fields prison ; do you 
 know anything of the Penitentiary at Millbank ? 
 
 1 have not made any experiments in the Penitentiary at INlillbank. 
 
 966. You are not awai'e that there is any considerable diiference of diet 
 there ? 
 
 I think that there would be no difference caused by the difference of altitude 
 between that and Coldbath Fields. 
 
 967. You stated, did you not, that the waste of the system by treadwheel 
 labour is double that caused by crank labour, or rather in the proportion of 
 
 14 to 2. 
 
 Yes, about that, according to the present system. Perhaps I should state, 
 in reference to my experiments, from which that computation is derived, that 
 in crank labour the prisoner is required to perform 13, .500 revolutions a day, 
 and in the treadwheel at Coldbath Fields the ascent is 1-36 miles; there must 
 be uniformity in those conditions, or else I cannot compare them. 
 
 968. Do you conceive that labour on the treadwheel involves a necessity for 
 a much higher diet than labour on the crank ? 
 
 That would depend upon the labour exacted at each of them, because it is 
 not the same in any two prisons. 
 
 969. Is not there the same proportion between them, namely, 25 per cent.? 
 One is one and a half and the other is two. But we have a certain amount 
 
 of waste of body which always occurs in a state of absolute rest. I re^jard that 
 as my basis line. I assume that you must always supply, even in absolute rest, 
 a certain quantity of food to meet that waste. One and a half of that will 
 meet the waste of the whole 24 hours at the crank, and twice that will meet 
 the waste of the body from treadwheel labour at Coldbath Fields. The expe- 
 riments on crank labour gave the following exact results : — 
 
 At Wandsworth Prison. — Total daily labour, 13,500 revolutions. 
 
 Pressure. 
 
 Lbs 
 
 r- { 
 
 12 
 
 I 
 
 Revolutions per 
 Minute. 
 
 30 
 4.D-7 
 
 30 
 44-7 
 
 Jleau of 
 
 Revolutions per 
 
 Minute. 
 
 / 
 
 37-8 
 
 37-3 
 
 { 
 
 Increase over 
 
 Rest during the 
 
 Labour. 
 
 Meau 
 of Increase. 
 
 2-05 
 3- 
 
 2-8 
 4-2 
 
 Increase over 
 
 Rest in 
 the 24 Hours. 
 
 1 
 / 
 
 3-5 
 
 1-36 
 1-46 
 
 1.57 
 1-67 
 
 Mean 
 of Increase. 
 
 I 1-42 
 
 i 
 
 I 62 
 
 Q-o. Do you make allowance in that for the number of hours of rest? 
 
 Yes. If I find that 20 ounces of bread are sufficient to maintain the body in 
 a state of rest, tlien I must give one half more, or 30 ounces, for the crank, 
 and as I have doubled the amount of waste with the treadwheel that I should 
 have at rest, I must give 40 ounces for the treadwheel. That is my illus- 
 tration. 
 
 971. You conceive that there should be a material difference between the 
 treadwheel and the Crank labour ? 
 
 If those conditions are maintained. Of course it is easy to make the crank 
 and the treadwheel precisely the same in their effect on the system, and that 
 is what I should seek for, namely, to have an absolute uniformity in those 
 employments. 
 
 972. Would that be possible? 
 
 Quite so. It is merelv a question of the pressure you put upon the crank, 
 and the rapidity of bodily ascent upon the treadwheel. 
 
 973. Does not the treadwheel act with greater uniformity upon the system 
 than any other species of prison employment ? 
 
 I think it does. 
 
 974. Does the crank act with equal uniformity upon the body? 
 
 It does not act much upon the lower limbs. It acts upon the arras and the 
 
 back ;
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 93 
 
 back ; and therefore persons who are accustomed to use their arms and backs E. Smith, Esq., 
 
 as day labourers would find the crank a much easier punislnnent than clerks *'•''■• ^^■''•j ^•'^•s- 
 
 or persons leading a sedentary life. Still, at first, I think the effect upon the 
 
 system would be greater with the crank than it would be with the tread- 9''^ March 1863. 
 
 wheel. 
 
 975. You would therefore recommend labour upon the ti'cadwheel in pre- 
 ference to labour upon the crank ? 
 
 I should think so. I do not know that the difference is so very great. 
 
 976. Do you make any allowance for the difference in the heat of the 
 weather r 
 
 - There should be a considerable allowance made for that. According to our 
 recent experiments, there must be more nitrogenous food given in hot Aveather, 
 because the vital powers of the bod}^ are diminished in hot weather. In my 
 experiments the effect of heat upon the body was to diminish the vital power 
 one-third between the beginning of June aud the beginning of August ; that is 
 to say, as the summer advanced the vital power progressively diminished, 
 taking precisely the order in which the cholera increased. As the cholera 
 increased the vital powers of the body diminished, and during that period there 
 should be a large amount of nitrogenous food given. There should be, at the 
 same time, a less amount of labour performed, because the muscular tissues of 
 the body become more relaxed in summer than in winter. In cold weather it 
 is possible to make the same amount of exertion without the same amount of 
 ■ exhaustion. 
 
 977- Would it be possible to make a scale of dietary which should be 
 adapted to the different seasons of the year, or be regulated by the thermo- 
 meter ? 
 
 Yes, I think so. But as the temperature of the cells is kept pretty uniform 
 throughout the year, the prisoners are not like persons exposed to the ordinary 
 atmosphere. I think that there should be some difference made between the 
 summer and the winter dietary, but it need not be anything very great, under 
 the jJresent system of prison discipline. 
 
 978. Do }'ou allow anything in the waste of weight for perspiration ? 
 
 Yes, that must be allowed for. In all cases of hard-labour punishments 
 there is a loss of weight under any system of dietary, partly from the loss of 
 perspiration, and partly from the loss of fat, as mentioned before. 
 
 979. Then the waste of a very fat man would be considerably greater than 
 the waste of a spare thin man ? 
 
 With an increased amount of exertion it would. I should state, with 
 regard to weight, that under every system of prison discipline the weight dimi- 
 nishes to a certain point, and that diminution takes pbice, as I have mentioned, 
 ■with regard to the fluids, and the fat. When these have been reduced to 
 a certain point, say after the first month or two months' imprisonment, the 
 weight of the prisoner remains nearly stationary during the whole period of 
 imprisonment, if the amount of food supplied is sufficient. 
 
 980. Have you had any experience in the examination of military prisons .' 
 No, I have not. 
 
 qSi. I think it is stated that a diminution of weight takes place later in the 
 confinement ; that is to say, after the average length of confinement in military 
 prisons ? 
 
 It may be that in that case the dietary is insufficient, and then, of course, it 
 would do so ; you would not only have a diminution in weight earlv, but you 
 would have it late also. I assume the question to refer to a long duration of 
 imprisonment, which brings the prisoner up to the high scale of dietary in 
 county prisons, in which he would have abundant nourishment. 
 
 982. In the report on military prisons, it appears that with a diminution of 
 weight, the health of the prisoners has greatly increased ; has that been your 
 experience ? 
 
 It is quite possible, I have no doubt. If we take a familiar illustration, in a 
 Swiss tour we may lose 10 lbs. or 14 lbs. in weight; but we improve in health, 
 because we get rid of material which we do not want in the system, and which, 
 
 (37. 3.) M 3 in
 
 94 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Smith, Esq., in the ordinary conditions of life, is in excess ; but if persons are ill fed, then a 
 M.D , LL.B., F.R.s. dimiiiution of weight must be injurious. 
 
 gth March 1863, 9S3. Is that attribulable to their having labour in the open air ? 
 
 "1 es, to increased labour. Labour in the open air is better, as I mentioned 
 
 before, than in less pure air ; but the labour itself is the essential cause of the 
 diminution in weia;ht. 
 
 '»' 
 
 0S4. Lord Presidcvf.] Are the Committee to understand you to state that it 
 depends entirely on the state of the person whether that increase or diminution 
 of weight is a disadvantage or an advantage r 
 
 Quite so. 
 
 985. Is that so with regard to prisoners generally r 
 it is in some cases, but in others it is not. 
 
 986. "Would it not increase a man's weight if he were allowed to drink a large 
 quantity of cold water ? 
 
 No, that diminishes it ; I may say that water taken in the morning without 
 food diminishes the weight of the body twice as much as if it were taken with 
 food, and the reason is that the fluid [lasses out of the body in much larger 
 quantity than was admitted, and carries away with it material which is more or 
 less valuable to the system. 
 
 987. Marquess of Salisbury.'] It is stated in the report on military prisons for 
 1859 and 18G0, at page 12, tliat "The diet generally in use in the miHtary 
 prisons at home has been, throughout the years 1859 and 1860, the reduced 
 scale adopted in August 1850, viz. : — 
 
 Ordinary. After 56 days. 
 
 Breakfast - - 8 oz. of oatmeal - - 10 oz. oatmeal. 
 Dinner - - 9 oz. of Indian meal - 12 oz. of Indian meal. 
 
 Supper - - 8 oz. of bread - 8 oz. of bread. 
 
 with half-a-pint of milk to each meal." Do you think that that dietary is 
 sufticient r 
 
 1 should think it a very good experimental dietary, except that I should say 
 there is more milk given than is necessary. I should think also that Indian meal 
 could scarcely be wisely given in county prisons ; it is one of the classes of food 
 with wliich we are not familiar in this country,and which would therefore not digest 
 well, and as the aim should be in all prison discipline, both in a medical and an 
 economical point of view, to make the food digest, I should have my doubts 
 about the propriety of giving Indian meal simply because it is a httle cheaper 
 than other farinaceous foods. I think that there should be a little more variety 
 than is given in this dietary, because by varying the food you increase the power 
 of assimilation. Even the best kind of food if given constantly would not 
 assimilate after some time, whereas if given with a certain variety it would 
 assimilate. But the principle of giving bread or some analogous matter 
 with the gruel or soup at each meal given hot, is the idea that I should have 
 in the formation of a fundamental dietary. I should state that with regard 
 to the Lancashire operatives, we have had special analyses made, in order to 
 determine the value of meat liquor and bone liquor, and taking a mixture of 
 lean and fat meat together, the liquor from the meat is about one-tifth the value 
 of the meat. Lrom each lib. of meat there would be 490 grains of carbon in 
 the liquor, the meat itself containing, if it be beef, 2,400 grains of carbon. 
 With regard to nitrogen, the liquor from lib. of beef will contain 18 grains of 
 nitrogen; the quantity of nitrogen in lib. of beef itself is 1/5 grains; there- 
 fore, the liquor from lib. of beef is about eijual to one-fifth of the value of the 
 meat in carljon, and about one-ninth of the value of the meat in nitrogen, and 
 is therelore of considerable value. The liquor from bones contains 783 grains 
 of carbon from each 1 lb. of bones, which therefore is equal to about one-fourth 
 the weight of the meat ; and there are 24 grains of nitrogen in 1 lb. of bones, 
 which would be equal to about one- seventh the same weight of meat. Therefore 
 both the meat liquor and the bone liquor are proved manifestly to have very 
 considerable elements of nutrition. 
 
 988. Will you state what sort of bread you would recommend? 
 
 I think
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 95 
 
 I think it essential foi* prison diet that it should be white bread ; or if not E. Sniith, Eso , 
 white bread, it shoiiid have the bran ground finely. My reason for this is, that m-p-. ll.b., f.b.s. 
 I and others have shown that the bran of brown bread, as the husk of oatmeal, , ,, . , ^g^ 
 and the shells of peas, hastens the nutritive material through the bowels. We, ^ _J_^!^__ 
 therefore, have a larger waste of food if we give the bran with the bread, and 
 the husk with the oatmeal, and the shells with the peas, than we should have 
 without them. 
 
 9S9. Then, the general prejudice which prevails amongst the agricultural 
 community, that the finest white bread is the best for tliem, and the most 
 nutritive, is correct ? 
 
 Certainly, it is correct. Brown bread is the rich man's and not the poor 
 man's dietary. 
 
 990. Are you able to state what are the proportion of sick in a pxison : 
 No ; I have no certain knowledge of that. 
 
 991. Are you able to state what the proportion of sickness is in the popu- 
 lation generally .- 
 
 No, we have no returns of that ; we have mortality returns, but not sickness 
 returns. 
 
 99-2. You were asked, with regard to depression of mind, whether it did not 
 tend very largely to the increase of lunacy and suicide in different prisons ; are 
 you aware what pro[)ortion lunatics, and persons of that description, generally 
 bear to the population ? 
 
 No, I am not aware. 
 
 993. Are there returns to that effect? 
 
 I believe there are. , 
 
 y94. Are you able to state the proportion with reference to suicides ? 
 No. 
 
 905. If you will have the goodness to look at the return of judicial statistics 
 for the year 18G1, at page 31, you will observe that 112 were removed from 
 local prisons to lunatic asylums, and six committed suicide ? 
 
 I should think that the proportion of prisoners who are lunatics, and also of 
 those that commit suicide, is very large, in proportion to the total number of 
 prisoners ; the object of the scheme which 1 have been mentioning would be to 
 take away that depression altogether by labour and by exercise, thereby pre- 
 venting the depression and removing the conditions that would lead to lunacy 
 and suicide. 
 
 996. I infer from your general evidence, that you do not think employment 
 in trades in prison a beneficial occupation, as compared with what you stated 
 with regard to hard labour generally ? 
 
 The exertion itself would have the effect upon the system of which I speak, 
 inasmuch as in exertion men respire very much more than under other con- 
 ditions ; and if the air be pure it is manifest that the effect upon the system of 
 pure air would be much better than if the air be less pure, but you scarcely 
 can say that the air in prisons is impure except in a modified sense ; I have no 
 doubt that labour in pure air is very much more valuable than in less pure air, 
 but I do not think that the air is ever .so impure in prisons as to render the 
 labour injurious. 
 
 097. You think that it is more desirable to employ prisoners in the open air 
 than in close confinement ? 
 Yes. 
 
 99S. And, consequently, as trades cannot be carried on in the open air, you do 
 not think that a most advantageous mode of applying labour in prisons ? 
 
 I do not know that there would be any difficulty in so arranging a current of 
 air through the large rooms in which they work, at oakum picking for example, 
 that you woidd not assimilate the conditions of those rooms very much to those 
 of the open air. I think the aim should be to assimilate the conditions of the 
 trades which they carry on in manufactories to the conditions of the open air, 
 which may be done if the rooms are lofty enough, and you have a sufficient 
 current of air through them. I think that that can never be carried out 
 properly in cells in prisons where crank labour is imposed, which is labour that 
 
 (37.3.) M 4 requires
 
 96 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E.Smith, Esq., requires a large aniovint of respiration, and therefore tends to vitiate the air 
 M.D., LL.B. F.R.s. ygj,y iiiuch. At thc Nt'W Bailey, Salford, for example, where the labour is car- 
 
 .1 HT 1 or ried on in sei:)arate cells, I think that there could be no system adopted which 
 oth Marcli 1803. J . '. , , . . , . • it,,-, 
 would remove the impvn-ity produced by respn'ation, which would therefore be 
 
 increased by exertion. I think, therefore, that severe labour should not be 
 
 carried on in separate cells. 
 
 1)90. Lord frodchoiise.] Do you think that cocoa is a valuable article of food 
 for prisoners ? 
 
 Not for prisoners Cocoa must be regarded in two aspects. It contains one 
 half of its weight of fat, and as fat is a necessary element of food, if we regard 
 it as so much of that element of food, it is therefore so far valuable ; but tliat 
 which makes cocoa valued particularly, is the peculiar principle it contains, 
 which is analogous to tea and coffee ; tea, coffee, and cocoa have an analogous 
 action in increasing the assimilation of food by the body. That is the result of 
 my experiments. If therefore cocoa could be afforded, as it tends to increase 
 assimilation, it would be a right food to give to prisoners ; but since it is a 
 luxurv, and vou can supply the stimulation by labour, it appears to me to be a 
 food which should not be given in prisons. 
 
 1000. Chairman.'] The real object which you have in view is to procure what 
 you technically term the assimilation of food, is it not? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1001. And that can be effected by having a supply of fresh air on the one 
 hand, and a certain amount of active exercise on the other ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1002. And consequently those prison employments which admit of active 
 exercise in the open air or fresh air, are in your opinion the best for the 
 prisoners : 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1003. You have been asked whether stone breaking, to which you gave your 
 approval as a form of jn'ison employment, would not interfere with the labour 
 of honest men out of jjrison ; would not the employment of prisoners upon any 
 trade occupation, either at mat making or at weaving, or at any other employ- 
 ment you can name, equall}' interfere with honest trade r 
 
 I should think so. 
 
 1004. Therefore the objection which is urged against stone breaking would 
 equall}- be against all trade occupations, would it not ? 
 
 I should think so. 
 
 100.5- Speaking generally, you contend that you could obtain very nearly an 
 equivalent for meat bv the use of milk ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1006. And the amount of nitrogen contained in milk corresponds pretty 
 nearly with the amount ot nitrogen contained in meat ? 
 
 Each ounce of meat contains 10 grains of nitrogen. In the prisons in 
 London, they give six ounces of cooked meat without bone, which would be 
 equal to about 7 h to 8 ounces of uncooked meat ; therefore in the ration which 
 they give of meat* that would amount to 80 grains of nitrogen. Now a pint of 
 milk contains 4."^ grains of nitrogen ; if, therefore, we supplant the meat by milk, 
 still sui)i)osing the whole quantity of meat to be necessary, we must give them 
 nearly two pints of milk for every ration of meat which they now have. 
 
 101)7. Would you be good enough to give the Committee, in round figures, 
 an estimate of the amount of carbon and of nitrogen which ought to be taken 
 in daily ? 
 
 Perhaps if I gave that which I have given for the Lancashire operatives, 
 it would be the best information that I could give, as that is the only one 
 that I have thought over with sufficient care ; namel}-, 30,100 grains weekly of 
 carbon, and 1,400 grains weekly of nitrogen ; that would be 200 gi'ains of 
 nitrogen daily, and 4, .'500 grains of carbon daily ; and these facts are derived 
 from this method of calculation. From various experiments which I have 
 carried on through the whole period of a day, upon a number of scientific 
 
 gentlemen
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLIiNE. 9/ 
 
 gentlemen chiefly, we found the amount of carbon which is evolved from a body -^ Smiin, E^iji) 
 in a condition of entire rest, then with a certain amount of exertion (always "•"■> ^'""•» *'-^-Si 
 calculated as that of the body in a standini^ posture and walking), and then, gth March 1863^ 
 
 with a certain further amount of exertion, corresjwnding with tiie increased 
 
 quantity caused by those modes of exertion, I take the medium amount of 
 carbon evolved, with a medium amount of exertion, added to the amount of 
 carbon passing off unused by the bowels, to give me the quantity that I require 
 for the Lancashire operatives. 
 
 1008. Assuming these different constituents as the basis of the prison dietary, 
 namely, bread, rice, oatmeal, jjotatoes, or some other vegetable of that sort, 
 milk, and either meat liquor, or of fat which you spoke of before, would these 
 elements, in your opinion, by combination, and by re-combination in different 
 proportions, furnish you with a sufficient diet to maintain the health of any 
 prisoner at the standard point ? 
 
 I should use them for experimental dietaries, and I should, in my experi- 
 ments, assume that they would be sufficient. 
 
 loog. In the military dietary it is provided that the prisoners shall have 10 
 ounces of meat on one day in the week ; is that, in your opinion, a satisfactory 
 arrangement ? 
 
 It appears to me to be the most wasteful and unscientific procedure ima- 
 ginable ; because the amount of food that can be assimilated in a given number 
 of hours cannot be indefinitely increased. 'I'here is no reason to beheve that 10 
 ounces of meat could, if necessary, be digested and assimilated at one time ; 
 and a portion of it being given on this particular' day must be wasted, and, as 
 1 think, a very large portion. And, since you cannot carry on the nutriment 
 that you receive one day to the account of the next day, or only a very small 
 portion of it, whatever you have given in excess to day will not compensate 
 for a deficiency to-morrow. 
 
 1010. 'i'herefore, a large portion of those 10 ounces of meat run absolutely 
 to waste ? 
 
 I have no doubt of it. 
 
 10 11. You stated, did you not, that hot food was, on the whole, a desirable 
 element of prison diet ? 
 I think it is quite essential. 
 
 1012. On what ground ? 
 
 Chiefly on account of its acting as a vital stimulant ; it is a cheap way of 
 supplying stimulus to the body. We find, medically speaking, that in cases 
 of indigestion, and defective assimilation, if you give the food hot, you increase 
 the power of assimilation ; and the same thing, no doubt, occurs in prisons 
 where there is so great a liability to defect of assimilation. 
 
 1013. Therefore, the Committee are to understand, that by the combination 
 of all these more simple elements, by the introduction of a certain amount of 
 labour, where labour does not exist, and by the introduction of hot food, in 
 order to facilitate digestion ; by these combinations, and re-combinations, you 
 may often find an adequate substitute for meat itself? 
 
 That is what I should look for experimentally. 
 
 1014. I think you staled just now that in your opinion the treadwheel was 
 the best punislnnent? 
 
 If you must have a severe punishment, the treadwheel, I have very little 
 doubt, is the best of any at present devised. The shot (h-ill is a particularly 
 good punishment, but it has never been carried on through the whole day in 
 county prisons. But if you want a punishment not so severe as the treadwheel 
 labour, then I think stone breaking is most useful ; but I consider that the 
 treadvvlieel, properly regulated, not employed as it is now, without regulation, 
 and where every governor does as he pleases, but properly regulated, is the 
 best of all severe punishments. 
 
 1015. At the same time you consider that the different treadwheels which 
 are now in use admit of very large mechanical improvement ? 
 
 They simply want regulation. With regard to Canterbury gaol, I may 
 
 mention that, being a small prison, they have not a sufficient number of pri- 
 
 (37. o.) N soners,
 
 98 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 M^ ^Tlb ?k's. ^""^^'^' generally speaking, to occupy the whole wheel ; and as the whole wheel 
 
 ■' — '-^ ' ' ' moves round by the weight of the prisoners, it will move more or less rapidly, 
 
 9th March 1863. according to the weight of the prisoners. When I worked at that wheel with 
 
 - — — . some prisoners, a variation occurred in the rapidity from 32 revolutions per 
 
 minute up to 48 revolutions per minute. In proportion to the number of 
 
 revolutions so is the rate of ascent. If there had been a governor to that wheel 
 
 with a sufficient weight of prisoners to turn the wheel, the ascent might have 
 
 been made absolutely uniform. 
 
 1016. Of course, under such cii'cumstances, the treadwheel produces very 
 different effects upon the human constitution and system generally. 
 
 Very different. 
 
 1017. Do you know, from your own inquiries, and your own study of the 
 subject, wdiether the treadwheel itself is a very different engine in point of con- 
 struction in different gaols ? 
 
 It is the same in construction. 
 
 1 01 8. Are the steps of the same height ? 
 
 As far as 1 know they are of the same height, but, of course, if the steps vary 
 in height whilst the rapidity is uniform, you will still have a difference in the 
 total ascent. 
 
 ] o 1 9. Are you of opinion that it would be very desirable to have a complete 
 uniformity in the action of the treadwheel throughout the country ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1 020. Are you of opinion that that uniformity could easily be secured ? 
 Without the least difficulty. 
 
 1021. Is there any mechanical objection to it ? 
 
 There is not the least difficulty mechanically, I believe. The first question 
 would be to settle the total ascent which should be allowed, because there is a 
 limit to the amount of exertion which the body can make in a given time. On 
 the treadwheel at Coldbath Fields the amount of labour exacted is equal to 
 5 s times that of rest, and the total limit that the human system can bear, as 
 proved by my experiments, is /. Therefore, there is a limit which you must 
 not pass. If the steps now per minute are 54, which is about the average at 
 Coldbath Fields prison, it would be necessary to limit the number to that or 
 some other number ; but having determined the total ascent to be made in a 
 given time, and therefore in a day, you have to regulate the whole of the 
 machinerj' by that. 
 
 1022. When therefore the Act of Parliament takes time as the measure by 
 which the punishment on the treadwheel is to be graduated, you are of opiniou 
 that that is an incorrect gauge to apply ? 
 
 I believe there is another limitation, namely, that the height of the total 
 ascent shall not be more, I think, than a mile and a third. There is a limita- 
 tion with regard to height. 
 
 1023. In reducing it to a practical rule, would you apply a limitation in the 
 shape of ascent ? 
 
 Yes, the total ascent of a day ; but I think that there should be such an. 
 amount of rapidity of revolution each minute as to make it a punishment ; 
 because if you allow the wheel to go round slowly, it becomes a pleasure and 
 not a punishment. There should be a certain limit as to the an)ount of ascent 
 and rapidity of ascent, and there should also be a limit as to the number of 
 minutes of work at one time, followed by a certain interval of rest. 
 
 1024- Are you not aware that the law prescribes that the ascent shall not 
 exceed 12,000 feet, whicli of course is more than a mile and a tliu'd r 
 I had forgotten that. 
 
 1 025. I presume that what you have said with regard to the treadwheel, would 
 apply in some respects to the crank, namely, tliat the pressure on the crank 
 is in many gaols very unequal and very different ? 
 
 Exceedingly different. In the better kinds of cranks, as at Wandsworth 
 (AppokVs patent being used there), the pressure put upon the axis which is to 
 be turned by the handle, is graduated by defined weights. The amount of 
 
 pressure
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 99 
 
 pressure to be put upon it is determined b\' the surgeon, there being, however, -E- Smith, Et 
 
 II.- 
 
 M.D., LL.B., r.R.R. 
 
 a normal quantity, but any reduction is determined by the surgeon. In the old 
 
 form of cranks, as at the New Bailey at Salfbrd, the pressure is regulated simply Q^h March 1863. 
 
 by turning a kind of screw ; the gaoler gives a turn to the screw, and he calls ' 
 
 it what he pleases; 7 lbs. or 10 lbs. as the case may be, but the etiect is 
 extremely different ; the effect of the nominal 7 lbs. crank at the New Bailey at 
 Salford, in comparison with the effect of the Wandsworth crank of 7 lbs., is as 
 16 to 1 ; andthecflFect of the so called 9 lbs. crank at the New Bailey, as com- 
 pared to the 12 lbs. crank at Wandsworth, is as 1 3 to 1. 'Iherefore there is 
 very great difference with regard to the effect of the nominal value, and since 
 the nominal value is determined by the simple turn of a screw, whicli can 
 never be graduated nicely, it is quite clear that the pressure at the New Bailey 
 must vary with each prisoner every day. 
 
 1026. Does Appold's patent admit of variation by any warder that may be 
 passing ? 
 
 No, only by taking off or adding weights. 
 
 1027. Therefore practically it is at the discretion of the governor, and of the 
 governor alone ? 
 
 Of the governor and the surgeon. I think that no cranks should be allowed 
 which have not a uniform system with regard to the graduation of weight. At 
 present I am not quite clear that the mode of determining the exact pressure . 
 is the correct mode of determining it. A weight is put at the end of the handle, 
 and whatever will draw the handle down to the horizontal position, is supposed 
 to measure the pressure put upon the crank ; but it does not in the least follow 
 that that will accurately determine the amount of pressure. The amount of 
 pressure of the crank will depend very much upon the decree of lubrication of its 
 axis. In turning round the axis, if it be dry or well lubricated, the ease or 
 difinculty will be very different indeed. If this axis be quite clylindi-ical in form, 
 and if, on the other hand, it be out of repair, so that it moves with a jerky motion, 
 the effect will be very different. The crank should be constructed with a 
 certain pressure, produced only by weights, and then it should be kept always 
 in one condition with regard to its action. 
 
 1028. You would, of course, give the surgeon and the governor, either con- 
 jointly or separately, the power of moving those weights, and graduating the 
 pressure to the strength of the individual prisoner ? 
 
 1 think the basis or standard pressure should be that which a moderately con- 
 structed man can prettv well perform ; then, if the prisoner be out of health, the 
 surgeon should have the power of diminishing it ; but I would not have the 
 basis so high that he should find it necessary to graduate it according to the 
 strength of his prisoner, setting apart the question of health. 
 
 102.). You think that the governor and the surgeon should have the power 
 of diminishing the number of revolutions which the government should requii'e 
 in a day rather than that the pressure itself should be reduced ? 
 
 Either the one or the other. I do not think it matters whether it is the 
 pressure or the number of revolutions, but the standard quantityof labour to be 
 performed by the prisoner should be set at that which a man of moderate 
 strength can peiform ; and any diminution below that should be on account of 
 his health, and not on account of his strength ; if he becomes out of health he 
 should have a diminution ; but if it be a mere question of one man being 
 stronger than another, do not let tlie standard be so high that a man of moderate 
 strength cannot perform the task. It would be better that the total number of 
 revolutions to be made daily should be uniform, and that the pressure should 
 vary under the direction of the surgeon. 
 
 1030. Practically, you see no difficulty in securing uniformity, both at the 
 treadwheel and the crank f 
 
 I believe that there is no difficulty in that respect. 
 
 loji. Earl of Kovuici/.] You stated, did you not, that the human constitution 
 diminished in strength in the sunmier ? 
 Yes, it is less powerful in the summer. 
 
 1032. Do you know, with regard to the treadwheel, that the quantity of 
 labour is reduced in the summer as compared with the winter ? 
 
 (37. 3 ) N 2 It
 
 100 MINUTES OF EVIDENTCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Smith, Esq., It is in some gaols ; in the New Bail}' at Salford it is reduced from 56 in 
 M.D. LL.B., F.K.S., ^j-jg ^vinter to 52 in the summer ; but that is not uniform ; there is no system 
 eth M^i863. ^^ the gaols in general. 
 
 ' 1033. You know it is done ? 
 
 Ye:,. 
 
 1034. And therefore it could be done universally ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1035. Duke 0? .Marlborough.'] You consider tlr.it the treadwheel is the best 
 system of hard labour ? 
 
 Yes ; that and stone-breaking I should consider the two best. 
 
 1036. What description of exercise do you recommend ? 
 
 I think the ordinary swift running and walking exercise, which is now 
 adopted in gaols, is the best that can be devised as an exercise. 
 
 1037. Walkinir around the prison yard ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1038. Do you consider that that is sufficient in its character r 
 
 The character of it is sufficient ; it is a question of quantity, how much might 
 he necessary ; but if there be a day's labour exacted, a prisoner would not 
 require much more exercise than his day's labour. 
 
 1039. Do you consider that the treadwheel should be as much as possible 
 exposed to the open air r 
 
 I think it should be under shelter, inasmuch as the temperature of the skin 
 is mucli increased during- the action of the treadwheel. When the work of 
 the treadwheel is over, the ])risoner sits quietly for a quarter of an hour, and 
 if a draught of cold air fall upon him, he is, of course, apt to take 
 cold ; it therefore should be under shelter, at the same time that it is in the 
 open air. 
 
 1040. Marquess of Sf//M/w;7/.] You have attended a good deal to Coldbath 
 Fields Prison ; did I not understand you to say that the rooms in which the 
 trades are carried on should be as well ventilated as the open air ? 
 
 Yes, if possible. 
 
 1 04 1 . Is that tlie case at Coldbath Fields Prison ? 
 
 At Coldbath Fields Prison they have not manufactures ; there the system 
 is carried on by treadwheel labour and oakum picking. 
 
 1042. Is it not the case on the female side of the prison ? 
 I had an impression that there were no females there. 
 
 1043. It has been stated that Coldbath Fiekls Prison was in a state of great 
 want of ventilation, in consequence of there not being sufficient cells ; did you 
 find that to be the case when you were there, in the daily rooms where you 
 were ? 
 
 I found no deficiency in any room that I went into ; but as the work is not 
 performed in the different cells, there would be no reason why there should be 
 any vitiation of the air to any great extent. Where oakum picking is carried 
 on", I dare say there is a deficiency of air, because -100 persons are put into 
 a small space, and sit very closely together, and you can never, therefore, have 
 sufficient ventilation to carry away the products of respiration. With regard 
 to Wakefield, that is a gaol in wliich the system of manuf icture is exclusively 
 adopted, ail other kinds of punishment being discontinued. There the diffi- 
 culty exists of ke(^ping up a sufficient ventilation, both in the cells and ni 
 the larger rooms. 'I'he work is done tliere chiefly or entirely in the cells, and 
 I have the testimony of the surgeon for saying that the ventilation is necessarily 
 defective. 
 
 1044. ^Vhat do you consider the most advantageous temperature for a cell ? 
 The temperature should never exceed GO ; the limits should be about 48 
 
 and 58. 
 
 1045. Is that the case in Wakefi(>ld prison ? 
 
 Yesj I think it is. Tliere is a variation throughout the year ; but I think it 
 
 is never Ijelow, or never above those liaiits. 
 
 104O. Are
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 101 
 
 1 046. Are those cells warmed ? 
 They are not artiticially warmed. 
 
 1047. Do you I'ccommend the use of water closets in cells ? 
 
 I should not if it could be avoided ; it is quite contrary to health ; it is a 
 system which ought not to be adopted. 
 
 1048. Do you recommend the usual system of )3ails put out in the morning? 
 That is better, I have no doubt, than the other, or some system should be 
 
 adopted by which the water closet should be separated from the cells. 
 
 1049. Do you find any bad effects from water closets in cells r 
 I should think that it would be injurious. 
 
 1050. Lord IVodehouse.'] Do you think that the use of water closets could be 
 Supplied by pails and other utensils used in cells, and afterwards emptied, or 
 are you contemplating a separate water closet system altogether ? 
 
 The best system is that of the water closets being placed quite separate from 
 the cells, as in Coldbath Fields Prison ; but if you are to have the separate 
 system followed out entirely, you must have some'system of leaving them in the 
 ■cells, which must be injurious. 
 
 1 0.5 1 . Which would you prefer with the separate system r 
 If you must maintain the separate system, the water closet system is much 
 better than having pails. 
 
 1052. Chairnum.] Are you aware that in almost all gaols it is the practice, 
 for the surgeon to allow extra diet to prisoners without actually putting them 
 upon the sick list ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 E. Smith, Esq., 
 
 M.D., LL.B., F.R.S. 
 
 gtli March 1863. 
 
 1053. Is that in your opinion a practice which is indispensable to the presen 
 system of prison discipline ? 
 
 I think there must be power given to the surgeon to increase every dietary if 
 lie should find the state of the prisoner's health diminishing ; but at present 
 there is no very general system whereby the state of health is estimated; it is 
 rather a matter of opinion on the part of tlie surgeon than any definite state- 
 ment that he can make as to weight and colour and firmness of muscles, and 
 so on. 
 
 1054. Is it not probable that one sui'geon might form one estimate of his 
 ■duty with respect to the health of a prisoner, and another another ? 
 
 Yes, under the present system it is. 
 
 1055. Is it not probable that one surgeon may consider it his duty to dis- 
 charge a ])risoner from gaol in a condition of perfect bodily health, and another 
 would consider it merely necessary to let him go out in the same average state 
 of health in which he entered ? 
 
 No doubt there would be that variation of opinion. 
 
 1056. Would not that very largely determine the issue of extra diet ? 
 No doubt it would. 
 
 1057. Are you aware whether there is a very large discrepancy in the amount 
 of extra diet issued in different prisons ? 
 
 I believe there is great discrepancy. 
 
 10.58, Your general experience of the prison system in England would lead 
 you to this conclusion, that there is a very large discrepancy in the amount of 
 diet and in the nature of that diet, in the amount of punishment and in the 
 nature of that punishment, and in the extra diets as they are issued by different 
 surgeons ? 
 
 Yes. I know of no gaol in which the system of determining the amount of 
 health of the prisoner is good, except in' Wakefield prison. On the convict 
 side of that prison Mr. Milner, who is a man of great intelligence, has adopted a 
 very definite system of registering the degree of health. The weight is taken as 
 one indication, both at the commencement of the imprisonment, and whi'n it has 
 become tolerably stationary. Then the colour of the gums and Hps, as indicat- 
 ing the colour of the blood, is observed, and the degree of firmness of the 
 muscles ; I think he has five elements which he writes down, with certain num- 
 
 (37- ^O N 3 bers
 
 102 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Smith, Esq., bers to them, to indicate a larger or a smaller quantity of health. If that system 
 
 M.D., T.L.B., F.R.s. were adopted throughout the country, 1 think we should have much moie uni- 
 
 , ' ~ or formity than we have under the present system. 
 gth Maich 1863. ■' ^ 
 
 ~ 1050. Earl of Miilmcs/mri/.'] Suj)posing a system which, as far as we can 
 
 ascertain, is superior to the present, and, as far as we can ascertain, is as perfect 
 as possible to be discovered by scientific persons, like yourself, do not you think 
 it would be very advantageous that the Seci-etary of State should have power 
 to enforce that system universally and upon the same footing ? 
 
 Yes, certainly : I think it is a fundamental question that the matter should 
 be regulated absolutely and enforced by one common authority. 
 
 1060. Earl Cathcarl.'] If you have one particular scale of diet, must it not be 
 the same for a giant as for a dwarf, that is to say, one man might be starved 
 while another man might be fattened by the same diet ? 
 
 But you would not have so great an extreme as is indicated by vour Lordship's 
 question ; the dietary must be made so as to allow a little licence in either 
 direction. 
 
 io6i. I mean that under the present system it very often happens that one 
 man comparatively feasts while another man may starve ? 
 
 Perhaps it may be so ; I should take the average at about 1,50 pounds, which 
 is the average weight of the men of our working classes, and I should apportion 
 the dietary to that. 
 
 106-2. Dors not diarrhoea prevail in griols very much ? 
 
 Yes, especially at certain seasons of the year ; and it occurs at a time of year 
 when a deficiency of assimilation exists, that is to say, in the hot season, when 
 the food is not properly assimilated, and therefore diarrhoea may be an advan- 
 tageous condition, rather than one of disease. 
 
 1063. Do you think that it is generally considered by gaol surgeons that the 
 prevalence of diarrhoea is a healthy sign } 
 
 It depends very much upon the talent and intelligence of the surgeon. Some 
 surgeons who act by routine would stop it ; others would inquire what was 
 the cause of the dian-hcea, and whether it was not a beneficial state of the 
 system. 
 
 1 064. Might not diarrhoea, if prolonged, very soon carry a man off alto- 
 gether ? 
 
 Yes ; but that is a condition of disease. 
 
 1065. Do you believe that potatoes at a certain time of the year produce 
 
 diarrhffia ? 
 
 A man may have deficiency of food with a deficiency of starch in the potatoes, 
 which would produce a deficiency of vital power, but the condition of the potato 
 itself would not be the cause it. 
 
 1 (^fit). You stated, did you not, that as the diet in various prisons was very 
 different, the diet must depend upon the experience and experiments of the 
 surgeons to the gaols ? 
 
 That is not the idea that I li;id in view in establishing a diet ; it should be 
 established upon purely scientific grounds, such as would be satisfactory to any 
 scientific man, and having ascertained those grounds, and the dietary being 
 adoi)ted, the surgeon should have the power to increase it if he finds the health 
 of a prisoner failing, but he shouhl have to do with exceptions only. 
 
 10G7. C//a?'/mfi'n.]' Looking, however, to the inequalities which exist among 
 all men, the inequalities of age and of stature, and of i)hysical strength, any 
 system which you devise must be more or less a broad, and a general one, and 
 must be fitted to ai)ply to tlu; average of men rather than to an exceptional 
 deviation on the side of strength, or on the side of weakness, must it not? 
 
 Certainly ; but the limits of the (>\tremes are small, and therefore there would 
 be no difficulty in that question if there be a surgeon, or some proper authority, 
 to vary it with regard to individual persons. 
 
 lofiS. You stated, in answer to a question put by the noble Duke some time 
 ago, that there were still several points which are undetermined^ and which it 
 
 would
 
 SELECT COMJIITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 103 
 
 would be necessary, before any exact diet could be laid down, to settle scienti- 
 fically. 
 
 Yes, quite so. 
 
 1069. You suggested also that tbe best mode of ascertaining those points 
 would be by means of a commission ? 
 
 A prison official, if he were a competent person, would be the best, because he 
 would have his whole time to devote to the question, and it would seem to me 
 to be essential that whoever carries it out, should be able to devote the whole of 
 his time and thought to the subject for the time. 
 
 1070. Can you state what vould be the time that such commission would 
 be required, supposing it to be issued for the solution of those undecided 
 points ? 
 
 Not less than 12 months ; to what extent more, would depend upon the cor- 
 rectness, as they would consider it, of the results that were obtained, for we 
 find in all experimental work that a great deal has to be thrown away. 
 
 1071. Are the Committee to understand that the scale of dietary now laid 
 down in military prisons would on the whole be applicable as a provisional and 
 temporary dietaiy, until the large questions on which the main question hangs 
 are scientifically decided ? 
 
 I could only mention that as an experimental dietary for the cases of 
 prisoners not condemned to hard labour. I think that in that sense it would 
 be very valuable. 
 
 1072. Are you not aware that the majority of sentences now involve hard 
 labour ? 
 
 I do not know that positively, but T dare say it is so. Under the plan which 
 I have mentioned, in which labour would be enforced under every sentence, the 
 frequency of the hard labour sentences might probably be lessened. 
 
 1073. C-ould you furnish the Committee with a provisional statement of the 
 dietary which might be laid down in the case of ordinary hard labour in 
 prisons ? 
 
 I could do so, but I doubt whether it would be satisfactory. I could give my 
 grounds for doing it, but till those other questions are settled it would rest as a 
 mere matter of opinion. Until those matters obtain a final settlement we 
 could never settle any dietary, it would rest upon opinion, which would change, 
 and would not be satisfactory. 
 
 1074. At the same time a settlement might be deferred for one, two, or even 
 three years ? 
 
 For one or two years. One year, I should think, would be sufficient ; but 
 the subject is one of the greatest possible importance. 
 
 1075. Are you not of opinion that the dietary, as laid down in military 
 prisons, with that one single exception to which you alluded, of 10 ounces of 
 meat on one day in the week, is, for a provisional dietary, far better than the 
 average of the dietaries now in use in prisons ? 
 
 Yes. It would do away with dietaries that are manifestly insufficient, for I 
 think it a sufficient dietary ; but whether it would be sufficient for all con- 
 ditions of prison discipline I could not venture to give an opinion upon. 
 
 1076. Earl Cat/icart.] You are aware that military prisoners are men in the 
 prime of life ? 
 
 I suppose so. 
 
 1077. And, therefore, the dietary that would suit them might not suit persons 
 from the purlieus of a town ? 
 
 Those are questions of opinion, and, as opinion, it would, of course, require 
 to be settled by experimental proof. I think the evil connected with the late 
 alterat'on of dietary was that it was based upon opinion and upon authority, 
 and not upon absolutely proved data. 
 
 1 07S. C/uiirman.] Are there any immediate changes which you would suggest 
 in the dietary, with the view of putting it upon rather a better footing than it 
 stands upon now ? 
 
 I think the great question is to have no dietary of less value than our miUtary 
 dietary. If the lower scale of Government dietary were taken away, and tliey 
 
 (37. 3.) N 4 had 
 
 JE. Smith, Esq.f 
 
 SI.D. LL.E., F.R.S. 
 
 9th March 1863.
 
 104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 £. Smii/i, Esij., had equivalent scales in all the county prisons, that would be a great gain ; 
 
 M.D., LL.B., F.K.s. for at the present time the low scale must be very injurious to the health of the 
 
 ^ ^ ^ prisoners. With regard to the excess, that is chiefly a question of econonw, but 
 
 ^ 1_^^L I think it probable that the highest class in the Government dietary might be 
 
 also dispensed with. 
 
 1079. Ai'^ you acquainted with any workhouse dietaries? 
 
 Not very much ; I have not worked at them, and do not know them suffi- 
 ciently to give any evidence upon them unless they were put before me. 
 
 1080. Lord WodchoHse.^ Do you not think that for such short periods as 
 seven days' imprisonment a very low dietaiy ma}' be enforced without injury to 
 health r 
 
 That is a matter of opinion ; I do not think the public would be justified in 
 diminishing the health of a prisoner, and I do not think they would want to 
 increase it very much ; he should lie allowed to go away in the condition that 
 he came in: but to do that which you know must every day diminish his health 
 is a moral question which, I think, is of great importance to consider. 
 
 1081. Are you aware of any cases where, from the lowness of the prison 
 dietary, the health of a prisoner confined for a short time has been injured ': 
 
 Mr. Milner, of Wakefield prison, has informed me of eases of persons who 
 have come back to him in the course of 12 months again and again, and he has 
 been able to trace consumption to their low dietary. 
 
 1082. Chairman.] Were the Committee to understand from an answer wliich 
 you gave to a nol^le Loixl, that you could take the Secretary of State's dietary 
 as it stands at present, and place in parallel columns the alterations which you 
 l)ropose to make ? 
 
 No, 1 did not say so ; I could take the Government dietaiy, say, or the other 
 dietaries in the return, and put in parallel columns the amount of carbon and 
 nitrogen which they contain, which would show to the Committee the immense 
 diversity existing, but I could not take upon myself to advise upon a scale of 
 dietary as a permanent thing ; we have not sufficient knowledge upon that 
 point at present. 
 
 1083. Would you have the goodness to put such a return in? 
 Yes, I will furnish it to the Committee. 
 
 1084. Duke of Marl/wrough.] Would the scale of dietary, which in any 
 case you will be prepared to recommend, differ very materially froai what you 
 have recommended for the Lancashire operatives ? 
 
 I tiiink not ; the experimental dietary would be probably a little lower than 
 that. Then with regard to the amount which would be required to meet the 
 waste from hard labour, it must of course be much more than that, but to 
 what extent I could not say. 
 
 108.5. Chairman.] Would there not he this difference between a dietary 
 constructed for the use of prisoners, and the dietary constructed for the 
 Lancashire operatives, that in the cases of prisoners, there would not be the 
 same necessity for consultiui,^ the palate l)v introducing a great variety of 
 food ? 
 
 No, but I would not have a variety with the idea of coasidting the 
 palate. I would merely have such a variety as would eualde the food to 
 digest. 
 
 1080. That variety would lie within verv tuirrow limits, would it not ? 
 
 Yes ; it might not be of a kind to affect the i)alare at all. For example, 
 with regard to soup, nothing would be more injudicious than to give soup 
 of the same kind every dav without meat. H on one day pea soup were given, 
 and on another day soup of a different flavour, and yet of the same nutritive 
 value, the soup would digest. 
 
 1087. Duke of Marlliordvtjh.] Is the ha- is on which von have drawn the diet 
 for the Lancashire (operatives sim])ly that which would be sufficient to retain 
 soul and body together with the pmpir amount of health? 
 
 Yes, but rather more than the idea that those terms would imply ; I think 
 persons would be able to live and maintain their health vveU upon that diet. 
 
 iu88. Earl
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 105 
 
 1088. Earl Cathcart.'] In drawing a comparison between the dietary of a E. Smith, Esq.. 
 Lancashire operative and a prisonei', do you bear in mind the fact, that the «•»., ll.b., f.k s. 
 Lancashire operative is at large, and may beg or buy, or in some other way ^^^ j^j^^^,^ ^g^^ 
 
 may get bread, or other food, easily, whereas the prisoner can get no other food - ' 
 
 than that which is supplied him ? 
 
 Yes ; but if the dietary give sufficient food on the one hand, and on the other, 
 with regard to the Lancashire operatives, it is recollected that they have not 
 much oppoi-tunity of getting food, except in a certain definite form now, I think 
 that that objection will not have much weight. 
 
 1089. Chairman.'] You suggested, did you not, that liquor from bones should 
 be used very often in preference to the liquor from meat ? 
 
 In framing a fundamental dietary, I think that at two meals in the day, 
 dinner, and perhaps supper, there should be either meat liquor or bone liquor 
 added to the material, the soup or gruel, as it is called, and in that way you 
 could give more fat tlian is contained in milk, and at much less cost. 
 
 1 090. What is the proportion of bone to meat ? 
 
 It varies according to the part of the animal ; in the forequarter of beef, 
 except in the shins and legs, the proportion is about 10 per cent. ; in shins and 
 legs, the proportion is 30 to 50 per cent. 
 
 1091. Marquess of Salisbury.] A great deal of that is now reduced to gela- 
 tine, is it not ? 
 
 Yes, I suppose it is ; still I think they make gelatine, latterly, of hoofs, and 
 the clippings of skins, rather than of bones. 
 
 1092. Cha^rman.^ Are there any other facts which you would desire to put 
 in evidence ? 
 
 Upon the question of the inequalities of prison discipline, when the matter 
 was under my special observation in 1858, I wrote to upwards of 60 governors 
 of gaols, to beg of them to give me their rota or system of punishment, 
 having reference to the inequalities of punishment, and I received from them 
 60 replies, and the result is this : that it is not merely in different gaols that 
 there are different instruments of punishment, but in the same gaol the kind 
 of punishment is varied from day to day, and at diiferent parts of the da}-, 
 and that the different kinds of punishment have a totally different effect upon 
 the body, and without any uniform action whatever. 1 think those letters, or 
 an analysis of them, would form a very valuable document. 
 
 1093. AVill you liave the kindness to put those letters in ? 
 Yes, I will do so. 
 
 1094. Are they tabulated ? 
 
 They are not tabulated at present, but I could do that at some future time. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, 1 o'clock. , 
 
 (37. 3.)
 
 [ 107 ] 
 
 Die Jovis, 12° Martii 1868. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT: 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Duke of Maklbohough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY. 
 Lord WoDEHOUSE. 
 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair. 
 
 Evidence on 
 
 Prison Discipline, 
 
 MAJOR GENERAL SIR JOSHUA JEBB, k.c.b., is called in, and examined -, "7" , 
 
 c ^^ Major-Ceneral 
 
 as follows : sir Joshua Jehb, 
 
 K.C.B. 
 
 1095. Chairman.] WILL you be good enough to state to the Committee • 
 
 what office you hold ? 12t h March 186 3. 
 
 In connexion with county and borough prisons, I hold the office of Surveyor 
 General of Prisons, the duties of which include all questions connected with 
 the construction of prisons. 
 
 1 096. Since when have you held that office ? 
 
 I have held the office of Surveyor General during the last 18 years, but have 
 been engaged in various duties under the Secretary of State for the Home 
 Department for the last 25 years. 
 
 1097. I think a great number of prisons have been built under your 
 direction ? 
 
 Yes, a large number of convict prisons, and all plans of county prisons have 
 been referred to me before being sanctioned by the Secretary of State. 
 
 1098. Could you state to the Committee briefly, what those have been ? 
 
 I should think that there must be between 1,200 and 1,400 cells erected now 
 on the plan of Pentonville, in different parts of the country. 
 
 1099. That is to say, upon the separate system ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1 1 00. You are aware, generally, are you not, of the condition of the gaols at 
 this moment in England r 
 
 Yes ; there is a great approximation to uniformity now which did not 
 exist formerly. Perhaps I may be permitted to mention that the question of 
 separate confinement having been forcibly brought before the Government in 
 1837 by Messrs. Crauford and Russell, the Inspectors of Prisons, it was deter- 
 mined in 1840, to build a model prison at Pentonville. It was first occupied 
 in the year 1842, and a very influential board of commissioners were appointed 
 for working- out the experiment of separate confinement which was to be carried 
 out in tliat prison ; among whom were the late Lord Wharncliffe, the late Duke 
 of Richmond, Lord Chichester, Lord John Russell, the present Lord Eversley, 
 and others, and I was one of the members. 
 
 1101. Could you state very briefly to the Committee what the principles of 
 construction are ujxju which you have proceeded in all those prisons which 
 have been built under your direction, or by your advice? 
 
 (37. 4.) 2 They
 
 108 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 3Iajor- General 
 
 Hir Joshua Jebb, 
 
 K.c. B, 
 
 12th March 1863. 
 
 They are precisely those of Pentonville Prison, the general principle is an 
 open corridor, having the cells ranged upon galleries, by which means the 
 mosf perfect inspection of the interior of the prison is secured, and all the other 
 requisites ai'e provided for in construction for the inforcement of the discipline. 
 Under the 2d & 3d Victoria, chapter 56, which is the only Act which authorises 
 separate confinement being carried out for unlimited periods, it is provided that 
 the cells shall be such a size and lighted and warmed, and ventilated in such a 
 manner as shall be required by a due regard to health ; and that those 
 particulars shall be certified to the Secretary of State l)efore the cells can be 
 legally occupied. 
 
 1 102. Admitting, of course, that there are differences of principle in the ma- 
 nagement of Pentonville and the management of a county prison, are you still 
 of opinion that the pattern upon which Pentonville prison is constructed is the 
 proper pattern to adopt in county gaols generally .' 
 
 Yes ; I think the principle of construction cannot be improved ; but some 
 years ago I suggested that the cells at Pentonville which were designed for very 
 long periods, and were 13 feet long by seven feet broad, and fitted up with water- 
 closets and other conveniences, were not necessary for the shorter periods which 
 were passed in county gaols ; and though there was some opposition to it, I 
 induced the Secretary of State to authorise plans upon my recommendation 
 being constructed with cells, I think, nine feet long by six feet wide. That was 
 with a view to diminish the expense to the counties ; but my general recom- 
 mendation was, that there should be a certain number of larger cells in each 
 county prison for carrying out long sentences, and that the average period of 
 confinement should be looked to in determining the relative proportion of the 
 larger and smaller cells, perhaps three-fourths of the smaller cells to one-fourth 
 of the larger cells would be sufficient. 
 
 1103. But, with regard to any class of prisoners whether for long sentences 
 or for short sentences, you would not depart from the separate system as such ? 
 
 No ; the separate system I consider essential as the basis of discipline. 
 
 1 1 04. That is to say, that each prisoner should have one separate cell in which 
 he should be confined both by day and by night except at such hours when he 
 goes out for prison punishment or prison exercise ? 
 
 Yes ; but the administration of discipline would require perhaps to be some- 
 what changed, so as to allow of sufficient separation by night and dui'ing other 
 periods, and still have the means of taking the prisoners out of their cells for 
 labour ; because if strict separation in a cell is carried out, the means of en- 
 forcing hard labour is much restricted, and you have no means of carrying out 
 the sentence excepting by a crank. 
 
 1 105. With regard to one detail to which you jiist now alluded, and on which 
 other witnesses have previously spoken, do you believe that water-closets are 
 necessary in the cells ? 
 
 No ; but that depends again upon the administration of discipline. In prisons 
 where we have not the means of carryinii' out a strict separation by day 
 and night, as in the associated prisons for public labour, and in military prisons, 
 op])ortunity is afforded to the men to go to the water-closets when at exercise 
 in the yards, but that involves more or less of regulated association. 
 
 1106. Have you ever contemplated any scheme by which you could dispense 
 with the use of water closets in separate cells ? 
 
 There is no doubt that a water-closet is the greatest convenience you can 
 have of the kind, but it is rather an expensive one. 
 
 1107. Is it not sometimes prejudicial to health? 
 
 I tliink not ; if the water-closet is properly constructed, and the cell is pro- 
 perly ventilated, no inconvenience is experienced ; we have now had the ex- 
 perience of 20 years at Pentonville without the slightest inconvenience having 
 been experienced in that respect. 
 
 1108. Have you not been aware sometimes of any disagreeable and almost 
 prejudicial smells which have arisen from that cause ? 
 
 No ; that must arise from a faultiness in the construction of the water-closet, 
 or the ventilation of the cell. 
 
 1 1 09. Do
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 109 
 
 1 109. Do you approve of the system of ventilation by means of windows ■ Major-Gencral 
 
 No, I think that you may secure sufficient ventilation without them ; it is Sir Joshua Jebb, 
 
 always well to provide a direct communication with the exterior, but not kc.e. 
 
 through the window ; I tliink it is better to have a flue whicth is worked in the intj, siarch i8Gt 
 
 outer wall, and which will admit of a prisoner opening or shutting the ven- ._ 
 
 tilator. 
 
 i!io. Do you see any objection as regards the discipline of the prison in 
 allowing the prisoner himself to open and to close the windows ? 
 
 No. excepting that if you make use of the window, the prisoners might com- 
 municate from cell to cell by means of the open window, and that leads me to 
 prefer a flue in the outer wall. 
 
 nil. Would not that communication be a serious inconvenience ? 
 Yes, it would. 
 
 1112. And therefore you would come to the opinion that it would be desir- 
 able not to give the prisoners the facility of opening those windows ? 
 
 Certaini)' not ; but I think there is an advantage in haiing a communication 
 with the outer air, and I should always recommend a flue in the external wall, 
 as well as an opening into the corridor ; these ai-rangements will be seen in my 
 reports for 1844 and 1847. 
 
 1113. Are you of opinion that looking to economy, a gaol built upon the 
 pattern of Pentonville, or upon the separate system, is on the whole the cheapest 
 form of construction that could be adopted ? 
 
 I think it is quite as cheap as any that ever preceded it, in fact it is cheaper. 
 
 1114. Are there any gaols at this moment in England where the solitary 
 system is enforced as distinguished from the separate system ? 
 
 No, solitary confinement cannot be legally enforced for more than 28 days at a 
 time, nor for more than three periods of 28 days in 12 months. 
 
 1115. There are still considerable discrepancies, are there not, both in the 
 construction and in the discipline of dift'erent prisons in England ? 
 
 I have stated that there is a great approximation to uniformity in the con- 
 struction of prisons, but theie is undoubtedly a great diversity of discipline in 
 the administration, and it is a great evil. 
 
 1116. Could you state briefly to the Committee what, in your opinion, are 
 the different divisions into which those discrepancies would fall ? 
 
 There are onl}^ three kinds of discipline that have ever been fairly brought 
 before the public. One is based upon classification of the prisoners ; another 
 is called the silent system, where classification is not so necessary ; and the other 
 is the sti'ict separation of prisoners. All these questions have been fully considered 
 by Committees ; there was especially a strong Committee of the House of 
 Commons in 1850, which gave a great deal of attention to the subject of prison 
 discipline, and their resolutions bear strongly upon this point. If the Commit- 
 tee will allow me I will just refer to the resolution of the Committee (of which Sir 
 George Grey, Secretary of State for the Home Department, was chairman). After 
 a laborious investigation of the whole subject, the Committee came to the follow- 
 ing resolutions : — " That many prisons have been rebuilt or materially altered 
 since 1835, by which uniformity of construction has been extensively promoted, 
 and that the internal discipline of prisons has been materially improved, but that 
 great variety of construction and discipline still exists. That this Committee 
 ■concurs in the opinion expressed by former Committees of both Houses of 
 Parliament, that such variety is a great evil ; and considers it desirable that the 
 Legislature should intrust increased powers to some central authority, of 
 enforcing uniform adherence to rules laid down from time to time by Parliament 
 in these respects." Then they go on, with respect to individual separation, to 
 say, "That individual separation of prisoners, termed 'the separate system' of 
 imprisonment, contemplated in the 2 & 3 Victoria, chapter 56, has been 
 adopted in Pentonville prison, and in many county and borough prisons. That 
 this Committee has received mucli evidence both as to the mode of applying 
 this system, and as to its results. That this Committee regrets to have found 
 a want of uniformity in some important particulars in tlie mode of applying this 
 system in diflerent pri-ons, which they think ought to be remedied." " That 
 individual separation ought to be applied to all prisoners before trial, as it is 
 essential in an especial degree that such prisoners should be secured from all 
 
 (37. 4.) O 3 intercourse
 
 110 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mujor-Gencral j,-,tgj.course With other prisoners." " That it ought also to be applied to all 
 Sir Joshua Jeob, . , , ' i • ^i i- ' • j r ^i • • • . 
 
 K.c.B. prisoners under long sentences during the earner period oi their imprisonment, 
 
 but this Committee does not recommend that it should in ordinary cases be 
 
 12th March 1863. enforced for a longer period than 12 months. That hard labour is not incom- 
 patible with individual separation, and that where they have been tried in com- 
 bination, as in the county prison at Leicester, the effect has been remarkable in 
 the decrease of the number of committals^ especially under the Vagrant and 
 Malicious 'J'respass Acts." Now, with all our means, as I have stated, for esta- 
 blisliing a uniform system of discipline in the ordinary prisons of this country, 
 and it is to this point that I would desire particularly to direct attention, it is to 
 be lamented that there is yet so great a diversity in practice. To establish the 
 principle of separate confinement as a basis of discipline is well deserving the 
 serious attention of all who are interested in the administration of the law or 
 the welfare of societv and the criminal ; the real question is, the kind of labour 
 or employment. 
 
 1117. You wish the Committee to understand that although there has been 
 a considerable extension in the direction of an increase of uniformity as regards 
 the construction of pri-ons since the year when those resolutions were put 
 upon paper by the Committee of the House of Commons, there still is a very 
 large diversity whicli, in your opinion, it would be desirable to reduce as 
 speedily as possible? 
 
 1 do nut think that the resolutions of this Committee have ever been acted 
 upon to any great extent ; they may have been to a certain extent, but there 
 certainly still prevails a great diversity of practice in different prisons. 
 
 1118. Is it not your opinion that uniformity in construction as in discipline 
 is one of the first essentials ? 
 
 I think it is most imjiortant. We have now got absolute uniformity in all 
 the convict prisons, males and females ; and there exists entire uniformity in 
 all the militarv prisons. And I do not see that there is the least difficidty in 
 having the same degree of uniformity in the county and borough prisons, so 
 that men receiving sentences from two different courts should be quite certain 
 to be subjected to the same discipline and under the same amount of punish- 
 ment. It seems unworthy of a great country to have such a diversity of practice. 
 
 1119. In 1850 you gave evidence before the Committee, to which allusion 
 has been made. Are this Committee to understand that your opinion with 
 regard to the separate system, as there expressed, still holds good ? 
 
 Yes, quite so. 
 
 1 1 20. Have you seen no reason to vary that opinion ? 
 
 Not at all. We have had the separate system now in operation for upwards 
 of 20 years, without any variation as to its principle of discipline or the results 
 either. We have had cause to deplore the period being shortened. In the 
 case of convicts who have come afterwards into association in public works, it 
 has been reduced to nine months, and that is rather too short a period for the 
 amendment of a criminal and his correction. 
 
 1121. What in your opinion are the main objects which may be carried 
 out by the separate" system as applied to county and borough gaols r 
 
 I think that the separate system is the best corrective, as well as the most 
 likely to conduce to tlie reformation of a prisoner. 
 
 ii'2_\ Does your view contemplate the infliction of punishment together 
 with some attempt to reform the individual criminal r 
 
 I think that the reformation of a prisoner should always be kept in view, 
 evtn for the shortest period : but the discii)line should be so adapted as to 
 meet the changing circumstances of the longer or the shorter sentences. 
 
 1123. Does not the fact of a long sentence or a short sentence make the 
 whole difference in your view of the case r 
 
 Yes, in my view of the administration of discipline, it does. 
 
 1 124. Do youbeheve that the moral reformation of a prisoner, as it has been 
 called, could be effectively carried out with a short sentence ? 
 
 No ; under such conditions I am of ojjinion that the discipline should be 
 more directed to deter tlian to reform ; no onc> can hope to reform during very 
 short periods, and if you fail to deter, you miss both the objects of a sentence. 
 
 1 125. Would
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. Ill 
 
 1 1 2,5. Would you consider it desirable in the case of short sentences to apply Major-General 
 industrial training or occupations, such as book-binding or carpentering ? Sir Joshua Jebb, 
 
 Under the Act 4tli of George tho 4th it is provided, " That due provision k. c. b. 
 
 shall be made in every prison for the enforcement of hard labour in the cases 12th March 1863. 
 
 of prisoners sentenced thereto, and for the employment of other prisoners." I 
 
 would draw the attention of the Committee to the distinction in this Act be- 
 tween hard labour and employment. It is further enacted in clause 8, " That 
 everv prisoner sentenced to hard labour shall, unless prevented by sickness, be 
 employed so many hours in every day, not exceeding 10, exclusive of the time 
 allowed for meals, as shall be directed." ISow, the Select Committee on 
 Prison Discipline of 1850, in their comprehensive and valuable report, state 
 in resolutiou 13, " That hard labour is not incompatible with separate confine- 
 ment ; " and in the 25th resolution it is stated, " That provision ought to be 
 made in every prison for enforcina; sentences of hard labour." The Com- 
 mittee thus confirmed by their opinion the provisions of the Government Act. 
 
 1 1 26. Would you state what in your opinion is the meaning of hard labour, 
 as applied especially to the shorter sentences of imprisonment r 
 
 I think that those two provisions of the Act and the opinion of the Select Com- 
 mittee of 1850, point to the enforcement of distasteful hard labour of a penal 
 character, with a view to deter ; that is my interpretation of hard labour. The 
 employment of prisoners more particularly refers, according to my view, to the 
 employment that would be given to a prisoner before trial, because the same 
 Committee recommend that the separate confinement should be applied to pri- 
 soners hefore trial, whom it would not be legal to punish; and under the Act 
 of the 2d and 3d of Victoria it is provided, amongst other things, that one of 
 the conditions shall be, that a prisoner, being kept in separate confinement, shall 
 be furnished with employment ; but tliat is a different thing to distasteful penal 
 labour with a view to deter him from crime, and which the Committee lay down 
 as not being " incompatible." 
 
 1127. Lord Steward.'] Are the Committee to understand that employment 
 would be optional with the prisoner ? 
 
 Yes, it would be optional before trial ; employment should be offered to him 
 as an amelioration of his confinement. 
 
 1128. Chairman. ~\ In your opinion does industrial occupation constitute hard 
 labour of a penal or a distasteful kind 'r 
 
 I think not ; as usually understood. 
 
 1 1 29. Are you conversant with the system as practised in the gaol at 
 Reading ? 
 
 Not exactly now ; it is some time since I visited that establishment, but when 
 I was aware of it, it was a system almost entirely identical with that of Pen- 
 tonville, where prisoners were confined for 12 to 18 months. 
 
 1 1 30. Would that, in your opinion, be a proper system to apply to short- 
 sentence prisoners ? 
 
 No. 
 
 1131. Would it be likely to have any deterring effect upon them ? 
 I think not, during short periods. 
 
 1132. Would it be likely to have any reforming effect upon them ? 
 
 It might to a certain extent, but I do not think that the period of what I 
 should term short sentences, would admit of the hope that a prisoner would be 
 reformed under any system ; it would, however, be a protection, and give him 
 the best chance. 
 
 1133. Therefore the Committee are to understand that with reference to the 
 short-sentence prisoners, at all events, you would impose upon them the hard 
 labour which you have spoken of as being of a penal and distasteful cha- 
 racter ? 
 
 Yes, certainly ; combined with short separation. 
 
 I 1 34. What is the maximum of a short sentence, in point of duration, which 
 you contemplate in such a case ? 
 
 Tiiat would depend very much upon the character of the prisoner. I should 
 (37. 4-) O4 be
 
 112 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Minor General be disposed to admit of a certain modification in regard to the term for 
 
 Siy'Joihua Jebh, which I would administer distasteful hard labour. With regard to the 
 
 K.c.B. military prisons, with which I have had some experience, having organized 
 
 12th jTrch 186:! tbem, and superintended them for the last 18 years, the Committee npon 
 
 _^ " mihtar} prisoners, of which Lord Cathcart was the Chairman, recommended 
 
 that the discipline should be as severe as was compatible with the circum- 
 stances, because it was necessary for other objects to make the sentences very 
 short, so that a man might return to his regiment : but the Committee were 
 very anxious not to carry out those sentences in a way that would either degrade 
 the soldier, or render him reckless and revengeful ; they wished to encourage 
 hope and amendment on his parr, even during short sentences which now 
 do not average more than about 60 days. Formerly the average was about 90 
 days. 
 
 1135. Would you be good enough to explain to the Committee what 
 length of sentence you propose in your idea of a short sentence '! 
 
 I have just stated with respect to the short sentences of military prisoners, 
 that they do not now average more than 60 days, and I should not be disposed 
 to carry out one uniform rigid hard labour discipline with even those short 
 sentences, excepting in the case of reconvicted prisoners. 
 
 1 136. Lord WodeJiouse.'] Where would you draw the line between them and 
 the prisoners who may be said to be sentenced for long terms ? 
 
 I think that a prisoner sentenced for a month or six weeks might be kept at 
 hard labour the whole of the time. I do not think that it would be expedient 
 to make much change in that time. 
 
 1137. Chairman.] Would you be of opinion that even up to three months 
 there was much chance of industrial occupation producing a reformatory 
 effect upon the prisoner ? 
 
 No, I should not ; but in reference to industrial occupation, it might be 
 granted to some men in the way of a remission in their favour of the hours 
 of labour, or substituting instruction in school for a portion of the hard labour ; 
 it would be more in that way that I should make a change under a short sen- 
 tence of three months, with an ordinary prisoner. 
 
 1 1 38. Marquess of Salisbury/.'] Would you combine hard labour, and wha 
 you have termed employment, in the same individual, with the view of lightening 
 his term r 
 
 Not in a very short term. 
 
 1 139. Beyond six weeks I think I understood you to say you would do so ? 
 Of course I can only epeak in a general way, on a sort of average ; if a 
 
 prisoner were in for six weeks, and were an evil-disposed man, it would be 
 better to endeavour to deter him by severe discipline ; and if he were in for a 
 longer period, say up to three months, and seemed to deserve it, it then might 
 be relaxed a little, with a view to encoui-age his good behaviour. 
 
 1140. Do you think it desirable in such cases, to combine hard labour with 
 his being engaged for a portion of his time in employment ? 
 
 Yes, I think after a certain period the two might be advantageously combined ; 
 that is just what is tlone in military prisons. 
 
 1141. Chairman.'] And the relaxation itself would be very gradual, and would 
 go on with the working out of the sentence, would it not ? 
 
 Yes, it would be gradual, and would depend in a great measure upon the 
 chai-acter of the man that you have to deal with. 
 
 I I 42. Lord Wodchousc.'] The system whicli you would recommend would be, 
 that when prisoners who were placed on hard labour, strictly so termed, conduct 
 themselvcswell, they should have the relaxation of being employed for a portion 
 of their time in industrial labour, subject to being re-employed upon the more 
 severe labour if they do not (;ontinuc to conduct themselves well r 
 
 Yes. If the Connnittec will allow me I would refer to the Rules for Military 
 Prisons, for 1851, 1 think they will explain the routine. They are as follows : 
 " Prisoners generally will, except in very special cases, be placed on reception 
 in the third class," (that is, the lowest class) " but the governor will exercise 
 
 his
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 113 
 
 his discretion, except in the case of re-convicted prisoners, in making an early Major-General 
 selection for promotion to the second or fiist class, of any prisoner who, from Sir Jos/ma Jeb'o, 
 the nature of his offence, previous good character and conduct in prison, appears k.c.u. 
 
 deserving of such distinction." That would be a great encouragement to all ,2th Maicli iSe-i 
 
 who intended to do well. " Prisoners who have been previously convicted by a " 
 
 court-martial shall, on admission, be placed in the third class, and if previously 
 convicted within six months of their admission, shall not be promoted to a 
 higher class until three-fourths of the period of their sentence shall have expired ; 
 if within 12 months of their admission, not until one-half of their sentence 
 shall have expired ; and if within 18 months of their admission, not until one- 
 fourth of their sentence shall have expired. Prisoners who have been previously 
 convicted, but not within 18 months, maybe promoted to a higher class, at the 
 discretion of the Governor. On foreign stations the visitors may relax this rule 
 in the case of prisoneis under sentence for periods exceeding six months. At 
 home, the visitors will report specially, for the Secretary at War's decision, any cass 
 in which they recommend the relaxation of this rule in favour of a prisoner, on 
 account of good conduct. Prisoners in the third class will, by good conduct, 
 be eligible for promotion into the second class, under tlie above restrictions. 
 The first class will be composed of those prisoneis who, from their quiet, orderly 
 habits, and general good conduct under punishment, may appear deserving of 
 being promoted from the second class, after some experience has been gained 
 of their characters. Prisoners in either the first or second class will also be 
 liable to be removed to a lower class for misconduct." Tlie distinction in the 
 different classes is this : all military prisoners commence by sleeping lor the 
 first week without a bed, the same as if they were on guard, with nothing 
 but their blanket. After the first week the third class have a bed given them 
 every third night ; and they have shot-drill for an hour-and-a-half in the 
 morning, and an houi'-and-a-half in the afternoon, with 32-lb. shot; they have 
 oakum-picking for two hours in the evening, and tlieyhave, I think, four hours 
 of drill in heavy marching order. On being promoted for good conduct to the 
 second class they get a bed every other night ; they have the shot exercise with a 
 24-lb. instead of a 32-lb. shot ; and, instead of picking oakum in the evening, they 
 go to school. The first class are relieved from shot-drill altogether ; they work. 
 at gun-drill and other things, and they are selected for doing certain duties 
 of the prison which are of a lighter kind ; they get their bed every night. 
 Formerly the first was the only class that had meat, and they had a meat dinner 
 on Sunday ; but now, from some medical testimony in favour of increased diet, 
 all the prisoners get meat three times a week, as well as the first class. 
 
 1 143. Chairman.] Therefore the principle of the system consists in having a 
 certain variety of classes ? 
 
 Yes ; certain gradations in the punishment, and it is in a great degree the 
 application of the same principle which has been in operation in the convict 
 prisons. This is one of encouragement, combined with great stringency of 
 discipline. 
 
 1144. From your experience of county and borough prisons generally, are 
 you of opinion that the principles of that system could be in any way applied to 
 them r 
 
 I have no doubt of it. 
 
 114,5. Lord Steward.] Would not the shot-drill be found practically incon- 
 venient, as being likely to produce rupture ? 
 
 We liave never found it so in the military prisons ; it is entirely under the re- 
 gulation of the medical man, who sees whether a man is fit for it or not ; and it 
 is so far, perhai)s, easier to carry it out in mihtary prisons than in county 
 prisons, because there are prescribed orders for the position in which a man shall 
 stand when he lifts the shot ; but if it were adopted in a county prison, I should 
 propose to have it on a higher level, so that the prisoner should not have to 
 stoop down, and then it could not be prejudicial. 
 
 1 146. Chairman.'] There could be no apprehension then of rupture? 
 
 I should think not ; there has been no inconvenience of that sort felt, the 
 medical officer having inspected the man before he is put to that kind 'of hard 
 labour ; but few e-^ceptional cases arise. 
 
 (37.4.) P 1147. Are
 
 114 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major General 1147- Are 3'ou of opinion that shot-drill is very useful either as a prison 
 
 A7r Joshua Jebb, punishment or as a disciplinary stage ? 
 
 ^^^' I think it is a punishment that the prisoners dislike very much, and that it 
 
 liiliMarch 1863. h^s the merit of being- exceedingly economical in its first establishment. 
 
 1 1 48. Lord Steward.] 1 las it a prejudicial effect upon the temper of the men, 
 and does it make them irritable and discontented ': 
 
 I think not ; we have never found it so ; it is not carried out for any great 
 length of time ; an hour and a half in the morning and an hour and a half in 
 the afternoon is all. 
 
 1 140. You do not think that they dislike what they must know to be unpro- 
 ductive labour ? 
 
 No. that makes it more penal, and they feel it to be penal labour. It would 
 appear to be an object to be kept in view. 
 
 1150. Marquess of Salisbury.'] How is the shot-drill carried on ? 
 
 There are various ways in which it is carried on, which are perhaps difficult to 
 ex])lain, but I could state it simply thus : — A row of shot are laid on the ground, 
 or rather on a small block to raise them a few inches fi'om the ground in a line. 
 The men are formed up in the rear of the siiot, and on a signal thev stoop 
 down and take the shot up, and then face to the right or left, march three or 
 four paces to where the next shot was, and set it down again; on a signal 
 they take up the shot again, march back, and replace them where they took 
 them from. That is the most severe way of carrying out the drill, from a man 
 having the shot always in hand ; in the other way, where it is deposited in 
 a pile, the man comes back to his place empty-handed. 
 
 1151. Chairman.~\ You may carry the drill to any extent of complication, and 
 you may keep it exceedingly simple, may you not ? 
 
 It may be very simple ; that depends a good deal upon the number; if there 
 are a large number of prisoners, they do it in successive lines, perhaps 10 or 15 
 men in a line. 
 
 1152. Marquess of Salisbury.] At what pace are they bound to lift those shot ? 
 About the ordinary quick time, or rather slower, I think. Here is a diagram 
 
 (produci?)^ {be same), which will explain the shot drill to the Committee.— (7'Ae 
 Ifit?ie.-<s ddivtred in tlie name. Vide Appendix.) 
 
 1 153. Does this diagram give the time.- 
 Yes, it gives the whole process. 
 
 1 1 54. Does it give the pace at which they go ? 
 
 1 do not think that that is named ; they take a steady pace ; they have only 
 three or four paces to take ; they just take the pace, and do it altogether ; they 
 do it by signal, and so many are lifted in a minute. 
 
 1155. Chairman.] I beheve the system which is pursued in the military 
 l)ri.sons has been applied to the naval prisons which have been recently 
 established ? 
 
 There has been a naval prison recently established at Lewes on the plan of 
 the military prisons. 
 
 1 i5(i. Is the shot-drill practised in the naval prisons ? 
 Yes, it is in the prison at Lewes. 
 
 7 1:,7. Consequently there would be no more difficulty in applying a simpler 
 form of shot-drill to agricultural labourers than there would be in applying it 
 to sailors ? 
 
 I think not ; they would very soon fall into it. 
 
 1158. May the Committee, therefore, understand that you would recom- 
 mend shot-drill as one of the employments for ])risoners, either in the nature of 
 ])uni^hnient, or in the nature uf a disciplinary stage through which tliey must 
 pass ? 
 
 I think it would be a very good means of enforcing hard labour. It has been 
 enforced in that way in some county prisons ; and probably evidence might be 
 obtained from those prisons on the subject. 
 
 1159. Duke
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PraSON DISCIPLINE. 115 
 
 1150. Duke of Richmond.] Do you prefer the shot drill to the treadwheel Mnjor-General 
 or tlie 'crank ? '^'' "^k.^ b/'**' 
 
 The treadwheel is, I think, in some respects bettei-, especially, that it may ' 
 
 be subdivided into compartments, and therefore you could carry en separate lisih March 1863. 
 confinement in connexiini with hard labour ; this coukl not well be effected — — — 
 with shot-drill. Tliat is the only objection that I have to shot-drill for the 
 county prisons ; I do not quite see the way in which it could be carried out 
 in separation. 
 
 11 60. Would not the treadwheel have the effect of keeping the prisoner's 
 muscles in better order than the shot-drill ? 
 
 I think it might. 
 
 1161. My question supposes that the treadwheel is properly constructed, 
 ^vhere both arms and feet are brought into exei'cise r 
 
 Just so. 
 
 1162. Chairman.'] Are the Committee to presume that a variety of prison 
 punishments is, in your opinion, desirable ? 
 
 Ido not know that anvgreat variety would be desirable, except that some punish- 
 ments may be applied to certain individuals that cannot be applied to others. 
 
 1 163. Are you of opinion that the crank is a useful form of punishment r 
 
 I think it is, but it is open to this objection, that if the governor has the 
 power of putting on the screw too tightly, he can, at his own discretion, increase 
 the hard labour beyond what was perhaps contemplated ; and there is also this 
 further objection, that if the machinery is not kept well oileil and in very good 
 order, all the diflerence in the hard labour falls upon the prisoner. 
 
 1164. Would it not, however, be possible to remedy that by having one 
 uniform amount of pressure b)' which every crank could be regulated? 
 
 There might be a very low maximum, and that, I think, would do it. 
 
 1 165. Following up a question of the noble Duke's, would it not perhaps be 
 desirable to have the ciank lor one set of prisoners, and the treadwheel for 
 another, and shot-drill for a third set of prisoners, in order to call the different 
 muscles of the body into play in turn ? 
 
 I think it would be possible, and it might be convenient ; and if one were 
 more distasteful than another, or of a more penal character, that would fall in 
 very well with the gradations in punishment. 
 
 1 1 G6. Lord Steward.'] Is not the crank labour liable to the same objection as 
 shot-drill, that you cannot carry it out separately ? 
 
 No ; the crank luay be put into a cell, or through the whole range of cells, or 
 the crank can be easily arranged in compartments out of doors, and applied for 
 pumping or other work. 
 
 1 1 67. Chairman.] There are two forms of crank which are commonly in use in 
 prisons, the one which has one continuous bar connecting every crank together, 
 and the other, which is commonly known by the name of the hard labour crank, 
 or the cellular crank, which employs one single man to turn it ; to which are 
 you alluding ? 
 
 I was explaining both. One maybe made for each separate cell, or a line of 
 cranks may run through the whole of the cells. Tlie one in the separate cell is 
 the most penal of the two, because every one must do his share, whereas in a line 
 of cranks it is very difficult to regulate it ; one man might merely allow the 
 crank to go round, and the others would be turning it, whilst he was not helping 
 at all. 
 
 1 168. Do you see any objection to the use of the hard labour or unproductive 
 crank as constituting a penal stage ? 
 
 It is a highly penal labour. 
 
 1 169. Provided that the regulation of the screw was satisfactory, and that the 
 pressure was not excessive, would you have any objection to it then as a 
 punishment ? 
 
 The only objection that occurs to me is that the cells, as usually constructed, 
 have scarcely enough means of ventilation for that purpose, and they become 
 too hot. 
 
 (37- 4-) p2 1170. Supposing
 
 ] \G MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Majoi-Gmeral 1 ' 70- Supposing that the amount of pressure can be satisfactorily regulated. 
 
 Sir Joshua Jebb, and that the crank itself is erected, not in the cell, but in some more convenient 
 
 ^•^•" ' place, where there is a free admission of air, would you then be of opinion that 
 
 i2tli March 1863 ^* ^^"^"^ ^^^ undesirablf mode of prison punishment? 
 
 J " JNot at all. 
 
 1171. Lord Wodehoiuse.] Would it not be very difficult indeed, without occu- 
 pying too much space, to have cranks sejiarate the one from the other at which 
 the prisoners could work, and which would not be in tlie cells ? 
 
 J^o, it is a very narrow machine, and small compartments, such as you see 
 the treadwheel divided into, or rather wider, woidd be sufficient for separate 
 cranks. 
 
 1172. Chairman.^ It is smaller in bulk, is it not, than the crank, which is 
 connected by one continuous shaft ? 
 
 Yes, it is very narrow. 
 
 1173. Duke oi lUclnnoud.'] Are you alluding to the description of crank 
 which is now in use in the Petworth gaol ? 
 
 I have not seen that crank. I think there are some at Winchester, and some 
 at Lewes in the separate cells. 
 
 1174. Lord Wcdehouse.'] If I understand you rightly, you do not think that 
 one separate crank would occupy more space, if so much, than the treadwheel 
 at present? 
 
 No, I do not think it would ; it would not require so large a building. 
 
 1:75. Earl of Diic/e.] Is it a fact, that the hard labour or vmproductive crank 
 is generally discontinued in prisons now? 
 That I am not aware of. 
 
 1 176. Is it within your knowledge, that the infliction of this punishment of 
 the unpiuductive crank leads to insubordination, produced by irritation and 
 despair on the part of the prisoners ? 
 
 I have not heard of that ; the Inspector of Prisons will be able to give the 
 Committee information on that subject. 
 
 1177. Is the unproductive crank a more irritating and disheartening labour 
 than the shot-drill would be ? 
 
 That would depend upon circumstances ; but I think it just possible that it 
 might be so, from being more continuous. 
 
 1 178. Chairman.'] Is there not this difference with regard to the unpi'oductive 
 crank, that in some cases the index of the work done is within sight of the 
 prisoner, and in other cases the index is placed outside the door of the cell ? 
 
 Yes ; I liave seen it both ways. 
 
 1 179. Would you not suppose that that constitutes a considerable difference, 
 and that the prisoner, if he could measure the amount of work done as he 
 effected the revolutions of the crank, would be less disposed to feel that 
 irritating and depressing- influence ? 
 
 1 hat would depend very much upon circumstances ; some prisoners will 
 resist anything that is disagreeable to them. 
 
 1 180. Duke of Marlborough.'] From your experience, do you disapprove of 
 improductive labour ? 
 
 Ko, I do not at all disapprove of unproductive labour when you are enforcing 
 a sentence of liard labour. The labour that is the most productive, as far as 
 the county rates arc concerned, is tli:it which will keep a man out of prison ; 
 and if a prisoner is placed merely in industrial employment for a very short 
 time, it cannot have the same deterring influence that penal labour has. 
 
 1181. Then your answer would extend simply to short terms of imprisonment? 
 To short terms entirely ; because in the convict prisons where we have long 
 
 terms, we trust mainly to the deterring influence of loss of liberty. We begin 
 fi-om the first day a man enters Pentonville to occujjy him at industrial employ- 
 ments, because the length of the period of confinement will have a sufficiently 
 deterring effect on the man himself, and out of doors as an exemplary punish- 
 ment. 
 
 1 182. Duke
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 117 
 
 1182. Duke of Riclimor.d.'] Do you think it possible in short sentences to Maior-Gtmrnl 
 carry out the system of industrial employment ? Sir Joshua Jcbh, 
 
 Not during short sentences ; at least not to advantage. k.c.b. 
 
 1 183. Would it be practicable, in sentences varying from three weeks up to i^ih March 1SG3, 
 six weeks in agricultural districts, to carry out the system of industrial employ- — — — 
 ment ? 
 
 I should think not.. They would know nothing when they came in, and they 
 could not learn anything. I do not call oakum-picking an industrial employ- 
 ment ; tiiat is a penal labour of a light description. 
 
 1184. Lord Stauard.'] You stated also, did you not, that you did not approve 
 of the introduction of the Pentonville system into county prisons ? 
 
 No, not for short terms. 
 
 1185. Earl Cutlicarl.] In your evidence this morning you have laid great 
 stress upon two points, namely, with reference to the importance of separation, 
 and the ad vantage of uniformity of system throughout the country. 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1186. With regard to separation, you must very much lament the circum- 
 stances which occur at this moment in some prisons in England, namely, the 
 association, of whicli C'oldbath Fields is an example, where many prisoners 
 are associated together at night time upon beds laid down upon the floor, and 
 nearly seventy in a room ? 
 
 Veiy much indeed, nothing can be worse. 
 
 1187. With regard to uniformity of system throughout the country, could 
 you suggest to their Lordships any system by which that uniformity throughout 
 the country might be secured, which you have stated that you consider to be 
 a matter of very great importance indeed ? 
 
 Ihere is a very considerable approximation to uniformity of construction 
 now in the country generally ; and 1 tlujik it is almost a question for your 
 Lordships to consider whether the permissive clause of the 2d & 3d of 
 Victoria, chapter 56, which allows of separate confinement being carried out, 
 should, with a view to establishing uniformity of discipline, be made compulsory, 
 instead of merely permissive. The clause states, " And be it declared and 
 enacted. That separate confinement under the provisions of this Act shall not 
 be deemed solitary confinement within the meaning of any Act forbidding the 
 continuance of solitary confinement for more than a limited time ;" but the 
 adoption of the system is left with the magistrates. Lord John Russell in 1837 
 strongly recommended the adoption of the principle in a circular. 
 
 n88. Do you not think that the inspection of prisons by the Crown 
 Inspectors, to be followed immediately by a report, would have a good deal to 
 do in securing uniformity f 
 
 I think the law would require to be clearly laid down first, and the regulations 
 for enforcing the law. 
 
 1 189. And publicity in this, as in other matters in this country, is a matter 
 of great importance, is it not? 
 
 Certainly. 
 
 1 1 90. With regard to the inspection of prisons, do you think that two inspectors 
 are sufficient to inspect all the prisons and places of detention in England ? 
 
 I cannot offer an opinion upon that point. 
 
 iiQi. Do you not think that it is a matter of importance that the report of 
 the inspector should be sent through the Home Office to the quarter sessions 
 as soon as j^ossible after his inspection ? 
 
 I should think so, certainly. 
 
 1 1Q2. The effect of the report would be very much dependent, would it not, 
 upon its (;oming immediately after the inspection, wliich led to the report ? 
 
 It might perhaps be difficult to secure a report immediately afterwards, 
 because the inspection goes on throughout the year, and by the Act of Parliament 
 the report is onl}' laid before Parliament at certain periods. 
 
 1193. By some modification of the existing system, do you not think it 
 important that the quarter sessions should receive the report of the inspector as 
 soon as possible after the inspection ? 
 
 (37. 4.) p 3 I think
 
 118 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 MttjoT-General I think it would be desirable that a copy of the report should be forwarded 
 -Sir Joshua Jebh, to iiiagistrates, 
 
 K.C.B. 
 
 1194- With regard to my former question, do you think that two inspectors 
 
 •12th March 1863. can efficiently inspect all the prisons in England ? 
 
 Where there is a considerable degree of uniformity they would not require 
 
 the same amount of inspection. 
 
 1 iQ.T. But could they do so under the existing system with the present want 
 of uniformity 1 
 
 Until greater uniformity exists in prisons they would require very close 
 inspection. 
 
 1196. Do not you think it a matter of very great importance that every 
 prison and every house of detention should be inspected at least once a year ? 
 I should think so. 
 
 1 107. Are you not aware that that is not now the case ? 
 I am not aware of that. 
 
 1198. You are probably aware, from your knowledge of the sentences of 
 criminals, that there is throughout the country an extraordinary diversity of 
 sentences for the same offences ? 
 
 Yes, that is the most m.arkefl feature in the administration of the law. 
 
 1 ■. 09. Has it not struck you that that is an anomaly, which if it were possible, 
 should be removed? 
 
 You cannot fetter the discretion of a judge. 
 
 1200. But the matter has attracted your attention, has it not ? 
 
 Yes, and I feel it very much in the convict prisons under the present Act of 
 1857, liy which the judge may sentence a man for the same offence either to 
 seven years' penal servitude or to three, v.hich makes a very material difference 
 in the discipline, fiom a feeling on the part of many prisoners that the sentence 
 is unjust. 
 
 1 201 . With regard to the history of prisoners, do you not think that it would 
 be of very great importance indeed that some system of inter-communication 
 between the ])risons should be organized by which the previous history of 
 prisoners should be better traced than is the case at present 'i 
 
 It is a very inijiortant thing that there should be full and complete commu- 
 nication between the Home Secretary and the governors of prisons, and between 
 the governor of one prison and of another, respecting the antecedents of pri- 
 soners. 
 
 1202. Are you aware that at the present momenta number of prisoners 
 receive inadequate sentences because their previous history has not been 
 traced ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1 203. Are you aware whetlier the table of fees at present existing militates 
 against the proper administration of justice in that respect ? 
 
 I am not sure that it does to any great extent ; it is, 1 believe, known that 
 the habitual thieves remain in the same locahties, and do not travel about very 
 much. 
 
 ^10J,. Do you think that in some instances prison officers are deterred from 
 coming forward to give information as to the antecedents of a prisoner from the 
 inad<>quacy of their remuneration r 
 
 That I am not aware of. 
 
 120.> IjQviS. Lijveden.\ Will you i)oint out to the Committee how you think 
 an alteration in the Act which you have just mentioned would secure uni- 
 formity in the system ? 
 
 Prc-ssurt' would be brought upon those counties and boroughs which had not 
 got a prison apjjlicable to separate confinement. 
 
 1 206. How does that stand at pi-esent ? 
 
 The clause to adopt separate confinement is permissive, and by a subse- 
 quent clause certain conditions with regard to the cells are to be enforced. 
 
 1 207. Your
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 119 
 
 1207. Your notion is, that if it was made compulsory to adopt separate con- Major-General. 
 finement everywhere, that would to a great extent secure uniformity of Sir Juihuu Jebb, 
 
 ■' ' K.C.E. 
 
 system f 
 
 Yes, it would secure uniformity of system to a great extent; but I still 12th March 1863. 
 
 think that a great deal might be done by rules, because I. know of one prison 
 
 especially which is on the old construction (I speak now of the prison at Bris- 
 tol), wb.ere a most effective discipline is well kept up by the governor, with 
 very inadequate means as ngards construction : he has small cells, which are 
 only fit for sleeping in, and cannot be certified for separate confinement ; but 
 by dividing his treadwheel into close compartments, and letting out the ])ri- 
 soners from their cells at certain distances from each other, and shutting them 
 up in the compartments of the treadwheel, and marching them back again to 
 their cells in the same way, no two prisoners can ever see each other, and he 
 really obtains the advantages of separate confinement without the expense which 
 would be entailed by the construction of a prison. 
 
 1 208. These regulations which you speak of could be issued from the Home 
 Office without any alteration in the Act of Parliament, could they not ? 
 
 I am not aware of the extent of the power which the Secretary of State 
 could exercise. They could oiiginate with the visiting- Justices, and be ap- 
 proved by the Secretary of State. I believe, however, that the Secretary of 
 State has power to lay down any rule in addition to those which the justices 
 propose. 
 
 1209. Duke of Marlborough ?j Are you aware that there are some instances 
 in which prisons have no rules at all ? 
 
 I am not aware. 
 
 1210. Are you aware that at present the Secretary of State has no power to 
 enforce rules ? 
 
 1 think that his power is very inadequate, as far as I have understood ; but I 
 am not personally acquainted with that subject. 
 
 1211. At present there is no penalty in the Act for the non-observance of 
 any of the rules furnished by the Secretary of State ? 
 
 There is no penal clause, so that virtually he has not power to enforce 
 rules, excepting, I suppose, by mandamus. 
 
 1212. Should you think it would be an improvement which you would con- 
 temi)!ate in any legislation on this subject that power should be given to the Se- 
 cretary of State absolutely to enforce rules if they are not observed by prisons ? 
 
 I think so. 
 
 1213. In any case should you consider that it would be an advisable change 
 m the law that the Government should require the magistrates to frame rules 
 according to their ai)proval. and in the failure of those rules beiug so framed by 
 the magistrates the Government should have the power to frame rules of their 
 own, and send them dovvn to the gaols ? 
 
 I almost think that the power exists at present in the Home Secretarv ; I 
 think he has the power under the Act ; but from the want of a penal clause to 
 enforce the observance of his directions, it would be inoperative ; but I speak 
 under correction. 
 
 1214. Is it your idea, from the knowledge which you have of the state of the 
 law, that it was the intention of the legislature to confer that power on the 
 Home Secretary ? 
 
 I think so, at least to recognize the power. 
 
 1215. Earl of liovwey.'] With regard to the classification and promotion which 
 you suggested, and whicii is in use in military prisons, do you think that could 
 be carried out in county prisons ? 
 
 1 think it would be very easy to do so. 
 
 1216. Would there not be this difficulty, that the men in those prisons are 
 in for only a very short time ? 
 
 All tlu'se that were in for a very short period would be kept in one class, the 
 lowest class ; it would only come into operation for those who might be in for 
 two or three months ; then it might come into operation in that difficulty. 
 
 (37. 4.) P 4 \2\ 7. To
 
 120 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Muj jr-Gencral ^'2\j. To wliom do you give the power of raising them from one class to the 
 
 Sir Joshua Jebb, other ? 
 
 ^^- I think it would be for tlie governor to submit their names to the visitor of 
 
 12th Marcl. .863. tl^^ "'^^^'^ foi" ^"^ approval. 
 
 1 2 1 S. Would not it have the effect that there would be nothing certain 
 
 in the sentences ; if a man is sentenced to four months' or six months' impri- 
 sonment, and it is competent to the visitor of the gaol to move the man up or 
 down in those classes, would they not by that means increase or diminish the 
 sentence ? 
 
 I think, taking a practical view of the matter, if we were to assume the 
 present discipline for the second class to l)e the medium discipline, it wDuld be 
 more stringent discipline for the lowest class, and perhaps a less stringent dis- 
 cipline for the higher class. I do not think it would make the punishment less 
 certain because the discipline even of the first class for the short sentences ought 
 to be very severe. ' 
 
 1 Ji()- But no one would know when a sentence was passed for four months 
 what it really was. As the matter stands novs', you turn to the dietary, and you 
 turn to the punishments, and you know what four months means ; but if the 
 authority in the prison has the power of altering it, a judge, however well in- 
 formed u]ion the subject, does not know whether his sentence is carried out ? 
 
 He w ould not alter the term of confinement for a day, nor the dietary as laid 
 down, but there would be some little variation for the purpose of working the 
 discii)line, with a view* to the good influence it might iiave upon the prisoner ; 
 it woijld not, I think, make it less certain. 
 
 1220. Then, by a combination of the dietary and labour together, a sentence 
 of 21 days is a much more severe sentence than one of six months, is it not ? 
 
 Ws, for a time. 
 
 1221. And a sentence of four months would perhaps be more severe tliaa 
 one of six montlis ? 
 
 Yes, for a time ; but the longer tlie sentence the more severe on the whole. 
 
 122 2. If it is competent to the authorities in prisons to lift the prisoner up to a 
 higliei- class, the effect of tliat sentence which it was intended to have when it 
 was passed would be taken away, would it not r 
 
 I should not vary the dietary. The dietary would probably remain as at 
 present, because it is regulated by the period of confinement more than any- 
 thing else. 
 
 1223. Chairman.'] Besides the dietary and the hard labour which form 
 constituent parts of the discipline of a prison, you naturally look, do you not, 
 to the influence which the cell has upon the mind of a prisoner ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1224. Are you aware of the character of that discipline, so far as the 
 separate cell is concerned, in the majority of prisons in England ? 
 
 1 luive no doubt of its having a very corrective effect upon the mind of a 
 prisoner. 
 
 1225. Would you propose to provide for any uniformity as regards the 
 clothing of the prisoners in their cells, or the bedding which they are to occupy, 
 or the books whicih they are to receive whilst they are in the cell, or any other 
 indulgences which are sometimes allowed r 
 
 That might be a matter for consideration in framing the different gradations 
 of punishnfent. The deprivation of bed is one essential element of deterring 
 discipline. 
 
 1226. Do you see any advantnge in the use of the hammocks which are 
 verv frequently used in manv gaols ? 
 
 The particular advantage of them is that they roll up during the day, and 
 give you the whole space of the cell for carrying on any employment which 
 you may prescribe. 
 
 1227. Do not you think that it leads very often to a good deal of self-indul- 
 gence,' and that it is, on the whole, an easier and more comfortable mode of 
 sleeping than that which most prisoners enjoy out of prison ?
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON' DISCIPLINE. 121 
 
 It is a very comfortable bed, tbere is no doubt ; but, as I have stated, our Mojor-General 
 
 great object is to have the whole cell as vacant as possible if you employ Sir Joshua Jebb, 
 
 the prisoner in it ; and in that case a standing bedstead would occupy more k.c.^ . 
 
 space than was convenient. I think, as far as indulgence goes, that a i^ih March 1863. 
 
 man cannot make use of his hammock during the day at all. It is rolled up 
 
 and put away, and he would make use of his bedstead if it were there. 
 
 1228. Are you aware whether in many gaols the hours of sleep are not 
 extended to 12, 14, and even 16 hours? 
 That I am not aware of. 
 
 1 220. In your opinion, what is the maximum which ought to be allowed r 
 That would depend in some measure upon circumstances. If you have a 
 
 thorough means of lighting the prison, I do not think there ought to be any 
 
 difterence in the hours of labour or of sleep the whole year round. 
 
 1230. The Committee of tlie House of Commons in 1850 recommended 
 a maximum of eight hours' sleep ; do you agree with that r 
 
 Eight hours would be about what 1 should say was proper ; going to bed at 
 nine, they would rise at live. 
 
 1231. Do you not conceive that by thus reducing the hours of sleep to eight, 
 which is an unusually low number in most gaols, you might utilize the two or 
 three hours that would be gained, by employing them in instruction ? 
 
 Yes, I think you might. It would afford an opportunity of carrying out the 
 full maximum of 10 hours of hard labour, and you might give instruction in 
 addition, or take the instruction out of a part of the 10 hours. 
 
 1232. There are some gaols where the hours of hard labour at the crank, or 
 the treadwheel either, do not exceed two or three, or are absolutely none at 
 all ; are you of opinion that a sentence of hard labour pronounced in court is 
 satisfactorily and fairly can-itd out in such a case ? 
 
 I should say it was not carried out at all. 
 
 1233. I presume, that in your opinion the employment of a prisoner in an 
 industi'ial occupation would not be a legitimate carrying out of such a sentence? 
 
 I do not think it is within the meaning of the Act of the 4th of George the 
 Fourth. 
 
 1234. With regard to the punishments which are inflicted in prison for 
 prison offences, they may be divided, may they not, into corporal punish- 
 ments, into punishments of dietary, into solitary confinements, and into 
 reproofs or admonitions ? 
 
 Generally speaking, that is the range of punishment which is within the 
 power of the governors or the visiting justices to infliet. 
 
 1235. Are you aware whelher there is any other punishment in use in 
 any gaols ? 
 
 I am not aware that there is. 
 
 1236. Will you be good enough to give the Committee your opinion upon 
 those different forms of punishment ; you are probably acquainted with the 
 effect that corporal punishment produces in reference to prison offences ? 
 
 Corporal punishment in the convict prisons is administered for offences of 
 violence. I have here a list of thf offences, and they consist of mutiny or open 
 incitement to mutiny in the prison ; personal violence to any officer or servant to 
 the prison, or to a fellow-prisoner, or threats of such violence ; grossly offensive 
 or abusive language to any officer or servant of the prison, and several other 
 offences. Corporal punishment is usually confined in the convict prisons to acts 
 of violence, and the number of lashes to which we are now restricted is 24. 
 
 1237. Are you aware whether in county or in borough prisons the use of 
 corporal punishment has been found very effectual? 
 
 That I am not aware of. 
 
 1238. Are you of opinion that the stoppage of diet is a satisfactory punish- 
 ment ? 
 
 Yes ; I think it is. 
 
 (37.4-) Q 1239. Does
 
 122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mdjur-Gefieial 1 039. Does nut that imply that the diet itself must be rather in excess, if that 
 
 ^zr Joshua Jeub, g^oppage can be effected foi" several days lunning ? 
 
 ' Not always. It is the punishuient of hunger that is inflicted upon the man, 
 
 a 2th March 18G3. and I (lo not think it is an argument that the diet is in excess if you can give 
 
 him his bread and water, or a diminution of diet, without seriously injuring his 
 
 health. 
 
 1 240. Have not some prisoners been kept in a dark cell on bread and water 
 for a good many days running I 
 
 There i? a limit to that in military prisons, but I do not quite know what the 
 limit is in other prisons. 
 
 1241. Wliat is the limit in military prisons? 
 I think it is three days. 
 
 1242. Are you of opinion that solitary confinement at certain periods is of 
 advantage as a prison punishment ? 
 
 I think that solitary confinement, alternating with confinement with hard 
 labovn-, is a very good punishment, and it is very extensively adopted now in 
 the army in sentences by courts- martial, and is introduced into the Mutiny 
 Act ; it is seven days' solitary confinement, alternating with seven days' hard 
 labour, and so on, taking cure not to exceed the maximum amount of solitary 
 confinement which can be awarded within the twelve months. 
 
 1243. Will you explain to the Committee what you mean by solitary confine- 
 ment in such a case ? 
 
 Solitary confinement is confinement without employment in a light cell. 
 
 1244. W ould you allow in such a case the use of any book at all.- 
 No book but the Bible is allowed in the convict prisons. 
 
 1245. Is the chaplain allowed to have admittance to the cells? 
 
 The chaplain is allowed to visit the prisoners, and the medical officer and 
 the governor of course visits them every day. 
 
 124C. Are the warders allowed to interchange any words with the prisoner? 
 No, they merely serve him with his meals. 
 
 1247. Are you of opinion that such a system could be applied as a short 
 stage for the short-sentence prisoners, or as a preliminary stage for the longer 
 sentence prisoners ? 
 
 It would depend a little upon the character of the men. Seme men might 
 prefer a sentence of seven days' solitary confinement, where he could lounge his 
 time away in his cell, to seven days' hard labour at the crank. 
 
 1 248. Would you see any objection to enforcing solitary confinement for 
 three weeks, sujiposing there were nothing objectionable in an individual case ? 
 
 No, I do not see that there would be any objection in that. I am not sure 
 that it would be so severe a punishment as alternating it one week after the 
 other with hard labour. 
 
 1249. To what extent are reproofs administered as punishments in military- 
 prisons r 
 
 Whenever tlie oovernor sees that the offence does not require a greater 
 punishment than an admonition, or that an admonition will have a better effect 
 upon the prisoner, he exercises his discretion in giving him that admonition. 
 
 1 250. The admonition ranks in the nature of a punishment, does it not ; that 
 is to say, it is entered and re[Jorted as such ? 
 
 Yes, it is entered in the Defaultei's' Report Book. 
 
 12.51. If two admonitions fohow each other closely, is it the rule that a 
 punislinient of a different nature is inflicted? 
 
 Not a punishment in addition, but the governor would exercise his discretion 
 as to wliether he shoidd not punish the man instead of admonishing him. If 
 that admoriition should be of no use, 1 should think the natural course would 
 be to try j)unishnient for the next offence. 
 
 i-2.'i2. Can you state the proportion of admonitions to other punishments ? 
 No, I cannot. 
 
 1253. Would
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCirLINE. 123 
 
 1 253. Would you state briefly to the Committee what is the nature of the Mqjor-Gene<-af 
 
 changes which have been effected in niihtary jn-isons within the last ten years ? ^"' •^o*''"<* -ft^^^, 
 
 There have been no changes, I think, excepting in reference to diet ; the diet ^' ^' " ' 
 
 has been increased as I have mentioned. 12th March 1863. 
 
 1 254. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Can you give any reason for the alteration of 
 diet ? 
 
 It has been done on medical grounds. 
 
 12.55. Has any report been published on this subject? 
 I am not aware of any report having been published. 
 
 1 2 "6. Was it submitted to you ? 
 
 There were representations from the medical officers to the Secretary of State 
 for War, which led to the consideration of the diet being increased in conse- 
 quence of the loss of weight of the men and other circumstances. 
 
 1257. Are you aware that in one of your reports it is stated that, notwith- 
 standing the loss of weight of the men, the health of the ])risoners was better ? 
 
 For 12 or 14 years I should think the military prisons were carried on 
 without the use of any meat at all except for the first class, and tlie health of 
 the men was certainly, generally speaking, good ; but it was some change which 
 took placf in the views of the medical men or in the condition of the prisoners 
 which led to their receiving meat on three days in the week. 
 
 1258. There is, in your Report for 1859-60, a table which shows that, not- 
 withstanding the decrease in weight, there was a marked improvement in the 
 health of the prisoners ? 
 
 Yes, that was in some particular prison, I think. The report states : " Not- 
 withstanding the apparent effect of the punishment in causing a considerable 
 average loss of weight, it is remarkable and satisfactory that the number 
 treated for sickness during the years 1859 and 1860 was proportionately less 
 than in any year since 1848." 
 
 1 259. Is there any change of the kind mentioned in your report for the suc- 
 ceeding year 1860-61 ? 
 
 "Yes ; I state, at page 16, " An improved scale of diet, which had been in use 
 in the military prison at Aldershot since August 1 858, was provisionally adopted 
 for prisoners engaged at hard labour in military prisons at home stations in 
 September 1861 ;" and following that is the scale. But all the changes in diet 
 have been made entirely on the strong representations of medical officers, and 
 there are different views entertained by medical officers upon this as upon other 
 subjects. But it is difficult to resist a medical opinion when it is accompanied 
 by any statement saying that the health of prisoners is less satisfactory than it 
 ought to be. That has been the pressure brought upon the .Secretary of State 
 for War by the medical department of the Army : otherwise I think that the diet 
 would have been continued as it was originally intended. 
 
 1260. In your experience was it satisfactory } 
 
 I think that the diet was sufficient before, and I think I may say more ; I 
 think that they are beginning to find out that in some respects it is now too 
 good. 
 
 1261. Duke oi Richmond.] Is it not the case, that wdiat may be a sufficient 
 diet in one prison may not be sufficient in another ? 
 
 A good deal depends upon the climate, and I have no doubt a good deal 
 depends upon the class of prisoners that you have, and the habits of life to which 
 they have been accustomed ; in some counties they live better than in others. 
 Now, men accustomed to live well cannot bear the loss of the stimulants which 
 they have been in the habit of receiving, or the loss of sustenance. 
 
 I2fi2. Earl Cathcart.'] Dr. Brinton, the physician of St. Thomas's Hospital, 
 the latest authority I believe (ui the subject of food, and an authority of repute, 
 has laid it down, that although an insufficient diet may not show itself for a 
 time in telling upon a man, yet that afterwards it may slowly but surely sap his 
 constitution ; should you think from your experience that there was any truth 
 in that observation ? 
 
 (37 4.) Q 2 I think
 
 124 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major -General I think it is very possible, but our experience is confined to the pei'iod whilst 
 
 Sir Joshva Jebb, ^he inan is in custody. 
 
 K. C. B. 
 
 3263. After that you have no subsequent reports of the state of health of 
 
 ,2th March 1863. those men? 
 
 ~ I think there has been no subsequent report of the health of men suffering 
 
 after they have joined their corps. 
 
 1 264. Probably medical men in the army may have had opportunities of 
 judging subsequently to the prisoner's discharge from military prisons? 
 
 During a short period afterwards, I think it has been represented that the 
 men did not join their regiments in a fit state for duty ; why the change took 
 place I do not know. 
 
 1 265. You, as a military man, probably would say that the surgeon in a regi- 
 ment had great oppoitunities of judging and knowing a man's previous history, 
 and weekly opportunities of judging afterwards, and he would be a very good 
 authority upon the subject ? 
 
 Yes ; and it has been the weight which has been attached to those opinions 
 which has led to the diet being increased. 
 
 1266. Would those opinions carry very great weight in your mind also } 
 Certainly, if the point was clearly established. 
 
 1267. Do you not think that no medical men have so many opportunities of 
 judging as military nicdical men, because of their knowledge of the previous 
 history of the men, and their weekly opportunities of observing them after- 
 wards r 
 
 Yes, certainly. 
 
 1 268. Earl of Ronriiei/.'l Would it not make a great difference whether the man 
 was in prison for a very long time or not ? 
 
 Yes ; our present dietary provides, that after 56 days the diet shall be higher 
 than in the earlier jieriod ; but it is also a fact in medical science, which was 
 strongly stated attlie time when Pentonville Prison was first opened, that it was 
 of great importance in long sentences to commence with a good diet, and never 
 to let a man be down in his health at all ; that if he were once let down it would 
 be very difficult indeed to get him up again under the depressing influences of 
 separate confinement. 
 
 1 269. Did I'ou ever hear of a case where it was necessary to alter the system of 
 feeding within a prison because of the harm done by the system of feeding low 
 at the beginnini: and increasing- it at the latter end ? 
 
 No, I do not think I have ; but I believe the scales of diet are laid down 
 rather with reference to that in the Secretary of State's rules. 
 
 1 270. What is the longest sentence that you know of in a military prison ? 
 In ordinary cases not more than a year, but the average is not more than GO 
 
 days. 
 
 1271. Earl Catl/caiL] A scientific witness the other day before their Lord- 
 ships informed them, that in his opinion wheaten bread and milk would form a 
 very good diet ; do }'ou concur in that opinion ? 
 
 Yes ; there is a good deal of milk in the diet of military prisons. 
 
 1 27J. 1 have made inquiry at a large establishment in London, and I find that 
 the price of milk per quart is 4 fl., and the ])rice of stock-beef, used in making 
 soup, is also 4 d. a pound ; assuming the prices to be comparative throughout 
 the country, do you think that that would be an economical diet ? 
 
 I am not jjrcpared to say the relative amount of sustenance in milk and 
 meat, according to price. 
 
 1 273. Marquess of Salisbury.'] The expense of the military prisons does not 
 amount altogether to the pay of the soldier, does it ? 
 
 Generally .•^jjeaking, the stoppage of the pay and beer-money of the soldier 
 covers the entire expen.se of military prisons. 
 
 1 274. What is the amount of a soldier's pay ? 
 I think it is 1 *. 1 ^. a day. 
 
 1275. Earl
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 125 
 
 1275. Eavl of Ducie.'] Do you find the system in military prisons satisfactory Major- General 
 
 as far as the health of prisoners is concerned ? *'• "JJ'J"^/'**' 
 
 Yes, very satisfactory. 
 
 1 276. Do you find it to be a system which is easily and economically worked ? T^ ^th March 180 3. 
 It is very easily and very economically worked also, I think. 
 
 1277. Is it within your experience that it is deterrent in its influence? 
 Certainly. 
 
 1278. Is it a system which is only adapted to young men with healthy and 
 vigorous constitutions 'r 
 
 I think that any man of middle age would go through it very well; it per- 
 haps may not be "exactly adapted to what you would call old men, but with a 
 few exceptions it is adapted to the generahty of prisoners, such as you see in 
 county gaols. 
 
 1279. It is a great deal more severe than the ordinary discipline of county 
 prisons, is it not r 
 
 I think it is more stringent. 
 
 1280. Would you recommend that in short sentences in county prisons a 
 system should be introduced which should bring in some of the severities of 
 military prisons ? 
 
 I think it would in many cases be an improvement. 
 
 128 J. Lord Lyved(:n.'\ How do \ou prove that it is deterrent? 
 
 By this circumstance: when Lord Cathcart's Committee sat in 1842 or 1843, 
 a return was called for from all the regiments in the service to know how many 
 men were in confinement under sentence of court-martial at that time, and 
 what the average rate of flogging per 1,000 was ; and I tliink the returns were 
 that three per cent, of the men were at that time in confinement in county 
 gaols under sentence of imprisonment by courts-martial, and that the rate of 
 flogging in the army was five per cent. ; and, based upon these data, we formed 
 our calculations as to the accumulations that would be required, and the pre- 
 sent discipline had not been introduced more than 12 months before there was 
 a very manifest diminution in the number of men under sentence of confine- 
 ment ; that was concurrent with a diminution in the number sentenced to 
 flogging; and that went on, and in fact has been going on until the present 
 time ; I do not believe that the number now in either case is one-half of what 
 it was. 
 
 1282. Do you find the same prisoners return ? 
 
 Not very many ; the re- convictions do not take place in any very great pro- 
 portion. 
 
 1283. Do they speak of it as a great penalty? 
 
 Yes ; the system of discipline in military prisons is severe, and well adapted 
 for short sentences. 
 
 1 284. Duke of Richmond^] I understood you to tell the noble Lord that you 
 thought it woidd be advisable to introduce into county prisons some of the 
 severities of the mihtary system of iuiprisonment ; what portion of military dis- 
 cipline did you allude to when you gave that answer ? 
 
 I think that the deterring elements of the punishment are hard labour, hard 
 fare, and a hard bed ; and for the lowest class in a civil or a military prison, I 
 should projiose that those elements were applied, as far as they could consis- 
 tently, with a view to deter the lutn from crime. 
 
 12S-. Do you conceive that there is much difi^erence in severity between the 
 treadwheel and the shot-drill ? 
 
 i should think that the shot-drill is the most severe, from this circumstance, 
 that we nrc obliged to limit it to an hour and a half in the morning, and an hour 
 and a half in the afternoon, and the treadwheel can be worked all day. 
 
 1 2Sfi. Lord Lyveden.] Do you consider the fare of prisoners much harder 
 than that of the same class of persons when they are living at home ? 
 
 One can hardly compare the diet in a prison to what a labourer gets at home i 
 the conditions are so different. 
 
 (37.4.) Q 3 1287. But
 
 126 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major-Gcnend ^ 12 87. But when you speak of the deterring effect, you must mean that the 
 Sir Joshua JeLb, fare is harder than a man is accustomed to; otherwise, how can it be 
 K. c. B. deterring ? 
 
 12th March 1863. '^^^^ ^'"'^ f^^^ that I should refer to is giving as httle as is consistent with 
 
 the health of a man, and a kind of diet not such as he is perhaps accustomed 
 
 to would be useful. 
 
 1288. Are you prepared to say that tlie peasantry of this country in general 
 get more than is consistent with their health ? 
 
 It is a very dilticult question to compare the diet in prison with that of an 
 ordinary labourer out of doors. 
 
 1289. When you say that hard fare is a deterring cause, you are bound to 
 prove that it is harder than what the parties get out of doors ? 
 
 I shoidd give as little diet as would keep a man in health ; and the hard 
 labour and deprivation of liberty will do the rest. 
 
 i-.r90. Duke of Mctiiborough.'] It was given in evidence before this Committee 
 the oiher day by a medical witness, that a proper amuunt of exercise admi- 
 nistered to a prisoner either in the shape of walking exercise or hard labour 
 acted beneficially upon his system by enabling him the better to digest the food 
 that he received in ])rison, and so did away with the necessity of giving him a 
 superior kind of food ; does your expex-ience at all bear out that opinion r 
 
 I think that the fact of prisoners in separate confinement requiring a very 
 large amount of food to support them against the depressing influence, as it is 
 termed, of separate confinement, may partly arise from the less amount of 
 exercise they get, because it is really a fact that though the men are not 
 required to use great bodily exertion in the trades which they carry on, they 
 do require more food than men would require out of doors. 
 
 1291. So that if a proper amount of exercise were given to prisoners, with a 
 proper amount of fresh air, they might still be subject to the hard fare, which 
 you think is necessary as a proper punishment without its exercising any dele- 
 terious effect upon their system ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1292. Lm-d Steward.'] Do you think that the improvement wViich you state 
 has recently taken place in the diet of military prisons, has at all lessened the 
 deterrent effect of imprisonment ? 
 
 I think it would have a tendency that way, but it has not been sufficiently 
 tried to allow of any deduction being made from it. 
 
 1 293. Chairman.] With regard to the difficulty of proving the identity of 
 a prisoner, have you ever turned your mind to any remedy for that ; and are you 
 aware of any means by which it would be comparatively easy to prove a pre- 
 vious conviction against a prisoner ? 
 
 I think that a careful record of all the evidence at the trial of prisoners, and 
 an interchange of communication between the superintendents of police of the 
 different counties and boroughs, would certainly tend to have that effect. 
 
 1 294. The difficulty does not meet you in military prisons excepting in 
 respect to the one single offence of desertion, I believe ? 
 
 That i> the only case in which the difficulty exists. 
 
 129,5. In that case the remedy employed is that of placing a particular mark 
 upon the offender, is it not ? 
 Yes. 
 
 129(). And that mark is ineffaceable, is it not ? 
 I believe so, excepting after a painful operation. 
 
 1 297. Are you aware whether that practically answers the end in view r 
 I should think it does to a great extent. 
 
 1298. Duke of M(irlhoroug/i.] Where is that mark put? 
 It is put under the left breast. 
 
 1299. Chairman.'] Is that from your experience open to the objection which 
 is sometimes raised against it, that it is a degrading punishment ? 
 
 As far as the soldier goes, I think that if he deserts, it is well to mark him 
 
 in
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 127 
 
 in order that he may not enter the service again ; but that question has been Major-General 
 
 put before me in reference to a discharged convict, and to that I should cer- -Sir Joshua JM, 
 
 tainly have a great objection, because if a man is strugghng to earn an honest k. c.b. 
 
 livehhood or to go back into industrial courses, it would stamp him for the rest 12th March 1863. 
 
 of his life and prevent him from earning an honest livelihood. 
 
 1 300. ^^ ould it stamp him if the mark was affixed upon a part of the body 
 which never would be seen under ordinary circumstances ? 
 
 It could always be referred to. 
 
 1301. Are you aware of the evidence which the late Captain Maconochie 
 gave upon that subject .- 
 
 No, I am not. 
 
 1302. You are probably awai'e of the opinions which he entertaiiied with 
 regard to the importance of giving every man an opportunity on his discharge 
 from prison of recovering himself, and obtaining a fresh start in life ? 
 
 I think it is of the greatest possible importance : and I will take the liberty of 
 mentioning, as the question has been opened, that I think assistance to prisoners 
 on their discharge is a necessary complement to any good system of prison 
 discipline. 
 
 1303. Therefore you would be prepared to accept the oi)inion of Captain 
 Maconochie without any suspicion, coming as it does from such a person ? 
 
 Yes ; I think it is a matter of common sense. 
 
 1304. Are you aware that he proposed in his evidence, given before the 
 Committee of the House of Commons in 1850, to affix a certain mark between 
 the toes of the offender ? 
 
 No, I do not remember that ; and I should object to anything of that sort. 
 
 130-,. \)\x\e oi Richmond.'] Soldiers who desert are marked only with the 
 letter D, ai'e they not ? 
 I believe that is the case. 
 
 1306. Are they not also marked for bad conduct ? 
 Yes, for certain offences they do put B. C upon them. 
 
 1307. Chairman.] Does not the infliction of corporal punishment practically 
 mark any man ? 
 
 I should think it does, if it were severely inflicted. 
 
 1308. Must it not do so as administered in the Army and Navy ? 
 I should think so. 
 
 1309. Therefore, practically, you do affix a mark in that case r 
 Yes. 
 
 1310. Do you object to corporal punishment on that ground ? 
 
 No ; I do not think you can dispense with corporal punishment altogether ; 
 you must take the evil and the good together. 
 
 1311. Will you be good enough to draw a distinction between the two marks ; 
 one such as Captain Maconochie suggested, and the other such as is daily in 
 force in the Army and Navy ? 
 
 Corporal punishment would be quite the exception among prisoners, and as 
 I understand your Lordship's question, it would be a general rule to mark eveiy- 
 body. I think a general rule for marking deserters is very well, but not with all 
 discharged prisoners. 
 
 131-2. Earl of llnmney.'] With regard to corporal punishment you are limited 
 now to two dozen lashes, are you not ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1313. That would not mark a man seriously, vrould it? 
 
 No, I think not. I have not, however, much experience on the subject. 
 
 1314. Earl Cathcart.'] In one instance a man was taken in the North Riding 
 of Yorkshire, for passing bad five-pound notes, and he was identified because 
 he wore a belt round his waist marked D, which meant Dartmoor Prison : do not 
 you tliink that that example would go to prove that some system of marking 
 would be advantageous ? 
 
 1 think that the evil would be greater than the good. 
 
 (37.4) Q 4 • 1315. Lord
 
 128 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major- General 
 Sir Joshua Jebb, 
 
 K. c. B. 
 
 lith March 1863. 
 
 131,5. Lord M'ode]iouse.~\ ^^"ould not the objection to marking apply with 
 much greater force to a prisoner who had been sentenced to short terms of 
 imprisonment, than it would even to convicts r 
 
 Yes, of course ; because, numeiically, they are so much greater. 
 
 1316. And also it would be a great hardship, would it not, in impeding the 
 ease of his return to honest employment ? 
 
 Yes ; it would be only in tlie case of ii-reclaimably desperate characters that 
 I could recommend it. 
 
 1317. Clunrmanr\ Would you be prepared to relax your ol)jection in the case 
 of men who had been perhaps committed and re-committed to prison for very 
 violent assaults or other outrages ? 
 
 Y^es; I have just stated that, in certain exceptional cases, the objection would 
 be done away with, because it is assumed that a man never would attempt to 
 earn an honest livelihood, and that he is warring against society, and the pro- 
 tection of society would be certainly increased by marking him. 
 
 131 8. Therefore, in the case of incurable offenders, you would see no objec- 
 tion to affixing some such mark as has been described ? 
 
 No. 
 
 1319. Marquess of Snlishurj/I Would it in your opinion be desirable, for the 
 sake of identifying any criminal when he comes a second time into the hands of 
 justice, that a photograph should be taken of him when he comes in ? 
 
 In some cases it might lead to detection on the second offence, and it is 
 practised in some places, but I do not attach much importance to it. 
 
 1320. Duke of 3farlborou(/h.'\ With regard to the characters of prisoners, 
 do you find in the convict prisons that in the case of prisoners who come 
 to you after having been convicted a great many times for small offences, and 
 having suffered their punishments in county gaols, there is a marked difference 
 in their characters as compared to those who may come to you for one grave 
 offence ? 
 
 Yes, a very marked difference indeed. Those who are habituated to prisons 
 are known directly ; they generally conform to the discipline, and are not bad 
 prisoners as such, but still there is no reliance to be placed upon them ; they 
 are jjlaying a part. 
 
 1321. Any system which would apply to county gaols, and which would have 
 the effect oF diminishing the frequency of prisoners being brought to gaol for 
 short terms, would have a very important effect, would it not, upon the convict 
 prisons themselves ? 
 
 1 think there is no doubt about it ; it is from the county prisons that the 
 convict prisons are fed, which circumstance has always led me to attach great 
 •jmportance to the vigorous administi-ation of discipline in county |)risons. 
 
 1322. Chairman.'] To resume very briefly what you have stated to-day in evi- 
 dence, you have told the Committee that you are in favour of a greater uniformity 
 of system as regards both the construction and the discipline of tlie different 
 count}- and borough gaols of this country ? 
 
 Y es. 
 
 1323. And with that view, you would propose to entrust somewhat larger 
 powers than at present exist to the Home Secretary, to lay down rules which 
 should not be optional, but which should be obligatory upon the county and 
 borough magistrates ? 
 
 Yes, I think that would be an improvement. 
 
 1324. And you conceive that those rules could be laid down sufficiently to 
 insure the object in view without trenching \\\Mn\ the local jurisdiction of the 
 justices, which ought not to 1k' interfered with : 
 
 I should think so, and it would be for the public advantage. 
 
 1 325. Do you anticipate any difficulty in so framing your rules as to avoid 
 that ? 
 
 1 should think not ; but the aid given by the magistracy and visiting justices 
 is so great that certain discretionary powers should be lodged with them. 
 
 1326. And
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.. 129 
 
 1 326. And )'ou th'nk that such powers must bo lodged with them? Major-Geneml 
 
 Ype Sir Joshua Jebo, 
 
 K.C.B. 
 
 1327, Under any system of prison disciphne ? 
 
 I think so ; but 1 think that moderate powers entrusted to the Secretary of 12t h March 186 3. 
 State, and wisely administered, as no doubt they would be, would be sure to 
 command the concurrence of the country generally, for it would be for the 
 public advantage. 
 
 1528. It is further your opinion, is it not, that hard labour should be made 
 compulsory in ali short sentences, meaning, by hard labour, not industrial 
 occiipati(jn or employment, liUt labour either at the treadwheel or at the crank, 
 or the shot drill, or stone-breaking, or some such work ? 
 
 That I think seems to be contemplated under the Act of 4 Geo. 4. 
 
 1329. And it is your opinion, is it not, that it would be desirable to adopt 
 that practice ? 
 
 That is quite my opinion. 
 
 1330. "With regard to the hard labour or the cellular cranks, you believe that 
 if they could be worked in the open air or in the fresh air, and if they could be 
 used as a preliminary stage to long-sentence prisoners, or as a penal stage 
 or disciplinary stage to the short-sentence prisoners, and moreover if the 
 amount of pressure could be adjusted to a very moderate maximum indeed, the 
 objection against those cranks would disappear ? 
 
 I think so. 
 
 1331. And you would entertain no objection to their use, under the circum- 
 stances I have detailed ? 
 
 No. And probably their discontinuance in some prisons may have arisen 
 from the defects in the construction of the machines, and from its being found 
 that the cells were too close. 
 
 1332. And lastly, you would be in favour, where it seemed desirable, to 
 employ shot drill, either as a preliminary stage, or as a penal stage, to the 
 prisoners in county and borough gaols. 
 
 Yes ; it is a convenient and econoiuical means of enforcing hard labour. 
 
 1333. And you anticipate no difficulty in the use of that shot drill, inasmuch 
 as it has been applied to naval prisoners in naval prisons. 
 
 I do not anticipate any material difficulty. They would require some more 
 instruction before they got into the way of exercising themselves with the shot, 
 and perhaps it would require more precautions. 
 
 1334. Nor do you believe that there would be any risk of personal injurv 
 accruing to the prisoners, if the shot were raised upon steps or stands, instead 
 of obliging them to stoop down whenever they raised a shot ? 
 
 I think not; some precautionary measures being taken, and the medical 
 officer certifying that the man was fit to undergo that description of di'il!. 
 
 1335. In order very succinctly to get your view before the Committee, would 
 you be good enough to state whether there are any other points of essential 
 importance which you conceive ought to be considered by them ? 
 
 The main point of all is, in my judgment, separation, as the basis of dis- 
 cipline. 
 
 1336. Y)Vi\ie o{ Marlborough.'] If I understood you rightly, one of the points 
 which you advocate is, that the law with regard to the separation of prisoners 
 should be made compulsorv in all cases ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 i3.)7- In answer to one of the noble Lords, who asked you whether there 
 was not a considerable objection felt, in consequence of the diversity of sen- 
 tences in different parts of the country for the same offences, you stated that 
 you found in convict prisons that in some instances the same offence was visited 
 with seven years' penal servitude, and in other instances with three years' 
 penal servitude, \vill you state to the Committee what injurious effects you 
 have found flow from that difference ? 
 
 During the period of separate confinement, the men having no communica- 
 (37. 4. ) R tiou
 
 130 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major-General tion with eacli Other, the effect is imperceptible ; but the moment tliey get into 
 
 Sir Joshua Jebb, association on the pubHc works, the men naturally compare notes; and a man 
 
 ^•^•° ' who has received a sentence of three years for a particular offence, compares 
 
 12th March 1863 notes with a man who, for the same offence, may have received a sentence of 
 
 seven years ; and the man who has received the longer sentence necessarily 
 
 feels himself aggrieved, and that he has been treated with injustice, and he 
 perhaps becomes a reckless and dangerous man during the remainder of his 
 continement, and it may be, throughout the whole period of his life, in conse- 
 quence of his feeling that he has been treated unjustly. 
 
 1338.-00 not the various lengths of the sentences very often depend upon 
 the previous character of the convict ? 
 
 In some measure they may ; but the Act lays down that a certain portion of 
 time shall be added to the sentence which would be proper to pass for the 
 purpose of being remitted ; that is an anomaly which is contained in the second 
 or third clause of the Act of 1857 ; the term is added in some cases and not in 
 others. 
 
 1339. That is an objection which would be felt in convict prisons, I presume, 
 more than in county gaols ? 
 
 Cert I inly ; but although it would be impossible to limit the discretion of a judge, 
 it would be desirable to have it within narrow limits to avoid that difficulty. 
 
 1340. IVfarquess of Salisbury.] Has it ever occurred to you that it might be 
 possible in sentences for long continement after a certain time to remove the 
 prisoners from the county gaols to establishments conducted by the Govern- 
 ment, and thereby, of course, ensure unif irraity in their treatment ? 
 
 In very long sentences it might be possible ; it would be a sort of intermediate 
 system of discipline between the present convict system and the coimty prisons. 
 At present we carry out two separate periods : one in separate confinement 
 system in two prisons which we have engaged for the purpose,^ Wakefield and 
 Leicester, and another in the convict prisons ; but if an alteration were to 
 take place in the Act of 185/, by which the sentences of three and four years 
 confinement were taken away, it doubtless would cause an increase in the 
 number nf sentences passed for 12 and 18 months, or even two years in the 
 county prisons, and it would require careful consideration as to the discipline 
 which should be administered. TJje discipline that I have ventured to suggest 
 to the Committee of a gradation of punishments would come very fairly into 
 plav then. There would be a certain proportion of stringent hard labour 
 discipline going on in the earlier pei'iod, with some amelioration during the 
 latter period. 
 
 1.341. Could not that be carried on with much more uniformity under the 
 inspection of Government officers than it could in the separate gaols ? 
 
 I have no doubt of it; sentences above 12 months might be removed to 
 a district prison. There is an example of that in the case of Parkhurst ; 
 Parkhurst is for juveniles under sentence of penal servitude ; but the Secretary 
 of Slate has the power, on the application of magistrates, to place any boys 
 there whose sentences extend from 12 months to two years. 
 
 1342. On the whole, you think that under proper regulations, and the details 
 being well considered, such a plan would be rather desirabh; to be adopted ? 
 
 I think it might be desirable ; and il' it were carried out to any extent, it 
 would almost become necessary, because there is no question that if the number 
 of sentences to twelve montlis and upward- increased very much, more accom- 
 modation would be required in the county prisons ; and the best way of relieving 
 those prisons would be to draft out from them after twelve months confinement, 
 a certain proportion of the longer sentences. 
 
 1343. If that were beneficial in point of expense, would it not be beneficial 
 in point of deterring prisoners from offences which require those long confine- 
 ments ? 
 
 It would lead to iniiformitv ; it would be very much what the present convict 
 system now is, but under discipline more applicable to shorter terms. 
 
 13.^)4. Duke of j\farlhoroii(ji/i.'] Is it your opinion, that if the sentences in 
 county prisons were limited to sentences of sliort duration, say under twelve 
 
 months,
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. l31 
 
 montlis, it would ensure a more deterrent and a more uniform system of punish- Major-Genernl 
 
 mcnt in the county prisons being carried out ? Sir Joshua Jebb, 
 
 I think it -n-ould ; but with regard to the longer sentences, I merely suggest ^_^- 
 
 that with a view to prevent the counties having to increase their accommodation, ^^th March 1863. 
 
 any central pi'ison for the reception of all above twelve months, might be a very 
 
 convenient way of meeting it; I suggested it more with a view to convenience 
 and as being conducive to uniformity, than as making it more deterrent. 
 
 1345. Duke of RiclnnoniL] Supposing the plan now suggested is carried out, 
 if prisoners at the expiration of their sentence of twelve months, were kept 
 in the manner suggested, it would practically take them entirely out of the 
 jurisdiction of the magistrates, would it not ? 
 
 It might or might not, if a central prison were made subject to the jurisdic- 
 tion of the magistrate?, that Avould be one way of doing it ; but perhaps, as has 
 been suggested by one of your Lordships, the best way would be to have a 
 Government prison for the purpose, with a separate establishment. 
 
 134(5. When once they got into those prisons, they would be wholly out of 
 the jurisdiction of the magistrates, would they not r 
 Yes, if such a plan were carried out. 
 
 1347. Chairman.'] Is there any paper which you wish to put in, and which 
 you think might be useful to the Committee ? 
 
 Yes ; I have here a memorandum on the principal questions that appear to 
 require consideration with reference to the resolutions of the Select Com- 
 mittees of the House of Lords and of the House of Commons, on the subject 
 of convicts and imprisonment, and I could put in that part which refers to 
 imprisonment. It was written in 1856. 
 
 1348. Does your opinion remain the same as it was at the time when you 
 ■wrote that paper ? 
 
 Yes. quite so. I will just state what my conclusion was : " In considering the 
 present system of secondary punishment, increased stringency would appear 
 necessary in the discipline of county and borough prisons, combined with 
 greater encouragement to good conduct, and above all, assistance to prisoners on 
 discharge ;" that is as far as regards the imprisonment ; there are other questions 
 connected with transportation to which I need not refer. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 JOHN GEORGE PERRY, Esquire, is again called in, and further examined J. G. Perry, Esq. 
 
 as follows: 
 
 1349. Chairman.'] Without going back to any of the subjects included 
 in your examination the other day, I will just ask you one or two questions first 
 of all with regard to diet ; is it not the fact, that very great differences exist in 
 the different prisons in your district, with regard to diet ? 
 
 That is the case. 
 
 1 350. Some are below the Government scale, and some above the Government 
 scale ? 
 
 A few are above the Government scale, chiefly as to the allowance to short 
 sentenced prisoners. 
 
 1351. There is no uniformity of principle existing in the different gaols under 
 this head ? 
 
 in the greater number of the more important prisons the Government dietary 
 has been accepted with very little alteration, but there have been some modifi- 
 cations made even in them ; in the smaller gaols it has been variously modified, 
 so that it would be hardly too much to say that the modifications are endless in 
 the different small prisons. 
 
 (37.4.) R 2 1352. Will
 
 132 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. CPernj, Esij. 1,3,52. Will you be good enough to state what is the object which you believe 
 
 , ,;; : „„ is kejjt in view, and which you yourself would keep in view, with reajard to the 
 12th March 186,3. 1 lA j: i-i • • -^ / n .i • • ,1 1 • i 
 
 health or thi* prisoners ; is it to send the ]irisoner out in the highest possible 
 
 condition, or is it to send him out in the same state of health in which he was 
 
 received into the prison r 
 
 The latter would certainly not be the object which I should have in view, 
 
 because many persons come into prison in a most exhausted, diseased, and 
 
 debilitated state, and therefore I should certainly not aim at sending them out 
 
 in precisely the state in which they were admitted ; I should send them out, if 
 
 I had my wav, in such a state of health and strength as would enable them 
 
 to get their living, and in that way make it less likely that they would be 
 
 again committed to prison for offences which might be the consequence of 
 
 their inability to work. 
 
 13.5.)- Would you not endeavour to improve the health of prisoners to the 
 utmost point ? 
 
 If prisoners were admitted in full health, I should endeavour to maintain it ; 
 and if tbey were admitted out of health, I should endeavour to improve their 
 health. 
 
 1354. So as to raise it to the highest point which was possible ? 
 
 To that degree of health and vigour which would fit them for labour. 
 
 iS.W- ^^ ill yoii state, with regard to extra diets, whether you are in favour of 
 the principle that the surgeon should have a discretionary power of issuing 
 extra diets r 
 
 It is absolutely necessary that he should, unless so liigh a dietary were given 
 as would be far more than sufficient for the persons requiring the smallest 
 amount of food. 
 
 1356. Is it your opinion that a record should be kept in writing on every 
 occasion that an extra diet is issued, specifying the particular case, and the 
 reasons why that extra diet is allowed ? 
 
 It is so at present, and I think it is a very proper rule. 
 
 13,57. Are you aware whether that record acts at all as a check upon the 
 surgeon ? 
 
 I am not aware that such a check is necessary ; for I do not think that sur- 
 geons generally have any disposition to give extra diet where it is not required. 
 
 1358. Lord JVodeliouse.l Is it frequently the case where the Government 
 scale of dietary is adopted that the surgeons are obliged to give extra diet 
 except in case of illness ? 
 
 Where the Government scale is adopted without alteration, the number of 
 extra diets is very small indeed. 
 
 13,59. Duke of Richmond] In what mode is it that a different scale as to diet 
 is adopted, from that certified by the Secretary of State ? 
 
 It is not so. When I speak of the Crovernment dietary, I mean that recom- 
 mended by the Secretary of State ; but until it is adopted for a particular prison 
 it has not the force of law, and the magistrates are not obliged to give it. Like 
 the rest of the rules that were circulated by the (government, they may or may 
 not be adopted by the magistrates in quarter sessions. If they are adoptcid, they 
 are siiit up to the Secretary of State to receive his sanction and confirmation 
 for that particular prison ; but unk^ss the dietary, as one of the rules, lias been 
 certified for tlie particular prison, the magistrates are not required to use it. It 
 was in that sense that 1 spoke. 
 
 1360. Cluiirrnaii.'] Will you be good enough to state to the Committee what 
 the principle is upon which the surgeon acts when he issues an extra diet to a 
 prisoner ; that is to say, whether it is necessary that a prisoner should be con- 
 sidered an invalid previous to the issue of the extra diet, or whether that extra 
 diet is meri'ly given to him in order to supplement what, in the opinion of the 
 surgeon, is a supposed deficiency of food ? 
 
 I citnceive that the latter was the; intention of tlu^ law, but it is differently 
 inter|)retcd in different prisons. In some prisons the surgeon feels it his duty 
 to interfere before a man actually comi)lains of illness, and I think that is the 
 
 right
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 133 
 
 right view to take of it. Tlie surgeon may see that a man is falUng into a feeble /. (j, Perry, Esq. 
 
 state of health, although he may have no special illness which would lead him 
 
 to make a complaint. But in other prisons the surgeon feels that he is hardly i^th March 1863. 
 
 warranted in giving extra diet until a man is actually ill, and fit almost to be 
 
 sent to the infirmary. 
 
 1361. Therefore, in the one case the extra diet is issued when the man is 
 labouring under positive disease, whereas in the other case it is issued before he 
 passes on to the sick list I 
 
 Exactly so : to prevent his health from breaking down. 
 
 1362. Will you be good enough to explain a statement which I find in your 
 evidence taken before the Committee in 1850, in whicli you were asked by Sir 
 George Grey, " Is there not a discretion in the medical officer to incre;ise the 
 diet where tiie health of the prisoner is suffering from a low diet ; " and your 
 answer is stated to be this : " Yes, but that power can only be used where a 
 prisoner is suffering from disease. It is held by the magistrates that the medical 
 officer has no right to increase the diet of a prisoner unless he is positivtdy ill, 
 but a man may be so much reduced in strength by a low diet as to have the 
 seeds of disease laid in his system," and so on. Would that imply that in 1852 
 a diffei'ent practice prevailed from that which, according to your last answer, 
 exists now in your district r 
 
 It would imply this, that in 1850 the magistrates held that view very much 
 more generally than they do now. I am speaking of course of the practice in 
 my own district ; I have repeatedly had opportunities of conversing with magis- 
 trates on rny visits, and have explained to them that the surgeon is bound not 
 only to treat disease but to prevent it ; and therefore that when persons are 
 failing in health it is his duty to interfere if he thinks an extra diet necessary to 
 save them from disease or weakness. I believe that that opinion has very much 
 extended since the time that I gave that evidence. When I gave that evidence 
 it certainly was the custom generally to regard a surgeon as bound to wait for 
 symptoms of positive disease ; that was the more common view taken by the 
 magistrates, but now I do not think that that is the more coamion view ; I think 
 that a surgeon feels himself more unshackled than he did then. 
 
 1363. You would naturally attribute considerable influence to the admonitions 
 which you have delivered to the different surgeons in different prisons within 
 your district on this point ? 
 
 I have no doubt that they have had some effect. 
 
 ] 364. And that has contributed to alter the practice in this respect ? 
 I think so. 
 
 1365. Where the extra diets were previously issued in the case of disease only 
 they are now simply issued as anticipatory of disease ? 
 
 Yes ; and of course also in case of disease. 
 
 1 366. Lord Wockliou,ser\ Do you think that if a sufficient diet is prescribed, 
 there is any necessity for ^the surgeon exercismg such discretion as you have 
 alluded to in your last answer? 
 
 I think there will always be that necessity, unless a great excess of food is 
 given to the prisoners ; because men differ so much, not only in their appetites 
 for food, but also in the necessity that they are under for support, and in their 
 normal condition altogether, so that if a sufficient dietary were to be prescribed 
 for the whole prison to meet the requirements of those who want the most food, 
 it would be very far in excess of that required for the others ; and therefore a 
 very great expenditure would be incurred, which is now avoided, and also the 
 small feeding men would be over fed. 
 
 1367. Did I understand you rightly, that practically it is not found necessary 
 where a dietary which is sufficient is adopted, to order extra diet except on com- 
 paratively rare occasions ? 
 
 Yes ; i have said that is not done very often ; the number of exceptions to the 
 normal rule is so small that it is not necessary for the surgeon to interfere very 
 often. 
 
 1368. Do you not think that it would be very objectionable that the diet 
 should be such that exceptions should be frequent r 
 
 (37.4.") R 3 Certainly.
 
 134 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 /. G. Perry, Esq. Certainly. I may add, that there is a prison in this very town which is a 
 strong iUustration of that opinion ; I mean the prison of the city of London at 
 
 i2tli March 1863. Holloway ; when it was first opened, the city magistrates thought that the 
 dietary recommended hy the Secretary of State was too high, and they requested 
 that, as an experiment, they might be allowed to lower it ; that was tried lor 
 some time, and the great number of extra diets that were required made me 
 recommend that the dietary should be raised to the originally proposed standard, 
 by adding four ounces of bread to the diet of prisoners under long sentences ; 
 that was done, and since that time the number of exira diets has been reduced 
 almost to nothing. 
 
 1 369. E.arl Romney.^ With regard to the case of a man with a bad constitu- 
 tion, broken down by dissipated habits, and who has received a sentence of 
 six months for misconduct, coming into prison, is it the great business of 
 the autliorities to restore his constitution ; is the utmost care to be taken, 
 lest he should be injured by the treatment in prison, and the greatest pains 
 taken to restore his constitution, and to reform him ■: 
 
 I certainly would not send him out in a weak and feeble state, simply 
 because he had come in in that condition. 
 
 1370. It would be the business, in many cases, of the gaol authorities to 
 restore his constitution as far as lay in their power, would it ? 
 
 That would be incidental to his proper treatment. 
 
 1371. And therefore hard labour in many of those cases could not be 
 carried out r 
 
 iS'ot until a man's strength was somewhat restored. 
 
 1372. A great number of town prisoners are of very dilapidated constitutions, 
 ai'e they not. 
 
 Yes, very much so ; and vagrants also are very often very feeble. 
 
 1373. Earl Calhcurt.\ I find that in one prison in the Midland district they 
 give a great deal of ale to many of the prisoners. Do you conceive of cases 
 in which it may be necessary to give ale to large numbers of prisoners? 
 
 If beer wei-e required, they would naturally give ale in the country, rather 
 than porter, v\hich is given in London. 
 
 1374. Chairmcai .'] With regard to school instruction, in most pi-isons on the 
 separate system, provision is made, is it not, for school instruction ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 137,5. Is that school instruction generally carried out hy the chaplain, or by 
 a school instructor r 
 
 In the large prisons there is almost always a schoolmaster, and there are 
 several schoolmasters in some. In the smaller prisons there is seldom a 
 separate schoolmaster, but one of the warders instructs the prisoners, or the 
 chaplain or the governor does it ; but even in some large prisons they have no 
 schoolmaster ; tlae chaplain does the duty. 
 
 137(5. Is the system of instruction in its general outlines tolerably uniform? 
 
 Not precisely .-o ; in some prisons they confine the instruction to boys and to 
 young- persons, in others they extend it as far as possible to all. The amount 
 of instruction given depends very nnich upon the number of prisoners, because, 
 as only a certain time in the day is given up to in-truetidu, the larger the 
 number of prisoners the smaller will be the weekly amount of attention that 
 each will receive from the schoolmaster. 
 
 1377- W'henever instruction is given, is it given in classes, or is it ever con- 
 fined to ceUuiar means ofteatihing ? 
 
 It is frequently confined to instruction in the cells ; it is sometimes given in 
 classes, sometimes in the(;hapeis, and sometimes in the school-rooms, which are 
 occasionally subdivided so as to prevent tlie prisoners from seeing each other ; 
 but in other cases they arc not. 
 
 1375. Wlicn it is administered in classes, what is the average number consti- 
 tuting a class? 
 
 It would be impossible to state that. 
 
 ^37<^ Could )-ou state what is the maximum ? 
 
 I do not think I coulil with exactness. When the instruction is given in the 
 
 chapel
 
 * SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 135 
 
 chapel there is a very considerable number of prisoners at a time, perhaps as J. G. Perry, Esq. 
 
 many r.s 24 or 30 at a time, but where it is given in smaller rooms, of course 
 
 the prisoners are in smaller numbers, and in the cells they are single. ^*^'' March 1863. 
 
 1380. Is it not the case that very often a large number of prisoners, to the 
 extent of 24 or 30 as you have said, are all colli cted in a room for the purpose of 
 class instruction, with the chaplain or the schoolmaster to instruct them, and one 
 warder at the very outside to maintain order ? 
 
 I think that where so large u number were collected together they would have 
 more warders than one. 
 
 1381. Have you never known cases where that has been done ? 
 I have not seen any instances of it. 
 
 1382. Do you believe that the number of warders ever exceeds two in such 
 cases ? 
 
 I should think that they would seldom have more than two. Where the pri- 
 soners are instructed in the chapel, the seats of the warders are so placed as to 
 enable two persons to command a view of that small number of prisoners. 
 
 1383. Are you of opinion that one schoolmaster, who is employed in giving 
 instruction, and two warders who stand by, are able effectually to control the 
 prisoners, and to jirevent all communication passing between 20 or 30 pri- 
 soners ? 
 
 That would depend very much upon the construction of the room where they 
 are instructed. 
 
 1384. I am speaking now of a room in which they are upon benches wi'.hout 
 partitions ? 
 
 They seldom have such rooms in prisons upon the separate system ; it is 
 more common to instruct the prisoners in the chapels where they sit upon the 
 same seats that they occupy during the service. 
 
 1385. And where there are partitions ? 
 
 There may or may not be partitions ; partitions are very generally aban- 
 doned in the chapels. 
 
 1386. Are you in favour of the separation of prisoner from prisoner, by 
 means of partitions in the school-rooms ? 
 
 There may be no objection to it there, I think ; but in the chapels I think 
 that there is very great objection to it. 
 
 1387. Would you be good enough to state whether in the school-rooms you 
 see any objection to the separation of prisoner from prisoner by partition? 
 
 No, I do not. 
 
 538S. Do not you conceive that it would be rather an advantage than 
 otherwise ? 
 
 I think it would in the school-rooms. 
 
 1389. It would enable them to fix their attention more completely upon the 
 work which is in progress, would it not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1 390. Would it not also prevent communication from passing between 
 prisoner and prisoner ? 
 
 It would. 
 
 1301. Will you be good enough to state to the Committee, whether those 
 same advantages would not exist in the case of partitions in chapels as well as 
 in schdol-rooms ? 
 
 I think not. Originally, prison chapels were constructed in that manner ; 
 and the reason why that construction has been abandoned, and in many 
 instances actually taken away after it was put up, was, that the prisoners not 
 being able to see each other, were continually adopting other means of com- 
 munication, either by altering words in the service as sometimes happened, or 
 by scratching on the sides of the pews. Another objection was, that the 
 prisoners were apt to go to sleep during the service from the closeness of the 
 confinement in which they were ; and they had great facilities for doing so, by 
 
 (37. 4.) R 4 sinking
 
 136 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ./. G. Perry, Esq. Sinking down upon their seats, so that they could not be seen by the chaplain. 
 
 But the great objection was the constant attempts that were made by the 
 
 i2t!i March 1803. pj.jgoners to communicate or to recognise the voices of other prisoners. 
 
 1302. You stated just now that you conceived tliat there was an advantage 
 in having partitions in the school-room, inasmucli as it obliged the prisoner to 
 concentrate his attention more closel)' upon the schoolmaster, and conscjuenth^ 
 gave the schoolmaster a greater control over the prisoner for the time being ; 
 and also that it assisted in preventing communication passing between prisoner 
 and prisoner ; why would not the same advantages exist in the case of partitions 
 in chajjels r 
 
 Because in the school-rooms the men are constantly and positively employed 
 themselves ; whereas in the chapels, they are merely listeners to a service per- 
 formed by others ; and therefore they have much time on their hands in the 
 chapel to misapply in the way that 1 have mentioned, whereas they have no 
 inducement to do the same thing in the scliool-room, nor would it be possible 
 to do so without being seen by the schoolmaster. 
 
 1393. In wiiat manner are the prisoners constantly employed in the school- 
 room, except in the case of writing and arithmetic r 
 
 They are employed in reading, writing, cyphering, and so on. 
 
 ^ 394. One person only can read at a time, and whilst he is reading all the 
 others must be silent ? 
 
 But they are all much more under the eye of the schoolmaster than they are 
 in the chapels, because where the seats are partitioned in the schools the par- 
 titions rise from the ground, and are completely open in front, and the prisoner 
 has a table before him, so that he can be perfectly seen by the schoolmaster, and 
 it can be seen whether he is doing his work or is neglecting it ; but in the 
 chapels where they are completely inclosed, except as to part of their heads, 
 within the separate pews, it is very easy for them to sink down out of sight, and 
 while they are supposed to be listening to the service, to scratch upon the panels 
 messages to other prisoners ; I do not mean to say that that is of any import- 
 ance as a breach of discipline, but it takes off the attention of the prisoners 
 altogether from the service, and causes them to be continually thinking of the 
 other prisoners, and listening for them. 
 
 1395. But where is the mechanical difficulty in applying- the same form of 
 construction to a partition in the chapel, which you say is perfectly effective in 
 the case of the school-room ? 
 
 One difficulty would be the enormous size that the chapels would require to 
 be made. If every prisoner were placed in a partitioned sitting, with his whole 
 person visible, the chapel would not contain more than half the number, or not 
 so many as half the number it now contains, where the seats are arranged one 
 behind the other, and where it is only the head of a prisoner that appears 
 over the edge of the pew. 
 
 139G. Then, do your objections really resolve themselves merely into 
 mechanical ones ? 
 
 No, they do not ; the other objection will still remain, that the prisoners being 
 only passive dm'ingthe chapel service instead of being actively employed in the 
 school-room, woidd be more likely to be making use of their opportunities for 
 listening for other prisoners and communicating with them, than they would be 
 in the school, where such attempts are never made; they are much n;ore 
 interested thei-e, hecause they are themselves engaged in the operations that are 
 going on in the scliool-room. 
 
 1397. But will it not induce them equally to talk, whether there are separa- 
 tions, or whether there are not separations r 
 
 No; because where there are no separations they are so much more completely 
 under the observation of the officers, that they have not the same means of 
 communicating ; and also a still stronger reason is, that they can see each other, 
 and feci that they are in the society of each other, and they lose that restless 
 disposition which makes them continually listen for the voices of the other 
 prisoners. 
 
 13()8. Are you of opinion that in a prison chapel where there are no separa- 
 tions between prisoner and prisoner, communications fail to pass ? 
 
 I believe
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 13/ 
 
 I believe they do in all those that are well regulated and managed ; some J- G- ^erri/, Esq. 
 slight communication may pass, but no communication of the least importance , r. , gg 
 can be made. ^^__«__ 
 
 1399. Do you believe that during those parts of the ser\ice, vrhen the con- 
 gregation are speaking at the same time, no communications ever pass between 
 prisoner and prisoner? 
 
 I i\n not think that they do on the open benches, for the reasons that I have 
 mentioned. 
 
 1400. Would you be surprised if you were told that prisoners have repeatedly 
 applied to the governors of gaols to remove them to other places in the chapel 
 in order to avoid being offended by the exceedingly filthy conversation of their 
 companions ? 
 
 I have never heard of such instances, but I can conceive it to be possible. 
 But when I say that no communications of any importance can be made, I 
 mean that none of those communications which are said to take place in 
 prisons, and which lead to subsequent crime, could possibly take place between 
 them. I can quite conceive it to be possible, as your Lordship states, that the 
 prisoners may make use of obscene words to each other, which, in the case of 
 a well-conducted prisoner, would be very offensive to him, and might lead him 
 to ask to be removed to other parts of the chapel. 
 
 1401. You are aware that in some of the prison chapels singing is made 
 part of the service ? 
 
 It is. 
 
 • 1402. Are you not aware that by means of singing it is perfectly easy to hold 
 a very long conversation on any possible subject ? 
 
 Yes, it is ; and that is what I more particularly alluded to when I said that 
 communication is made by altering the words in the service ; but it is much 
 less likely to take place where the prisoners sit upon open benches, because the 
 warders have a better opportunity of observing them than they have in the 
 enclosed seats. 
 
 1403. Was it not perfectly possible, when there were partitions, for one or 
 two, or, if necessary, three warders to be placed upon a bridge above, so that 
 they could look down and see the motion of every single prisoner within the 
 partitions ? 
 
 Tliere are some prisons which have bridges above, but I do not believe 
 that the inspection from them is better than in those in which the warders are 
 placed in the usual manner. 
 
 1404. Is not the inspection, at all events, perfectly possible r 
 
 I am speaking now comparatively ; and I think that a better inspection may 
 be maintained where the warders are on a level with the prisoners, than where 
 they are placed on a bridge above them. 
 
 1405. Can you state what is the maximum time devoted to school instruction 
 to each individual prisoner, in the gaols witii which you are familiar ? 
 
 I think that it is very seldom more than an hour in the day for each person, 
 supposing the prisoners to be separately instructed ; but I would not say that 
 that was the maximum time. 
 
 1406. But where the prisoner is instructed in a class, how long would it be .' 
 Then, of course the time would be longer, supposing the schoolmaster to be 
 
 in the prison for a certain number of hours. 
 
 1407. Do you believe that a prisoner is ordinarily able to bear more than 
 three, or at the very outside four, hours' instruction ? 
 
 No, I do not think that they ever have so much given to them. I think 
 that in the earlier days of the Pentonville Prison, there may have been as 
 much ; but 1 do not think that is at all to be /ound in county gaols. 
 
 1408. Earl of Romnei/.] Has a prisoner sentenced to hard labour a right to 
 demand to be taken from that hard labour, in order to be instructed? 
 
 No, certainly not. 
 
 1409. It is a favour, is it not ? 
 
 It is generally accorded as a favour, 
 
 (37-4.) S 1410. Therefore,
 
 I3th March 1863. 
 
 138 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 /. G.Perry, Esq. 1410. Therefore, when at school, it would be his interest to behave himself 
 well ? 
 
 Yes, cei'tainly. 
 
 141 1. Would not that be the distinction between the chapel and the school, 
 that at the school he has an interest to behave well in order to get the privilege 
 of being taken off the treadwheel, supposing that is the hard labour used in the 
 ]n'ison, whereas chapel is part of the discipline which he is compelled to 
 undergo ? 
 
 That would be an additional reason, certainly. 
 
 1412. Therefore he would be more likely to behave better at school than at 
 chapel ? 
 
 Yes, practically that is so, certainly. 
 
 1413. Lo7d Steward.'] Is the practice, with regard to untried prisoners, uni- 
 form in the gaols in your district ? 
 
 No, it is not. 
 
 1414. Is there as much disparity with regard to them as there is with regard 
 to prisoners under sentence ? 
 
 Quite as much, I think. In some prisons they are offered employment, but 
 in others they are not. 
 
 1415. Do not you think it desirable that there should be some one uniform 
 practice established with respect to this matter ? 
 
 Yes ; decidedly so. 
 
 1416. Are there any particular improvements that you would suggest with 
 regard to the treatment of those untried prisoners ? 
 
 I think that in all cases some kind of industrial employment should be found 
 for them ; they very often suffer very much indeed from the want of it. 
 
 1417. It should be offered, but not enforced ? 
 Yes, it should be offered, but not enforced ; the law as it at present exists 
 
 requires that it should be so ; but it is not done in one prison in ten with any 
 regularity. 
 
 1418. Are you now speaking of county gaols or borough gaols? 
 Of both. Prisoners have frequently complained to me that they have not had 
 
 the option of employment. 
 
 1419. Earl of Romney.'] There are very few prisons, are there not, where 
 labour is offered to untried prisoners ? 
 
 It is very seldom indeed that it is offered with any regularity. 
 
 1420. It is very difficult to carry it out, is it not ? 
 No ; I have known them eagerly embrace the opportunity. 
 
 1421. But it is difficult, is it not, for the prison authorities to provide employ- 
 ment ? 
 
 In the present state of prisons, there are a great many where the prison 
 authorities do not provide labour or work for those who are convicted, and 
 therefore, of course, it would be an additional difficulty to provide it for the ■ 
 untried. 
 
 1422. And it is practically difficult, is it not, to fit up the prisons so as to 
 meet the wants of the various trades when the men come and ask for employ- 
 ment r 
 
 There is no doubt that it is so ; but there are some light employments which 
 can gemerally be found. It depends a good deal ujion the activity of the autho- 
 rities, I think, and upon the kinds of trade that are carried on in the neighbour- 
 hood. 
 
 1423. And the sort of people that are mostly confined there? 
 Yes. 
 
 1424. Duke of Marlhornngh.] Do you find that in the prisons in your 
 district a large number of boys are imprisoned ? 
 
 In some prisons there are a great many ; in London, for instance, there are 
 a great many ; but they are very mucli reduced in number by the operation of 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 139 
 
 the reformatory schools, — partly by crime being repressed by the schools, J. G. Perry, Esqi 
 
 but still more by the immense number of boys ayIio are in the reformatories, ^^^^^ March 1863. 
 
 and who would have been in prison over and over again if they had not been 
 
 there. 
 
 1425. Do the prisons in your district still contain boys in certain cases ? 
 Yes, they do. 
 
 1426. "What is the youngest age of a boy that you have known in prison ? 
 
 I have known a boy committed for trial at the sessions at six years old ; but 
 that, of course, would not be possible now ; that was in the early part of my 
 time, when one boy between six and seven, and the other of eight, brothers, 
 were committed for milking a cow on a common, the one sitting on the ground 
 and the other attempting to milk the cow into his mouth ; but that could not 
 happen at the present time. 
 
 1427. At present what is the age of the youngest boy in any prison with 
 which you are acquainted ? 
 
 I think eight is the lowest age. 
 
 1428. Should you say that there are a considerable number of boys in prison 
 in your district between the ages of eight and fifteen ? 
 
 Yes, a very great number. 
 
 1429. Are those boys who you think ought to be in reformatories ? 
 
 I think they ought ; but I think that a system of classification in the reforma- 
 tories ought to be introduced, or else, whilst there is much good done by the 
 reformatories, a good deal of mischief may also arise by mixing up compara- 
 tively untainted boys from the country with the worst vagabond boys of large 
 towns, by which association more harm will be done to the comparatively good 
 boys than good will arise to the others. 
 
 1430. So long as they are in prison under the separate system they are to a 
 certain extent kept separate and free from contamination ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1431. But I understand you to say, that when they enter the reformatory 
 they are immediately associated with other boys r 
 
 Yes, they are ; so that some boys who have been merely committed to the 
 reformatory for the purpose of taking them away from bad associates, they being 
 supposed to be very little tainted with crime, will for three or four years be asso- 
 ciated with some of the worst characters of the neighbouring town. 
 
 1432. Do you think that, in addition to the reformatory, a system could be 
 adopted of a prison for boys without its being necessary to send them to a 
 reformatory ? 
 
 1 think that the system might be very much improved in large prisons, but in 
 the smaller establishments the boys are continually mixed up with adults. 
 
 1433. In a prison conducted on the separate system, tlie boys might be 
 kept as separate as any other prisoners, might they not ? 
 
 Yes, they might ; but of course young boys can scarcely bear the separate 
 system for any time. 
 
 1434. I presume that the system of the reformatory was more for the purpose 
 of continuing the punishment for a longer duration than could have been the 
 case if a boy had been kept in prison, and with the view of adopting a system 
 of reformation during that time r 
 
 Yes ; and it was very well designed for that end. But it appears to me that 
 the value of reformatories would be very much increased if the boys that were 
 .sent to them were classified as they are in France. In France, when oifences 
 are proved against boys under 16 years of age, they are sent to the Maison 
 Centrale, where they remain for some time, until their characters have been 
 ascertained by the governor and the chaplain ; and according to the observa- 
 tions made by those officers, they are allotted to the different reformatories ; 
 so that in some there are boys who are taken away from their parents on 
 account of the vice of their parents, more than of their own. 
 
 (37-4.) s 2 1435. Is
 
 140 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. G. Perry, Esq. 1435- Is there any Suggestion that occurs to you with regard to boys at 
 
 th Alarcii 1861 P^*^^^"^ confined in gaols? 
 ^ ' I think that a great deal of pains is generally taken now by the authorities 
 
 in the gaols, especially by the chaplains, in the instruction of the boys that are 
 confined in them. Much more attention is bestowed upon them than upon 
 adults, and I do not see how it could be very much increased unless a separate 
 department were altogether allotted to the boys ; the number is now so small 
 in each gaol, that it is only in some of the very largest that that would be 
 practicable. In Cold Bath Fields prison, for instance, there is a separate divi- 
 sion altogether for the boys, and they are under very good management there ; 
 but boys of every character are associated together. 
 
 1436. Then your own observation in the inspection of prisons does not lead 
 you to ofler any suggestion as to the improvement in the system of management 
 of boys in gaols ? 
 
 I should hke to see them in industrial schools and reformatories ; but I should 
 like at the same time to see those alterations introduced which I have mentioned ; 
 and I say this not merely upon theoretical grounds, for I have seen instances 
 in which boys have been rather corrupted than otherwise, on account of the 
 indiscriminate association to which they are exposed when they are sent to 
 reformatories. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, 
 
 at One o'clock.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 141 
 
 Bie Martis, 17° Martii 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT: 
 
 Lord President. 
 Marquess of Salisburt. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 Earl of RoMNEY. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY. 
 Lord WODEHOUSE. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair. 
 
 Evidence on 
 Prison Discipline. 
 
 MAJOR WILLIAM FULFORD, r. a., is called in, and examined, Major W. Fulford, 
 
 as follows : 
 
 1437. Chairman.'] I believe you are the Governor of Stafford Gaol ? 
 Yes, of the Stafford County Prison. 
 
 1438. Will you be good enough to inform the Committee what the size of that 
 prison is ? 
 
 The numbers average about 650 prisoners. 
 
 1439. Including debtors ? 
 Yes, including all. 
 
 1440. Does that imply 6.50 cells? 
 
 No ; it is not all on the separate system at present. 
 
 1441. What is the proportion of cells which are certified by the inspector ? 
 There are 422 certified. 
 
 1442. What is the condition of the other cells? 
 
 One hundred and fourteen of the others are now about to be pulled do\vn to make 
 room for 320 separate cells, to be certified. 
 
 144'^. You are preparing, in fact, to make the prison separate throughout? 
 Yes.' 
 
 1444. Will you be good enough to tell the Committee what is the system 
 which is in force in Stafford gaol r 
 
 The separate system, as far as possible, and as far as we have the means of 
 carrying out hard labour for the convicts separately. 
 
 1445. What form of hard labour is in use ? 
 
 The treadwheel and the cranks are the modes of penal hard labour in use in the 
 gaol. 
 
 1446. I conclude that by the word " penal," you mean hard labour, as contra- 
 distinguished from trades ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1447. Will you state also what are the trade occupations which are in use in 
 your prison ? 
 
 The prisoners make all the clothing for the use of the prison ; the tailoring, the 
 ehoemaking, the repairs of the prison, and mat making. 
 
 (37.5.) s 3 1448. Are 
 
 R. A. 
 
 17th March 1863.
 
 ^■^2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major W.Fulford, 144S. Arc tliose trades carried on under the superintendence and directions of 
 «-A. tnide instructors r 
 
 I7t!i March 18G3. ^^^- 
 
 M49- What is the maximum time which is allotted to hard labour ? 
 Six liours and three quarters. 
 
 !4,50. Is that uniform for all the prisoners? 
 
 It ought to be ; but unfortunately we have not machinery sufficient to carry out 
 the system at present ; and one of the alterations in the prison now in prospect is 
 the addition of some wheel labour, sufficient for 200 men. 
 
 1451. Therefore, at present, a part of the prisoners in the gaol are without hard 
 labour ; 
 
 Without that species of labour; there are some emjjloyed in breaking stones, 
 and picking oakum, and so forth. 
 
 1452. Is the tread wheel applied to productive labour? 
 
 Yes ; one is employed in grinding wheat for the consumption of the prison, 
 and of tlie two lunatic asylums in tlie neighbourhood, and the other pumps the 
 Avater by a forcing ])ump over the building. 
 
 1453. Are the cranks of winch you spoke applied to productive work ? 
 
 They are not ; the cranks are unproductive, with the exception of eight, which 
 pump water. 
 
 1454. Have you ever had recourse to shot drill ? 
 Never. 
 
 1455. Do you enforce oakum picking? 
 Yes. 
 
 1456. Would you class oakum picking amongst the hard labour? 
 
 No, I should not ; it is disagreeable ; but I do not think that a good many of' 
 the prisoners care half so much about it as they do for the treadwheel labour; iu 
 fact, the latter is the only one that they do care about. 
 
 1457- Will you state to the Committee what is the form of the crank which is 
 in use r 
 
 The common hand crank, with a dial, which records the revolutions, and which 
 admits of the friction being increased or decreased, according to my order. 
 
 14.58. Is each cranic a separate machine by itself? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 14.59. -^J^*! ^^^^7 ^''6 not connected by one common shaft ? 
 
 Not a great number of them ; the pump cranks are all on one shaft. 
 
 1460. Have you from experience found any objection to the use of those 
 separate cranks? 
 
 Not the least. 
 
 1461. Lord S/eivard.] Do you proportion the requirements of the crank to the 
 special strength of the prisoner r 
 
 I did it more so at first ; but I found, after some little experience, that 10,000 
 revolutions of the crank, which is the number ibr a day's labour, made a very light 
 weigiit sufflcient to s^ive a man a day's work. Mv orders are that they shall only 
 do the work u\) to tlie meal, and then stop a little after they have had the meal, 
 in order that the day may be divided ; aud I have frequently found, when I go 
 round, that every one has finished his proper number of revolutions, and that the 
 befon; dinner work, which ought to take till a quarter to one, is done before 11. 
 But, taking one with another, it is a fair day's work, because the people who are 
 employed at the crank labour are those who are imprisoned for very short sentences ; 
 summary convicts, and they do not get much to cat. 
 
 1462. Still, is it not much easier to some than to others ? 
 
 Yes, no doubt; and you cannot name a punishment that is not. 
 
 1463. Earl of Dudley.'] Then you give a margin of two hours? 
 Yes. 
 
 1464. Lord
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 143 
 
 1464. Lord Steivard.] Is it not in your power to proportion the resistance so as Major IV. Fulford, 
 to increase or diminish the difficulty ? r. a. 
 
 Yes ; I only mean that as an ilhistration ; I could make it so irksome that the ' — ' 
 
 prisoner could hardly turn the crank with hoth hands. It is quite a matter of ^7t n March 18 63. 
 arrangement, but I make very little difference in the amount of resistance. 
 
 1465. Chairman.'] The regulation of each crank is confined to yourself, and is 
 not in the power of any warder, is it ? 
 
 No, it is confined to myself; I always test the crank ; it was originally thought 
 that it might be tested by a weight ; that the dropping of the handle would give 
 so many pounds, which was quite a mistake ; it did not do so. No doubt a weight 
 of seven pounds would droj) the handle, but it took a good deal more than seven 
 pounds to pull it up the other side. 
 
 1466. Lord Steivard.'] But you think that the prisoners do not dislike the crank 
 so much as they do the treadwheel ? 
 
 No. 
 
 1467. Earl of Dudley.'] There is compulsion in the case of the treadwheel, 
 whereas they can take their time over the crank ? 
 
 Yes, they can take their time over the crank, but they all must go on working 
 sX the treadwheel. 
 
 1468. In one word, the treadwheel is the only compulsory hard labour r 
 
 That is the only compulsory labour that I know of, or the only compulsory 
 labour that any prisoner cares about, which is a more important circumstance still. 
 There is not a day passes that I do not get, certainly a dozen, of different sorts of 
 applications for the men to be withdrawn from the wheel; either they have a pain 
 in their back, or they want to be put to a trade, or they think they have been long 
 enough on the wheel, or some excuse, either to me or the prison surgeon, if they 
 cannot come to me, to withdraw them from that labour. 
 
 1469. Chairman.] The Committee have been informed that in the opinion of 
 some prisoners the use of the crank and the treadwheel, especially when applied 
 to unproductive labour, has a tendency to degrade and to irritate ; is that your 
 opinion ? 
 
 I do not believe it one bit. 
 
 1470. Have you, in your experience as governor of a prison, had an opportunity 
 in any way of testing the truth of that opinion ? 
 
 There are a great number of prisoners, of course, that I have had to deal with, 
 and a great many of them have asked to be put to the one anti to the other. I 
 speak to a great many of them every day, and they have all sorts of excuses to 
 make to be withdrawn from the crank, but I never heard any prisoner hint 
 at that, and I do not believe that it ever entered one of their minds. 
 
 1471. Have you ever had any communications with any of the prisoners, 
 either in writing or verbally, on that particular point ? 
 
 No, I think not. 
 
 1472. You never asked any questions of the prisoners about it ? 
 
 No, I never should dream of asking them about it, and putting it into their 
 minds, because they would apply it instantly. 
 
 1473. Viscount Eversley.] Are those cranks put up in the cells of the prisoners, 
 or are they in separate buildings ? 
 
 They are in their own cells, with the exception of about seven or eight, which 
 are attached to the separate department in the certified part of the prison, and 
 they are in a shed, and to them are put such prisoners convicted at the assizes 
 and sessions as are ordered by the surgeon for a time, perhaps, to be taken off the 
 wheel, or who are cripples with wooden legs, and so forth, of whom I have a 
 large number sometimes. 
 
 1474. In the cases where those cranks are in the prisoners' cells do you find that 
 the ventilation is very much deteriorated r 
 
 That is the reason why we are building ; the part they are in has never been 
 certified, and the magistrates have now determined to pull down and rebuild the 
 whole thing upon the same plan as the other parts of the building. No doubt the 
 ■ventilation is not so good as it ought to be ; but I do not know that it has anything 
 
 (37. 5.) s 4 to
 
 144 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ■ Major W. Fulford, to do with the crank so mucli, as that the ventilation of the building is bad. Some 
 
 R. A. of the cells have not got cranks in them, but I do not see much diiierence ; the 
 
 , ~. ; o- ventilation is very bad all over the buildino-. 
 
 ■ 17th March 1863. •' ° 
 
 ■ 1475- Chairman.^ From your long experience as a governor, do you see any 
 
 practical objection to the use of those cranks ? 
 Not the least. 
 
 1476. But are the Committee to gather from your evidence that upon the 
 whole you consider the treadwheei the better punishment of the two, inasmuch 
 as it is less optional to the prisoner to evade it f 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1477. Loi-d Steicard.'] Would not the treadwheei be too severe for prisoners 
 who are not able-bodied ; and in that case would it not be necessary to have a 
 crank, or some other instrument to substitute for it ? 
 
 It is so occasionally ; some of the prisoners cannot work at it, but that is the 
 surgeon's business ; there are a few in all prisons who are not equal to treadwheei 
 labour. 
 
 1478. Can you dispense altogether with the crank ? 
 No. 
 
 1479. Earl of Dudley.] You would prefer to have a medium between compul- 
 sory hard labour and industrial occupation ? 
 
 Quite so. 
 
 1480. Chairman. ] You have stated that prisoners very often petition for indus- 
 trial occupation, in order to escape being put upon the wheel ; will you state 
 whether there are greater facilities in industrial occupations for the prisoners to 
 shirk their fair share of the work which is naturally imposed upon them ? 
 
 In making clothing, I am not a very good judge as to whether a man does a 
 fair day's work ; for instance, in making a pair of shoes, it must be remembered 
 that they are not skilled artizans, and that therefore the master tradesman is not 
 so good a judge as he would be of the work of 60 men in Stafford, where they 
 are all shoemakers, and very acute at the labour, so that it is difficult in that way 
 to a'^certain when they have done a proper day's work. But it is admitted by the 
 master shoemaker and the master tailor that they do not get the amount of work 
 out of a prisoner that they should in a fair day's work from a man out of doors. 
 
 1481. Taking, on the one hand, the six hours' labour on the treadwheei, and, 
 on the other hand, six hours' labour at industrial occupation, do you think that 
 the six hours of industrial occupation are a fair equivalent to the six hours at the 
 treadwheei ? 
 
 No, certainly not. 
 
 1482. Do you consider industrial occupation in itself to be a labour which is 
 adapted for the majority of prisoners in a gaol } 
 
 No, 1 do not ; and 1 have for many years been telling the justices of Stafford 
 that I do not think s^o. 
 
 1483. On what do you base that opinion? 
 
 That the prisoners do not care about it. In the case of the industrial occupa- 
 tion of a man who is not a master of his trade, we will say, the less he knows of 
 the business the more he is interested in the occupation, and the more he is 
 interested in the occupation the less he cares for being shut up in the cell ; con- 
 sequently time passes quickly and agreeably, and is no weight to him compared 
 to that which it is to a man who is all day on the wheel. 
 
 1484. Do you say that from what you would naturally believe to be the case, 
 or from your own experience of the jiractical working of the system in prisons? 
 
 It is my own experience; but I should have judged it if I had never seen a 
 prison. 
 
 1485. Do you consider that the industrial occupation in itself succeeds in a 
 pecuniary point of view ? 
 
 No. 
 
 1486. Earl of Dvdln/.] It does not pay its expenses, does it? 
 
 I do not think it docs, "ith the exception of grinding wheat, which pays its 
 way. We grind corn, and make bread for the prison, and for tlie county pauper 
 
 lunatic-
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 145 
 
 lunatic asvlum and for the subscription asylum just outside Stafford, and the profit Major W.Fulford^ 
 of the prison upon that is upwards of 500 /. or nearly 600 /. a year. But with "•^• 
 
 regard to all the rest of the work that we do, of course if the prison clothing j-fj, March i86''. 
 
 Avere made abroad instead of being made inside, it would apparently swell the 
 
 prison bills ; but any protitablo work for sale, such as mat making, and occasion- 
 ally other small matters, that we have for sale, barely covers the outlay on the raw 
 material when all is done ; because one reason is that the workmen are not 
 skilled artizans, and it takes some time to teach them, with rare exceptions. 
 
 1487. The things that are made in prison are very inferior ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1488. Shoes made in the prison are not so good as shoes made outside the 
 walls of the prison, and do not command the same sale? 
 
 Certainly not. 
 
 1489. Do you find that for all that is made in the Staftbrd gaol you get a 
 ready sale ? 
 
 Now we sell nothing but mats and matting and oakum ; we have a ready sale 
 for them ; there are no mats, I b(-licve, made so good as those which are made in 
 prisons, not only in our prison, but in others. 
 
 1490. The clothes and shoes are only for consumption within the prison ? 
 Yes, only for consumption within the prison ; and the prisoners also execute 
 
 the repairs of the clothing for the officers of the establishment. 
 
 1491. Marquess of Salisbury .'] By whom is the bread made in the prisons ? 
 By the prisoners ; we have a master baker and miller, and he has under him 
 
 six men, and they between them superintend the milling and the baking and the 
 ■whole business ; they bake about 60 sacks of flour a week. 
 
 149c. What class of prisoners are those men? 
 They are all convicts. 
 
 1493. You do not mean Government convicts ? 
 No, convicted prisoners. 
 
 1494. Lo7-d Steward.] Is that employment a substitute for hard labour? 
 Yes. 
 
 1495. In allotting them to that labour, have you reference to their aptitude 
 for that jiarticular employment, or to their general character and conduct ? 
 
 We generally pick out men who have a long time to serve, and powerful men ; 
 we must have both of those qualities. 
 
 1496. Earl of Dudley.'] Are you at all guided by the fact of whether he knows 
 anything of the business before ? 
 
 No ; we should set any of the men to work at it ; they are not all put on 
 together; we turn out one at a time ; and a man is always put out of the mill, 
 or whatever employment we may give him of an industrial character in my prison, 
 three months before he is discharged, so that he may go out with the influence of 
 three months of treadwheel knowledge upon him. 
 
 M97- Does it never happen that your prison arrangements are thrown out of 
 working order by the fact that you do not get a man w^ho is capable of being a 
 master baker ? 
 
 No, because the master baker is a paid officer, not a convict ; he is a superior 
 man. 
 
 1498. Is he like the instructors in trades, and so on ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1499. Chairman.'] Are the Committee to understand that you employ the 
 short sentenced prisoners under any circumstances in industrial occupations "? 
 
 As seldom as possible. 
 
 ijOo. At what period of the sentence does the industrial occupation com- 
 mence 1 
 
 If a man were sentenced for a year, for instance, I should keep him to Iiard 
 labour, certainly, for three months. 
 
 (37.5.) T i.-^oi. During-
 
 146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mujcr W. Fulford, 1,501. During those three montlis wnnld you, under your present system, be 
 
 ''•^" able to give Iiim six hours laliour a day ? 
 
 17th March 1863. No, not quite; the prisoners who are convicted with hard labour, are not all 
 
 capable, from some physical cause, of carrying out a full day's work, even if 1 could 
 
 manage it, and some cannot do it at all. 
 
 1502. Lord Steward.] With regard to the excuses wliich you say prisoners 
 frequently make with a view to avoid the punishment of the treadwheel, are you 
 able, generally, to distinguish between bo)utJkle excuses, and mere pretexts ? 
 
 Generally ; sometimes they are very clever, but I do not think now that they 
 often get excused. 
 
 1503. Can you, or the surgeon, generally distinguish between excuses and 
 pretexts ? 
 
 \'es', 1 almost flatter myself that I know more about it than the surgeon. 
 
 1504. Have you frequently found any injurious consequences arise from the 
 employment of the treadwheel, such as rupture r 
 
 No, never ; once or twice men have slipped off and bruised themselves, but the 
 wheel is instantly stopped ; we have never had a fracture of a limb since I have 
 been there. 
 
 1505. And no increase of any affection of the heart? 
 No, not that I know of; I never heard of such a thing. 
 
 1506. Chairman.] Is the man examined previously to his being put upon the 
 wheel ? 
 
 Yes, every man is examined and reported by the surgeon as fit or unfit for the 
 wheel. 
 
 i,-,07. If there was any suspicion of the man being in an unfit state of health, 
 he would be taken off, would he not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1.508. Earl Cathcart.] How many feet of ascent do you require in a day ? 
 
 1 scarcely know ; I believe it is 57 steps in a minute ; the steps are 10 inclies 
 wide. 
 
 I 509. But you are a^^ are, are you not, that the ascent is limited to 2,000 feet ? 
 In my prison it is within my limit, but I consider it is quite fast enough. 
 
 1.510. Marquess of Salisbury.'] You give 6 i hours to each prisoner for a day's 
 work, do you not } 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1 .51 1 . What becomes of the prisoner during the remainder of ihe day ? 
 
 The day is divided into three periods : before breakfast, between breakfiist and 
 dinner, and between dinner and supper; the prisoner comes off of course for his 
 breakfast and his dinner, and when he comes off from his labour after diiuier, he 
 is locked up. 
 
 1.512. Then, in fact he has, you may call it, seven hours' work and five hours' 
 rest r 
 
 He may rest all the remainder of the time if he likes. 
 
 1513. Therefore he is off work five hours out of the twelve ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 I 514. The remainder of the time I suppose he is shut up in a cell ? 
 Yes. 
 
 i.Si:")- With regard to the treadwheel, does the number of prisoners who are 
 upon the wheel at a time, make any ditl'ereuce ? 
 The w'heel only holds so many at a time. 
 
 1 .5 1 6. Have you ever foinid yourself short of that number ? 
 Never. 
 
 1.517. Have you, in case you should be short of the number, any means of 
 regulating it. 
 
 The efFect would not be to give the prisoners any more trouble. I should not 
 have so much poucr upon the stones for the grinding of the wheat. That would 
 
 be
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 147 
 
 be tlio only difference. It Avould not give the prisoners more labour, I mean to Majcr W.Fnl/nrd, 
 sav tljat one man would not be able to turn the Aviicel ; but, 10 men being off r- a. 
 
 out oC 48, "ould produce no effect at all uj)on the labour. The treadwheel ~ ' 
 
 labour is merely going- nps.tairs ; there is no physical weight upon the foot. The ^* 
 
 stair drop? from under the prisoner. 
 
 1518. It has been stated that it is a very painful position, from the man having 
 to hang upon the treadwheel. Have you ever found that to be the case ? 
 
 A man wlio is first |)ut on the wheel is awkward at it for a day or two ; but I do 
 not think tiiat tiiey fee! it so much afterwards. Of course the labour acts differently 
 v\ith dirterent people; it is much less trouble and much less exertion, say, to a 
 hodman, or to a man who has been employed in going up a ladder, than it would 
 be at first to a tailor or ;i collier who lias been sitting crouched up in a small hole 
 in a coal-pit ; but, when they get once into the swing of the thing, wliich they do 
 in a day or two, they have no further trouble about it. 
 
 1,319. Then you have not observed that the ])osition in which the prisoners are 
 placed, as vas slated by one of the witnesses before this Committee, causes a 
 strain upon their muscles, which is likely to be very injurious to them ? 
 
 1 do not think so, unless the chain be too long to which they are attached. 
 If a man hangs back too far it would be so ; but, if he stands up to his work, if 
 he is jierpendicular, and the chain is a short one, I do not see why it should affect 
 him at all. I never heard the thing questioned for a moment. 
 
 i;,20. Earl of Z)Mf//t7/.] As a rule, you do not find amongst the greater number 
 of prisoners, that any inconvenience arises from the use of the treadwheel? 
 Not the least. 
 
 1521. Marquess of Salisbaru.^ Do you approve of separation upon the 
 ■wheel ? 
 
 Yes ; all my prisoners are separated. 
 
 152.'. Do you think that that is advantageous.'^ 
 I tliink so. 
 
 1523. They are off the wheel every other quarter of an hour, are they not ? 
 In my prison they are on sixteen minutes, and off eight. 
 
 1 524. L)u;ing the time that they are off, is the same separation enforced ? 
 
 They are still in rheir separate stalls Each stall is about the breadth of this 
 table, 1 should think, and it reaches out behind the man ; and there is a small 
 seat conveniently placed for the purpose ; and when the machinery rino-^ the bell, 
 which notes his turn to drop off, he sinks on to his seat, and he cannot see 
 anyl)ody. 
 
 1,52.5. Earl of D«c/e.] Do you think that shot drill could be advantageously 
 introduced into county priscms r 
 
 It was lirouglit into the military service after I left it, and I have never seen 
 it at all. It is very irksome, no doubt. 
 
 1526. Loi'd Steward.] Have you ever had occasion to employ any mo de of 
 punishment to compel prisoners to go upon the treadwheel ? Have they ever 
 refused to do so ? 
 
 Sometimes ; not very often. Occasionally a man turns rusty, and will not go 
 on ; but the stoppage of a meal (a supi)er generally) is sufficient to make them 
 go on. In thirteen years there may have been three cases of that sort, perhaps. 
 I think we had one man flogged for it, but he went up the next day, and he never 
 dropped off agiiin. 
 
 l.')27- Chairmmi.'] What is your opinion with regard to corporal punishment 
 for pri-on offences ? 
 
 I do not think I could manage my prison without it; it is very seldom resorted 
 to; but it is an incomparable punishment, no doubt. 
 
 1528. Have you uniformly found it effective? 
 
 Always, but in one solitary instance, about 12 years ago, soon after I came to 
 the prison, and that man is in prison now. He was a boatman, a young man 
 about '20, and he was put to tlic crank labour, and he would not do it ; and so I 
 punished him up to the limit of my power. I gave him three davs in the dark 
 
 (37.5.) t2 ' cell,
 
 148 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major V,\F„lford, Cell, and still he said he would not work ; and, notwithstanding all I could say to 
 
 "• '^- liiin, he would not. So I took him before the justices, and they gave him "two 
 
 ijth March 1863. '^"zen lashes, and then he was sent back to work, and lie would not ; they gave 
 
 ' li'Qi four dozen, and he would not work then, and by tliat time his time Avas up. 
 
 He was out, I should think, six months, and then he came back again; but the 
 next time he came in he wori<ed, and he has worked every time since, and lie has 
 been in a dozen times since that. 
 
 1529. Is that the one single exception of a man receiving two floggings during 
 the whole course of your experience as governor of the gaol ? 
 
 No ; we had a man Hogged the week before last, the second time ; really there 
 was no escape from flogging him, but I was sorry for him. He was a man of 
 excessively bad temjier, and he had made use of the most horribly insubordinate 
 language, and the most gross and filthy language he could think of, and I reported 
 him to the justices, who ordered him to have a dozen lashes, and he told me it 
 was quite enough, he should never offend any more ; but, unfortunately, we had 
 an oflicer who was a very weak man, and, on one of the frosty mornings wlien this 
 prisoner was at exercise, he had his hands in his pockets, and, for some reason or 
 other, the officer pecked and pecked at him so long till he raised his ire again ; he 
 was continually telling him that he would bring him to me, and he wouhrgct I do 
 not know what punishment ; and the end of it was, the prisoner knocked him 
 down, Mliich I was not much surprised at. However, the magistrates said they 
 could not permit such conduct, and they ordered the man two dozen lashes ; that 
 is the only other instance that I can call to mind. 
 
 ■•530. Earl Cathcart,~\ How do they conduct the punishment of flogging in 
 prison ? 
 
 The man is tied u]) as in a military flogging, and I parade the whole of the pri- 
 soners, and read the j)rocecdings from the magistrates' minute book, and he is 
 flogged in the presence of all the prisoners and the surgeon. 
 
 1531. Do you employ one man or two men to flog r 
 Only one. 
 
 1532. Is it anything like equal to the punishment which is given in the army? 
 1 should say it is a good deal worse than any flogging I ever saw in the army. 
 
 1533. Do the first 12 lashes break the skin ? 
 
 I do not know that they break the skin, but they are spread out so much more. 
 A drummer in the army is drilled to put the whole of the 25 lashes into one little 
 spot, but an unskilled artist does not ever hit in the same place ; and therefore, 
 although he may not break the skin, it is the first lashes that smart, not the last. 
 
 1534. Are you aware whether in the army the first 12 lashes cut the skin ? 
 Yes ; but they are all put in the same place. 
 
 1.S35- Is the man marked in prison by flogging so as to identify him a year or 
 two afterwards ? 
 
 Sometimes the flogging leaves a mark, I believe, but I am told not always. I 
 do not know whether it is so or not, I have never seen a man's back afterwards. 
 
 153G- Do men, when they are flogged, show any signs of feeling; do they cry 
 out at all r 
 
 This last one that I spoke of was the most hard-skinned fellow I ever saw in 
 my life ; his hands were tied up, but he did not even shut his eyes or change colour 
 at all ; but in general they make a tremendous outcry. 
 
 1 537- Chairman.'] There are some classes of ]irisoners, are there not, with whom 
 it would be al)soIutely impossible to carry on the discipline of the prison if it were 
 not for the terror of corporal punishment ? 
 
 No doubt it is so ; it is the only thing that they dread. 
 
 1538. Do you believe, as a matter of opinion, that if corporal punishment 
 were applied in certain cases of re-convictions, it v\ould produce a very salutary 
 effect ? 
 
 I think so. 
 
 1,539. Earl C(ilhcart.'\ You are aware from 3'our military experience, are you 
 not, that the men frequently are flogged over and over again in the army ? 
 
 Not very frequently ; perhaps there may be one man in a regiment or less who 
 
 would
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 149 
 
 would be flogged over again, but I do not think that many people get flogged Major W.Fulford, 
 twice in the army. ^- ■*• 
 
 1540. Chairman.'] At wliat o'clock are the prisoners locked up ? 17th Marcli 1863. 
 The lights are put out at eight o'clock. 
 
 1541. And at what o'clock do they rise in the morning? 
 
 At a quarter before six when it is light enough, and six when it is not ; just 
 now they have begun to rise at a quarter before six. 
 
 1542. Therefore they are in darkness for very nearly ten hours ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1 .543. Are you of opinion that those ten hours are necessary ? 
 Not necessary for a man's rest, I think ; but I do not see how it could be 
 well altered. 
 
 1544. Are the cells liglited with gas? 
 
 Yes ; at one time it was suggested that we ought to keep them up for educa- 
 tional purposes, and so forth, to a later hour, and that it was a waste of time, and 
 therefore for about a month, I think, I tried it, and kept the cells lighted till half- 
 past nine, and I went round myself and examined the cells through the inspection 
 holes at various periods during that time, and I found that there were not above 
 three prisoners who were not aslee[) at nine o'clock. They were ordered not to 
 go to bed, but they all had their heads down upon the tables, and were asleep 
 
 t) 
 
 notwithstanding. 
 
 »• 
 
 1545. Are you aware of the resolution of the House of Commons in 1850, 
 which limited the number of hours of sleep to eight? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1 546. In your opinion, would eight hours be sufficient ? 
 Yes, quite. 
 
 1,547. Are there not evils which result in a prison from allowing too great a 
 continuance of sleep ? 
 
 It is a waste of life certainly, but I do not know that there is any great evil 
 beyond what attaches to that. I am not aware of any absolute evil. 
 
 1548. On what do the prisoners sleep ? 
 In hammocks. 
 
 1549. Do they all sleep in hammocks ? 
 
 On the summary side of the prison there are a certain number of wooden 
 guard-beds as it were, such as they have in military guard-rooms, to wiiich 
 prisoners are sent on re-conviction for poaching or vagranc}', and such like 
 offences, for any time not more than three months. 
 
 ] 550. Do you allow a mattress with those guard-beds ? 
 
 No. 
 
 1.551. Do the prisoners sleep on the boards? 
 
 Yes, they sleep on the boards ; they have a blanket and rug. 
 
 1552. Have you ever become aware of any injurious consequences to the men's 
 iiealth from that practice ? 
 Not the least. 
 
 1553- Would there be any difficulty in applying that system for more than 
 three months ? 
 
 I do not know; we have never -done so for a longer period, but the men go 
 out as well as the others. I have never observed any difference ; they are always 
 complaining, of course. 
 
 1 554. Do you weigh the prisoners on their entrance and discharge? 
 Yes. 
 
 1555. Have you found, as a general rule, that prisoners lose weight? 
 No, they have rather increased. 
 
 1556. Earl oi Dudley.'] What is the division of the day; has each prisoner so 
 much work, and so much teaching, and so much industrial occupation, or how is 
 it managed? 
 
 (_37. 5.) T 3 Those
 
 150 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major W. Fulford, Those prisoners who are in their ells are taught or spoken to by the chaplain, 
 
 ""^' when he thinks fit, at any hour of the day ; the industrial teaching goes on all 
 
 ijtli March 18G3. day; those who are eni])loyed in their cells get their exercise in tlie yards twice 
 
 a-day, otherwise they are in their cells all the day, supposed to be at their w ork, 
 
 whatever it is. 
 
 1557. Are those prisoners who are cnijiloyed in hard labour at the tread- 
 wheel and the crank, not employed at all in industrial occujjation ? 
 No. 
 
 1558- Do those who are doing hard labour receive any education ? 
 
 From six till seven in the evening the schoolmaster and some of the warders 
 are emplo\ed in an adult class, and twice a week a certain number, some of whom 
 apply for it themselves, and some are suggested by the chajjlain, attend on the 
 schoolmaster in the school-room, but not many. 
 
 1559- They are not separately instructed, are they ? 
 
 No, they are in the school-ioom together, but under surceiilance tlie whole 
 time; there are two officers watching them. 
 
 1,560. If they are recommended by the chajilain, they are all allowed to go 
 into a class with the schoolmaster, it being much easier to teach a number in a 
 class than individually r 
 
 Yes, I suj)pose so. 
 
 1561. Does any man who comes in for, as you say, over six months, get an 
 op]»ortuuity of learning? 
 
 If he wishes it ; it is not compulsory. 
 
 1562. Do you find, as a rule, that many refuse ? 
 
 There are some few who learn very readily, but I should say that there are 
 more who do not, 
 
 i."i63. Then are the Committee to understand this : that there are a great many 
 Iirisoners who come into your gaol, who ])erform the labour that they are obliged 
 to do, and will do nothing else ; that is to say, they will not volunteer to learn r 
 
 They will not volunteer to learn ; all those uho can read arc suj)plied with books 
 of instruction in their cells. 
 
 1,564. Just take that class who only perform the wheel-labour which is put 
 upon them ; when that is done their day is done, is it not ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1565. Have they the treadwheel Avith a ceitain amount of time for their meals, 
 and an airing besides? 
 
 i\o, the wheel counts as their airing. 
 
 1.566. And their day is done with when they finish their work on the wlieel ? 
 Yes, and then, as a general rule, they go to sleep. 
 
 1.567. You were asked whether you did not think that so many hours in a cell 
 alone was productive of evil ; I think that cjuestion bore upon a particular evil, as 
 to whether so many hours in the cell alone led to anything in the gaol that would 
 be prejudicial to the health of the prisoners ^ 
 
 Not to my knowledge in any way ; at least I am not aware of it. 
 
 i,'i6S. With regard to the class wlio are engaged in hard labour, when their 
 work is done you simply send them to their cells, and there they lie till the 
 morning ? 
 
 That class of people who arc totally ignorant, and whose minds are void, as it 
 were, can sleep a much larger number of hours than persons of education can do. 
 
 1.569. Thsn we come to the chiss who are industrially occupied ; how many 
 liours do they have of industrial occupation, and how many hours of airing? 
 
 Tliey ought to have two hours a day of airing, and in a general way, barring 
 the climate, they have that amount. 
 
 1.570. Lord Sktvaid.] "When the weather is bad, how do you manage ? 
 
 Then tliey do not go out ; if it is a very bad, downright ])()uring day, we should 
 not send them out ; but if it were a little drizzly, and so forth, they would go out. 
 
 1571. Earl
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 151 
 
 1571 . Earl of Dudley.] How many hours of industrial work have tliey ? Major W. Fulford, 
 
 The tailors and shoemakers are supposed to work much later tliau the others, R- a. 
 
 and they do s-o ; their tools and things are such that they can work bv "aslifht 
 
 and they work till half-past six. .' » - & ' 17th Marcl. 1863. 
 
 1,57-?. How many hours have the others? 
 
 The others leave off at a quarter before five, and then they have their sni)per, 
 which is supposed to take lialf an hour in getting, and arranging- and one thing 
 and another, but it really takes about an hoar or more. 
 
 1.573- ^c>'<J Stcwarcl.l Is not the instruction in classes a little inconsistent with 
 the separate system ? 
 
 Precisely so, as we arc doing now ; only that instead of 'me watcher, as it may 
 be, there are several oiikers, one to every three or four, perhaps, m-Iio is 
 assisting in tlie teaching. 
 
 I, ',74. Do you think that any inconvenience arises from that r 
 Not the least. 
 
 1575. Does no communication take place ? 
 I think not. 
 
 1576. Chairman.] V.hat is tlie proportion which you would allot of officers to 
 men whilst they are receiving class instruction ? 
 
 Perhaps from 10 to 20 men would have four officers. Some of the [irisoners 
 read very badly, and colliers and such like people could not get on at all if there 
 were not a large proportion of officers there. Some of them are very intent upon 
 receiving instruction. Those who do wish to learn, learn wonderfully rapidly. 
 
 1577. Do you conceive that when a class consists of from 25 to 30 men, and 
 there is one oHicer at the outside, two olticers in the room assisting the school- 
 n:aster, either that the men themselves can gain very much information in the 
 long nm, or that it is possible to prevent communications passing between one and 
 the other ? 
 
 I do not think that they could begin at the beginning, ;ind learn up anythino- 
 very much, but I think that comnnuiication is prevented by ilie system tliat we 
 adopt. 
 
 1.57s. Earl of 7?ow;n(??/.] ilay all prisoners who are sentenced to hard labour 
 demand to be taken to the schoolmaster r 
 
 No, I sujjpose not ; there is no settled rule about it ; practically thev do not ; 
 a good many would not be allowed to be taught; men who ;:re conductino- them- 
 selves ill in the prison, or v,ho are r.'-convicted, and so forth ; but the chaplain 
 arranges that matter; I do not interfere M'ith it at all. 
 
 1.579. ^^ affords a very good opportunity, does it not, for a man's pretending that 
 he wanted to be taught, in order to evade the hard labour? 
 
 They are taught twice a week in the school, and I dare say it may be used as a 
 pretext, but the Act of Parliament says that the cliaplain shall have the men at 
 such hours as he thinks necessary, whether it takes tliem from their hard labour 
 or not ; therefore, I have no voice in the matter. 
 
 1580. Chairman.] Since the system of instruction has been in force in your 
 prison, have you noticed any increase in the general intelligence or educational 
 cajiacity of the prisoners t 
 
 No, I think not. The chaplain's return, I think, does not vary much annually 
 with regard 10 the astounding ignorance of the great bulk of them. 
 
 1.581. Do you find that those who are recommitted remember the instructions 
 with tolerable accuracy which they have received in prison ? 
 
 Prisoners who mean to learn, for instance, adults of the class of small trades- 
 men, either masons or carpenters, or something of that sort, who go in and find 
 it hard to learn, I do not think ever come back again, and a man who in three 
 months will learn to read and write, and do it fairly, as I have known many of 
 them do, does not mean to comeback, he is doing it for a purpose. 
 
 •5S2. Lord President.] Have yon observed from what class you get the 
 greatest number of reconvictions; whether from the animal stupid class, ov from 
 those who show an anxiety for instruction ? 
 
 With regard to juveniles, of whom we have a great many in Staffordshire, there 
 (.37. 3.) T 4 are
 
 152 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major i\ . Fiilford, ^re a great, many who have learned entirely to read and write in the prison, and 
 '_' they are almost certain to come back again. 
 
 ]7'li Miircli ib(j3. 1 583. More so than those who have not learned to read and write in prison r 
 Yes, they are the sharpest of tlie lot. 
 
 1584. Marquess of Saltsbury.'] You do not believe in their reformation ? 
 
 No, I am sorry to say that it does not show up very well in that respect, but 
 rather the contrary. A little boy is brouglit in for stealing a loaf, or a cake, or a 
 knife, or some small offence, and he is sent to prison for 21 days, we will say. J 
 have had them really so small and so tender that I have been obliged to put them 
 in the female hospital to play with the kitten ; that is an absolute fact. Most of 
 those little wretches either have a ste])father or a stepmother, and they lead tlie 
 life of dogs at home ; and the effect of their coming into prison, where they are 
 fed, and housed, and clothed, and treated gently i#, that they have lost the dread 
 of a prison, and they have o'ained the swagger of a prison bird, and they come 
 back again. If those little boys were whipped at the police ortice, instead of 
 being sent to jirison, it would make a material difference in the number of our 
 prisoners. 
 
 1585. Earl of Dudlet/.^ As a rule have you not been relieved of those boys by 
 tlieir being sent to reformatories ? 
 
 We have decreased a little, but a very little, in the average number of our 
 Juveniles since the reformatory system began. 
 
 1586. You still have juveniles sent to you, have you not ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1587. Earl Calhcart.~\ Is it not the case that reformatories will not take small 
 boys until a second conviction r 
 
 It is a very difficult case to manage, because some reformatories will not take 
 them unless they are very bad boys, and other reformatories will not take them if 
 they are b;id boys ; some will not take a boy under a certain age, and others 
 will not take him over a certain age, and the effect of the two systems is that 
 the justices in the country are rather puzzled as to whether they shall send any 
 particular boy to a reformatory, because they do not know whether they will 
 receive him or not. 
 
 1588. Is it not the case that when boys are put into prison the first night they 
 cry very much r 
 
 1 have had several cases of that sort ; for instance, the case which I mentioned 
 of the little boy with the kitten, and I have had three or four boys in whose 
 cases we have been obliged to light their gas, and leave the door of their cells 
 open by night ; but it is astonishing what hard lives most of them have led before 
 they come into prison, and consequently they do not care much about it in any 
 way. 
 
 158Q. Chainjifiii.'] During your ex[)erience as governor of a gaol, have you 
 ever known a case of prisoners returning to the gaol by their own contri- 
 vance? 
 
 Yes, I think that prisoners from workhouses frequently commit some offence in 
 the workhouse in order that they may come l)ack to prison ; the prisoners have 
 told me so many times. 
 
 1590. Is that in consequence of the system pursued in the workhouse, both in 
 point of diet and of general comfort being very inferior to that which they receive 
 when in prison ? 
 
 The prisoners themselves tell me that the whole system in the workhouse is 
 much less comfortahle than that of our jirison, and some years ago, by order of the 
 visitin"- justices, I made a comiiarisoii between some eight or nine of the neigh- 
 bouring Union workhouses to Staflord and the Stafford gaol, and I found that our 
 weight^'of diet per week was greater than any one of them. 
 
 1591. Lord WodeJioii.se.'] Is it not found that i'emale prisoners more often 
 come back from the m orkhouse to the prison than male prisoners ? 
 
 I do not know that it is more the case with them than with the others. Female 
 ])risoncrs elect to be confined in child-birth in the jirison in preference to the 
 workhouse ; they would always come if they could. 
 
 1592. Earl
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 153 
 
 1592. Earl of Ducllaj.'] Do you mean that they commit an offence in order tliat Major W.Fulford, 
 
 they may be sent from the union to'prison ? n. a. 
 
 Yes, I have one now in my custody wlio has been committed upwards of . ,"; ; .^ 
 ^,„ ,. J J I 17th March 18G5. 
 70 tunes. ' ^ 
 
 1593. Chairman.^ Would you be good enough to put in a table of the dietary 
 of your gaol ? 
 
 Yes (delivering in the same). (Vide Appendix.) 
 
 1.59:^. Is that dietary framed on the Government rules ? 
 
 I believe there is some very trifling variety in it, but I am not sure whether 
 there is or is not. 
 
 1595. Will you state to the Committee how often, under the last class, the pri- 
 soners receive meat ? 
 
 Class :") receive, on Sundays, Tncsdavs. Thursdays and Saturdays, four ounces of 
 cooked meat without bone, and soup on the oiher three days. 
 
 1596. Consequently meat, in one shape or other, is given every day ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1597. As a mere practical question, and not receiving it in any scientific light, 
 is that, in your opinion, enough, or is it too much ? 
 
 1 think it is too much. 
 
 1598. Do you believe that it might be reduced without injury to the prisoners? 
 I think so ; I am not sure that it is too much for prisoners who are confined for 
 
 two years or a long term of that sort, but up to a year I am convinced that it is 
 more tlian is necessary. 
 
 1599. You therefore think that the ordinary classification which allows this 
 substantial diet at the close of four or five months' imprisonment commences too 
 soon r 
 
 If the imprisonment is only to last a year I think it does, but if it is to go 
 on for 18 months or two years I do not think it does. 
 
 1600. Would it not therefore be wiser to have another break in the diet at the 
 close of the first 12 months? 
 
 Yes, if it is considered advisable to have such long imprisonments in the county 
 prisons ; but it seems to me that if the imprisonments were shorter, and the whole 
 discipline severer, it would be better and more deterrent. 
 
 1601. Speaking generally, do you consider the diet which is allowed in all 
 prisons is in excess of the diet that they would receive in the workhouse ? 
 
 Yes, in the case of the higher classes of diet, not in the first and second classes. 
 
 1 602. Earl of Romnfij.'\ At Stafford there is a break at the end of three months, 
 is there not, in Class 4 ? 
 
 Class 3 is for one calendar month, and not longer than three mouths ; Class 4 
 is for terms exceeding three calendar months, and not more than four months. 
 
 1603. That is the difference between the regulation at StaflTord and that sug- 
 gested by the Secretary of State ? 
 
 Yes ; that was arranged by the justices and Mr. Perry when he was the inspector 
 of the Stafford district. 
 
 1604. Chairman.] Therefore I think the Committee are to collect that in 
 point of diet, and in point of bedding, and in point of the general comfort of the 
 cell, the prisoners enjoy advantages in prison which they do not receive when they 
 are in the workhouse ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1605. And consequently there is a disposition on the part of many who are in 
 workhouses to commit workhouse offences in order to gain admittance to prison. 
 
 Yes, certainly. 
 
 1606. Earl Cathcart.] You arc speaking of some particular workhouse, are you 
 not, and not of workhouses generally ? 
 
 No ; I am not speaking of any workhouse in particular. The workhouses that 
 I am sjicaking of were seven or eight unions. Stoke, and the various unions in 
 the neighbourhood all round the prison, were the ones that were tested. 
 
 (37.5.) U 1607. Chairman.]
 
 154 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 3Iqjor W.Tulford, 1607. C/iuiriiiaii.'] You are speaking- of those unions which are withiu the 
 
 ^'^' county, and which, in fact, in that sense would be said to feed the prison? 
 
 jjlh March 1863. Q^^'i^e so. 
 
 ibiiS. Can you supply the Committee with information as to the number and 
 amount of recommittals r 
 
 Yes. I can do so for the last year. In IS62 there were 622 prisoners tried at 
 the Sessions and Assizes, of whom 180 were either acquitted, or the bills against 
 them were thrown out by the grand juries. Therefore, there were 442 who were 
 convii ted, 39 of whom had served various terms of penal servitude. It appears 
 that 77 of the 442 had been once before in prison, 42 had been twice, 22 had 
 been three times, 21 had been four times, 5 had been five times, 9 had been 
 six times, 13 had been seven times, 9 had been eight times, 1 had been nine 
 times, 3 had been ten times, 1 had been fonrteen times, and 1 had been 
 twenty-three times, so far as we know of our own dealings with them. They 
 might have been in other prisons besides. 
 
 1609. Marquess of S^/l/sbury.] Does that include summary convictions? 
 Yes, for all sorts of offences. 
 
 1(^10. Chairman. '\ May the recommittals for 1862 be accepted as a fair average 
 of the recommittals in each year ? 
 Yes, I think so. 
 
 1611. Are you of opinion that that amount of recommittals is necessary under 
 any system ? 
 
 No, I should think not. That brings in the very point that we have been 
 tali<ing of. In the case of a great many of those who were committed and recom- 
 mitted again and again, probably those that had been in the longest time began 
 when they were nine years old, and they never should have begun at all. That 
 is one point. Then, if the others had been more seriously dealt w ith, on a former 
 occasion, jtrobably some of them would not have come back. 
 
 1612. Tlierefore the Committee may infer that the system, Avhatever it is at 
 present, is not so deterring as it might be ? 
 
 I think so. 
 
 1613. Are you of opinion that there are ceitain classes of offenders upon 
 whom the whole machinery of moral reformation, as it is termed, is practically 
 thrown away. 
 
 Yes, certainly. 
 
 1614. Are you of opinion that moral instruction has any weight with the class 
 of receivers ot stolen goods ? 
 
 None whatever. 
 
 1615. Do you believe that it has any influence over men Avho are trained and 
 halutual thieves ? 
 
 No. 
 
 1616. Are you of opinion that it has any influence over those who are recon- 
 victed more than twice ? 
 
 Nc. 
 
 1617. Therefore in all those cases, you would wish to substitute a more 
 deterring element in your system than mere moral instruction 1 
 
 Yes, quite so. There is one other class that I do not think are at all deterred, 
 namely, coiners antl jiassers of bad money. I remember one case of a «hoIe 
 family" who were sent to me, a man and his wife and some other member of the 
 family, to undergo imprisonment; and actually their iricnds brought them base 
 coin "at the door of the prison, and they did not get .')00 yards from the door, 
 before they were caught again for passing it, and they had not been out of prison 
 half an hour. 
 
 i6i S. Do you believe that the apjdiances of moral reformation have any effect 
 upon tlie class of vagrants ? 
 
 No, I think not. 1 consider that in a great many cases with the class of 
 va"Tants, the prison is a mode of resting in their passage from place to place, 
 more convenient and agreeable than the workhouse. 
 
 i6iq. Would
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. J 55 
 
 10 I q. Would it therefore be vour opinion tlmt with those classes it would be Major W.Fulford, 
 better to make the discipline more penal and more sliarji, and more irksome than ^■■*' 
 
 it is at present, and to reserve the moral reformation for the longer sentenced j-jj^ March 1863. 
 
 prisoners, and prisoners of altoji^ether a different class? 
 
 I do not know what the other classes are. 
 
 1620. Are there any classes to whom the system of moral reformation, as it is 
 at present applied, is valuable ? 
 
 Very few indeed, I am afraid. I was going to say not 1 in 500, but T consider 
 the moial element in the s\stem to be nil. A man has come in once for some 
 offence ; say a farm labourer who has got drunk at a fair, and has got into some 
 trouble through a case of drunkenness, or something of that sort ; or a domestic 
 servant who pilfers from her mistress from some little want of money at the 
 moment to buy some finery, or some accident of that sort, comes into prison once, 
 and the chaplain talks to them of course, and they go to church every day, and 
 all that kind of thing; and no doubt they are comforted and supported by what 
 the chaplain says ; but 1 do not believe they would ever come back if there was 
 no chaplain ; they are accidental offenders, and are of a totally different class from 
 thieves or vagrants, and all other classes of criiuinals. They come to prison 
 because it is the accident of their life, just as in the case of a man hunting who 
 breaks his collar-bone ; lie does not like it, but it is the accident of his life, and it 
 is the accident of their lives, and a very disagreeable one to come to gaol, and 
 they go through it as quietly as possible, and get over it ; and it is to some of 
 them a real rest ; their lives are most exciting, and they require a certain rest, 
 and they do not care about it 
 
 1621. Have you ever been able to follow, by means of inquiries, any of those 
 prisoners who have made great professions of reformation whikst in ];rison? 
 
 Yes, I did so once, and a very great failure it was. Lord Hathertou and the 
 Bishop of Lichfield once gave me 10 I. to lay out as I thought best among 
 prisoners who 1 thought might be benefited by it after they had left us, it' they 
 were in want of any little assistance to set them goin"-. And, first of all, 1 was 
 not to have anything to do with the chaplain in the matter; it was a stipulation 
 that I was to do it without any reference to him. I took a great deal of trouble 
 about it. In the case of one man whom I had known somethitig of before, he 
 was employed at a [joulterer's shop at Staftord, and he had gone away, and got into 
 trouble at a tish shop at the other end of the county, and had embezzled his 
 master's fish money. However, he was very penitent, and he had a wife, and if I 
 would set him up he said he should do very well indeed, and that he coukl earn 
 7 5. or 8 s. a day as a dresser of poultry at a great shop at Manchester. So 1 took 
 some little bother about it, and wrote to people at Manchester, and got him a 
 place at this shop, and paid his fare over, and got him a suit of clothes, but 
 within a fortnight he walked away with a whole basket of poultry. That was my 
 first case ; and I had not one out of 12 or 14 that did me the slightest credit. 
 
 1622. Lord Presi(h'nt.'\ Do you think that you could make any prison disci- 
 pline suflrciently deterring to prevent that class of people from committing* those 
 crimes ? 
 
 Not in all cases ; but there are a great many of them who lead a life of luxury 
 and sensual indulgence who are more sensitive to suff"ering than persons of a 
 higher class ; they cannot bear suffering as I could, or as any of your Lordships 
 could, and they would not bear it. 
 
 1623. Earl of Dudley ?\ Is it not a matter of calculation Mith them what pun- 
 ishment they will get for certain ofiences r 
 
 Yes, they know that to a nicety almost, and they know exactly the judge who 
 is to try them, and the judges' characters are discussed by them, and they know 
 that some are more gentle than others ; and it is the same with regard to the chair- 
 men and assistant chairmen of sessions; they prefer being tried by one rather 
 than another. 
 
 iG-'4. Lord Steward?^ They could hardly know, when they commit an offence, 
 who is to be the judge that will try them ? 
 
 No, but they could tell the sort of sentence ; and in the case of offences tried at 
 sessions they know the judge who is going to try them. 
 
 1625. Earl of i2o;««c^.] One of the great evils attending the present system is 
 that you give them long sentences, and then are obliged to feed tliem well ? 
 
 (37. 5.) u 2 Yes,
 
 156 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 • 
 
 Major W. Ful/onl, Yes, we nve obliged to let down the whole disci])line in the case of long 
 
 R.A. sentences. If I were to carrj^ out strict discipline ; if I had the means of giving 
 
 _ . ~ — • every man who is sentenced to hard labour in Staftbrd pi'ison the full amount of 
 
 i- tn . arc 11 3. jjj^^jpjjj^g ^],a,t I am empowered to do by Act of Parliament, for two years, no man 
 
 alive could bear it : it would kill the strongest man in England. 
 
 1626. Without going to tlie full term in the case of prisoners who are in for 
 more than twelve months and are subjected to tlie jirisDU diet, the comparison as 
 between gaols and workhouses is in favour of the gaols? 
 
 Yes ; and nt)t only that, but I think it is of great importance that the discipline 
 should never be relaxed ; that he sliould go out with it stinging hot. 
 
 1627. You think that if a mode of punishment were devised with shorter terms 
 of imprisonment you might give a lower diet? 
 
 Yes ; it is not that the treadwheel labour is hard work, but it is the monotony 
 and irksomeness of it which renders it punitive. 1 dare say the prisoners in the 
 Government prisons, allhough I have never seen one of them, do a longer and 
 harder day's work ihan they do in mine ; but there is a variety in the labour, and 
 they are out of doors too, which makes it much less irksome. 
 
 1628. Do not you think that if, instead of sending men in for six months, they 
 were sent in for three weeks or six weeks, with a low diet, such as you might give 
 in that case, with a whipping once or twice, that would be much more deterring 
 than ihe present system 1 
 
 I am sure it would ; that really v.ould be deterring. 
 
 1629. 'i'herefore it would get rid of the great difficulty with regard to feeding 
 them too well as compared to persons in their own position in life out of doors, 
 and it would also save a great deal of expense, would it not, in having so many 
 I^ersons in juison ? 
 
 Yes, I think so. 
 
 1630. Ear] of Diidlci/.] How long should a sentence of that description last ? 
 Three months ; you could keep a man upon a very short diet for three months, 
 
 because I do not hold that it is absolutely necessary that you should send a man 
 out witli his muscles and his weight precisely the same as when he came in. He 
 has committed an oH'ence for which he is to be punished, and punished throughout. 
 Of course he should not be sent out of prison to faint in the road, or anything of 
 that sort ; but 1 think it is a mistaken notion that he should be fed, and sent out 
 in the open air every day with the doctor, and petted up ; and if he says lie 
 cannot eat his dinner to-day, that he is to be weighed, and have a pint of milk 
 given him. I look upon all that as nonsense. I would say, let him go without. 
 
 1631. Marquess of Sa/isbtirij.] Is that done in your prison ? 
 
 I do not know tliat that is absolutely done, but the diet is varied at the im- 
 soner's request very often. 
 
 1632. Earl of Ducic] Do you think that a much severer discipline would lead 
 to desperate attempts to resist caj)ture ? 
 
 I tliink not. 
 
 1633. Earl Cdthcarl.~\ But if you turn a man out in a weak state, how is he to 
 earn his livelihood ? 
 
 I would not do that ; I am not talking of real downright weakness. 
 
 1634. Earl of Malmeshury.'] Do you find thorn very much depressed, and that 
 tliey lose much vital power when they first come in, from any cause ? 
 
 Some fcw.of tliem do, but as a rule they do not. They almost all sink a little 
 in weight, say between 2 lbs. and 3 lbs., but that we look for. 
 
 1635. Is it not the case that most of them are addicted to drinking and accus- 
 tomed to stimulating liquors before they come in ? 
 
 A great many oi them are. 
 
 1636. Has not the sudden stoppage of stinuilants an effect upon the spirits, 
 animal and physical, at first ? 
 
 It has a certain efiect, l)ut not much ; on an average they drop about 2 lbs. or 
 8 lbs. in weight, not more than that, and they soon pick it up again. 
 
 1637. That
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 157 
 
 1637. That depression does not last long? Major W.Fulf'ord, 
 No, except in some exceptional cases. "• ^• 
 
 1638. Earl of iiojHnc!/.] It may be only getting into condition ? 17th March 18O3, 
 It may be so. In Staflordshire they live perhaps higher than in any county in ~^ 
 
 England out of doors. Wages are so high in the " black country " in the southern 
 division nf Staffordshire, that they indulge in the most luxurious living ; and the 
 enormous quantities of meat and strong drink that the colliers and iron people are 
 able to consume is wonderful. 
 
 'y^i^). Lord Steward.^ Are the prisoners separated in the chapel of the Stafford 
 gaol r 
 
 No, not at all. 
 
 1640. Do you think it is desirable that they should be sejmrated ? 
 
 No, I do not think it desirable that they should ; Ave have rarely a com- 
 ])laint ; the chapel is as open as any church tan possibly be ; they are all open 
 sittings. 
 
 1641. Do you think that tliey never communicate? 
 
 Occasionally a man may nod to his neighbour, or something of that sort, 
 but beyond that there is very seldom any communication, the punishment being 
 that they shall not come to chapel, and it is such a boon to a fellow who is locked 
 up in his cell, at any rate all Sunday alone, that it acts very powerfully to pre- 
 vent their talking. I believe from what I have seen in one or two of the London 
 prisons, where they have divisions in the chapel, and from what I have heard the 
 officers of the prisons say, that it is much more easy to communicate in them than 
 it is with us. We have ofKcers all over the building cross-firing at them, and they 
 cannot communicate. 
 
 1642. Earl of 'Dudley.~\ What do you think of the Government inspection of 
 gaols, do you consider it bona jide ? 
 
 Yes, 1 think so. 
 
 ] 643. Has the inspector any real power ? 
 
 I do not think I can answer that question ; but the inspector has suggested 
 several improvements to the visiting justices of the Stafford gaol. 
 
 1644. If the justices please, do they not set his recommendations entirely at 
 nought ? 
 
 They sometimes please to take no notice of them at all. 
 
 164=1. Do not \ou know other cases where they take no notice at all of the 
 recommendations of the inspector, and uliere therefore the inspection is of no 
 actual avail ? 
 
 I have heard the inspector himself say so ; in fact it is so stated in their own 
 annual rejjorts, that they go to prisons and find that things which they have sug- 
 gested have not been done. 
 
 1646. If I understand rightly, you generally take your orders from the visiting 
 justices and from the quarter sessions ? 
 
 Yes, they are my masters. 
 
 1647. You do not consider yourself bound to carry out any suggestion of the 
 Government inspector ? 
 
 No, I have nothing to do with him. 
 
 1648. Earl of Alalmesbury.'l Does that answer ajipily to the Secretary of State's 
 suggestions ? 
 
 The Secretary of State communicates witli the visiting justices, and occasionally 
 with me, but any proposed alteration of the system, or anytiiing of that kind, always 
 comes to the visiting justices. 
 
 1649. ^"t the Secretary of State does communicate with you sometimes, does 
 he net ? 
 
 Yes, but never on those matters, only on some detailed matters. 
 
 1650. Marcjuess of ;Sa/w'iMrj/.] He communicates with you, does he not, in 
 cases of petitions? 
 
 Yes, and in matters relating to the sickness of a juisoner, and so forth. 
 
 (37. 5.) u 3 1 65 \ . Lord
 
 158 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major IF. Fulford, i6',i. Lord Wodekoiise.] Do you think that it would be desirable that more 
 "•*• power slioiild be given to the Home Secretary with respect to the management 
 
 17th March 1863. of prisons? 
 
 I do not see that he has any power now. 
 
 16,52. Do you think that it would be desirable that some power should be given 
 to him ? 
 
 Yes, I do. I think that all prisons ought to be regulated, managed and governed 
 jirecisely alike, which is not the case at present. 
 
 1653. Chairman.^ Supposing that you could obtain that uniformity by Act of 
 Parliament, would not that answer your purpose just as well as by placing the 
 power in the hands of the Secretary of State? 
 
 It comes to the same thing ; the Secretary of State's order is equivalent to an 
 Act of Parliament ; any order that emanates from the Secretary of State is by Act 
 of Parliament binding on the visiting justices. 
 
 16.54. But are you of opinion that it would be an advantage that the Secretary 
 of State should interpose in the administration of prisons in lieu of visiting- 
 justices or the quarter sessions ? 
 
 No, I should think not. 
 
 16.55. Lord Pi'cside)il.~\ With regard to your former answer, do you consider 
 that the order of the Secretary of State is binding .' 
 
 Yes, I think it is ; I think you will certainly find in the Prison Act that any 
 order made by the Secretary of State shall be considered binding. 
 
 1656. Marquess of ^wZ/sSm/-^.] There is no penalty for an infracticm of the 
 order ? 
 
 No ; but the Secretary of State has power to make rules for the management of 
 o-aols under the last Prison Act. 
 
 16,57. Lord President.'] 1 think you will find that the pouer that he possesses 
 is to certify anv bye-law or rule, and also with regard to the construction of a new 
 prison, or the alteration of a prison, that must be approved of by him; but I do 
 not think that he can issue any order which the justices are bound to obey ? 
 
 The Act of Parliament says that he may approve of, alter or make additional 
 prison rules: " It shall be lawful for such Secretary of State, if he shall think fit, 
 to alter such rules, or to make additional rules ; and he shall grant a certificate 
 that such rules, as submitted to him, so altered or added to, are proper to be 
 observed and enforced." There is no penalty whatever. 
 
 16,5s. Earl Cathcart.] Is there great difficulty experienced in getting at the 
 criminal history of a prisoner M'hen it is necessary to do so for a conviction ? 
 
 Not often, I think. Most prisoners are remarkably simide in letting out their 
 foregone arrangements, either among3t their fellows or the officers or somebody. 
 I do not think there is much difficulty on that score. 
 
 16,59. You had four cases of insanity in the year 18G2, two females and two 
 males ; is not tliat in excess of the ordinary number ? 
 Pei-haps it is more than the average. 
 
 1 660. ^Vere there any ])eculiar circumstances connected with those cases ? 
 Yes ; they were ail of them insane when they were admitted. 
 
 1661. Lord President.] Do the police visit the prison in Stafford in order to 
 make tliemselves accpiainted with the faces of the prisoners ? 
 
 Tliey do come in frequtrntly, and I always allow them to go round the prison ; 
 but they arc not admitted to see more prisoners than accidentally cnne in their 
 way. 
 
 1662. Chairman.] You stated, did you not, that in many cases there was no 
 disinclination, on tlie part of many classes, to return to tiie prison ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 166,3. Are you aware whether, in the opinion of the prisoners, as a distinction is 
 drawn 'between the workhouse and the prison, so any further distinction is drawn 
 between a county prison and a Government convict establishment ? 
 
 Yes ;
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 159 
 
 Yes ; there is a very great distinction drawn between a county prison and a Major W. Ful/ord, 
 Government prison; a Ciovernment prison is infinitely preferred to a county ^■^- 
 
 prison, I believe, all over England ; certain!}- in my neighbourhood I should say so. i, lu h 86 
 
 1 664. As persons in the workhouse often desire to escape from the workhouse 
 
 into the prison, so a man sentenced to a county prison would desire to pass into 
 
 a Government prison r 
 
 I have had many prisoners who have been sentenced to 18 months' hard labour 
 in the county prii^on, who have expressed themselves to me as very much dis- 
 aj)pointed and unhappy that they did not get three years' penal servitude ; because 
 the arrangements of the labour, and so forth, I suppose, are much more agreeable 
 to tliem ; I have had several who iiave been sentenced for a less term, who would 
 rather have had three years' imprisonment. 
 
 1 66r,. Is it not a matter of fact, that with the generality of offenders, two 
 years' imprisonment is considered a much more severe sentence than three years' 
 penal servitude ? 
 
 Yes, a great deal. ' 
 
 1666. Does the number of prisoners in your gaol increase during the winter 
 quarter ? 
 
 No, it is just the reverse ; there are always fewer prisoners on Christmas-day 
 than on any other day in the year. 
 
 16O7. Is there any other information which you desire to give the Committee, 
 on any point which has been raised before them ? 
 
 I think that there are several ways in which prisons might be reduced in number ; 
 I do not know whether that is the business of the Committee at present ; but I 
 mean with regard to the supply of prisoners. 
 
 1665. The Committee would be glad of any suggestion that would bear upon 
 prison discipline in any shape r 
 
 There are a great many prisoners who are committed to my prison, both men 
 and women, for petty assaults, mo«;t of them very trifling indeed, and most of them 
 from towns; they rush to the policemen while they are hot, and by the time they 
 have caught the oflenders they are sorry for it ; but the policeman does not let 
 them go very often, and they are taken before a magistrate, and then the process 
 goes on, and they are found guilty of having committed some very small assault, 
 and they are fined and imprisoned, or imprisoned without a fine, and to find 
 sureties; either they have to pay some very trifling fine, or they are imprisoned 
 for a short time, say, 14 days or three weeks, and then they have to find sureties 
 for six months, which is frequently a very difficult thing to do ; very often they 
 have not got a friend in the world who will become bound for them, and the end 
 of it is, that these ])0or wretches whose whole offence is wrangling over a smoothing 
 iron, or a piece of washed linen over the side of a hedge, or some trifling matter 
 of that sort, are constantly taken away from their families for months, sutieriug for 
 an offence that really did not originally amount to 10 minutes' worth of imprison- 
 ment, in my idea. 
 
 i6t)(). Are you prepared to suggest to tlie Committee any remedy that would 
 meet the difficulty to which you have just referred ? 
 
 I do not know of any other way of doing it, except by making whatever 
 punisliment is given, certain. If a prisoner is sent to prison for tliree weeks, let 
 him be imprisoned for three weeks, but not for three weeks and to find sureties 
 for six months. However, it is a difficult question to answer, because assaults 
 vary so much in degree. 
 
 1670. Marquess of Salisbvry.'\ Has it ever occurred to you that we should 
 obtain more uniformity of punishment, if, after a certain period of confinement in 
 a gaol, a prisoner should be removed to a Government prison something inter- 
 mediate between a convict prison and a gaol ; might not that be desirable for all 
 j)artios r 
 
 It would be very agreeable for the prisoner ; he would like it. Any change, 
 I ajiprehend, would be agreeable to him, unless he were sent to Leicester. I 
 believe that no prisoner in England would like to go there if he could help it. 
 
 1C71. Lord President^ Is that on account of the prison, or of the discipline 
 there r 
 
 (37. 5.) u 4 I icfer
 
 160 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major W.Fulfvrd, I refer to the Government convicts. We occasionally send them from our 
 R. A. prison to Leicester. I sent some the other day, and one man told me that it was 
 
 hell upon earth. 
 
 17th March 1863. 
 
 1672. Earl o^ Dudley. ^^ It comes to this, does it not, that if there were severer 
 punishment all over the country, there would be greater hesitation about com- 
 mittino- offences ? 
 
 I think so. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 WILLIAM MUSSOiN^, Esq., is called in, and examined as follows : 
 
 W.Muiion Esq ^673. Chairman.'] YOU are the Governor of Leicester Gaol, are you not? 
 I am. 
 
 1674. l^'or how many years have you held that office ? 
 
 I have been governor 20 years ; but I have been connected with the prison 
 under my father, 40 years. 
 
 1675. Would you be good enough to state what the number of cells are in the 
 Leicester Gaol, which have been certified by the Secretary of State? 
 
 We have 212 cells that have been certified, and we have others that we use 
 which have not been certified. 
 
 J 676. Practically, the prisoners live in those cells, being taken out simply for 
 purposes of hard labour and instruction by the chaplain ? 
 
 Yes, they live in their cells, and are taken out for exercise, for employment, 
 and for instruction by the chaplain ; but those who are upon the crank labour are 
 not taken out of the cells for labour, the cells being provided with cranks ; there 
 are 33 cranks fixed in the different cells. 
 
 1677. Do those 212 cells include those which are rented by the Government? 
 A greater portion of them do. Of those 212, we are now letting 140 to the 
 Government. 
 
 167S. So that somewhat less than 100 certified cells are at tlie disposal of the 
 county for county purposes ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1679. Will you state to the Committee what the system is that you adopt 
 with respect to hard labour ? 
 
 Every prisoner sentenced to hard labour, not being a Government convict, is 
 placed upon what ueterm the crank ; he is there called upon to perform a certain 
 number of revolutions per day ; he commences upon eight hours a day, one hour 
 being devoted to another kind of labour of a lighter description. After a period 
 ■which is set forth in a printed form in his cell, his labour is reduced to seven 
 hours, six hours, and so forth, depending altogether upon the length of his sentence. 
 Some work nearly the whole time ; a short sentenced prisoner will work the whole 
 time; a man scntinccd to 21 days hard labour, would work 12 days upon the 
 crank ; a man sentenced to one month would work 18 days, and a man sentenced 
 to six weeks would work 24 days, and so on. 
 
 1680. The princiiile being that the earlier stages of imprisonment should be 
 severer than tlie later ones. 
 
 Precisely so. 
 
 1681. Does every prisoner, whether he be a long sentenced prisoner or a short 
 sentenced prisoner. ])ass through those earlier severer stages ? 
 
 Yes, he does, unless he is excused by the surgeon. 
 
 1 AS'i. Is it part of your system that, in the event of misconduct or misbehaviour, 
 of any sort, the prisoner should ever be put back to the earlier stages ? 
 
 He is not put back as a prison jmnishment, but there is a condition attached, 
 that if he misconducts iiimself after having been put to hard labour, he renders 
 himself liable to be sent back to it again. 1 have here with me a notice which is 
 alwavs put up in the cells. 
 
 1683. Would
 
 SELECT COMBliriEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 161 
 
 1683. M onld you be good enough to hand that in r W. Mutson,Esq. 
 
 Yes (delivering in the same. Vide Appendix). 
 
 1684. Do yon practically enforce that condition r 
 
 I cannot say ihat we do practically enforce that condition, for this reason, that 
 we really h.ave not cranks sufficient. We are very glad to put men to other 
 trades, so as to make way for those who succeed them at the cranks, because we 
 have only .'^3 cranks in the prison. 
 
 i()85. At present, mechanically, you have not sufficient hard labour for the 
 prisoners r 
 
 MLcluinieallv we have not sufficient to carry out crank labour altogether. 
 
 1686. Does tlie tread-wheel form jiart of your hard labour system? 
 It does not. 
 
 1687. Have you industrial occupations for the prisoners ? 
 ^'es. 
 
 5688. At what [)eriod in the sentence does the industrial occupation take 
 place ? 
 
 it commences at once. 
 
 1689. And is it concurrent Mith the hard labour of the crank? 
 Yes. 
 
 1690. \Vith regard to the crank, would you be good enough to state how 
 many revolutions in a day a prisoner is required to effect ? 
 
 When he commences, he has 14,400 revolutions per day to work, that is to say, 
 1800 revolutions per hour. I am speaking now of adults. The juveniles have 
 12,000 revolutions per day to perform, or 1,500 revolutions per hour. 
 
 1691. Is it in the power of a prisoner to effect those revolutions either in a 
 shorter or longer time, in proportion as he may work well or badly ? 
 
 Of course, in some measure it v^ould depend upon the industry and willing- 
 ness of a man ; but, as a rule, it takes him the whole time. 
 
 1692. The cranks which you have mentioned I understand to be what were 
 commonlv known by the name of the cellular hard labour crank? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1693. They are not cranks connected with each other by means of a shaft? 
 They are not. 
 
 1694. Consequently, with these cranks there is an impossibility to shirk or 
 to avoid the foir share of work ? 
 
 Yes, quite so. 
 
 1695. ,\ re those cranks erected in tlie cells? 
 
 The handle is placed in the cell. The crank itself is in the corridor. 
 
 1696. Is the index which registers the number of revolutions within the sight 
 of the j)risoner ? 
 
 No 
 
 1697. Have you ever found that the absence of the index, and the knowledge 
 of how the work was progressing, has dispirited the man in the work } 
 
 No. 
 
 1698. Do you not conceive that there is an objection to the index being out of 
 the cell ? 
 
 1 ratljer prefer it ; I think it occupies their minds very frequently to check 
 their work ; I always encourage the men to keep an account themselves of their 
 number of revolutions, and many will use a slate for that purpose. 
 
 1699. Have they any difficulty in testing their own calculation by reference to 
 the index outside the door? 
 
 They never see the index, but they can aluays keep an account of their revo- 
 lutions themselves within the cell. 
 
 1700. Is there a large difference between the ni.en's calculations in general and 
 the index ; 
 
 (37. 5.) X It 
 
 17th March i86j.
 
 162 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 JV. Musson, Esq, it is very rarely indeed that a man disputes the number, even when reported 
 for idleness. 
 
 17th March 1863^ 
 
 1701. Have you not found that there is an objection to the cellular crank on 
 account of the vitiated atmosphere of the cell, owing to the limited space within 
 which the prisoner works? 
 
 During the summer months it used to be warmer than I have approved of, but 
 latterlv 1 have had ventilators introduced into the windows, which have made very 
 o-reat difference, so that there is external air admitted as well as air through the 
 ventilating apparatus. 
 
 1702. Do you prefer, as a matter of opinion, the cellular crank to the crank 
 which is united by a common shaft ? 
 
 Yes, very much. 
 
 1703. On the ground that there is no opportunity for shirking the work ? 
 Precisely so. 
 
 1704. Are those cranks applied to unproductive labour ? 
 They are unproductive labour. 
 
 170.5. It lias been stated to the Committee that one effect of unproductive 
 labour, is to create either very great depression or great irritation and degradation 
 of mind in the prisoners, are you of that opinion ? 
 
 I have not of late years felt that curiosity about prison discipline which 1 used 
 to do formerly, but some years ago it was my practice to ask every man on his 
 discharo-e from prison, when he was dressed and brought into my office to be dis- 
 charo-ed, what had been the effect upon his mind, and in no one instance have I 
 ever met with a man who could say that he had been irritated by tlie work of the 
 crank ; tliey felt it to be hard labour, and that they admitted. 
 
 1 706. The Committee understand that in that way hundreds must have passed 
 under your notice .' 
 
 Yes, I should say hundreds ; I had a roll of pajiers with me which 1 produced 
 on a former occasion, when there was a very unpleasant inquiry, but since then 
 1 have !iivcn up taking any notice of the matter ; it is now some years since, but 
 up to that period I can very safely assure the Committee that in no one instance 
 did I fiu'l such a result ; but on the contrary, I believe that the great bulk of the 
 men quite ridiculed the idea, and I may also say that there was a large i)roportion 
 to whom I put tlic question, who stated that it had never entered into their minds 
 to think whether it was productive or not. 
 
 1707. In your opinion, is there any preference on the part of the prisoners for 
 one mode of employment over another ? 
 
 Yes ; the industrial employment, of course, they would prefer to the crank 
 labour, as being less severe. 
 
 170S. Would the diminution of severity be the main cause of their preference.' 
 Yes; but I think also that such work as matting and mat-making is more 
 interesting to the mind. 
 
 1 709. Would it not also be more easy for a prisoner to slight his fair amount 
 of work in industrial occupations? 
 
 It is impossible to measure the amount of work they could do. 
 
 ) 7 ! 0. Practically it must be labour by time rather than labour by piece ? 
 Just so. 
 
 1711. Do you think that industrial occupation, taken as a whole i)iece, pays? 
 
 Yes; we are very particular in our accounts; we keep a debtor and creditor 
 account of everything the prisoners do, and we make a balance-sheet out every 
 quarter, that is four times a year ; I have before me our clear profits of 18.52 ; 
 I must except the cost of oflicers, and the trade instructors' and the storekeeper's 
 salary ; they are not included in my account of the profits, 
 
 171 -2. If it included every indirect expense which is connected with indu.strial 
 occupation, would thire be a profit ? 
 We should then have a small profit. 
 
 1713. Is the prisoner's food charged? 
 
 No ;
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 163 
 
 >»o; tin's is simply a debtor and creditor account of trade, the account of all 
 our receipts and all our expenditure ; the fact is, we do no work even for the 
 county that Ave do not charge for ; we make our prison clothes and shoes ; 
 those are passed into store, and are, upon the order of the visiting magistrates, 
 passed out of store for the use of the prisoners, and then the county is charged 
 much the same as a tradesman would charge if the purchase were made from him. 
 
 1714. Cliairma)!.'] Are the Committee to understand that you believe it to be 
 possil)le in the case of a short sentenced j)risoner, who is committed to gaol for 
 three months, and who is previously ignorant of any industrial trade, to make his 
 labour remunerative to the gaol } 
 
 Certainly not. 
 
 I 7 1 .5. A short sentenced prisoner then must be a dead loss so far as remunera- 
 tion goes ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1716. Will you be good enough to state whether, taking into account all the 
 expenses connected with the gaol, including the salaries of trade instructors, and 
 including the building and the housing, and the custody of the prisoner, and iiis 
 food, any profit accrues from the industrial labour of the prison ? 
 
 No, there Mould be no profit then. 
 
 1717. What is the furniture of the cells in which the prisoners are confined ? 
 A hammock, a mattress, a pillow, two blankets and a rug, a table, a stool, a tin 
 
 for food, salt cup, spoon, a wooden fork, two hair combs, a brush, and a sweeping 
 brush ; I think that would embrace the whole. 
 
 1718. Do you allow any difference in summer and winter as to the bedding? 
 No, excepting that I prefer using old blankets, as being thinner, in the 
 
 summer. 
 
 W. Muison, Esq. 
 17th March 1863. 
 
 1719. Do the prisoners wear the prison clothing, or their 
 The convicted prisoners all wear the prison clothing. 
 
 own ? 
 
 17-20. Are there any reoulations as to the issue of books to the prisoners? 
 That is entirely under the control of the chaplain, subject of course to the 
 visiting magistrates' approval. 
 
 172). Is there no regulation by which the issue of those books is limited, or is 
 it entirely optional ; that is to say, is there any rule or principle by which the 
 distribution of books by the chaplain is limited ? 
 
 An exchange of books is made twice a week ; I cannot say that there is any 
 limitation as to number, it varies so much according to circumstances. If we 
 have a man of a superior intellect or education, that man would probably have a 
 larger number of books with him than a man of inferior mind, or a less educated 
 man. 
 
 1 722. Do you regard books as an indulgence, or do you regard them as part of 
 the normal and ordinary business of the prison ? 
 
 We consider them as quite belonging to the ordinary system of the prison. 
 
 '1 723. Therefore you would not be prepared to deny books to re-couA'icted 
 prisoners r 
 
 Certainly I would not. 
 
 1 724. You would consider them as part of the instruction ? 
 I should. 
 
 1725. Are you aware, from your own experience, whether workhouse offences 
 are committed in any of the neighbouring unions in order tojget admittance to the 
 prison r 
 
 Very rarely indeed ; we occasionally may have a half-witted man committed to 
 us from the workhouse under such circumstances, but they are very isolated cases. 
 Very few are committed to us from the workhouse ; we had one very recently, 
 only six weeks or two months ago. 
 
 1726. Can you state the number of re-commitments to your gaol? 
 
 \ es ; 1 think that that is the weakest point of our system. 1 have an account 
 (37.5.) x2 here
 
 164 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Tf-. Miisson, Esq. Jiere of committals from the commeuccment of the separate system and of our re- 
 i7tb March i86c! committals also. In 1845, before our separate system commenced, our com- 
 
 mittals amounted to 1,235; in 1846, when wo had commenced our system, the 
 
 nur.iberwas reduced to 710; in 1847, 594; in 1848, G90 ; in 1849, 682 ; in 
 1850,552; in 1851, 602; in 1852, 553; in 1853, 441 ; in 1854, 546; in 1855, 
 520; in 1856, 461 ; in 1857, 540; in 1858, 536; in 1859, 435 ; in 1860, 379, 
 which is, our lowest number; in 1861, 470 ; in 1862, 578. And our population, 
 1 may as well add, is nearly 170,000 in the county, apart Irom the boroug-h. 
 
 1727. The Committee may infer from those figures that, as far as committals 
 are concerned, there has been a very considerable diminution of late years ? 
 
 Yes, more than half. 
 
 1728. Will you be good enough to state what the facts are with regard to re- 
 committals .' 
 
 In 1845 there were 251 ; in 1846, 165 ; in 1847, 158 ; in 1848, 156 ; in 1849, 
 153; in 1850, 138; in 1851, 153; in 1852, 149; in 1853, 111 ; in 1854, 1.37; 
 in 1855, 125; in 1850, 112; in 1857, 131; in 1858, 139; in 1859, 104; 
 in 1860, 118: in 1861, 122; in 1862, 162. 
 
 i 729. It would appear from those figures there has been a very slight diminution 
 in the amount of re-committals ? 
 
 There has been a diminution of one-third ; 251 as against 162. 
 
 1730. Are the majority of those re-committals after having been convicted 
 once or twice, or do they run to greater lengths ? 
 
 'We have some run to greater lengths ; generally, I think, they are once or twice 
 convicted, but I cannot speak quite positively upon that. 
 
 1731. Do ^ou not consider that the re-committals bear rather a larger propor- 
 tion than ought to be the case w-ere the system very deterrent to criminals.^ 
 
 That is a difficult question to answer. I am disposed to think that, sup- 
 posing we could reduce the numbers very materially indeed, and the "hole of 
 tho^^e numbers had been committed before, it would be a proof that the gaol 
 ■was deterring, because there would be no fresh committals to us ; still, I admit 
 that the number of re-committals is a point that often is rather puzzling to me ; 
 at the same time 1 may say that they consist chiefly of triflini^- offences, or 
 such, for instance, as sliuht day-poaching cases. A case occurred the other 
 dav of two men, who wen^ brothers, who had been both probably twice or three 
 times committed before ; they were committed for day-poaching, and they were 
 ordered to be imprisoned, or to pay a fine, a very heavy fine indeed ; 1 think 
 the two men had to pay 12 l. within \s. Gd., and these men came to prison, and 
 of course they would be numbered amongst our re-commitments ; but no sooner 
 ■were they in prison than one of them applied to be allowed to write to his wife, 
 and lather than stay in prison, they both paid the money that ni^ht. Then, in 
 addition to these, cases of assaults, and of drunkeimess for which there is no hard 
 labour, constantly recur, and such are all considered as re-committals. 
 
 173'j. Therefore, the inference from your evidence would b;, that, deducting 
 the cases of drunkenness and assaults, such as you have described, and of poaching, 
 the real re-committals to prison constitute a small number in proportion to the 
 total ? 
 
 Yes, they would be much smaller than these numbers represent. 
 
 1733. Is it your habit to communicate with prisoners on their discharge, or do 
 you ascertain ^hat their feelings have been with regard to the system to which they 
 have been subjected .' 
 
 Not so much of late as it used to be formerly ; at one time I took very great 
 interest in the matter ; every man was brought before me, and I examined him 
 before he left the prison. 
 
 1734. Do you believe that prisoners canvass very freely amongst themselves 
 the merits or demerits, in their eyes, of jiarticular jirisons ? 
 
 We do not know that of ourselves ; we hear of it. Perliaps I could best 
 illustrate the effect of the prison by a case which has been recently told me by a 
 solicitor, the clerk to one of the petty sessional divisions, at our last Epiphany 
 sessions: the circumstance occurred on the borders of Leicestershire and the 
 
 adjoining
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 165 
 
 adjoining- connty : a man was convicted of jioacliing-, was sentenced to be ini- ir. Musson, Esq. 
 
 prisoned with hard hibour, or to pay a fine ; he w-as sentenced to a neighbouring- 
 
 county prison, and not to Leicester, and on hearing his sentence he said, " Oh, I '7'^ - "''t' '^ '3- 
 will serve my time in that prison ; if it had been Leicester, I would have paid."' 
 
 1735. Lord Sfexcard.] You stated to the Committee just now, that for some 
 years yon made inquiries into the effects of prison discipline ; but that for some 
 years past you have ceased to do so. Will you tell the Committee -why you 
 ceased to do so ? 
 
 There was a Commission of Inquiry sent down by tlie Secretary of State to 
 investigate the conduct of the officers in the treatment of prisoners in Leicester 
 Gaol some years ago, and it gave me such a distaste for putting myself prominently 
 forward in any matters connected with prison discipline, that I was determined to 
 cease to do so. It was a most unpleasant matter to us all, both to the magis- 
 trates and myself. 
 
 1736. Chainnan.'] Your opinion of the system which is pursued at Leicester is, 
 that it is, ujion the whole, deterring to the prisoners? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1737. And that is grounded upon your own experience as governor there for so 
 many years, and your own knowledge of the feelings of the prisoners who have 
 been subjected to this discipline ? 
 
 Yes ; I have heard it myself many times from the prisoners. 
 
 1738. Are the Government convicts who occupy the 140 cells you have 
 mentioned, subjected to the same discipline ? 
 
 No, not to the crank ; in all other respects the same discipline is applied to them. 
 
 1739. In the event of prison offences being committed, what are the punish- 
 ments to which YOU have recourse ? 
 
 Our more general punishment is the light cell, the prisoner being confined in 
 his own cell, upon bread and water. Occasionally we use the dark cell, and 
 occasionally we flog. 
 
 1 740. Will you state what your experience has been with regard to corporal 
 punishment ? 
 
 There is no punishment so effective. There cannot be a question about that. 
 
 1741. Have you frequently found it necessary to repeat corporal punishment 
 for the same oti'ence r 
 
 No ; it may, and no doubt has happened, but I do not at this moment remember 
 a case. 
 
 1742. Earl of Dudley.'] Once is found to be quite sufficient, is it not? 
 
 Yes, as a rule, it is. We have occasionally had desperate men, who have told 
 the magistrates that they did not care about flogging, and have set us all at 
 defiance. Our rule in flogging is, to put a leather collar round the man's neck, so as 
 to prevent the whip catching him there. I have said to the officer flogging him, 
 " You must flog the man in one place, keep the whip in one place, because 
 the n::agislrates have determined to flog him again if he commits himself;" and 
 the man has never been flogged again after that. One punishment has always 
 proved effective. I had one man amongst the Government convicts, a ticket-of- 
 leave man, and a most insubordinate man. He smashed everytiiing m his cell. 
 I do not know how many times he has been before the visiting magistrates for 
 misconduct, and a short time ago he was flogged. The magistrates said it was 
 impossible for them to overlook the matter ; he had three dozen ; and he has 
 never been reported since. The following case approached very closely to a second 
 punishment. A boy about a fortnight since, was determined not to work at the 
 crank. He and his brother had been with us, at different times, ever since ahnost 
 infants. He was birched, and after he was birched he was idle for two days ; I said 
 to him, "• The magistrates will not allow yon to continue in idleness; they will 
 flog you on your back the ne.xt time. He was subdued at ouce, and he did his 
 work after that. lie went down to the magistrates a few days ago, and told 
 them that if they would allow his misconduct to be looked over, he would always 
 do his work in future ; and he has done so. 
 
 1743. That was simply from the fear of being flogged on the back ? 
 Yes. 
 
 (37. 0.) X 3 1 744. Chairman.\
 
 166 iJINUTKS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W.Musscn,Eiq. ^'"^4- Chuirman.] Do you believe that with those two classes, juvenile of- 
 
 ' ' fenders, and men who have been frequeHtly re-convicted, and are of a very har- 
 
 17th March 1863. dened character, flogging is the punisliment' which is most effective "^ 
 I do. 
 
 1745- I" fact your evidence woukl show that it is almost invariably deterrino- ? 
 
 \ es, and tliat is also the opinion of our visiting justices, for the matter has 
 been discussed by them, and one, if not more, has said that he never remembered 
 an instance of flogging being repeated. 
 
 1 746. Are not some of your prisoners locked up in their cells ? 
 
 They are in their cells the whole day, excepting when they are taken out to 
 chapel, to exercise, &c. They rise at six in the morning in the summer and 
 winter, and retire to rest at 10. 
 
 1747. Eight hours being the allowance of sleep ? 
 Yes. 
 
 174S. Is that, in your opinion, sufficient? 
 Quite. 
 
 ] 74g. Have you never had any comjjjaints to the insufficiency of it ? 
 
 No.' 
 
 1 750. On what do they sleep ? 
 
 They have a hammock, a mattress, two blankets and a rug. 
 
 1 75 1 . Do you have recourse, in any instance, to the guard-bed, a simple 
 board r 
 
 No, excepting in the refractory cells. 
 
 1752. Earl 0^ Dudley ^^ In winter how is the time from dark to 10 o'clock 
 filled up ? 
 
 The county prisoners work until 9 o'clock, and then are allowed one hour to 
 read. 
 
 1 753. I understand you to say distinctly that even in the case of those per- 
 forming hard labour a certain amount of industrial work is done besides the 
 teaching ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 17,54. Is the teaching voluntary or compulsory? 
 
 Their attendance at school is voluntary ; but the crank is a species of labour 
 which makes them all volunteer for school; I never had a case to the contrary. 
 
 1 755. Does every man who comes into your gaol more or less learn then while 
 he is there according to his capacity ? 
 We endeavour to teach him. 
 
 1756. Lord Jl'odehoiise.'] Are prisoners who are in for very short terms, such as 
 a w eek or ten days, employed in industrial labour r 
 No, they are not, beyond one hour per day. 
 
 17.57. Lord President.'] You have given the Committee one instance, and we 
 have heard from another witness that the reputation of Leicester Gaol has a deter- 
 ring effect ; can you give the Committee any reason why you think it is more 
 deterring tlian some other prisons ? 
 
 I think that our system of discipline is very strict; we never allow the separate 
 system to be broken through on any consideration; the prisoners are in separate 
 cells ; they are exercised in separate yards, and they have separate stalls at chapel ; 
 and 1 may say that when they arc taken up to be tried in court, they go in separate 
 partitions in the waggon, and are arraigned separately. 
 
 17.58. Earl of Dudley.] Is not the separation relaxed when they are with the 
 schoolmaster in class .' 
 
 No, they are separated then. 
 
 1 75y. Do they not sit at the same table r 
 
 No ; [hey arc in the chapel in separate stalls ; we use the chapel as a school- 
 room. 
 
 1760. Lord
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 167 
 
 1760. Lord President.] Do you think that the principal element of deterring W. Musson, Esq. 
 them is the completeness of the separate system ? - 
 
 I think that the separate system conjoined with the hard labonr is a very J/ th^^arc 3. 
 
 powerful element. 
 
 1 76 1. Do you consider your hard labour harder than is usually the case in 
 other j)risons ? 
 
 I believe thai the crank labour has been discountenanced so entirely, that it is 
 scarcely practised in apy prison in England. It may be in use at Northampton, 
 but 1 am not certain of that. The prison inspectors have set their faces against 
 it entirely as an irritating and useless labour. 
 
 1 76'2. Earl of Dudteii.'] Does your experience as a governor confirm that ? 
 
 Certainly not. The'inspectors and I do not agree upon that point. We have 
 had very long arguments upon the subject, but I am satisfied their theory is unsound. 
 
 17G3. Lord President.'] Do you think it superior to the treadwheel ? 
 
 I ought not to say so, as I have had no experience wilh the treadwheel. 1 think 
 the treadwheel is difficult to equalize, and that if you put four men upon the 
 treadwheel, the labour will be unequal. 
 
 1764. Earl of DudleijP\ Is not the treadwheel the only compulsory labour, and 
 cannot a man shirk his work more when he uses the crank ? 
 Not unless he is determined to be punished. 
 
 1 765. But he can take more or loss time about it, can he not ? 
 No ; he is made to do his work in a given time. 
 
 1766. And that is hard labour if done in a given time ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1767. Earl Cathcari.] Do vou separate the women as well as the men ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1768. With regard to the washing, how is that managed? 
 They have separate washhouses. 
 
 1769. Earl of Romjzey.^ You mean one house with different compartments ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1 770. Lord IVode/ioiise.] Are they washing cells ? 
 
 Yes, they are of wood ; and the women are all separated the same as they would 
 be in their cells, only in smaller compartments. 
 
 1 77 1. Chairman.'] Do you carry out the system of separation at chapel ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1772. Is every prisoner in chapel separated from his fellow prisoners by means 
 of compartments ? 
 
 He is. 
 
 1773. Has that arrangement, in your opinion, been attended with advantage ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1774. Are you of opinion that if those separations were removed, any evil would 
 result either in the way of communication passing between prisoner and prisoner, 
 or otherwise r 
 
 I am of that opinion certainly. 
 
 1775. Do you find that, practically speaking, much communication passes now? 
 No. 
 
 177G. 
 Yes. 
 
 Are the separations painted .' 
 
 1 777. How many officers are on guard in chapel ? 
 
 Seven or eight usually ; but the numbers vary a little, according to their duties. 
 
 1778. Are you uuare whether the chaplain of your gaol prefers the prisoners 
 to be in compartments, or would he wish to see the compartments removed ? 
 
 He was very anxious to convert the chapel into a church, as many chaplains 
 have done ; and some short time ago he spoke to the visiting justices again, recom- 
 mending an alteration. 1 then said 1 should like to have the thing settled one way 
 or the other, because I was not at all pleased with the pendulum kind of work 
 
 (.37. 5.) X 4 about
 
 16S MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ;r- Miitson, Esq. fibout it. lie then wrote to some chaplains to inquire as to how it had answered, 
 
 and I believe the answer he received from one chaplain, where the stalls had 
 
 171I1 March 1863. jjgg,^ discontinued, so satisfied him that it would be an injudicious change, that he 
 ~~ withdrew his representations from the magistrates, and now is quite satisfied that 
 the stalls are preferable to an open cha]iel. 
 
 1779. Fi'om your experience of the matter, you would, so far as you are con- 
 cerned, refuse your acquiescence to any abolition of compartments ? 
 
 Most decidedly ; if there is any attempt at communication I can know what 
 that communication is ; I would venture to say that if I were at home this day, 
 supposing any communication had taken place, an officer would be almost sure to 
 report the men when they came out of chapel, and would tell me every word 
 they had said. It has occurred over and over again that an officer has reported a 
 man for talking, and when the man has denied it, I have said to the officer, " You 
 are quite clear that you are not mistaken ; tell me what he said ; " and he has 
 told me in the presence of the prisoner. 
 
 1 780. Do the women attend chapel at the same time as the men ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1781. In the event of sudden illness or fainting, how are the prisoners, whether 
 male or female, removed ? 
 
 We move them out of the stalls as quietly as possible. 
 
 1 782. Have you ever found any practical inconvenience to result from their 
 removal ? 
 
 There is a little interruption to the service, but the inconvenience is so trifling, 
 that I do not think it worth a thought. 
 
 1783. Earl oi Dudley.'] They do not take to fainting as a feint, do they? 
 No, I think not ; it may be so occasionally, but it is very rare. 
 
 1 784. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Is the fainting a matter of frequent occurrence ? 
 No, very rare indeed. 
 
 1785. Chairmau.] In your opinion the advantage of separation far outweighs 
 any inconveniences which may result from it ? 
 
 Yes, I think so. 
 
 1786. Lord JVodchoiise.] Do you ever find that prisoners when confined for 
 long periods in sejiarate cells suffer at all mentally from the separation } 
 
 There arc a great variety of minds, and it does not influence all alike. 
 
 1787. Do you think that they suffer more than it is desirable that they should 
 suffer ? 
 
 I should say, as a rule, that they do not. 
 
 1788. Do you find it so in exceptional cases ? 
 
 AV e have a i'ew exceptional cases, but I am afraid that some of them I could 
 not speak very positively about; I am in very considerable doubt whether there 
 is not simulation ; the notion that separation produces insanity has been made so 
 public, that all i)risoners are aware of it. 
 
 1789. What is the longest period for which county prisoners are confined r 
 Two years. 
 
 1790. Do you ever find that women when confined as long as two years in 
 separate cells suffer mentally more than is desirable? 
 
 I c(,uld not, speaking from recollection, say that a woman did ever pass two 
 years in my prison ; but certainly no woman ever suffered from long confinement 
 in a cell ; I tliink the longest jieriod that a woman ])assed with us was in the case 
 of a very incorrigible woman who was sent us from the borough by the Secretary 
 of State, and certainly her mind was not affected. 
 
 17QI. In that case, was the confinement for a year and a half? 
 
 I should think it would be. 
 
 ]70'2. Earl Cathcart.] On the occasion of a suicide by hangin'j,- in 1SG2, there 
 was a" verdict of temporary insanity returned ; what did that occur from r 
 
 The suicide was in 1861. The jirisoner was committed for trial, had been 
 three weeks in conrmenient, and committed suicide, as it was believed, because 
 
 Lis friends would not bail him out of prison. 
 
 1793. Lord
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE, 1 C9 * 
 
 1793. hard Wodehouse.'] You stated, did you not, that you had not crank W. 3Iussori, E^q. 
 labour enough for all tlie prisoners who are sentenced to hard labour r „ , ■m~^] gf 
 
 We have at times more than 33 Avho have not finished the crank ; therefore ' 
 
 some must Mait until others are worked oft'. 
 
 1794. Do you not think it is essential that there should be a sufficiency of hard 
 labour, either by means of the crank or the treadwheel, for all the prisoners who 
 are so sentenced ? 
 
 Yes ; in all cases ] should advocate the carrying out of the sentence of hard 
 labour. 
 
 1795. You employ the prisoners a part of their time in industrial labour ; how 
 do vou regulate the time during which the prisoners shall be employed on the 
 crank as compared with their being employed in industrial labour? 
 
 I can hardly tell how it first arose ; I believe I had the arranging of it. 
 
 1796. I mean, what is the princijile u])on which prisoners are divided into 
 classes or otherwise, so that some are employed in one way and some in other 
 ways ? 
 
 Every man works at the crank before he becomes entitled, as it were, to what 
 is called industrial labour. 
 
 17Q7. Then is he given industrial labour as an indulgence? 
 
 We cannot carry the crank labour out entirely, because we have not a suffi- 
 cient number of cranks for it, and therefore we are obliged to resort to some other 
 mode of labour. 
 
 1798. Earl of Dvdlci/.] But you have the wheel, have you not ? 
 No, we have no wheel. 
 
 1709. Lord Wodehouse.^ Supposing you had crank labour enough for all the 
 prisoners who are sentenced to hard labour, would it, in your opinion, be desirable 
 that they should be employed as an indulgence part of their time in industrial 
 labour, or would you keep them entirely to the crank ? 
 
 I should not recommend their being kept at the crank up to the close of their 
 sentence if it were a long sentence ; but if it were a short sentence I should prefer 
 their being kept at the crank the whole time. 
 
 1800. Viscount Evcrsleij.'] Can you regulate tlie pressure upon the crank ? 
 Yes. 
 
 ] 801 . Do you attend to that yourself? 
 
 Of late I have not done so. Since the inquiry to which I have alluded I have 
 given it up. I take care that there is no complaint made upon the part of tho 
 prisoners, because if a prisoner at all intimates to me that the crank is heavier 
 than it ought to be, I feel it myself, and satisfy myself as to whether it is so or 
 not. 
 
 1802. Chaii'man.'] With whom does the regulation of the crank rest? 
 With the warder who has the charge of the ward. 
 
 1803. How many principal warders are there? 
 
 It would not be the principal warder who would attend to this. One ward 
 does not contain the whole of the crunks. Tliere are 28 in one ward, and five in 
 another ; so that one warder would have 28 cranks under his charge, and the 
 other five. 
 
 1804. Is there not, under such ciicumstances, a risk either of negligence or 
 partiality if the regulation of the cranks be entrusted to a warder? 
 
 I do not think there is where the prison is carefully supervised ; the warders 
 require looking after as well as the j)risoners. 
 
 1 805. Lord Steivard.'] Does the warder regulate the crank according to the 
 supposed boddy strength of the prisoner ? 
 
 We used to be very careful about that, I)ut of late we have not been so particular. 
 We do it to a certain extent, but not to the extent that we used to do, because I 
 used formerly to try tlie weight of every crank m\se]f. I have not done so 
 recently ; indeed, the inspectors liave said so much against the crank that it has 
 quite cooled my ardour in the matter. 
 
 (37.6.) Y 1S06. Cliairman.l
 
 170 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. Musson, Esq. 1 SoG. Cliairman.'] Are tlie Committee to understand you that, whatever the 
 
 lengtli of a sentence which may be passed upon a prisoner, during some portion, 
 
 171 aic 1 3. ^^ ^^ij gypjjt^g^ Qf j^jg imprisonment, the crank is always in operation? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1S07. y\nd that a prisoner never can be entirely free from hard labour at the 
 crank during his stay in prison ? 
 
 Not unless upon the report of the medical officer. 
 
 1 SoS. Have you any means of following the characters and conduct of those 
 prisoners who have professed themselves to be reformed whilst tliey have been in 
 prison ? 
 
 No, I cannot say that we have. 
 
 1809. Do you believe that the majority of prisoners are permanently benefited 
 by the moral instruction and reformatory system of the prison ? 
 
 I think many are benefited. 
 
 1810. To what extent do you allow the instruction of the chaplain and school- 
 master to come in with regard to the hours of labour? 
 
 The county prisoners at this time have tive hours' instruction per week. The 
 school is not under my control at all ; that is quite apart from my duty; it is 
 settled between the magistrates and the chaplain. They have five hours per week 
 in school, and those who can write are allowed a certain time per week in their 
 cells to Avrite. 
 
 1811. Earl of Dudley ^ To write letters to their friends? 
 
 They arc entitlfd to write a letter every three months, but that we do not con- 
 sider a part of their instruction. I mean that they are allowed to write in copy- 
 books, under the instruction of the schoolmaster. 
 
 1812. If I remember your figures rightly, the average number of prisoners in 
 your gaol is a little over 500 ? 
 
 About that. 
 
 1813. And 33 cranks comprise the whole of the forced labour that you have 
 in your prison : 
 
 Yes, the whole. 
 
 1814. Are you speaking now of the county gaol ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1815. You have a second gaol at Leicester, have you not ? 
 There is a gaol for the borough, not a second county gaol. 
 
 i8i6. Chairman^ Have you any means in your system of giving either encou- 
 ragement or reward to those prisoners who conduct themselves well whilst they 
 are in prison ? 
 
 No. 
 
 1817. Are there no classes with superior advantages attached to them to which 
 it is possible to ))romote well-conducted prisoners? 
 
 No, we do nothing of that kind in our prison. 
 
 1818. Do you not conceive that that might be an advantage ? 
 
 I am not very fond of giving an opinicm upon matters which I have not some 
 practical knowledge about; I cannot speak with practical knowledge upon this 
 point. It might be an advantage, but tl.ere would be very few in number, I 
 apprehend, who would come under that category. 
 
 1819. From your point of view it would probably be difhcult to find people of 
 good conduct ? 
 
 It would be exceedingly diflicult thoroughly to satisfy myself that a man was 
 a reformed man. A man may be a very good prisoner, as many of the old ones 
 arc, and yet not be reformed. 
 
 1820. Lord fVodehoiisc.'] VV'ould you see any ol)jection to make a man's em- 
 ployment or industrial labour dependent upon his t)ehaving himself well in 
 
 gaol .' 
 
 iS'o • I think that would be desirable, and that is what we contemplated when 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 171 
 
 the rule was drawn up ; but we are not altogether in a position to do it because of 
 our limited number of cranks. 
 
 1821. But you think it would be desirable as a sj'stem ? 
 Yes, I think so. 
 
 i82'2. Chairman.'] Speaking, therefore, generally, you would be in favour of 
 the reduction of hard labour Avithin certain limits, and the substitution for that 
 hard labour of some lighter and easier labour as a reward for good conduct. 
 
 I can see no objection to that ; indeed, speaking of long sentences, I should 
 object to the crank being used the whole time. 
 
 1S23. ^ aOyH Wodehouse .^ You are now speaking of long sentences; but vou 
 stated before, did you not, ihat lor very short sentences you would employ crank 
 labour entirely? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1824. Earl of Dudley^ Where does a long sentence begin according to your 
 notion ; is it after a year r 
 
 Earlier than that ; I think a six months' sentence a long sentence if it is to be 
 carried out. 
 
 1S25. Chairman.'] I presume that there are a certain class of prisoners, such as 
 receivers of stolen goods, trained thieves, men re-convicted very frequently, and 
 the whole class of vagrants with whom educational teaching and moral instruction 
 is almost valueless ? 
 
 Of receivers of stolen goods and trained thieves, we know very little ; the 
 vagrants, I am happy to say, we have nearly got rid of altogether ; Leicester gaol 
 used to be a red letter gaol, it is a black one now. 
 
 1826. At anytime within your memory, was the gaol of Leicester resorted to 
 for the winter months ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1827. Has that ceased ? 
 Quite so. 
 
 1828. Used offences to be committed in workhouses, for the purpose of gainino- 
 admittance to the prison ? 
 
 I think that has been done, but I can speak more of the class of vagrants 
 committing offences ; occasionally they do commit offences ; but those who do 
 ■commit such offences do not know Avhat Leicester gaol is. 
 
 1829. Generally speaking, there has been a falling off in the re-committals of 
 county offenders of that class to the gaol at Leicester, has there not ? 
 
 Yes, I believe there has ; we have very few cases of committals for workhouse 
 offences ; and of trained thieves we know very little in our county. 
 
 1830. Earl of Ducie.] Is it the strictness of their separation in your gaol, that 
 makes it so deterrent ? 
 
 I think it is. 
 
 1831. Solely that? 
 
 I would not say solely that ; but that combined with our crank system. 
 
 1 832. Do you think it is that which keeps vagrants out r 
 Yes. 
 
 1 833. Earl of Malmcshurij.'] Is their diet less good than in other gaols ? 
 Our diet is the official diet, the same as in other prisons. 
 
 1 834. Lord Steivard.] What is your opinion with regard to the sufficiency, or 
 the more than sufficiency, of the diet ? 
 
 I do not think I have any lault to find with the diet. 
 
 1 83;^ . Earl of Dudley.] If you were absolute in the matter, would you reduce it ? 
 1 should hesitate very much about reducing the diet. 
 
 1 836. What do you mean by a Government convict, contradistinguished from 
 an ordinary convict ? 
 
 He is a convict under sentence of penal servitude, who is sent to us by the 
 Uovernment. — 
 
 (^''•5-) y2 1837. From 
 
 W. Musson, Esq, 
 17th March 1863.
 
 172 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 '11^. Mussoti, Esq. \ 837. !From tlic moment a sentence of penal servitude is passed upon a prisoner, 
 
 he is considered to be a Government convict ? 
 
 17 1 .larcii 3. j^T^_^^ ^^jj. ^^^,j^ convicts ; our own are removed to other prisons, and other Govern- 
 ment convicts are sent to us from other prisons. 
 
 1838. Lord President^ Woukl you have any objection to state upon what 
 subject \ou and the inspectors have such very different opinions ? 
 
 The inspectors have been very anxious to remove the separate stalls in the chapel, 
 and also to do away with the crank labour. 
 
 1839. And to substitute the \vheel for it? 
 
 I do not know that ; they want a dilFerent kind of labour, profitable labour, such 
 as trades to be carried on in prison. 
 
 1840. And to do away with forced labour altogether ? 
 To do av, ay with hard labour. 
 
 1841. I'larl of Dudlei/.] Tlie Committee have been told tbat a long day's work 
 as industrial labour is hard labour ; in your Oi)inion is that so ? 
 
 I should say it is not. 
 
 1842. It is im])ossible to enforce it, is it not, if the priso!ier will not do itr 
 You cannot do it. 1 recollect a most extraordinary instance which occurred 
 
 when we picked oakum. The oakum was paid out ; every man bad his allotted 
 task. I cannot give the exact amount, but we had a youth in the ])rison who had 
 been picking oakum during his full sentence, ])eihaps a fortnight or three weeks, 
 and we thought we had given him enough to do, but to show us how much we 
 were out in our calculation, the last day, for his own amusement, I think he picked 
 throe times the allotted (juantity. 
 
 I 843. Lord Wodehousc.^ I understand then that you do not consider industrial 
 labour as penal labour ? 
 [l is scarcely penal Iribour. 
 
 1 S44. Lord President.] Is there any other difference of opinion upon any other 
 subject between you and the inspectors ? 
 
 No, they always give us credit for good management, but upon those two points 
 there has been a difference of opinion between us. 
 
 184.V Earl of Ronwci/.'] One of those points, being about the most essential 
 point in the management of a prison, namely, the question of hard labour or not 
 
 hard labour ? 1 1 • n 
 
 That is one point, and the separation of the prisoners in the chapel is another 
 
 very material point. 
 
 1846. Chairman.'] Under what circumstances are extra diets issued .?_ 
 
 It is a very rare instance indeed that we increase the diet ; an alteration in the 
 diet for invalids is not uncommon, but an increase of diet is exceedingly rare. 
 
 1 847. Is that increase of diet given at the sole discretion of the surgeon, or is 
 it with your concurrence r 
 
 It rests with the surgeon, I never interfere with it. 
 
 1848. Does he state that increase upon some permanent record ? 
 
 Yes, in his journal. 
 
 ,84.,. Are the prisoners who thus become entitled to this extra or to this 
 altered allowance of food upon the sick list, or in the infirmary, or are they pri- 
 soners supposed to be doing ordinary work ? , . ^ • .1 • 
 
 They are upon the sick list ; they may 1)C in the infirmary or in their own 
 
 cells. 
 
 1 8 r,o. 1 lav(- vou a stnge which is intermediate to the infirmary ? 
 
 Ih'at is ontirrlv under the supervision and control of the surgeon ; if he has a 
 case which he thinks is necessary to be removed to the mhrmary, he orders he 
 man or woman to be removed there. We have a man at this time and a woman also, 
 in the infirmary, and we have other cases which the surgeon does not think ne- 
 cessary to remove out of their own cells, but treats them in their cells. 
 
 185.. Does it ever hapiien that a man is working his full time at the crank, 
 and at the same time is in receipt of an extra allowance ? 
 
 No, I have no recollection of any such case. ^^
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 173 
 
 ' 1852. In all matters of labour and diet the surgeon is absolute, is he not? ff. Musson, Esq. 
 
 He has a veto uj)on the labour, and of course the diet is entirely under his 
 
 control. The magistrates also have the power of mcreasing the diet if they i7tn March 18C3. 
 please. 
 
 18 -,3. In the general every-day government of a prison, in deciding whether a 
 prisoner shall have more or less hard labour, or more or less diet, the surgeon is 
 absolute. 
 
 He cannot increase the amount of hard labour, but he can reduce it ; and he 
 can increase the amount of food. 
 
 1 854. Marquess of Salisburij.^ Which do you think the most effective, a short 
 sentence severely inflicted, or a long sentence with less severity ? 
 
 That would be very difficult to answer. I think a short severe sentence for a 
 young beginner or a boy, or for a man who has never been in prison before, might 
 probably be more effective than a long sentence ; but I would not say that a 
 short sentence would be more effective than a long one for a man who had been 
 imprisoned before. I should doubt it exceedingly. 
 
 1855. In case of re-committal, you would prefer a long sentence? 
 Yes, I should. 
 
 1856. Earl o^ Malmesbury .'] I think that the question of the Noble Marquess 
 referred to a long and comparatively easy sentence ? 
 
 Precisely so. But your Loidship must remember that we have our system of 
 separation strictly carried out all through. 
 
 1 857. Would a short and sharp sentence be more effective than a long one 
 with less of hard labour ? 
 
 I think in many cases that it would. 
 
 iSj;8. Marquess of &//56«7-(/.] You have stated, have you not, that a sentence 
 of hard labour cannot be carried out for the full period of a long sentence — say 
 18 months, or two years ? 
 
 Just; so. 
 
 1 8,59. Earl Catlicart.l The inspector reports that you have had a great deal of 
 diarrhoea in your prison. Do you attribute that to any particular cause ? 
 
 Yes. The diarrhoea was confined chiefly to the Government convicts, and I 
 attributed it, and suggested to the medical inspector, that it arose from the richness 
 of their food ; this was also the opinion of the surgeon, and in consequence of 
 that, the ox-head cheeks were withheld from the soup, and the men's health 
 improved. We have no diarrhoea to speak of amongst the prisoners working at 
 crank labour. 
 
 1 860. Chairman.^ Do you believe that prisoners entertain a preference for 
 Government convict establishments over your own gaol ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1861. Earl ofZ)W/c(/.] Then they would prefer a sentence of three years, 
 involving penal servitude, to 18 months' imprisonment with hard labour? 
 
 I should say decidedly that a sentence of three years' penal servitude is less 
 in amount than a sentence of 18 months or two years with hard labour. I 
 think many men would prefer penal servitude for three years to 18 months in 
 gaol. 
 
 1862. It would appear from what you have stated, that in 1862 the number 
 of committals to your gaol rose again. Can you give any reason for that? 
 
 No, 1 do not know that I can ; it seemed to be aliuosr simultaneous and universal 
 throughout England. It is a very difficult thing to form an opinion upon the 
 cause of the sudden increase or decrease of crime. 
 
 I St)3. Chairman.'] You have probably become aware that in many courts of law 
 there is a difficulty in identifying prisoners, in order to prove their previous con- 
 victions } 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1864. Have you ever turned your mind to that subject, or have you ever 
 (37. 5.) Y 3 contemplated
 
 174 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. Musson, Esq. contemplated any scheme by which it would be easier than it is at present to 
 
 identify them ? 
 
 17th March 1863. J cannot say that I have. 
 
 1 '^6^. Earl of Dudley.'] Tliere is no difficulty if the officers will do their work 
 properly ; has not the difficulty arisen from quite another cause ? 
 The bad pay, I believe, has been the great check. 
 
 1 866. There is no difficulty in regard to the recognition of a man who has 
 ever been in prison r 
 
 Our officers have no difficulty ; they always identify a man when necessary. 
 
 1867. When prisoners are not identified in that way as having been previously 
 convicted, is it not simply because the officers, for some reason or other, do not 
 appear against them r 
 
 I cannot speak fi'om any personal experience, but I have understood that the 
 allowance that the officers get is so very bad, that there is an objection to identify 
 them. 
 
 186S. Lord SteiLmrd.l Docs your experience coincide with that of another 
 witness before the Committee, that the prisoners are generally very communicative 
 with the officers and with each other as to their antecedents '( 
 
 I could not say that we have no communication of any kind ; but we do not 
 allow the officers to communicate with them. 
 
 1869. Lord Wodehouse.~\ The chaplain and the schoolmaster would of course 
 have an opportunity of communicating with them ? 
 
 Yes ; they would have more opportunity than any other person. 
 
 1S70. Do you find that they communicate with the chaplain, so as to enable 
 you to know wliether they have been committed before? 
 
 I am afraid that a great many of their histories are not to be relied upon. 
 
 1871. Chairman.'] How are the cells warmed and lighted? 
 
 They are heated by hot air, on what is called Haydon's principle ; the building 
 was erected under the su])erintendence of Sir Joshua Jebb, and the cells are 
 lighted with gas. 
 
 1872. Earl of i)ufZ/ej/.] Are they entirely ventilated by the ventilating appa- 
 ratus, or can they open the windows } 
 
 They are ventilated from the corridor, and the prisoners can open the outer 
 window in addition. 
 
 1873. Chairman.] Do you think it an advantage that the prisoner should 
 himself have an opportunity of opening the window ? 
 
 Yes, I think there is an advantage in that. 
 
 1874. Does not that sometimes facilitate communications between the pri- 
 soners ? 
 
 No, not with us ; our windows are constructed upon such a principle that it is 
 impossible for them to communicate, and that is saying a great deal too, because 
 they will communicate almost under any circumstances. 
 
 1875. Do you believe that, on the whole, communications do not j)ass in the 
 gaol at Leicester ? 
 
 They are very limited ; that they do pass communications we know, because 
 ■we detect them ; but they are very limited. 
 
 1876. Does punishment always follow upon communication : 
 
 Yes, as a rule ; 1 do not mean to say that no one ever escapes punishment, 
 but punishment follows generally. 
 
 1877. Is there any suggestion that you would wish to make to the Committee, 
 or any infoniiation tliut you think would be useful to their Lordships, on the points 
 that we have been discussing i 
 
 I cannot say that there is. 
 
 1878. Lord Stetvard.] Are you so well satisfied with the effect of the crank 
 that you do not wish to try the experiment of the treadwheel ? 
 
 I should
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 175 
 
 I should have no objection to the treadwheel if it were to be proposed by the W. Mmson, Siqi 
 magistrates of the county ; but I very much doubt whether you couhi equalise ■• - g„ 
 
 the labour on the treadwheel, because assuminc; that anv four individuals were ''^ 
 upon the treadwheel, I do not think they would tind the labour equal ; I think 
 that one would suffer very much more than another from it. 
 
 1879. Marquess of Salisbury.] I think you have stated that you know nothing 
 about the shot-drill r 
 
 No, I do not. 
 
 1880. Earl of Dudlvi/.] Have you, in the course of your experience, had any 
 knowledge of the treadwheel .' 
 
 Never anv. 
 
 1881. C/iairnian.] Have you ever tried stone breaking as a punishment ? 
 No. 
 
 1882. Would you be of opinion that stone breaking was an advantageous 
 punishment? 
 
 I cannot give an opinion upon that; I think it is a species of labour that 
 would introduce a relaxation of discipline into a prison almost inevitably, because 
 you would have to move your men backwards and forwards to and from their 
 labour, and I do not know wliether you wouhl get that close supervision that you 
 ought to have without a large number of officers. 
 
 1883. In proportion as you change the men from one part of the prison to 
 anotlier, the facility for communication increases, and the difficulty of maintainino- 
 order also increases ? 
 
 Yes, I think so. 
 
 1 884. Earl of Dudley.'] Do not you consider that your number of cranks is far 
 too few, considering the number of prisoners you generally have ? 
 
 We could employ more undoubtedly, but then the question arises as to whether 
 we ought to have them at all, because the inspectors say we ought not. 
 
 188,5. But speaking now, from your point of view, and feeling that forced 
 labour is an absolute necessity, if we pass a sentence of hard labour, which means 
 either the wheel or the crank, is not the amount of crank labour in your prison far 
 under what would be necessary for such a number as 500 prisoners? 
 
 Yes, but 500 is the whole number, not the average number; our average number 
 is very much below that. 
 
 1 886. What is your average number in the prison at a time ? 
 
 Our average number of county prisoners for the last four years was 196, 175, 
 1G2, 181. 
 
 1 887. Inasmuch as a very large proportion of those are sentenced to hard 
 labour, are not 33 cranks far below what you require ? 
 
 Yes, I say that they are. 
 
 i888. And you are obliged to take men off to make room for others ? 
 Yes, and to delay one sentence of hard labour until another has passed 
 through it. 
 
 i88q. Consequently, the same crank is obliged to be used on the same day by 
 many prisoners ? 
 
 Not on the same day. The man is in his own cell with the crank ; and he has 
 to finish his labour before he is moved out of the cell. 
 
 iSgo. As long as there are 33 prisoners in possession of the cells with the 
 cranks, no other prisoner can go on to hard labour ? 
 
 Just so ; it sometimes liappens that we have spare cranks. Some of the 
 prisoners are undergoing the remaining portion of their sentence, and they have 
 passed their crank labour ; so that we have spare cranks. 
 
 1891. Are you not necessarily obliged to shorten the time of the crank labour 
 very much, in order to allow others to come on to that labour? 
 
 No, not otten. ^Ve may have done it occasionally. We postpone the labour 
 of one man until another lias gone through it. 
 
 (37.5.) y4 1892. Chairman.]
 
 176 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. Musson, Esq. 1 892. C/iairmn?!.'] Will you be so good as to put in a return of the scale of the 
 
 hard labour punishment which you have described to the Committee ? 
 
 ]7tli March 1863. J ^jj] Jq gQ_ j^j/g sa7)ie is delivered in. {Vide Appendix.) 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next. 
 
 One o'clock.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 177 
 
 Die Martis, f24" Martii 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT: 
 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Loud Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvok. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 Earl RoMNEY. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl DuciE. 
 Viscount EVERSLEY. 
 Lord WODEHOUSE. 
 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON in the Chair. 
 
 HERBERT POULTON VOULES, Esq., is called in, and examined 
 
 as follows : 
 
 i8y3. Chair ma)}.] YOU are inspector of prisons for the northern and 
 midland districts, are you not ? 
 For the northern district. 
 
 1894. There has been a change made in the practice since the death of Sir 
 John Kincaid ? 
 
 Tlie whole of Great Britain has been divided into two districts ; it was in 
 three. 
 
 I 895. Do you take the whole of that which formerly belonged to Sir John 
 Kincaid's inspection ? 
 The whole of it. 
 
 1 896. Can you very briefly state to the Committee what counties are included 
 in your district ? 
 
 I would simply state that I take Northampton and everything north of that 
 place, including the Isle of Skye, the Orkneys, and the Shetlands. 
 
 1 897. How many prisons are there within your inspection ? 
 
 I have 47 English prisons, the prisons in Scotland, large and small, are 
 altogether 72 ; but many of them are lock-ups, rather than prisons. 
 
 1898. How many visits do you pay in the course of the year ? 
 
 I make it a rule to visit every prison once a year ; some prisons I visit 
 oftener, according as any special question arises, or if I apprehend that there 
 is anything going on wrong, 1 visit it a second or a third time during the year. 
 But perhaps the Committee will allow me to state, that this year I think there 
 were four or five prisons, including those in the Isle of Skye and the Isle of 
 Lewis, that I did not visit. 
 
 1 899. Do you consider that the terms of the Act of Parliament, under which 
 you act, are so fur obligatory upon you, that they require one visit in every 12 
 months ? 
 
 If 1 remember rightly, the terms of the Act are, that we shall visit from time 
 to time ; it does not specify once in every year. 
 
 1900. What are the causes in general of an extra visit to any prison ? 
 
 It may be to investigate any complaints that may arise. I have within the 
 last week received a letter from a prisoner in Manchester gaol, making a com- 
 plaint of his treatment. I forwarded it to the visiting justices, stating that I 
 should not be able to go down for the next 10 days, as I did not know when 
 
 (37. (i.) Z my 
 
 Evidence en 
 Prison Discipliner 
 
 H. P. Voulcs, Esq- 
 
 24th March j8(33.
 
 178 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H. p. Voules, Esq. my presence here might cease to be required. In ordinary cases I sijould 
 
 , ,, r „^ have visited that prison to investigate the complaint. 
 54th March 1863. r & t 
 
 — -— 1901. Do you give notice of your arrival ? 
 
 Never, unless it is desirable for any special purpose to meet the visiting jus- 
 tices ; then, of course, I must write to request them to be kind enough to 
 meet me. 
 
 IQ02. Your visits are not at stated times in the year ? 
 No, not at stated times. 
 
 1903. How large a portion of the year does the actual visiting and inspection 
 consume ? 
 
 I live in my district, and divide the travelling as much as possible. I go out 
 more frequently in the summer; but my visits of inspection extend tliroughout 
 the year. In winter I am out, say, once a week probably, whereas in the summer 
 I may be out on an average three days in the week, i have latel}' had occa- 
 sion to look into that, and I think it was 142 days that 1 was out last year, 
 engaged in inspection. 
 
 1904. How do you proceed in drawing up your report ; do you draw your 
 report at the time whilst the visit is immediately fresb in your memory, or do 
 you take notes, and subsequently compile your report from them ? 
 
 I m;ike notes for my report; it would be impossible to draw up the annual 
 report until I receive certain returns at the close of the year as to the wliole 
 number of prisoners. You cannot draw an average as to re-commitments, and 
 so on, until the returns are made up in each prison at the end of the year. 
 
 1905. In that case the report is framed at some time subsequent to the visit, 
 is it not ? 
 
 That is the case with regard to the statistical portion of the report; but the 
 observations and the remarks upon the discipline are made at the time of my 
 visit. 
 
 1 qo6. Is it your practice to leave any record of your comments in the prison ? 
 
 It is not. 
 
 1007. Is it your practice to hold any communication with the visiting 
 justices ? 
 
 I communicate with them if I see any cause for doing so. Aiy practice has 
 been perhapi different from that of some other inspectors, inasmuch as I have 
 generally conferred with the visiting justices instead of making a rej)ort 
 direct to the Home Office, although I believe that in doing so I am not 
 actina: in strict accordance with the directions to the inspectors ; but I have 
 foiuid that I get more done by d(jing so than by simply making an otiicial 
 repoit. 
 
 19(18. Do you not, in fact, think that even carrjdng that process one step 
 further, if your report were to be laid before the court of quarter sessions, it 
 would be productive of very great advantage ? 
 
 I think generally the justices dislike any complaint or any observation laid 
 before them in print. They receive with a much better grace a letter coming 
 from myself as conferring with them. 
 
 1909. Have you found that your communications with the visiting justices 
 have led in general to the correction of any evil or abuse which you iiave 
 pointed out, or to any change which you have thought desirable r 
 
 \\ ben 1 have conununicated directly with the visiting justices I have found 
 geneially that they are disposed to carry out any improvement that I may 
 suggest ; that is more especially the case in the counties. In the borough 
 gaols it is different, because the magistrates there have not the same power. 
 The town council alone controlling the expenditure, the juagistrates cannot 
 enforce any order which would render an outlay of money necessary. 
 
 i()io. Are your comimunications with the visiting justices in genei'al verbal 
 or written ? 
 
 Our communications are generally verbal. They sometimes ask me to put 
 the matter in writing, in ord« r that they may lay it before their colleagues ; 
 
 but
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 179 
 
 but I seldom meet a visiting justice in a g-aol, unless I write beforehand to H. P. Vonles, Etq, 
 him ; there must necessarily,"therefore, be written communications also. ^i~l, 
 
 11)11. From whom do you anticipate that objections would arise if your '^^^ "'''^ 3- 
 report were laid before the quarter sessions ; from the visiting justices, or from 
 the magistrates generally ? 
 
 I think that it places the inspector at issue with the magistrates, and I do 
 not think it is well received if made as a complaint, however well founded that 
 complaint may be. 
 
 iQiJ. Practically, does the complaint ever come to the knowledge of the 
 magistracy ? 
 
 If I make a special report to the Secretary of State, the practice is to send 
 down that report, for the magistrates to report upon it. 
 
 jgi.'j. Duke of Marlborough.'] Then, in fact, it is your opinion, is it not, that 
 a report to be presented to the quarter sessions would be better received by the 
 magistrates in quarter sessions, if it came from the Secretary of State, rather 
 than from you ? 
 
 Not if it should appear as a special report or complaint by the inspector ; 
 I communicate with the visiting justices, not with the quarter sessions ; I 
 have no power to do so ; and the visiting justices lay my letter before the 
 quarter sessions, recommending any suggestion of mine or not, as they may 
 think fit. 
 
 1914. The noble Chairman put a question to you as to whether you thought 
 that there would be any objection on the part of the justices to receive a report 
 from you in quarter sessions ; did I rightly understand you to refer in your 
 answer to that question to any special report as regards any complaint made in 
 a gaol, or to the general usual report of your annual visit } 
 
 I have no authority to make a special report to the quarter sessions : I only 
 write a letter, making suggestions to the visiting justices ; 1 have no authority 
 whatever to address the quarter sessions. 
 
 1915. Did I rightly understand you to state that you considered it might not 
 be well received by the magistrates in quarter sessions, if your report was made 
 to them ? 
 
 Yes ; for it could only appear before them as a special report to the Secre- 
 tary of State. 
 
 igi6. Earl Cathcart.] Are you acquainted with the system adopted by the 
 Lunacy Commissioners in their inspections ? 
 
 I know so little of it that I would not venture to say that I am acquainted 
 with it. 
 
 1917. Chairman.] In 1850 it was not the practice for an inspector of prisons 
 to see the criminal returns of his district pi-evious to the compilation of his 
 report. Is that the case now r 
 
 I do not receive any returns except those which I obtain from the prison 
 itself. The statistical returns are not issued until probably the same time as 
 the inspector's report. 
 
 1918. Have you ever considered whether it would be an improvement on 
 the present system if you were to exchange the visitation of your district alter- 
 nately with another iuspector? 
 
 I think, on the contrary, it is desirable that we should know as much 
 as possible of the prison, and of the prison ofHcers, and of the population. I 
 think that there is a great advantage in knowing something of the people. 
 
 1919. Is there not, on the other hand, some advantage in bringing a fresh 
 mind very often to bear upon the details which have grown familiar, and which 
 possibly receive less consideration in consequence ? 
 
 The inspectors frequently meet, and talk over any point that arises. I have 
 now only one colleague, and 1 talk over with him any question upon which 
 1 entertain a doubt. 
 
 1Q20. I presume, from what you have stated that it is your opinion that two 
 inspectors are sufficient to discharge all the work that has to be done in 
 England ? 
 
 (37. G.) z 2 I undertook
 
 180 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 B. P. Voules, Esq. I undertook to do it, feeling that I could visit the prisons as required by the 
 Act of Parliament. 
 
 J4th March 1863. 
 
 ]9'2i. Do not very great discrepancies exist, both in the system and in the 
 construction of prisons ? 
 
 All new prisons are now built on the separate system. 
 
 1922. But are there not many prisons within your district in Avhich the 
 systems var}^ ? 
 
 I have several in my district in which they have only a limited number 
 of cells certified for separate confinement, and some of those are certified for 
 limited periods, such as one month or three months. 
 
 1923. Does not association prevail in a great many prisons ? 
 
 In several of the prisons. I have a return here which shows, for instance, 
 that in Chester City Gaol there are only 28 separate cells ; at Derby they are 
 all associated, but with separate sleeping cells; at Kirkdale there are only 162 
 separate cells ; at Liverpool and Manchester they are all separate ; at Preston 
 there are only 168 separate cells; and at Salford New Bailey there are 101 
 separate cells, the daily average number in Salford, for instance, being 491, so 
 that there are a large number in association. They are now building a new 
 gaol ui^on the separate system, at Salford ; at Preston they are building a new 
 wing upon the separate system, and at Kirkdale two new wings. 
 
 ]y2d. In the Welsh gaols which fall imder your notice, is the separate system 
 generally prevailing t 
 
 Wales is not now in my district, but it was so until Sir John Kincaid's death 
 last year ; there was only one prison in the whole of my district in Wales in 
 which they had any separate cells, that exception was in Merionethshire, at 
 Dolgelly. 
 
 1925. In all the others it was the system of association under different 
 conditions ? 
 
 Yes, it was the system of association. 
 
 1926. Since you have been an inspector, has the separate system increased 
 
 considerably ? 
 Very largely. 
 
 1927. Do you think that on the part of the magistrates there is a favourable 
 view entertained of its working ? 
 
 Yes, I can now mention that from the county of Lancashire alone I have 
 received plans within the last week for building one new wing at Preston, and 
 two new wings at Kirkdale ; and I find it generally the case that wherever the 
 separate system has been tried they strive as soon as possible to have the whole 
 of the prison on the separate system. 
 
 1928. Do you beheve that the separate system is the best form of prison 
 discipline ? 
 
 1 think it is the only safe foundation for prison discipline ; but it would not 
 be right to extend it too far. 
 
 1929. What are the objections which have prevented the introduction of the 
 separate system into Wales ? 
 
 Simply that they have old prisons there, and are unwilling to incur the 
 expense of rebuilding ; but I believe since I have given up that district they 
 are about to build in Montgomeryshire a new prison, which will be on the 
 separate system. 
 
 1 930. Under the Act of the 5th and 6th of the Queen is not power given for 
 the amalgamation of borough prisons with county prisons ? 
 
 It is. 
 
 1931. Are you aware whether that Act has been taken advantage of? 
 
 In several counties ; for instance, in Derbyshire there is only one gaol for the 
 town and county. 
 
 1Q32. Looking to the fact that many borough prisons are very small, are you 
 
 not of opini(m tiiat it is the most effective and most economical arrangement 
 
 that they should be amalgamated with the county prisons ? 
 
 I think
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 181 
 
 I think it would be very desirable in most cases ; but the borough magistrates H. P, Voulet, Esq^ 
 
 are very unwilling to give up the little patronage and power that they have in 
 
 their borough gaols. 24th Maicli 1863. 
 
 '933- Is there not a provision in the Act which would arrange for a joint 
 council of visiting justices under those circumstances ? 
 
 I think that would be very dangerous ; in most cases where I have had the 
 opportunity of meeting them in that way, I find that they never pull well 
 together. 
 
 1934. Is there any objection, as a general rule, on the part of the county? 
 
 I can hardly say on which side the objection arises, but the two bodies are 
 so differently constituted, that they never could agree ; they take different 
 views. In one instance, I took upon myself to bring the county and borough 
 magistrates together, and I found it did not answer. 
 
 1935. Is it not the fact, that the Secretary of State has no power under any 
 existing Act to require the removal of prisoners from a borough prison to a 
 county prison ? 
 
 He cannot compel it. 
 
 1936. Would it, in your opinion, be desirable to entrust such a power to the 
 Secretary of State ? 
 
 On more than one occasion I have reported upon a borough prison as being 
 unfit to carry out sentences of hard labour for long periods ; and in such cases 
 they have been recommended to contract with the county. I would mention 
 Grantham, in Lincolnshire ; and Lynn, in Norfolk ; the period for which pri- 
 soners could be sent to those borough gaols was limited, and they contracted 
 with the county for the long- sentenced prisoners. 
 
 1937. But as I understand from your evidence, very little amalgamation 
 has as yet taken place between the small borough prisons and the county 
 ones ? 
 
 It would be very desirable that small borough gaols should contract with the 
 county for the maintenance of their prisoners ; but I am not aware that the 
 Secretary of State has any power to compel them to do so ; they do it of their 
 own accord. 
 
 1938. If such a power should ever be entrusted to the Secretary of State, 
 are you of opinion that there would be any practical objections or difficulties 
 in the way uf working such a provision ? 
 
 No, provided the county magistrates had the sole power ; otherwise there 
 would be this difficulty arising from it ; in the boroughs the town council 
 control the expenditure ; the magistrates have no control over them whatever ; 
 if there were a joint visitation by the county and borough magistrates, they 
 might frequently be at issue with the town council. 
 
 7939. Your opinion is, that whilst it would be a great advantage that such a 
 power should be vested in the Secretary of State, it is an indispensable con- 
 dition that the sole controlling jurisdiction should exist with the county magis- 
 trates ; is not that so ? 
 
 That is my opinion. 
 
 1940. Are there within your district any liberty prisons still existing r 
 There are three ; Peterborough, Ripon, and Halifax. 
 
 1941. Can you state to the Committee, whether there is any special circum- 
 -stance connected with those prisons, or what their condition generally is ? 
 
 At Ripon there are two gaols ; one is for criminals ; the other is the 
 debtors' prison. In the del:)tors' prison, although it is still kept up, they have 
 had no inmates for about five or six years. In the criminal prison they liave a 
 -very small number, and they are entii'ely on the associated system, and without 
 any employment. 
 
 1942. The greater portion of the liberty prisons were aboHshed some few 
 years ago, were they not ? 
 
 Yes ; about five or six years ago. 
 
 1943. How many years have you held an inspectorship of prisons? 
 
 (37. 6.) z 3 I was
 
 182 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ■ ,11. P. Vovles, Esq. I was appointed an inspector of prisons in 1851; but before that, I was 
 , ,; — ; „^ associated with Sir Joshua Jebb and Captain O'Brien, as one of the directors 
 24th IV.arch 18C3. of convict prisons. 
 
 1 944. During the time that you have held that office, are you of opinion that 
 there iias been any improvement in the class of persons who administer the 
 county and borough prisons, such as the governois and the chaplains, and the 
 other officers connected with the establishment ? 
 
 I think that the officers recently appointed are generally a better educated 
 class, and better quahfied to administer the affairs of the prison. 
 
 !945. Marquess of Salisbury.} With regard to borough magistrates, they are 
 not of necessity members of the town council, are they t 
 ]Sot of necessit3^ 
 
 1 946. Are the visiting justices of counties members of the quarter sessions r 
 They are members of the quarter sessions. 
 
 1 947. You are of opinion that there may be an antagonistic influence between 
 the borough magistrates and the town council ? 
 
 Ill the boroughs I have frequently found that to be the case. 
 
 194^. That antagonistic influence cannot, I presume, exist in the counties ? 
 It cannot. 
 
 1 049. And in consequence, therefore, there is not the same danger of anta- 
 gonistic influence between the county magistrates and the visiting justices as 
 exists in the boroughs? 
 
 Certainly not. 
 
 1950. Your opinion of the borough magistrates is not so favourable as of the 
 county magistrates '■: 
 Certainly not. 
 
 1 9.5 ' • Chairman.'] Are not a large proportion of the governors of gaols military 
 men - 
 
 In the larger gaols they are ; but not generally so. I have a few governors 
 now in my district who are military men ; but the gaols in Scotland are not in 
 the hands of military men. 
 
 1(^52. Would you be prepared to express an opinion favourable or unfavour- 
 able to the emplovment of mihtary men as governors r 
 
 I am an old soldier myself, and am, perhaps, prejudiced in favour of them. 
 
 1953. You would entertain no objection to the employment of military men 
 as governors ? 
 Decidedly not. 
 
 19.54. A very favourable opinion has been stated to us in evidence with 
 regard to the system of promoting men from amongst the subordinate officials 
 of the prison to the rank of governor ; is that, in your opinion, a desirable 
 mode of procedure? 
 
 I do not think it is generally desirable. 
 
 10.15. Do vou think that the class of men from, whom the subordinate 
 officials of prisons are taken, are a class who are veryehgible for the duties and 
 res]K)tisibilities of governors ? 
 
 Generally speaking, they are not ; but I could mention one or two exceptions. 
 
 igif). Would you say that the routine of a prison subordinate is an educa- 
 tion whi(;h would naturally tend to fashion his mind for the duties of a 
 governor ? 
 
 I think th.at an old soldier having a perfect knowledge of discipline, would 
 very soon learn the prison routine, and I think it often operates unfavourably if 
 a siibordiiiate officer is inomoted to be the governor of a gaol ; his old asso- 
 ciates, the other subordinate officers, do not respect him or treat him in the same 
 -way tliat they would a better educated person. 
 
 i9-,7. Are there not many qualities which belong to military men, as a class, 
 
 which are verv valuable in the government of prisons ? 
 
 Yes.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 183 
 
 Yes, I think there are many ; not only the knowledge of discipline, but the H. P. Vuules, Esq. 
 
 habit of acting promptly and investigating complaints, and having a general 
 
 knowledge of character, all assist a military man very much. ^'*'** March 1863. 
 
 1958. Do you believe that it is possible, and if possible desirable, that a 
 governor should be acquainted with the individual characters and the minutiae 
 of the prisoners who are entrusted to him ? 
 
 I think that it is his duty to study the characters of the i)risoners. Of course 
 in the case of those prisoners who have short sentences, there is no time to do 
 so ; but if the governor will take the trouble, he may exercise a very salutary 
 influence over the prisoners by talking to them, finding out the weak sides of 
 their characters, and taking advantage of anything he may observe. 
 
 1959. From your experience of the chaplains as a class, are you of opinion 
 that they are equal to the duties of their position ? 
 
 I know man}' chaplains who have great influence with the prisoners, and who 
 exercise it very usefully ; but I think that in the appointment of chaplains, the 
 practice has been too much to look to a man's being a serious and good man 
 without looking sufficiently to other requirements, such as tact and knowledge 
 of the world and knowledge of character ; these are quite essential in order to 
 obtain any influence with prisoners. 
 
 1 960. Does not the chaplain very often take some part in the administration 
 of a prison, beyond spiritually ministering to the prisoners ? 
 
 It is not desirable that he should do so. I think it is very desirable to 
 separate the discipline and the moral instruction ; so much so that I have 
 always recommended the schoolmasters should not be called upon to make a 
 report of a prisoner ; there should be a discipline officer present in school to 
 report any misconduct ; the prisoners should be taught to look upon the 
 chaplain and the schoolmaster as their friends, and as having nothing whatever 
 to do with the discipline. 
 
 1961. Has it not fallen sometimes within your cognizance that a chaplain has 
 taken upon himself in no inconsiderable degree the administration of the prison 
 details ? 
 
 I cannot call to mind any case in which the chaplain has improperly inter- 
 fered. I may have heard of it, but at this moment 1 do not remember any 
 instance. 
 
 1962. Are the Committee to understand that, in your opinion, the province 
 of a chaplain should be strictly limited to spiritual ministrations and instruc- 
 tion? 
 
 Certainly. 
 
 1963. Marquess of Sul/s/mr!/.] Has it come to your knowledge that chaplains 
 have interfered in obtaining a remission of sentences from the Secretary of 
 State ? 
 
 I have known instances of chaplains making such a recommendation to the 
 visiting justices, but never jiassing beyond that. 
 
 1 gf^4. Earl Ducie.] Are you aware that it is a common practice for the 
 borough magistrates to contract with the county magistrates for the mainte- 
 nance of their prisoners .' 
 
 It is frequently done. 
 
 ■ 196,'). Are you of opinion that that is a good arrangement r 
 It is very desirable ; for, in a small borough gaol, they cannot carry out the 
 discipline properly. 
 
 1966. Does that system, to the best of your knowledge, work well? 
 
 It does. It is far better that they should contract with the county than that 
 they should have a joint authority. 
 
 1967. Have the borough magistrates ever come into collision with the county 
 authorities in such cases r 
 
 No ; the borough magistrates resign their authority, they merely pay for 
 maintenance of the prisoners. 
 
 1968. Duke oi Marlborough.] Are there a good many borough prisons within 
 (37. 6.) z 4 your
 
 184 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ■H. P. Vowles, Esq. your district which )'ou would consider to be badly managed prisons, and not to 
 
 be desirable places for the confinement of prisoners ? 
 
 24th March 1 863, gome of them have not the means of carrying out a good system of discipline. 
 ■ I would not go so far as to say that they are badly managed ; because, if I 
 
 found them badly managed, it would be my duty to make a special report con- 
 cerning them. 
 
 1969. Are there a good many in that condition ? 
 
 Not a great many ; but I have not a large number of borough prisons in my 
 district. 
 
 1970. Lord Steward.~\ Have you had occasion to make any reports with 
 reference to that ? 
 
 On one or two occasions I have i*ecommended that they should contract with 
 the county for the maintenance of their long sentenced prisoners, and it has 
 been done. 
 
 1971. D\\keoi MarlborotighJ] Supposing you found a borough gaol in a con- 
 dition which you would not think a suitable one for the prisoners, what would 
 be the course that you would take under those circumstances ? 
 
 The course which I have adopted generally is to communicate, in the first 
 instance, with the magistrates ; and, if I found them unwilling to make the 
 required additions to the gaol, or to enter into a contract with the county for 
 the maintenance of their prisoners, 1 should then make a special report to the 
 Secretary of State. 
 
 J 972. That special report having gone to the Secretary of State, what power 
 would he have of remedying the state of things of which you have com- 
 plained } 
 
 I am afraid that the Secretary of State has very little power to enforce any 
 thing of that sort ; the utmost that he can do, 1 imagine, is to indict them for 
 a misdemeanor for disobeying an Act of Parliament. 
 
 1973. Are you aware of any instance in whicli the Secretary of State has 
 ever resorted to that extreme measure ? 
 
 I am not aware of any such instance. 
 
 1974. As the case now stands, are there still borough prisons, with regard to 
 which you have been obliged to make reports of that nature, and where that 
 evil has not been remedied ? 
 
 No ; the evil has been remedied as far as practicable. 
 
 1975. In what way ? 
 
 Either by making additions to the gaol, or by additions to the staff of the 
 prison, or by contracting with the county. I should mention, as an example, 
 Grantham in Lincolnshire. I found that prison insufficient to carry out the 
 sentences. The superintendent of police for the borough was also the governor 
 of the gaol, and as he could not be in two places at once, the duties of the gaol 
 were frequently neglected. I communicated with the magistrates, and with 
 the inspector of constabulary ; the result was that they built a few additional 
 cells, and ;.])pointed another "governor, leaving the superintendent of police to 
 his duties of a police officer alone. 
 
 1076. Are the Committee to understand, that as the result of your recom- 
 inrn'"(lati<)ns to the borough magis^trates, you are satisfied with the condition of 
 all the borough gaols in your district? 
 
 No, I should like to level m.any of them to the ground, and rebuild them ; it 
 is impossible, with some of the present buildings, to have any good system of 
 discipline carried out. 
 
 1977. You stated, did yi)U not, that when you have found the buildings in- 
 sufficient, vou have recommended an alteration or enlargement ? 
 
 That was where I found them overcrowded ; but we have now in York City 
 a very bad gaol. The men are always in association during the day. It would 
 be impossil)le from the construction" of that gaol to carry out any good system 
 of discipline. 
 
 i()7S. 'I hose are cases where a new gaol must be built, before any improve- 
 ment can be made ? _,. 
 
 Yes,
 
 24th March 5865. 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 185 
 
 Yes, it is the faulty construction alone, which prevents a better system -ff- P- Vouks, Enq, 
 being adopted. 
 
 1979. Have you represented that fact to the borough magistrates ? 
 I have frequently talked to the magistrates about it. 
 
 1980. Have you found them willing to entertain your plan of having a new 
 gaoi ? 
 
 No, I have not found them disposed to rebuild that gaol ; but I have found 
 them disposed to take the next best step, namely, to make any practicable im- 
 provement they could in the old gaol. 
 
 1 98 1 . Do you consider that any improvements are capable of being made in 
 that instance ? 
 
 There may be improvements made, but not sufficient to satisfy me. 
 
 1982. How long has that state of things existed ? 
 That was the state of things many years ago, when York was in my district, 
 
 and it is only this last year that I have assumed the charge of that district 
 again. 
 
 1983. Do you find things still in the same state? — Yes, still in the same 
 state, excepting that they have a better governor than they had before. 
 
 1984. Have you any hopes that the magistrates will consent to rebuild that 
 borough gaol, and put things on a better footing? 
 
 I have no expectation that they will rebuild that gaol. 
 
 1985. Is the state of things which exists there very deleterious to the 
 prisoners ? 
 
 I cannot go to that extent ; I merely say that it would be impossible to carry 
 out there what I call a good system of discipline, that is, separating the pri- 
 soners at all times ; and I am of opinion that prisoners placed in association 
 frequently go out worse than they come into prison. 
 
 1986. Are the Committee to understand you to say, that from that associa- 
 tion at present existing, and likely to continue in that gaol, a good deal of 
 injury would exist with regard to the prisoners themselves, as you say they 
 come out worse than they go in. 
 
 Perhaps I have gone too far in saying that they come out worse than they 
 go in ; but I will say that I think there can be but little improvement effected 
 in the prisoners. 
 
 1987. You very much deprecate the system of association, do you not? 
 Most decidedly. 
 
 1988. That is the system existing in that gaol? 
 It is. 
 
 1 989. And you see no means of obtaining a remedy ? 
 The only remedy I have applied there is, that I have obtained a better 
 
 supervision when the prisoners are in association. 
 
 1990. Unless the borough magistrates consent to build a new gaol, you see 
 no means by which the state of things could be improved ? 
 
 No. A governor wrote to me the other day about altering some cells ; 
 my answer was, that it would be useless, as I thought, to attempt to patch up 
 the old gaol ; the only way of making it a good gaol would be to rebuild 
 it altogether ; they would only tiirow money away if they expended it in 
 attempts at improvement. 
 
 1991. That being the state of things, if the law is insufficient at present to 
 provide a remedy, has any remedy suggested itself to you ? 
 
 The Secretary of State has no power to compel them to rebuild the gaol ? 
 
 1992. Should you think that power ought to exist in the Secretary of State, 
 either to require a proper gaol to be built, or to require the borough magis- 
 trates to take the advantage of the existing power to contract with the county 
 magistrates ? 
 
 I think that would be very desirable now that the separate system has had a 
 fair trial. Tormerly the cry of the borough magistrates would be, " It is merely 
 a new system, and, in order to try these experiments, you put us to the expense 
 
 (37. (i.) A A of
 
 186 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H. P. Voules, Esif. of building anew gaol." Many of them even now look upon the separate 
 1. »T T o^ system as merely an experiment. 
 
 24th March 1863. •! J I 
 
 1PP3- ^'ou do not consider it an experiment, do you ? 
 
 Decidedly not. 
 
 1994. You consider that its results have been permanently and satisfactorily 
 ascertained r 
 
 I think they have. 
 
 1995. So that no injustice would accrue to the magistrates if the power 
 existed of compelling them to build an entirely new gaol upon the separate 
 system ? 
 
 I do not think there would be any injustice in that. 
 
 1996. Do you know what number of prisoners are confined in York gaol ? 
 The average daily number last year was 30. The number committed during 
 
 the year 458. 
 
 1997. Earl RomneyJ] You stated, in answer to the Noble Duke, that the 
 results of the separate system had been thoroughly ascertained ; what are those 
 results ? 
 
 I stated that I thought it was the only safe foundation of prison discipline. 
 It would occupy too much time if I were to attempt to state what I consider 
 the advantages of the se|)arate system. In a few words, I may say that it forces 
 a man to reflect; it makes him feel that employment is a boon, and not a task ; 
 and it separates him from the contaminating influence of other prisoners. And 
 another ver}^ strong fact is, that it places him under the influence of the chap- 
 lain. In association, a prisoner is afraid to listen to any advice or instruction 
 from the chaplain ; he is laughed at, and there is notliing which a prisoner 
 dreads so much as ridicule ; but when he is in separate confinement, he will 
 listen to the chaplain calmly, and he has time to reflect upon what the chaplain 
 has said to him. 
 
 1998. The direct eff"ect of being separated is, that the prisoner cannot com- 
 municate with those from whom he is separated ; but my question was as to 
 the result ; what is the result of all that? 
 
 I consider that the number of recommittals in those gaols where the separate 
 system is carried out are fewer than they are in gaols carried on under the 
 associated system. 
 
 1 00)9. Are you able to say at all from whence that arises ? 
 
 1 think that the separate system has a great deal to do with it. 
 
 2000. By doing what upon the man, or upon the population in general ? 
 
 As I have stated just now, it gives a man time to reflect, and that reflection 
 leads to improvement. 
 
 200 1 . Do you think that the result of his being shut up in that way, and 
 having time to reflect is, that it makes him a better man r 
 
 Not that alone ; but that and all the other agencies that are employed. Cer- 
 tainly, a man is more likely to be improved under the separate system than he 
 is under the associated system, and men have told me at the time when I 
 inspected the hulks, " If 1 had been under the separate system, sir, I should 
 never have been here." In association, they become thoroughly hardened, and 
 they cannot contend against all the ridicule and other evil influencies that are 
 brought to bear upon them. 
 
 2002. Is it not the case that you find that those prisoners who have been in 
 separate confinement came into ])rison again ? 
 
 'I'he separate system is not infallible : I am afraid we shall not find any sys- 
 tem that will improve them all. 
 
 2003. But crime is not reduced, is it r 
 
 Crime was largelv on the decrease up to the year 1859; since then (and 
 I find it most difficult to trace the cause of it) there has been an increase of 
 crime again. i3ut if we take the last ten years we shall find that there has 
 been a large decrease in crime. 
 
 2004. Do
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 187 
 
 2004. Do you think that the separate system is more or less disagreeable to E. P. Vouks, Esq. 
 
 prisoners than the other system ? o^th March iSC-? 
 
 I think the advantage of the separate system is this, that the shoe pinches, 4 
 
 if 1 may use the expression, just where you require it — that is to say, a 
 thoroughly bad man cannot bear separation ; it is a severe punishment to him ; 
 but a man who is comparatively well disposed can not only bear the separation, 
 but he can benefit by it, and make a good use of his time. 
 
 2005. Do you think that a bad man dislikes it so much that he will not come 
 in again if lie can help it ? 
 
 I am afraid that many of our more hardened criminals cease to care much 
 about it when the pain ceases. The effects of any punishment upon a tho- 
 roughly hardened man will not continue much beyond the time during which he 
 is suffering pain, and therefore it is, I think, if we want to improve a man we 
 must bring two agencies to work — we must punish him, and at the same time 
 endeavour to improve and humanize him. 
 
 2006. What is the punishment under this system r 
 
 I think the loss of liberty itself is a great punishment, they feel it so. I see 
 constantly in letters from prisoners that they hold the loss of liberty as a great 
 trial. 
 
 2007. Do you think that that deters other people who have not been in 
 prison ? 
 
 I think that the separate system, combined with a strict discipline, is better 
 calculated to deter than any other system. We frequently find men dishke the 
 separate confinement so much that they would beg to be put on the wheel 
 ratlier than remain in a separate cell ; and I think the most severe punishment 
 you can inflict upon a man of that sort is to set him to pick oakum in a separate 
 cell. 
 
 2008. Where a man asks to be put upon the wheel, is not that because he is 
 on a low diet in a separate cell and has nothing to do ? 
 
 He would get no improvement in diet by going on the wheel ; but prisoners 
 like working in association, even though they cannot speak to each other ; the 
 mere feeling that they have a man working in the next compartment to them 
 does away with the irksomeness and monotony of the separate system. 
 
 2009. Lord Steward.'] Do you think it desirable that the separate system 
 should be carried out to the fullest extent ; that is to say, in school and in 
 chapel as well as at work ? 
 
 Decidedly not in chapel, I think. 
 
 20 in. Nor in the school ? 
 
 That depends upon the number attending the school ; if you can separate 
 them fully without, it would be desirable that the separate stall system should not 
 be carried out ; but generally they have not a sufficient number of officers to 
 control the prisoners, and the schoolmaster cannot do it himself ; they have only 
 one officer probably in the school, and if he has a hundred men there, they can 
 talk freely if they are not separated by stalls. 
 
 2011. Do you not know that in Leicester gaol the separate system is prac- 
 tically carried out in the chapel and the school-room as well as at work ? 
 
 Yes ; 1 disapprove of separate stalls in the chapel, and separate airing yards. 
 
 2012. 'E.Qxloi M(dmesbury.^^ What is your objection to their being separate 
 in chapel? , 
 
 One reason is, that the House of God is not the place where they should be 
 made to feel that they are prisoners in that sense ; but I think the effect upon 
 the prisoners is bad ; they listen to the service in a very different spirit when 
 tliey are shut up in those separate stalls ; with others it is a great trial from 
 the difficulty and constant strain in endeavouring to hear what is said ; many 
 of them give it up as hopeless. 
 
 2013. But you stated just now that they hstened with great attention to the 
 chaplain when they were in their separate cells ; why would they listen with less 
 attention to a clergyman when they are in separate stalls in the chapel ? ^ 
 
 The general instruction which they gather from the service is very di fferent 
 
 from the personal communication between the chaplain and the prisoner in the 
 
 (37.6.) Aa2 ceU.
 
 188 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H. P. Voules, Esq. cell. I VTRS Speaking of a chaplain going into a prisoner s cell to advise him and 
 ■ to talk to him. The course which the chaplain takes, if he understands his 
 
 34t h March 18 63. ^^^^^ j^ j-^q^ ^q gg jjj ^^^^i begin talking to a prisoner at once upon matters of 
 religion, but to make some observation on his work or on the books that he 
 is reading, and to draw him into conversation, and then take his own opportu- 
 nities of advising him ; leading the conversation in whatever way he desires. 
 
 2014. Then your opinion is, that they are less attentive to the clergyman in 
 the ]udpit when they are separated than when they are associated r 
 
 They are less attentive ; and there is a constant strain from the difficulty of 
 hearing. I have gone for experiment into those separate stalls, and have had 
 great difficulty in hearing. 
 
 2015. Marques?, oi Salisbiiri/.] Does not that objection rather relate to the 
 building itself than to the system ? 
 
 To the separate stalls in the chapel. 
 
 2016. To all separate stalls in the chapel ? 
 
 In some gaols, they have a separate stall for each man in the chapel ; he is 
 shut in with a spring. 
 
 2017. Does that always interfere with his hearing the clergyman ? 
 
 They are surrounded on three sides, and there is a sort of hanging board 
 over head, which causes such confusion that it is difficult to hear. 
 
 2018. Without the board over the man's head, would the same echo be 
 produced ? 
 
 No ; but that board is necessary to prevent the prisoner behind from seeing 
 the man immediately below him. 
 
 2019. Earl of Malniesbun/.] Do the prisoners complain that they have great 
 difficulty in hearing under those circumstances ? 
 
 I have heard complaints to that effect. 
 
 2020. Chairman.'] Do your objections to the separation in chapel resolve 
 themselves into a mechanical objection ? 
 
 Not simply so. I think that we should do all we can while the prisoners are 
 in chapel to humanize them. Experience tells me that where the prisoners 
 are brought as they are in Stafford prison, in Chester Castle, and in some 
 other prisons, into a chapel fitted in the ordinary way of a village church, 
 they are far more attentive than they would be if separated; and tluy do not 
 attempt to communicate. 
 
 2021. As a rule, do you approve of the separation of prisoner from prisoner 
 in the school-room ? 
 
 It is desirable, generally, from the want of insufficient supervision in the 
 school. 
 
 2022. Is that the only ground on which you would recommend that sepa- 
 ration in the school-room i 
 
 I think it would be better if they were in open sittings, provided they had 
 sufficient supervision. 
 
 2023. Is it not possible in the school -room to have the same amount of super- 
 vision as you would approve of in the chapel ? 
 
 It would be possible, but you would require a larger staff of officers, the pri- 
 soners are only in the chapel for three quarters of an hour or an hour perhajis, 
 once a day ; in the school they are two hours or two hours and a half in the 
 morning, and the same time in the afternoon. 
 
 2024. Lord Steward.] Is not the chapel generally used as the school-room ? 
 It is, generally. 
 
 2025. Lord Lyvedcn.] In your district, is there generally separation in chapel 
 or not ? 
 
 No ; they are doing awav with the separate stalls in the majority of places. 
 Tliey have done away with them at Pentonville, at Wakefield, and some other 
 prisons. 
 
 2026. By whose orders ? 
 
 The magistrates have done it in the county prisons. 
 
 2027. Lord
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON' PRISON DISCIPLINE. 189 
 
 2027. Lord IFode/iouse.'] On the recommendation of the inspector? H. P. J'oitks, Esi/. 
 I think not. The only case in which I interfered was when they were building 
 
 the new gaol at Liverpool ; they wished to have separate stalls, and I advised ''^^ ^ ^"''^ ' ^' 
 
 them strongly against it. I could do no more than suggest or advise. Some 
 
 of the magistrates were very anxious to have separate stalls ; however, there 
 
 was a division, and ultimately they agreed to refer it to Sir Joshua Jebb, 
 
 knowing that he was the parent of the separate system ; to their surprise he 
 
 -agreed entirely with me, and said he would recommend that they should have 
 
 open sittings. 
 
 2028. Marquess of Salishnry.'] You stated, did you not, that you conceived 
 the separate system to be a greater punishment than hard labour ? 
 
 I think that to a badly disposed prisoner the most severe punishment that you 
 can give him is to put him in a cell, without any employment at all. A pri- 
 soner, if put into a cell without employment, wiU ask for work, the time hangs 
 so very heavy on his hands. 
 
 2029. Chairman.'] With reference to the separation in chapel, are you not of 
 opinion that any partition must be some obstruction, at all events to communi- 
 cation passing between the prisoners ? 
 
 I think separate stalls or partitions tempt the men to communicate, the super- 
 vision is better when they are in open seats, than when they are partlv separated 
 by stalls. 
 
 2030. Lord Steward.'] Is not one great advantage of the separate system, 
 that the prisoners do not even see each other, and know each other by sight, 
 when they come out of prison ? 
 
 But how has that been carried out ? It has been found impracticable ; at 
 Pentonvillc, for instance, the prisoners are not allowed to see each other, but 
 the moment they are removed to the public works they can see and associate 
 with each other. But more than that, the prisoners have a language that we 
 none of us can understand. They cough and knock at their cells or at their 
 stalls ; they have an alphabet of their own by which they can carry on com- 
 munications which we cannot understand. We can only hope to prevent con- 
 tamination ; we cannot altogether prevent communication. 
 
 2031. Chairman.] Do not you believe that in those chapels in which the 
 partitions have been removed, communications pass very freely between prisoner 
 and prisoner? 
 
 Not so much so as in chapels where the stalls have been retained ; I think 
 that the prisoners are less disposed to attempt to communicate when they are 
 in open seats ; and more than that, I think the supervision is much better. 
 
 2032. Are there not extraordinary facilities for communicating during the 
 moments of the responses, or at the time that the singing is going on in the 
 chapel ? 
 
 1 have known prisoners chaunt what they desired to say to the tune of the 
 chaunt. 
 
 2033. Would not that process be far easier where there are no partitions in 
 the way than where there is a separation ? 
 
 I think they would be more readily heard by an officer sitting amongst them, 
 than if they were in separate boxes. 
 
 2034. Would you be surprised to know that in some gaols the prisoners have 
 -spoken to the governor of the gaol, and have requested to be removed from the 
 stalls, and the seat which they previously occupied, on the ground of the in- 
 decent communications that were continually made to them by their fellow 
 prisoners ? 
 
 I have heard of a complaint being made by a prisoner, that the man in the 
 -next stall endeavoured to communicate with him, and he begged that he might 
 be removed. That was not at all an uncommon occurrence at Pentonville in 
 former days, when it was first built. 
 
 2035. Does it not follow that the communication must be in a much louder 
 tone of voice if a stall interposes between two men? 
 
 When they are in open sittings the officers are brought nearer to them, and 
 can hear the communications better than when they are in separate stalls. 
 
 (37. G.) A A 3 2036. Is
 
 190 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H. P- I'ottles, Esq. 2036. Is it not perfectly possible for one, or two, or three officers, if neces- 
 
 • sary, to be posted on a bridge over head, trora whence they can look down upon 
 
 24th March 1863. ^.j^^ actions of the prisoners, provided the prisoners are in separate stalls? 
 ■ ■ The best arrangement that is possible is made with the staff we have ; but 
 
 you require a very large staff to watch every man closely, so that he cannot com- 
 municate. It is impossible altogether to prevent communication; therefore I 
 would endeavour to raise the prisoners, and not degrade them. The more you 
 degrade a man the worse he will become, and the more likely he would be to 
 make such indecent communications as have been referred to. 
 
 20,37. Therefore your objection resolves itself rather into a moral objection 
 than anything else ? 
 
 I think it is objectionable, both in a moral point of view, and also as a matter 
 of discipUne. 
 
 2038. You of course have been aware that there have been some chaplains 
 who have acquired an extraordinary power over the lorisoners ; Mr. Clay, at 
 Preston, for instance, and others, and that a considerable influence has very 
 often been produced by their preaching ? 
 
 I think Mr. Clay did exercise great influence with the prisoners ; but they 
 would not have listened to him with the same attention had they not seen him 
 in their separate cells, and had he not there made the prisoners feel that he 
 was their friend and adviser as well as their minister. 
 
 2039. You are probably aware that during the course of his preaching the 
 prisoners constantly gave signs of very great emotion by tears and otherwise ? 
 
 I have seen such effects produced. 
 
 2040. Would there not, therefore, be this advantage in the existence of par- 
 titions, that the emotion would be unseen, and consequently would not be so 
 much suppressed, as it must necessarily be suppressed, if the prisoners were 
 sitting in open chapel, with the knowledge that every sign and look that they 
 gave would be observed by their companions ? 
 
 I think that many prisoners who give way to emotion in that way have per- 
 fect power to control themselves ; in fact, such signs of emotion are frequently 
 exhibited by great hypocrites in order to court favour with the chaplain ; I 
 think that the large majority could control any such feeling, although they may 
 give way to it when they go into their cells. 
 
 2041. Therefore you would feel very suspicious of any great emotion or 
 demonstration of that sort ? 
 
 It would depend very much upon my knowledge of the prisoner. I meet 
 among the prisoners very weak-minded men, who would not have power to 
 control their emotion ; but I am now speaking of those who have more power 
 over themselves, and who are, as prisoners, better educated than the others. 
 
 2042. For those who have not the proper control, you do not see any advan- 
 tage in the partition ? 
 
 No ; it is sacrificing the number to the few, for 1 think there are very few 
 who would give way to emotion. By having the open sittings, you raise the 
 prisoners, and confer a benefit upon a large number. 
 
 2043. Does not that argument suppose that the majority go away having 
 profited very little by the service ? 
 
 My belief is, that the majority of prisoners when they make professions in 
 prison are sincere at the time," but they have no moral courage to carry out 
 their i)rofessions, and resist the temptations to which they are exposed when 
 they go out ; one of the <ireatest trials to them is the ridicule of their old asso- 
 ciates^ If we had more widely spread over England such institutions as the one 
 at Birmingham (the Discharged Prisoners' Aid Society), it would do more good 
 thun anything else. "What we want is a helping hand to be held out to the 
 prisoner wlien he comes out of gaol. 
 
 2044. Duke of Murlhoroiiijh.'] To recur to the subject of borough gaols, are 
 there many other borough gaols in your district of a defective construction 
 analagous to what you were stating ; was that the case with regard to York ?^ 
 
 Some of the best gaols we have are the borougli gaols of Leeds, Liver- 
 pool, and Manchester. At Hull they have added some separate cells, and 
 
 they
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 191 
 
 they carry out a better discipline now than they did formerly. It was con- B. P. Vovles, Esq. 
 
 ducted on the associated principle when I first went there in 1851 ; and I .' : ^. 
 , ,. ,, , , . . ^ , / ... J. ^ ^, . 24th March 1863. 
 beheve that the association had a very injurious etlcct upon tlie prisoners. 
 
 Northampton borough gaol is also a very well-conducted gaol. 
 
 2045. Have you a large number of borough gaols in your district? 
 
 Not a large number. For instance, at Stafford there is only one gaol for the 
 whole county and borough ; but at Walsall and Newcastle-under-Lyne, I found, 
 when I went there., that tliey kept the prisoners in the common police cells for 
 three or four weeks, without any means of carrying out the discipline. The 
 mayor at Walsall told me that he had brought the matter before the local 
 authorities, and as they were about to build a new court-house, they proposed 
 also to build a new gaol ; it would depend upon their carrying that proposal, 
 whether they sent their prisoners to Stafford, or kept them at Walsall. In the 
 mean time, they will never keep a man there beyond seven days ; but that 
 is not a borough gaol, it is a mere police station. 
 
 20.i6. You have mentioned some instances where your advice has been 
 attended to, and where improvements have in consequence been effected ; but 
 there are a large number of borough gaols within your district, are there not ? 
 
 Not a great number. 
 
 2047. Can you state the number ? 
 Thirteen. 
 
 2048. Does that include Scotland? 
 
 No ; I may say, we have no borough gaols. 
 
 2049. Do you consider that the great defect at present existing in the 
 borough gaols is rather the associated system, whereas you would recommend 
 the separate system? 
 
 That is geiierally the case. The Manchester City and the Liverpool and 
 Leeds Borough gaols are on the separate system, and they are well conducted 
 gaols ; I have not the same fault to find with them ; generally speaking, the 
 faults are more in the construction than in the discipline. 
 
 2050. You would therefore consider it very great improvement if, by any 
 means, the separate system could be introduced into all borough gaols ? 
 
 Decidedly. 
 
 2051. Especially in towns of large size where there is a large number of 
 prisoners likely to be brought together? 
 
 Yes ; in boroughs, perhaps, it is even more desirable to separate the prisoners 
 than in counties. 
 
 2052. Is it not the case that even where the mayor of a borough and one or 
 two of the common councilmen may be public spirited and desire to see im- 
 provement when any of those improvements are suggested which involve a 
 considerable amount of expense, such as either rebuilding, or altering, or 
 enlarging the borough gaol, they do meet with a great deal of opposition from 
 the other members of the Council, or with general opposition in the town 
 itself ? 
 
 Yes ; and to show how strongly that is the case, I will mention that in one 
 gaol I found fault with the insufficient number of blankets, and that they had 
 only one towel to every six men. I spoke to two magistrates about it, and 
 each said, " I will not order it, for the last thing I ordered the Town Council 
 made me pay for it ;" the magistrates refused to order the things in conse- 
 quence. 
 
 2053. You do not consider that Town Councils are of all bodies the best 
 in the world to take a liberal and public spirited view with regard to prison 
 discipline ? 
 
 I think they are not ; but I should mention that the Town Council have no 
 authority in the gaol, it is the magistrates who have the authority in the 
 gaol. 
 
 2054. The Town Council would have to assist in any expenditure, would 
 they not ? 
 
 Yes, but they cannot interfere with the gaol, they cannot order any expendi- 
 (37.C>-; Aa4 ture
 
 192 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H. P. v,ndes, Esq. ture without the magistrates, it must come first by order of the magistrates, 
 
 and then go to the Town Council to be approved by them as a sort of Finance 
 
 24t h March 186 3. Committee. 
 
 no.55. In fact, there is a double difficulty : the difficulty of obtaining the 
 consent of the magistrates, in the first instance, and then the difficulty of 
 obtaining the consent of the Town Council to the expense ? 
 
 Yes, that is the difficulty, that it should be in two hands instead of in one. 
 
 2056. Chairman.'] The Committee have had a great deal of evidence from 
 different witnesses with regard to the system of liard labour, as administered 
 in different prisons. I presume that the labour in your district may be divided 
 into hard labour and light labour — hard labour comprising the treadwheel, the 
 crank and such occupations as stone-breaking, and light labour consisting of 
 industrial occupation ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2057. Do you generally approve of the treadwheel as an instrument of 
 punishment r 
 
 I do not ; I think that it is far better to carry out the separation, and to 
 keep the men employed separately. 
 
 2058. Would you state very briefly what your objection is to the treadwheel ? 
 I just now stated that the prisoners are brought together at the treadwheel, 
 
 and they would infinitely prefer working in association (even though they have 
 very little opportunity of communicating with each other), to any monotonous 
 work such as oakum picking in their own cells. 
 
 2059. Therefore the principal objection is the association, which in your 
 opinion is inivolved in the use of the treadwheel ? 
 
 That is not the sole objection. I speak generally ; my experience has left 
 that impression upon my mind, but it is difficult to explain how it has caused 
 me to form that opinion. I have paid some attention to the subject, having 
 been connected with, since the year 1842, prison discipline, and tliat is the 
 general impression which I have arrived at. 
 
 •2o6u. Do you believe that the use of the treadwheel is too severe physically 
 for the men ? 
 
 I think that very many prisoners are more or less affected with heart disease, 
 and 1 think that it is decidedly dangerous to put a man so affected on the 
 treadwheel. A case happened about five years ago, where a man dropped 
 down dead at the wheel. The surgeon who examined him said he saw no 
 reason to take idm off the treadwheel ; after he had been working there about 
 two months, he dropped down dead. 
 
 2061. Is it not the surgeon's duty, to examine any man who complains when 
 he is put to tlie wheel ? 
 
 Decidedly it is ; and he is also to certify whether the man is fit for labour or 
 not before he is put to the treadwheel. 
 
 2062. I presume that there are very few cases during your whole experience, 
 of a similiir nature to that which you have just stated ? 
 
 I mentioned that as a solitary instance that I have known of a man dying 
 suddenly at the wheel ; I cannot say that the wheel caused it. 
 
 2063. As a general rule, has not the surgeon the means of ascertaining with 
 complete precision whether a man is afflicted with disease of the heart 
 or not r 
 
 No doubt the surgeon has means of ascertaining it. I cannot say hat the 
 prisoner to whom I have referred had heart disease, but the fact is that tlie 
 man dropped down dead at the wheel. 
 
 2064. Was it proved at the time that he died of heart disease ? 
 No. 
 
 206.5. It might have been of apoplexy, might it not ? 
 It might have been from that or any other cause. 
 
 2066. Are you aware what the verdict of the coroner's jury was r 
 
 " Died by the visitation of God." It was fully investigated at the time. 
 
 2067. Do
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 193 
 
 2067. Do you further object to the use of the treadwheel, on the ground H. P. Vouhs, Esq. 
 that it is a deiiradinc:, and very often an unproductive einijlovnient for tlie — r- 
 men? » &' ^ I . 24th March 18G3. 
 
 I think, speaking generally of the crank or treadwheel, that it lowers and 
 degrades a man who is well dis|iosed, and tljougli you in;iy fail in improving 
 some men by employing them in industrial kiboui", still you sacrifice the well 
 disposed b}' putting them on the treadwheel. 
 
 2068. Lord Steward.] Is it not rather the crime than the punishment that 
 degi'ades : 
 
 Yes ; but I would hold out to the prisoner that, altliough he must be punished 
 for the crime, it is still open to him to raise himself, if he is determineti to do so. 
 
 2069. Chairman.'] Are the Committee to understand, that, in your opinion, 
 the use of the treadwhetl does convey a sense of degradation to the mind of 
 the prisoner? 
 
 I do not think it is so much the case with the treadwheel as with the crank 
 in the separate cells. 
 
 2070. Do you object to the use of the crank altogeti\er ? 
 To the general use of it, I do. 
 
 2071. Under what circumstances do you admit it within your catalogue of 
 advisable punishments ? 
 
 Supposing a man who is employed in industrial labour should neglect his 
 work or destroy the materials, or be guilty of any misconduct of that sort, I 
 would then make him feel that he has further lowered himself, and I would 
 order crank labour as a punishment for that misconduct. 
 
 2072. Therefore, the Comntiittee are to understand that you would employ 
 the crank and treadwheel, if at all, simply as a punishment for the offences 
 committed in prison ? 
 
 I think the treadwheel has its advantages in cases of men who are committed 
 for short periods, and who cannot well be employed in other labour ; for 
 instance, in an associated prison, where they have no ])Ower of separating the 
 prisoners, it is better to employ them on the wheel, than to employ them in 
 picking oakum in association. If they could make them pick oakum in separate 
 confinement, it would be different. 
 
 2073. What do you mean by a short sentence ? 
 Under one month. 
 
 2074. 'J'herefore, are the Committee to understand that you would employ the 
 treadwheel simply for prisoners sentenced under one month, and that you would 
 never employ the crank at all except as a punishment for prison offences ? 
 
 That is so. 
 
 2075. The Committee would wish to understand whether, the treadwheel 
 being, in your opiuion, a degrading punishment, it is desirable to inflict that 
 degradation upon a short sentence prisoner who may be supposed to be in prison 
 for a venial offence, in preference to a long sentence prisoner who is probably 
 ■committed for some great outrage ? 
 
 That is nut in any way my meaning. I have a strong objection to all short 
 sentences. I think that they do more harm than good. I think a prisoner is 
 degraded, and has the taint of the prison put upon him for an offence of a 
 very minor character, which would perhaps be better dealt with in some other 
 way ; but with regard to prisoners when they ai-e committed under a month, 
 I would recommend that they should be put to the treadwheel simply because 
 there is no other way of employing them. 
 
 2076. What is the shortest sentence that you would admit of, in your view ? 
 It is very ditiicult for me to lay down a rule as to that, but I think that 
 
 short sentences generally do more harm than good. 
 
 2077. Speaking generally, what is the shortest sentence which the Committee 
 are to understand you to allude to 'i 
 
 Under a couple of months you can gain no influence over a prisoner. I 
 
 think that the first object in sending a man to prison should be punishment, 
 
 (37. (i.) B B the
 
 194 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H. P. Vuules, Esq. the discipline ought to be severe, and a month is too short a sentence altogether. 
 
 If he is deserving of being sent to prison, I would give him severe punishment, 
 
 24th March 1863. ^^^^^ ^^ ^j^^ ^.^^^-^g j^j^^^g j would allow time for the prison authorities to gain an in- 
 
 ~ ' fluence over him. 
 
 2078. Do you believe that in two months it is possible to reform a man under 
 any system of prison discipline r 
 
 It would he taking upon myself too much to say that a man can be reformed 
 in two months, but what we hope to do in dealing with that class is, to prevent 
 the majority from coming under the arm of the lavv again, without supposing 
 that we can make them all good men. If we do this, we should do a great 
 deal. 
 
 207q. Do you believe that reformatory influences have any general effect 
 within the space of two months ? 
 
 I think they may go together ; if you give a man sharp discipline, and at the 
 same time obtain an influence over him, you may do good with a well disposed 
 man ; but there are some men who are trained to thieving from their infancy, 
 and it would be madness to say that two months or six months would be 
 sufficient to reform them ; you have quite to change their character, their 
 habits, and their nature altogether. 
 
 20S0. Lord Stexvard.'] You stated just now that you would deal with venial 
 offences in some other way ; could you give the Committee some notion of what 
 you meant by the expression " some other way " ? 
 
 We could perhaps meet it by fine, but that could not be done in all cases ; I 
 think for first cases a great deal of discretionary power might be left to the 
 magistrates to requiie a man to find security for good conduct. 
 
 2081. How would a labouring man do that; in what sum do you think that 
 he would be able to find security ? 
 
 If his conduct is so doubtful that he cannot find security, the magistrates 
 may then give him the longer period of two months. 
 
 2082. Are the Committee to understand tliat if he coidd not find security, 
 you would then sentence him to a longer term of imprisonment for a venial 
 
 offence ? 
 
 Not on that oround. I would say, " You have committed an offence which 
 renders you liable to imprisonment for such a period ; if your general conduct 
 is o-ood, and you can find approved securities that you will not commit such an 
 offence ao"ain, we will allow you to be at liberty, but if you cannot find such 
 security we must punish you for the offence, and give you two months." 
 
 2083. Lord WodfJimisc] How would you deal with the case of vagrants ; 
 would they be likely to be able to find securities ? 
 
 No • but I think that a wilful vagrant is a man that should be dealt with 
 more severely. 
 
 2084. Would you give a vagrant in all cases two months or more imprison- 
 ment ? 
 
 They are a very difficult class to deal with ; a vagrant is in training for a 
 thief; and if you can stop the man's career as a vagrant, you cut short a career 
 of crime. 
 
 20 8 r;. When you have committed a vagrant to prison for two months, how 
 would you employ him during that time? 
 
 Vagrants generally are sociable animals, and if you ke])t them in separate 
 confinement, picking oakum, you would be more likely to produce an effect than 
 if \()u employed them at the ti eadwhcel ; there is nothing they disUke so much 
 as being separated. 
 
 2086. C/i'iinvan.] Is it your opinion that vagrancy is increasing ? 
 
 I think the extension of the separate system alone has done nmch to cause 
 a decrease in vagranev. It nuiy liave increased slightly the last year or two, 
 but before that there was a very large decrease in the number of vagrants. 
 
 2087. Are you aware that in many gaols it is the systematic practice on the 
 part of vagrants to be committed during the winter months ? 
 
 ^ That
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 195 
 
 That was very much tlie practice formerly. In some gaols they had what H. P. Voules, Esq. 
 
 they called the Vagrant ^Yard, where there was a good fire, and the vagrants • 
 
 were all turned in together in a filthy state, without any supervision whatever. ''4t h March 186 3. 
 I am speaking of some 20 years ago. Vagrancy was largely on the increase 
 then; but now that they have been dealt with individually, it has done much to 
 decrease the number. 
 
 2088. You believe that the vagrant at present is deterred from coming into 
 prison by the separate cell, and by tlie accompaniments of that cell ? 
 
 I think he is more likely to be deterred by the separate system than by any 
 other. 
 
 2o8p. Do you believe that, practically, that has been the result ? 
 1 think it has. I tiiink the number of vagrants has decreased since the 
 extension of the separate system. 
 
 2090. Lord Wodehouse.] Would you abolish altogether the sentence of hard 
 labour. 
 
 No. 
 
 2091. How would A'ou propose to carry out sentences of hard labour ? 
 
 In separate cells hard labour consists of 10 hours' work during the 24 ; but 
 I would keep the power in reserve of resorting to the ti-eadwheel, or the crank, 
 in case a man misconducted himself. 
 
 2092. Are the Committee to understand you to say, that a prisoner would 
 be sentenced to hard labour, but would not be employed on hard labour if he 
 conducted himself well in the prison ? 
 
 I would not go to that extent, because I look upon oakum picking, for 
 instance, as hard labour, when it is done by task-work. I would recommend 
 that all the labour in the cell should be done by task-work, and it may thereby 
 become hard labour. 
 
 2093. Would you consider that what is generally known as industrial employ- 
 ment, or trade occupation, can be fairly called hard labour? 
 
 If it is done by task work, I think it may be so. 
 
 2094. So that you would retain the sentence of hard labour, and carry it out 
 by employing the prisoner in industrial labour ?. 
 
 Yes, by task-work, with the power of putting him to other hard labour, in 
 case he should abuse it. 
 
 2095. Do you think that that sort of labour would be more deterring than 
 labour at the crank or the wheel ? 
 
 A large number of persons are brought into prison, to speak generally, from 
 a distaste for labour, and you are not likely to remove that distaste by putting 
 them to grind at the crank ; you are much more likely to do good by hu- 
 manising them and making them feel that work is sometimes a boon and not 
 .always a task. 
 
 2096. When you speak of humanising prisoners, are you not rather thinking 
 of prisoners who are condemned to imprisonment for long periods, than pri- 
 soners condemned for periods such as are usual in a county prison ? 
 
 I am speaking of long-sentenced prisoners generally. 
 
 2097. But the inquiry in which the Committee are engaged relates to county 
 prisoners, and the sentences which they generally undergo are what we may 
 term short sentences ; can it be supposed that any system will work a reforma- 
 tion in the character of a prisoner in a period of three, four, or six months ? 
 
 Not in a man who has been regularly trained to crime. 
 
 2098. Or any other man ? 
 
 Yes, 1 think that many a man has committed one act which would send him 
 to prison for a period, and that the degradation and the punishment woidd be 
 sufficient to deter him in future. 
 
 2099. Would you confine your observations entirely to prisoners who have 
 committed one oti'ence only. 
 
 (37. G.) B B 2 I think
 
 196 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H. P. Foules, Esq. I think a prisoner who has been before committed should invariably be more 
 seriously dealt with. 1 would deal with him more severely, not only in the 
 24th Marcli 1863. sentence, but, if possible, in the discipline also. 
 
 2100. In what way would you deal with him more seriously; what more 
 serious punishment would you inflict ? 
 
 1 would grant certain privileges to a well-conducted man who comes to prison 
 for his first offence. 
 
 2101. What privileges would you give him? 
 
 1 believe the strongest appeal 30U can make to vagrants is through their 
 stomachs : but we are not permitted to alter tiie diet, or to give them any 
 advantage from their work ; with other classes, a man who comes in for the 
 first tin^e may have certain hours given him, say one in the evening, for 
 reading and instruction ; he should have more exercise m the airing yard, 
 and other minor privileges of that sort, which are appreciated by the pri- 
 soners. 
 
 2102. When you say that you would inflict a more serious punishment upon 
 a prisoner who had committed more than one offence, you do not mean that 
 you would inflict any more penal labour upon him, but merely that you would 
 give certain privileges to prisoners who are committed for the first time. 
 
 In the first instance, that should be considered in the sentence. This is 
 not so generally acted upon as it should he. Of course a sentence should be 
 more severe for the second offence. 
 
 2103. I understand you to say, that by a severer sentence you mean a longer 
 one, and that in the Ciise of a man who is sentenced for a second or any fol- 
 lowing offence, you would not subject him to any severer discipline in the pi-ison 
 than that of being emjjjoyed in industrial labour in a separate cell -* 
 
 Just so, by task work. 
 
 2104. Cliairvicni.] I presume from the answers that you have just given that 
 you would exclude such employments as stone-breaking from your category of 
 advisable employments ? 
 
 No ; on the contrary, I think stone-breaking in separate yards ])y task-work 
 is a very good employment, especially for short-sentenced prisoners. The 
 advantage of stone-breaking, provided that it is not in association, is that you 
 can task each man ; every employment in a prison should, if possible, be per- 
 formed by task- work. 
 
 2105. When a prisoner is sentenced for more than two months, you would 
 propose generally, as I understand, to employ him in an industrial occupation 
 of some sort ? 
 
 In the case of a person coming to prison for the first time, I would certainly 
 give him some industrial employment. 
 
 2106. Lord StctvariL] You have spoken of task work ; is it not very difficult 
 to determine what amount of labour of any particular description a ])risoner is 
 capable of performing '' 
 
 I tliink not. A governor who pays much attention to it can see whether a 
 man has any meelianieal turn or not. In the case of an agricultural labourer, 
 for instance, he would not think of i)utting him to the finer work ; he would 
 put him to prepare the coir or any coarse work, and would task him at that ; he 
 could not he put at once to the more advanced stages of mat-making, and 
 tailoring, and shoemaking. 
 
 2107. It was given in evidence the other day before the Committee, that in 
 the case of a man who had been condemned for some offence, his task-work 
 amounted to so much oakum jjicking per day, and that when his term was 
 expired, as a sort of bravado, on the last day he did three times the amount of 
 work, in order to show what he was capable of doing ; would that modif)' your 
 opinion with regard to task-work ? 
 
 That would be tlie fault of '.he officer who measured the task. Oakum varies 
 very much, according to the state of the rope, and whether the prisoner has any 
 means of warming it ; of course they can do it much quicker if they warm it ; 
 
 but
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCirLINR. 197 
 
 but I think that the governor and officers who understand it ought to be able //. p. Vouki Esq 
 to task the work so that tlie men should not be able to do much more than the 
 
 task. 24th March i86;j. 
 
 2108. Chairman.'] Are there any gaols within your district in which there is ' 
 neither the employment of the trtadwheel, nor of the crank, nor of stone- 
 breaking r 
 
 Yes, there are several gaols where they have no labour such as I understand 
 the noble Earl to call hard labour, that is to say the treadwheel, or the crank, 
 or stone breaking. 
 
 2109. In those gaols is the labour confined to industrial occupation of some 
 sort? 
 
 In many of them the prisoners are employed in labour which would come 
 under the head of hard labour, such as cutting wood to make up kindlers, and 
 things of that sort ; cutting up large logs of wood is very hard labour. 
 
 2! 10. Part of that industrial occupation consists, does it not, in shoemaking, 
 in tailoring, and in carpentering? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2111. And even in making paper bags ? 
 
 I know only one gaol in which they made paper bags. 
 
 2112. In what gaol is that r 
 That was at Ely. 
 
 2113. In 3'our opinion when a sentence of 18 months or two years' imprison- 
 ment is pronounced in court for a very grave offence, is the occupation of 
 making paper bags a practical carrying out of that sentence ? 
 
 I have never seen it carried to that extent ; I do not know any case in 
 which they have been employed continuously for any period in making paper 
 bags. 
 
 "to"- 
 
 2114. Are you aware whether in those gaols where the system is a mixed 
 one, the prisoners prefer industrial occupation to that which I have called liard 
 labour ? 
 
 I should say that a j^risoner would decidedly prefer industrial occupation to 
 hard labour. 
 
 2115. On what ground would he entertain that preference ? 
 
 I think it is natural that he should prefer some occupation in which he sees 
 a return for his labour, rather than that he should, as the prisoners commonly 
 express it, saw the wind ; I think the crank, for instance, serves to irritate a man 
 and create a bad spirit. 
 
 2116. Lord Steivard.'] Did not you say that their dishke was to confinement 
 alone, and that rather than continue in those industrial employments, they 
 asked to be put to hard labour, in a sort of association with their fellow-pri- 
 soneis ? 
 
 I was alluding in that case to men employed in picking oakum. 
 
 2117. Chairman^ Then is it the ease that the preference is simply for such 
 occupations as taihn-ing, carpentering, and others that have been mentioned, 
 and that where they are employed in picking oakum in a soUtary cell they 
 would prefer to be put upon the treadwheel ? 
 
 I have known instances of that. I cannot say that in all cases a prisoner 
 would prefer to work on the treadwheel to an industrial occupation in a 
 separate cell; but I have known instances in which they felt the separate 
 system so severely that they said they could not stand it. I have known the 
 same request to be made by men emj)loyed in some industrial occupation. 
 
 2118. Is not, in your opinion, the work at any industrial occupation, with 
 the exception of picking oakum, much lighter than the work at the treadwheel 
 or the crank ? 
 
 I do not think it is necessarily so ; I think if it is task work you may enforce 
 10 hours' work. The great evil is that the 10 hours' work which we are em- 
 powered to give is not always strictly enforced. 
 
 (37-6.) BB3 2119. Are
 
 198 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H. P. Voiiles, Es'-:. 2 ! 1 q. Are you aware of any one gaol in your district in which the full 
 
 " amount of 10 hours' labour at any occu[)atioii is enforced 
 
 24th March 1863. Yes, I have met with several instances. I would take Wakefield, for instance, 
 
 where the industrial labour is carried to too great an extent. It is more like a 
 
 large mnnufactory than a prison. 
 
 21 20. What is the amount of time that they woi-k there ? 
 
 The men work from six in the morning till eight at night, deducting two 
 hours for meals ; that is, one hour for dinner, half an hour for breakfast, and 
 half an hour for supper ; but those men are required to do a certain task, and 
 some of them work the greater part of their dinner hour in order to complete 
 that task. 
 
 2121. Earl of AIahn€sbury.~\ Are there any prisons where no labour is 
 exacted ? 
 
 At this moment I cannot mention any in my district, but in the county gaol 
 at Hereford, which was until lately in my district, some men were in separate 
 confinement, without any employment at all ; and I had an application from a 
 man that he might have some employment. If a man is sentenced to, and is 
 fit for hard labour, he is put upon the wheel, but the men who have been sen- 
 tenced to hard labour, and are physically unfit for the wheel, have no employ- 
 ment whatever. 
 
 2122. Are there any gaols in which there is no labour at all, either industrial 
 or vt^hat we call hard labour ? 
 
 No, I think not. 
 
 2123. In Hereford Gaol it was merely an absence of industrial labour that 
 you remarked ? 
 
 It was the absence of any employment for men who are not physically able 
 to jierform any hard labour. The complaint there was that men were put in 
 separate confinement without employment. 
 
 2) 24. Did you not state that there were instances there of men asking to be 
 put upon the wheel ? 
 
 No. An appHcation was made to me for some employment the last time I 
 visited it ; the man was not fit to be put upon the wheel. 
 
 21 2.-',. But there was no employment for him ? 
 
 Emplovment was provided for him after he made that request. 
 
 2i2ti. Lord Steward.'] In those gaols in which there are no instruments of 
 hard labour, and no means of enforcing hard labour, what steps are taken to 
 enforce the performance of a due amount of industrial employment in the 
 case of reluctant or disobedient prison-rs ? 
 
 Where rhe labour is not task work it must be left to the discretion of the 
 task- master, who reports to the Governor ; he investigates the charge of idleness, 
 and says whether the man has done a fiiir amount of work, if not he is punished. 
 
 2127. What punishments are inflicted in such a case ? 
 
 He is deprived of a portion of his meal, or, according to the magnitude of 
 the offence, he may be put in a solitary cell, or a dark cell for a certain time. 
 
 2128. Ill such cases is it sometimes necessary to have recourse to corporal 
 punishment ? 
 
 I have found that more often the case where crank labour is enforced, but 
 there are some eases where a man will not do his work in which it is necessary 
 to resoit to corporal punishment. 
 
 2129. You are of opinion, are you not, that corporal punishments cannot in 
 all cases be dispensed with ? 
 
 I should be very sorry to find that the power of ordering corporal punish- 
 ment was taken away from the magistrates. 
 
 2130. C/iairman.] Have you, in your experience, found that corporal punish- 
 ment is gen( rally effective. 
 
 If I may refer to it, I think what occurred in the House of Commons last 
 Session, had a very bad effect; the weight of the cat has been so hghtened a 
 prisoner does not care for it. I tliink, in the first instance, we should seek 
 
 to
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 199 
 
 to lead prisoners, but if they will not be led, they must be driven. If it was H. P. Voules, Ef,q. 
 necessary, 1 would at once I'esort to corporal punishment, and in such a case it " ~ 
 
 should be no child's play ; I would rather give six, or even two lashes, well ^'^*'^ ^"^ ' •^" 
 laid on, than two dozen imperfectly, as as it is done now. The prisoners laugh ~~~ 
 
 at it, not only those upon whom the punishment is inflicted, but the others. 
 In looking over the journal of a borough gaol which I visited, I found an entry 
 that an officer had been struck by a prisoner, and I asked this question, " I see 
 no entry of the punishment, either in the punishment-book or in the journal; 
 what was done in this case?" 'J he answer was, " 1 reported it to the magis- 
 trates." "Of course you did so, but what did the magistrates do ? " "The 
 mayor came down, and told the man that if he did it again he would punish 
 him." And then this explanation followed : they had called for a return in the 
 House of Commons, in which not only every punishment should be recorded, 
 hut the name of the magistrate ordering it, and that he had no idea of his 
 name going up to the House of Commons as having ordered the punish- 
 ment. 
 
 2131. Lord Wodehouse.] What alteration has there been made in the rules as 
 to punishment, and by whose orders ? 
 
 The other inspector and myself were directed to draw up some rules with 
 respect to corporal punishment. We did so, limiting the weight of the cat. and 
 the number of lashes to be inflicted ; those rules we sent up to the Home Office, 
 and were told that it was not necessary to enter so far into detail, but that they 
 should be embodied in the rules generally. 
 
 2132. Are those rules sanctioned by the Home Secretar}'. 
 Any alteration in the rules must be sanctioned by him. 
 
 2133. Are those rules to which you refer, with regard to the infliction of the 
 cat, sanctioned by the Home Secretary? 
 
 They were sent up to the Home Office by his directions. 
 
 2 1 34. Is it imperative upon all magistrates to observe them ? 
 Decidedly, 
 
 2135. What power has the Home Secretary to enforce them ? 
 
 He has power to alter the rules, but I am afraid, as I stated just now, lie has * 
 
 very little power to enforce them. 
 
 2 1 36. He has no more power with regard to those rules than with regard to 
 any other rules that he may make for a prison ? 
 
 No, he has not. 
 
 2137. Chairman.] Would you make a return of those rules to the Com- 
 mittee ? 
 
 I will do so. 
 
 2138. Lord IFodehouse.'] In fact, if I understand you rightly, this alteration 
 in the rules as to the infliction of corporal punishment was in consequence of 
 discussions which took place in Parliament, and not in consequence of any new 
 Act which was passed, except as relating to juvenile offenders .' 
 
 It was at the time of the alteration in the Act with regard to juvenile 
 oft'enders, but I cannot say whether it was in consequence of the discussion 
 that took place in the House of Commons. We sent up the amended rules, 
 and I suppose they would, in due course, be sent round to the prisons, but my 
 colleague and myself have received instructions to look at the rules of all the 
 prisons, and to amend them. I have looked through manv rules and made 
 memorandums upon them ; but when I found that this Committee of the House 
 of Lords were about to inquire into the matter, I thouglit it was far better to 
 leave them alone till the Report of the Committee should be made. 
 
 2139. Chairman.'] Have you ever seen one of those new cats to which you 
 have alluded? 
 
 I have not seen any light cat. I took some trouble to inform myself about 
 the cats used in difterent prisons, both as to the length of the lash and as to the 
 weight. 
 
 (37.6.) B B 4 2140. Can
 
 200 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H r Voider Esq -'40- Can you state any prisons in which the cat has been altered since this 
 
 ' ' Act was passed? 
 
 24th March-x863. ^ cannot. 
 
 2141. Lord Sfeward.l Could you easily ascertain whether there are any pri- 
 sons in which the cat has been altered ? 
 
 I could ascertain that and make a return of it. 
 
 2142. Chairman.] The Committee have had it in evidence from more than 
 one witness that the administration of one single whipping has been so effctive 
 as effectually to prevent the recurrence of a similar offence ; is that within your 
 experience also r 
 
 I cannot say that I know any case in which the whipping of one prisoner has 
 deterred others. 
 
 214:5. INly question was with regard to the individual himself; are you 
 aware of anv prisoner who has undergone corporal punishment who has offended 
 again in the same manner subseciuently r 
 
 There have been cases, I know, in which a man has been whipped more 
 than once for the same offence ; but that has been for neglecting to perform 
 his task at the crank. 
 
 2144. Is not that a very exceptional occurrence? 
 I tliink if a flogging is properly administered, a man will not render himself 
 
 liable to it a second time. 
 
 2145. Are you aware that of recent years the number of corporal punish- 
 ments inflicted in prisons for prison oti'ences has fallen off in a very large 
 proportion ? 
 
 Within the last two years more especially I think that has been the case. 
 
 2146. Can you inform the Committee of any causes which have led to that 
 diminution ? 
 
 I cannot, but there has been so much sympathy shown from without with 
 prisoners that it has done great harm ; that sympathy has been withdrawn 
 from them when it might be most useful ; that is to say, in providing them 
 with emi)loyment when they come out of prison ; but there has been a sort 
 of ultra philanthropy towards prisoners, which has made them feel that they 
 are the aggrieved party. 
 
 2147. Are vou aware whether the number of corporal punishments for prison 
 offences within vour district has fallen off in the same proportion as it has in 
 the south ? 
 
 I think there are very few corporal punishments in prisons, except where 
 they have the crank labour. 
 
 2148. Are you aware that a great reduction has taken place in your 
 
 district : 1 • 1 
 
 Certainly there has been a great reduction in the number of corporal punish- 
 ments. 
 
 2 1 49. Can you attribute that to any specific cause ? 
 There has been too much sympathy shown with prisoners, and the prisoners 
 
 have been treated too leniently in many cases. 
 
 21 -,o. Have vou ever felt it your duty to communicate on that point, either 
 with the governor, or with the visiting justices of any gaol r 
 
 Yes, 1 have seen offences which I considered to be lightlv dealt with, and 
 have recommended that, for a repetition of such conduct, tiie man should at 
 once be punished with corporal punishment. 
 
 2 1 -, 1 . Has your advice been acted upon ? 
 
 It has in some instances. I have never made a special report upon the sub- 
 ject, but have communicated with the visiting- justices. 
 
 21.t2. Duke of Marlborough.'] With reference to labour, do you deprecate 
 unproductive labour in gaols, as a general principle, as applied to hard labour ? 
 
 'i'he general use of the crank and treadwheel I do object to, the crank 
 more especially ; but I do not see the same objection to stone-breaking. 
 
 21.53. Supposing
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON' DISCIPLINE. 201 
 
 21,53. Supposing that the crank and the treadwheel arc used for unproduc- H. P. Voules, Esq. 
 
 tive labour, and are simply mechanical labour without au}- result, do you object 
 
 to that system from its being unproductive ? 24th March 1863. 
 
 I do ; I think it irritates the men, and creates a bad spirit. 
 
 2154. Do you think it increases the punishment of labour to a prisoner to 
 know that it is unproductive ? 
 
 No doubt it increases tlie punishment. 
 
 2155. Your feeling of objection, then, with regard to the treadwheel, or the 
 crank, would be less if it were used either to grind corn, or to pump water, or 
 anything of that sort ? 
 
 I think that it takes away very much from the irritation, when a man knows 
 that he is doing some good with his labour. 
 
 2156. You stated, did you not, that you did not think that short sentences 
 were of much avail in effecting any reformation upon a prisoner ; but do you 
 not think that short punishments may be deterrent ? 
 
 No ; I think that a man who is sent to prison for seven days, or 20 days, or a 
 month, becomes marked, and he is not in prison long enough to enable us to 
 exercise any influence for good over him. 
 
 21.57. Take the case of a man who has not been accustomed to vice or 
 crime, and who finds himself in prison for a month for an offence into which 
 he has been hurried, and finds the prison to be a very unpleasant thing, and 
 the discipline to be very severe, and that he is subjected to a great many 
 things which he did not expect before he entered prison ; do not you tliink that 
 the recollection of that month's confinement may have a deterring effect upon 
 that man in future ? 
 
 1 think that to a man of the character your Grace has described, a month's 
 imprisonment would do more harm than good. If that man escaped the taint 
 of a prison, and was bound over under certain securities, he would be more 
 likely to turn out well than if he had been subjected to the discipline of the 
 prison for a month ; it is too short a period in itself to have any deterring 
 effect upon him. 
 
 2158. When you speak of the taint of a prison, are the Committee to under- 
 stand you to mean an ideal taint, or an actual taint ? 
 
 No doubt the taint is in the crime itself ; but I am referring to the way in 
 which the class to which the prisoner belongs look upon him. They speak of 
 a man who has been in prison as a gaol bird- 
 
 2159. Supposing that the system of separation is properly carried out in 
 prison, so that a man does not get contaminated in prison, do you consider that 
 there is a prejudice in any way against a man who comes out of prison after a 
 month's confinement ? 
 
 I think there is a strong prejudice against him ; that is very much the case 
 in England. As I mentioned just now, there is a strong sympathy shown with 
 a prisoner so long as he is in gaol, but it ceases the moment he comes out ; 
 everybody turns his back upon him. 
 
 •2160. Is not that rather the case with those who have been habituated to 
 prison, and who have been in for long sentences ; because if a man is to receive 
 any taint in prison, that taint would be much more likely to fix upon him after 
 a long sentence than after a short one ? 
 
 Yes ; but a man who has committed a serious offence cannot go on un- 
 punished. You could not deal with him in any other way. You might leave 
 a discretionai-y power with the magistrates to deal with lighter cases. For in- 
 stance, when a man is committed for trial, he may be bailed out at the discretion 
 of the magistrates ; they might carry that system a little further, and bind a 
 man over to good conduct, as well as to appear to take his tiial. 
 
 2161. That would always resolve itself into a question of degree ; you w^^uld 
 admit that there were some offences for which a man must be imprisoned r 
 
 Doubtless. 
 
 2162. You stated, in answer to a previous question, did you not, that two 
 months would be the shortest sentence that you would inflict ? 
 
 I think that two months may be considered a short sentence. 
 
 (3/. 6.) C c 2163. Do
 
 202 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H.P. Vouks, Esq. 2163. Do you consider that two months would be a sufficient time during 
 
 which any reformatory effect could be produced upon a prisoner, as contra- 
 
 24th March 1863. distinguished from a deterrent effect ? 
 
 — I mention two months, simply because I was called upon to state a time ; 
 
 but it would be presumption for me to say in what time you can hope to deter 
 a man. For instance, in the case of a man who has been trained up to a life of 
 crime, you may imprison liim for two, four, six, or even twelve months, and 
 hardly hope to have any influence over him. 
 
 2164. Might not characters of that sort be found who would commit a crime 
 which could not in justice call for moi'c than tvvo months' imprisoinnent ? 
 
 When a man is brought up for a crime, his general character should be 
 taken into consideration in the sentence. I mean, for instance, if he had been 
 in gaol before, or if he is known to be an associate of thieves or bad characters. 
 Whereas, on the contrary, supposing a man to be well conducted generally, 
 and to have been brought into prison, it ma}^ be for a petty theft, under the 
 influence of some sudden temptation, you may hope that two months may have 
 some good effect upon him. 
 
 2165. There are some offences, are there not, for which the law does not 
 allow more than a certain duration of punishment ? 
 
 I am aware of that, but it is a great evil that we do pass short sentences, 
 which, in my opinion, do more harm than good. 
 
 2166. Taking the fact as it is, do you consider that when a sentence of two 
 months' imprisonment is passed, it would be possible to reform a prisoner of 
 the character which you have just described as having been an associate of 
 thieves ; could you have any reasonable hope of reforming him by any prison 
 system of two months ? 
 
 No, I do not think we could. 
 
 2167. In that case would you not lose the effect of punishment altogether, 
 if that punishment, failing to be reformatory, were not sufficiently deterrent in 
 its character ? 
 
 I til ink the most deterrent discipline you can inflict, especially for short 
 sentences, is very close confinement in a separate cell. 
 
 2168. Do you think that that is deterrent in itself without hard labour? 
 Yes, if by hard labour is meant the treadwheel or the ciank. I think 
 
 picking oakum is somewhat different ; you must give the man some employ- 
 ment in a separate cell ; in fact, nothing could be more severe to him than 
 to shut him up in a separate cell without employment. 
 
 2'. 69. It has been stated to the Committee in evidence, that some prisoners, 
 from previous idleness of disposition, are not at all averse to being shut up in 
 a cell without employment ; your opinion would not coincide with that r 
 
 I think not; I have seen some Irish vagrants who would perhaps answer that 
 character. If you would let them sleep, they would sleep day and night. 
 
 2170. Take the case of those Irish vagrants that you have just described ; 
 what mode of punishment do you consider to be the best to be applied to them 
 in order to keep them out of prison r 
 
 J think separate confinement with task work would be the best punishment, 
 or for such a man as I have just now mentioned, 1 would apply the treadwheel 
 for short sentences. I mentioned just now that it was desirable to keep the 
 treadwheel in reserve for such extreme cases as that of a man you could not 
 employ in any other way. 
 
 2171. In any sentences which are usually carrried out in county gaols, the 
 duration of which is not so great as in the case of those sentences which are 
 carried out in convict prisons, do you think that the time of imprisonment is 
 sufficiently long to have any reformatory effect upon a prisoner? 
 
 We have sentences of two years, and I think that tliat is ample time. If a 
 man is placed under the separate system of discipline, and there is anything 
 good in his character, it gives time for reformation. 
 
 2172. Do }ou think that the system of county gaols is such, admitting, as 
 those gaols do, both of loni,^ and short sentence;-, as to enable that reformatory 
 system to be carried out in them in the manner which you have described? 
 
 In many well conducted county prisons I think it is so. 
 
 2173. Lord
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 203 
 
 •21 73. Lord Ste^vardJ] Have you known of any case in which a man coming H. P- Voukt, Esq. 
 into a county prison with a bad character has been dischare-ed from it thorousrhlv „ — ~ 
 
 reformed? b t, y ,4th March 186 3. 
 
 Yes ; I frequently have names and particulars given to me. 
 
 2 1 74. And have you been able to trace out a man afterwards, and ascertain 
 that he had been so reformed ? 
 
 In some cases I have inquired, and found years afterwards that they have 
 been so. I have been addressed myself by a discharged prisoner in the street 
 in Hull, who is getting on very well there. 
 
 21 75. Had he been confined in a prison where there was no hard labour, and 
 where industrial employment was the only means of reformation enforced r 
 Both systems were carried on, I think, with the prisoner 1 have alluded to. 
 
 •2176. Is the case that you speak of rather an exceptional one, or have you 
 known many others ? 
 
 I am not in the way of meeting with many such cases, but I frequently have 
 returns sent me by a chaplain or by a governor of cases of men who have been 
 in gaol, and are now earning an honest livelihood, and doing well. 
 
 2177. What are the grounds on which you say that the performance of un- 
 productive labour produces a feeling of irritation in the minds of the men who 
 perform it ? 
 
 I infer that from tlie general tone of the prisoners on visiting them, and from 
 what I have heard from the prisoners themselves. 
 
 2178. Then you would be surprised, would you not, to hear that it has been 
 given in evidence by the governor of a prison, that he has never remarked any 
 such feeling of irritation in the minds of any prisoners vmder his control ? 
 
 I should not be surprised to hear it, because I know one or two governors 
 who are strong advocates of crank labour, and I know other governors who are 
 equally strong advocates of industrial employment. J could mention goyernors 
 who could each give good arguments in favour of their own view. 
 
 2179. Duke of Marlborough.'] Is not the whole system of imprisonment, and 
 the very fact of his being depi-ived of his liberty and subjected to rules, and 
 discipline, and hard fare, of a character to irritate the mind of a prisoner ? 
 
 I think not. In the case of prisoners who have been in a gaol where they 
 have been associated, and afterwards were in a prison upon the separate 
 system, they have told me they felt most thankful for the separation, and the 
 opportunities for improvement offered them ; some of those men turned out 
 well when they came out of prison. 
 
 2 1 80. The crank work labour,or even the treadwheel labour, need not neces- 
 sarily interfere with separation ; both those systems can be carried on, can 
 they not, keeping separation still in use r 
 
 Yes, especially in the case of the crank, which may be carried on in a 
 separate cell. 
 
 2181. Are you aware whether a convict feels in his mind, that there is a 
 degree of injustice to him, in subjecting him to an employment which he knows 
 to be unproductive ? 
 
 I find, from my experience, that with some prisoners there is no punishment 
 beyond the crank ; that is the reason they are so frequently obliged to resort to 
 corporal punishment for the non-performance of a man's task at crank labour. 
 Many a man would sooner take a flogging than perform the crank labour. 
 
 2182. C/iairman.'] You mentioned just now, that you attributed a good 
 many of the evils under the existing system to the spirit of what you termed 
 ultra philanthropy : will you state to the Committee some of those evils which 
 have proceeded from that cause r 
 
 It is difficult to state directly any evils ; but I think the general tone pro- " 
 
 duced by it is, that prisoners feel themselves to be the aggrieved parties. 
 They have, more or less, a craving for notoriety, and the sympathy which has 
 of late been shown towards great criminals has encouraged this feeling with all 
 classes of prisoners. Even the inquiry into the abuses in the hulks in 1847, 
 
 (37. 6.) c c 2 and
 
 204 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H F. Vouiei, Esq and more recently at Birmingham, had a bad effect. Prisoners became more 
 7 — T gg insolent and defiant, not only to their officers, but in some cases to the visiting 
 
 '^ J ■ justices. In Ireland the sympathy Avith prisoners follows them after their 
 
 liberation, and they can always get employment. It is not so in this country ; 
 I have had frequent complaints from prisoners that the police and others 
 interfere with them the moment they come out of prison, and they have no 
 chance of getting employment. 
 
 2183. However, does not that state of feeling to which you have alluded 
 re-act in a prejudicial manner also upon the authorities who are charged with 
 the carrying out of Prison Discipline ; and does it not induce them, as far as 
 they can, to make their system conciliatory and palatable to the prisoners f 
 
 I have no doubt that it has had that effect upon some ; I can call to my mind 
 one case in which a surgeon complained of the labour being too hard in the 
 prison. I met him on my way 10 the gaol, and he called my attention to it. 
 When I came to inquire into it, I found that there was nothing in his statement ; 
 he then said, "Yes; but we shall have another Birmingham Inquiry here," 
 showing that he was influenced by the fear of what had occurred at Bir- 
 mingham. 
 
 2184. Do you believe that the prisoners within any gaol are aware of such 
 communication being made by the surgeon, or by any otiier officer who may 
 take a view adverse to that of the governor in desiring to relax the discipline of 
 the prison ? 
 
 1 do not know any case that I can call to mind just now in which a surgeon, 
 or a chaplain, or any other officer, has improperly interfered with the dis- 
 cipline. 
 
 2185. What I mean is this : would any communication of the nature which 
 you have just dcpcribed to the Committee, made either by a chaplain, or by a 
 surgeon, reach in due course of time the ears of tiju prisoners themselves. 
 
 In the case I have mentioned, certainly it would not ; for the communication 
 was made to me, and of course ( did not repeat it. But the same surgeon may 
 have shown sympathy with the prisoners witliout my knowledge, and he ma}' 
 have spoken to them words to the same effect as he spoke to me. 
 
 2186. Are the prisoners perfectly well acquainted with any suggestions which 
 are made for the relaxation of discipline ? 
 
 Prisoners have extraordinary means of knowing what is going on. but I 
 cannot say that they are aware of the suggestions made to the authorities with 
 regard to the discipline. 
 
 2187. In alluding to any relaxations wnich have been effected, are you of 
 opinion that the stringency of the diet has been unduly relaxed r 
 
 No ; I think it is very necessary that the prisoners should have wliat is 
 generally looked upon as a liberal diet ; that is to say, according to our present 
 rates of diet, a^ compared with workhouse diets. I have found in many cases, 
 in comparing them, that the workhouse diets are as good, or sometimes 
 better, than the prison diets ; but I do not think the cases will bear com- 
 parison, the one man is under the depressing influence of imprisonment, and 
 the other is not. The criminal has been in the habit of taking a certain quantity 
 of animal food, and if you suddenly cut him off from animal food his health will 
 be seriously injured. The exj)erimcnt was tried some time ago of putting 
 prisoners uj)on a low diet at Millbank, and the men got hnv fever. At the 
 hulks, also, they tried the experiment of putting them on a lower diet, and it 
 was stated to me at the time (it was before 1 inspected the hulks) by the medical 
 man 1 hilt their bones were "rotted" from the low diet. Those men had been 
 accustomed to a generous diet, and upon their imprisonment they were cut off 
 from all stimulants in the way of beer, or spirituous liquors ; it was therefore 
 necessary, if you put them to hard labour, that they sliould have a certain 
 amount of animal food ; this was looked upon with great jealousy ; people said 
 that they were too well fed. 
 
 2188. Are you aware that about 50 per cent, of the persons who are com- 
 mitted to prison are taken from the class either of labourers, or of very small 
 tradesmen indeed ? 
 
 I am
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON niSCIPLINE. 205 
 
 I am aware that a veiy large proportion of committals are from that class ; I h.p. VovIet,Esq. 
 do not know the exact number. 
 
 2 1 89. Are you aware that among the labouring class, at all events in a 
 certain part of England, meat is hardly tasted once in the course of the week ?. 
 
 I think that the diet should be regulated in some measure according to the 
 ordinary food of the same class of persons from which the prisoners are taken. 
 For instance, in the manufacturing districts, you find that men gee animal food 
 every day ; whereas if you go down to Dorsetshire, and some agricultural dis- 
 tricts, they rarely taste it ; perhaps once a week at the utmost. 
 
 2 1 90. Would you be prepared to advocate a variable scale of diet, according 
 to the different districts r 
 
 I think it should be so. 
 
 2191. Would not that involve a multiplicity of classes, and divisions of diet, 
 that would be perfectly unmanageable ? 
 
 The diet of each prison is recommended by the local magistrates, and sent 
 for approval to the Secretary of State. 
 
 2192. Are )'ou, therefore, of opinion, that uniformity in the scale of diet 
 throughout the prisons in England and Wales, would be undesirable ) 
 
 I think that it would be undesirable ; for instance, an attempt was made 
 formerly to introduce the English diet into Scotland ; the consequence was, 
 that thu Scotch prisoners, who had been accustomed to a greater bulk of food, 
 and not to animal food, could not be satisfied with the small bulk in animal 
 food which they got in the English diet. The introduction of the Scotch diet 
 into England was afterwards tried, and there the -very reverse took place ; they 
 had been accustomed to a smaller bulk, aod more nourishing food, and they 
 became very ill. Soine of them, I remember, were attacked writh erysipelas and 
 low lever, from the low diet that they had been put upon in prison. 
 
 2193. Earl of Maimeshury.'] Had they been put upon oatmeal ? 
 Yes, upon oatmeal, principally. 
 
 2194. Chairnuiti.] Therefore, you would prefer the extreme discrepancies 
 which exist at present in the different prisons in England, to any uniformity 
 in diet ? 
 
 Yes. I think that it would be wrong to give the same diet to prisoners in 
 an agricultural district, where they rarely have meat, as you would give to 
 prisoners in a manufacturing district, where they have meat every day. 
 
 2195. But do not very often men from the manufacturing districts find their 
 way into prisons in the rural districts ? 
 
 Yes, of course, it would be impossible to meet that ; I mean that the diet of 
 each prison should be framed somewhat in accordance with the ordinary food 
 of the town or county in which the prison is situated. 
 
 2 1 p6. Does not a very considerable proportion of the inmates of every gaol 
 include men who came from different parts of the country ? 
 
 Yes, but these are generally vagrants and tramps, who are on the lowest scale 
 of diet. In some of those gaols under three months they get no solid animal 
 food at all ; they get soup, but no solid animal food. 
 
 2197. Do you believe, therefore, that it would be impossible to construct a 
 dietary such as would suit the average of men ? 
 
 The danger would be that it would be both too much and too little, it would 
 be too much for one class, and too little for another. As I stated before, a 
 man who has not been accustomed to meat would find the diet very tempting 
 and very good, whereas a man from the manufacturing districts, who had been 
 always accustomed to meat every day, would suffer if it were suddenly stopped, 
 as he gets no stimulants. 
 
 2198. Are there any gaols within your district where beer is allowed r 
 Not any. 
 
 2199. Earl Cat/icart.] In your report for the year 1862, you state, do you 
 not, that beer is allowed in the Birmingham Gaol ? 
 
 (37.6.) CC3 Yes; 
 
 24th March i86j.
 
 24th March 1863. 
 
 206 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 M. P. Foules, Es(j. Yes ; but in the cases alluded to ale was ordered by the surgeons on medical 
 grounds, and we have no control over that. 
 
 2200. But is it not rather remarkable that there should be 59 prisoners 
 jn one gaol at one time receiving allowances of ale, as you state in your 
 report ? 
 
 I took that from the return of the surgeon. I do not know the individual 
 circumstances, but it was given to prisoners under medical treatment, and we 
 have no control over that. 
 
 2201. Are you aware of the same circumstance ever having occurred in any 
 other prison, that it was necessarv to give a quantity of ale to a number of 
 prisoners ? 
 
 Men under medical treatment constantly have wine and brandy given them, 
 but it is only when they are under medical treatment. I was speaking just now 
 of the ordinary diet. 
 
 2202. Does not 39 appear to you to be a remarkable proportion as re- 
 ceiving ale r 
 
 No ; 59 is not a very large number, 1 think, of the total number of conunit- 
 ments, which is 1,951. 
 
 2203. Lord Sletvard.'] Does it appear that those 59 were receiving this 
 allowance all at one time throughout the year ? 
 
 During the year ale was issued to 59 prisoners while they were under treat- 
 ment by the surgeon. 
 
 2204. ^iwloi Malmeshury.'] Do you find that when prisoners first come to 
 prison, who have been in the habit of drinking stimulants, that they miss tlu-m 
 very much, and become very much depressed in consequence ? 
 
 That varies very much in the different districts ; and as my visits are only 
 occasional, I cannot know how many days each man has been in prison. 
 
 2.205. But you stated, did you not, as a reason for giving them the quantity 
 of meat and food that is allowed, that they had been accustomed to stimulants 
 before they were put in prison, and that those stimulants were stopped when 
 they entered it. 
 
 I did so, but my meaning was this, that prisoners, generally speaking, of that 
 class in the manufacturing districts, get daily a certain amount of beer or other 
 stimulant before they come to gaol ; they receive no support of that sort when 
 they are in gaol, and therefore, if we were to cut oflF the animal food as well as 
 the stimulant, we should find them generally fail in health ; that is what I in- 
 tended to convey. 
 
 2206. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Are you aware of the diet in the military 
 prisons ? 
 
 Yes, I have seen something of it. 
 
 2207. Are you aware that the diet in the military prisons is very considerably 
 lower than the diet in most of the c\\\\ prisons ? 
 
 Generally the periods for which they are sentenced are so much lower. 
 
 2208. The diet is given at the 56th page of Sir Joshua Jebb's report ou 
 military prisons, in which meat is entirely excluded ; are you aware that, with 
 the exception of the prisoners at Aldershot and Devonport, the scale of diet in 
 those ])risons is much lower than in any other gaol in the kingdom ? 
 
 I do not know the present scale of diet in the military prisons, but my im- 
 pression is that it is not lower than the prisoners receive who are sentenced 
 for the same periods in our criminal prisons. 
 
 2209. Are you aware that meat does not form a part of it at all? 
 I was not aware that it did not form a part of the diet for long sentences. 
 
 2210. Are you aware that it does not form a part of the diet for sentences 
 after 56 days : 
 
 The sentence S'ldom exceeds three months, I believe in military prisons, but 
 I was not aware of the fact. 
 
 221 1. Are
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 207 
 
 2211. Are )ou aware that there is a return also given in this report upon JS. P.Vou!es,Esq. 
 military prisons of the health of the prisoners ? . .. ~ .„ 
 
 TUi. *U4.* 34th March 1863. 
 
 I have not seen that return. 
 
 2212. You stated just now that meat was necessary in some parts of the 
 country and not in others, according to the usual diet of the locality ; are you 
 not aware that in the army, persons are drawn together from all |)arts of the 
 country. 
 
 Yes ; hut the sentences of prisoners in a military prison very seldom exceed 
 three- months. 
 
 2213. Did 1 wrongly understand you to state that your former answer re- 
 ferred only to longer sentences than three months? 
 
 To prisoners under three months ; they have soup three times a vreek, but I 
 think they have very little, and in some prisons no solid animal food under 
 three months. 
 
 2.214. Are 3'ou aware that in Class 3 of the Government Dietary, convicted 
 prisoners employed at hard labour for terms exceeding 21 days, but not more 
 than six weeks, and convicted prisoners not employed at hard labour for terms 
 exceeding 21 days, but not more than four months, are entitled on Sunday and 
 Thursday to a pint of soup, and on Tuesday and Saturday to three ounces of 
 cooked meat without bone ? 
 
 That is altered in some gaols. I think it will be found that prisoners under 
 three months get very little or no solid animal food. 
 
 2215. In your opinion, is the dietary laid down b)^ the Secretary of State 
 more than sufficient for the support of prisoners at hard labour ? 
 
 That depends upon the locahty. 
 
 221 6. Lord Wodehouse.] Are you speaking now of the diet approved by the 
 Secretary of State, or are you speaking of the diet which has not been approved 
 by the ISecretary of State ? 
 
 The dietaries of prisons are all sent up from the different prisons ; they 
 vary very much ; in one county they may have more animal food than in 
 another ; but I think you will find that they receive very little and in some 
 prisons no animal food until they have been three months in gaol. 
 
 2217. Is there not a scale which is generally recommended by the Govern- 
 ment, though it may not be universally adopted r 
 
 Yes, and I have always recommended a graduated scale ; but it must be 
 regulated in a great measure by the habits of the people in the neighbour- 
 hood. I recommend to the visiting justices that they should draw up a diet 
 table ujjon this system, that is in proportion to the period for which the pri- 
 soners are sentenced. 
 
 2218. Marquess of <Sfl//s6?/;7/.] Then you do not think it desirable that the 
 rate of diet prescribed by the Home Office should be followed ? 
 
 Not in all cases. I think it is more the jjrinciple upon which this diet is 
 framed that is recommended, than the absolute diet ; and I look upon it as 
 a maximum diet. 
 
 22 1 g. With regard to this diet which you say is the maximum of the class, 
 are you aware that Class 2 has been called by a witness, who has given evidence 
 before the Committee, starvation ? 
 
 No ; but class 2 is intended to deal with vagrants ; those classes were framed 
 with that object. 
 
 2220. You cannot limit it to vagrants, because a man may be convicted for 
 any offence, and the justices may send him for 14 or 21 days; practically he is 
 not in imprisonment for 14 or 21 days, with the diet of that class, a much more 
 severe punishment than a longer term with a higher diet ? 
 
 I am aware that the magistrates frequently commit persons for the shorter 
 periods in order to give them the lowest class of diet, but that is done generally 
 in the case of vagrants. 
 
 2221. That may be for any offence against the person, or against property, or 
 
 any other summary conviction, may it not? 
 
 Precisely. . , 
 
 (37. 6.) c c 4 2222. Chairman J
 
 208 .MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J{. P.Voiiies,Esq. 2222. Chairman.'] Are you of opinion that in dismissing a prisoner from his 
 
 confinement, you are bound to send him out in the best possible physical con- 
 
 24di March 1863. ^l[^[^^^ of health, or in that state of health in which he entered the prison r 
 
 ' I think that it is our interest, as well as our duty, to send a man out 
 
 physically able if he is so disposed to earn an honest livelihood. 
 
 2223. Therefore you would endeavour by means of diet to improve his con- 
 stitution and his physical powers to the utmost r 
 
 I would not leave it to the prisoner to say, " I was so reduced when I came 
 out of prison that I was physically incapable of earning an honest livelihood." 
 
 2224. Would it be the duty of the governor and the surgeon, in your 
 opinion, to improve that man's physical energies and powers to the^ highest 
 point ? 
 
 1 would not say to the highest point ; I think that no indulgence should be 
 allowed but simply what is necessary to maintain a man in health so that he can 
 earn his livelihood when he goes out. I would forbid any indulgence ; and 
 would make the diet as simple as possible, giving the required nourishment. 
 
 2225. Are you of opinion that, in your district, there are any indulgences in 
 the matter of diet ? 
 
 No, I do not think there are. 
 
 2226. You do not believe that the dietary in any prison under your in- 
 spection contains what may be termed indulgencies ? 
 
 So far as I can speak from my knowledge at present, if I had observed any- 
 thing of that sort in my inspection, 1 should certainly have called attention 
 to it. 
 
 2227. Do you carry in vour mind the dietary of Wakefield, for instance? 
 Yes, I do. 
 
 2228. Are you aware that there is a very great variety in that dietary ? 
 They are trying a new system there which has been adopted for six months, 
 
 as an experiment. 
 
 2229. Since when have they tried it ? 
 
 I think that the six months for which it was adopted must be very nearly 
 run out now. 
 
 2230. Does the variation of the food which is comprised in that dietary 
 represent the experiments which are now being made ? 
 
 The experiments are not confined to the diet. There are certain privileges 
 attached to good conduct. It was, I believe, in consequence of the report of 
 four of the visiting justices who went to Ireland ; they wished to embody in their 
 disciphne some points of the system that they had observed there, and to grant 
 to the prisoners certain privileges which they might attain to by good conduct. 
 An improved diet is among those privileges. 
 
 2231. Could you put in as a return to the Committee the dietary as it w'as 
 previous to those experiments, and the revised dietary with the expei'imental 
 changes ? 
 
 Yes ; I will get the return made out, and furnish it to the Committee. 
 
 2232. Can you state to the Committee the instructions that you received 
 from the Secretary of State with regard to your duties as inspector r 
 
 I will put in a copy of them. 
 
 2233. Have those instructions been varied at any time ? 
 Not since I have been an inspector. 
 
 2234. Are the instructions which you received in 1851 the same as those 
 under which yon act now ? 
 
 "i'es ; 1 received a printed copy of the instructions which had been issued to 
 other inspectors. 
 
 2235. Duke oi Marlborough.] Do you find that your district is well within 
 the compass of your inspection ? 
 
 I have undertaken the district ; and as I mentioned before in the year that has 
 now passed, I have inspected every gaol, with the exception of five ; my 
 
 omitting
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 209 
 
 omitting to inspect these was partly occasioned b\- illness which called me home ^^- P- Voules, Esq. 
 
 more suddenly than I anticipated. I was going ou to the Isle of Skj^e when 
 
 that occurred. 24th March 1863. 
 
 2236. You consider, do you not, that in order to ensure an efficient inspec- 
 tion each gaol should be inspected annually ? 
 
 I certainly would not omit the insj)t'etion of a gaol at least once in each year 
 if I had any fear as to how the discipline was going on. 
 
 2237. Do you find that you are able to go all over your present district 
 with ease and efficiency ? 
 
 Yes ; I can visit all parts of my district without difficulty. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, 
 
 One o'clock. 
 
 (37. 6.) D D
 
 [ 211 
 
 Die Jov'is, ^& Martii 1 863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT 
 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 LoKD Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 Earl of RoMNEY. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Lord WoDEHousE. 
 JjOid Ltveden. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON in the Chair. 
 
 Evidence on 
 Prison Discipline. 
 
 GEORGE EVEREST, Esq., is called in, and examined as follows : G. Everest, Esq. 
 
 2238. Chairman.'] WILL you be good enough to state to the Committee 
 •what office you hold at the Home Office ? 
 
 I am principal clerk for criminal business. 
 
 2239. How long is it since you were appointed to that office ? 
 I was appointed in 1847- 
 
 2240. Since that time you have given consideration, 1 presume, to all those 
 matters which would be included under the criminal business of the office ? 
 
 I have. 
 
 2241. You are probably aware of the changes which have taken place of 
 recent years in the system of inspection with regard to county and borough 
 prisons ? 
 
 I am. 
 
 2242. Will you state to the Committee briefly what those changes have been, 
 so far as they have fallen under your cognizance in the Home Office ? 
 
 The first change was that of the appointment of inspectors of prisons under 
 the Act of the 5th and 6th WilUam the Fourth, chapter 38. Five gentlemen 
 were originally appointed to those offices, but tliey have by degrees been re- 
 duced to the present number, two. The Act under which they were appointed 
 was amended by another Act, the 2nd and 3rd of Victoria, chapter 42, but 
 that Act did not in any way interfere with their functions. 
 
 2243. Are those the two principal Acts? 
 
 Yes, those are the principal Acts, except the original gaol Act of the 4th 
 of George the Fourth, chapter 64. 
 
 2244. Is the appointment of the inspectors revokable at the pleasure of the 
 Secretary of State r 
 
 The appointment is revokable. 
 
 2245. What is the salary which the inspectors receive? 
 The salary was originally 70O/. a year, but it is now 800/. 
 
 2246. Not including- travelling expenses ? 
 No, they are extra altogether. 
 
 '■■ (37- 7.) D D 2 2247. Are 
 
 afith March 1863.
 
 212 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 G. Everest, Esq. 2247. Are there any qualifications for the office ? 
 
 ^, ,, — 7 n^ No special qualitications that I am aware of. There has always been one 
 
 ^Gth March 18 63. medical inspector. 
 
 224S. Lord Steward.] At present the country is divided into two districts, 
 one of which is visited iDy one, and tiie other by the other inspector ? 
 Yes. 
 
 2249. And the one which is not visited by the medical inspector derives no 
 benefit whatever from his medical knowledge and expirience ? 
 
 None, but the medical inspector is referred to by the Secretary of State on all 
 questions upon which any medical point arises. 
 
 2250. Would not that rather lead to the inference that it would be better if 
 each district were visited alternately by the two inspectors, if it is thought 
 desirable to have medical inspection ' 
 
 I can hardly give an opinion upon that point. The medical inspector, no 
 doubt, is very useful in all ca<es where any medical point arises, but that is not 
 very often the case. The question of diet, for instance, is one more particularly 
 for the medical inspector. 
 
 2251. C/iainna?!.'] Whenever any medical question has arisen, in what way 
 has the Secretary of State dealt with it, and to whom has he referred it ? 
 
 Usually to the medical inspector. 
 
 22.52. Therefore, if a question arose at this moment in the northern district, 
 with regard either to diet or to any matter of a medical nature, that question 
 would be referred to Mr. Perry's consideration r 
 
 Yes, it would, if of a purely medical character. 
 
 2253. And tiie Secretary of State would be guided exclusively by Mr. Perry? 
 Mainly ; I can scarcely go the length of saying exclusively, but to a great 
 
 extent it would be so. 
 
 2254. Will you be good enough to put in the instructions which the Secretary 
 of State gives to the inspectors r 
 
 I understand that instructions to the inspectors were prepared in the Secre- 
 tary of State's office many years ago, but I was not cognizant of them, and 
 never saw them. 
 
 2255. You are not aware whether any have been issued ? 
 
 I have no personal knowledge of ihe fact. I have been told that instructions 
 were prepared in 1H49, but I very much doubt whether they were issued. 
 
 22.56. Can you put in a copy of those which were prepared ? 
 
 I have not a copy with me ; 1 believe there is a proof copy in the office, and 
 that is the only copy that I am aware of. 
 
 22.57. Will j^ou be good enough to put it in as a return and forward it to the 
 Committee ? 
 
 Yes, if I can procure it. 
 
 225 S. Is there any rule laid down by the Secretary of State as to the number 
 of visits which are to be paid by the inspectors to the several prisons during the 
 course of the 12 months ? 
 
 Noni' ; that is left entirely to their discretion. 
 
 2251). According to the general i)ractice of the office, has it been cu-toraary 
 to expect that those prisons should be visited at least once in every year ? 
 Certaiidy, it is understood that that is the practice. 
 
 2260. Taking into consideration the terms of the A(!t of Parliament under 
 which the inspectors exercise their powers, is it the inference, in the Ofjinion of 
 the office, that that visit ought to be paid once a year '? 
 
 Certainly, at least once a year. 
 
 2261. Would you feel it your duty, in the event of a visit being delayed for 
 more than 12 months, to call the inspector's attention to it, and require some 
 explanation ? 
 
 That would he a (juestion for the consideration of the Secretary of State ; 
 
 it has never been done. 
 
 2262. Is
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 213 
 
 22f)-2. Is any return made of the number of visits and the time at which they G. Everest, Esq. 
 
 are paid? . , • ^ , .i • • -.i • 26ih March 1863. 
 
 None whatever ; the reports 01 the inspectors show the prisons visited in _____^ 
 
 the course of the 1 2 months. 
 
 22(13. Are the printed reports which are laid every year before Parliament 
 the whole of the information which the Secretary of State derives from the 
 inspectors r 
 
 'llu' whole, except any special case occurs requiring immediate attention, 
 and then a special report is made to the Secretary of State. 
 
 22(^4. Do those special reports ever appear in the Annual Report? 
 
 No, they do not ; they are directed entirely and exclusively to the Secretary of 
 State. 
 
 2 2()-). Where those special repoits refer to some cause of complaint, or some 
 abuse which exists in any prison, has it ever been the practice to lay them 
 before Parliament, together with the annual report ? 
 
 No, that has never been done. 
 
 22()(>. Can you state generally vvhnt are the causes of any extraordinary visit 
 which an inspector may be called upon to make ? 
 
 Th<' occurrence of any unusual event, such as insubordination, the outbreak 
 of disease, the complaint of a prisoner of ill treatment, or tlie contravention of 
 some one of the prison statutes, would lead to an extraordinary visit from the 
 inspector. In such cases he makes a special report to the Secretary of State, 
 who usually calls upon the visiting justices for explanation. 
 
 2.07. Has the inspector the right of himself, ex pruprio motu, to pay an ex- 
 traordinary visit to any [irison, or is it necessary for him to obtain the sanction 
 of the Secretary of State ? 
 
 He can visit a prison at all times, whenever he thinks fit to do so. 
 
 2268. Can you state the principle upon which the reports of the inspectors 
 are compiled? 
 
 No, 1 cannot. I presume that they make memoranda at the period of tbeir 
 visits, from which they subsequently compile their reports. 
 
 2261). Is there any rule laid down by the Home Office with regard to the 
 practice which ought to exist upon that point ? 
 None at all. 
 
 2270. Wlien those reports come before the Home Office, what is the course 
 which is adopted there .' 
 
 They are laid before the Secretary of State, and he gives directions for their 
 presentation to Parliament. 
 
 2271. Is it the duty of any particular department of the Home Office to con- 
 sider the report? 
 
 No, no duty of that kind has ever been laid down or defined in any way. 
 
 2272. Then, as a matter of fact, the report reaches the office, and passes 
 throu,:;ii the office of the Secretary of State as a mere matter of form ? 
 
 Quite so. 
 
 2273. As a general rule, no comment is made upon the report either by any 
 one in the office to the Secretary of State or by the Secretary of State to the 
 magistrates? 
 
 As a general rule, none. 
 
 2274. Lord Steward.] Does the Secretary of State, for instance, make any 
 communication to the magistrates if he finds in a report any complaint? 
 
 He has dcme so in several cases where his attention has been specially drawn 
 to a statement in the inspector's report. 
 
 227."). Chairman.'] The Committee have become aware, by the evidence of 
 several witnesses, that the reports of the inspectors are not laid before the court 
 of quarter sessions; in your opinion, would it be a desirable change that they 
 should lie so laid before them? 
 
 1 think they shoidd be laid before the court of quarter sessions, and I have 
 reason to believe that they always were so until recently. 
 
 (37. 7.) D D 3 2276. Will
 
 214 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 G. Everest, Esq. 
 
 26ih March 1863. 
 
 2.276. Will you state what the reason is for the discontinuance of that 
 practice r 
 
 The Treasury thoughf fit to gi\e directions for reducing the number of Par- 
 liamentary papers issued for gratuitous distribution, and the inspectors conse- 
 quently, instead of being supplied with TOO, are nov.- supplied with only 50 ; 
 and therefore they are unable to distribute them as they used to do. 
 
 2277. Under the former plan, was it the practice of the inspector to send to 
 the chairman of each set of visiting justices a co])y of the report ? 
 
 One copy, I tliink, was sent to the clerk of the peace of the county ; another 
 to the visiting justices of each gaol, and others to the governor, chaplain, and 
 
 2278. Karl Ccithcart.^ Do you not think it would be very desirable that, if 
 possible, the inspector's report, relating to a particular gaol, wliich he has 
 lately inspected, should be sent as soon as possible after his visit to the visiting 
 justices, to be appended to their report, and to be presented to the court of 
 quarter sessions ? 
 
 I think it would be very desirable. 
 
 2279. Do you see any difficulty in the way of that being done ? 
 There would be none, that I am aware of. 
 
 2280. It would be very analogous, would it nor, to the system now adopted 
 with resjject to the inspectors of police who send their reports to the police 
 committee in the gaol ? 
 
 It is the same thing in principle. 
 
 2581. Lord S[e.u-ard.~\ The expense of doing so would be very small, would 
 it not ? 
 
 Very inconsiderable, I think. 
 
 •2282. Chairman .] In your opinion, I presume, it would be desirable to send 
 such copy rather to the C(;urt of quarter sessions, to be considered by the 
 magistrates at large, than to the chairman of the visiting justices ? 
 
 I think that the visiting justices should have a copy ; it would be convenient 
 to them. 
 
 2283. Therefore you v>ould send a copy in each case ? 
 
 Yes, I would send a copy to the visiting justices, and another to the clerk of 
 the peace for the use of the court of quarter sessions. 
 
 ^.'84. The Committee iiave had it in evidence that, as a rule, communica- 
 tions do not pass between the inspector and the visiting justices of the gaol 
 which is inspected. In your opinion, would it not be desn-able to make an 
 alt eration in that respect ? 
 
 T do not quite know what the practice is with regard to communications 
 between the prison inspectors and the visiting justices ; but I was under the 
 impression that communications did pass between them. 
 
 228.5. Assuming that the evidence which we have had is correct, would you 
 not say that it is desirable that there should be communications between the 
 i'.ispectors and tlie visiting justices on any sul)jects relating to the discipline or 
 to the management of the prison inspected ? 
 
 I think that they would be very convenient. 
 
 2286. Does it not almost stand to reason that the visiting justices, with 
 whom the whole machinery of prison discipline rests, should be in communi- 
 cation to that e.xtent with the inspectors ? 
 
 It is quite reasonable certainly. 
 
 22S7. Duke of Marlhorouffh.] In the case of borough gaols, to whom do you 
 consider that the report should be sent ? 
 To the mayor of the town. 
 
 02S8. You would recommend the same practice to be adopted, would you 
 not,'with regard to borough gaols as with regard to county gaols '! 
 Certainly. 
 
 2289. Chairman.]
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 215 
 
 2289. Chairman.'] Are you aware of the Act of Parliament which gives the G. Everest, Esq. 
 
 power of amalgamation between borough and county gaols ? 
 
 Yes. '^^A March 1863. 
 
 22gv. Are you aware whether that has been acted upon ? 
 If the question refers to the Act which authorises the making of contracts 
 between boroughs and counties, that has been acted upon frequently. 
 
 22qi. Has the clause which allows the amalgamation of the borough gaol 
 itself with the county gaol ever been carried into effect ? 
 
 1 am hanlly prepared to answer that question. I do not remember any 
 instance at this moment. 
 
 2292. Ave you cognizant of the state of the borougli prisons ? 
 
 Not personally cognizant, but I have reason to beheve that some of them are 
 in a very defective state. 
 
 2293. Are you aware that many of them are very small establishments, and 
 that the expense of maintaining them, and the efficiency of the machinery, are 
 altogether out of proportion ? 
 
 They are most of them too small to be efficient. 
 
 2294. Would you consider it a desirable change if power were given to the 
 Secretary of State to require the removal of prisoners from a borough prison 
 to a large county establishment ? 
 
 I tliink that a power of that kind is highly necessary. 
 
 2295. Would there be, in your opinion, any difficulties in carrying that 
 change into effect ? 
 
 I am not awiire of any. 
 
 22g6. Lord Steivard.] You state that power should exist; in whom would 
 you vest that power ? 
 
 In the Secretary of State ; to make it compulsory on the part of the borough 
 authorities, if he saw sufficient occasion for it. 
 
 2297. Chairma)!.] The Secretary of State, as a general rule, has been very 
 diffident, has he not, in enforciuLi,- upon the magistrates of counties measures 
 which even in his own opinion might seem to be desirable ? 
 
 Very much so indeed. I have always observed a great disinclination on the 
 part of tr.e Secretary of State to interfere with the discretion of the magistrates. 
 
 2298. Supposing that such a power as that to which I have alluded, namely, 
 the power to enforce the removal of borough ])risoners from borougli prisons to 
 comity establishments, were given to the Secretary of State, do you conceive 
 that there would then be the same amount of disinclination on the part of the 
 Secretary of State to act on the power thus given ? 
 
 I think not. One reason of the present diffidence I believe to be, the want of 
 adequate power on the part of the Secretary of State to enforce his views. 
 
 2299. You are aware, are you not, that there is a very large discrepancy in 
 the general system of the borough and county gaols in tliis country ? 
 
 I believe there is a very considerable discrepancy. 
 
 2300. Are you aware that the Act of Parliament and the rules which have 
 been issued by the Government for the guidance of the visiting justices, con- 
 template the existence of certain prison rules ? 
 
 Certainly. 
 
 2301. Are you aware that there are several prisons in which no rules what- 
 ever exist ? 
 
 I have reason to believe that there are several prisons in which no rules have 
 been certified, as required by the Act of Parliament. 
 
 2302. Has that been reported to the Secretary of State? 
 Kot officially. 
 
 2303. Has it never appeared in any report by the inspectors ? 
 1 do not remember having seen anything of the kind stated. 
 
 (37. 7.) D u 4 2304. Assuming
 
 216 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 G. Everest, Esq. 2304. Assuming that such a report were to be made, what would be the 
 
 ^ , ,^ T „,, practice of the office ? 
 ■ioth March 1863. -{,■,■,,■,,■. , , , „ , /-i 
 
 — . 1 take It that the course would be to call upon tlie Uourt of Quarter Sessions 
 
 to make rules under the statute, and to submit tliem to the Secretary of State 
 
 for approval. 
 
 2.305. And supposing that the court declined to make such rules, what would 
 be the course ? 
 
 That would be a contravention of the Act of Parliament, and might be the 
 subject of an indictment, or proceedings might be taken by mandamus, in the 
 Court of Queen's Bench. 
 
 2306. Are you aware that there are many gaols in which there are no certi- 
 fied cells ? 
 
 I beheve there are some. 
 
 2307. Has the Secretary of State ever taken any action on that subject ? 
 I think there was an instance of that sort some time ago. 
 
 2.:;oS. The Committee have had it in evidence that there are a large number 
 of prisons where the system of association of prisoners is still in force. Has 
 the Secretary of State ever called attention to that fact } 
 
 I think not. That is a matter which has always been left entirely to the 
 discretion of the magistrates. 
 
 2309. Has the Secretary of State ever, within your knowledge, called atten- 
 tion to any cases where the discipline might be thought to be unduly relaxed ? 
 
 I have no immediate recollection of any case of that kind. 
 
 2310. The dietary which the Secretay of State puts forward is not a compul- 
 sory dietary upon the magistrates, but it is merely a dietary for their guidance, 
 is it not ? 
 
 That is all. 
 
 231 I. In those cases where representations have been made to the Secretary 
 of^tate that the dietary was either above or below that allowed by the Govern- 
 ment, and issued in their set of rules, has the Secretary of State, as far as you 
 remember, ever taken any action ? 
 
 Any question of that kind which is brought under his notice is invariably 
 referred to the inspector of the district. 
 
 231 2. Therefore if the inspector reports the existence of an abuse, the Secre- 
 tary of State refers back that report to the inspector ? 
 
 No, to the visiting justices. 
 
 2313. Does the Secretary of State put himself in direct communication with 
 the visiting justices ? 
 
 Yes, continually ; the inspector has no power whatever to act in any way. 
 
 2314. Duke of Marllwronf/h.'] You stated just now that in the event of the 
 provisions of the Act of Parliament not being obeyed by the justices or by the 
 quarter sessions, there would be a remedy by a mandamus in I lie Court of 
 Queen's Bench : are you not aware that the Act of the 5th and Gth of William 
 the Fourth, chapter 38, enacts that the Secretary of State, if he does not 
 approve of the rules which are sent up for his approval, or on the failure of the 
 magistrates to send up proper rules, may frame rules himself which shall be 
 binding upon the magistrates .' 
 
 Yes. 
 
 231,). Has that taken place in any instance? 
 
 That power has never been exercised in any one instance. 
 
 23 1 6. It has been stated in evidence before the Committee by witnesses, that 
 that clause is inoperative in consequence of there being no penalty in the 
 Act of Parliament, which enables the Secretary of State to enforce the pro- 
 visions which the law has put in his ]io\ver. Is that the case ? 
 
 That may be so ; there is no penalty, certainly. 
 
 2317. Is not there in that case the same remedy which you suggested just 
 
 now,
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 217 
 
 now, namely, that the Court of Queen's Bench should issue a mandamus, to G. Everest, Esq. 
 
 require the justices to fulfil the provisions of the Act of Parliament? ,,~T o« 
 ir 1 1 i ii 1 11 1 26tQ March 1863. 
 No doubt the same remedy would apply. 
 
 2318. In fact the law, as it stands now, is sufficient for the purpose, if it is 
 put in force ? 
 
 As regards rules and regulations, it is so. 
 
 2319. Can you state any reason why the law has not been put in force with 
 regard to those rules ? 
 
 It arises, I think, solely from the disinchnation of the Secretary of State to 
 do anything which may be, or may be considered to be, distasteful or offensive 
 to the magistrates. 
 
 2320. Are you aware that there are many instances in which prisons have 
 failed to be provided with proper rules, in consequence of the disinclination on 
 the one hand of the justices to frame those rules, and of the Secretary of State 
 on the other hand to enforce them ? 
 
 I believe that there are several instances of that kind. 
 
 2321 . Do vou think it would be objectionable that that state of things should 
 continue ? 
 
 Certainly. 
 
 2322. Lord Wodehouse.~\ You stated just now, that you thought that the 
 Secretary of State might with advantage have power to enforce the rules ; but 
 if the Secretary of State is disinclined to exercise that power, what advantage 
 would there be in enacting a law to give him further power ? 
 
 I think the whole difficulty would be cleared away if the Secretary of State 
 were empowered to lay down rules for the government of all prisons. 
 
 2323. You have stated that the Secretary of State might by mandamus 
 enforce the rules which he never has enforced, because of his disinclination to 
 do anything that is disagreeable to the magistrates. What reason is tliere to 
 suppose that if the law is changed he would be inclined to do then what he is 
 not inclined to do now ? 
 
 I think the subject would be relieved from all difficulty if it were placed entirely 
 in his hands ; and if the rules, instead of being made by the quarter sessions, 
 were made by the Secretary of State. 
 
 2324. Duke of Marlborovgh.l Does not section 6 of the 5th and 6th of 
 William the Fourth actually place the whole thing in the Secretary of State's 
 hands ? 
 
 It may be considered to do so, but according to the present practice it is 
 inoperative. 
 
 232,5. Will you be good enough to read section 6 of the 5th and 6th of 
 WiUiam the Fourth, chapter 38 ? 
 
 " And be it further ea;icted, that in case of any clerk of the peace, clerk of 
 gaol sessions, or chief magistrate of any city, town, borough, port, or liberty, 
 neglecting or omitting to transmit to one of His Majesty's Principal Secretaries 
 of State copies of tlie rules or regulations in force for the government of any 
 prison which he is required by this Act to transmit, it shall be lawful for one of 
 liis INIajesty's Principal Secretaries of State, after the 1st day of December in 
 every year, to certify what rules and regulations he deems necessary for the 
 government of such prison ; and the rules and regulations so certified by such 
 Secretary of State shall henceforth be binding upon sheriffs and all other 
 persons, and shall be the only rules in force for the government of such prison." 
 i am quite aware that that clause has never been acted vipon. 
 
 2326. \\ ith regard to that clause, does not it put the whole power entirely in 
 the hands of the Secretary of State when the magistrates on their part fail to 
 provide proper rules for the prison ? 
 
 ^'o doubt it does. 
 
 2327. Chairman.] Are the Committee to understand that you would go so 
 far in your recommendation as to say that it would be desirable that the 
 
 (37. 7.) E E Secretary
 
 218 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 G. Everest, Esq. Secretary of State should henceforward make the rules for all the prisons, and 
 — r that those rules should be obligatory upon all prisons r 
 
 ' ^' I think that would be very desirable, and would remove all difficulty. 
 
 2328. Would not that be equivalent to a very serious curtailment of the 
 local jurisdiction of the magistrates ? 
 
 I do not think it would very materially interfere with the discretion of the 
 magistrates. 
 
 2329. Would you not find some difficulty in persuading the gentlemen who 
 now discharge the duties of visiting justices to act for the future, if the rules 
 were to be uniformly laid down by the Home Office in all their details ? 
 
 It is very likely that any proposal of that kind would meet with some 
 opposition. 
 
 2330. After all, the only rules which are really necessary might be reduced 
 to a very small number, might they not ? 
 
 Not a small number, I think. What are called the official rules and regula- 
 tions, that is to say, those which are recommended by the Secretary of State 
 for adoption, are reduced to as small a form as possible. 
 
 ^2331- Wovdd it not be possible to lay down those rules which are really 
 necessary, as well by an Act of Parliament as by the authority of the Secretary 
 of State ? 
 
 JNIany rules are laid down by the 4th of George the Fourth, chapter 64, 
 as to classification and other matters. 
 
 2332. Does not it occur to you as being a coui'se of proceeding which would 
 obviate many of the difficulties that might arise, if the power were in the Secre- 
 tary of State of laying down at his own discretion rules which are to be binding 
 on all the prisons ? 
 
 Yes, I think so. 
 
 2333. Therefore, you would prefer legislative action to the mere action of 
 the Secretary of State r 
 
 Certainly. 
 
 2334. Lord IVodehoiise.~\ After you have had legislative action, and have laid 
 down in the Act of Parliament a code of rules, who is to enforce that code ? 
 
 The Secretary of State must be entrusted with some means of enforcing the 
 rules. 
 
 2335. What means could you entrust him with ? 
 
 The best means would probably be a penalty ; but that would be a question 
 for consideration. 
 
 2336. What leads you to suppose that the Secretary of State would take 
 steps to enforce such rules, when he does not take any steps to enforce the 
 present law ? 
 
 Because the justices at present make their own rules, and he feels very great 
 difficulty in interfering with them. If the law were to make them, or if the 
 Secretary of State were to make them, it would be a different matter, and he 
 would no longer feel any difficulty ; at least, I venture to think so. 
 
 2337- Do not you think that it is more probable that the only way of giving 
 power to the Government to enforce the rules, would be for the Government to 
 pay a certain portion of the cost of the prisons, and to withhold its quota, 
 unless tlie magistrates observed certain rules? 
 
 The (lovernnuiit pays a considerable ))ortion of the expense already, that is 
 to say, certain expenditure connected with the maintenance of the prisoners, 
 for fuel, food, clothing and bedding. 
 
 2338. Can you inform the Committee what proportion is paid, and under what 
 conditions ? 
 
 The whole of the expense of the food, fuel, clothing and bedding for pri- 
 soners after conviction. 
 
 2339. The fact being as you have stated, would not it be possible to give the 
 Secretary of State powe* to withhold that payment, in cases where the rules 
 
 which
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 219 
 
 which he laid down under the authority of the Act of ParUament were not g. Everest, Esq. 
 complied with r - — - 
 
 Certainly. .6 th March . 86 3. 
 
 2340. C/tairman.] And would not some such course of proceeding be in con- 
 formity with the principle which has been adopted in the County Constabulary 
 Act, where a part of the Government payment is dependent upon the action of 
 the county r 
 
 No doubt it would. 
 
 2341. Upon the county that probably would work much better than any 
 penalty, inasmuch as the penalty would come out of the pockets of the rate- 
 payers ? 
 
 That would depend upon the nature of the arrangement. 
 
 2342. Marquess of Salisbury.^ You stated, did you not, that the Secretary 
 of State is in the constant habit of communicating with the Chairman of the 
 Visiting Magistrates ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2343. And not with the Chairman of Quarter Sessions ? 
 
 When any question is raised as to prison discipline the Secretary of State 
 always refers to the Visiting Justices. 
 
 2344. Would it not be rather desirable that it should be to the Bench, 
 generally in the shape of a communication to the Chairman of Quarter 
 Sessions ? 
 
 T hat would depend in a great degree upon the nature of the question at 
 issue, I think. 
 
 2345. Would it not have the effect of bringing forward the conduct of the 
 Visiting Justices, if the case was put to the Chairman of Quarter Sessions ? 
 
 No doubt it would. 
 
 2346. Would that be desirable in your opinion? 
 In some cases it might be desirable. 
 
 2347. Earl Cat/icart,] The Home Secretary is constantly in communication 
 with the Visiting Justices, is he not? 
 
 Continue! lly. 
 
 2348. Duke of Marlborough^ Arc you aware whether the Secretary of State 
 has the same disinclination to interfere with the borough magistrates that he 
 appears to have with regard to the county magistrates ? 
 
 Practically, it is the same thing. 
 
 2349. Chairman.] Are you aware that, under certain circumstances, the « 
 governor of the gaol is appointed by the sheriff ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2350. On the other hand the gaol governor is always paid by the magistrates ? 
 Always. 
 
 2351. Are you of opinion that that is a satisfactory arrangement? 
 I think not. 
 
 2352. Ought not the appointment to rest with those who pay the salary, so 
 that the responsibility should be as far as possible undivided ? 
 
 That would seem to be the consistent arrangement. 
 
 ^353- Do you think that it would be a desirable alteration if the appointment 
 were vested in the quarter sessions ? 
 
 1 think that all such appointments ought to be vested in the court of quarter 
 
 sessions. 
 
 2354- Earl of Romney.'] You are aware, are you not, that the sheriff is i-espon- 
 sible for the safe custody of the prisoner ? 
 Yes, quite so. 
 
 2355j_ Is it fair, seeing that the sheriff is deeply responsible in money for the 
 (3/. 7.) E E 2 safe
 
 220 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 G. Everest, Esq. Safe custody of the prisoners, that the governor of the prison should he ap- 
 
 pointed by others ? 
 
 26th ]\Iarcb^63. ^ difficulty arises out of that consideration undoubtedly, but still I think 
 that the court of quarter sessions of the county might be safely trusted to 
 appoint a proper and competent person to fill the office of governor of a gaol. 
 
 23.56. Practically, the sheriff being also ordinarily a justice of the peace, does 
 it not usually arise that there is no dispute at all between the two authorities, 
 and that each works with the other cordially ; and that while the sheriff 
 appoints to the gaol, the justices appoint the same individual to the House of 
 Correction ? 
 
 Usually, I believe it is so ; but I have heard of an instance to the contrary. 
 
 2357. That is a single instance, and it would not upset the general rule? 
 
 No, it would not. It should be borne in mind that the governor of the 
 gaol gives a bond to the sheriff to indemnify him against any loss arising through 
 escape of debtors. 
 
 2358. Might not the justices appoint a person who was very fit to have charge 
 of the House of Correction, but who would not be able to get a bond ? 
 
 No doubt. 
 
 2359. Then you are of opinion, are you not, that they might not be able 
 to get the best men r 
 
 It is possible. 
 
 2360. Chairman.'] Do you think that, practically, you would get worse men if 
 the choice rested with the quarter sessions r 
 
 I think that the chances are that you would get the best men. 
 
 2361 . Earl of liomney.'] Probably you would get the same men ? 
 Perhaps the same. 
 
 2362. Chairman.'] In your opinion, there is an anomaly under the present 
 system ? 
 
 I think there is. 
 
 2363. Have you ever considered the expediency of some change with regard 
 to the identification of prisoners after a previous conviction ? 
 
 Frequently. 
 
 2364. You are aware that it is a very great evil in the law courts, that 
 although there is a moral certainty that a man has been previously convicted, 
 yet it is impossible to prove it r 
 
 I have no doubt that a large number of instances of that kind escape detec- 
 tion altogether. 
 
 2365. Are you aware whether any arrangement with regard to the photo- 
 graphing of prisoners would be likely to be attended with advantage r 
 
 Ihat is done in some prisons, but with what effect I hardly know; I believe 
 that some identification has taken place through the means of photographs. 
 
 2366. Do you know whether it has been attended with success? 
 
 I have not heard whether it has been generally successful or not. 
 
 2367. Have you considered the possibility of effecting an arrangement for 
 the better communication between prison and prison on the subject? 
 
 1 have thougiit upon the matter, but nothing has suggested itself to me as 
 being at all likely to be effectual. 
 
 2368. Is that a matter which has ever been brought under the attention of 
 the Secretary of State on account of the practical difficulties arising from the 
 want of such communication ? 
 
 The fact has incidentally come before the Home Office on many occasions ; 
 l)ut I do not remember at this moment that any direct application has ever 
 been made to the Secretary of State on that point. 
 
 23CQ. You are of opinion that it would be very desirable if it were possible .- 
 Highly desirable in every way. 
 
 2370. Has
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 221 
 
 2370. Has any suggestion ever been made to the Home Office on that G. Everest, Esq. 
 ^^^ffL.T u ^*i . fi, T 26th March 1863. 
 
 Not that I remember, except that of brandmg. 
 
 2371. When you speak of branding, you mean affixing a mark which might 
 be done by a very painless operation on some part of the body where it would 
 not be seen ? 
 
 Yes, in the same way as marking a deserter, for instance. 
 
 2372. Is there any method whatever by which, in your opinion, it is pos- 
 sible to affix a mark which shall be ineffaceable ? 
 
 Yes ; I believe that is the case in marking deserters ; I am told that it is 
 impossible to eradicate the mark. 
 
 2373. Do you see any objection to such a proceeding ? 
 
 I cannot say that I see any objection to making a mark of that kind on a 
 man who has been convicted of felony. 
 
 2374. Do you think that there would be any objection entertained if the 
 prisoner were marked on a second conviction ? 
 
 There certainly would be less objection in a case of that kind than might be 
 supposed to exist after the first conviction of felony. 
 
 2375- Can you conceive any reasonable objection being made to such a 
 practice ? 
 
 I am not aware of any, tliough I think that it is possible that objection might 
 be raised. 
 
 2376. Earl Cathcart.] \^'ould not one objection be that you would preclude 
 all possibility of a man's commencing a new career if you were to mark 
 him r 
 
 That might be urged, but such marks would not be apparent except upon 
 examination. 
 
 2377. Chairman.] Practically, does not flogging, such as is administered in 
 the Army and Navy, leave a trace upon the man's back? 
 
 I believe so. 
 
 2378. It would be, consequently, possible to identify a man who had under- 
 gone corporal punishment, would it not, by those marks ? 
 
 That could always be done. 
 
 2379. You are aware of that? 
 
 Yes ; I have heard it over and over again. 
 
 2380. Do you believe that there is a further cause which has led to a difficulty 
 in identifying prisoners previously convicted, in the low scale of remuneration 
 which is allowed for the attendance of witnesses ? 
 
 I have understood that there has been a great unwillingness on the part of 
 prison officers to travel to a distance to give evidence so as to identify a prisoner, 
 in consequence of the low rate of remuneration to witnesses. 
 
 2381. Has a representation to that effect been very frequently made to the 
 Home Office ? 
 
 Very frequently, I believe. 
 
 2382. Has it produced any change or any revision of the scale as it was 
 originally determined ? 
 
 1 believe that the Secretary of State has recently amended the scale with 
 regard to certain classes of witnesses. 
 
 2383. Are you aware whether there have not been verv great complaints 
 since that revision took place ? 
 
 That has not come within my own knowledge. I have not heard of any com- 
 plaints ; but the revised scale has only been very recently adopted. 
 
 _ 2384. Can you put in a return showing the scale of allowances as it pre- 
 viously existed and the revised scale which has recently been adopted .' 
 
 I can procure the two scales for the Committee. 
 
 23S5. Earl Catkcart.'] There are only about 160 prisons in England and 
 Wales ; would there be any difficulty in circulating some paper, in the nature 
 
 f37- 7.) E E 3 of
 
 222 Mli>JUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 G. Everest, Enq. of a Police Gazette, or in the nature of Notes and Queries, amongst all thos e 
 
 AT — Z -« prisons ? 
 26th March i«63. j ^^ ^^j. |^j-^q^ ^^^^^ there would; there is a Pohce Gazette already published. 
 
 2386. I mean an analogous paper to Notes and Queries, regarding prisons ? 
 I do not know that there would be ; it would lead to some expense. 
 
 2387. Have you anything to do with the Police Gazette ? 
 Nothing whatever. 
 
 2388. Eixrl of Ducie.l Do you think that the existing number of prison in- 
 spectors, namely, two, is sufficient for the work that they have to perform ? 
 
 I think quite so. 
 
 2389. Lo7'd Steward.'] Do you think it better that the country should be per- 
 manently divided into two districts, to be regularly inspected by the same 
 inspector, or that they should visit the districts alternately, as in Ireland? 
 
 Something may be said on both sides of that question ; but it is generally 
 remarked, 1 think, that it is more convenient to have one inspector for one 
 district. They become better acquainted with the mode of administering the 
 discipline, and they are better able to revert to circumstances which have taken 
 place at some prior period, which is sometimes desirable. 
 
 23(^0. Lord WodehouseJ] Are you aware that, in point of fact, the inspectors 
 do not visit each prison every year now ? 
 
 They do not, I believe, sometimes ; it is clear that they cannot, because every 
 prison in their district is not always reported upon in their annual report. 
 
 2391. Would it not be desirable to make it imperative upon them to visit 
 each prison at least once in the 12 months ? 
 
 I think it would. 
 
 2392. Earl Catficart-] Ought there not to be a third inspector in the case of 
 the illness of one of the inspectors, or in case of a protracted inquiry ? 
 
 No difficulty has arisen in that respect. 
 
 2393. Supposing one of the inspectors were ill, what would be done in that 
 event ? 
 
 The Secretary of State has the power of making an interim appointment. 
 
 2394. Duke of Marlborough^ He has the power, has he not, to appoint any 
 number not exceeding five '? 
 
 Yes ; and he has also the power to appoint other persons to assist the inspec- 
 tors, if necessary ; so that any difficulty which might arise from the illness of 
 an inspector could be very easily met by the existing law. 
 
 2395. Earl Cathcart.'] With regard to pardons upon medical grounds, are 
 they of very frequent occurrence ? 
 
 Very frequent indeed. 
 
 2396. Does not that influence the statistics of mortaUty in prison a great deal 1 
 It must do so. 
 
 2397- If the men are likely to die, they let them out of prison, do they not ? 
 Usually. 
 
 2398. Chairman.'] That is always done, is it not, by warrant from the Secre- 
 tary of State ? 
 
 It is done by a pardon signed by the Queen. 
 
 2399. Confining your remarks to those prisoners who are under sentence for 
 two years imprisonment, and no more, can you state to the Committee the 
 number of commutations of sentences which have taken place on any grounds 
 during the last year r 
 
 I have no means of giving the number at this moment ; I can easily ascertain 
 it, but it is not large ; it is a very small proportion, I should say, in relation 
 to the whole number of prisoners. 
 
 2400. On what grounds besides medical grounds are sentences of under two 
 years commuted ? 
 
 The grounds are so very various that I could hardly attempt to give a descrip- 
 tion of them. Sometimes it is considered, upon a review of the case, that the 
 
 prisoner
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 223 
 
 prisoner has undergone sufficient punishment for his offence, and sometimes G. Evcreit, Esq. 
 
 the remission takes place on tlie eround of the exemplary conduct of the , , 
 
 *. , . Ill • i.r 1 Q6th Mf.rch i86s. 
 prisoner, or some special service rendered, and on various other grounds. •^ 
 
 2401. Has commutation of a sentence ever taken place upon the ground of 
 merely the good conduct of a prisoner, apart from any particular action ? 
 
 In many cases. The Gaol Act enables justices to recommend prisoners for 
 pardon on the ground of exemplary conduct in gaol. 
 
 2402. Is the Secretary of State considered to have tlie power to commute on 
 the general grounds of good conduct, or is he limited to where a prisoner has 
 performed some act, such as interfering in an attempt to escape, or murder, or 
 any tiling of that kind ? 
 
 The CJrown is not limited in any way as to commutation or remission of 
 sentence ; but as a matter of practice, remission does not take place on the 
 ground of good conduct in j)rison, unless the prisoner is recommended by the 
 A'isiting magistrates through the court of quarter sessions, on account of " extra- 
 ordinary diligence or merit," in terms of the Act of Parliament. 
 
 2403. Earl of Romney.'] Do the visiting justices often make use of that power ? 
 Yes, they do. 
 
 2404. Chaiimnii.'] Can you make a return of the immber of cases within 
 the last 10 years where a commutation of sentence has taken place upon those 
 grounds r 
 
 Certainly. 
 
 2405. Duke of A/arlhnroitgh.] On whose recommendation does the Secretary 
 of State usually act in granting those remissions? 
 
 On his own view. 
 
 2406. Tiie circumstances of the case must be brought before him by some- 
 body. On whose recommendation is it that he generally proceeds to grant the 
 remission of a sentence ? 
 
 That is a very large question indeed, and it would take me some time, to go 
 into full detail. Whenever an application is made to the Secretary of State on 
 behalf of any prisoner, he takes such measures as he may think fit for inquiring 
 into the facts of the case, and he disposes of the application accordingly. If 
 he finds upon inquiry that there are grounds which, in his judgment, afford a 
 fair reason for a mitigation of the sentence, he advises it ; if he thinks that is 
 not the case, he takes no action whatever. 
 
 2407. Do I understand you aright that you are now alluding to cases of 
 remission of sentences in county prisons ? 
 
 Yes, entirely in reference to county prisons. 
 
 2408. Are recommendations, with regard to the remission of a sentence, 
 ever made and acted upon contrary to the opinion of the county justices, or the 
 visiting justices of a prison ? 
 
 Not that I know of. If the Secretary of State, on inquiring into any case, 
 sees ground for remitting a portion of a sentence, he does not refer the matter 
 to the visiting justices at all. 
 
 2409. Chairman.'] Is it within your knowledge that the Secretary of State 
 has ever commuted a sentence, without any communication passing between 
 him and the magistrates of the county. 
 
 Continually. 
 
 2410. Lord Wodchnuse?\ Does he communicate with the Chairman of the 
 Quarter Sessions who sentenced the prisoner ? 
 
 Very frequently, but not invariably. 
 
 2411. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Does he not invariably send to the judge, 
 who tried the offender, and ask for the notes of the trial. 
 
 In the generality of cases, but not invariably. 
 
 241 2. In what cases does he not do so ? 
 
 Where a pardon, for instance, is recommended on medical grounds. 
 
 2413. But in all other cases does he do so? 
 
 C37. 7.) E E 4 There
 
 224 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 G. Everest, Etq. There are some exceptions, but usually the case is referred to the judge 
 
 n , .. — 7 . before whom it is tried before any remission of sentence is granted. 
 2Gth March 1863. ■' ° 
 
 _ 2414. Lord Steward.'] That would be in cases where a man performs any 
 
 meritorious act in gaol. 
 
 Yes, certainly, 
 
 2415. Chairman.'] Putting aside the question of medical grounds, is it within 
 your knowledge that the Secretary of State has ever commuted a sentence oriu 
 the ground of severity, or that the evidence was insufficient, without consult- 
 ing the Chairman of the Quarter Sessions, or the judge ? 
 
 No ; he would not do so upon that ground without consulting the judge. 
 
 2416. Lord Jl'odehouse.'] The cases to which you refer would be either where 
 a sentence is commuted on medical grounds, or for some special meritorious 
 act, with the knowledge of the prison authorities. 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2417. Where, therefore, the judge could have no knowledge of what had 
 taken place. 
 
 Quite so. 
 
 2418. Chairma7i.] What is the form of the commutation of a sentence r 
 The form is a warrant signed by the Queen ; a pardon, in fact. 
 
 24 1 g. Therefore, the Secretary of State advises the Crown to commute the 
 sentence of such and such a prisoner ? 
 He does. 
 
 2420. Duke of Marlborough.] Does every case of this nature come under the 
 cognisance of the Secretary of State ? 
 
 Every one of them. 
 
 242 1 . And he then acts upon his own discretion ? 
 Entirely. 
 
 2^22. Are there frequent cases of remission of sentence for good conduct in 
 prison ? 
 
 They are not numerous, as compared with the whole number of prisoners. 
 
 2423. In cases of that sort are the visiting justices consulted beforehand? 
 The recommendation emanates from the visiting justices, in the first jjlace ;- 
 
 the Act requires that the visiting justices should recommend to the Court of 
 Quarter Sessions, and that the Court of Quarter Sessions should then submit 
 the case to the Secretary of State. 
 
 2424. Does the Secretary of State exercise the power of prospectively short- 
 ening a sentence ? 
 
 Yes, that is done sometimes ; that is to say, a sentence of two years may be 
 reduced to 18 months. 
 
 2425. Before the expiration of the 18 months ? 
 Yes, certainly ; that is frequently done. 
 
 2426. Chairman.] On what ground is that done ? 
 
 Upon various grounds ; the good conduct or special services of a prisoner, or 
 the favouralile result of inquiry into the case, or possibly severity of sentence, 
 and on other grounds. 
 
 2427. Where a remission is made on the ground of the severity of the 
 sentence, is the judge or the chairman of the quarter sessions consulted ? 
 
 Yes, most generally. 
 
 2428. But not invariably? 
 
 There have been cases in which no consultation of that kind has taken place ; 
 but usuall V it is the practice to refer to the judge before whom the trial took place. 
 
 2429. On whose representation would the Secretary of State be moved to 
 advise the Crown in that matter ? 
 
 The action of the Secretary of State would not depend upon the quarter from 
 whence the application came ; it would rest entirely ujjon the facts of the case. 
 Applications are received sometimes from prisoners, scmietimes from their friends, 
 and sometimes from the counsel for the defence, as well as from other quarters. 
 
 2430. On.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 225 
 
 2430. On what ground could the Secretary of State himself go, except the G. Everest, Esq. 
 notes of the presiding judge ? ~" 
 
 He has no other information, except perhaps prison and police reports as to ^ ti ar c 11863. 
 character, and so on. 
 
 243 1 . But what facts would the Secretary of State have, upon which to base 
 his opinion, apart from the notes of the presiding judge ? 
 
 That would depend entirely upon the nature of the case. 
 
 2432. Can you conceive any case in wdiich the Secretary of State could 
 come to a conclusion without " having before him the notes of the presiding 
 judge ? 
 
 In some of the cases to which I have referred, such as the good conduct 
 of a prisoner, &c., remission takes place upon grounds wholly ii-respective of 
 the facts of the case. 
 
 2433. I am dealing entirely with those cases where remission is made on the 
 ground of the severity of the sentence ; what facts are there upon which the 
 Secretary of State could proceed ? 
 
 He could not proceed upon any facts except those disclosed at the trial, or 
 ascertained by subsequent inquiry. 
 
 2434. Is there any official record which would disclose those facts at the 
 trial, except the notes of the presiding judge ? 
 
 None. 
 
 ^435- Therefore, the Secretary of State would be acting entirely from his 
 own fancy and pleasure if he were to make any change in a sentence without 
 previously consulting the notes of the judge, which alone are the authority for 
 any particular fact ? 
 
 No doubt he would ; but that has so seldom happened, that I might almost 
 say it never takes place, 
 
 2436. Duke of Marlborough.'] As I understand you, the notes of the pre- 
 siding judge are the only record that the Secretary of State would have to act 
 upon in the remission of a sentence on the ground of severity ? 
 
 The only one. 
 
 2437. And those notes, as I understand you, would be invariably called 
 for? 
 
 Yes, almost invariably. 
 
 2438. Is it a fact that applications for the remission of a sentence of that 
 nature are made soon after the sentence has been passed ? 
 
 Frequently. 
 
 2439. ^"^^ is it the case that the Secretary of State occasionally acts on that 
 application, and after reviewing the notes of the judge soon after the sentence 
 has been passed by the judge, proceeds to remit the sentence ? 
 
 Yes, that happens sometimes. 
 
 2440. So that, in fact, the remission would rest solely upon the different 
 view of the case taken by the Secretary of State from that which the judge 
 took. 
 
 Not upon that ground ostensibly, I think ; although practically it would come 
 to that. 
 
 244 1 . Earl Cathcart.] Is it not the invariable practice, in asking for the facts, 
 to ask for the opinion of the judge, as well as a statement of the facts from the 
 judge or the chairman of the quarter sessions ? 
 
 Invariably ; in asking for the notes, the opinion of the judge is always 
 requested. 
 
 2442. Chairman.'] Are the Committee to understand that there are no cases 
 whatever upon record in the Home Office where a commutation of a sentence 
 has been made by the authority of the Secretary of State, on the ground of the 
 excessive severity of the sentence, without previously calling for the notes of 
 the presiding judge ? 
 
 I cannot go so far as to say that ; cases of that kind may have occurred, but 
 they are very rare. 
 
 (37. 7.) F F 2443. Lord
 
 226 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 G- Everest, Esq. 2443. Lord Wvdchoiise.] When a question of that kind occurs, upon v/hat 
 
 does the Secretary of State base his decision ? 
 
 26th March 1863. Up„ii iiis own view entirely. 
 
 2444. Chairman.'] Have you become aware, in the Home Office, of the great 
 inequaUty of the sentences pronounced by judges or chairmen of quarter sessions 
 for the same offence ? 
 
 That has long been very apparent. 
 
 244.5. Is that inequality to be found even in the sentences at the same assize 
 or the same quarter sessions ? 
 
 Not so much so at the same assize or quarter sessions, I think. 
 
 2446. Has the attention of the Secretary of State been drawn to that fact, 
 and have any steps ever been adopted with a view to produce greater equality 
 of sentence ? 
 
 His attention has often been drawn to the fact, but no steps have been taken 
 upon the subject. 
 
 2447. Can you make any suggestion to the Committee upon that point ? 
 
 I am afraid I cannot ; the Secretary of State never pretends to interfere with 
 the discretion of the judges in the administration of the criminal law. 
 
 2448. Do not you think that the judges themselves consider that inequality 
 of sentence a ver}" great misfortune : 
 
 It is very likely they do. 1 never have heard the opinion of any of the judges 
 upon the subject ; but it must be quite apparent to them all that great diversity 
 of practice exists. 
 
 2449. For identically the same offence a very different sentence is continually 
 passed ? 
 
 No doubt. 
 
 2450. Lord SlciLHird.'] Do you know any cases in which tlie Secretary of 
 State has mitigated a sentence contrary to the opinion of the judge ? 
 
 I am (juite suie that that can have happened but very rarely ; I do not re- 
 member any case of the kind at this moment. Sometimes the judges decline to 
 express an opinion. 
 
 2451 . Marquess of Sa/isbuiy.] A judge seldom expresses an opinion, does he ? 
 Usually he does, but sometimes he does not ; he is always asked to do so 
 
 whenever he is referred to. 
 
 24.52. Earl of Roi)niey.'\ He is sometimes asked to give his opinion without 
 his notes of the evidence ; but if he is asked for the notes of the evidence he is 
 always asked for his opinion, is he not ? 
 
 Always. There is usually a particular form of reference to the judges, and 
 the same words are used upon all occasions ; the request is for a copy of 
 the notes of the evidence, together with the judge's opinion upon the case, 
 
 24.5.3. Duke of Maiiborough.] Is it the case that the judges invariably 
 forward their notes of the evidence upon the request being made to them ? 
 Always. 
 
 24,54. Earl Cathcart.l Are you aware that religious toleration prevails in all 
 prisons, or nearly all prisons ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2455. I'hat is to say, if a prisoner wishes to see a clergyman of a particular 
 persuasion, that clergyman is sent for ? 
 Certainly. 
 
 Tlie Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Captain
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 227 
 
 Captain CHARLES MAXWELL LUCKRAFT, r.n., is called in, and examined Captain 
 
 as follows : ^- ^- Lnckraft, 
 
 R N. 
 
 •2A^(>. Chairman?^ YOU are at the head of the Naval Prison at Lewes, are — - 
 
 ' ^ -' 26th March 1863. 
 you not ? 
 
 I am. 
 
 2457. Will you state to the Committee when that prison was established ? 
 It was first opened for the reception of prisoners on the 7th of April last. 
 
 24.58. Therefore it has been established very nearly one year ? 
 Yes, very nearly a year. 
 
 2459. M'ill you state generally, before going into details, whether the result 
 of that prison has been satisfactory ? 
 
 So far as one can observe, and from what one hears, it is very satisfactory. 
 
 2460. What is the size of the prison? 
 
 It is capable of containing, 1 think, 180 prisoners with comfort, but more 
 might be crowded into it ; it is the old county prison. 
 
 246 1 . At present, what is the number of naval prisoners in confinement ? 
 One hundred and twenty. 
 
 2462. On what system is the prison constructed ? 
 
 They are mostly separate cells, but we class the prisoners. I have an 
 associated class ; but the generality of the prisoners are in separate cells. 
 
 2463. How many cells are there? 
 I think about 100. 
 
 2464. Are those cells upon the same model and plan as the Pentonville 
 cells ? 
 
 I think not. 
 
 2465. Are they larger or smaller? 
 
 They are large cells. I am not quite prepared to state their dimensions now, 
 although I sent their dimensions to the Admiralty the other day ; but they are 
 large vvell-ventilated cells. I should think the size is about 12 feet by 10, and 
 probably nine feet high. 
 
 24G6. Is there any inspector appointed by the Government as an inspector 
 of naval prisons ? 
 
 ^^'e have quarterly visitors and monthly visitors, but I am not aware of any 
 inspector biing appointed- by the Government. Sir Joshua Jebb has been 
 down twice, and looked into the working of the prison, but whether he is 
 appointed by the Admiralty or not I am not prepared to say ; I think not. 
 
 2467. Are the cells certified previous to their use ? 
 Yes. 
 
 2468. Do you light the cells with gas ? 
 
 No, they are not lighted with gas ; they have a trap-door, and they work in 
 the cells by the hght which is afforded by the gas in the corridors. 
 
 2469. Where does the ventilation proceed from ? 
 
 The ventilation proceeds from a simple hole in the wall from the corridor; 
 but the cells are very high, and there is a large window. 
 
 2470. Is it in the power of the prisoners to open that window and close it at 
 their own pleasure ? 
 
 Yes, it is. 
 
 247 1 . Within the cells what is the bedding which is in use ? 
 
 The bedding I manufacture myself ; it is made out of the fibre of the cocoa- 
 nut, stutfed and well packed, and it forms a very nice elastic bed ; and the 
 bedding consists of a rug and one or two blankets at the discretion of the 
 governor. 
 
 2472. Do the prisoners sleep in hammocks ? 
 
 No, they sleep on iron bedsteads ; the first week they have to sleep on bed- 
 boards. '1 hey are not allowed a bed except at the discretion of the governor. 
 (37. 7.) F F 2 2473. Is
 
 228 
 
 MINTJTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Captain 
 C. M. Luckraft, 
 
 B. N. 
 
 26tli March 1863. 
 
 2473. Is there a mattress added to the iron bedstead ? 
 
 Yes, there is a mattress placed on the bedstead when they have a bed 
 allowed them. 
 
 2474. Do the prisoners wear the prison clothing or their own clothing ? 
 They wear the prison clothing. 
 
 247,5. What does that consist of? 
 
 It is a uniform of my own, as nearly as possible the same description of 
 frock as the sailors wear ; it is made of a kind of stout grey frieze for the 
 winter, both the frock and the trowsers, and the the trowsers are fitted with 
 a strap and buckle behind, not suspended by braces, so as to leave the limbs 
 and body free ; they have also a check shirt and a flannel shirt and a flannel 
 drawers, worsted stockings, and shoes. 
 
 2476. That you think sufficient ': 
 Quite sufficient ; then in the summer 
 dunearee trowsers. 
 
 time, in warm weather, we have 
 
 2477. Are books gllowed in the cells ? 
 
 Religious books only are allowed to those prisoners who are not in the first 
 class ; we class men according to good conduct. 
 
 2478. At whose discretion are those religious books issued? 
 
 The chaplain undertakes the issue of them, and has the charge of them ; 
 there are religious books for tlie Protestant as well as the Roman Catholic 
 pi'isoners which they may have. 
 
 2479. ^^ t^^^ chaplain limited in the distribution of the books by any rule? 
 No ; but it is the rule that there are to be religious books in every cell. 
 
 24S0. Are books of any other nature allowed to prisoners? 
 
 Yes ; we have a library for those pi-isoners who are in the first class. 
 
 2481. The first class, I presume, are composed of those prisoners who have 
 acquired that privilege by good conduct r 
 Yes. 
 
 general 
 
 rule included in the first 
 
 24S2. What is the total number as a 
 class r 
 
 I have never exceeded 26 yet. 
 
 2483. How many classes are there ? 
 
 I am simply working it in two classes ; that is my own idea ; the first and 
 third class, in military prisons they frequently have an intermediate class, 
 the second class ; but I could not see the utility of it very much, and so I 
 worked it with two, with the permission of the Admiralty, and it was a saving 
 in expense also. 
 
 24S4. ^Yhat is the ordinary length of the sentences in naval prisons ? 
 
 They vary very much ; in the case of prisoners who are sent from the 
 Channel Fleet, and who are not tried by court-martial, the maximum is three 
 months, and the minimum about 28 or 21 days ; but if they are tried by court 
 martial they are sentenced to as much as two years. 
 
 248.5. Are your classes arranged simply upon the principle of good or of 
 indiff"erent conduct or, are they arranged upon the principle of length of 
 sentence ? 
 
 Upon the principle of length of sentence, and of good conduct also. Those 
 men who are in for a short time require the full sting of their punishment ; and 
 altlKjugh a man may be sentenced to a long im]irisonment, yet he probably is 
 not a wor.-e man for (hat; he may have connuitted an offence upon the spur of 
 the moment, which he has regretted afterwards, but yet, having been brought 
 to a court martial, he is sentenced for a long period. 
 
 2486. 'ihen you are without any rules which would place the Committee in 
 possession of precise information as to the distribution of the prisoners into 
 those two classes ? 
 
 It is simply from good conduct, at the discretion of the governor. Hitherto 
 
 I have
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 229 
 
 I have not put a man into the first class whose sentence does not exceed three Captain 
 months ; but there is* no reason why it should not be done, and I think by-and- ^- ^^- Luchrafl, 
 by it may be done. '_ J 
 
 2487. Therefore, are the Committee to understand that the large majority ^Gth March 18G3. 
 of naval prisoners are in the third class : 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2488. And a very small minority are in the first ? 
 Yes, at present it is so. 
 
 2489. And that none enter the first class who are committed to prison for 
 short sentences ? 
 
 There is no reason why they should not, but that is left to the discretion of 
 the governor, in a great measure. 
 
 2490. And that none enter the first class under any circumstances, unless for 
 good conduct? 
 
 Not unless for good conduct, under any circumstances. I have had men in 
 for long sentences whose conduct has been troublesome, and they have never 
 entered the first class. 
 
 249 1 . You have framed this system, have you not, very much upon the 
 system adopted in military pi'isons ? 
 
 Very much. 
 
 24q2. So far as classes or gradations are concerned, you have merely varied 
 it by dropping the intermediate class? 
 
 Simply by that. We save by that means one principal warder and the 
 warders of one ward. 
 
 2493. Have you any good-conduct badges, or any marks? 
 
 Yes ; I have a distinctive badge, which is a red band upon the left arm. 
 
 2494. Do you find that that produces a good deal of emulation amongst the 
 prisoners ? 
 
 Very much. 
 
 249.5. Are there any prisoners in the third class who are in possession of 
 those badges ? 
 
 No, none in the third class ; they only gain that badge by being removed to 
 the first class. 
 
 24()6. Is there only one set of marks ? 
 
 There is only one set of marks. In the case of those men who are in for a 
 very short time, and who are not admitted into the first class, it is scarcely 
 worth while to make any distinction. 
 
 2497. When the sentence does not exceed two months, the system of grada- 
 tions and good-conduct badges can hardly come into operation ? 
 
 Scarcely ; it takes some time before you can really tind out what a man is. 
 When they first come in they all commit offences, and they try very frecpiently 
 to kick against the rules of discipline, and that prevents them for a certain time 
 from having a mark of distinction. 
 
 2498. Can you inform the Committee what is the kind of good conduct for 
 which you would award one of those badges ; is it positive good conduct, or is 
 it merely the negative virtue of abstaining from breaking the prison rules 1 
 
 For positive good conduct, and also for not coming before me in the De- 
 faulters' Book, and for activity and readiness to do that which is right and 
 proper. 
 
 2499. Do they work by time, or by piece ? 
 By time. 
 
 2500. What is the nature of the work on which prisoners are employed ? 
 We commence simply with the work of picking oakum. The hard labour is 
 
 similar to that in use in military prisons ; it consists of the shot drill ; but in 
 consequence of a suggestion which I made to the Admiralty the other day, I 
 employed all the first-class men upon work connected with the steam reserve of 
 the different ports, making useful articles for the steam reserve ; that is, employ- 
 (3r. 7.) F F 3 ing
 
 230 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Cnptain ing them at. tUeir profession instead of the monotonous dull work of picking 
 C. Il.Luckraft, oakum continually. They appreciate that very much ; anJl although it is not 
 ^•■^* hard labour, yet it is continuous labour; they are at it from morning till 
 
 nisrht. 
 
 a6th March 1863. 
 
 2501. Is there a strong wish on the part of those who are in the third class 
 to get into the fii'st class, in order to obtain that employment ? 
 Yes, doubtless. 
 
 2,502. What is the work upon which the first class are exclusively employed ? 
 At present they have been employed in making what is called matting for 
 boats' gripes, of various sizes. 
 
 ~5'^3- Will you state whether that is work to which they have been accus- 
 tomed on board ship previous to their entering the prison ? 
 
 Yes, they have been brought up to it; it is a part of the profession of seamen ; 
 I mean making matting for harbour gaskets, and sea gaskets, and junk wads 
 for guns, swabs, and various other articles. That kind of woi-k is very remuner- 
 ative work ; it i^ays the prison very well ; we get very nearly at the rate of 
 1,000 /. a year for labour. 
 
 2.504. Is that very coarse work ? 
 
 Some of it is very fine and neat work, it is made with what we call a sword ; 
 the different parts of the rope are wove one inside the other, and liove on with 
 a heavy piece of wood called a sword, it is quite a sailor's work. 
 
 2.505. Is there any other form of more penal labour than that ? 
 No, none that I have adopted. 
 
 2506. Does shot drill form a part of your labour ? 
 Yes, it forms a part of the labour of the third class. 
 
 2507. How many hours a day are the prisoners exercised at that shot drill? 
 
 " An hour and a half in the morning, and an hour and a half in the after- 
 noon. 
 
 2508. I presume on board ship they have never been exercised at shot drill ? 
 Never, except by simpl}' loading and carrying shot to supply the guns at 
 
 exercise. 
 
 2.509. What is the weight of the shot ? 
 
 32 ll)s. and 2-1 lbs.; we give the 24-pounder to the weaker-bodied men, and 
 the 32-pounder to those who can carry it. 32 lbs. is the maximum weight. 
 
 2510. Is the drill which is in use of a very simple nature ? 
 Verj' simple. 
 
 2,5 1 I . You are aware that in military prisons the shot drill admits of a good 
 deal of complication ; have you confined it to one particular form, the drill ? 
 One particular diagram. 
 
 25 12. Could you put that diagram in ? 
 
 Yes, tliis is it {handing the same to the Chairman). The men work in lines, 
 and when one rack is empty he returns, and it is filled by his neighbour. 
 
 251.3. Have you ever found any impracticability in teaching sailors to perform 
 shot drill ? 
 
 Not at all ; it is done in one minute. 
 
 2514. From your experience on that ])oint, would you say that there would 
 be any jiractical difficulty in teaching civilians in a county prison to perform 
 shot drill ? 
 
 Not at all ; I think it is the best thing for vagrants. 
 
 2,515. Since the shot drill has been tried iu naval prisons, have there been 
 any cases of rupture ? 
 
 No, none. We are very particular indeed in examining a man before he 
 undertakes the shot drill ; a man who comes into prison ruptured is not 
 allowed to be put to shot drill ; and we are very particular in how he lifts the 
 shot, so as to prevent a prisoner being ruptured. 
 
 2516. Might it not be a safeguard against the possibility of such an accident 
 
 if
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISOX DISCIPLINE. 231 
 
 if a man were employed with rather a lighter shot whenever there was any sus- Captain 
 
 picion of rupture ? 'CM. Luckraft. 
 
 Possibly it would ; but I think that a 32-pounder shot is not too heavy for a " 
 
 man with any strength at all. „^., ,t k or 
 
 ■' o 20th March 1863. 
 
 2517. Does the shot rest upon the ground ? ■ 
 
 No ; it is raised about four inches upon a cast block, a Uttle scored to take 
 the shot. 
 
 25 I 8. Of course the smaller the action of stooping the less would be the ex- 
 er tion r 
 Of course. 
 
 2519. If the shot were of a lighter form, would not the task itself be equally 
 irksome ? 
 
 It would require the same amount of stooping, but not the same amount of 
 labour. 
 
 2520. Duke of Marlborough.'] Would the wearing of a belt at all help to 
 prevent rupture 1 
 
 Yes, I should think it would ; it certainly assists them, because men have 
 frequently asked me to be permitted to have a belt, which they have brought 
 in privately to the prison, and I have always granted it. 
 
 2521. From what you state about the dress, the trousers being fastened with 
 a buckle behind, that would act as a belt I presume? 
 
 Yes, I consider it a great relief to them. 
 
 2522. Chairman.'] Shot drill is an essentially unproductive form of labour, is 
 it not ? 
 
 Quite unproductive. 
 
 2523. The Committee have had conflicting evidence upon that point ; they 
 have been informed by some witnesses that unproductive labour has a tendency 
 to create great degradation and irritation in the mind of a prisoner ; have you 
 ever observed that in the case of naval prisoners ? 
 
 I have not observed that ; of course one can scarcely arrive at their feelings 
 in that respect ; but I have not observed that it is so. I think it is obvious that 
 if they knew that their hard labour was productive labour, it would not be the 
 same amount of hard labour as if it were unproductive. 
 
 2524. Would you not be aware of it if there was a very strong feeling of that 
 kind? 
 
 Yes, I think so ; seamen look upon oakum picking as far more degrading than 
 the shot exercise. 
 
 2525. Why is that? 
 
 It is the simple, continuous, monotonous operation of picking oakum that 
 they dislike so much ; I believe that sometimes, when they are taken from 
 the room where they are picking oakum, it is a relief to them to go to the shot 
 exercise. 
 
 2526. Earl of Dudleij.] Oakum picking is not hard labour, is it ? 
 
 No, it is continuous, monotonous labour, not hard labour ; and it is more 
 offensive to them. 
 
 2527. Marquess of Salisbury^ Does oakum picking spoil their hands for any 
 finer work ? 
 
 At first it does, but they soon get accustomed to it. 
 
 2528. Does it spoil the hands of a prisoner for such a thing as picking pockets 
 afterwards ? 
 
 I think not. 
 
 2.V2q. Earl of Romnei/.] A sailor would have a particular disHke, I presume, 
 to picking oakum ? 
 
 Yes ; 1 think that a sailor has a great dislike to it, and one -half of the offences 
 that I have to punish are for tlie non-performance of their oakum picking in 
 their cells at night. 
 
 (37- 7.) F F 4 2530. Chairman.]
 
 232 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Captain 2530. Chairman.'] Do you exact a particular quantity of oakum pickino- ? 
 
 C. 31. Luckrqft, yes, according to the nature of tlie yarns ; tlie chief warder has particular 
 ' orders to issue the quantity accoiding to the nature of the yarn. 
 
 26th March 1863. 253 1. What punishment would you award for the non-performance of the 
 
 — ■ ■ — proper amount of work r 
 
 If it is done a second time, very likely I should stop the man's supper; or if it 
 was a meat -dinner day, I would take his meat dinner from him and give him 
 the ordinary diet of meal instead. 
 
 253'2. Do you employ solitary confinement as a punishment ? 
 1 employ separate confinement, not solitary. 
 
 2.533- Do you ever reduce the diet to bread and water ? 
 Yes, in case of offences against the prison rules. 
 
 2.534. Are you empowered to administer corporal punishment ? 
 No, there is no Act of Parliament for that. 
 
 2535- Is it impossible to apply corporal punishment ? 
 It is not jjossible ; I have not the power. 
 
 2530. Is there no authority in the naval prisons which has the power of 
 ordering corporal punishment ? 
 None. 
 
 2537. Not for any offence, however bad it may be ? 
 None. 
 
 2538. Earl of Romney.~\ Under what law are you ? 
 
 Under the naval marine law ; but it was the opinion of the Admiralty 
 Attorney, in drawing up rules and regulations or the government of the prison, 
 that there was no Act of Parliament authorising corporal punishment for naval 
 prisoners on shore, or for offences committed in a naval prison, and that it would 
 require a separate Act of Parliament for that. 
 
 2.539- You are not under the Naval Mutiny Act, are you ? 
 No. 
 
 2540. Chainnaii.'\ Is not that, in your opinion, a very serious omission ? 
 
 No case has arisen yet in which 1 should like to use the cat. I have had one 
 or two tried by^ the Board of Visitors, but their powers are rather circum- 
 scribed. 
 
 2541. Officers commanding ships are empowei'ed in courts martial to order 
 corporal punishment, are they not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2,542. But there is no power that can order corporal punishment, as I under- 
 stand you, in the administx'ation of naval prisoners r 
 None. 
 
 2543. Lord Steward.] You stated that you had had them tried by the Board 
 of Visitors ; who are the visitors ? 
 
 They are the Naval Commander-in-Chief at Portsmouth, the Flag Captain, ex 
 officio, the Honourable Mr. Brand, the Member for Lewes, and Mr. Whitfield, 
 Mr. Molyneux, Mr. Godle, three of the county magistrates. 
 
 2.544. Earl of 3Ialviesbiirij.] It would appear from the Act, that the officer 
 who commits the delinquent to prison has a right to have him flogged before 
 he is sent to prison ? 
 
 Yes ; before he leaves the ship that can be done. 
 
 2.54.5. And then lie is sent to your prison ? 
 
 Yes, very often in sentences of a court martial that is done. 
 
 2.546. Lord Steward^ You could not punish corporally any offence com- 
 mitt(>d within the prisun? 
 
 No; I have no power whatever to do so. 
 
 2547. Chairman.] Do you ever punish by ordering the prisoner to sleep upon 
 the bare boards ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2548. Is
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 233 
 
 2548. Is that a punishment which you find sahitary ? Capiain 
 
 Yes, very indeed ; they miss their bed very much. C. M. Liickraft, 
 
 2/149. 1^° ^^^^y dishke that very much ? 
 
 Yes, they dislike it very much ; but I have not the power to order it for more 26th March 1863. 
 than three days at a time. 
 
 2,550. Under what powers do you act ; is it under a statute ? 
 My power is simply laid down in the rules and regulations ; I have nothing 
 for my guidance but that. 
 
 2551. Earl of Rumney.'] By whom are those rules made ? 
 I'hey are framed by the Admiraltv under the Act of Parliament. 
 
 2552. Chairman.'] Will you be good enough to put in a copy of those rules 
 and regulations ? 
 
 Yes — {delivering in tlie same). 
 
 2553. I see here that, at page 38, the diet of the prisoners is laid down ; and 
 I perceive that there are three classes of diet ? 
 
 Yes, there are three classes of diet. 
 
 2554. Do you employ those three classes of diet, or do you merge one of 
 them, just as you have merged one of the clauses as to hard labour ? 
 
 They are employed precisely as is directed there. There is a diet for a man 
 coming in for 42 days and under, there is a diet for over three months, and 
 there is a diet for 56 days ; all of which, according to circumstances, are daily 
 in use. 
 
 255,5. Up to ,56 days no meat is allowed to the prisoners, is there ? 
 The class to which the noble Earl refers is for light labour. 
 
 2556. Is meat employed throughout r 
 
 Meat is employed throughout ; if a prisoner is in for 42 days and under, he only 
 gets two meat dinners a week. That is a recent regidation, formerly it was three ; 
 but I thought that was a great deal too much, and I brought the matter before 
 the Board of Visitors, and they recommended a reduction to the Admiralty. 
 However long a prisoner might be in before that period, if he was not employed 
 at hard labour he was nUowed no meat whatever, so that the extra meat dinner 
 which was taken away from the short sentences was recommended to be given 
 to those at light labour and long sentences after three months. 
 
 2557. By whom is the hard labour and the light labour awarded respectively? 
 That is awarded by the captains of the ships from which we receive the 
 
 prisoners. 
 
 2558. Does it vary with the nature of the offence ? 
 
 It entirely rests with the captain of the ship. Some captains, for desertion, 
 will send a man for three months with hard labour, and other captains for as 
 little as 28 days without hard labour. 
 
 2559. How far does this diet vary from the diet now in use in the military 
 prisons ? 
 
 I think it is a higher class of diet than in the military prisons. I believe 
 that the Medical Director General of the Navy was of opinion that the seamen 
 required a higher class of diet in prison than soldiers generally, because they 
 are fed so well on board. 
 
 2560. Earl of Dudley.'] It is all salt meat in the Navy, is it not ? 
 
 Yes, but it is of good quality ; and when in harbour they have fresh meat. 
 
 2561. Chairman.'] Could you make out a return showing the difference of 
 diet in the naval and in military prisons, placing the two side by side in 
 parallel columns ? 
 
 Yes, I will endeavour to do so. 
 
 2562. Duke of Marlborough.] Have you power to put the prisoners in 
 irons ? 
 
 Yes, I have power to do so ; but I must report it immediately to the visitor. 
 
 (37. 7.) G G 2563. How
 
 Jt.N. 
 
 a6th March 1863. 
 
 234 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Captain 25C3. IIow long do vou keep them in irons ? 
 
 C. M. Liickraft, \ am not allowed to keep them in irons more than 24 hours at a time ; but 
 it is on only one occasion that I have been compelled to put a man in irons, 
 and that was for striking an officer. 
 
 2564. Earl of Dudley.'] That is j'our last resource ? 
 Yes, that is our last resource. 
 
 2565. Duke of Marlborough.'] Are you aware that a marine afloat is far 
 better fed, and has a much greater variety of food, than a soldier on shore ? 
 
 Yes, I believe it is so. 
 
 2.566. Chairman.'] Do you issue extra diets to any of the prisoners ? 
 The first class get an extra two ounces of meat on Sundays. 
 
 2567. Is that in the nature of an indulgence ? 
 Yes, it is by way of an indulgence for good conduct. 
 
 2568. Is extra diet ever issued to those prisoners who are not sick enough 
 to be placed upon the sick list, and yet are supposed to be incapable of doing 
 the same hard labour as their companions do without additional support r 
 
 That rests entirely with the medical officer ; he regulates the diet of all those 
 that are under his charge, and he either orders them hard-labour diet or light 
 labour diet ; and if they are not sufficiently well to perform the hard labour, 
 they very often have their hard-labour diet continued. 
 
 2569. There are probably cases where prisoners are supposed to be not ill 
 enough to go into the infirmary : but where the surgeon desires to give them 
 some additional support in the way of extra diet, is that done ? 
 
 Y^es, it is quite in his power to do anything he pleases. 
 
 2570. Does he practically do that? 
 Yes. 
 
 2.571. Can you state what proportion the number of extra diets bear to the 
 number of ordinary diets ? 
 
 A very small percentage ; I do not suppose that it occurs more than once in 
 a month ; it is not of daily occurrence at all. Prisoners are very healthy indeed 
 in that prison ; not one man has gone into the infirmary yet. 
 
 2572. 'DwVe oi ][Iarlhoroiigh.] Do you find that the jmsoners engaged in 
 shot drill require higher diet than those engaged in such work as you were 
 speakin.g of, namely, first-class productive labour ? 
 
 No ; I think that they do not require higher diet, but I find that they lose 
 flesh more than the first class. 
 
 2573. You do not find that their general health suffers ? 
 No, they are in very good condition. 
 
 2574. I suppose the difference of exertion is very great, is it not, between 
 the shot drill and the labour of the first-class prisoners ? 
 
 Verj^ great. 
 
 2575. As I understand the practical working of your system, it is that the first 
 class, who are engaged in light work, get better fed than the third class, who 
 are engaged in heavy s^hot drill ? 
 
 YcsV but all the men in the first class have undergone their shot drill, and 
 from their good conduct have raised themselves to the first class. 
 
 2576. Looking at it as a question of health, you do not find that the hard 
 labour, conjoined with a low fare, acts prejudicially upon the health ? 
 
 No. 
 
 2577. Earl of Vvcie..] What is your usual percentage of men on the sick list r 
 About two pc r cent, only are daily exempted from duty, and about four per. 
 
 cent, partially exempted irom duty. 
 
 2.578. Marquess of Sallshtcry^ How are they partially exempted from 
 duty ? 
 
 A man is exempted from the hard labour, but not from the fight labour. 
 
 2579. Earl
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 235 
 
 aiiTu. Earl of Diicie.A 'I'he system carried on in your prison is a healthy one. Captain 
 
 is it not? ^ C.M.L^kraft, 
 
 Very healthy indeed. ' 
 
 2580. There is nothing in the severity of the work or in the meagreness of 26th March 1863. 
 the diet which hurts the prisoners ? 
 
 No ; on the contrary, they go out in capital condition. 
 
 25S1. Lord JVodehouse.] Do the prisoners in the first class work in separate 
 cells, or are they associated r 
 They are associated. 
 
 2582. Do you find that any evil results arise from the association of men of 
 very different characters ? 
 
 1 have found none whatever. 
 
 2583. Earl of Dudley^ Have they the power of conversing ? 
 
 I give them that permission ; when they are at meals they may converse in 
 a low orderly tone, and also when they are associated in the evening, just 
 before going to bed, but not afterwards ; there is always a warder in attend- 
 ance. 
 
 2584. The change from the third class to the first class is entirely at your 
 own option, is it not ? 
 
 Yes, except that I have the sanction of the visitor ; the visitor may look 
 into these things. 
 
 2.585. It is not necessary that it should go before the visitor before it is 
 done ? 
 
 No. 
 
 2586. Therefore, you can abrogate the hard labour of some as soon as you 
 choose ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2587. Lord Steward.'] The prisoners in your prison are of a very dif- 
 ferent class, are they not, from the ordinary criminals and convicts in a county 
 prii-on r 
 
 Very diff rent. 
 
 2588. Therefore, the same separation is not necessary in your case as it is 
 in the case of convict prisons ? 
 
 Certainly not. 
 
 2.589. Earl of Dudley.] \ou mean by that that they are not habitual cri- 
 minals ? 
 
 They are not habitual criminals ; I have none in my prison who have been 
 committed for any offences against society. 
 
 2-,Q0. Duke of Marllmrouyh.'] What are the offences for which they are 
 generally committed ? 
 
 Desertion, absence without leave, and breaking leave are the principal offences; 
 and there are some in for insubordination, and striking their superior officers. 
 
 2.501. Earl Cathcart.'\ Is the shot drill always in the open air? 
 Not when it rains ; they are under cover then. 
 
 2592. Are they in sheds ? 
 Yes, they are covered over. 
 
 2,593. Are they open at the side ? 
 
 Yes, there are windows ; the shed was not built for that purpose, but I have 
 appropriated a shed for that object. 
 
 2594. Karl of Diidki/.] It is rare, is it not, for yoii to have a man a second 
 timer 
 
 Out of COO I have had about 10 recommitments only. 
 
 2.595- Earl of Durie.] But you have only had a year's experience, have 
 you ? 
 
 Yes ; but there are many stationary ships in England from all the different 
 (37. 7.) ' G G 2 guardships
 
 236 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BE^,FORE THE 
 
 26th March 1863. 
 
 Captain guardships, from which I get the greatest number of men ; and I have only 
 
 C. M. Luckrqfi. iiad 10 re-commitments in one year. 
 R. s. 
 
 2.596. Earl of Romney.'] Are they sent to you from all parts: 
 
 Yes, from all parts of England, and from abroad as well. 
 
 2597. Are they sent to you from Pembroke and Sheerness ? 
 Yes, from Pembroke, Chatham, Sheerness, Woolwich, and so on. 
 
 2.598. Marquess of Salisburr/.~\ Have you the power given you by the regula- 
 tions of recommending a prisoner for the remission of a portion of his sentence, 
 and have you ever done so ? 
 
 Yes ; I have done so on three different occasions, and it has been acceded to. 
 
 'J599. Have you found that that has proved a beneficial power ? 
 Yes, I think it is a very beneficial power, and it stimulates the men very 
 much. 
 
 2600. To whom does the application for that remission go ? 
 To the Admiralty. 
 
 2601 . Do they send down the permission without any inquiry ? 
 It has never been refused yet, on the recommendation of the visitors. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday, April 16th, 
 
 One o'clock.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 237 
 
 Die Jovis, 16' Apnlis 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT: 
 
 Lord President. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Malmesbury. 
 Eail ofRoM.NEY. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 
 Earl Cathcaut. 
 Viscount Eversley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY, in the Chair. 
 
 Evidence on 
 Prison Discipline. 
 
 WILLIAM MERRY, Esquire, is called in, and examined as follows : w. Merry, Esq. 
 
 2602. YOU are Chairman of the Visiting Justices of the county gaol of Berk i^t h April 186 3. 
 shire, at Reading, are you not r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2603. Is that a gaol and a house of correction also ? 
 Yes. 
 
 2604. Whiit is the average number of the prisoners in the gaol ? 
 About 130. 
 
 2605. What species of labour have you in that gaol 'i 
 
 I think it has been a good deal disputed whether we have any labour at all ; 
 but, in point of fact, we have labour or employment for every man, as prescribed 
 by the 2d & 3(1 Vict. c. 5G, s. A. The words of that section are, " Labour or 
 employment." It had been made a matter of complaint against us, under the 
 imagination that we had no hard labour in Reading Gaol, as prescribe -i by the 
 Act. 
 
 2606. You are allowed by that section, are you not, to make such rules for 
 the separate confinement of the prisoners, and for their employment, as maybe 
 dictated by the Secretary of State .'' 
 
 Yes ; that has been going on, ever since the year 1844, under my personal 
 cognizance. 
 
 2607. And what employment or labour have you in Reading Gaol ? 
 
 I think that the nearest approach to labour may be called grinding our own 
 wheat. We use single-handed mills in preference to the joint mill, which a 
 number of men work at, and of course a large number of them are shufflers. We 
 employ single-handed mills, and the men grind their own corn so much a day, 
 which is converted into Ijread afterwards by a baker, who is also on the establish- 
 ment ; and it may be worth the while of noble Lords, who are interested in their 
 own counties to know, that 1 think we save very nearly, upon an average, 100 /. 
 a year, besides getting valuable labour, not penal labour. Our mills are single- 
 handed ; every one does his own work, and there can be no shuffling. 
 
 aGo8. Do they do it in their own cells ? 
 
 No ; we have built separate cells, well lighted, and with a free current of air, so 
 that a man may have the advantage of a change of cell and more free air than he 
 gets in his ordinary cell. 
 
 (37. 8.) G G 3 2609. Does
 
 238 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. Merry, Esq. 2609. Does eveiy man work at those mills? 
 
 16th A~wi 186 '^^^^y ^^^^ *^^'^'^" t^^''"^ '■> "ot as a labour for so many hours, but just so h^ng as 
 
 " ^" ^' we imagine that it may cl) thom good. What we call our punishment is a man's 
 
 being shut up doing nothing; that is the real sting; every hour that they are 
 
 taken out of their cell is a relaxation or relief. 
 
 2610. How many mills have vou? 
 Seven or eight, I think. 
 
 2611. And is that sufficient to employ the average number of prisoners ? 
 With the addition of the pumping, it is ; we have a force-pump, which is made 
 
 to carry the water up to the highest part of the building. 
 
 2ti]2. How many hours per day are you obliged to grind the mills in order to 
 furnish a sufficient quantity of flour r 
 
 It is a long time, but the same man does not grind the whole quantity ; they 
 take it by turns ; tliey are employed at the mill for the sake of exercise, to keeji 
 them in their muscular condition, and in good health, and for no other purpose. 
 When one man has been working suliiciently long at the mill, we put another man 
 in his place. 
 
 2613. Are you able to grind tlie whole of the corn which you require ? 
 Yes, entirely. 
 
 261,^. Assnming your average of 130 [irisoners, how many Ixiurs a dav of 
 labour are necessary to grind the requisite quantity of corn ? 
 
 I do not recollect just at this jnomenl, but it is very slow work. It would not 
 be profitable in our private establishments to set up a handmill. 
 
 2615. J.ord President^ Could you give the Committee any approximation as 
 to the amount of labour ; or could you say what numlx-r of hours any one man is 
 employed in the day at this work r 
 
 Lord Carnarvon had a time-table from the go"\ ernor of our gaol ; and as his 
 Lordship had it, I did not bring my own time-table ; therefore, I cannot answer 
 the question jjrecisely. 
 
 2616. Earl of i?07?;«^?/.] If a man is sentenced to four months' imprisonment 
 in the House of Correction with hard labour, what is done A\ith him ? 
 
 He has, perhaps, rather longer to jmrap, and rather longer to grind. But we 
 value the sentence of hard labour in the old Acts as giving us an advantage in 
 dealing with the man as regards the discipline of the prison itself ; a man sentenced 
 to !iard labour may be treated with more peremptory decision than a man who is not 
 sentenced to hard labour ; that is the only advantage. I hope I shall be Ibrgiven 
 for making use of the expression, but the question of what hard labour really is has 
 never yet been defined. We used to have the treadmill ; we were the first county 
 to have the treadmill, and, I am hajipy to say, we were the first to give it up, 
 finding it a most useless mistake. U'e never knew \\ hat it was to make a man better, 
 and we never knew what it was to punish a man, the simj)le ])r()of being that the same 
 man tame back to the same treadmill a dozen or iwenty times. It was self- 
 evident that the sooner we gave up such a useless mode of ])unisl:ing the men the 
 better. ^\ hen we built our se])arate cells and our new gaol, I happened to l)e a 
 visiting jiistice ; and mc established this great fact, that separation is the basis of 
 all ])ri-on discipline. When the men are all congregated together you can do 
 nothing with them ; but get a man shut up in a separate cell, and I do believe you 
 nuiy do a great deal \uth that man. At the time of visiting the gaol 1 may have 
 been considered jierhaps a little prejudiced, and so I asked a Committee of the 
 whole countv, consisting of our Members of Parliament and the principal magis- 
 tracy, to 1)1' good enough to tell me what i Mas to do with a man shut uj) within 
 four walls ; and after considering the matter for a coujjle of hours, they said, 
 "Mr. Merry, we believe we must leave you to do the best you can." None of us 
 knew a bit about the matter. '1 hen it was that we found that, jiractically, the 
 problem worked itself out. I felt it to be a vote of confidence in nie on the 
 part of my brother nuigistrates. When we shut up a man in his ceil, the 
 first he did was to sav, " For Cod's sake give me somethin"; to do : 1 cannot bear 
 to be here by myself!" We then gave him a hook, and if he said, " 1 am no 
 scholar; I cannot read," we then asked him, " Would yon like to learn to read f 
 and his rei)ly was, " Anything, sir, sooner than be here by myself; I do not care 
 
 how
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 239 
 
 how hard tlie work is ! " Then we said, Tliat is one point estabhslied ; if we can W. Merry, Esq. 
 get sucli a man to read the Bible, of couise it must give him better advice than ^ . ' ~ 
 anything that we could say to him. I recollect a special instance of a man who ^^' ^' 
 
 had read half through his Bible in a fortnight ; whether that man was the better 
 for it afterwards, of course I do not dare to say ; but it is presumable that tlie 
 cause and effect ^(\ together. That was really the history of our separate system, 
 combined with corrective instruction in Reading Gaol. 
 
 2617. 'ihen the Committee are to understand that the first step in carrying out 
 a sentence of hard labour was, to ])ut a man in a separate cell, and give him 
 nothing to do / 
 
 We have always fought very stoutly, and I liope i-espectfully, against what i.s 
 called hard labour. We have ali\ays asked, what is hard labour? I do 
 not believe in it; I believe that it is a mistake. For 16 years the result of our 
 system has been a diminution of crime, which is somewhat remarkable. Knowing 
 that I should appear before your Lordships to-day, I prepared last night an 
 account of the dirference in the number of prosecutions at assizes and sessions, 
 and it was evident from the figures tliat our separate and corrective system was 
 telling upon the county ; the diminution of crime would evidently appear by the 
 smaller number of prosecutions for crime at the assizes and sessions. We 
 abolished our treadwheel when we opened our new gaol. 
 
 2618. You say that you find that hard labour is a mistake; you mean that 
 hard labour does not produce any good result? 
 
 Yes, that is the inference which we draw from the same man coming back a 
 dozen times. 
 
 261 Q. At the time the sentence of the Court was that you should put the man 
 to hard labour? 
 
 Yes, of course it was so. 
 
 2620. Earl of Dudley.'] Then the Committee are to understand that you do 
 not carry out the sentence of the Court? 
 
 Latterly? we have not done so. 
 
 2621. That is to say, you give them no conifmlsory hard labour ? 
 I do not believe that you can compel a man to work. 
 
 2622. You do not, as a matter of fact, carry out the sentence that the law has 
 passed upon the man ? 
 
 1 should answer that question better if I knew what, in your Lordship's view, 
 constitutes hard labour. 
 
 2623. You have been asked, what means you have of carrying out hard-labour 
 sentences in the case o.f those who are sentenced to a term of hard labour, and 
 you answer that by savins that you have no wheel, but that you have certain 
 cranks by which you grind your own corn ? 
 
 I must ask your Lordship to distinguish between cranks that do work, and 
 others which are merely penal work. 
 
 2624. By penal you mean unproductive, do you not r 
 Yes, 
 
 262.5. You have in your gaol a certain number of cranks whicii grind corn ? 
 Yes ; certainly. 
 
 2626. Are they all separate ? 
 Yes ; they are all separate. 
 
 2627. So that every man must do his own portion of work ? 
 Yes. " ^ 
 
 2628. Is that hard laliour? 
 
 Yes ; for the time it is, certainly. 
 
 2620. Do not you find that you very soon grind corn enough for the require- 
 ments or tiie gaol ? 
 
 That is a question upon which I should be afraid of misleading the Committee; 
 1 cannot answer it accurately from memory. 
 
 (S'^-s-) G g4 2630. Is
 
 240 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. Metry, Esq. 2630. Is it iiot very often the case that you are obliged to go on ^vith those 
 
 cranks Avhich really are, in your own language, penal, namely, doing no productive 
 
 i6th Apiii 1863. ^^.Qi-j^ foi- the time being r 
 
 " The cranks in our gaol Mould be employed to grind corn. 
 
 2631 . Therefore, if there is no corn to grind, there is no hard labour even with 
 those cranks / 
 
 A portion of the labour Ayould cease for that day, and the men would be told 
 to pump water for the tank : and they are also em])loyed in mat-making and oakum 
 picking. 
 
 2632. That is industrial occupation ; but keeping ourselves entirely to the 
 question of hard labour, do I rightly understand you to say, that if sufficient corn 
 is ground the men are no longer employed upon those cranks ? 
 
 They are not. 
 
 2633. There being no wheel, and the cranks not being wanted for grinding 
 corn, there is therefore no hard labour being done in the prison at that time ? 
 
 '^rhen we come back to the definition of what is hard labour. I do not know 
 whether your Lordship would consider mat-making hard labour. 
 
 2634. According to my notions it is not. A very distinct line must be drawn 
 betAveen industrial occupation and hard labour, because, to my mind, there is but 
 one class of hard labour, and that is either the Avheel or the crank ? — Perhaps I 
 might take the liberty of saying, that the crank has proved a failure ; and there 
 are two remarkable cases of that, one at Birmingham and the other at 
 Leicester. You may tell a man that he shall work so many turns or have no 
 breakfast, as was the case at Birmingham, so many turns or no dinner, or, so 
 many turns or no supper ; but it was found that, first of all, there is something in 
 the Saxon blood A\liicli every now and then rebels, and you cannot make a man 
 "work ; and then what are you to do? At Birmingham the food was withdrawn, 
 and the men at last became so ill that some of them died. There was a great 
 inquiry into the matter in a court of law, and the result was that the governor 
 "was sentenced to three months' imprisonment. 
 
 2635. Cluiirnum.'\ In the gaol at Reading you have, as one form of hard 
 labour, the pumping of water up to a tank, have you not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2636. Is that done by a wheel ? 
 
 By a long handle, at which 10 men work. 
 
 2637. Is it the common mode of what we call crank labour r 
 Yes. 
 
 2638. How many prisoners can it employ ? 
 Ten at a time. 
 
 2639. How many hours a day do you reckon that they work : 
 I have not a time-table with me, therefore I cannot say. 
 
 2640. Earl of Dudley.] The labour at the crank is not consecutive, is it? 
 !No ; each man takes his turn. 
 
 2641 . For how long ; for 10 minutes ? 
 
 More than that ; they work as long as it is required, but of course that very 
 much (Upends on the number of jirisoners in the gaol. The work has to be done ; 
 if there are a few, of course they must be worked longer ; if there are many, of 
 course they would be worked a shorter time. 
 
 2642. Chmrnuin.'] \\\\\ you have the kindness to send in to the Committee a 
 Return of tiie employment of the prisoners in the Reading Gaol ? 
 
 I will do so. 
 
 2643. Earl of Dudley.'] You have stated that 130 is the average number of 
 prisoners that you have in Reading Gaol. Out of that number, I presume a large 
 majority are sentenced to hard labour .' 
 
 i daresay it is so. 
 
 2644. Can
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 241 
 
 2644. Can you tell the Committee what proportion of those men so lying in JV. Merry, Esq. 
 gaol under sentence of hard labour are occupied in anything approaching to hard ^^^^ ^^^j, ^gg^ 
 labour during the day ? 
 
 I do not think, if I have any idea of what your Lordship means by hard labour, 
 that we have hard labour ; I think tliat we have the same labour that there is in 
 other gaols, but 1 do not know any gaol in which hard labour exists. 
 
 2645. In dealing with this particular case of the Reading Gaol, I will draw a 
 line between any industrial occupation and such employments as you have been 
 speaking of, namely, grinding corn or pumping water. How many of those 130 
 men who are lying there under sentence of hard labour would be so employed 
 during the day ? 
 
 I am afraid I cannot answer that question. 
 
 2640". Lord Wodehoitse.] Do you know what proportion of those 130 prisoners, 
 on the average, would be sentenced to hard labour, and be fit for it ; I mean such 
 hard labour as the tread wheel ; would there be more than half? 
 
 I am answering at random, but I should say that more than half would be fit. 
 
 2647. What do you mean by the expression "corrective instruction".^ 
 
 We rely entirely, first of all, upon the vis inertice, the irksomeness of the cell 
 making a man desirous of learning something which he did not know before ; and 
 by "corrective instruction" perhaps we should say "moral instruction." In the 
 case of a man who comes in as a thief, the first question that we try to get into 
 his head is, why should you steal, and why should you not steal ; we try to get 
 him to think, and to accomplish the great fact of knowing that " honesty is the 
 best policy." 
 
 2648. Lord Steward.'] Do you apply precisely the same rule to prisoners sen- 
 tenced for short sentences as to those imprisoned for long terms? 
 
 ^Vitll this diiference, that in the case of short sentenced prisoners, for instance 
 those sentenced to a month's imprisonment, we do not take pains to teach them 
 reading ; it is impossible that a man can learn to read in a month, but a man may 
 be taught to think in a nionth. 
 
 2649. Lord Wodehouse.'] Do you look at all to deterring the criminal, or do 
 you look merely to reforming him ? 
 
 I have not great faitli, I confess, in deterring criminals. I should like to sub- 
 mit to your Lordships by and by the question of diet, which I believe to be the 
 only shape in which a deterring influence can be brought to bear upon them. I 
 do not believe that men will ever be deterred by anything in the shape of punish- 
 ment ; that is my experience. 
 
 2650. Lord Presidefit.] Did you not state that solitary confinement in a cell 
 was deterring ? 
 
 I believe it is the most terrible punishment to a man, but every hour that he is 
 taken out of that cell is a relief; a man would jump mast high to get upon the 
 treadwheel rather than be confined in a solitary cell. 
 
 26,51. Are you aware whether a large number of vagrants pass through your 
 prison in the course of the winter? 
 
 I think there has been an increase of them this year, but when we first opened 
 our new gaol at Reading, under the separate system, a deputation of magistrates 
 of Buckinghamshire, our adjoinino- county, came over to see what we were doing, 
 and tliey said frani<ly that tliey were obliged to build a new gaol in Buckingham- 
 shire, for that all the scamps were going there because they did not like our system 
 at Reading. I do not believe that there is anything which vagrants or tramps, 
 who I consider are the very worst class of all criminals (they are living lies), dread 
 more than the separate cell. 
 
 2b.-,2. Lord Wodehouse.l ^^ that consistent Avith what you just now stated, 
 that you do not look to tlio deterring efl^cct upon the criminal ? 
 
 I have no great faith in it, but I fear I have expressed myself very improperly 
 if I have said that we do not look to the deterring effect, because I am going to 
 ask the Committee to consider the question about diet, from which I hope more 
 than from anything else. 
 
 2653. But if, as you have stated, the effect of establishing those separate cells 
 (37. 8.) II H at
 
 242 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEIOHE THE 
 
 Ji . Merry, Esq. ^{ Reaflin,2^ is such as to induce vagrants who would otheruise probably have come 
 
 iGth ^m^iseq "^**^ Htadino- prison, to go rather to Buckinghamshire, where they would be in a 
 
 " prison in which there is no separate system, does not that statement go to prove 
 
 that the separate system has a direct deterring effect, and a very serious deterring 
 
 effect ? 
 
 I have always hojjed that it has, but 1 am afraid to boast too much of it. 
 
 2t)5^. Loi'd President.'] In your system, you consider that the great power is 
 the separate confinement r 
 Yes. 
 
 26.55. And to those who complain of it, you are in the habit of giving some 
 means of occupation ; for instance, in some cases you propose to them to read the 
 Bible ? 
 
 Yes ; we give them instruction, generally. 
 
 2ri.-,6. And some avail themselves of it to the extent, that one man whom you 
 have mentioned, read nearly half the Bible througli in a fortnight : 
 Yes ; that was after the opening of our new gaol. 
 
 2('i.',7. With those who say they cannot read, and to whom, therefore, that 
 occupation is of no avail, what do you do ? 
 
 My question to them is, "Would you like to learn?" the answer is, "Any- 
 thing, sir, sooner than be here by myself doing nothing" and then the schoolmaster 
 is brought into action. 
 
 2658. Then, all those who do not know how to read, learn to read in your 
 gaol r 
 
 Yes; in two or three months they learn to read, or, at any rate, they learn to 
 think, which, I consider, is a very important point. 
 
 2659. Lord Steicnrd.'] Hou* do you set about that process ? 
 There are the chaplain and two schoolmasters to attend to that. 
 
 2660. Lord JVodehousc-] Is not the result of your system this, that in the first 
 place, you establish se]>arate cells, which have a deterrent effect upon criminals, 
 and then you ])rocecd to neutralise that deterrent effect, by giving them occupa- 
 tion (which makes the separate system not terrible to them), with the society of 
 two schoolmasters aud the chaplain to beguile the time r 
 
 It was one of the first terrors thrown before us, that by shutting a man uj) in a 
 se])arate cell we should induce insanity. A great experiment had l)een tried by 
 the Americans. In their endeavour to do away Mith secondary punishments, they 
 shut up 80 of their worst criminals in })rison in Wall-street, New York. The 
 cells, were, in point of fact, living graves, seven feet long, just high enough to 
 stand in, and just wide enough to lie down in, and the men were without instruc- 
 tion, and without any communication. In ten months, that system was given 
 up ; five men died, and two or three went mad. But the importance of tiic expe- 
 riment to us is this (and it is really worth submitting to your Lordships), that so 
 far from even the terror of such a terrible exjterimcnt as that affecting those men, 
 out of those 80 original prisoners who were discharged, 14 were re committed 
 very soon after ; it had not deteri-ed them, and you will not deter by terror. 
 
 2661. Earl of Z)i<r/%.] Will you define for the Committee what you mean by 
 the separate system ? 
 
 Shutting up a man in a sei)arate cell, to begin m ith ; yon cannot force men 
 to read, or to do anything- ; but, such is tlie irksomeness of the cells that they 
 insensibly do it of their own accord. I had a remarkable case of a Jew who was 
 committed for a year, and all we did in that case was to put a Hebrew Bible in 
 his cell, in order that he ndght read it. He could not help himself; he did read 
 it, and, after a while, he asked nu; whether he was at liberty to read our New 
 Testament. I said, " By all means ; it is open to every one here." lie read it, 
 aiul it broke him down ; he had never seen his own Bible ; he had only read in 
 the synagogue what they call the Talnuul ; and whcm he came to read the Old 
 Tesiament, aud compared the ja-ophecies in the Old Testament with their fulfil- 
 ment in the New, he became a Christian, and wa-< baptised ; and he begged 
 to be allowed to receive the Sacrament. 1 asked him what he siiould do when he 
 left the prison. I found he was a mineral tooth-maker in London, and he said 
 that he was not afraid at all, but that if he went to the synagogue he shoidd be 
 
 almost
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCI PLIXE. 243 
 
 almost murdered; tli.at was the result, of the separate cell. All the argument and W. Mimj, Esq. 
 all the persuasion upon e;irth would have had no weight with that man ; but the „ . ~ ' 
 irksomeness of his cell compelled him to do souiething. If we had put him upon 
 the treadwheel, he would have been a Jew now. 
 
 26t)2. Separate from what? 
 
 Man from man ; thej never see each other to know each other, or to speak to 
 each other. 
 
 266 3. By the separate system you only mean separation of prisoner from prisoner? 
 Just so. 
 
 2664. Not the secluded system in which a man is shut up entirely ? 
 No ; quite the contrary. 
 
 2665. I ask that question in order that your answer may be recorded here, for 
 this simple reason, that a great many people have an idea that the separate system 
 is simply a secluding of the prisoners entirely ; whereas, the separate systein is 
 only, as you have stated in your answer, the separation of prisoner Irom 
 prisoner? 
 
 Yes, from evil communications. 
 
 2666. As for anything like separation during the day it does not exist, inas- 
 much as, what with the gaoler and what with the surgeon, and what with the 
 people who come there, the warders, and so forth, a man is never so Ion"- 
 separated from his kind as a studious man ordinarily is ? 
 
 Just so ; the solitary system does not exist in England. 
 
 2667. Lord Wodp.house.'] When a person is sentenced to, say a fortnight's 
 imprisonment, what means have you of punishing that man ? 
 
 If I bad my own way I should shut him up in his cell, and let him do nothing 
 in the shape of work or exercise every day. That is punishment enough ; nobody 
 knows what the punishment of a separate cell is who has not experienced it. 
 
 2668. Do you think that for very short terms, where no danger would result to 
 a man's mind, the most deterring punishment would l)e simply to shut him up in 
 a separate cell without employment ? 
 
 Yes, undiluted by any employment or even instruction. That would be a 
 terrible thing, but he would not go mad if it were merely for a very short term, 
 as the question implies. 
 
 2669. Chainnau.~\ You stated that your hard labour consists of grinding corn 
 and pumping. What other employments have you in Reading Gaol .- 
 
 Mat making, picking oakum, gardening, cleaning and washing; I make the 
 men wash their own clothes. Some years ago I was struck by the fact of the 
 women being all em])loyed in washing for the other prisoners, and having no time 
 for instruction or iniprejvement in any way, so I established a plan by which all 
 the men take their turn in washing, but they all go into separate compartments ; 
 they never see each other or speak to each other, but they wash their own clothes 
 and whatever there is to be washed. 
 
 2670. Lord President.'] Do you separate them in chapel ? 
 
 Yes, always ; whatever they do in chapel they are always separate. 
 
 267 K Earl of Rom ney.'] Does that mean that they are in separate compart- 
 ments ? 
 
 Yes, in separate compartments or Httle stalls. 
 
 2672. Chairman.] Are they separate in school ? 
 Yes, the chapel forms the school. 
 
 2673. Do you work the prisoners in classes in the school ? 
 Yes, in four classes. 
 
 2674. How do you preserve the separation with the different classes ? 
 
 The chapel is a semi-circle, and the whole space is divided by stalls just big 
 enough for a man to sit in, and he can see nothing but the schoolmaster over the 
 top of his stall. 
 
 (S'- 8.) H H 2 2675. Lord
 
 244 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. Merry, Esq. 2675. Lord Wodthouse.'] Do you find that they attempt to communicate with 
 
 — ~ each other by sin-ns ? 
 
 iCth April 1863, Occasionally, but no communication can pass of any consequence. 
 
 2676. You have not found anv inconvenience arising from that circumstance? 
 No. 
 
 2677. Chairman.'] Uo you require from them a certain quantity of work ^ 
 
 No. 
 
 267S. Do they work as long as they jjlcasc? 
 They work as long as they are told to work. 
 
 2679. ^"'^ if they refuse to work, what then r 
 
 They never have refused ; we never have the punishinent-cranks, as they are 
 called, or the shot drill, or anything of tliat kind Avhich a man might refuse to do. 
 
 2680. Are the Connuittee to understand that you never liave to punish them 
 for not working ? 
 
 Not for not working. They may commit faults of various kinds ; and then I 
 find that the punishment of all punishments is to reduce the diet ; to take a man's 
 dinner away, for instance. 
 
 2681. Have you any dnrk colls? 
 
 AVe have dark cells ; but I think we have not used them for nine years. 
 
 2682. Have you ever had recourse to corporal punishment? 
 
 I do not think that I have flogged on the average more than one man a year 
 during 25 years ; but I should be very sorry indeed that the iiunishinent of flog- 
 ging should be taken away, for I am sure that although it should be tiie last 
 resource, yet as the Inst resource, it is a valuable punishment, for I never applied 
 it but with immediate success, though not to an amount of more than two dozen 
 stripes. 
 
 2683. Earl of Dudley.] Have you ever been called upon to flog a man twice ? 
 Never ; or else I should have felt that the punishment had not succeeded. 
 
 2684. Earl of Romney.] With regard to the amount of hard labour which is 
 prescribed, I gather from what you said before that you are guided rather by 
 what is of advantage to a man's health than by any consideration of enforcing 
 hard labour ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2685. The whole object being to give him enough exercise to keep up his 
 health? 
 
 Yes; we want to kee|) up his muscular power. 
 
 2686. That is the whole object ? 
 Yes ; I must admit it to be so. 
 
 2687. C]tuirmmiP\ You stated that the prisoners are employed in mat making? 
 Mat making, oakum picking, gardening, and washing, cleaning, and scrubbing; 
 
 in i'act, all the necessary cleaning belonging to the prison. 
 
 2(188. Lord Wodchousc] Do you employ them in weaving or carpet making? 
 They make carpets of cocoa-nut fibre, but they are not employed in weaving; 
 we have only mat rooms. 
 
 20 8g. Viscount Everslei/.] You state that you employ them in cleaning the 
 prison ? 
 
 Yes, in scrubbing and in washing; they have to do whatever they are told to 
 do. If a prisoner is a painter, or a carpenter, he is employed in doing whatever 
 is necessary in that way. 
 
 2690. Lord Steward.] Should you not be afraid that b}- fiequcntly depriving 
 the prisoners of food, you might lower their condition ? 
 
 I believe that tlie best thing on earth tiiat we can do, is to reduce the whole 
 system of diet from first to last. I recollect when we had for nine years 40 
 Government convicts to discipline previous to transportation ; of course, we liad 
 some rou'di characters to deal with, and one <lay I was obliged to say to one man 
 who was a very rough character indeed, " Your stomach is getting above your 
 
 head,
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 245 
 
 head, you must have bread and Mater for a fortnight." At the end of the first /f. Mcmi, Esq. 
 
 week he was down on his knees, begging to be put upon his diet again, and I did 
 
 so ; but the reduction of diet tells instantly. I was very glad not to insist on the ^^''' ''^P"' ^'^^3- 
 fortnight, because a week was sufficient; but it shows even with a ruffian of that 
 kind how immediately the animal fails him when his food is reduced. 
 
 2691, ChairmmO With regard to self instruction, how long would you devote 
 a prisoner 10 self instruction during the day ? 
 
 I am afraid not so long as 1 should like ; the whole of the labour of the gaol 
 must be done, and while tliat is doing the man is out of his cell, and is not avail- 
 ing himself of the instruction that 1 should like him to receive. In short term 
 committals, of course we can hope but very little frcm that. 
 
 2^92. What do you understand by self instruction? 
 
 At one time our chaplain ;.doplcd a very useful sys(em of making the prisoners 
 learn by heart. It was the idea that a prisoner shut up in a separate cell would 
 go mad, but I said, "No; ]iour a stream of Avliolesome thought through that 
 man's mind, and he Avill not go mad.'' It ^vas supposed that the best way of doing 
 that was, to get them to learn something by heart, and they learned half a dozen 
 or a dozen sentences a day. It was a little occu])ation for those who could not 
 be visited immediately by the chaplain or the schoolmaster; and such was the 
 effect, that in more than one instance I recollect a Government convict learning 
 the whole of the New Testament by heart. 
 
 2693. Earl of Dudley.'] That was a long sentence, was it not ? 
 
 It was only a year. Such is the severity of the separate cell, that whenever 
 we have our assizes, I feel it my duty, as an old visiting justice, to represent to 
 the judges that a year's imprisonment is quite as much as is advisable with regard 
 to any particular individual, and that if they want to punish him more than tliat, 
 they must come to penal servitude, and they invariably thanked me for the infor- 
 mation, because gaols vary so much in their mode of discipline, that no judge 
 knows what he is committing a man to do. 
 
 2694. Are there any such sentences as for three years ? 
 Yes, we have had some in our saol. 
 
 269,5. I thought that the law allowed of nothing over two years' imprisonment 
 in a county gaol ? 
 
 J am very glad of it, if it is so. 
 
 26q6. I thought we came to penal servitude after that ; I know of no crime 
 that is punished with more than two years' imprisonment ? 
 
 Perhaps my mind is going back to the former time. One year, I think; is quite 
 sufficient. The first year is the severest part, I believe, of any penal servitude 
 sentence. 
 
 2697. You are an advocate, are you not, for shorter and sharper sentences ? 
 Not for shorter sentences, I think. 
 
 2698. Eighteen months is what is generally given as the maximum ; but you 
 are for reducing it to a year, and making it really a sharper punishment ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2699. Rather than being obliged by a number of circumstances to relax the 
 discipline of the gaol, and keep a man for 18 months, you w'ould prefer to keep 
 up the discipline for one year ? 
 
 Most undoubtedly. 
 
 2700. It is admitted, is it not, that you must relax the discipline according to 
 the length of the sentence ; you could not keep up the same rigour during 18 
 months, as you do during three months ? 
 
 Not as a system ; we have done so, and our i)risoners' healths have not been 
 affected ; but as a system, I should not dare to propose it. I am satisfied that 
 a year is a jninishment so severe, that if you cannot deal ^itli a man under the 
 separate system in that year, you had better try something else, such as penal 
 servitude. The same medicine, of course, does not agree with all constitutions ; 
 but it is a very severe punishment. 
 
 (37. 8.) II H 3 2701. Lord
 
 246 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 iV. Merry, Esq, 2701. Lord WodehoKse.'] Are not the terms of imprisonment in the county 
 
 raols very much shorter than they used to be ? 
 
 iCth April 1863. ^ Yes. 
 
 270.:. Do yon think that your svstem, us a system, produces a beneficial effect 
 upon prisoners s^ontenced for less than three montiis r 
 
 Yes, better than anytiiing that 1 have ever known before ; better than anything 
 in the shape of hard labour that I have heard of in other gaols. 
 
 2703. Earl of Z)«f//('y.] You have in the Reading gaol, as a matter of course, 
 certain dietaries tiiat have been approved of by the Home Secretary, have you 
 not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2704. Hard labour being presumed to be carried out when the sentence of the 
 law to that effect is passed, there is a higher dietary, is there not, for those who 
 are condemned to hard labour, than for those who are not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 270.1. You do not, according to the habit of your gaol, make a man carry out 
 the sentence of hard labour ; but you give him the benefit of the higher dietary, 
 which supposes hard labour ? 
 
 No, we do not. {Vide note, p. 255.) 
 
 2706. Is this table of diet that I have in my hand sanctioned by the Secretary 
 of State ? 
 
 This was sanctioned by the Secretary of State many years ago, contrary to all 
 our earnest remonstrances, and I do hope that under the present regime we shall 
 be heard, if we make one more effort to have it reduci d ; it is really monstrous. 
 
 2707. Earl of Romnei/.] Is not that the diet wh ich was prepared by the jus- 
 tices, and sent up to the Secretary of State ? 
 
 No, just the reverse. 
 
 2708. C//ain)ia>J.] When was that diet table fixed ? 
 
 I tliink it was in Sir James Graham's time ; it was some 15 years ago, perhaps ; 
 that is our existing dietary. 
 
 2709. Earl oi Homney.] 1 presume tlaat that dietary is fixed according to the 
 lengtli of time that a man is in j^rison t 
 
 Yes, five different tables. 
 
 2710. Then this table is the law, in fict, within Reading gaol? 
 
 I am not sure about the law, for 1 understand that in other counties the sub- 
 mission to the Secretary of State's dietary is not perfect. 
 
 2711. Is it not the fact that the Secretary of State could not prescribe the 
 dietary, l)ut that it was consented to by the visiting justices, and was afterwards 
 a])])roved by him as the dietary of Reading gaol ? 
 
 It is the dietary of Reading gaol, but it was not approved of by the magistracy 
 of the county. 
 
 2712. But it is the dietary prescribed by law for the Reading gaol? 
 By the Home Office. 
 
 2713. We may suppose that when they prescribed dietary, they proceeded 
 accordino- to the law ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2714. Lord President.'] Is not this the case, that l)y law the justices are 
 obliged to prepare rules, and those rules arc certified by the Secretary of State, if 
 he ap])royes of them r 
 
 Whether the initiation is with the Secretary of State or the quarter sessions I 
 am not sure. 
 
 271.5. Are you aware what in the time of Sir James Graham was the diet pro- 
 posed by the visiting justices to him ? 
 
 There was a long correspondence with the Hotuc Office ; but the end of it 
 was, that we could not prevail upon Sir James Graham to give way; and so we 
 bowed to him. 
 
 2716. Did
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIl'LINE. 247 
 
 2716. Did he put aside the dietary that you proposed ? 
 
 Sir James Graham, or the Secretary of State of the day, was the author of our • ^ ^^i"''y i ^'«J- 
 existing- diet, which we complain grievously against ; we think it is a great deal 16th Apnl 1863. 
 too high. 
 
 2717. Earl of Romnei/.] I find that liere in Class 3 there is a certain scale of 
 dietary ordered for prisoners employed at hard labour for terms exceeding 21 days, 
 but not exceeding six weeks. Class 4 is for prisoners employed at hard labour 
 for terms exceeding six weeks, but not more than four months. Different scales 
 are prescril)ed for those classes ; but, practically, in Reading gaol you give the 
 same diet to each of those classLss ? 
 
 No ; we do not consider a rnan sentenced to hard labour who has not anything 
 in the shape of hard labour to do ; he does not deserve a diet intended to keep up 
 a man in i'ull vigour at hard work, and he does not get it. (Vide note*, p. 255.) 
 
 2718. At tlie same assizes or the same sessions one man is sentenced to an 
 imprisonment not exceeding six weeks, and another man is sentenced to four 
 montlis' imprisonment ; therefore, by this dietary, one man ought to have more 
 food than the other ; but in the case of tlic man sentenced to four months' impri- 
 sonment, you chose not to pul him to what the law calls hard labour, and, there- 
 fore, you dispense with the dietary |)rescribed for that class? 
 
 The different classes have different dietaries. Your Lordship will find in the 
 margin of that paper Avhat the solid amount of food of each class is. In Class 1 
 the amount of solid food during the week is 140 ounces; in Class 2, it is 204 
 ounces ; 254 solid ounces is the allowance in Class 3, and 264 in Class 4 ; but 
 then comes the class which we protest so strongly against. 
 
 2719. One man being sentenced to six weeks' hard labour, and, therefore, 
 being entitled to 254 ounces in Class 3, and another man in Class 4 being entitled 
 to 264 ounces, if you do not choose to put the latter man to hard labour, is it the 
 fact that you feel yourself justified in reducing the number of ounces ? 
 
 Yes, certainly. 
 
 2720. Earl of Dudley.'] And you do it, do you not? 
 Yes. {Vide note, p. 255.) 
 
 2721. Chairman.'} That is to say, you assume a dispensing power over that 
 diet .' 
 
 We have assumed that power. 
 
 2722. Lni-d President.] In general, is it your principle to do what you think 
 best at Reading gaol, or to abide by the law? 
 
 I venture to think that we are very obedient to the law, except upon that one 
 point, on which there exists such a diflerence of opinioii, namely, as to the defi- 
 nition of hard labour. I do not pretend to say that any man in Reading gaol 
 undergoes hard labour, but I believe that we have the same labour that there 
 is in other gaols where there arc no cranks. 
 
 2723. Lord Steivard.~\ You stated that you think the existing scale of dietary 
 too high. Are the medical officers of your prison of the same opinion ? 
 
 I hope it is not treason to say that I have not profound faith in medical opinions. 
 We have a surgeon, but that question has never come to a discussion. When we 
 were remonstrating with a former Secretary of State upon the subject of the 
 dietary I suppose we must have had some medical opinions, but when one knows 
 what the army and navy have, and v\ hat the union workhouses in the county have, 
 it does not want a medical man to tell us what a prisoner requires in gaol. 
 
 2724. Earl of Dudlcij.] Practically, do you not find that your surgeon is omni- 
 potei>t in tlie gaol ? 
 
 No; if a surgeon of a gaol tells the visiting justices that he will have this and 
 he will iiave that, or his patient will suffer, we must bow, of course. 
 
 2725. If he happens to be one of those who wisli very much to reduce the 
 labour of the prisoners, and to add to their diet, he has the power of doing it if he 
 chooses, has he not ? 
 
 Yes ; but I should appeal to the Secretary of State in such a case. I should 
 not take liis dictum. 
 
 (37.8.) H H 4 2726. Earl
 
 248 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. Merry, Esq. 27 26. Earl of Ronmei/.'] What could the Secretary of State do when you 
 
 ~ — ap]U'aled to him ? 
 
 iC.i l. April 186 3. J ^^^.^ g,^y jjg ^^^y,^ jjp^^ ,^^j^j^ gj^^^^g 
 
 2727. What can he do when he has heard them ? 
 
 I should ask leave to produce medical autliority against medical authority ; 
 doctors differ, and I know that I should succeed. 
 
 2728. Lord Woclehouse.] Could not the visitino- magistrates represent to the 
 court of quarter sessions ihe propriety of dismissing a surgeon ? 
 
 Yes. Perhaps I might mention that we only lately had an instance in which a 
 surgeon insisted upon giving the patients port wine. I am an old vice-president 
 of the Royal Berkshire Hosiiital, and I know that, for the last tliree or four years 
 we have found what is called African poit allowed by the London authorities, and 
 it is allowed by our medical statf at the Berkshire Hospital. Therefore it appeared 
 to me to be a monstrous thing that our felons siiould be better treated than our 
 poor patients in our county hospital ; and I remonstrated, and I s lid that those 
 men should not have ])ort wine at 4 s. a bottle when the same effect can be pro- 
 duced, and is produced, and has been produced for the last four years in our 
 county hospital by African port at one-fourth the price. We found that 12 
 hospitals in London were using it, and we brought the matter before the medical 
 staff of our hospital and they approved of it, and it has been a very important 
 saving ; it is given as a medicine, as so many ounces of jdiysic. I may say that 
 the surgeon of our gaol upon that occasion had the goodness to give way, or else 
 I should have brought the matter before the court of quarter sessions. 
 
 2720. Earl oi Diidlei/.^ Have you devoted yourself to the consideration of the 
 dietary ? 
 
 Yes, I have for some years past been very anxious indeed to consider the 
 dietary, and every other matter, in order to make Ueading gaol as perfect as we 
 could. We have been called a model gaol, and of course it bi'hoved us to keep 
 up our character, and especially with reference to the dietary, and therefore that 
 anomaly is something quite extraordinary. In our 12 unions in Berkshire (I am 
 speaking of 20 years ago, but pi'obably it is much about the same now) the average 
 amount of solid food given to our paupers was 254 ounces each in the week. So 
 far as the military diet given to me in 1843 tells me, it was only 200 ounces 
 instead of 254; the naval diet was 276 ounces, and the Reading gaol diet 334 
 ounces. How dare a surgeon of a gaol tell ns that that is necessary ? It 
 must be remembered that it is solid food, because the soup and the gruel are all 
 prepared by given quantities of 3 ounces of meal, 4 ounces of meat, and so many 
 ounces of potatoes ; I have reduced it all to a solid extract, and we have 334 
 ounces allowed for our criminals in Reading gaol. 
 
 2730. Chairman.'] Which class are you speaking of? 
 
 Of No. 5 ; those imprisoned for terms exceeding four months. I should beg 
 to submit that it is very doubtful whether, there beiug five diets, a man com- 
 mitted for four months should not begin with the first ; I should put him through 
 the several grades, 
 
 2731. Lord President.'] Supposing your colleagues agreed with yourself as to 
 an improved dietary, and it was approved of by tiie magistrates, would it not be 
 competent for you to send up to the Secretary of State to certify the new dietary ? 
 
 I sli.dl certainly propose to do so now, having heard that in Yorkshire a very 
 material reduction has been made, and ajiprovod of by the Secretary of State. 
 
 2732. Earl of Ronitiei/.] Have you never L)oked at the Act of Parliament to see 
 what mode could be devisinl, because that has been t\v; case ever since the dietary 
 has been compiled ; that is to say, you have the power to recommend a revision 
 of it to the court of quarter sessions, and to send it up to the Secretary of State 
 for his a])pr<)val ? 
 
 We did all we could in the time of a former Secretary of State, but lately, I 
 confess, we have not done so. 
 
 2733. That was aljout 15 years ago? 
 Yes. 
 
 2734. Lord President.'] Does not the fault rest with the visiting justices them- 
 
 selves,
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON' DISCIPLINE. 249 
 
 selves, if for a good many years past the dietary has been what you consider an ^^- Merry, Esq. 
 imperl'ect one ? „ ~ T 
 
 1 am afraid it does, I being one of the justices. 
 
 2735. Earl of Diidley.~\ Is not it your 0[)inion that, except in cases of sick- 
 ness, beef had much better never enter the gaol ? 
 
 I am almost afraid to give an opinion upon that point ; I am quite sure that 
 a great deal too much comes in, and that a man in prison gets what our labourers 
 out of doors never dream of getting; I do not suppose that our labourers ever get 
 anything but bacon. 
 
 2736. Chairman.'] You do not think it necessary that a prisoner should receive 
 a higher diet in comparison to what he would receive out of doors, in consequence 
 of tlie confinement ? 
 
 Certainly not. 
 
 2737. Are you of opinion that separate confinement has any deiiressing- effect 
 upon his bodily health ? 
 
 I think that it produces no effect upon his healtli which he has not fairly 
 subjected himself to. As a man sows, so he must reap. I have no notion of a 
 man coming into gaol to be cured, or to be built-up, as the doctors call it. If he 
 docs suffer, I should let him sufler. In the c;ise of a man sentenced to a short 
 imprisonment, such as your Lordships perfectly well know are the ordinary 
 sentences of imprisonment at quarter sessions and assizes, and petty sessions 
 namely, three weeks or two months, it is impossible that in that short time a 
 moderate diet, which is no worse than ho would get in a worl:hoiise, can seriously 
 injure him. His life may have been, and probably has been, a life of dissipation, 
 and he comes in with an impaired constitution, if he is an old offender ; but 
 generally speaking, our ordinary labourers can ailbrd to go upon half-rations just 
 as a ship's company does, or as a garrison does. 
 
 2738. For a short sentence, at least, you do not think that separate confine- 
 ment has so depressing an effect as to phice a prisoner in bad health ? 
 
 Not when modified by the mind and the body being reasonably employed ; that 
 makes just the whole difference. If that man were shut up by himself, doino- 
 nothing, I would not ask for a reduction of diet. 
 
 2739. 1^0 you think that his being out in the open air in any emplovment has 
 such an eilect as to prevent the necessity of so much food being given him r 
 
 Our men are employed out of doors in gardening for instance, according as the 
 case may be. 1 do not call that hard labour, but a gardener may do so ; it is 
 just the labour of an ordinary man. 
 
 2740. A noble Lord drew a distinction between hard labour and industrial 
 occupation ; in which would you include gardening, in industrial occupation or 
 hard labour ? 
 
 I do not profess to know what hard labour is. 
 
 2741. hord Li/vcden.] You stated, did you not, just now, that you did not 
 consider that there was anything like hard labour in Reading goal ? 
 
 No, nor in any gaol ; I do not know what it is. 
 
 2742. If there is nothing like hard labour in Reading gaol, is that a com- 
 pliance with the Act of Parliament, which prescribes hard labour for criminals ? 
 
 That term " hard labour," seems to have creiit into the Act of Parliament 
 before we knew what we now know ; I do not think that that word would be used 
 now. 
 
 2743- Do you think that you are complying with the Act of Parliament in 
 having no such thing as hard laljour in your gaol ? 
 
 We are complying with the last Act upon tiie subject, namely, the 2 & 3 Vict., 
 c. 56; there is no such word as "hard labour" in that Act. I was examined 
 upon that point before the Committee, and they were good enough to see the 
 difference. 
 
 2744. Chainnnn.] Was the evidence which you refer to given when you were 
 examined before the Committee of the House of Lords in 184/ ? 
 
 No ; it was when I was examined before the Committee of the House of Com- 
 mons, subsequently. 
 
 (37. 8.) I I 2744* You
 
 250 MINUTES OF VIEDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 IV. Men y Esq. 2744*. You were examined, were you not, before the Committee of tlie House 
 
 ! ' of Lords in 1S47 ? 
 
 16th April 18G3. Yes. 
 
 274.5. Earl of Dudley^} Do you think that the health of a gaol could be 
 maintained without any meat of any sort except in the hosijital. I do not mean 
 of course that meat should not be converted into stock sou]), but 1 mean meat in 
 the form in which it is at present given r 
 
 Medically, I am informed that fat is necessary ; when you give bread and water, 
 for instance, only, you are liable to damage the man's constitutinn ; there must be 
 a little fat to induce digestion, but whether that answers the question with regard 
 to meat I am not sure; I should like very much to try it. 
 
 2746. Chairma}i.'\ Are you aware that in military prisons for a certain length 
 of time, 5G days 1 think, the prisoners have been kept altogether without 
 meat ? 
 
 No ; but I am very glad to hear it ; it is an argument in my favour if it 
 be so. 
 
 2747. Lord Vr^odeho^ise.'] I understood you to say that you thought the dietary 
 ■was excessive for prisoners who were confined for short terms ; do you think, 
 looking at your diet in Reading gaol, that for class 1 or class 2 it would be 
 possible to reduce the diet ? 
 
 No ; it was classes 4 and 5 that I was objecting to. 
 
 2748. With reference to the 1st and 2d classes do you think it would be possible 
 to reduce the dietary with safety r 
 
 That is a question which I should be disposed to answer negatively. I should 
 not presume to find fault with those classes. 
 
 2749. Your answer refers rather to the 3d class, and those classes above 
 class 3 ? 
 
 Y'es ; class 3 is three ounces of cooked meat without bone on two days in the 
 week. 
 
 2750. Earl of jR(?OT«e'_y.] In Reading gaol, is the dietary of the first and second 
 classes adhered to ? 
 
 Yes, always all through, except in the case where there is a special allowance 
 for hard labour ; hard labour is not given, and, therefore, that allowance we do not 
 . make. (Firfe note, p. 255.) 
 
 2751. How is it regulated ? If I understand you aright, the first and second 
 class dietaries you adhere to ? 
 
 Yes; we follow them all, but we disapprove of them. 
 
 27.52. I am asking you not what you think, but what you do; do you really 
 carry out the first and second class dietaries? 
 Yes, we carry out all the live. 
 
 2753. A short time ago you stated that, in the case of a man who is sentenced 
 to hard labour, if you do not choose to put him to that hard labour, you reduce 
 his diet ? 
 
 Yes ; with that exception, we carry out the dietary. 
 
 27.54. In cases where men are sentenced to 21 days, six weeks, or four months, 
 all those are sentenced by the magistrate or judge to hard labour, and you say 
 that, in the first and second classes, you carry out those sentences truly with 
 regard to the dietary ? 
 
 Yes; all the way "through, the same principle would be acted ujion. 
 
 2755. if a man came in under a sentence for 21 days, if you have not that 
 labour tor him which you choose to call hard labour, \ou neither give him the 
 hard labour nor do you give him the dietary r 
 
 ^\'e are governed in the diet by the regulation, where it is so much with hard 
 laltouv or so nnu h without. I do not think that the first and second classes say 
 anything about hard labour. 
 
 2756. Lord Woikhouse.'] In the second class it says, " One pint soup per week, 
 if at hard labour ;" do you diminish the dietary by one pint of soup per week, if 
 they are not at hard labour r 
 
 Whenever
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 251 
 
 Whenever there is .an extra allowance, on the as?um]ition of hard labour; we '*^- Merry , Etg 
 do not give it if tliere is not hard labour. ^5tl, ^p^y ,863. 
 
 •2757. Earl of Ronmcy.'] The alteration which you make is simply taking off that 
 
 which has been put in additional for hard labour ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2758. With that exception, you obey these rules ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2 7--i9. Lord Steward.] Are you prejmred (o specify tlie modific;ition of tlie 
 scale which you would ]iro])ose in the cases which you have adverted to ? 
 
 I should like to submit that no criminal in Reading gaol, or in any other gaol, 
 requires, (u- ought to have more than the same class of men would have in the 
 workhouse in his own county, whatever the habits of food are in that county ; 
 some have oatmeal, although "we have not ; some eac fresh meat, whereas, we eat 
 bacon in our county ; but wiiateverthe class of food sanctioned by authority for a 
 pauper in the worldiouse may be, I do submit, most respectfully, ought to be 
 quite enough for a prisoner in gaol. So closely do that class of prisoners follow 
 the amount of food given, that I recollect a young man being in Reading gaol for 
 the seventh time. I asked him how that was, and he said, " I like your victuals 
 best," which was an honest answer. They know the diet to an ounce, and where- 
 ever the food is best, that is the gaol that they would go to. If a man gets more 
 in the gaol than he does in the workhouse, he prefers the gaol. 
 
 •2760. Lord Stcirard.'] You answer applies, does it not, both to the quantity and 
 to the description of the food given ? 
 
 I have taken the weight as the b-st criterion ; a pint of soup may be indefinite, 
 but if a pint of soup or a pint of gruel is composed of certain ingredients, namely, 
 three ounces of oatmeal, and three oun-^es of meat, that is the weight. 
 
 27^1. Earl of Malmesbury.'] When you state that you wish to assimilate the 
 food to that which a man has in the workhouse, you mean that the food should 
 be of an analogous kind; you do not mean exactly the same food, because in my 
 county a great many people feed upon bacon ; but you are aware that bacon is 
 dearer than other meat, the price being actually more than that of nmtton ? 
 
 I mentioned that in diiierent counties the food of the country people varied, but 
 I would, as a rule, say this, that no person in a gaol should have better food : and 
 I should verv much prefer saying that he should have a lower class of food and 
 lower in quantity, than the same man would get in a workhouse. 
 
 •2762. Lord JVodthoitse.'] You Mould not think that it was necessary to give a 
 prisoner for breakfast "" one pint of cocoa, made of three quarters of an ounce of 
 flaked cocoa, or cocoa nibs, sweetened with three quarters of an ounce of molasses 
 or sugar" r 
 
 I call it wicked : there is no earthly necessitv for it. 
 
 2763. Earl of Dudkij.] Do you think it is necessary, as the inspector recom- 
 mended in one gaol, that to that which has just been read by the Noble Lord you 
 should add a little milk r 
 
 It is monstrous. 
 
 2764. Chairman.] Are you able to give the Committee any information upon 
 the subject of the reformation of criminals who pass through your gaol r 
 
 We have this fair ground of couiparison. I think I mentioned before that if 
 crime is reduced in a county, the efiiect of it will be shown by fewer prosecutions for 
 crime at assizes and at sessions. I was looking last night over a return which we 
 have made for the last four years, and I find that the prosecutions at assizes and 
 sessions are less b} half than they were six years ago. 
 
 276,5. May not that be influenced a great deal by the sunnnary jurisdiction ? 
 I have no doubt that that has had a very important effect, but still not the 
 whole. 
 
 2766. Have you any return of the number of prosecutions at assizes and 
 sessions in the county of Berkshire? 
 
 I think that upon that point probably the best criterion would be tlie decennial 
 
 return, which 1 have jirepared for the quarter sessions every Micliaelmas, of the 
 
 crime of the whole county for the last 10 years. That shows, with reference to 
 
 - Li37. 8.) 112 Berkshire
 
 252 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 JF. Merry, Esq. Berkshire, that although the last two years shows an increase in our number of 
 ?6th Apriri863 P^^oners hi Reading gaol, yet, dividing that 10 years into two quinquennial 
 
 ' ' ))eriods, in the last five years there has been a reduction of crime of nearly 
 
 16 j)er cent. 
 
 2767. Have you that statement here? 
 Yes. 
 
 2768. Will you have the goodness to put it in r 
 Yes — [The witness delivers in the same). 
 
 2769. Are you not aware that tiiat has been the case all over the country? 
 I apprehend it is just the reverse. 
 
 2770. Do you include in that return of yours the convictions under the Summary 
 Jurisdiction Act ? 
 
 1 do; not only at Reading gaol but for the whole of the county, includino- 
 Abingdon gaol. 
 
 2771. That is to say, not only the convictions at assizes and sessions, but also 
 the convictions under the Summary Jurisdiction Act ? 
 
 Yes; the whole county, whether at Reading gaol or at Abingdon gaol. 
 
 2772. Viscount Eversley.'\ Is that the whole number of the convicted pri- 
 soners ? 
 
 The number of prisoners in gaol, convicted or not. 
 
 2773. Chairiiian.'] Can you state the number of re-commitments ? 
 I have a return of the re-commitments. 
 
 2774. Arc those rc-commitments confined to Reading gaol, or do they also 
 include those of Abingdon gaol, or any oilier gaol witiiin the county? 
 
 "ihe re-coramitmeuts include only Reading gaol. 
 
 2775. Have you no account of the re-commitments in Abingdon gaol. 
 JS'o. 
 
 2776. Is that information contained in the table that you have just put in ? 
 No. 
 
 2777. Will you have the goodness to state the number of re-commitments in 
 Reading gaol ? 
 
 I have them for 10 years. In 1853 there were 205 re-commitments; in 1854, 
 223; in 1855, 19G; in 1856, 166; in 1857, 220; in 1858, 181 ; in 1859, 153; 
 in 1860, 148; in 1861, 155; and in 1862, 173. 
 
 2778. According' to that table the number of re-commitments are increasing, 
 are they not? 
 
 Tliej- have increased in the last two years ; the lowest number was 148, 
 in 1860. 
 
 2779. They have now risen to 173 ? 
 Yes; up to last Michaelmas. 
 
 2780. Will you state what was tlie highest number of re-comraitments i^ 
 
 Two hundred and twenty-three in 1854; the low3<t number was 148, in 1860; 
 a copy of this return was forwarded to Lord Carnarvon by the governor of the 
 gaol, at his Lordship's request. 
 
 2781. Earl of Romncij.] The return to which you alluded before takes in 
 Abingdon gaol as well as Reading gaol, does it not? 
 
 ]My return us visiting justice to the quarter sessions includes tiie whole crime 
 of the county, and therefore hicludes Abingdon gaol. 
 
 2782. Is Abingdon gaol conducted upon the same system as Reading gaol ? 
 Ko ; there are very few prisoners there; there are not above half-a-dozen 
 
 county prisoners in Abingdon gaol. 
 
 2783. Lord Sfcu-ard.'] Under those circumstances, might it not be expedient to 
 transfer the Abingdon prisoners to Reading ? 
 
 That is what we, at our end of the county, have been extremely anxious 
 to do. 
 
 2784. Earl
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE, 253 
 
 2784. Earl of Dudley. '\ That has been the one question between you for some IV. Merry, Esq, 
 years, has it not ? 
 
 ' Yes. ^'^'■'' ^^^3. 
 
 2785. Lord Steioard.^ Irrespective of the advantages to the county, would it 
 not be jiroductive of advantage to the prisoners and to the discipline of the gaol ? 
 
 Yes, undoubtedly, and we sliould save 600 /. a year by it. 
 
 2786. But with regard, more particularly, to prison discipline and prison 
 management, might it not be rather difficult to maintain a proper system of disci- 
 pline in a gaol in which so few prisoners were confined? 
 
 Yes; it is a great pity that the prisoners are not all sent to Reading. 
 
 2787. Chairman.'] You have quoted a paper which was sent by the governor of 
 the gaol to Lord Carnarvon, and which I Jiold in my hand. I find from that 
 return the total number of i)risoners admitted to the county gaol and the house 
 of correction at Reading in 1862 to have been 760 ; is that correct ? 
 
 That includes, I think, something which should not be there; I think it 
 includes prisoners sent to prison for re-examination. Such a man is not a convict ; 
 he is not in prison for trial even ; he is not even committed, but he is there for 
 safe custody. 
 
 2788. It is not usual, is it, to commit a person to gaol on remand ? 
 It is constantly done at our petty sessions. 
 
 2789. You have stated, have you not, that the number of vagrants has dimi- 
 nished very much in Reading gaol ? 
 
 They have increased in the last year. 
 
 2790. It is stated in the same return that the highest number was, in 1853, 
 113, and in 1862, 101 ? 
 
 Yes; in 1859 there were 87; in 1860,80; in 1861, OG, and in 1862, 101; 
 that is a progressive increase. 
 
 2791. It would appear that no diminution has taken place later than 1857? 
 Probably that is the case, but in the decennial return I have not made a classi- 
 fication of the prisoners. , 
 
 2792. If this return be correct, there is not a very material reduction in the 
 number ? 
 
 The return, which I hold in my hand, I should prefer as being the more correct ; 
 it is the decennial return of the proportionate exj)ense, showing that by the 
 reduction of crime our county rates are very much diminished. 
 
 2793. Lord Wodehouse.] There has been a return sent to Lord Carnarvon, of 
 the employment of the prisoners ; is that return correct r 
 
 That return I believe is from the governor. l"he governor was with me last 
 night, and he told me that he had sent that return to Lord Carnarvon at his Lord- 
 ship's request ; and whatever he has said I should place perfect reliance in. He 
 is a very valuable old servant ; he has been connected with the gaol 40 years. 
 
 2794. "Will you have the goodness to look at that return — (handing the same to 
 the witness) — and if you think it is correct, will you put it in? 
 
 I consider that it is a correct return — {delivering in the same). There is one 
 point that we object to, namely, that the prisoners have 10 hours in bed. We 
 think eight hours sufficient, and we are going to mend our ways, as I hope it may 
 be considered, in that respect. 
 
 279.5- At what hour are the prisoners locked up at night r 
 At eight and nine o'clock ; but at any rate they have 10 hours bed; they are 
 ordered to unstrap their beds and go to bed, and I think that objectionable. 
 
 2796. At what time are they shut up in their cells? 
 
 They are always shut up except they are on duty, and doing some particular 
 •work. 
 
 2707. Have they light all the time? 
 Yes. 
 
 (37. 8.) 113 2798 At.
 
 254 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN' BEFORE THE 
 
 IV. Mernj, Es.q. 2798. At what time are the lights put out ? 
 
 That varies with the time of the year ; the lights are put out at eight o'clock 
 
 iBtli April 1^:63. Qj. j-,jjjg o'clock, according as the time of the year may be. 
 
 2709. And they get up at what hour in the morning? 
 At six o'clock. 
 
 2800. If they are locked up at eight or nine o'clock at night, do they remain 
 in darkness, without occupation, during: that time r 
 
 Yes, necessarily so, and that is what I object to. I think that our prisoners 
 should not be comjielled to go to bed for any period allowing them more than 
 eight Jiours bed. "\A^e cannot ju-event a man going to sleep in his cell upon his 
 three-legged stool ; but he uouhl not be quite as comfortable as in bed. 
 
 2801. Lord SteiL'ard.'\ You would not allow him to unsling his hammock, and 
 go to bed before the appointed hour ? 
 
 No. 
 
 2802. Chairman.'] When is the lasf, visit made by the governor or the turnkey ? 
 There is a warder on duty the whole 24 hours, taking it by turns like a watch" 
 
 on boarti ship. 
 
 2S03. Do they visit the cells at a particular hour in the night r 
 The warder on duty orders the gas to be put out at the appointed time, when- 
 ever it is, say eight o'clock. 
 
 2804. Does he go into the cell of the prisoner, or d(jes he simply put out the 
 gas ? 
 
 He orders the gas to be put out, and if the prisoner does not understand him 
 of course he would open the door and put it out for him. 
 
 2S05. Does each prisoner put out his own light? 
 
 Yes ; it is in his cell, and he has the power of putting it out, and he could not 
 light it again ; but if he did not know how to do it, the warder would go into the 
 cell and do it for him. 
 
 2806. How is the escape of gas prevented? 
 
 There is only the ordinary stop key that tiiere is in all gas pipes. 
 
 2807. Lord WotkJioiise.] Wh;it sort of bedding do the prisoners have ? 
 They have a hammock, wliich 1 think objectionable. 
 
 2808. Chairman.'] When a prisoner is first confined is he allowed a hammock, 
 or does he sleep U[)on boards? 
 
 We have no boards, except when a man has fit«, and he is obliged to sleep upon 
 the floor ; all the ])risoners sleep in hammocks slung from side to side of the cell, 
 which I think objectionable, but we have no other kind of bed. 
 
 280C). Lord Wodchouse.] On what ground do you think it objectionable ? 
 
 I think it is too comfortable ; I woi.ld give a man a hard board like a soldier 
 has in the guard-room ; 1 think cleanliness is essential, but anything in the shape 
 of luxury I think is a mistake. 
 
 2810. Chairman.] In the solitary cells for punishment have they any bedding? 
 We have not used them for eight or nine years, but there is a bed in them 
 
 which, I think, is a wooden betl ; it is a Hat bed on the floor. 
 
 2811. You liave expressed a decided opinion with respect to the advantage of 
 separation in chapel ? 
 
 Yes, undoubtedly; T have not the least liesitation in saying so after 16 years 
 of clos;' observation. I was six years acquainted as a visiting justice with the 
 associated principle in our old gaol. We opened our new gaol in 1844, and since 
 that time my attention has been weekly ])aid to everyihing going on there; it 
 has all come under my own personal observation, and I feel the strength of truth 
 in what I say. 
 
 2812. Chairman.] I see that masks were worn in your gaol; is that system 
 continued ? 
 
 Sir Richard Vivian, when he was Member for llelston, attacked us in a 
 pamphlet, accusing us of tyranny under the plea of benevolence. I felt that that 
 imputation was more than I was bound to sulmiit to as a visiting justice, and I 
 
 answered
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 255 
 
 answered him in a pamplilet. Those masks were just caps, with the ]ieak coming jy, Mem/, Esq. 
 
 down just below the nose, so as to make it impossible that one should recognise — — 
 
 a man ; but the mask was simply a loAver peak than ordinary caps had. ihat iCtli April 1863. 
 kind of mask we use now, and we think it a mercy to the prisoner. 
 
 2813. Have you found it necessary or expedient on any occasion to recom- 
 mend a remission of sentence to the Secretarj'^ of State ? — Yes. 
 
 2814. Will you state on what occasion you have done so? 
 
 We have occasionally had men of feeble constitutions come in, suffering under 
 epilepsy, or consumption, or incipient insanity. It was supposed that the separate 
 cell system would induce insanity; but it is a great fact, which' is quite worth sub- 
 mitting to your Lordships, that for the first tour years after the 0|)ening of Reading- 
 gaol, although there were 30 in each year who ought to have gone mad, that is 
 to say, insanity was more or less developed in themselves or in their families, yet 
 there was not a single case of insanity in the gaol. 
 
 2815. In cases of illness, or anything of that kind, have you applied for a remis- 
 sion of sentences ? 
 
 Yes ; whenever the life or the mind of the prisoner appears to be in danger 
 we feel it to be our duty to apply to the Secretary of State for a remission. 
 
 2816. Have you ever applied for a remisiion of sentence on the ground of 
 good conduct? 
 
 I am not sure that, some years ago, there was not such a case, but we re- 
 considered the matter, and never did so again. 
 
 ^O'^ 
 
 * Note. — This was our practice, but I have since found that in conse- 
 quence of "extra diet" being so frequently ordered by the surgeon, the 
 inspector advised that hard labour diet should be allowed, in order that 
 extras might be avoided. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 EDWARD SHEPHERD, Esquire, is called in, and examined, as follows : E. Shepherd, Esq. 
 
 281 7. Chairman.^ WHAT position do you occupy r 
 I am Governor of the West Riding Prison at Wakefield. 
 
 281 8. Have you been so for many years ? 
 
 Yes ; I have been governor 31 years, and I was six years previously deputy- 
 governor, so that my experience in that prison extends over 37 years. 
 
 2819. How many prisoners have you generally at Wakefield? 
 
 The prison at Wakefield is divided into two parts ; it contains the West Riding 
 prisoners, and it lets off to the Government two wings containing 400 convicts. 
 In the West Riding part of the prison there are now about 1,000 prisoners; the 
 average for the last year was between 960 and J ,000. 
 
 2820. You pursue the same system very much as is pursued at Pentonville, 
 do you not ? 
 
 With regard to the convicts, we do exactly the same; and with regard to the 
 majority of the West Riding prisoners we do the same also ; but the prison is not 
 large enough to hold all the prisoners in separate cells, so that the system called 
 the " silent system " is in operation for a certain class of prisoners. 
 
 2821. Are they classed at all in the same manner as they are in the diet 
 table ? 
 
 No ; the separation is not very marked ; for instance, men advanced in years 
 would not be sent into sei)arate confinement ; men whom the prison discipline 
 would not be likely to affect either for good or for evil, and ])risoners for short 
 periods are not all sent into separate confinement, uidess they are young, from 19 
 to 25 or 26 years of age, as that is the most dangerous age of their life ; therefore 
 nearly all of them are placed in separate confinement. 
 
 2822. How many separate cells have you in your in-ison ? 
 
 Five hundred separate cells at this moment ; the numbers are great now. 
 
 (37.8.) I 14 28^3. Have
 
 25G MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 JE. Shepherd, Esq. 2823. Have you any hard labour? 
 
 Not under the definition of the treadwheel or crank labour, but we have in- 
 
 iGih April 1863. tlvistrial labour ; we pursue the industrial labour very attentively ; it is made a 
 
 thorougli business of, and it is also considered a great part of the prison discipline, 
 
 that the men should be subjected to such hard labour as can be obtained from 
 trades. It is exceedingly difficult to say what is hard labour and what is not, for 
 you may stand over a man with a rod in your hand and you will not get him to do 
 above a certain quantity of work by ininishment. 
 
 2824. Earl of Z)«c?/ey.] But it is a different thing, is it nut, with the tread- 
 wheel ■ 
 
 It is. We had the treadwheel formerly, but it is so uncertain a punishment 
 that it was given up. Some men sutVered materially, and lost as much as five 
 pounds weight in a week ; it affects certain classes of persons much more than 
 others ; sedentary persons would suffer severely. 
 
 2825. Chairman.'] How long is it since you have given up the treadwheel ? 
 I think it was given up in 1840. 
 
 2S26. Lord Weusleydale.'] On whose order was it given up ? 
 
 It fell into disuse ; it was never specially ordered to be given up, but it fell into 
 disuse ; the magistrates generally disapproved of it. 
 
 2827. Earl of M(i!//iesbitrj/.] Did not you find that the men, when they got used 
 to it, could work with much greater ease than at first? 
 
 Yes ; and that in another respect makes it an uncertain punishment, because 
 when they got used to it, it was not very nmch of a punishment ; their mode of 
 treading, and other things, made it easy to some in comparison with what it would 
 be to other persons. 
 
 28.^8. But still it was not so easy as if they had none at all ? 
 
 I am not sure whether very good discipline, carried out with severe labour, is 
 not abetter plan than anything that you could have on the treadwheel, and it is 
 hard labour for the general run of prisoners. 
 
 2829. Earl of Dudley.] Do you take it upon yourself to dispense with a sen- 
 tence of hard labour ^vhich has been passed by a court of law ? 
 
 No, I never knew that hard labour meant the treadwheel ; there is no 
 such law that I know of; hard labour means hard work. There is a record 
 ■which goes to the judges of the land from Wakefield every assizes, stating what is 
 the labour which the prisoners pursue in that place, and it has never come back 
 to us with the lemark, " \'ou have not carried out ihe sentence that was ordered 
 by us." 
 
 2830. Earl of Mabneshury.'] But, in the common acceptation of the term, -would 
 you call the treadwheel hard labour, or hard work ? 
 
 Yes, but I would call other employments hard work, also. 
 
 2831. How can you get hard labour out of a prisoner who is engaged in mat- 
 making, or in any other industrial occupation ? 
 
 I can do it very well. 
 
 2832. Chair7)ian.'\ What trades do you emjdoy the prisoners in, in Wakefield 
 gaol. 
 
 Shoemaking, tailoring, mat making, and weaving, It is quite easy to compel 
 a prisoner to do a certain quantity of work, which quantity of work amounts to 
 ' hard labour. 
 
 2833. Earl o^ Dudley.'] Can you tell the Committee the method by which you 
 compel a man to do what you consider a hard labour day's labour. 
 
 Bv cx|)erience we know what an average quantity of work is, and Avhat all men 
 ought to do ; every man that does less than that quantity is punished. 
 
 2S34 But the great ])roportion of those who come to you, have to be instructed 
 in their industrial occupation, then, for the first time, have they not? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2835. Can you, therefore, establish any average of what a man just beginning 
 a new trade, can possibly do in a day? 
 
 For a certain length of time, say one month, a man is considered a learner, 
 according to circumstances, according to the sort of trade he is going to pursue. 
 He has to make a certain number of mats every week ; for example, supposing he 
 Lad six to make, the first week he would make two, and the second week three ; 
 
 and
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 257 
 
 and supposing ho continued at three for a week or two longer, and did not advance E. Shepherd, Esq. 
 
 up to six, he would be brought before me, the governor, and I should say, " You ' 
 
 have been long enough here to make more, and if you do not make more week by ^^'^^ ^f'^ '^^•'^ 
 
 week you will be punished," and he would be punished till he made the required ' 
 number. 
 
 2836. The required number would be six ? 
 Say six of one kind, for instance. 
 
 2837. Are those six mats anything like what a man would do if he were work- 
 ing for himself out of gaol ? 
 
 JNo. There is an establishment at Wakefield for giving employment to discharged 
 prisoners, which has been in operation since 1850, where the men when they o-q 
 out of prison have the same employment that they have had inside, and they have 
 to earn their own living ; they have to work by the piece, and they make nearly 
 three times as many. 
 
 2838. Still do you hold to your definition of its being a hurd day's labour to 
 make this maximum quantity of six mats a week ? 
 
 I should perhaps explain that the exercise in prisons, the parade, the chapel, 
 the school, and other things of that sort, take off many hours of labour in the day. 
 When they are out of prison they are employed from six o'clock until nine at 
 night, but when they are in prison then 1 very much doubt whether they really 
 work above eight hours, or even quite as much as eight hours, in any prison. I 
 believe that the work is as long in Wakefield as anywhere. 
 
 2839. Have you a statement of the occupations of the prisoners in the gaol 
 from six in the morning to nine at night ? 
 
 1 have not it with me, but I could oive it in such detail as would be intelligible. 
 
 2840. Lord IVensleyale.^ What is your measure of hard labour ; how much a 
 day .^ 
 
 When I stated that six mats was the average, I should have said that whenever 
 a man can make more, we compel him to make more ; but six is the mmimum. If 
 a prisoner can by dexterity or otherwise make more than that, and if he is not 
 industriously employed the whole of the day, he would then subject himself to be 
 punished, because although he made the average quantity, he would not make 
 what he c ould really and truly make by hard labour. 
 
 284K Lord Lyvedtn.'] What is the punishment that you would give him? 
 Bread and water for three days. 
 
 2842. For a failure in one dav's fulfilment of employment ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2843. Chairman.'] Could you give the Committee the detail of the employment 
 of the prisoners during the day ? 
 
 They rise at half-past five, and work from six to half-past seven. 
 
 2844. Are they called up by a bell? 
 
 They are called up by a bell ; but the oflScers go to every man's door a little 
 before six to have them up, so that they really are at M'ork at six. They have 
 their beds made and their cells all cleared and ready foi- work at six o'clock. 
 Certain of the officers who sleep in the prison go round every morningj beginning 
 at half-past five, and they have the men up, so that the general run of the 
 ofiicers when they come in at six find all the men ready for work at that moment. 
 They breakfast at half-past seven ; from half-past seven to nine, breakiiast and 
 attendance at chapel, chapel being immediately after breakfast ; from nine to one 
 work ; from one to two dinner ; from two to seven work ; then supper. 
 From that time to nine the 7nen may cither read or work as they think proper in 
 winter and summer, alone in their cells. They go to bed at nine, at which 
 hour the lights are put out. 
 
 2845. Lord Steward.] Is there any restriction as to communication ? 
 They are never allowed to converse at any time. 
 
 2846. Earl of Dudley.] Are they under the surveillance of the officers at all 
 times ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 (37. 8.) K K 2847. Lord
 
 258 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Shepherd, Esq. 2847. Lord JFtnsiej/dak.] Are they under the silent system? 
 Yes ; they are not allowed to tulk. 
 
 16th April 1863. o -n T /■ T^ 7/ T T^ 
 
 2848. barl of Dudley.] From half-past six or seven to nine do they occupy 
 
 themselves in work or reading r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2849. Is that the time they have instruction given to them? 
 
 No ; the prisoner is his own instrnctor in that time ; he is instructed in the 
 middle of the day. I will now give your Lordships the deductions from those 
 times. There is an hour and a half of exercise ; that is to say, one hour one day 
 and two hours the next, makinij an average of an hour and a hallF. 
 
 2S50. When does that come? 
 
 Whenever the exercise is twice a day, and two hours in all, it comes one hour 
 in the morning and one in the afternoon ; it is never two hours together. 
 
 2851. That is taken out of those two times of work between nine and one, and 
 between two and half-past six ? 
 
 Yes; and the time of school is also taken out of the same hours of working; 
 but the length of that time depends entirely upon the man's knowledge ; I should 
 say that it would average fully half an hour a day for all ; it is an hour for some 
 of those who are the most ignorant persons, but I have no doubt that it averages 
 fully half an hour a day. 
 
 2852. Does that come out of the first working time or the second working 
 time ? 
 
 Out of both the working times ; the school is going on all day for some classes. 
 
 2853. The only deduction for school is half-an-hour, on the average? 
 
 Yes; just so; but perhaps, on consideration, it is not quite as much as half-an- 
 hours mstruction, on the average ; then there is the inspection of the surgeon, and 
 the inspection of the chaplain, and the inspection of the governor, and the parade 
 of the men. I am cpiite sure that you might with safety take off" a quarter of an 
 hour a day more for that, but not more, from the actual hours of labour. 
 
 28,54. The maximum of vour work is, therefore, six and a-half hours a da}" ? 
 
 I think it is seven and a-half hours on the day on which the two hours arc 
 taken for exercise, and eight hours the other day ; but the Act of Parliament ])re- 
 scribes ten hours. 
 
 2855. Chairman.~\ Diil you adopt the eight hours from any idea of the suffi- 
 ciency of that labour? 
 
 No ; Ave adopted the eight hours because we could get no more with these 
 unfortunate interruptions. I have at all times advised that the school should be 
 after half-past seven. I think that it is a very improper thing that a prisoner's 
 working time should be occu|»ied by school. 
 
 2S.56. Have you ever made any representation of that kind ? 
 Yes, to the magistrates. 
 
 2857. Earl of 2)«c?/ev.] Are not you absolute in that matter? 
 
 No; the difficulties rest on the score of expense, in some respects. The school- 
 masters are employed at mid-day ; if they were employed in the evenings only 
 they v\ou]d have so great a number to teach that we should require perhaps four 
 or five times as many schoolmasters, because they would have them but one hour 
 to teach, whereas now they have eight or nine to teach in the whole day. 
 
 28.') 8. In one word, your answer is that two or three schoolmasters, as is the 
 case now, would not be sufficient to give every man a modicum of instruction if 
 the school were to be after seven o'clock ? 
 
 No ; it would be alumdant if we increased the schoolmasters. 
 
 2859. Lord irms/fj/f/fl/e.] llow many schoolmasters have you ? 
 
 Two; no instruction is given to the short-time prisoners; it is only those for 
 three months, and upwards, to whom instruction is imparted in the school. 
 
 2860. Are tlic prisftnirs for shorter .sentences than three months employed in a 
 diHerent way from the others? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2861. In
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 259 
 
 286 1 . In what manner are the}' eniijloyed ? E. Shepherd, Esq 
 
 Prisoners committed for seven clays and ten days are not employed at all ; they — ;- 
 
 are kept strictly separate, on bread and water. ^^'^ ^P"' '^^"* 
 
 •2862. Earl of Dudley.] You have neither the treadwheel nor the cranks r 
 No. 
 
 28f)3. Do you gi-ind your own corn? 
 
 IV'o; Ave buy the flour. 
 
 2864. How is the water supplied to the gaol ? 
 From the town. 
 
 2861. There is no labour used either fdr grinding flour, or for procuring water? 
 
 No. 
 
 2866. Lord Wcnsleijdale.'] Have you any breaking stones ? 
 No. 
 
 2867. Earl of Dudley.] You have no compulsory hard labour of any kind ? 
 No ; no other than what I have stated. 
 
 2868. By " compulsory labour " 1 mean where the men must follow the wheel 
 as it revolves? 
 
 Precisely so. Supposing a man says, as is sometimes the case, " I will not 
 work at the crank, and I will not work at the treadwheel," what are you to do 
 more than I do r You can but send him into solitary confinement, on bread and 
 water. 
 
 2869. Chairman.'] Have you not the power of inflicting corporal punishment 
 on the authority of the visiting justices ? 
 
 Yes ; but I think it is a punishment which the visiting magistrates would not 
 inflict for idleness. 
 
 2870. Earl of Budley.] Not for refusing to carry out the sentence of the 
 Court ? 
 
 No, they would not ; they never have done so ; they are opposed to it, and I 
 think they would not do it. 
 
 2871. Chairman.] Are the Committee to understand that you object to cor- 
 poral punishment ? 
 
 Yes, I do. I object to corporal punishment, except for one off'ence connected 
 with prisons, and that is, serious assaults upon officers; that is the only case in 
 which I should recommend corporal punishment. 
 
 2872. Earl of Dudley.] Therefore, if things come to an extreme pass, your 
 authority as well as that of the visiting justices is set at defiance ? 
 
 I have known such cases. 
 
 2873. If they will not work, you do not make them work? 
 
 If a man will not work, and if a man has reduced himself so low by punishment, 
 that lie can bear punislmient no longer, I have known cases in which we have 
 quietly pocketed our authority. They are very rare cases indeed ; but I merely 
 'mention that I have known such instances. 
 
 2874. In one word, if he has the power of endurance and the will also, he is 
 stronger than you are ? 
 
 Yes, there have been such cases. 
 
 2875. You therefore use the discretion that you have, acting under the orders 
 of the visiting justices, and do not carry out the sentence passed by th e law, 
 because the law says, that the prisoner is sentenced to so many months of deten- 
 tion in the house of correction with hard labour, but that labour, beyon d indus- 
 trial occupation, you do not force him to perform ? 
 
 Industrial occupation is, in my oiiiuion, and in the magistrates' opinion, hard 
 labour. 
 
 2876. Do you feel yourself justified in sayiog that you consider hard labour to 
 be industrial occupation ? 
 
 I do, most assuredly. I am quite sure that as it is carried out in the prison at 
 Wakefield, it is hard labour. 
 
 (37. 8.) K K 2 287-. Lord
 
 260 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 £,. Shepherd, Esq. 2877. Lord Wensleydale.\ What is gentle labour as contrasted with hard 
 
 — — labour ? 
 
 10th April 1863. What would be understood by picking oakum. 
 
 2S78. Chairman.l You have the same dietary in Wakefield which existed in 
 May 1850, have you not ? 
 
 We had up to a few months ago. 
 
 2879. Have you the dietary now in use which was passed in June 1862 ? 
 Yes ; it was passed in June, but it came into operation in September. 
 
 2880. Was the dietary of May 1850 determined by the visiting justices, or 
 was it fixed under any special order of the Secretary of State ? 
 
 The old dietary was compiled by direction of the visiting justices in the first 
 instance, and afterwards sanctioned by the Secretary of State. 
 
 2881. You have had an alteration since May 1850? 
 Yes. 
 
 2882. Was it fixed by the visiting justices ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 28S3. Was it sanctioned by the Secretary of Stater 
 
 It was sanctioned as an experiment for six months by the Secretary of State, 
 and no longer. 
 
 2884. Those six months have expired, have they not ? 
 Yes ; and we have apjilied to have the term renewed. 
 
 2885. What was the difference between the two diets, as to the amount of 
 solid food ? 
 
 It is very difficult to understand the diet in that form, but I thought it pos- 
 sible that 1 might be asked that question, and I have prepared it in this form. 
 Perhaps I should be understood if I gave it to the Committee in a short detail, 
 and it sliall be as short as possible. I have classed tlie food under three kinds, 
 that is to say, cereal (.inch as bread, flour, oatmeal, and peas) ; vegetables (such as 
 potatoes), and cooked meat. Under the old diet, a prisoner committed for one 
 month had 173 ounces of cereal food in the week, 36 ounces of vegetables, and no 
 cooked meat ; making a total of 209 ounces in the week. The new diet is, cereal 
 food, 1C9 ounces, vegetables, 56 ounces, cooked meat, six ounces. 
 
 2886. Then, in point of fact, you have increased the diet by the addition of 
 cooked meat ? 
 
 Yes ; the difference in the total amount would be as between 209 ounces and 
 231 ounces. The whole of this new diet is part of a plan for trying an alteration 
 of the discipline generally. I brought before the visiting justices certain facts 
 connected with the prison at Wakefield, as far as regarded the committals and the 
 recommittals, and certain facts connected with the prisons in England and Wales 
 under the same circumstances. In the prisons in England and \Vales for the 10 
 years ending 1858, there were 120,398 persons committed annually; in the 
 following two years there were 108,159, making a reduction in each of 
 the two years of 12,100. I brought tliis before the magistrates, and I stated 
 also that the tables, upon careful consideration showed that there was a con- 
 siderable defect either in criminal administration, or in prison management, 
 because the same tables show that 83,200 persons were committed for the 
 first time to prison m the earlier 10 years, and in the later two years when 
 there was a diminution of 12,000, there were 71,200 persons committed 
 for the first time ; that is to say, who had never been before in prison ; so 
 that the whole decrease in the two years was upon persons who had never been 
 in prison at all. It appeared, therefore, that other causes than prison management 
 influenced tiiat fireat reduction. The recommittals would enable us to see about 
 how far prison management or other causes had kept uj) the number of criminals. 
 There were recommiiials for the first offence in those ])revious 10 years, 16,370, 
 as compared with 15,400 committed twice, 7,100 in the earlier 10 years as com- 
 pared with 0,850 ; and committed three times, 3,836, as compared with 3,840 in 
 the later two years. We then come to those who were imprisoned a greater 
 number of times, and we find that in each of the earlier 10 years, the number 
 was 9,809, .and in each of the later two years, 10,746 ; so that it was quite clear 
 that it was the recommittals of persons that were keeping uji the number of 
 
 criminals
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 261 
 
 criminals in this country. It was not what I may term the original offenders, e. Shepherd, Esq. 
 
 because they were reduced to an enormous amount, to within 258 of the whole 
 
 decrease. 1 brought this before the magistrates, and 1 stated that possibly one i6th April 1863. 
 of the causes was a defective discipline (certainly it is a minor cause), of the 
 continued increase. There is another cause which I tliink is a much more im- 
 portant one ; but one cause was the defective discipline, and as this was general not 
 only in Wakefield but throughout England and Wales, there must be some general 
 cause. It was quite evident that prisoners were treated in some way that did not 
 either deter or reform them ; and the magistrates, therefore, directed me to draw 
 up some plan by which, if it were possible, either a deterring influence or a reform- 
 ing influence might be brought to bear upon the prisoners, according to the length 
 of their sentences. I did so, and a plan was introduced into the prison of various 
 privations in the earlier stages, such as strict separate confinement in a cell, no 
 visiting or correspondence of any kind, no books, no exercise, and a low diet. A 
 man when he came into prison was kept for the first 14 days on a strict discipline 
 •on purpose to try what effect it would have in the way of depression. At the end 
 of a month, if his conduct was perfectly satisfactory, he might have certain indul- 
 gences granted him, and be allowed the diet that is before your Lordshi])s, namely, 
 the third class of diet now in use. Every prisoner, when he came into prison, 
 Avas placed on the lowest class of diet ; and, up to lately, he had been subjected to 
 the discipline that I mentioned before to the Committee, for 14 days. At the end 
 of a month, if his conduct was very good (and his conduct was recorded by marks), 
 he was allowed a better class of diet, namely, the third class, and certain indul- 
 gences; for instance, the writing a letter to his friends, or receiving one, books, 
 -and writing materials (by bool<s, I mean other books than the Bible and Prayer 
 Book, wliich is given each prisoner at the first), and exercise, according to his 
 conduct and industry. These improvements went on until he had advanced 
 from stage to stage, until he came to the advanced class ; and he could 
 arrive at that class by very good conduct indeed in nine months. The 
 efl'ect of this discipline was very surprising, as far as regarded the conduct of the 
 prisoners and their industry. The report that was laid before the Quarter Sessions 
 the other day has this extract : " In August last the Secretary of State sanctioned, 
 as an experiment for six months, a new scale of diet, recommended by the visiting 
 justices. This scale came into operation in Sej)tember, and in connection with it 
 a new system based on that carried out in the Irish convict prisons. These ex- 
 ])eriments appear to work well, although there has been a much larger number of 
 prisoners in custody, yet owing to the improveil method of discipline there has 
 been a great diminution in the number of punishments for misconduct. In 18G1 
 there were 1,153 prisoners punished ; in 1862, 479, and 170 reduced in class. 
 Tlie average number iu custody was considerably greater in the vear 1862 than in 
 the year 1861." 
 
 2887. I understand from that that the effect of your new discipline has been 
 that you have fewer punishments in gaol ? 
 
 That is one effect, and the other effect has been with regard to the industry of 
 the prisoners. It is difficult to measure the industry on the whole scale through- 
 out the prison, but I will give the Committee the effect in one room. There is a 
 room in which 30 prisoners work, and the profit to the trade, from the work of 
 those men, is at the rate of 2 d. on the square yard of floor matting, after all the 
 expenses are paid. The men had no share of their profit, under any cir- 
 cumstances, before December last. The average quantity of work that they 
 did for the year was of the value of 40 Z. 13 s. per month. In the month 
 of December, by the directions of the magistrates, we tried this experiment. We 
 said to the prisoners, " If you are industrious you shall have extra food for your 
 industry, according as you work beyond a certain amount." The first month, that 
 is to say, in December, they earned 44/. 14s., and tlie value of the food which 
 was given amongst the whole 30 in the shape of extra diet was 7 s. \d. In the 
 next month, the month of January, they earned 5W. 18.y., and they had 12s. ^d. 
 extra diet given to them. In the next month, February, they earned 01/. lis., 
 and they had 15s. 4d. extra diet given to them. And in the next month, Marcli, 
 which is the last I have taken an account of, they earned 72/. 8s., and 19s. 2d. 
 was the value of the extra food that was given to them. The profit on their work 
 had risen ia four months from 40/. 13s. to 72/. 8s. a month. 
 
 (37. 8.) K K 3 2888. You
 
 262 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Shepherd, Esq. 2 88 8. You look upon this, do you not, as an economical question in point of 
 
 monev 
 
 i6th April 1863. I ^^■^^[ not intend to place it in such a light ; it is a low estimate, to look at it 
 merely in a money point of view. I wish to place it before the Committee as a 
 something that could be done by holding out inducements to ]n-isoners. Instead 
 of the usual course in all cases of punishment which, as I told your Lordships a 
 sliort time ago, was very unsatisfactory with regard to getting a quantity of work 
 done, I hold out a hope to the man. I say, " If you will do more work, you 
 will receive more for it." It might be better, perhaps, to pay the men something 
 on discharge ; but it does not come direct to them day by day, as this matter of 
 food does. They feel every day that they have gained something, and they exert 
 themselves inconsequence; and when one considers that nearly double the amount 
 of work is done compared with what used to be the case, it is astonishing 
 what effect a little inducement of that kind has upon them. 
 
 2889. Then you imagine that you make the prisoners more industrious by that 
 means ? 
 
 Yes ; I conceive that if you induce industrious habits under any guise you like, 
 you are doing good. The men are sent to prison because many of them are dirty, 
 slovenly, idle men, and they are sent to prison if possible to eradicate those habits, 
 and if you can eradicate them by inducements of any sort (by punishments I am 
 quite sure you cannot in many instances), I feel that one is doing them good. 
 
 2890. May you not render the gaol rather too comfortable for them, so as to 
 make them wish to come into it ? 
 
 That is always to be dreaded, but what I began with at first was a statement of 
 making it as hard in strict confinement as I possibly could, bearing in mind that a 
 man, even if he be advanced in class, may be reduced back again by misconduct. 
 
 2891. You abandon altogether the punishment of the individual and the object 
 of deterring others from commiiting crime t 
 
 I think 1 have not said so, because T have said just the contrary ; I said that I 
 made the place as severe as I could for a short time ; in fact, I recommended one 
 tiling more which I should like to have generally adopted throughout the country ; 
 I recommended that every man who is sentenced to a short period, when he comes 
 into prison, should sleep on a guard betlstead ; of course I exclude old men and 
 women. You cannot make the place too severe for a man at first. When I state 
 that many prefer the prison to the workhouse, it is what every one knows ; but it 
 really is a startling thing that it should be so. I am given to understand that chey 
 even prefer the prison to the reformatory, which 1 am also very sorry to hear. 
 
 2892. Earl of Dudley.] Have you ever visited a reformatory : 
 Yes. 
 
 289;^. C/iairniaii.] With regard to the increase of diet, do you think that that 
 tends to make them dislike a prison ? 
 
 I think I oidy began with one month ; if your Lordship would go forward 
 through this dietary with me you would see that we have a scale for two months 
 and three months and upwards, although we always begin at the low scale. 
 Formerly if a man was sentenced for 12 montiis we gave him the best diet, that is 
 to say, we gave him the diet that you find marked on the table as No. 1, the day 
 he came into the prison. Now we give him the lowest diet, and he must work 
 his way u])wards to the better diet. 
 
 2894. What is the use of long imprisonments ? 
 
 When imprisonments are for short periods a man can bear a little pinching and 
 a little loss of weight, but the more they work and the longer they are in prison 
 the better diet do they require. This diet is perhaps not the very best chosen 
 diet, but we are trying to inijirove it ; the j)rincip!e is good, and I have no doubt 
 that in a second attempt we shall have it l>ettcr ada])tcd. At present I think we 
 bcfin too low fnr men of long sentences. What with the pressure of the separate 
 confinement and the low diet, 1 think Ihey break down rather in the beginning, 
 and they do not recover when they get the better classes of diet. The difference 
 between the old diet and the new is, that on the old diet whatever length the 
 man's sentence was, he began with that diet the day he came into the prison. 
 
 Now
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 263 
 
 Now we make him begin with the low diet, and work liis way up by his good E. Sltepltcrd, Esq. 
 
 conduct; and it works in this way: a well conducted man gets a better class of 
 
 diet, Avhereas :i badly conducted man remains in the fourth class the whole of his ^^'^ ''^'"'' '^^3- 
 time, and does not get nut of it at all. " 
 
 2895. Earl of DudU'ij.~] Are there many of them that remain in the low class ? 
 
 I do not know of more than three. I inquired amongst the subordinates, and 
 we could not discover more than three who were in for long periods who had not 
 been advanced. Many who are in for two months do not get advanced at all, 
 although they would be advanced if their conduct was good. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, 
 
 One o'clock. 
 
 (37. 8.) K K 4
 
 ( 265 ) 
 
 Die Martis, 2P Aprilis 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT: 
 
 Duke of Richmond. I Eail Cathcart. 
 
 Duke of Marlborough. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 LoHD Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of RoMNEY. 
 
 Eail of DuciE. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Loid Wensleydale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair. 
 
 Evidence oil 
 
 Prison Discipline. 
 
 ED^YARD SHEPHERD, Esquire, is again called in, and examined E. Shepherd, Esq. 
 
 as follows : . 7 ^^ 
 
 2ist April 1863. 
 
 2896. Chairman.'] IS there anything that you wish to add to your evidence 
 on the last occasion of the meeting of the Committee ? 
 
 I was directed to give the Committee some further information upon certain 
 points upon which I was examined at the last meeting. First, with regard to 
 the routine of the prisons, L stated that the hours of labour were eight-and-a- 
 half hours, but I did not give exactly the particulars ; we only arrived at eight 
 hours. I have now before me the routine. The bell rings for the prisoners to 
 rise at half-past five ; the cells are cleaned befoi-e six in the morning, and they 
 are washed on two days in the week after work hours. The prisoners com- 
 mence work at six ; they breakfast at 7-30 ; chapel at eight ; commence work 
 again at nine ; work until one ; dinner at one ; commence work at two ; and 
 continue work till supper, at seven. The gas is lighted until nine, when the 
 prisoners go to bed. The honrs of work in the gross, therefore, are ten and a 
 half, and the deductions for exercise are an hour and a half; school and other 
 interruptions of work an average of half an hour, making the total hours of 
 work eight hours and a half. I have brought an extract from the prison rules 
 with regard to the school ; the rule is this: "Adult prisoners, sentenced to 
 hard labour, shall have one hour's instruction separately, or in a class 
 during the hours of labour." " Each prisoner twice a week, according as 
 the chaplain finds it practicable, and all the other prisoners, shall have 
 such an amount of time allowed for instruction as the chaplain may think 
 proper." 
 
 2897. Marquess of Sa/isbiiri/.] Did not you state that a larger number of 
 schoolmasters would be necessary if the instruction were given after the hours 
 of work ? 
 
 Yes. I have considered rhat point also. I think it is so important that the 
 school should be after the work hours iu the evening, which is what is natural 
 out of doors to every one, that I have consulted the schoolmasters and the 
 officials as to the expense. I spoke rather off-hand in my former exami- 
 nation with regard to the expense. I thought that it woidd add materially to 
 the expense; but now I find, on close examination, that it will not add any- 
 thing to the expense. More schoolmasters, it is true, would be required ; 
 I think, in place of two, perhaps six would be required. The time occupied 
 being only one hour and a half, or two hours, in an evening, it is possible to 
 obtain instructors, who would not be engaged the whole of the day, for a small 
 
 (37. 9.) L L remuneration
 
 2 1st April i8t53. 
 
 266 MINXTTES OF EVIDEXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. ShepherJ, Esq. remuneration per annum ; and 1 have come to the conclusion that it would not 
 add to the expense of the prison in the least. 
 
 2S98. Chairman.] Wovdd there not he a great advantage in having one fixed 
 hour of the day during which the instruction should be given, rather than 
 making it variable, and, consequently, dependent upon the discretion of the 
 chaplain or schoolmaster, as the case might be ? 
 
 1 believe the best plan would be that the instruction should be given at a 
 fixed hour to persons sentenced for a certain length of time, and that the instruc- 
 tion should be uniform. 
 
 2899. Do you, from vour experience, foresee any practical difficulty in making 
 the hours in the evening, say from seven till nine, or from eight till nine, as the 
 case might be, the time when instruction should be given under those circum- 
 stances ? 
 
 No, I do not ; 1 see no difficulty whatever which is not easily surmountable 
 by other arrangements with respect to the schoolmasters, the officers, and the 
 chaplain perhaps. 
 
 29C0. And, on the other hand, b}' adopting that fixed time at which the 
 instruction should be given, of course a great gain would result to the discipline 
 and to the regularity of the hours in the prison ? i 
 
 Yes, veiy great ; and to the earnings also, for those are points, of course, which 
 one has to consider in any recommendation ; I believe that the continual break- 
 ing off of the employment, and prisoners frittering away their time, is bad, and 
 that it is better for them to work continuously during the hours between 
 meals. 
 
 2001. One of the witnesses, when examined on this point, stated that there 
 would be considerable difficulty in giving instruction in the evening, inasmuch 
 as the prisoners woidd be liable to go to sleep over their woik ; do you imagine, 
 from your practical experience of this question, that that difficulty would be a 
 serious one? 
 
 I think not ; I think that people out of doors "o to evening schools who work 
 \ery hard indeed all day, and I see no difficulty whatever; in fact, I think it 
 would be a very great improvement. 
 
 2902. What is the number of prisoners that you in practice admit to a class 
 for instruction ? 
 
 I think the number would he in a great measure dependent upon the extent 
 of their previous knowledge ; for instance, only a few uneducated prisoners 
 could be taught together l^y one schoolmaster, but many might be taught 
 together if they were in some degree advanced in education. I think that the 
 highest number that it would be desirable to assign to one schoolmaster would 
 be 30, and the lowest 20. 
 
 2903. Is the instruction given at Wakefield in the chapel, or in a school- 
 ro m ? 
 
 It is now given in a schoolroom ; it has been given in the chapel. 
 
 2904. Are there partitions in the chapel? 
 No ; there were. 
 
 2905. Nor in the schoolroom? 
 No ; none in the schoolroom. 
 
 2906. Are you averse to partitions ? 
 Very much indeed ; I have seen so many evils from them that I am very 
 
 much averse to them ; I should explain to the Committee, that only about one- 
 half of the instruction is given in the school, the other half .being given in the 
 cells. 
 
 2907. Does the chaplain preside over the instruction as well as the school- 
 master ? 
 
 It is his special department. 
 
 2908. "\Mun the men are assembled in classes, does the chaplain instruct 
 them ? 
 
 Yes, he does. 
 
 2909. And
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 267 
 
 2909. And he goes from cell to cell to give instruction to them there ? E. i^hephaiI,Esq. 
 ]\'o;" he goes from cell to cell in his usual visitation as a chaplain, but not 21st April 1863 
 
 as an instructor, nor does he go, I believe, from cell to cell in any way connected ' 
 
 with instruction. 
 
 2910. I presume that at Wakefield books are distributed to the pri- 
 
 soners 
 
 Yes ; a school-book is given by the chaplain (a book as to the education 
 that the prisoner will pursue), and*^ reading books are given out twice a week 
 by the schoolmaster. They are taken from cell to cell, and changed in 
 every cell ; for instance, the books which a prisoner in No. 1 has this week, 
 are given next week to the prisoner in No. 2, and so on throughout the 
 prison. 
 
 291 1. Is there any limitation with regard to the number of books which are 
 issued at one time to each j)risoner r 
 
 Practically there is ; as a rule, a prisoner has two books of an amusing cha- 
 racter; not religious books. 
 
 291 2. Is every prisoner considered entitled to two books as soon as he comes 
 into the gaol, or are they allowed to him after he has passed a certain period of 
 imprisonment, and as a privilege ? 
 
 They are allowed to him as a privilege, which he is not entitled to in the 
 earlier stages. 
 
 2913. At what period of the confinement does the distribution of books to a 
 prisoner commence ? 
 
 When he has obtained the third class, and is beginning the fourth class. I 
 wish to explain that the best class is No. 1, and No. 7 is the worst. The 
 paper which is before your Lordship is not quite satisfactory, and will not be 
 persevered in. 
 
 29 M. Are the Committee to understand that books are not distributed to 
 the prisoners until they reach the third class ; that is to say, after one month's 
 confinement ? 
 
 After one month's confinement, and good conduct and industry, they are 
 allowed books. 
 
 2915. And you have no further rule, which limits the disti'ibution of those 
 books ? 
 
 None. 
 
 2916. Is a record kept of the prisoners to whom the books are distributed? 
 Yes. 
 
 29 1 7. Does a prisoner frequently upply for a book ? 
 
 Not to me. I do not think that there are any causes of complaint ; I have 
 never heard of an3^ I believe the schoolmasters are indulgent ; and if the 
 books were small, of course there would be more than two given ; I am speaking 
 of two good-sized octavo books. 
 
 2918. With regard to the question. of the dietary, will you be good enough 
 to continue the explanation which you commenced ? 
 
 If you will allow me, I have one or two more corrections to make in my 
 former evidence. I wish to present to the Committee in detail what I stated 
 in abstract, and which was hardly correct, an account of the number and de- 
 scription of committals in England and Wales. The number of separate and 
 other cells in the Wakefield prison, and other cells at the task-work in prison. 
 
 (37. 9.) L L 2 The
 
 2G8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Shepherd, Esq. The number of committals in England and Wales are as follows : — 
 
 2 1st April 1863. 
 
 Table (A.) 
 
 Committals in England and JVulex (exclusive of Debtors), taken from Judicial 
 
 Statistics. 
 
 
 First 
 Offence. 
 
 RE-COMMITTALS. 
 
 Total 
 Re- 
 Committals. 
 
 Grand Total 
 
 Years. 
 
 Once. 
 
 Twice. 
 
 Tlirice. 
 
 Four times 
 and upwards. 
 
 Committed. 
 
 J849 
 
 90,982 
 
 18,157 
 
 7,792 
 
 3,945 
 
 9,932 
 
 39,826 
 
 130,808 
 
 1850 
 
 80,0fi4 
 
 16,463 
 
 7,319 
 
 4,003 
 
 9,639 
 
 37,424 
 
 117,488 
 
 18.51 
 
 86,081 
 
 16,827 
 
 7,27G 
 
 3,793 
 
 8,924 
 
 36,820 
 
 122,901 
 
 1852 
 
 81,041 
 
 15,427 
 
 6,596 
 
 3,620 
 
 8,953 
 
 34,596 
 
 115,637 
 
 1853 
 
 76,485 
 
 14,421 
 
 6,695 
 
 3,563 
 
 8,886 
 
 33,565 
 
 110,050 
 
 1854 
 
 82,344 
 
 15,342 
 
 6,735 
 
 3,589 
 
 9,684 
 
 35,350 
 
 117,694 
 
 1855 
 
 83,942 
 
 14,596 
 
 6,342 
 
 3,387 
 
 9,366 
 
 33,693 
 
 117,635 
 
 1856 
 
 84,689 
 
 15,824 
 
 6,696 
 
 3,718 
 
 10,366 
 
 30,604 
 
 121,293 
 
 1867 
 
 85,462 
 
 18,374 
 
 8,128 
 
 4,400 
 
 11,267 
 
 42,169 
 
 127,631 
 
 1858 
 
 81,257 
 
 18,268 
 
 7,909 
 
 4,345 
 
 11,058 
 
 41,680 
 
 122,837 
 
 Total - 
 
 832,347 
 
 163,099 
 
 71,488 
 
 38,363 
 
 98,077 
 
 371,627 
 
 1,203,974 
 
 Yearly 1 
 Average/ 
 
 83,235 
 
 16,370 
 
 7,149 
 
 3,836 
 
 9,808 
 
 37,163 
 
 120,398 
 
 1859 
 
 73,313 
 
 10,340 
 
 7,201 
 
 3,991 
 
 10,890 
 
 38,428 
 
 111,741 
 
 1860 
 
 69,194 
 
 14,570 
 
 6,504 
 
 3,700 
 
 10,601 
 
 35,381 
 
 104,575 
 
 Total - 
 
 142,507 
 
 30,922 
 
 13,705 
 
 7,691 
 
 21,491 
 
 73,809 
 
 216,316 
 
 Yearly ~1 
 Average/ 
 
 71,253 
 
 15,461 
 
 6,852 
 
 3,846 
 
 10,746 
 
 36,905 
 
 108,158 
 
 With regard to the cells, there are in the new prison at Wakefield 408 cells 
 for males, and 158 of the old large size; for females, there are in the new 
 prison 70 cells, and of the old size 83 ; making a total of 719 full-sized cells 
 certified for separate confinement. I have also a return of the munber of mats 
 made by men in the prison, and the number made by workmen in the Indus- 
 trial Home, who have been prisoners, and it is as follows : 
 
 Table (B.) 
 
 Number of Mats made by Men in Prison, and Number made by Workmen in the 
 Industrial Home who have been Prisoners. 
 
 • 
 
 Hours of Labour. 
 
 - 
 
 8i per Day. 
 
 11 per Day. 
 
 DESCRIPTION UF MATS. 
 
 Minimum. 
 
 Number the 
 best Workmen 
 
 can 
 make in Prison. 
 
 Number made 
 
 by 
 
 Workmen 
 
 Outside. 
 
 Common mats, in looms ..... 
 Best, on boards 
 
 30 
 6 
 
 40 
 10 
 
 80 
 16 
 
 f Looms 
 Hours being alike, the numbers would be| 
 
 [Boards 
 
 . 
 
 62 
 13 
 
 
 The
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 269 
 
 The scale of diet which I beg to lay before your Lordships is founded in part E. Shepherd, Esq. 
 
 upon the one which you have before you, and where we have found defects I 
 
 have tried to alter them ; so that it is more adapted to the requirements of the ^'^'^ ■^P"' '^"^S- 
 prison than the scale that we have used ourselves. If your Lordships will 
 allow me, 1 will hand in this scale. The old scale has defects ; and altliough 
 the Secretary of State has sanctioned it up to the present time, I believe that he 
 will not sanction it again ; so that it is not desirable to bring forward what will 
 not be approved, but what possibly may be approved. In order to make it 
 more easily understood, I have not subdivided it into various descriptions of 
 food, but I have given the quantities in totals, so as to make it applicable. It 
 may be clianged in some respects, but the quantities are the same. There are 
 seven diets. I propose that all prisoners committed for terms of imprisonment 
 not exceeding 10 davs should have the cereal food which is given with regard 
 to tliat class, namely, bread and oatmeal porridge, 140 ounces per week ; 
 prisoners committed for terms exceeding 10 days, and not exceeding a month, 
 164 ounces of cereal food and 36 ounces of vegetable food, making 200 ounces. 
 Those two classes are fixed ; and the next begins the graduated scale. All 
 other prisoners during the first month of their imprisomcnt should have 
 182 ounces of cereal food, 60 ounces of vegetable food, and 8 ounces of animal 
 food, making 250 ounces. The fourth class, which is obtainable by good con- 
 duct end industry, after the completion of one month's imprisonment, should 
 have 188 ounces of cereal food, 68 ounces of vegetable, and 10 ounces of animal 
 food, making 266 ounces. The third class, obtainable by good conduct and 
 industry, after the comj)letion of four months' imprisonment, 200 ounces of 
 cereal food, 7G ounces of vegetable food, and 1 4 ounces of animal food, making 
 290 ounces. The second class obtainable by good conduct and industry, after 
 the completion of eight months' imprisonment, 200 ounces of cereal food, 
 104 ounces of vegetable food, and 16 ounces of animal food, being 320 ounces. 
 To the first class I would give the same description of food, with the addition of 
 seven pints of milk. I have described at the bottom of the scale that " cereal " 
 consists of bread, oatmeal, two ounces to each pint of gruel, flour used in pud- 
 dings or soup, and peas used in soup. The vegetable food consists chiefly 
 of potatoes and onions, and the animal food of meat, cooked, given cold 
 or in soup, calculated without bone, and after boiling. There is a material 
 addition at the bottom of this diet, that if a prisoner misconducts himself he 
 may be reproved or punished by solitary confinement on bread and water for 
 three days, or reduced in class, at the discretion of the governor. 
 
 29 1(). If reduced in class, would he be obliged to work his way up again 
 through the other classes, or would he be, on good conduct, re-transferred 
 from the class to which he was degraded to the class from which he was sent 
 down ? 
 
 The usual rule which I have acted upon in 99 cases out of 100 is to degrade 
 one class only upon an offence ; that is to say, to the next below it. I have 
 rarely ever degraded a prisoner beyond that. 
 
 2920. Lord Weuslei/daie.^ Is that a permanent degradation ? 
 
 No ; it is only until by his good conduct a prisoner is restored again ; he 
 may be restored in the same lengths of time in which he originally arrived at 
 that class. 
 
 2921. Chatrmau.'] In addition to the present scale of diet are extra diets 
 in use in the prison under the order of the surgeon .^ 
 
 . Yes. 
 
 2922. Can you put in a return of the number of extra diets during every 
 year ? 
 
 I have not it with me to-day, but I will furnish it to the Committee ; I 
 remember looking it up for some other purpose, and it is about the same extra 
 diet as it was in the old diet. 
 
 2923. Marquess of Salishuri).'] Has not the surgeon unlimited power in that 
 respect r 
 
 Yes, unlimited to any extent. There is a direction at. the bottom of the 
 scales, but he rarely adheres to it ; he gives what he thinks ])roper. 
 
 (37.9.) ll3 2924. Chairman,
 
 270 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Shtpheid,Esq. 292^. Climrman.] Do the Government convicts who ai'e in confinement at 
 T Wakefield enjoy the same dietary as the ordinary prisoners 1 
 
 ^^^ ^ ^' No ; they enjoy a greatly increased dietary. I have not the quantities before 
 me, hut if the Committee will jud<ie by the expense, it is just exactly double 
 the expense of the West Riding dietary. I could furnish a copy of it. 
 
 2925. Does the dietary of a convict in Wakefield prison vary when he comes 
 in, or does he at once receive the maximum? 
 
 He at once receives the maximuai. 
 
 2926. Would that maximum considerably exceed the 320 oz. which you 
 . have described as the dietary of your fourth amended class ? 
 
 Not considerably ; but it does exceed it in the article of meat. 
 
 2927. Can you state to what account r 
 Twenty- eight cunces of cooked meat. 
 
 292 S. Instead of 16 oz , or in addition to the 16 oz. ? 
 Instead of the 16 oz. 
 
 2929. Are those 16 oz. of cooked meat, or uncooked meat ? 
 
 Ihey are all cooked meat. I think it is as well that your Lordships should 
 understand the enormous difference between meat cooked and meat given 
 uncooked. The 3 oz. of cooked meat for the West Riding prisoners is origi- 
 nally 9 oz., as bought in the market ; the bone and waste in boiling, and the 
 draughts in weighing out small quantities of 3 oz. each, make it exactly that 
 amount by the year together, so that it is really three times as much in bought 
 meat. 
 
 2030. Earl of Diidh'j/.] According to what you have told the Committee, that 
 would repi-esent 48 oz. of food ? 
 Yes, it does. 
 
 2931. Two-thirds, you say, go to waste in bone, in boiling, in weighing out, 
 and in fat ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2932. Chairman-I Are the convicts in Wakefield prison employed in the 
 same work as the prisoners in ordinary confinement ? 
 
 Yes, exactly. 
 
 2933. But yet 1 understand from your answer that they receive 28 oz. of 
 meat, in lieu of 16 oz. ? 
 
 Yes, they do. 
 
 2934. Are you aware whether the convicts prefer confinement in Wakefield 
 prison to confinement in a Government prison ? 
 
 The prisoners on the West Riding side prefer the Government side to the 
 Wakefield side. I have heard it frequently said by prisoners, " Do let us be 
 transfeired over to the other side, and then we shall get more to eat." 
 
 2935. Does a convict dietary in Wakefield Prison include 3oz. of cocoa, 
 3 oz. of molasses, and 2 oz. of milk, on certain occasions ? 
 
 No, it is not that exactly ; it is a pint of milk in the morning for breakfast. 
 We have no cocoa. 
 
 2936. Do they have tea or coffee ? 
 No. ■ 
 
 2937. In these respects you vary from the dietary laid down in Pentonville ? 
 Yes, we do vary in that respect from Pentonville. 
 
 2038. Earl of Dndlcj/.'] Who is answerable for the quantity of meat which 
 comes into the gaol ? 
 The steward and cook. 
 
 2()Vh Who has the right to all that is left ? 
 
 There is nothing at all left. What I mentioned to your Lordships as being 
 lost in boiling goes into the other meals of the prisoners, so that they get that 
 in addition, which is not considered. 
 
 2940. In
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 27] 
 
 2940. In all cooking there is bone and ftit, which is never u:*d up again, is E.Sheplierd.Esq. 
 there not ? 
 
 The fat is used. I consider that fat is a most important element in a 21st April 1863. 
 
 prisoner's diet. I believe that no good diet can be made unless all the fat is 
 
 used. I believe it would be detrimental to health to dispose of the fat, or o-et 
 rid of it in any way whatever, except by giving it to the prisoners. 
 
 2941 . Is there no sale of broken meat from the prison ? 
 None, except of bones. 
 
 2042. Does the profit of that come to the establishment ? 
 
 Yes, the profit of that is deducted from the expense ; the bones are con- 
 tracted for exactly the same as the diet is contracted for ; there is a contract 
 issued annually for bones, by the ton. 
 
 2943. Then there are no perquisites in the shape of broken meat taken out 
 the gaol r 
 None whatever. 
 
 2944- Chainntm.] I observe that in your evidence of Thursday last, you 
 stated, in answer to a noble Lord, that the treadwheel was entirely given up in 
 Wakefield Prison, because it was so uncertain in punishment. 
 
 I. do not think I said that it was given up because it was so uncertain in 
 punishment : it fell into disuse on account of the great loss of weight as much 
 as anything else ; the prisoners who were subjected to it losing, in one week, 
 five pounds in weight perhaps, and in the second week two pounds or three 
 pounds, and in five weeks many of them would lose 10 pounds in weight. 
 
 2945. Earl of Dudley.'] Was not it found that that was all recovered after 
 the first fortnight. 
 
 No, it was not recovered, I did not intend to state expressly that the tread- 
 wheel was given up on account of" its being an uncertain punishment, but it was 
 given up, generally, on account of the loss of weight of the prisoners. It fell 
 into disuse principally on that account. 
 
 2946. Was it not that the magistrates set their faces against it, and said that 
 they would not permit it to be employed ? 
 
 It was something of that sort, certainly. 
 
 2947. Chairman.'] Can you state the grounds upon which the magistrates 
 were opposed to the use of it ? 
 
 I think the magistrates were opposed to it because they considered that it 
 was not a good punishment. The prisoners are sent to prison for two objects, 
 one to deter and another to reform : it might, in some respects, be more deterring 
 than other punishments, but certainly it had no reformatory tendencies. Many 
 men are sent to prison because they are idle ; and if they are set to some such 
 distasteful labour as the treadwheel or the crank, it was the opiinon of the 
 magistrates that they would detest work still more when they went out of 
 prison, and that instead of labour being a pleasure to them, it would be a 
 detestation. 
 
 2948. Consequently, it was given up rather because it did not effect the 
 reformatory objects of a prison, in the opinion of the magistrates, than because 
 it failed to punish ? 
 
 I think that was so, as nearly as I can recollect the reason. 
 
 2949. "Was it not in accordance with your former evidence that uncertainty 
 Vas one of the elements which entered into it ? 
 
 \ es, and it is in accordance with it now ; I am of the same opinion now. 
 
 2950. Will you explain to the Committee in what that uncertainty of the 
 treadwheel consists ? 
 
 I think I did mention to the Committee that it consisted in the |>revious 
 habits of the prisouers ; that persons of sedentary employments were punished 
 much more severely than others ; that persons who are the least criminal (if I 
 may use such a term), who come to prison for the first time, suffered far more 
 than old offenders, such as travelling thieves, vagabonds, and tramps, who are 
 accustomed to the treadwheel. 
 
 (37. 9.) L L 4 295 1 . Is
 
 2/2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 K. Shepherd, Esq. 29.5!. Is it vour opinion that industrial employment of the coarsest nature, 
 
 such as mat-making, is in itself a punishment ? 
 
 2ist April 1863. Yes, I am sure it is. 
 
 29,52. Of course it would be a greater punishment in proportion as the person 
 was unaccustomed to the work ? 
 
 That, no doubt, is so in some respects, but not to the same extent. 
 
 ^953- Consequently, mat-making of the coarsest character would be a heavier 
 punishment to a tramp who was constantly on foot in the country than it would 
 be to a man whose employment had been, during the greater part of his life, 
 to make mats r 
 
 The employments connected with making mats are various, and can be 
 adapted in a great measure to the abilities and the previous habits of either 
 agricultural men or men living in towns. 
 
 2954. Must it not, however, follow as a matter of necessity that the punish- 
 ment must vary with the different classes of persons who are sentenced to 
 punishment, and that it is absolutely impossible to obtain anything like precise 
 equality ? 
 
 It is absolutely impossible in any punishment whatever : whether it be the 
 treadwheel, or separate confinement without any work at all, or work of any 
 description, you cannot attain uniformity, even as a punishment, between one 
 man and another man. 
 
 2955. Must not any punishment vary, and vary to an enormous degree, in 
 l)roportion to the height, to the age, to the physical strength, and even to the 
 mentiil capability and moral endurance of the prisoners ? 
 
 Of course, and the treadwheel especially would vary with regard to a thin tall 
 man and a very stout man ; and there are various descriptions of employment 
 in the mat trade, which none but very strong men could work at. 
 
 2956. Consequently, the same objections of inequality and uncertainty which 
 apply to the treadwheel must, of necessity, apply to mat-making, or to any 
 other employment on which prisoners are engaged ? 
 
 No ; there may be in mat-making a diversity of punishment, but not to the 
 same extent ; because in mat-making the employments are so various that they 
 can be apportioned to the men : the treadwheel is uniform, and cannot be so 
 apportioned. 
 
 2957. Who apportions the work? 
 I do. 
 
 2958. How many prisoners have you under your charge ? 
 One thousand four hundred. 
 
 29'',9. Are the Committee to unde rstand that you succeed in apportioning very 
 justly, and very fairly to the physical strength and to the mental power of each 
 man, the amount of mat-making which is necessary in order to constitute hard 
 labour ? 
 
 1 think, taking the words in their widest sense, I do. Of course there are 
 exceptions to that rule, but I do believe I do it, in conjunction with the 
 officers under me, I having the general supervision of the concern. 
 
 2960. Do you believe that the apportionment which a single individual can 
 make amongst 1,400 men who are passing annually through a gaol, approaches 
 more nearly to correctness than the apportionment of labour which you would 
 have on the treadwheel? 
 
 Certainly it does. For instance, all the persons who come into confinement 
 to-day, 1 ))iace out to the several enii)loyments tln-oughout the prison on the 
 morrow ; and in the event of any of those men not being adapted to that 
 employment, or failing in any way to succeed, either from want of capacity or 
 from want of strength, they are brought before me again. In fact, they are 
 brought before me twice every wi'ek ; I see the work that every man does in 
 the prison twice every week ; it is brought before my eyes, and 1 have to 
 change it according to circumstances. 
 
 2961. I understand at the same time tliat there is no task-work in Wakefield 
 Prison ? 
 
 Yes.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 273 
 
 Yes, there is ; I have laid before your Lordships a correct copy of the task- £. Shepherd, Esq. 
 work. It varies in some minor matters from what I stated before. I have given ■— - 
 
 in a statement of the number of mats made by men in prison, and the number gis t April i8 t>3. 
 made bv workmen in the Industrial Home who have been prisoners, the 
 description of mats, and the hours of labour. Of common mats made in looms, 
 the minimum quantit\- jx-r week is 30 ; of the best mats made on boards, six. 
 The number of common mats that the best workmen can make in prison is 40 ; 
 the number made by workmen out of doors is 80. With regard to the best 
 mats on hoards, si.x is the minimum niimber; the best workmen in prison can 
 make 10, and the number made by workmen out of doors is 16 — the hours of 
 labour being 8i in prison, and 11 out of doors. If the hours of labour were 
 alike, the best workmen in prison, instead of making 40, would at the same rate 
 of time make 62, and instead of making 10 of the stronger sort, they would 
 make 13. 1 have obtained those details from the actual figures. 
 
 2962. Then the Committee understand that you do not exact as task-work 
 from the prisoners the same amount of mat-making which a free labourer would 
 spontaneously perform for himself? 
 
 No ; we should be glad to exact it, but we cannot get it. No prison labour, 
 no slave labour, or anything else of that kind, will come up to what a free 
 labourer out of doors will do who is paid by the );iece. 
 
 21103. Is it not jiossible, on the other hand, to obtain a more regular and 
 fixed pro])ortion of labour, where you have such a machine as the treadwheel 
 or the crank, where a certain number of revolutions, which may be graduated to 
 the strength of every individual, can be required ? 
 
 You could not graduate the treadwheel. 
 
 2964. Y'ou could apportion it ? 
 
 But you must work at exactly the same rate on the treadwheel : it would be 
 - uniform of course. 
 
 2965. Would it not be possible to proportion the labour of the treadwheel by 
 hours as well as by mechanical springs or other contrivances ? 
 
 Yes, it could be done certainly. 
 
 2960. Would you not in that case secure much greater certainty of punish- 
 ment than you possibly could by mat making ?• 
 
 No, I think not ; nor under any circumstances do I think you would. 
 
 2967. Have you not stated already in evidence, that on increasing the food 
 for the prisoners, 30U have fountl that they worked with much greater will, and 
 produced a great many more mats ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2968. Does net that show that they were working very much below their 
 strength ? 
 
 It shows that they were working very much below their abihty, l)ut not their 
 strength. The fact of their doing more work necessitated their having more 
 food ; the diet that is given in the scale before your Lordships, is givt-n on the 
 lowest scale, not on the highest. If men do more work, they exercise their 
 physical powers more, and they require more food. Those men had more food, 
 and they kept up to their standard of weight ; but if they had done that work 
 which 1 explained to your Lordships without havipg more to eat, they would 
 have fallen off in weight materially. 
 
 2969. Are the Committee to understand that that increase in the number of 
 mats made was simply attributable to the increase of diet, and not to the induce- 
 ment which was held out to the men to work r 
 
 The increase of diet was the inducement. 
 
 2970. Was it on the strength of that food that they made the mats, or was 
 it from the moral bribe which you held out ? 
 
 It was from the moral bribe ; but the food was required in consequence of 
 their strength decreasing from their greater exertions. 
 
 2971. Is there a fixed dietary in the Industrial Home which is attached to the 
 prison ? 
 
 No, it is not attached to the prison at all ; it is exactly the same as any 
 (37. 9.) M M common
 
 2/4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Shepherd, Esq. common factory, the only difference being, that the men are not allowed to leave 
 
 , '. ~ ^„ the establishment till 9 o'clock at nisrht, and instruction is given to them in the 
 2lst April 1603, 
 
 2972. Mai'quess of Salishury.'] May they have what food they like ? 
 Yes, they may have any food they like. 
 
 2973. Have they more food there than they got in prison ? 
 Yes, they have. 
 
 2974. Have you any means of estimating to what extent it is greater in 
 amount r 
 
 No, I have not, except so far as this, that when men first go there and can- 
 not earn enough to keep themselves, as many cannot, say, for three weeks, 
 perhaps, they have food given them at about the same ratio as the food of the 
 prison ; and I find that they are very anxious, very soon indeed, to find their 
 own food : the moment they can earn enough to pay their own expenses they 
 find their own food ; they remain on the prison ratio no lonaer than they can 
 help. 
 
 2q7.). Earl Cathcart.] Is the use of beer or tobacco, or both, allowed in the 
 Industrial Home ? 
 
 Yes, a man can take beer there, but he does not smoke inside the place, or 
 drink ; it is just the same as inside a factory. 
 
 20/6. Chainnan.~\ Do you object to the use of the crank in the same way 
 as you do to the treadwheel? 
 
 Yes : I object to it on account of what I consider the bad effect which all 
 forced labour of that description has. 
 
 2977. Whether the crank be applied to productive purposes or to unpro- 
 ductive ? 
 
 Yes. I am anxious that men should, if possible, by their time in prison not 
 detest laboia- — that when they go out of doors it should come to them na- 
 turally ; and 1 feel that I could not in any way sanction a labour that would 
 make it detestable to them. 
 
 2978. Do you think that the use of the treadwheel or the crank is degrad- 
 ing to a man 't 
 
 1 sliould think so. I know nothing of the crank labour ; we never had a 
 machine, but I judge that they would feel it so. 
 
 2979. Do you believe that they would feel the treadwheel with which you 
 were cognisant as an irritating punishment ? 
 
 Yes, 1 do. 
 
 2980. Have the prisoners ever expressed that feeling ? 
 
 There is an impression on my mind that such has been the case, but I 
 could not enter into any details upon the point ; it is nearly 20 years ago since 
 it was given up. 
 
 298 ! . Would you object to the use of tlie crank if it was applied to the pump- 
 ing of water ? 
 
 If I could in any way find out that such a labour for very short sentences 
 would be very deterring, it would really take away a great i)art of my objec- 
 tion, if I could truly satisfy myself that such was the case for short periods. 
 
 2982. Duke of Richmond.] You stated, did you not, that one objection which 
 you had to the use of the treadwheel was, that it reduced the prisoners so much 
 in weight? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2983. Then, in another answer, you stated, did you not, that when they 
 made an excessive quantity of mats, you were obliged to increase their food r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 29S4. Would not the same course be practicable with regard to the tread- 
 wheel as you have pursued with regard to the mats — namely, that if 30U found 
 the prisoners reduced too much by "work on the treadwheel, you would increase 
 
 their
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 275 
 
 their food in the same manner as you do when they increase the number of E. Shepherd, Esq. 
 mats which they make r ~ 
 
 Yes, that would be necessarily so ; but the result would not be the same. In ^ ' ^'" ' ^* 
 the one case, it does not do away with their detestation of forced labour of that 
 sort ; but in the other case it encourages habits of industry, and makes them feel 
 the A'alue of natural labour in contradistinction to forced labour. 
 
 j()8> Would not that have reference merely to the reformatory jiart of 
 punishment, and not to the deterring part ? 
 Yes, it would, certainly. 
 
 29S6. "\'ou have divided the question of punishment into two classes, one 
 deterring and the other reformatory ; would not the treadwheel have a more 
 deterring effect upon prisoners than mat-making? 
 
 I have not found it so. 
 
 2987. Earl of Dudley. 1 How many years is it since you have tried the expe- 
 riment ? 
 
 It nuist be approaching 20 years. 
 
 298S. DuVe oi Richmond.'] You object to the treadwheel because you say it 
 makes prisoners, when they go out of prison, detest labour? 
 Yes. 
 
 2q8q. Will you explain to the Committee in what way it makes them detest 
 labour r Supposing a man is sentenced to three weeks' hard labour on the tread- 
 wheel, how would that make him detest labour when he went out of prison, 
 and what labour would it make him detest r 
 
 The observations which 1 have made to your Lordships referred in a great 
 measure to long sentences, in which habits are formed. The habit of industry, 
 the habit of cleanliness, the habit of early rising', and all good habits of that sort, 
 when formed, very frequently continue ; and the liabit of industry, when formed, 
 makes labour pleasant instead of irksome to a n:an after he goes out of prison. 
 I conceive that the treadwheellabour will make any labour irksome to him; he 
 w(juld fl)- from the one extreme immediately to the other extreme of idleness. 
 
 2990. But there is, surely, in the treadwheel labour nothing that is contrary 
 either to habits of cleanliness or habits of early rising ? 
 
 No ; I am speaking generally of habits being formed. 
 
 2991. You have not quite answered my question; what sort of labour and 
 in what manner would the treadwheel have the effect of making a jirisoner 
 detest, in the case of long-sentence prisoners, for instance r 
 
 Any monotonous forced labour of that kind would have that tendency. 
 
 2902. In what way would it make a man detest labour out of doors, and 
 what labour would it make him detest ? 
 
 I can only say that my impression is that it would have that tendency 
 without exactly explaining in what manner it would act. 
 
 299.^ Earl of J5?/(7c.] Do not you think it might so happen that productive 
 labour, on his coming out of prison, might be positively a relief and be 
 palatalile to him after a course of treadwheel unproductive labour r 
 
 ( think not. 
 
 291)4. Duke of Jlklnntmd.'] Take the case of an agricultural labourer who 
 had been at the plough or working on a farm, and had committed an offence 
 for which he was sentenced to six months' hard labour, and worked out his 
 sentence on the treadwheel : do you imagine that at the expiration of that 
 six months, when that man was discharged and he would naturally go to seek 
 his former employment, the labour of an agricidtural labourer would become 
 irksome to him because he had been six months upon the treadwheel ? 
 
 The chiss ot persons that you would have more especially to deal with in 
 prisons would be old offenders, rogues, vagabonds, and tramps ; they are a 
 class of persons that you would be more anxious t(J affect than agricultural 
 labourers; and with regard to that class of persons, with whom you would 
 certainly want to deal more stringently, I have no doubt that it would have a 
 bad effect, for I cannot help feeling that they would immediately fly to the 
 other extreme. 
 
 (37. 9.) M M 2 2995. Am
 
 2/6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Shepherd. Esq. -'QOS- Am I to gather from youj that your answer as to the inefficiency of 
 — — the treadwiieel would apply more to old offenders and rogues and vagabonds 
 
 2 1st, April 186 3. ^-^^^^^ ^^ ^^j^^^. fjescriptions of persons / 
 
 Yes, it would. 
 
 •jggo. r\nd that you would prefer giving to old otFenders, and rogues and 
 vagabonds, the occupation of mat-making to giving them the treadwheel ? 
 Yes. I prefer it for every one; not only for old offenders, but for all prisoners. 
 
 ■-'997. But when I asked you whether, in the case of an agricultural labourer 
 who had been sentenced to six months' hard labour, and had served it on the 
 treadwheel, you thouglit that the fact of his having been on the treadwheel 
 would make him detest the labour to which he returned, I imderstood you to 
 say tliat your answer applied more to old offenders, and rogues and vagabonds, 
 than to ])ri.-oners from the class of agricultural lal)ourers ? 
 
 I should imagine that, with regard to old offenders, they would detest labour, 
 and I do believe it would be the case with regard to agricultural labourers also ; 
 because I cannot help feeling that the character of the labour that is given to 
 them would not be favourable to their returning to any useful employment. 
 
 21198. With regard to those old offenders, rogues and vagabonds, it would 
 scarcely be a return, because their former employment could scarcely be called 
 useful ? 
 
 No ; but I was dividing \\\y observation into two parts. 
 
 •i9()9. You told us that you object to the treadwheel also, on account of its 
 inequality, as it affected different men in different ways : how do you tind out 
 the capacity of the prisoners for making mats when they come into the pri-on ? 
 Say that you have a dozen men sentenced, and they come under your care on 
 any one day, and some of them sentenced for short sentences (some three 
 weeks, some six weeks, and some two months), how do you find out vvliat their 
 capacity is ? 
 
 Some descriptions of mats require little more than manual labour, some 
 require some amount of ingenuity of mind, and the men are apportioned to the 
 sort of work that would be required. 
 
 3000. But how do you apportion them ; how do \()u find out their capacity .- 
 By the j)risoner's appearance, in the first .place, and afterwards by examina- 
 tion. 
 
 .:>' 
 
 500 ! . One class of mats, you say, requires little more than manual labour ; 
 what description of labour does it require ? 
 The labour of the fingers. 
 
 3002. Then some men might be much more apt with their fingers than 
 others, might they not ? 
 
 Certainly ; I have stated that there is a mininmni of six required, but some 
 prisoners make JO. 
 
 3003. One man may be very apt with his fingers, and another man may be 
 exceedingly clumsy : how soon do you find out which is the m^in who is chnnsy 
 and which is the man who is apt ; l)ecause the one mat which, you tell us, 
 requires very little manual labour, would, to the man who is very clever with 
 his fingers, probablv be no trouble, whereas to a man who had been driving a 
 plough all his life, and is very clumsy with his fingers, it might be very great 
 labour r 
 
 The daily o])seivation, by myself and others, u])on such great numbers soon 
 teaches us to apportion thework to the proper parties. 
 
 3004. Have you ever any prisoners come in who deceive you? 
 Yes. 
 
 3005. Is it easy to detect deception in that particular branch of mat- 
 
 malimg? 
 
 1 think it is -, a man is soon detected. 
 
 3006. Earl of Dudle)/.] You divided the punishment in gaol, just now, into 
 two classes, deterrent and reformatory : do you exclude the punishing element 
 altogether ? 
 
 No; the deterrent element is punishment. 
 
 ■^007. You
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 277 
 
 3007. You do not call inniishinent deterrent: the deterrent effect has regard 
 to the next crime, and not to the one which has been committed ? 
 
 I do mean "deterrent" by "punishment." 
 
 3008. I ask you this very distinctly, because at the present day there is a 
 very great distinction made between the two, and, in fact, a very large portion 
 of society would do away with punishment altogether : do you mean that the 
 deterrent effect would be produced upon the prisoner himself, or upon others 
 who are likely to f^dl into the same crime ? 
 
 I merely refer to the prisoner himself, and not to the effect of the punishment 
 upon persons who have never experienced it. 
 
 3009. You admit tlie necessity for punishing a man for what he ha^ done 
 against society, with a hope that he will be deterred from doing it for the 
 future ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3010. Do you consider that such i)unishment as you give in your gaol is 
 deterring r 
 
 I have before me, which I am going to put before your Lordships, a table, 
 showing the number of criminals to the population in all the English counties. 
 The discipline at Wakefield is pretty much the same as has been pursued for a 
 very long time ; the prison at Wakefield takes in all the prisoners that are 
 committed from the West Riding, with the exception of the borough of Leeds, 
 where they have a separate jurisdiction and prison. I cannot help thinking 
 that the position in which the West Riding stands, with regard to criminality, 
 is a favourable one, and so favourable that some part of it must be due to the 
 prison discipline. There are, as your Lordships know, 40 counties in England. 
 For the sake of illustrating this, I have divided Yorkshire into three parts, 
 as they are quite separate and distinct. The counties in which there is the 
 smallest proportion of criminals to the population, are Cuml)erland, Cornwall, 
 Huntingdon, Suffolk, Bedford, Wilts, and Rutland. Then comes the eighth, 
 the West Riding of the county of Yorkshire. The ratio of criminals in the 
 "West Riding to the population, in 1861, is one prisoner to every 301 of the in- 
 habitants ; the proportion in all England is one prisoner to every 169. I will 
 hand in this table, which may, perhaps, be interesting to your Lordships on 
 some other inquiry. 
 
 E. S/,rpl/erd, Esq. 
 2 1 St Apiil 1^63. 
 
 The same is delivered in, and is as follows : — 
 
 Table (C.) 
 
 Showing the Number of Criminals to the Population in all the English Counties. 
 
 COUNTY. 
 
 1. Cumberland --.... 
 
 2. Cornwall 
 
 3. Huntingdon --.... 
 
 4. Suffolk 
 
 5. Bedford ------- 
 
 6. Wilts 
 
 7. Rulland 
 
 8. West Riding, excluding the borough of Leeds t 
 
 9. Cambridge --.... 
 
 10. North Riding - - . . 
 
 11. Buekinnliam ----.. 
 
 12. Homer^^et - ---._. 
 
 13. Leicester -----. 
 
 14. Derby 
 
 Population. 
 
 205,276 
 369,390 
 64,250 
 337,070 
 135,287 
 
 249.3 1 1 
 21,861 
 
 1,300,631 
 176,016 
 245,154 
 1 (".7,993 
 444,873 
 
 237.4 1 2 
 339,327 
 
 Criminals, 
 
 exclusive of 
 
 Debtors. 
 
 468 
 890 
 175 
 956 
 408 
 777 
 69 
 
 4,321 
 615 
 862 
 616 
 
 1,738 
 935 
 
 1,382 
 
 Ratio of 
 
 Criminals 
 
 to Population. 
 
 lo 438-6 
 41o- 
 367-1 
 362-5 
 331-5 
 320-8 
 316-8 
 30'- 
 286-2 
 284-4 
 272-7 
 255-9 
 253-9 
 245-5 
 
 * Taken from Population Return for 1861. 
 
 : The bo 
 jnimitted. 
 
 (37. 9.) 
 
 t Taken from Judicial .'statistics for 18C1. 
 conrnTiUed"™"^'' ""^ "^'"^' ^'"^ "" '"P^"""'" jurisdiction, and a prison, .0 which offenders are 
 
 M M 3
 
 278 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. S/icpherd, Esq. 
 2ist April 1863. 
 
 
 
 Criminals, 
 
 Proportion of 
 
 COUNTY. 
 
 Population. 
 
 exclusive of 
 
 Criminals 
 
 
 » 
 
 Debtors. 
 
 t 
 
 to Population. 
 
 15. Lincoln -------- 
 
 412,246 
 
 1,737 
 
 1 to 237-3 
 
 16. Westmoreland- ------ 
 
 60,817 
 
 259 
 
 234-8 
 
 17. Sussex ..---.-- 
 
 363,73-5 
 
 1,575 
 
 230-9 
 
 18. Dorset 
 
 188,789 
 
 851 
 
 221-8 
 
 19. Northampton 
 
 227,704 
 
 1,027 
 
 •221-7 
 
 20. Durham 
 
 508,606 
 
 2,324 
 
 218 8 
 
 21. Essex 
 
 404,851 
 
 1,855 
 
 218-2 
 
 22. Worcester ------- 
 
 3117,397 
 
 1,461 
 
 210-4 
 
 23. Oxford - - 
 
 170,944 
 
 816 
 
 209-4 
 
 24. Hereford 
 
 173,280 
 
 828 
 
 200-2 
 
 25. Devon .------. 
 
 584,373 
 
 2,812 
 
 207-8 
 
 26. Berks 
 
 176,256 
 
 852 
 
 206-8 
 
 27. Norfolk 
 
 434,798 
 
 2,132 
 
 2039 
 
 28. Salop 
 
 240,959 
 
 1,186 
 
 •203-1 
 
 29. Monmouth 
 
 174,033 
 
 865 
 
 201-8 
 
 30. Warwick 
 
 561,855 
 
 2,797 
 
 200-8 
 
 31. Chester 
 
 5116,428 
 
 2.521 
 
 200-4 
 
 32. Hereford 
 
 123,712 
 
 641 
 
 193- 
 
 33. Nottinijham ------- 
 
 293,867 
 
 1,613 
 
 182-1 
 
 34. Staftbrd 
 
 746,943 
 
 4,138 
 
 180-5 
 
 35. Gloucester 
 
 485,770 
 
 2,790 
 
 174-1 
 
 36. Kent 
 
 733,887 
 
 4,338 
 
 1691 
 
 37. Northumberland --,.-. 
 
 343,025 
 
 2,22'J 
 
 154- 
 
 38. East Riding ------- 
 
 240,227 
 
 1,661 
 
 144-6 
 
 39. Southampton ------- 
 
 481,815 
 
 3,393 
 
 142- 
 
 40. Lancaster 
 
 2,429,440 
 
 18,952 
 
 128-2 
 
 4 1 . Surrey -------- 
 
 831,093 
 
 6,744 
 
 123-2 
 
 42. Middlesex 
 
 2,206:485 
 
 22,638 
 
 97-4 
 
 England - 
 
 18,954,444 
 
 111,966 
 
 169-2 
 
 England and Wales - - - - - 
 
 20,066,224 
 
 115,647 
 
 173-5 
 
 The Population and Criminals of Yorkshire are shown under the throe Ridings. 
 * Taken from Population Return for 1861. f Taken from Judicial Statistics for 1801. 
 
 Riding? 
 
 30 1 1 . Earl of Ducic] What large manufacturing towns have you in the West 
 
 (ling? 
 
 Sheffield, Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, and Wakefield. 
 
 .--012. So that a large amount of your population is congregated in masses r 
 Yes, thev are congregated in masses ; and, generally speaking, those that are 
 in larsre towns are of the most criminal class. 
 
 3013. Chairman.'] You have stated, have you not, that the prisoners enjoy 
 from an hour to an hour and a half of exercise each day r 
 
 The average is an hour and a half. 
 
 3014. That exercise, of course, is given inasmuch as the hard labour in 
 Wakefield consists of sedentary occupation ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 301 5. Assuming tl.at the hard labour was on the treadwheel or on the crank, 
 I presume that you would not feel it incumbe.tt upon you to order that exercise 1 
 
 No we did not have exercise when we had the treadwheel for tliat class of 
 prisoners ; there was never any great number of that class ; there were only 40 
 of such prisoners in prison at any tim(^ 
 
 3016. What is the nature of the exercise which you allow ? „ . . 
 Walking in a large open space of about an acri% 5(5 prisoners walking in 
 
 three circles, and three officers walking the reverse way. 
 
 3017. Do the prisoners wear masks ? 
 No. 
 
 3018. Did thev ever do so! 
 Yes. 
 
 3019- 
 
 On
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 2/9 
 
 30 ]g. On what ground did )'ou abolish them ? E, Shepherd, Esq. 
 
 In the West fliding no prisoners ever wore masks but the convicts- ,—7 „^ 
 
 ° ^ 21st April 1863. 
 
 3020. Are you of opinion that the prisoners recognise each other during this 
 exercise r 
 
 Yes, and they did in masks. 
 
 3021. Are you of opinion that, inasmuch as they recognise each other during 
 exercise, any communication passes betvFeen prisoner and prisoner ? 
 
 There is communication, because we find it out ; but I beUeve that there is 
 no communication to any hurtful extent but what is found out. I presume 
 it is possible for communication to take place, because we may not find it aU 
 out. 
 
 qO'22. Do vou believe that one half of the cases of communication which go 
 on between prisoner and prisoner are reported to you? 
 Yes ; I should think 8 out of 10. 
 
 3023. Is the space in which the men are exercised a yard, or is it a field, or 
 shrubbery ? 
 
 It is a large open space with grass, except in the place where the prisoners 
 walk, which is of flags. 
 
 3024. Can you state what is the time and what are the circumstances under 
 which the greatest amount of communication, so far as you are aware of, goes 
 on ; is it at the time of exercise ? 
 
 I think it is during the exercise. 
 
 3025. Are you aware of communications passing in chapel? 
 Yes, sometimes. 
 
 3026. Are you aware of communications passing in school? 
 Yes, sometimes. 
 
 3027. Do you believe that partitions would have the effect of preventing 
 that ? 
 
 I believe just the contrary. We took tliem down on that very ground, 
 because the communication was, at that time, twenty times as much as it is 
 now. 
 
 30ii8. On what do 3'ou ground that belief? 
 
 From statements made to us by prisoners, and from the defective observation 
 it w'as impossible to have a keen inspection of the prisoners at the time ; sitting 
 down or standing u|) makes a great diflference in their height, and prisoners 
 have modes of communication through crevices, under the doors or other ways, 
 and knocking, and little communications of various kinds, that it was impos- 
 sible to detect them in those cases. I think there was no greater mistake ever 
 made than to have separate partitions in the chapel. 
 
 3029. Are you aware whether the prisoners prefer the absence of partitions 
 to their existence r 
 
 Yes, I know they prefer it ; because, in the partitions at Wakefield, we had 
 fi-equently to take them out of the chapel fainting, on account of the imperfect 
 ventilation that must necessarily arise in those close places. 
 
 3030. Do you know whether the prisoners like the exercise in the open 
 air ? 
 
 Yes, very much. 
 
 3031. Would it be the withdrawal of a great privilege if they were deprived 
 of it ? 
 
 Very great punishment indeed. That is one of the subjects I have to bring 
 before your Lordships in the way of discipline. 
 
 3032. Are the Committee to understand generally, from all that you have 
 stateil to-day, that you disapprove of that which some witnesses have called the 
 penal and irksome element in prison discipline r 
 
 I do not disapprove of the irksome element at all ; but the irksome element 
 does not necessarily include the treadwhecl or crank labour. I can mention an 
 irksome element which has a uuich greater effect 1 think than that. 
 
 (37- 9.) M M 4 3033. Would
 
 280 mintjTes of evidence taken before the 
 
 B. Shepherd, E.<^q. 3033- "^Voulcl you state to the Committee that which you consider to be the 
 2isiAmT)gf3 ^^''!"^^^.^' t'le most stringent, and most irksome labour which is inflicted in 
 ' ■ ^^ aketicld, distinguishing what is liardest and what is most irksome .' 
 
 The hardest is making mats ; the most irksome labour would be teasing cocoa 
 fibre, which is commonly calkd oalium picking ; we have no picking oakum, but 
 it answers to that in common parlance. 
 
 3034. In the case of short sentences, VThich do you apply? 
 Picking oakum. 
 
 3035. For how many hours continuously are they employed? 
 
 Those men are employed longer hours than the generality of them, for they 
 do not go to school, and they do not go to exercise, in the case of many of those 
 who are sentenced for short periods. 
 
 3036. Practically, for how many hours continuously does a short-sentenced 
 prisoner work at picking oakum ? 
 
 Five liours continuously. 
 
 3037. Is that the total amount during the course of the day. 
 No, it is double that; they work 10 hours. 
 
 3038. And what are the number of pounds which are the result of those 10 
 hours? 
 
 As we have not really picking oakum, the employment is not so uniform and 
 cannot be so easily measured ; sometimes it amounts to 20 lbs., and sometimes to 
 not above 3 lbs. ; it is opening a very hard ts\ isted strand, and it is not uniform in 
 the strand. If the strand is very hard twisted indeed, it could not be more 
 than 3 lbs. ; if it is loosely twisted it might be 20 lbs. 
 
 3039. Practically, you have no piecework in the case of picking oakum, 
 which you exact from every prisoner, without allowing him to make any de- 
 duction ? 
 
 Supposing a man does less than 6 lbs., he is reported to me, and then I judge 
 by the nature of his employment whether, in my opinion, he could do more or 
 less. 
 
 3040. Is that rule explained to the prisoners ? 
 
 Yes, it is. 
 
 304 1 . Do you find that many do more than six pounds .^ 
 
 Yes ; many do 20 ; but then it is a rather lighter kind, pex'haps. 
 
 3042. Do you find that, in fact, the prisoners do more than they are required 
 to do ? 
 
 Yes, some do ; I should think that 10 per cent., perhaps, do more than they 
 are required to do. 
 
 3043. Are the Committee to understand that when a short-sentenced pri- 
 soner is ])laced in his cell, and is required to pick oakum, it is explained to him 
 that 6 lbs. is the minimum amount which he is required to pick, and that he 
 sometimes produces as many as 20 lbs. ? 
 
 Yes ; but it ought to be explained that the 20 lbs. is sometimes much easier 
 to do than the lbs. required ; what we have to do is not so uniform as 
 oakum. 
 
 3044. Is lbs., and 6 lbs, alone, the amount which is exacted from 
 every one ? 
 
 Ko, it is not ; I was obliged to give the Committee some idea about it, but 
 six is not the only amount ; it depends entirely upon the nature of the work. 
 
 304.5. Duke of Richmond.^ Short-sentenced prisoners are sentenced, are 
 they not, to what is conniionly called oakum picking. 
 Yes, as a I'ule, but not all. 
 
 3046. When a man commences ujion that hard labour, as it is called, his 
 task is given him in the morning, I conclude? 
 
 Yes, it is given him once a-day. 
 
 3047. In the morning? 
 
 It is given him at four o'clock in the afternoon. 
 
 3048. That
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 281 
 
 3048. That is to say, a prisoner delivered into your charge at five o'clock in E, Shepherd, Esq. 
 
 the afternoon would have his oakum delivered to him at four o'clock the next ~" ,^ 
 
 r^ - 2 let April 1863. 
 
 afternoon 1 ______ 
 
 A prisoner for the first 24 hours is not sent into the regular prison ; he is 
 
 confined in a separate part ; he comes into the prison at two o'clock every day, 
 
 and at four o'clock he would have his work given to him. 
 
 3049. In fact, his sentence commences at four o'clock in the afternoon ; he 
 has an amount of oakum which he is to work at from four o'clock one afternoon 
 to four o'clock the next afternoon ? 
 
 Exactly ; and according to the difficulty or otherwise of making it, it is 
 weighed out to him ; every man's work is weighed once a-day. 
 
 3050. Is he told, when it is weighed out to him, how much he must return? 
 No ; he has to return the whole of it. 
 
 3051. When it is weighed out to him, you may be giving him to do a great 
 deal more than that which you imagine you are giving him if it works up much 
 more easily ? 
 
 It is weighed out according to the requirement in labour ; the manager 
 judges whether it is easy or difficult. 
 
 3052. When the manager gives it him, does he know whether that man will 
 be able to produce 6 lbs. or 20 lbs. ? 
 
 Yes, he knows whether 6 lbs. ought to be his task, or 20 lbs., or less than 6 lbs. 
 sometimes. 
 
 3053. Does he judge from the state of the strand when he gives it to him? 
 Yes, he does. 
 
 3054. It would be equally difficult to produce 6 lbs. or 20 lbs., as the strand 
 is difficult ? 
 
 Yes, that is what I mean. 
 
 3055. That would depend, of course, as in mat-making, upon the aptitude of 
 the man, would it not r 
 
 Yes, it would ; but not exactly to the same extent. 
 
 3056. Lord Wensleydale.'] Are the Committee to understand from that that 
 you make no difference between those who are convicted and sentenced to hard 
 labour and those who are not ? 
 
 I have never used such a term as would convey that ; we do make a difference. 
 The difference with regard to those persons who are not sentenced to hard 
 labour would be, that they are allowed to work at employments that cannot be 
 measured, and that they are sent out to work more in association than 
 others. 
 
 3057. They are all made to labour? 
 
 Yes ; every man is made to labour, except he is in prison waiting for 
 trial. 
 
 30.') 8. Earl oi Ducie.'] You exercise a considerable amount of discretion, do 
 you not, in apportioning the amount of labour ? 
 
 Yes ; it is absolutely necessary to do so in every employment of that sort. 
 
 3059. Therefore the proper conduct of the prison depends entirely upon the 
 activity and discretion of the manager and governor ? 
 
 Yes, it does. 
 
 3060. You think that no set of rules would supply the place of an active 
 governor ? 
 
 I fear not. I have seen cases where rules are made stringent, and there has 
 always been some great difficulty about them. Take, for instance, the case of 
 a rule of this sort. A prisoner can have his food weighed ; the effect of tliat 
 is, that numl)ers of them have their food weighed three times a day for a year 
 together. Many of them would say, " I will have my food weighed," without 
 looking at it or anything else. There is great difficulty in laying down special 
 rules. 
 
 3061 . Earl of Romncy.'] Is it not very difficult for a court to pass a sentence, 
 (37. 9.) N N when
 
 282 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ^. Shepherd, Esq. when it has not the least know ledge or guess what the effect of it will 
 
 T Rfi ^^^ 
 
 ^ "* ^" '^' The effect, as far as Wakefield is concerned, is that all men are sentenced to 
 labour, hard or otherwise, according to the sentence. 
 
 3062. Chainnan.'] Are not the terms of the sentence always that if such and 
 such a prisoner is sentenced to labour, he should be sentenced to hard labour 
 if labour is included in the sentence at all ? 
 
 Yes; and as a rule between 80 and 90 men out of every 100 are sentenced 
 to hard labour. 
 
 3063. But in your opinion the hardest labour which the prison at Wake- 
 field imposes, is mat making ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3064. You are conversant, of course, more or less with the reports that have 
 been issued at different times on the subject of prison discipline ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 306,5. In 1835, the Committee of the House of Lords reported on the ques- 
 tion of prison discipline, and they imply throughout their report that hard 
 labour did form a part of prison discipline ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3066. Are you of opinion that when they used the term " hard labour," 
 they mainly used it with regard to the treadwheel? 
 
 I should almost gather that they did, but I cannot say what their Lordships 
 may mean. I should perhaps think it possible that it might be so. 
 
 3067. You are acquainted also, no doubt, with the Committee of the House 
 of Lords of 1847? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3068. And hard labour there again forms a part of their recommenda- 
 tion ? 
 
 It does. 
 
 3069. Are you of opinion that in the minds of that Committee hard labour 
 meant to imply work on the ti-eadwheel ? 
 
 I believe that it did in that case, or the crank. 
 
 3070. You are aware, also, are you not, of the Committee of the House of 
 Commons in 1 850 ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3071 . And that hard labour formed a very prominent part of the recommend- 
 ation of tliat Committee ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3072. Are you of opinion that the hard labour implied the treadwheel and 
 the crank ? 
 
 I think it specially did in that case. 
 
 3.73. And in the Gaol Act of the 4th of George the Fourth, chap. 64, wliere 
 it is stated, " that due pro%'ision shall be made in every prison for the enforce- 
 ment of hard labour in the case of such prisoners as may be sentenced thereto ;" 
 do you believe that it was in the mind of the Legislature at that time that hard 
 labour implied the treadwheel? 
 
 1 should think it was not at that time in the minds of the Legislature. If I 
 remember rightly, the words of the clause are, " That due provision shall be 
 made in every prison for the enforcement of hard labour in the case of such 
 prisoners as may be sentenced thei-eto." 
 
 3074. Lord Wenski/dale.] That would show that some instrument should be 
 prepared? 
 
 I do not think so. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to read the whole 
 of it through : " That due provision shall be made in every prison for the 
 enforcement of hard labour in the cases of such prisoners as may be sentenced 
 thereto, and for the employment of otiier prisoners. The means of hard labour 
 shall be provided, and the materials requisite for the employment of prisoners 
 
 shall
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 283 
 
 shall be purchased, under such regulations as may be made for that purpose by E. Shepherd, Egq> 
 
 the justices." 21st ATFiSea. 
 
 3075. Earl of DncUei/.'] That does not bear out the construction that you 
 
 were trying to put upon it : it says that means of hard labour shall be found in 
 
 each prison, and that materials for industrial occupation shall be purchased for 
 the employment of prisoners r 
 
 There is a subsequent Act which refers to descriptions of hard labour other 
 than the treadwheel. 
 
 3076. Chairman^ Do you not believe, from the words of that Act of the 
 4th of George the Fourth, by hard labour, the labour of the treadwheel was 
 intended r 
 
 1 do not indeed, for I think that the treadwheel was very little known in that 
 day when that Act was passed. 
 
 3077. Earl oi Dudley.] Has not the use of the treadwheel, and perhaps of 
 the crank also, been a subject of frequent discussion by the magistrates of the 
 West Riding ; has not it been a moot question in that part of the county ? 
 
 The crank was never brought before the Adsiting justices but once. I was 
 sent by order of our visiting justices to Leicester, and when I came back I made 
 a report upon the subject of the crank. I know that it was decidedly stated 
 that it should not be aclopred in Wakefield. 
 
 3078. Lord Wensleydale.'] You have stated, have you not, that there never 
 was any order upon that subject. 
 
 No. 
 
 3079. Earl of Dudley.'] Therefore the visiting magistrates have taken upon 
 themselves, in the exercise of their discretion, to put on one side the sentence 
 of hard labour, as given by courts of law ? 
 
 Yes, if your Lordship will consider the hard labour to mean the treadwheel 
 only. 
 
 3080. I think you have stated in your evidence that mat making could not 
 be called hai d labour. 
 
 I said that it was hard labour in the way that they do it. 
 
 3081. You have shown us that you can get a certain proportion of mats made 
 on a small diet, and a certain greater proportion on an increased diet, which 
 you call a moral brilie ; and that when those same men are out of prison working 
 for themselves, employing 2 I hours more per day, they can make a very largely 
 increased number if they choose ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3082. Therefore it is fair to say from that that you cannot get hard labour 
 out of them if they are not disposed to give it, and you have said that some 
 men will do more work than others ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3083. Rut that you cannot compel hard labour where a man will not give it ? 
 We cannot compel a man to do so much as he does do out of doors. 
 
 3084. But you cannot compel a man to give you what honestly would be 
 called a hard day's labour, or hard labour, such as is meant when a sentence is 
 passed upon the prisoner ? 
 
 With regard to the West Riding, the magistrates all know that a sentence 
 passed upon a prisoner of hard labour means, that he shall work at an employ- 
 ment of that kind in prison. 
 
 30 85. Is it not in the power of the governor of the gaol to reduce the 
 standard of hard labour as low as he likes f 
 
 I believe that is in the discretion of the governor of the prison. 
 
 3086. Could you answer that question distinctly r 
 1 could not do that. 
 
 3087. Cannot the governor of a gaol lower the standard of the industrial 
 occupation as low as he hkes ? 
 
 Not without authority from the justices. 
 
 (37. 9.) N N 2 3088. We
 
 284 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 £. Shepherd, Esq. 3088. We are supposing that the justices are agreed with him ; can he do 
 
 — 7- so, or can he not? 
 
 .sjst April 1863. Yes, I beUeve he can, supposing the justices are agreed with him. 
 
 3089. Cannot the surgeon raise the diet of the prisoner as high as he hkes : 
 Yes. 
 
 3090. Chairman.'] Reverting to my previous question, I refer you now to the 
 2d and 3rd of the Queen, chapter 56 ; under the 5th clause you will find the 
 different classes into which prisoners are to be divided, and the third class con- 
 tains prisoners convicted and sentenced to hard labour. Now, I ask you 
 whether in your opinion it was in the mind of the Legislature when those words 
 were used, that hard labour implied the treadwheel ? 
 
 I should not think that it was in the minds of the Legislature at that time. 
 
 3091. Lord Wensleydale.] Do you not think they intended it to imply some- 
 thing analogous to the treadwheel ? 
 
 Of course. 
 
 3092. Chairman.'] You believe that the term "hard labour " is appHcable to 
 any sort of employment ? 
 
 Yes, I do. 
 
 3093. On what ground was it, then, that in the Act of the 4th of George the 
 Fourth, " hard labour " and " employment " were specified as two descriptions 
 of punishment upon the prisoners ? 
 
 I think that there are other objects besides work, with regard to which a 
 man is sentenced to hard labour or not to hard labour ; there is a difference in 
 the prison treatment, and there are other things that the sentence of hard 
 labour refers to besides actual employment. 
 
 3094. You have stated to the Committee that in your belief the Committee 
 of 1835, the Committee of 1847, and the Committee of 1850, all imphed the 
 use of the treadwheel when they employed the words " hard labour," but that 
 the Act of the 2d and 3rd of the Queen, did not necessarily imply the tread- 
 wheel ? 
 
 I stated that I did not know that the Legislature meant those words to 
 imply the treadwheel or the crank, although I think that the Committee might 
 have done so. The Act of Parliament authorising separate confinement is a 
 later Act than that, and certainly it was never intended that all the cells should 
 be fitted up with cranks. 
 
 3095. Are you aware of the course that is pursued generally in the gaol at 
 Reading? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3096. Are you aware that their self-instruction, as it is termed, is made the 
 basis of the system ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3097. And that hard labour is excluded r 
 Yes. 
 
 3098. Are you of opinion that a system of which self-instruction forms the 
 basis, is really carrying out the idea and intentions of the Legislatui-e, so far 
 as they can be gathered from the Committees, and from the Acts of Parlia- 
 ment ? 
 
 I do not believe that at Reading they carry out the intention of the Legisla- 
 ture, or of the Act of Parhament, because I think that the Act has decided 
 that the prisoners shall have employment in separate cells, if I remember 
 rightly. 
 
 3099. But do you consider the work that you give in the prison at Wake- 
 field, is such Avork as was intended by the Act of Parliament ? 
 
 1 do not think that it is contrary to it. 
 
 3100. Earl of Dttdlei).] Did 1 not correctly understand you to state that the 
 Wakefield justices have used their own discretion in doing anything that they 
 thought they could ;is to liard labour within the meaning of the Act ? 
 
 Yes, I think they have done so. 
 
 3101. Lord
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 285 
 
 3101. J^vd We/!s/eyda/c.] Has that been done silently without any positive E. Shepherd, Esq, 
 order or agreement amongst them all ? ~~ 
 
 It was done on agreement amongst the whole body of visiting magistrates. P" ^ ^' 
 
 3102. 'NA'as it done without any regular meeting for the purpose of con- 
 sidering whether it was or was not hard labour ? 
 
 Yes, it was done without a regular meeting. 
 
 3103. 'E&rX oi Dudley. '\ Do you think that that is a discretion which the 
 magistrates have ? 
 
 Yes, 1 think it is. 
 
 3104. C/iair7nan.] I understand fiom your former evidence that you disap- 
 prove of corporal punishmrut, except lor one particular offence, which is 
 striking an otKcer ? 
 
 Ves ; I think that I ought to qualify it a little in this way. I stated that the 
 magistrates were all opposed to flogging, except for that offence. I should have 
 said that the majority of them were opposed to it. I think I am not justified in 
 using as broad a term as the whole of them. 
 
 3105. I understand consequently that corporal punishment has been practi- 
 cally in disuse at Wakefield for several years past ? 
 
 Yes, it has. 
 
 3 1 06. Can you state on what ground it was disused, whether it was con- 
 sidered to be ineffective, or whether it was considered to be degrading to the 
 prisoners, or whether it was considered to be irritating to them ? 
 
 I believe that it would originally commence very possibly from an examina- 
 tion into the statistics of the return of prisoners who were flogged ; the return 
 of prisoners to prison who were flogged, amounted to 80 per cent., and the 
 magistrates tlierefore came to the conclusion that it was a bad punishment, as 
 a punishment ; that it had not a deterring effect with regard to the punish- 
 ment inflicted by the judges, and therefore that it had not equally a deterring 
 effect with regard to the punishment inflicted by themselves. 
 
 3107. Can you state from your own experience, whether corporal punish- 
 ment inflicted for the violation of prison rules has ever been ineffective '! 
 
 I have onl}" known one case, the West Hiding part, in 20 years, so that I 
 really have had very little experience with regard to corporal punishments in 
 prisons. 
 
 3108. Has only one case of flogging occurred in 20 years? 
 1 only remember one case. 
 
 3 1 09. During that time, I presume, you had more cases than one of violence 
 to prison officers ? 
 
 Yes ; a man has been indicted at the assizes. 
 
 3110. Has it ever happened that an officer has been struck, or been 
 assaulted by a prisoner, and that it has been passed over without any punish- 
 ment being inflicted ? 
 
 No, never. 
 
 3111. What has been the practice pursued ? 
 
 The practice has been to report such aggravated cases to the magistrates, 
 and their punishment is one which I will read to your Lordships. It is a mode 
 of punishment which the magistrates have adopted ; instead of a continuous 
 punishment for 14 days and one month, it is a varied one, and has been found 
 very effective for the prisoners. This refers to the 14 days' punishment by 
 order of the justices ; it is on the principle that if a man is 14 days on a very 
 low diet, day after day, he gets indiff"erent to it at the end of the term, and that 
 he does not feel the punishment so acutely as under this form, which is less 
 detrimental to tie man's health, and is a more severe punishment ; three days 
 dark cell on bread and water ; one day in his own cell, on the regular diet ; 
 three days in his own cell on bread and water ; one day in his own cell regular 
 diet; three days dark cell on bread and water ; one day in his own cell on 
 regular diet, and two days in his own cell on bread and water : making the 14 
 days. 
 
 (37.9.) NN3 3112. Are
 
 286 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Shepherd, Esq. '<^\2. Are the Committee to understand that this punishment of 14 days, 
 
 inflicted by order of the magistrates, is a punishment inflicted for a breach of 
 
 2 1st Apiil 1863. ti^g prison rules ? 
 
 ■ Yes. 
 
 3113. Has it ever occurred, within your experience, that that punishment 
 has had to be repeated upon the same offender f 
 
 I think it has not. 
 
 3114. Has it been perfectly effective r 
 I think it has. 
 
 3115. If it has been effective, of course it has never been repeated? 
 
 No ; it has been so far effective that tlie prisoner has not committed a heavy 
 offence again to be reported to the justices ; he may have committed a minor 
 offence again. 
 
 3116- Lord Steward^ Has it acted as an example to others, and so pre- 
 vented the commission of offences ? 
 
 No ; but it would not be known to the others. 
 
 3117. But the corporal punishment would be known, would it not ? 
 It might be if it were inflicted in public. 
 
 31 iS. Do you not usually require the presence of all the prisoners at the 
 infliction of corporal punishment ? 
 No. 
 
 3119. You might do so, might you not? 
 
 You might do so. I have known it inflicted in the presence of six or seven, 
 or eight or ten, or whatever number the cell would accommodate. 
 
 3 1 20. If you wished to produce an example you might require the attend- 
 ance of the whole prison r 
 
 You cannot require the attendance of the whole 1,500 prisoners. 
 
 3121. C/iairman.'] Has it been the practice of the visiting justices to inflict 
 that particular punishment which you have mentioned, for the offence of 
 striking an officer r 
 
 Yes ; and for repeated idleness and repeated offences, of greater magni- 
 tude or more frequent character than I have thought proper to punish. 
 
 3122. In your opinion is that a sufficient punishment for those offences ? 
 
 It has been effective, except, as I say, I should like to have corporal punish- 
 ment to hold 171 terror em. 
 
 3123. Duke of Ricfnnond.] During those 14 days all labour ceases, does 
 it not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3124. Lord Steicard.'] In respect to example, corporal punishment would 
 have the advantage over the punishment of which you have now been speaking, 
 would it not ? 
 
 I have no doubt that it would have perhaps more effect on others by obser- 
 vation than on the persons themselves. 
 
 31 2.5. Earl of Dudley.'] Could you state to the Committee whether you know, 
 of your own knowledge, that any man who has been in your gaol twice has 
 ever settled down to an honest occupation ? 
 
 Yes, scores. 
 
 3126. Do you know that of your own knowledge ? 
 
 I know of 200 such persons living in the neighbourhood of Wakefield at this 
 moment. 
 
 3127. Persons who have been twice in your gaol ? 
 
 No, not twice ; 1 cannot say how many have been twice, but there must have 
 been many tliat have been more than once out of that number. I am very 
 anxious to bring before the Committee this subject as being very important, 
 because I have a very strong conviction upon the difficulty of reforming old 
 offenders. I thought that in order thorouj^hly to understand this subject, it 
 would be well that your Lordships should know the class of persons tliat are 
 
 sent
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 287 
 
 sent to prisons. I liave, in the Paper that I have given in, stated that the class E. Shepherd, Esq. 
 is made up very much of okl offenders throughout tlie kingdom; hut I have ^istATiTiSos 
 
 gone more into detail with regard to the West Riding, and I find, on com- ^_^^ 
 
 paring the present time with 30 years ago, some very extraordinary results : 
 that in the five years ending 1 83 1 there were committed to prison for the first 
 time, of residents in the West Riding of Yorkshire, 1,240 persons, and in the 
 five years ending 1861 there were only 1,285 residents committed; so that in 
 reality the number of offenders for the first sentence, who were residents in the 
 West Riding of Yorkshire, has been stationary. Of the non-residents, strangers, 
 tramps, travelling thieves, and others who are not known to have been pre- 
 viously in prison, in the five years ending 1831, 426 were committed, and in 
 thefive years ending 1861, 1,297. In the same area of five years, up to 1831,922 
 old offenders were committed to prison, and the number in 1861 was 1,784 old 
 offenders; so that the prison population is made up of strangers, travelling 
 thieves, and old offenders. In this length of time the sentences passed ujion 
 prisoners have decreased in the West Riding amazingly. I drew up, for the 
 chairman of the quarter sessions, a record of the sentences passed of penal 
 servitude, and it is really very surprising how that has altered since the year 
 1827. From 1827 to 1835 there were 836 old offenders, and the magistrates 
 sentenced 744 of them to transportation. Without taking the inteimediate 
 time, I will go to the last one; that is, the period of eight years from 1854 
 to 1862. There were then 1,452 old offenders, and only 546 were sen- 
 tenced to penal servitude. That is one mode of decreased punishment. 
 The average number of days that the prisoners were committed and kept in 
 custody in the West Riding 30 years ago was 66 ; now it is 56. Ten days 
 appear very little in one respect, but when it is multiplied by 5,000, which 
 is the number committed in the prison, it is actually 50,000 days less con- 
 finement than there used to be. And this falls upon the class of prisoners 
 that ought to have the greatest amount of punishment, viz., the old offenders. 
 The first offences have remained stationary, and it is quite evident that the 
 old offenders have been dealt with more and more leniently every year. The 
 subject is of importance, because the number of recommittals of old uffeu- 
 ders is so different from the number of recommittals of men for the first 
 offence. The re commitments of men sent for the first offence, taking many 
 thousands, as I have done, are 26 per cent., and the recommitment .of old 
 offenders 56 per cent., so that you may depend upon 56 per cent, of old 
 offenders coming back to prison again. I do not mean to say that they all 
 come back to the same prison. 1 want to call your Lordships' attention to 
 this especially, because I believe that the greatest benefit that this Committee 
 could do would be to recommend cumulative punishments for old offenders. 
 Take the example of a criminal who steals from a hedge ; he receives a 
 month, perhaps, and then if he comes again for stealing clothes from a hedge, 
 he receives six months perha|)S ; and then, if he comes again, possibly he is 
 sentenced to penal ser\ itude. I do not see why the same law should not be 
 carried out with regard to all offenders of every description. It is not a new 
 subject. The Legislature has sanctioned cumulative punishments in a variety 
 of cases, but they are restricted to repetitions of the like offence. I am 
 anxious that the cumulative punishments should be upon all offences. A man 
 commits an offence, say, of damaging trees growing and trees not growing, for 
 instance. If he damages trees growing, the punishment for the first offence 
 ■would be six months, and the second would be three years ; but the man may 
 commit an offence on trees not growing, and it is treated exactly as a first 
 ofience. There are many Acts of Parliament giving cumulative punishments ; 
 but they are spread about in individual Acts, and I do not believe it is known 
 to one magistrate in 10 that there are such punishments as those. 
 
 3128. Chairman.'] You are surely aware that when a previous conviction is 
 proved against a prisoner, the judge always makes the sentence depend upon 
 that previous conviction, and augments his punishment in consequence ? 
 
 \ es ; 1 am anxious that previous convictions should be proved, not upon 
 felonies only, but on all offences. 
 
 3129. Earl oi Dudley.'] You are speaking now of summary jurisdictions, are 
 you not ? 
 
 ■^'es ; there are the offences of vagrants, rogues, vagabonds, malicious tres- 
 (37. 9.) N N 4 ^ passers.
 
 288 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Shepherd, Esq. passers, disorderly apprentices, disordei-ly paupers, and a variety of other 
 A~~T" 8fi offences for which men come over and over again to prison 20 or 30 times. I 
 P" ^ ^' know one person who came for tearing his clothes in the workhouse seven 
 ' times in one year. The man had been out of prison for the longest period 
 
 for seventeen days, and the shortest, five. I do not believe in any good 
 the repetitions of those punishments can do to these prisoners. I beheve 
 that the prison discipline would make very little alteration indeed with regard 
 to such prisoners ; but if you could induce the Legislature to make an Act of 
 Parliament sanctioning cumulative punishments upon all sorts of offences, and 
 summary convictions not alone upon the repetition of a like offence ; supposing 
 that a man is committed as a rogue and vagabond, and he afterwards is com- 
 mitted for wilful damage, the committal on the first offence, if proved against 
 him, the second time should entail a cumulative punishment; I believe that if 
 the punishments were beginning at a small amount and increasing three or 
 four fold, and ending with a sentence of two years, or a sentence of penal ser- 
 vitude as the case might be, your Lordships woLdd do the very best thing 
 towards thinning the prisons of this country of crime. I believe that that 
 would be the beginning of it, and I have no doubt in the world that it would 
 be an excellent thing. Taking it on the low figure that the men are not re- 
 foimed and are not deterred, at any rate they are kept out of the way and are 
 not inducing others to commit offences, as many of those old travelhng thieves 
 and clever men do. All men who are transported do not come for the first or 
 second offence for felony, but ior all sorts of offences. I have before me a 
 list of 200 men that were sentenced to penal servitude in Wakefield, and 94 of 
 these came for various trifling offences for the first time, so that in the case of 
 those men who h;id come frequently 40 or 50 times to prison, if, instead of always 
 giving the men 7 days and 10 days, you sentenced them, after three or four 
 convictions, to two years' imprisonment, I believe you virould do more good 
 than by any means that you have in your power by any altered system of prison 
 discipline. 
 
 3130. Duke of Ixkhmond.'} Would not that rather go to show that your dis- 
 ciplive in Wakefield prison is not quite so severe as it ought to be ? 
 
 The table which I have referred to will show that at any rate our discipline 
 is more effective in Wakefield than in neai'ly every other county. The seven 
 counties that are in a better position than Wakefield, are quite agricultural ; 
 Ctunberland, Cornwall, Huntingdon, Bedford, Suffolk, and Rutland; and then 
 comes the West Riding of Yorkshire. Surely the discipline must have done 
 some good. 
 
 3131. You were speaking of the number of times that a pauper was sent to 
 prison for tearing his clothes. If that man had been sentenced to three weeks, 
 and had been kept on the treadwheel all the time, would he not have been less 
 likely to tear his clothes ? 
 
 If I were satisfied that the treadwheel or any other punishment would deter 
 a man, by all means let him have the treadwheel ; but I am not satisfied that it 
 wovdd do any good. 
 
 3132. Earl of Romiiei/.] You alluded to the Vagrant Act; do you not know 
 that under that Act the principle of cumulative punishments is recognised ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3133. Have you never known persons convicted as rogues and vagabonds, 
 commitU'd twici' for the same offences and for disorderly conduct r 
 
 Very lew cases indeed. The first convicliou is ;is a vagrant, the second as a 
 vagabond, and the third as an incorrigible i-ogue and vagabond ; I have only 
 known one incorrigible rogue and vagabond committed in 10 years. They are 
 very rare undir the third category; what 1 should recommend would be, that a 
 short Act should be passed embodying all these offences, so that the magistrates 
 who have many other duties to pcrlbrm than simply as legislators, and who do 
 not all know exactly tlie law, nnglit see tlu; clause in one single sentence; ; that 
 all offences and convictions of any description will entail a cumulative 
 punislniicnt. 
 
 3 1 34. That would do no good, would it, unless the magistrates carried it 
 out ? 
 
 They do not cany out those Acts, because they are ignorant of them. 
 
 3135- I^ut
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 289 
 
 3135. But they must know the Vagrant Act? e, shepherd, Esq. 
 
 Yes, but there are but very many other Acts giving increased sentences which — — 
 
 few magistrates know. ^'^^ -^P"' 18C3. 
 
 3136- A person is charged with an offence under the Vagrant Act, and 
 though there is the power to inflict cumulative punishment, you sav that it is 
 never exercised ? 
 
 Very rarely. 
 
 3137. 'LorA Weu.sle7jdale.\ You may always increase the sentence for the 
 second offence where the punishment is discretionary ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3138. But in the case of a fixed punishment, you could not inflict it r 
 
 Just so, the discretionary punishments are what have led to this great reduc- 
 tion in the amount of the sentence. There is something to be said, perhaps, in 
 favour of discretionary punishments ; but 1 must say that they have led to a 
 considerable reduction. 
 
 3139. Duke oi Richmond.'] I understood you to give in a statement of the 
 different sentences that have been passed within the last seven years as com- 
 pared with the year 1835. Is not that the effect of a change in the law? 
 
 The shortness of the sentences is not the effect of the change in the law. I 
 dare say the effect of the change of the law with regard to penal servitude may 
 have something to do with it; but I excluded myself from that, because I 
 said previously convicted prisoners. The magistrates have had at all times the 
 power of sentencing previously convicted prisoners to penal servitude ; formerly 
 they could sentence any one who committed larceny to penal servitude. 
 
 3140. 'Eavloi Romneij.'] Do not you find a very great diversity in the sen- 
 tences of the judges ? 
 
 There is as great a diversity between one judge and another as there is 
 between one justice and another. 
 
 3141. Lord Wensleydale.] Generally speaking, do not you think that the 
 judges are much more lenient in modern times than they used to be r 
 
 Yes, considerably. I do not believe that public opinion would exactly bear 
 you out now in inflicting the severe sentences which were formerly inflicted ; 
 but it would be possible not to have quite so much limit given ; that a second 
 off"ence shall of necessity entail a heavier punishment ; not " may," but " shall," 
 if that were possible. 
 
 3142. Duke of Richmond.'] Keeping out of view all the circumstances attend- 
 ing the case ? 
 
 No. I would give full power within certain bounds ; say, for instance, a 
 first offence sliall entail no more than one month to three months ; the second 
 shall be three months up to six months, or up to 12, or up to whatever the 
 sentence may be. The third shall be from six to 12 ; that is the sort of dis- 
 cretion that I would give. I would give discretionary power wide enough, I 
 think, to meet the case ; but still it would be compulsory within a limit. 
 
 3143. Chalnnctn.] Does not the facility which you have been recommending 
 to a great extent involve also a better identification of the prisoners ? 
 
 Yes, it does. 1 am not sure that what I have recommended would not 
 increase that class that is found increasing so much. I mean the travelling 
 thieves ; it is exceedingly ditiicult to make a law to meet all cases. If you were 
 to say, " 1 he known ones we will punish with severity," it might by possibility 
 drive them to wander about. 1 state that to your Lordships because I think it 
 rigin to do so. Those who go about are a dangerous and an increasing class. 
 
 3 1 44. Have you ever turned your attention to a better system of identifying 
 previously convicted prisoners than that which at present e'xists ? 
 
 I have tried the system of photography, and marks, and other things ; but I 
 am sorry to say I have not nmch faith in it. 
 
 3145. Will you be good enough to state to the Committee in what wav you 
 carried out the system of marks. 
 
 Every prisoner, when he comes into prison, is stripped, and all the marks 
 
 that he has upon him are recorded in a book, natural marks more than artificial 
 
 (37. 9.) O O marks,
 
 290 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 fi. Shepherd, Esq. marks, because artificial marks can be eradicated, whereas natural marks would 
 — - take a very lung time to eradicate, indeed many of them cannot be removed, 
 
 ,2ist April 1863. yf course. But, speaking of photography, I have found very few prisoners 
 recognised in the prison from photography, unless the name or some other 
 reference was given. If you wish to carry out the whole effect of the punish- 
 ment upon the travelling thieves, there is no mode but one that I know of, 
 and that is to mark the man the same as a deserter is marked. And I do 
 not know any reason at all why a prisoner who has been convicted should 
 not be marked. 
 
 3146. Would you see any objection to inflicting a mark upon every prisoner 
 convicted again after the first felony ? 
 
 Certainly not. I see no reason in the world why he should not be marked 
 on the second conviction, in the same way as a deserter is marked. Twenty- 
 six per cent, only come back to prison, I think, out of 20,000 persons, after 
 the first commital, so that that may be taken pretty nearly as the standard of 
 returns of first convictions. You give a man a fair chance in that case, but if 
 he comes a second time, then I do not think that you ought to deal mercifully 
 with him at all, but you should inflict the severest punishment, either by dis- 
 cipline, or by anything of that kind. 
 
 314; . Are you of opinion that such a process would be exceedingly dreaded 
 by thieves and criminals who become habituated to crime ? 
 Yes. 
 
 3148. How would you propose to inflict the mark ? 
 
 I do not know that you could do it much better, or more effectively, than 
 under the arm. 
 
 3i4(). Would that be by means of gunpowder ? 
 
 I think that or Indian ink produces the most lasting impression ; it could be 
 taken out, but it would leave a scar. You could obliterate the letter " D.," 
 for instance, on a deserter, but it would leave a scar. Now, if the scar was 
 in such a place as scars are rarely to be found, in some soft part of the flesh, 
 it would be almost as good an identification as if the actual letter " D." were 
 remaining. 
 
 3150. In fact, from your own experience in these matters, you see no diffi- 
 culty, either practical or moral, in doing it. 
 
 No ; I have advocated it at all times. 
 
 3151. Do you doubt that benefit would result from it '•' 
 
 I am sure that it would be of the greatest possible benefit to the class of 
 persons that one is most anxious to punish. But I have explained to your 
 Lordships that which ! thought so important, namely, that the original crimi- 
 nals of the West Riding have not increased 45 in 30 years, when all the 
 others have doubled. That therefore shows the importance of some system 
 of identification of those travelling thieves. 
 
 3152. Do you think that there would be any advantage obtained from having 
 a more reguUir system of communication established with regard to pre- 
 viously convicted jirisoners between the governors of the different gaols r 
 
 Yes ; I will explain to your Lordships wljat we do : there is a prison at Leeds, 
 in our immediate neighbourhood, and three days before the sessions, five or 
 six officers from Wakefield go over to examine all the prisoners for trial at 
 Leeds, and vice versa; they come over from Leeds to examine the prisoners 
 at Wakefield, and in that case many persons are detected who are known as old 
 offenders. A month ago, two persons were sent to prison at Wakefield in one 
 day ; the chaplain of the prison at Wakefield was formerly the chaplain at 
 Portland ; he came to me and said, " There are two men that you do not 
 know, and that I know ; they had been previously transported wlien I was at 
 Portland ; I will give you the names in conlidence." A few days after, we sent 
 a man to the (Chatham prison, when he came to the Chatham prison, tlie 
 authorities at Chatham knew him as having been i)reviously at Chatham. A 
 few days after that, a prisoner was sent from London to Wakefield for confine- 
 ment, and when he came into the prison, we knew him as having been 
 previously convicted in Manchester; and as having undergone disciphne at 
 Wakefield. A few days after that, a man came into the West Killing part of 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 291 
 
 the prison, when he was inspected by the officers, he was known to have been E. Shepherd, Esq. 
 previously convicted, and sent from Leicestersliire. Tliose are live cases all -— 
 
 within a month ; they would have escaped detection, but for accidental "^^ P" ^* 
 circumstances ; and I have no doubt whatever that such cases are very 
 numerous indeed. If there could be such a system of registration as your 
 Lordship has referred to it would identify a man and show that he was knoAvn ; 
 but unless you had a mark to find (jut who the prisoner was, you would be 
 very little better off. If you say, " I know that a man has been in prison " (as 
 we may when we see a photograph) " but I do not remember his name, and I do 
 not remember any circumstances about him;" unless the law allowed you 
 to punish a prisoner with cumulative punishment because he had been in some 
 ■other prison, I do not see what great benefit you would derive from such a 
 system. 
 
 3155. Are you of opinion that photography itself has been instrumental in 
 identifying them r _ . 
 
 Very few indeed ; considering the extent to which it is used now in prisons, 
 it has been instrumental in but few cases. 
 
 3154. Does not sending over the officers to Leeds on the different occasions 
 that you have described involve a certain amount of expense ? 
 
 Yes, it does ; with regard to Leeds, which is very near Wakefield, the 
 expense is very trifling in that respect ; but it would be a very considerable 
 expense if the system were universal. The expense is about 2^. 8.s. a year, or 
 something of that kind, to each prison. 
 
 315.5. It would be impossible, would it not, to apply that system to any- 
 thing except immediate localities ? 
 It would. 
 
 3156. Lord [Venslci/dale.'] Who pays that expense ? 
 
 The borough of Leeds pays it in the one case, and the West Riding in the 
 other. It is an acknowledged expense, and is ordered by the magistrates to be 
 defrayed. 
 
 3157. C}iairman.~\ Looking at the expense which would interfere with this 
 system being carried into effect in many parts of England, are you of opinion 
 that the reduced scale of allowances to witnesses, which has been issued lately 
 by the Home Office, has acted prejudicially, so far as the identification of 
 previous offenders is concerned ? 
 
 It did act unfavourably, but I think it is altered now. 
 
 3158. Did you yourself experience great injury from it? 
 
 No ; 1 did not myself experience it, because the magistrates in the .West 
 Riding always allowed a reasonable sum, and they paid it out of the county rates, 
 independently of the Home Office. It was disallowed by the Government, but 
 it was allowed there ; but I have repeatedly seen refusals of officers to come 
 there, not knowing that fact. Although they were not couched in such terms, 
 as saying, " I will not come, because you will not pay me," it came to that. 
 
 3159. Do you consider that the present revised scale of allowances is a 
 sufficient remuneration to the officers for going to a distance to identify a 
 prisoner ? 
 
 Yes, I do. 
 
 3160. Can you state wherein in tbat revised scale the distinction lies, which 
 is drawn between the allowance made to a police constable at the assizes, and a 
 police constable at the quarter sessions. 
 
 I believe it is because at the assizes the expenses are greater ; assize towns 
 are in many cases small towns, and the expenses of living are greater during 
 those times ; a greater number of persons congregate together at such seasons, 
 and the expense is greater ; the lodgings are a very heavy expense indeed,. 
 
 3161. Is everything in fact raised in price, so far as accommodation and food 
 es during the assizes ? 
 
 (37. 9.) 2 Yes ;
 
 292 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 E. Shepherd, Efq. Yes ; SO far as regards the subject. I was mentioning about old oifenders ; 
 there is an illustration which I think is worthy of being brought before vour 
 
 •aist Aprii 1S63. Loi-dships. The adults have increased from 3,611 in 1856, to 5,332 last year ; 
 the juveniles were 324 in 1856, and they have been reduced to 214. In the 
 last three years, in the West Riding, there has been an increase of adults 
 something like 1,000 or 900 in each year, and the juveniles have been stationary. 
 I bring this before the Committee to show the benefit that has arisen from 
 having juveniles in continement. Boys are influenced more easily perhaps than 
 men by their bad associates ; but having the bad class away from them, I 
 believe has really kept down what might be an increase ; and I have no doubt 
 that the same re^ult would arise if you were to have those old ott'cnders locked 
 up. I have a suggestion to make to the Committee with regard to the treatr 
 ment of prisoners founded upon our own experience, and it is this : that every 
 prisoner comuiitted for a term of imprisonment not exceeding one month, shall 
 be kept in strict solitary confinement, and subjected to the following discipline 
 and diet. Then the diet would be for 10 days according to the 7th class, 
 which I have given, and for terms exceeding- 10 days, the 6th class. There 
 should be no exercise, unless specially ordered by the surgeon, who shall state 
 his reasons in each individual case. With regard to correspondence, no letters 
 or visits to be allowed ; instruction, no books, except the Bible and Prayer Book, 
 and no school instruction ; to attend Divine Service on the Sabbath, work at 
 the discretion of the justices. With regard to cell accommodation, every cell 
 so occupied by this class to be supplied with a seat, a wooden bedstead, or guard 
 bed, with no mattress ; sufficient clothing being allowed for warmth, and 
 exercise. I have made a remark, " this rule to be dispensed with with regard to 
 aged prisoners." The second part of the suggestion is, that every prisoner 
 committed for a longer period than one month shall be kept in solitary- 
 confinement for the first 14 days of his imprisonment; that he shall be placed 
 on the 5th or lowest class; he shall have 10 hours of labour exclusive of in- 
 struction, which shall be given in the evening, after Avorking hours : and one 
 hour of exercise per day. I would suggest that an ascending scale, not only of 
 diet, but of slight prison relaxations, should be drawn up in every prison by the 
 visiting justices ; so that a prisoner, by his conduct and industry, and endea- 
 vouring to improve or reform, might be encouraged, and thus have something 
 to hope for and to look forward to. I believe that that would be as strict a disci- 
 pline as it is possible for these men to bear ; and I think it would work satisfac- 
 torily if there were added to it those long sentences which I am anxious should 
 be introduced. 
 
 3162. Earl of Romieij.'] Your view in all this is to reform the man, is 
 it not ? 
 
 My principal aim is to reform the man. 
 
 3163. Lord Steward.'] Can reformation be eff'ected in the case of prisoners 
 sentenced to short imprisonments ? 
 
 I am sure it could not ; I have no hope, certainly, in such cases. 
 
 3164. Earl of Rovmeij.] Do you beheve that if the criminal law were carried 
 out with greater vigour, both with regard to sentences and also with regard . 
 to internal discipline in prisons, any reduction might be made in the class of 
 offenders ? 
 
 I am sure that it might ; I have not any hesitation in recommending it, and 
 stating it boldly as my opinion. 
 
 3165. The practice has been lately very much to reduce the severity of sen- 
 tences, has it not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3166. During which time a very great increase has taken place in the class of 
 old offenders? 
 
 Yes ; I have stated, that not only in the West Riding, but throughout England 
 
 and Wales the class of old offenders is increasing. 
 
 3107. Your
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 293 
 
 3167 Your expectation is, that a very great reduction in the criminal popu- E. Shepherd, Esq. 
 
 lation might be made by carrying out the criminal law witU greater vigour - ^^^^ ^^^.^ ^g^^ 
 
 Yes, that is my opinion. 
 
 The "Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, 
 
 Twelve o'clock. 
 
 (37. 0.) O O 3
 
 [ 295 ] 
 
 Die Jovis, ^3° Ain-ilis 1 863. 
 
 LORDS PRESEN-T: 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 LoED Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of RoMNET. 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Lord Wodehouse. 
 Lord "Wensletdale. 
 Lord Ltveden. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON in the Chair. 
 
 Evidence on 
 Prison Discipline. 
 
 SIR WALTER CROFTON, c.b., is called in, and examined as follows : «:> W. Crofton, 
 
 C.B. 
 
 3168. Cliairman.'] YOU have been for several years engaged in the superin- 23d ApriUSGa. 
 tendence of Irish Prisons, have you not ? — 
 
 Yes ; I was appointed chairman of the Board of Directors of Irish Convict 
 Prisons in 1854, and I retired from that office in June 18G2. 
 
 3169. Besides the position which you have held in Ireland, you have had 
 experience, have you not, in England of the county prisons, and of prison matters 
 generally ? 
 
 Yes, I have, as a magistrate, not only in ray own county of Wiltshire, but in 
 other gaols, which I have constantly visited, and minutely examined. 
 
 31 70. It was in your interest in prison matters, under those circumstances, that 
 originally led to your turning your attention to the subject, and ultimately to your 
 appointment in Ireland ? 
 
 It was. 
 
 3171. The whole question of Prison Discipline in its general outline has con- 
 sequently been a matter of interest and study to you ? 
 
 It has. 
 
 3172. Are you of opinion, that in the gaols and houses of correction in England 
 at present there are very large discrepancies both in the construction of the prisons 
 and in the discipline of the prisoners '? 
 
 I am decidedly of that 'opinion ; I consider that there is great want of uni- 
 formity, both in the labour and in the diet, and in many instances in the location 
 of the prisoners themselves. 
 
 3173. Is it not your opinion that want of uniformity is very prejudicial ? 
 Very much so, because I find that the sentence of hard labour in one county 
 
 means a distinctly different thing from a similar sentence in another county. 
 
 3174. Are you of opinion that there is laxity in point of discipline in many of 
 those prisons : 
 
 I am not prepared to say that there is any laxity ; I consider the want of 
 uniformity of procedure to be excessively detrimental : it arises, as it appears, to 
 me, from a very general want of proper appliances for carrying out hard labour, 
 and in many cases from an idea that separate imprisonment has superseded the 
 necessity of hard labour. 
 
 3175. Do you believe that in many prisons both the diet is in excess, and the 
 labour is in deficiency, of that which you would consider to be a satisfactory 
 standard ? 
 
 (37. 10.) 4 I ani
 
 296 MINUTES OF EVIDEInCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir W. Crofton, I am not prepared to state that. I consider that the want of uniformitv in the 
 ^•'^- diet is a great objection. I believe that the recommendation, — for it was a recom- 
 
 23d April 1863. mendation only from the Home Office, made many years since — with regard to 
 the dietary given in county prisons is erroneous in principle, because we find con- 
 stantly that prisoners are asking for longer sentences in order to evade a short 
 sentence, and the low dietary connected w-ith it. It therefore ajipears to me to 
 operate as a sort of premium to the commission of a greater offence. It would 
 appear to me to be a far better arrangement that every man who enters a prison 
 should, during the first period of his sentence, have the lowest dietary, and then 
 be promoted from one class of dietary to the other, according to time and other 
 circumstances ; I think that tliey should all commence with the lowest scale of 
 diet, which would at once take away the ground for a prisoner wishing to have 
 a longer sentence in order to escape the low dietaries. 
 
 3176. Is it not, in point of fact, the case that the dietary improves just in pro- 
 portion as the offence itself becomes grave ? 
 
 There is no question about it. 
 
 3177. And that whereas you punish a venial offence by the heaviest form of 
 diet that you can devise, you punish a very grave offence by a very much improved 
 dietary ? 
 
 Yes, certainly. 
 
 3178. Therefore your opinion would be that the dietary should be pro"-ressive, 
 and that all prisoners should commence with the lowest dietarj', whether they were 
 in prison for a short sentence or for a long one ? 
 
 That is my decided opinion. 
 
 3179. Are you of opinion that the tread- wheel is an implement which is 
 useful in the correction of prisoners ? 
 
 I am, decidedly. I know that there are many objections to the tread-wheel, 
 principally, perhaps, because persons consider that the labour of the tread-wheel is 
 unproductive labour. Now I cannot myself see why it should be unproductive. 
 I know that many people consider that the fact of having unproductive labour 
 operating on the mind of a prisoner is very detrimental ; but I cannot see why 
 the tread-wheel need be unproductive in its results. J am certain that if it were 
 carried out judiciously it would be a very great deterrent to criminals. 
 
 3180. Has not the tread- wheel this advantage over some other forms of punish- 
 ment, that it is possible by means of it to apply the amount and proportion of 
 punishment with greater accuracy ? 
 
 I have understood so. I cannot say that I am in a position to assert it posi- 
 tively. The tread-wheel itself no doubt o])erates very differently ; it would require 
 to bo regulated, or else there is a certain numljer of ste|)s that a man may be 
 required to take in a certain time in one case, and in another not so many ; but 
 •t appears to me as good a form of punishment as can be devised for the purpose. 
 
 3181. The same argument which you use with regard to the tread- wheel 
 would be applicable as regards the crank, would it not? 
 
 Yes, it would ; I prefer the tread-wheel myself to any other system of hard 
 labour, and I believe that it might be made really an instrument of great service ; 
 for instance, the plan that I should adopt with regard to it would be, that during 
 the first month of imprisonment I would place a prisoner for a certain number of 
 hours, to be decided upon, per day on the tread-wheel. The second month, if the 
 conduct of the prisoner, and his industry in other employments which I would 
 point out, were satisfactory, I should let the labour on the tread-wheel be reduced, 
 month by month, so that we should find that, although a man would be getting 
 hard lal)our during his sentence, it would rest Avith himself, through his industry 
 and g(ii)(l conduct, to reduce the amount of his hard labour on the tread-wheel. 
 When the time ior the tread-wheel in the day was over, I should institute other 
 employments, depending, of course, on the ])eriod of imprisonment. During the 
 first month, if the sentence was for one montli or under, prisoners would of course 
 be a considerable portion of their time on the tread-wheel, but the remainder of 
 the time I shonhl occupy them in jiicking oakum, or some other simple employ- 
 ment, as to wliich you could note whether they were industrious and well-behaved 
 in carrying it out. 
 
 3182. In
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 297 
 
 3182. In your point of view, the tread- wheel is essentially a penal engine of 5/^. w'Crofton 
 discipline ? c. b. ' ^ 
 
 Yes, essentially ; at the same time, I think it conld be combined with other 
 
 industrial pursuits, under such arrangx-meuts as uoukl afford a stimulus to a man to 23d April iSCj'3. 
 
 Avork himself off this hard labour by degrees, and to earn something for himself, — 
 
 perhaps, when he leaves the prison. 
 
 3183. And your view would bo, that, having regard to the requirements of 
 prison discipline, and the ultimate reformation of the prisoner, the penal element, 
 ■whether it be by the tread-wheel or by the crank, ought to form a constituent 
 part of that system ? 
 
 I am quite satisfied about that, and more now than ever, because nine years 
 since we established reformatory schools at a great expenditure of money and time, 
 and I think that when we do so much to jirevent crime, and to train the young 
 so that they shall not jjursue criminal avocations, we are bound, on the other 
 hand, to be more stringent in the punishment of those who still pursue a course of 
 crime, notwithstanding what we have done for them. I am quite satisfied that the 
 managers of reformatory schools would consider their hands strengthened by its 
 being known that pursuing a course of crime would lead to really stringent punish- 
 ment, and to other deterrent procedure externally, which I shall, I hope, point 
 out presently. 
 
 31 84. It has been given in evidence before this Committee by some of the 
 witnesses, that, in their opinion, the effect of the tread-wheel and the crank is to 
 create a sense of degradation in the mind of the prisoner ; is that your opinion? . 
 
 I have no doubt it may do so ; but, combined with other industrial pursuits, 
 I think this effect might be counteracted. I believe that the penal element is 
 so necessary, that the feeling of degradation ranks as of minor importance in my 
 mind. 
 
 3185. Do you believe that it creates an irritating feeling in the minds of tlie 
 prisoners ? 
 
 I have no doubt it might if it was kept on constantly without being combined 
 with anything else; but 1 am satisfied that if you showed a man the possibility of 
 his getting ofi" it through his own extra industry and good conduct, you get rid at 
 once of that feeling of irritation. 
 
 31 86. Lord Steward.] Do you think that the number of prisoners in M'hose 
 minds a feeling of irritation is caused by the mere fact of labour being unpro- 
 ductive, and who draw a distinction between productive and unproductive labour, 
 the two forms of labour being equally fatiguing and painful, is large ? 
 
 I thi)ik they do draw the distinction ; and my own impression is, that it would 
 be a large number, althouoh I have heard many experienced governors of gaols 
 say thiit they do not think it is. But I believe the whole of that feeling of 
 irritation would be got rid of through the institution of other industrial pursuits in 
 connexion with it. 
 
 3187. Lord Li/vedcn.] What experience have you of the tread-wheel; is it 
 generally adopted in Ireland ? 
 
 Jt is adopted partially in Ireland as it is in this country ; it is not adopted in 
 the convict prisons in Ireland ; but I have observed its operation in many prisons 
 in this country, and in Ireland also ; and I have seen many criminals and con- 
 victs who have been subjected to it, and I have heard their impressions of it. 
 
 3188. Have you seen enough of it to be able to form a decided opinion upon 
 its effects r 
 
 I have, certainly. 
 
 3189. Earl of liomiiei/.] Have you ever had charge of any particular prison, so 
 as to have an opportunity of watching the prisoners from day to day ? 
 
 I have not. 
 
 3190. Yours are merely casual visits? 
 Yes. 
 
 3191. Tlierefore, it is rather difficult for you to form an opinion as to its eff'ect 
 upon prisoners as to their sense of irritation or degradation ? 
 
 (37. 10.) P P It
 
 298 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir W. Crofton, It is SO a? to the effect physically, of course ; but witli regard to its effect in 
 
 c B. producing irritability, I liave seen so many convicts and othei's who have been sub- 
 
 , . ~ „„ jected to it, that I think I can give an opinion with regard to it, I believe that 
 
 unproductive labour of tliat description does generate irritability ; but if it were 
 
 made productive and coupled with other industrial pursuits, as I have advised, 
 
 their minds would be divested of that fcelino- of irritation with regard to it. 
 
 3192. If men employed npou the tread-wheel know that in one case they are 
 grinding corn, and in another case they are merely turning against the air, do you 
 think that that knowledge would in the one case cause irritability, and in the other 
 case not ? 
 
 I beheve that it would. 
 
 3193. Do you judge in that way from what the men have told you ? 
 
 Yes ; the prisoners have told me themselves that they would rather know that 
 they were doing something, and governors of gaols have also told me the same 
 thing. Ikit that would not at all alter my opinion with regard to the proper use 
 of the tread-wheel, because I believe it could be used advantageously in combina- 
 tion with other things. 
 
 3194. Lo7-d Sttioard^ It might be made applicable to useful purposes, such as 
 grinding corn, or pumping, might it not ? 
 
 Yes, certainly, and is so in many gaols. 
 
 3195. Chairnia7i.'\ Are you familiar with the use of what is called the cellular 
 hard labour crank ? 
 
 No, I am not. 
 
 3196. Are you aware whether the prisoners themselves, as a general rule, prefer 
 industrial occupation to work on the tread-wheel r 
 
 I am quite sure they would infinitely prefer industrial occupation. 
 
 31 97. Would they prefer open air exercise to industrial occupation ? 
 Yes. 
 
 "198. Therefore, they would prefer industrial occupation to the tread- wheel, 
 and open air exercise to industrial occupation ? 
 That I am sure of. 
 
 3 1 99. By open air exercise you moan, do you not, exercise in some inclosed place 
 
 or yard ? 
 
 Yes, or some employment in that yard. 
 
 3200. Of what nature would you suppose that employment to be ? 
 
 I think they would rather havo any out-of-doors employment than be shut up 
 in their cells with industrial labour. 
 
 -^201. If industrial occupation be given in lieu of hard labour by the crank or 
 by the tread-wheel, is it in your opinion desirable that it should be assigned to each 
 prisoner by piece-work ? 
 
 T think it would be very desirable if it could be done ; but it would be replete 
 with difficulty. I have in my mind a very inferior tailor, who could, perhaps, just 
 stitch a little, and another a very good tailor, who with one-fourth of the labour 
 could perform the same task; I think it would be a very didicult thmg to 
 arrive exactly at each man's capability of performing his work by the piece in a 
 certain amount of time. 
 
 3202. Is not that rather an argument against industrial occupation as a 
 
 whole? . . ,11 
 
 I think not. But I have already expressed my opinion that the tread-wheel 
 hard labour should form a portion, and a very strong purtion, of the itunishment. 
 I think that it would be quite easy to know whether a man was performing as 
 much as he could of industrial work by some system of cheek, either by marks or 
 any other system, which would record whether a man was doing his best ; that is 
 Avhat we want to get at with regard to prisoners. One man may do more work than 
 another, but still not be actually so industrious. W'c have a record kept, with 
 marks, in the Irish convict prisons, which jjives us an idea of the amount of 
 industrial labour that a man is performing according to his capability. 
 
 3203. I suppose that in proportion as you complicate the nature of the indus-
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE- 299 
 
 trial occupation, so you increase the difficulty in assigning anything like piece- Sir W^ Crofton, 
 ■work to the prisoner? ' 
 
 I think so. 23d April 1863. 
 
 3204. Therefore, if you have recourse to industrial occupation, it is desirable to ' 
 have it of the simplest kind ? 
 
 That \\ould be my imjn-ession. 
 
 3205. Probably that simple form of industrial occupation -would be mat-making, 
 or something of that nature ? 
 
 If your Lordship will alloAV me, I will just explain what industrial occupation 
 I would assign. For sentences above one month, after the prisoners had been on 
 the tread-wheel for a portion of the day, and performed their hard labour, I should 
 place all tradesmen at the work that they can perform ; if a man were a shoemaker, 
 he siiould be put to shoemaking, and a tailor shouhl be put to tailoring, and so on. 
 But as tlie majority of prisoners would not be tradesmen, I should, after the one 
 month, place tliem at an employment, such as boot-closing, which is a very simple 
 process, and which could be learned in about 10 days or a fortnight ; sack-making, 
 and works of that kind, which men in 10 days can perform, perhaps roughly, but 
 well, and their industry at which be very easily noted. Those are the sort 
 of works I should put them on. Mat-making takes a little more time, per- 
 haps ; but there would be no objection to that, as it does not require much skill. 
 Those under a mouth, I should only put to oakum-picking. They would 
 have very little time beyond the period at the tread-wheel in which to work at 
 all, and during that time I should give them the simplest work I could, which 
 would be oakum-picking. After one month I should allow a man to work him- 
 self off the tread-wheel by his industry at other avocations, which I think could 
 be very satisfactorily marked, as in the Irish convict prisons, without piece- 
 work. 
 
 3 206. Lord JVodehouse.'] What necessity would there be for giving them 
 employment beyond the tread-wheel in oakum-picking ? 
 
 Because I think you would find that the medical officer would not allow them 
 to be the whole period of tlie month on the tread-wheel. 
 
 3207. How long would you allow them to be on the tread-wheel r 
 
 1 can scarcely answer that question, as the opinion of medical officers is so dif- 
 ferent in different gaols. I would keep them on the tread-Avheel as long as thev 
 could work at it, and if there was any surplus time, I would employ them at 
 oakum-picking. 
 
 3208. Earl of Romney.'] Do you mean that if a man was in prison for 7 or 10 
 days you would give him tread-Avheel labour r 
 
 I would give him as much tread-wheel labour as he was thought tit to undergo. 
 In some gaols there are only eight hours and less devoted to tread-wheel labour ; the 
 surj)lus time for labour I should devote to oakum-picking in cases under one 
 month. 
 
 3209. C/iainna?i.} You stated, did you not, that it is difficult to apply anything 
 like a system of task work in industrial occupation ? 
 
 My impression is that it would be very difficult. I have never tried it, but I 
 should consider it would be so. 
 
 3210. Lord Sttward.'} Wliat is your opinion of shot-drill as' a punishment ? 
 I do not like it. 
 
 3211. What is your objection to it ? 
 
 1 thiid< it is one that perhaps generates more irritability than anything else with 
 the prisoner, because you cannot make it productive in any possible form. 
 
 32 1 2. Does that answer consist with the experience of the governors of military 
 and naval prisons? 
 
 I should think not ; but there would be a variety of opinions with regard to it 
 amongst them ; shot-drill cannot be made productive labour in any way, whereas 
 the tread-wheel can. 
 
 3213. Chairvian.'] I conclude that, under all circumstances, it is difficult to 
 obtain from a man in confinement the same amount of work which you would get 
 from a free labourer ? 
 
 (37. 10.) p p 2 The
 
 300 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sh- W. Cr,fton, ^ery difficult, in my opinion. 
 
 ^•_°; 3214. If tliere be no task-work or no piece-work assignee! , is it not very difficult 
 
 23a April 1SG3. to have anything like a check upon the amount of work which is done ? 
 
 ''' I think it would be found easy for the officers of the prison, the governor, and 
 
 the trades-warders, to note whether each man is doing his best ; the prisoner 
 would have an inducement through working himself so many hours off the tread- 
 wheel each month in consequence of the industry evinced at other avocations, 
 which could be carefully noted. 
 
 3215. What would be the inducement Mhich you would hold out to him ; 
 would it be simple relief from the more penal form of labour, or direct advantage 
 in the shape of diet and otlier advantages? 
 
 A relief from the more penal form of labour, and other advantages, such as a 
 gratuity on his liberation. By statute it is possible, at the jjresent time, that a 
 man should have a small gratuity on his liberation ; I should recommend that this 
 man should, by his extra industry, earn whatever gratuity he should receive, and 
 that if he did not perform that extra industry, which I think could be measured 
 satisfactorily, he should not have his gratuity, so that he would feel that it was 
 tlu-ough his own exertions he was repla;"ing himself in the community in a manner 
 to further any good intentions he may have formed. 
 
 3216. That would have tlie additional advantage, would it not, of effi.^cting 
 indirectly a repayment to the county ? 
 
 Clearly. 
 
 3217. In your opinion, is it necessary to make the inducement very large in 
 order to secure the good conduct or the increased exertions of a prisoner ? 
 
 No, it is not. 
 
 32 1 8. You consider that a small inducement, if it led to some improvement in 
 his state, is sufficient ? 
 
 It would be sufficient for all purposes to generate the industry that you require. 
 
 32 I g. When a prisoner is sentenced in court to hard labour, is it your opinion 
 that that hard labour is intended to include labour at the tread-wheel or at the 
 crank, or at industrial occupation ; or would it be thought to imjjly simple con- 
 finement within the walls of the gaol ? 
 
 I should understand most distinctly that the meaning of hard labour must be 
 what we all understand by hard labour, labour either on the tread-wheel or the 
 crank ; I cannot inyself consider that a man's making a waistcoat or a pair of 
 trousers in his cell is hard labour. 
 
 3220. jLo}-d Steioard.'] It should be something requiring bodily exertion ? 
 Yes. 
 
 3221. Chairman.'] We have had evidence with regard to one system of con- 
 finement in which self-instruction, as it is termed, is made the basis of prison 
 discipline, and the prisoner is confined in a cell, and whatever work lie does, 
 though of the mildest form, is given him rather as a reward and relaxation 
 than as a punishment ; would that be consistent witli your theory of j)rison 
 punishment, or with your idea of what is intended by the Act of Parliament, and 
 by the reports which have been issued on the subject? 
 
 I think it could be conibined with what I have just recommended. 
 
 3222. Would you approve of it taken exclusively? 
 
 No, not exclusively ; I do not think it would be sufficient. 
 
 3223. Would a system of industrial occupation, such as is in use at Wakefield, 
 be consistent with your theory ? 
 
 I am not strictly conversant with the system at Wakefield ; my impression is, that 
 if a man is sentenced to hard labour, that hard labour should be carried out; I 
 think that a great deal that I have read as being done at Wakefield, which is very 
 vahudjie, might usefully be combined with it. 
 
 3224. With regard to your ])revious answer, will you state to the Committee 
 how you would propose to graduate your marks with reference to the offenders 
 who were in county prisons for three, or four, or six mouths ? 
 
 I have
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 301 
 
 I 'have already explained how I should treat a man who was under a mouth's Sir W. Crofton, 
 sentence; I should during the second month have a reduced period of work on c.b. 
 
 the tread -wheel, and the third mouth a further reduction ; but I would not allow — — 
 
 a man to obtain this advantage, without he satisfied those who were placed over P*^' ^' 
 
 him that he had been sufficiently industrious at the other work which had been 
 allotted to him ; I should jirefer that that industry should be noted by some 
 system of marks. That may be a prejudice on my part, because I have been 
 accustomed to marks in the Irish convict jirisons, although I am far from assuming 
 that it is the best system of marks ; there are several systems in use now, and some 
 «ystem of marks, I believe, would be a very intelligible record to prisoners of the 
 progress they were making. I think a system might be devised, so as to lead the 
 man to feel that by his own industry his position was improved, in diminishing 
 his number of hours of labour on the fread-wheel, and, as I stated before, in 
 iicquiring a small gratuity month by month. I think that this course would hold 
 out an inducement to his good conduct, and would take away the irritability induced 
 by the penal discipline, which I think is necessary to be inflicted on him ; and have 
 the very good effect of making the man feel that he was improving his position 
 through his OMU industry. I think it is far better than giving him any gratuity, 
 irrespective of industry, at the end of his term, to let hioi feel that he was gaining 
 it by his own exertions, and that if he did not gain it, he should not receive it. 
 
 3225. Would you make the increase of diet concurrent with the rise of the 
 men into the higher classes ? 
 
 I think that the present scale of dietary would be ample ; but I cannot well 
 
 give an opinion about the increase of the dietary, because there is a difference 
 
 "in different prisons ; in some cases it appears to be very ample indeed. In many 
 
 prisons the inmates are so well fed, that I should certainly not feel justified in 
 
 saying that I would improve the dietary. 
 
 3226. In the event of misconduct on the part of a prisoner who had gained 
 marks, and consequently been promoted, would you put him back to the lowest 
 •class, and make him work his way up through ihe successive stages, with all the 
 disadvantages attending them r 
 
 Yes, certainly ; and unless he acquired the proper number of marks, I would not 
 promote him from the one stage to the other ; he would have to wait in the lower 
 -stage until he had acquired the number of marks which would entitle him to be 
 removed. 
 
 3227. Lord Wodehouse.l Would not the system of marks enable the visiting 
 justices of the prison to see what the progress was ? 
 
 Yes ; I found, as director of convict prisons in Ireland, that it was of the greatest 
 possible use ; I could tell in each case at a glance whether the individual was idle, 
 and where he had failed. The establishment of the system of marks was not alone 
 due to me, and therefore I can speak the more freely upon it. I certainly have 
 the highest opinion of it. With regard to the prisoners themselves, they feel the 
 advantage of it, as well as those who have to deal with them, who would be the 
 visiting justices in the case of county prisons. 
 
 3228. There is a large class in the county prisons who are unfit, from medical 
 reasons, to work on the tread- wheel ; how would yon deal with that class ? 
 
 Unfortunately, there is scarcely an alternative but to place them at industrial 
 avocations. 
 
 3229. Would you employ them at once at industrial avocations (understanding 
 by that term trade occupations), or would you subject them to some period of 
 oakum picking ? 
 
 1 should do the same with them in that respect as with the others ; I think, 
 that being left in their cells for a month, with oakum picking, would have a more 
 deterring effect than if the trades' warder were coming in every moment attempting 
 to teach them a trade. 
 
 3230. Lord StewardJ] Some of them would be able to break stones? 
 Yes, some few. 
 
 3231. Lord Jf'odehouse.] You would put them to something analogous to the 
 tread-wheel, as far as circumstances permitted? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 (37. 10.) P P 3 3-232. jLo7-d
 
 302 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir W. Crofton, 3232. Loi'd Steward.'] As near an approach to hard labour as possible ? 
 
 c.B. Yes ; I think that a man's being left to himself at oakum picking for a time has 
 
 a verv deterring effect ; I have experienced that myself in convict prisons. 
 
 23J April 1863. ■^ 
 
 3233. Earl of Rom)iey.'\ Did you ever hear that putting men on a low scale of 
 
 diet v.'hen they first go into prison, and raising it afterwards, has been found to 
 act injuriously on their constitutions ? 
 
 I never found it to be the case ; I never heard of it happening ; I suppose there 
 may be some exceptional cases, but I cannot understand why it should be so. 
 
 3234. T)uke o? Rich?no}id.^ I understand you to say that you would think it 
 better to employ prisoners who were unable to work on the tread-wheel at breaking 
 stones ; miglit it not be very difficult in many county prisons to procure the raw 
 material ? 
 
 I am afraid it would be in many cases, and that is why I think, generally speak- 
 ing, they would have to resort to industrial avocations. I have known stone- 
 breaking in many places very profitable, at Belfast, for instance : there are many 
 local circumstances which might make it very desirable to have stone-breaking. 
 
 3235. In addition to the difficulty of ])rocuring stones, it might be in some 
 county prisons very expensive, even if the stone could be obtained ? 
 
 Quite so, I think you would generally have to find other avocations in those 
 cases. 
 
 3236. Earl Cat/tcart.] Sawing marble and stone is a punishment which is 
 adopted in some prisons ; have you had any experience of that ? 
 
 No, I have not ; oakum-picking, if they have it in a certain form of rope, can 
 be made very irksome and very troublesome for them to do ; if they have to pick a 
 certain weight, and to keep it up every day, it is more formidable work than it 
 appears. 
 
 3237. Chairvia7i.'\ The Committee have had evidence that there are still many 
 prisons in England in which the separate system has not been carried out, owing 
 to the imperfect construction of the old prisons, and the expense which would be 
 incurred in dividing them into separate cells ; has that same difficulty been felt at 
 all in the Irish prisons r 
 
 It has been felt in the Irish convict prisons, and it has occurred to me very 
 frequently whether some modification might not be made. There are many per- 
 sons wlio, I think very naturally, are not inclined to incur the great expenditure 
 that is involved in separate prisons : they adopt a plan in the Irish convict prisons 
 from economy, which I think could be very satisfactorily adopted in county 
 prisons, where they do not wish to incur the expense of more separate cells, or 
 where they have no means without a fresh building of having them ; I have brought 
 with me a rough ])lan, showing how to divide large rooms into cells, which is 
 very cheap, and answers the purpose, more especially if used for those prisoners 
 who are long periods in the county prisons, so that after they have been in the 
 ordinary cells for a certain time, they could be removed to the sort of cells that 
 I am now going to show your Lordships ; they are used on the Continent in some 
 of the prisons, and are very economical [The \Vit?ieis hands a plan to his Lordship, 
 aiul describes the same]. The cells are made of wood and wire ; the wire in front 
 and at the top ; the partitions to be either of wood or of corrugated iron, and to be 
 made removable. 
 
 3238. Do you propose under this scheme that there should be a range of cells 
 on each side of a common passage ? 
 
 Yes, on each side of a large room. 
 
 3239. Would prisoners in adjoining cells be able to see each other? 
 
 In the opposite cells they would be able to see each other, but an officer would 
 be in the passage walking up and down between the two rows of cells. 
 
 3240. Would not it be objectionable if from the opposite side of the passage 
 they could see each other .' 
 
 No, I think not; I should recommend that those who are placed in these cells 
 should bo prisoners who have been already kejit in strict separation ; I merely 
 recomnu'ud this ])lan as being far better than an associated room for them. 
 
 3241. It would be quite possible, would it not, that although prisoners in 
 
 adjoining
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 303 
 
 adjoinino- cells could not see each otlier, they could hear each other, and commu- Sir W. Crofton, 
 nicato wilh each other? c.b. 
 
 They could communicate, no doubt, but I do not contemplate placing prisoners , ~ 
 in these sort of cells when they first come into prison ; but in cases where there are 
 a limited number of separate cells, and the rest of the prison associated ruonis : 
 instead of having associated rooms, I would fit up those rooms as I have described 
 for the class of prisoners who have gone through the other cells, and I believe 
 that very little injury would arise from that arrangement. 
 
 3242. Lord Steuard.'] You recommend that only as preferable to the pl;m of 
 associated rooms : , 
 
 Yes, as preferable to the plan of associated rooms, not as a substitute for the 
 other cells in cases \yhere the expense attending tliem would be incurred. 
 
 3243. Clufirman.] What would be the cost per cell r 
 
 £'.3. 15*. for the material; as to the labour, the cells were erected by two or 
 three juvenile carpenters in the prison. 
 
 3244. Earl of Eovmei/.'] You do not recommend that, do you, as a substitute 
 for the separate system ? 
 
 In cases where they did not wish to incur the expenditure of erecting more 
 separate cells, I think with a diiferent classification of the prisoners, these cells 
 would answer the purpose, instead of leaving the remainder of the prisoners, who 
 were not in separate cells, cmplo3'ed in associated rooms ; if they bad arranged to 
 erect separate cells on the old system, I should prefer it to tliis jilan, but I merely 
 recommend it with a view to reduce the cost. 
 
 3245. Lord If'odehouse.'] You woukl generally prefer in every case that the 
 system of separate cells should be established ? 
 
 I should. 
 
 324G. C/iiiiinuni.'] Have you ever turned your attention to any better system 
 for the identification of prisoners after previous conviction ? 
 
 Yes, 1 have dune so. I believe that at the present time, we cannot have a 
 system of penal discipline sufficiently stringent of itself to deter from crime. 
 I do not think, that anything we could do in prison, more especially now-a-days, 
 would be sufiicient of itself to deter a criminal, but that we must look to some 
 external procedure in conjunction with a stringent system of treatment to obtain 
 such a result. I believe that at the present time the Mant of records and know- 
 ledge cf the antecedents of prisoners who come to the county and borougli prisons 
 causes the large number of old offenders and old convicts, who are now under 
 detention in those prisons, to the detriment of the discipline of the establishment, 
 to the cost of the county rate, and, Morse than all, to the encouragement of 
 crime, because in every gaol there are at the same time novices in crime. ^Ve 
 find old convicts, who have probal)ly been under sentence of penal servitude 
 for a long period, who have been living for many years in crime, sentenced to a 
 month or six weeks' imprisonment, side by side with one who is just com- 
 mencing a criminal career ; and the effect upon the mind of the person who 
 has just commenced a career of crime, of knowing that such immunity exist 
 for an habitual criminal, must be fatal to what we want, which is the reduc- 
 tion of crime throughout the country. I should therefore wish to see some 
 arrangements and ap|)Iiances instituted which would serve, as far as possible, 
 to check such a state of things. I believe that if the ciiminal classes knew, 
 and those who are commencing crime knew, and those who are in reformatory 
 schools knew, that the end of a criminal career must infallably be a long sen- 
 tence of penal servitude, terminating with a civil disability, in the shape of super- 
 vision after liberation, because the man would then have proved himself to 
 belong to the criminal classes, the effect of that knowledge operating upon the 
 minds of those persons, would do more to reduce crime than any stringent pro- 
 ceeding that we could adopt inside our prisons. And one arrangement for 
 that purpose (it may appear a trifling one, but it is a very efficient one, I 
 can say, after many years' experience) is the institution of photogiaphy. I 
 believe that if every man were photographed when he came to prison the 
 first time, and if on the second conviction tliat photograph were sent to the head 
 of the police, it would have a very deterrent effect on the minds of prisoners. 
 In Ireland for many years we have been carrying out this plan, and I have 
 
 (37. 10.) " p p 4 brought
 
 304 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir W. Crofton, brought a sample with ine. We have a photograph taken of every man who 
 
 c. D. comes into the prison, and by a contract which we have entered into, we have 
 
 , . rr g„ . three of tliem for 1 s., and after the third for 4 d. each ; we can have as many as 
 
 \ \ ' we please to send round. This {prodiicbnj a pJwtograph) is the result of thai 
 
 expense. I can assure the Committee tliat tlie effect of the knowledge of this 
 procedure on the minds of prisoners can scarcely be exaggerated. ]Many people will 
 say that a man may make faces, and disguise himself while he is being photographed ; 
 that is quite true ; I found for the first fortnight that there was little else but 
 contortions on the part of the prisoners to evade this practice ; but after that 
 time there Averc no faces made, and they all subniilted to it. I am quite satisfied it 
 has a very great effect upon them, because the police then know them all, and 
 can trace them ; this practice, coupled with other procedure, will, I am satisfied, 
 have a very great effect in reducing crime, because it will lead at once to a man 
 being suspected and identified. AVe have an arrangement in Ireland in all the 
 county prisons which works extremely Avell ; whenever they have any oft'ender 
 whom they either suspect or know to be a convict, they send to the Directors' 
 office the particulars of the person of the man who is sent for trial in this form, 
 which I will hand to the Committee, which form is sent to every county gaol in 
 Ireland : 
 
 The Witness delivered in the following document: — 
 
 (Form 47.) 
 
 Gaol. 
 
 Particulars, Description, &c., of a Prisoner suspected or known to have been a 
 
 Discharged Convict. 
 
 Partiailars nnder which now in Custody. Description. 
 
 Name, A. B. Han-, brown. 
 
 Crime, picking pockets. Eyes, ditto. 
 
 Date of trial, 25 February 1862. Eyebrows, large. 
 
 Sentence, if passed, 10 years' P. S. Nose, medium. 
 
 Mouth, large. 
 Particulars of former Convictions as far as Complexion, rather sallow. 
 is hnown or, can he ascei-tained. Visage, round. 
 
 Make, stout. 
 Name, A. B. Height, 5 feet 5i inches. 
 
 County where tried, , Marks on person" D left breast; minus fore- 
 
 Date of conviction, 15 January 1852. fino-er left hand. 
 
 Crime, stealing from person. _ Present 'age, 28 years. 
 
 Sentence, seven years' transportation. Trade or callino' tailor. 
 
 When discharged from convict prison, Prison trade, ditto. 
 
 April 1856. Born at 
 
 Prison from which discharged, . Resided before committal at 
 
 Eriends reside at 
 
 Whether identified -, By letter from gaol, 
 as having been ( » , 
 a convict, and by ( 
 whom. J 
 
 Tu rnkey. 
 
 Observations. 
 
 Supposecl to have enlisted after discharge from prison. 
 
 Usual letter on form J, sent herewith. 
 
 This prisoner will be tried most likely on Tuesday next; an early reply is requested. 
 
 (signed) Governor, 
 
 23 February 1862. 
 
 Tried on 25/2/62 and sentenced on 26/2/62 
 to 10 years' P. 8., 
 
 (signed) Governor. 
 
 When the man is identified, and sent to trial, and found guilty, a letter of this 
 description is sent in every case from the Board of Directors to the governor of the 
 gaol to be laid on the desk of the judicial officer. 
 
 The
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE, 305 
 
 " The enclosed particulars of ( ) have been compared Sir W- Crofton, 
 
 with the books of this office, and are correct. In the event of b being Ibund c.i;. 
 
 guilty of the present charn-e, the Directors of Convict Prisons re([uest that the notice of the — — 
 
 Judge maybe particularly called to the circumstance of b being an ' liabitual 23d April 1 863, 
 
 offender,' with the view of b receiving a sentence proportionate to b per- 
 
 severance in pursuing a course of crime. Please to notify the result of the trial to this 
 office, and return the enclosure at the same time." 
 
 The case before your Lordships illustrates my view. A man for picking pockets 
 would probably, under ordinary circumstances, have had a very short period of im- 
 prisonmont in the Coimty Prison, but his antecedents being thoroughly known and 
 brought to light was the cause of his receiving 10 years' penal servitude. 
 
 3247. I understand that this system of photograjjhing is applied In Ireland only 
 to the case of penal servitude men ? 
 
 In some county gaols in Ireland, they have adopted it in other cases ; but I have 
 been referring in these cases to penal servitude men. I would carry it further, as I 
 have before stated, and use it for men under short sentences, and in conjunction 
 with the police when a man conies a second time back to prison. 
 
 3.24S. There could be no possible difficulty In applying it to persons in confine- 
 ment in county prisons r 
 
 None whatever ; it would be the greatest possible advantage. I could mention 
 twoother cases illustrating the same thing ; the extent to which it has enabled 
 Irisli county gaols to be cleared of old offenders who liave been convicts has been 
 very great. 
 
 3249. I understand, from the details whicli you have given the Committee, that 
 this communication enclosing the photograph of the convict is sent to the Directors' 
 office in Dublin ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3250. Would there be any difficulty in extending that system, and in having a 
 thorough communication bet\\een county prison and county prison ? 
 
 There would be no objection to it whatever ; it would be quite as easy as from 
 the Directors' Office. 
 
 32.51. It would simply involve a few more photographs and a few more 
 forms ? 
 That is all. 
 
 3252. Would it not in that point of view be very beneficial? 
 
 It would be exceedingly beneficial ; the ett'ect upon the criminal classes can 
 scarcely be exaggerated. I think that, while I am speaking on this subject, 
 I must make some observations with regard to the police. I know that there may 
 be many governors of county gaols in this country (because they have said so to 
 me) who are under the impression that the police would be rather hard upon some of 
 these criminals : that opinion was also placed before me in Ireland ; but after many 
 years' experience, I am quite positive in stating that I do not believe it would liaA'e 
 that effect at all. Now that we have a large jiolice- force which costs us about a 
 million and a half per annum, and with a limited transportation, I think it Is incum- 
 bent upon us to use them for this purpose. I believe that the i)olice at the present 
 time would dog a ci iminal about, in pursuance of their duty ; but if they were 
 co-operating with the governors of the gaols, and acting under information, 
 that system of dogging would altogether pass off. I found that tliere was 
 a system of dogging on the part of the police in Ireland before they were 
 co-operating with the jirison authorities ; but I have only had two or three 
 complaints of there being any dogging now. In fact, they have so much in- 
 formation now In tlieir hands, that it is unnecessary that they should dog 
 the criminal, and there is therefore far less espionage now than there was before ; 
 and so it would be in England. We make our police, in many counties, assistant 
 relieving officers for paupers ; and surely, if we entrust pauper cases to them, we 
 cannot hesitate about entrusting criminals to tlum. 
 
 32.53- Duke of Richmond.^ Is that done in England ? 
 
 Yes; in Wiltshire they are consulted with regard to paupers and vagrants, who 
 come to the Board and receive relief, and they act as assistant relieving officers. 
 That is not done in one county only ; but I know it of ray own knowledge to be 
 done In Wiltshire, because I am a magistrate there. 
 
 (37. 10.) Q Q 3254. Lord
 
 306 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 JSir W. Crofton, 3254. Lord Wodcliouse.'] Do the police receive payment for that ? 
 C.15, Yes. 
 
 tyd Apii! 1863. 3255. Is that pay charged to the police account? 
 Yes, and has been so for years ; and a very valuable proceeding it is. My ex- 
 perience of the police makes me believe that they have been inclined to assist well 
 infeniioned criminals whenever they could assist them: of course when they know 
 that a man is pursuing a course of crime, it is their business to follow him and 
 look after him ; the projtosed arrangement would afford them every opportunity 
 and facility for detecting him. 
 
 3256. Chuinncni.'] I understaiid that your view would be, that on the first con- 
 viction the punishment should be short and sharp and as decisive as possible, and 
 that as large an amount as possible of ])cnal labour by means of the treadwheel 
 should enter into it ; but that on subsequent convictions the sentence should be 
 considerably lengthened, and that where crime seems to become habitual and 
 professional, there should be what you term civil disability and supervision by the 
 police r 
 
 That is my very decided opinion. 
 
 3257. Duke of Zi'vc/;woHf/.] You stated, in answer to a question just now, that 
 there would be no difficulty in exchanging those photographs between the different 
 county gaols : would you mean that to apply to the whole of England, Take one 
 gaol, for instance, in any particular county : would you mean that that gaol should 
 exchange ])hotographs of all its prisoners v, ith every other gaol in England ? 
 
 No ; I would propose an exchange of photographs between prisons where there 
 are large congregations of the criminal classes, such as Liverpool, fcc, where there 
 would be a great number of peo^de in confinement. 
 
 3258. For instance, in Thetworth Gaol : what would you do there? 
 
 I should send a piiotograi)h to one or two of the surrounding gaols perhaps, 
 and to tlie head of the police. I should not take any further steits, but would 
 have the jdiotographs ready in case of any reference being made ; the very fact 
 of establishing a corrcs])ondence between the different gaols would of itself 
 give rise to photographs being sent very frequently. 
 
 32.';o- C/ifiiniia>i.~\ You would probably fix upon one or two of the ]irincipal 
 gaols in different parts of England, which vonid serve as depots where those 
 photogra[)hs could be ke])t, and where they co\ild be easily referred to ? 
 
 "i'es, and where the criminal classes would be likely to congregate. 
 
 3260. Are you aware that very often there is the strongest suspicion that a 
 prisoner has been previously convicted, but, from want of the means to identify 
 liim, it is impossible to prove itr 
 
 Yes ; and I think that that is fatal to the reduction of crime throughout the 
 country, because it enal)lcs a man to esca]ic with a very short sentence : that is an 
 evil annnigst others which pressingiy recjuires to be amended. 
 
 3261. Have you ever considered, with regard to identifying prisoners, the expe- 
 diencv of affixing a mark after the first conviction ? 
 
 "i'c's ; but I should rather try the systena I have proposed first, and see whether 
 we could not make a sensible reduction in crime : because any mark, to be of use, 
 would cling to a man for iife, and would interfere with his prospects after- 
 wards; I should be sorry to try it until we had exhausted every other means. 
 
 3262. \^'ould yon object to making an experiment of it, even after the first 
 conviction for felony ? 
 
 I should not like to make an experiment of it until I had tried my plan, and 
 then, if that failed, I sliould not object ; but I do not think it would fail. 
 
 3263. What is your opinion with regard to corporal punishment for ofTences 
 against j)rison disfij)line ? 
 
 I should wish to retain the power of corporal punishment, though I have not 
 used it in the Irish convict prisons for the last three-and-a-half years ; but the 
 retention of the jjower I am sure is valuable. I do not, however, believe that it is 
 as deterring as people generally su[)pose. 
 
 3264. Are
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 307 
 
 3264. Are there not some classes of offenders witli wlinm no other punishment Sir W. Crqfto7i, 
 has any force or terror except that of corporal ])unishment f c.b. 
 
 I could not say so, because I liave known many inisouers upon whom corporal asd April iSS'^ 
 
 punishment ha'; had no effect whatever ; I have subdued them by other means, '. 
 
 such as by working them in chains, and reducing their food. In the convict prisons 
 in Ireland we have wliat is called an idle class, for men who do not do their work 
 properly, and get very little food in consequence ; others, who are dangerous men, 
 who would be perhaps deemed subjects for corporal punishment, but with regard to 
 whom it has been found tl'.at corporal punishment has not answered ; we w^ork them 
 in chains, and find that to be effective. At the same time, as 1 said before, 
 there may be cases in which corporal punishment might succeed, and I should be 
 very sorry to see it abolished, 
 
 326^. Do you believe that, under the present system, the inequality of sentences 
 and diffei-ence of treatment in different gaols is a matter which is calculated upon 
 by the prisoners ? 
 
 I tliink it is, and it enters into their calculation so much as to influence them 
 in deciding what district would present the best field for robbing ; I am satisfied 
 that an old criminal can tell the dietary of county and convict prisons, and any- 
 thing else relating to them; I think it is a great element of consideration with 
 them. 
 
 3266. Some prisons are feared, and others, on the contrary, are considered very 
 indulgent in their system? 
 
 There is no question about it. 
 
 ■V2G7. Do you believe that offences are ever committed with the view of beino- 
 committed to prison .'- 
 
 No, I have no general belief in that; I have often heard prisoners say so when 
 they were brought up for trial, but I have no belief in their statement. 
 
 3268. Do you not believe that workhouse offences are sometimes committed in 
 order to gain admittance to gaols r 
 
 They state so out of bravado before the judge, hut I do not believe in it; pri- 
 soners have repeateilly told me that they have made those statements more out of 
 bravado than anything else. By adopting what 1 have been suggesting, you 
 would make an essential difference between the pauper and the criminal, 
 because you M'ould subject the confirmed criminal to a civil disabilitv; there 
 would always be a difficulty in keeping the diet of a prisoner under that of a 
 pauper, because the ])auper dietary is very low ; but if we accompanied our prison 
 treatment with civil disabilities and long sentences, we should cutaway the ground 
 of favourable comparison between the state of the criminal and the pauper. 
 
 32(19. Chairman.'] Do you believe that there is such an amount of demoraliza- 
 tion in workhouses as tends to increase crime in the country, and augments the 
 numlter of persons who are committed to prison ? 
 
 I am sorry to say that 1 believe, in many cases, there is. 
 
 3270. Are you speaking of England or of Ireland, or of both f 
 I am speaking of both of them, 
 
 3271. You believe that the associated system in workhouses does directly con- 
 tribute to fill the prisons? 
 
 I think so, indeed ; but, with regard to the workhouses, both in England and 
 in Ireland, there is very much to be said for those who have the management of 
 them, because they have criminals there as well as paupers. When a criminal 
 goes to the workhouse, they cannot refuse to receive him, and therefore he con- 
 taminates others, and creates a great deal of mischief; I have known many such 
 cases in Ireland ; I have seen convicts in workhouses in associated employment 
 with the paupers, and of coarse that does a great deal of mischief; but we cannot 
 entirely blame the workhouse authorities, because in many cases they have no 
 proper means of classification. 
 
 3272. Can you suggest any remedy for that beyond classification ? 
 Not beyond classification. 
 
 3273. Do you think that a classification might be adopted sufficiently simple 
 and easy for that purpose r 
 
 I have no doubt of it. 
 
 (37. 10.) Q Q 2 . 3274/That
 
 308 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 H/i- W. Crofton, .3274. That would be in your opinion very desirable r 
 ^■^- Most desirable. 
 
 23d April 1863. 3275. And as regards the prisons themselves, you Avould wish to see o-j-eater 
 uniformity in diet, and in the labour, and in the general treatment pursued in the 
 prisons r 
 
 Yes, certainly. 
 
 3276. Is there any other point which you would wish to explain or suQoost to 
 the Committee r 
 
 There is one improvement which I should ho]je to find effected at an early day, 
 namely, tliat criminals sentenced to above 12 months" imprisonment, should not 
 be kept in the county prisons at all, but should be removed to the convict prisons ; 
 that after a 12 months' sentence, the next should be a very long sentence of 
 penal servitude, to be carried out in the convict establishments. 
 
 3277. Supposing that the sentences, as regards county jirisons, were reduced to 
 one year, would you propose that the prisoner, after leaving a county prison, and 
 being admitted to a Government convict prison, should enter upon a course of 
 association, or that the strict separation of the county prisons should be continued 
 in the Government prisons ? 
 
 That the strict separation should be continued with them in the Government 
 prisons. 
 
 3278. For how long? 
 
 The ordinary period is nine months. 
 
 3279. Therefore, I understand, from your answer, that a prisoner who is com- 
 mitted for two years, would have first of all, one year of separate confinement in 
 the county prison, and then nine months of separate confinement in the Govern- 
 ment pri.-on ? 
 
 I am afraid I liave not made myself very clear; I mean that there sluuild be no 
 intermediate sentence between one years imprisonment in the county prison and 
 a long sentence of penal servitude in the convict prison ; that the maximum 
 sentence to the county prison should be 12 months, and the next sentence either 
 six years or seven years' penal servitude ; jiractically, there are very few sentences 
 of two and three years imjirisonment now. 
 
 328c. Lord Wodchousc.'] You propose to abolish all sentences between a year 
 and penal servitude ? 
 Yes. 
 
 3281. What would be the lowest term of penal servitude to which you M'ould 
 sentence a prisoner ? 
 
 My own desire would be seven years' penal servitude ; but I must explain in 
 • mentioning tjiat time, that seven years' jieiial servitude is now the substitute for 
 the old sentence of seven years' transportation. Formerly we had two years' and 
 three years' imjirisonment as we have now, and then there was a jump to seven 
 years' transportation. Seven years' penal servitude is now intended to take the 
 place of seven years' transportation ; and as we all know that a great ])ortion of 
 this period is remitted, and that in cases of good conduct it is only five years' and 
 three months' imprisonment, I would have nothing intermediate between the seven 
 years' penal servitude and the one year's imprisonment in the county gaol. 
 
 3282. Earl of Roninaj.'] Practically, since the alteration of the law which has in- 
 stituted the system of penal servitude, has not the ])ractice rather been that three 
 or four years' ]ienal servitude has taken the place of Avhat used to be seven years' 
 transport;ition r 
 
 Unfortunatcly that has been the case, and that is why I wish to abolish those 
 sentences, and to revert to the old practice of seven years. 
 
 3282. Duke oi liidimond.'] Have yon ever considered what effect the daily chapel 
 has upon the prisoner, whether it lias that eflect upon him which one would desire 
 it to have, or whether from its being more or less of a routine nature, they disre- 
 gard it as a ])art of religious duty ? 
 
 My impression is that it attains very much of a routine chai'actcr by having it 
 every day. 
 
 3283. Would
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 309 
 
 3283. Would you think it advisable, then, to have it saj twice on the Sunday, Sir W. CiJ'/u/i, 
 and twice during the week ? "^^ "• 
 
 In the Convict Prison at Mountjoy, Dublin, we have Protestant service twice 00a a^ !?(;■! 
 on Sunday and once during the week. The chaplain sees the prisoners in their '' ' " 
 
 cells at other times, but the public service is only as I have mentioned. 
 
 3284. Chairma}i.~\ Are you in favour of the separation of prisoner from prisoner 
 in chapel during the period of separate confinement ? 
 
 No ; I think that the officers have not that control over them which they have 
 when they can see them all. 
 
 3285. Your objection is a mechanical one? . 
 Yes. 
 
 3286. Provided that you could contrive such a disposition of the prisoners as 
 would bring them all within sight of the officers on duty, would you prefer to have 
 them in separate stalls, rather than side by side and touching each other ? 
 
 I believe there is very little use in the separate stalls ; I removed them in 
 Dublin for this reason ; but it is a diO'erent reason from what would apply in 
 county prisons. I thought it was useless to keep prisoners distinct from each 
 other in chajiel for nine months, when they would have to meet on the public 
 works immediately alterwards ; therefore the stalls were removed ; I took masks 
 away for the same reason, but I think perhaps that masks might be advantageously 
 used in county prisons. 
 
 3287. Is not a mask very often a protection and an advantage to a well-dis 
 posed prisoner, as preventing recognition on his leaving prison ? 
 
 Yes, no doubt ; but I think it has a deterrent effect upon the man himself. 
 
 32 8 8. Do they dislike it? 
 
 Yes, there is no question about it. 
 
 3289. Lord Stewai'd.] Would you administer instruction in the school-room 
 separately ? 
 
 In the Irish convict prisons it is administered in the scliool-room without any 
 separation. I suppose in a county prison they Mould prefer doing the same to 
 giving cellular instruction, but in county prisons I should prefer instruction in the 
 cells. I should like to keep prisoners as distinct and separate as possible, 
 especially those who are in prison for very short periods. 
 
 3290. C/iainiian.'] Are you of opinion that the Discharged Prisoners' Aid 
 Societies, which have been established in many parts of the country, are beneficial 
 to prisoners on leaving })rison ? 
 
 Very much so. I am a member of the Discharged Prisoners' Aid Society in 
 London, and have been so for very many years. I believe that these societies 
 could be e.xtended with the greatest advantage; but in cases where no Dis- 
 charged Prisoners' Aid Societies exist, I should recommend, that whatever the men 
 earn in the prisons, be paid through the police. 
 
 3291 . Wherever the extra gratuities which you have spoken of do exist, you very 
 much prefer their being paid through the police ? 
 
 Yes, they might be very beneficially paid tluouiih them. 
 
 3292. Lord Wodehouse.^ You would not pay to the men the whole of what 
 they earn, would you? 
 
 No ; I should fix a certain amount upon each article ; and the more the prisoner 
 worked, the more (within certain limits) he would receive. I am quite positive, 
 that the county would get back the gratuity, and more than that, in the extra 
 work performed by the men. 
 
 3293. Karl Cathcart.'] Are you aware of the Act of Parliament of last Session, 
 which gives power to the visiting justices to give to a prisoner, on his discharge 
 from prison, to the amount of 2/. from the county rates? 
 
 Yes, I am aware of it ; but 1 imagine that they liad the power before that period. 
 
 ■ 
 
 3294. C ould you state to the Committee whether, in your opinion, there is any 
 broad and general distinction to be drawn between the treatment of prisoners in 
 the county prisons in Ireland and those in the county or borough prisons in 
 England ? 
 
 (37. 10.) Q Q 3 No,
 
 •^10 ^ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Sir IV. Cr^fton, No, I do not consider that there is ; they are quite as various in their different 
 ^ modes of treatment as they are iu England, both in their location, their dietary 
 
 23dApnli8G3. and in their labour. 
 
 ■ 3'295- The separate system in Ireland is supposed to lie at the root of prison 
 
 discipline, just as much as it is in England ? 
 
 Quite as much ; and, I think those that have adopted it have experienced the 
 best results from it. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to To-morrow, One o'clock.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 311 
 
 Die Veneris, 24'' Ajwilis 1863. 
 
 L ORDS PRESENT: 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon, 
 
 Earl of EoMNET. 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Lord "Wensleydale. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON in the Chair. 
 
 WILLIAM OAKLEY, Esquire, is called in, and examined as follows : Evidence on 
 
 Prison Discipline. 
 
 3296. Chairman:] YOU hold the appointment, I believe, of Governor of W. Oahley, Esq. 
 
 Taunion Gaol? .. . T oc 
 
 Yeg 24th April 1863. 
 
 3297. For how many years have you held that office? 
 
 Nearly 12 years, and for about the 10 previous years I held the appointment 
 of chief of the Bath police, and superintendent of constabulary in Essex. 
 
 3298. During that time have you considered amongst other parts of prison 
 discipline the question of dietary ? 
 
 I have. 
 
 3299. And have you considered it specially with regard to the dietaries of 
 workiiouses? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3300. You have prepared, have you not, returns showing the dietary in 50 
 county goals in England, and in 46 unions ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3301. Will you be good enough to put in those returns, and state very briefly 
 to the Committee what the general purport of them is? 
 
 I have taken simply the highest class of diet both in the county gaols and in 
 the unions, and have tabulated them for one week, and the result is, that on the 
 average of the 50 county gaols, 267 ounces of solid food, and 17 pints of liquid 
 food, is given per week to the prisoners; and in the 46 union workhouses in 
 Somerset, Devon, Dorset, Wilts, and two in Middlesex, the solid food given to 
 adult paupers is 202 ounces, and '[Q pints of liquid food. 
 
 3302. What is the difference therefore as against workhouses ? 
 
 A difference ot 65 ounces of solid, and one pint of liquid, between the food 
 given to an able-bodied pauper and an able-bodied prisoner confined in a county 
 prison over three months. 
 
 3303. Not including the aged and infirm in the workhouse wards ? 
 
 No ; I have all the returns showing that, but I have not tabulated these cases. 
 
 3304. I conclude that those gaols have not been picked with any particular 
 motive, but have been taken generally? 
 
 I wrote to all the county gaols of England and Wales, and have tabulated all 
 the answers that I have received, and the same with the unions. 
 
 (37. 11.) Q Q 4 3305. Which
 
 312 MINUTES OS EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 II'. o.tMey, Esq. 3305. Which are these gaols where the dietary stands highest ? 
 Somerset and Huntingdon. 
 
 24lli April 1863. 
 
 3306. Huntin2:don stands at 333 ozs. of solid food, and 16 !)ints of liquid? 
 Yes ; there was no other gaol, except Somerset, approaching- that; in Somer- 
 set it is 291 ozs. of solid food, and 17 pints of h'quid. 
 
 3307. Have you a return of the Hedford prison? 
 
 Yes; Bedford is 282 ozs. of solid food, and 17 pints of liquid. 
 
 3308. Marquess of 5'rt//.s5w/7/.] Can you state what it is in Hertfordshire? 
 The same as in Bedford, 282 ozs. of solid food, and 17 pints of liquid ; in fact, 
 
 it is what I believe is generally called the Government scale. 
 
 3300. Chairmai/.l From 280 to 285 ozs. seems to be the general proportion? 
 Yes ; some gaols are less than that. 
 
 3310. Will you mention two or three of the lowest ? 
 
 At Pembroke they give no meat at all; there they give 2S0 ozs. of bread, 
 seven ozs. of butter, and 3S j pints of tea or gruel. The other lower gaols are 
 northern gaols. In Northumberland they give 160 ozs. of solid food, and 
 17 pints of liquid. My attention was called to tliat subject most particularly in 
 consequence of the great number of paupers from different unions being com- 
 mitted to gaol, and stating that they committed offences in the unions for the 
 purpose of coming to get a better dietary at the gaol. I am now referring to 
 unions in the county of Somerset, of which county gaol I am the governor. 
 
 3311. I observe in the list of workhouses, of which you have given the 
 dietaries, that meat appears to exist in every case ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 331 2. Are you aware that there are some workhouses in tlie country Avhere no 
 meat at all is allowed '? 
 No, I am not. 
 
 33 1 3. Are you aware, also, that in many cases the meat consists solely of so 
 much bacon ? 
 
 Yes, I am. 
 
 3314. I conclude, on the other hand, that in all the gaols, as far as you are 
 acquainted with them, when meat is specified as one of the items of the dietary, 
 it is something beyond bacon ? 
 
 Yes; always beef or mutton; generally beef without bone. 
 
 331.5. So that there would be a difference in favour of the gaols, not only as 
 respects the quantity, but also as respects the quality of the food r 
 
 Yes, certainly ; it is a very common complaint made by paupers coming to the 
 gaol from unions that they have suet jniddings which have become musty, and 
 that the food generally is bad, and not so good as supplied in the gaols; of course 
 the statement of those paupers must be taken with a great deal of reserve, but 
 it is repeated so often from some unions, that one is almost compelled to believe 
 the statement is true. Shortly before I took the appointment of governor of the 
 gaol, a boy from one union actually threu- himself under the treadwheel, and 
 was killed ; he had stated previously that he would not go back to the union, 
 and that he would do something to avoid going back. 
 
 3316. Duke of liichmoiuL] And therefore he committed suicide ? 
 
 Yes. In another case, which came under my own notice, four boys were tried 
 at the county sessions at Bridgewatcr for stealing food, and there was, 1 believe, 
 no doubt that at the union the meat had been im{)roperly appropriated by the 
 union oflicers on the Board days, so that the paupers really got nothing but 
 water and onions, instead of having meat, in their soup. 
 
 3317. Did that come out in evidence? 
 It did. 
 
 3318. Were the four boys you mentioned convicted ? 
 
 Yes, they were convicted of stealing ; and there was no question that they 
 did steal. One was admitted as evidence, and the three others were sentenced 
 to one month and four days at Wilton, now called Taunton Gaol, and two of 
 them were whipped. 
 
 3319. But
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 313 
 
 3319. But you stated, did y-u not, that the male officers in the union had w. Oaklexj, Esq. 
 appropriated tlie food ? 
 
 They had, and they were all discharged afterwards ; i)ut there had been 24th April 1863. 
 
 re|)eated complaints trorn the same union. This happened some years ago ; but ■ 
 
 up to no longer ago than last week a man was disciiarged from the gaol, having 
 come into the gaol with the itch; he stated that he had applied for medical 
 treatment at the union, and had not received it ; he was so bad with it in tlie 
 gaol, that he was obliged to be kept in bed, and treated for it the whole of the 
 time that he was in the gaol ; whether his statements were true or not it was 
 impossible to tell, but he said that he had committed an offence in the union for 
 the purpose of coming to the gaol to get medical ireatnient in the gaol, and better 
 food. 
 
 3320. Chuinnan.] Has it, in fact, been frequently represented to you by 
 prisoners, that they have committed an oflence in the workhouse, in order to 
 obtain admission to the gaol ? 
 
 Yes, repeatedly ; not only to me, but to the visiting- justices as well. 
 
 3321. Do you entertain any doubt as to the truth of such statement : 
 None. 
 
 3322. Looking at tlie accommodation which is given to prisoners, the cells, 
 the clothing, and the bidding, do you believe that it is very superior accommo- 
 dation to that which they would receive in the workhouse ? 
 
 I do ; at le ;st it is so in those prisons which have come under my own 
 observation. There is, of course, a difference in prisoners being kept in separate 
 confinement ; 1 believe that that is thought a severe punishment by most pri- 
 soners. 
 
 3323. Is what you have stated vvitli regard to the accommodation in union 
 workhouses within your own knowledge ? 
 
 I am speaking within my own knowledge. Some unions are very much better 
 than others ; but having gone over many unions, I believe thai, taking the 
 bedding, and clothing, and food, the prisoners are very much better treated than 
 the paupers in the unions, liie punishment to prisoners being the separate 
 conlinement. 
 
 3324. Is there hard labour in the gaol at Taunton ? • 
 There is. 
 
 3325. What are the means by whicli hard labour is imposed ? 
 
 The treadwheel in a few cases, and stone l)reaking, and various industrial 
 trades ; flax dressing, weaving, mat-making, tiiiloring, and shoemaking. 
 
 3326. jLord StetcarcL] You do not call such employment hard labour, do 
 you? 
 
 It is given as hard labour, the treadwheel being used only in exceptional 
 cases. I am not aware of anv provision under which a prisoner sentenced to 
 hard labour is required to be jjlaced on the treadwheel. 
 
 3327. Chairman.^ What labour do you inflict upon idle or refractory paupers 
 or vagrants, a class of men who are very much to be found in gaols : 
 
 Generally stone breaking. There may be cases in which a prisoner does not 
 conduct himself well in the gaol, or has been several times convicted, and he 
 would be put upon the treadwheel, the treadwheel being only used for sucli 
 exceptional cases. 
 
 3328. Lord Steward.] If a jirisoner is sentenced to a term of imprisonment 
 with hard labour, do you think that you arc carrying that sentence into effect 
 by employing him in what yo:: term industrial employments ? 
 
 It has been so considered bv the visiting justices and magistrates of the 
 county, that bein^i the arrangement made for labour. 
 
 3329. Is it your opinion that mat-making and so forth do amount to hard 
 labour ? 
 
 Yes ; but I do not consider that it is sufficient hard labour, inasmuch as they 
 are not kept a sufficient number of hours at that labour. I believe that the 
 industrial labour is very beneficial indeed, and the reason why I venture to state 
 
 (37. 11.) R u so
 
 314 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W.Oakley, Esq. SO is, that in a return whicli I prepared the year before last the number of 
 
 re-committals, where only stone breaking, oakum picking, and treadwheel labour 
 
 34th April 1863. ijad been used daring five years, was very much move than during five years in 
 " which industrial labour had been introduced to a limited extent. The five years 
 
 of oakum picking and treadwheel labour were from 1852 to 1856, and the 
 average number of prisoners received during those five years was 740, and the 
 number of re-coramittals 227. The five years of useful employment to a limited 
 e.xtent were 1857 to J 861, during which time the number of prisoners was 623, 
 and the number of re-committals only 145. 
 
 3330. Earl of Romnej/.^ You stated that there are exceptional cases in which 
 you use the treadwheel ; in respect to what are those exceptions made ? 
 
 Repeated misconduct in tlie gaol, and refusing to do industrial employment 
 •properly, and negligence in industrial work ; in such cases I find the tread- 
 wheel most beneficial. 
 
 3331. .Are the Committee to understand that is not ever given as carrying out 
 the original sentence, but as a punishment for misconduct in gaol'? 
 
 Yes ; or refusing to work properly. It is not given as obligatory to carry out 
 a sentence. It has been in use more of late, in consequence of 100 pi-isoners 
 from the county of Middlesex from CoLlbath Fields being at Taunton. During 
 the six months that those prisoners have been there, the treadwheel has been 
 extensively resorted to ; but as regards the great number of prisoners, they do 
 the industrial labour very w^ell, although my belief is, that they have not, l)y any 
 means, a sufficient amount of labour. They are not a sufficient number of hours 
 at work, nor do they work sufficiently hard ; partly in consecpience of the arrauije- 
 ments of the gaol as regards the officers' duties and the necessity of taking of 
 them to school, one of the rules of the gaol being, that they should go to school, 
 notwithstanding that it may interfere with the hours of labour. 
 
 3332. Earl of Ducie.^ What is given in many gaols as ordinary hard labour is 
 reserved in your prison as a punishment for prison offences r 
 
 Yes, and exceptional cases. I believe that in most gaols the treadwheels are 
 not sufficiently extensive to work all the prisoners at any one time under sen- 
 tence of hard labour. 
 
 3333. Lord Steward.^ Do you attribute the diminished number of re-commit- 
 tals in the second period that you have mentioned to reforming, or to the deterrent 
 efiect produced by industrial employment in lieu of labour on the treadwheel ? 
 
 To both, with separate confinement. I think that a pri,soner, having been 
 compelled to work hard when his term of imprisonment is up, calculates the 
 chances, between work and thieving, and he finds that work is not quite so hard 
 as he might have thouglit it before, and he is disposed to work it he possibly can; 
 whereas, in the case of prisoners working on the treadwheel only, I believe that, 
 after a time, they become used to it, and it is not deterring, and they become 
 hardened and revengeful under the treadwheel, when kept entirely to it. 
 
 3334. Is your treadwheel applied to any productive purpose ? 
 
 It is now only applied to pumping water ; formerly it was used for grinding 
 corn ; but it was such a great loss to the county from its being used for grinding 
 corn, that it was discontinued for sometime ; it is now used for pumping water 
 for the supply of part of the prison. 
 
 3335. Lord Wensleydalc] Why was the grinding of corn at Taunton Gaol 
 given up ? 
 
 Bi cause it Avas found to be a great loss to the county ; for instance, 24 men 
 would only grind one busiiel of corn in an hour by the treadwheel, for which 
 only 4 r/. would he received, so that grinding corn would not, by any means, 
 pay the wages of tlie guard employed as a miller. 
 
 3336. Marquess of Salishury.'] Was not that the fault of the mill ; could 
 not they have made the mill go much more rapidly if they had chosen? 
 
 No ; the iread wheel is restricted to a certain number of revolutions in an hour. 
 I found at Coldbath Fields Prison, which I visited a little while ago, that about 
 the same was tlie case ; not more than one bushel of corn was ground on the 
 average by 24 men in an hour. 
 
 3337. That
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 313 
 
 3337- That is the fault of the machinery, is it not ? /F, Oakley, Esq. 
 Yes, to some extent. I have recommended to the visiting magistrates of — ~ 
 
 Taunton Gaol the adoption of treadwheel labour as applied to the machinery for '^ 4ti P" 180 3. 
 flax dressing, which, I believe, would be extremely useful, by using multiplying 
 wheels, and then, I believe, that the treadwheel might be made to pay. 
 
 3338- Clunnnaii.~\ Is there any reason why the treadwheel should not be 
 employed for productive labour? 
 
 I think not; I recommend that in Somerset it should be applied to flax dressing. 
 
 3339. Lord Stewai'd.] Irrespective of the question of expense, you prefer 
 industrial employment to the treadwheel as a means of enforcing hard labour ? 
 
 Yes, I do, excepting in certain cases. With many prisoners I have found 
 that keepinjj them to work at industrial labour induces them to take to 
 work after they are discharged from gaol ; whereas the treadwheel tends rather 
 to harden them, without, after they have been on the wheel for some time, 
 punishing them to so great an extent as is desirable, and they have not been 
 tauglit in any way to earn their own livelihood when their time is up. 
 
 3341. Earl of Romney.'] If they have a mode of obtaining their livelihood 
 before they come in, they may return to it, may they not ? 
 
 It is in those cases where men have led an idle life, many of them being pro- 
 fessional thieves wlio have never learned to work at all, that I think the advan- 
 tage of teaching them to work is so great. It is very difficult for prisoners on 
 discharge from gaol to obtain work. I believe that establishments should be 
 provided, where prisoners inclined to work, might be sent at the expiration of 
 imprisonment for a first offence. 
 
 3341. Lord Sttioard.'] Your object is to reform rather than to deter, is 
 it not? 
 
 1 wish to do both ; I wish, by keeping them to hard work, and making the 
 work as hard as it is possible to do, to give them habits of labour, M'hich I 
 believe will both deter from crime, aud induce them to work when their period 
 of imprisonment is expired. 
 
 3342. Duke of Richmond?^ Are the Committee to understand you to state 
 that the hard \york which you think induces a prisoner to become an industrious 
 man when he 'zoes out of prison is mat-making? 
 
 Any industrial labour, such as tailoring, shoemaking, mat-making, and flax 
 dressing. I have recommended flax dressing particularly for Somerset, because 
 flax is grown to such an extent in the county, that it would interfere less with free 
 labour than any other occupation. Flax dressing under the plan that I propose 
 would be as hard labour as could well be devised next to the treadwheel ; the tiead- 
 wheel is very hard work for a certain time for men tliat liave not been used to it, 
 but after a while they become used to it, and I think they do not care much for it. 
 
 3343. I understand you to say that you have conversed with a vast number 
 of paupers who come in for workhouse offences, and the result of that conversa- 
 tion led you to believe that they prefer coming to the gaol to remaining in the 
 workhouse ? 
 
 Yes; that statement has been repeated by many paupers, not only to myself, 
 but to the visiting justices. 
 
 3344. What is the general length of sentence which the paupers you have 
 been speaking of have been sentenced to I 
 
 Various periods. I have only taken account of the number, and not of the 
 average period of imprisonment : perhaps the average would be three months. 
 
 3345- Could you state what the ofl'ences are ? 
 
 In the cases to which I refer they have been chiefly sent to prison after 
 repeated offences in the union, such as breaking windows, tearing up clothes, 
 and offences of that kind. 
 
 3346. Would not the average sentence for such offences be three weeks rather 
 than three uionths ? 
 
 My answer applied more particularly to those cases in which prisoners had 
 
 made complaint of the bad diet in the union. They were ueiierally persons who 
 
 had repeatedly committed the oftence for w hich thc'v had been sometimes sent to 
 
 (37. 11.) R R 2 prison
 
 316 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. Oakley, Esq. pi'ison four or five times ; in tliose cases, I think, the averaize might amount to 
 
 . three months; but in cases where theoHence had not been repeatedly committed, 
 
 24th April 1863- they would probably be sent to prison, some for one week, some for three weeks, 
 
 — as the case might be. 
 
 3347. Do you think that if those paupers were sent to gaol for workhouse 
 offences, and were worked hard upon the tread wheel, they would be as uilling 
 to come hack to gaol as you state you have found them ? , 
 
 I think that many of them would not care to come back. At one time a greater 
 number of prisoners in Taunton Gaol were put upon the treadwbeel, and the 
 evidence of tiie fewer committals has been since the treadwbeel was discon- 
 tinued. 
 
 3348. Then do the Committee understand you to state that since the tread- 
 wheel has been discontinued, the paupers have disliked coming to gaol more than 
 before r 
 
 I Am not speaking of the paupers in that case. 
 
 3349. My question now solely relates to paupers ; to that class of persons 
 who, you state, prefer coming to gaol to remaining in the workhouse ; are you of 
 opinion that they would be as willing to come into tl.e gaol if, when they did 
 come to gaol, they were uorked hard iiuon the treadwiieel ? 
 
 I believe tliat the putting them on the tieadvv'heel would make very little 
 difTerence indeed. Any able-bodied man, if certitied by the surgeon as fit to 
 work upon the treadwbeel, can be put ujxtn the treadwbeel; but those men who 
 are no doubt the most idle of all, care but little for the treadwbeel ; that is my 
 experience. 
 
 3350. Lord Steward.^ Have you ascertained, as a fact, that many prisoners 
 who have been discharged from Taunton Gaol since the discontinuance of what 
 raav be properly called hard labour, have, in fact, become industrious labourers ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 33'; I. Do you know tiiat of your own knowledge ? 
 
 les; but your Lordship's question would lead to the supposition that the 
 treadwbeel is entirely discontinued ; whereas it is not so ; the treadwbeel is still 
 in use to a limited e\tent. 
 
 3352. Duke of RichmondP\ Are the Committee to gather from your evidence, 
 more especially now as regards the class of paupers of whom we have now been 
 speaking, that industrial labour has a more deterring effect upon them, than 
 hard labour upon the treadwbeel ? 
 
 That is my opinion. 
 
 3353- Upon paupers and upon vagrants? 
 
 Yes, upon vagrants certainly. 1 mean that it deters them from coming to 
 gaol ; with regard to the fear of it, 1 do not think they fear either the treaduheel 
 or industrial labour. 
 
 3354. Lord Wenslei/daJe.] Do they get employment elsewhere? 
 Yes, the}' get employment when their time is up, if they possibly can. 
 
 33.55. Duke of Richmond.'] In fact, they would rather work upon the tread- 
 wheel than make mats? 
 
 No, 1 do not say that. 
 
 33.56. That was the result of your former answer, because you gave us two 
 periods, in one of which hard labour on the treadwbeel was in existence, during 
 wiiicb time you sta'cd that there were more recommittals than during the period 
 when industrial labour was in operation ; therefore, the deduction to be drawn 
 from that would seem to be, that tl'.cy preferred the treadwbeel to mat making? 
 
 It would be diiiicult for me to say that they would prefer workmg to the 
 treadwbeel. 1 tliink that if they were kept entirely to the treadwbeel the whole 
 of the period they ^^ ere in gaol, that would have a less deteiring and less bene- 
 ficial effect than if tiiey were put to mat making, for instance, or any industrial 
 labour with the treadwheel to resort to, provided they did- not do that work 
 properly. 
 
 3357- Chainnan.]
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 317 
 
 3357. C/iairiiumJ] Is it your opinion, with regard to your last answer to the |j-. Oahky, Esq. 
 noble Duke, that the class of men from whom vagrants come, and who are sent — ;- 
 from unions for workhou'^e offences over and over again, are a class of men who '^4th April 5863. 
 may benefit by any industrial occupation, and are trained into becoming hunest , 
 
 and respectable men ? 
 
 In some cases 1 have found that they are ; not in many cases, certainly, but 
 in some. 
 
 3358. Do vou not believe that as a class ihey are positively the most incor- 
 rigible persons with whom vou have to deal? 
 
 Yes.' 
 
 3359. And therefore that those who are benefited are very rare exceptions ? 
 Yes. 
 
 3360. Would you still, in spite of that fact, hold to the opinion that industrial 
 occupation was the most deterring punishment that you could inflict upon those 
 men r 
 
 Yes; keeping the treadwheel to resort to in cases where they did not do their 
 industrial work properly. I started, I think, by saving that I did not believe 
 that anv prisoners were kept sufficiently hard at industrial employment, and 
 that the number of hours they were at work was not sufficiently long. 
 
 3361. How many hours are they at industrial occupation ? 
 About nine hours and a half. 
 
 3362. What additional time would you recommend ? 
 
 One hour and a-half, or altogether eleven, and with the power to compel them 
 to do a sufficient amount of work. 
 
 3363. Are you not aware that the Act of Parliament limits the number of 
 hours of work to ten ? 
 
 Yes, unfortunately that is so ; and it also gives power to take out of that tea 
 hours a certain amount of time for school. 
 
 3364. But do you apply school instruction to vai^rants and paupers who are 
 committed to prison for a week or a fortnight ? 
 
 if they apply for it under the gaol rules, they are bound to be allowed to go 
 to school, notwithstanding that it may interfere with the labour. Under the 
 rules for the guidance of the governor of the Somerset County Gaol, it is pro- 
 vided that he shall see that all prisoners, including those sentenced to hard 
 labour, have sucli an amount of time allowed to tiiem for the instruction as 
 the chaplain may think proper, whether such instruction withdraws them Irom 
 their labour for a time or not. 
 
 3365. But that makes the instruction dependent, does it not, upon the chaplain, 
 and not upon the prisoner ? 
 
 Yes ; but generally where a prisoner applies to go to school, the chaplain 
 recommends it. 
 
 3366. Would the chaplain be likely to agree to the request of a prisoner if 
 the prisoner were simply committed for seven days ? 
 
 I think not. 
 
 3367. Therefore, that rule would not intert'ere with your keeping prisoners at 
 work for the full ten hours allowed bv the Act of Parliament ? 
 
 No. 
 
 3368. Lord Steivard.] Do you think that the scale of dietary in Taunton Gaol 
 is too high r 
 
 Yes; it is higher than almost every other gaol in the Kingdom. 
 
 3369. Setting aside the cases of invalids, have you considered what the scale 
 of diet ought to be for adult prisoners ? 
 
 In a report to the visiting justices last Novem^her, I ventured to lecoinniend 
 tlyee or tour gaols princi|)ally in the North of England as the best from which 
 the scale ot diet should be adopted : on reference, I find thuse naols were Cum- 
 berland, Derby, Sussex and Westmoreland. I thought that the dietaries of those 
 
 (37. 11.) R R 3 gaols
 
 318 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. Oakley, Esq. gaols weie tile best from which one should be founded for the county gaol of 
 
 Somerset, and the visiting magistrates, in a report to the Secretary of State, 
 
 24th April 1863. expressed their opinion that the dietary of Taunton Gaol should be altered, parti- 
 
 cularly mentioning one point, namely, that convicted prisonm's should be kept for 
 
 the first week on bread and w ater. 
 
 3370. Duke of Richmond.'] What Sussex Gaol do you allude to ? 
 Lewes. They do not appear to give any meat at all in Lewes Gaol. 
 
 3371. Lord Stetvard.] Have you generally found a reduction in the quantity of 
 food to be an effectual punishment ? 
 
 Yes ; I have ventured also to report to tht- visiting justices my belief that a low 
 diet ought to form one of the principal ingredients in the punishment of prisoners. 
 
 3372. Do you consider that you would he justified in discharging prisoners in 
 • a lower state of health than that in wiiich they were when they were admitted ? 
 
 No ; but my belief is that they are much better fed in most gaols than they 
 could possibly be out of gaol. 
 
 3373. Chairman.'] Have you any other suggestion which you wish to make 
 to the Committee ? 
 
 Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to solicit attention to one point, to 
 which I have called the attention of the visiting justices at Taunton, and that is 
 as to the necessity of work for debtors committed for Fraud or disobedience of 
 orders of court. There is no power to put county court debtors, or debtors 
 committed for fraud, to work, and they are consequently in the gaols sometimes a 
 long period, and put to the worst possible purpose, namely, idleness during the 
 whole time that tliey are there. 
 
 3374. Marquess of Salisburj/.] Have they not the option of working ? 
 
 Yes ; but I never knew one to ask for it. It has struck me for years that an 
 alteration was desirable, and I reported upon it in 1854. 
 
 337.5. Lord S/ewiird.] Do such persons associate with each other, or with the 
 prisoners in gaol, or are they kept in separate confinement r 
 
 The prisoners are in wards, first, second and third class wards, the county 
 court debtors and fraudulent debtors being in the third class ward, and they 
 are there from a period of from 10 to 42 days, doing nothing the whole 
 time, and coming in repeatedly for the same cause. If the debt is not paid, they 
 are committed for contempt of court, and the debt is not extinguished by their 
 committal. 
 
 3376. Are they allowed to associate with the other prisoners? 
 
 With the other prisoners of the same class, not with the ordinary prisoners ; 
 they are not in separate confinement ; they are walking about in the yards the 
 whole time with their hands in their pockets, and generally doing nothing from 
 the time they enter to the time they go out of gaol. 
 
 3377. Earl of Romneij.] Do they maintain themselves? 
 
 No ; they are maintained at the expense of the rate-payers of the county. I 
 ventured to call the attention of several noble Lords to the subject at the time the 
 Lord Chancellor's Bill for the Amendment of the Bankruptcy Laws was before 
 the House, but I fear I Avas too late ; I suggested that power should be given to 
 the County Court Judge to say whether such prisoners should be put to labour 
 or not. 
 
 3378. You mean with regard to those persons coming in, perpetually com- 
 mitting frauds against their creditors, and just escaping coming within the 
 criminal Iua r 
 
 Just so. 
 
 3379. Lord Wensletjdale.] Do you think it rcisonabl"^ that debtors who do not 
 pay their own expenses and are fed upon th*; ibod su|)i»Iied by the county should 
 make some compensation for it by their industrial labour, so as to ])roduce some 
 advantage to the county from their labour ? 
 
 Yes; and 1 would venture to take higher ground also, that a man being fora 
 lon<i i>eriod in gaol and in idleness, must of necessity become a worse member of 
 societv, and that he certainly ought to be made to support himself. 
 
 3380. Ihit
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 319 
 
 33S0. But yoLi have no right to treat him as a criminal, have you ? w. Oakley, Esq. 
 Cei tainly not. < 
 
 338!. Lord Stexvard.] How many hours are the prisoners in Taunton Gaol 
 allowed to remain in bed? 
 
 From 8 o'clock at night till G o'clock in the morning — ten hours. 
 
 3382. Do they sleep in hainmocks or in beds ? 
 
 Seventy-two of them sleep in hammocks, and the remainder on mattresses 
 stuffed with straw on bed boards, in the new corridor of the gaol. 
 
 33S3. They are not allowed to iinsliug their hammocks, or spread their mat- 
 tresses before that hour, are they ? 
 Not till a short time before 8 o'clock. 
 
 3384. And then are all the lights turned off? 
 Yes, all the lights are turned off at 8 o'clock. 
 
 3385. Is not the allowance of 10 hours' sleep very long? 
 
 It is ihe full period, but there is no lemedy for it. Under the existing Acts 
 of Parliament there is no power to keep a prisoner at work more than ten hours. 
 I may perhaps be allowed to mention what the dietary in Taunton Gaol in 1840 
 was; all prisoners were then kept on 1 pint of oatmeal gruel, containing 2 ozs. 
 of oatmeal, I li). of bread, and \h lb. of i)otatoes for six days in the week, and 
 on the Sundays 1 pint of oat.meal gruel, 1 lb. of bread, 1 lb. of potatoes, and 6 
 ozs. of uncooked meat. I am desirous also of soliciting attention to a recom- 
 mendation of mine in 1853, which further experience has confirmed my opinion 
 as to the necessity of. 
 
 Extract from Pamphlet, published 1853. 
 
 " Employment should be provided or a refusre established for prisoners who, on their 
 discharge from scaol, are willmg to work. This seems to have been contemplated by 
 4 Geo. 4, c. 64, s. 39, which states, ' Prisoners discharged from prison should be supplied 
 with tiie means of returnino; to their families, or to some place of employment, where they 
 may be engaged in a life of honest lalour for their maintenance, and prevented from pur- 
 suing evil courses.' In many instance s where employment has been obtained for prisoners 
 on their discharge from naol they have afterwards clone well ; and at least 15 out of every 
 20 prisoners committed for second ofTencis, are believed to have been guilty of them because, 
 having been one e convicted, the hope of gettinu honest employment for ihe future is gone. 
 They have no opportunity to regain their characters, or avoid starvation. There is no pro- 
 vision (or ordinary labour in union houses, and able-bodied men, willing to work, will not 
 go to them. 
 
 " A very small contribution from county rates to an establishment that would soon pro- 
 bably be self-supportihc, njiiiht prevmt much crime, and save large sums now expended in 
 prosecuting and punishing offenders.' 
 
 _ » 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 WILLIAM GOLDEN LU.MLEY, Esquire, is called in, and examined 
 
 as lollows : 
 
 3386. Chairman.'] YOU hold the office, I believe, of Legal Secretary to the W.G.Lumley,Esg, 
 
 Poor Law Board ? 
 
 I am one of the Assistant Secretaries to the Poor Law Board. 
 
 33S7. You are a barrister, are you not? 
 I am. 
 
 _ 3388. The Poor Law Board exercise, within certain limits, a control over the 
 dietary of the different unions, do they not .' 
 
 Yes; it is one of tlie express provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act 
 that the dietaries of the inmates of workhouses should be under the control of 
 the Poor Law Commissioners, and that control therefore they have always 
 exercised. 
 
 3389. How long have you been at the Poor Law Board ? 
 Since 1839. 
 
 (37. 11 ) rr4 3390. Therefore
 
 320 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W.G.Lu»ilei/,Es(/. 3;)00. Therefore you are perfectly conversant with the practice of the Board 
 
 in iiil tliose matters for many years past? 
 
 24th Apr.l 1863. J ^^^^ gQ 
 
 3191. I believe, some time since, six tables or bases of dietary were laid down 
 by the Poor Law Board for the adoption of the different unions in the country? 
 
 I had better state the matter a little in detail. At the commencement ot the 
 Commission, as far back as 1835, when the unions were formed, and during the 
 establishment of them, the Pour Law Commissioners collected together all the 
 dietaries in use in the workhouses in the different parts of the kingdom, and 
 had them compared together ; they selected from the returns as many as 
 six different scales of dietary prevailing in the different divisions of the country, 
 and framed a circular letter setting out all those scales. As the unions were 
 formed, this letter was sent to the Boards of Guardians, with a recounnenda- 
 tion that they should select from the series of scales one of them which 
 would be most suitable for the workhouse in that particular district and that 
 particular union. The guardians acted accordingly, selected that which seemed, 
 most suitable, and returned it to the Poor Law Commissioners, and for the 
 most part the scale so sent to the Commissioners was adopted by them, 
 and introduced into a formal order binding the guardians to use it for the 
 future. That course was pursued until almost all the unions were formed, and 
 all the workhouses established. From time to time, after the formation of the 
 unions, the guardians occasionally found that, the dietary in use required 
 alteration, and in some respects, and in most cases, required some increase. The 
 recommendations and suggestions of the guardians were duly attended to, usually 
 after some comm.unication with the Assistant Commissioner in charge of the 
 district, and sometimes with the medical officer of the workhouse ; but the changes 
 proceeded upon the experience mainly of the guardians, as they had found 
 the dietary work in their union. That course was pursued until the year 1850, 
 when Lord Fortescue, the Parliamentary Secretary, suggested that it would 
 be convenient to obtain the aavice of some eminent physiologist who would 
 advise as to the proper mode of dealing with the subject, and Dr. Lyon Playfair 
 was then consulted on the part of the Poor Law Board. He gave information 
 and details as to the constituent parts and chemical properties of the different 
 substances used in the dietaries of the unions from which tables were formed : 
 and from that time all changes in dietaries have been tested by a relerenee to 
 those results and those tables. The experience of the Board therefore is mixed 
 up with the scientific information received from this high authority, and all 
 changes have been thenceforth subjected to a considerable amount of scrutiny. 
 But they are taking place from day to day according to the conditions of the 
 unions and the circumstances of the paupers who are admitted into their 
 workhouses. 
 
 33Q2. Was there a large variation in the six formulas or tables that were 
 origmally laid down r 
 
 I think there is some variation in them ; I may observe that this letter and 
 the tables will be found printed in the second volume of the Reports of the 
 , Poor Law Commissioners, published in 1835 or 1836. The scales vary certainly 
 
 in some respects, because tiiey were taken from different parts of the country, 
 and the food of the labouring classes varies very considerably in different i)arts 
 of the country. 
 
 3303. Will you be good enough to put in that table? 
 
 Yes; I will put in this letter, which will give the different scales — {delivering 
 in the savie. Vide Appendix). 
 
 3394. Were the modifications which were made by the local authorities on 
 those six different cases very various and very extensive ? 
 
 Many of the dietaries remain almost unaltered to the present day ; but by far 
 the greater portion have been altered, and, I believe I may say, the alteration 
 invariably has been an increase, more or less, but still an increase in the quantities 
 of food supplied to the inmates. 
 
 3395. Has it been mainly an increasing quantity, or has it been an increase in 
 
 quality ? 
 
 In
 
 SELECT COMMITTBE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 321 
 
 In both respects; sometimes the nature of the food has been altered, and WG Lumk E 
 sometimes the quantities increased. ' ' J ^"' ''' 
 
 3396. Has meat become a more important element of diet than it used to be ? ^^ ^^" ' ^' 
 Taking the -whole of tiie dietaries which have been modified, certainly that 
 
 has been the case ; there has been more meat introduced into the dietaries since 
 
 the first institution of the dietary tables. 
 
 3307. In the case of many unions, is not bacon the only representative of 
 the element of meat ? 
 
 Bacon is undoubiediy one of the ingredients of the food in some unions, but 
 "cooked meat" istlie general term introduced into almost all the dietaries; it is 
 not confined to bacon. 
 
 3398. Do you believe that in the majority of unions under the head of "meat" 
 ■would be included beef and mutton? 
 
 Yes, certuinly ; in the greater number of unions the pauper inmates would 
 have beef or mutton ; undoubtedly, very often there would be bacon, but it would 
 be beef or mutton for the most part. 
 
 3399. Vou believe that those instances in which bacon is the only representa- 
 tive of meat are very rare ? 
 
 Yes, certainly ; bacon as the only portion of meat in the dietary would be 
 quite a rarity. 
 
 3400. Would you feel it your duty in such a case to point out to the guar- 
 dians that the nieie allowance of bacon, without any other form of meat, would 
 be insufficient? 
 
 1 can hardly say that the Poor Law Board would insist upon that, because the 
 question must depend upon the nature of the food used among the independent , 
 labouring classes in the particular neighbourhood. Where the labouring classes of 
 the neighbourhood live only upon bacon, it would be wrong to insist upon a 
 different food for the inmates of the workhouse. 
 
 3401. Do the dietary tables of all the different unions pass in review before 
 you at least once in the year ? 
 
 No. 
 
 3402. What means have you of knowing whether it is the practice, or it is not 
 the practice, in particular parts of the country, to ^ve bacon alone, or to give 
 bacon in conjunction with other meat? 
 
 We have no special means of knowing that, unless some matter turns up in 
 regard to some particular union. If the guardians are satisfied with the dietary 
 as it is fixed and settled in their union, the dietary table would remain unaltered 
 for years, and that has been the case in many unions ; but if it be found, by the 
 experience of the medical officer of the workhouse, that the health of the inmates 
 requires a change in the dietary, that medical ofhcer would bring the matter under 
 the notice of the Board of Guardians, and they would consider it, arrange for 
 some alteration to be made, and suggest an alteration to the Poor Law Board ; 
 and then the Poor Law Board would enter into an inquiry upon the subject, 
 either through their inspector or through the guardians themselves. 
 
 3403. Duke of Riclmiond.'] Could bacon be substituted for meat entirely in 
 any union without the Poor Law Board knowing it? 
 
 No ; it ought nut to be. 1 am assuming that people are not fining things which 
 are grossly illegal. One of the provisions of the Poor Law Board's Order is that 
 the dietary table should be hung up in three or four different parts of the work- 
 house, and, therefore, the pauper inmates can see what the dietary is which they 
 ought to have, and what the food ought to be. Again, the inspector of the 
 district has to inspect the Avorkhouses once or twice every year, and it would be 
 his duty to see to the food ; and one of the questions which he has to answer 
 is, that the regulations prescribed by the diet and other orders of the Poor 
 Law B(iard are carried out into due execution. Therefore, the inspector has to 
 see that this matter is duly attended to. It is not very likely that a change would 
 take place in the dietary without the Poor Law Board being somehow informed of 
 it. '1 hen, again, there is this additional control over the matter: all the provi- 
 
 (37. 11.) S s sions
 
 322 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W.G.Lumley,Es<j. sions consumed in the workhouse must appear in the books kept by the master 
 
 of the workhouse, and he must submit them to the auditor ; and the auditor will 
 
 S4th April 1S63. see whether the food has been suppUed to the inmates according to the dietary 
 table. 
 
 3404. Marquess of Salisbury.] Bacon is generally dearer than beef or mutton, 
 is it not ? 
 
 Yes, I think so. It depends very much upon the contracts of the guardians, 
 and upon the part of the country in which the workhouse is situate ; but I should 
 think that in some parts of the country, bacon would be dearer than the beef 
 that is used in the workhouse. 
 
 3405. The dietaries require a certain weight of meat, do they not? 
 Yes, certainly. 
 
 3406. It is not very likely, therefore, that the guardians should adhere strictly 
 to bacon, when it Avas the dearest meat under all circumstances r 
 
 No; it would be adejiarture from the order. 
 
 ■^407. But if tlie weight is the same, and bacon is dearer, there is no profit 
 derived from the use of bacon ? 
 Certainly not. 
 
 3408. Chairman.] I understand from your evidence that the diet varies very 
 much wuth the food of the inhabitants of the locality ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 34OQ. Could you deliver in to the Committee any returns, or could you give 
 them any dietary tables which might be accepted as fair specimens, representing 
 the amount of food given iu the different workhouses in different large districts 
 * of England? 
 
 I can place before your Lordships a copy of 12 orders, taken from different 
 parts of the kinL'dom ; for instance, the dietary of Berkshire, Cornwall, Cumber- 
 land, Denbijjhsliire, Glamorganshire, Gloucestershire, Kent, Lancashire, Lin- 
 colnshire, Northumberland, and Staffordshire, besides that of three metro- 
 politan parishes. 
 
 3410. May those dietaries be accepted as fair average specimens, neither 
 expressing the maximum nor the minimum of the diet in those different 
 counties ? • 
 
 I think they show very properly the average dietaries of those counties from 
 which they are taken, and, of course, the surrounding districts in the neighbour- 
 hood of the unions. I have the dietaries themselves here and the orders issued. 
 Those which I propose to put in are the dietaries now in force, and some which 
 have been lately issued. 1 have also obtained information as to the dietary 
 ori'iinaliy issued in two or three cases, and a comparison may be shown of the 
 difference which prevails between the first and that which exists at the present 
 moment. 
 
 3411. Lord Steward.] Is there not a considerable difference, either in the_ 
 quantity or in the quality, between the highest and the lowest of the existing" 
 scales ? 
 
 Yes, certainly ; because a dietary which would be suitable to an agricultural 
 labourer in Ilamjjshire would be very inappropriate for a London union, and 
 very unsuitable for a dietary in respect of paupers from Lancashire. 
 
 3412. Are you s])eaking now of quantity or quality? 
 
 Of both ; there is more meat in the Metropolitan and the Lancashire dietaries 
 than there would be in the Kentish or in the Hampshire dietaries. 
 
 341 3. Chairman.} Do you think there is any reascm why a metropolitan jjauper 
 should receive a greater quantity of foofl than a Hampshire labourer ? 
 
 I do not know that the result will prove that he receives more food ; there is a 
 difference in the kind of food ; I am not prepared to say that there is more or 
 less nutriment in either one or the other. It would probably be advisable that 
 some complete analysis should be made of tiie chemical results of the dietaries 
 ill the two classes of cases. 
 
 3414. Lo id Steward,"]
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 323 
 
 3414. Lord Steward.'] U'as not such an analysis made by Dr. Lyon Playfair? w.G.Lvwletj,Esq, 
 No ; the mode of ascertaining in each particular case, with certainty, the 
 
 chemical results was obtained through the suggestions and calculations of Dr. 24th April 1863. 
 
 Lyon Playfair, and, of course, we can apply to any specific dietary the scales and 
 
 the rule resulting from them. 
 
 3415. Chairman.'] Can you state to the Committee what the fundamental 
 principle of Dr. Lyon Playfair's dietary was ; did it regard meat as a main 
 principle ? 
 
 No. Dr. Lyon PlayfHir gave the results of the different kinds of food used in 
 the pauper dietaries, and thereupon, having obtained those results, the dietaries 
 of the different unions in the different counties were analysed with reference to 
 them. The average results were obtained in respect of all the different unions 
 in the different counties ; and from that time forth, in the case of any union 
 that wishes to bave either a new dietary or a modified dietary, that average 
 result is apphed to the new projiosal ; and if it is found that the guardians' 
 proposal will come up to that average, or will exceed it, the Poor Law Board, 
 for the most part, are prepared to adopt the modification. 
 
 34it5. Lord Steward.] The point from which you start is, that a certain 
 quantity of nutriment is necessary for each individual? 
 
 We cannot tell how much nutriment will be wanted for each individual. It is 
 presumed that the experience of the guardians has ascertained, that for the 
 inmates of their workhouse the dietary scale upon which they have acted for a 
 long series of years is sufficient ; that is the presumption. Then the medical 
 officer shows that either the kind of food is not sufficient, or that it is desirable, 
 for some reason or other, mostly for the benefit of the inmates, that there shouhl 
 be some change. The proposed change is then investigated, and subjected to the 
 scrutiny of this table. 
 
 3417. Marquess of Salisbury. ] Is this tuble the minimum that you would 
 adopt ? 
 
 No ; there is no table prescribed by Dr. Lyon Playfair as to what should be 
 given to any particular pauper or any set of paupers ; all that he has given is 
 this : that taking all the ditierent ingredients, and the subject-matters of the food 
 used in the workhouses, the chemical properties, when analysed, will give such 
 and such results. Therefore, when a proposed dietary is submitted comprising 
 any of those substances, the table of Dr. Playfair is applied to the proposal on 
 the j)art of the guardians. 
 
 3418. Chairman.] I understand, consequently, that the result of Dr. Playfair's 
 analysis was to give you a certain standard, or test, by whiciiyou would measure 
 the dietary of every union ? 
 
 It is so. 
 
 3419. What is the principal element in that standard, or test table, of Dr. 
 Lvon Playfair's ? 
 
 All the articles are in the table. 
 
 3420. Is it reduced to chemical elements r 
 
 Yes. For instance, as a general illustration, he gives a table, from which it is 
 ascertained that bacon contains a certain proportion or quantity of nitrogenous 
 ingredients ; it also contains a certain quantity of substances freer from nitrogen : 
 the table also shows the quantity of mineral matter, and also the quantity of 
 carbun, which latter ingredient is not much attended to. But the important 
 subject for the consideration of the Poor Law Board is the nitrogenous ingredient, 
 and the proportion of that ingredient, in the table submitted to the Poor Law 
 Board by the guardians, is the matter upon which the main attention is exercised. 
 
 342 1 . Lord Steward.] Is it not the fact, as-a general rule, that every individual 
 requires a certain amount of nutriment ; say, that if you give less meat you must 
 give mure milk, or more bread, or some substance containing an equal quantity of 
 nutriment '^ 
 
 I do not know that we can apply that rule exactly to the inmates of a work- 
 house collectively in any particular localitv. 
 
 (37. 11.) s s2 3422. Does
 
 324 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 .W.G.Lumley,Esq. 3422. Does not every man, every woman, and every child, upon tlie average, 
 
 require a certain amount of nutriment ? 
 
 24th April 18G3. Yes ; upon the average it is so. 
 
 3423- Then, if j'ou have a certain number of inmates in a workliouse, there 
 must be a certain amount of nutriment administered to them ; and I ask you 
 whether it is not necessary, if you Lnve less meat, or less of any one article of 
 food, that you must give a proportionate increase of some other article of food? 
 For instance, if you give less meat, you must give more bread ? 
 
 Yes, certainly ; the necessary amount of nutriment for the sustenance of the 
 inmates must be supplied either from meat or farinaceous substances. 
 
 34J4. Chairman.^ Will you be good enough to put in Dr. Lyon Playfair's 
 scheme ? 
 
 It is scarcely in a form whicli would be useful to tlie Committee, although it 
 is available for the purposes of the Poor Law Office, and for purposes of com- 
 parison, but it is not prepared in a shape to be put forward as a report upon the 
 subject from i)v. Lyon I'layfair ; it consists ratiier of heads or memoranda for 
 their guidance. 
 
 3425. Would it be possible for the Committee to understand, from \\hat you 
 have put in, what the average quantity of food in the workhouses may be? 
 
 I will read one of those orders which are sent with the dietary: "Ordered, 
 tiiat the paupers received and maintained in the workhouse of the union shall, 
 during the period of their residence therein, be fed, dieted, and maintained with 
 the food, and in the manner described, as follows." Then comes the table. The 
 one that I have before me is for men and women, and it prescribes what the 
 dietary shall be for the diflerent days of the week, and the quantities that shall 
 be given for breakfast, for dinner, and for supper, under diflerent heads, according 
 to the subject-matter of the food. 
 
 3A-26. Marquess of Salisbury:] Does not Dr. Phiyfair tell you how many 
 ounces of each class of food are rcfjuii ed ? 
 
 No ; all that he toid us was Mdiat would be the component parts, chemically, 
 of any particular species of food. He told us, for instance, that bread would 
 contain so much nitrogenous and so much non-nitrogenous substance. 
 
 3427. Lord Stetcarc/.] Do you think that what you call the improved dietary 
 has had any sensihle eftect«upon tlie health of the inmates of the workhouses 
 throughout the kingdom ? 
 
 I can hardly answer that question precisely ; for the great proportion of the 
 inmates of workhouses, in the larger portion of the country, consists of aged 
 and infirm people. I do not think that the average of life is much increased, 
 but certainly the average of life has in no way diminished, since they have been 
 in the union workhouses. 
 
 3428. You stated, did you not, that since the taking of the analysis of Dr. 
 Playfair, you have increased the dietary ? 
 
 In any cases where there has been an application for a new dietary since 
 that time, the tendency has been to increase tlie amount of food. I should put it 
 more correctly that the tendency has been more to increase the amount of 
 anitiial food, but I can hardly answer the question as to the effect upon the 
 health of the inmates. 
 
 3429. Chairman.] Are you at all conversant «ith the general dietary sanc- 
 tioned in the different county and borough prisons ? 
 
 No ; I am not acquainted with it. 
 
 3430. It would be impossible therefore for you to state whether the average 
 dietary of the workhouses be above or below the average dietary of prisons ? 
 
 We do not know that ; we are guided mainly in the Poor Law Board by the 
 test of experience. The union workhouses have now been in existence fur 25 
 or 30 years (that is, the greater proportion of them), and they have a dietary 
 table in all ; and in the main, though I admit that modifications have taken 
 place in certain unions, the modifications are not very great ; we have no reason to 
 believe that the proportionate or conqjarative mortality has increased ; we 
 rather think that, upon the whole, the state of the workhouses is better than it 
 was at starting. 
 
 343'- 1^0
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 325 
 
 3431. Do you believe that the average dietaries in the workhouses are supe- w.G.Lumley,Esn. 
 
 fior, or inferior, or about equal to the average dietaries of the inhabitants of their 
 
 respective localities? 24th April 1863. 
 
 In the rural districts, I have very little doubt in my own mind, that the dietary 
 
 of the Morkhousc is above the average of the dietary of the labouring classes. 
 There are many agrieidtural unions where the inmates have cooked meat three 
 times a week, and I do not believe tiiat the agricultural labourer would have 
 that amount of cooked meat. But, on the other hand, if you compare the dietary 
 of worklioiises in the metropolitan districts, or tlie M'orkliouses in the manu- 
 facturing districts, with that of the labouring classes in the time of their pro- 
 sperity, undoubtedly the scale of dietary in the workhouse would be below that 
 of the independent labouring classes ; because their rate of wages beino; high, 
 their scale of living is also high. Hnt in the rural and agricultural parts of the 
 country, however, 1 believe that the workhouse dietary is far above that whicli 
 the labouring classes would enjoy. It was probably not intended to be so 
 originally, but this is the necessary result of the looking after the people by the 
 central authority, and by the Boards of Guardians. 
 
 3432. Has it ever been represented to you, or are you aware, that workhouse 
 oft'ences are sometimes committed with a view to gain admittance to prison, in 
 order to enjoy a supposed snperior diet? 
 
 Not by the regular inmates ; I have not the sliglitest reason to sujipose that 
 there is any possible foundation for that : but there is a class of persons who 
 come into the workhouse, and run out of it, vagrants, tramps, and casual poor 
 persons » ho come in for a night ; and it is an allegation, which probably is 
 true, that many of those commit offences in the workhouse, and are sent to 
 gaol. Whether it be that they get sent to gaol for the purpose of obtaining 
 bettej- food than they would have in the workhouse, or whether it is because they 
 are of that vagrant character, and loose dissolute life, that they are reckless of the 
 consequences, I am not prepared to say. They would not receive more food, or 
 they would not receive such food in the workhou-;e, as vagrants, as they would 
 be hkely to receive in prison ; of this there is no doubt. But they form a very 
 limited class, one which can hardly be dealt with in any way b}' the Poor Law 
 authorities. But so far as the ordinary regular inmates of workhouses are con- 
 cerned, 1 do not think that there is any foundation whatever for that «hich has 
 been frequently stated, that the inmates commit offences in order that they may 
 be sent to prison and get a better dietary. ' • 
 
 3433. A large proportion, especially at the present time, of the inmates of 
 workhouses consist of aged and infirm people, against whom that allegation could 
 not exist ? 
 
 Yes; or of women, the mothers of illegitimate children who are living in work- 
 houses, and of orphan and deserted children. 
 
 3434. Are you of opinion that, partly from the passage of those tramps and 
 vagrants through the workhouse, and partly from other causes, there is a good 
 deal of demoralisation which goes on within the workhouse, which leads to the 
 commission of offences, and the filling of the gaols? 
 
 I think it is very difficult to trace the operation of motives upon criminals in 
 respect of the causes of crime. I do not think that the workhouses themselves 
 jtroduce any incentive to crime more than is to be expected from the existence of 
 the low classes of society. There is notiung in the workhouse that necessarily 
 leads to it; the inmates are chiefly persons who are there from reduced circum- 
 stances, and for support in their old age and in their sicknesses : there is very 
 little to lead them to commit offences. 
 
 343.5. Is there not an association between the young lads in the workhouse 
 and the tramps and vagrants who are passing through, and who have very ofteni 
 been convicted and re-convicted offenders? 
 
 There should not be, and I should say that there is none whatever; because the 
 tramp-ward is totally distinct, and jierfectly secluded and separated from the 
 wards where the lads or girls, or the other ordinary inmates of the workhouse, 
 are kept. There is no reason why those tramps should have any intercourse 
 with them, nor have they, as I believe. 
 
 (37. 11.) s s 3 343<^. You
 
 326 MINUTES OF EA'IDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W.G.Umley,Esq. "436. You belicA^e, tlierefore, that the classification as generally adopted is a 
 
 sufficient pafe2;uard figajnst the contnniination which is frequently alleged to take 
 
 24th April 1863. place in workhouses? 
 
 ^ Between those two classes undoubtedly it is quite sutficient, and it is, for the 
 
 most 1 art, rigorously maintained. 
 
 3437. Earl of Duck.] What is the diet of a casual pauper - 
 
 It varies in different places ; but for the main it is bread and water, and perhaps, 
 occasionally he gets a little porridge. 
 
 3438. What quantity of bread do they have ? 
 Six or seven ounces of bread. 
 
 3439. That is for one meal? 
 
 Yes, that is for one meal. The tramps come into the workhouse at different 
 hours; generally speaking, they come into the house at night, after the evening 
 meal. 
 
 3440. Earl of Ronniei/.] Are you spcakini!; entirely of wayfarers and wanderers, 
 who come in just for the night, and go on ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3441. Besides those, there may be many persons who ordinarily live 
 by thieving, and who are settled parishioners in the union, and, for some reason 
 or other, a man chooses to go into the workhouse, and he is there associated with 
 all the other labourers of his class, is he not r 
 
 Undoubtedly that is so. 
 
 3442. So far as that goes, there must be contamination, and it is impossible to 
 help it ? 
 
 Yes, quite so : a man associates with persons in the workhouse just the same as 
 he would associate with the same persons if he were in a village ; and this cannot 
 be prevented, so far as his own class is concerned. 
 
 3443. CJunnnun.'] Who are the class of people by whom the workhouse 
 offences are gtneially committed, such as breaking windows and the destruction 
 of fun iture ? 
 
 Tlie greater portion of them are vagrants ; occasionally there are some violent 
 young women perhaps in the workhouse, hut it is not a class of .the able-bodied men 
 and women, because that class is not much in the workhouse : the peisons who are 
 sent to prison for the most part from the workhouse are the vagrants. They come 
 in and are angry at being set to work, or they are angry because they have not 
 better fare, or have some other cause of dissatisfaction ; and they break a window, 
 and tear up their clothes, and strip themselves, and abuse the master, and pro- 
 bably abuse their fellow inmates : and these are the classes, for the most part, 
 who are sent to prison for workliouse off'ences. 
 
 3444. It is your belief that there are a considerable number of persons, taken 
 from that cLiss, who do commit offences within workhouses with a view of ijeing 
 committed to prison ? 
 
 I do not know that one can trace this ; it is very difficult to find out the motives. 
 We only know that, in point of fact, they do commit offences, and are sent to 
 piison ; and when they are before the Committing Justices, they often say they 
 committed the offence to get to prison, because they are so wretched and mise- 
 rable that they juefer being in prison to being at large : that is a statement 
 which is made and nobody can contradict,, because it depends upon a man's 
 motives, which cannot be traced. Now and then there are individual paupers in 
 the workhouse who arc dissiitisficd with their treatment there; some who would 
 wish to go away no doubt, but uho have no other means of going away, and 
 who are prohibited from being relieved out of the workhouse. There are, occa- 
 sionallv, instances of other persons who are dissatisfied and go away from the 
 workhouse, not so much because they arc dissatisfied with the fare of the work- 
 house, but because they want to be released from the workhouse ; a few cases of 
 that kind have come under the notice of the Board. 
 
 3445). Dnke of Ric/imo)i<L'\ Are the Committee to understand from you, that 
 your opinion is that the number of persons who prefer hard labour in a gaol, or 
 
 the
 
 SELKCT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 327 
 
 the treadmill, to the reUef in the workhouse, with the power of leaving it when- w.G.Lu>'ilc:u,Eiq. 
 
 ever they please, is very great ? 
 
 That is not my opinion. It is impossible to know what the motives of crimi- 24th April 18G3. 
 
 nals are; but judging from one's own natural inferences, and from anytliing that 
 
 we can infer from matters which are brought under our notice, I think that the 
 jiauper inmate of a workhouse is generally far too comfortable to prefer going to 
 gaol, where he Avould be kept to hard labour for a certain time. In the work- 
 house there is a regular diet, there is good clothing, there is a warm building, 
 and there is attendance in case of any illness ; and there is, generally speaking, 
 some consort and companionship with acquaintances and neighbours. All that is 
 , to be set otl" against the confinement in the gaol, with hard labour, and the fare, 
 about which I do not profess to give any opinion, because I do not know the 
 absolute fare in the different gaols. 
 
 3446. Lord Sfncard.] Does your experience lead you to say that if the dietary 
 in the county prisons in England is decidedly superior to that in the workhouses, 
 the prison dietary might be reduced without any danger to the health of the 
 prisoners ? 
 
 I think I ought not to say that decisively, because you must take into con- 
 sideration the employment, and its action on the class of persons who are in 
 prisons. Their ages should be considered. I should suppose that the average age 
 of the inmates of workhouses would be very far above the average age of the 
 inmates of prisons, therefore the workhouse might require a much lower dietary. 
 Supposing a workhouse to be filled, for instance, with aged persons, the proper 
 dietary would be much lower for them than the prison dietary. 
 
 3447. Do you not believe that the dietary in the workhouses is sufficient for 
 the maintenance of the health and good condition of an able-bodied man in the 
 prime of lifer 
 
 We certainly expect that that is so. 
 
 3448. If that be so, would it not follow that a dietary much superior to it in 
 quantity and quality would be more than sufficient for the maintenance of the 
 health of a male adult prisoner ? 
 
 Taking the dietary for the adult able-bodied inmate of a Avorkhouse, I should 
 think that it ought to be sufficient to satisfy and keep him in good health. 
 
 344Q- Duke of Richmond ] Is it not possible that what might be a perfectly 
 sufficient diet for an able-bodied pauper in a workhouse, might be insufficient 
 for that pauper if he was kept to hard labour on the treadwheel ? 
 
 That is a point upon \\ hich I should have only an opinion ; I have had no 
 knowledge of that. I should certainly infer that the labour which we can impose 
 upon an able-bodied man in the workhouse would never be so exacting and so 
 severe as that to which he is subjected in the prison, and consequently that 
 there would be a greater expenditure of vital power on the part of the man in 
 prison than there would be in the workhouse. 
 
 3450. Lord Steward?^ The hardest labour you generally give in workhouses 
 is stone-breaking, is it not ? 
 
 Yes, stone-breaking is the hardest labour ; that, or digging in the fields, which 
 of course would not be equal to the labour on the treadwheel. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 JAMES ANTHONY GARDNER, Esquire, is called in, and examined 
 
 as follows : 
 
 3451. Chairman.] YOU are the governor of the Bristol Gaol, are you not? j. A. Gardner, Esq- 
 I am. 
 
 3452. For how many jears have you held that appointment ? 
 Twenty-six. 
 
 34.53- Wi^l yo^ s'^^*^ ^^ ^^® Committee what is the average number of 
 prisoners within the gaol ? 
 About 160. 
 
 (37. 11.) s s 4 _ 3454- ^oes
 
 328 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. A. Gardner, Esq. 34.54. Does that include debtors ? 
 
 It includes all clsses ; but our debtors are very few, perhaps not more than 
 
 24th April 1863. six or seven now, 
 
 ^ 34.").5- I believe the gaol is a building of old construction ? 
 
 It is ; it has been built about 50 years. 
 
 3456. Since you have iield the office of governor, has it been your object as 
 far as possible to adapt the old construction of the gaol to the separate system ? 
 
 Yes, it has. 
 
 3457. Do you carry out the separate system in complete strictness ? 
 Yes, completely so. 
 
 3458. And of course under the rule of silence so far as the prisoners are con- 
 cerned with respect to each olher? 
 
 Yes ; and with the exception of three or four prisoners, employed outside 
 the wards, none of them see each other. 
 
 3459. There is consequently neither sight nor communication? 
 Just so. 
 
 3460. Is that carried out in all the different departments of the prison ? 
 Yes ; in the cells, in the wards, in the school, on the treadwheel, in the chapel, 
 
 in the exercising yards, and throughout the prison. 
 
 3461. How is that separation carried out in the exercising yards ;■ 
 
 We have se|)arate compartments built, with bars in front, so that a prisoner 
 cannot possibly look round into the next compartment ; there is an officer 
 stationed in front and another behind, for the purpose of removing prisoners to 
 and from their cells, or to and from the school, or to and from the chapel. 
 
 3462. So that he is, in fact, within a groove of iron? 
 
 Yes ; there is a door behind him and bars in front, with windows to lift up 
 and down. 
 
 3463. Does that arrangement require a large number of officers to super, 
 intend it '. 
 
 Yes ; the construction of our gaol is such that Ave cannot do with so small a 
 staff" as we could if we were on a more modern plan. 
 
 3464. Are all the prisoners allowed to take exercise? 
 
 We do not give them any other exercise than the treadwheel, except in the 
 case of invalids. 
 
 3465. Tliis arrangement to which you allude is for the purpose of exercising 
 invalids ? 
 
 The invalids are exercised in small compartments, 17 or 18 feet long, and four 
 feet wide. 
 
 3466. I do not quite understand from your description to what class of 
 prisoners it is that those yards, with bars of iron on each side, are appropriated; 
 do they exercise in parallel lines ? 
 
 They do. 
 
 3467. With a gaoler in front of each ? 
 Yes, in front of the whole class. 
 
 S4f')8. I'^arl of liovmci/.] So that the compartments are for one man only ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 S469. And the officer standing in front sees each of them ? 
 Yes. 
 
 347". Ef>r1 of lhu//n/.] Do they converge to a centre? 
 They do not, but stiil all tiie officers can see them. 
 
 3471. ChairnKiii.'] Do the prisoners wear masks ? 
 
 They wear a bag down to their shoulders, which they can see through exceed- 
 ingly well ; but tlicy cannot recognise each other's features, or the make of the 
 shouliicrs behind. 
 
 3472. Marquess
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 329 
 
 3472. Marquess of Salisbury.'] How is it with regard to respiration? J. A.Gardner, Esq. 
 It is perfectly free ; it is nothing more than a veil after ail. 
 
 3473. C/iainnan.] What are the class of prisoners that make use of those ^^ P*^' 
 yards.'' 
 
 The convicted and the untried. 
 
 ' 3474. Do the untried wear those bags ? 
 Yes, they all wear those bags; it is merely to prevent the possibility of the 
 men being recognised in the gaol, and they are only too thankful for it ; indeed, 
 many of them ask to be kept separate before they know that we are so very 
 strict ; they say, on being admitted, " Can you anyhow manage to keep me 
 separate without seeing the other prisoners ?" 
 
 3475. So that it answers a double purpose — that the ill-disposed prisoners are 
 prevented from having communication with the well-disposed prisoners, and, as 
 to the untried prisoners, it prevents recognition on the j)art of their comrades r 
 
 Yes, it answers that double purpose. 
 
 3476. 1 understood, from your previous answer, that the only exercise that 
 you allow to the healthy prisoners is the treadwheel ; are the class of men who 
 make use of those exercising yards those who do so by medical order ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3477. And no others ? 
 No others. 
 
 3478. The mass of the prisoners are exercised simply by means of the tread- 
 wheel r 
 
 That is all ; on Sundays we e.\ercise them the best way we can by admitting 
 them into those compartments, for a short time each prisoner. 
 
 3479. Do you find that system effective ? 
 
 Quite so. During the time I have been Governor, 26 years, we have never lost 
 a female prisoner, and we do not' lose more than one male prisoner in 12 months ; 
 those that we huve lost have come to us, perhaps, in the last stage of consumption ; 
 I do not know one single case that has been taken ill on the premises and died. 
 
 3480. Do you find that the prisoners dislike the system in your establishment ? 
 They very much dislike our gaol. 
 
 3481. Do you find that many of them are recommitted from your own 
 district ? 
 
 They are not ; we merely get back the professional thief. 
 
 3482. Is yours a county prison? 
 
 It is for the city and county of Bristol ;* Bristol is a county, 
 
 34S3. What is the population of Bristol ? 
 
 About 175,000. We have a better opportunity of watching the discharged 
 prisoners in Bristol, from the fact of their having come from within a ring 
 fence; therefore we knou where they are when at lar^e. In most; other gaols, 
 when they are discharged, they can go 40 miles perhaps from the prison, 
 whereas we know where all our prisoners go to. 
 
 3484. You have described to the Committee the separation, such as it is, in 
 the exercising yards ; will you now explain the system of separation that you 
 have established in the cells ? 
 
 They are removed from the compartments in each yard to the cells in each 
 ward, one at a time. An officer is i)laced at the cell door, and another at the 
 compartment in the yard. i)irectly a prisoner is released from the yard, having 
 been employed at some work, such as tailoring, shoemaking, or oakum picking, 
 they turn a half-minute glass, and when the sand is out they let another go ; when 
 the man arrives upstairs he rings a bell to show that he is out of sight, so 
 that they never see each other. 
 
 3485. Are the cells all certified ? 
 
 No, they are not certified, in consequence of their not being sufficiently large. 
 
 (37.11.) Tt 3486. That
 
 330 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J.A.Gardner,Esq. ^^gj-, -pj^^^. j.gg^,i(g^ (j^gg jt ^0^, from the old construction of the gaol, which 
 
 !7 „^ it was impossible to remedy r 
 .4 thApnla86 3. ^,j^^^ .^^^^j^^ ^^^3^_ 
 
 3487. How large a portion of the day is spent by the prisoners in those 
 cells ? 
 
 They rise at six in the morning, and return to their cells from eight to 
 nine ; from nine to tun they are in chapel ; from ten to one they are in the yards 
 again ; from oue'to two they are at dinner in their cells ; from two to six they 
 are in their yards again, and from six to seven they are in their cells ; at seven 
 their clothes are taken from them, and they aie locked in for the remainder of 
 the night. 
 
 3488. How many hours' sleep do they have? 
 From seven at night to six in the morning. 
 
 3489. Do you not reckon that a very large allowance to devote to sleep ? 
 
 It is a long time; but without a larger staff of officers we could not do better. 
 
 3490. Are the cells lighted ? 
 Tijey are not. 
 
 3491 . Earl of Dudley.'} You would require an extra staff of officers if the cells 
 ;ie li 
 
 Yes. 
 
 weie lighted in the evening ? 
 
 3492. It is a very long day for your staff as it is ? 
 
 Yes, the officers work very hard indeed ; one-half stay on till eight o'clock 
 on alternate nights. 
 
 3493. Cliainmm.] Do they use hammocks or beds ? 
 They use straw beds. 
 
 3494. Do you find that that is cleaner, or that it has any advantage over 
 Tiamraocks ? 
 
 l"he only advantage, I think, is, that if a piisoner is not as clean as he ought 
 to be, we can destroy the bed at once, and wash the canvas. 
 
 3495. Have you ever made use of guard beds for short sentence prisoners^ or 
 as a prison punishment .' 
 
 We have not. 
 
 3496. Would you see any objection to the use of them .- 
 JNone whatever. 
 
 3497. Would you apprehend any injury to the health of the prisoners from 
 their u.^e ? 
 
 I think none whatever in summer. 
 
 340S. Might it not be a very salutary punishment ? 
 
 I think it would at present, when a prisoner is refract orv, instead of giving 
 him his bed at seven, I give it to him at 9 or 10, or 1 1 or 12, as the case 
 may be. 
 
 3499. Earl of Romney.~\ Do you do that on your own authority ? 
 Yes ; but of course I make an entry of ever\ thing of the sort. 
 
 3500. Earl of Ducie.'] Why do you take their clothes from them at seven 
 at night ? 
 
 It is from tiie fear of the possibility of their attempting to make an escape. 
 
 3501. Marcjuess oi Salisbury.'] You stated that there was an average of 160 
 persons in the gaol, out of a population of 17i3,000 ; that is one in how many ? 
 
 About one-tenth per cent., or something like that ; I think we average a smaller 
 percentage iu Bristol than in any other city in England. 
 
 3502. Chairman.'] I understand from tlie evidence that you have given that a 
 prisoner, in passini^ to or from the cell, can have neither sight nor commimication 
 with any of his fellow- prisoners; and that the system, so far as tlie cell is con- 
 cerned, is strictly separate in your prison ? 
 
 Quite so. 
 
 3503- Do
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 331 
 
 3503. Do you look upon that strict separation as an essential part of your J. J. Gardner, Esq. 
 system ? " — 
 
 Yes, I do; I tiiink that M'e are exceedingly fortunate in havins: so small a '■''4* April 1863. 
 
 number of prisoners out of such a large number of inhabitants. I would add 
 
 to thar, that if a warder wifully allowed one prisoner to see another, he would 
 be dismissed directly, at the very moment. 
 
 3504. V(!U believe that the al)sence of commimication is really adhered to? 
 
 Yes ; 1 am perfectly satisfied that it is so ; and they dislike our o-jiol in con- 
 sequence of that ; and we are informed that they leave Bristol directly they are 
 discharged from the gaol. 
 
 3505. Is the turnkey at liberty to talk to a prisoner at all ? 
 
 No, except to direct him as regards his work, and then the prisoner whispers 
 only ; and the officer is compelled to speak out loud, and to stand at a distance 
 of six feet. 
 
 3506. Is that rule strictly adhered to ? 
 
 It is. There is no officer on the premises that would dare to let me see him 
 nearer a prisoner than six feet 
 
 3.507. What would be the penalty r 
 He would be fined. 
 
 3508. Have you ever had occasion to fine a man ? 
 Yes, frequently. 
 
 3509. But you consider that the rule is observed r 
 Yes, strictly so. 
 
 3510. Has the chaplain frequent communication with the prisoners? 
 
 He visits' a certain number every day, completing his round once a week. 
 
 351 1. Consecpiently, the chaplain has a given number of prisoners in a given 
 part of the gaol that he visits, ani no interference is effected with the ordinary 
 machinery of the gaol ? 
 
 None whatever. 
 
 3512. Earl of Dudley.'} It is not compulsory, therefore, upon the chaplain to 
 see every man per diem ? 
 
 It is not. It would be impossible for the chaplain to do it. It would take me 
 four hours, in the way in which I visit them. 
 
 35 1 3. Marquess of Salisbury.] Do you see them every day ■ 
 
 I see them every day ; but 1 may go into the wards perhaps twenty times a day 
 afterwards. I am always with the prisoners. 
 
 3,5 1 4. Chairman.'} Are you aware that the chaplain, under the ordinary rules 
 of every prison, has a discretion to see any prisoner that he pleases at any time r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3515. Does that hold good in your gaol? 
 Yes. 
 
 3516. But, practically, by the arrangement which you have described to the 
 Committee, I understand that the chaplain visits a certain number of prisoners 
 every day, and that the distribution of the labour amongst the remainder of the 
 prisoners is not interfered with ? 
 
 It is not interfered with at all. At the same time, in addition to the ward that 
 he appoints for Monday, or Tuesday, or Wednesday, he would see all the sick 
 and the newly committed prisoners. 
 
 3517. With regard to the chapel ; is the system of separation carried out there 
 as strictly as in the cells and in the exercising yards ? 
 
 Yes, quite so. 
 
 35.1 S. You have put in a plan to the Committee of the chapel in the gaol ; is 
 that a new chapel ? 
 
 Yes ; it is a chapel built by myself; it was all built by the prisoners, without 
 an architect or a single tradesman,, except one carpenter ; it is valued at 3,500/., 
 and is insured at 2,500/.. 
 
 (37.11.) tt2 3519- tTow
 
 332 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. A.Gardner,Esq. 35 > 9- How lonsj since was it built ? 
 
 .. About six years ago. {The JVitness describes the Plan to the Committee.) 
 
 24t pri 1863- 3520. Will you explain to the Committee the principle upon which the 
 - prisoners are admitted to the separate stalls from behind ? 
 
 The prisoners are admitted in the same way that they are admitted to their 
 cells, and from their cells to the labour-yards, with merely this difference, that 
 the officer is placed in the chapel to receive them, and another is placed in the 
 ward to let the prisoners out, and they are told out by a half-minute ij;lass, just 
 in the same way as 1 have before described. There is a passage behind every 
 row of seats, so that we can take out a prisoner, if he is unwell, without even 
 the next prisoner knowinp; it; whereas, in Pentonville, if one man is sick yoa 
 must take out the whole class before you can get at him, particularly if he is 
 in the centre. 
 
 3521. How long does it take to fill those stalls, and to withdraw the prisoners, 
 after the service is concluded ? 
 
 We take half an hour to fill the chapel and half an hour to empty it. 
 
 3522. Do yon believe that communciation passes between the prisoners when 
 they are in those stalls ? 
 
 1 do not. 
 
 3523. Are you aware whether the stalls themselves are defaced by indecent or 
 filthy inscriptions .' 
 
 They are not. In consequence of having built the chapel myself I look at the 
 seats al-.nost every day myself; and I specially place a mun there once a 
 week to go into every cell-stall, and spen 1 three or four hours in the chapel. 
 The prisoners are told, that if they distigure the stalls in the chapel they will be 
 punished with considerable severity, and I do not believe there is a single scratch 
 in the chapel. 
 
 3.524. Are the prisoners in the stalls in full sight of the chaplain and the 
 officers ? ' 
 
 Yes, of several officers. 
 
 3525. Are they allowed to sit during part of the service, or are they i-equired 
 to stand? 
 
 They sit and stand just the same as in any other place of worship. 
 
 3526. Do they Isueel down ? 
 
 •They can kneel down ; but v.e would prefer them not doing so. 
 
 3527. In the stall, when they kneel, are they hidden from view? 
 It they knelt we should just see their heads. 
 
 3528. Can. the prisoners, by those arrangements, see each other ? 
 
 They cannot see each other. I think I might as well tell your Lordships at 
 once, that the prisoners in our gaol are very seldom punished, although we are 
 supposed to have the worst class of prisoners. We have a smaller number of 
 punishments in our gaol than in any gaol of the same size in England. Take 
 the I'aunton Gaol, or the Gloucester Gaol, or any other large prison; from 
 what I can learn, they average from 450 to 500 per annum, but we do not average 
 more than 50. That is in consequence, I think, of the discipline being so very- 
 different. 
 
 3529. Will you state what your punishments are for breach of prison rules? 
 Bread and water for one day, two days, or three days ; we have flogged before 
 
 now, but we do not often do so. We have locked up the prisoners without bread 
 and water ; and in very extreme cases, where an officer's safety has been endan- 
 gered, we have placed a man in irons. 
 
 3530- Would you be willing to surrender the power of flogging ? 
 
 I should not like to see floggin<i done away with for the purpose of prison 
 discipline. I think if used a little more freely, all the gaols in England would be 
 better managed and quieter. 
 
 3531. It has been given in evidence by several witnesses, that flogging, when 
 applied under legitimate conditions, is very effective, and that in the opinion of 
 
 many,
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 333 
 
 many, an offence of the same kind has never been repeated after the administra- J.A.Gardner, Esq. 
 
 tion of one corporal punishment ; is that your opinion ? 
 
 It is not. 24th April 1863. 
 
 S.^i^s. Have you found it ineffective ? 
 
 I flogged at one period 162 prisoners in one year, and I am perfectly satisfied 
 that it did no good. The only good that flogging will do, in my opinion, is in 
 cases of breaches of prison discipline. A man does not like to be flogged, and 
 if iie were flogged at once he would never misconduct iiimself again ; but it 
 would never prevent him (rom committing felony ; it would be of no use in that 
 respect. 
 
 3 1,33. Do you not think tliat it is a most effective punishment for breach of 
 prison rules ? 
 Yes. 
 
 3534. If a man knows that for a breach of prison rules he would be imme- 
 diately flogged, and that the ])unishment would be immediate and»close upon the 
 action, do you not think that that would be very effective ? 
 
 The best possible punishment. 
 
 3.535- ^^ ould you be good enough to explain the difference between tiie effect 
 of the two punishments — flogging for a breach of prison I'ules, and flogging 
 which tornis a part of the sentence ? 
 
 When a man is at large, he commits an offence in the hope of never being 
 found out ; he risks it in fact ; when he is in gaol he is found out directly. 
 
 3536. He knows that there is no escape as far as detection is concerned? 
 Just so. 
 
 3537. Earl of Dudlej/.] Your opinion would be tliis, would it not, that a man' 
 about to commit a crime does not think of the consequences? 
 
 He does not think of the consequences. 
 
 3538. Chairman.'] To return to the subject of separation in the chapel, it has 
 been given in evidence that the eflect is very bad upon the minds of the prisoners, 
 because it depresses them, and irritates them, and induces them to pa\' less 
 attention to the service than they would if they were in close contact with each 
 other ; is that your opinion? 
 
 It is not ; the prisoners look forward to the Sunday with the greatest delight ; 
 it is the severest punishment we can possibly inflict upon a prisoner to prevent 
 him going to chapel on the Sunday. 
 
 3539. Is that for the sake of the service, or for the sake of the sermon? 
 
 It may possibly be for both ; we have a very nice service, and a very good 
 chaplain ; and, as a rule, they are very attentive ; no congregation can be more 
 orderly. 
 
 3^40. Earl of Djidlei/.] Do they join in the singing? 
 They do not. 
 
 3.541. Is there any singing? 
 
 Yes ; our singing is considered good. 
 
 3542. Do they join in the responses? 
 They do not ; they are quite silent. 
 
 3.543. Earl of Rouuiej/.] Who sings in the service ? 
 The warders, both male and female. 
 
 3544. Chairman.'] Is there service in the chapel every day? 
 
 The service in the chapel is daily ; but the males do not attend at the same 
 time as the females ; they go alternately. 
 
 3545. Do you find that the daily chapel becomes a mere routine performance 
 with the prisoners? 
 
 When all the prisoners went every day, the males and females together, they 
 found it irksome ; if ihey could stay away, they certainly would ; we thouijht 
 it would be best to separate them on that account, and to prevent the possibility 
 of relations signalling to each other. 
 
 (37- n.) T T 3 3546. Earl
 
 334 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 j.A.Gardner,Esq. 3546. Earl of Rouniei/.] Why slioukl it be irksome to have the men and \vo- 
 
 men in the chapel at llie same time? 
 
 24.th April 1S63. IBecaiise each class would go every day, and now they go alternately. 
 
 3547- Chairman.^ Do you not consider that three times a week is better per-' 
 haps than six ? 
 
 Yes, a great deal. As far as regards myself, I have been going to that cliapel 
 for 26 years almost every morning, with the exception of about 12 mornings in 
 tlie year, and twice on Sundays, and I find it very irksome. 
 
 354S. Ea\\ of Ronvieij.] Your business mainly tliere is to be watching those 
 men ? 
 
 Not exactly so ; 1 can see every one very well from my seat, but the attend- 
 ance every morning at a particular hour is irksome. 
 
 3549. Chairman.'] Are any of the warders told off for the express purpose of 
 chapel ? 
 
 The schoolmaster sits in front, in the organ loft, and there is a warder behind 
 every class. 
 
 35.50. Have you ever noticed that, during the address from the clergyman, 
 the prisoners exhibit any emotion, such as crying? 
 Yes, frequently, in the case of females. 
 
 3551. Do you not conceive that the separation by stalls is an advantage 
 under those circumstances, inasmuch as it enables each prisoner to conceal his 
 
 • emotion from his companions ? 
 
 Yes, it is ; prisoners, generally speaking, are thankful, and have told me that 
 without being separate it would be impossible to pay the attention they desire. 
 
 3552. How is the ventilation of the stalls secured ? 
 
 There is an Oj'ening in front, and an air-hole at the bottom, and also a large 
 cold-air shaft in the centre, from wiiich we can get any amount of fresh air. 
 
 3553. Is there anything in that plan which woidd prevent its adoption in any 
 ordinary prison chapel ? 
 
 Nothing whatever. 
 
 3554- Do you make use of that chapel as a schoolroom ? 
 
 We do not ; we have a very small room for the school, and one prisoner at a 
 time is taken in. 
 
 3.5j:'). Hom- many does the class consist of? 
 
 We do not form them in a class ; they are instructed separately, one at a time, 
 by the schoolmaster and the schoolmistress. 
 
 355G, Earl of Dudley.'] Do you find that they can get through the work in 
 the day by teaching them separately ? 
 
 Yes, and it is astonishing how^ they get on ; they get on faster than they would 
 in the National School ; they have nothing else to think of. 
 
 3557. How often does it come to each man's turn to be under the school- 
 master ? 
 
 I should think every other day perhaps ; the schoolmaster has nothing else to 
 do but to attend to the prisoners from nine o'clock in the morning; he sees as 
 many as he possibly can during the day ; he goes round and round the gaol 
 continually, and the schoolmistress the same. 
 
 3558. Chairman.] Mr. Perry is the inspector of your prison, is he not? 
 He is. 
 
 3559. Does he approve of that system of separation in chapel ? 
 
 Mr. I'erry has a very high opinion, I think, of our gaol ; he has been into the 
 chapel during Divine service, and he says it is the beat gaol chapel in England. I 
 do not know that he exactly approves of it, for he has never told me that he has or 
 has not approved of the separation by stalls ; but we could not well do without 
 that separation, because I know if the prisoners were not separated we should 
 not have so many good cases out of our gaol. I know well that there are 
 now, perhaps, 700 or 800 persons holding respectable situations who never saw 
 
 each
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 335 
 
 each other in gaol ; and they say that if they hail only been seen by some of the J. A. Gardner, Esq. 
 inmates, they never should have been able to obtain or retain situations. 
 
 3560. Earl of Dudley.] There is a record against them, is there not, and they -4t h Apnl 186 3. 
 are sentenced in public court ? 
 
 Yes ; they may be seen there for a sJiort time during trial. I know two boys 
 who were in my prison, both from the same place. I went into a shop to buy 
 some furniture for the use of the prison, antl a boy ran out to me, and said, 
 " Please, sir, do not say that you saw me." I asked him what he meant, and he 
 said that he had been in prison, but that he had got a good place, and he 
 intended to keep it. There was another boy in sight who had been in prison 
 at the same lime, and I asked the tirst one whether he saw any one that he 
 knew, and he said "No," showing tliat he did not recognise the other boy. 
 
 3561. Earl of Romnei/.] Was that a Bristol boy? 
 Yes. 
 
 3562. If he is tried in Bristol, and surrounded liy his friends, how is it that 
 he is not known ? 
 
 He may be known by his friends ; but the two bovs, never having seen each 
 other when they Mere in gaol or during trial, could not recognise each other in 
 the place where they were enijiloyed. 
 
 3563. C/uiirman] Had your chapel those separations when you first became 
 governor ? 
 
 No ; it was so confiued that M'e were obliged to build another, or enlarge the 
 gaol. 
 
 3564. Consequently, you have not had any experience of a chapel without 
 those separations ? 
 
 I have seen a chapel without separations. 
 
 35(ij. Do you believe, from your personal knowledge of the subject, that 
 communication goes on much more freely where there is no separation than 
 ■where there is ? 
 
 I know that in our own gaol, before the chapel was separated at all, in the 
 chapel en the old form, two years before I went there, one of the most daring 
 robbeiies committed in Bristol was concocted in the chapel, and afterwards 
 carried out. 
 
 3566. The Committee therefore understand that, in your opinion, separation 
 in chapel is a most valuable part of your system, that you would not dispense 
 with it, and that you have not experienced any disadvantage fom it? 
 
 No ; we have experienced tiie greatest advantage from it ; the prisoners them- 
 selves have told me that if it were not for tlie separation, they would not be 
 able to say their prayers. 
 
 35(17. Is the chaplain himself equally^ satisfied with it ? 
 He is perfectly satisfied. 
 
 3568. How frequently does the inspector visit the gaol ? 
 
 I cannot exactly answer that question; perhaps once in 12 or 14 montiis. 
 
 3569. How long does each visit of the inspector last ? 
 Three or four hours, sometimes calling again the next day. 
 
 3570. During that time does he go over the whole gaol } 
 
 Yes; he sees every prisoner. I generally keep a long distance behind him, 
 or, perhaps, wait at the gate, whilst he goes in, and says to every prisoner, "If you 
 have any complaint to make, I am the Inspector of Prisons, and you have an 
 opportunity of doing so." 
 
 3571. Earl of Ronmaj.] Does he look at your books? 
 Yes, he does. 
 
 3,572. And does he ask you whether you have visited every prisoner every 
 dav r 
 Yes. 
 
 (37.11.) tt4 3573. Is
 
 336 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ' '' 3.573- Is it your practice to visit every cell and every prisoner every day ? 
 h A '1 i86i ^es, every day ; indeed I visit them oftener tiiati that, for I am always on the 
 
 " premises, and I am rather active, and it is what I have taken some Lttle pleasure 
 in i'or some years past. 
 
 3574. Does the inspector, when he comes, examine to see whether the rules 
 of the prison are carried out in all points ? 
 
 Yes ; he is very particular in making inquiries, and, indeed, he puts words 
 into the prisoners' mouths, but they never make any complaint ; 1 wonder at their 
 not making complaint, as the discipline is more severe in our gaol, perhaps, than 
 in any other prison. 
 
 3j75- He has not only to see that the prisoners are properly treated, but that 
 the rules are properly carried out; does he take care to see that ? 
 
 Yes; there is not a part of the gaol that he does not see, nor anything but 
 what he asks about. 
 
 3576. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Do you think that there is any communication 
 between the prisoners during the night r 
 
 No ; there are two night warders always on duty. 
 
 3577- Can any voice be heard? 
 No. 
 
 3.578. Earl oi' Di/dki/.l Has there been any recommendation on the part of 
 your inspector to soften off this severe system .? 
 
 None whatever. 
 
 3.579. He accepts it such as it is, and reports upon it ? 
 
 Yes ; and I believe Sir Joshua Jebb also is very much pleased with our gaol ; 
 he has told me so. 
 
 3580. You stated that a great number of those prisoners were gone out into 
 the town of Bristol, and were new in good situations, and that you believe that 
 those situations have been obtained very much from the fact that they had not 
 been recognised by those who had been in prison with them during their imprison- 
 ment. Have you traced at all the case of second convictions, whether they get 
 placed out in the same manner } 
 
 They do not; 1 think when men come to gaol, and adopt thieving as a profes- 
 sion, they go on till they end with penal servitude. 
 
 3,58 r. After a second conviction you look forward to a man becoming an 
 habitual thief? 
 Quite so. 
 
 3,582. Chairnian.'] Are you aAvare of the difficulty which very often arises in 
 law courts in identifying a previously convicted prisoner ? 
 1 am. 
 
 3583. Have you ever considered, or have you ever adopted, any scheme by 
 which previously convicted prisoners may be more completely identified ? 
 
 I introduced some years ago (indeed I was the first who introduced them) the 
 daguerreotype portraits of the prisoners, and from having succeeded in one or two 
 cases, we introduced it more freely ; v.e now take a large number of portraits, and 
 1 think it would be very difficult for a man to es-cape detection in our gaol. I take 
 a stereoscopic picture, instead of a plain portrait, and I re(|uest the parties to 
 whom 1 send it to put it inio the stereoscope ; they have a better opportunity of 
 seeing the man before them standing out in relief. 
 
 3,584. Do you take a portrait of every prisoner who is committed to your 
 gaol ? 
 
 We do not. I do it myself, and I have no time to take so many- ^Ve merely 
 take portraits of those whom we do not know — railway thieves, and strangers 
 to the city, who arc taken up for picking pockets at the railway stations and in 
 railway carriages. 
 
 'S^ 
 
 3585. Have you found the practical advantages of that system? 
 Yes, I have found out a great many by that means. On one occasion I recollect 
 an officer of mine being offered a large sum of money by the wife of a prisoner to 
 
 release
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 337 
 
 release him. He ^vas offered 100/. This was reported to me; and I thought J. A.Gardner,Eiiq. 
 
 that as the man had only three months more to serve, he certainly must be wanting 
 
 somewhere else. I took his portrait directly, and sent it round to perhaps 40 or 241)1 April 1H63. 
 
 50 different gaols, and he was recognised at last at Dover. I had an order from - — 
 
 the Secretary of State to remove him, instead of discharging him. I removed 
 him on a Friday, and on the following Friday he was sentenced to 15 years' 
 transportation tor highway robbery. ♦ 
 
 3.586. Have you had other instances of the same sort? 
 Yes, many. 
 
 3.587. Did the judge who presided at the trial make any comment upon that? 
 I do not know. I was not there at the time ; but it was entirely through the 
 
 portrait that he was recognised. 
 
 3588. Are you of opinion that if the system were more extensively carried 
 out, of taking photographic portraits of all the different prisoners in the different 
 prisons, and if communication took place between the governors of the different 
 gaols, that would lead to the identitication of a vast number of previously con- 
 victed prisoners ? 
 
 Yes ; and, if it was well carried out, I think it would be almost impossible for 
 a man to escape. 
 
 3589. Would there be any practical difficulty in carrying it out? 
 None whatever. 
 
 3,590. Will you put in evidence a return of the form which you use in for- 
 warding the photograph of a prisoner ? 
 
 Yes. This was the form {producing the same) which I introduced at the time 
 when I commenced the system of taking photographs of the prisoners. I was 
 the first who introduced it, and I have got it introduced into pei'haps 20 or 25 
 gaols, and they all adopt this plan. A portrait is the best part of a man's 
 description ; and if it is w-ell taken, and particularly one this size, it is almost 
 impossible to mistake the features of the man. 
 
 3591. Earl of Dudley.'] You say that there is no difficulty about taking the 
 photographs of the men. I presume you mean that, practically, they have not 
 refused to let them be taken ? 
 
 They have not. But 1 have taken them walking, unknown to them. 
 
 3592. A prisoner, by closing his eyes and distorting his features, and moving 
 during the seconds of time that the portrait is being taken, would destroy the 
 likeness, would he not ? 
 
 I have never met with but one who did that, and I took that man's portrait 
 when he was walking. In order to try the experiment. I took out one of my 
 domestic servants into the garden, who was placed at a certain point of the |iath 
 Avhere it was not possible to see the camera, and at a long distance. I found 
 after some time ttiat I succeeded very well ; and I told the officer to come to 
 me with the man ; the moment he came there I pulled out the slide, and suc- 
 ceeded in a second ; it was quite good enough to catcli the man by. 
 
 3593. Supposing there is any op[)osition to your doing it, you have the 
 means of carrying it out ? 
 
 Yes. I could take a man through a small aperture ; I do not think there 
 would be very much difficulty in getting him to sit. You may now and then 
 meet with a man like the one I have referred to, but you might catch an 
 opportunity, or you might build a place for the purpose. 
 
 3594. C/iainniDi.'] Do the prisoners themselves dread being photo,graphed ? 
 They have frequently said to me, " I know what you are at ; I have been in 
 
 gaol; 1 will tell you all about it" ; ami I have told them that they need not tell 
 me, as it might be used against them ; and upon that I have taken the portrait. 
 
 359.5. Is not the cost of the apparatus very trifling? 
 
 It is a very trifling sum ; but it would be quite as well to have a good one. 
 
 3596. Have you ever considered the expediency of affixing, by means of gun- 
 powder or some other device, a mark upon the person of a prisoner upon a 
 second conviction ? 
 
 (37. 11.) U V I have
 
 338 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J.A.Gardner,Esq ^ have often thoui^ht that as deserters are marked with the letter D, it would 
 not do very j^reat harm to mark a thief, and I should mark him by a tnachiiie 
 
 24tli April 1863. made upon the principle of a cupping machine. 1 would rub him over with 
 
 — ■ — gunpowder and water properly mixed, and mark him " Bristol gaol;" it might 
 
 be done in one single second, without any pain or hurt. 
 
 3.597. Do you conceive that there would be anything degrading in it? 
 Tsothinii' whatever; he would never be able to get it out ; it would be placed 
 of course behind him. 
 
 3598. I mean would there not be a sense of degradation produced on the mind 
 of a prisoner r 
 
 I should think there would. 
 
 3599. Earl of Dudleij.'\ Would it have a healthier moral effect upon him in 
 your belief? 
 
 Yes ; I believe it would prevent many from coming to gaol. 
 
 3600. Chairman.'] Do you think that it would interfere with his obtaining 
 employnient in any way, after he had left the prison : 
 
 No, it would never be known. I have often thought that if a prisoner were 
 marked with the name of the gaol, and the date of his conviction, it would be 
 impossible for him to get it out, if placed where I have suggested. 
 
 3601. Does not, practically, the employment of flogging mark a man in such 
 a way that the traces of it are generally left for the rest of his life? 
 
 Never ; the flogging that we have been in the habit of enforcing lately, which 
 is onlv three dozen lashes in the week, would not mark even a child, fr, will 
 look very bad for a i'ew days, but directly the inuHammation goes off, which may 
 take only two or three days, there is no mark left. 
 
 3602. What is the limit of the flogging that you inflict ? 
 We give from two to tliree dozen lashes. 
 
 3603. Are you aware of an order from the Home Office reducing the four 
 dozen lashes administered to Government prisoners for prison olfeuces to two 
 dozen ? 
 
 We have received an order for adults not to receive more than three dozen 
 lashes, and juveniles not to receive move than two dozen. 
 
 3604 Earl of Dudley.] The number of lashes to be inflicted either upon an 
 adult or a juvenile comes down with his sentence, does it not ? 
 We have never any sentence sent to us from the Home Office. 
 
 3605. When a sentence is passed by the court, is it not the practice, in Bristol, 
 to name what number of lashes are to be given ? 
 
 It is not. I may possibly have seen the number specified once. 
 
 3G06. Is the sentence simply " to be flogged once or twice," without mentioning 
 the number of lashes? 
 Yes. 
 
 3607. Is it not the rule to mention the number of lashes ? 
 
 i have never seen any rule of that sort ; we never have it mentioned ; we all 
 know, in the gaols, that we cannot give more than two dozen lashes to a juvenile 
 and three dozen to an adult. 
 
 3008. Lnrd Steivard.] Is the instrument for flogging the same now as it was, 
 or has there been any alteration in it? 
 
 It is precisely the "same ; 18 inches the lash, and 18 inches the handle. 
 
 3609. Chairman!] Will you describe to the Committee what the forms of hard 
 labour are in your gaol r 
 
 The trcadvvhcei ; but we really do not use it as hard labour; we use it because 
 we cannot help ourselves ; we use it for pumping water. 
 
 3610. Do you use the crank r 
 
 We iiave no crank; we |)ick oakum, make shoes, and make the clotliing of 
 the "-aol, and do the work of ihc gaol; we do all the building on the premises, 
 and we have done so for the last 20 years. 
 
 3611. How
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 339 
 
 3611. How can you do tliat without bringing the prisoners into associa- J. A. Gardner. Esq.. 
 lion ? 
 
 When we built the chapel we had 20 prisoners together ; we were compelled to 24th April 1863. 
 work them together ; we could not work them separately. 
 
 3612. Lord Stetiorcl.] Were they veiled, or masked r 
 
 No ; we were obliged to unmask theui ; but that is the only exception ; every- 
 thing else we do separately, with the exception of the number before mentioned. 
 I should tell vour Lordship that the chaprl was built without asking for money. 
 The Corporation voted a sum, but I thought that we would do without; we built 
 it entirely without. We made the money ourselves; we made some little things 
 on the premises during the two years that we were at work, and with the profits 
 aiisinu from that we built the chapel. We used the inmates in the gaol for that 
 purpose, but we Avorked up things that we never worked up since or before. We 
 made mats and baskets, and other things, and every prisoner was at work in the 
 best way he possibly could. 
 
 3613. Chairman.'] Do you approve of the use of the treadwheel as an instru- 
 ment of penal discipline ? 
 
 The treadwheel is no good in that respect. 
 
 3614. On Avliat do you ground that belief? 
 
 A prisoner, when he is aware that he is not at productive labour, is care- 
 less and reckless as regards himself and every one else, but if you place him at 
 remunerative labour he is well conducted, and will do a fair day's work. 
 
 3615. Have you not stated that at present the treadwheel is employed for the 
 pumping of water, and is not the pumping of water productive labour ? 
 
 Yes; it saves us about 100/. a year. 
 
 3616. Would a prisoner be open to that feeling which you have described 
 •when he knew that he was pumping water and saving the prison 100 /. a year ? 
 
 Quite so ; they do not think that anything; they do not think that pumping 
 water is any service ; but if they were grinding corn, or anything of that sort, 
 they might fancy it was remunerative labour. 
 
 3617. VVould there be any practical difficulty in applying the treadwheel to 
 grindimr corn ? 
 
 it would not pay; at Gloucester [laol, I believe, they lost 50/. a year by 
 grinding corn, which they have since discontinued. 
 
 3618. Your object, therefore, as I understand, is to make the labour of the 
 prisoners remunerative to the gaol ? 
 
 I would rather see it remunerative than not. 
 
 Sfiig. Is there not a risk, by pursuing that system too far, of losing sight of 
 the penal element in the hope of obtaining a money remuneration ? 
 
 I can hardly answer that question; we like to make as much money as 
 we can, to save the gaol from costing as much as it otherwise would, and if the 
 prisoners, when at large, earned, as they ought, an honest livelihood by their 
 labour, we think there is no harm in their assisting to support themselves whilst 
 in prison. 
 
 3620. Do not you, for the sake of that, discard the really useful element of 
 penal discipline upon the treadwheel ? 
 
 I think not, because the other labour is quite as irksome. 
 
 3621. How do you punish short- sentenced prisoners as regards labour? 
 They work just the same as long ones ; they take their turn at the tread- 
 wheel. 
 
 3622. Do vou employ them in industrial occupation? 
 I do. ■ 
 
 3623. In the case of a person who is committed to prison for 10 days, and 
 perhaps knows nothing of industrial employment, ha's no time during those 10 
 days to learn it, how would you act in that case ? 
 
 We would put him to oakum picking. If he was a shoemaker, we would put 
 (37. II.) u u 2 him
 
 340 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 if". A. Gardner, Es(/. liimto wovk at shoetiiakiiig, or a carpenter at carpentering, immediately after 
 
 his committal. 
 24tli April 1863. 
 
 3624. Would you give him the treadwheel r 
 
 No, we would not give a regular tradesman, such as a carpenter, a mason, or 
 a tailor, the treadwheel ; we would make better use of their time. 
 
 3625. Do you assign the industrial labour by piece-work ? 
 We do not. 
 
 3626. What check have you upon the prisoners working ? 
 
 We have always an officer in fi'ont of them, and they are compelled to do a 
 fair day's work ; if they do not do what we call a fair day's work, they are 
 reported for neglecting their work, and punished. 
 
 3627. What is the punishment? 
 
 We may possibly caution them the first time, and we give them bread and 
 water afterwards. We do not pay them for their labour, but we give them a 
 small sum when tliey are discharged, to put them out in the world. 
 
 3028, Looking at the great inequality which necessarily must exist between 
 different prisoners in point of stature, strength, size, and skill, is not it very difK- 
 cult for the warder in charge to estimate what you term a fair pro)3ortion of 
 work ? 
 
 No; the size of a man does not at all interfere with his labour ; a small man 
 can pick just as much oakum as a large one, and a small man can work on the 
 treadwheel just as well as a heavy one ; there is no difference at all in that 
 respect. 
 
 362q. Duke of Rkhnoml.'] Did you not state that you do not give the tread- 
 wheel to short-sentenced prisoners ? 
 
 We do ; but not in all cases. If a man came in who was a carpenter, or a 
 cabinet maker, or any trade, so that we could possibly make use of him, we should 
 put him to work at his trade at once ; if he knew no trade we should give bini 
 oakum picking, with a turn on the treadwheel at times. 
 
 3630. A tailor or a carpenter you would employ at his own trade? 
 Yes ; one carpenter will maintain six prisoners free of cost to the City. 
 
 3631. Then I understand that if a tador or a shoemaker, or a carpenter comes 
 in sentenced to a short term of imprisonment, he would be employed during the 
 whole of his sentence at tailoring, or shoemaking, or carpentering, and not upon 
 the treadwheel ? 
 
 Just so. 
 
 36^2. But if an agricultm-al labourer comes in, who knew nothing about 
 tailoring or carpentering, he would be placed on the treadv;heel ? 
 
 He would do garden-work, perhaps ; he would commence with oakum- 
 picking, the treadwheel, cleaning the part of the ward he is in, and so come 
 round to his work again. 
 
 3633. Then so far as I gather from you, the effect would be to place the tailor, 
 or the shoemaker, or the clirpenter, in a better position than a man who comes 
 in as an auricultural labourer knowing no trade, because the former would 
 be workimr at that trade and occupation to which he was accustomed, and 
 which would therefore to him not be difficult, whereas the other man would be 
 picking oakum and working at the treadwheel ; is not that so ? 
 
 It would be still hard labour ; we do have a fair day's work out of them, and 
 they get nothing lor their labour ; it would be a hard day's work after all. 
 
 3634. But the t-.iilor or the shoemaker out of doors would work hard ? 
 
 Yes; but if we \vere not to work the tradesmen who are prisoners we should 
 have to pay for the performance of that labour. 
 
 3635. It is not the reason that 1 want now, but is it not the fact that a tailor or 
 a shoemaker committing a crime, and being sentenced to three weeks' imprison- 
 ineut in your prison, would simply be employed in doing that which be would 
 be doing out of doors in his own shop, had he not committed a crime, whereas 
 
 aa
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 341 
 
 an agricultural labourer who committed the same crime, and was sentenced for J. A. Gardner, Esq. 
 
 the same time, would be at Moik on the treadwhecl or picking oakum ? 
 
 Yes ; they would not be employed at the mill. 24111 April 1863. 
 
 3636. The tailor or the shoemaker would be doing the same thing as if he 
 liad been at his own house ? 
 
 Yes ; but he would be doing it shut up at the same time, and subject to the 
 routine of prison discipline. 
 
 3637. Marquess of .Sa/wto/'j/.] How did 3'ou keep up the separation of prison- 
 ers in such labour as building the chapel ? 
 
 There were 20 prisoners whom we selected to work togetlicr on that 
 occasion. 
 
 3638. Those 20 were allowed to communicate .- 
 They were. 
 
 3630. Then it was only for that particular occasion that you departed from 
 your system ? 
 That is so. 
 
 36^0. CJiair)}ian.'\ Which form of punishment do you believe the prisoners 
 prefer ; the treadwheel, or industrial occupation ? 
 
 I do not think they like being on the mill; not as we formerly worked it ; 
 that is to say, for the whole day together ; we used to put on section 1 from 
 the morning till breakfast time ; another from after chapel till dinner; another 
 section from dinner lime till locking up time ; then they did not like the tread- 
 wheel ; but now I think, particularly in the winter, they would prefer having 
 'their hour at the tieadwheel lo not having it. 
 
 3641. By the abandonment of the treadwheel to the extent to which you now 
 carry it, are you not sacriticing the penal and irksome element of prison dis- 
 cipline which makes that prison discipline so very deterrent to the prisoners 
 themselves ? 
 
 I do not know that we are ; we have introduced, as every other gaol perhaps 
 'has done, all sorts of work that we can put men to. We do not like to see men 
 upon the treadwheel for a longer time than we can possibly help for the supply 
 of water, any other labour being more remunerative. 
 
 3642. There Avould be, however, this difference, would there not, between you r 
 system and that of any other gaol, that whereas in many other gaols the vast 
 majority of prisoners would have been taken from the rural districts and from 
 the class of agricultural labourers, in your case they are mostly inhabitants of 
 the town, and many of them are accustomed already to trade of some sort ? 
 
 No, we have very feu tradesmen ; indeed at the present time we have not one 
 
 tradesman on the premises ; they are all thieves. When I say we work our 
 
 •tradesmen, I will venture to say, speaking Avithin compass, that we never have 
 
 ^hree at a time. During the whole time that the masons were on strike we 
 
 never had a mason, and we never had more than one carpenter at a time. 
 
 3643. How long does it require to instruct a thief in the trade of a carpenter 
 or a tailor ? 
 
 AVe never attempt it. 
 
 3044. Lord Steward.'] How did you contrive to build your chapel ? 
 
 We scolded them into it ; we had only one carpenter during that time, and 
 we had no mason ; the stones are beautifully polled, quite as well as in any 
 ■building ; the man who polled the stones had never been so employed before, 
 he has got a situation now under the Corporation, and is one of the best stone 
 pollers in Bristol. 
 
 3t)45. What description of man was he? 
 A labouring man. 
 
 3646. What is polling a stone ? 
 Making one side of the stone smooth. 
 
 3647. Marquess of 6'«//A^Mrj/.] In this return of judicial statistics of 18(J1 
 •\\\w\\ 1 have in my hand, the profit of the Bristol Gaol is stated at 57/. IG*. 
 on the industrial labour r 
 
 That is merely on the oakum picking, on the oakum sold at the time. 
 
 (37. II.) u u3 3648- Do
 
 342 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J -i Gardner, Esq. 3^4^- Do vou keep anv account of the profits ? 
 We do. 
 
 24111 April 1863. 
 
 3649. Can you put in such an account ? 
 
 I have nothing with me more than what your Lordship lias before 3'ou, and 
 you may depend that is correct. We have been going on oakum pickint; since 
 then ; that is the profit upon the oakum that was sold ; we may possibly have 
 eight or ten tons by us at present, and that would produce perhaps, 105 /. profit ; 
 we do not return the protits until it is really sold. 
 
 3().-")0. Vou stated, did you not, that the profits of one carpenter would main- 
 tain six prisoners ? 
 
 We do not show the jjrofits for work done in prison, such as building or 
 carpentering, or repairing the prison in any way; we do not show that as a 
 profit; if we did, it would be a large amount. 
 
 3651. Earl o^ Dudley.'] You consider, then, that you have a discretion to do 
 away with the sentence of hard labour, as passed by the Courts? 
 
 We do not do away with hard labour at all ; every work that we put the 
 prisoner to do is hard labour. 
 
 3652. I will take your own description ; under the eyes of the officers you get 
 a fair day's work from the man, or he is reported r 
 
 Yes, we do. 
 
 3653. A hard day's labour you cannot get from him? 
 I really think we do ; I am satisfied that we do. 
 
 3654. Then there is this difi'erence between the two terms ; your own words 
 ■were " a fair day's work," whereas the sentence of the Court is " hard labour?" 
 
 I think that our fair day's work would be a hard day's work, from the fact of 
 their being watched, and their having no time for relaxation at all; on the female 
 side we have no tread wheel, and yet they arc sentenced in the same way. 
 
 3655. You have devoted yourself very much to the laborious part of the 
 system of the gaol, and not to the penal part of it, namely, the treadwheel ; you 
 told a noble Lord just now that if you had any tradesmen in gaol you made them 
 work at their trades, but that they would not do as much in the day as they 
 would if they were free men, out of gaol r 
 
 They would not. 
 
 36.5G. Tlierefore it is not a hard day's work ? 
 1 think it is for the time that they are at work. 
 
 3657. It is a compulsory day but not a hard day ? 
 Yes. 
 
 3658. With regard to a labourer who comes in, who is not capable of working 
 at any trade, you cumfiel him to do, first, the wheel labour, as long as it is w^anted 
 for the forcing up of water, and after that whatever you can set him to best r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 30,'i(). Do you consider that you get a hard day's work out of him r 
 Not harder than in the other case, because the treadwheel is not sufficiently 
 long; it is onlv an hour, perhaps half an liour; it is merely for the purpose of 
 pumping the Avater, and directly the cisterns are full the treadwheel is stopped; 
 we do not like to waste the water. 
 
 3(160. ^^"hat Avould be your objection to making the wheel grind your own 
 corn, and be productive in that way: 
 
 I do not think that it would pay ; it does not pay in any of the gaols. I only 
 go from what 1 have been told at Gloucester. 
 
 3661. You have stated distinctly, have you not, that your principle in the 
 Bristol gaol is to make as much as you can out of the labour of the prisoners to 
 keep down the expense.^ 
 
 I do. 
 
 3662. Do you think, that in carrying that out which is a good principle per 
 se, you rre justified in ignoring the sentence of the law, which is hard labour: 
 
 I do
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 343 
 
 I do not think that it has ever struck the magistrates that we do so, in placing j j^ Gardner E^n 
 the prisoners to work at whatever they can wuvk at. 
 
 2,^6-;',. If you were asked the question, you would draw a distinction between "^^'^ -^P'''' '-^^'i- 
 
 hard labour and industrial occupation, would vou not? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3664. Industrial occupation would he everything th;it they did in the way of 
 mat making and other trades; but h;ird labour must be either in the form of the 
 wheel or the crank, must it not ? 
 
 No ; there are many harder kinds of labour which you can introduce into a 
 gaol. I have some men at some very hard laljonr indeed, namely, laying down 
 four or five yards, and making the aspiialte on the premises. I think that is 
 exceedingly hard work. I see the men in a perspiration continually. 
 
 366.3. You have no power, have you, of compellinii' a man to do hard labour 
 if he is not wiUing to do it ? 
 But we have the treadwheel. 
 
 3666. But if a man says that he will only give you an unwilling day's work, 
 you cannot get a hard day's work from him 1 
 We cannot, but we punish him for not doing so. 
 
 3C67. In one uord, whatever your practice may be, the wheel or the crank is 
 the only compulsory hard labour? 
 That is all. 
 
 3668. Chairman.'] What is the dietary table which is in force in your gaol? 
 The ofKcial dietary. 
 
 3669. In fact, that which is recommended for adoption by the Secretary of 
 State ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3670. Is that, in j'our opinion, an adequate and satisfactory scale of diet? 
 I think that it is considerably too high. 
 
 3671. Would you state in which of the classes you consider it too high? 
 In all the classes with the exception of the tii'st seven days. 
 
 367-2. In the four subsequent stages do you think that it would be possible,- 
 without injury to the prisoners and at the same time with benefit to the system, 
 to reduce that diet r 
 
 Quite so. 
 
 3673, Would you reduce the quality or the quantity? 
 I would reduce them b(jth. 
 
 3674. Under that dietary the practice is that the prisoner should commence 
 with the' dietary the particular class to which he may happen to be sentenced, is 
 it not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3675. Would it not, in your opinion, be desirable that an alteration should be 
 made in that respect, and that the diet should be progressive, each prisoner rising 
 as it were through the several stages of the diet, and whether he was sentenced for 
 four motiths or a year, passing through all of them witliout exception? 
 
 It would. I would just say that, with our present dietary, we weigh every 
 prisoner coming in and going out ; they increase in weight from 7 lbs. to 10 lbs. 
 and 10 lbs. 
 
 3676. Is that the case with prisoners of the smallest or the longest sentences r 
 All sentences. 
 
 3677. Is there not generally a falling off after the first month or so ? 
 Not at all ; they increase rapidly after the first month. 
 
 367S. Does the transition from gross iiitemperance and a very dissolute life 
 on the p;!rt of a prisoner when he is committed to prison, involve a necessity in 
 your opinion for a more liberal diet ? 
 
 (37.11.) uu4 Not
 
 344 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 J. A. Gardner, Esq. Not at all ; the womeii at first get very thin ; they feel it very much indeed, 
 but we do not notice it in the men ; perliaps a girl may lose 14 or 15 lbs. in a 
 ;:4ih April 18(13. month, but afterwards she gets stout rapidly. 
 
 3670. Is that falling- off in your opinion from any change in the diet itself, oi- 
 ls it from the strictness of the new prison discipline ? 
 
 No ; I think it is in consequence of their not being able to get their usual 
 drink, and until they get the better of the loss, they sink rapidly for a month. 
 
 3680. Will not the enforced temperance of the prison system sometimes have 
 a beneficial effect upon the lieallh of the i)risoner? 
 It will. 
 
 36S1. In vour opinion the Government dietary in the three last classes is ex- 
 cessive, both in quantity and in quality i 
 Yes. 
 
 3682. Lord Steivard.] Are you prepared to say to what extent you think that 
 the dietary might safely be reduced • 
 
 I cannot at this moment. I am drawing up a dietary for our magistrates to 
 place before the Secretary of State, and 1 think that there could be a great altera^ 
 lion in the gruel and in the quantity of meat in the soup. 
 
 3683. Chairman.'] The Committee are therefore to understand tliat you con- 
 sider that the dietary is too high for the prisoners who are in confinement in. 
 Bristol gaol ? 
 
 J do. 
 
 3684. Would you apply that same observation to the prisoners of a gaol in 
 which the treadwheel was in force from six to eight hours a day ? 
 
 I certainly should. 
 
 3685. You consider that the addition of that form of hard labour would not 
 involve that addition of food which would be represented in those tables ? 
 
 Not at all ; when our treadwheel went all day we fed our prisoners pre- 
 cisely the same as wc feed them now, and they increased at the same rate as 
 they do now. 
 
 3686. Earl of Dudh'}/.] Up to what period did 3'ou continue to use the wheel 
 as a common means of punishment? 
 
 Up to two years ago. 
 
 3687. Did that lead, in a great measure, to greatly developing rupture ? 
 Not at all. 
 
 36S8. Should you say that half the men, according to the surgeon's report, 
 from your own experience, would be incapable of treadwheel labour either from a 
 disposition to or actually existing rupture .' 
 
 No ; we might not have more than one or two in the gaol unfit for hard labour 
 on that account ; we examine every man directly he is convicted, and 1 ask the 
 sursreon to aive me a certificate of all those that are unfit for labour. 
 
 368Q. Earl of Ronnie^.] Did you ever know a man ruptured on the wheel ? 
 Never. 
 
 3690. Lord Steward.} Have the recommitments diminished in number during 
 the last two years? 
 
 We seldom or never have recommitments unless they are professional thieves ; 
 others come in and have a look at ns and they get sick of the gaol, and we do 
 not sec them again. 
 
 3691. So that, in that respect, there is no very great difference in the last two 
 years as compared with former years? 
 
 Very little difference. 
 
 3(5()J. [Marquess of Sal/shi/ri/.'\ On comparison of the expenses of each pri- 
 soner in your gaol, and in the county gaol of (jlloiicestcr, I find that the average 
 expense of prisoners in your gaol is 3H. 8s. 8^/., and the average of the 
 Ciloncestershire County Gaol is merely 24/. 12.v. 10^/. ; how do you account for 
 that ditierence between 31/. H.v. 8d., and 24/. 12a-. \0d.} 
 
 Provisions
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 345 
 
 Provisions are perhaps dearer in Bristol than they can be bought for in J. A.Gardner, Esq. 
 Gloucestershire. It is from no o:her reason than the ditierence in the cost of ~ — T 
 
 provisions, excepting the staffof officers being larger in proportion than in o-aols ^"^ P" ^ ^' 
 of modern construction. 
 
 3693. The earnings again in the Gloucester Gaol, are 248/., whereas in the 
 Bristol County Gaol, they are only 57/. ? 
 
 They manufacture largely cloth sacking, and things of that sort at Gloucester; 
 we do not ; picking oakum is tlie principal remunerative labour we enforce, but 
 a large amount of other labour is performed. 
 
 3604. How is your prison kept ; is it by a borough rate ? 
 Yes ; by a borough rate. 
 
 369.5. Are the visiting magistrates appointed by the Crown ? 
 They are aj)pointed magistrates by the Lord Chancellor, and become visiting 
 justices in rotation. 
 
 3696. Are your borouth rates excessively high ? 
 They are supposed to be rather high. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, One o'clock. 
 
 (37. 11.) X X
 
 [ 347 ] 
 
 Die Martis, S8° Ajmlis 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT 
 
 Duke of Richmond. 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvon. 
 Earl of Romney. 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY. 
 
 Lord WoDEHorsE. 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON in the Chair. 
 
 Evidence on 
 Prison Discipline. 
 
 WILLLTAM AUGUSTUS GUY, Esquire, m. b., is called in, and examined as 
 
 follows : 
 
 3697. I BELIEVE you are a physician, and Fellow of the College of Physicians ? 
 Yes, I am a Fellow of the London College of Physicians. 
 
 3698. I think you also exercise the medical superintendence of the Millbank 
 prison ? 
 
 I am the medical superintendent of Millbank prison. 
 
 3699. How long have you held that office ? 
 Nearly four years. 
 
 3700. "Who was your predecessor ? 
 
 Dr. Baly. * 
 
 3701. Were Dr. Ealy's duties confined to Millbank? 
 
 They were confined to Millbank as mine are, but he was consulted, as I am, 
 by the Directors of Convict Prisons upon questions relating to dietaries, or to the 
 health of the prisoners. 
 
 3702. 1 understand that your official duties confine you to Millbank, and do 
 not extend to Pentonville or any of the Government prisons ? 
 
 They are confined to Millbank, except that I should be consulted on any question 
 relating to convict prisons generally. 
 
 3703. During those four years the whole question of sanitary inquiry with 
 reference to prison discipline has been very much before you, lias it not ? 
 
 It has been constantly before me. 
 
 3704. Have you ever made any experiments on the subject? 
 
 I have made experiments and reports upon the dietaries and the health of the 
 prisoners ; indeed I make a report every month, because I see every prisoner in 
 the prison once a month, and make a monthly report of the state in which I find 
 the prison and the prisoners. 
 
 3705. In fact, you have considered the question of prison diet with regard both 
 to labour, and also with regard to the health of the prisoners ? 
 
 Yes, I may say both with regard to labour and to health. 
 
 37ori. Will you explain to the Comfnittee, in the first instance, the nature of 
 Millbank as a prison ? 
 
 Millbtiuk jirison is a dejiot prison. Prisoners whose sentences exceed three 
 years are sent to us from the county and borough gaols. They remain with us a 
 
 (37. 12.) X X 2 certain 
 
 W, A, Gxuj, Esq., 
 M. ii. 
 
 28th April 1863.
 
 348 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEVOUE THE 
 
 /F. A. Guij, Esq., certain time, and are then sent by us to tlie several convict establishments, Port- 
 
 M.ii. land, Portsmouth, Chatham, Dartmoor, Woking, and in the case of women to 
 
 „Q,i \~T or Brixton, and now to Parkhurst in the Isle of Wieht, according- to the state in 
 
 _______ whicn we rmd them. Ihe robust men are sent to Portland; the less robust 
 
 men, who are capable of a full day's labour, to Chatham and Portsmouth ; the 
 invalids that are still capable of some labour to Dartmoor; and the invalids' that 
 are bedridden, or who would be confined to the infirmary, are sent to Wokino- 
 
 3707. During the earlier portion of their confinement in Millbank, are tlie 
 prit^oners kept in separate confinement ? 
 
 Yes, they are kept in separate confinement for about five months. 
 
 3708. Therefore I presume that a prisoner at Millbank during those first five 
 months of his imprisonment may be compared in condition and general circum- 
 stances to a prisoner who is sentenced for tlie longer periods of sentence in the 
 county and borough gaols ? 
 
 Yes, 1 think the two may be fairly compared ; not exactly, but fairly. 
 
 370Q. What is the length of the period during which the prisoners are confined 
 at Millbank ? 
 
 It viirics according to the state of the prisons which are to receive them, and 
 according to the orders that we get to send tiiem away, whether to Portland, 
 Chatham or Portsmouth ; the theory is that M'e keep them about nine months, 
 the first seven months or so, in separation, and after that in association ; but 
 it does not really amount to nine months ; very often, at certain periods, it 
 amounts only to seven months, and at certain other periods only to fiive months, 
 or even less. 
 
 3710. I believe that you are acquainted with the return which wns printed by 
 order of the House of Commons in 1857, with regard to the dietary of con- 
 victs ? 
 
 Yes, I am acquainted with it, and have carefully examined it, and am prepared 
 to give the general results of the dietaries which it contains, if the Committee 
 desire it. 
 
 371 1 . Will you be good enough tojiive the Committee the result of your expe- 
 rience ac(|uired at IMillbank during the four years tliat you have had a knowledge 
 of the treatment which is adopted there ? 
 
 The information obtained at Millbank is extremely valuable. Your Lordships 
 are aAvare that in the S]iririg of 1823 there broke out an epiilemic of scurvy and 
 dysentery at Millbank, one of the most severe epidemics which ever scourged 
 any prison either at home or abroad, and the history of that ei)idemic 
 is very important as bearing upon the question of what would be a snfiicient 
 dietary. The dietary in 1822, prior to the breaking out of this epidemic, con- 
 sisted of these elements — 1C8 ounces of bread jier week, 24 ounces of boiled 
 beef, and 112 ounces of potatoes, making a total ot solid food of 304 ounces 
 per week, to Avhich there was added eight pints of broth or soup, and 14 ])iiits of 
 gruel or porridge. The medical superintendent of that date reported that the 
 diet was too good for the prisoners, and said that they weie sufiering from 
 diseases ]iroduced by over-feeding, and he made suggestions for a reduction 
 of the dietary ; but the then Committee of the ])rison, who thought themselves 
 wiser than he, had their own scheme, which consisted in retaining the IGS ounces 
 of bread, but striking ofl' the meat and the potatoes, increasing the eight pints of 
 broth or SOU]) to 14 ])ints, and dimini'-hing the gruel or porridge fnim 14 pints 
 down io 7 pints. '1 liev struck ctl' all the meat and all the potatoes, and substituted 
 a very weakbrfith — it did not deserve the name of soup — one ox-head distributed 
 over 100 rations, and that one oxhead sometimes distributed over a hirger 
 number than the 100. The result of that reduction of tliet uas the outl)reak of 
 scurvy and dysentery in the following year. Some symptoms of scurvy appeared 
 in the aulumn of the year in which the diet was reduced ; and in the sjmng 
 of the following year, the two diseases, scurvy and dysentery, developed tlieni- 
 selvts under a very marked form indeed. 
 
 3712. With reference to that statement, are you aware whether it was ])roved 
 at the lime, or has it since been proved to your satisfaction, that tliat j)ortion of 
 the reduction which was so injurious, and which led to the outbreak of tiie scurvy, 
 was the absence of the vegetable element, or the absence of the meat element ? 
 
 My
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 349 
 
 My impression is, and T can mention to your Lordships the ground of that IF. A. Guy, Esq., 
 impiession, that it was not simply the reduction in the quantity cf food, con- m. b. 
 
 siderable as it was, but it was the total omission of the potato element in the diet, ^g^^j^ ApriFiSn^. 
 
 3713. You would lay more stress upon the absence of the potato element than 
 you would upon the absence of meat or bread ? 
 
 I should. 
 
 3714. Was that the opinion of Dr. Baly? 
 
 It was his very decided opinion ; and he published some valuable essays, in 
 which he stated his reasons for entertaining- that opinion. 
 
 37 15. Was he the medical superintendent at the period of the outbreak ? 
 
 No ; he was medical superintendent for about 1 9 years prior to ray appoint- 
 ment, but not at that time ; but he went back to the facts of that outbreak, and 
 added fresh facts of his own, obtained from other sources. 
 
 3716- Had the prisoners suB'ered previously to 1822, from the effect of the 
 excessive diet ? 
 
 Tbe medical superintendent of that date thought that they had, and leportecj 
 accordingly, that the dietary was then excessive ; that was his opinion. 
 
 3717. Earl of Ixomnei/.'] Do you mean that it was thought excessive for health 
 generally, or excessive considering they were prisoners undergoing punishment } 
 
 Excessive for their health as prisoners, under all the circumstances of the case ; 
 he found, as he thought, that they were plethoric and full of blood, and suffering 
 from diseases that showed over-feeding. 
 
 3718. Chair7n(i7i.] Is it not, however, the case that the site of Mill bank as a 
 prison is supposed to be unhealthy, and that the ordinary amount of food which 
 would bo satisfactory in any other prison is considered to be below the requisite 
 standard there ? 
 
 Formerly there was reason to believe that Millbank was unhealthy ; but now, I 
 speak from my own intimate knowledge of the prison, and 1 also express the 
 opinion of the resident surgeon, who is a most competent person to form an 
 opinion upon that subject, that that state of things has passed away, and that Mill- 
 bank is no longer an unhealthy site. 
 
 3719. What is the difference between the present diet at Millbank, and the 
 diet as amended by the (Jommittee in 1822? 
 
 The present diet of Millbank is only less by three ounces of food per week than 
 the diet complained of as being excessive, but it is greatly in excess of the reduced 
 diet which brought on the scurvy and dysentery. 
 
 3720. When was the diet raised ? 
 
 After 1823 the diet was raised ; they raised it immediately ; medical men were 
 called in, in consequence of the outbreak of those diseases ; they took the requisite 
 steps for the treatment of those diseases, and then recommended an improved 
 dietary ; which improved dietary, with alterations, which I could point out, has 
 continued in existence up to the present time. 
 
 3721. In your opinion, as founded upon the experience of the medical super- 
 intendent of that day, and the facts which have come to your knowledge since, 
 should you say that the dietary of 1822, previous to any alteration, was in 
 excess ? 
 
 I think it was in excess. 
 
 3722. And the present diet in Millbank, as I understand from your further 
 evidence, falls short of that diet which you believe to have been in excess only by 
 three ounces r 
 
 Only by three ounces per week. 
 
 3723. Ihc diet of Class 4 or Class 5, in the county and borough gaols, cor- 
 responds pretty nearly, does it not, with the diet which is in force now in MjII- 
 bank ? 
 
 The dietary for Class 5 corresponds pretty nearly with it. The quantity of 
 bread and the quantity of potatoes is the same in the two diets. 
 
 3724. Assuming therefore, generally, a correspondence between, the diet of 
 Class 4 and Class 5, in the county prisons, with the diet now given at JNlillbank, 
 
 (37. 12.) X X 3 would
 
 S50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. A. Guy, Esq., •would not the inference from those facts be, that the diet in Classes 4 and 5, 
 ' in the county and borough prisons, is somewhat in excess of that which is 
 28th April 1863. necessary ? 
 I think that a fair inference. 
 
 3725. Earl of RomiicyJ] What are the points of reduction in those three ounces 
 that you spoko of, and in what items r 
 
 The bread in 1822 was larger in quantity than the bread in 1863, at the present 
 date; it was then 168 ounces; it is now 154 ounces of bread in a week. The 
 meat, which was then 24 ounces, is now 35 ounces. The potatoes, which were 
 then 1 12 ounces, are now 1 12 ounces ; so that the difference consists in the reduc- 
 tion of the bread element, and an increase of the meat element, and the dietary 
 at present is therefore somewhat stronger than the dietary of that time. But 
 putting all the solid elements of the diet together, the scale which is now thought 
 necissary fells short of t!;e old dietary which Avas thought excessive by only three 
 ounces. 
 
 3726. The improved quality quite makes up for the deficient three ounces in 
 guantity ? 
 
 Yes, quite so ; so that the present diet is more liberal than that which was then 
 esteemed excessive. 
 
 3727. Cltairman.'] You stated that that dietary, generally and roughly, cor- 
 responded with the dietary of Class 5 in the county and borough prisons; will you 
 be good enough to compare Class 5 with the present Millbank dietary ? 
 
 I will do so in one moment; but perhaps, in the meantime, your Lordships will 
 allow me to state more distinctly than I have already done, that Dr. Baly 
 devoted a great deal of attention to the question of the necessity of the potato 
 eleuieut in the dietary ; and I M'ould venture to state to your Lordships, that there 
 is no fact in relation to diet better established than the necessity of the potato 
 element, or some equivalent vegetable element, exisiing in all diets. Then, before 
 I })roceed to make the comparison wliieh your Lordships desire, perhaps you will 
 allow me further to interpolate two matters of considerable importance, which will 
 make the whole subject of tlie diet of prisons more distinct and clear. The first 
 is some very important evidence which exists, that it is not essential to the health 
 of a prisoner that there should be any meat at all in his diet. In the evidence 
 laid l)efore tlie Commission in 1823, there is a very inq^ortant statement made on 
 the authority of the Governor of Devizes House of Correction. I have quoted 
 the facts at length in the evidence given before the present Royal Commission on 
 Penal Servitude, before which I had occasion to appear: The dietary of the 
 Devizes House of Correction consisted of 196 ounces of bread per week, 112 
 ounces of potatoes, or a pound a day, giving a total of solids of 308 ounces in 
 the week ; and there was only in addition to that, seven pints of gruel ; and yet 
 it resulted from actual weighings, made with great care, that the prisoners under 
 this diet gained in weight very largely ; and the governor states, in the most 
 distinct terms, that the dietary agreed well with the prisoners, and that no loss of 
 strength, was noticed; that no prisoners could be more healthy; and he added, 
 that " there is not now, nor has there been, any case of scurvy;" that was in 
 1823 ; that was the result with regard to prisoners with various sentences, long 
 and short, who were weighed, and found to have gained weight upon that diet. 
 
 3728. Therefore, in your opinion, it would be quite jiossible, would it not, to 
 construct a dietary of a farinaceous and vegetable kind, which should keep up the 
 strength of the prisoners without the introduction of any animal food ? 
 
 Quite possible. 
 
 3729. And it would be ])ossible upon that dietary to impose u])on the prisoners 
 the 8 or 10 hours' work wliicli the Legislature sanctioned in the original Gaol Act ? 
 
 I think so. I have reason to believe that many of the prisoners that were put 
 upon this diet, and thus weighed ami reported upon, must have been doing a good 
 deal of work in the prison; it is not likely that tiiey should all have been idle ; it 
 is not distinctly stated what their employment was, but I have little doubt that 
 many of them were doing a full amount of work. 
 
 3730. The Committee have had it stated in evidence that the two great ele- 
 ments in the composition of diet being a certain proportion of carbon and a certain 
 
 proportion
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 35l 
 
 proportion of nitrogen, it is quite possible, by a combination of tlie constituent W.A.Gvy, Esq., 
 
 parts of the diet, to find a substitute for tliat amount of nitrogen which exists in **. b. 
 
 most of the prison dietaries in the form of meat in such food as miik and cheese, ^Sth A r"l iSG? 
 
 and I thin]-: onions and peas ; is that your opinion also ? 
 
 Ciuite so; there is no doubt upon that point. 
 
 3731. Carrying- tJiat argument one step further, it has also been stated in evi- 
 dence that the imposition of a certain amount of labour is such a vital stimulant 
 added to the system, that it would represent a ceriain pro])()rtion of nitrogen, and, 
 consequently, that a certain proportion of labour might take the place of a certain 
 amount of nitrogen as at present administered in gaols; is that your opinion also? 
 
 The exercise would, of course, tend to the developnunt of the fleshy jiarts of 
 the bodyAvkich abound in nitrogen, and in that way labour might become in some 
 sense a source of nutrition to the body. 
 
 3732. And that, consequently, by a due and scientific combination of nitro- 
 genous food, such as milk and cheese, with the other kinds of food, and by the 
 infliction of a certain amount of hard labour, you might be able to eliminate to a 
 very great extent, if not completely, the element of meat, without weakening the 
 prisoner unduly or impairing his health ? 
 
 I think so. 
 
 37:^3. Are the Committee to understand from these answers that in obtaining 
 this substitute for the nitrogenous element in food by means of hard labour, the 
 result would be due to the greater facility in assimilating the food which would 
 be jiroduccd by the vital stimulant which the hard labour would afford, or that it 
 would be due to the exercise, such as stone-breaking, or some exercise of that 
 sort carried on in the open air ? 
 
 I think that the exercise which a man takes, whether you call it hard labour 
 or any other labour, tends to promote the assimilation of that food which he 
 eats, whatever it may be, and that over and above that, the fleshy parts of the 
 body are more completely built up in the man who labours, be it hard labour or be 
 it less bard labour. But wherever there is hard labour, you must always take care 
 tihat there is abundant food. 
 
 3734. But whether you look at the matter scientifically, or whether you look 
 at it with regard to your own experience in INIillbank, you do believe that a 
 dietary may be constructed upon the farinaceous and vegetable princijile, ca])able of 
 supporting the health of the prisoners under that amount of hard labour which it 
 is reasonable to contemplate as being inflicted in any prison? 
 
 Yes ; of coin-se I mean that tlie food should be projiortioned to the amount of 
 labour wiiicli the prisoner has to do ; but that the labour itself is wholesome, and 
 tends to promote the due assimilation of that food which he does take. 
 
 3735. Earl of Romney.'] You suppose the work to be performed under a healthy- 
 condition of the atmosphere 1 
 
 Yes ; it is better, of course, in the open air than under shelter. 
 
 373§. Chairman.'] Medically speaking, is it not injurious to the health that 
 the prisoners should be shut up for many hours in the day together without any 
 hard labour? 
 
 Yes, 1 think it is injurious to the health. 
 
 3737. Earl Dude.'] Will the want of sufficient labour produce a lower tone of 
 vitality amongst the prisoners ? 
 
 Yes, it certainly does do so in those who are not prisoners ; the vitalitv of a 
 printer or a tailor is not equal to the vitality of the man w ho works out of doors. 
 
 3738. Does that lower amount of vitality prevent them assimilating their food 
 in sufficient measure ? 
 
 ' No doubt it does interfere with the due assimilation of the food. 
 
 3739. Under tliose circumstances, does the prisoner require more food when he 
 assimilates his food badly ? 
 
 I do not think he requires more ; but he will somehow contrive to use up 
 
 more, not wholesomely, or to his own advantage ; but he will often eat more than 
 
 (37. 12.) X X 4 his
 
 352 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 jr. A. Guy, Esq., his neighbour who is doing more wliolesomc work ; I do not think he wants it, 
 '"•''• but he does eat it. 
 
 ?8th April 1863. 3740. It woukl be Uke a bad grate, whicli does not consume the fuel properly, 
 uoidd it not '? 
 Yes. 
 
 3741. Earl Eomnei/.] Very often he takes it to his own injury? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3742. Chairman.] And, consequently, there is a waste of food ? 
 Yes, there is a waste of food. 
 
 3743. It has been stated by some witnesses to tliis Commiitee, that the mere 
 effect of imprisonment upon a man is to involve such an amount of depression as 
 can only be discharged Ijy a great increase of food ; is this a fact which has been 
 at all verified oy medical observatiou ? 
 
 It is not a fact, but an opinion, and it is an opinion which I myself do not 
 entertain ; I think that if you shut men up, and they lead sedentary lives, it is 
 better that they should eat less food than those who are not so shut up, and who 
 work harder. 
 
 3744. And you would apply that to the uneducated class, such as the majority 
 of the prisoners are, as well as to the more educated men ? 
 
 Yes, certainly. 
 
 3745. Is the increase or loss of weight in itself a certain evidence of the increase 
 or loss of physical health ? 
 
 It is not a certain evidence; it is naturally adopted as a test of a sufficient 
 dietary, but it is not a satisfactory test ; it has the advantage of being stated 
 in numbers, and there is a great deal in that, but it cannot be taken by itself. 
 Per]ia])S with regard to the subject of the possibility of establishing a vege- 
 table diet, the Comaiittee might wish that I .should state another fact or two 
 bearing upon that subject. My respected predecessor, Dr. Baly, published a 
 paper hi one of the medical journals, in 1 843, on the prevention of scurvy, in which 
 he expresses himself as follows : " There are many prisons," he says, " in which 
 the diet, from its unvaried character, and the absence of animal food as well as 
 o-reen vegetables, is apparently most inadequate to the maintenance of health, and 
 where, nevertheless, from its containing abundance of potatoes, scurvy is not pro- 
 duced. Stafford county gaol may be taken as an example. In this prison the 
 weekly allowance of food consists of 12i ])ounds of bread, 21 pints of gruel, seven 
 pounds of potatoes, and a sufficient quantity of salt. Neither meat nor soup 
 is tasted by the prisoners, yet scurvy does not occur, I have recently had the 
 opportunity of examining 70 prisoners who had been confined in Stafford gaol 
 for periods varying from three to six months, and I could not find one who pre- 
 sented any trace of scorbutic disease." That would be a second case in point 
 similar to the one which I have already brought forward. Then, to make this part 
 of the subject comidete, I may state, that we have in Millbank a penal class diet 
 from which the element of meat is entirely excluded, and an ill-conducted pri- 
 soner will continue upon that diet for nine or ten or more months, and even as 
 mauv as IS months, and yet enjoy very good health. 
 
 374('). Without any variation of meat ? 
 
 "Without any meat at all ; I must modify that statement so far as to say, that 
 if in that time they happen to fiill ill, which they rarely do, not more than the 
 other class of prisoners, thev would come under medical treatment, and their diet 
 might be improved for a time, and they might perhaps get a little meat. 
 
 3747. Can you give the Committee any table of that penal class diet? 
 
 Y"es, I can ; our penal class diet consists of 84 ounces of bread per week, 70 
 ounces' of Indian meal, 5G of potatoes, 70 of oatmeal, and iOh pints of milk ; those 
 are the elements of it ; there is no meat allowed. 
 
 3748. Are the Committee to understand that upon that dietary prisoners are 
 
 somotiuies confined and fed for 10, 12, and even 18 months, without any injury to 
 
 their health 'i 
 
 Without any noticeable injury to their health. 
 
 3749. Would
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 353 
 
 3749. "\A"oulfl there be any objection, in your opinion, practically to adopting TT. A. Guy, Esq., 
 
 such a dietary as that for i)ri<oner:s sentenced to one year's imprisonment in the "'• ^' 
 
 county and borougli prisons ? ' „8th k^\ ,863. 
 
 I think none. 
 
 37.10. Are the men who fall under this penal class diet worked upon any hard 
 labour ? 
 
 ■ No ; on the contrary, they are '^liut up in their cells as part of their punishment, 
 and are not ])ut to any labour except picking coir. Occasionally, however, wiien 
 they are taking their hour's exercise, they are i)ut upon the pump for 20 minutes 
 or so. 
 
 3751. Supposing you had tlie labour of tlie treadwlieel, or the crank, or shot 
 drill, or picking oakum, for those prisoners who are confined ujjon this penal class 
 diet, "ould you consider it to be sufficient ? 
 
 I think so. 
 
 3752. ^Vould you see any objection to a man being worked for eight hours upon 
 the trcadwheel on that dietary, subject to the ordinary relief of one-third of each 
 hour: 
 
 I see no objection to that, 
 
 3"53- I" ^^ct, the Committee ^^•ould gather from that statement that, in vour 
 opinion, meat is not at all an essential element in the dietaiy of prisoners, even for 
 sentences as long as 18 rnonths or two years ? 
 
 I must speak a little doubtfully upon this point, because I have no direct 
 experience to guide me, but 1 should say that it would be quite possible to confine 
 prisoners for such a period, and give them the labour to do which is usually 
 called hard labour, and yet that they would retain their health with that diet ; but 
 I have not sufficient facts to guide me, and I must state that only as an opinion. 
 
 3754. Do you state that as an opinion only up to 12 months, or do you state 
 that as a fact which is known to your experience ? 
 
 I sh uld think it quite possible to go beyond 12 months, but I should be sorry to 
 hazard a strong opinion extending beyond that. 
 
 37.55. Lord Li/veden.'] Has it no effect upon their spirits, producing a reaction 
 upon their health ? 
 
 I think none at all. Those men who are put upon the penal class diet are very 
 troublesome men, and men who cannot be said ever to be in low spirits; they are 
 even ingenious! v troublesome. 
 
 »" 
 
 3756. Then you do not think that it deteriorates the; tone of their mind r 
 ,1 do not think it does. 
 
 37.t7. Earl oi Ducic] Do the prisoners, on first coming into the prison, find the 
 jirison diet so difierent from that, which they use in ordinary life that it has any 
 effect upon them ? 
 
 None Avhatever ; they often ask for more bread, but it is simply Ijccause they 
 must ask for something, and they are anxious to be making some request to the 
 medical officer. 
 
 37.58. Does being de))rived of the alcoholic stimulants which they are accus- 
 tomed to, have any eff'ect upon them ? 
 
 Not perceptibly. Cases of defirivm tremens produced by the disuse of alcoholic 
 stimulants are very rare with us indeed. I have seen but one or two cases in four 
 years. I have not seen a case noAv for upAvards of two years. 
 
 37.59. Is it your impression that the health of the prisoners is lietter on your 
 present prison diet than it is ordinarily out of doors? 
 
 I cannot, measure the health of the prisoriers against the health of the same 
 class out of doors with any accuracy ; bui I can measure the mortality. 
 
 3760. But does their condition improve generally in prison ? 
 
 Their condition, 1 should say, does improve in ]irison, that is the impression on 
 my mind ; and when 1 have weighed them, they having the ordinary prison diet 
 which I mentioned first, 1 have found tliem, on tlie whole, disposed to gain Mcight, 
 both those that arc em])loycd upon tlie harder labour of mat-making, and tliose 
 that are emphiyed ujion the lighter labour of tailoiing; they both "gain weight 
 under our ])resent dietary. Prisoners in the penal class, both men and women, 
 also retain their weight on the penal class diet of which I have just sjioken. 
 
 (37. 12.) V Y 3761. Have
 
 354 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. A. Guy, Esq., 3761 . Have you ever met with cases wliere the lowest grade of prison diet has 
 
 '"• ^' had a bad effect upon the prisoners ? 
 
 28th jVpriT iSe-i ^"^' lo^'est diet consists of bread and water. It is continued for three days, or 
 
 ' sometimes longer. This bread and water diet is a special punishment diet, which 
 
 cannot be continued with safety very long w"ith men and women M"ho are already 
 prisoners. I think it could not be continued above a fortnight or three weeks, 
 without some eti'ect being produced upon the health ; but then, it must be 
 remembered, that they are otherwise under punishment. 
 
 3762. You state that they do thrive upon the penal diet ? 
 
 Yes, they thrive upon it, and they preier it to the monotonous ordinary diet of 
 the prison, in which there are five ounces of boiled beef weighed after cooking, with 
 the broth of the meat, every day, without exception ; they prefer the penal class 
 diet to that ; and although the penal claas diet, as the name implies, was intended 
 to be a punishment, 1 know that it is not a punishment ; they get a very good 
 mess of oatmeal and milk in the morning, and of Indian corn meal and milk at 
 dinner. 
 
 3763. ("an tlie use of Indian corn meal be introduced to a greater extent than 
 it is at present ? 
 
 It is a very wholesome meal, and it may be used more largely than it is at 
 present. 
 
 3764. Are you acquainted with the dietary of the military prisons ? 
 
 The military prisons have, I think, no meat in their diet, except on the 
 Sunday, in the case of prisoners in the first class. I do not say that froju my 
 OAvn knowledge of military prisons, but I gather it from the report of 1857. I 
 believe Inoian meal to be a very wiiolesonie article of diet ; it contains more nitro- 
 o-en than wheaten Hour does, and it abounds in oil. 
 
 3765. It is more economical, is it not, than any other form of meal ? 
 
 Yes ; I believe it is the most economical meal we have ; oatmeal possibly may 
 be as economical ; and it has more nitrogen than wheaten flour. At the present 
 time the prices of Indian meal and oatmeal are exactly the same in Millbank. 
 
 3766. Does it produce any diseases at all ? 
 None that I am aware of. 
 
 3767. Earl of Romnei/.] You stated a short time ago tliat you could measure 
 the mortality of the prisoners against the mortality of persons out of doors ; what 
 is the result of that ? 
 
 Tiie result of that is that the male prisoners are more healthy than the inhabi- 
 tants of those districts where they are likely to be found in London ; their mor- 
 tality is mere favourable than that of the corresponding class out of doors. The 
 mortality of the women is a little less favourable, but not much. 
 
 3768. Lord IFodchoiise.'] I do not understand you to recommend this farina- 
 ceous diet upon the ground that it is more distasteful to the prisoners, but because 
 it is more economical, and more healthy ? 
 
 Quite so ; it is equally healthy. I do not say that meat is unhealthy, but this 
 farinaceous diet is quite healthy, 
 
 3709. The principal advantage would be its economy, would it not? 
 Yes, its principal advantage would be its economy. 1 do not know that tliere 
 would be any other advantage. 
 
 ^,770. Lord Lyveden.l Its being distasteful to the prisoners is an advantage, is 
 it not ? 
 
 That depends upon the way in which you regard tlie punishment, whether the 
 intention is to be always punishing a prisoner through his diet. 
 
 3771. Lord Wcnski/dale.'] Did I correctly understand you to state that the 
 prisoners like this penal diet better than the ordinary diet in which meat is intro- 
 duced ? 
 
 They like it better than the ordinary prison diet. The ordinary prison diet is 
 very monotonous ; five ounces of boiled beef every day is very monotonous. 
 
 3772. Chairman.] I understand that they like it, not because they wish to give 
 the preference to vegetable food over animal food, but because in the penal class 
 diet there is a greater variety than there is in the ordinary dietary ? 
 
 There is not a greater variety, but I think it is less distasteful. The same meat 
 
 day
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 355 
 
 day bv day is more distasteful than the same weiglit of potatoes, porridge, and ^f-'- A. Ouy, Esq., 
 Indian meal ])U(lding day liy day. w-n- 
 
 3773. Are there medical reasons against making the diet monotonous ? 28th April 1863. 
 r think that tijcre are reasons medically against making it so monotonous as 
 
 our diet is. We find that the l)est prisoners, and those that least complain, after 
 a time lose their appetite, and they have a distaste for their food after some weeks 
 or months of tliat monotonous diet day by day, and they ask to be put off their 
 meat. I do not mean the worst class of prisoners, but those who are not given to 
 complaining. And we do put them off for a little while ; we give them rice puddino- 
 for a i'ew days, and then we put them back again. That is frequently occurrino-. 
 
 3774. The absence of hard labour would probably have a tendency to increase 
 that sense of monotony, would it not? 
 
 It would have a tendency to increase that monotony; you add the oreater 
 monotony of mind to the monotony of diet, 
 
 3775- Therefore, in that point of view, the loss of hard labour would be me- 
 dically an evil ? 
 
 Yes, it would be medically an evil ; but at the same time we get a good deal of 
 hard work done in the prison. 
 
 3776. Lord Wodthoiise.'] Do you think tliat it would be desirable to alter the 
 diet after a certain period in all cases ; say after two or three months ?- 
 
 I should not alter the diet so soon as that. 
 
 3777. How soon should you think it desirable, as a general rule, to change the 
 diet, assuming the prisoners to remain in health? 
 
 I do not think ihat there is any necessity for the change at all, if they are in 
 health ; they may go on for months, or even years, together, with the same diet, 
 if they continue in health. 
 
 3778. You do not think, therefore, that there would be any necessity for par- 
 ticular classes of diet, being what may be called better diet, as the prisoner 
 remains longer in prison ? 
 
 I am doubtful upon that point. I know that it is the general opinion of medical 
 men ; and that it was the opinion of my predecessor, Dr. Baly, for which I have 
 a great respect, that it is the tendency of confinement to lower the tone and vigour 
 of the prisoner, so that he wants more food. I am not satisfied upon that point, 
 but it must be a matter of opinion ; it is not ascertainable by any experiments 
 that I can make. 
 
 3779. Chatrmau.'] In 1856, I find that the diet in the military prisons was di- 
 vided into two classes ; the ordinary diet included, for breakfast, S ounces oi oatmeal, 
 and for dinner 9 ounces of Indian meal, and for supper 8 ounces of bread, with half 
 a pint of milk to each meal. That was for periods of confinement below 84 days; 
 and after 84 days tjie prisoners had for breakfast 10 ounces of oatmeal instead of 
 eight, 12 ounces of Indian meal instead of nine, 8 ounces of bread (the same,) and 
 half a pint of milk ; would that, in your opinion, speaking generally, be a suffi 
 cient diet ? 
 
 It would be sufficient, I think, in quantity, but then it lacks the potato 
 element ;■ the ])otato element should be in it. 
 
 3780. With the addition of the potato element you would not be afraid of such 
 a diet ? 
 
 I should not. 
 
 3781. I find that the diet which existed in 1856 has been altered in 1861, in 
 the following manner. The ordinary diet for prisoners confined for less than 56 
 days' confinement, instead of 84 days, which was the original term, is as follows : — 
 Breakfast, eight ounces of oatmeal and half a jiint of milk ; dinner, nine ounces of 
 Indian meal and half a pint of milk ; supper, eight ounces of bread and half a pint 
 of milk. Ihat would corresjiond i)retty nearly with the ordinary first class diet 
 which I j)ieviously read out under the old scale, vvith this exception, that it is for 
 a shorter period. The second class has been materially altered. On four days of 
 the week, 10 ounces of oatmeal for breakfast, 12 ounces of Indian meal for dinner, 
 ei^iht ounces of bread for supper, with half a pint of milk to each meal ; but on 
 the three other days of the week, ^^unday, Tuesday, and Thursday, at breakfast 
 eight ounces of oatmeal and half a pint of milk ; at dinner, eight ounces of beef, 
 ■without bone, before cooking ; two pounds of potatoes, or eigh't ounces of bread ; 
 
 (37. 12.) Y Y 2 one
 
 356 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. A. Guy, Esq , one pint of soup, thickened with one ounce of oatmeal and two cunces of vege- 
 
 ^^•^- tables jier man, seasoned with pepper and salt; and at supper, eight ounces of 
 
 28ih Aoril ifie-? hread, and half a pint of milk. In your opinion, docs that seem to be a desirable 
 
 change r 
 
 I think that the quantities are rather large ; it seems to me to be an excessive 
 diet, if I follow your Lordship's reading of it correctly. 
 
 37S2. Is not the eight ounces of beef, with the pint of soup, which, of course, 
 contains a certain portion of meat, a very large allowance of animal food to give at 
 any one time ? 
 
 I think it is. 
 
 3783. Would you consider that the former diet was sufficient, without the addi- 
 tion of those eight ounces of beef and the pint of soup ? 
 
 I should think it sufficient, but I sliould require tlial there should be some of the 
 potato element in it. 
 
 37 S4. Assuming always that the vegetable element was introduced? 
 Yes, I think so. 
 
 3785. You stated in the earlier part of your evidence that experiments had 
 been made under your observation at Millbank ; would you be good enough to 
 inform the Committee what was the nature of those experiments of yours ? 
 
 I took 25 men, who were mat-making, which is the hardest labour that the men 
 have to do in tiicir cells at Millbank, and I took 25 who were employed as tailors; 
 they both lived in the same way, and had the same ordinary diet. The result of 
 the experiments thus made, by repeated Aveighings, week by week, was tiiat, 
 although there were some strange differences and strange anomalies in the weights 
 week by week, the general result, in both cases, was an increase of weight, the 
 tailors ffaininff more than tlie mat-makers did. But there was no regular order as 
 to gaining and losing ; the mat-makers, for instance, might gain one week, and 
 the tailors might lose that same week, and the mat-makers might lose the next 
 week, and the tailors might gain ; showing that these weighing experiments, 
 although they are valuable, are not conclusive, and that it would be necessary, in 
 order to get conclusive experiments, to repeat theui very frequently, and to get at 
 the causes of those variations from week to week. 
 
 3786. What would be the number of the experiments which you would desire to 
 institute in order to come to some satisfactory basis upon which a scientific prison 
 diet could be constructed ? 
 
 I could answer that question more satisftctorily if the Committee will allow me to 
 refer to the Pentonville experiments. When Pentonville was first opened, experi- 
 ments were made under a committee consisting of Sir Benjamin Brodie, Dr. Fer- 
 guson and Dr. Owen Rees, all of them eminent and highly competent persons. 
 They made three preliminary experiments, in which they found that a great number 
 of prisoners lost weight, and then they made a fourth experiment, in which they 
 gave these articles of diet. They gave 112 ounces of bread per week (which would 
 be IG ounces or 1 pound per day), 28 ounces of meat, 1 1 2 ounces of potatoes, 3^ pints 
 of soup, 7 iiints of gruel, 51 pints of cocoa, 14 ounces of milk and 1 .1 ouncesof mo- 
 lasses. Those are the elements of the diet as given by them ; arid they found that, 
 under this diet, 33 in 100 remained stationary, and neither gained nor lost weight; 
 that 45 in 100 gained weight ; that 22 in 100 lost weight ; and they found that 
 those who gained, gained more than those who lost; in the proportion of 1-55 
 to 1 50: the diffennce is very slight; however, those vvho gained, gained rather 
 more than those Mho lost lost. I think tliat had I been making that experiment 
 myself 1 should have been satisfied with this result, because I should not have 
 expected, under any diet, that then- should not have been a certain number who 
 would lose weight. JSucli is the result of my recent experience in weighing pri- 
 soners at INIillbank. However, the experimenters did not take that view of the 
 matter, and then they proceeded to another experiment; they added on 4 oz. of 
 bread per diem, or 28 oz. per week, leaving all the other elements of the diet the 
 same as before ; and then they found tliat 25 per cent, remained stationary (ratlicr 
 fewer than in the other experiment), 59 percent, gained, being more than in the 
 previous experiment, and 1 6 per cent, lost ; those who gained, gained I '84 lbs., and 
 those who lost, losi 1 "58 llis ; thus, again, those who gained, gained more than those 
 ■who lost lost; and with that experiment they were satisfied. I feel obliged to 
 state here, as I did before the Royal Commission, that I am not satisfied with 
 
 the
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 357 
 
 the issue of those experiments ; I am not certain that the first \veighing in ^vhich IV. A. Guy, Esq., 
 the allowance of bread was 16 ounces per diem was not satisfactory, I should have ^" ^• 
 
 thought it so myself, but having added on four ounces of bread per diem, sSih April 1863. 
 
 or 28 ounces per week, and getting results so little more favourable than the 
 
 former ones, I certainly should have deemed it necessary to experiment with quan- 
 tities between the 10 ounces and the 20 ounces. This seems to me to be the 
 defect in tliose experiments; and I mention it because great stress has been laid 
 upon them, and they have been thought more conclusive than they seem to my 
 mind to be. 
 
 3787. Is not the class from which the larger proportion of prisoners are taken 
 a very depraved class morally, and a very weakly class physicall}', and would it 
 not consequently be very difficult to feed those men up to sucii a point as that 
 they would gain in weight rather than remain stationary ? 
 
 I think that we need not take into account their moral or physical state, because 
 the same result I think m ould happen with ])eople out of doors ; taking the 
 average of people out of doors, a similar result would happen. In all weighings 
 under all diets, some would be losing, and some would be gaining; but if you got 
 such a result as was obtained in the fourth experiment at Pentonville, you would 
 probably feel satisfied with it ; and therefore I wish to express my opinion to the 
 Committee that there is good ground fir causing experiments to be made with one 
 pound of bread per diem, and one pound of potatoes per diem, as a starting i)oint, 
 varying the quantities of meat, of soup, and of gruel ; and I would suggest that in 
 such experiments the l)rcad should be brown bread, as it is more nutritions, and 
 more economical. But whether tiie bread be white or brown, exptriments are 
 required which should take as their basis one pound of bread per diem, and one 
 pound of potatoes per diem, and should vary the other elements of diet until a 
 satisfactory result Avere obtained. 
 
 3788. Earl of Romney.'\ Why would you prefer brown bread? 
 
 The only bread used in prisons should, I think, be brown bread, partly because 
 it is more nutritious, and contains more of the muscle-making element in it (the 
 nitrogen which has been spoken of) than white bread does ; and another reason 
 is that if it were desired, the prisoners could grind iheir own flour, and the bread 
 could be made within the prison, as is now frequently the case. 
 
 3789. Chairman.^ Is there any objection to using all that there is in the 
 wheat ? 
 
 I think not ; but that must be a matter of experiment. If it were found that 
 by continuing the brown bread for a long time diarrhoea was occasioned, it 
 might become necessary to substitute white bread on certain days of the week, 
 but brown bread should be used as much as possible ; I know that there are 
 prisons in which they use it, and 1 do not hear that the prisoners suffer from 
 diarrhoea ; that is the only thing to be feared. 
 
 3790. \A'e have already had it in evidence that the white bread is the most 
 nutritious ; you are probably not of that opinion ? 
 
 I think that that is not quite correct. I think I can explain how it happens 
 that you have had that in evidence. If we take the grain as it is, and grind it 
 into flour, we get a certain quantity of the outer husk of the grain, which is 
 perhaps not very nutritious, and that makes a coarser bran ; then after that, you 
 come to a yellow substance which is a part of the solid grain, and which contains 
 a great quantity of nitrogen, more than the white inner portion does ; and if you 
 separate the outer portion which is not nutritious, and leave the other, you get 
 far more nutritious flour than you would if you took only the inner white portion. 
 The reason why the inner white portion is taken, and the outer yellow portion 
 rejected, is partly that in the ordinary mode of making bread by fermentation, 
 all but the very best qualities of flour change colour, through that outer portion 
 getting discoloured. Under the new system of making the aerated bread, no 
 discolouration takes place even with the worst kinds of floiir; and therefore, if it 
 were necessary, that system might be adopted. 
 
 3791. Lord Wodchouse.'] Is there not, in fact, very great diff'erence of opinion 
 amongst |)ersons, whose authority is good, as to which is the most nutritious, white 
 or brown bread ? 
 
 I do not think there would be any difference of opinion, if it were put in the 
 ^,37. 12.) Y y 3 way
 
 358 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 JV. A. Guy, Esq., way ill -which I now put it ; if you were to decorticate the wheat (to use a 
 ^^' ""' technical term), and take off the outer husk entirely, and leave tlie compact 
 28th April 1863. inner grain, antl grind up the whole of that qrain, the yellow outer ])ortion and 
 the white inner portion, you would find that that taken' altogether is more nutri- 
 tious than if you rejected the yellow portion, and took the wiiite inner portion 
 only. I think that will ex])lain the ?ource of the difterence. 
 
 3792. Earl of Dudley.'] That would be so, except for the discolouration, wdiich 
 in the old system of making bread always was the result ? 
 Yes, and is the result now, as bread is commonly made. 
 
 379.3- How much falling off in the weight should vou say that a prisoner is* 
 capable of, before any damage was done to ids health ? 
 
 Takint^ the ubole body of prisoners together, I should not like to see in 
 them any material falling oti' in weight. I should be walchful as a medical 
 man, if 1 saw that there \\as any material falling off in weight — say tuo pounds or 
 three pounds a man — but I should be A'ery glad to see some of them lose a great 
 deal of weight ; they would be all the healthier for it. Manv men come into 
 prison who have led idle and reckless lives, and have eaten and drunk more than 
 was good for them, and who have got stouter than they should be, and such men 
 are better for being brought down several ])ounds ; but taking one with another, 
 I should not like that there should be anv ffreat fallinii' oti" in vveisht. 
 
 .,'0 n o 
 
 3794. In the course of a sentence of a year, should you say that a falling off of 
 a stone would be at all likely to afTect them injuriously .^ 
 ^ es, one with another, certainly. 
 
 379.5. Some prisoners are capable of it, and may be reduced with advantage; 
 but taking one with another, a prisoner falling oti" at the rate of one pound per 
 month, would suffer in health? 
 
 I think so. 
 
 3796. Chairman.'] With regard to the question which has just been asked you 
 respecting the suijcriority of brown bread over white, the following evidence has 
 been given to the Committee by a witness who has been examined before them: 
 In answer to question 998, he states, " 1 think it essential for prison diet that it 
 should be white bread ; or if not wliite bread, it should be of bran ground 
 finely. .My reason for this is, that it is shown that the bran of brown bread, as 
 the husk of oatmeal, and the shells of peas, hasten the nutritive material through 
 the liowels ; Ave therefore have a larger waste of food if we give the bran with the 
 bread, and the liusk with the oatmeal, and the shells with the peas, than we 
 should have without them." Would your experience enable you to confirm that 
 statement .' 
 
 Yes, I should agree with that statement. If whole meal bread were found to 
 produce diarrhoea, I should ex|)ect it to prove less nutritrious. 
 
 37 ()7. Then the following question is: "Then the prejudice which prevails 
 amongst the agricultural community, that the finest white bread is the best for 
 them, and the most nutritive, is correct r "' To which lie replies, "Certainly it is 
 correct ; brown bread is the rich man's dietary, and not the jKior man's dietary ; " 
 do you agree with that .'' 
 
 1 (hj nut agree with that view of it ; I think brown bread is especially ihe poor 
 man's dietary, and not the rieh man's. I should reverse that answer ; of course 
 one would be very sorry to disagree with any medical opinion, but we are allowed 
 to diller, aiid 1 think wo could justify our diirerenees if it were necessary. 
 
 371)8. In your opinion, is it possible, Avith the medical knowledge which exists, 
 and the experiments which have been already made, to construct a scale of dietary 
 winch would be satisfiictory and safe for adoption, or do you l)elieve that there are 
 points which still require to be considered before any final measure could be 
 adopted ? 
 
 I think that we now' possess sufiicient knowledge to enable us to combine the 
 elements of a good diet; but without e.xjieriuient we do not possess sufficient 
 knowledge to be able to say what the minimum quantity of thosd elements slionld be. 
 
 3799. It has been given in evidence by a previous witness, who agrees with you, 
 that there are still some points which require to be determined authoritatively 
 before a diet could be established u])oii a satisfiictory basis, and the jjoints which, 
 in the opinion of that witness, it was necessary so to determine were these. He 
 
 states
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 359 
 
 states in answer to question 914, " We vrant to determine precisely the effect" (by ^. A. Guy, Esq., 
 precisely, of course, the witness meant scientififally) " of meat, whether meat is "•"• 
 
 uecessar}' in any quantity, and in what quantity it is necessary. Then, whether .28th April 1863. 
 
 fat, which is a dearer food than starch, with which it is analogous in composition, 
 
 can be supplanted by starch, or in what proportion it must bo given. Then we 
 must also know what is the precise effect upon the system of those various punish- 
 ments which are to be recomiucndid ; and having first of all decided upon those 
 punishments of a definite kind, we must then know what would be the amount of 
 food necessary to meet that i)articuiar case. So that we have a large series of points 
 about whicli we are at present ignorant, and which are absolutely necessary to be 
 understood before we can form a new scheme of dietary, but all of which informa^ 
 tion can be obtained by proper experiments in prison." Would your opinion go 
 along with that view r 
 
 I think I may ansMer that, in a scientific point of view, it would be desirable 
 to have such experiments made ; but I do not think them necessary in a practical 
 point of view, ^\'e do not want to ascertain those points with such minute 
 precision as the term scientific would imply ; we can get at them roughly. I 
 repeat that I should myself like to see the basis that I have mentioned adopted, 
 namely, one pound of bread per d:iy, and one pound of potatoes (that is what was 
 given in the fourth experiment at Pentouville), because the potato element is so 
 essential to a sound dietary, and then varying tlie quantities of other things. I 
 should be satisiied with making these expt-riments in tiie case of prisoners variously 
 employed within our own prison, some w'ith hard work, some with a little harder 
 work, and some few could be found with no work at all, or such very light work 
 as is almost tantamount to no work, for instance, picking coir, which is very light 
 work ; but I do not think it is necessary to make these expeiiments in so scien- 
 tific a manner as is laid down in that evidence. 
 
 3i>oo. And would you leave the determination to the judgment and the 
 experience of the different medical officers in the different prisons 'i 
 
 I would not do that ; if 1 could have my choice in a matter of that sort, I 
 should say, put your experiments into the hands of some one man ; if a committee 
 were formed, the comnnttee would beconne as one man if it were of any value at 
 all : as a general rule, it is never of more value than tlie best man in ir, and 
 especially if it is to conduct experiments. It is better to select some one man in 
 ■whom you can placp confidence, if there be such a person, and get him to make 
 the experiments required in some one prison, and then having made those 
 experiments with great care, to extend their results to other prisons. 
 
 3801. I think the Committee understand that your view is, that though it is 
 not absolutely necessary, in a practical point of view, that the point should be 
 determined Avith scientific [)recision and minuteness, still that it would be very 
 desirable to go into those different questions, with a view to obtaining an ulti- 
 mate finality, so to speak, to the dietary basis, whatever it may be, wdiich may 
 be hereafter adopted ? 
 
 It would be desirable to make such experiments. 
 
 3802. In the meanwhile, as a jjrovisional measure, would you be satisfied with 
 a dietary constructed upon the vegetable and farinaceous principle, such as you 
 recommended to the Committee a short time since r 
 
 Yes, I should be satisfied with that. 
 
 3803. Earl of Rcmneyl] In the event of potatoes failing, are split peas a good 
 substitute? 
 
 No ; split peas would not be a good substitute ; cabbages would answer the 
 purpose, or any other green vegetable ; rice would not answer, nor peas ; it is 
 the potherb class which you want when the potato fails ; but the best substitute 
 that we could find would be, if oranges were cheap, some fruit of that kind. 
 The potato contains a vegetable acid, either the acid of lemons or tartaric 
 acid, it is not quite made out which ; there is some little difference of opinion 
 as to what the precise acid is, but it is a vegetable acid in combination with 
 potash ; whenever that is wholly absent from the food, scurvy will break out, 
 whatever the dietary may be otherwise ; and whenever that is supplied, scuivy 
 will be cured, if it is supplied in sufficient quantity; that is one of the facts 
 which we have best ascertained. I may mention that, in my opinion, the reason 
 of the dreadful mortality which attended the pestilences of former times was two- 
 
 (37. 12.) Y Y 4 fold :
 
 360 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 i 
 
 W.A.Gay,Esq., old: first, there Avas the want of a suffident quantity of vegetables, not of 
 M. i;. potatoes merely, but of vegetables generally, in the dietary of the population. 
 
 28tli iTiTiSC':! '^^'*^ population were many of them in a condition of scurvy, or verging upon it, 
 '"' • " siii(^ whenever the pestilence came, it was a pestilence supervening on the scurvy ; • 
 the pestilence laid hold of scorbutic people, and that was one reason of the terrible' 
 loss of life which took place in the pestilences of former times. I do not think that 
 the severity of those pestilences can be accounted for. merely by the closeness in 
 which ]ieople lived. I think it is necessary to assume also a want of that vegetable 
 element in their diet. 
 
 3084. Lord WodeJiouse.] Do you think that cocoa is a desirable article of prison 
 diet ? 
 
 Cocoa is a very good article of diet, and contains a good deal of that oily 
 element which, if we could manage it, should always exist in food ; it is better 
 that there should be some oily element in food, and cocoa supplies that ; it contains 
 a good deal of oil in every part of it. 
 
 3805. Looking upon cocoa as rather a luxury, do you think it would be 
 necessary to include it in prison diet r 
 
 Not necessary, certainly. 
 
 3806. Do you think that the same remark would apply to molasses, which is 
 mixed with the cocoa ? 
 
 I do not think that either is essential to prison diet. 
 
 3807. Chairman.'] In the same way treacle, which takes a prominent place in 
 some diets, in your opinion, would be unnecessary ? 
 
 It is a very good article of diet, but it is not necessary. 
 
 3808. Do you happen to be aware whether the dietaries in the different county 
 and borough prisons are very discrepant with regard to each other? 
 
 Very much so indeed. 
 
 38o(). Can you give the Committee any information upon that point ? 
 
 Yes. I think I can give the Committee some means of tracing the history of 
 those dietaries. I think it likely that the Millbank dietary of some years since, 
 was the model u])on which the recommendatidus issued to the county and borough 
 prisons were based. I find that as the Millbank dietary gives 22 ounces of bread 
 per diem, or 154 ounces'per week, so also does the dietary. No. 5, which is given in 
 cases of hard labour for periods exceeding four months ; and the distribution of 
 the 22 ounces between breakfast, supper, and dinner is the same. The Millbank 
 dietary gives 7 pounds of potatoes, and the recommended dietary does the same ; so 
 that it seems likely that those recommendations for Class 5 were based in some 
 shape or other upon the dietary then in use at jNIillbank. Now the 22 ounces of 
 bread at Millbank exceed by 2 ounces the 20 ounces at Pentonville, which 20 ounces 
 were given as the result of the experiments to which I have alluded. Dr. Baly, 
 my predecessor, when asked whether the Millbank dietary might be reduced in 
 the element of biead to the hjwer scale of Pentonville, answered, that he thought 
 not, because Millbank was unhealthy. So that in allowing 22 ounces of bread in 
 Class 5 of the county and borough prisons, the example of Millbank was followed, 
 which had the 22 ounces and retained them, merely because it was unhealthy. 
 
 3810. Therefore, the Government scale of dietary for the county and borough 
 prisons, which might be sujiposed to be healthy, and to be under the ordinary 
 circumstances of gaols and houses of correction, is framed upon an exceptional 
 scale, namely, that of Millbank? 
 
 Yes, I think it is. That is the view which T have been induced to take. 
 
 3811. Lord ffudc/iomc] Does that remark apply to the whole scale of diet, 
 or only to one jiarticular class ? 
 
 Only to (.'lass 5. 
 
 3812. Chairman.] ^'ou have gone through and analysed, have you not, the 
 different dietaries, as given in the return to the House of Commons iu 1857? 
 
 Yes, I have. 
 
 3813. Can you state to the Committee any results from that analysis? 
 
 f find that tiic dietary for (!lass 5 is as I have stated : 22 ounces of bread 
 per diem, IG ounces of potatoes, and 16 ounces of meat. At Millbank they 
 have 3.5 ounces of meat. That class has also 1 1 pints of gruel, three of cocoa, 
 
 and
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 361 
 
 and three of soup. Fonaerly, ]jrior to 1854, we had soup on two days at Mill- W. A. Guy, Esq.. 
 bank ; but Dr. Baly, when the cholera came, thougiit it expedient to strike off "• ^■ 
 
 tlie soup and to put on the meat, five ounces every day. When the special ^gth a ril i8v^ 
 necessity for that chana-e i)assed awav, the meat was still retained; no alteration 
 ever took place afterwards. Now, the earlier diet at Millbauk was a better diet 
 and a cheaper diet, and it approximated to this diet of Class 5. 
 
 3814. Lord Wodchoiise.'] Does the adoption of that dietary imply tliat the 
 county gaols have adopted li^e ounces of meat instead of soup ? 
 
 No. because at the time when those instructions were issued ]\Iilll)ank itself hud 
 soup twice a week, and not the five ounces of meat every day. 
 
 3815. Then they adopted the dietary as it stood before Dr. Baly's altera- 
 tion ? 
 
 Yes, the two diets were very nearly the same at that time. 
 
 3810. Cliairman.'] Therefore a change which was essentially temporary in its 
 natui'e has been converted into a permanent one ? 
 
 Yes. The women in this Sth Class have 18 ounces of bread per dav ; one ounce 
 less of meat on four days, and half a pound less of potatoes on each of those 
 four days also, and the other elements are the same as with the men. I iind 
 on looking through this Return that 42 of the borough and county prisons 
 have adopted the recommendations of the Home Office, in regard to this diet 
 table for Class 5, and I could give the Committee some curious illustrations of 
 the anomalies existing in the other ]:)risons. What I am about to state is 
 similar to what I have already stated before the Royal Commission ; as it bore 
 upon the subject of diet generally it was introduced into the evidence there 
 given. If we take the element of bread, those dietaries are found to vary 
 from the minimum of 30 ounces per week to the maximum of 224 ounces, 
 exhibiting all sorts of figures, 30, 36, 68, and so on. 
 
 3817. Karl of Dudh'i).'] What is the prison where they give 224 ounces of 
 bread ? 
 
 Huntingdon ; that is 2 pounds per day. 
 
 3818. Lord Wodehonsc.'] Would that be to prisoners in the same class, or in 
 a different class ? 
 
 All the same class ; I am always speaking of Class 5, and of no other at 
 present. One large group, which includes Newgate, shows 168 ounces of bread 
 per week. The Middlesex prisons and the Wakefield jDrisons show 140 ounces. 
 
 3819. Earl oi Dudley.] But do we not find that there is a set-ofi" to that 
 minimum ? 
 
 It is not always a full compensation. If we take the element of meat, it is 
 found to vary from no meat at all, through 6 ounces, 8 ounces, 12 ounces, 18 
 ounces, and such numbers up to 25 ounces in a week. If we take the element 
 of potatoes, it varies from 24 ounces, the least quantity in any prison, through 
 32 ounces, 56 ounces, and other numbers upto 112 ounces ; that is one pound 
 per day. The total of the solid elements of bread, meat, and potatoes, tiken 
 together, varies from a minimum of 100 ounces to a maximum of 340. But it 
 should be understood that where the total quantity of solid elements is smallest, 
 the dietary is sometimes, and indeed generally, improved by the addition of 
 oatmeal and milk, with which they make milk porridge, or by Indian meal, or 
 suet juidding ; I have only compared together the same elements in all cases. 
 
 3820. Lord fFodchonse.l Y'^our statement goes to prove the extraordinary 
 variation of food in the quantity and nature of the dietaries, rather than to give 
 an opinion as to the value of the dietaries r 
 
 Yes, to show how little they have followed the instructions of the Home 
 Office. 
 
 3S21. Earl of Dudlcii^ Must not that always be the case so long as thsre is 
 a surgeon at the head of the establishment, and who is absolute in the matt-r? 
 
 The surgeon is never absolute, I think. Great attention is always paid to the 
 opinion of the surgeon upon dietary matters, and he is supposed to be the best 
 authority, but I should not have thought him quite absolute in such a matter 
 as the general scale of dietary. 
 
 3822. The question was asked of a witness before the Committee, whether 
 (37. 12.) Z z the
 
 362 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. A. Gill/, Esq., the governor of a gaol, with tlie consent of the visiting magistrates, could not 
 M. B. reduce the scale of labour to anything he liked, and whether the surgeon of 
 
 — T „. a gaol could not raise the dietary to anything he liked, and the answer was 
 2 1 pri 1 3. Yps^ ill both cases ; do you concur in that opinion ? 
 
 I think the witness must have meant that the surgeon might, in an individual 
 case, |)ut a prisoner upon any diet he jdeased, but I do not think that he could 
 raise the whole scale without consultation with the authorities of the prison. 
 
 3823. The question meant this ; whether, if the siu-geon took a humane view 
 of the thing, he could not raise the scale of diet to an indulgent scale ? 
 
 If a surgeon were to represent by a report to the prison authorities that he 
 thought tlie diet insufficient, I liave no doubt that his opinion would carry 
 great weight with it, and would, probably, be attended to ; but I should think 
 that nothing short of a deliberate report on his part would lead to that result ; 
 it must be a deliberate, carefully drawn up, report. 
 
 3S24. Lord Wode/iousc] Is it not the case that when once a dietary is fixed, 
 which no doubt would be fixed after taking the advice of the surgeon, the only 
 power which the surgeon possesses is either generally to represent to the 
 magistrates that the diet is insufficient, with a view to a general change, or to 
 order that any prisoner should have extra diet, on the ground of ill-health ? 
 
 Just so. 
 
 382,=). But the surgeon could not, on his own opinion, alter the whole scale 
 of diet ? 
 
 Certainly not. 
 
 3826. Chairman.'] Are the Committee to underst;md, from one of your recent 
 answers, that in the total of solids which you have calculated as l)eing in the 
 minimum 100 ounces, and in the maximum o-lO ounces, suet pudding is not 
 included ? 
 
 It is not included. I should rather have said the solids that I had previously 
 given, namely, bread, meat and potatoes. 
 
 3827. You would not exclude suet pudding as being a sohd, would you ? 
 No, certainly not. 
 
 3828. Looking at this very great variation in diet which you have described 
 to the Committee, are you of opinion that as it is certain that it must be very 
 iniurious in a penal point of view, so it is probable that this variation may be 
 injurious also in a medical point of view ? 
 
 I can scarcely suppose that diets so various should all of them be rigid ; but 
 various diets, as every one knows, may suit the average of persons who are put 
 upon them. 
 
 3829. From your experience of prison life, would you not say that it would 
 be a great advantage to secure uniformity of diet in the dift'erent prisons ? 
 
 1 think it would be very important to establish uniformity of diet, and only 
 the day before yesterday I heard from a magistrate, a visitor of one of our 
 county prisons, that it was believed tliat prisoners were coming across from the 
 county of Sussex to the county of Kent, and committing crimes in that county 
 because they behoved that if they got into prison they would be better treated 
 in the county of Kent. 
 
 3830. An objection has been raised by some of the witnesses to uniformity 
 of diet on this ground, that the population of England varies very much in its 
 hai)its and in its'general diet, and tliat what would be sufficient for one section of 
 the population in the South would not perhaps be enough for the corresponding 
 section in the North, or West, or East ; but is it your opinion that you could 
 construct, speaking hroadly and generally, such a dietary as might be ai)plied 
 uniformly with safety and satisfactory results to the general population of 
 England ? 
 
 i think so. I think that such a dietary might be constructed, and you might 
 
 • lay down certain essential elements, say bread and potatoes, leaving other 
 
 things as alternatives ; for instance, either meat, or if it were preferred, Indian 
 
 meat pudding ; placing .side by side the alternatives of the other things, but 
 
 laviua; down as necessary bread and potatoes, and the quantity of them. 
 
 3831. You
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 363 
 
 3831. You propose therefore to leave a diseretion to the local authorities to JF. A. Guy, Esq., 
 adopt within certain limits a scale of dietary which in other respects would be '"•''■ 
 
 uniform? 28th A TiSfi'* 
 
 Yes. I think that that might be permitted with advantage, because the ^" 
 
 habits of the inhabitants of dijfferent parts of the country in the matter of diet 
 vary so much, that it would be well perhaps to allow a certain variation in 
 certain parts of the diet. 
 
 3832. Might it not also be possible to allow for the difFerences either in 
 excess or in deticiency between the different parts of the country, and to frame 
 your dietary so that no discretion beyond, that of the surgeon, in case of extra 
 diet, should be left to the local authorities r 
 
 I think that that would be quite possible. 
 
 3833. And you would not apprehend any injurious effects to the prisoners, 
 or fear that the ditt should be insufficient for the hard labour, which it is 
 to be supjiosed should be performed uniformly in all gaols ? 
 
 No, 1 should not. 
 
 3834. Earl of Dudlei/.] Do }'ou include meat as one of the necessaries ? 
 
 No ; not as a necessary, but as an alternative ; the only necessaries that 
 I should define would be bread and potatoes. 
 
 3835. Chairman.~\ Does the treadwheel exist, or has it existed within your 
 recollection at Millbank ? 
 
 We have a treadwheel, but we do not use it, and it has never been used 
 within my recollection. 
 
 3836. Have you a crank, and is the crank used? 
 Yes, the crank is used for pumping water .^ 
 
 3837. Is it a crank with one continuous shaft ? , 
 Yes. 
 
 31^38. Does it form a part of the manual labour in the prison, or is it merely 
 employed for the express purpose of raising water for the prison ? 
 
 It is employed for the express purpose of i-aising water, and all the prisoners 
 who are not exempted upon medical grounds are put upon it ; even the women 
 do their share at the pump. 
 
 3839. Do you, upon medical grounds, after your experience of it, see any 
 objection to the use of such a crank r 
 
 No, certainly not ; quite the contrary. 
 
 3840. Is there, in your opinion, anything prejudicial to the health of the 
 prisoners in the use of it ? 
 
 Nothing at all. 
 
 3841. Do you believe that it conveys a sense of degradation or of irritation 
 to the minds of the prisoners who are so employed upon it ? 
 
 No sense of degradation, certainly ; no sense even of monotony ; it is felt to 
 be a change for the short time that they are upon it ; it is a punishment only 
 to those prisoners who would gladly escape from any labour at all. 
 
 3842. Earl of Dudley.'] And therefore it is the better element of punishment ? 
 Yes. 
 
 3843. CItairmaii.] But that monotony would exist equally in the case of 
 picking oakum, would it not : 
 
 Yes, and therefore it is not Hked ; picking oakum is a very unpopular labour. 
 
 3844. Have you any knowledge of the use of the treadwheel ? 
 I have had no experience of it at all. 
 
 384.';- You are not prepared to say whether, medically, you consider it 
 injurious or not ? 
 
 I should say that it is not medically injurious. 
 
 3846. Do you believe that there is any serious appprehension of prejudicial 
 effects to the health of the prisoner if the ordinary examination be made by the 
 surgeon previous to a man being put upon the wheel ? 
 
 Certainly not. 
 (37. 12.) z z 2 3847- Are
 
 3G4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 , A. Guy, Esq., 3847. Are you at all conversant with the use of shot drill ? 
 
 M. B. I have only heard of it ; I may have seen soldiers so employed, but 1 do not 
 
 know anything of it. 
 
 28th April i8f)3. 
 
 384S. ^Vould you, on medical grounds, entertain any apprehension of the 
 result of the shot drill, provided that in the same way the prisoner was sub- 
 jected to medical examination ? 
 
 Certainly not. In the case of ruptured men, or if it was thought that it 
 would be too great a strain upon the muscles, then, of course, a man would not 
 be put upon it ; 1 am assuming medical examination in all cases. 
 
 3849. With regard to the shot drill, it has been su<igestcd by one of the 
 witnesses that the shot should be placed upon raised pedestals, so as to involve 
 rather less exertion than stooping ; would not that, in a medical point of view, 
 obviate to a great extent the I'isk of rupture? 
 
 I think that that would obviate any jjossible objection. 
 
 3850. In some prisons, as perhaps you are aware, where hard labour does 
 not exist either by the treadwheel or the crank, exercise in yards h:!S been 
 made the substitute for it ; in your opinion is such exercise equivalent to the 
 infliction of hard labour ? 
 
 No ; certainly not. 
 
 3851. But, on the other hand, where they have no labour by means of the 
 treadwheel or crank, is it not, in a medical point of view, necessary to give 
 some exercise to the prisoners by taking them into the yards for exercise } 
 
 Most assuredly it is. 
 
 3852. Would that, from your long experience of prison matters, be to the 
 prisoners who exercise in those yards a punishment at all eciuivalent to the 
 punishment which they would undergo at the treadwheel or the crank ? 
 
 Certainly not. 
 
 3853. Are you acquainted with what is technically termed the hard labour 
 cellular cranks? 
 
 ]\o, I have no experience of them. 
 
 3854. Earl of Dudley.'] Do 30U not believe that a man performing what is 
 able to be given him now in prison as hard labour, which, generally speaking, 
 is mat-making, would live well and be healthy upon no better diet than that 
 which is the ordinary diet of the labourer out of doors ? 
 
 I have no doubt that he would be in perfect health upon such food as a 
 labourer out of doors gets. 
 
 38.55. 1 ask you this question; of course a man out of doors is almost 
 entirely ignorant of the best meat, of plain mutton, and still more of plain 
 beef, and he knows nothing of cocoa, molasses, and things of that sort ? 
 
 Yes, just so ; the diet that a prisoner gets is as good a diet as a labourer 
 gets, with the exception always of those labourers who receive the best wages, 
 and who have the advantage of resident landlords ; in such cases I think where 
 the parishes are small they do live better than the prisoners in prison ; I say 
 that as the result of a recent inquiry. 
 
 3856. Over the country generally ? 
 
 I can only speak of one instance in which I thought it right to make some 
 careful enc[uiries in a short visit which I have just made to Cambridgeshire. 
 I went through the houses of the village, and ascertained exactly what the 
 labourers bought in the shape of flour (which was easily converted into its 
 equivalent in bread), in the shape of nicit, in the shn])e of potatoes, and in the 
 shape of butter, lard, and dripping, and I took down the results ; and in that 
 village, which is very i'avouiabiy circumstanced for that jjart of the country, 
 the average (piautitv of food which the men and woment got, taking the solid 
 elements, which are with them almost the only ones they get, the quantity of 
 food per week is about 19 pounds to about 15 pounds consumed by the same 
 number of adult male, together with the same number of adidt female, pri- 
 soners. The labouring men and women get about four pounds more than the 
 prisoners in Millbank, or than the prisoners in Class 5 of the county and 
 borough gaols ; liut then that is a very favourable case. My impression is, 
 tliat tlie well-off lahoun r in the country gets, on the whole, more food than the 
 prisoner hi prison ; that is to say, in all our prisons except the convict esta- 
 blishments
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 365 
 
 blishments of Portland, Dartmoor, Portsmouth, and Chatham. He gets more iv. A. Guy, Esq., 
 as a labourer than he would get in Millbank on ordinary diet, and more than m. b. 
 
 he would get in class 5 in county and borough prisons. „., , ~ ^^ 
 
 ° ,01 28th April 1863. 
 
 3857. If you were to state the average of all the diets that are given 
 
 throughout the country, varying as you have shown them to do, we should 
 find that the prisoner is kept very much above the average of the labourer, 
 should we not ? 
 
 That is my impression, but I have no facts to guide me, 
 
 38,58. There is, of course, a very large diff. rence between 30 and 240 ? 
 Yes; but then that 30 which 1 have given you, is only the one element of 
 bread ; th e other elements have to be added to that. 
 
 3859. But bread is the staple, is it not ? 
 
 Yes. In the ])articular case that I have referred to, a group of labourers' 
 famihes, consisting of 21 adult males, 21 adult females, and 26 children, con- 
 sumed, on the average, upwards of nine pounds of bread per week ; rather less 
 than a pound of meat in the whole week (by meat, I mean bacon chiefly, and 
 pork ; I do not mean fresh meat, which they very rarely taste, even in this well- 
 conditioned A'illage), less than six pounds of potatoes, and less than onethird cf 
 a pound of butter, lard, and dripping. 
 
 3860. Lord Wudehouse.^ Have you reckoned nothing for vegetables, other 
 than potatoes : 
 
 It is chiefly potatoes ; they very rarely get anything else ; ver\' rarely greens. 
 
 38(3 1 . Earl of Dudley. ~\ May we add any tea to that ? 
 
 I have not ascertained that, because it would be very difficult to measure ; 
 it does not amount to much in any case. 
 
 3862. Do they drink beer? 
 
 That they do not often get ; in harvest time they get beer, but at other times 
 I do not think they get much ; they may have a little, perhaps, oc(jasionally. 
 
 3863. As a rule they do not drink beer every day ? 
 No. 
 
 38(14. But taking this, which you say is a favourable diet in a particular 
 village, is riot that which is given throughout the prisons in the length and 
 breadth of the land very much greater ? 
 
 No, it is less. 
 
 381I5. But we find cocoa, milk, and molasses given in prison, and we find 
 actually mutton and beef given to men not invalided ? 
 
 Yes ; but the quantity of bread is considerably larger in the case of the agri- 
 cultui'al labourer, and that counterbalances the extra meat which is given in 
 prison. If the labourer gets a pound of salt meat, the prisoner gets perhaps 
 24 ounces of fresh meat in the course of the week, but the labourer would get 
 very much more bread. 
 
 3866. Therefore bread may be considered as a substitute for the meat which 
 is now given in prison ? 
 Y'es. 
 
 38(17. Lord Wodchouse.~\ The result of your experience would show that 
 there is rather an exaggerated opinion as to tlie superiority of prison diet over 
 the diet of our orelinary agricultural labourers ? 
 
 Yes, I think there is an exaggerated opinion upon that subject. My own 
 impression is, that the well-conditioned labourer gets rather more than the 
 prisoner, but that the mass of the labourers throughout the country would 
 get less. 
 
 3868. What is the ordinary rate of wages in that village in Cambridgeshire to 
 which you have referred? 
 
 Twelve shillings a week, a little above the rate in the surrounding districts ; 
 it is a very favourably-circumstanced village for that part of England ; the 
 proprietor is resident, and there is great kindness shown to the labourei-s, so 
 that, though poor, they are never in destitution. 
 
 3869. Earl of Romney,'] It has been recommended by some of the witnesses, 
 that at the beginning of a long sentence the diet should be low, and it should 
 
 (37- 12.) z z 3 keep
 
 366 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. A. Gay, Esq , l<eep ou rising at various periods during tliat sentence ; do you believe that to 
 
 M- B. be a good plan ? 
 
 o , / T,86q ^" general terms I should agree with that view, that it is expedient to improve 
 
 ' ' ' the diet in the case of those prisoners who remain longest in prison. 
 
 3870. You do not think that any evil result would be likely to arise from 
 having first lowered the tone of the prisoner, and afterwards increasing the 
 food, when the power to digest was taken away ? 
 
 No, not unless the change from one stage to the other were very abrupt ; 
 unless you added on a great deal at each time, and made great changes in the 
 stages of diet. 
 
 3571. Chmrmnn.'] Adopting for the moment the scale as recommended by 
 the Home Otlice, would you be prepared to make a prisoner who was sentenced 
 to six months' imprisonment pass through the several stages till he had ari'ived 
 at the 5th class ? 
 
 I certainly should ; I think that it would be both a simple and a desirable 
 procedure to place every prisoner whose sentence is less than a week, and up 
 to a week, and all other prisouers, at least for one week, upon bread and 
 water ; but in tlie case of sentences exceeding a week and falling short of three 
 weeks, I think that I should make an addition of potatoes at the dinner ; then, 
 in the case of sentences exceeding three weeks and falling short of six weeks, 
 I shoidd make a very slight addition, such as gruel for breakfast and supper, 
 or meat once a week. 1 should not make a great addition for such a short 
 period ; and then, for sentences above six weeks and short of four months, it 
 might be desirable to give them, in addition to bread and potatoes, perhaps 
 porridge twice a week, Indian meal pudding twice a week, soup twice a week, 
 possit)lv, and possibly meat once a week, on the Sunday. I speak of this as a 
 mere outline of what might be arranged. And then, lastly, for those whose 
 sentences exceed four months, I should make some very slight and unimportant 
 addition to that scale. 
 
 3572. But you would not be in favour of admitting six months' sentenced 
 prisoners to the full diet of the 5th class at once, without passing through the 
 jjreliminary stages ? 
 
 Certainly not. 
 
 3873. Lord TVodeJiouse.] Is the answer which you have just given consistent 
 with your statement, that yon think that soup and meat are not necessary in 
 pi'ison dietary 1 
 
 I am not speaking of what is absolutely necessary in what 1 have just said, 
 but what I think desirable, though not necessary. After a time the prisoner 
 must have something more than bread and water. 
 
 3874. Is anything desirable in prison which is not necessary in the way of 
 diet ? 
 
 It is difficidt to answer that question, because it is difficult to say what little 
 may be really necessary ; very little might be absolutely necessary, and yet 
 you would not like to give only that little ; you would give something more. 
 
 3875. Eari of Dudley.'] To make your answer to the question of the noble 
 Lord in the chair quite clear, would you say that every prisoner sentenced to a 
 long term of imprisonment should be carried through the gradual increase of 
 diet from the lowest up to the highest? 
 
 I think he should. 
 
 387^. And you think that that could be done with safety to health ? 
 I think so. 
 
 3877. And that it would be also a good system of punishment ? 
 
 I think so ; because in the case of prisoners who misconduct themselves 
 they might be put back upon the earlier diets. 
 
 3878. Chmrmaii.] Is there not, under the present system, this anomaly, that 
 you inflict the shortest possible diet, which is the severest punishment which 
 exists in many gaols, upon a prisoner who has committed a most venial offence, 
 and that you give the fullest possible diet, which is the object of ambition to 
 the majority of prisoners in the gaol, and for which, on their own avowal, some 
 offences are committed, to a man who had been guilty of very great outrages ? 
 
 With
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON" DISCIPLINE. 30/ 
 
 With regard to venial offences, I may be allowed to say that I do not think W. A. Guy, Esq., 
 the crimes for whieh men are condemned for short sentences are always to be ^'•'*- 
 
 considered venial offences. I take the serious crime of bee:2;in"- as an example. q.. . T-tT. 
 
 tj. • • 1 J 1 1 1 • • . T 1 1 11 /- 2otn April 10113. 
 
 It IS punished now by seven days nnprisonment. 1 know, and could state facts to 
 
 show, that a mendicant is always, or ahnost always, at the same time, a thief ; that 
 
 the two occupations go together ; that the man begs when he must and steals when 
 
 he can ; and even in the case of men who have committed the greatest offences, 
 
 and wlio are in Millbank prison, even that class of men are both beggars and 
 
 great culprits in other ways. Therefore, the man who commits the offence of 
 
 begging, if he gets seven days, deserves also to have the low diet upon whicli 
 
 he is put ; and when you go on from that to sentences for longer periods, if a 
 
 man passes through a week and goes on to a further term, there are other 
 
 reasons for increasing his diet than the question of the gravity of his offence. 
 
 :^879. Chairman.] Putting aside, therefore, the offence itself, have you not 
 this anomaly, that you punish with the severest diet a short-sentenced man, and 
 you punish with the lightest diet a long-sentenced man ? 
 
 My answer to that is, that the offence of a short- sentenced man deserves 
 bread and water for a week, and a long-sentenced man will pass through the 
 bread-and- water stage for a week, according to my own theory of what is right. 
 
 3880. But under the existing system, is it not the case that j'ou punish with 
 the lightest sentence, with regard to diet, the long- sentenced men, who do not 
 pass through those earlier stages, and that you punish with the sharpest diet 
 the men who are short- sentenced prisoners.- 
 
 That is so. 
 
 38S1. Earl oi Bomrin/.'] Are you accjuainted with the diets of Class 1 and 
 Class 2 in the Regulations ? 
 Yes. 
 
 3882. Is not what you have been recommending as a scale to be found in 
 those dietaries ? 
 
 It is somewhat similar to those dietaries ; but I would not even give oatmeal 
 gruel for a week. 
 
 3883. Your scale would be rather lower than this ? 
 Yes. 
 
 3SS4. Those classes have been designated to the Committee by one of the 
 witnesses as starvation ; do you concur in that .' 
 
 1 do not think so ; 1 should not agree with any witness who said that bread 
 and water for a week was starvation ; that is an exaggeration, I think. 
 
 3885. Chairvuni.'] In your opinion, is a reduction of diet a satisfactory mode 
 of punishment for prison offences ? 
 
 It is not to my mind a satisfactory punishment ; it is a punishment which 
 goes on too long ; it has the disadvantage of going on day after day, and such 
 punishments tease and worry and fret the prisoner, and give trouble to those 
 who have to take care of hiia ; therefore, they are not to be compared, for 
 humanity or for efficiency, to flogging, and wherever flogging can be inti'oduced 
 as a punishment, it is a better kind of punishment than any dietarj'^ punishment 
 that 1 know of. 
 
 3886. You would consequently view it as a most merciful punishment? 
 Yes, it is the most merciful punishment that I have any knowledge of. 
 
 3':- 87. Have you from your experience found it to be a most effective punish- 
 ment ? 
 
 A very effective punishment indeed, in the majority of cases. 
 
 388S. Lord JVodehonse.'] Are there not a great number of light prison offences 
 which it would be impossible to punish by flogging, and which you can only 
 punish by a reduction of the dietary ? 
 
 Yes ; there are some such cases ; but at the same time, flogging, although a 
 merciful punishment, is one of those punishments which should not be inflicted 
 very frequently, because it would then in some degree lose its efficacy. 
 
 3880. Are not the large majority of prison offences such offences as it would 
 (37. 12.) z z 4 be
 
 368 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 IV. A. Guy, Esq., be impossil)le to punish by flogging', and though it would be very desii-able to 
 ^'^' retain flogging for serious off"ences, it would be impossible to substitute flogging 
 
 ■i8th April 1S63. ^*^^* reduction of diet for the more slight offences? 
 
 . The oft'ences committed in the convict prisons are not often slight offences. 
 
 In my experience in Millbank prison they would be most frequently serious 
 offences, such as threatening the oflicers, striking the officers, destroying 
 clothes, smashing windows ; those are the offences which are now punished 
 too frequently, as I think, by dietary punishments, and too rarely by flogging. 
 
 3890. Earl of Dudley.'] You admit, do you not, the efficiency of a change of 
 diet, and that a prisoner fears it ? 
 
 1 do not think it is very often effective ; I think it frets them a good deal ; 
 it is a punishment, but it is not a good kind of punishment. 
 
 389!. You stated, did you not, that recourse might be had in case of 
 necessity, to l)ringing the prisoners back again to the lower scale of diet ? 
 
 Yes, in the case of a prisoner who committed an offence that might be 
 deserving of a moderate flogging only ; and taking a case in v\hich flogging had 
 failed, then such a punishment might be resorted to ; but supposing- the offence 
 was not quite serious enough to deserve a flogging, then a dietary punishment 
 might be resorted to, and in a large number of cases you have nothing else 
 that you can inflict. 
 
 389-^. Do you not think that the one point which men of that sort, men of 
 an animal mind, look to, is the amount of food which they would have to eat? 
 
 They look to thitt, but I do not tliink they care much about it ; when they 
 have got their sentence passed, and have got three days' bread and water, they 
 do not care very much about it, for three days. 
 
 3893. My question had reference rather to the longer sentences? 
 
 I can only say this, that sometimes when they have been put back to the 
 penal class (liet, which was framed for the purpose of punishing them, they have 
 seemed to like it better than the ordinary diet. 
 
 3S94. Chairmuii.'] What is the present number of lashes which are given in 
 the event of flogging being inflicted ? 
 
 In Millbank formerl}', and of course the same was the case in the convict 
 prisons generally, four dozen lashes could be given ; but a recent order has 
 been issued limiting the number of lashes in the case of men, to two 
 dozen, which I think is too small a number ; you ought to have the power of 
 inflicting four dozen in terrorem, although it would not be necessary often to 
 inflict them. 
 
 389,5. Might it not in some cases be much more merciful and much more 
 effective to administer a flogging of four dozen lashes than two oi- three punish- 
 ments of two dozen ? 
 
 It might sometimes ; and yet no one who has to allot the number of lashes 
 could fail to take into account the nature of the offence, and he could not give 
 four dozen lashes for every case; he must vary it. if the question is put in 
 that way, it vi'ould be better sometimes to give four dozen than, to repeat two 
 dozen over again. 
 
 389^. Is it desirable, in fact, to hmit so closely the discretion of the governor 
 or the visiting justices with regard to the number of lashes to be given ? 
 
 T think it is not only inexpedient, but positively wrong to do so ; if a soldier 
 or a sailor can receive four dozen lashes, a prisoner, who is as hearty a man, 
 and as capable of bearing them, and a worse man, should certainly in common 
 justice receive as much. 
 
 3897. From whom did that order issue ? 
 It came from the Home Office. 
 
 3898. "Was it made applicable to county and borough gaols ? 
 I have no information upon that point. 
 
 38q9. In your opinion, is the punishment of the dark cell useful ? 
 My experience of the dark cell is, that we find both men and women 
 going to the dark cell over and over again ; the women will often commit 
 
 oft'ences
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 369 
 
 offences in order that they may go there; they have a certain morbid ^- A. Gvy,Esq,, 
 pleasure in beine; in the dark cell, and as the cells are side by side, and they "• ^■ 
 
 can hear each other shouting and singing and cursing. They take a kind of ogth ATrTTiSe? 
 pleasure in being there, and I do not think that the dark cells are of any ser- ' 
 vice to the majority of prisoners who are sent there. 
 
 3900. In your opinion, would shot drill be a useful punishment for men for 
 prison offences ? 
 
 1 do not myself think that those are good punishments which have no 
 puqjose except to punish. If the labour could be devoted to some useful 
 purpose I should prefer it very much. 
 
 3901. Some witnesses have recommended that, either as a disciplinary stage, 
 or as a punishment, guard beds should be used ; in a medical point of view 
 would you have any objection to that r 
 
 There is not the shghtest objection to the use of guard beds for a short time. 
 
 3902. Are you not of opinion that, as a general rule, whatever might be the 
 offence of a prisoner, and whatever the punishment, that punishment should 
 follow as close as possible upon the commission of the offence r 
 
 I think that it certainly should do so ; but there is this difficulty in carrying 
 the rule into effect, that the director, in the cases of Government prisons 
 in and about London, only attends once a week ; in Millbank he attends once 
 a week for the men, and once a week for the women, and the cases must be 
 reserved for his consideration till the day comes round ; and as he has other 
 prisons to attend to, he could not be summoned easily upon an emergency by 
 the governor. 
 
 3903. It has been stated by a witness before this Committee that when a 
 prisoner happens to be physically strong, and to have considei'able courage and 
 moral determination, it may constantly hai',pen that he may with impunity 
 disobey the orders of the gaoler ; is that, in your opinion, a state of things 
 which is satisfactory, or which ought to be allowed under any circumstances ? 
 
 I think that under no circumstances whatever should a prisoner be able 
 to set the discipline of the prison at defiance ; power should be given to 
 those who administer the affairs of prisons to counteract in the most humane 
 manner every insubordinate act of a prisoner ; they have not that power at 
 present, and it is very nmch to be regretted that they do not possess it. 
 
 3904. What sort of power do you allude to r 
 
 I will take the case of a woman, because the treatment of women, is 
 more difficult than that of men. They cannot be flogged. She breaks out ; she 
 begins by tearing her clothes off her back, and stands before you as naked as 
 she was born. Her next step is to break her windows, and then to shout and 
 make all the disturbance she can. Of course you must adopt some means of 
 covering her, and you put upon her that which she cannot tear, namely, a 
 canvass jacket ; still she is in her cell ; she lies on her back, and she drums 
 upon the door of her cell, disturbing everybody about her ; and the more 
 painful it is to others to listen to the disturbance the more agreeable it is 
 to her. The great evil of this system has been very frequently pointed out ; 
 and I myself suggested only the other day that it should be understood that 
 when women make this disturbance, they sliall have placed upon them what are 
 technically called the hobbles, consisting simply of a padded leather strap round 
 the ankles, and that fastened by a strap to the belt, supposing the woman to 
 have a jacket on, which has a belt going round the loins. The effect of that is, 
 of course, that the legs cannot be" fully extended ; she is placed upon her side, 
 and she cannot kick any longer. I am informed that this is illegal, and there- 
 fore in that case we cannot remedy the evil ; that is an example of the diffi- 
 culty which is experienced. Tl:ere should be a power of counteracting, without 
 cruelty, every act of a prisoner by which discipline is destroyed, or the peace 
 of the prison disturbed ; but there is no power of doing that at present. 
 
 390.';. Therefore, you would give the power to the authorities of the prison, 
 or to the medical officer, to inflict that sort of punishment which would naturally 
 seem contingent upon and appropriate to the offence coiii milted ? 
 
 ISot to the medical officer ; I hold that the medical officer should never inflict 
 punishnunt ; he is not a properly discipline officer, but he should so perform 
 his IVuictious as to promote the discipline of the prison. He ought not to 
 
 (Z7. 12.) 3 A interfere
 
 370 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. A. Gtiy,Esq., interfere with it, but he ou2,ht never to. inflict punishment. I venture to sug- 
 
 M-B- gest that the right view to take of the functions of a medical man is, tliat he 
 
 , T~~^ oc should have the power of restraint, not of punishment, in case of a prisoner 
 
 '^'^ doing that which greatly disturbs the other prisoners, or the officers of the 
 
 establishment. 
 
 390". Is solitary confinement one of th« punishments to which you have 
 recourse ? 
 
 In our prison discipline solitary confinement is used in the first stage, and 
 also with the penal class ; those prisoners who are in the penal class are in a 
 more severe solitary confinement, and upon a special diet too. 
 
 390". By solitary confinement, are the Committee to understand that no 
 communication of any sort or kind takes iilace, except that which is absolutely 
 necessary on the part of the warder and the prisoner ? 
 
 That is the solitary confinement which takes place -with us in the penal class. 
 In the case of the other prisoners, every Sunday twice, and evei-y other day 
 once, the prisoner is in chapel side by side with the other prisoners ; he is also 
 at school once a week ; and he takes his exercise with other prisoners ; and 
 therefore he is not absolutely solitary ; it is separation, but not solitaiy 
 confinement. Those under punishment for the worst prison offences ai'e kept 
 more strictly separate, and even take their exercise by themselves. 
 
 3908. To what extent, in your opinion, medically speaking, could solitary 
 confinement be carried ? 
 
 Thai is an extremely difficult question. If it were really solitary confine- 
 ment I do not know that 1 could answer it, 
 
 ■3909. I mean solitary confinement as modified by the existing arrangements 
 in iMillbank Prison? 
 
 The confinement is in separate cells, and is so far solitary. But the jn-i- 
 soners communicate a good deal with the officers, and they take their 
 exercise, and go round the exercisingground one after the other, so that they 
 see the other prisoners ; and there are many acts in the course of the day 
 which bring tliem into the presence of the others ; so that it is not absolute 
 solitude. 
 
 3910. Is it safe to infer that the distinction between solitary and separate 
 confinement amounts to this, — that in solitary confinement they have rather 
 fewer opportunities of communication with other people ? 
 
 That would be the distinction. 
 
 3QI1. Assuming that solitary confinement means that which you have 
 described, what is the extent to which, in your opinion, jou could, with safet}--, 
 carry it .' 
 
 I think that the solitary confinement we have at Millbank, such as I have 
 described it, may be carried on with safety for one year. Our system of 
 separate confinement does not appear to affect the mind injuriously. I do not 
 mean to say that a prisoner who comes into prison upon the verge of unsound- 
 ness of mind, might not develope into full unsoundness in that time, partly 
 because of the separation ; but I am of opinion also, that a prisoner siiould 
 expect that that may happen to him, and that the possibility of unsoundness 
 must be taken into account as one of the results of his being in prison at 
 all ; and that the possil)le falling into illness should be taken into account 
 as the possible result of his being in prison at all ; so also if he does those 
 things which bring illness upon him, such illness being in no case the fault of 
 those who have to deal with him, he ought to sutler for his own acts, and Me 
 should not be required to prevent him from making himself ill. It is not 
 reasonable to expect that; but it is now expected of us. 
 
 3912. Is there any other suggestion which yon would wish to make to the 
 Committee ? 
 
 I have prepared a further statement, which might be rather important, in refer- 
 ence to the county gaols, with regard to the diet of class 1 ; i)risoners sentenced 
 to less than one week. It is the class in which they prescribe bread and gruel 
 only. I thought it might be interesting to know, that 58 prisons conform to the 
 suggestions of the Home Office, and that the other prisons give very various quan- 
 tities of bread ; for instance, 112 ounces, 12G ounces, 140 ounces, 168 ounces, 
 
 224 ounces.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 37I 
 
 224 ounces, and 280 ounces. In the gaol at Hertford they give 168 ounces of W. A. Guy, Es^., 
 
 bread, and also gruel and soiij); and in i^enibroke, for all classes of prisoners, '*'• ^• 
 
 without exception, they give 2^ pounds of bread per diem. The amount of bread 28th \^] 186'? 
 
 varies in tlie different gaols from 1 1 2 ounces in the week to 280 ounces ; so that ' ' ^^ ' 
 
 there is thy same variety in that as there is in the other elements. I should be 
 
 glad also to state, that the recommendations sent to the county gaols and prisons 
 
 are extremely anomalous, in many points of view : that they do not seem to 
 
 recognise any fixed relation between the quantity to be given to a man and to 
 
 a woman. With regard to class 3, which is for sentences of more than 21 days 
 
 and less than six weeks, with hard labour, the women who lia,ve more than 
 
 21 days and less than six weeks' imprisonment have 196 ounces of solid food ; but 
 
 when they come to have a longer term, more than six weeks and less than four 
 
 montlis, they have only 17O ounces, and all that they get in return, as a 
 
 counterbalance to that, is a single pint of soup extra per week, and an exchange 
 
 of six ounces of meat for two pounds of potatoes. Again, wliile in class 1 a 
 
 woman has as much bread for dinner as a man, in class 2 she has just half as 
 
 much ; and while in class 3 she has for dinner six ounces of bread iu place of 
 
 eight, in class 4 the same difference is made for every meal. In class 5 she has 
 
 six ounces of bread for eight ounces at breakfast and supper, but the same 
 
 quantity at dinner, while the allowance of meat is reduced from four ounces to 
 
 three, and of potatoes from a pound to half-a-pound. So that there is a great 
 
 anomaly in this very table. This table, in my judgment, requires to be very 
 
 careful!)' considered and amended. 
 
 3913. You would desire, in fact, to see a uniformity of diet for all prisons in 
 England, whether county or borough, and you would desire to see that table 
 made compulsory upon them ? 
 
 I should like to see it made compulsory upon them ; but, as I stated before, 
 I should like to have certain elements in the diet fixed and compulsory, but to 
 leave a latitude in certain other elements, those being mainly alternative ; for 
 instance, the element of meat, with the alternative of vegetable substances, 
 containing similar supporting qualities. 
 
 3914. On the other hand, the Committee understand you also to say, that 
 meat is not essential, and that you might find an equal amount of nutriment in 
 other substitutes for meat r 
 
 I certainly think so. 
 
 3915. Karl oi Rofnnei/.] At the same tinie you are in favour of having a 
 dietary established as a basis, subject to variations to some extent, to meet the 
 varieties of particular localities ? 
 
 Yes ; varying with the price of food or the particular habits of the district in 
 which the gaol might be situate. These, I think, might fairly be taken into 
 account. 
 
 3916. Earl of .Z)wfl'/e(/.] Except iu cases of ilhiess, you would also limit the 
 discretionary additions to the diet ? 
 
 Yes ; I should allow no change to be made in the diet, except upon the 
 written report of the medical man to the visiting justices. I should require 
 that, and I think also some reference to a central authority, over and above 
 that, if it were possible. At all events, the medical man should not be able to 
 make any change, except in individual cases, unless upon a very careful report 
 of the reasons which induced him to recommend the change. 
 
 391 7. If j'ou settled the basis of what should be the diet, namely, the amount 
 of bread and potatoes given, and a discretion is allowed with regard to the 
 addition of meat, accoi'ding to local views, it may be a very large diet or a 
 comparatively small one ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3918. In one word, uniformity disappears from the opening of that door? 
 No, I intended to have said this, that with regard to all the elements, other 
 
 than bread and jio'atoes, there should be an alternative element of diet, meat, 
 f'er instance, or Indian meal, and that the quantity of the alternative dements 
 should be prescribed ; they might give either so much meat or so much 
 Indian meal, leaving it to them to determine which. 
 
 3910. Lorci Steward.] Provided the food contained a certain quantity of 
 nutriment ? 
 
 (37. 12.) 3 A 2 That
 
 372 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 IV. A. Ginj, Esq., That being of course assumed. There is only one other point which I 
 M. B. think very essential in the matter of discipline. I was just asked a question 
 
 — r with regard to the necessity of punishment following quickly upon the commis- 
 
 28tli Apn 1863. gjp^j j)f jj^p offence. There is a great want of punishments which I ventured to 
 term, in my evidence before tlie Royal Commission, Contiiigettt Piuiishmcnts. 
 I think it very important that it should be possible to say to a prisoner, " If you 
 do a certain act you shall have an immediate certain consequence," and the 
 director and visiting justices should have the power of saying that. I have 
 seen such excellent results happen in more than one case, from causing that 
 plan to be ado])ted in Millbank, that I should strongly urge that as a power 
 which ought to be given ; so that not only should a man be had up at the end 
 of a week, perhaps, after he has committed his offence, to be adjudicated upon 
 by the director, in the case of convict prisons, or l)y the visiting justices, in 
 the case of the county and borough gaols, but that the director or visiting 
 justices should be able to say to the man, " You are in the habit of doing or 
 omitting to do certain things. You refuse, for instance, to go out to exercise. 
 Well, if you do not go out to exercise when you are required to do so, as 
 often as you refuse you shall lose your dinner." 
 
 3920. Chairman.'] Are you not aware that the governor of a gaol has very 
 much the power which you have described ? 
 
 But that does not quite meet the case ; I mean that a man should be dis- 
 tinctly given to understand that, when he commits offences which he is in the 
 habit of committing, it is not necessary that he should be brought before the 
 governor, or the director, for adjudication, but when he commits the offence the 
 punishment should follow; 
 
 3921. In borough and county gaols the governor is actually on the spot, and 
 therefore he coidd be in that man's cell in five minutes after the commission of 
 the offence ? 
 
 Yes ; but that does not quite meet the case which I speak of ; what I mean 
 is, that if the man refuses to go out to exercise, he should lose his dinner upon 
 that day without any further reference to tlie governor, or any other person in 
 authority. This is the essence of that kind of punishment. 
 
 3Q2 2. Would not it be optional with the governor of a county gaol very 
 much to lay down such a rule ; does not that fall under one of the rules of 
 discipline ? 
 
 I do not know how that would be in county gaols, but I understood that it 
 was not legal at Millbank ; that there is the want of power to do it. 
 
 3923. Earl of Dudley.'] Is it the practice that the case should be heard at 
 the end of the week ? 
 
 All serious cases are heard when the director comes ; supposing a man com- 
 mits an offence on a Friday, and the director comes on '^I'hursday, he has to 
 be kept till tlie Thursday before the matter can be heard, and the offender 
 punished. The punishment is most wholesome when it is inflicted upon the 
 prisoner immediately. 
 
 3924. In fact, that is another answer to the question of the noble Chairman, 
 whether you did not think it a salutary thing that punishment should imme- 
 diately follow the offence r 
 
 It is more than that ; I mean that a certain consequence should follow a 
 certain act, and that the prisoner should know it previously. 
 
 392-,. Chairman.] Is there any other suggestion that you have to make to 
 the Committee ? 
 
 There is another suggestion tliat I should like to make ; I should like to 
 point out the jiresent anomaly which exists with regard to the punishment of 
 very serious offences within the ])rison ; a man may make an attempt on the 
 life of a warder, and he may i-eceive merely a prison punishment for it, and not 
 even be flogged for it ; he is not of necessity tried lor that offence, because 
 (I speak of my own knowledge) there are cases where he is not tried for that 
 very heinous offence; at all. Therefore, he is better off than if he were not 
 a prisoner. I should think it would be very desirable to consider whether 
 a person being already in prison under punishment for an offence, and making 
 not a simple assault, but a serious assault upon the life of an officer, shoidd not 
 be punished with death. 1 should think it ought to be so. I should like also 
 
 to
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 373 
 
 to be able to express the opinion that a man, who is guilty of an act of mutiny jy^ i Cuu, Esq., 
 
 in prison, should be liable to the punishment of death; but, at present, a m, b. 
 
 man is better off as a prisoner, if he commits an offence witliin the prison, — 7 
 
 than if he were outside the prison and committed the same offence. ^^'^^ '^P'^'' ^^^'^' 
 
 3926. Chairman.'] Would not the natural course be that he should be 
 indicted for such an offence ? 
 
 That is the proper course, but it is not adopted uniformly ; the Home Office, 
 with regard to those offences, seems sometimes to indict and sometimes not 
 to indict for precisely the same offence. 
 
 3927. Have you known, from your own experience, cases where an officer's 
 life has been attempted by a prisoner, and where no punishment has been consequent 
 ujjon the otl'ence ? 
 
 I know of two cases which occurred within a short period of each other, in 
 which the jirisonors were not tried for the offence ; they were not flogged, but 
 they were simply put back into the penal class for a certain length of time ; it 
 was simply a prison punisliment which was inflicted upon them ; no other notice 
 was taken of the offence. 
 
 3928. Was the offence in those cases an attempt on the life of the warders? 
 Yes, a serious attempt upon their lives ; in one case it was by means of a piece 
 
 of iron, whicli the prisoner had contrived to pick up whilst he was taking exercise, 
 and whicli happened to be lying about ; he secreted it, and shaqiened it up so as 
 to make a dagger of it ; twisted some cord about it, which he contrived to secrete, 
 making a kind of handle ; and he cut the warder through the forehead, dividing 
 the artery of the temple, and of course endangering his life, and intending to 
 destroy it. In the other case, the attempt on the warder's life was equally serious. 
 
 3929. Earl of Rovincy.~\ Since that, has there not been a case in which an 
 assault of some kind was committed, and the man was tried ? 
 
 Yes ; but it is not uniformly the case ; at least there seems to be no uiiifurm 
 rule ; sometimes a prisoner is put upon his trial, and sometimes he is not. But I 
 tlunk it very important that such a Committee, as your Lordships', should consider 
 how such very serious oftences in prison should be treated, and more especially 
 the broad question whether a man being a prisoner is not a greater culprit, 
 when he does those things, than if he were not a prisoner at all. 
 
 3930. Chairman.'] You would recommend that in every such attemjit as that 
 it should be made obligatory that the prisoner should be brought to trial ? 
 
 Yes, certainly, and in addition to that, that it should be considered a more 
 serious offence from the fact of his being a prisoner in prison. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 GEORGE PINSON, Esquire, is called in ; and Examined, as follows : G. Pinsov., i:„j. 
 
 3931. Chairman.] YOU are the Governor of Norwich Castle Gaol, are you 
 iiot ? 
 
 I am the Governor of the County Gaol. 
 
 3931.* How long have you held that office? 
 Nearly 20 years. 
 
 3932. What is the average number of prisoners who are confined in that gaol ? 
 The average of 1862, was 125. 
 
 3933. May that be accepted as a fair average in past years ? 
 
 No, there has been an alteration of late, which makes it not so, because one uf 
 the prisons in the county has been abolished, and consequently the ])risoners 
 formerly sent to that prison are all brought now to Norwich Castle ; and I also 
 receive prisoners under contract, from two boroughs. 
 
 3934. Were the abolition of that county prison, and the amalgamation of the 
 borough prison with the county prison, eflected under the powers of the Act? 
 
 One county prison has been JU)olished altogether, the county considering that 
 the I risoii was unnecessary ; and in the boronghs that I have alluded to, they 
 found that the county could receive their prisoners under contract, and con- 
 
 (37. lL>.) 3 A 3 sequently
 
 374 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 G. Pinson, Esq. sequeiitlv one borough prison was entirely abolished, and the other, that of Kin<i-'s 
 Lynn, nearly so. 
 
 ''' 393 ')• ^^o y^^^ mean that the borough prisons of" Thetford and Lynn liave been 
 amalgamated v^ith the county prison under the powers of the Act of Parliament? 
 We receive their prisoners under contract. 
 
 3936. Are you not aware that there is a difference between the amalgamation 
 of a borough prison «itli a county prison, and contracting, on the part of the 
 county prison, to take the borough prisoners? 
 
 1 am not aware of it ; I think that there is no amalgamation with regard to 
 taking those prisoners. 
 
 3937. At what rate, per head, do you contract? 
 At 4 s. G d. per liead, per week, 
 
 3938. How many borough gaols have contracted with you ? 
 Two ; Lynn and Thetford. 
 
 3939. Has any difficulty been experienced in making arrangements for con- 
 tracting with you ? 
 
 No difficulty whatever. 
 
 3940. Is the county prison upon the separate system ? 
 It is. 
 
 3941. Are all the cells certified by the Inspector? 
 Nearly all ; as many as are in use, are certified. 
 
 394'.'. Will you state to the Committee what the distribution of the day is^with 
 regard to employment, exercise, chapel, instruction and sleep? 
 
 Every prisoner must be ready to leave his cell at six in the morning ; he is 
 allowed half-an-huur for the purpose of washing, and general exercise, clianino-, 
 and so on ; at half-past six they proceed to work : first of all, those who go to 
 the tread-wheel are sent on to the wheel; immediately after they are put to 
 work, other ]irisoners, who are employed at industrial occu|)ati(>ns, are set to work, 
 and are kept at work until about 10 minutes to 9, when they return, and 
 come to the airing-yard and receive their breakfast, and each prisoner goes on to 
 his cell ; ihen of course there is their time for breakfast until half past nine ; at 
 half-past nine they proceed to chapel ; the chapel service, in the ordinary course 
 of things, lasts about half-au-hour, or rather over that, and then they go on to 
 their work again in the same order as in the morning, going on till 20 or 2.5 mi- 
 nutes past 12, so that the dinner may be served between that and 20 minutes to 
 one ; all then retire to their cells again, and are allowed an hour up to half- 
 past one for their dinn(!r; at half past one every prisoner is again set to work, 
 and continues working until half-past five ; at half-past five they take any further 
 exercise that may be required ; and from that go on to their cells to their supper, 
 for half or three (juarters of an hour; after that, every prisoner is required to work 
 in his cell at industrial employment of some kinder other, until eight o'clock, 
 when bed clothes are given in, but the prisoners are allowed a reasonable time for 
 reading, and soon, during that time; at half-past eight every prisoner goes to 
 bed. 
 
 3943- Therefore, to put the whole of those details into a summary, the case 
 would stand thus : labour about 10 hours in the day ; washing cells, and exercise, 
 about an hour and a half , cliapel about haU-an-hour ; time to themselves in their 
 cells for self-instruction, or for making their beds, about one hour, and sleep about 
 nine hours ? 
 
 Yes, tliat is the case. 
 
 3944. V.i\\\ of Ditdhji.'] I do not see at what period they take exercise, unless 
 you consider liie trcudwheel exerciser 
 
 There is a half hour of exercise in the morning. As soon as a man is washed 
 (there is no standing still in the yard), he cojunienccs walking round the 
 yard. Those who are at work or industrial employment are out a quarter of an 
 hour befoii- the others in oider that they should h ive their washing and exercise, 
 and they go up again before the others come from the wheel. 
 
 3945. W"\\\ you state to the Committee whether the treadwheel, as you employ 
 it in iNorwicli Castle, is of the ordinary construction . - 
 
 It is in se,)arate boxes entirely. 
 
 3946. Consequently
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 375 
 
 3946. Consoqiiently, the prisoners are in separate confinement, whilst they G. Finson, Esq. 
 are on the treadwheel ? 
 
 Entirely so. • 2 S th April 186 3. 
 
 3947. Have they any opportunities of communicating with each other in coming 
 to or ffoins: from the treadwhcel ? 
 
 No ; the officers are so jjlaced on then- way as to prevent that ; there are four 
 officers to conduct them from the cells to the wheel. It would be idle to say that 
 such a thing as communication never takes place ; but, on the other hand, I am 
 prepared to say that, in a general way, such thing does take [)lace ; there are some 
 few detections, of course. 
 
 39^8. As a general rule they would be detected ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3049. Is there no index or register by which the time of working on the tread- 
 wheel, and the number of feet ascended are marked? 
 
 ■^1 he number of feet ascended are registered by the operation of the treadwheel, 
 and also the speed of the wheel, which is two rounds per minute. At every GO 
 rounds the wheel by its own operation rings a bell and the men get oft'. 
 
 Sg/jo. So that the mere action of the wheel does register the amount of working 
 that is eft'ected r 
 
 It does entirely so. Every prisoner has an oppoilunity of seeing whether he is 
 doinomore than the reuulations direct or not. 
 
 3051 . Do you apply the wheel to any productive labour ? 
 
 We apply it first to raising water for the use of the building, and after that it 
 is used with condensed air, simply with a view of performing labour, so as to 
 regulate the speed. 
 
 3952. That is to siiy, when a sufficient amount of water has been raised, you 
 pump to waste ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3953. Have yon ever found that any sense of degradation is conveyed to the 
 minds of the prisoners by that act; or that very great irritation is set up in their 
 minds against the use of the treadwheel under such circumstances? 
 
 Never ; I have never heard a sound of such a thing. 
 
 3954. Loid Wodefiouse.] Was the treadwheel formerly applied for the purpose 
 of grinding corn ? 
 
 It was 20 years ago. 
 
 3955. Why was that given up ? 
 
 Because taking the machinery altogether it was found that the labour cost more 
 than it produced, and not only so, but you could not work any number of luen 
 in the same way as we now can. 
 
 39.56. Chairman.'] What is the amount of work which is required from every 
 man at the treadwheel ? 
 
 Half-an-hour each time, then resting 10 minutes. 
 
 3957. Do yon mean that the 10 minutes follows the half hour, or that it forms 
 part of the half hour ? 
 
 It follows the half hour ; if a man goes to work at half-past six, he will work 
 until seven, at that time a beil rings, and he gets down, and sits still for 10 minutes, 
 and then goes on again. 
 
 3958. How many hours a day is a prisoner employed on the treadwheel ? 
 Taking in the 10 minutes, and looking upon that as work, it would be 
 
 nine hours. 
 
 30.i9- Are there prisoners in Norwich Castle Gaol who do work upon the 
 treadwheel for nine hours subject to the ordinary reliefs? 
 Yes. 
 
 3960. Do you use the crank at all ? 
 No, I have no such a thing in the prison. 
 
 3961. Have you industrial occupation r 
 Yes. 
 
 (37.1'2.) 3 A 4 3962. Ot
 
 376 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 o. Pinson, Esq. SQ^'^- Of ^^liat iiaturo is it ? 
 
 It is of almost every kind. I begin by door-mat making, and things of tliat 
 
 28tli April (863. soi-t ; tben ^ve have weaving- in all its branches, almost that I can bring to bear ; 
 
 I am not only -weaving coir, matting, carpeting, and everything of that descrijition, 
 
 but I am also now weaving our own clothing. We then go on to shoe-makingv 
 also glove making, and \\e do a great deal of hair picking, and work of that kind 
 for cabinet-makers ; indeed, every kind of work that I can bring to bear is 
 done in the prison. 
 
 3963. Do you apply industrial occupation as a punishment to short-sentenced 
 prisoners? 
 No. 
 
 3g64. At what ])eriod in a man's punishment does the industrial occupation 
 commence ? 
 
 It would be useless to attempt to teach a man so as to do much good^ 
 except in hair picking and such like things vnider three months ; 1 rarely take a 
 man into general industrial employment who is not sentenced to something like 
 six months' imprisonment. 
 
 396.5. In proportion as industrial occupation is allowed to take place, you 
 would reduce the work on the treadwbeel ? 
 Yes. 
 
 3966. Does every prisoner do some work on the treadwheel, provided that he 
 is not medically incapacitated during the whole period of his confinement in 
 prison ? 
 
 No, not exactly so ; supposing I take a man oft' the wheel, and he brings to bear 
 that amount of skill and industry that I think he is fully capable of doing, or 
 supposing he goes on fully to my satisfiiction, and I see that there is really 
 a chance of doing the man some good as well, he is kept at some industrial 
 emjiloyment ; but what I meant by my answer was that every prisoner first of all 
 goes to the treadwheel labour, and then I judge whether or not there is anything 
 about the man that is worth my endeavour to take hira off it. 
 
 3967. Assuming the case of a prisoner who had been convicted and recon- 
 victed a large number of times, and upon whom you thought it was impossible to 
 make any impression by industrial occupation, would you hesitate to keep such a 
 man, under the present system, at the treadwheel during the whole of his 
 imjirisonment ? 
 
 I would keej) him there tlie whole of his time. 
 
 3968. Even though that sentence extended to 18 months or two vears? 
 
 I have had but very few cases where a man has been so often in prison as your 
 Lordship has alluded to, and has had such a long imprisonment as that ; but for 
 a year I should keep him to the treadwheel. 
 
 3069. Have you never found any injurious results from the operation of the 
 treadwheel which would lead you to suspend its operation ? 
 
 There are some cases, imdoubtedly, of men imprisoned for a long period, in. 
 which keeping them very close at treadwheel labour will bring very strong men 
 down. 
 
 3970. AVhai is the greatest length of time that you think you can allot to 
 treadwheel labour, in the case of a man who is sentenced to six months ? 
 
 I have ])lenty of persons who undergo the entire nine hours per day for six 
 months, without the labour producing any injurious effects. 
 
 3071. But there are otiier Ciises, are there not, in which the treadwheel labour 
 altogether ceases after a certain period, and it is replaced exclusively by industrial 
 occupation ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3972. How many hours in the day do you exact that industrial work? 
 From 10 to 10^ hours. 
 
 3973. Lord W(idchoii.-ic.'\ If a man misbehaves himself at industrial labour, do 
 you put him back to the treadwheel '. 
 
 Yes, provided he does not go so far as to commit a breach of prison rules ; but 
 he does not bring to bear the amount of skill and industry that he is capable 
 of, I should send him back to the treadwheel, certainly. 
 
 3974. Earl
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 337 
 
 3974. Earl of Romner/.] A sentence of hard labour, as passed by the Court, is G. Pinson, Esq. 
 
 carried out, either on the wheel or at industrial labour, according to your discre- 
 
 tion, is it not r ° 28th April i86,i. 
 
 Yes, it is so to a great extent. 
 
 3975. Earl of Dudley.'] If a man is capable of hard labour on the wheel you 
 begin with the wheel, do you not, in every case ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3976. Is it considered a punishment by the prisoner if ho is made to go back 
 to the wheel ? 
 
 Yes, he looks upon that as a degradation to him. 
 
 3077. He is afraid of that punishment ? 
 Yes. 
 
 3978. Chairman.'] You state that the prisoner looks at it as a kind of de"-rada- 
 tion ; you mean a degradation in this sense, do you not, tliat havino- been in a 
 higher class of prison discipline he is put back to the lower class r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3979. But you do not mean to say, that work upon the treadwheel produces 
 in the mind of the prisoner a lowering and degrading effect ? 
 
 No, that is not my meaning. 
 
 39S0. Do you, with the industrial occupation, assign task-work to the pri- 
 soners ? 
 
 I cannot in many cases very well do that ; we judge pretty well of the men 
 according to circumstances ; but you cannot, in industrial employment, always 
 assign a given quantity of work to a man. 
 
 3981. Is it not a very great difficulty, in industrial occujjation, to measure the 
 amount of work by a man's special ability ? 
 
 No ; I do not find any difficulty in that at all. 
 
 3982. Do you never find yourself deceived in that respect? 
 
 It would be idle for me to say that 1 never was deceived ; but, speaking gene- 
 rally, I do not think that I have been very much deceived. 
 
 39S3. Under what circumstances is the instruction given in your prison ? 
 
 There is a schoolmaster appointed who does nothing else, and also every officer 
 of the prison is a kind of sub-schoolmaster ; the prisoner is authorised to ask any 
 officer in whose presence he is for instruction, and the officer is bound to give him 
 an answer. 
 
 3984. Do you allow the warders to communicate witli the prisoners on in- 
 different subjects ? 
 
 Certainly not, as to general conversation. 
 
 3985. Therefore the communication would be limited to a question and answer 
 with regard to some matter of education ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3986. How often does every prisoner go into school r 
 
 Speaking generally, I think they reach the school once a week, but the school- 
 master also visits* tlie prisoners in their cells, and gives them other instructions 
 beyond assembling them in the school. 
 
 3987. When in school how long does the instruction last? 
 Perhaps an hour or an hour and a lialf, according to circumstances. 
 
 3988. Is it a matter of arrangement between you and the chaplain, or the 
 schoolmaster, that a certain number of prisoners shall be taken in rotation, from a 
 certain class, once during every week t 
 
 I leave that entirely in the chaplain's hands, unless there is any special circum- 
 stance that tlie chaplain wishes to communicate to me. 
 
 3989. Does the chaplain select the prisoners.for instruction, at his own discre- 
 tion, from the different parts of the saol ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 3990. Does not that lead to some difficulty, and cause some confusion in the 
 regular distribution of the work ? 
 
 (37. 1:3.) 3 B I have
 
 378 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 G. Pinson, Esq. I have not experienced any ; supposing that a man was about any particular 
 
 job, for instance, that I really wanted to have him finish, then I have nothing to 
 
 28 th April 18 63. ^^ ^^^^^ ^^ g^^^ ,, J g^^Q^^j^ ^g g^j^j jf ^.^y ^^^^i^i tj^],g p^^ B and C to-morrow 
 
 for school, instead of to-day ;" but that is the only thing which has ever occurred, 
 in any way. 
 
 3991. Have you a schoolroom, or do you make use of the chapel ? 
 We have a schoolroom adjoining the chaplain's room. 
 
 3992. What is the number of prisoners engaged in class at the same time? 
 There would not be above- eight or nine at any time. 
 
 309:5. Who would be present in tlie room at the time of instruction? 
 N'o one but the schoolmaster. 
 
 399d. Would you not have a disciplinary officer? 
 
 Ko; it is understood that the schoolmaster is to take charge of those prisoners, 
 and not to allow any communication to take place between them. 
 
 3995. Are the prisoners separated from each other by any compartments ? 
 
 No. 
 
 3996. Are there any separations or stalls in the chapel r 
 
 Yes, there are several boxes in the chapel ; tlie chapel is of a semicu-cular form, 
 and the prisoners are ranged off in classes. 
 
 3997. Consequently, are the prisoners in the chapel so separated from each 
 other that they cannot communicate with each other ? 
 
 Only the classes are separate. There are perhaps 20 or 25 persons sitting 
 too-ether, and one officer is sitting in front, seeing the countenance of every 
 individual, and another officer is seated behind them, or amongst them, in order 
 to liear or see anything that might be going on. 
 
 399S. Has that always been the system in Norwich Castle ? 
 Yes. 
 
 3999. You are aware that considerable difference of opinion exists with regard 
 to that system whii-h separates the prisoners one from the other when in chapel by 
 means of stalls or compartments, and that system wdiich permits of the association 
 of the prisoners during the hours of service. Which is the system that, from your 
 experience, you would consider desirable ? 
 
 I have not the most remote objection to their being placed in bodies ; indeed, I 
 give the preference to it. 
 
 4000. If I understand you, in Norwich Castle the association is not complete, 
 inasmuch as tlie different classes are separated off the one from the other ? 
 
 Yes, they are, in consequence of the formation of the chapel ; but supposing 
 that the chapel was so constructed that I could have it on one open inclined plane, 
 so that everybody could be sitting in such a position that you could see all of them 
 thoroughly, I should have no objection to their being so placed. 
 
 400 I . Do you not think that the absence of compartments leads to a good deal 
 of communication ? 
 
 No, I think not; it is a very rare thing indeed that we have a complaint of 
 anything of that kind in the chapel. 
 
 4002. How many officers liave you in the chapel? 
 
 In the chapel there would always be seven officers present, besides myself, and 
 sometimes eight. 
 
 4003. Viscount Everslei/.] How many prisoners do you say there would be in 
 each compartment of tlie chajiel ? 
 
 That dc[)ends upon the class to which they belong ; each compartment would 
 hold 25 or 2G ; it would depend upon circumstances. 
 
 4004. C/iairmau.] Upon what principle would you classify those prisoners; 
 would it be according to conduct, or according to length of sentence ? 
 
 Felons, misdemeanants, prisoners waiting for trial, and so on. 
 
 4005. Earl of Dudley^ You do not mix those classes, I presume ? 
 
 We do not. 
 
 4006. Clmirman.']
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRTSOX DISCIPLINE. 379 , 
 
 4006. C/iain/uiii.l Of course there are always some prisoners in evcrv prison G. Pvuon, Esq. 
 who are more difficult than others to kee() in order ; would you class all those who ' — ~ 
 were very difficult to manage in one of those divisions? "^ ^ P" ' '^' 
 
 I have not had a very great deal of difficulty in that May ; assuming that a man ' 
 
 was something very bad, 1 should take care that he was by himself in some way 
 or other ; but I have had so few cases of that kind that no difficulty has arisen; 
 the numl)er of ])unishments in the gaol I may say has been small, and vet the 
 fullest order has been maintained. 
 
 4007. In the case of prison punishments inflicted for breaches of the prison 
 rules, have you found corporal punishment very effective ? 
 
 I have not applied it for many years ; 1 have no occasion to do so, for the last 
 16 or 17 years. 
 
 4008. Would you be willing to surrender that power ? 
 
 I think it as well to retain it ; but 1 am pleased to say that Ave have not found 
 it necessary to resort to it ; and, bejond that, I may say that it is very rare indeed 
 that I have exercised the exteiit of my own authority; 1 happened to look into 
 that matter last night, and 1 found that during 10 years I have only exercised 
 the extent of my own authority 11 times; that is to say, to the extent of 
 punishing a man wfth three days' bread and water. 
 
 4009. During the course of the time that you have been governor of the gaol, 
 have there not been instances in which prisoners have attempted to do acts of 
 violence upon the officers or the Avarders of the prison ? 
 
 I have had two instances of that kind since I have been governor. 
 
 4010. In such cases, what in your opinion is the proper punishment? 
 
 In the case of one of those men, corporal juinishmenc. would have followed, 
 had the man been capable of bearing it ; but he had palpitation of the heart, so 
 that it could not be inflicted. But the other case was a very slight matter 
 indeed. 
 
 401 1. May not cases possibly occur in which it maybe desirable to retain 
 that power? 
 
 I think it is desirable to retain the power, certainly. 
 
 4012. Are there not cases of repeated disobedience, destruction of prison 
 property, destruction of clothes, and very filthy and indecent conduct, in which 
 cases it is desirable to retain the poM'er of inflicting corporal punishment? 
 
 I think so. 
 
 4013. Do you make any use of the dark cells? 
 I have not such a thing in the prison. 
 
 4014. Where is a man confined when he is punished with bread and water, 
 and confinement to his cell ? 
 
 In his ordinary cell. 
 
 ■ 401 5. Have you anv good-conduct marks? 
 
 4016. Tlierefore I understand that the only punishment which at present is in 
 force would be the reduction of diet ? 
 
 Yes ; confinement to his cell, and reduction of diet. 
 
 4017. Do you ever have recourse to solitary confinement as distinguished from 
 separate confinement ? 
 
 It would be solitary confinement, if a man is entirely confined to his roll, and 
 not allowed any communication. Supjiosing I find it necessary to continue the 
 punishment to any extent, he does not come into the yard when any prisoners 
 are there, or come into contact with them in any way ; consequently, it really 
 becomes solitary confinement. 
 
 4018. Has he not the power of communicating with the different warders and 
 turnkeys r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4019. Earl of Dudley.^ Does not he see you every day ? 
 Yes. 
 
 (37. 12.) 3 B 2 4020. Does
 
 380 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 G. Pinson, Esq. 4020. Does not he see the chaplain every day? 
 Yes. 
 
 28th April 1863. 
 
 4021. Does not he see the surgeon every day ? 
 Yes. 
 
 402 _'. Then it is not solitary confinement, being only as solitary as you make it 
 by withdrawing the man from the yards ? 
 
 In all cases where a man is sentenced to solitary confinement, he must see the 
 officers of the gaol. I am bound to see every prisoner in solitary confinement, and 
 so are the surgeon and the chaplain. 
 
 40-23. So that even the case of solitary confinement admits of his seeing three 
 or four or five persons every day ? . 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4024. Chairman?^ What is the scale of diet which is in use in your gaol ; is it 
 framed upon the Government scale ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4025. Is it the same as the Government scale ? 
 
 Yes ; this is the dietary table {delivering in the same). 
 
 4026. In your opinion, is that scale satisfactory? 
 To my mind it is. 
 
 4027. Are you of opinion that the first and second classes afford a sufficient 
 diet for the prisoners who are sentenced under those classes ? 
 
 Speaking of seven and 21 days, I think they are. 
 
 4028. You consider that the amount of dietary is just what is required by 
 prisoners under these circumstances ? 
 
 I do. 
 
 4029. Do you consider that the 4th and 5th Classes are rather high ? 
 Provided we really carry out a wholesome system of discipline, I think they are 
 
 not; when I say a wholesome system of discipline, I mean such discipline as 
 ought to be carried out ; and then 1 really do not think they are too high. 
 
 4030. Can you suggest no amendment in your scale of dietary ? 
 Conscientiously, I cannot. 
 
 403 1 . Do you believe that each stage is suitable to the different classes of 
 prisoners to whom it respectively applies ? 
 
 I do. 
 
 4032. Lord Steward.] Do you think that a reduction of that scale would have 
 the effect of deteriurating the condition of the prisoners ? 
 
 I do, decidedly. 
 
 4033. You tliink it is not more than sufficient to keep them in a healthy con- 
 dition ? 
 
 I tliink not ; particularly when I recollect what I have seen in the case of pri- 
 soners under the old dietary, which was not so nutritious as the present ; and I 
 know what the effect of that has been : it has led me to that conclusion from 
 constantly seeing them reduced bv scurvy to such a state that you could carry out 
 no discipline upon them. 
 
 4034. Earl of Dudley^ Is not that more as regards the material than the 
 quantity ? 
 
 I do not think they get too much to eat. 
 
 4035. Lord Steward.] Do you think that, without rendering the food less 
 nutritious, you might advantageously render it less palatable ? 
 
 Perhaps you might in some way do that, but I certainly would not alter the 
 quantity of nutriment, by any means. 
 
 4036. Earl oi Dudley.] Do you make every prisoner who comes into your gaol 
 pass through every degree of diet ; that is to say, when a man first comes in, does 
 he begin with the lowest diet? 
 
 No ; we put him at once upon the diet to which he belongs. 
 
 4037. Viscount
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON' DISCIPLINE. '381 
 
 4037. Viscount Everski/.] You do not consider tliat there is an excess of meat G. Pinson, Esq. 
 in tlie prison diet r 
 
 I do not. 28th April 1863. 
 
 4038. Duke of Richmond.] When you state that you take the prisoners off the 
 wheel and put them to industrial labour, are the Committee to understand you to 
 say, that you do not do that in the case of sentences under three mouths? 
 
 No, I do not think it is at all worth while. 
 
 4039. What is the short time that they remain upon the wheel before you put 
 them to an industrial occupation } 
 
 That depends a great deal upon the man himself, and the opinion that I may 
 form of him and all the surrounding circumstances ; some, perhaps, are taken off 
 in a month's time, and some in two months. 
 
 4040. You state that the opinions that you form of a man influence you in 
 putting him to industrial labour. What are the opinions that you allude to, and 
 what means have you of forming them ? 
 
 I first look at all the circumstances which I can possibly gather in reference to 
 the man himself; what his circumstances in life arc ; whether it is his first offence, 
 and various other things ; and then I also see what his conduct is, whether he 
 really promises anything that is worth doing; and then after that, if I become 
 satisfied that there is a reasonable chance of his doing any good, and profiting by 
 industrial employment, I try him. 
 
 4041. You say that you take all the surrounding circumstances into considera- 
 tion, and you also say that if you think he can be profitably employed you give 
 him a chance ; do you mean that a man who did not display any talent or aptitude 
 for industrial labour would be kept to the treadwheel, whilst others who evinced 
 aptitude for it would be jiut to industrial labour ? 
 
 That would have some bearing upon it, undoubtedly ; but all that my obser- 
 vations meant was, whether I thought the man could be profitably employed 
 to himself as well as to the county; whetiier I thought he was such a person 
 as that his being employed in industrial occupation would be beneficial to 
 himself. 
 
 4042. Would the question as to whether it is any benefit to the county or not 
 enter into your consideration? 
 
 Not as much as whether I could benefit the man. 
 
 4043. Viscount Eversley^ Would it enter in any degree into your considera- 
 tion ? 
 
 If 1 thought that he was of no use at all it Avould be no use employing him. 
 
 4044. Earl of Ducllei/.] If you get a Norwich man, and he knows a trade, are 
 not you inclined to put that man to labour which will begin to pay, as soon as 
 possible, instead of wasting his powers at the w heel ? 
 
 Not unless he showed that in a satisfactory way to me. 
 
 4045. The object of the noble Duke's inquiry is this ; are you governed as to 
 your punishments by the consideration whether money can be made in order to 
 pay the expenses of the gaol, and so save the county from expense. 
 
 Not so much by that as I look to the discipline and to the benefit of the man 
 himself. 
 
 4046. Duke of Richmond.'] The power of taking a man from the wheel and 
 putting him to industrial labour, is solely in your hands and in your discretion, is 
 it not ? 
 
 It is pretty well so. Of course, if there is anything upon which I feel it is 
 necessary to consult the visiting justices, I do so. The plan is, that each visiting- 
 justice takes a month, and he visits the gaol once a week during that month, and 
 then an}' circumstance that may occur to myself during the week, I mention to 
 the visitor for the time being. 
 
 4047. Have the visiting justices laid down any code of rules which would direct 
 you in your conduct in this matter ? 
 
 They have not. 
 
 4048. Then it is entirely left to your discretion, suliject to any consultation 
 which you may think advisable to have with the visiting justices ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 (37. i-,.) 3 B 3 4049- ^"'i
 
 382 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 G . P bison I JEsq. 
 
 4049. And It might so happen, might it not, that for a long period you mio-ht 
 g , . ., „ never resort to the visiting justices for their advice ? "^ 
 
 2»t ii Apni 18D 3. jt j„igi^t ^jg go^ jf tj,gj.g ^^.^g nothing to need it. 
 
 40,50. Lord Wodchouse.'] Is not that system open to this objection, that it 
 leaves so much to the discretion of the governor, that it is possible that the 
 governor might be oppressive to the prisoners ? 
 
 Of course he might be so, umloubtedly ; but at the same time I think I may 
 say on the other side, that tlie gaol being visited, as it is, every week, and the 
 prisoner always having opportunities of complaining, I do not see hovF very much 
 oppression could possibly take place. 
 
 405 T. Do you think that, by a system of marks or good conduct badges, that 
 objection might bo remedied r 
 Yes, I think it might. 
 
 ^052. I mean, would not the visiting justices, if a prisoner was obliged to gain 
 so many marks before he was placed at industrial labour, liave an ojiportunity of 
 knowing at any time whether any given prisoner had been treated according to 
 the rules laid down .- 
 
 Yes, undoubtedly. 
 
 4053. Lord Steward.] Is it your primary object to reform or to deter a pri- 
 soner r 
 
 I embrace both those objects, of course. 
 
 4054. Do you conceive that the system now in force in yonr gaol has that 
 double effect ? 
 
 I think it has, to a very great extent. 
 
 40,55. Can you reasonably hope to reform a prisoner who is sentenced for a 
 short period ? 
 
 For a very short period it is nothing but punishment, of course. 
 
 4056. Has the number of re-committals increased or diminished in the last few 
 years, since your present system has been in operation ? 
 
 Taking them at an average of 10 years, my re-committals come out as near as 
 possible to one in six ; I have had within the last two years a slight increase of 
 re-committals, but I attribute that in a very great degree, and without, I hope, 
 saying too much, to the circumstance that in the last two years I have 
 had a fresh class of prisoners, namely, prisoners brought to me from other 
 prisons ; I camiot quite say whether it is due to that entirely. In 1 853, I had 
 831 conmiittals, and 159 re-committals; in 1854, 794 committals, and 129 
 re-committals; in 1855, G88 committals, and 105 re-committals ; in 185G, 542 
 committals, and 81- re-committals ; in 1857, 557 committals, and 78 re-com- 
 mittals; in 185S, 597 conmiitials, and 95 re-committals ; in 1859, 520 commit- 
 tals, and 88 re-committals ; in 18G0, 483 committals, and 97 ro-committals ; in 
 1861, 691 committals, and 119 re-committals; in 1862, 862 committals, and 
 172 re-committals ; making a total of 6,565 committals, and 1,123 re-committals 
 in the last two years is something like one in five. 
 
 4057. Can you give a similar table for the preceding 10 years ? 
 No, I cannot. 
 
 4058. Chairmanl] Have you any suggestion which you would wish to make to 
 the Committee ? 
 
 No. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday, 
 One o'clock.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 383 
 
 Die Jovis, 30° Ajmlls 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT: 
 
 Duke, of Richmond. , Earl Cathcart, 
 
 Duke of Marlborough. Earl of Ducie. 
 
 Marquess of Salisbury. | Earl of Dudley. 
 
 Lord Steward. 
 Earl of Carxarvox. 
 Earl of RoMNEY. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLET. 
 Lord "WODEHOUSE. 
 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair. 
 
 WILLIAM LINTON, Esquire, is called in, and examined as follows : 
 
 Evidence on 
 Prison Discipline. 
 
 W. Linton, Esq. 
 
 4050. Chairman.l YOU are Governor of the West Sussex County Gaol at , ., „^ 
 
 Petworthr 3° thApnI.86 3. 
 
 I am. 
 
 4060. How long have you held the office of Governor of that gaol ? 
 Six and a quarter years. 
 
 4061. 'Wliat office did you hold previously ? 
 
 I have been a governor of prisons over 1 5 years, and a subordinate officer suf- 
 ficiently long to make it over 20 years. 
 
 4061*. Earl Cathcart.l Had you been brought up in a prison during your 
 previous life ? 
 
 I have been for more than 20 years a prison officer. I commenced at 18 
 years of age. 
 
 4062. \Miere chd you commence your prison duties? 
 At PentonvUle. 
 
 4063. How long were you at Pentonville ? 
 Four years and a half ; from the opening. 
 
 4064. Consequently the whole question of prison disciphne has been very 
 much before j-our mind for many years past ? 
 
 It has. 
 
 4065. Wliat is the average number of prisoners confined in the West Sussex 
 gaol ? 
 
 The number varies very much indeed ; I left 89 prisoners there this mornuig ; 
 last quarter the daily average was 92, and sometimes it is as low as GO. 
 
 4066. Is that gaol on the separate system? 
 It is a modified species of separation. 
 
 4067. Will you explain what you mean by that ? 
 
 I mean tliat the separate system is not carried out in all its strictness ; every 
 prisoner has a separate ceU, but we bring them together at chapel ; our aning 
 yard is an open }'ard, and not walled off separately ; at the wheel the}- can see 
 each other, though they are not allowed to communicate ; and while the}- are on 
 the wheel they are in separate compartments : when working at the cranks 
 they are kept of course more strictly separate. 
 
 4068. Are the cells certified by the inspector ? 
 
 They are not, and the probable reason of that is that the separate system 
 
 originated at the Petworth gaol, and we consider that we have a prescriptive 
 
 (37. 13.) 3 B 4 right
 
 30th April 1863. 
 
 384 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 TT. Linton, Esq. right to use them without a certificate ; at any rate I know that we carry out 
 the separate system as strictly as is clone in many certificated prisons. 
 
 4069. What is the size of the cells ? 
 We have 30 cells 1 3 feet by 1 feet area, and nine feet high to the crown of 
 
 the arch, and 60 cells nine feet l)y six feet area, and 10 feet high, square. 
 
 4070. Practically, therefore, those cells are not very inferior in size, and in 
 the amount of air that they contain, to those ^lls that are oi-dinarily certified by 
 the inspector ? 
 
 I think those cells that are 1 3 feet by 1 feet area are much superior to the 
 ordinary run of separate cells ; and the others are a very fair size for limited 
 terms. 
 
 4071. How are they ventilated ? 
 They are ventilated externally and internally ; it is not upon the modern system 
 
 of ventilation, but still it is an effective one. 
 
 4072. Has the inspector ever raised any question on the ground of the cells 
 not being certified by him ? 
 
 He has not. 
 
 4073. I presume that }'ou mean by internal and external, that the ventilation 
 is partly external and parti}' internal ? 
 
 Yes ; there is a window which opens to the external air, so that it can be 
 admitted directly. 
 
 4074. Earl of Romiiej/.^ ^Vhat causes the internal flue to act ; what causes the 
 current of air ? 
 
 Our prison stands high. 
 
 4075. With what does that flue communicate ? 
 With the passages and with the roof. 
 
 4076. Chainnan.] How many visits does the inspector pay in the course of 
 the year, as a general rule ? 
 
 I have been at Petworth over six years, and I believe he has paid four -visits 
 in that time. 
 
 4077. That is, in point of fact, not one -^dsit in a year ? 
 It would be about one in every year and a half. 
 
 4078. During the course of his visits, how long a time is he within the gaol .' 
 I think he is there from about two to three hours. 
 
 4079. Does he pass through every cell ? 
 He does. 
 
 4080. Does he speak to every prisoner? 
 He does. 
 
 4081. Does he subsequently communicate wdth you? 
 He does. 
 
 4082. Does he leave any record of his visit in AATiting ? 
 He does not. 
 
 4083. The amount of time given to 3'ou and to each individual prisoner must 
 necessarily be very small r 
 
 Yes, it is necessarily so. He sends for the prisoners, and he tells them who 
 he is (of course in the absence of the officers), and he asks them if they have 
 any com])laint to make, or anything to say to him. 
 
 4084. Is the discij)line of your gaol, in your opinion, a severe cUscipline ? 
 I think it is decidedly severe. 
 
 408,5. What is the form of hard Ial)our that you use? 
 The treadwheel and the com])ined (u'ank. 
 
 4086. Do you also make use of industrial occui^ation ? 
 We do. 
 
 4087. In your ojiinion, therefore, you would draw a strong distinction between 
 the crank and the treadwheel as hard labour, and the industrial occupation as a 
 lighter form of labour ? 
 
 I would.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 385 
 
 I would. I consider tlie crank and the treadwheel to be strictly penal W, Linton Esa. 
 labour. " ' ' 
 
 4088. Will 30U be good enough to explain to the Committee the construction ^ ^' 
 of the treadwheel which is in use at the Petworth miol ? 
 
 The treadwheel is constructed for the double action of hand and foot. The 
 prisoners, of course, labour outside the v.heel. I have cut out of an old book 
 on the treadwheel, which I have b}' me, some diagrams which will probably ^"^'' ^PP^°<^'^- 
 explain the construction much better than anything 1 can say, if the Committee 
 will permit nie to hand them in (dclhwrhi// in tlie .■^aiiic). The one is a section 
 showing the mode in which the handrail is worked, as well as the wheel and 
 the other is a longitudinal section. 
 
 4089. Is there an}' mechanical difference between the wheel which you use 
 at Petworth and the wheel as it is used in the majority of prisons ? 
 
 I never saw a wheel like that at Petworth, and I ha^e seen a great number. 
 
 4090. Is it an effective wheel ? 
 
 It is much more effective than the ordinary run of wheels, because the man 
 has to use his hands as well as his legs ; and, indepenilently of the punitive 
 part of the matter, I think it is beneticial physically ; the strain upon the system 
 is, however, mvich greater. 
 
 4091. How long is it since the wheel at Petworth was constructed? 
 
 I am unable to say, but I ajiprehend that it was constructed at or about the 
 time of the Prison Committee in 1835. 
 
 4002. Did those diagrams come out of the Report of that Committee ? 
 No". 
 
 4093. Is there any other peculiarity belonging to this wheel that you could 
 specify to the Committee ? 
 
 No, except that while the men are at work they are in separate compart- 
 ments, and, which I think objectionable, it is in an inclosed apartment. 
 
 4094. Is there not sufficient ventilation ? 
 
 I do not think that there can be in an}' inclosed a])artment with such a 
 number of men in it at a time, and engaged in work of that kind. 
 
 4095. How many hours at a time are the men kept ujion the wheel r 
 They are em})loyed now about nine hours daily at the wheel. 
 
 4096. Does the nine hovn-s apply to the lowest class of penal discipline, or is 
 the nine hours' work exacted from all the jn'isoners ? 
 
 From all the i)risoners ; we make no tUstinction in that respect. 
 
 4097. Do you employ any prisoners nine hours on the treadwheel, subject, of 
 course, to the ordinar}' reliefs in tlie course of the da}' ? 
 
 Yes, I employ all for that period who are emplo} etl at the treadwheel. 
 
 4098. How man}' men are emplo}ed upon the treadwheel at the same 
 moment ? 
 
 Our wheel is 32 feet long, and it takes 1 (i men on at a time ; that is allowing 
 two feet per man. As we work it in sections, the reliefs would be 10, 15 at work, 
 and 10 sitting down. 
 
 4099. Are the men separated while they are relieved from work ? 
 
 The seats are placed diagonally ; I had them placed so myself, at as wide a 
 distance apart as the size of the building permitted ; and an officer is in the 
 centre, whose duty it is to see that not a word pq^ses from one to the other 
 at any time that the wheel revolves at its'jjroper speed, and that the men 
 take their reliefs in due order. 
 
 4100. Is the treadwheel applied to productive labour ? 
 Not at all. 
 
 4101. Is it ever used for any productive piu'jiose : 
 No, for nothing but piuiishment. 
 
 4102. Can }()u inform the Committee what the effect of that is upon the 
 temper of the men ; have you ever seen any signs of irritation on the part ot the 
 prisoners at being employed at unproductive labom* ? 
 
 I think not ; but I have at the severity of the labour. 
 
 (3;. 13.) 3 C 4'03- Witnesses
 
 386 :,IINUTE3 OF EVIDENCE TAKEN. BEFORE THE 
 
 jy. Linton, Esq. 4103. Witnesses have given evidence before this Committee that, in their 
 A — '\ or opinion, tlie use of the treadwheel, especiall)" where it is appUed to unproductive 
 
 '^^ ^^1 ^'' purposes, creates a sense of degradation in the minds of the prisoners, and great 
 
 irritation and exaspei-ation ; is that )'our opinion ? 
 
 Tliat is decidedly not m}^ conviction. I think that, generally speaking, the 
 prisoners are perfectly indifferent as to whether it is productive or unproductive ; 
 hut I do not consider it necessary to tell a prisoner that the labour he is doing 
 is throwii away, unless it is by way of remonstrance to him, pointing out to 
 him the folly of his committing crime and coming to prison to encounter such a 
 punishment. 
 
 4 1 04. Earl of Dndlei/.^ He does not volunteer to remark r 
 
 He does not ; generally speaking, if there is irritation, it is at the quantity of 
 the work that is exacted fi'om him. 
 
 4105. Chairman. ~\ Is it probable that if that irritation had existed the fact 
 must liave come to your knowledge ? 
 
 I should say so, undoubtedly ; but much depends upon the administration of 
 the prison. I do not encourage those things. I tell the prisoner, " There is 
 your work ; you must do it ; it is my duty to see that you do it ; and whUe you 
 perform your work properly, I have notliing to say to you." 
 
 4:06. Earl oi Romne}/^ WixQw you say the quantity of work that you exact 
 from him, do you mean to convey the idea that it is within your power to exact 
 what )'ou please, or do you mean that the men are aU employed on work as the 
 rules of the prison require r 
 
 Yes ; I ought to have said such work as the rules of the prison require from 
 them. That is what I meant by my answer. 
 
 4107. Earl of Diidlej/.^ Do not you think that a man in that rank of life has 
 veiy little concern as to whether the labour is producing anything or not ? 
 
 Very little indeed. 
 
 4108. The reasoning power does not go to that extent, you think, in persons 
 in that rank of life ? 
 
 I do not think it does. 
 
 4 109. Chairman.'] Is the crank in use in your prison r 
 
 We have but one separate crank in our prison. 
 
 4110. Have you a crank which is constructed with one continuous shaft r 
 Not one continuous shaft, because I have separated it so that some men 
 
 might be constantly employed at useful labour, others partly at useful labour 
 and partly at useless labour, and others again simply at punishment labour, which 
 is entirely useless. 
 
 4111. To what useful purposes do you apply the crank ? 
 
 Our useful labour is raising water for the service of the prison. 
 
 4112. Do you alternate the use of the crank with that of the treadwheel ? 
 I do occasionally. 
 
 4113. Do you not consider that that has a beneficial effect, as calling the 
 different muscles of the body into play, and suiting different classes of prisoners r 
 
 I should think it would l)e so as a matter of theory ; but as I have never 
 turned my attention much to that point, I am scarcely able to answer the 
 question. 
 
 41 14. Besides the crank you have spoken of, do you use the cellular crank ? 
 W^e have but one. 
 
 4115. Is that a model of it which 3'ou have brought with you ? 
 
 It is not a model of mine ; but it is a model of a great number which are in 
 use in the East Sussex prison. 
 
 4116. Are you satisfied with the cellular crank which you have in use at 
 present in your gaol ? 
 
 I am not satisfied with it ; I have seen a gi-eat number that I prefer to it. 
 
 4117. Is the principle of that crank the ordinary principle of the hard laboiu" 
 cellular crank ? 
 
 It is the principle, though not exactly so, of the railway break, it is a 
 break of metal against metal ; that is the friction. 
 
 411.S. There
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 387 
 
 41 18. There is this objection, is there not, to that crank, that by reason of If^-Linim, Esq. 
 the friction tlie metal expands, and consequently the work veiy often becomes j], ^~j' , gg 
 greater than it is intended the prisoner should do ? 
 
 That is the case with ni}' crank ; but I have procured this morning from an 
 engineer at ClerkenweU, a model of a crank which is very perfect in that respect ; 
 it has a sort of compensating balance, so that when the metals expand, relief is 
 given by the mechanism of the crank, 
 
 41 19. Wliose patent is that crank r 
 
 Mr. Underhay ; an engineer and brass founder in ClerkenweU. 
 
 4120. Will 3"ou be good enough to explain to the Committee in a few words 
 what the principle of this model which is upon the table is ? 
 
 In the cell the casing which you see here would be fixed over the crank, to 
 prevent the prisoner tampering with the mechanism of it. The important 
 principle of the crank is that it has a compensating s^jring, so that when the 
 metals expand reUef is given ; and if from fresh oiling it works too easily, then 
 it compensates the contrary way, and so keeps an equal fi-iction applied at all 
 times. 
 
 4121. Have 3'ou the jiower of weighting that crank to any extent ? 
 
 Yes, to any extent. The minimum power, however, is seven pounds ; but 
 it can be weighted to any extent as the maximum power. 
 
 4122. What gives that pressure of seven pounds ? 
 
 You will observe a hollow tube, and a thing called a plunger runs down it ; 
 water is placed in that tube, when the action of the plunger causes a resist- 
 ance of seven pounds in the working of the crank. 
 
 4123. Therefore, under all circumstances, the pressure which would act 
 against the jirisoner woidd he seven pounds ? 
 
 Not less than that. 
 
 41 -j.^. And you may augment it by putting on additional weight? 
 Yes. 
 
 41 25. In 3 our opinion, is the use of the cellular crank of value in a prison ? 
 I think it is a most valuable instrument of punishment. 
 
 4126. Would you appl3' it to productive purposes, or to non-productive 
 purposes / 
 
 I should appl3' it l;)oth ways ; or, rather, the cellular crank to non-productive 
 purposes ; but, for moral reasons, after I had punished a man b3' putting him to 
 the cellular crank working un])roductivel3', I should wish to put him to some- 
 thing useful. I should wish to i)ut him to grinding corn, or breaking stones, or 
 some other kind of hard labour which was nseful. 
 
 4 1 -'7. I observe that that model crank has an index in it, by which the 
 number of revolutions are recorded. Is it, in 3'our opinion, an important object 
 that that index should be kejit within sight of the prisoner in order that he may 
 see the register of the nimiber of turns which he performs r 
 
 Yes, certainly. I do not ^vish to irritate a i)risoner's mind in an3' wa}^ which 
 it is possible to avoid ; I should wish him to know the amount of labour that he 
 has performed. If it is not within his view, he would be in the dark, as it 
 were. 
 
 41 2 >. In the crank at present in use in the Petworth gaol, is there an index r 
 There is an index. 
 
 4129. Have you found any advantage from that f 
 
 Decidedl3', because it enables me to know whether a man has done the 
 quantity of labour I require him to perform. 
 
 41 30. Is that index within sight of the prisoner? 
 It is. 
 
 4131. Earl Cathcart.'] Are the Committee to understand that 3'ou have only 
 one cellular crank in use in 3'our prison ? 
 
 Only one. 
 
 (37. 13.) 3 c 2 4132. Then
 
 388 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 II'. Linton, Esq. 4< 32. Then your experience is limited to the use of that one crank ? 
 
 Except tliat I have seen it to a large extent in visiting: other prisons, and that 
 
 sotl) April 1863. I have conversed with my hrother gaolers upon this subject. 
 
 4133. CJi(drman.~\ Do jou make any use of the shot-drill? 
 We do not. 
 
 4 134. Would you see any objection to using it r 
 No, to a certain extent, I should not. 
 
 41 3.5. Do any of your prisoners pick oakum ? 
 
 No ; we have better employment for our prisoners than picking oakum ; but 
 oakum jjicking is very good emj)lo}'ment for those who are not ph3'sicall}' equal 
 to the treadwheel, or the crank, or for those who are not sentenced to hard 
 labour, as the commencement of their probationary punishment. 
 
 4136. Do you consider that picking oakum is hard labour or light labour, or 
 something intermecUate ? 
 
 It may be made very irksome labour ; I do not think it can ever be made 
 hard labour, because the man is on a geat all daj". 
 
 4137. You have stated that you have industrial occupation in 3'our prison ; 
 will you inform the Committee what it consists of.' 
 
 ^lop-making, which emlsraces picking, carding, and spinning wool, &c. ; mat 
 making ; ships' fender-making ; weaving canvas, sacking, and towelling ; 
 making corn and coal sacks, rick and wagon cloths ; weaving cocoa-nut mat- 
 ting, cider cloths, rugs and blankets for prison use, horse rugs ; rope-line and 
 t\^'ine-making ; also nets and halters, and such things as those. 
 
 /jiSS. Do you measure the work done by the piece or by task work? 
 I do not ; I require the prisoners to be moderately industrious, and I rarely 
 find it necessary to complain of a prisoner being indolent. 
 
 4130. If you have not task work, what clieck have 3'ou ujjon the prisoner? 
 I take an account every iMonday morning of the quantity of work he has per- 
 formcvd during the previous week. 
 
 4 140. Is there much supervision during the time he is occupied ? 
 
 There is not ; it is a general supervision ; the prisoners are visited occa- 
 sional!}'. 
 
 4141. Do 30U find it possible to estimate Avhat you consider to be a fair day's 
 work r 
 
 I do. 
 
 4142. Do you find that the men prefer industrial occupation to hard labour 
 at the crank and the treadwheel ? 
 
 Yes. generally ; there are exceptions. 
 
 4143. Earl of JD«r//c_y.] You stated, did you not, that there were a certain 
 numlx-r of ]n-isoners who were not sentenced to hard labour ? 
 
 There arc. 
 
 4144. A])out what proportion ? 
 
 The pro})ortion, since the alteration of the law two years since, has been very 
 small, because the magistrates have power now to connnit men to hard labour 
 for assavdts, and therefore the proportion has very greatly diminished. I could 
 not, at the present moment, give the proportion; but I could ascertain it by 
 refen-ing to my register. 
 
 414.5. C'ould you give the Connnittee anything like an idea of what it is, 
 because in some prisons it is so small that it is scarcely v^orth)' of notice i 
 
 I could not now. It • probably would not be more than two or three per 
 cent. It is very small since the alteration of the law two Mars since, at the time 
 of the passing of the Criminal Consohdation Statute. 
 
 -II4O. Therefore, of course, the general regulations of the prisons are for 
 those who are condemned to hard laboiu' ? 
 
 Now it is so, much more tlian formerly. At that time we had a great deal of 
 imprisonment without hard labour. 
 
 4 147. Do you consider that any hard labour carries out the sentence passed 
 upon the piisoner, except the treadwheel and the crank ? 
 
 I do,
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 389 
 
 I do, certainly ; if I a:ot a fair day's work out of a man I should consider that w Lmton, Esq. 
 I was carrying out his sentence. ' 
 
 4148. In one word, in industrial occupation or other things than the wheel 3oth April 1863. 
 and the crank, you consider that )'0U can get a hard day's lahour ? 
 
 I do. 
 
 4149. I thought you stated that you were content Avith a fair day's labour? 
 Yes ; that is what I should understand as carrjing out the sentence of hard 
 
 labour, because the limited diet of a prisoner would not enable him to perform 
 an unduly hard day's labour. 
 
 4150. Do 3'ou, in the exercise of 3'our disci-etion, consider that as soon as 
 a prisoner comes in, su})posing him to be able-bodied, }'ou may at once put him 
 only upon industrial occupation r 
 
 I do. 
 
 41 "51. And you think that that equally carries out the sentence upon him of 
 hard labour r 
 
 I think so, but much must be left to the discretion of the governor, because 
 some men are physically unfit to perforin hard labour. 
 
 4152. But with regard to men who are physicall}' fit for labour, what, in the 
 exercise of your discretion, do you consider to be the meaning of the sentence of 
 hard labour as passed in a court of law ? 
 
 If a man performs a fair day's labour, I consider that I am carrpng out the 
 sentence. 
 
 4153. You have stated to the Committee that your treadwheel is 32 feet 
 long, and that there are 15 men employed on it at a time, and 10 on relief; 
 that is 25 men ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4154. Tlie 25 men are not the average of those who in your gaol are con- 
 demned to hard labour, are they ? 
 
 No. 
 
 4155. You stated, chd you not, that you left 89 prisoners there this morning? 
 I did. 
 
 4156. \Miat would be the proportion of men to women ? 
 Seventy-nine men and ten women. 
 
 4 157. Out of those there are not above two or three that are not condemned 
 to hard labour, I presume ? 
 
 I doubt whether there is one convicted prisoner that is not condemned to hard 
 labour. 
 
 4158. Therefore, you have 79 men that have been sentenced to hard labour? 
 Yes. 
 
 41 59. And as a matter of course some of those have performed a certain por- 
 tion more or less long of their sentence ? 
 
 They have. 
 
 4160. Of those men how many do you state work at the treadwheel or crank, 
 if you have one, per diem ? 
 
 I can give the Committee a return of the emplo3'ments yesterday ; I make two 
 returns, one of the number in custod}% and another of their emplojment ; the 
 numbers yesterday were 79 males and 10 females, who were employed as 
 foUows : males, picking wool, three ; carchng and spinning wool, seven ; winchng 
 and twisting, one ; making mops, one ; making ships' fenders, two ; making door 
 mats, two ; dressing hemp, one ; employed in rope walk, one ; weaving towelHng, 
 one ; sewing sacks, one ; shoemaking, one ; tailoring, one ; at the treadwheel, 
 20 ; at the cranks, 24 ; at the crank in cell, one ; cleaning prison, four ; cooking 
 two ; unemplojTd, three ; discharged, three ; total unlocked, 79. Females at 
 laundry and needlework, 10. 
 
 4161. B}^ that list it appears that there are 20 upon the wheel, therefore the 
 wheel could be occui)ied during the whole of the working hours of your gaol, 
 because it would require 25 to till it ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 (37. 13.) 3 c 3 4162. Do
 
 390 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ]]'. Lintoii, Esq. 4162. Do you Say that you consider that the treadwheel power, which j-ou 
 
 have, together with the crank power, is sufficient for the average number of 
 
 3oih April 1863. prisoners sentenced to hard labour who are heahhy and capable of doing 
 
 work? 
 
 It is so in our gaol, connected v.ith the trade work ; the wheel and crank 
 power alone would not be sufficient. I could onh' employ 55, and I have now 
 75 con\-icted males in the prison. 
 
 4163. "\^liat is the principle on which you select the men to go to the 
 treadwheel ? 
 
 I take those who appear to me to be the worst characters, as it is the severest 
 labour, and those who are recommitted again and again. The worst characters 
 are generally sent to the treadwheel, and those who are i)h}'sically the best 
 fitted for it. 
 
 4164. Do ycu exercise that discretion throughout the whole of a man's 
 sentence ? 
 
 If I find a man failing in health, I remove him from the wheel. 
 
 41 6,5. If not, what do you do ? 
 
 If not, I do not keep a man at the wheel for too prolonged a period. 
 
 4166. After a certain time, if the man behaves well, do you remove him fi-oni 
 that primitive labour, and give him industrial occupation at lighter work r 
 
 Yes ; if his sentence is sufficiently long to justify my doing so. It takes some 
 time, of course, to teach a man. 
 
 4167. Are the cranks productive .- 
 
 Partiall}' so ; they are emplo}-ed for the purposes of raising water. 
 
 4165. That work is completed before the day is very far gone, is it not? 
 No ; and if it is, I keep them raising water, and the water runs off. 
 
 4169. You have 24 men at work upon the cranks, and 20 upon the tread- 
 wheel ; is that (juite as much of strictly penal labour as }'ou want for the 
 average number of prisoners which ^our gaol contains ? 
 
 It is. 
 
 4170-1. You stated that your recommendation would be that cellular cranks 
 should be unproductive ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4172. ^^^ly? 
 
 M}- feeling is, that during the earlier part of a man's sentence it should be 
 purel}^ punishment, to make him realise his position in prison, and the conse- 
 quences of his wrong-doing outside. 
 
 4173. Then you wish the Committee to understand, that you do think that 
 hard crank laboiu" without producing anj'thing is the hardest form of labour, 
 and that a man would feel it to be the hardest form r 
 
 Yes, and I think as a matter of discipline, it is decidedly beneficial. 
 
 4174. Your next step would be to take him from that, and put him to pro- 
 ductive penal labour as being the first step towards lightening his sentence ? 
 
 Yes, I should consider that was a step ujiwards in the wa}' of moral reform. 
 
 4' 75. And the third step would be industrial occupation : 
 It would 
 
 41 7i"i. As a rule, supposing that it could be made to pay, would not you rather 
 have all the labour that is performed in the gaol productive of something r 
 I would not, for the reason that I have stated. 
 
 4 1 77. Kiivl {){ JJiicic.l^ Is the productive treadwheel labour a lighter punish- 
 ment in point of labour, than the uni)roductive treadwheel labour .' 
 I think it ma}' be made equally severe. 
 
 41 78. Is that so, in yoiu- prison ? 
 
 No ; there is no distinction ; our wheel is not productive ; the cranks are 
 partially produc^tive, but the labour is ecjually severe with them as with the mi- 
 
 productive ones. 
 
 4179. You
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 391 
 
 4170. You stated that you would raise the prisoners from the unproductive W.Linton, Esq. 
 crank to the productive crank ? 
 
 Yes. ' 301I1 April 1863. 
 
 41 80. Is that practically so ? 
 
 It is not ])ractically so now ; I act according to what seems to me best ; I 
 mean that if there was an established rule, I should wish it to be so. 
 
 4181. Earl of D«f//f'j/.] You state that you have only one cellular crank; 
 does that produce nothing r 
 It produces nothing. 
 
 4 1 82. Earl of Difcie.^ You stated just now, that you did not think it had any 
 effect upon the mind of a prisoner, whether he was working at productive or un- 
 productive labour ! 
 
 Yes ; at jn-esent, I do not think it produces any effect in that respect in 
 Petworth Gaol, because I do not think that the men know whether their work is 
 valuable or not ; they may aU fancy they are working at productive labour. 
 
 4183. How would you make productive labour more pleasant to them than 
 unproductive ? 
 
 I would take care that all knew it ; I have brought with me a proposal for a 
 graduated system of prison discipline, and my vdsh would be to print it and hang 
 it up in every prisoner's cell. 
 
 4184. Earl of Rom net/. 1 With regard to labour on the treadwheel and other 
 labour, which do you reckon the most severe .'' 
 
 The treadwheel. 
 
 418.5. Supposing that one man is sentenced to four months' hard labour, and 
 another man to six months' hard labour, as the court or judge supposed to be 
 right accorcUng to the nature of the crime, it is in your power, is it not, acting 
 as you beUeve according to the law, to put the man sentenced for six months 
 into the factory and that description of hard labour, and to put the other man 
 on the treadwheel ? 
 
 At present, I beUeve, it is within my power. 
 
 41 86. Then, in point of fact, is it not the case that the man whom the Com-t 
 has sentenced to the severer punishment, because of the aggravation of his 
 crime, gets a less punishment than the man who is sentenced to four months' 
 imprisonment ? 
 
 Yes, it is, but I wish it to be otherwise ; only having the power, I exer- 
 cise it. 
 
 41 87. In such a case, as I have mentioned, it would be defeating the intention 
 of the Court in passing that sentence, would it not ? 
 
 The disciphnary officers have to consider many things ; they have to con- 
 sider the j)/iisiqife and the morale of a man ; some persons are very much 
 depressed in mind, and various circumstances arise which require our considera- 
 tion, in deciding upon how we should treat a man, and how we should employ 
 him. 
 
 4188. That is to say, leaving out of consideration the case of a man who 
 fi'om physical. inability could not be put upon the wheel, but assuming two men 
 of equal strength, do you consider that you have that power to which I have 
 referred ? 
 
 I consider that at the present moment I have the power to employ them in 
 any way that I think proper in the gaol. At present, there is no definition of 
 hard laljour. 
 
 4189. If the Court sentenced a man to hard labour, that clearly means the 
 hard labour which is provided in the particular gaol ; and you admit, do you 
 not, that woi'k in the factory and other work, is less hard labour than the tread- 
 wheel .- 
 
 Yes, I do. 
 
 4190. Sometimes, quite at your own discretion, you put a man to any des- 
 cription of labour, and another man to another, although both may be perfectly 
 capable of the hardest labour? 
 
 Quite so. 
 
 (37.1.3.) 3 c 4 4191- Uuke
 
 392 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. Linton, Esq. ^^()\. Duke of i?/f/;/wo«f/.] The question raised is this. Supposing there are 
 
 A T 8'" ^^^° ^^^^^^ sentenced, the one to four months' imprisonment and the other to six 
 
 30 1 pi I I 03. jjjQj-^^-j^g^ ^j^g \\\ia\ sentenced to six months heing the greater criminal of the 
 
 two, might you put the latter at the industrial labour, and the man sentenced to 
 
 four months at the hard labour ? 
 
 I might. 
 
 4192. But should you do so ? 
 
 I think it is very probable that I should in some instances ; because I should 
 think that the man imprisoned for four months, had better be kept at hard 
 jienal labour throughout the whole of his sentence, and the man sentenced to 
 six months' imprisonment I should prefer bringing other agencies to bear upon. 
 
 4193. Then it is possible that you Avould not jnit the man sentenced to six 
 months to hard lal)our ? 
 
 I should conunence with it ; I generally put them to the treadwheel at the 
 commencement, but not as an invariable rule. 
 
 4194. But, generally speaking, all prisoners sentenced to hard labour, and 
 physically able to go either ui)on the treadwheel or the crank, would go or 
 either the w^heel or the cranks at first ? 
 
 They would. 
 
 41 9,5. Earl of Dudh'ij^ But that is not the rule ? 
 
 That is not the rule, especially if it were a very prolonged sentence, because 
 I should not wish to debilitate a man. 
 
 41 96. Duke of Richmond^ But the generality of jirisoners sentenced to hard 
 labour would commence upon either one or other of those machines ? 
 
 Undoubtedly they would. 
 
 4197. Marquis of Sulisfjurj/.^ You state that in long sentences you would not 
 put a man upon the treadwheel for fear of debilitating him ; do }'ou find that 
 the treadwheel labour does debilitate prisoners ? 
 
 Undoubtedly. 
 
 4198. After what time ? 
 
 I think the process commences immediate!}' ; because, treadwheel labour 
 is very severe labour ; the men descend from it in a state of perspiration, ahnost 
 invariably. 
 
 4190. How do )'ou ascertain that a man is debihtated? 
 I judge by his appearance and manner. 
 
 4200. Do you weigh him ? 
 No, we do not. 
 
 4201. Earl of Rom/wj/.'] Is the labour upon your treadwheel very much more 
 severe than upon the ordinary treadwheel r 
 
 No, I do not recjuire' the man to work hand and foot invariabl)- ; I would not 
 do that ; Ijut I think our wheel is more severe than usual, from the circumstance 
 of its being in an enclosed apartment, where the atmosphere gets heated. 
 
 4202. Earl of Dudlej/.^ Is it enclosed over head ? 
 
 Yes, it is enclosed over head and all round ; in fact, I have sketched out a 
 plan which I intend to bring before the visiting justices for altering it. 
 
 4203. Earl of Rinii/ict/.l You mean, do you not, that )'our treadwheel is not 
 more severe, 1:)ut that it is more injurious in its effects ? 
 
 It is more injurious in its effects. 
 
 4204. ChdiniKui.^ Are tlie Committee, therefore, to understand from the 
 evidence which }'ou have given, that that which you designate as hard labour, 
 either at the (n-ank or at the treadwheel, should be, at all events, at the founda- 
 tion of any general ride of prison (Useipline. 
 
 I think so. 
 
 4205. At the same time you would make full allowance for good conduct in 
 prison, or extra effort on the part of a ])risoner ? 
 
 As a matter of theory I would not ; I should ])ut him for a fixed period at 
 hard labour with no hope of aii}- amelioration until that period had expired. 
 
 4206. Would
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 393 
 
 4206. Would you not admit of some encouragement by the prospect of '^^- Llniop, Eaj. 
 
 ultimate amelioration or relief ? „„,, , "^ ,.,- 
 T 11 1 1 11 3oih April li-.O'. 
 1 would, undoubtedly. . 
 
 4207. Have you considered that branch of the question ? 
 I have. 
 
 4208. Can you explain to the Committee in what way you would give 
 practical eifect to that prineii)le ? 
 
 If the Committee will permit me, I will read a proposal I have brought 
 with me for a graduated scale of discipMne, which I think would be well adapted 
 to ordinar}' prisons generally. 
 
 The Witness read f/ie foUowuiff document : 
 
 Propo-al for a graduated system of Prison Discipline, for use in ordinary Prisons, with 
 
 remarks explanatory of its details, &c. 
 
 Petwoktii Gaol and House of Correction. 
 Notice to Prisoners. 
 
 Prisoners are informed tliat, after conviction and sentence, they will be subjected to a 
 graduated scale of discipline, when (in order to develope persevering industry and good 
 conduct) their advance will depend upon favourable weekly reports, to be made on the 
 back of the " Register Tickets" suspended in their cells. 
 
 There will be four stages or gradations of discipline, and the shortest time to be passed 
 in each will be as follows : — 
 
 On First Conviction. 
 
 taTAGES. 
 
 First. 
 Second. 
 Third. 
 Fourth. 
 
 Prisoners sentenced to 
 
 Three Months, and 
 
 under 
 
 Six weeks. 
 Remainder of sentence. 
 
 Over Tliree and not 
 more tlian Six Months 
 
 Seven weeks. 
 
 Seven weeks. 
 
 Seven weeks. 
 
 Remainder of sentence. 
 
 Over Six Montlis 
 
 Eight weeks. 
 
 Eight weeks. 
 
 Eight weeks. 
 
 Remainder of sentence. 
 
 Second Convictions : Time passed in each stage doubled. 
 
 Third and subsequent Convictions : Time passed in each stage trebled. 
 
 Disciplinary Stages or Gradations. 
 
 Penal Class. 
 
 First Stage. — Party-coloured clothing, common exercise, if employed in cell; " guard" 
 and straw bsdcveiy alternate night. School, two hours weekly ; useless labour at cranks 
 or trcadwhcel and shot-drill. No lettei's or visits, and no books, except bible, prayer, 
 hymn, and one school-book. 
 
 Second Stage. — Clothing as above. Special exercise, two days weekly. Straw bed. 
 School, four hours weekly. Useful labour at corn-grinding, stone-breaking, water 
 pumping, and similar employments. Reading books. May send and receive one letter, or 
 receive one visit from friends. 
 
 Industrial Class. _• 
 
 Third Stage. — Plain clothing. Trade-work employ, exercise, bedding, and school as 
 above. Library books, letter or visit as above. 
 
 Fourth Stage. — Clothing, bedding, employment, and books as in last stage. School and 
 study two half-days weekly ; or, in lieu thereof, one additional hour's exercise daily. 
 Special exercise every other day. Letters and visit every alternate month. White 
 instead of brown bread, and eight ounces extra per diem. Prisoners for special prison 
 service (such as cooking, baking, &c.) to be selected from this class. 
 
 Note. — All prisoners will commence at the first or lowest stage ; and, after their 
 advance, may be put back one stage at a time for misconduct. 
 
 (By order.) 
 
 (37.13.) 3 D 4209. According
 
 394 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ir. Linton, Esq. 4209. According to this plan, there would be only two stages with regard to 
 _,. r~; 861 those who are sentenced to three months and under? 
 ^^______ Only two ; because, I think, short sentences should be made as severe as 
 
 possible. 
 
 4210. You would recommend six weeks for the first stage, and the remainder 
 of their sentence in the second stage ? 
 
 Yes ; on second convictions, the time passed in each stage is doubled. 
 
 42 I 1. Consequently, in the case of a prisoner sentenced to three months and 
 under, instead of having six weeks in the first stage, he would have 12 
 weeks ? 
 
 Yes, he would have 1 2 weeks under the severest punishment that the rules of 
 the prison authorised. 
 
 42 1 J. And in the case of a prisoner sentenced to over three months and under 
 six months, he would have 14 weeks, instead of seven, upon the second con\ic- 
 tion ; and in the second stage he would again have 14 weeks ; and in the third 
 stage he would again have 14 weeks, in lieu of seven; and in the case of a 
 prisoner sentenced to over six months, instead of having eight w'eeks in the first 
 three stages, he w^ould have 1 6 weeks ? 
 
 That is so ; it is in order to make the punishment progressively severer for 
 repeated convictions. Upon the third and subsequent convictions, the time 
 passed in each stage should be trebled. I go upon the principle of making the 
 punishment severer each time, up to a given jjoint. 
 
 4213. Will you now state in what way you would distinguish those classes? 
 
 I have endeavoured to distinguish them in this way : " Disciplinary stages, 
 or gradations. Penal class: 1st stage; Party-coloured clothing; common 
 exercise, if emplo}'ed in cell. Guard and straw bed every alternate night. 
 School, two hours weekly. Useless labour at cranks or treadwheel, and shot 
 drill. No letters or visits, and no books except bibles, prayer, h3'mn, and one 
 school-book." The second stage would be still in the penal class. " 2d stage. 
 Clothing as above. Special exercise two days weekly ; straw bed ; school, four 
 hours weekly ; useful labour at corn-grinchng, stone-breaking, water-pumping, 
 and similar employments : reading booI<s : may send and receive one letter, or 
 receive one visit from friends," while in that stage. Then I should promote 
 them to the industrial class. The third stage would be, the first in the indus- 
 trial class. I should dress them in plain clothing, employ them at trade-work, 
 and give them exercise, bedding, and school as in the second stage ; they should 
 also have the use of Ubrary books, and receive one letter or one visit from 
 friends while they were passing through that stage. Then they would be pro- 
 moted to the fourth stage. There the clothing, bedding, emplojment and 
 books would be as in the last stage. School and study, two half-days weekly, 
 or, in lieu thereof, they should have one additional hours exercise daily ; special 
 exercise every other day ; and should receive letters and visits every alternate 
 month ; and have white bread instead of brown, and eight ounces extra per 
 diem. Prisoners for special prison service, such as cooking, baking, &c., would 
 be selected fi'om this class. And there is a foot-note to this : "'juI jjrisoners 
 will commence at the first or lowest stage ; and after their advance, may be 
 put back one stage at a time for misconduct." That would be the notice that 
 I would sus])end in every prisoner's cell. 
 
 4214. When you put back a jirisoner to the stage immediately preceding, 
 would you propose that he slioukl work out his full time again in that stage ? 
 
 Yes. I have not turned my attention muc^h to this \y.ivt of the subject, but 
 I think, if he is put back, he should work the full time in the precetliug stage ; 
 he would be the less likely to offend again. 
 
 4215. The Committee understand, therefore, that your proposal is, that there 
 should be two classes, one a ])enal class, and the other an industrial class ; that 
 the penal class should contain two stages, and the industrial class two stages ; 
 that the basis of the penal class should l)e ])unishment rising from unjjroduc- 
 tive labour to productive labour ; and that the industrial class should be a grada 
 tion of encouragements and rewards for good conduct r 
 
 Yes ; of jirison amelioration. I ha^e written a few exi)lanatory remarks, if 
 the Committee will permit me to read them : " This proposal is put forward 
 
 more
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 395 
 
 more as a starting-point for consideration than for any inherent mei-it it ma}^ ff- Linton, Esq. 
 possess. The subject is a new one in common pris^ons, and requires anxious — — 
 
 and careful consideration to elaborate, and practical experience to finally decide." ^ ° ' P " ^ ^' 
 I do not think that we can decide without first testing the thing. " It com- 
 mences with the severest discipline, I believe, possible to succeed, hut has a 
 continuous element of encouragement (in the weekly reports and j^eriodical promo- 
 tions) which mil buoy up the prisoner s mind and stimulate his energies to attain 
 the privileges of the higher classes ; these 'privileges' may appear insignificant to 
 free men, but will be regarded as of value and importance by those confined to 
 the gloom and monotony of a prison cell. To prevent too great an amount of 
 priutmg or reading (in connexion with this scheme), there could be printed on 
 one sheet a very short abstract of general rules for the information and guidance 
 of prisoners, then graduated scales, and last dietaries." I think every prisoner 
 ought to know what he should receive in the way of food, and if it is printed on 
 one sheet of paper, it is all there compact before him. 
 
 4216. Earl of DikUi'j/.'] With regard to all those scales to be hung up in the 
 cell, and also with regard to the bible, prayer-book, hymn-book, and so forth, 
 nine-tenths of the prisoners cannot read, can they ? 
 
 They can. 
 
 4217. Is it so large an average as nine-tenths ? 
 
 No ; I should say that the majority of the prisoners can read in our part of 
 the country. I insert in tlie register of every prisoner, on his admission, 
 whether he can read or write or not. 
 
 42 1 8. Have most of them been indebted to your prison for a knowledge of 
 reading and writing ? 
 
 Certainly not ; the great mass of prisoners that come to me are casual 
 offenders ; they come once, and I do not see them again. 
 
 4219. Earl Ca f heart. 1 It would appear fi'om the judicial statistics for 1861, 
 that one-third of the prisoners in Petworth Gaol can neither read nor write ; do 
 you think that is correct 1 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4220. Ckairmrni.^ Will j'ou proceed with the proposal which you were read- 
 ing to the Committee ? 
 
 I fiu-ther propose, " That every prisoner may at once understand his position 
 and duties, an officer should be told off daily to assemble those newlj^ received, 
 and read and explain such rules and leacling points of discipline. Register 
 tickets should be on stout paper, or common cardboard, and ruled on back as 
 required. Every Monday they would be produced (with week's work, or accom- 
 panied by warder's report) to the governor, and necessary endorsement made 
 thereon. When the governor is unable to attend to this duty, it should be 
 done by the chief warder, but by no other officer. Endorsements (as to conduct, 
 &c.) in one or other of the following words : ' Good,' ' very good,' ' incUflferent,' 
 'bad,' ' very bad; ' and the number of ' good' reports, or their equivalent, must 
 correspond wth the number of weeks in the scale before promotion. In the 
 above scheme, ' common exercise ' means walking and running in Indian file ; 
 ' special exercise,' a sort of drill (such as ' extensive motions,' marking time, 
 &c.), which can be performed upon fixed points, allowing prisoners to stand 
 about five yards apart each way, and which is more healthful than mere walk- 
 ing. ' Reading ' books are to be understood as those of a religious and scholastic 
 description. ' Library ' books, as suitable secular works. Prisoners not sen- 
 tenced to ' hard labour ' could be allowed the option of working at nseful labour, 
 instead of picking oakum (by weight) while in ' the penal class.' " 
 
 4221. Chairman.'] This graduated scale which you have proposied to the Com- 
 mittee, is simply framed upon what you consider would be a desirable change ? 
 
 It is ph)'sical discipline first, and moral discipline to follow where the deten- 
 tion was sufficiently prolonged. 
 
 4222. Have you any system of marks at present in force in your prison ? 
 No. 
 
 4223. Have you any system, which at all represents this scheme of encom'age- 
 ment, in your prison ? 
 
 We have not. 
 
 (37.13.) 3 D 2 4224. Why
 
 390 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 li: L-utun.Esq. 4224. A\'hy have you never attempted to cany out such scheme ? 
 30th A^i863. ^ ^^^'^ "°* ^^^^ justified in doing anything of the kind. 
 
 4^2,5. But in your opinion, this would be a desirable change ? 
 
 I think it would. 
 
 42 2G. Marquess of SaIishuri/.~] The expense of feeding prisoners at Petworth 
 Gaol appears to be considerably higher than at Lewes ; that is to say, 1 /. per 
 annum more. Is there an}- reason for that ; is your diet fixed by the Secretary 
 of State r 
 
 It is a dietary that has been approved of by the Secretary of State. 
 
 4227. Is it a general approval, or is it a special dietary which was submitted 
 to him ? 
 
 A special approval. 
 
 4228. Is it the one suggested by the Secretary of State, or is it a special 
 dietary proposed by the Justices ? 
 
 It is a special dietary proposed by the Visiting Justices, and approved by the 
 Secretary of State. 
 
 4229. Have you a copy of it ? 
 
 Yes, I have ; I have brought a copy of the prison rules, and wiU put it in 
 (^deliver in ff in the same.) 
 
 4230. How many classes of dietary have you ? 
 
 There are five classes, exclusive of the punishment classes. 
 
 4231. Is it pretty nearly the same as that suggested by the Secretary of 
 State"? 
 
 I think it is more severe in some respects, and less severe in others. It is 
 an-anged for daily dietaries : " Class 1 . For terms not exceeding seven days — 
 breakfast, eight ounces of bread; dinner, one pint of gruel ; supper, eight ounces of 
 bread. Class 2. For terms exceeding seven, and not more than 21 days — break- 
 fast, eight ounces of bread and one pint of gruel ; dinner, eight ounces of bread ; 
 supper, same as breakfast. Class 3. Prisoners employed at hard labour for terms 
 exceeding 21 da}s, and not more than two months, and prisoners not emplo}ed 
 at hard labour for terms exceeding 21 da3S, and not more than three months — 
 breakfast, eight ovmces of bread and one pint of gruel ; dinner, Monday, Wednes- 
 da}-, and Fi'ida}', one pint of soup and eight ounces of bread ; Sunday, Tuesday, 
 Thursday, Saturday, one pound of potatoes and eight ounces of bread ; supper, 
 same as breakfast. Class 4. Second-class debtors, and prisoners for trial, on remand, 
 and for want of sureties : also convicted prisoners employed at hard laboiu* for 
 terms exceeding two and not more than four months, and prisoners not 
 employed at hard labour for terms exceeding three months — breakfast, eight 
 ounces of bread and one i)int of gruel ; dinner, Monday, Wechiesdaj', and Friday, 
 one pint of soup and eight ounces of bread ; Sunda)', Tuesda}-, Thursday, and Satur- 
 da}-, four ounces of meat with bone, and (before being cooked) half-a-pound of 
 potatoes, and eight ounces of bread ; supper, same as breakfast. Class 5. Con\icted 
 male prisoners employed at hard labour, for terms exceeding four months — 
 breakfast, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, one pint of cocoa or milk, and eight 
 ounces of bread ; on other days, one pint of gruel and eight ounces of bread ; 
 dinner, Monday, Wednesday, and Frida}', one pint of sou]), half-a-pound of potatoes, 
 and eight ounces of bread ; Sunda}', Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, six ounces of 
 meat with bone, and (before being cooked) one pound of potatoes and eight ounces 
 of l)read ; supper, one pint of gruel, and eight ounces of bread. Class (5. Pi'isoners 
 under punishment for not exceeding three days, one pound of bread per diem. 
 Class 7. Prisoners under ])unishnient, jjursuant to section 42 of the Gaol Act ; 
 breakfast, one ])int of gi'uel, and eight ounces of bread ; dinner, eight ounces of 
 bread ; supjjcr, same as breakfast. Female prisoners, and boys of not more than 
 1 4 years of age, to have the diet of the first four classes above, except in the article 
 of bread, of which they are to have six ounces per meal instead of eight ounces." 
 The ingredients of the soup, gruel, and cocoa are as follows : " The soup to contain, 
 per pint, four ounces of uncooked meat (with bone), three ounces of jjotatoes, one 
 ounce of rice, and one ounce of onions, a seasoning of pei)per and salt, and to 
 be made from the liquor in which the meat was boiled on the preceding day. 
 The gruel to contain, per ])int, two ounces of Scotch oatmeal, and to be sweetened 
 every alternate day with three-quarters of an ounce of molasses ; on other 
 
 days
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 397 
 
 days to be seasoned with salt. The cocoa to contain, per pint, one ounce of. '^- -^"''ow, Esq. 
 cocoa nibs, three-quarters of an ounce of molasses, and two ounces of milk." j^ April 1 86q 
 
 423?. That accounts, does it not, for the increased higher expense of the — 
 
 dietary in j^our gaol ? 
 I think it does. 
 
 4233. Earl of Du(Uei/.'\ Do you give the hard-labour diet to those who are 
 employed in industrial occupation r 
 
 I do. 
 
 4234. Do not j'ou know that the hard-labour scale was made out on purpose 
 to meet the requirements of loss of strength arising from hard labour on the 
 wheel or crank ? 
 
 I do not find our scales any too high for the prisoners. 
 
 423.5. Do you think that cocoa nibs are necessary to be given to prisoners, or 
 cocoa at all? 
 
 I think that a change of diet for prolonged periods is very essential. 
 
 4236. Would you say " yes " or " no " whether you think cocoa is necessary? 
 I do, if I am to give a simple answer to the question in that form. 
 
 4237. Do you not think cocoa is a luxur}'? 
 
 I think it is essential. I think there should be a change ; men's stomachs 
 pall, and they are unable to take the food if it is continuously of one kind. 
 
 4238. Does not the workman in a state of liberty have the same diet, without 
 any change whatever, the whole }'ear round ? 
 
 I do not think you can (h'aw any parallel between the two, because the cir- 
 cumstances of the prisoner are so entirely different fi'om those of the workman 
 at large ; the latter has stimulants, and narcotics, and spirits, and he has not the 
 very gi-eat confinement that the prisoner is always labouring under. 
 
 4239. Putting the moral consideration of confinement out of the question, do 
 you not consider that the labour itself is about as healthy a system as could be 
 devised for a man ? 
 
 Yes ; but in prison, I think, hard labour is very debilitating. 
 
 4240. There can only be one debihtating element, which is that of the mind, 
 the sense of restricted freedom ? 
 
 No ; I think that there is physical debilitation constantly going on. 
 
 424 1 . WiU }'ou tell the Committee whether jou think that any amount of 
 hard labour at the crank or treadwheel amounts to anything like the hard 
 labour that is done by a healthy man out of doors ? 
 
 I think decidedly it does ; indeed, I think it is greater. I have stout, strong 
 navvies committed to iny gaol, and I find that they lose flesh, and very soon get 
 reduced in strength, when I put them to the treadwheel, and I find it neces- 
 sary after a time to remove them from it. 
 
 4242. Chairman?^ You stated that you do not weigh them ; how do you know 
 that they lose flesh .' 
 
 I can very soon judge by my sight. I see a man's arms get less, and he gets 
 pale, and I am quite positive from my own judgment that he loses flesh fast. 
 
 4243. Earl of nudity.'] Do you consider, so far as good health is concerned, 
 that it is absolutel}' necessary that a man should weigh exactly the same when 
 he goes out of the prison as he does when he comes in ? 
 
 Certainly not, for health ; but I think he should not be reduced too low. 
 
 4244. Lord Wodcltoxse.'] Are you not sur})rised to hear that the medical 
 officer of one of the largest prisons has stated that a prisoner can exist for 
 several months on oatmeal and potatoes exclusively ? 
 
 I should be surprised to hear such a statement if the prisoner were kept to 
 hard labour. 
 
 4245. But if kept to hard labour }'ou would not think it possible ? 
 I should doubt it myself. 
 
 4 246. Earl of Dudley.'] Do not you think that the quantity of cereals wiU 
 make up for the loss of meat diet ? 
 
 (37. 13.) 3 D 3 That
 
 308 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 //'. Linton, Esq. That is more a medical question than a disciplinary one, but I should think 
 . r~T Of;, iiot. 1 think that meat is essential ; in certain instances in our dietaries, for three 
 Aveeks and under, we do not give any meat whatever. 
 
 4247. Do }'ou propose wdth that modified system of prison discipline, a sketch 
 of which A'ou have put in, to give also a conformably modified diet ? 
 
 No. I think that a man should commence with the diet that it is intended to 
 give him throughout, except as a reward for good conduct, at a given period ; for 
 you generally find that more or less they fail, and require medical indulgences 
 at a certain time. I should wish to give him an increased diet as a matter of 
 right rather than as a medical indulgence. 
 
 4248. Therefore, if a man is sent to you, we will say for 21 days (and that is 
 to be a short sentence, which is to be carried out entirely on the wheel, accord- 
 ing to your proposal), do you intend to gi-»'e him the hard-labour diet ? 
 
 I should give him Class 2, which is a very low diet. 
 
 4249. "\Miat diet do you propose to give at the diiferent periods for which you 
 have told us you intend to keep the prisoner at hard labour r 
 
 I would have a graduated scale ; according to a man's sentence so should be 
 his diet. 
 
 4250. There are now the lowest, the 2d, the 3d, the 4th, and the 5th scales of 
 diet? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4251 . You do begin upon that ? 
 Yes, I begin upon that. 
 
 4252. But as you propose, according to your system, to put a man upon hard 
 labour at once as a rule in a gaol for all terms, whether short or long, but in the 
 case of the longer ones to be modified by degrees, do you intend that all should 
 begin at the lowest point of diet ? 
 
 No ; it shovdd be a graduated diet, according to the sentence. If a man was 
 sentenced to a prolonged period, he should commence at once with the proper 
 class of cUet, which is the highest. 
 
 4253. Do not you see that that is a set-off to your proposed system of hard 
 labour in your gaol ; you are going to make the rate more absolute in the gaol 
 than it has been before, and to give hard labour to the men Avhen they come in, 
 and \o\\ propose to modify that by degrees ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4254. But per contra you are going to give the men the fuU diet that he is 
 entitled to for hard labour as soon as he begins at that hard labour, so that the 
 punishment of a low diet for 2 1 days, or even for a longer time, is done away 
 with, which is a set-oif to j'our hard labour ? 
 
 It is done upon this principle, that the short sentences shall be made as severe 
 as possible, and that is why these dietaries have been so graduated. When a 
 man comes in for six months, I give him the fifth class of chet at once ; he does 
 not commence with the lower diet, otherwise we should have that man in the 
 surgeon's hands innnediately. 
 
 42.55. Tliat is your belief? 
 
 I am certain of it ; it wovdd reduce the strongest man to such an extent that 
 he could not go through a prolonged period, and perform the work required of 
 him without failing. 
 
 42.56. You are proposing to make hard labour the rule of yoiu* gaol ; but instead 
 of beginning, as you now do, with the lowest scales of diet, you are going to give 
 at once the hard-labour diet ? 
 
 ^Ve do not begin now with the lowest scale ; if a man comes in upon a 
 sentence of six months, he commences with the fifth class of diet, and continues 
 on that throxighout. 
 
 42;)7. Putting the question of labour on one side for a moment, do you not 
 think that it would ])e advisable that every prisoner who comes in, whatever his 
 term, should Ix'gin with the lowest scale, and go on to the other stages of 
 diet r 
 
 Certainl)- not ; I should be ver}' sorr)' to see that required. 
 
 4258. Do
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON" DISCIPLINE. 399 
 
 4-258. Do you not think that if there Avas a loss of weight in the first in- W. Linton, Esq. 
 stanee, which is to be attributed to many things besides tlie prison discipline, — - 
 
 such as the loss of liberty, the great change of the way in which the man has ^ °^ '^P ''' '^^3- 
 liyed (because in that rank of life there is a great deal of eating and diinking, 
 wheneyer they haye the means, which of course tends to keej) up the strength 
 of a man, and the loss of which causes that depression), all that would be 
 rajjidly re-established as the man went on fi-om degree to degree of diet ? 
 
 I think not ; I think that there are yarious considerations wrapped up in these 
 questions, moral and mental as well as physical. 
 
 4259. Would you tell the Committee what the number of }'our recommittals 
 are ? 
 
 I cannot ; I haye not before me the list, and I do not thiidc that an}' list of 
 recommittals would be at aU a fair test of the effect of our disciphne, because 
 West Sussex is peculiarly circumstanced at i)resent ; there ai'e a great niunber 
 of tramps passing through, attracted by the fortification works going on at 
 Portsmouth and other public works ; they get connnitted to me, and I am very 
 particular in tracing their antecedents when I can ; many of them haye been in 
 prison again and again, but they haye not been recommitted to Petworth Gaol. 
 
 4260. Do you know, of your own knowledge, that a great number of the pri- 
 fioners who haye served their time in )'our gaol have gone into honest employ- 
 ment afterwards ? 
 
 Yes, I do. 
 
 4261. Do }'0U know an}- who have been twice or more m your gaol that have 
 done the same thing ? 
 
 Yes, I know that they have gone to hard honest emplojTnent subsequently. 
 
 4202. When would you say that, as a rule, the professional thief or jn-ofes- 
 sional convict begins ; would it be after the second offence ? 
 
 I can hardly answer that question ; I do not think that you find in the rural 
 districts many professional thieves, vmless they come by chance there ; that 
 applies more to towns, and large towns especially. 
 
 4263. Earl Cathcart.l It appears from the judicial statistics of 1861, with 
 regard to recommittals to your prison, that about one-third of the whole number 
 are recommitted ; are those statistics probably coiTcct ? 
 
 No doubt they are. 
 
 4:264. It appears, by the judicial statistics of 1861, that the total commitments 
 were 382, and 114 were recommittals ; is that so ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4.26.5. These figures are probably taken from your own returns? 
 Yes, they are ; but that does not apply to Petworth ; I endeavoured a few 
 minutes since to assign a reason for that. 
 
 4266. Earl of 2);f<//ey.] Would you separate the prisoners any further than 
 you do at present ? 
 
 No, I do not wish to go any further. 
 
 4267. I mean, would you extend it to separation in the chapel ? 
 
 No. 
 
 4268. Would you go so far as to require them to wear masks, to prevent re- 
 cognition ? 
 
 No. I learnt the discipline at Pentonville, and there it was carried out to the 
 full extent ; but I do not consider it at all necessary in ordinary prisons, what- 
 ever it may be in convict prisons. 
 
 4269. Would you be glad to have cranks in aU your cells, so that }ou might 
 be able to put the prisoners to work on the separate system ? 
 
 Not in all of them ; I should wish to have a certain number (perhaps 30 per 
 cent, ma}' be the proportion) that 1 should like to be able to put to work 
 sepai-ately. 
 
 4270. Viscount Everslei/.l Would it not be more desirable to have the cranks 
 in a separate shed in the open air r 
 
 (37.13.) 3 D 4 I thudc
 
 400 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ir. Linton, Esq. I think that depends much upon the situation of the prison: if it is on an 
 •~'~ elevated site, and buildings are simply arranged, and a good system of venti- 
 
 3otli April 1863. ^j^j-Jqj^ (^>f^j^ ]3P carried out, it is much better to have them in the cells ; but if the 
 prison were a mass of buildings, impeding ventilation, and on a low^ site, sur- 
 rounded perhaps by high buildings outside, I should prefer taking the men out 
 of their cells for the purpose of performing hard work such as crank labour. 
 
 4271. You think that no inconvenience could arise from employing a pri- 
 soner at hard labour in his own cell ? 
 
 I should prefer it, if the ventilation was good, as it not only operates to keep 
 the men more under control, but is an advantage on the ground of economy 
 and simplicity. 
 
 4272. Earl of Diidh'j/.] Your idea is that this is the gi-eatest punishment you 
 can inflict upon a man, that it is to be separate confinement ; that it is to be the 
 crank labour, which you can make as hard as you like already ; that the pri- 
 soner is to be without even seeing the others, and that his labour is to be non- 
 productive ; you propose that that shall be the first form of your punish- 
 ment ? 
 
 Yes ; I think that that is as severe a punishment as you can hope to carry 
 out successfully. 
 
 4273. Lord Wodelionse.'l When you say that you think there would be no in- 
 convenience from the em})loyinent of prisoners at crank labour in their own 
 cells, do you say that from any practical experience of such a system ? 
 
 Yes, to. some extent ; I have been in various prisons, and have observed the 
 state of the cells, and to a Hmited extent I have it in my own prison. 
 
 4274. You have not found that any inconvenience to the health of the 
 prisoners has arisen fi'om it ? 
 
 No ; I think I said before, that if there is a good system of ventilation, I do 
 not think that much harm can arise. 
 
 4275. Marquess of SiiIisbnr>/.'\ Do you find any difficulty in producing evi- 
 dence of the previous convictions of prisoners who are tried ? 
 
 No great chfficulty, except that the sessions come simultaneously all over 
 England, and very often it is difficidt to spare an officer for the purpose. 
 
 4276. Do you find that the allowances are sufficient ? 
 
 I should not like to make a remark against them, because I have never per- 
 sonally found any difficulty on that point ; I remember an instance not long- 
 since in which I sent the chief warder to identify a man, and when he came back 
 I asked him what allowances they gave him, and he told me he was 3 s. out of 
 pocket by the journey. 
 
 4277. Chairman.'] Have you ever considered the expediency of identifjing 
 previouslj^-convicted prisoners, either by means of photography or by affixing 
 any particular mark upon them ? 
 
 I think photography most useful at the headquarters of the police ; and 
 I should wish to have all criminals who are sentenced to penal servitude 
 branded the same as they brand bad characters in the Army ; they brand them 
 now with the letters B. C. I have had a great number of them in the prison 
 so branded, and I should like to have convicts sentenced to penal servitude 
 branded with the letters P. S., but not in the case of other prisoners. 
 
 4278. Earl Cathcart.~\ When you use the term branded, you mean indelibly 
 marked, do }ou not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4279. Chairman.] Have you ever found the advantage of those marks with 
 regard to military offenders who may have come into tlie prison ? 
 
 No, I have not ; but 1 frequently get men wlio I am morally certain are 
 returned convicts ; their reticence, however, is so great, that it is impossible 
 for me to trace their convic^tions or their antecedents, so as to prove it. 
 
 4280. Do you ajiply that suggestion to penal-servitude men or to persons 
 convicted a second time ? 
 
 I should appl}- it to penal-sen-itude men only. 
 
 4281. With
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 401 
 
 4281. With regard to prison punishments, what are those forms which are ^^- Linton, E^q. 
 most common in your prison ? 30th a^\ i8(;.3. 
 
 Stoppage of diet and confinement in a hght or dark refractory cell. . 
 
 4282. Do you find that the stoppage of diet has a tendency to irritate the 
 prisoners ? 
 
 No, I do not. • 
 
 4283. Do you ever make use of corporal punishment ? 
 Very rarely. 
 
 42 84. Wlienever you have used it, has it been for serious offences? 
 It has been for repeated acts of misconduct. 
 
 4285. Have you found it effective ? 
 Very. 
 
 4286. You would consequently beunwiUing to part with the power of making 
 use, of coqjoral punishment ? 
 
 Most unwilhng. I tliink it is a most useful punishment. 
 
 4287. Have you ever known it ineffective ? 
 Only in one instance. 
 
 4288. Only in one instance during the whole course of your experience as a 
 governor ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4289. Have you had any experience of Discharged Prisoners Aid Societies? 
 I have not. 
 
 4290. Are you of opinion, from what you know of them indirectly, that the 
 operation of them is beneficial ? 
 
 I think it is mostly so, from what I have learned. 
 
 4291. Marquess oi SalisburT/.'] Is there any particular scale of allowance 
 made to prisoners to reach their homes after the expiration of their sentence in 
 your gaol ? 
 
 No ; the magistrates leave it to me to act according to circumstances in 
 giving the prisoner a httle help on his discharge ; any special case I should 
 bring under their notice, and they would decide upon it. 
 
 4292. Is it generally a sufficient sum to carry them to their homes ? 
 
 Not in all cases. I should not think that desirable. I give the man a little 
 to help him on his way. If a prisoner is from London, as many of them are, I 
 usually give him 1 5. or 1 s. 6 d. and his day's provisions. I know that he can 
 reach London in two days. 
 
 4293. Chainnan.'] Some of the witnesses who have given evidence before this 
 Committee have stated that, in their opinion it would be a desirable change to 
 send the prisoners to chapel three times instead of six during the week, and 
 twice on Sunday ; is that your opinion also ? 
 
 Certainly ; I should diminish it rather beyond that ; I think twice in the 
 week and twice on Sunday would be quite sufficient. 
 
 4294. Do you entertain that opinion from the belief that the senice becomes 
 monotonous to the in-isoners, and that the whole thing is a matter of routine ? 
 
 I think so, decidedly. 
 
 4295. Do you believe that the prisoners would take a greater interest in the 
 service if the number of times at which attendance were required were lessened ? 
 
 I do. 
 
 429(). Lord Wodchouse^ Do you see any objection to giving the prisoners 
 who have earned money by their own industry during the time that they have 
 been in prison some portion of it, as a gratuity, on their going out ? 
 
 I should prefer giving them the gratuity independently of any prison labour. 
 
 4207. When a m:in has behaved well, and also earned money by his labour, 
 should you see any objection to giving him a portion of that money on leaving 
 the prison ? 
 
 (37. 13.) 3 E I should
 
 402 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 JF. Linton, Eeq. I should prefer doing that through the agency of the Discharged Prisoners Aid 
 Societies. 
 
 30th April 1 8G3. 
 
 4298. Earl of Romu<'i/.~\ With regard to the chapel and the services, what 
 services are performed now in the chapel every day ? 
 
 Two services on Sunday, and every day prayers and a portion of Scripture ; 
 we use a selection of the pra}%rs, not the entire service. 
 
 42g9. \Miat time does that occupy ? 
 Half an hour. 
 
 4300. If that time were shortened, so that it occupied ten minutes or a 
 quarter of an hour, would you prefer that, or ha-ving the service as it is now, 
 and the man attending it t\vice a week ? 
 
 I would rather prolong the service, but I would not have it daily ; it should 
 not come as a matter of course every morning, so that after a while it became 
 common, and considered a mere matter of routine. 
 
 4301. Earl of Diidlcj/.'l Do you not think that the same argument would 
 ap])l\' to it when the day for chapel came round r 
 
 I do not. 
 
 4302. Do not }'ou think that if you have failed to produce that state of mind 
 in a prisoner which would be benefited by having daily chapel, it would be 
 very much the same thing whenever it occurred, except on Sunday ? 
 
 No, because it would not be so common ; it would rather tend to exalt the 
 services of the chapel, I think ; the prisoners now look upon it as a matter of 
 routine, going to chapel before they go to labour, and it is a very unnatural 
 state of things to them, because the class from whom criminals are ordinarily 
 drawn are quite unable to attend a place of worship during the week-days. 
 
 4303-4. F.ar\ of Rom nej/.~\ "\^^^len you say that the service occupies half an 
 hour, do you mean the actual time in chapel, or does it include the time 
 occupied in going to and froni chapel ? 
 
 The time in chapel at Petworth occupies probably twenty minutes. 
 
 43(5.5. Chairman.~\ Have you any fiu-ther suggestion to offer to the Com- 
 mittee ? 
 
 I think that Sunday evening is a period of gi'eat restlessness with 
 prisoners generall}', and I should wish the evening service to be really in the 
 evening instead of the afternoon, as is generally the case now. To do that, the 
 statute would require some amendment. 
 
 4306. ^larcjuess of Salisbun/.l Can you refer to the statute on that point ? 
 The 4th of George IV., chapter G4, section 30, says this : " And be it further 
 
 enacted, that every such chaplain shall on every Sunday, and on Christmas-day 
 and Good Friday, perform the appointed morning and evening services of the 
 Church of England, and preach at such time or times between the hours of nine 
 and tive of the day as shall be required by the rules and regidations to be made 
 as directed by the Act." 
 
 4307. Earl of Diidh'ij.'] Do you think that such an alteration as you recom- 
 mend would lead to very great objection on the part of the chaplains ? 
 
 I think not. 
 
 4308. At what time of the day are your ser\'ices held ? 
 
 Our services on Sunday arc at half-past eight in the morning and half-past 
 three in the afternoon, and on week-dajs at nine o'clock. 
 
 4309. Chairman.] You would propose that it should ])e left optional with the 
 auth()riti(^s of each gaol to fix the service at the time which is most convenient ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 43 10. Have you any suggestion to make with regard to the books for the use 
 of the prisoners ? 
 
 I think a revision of the statute is desirable upon that point. The 2d and 
 3d of Victoria, chapter .'ie, section 6, rule 8, says : " No books or jmnted papers 
 shall be admitted into any prison l)ut those which shall be chosen b}- the chaplain 
 
 for
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 403 
 
 for the use of prisoners belongiug to the Estabhshed Church, and by the visiting W. Linton, Eig. 
 
 justices for the use of the other prisonei-s." There is an a])peal to the Bishop in 
 
 case of difference of opinion. I thhik that equal power should be given to the 3oth April i860. 
 visiting justices to select books to be read by the prisoners. ' 
 
 43 1 1 . On what ground ? 
 
 I have seen a novel in a prisoner's cell before now. 
 
 4312. Was that inti-oduced by the chaplain? 
 
 I cannot say how it was introduced, but I have seen a popular novel in a 
 prisoner's possession ; and it struck me at the time that that seemed to show 
 that some alteration was necessary in the way of providing books for the prison. 
 I do not know who introduced it, nor do I remember at the moment in what 
 prison it was that I saw it. 
 
 4313. Duke of Marlborough.^ It was not in a prison under your control ? 
 
 No. 
 
 4314. Chairman^ Is there any further suggestion which you wish to make ? 
 ^Mth regard to infants being admitted with their mothers, I think that some 
 
 limitation should be placed upon that practice. 
 
 431 5. \Miat is the practice at present ? 
 
 Cliildren are brought with their mothers, and it is a very difficult thmg for us 
 to say that we will not take them in, and they are mostly admitted. I should 
 propose to deal with them according to age ; if the child was 12 months old, I 
 sliould propose to give power to the governors of prisons to reject the child, and 
 the policeman should either take it to the workhouse or return it to the friends 
 of the prisoner. 
 
 431 6. Is there any limitation at present as regards age ? 
 
 There is no hmitation ; the rule, I presume, is understood to be, that if the 
 woman is suckMng a child, the child shaU be achnitted, but if not, it shaU not be 
 admitted ; but that is by no means the practice. 
 
 4317. Up to what age are children admitted, within your knowledge? 
 
 I have had children brought to my prison with mothers certainly up to two 
 years old, but I have not Uked to take upon myself to reject the children. 
 
 431 8. Is there any further suggestion that you wish to make ? 
 
 The consoUdation of the criminal statutes of the Session before last has 
 provided that imprisonment without hard laljour may be imposed for most of 
 the offences therein enumerated ; at present, by the law, a prisoner sentenced 
 to imi)risonment without hard labour, may provide himself with the prison al- 
 lowance of food, and if he has the means of providing it, he may hve in idle- 
 ness ; that seems to me an anomaly. 
 
 43 1 9. jNIarquess of SaUshuri/.'] Can you produce any authority for a prisoner 
 contined for any criminal offence having such chet as he chooses ? 
 
 The 4th of George 4, chapter 64, section 38, provides : " And whereas persons 
 convicted of offences are frequently sentenced to imprisonment without being 
 sentenced to hard labour ; be it therefore enacted, that it shall be lawful for two 
 or more visitmg justices of any prison to order that all such persons confined in 
 such prison in pursuance of any sentence or conviction, excejjt such prisoners as 
 shaU maintain themselves, shall be set to some work or labour not severe." 
 That is ulterpreted that the prisoner may maintain himself. 
 
 4320. Does that mean a prisoner convicted for a criminal offence ? 
 Yes. 
 
 432 1 . Earl of Budley.'] If he does maintain himself, accorcUng to that, you are 
 not at liberty, are you, to put him to any, even hght labour ? 
 
 I am not. 
 
 4322. Lord Wodehouse^ Is it the case that he would have the prison diet by 
 pa} ing the expense of it, or would he be allowed to provide himself with any 
 other diet ? 
 
 He would not be allowed to provide himself with any other diet. Perhaps 
 (37. 13.) 3 E 2 your
 
 404 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ir. Linton, Esq. ^^^^^^, Lorclsliips will allow me to read the rule of the Petworth Gaol upon that 
 3otli April 1863. pomt : Rule 93 says, "No pi-isoner confined under sentence shall receive any 
 
 . food, clothing, or necessaries, other than the prison allowance, except by direction 
 
 of the surgeon, and under special circumstances, to be judged of by one or more 
 of the. visiting justices, in writing ; nevertheless, prisoners sentenced to imprison- 
 ment without hard labour may provide for themselves the daily allowance of 
 prison food instead of being compelled to maintain themselves by work or labour 
 not severe. 
 
 4323. Marquess of Salisburj/.^ Is that rule construed that they may exceed 
 the prison allowance ? 
 
 No ; but that they may purchase the prison allowance, and live in idleness. 
 That is the way in which I construe it. 
 
 4324. Duke of Richmond^ I understand you to state that the late legislation 
 has tended to make it optional as to whether a prisoner should or should not 
 have hard labour r 
 
 It has. 
 
 4325. And you point out this as an objection to those sentences ? 
 
 I think that it is one which should be brought under the notice of the Com- 
 mittee. 
 
 4326. Lord Wodelwuse?^ Wliat suggestion do you make for altering the law? 
 Simply to repeal that part of the clause. 
 
 4327. ^^^lat portion of the law do you object to, and what portion do you 
 think ovight to be altered ? 
 
 I think that portion which authorises a man sentenced to imprisonment with- 
 out hard labour to provide himself with food without working for it should 
 be altered. 
 
 I 
 
 4328. Would you provide that every man, whether sentenced to hard labour 
 or not, should be put to labour ? 
 
 Yes, he should be put to labour of some kind after conviction. 
 
 4329. Earl oi Romtm/^ Under what section of what Act is it that the gaol 
 provides a man with food which he can buy and pay for ? 
 
 The 4th of George 4, c. 64, s. 38 : " Wliereas persons convicted of offences are 
 frequently sentenced to imprisonment without being sentenced to hard labour ; 
 be it therefore enacted, that it shall be lawful for two or more visiting justices 
 of any prison to order that all such persons confined in such prison in pur- 
 suance of any sentence or conviction, except such prisoners as shall maintain 
 themselves, shall be set to some work or labour not severe." 
 
 4330. That does not say that they are to be maintained by buying the food 
 of the prison ? 
 
 It goes on to say, " And it is hereby declared, that no such prisoner who shall 
 be of ability to earn, or who shall have the means of earning or of otherwise 
 providing for his own subsistence, shall have any claim to be supported at the 
 ex])ense of the county, riding, or division, or by the sheriff or the keeper of the 
 prison ; provided that when such ability shall cease by reason of sickness, 
 infirmity, the want of sufficient work, or from any other cause, every such 
 person shall, during the continuance of his inability, receive such provision and 
 support as shall be directed for other convicted prisoners in the same prison ; 
 and the keeper of every such prison shall keep an account of the work done by 
 every prisoner so set to work as aforesaid, and shall account to such prisoner 
 for so nuich of the net profits which such prisoner shall have earned." That 
 part is repealed by a subsequent Act. 
 
 433 1 . There is nothing that points to supplying such a man with prison food, 
 and keeping an account against him, and charging him with it ? 
 
 No. 
 
 4332. Lord ]Vcn.sln/(I(th'.'\ It does not say that the man may not maintain 
 himself otherwise, but he is to have the option of purchasing the prison food ; it 
 does not prohibit him from getting it elsewhere, supposing he wished to purchase 
 some other means of sujjport ? 
 
 The
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 405 
 
 The rule says that they " may provide themselves the daily allowance of jv. iJnton, Esq. 
 prison food ;" it does not permit them to purchase it anywhere else. 
 
 30th April 1863. 
 
 4333. The prison regulation gives him the buying the gaol food optional, but . 
 
 it does not prohibit him from getting it elsewhere, does it .' 
 I think that another portion of the statute prohibits it. 
 
 43.54. Chairman.'] Is there any further suggestion that you wish to make to 
 the Committee r 
 
 No ; not bearing upon the subject of prison discipUne. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Saturday next. 
 Half-past Eleven o'clock. 
 
 (37.13.) 3 E 3
 
 [ 407 ] 
 
 Die Sabbati, 2° Mali 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT: 
 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 Earl of Carnarvon, 
 Earl of RoMNET. 
 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 Viscount EVERSLEY. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON in the Chair. , 
 
 Major C. W. BANNISTER is caUed in, and examined as foUows 
 
 Evidence on 
 Prison Discipline. 
 
 Major 
 
 4335- Chairman.^ YOU are the governor of the county gaol at Maidstone, ^- T F. Banm .i(cr. 
 are you not? 2d May 1863. 
 Yes. 
 
 4336. How long have you been governor of that gaol? 
 
 Nearly two years. 
 
 4337- ^^^lat office did you fill pre-\aously to that? 
 
 I was depvity-governor of the Dartmoor convict prison for a period of 18 
 months ? 
 
 4338. Had you held any prison appointment previously to that ? 
 No, I had not. 
 
 4339- Does your experience on the subject date back from that time ? 
 Yes, it merely dates back from that time. 
 
 V 
 
 4340. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee what is the 
 average nvunber of prisoners within your gaol r 
 
 The average nmnber is about 500 males and females. 
 
 4341. \^Tiat is the labom* which is enforced in your prison? 
 
 For male prisoners the treadwheel, and truck labour ; by truck labour I mean 
 drawing a truck laden with coals, or other store from one part of the prison to 
 another ; oakum-picking, aU the scrubbing and cleaning of the ceUs and 
 passages, and we have also wea\dng and mat-making ; we make all the prisoners' 
 clothing, and all the shoes of the prisoners and of the warders. For female 
 prisoners, washing, making and mending clothes, and scrubbing floors. 
 
 4342. Do you class such employments as mat-making, shoe-making, cleaning 
 the prison, and drawing coals, as hard labom* or Ught labour ? 
 
 We class them as hard labom-. 
 
 4343. Do you make any chstinction between the different forms of labour 
 which are in use in your gaol ? 
 
 Yes, the Visiting Justices have made a distinction ; they have not allowed 
 oakum-picking to be considered hard labour ; nor sack-making, and other light 
 work. 
 
 4344. For what class of prisoners do they reserve those occupations ? 
 
 For those whom the svu-geon has placed on his list as being unfit for the more 
 difficult labour, by which I mean principally the treadwheel. 
 
 4345. Is it the practice in Maidstone Gaol to employ the short sentence 
 prisoners upon industrial occupation ? 
 
 No, it is not at all the practice ; we make no difference ; every prisoner sentenced 
 to hard labour goes on the wheel, if not reported unfit by the surgeon. 
 
 (37.14.) 3 E 4 4346. For
 
 408 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major 434C. For whom, then, is the industrial occupation resei-ved ? 
 
 C. W. Baimister. We resen^e it for no particular class of prisoners. \Mien a man has under- 
 
 gone a certain period of his sentence on the wheel, say half his sentence, my 
 
 2d May 1863. pjj^j-^ j^^s been (I do not know whether it is a regular plan in other prisons), if 
 — he is a tradesman, and has behaved himself well, to take him off the wheel, and 
 put him to a trade, because we require men to do the work of the prison, and 
 we must have them. 
 
 4347. Do you treat industrial occupation as a reward, and as an encoiu-age- 
 ment to good conduct ? 
 
 Yes, I do. 
 
 4348. Do you make any use of the crank?' 
 We have no crank in our gaol. 
 
 4349. Is it your practice, as a rule, to employ every prisoner upon the tread- 
 wheel unless you require his services elsewhere for the orcUnary pui^jioses of the 
 prison, or unlt^ss liis health should render it necessary to exempt him from that 
 labour ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4350. ^^llat is the maximum time which any man in good health is kept 
 employed at the wheel ? 
 
 The maximum daily time of labour is between eight and nine hours in the 
 summer ; nearly nine hours. 
 
 4351. And what is the reUef ? 
 Our relief is one-third of the time. 
 
 4352. Supposing there were 30 men employed at one speU upon the wheel, 
 10 would be on relief and 20 would be at work at the same time ? 
 
 Exactly so ; that is how we arrange it. 
 
 4353. Tlie whole of the Maidstone Gaol is not upon the separate s}stem, is it ? 
 No ; the female jiart of it is on the separate system, and the rest of it is on 
 
 the associated system. 
 
 4354. Are any of the cells on the male side of the prison certified ? 
 No ; only three punishment cells that have lately been made. 
 
 4355- Do the prisoners sleep together ? 
 No ; they all have separate sleeping cells. 
 
 4356. What is the size of those sleeping cells ? 
 Nine feet by seven. 
 
 4357. Tlierefore they do not fall very far short of the required standard ? 
 Not very much ; 9 feet b}' 1 3 is the required standard. 
 
 4358- 1^0 the prisoners associate together during the day time ? 
 Yes, the male prisoners do ; the females are entirely on the separate system, 
 except a few who work in association in the laundry. 
 
 43.^9. To what extent do you carry that association ; how many prisoners are 
 associated together in one room ? 
 
 The wards are of chfferent sizes ; the largest one contains 40, and the smallest 
 12. 
 
 4360. Is there an officer present in every ward r 
 
 No, we have not enough officers for that. Ours is on the classification prin- 
 ciple and is divided into four divisions, each having a warder's round-house. 
 Each round-house is the centre of a division and has four buildings radiating 
 fnnn it. There are two wards in each of the buildings, which radiate from the 
 round-houses, and the duty of each officer is to look in at the doors while the 
 prisoners are at their meals, and during the half-hour after dinner, and the 
 quarter of an liour after Ijreakfast and supper when they exercise in the yards ; 
 that is the only supendsion over them tluring that time. After their meals, 
 they are taken by the officers to labour in the factory building. Those who 
 are oakuni-pickiug and sack-making, or doing any trades, are taken to this 
 manufactory ; and those on the wheel are taken to the wheel from these wards, 
 
 to
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 409 
 
 to work on the associated principle, and in the manufactory they also work on Mnjor 
 
 the associated system, with officers to supervise them. C. W. Bannisteii 
 
 4361. \Miilst they are associated at work in the manufactory, are the officers ^'^ ^^7 '^^3- 
 present ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4362. Is the rule of silence strictly enforced ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4363. How far does each prisoner sit or stand from his neighbour? 
 He sits close to his neighbour, almost touching him. 
 
 4364. How many warders have }'ou in the manufactorj' ? 
 
 Two warders generally, and manufacturer ; that is all that we can afford to 
 put there. 
 
 4365. Do you not believe that communications pass between prisoner and 
 prisoner ? 
 
 I am sure of it ; we have such imperfect supervision, that I am sure it must 
 take place ; but whenever we find it out we punish for it. 
 
 4366. Do you believe that that is productive of mischief? 
 I do. 
 
 4367. What form does that mischief take, in your prison ? 
 
 Of course I cannot see the result of it myself ; I can only surmise the mis- 
 chief that it produces. If a very bad man, or a very bad boy, sits next a boy 
 who has only had one conviction, and does not really belong to the criminal 
 class, I cannot tell what harm happens between them ; but I can surmise 
 that the l)oy"s mind is poisoned, and perhaps he may be even introduced at that 
 time to those who may become his worst friends when he is outside the prison. 
 
 4368. Have you no system of classification of first and second offences, or 
 according to the nature of the f)ffence itself, whereby you can limit that con- 
 tamination, even under the associated system which you have described ? 
 
 It is a very imperfect classification, if you can call it classification at aU. The 
 classification hitherto pursued in the gaol has been in accordance with the Act 
 of George the Fourth. The only classification that we have in that way between 
 what we term re-committals and the others is, that those re-committed eat their 
 meals in their cells. The practice of the prison has always been so, as well as the 
 rules of the prison, and it is out of my power to alter them without authority. 
 After they have eaten their meals in tlieir cells, they are taken down to their 
 exercise with all the rest of the prisoners. They are onl}' kept separate from 
 the others during their meal time, and they are thrown into association imme- 
 diately afterwards. 
 
 4369. In fact, tliere is nothing whatever to prevent a thoroughly hardened 
 criminal from sitting next to, or communicating with, a young lad who may be 
 imprisoned for a very short period, and for some casual offence of a venial 
 nature ? 
 
 Nothing at all ; but I must explain that the system which I am now speaking 
 of, is the system which has been hitherto pursued ; but it is now an-anged that 
 (juite a tUfferent system shall be adopted ; and the building is progressing rapidly * 
 for that puq:)ose. It is not exactly the model prison system of separation, because 
 we should have had to throw down the prison, and to make the cells much larger 
 in order to have done that ; there is not room for it. But the system which we 
 are about to adopt is, that, instead of permitting the prisoners to associate freely 
 in the numerous day rooms, which are 30 in number, each with its adjoining- 
 arcade and exercise yard, and spread over the prison, we are going to conntet 
 each day room, with the arcade which joins it, and these buildings will have parti- 
 tions of slate, so that each man will sit between two partitions with a little gate in 
 front, and every man will be separated from his neighbour. It may be possiljle 
 that he ma}' sa)- a little to his neighbour, but an}' continued communication 
 would be entirely prevented, and we have also had an increase of officers given 
 to us, by which we shall be enabled to lia^^e in every ward an officer always 
 present, and the duty of those officers during working hours and meal times (for 
 even^ man will work and have his meals in those compartments) wiU be to walk 
 
 (37. M.) 3 F up
 
 410 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major up and down in fi-ont of the partitions in which the prisoners are sitting, and 
 
 7. /r. Bannister, to Supervise tlie prisoners. 
 
 2d May 1863. 4370. Is it proposed that those partitions should be entirely open in the 
 
 front ? 
 
 It is not proposed that they are to be entirely open ; but there is a gate 
 through which you can see the prisoner ; it is an open Ijarred gate, with the bars 
 about four inches apart, so that although the prisoner can be seen, he cannot 
 get out unless he is unlocked. 
 
 4371. Are the Committee to understand that you wiU simplj^ use those par- 
 titions during the day ? 
 
 Yes, for work and for meals also. 
 
 4372. But not for sleeping r 
 
 No ; at the close of the day each man wiU be marched from those compart- 
 ments vip to his cell above. Each set of prisoners, when they are marched from 
 their rooms in the morning, wiU go down stairs, have their breakfast in their 
 compartments, and remain at work in those compartments, instead of being 
 moved to the manufactoiy to work. 
 
 4373. Are you of opinion that this contemplated change will be a great 
 advantage ? 
 
 Yes, I think it mil be a very great advantage. 
 
 4374. Will it tend to check and limit the possibility of communications 
 passing ? 
 
 Not every commimication ; I do not think it will- check entirely the com- 
 munication l^etween two known thieves. They have, I have no doubt, a mode 
 of communication between themselves which they may understand, and earn' on 
 to a certain extent, without our being able to detect it. They are extremely 
 cunning in their methods of communication between each other ; but I do not 
 think it wiU be in the power of any thoroughly bad criminal to contaminate any 
 other person in the gaol. 
 
 4375. In marching them backwards and forwards from their cells to those 
 compartments, or to the wheel, wiU it be your practice for the future to prevent 
 communication passing Ijetween the prisoners ? 
 
 For the future it will. We shall pass them as far as we can possibly do it 
 accorcUng to the system pursued on the separate system. The exercise will also 
 be carried on in the same manner. 
 
 4376. Do you intend to adopt the use of masks or hoods when .exercising ? 
 No, nothing has been said upon that. 
 
 4377. Do }ou intend to adopt any system of separation in the chapel? 
 
 No ; separation in chapel has not been provided for. I should explain that 
 our prison chapel has been made (I do not know how many years ago), on the 
 same principle as all the rest of the prison has been made, to meet the sort of 
 classiiieation which the Act of George "the Fourth points out, that is to say, of 
 separating misdemeanants from felons, and keeping prisoners in want of sureties 
 and prisoners for trial separate from convicted prisoners, and so on. In point 
 of fact, it is a classification according to the description of crime. Our chapel 
 is arranged in the same manner ; there are partitions Avhich represent as nearly 
 as possible in number the wards in which those prisoners are classed off. It 
 has been determined to make a new chapel now upon what is called the silent 
 system. The prisoners will then be all in association ; but there will be a 
 sufficient number of officers always present to prevent communication. 
 
 4378. Viscount Everslej/.~\ Do you propose separating the prisoners on the 
 tread wlieel ? 
 
 I do not propose separating them there, simply because we shall then lose 
 the possibility of making them woi'k at what is called two-thirds time. I have 
 seen the system of separation on the wheel carried out in Coldbath Fields, and 
 there they can only have, say six men on and six men off, so that they must 
 give them equal work to equal rest ; whereas by our plan 1 2 men may be on 
 the wheel while six are off, and as the prisoners pass alcmg the wheel, and at 
 every second miimte one of them descends at one end while one who had been 
 resting ascends at the other, we are able to give every man 24 minutes' work to 
 
 12 minutes'
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 411 
 
 12 minutes' rest, \vhich is termed two-thirds time, that is to say, two-thirds Major 
 
 labour to one-third rest ; but by the other plan we can only give them half ^' W.^^annister. 
 
 and half ; so that, I think, although we might stop communication upon the 2d May 1863. 
 
 wheel by separation, we should lose the amount of work. . 
 
 4379. What is the scale of diet which is in force at Maidstone Gaol? 
 
 It is the scale suggested by the Secretarj^ of State ; it was adopted, I believe, 
 without any moditication at all. 
 
 4380. Is that dietary, in your opinion, satisfactory in its operation, or is it in 
 deficiency, or is it in excess at aU, or is it exactly suited to the necessities of the 
 several classes for which it provides ? 
 
 With regard to everj' long-sentenced prisoner, say for a )ear and upwards, 
 I would not say positiveh^ that it is too little in quantit}' ; but I think that 
 either in quantity or in quality there is something wanting in it ; that is to say, 
 if a man is working on the Avheel. I do not mean to say so with regard to any 
 other labour ; but I am perfectly satisfied that the wheel is a very punishing 
 laljour indeed ; and I think that this diet for sentences of a year and over is 
 either insufficient in quantity, or else in quahty ; it is not varied enough ; there 
 is something in it that does not suit the man's constitution. 
 
 4381. IVIight it not be that the objection which you stated woidd arise, not 
 fi'om the quantit)' or the quality of the food, but from insufficiency in 
 variety ? 
 
 It might, I shoidd think. 
 
 43S2. On what do you ground that behef of yours ; is it from obsen^ation r 
 From obsenation. . 
 
 4383. You have stated to the Committee that you have been only two years 
 at Maidstone ; has that period afforded you sufficient experience to enable you 
 to judge with accuracy on such a point as this? 
 
 Perhaps not ; I shoxdd be sorry to place my experience of only two years 
 against that of men who have been a much longer time acquainted with this 
 subject. 
 
 4384. Have there been many instances which have come under yom* notice 
 where that diet has appeared to you to be insufficient for the long-sentenced 
 prisoners ? 
 
 Yes, I think I have obsened it in a good many instances, particularly with 
 regard to those on the wheel. I sa}' nothing of other work. I have never found 
 that the women suffer at all. I have asked the matron, and I have also asked 
 others who have been at the gaol, and the assistant governor, who has been a 
 long time there, about it, and he has observed the same tiling himself, and I 
 find that the women do not suffer. 
 
 4385. Do you weigh the prisoners on their entrance and at their departure? 
 No, we do not. 
 
 4386. AMiat is it, then, which leads }ou to beUeve that there is a falling off 
 in strength on the part of the men ? 
 
 Their appearance. 
 
 4387. Is that a view which is entertained by the surgeon also ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4388. Is it the surgeon's practice to issue extra diets? 
 
 Only in a very few instances ; it is very rare, indeed, with us. 
 
 4389. Can you state the number of extra diets issued during the last year ? 
 Yes, I can ; but I must ask first, whether by your question you mean me to 
 
 include those who are in the hospital. 
 
 4390. The Committee understand by "extra" that there are allowances issued 
 by the svu-geon to men who are not on the sick hst, but who, in his opinion, are 
 unequal to their work, or unable to maintain a fair share of health on the ordinary 
 prison fare : 
 
 The extra diets would then relate to bakers and cooks. Tlie bakers have to rise at 
 
 three or four o'clock in the morning, and they do not go to bed sometimes till 
 
 eight o'clock, when they are locked up. They are at work all that time, and for 
 
 tlie most part in a very hot place ; and, whether it is right or not I cannot say, 
 
 (37.14.) 3f2 but
 
 412 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major but it lias always been the custom to g^ive those men a pint of beer each because 
 
 C. W. Bannister, ^f their being in a veiy heated atmosphere all day for such a number of hours. 
 
 3d May 1863. I believe that has been given entirely from the doctor's recommendation, saying 
 
 that it was necessary for their constitution ; how far it was necessary I do not 
 
 pretend to say ; but that has been so. There are seven of those extra diets. 
 Then there are onl}- five other men in the whole prison who have been ordered 
 anything extra, and those have a pint of beer each ; they are men with scrofula, 
 or some other disease, and who have been in the prison for some time. 
 
 4391 . But if the hard labour of the wheel is seriously telling on a man's con- 
 stitution at the end of a year or 18 months, would it not be the duty of the 
 surgeon to order him extra chet, supposing it was necessary to continue that 
 hard labour? 
 
 Yes ; or to take him off the wheel, and he has almost invariably adopted the 
 latter course on a prisoner's health appearing to fail. 
 
 43q2. Would not, therefore, the inference be. that the wheel was not teUing 
 so miich upon their health as a former answer of yours seemed to imply ? 
 
 No, I think not ; the clearest proof to my mind that the diet is not sufficient 
 for a prisoner at wheel labour is that instances are very rare indeed in which a 
 prisoner has ever done six months consecutively on the wheel without having 
 been taken off at •least once for ten or 14 days by the surgeon for rest. 
 
 4393. Earl Cathcart.~] Assuming that one house of con-ection is situated in 
 the coiuitry in health}' fields and in a good atmosphere, and that another jjrison 
 is situated in the middle of a smoky manufacturing district, do not you suppose 
 that a cUet which might be quite sufficient in one place might be rather insuffi- 
 cient in -the other ? 
 
 It might be so ; l)ut that is a point rather for a medical man than for me. 
 
 4.394. Earl of Romnci/.'] Practically, does it really happen that the surgeon 
 orders extra diet to men on the wheel ? 
 
 Very rarel}' ; whenever a man becomes weak and shaky the surgeon orders 
 him into the factory to rest. 
 
 439.5. Can you state how many were ordered last year? 
 
 I do not think any of the five men to whom I have aUuded were on the wheel, 
 
 4396. With regard to the effect of the wheel upon the long sentenced men, 
 you wish the Committee to understand that you have obsei-ved that at the end 
 of twelve or eighteen months they show by their countenance and general ap- 
 pearance that the wheel is telling upon them ? 
 
 Yes, even after six months ; I have never known an instance of a man doing 
 twelve months without being taken off by the surgeon. 
 
 4397. But is not that just what would be the effect of any other severe labour 
 which is performed by men out of doors ? 
 
 That I should doubt ; I do not think you ever see such effects produced by 
 labour out of doors as you see produced by the wheel. 
 
 43t)8. If a man is put to very severe labour out of doors, it tells upon him to 
 a certain extent ; and you are of opinion that the wheel tells upon him to a still 
 greater extent, inasmu(;h as it is much severer labour ? 
 
 Yes, I think it is ; and it becomes much harder lalwur when accompanied 
 with such unvaried monotonous diet. 
 
 4399. Chairmfin.'] You have stated, have you not, to this Committee that the 
 ordhiarv amount of labour on the treadwheel for men sentenced for more than 
 12 months is at the rate of nine hours per day in tlie Maidstone Gaol? 
 
 I stated so ; but I ought to have explain(-d that that ajjplied to summer time ; 
 we change the amount according to the season of the year ; I think I was asked 
 the maximum lime tliat tliey were kept on the wheel, and in sunnner it would 
 be nine hours, but it would be very much less in winter, probably not more than 
 six and a half hours. 
 
 4400. .Marquess of Salisbnri/.] For what reason is tliat difference made? 
 Because our rules say that we are to lock and unlock according to sunrise and 
 
 sunset, and we have a scale which comes as near to thnt as can be. 
 
 4401. Chfiirman. \ Is coii)oral punishment in use in Maidstone Gaol ? 
 
 Yes; the Visiting Justices inflict it for any oft'ence whic;h I may bring up to 
 them ; generally for insubordination, or anything of that sort, it is inflicted. 
 
 4402. How
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 413 
 
 4402. How many cases have you had within the last year ? Major 
 Eight. ^- T^- Hannister, 
 
 4403. Can you state the number of re-committals ? ^'^ ^l*y '863. 
 Five hundred and thirtj-nine. 
 
 4404. Marquess of S<ilishuri/J] Do you suppose that many escape your 
 notice ? 
 
 Yes, I think a good many do escape our notice ; we have to trust a great deal 
 to what the prisoner tells the gatekeeper as to whether he has been in prison 
 before or not ; we often have not the means of knowing whether he has been in 
 ^^'ands worth Gaol, or some other gaol. 
 
 4405. Have you often to appear in court upon an incUctment to pro^e a pre- 
 vious conviction? 
 
 No ; I have never been called upon to do so, but some of my officers have ; it 
 is not of veiy frequent occurrence. 
 
 4406. To what do you attribute that ? , 
 I do not know at all. 
 
 4407. Do you receive many appUcations from other counties to send officers 
 to identif}' prisoners ? 
 
 No, not a very large number. 
 
 4408. Do you always attend to such appUcations? 
 Yes, always. 
 
 4409. Is there any dissatisfaction expressed on the part of your warders on 
 account of the expense of going to identify prisoners ? 
 
 None at aU ; they like going, of course, because they get away for a change, 
 and have their expenses paid. 
 
 4410. Do you think that their remuneration is sufficient? 
 I think so ; I have never heard any complaint. 
 
 44 n. Chairman^ With regard to diet, you stated to the Committee that jow. 
 were 18 months as an officer in the Dartmoor Prison ; is there any difference 
 between the dietary in use in Dartmoor and that in Maidstone r 
 
 Very great difference. 
 
 441-2. Which dietary is the largest ? 
 The dietary in Dartmoor. 
 
 44 '53. In what does the superiority of the Dartmoor dietary consist? 
 
 It is better both in quantity aiKl in variety ; for instance, our highest diet is four 
 ounces of meat, whereas the highest diet at the prison at Dartmoor is six ounces 
 of uncooked meat without bone ; and when they have soup at Dartmoor they 
 have four ounces, I think, of meat with the soup, and the strength of the soup 
 which is very strong as well ; then they have pudcHng on some days, and peas 
 on other days ; they have a very much more varied diet than we have in Maid- 
 stone Gaol ; but then these are all prisoners with long sentences, and they are 
 all invaUds, Dartmoor being an invalid establishment. 
 
 4414. Earl of Romnn/.'] Do you think there is an}i;hing in the system at 
 Dartmoor that tends to reform the prisoner more than at Maidstone ? 
 
 No, I think certainly not ; they are both on the associated system ; Dartmoor 
 is almost entirely so. 
 
 4415. Marquess of Salisbury.'] At Dartmoor there is a great deal of agricul- 
 tural work, is there not ? 
 
 Yes, and other outside work ; I think that agricultural work is a very good 
 thing for a prisoner. 
 
 4416. Earl of Romnei/^ Do you think that, on the whole, the system at 
 Dartmoor tends to reform a man ? 
 
 Not to any extent. Association, I think, must always stand in the way of 
 reformation ; and I do not think that, under any system in a prison, an}thing 
 more can be dont^ than a foundation laid for reformation. 
 
 4417. \Miat is principally aimed at there ? 
 
 The authorities aim at producing among the prisoners habits of industry, and 
 (37.14.) 3 F 3 to
 
 414 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Major 
 C W. Bannister. 
 
 2d May 1 863. 
 
 to prove to them that it is their interest to lead regular, sober, and industrious 
 lives. I think the trades have a tendency certainly to reformation in a man ; I 
 haA'e seen a man who has never known a trade at all, and never could do anything 
 for his living, a man probably of the regidar thief class, who has learned a 
 trade there, and become a capital shoemaker b)' the time he has left the 
 prison. 
 
 441 8. Do you think that he has learnt to behave himself properly when he is 
 released ? 
 
 I cannot say what he would do when he goes back again to his old haunts ; 
 I think it is very cUfficult to say how many do become better. He has certainly 
 been taught how to behave himself properly. 
 
 441 9. WTiat is your own opinion upon that point ? 
 
 My opinion is that not a veiy large mmdjer of prisoners in any prison become 
 permanently reformed. 
 
 4420. Earl of Dudlei/.1 Would you not draw a distinction between first and 
 second convictions with regard to the beneficial effects of prison disciphne ? 
 
 Precisely ; because it implies quite a chfferent class of man, if he is convicted 
 a second time. A man may be convicted the first time from having been led 
 into error. 
 
 4421. Then it woidd foUow naturally that prison discipline would be a lesson 
 to him, would it not r 
 
 Yes, it woidd in those cases. 
 
 4422. Then e\-idently j'ou draw a cUstinction between first and second con- 
 victions ? 
 
 Yes, I do ; I should wish to explain that there is such a difference in the 
 class of prisoners altogether, that it is very difficult to answer a general question 
 of that kind at once. There are some men who have got into troulile in their 
 money matters, and so on, and who have committed some swindling trans- 
 actions for once in their lives. Such men, I think, woidd be afterwards the 
 better for being confined in prison, from ha\-ing had time to think over their 
 past life. But when I stated that I thought very little improvement was 
 effected by prison discipline, I referi-ed more particularly to those men who are 
 of the house-breaking class, and who are born thieves. Persons of that class 
 I believe scarcely ever become any better, whatever you do to them. 
 
 4423. Chairman.'] Have you any other suggestion which you wish to make 
 to the Committee with regard to the internal cUscipline of the prison ? 
 
 Nothing occurs to me at the moment. 
 
 [The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Mr. CHARLES AUGUSTUS KEENE is caUed in, and examined as follows : 
 
 3Ir. C>A. Kcene. 
 
 4424. Chairman.] YOU are the governor of Leeds Prison, are you not ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4425. Is that a borough gaol? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4426. How long have you held the office of governor there ? 
 One year and four months. 
 
 4427. Had you (vcr held any prison office previously? 
 
 I was seven years steward of the City of London Prison at HoUoway. 
 
 442 8. AMiat is the duty of the steward of a gaol ? 
 
 The general sui)erinte"n(lence of all the lal)our, and the safe custody and 
 issuing of stoiTS. Previo\isly to that I was two years clerk at the Wandsworth 
 House of Correction in Surrey. 
 
 44 2Q. How many ijrisoncrs is the Leeds Prison capable of containing? 
 There are 842 separate cells ; and there are some cells now making which 
 
 are not comi)leted. 
 
 4430. Is
 
 SELECT COilMlTTEE OX PRISON" DISCIPLINE. 415 
 
 4430. Is that gaol on the separate system ? Mr. C. A Keene 
 
 Yes. 
 
 443 1 . Are all the cells of which you speak certified ? 
 
 Yes, with the exception of those which are not quite finished. 
 
 4432. What is the average number of prisoners who are in confinement in 
 your gaol ? 
 
 There were 266 last year. 
 
 4433. Do the majority of them come from the town of Leeds, or from the 
 surrounding country ? 
 
 The greater part of them come from the town of Leeds. 
 
 4434. Are a large proportion of those prisoners re-committed pi'isoners r 
 A very large proportion indeed. 
 
 4435. Are the offences generally heavy in their character? 
 
 No, not at all so ; they are rather light offences. The breaches of the Leeds 
 Improvement Act supplj'- the greatest number, such as idleness and sauntering 
 about the streets, drunkenness and riotous behaviour. 
 
 4436. Do you carry yovu' system of separation through every part of your 
 prison system? 
 
 I do not in the kitchen department ; there are five prisoners there assisting 
 the cook, and they are not kept in separation, of course. 
 
 4437. Were those men selected for good conduct ? 
 
 Yes, they were selected for good conduct. They had serv^ed a long time in 
 prison, and the doctor, thinking that the)' were declining in health, recommended 
 some lighter emplo}'ment for them. Those I pick out for such emplopnent as 
 gardening and working in the kitchen. 
 
 4438. Do you use the cell system in the chapel ? 
 
 Y^es, with the exception of a few seats ; I think there are 50 seats which have 
 been thrown open. 
 
 4439. \Mien was that done ? 
 About thirteen years since. 
 
 4440. What was the reason ? 
 
 The magistrates wished to try the experiment whether the prisoners conducted 
 themselves as well in the open seats as they tlid in the boxes. 
 
 4441. Has the result of that experiment been to induce them to throw down 
 the other separations r 
 
 No ; they beUeve that the prisoners conduct themselves better in the separate 
 Ijoxes than in the open seats ; the open seats give too great faciUties for com- 
 munication, and for signaUing one to the other. 
 
 4442. Is it your opinion that the separate system in chapel is, on the whole, 
 
 most desirable ? 
 Undoubtedly. 
 
 4443. Have you found any great difficidty vAt\\ regard to the partitions being 
 defaced or scratched by the prisoners ? 
 
 No, not at all. 
 
 4444. Earl of Dudley.'] Or any acts of indecency ? 
 There are some few cases, but they are very rare. 
 
 ZI445. Have you been generally able to punish whenever such an offence has 
 been committed ? 
 
 No ; I have not been able in everj' instance to put my hand upon the man ; 
 but, in some instances, the officers, who occupy elevated seats, have seen a 
 prisoner scratching ; and in those cases, which are very few, I have been able to 
 punish them; but there have been cases in which I have not been able to 
 punish. 
 
 4446. Is the cha]ilain satisfied with the separate system in the chapel ? 
 Yes ; he prefers it to the associated system. 
 
 4447. How long has he been in that office ? 
 Six years. 
 
 (37.14.) 3 F 4 444 S. Was 
 
 2d May 1863.
 
 2(1 May 1863. 
 
 416 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mr C A Keene 4A4S. Was he the chaplain of any gaol previously? 
 
 No. 
 
 4449. Is the chapel used as a school-room ? 
 
 No. 
 
 4450. Is there another school-room ? 
 There is a school-room which is used for boys, but the adults receive their 
 
 instruction in the separate cells. The schoolmaster goes from cell to cell, and the 
 chaplain also. 
 
 44,', 1 . The Committee, therefore, understand that the system of separation is 
 carried out as strictly as you are able to do it ? 
 Quite so. 
 
 4452. What is the labour that is enforced in the Leeds Gaol ? 
 Weaving, bagging, canvas, and cocoa fibre matting, making mats, and picking 
 wool and oakum. 
 
 4.153. Have you no treadwheel labour? 
 
 No. 
 
 4454. Nor any crank labour? 
 
 Yes, I have the crank. 
 
 44 1 3. What form of crank labour is it that you use ; is it a crank with one 
 continuous shaft, or is it the separate crank, which goes b}" the name of the 
 hard-labour cellular crank ? 
 
 It is Botten's hard-labour cellular crank ; but we have very few of them, and 
 they are very seldom used. 
 
 4456. To what class of prisoners do you appl}^ them? 
 
 To those who exhibit great stii})i(lity in learning the different trades, and who 
 are not picking them up sufficiently quick ; we put those upon the crank who 
 wiU not learn, or fail to perform their task. 
 
 44,",7. Do you emi)loy short sentence prisoners in industrial occupations? 
 Onl\' in jjicking oakum and picking wool. 
 
 4458. How are the cells ventilated in which those cellular cranks are placed? 
 They are ventilated precisely the same as the rest of the cells. 
 
 4459. Are they ventilated hy a flue, or l)y a window, or by both ? 
 By a flue ; and some of them have also ventilators in the windows. 
 
 4460. Have )'ou ever foimd that, from the use of those cellular cranks, the 
 air becomes vitiated, and inconvenience arises to the health of the prisoner ? 
 
 No. The fact is that they are seldom used ; but I never found any ill effects 
 resulting from them at all. 
 
 44 til. Therefore, as I understand, you make use of the cellular crank as a 
 punishment, and as an exceptional form of thscipline, rather than as a 
 regular one ? 
 
 Quite so. 
 
 4462. Does that arise from a preference in your mind for productive lal)our 
 over vniproductive labour as being more profitable to the gaol, or as being a 
 better form of disci])line to be applied to tlic ])ris(mers? 
 
 I think that productive labour is a much better form of thscipliiie than unpro- 
 ductive labour. 
 
 446:5. On what ground ? 
 
 I think that the working of those cranks becomes exceedingly tedious to the 
 prisoner, and if long continued, injurious to his health. 
 
 446.1. But is it, in your o])inion, desiral)le to cut off from the prison system 
 that which you may call the irksome, and tedious and monotonous element? 
 
 ^Vhile they are engaged at the productive labour, they are at the same time 
 learning a trade which, on their discliarge, enables them to get their hving if 
 they are so disposed. 
 
 446',. But assuming that a carpenter or a shoemaker is sent into your prison, 
 it would probabl}' be your practice to ])ut him to that trade with which he was 
 conversant "? 
 
 Not necessarily so. I generally keep one man in the carjjenter's shop. 
 
 4466. Would
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 417 
 
 4466. Would you not employ a caipenter who was in confinement in car- Mr.C. A.Keene. 
 penterins; and a shoemaker in shoemakim^ ? , ~ : . 
 
 V -Ft ■ 1 <-! T 1 11 2d May 18^0. 
 
 les, II 1 requuTd them 1 slioukl. ■^ 
 
 4467. Would Aou not endeavour to do it ; would }'ou not think that it was 
 utilising the lal)our which was at your command ? 
 
 I should not have the faciUt}- of employing ever}' caqjenter that came into the 
 prison. 
 
 4468. Would you do so if you had the facility? 
 
 I should do it only so long as their lahour was required. 
 
 4469. Then, is it }our opinion that a prisoner would prefer to be employed on 
 his jirevious trade, or to be put to unproductive labour, in the tedious form of 
 labour on the treadwheel and the crank 1 
 
 He would undoubtedly prefer his own labour. 
 
 4470. Is it, in your opinion, desirable to make the form of discipline, what- 
 ever it be, ])alatable to the prisoner in that respect ? 
 
 No, certainl)' not ; but all labour is tasked, and if sufficient is not performed 
 the prisoner is punished. 
 
 447 J. Then on what ground is it that you express a preference for industrial 
 labour over the treadwheel and the crank in a disci})linar}' point of view ? 
 
 Merely because I think that a great part of the prisoners call themselves 
 labourers who realh" have no trade; and teaching them -weaving and mat- 
 making, and wea^ing cocoa-nut fibre matting, would enable them, if they were so 
 disposed, after the time of their imprisonment expired, to obtain their Uvehhood. 
 
 4472. Is it, therefore, with a view to their ultimate reformation that you 
 advocate that r 
 
 Yes ; but in the case of incoi-rigible rogues I should prefer putting them on 
 the hard-labour machine. 
 
 4473. Then is it your opinion that the very large majority of your prisoners 
 are not confirmed criminals ? 
 
 I do not think they are. 
 
 4474. You stated to the Committee a short time since, did you not, that the 
 re-committals formed a ven^ large proportion of your prisoners : 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4475. Do }-ou suppose that those re-committed prisoners are prisoners who for 
 the most part are incorrigible ? 
 
 I do not consider them Uke incorrigible felons. They are incorrigible so far 
 as disorderh- (conduct in the streets and minor offences, such as drunkenness, 
 are concerned. 
 
 4476. Do }-ou consider that they are open to reformatory influences? 
 Quite so in the case of very many of them. 
 
 4477. And is there no class within your gaol whom you would look upon as 
 practically incorrigible r 
 
 There are the "regular pickpockets : I look upon them as incorrigible un- 
 doubtedly. 
 
 4478. Do you look upon the class of receivers of stolen goods as incor- 
 rigible ? 
 
 Quite so ; but I very seldom have an}' in custody. 
 
 4479. Again, do you look upon the class of forgers or coiners as open to 
 reformatory influences ? 
 
 I should" look upon the coiners as incorrigible, but I cannot say the same with 
 regard to the forgers in all cases. 
 
 4480. Again, do you believe that the utterers of bad mone}- are a class who 
 are not open to reformatory influences ? 
 
 I should say that they were incorrigible. 
 
 4481. Are there many in your gaol that would come under those different 
 classes ? 
 
 There are not many of those classes. 
 
 (37. 14.) 3 G 4482. Are
 
 418 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mr. C. A. Keene. 4-182. Are the Committee, then, to understand, that whenever you find a man 
 
 of that class whom you state you consider to be incorrigible, you wovild employ 
 
 2d May 1863. him upon the crank? 
 
 No ; because I could not in every case, seeing that we have not sufficient 
 cranks for so large a number of prisoners. 
 
 44S3. You stated, did vou not, that the crank was very often left quite 
 idle ? 
 
 Yes, it is quite idle at times. 
 
 4484.. Are there times when there is no one person m your prison who could 
 be placed under any of those separate heads ; is there any moment when you 
 have not a coiner or a forger, or any of those whom you have mentioned as of 
 the incorrigible class ? 
 
 448.5. Earl of !>?«//??/.] According to your evidence, it would seem natural, 
 woidd it not, that the cranks should be employed by those men ? 
 My own opinion is not to use those cranks. 
 
 4486. Chairman^ On what ground is it that those cranks are allowed to 
 remain viseless ? 
 
 The justices for the most part prefer productive labour. 
 
 4487. If so, is not the result of your evidence this, that productive labom- is, 
 in vour opinion, the most desirable labom* on which to employ those prisoners ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4488. And is not the reason of that, that productive labour is the most re- 
 munerative as regards the funds of the prison ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 448(5. You woidd not object to unproductive labour on the ground of cUs- 
 cipline, or on the groimd of the ultimate reformation of the prisoner, but you 
 olDJect to it because it is in fact wasting the productive enei'gies of the man ? 
 
 Qiute so ; that is my opinion. 
 
 4490. And }"ou state that that is the opinion of the Visiting Justices also ? 
 Yes, I believe it is. 
 
 4491. What is the total profit fi'om the labour of the prisoners, which your 
 ]:)alance sheet shows ? 
 
 £. 782. 4 s. 7 d. last year ; that is adding the estimated value of the work done 
 for the benefit of the prison, in adchtion to the actual profit earned by the 
 prisoners for the goods that have been sold. 
 
 4492. Earl Cathcart.l You do not estimate papng for cleaning and that sort 
 of thing, do you ? 
 
 No ; I estimate the value of the carpentering and painting, and so on ; 
 552 /. 13 ^. 2 d. is the amount of money actually received from goods sold. 
 
 4493. What proportion does that bear to the whole expense of the estabUsh- 
 ment ? 
 
 The expenditure was 4,84 1 I. 1 8 .s. 4 d., and the prison earnings amounted to 
 782 I. 4 s. 7 d. 
 
 4494. Earl of Ronmci/.^ In order to get at that profit of 552/. 13 s. 2d., do 
 you charge against the earnings the cost of the maintenance of the prisoners 
 who work at those several employments ? 
 
 No. 
 
 449'^. If you chd so, you would get no profit at all ? 
 No. 
 
 4496. Marquess of Salisburi/.^ What is the average number in the prison ? 
 265-96. 
 
 4497. Chairman^ Can you give the Committee the average number of re- 
 committals ? 
 
 I can give the total of last year; males, 867, and females 358 ; total, 1,225. 
 
 4498. What was the total number of persons who were committed to your 
 gaol diu'ing last year ? 
 
 Males, 1,826 ; females, 622 ; total, 2,448. 
 
 4499. Therefore,
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 419 
 
 4499. Therefore, from the figures which you ha^e just given the Committee^ Mr. C. A. Keene. 
 
 the re-committals are at about the rate of 50 per cent. ? , , , ■„„ 
 
 ^ 2(1 Mav 186.3. 
 Yes. -' 
 
 4.500. Do not you consider that a very high proportion ? 
 
 Exceechngly high. 
 
 4tO 1 . Has that nmnber been increasing or diminishing ? 
 It has been increasing. 
 
 4.50 J. Can you state vv^hat the increase of crime has been of recent years, and 
 from what period that increase dates ? 
 
 My experience would not go beyond 12 months in Leeds. 
 
 45(13. Do you think that these figures show that the system, as pursued at 
 Leeds, is practically answering its purpose ? 
 
 It would not appear so from that statement ; but I think that the opening of 
 saloons and pviblic-houses, and places of that sort, has sent a great number of 
 young men to prison. 
 
 4.504. Is it possible to suppose, from this number, that the gaol, as admi- 
 nistered under its present system, exercises a very deterrent effect ? 
 
 It would not appear so from the nmnber of re-committals. * 
 
 4,5"5- Would it not, therefore, be probable that some part of the system might 
 be erroneous ? 
 
 Possibly it may be so. 
 
 4506. Earl Cathcurt.] You stated, did you not, that a great many cases of 
 committal to your prison arose from drunkenness ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 45: '7. You do not suppose that the influence of prison discipline would 
 check ch'unkenness in any material degree ; if a man is an habitual cfrunkard, 
 when he goes out of prison he would get drunk, and come back again, would he 
 not? 
 
 Yes ; I think that the shutting up of those places which I have refeiTed to 
 would tend more to diminish the number of prisoners than the discipUne which 
 the}^ would receive in prison. 
 
 4.508. C/iairman.l^ Do you mean that a large proportion of prisoners ai*e com- 
 mitted to prison for the mere act of drunkenness, or do you mean that the act 
 of drunkenness on their part led them into the commission of other crimes and 
 oflfences, such as assaults and the like, which ended in their committal to prison ? 
 
 I mean that the increased number of prisoners arises from drunkenness, and 
 from the effects of drmikenness, such as assaidts and other disoi'derly conduct. 
 
 4.509. WiU )-ou be good enough to state the numbers of prisoners committed 
 to Leeds Gaol simply for the offence of being found drunk in the streets ? 
 
 There were 493 commitments for di'unkenness and 105 for breaches of the 
 Wine Licenses Act, the 23d of the Queen, chapter 27- 
 
 4510. Has vagrancy increased, in your opinion ? 
 There is a slight increase in this year's return. 
 
 4 .5 1 1 . Has larceny inci'eased ? 
 To a slight extent. 
 
 45 • 2. Have assaults increased ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4.513. Have offences under the head of wilfid damage increased? 
 Yes, imder that head also. 
 
 4.514. Have more persons been taken up as reputed thieves than formerly ? 
 
 I cannot answer that question positively ; I thmk their numbers have a Uttle 
 increased. 
 
 451 .5. In point of fact, there has been a general increase of crime ? 
 Yes, there has. 
 
 4.5 1 6. The number of re-coimnittals I gather from your evidence is somewhat 
 larger tliis year than it was in previous years ? 
 Yes. 
 
 (37. 14.) 3 G 2 ^517, There
 
 420 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mr. a A. Ke«ne. 4,') I 7- There has been, therefore, a proportionate rise in the re-cominittals 
 
 and in the amount of crime in Leeds arenerallv '- 
 
 2d May 1863. yes. 
 
 ' 4')\S. I understand from this table which you have placed in my hands, that 
 
 in the year 1856 the total number of committals was 1,326 ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4519. In 1857 it had risen to 1,648, in 1858 to 1,910, in 1859 to 1,866, in 
 1860 to 1,848, in 1861 to 2,420, and in 1862 to 2,448? 
 Yes, that is so. 
 
 4.t20. "What punishments are enforced in your gaol for minor prison offences? 
 The light and dark solitary cell fi-om one to three days. 
 
 4521 . Do you have recourse to stoppage of diet ? 
 
 In a very few cases indeed ; in some slight cases I might stop a man's supper, 
 but the cases would be few : that used to be a ver}' common i)unishment, but 
 this year I have kept strictly to the light and dark solitary cell, with the excep- 
 tion of very few cases ; there might not be a dozen cases of stoppage of diet in 
 the whole 12 months. 
 
 4522. Do 3'ou find that either the light or the dark solitary cell is an effective 
 punishment ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4,523. Do the prisoners ever repeat an offence after having been shut up in 
 
 those cells ? 
 
 Some of them will commit the offence again, but at the same time they do not 
 
 at all like the punishment. 
 
 4 -,24. Do you make any use of corporal punishment ? 
 Not since I bave been there. 
 
 4525. It has been disused for many years ? 
 
 I am aware that it has been disused for a great number of years. 
 
 4 j26. Have you practicaUy so far disused it that you would never use it on 
 any occasion ? 
 
 I do not think the magistrates would sanction it. 
 
 4527. Are you aware of what their feeling is on that subject, and on what 
 grounds the^' have abandoned it ? 
 
 No ; I believe that they have a strong feeling against it. 
 
 4528. From your experience, are you at all aware what the effect of corporal 
 punishment is ? * 
 
 As far as I am concerned, I think that corjwral punishment is a very good 
 
 punishment with regard to juveniles. 
 
 4.529. My question had reference to offences against prison disciphne, breaches 
 
 of prison rules ? 
 
 1 think in extreme cases it might be adopted, but only in extreme cases. 
 
 4530. Would 3-0U, from yom' experience, be wiUing to abandon the power of 
 making use of coiijoral punishment ? 
 
 No, I should wish to retain it, undoubtedly. 
 
 4,531 . What is the diet which is in force in Leeds Gaol ? 
 
 I have not a copy of the diet table with me; but it is not the official 
 dietarj'. 
 
 4532. Is it hisher or lower than the official diet^iry issued by the Home 
 Office? 
 
 It is an extraonUuaril)' mixed diet. 
 
 4533. In what sense of the word do you mean that it is a mixed diet? 
 There are no two days alike ; it differs every day in the week. 
 
 4,534. How many classes have you ? 
 
 Five classes. 
 
 4.53.5. Do the classes, in point of time, correspond with the classes in the 
 
 official dietar}^ ? 
 
 I think not, - ., 
 
 4536. How
 
 2d May 1863. 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 421 
 
 4536. How often is meat given during the week to the highest class ? ,i/,.. c. A Kaun 
 It is given every day. 
 
 4537. From your experience of this dietarj-, is it your opinion that it is such 
 as is required by the wants of the prisoners, or that it is in excess ; or that it is 
 too low ? 
 
 I consider it rather a liberal diet, more liberal than the official dietarv ? 
 
 4538. Do you consider it too liberal ? 
 It is too liberal in one sense ; but by being so Uberal it keeps down the extra 
 
 allowances by the order of the surgeon ; perhaps the one may balance the 
 other. 
 
 45.39- Can you state to the Coimnittee the number of extra diets which were 
 issued last jear ? 
 I cannot. 
 
 4.540. Can you state what the ordinary number is ? 
 
 No, I cannot do that ; there are very few indeed upon extra diet, certainly not 
 more than an average of eight. 
 
 4541 . Earl of DudJei/.'] In what cases is extra diet given ? 
 Only by order of the surgeon,- for men losing strength, and falling off in 
 
 weight. 
 
 4542. Have you much sickness in your prison? 
 Very little indeed ; last year there was a great decrease of sickness. 
 
 4543. Is the position of the gaol in Leeds a sanitary one r 
 Quite so. 
 
 4544. Chairman.^ There is a system of intercommunication estabhshed, is 
 there not, between your gaol at Leeds and the Wakefield prison in order to 
 identify previously convicted prisoners ? 
 
 Yes." 
 
 4545. Will you state to the Committee whether }'ou have found that arrange- 
 ment very beneficial ? 
 
 I have found it very beneficial indeed, because on several occasions Avhen I 
 have gone over to Wakefield with our officers we have detected i)risoners who 
 were waiting for trial at the Wakefield Sessions, who would not otherwise have 
 been detected, and vice versa when they have visited Leeds. 
 
 4546. Are you aware whether it is a difficulty which is frequently experienced 
 in courts of law to prove a pre%'ious con^■iction / 
 
 I have experienced no difficulty at all in that respect. 
 
 4.547. Are you not aware that verj' often a prisoner is in the dock, and that 
 there is a moral certainty that he has been previously convicted, and yet that it 
 is impossible to prove it .' 
 
 Yes, we have been unable to find officers who coidd prove the pre\aous con- 
 viction. 
 
 4548. Does not this system of communication between two such gaols as 
 Leeds and Wakefield faciUtate the proof of such previous conviction ? 
 Greatly so. 
 
 4.549. How is that communication between your two gaols earned on? 
 
 Some three or four daj's previous to the Sessions being held, the governor of 
 Wakefield Prison will write to me, and ask me to send some of my officers over, 
 and I send three of my oldest officers, who have been longest in the prison, over 
 to Wakefield ; then the prisoners are draA\ai up and brought into the room one 
 by one, and several questions are asked them. 
 
 4550. Then you find that very often prisoners are identified by that means r 
 Yes ; I know no instance of going to Wakefield without being able to identify 
 
 one or two ; and sometimes half-a-dozen are identified. 
 
 4551. Are you of opinion that it would be a benefit if that system were 
 extended to other gaols ? 
 
 Yes, a very great benefit indeed. 
 
 (3;. 14.) 3 G 3 4552. Have
 
 422 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 M'. C. A. Ketne. 4552. Have you ever considered the propriety of extending it to some other 
 , ,;: ^.,, largre towns in your district r 
 I I liave not. 
 
 4553. Would there be any practical difficidty or objection to so doing? 
 
 I see none, except that it would draw off a number of officers from the prison 
 if they were continually moving about. Wakefield being so near Leeds, we have 
 no difficulty on that score. 
 
 4554. Earl of Romimj] Are the main objects sought for at Leeds the 
 reformation of individual prisoners, and the saving of cost, as far as possible ? 
 
 Quite so ; these are the two great objects. 
 
 4.555. Rather than the punishment of prisoners generally ? 
 
 Yes. Perhajis I may be allowed to remark, in the case of the Criminal Justice 
 Act, there are a considerable number of prisoners sentenced who, if they had 
 been remanded, some of their previous characters would have been found out. 
 I think that in such cases when any prisoner is committed, he should be fii'st 
 remanded to prison for a few days, in order to give time for that. If any clause 
 coidd be inserted in the Gaol Act, compelling prisoners to have their likeness 
 taken by photogTaph, it would have a very beneficial effect ; we do it in our 
 gaol. 
 
 4556. Earl of Dxidley^ Have you ever had any difficulty in getting a like- 
 ness ? 
 
 Only in one case. 
 
 4557. Did you take the man after aU ? 
 
 No, he was taken so very badly, indeed, that it was not of much use. 
 
 4558. Chairman^ Have you ever considered the possibility or the desirabihty 
 of affixing any mark upon a prisoner upon a second conviction, or upon his 
 being sentenced to penal servitude r 
 
 I think it would have a very good effect. 
 
 4559. How many hours in the 24 are devoted to sleep in yom- prison? 
 From half-past eight at night till fi\e in the morning, in winter and summer 
 
 alike. 
 
 4560-4575. Earl oi DudUi/^ Are the cells hghted with gas? 
 
 Yes, in the winter time. They are not hghted all night; a bell rings at 
 half-past eight, and the prisoners are allowed five minutes before the gas is put 
 out. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdi-aw. 
 
 Ordered, that this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, 
 
 at One o'clock.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 423 
 
 Die Martis. 5° Maii 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT; 
 
 Marquess of Salisbury. 
 LoED Steward. 
 Earl of Carnarvox. 
 Earl of RoMNET. 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 
 Viscount EVERSLEY. 
 Lord WODEHOUSE. 
 
 Lord Wensletdale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair. 
 
 MR. JOHN DAYTON is called in, and examined as follows : 
 
 4576. Chairman.] YOU are the Governor of the St. Albans Gaol, are you not ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4577. Ihat is a Liberty prison, is it not ? 
 Yes. 
 
 45 78. Will you state to the Committee what the extent of the Liberty is ? 
 
 I really do not know the extent ; I think it is something like 22 parishes, but 
 T will not be quite certain. 
 
 4579- What is the rule under which prisoners are sent to you ; do they in- 
 clude all persons who are committed from within that district r 
 Yt^s ; from within that Liberty. 
 
 45 So. And for all offences ? 
 
 No ; some are sent to the assizes ; capital charges are sent to the assizes. 
 I take all larcenies that are tried at the quarter sessions, but not the assize 
 cases ; those are sent to the county prison, 
 
 4,581. Will you state to the Committee the average number of prisoners in 
 your gaol ? 
 
 The average number for the last 18 months would be 50. 
 
 4582. What has been the highest number that you have ever had at a 
 time r 
 
 Sixty-three. 
 
 4,583. And what has been the lowest r 
 Twenty. 
 
 4584. What are the executive staff of the prison ? 
 
 I have four warders, a matron, a chaplain, and a surgeon. 
 
 4585. Out of the average of 50, what is the proportion of women to men ? 
 The average number of women would not be more, I should think, than 2 j; 
 
 taking the daily average, it would not be three. 
 
 4580. Is your gaol conducted on the separate system ? 
 No ; it is on the associated principle. 
 
 4587. Is it association for all the prisoners ? 
 
 1 have eight cells in which I can put certain classes of prisoners whom it is 
 desirable to keep separate from all but prisoners of the same stamp. 
 
 (37. 15.) 3 G 4 4588. Do 
 
 Evidence on 
 Prison Discipline. 
 
 Mr. J. Dayton, 
 
 5th May 1 863.
 
 424 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Jih. J. Dayton. 458S. Do you follow the clcissification of the Act of George the Fourth ? 
 As nearly as I can. 
 
 4.589. What is the size of those cells ? 
 
 I have not measured them ; I should think that the separate cells are ei^-ht 
 feet by six ; the larger wards are very large, and are capable of holding eight 
 
 51 ii ]NLiy 18G3. 
 
 or ten men. 
 
 4590. What is the largest number of prisoners that you ever had in associa- 
 tion at the same moment ? 
 
 I have had 1 1 within the last 12 months. 
 
 459'- Have you an}- cells set apart for the purposes of punishment for prison 
 oirences ? 
 Yes ; two. 
 
 45.Q2. Are they light or dark cells r 
 They are dark cells. 
 
 4593- Have you any rooms or cells which are appropriated for untried 
 prisoners ? 
 
 No ; we use the prison cells indiscriminatelv, and we class them out in the 
 best way that we are able. 
 
 4.594- Do you ever allow the tried and untried prisoners to associate ? 
 Never. 
 
 4595- Do you deal with debtors ? 
 No, they go to the county prison. 
 
 4596- "When the prisoners are in association, is there any officer on duty to 
 superintend them ? 
 
 No. 
 
 4,')97. Do not you think that would be an advantage ? 
 I think that it would be a very great advantage. 
 
 4.598. Is it, therefore, from the want of men that you disregard that 
 precaution r 
 
 There is no opportunity of doing so in a prison of this description ; it is an 
 old prison which was formerly the gate-house to the monastery, and there is a 
 difficulty in carrying out anything of that kind. 
 
 4.599. ^Vhat is the diet which you use in St. Albans ? 
 
 The diet is a pint of gruel and six ounces of bread in the morning ; a pint of 
 soup and six ounces of bread at dinner time, and a pint of gruel and six ounces 
 of bread for supper at night ; but there is to be an alteration in that dietary. 
 
 4600. Ts that for all classes of prisoners ? 
 
 There are some slight differences in the meals for those on hard labour. I 
 will hand our dietary to the Committee {deiiveri/ig in the same). 
 
 4601. I see by this table, that in the case of criminal prisoners awaiting 
 their trial, each man is allowed 106 ounces of bread, and 14 pints of gruel, and 
 4 pints of soup a week } 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4602. For the convicted, and not sentenced to hard labour, 168 ounces of 
 bread, 14 pints of gruel and 4 pints of soup, which is the same as for ciuminal 
 prisoners awaiting their trial f 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4603. Convicted prisoners who arc sentenced to hard labour during the first 
 week, are the same as those classes which I have just read ; but after the first 
 week, they have 224 ounces of bread, 14 pints of gruel, and 7 pints of soup. 
 Is that so ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4604. So that there is an increase made in the bread, and also to the extent 
 of three pints of soup during the week ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4605. What
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 425' 
 
 4605. What is the longest sentence with which you have to deal in St. Mi J Duuton 
 Albans r " J " 
 
 I have had them in prison for two years, but that is some years ago. I have •''^'^ ^^y 18G3. 
 two prisoners now sentenced for eighteen months. 
 
 4606. Do you find that this dietary is sufficient to sustain health ? 
 Hitherto I have considered that it has been, until recently ; within the last 
 
 five or six months, the men have gone back slightly. The attention of the 
 visiting magistrates was drawn to that subject, and they have increased the 
 dietary, at the suggestion of the prison inspector, to half a pound of potatoes 
 for those men who are in the receipt of two pounds of bread. 
 
 4607. But besides that, you allow no meat ? 
 
 The only meat that is supplied is three ounces in the soup daily. 
 
 4608. Do those three ounces of meat go to each pint ? 
 
 Three ounces of meat, free from bone, are allowed in the copper to each pint. 
 
 4609. And you are prepared now to make an addition of vegetables, are you 
 not? 
 
 Yes, that was commenced last week. 
 
 4610. 1 see that in one of the recent reports it is stated that the male 
 prisoners sleep upon the floor without any bedsteads, although there are 
 bedsteads vacant in the prison ; is such the case now ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4611. Will you explain to the Committee the reason of that? 
 
 They made use of them to effect their escape out of the old building, and they 
 were ordered to be taken down by the visiting justices. 
 
 4612. In what way were they made subservient to attempts at escape? 
 They took away the bolts of the bedsteads, and broke the bedsteads up. 
 
 4613. What are the bedsteads made of? 
 
 Of slight iron bars, with good firm stanchions. 
 
 4614. The bedsteads were removed in consequence of this attempt to escape? 
 Yes. 
 
 46 1 5. Are the windows barred ? 
 Yes, the windows are barred. 
 
 4616. Have you ever had any escape from the prison ? 
 Yes, several. 
 
 4617. To what do you attribute those escapes ? 
 
 To the weakness of the upper part of the building. They would go fi'om 
 their room into the chapel, and from there into the roof. The upper part of 
 the building is in a very dilapidated state ; it is simply lath and plaster, one 
 may call it. 
 
 4618. Consequentl}'^, in this Liberty prison at St. Alban's, you have very 
 little security for the custody of the prisoners ? 
 
 Very little. 
 
 4619. Is the floor of wood or of stone ? 
 
 The floors are wooden with the exception of the cells that I have been 
 speaking of; those are stone with wooden bedsteads about 6 inches from the 
 stone. 
 
 4620. Do the prisoners sleep together in dormitories ? 
 
 They sleep together in the large rooms with the exception of those cells. 
 
 4G2 1 . How many prisoners are there in a room r 
 
 T\wy vary from five to ten, it depends upon the number that we have in the 
 prison. 
 
 4622. Is there any one on guard during the night ? 
 
 There is a night warder, but he is allowed to go to bed ; he sleeps in the 
 interior of the prison, but he has no control whatever over the prisoners. 
 
 4623. In what sense has he no control ? 
 
 (37. 15.) 3 H He
 
 ^26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 3Jr. J. Dayton. He is debarred from going into the room. We cannot trust him to go into 
 5thAi;7iS6-, ;he room where eight or ten men are confined all night. He has simply to 
 ^ ^ ^' hear what noises may be taking place. 
 
 4624 When you say that you cannot trust him to go into the room, do you 
 mean that you could not answer that the prisoners would not commit some 
 violence upon him r 
 
 Yes, precisely ; that is my meaning. 
 
 4625. Have you ever had experience of such conduct on their part? 
 No ; but I have always been very guarded against a matterof tliat kind. 
 
 46^6. Is there a night-light burning in the room? 
 
 No, 
 
 4627. What is the labour which you have in use in your prison ? 
 The treadwheel for raising spring-water for the supply of the prisoners, 
 beating and picking oakum, and knitting stockings for the use of the prison. 
 
 ^628. Have j'ou the crank ? 
 
 No. 
 
 4629. How many men do you employ upon the treadwheel at the same time? 
 We can place twelve on. 
 
 4630. How many are sufficient to work the wheel? 
 We work it with two classes of six. 
 
 463 1 . Have you ever found that your numbers have been so short that you 
 have had difficulty in working the wheel ? 
 
 Not so, because we can throw it out of the gear, and work it with two or 
 three men. 
 
 4632. Have you a chapel attached to the gaol ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4633. Have you a chaplain ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4634. I observed in one of the earlier reports it was stated that it was the 
 practice in the prison to dry the clothes of the prisoners inside the chapel ; was 
 that so ? 
 
 It was so at that time. 
 
 4635. Has that practice been altered ? 
 Yes, the clothes are all sent away now. 
 
 4636. What was the reason of that arrangement? 
 
 The Government inspector of prisons wished me to lay the matter before the 
 visiting justices, and I did so, and they ordered the clothing all to be taken 
 away from the prison, and washed and cleansed and brought home weekly. 
 
 4637. How many visiting justices are there? 
 Eleven now. 
 
 4638. How often do they attend to inspect the prison ? 
 
 They meet monthly, and they visit several times within the month. 
 
 463q. Earl Cathcart.l Do those associated prisoners make a great noise in 
 the room at night ? 
 Yes, sometimes. 
 
 4640. There are ten together, I think 1 understood you to say 1 
 Yes. 
 
 4(141 . What is the duty of the watchman in case of a riot in those rooms ? 
 To make it known to me directly. 
 
 4642- In consequence of that report to you, what do you do ? 
 The lower doors are made secure, and I go into tlie room with an officer 
 or two. 
 
 4643. And YOU then quell the disturbance and leave them again ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4644. Do
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 427 
 
 4644. Do the prisoners ever assault each other ? Mr. J. Dayton. 
 Not at night, but in the day-time they have quarrels, in meal hours. Jj— 
 
 4645. Is a prisoner ever severely beaten by the other prisoners • 
 
 No. 
 
 4646. With regard to the cost of diet, do you know the nature of the diet in 
 the county gaol and house of correction ? 
 
 I think it is what they consider to be the Gor\'ernment dietary. I am not 
 sure. 
 
 4647. That is a better dietary than yours, is it not ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4648. How do you account for the great difference there is in the cost of the 
 diet, because in the county house of correction the cost of the diet is only 
 71. 9s. 6d. per head, whereas in your prison it is 12/. 9s. 2d. ? 
 
 Our goods are contracted for, and there is very little opposition in the trading 
 part of the community. We do not use a verj' great deal, and they charge us 
 almost what they like, although they send in contracts ; and we have no profit- 
 able employment in the prison. 
 
 4649. The price per head in the county house of correction is 7/. 95. 6d. 
 with a superior diet, and in yours, with an inferior diet, the cost is 12/. 9s. 2d. 
 How would you account for the difference ? 
 
 I cannot account for it, except that the maintenance is considerably dearer 
 at our place than it would be in the county prison. 
 
 4650. Is the diet inferior ? 
 
 The diet is considered to be inferior. I have never seen it in use, but I 
 have understood it to be so. 
 
 4651 . 12/. 9s. 2d. is about the highest rate of all prisons, is it not ? 
 I am not able to say. 
 
 4652. Earl of Romney.'] Do you advertise for tenders for goods supplied to 
 the prison? 
 
 Yes, but we scarcely ever have more than one tender of a sort sent in. 
 
 4653. Lord Lyvtden.'l It would seem that it is generally pretty well under- 
 stood amongst the tradesmen ? 
 
 Yes, it appears to be so. 
 
 4654. Earl of Romney P[ Perhaps you could buy the articles as cheap in the 
 market ? 
 
 Yes, I think we could. 
 
 4655. Earl Cathcart.] Is your clothing of an expensive character ? 
 No. We pay 16 s. a suit, and I do not consider that too much. 
 
 4656. Marquess of Salisbury.) Do you always put your prisoners in the gaol 
 clothing ? 
 
 Yes, with the exception of those prisoners committed for trial who are desirous 
 of wearing their own clothes. 
 
 4657. All convicted prisoners, I presume, do wear the prison clothing? 
 Yes. 
 
 4658. Chairman.'] Occasionally it happens, does it not, that you have a pri- 
 soner who has been re-convicted many times, and who belongs to the hardened 
 class of offenders ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4659. And occasionally it happens that such a man is very mutinous and 
 refractory ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4660. How do you deal with such a prisoner ? 
 
 I punish him by placing him in solitary confinement for not more than three 
 days ; perhaps I repeat that twice or thrice, and then if it does not have the 
 desired effect, I take him before the visiting justices. 
 
 46G1. And what follows then ? 
 
 (37.15.) 3 H 2 Then
 
 SlhMay 1863. 
 
 428 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 MTr. J. Dai/ton. Then they punish him by an increase of punishment, say a week or fortnight, 
 or they whip him. 
 
 4662. In what cells is he locked up ? 
 
 Away from all the others, in one of those separate cells that I have men- 
 tioned. 
 
 4663. What is the size of those separate cells ? 
 1 think about eight feet by six feet. 
 
 4664. How long do you keep him in confinement ? 
 Until he is seen by the visiting justices ; and if he is ordered to be further 
 
 imprisoned, he is kept there during that period, whatever it may be. 
 
 4C65. In Avhat state is the ventilation of those cells? 
 
 The ventilation of those cells is very good ; there are ventilation pipes through 
 all those cells. 
 
 4666. But those cells are not much more than two-thirds of the size of the 
 ordinary cell, as certified by the inspector ? 
 
 I do not know how that may be ; they have not been constructed many 
 years. 
 
 4667. How frequently during the course of the year have you had recourse 
 to corporal punishment i 
 
 I think during the last year not more than twice or thrice ; I think I have 
 twice called in the visiting justices. 
 
 4668. Have you a surgeon attached to the gaol ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4669. Have you a sick ward or an infirmary ? 
 We have a large room that we set apart for an infirmary. 
 
 4670. How many hours of labour do you give to the prisoners ? 
 At this time of the year and for the next four months, we shall give them. 
 
 Bight hours. 
 
 4671. The tread-wheel, as I understand, is the only hard labour upon which 
 they are employed r 
 
 The only hard labour ; the other labour is beating and picking oakum. 
 
 4672. Do you continue the tread- wheel in the case of men sentenced to 18 
 months' confinement ? 
 
 I should do so, but that would rest entirely with the medical officer. 
 
 4673. You would judge of that by the state of his health ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4674. You stated just now, that escapes have been frequently attempted and 
 occasionally with success ? 
 
 Yes, in one or two instances ; previous to 1858 we had several, and some of 
 the men who have gone through the roof of the building, have not yet been 
 re-captured, although others have been. 
 
 467.5. Do you attribute that to the want of numbers and efficiency in the 
 staff which you have at your disposal, or do you attribute it exclusively to the 
 state of disrepair into which the gaol has fallen r 
 
 Exclusively to the state in which the old building is. 
 
 4676. Have you ever had any thing like outbreaks amongst the prisoners ? 
 
 No. 
 
 4677. No mutinous conduct r 
 
 No. 
 
 4675. Has the condition of this gaol been frequently the subject of the 
 Inspector s reports r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4679. Earl of Dudhy.] Has anything been done in consequence ? 
 Yes, the magistrates are now about to erect a new building ; they are getting 
 in the plans now, and are in communication with several prison architects. 
 
 4660. Chairman.~\
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 429 
 
 4680. Chairman.'] Do they propose to rebuild it entirely, or to alter it? Mr. J. Tiayton. 
 To rebuild it entirely on a fresh site; the site has been purchased, and it io ^ 
 
 to be upon the separate principle. ^^ ^ '^y ^ '3- 
 
 4681. How long have you held the appointment of Governor of the gaol? 
 Twenty-three years. 
 
 4682. Have you ever been engaged in any other capacity in any prison? 
 No. 
 
 4683. Have you had any experience of other prisons ? 
 I cannot say that I have. 
 
 4684. Do you consider that the state of t^ie Liberty Gaol of St. Alban's is a 
 satisfactory state with regard to the maintenance of discipline, and the effective 
 control which you can maintain over the prisoners ? 
 
 Not so much so as I could wish. 
 
 468,5. What do you consider would be necessary to bring that prison 'into 
 consonance with your notion of what is right? 
 
 I do not think that could be done in its present state. 
 
 4686. Do you not believe that there would always be a difficulty, where the 
 number of prisoners are so small, in dealing with them economically, and at the 
 same time efficiently ? 
 
 I do not think that I could deal with them efficiently, for taking the whole 
 building in its present state, I do not think it is possible to carry out any degree 
 of discipline at all, night or day. 
 
 4687. You stated that you had four warders ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4688. AVill you be good enough to state to the Committee, what the amount 
 of pay is which is issued to those men ? 
 
 They have 1 /. a week, each of them, with the exception of the chief warder, 
 and he has 65 /. a year. 
 
 4689. What proportion of these warders sleep in the prison ? 
 
 The chief warder has a house, and one of the sub-warders sleeps in the 
 prison. 
 
 4690. And those two men and yourself are the only three officers that are 
 in the prison at night ? 
 
 Yes, we are the only three officers in the prison at night ; we have no bound- 
 : ary wall ; but there is a night watchman outside, walking round. 
 
 4691. Is there no exterior wall ? 
 No. 
 
 4692. When it becomes necessary, in consequence of the ill health of a 
 prisoner, to give him open air exercise, how do you provide for it ? 
 
 He is sent into one of the airing-yards vnth an officer. 
 
 4693. Have you an airing-yard r 
 Yes, we have three airing-yards. 
 
 4694. Earl Cathcart.'] It has been lately stated, in a very widely-circulated 
 journal, that bribery prevails to a great extent in prisons ; did you ever know a 
 case where a prisoner, or the relations or friends of a prisoner endeavoured to 
 bi'ibe a warder ? 
 
 No, not in my prison. 
 
 4695. Chairman-] Have you ever known of the introduction of prohibited 
 articles of food through any of the prison officers ! 
 
 No, not through any of the officers. 
 
 4696. Have you ever known of their introduction at all ? 
 
 Some years ago I have known it done through the friends of the prisoners, 
 but not of late years. 
 
 4697. What means of communication had the prisoners with their friends? 
 They brought the prohibited article secreted in their dress, and tried to pass 
 
 them when visiting the prisoners. 
 
 (37. IS.) 3 H 3 4698. Are
 
 430 MIXUTiiS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 ^, ^ ^ 4608. Are a prisoner's friends allowed to pay him visits ? 
 
 Mr.J^yton. Yg^, at Certain times. 
 
 5ti t-Jay 18 63. 4699. How frequently, and after what period of confinement ? 
 ~ The convicted male prisoners are allowed to be seen at the expiration of three 
 
 months of their time, and once- every subsequent two months. 
 
 4700. What are the arrangements under which they are seen ? 
 
 Now they are brought into one of the airing -yards, and are seen through the 
 bars of a small office, so that it is quite impossible that anything can be 
 introduced without the officer present seeing and knowing that such is the case. 
 
 4701 . How frequently do the men go to the chapel ? 
 Every morning. 
 
 4702. Earl Cathcart.'j What do men do at night for tlie necessities ot 
 nature ? 
 
 They have a closet in every room with the exception of one ; there is one 
 closet to two large rooms, and in the one room without the closet those mea 
 who cannot get to the closet have a night convenience taken in. 
 
 4703. Does not that make the room very disagreeable r 
 That room it does. 
 
 4704. Almost unbeax'able, I presume. 
 I should say almost unbearable. 
 
 4705. Chairman.~\ The Committee understand, from what you have stated 
 to them, that communications pass quite freely between prisoner and prisoner r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4706. Have you ever become aware of the injurious results of that commu- 
 nication ? 
 
 I have not become aware of it ; I have understood that such has been the 
 case, but I could not say so from the sources which I have heard it from ; I could 
 not say that there was any truth in it, nor could one rely upon the source 
 from whence we obtain the information ; but I have no doubt in my own mind 
 that plans are concocted, and things carried out iu the rooms that we have no 
 control over. 
 
 4707. Do you not think that it is probable that a prisoner who may be sent 
 in there for a first conviction may, through associating with a previously con- 
 victed prisoner, be very easily contaminated ? 
 
 I do think so, and I am always very anxious to pi-event that prisoner from 
 associating with any others of the bad class. 
 
 4708. You endeavour to neutralise it as far as lies in your power, by classifi- 
 cation ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4709. But you do not believe that the classification is altogether eflfective ? 
 No, it is not effective. 
 
 4710. Earl of Dudley.'] You have no real and proper separation, as I under- 
 stand r 
 
 Ko ; I have eight cells, and these I chiefly keep for juveniles, and prisoners 
 committed for trial; that is all the separation that we have. Within the last 
 three or four months I have had seven prisoners under sentence of penal ser- 
 vitude, and those prisoners I was compelled to i)lace in those cells. 
 
 47 n. But then they again, at certain times of the year, have free access to 
 the other prisoners, Iiave they not ? 
 No, 1 keep them entirely separate. 
 
 4712. But during any portion of the day, during chapel hours, or anything 
 of that sort, cannot they get to the other prisoners ? 
 
 Only during chapel, and tlien no communication can take place without its 
 being seen. 
 
 4713. Earl CV/Z/iaa'/.] Is there anytliing to prevent two prisoners being in 
 one bed, or have they each a si parate bed '. 
 
 They have each a sej)arate bed, but there is nothing to prevent them from 
 placing two beds together. 
 
 4714. Have
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 431 
 
 4714. Have you ever had any charges of a disgraceful and felonious cha- Mr. J. Dujjf.on. 
 
 racter r 
 
 \q_ Sit May 1863. 
 
 4715. Earl of Dudley.'] Have you any means of knowing it if it does go on ? 
 No, certainly not ; but I have never heard of any complaint of the kind. 
 
 4716. Chairman.'] You wish the Committee to understand,, that under cir- 
 cumstances such as you have described, it is almost impossible for you to dis- 
 charge your duty in a manner satisfactory to yourself ? 
 
 I feel that it is so. 
 
 4717. iNIarquess of ;S«feiw^.] Has ther^ been an estimate made of the 
 expenditure necessary for the new gaol ? 
 
 I am not aware whether the estimates have been brought before the Jus- 
 tices ; but I know that they are about to write to different architects upon the 
 subject. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 MR. GEORGE WHITEHALL is called in, and examined as follows : Mr. G- Whitehall. 
 
 4718. ChairmaJi.] YOU are Governor of the Poole Borough prison, are 
 you not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4719. How long have you held the appointment of Governor r 
 Four years. 
 
 47-0. What office did you fill previously 1 
 
 I was five years and three months in Winchester Gaol, and thi'ee years and 
 five months in Southampton Gaol, as one of the chief warders of Southampton 
 Gaol. 
 
 4721. ^Miat office did you fill in Winchester Gaol? 
 I was assistant warder there. 
 
 4722. What are the average number of prisoners who are confined in Poole 
 Gaol ? 
 
 About two. 
 
 4723. What is the largest number that you have ever had at the same time ? 
 Eleven. 
 
 4724. And what has been the smallest number that you have ever had ? 
 Twice during the four years since I have been there it has been empty for 
 
 eight days. 
 
 4725. What number of warders have you under you ? 
 There are only myself and the matron. 
 
 47:6. Have you no one besides yourself? 
 No other warder. 
 
 4727. The matron looks after the female side, I presume ? 
 Yes, the matron looks after the female side. 
 
 4728. Are the prisoners confined in separate cells? 
 
 There are seven sleeping cells, and a day room for the prisoners in which 
 they associate. 
 
 4729. What is the size of the sleeping-cells ? 
 Eleven feet long and six feet wide. 
 
 4730. Do you ever confine the prisoners for the whole of the day and the 
 whole of the night in those cells ? 
 
 Not unless they are confined for refractory conduct. 
 
 473 1 . Do you ever receive into your prison prisoners who are convicted at 
 the assizes ? 
 
 No. 
 
 (37. 15.) 3 H 4 4732. You
 
 432 MINUTES OF EVinENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mi: G. Whitehall. A12>-- ^'^^^ receive only those who are convicted at tlie quarter sessions? 
 Yes. 
 
 5th May 1863. 
 
 4733. What is the longest sentence with which 3'on have to deal? 
 Nine months ; three months hefore trial and six months after. 
 
 4734. Would there be any reason why a prisoner should not be committed 
 to the Poole Borough Gaol for 1 8 months or two years ? 
 
 I do not see any myself. 
 
 4735- ^^ hat quarter sessions send you your prisoners ? 
 They are sent to the Poole quarter sessions. 
 
 4736. What are the average nuiflber of prisoners that are tried at the Poole 
 quarter sessions ? 
 
 One, and two, and sometimes there have been three. 
 
 4737. Marquess of Salisburi/.^ What is the population of Poole. 
 About ten thousand. 
 
 4738. Chairman. 1 When you have as many as 11 or 12 prisoners in the gaol, 
 has it ever happened that amongst them there has been a refractory prisoner ? 
 
 ]Vo, there has not. 
 
 4739. It might be so, I suppose. 
 It might be so, of course. 
 
 4740. How would you be able to deal with such a case by yourself without 
 the assistance of any other warders 1 
 
 I should immediately then communicate with the police ; the police station 
 is about 100 yards from the prison ; I have the mayor's authority for so doing. 
 
 4741 . Have you ever had any attempts at escape : 
 Yes. 
 
 4742. Have those attempts ever been successful? 
 Yes. 
 
 4743. How frequently ? 
 Once. 
 
 4744. How did the prisoner escape ? 
 
 A sister of mine was appointed recently as matron of the gaol, in conse- 
 quence of the death of my wife, who had been principal warder of Winchester 
 gaol, and knew the duties of the office, but one day my sister neglected to bring 
 the key into our room, and hung it up in the office, which the prisoner had 
 access to, and he took the key and went out through the garden. 
 
 4745. Earl of Romney.'] Was he the only prisoner there at that time ? 
 
 It happened to be so then ; he was re-captured in seven days afterwards. 
 
 4746. Chairman.'] Have you ever had any violence shown by any prisoner ? 
 Not since I have been there. 
 
 4747. Have you ever known of it? 
 I have never heard of such a case. 
 
 474IS. When you have more than one or two prisoners in gaol, do they sleep 
 in separate cells, or have you any dormitory ? 
 
 They sleep in separate cells ; there are seven cells, and if there are more than 
 seven prisoners in the gaol I sleep them three together. 
 
 4749. Where do those three together sleep ? 
 They sleep in one of the cells. 
 
 47,'',o. Do you mean to say that those three i)risoners would sleep in one of 
 those small cells which you have described ? 
 Yes, that is where we have placed them once. 
 
 4751. Is there room for more than one bed? 
 I place two beds there on those occasions. 
 
 4752. Did those three prisoners sleep in one bed ? 
 
 One night they slept on the two beds placed side by side ; it only occurred so 
 one night. 
 
 4753. Three
 
 5tli May i 863. 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 433 
 
 4753. Three prisoners slept in one bed in this small cell ? Mr. G. Whitehall. 
 Yes, one night three prisoners slept on two beds placed side by side. 
 
 4754. But that might happen again, if from any accident the prison hap- 
 pened to be full ? 
 
 It never has been so during the four years that I have been there. 
 
 4755. During the day, are the prisoners associated together r 
 They are. 
 
 4756. Do you associate together all classes of prisoners, whether they have 
 been untried, or whether they have been tried ? 
 
 No ; there is a debtors' ward, and if the debtors' ward is empty I do not then 
 associate them together ; but if there happens to be a debtor in prison I should 
 be compeUed then to associate them togerher, unless the female ward was empty. 
 
 4757. The untried and the tried together ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4758. Would you be obliged, under any circumstances, to associate to- 
 gether a prisoner re-convicted for felony with a misdemeanant ? 
 
 If there happened to be a debtor in the prison I should then be obliged to 
 associate them together. 
 
 4759- You have only one room for the purpose ? 
 
 There is a debtors' ward and a criminal ward, but I should have to associate 
 them together. 
 
 4760. You have only one common room besides the debtors' part? 
 That is all. 
 
 4761 . Have you ever seen any mischief resulting from this association, either 
 by day or by night ? 
 
 I never have. 
 
 4762. Have you ever heard of any mischief? 
 No, I have not. 
 
 4763. It is stated in one of the recent reports that the female rooms of the 
 prison are approached by a dangerous staircase, and are very close and un- 
 wholesome ; is that the case ? 
 
 That is the most unwholesome part that there is. 
 
 4764. Are the female ro(Jms separated from the men's side ? 
 They are. 
 
 4765. How are they separated? 
 It is a distinct ward from the male ward altogether. 
 
 4766. Is it possible for an}'' communication to pass ? 
 No, it is impossible for there to be any communication. The sleeping cells 
 
 on the women's side are 12 feet by 12. 
 
 4767. Is the staircase in a very dangerous condition ? 
 It is not dangerous ; but it comes down so very steep, that if any one does 
 
 not mind how he comes down, he is liable to fall from the top to the bottom. 
 
 4768. Is there any ventilation for those female wards ? 
 Each of the windows lets down, and we can take the window away altogether, 
 
 so that there is a current of air right through. 
 
 4769. Do you ever do that ? 
 We always make them take down those windows every morning, so that thej 
 
 get the open air. 
 
 4770. Do you make them take down the windows, and sleep without them? 
 No, they are up at night, and we take them down in the day time ; there are 
 
 two windows, one is a glass casement, and the other is an iron casing. 
 
 4771. Marquess of Salisburij.'] You mean that you have iron bars beyond 
 the glass ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 (37. 16-) 3 I 4772. Chairman.'^
 
 434 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mt. G. Whitehall. 4773- Chairman.^ What means of labour have you in the prison ? 
 — — The wheel labour and pickina; oakum. 
 
 5th May 1863. 
 
 _ 4773- Is tliat the only form of labour ? 
 
 That is the only form. 
 
 4774. Who sets the prisoners their task at the oakum ? 
 I do. 
 
 4775. How many men are necessary to turn the wheel ? 
 I can put one, the pressure for one or for four. 
 
 4776. Can one man turn the wheel ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4777. Do you work the tread wheel with one ? 
 Yes. 
 
 477(S. How many hours labour do you give him ? 
 Seven and a half hours. 
 
 4779. Earl of Dudley. 1 Do you stand and watch himf 
 
 Yes, I am there ; sometimes I am obliged to leave if there happens to be 
 a ring at the gate, and my sister was out of the way. 
 
 4780. And the prisoner leaves too, I suppose ? 
 
 No ; because I am not away above a minute or so at the gate, because the 
 yard is close to it, and 1 only have to unlock the gate. 
 
 4781 . Chairman.'] Does he not probably stop, wliilst you are away ? 
 
 He cannot stop, because I should hear directly by the motion of the wheel, 
 whether it was stopped or no. 
 
 4782. At any rate, you are in constant attendance, with that one single 
 exception ? 
 
 Yes, I am. I stand there all the time that he is on the wheel, or at least I 
 walk up and down. 
 
 4783. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Who is in charge of the prison at this moment? 
 The police and the matron. 
 
 4784. How many prisoners were there in your prison when you left? 
 There were four when I came away. I have just taken one boy to a 
 
 reformatory for two years. 
 
 4785. You occasionally leave the prison, and go out of doors, do you not ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4786. How do you provide for the custody of the prisoners while you are 
 absent ? 
 
 They are locked up in the yard. 
 
 4787. What is the height of the wall ? 
 Twenty-two feet. 
 
 4788. Is there an outside wall running round the building? 
 Yes, there is sharp glass placed round the wall. 
 
 4789. Earl of Romneii.'] Do the prisoners' friends throw tobacco over the wall r 
 Not often. 
 
 4790. What is the diet that you give the prisoners? 
 The same class as that at the Dorchester County Gaol. 
 
 4791. Have you got a table of the dietary with you? 
 Yes, I think 1 have {producing the same). 
 
 4792. How do you provide for the diet being served out to the prisoners in 
 accordance with this classification ? 
 
 It is contracted for. 
 
 4793. Who contracts for it? 
 
 A person in the town, one of the innkeepers. 
 
 4794. What is the contract ? 
 
 bs. &d.& head per week. 
 
 4795. And
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 435 
 
 4795. And he contracts to send in food to the prison according to those Mr. G. Whitehall. 
 classes ? - — 
 
 Yes, according to those classes. 5tli May 1863. 
 
 4796. How does he know to which class the prisoners belong ; do you com- 
 municate witii him ? 
 
 Yes, I communicate with him. 
 
 4797. Is there a surgeon attached to the gaol ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4798. What salary does he receive r 
 £. 1 5 a year. 
 
 4799. Do you mean to say that he is in constant attendance on the gaol? 
 He calls twice a week, and whenever a prisoner comes in, I communicate with 
 
 him, and he comes down and sees the man, to see whether he is fit for wheel 
 labour or not. 
 
 4800. Is there a chaplain attached to the gaol ? 
 
 He is not appointed, but he comes in every Friday to see the prisoners. 
 
 4801. Who is he? 
 
 The Rector of St. James'. 
 
 4802. That is the principal parish I presume ? 
 Yes, tliat is the principal parish in Poole. 
 
 4803. I see that in one of the previous reports it is stated, that the prison- 
 books when looked at by the inspector, were unintelligible to him, have you 
 got a copy of those accounts with you ? 
 
 No ; these forms which I hold in my hand are different from those the inspector 
 has seen. I do not know whether it is two or three years since I have seen the 
 inspector. I could not be quite positive which, without referring to the book. 
 
 4804. Have you a sheet showing the system on which the accounts are kept ? 
 No ; the only account that is kept is of the number of days that a prisoner 
 
 is in, and the amount at 5s. 6^/. per week; that is the only account that is 
 required to be kept ; a man is in, say, for six " eeks at 55. 6 1/. a week. 
 
 4805. Earl Cathcart.] The innkeeper's bill is the only account ? 
 That is the only account. 
 
 4806. Chairman.'] When is your account made up ? 
 
 Every six months ; the last account for the six months was 27 1, -s. 3d. 
 
 4807. In winter, I presume it is necessary to have fuel for the fire ? 
 Yes, that is shown in the returns that are sent to the Home OlKce. 
 
 4808. To what account is that carried ; how is it charged? 
 To the visiting justices ; their clerk checks all those accounts. 
 
 4809. How can the magistrate's clerk be aware of the number of tons of 
 coal which are brought into the prison, and the quantity which is used ? 
 
 The bills all come in to me ; 1 look them over, and then I pass them on to 
 him, and then he checks them, and forwards them to the town clerk, to be 
 submitted to the finance committee. 
 
 4810. Marquess oi SaUsbiiiy.] Who gives the order ? 
 I give the order for the coals. 
 
 4S11. Chairman.] How is the washing of the prisoners' clothes, and the 
 prison linen carried on ? 
 
 If there are no females in, I employ some one to wash. 
 
 48 1 2. How is the cleaning of the prison itself effected ? 
 
 The men keep the prison clean, if there are any ; it would be quite enough 
 for a man to do to keep it clean. 
 
 4813- Earl Cathcart.'] Have you any prison clothing? 
 Yes. 
 
 4814. Does it ever happen that the prisoners are left locked up altogether 
 by themselves without anybody being in charge of them at all ? 
 No ; we cannot leave, because the key is inside. 
 
 (37. 15.) 3 I 2 4815. I understand
 
 oth May 1863. 
 
 436 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mr. G. Whitehall. 4815- I understand that you leave a woman there in case you go out ? 
 My sister is left in the prison, and then the prisoners are locked up. 
 
 4816. Is there a county police lock-up in the town ? 
 There is a borough lock-up. 
 
 4817. Marquess oi Salisbury.'] Which is the largest, the gaol or the borough 
 police lock-up ? 
 
 Ihe goal. 
 
 4818. Lord Wodthouse.] Do the borough magistrates ever visit the gaol in 
 the ordinary way ? 
 
 Once a month ; I may observe that the yards in which the prisoners walk are 
 36 feet long by 54 feet wide, and the day room that they associate in is 15 
 feet by 12. 
 
 4819. Earl of Itortmei/.l How far is it from Poole to Dorchester? 
 Twenty-six miles ; and the cost for the conveyance of two prisoners down 
 
 there keeps one man in Poole gaol for a mouth ; it costs the iDorough in six 
 years for the conveyance of 72 men, and their keep down there, 450 /. ; 
 whereas for the same term it would have cost them in the borough gaol 172 /. 
 for 182 men. 
 
 4820. Has the inspector ever complained of the want of efficiency, or want 
 of control in your gaol ? 
 
 He has never complained when he has been round with me ; at one time 
 when he has been round, I happened to have one female in, and I think the 
 next time lie came round there was one male in ; I think he has been twice 
 during the four years. 
 
 4821. Has he ever made any suggestions to you for the improvement of the 
 prison ? 
 
 Never ; he stated once that the inside ofthe prison looked a great deal better 
 than the outside ; which has since been attended to ; for there was a great 
 deal of glass on the top of the wall, with a great deal of vegetation on the top, 
 which w ante.d cleaning off, and that has been cleaned off, and the wall has been 
 reglassed. 
 
 4822. Are you aware whether the subject of the condition of the gaol has 
 ever been considered by the visiting justices ? 
 
 No. 
 
 4823. Earl of X)«^%.] Do they seem quite satisfied with the existing state 
 of things ? 
 
 Yes ; so far as their report in the visiting justices' book goes. 
 
 4824. C/iairman.'] Do they state that it is a satisfactory condition of things ? 
 Yes, and so does the recorder ; every three months the recorder visits us, 
 
 and he goes through the gaol. The magistrates visit us once a month. 
 
 4825. Lord IFcnsleydale.] What is your salary ? 
 £. GO for me and my wife, with a house to live in, and coals. 
 
 4826. Have you any rations ? 
 
 No. 
 
 4827. Earl of Eonmcy.] Are the prisoners pretty well contented when they 
 are in your prison ? 
 
 I have heard females say that they would much rather be in Dorchester 
 Gaol than in Poole Gaol, because there are very few females ; sometimes I 
 have not had above four in during the year, and when they are in the female 
 ward they are by themselves, whereas they have some opportunity of talking 
 when they are a't Dorchester, and of being together more than they have at 
 Poole when they are only there singly. 
 
 4828. Chairman.'] When you take the prisoners from their separate cells, 
 supjiosing they are in sejiarate cells, to tlic treadwheel, do you take take them 
 all together, or do you take any precautions for preventing their loitering 
 about ? 
 
 In the summer time when they come off the wheel, they sit down on the 
 steps and pick oakum till the time they go on the wheel again, and when they 
 
 come off the wheel they pick oakum again. 
 
 4829. Are
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 437 
 
 4829. Are they locked in their cells at night ? Mr. G. Whitehall. 
 Yes, there is a door leading into a passage, and a large iron gate, which is ^jj^ ^^863. 
 
 locked, and the doors of their cells are locked and bolted also. 
 
 4830. Earl of Dudley.'] But they are together, are they not ? 
 
 No, they are separate ; each man is separate, unless there are more than the 
 ceils will contain. 
 
 4831. I understood you to state that it has happened that you have been 
 obliged to put them together ? 
 
 Twice ; there were two boys whom I was compelled to put to sleep together ; 
 they were two little boys, one 10 years old, and the other 12, and 1 let them sleep 
 together. 
 
 4832. Lord Wodehouse.'] Is there a railway between Poole and Dorchester? 
 Yes. 
 
 4833. Earl of Dudley.] What is the cost of the conveyance of a prisoner to 
 Dorchester ? 
 
 12*. for each prisoner. 
 
 4S34. The Committee understood you to state just now that the cost of con- 
 veying a prisoner from Poole to Dorchester is so great, that the conveyance 
 of two would amount to the keep of one man in Poole Gaol for a month ; what 
 did you include in that ? 
 
 Only the conveyance of the prisoner and his guard. 
 
 4835. Chairman.] Supposing that a prisoner refuses to work upon the tread- 
 wheel, what would you do ? 
 
 I should lock him up, and I should punish him with a day's bread and water; 
 if I found that that would not do, then I should call in the magistrates for them 
 to deal with him ; but I have generally found that answer. I have given a man 
 two or three days bread and water for refractory conduct. 
 
 4836. Earl of Romney.'\ In cases where that has not answered, what has been 
 done r 
 
 I have never had a case in which it has not answered ; I have generally found 
 the bread and water sufficient. 
 
 4837. Earl oi Dudley.] You find the stoppage of food to be a powerful argu- 
 ment ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4838. Do you feel altogether safe yourself, being alone, when you have three 
 or four men in gaol ? 
 
 I have never felt timid, because the police-station is about 100 yards from 
 me, and I have every opportunity of communicating with them. 
 
 4839. Chairman.] Have you an alarm-bell ? 
 Yes, there are two, one in each yard. 
 
 4840. Do you think that you would be safe yourself, and that you could 
 answer for the custody of the prisoners, if those alarm-bells were taken 
 away ? 
 
 I think so, because there is nothing by which they can escape. The wall is 
 between 18 and 20 feet high, and there is sharp glass all round the top, and 
 they have no bed-clothes that they can get at, or anything that they might 
 throw up to the wall. It could only be effected by a companion outside throw- 
 ing something over to them for the purpose. 
 
 4841. If that was done they might easily escape ? 
 
 I do not know that they could easily escape ; of course it might be possible. 
 
 4842. Did you not state that occasionally you were obliged to leave the 
 prison, and that you have locked the doors and left the prisoners in the yard. 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4843. Supposing that at that time any of their comrades outside threw a 
 rope over the wall, would they not easily get out ? 
 
 (37 15.) 3 I 3 Facing
 
 438 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mr. G. Whitehall. Facing the wall there are no less than seven or eight houses, which lead right 
 
 • down to the prison, so that they would be very bold to come there and throw 
 
 5111 May 1863. ^ rope over in the day-time. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 MR. JOSEPH CONSTANCE is called in, and Examined, as follows : 
 
 Mr, J. Constance. 4844. Chairman.'] YOU are the Governor of the New Radnor Gaol, are 
 
 you not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4845. That is a borough gaol ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4846. How long have you held the office of governor ? 
 Nine months. 
 
 4847. Had you had any experience of prisons previously to that ? 
 
 No ; all the prisoners that are committed for the borough are, by an 
 arrangement with the county, transferred to the county gaol at Presteign ; 
 they are not kept in the gaol at New Radnor. 
 
 4848. For how long are they confined in New Radnor Gaol r 
 
 Not at all ; they are transferred to Presteign as soon as they are committed, 
 and the borough pays the county for the support of them. 
 
 4849. Then, in fact, you have no establishment in the gaol? 
 
 No. 
 
 4850. Lord Steward.] What are your duties ? 
 
 I am serjeant-at-mace and serjeant of police as well ; it is merely to keep 
 the right in the borough that I am appointed at all. 
 
 4H51. Lord Wodeho7isc.] It is, in fact, a mere lock-up ? 
 
 Yes ; it is used as the county lock-up ; but they can keep prisoners there if 
 they think proper. 
 
 4852. Chairman.] Do you ever lock them up more than one night? 
 No. 
 
 48.53. How long is it since this arrangement has been in force ? 
 Two years. 
 
 4854. Lord fVodehouse.] The borough contracts with the county for the 
 maintenance of the prisoners ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4855. Has that arrangement been found quite satisfactory ? 
 Yes. 
 
 4856. Lord Steward.] Do you know whether the cost to the borough is 
 greater or smaller than it used to be when they kept the prisoners in their 
 own gaol ? 
 
 Smaller, I believe. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee bo adjourned to Thui'sday next. 
 
 One o'clock.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 439 
 
 BieJovis, T Mali 1863. 
 
 LORDS PRESENT 
 
 Lord Stewakd. 
 Earl of CaknaeVon. 
 Earl of RoMNET. 
 Earl Cathcart. 
 Earl of DuciE. 
 
 Earl of Dudley. 
 
 Lord WODEHOUSE. 
 
 Lord Wensleydale. 
 Lord Lyveden. 
 
 THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair. 
 
 Evidence on 
 
 Prison Discipline. 
 
 THOMAS HARPUR COLVILL, Esq., is called iff, and examined as follows : T. H. Cohill, E,q. 
 
 4857. Chairman.'] YOU are the Governor of Coldbath Fields' Prison, are tayi 3. 
 you not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4858. How long is it since you have held that appointment? 
 About eight years and a half. 
 
 4859. Did you hold any appointment of the same sort previously to your 
 present office ? 
 
 I was an officer in the army previously. 
 
 4860. What is the average number of prisoners in Coldbath Fields ? 
 The daily average last year was 1,594. 
 
 486 1 . How many cells have you which are certified ? 
 None. 
 
 468'.!. Have you any cells for separate confinement? 
 
 We have cells used as sleeping-rooms ; the prisoners are shut up in those 
 cells at six in the evening, and remain there till half -past six the next 
 morning. 
 
 4863. Are those cells lighted ? 
 
 Not at night ; they have merely the daylight. 
 
 4864. What is the size of those cells ? 
 
 They are of different sizes ; none of them are fit to be certified. 
 
 4865. By how much do they fall short of the regulation standard ? 
 
 Some of them are about seven feet six inches by five, and about nine feet 
 high. They contain from 337 to 503 cubic feet. 
 
 4866. What is the system of ventilation in them ? 
 
 An open window, and generally an air hole in the wall. 
 
 4867. Is there no flue ? 
 
 There is no flue in most of them. 
 
 4868. Is the window capable of being shut at the discretion of the prisoner ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4869. In the morning those cells must be very close, I presume ? 
 
 That of course would depend upon whether the prisoner opened the window 
 
 at night or not ; but I think if a good sized cell is merely used as a sleeping 
 
 (37. 16.) 3 I 4 cell.
 
 440 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 T. H. Colvill, Esq. cell, with the ventilation under the door, it does not become very close ; there 
 
 are some flues, but they are not of much effect. The prisoners will generally 
 
 7 th May 186 3. j^ warm weather open the window, and there will be some little current of 
 air even when it is closed. There are also air holes communicating with the 
 passages. , 
 
 4870. Are there water-closets within those cells? 
 
 No ; each prisoner is provided with a cell utensil for the night. 
 
 4871 . How many of those cells are there r 
 
 The present number is 959 ; but we are constantly building and making 
 new cells. 
 
 4872. When you make a new cell, do you have them of the same size as the 
 prescribed standard ? 
 
 No, we add as we can add. The prison was originally built for about 300 
 prisoners, and it has lately held as many as 1,750, and it is only by continually 
 adding a piece here and a piece there, and building a room, and adding a 
 dormitory, and so on, that that number has been accommodated. 
 
 4873. Therefore, you add rather with the view of separating the prisoners at 
 night than with a view to establishing the separate system as a whole ? 
 
 Yes, we have not attempted to establish the separate system as a whole ; but 
 at present new cells are building with a view to the separate system ; two new 
 wings, with about 320 ceUs, are now in progress. 
 
 4874. Are they of the same size as those in Pentonville ? 
 
 No, a smaller size, much smaller than those in Pentonville ,• but they are of 
 the size that the inspector and the Home Office have approved for separate 
 confinement, being well ventilated and lighted, and provided with all the 
 necessary conveniences. They are 1 1 feet by 6^ feet, and 8J feet high. 
 
 4875. "What do you reckon the cost of construction per cell of that size ? 
 The total expense voted was 30,000 /. for 326 cells ; that includes the exca- 
 vation and other particulars. 
 
 4876. There must consequently be some 700 or 800 prisoners who sleep in 
 dormitories' 
 
 Yes, the number which the prison is capable of containing in separate sleeping 
 cells is 959. The number of prisoners which the prison is capable of contain- 
 ing, where more than one prisoner sleeps in one cell, is 558. A greater number 
 still is accommodated by laying them down on the floor in spare rooms. 
 
 4877. In the dormitories proper, how are the prisoners accommodated ? 
 In hammocks, about 100 in a room, each man having a hammock. 
 
 4878. What is the interval from hammock to hammock ? 
 They almost toucli ; the beds touch, you may say. 
 
 4879. Arc the men classified in any way in those dormitories? 
 
 There are certain classes of prisoners that we prefer to put in the dormitories, 
 and others that we prefer to keep in cells. For instance, men sentenced to 
 penal servitude, and who might be more likely to attempt to escape or mutiny 
 at night, are always put in separate cells, and prisoners who are subject to 
 fits, and who might require attention in the night, are always put in the dormi- 
 tories ; we have certain rules of that kind. 
 
 4880. Do you separate them according to the classification of misdemeanants, 
 vagrants and felons '! 
 
 Yes, !is far as possible. 
 
 4881 . Would you ever place untried prisoners in the dormitories ? 
 We have no untried prisoners ; they are all convicted prisoners. 
 
 4882. Do you separate the more juvenile off"enders from the older ones? 
 Yes, the juveniles are completely separate ; they all sleep in cells, unless they 
 
 are subject to fits. 
 
 4883. Is there any night light in the room? 
 
 Yes, and we lock two sub-warders up in the large dormitories all night. 
 
 4884- Is
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 441 
 
 4S84. Is there any sleeping apai'tment in which there is not a warder? T. H. Cokill, Es/i, 
 
 No, excepting tlie separate cells, where we have only one prisoner ; we always ~ „ 
 
 have an officer in the dormitories, or where two or more prisoners are together. ^ 
 
 4885. Do you believe that that close approximation of hammock to hammock, 
 is a satisfactory arrangement ? 
 
 It is a very unsatisfactory arrangement, I think. 
 
 48S6. Have you had evidence of that since you have been Governor of the 
 gaol ? 
 
 Yes, continually. 
 
 4887. In what shape has that come before you ? 
 
 In the general management of the prison ; in fact, from the nature of the 
 case, it stands to reason that it must be unsatisfactory. 
 
 4888. Have prisoners ever complained to you about it ? 
 
 I can hardly say that they have complained to me about it ; but they have 
 frequently asked to be removed fiom a dormitory to a separate cell ; they 
 often make requests of that kind ; some again make a request to be removed 
 from a separate cell, and to be put in a dormitory. 
 
 4889. Do you not believe that the probability is that comunication of a very 
 unsatisfactory nature may pass between tlie prisoners ? 
 
 There must be some communication, but it is wonderfully little, owing to their 
 being so well watched by the officers, who are constantly with them ; but of 
 course there is some communication 
 
 4890. Is the rule of silence enforced r 
 Yes, day and night. 
 
 4891. Is it strictly observed ? 
 Yes ; generally. 
 
 4892. Have you ever had reason to suppose that robberies or misdemeanors 
 of any sort have been concocted while in prison from this system of associa- 
 tion? 
 
 No, I have not known any such case. 
 
 4893. Would you be surprised to hear that it was so ? 
 
 It is possible that such a thing might be done ; but I think that their com- 
 munications do not generally, in such cases, exceed " How long have you got," 
 " When are you going- out,"' and trifling cojumunications of that kind, which 
 are not of any great consequence. 
 
 4804. In the other rooms where the prisoners sleep, what are the arrange- 
 ments there ? 
 
 In some of the rooms they merely lie on the floor on mattresses ; the whole 
 of the floor is coaled over in one room with mattresses, on which the prisoners 
 lie as close as they can be packed, about 140 in one room lying on the floor, 
 and they have been so now for a considerable time. 
 
 4895. Is not that a very bad arrangement ? 
 It is a very bad arrangement indeed. 
 
 4896. Lord Stacn-d.] Tliat will cease to be the case, will it not, when the 
 new cells are made ? 
 
 Yes, in a great measure. Of course, the governor is obliged to take all 
 prisoners who are sent to him, and if there is no proper place to put them, he 
 can only do the best he can. 
 
 4897. Earl Cat/icart.] Are there any gangways left between the beds when 
 they are littered on the floor ? 
 
 Yes, there is some little passage kept, so as to allow men to get to the closet 
 and pass in and out. 
 
 48^8. Do you put prisoners in association who are in prison for most 
 degrading animal crimes ? 
 
 We do not make much difference. We treat them all pretty much upon 
 one system. If any special instance came under my notice, I might consider 
 that a reason for putting a man in a separate cell ratlaer than in a dormitory. 
 
 (37. iG.) 3 K 4899- Is
 
 442 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 T. H. ColvtU, Esq. 4899. Is not that close watching of two warders in a room very expensive ? 
 7th May 1863. ^* ^^ ^^^y expensive. At present there are 15 officers in dormitories whose 
 wages amount to 858 I. per annum at the lowest rate. 
 
 4900. Chairman.] Do you believe that it is completely effectual ? 
 It cannot be completely effectual. 
 
 4901. How many prisoners do those two warders superintend ? 
 Generally about 100. 
 
 4902. What is the length of the room ? 
 Eighty-three feet by 25, and 14 feet high. 
 
 4903. I presume tht^ warders themselves are asleep a part of the time ? 
 
 No, if they are seen asleep they are heavily fined. The sub-warders are 
 watched by other officers, and an officer who is seen to shut his eyes for a 
 moment would be fined. 
 
 4904. How do you institute a watch over those warders ? 
 
 A superior officer goes round the prison, and looks into the rooms, to see 
 whether they are doing their duty. 
 
 4905. Would it not be difficult to detect it if a warder was asleep ? 
 No, there is no difficulty in it. 
 
 4906. Would not the opening of the door, or the approach of a light wake 
 him ? 
 
 The officer does not open the door, but he looks through a spy-hole. 
 
 4907. Lord Steivard.] Do you not use tell-tales ? 
 
 We have no means of watching the officer who goes round the prison at 
 night, but when the officer has no one to overlook him, we use a tell-tale 
 clock, which lie has to mark every half hour during the night. 
 
 4908. Ckahmati.] How frequently do the superior officers make their rounds 
 to ascertain that the warders are not asleep r 
 
 They are going about all night. 
 
 4909. Do they look in as often as three times during the night ? 
 Yes, they look into every sleeping-room at least once eveiy hour. 
 
 4910. What check have you upon the superior officers doing their duty ? 
 Mo very great check, except that from a prisoner, or from the other officers, 
 
 I might hear of gross neglect which the superior officer ought to have seen 
 if he had been attending to his duty ; and 1 go round myselC at night occa- 
 sionally. 
 
 491 1. How many i^uperior officers of this class have you in the prison ? 
 
 In each building there is one superior warder, or night-watcliman, up all 
 night, whose duty it is to keep constantly patrolling about the prison, watching 
 the several officers, to report on any matter, and to call for assistance if anything 
 should happen to be wrong. This officer is one of the ordinary warders ; they 
 take this duty in turn ; we have two classes, warders and sub -warders ; the 
 sub-warders only do the duty in the rooms, and the warders take the outside 
 duty of superintending them. 
 
 4912. What is the pay of those warders? 
 
 The warders have |)ay at various rates ; the highest class have 38*. a week, 
 after 1 5 years' service, and the lowest 22 s. 
 
 4913. Do you require the warders who are employed in patrolling at night, 
 to perlorm any duty during the day ? 
 
 No. 
 
 4914. Do you change them for this servicer 
 
 Yes ; the warder who goes about the building takes the duty for four weeks, 
 and then he comes in to do day-duty in the ordinary way, and they take it in 
 turn ; the sub-warders in the rooms change every week ; they are one week on 
 night-duty, and then they come in to do day-duty. 
 
 49 1 5. Earl Cafhcart.'] Did you ever know a warder to be bribed, either by 
 a prisoner, or by the friends of a prisoner 1 
 
 Yes, there have been such cases. 
 
 4916. Have
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 443 
 
 4916. Have there been many such cases ? ^- ^- ^"' ^*?- 
 I cannot say many; it is very difficult to detect it. ^^■^ -^^^ jg^^ 
 
 4917. Do you believe that the system prevails at all r 
 
 It does to some extent. 
 
 4918. \jovALyveden.'] You do not, in Coldbath Fields, make any effort to 
 prevent the recognition of prisoners by each other r 
 
 No, none. 
 
 4q 1 9. You make no attempt at it by masks, or any other device, to prevent 
 recognition ? 
 
 No : it would be almost impossible to carry that out. 
 
 4920. Have you not sufficient means at your disposal in the establishment, 
 or do you think it generally unadvisable r 
 
 I think, as a general rule, it is found almost impracticable to carry it out in 
 any prison. 
 
 4921. Have you any experience of other prisons besides Coldbath Fields ? 
 Merely what I have heard and read. 
 
 4922. Have you come to the conviction that it is impossible to prevent the 
 prisoners recognizing each other when they leave the prison? 
 
 Almost impossible. 
 
 4923. Chairman.'] Have you had many cases of typhus or low fever in your 
 prison ? 
 
 We had upwards of 30 cases of typhus or low fever from November 1861 to 
 September 1862. 
 
 4924. Did the medical officers attribute that to the system of association ? 
 No, 1 think not. The cases occurred chiefly among prisoners who had been 
 
 recently admitted. 
 
 4925. Would there not be a risk that if typhus or low fever took hold of a 
 prisoner it would speedily be communicated from one prisoner to another ? 
 
 It would aj)pear to be probable, but we have not had any instances of the 
 kind, we have been generally free from it. The prison has been remarkably 
 healthy considering its A'ery crowded state. The number of deaths last year 
 was only 13, with a daily average of 1,594. 
 
 4926. Is the prison well drained? 
 1 think it is. 
 
 4927. Earl of Z)w?e.] I suppose nobody defends the system that is now in 
 operation at Coldbath Fields r 
 
 Not altogether. 
 
 4928. Are you yourself satisfied with the state of things there? 
 No, I am not satisfied. 
 
 4929. But are there such improvements in operation as will make it satisfac- 
 tory eventually ? 
 
 No, I do not think the prison could be made wholly satisfactory without being 
 entirely rebuilt. 
 
 4930. Earl Caf/icai t.] Will you point out a few of the evils of association 
 which you have observed of the most glaring kind? 
 
 There must be more or less communication in a crowded prison of that kind, 
 where the prisoners are constantly together, and much lying when they are 
 accused of talking ; but I think some association better than entire separation 
 in many cases. 
 
 4931. Does anything take place like assaults, or one prisoner bullying 
 another prisoner, or cutting down hammocks at night, or anything ot that 
 kind ? 
 
 No, nothing of that kind. The order and discipline that is maintained is 
 wonderful. 
 
 4932. But the diseiphne is maintained at great expense, is it not ? 
 
 The great exi)(nse is the system of dormitories, and the necessity of having 
 
 officers watching the prisoner to carry out the silent system ; if every prisoner 
 
 (^7.16.) 3k2 had
 
 444 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 f. H. Colxill, Esq. had a sleeping cell, which would be to carry out the real system of the prison, 
 then that expense would be very much saved. 
 
 -til May 1S63. 
 
 4933. Cftainiinn.] What scale of diet do you adopt and approve of? 
 I have one of my dietary tables with me. 
 
 4934. Is that framed upon the Government scale r 
 No, it is not. 
 
 4935. jLurd Steward.] Is it higher or lower than the Government scale ? 
 
 It differs from the Ciovernment scale ; we give [jrisoiiers sentenced to terms 
 exceeding two months, six ounces of cooked meat four days in the week, 
 whereas the Government tables only give four ounces ; I consider the six 
 ounces too much, and the magistrates are now considering the subject of reduc- 
 ing that allowance. 
 
 4936. Chiirnnan.'] As I understand, you are two ounces ahead of thi^ Govern- 
 ment ? 
 
 Yes, in the matter of meat. Then the Government tables give a pound of 
 potatoes every day, whereas we give considerably less ; we give two pounds a 
 week, whereas the Government would give seven pounds of potatoes. We give 
 24 ounces of meat per week, whereas the Government give only IG ounces, and 
 our prisoners get each a pint and a half of soup on the three other days when 
 they do not get meat. 
 
 4937. Will you hand in the scale of diet? 
 Yes (^delivering in the saiiu:). 
 
 4938. Has any revision of this table taken place lately : 
 Yes ; it is now under the consideration of the court. 
 
 4939. Lord Steward.] Is the whole scale under consideration ? 
 Yes, the whole scale. 
 
 4040. Earl Calhcart.] Was it in consequence of the outbreak of typhus fever 
 that the diet was increased r 
 
 \o ; there was no increase 'made on that account ; there was a change made. 
 
 4941. That probably would be in consequence of the fever which broke out 
 just before, was that so ? 
 
 No; there was a rule made some years ago to give no prisoner the first class 
 diet till he had been two months in the prison, and afterwards they returned 
 to the ori-inal rule, that all prisoners sentenced to more than two months im- 
 prisonment should have the first-class diet from the day of their admission. 
 But the old system was resumed in August 18GI, and the first case of typhus 
 was in November 18GI. 
 
 4942. Earl of Dudley.] Why was it changed back again ? 
 '1 he sugeon and others thought that it was a bad system. 
 
 4943. Was it absolutely found to be a bad system ? 
 It was not proved so to my satisfaction. 
 
 4944. Would it be advisable to put all prisoners upon the lowest diet first, 
 and increase it by degrees ? 
 
 Our surgeon and the Inspector of Prisons, were of opinion that if the 
 prisoners did not get good diet from their first achnision, they would break 
 down after some time, and that there would be more expense and more diffi- 
 culty in the end in bringing them up to health again with increased diet, than 
 if they had had full diet from the first. 
 
 494,-,. Earl Calhcart.] Did I rightly understand you to state that it was in 
 conse(|uen(!e of the outbreak of typhus fever tliat the diet was increased ? 
 No, I do not tliiiik so. 
 
 4946. Chairman.] Is there any suggestion that you would wish to make to 
 the Committee ? 
 
 One remark that I would like to make is, that I think one of the great 
 evils is the uncertainty of sentences ; great evil is produced by a prisoner 
 bein"- allowed to plead guilty, and being treated as a summary conviction 
 
 bv
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 445 
 
 by the magistrates instead of being sent to trial, whereby old offenders T. H. Cohill, Esq. 
 constantly come into ])rison for very shorty sentences, who, if they had been -th Ma~i86i 
 committed for trial, \Yould have got very long ones. ' _^ 
 
 4947. Earl of Dudley.'] Is that from the fact of their non-recognition ? 
 
 Yes ; it appears to me very desirable that a prisoner charged with any 
 serious offence should be sent to prison, in order tliat, as far as possible, he 
 may be recognised before he is sentenced. 
 
 4948. Chairman.'] Have you ever made any use of photography ? 
 
 No. our numbers are too great ; tlie number admitted last year was upwards 
 of 9,000. 
 
 4()49. Would not it be possible to photograph those individuals who come in 
 under suspi(;ious circumstances ? 
 It might be used in selected cases. 
 
 4()50. Do not you think that that would be a great advantage ? 
 That would depend very much vipon how it was used. 
 
 4951. Would you see any objection to affixing a mark (such as is done in 
 the Army) upon a prisoner after a second or third conviction for felony .- 
 1 think it would be highly desirable. 
 
 4052. Do you consider that it would be anything which would seriously 
 impair the prisoner's chance of obtaining honest employment afterwards, 
 supposing he was prepared to turn over a new leaf r 
 
 No ; not if it is put in a place where it need not be discovered unless looked 
 for. 
 
 4953 Lord Li/vedeti.] You would recommend that an offender should be 
 sent to the prison to be recognised before sentence is passed ? 
 
 When a prisoner is charged with a serious offence, the magistrate should 
 remand him to the House of Detention, or give directions for his being taken 
 to the prison, and there being seen by the prison officers before he is again 
 brought up for sentence. 
 
 4054. That would be confined, of course, to London prisons ; it would not 
 go beyond tliat .' 
 
 Yes ; I could give the Committee some instances which would bear out my 
 remarks. One prisoner, A. B., who had been five times before in Coldbath 
 Fields, was committed on a summarv conviction for stealing 18 lbs. of cheese ; 
 he pleaderl guilty, and was sentenced to six weeks. That was the sixth time 
 that he had been convicted. On the same day, C. D. was tried at the Sessions 
 for stealing 3 5. and a handkerchief ; that was his fifth conviction, and he 
 was sentenced to 10 years' penal servitude. E. F., who had been six times 
 before in prison, was convicted for stealing a bridle, and sentenced to six months, 
 after having pleaded gviilt}\ 
 
 4955. In the majority of cases, are not the previous sentences of prisoners 
 imknown to the magistrates ? 
 
 I suppose so. 
 
 4956. What would have been the sentence had the previous convictions 
 been known ? 
 
 ^lost hkely they would iiave been committed for trial, and sentenced to 
 penal servitude. 
 
 4q.'')7- Earl of Dud/ei/.'] Do not you think that a mark affixed to a prisoner 
 would do away with the dissatisfaction which arises from the fact that the officers 
 are not always willing to come forward to speak to their knowledge of a prisoner 
 from the insufficient remuneration which is allowed ? 
 
 I think that it would be most useful. I think also that some check should be 
 placed upon the change of names ; an old prisoner, upon a new conviction, 
 always changes his name, and so makes it more difficult to trace his history. 
 
 4958. Would not that also be done away with by the prisoner having a mark 
 affixed to him ? 
 
 You could hardly sentence a man merely because he had a mark, to any 
 
 eat extent. 
 
 (37. 10-) 3 K 3 49'59 Earl
 
 446 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 T. H. ColviU, Esq. 4959- Earl of Honmei/.'] Have you many cases of insubordination in prison ? 
 
 Wonderfully few, considerina; the crowded state of the prison. 
 
 7th May 1863. ' '^ '■ 
 
 ^qbo. What are the offences generally for which prison punishments are 
 
 flicted ? 
 
 Neglect of work and talking ; for assaults upon officers, prisoners are gene- 
 rally flogged with the cat-o'nine-tails. 
 
 4961. What is the most eBVctive punishment? 
 I think flogging is the most effective. 
 
 4962. Earl of Dudley.'] You would be very unwilling, would you not, to give 
 up the power of flogging ? 
 
 Yes ; I think it would be almost impossible to maintain discipline, in such a 
 large prison as mine, without it. 
 
 49*13. Chairman.'\ Is there any other suggestion which you would wish to 
 make to the Committee ? 
 
 I may mention that there is one prisoner in our prison who has been 7^ 
 times in prison, and another man who is supposed to have been 120 times in 
 prison. In the case of the man who has been in "JG times, his last sentence 
 but one was three days. 
 
 4964. What was it in the case of the man who had been 120 times in 
 prison i 
 
 He has not been in very lately, but it is generally for drunken assaults 
 that he has committed Those cases of repeated conviction are either for 
 begging or drunkenness. 
 
 4965. Earl of Dudley.'] What is the Committee to infer from that? W^ould 
 you reconnnend cumulative punishment "- 
 
 I think there ought to be some notice taken of such repeated convictions ; short 
 sentences are neither deterrent nor reformatory in such cases. 
 
 4966. Earl of Romixy.l For begging, there is cumulative punishment, is 
 there not ? 
 
 Yes ; beggars may be committed as incorrigible rogues and vagabonds. 
 
 4967. Earl Cofl/cart.] Is not the real want to be able to trace the criminal 
 history of the prisoner r 
 
 "i'es, I think that is very much wanted ; and there should be more care and 
 pains taken to trace their history. 
 
 4968. Can you suggest any particular system, by which a communication 
 might be established between different prisons with regard to the character of 
 the prisoners ? 
 
 One plan would be to ajjpoint proper persons to do that ; at present it is no 
 person's particular duty, and in a large prison like mine we are all too busy to 
 do it ; there ought to be officers for that special purpose. 
 
 4969. Would vou have some central office in London, to circulate the different 
 communications amongst the different prisons ? 
 
 Y'es, I think so. I certainly think that prisons are made too comfortable, 
 and I srronglv recommend that they should be made less so. 
 
 4970. Dord Steward.'] Do you see any objection, in cases of short sentences, 
 to make the ))risoners sleep u])on guard beds? 
 
 No ; I think it would he well to do so, or on the floor. 
 
 4971. Cliairvian.'\ Have you had experience of any prisons besides Cold- 
 bath Fidds ? 
 
 No actual experience. 
 
 4072. Have vou, from your official position in Coldbath Fields, become 
 acquainted with the details of other prisons ? 
 
 I hear of other prisons, and T visit other prisons occasionally; but I can 
 onlv s])eak distinellv as to my owi> prison. I would mention that the bedding 
 which is allowed in Coldbath Fields at this moment (the "th May), consists of a 
 mattrass, a ))air of thick sheets, thi'ee blankets, and a rug ; and some have a 
 hammock and a mattrass also. The prisoners are locked up at night at six 
 
 o'clock ;
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 447 
 
 o'clock ; and if they please they can sleep, in this very warm bed, until half-past T. II. Colvill, Esq. 
 six the next morning. ^^^ I^, 863. 
 
 4973. Do you consider that in all respects that is injurious ? • — 
 
 I consider that it is highly injurious in every way. 
 
 4974. Earl of Dudley.^^ I presume, by that answer, that you have not gas in 
 your prison ? 
 
 No ; the cells are not lighted with gas. 
 
 4975. After dark you have no power of employing the prisoners ? 
 
 No ; they are locked up, principally in order to let the officers get away who 
 have had 12 hours' duty, which I think is quite enough. 
 
 4976. Chairman.'] Are there any other comforts which you consider und(ie 
 in the case of the prisoners in Coldbath Fields ? 
 
 I reported to the magistrates some time ago, that I thought the diet was 
 exce^sive for the majority of the prisoners ; but it acts very differently ; one 
 man gains and another man loses upon the same diet ; it depends upon what 
 he has been acustomedto, and the nature of the man. And in the same way in 
 regard to the labour : we have the treadwheel in Coldbath Fields ; and one 
 man can work on it witliout any very great labour, while another man suffers 
 greatly. 
 
 4977. Lord Steward.'] Do you approve of the treadwheel as a means of 
 punishment ? 
 
 I think the more pi'ofitable the labour for the prisoner is the better ; and I 
 do not think that you deter any man much from going to prison by such 
 punishments ; he does not consider v^hat will be the labour in the prison when 
 he commits a crime. 
 
 4978. What do you consider to be the effect of unproductive labour on a 
 prisoner. 
 
 I think it has a bad effect upon his mind. Our treadwheel is not exactly 
 unproductive ; we grind corn for ourselves, and make our bread also, and 
 supply three other prisons. 
 
 4979. Earl of Diidley.] You do not call any other labour than the treadwheel 
 labour, do you ? 
 
 That is the only very hard labour that we have ; but various trades are con- 
 sidered hard labour. 
 
 4980. Is it your opinion that the treadwheel had better be kept for a certain 
 class of cases than be done away with entirely ; would you retain the tread- 
 wheel ? 
 
 Thei'e is great ditficulty in finding sufficient labour in a large prison like 
 mine. There are many prisoners who know no trade, and have no power of 
 doing any useful labour ; and the treadwheel employs them, probably, as well as 
 any way that could be devised. 
 
 4981. With regard to short sentences, in fact, it is useless trying to teach 
 them a trade, and the treadwheel is the oidy thing that you can have 
 recourse to ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4 9!- 2. Lord Steuard.] You have suggested that the prisoners might sleep 
 12^ hours if they thought fit; is it not in your power to prevent them from 
 uusllnging their hammocks until eight or nine o'clock ? 
 
 The bedding might be kept away to a certain hour, but that would require 
 to keep the officers employed to a later hour. 
 
 498.3. Earl of Dudlej/.] Are there not a certain number of officers who re-idc 
 upon the premises ? 
 Only three. 
 
 4984. Earl Cathcart.] Have you any women in your prison ? 
 No, we have no women. 
 
 498,5. Lord Steurird.^ Would it not be very inconvenient, if there was any- 
 thing like the breaking out of disorderly conduct in the prison at night, to 
 have onlv three officers resident in the prison ? 
 
 (3;. 10.) 3 K 4 We
 
 448 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 T. H. Colvill, Eiq, We have always a certain number in the prison. Ten officers sleep in 
 
 the rooms, besides those in the dormitories and on watch. There would be at 
 
 7th May 1863. least 30 in the prison. 
 
 49^^6. Earl Cathcart.'] In the associated wards, I presume that decency can- 
 not be regarded at all at nifiht ? 
 
 I see no indecency. There is a retiring place for the prisoners in the 
 corner of the room, with a screen. Perhaps the Committee would allow me 
 to call their attention to a calculation which I made some time ago respect- 
 ing the diet of Coldbath Fields Prison, comparing; it with tliat of two of the 
 neighbouring workhouses. The value of the diet gi\ en to the first class in 
 Coldbath Fields is 2*. \\d. a week, and in the Clerkenwell Workhouse the diet 
 of the paupers costs 2s. 8j d., and in the Holborn Workhouse 2 *. 7h d., showing 
 that the prisoner is better off than the pauper in a workhouse. 
 
 4987. Earl of Romneij^ Do you think there is anything in the circumstance 
 of his being in a prison that makes it necessary to feed him better ? 
 
 I think there may be ; but I think there are a great number who would 
 ])refer going to a prison to going to the workhouse. They think that they have 
 more comforts in the prison. 
 
 4988. Do you think that you can carry out the criminal law in punishing 
 offenders in such a way as to make it more deterrent to the prisoner than it 
 is now ? 
 
 It is very difficult to do so ; but I think that if there were less diet, less 
 warmth, less bedding, and things of that kind, the comforts might be reduced 
 a great deal. 
 
 4989. If shorter and sharper punishments were given, such as whipping for 
 instance, do you think that they would have a good effect ? 
 
 I do not think it would make any great difference in the way of deterring 
 criminals ; I think they take their chance of consequences, and that it is not 
 generally anything that occurs in the piison that leads them to commit or abstain 
 from crime. 
 
 4990. Lord Steivard.] Are you of opinion that no system can be made 
 deterrent ? 
 
 You might make it more deterrent. I have no doubt the separate system is 
 much more deterrent than the associated system. 
 
 4991. Earl of Dudley.] If a man is determJned to commit a crime, he does 
 not take into account what the punishment will be '? 
 
 No ; he risks that. 
 
 4992. If a notion gets abroad that a gaol is upon the separate system, is 
 there not less inclination on the part of offenders to be committed to it ? 
 
 In some deeree that is the case. 
 
 49<).5. Do not you think that the criminal population of London discuss all 
 the prisons, and know perfectly well what the treatment will be if they are 
 committed to them ? 
 
 Yts; and no doubt they prefer one more than another. 
 
 4994. Earl of Romnty.'] If the discipline is not deterrent, do you imagine 
 that you can make it reformatory r 
 
 You can take some steps towards those results ; you can make it more 
 deterrent, and you can make it more reformatory ; l)ut I do not think you can 
 adopt any system whic^h can make the majoritv of rogues honest men. I think 
 that the general feeling of a man when he gets into prison for the first time is, 
 that a prison is a much b(;tter place than he expected. 
 
 499,> Earl ol Dudley.'] You v.ould endeavour to do away with that feeling, 
 would you not ? 
 
 Yes, as much as possible ; but we cannot do away with it altogether. 
 
 4991"). Earl Cat/icart.] When the prison officers are bribed, what is the usual 
 motive ? 
 
 Generally, it is to get tobacco carried in, and messages carried out. 
 
 4997. No
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 449 
 
 4997. Not with a view to escape r T. H. CdvUl, Esq. 
 No ; a man might bribe the warder to allow him to escape, but that is next ": — 
 
 to an impossibility; the officer cannot help him much. ' *'''■■ ^ ^' 
 
 4998. Lord Steward.'] You stated just now that the knowledge that the 
 labour was unproductive produced a feeling of irritation in the minds of the 
 prisoners ; do they necessarily know to what purpose their labour is applied ? 
 
 Yes ; I think they always know, and I think that a man will work much 
 harder and with more goodwill when he is doing something that is useful in 
 its results, than when he is doing something that is useless. 
 
 4999. You stated that your treadwheel is applied sometimes to grinding corn ; 
 if you had ground enough corn, woukl you cease to use the treadwheel ? 
 
 No ; sometimes we apply to it a fly-wheel, when we do not want it for corn. 
 
 5000. Do you find any difference in the conduct of the prisoners when such 
 is the case? 
 
 I think there is more satisfaction to them when they grind corn than they 
 feel when they grind the wind, as they call it. 
 
 5001. Earl of liomney.'] The object of putting them on the treadwheel is to 
 punish tliem, is it not ■ 
 
 Yes, and it has a deterrent effect, no doubt, to some extent. 
 
 5002. Earl of Dudley.] Would you be averse to a system by which a prisoner 
 was at first put to unproductive labour, and that the fii-st release from that 
 sliould be putting him to industi-ial occupation and to productive labour, a 
 graduated scale, in fact, in which the first state was distinctly and purely a 
 punishment, and the next an improvement in that respect, by the employm'ent 
 of productive labour? 
 
 I think it would be well to adopt such a plan. 
 
 5,003. So far as your own experience goes, do you believe that a man could 
 enter upon the worse diet of the shortest sentence, and so go on increasing 
 the diet up to the full time for which a prisoner is sentenced, which is gene- 
 rally 18 months. Do you think that the health of a strong man, when he 
 came in, could stand that ? 
 
 1 think that in many cases it could ; but it is very difficult to lay down a 
 sreneral rule about diet, because men are so diffei-ent. 
 
 5004. Is it not absolutely necessary to have a general rule, even if there are 
 many exceptions to it ? 
 
 Yes, there must be a general rule, but I should prefer that an excess of diet 
 should be given to those who require it, instead of having a high rate in 
 order that some men may not suffer. 
 
 5005. When a man is sentenced to hard labour, does he come in at once 
 and begin upon the hard labour diet ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 5006. As you have not sufficient hard labour for all in jour prison, you 
 necessarily have many who are enjoying the diet which is given upon the 
 assumption that hard labour is enforced ? 
 
 All prisoners sentenced to hard labour are put upon the treadwheel in their 
 turn, unless they are excused for some reason. 
 
 5007. That only applies to a certain number ? 
 
 To 320 daily out of 1,700. When it is in full operation, those who work the 
 treadwheel are on every other day. We have besides a great number at trades, 
 and cleaning the prison. 
 
 5008. Every day they are enjoying the full diet, which supposes them to be 
 at hard labour ? 
 
 Yes ; they pick oakum when not on the treadwheel. 
 
 5009. Would you call industrial labour hard labour ? 
 
 Yes, in some cases ; for instance, smiths, masons and others may work har.l, 
 and generally do so with us. 
 
 5010. Is there any other labour which may be called hard labour except the 
 treadwheel or the crank ? 
 
 We had shot-drill at one time, but it has been discontinued. 
 
 (37. iG.) 3 L 501 1. Earl
 
 450 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 T.H.C(d-iU,Esq. 5011. Earl oi Roniney.'] Do you consider that you wouid be justified in 
 " ~ ,,, putting a man at a lower scale of diet when he was not at work ? 
 ' ''^ I should prefer keeping him 011 a regular diet. 
 
 5012. Do you think that you have any power to reduce the diei 01 a man 
 on a day when he is not on the wheel ? 
 
 Xo. 
 
 5013. Earl Cathcart.l A prisoner is entitled to have his diet weighed, is he 
 not ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 5014. Do they exercise that power r 
 
 Sometimes. I may observe also as to the effect of diet, that on a set of 
 weighings which we took lately, in regular course, of men who had been 6 months 
 in prison, 19 had gained in all 131 lbs., while 20 had lost in all 103 lbs., and 2 
 had not altered in weight, out of 4 1 prisoners. 
 
 5015. Earl of Rom?iei/.'\ Were those men all receiving the full diet : 
 Yes. 
 
 50 iC. Earl of Vudlii/.] You do not think it necessary that a prisoner should 
 be turned out of gaol of the same weight as he came in ? 
 
 No ; I think that the proper result would be, that he should lose some 
 amount of weight, not too much, of course. 
 
 .5017. Chairman.] Will you put in a table showing the results of the diet 
 with regard to weight ? 
 
 I will prepare such a table for the Committee. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 fl/r. rr. Griffiths. Mr. WILLIAM GRIFFITHS is called in ; and examined, as follows : 
 
 5018. Chairman.'] YOLI are Governor of Worcester City Gaol, are you 
 not ? 
 
 I am. 
 
 501 9. How long have you held that office ? 
 Since August. 1819. 
 
 .5020. Were you employed in any prison capacity previous to that time ? 
 I was with my father about three years. He was Governor of Worcester Gaol 
 prior to myself. 
 
 5021. What is the average number of prisoners who are in Worcester City 
 Gaol every day ? 
 
 I have taken the average of five years ; in 1858 the average was 24 males 
 :in(I 10 females; in 1859, 22 males and 9 females; in 1860, 24 males and 
 8 females: in 1861, 22 males and / females, and in iS62, 31 males and 
 7 females. 
 
 5022. So that speaking roughly and generally the avernge number of pri- 
 soners per day for the last five or si.K years has been about 34 r 
 
 Yes. 
 
 .5023. What is the charge per head ? 
 
 Tt sometimes amounts to 31 /. or 32 /. ; last year it was 2i) /• and some odd 
 shillings per annum. 
 
 .1024. Has it rver been higher than that? 
 
 It has been 36 /. one year. 
 
 502,-,. Are manv of (he cells in the gaol certified by the inspector? 
 
 None. 
 
 .5026. Have )ou any separate cells r 
 
 We have 36 separate cells for males. 
 
 5027. How 
 
 A
 
 7th May 1863. 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 45] 
 
 5027. How many women's cells ? ^^r If'- Griffiths. 
 We have nine women's cells ; but the women's cells are much larger than the 
 
 men's. 
 
 5028. What is the size of those cells ? 
 The men's sleeping cells are eight feet long, six feet three inches wide, and 
 
 nine feet high. 
 
 5029. flow are they ventilated ; is it by means of the window ? 
 Yes, there is a window, and in the side of the wall there is a grating through 
 
 which air comes from tlie top. 
 
 ,5030. Has a prisoner the jiower of opening and shutting the window ? 
 Yes, he has the power of doing so. 
 
 5031. Do you find that the cells in the morning are at all close or not? 
 Yes, they are so. 
 
 5032. During the day how are the prisoners kept employed? 
 
 The convicted prisoners are employed on the treadwheel or the crank, some- 
 times a man is employed in making and mending shoes if he is a shoemaker, or 
 if he is a tailor we employ him ro make and mend for the prisoners. 
 
 5033. .Are all the convicted prisoners employed in that way? 
 Principally upon the treadwheel and the crank. 
 
 .5034. How many hours a day does a convicted prisoner work? 
 
 In the suii;mer time he gets up at six, and goes to work at half-past six, and 
 works till nine ; there is one hour allowed for breakfast till ten o'clock, and 
 thtn they work from ten to one, and from two to six, except on Wednesdays 
 and Fridays, when the chaplain has service. 
 
 5035. In winter when are the prisoners locked up ? 
 Soon after four in winter. 
 
 503(1. At nine o'clock you say they have breakfast ? 
 Yes. 
 
 5037. When do they have their dinner : 
 From one to two o'clock 
 
 5(i3S. Is there any food allowed after dinner ? 
 
 Yes, the pi isoner has his gruel and eight ounces of bread. 
 
 5039. When does he hare that r 
 Soon after four in the dead of the winter. 
 
 5040. So that in fact he has tln-ee meals, at nine o'clock, one o'clock, and four 
 o'clock } 
 
 Yes ; at six o'clock in summer ; it depends upon the time of year. 
 
 504 1 . After four he is locked up r 
 Very soon after tour when it becomes dark. 
 
 5042. Are the cells lighted ? 
 Not one of them. 
 
 5043. So that he is left by himself in the dark from four o'clock till when r 
 From about four in the evening till seven in the morning. This I consider is 
 
 the penal part of our prison. 
 
 5044. Has he the power of going to bed if he likes ? 
 Yes, if he likes. 
 
 5045. That would give him about 15 hours' sleep ? 
 Yes. 
 
 .'5046. How many warders have you in the gaol ? 
 
 I have a chief warder, a second warder, and a third warder, and a man to 
 cook and do jobbing about the prison ; four in all. 
 
 5047. What is their pay ? 
 
 The chief warder gets a guinea a week, the second warder 1 /., third warder 
 18s., and the cook 15 s. 
 (37. 16.) 3 L 2 5048. Lord
 
 7th May 1863. 
 
 452 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mr. W. Griffiths, 5048. Lord Stcivard.'] Have they finy rations oi- other allowance ? 
 The three warders have one suit of clothes each per annum. 
 
 5049. They have lodging in the prison, I presume ? 
 One or two of them sleep in the prison. 
 
 5050. Chairman.'] Do you give the prisoners any exercise in the ailing yard ? 
 Yes. 
 
 50.51. How many do you send out together at a time ? 
 
 We have but few ; there would be perhaps five or six in the yard exercising, 
 and a warder stands in front and sees them exercising. 
 
 5052. Do you place any warder in the airing yard to superintend them? 
 
 There is a warder there while they are exercising, but he is not there at all 
 times. 
 
 .50.53. Do you have a warder to superintend the men when they are on the 
 treadwheel ? 
 
 Yes, always. 
 
 ,5054. Do you do any industi-ial work in the prison ? 
 Not generally. 
 
 5055. Is there any other occupation excepting the treadwheel and the crank ? 
 
 Yes, there is shoemaking, tailoring, washing, cleansing the prison, making 
 and mending ; the women make everything that is wanted for the men in the 
 way of clothing. 
 
 50.56. Are the prisoners ever employed in any considerable number in one 
 room by themselves at any work ? 
 
 Certainly not ; never more than two at a time. 
 
 5057. Are those two under any superintendence? 
 Occasionally, not legularly. 
 
 50.58. I suppose there is something to prevent any communication passing 
 between prisoner and prisoner r 
 
 With regard to the two who would be working by themselves, of course there 
 could not be. 
 
 .5050. Earl of Dudley.'] In the yard they are together, are they not? 
 Yes, prisoners before trial, with occasional supervision ; convicted male pri- 
 soners, when exercising, are always under the supervision of a warder. 
 
 5060. Lord Steward.] When the prisoners are at exercise can they have any 
 conversation ? 
 
 A warder stands in front of them. 
 
 5061 . Is it forbidden ; are they forbidden to have conversation ? 
 They are not allowed it. 
 
 5062. Earl of Dttdlry.] If they have not an officer with them the chances are 
 that they can and do do it ? 
 
 Y'es, there is no doubt of that. 
 
 5063. Chairman.] Have you sufficient sleeping room to seuarate all the pri- 
 soners at night ? 
 
 For the men we have, but not for the women. 
 
 5064. Have you never been obliged to put more than one man into a cell ? 
 
 If the cells are all full, or sonietimcs if I have more than 3G men (and some- 
 times I have 40), I put three or four down in the hospital, which is very seldom 
 wanted for sickness. 
 
 5065. If there were a sick man in the hospital what would you do then ? 
 AVe should not put them with a sick man : I hardly know where we should 
 
 put them in such a case ; we have a room that we might use, but we never 
 have had occasion to do so. 
 
 5066. Have you any outside walls surrounding the prison? 
 There is a boundary wall all round. 
 
 5067. How high is that boundary wall? 
 1 should think it is 10 or 1 8 feet. 
 
 506S. Is
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 453 
 
 5068. Is the prison in good repair ? Mr. W. Griffiths. 
 
 Yes. 
 
 5069. Have you ever had any attempts made at escape ? 
 Yes, I have lost two or three prisoners since it has been built. 
 
 5070. What do you attribute those escapes to r 
 
 There were many things to account for then. The first that I lost was when 
 I had two half prisons. Our old prison was part of a monastery, and before the 
 other part was finished we were obliged to put some prisoners in, and one man 
 got the mortar out before it was thoroughly set, and got away. 
 
 5071. Do you ever have any debtors in the prison ? 
 Yes. 
 
 5072. Have you a separate ward for debtors ? 
 Yes. 
 
 5073. Earl of Dudley.'] Are they not mixed up with the criminals r 
 Not at all. 
 
 5074. Do you keep the untried prisoners apart from the convicted ones ? 
 
 1 keep the men always apart, but we cannot always keep the women apart 
 for want of room. We have only nine sleeping cells for them. The women's 
 sleeping colls are 11 feet long, 7 feet 6 inches wide, and 10 feet 2 inches high. 
 They are larger than the men's. 
 
 507.5. So that you are obliged sometimes to put an untried woman, who 
 is awaiting her trial in the gaol, together with a convicted woman ? 
 I am obliged to do that sometimes for want of room. 
 
 507G. Do they sleep in the same room together ? 
 Yes, in that case they do. 
 
 .5077. Do you separate the misdemeanants from the felons ? 
 Yes, we do. 
 
 5078. How many hours a day does the treadwheel work ? 
 
 At this time of year it works from half-past six till nine, from ten till one, 
 and from two till six. 
 
 5079. As a general rule, have you the treadwheel always in operation during 
 the day ? 
 
 Yes, as a general rule. 
 
 5080. Has it ever happened that from want of warders, or from any other 
 reason, the treadwheel has not been in operation ? 
 
 Never from want of warders. It has not been in operation sometimes for 
 want of prisoners. 
 
 50?^ I . Has it ever happened that there have been no prisoners in the gaol ? 
 Not in my day. 
 
 50S2. Earl of Dudley.'] What is the number now r 
 When I came away there were 36 in all. 
 
 .5083. How many men r 
 
 Twenty-six men, seven women, and three debtors. 
 
 5084. Lord Wodehouse.'] What is the smallest number with which you can 
 work the treadwheel ? 
 
 Four ; and if there are three good-sized men, three can do it. 
 
 .50S5. Earl of Dudley.] How many can you put on ? 
 
 If very closely packed, 18. There are three compartments, holding six 
 prisoners each, but that is close. 
 
 5080. The six can talk to each other, can they not r 
 
 Yes, but if they do so the officer reports them and they get punished. 
 
 .50S7. Lord Wodehouse.'] For how long at a time do they work upon the 
 treadwheel without stopping? 
 
 Ten minutes, and five minutes rest. 
 
 (37. 16.) 3 L 3 5088. How 
 
 7 th May 1863.
 
 454 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mr. W. Griffiths. 50S8. How maii}^ Steps do tliey make in the ten minutes ? 
 About 48 steps a minute. 
 
 7th May 1863. 
 
 5089. Earl of Diidley.'] Have you the power of regulating it r 
 
 Ko, we have not, but we have a fly-wheel which the balls regulate. 
 
 5090. Chairnian.'] Have you a chaplain r 
 Yes. 
 
 5091. ^\'hat is his salary ? 
 £. 75 a year. 
 
 5092. Have you a surgeon r 
 Yis. 
 
 ,5093. How often does the chaplain attend every week r 
 • Twice on Sundays, and a Wednesday and Friday service, and he goes round 
 
 to talk to the prisoners at other times, principally on Saturdays ; he comes there 
 on purpose on Saturdays. 
 
 5094. Have you anything like a service room or a school-room ? 
 Nothing of the sort. 
 
 .5095. Do }0u give the prisoners any instruction ? 
 
 No, we do not give them an}- instruction : the chaplain does sometimes. 
 
 5096. At what times does the chaplain give instruction r 
 
 Wednesdays and Fridays, after service, also on Saturdays he devotes two or 
 three hours each morning. 
 
 5097. Is the instruction given in the separate cells ? 
 i\o, in the chapel, or in the wards. 
 
 5098. Do you consider that the general system of the gaol is a satisfactory 
 one in its arrangements ? 
 
 I cannot say that it is. 
 
 5099. Do you know whether the matter has ever formed the subject of com- 
 plaint or representation in any of the inspector's reports ? 
 
 Yes, they have reported several times. 
 
 5 1 00. Earl of Dudley.'] Has anything been done in consequence ? 
 
 There has been some little alteration, but nothing except with respect to the 
 bottom cells in the wards ; they were at one time of stone, and rather damp, 
 and the inspectors recommended all the bottom cells to be boarded, which was 
 done. 
 
 .5101. Chairman.] Have the inspectors ever reported against the general 
 arrangements in the prison ? 
 J think they have. 
 
 5102. Has the matter ever formed the subject of consideration on the part of 
 the visiting justices ? 
 
 Yes ; but our city has been laying out 70,000 I. or 80,000 /. in water and 
 sewerage ; probably they are very careful about spending any money. 
 
 ,5)03. The municipal improvements appear to have rather interfered with the 
 arrangements of the prison ? 
 I think ver}' likely that is so. 
 
 5104. Lord Sten-ard.] Have you, yourself, ever made any suggestion for the 
 improvement of the gaol itself, or with regard to discipline ? 
 
 I have sometimes, but I am obliged to be very careful about the finance 
 department, or else 1 should get into trouble with the town council. 
 
 5105. Lord ffodehouse.] How often do the visiting magistrates visit the gaol r 
 Every fortnight. 
 
 x 5106. Earl of Ditdlcy.] How is your prison bounded; is there a wall all 
 
 round it ? 
 
 \ ' 5107. You
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX TRISOX DISCIPLINE- 455 
 
 5 1 07. You told US, (lid you not, that it is 18 feet high r Mr. W. Griffiths. 
 Yes, about that. — - 
 
 7th May 1863, 
 
 5108. Is there a road on each side, or on how many sides of the prison ? 
 
 No ; there is some building which comes right up to it ; there is no road round 
 
 the prison. 
 
 5109. Is it not bounded on two sides by a street? 
 Yes, on two sides. 
 
 5110 On the other side of the strieet are there houses ? 
 Yes. 
 
 5111. Do the top windows of the houses look over into the gaol ? 
 There are some which do. 
 
 5112. Can the prisoners see the people in the top rooms, and can the people • 
 in the top rooms see them I 
 
 Yes. 
 
 5113. Can they make signs to one another r 
 Yes, they have done so. 
 
 5114. And throw things over to one another? 
 Yes, many times that has happened. 
 
 5115. Do you find that there are constant attempts to communicate with the 
 people outside r 
 
 There are constant attempts when the}' have an opportunity of doing so. 
 
 5116. Do you consider that the supervision which you have in Worcester 
 gaol, is sufficient to enable you to carry on the discipline effectually r 
 
 Not strictly. 
 
 5117. How often does the Inspector come down? 
 Once a year. 
 
 5118. Lord Wodehousc.'] Has he ever calltd attention to the construction of 
 the gaol, and to the power which exists of people communicating from the out- 
 side with the prisoners ? 
 
 Ye.«, many times. 
 
 5119. And has no attention whatever been paid by the visiting n.agistrates 
 to the report of the Inspector ? 
 
 The visiting magistrates have no power to lay out money, they must go to the 
 Town Council for it. 
 
 5120. Have the visiting magistrates ever brought any of those complaints of 
 the Inspector before the Town Council, with a view to money being laid out? 
 
 I think not. 
 
 5 1 2 i . Lord St€lvard.^^ How many officers sleep on the premises ? 
 The cook, and one other officer. 
 
 5122. If there should be an outbreak in the night, what means would there 
 be of suppressing it ? 
 
 '1 here are two officers, myseif and the watchman, who goes round at night. 
 
 5 1 23. Then there would be four officers on the premises at night ? 
 \es. 
 
 .51 24. Earl of Dud/ejj.] What number are nctually resident in the prison 
 during the nis;ht ? 
 
 There are myself, one of the v^arders, the co,.k, and the watchman; the 
 latter goes round every quarter of an hour : there are the head warder, tlie 
 next warder, the third warder, and the cook ; that is. four officers by da}' ; at 
 nine o'clock at night two of them go away, and there are two left in "the pri^^n 
 besides myself, and the watchn an all night, so that there are four on the 
 premises. 
 
 51 ^5- Clidirmoii.] Is not the county gaol situated in the town of Worcester ? 
 Yes, it is. 
 
 (37.1c.) 3 L 4 jV2'}. Do
 
 X 
 
 456 MINUTES OF F.YIDEXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mr. W. Criffiths •■'•1 26. Do you know what is the average number of prisoners m that gaol ? 
 
 — — ■ I cannot speak accurately, but I think it is about 230 or 240. 
 
 7ili May 1863. . , ,_ t v 1 1 ^" 
 .ji -'7. Is it a large gaol .- 
 
 Yes. 
 
 51 cS. Are you aware that there is an iVct of Parliament which allows you to 
 contract for prisoners^ and to send them from the borough gaol to the county 
 
 gaol :- 
 
 Yes. 
 
 5129. Have you ever taken advantage of that Act ? 
 
 No. . 
 
 5 1 30. Do not you think that it might be adrantageous perhaps sometimes to 
 take advantage of it r 
 • In fact we are short "of money ; that is the real state of the case in our town ; 
 
 it is the finance question that keeps us quiet. 
 
 .5131. Loixl Steward] Do you know what is the comparative expense of 
 keeping prisonei's in the two gaols ? 
 
 There is very little difference in the two gaols as to the expense. 
 
 5132. Is the dietary the same in both r 
 Yes ; it is the Government dietary. 
 
 5133. Chairman.] Is the food cooked within your prison? 
 Yes. 
 
 .5134. Do you suppose that there would be any material gain effected, either 
 in economy or efficiency, by contracting with the county ? 
 
 That depends upon what the county would do, because if our prison were to 
 be done awa)- with entirely, we should be at the mercy of the county to charge 
 us what they liked for the rent of the cells. 
 
 5135. Earl of Ducie.] Do you know what the practice is in the City of 
 Gloucester ? 
 
 The Gloucester City prison is given up ; they all go to the county ; they 
 had only one ward in the City prison. 
 
 5136. Do you know what they pav for the prisoners in the County Gaol ? 
 
 No. 
 
 5137. Lord Wodthousc] How are the women employed in your gaol? 
 They are employed in making and mending, and washing. 
 
 5138. Have you a matron r 
 Yes. 
 
 5139. What do you pay her? 
 
 £. 30 a year ; that is the only female officer we have. 
 
 5140. Has she no help ? 
 
 My wife is the matron, and my servant assists my wife, for which she is paid 
 nothing. 
 
 5141. She has no female warder, has she ? 
 None at all. 
 
 5142. If she has the whole of the nine cells full, is she supposed to manage 
 the wiiole of those women ? 
 
 Yes, with her servant. 
 
 5143. If you choose you might do without a servant ; they have no right to 
 the services of that servant ': 
 
 Certainly not. 
 
 .5144- But the matron is allowed no woman help ? 
 
 No help at all ; some of the Tovvn Council consider the expense of the matron 
 to be too much. 
 
 .';i4.j. CIniirinan.] Are you aware whether any motion has ever been brought 
 before tlic Town Council for alterations to be made in the prison ? 
 No, I do not believe there ever has. 
 
 5146. Lord
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.. 457 
 
 .'',14^. Lord Steward.] What is your own salary ? , Mr. W. Griffiths. 
 
 £. 200 a year and a house, with washing, coals and light- Perhaps the Com- 
 
 mittee would allow me to say, that I am the only governor in England who was " ^ '^' 
 a governor in the time of George the Third. When I first re'taember the prison, 
 we had two or three large rooms, and we turned all the men into these rooms 
 without washing or anything in the world ; they were allowed 1 \ pounds of 
 bread per day and water, but there was not even a ])iece of soap allowed at 
 first. I remember the coiaaty gaol having only one officer besides the governor 
 in my day, and they had but two when they went to the new gaol, except the 
 watchman. , 
 
 5147. Earl of i5?«//t7y.] You say that all the men were together; were the 
 women mi.\ed u|j with them ? 
 
 They were quite separate, but there was oidy one sitting-room and one sleep- 
 ing-room for the women ; and if a woman was confined she was confined in the 
 midst of all the rest, in a great lumbering room. But the women were parted 
 from the men more tlian they are now ; it was impossible for them to get near 
 to the men ; they had no communication with them in any way. 
 
 .5 148. Then it would appear that the system has fallen off a little, so far as the 
 women are concerned, since the timu of George the 1 bird ? 
 
 I do not know about that ; I am speaking of the prison arrangements. 
 
 51 49. Lord JVodehouse.'] Can the women communicate with the men now ? 
 Sometimes they will. 
 
 51,50. Earl oi Dudley.] Their wards are quite close together, are they? 
 Yes ; I find sometimes a little scrap torn out of the Prayer Book, which is written 
 upon for some man. 
 
 5151. That is done in the chapel ? 
 
 No, 1 think it more likely to be done in their wards and cells. 
 
 51.52. And can they communicate between the women's ward and the men's 
 ward i" 
 
 They cannot see each other. 
 
 5153. Can they throw a paper over r 
 Yes. 
 
 5154. Chairman.'] Are the walls which divide the two yards open upon the 
 top? 
 
 They are quite separate ; they cannot see each other, but they can throw 
 anything over. Our building is like a semicii'cle, and if you placed your ear 
 ver}' near to the wall, you could hear talking. 
 
 5155. Lord Steward.] Are there many re-committals to your gaol ? 
 Not more than the average anywhere else. 
 
 5156. Is the average greater or less than it was some years ago ? 
 
 1 almost think it is less the last year or two. I make out an account of them, 
 which I send every year to the Government. 
 
 5157. Earl of Diidleij.] The Committee very distinctly understand from your 
 e-vidence, that there has been an unfavourable repoi-t made more than once, 
 and that report has not been taken into consideration, or been acted upon ? 
 
 That is very true. 
 
 5158. Lord Steward.] Do you think that without a large increase of expen- 
 diture, an improvement in the discipline of the prison could be effected? 
 
 Not in the prison that we have. Our prison was built a few years before 
 they built the Model Prison. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 Mr. GEORGE JULYAN is called in, and examined as follows : Mr.G.Julyan 
 
 3S*. Chairman.] YOU are Governor of Falmouth Gaol, are you not ? ~~ 
 
 im. 
 
 (37. 10.) 3M 5-50. It
 
 458 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 iVr. G. Julyan. 51,59- ^t is a borough gaol, is it not? 
 Yes. 
 
 7th May 1863. 
 
 5160. Since when have you filled the apppointment of gaoler r 
 Upwards of 27 years. 
 
 5161. Had you any previous experience in prison matters before that 
 appointment ? 
 
 No. 
 
 51 02. What is the average daily number of prisoners who are in confinement 
 in your gaol ? 
 
 There are about /O in the year ; and, speaking from recollection, I should say 
 the average was about eight to ten, not moi-e. 
 
 5i()3. Has it frequently sunk a good deal below that number ? 
 Recently it has. 
 
 5 164. Within the last few years how lias it been r 
 The average has sunk down to about seven. 
 
 5 1 6'j. Have you ever had the gaol entirely cleared ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 5166. And have you had as few as one or two prisoners at a time ? 
 Yes. I have only two now at this present time, both men. 
 
 5167. Are both men and women prisoners confined in your gaol ? 
 There are at times. 
 
 5168. Is there a separate part of the prison which is allotted for the women ? 
 Tliere is a separating wall between the two parts of the prison. 
 
 5169. Are the women under the same roof as the men? 
 Y'es, they are under the same roof. 
 
 51 70. Is the women's ward on the ground-floor or upstairs ? 
 On the ground-floor. 
 
 5171. Consequently, there is not a double staircase ? 
 No, not a double staircase. 
 
 5172. Have the men and the women prisoners any opportunity of communi- 
 cating with each other during the day ? 
 
 Noj unless they were to call aloud ; which would be rather dangerous, for 
 fear they would be heard. 
 
 5173. What is the thickness of the wall ? 
 A])out two feet. 
 
 .51 74. Do any of the windows open near upon each other ? 
 None 
 
 5 1 75. In what state of repair is the gaol ? 
 
 It is in pretty good repair it; was built in 1831. 
 
 .5 1 76. Has it been altered since then ? 
 It has been improved. 
 
 5177. Are there any cells for separate confinement which have been certified 
 by the inspector ? 
 
 None. 
 
 5178. Do the prisoners sleep in separate compartments? 
 
 Sometimes, and sometimes th( re are three in association ; we have been so 
 crowdcil that they have slept four or five in the same cell, which has been 
 considered very inconvenient. 
 
 5179. What number of separate compartments for sleeping purposes have 
 you at your disposal ? 
 
 Nine altogether. 
 
 5180. Does that include both the female and male side? 
 Yes; it includes both males and females. 
 
 5181. What
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 459 
 
 5181. What is the largest number of prisoners you have ever had at cue Mr. G. Julyari. 
 time in the prison ? , ,7 ^r 
 
 I think about 27 ; from that to 30. ^ ^^ '^- 
 
 5182. What is the size of those compartments? 
 
 They are not all of one size; there are five that are only about 12 feet 
 by 8 feet, as near as I can recollect. 
 
 5183. What is the smallest of these compartments? 
 
 Those are the smallest ; the largest are about 16 to 18 feet long, and 14 feet 
 wide. 
 
 5184. On occasions when the prison has been full, you iiave been obliged, 
 you say, to put into cells of those dimensions as many as three or four prisoners ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 51 85. What accommodation is there within those cells for sleeping ? 
 Hammocks, like sailors use. 
 
 5186. On those occasions that you have referred to, did you shng four 
 hammocks in one cell ^ 
 
 Yes. 
 
 5187. Did you ever put two prisoners in the same bed together ? 
 
 Yes, we have done it ; but it is not generally done ; we avoid it if possible. 
 There have been two prisoners put into one cell at a time when the prison has 
 been overcrowded. 
 
 5188. Lord Steward.'] How many of those nine cells are applicable to women, 
 and how many to men ? 
 
 There are two applicable to women, the remaining seven to men. 
 
 5189. Lord IFodehouse.] What is the largest number of women you have 
 ever had at one time in the prison ? 
 
 1 think about five, as near as 1 can recollect ; not more than five. 
 
 5190. Lord Stetcard.] Whatever number of male prisoners you might have, 
 you would only have seven cells or compartments available for their reception ? 
 
 No more than that, certainly ; when I say nine, that is the whole number of 
 cells in the prison. 
 
 5191. From that number two must be deducted for the women ? 
 Yes. 
 
 5192. Therefore, if you had a mutiny among the sailors in the various ships 
 in the harbour, and a large number of male prisoners were sent in from any 
 circumstance of that sort, you would only have seven rooms available for them ? 
 
 Just so ; we could not provide for them. 
 
 5193. Chairman.'] I observe that in the Inspector's Report of J861, it is 
 stated that he found that the men were placed in tlie women's wards, and the 
 women were placed in the men's wards ; do you remember that circumstance r 
 
 I do not know what he can mean by that ; it must be a mistake in Mr. Perry's 
 report ; I do not think that ever was the case. 
 
 5194. Mr. Perry iu his Report of 1861 says, " There were onlv two men and 
 three women in confinement at the time of my last inspection ; the men being 
 located in the women's division, and the woman in that destined for men ; " do 
 you remember that circumstance ? 
 
 Perhaps it might have been so on that occasion, for on one side of the prison 
 there could be a communication between the prisoners and the persons living 
 in tlie house adjoining the gaol, and most hkely I removed the women to 
 prevent this communication. 
 
 5 1 9.5. Do those windows overlook the prison windows ? 
 Yes, they do. 
 
 .5196. Are they sufficiently near to admit of communication passing? 
 They could pass in things to them with a rope, or tlirow them down ; I have 
 myself found a box of matches in the yard that had bcnni passed over. 
 
 5197. Would not the same objection apply to putting the men in those 
 (37- 16.) 3 M 2 wards ;
 
 460 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE TAKEN' BEFORE THE 
 
 Mr. G. Julijan. wards ; might not communication be made to them just as well as to the 
 
 women ? 
 
 7th May 1 86 3. [ ^^ ^^^^ recollect at this momi nt what it could have been for, but it must have 
 
 been for some pur[jose of that kind. 
 
 5 1 98. When the men were placed in tlie women's wards, might not commu- 
 nication be made to them, so far as words and conveyance of articles are con- 
 cerned, as to the women ? 
 
 Just so, but there is a difference in the disposition of prisoners. Your Lord- 
 ship is aware that some prisoners are very badly behaved, and others will 
 behave remarkably well ; we put the well-behaved prisoners in the part of the 
 prison which is most opea to communication with persons in the next house. 
 
 5 1 99. Are the Committee to understand that, inasmuch as there are two cells 
 set apart for women and seven for men, on one occasion ihe men were placed in 
 the women's department and the women were transferred to the men's, and that 
 the occupants of these two female wards were mixed up in the cells which are 
 allotted to the men ? 
 
 Yes ; but the men were nut near them at the time. 
 
 .5200. But they were brought within the wall of partition, and into the same 
 part of the gaol ? 
 
 Perhaps I have not made myself sufficiently understood. I'here is a party- 
 wall between them ; tliere are fonr airing-yards, and the males' yards are on 
 one side of that wall and the women's on the other. There is a dvvelling- 
 hou-e adjoining the female part of the prison from which they can communi- 
 cate with the ])risoners ; and in consequence of something that I discovered 
 between the female prisoners and the persons living in the ne.xt house, 1 made 
 this alteration, and removed them. 
 
 ,5201. On both sides of this partition-wall I presume there are passages in 
 the department set aside for the men, and passages also set aside for the 
 women r 
 
 Just so.. 
 
 .5202. And consequently you had to bring the women through the passages, 
 where at the same time you might have been taking some of the male pri- 
 soners ? 
 
 Yes, to lock them up. 
 
 ')-20T,. And, consequently, communications might very easily have passed at 
 such a time ? 
 
 V\'e pass by the men's cells on the way to the females'. 
 
 5204. What is the labour enforced in your gaol ? 
 
 We formerly conijielled them to break stones for macadamizing the roads 
 (but we found that was a dangerous work, for they attempted escape by breaking 
 the iron bars), and, on some occasions, they pick oakum for ship purposes. 
 
 .5-0,). Have you no t)'eadwheel? 
 No, we never had. 
 
 .'•)20f3 Nor a crank? 
 No. 
 
 5207. Was the sole occupation of the prisoners picking oakum ? 
 
 Yes, that and doing the work of the gaol, the painting, and lime-washing, 
 and so forth. 
 
 5208. Does it alwa}s happen that you have a sufficient amount of oakum to 
 pick ? 
 
 No. 
 
 .5J09. When there is not that amount of oakum, what are the prisoners 
 employed upon r 
 
 'J'hey have no occupation any more than painting and doing the ordinary 
 work of the prison. 
 
 S2\o. Therefore, it very frequently happens that the prisoners are in a state 
 of complete idleness ? 
 That has been the case. 
 
 .521 1. Lord
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 461 
 
 5211. Lord Steward. ~] Though thty are senti-nced to hard labour? Mt.G. Julumt. 
 Just so. 
 
 5J12. Chairman.'] On those occasions are they confined in those separate 
 sleeping compartments, or in the day-room ? 
 
 They are in sejjarate apartments, and are allowed to go into the airing-yards 
 at a certain time in the day, and then are locked up again. 
 
 521 ■',. Hovv many hours are they in the airing-yards ? 
 Perhaps two or three hours per day. 
 
 5214. Earl of Diidk'i/.^ Are they associating all together in one yard ? 
 No, there are four yards. 
 
 521.5. Supposing there are ei<iht or ten men in the prison, four or five would 
 be in each yard at the same time ? 
 Yes. 
 
 5216. And do they associate together there without the inspection of an 
 officer ? 
 
 Yes, that is so, 
 
 5217. Lord fVodehousc] Is no officer present with the prisoners whilst they 
 are in the airing-yard ? 
 
 No, they are overlooked ; because the windows of the officers' apartments are 
 facing the airing-yards, so that we can command the prisoners. 
 
 52 1 8. But there is no officer stationed to inspect the prisoners durin"- the 
 time that they are in the airing-yard ? 
 
 No. 
 
 52 1 Q. Lord Stexcard.] Conversation, I presume, is not forbidden? 
 No.- 
 
 5220. Chn/i-mai).] Does not it amount to this, that when you have not 
 sufficient oakum on which to employ the i^risoners, you turn them into the 
 airing-yards ? 
 
 They are turned into the yards as long as we can overlook them ; but the 
 walls are not sufficiently high to prevent their escape, so that I cannot suifer 
 them to be long there without some one being present. 
 
 5221. If you should have occasion to go away, and you turned the key on 
 them, leaving them in the yard, what security have you that they will not escape 
 whilst you are absent ? 
 
 They could not escape without my seeing them. 
 
 5222. Whenever you are absent, is there somebody on the watch r 
 
 I do not allow them to remain in the yard while I am absent ; I lock 
 them up. 
 
 5223. How many warders have you in the prison f 
 Only one. 
 
 5224. Does he live there day and night r 
 
 ■^"es, he lives there. 1 should tell the Committee that the magistrates, only 
 some few years since, appointed a warder, but the town council refused to confirm 
 the order of the justices ; and as the justices have no power to raise the money, 
 they have never paid him. 
 
 5225. How long did he fill the office of warder ? 
 I suppose more than 12. months. 
 
 5.52(3. And did he receive no remuneration for it ? 
 He has got none as yet. 
 
 5227. Is he still employed as warder ? 
 He considers that he is. 
 
 5228. Earl of Dudley.'] Does he still do the duty in hope of being paid ? 
 Yes ; he is my own son. 
 
 5229. Cliairmaii.'\ At this moment, under whose charge is the prison left? 
 Under his charge. 
 
 5230. Earl of Dudlai.] He being an unpaid officer? 
 Yes. 
 
 (37. 16.) 3m3 5231. C/iair/«a?i.] 
 
 7tli May 1863.
 
 462 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mr. G.JuIyan. 5231. Chairman.] Is it not a matter of necessity for Inm at times to go out 
 
 of the liouse ? 
 
 7th May 1863. Ygg^ sometimes he must do so. 
 
 5232. And during that time what happens at the prison ? 
 
 Sometimes there is no one present, and then he locks them inside the bars. 
 I should state that part of my duty is to superintend the police ; I am the 
 superintendent of the police of the borough. 
 
 5233. Then do not your duties very frequently take you away from the 
 •prison ? 
 
 Yes, most assuredly. 
 
 5'yi34. Is it not a matter of common sense that the prisoners must be left 
 under the charge of some other persons if you are called away for other 
 duties for two or three or four hours ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 •-,'235. Can you in any way hold yourself responsible for the safe custody of 
 those prisoners if you have nobody as your delegate in whose charge to leave 
 
 them ? 
 
 Certainly not ; I would not trust them a moment unless they were locked in 
 
 safely. 
 
 523('). But the town council, as 1 understand you, have refused to pay any 
 
 such officer I 
 
 Yes there seems to be some misunderstanding between the town council 
 and the magistrates ; the magistrates want to improve the prison or build a 
 new one ; the town council will not vote the money. 
 
 5237. Lord Woikhouse.'] There is therefore no paid warder at all? 
 
 No. 
 
 5-238. And this so-called warder is merely your own son, whom you employ 
 in your absence to take care of the prison ? 
 
 Yes, just so : what will be the result we do not know yet ; he was properly 
 appointed by the magistrates. 
 
 5239. Cliainnan.] Has the matter ever been brought to the notice of the 
 town council that he is discharging the duty without pay ? 
 
 Yes, repeatedly, by the mayor, who is one of the visiting justices. 
 
 5240. What has their answer been ? 
 
 Thev do not seem to confirm the appointment, they do not pay him. 
 
 5241. Lord Steward.] If it so happened that your son was engaged in any 
 other employment, or left you for any reason, you would be left without any 
 assistant whatever in the prison ? 
 
 Just so. 
 
 5242. And probably under those circumstances you could not obtain one? 
 Just so, I have no power. 
 
 .'-,243. Lord Wodehouse.] Who attends to the female prisoners? 
 
 My wife, who was appointed matron when I was appointed governor. 
 
 5244. Does she receive any salary ? 
 
 Yes, a small remuneration of about 5 I , or something of that sort. 
 
 ,524,'-,. Earl of Dudleij] What do you receive together? 
 About 60 /., with house-rent and coals. 
 
 .^246. What should be the pay of your son as your warder ? 
 He ought not to have less than 50 I. 
 
 ^247. Earl Cathcart.] Is your son a police officer as well ? 
 No, he is not. 
 
 5-:?48. Chairman.] Do }ou consider that the present arrangement is in any 
 degree satisfactory ? 
 
 1 think not. 
 
 5249. Do you feel that you are in any way answerable for the security of the 
 prisoners under such an arrangement ? 
 
 I think that we cannot possibly conform to the Gaol Act under the existing 
 
 state of the prison. 
 
 * ,5250. In
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 463 
 
 5250. In one of the recent reports of the Inspector, it is stated that there Mr. G. Juli/nn. 
 
 was no •watercloset in the women's division of the prison, the cells devoted to 
 
 prisoners of that class being in a very offensive condition ; was that the case '^* ^^^ '^^^' 
 in 1859 ? 
 
 Yes ; I think waterclosets have been erected since that date. 
 
 5251. The Inspector goes on to say that, " As all private remonstrance upon 
 the defects of this prison is unavailing, there is no other alternative ; that the 
 town council are deaf to every suggestion of improvement in this particular, is 
 shown by the following among other proofs of a similar nature : on the 14th 
 July 185G, the mayor and recorder of the borough made the following formal 
 recommendation to the town council, ' We are decidedly of opinion that a 
 watercloset for the women should be erected wdthout delay ;' a proposition 
 founded upon this recommendation was negatived by the town council." Are 
 you aware whether that is a correct statement of the fact ? 
 
 I have no doubt about it ; I know that it is so. 
 
 .'5252. Has any step been taken since then to remedy it? 
 Yes, two waterclosets have been erected. 
 
 52.53. Have the visiting justices ever expressed any opinion that it was a 
 satisfactory arrangement that you, as superintendent of police, should also be 
 gaoler ? 
 
 I think there was something said about that between the magistrates and 
 the inspector, but I do not recollect what reply the magistrates made. 
 
 5254. Lord Wodehouse.] What time do 3-ou lock the prisoners up at night 
 for bed? 
 
 That depends upon the time of year ; in the winter season about between four 
 and five o'clock, and they remain there till about seven in the morning ; and in 
 summer they are locked up at eight o'clock, and unlocked at six in the morning. 
 
 525,5. Are any of the cells lighted at night ? 
 None. 
 
 5256. Are any of them warmed ? 
 None. 
 
 5257. In the case of very cold weather, do you find any inconvenience from 
 the cells not being warmed ? 
 
 They are generally then removed in association into large cells, where there 
 is a fireplace. 
 
 5258. Is any instruction given to the prisoners ? 
 
 No ; the only person who visits them to give them instruction is an officer 
 whom they call a town missionary ; the rector and some members of the Society 
 of Friends (Quakers) occasionally visit them, and afford them religious instruc- 
 tion. 
 
 5259. Earl of Z)i<t?Zez/.] Have you no chaplain ? 
 We have no regularly appointed chaplain. 
 
 5260. Chairman.'] Are you aware, that under the Gaol Act of the 2d and 
 3d of Victoria, it is obligatory upon every gaol that a chaplain should be 
 appointed to it ? 
 
 I am aware of that, and I was present and heard the Inspector of Prisons 
 point out the section to the magistrates. 
 
 5261. Consequently your gaol arrangements are at this moment in direct 
 opposition to the clauses of that Act ? 
 
 Yes ; as I have said, it is not possible that we can conform with the Gaol Act 
 with the present gaol. 
 
 5262. Has that fact also been brought to the knowledge of the town council ? 
 Yes. 
 
 5263. What has been the answer which they have made ? 
 
 I do not recollect ; but the recommendation of the justices, or the Inspector 
 of Prisons, has never been acted upon. 
 
 5264. Have you any surgeon attached to the gaol ? 
 Yes ; there is one appointed every year, at a salary. 
 
 (37- 16.) 3 M 4 5265. What
 
 464 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 3Ir. G. Julyan. 5265. What is his Salary ? 
 
 I think it i? 5 /. a year, and he has to provide medicines out of that. 
 
 7 tli May 1863 . 5266. How often does that inchide a visit from him ? 
 
 Whenever there is a prisoner ill he is sent for, and he frequently calls in 
 passing, and comes into the prison to know if there are any prisoners there, and 
 if there are he sees them. 
 
 5267. Lord Stacard.'] Would he be required to perform any operation for 
 that sum, or would there be an extra payment for an operation ? 
 
 No extra payment ; I have known one surgeon to have a birth there ; a 
 woman was confined in the prison, and he attended her, and she was under his 
 care daily, 1 should think, for a mouth, and all he got was his 5 /. a year. 
 
 5268. Lord fVodthouscI Is your dietary the dietary prescribed by the 
 Government ? 
 
 Yes, as nearly as possible. 
 
 5269. Chairman.'] Do you cook the food within the prison ? 
 Yes, it is all cooked within the prison. 
 
 .5270. Lord Steward.] Is not that diet calculated upon the presumption that 
 the prisoners are doing a certain amount of hard labour, whereas in your gaol 
 there appears to be no employment of any kind ? 
 
 The sentences are generally short, but in giving sentence the magistrates now, 
 when they find that the town council will not employ a prisoner, send a great 
 many prisoners to the county gaol ; and the town council have now to pay for 
 them a long bill of about 300/., which the magistrates have incurred in con- 
 sequence of their not complying with their recommendations. 
 
 5271. Is it your opinion that the Government dietary is not too high for 
 persons leading a life of inactivity ? 
 
 No ; I think for a short term of imprisonment, for 1 4 days for instance, the 
 Government dietai-y is rather sharp, 
 
 5272. You mean whilst they are doing no hard labour? 
 Yes, the lowest scale is very low indeed. 
 
 5273. Chairman.] In one of your previous answers you stated, that for 
 offences committed within the boundary of the borough, the magistrates are in 
 the habit of committing prisoners not to the borough gaol, but to the county 
 gaol. Will you be good enough to explain how that happens r 
 
 It happens in this way : The magistrates do not consider that the gaol is 
 adequate to the wants of the borough, and instead of conunitting the borough 
 prisoners to their own gaol, they commit them to the county gaol. 
 
 .5274. Under what powers do they proceed ? 
 
 They say tliat they have the power under the charter of the borough, and 
 that nothing shall take their power from them of committing a prisoner to the 
 county gaol at Bodmin. They have communicated upon the subject with 
 the county magistrates, and have sent their prisoners to tlie county prison. 
 
 .5275. Has that practice been acquiesced in by the town council? 
 Yes ; and they have been obliged to pay part of the money. 
 
 5276. Have they disputed the right of the magistrates so to commit ? 
 'ihey do not interfere at all with it. 
 
 5277. Lord Jl'odchoasc] Have, in fact, the town council of Falmouth paid 
 'the expense of the prisoners who have been couDuitted to Bodmin Gaol r 
 
 They have. 
 
 5278. Chairman.'] Since then has the number of prisoners within the gaol 
 fallen off considerably ? 
 
 Yes, considerably. 
 
 J279. Are there fewer altogether committed within the borough? 
 
 There is very little difference in tliat respect ; but a great many have been 
 committed to the county gaol since this altercation between the magistrates and 
 the town council. 
 
 5280. Earl of Dudley.] As I understand you, the borough justices are very 
 much opjjosed to the town council with ri'gard to the wants of tlie gaol ? 
 
 Yes ; I believe all the justices, even including the mayor, are opijosed to the 
 town council on that point. 
 
 528i. Lord
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 465 
 
 5281. Lord Wodehouse.'] Has it been suggested that the gaol at Falmouth Mr. G^Jdyan. 
 should be disused, and that the prisoners should be sent to the Bodmin gaol ^^^ ^^^ ^gg^^ 
 under a contract with the county r 
 
 The councd are of opinion that the whole of the prisoners should be sent to 
 the county gaol ; and instead of paying what the county charge the borough, 
 namely, 1 s. 9 d. a day, the town council think that the borough should only 
 pay in proportion to the other parishes, and be assessed to the gaol at the same 
 rate. But the county say, we will not take your prisoners unless you pay us 
 \ s. 9 d. ; we formerly paid 1 s. ; but within the last six months they have 
 increased the sum to 1 .s. 9 ^. a day. 
 
 52.S2. Are the Committee to understand you to state that the town council 
 would have no objection to sending the prisoners to Bodmin gaol under a con- 
 tract with the county, if they could agree as to the terms 1 
 
 They have no objection if they could agree as to the terms ; but the justices of 
 the county say that they will not take their prisoners for less than 1 ^. 9 d. a day. 
 
 5283. What do the pi'isoners cost in Falmouth gaol ? 
 
 Nothing like that ; 22 /. 1 .?. 9 d. is the annual cost of a prisoner in Falmouth, 
 and that includes my salary as superintendent of police as well ; and the 
 coimcil has to pay the cost of conveying the prisoners from Falmouth, 35 miles, 
 to the county gaol. 
 
 .5284. Chairman.'] Will you read from that volume of Judicial Statistics, 
 which is before you, what the cost per head of a prisoner is in the borough gaol 
 of F.ilmouth, and in the county gaol of Bodmin r 
 
 The total in the county gaol is 30/. 7 s. 8 d., and in the borough gaol it is 
 22 /. 1 s. 9 d. 
 
 528.5. Is it not therefore the fact that the reluctance to contract with the 
 county prison arises from the greater expense which the town council would 
 incur ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 5286. And the only point in which the two parties are at issue is one of 
 terms ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 5287. Can you state to the Committee in what particulars it is that the cost 
 of the county gaol at Bodmin is in excess of the borough gaol of Falmouth ? 
 
 The establishment charges are greater. 
 
 5288. What do you designate as the estabhshment charges? 
 The salaries of oBicers. 
 
 5289. Consequently the town council simply keep down the expenses of 
 their prison by allowing you no warder ? 
 
 Just so. 
 
 5290. If they gave you another warder, as you consider to be necessary lor 
 securing the prisoners, or two warders, as the case might be, that would make 
 a material difference, would it not, in bringing the two prisons' charges to an 
 equality ? 
 
 It wovdd. 
 
 5291. The Committee would wish to understand distinctly whether it has 
 been the ordinary practice, under any circumstances, to place more than one 
 prisoner in a single bed ? 
 
 It has been done I think, but very rarely, except when the prison is over- 
 crowded, then we have been obhged to do it. 
 
 5292. Has it been ever the case with the male prisoners ? 
 It is of very rare occurrence, they have separate hammocks. 
 
 5293. Has it not been the case more than once on the female side ? 
 Yes. 
 
 5294. Is not that frequently the case ? 
 
 Yes, two females have frequently slept in one bed. 
 
 5295. Do you attempt any soi't of classification as regards misdemeanants and 
 felons, and untried and convicted prisoners ? 
 
 At all times when the gaol will admit of it. 
 
 (37. 16.) 3 N 5296. Does
 
 466 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 Mr.G.Julyan. 5296. Does it fi'equently happen that you are obUged to place untried pri- 
 
 " — ■ soners with convicted prisoners ? 
 
 '___^^_|_ ^' I have been obUged to do so on one or two occasions, that is to say, when the 
 prison is overcrowded. 
 
 5297. Do you place juvenile prisoners with men and women whom you have 
 known to have been previously convicted? 
 
 INot if it can possibly be avoided, but it has been done. 
 
 5298. Lord Wodeliouse.'] In your opinion would it not create inconvenience, 
 looking at tlie number of seamen who frequently are in the harbour of Falmouth, 
 if there was no gaol at Falmouth, and all the prisoners had to be sent to 
 Bodmin ? 
 
 It would increase the expense of conveyance materially. 
 
 5299. 'KbxV oi Dudlei/.l There must be a lock-up of some sort, must there 
 not? 
 
 Yes, there must be a lock-up ; we cannot do without it. It is my opinion 
 that the present gaol would be just sufficient for a lock-up. Perhaps the Com- 
 mittee will allow me to observe that the tovFU council have found that they 
 have come to a loss, and that the Ti-easur)^ has refused to pay them the amount 
 of Government allowance for prisoners convicted at assizes and sessions, and 
 sentenced to be ini]irisoned in the county gaol. It appears that the county has 
 not charged it to the Government, nor to the borough, and they have now 
 found by the bill returned from the county that it has not been charged to the 
 Treasury, and the borough lias not taken any notice of it, nor charged it to any 
 one, and therefore they are now called upon to pay for the maintenance of 
 those prisoners in the county gaol, and the Treasury refuse to repay them the 
 portion of it which the Government usually allows. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 WILLIAM AUGUSTUS GUY, Esquire, m.b., is again called in, and further 
 
 examined, as follows : 
 
 W. A. Guy, Esq., SjOO. Chairma}/'] YOU are anxious, are you not, to make some explanation 
 ^•'^- or addition to the evidence with which you supplied us the other day? 
 
 I thought it might be advantageous to submit to the Committee a scheme 
 of dietary which I have prepared. But I would wish first of all to state the 
 reasons I have for submitting such a scheme to the Committee. Tiie dietary 
 is drawn out upon the supposition, in the first place, that the dietaries of 
 our prisons ought to promote the first object of imprisonment, the punish- 
 ment of the criminal, by being unattractive without being positively repulsive. 
 Then I would lay it down as a principle, that these dietaries should be 
 such as to pi'cserve the health of the prisoner and his capacity for labour, 
 and protect him from such diseases as scurvy, dysentery and scrofula ; but 
 that it is unreasonable to expect that they should maintain him in the 
 highest possible state of health and vigour. Thirdly, that in arranging these 
 dietaries, it shovdd always be borne in mind that the prisoner is being main- 
 tained at the cost of those very persons who, in their own persons or property, 
 or in the persona or property of those more or less closely connecteil with them, 
 have already sustained injuries more or less severe. For tliis reason, economy 
 should be studied in the arrangement of our dietaries, and otlier things being equal, 
 the cheaper food should always have the preference over the dearer. 4th. Tliat 
 inasmuch as the shorter sentences do not subject the prisoner to that continuous 
 loss of liberty, monotony of life, and tedious separation from relations and friends, 
 which constitute the essence of punishment under the longer sentences, it is 
 expedient to make the dietary under these shorter sentences so scant)^ and 
 uninviting, as to be in itself a punishment. 5th. That inasmuch as prisoners 
 sentenced for longer ])eriods could not be safely submitted to a diet which 
 would prove a punishment to those whose sentences are short, inasmuc^h also 
 as they are punished through prolonged detention, monotony, and separation 
 from kindred and friends, it is less necessary that their diet should be of a 
 penal character. Gth. But that, in order to obviate, as much as possible the 
 very obvious objection that the short sentences as at present arranged, entail 
 the worst, and the long sentences the best diet, it is expedient to construct a 
 scale of successive diets, through which each prisoner should be made tjo pass 
 
 till
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 467 
 
 till his sentence expires, 7th. That in framing the successive dietaries, it is W. A. Guy, Esq., 
 expedient to be guided by some existing dietary or dietaries, which have been '"•^- 
 
 long in use among large bodies of men ; and that the dietaries in force among .^th May i8f)3. 
 
 mihtary prisoners may^with an addition presently to be mentioned, be safely and 
 
 advantageously adopted for this purpose. Then I would further submit one or 
 two propositions affecting the dietaries, both for short and long periods of im- 
 prisonment, which propositions may be safely stated to be the result of experi- 
 ence. The first is this : that there is no valid objection on the score of health 
 to a diet of bread and water, in the case of all prisoners whose sentences do not 
 exceed one week, nor for the period of one week at the commencement of thek- 
 imprisonment, in the case of criminals whose sentences exceed one week. 
 
 5301. Earl of Dvdky.] That carries out what you before proposed, that 
 the dietary of every prisoner should be progressive from the lowest to the 
 highest scale ? 
 
 Yes ; that is in accordance with the view I have abeady expressed to your 
 Lordships. 
 
 5302. Chainnan.'] Will you proceed with your suggestions? 
 
 Secondly, That there is also no vaHd objection, whether in the case of short 
 or of long sentences, to dietaries from which the element of meat is altogether 
 excluded. The next is. That in adjusting the respective dietaries of male and 
 female prisoners, the proportion of food should be made to approximate 
 to the numbers six and five, which figures represent the proportionate 
 average weights of adult males and adult females respectively ; or assuming 
 the same quantities or the liquid elements of the several dietaries to be 
 given to men and women, the proportion of the sohd elements of the 
 dietaries to be as the numbers four and three. For example, if a man is 
 allowed 16 ounces of bread per diem, a woman should be allowed 12 ounces. 
 I next propose, that lads under seventeen shovdd rank with adult women, as 
 is the case with existing dietaries. Then I propose, that for the sake of sim- 
 plicity and uniformity, it is desirable to fix the quantity of bread, in the case of 
 male prisoners, in all the diets at 1 pound per diem, and the quantity of potatoes 
 at either half a pound or one i-ound per diem, according to tlie length of time 
 the prisoner has been in confinement ; and that, if on full experience of tlie 
 dietaries now suggested, a more liberal diet should be deemed necessary, the 
 additions shoukrbe made in elements of the diet other than bread and potatoes. 
 Then I venture to suggest that the medical officers of our prisons should be 
 instructed to use the greatest caution in altering the diets in individual cases, 
 refusing to concede any change at the mere request of the prisoners themselves, 
 and requiring, as their justification for so doing, the presence of actual disease, 
 or distinct marks of the presence of scurvy, or the growth of scrofulou- swell- 
 ings, or a considei'able and progressive loss of weight ; and that no change 
 of dietaries should take place except after a written report of the medical 
 officer, in which distinct reasons should be assigned for the change proposed ; 
 such report to be submitted to the visiting justices for their consideration and 
 approval. These seem to me to be the principles on which it is possible to 
 frame a dietary. 
 
 5303. Will you be good enough now to read to the Committee the dietary 
 which has been constructed on tiiese principles ? 
 
 I would suggest that convicted prisoners imprisoned for a term not exceeding 
 seven days, should be put upon one pound of bread per diem during that period, 
 and an unlimited quantity of water. 
 
 5304. By the reduction of the gruel, you reduce that first class below the 
 present scale ? 
 
 Yes, below the present scale, which allows two pints of gruel per diem. Then, 
 for periods exceeding seven days, and not exceeding 21 days, or to speak more 
 correctly, according to the views which I have submitted to the Committee, 
 after seven days and up to 21 days, one pound of bread as before, and half a 
 pound of potatoes. Then in the case of prisoners whose sentences exceed 
 21 days, and do not exceed six weeks, or (to speak in accordance with the view of 
 a progressive dietary which 1 have submitted) alter 2 1 days, and up to six weeks, 
 one pound of bread, half a pound of potatoes, and two pints of oatmeal gruel. 
 Then, the fourth dietary would be for periods exceeding six weeks, and not 
 exceeding four months, or after six weeks and up to four months, one pound 
 of bread per cUem as before, half a pound of potatoes as before, eight ounces 
 
 (37. 16.) 3 N 2 of
 
 468 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 fy . A 
 
 Guy, Esq., 
 
 M.B. 
 
 7th May 1863. 
 
 of oatmeal made into porridge with half a pint of milk, for breakfast ; six 
 ounces of Indian meal, also with half a pint of milk, for dinner, the potatoes 
 being added to that meal as well as a part of the bread ; and in that case the 
 allowance of milk would be at the rate of one pint per diem. The next class, 
 those exceeding four months and not exceeding one year, or to speak more 
 correctly, after four months and up to one year, bread as before one pound, 
 potatoes increased to one pound, oatmeal eight ounces, the same as before : 
 Indian meal eight ounces, increased from six ounces ; milk as before, one pint 
 per day ; and then lastly, for the class exceeding one year in the borough and 
 county prisons, that is to say, after one year until the expiration of their 
 sentence in those prisons, I should suggest one pound of bread, per diem, as 
 in the former class, one pound of potatoes, per diem, 10 ounces of oatmeal, 
 10 ounces of Indian meal, and now one pint and a half of milk. I beg leave 
 to hand in this Table : 
 
 Proposed Dietaries for Couxty and Borough Prisons. 
 
 
 PROPOSED DIETARIES. 
 
 REMARKS. 
 
 EXISTING DIETARIES, 
 as recommended by the Home Office. 
 
 
 
 Per Day. 
 
 Per Week. 
 
 ;' One pound of bread per diem,"j 
 
 is the common allowance for pri- ' 
 
 _son offences ... -J 
 
 Bread 
 
 Per Day. 
 
 Per Week. 
 
 1. 
 
 Convicted prisoners ;"| 
 any term not exceeding 7 [• 
 days ... -J 
 
 
 
 1 pound 
 
 7 pounds. 
 
 Bread 
 
 I pound - 
 
 7 pounds 
 
 Oatmeal gruel - 
 
 2 pints - 
 
 2 pints. 
 
 2. 
 
 Weekly Total c 
 
 f solid food 
 
 112 ounces 
 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 112 ounces. 
 
 Exceeding 7 days ; nofl 
 exceeding 21 days ; or 
 after 7 days, and up to 21 j' 
 days ... -J 
 
 Bread 
 Potatoes - 
 
 1 pound - 
 ;t pound - 
 
 7 pounds 
 Sj pounds 
 
 r The early introduction of the ] 
 potato, is recommended on ac- 1 
 count of its anti-scorbutic pro- 1 
 perties ... - .-J 
 
 Bread 
 
 Oatmeal gruel . 
 
 lij pounds 
 2 pints - 
 
 lOJ pounds. 
 2 pints. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Weekly Total c 
 
 f solid food 
 
 168 ounces 
 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 I G8 ounces. 
 
 3. 
 
 
 
 
 - The addition of 2 pints of oat-~| 
 meal gruel is deemed sufficient for 
 this short term. It should be 
 
 Bread 
 
 1^ pounds 
 
 8| pounds. 
 
 Exceeding 21 days ; notl 
 exceeding G weeks ; or ( 
 
 Bread 
 
 1 pound - 
 
 7 pounds 
 
 Oatmeal gruel - 
 
 2 pints - 
 
 14 pints. 
 
 Pot^itoes - 
 
 I pound - 
 
 3^ pounds 
 
 Potatoes - 
 
 - 
 
 4 pounds. 
 
 after 21 days, and up to G f 
 weeks - . - -J 
 
 Gruel (oatmeal) 
 
 2 pints - 
 
 14 pints - 
 
 salted and sweetened as in the 
 .recommended diet - - -- 
 
 Meat 
 Soup 
 
 - 
 
 ounces. 
 2 pints. 
 
 
 Weekly Total 
 
 f solid food 
 
 1G8 ounces 
 
 In this dietary the bread is in^ 
 
 
 
 210 ounces. 
 
 4. 
 
 
 
 
 excess of the military allowance 
 
 
 
 
 Exceeding G weeks ; not 
 exceeding 4 months ; or 
 
 Bread 
 
 1 pound - 
 
 7 pounds 
 
 up to 50 days, by halfa-pound a 
 
 Bread 
 
 li pounds 
 
 10^ pounds. 
 
 Potatoes - 
 
 i pound - 
 
 3i pounds 
 
 day ; the half pound of potatoes 
 
 Oatmeal gruel - 
 
 2 pints - 
 
 14 pints. 
 
 Oatmeal 
 
 8 ounces - 
 
 3i pounds 
 
 1 does not exist in the military I 
 
 Potatoes - 
 
 - 
 
 2 pounds. 
 
 after G weeks, and up to 4 
 
 Tndian mpal — 
 
 G ounces - 
 
 42 ounces 
 
 diet. As a set off to this excess, / 
 
 Meat 
 
 - 
 
 12 ounces. 
 
 months - - - - 
 
 Jlilk 
 
 1 pint 
 
 7 pints - 
 
 the Indian meal of the military 
 
 diet is reduced fiom 9 to 6 ounces, 
 
 and the milk from IJ pint to 1 
 
 ^pint per diem - - - • ' 
 
 Soup 
 
 
 3 pints. 
 
 
 Weekly Total c 
 
 f solid food 
 
 266 ounces 
 
 This dietary is in excess of the ^ 
 
 
 
 212 ounces. 
 
 5. 
 
 
 
 
 penal class diet of Millbank by 
 4 ounces bread and 8 ounces 
 
 
 
 
 Exceeding 4mcnths;not 
 exceeding lyear; or after 
 4 months, and up to 1 year 
 
 Bread 
 
 I pound 
 
 7 pounds 
 
 Bread 
 
 22 ounces 
 
 154 ounces. 
 
 Potatoes - 
 
 1 pound 
 
 7 pounds 
 
 potatoes per diem ; but it falls 
 
 Oatmeal gruel* - 
 
 2 pints - 
 
 14 pints. 
 
 Oatmeal - 
 Indian meal 
 
 8 ounces 
 8 ounces 
 
 56 ounces 
 56 ounces 
 
 ' short of it by 2 ounces oatmeal 
 and 2 ounces Indian meal per diem, 
 
 Potatoes. . 
 
 Meat. 
 
 Soup. 
 
 1 pound . 
 
 7 pounds 
 IC ounces. 
 
 JlUk 
 
 I pint - 
 
 7 pints - 
 
 and by half a pint of milk per diem. 
 
 . 
 
 3 pints. 
 
 
 
 
 
 It would probably prove equally 1 
 
 • On three days 
 
 Cocoa, 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ^wholesome and nutritious - 
 
 of the week. 
 
 pint for 
 thegruel. 
 
 
 
 Weekly Total of solid food 
 
 33G ounces 
 
 
 
 ... 
 
 - 
 
 282 ounces. 
 
 6. 
 
 
 
 
 This diet is in excess of the 
 penal class diet of Millbank by 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Exceeding 1 year; not- 
 exceeding ?, years ; or after 
 1 year, till the expiration 
 of sentence in county and 
 borough prisons - -■> 
 
 Bread 
 
 1 pound 
 
 7 pounds 
 
 4 ounces of bread and 8 ounces 
 
 
 
 
 Potatoes - 
 
 1 pound 
 
 7 pounds 
 
 of potatoes, and it reaches the full 
 
 
 
 
 Oatmc;tl - 
 
 10 ounces 
 
 70 ounces 
 
 . allowances of that diet in oatmeal, 
 
 
 
 
 Indian meal 
 
 10 ovincos 
 
 70 ounces 
 
 1 Indian meal, and milk. It is 
 
 
 
 
 Milk 
 
 15 pint - 
 
 lO.J pints 
 
 1 believed to be a wholesome and 
 1 nutritious diet for men undergoing 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 hard labour - - - - 
 
 
 
 
 
 Weekly Total 
 
 of solid food 
 
 364 ounces 
 
 
 - 
 
 
 
 Arrangement of Meals in the several Dietaries.-The pound of bread in Class I to be g.ven to the prisoner every morn ng or t« >ce a day, m 8 ounce 
 rations or three times a dav, in rations of G. G, and 4, for breakfast, dinner, and supper. The potatoes, of course always at dinner. The oatmeal gruel at 
 breakfak and suprer, as in the recommended diet. The oatme,al, made into porridge with half a pint of m,lk, for breakfast. The Indian meal with 
 the like Zntitv of milk, at ilinner. In Dietaries 4. 5, and G, the bread to be distributed thus :- Breakfast and dinner. 4 ounces each ; supper 
 8 ounces. 'But minor details to be left to the authorities of the several prisons. For women, the liquid elements to be as with men, but the solid food less by 
 one.foarth.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 469 
 
 I have assumed throughout that there is no meat element in the dietaries, w. A. Guy, Esq., 
 With regard to the one ])ound of hread j)er diem, I assume that there can be no i^i-u. 
 
 reason why a prisoner for one week should not be put upon one pound of bread ' _ 
 
 per diem ; for in all prison punishments, both in military prisons and I be- ' ^ ^^ 
 lieve in other prisons, and certainly in convict prisons, that is the punishment 
 diet of those who are confined for three days in the dark cells ; and one's expe- 
 rience shows that being already prisoners, and being presumed to have suffered 
 somewhat from imprisonment, they do go through tlieir three days in the dark 
 cells upon bread and water without material injury to health. Some men and 
 some women are continually incurring that punishment ; and recently prisoners 
 in ISIillbank have been put on bread and water for a week or ten days with im- 
 punity. I would still further strengthen what 1 have stated in reference to this 
 first diet, by calhng the attention of the Committee to the cases which we see 
 frequently at Millbank, of prolonged abstinence. Prisoners who are not of 
 unsound mind, but who, for objects of their own, pretend to be of unsound 
 mind, or wish otherwise to make themselves troublesome, will take no food at 
 all (with the exception of having access to water) for two, three and four days 
 together, in many instances for five days together ; and, in two instances, one 
 under my own knowledge, and one which has been reported to me by an officer 
 whom I can trust, for 10 days. I therefore argue, that if such periods of volun- 
 tary abstinence are possible, and the prisoner not only survives but is not thrown 
 into a state of actual disease, but goes back immediately to the ordinary prison 
 diet, til ere is a fair presumption that every prisoner, unless excused for medical 
 reasons, may be safely put upon bread and water for that one week. Then, 
 with regard to the second dietary, namely, that for prisoners after seven days 
 and up to 21 days : I introduce there the element of half a pound of potatoes ; 
 and my reason for introducing that in preference to the oatmeal gruel is, that 
 the potato has been proved to be one of the best anti-scorbutics ; and there- 
 fore, in the case of such prisoners as might come into prison somewhat below 
 par, for instance, tramp^, vagrants and mendicants who may have been already 
 submitted to some dietary difficulties, who may not have had a full supply of food, 
 it would be safer to introduce early in their dietaries an anti-scorbutic element. 
 1 should therefore prefer half a pound of potatoes to oatmeal gruel, as the 
 next addition to be made to the one povmd of bread. On the third dietary, after 
 21 days, and up to six weeks, I have no other observation to make, but that 
 I introduce thei'e, by way of somewhat strengthening that diet, the two pints 
 of oatmeal gruel allowed in the two preceding dietaries in the diet scale recom- 
 mended by the Home Office. Then on the dietary which applies to prisoners 
 after six weeks, and up to four months, I would observe that one pound of 
 bread per day is in excess of the military allowance up to 56 days by half 
 a pound a day, and that the half ])ounil of potatoes does not exist at all in the 
 military diet, the absence of the potato element being the defect of that diet. 
 Some years ago scurvy broke out amongst military prisoners in IMillbank, when 
 it did not exist amongst other prisoners around them, and, as Dr. Baly clearly 
 showed, from the omission of this potato element ; but as a set-off to this 
 excess in the matter of bread and potatoes, I have thought it expedient to 
 reduce the Indian meal of the military diet from nine ounces to six ounces, and 
 also the milk from one and a half pint per diem to one pint per diem. Then 
 with regard to that diet which applies to prisoners after four months and up to 
 one year, I would observe that the diet which I have suggested is in excess of 
 the penal class diet of Millbank (of the sufficiency of which, I think we have 
 had ample evidence), by four ounces of bread and eight ounces of potatoes per 
 diem. 1 think that this is a sufficient set-off for the extra two ounces of oat- 
 meal and two ounces of Indian meal and half a pint of milk per diem of that 
 diet, and 1 think that the new diet would probably prove equally wholesome 
 and nutritious. Then with regard to the last dietary, which applies to prisoners 
 alter the expiration of one year's sentence, and for any time which may still 
 remain to be served in prison, I would observe that the diet which I suggest 
 is in excess of the penal class diet at Millbank by four ounces of bread and 
 eight ounces of potatoes per diem, and that it reaches the fuU allowances 
 of that diet in oatmeal, Indian meal, and milk ; and I believe it to be a 
 wholesome and nutritious diet, and adapted not only to prisoners who like 
 our penal class, are shut up without any labour except coir picking, but 
 also to such prisoners as are undergoing what is usually termed hard labour. 
 (37. 16.) 3 N 3 I have
 
 4/0 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. A. Gut,, £^v, 1 lia^'e added a column to the table, showing the existing dietaries by way o£ 
 
 M.ii. ' " ' contrast. I propose that the pound of bread in class 1 should be given to the 
 
 _ - — prisoners every morning, or twice a day in eight ounce rations, or three times/ 
 
 7 t i,uj ibb 3. ^^ (lay in rations of six, six and four 'for breakfast, dinner and supper; the 
 
 potatoes of course, always at dinner. Tlie oatmeal gruel at breakfast and 
 
 supper. The oatmi-al made into porridge with half a pint of milk for breakfast. 
 
 The Indian meal, with the like quantity of milk at dinner. In dietaries, 4, 5 and 
 
 6, the bread to be distributed thus :— Breakfast and dinner four ounces each, 
 
 supper eight ounces. I propose, when there is only one pint per day, that there 
 
 should be no milk with the supper meal, but I suggest that the minor details 
 
 should be left to the authorities of the separate prisons. For women, the hquid 
 
 elements should be the same as for men, but the solid food should be less 
 
 by one-fourth. 
 
 530,-,. The potato element forms a very important part of this diet, does 
 it not .- 
 It does. 
 
 5306. The object, as I understand, being to prevent anything like scurvy ? 
 That is the object. 
 
 5307. In the event of a difficulty occurring with regard to the purchase of 
 potatoes, what substitute would you recommend ; is there any substitute which 
 •would be equally good ? 
 
 I think that, in the event of a failure of potatoes, it would be desirable 
 to substitute for the potato, wherever it occurs in the dietaries, a soup which 
 should contain as much of the vegetable or pot-herb element as can be put into 
 it, so as to make it a good, nutritious soup, with a certain quantity of meat ; 
 I think the difficulty of the case is best answered in that way. 
 
 5308. Can you put in to the Committee a proposal, with the precise figures, 
 witli regard to soup, and the element of meat contained in soup, which would 
 be a substitute for potatoes? 
 
 Yes, I could do so. 
 
 5309. In the event of a failure of potatoes, is there any other vegetable 
 which, in your opinion, would hold the same position 1 
 
 1 should doubt whether there was any vegetable which could be got at a 
 cheap rate, that would hold the same position ; onions, if they were cheap, 
 would partially supply the want of potatoes, and cabbage also, and turnip-tops. 
 
 5310. That would only be administered in small quantities r 
 
 Yes ; when, the potato failed, any green vegetable which might happen to be 
 economical, might be given. 
 
 531 1. I understand, -also, that the 4th Class represents, as nearly as possiljle, 
 after the variations which you have described, the same amount of nutrition 
 which you now have in the diet of prisoners confined in military prisons under 
 56 days ? 
 
 It does pretty nearly, with the exceptions that I have pointed out. 
 
 5312. And that the 5th Class, as a whole, is in excess of the penal class diet 
 at Millbauk ? 
 
 It is in excess in some respects, and in defect in others ; it 13 rather in excess, 
 and fully up to the standard of that diet. 
 
 5313. Would you see any objection on the ground of precaution to adding 
 either in tlie 5lli or in the Oth Class, a pint of soup on every alternate day ? 
 
 I see no objection to it ; it would, I think, be quite as desirable as the Indian 
 meal pudding, and perhaps it would have some advantage over it, because 
 the soup would contain some of those vegetable elements which it is so impor- 
 tant that all dietaries should have. 
 
 5314. If you added a pint of soup on alternate days, or even on the fourth 
 or fifth days of the week, in the last class, the Gth Class, would you be prepared 
 to make that soup a substitute for those other elements which you would cut 
 out of the diet, or would you think it under any circumstances desirable, as a 
 precaution and safeguard against ])ossible mischief, to make that addition ? 
 
 I should not make tliat addition in any case, but I would substitute it. I 
 
 would
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 471 
 
 ■would give to the prison authorities the option of substituting it for tlie Indian W. A. Guy, Esq., 
 meal pudding. *''^' 
 
 531,5- Would one pint of soup be a fair equivalent in the 5th Class for eight 7th May 1863. 
 ounces of Indian meal ? — 
 
 I think it would, that is to si\y, for the eight ounces of Indian meal with half 
 a pint of milk, which makes it into a pudding. The soup should contain at 
 least three ounces of meat, the onion, and the usual pot-herbs, and I think also 
 a certain quantity of treacle, and a certain small quantity of vinegar. 
 
 53 iG. Would you see any objection to reducing on alternate days the eight 
 ounces of Indian meal to four ounces, and substituting for the four ounces thus 
 struck off a pint of soup ? 
 
 I would rather substitute the soup wholly for the Indian meal pudding, on 
 alternate days. I think it would be simpler and better. 
 
 53 1 7. Would an ordinary pint of soup, containing only three ounces of meat 
 be a sufficient substitute for the eight ounces of Indian meal ? 
 
 Soup containing three ounces of meat and vegetables, and perhaps thick- 
 ened with a little oatmeal, and with any bread that may remain over from the 
 previous day : a souj) so thickened and strengthened, would be, I think, a fair 
 substitute. 
 
 531 8. Would you not entertain any apprehension that this diet might be too 
 monotonous for the prisoners ? 
 
 I do not think it would be too moiiotonous, for the reason that we have very 
 large experience in Millbank at present, of prisoners who are put upon the 
 penal class diet consisting of similar elements, and kept upon it for a consi- 
 derable time as a punishment ; and we know that they do not look upon this 
 diet as more of a punishment than the ordinary diet of the prison, but frequently 
 prefer it, and say that they do so. 
 
 5319. From your experience, you would not be afraid of any risk of a pri- 
 soner nauseating his food after a certain time ? 
 
 No ; I think there is quite variety enough to prevent that, especially if soup 
 were introduced in place of Indian meal pudding. At Millbank, the five 
 ounces of meat every day, and that without exception the same meat, [troves 
 more nauseating to the prisoner than the Indian meal pudding ; but occasionally 
 we are called upon to put these penal-class prisoners for a few days on rice 
 pudding, by way of a change. 
 
 5320. Even if the meat came on alternate days ? 
 
 If it came on alternate days, of course the monotony would be destroyed by 
 tlie very fact of alternation. 
 
 5321. In your opinion, would four ounces of cooked meat be a fair equivalent 
 for eight ounces of Indian meal ? 
 
 It would be a fair equivalent. I do not say it would be an exact equiva- 
 lent, but I should be quite satisfied with it. 
 
 5322. Would five ounces of meat in the 6th Class be a fair equivalent for 
 10 ounces of Indian meal ? 
 
 I think four ounces would be sufficient, or a tolerably strong soup containing 
 tliree ounces of meat. 
 
 5323. You would not be afraid upon this diet of employing a man at hard 
 labour at the treadwheel, or the crank, or at shot drill .- 
 
 I should not be afraid of doing so. 
 
 5324. Even if the allowance of hard labour ran as high as six or even eight 
 hours a day ? 
 
 No ; I should not be afraid of it. At the same time, all new suggestions 
 require to be tried ; but I am quite certain that we have been too timid in this 
 matter of diet, and that many of our extravagancies and inconsistencies in diet 
 have originated out of an extreme and undue timidity. 
 
 532.5- Earl of Dticie.] Is this diet one which you recommend, or is it merely 
 one which you have drawn up in order to show how a diet may be framed 
 without the meat element in it ? 
 
 I have partly drawn it up to show how a diet may be framed without the 
 (37, 10.) 3 N 4 meat
 
 472 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 W. A. Guy, Etq., meat element in it, but at the same time I should be prepared to recommend it 
 M-B- for trial. 
 
 7th May 1863. 532(). Earl Cat/icaii.j With regard to the cost of milk, do you think that 
 
 under some circumstances there might be a difficulty in getting a supply of 
 
 milk for a large prison ? 
 
 I should think not. The cost of milk is not very great. As supplied at Mill- 
 bank, the cost of milk is \0d. per gallon, or l^d. per pint ; therefore it is not 
 an expensive element of diet. 
 
 5327. Do you find any difficulty in Millbank in obtaining a sufficient supply 
 of milk at all seasons of tlie year ? 
 
 ^Ve never have any difficultv upon that score. 
 
 5328. Do you prefer the best white bread or brown bread ? 
 I should prefer brown bread. 
 
 .5329. Do you consider the brown bread more wholesome ? 
 I consider that in most cases brown bread is more wholesome, and also more 
 nutritious. 
 
 .^3.30. When you speak of the diet of military prisons, are you aware that a 
 short time ago the surgeons of the Army represented that the diet was not 
 sufficient, and consequentlj^ the diet was inci'eased ? 
 
 Yes; but that was, 1 presume, prior to 1861, when Sir Joshua Jebb issued 
 his report on military prisons. 
 
 5331. Has not the military diet been increased since 1861 ? 
 
 I am not aware of any increase in the dietary since 1861. The report 
 of 1861 refers to the improved scale of diet which had been used in the 
 military prison at Aldei-shot since 1858, and which was provisionally adopted 
 for the military prisons on the Home stations in September 1861. For periods 
 exceeding 56 days, a quantity of meat is introduced into this dietary. 
 
 5332. Are you aware that that is the last scale of diet in the mihtary 
 prison r 
 
 I cannot say that of my own knowledge ; I do not know of anything more 
 recent. 
 
 5333. You have referred to militar}^ prisoners, and also to prisoners in county 
 prisons ; can you state to the Committee what standard of prisoners you would 
 assume in calculating your table of diet r 
 
 I should take that mixed class of prisoners which you have in all civil prisons 
 without exception, not merely robust prisoners, but men who come in, some 
 of them in impaired health, some of them scrofulous, some of them consump- 
 tive, though not perhaps actually labouring under consumption at the time, and 
 some who come in deformed and evidently weak ; that is to say, less vigorous 
 and strong than their neighbours. I would take the whole group of prisoners as 
 they present themselves one with another. 
 
 5334. In speaking of military prisons, do you bear in mind that they are 
 mainly picked and able-bodied men ? 
 
 I do bear that in mind ; and I think that a dietary which is suitable to a 
 soldier, and to such soldiers as 1 myself am constantly seeing at Millbank, is 
 surely well suited to the average of our pi-isoners, who are not such \'igorous men. 
 
 53'35- Chairman.} Have you any other suggestion that you wish to make to 
 the Committee ? 
 
 I would merely wish, in order to complete the statements I have made with 
 regard to the relative diet of different (^lasses of men, to state, that I find on 
 taking seven different returns (two returns from London, and the others from 
 the country), of the dietary of able-bodied male paupers, that the quantity of 
 solid food of all kinds which they have, amounts to 191 ounces in a week, and 
 that the dietary recommended for the (-ounty and borough gaols gives an 
 aggregate of 282 ounces per week, there being a difference of about 91 
 ounces in the week in favour of the prisoner as against the pauper; the only 
 difference in favour of tlie j)auper being, that there is a somewhat greater 
 variety in his dietary ; that is to say, that he has more elements of diet, a few 
 small things, such as tea, butter, cheese, are given to him, which are not allowed 
 to a prisoner. 
 
 533('. May
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 473 
 
 5336. May those Poor Law Tables, from which you have compiled that w. A. Guy, Esij- 
 result, be accepted as fair specimens illustrative of the diet in use in the unions >i.b. 
 witliin the districts from which they are taken? 7th May 18G3. 
 
 Yes, I think so ; they are taken without selection. They were given to me 
 from the Poor Law Board without selection ; one is from Leighton Buzzard ; 
 another is from King's Lynn ; another from Bridport ; another from Altrin- 
 cham ; one from Paddington ; one from St. Olaves, Southwark, and one from 
 Ashton-under-Lyne. 
 
 5337. You have not picked them, with reference to any particular view of 
 your own, in order to prove anything special r 
 
 No ; they were merely such as were given to me at the time, entirely without 
 selection. 
 
 The Witness is directed to withdraw. 
 
 [Adjourned. 
 
 (37. 16.) 3
 
 [ 47i 
 
 LIST OF APPENDIX. 
 
 Appendix A. 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Explanation- of Exercises with Heavy Shot, as a means of enforcing a Sentence of Hard 
 Labour ..-....-.-----. 477 
 
 Appendix B. 
 
 Paper delivered in by Major WiUiam Fulford, r.a., 17 March 1863 : 
 
 Amended Table of Dietaries, County Gaol, Stafford, 1852 ------ 430 
 
 Appendix C. 
 
 Papers delivered in by William Mnsson, Esq., 17 March 18G3 : 
 
 Notice to Prisoners under Sentence of Hard Labour ------- 452 
 
 Scale of Crank Labour to be enforced during a Sentence of Imprisonment ■with Hard 
 Labour ----..----...- 432 
 
 Appendix D. • 
 
 Return of the Number of Criminal Prisoners committed to the County Gaol and House of 
 Correction at Reading, during the Years 1853 to 1862, excluding Debtors, but not Re- 
 examinations ----- -....-.. 434 
 
 Return of the Number of Criminal Prisoners committed to the County Graol and House of 
 Correction at Reading, who have been previouslv committed - - ' - - - - 434 
 
 Return of the Number of Vagrants committed to the House of Con-ection at Reading during 
 the Years 1853 to 1862 -.-... 434 
 
 Return of the Number of Cases, and also the Number of Coimty Prisoners prosecuted at 
 Assizes and Sessions during the Years 1859 to 1862 ------- 434 
 
 Employment of Prisoners ------------ 434 
 
 Return of the Number of Prisoners in Reading and Abingdon Gaols, omitting Debtors and 
 Persons under Examination, for the last Ten Years; viz., 18.33 to 1862, inclusive - - 435 
 
 Return of Net Charge on County Rates during the same Period - - - . . 455 
 
 Dietaries. — County Gaol, Reading, Berks --.. 435 
 
 Abstract of Expenditure for County Gaol at Reading, for the Quarter from 20th December 
 1862 to 20th March 1863 inclusive, 91 days 437 
 
 Appendix E. 
 
 Papers delivered in by Edward Shepherd, Esq., 21 April 1363 : 
 
 Annual Average Number of Criminals committed to the West Riding Prison, Wake- 
 field, in the Five Years ending 1831, compared with those committed in the Five Years 
 ending 1861, or 30 Years after ---------- 490 
 
 Scale of Diet recommended for all Prisoners in England and Wales, showing the Quan- 
 tities of Food in Ounces per Week ..-.---.- 490 
 
 Appendix F. 
 
 Papers delivered in by William Oakley, Esq., 24 April 1363 : 
 
 Statement of Weekly Allowance of Diet for Adult Males, according to the Dietary 
 Tables of 46 Union Workhouses --------- - 491 
 
 Statement of Weekly Allowance of Diet for Male Prisoners (on the highest Class), 
 
 according to the Dietary Tables of 50 County Gaols ------ 492 
 
 Return showing Comparison of Five Years of Treadwheel and Oakum-picking Labour 
 for Prisoners, with Five Years of useful Employment to a limited Extent - - - 493 
 
 (37— App.) 3 2
 
 [ 476 ] 
 
 Appendix G. 
 
 Paper delivered in by William Golden Lumley, Esq., 24 April 1803 : 
 
 Letter from Edwin Chadwick, Esq., dated 4tli December 1835, to Boards of Guardians, 
 enclosing Dietaries ----..-..-.- 494 
 
 Appendix H. 
 Amended Table of Dietaries for Prisoners in Norwich Castle ----.. 498 
 
 Appendix I. 
 
 Section of the Treadwheel in use in Petworth Gaol, delivered in by W. Linton, Esq., 30 April 
 1863 ....---.-.-. fulluiuing page 500 
 
 Appendix K. 
 
 Paper furnished by James Anthony Gardner, Esq. : 
 
 Her Majesty's Gaol, Bristol. — Description of a Person giving the Name of A. B. C. - 501 
 
 Views of Her Majesty's Gaol Chapel, Bristol, designed and built by the Governor, 
 Mr. Gardner, who erected the same by the Labour of the Prisoners, and paid the 
 whole Expense of the Building by the proceeds of their Industry - followmg jiage 502 
 
 Appendix L. 
 
 Letter from Mr. Charles A. Keene to the Right Hon. the Earl of Carnarvon ... 503 
 
 Appendix M. 
 
 Paper delivered in by Thomas Harpur Colvill, Esq., 7 May 1863 : 
 
 Dietary Table of the House of Correction, Coldbath Fields ----- 504 
 
 Appendix N. 
 
 Papers furnished by Dr. Edward Smith : 
 
 Analysis of Replies ------------- 505 
 
 Tabular Analysis of Letters received by Dr. Edward Smith from Governors of County 
 Gaols, 1858 507 
 
 Calculation of the Quantity of nutritive Elements (Carbon and Nitrogen) aflbrded by 
 the Diet in Military Prisons- - - - - - - - - - -511 
 
 Appendix O. 
 
 Paper furnished bj- T. H. Colvill, Governor of House of Correction, Coldbath Fields, 
 12 May 1863: 
 
 Return showing the Results of Monthly Weighing of Prisoners who had not been 
 weighed for Six Months ---....-.-- 512
 
 [ 477 ] 
 
 APPENDIX, 
 
 Appendix A. 
 
 EXPLANATION of Exercises with Heavy Shot, as a means of enforcing a Appendix A. 
 
 Sentence of Hard Labour. 
 
 The following diagrams show the exercises which have been can-led into effect in the 
 military prisons in England, and which are to be adopted in all prisons under these regula- 
 tions in the United Kingdom. 
 
 In the colonies, the visitors will exercise their discretion as to the shot exercise being 
 applicable, or otherwise, to the circumstances. 
 
 The disposition of the shot for exercise will depend on the shape of the ground, and the 
 number of men to be exercised. 
 
 As a general rule, there should be an interval of from four to six paces between each, in 
 order to prevent prisoners, when at exercise, communicating with each other. If, however, 
 the space is too limited to allow of such an interval, a distance of one pace is sufficient. 
 
 The exercise, as far as circumstances permit, is to be continued for an hour and a half 
 at a time, and repeated with the prescribed intervals, according to the regulations. 
 
 If a prisoner falls out for any purpose during shot exercise, he is to be required to make 
 up the time by remaining ten minutes after the class is dismissed, for every such occasion, 
 unless it shall be certified by the medical officer, that the state of the prisoner's health 
 rendered it unavoidable. 
 
 As a general rule, the first and second classes will be exercised with 24-lb. shot, and the 
 third class with 32-lb. shot. 
 
 (;J7 — App.) 3 3 Explanation
 
 478 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix A. 
 
 Explanation of Diar/ram and Exercise No. 1. 
 
 A is a long narrow pile of 24-lb. or 32-lb. shot, which are to be transferred to B, where 
 there is a frame to receive them. Besides the shot in the pile, a single shot is placed on 
 the o-niund, or in a small frame,* at the points 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. The prisoners are arranged, 
 as shown, facing outwards. On a given word, the two lines glance their eyes to A, to 
 take the time ; when No. 1 makes the signal hj holding up liis hand, the whole stoop 
 quickly ; each man takes up the shot in front of him, moving briskly towards the pile B, 
 till he comes to the spot quitted by the man who was next to him ; he then halts. No. 6 of 
 each line thus halts at B, and gives the signal, on which the whole place their shot in the 
 boxes, or on the ground in front of them ; after which they come to the position of atten- 
 tion. Takinii- the time from No. 6, they then march back to their original positions, ready 
 to lift another shot on a signal from No. 1, and so on. 
 
 Thus, No. 1 takes a shot to where No. 2 stood, whilst No. 2 is taking one to No. 3, each 
 returning empty-handed to his original position. 
 
 In this manner, the whole pile at A is removed, and when the last shot of the pile is 
 placed at No. 2, the exercise is reversed, and the pile is transferred back from B to A. 
 
 Explanation of Diagram and Exercise No. 2. 
 
 This exercise may be carried on by two or three ranks placed at four or more paces 
 apart, all facing inwards. 
 
 The movements are made by signal, as before explained, and when the pile to be 
 removed is exhausted, tlie exercise is reversed, and the shot are carried back again. 
 
 Explanation of Diagram and Exercise No. 3. 
 
 Small piles of shot may be moved from A to B, and from C to D, and back, each 
 man working on his own ground, and the distance between the ranks may be from six to 
 eight jiaces, or as much more as may be convenient. 
 'Men for this exercise may fall in one or two lines, if more convenient. 
 
 Explanation of Diagram and Exercise, No. 4. 
 
 The shot may be placed in two lines, or in the form of a rectangle, at equal distances 
 of from four to six or eight paces apart, and the men fall in, each with a shot in front of 
 him.f On a given word or signal, each man lifts his shot, and, facing as may be ordered, 
 moves smartly to the spot which the man next to him quitted ; there he halts, sets down 
 the shot by signal, and comes up to the position of attention after it. 
 
 On the word or signal being given, he again lifts the shot, and moves to the next place, 
 and so on. 
 
 Note. — It will be observed that this exercise is more laborious than the others, from the 
 men always carrying a shot when they move. It will, therefore, only be enforced in the 
 military prisons, as a jjunishnicut for a prison oifence, and under particular circumstances ; 
 the latter to be noticed in the Governor's journal. 
 
 Explanation of Diagram and Exercise No. 5. 
 
 The shot may be placed as shown in Diagram No. 5 (at equal distances of three, four, 
 five, or six paces), and the prisoners being aiTanged so that each man has a shot innne- 
 diatcly in front of him, on a given word, " Pile Shot," each man lifts his shot, and turning 
 (outwards) about, moves at the regular quick time to the spot from which the man in rear 
 of him has removed his shot, where he halts, sets down his shot, and then turning (outwards) 
 about, moves again to his original place, when lie again picks up the shot in front of him. 
 
 Thus No. 1 takes his sliotVrom No. 1 (turning to tlie right about) to No. 2, and then 
 returns (turning to the left about) to take up the shot which No. IG took at the same time 
 from No. 16 to No. 1. 
 
 An odd file may be provided for, as shown by that portion of the Diagram, 16 to 17, 
 and 1 to 17. 
 
 Explanation of Diagram and Exercise No. 6. 
 
 The sliot may be placed as shown in Diagram No. 6, where the length of the ground on 
 which tlie exercise is to be performed is limited. 
 
 Tlie exercise will be perCorined as sluiwn in No. 5. Thus, while No. 1 is removing his 
 shot to No. 2, No. 21 will remove his shot from No. 21 to No. 22, and so on. 
 
 An odd file may be ]m)vided for in this exercise, as shown by that portion of the 
 Diagram, 21 to 22, and 21 lo 23. 
 
 * Three shots partly sunk in the ground, form a good tcmporarv bed for receiving the shot. 
 
 t Or tlie shot may be placed round the four sides of a square, or in a circle, if more convenient.
 
 REP0RT._PRISON DISCIPLINE 
 
 A 
 
 Sliot Exercise, N? 3 . 
 
 D 
 
 B 
 
 D 
 
 B ^ C 
 
 Warder. 
 
 * 
 
 Shot Exercise, N? 6. 
 
 T) 
 
 •8i;iK 
 
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 ■iliiS 
 
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 :N'?:2. 
 
 
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 N°:4.. 
 
 
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 SlioS 
 
 Wiiil 
 
 •STiiH 
 
 
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 ■63 id 
 
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 U>A ^ Ordered tote Printed 12!^ March, 1863. 
 
 D^--,- /r,,^ -^^^ f...«^rt»-
 
 Shot-txercise. N?l. 
 
 ^■]k 
 
 B-i 
 
 
 Shot Exercise, N? 4. 
 
 r 
 
 n? 
 
 Lg 
 
 L 
 
 Shot Exercise, N? 2. 
 
 (g"~ ^"" iir~ £~' 
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 Hfi Lb 
 
 Vf 
 
 
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 ^ Kg 
 
 Xm IB 
 
 -^ 
 
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 Shot Exercise, N? 5 . 
 
 ,.# 
 
 1^1 N^. 
 
 
 KEPOKT.-PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 Sliot "Exercise. N° 3. 
 
 Wardrr. 
 
 Shot Exercise, N? 6. 
 
 rg ---I --aL 
 
 ♦ 
 
 ■£tiiS 
 
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 ; Ii;:6. 
 
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 ■itftB « |!?! 
 
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 I 37. ) Orderea to he Printed 12* March, 18G3.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 479 
 
 Table, showing the Distance each Man must march in moving the Shot. 
 
 Appendix A. 
 
 Number 
 
 of Paces between 
 
 the Shot. 
 
 Number of 
 
 Shot moved in 
 
 a Minute. 
 
 Number of 
 
 Paces, per Hour, 
 
 marched 
 
 with a Shot. 
 
 Number of 
 Paces marched, 
 
 per Hour, 
 without a Shot. 
 
 Whole 
 
 Distance marched 
 
 in 
 
 the Hour. 
 
 3 
 
 6 
 
 1,080 
 
 1,080 
 
 2,160 
 
 4 
 
 6 
 
 1,440 
 
 1,440 
 
 2,880 
 
 5 
 
 4 
 
 1,200 
 
 1,200 
 
 2,400 
 
 6 
 
 4 
 
 1,440 
 
 1,440 
 
 2,880 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 1,500 
 
 1,500 
 
 3,000 
 
 6 
 
 5 
 
 1,800 
 
 1,800 
 
 3,600 
 
 Shot exercise may be made more severe, either by increasing the weight of the shot to 
 32 lbs., or by working, as in Exercise No. 4, the prisoners always having a shot in hand 
 
 when moving. 
 
 (37— App.) 
 
 3 04
 
 480 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendis. B. 
 
 Appendix B. 
 
 PAPER delivered in by Major William Fulford, E.A., 17 March 1863. 
 
 AMENDED TABLE of Dietaries, County Gaol, Staffoed, 1852. 
 
 Class 1. 
 Convicted Prisoners confined for any term not exceeding Seven Days. 
 
 Males. 
 Breakfast — Oatmeal gruel 
 Dinner - Bread 
 Supper - Oatmeal gruel 
 
 1 pint. 
 - 1 lb. 
 1 pint. 
 
 Females. 
 
 Oatmeal gruel - 
 
 Bread 
 
 Oatmeal gniel - 
 
 1 pint. 
 
 - 1 lb. 
 
 - 1 pint. 
 
 Class 2. 
 
 Convicted Prisoners for any term exceeding Seven Days, and not exceeding One 
 
 Calendar Month. 
 
 Males. 
 
 Breakfast — Oatmeal gruel - - 1 pint. 
 
 Bread - - - 6 oz. 
 
 Dinner - Bread - - - 12 oz. 
 
 Supper - Oatmeal gruel - - 1 pint. 
 
 Bread - - - 6 oz. 
 
 Oatmeal gruel - 
 
 Bread 
 
 Bread 
 
 Oatmeal gruel 
 
 Bread 
 
 Females. 
 
 1 pint. 
 6 oz. 
 6 oz. 
 1 pint. 
 6 oz. 
 
 Prisoners of this class employed at hard labour to have, in addition, 1 pint of soup 
 per week. 
 
 Class 3. 
 
 Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding One Calendar 
 Month, but not more than Three Calendar Months; and Convicted Prisoners not 
 employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding One Calendar Month, but not more than 
 Six Calendar Months. 
 
 
 Males. 
 
 
 Females. 
 
 
 Breakfast- 
 
 —Oatmeal gruel - 
 
 - 1 pint. 
 
 Oatmeal gruel - - - 
 
 - 1 pint. 
 
 
 Bread 
 
 - 6 oz. 
 
 Bread - . _ - 
 
 - 6 oz. 
 
 
 
 Monday and Friday. 
 
 
 Dinner - 
 
 Soup - . - 
 
 - 1 pint. 
 
 Soup - _ _ - 
 
 1 pint. 
 
 
 Bread 
 
 - 8 oz. 
 
 Bread - _ - - 
 
 - 6 oz. 
 
 
 
 Sunday and Thursday. 
 
 
 >} 
 
 Cooked meat, withoutl „ 
 
 , r O OZ, 
 
 bone - - -J 
 
 Cooked meat, without bone 
 
 - 3 oz. 
 
 
 Bread 
 
 - 8 oz. 
 
 Bread _ _ - - 
 
 - 6 oz. 
 
 
 Potatoes - 
 
 - ^Ib. 
 
 Potatoes - - - - 
 
 - ilb. 
 
 
 Tuesday, Wednesday, and Saturday. 
 
 
 4, 
 
 Bread 
 
 - 8 oz. 1 Bread . . - - 
 
 - 6 oz. 
 
 
 Potatoes - 
 
 - 1 lb. Potatoes - - - - 
 
 - 1 lb. 
 
 Supper - 
 
 Same as breakfast 
 
 Same as breakfast. 
 
 
 Class 4. 
 
 Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding Three Calendar 
 Months, but not mure than Four Calendar Months ; and Convicted Prisoners not 
 employed at Hard Laliour, for terms exceeding Six Calendar Months. 
 
 
 Males. 
 
 
 Females. 
 
 
 Breakfast- 
 
 —Oatmeal ttrucl 
 
 - 1 pint. 
 
 Oatmeal gruel - - - 
 
 - 1 pint 
 
 
 Bread ' - 
 
 - 8 oz. 
 
 Bread - . _ - 
 
 - 6 oz. 
 
 
 Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. 
 
 
 Dinner - 
 
 Cooked meat, 
 bone 
 
 without"! ,, 
 
 ■ .5 oz. 
 
 Cooked meat, without bone 
 
 - 3 oz. 
 
 
 Potatoes - 
 
 - i 11). 
 
 Potatoes - - - - 
 
 - Ub. 
 
 
 Bread 
 
 - 8 oz. 
 
 Bread - _ . - 
 
 - G oz. 
 
 
 
 Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. 
 
 
 » 
 
 Soup 
 
 - 1 pint. 
 
 Soup - - - . 
 
 - 1 pint. 
 
 
 Bread 
 
 - 8 oz. ' 
 
 Bread - - - - 
 
 6 oz. 
 
 Supper - 
 
 Same as breakfast. 
 
 Same as breakfast. 

 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 481 
 
 Amended Table of Dietakies, Sec. — continued. 
 
 Aj)pendix B. 
 
 Class 5. 
 
 Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding Four Calendar 
 
 Months. 
 
 Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. 
 
 Males. 
 
 Breakfast — Oatmeal gruel - - 1 pint. 
 
 Bread - - - 8 oz. 
 
 Dinner - Cooked meat, without! . 
 
 bone 
 Potatoes - 
 Bread 
 
 oz. 
 
 - 1 lb. 
 
 - 6 oz. 
 
 Females. 
 Oatmeal gruel - - . 
 Bread - - _ _ 
 
 Cooked meat, without bone 
 
 Potatoes - . . . 
 Bread - . . . 
 
 1 pint, 
 of flaked 
 
 Breakfast — Cocoa 
 
 (Made of | oz. _ 
 
 cocoa, or cocoa nibs, sweet- 
 ened with f oz. of molasses 
 or sugar.) 
 
 Bread - - - 8 oz. 
 
 Sou[) - - - 1 pint. 
 
 Potatoes - - - 1 lb. 
 
 Bread - - - 6 oz. 
 
 Oatmeal gruel - - 1 pint. 
 
 Bread - - - 8 oz. 
 
 Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. 
 
 Cocoa - - - - _ 
 (Made of J oz. of flaked cocoa, 
 nibs, sweetened with j oz. of 
 or sugar.) 
 
 Dinner - 
 
 Supper - 
 
 Bread 
 
 Souj) 
 
 Potatoes 
 
 Bread 
 
 Oatmeal gruel 
 
 Bread 
 
 1 pint. 
 6 oz. 
 
 3 oz. 
 
 ilb. 
 6 oz. 
 
 1 pint, 
 or cocoa 
 molasses 
 
 6 oz. 
 1 puit. 
 Ub. 
 6 oz. 
 1 pint. 
 6 oz. 
 
 Class 6. 
 Prisoners sentenced by Court to Solitary Confinement. 
 
 Males. 
 The ordinary diet of their respective classes. 
 
 Females. 
 The ordinary diet of their respective classes. 
 
 Class 7. 
 
 Prisoners for Examination before Trial, and Misdemeanants of the First Division, who do 
 
 not maintain themselves. 
 
 Males. 
 The same as Class 4. 
 
 Females. 
 The same as Class 4. 
 
 Males. 
 The same as Class 4. 
 
 Class 8. 
 Destitute Debtors. 
 
 Females. 
 The same as Class 4. 
 
 Class 9. 
 
 Prisoners under Punishment for Prison Offences, for terms not exceeding Three Days : — 
 
 1 lb. of bread per diem. 
 
 Prisoners in Close Confinement for Prison Offences, under the Provision of the 42d Section 
 
 Breakfast — Gruel 
 
 Bread 
 
 Dinner - Bread 
 
 Supper - Gruel 
 
 Bread 
 
 Males. 
 
 of the Gaol Act. 
 
 1 pint. 
 
 8 oz. 
 
 Gruel 
 Bread 
 
 8 oz. 
 
 Bread 
 
 1 pint. 
 8 oz. 
 
 Gruel 
 Bread 
 
 Females. 
 
 - 1 pint. 
 
 - 6 oz. 
 
 - 6 oz. 
 
 - 1 pint. 
 
 - 6 oz. 
 
 Note. — The soup to contain, per pint, 3 oz. of cooked meat without bone (for 4th and 
 5th Classes), 3 oz. of potatoes, 1 oz. of barley, rice, or oatmeal, and 1 oz. of onions or 
 leeks, with pepper and salt. The gruel to contain 1 ^ oz. of oatmeal per pint. The gruel, 
 on alternate days, to be sweetened with f oz. of molasses or sugar, and seasoned with salt. 
 In seasons when the potato crop has failed, 4 oz. of split peas made into a pudding may be 
 occasionally substituted ; but the change must not be made more than twice in each week. 
 Boys under 14 years of age to be placed on the sumo diet as females. 
 
 (37— App.) 
 
 3P
 
 482 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix C. 
 
 PAPERS delivered in by William Musson, Esq., 17 March 1863. 
 
 Appendix C. Notice to Prisoners under Sentence of Hard Labour. 
 
 Hard labour for nine hours per diem will be enforced upon every prisoner sentenced 
 to hard labour, and every prisoner so sentenced may be required to perform hard labour 
 at the crank during the entire period of his sentence. 
 
 But in order to encourage habits of willing and steady industry, and of cheerful obedi- 
 ence, hard labour is so arranged that every prisoner has it in his own power, by his 
 industry and uniform good conduct to reduce the length of the period for which he will be 
 required to labour at the crank. 
 
 At the commencement, hard labour at the crank will be enforced for eight hours per 
 diem, with one hour of other hard labour of a different description. The duration of this 
 period is set forth in the scale below. 
 
 Afterwards the crank labour will not l)e enforced for so many hours, the remaining 
 hours beino- occupied with hard labour of a different description. The duration of these 
 periods Is also set forth in the scale below. 
 
 Prisoners are to remember that the scale of crank labour as laid down in this notice, is 
 applicable to those prisoners only who exhibit willing industry and uniform good conduct. 
 And every prisoner misconducting himself will be liable to be kept to crank labour for the 
 whole term of his sentence. 
 
 Any prisoner who may have worked through the periods of crank labour, will by mis- 
 conduct in any subsequent stage of his imprisonment, render himself liable to be sent back 
 again to crank labour. 
 
 Scale of Ceank Labour to be enforced during a Sentence of Imprisonment with 
 
 Hard Labour. 
 
 Periods of Crank Labour for a First Commitment. 
 
 SENTENCE. 
 
 8 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 7 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 6 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 5 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 Total 
 in Weeks. 
 
 Total 
 in Days. 
 
 Total 
 in Hours. 
 
 12 Months and upwards 
 
 4 weeks - 
 
 4 weeks - 
 
 4 weeks - 
 
 5 weeks - 
 
 17 
 
 102 
 
 054 
 
 Pcrlodi 
 
 3 of Crank Labour for a Second Com 
 
 mitment. 
 
 
 
 SENTENCE. 
 
 8 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 7 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 G Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 5 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 Total 
 in Weeks. 
 
 Total 
 in Days. 
 
 Total 
 in Hoars. 
 
 12_Month8 and upwards - 
 
 4 weeks - 
 
 4 weeks - 
 
 7 weeks - 
 
 4 weeks. 
 
 19 
 
 114 
 
 732
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 483 
 
 Crank Labour. — Number of Cranks, 33. 
 
 1,800 Revolutions per Hour ; 14,400 per Day for Adults. 
 
 Period of Crank Labour for a First Commitment. 
 
 Appendix C. 
 
 SENTENCE. 
 
 8 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 7 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 6 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 6 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 Total 
 in Weeks. 
 
 Total 
 in Days. 
 
 Total 
 in Hours. 
 
 21 days - 
 
 14 days - 
 
 - 
 
 . 
 
 . 
 
 2 
 
 12 
 
 96 
 
 I month - 
 
 3 weeks 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 3 
 
 18 
 
 144 
 
 6 weeks - 
 
 2 „ 
 
 1 week - 
 
 1 week - 
 
 - 
 
 4 
 
 24 
 
 174 
 
 2 months 
 
 
 2 weeks - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 4 
 
 24 
 
 180 
 
 3 „ 
 
 o 
 
 J) 1 
 
 1 „ 
 
 2 weeks • 
 
 - 
 
 5 
 
 30 
 
 210 
 
 4 „ 
 
 o 
 
 3 „ 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 5 
 
 80 
 
 222 
 
 5 „ 
 
 •^ J) 
 
 3 „ 
 
 1 week - 
 
 - 
 
 6 
 
 36 
 
 258 
 
 6 „ 
 
 2 „ 
 
 3 „ 
 
 2 weeks - 
 
 - 
 
 7 
 
 42 
 
 294 
 
 7 ,, 
 
 o 
 
 3 „ 
 
 3 „ - 
 
 - 
 
 8 
 
 48 
 
 330 
 
 8 „ 
 
 2 „ 
 
 3 „ 
 
 3 , - 
 
 1 week - 
 
 9 
 
 54 
 
 360 
 
 9 ,, 
 
 O 
 
 3 „ 
 
 3 „ - 
 
 2 „ - 
 
 10 
 
 60 
 
 390 
 
 10 „ 
 
 2 „ 
 
 3 ,, 
 
 3 „ - 
 
 3 „ - 
 
 11 
 
 66 
 
 420 
 
 11 „ 
 
 2 „ 
 
 3 „ 
 
 3 „ - 
 
 4 „ - 
 
 12 
 
 72 
 
 450 
 
 12 
 
 o 
 
 3 „ 
 
 3 „ - 
 
 5 „ - 
 
 13 
 
 78 
 
 480 
 
 1,500 Revolutions per Hour ; 12,000 per Day for Juveniles. 
 
 Period of Crank Labour for a Second Commitment 
 
 SENTENCE. 
 
 8 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 7 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 6 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 5 Hours 
 per Diem. 
 
 Total 
 in Weeks. 
 
 Total 
 in Days. 
 
 Total 
 in Hours. 
 
 21 days - 
 
 18 days - 
 
 . 
 
 . 
 
 _ « 
 
 3 
 
 18 
 
 144 
 
 1 month - 
 
 3 weeks 
 
 1 week - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 4 
 
 24 
 
 186 
 
 6 weeks - 
 
 3 „ 
 
 2 weeks - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 5 
 
 30 
 
 228 
 
 2 months 
 
 4 „ 
 
 3 „ - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 7 
 
 42 
 
 318 
 
 3 „ 
 
 4 „ 
 
 4 ., - 
 
 1 week - 
 
 - 
 
 
 
 54 
 
 396 
 
 4 „ 
 
 4 „ 
 
 4 „ 
 
 2 weeks - 
 
 - 
 
 10 
 
 60 
 
 432 
 
 5 „ 
 
 4 „ 
 
 4 » 
 
 4 „ - 
 
 " 
 
 12 
 
 72 
 
 504 
 
 6 „ 
 
 4 „ 
 
 4 ,. 
 
 5 „ - 
 
 - 
 
 13 
 
 78 
 
 540 
 
 7 „ 
 
 4 „ 
 
 4 „ 
 
 G „ - 
 
 - 
 
 14 
 
 84 
 
 576 
 
 8 „ 
 
 4 „ 
 
 4 „ 
 
 7 „ - 
 
 - 
 
 15 
 
 90 
 
 612 
 
 9 » 
 
 4 ,, 
 
 4 ,. 
 
 7 „ - 
 
 1 week - 
 
 16 
 
 96 
 
 642 
 
 10 „ 
 
 4 ,, 
 
 4 „ - 
 
 7 ,, • 
 
 2 weeks - 
 
 17 
 
 102 
 
 672 
 
 11 ,. 
 
 4 „ 
 
 4 „ 
 
 7 .. ' 
 
 3 „ - 
 
 18 
 
 108 
 
 702 
 
 12 „ 
 
 4 „ 
 
 4 „ - 
 
 7 „ • 
 
 4 » - 
 
 19 
 
 114 
 
 732 
 
 (37— App.) 
 
 3p2
 
 484 
 
 APPE]VDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix D. 
 
 Appendix D. Return of the Number of Criminal Prisoners committed to the County Gaol and 
 — — House of Correction at Reading, during the following Years, excluding Debtors but 
 
 not Re-examinations ; viz. 
 
 1853. 
 
 1854. 
 
 1855. 
 
 1856. 
 
 1857. 
 
 1858. 
 
 1859. 
 
 1860. 
 
 1861. 
 
 1862. 
 
 711 
 
 773 
 
 677 
 
 645 
 
 705 
 
 735 
 
 597 
 
 575 
 
 702 
 
 760 
 
 Return of the Number of Criminal Prisoners committed to the County Gaol and 
 House of Correction at Reading, who have been previously committed. 
 
 1853. 
 
 1854. 
 223 
 
 1855. 
 
 1856. 
 
 1857. 
 
 1858. 
 
 1859. 
 
 1860. 
 
 1861. 
 
 1862. 
 
 205 
 
 196 
 
 1G6 
 
 220 
 
 181 
 
 153 
 
 148 
 
 155 
 
 173 
 
 Return of the Number of Vagrants committed to the House of Correction at Reading 
 
 during the following Years; viz. 
 
 1853. 
 
 1854. 
 
 1855. 
 
 1856. 
 
 1857. 
 
 1858. 
 
 1859. 
 
 1860. 
 
 1861. 
 
 1862. 
 
 113 
 
 87 
 
 52 
 
 72 
 
 69 
 
 99 
 
 87 
 
 80 
 
 96 
 
 101 
 
 Return of the Number of Cases, and also the Number of County Prisoners prosecuted 
 at Assizes and Sessions during the following Years. 
 
 Year ending Michaelmas 1859 
 I860 
 1861 
 1S62 
 
 No. of Cases. 
 
 88 
 64 
 90 
 79 
 
 In Four ^ ears - - Total - 
 Duiinn- Four Years, 1845 — 1848, Prosecutions were 655. 
 
 No. of Prisoners- 
 
 99 
 
 75 
 
 107 
 
 107 
 
 368 
 
 Employment of Prisoners. 
 
 Sweeping cells, makintr beds, &c. - - - - - 
 
 Grinding corn, pumping water, mat-making, exercise, &c. &c. 
 Breakfast and self-instruction in cells - . - - 
 
 Chapel 
 
 Female school class ------- 
 
 >Valk for male prisoners ------ 
 
 School for male prisoners ------ 
 
 Dinner and self-instruction in cells - - . - 
 
 Work, school, and exercise ------ 
 
 Work, cleaning, school, and exercise - . - - 
 Work, cleaning, and school ------ 
 
 Work, cleaning, and exercise - - . - - 
 
 Work and cleaning ------- 
 
 Supper and self-instruction in cells . - - - 
 
 F'reparing for bed ------- 
 
 In bed --------- 
 
 Summary. 
 
 
 From 
 
 6 
 
 A.M. 
 
 6 
 
 15 „ 
 
 7 
 
 45 „ 
 
 9 
 
 „ 
 
 10 
 
 » 
 
 10 
 
 „ 
 
 11 
 
 " „ 
 
 11 
 
 45 „ 
 
 1 
 
 r. M. 
 
 2 
 
 ,. 
 
 3 
 
 <> „ 
 
 4 
 
 ,. 
 
 5 
 
 •> » 
 
 5 
 
 45 „ 
 
 7 
 
 45 „ 
 
 8 
 
 " ,. 
 
 To 
 
 () 15 A. 
 
 7 30 „ 
 9 ,. 
 0,] 
 
 10 45 
 
 11 
 11 45 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 P. M. 
 
 
 
 
 40 
 45 
 
 
 
 Work 
 Chapel - 
 Exercise 
 School - 
 
 5 hours. 
 1 .. 
 
 Self-instruction in cells 
 
 Meals - 
 
 Bed - - - 
 
 . 
 
 4 hours 
 
 - 
 
 1 
 
 » 
 
 - 
 
 10 
 
 )> 
 
 24
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 485 
 
 Appendix D. 
 
 Return of the Number of Prisoners in Reading and Abingdon Gaols, omittinjr 
 Debtors and Persons under Examination, for the last Ten Years; viz., 1853 to 1862, 
 inclusive. 
 
 Prisons. 
 
 issa. 
 
 1854. 
 
 1855. 
 
 1856. 
 
 1857. 
 
 1858. 
 
 1859. 
 
 1860. 
 
 1861. 
 
 1862. 
 
 Reading . . - 
 Abingdon - - - 
 
 704 
 295 
 
 753 
 346 
 
 661 
 254 
 
 635 
 221 
 
 676 
 244 
 
 716 
 167 
 
 577 
 126 
 
 566 
 127 
 
 694 
 150 
 
 747 
 16* 
 
 Total Prisons - - 
 
 999 
 
 1,098 
 
 915 
 
 856 
 
 920 
 
 882 
 
 703 
 
 693 
 
 844 
 
 911 
 
 Return of Net Charge on County Rates during the same Period. 
 
 Prisons. 
 
 1853. 
 
 1854. 
 
 1855. 
 
 1856. 
 
 1857. 
 
 1858. 
 
 1859. 
 
 1860. 
 
 1801. 
 
 1862. 
 
 
 £. 
 
 £. 
 
 £. 
 
 £. 
 
 £. 
 
 £. 
 
 £. 
 
 £. 
 
 £. 
 
 £. 
 
 Reading ... 
 
 2,036 
 
 1,986 
 
 1,761 
 
 1,687 
 
 1,617 
 
 1,577 
 
 1,701 
 
 1,433 
 
 1,273 
 
 1,380 
 
 Abingdon - 
 
 831 
 
 908 
 
 915 
 
 765 
 
 534 
 
 544 
 
 439 
 
 437 
 
 557 
 
 524 
 
 Total Cost - - £. 
 
 2,867 
 
 2,984 
 
 2,676 
 
 2,452 
 
 2,151 
 
 2,121 
 
 2,140 
 
 1,870 
 
 1,830 
 
 1,904 
 
 DIETARIES.— County Gaol, Reading, Berks. 
 
 Class No. 1. 
 Conricted Prisoners confined for any term not exceeding Seven Dajs. 
 
 Breakfast and Supper • 
 Dinner 
 
 Male. 
 
 1 pint of oatmeal gruel - 
 1 lb. of bread 
 
 (u.oidf'V) 
 
 Female. 
 
 1 pint of oatmeal gruel. 
 1 lb. of bread. 
 
 (U. Ojc/.A) 
 
 Class No. 2. 
 Convicted Prisoners for any term exceeding Seven Days, and not exceeding Twenty-one Days. 
 
 Breakfast and Supper 
 Dinner . . - 
 
 Male. 
 
 Female. 
 1 pint of oatmeal gruel, 6 02. of 
 
 j"l pint of oatmeal gruel, 6 oz. of 
 
 l^ bread. I 
 
 ri2 oz. of bread - - - - | 6 oz. of bread. 
 
 I 1 pint soup per week, if at hard | 1 pint soup per week, if at hard 
 
 ' labour. labour. 
 
 (Is. 6jcf.) 
 
 (\s.H.I.) 
 
 (37.— Apr.) 
 
 3 p3
 
 486 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix D. 
 
 Dietaries. — County Gaol, Reading, Berks — coutmued. 
 
 Class No. 3. 
 
 Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding Twenty-one Days, but not more 
 than Six Weeks ; and Convicted Prisoners not employed at Hard Labour, for terms exceeding 
 Twenty-one Days, but not more than Four Months. 
 
 Breakfast and Supper • 
 Dinner : 
 
 Sunday - 
 
 Thursday 
 
 Tuesday 
 
 Saturday 
 
 Monday 
 
 Wednesday 
 
 Friday - 
 
 Male. 
 1 pint of oatmeal gruel, 6 oz. of bread 
 
 } 1 pint of soup, 8 oz. of bread 
 
 T 3 oz. cooked meat, without bone, 
 f 8 oz. bread, and h lb. potatoes. 
 
 8oz. of bread, lib. of potatoes 
 (1». 8irf.) 
 
 Female. 
 1 pint of oatmeal gruel, 6 oz. of bread. 
 
 1 pint of soup, G oz. of bread. 
 
 3 oz. cooked meat, without bone, 
 6 oz. bread, and J lb. potatoes. 
 
 6 oz. of bread, 1 lb. of potatoes. 
 
 (Is. lid.) 
 
 Class No. 4. 
 
 Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding Six Weeks, but not more than 
 Four Months, and Convicted Prisoners not employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding Four 
 Months. No. 6, Prisoners sentenced by Court to Solitary Confinement. No. 7, Prisonersfor 
 Examination before Trial, and Misdemeanants of the first division, who do not maintain them- 
 selves. No. 8, Destitute. Debtors. 
 
 Breakfast and Supper ■ 
 Dinner; 
 
 Sunday - 
 
 Thursday 
 
 Tuesday 
 
 Saturday 
 
 Monday 
 
 Wednesday 
 
 Friday - 
 
 Male. 
 1 pint of oatmeal gruel, 8 oz. of bread 
 
 3 oz. of cooked meat, without bone 
 I ^ lb. of potatoes, and 8 oz. of bread 
 
 I 1 pint of soup, 8 oz. of bread 
 (2 s. 2Jrf.) 
 
 Female. 
 1 pint of oatmeal gruel, 6 oz. of bread. 
 
 3 oz. of cooked meat, without boiie. 
 J lb. of potatoes and 6 oz. of bread. 
 
 1 pint of soup, G oz. of bread. 
 (Is. nd.) 
 
 Class No. 5. 
 
 Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding Four Months. 
 
 Sunday 
 
 Tuesday - 
 
 Thursday - 
 
 Saturday - 
 
 Monday 
 
 Wednesday 
 
 Friday 
 
 Male. 
 
 Breakfast. — 1 pint of oatmeal gruel, 
 [ 8 oz. of bread. 
 
 [ Dinner. — 4 oz. cooked meat, without 
 bone, 1 lb. potatoes, G oz. bread. 
 
 i Breakfast. — 1 pint of oatmeal gruel, 
 8 oz. of bread. 
 Dinner. — 1 pint soup, I lb. potatoes, 
 G oz, breiid. 
 Supper, the week, 1 pint gruel, 8 oz. 
 bread. 
 
 (2s. 5rf.) 
 
 Female. 
 
 Breakfast. — 1 pint of oatmeal gruel, 
 
 6 oz. of bread. 
 Dinner. — 3oz. cooked meat, without 
 
 bone, J lb. potatoes, 6 (iz. bread. 
 
 Breakfast. — 1 pint of oatmeal gruel, 
 
 6 oz. of bread. 
 Dinner. — 1 pint soup, ^ lb. potatoes, 
 
 Goz. bread. 
 Supper, the week, 1 pint gniel, 6oz. 
 
 bread. 
 
 (Is. l\^d.) 
 
 Class No. 9. 
 Prisoners in Close Confinement for Prison Offences, under the provision of the 42d section Gaol Act. 
 
 Breakfast and Supper - 
 Dinner - - - 
 
 Not exceeding 3 days 
 
 Male. 
 
 1 pint of gruel, 8 oz. of bread 
 8 oz. of bread - - - 
 1 lb. of bread per d.iy - 
 
 Female. 
 
 1 pint of gruel, oz. of bread, 
 
 6 iiz. of bread. 
 
 1 lb. of bread per day. 
 
 Note. — ^Thesoup to contain, per pint, 3 ounces of cooked meat, without bone, 3 ounces of potatoes, 
 one ounce of barley, rice, or oatmeal, and 1 ounce of onions or leeks, with pepper and salt. The 
 gruel to contain 2 ounces of oatmeal per pint, and seasoned with salt. In seasons when the potato 
 crop has failed, 4 ounces of split peas made info a pudding may be occasionally substituted, but the 
 change must not be made more than twice in each week. Boys under 14 years of age to be placed 
 on the same diet as females.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE 0\ PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 487 
 
 Easter Sessions, 1863. 
 
 ABSTRACT of Expenditure for County Gaol at Reading, for the Quarter from 20th December 1862 
 
 to 20tli March 1863 inclusive, 91 days. 
 
 Charges oe 
 
 Establishment. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Printing and Advertisements, Books, 
 
 Salaries of Officers. 
 
 
 Rations. 
 
 
 
 Stationery, Calendars, &c. 
 
 (!•) 
 
 
 (2.) 
 
 
 
 (3.) 
 
 
 £. 5. 
 
 d. 
 
 
 £. s. 
 
 d. 
 
 
 £. s. d. 
 
 Governor - - - 
 
 7.T - 
 
 - 
 
 1,780 lbs. of bread, at 4 J rf.l/ 
 
 
 
 Advertisements 
 
 2 5- 
 
 Chaplain _ . - 
 
 62 10 
 
 - 
 
 per 4 lb. loaf 
 
 8 18 
 
 - 
 
 Sessions, Calendars, and 
 
 
 Surgeon .- - - - 
 
 25 - 
 
 — 
 
 7 ^ bushels of flour, at 
 
 
 
 Quarterly Returns 
 
 9 - - 
 
 Deputy GoTernor 
 
 25 - 
 
 — 
 
 7 5. 2rf. 
 
 2 13 
 
 9 
 
 Assize Calendars 
 
 8 - - 
 
 Matron . - - - 
 
 9 15 
 
 - 
 
 1,078 lbs. of meat, at C f/. - 
 
 41 19 
 
 - 
 
 Printing 
 
 1 14 6 
 
 Storekeeper _ - . 
 
 15 5 
 
 (5 
 
 1 40 lbs. of bacon, at G | rf. - 
 
 3 18 
 
 9 
 
 Books of Instruction 
 
 - 6 - 
 
 2 first-class Warders, at 
 
 
 
 56 lbs. of coffee, at Is. id. - 
 
 3 14 
 
 8 
 
 Stationery - . - 
 Account Books 
 
 1 6 9 
 
 12/. 10 o. each 
 
 25 - 
 
 - 
 
 56 lbs. of tea, at 25. 11 d. - 
 
 8 3 
 
 4 
 
 3 9- 
 
 2 Second Class Warders, at 
 
 
 
 129 lbs. butter, at 16rf. and 
 
 
 
 Almanacks . - - 
 
 - 1 6 
 
 10?. each - - - 
 
 20 - 
 
 - 
 
 lid. - 
 
 8 18 
 
 8^ 
 
 Prison Regulations - 
 
 - 6 - 
 
 5 Third Class Warders, at 
 
 
 
 2 cwt. sugar, at 40 5. - 
 
 4 - 
 
 - 
 
 
 
 7/. lOs. each 
 
 37 10 
 
 - 
 
 450 qts. of milk, at 3 c/. 
 
 5 12 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 2 Schoolmasters, at 7/. 10 s, 
 
 
 
 1 1 gal. vinegar, at 1 «. 4 d. 
 
 _ 2 
 
 - 
 
 
 
 each - - . . 
 
 15 - 
 
 - 
 
 9 lbs. of mustard, at lOrf. - 
 
 - 7 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 Porter - - - - 
 
 10 - 
 
 - 
 
 9 lbs. of pepper, at 1 5. 1 d. 
 
 - 9 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 Cook - - - . 
 
 7 10 
 
 - 
 
 1 cwt. 1 qr. 16J lbs. cheese, 
 
 
 
 
 
 Assistant Matron 
 
 6 o 
 
 - 
 
 at 58 s. per cwt. - 
 
 4 1 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 Engineer - - - - 
 
 13 - 
 
 - 
 
 32 f bushels potatoes, at 2 s. 
 
 3 5 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 Clerk - - - . 
 
 7 10 
 
 — 
 
 1 owl. salt, axis. 8 d. 
 
 - 1 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 Total - - - £. 
 
 354 5 
 
 6 
 
 
 Pensions to Superannuated 
 
 
 
 
 Officers. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 £ s. d. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Chaplain - - 41 13 4 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Matron - - 4 10 - 
 
 
 
 
 : 
 
 
 
 ■ 
 
 2 Warders, at 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 4/. 10s. each 9 - - 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 Warder - - 6 5 - 
 
 
 
 Total - - - £. 
 
 
 
 Total - - - £. 
 
 
 Total - - 61 8 4 
 
 96 6 
 
 4J 
 
 26 8 9 
 
 Maintenance of Prisoners. 
 
 Diet. 
 
 
 
 
 Clothing and Bedd 
 
 ng- 
 
 
 Fuel, Gas, OU, &c. 
 
 (4.) 
 
 
 
 
 (5.) 
 
 
 
 (6.) 
 
 
 £. 
 
 a. 
 
 rf. 
 
 
 £. s. 
 
 rf. 
 
 
 £. 5. rf. 
 
 16,695 lbs. 6 oz. of bread, at 
 
 
 
 
 Clothing . . - 
 
 25 S 
 
 n 
 
 20 tons of coal, at 16 s. 3 rf. 
 
 16 5 - 
 
 4 3rt. If. per 4 lb. loaf - 
 
 83 
 
 8 
 
 10 
 
 Beddinir ... 
 
 10 10 
 
 
 
 175,500 feet of gas, at 
 
 
 2,535 lbs. of meat, at 4 J r/. 
 
 47 
 
 10 
 
 7,^ 
 
 Leather, hemp, (fcc. 
 
 9 17 
 
 - 
 
 45. 3rf. per 1,000 
 
 37 5 11 
 
 30 cwt. oatmeal, at 18 5. 6d. 
 
 27 
 
 15 
 
 
 btraw for beds 
 
 - 12 
 
 - 
 
 30 chald. coke, at 10 s. 6rf. 
 
 15 15 - 
 
 1 cwt. 3 qrs. rice, at 14 j. - 
 
 1 
 
 4 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 400 bundles of hoop chips, 
 
 
 138 bushels potatoes, at 2 5. 
 
 13 
 
 IG 
 
 - 
 
 
 
 
 at 6s. 8rf. per 100 
 
 1 6 8 
 
 9 lbs. of pepper, at 1 .s. 1 rf. - 
 
 - 
 
 9 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 
 4 quarts of oil 
 
 - 5 3 
 
 2 cwt. of salt, at 1 s. 8 rf. - 
 
 - 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 
 4 quarts of naphtha 
 
 - 8 - 
 
 3^ bushels of leeks - 
 
 — 
 
 7 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Matches - - . 
 6 lbs. of candles, at 6 rf. - 
 
 - 1 6 
 
 - 3 - 
 
 For Sick. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 83 lbs. of meat, at 4 rf. 
 
 1 
 
 7 
 
 S 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 19 qts. 1 pt. of milk, at 3 rf. 
 
 _ 
 
 4 
 
 lOJ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 lb. of tea, at 2 5. 11 rf. 
 
 _ 
 
 t> 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 6 J lbs. butter, at 16 rf. and 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 17 rf. - - 
 
 _ 
 
 7 
 
 8i 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Wine, spirits, and porter - 
 
 2 
 
 12 
 
 7h 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Eggs .... 
 
 - 
 
 
 
 r, 
 
 Total - - - £. 
 
 
 
 Total - - - £. 
 
 
 Total - - - £. 
 
 179 
 
 13 
 
 10 
 
 46 7 
 
 9i 
 
 71 10 4 
 
 (37— AppO 
 
 3 p4
 
 488 
 
 APPENDIX TO RBPORT FROM THE 
 
 Abstract of Expenditure for County Gaol at Reading, &c. — continued. 
 
 Conveyance of Prisoners. 
 
 Kej)airs and Improvements. 
 
 
 Stores and Incidentals. 
 
 (7.) 
 
 (8.) 
 
 
 
 
 (9.) 
 
 
 
 £. s. d. 
 
 
 £. 
 
 i. 
 
 d. 
 
 
 £. s. d. 
 
 Conveying prisoners to 
 
 
 Phimber, glazier, and 
 
 
 
 
 Brooms and brushes 
 
 2 17 3 
 
 Epiphany Sessions at 
 
 
 painter ... 
 
 11 
 
 IG 
 
 3 
 
 House cloths ... 
 
 1 2 11 
 
 Reading ... 
 
 - 17 - 
 
 Locksmith and ironfoun- 
 
 
 
 
 Sweeping chimneys 
 
 1 6 - 
 
 Conveying prisoners to 
 
 
 der . . . - 
 
 8 
 
 10 
 
 9 
 
 laxes - . . - 
 
 - 17 
 
 Lent Assizes at Reading 
 
 2 2 — 
 
 Brazier and tinman 
 
 - 
 
 5 
 
 tl 
 
 Crockery ware 
 
 - 12 6 
 
 Conveying four prisoners 
 
 
 Materials ... 
 
 4 
 
 - 
 
 2J 
 
 Sundries ... 
 
 1 18 11 
 
 to Reformatory School 
 
 
 Labour .... 
 
 o 
 
 5 
 
 9 
 
 Nurses . - - - 
 
 4 14 6 
 
 »t Warminster 
 
 4 13 9 
 
 Slater - - . - 
 
 - 
 
 9 
 
 6 
 
 Postage and receipt 
 
 
 
 
 Carpenter ... 
 
 4 
 
 10 
 
 1 
 
 stamps ... 
 
 1 2 6 
 
 
 
 Bricklayer - . - 
 
 1 
 
 11 
 
 6 
 
 Travelling expenses 
 Shaving and hair cutting 
 Soda .... 
 Mat-making materials 
 Brown paper 
 Letters and parcels - 
 Cash given to prisoners 
 on their discharge 
 
 - 13 3 
 
 5 - - 
 
 - 6 6 
 48 2 9 
 
 1 7 6 
 
 - 1 11 
 
 6 6 3 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Officers' uniform great 
 
 
 
 
 Total - - - f . 
 
 
 
 
 coats ... 
 Tin pails ... 
 Manure and seeds for 
 
 garden ... 
 Funeral expenses . 
 
 Total - - - £. 
 
 25 19 - 
 1 6 a 
 
 4 4 7 
 1 4 - 
 
 Total - - - £. 
 
 7 12 9 
 
 33 
 
 9 
 
 H 
 
 109 4 4 
 
 (10.) 
 
 Total Expenditure during the Quarter for County and Borough prisoners 
 
 , as shown 
 
 b.y 
 
 £. 
 
 s. 
 
 d. 
 
 £. 
 
 s. 
 
 d. 
 
 the above nine columns -.-..... 
 
 - 
 
 
 - 
 
 
 - 
 
 924 
 
 19 
 
 2J 
 
 Deduct Receipts and Credits applicable to County Rates : 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 By Governor for Deserters . - - 
 
 . 
 
 - 
 
 3 
 
 5 
 
 _ 
 
 
 
 
 By Governor for Soldiers .... 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 By Governor for Productive Labour 
 
 - 
 
 
 43 
 
 8 
 
 H 
 
 
 
 
 By Governor for old Iron . . - - 
 
 • 
 
 - 
 
 _ 
 
 8 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 Borough of Reading for Prisoners - - 1,916 days, at 1 s, 9^d. 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 171 
 
 12 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 
 Borough of New Windsor for Prisoners . 1,81 1 days, at 1 s. 9^ d. 
 
 - 
 
 . 
 
 162 
 
 4 
 
 8^ 
 
 
 
 
 Borough of Newbury for Prisoners - - 733 days, at 1 s. 9,J d. 
 
 . 
 
 . 
 
 65 
 
 13 
 
 Sh 
 
 
 
 
 Borougli of Abingdon for Prisoners - . 23 davs, at 1 s. 9J d. 
 
 . 
 
 . 
 
 2 
 
 1 
 
 2h 
 
 
 
 
 Government for Removal of Convicts ...... 
 
 . 
 
 . 
 
 15 
 
 9 
 
 71 
 
 
 
 
 Goyernment allowance in aid of County Prisoners when convicted * 
 
 from County R 
 
 
 
 
 464 
 
 3 
 
 
 ate . 
 
 - 
 
 - £. 
 
 Hi 
 
 Balance of Charge to be provided 
 
 460 
 
 16 
 
 3 
 
 Gross average Cost of Prisoners during the Quarter 
 Net average Cost after deducting Receipts . 
 
 Arerage number of County Prisoners per day 
 Ditto . Borough of Reading 
 Ditto . Borough of New Windsor 
 Ditto - Borougli of Newbury 
 Ditto . Borough of Abingdon 
 
 Total daily average number of Prisoners during the Quarter - 
 
 12,483 days, at 1 s. d^d. -{-^ f. per head. 
 
 - - - H d. U- „ 
 
 - - - 87g=} 
 
 21 
 
 71 
 
 
 13 7, ',4 
 
 * A corresponding allowance which does not come into County Receipts is made to Boroughs.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 489 
 
 Abstract of Expexditure for County Gaol at Reading, &c. — continued. 
 
 CoMPAKATivE ExPENDiTUKE and RECEIPT cf Four last Years. 
 
 (II.) 
 
 
 1 3 5 9. 
 
 I860. 
 
 1861. 
 
 18 62. 
 
 
 
 Expenditure -------- 
 
 Receipts from Boroughs, &c. . - - - - 
 
 £. $. 
 3,J8I 11 
 
 1,879 15 
 
 d. 
 
 4 
 
 n 
 
 £. s. d. 
 3,283 10 - 
 
 1,849 14 - 
 1,433 16 - 
 
 £. s. 
 3,491 13 
 
 2,217 17 
 
 d. 
 
 £. s. d, 
 3,546 10 - 
 
 2,160 3 2| 
 
 Balance of Charge upon the County Rate per annum, 
 after deducting all Receipts - - - - £• 
 
 1,701 15 
 
 H 
 
 1,273 IG 
 
 ~-i 
 
 1,380 6 OJ 
 
 Total Number of Days . - - ■ 
 Average Net Cost of each Prisoner per day 
 
 43,648 
 Hd- if. 
 
 34,210 
 10 rf. If. 
 
 41,810 
 'Id.^f 
 
 43,011 
 'I d. j/. 
 
 Comparative Statement. 
 
 (12.) 
 
 Disposal of Peisonees from Michaelmas 
 
 Comparative Numbee of Pei.soki;es Committed to the Gao? 
 and House of Correction for the followinr>; Years, ending 
 
 1861 to Michaelmas 1862. 
 
 
 IMichaelmas 1862. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Male. 
 
 Fem. 
 
 Total Number of Prisoners. 
 
 18.59. 
 
 1860. 
 
 1861. 
 
 1862. 
 
 Hanged ----- 
 
 1 
 
 
 Convicted felons . - - 
 
 193 
 
 228 
 
 275 
 
 2 7. J 
 
 Penal servitude - . . 
 
 13 
 
 - 
 
 Ditto niisdeiiieunors, including 
 
 
 
 
 
 Imprisoned for different periods, 
 
 
 
 those under summary convic- 
 
 
 
 
 
 and since discharged 
 
 480 
 
 100 
 
 tions - - - - - 
 
 131 
 
 121 
 
 176 
 
 2on 
 
 Acquitted and discharged - 
 
 45 
 
 5 
 
 Assaults . - - - 
 
 43 . 
 
 34 
 
 43 
 
 orr 
 
 Discharged on recognizance 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 Game laws - . - - 
 
 24 
 
 27 
 
 21 
 
 29 
 
 Discharircd on payment of fines 
 
 11 
 
 
 Committed on cliarge or suspi- 
 
 
 
 
 
 Debtors discharged - 
 
 30 
 
 - 
 
 cion of felony - - - 
 
 31 
 
 42 
 
 42 
 
 4i 
 
 Debtors in custody - - - 
 
 6 
 
 1 
 
 Committed on charge or suspi- 
 
 
 
 
 
 In custody for assizes 
 
 2 
 
 - 
 
 cion of misdemeanors - 
 
 12 
 
 11 
 
 10 
 
 14 
 
 In custody for sessions 
 
 11 
 
 3 
 
 Soldiers - - - - 
 
 56 
 
 23 
 
 31 
 
 17 
 
 In custody for re-examination - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 Debtors - - - - 
 
 21 
 
 16 
 
 23 
 
 !) 
 
 In custody' for different periods - 
 
 61 
 
 11 
 
 Ditto, under Small Debts Act - 
 
 37 
 
 19 
 
 31 
 
 27 
 
 In custodv under sentence of 
 
 
 
 Vatrrants . . - - 
 
 87 
 
 80 
 
 96 
 
 101 
 
 penal servitude - - . 
 
 6 
 
 _ 
 
 For further e.\an)in:ition - 
 
 20 
 
 19 
 
 8 
 
 13 
 
 Transferred to Abingdon county 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 prison - - - - - 
 On bail 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 Total - - - 
 
 
 
 
 
 TOT.^L - - - 
 
 069 
 
 127 j 
 
 655 
 
 020 
 
 756 
 
 79C' 
 
 Examined and allowed, 
 
 AiloJphiis II'. Young, "I 
 
 Il'arivick Morslttad, '\''isiting Justices, 
 
 W. Merry, \ 
 
 Samuel Ferry, Governor. 
 
 (37.— App.) 
 
 3Q
 
 490 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix E. 
 
 Appendix, E. 
 
 PAPERS delivered in by Edward Shepherd, Esq., 21 April 1863. 
 
 The Annual Average Number of Criminals committed to the West Riding Prison, Wake- 
 field, in the Five Years ending 1831, compared with those committed in the Five Years ending 
 1861, or 30 years after. 
 
 Annual Average 
 
 of 
 
 Five Years 
 
 ending 1831. 
 
 
 Annual Average 
 
 
 DESCRIPTION OF OFFEMDERS. 
 
 of 
 
 Five Years 
 
 ending 1861. 
 
 Increase. 
 
 1,240 
 
 Residents of the West Riding, committed to prison for 
 the first time. 
 
 1,28;-) 
 
 45 
 
 426 
 
 Non-resident strangers, tramps, and travelling thieves 
 not known to have been previously in prison. 
 
 1,297 
 
 671 
 
 922 
 
 Old offenders known to have been previously in prison 
 
 1,784 
 
 862 
 
 2,588 
 
 Average of five years .--... 
 
 4,I6G 
 
 1,578 
 
 A Scale of Diet recommended for all Prisoners in England and Wales, showing the Quantities 
 
 oi Food in Ounces per Week. 
 
 Class. 
 
 TERMS OF IMPRISONMENT. 
 
 Cereal. 
 A. 
 
 V^egetable. 
 B. 
 
 Animal. 
 C. 
 
 Total 
 
 in 
 
 Ounces. 
 
 Additional. 
 
 7 
 
 Prisoners committed for terms of im- 
 prisonment, not exceeding 10 days. 
 
 140 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 140 
 
 - 
 
 c 
 
 Prisoners committed for terms exceeding 
 10 days, and not exceeding 1 month. 
 
 104 
 
 36 
 
 - 
 
 200 
 
 - 
 
 5 
 
 All other prisonei's during the fir.-tmontli 
 of their confinement. 
 
 182 
 
 60 
 
 8 
 
 250 
 
 - 
 
 4 
 
 Obtainable by good conduct and industry 
 after the completion of 1 month's im- 
 priscmment. 
 
 188 
 
 68 
 
 10 
 
 260 
 
 - 
 
 3 
 
 Obtainable by good conduct and industry 
 after the completion of 4 montlis' im- 
 prisonment. 
 
 200 
 
 70 
 
 14 
 
 290 
 
 — 
 
 2 
 
 Obtainable by good conduct and industry 
 after the completion of « months' ini- 
 prisonmont. 
 
 200 
 
 104 
 
 16 
 
 320 
 
 - 
 
 ] 
 
 Obtainable by good conduct and industry 
 after the completion of 10 months' im- 
 prisonment. 
 
 200 
 
 104 
 
 10 
 
 320 
 
 Milk, 
 7 pints. 
 
 A. Cereal. — Consists of bread ; oatmeal, 2 ounces to each pint of grnel. 
 
 „ flour used in puddings or in soup. 
 
 „ })eas used in sou|i. 
 
 B. Vegetable. — Chiefly potatoes and onions. 
 
 C. Animal. — Meat cooked, given cold or in soup ; calculated without bone and after boilin"-. 
 
 If a prisoner misconduct himself, he may be reproved or punished by solitary confinement on 
 bread and water for tiiree days, or reduced iu class, at the discretion of the Governor.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 491 
 
 Appendix F. 
 
 PAPEKS delivered in by William Oakley, Esq., 24 April 1863. 
 
 STATEMENT of Weekly Allowance of Diet for Adult Males, according to the Dietary Tables of the undermcntioiiej 
 
 Union Workliouses. 
 
 UNION WORKHOUSES. 
 
 Somerset ; 
 
 Axbridge* 
 
 Bath 
 
 Bed minster 
 
 Brid::water 
 
 Cliard 
 
 Dulverton 
 
 Frome 
 
 Keynsliam 
 
 Lanuport - 
 
 Shepioa Mallet 
 
 Tauntoa - 
 
 Wells 
 
 Wellinglon 
 
 Williloii - 
 
 Wincanton 
 
 Yeovil 
 
 Devon: 
 
 Bnrnstaple 
 Creditcn 
 Dev'inport 
 Exeter 
 Hoaiton - 
 Kingsbridge 
 Newton Alibott- 
 South Multcn - 
 Tavistock 
 Tiverton - 
 Thomas, St. 
 Totringion 
 Totness - 
 
 DonsBT : 
 
 Axminster 
 
 Beamioster 
 
 Bl-indford 
 
 Dorchester 
 
 Sheiborne 
 
 Siurminster 
 
 Wimborne 
 
 Wevinoulh 
 
 Wilts ; 
 
 Caliie 
 
 Chip|>ei)ham 
 
 Devizes 
 
 Mailborough 
 
 Melksham 
 
 Salisbury - 
 
 Warminster 
 
 MiDULKSEX : 
 
 Clerkenwell 
 
 Hulborn - - - 
 
 46 Union Workhouses 
 
 Somerset County Gaol, 
 Taunton. 
 
 126 
 126 
 117 
 
 913 
 126 
 
 98 
 126 
 114 
 109 
 126 
 102 
 104 
 112 
 100 
 117 
 104 
 
 112 
 
 102 
 
 92 
 
 117 
 
 119 
 
 119 
 
 10.5 
 
 117 
 
 124 
 
 119 
 
 98 
 
 117 
 
 84 
 
 97 
 122 
 109 
 110 
 
 'M 
 126 
 117 
 108 
 
 128 
 105 
 118 
 113 
 120 
 118 
 132 
 
 102 
 98 
 
 8 
 
 13 
 
 1.5 
 
 9 
 
 8 
 
 15 
 
 10 
 
 8 
 
 8 
 
 .5 
 
 12 
 
 11 
 
 6 
 
 12 
 
 6 
 
 12 
 
 13 
 12 
 12 
 16 
 12 
 1.5 
 12 
 15 
 
 114 
 
 13 
 
 12 
 
 14 
 
 12 
 
 8 
 8 
 10 
 10 
 15 
 13 
 10 
 11 
 
 II 
 
 8 
 12 
 16 
 10 
 
 15 
 15 
 
 24 
 36 
 
 eo 
 
 40 
 112 
 
 48 
 38 
 40 
 40 
 
 48 
 
 128 
 
 50 
 
 72 
 
 72 
 
 48 
 
 48 
 72 
 48 
 52 
 48 
 30 
 48 
 48 
 
 48 
 84 
 48 
 80 
 
 56 
 
 04 
 32 
 32 
 36 
 32 
 64 
 
 90 
 64 
 81 
 04 
 88 
 24 
 32 
 
 pints. 
 
 3 
 
 ii 
 
 u 
 
 3 
 
 4^ 
 
 H 
 H 
 
 3 
 
 32 
 
 24 
 
 o p3 
 O 
 
 3 
 5 
 •3 
 
 3| 
 3 
 4i 
 4i 
 3 
 10 
 
 H 
 
 6 
 3 
 
 4i 
 3 
 
 n 
 
 pints. 
 
 \H 
 
 lOi 
 
 13 
 
 10> 
 
 10 
 
 14^ 
 
 10:^ 
 10| 
 
 13i 
 
 10| 
 
 15 
 
 lOi 
 
 lOi 
 
 15' 
 
 lOi 
 
 lOJ 
 
 14 
 
 15 
 
 10 
 
 21 
 
 21 
 
 17J 
 
 18 
 
 I5i 
 
 I3i 
 
 16j 
 
 21 
 
 105 
 
 16i 
 
 13i 
 10| 
 lOi 
 
 3' 
 
 lOJ 
 
 44 
 
 lOJ 
 
 - 
 
 101 
 
 H 
 
 10,1 
 
 4i 
 
 135 
 
 2 
 
 14 
 
 U 
 
 - 
 
 n 
 
 105 
 
 4 
 
 14 
 
 1 
 
 lOJ 
 
 u 
 
 105 
 
 15 
 
 195 
 
 4 
 
 105 
 
 4i 
 
 m 
 
 oz. 
 
 10 
 
 18J 
 
 8 
 10 
 lij 
 
 185 
 15 
 10 
 15 
 
 8 
 12i 
 
 7 
 10 
 15 
 125 
 
 16 
 
 8 
 
 11 
 
 13i 
 15 
 20 
 8 
 185 
 14 
 10 
 
 65 
 12 
 
 85 
 16 
 16 
 
 6 
 
 pts. 
 
 Total 
 Solid 
 Food. 
 
 n 
 
 11 
 
 Pints of 
 Beer. 
 
 3V 
 
 46) 
 
 Total 
 Liquid 
 
 Food. 
 
 248J 
 
 206i 
 
 249 
 
 2255 
 
 274 
 
 200 
 
 180 
 
 170 
 159 
 
 9^23 
 
 202 
 
 pints. 
 
 172 
 
 165 
 
 1815 
 
 12 
 
 190 
 
 194 
 
 191 
 
 12 
 
 202^ 
 
 10 
 
 235 
 
 18| 
 
 2025 
 
 12 
 
 175A 
 
 12 
 
 200 
 
 18 
 
 200 
 
 lOi 
 
 184 
 
 18 
 
 267i 
 
 1^ 
 
 213 
 
 191 
 
 222 
 
 15 
 
 230 
 
 lOJ 
 
 1905 
 
 1»4 
 
 217 
 
 14 
 
 219 
 
 16 
 
 184 
 
 15 
 
 201 
 
 24 
 
 195 
 
 24J 
 
 208 
 
 205 
 
 185 
 
 225 
 
 202 
 
 20 
 
 107i 
 
 165 
 
 200 
 
 265 
 
 220 
 
 24J 
 
 201 
 
 165 
 
 214 
 
 19J 
 
 188 
 
 18 
 
 2235 
 
 135 
 
 182 
 
 12 
 
 186 
 
 135 
 
 169 
 
 15 
 
 1895 
 
 10* 
 
 253 
 
 15 
 
 143 
 
 18 
 
 16 
 
 125 
 
 12 
 
 18 
 
 Hi 
 
 12 
 
 21 
 
 18 
 15 
 
 743A 
 
 16 
 
 REMARKS. 
 
 » Quantity of e.nh in^redieiit 
 to a Gallon of Pease Soup 
 — Peas, two pints, with one 
 or tv\*o ox cheeks, ami one 
 or two legs, Bccordin;; to 
 the number of paupers. 
 Meat and bone, 12 oz. 
 
 Rice Soup. — iMeat, the same 
 as above. Rice, 6oz. 
 
 Broth. — The Broth used is 
 twice in the week for sup- 
 per on the meat dinner 
 days, and is made from 
 the waste or gravy of the 
 meat which is saved for 
 that purpose (tlie meat 
 used is without bene). 
 
 Gruel. — Average I lb. limb- 
 den groats to each Gallon. 
 
 Suet Pudding. —9^02. floni, 
 lioz. suet, to make 1 lb. 
 
 Wm. Oakley, 
 
 Governor.. 
 
 (37— App.) 
 
 3 Q 2
 
 492 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 |?T \TEMENT of Weekly Allowance of Diet for Male Prisoners (on the highest Class), according to the Dietary 
 
 Tables of the undermentioned 50 County Gaols. 
 
 COUNTY, 
 
 and wlien Cerlified. 
 
 gcsttRSET" - 
 
 Anglesey '' 
 
 Berks ' - 
 Bedf.ird 
 BuckingliJm 
 Brecon - 
 Cumberland 
 
 Carmarthen 
 
 Cornwall 
 Cheshire 
 Cardigan 
 Carnarvon 
 Canibridge 
 Denbigh 
 Devon - 
 JJerby - 
 
 Dorset - 
 
 Durham 
 Kssex - 
 
 Flint 
 Glamorgan 
 
 Gloucester 
 
 Hi'reforil 
 Hainpihire 
 
 Hertford 
 
 iUintingilon - 
 
 Kent 
 
 Ijancusliire 
 
 Leicester 
 
 J^incoln - 
 
 Jliddlesex 
 
 Moiitfiomery - 
 Northuinberiand 
 J^tirvvich 
 JVoltin'^hani 
 I*»orll'ainptiin - 
 Oxfoid - 
 
 IVn.l.K.kc 
 
 ILniniir - 
 
 liutl.in.l 
 
 tiuriey (Horsemonger 
 Liov). 
 
 Slafford - 
 
 Suflolk (Bury SU Ed- 
 munds). 
 
 Sussex (Lewes) 
 
 t;hrn|whire 
 Wiltihire (Salisbury) 
 
 VViBtmcircland 
 
 Worcesler 
 
 Warwick 
 
 I 1850 
 
 York 
 
 1850 
 1850 
 
 1851 
 
 1843 
 
 1850 
 1849 
 
 1854 
 1850 
 1850 
 1857 
 
 1852 
 
 1857 
 1857 
 
 1 852 
 1819 
 
 1850 
 18GU 
 
 18G2 
 
 50 Cauls. 
 
 Somerset County Gaol, 
 Taunton, 
 
 n 
 
 
 <c. 
 
 1850 
 
 154 
 
 _ 
 
 154 
 
 „ 
 
 154 
 
 1857 
 
 154 
 
 1858 
 
 154 
 
 184.5 
 
 108 
 
 1801 
 
 154 
 
 1849 
 
 IGS 
 
 1802 
 
 154 
 
 1850 
 
 154 
 
 1850 
 
 154 
 
 - 
 
 154 
 
 - 
 
 154 
 
 _ 
 
 168 
 
 1851 
 
 154 
 
 1800 
 
 154 
 
 172 
 
 108 
 154 
 
 1U8 
 108 
 
 10 
 
 IG 
 10 
 10 
 
 ■118 
 12 
 
 126 
 
 108 
 
 154 
 '217 
 154 
 154 
 126 
 1U8 
 139 J 
 
 ICS 
 36 
 151 
 154 
 154 
 154 
 
 280 
 126 
 154 
 154 
 
 1.54 
 li4 
 
 IG8 
 
 154 
 168 
 
 44 
 
 1.54 
 151 
 
 140 
 
 108 ; 21 
 
 16 
 
 12 [ 
 
 10 
 12 1 
 
 10 ! 
 
 IG 
 16 
 
 12 ; 
 
 24 
 
 8 
 12 
 10 
 16 
 16 
 16 
 
 10 
 
 15 
 
 pints 
 
 112 
 
 112 
 
 112 
 112 
 112 
 112 
 112 
 
 32 
 
 112 
 112 
 112 
 112 
 112 
 112 
 112 
 112 
 
 32 
 
 88 
 112 
 
 112 
 
 112 
 
 112 
 
 48 
 
 112 
 104 
 112 
 112 
 112 
 32 
 32 
 
 64 
 00 
 112 
 112 
 112 
 112 
 
 112 
 112 
 112 
 
 112 
 112 
 
 112 
 
 112 
 112 
 
 96 
 112 
 112 
 
 G4 
 
 O ZJ 
 
 '3 
 3 
 3 
 3 
 3 
 
 3 
 K4 
 
 '3 
 3 
 
 *4 
 
 3 
 "3 
 
 3 
 2 
 3 
 
 3 
 3 
 3 
 
 4^ 
 
 3 
 3 
 3 
 3 
 3 
 3 
 
 3 
 
 3 
 3 
 3 
 
 or stew 
 
 pints. 
 
 14 
 
 14 
 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 U 
 
 17 
 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 17* 
 
 14 
 
 14 
 
 14 
 
 7 
 
 14 
 
 14 
 
 14 
 14 
 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 
 14 
 11 
 14 
 
 14 
 14 
 14 
 
 tea and 
 gruel. 
 
 3SJ 
 It 
 14 
 14 
 
 14 
 
 14 
 
 U 
 
 14 
 14 
 
 II 
 14 
 
 milk and 
 fVueL 
 
 14 
 
 c 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 0) 
 
 ■*j 
 
 o 
 
 
 
 
 O 
 
 :U 
 
 in 
 
 or. 
 
 oz. 
 
 oz. 
 
 :. pts. 
 
 Total 
 Solid 
 Food. 
 
 Total 
 Liquid 
 Food. 
 
 3li 
 
 16 
 
 5i 
 
 70 
 
 50) 
 
 201 
 
 282 
 
 282 
 262 
 282 
 298 
 
 278 
 
 204 
 
 213 
 
 301 
 
 254 
 231 
 
 pints, 
 
 17 
 
 17 
 17 
 
 ir 
 
 17 
 14 
 
 17 
 
 21 
 
 282 
 
 17 
 
 282 
 
 17 
 
 282 
 
 17 
 
 282 
 
 17 
 
 282 
 
 17 
 
 284 
 
 14 
 
 2S2 
 
 15 
 
 275 
 
 211 
 
 2S0 
 
 282 
 
 280 
 
 219 
 
 282 
 2t>2 
 
 222 
 
 20 
 
 272 
 
 17 
 
 282 
 
 17 
 
 205 i 
 
 14 
 
 292 
 
 18 
 
 14 
 
 17 
 17 
 
 282 
 
 17 
 
 333 
 
 16 
 
 282 
 
 17 
 
 282 
 
 17 
 
 254 
 
 17 
 
 212 
 
 17 
 
 195* 
 
 Igi 
 
 240 
 
 17 
 
 100 
 
 17 
 
 282 
 
 17 
 
 282 
 
 17 
 
 252 
 
 17 
 
 282 
 
 J7 
 
 287 
 
 3Si 
 
 254 
 
 17 
 
 282 
 
 17 
 
 2-.2 
 
 17 
 
 282 
 
 17 
 
 282 
 
 17 
 
 21 
 
 17 
 21 
 
 17 
 
 U 
 
 1 3,:? 85 86!»:l 
 
 207 
 
 17 
 
 Tv E.MARKS. 
 
 ^^ The soup is made of the liquor in 
 
 which the meat was boiled tht: 
 I previous Ja^s, with about 3 oz. 
 of nu-at ndJt'd lor each jiint of 
 soup ; 3 oz. cooked nieuL also 
 supplied lo each prisoner, so 
 that oil soupdays each has nearly 
 oz. meat. 
 
 i>No paiticulurs of ingredients for 
 soup. 
 
 ^ Gruei .'-easoned with salt: no 
 molasses or su^ar. 
 
 As Berks. 
 
 ii Vi/ei^bt of meat, uncooked. 
 
 Ail cunvieted prisoners, for the first 
 seven days (18 oz. bread only)„ 
 
 ^ The soup contain* unly 3 oz. un- 
 cooked meat t.> each quart, 
 
 ' Soup, 2 07.. r.iw meat ; pruel 
 seaiioned witii s.'.lt ; no molasses, 
 sugar, or cocoa. 
 
 No cocoa, mola.sses or sugar, 
 
 S'lme as Cornwall. 
 
 & Soup, only 1 HZ. (supposed raw) 
 meat 1(1 each pint ; cocoa re- 
 cently suKstiluttd for ^ruel for 
 periods exceeding three months. 
 
 '' No meat except in soup ; no cocua, 
 molasses, or sugar. 
 
 ' Soup made of 4 oz. uncooked meat : 
 no cocoa, molasses, or sugar* 
 
 ^Soup, 3 oz, (supposed raw) meat; 
 gruel seasoned with sail ; no 
 cocoa, molasses, or sugar. 
 
 ' No soup, cocoa, molasses or sue;ar; 
 1 oz. cheese for supper on Sun- 
 days in lieu of prrui:], to allow 
 cooks to attend JJivine service. 
 
 ™ Soup, 4 oz. ui:cooki:d meat ; alur- 
 nately piase soup. 
 
 No cocou, molasses or sugar. 
 
 ° U3 oz. moie bread per week than 
 Somerset, but 13 oz. less meat, 
 8 oz. less potatoes, 1 pint less 
 soup. 
 
 All prisoners exceedinp;two months, 
 more soup, but less meal, bread 
 and potatoes than Somerset. 
 
 Considerably less than Somerset, 
 
 About to be alteied. 
 
 '*Soup contains 3 oz. uncooked 
 
 meat ; no rneoa. molasses.or sugar, 
 Giuel seasoiifd with salt, 
 t* Soup contains 3 oz. uncooked meat^ 
 
 hO cocoa, molassts, or sugar. 
 Appears the latest dietary certitied, 
 
 and one of the lowest. 
 Sugar and molasses discontinued. 
 
 Soup mnde from liquor of previoos 
 day (nt-^w, li oz. cooked meat) 
 
 Wm, OMe^t (governor.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 493 
 
 -Appendix F. 
 
 RETURN SHOWING CoMPAPasoN of 
 
 / 
 
 \ 
 
 Five Years of Treadwheel and Oakum-picking 
 
 With Five Years of useful Employment to a 
 
 Labour for Prisoners. 
 
 limited Extent. 
 
 
 Number 
 
 Number 
 
 
 Number 
 
 Number 
 
 YEAR S. 
 
 of 
 
 uf 
 
 YEARS. 
 
 of 
 
 of 
 
 
 Prisoners. 
 
 Re-committals. 
 
 
 Prisoners. 
 
 Re-committalB. 
 
 1852 - 
 
 765 
 
 284 
 
 1857 
 
 625 
 
 143 
 
 1853 - 
 
 749 
 
 258 
 
 1858 
 
 600 
 
 103 
 
 1854 - 
 
 1 786 
 
 232 
 
 1859 
 
 602 
 
 172 
 
 1855 - 
 
 756 
 
 180 
 
 1860 
 
 584 
 
 143 
 
 1856 - 
 
 646 
 
 176 
 
 1861 
 
 708 
 
 167 
 
 
 5)3,702 
 
 6)1,136 
 
 5)3,119 
 
 5)728 
 
 
 740 
 
 227 
 
 623 
 
 145 
 
 (37— App.) 
 
 3q3 
 
 /
 
 494 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix G. 
 
 PAPER dtliveied in by William Golden Lumlerj, Esq., 24 April 1863. 
 
 Poor Law Commission Office, Somerset House, 
 Appendix G. Sir, 4 December 1835. 
 
 The following Dietaries, numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, have been used in different parts of 
 England, and all of them have been proved to be sufficient in quantity, and perfectly unex- 
 ceptionable as to the nature of the provisions specified in each. 
 
 These Dietaries are now offered to Boards of Guardians, to select from them that one 
 which apjjears to be the best adapted for each particular Union. 
 
 In making this selection, especial reference must be had to the usual mode of living of the 
 independent labourers of the district in which the Union is situated, and on no account must 
 the Dietary of the workhouse be superior, or equal to, the ordinary mode of subsistence of 
 the labouring classes of the neighbourhood. 
 
 Want of attention to this essential point has been the cause of much evil, by too 
 frequently exhibiting the pauper inmates of a workhouse as fed, lodged, and clothed, in a 
 way superior to individuals subsisting by their own honest industry, thereby lessening the 
 stimulus to exertion, and holding out an inducement to idle and improvident habits. 
 
 The Board of Guardians, afier they have made a selection of the Dietary most suitable 
 to the particuhir circumstances of their Union, will notify the fact to the Poor Law Com- 
 missioners, specifying the number of the Dietary so selected, and the Commissioners will 
 then issue the same under seal, and thus render its observance imperative. 
 
 To the Clerk of the Board of Guardians, 
 of the Union. 
 
 By Order of the Board, 
 
 Edwin Chadwick, Secretary.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 495 
 
 No. 1. — Dietary for Able-bodied Men and Women. 
 
 Sunday - 
 
 Monday - 
 
 Tuesday - 
 
 Wednesday 
 
 Thursday 
 
 Fiiday 
 
 Saturday 
 
 ("Men 
 LWomen 
 
 JMen 
 I^Women 
 
 f Man 
 \^ Women 
 
 _fMen 
 I^Women 
 
 J Men 
 [^ Women 
 
 J Men 
 "\Women 
 
 j'Men 
 ^^Women 
 
 BREAKFAST. 
 
 Bread. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 Gruel. 
 
 Pints. 
 
 u 
 
 14 
 
 n 
 
 u 
 
 li 
 IJ 
 
 H 
 
 Cooked 
 
 Meat. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 5 
 
 DINNER. 
 
 Potatoes. 
 
 Lb. 
 
 Soup. 
 
 Pints. 
 
 n 
 
 n 
 
 n 
 
 li 
 
 Suet, or 
 
 Rice 
 Pudding. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 14 
 12 
 
 SUPPER. 
 
 Bread. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 6 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 6 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 Cheese. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Broth. 
 
 Pints. 
 li 
 
 n 
 
 n 
 
 Old people, of 60 years of age and upwards, may be allowed 1 oz. of tea, 7 oz. of butter, and 8 oz. of sugar per week, in 
 lieu of gruel for breakfast, if deemed expedient to make this change. 
 
 Children, under nine years of age, to be dieted at discretion ; above nine, to be allowed the same quantities as women. 
 Sick to be dieted as directed by the medical officer. 
 
 No. 2. — General Dietary for the Able-bodied. 
 
 Sunday - 
 
 Monday - 
 
 Tuesday - 
 
 Wednesday 
 
 Thursday 
 
 Friday 
 
 Saturday 
 
 /Men 
 '(^ Women - 
 
 JMen 
 "l^Women - 
 
 fMen 
 "\ Women - 
 
 fMen - 
 "l^Women - 
 
 J Men - 
 "\_ Women - 
 
 fMen 
 " (^Women - 
 
 BREAKFAST. 
 
 Bread. 
 
 
 en 
 omen - 
 
 Oz. 
 
 c 
 
 .5 
 6 
 
 6 
 
 6 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 Cheese. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Butter. 
 
 Oz 
 
 DINNER. 
 
 Meat Pudding, 
 with 
 
 Vegetables. • 
 
 Or. 
 
 16 
 
 10 
 
 Suet Pudding, 
 
 with Bread. 
 
 Vegetables. * 
 
 Oz. 
 
 16 
 10 
 
 16 
 10 
 
 Cheese. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 SUPPER. 
 
 Bread. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 6 
 6 
 
 6 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 C 
 
 5 
 
 e 
 
 5 
 
 Cheese. ' Butter. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Old people, being all 60 years of age, and upwards. — The weekly addition of 1 oz. of tea, and milk, also an additional meat 
 pudding dinner on Thursday in each week, in lieu of bread and cheese, for those wiiose age and infirmities it may be deemed 
 proper and requisite. 
 
 Children. — Bread and milk for their breakfast and supper, or gruel when milk cannot be obtained ; also such proportions of 
 the dinner diet as may be requisite for their respective ages. 
 
 Sick. — Whatever is ordered for them by tlie medicul olficer. 
 
 * The vegetablts are eitra, and not included in the weight specified. 
 
 (37— App.) 
 
 3 q4
 
 496 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 No. 3. — DiETAKY for Able-bodied Pcrsous aliovc iS'iiie Years of Aoc. 
 
 
 BREAKFAST. 
 
 
 D I N N E 
 
 R. 
 
 
 SUPPER. 
 
 
 Bread. 
 
 Gruul. 
 
 Cooked 
 
 Meat. 
 
 I Vegetables 
 
 Soup. 
 
 Bread. 
 
 Cheese. 
 
 Bread. 
 
 Cheese. 
 
 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Pints. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Lb. 
 
 Pints. 
 
 a- 
 
 0^. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Or. 
 
 Sunday - 
 
 JMen - 
 " l^Women - 
 
 6 
 
 5 
 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 7 
 
 o 
 
 1.^ 
 
 6 
 
 5 
 
 1^ 
 
 Monday - 
 
 fMen 
 "L Women - 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 16 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 _ 
 
 7 
 6 
 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 li 
 li 
 
 Tuesday - 
 
 JMen - 
 '\ Women - 
 
 6 
 
 5 
 
 
 8 
 6 
 
 J. 
 
 _ 
 
 _ 
 
 - 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 
 Wcdnesdajr 
 
 JMen - 
 "l^Wouien - 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 n 
 li 
 
 "" 
 
 - 
 
 .. 
 
 7 
 6 
 
 li 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 li 
 
 Thursday 
 
 fMen 
 "\ Women - 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 li 
 
 - 
 
 _ 
 
 n 
 
 - 
 
 .^ 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 li 
 1* 
 
 Friday 
 
 'Men 
 |_ Women • 
 
 
 5 
 
 11 
 1^ 
 
 : 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 7 
 6 
 
 o 
 
 1.1 
 
 
 6 
 
 u 
 li 
 
 Saturday - 
 
 JMen - 
 \Women - 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 li 
 
 Bacon. 
 o 
 4 
 
 i 
 
 I 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 
 li 
 1* 
 
 Old people, of 60 years of age and upwards, may be allowed 1 oz. of tea, 7 oz. of butter, and 8 oz. of sugar per week, in- 
 lieu of gruel for breakfast, if deemed expedient to make tliis change. 
 
 Children under nine years of age to be dieted at discretion ; above nine, to be allowed the same quantities as women. 
 Sick to be dieted as directed bv the medical officer. 
 
 
 No. 
 
 4.— D 
 
 [ETAKl 
 
 for Able-bodied Paupers of both 8oxc 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 BREAKFAST. 
 
 DINNER. 
 
 SUPPER. 
 
 
 
 Pickled Pork, 
 or Bacon, 
 
 Soup. 
 
 Bread. 
 
 Meat Pudding 
 witli 
 
 Rice, or Suet 
 Pudding, 
 
 Bread. 
 
 ■^ 
 
 
 
 Bread. 
 
 Gruel. 
 
 Cheese. 
 
 
 
 
 
 with Vegetables. 
 
 
 
 Vegetables. 
 
 with Vegetables. 
 
 
 
 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Pints. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Qt. pts. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Sunday - 
 
 JMen - 
 "(_ Women - 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 
 • 
 
 1 
 li 
 
 4 
 3 
 
 
 . 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 2 
 
 Monday - 
 
 _fMen - 
 l_Women - 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 11 
 
 ll 
 
 _ 
 
 
 
 - 
 
 10 
 1(1 
 
 G 
 5 
 
 2 
 
 2' 
 
 Tuesday - 
 
 _fMea - 
 l^ Women - 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 I.\ 
 
 IJ 
 
 - 
 
 1 
 11 
 
 4 
 3 
 
 • 
 
 - 
 
 5 
 
 •2 
 
 Wednesday 
 
 JMen - 
 'l_Women - 
 
 (i 
 5 
 
 li 
 li 
 
 6 
 
 5 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 6 
 5 
 
 o 
 
 2 
 
 Thursday 
 
 JMfcu - 
 '\^ Women - 
 
 c 
 
 5 
 
 1.'. 
 ll 
 
 *" 
 
 _ 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 1-2 
 
 10 
 
 5 
 
 
 Friday 
 
 _fMeu - 
 "I^Women - 
 
 
 
 5 
 
 li 
 l- 
 
 - 
 
 1 
 
 H 
 
 4 
 3 
 
 - 
 
 . 
 
 G 
 6 
 
 2 
 2^ 
 
 Saturday 
 
 JMen - 
 "(^ Women - 
 
 C 
 a 
 
 l.\ 
 
 li 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 12 
 10 
 
 - 
 
 
 .5 
 
 2 
 
 2 
 
 Tlic vegetables are not included in the weij;ht specified, which is for the meat when cooked. If it be thought desirable, 
 1 oz. of butter may bo given in lieu of the 2 ozi of cheese for supper. 
 
 Old people of GO years of age, and upwards, may be allowed 1 oz. of tea, 7 oz. of butter, and 8 oz. of sugar per week, in lieu 
 of gruel for breakfast, if deemed e.\])ediont to neike this change. 
 
 Children under nine years of age to be dieted at discretion; above nine, to be allowed the same quantities as women. 
 
 Sick to be dieted as directed by ihc medical officer.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 497 
 
 No. 5. — Dietary for Able-bodied Paupers, both Men and Women. 
 
 Appendix G. 
 
 
 BREAKFAST. 
 
 DINN ER. 
 
 SUPPER. 
 
 
 Sunday - 
 
 Pint and half of gruel 
 or porridge. 
 
 6 oz. cooked meat, J lb. vege- 
 table. 
 
 Bread and 1| oz. cheese. 
 
 Monday - 
 
 - - ditto - - - 
 
 Pint and half of soup 
 
 1 lb. potatoes. 
 
 Tuesday - 
 
 - - ditto - 
 
 14 oz. boiled rice or suet pud- 
 ding. 
 
 Bread and 1 J oz. cheese. 
 
 Wednesday 
 
 - - ditto - 
 
 Bread 6 oz., and 2 oz. cheese - 
 
 j lb. potatoes. 
 
 Tliursday 
 
 - - ditto - 
 
 5 oz. cooked meat, ^ lb. vege- 
 table. 
 
 Bread and 1^ oz. cheese. 
 
 Friday - 
 
 - - ditto - 
 
 Pint and lialf of soup 
 
 1 lb. potatoes. 
 
 Saturday 
 
 - - ditto - - - 
 
 Bread 6 oz., and 2 oz. cheese - 
 
 - - ditto. 
 
 Men 
 
 Women 
 
 12 oz. bread per day. 
 10 
 
 n )> 
 
 Dietary for the Aged and Infirm Men and Women. 
 
 « 
 
 BREAKFAST. 
 
 DINNER. 
 
 SUPPER. 
 
 
 Tea or Coffee. 
 
 Meat, with 
 
 Vegetables 
 
 at Discretion. 
 
 
 
 
 Pudding. 
 
 Rice Milk 
 
 or 
 
 Soup. 
 
 Tea or Coffee. 
 
 Sunday . - • 
 Monday ... 
 Tuesday ... 
 Wednesday ... 
 Thursday ... 
 Friday - . - . 
 Saturday ... 
 
 Pints. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 4 
 
 4 
 4 
 
 Oz. 
 
 12 
 
 Pints. 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 1 
 
 Pints. 
 
 Total - - - 
 
 7 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 3 
 
 7 
 
 Bread, 1 oz. per day. 
 Butter 7 „ per week. 
 Sugar 8 „ ditto. 
 
 Children, under nine years of age, to be dieted at discretion : above nine, to be allowed the 
 same quantities as women. 
 
 Sick - 
 
 To be dieted as directed by the medical officer. 
 
 (37.— App.) 
 
 3 R
 
 498 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix H. 
 
 Appendix H. 
 
 AMENDED TABLE of Dietaries for Prisoners in Norwich Castle. 
 
 The following are the prescribed Rates of Diet : — 
 Class 1. 
 
 Convicted Prisoners, confined for any term not exceeding Seven Days. 
 
 Breakfast - 
 Dinner 
 
 Supper 
 
 Males. 
 
 Oatmeal gruel 
 Bread - 
 Oatmeal gruel 
 
 1 pint 
 lib. 
 1 pint 
 
 Females. 
 
 Oatmeal gruel 
 I'read 
 Oatmeal gruel 
 
 1 pint, 
 I lb. 
 I pint. 
 
 Class 2. 
 Convicted. Prisoners for any term exceeding Seven Days, but not exceeding Twenty-one Days. 
 
 
 
 Males. 
 
 
 Females. 
 
 
 Breakfast - - - 
 
 Oatmeal gruel 
 
 . 
 
 1 pint 
 
 Oatmeal gruel 
 
 1 pint. 
 
 ... 
 
 Bread - 
 
 - 
 
 6 oz. 
 
 Bread ... 
 
 6 oz. 
 
 Dinner . . - 
 
 Bread - 
 
 . 
 
 12 oz. 
 
 Bread ... 
 
 6 02. 
 
 Supper ... 
 
 Oatmeal gruel 
 
 .. 
 
 1 pint 
 
 Oatmeal gruel 
 
 1 pint. 
 
 >» ... 
 
 Bread - 
 
 - 
 
 6 oz. 
 
 Bread ... 
 
 6 oz. 
 
 Prisoners of this class employed at Hard Labour, to have, in addition, 1 pint of soup per week. 
 
 Class 3. 
 
 Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour, for terms exceeding Twenty-one Days, but not more 
 than Six Weeks ; and Convicted Prisoners not employed at Hard Labour, for terms exceeding 
 Twenty-one Days, but not more than Four Months. 
 
 Breakfast 
 
 Males. 
 
 Females, 
 
 Oatmeal gruel 
 Bread - 
 
 1 pmt 
 6 oz. 
 
 Oatmeal gruel 
 Bread 
 
 1 pint. 
 6 oz. 
 
 Di: 
 
 Sunday and Thursday. 
 
 Soup - 
 Bread - 
 
 1 pint 
 8 oz. 
 
 Soup 
 Bread 
 
 1 pint. 
 6 oz. 
 
 
 Tuesday and Saturday. 
 
 Cooked meat, without bone 3 oz. 
 Bread . - - - 8 oz. 
 
 Potatoes - - - J lb. 
 
 Cooked meat, without bone 3 oz. 
 Bread - - - - 6 oz. 
 Potatoes - - - J lb. 
 
 Supper 
 
 Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. 
 
 Bread - - . 
 Potatoes 
 
 - 1 Same as breakfast - 
 
 8 oz. I Bread - 
 1 lb. I Potatoes 
 
 - I Same as breakfast. 
 
 6 oz. 
 lib.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 499 
 
 Table of Dietauies for Prisoners in Norwich Castle — continued. 
 
 Appendix H. 
 
 Class 4. 
 
 Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour, for terms exceeding Six Weeks, but not more than 
 Four Months; and Convicted Prisoners not employed at Hard Labour, for terms exceeding 
 Four Months. 
 
 Breakfast 
 » 
 
 Dinner 
 » 
 
 Supper 
 
 Males. 
 
 Oatmeal gruel 
 Bread - 
 
 1 pint 
 8 oz. 
 
 Females. 
 
 Oatmeal gruel 
 Bread 
 
 1 pint. 
 6 oz. 
 
 Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. 
 
 Cooked meat, without bone - 3 oz. 
 
 Potatoes - - - - i lb. 
 
 Bread - - - - 8 oz. 
 
 Cooked meat, without bone 3 oz. 
 Potatoes - - - - ^ lb. 
 Bread - - - - 6 oz. 
 
 Sunday, Wednesday, and Friday. 
 
 - I Soup - . . 
 
 Bread - - - 
 
 - I Same as breakfast - 
 
 1 pint 
 8 oz. 
 
 Soup - - - - 1 pint. 
 
 Bread - - - 6 oz. 
 
 Same as breakfast. 
 
 Class 5. 
 Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour, for terms exceeding Four Months. 
 
 Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. 
 
 Breakfast 
 Dinner 
 
 Breakfast - 
 
 Dinner 
 
 Supper 
 
 Males. 
 
 Females. 
 
 Oatmeal gruel - - 1 pint Oatmeal gruel - - 1 pint. 
 
 Bread - - - - 8 oz. Bread - - - 6 oz. 
 
 Cooked meat, without bone 4 oz. Cooked meat, without bone 3 oz. 
 
 Potatoes - - - 1 lb. Potatoes - - - J lb. 
 
 Bread - - - - 6 oz. Bread - - - 6 oz. 
 
 Sunday, Wednesday, and Friday. 
 
 Cocoa . - . - 1 pint 
 
 made of J oz. of flaked cocoa or 
 cocoa nibs, sweetened with ^ oz. 
 of molasses or sugar. 
 
 Bread - - - - 8 oz. 
 
 ^oup - ... 1 pint 
 
 Potatoes - - - 1 lb. 
 
 Bread - - - - 6 oz. 
 
 Oatmeal gruel - - 1 pint 
 
 Bread - - - - 8 oz. 
 
 Cocoa - - - 1 pint 
 made of f oz. of flaked cocoa or 
 cocoa nibs, sweetened with | oz. 
 of molasses or sugar. 
 
 liread - - - 6 oz. 
 
 Soup ... 1 pint^ 
 
 Potatoes - - - J lb. 
 
 Bread - - - 6 oz. 
 
 Oatmeal gruel - - 1 pint. 
 
 Bread - - - 6 oz. 
 
 Class 6. 
 
 Prisoners sentenced bj- Court to Solitary Confinement. 
 
 3Iales. 
 The ordinary diet of their respective classes. 
 
 Females. 
 The ordinary diet of their respective classes. 
 
 Class 7. 
 
 Prisoners for Examination, before Trial, and Misdemeanants of the first division, who do not 
 
 maintain themselves. 
 
 Males. 
 The same as Class 4. 
 
 Females. 
 
 The same as Class 4. 
 
 (37.— App.) 
 
 3 R 2 
 
 i _
 
 500 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix H. 
 
 Table of Dietaries for Prisoners in Norwich Castle — continued. 
 
 Class 8. 
 Destitute Debtors, 
 
 Males. 
 The same as Class 4, 
 
 Females. 
 The same as Class 4. 
 
 Class 9. 
 
 Prisoners under punishment for Prison Offences, for terms not exceeding- Three Days. 
 
 1 lb. of bread per diem. 
 
 Prisoners in Close Confinement for Prison Offences under the Provisions of the 42d section of the 
 
 Gaol Act. 
 
 
 
 
 Males. 
 
 
 
 Females. 
 
 
 Breakfast . - - 
 
 Oatmeal 
 
 gruel 
 
 . 
 
 1 pint 
 
 Oatmeal 
 
 gruel • 
 
 1 pint. 
 
 
 Bread - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 8 oz. 
 
 Bread 
 
 . 
 
 6 oz. 
 
 Dinner ... 
 
 Bread - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 8 oz. 
 
 Bread 
 
 . 
 
 6 oz. 
 
 Supper ... 
 
 Oatmeal 
 
 gruel 
 
 - 
 
 1 pint 
 
 Oatmeal 
 
 gruel 
 
 1 pint. 
 
 j> ... 
 
 Bread - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 8 oz. 
 
 Bread 
 
 . 
 
 6 oz. 
 
 Note. — The soup to contain, per pint, 3 ounces of conked meat, without bone, 3 ounces of 
 potatoes, one ounce of barley, rice, or oatmeal, and one ounce of onions or leeks, with pepper and 
 salt. The gruel to contain two ounces of oatmeal per pint. The gruel, on alternate days, to be 
 sweetened with g oz. of molasses or sugar, and seasoned with salt. In seasons when the potato crop 
 has failed, four ounces of split peas, made into a pudding, may be occasionally substituted ; but the 
 change must not be made more than twice in each week. Boys under 14 years of age to be placed 
 on the same diet as females. 
 
 10 December 1849. 
 
 This Dietary having been submitted to me, I hereby certify the same as proper to be adopted in 
 the Gaol for the county of Norfolk. 
 
 Whitehall, 27 April 1850. 
 
 G. Grey. 
 
 A
 
 REPORT. _ PKISON DISCIPLINE 
 
 Appendix. 1. 
 
 SECTION OF THE TREADWRliEJ- IN USE IN PETWORTH GAOL 
 DELIVERED IN BY \f. LINTON, ESQ., 30 ArKII. 1803. 
 
 (31) Ordered to be printed 12* March 1863. 
 
 Hervry HansardL PrurUer
 
 X
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 501 
 
 Appendix K. 
 
 PAPER furnished by James Anthony Gardner, Esq. 
 
 HEE MAJESTY'S GAOL, BRISTOL. 
 
 Description of a Person giving the Name of A. B. C. 
 
 -%« 
 
 Hair 
 Eyes 
 Face 
 Nose 
 
 Eyebroivs 
 
 Size of Photograph. 
 
 Weight_ 
 Hei(jht_ 
 Trade 
 
 Relig-ion_ 
 Born 
 
 Last Residence 
 
 Genekal Description and Appearance of Prisoner. 
 
 ^ Having reason to believe the above-named Prisoner has been previously conidcted, you will oblige by 
 informing me, at your earliest convenience, if is known in your neighbourhood ; if not, please send on to the 
 
 undermentioned places. 
 
 I am, Sir, 
 
 Your obedient Servant, 
 
 J. A. Gardner, 
 
 Governor. 
 Route from 
 
 1_^ 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 
 And then return to Bristol. 
 
 (37— App.) 
 
 3 r3
 
 502 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Views of Her Majesty's Gaol Chapel, Bristol, Designed and Built by the Governor, 
 Mri Gardner, who Erected the same by the Labour of the Prisoners, and paid the whole 
 Expense of the Building by the proceeds of their Industry. — See accompanying Diagram.
 
 V
 
 REPORT- PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 BKISTOL 
 
 PA' THE LABOUR OF TUK PKISO.XERS, AND VMD THF VrHOl.E EXTENSE 
 PROCEEDS OF THEIR INDUSTRY. 
 
 
 VIEW LOOKI NC WEST, 
 
 (37) — Ordered to te prmted 12 Marct 1863. 
 
 Henry Hansard. , Jointer .
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 503 
 
 Appendix L. 
 
 LETTER from Mr. Charles A. Keene to the Right Hon. the Earl of Carnarvon. 
 
 My Lord, Borough Gaol, Leeds, 5 May 1863. 
 
 I BEG leave respectfully to enclose a copy of the Diet Table in use in this prison, and to direct your Lordship's 
 attention to the rule marked with a cross. I would also inform your Lordship, that the number of prisoners who 
 were in receijit of extra diet on the 2d May inst. was six males and one female ; viz. — 
 
 4 males receiving 4 oz. of bread extra per diem. 
 1 - ditto - 5th class diet, in lieu of 3d class. 
 1 - ditto - 4th - ditto - .3d class. 
 
 1 female receiving 4th - ditto - 3d class. 
 
 All the prisoners having lost upwards of 6 lbs in their weight. 
 
 I have. Sec. 
 
 Charles A. Keene, Governor. 
 
 DIETARY— LEEDS BOROUGH GAOL, 1859. 
 
 Breakfast. 
 
 Each Morning. 
 
 Gruel, 1 pint. 
 
 Bread, 6 oz., 
 Gruel, 1 pint. 
 
 Bread, 6 oz., 
 Gruel, 1 pint. 
 
 Bread, 8 oz.. 
 Gruel, 1 pint. 
 
 Bread, 8 oz., 
 Giuel, 1 pint. 
 
 DINNERS. 
 
 Sunday. 
 
 Bread, 16 oz. 
 
 Bread, 8 oz.. 
 Rice, 6 oz.. 
 Treacle, 1 oz. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz.. 
 Cooked meat, 
 
 3oz., 
 Rice, 6 oz.. 
 Treacle, 1 oz. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz.. 
 Cooked meat, 
 
 3 oz., 
 Rice, 6 oz., 
 Treacle, 1 oz. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz. 
 Cooked meat, 
 
 4 oz.. 
 Rice, 6 oz.. 
 Treacle, 1 oz. 
 
 Monday. 
 
 Bread 16 oz. 
 Bread, 12 oz. 
 
 Bread, 8 oz., 
 Soup, 1 pint. 
 
 Bread, 8 oz., 
 Soup, 1 pint. 
 
 Bre.id, 4 oz., 
 Cooked meat, 
 
 4 oz. 
 Potatoes, 8 oz., 
 Soup, 3 pint. 
 
 Tuesday. 
 
 Bread, 16 oz. 
 
 Flour pudding, 
 Treacle, 1 oz. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz., 
 Flour pudding. 
 Treacle, 1 oz. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz.. 
 Cooked meat 
 
 3 oz. 
 Potatoes, 16 oz. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz.. 
 Cooked meat, 
 
 4 oz., 
 Potatoes, 16 oz. 
 
 TERMS OF IMPRISONMENT. 
 
 Not exceeding seven days. 
 
 Exceeding seven days and not exceeding one month . - . 
 
 Exceeding one month and not exceeding three months — Prisoners 
 for trial and for examination, and deserters awaiting an escort - 
 
 Exceeding three months and not exceeding six months 
 
 Prisoners who have completed six months of their sentence in 
 prison, and those under sentence of penal servitude. 
 
 Wednesday. 
 
 Bread, 16 oz. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz.. 
 Gruel, H pint. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz., 
 Irish stew, 1 
 pint. 
 
 Bread, 6 oz., 
 Irish stew, 1 
 pint. 
 
 Bread, 8 oz., 
 Irish stew, 1 
 pint. 
 
 Thursday. 
 
 Bread, 10 oz. 
 
 Bread, 8 oz. , 
 Rice, 6 oz.. 
 Treacle, 1 oz. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz.. 
 Cooked meat, 
 
 3 oz.. 
 Rice, 6 oz., 
 Treacle, 1 oz. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz.. 
 Cooked meat, 
 
 3 oz.. 
 Rice, 6 oz.. 
 Treacle, 1 oz. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz., 
 Cooked meat, 
 
 4 oz.. 
 Rice, 6 oz.. 
 Treacle, 1 oz. 
 
 Friday. 
 
 Bread, 16 oz. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz.. 
 Pease soup, 1 
 pint. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz.. 
 Pease soup, 1 
 pint. 
 
 Bread, G oz.. 
 Pease soup, 1 
 pint. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz., 
 Cooked meat, 
 
 4 oz., 
 Potatoes, 8 oz. 
 Pease soup, 5 pt. 
 
 Saturday. 
 
 Bread, 16 oz. 
 
 Flour pudding, 
 Treacle, 1 oz. 
 
 Bread, 4 oz , 
 Irish stew, 1 
 pint. 
 
 Bread, G oz., 
 Irish stew, 1 
 pint. 
 
 Bread, 8 oz., 
 Irish stew, 1 
 pint. 
 
 Suppers. 
 
 Each Evening. 
 
 Gruel, 1 pint. 
 
 Bread, C oz.. 
 Gruel, 1 pint. 
 
 Bread, 6 oz.. 
 Gruel, 1 pint. 
 
 Bread, 8 oz., 
 Gjmel, 1 pint. 
 
 Bread, 8 oz.. 
 Cocoa, 1 pt. 
 
 REMARKS. 
 
 Females, and boys under 14, of these classes to have 2 oz. bread less per day. 
 \. All prisoners of these classes employed at hard Labour to have 4 oz. cooked 
 meat and 1 lb. potatoes in place of flour pudding on Tuesday. 
 
 Females, and boys under 14, to have 2 oz. bread less per day. 
 
 X AH prisoners committed for longer terms of imprisonment than three months to commence with the Third Class diet, and rise to the several 
 classes as their periods of imprisonment increase. 
 
 Gruel to have 2 oz. oatmeal to the pint. Soup made of the liquor from the meat of the previous day, thickened with 1 oz. oatmeal and 4 oz. potatoes 
 or other vegetables to each pint. Pease soup to have G oz. peas and 4 oz. carrots per pint, seasoned with mint and other pot herbs. 
 
 Irish stew made of 3 oz. cooked meat on the Wednesday, and 4 oz. on Saturday, together with 16 oz. vegetables. Flour pudding, 8 oz. made into 
 1 quart. 
 
 Cocoa to be made of J oz. flaked cocoa and \ oz. treacle to the pint, with \ pint milk. 
 
 (37— App.) 
 
 3 r4
 
 504 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix M. 
 
 PAPER delivered in by Thomas Harpur Colvill, Esq., 7 May 1863. 
 
 MIDDLESEX. 
 
 HOUSE OF CORRECTION, COLDBATH FIELDS. 
 Dietary Table. 
 Male Prisoners. 
 
 
 FIRST CLASS. 
 
 SECOND CLASS. THIRD CLASS. 
 
 
 All Prisoners whose terms of Imprisonment 
 
 All Prisoners whose terms of Imprisonment exceed 
 
 Fourteen Days and under. 
 
 
 exceed Two Months. 
 
 14 Days, and do not exceed 2 Months. 
 
 DAYS. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Breakfast. 
 
 Dinner. 
 
 Supper, 
 
 Breaifast. 
 
 Dinner. 
 
 Sttjiper. 
 
 Breakfast. 
 
 Dinner. 
 
 Slipper. 
 
 
 -a 
 
 
 
 -a 
 
 <a 
 
 g 
 
 CO 
 
 
 OS 
 
 S 
 
 ca 
 
 3 
 
 -0 
 g 
 
 CQ 
 
 
 
 
 *a3 
 3 
 
 •a 
 
 
 i 
 
 '0 
 
 3 
 
 ■a 
 
 3 
 
 i 
 
 i 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 n 
 
 
 
 M 
 
 Id 
 
 u. 
 
 m 
 
 n 
 
 
 
 pq 
 
 a 
 
 m 
 
 rt 
 
 P< 
 
 03 
 
 C5 
 
 03 
 
 C3 
 
 M 
 
 o 
 
 P5 
 
 c 
 
 w 
 
 
 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Pint. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Pint. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Pint. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Pint. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Or. 
 
 P!«<. 
 
 Pint. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Pint. 
 
 Oz. 
 
 Pm<. 
 
 0.-. 
 
 Pf«/. 
 
 Oj. 
 
 Pm^ 
 
 Monday - 
 
 63 
 
 
 C5 
 
 6 
 
 8 
 
 
 6§ 
 
 
 63 
 
 
 65 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 I 
 
 6§ 
 
 i 
 
 6f 
 
 
 65 
 
 
 cs 
 
 i 
 
 Tuesday - 
 
 ^ 
 
 
 G5 
 
 6 
 
 S 
 
 - 
 
 6§ 
 
 
 63 
 
 
 63 
 
 6 
 
 8 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 6§ 
 
 A 
 
 6i 
 
 
 63 
 
 
 6J 
 
 i 
 
 Wednesday 
 
 e§ 
 
 
 c§ 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 li 
 
 63 
 
 
 cs 
 
 
 65 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 1 
 
 - 
 
 c§ 
 
 1 
 2 
 
 63 
 
 
 6i 
 
 
 63 
 
 * 
 
 Thursday - 
 
 65 
 
 
 63 
 
 « 
 
 8 
 
 - 
 
 6f 
 
 
 63 
 
 
 63 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 I 
 
 6f 
 
 i 
 
 65 
 
 
 c§ 
 
 
 Cf 
 
 i 
 
 Friday - 
 
 65 
 
 
 63 
 
 - - 
 
 li' 
 
 6i 
 
 
 6§ 
 
 
 6| 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 I 
 
 6| 
 
 i 
 
 63 
 
 
 c« 
 
 
 6i 
 
 i 
 
 Saturday - 
 
 cs 
 
 
 6? 
 
 6 
 
 8 
 
 - 
 
 63 
 
 
 63 
 
 
 63 
 
 6 
 
 8 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 63 
 
 i 
 
 cs 
 
 
 63 
 
 
 C5 
 
 ■} 
 
 Sunday • 
 
 Gs 
 
 
 f'3 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 1^ 
 
 63 
 
 
 63 
 
 
 Ǥ 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 1 
 
 - 
 
 6i 
 
 1 
 
 6f 
 
 
 6i 
 
 
 G3 
 
 i 
 
 Total - - 
 
 •165 
 
 
 IC§ 
 
 24 1 32 
 
 1 
 
 •li 
 
 46§ 
 
 
 46s 
 
 
 4GJ 
 
 12 
 
 IG 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 4Gf 
 
 3J 
 
 4G5 
 
 
 4Gf 
 
 / 
 
 4GJ 
 
 3.J 
 
 Boys under 16 have only 5J ozs. of bread each meal.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OV PRISON DISCIPLINE. 505 
 
 Appendix N. 
 
 PAPERS furnished by Edward Smith, Esq., M.D., LL.B., F.R.S. 
 
 ANALYSIS OF REPLIES. 
 
 8 -rr 
 
 Tread-wheel labour, the sole punishment, in g-^ gaols : viz. Northallerton, Warwick, Rut- Appendix N. 
 land, "VValsingham, Spilsby, Canterbury, Huntingdon, and Cornwall. 
 
 35 
 
 With other j)unishments, in ^.. 
 
 13 
 
 Productive, in - ., so far as stated. 
 
 Crank, alone, in 3, as a hard-labour crank or pump. 
 Witli treadwheel labour, 20, used as pumps. 
 With other labour, 14. 
 As hand grinding mills, 3. 
 Women work them, 1 — Carlisle. 
 
 .S'Aoi: drill, 2. 
 
 Thus 
 
 Oakum-pichiiiij, 27. 
 
 Thus, — some instrument of punishment. 
 
 Trades, 40. 
 
 Both associated, 23. 
 
 Trades, repairs of l)uildings and clothing, making clothing, mats, rugs, matting, ropes, 
 shoes and linen, hair-picking, tarring. 
 
 Stone-breaking, exclusively, 1 — Flint. 
 
 Witii otlier occu])ation, 10 — Peml)roke, Montgomerj-, Swansea, Cardigan, 
 Brecon, Stafford, Somerset, Momnouth, Ivirton-in-Lindsey, Cumberland. 
 
 Pounding gyjisum, and grinding pepper, rice, §-c., 1 — Abingdon. 
 
 These trades, without hard-lahour instruments (or nearly so), 6 — Durham, Tynemouth, 
 Ipswich, Wakefield, Anglesey, and Flint. 
 
 Earnestly seek to make them remunerative — Dui'ham, Wakefield, &c. 
 
 Hard labour, carried out h\ instruction — Reading, 1. 
 
 Plan puesuep. 
 
 Treadwheel and crank, reserved for short sentences, and manufacturing for long ones — 
 
 Bedford, 1. 
 Witli stone-breaking added to treadwheel and crank — Derljy, Northampton, 
 
 Lewes, 3. 
 All wf)rk treadwheel at first, and tlien employed in trade — Worcester, Salford 
 
 and Ciiester, 3. 
 All al)lc-bodied work treadwheel and crank, and only others follow trades — 
 
 Dorset, ^Maidstone, Loutli. Spalding, Southwell. Salop, Somerset, Bury St. 
 
 Edmund's, Becclcs, Beverlc}-, Cardifij ^lontgomery, and Pembroke, 13. 
 Treadwlieel for prison oflx^nces and incorrigible offenders onlj- — Taunton. 
 Women work '•' a light, Init wearying pump" — Taunton. 
 Crank onlv for second and tliird offences, refractory- paupei's, and assaults — 
 
 Staff;. rd." 
 Crank for vagrants only — Southwell. 
 
 Grinding mill, those unfit to work the treadwheel — Dorset Castle. 
 
 (37— Apr.) 3 S Oakum-
 
 506 
 
 APPKXDIX TO REPOKT FROM THE 
 
 Appendix N. Oakum-piching, is not hard labour, 2 — Horsley and Cardiff. 
 
 The emplovment of invalids only — Sjialdinij;-. 
 
 Of all prisoners one hour licfore breakfast — Taunton. 
 To old offenders only, and trades for first convictions — Ipswich. 
 AV'ith trades, of all during one part of the day — Salop. 
 
 With stone-breaking to those reduced in strength from using the trcadwhecl 
 and other causes — C'arditran. 
 
 ShoemakiiHi aial taUoriiif/, only those who had previously learnt them — Beccles. 
 
 Repairs of prison, only those of good character — Maidstone. 
 
 Houus OF Employment. 
 
 (Only stated in a few Replies. ) 
 
 All available liours — Exeter. 
 
 Trend-irhrel and crank, 1 hour at a time, and 3 hours daily, but required only as exer- 
 cise — .Sj)ringfield. 
 
 Tn-ad-irhei'l, J hour on, \ hour off, 7 J liours together daily — Coldbath-field.s. 
 12 mius. on, 4 niins. off — New Bailev. 
 
 6 „ 6 ., 1 r' * 1. " 
 
 r Lanterburv. 
 
 li 
 
 6 
 
 2i) 
 
 „ 10 
 
 5 
 
 „ 10 
 
 during 10 hours — Falklngham. 
 „ during 7| hours — Northallerton. 
 
 Trades irnrhi'd in separate cells, two hours longer than working the treadwhcel — 
 Beverley. 
 
 Pnmj>s, 30 mins. on, .5 mins. off, for four hours — Salop. 
 
 Oalnun-piehin;!, 1 hour in the morning, and 1 hour in evening (7 to 8), with treadwhcel, 
 8 hours during the day — Somerset. 
 
 Additional Remakes. 
 
 Abingdon - 
 Brecon 
 ]Mor[)eth 
 Coldbatli-flch 
 Leicester - 
 Pembroke - 
 
 Preston 
 
 Dia-ii 
 
 Monmouth • 
 
 Treadwhcel discontinued 14 years. 
 
 Trcadwhecl just discontinued. 
 
 One of two treadwheels discontinued. 
 
 Discontinued cranks ; use treadwhcel profitably now. 
 
 Well satisfied with the treadwhcel. 
 
 " The treadwhcel is tKe very best system of hard labour that can be 
 adopted." 
 
 " I am no advocate for useless ci-ank labour, Init for low dietary and 
 st.o])pages of food for all prison ofl'ences ; these, combined with edu- 
 cation, are, I humbly believe, better for all purposes than that horrid, 
 associated, and villauous ' getting up-stairs.' " 
 
 Thinks the use of the trcadwhecl very objectionable ; many prisoners 
 arc unfit for it, whilst those confined in cells find it a relaxa- 
 tion, lie commends the establishment of large district jirisons, with 
 land and factories attaclied, and 12 hours' work continuousiy, with 
 the exception of one hour for dinner. 
 
 Prisoners do less work and live better than labourers. Tiie term 
 " hard labour" should be exchanged for " compulsory labour."
 
 SELECT COMMiTtteE ON miSOX BlSCirLINE. 
 
 507 
 
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 SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 509 
 
 
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 SKLECT COMMITTKE ON TKISON DISCIPLINK. 
 
 511 
 
 Appendix N. 
 
 By Dr. Ed>vahd SJ^ITH, f.r.s. 
 
 Calculation of the quantity of nutritive elements (carbon and nitrogen) afforded by the 
 diet in Military Prisons, as reported on page 12 of " Report on Military Prisons," 
 1859 and 1860. 
 
 Ordinary. 
 
 Oatmeal 
 Indian meal 
 Bread 
 
 Milk - 
 
 Carbon (grains). 
 
 Nitrogen (grains). 
 
 Dally 
 
 - 1,400 
 
 - 1,575 
 
 997 
 819 
 
 4,791 
 
 70 
 67 
 45 
 65 
 
 247 
 
 
 After 56 Days. 
 
 
 Carbon (grains). 
 
 Oatmeal 
 
 . 1,750 
 
 Indian meal 
 
 - 2,040 
 
 Bread 
 
 997 
 
 Milk - 
 
 819 
 
 
 Daily - - 5,G06 
 
 Nitrogen (grains). 
 
 87 
 90 
 45 
 65 
 
 287 
 
 The quantity of carbon and nitrogen eaten by the Lancashire operatives at the present 
 time is 4,588 and 215 grains by the men, 3,758 and 155 grains by the women. The 
 average minimum amount which should be supplied is 4,.300 and 200 grains to the men, 
 and one-tenth less to the women. 
 
 (37— Apr.) 
 
 3s4
 
 512 
 
 APPENDIX :— SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 
 
 Appendix O. 
 
 House of Correction, Coldbath Fields, 12 May 186.3. 
 
 ■ Retdrn showing the Results of Monthly Weighing of Prisoners who had not been weighed for 
 
 Six Months. 
 
 Date. 
 
 Number 
 Gained. 
 
 Lbs. 
 Gained. 
 
 Number 
 Lost. 
 
 Lbs. 
 Lost. 
 
 Greatest 
 Gain (lbs.) 
 
 Greatest 
 Loss (lbs.) 
 
 No 
 Change. 
 
 Total 
 Weighed. 
 
 1863: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 January 
 
 19 
 
 131 
 
 20 
 
 103 
 
 18 
 
 14 
 
 1 
 
 40 
 
 Febraary 
 
 11 
 
 Gl 
 
 •23 
 
 171 
 
 9 
 
 19 
 
 1 
 
 35 
 
 Marcli 
 
 19 
 
 99 
 
 39 
 
 10 
 
 18 
 
 2.5 
 
 3 
 
 61 
 
 .^pril - 
 
 8 
 
 3-2 
 
 31 
 
 234 
 
 IG 
 
 19 
 
 1 
 
 40 
 
 May - 
 
 10 
 
 82 
 
 3i 
 
 304 
 
 14 
 
 30 
 
 2 
 
 51 
 
 Thomas H. CoM/l, Governor.
 
 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LIBRARY 
 
 Los Angeles 
 
 This book is DUE on the last date stamped below. 
 
 KtU'O UKL-LU 
 
 VfP J 9'f-fQ 
 
 FEB 31968 
 
 Form L9-Series 444 
 
 University Research Library 
 
 I 
 
 \
 
 D 000 018 846 6
 
 R E P R 
 
 FROM THE 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE 
 
 ON THE 
 
 PRESENT STATE OF DISCIPL 
 MD HOUSES OF COEE 
 
 TOGETHER WITH THE 
 
 PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMI' 
 
 MINUTES OF EVID 
 
 AND APPENDIX. 
 
 1863. 
 
 (37.) 
 
 /