%?~ ~~      (~`~~f
~~
~F ~IIE
%~T)J~!~5%ffiVft COMMTSSi~X
77
APPOINTED TO INVE~TIGATE TIlE AFFAIR~
OF TIlE
I~ED CLOUb INDIAN AGENCY,
JULY, 1S7~
TOGETlIER WITIl
111k Tk\?TIMO\I' A~I) A~~O)'I?~~YI~~ DO~iJMt'~~S
WASllINC;TON:
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE.
1875. 
I ~?$ 
ORGANIZATION OF THE CO~[MISSION.
LL'TTERS OF APPOINTMENT AND INSTRUCTION.
Secretary Delano to Hon. Clinton B. F~sk.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,
~tashiflgtofl, 1). C., May 10, 1875.
SIR: I am desirous of appointing a commission from the members of
your Board to investigate certain reports put in circulation by a Mr.
~Iarsh relative to the Indian service at the Red Cloud agency, and I
write to you to request that you will consult with your Board and name
to me such members of it as may be designated to make the investiga.
tion.
It would be well to bave tbe commission consist of three members.
Should you be unable to designate them from your Board, will you do
me the favor to recommend some other suitable persons as commissioners ~ I desire to have the commission named by yoursdf, or the Board
of which you are president.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
C.DELANO,
Secretary.
llon. CLINTON B. FIsK,
President Board India ~~ Co n~ nz iss ion ers, Saint Lou is, fIlo.
4gei~ t S(~ r ilic to Co)))))) 55i0) C)' Sfl~ itli.
N\TAsHINGToN CITY, JllflC 5, 1875.
SIR: My attention has been called to statements of Professor Marsh,
regarding qualities of supplies furnished and management of affars at
Red Cloud agency, which reflect both on my ability as an agent and
honor as a man, and al~o involve others, both in and out of the Department.  I have awaited a time, thinking this to be one of the usual
effervescences of the moment, but it is pushed with a persistence and
malignance that c~l]s for an official notice from me.  I have not seen
fl~e statement of Professor Marsh as first published, but know of it
only from ext~acts that I have in the papers aud have derived from
personal conversatioii with him.
In the month of November, 1874, Professor Marsit visited Red Cloud
agency on a scientific mission; while there, it appears from his statement, he received from Red Cloud and Red Dog, two chiefs at the agency,
certain samples of unmerchantable provisions, which the chiefs claimed
were procured at the Indian lodges, arid were fair samples of the provisions issued to the Indians at tlie agency, and desired him to deliver
the same to the President on his return; that four months later he delivered the samples to the Board of Indian Commissioners at New York 
Iv
I have the honor to inform the Commissioner that when I took charge
of the agency there was some damaged flour 01) hand, and the Indians
may have taken their sample from this; that the other supplies were
pronounced of a better quality than were ordinarily furnished; that the
flour issued at the time of the Professor's visit was of good quality; and
it would have been only justice to the agent for the Professor to have
compared his samples with the goods in the warehouse for issi~e, and
either corroborate the statement of the Indians or vindicate the agent.
This he had ample opportunity to do had he so desired, and at the time
of his visit two otber gentlemen went through the warehouse with Red
Cloud and examined all the stores, which Red Cloud pronounced better
than they bad ever had before.  I positively affirm that, with the exception of the damaged flour at. the agency when I took charge, I have
never received or issued any an merchantable supplies. The flour furnished by the Department, though not as light as ordinary flour, is
sweet, and no cause of complaint among the Indians.  The inferior cattle shown to Professor Marsh and General Bradley were, two of them,
rejected; the balance were left from the receipts of several hundred,
and were run down from some cause, and ]eft to recruit on the range.
I have the honor to request the Commissioner to investigate the
charges of Professor Marsh against me, and will furnish any inform ation in my power. I expect to be able to fully vindicate iny official conduct and honor as a man, and, if successful, propose to retire from the
service.
~~ery respectfully, your obediei~t servant,
J.J. SAVILLE,
Un itc(l States 1 udian A gen t.
Hon. i~. P. SMITll,
Comnzissioner of Indian A~'a irs.
F. II. Smith to the Secretary of tl~e Interior.
BOARD OF INDIAN COMMISSIONERS,
Washington, 1). C., June 22, 1875.
SIR: I am iJi receipt of a telegram from llon. Clinton B. Fisk, chairman of this Board, requesting a statement of the charges made against
the administration of the Red Cloud agency by Professor Marsh.
If not already in writing, General Fisk desires me to request you to
obtain specific written charges from Professor Marsh, to enable the
commission to be appoiiited to enter upon an iiitelligeiit investigation
of the same.
Your early attention is respectfiilly requested.
Very r%~pectfnlly, your obedient servant,
F. II. SMITll,
Secretary.
Hon. SECRETARY OF TRE INTERIOR.
F. 11. Smith to Secretary 1)ela~to.
BOARD OF INDIAN COMMISSIONERS,
Washington, 1). C., June 24, 1875.
SIR: I am iii receipt of a telegram and letter from llon. C. B. Fisk,
of the 23d instant, designating, in accordance with your request, as 
V
members of a commission to investigate certain charges of a Mr. Marsh,
relative to the character of supplies at the Red Cloud agency, llon. A.
II. Bullock, of ~Vorcester, Mass.; llon. Thos. C. Fletcher, Saint Louis,
Mo.; and Lion. George ~V. Lane, of New York City, and to request their
appointment by you as`nembers of such commissioii.
I have also the honor, by request of General Fisk, to renew that application, that you cause formal written charges, coverilig the proposed
matters of investigation, to be made.
Very respectfully, your obedient servaiit,
F.II. SMITfl,
Secretary.
llon. C. J)ELANO,
Secretary of tlte Interior.
See~~etary I)ela ito to Cont flt i88 ioner Sin ith.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,
~Vashington, June 24, 1875.
SIR: Oii the 1()th`iltimo, I addressed a letter to Lion. Clinton B. Fisk,
chairznan Board of Indian Commissioners, requesting that be would
name the persons who should constitute a commission to investigate
the administration of Indian affairs at the Red Cloud agency.
A copy of said letter is herewith iuclosed.
1 am advised by letter, of this date, from F. II. Smith, secretary of
the Board of Indian Commissioiiers, (copy inclosed,) that the followingnamed persons have been designated by the chairman of the Board to
make said investigation:
llon. A. II. Bullock, NYorcester, Ma ss.; Lion. Thos. C. Fletcher, Saint
Louis, Mo.; and Lion. Ceo. ~V. Laije, New York City; and they are hereby
appointed special commissioners for the purpose named.
You are requested to prepare, aiid submit for approval, the instructions necessary for their guidance.
Their compensafio~ will be eight dollars per day, each, in addition to
their actual expenses.
~Tery respectfully, & c.,
C.DELANO,
Secretary.
The COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Coiitnti~sioiter Smith to floit. A. II. B~lloek aitd oth~r Coinnti~sioiten~.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,
OFFICE OF INDIAN AFFAIRS,
~Ita8hjngtofl, 1). C., July 1, 1875.
GENTLEMEN: Oii the nomination of the chairman of the Board of
Indian Commissioners, at the request of the Secretary of the Interior,
you have been appointed by him a commission to investigate the affairs
of the Red Cloud agency.
ilie occasion for such investigation has mainly originated in statemeats made by Mr. 0. C. Marsh, professor in Sheffield Scientific School,
Yale College, concerning matters which he observed while at the agency 
VI
during November last.  As yet these statements have no definite form
known to the Office, other than as they have appeared in the public press,
and as made verbally by Mr. Marsh to myself.
In the latter part of March last Professor Marsh brought to me certain samples of tobacco, and flour, and sugar, which he said he' did in
accordaiice with a promise made to Red Cloud, in consideration of a
promise by Red Cloud to procure all entrance for him into the Black
Hills country for scientific purposes.  He stated that, in a private interview with Red Cloud, that Indian chief complained very bitterly of
his agent in many respects, and earnestly desired a change, and that he
had given him these as samples of the supplies which he was receiving
from Government.  He also stated that the beef-cattle issued to the Indians were small in size, and otherwise of inferior character; an d that
there was much confusion in agency m~tters, especially in the issning of
a large amount of goods in a single ~lay.  Professor Marsh expressed
his belief that there might have been an excha~~ge of articles purchased
for the Indians for others of inferior quality while en route between
Cheyenne and the agency.  He also state~l that his views as to agency
affairs were confiriiied by conversations with other persons around the
agency.
Professor Marsh stated that he had not taken any measures to satisfy
himself that the samples given to him by Red Cloud were fair samples
of the supplies which were then being issued, and could not say, from
his own observation, that they were fair samples; but that, on one
occasion, when a sack of flour had fallen from  an Indian woman's
arms and broken open, he saw tlie color of the flour as it lay upon the
ground, and thought it not much different from the sample furnished
by Red Cloud, but, not being a judge of flour, he could not make the
comparison with any degree of accuracy.  The san~ples refi~rred to
Professor Marsh did not leave with me, ai~d it is presunied that he has
them still in his possession.
His other statements in regard to agency affairs are of a still more
indefinite character.
In an interview subsequently held with the honorable. Secretary of
the Interior, Professor Marsh was invited by him to reduce his statements of frauds or irregalanties iii the Indi'~n service to writing, in
such form as would best aid in their iiivestigatiou.  To this request
Professor Marsh has not yet responded, nor has he dedined it.  I have
this day notified him of your aI)poiiitment, and again requested him to
furnish such statements or suggesfions as may aid in fiiidii~g tlie facts
as to the administration of Red Cloud age ii cv.
If, however, Professor Marsh  shoul~l sti1l decline to furi~ish such
assistance, it is the desire of the honorable Secretary tl~at you proceed
in the investigation and avail yourselves of all the meaiis that can be
found, after arrivilig upoii tlie ground, or before, to learii the state of
affairs; and that you will, without fear or fitvor, ilivestigate all matters
pertaining to that age~Icy so thoionglily as to satisf~ yourselves beyoiid
a doubt as to flicts, llI)011 which you will make a clear report relative
to its past and present cotidition a'~d 11)aliagelneiit, with such recommendatioiis as will enable the 1)eI)'irtme~jt to take proper action iii the
premises.
You will undoubtedly meet with persons of strong partisan feelings
enlisted both for and against the a(linii~istration of the I)rese'it agent;
~iid as you proceed you will become flilly aware of the misrepresentations which such partisanship naturally produces, and the extreme dif 
VII
ficulty of discovering the truth amid the conflicting statements and
allegation S.
N\~hile guarding against giving undue weight to accusations which
origin ate in malice and suspicion only, you will not hesitate to probe
all questions to the bottom, and bring to light any official neglect or
fraudulent or unfair transactions of any kind or degree, by whomsoever committed.  A copy of Agent Saville's letter requesting such
investigation is herewith furnished for your information {page iii;j also
a full report of the councils beld with Red Cloud and a delegation of the
cbiefs and headmen of Red Cloud agency at the Department of the
interior, May 2S and June 5.  [Appendix.]
At Cheyenne you will find C. II. Bostwick, the store-keeper of the
Government warehouse; also Mr. Long, the inspector of the flour and
the supplies which have been shipped from Cheyenne to Red Cloud
agency during the year. You are also requested while in the indiau
country to make such observations pertaining to Indian affairs ~enerally at Red Cloud agency as will be of assistauce to the administration
of the indian Bureau.
Of this commission the lion. A. II. Bullock, of ~Yorcester, ~~ass.,
is the chairman, froin whom you will receive notice of tlie time of proceeding to Cheyenne.  Your compensation, while actnally engaged in
this service, will be at the rate of $8 i~er day, in addition to your necessary and actual traveling expenses.  One of the inclosed requisitions
for transportation will be honored by the ticket-agent of tlie Union
Pacific Railroad at Omaba, and the other on your return at Cheyenne.
The weekly stage at Laramie en route to Red Cloud, leaves Cheyenne
on Monday, early in the day.
Yonr attention is called to tbe circular-letter of the honorable
Second Comptroller of February 26, 1875, and to Department cirenlar
of July 1, 1874, for information as to requirements in settling your accounts for expenses.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
BDW. P. SMITfi.
T() the lioN. A. II. BULLOCK, ~~orcester, Mass.; GEO. NN~. LANE, New
York City; THoMAs~C. FLETCHER, Saint Louis, Mo.
Co?J~))? is~ioi~er Sniith to J)rofessor i~T(~rsIi.
DEFARTMENT OF THE iNTERIOR,
OFFICE OF INDIAN AFFMRs,
~~a~hingto~t, ~. C., July 1, 1875.
SiR: At the request of the honorable Secretary of the interior, the
Board of indian Commissioners have nominated as a committee to investigate affairs at Red Cloud agency lion. A. II. Bullock, of Worcester, ~iass., lion. Thomas C. 1'letcher, of Saint Louis, ~1o., and lion. G.
W. Lane, of the Chamber of Commerce in New York City, and it is understood that these gentlemen have accepted the service to which they
have been invited.
in preparing instructions for their guidance I have not been able to
furnish them your complaints against the Red Cloud agency administration except in a geiieral way as detailed to me by yourself at several
interviews, but I have informed them of the request of the Secretary
that you will reduce these complaints to a written statement, to be ac 
VIII
comp~iiied with such proofs and suggestions as to reliable sources of
evidence as will aid in securing a thorough investigation.
I l~ave also informed them of the appointment and purpo~e of this
commission and of my intentioii to renew the request, heretofore made
by the honorable Secretary, that you will now furnish the said written
statement making the charges as specific and furnishing evidence as
inucl~ in detail as possible; or, if you are not prepared to do this, that
you will, in any way most agreeable to yourself, make known in a definite form your impressions and views respecting Indian affairs as resultjug from yonr personal observation while in the Indian country.  I make
this request of you in the belief that you caii have no other desire in
this matter than that the interests and rights both of the Indians and
of the Government may be protected, and I desire to renew the assurance heretofore given you that it is th~e sincere wish and purpose of the
Department to prevent frauds as far as possible an~l to omit no eflbrt to
discover them when perpetrated, and in all respects to bring the Ijidian
service to the highest possible standard of humai~ity and strict integrity.
Vei~v respectfully,
EDWD. p. SMITll,
Con~ )~~ i~~ioner.
Piof. 0. C. MAE Sll,
I~1c Scientific School, A~~c Jlaren, CO)~)~.
(~on~n~is~io)~ci Sn~ith to Itoj~. I. 6~ 1'1ctchc?~.
DEPARTMENT OF iRE INTERIOR,
OFFICE OF JNDIAN AFFAIRS,
l1~shington, I). C., J~q~ 14, 1S75.
DEAR SIR: P~eferring to i~y communication furnishing instructions
to the commission appointed by the llon. Secretary of the Interior to
investigate affairs at I~ed Cloud agency, I have further to advise you
that, owing to the declinature of lion. A. II. Bullock, of Massachusetts,
and George ~T Lane, of New York, to serve upon this commission, lion.
B. N\T liarris, of East Bridgewater, Mass., and C. J. Faulkner, of Martinsburgh, ~V. Va., have been appointed in their stead upon this commission, and you are named as the chairman by the lion. Secretary of
the Interior.  I understand from General Fisk, chairman of the Board
of Indian Commissioners, npon whose nomination this commission has
been made up, that it is arranged for the preliminary meeting of the
commission to be held at the Fifth Avenue liote], New York City, on
the evening of the 19th instant, and it is to be hoped that the comm ission will start N\~est immediately to enter upon the discharge of their
duties.  The other members of the commission have been iiotifled today of their appointment and of this preliminary meeting to be held on
the 19th instant.
~~ery respectfully, your obedient servant,
ED~~. P. SMITll,
CO??tfl~ issioner.
lio~~. T. C. FLETCllER,
Soint Lo~f is, 3~o. 
Ix
~ecreU~ry De1~~~~o tu JIO)~. T. e. Fletcher a~~d othe~- Coinntissioners.
DEPAR~TMENT OF TllE INiERIOR,
~~~hington, 1). C., July 20, 1875.
GENTLL'MEN: I have just received a l)au~phlet indorsed "A statement of affairs at ~ed Clou(l agency, iuade to the President of the
United States by Prof 0. C. Marsh," oil the ~utside of which is an in(~orseineiit iii writing as follows: " To the lion. Coltii~bns Delano, %vith
kind regards ~f the anUtor."  I iiiclose this communication for your use
ajid considerati~~n during tli~ di~charge of your duties, with the following observatioiis.
~Iy attention having been ~lirecte~I to so inc iie~vspaper articles reflectlug npoii the maiiageinent of aff~irs at tlie Red Cloud agency, and
basing such reflectioiis upon reports from Professor Marsh, I addressed
a communication to the Board of Indian Commissiongrs, copy of which
is here inclosed, marked "A," [i)age iii,1 on tlie 10th day of May last,
requesting them to select suitable persoiis to investigate such charges
ind complaints.
As soon as I received informatioii froin the Board of Indian Coin mis.
sioners that they liad selected tlie ~~ersons to make such examination, I
caused the persons so selected to be appointed, aiid directed the Coinmissioner of Indian Affairs to make oiit instructioiis for their guidance,
and to inform Professor Marsh of their appoiiitment, and request from
liim such information aiid facts withiii liis knowledge as it might be
desirable or necessary that the commission should possess, together
with such detailed statements of complaiiits as he felt authorized to
make against the agelit at the Red Cloud agency, and such proofs as it
might be in his power to furiiish in sup~)ort of such coinplaiiits.  On the
1st day of July the Coiiimissioner of Iii~tian AffLirs addressed Professor
~Iarsh a letter, of which I inclose a copy, marked "B," [p2ge vii.j  Professor Marsh has made no communicatioii to the Coniini~siouei of Indian
Affairs in reply to this letter.  lle has iiever made aily communication
to me, and I have iiever received anything froin him to iny knowledge,
excel)t the statement which I now inclose and which I received this
m oriiing.
You will observe that there are two letters in the pamphlet, both addressed to the Pi~sideiit of the United States, and both dated "Yale
College, July 10, 1875."  Both of these a~~peared in the columns of the
New York Tn bane, as I aiii iii!brmed, before they were received by the
President.
The first time that I inet Professor Marsh was during tlie council of
the Sioux Iiidiaiis in this city, in May l;tst, and after macli had been
said in the public prints in refereiice to liis complaints regarding the Red
Cloud agency, when, beiiig informed that he was in the room (it one of
these meetings, and beiiig desirous to learn from lii in what he knew on
the subject refrrred to, I made myself known to hi in and requested liim
to call upon me.  Subsequently he came to my office, aiid during that
interview I earnestly requested hint to fiiriiisli me with such information
as he had, and with all the proofs that he could refer to, agaiiist the
agent at Red Cloud; which he dedined to do.  General Laton, Cominiss~oner of Education, was preseiit during this iiiterview, and I shall endeavor to obtain from him a letter referring to it:  I have now stated, I
think coricetly, m~ entire interconise with Professor Marsh, and have
referred to all that has ever transpired between us, either orally or in
writing.
I need not express to your coin mission my desire for a full and candid 
X
examination and report in regard to affairs at t?ed (~loud agency; but
as Professor ~Iarsh has seen fit to make insinuations, if not charges,
against me, and certainly against my sincerity in reference to my desire
to have this investigation made, and as he has also seen fit to prefer
charges against the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, may I not beg of
your commission, while in the discharge of its other duties, a careful
examination of these charges and insinuations, so far as they affect the
Commissioner or myself, and may I express my desire that your report
will be clear and explicit on these subjects, and such as the evideiice and
the facts, aft~'r full investigation, may require.
I have the hoiior to be, very respectfully, your ol~edient servant,
C. J)ELANO,
Secretary.
llous. Til. C FLETellEP,
BENJ. ~T llAi~RIs and
CHARLES J. FAvLKNER,
Cornmi~sioners to Bxa~nine Affairs qt Ped Cloztd Agency.
Seeret~ry 1)elano to lion. 1'. C. Fletcher c~nd 0th C) Con~~)~issio)~ers.
1)EPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,
~Vashington, 1) C., July 28, 1875.
GENTLE~iEN: A communication which I had the honor to address to
you on the 20th instant contains the following paragraph, wherein Professor Marsh is alluded to, viz: "Subsequetitly he caine to my office,
and during that interview I earnestly requested him to furnish me with
such itiformation as he had, and with all the proofs that he could refer
to, against the agent at i?ed Cloud; which he dedined to do.  General
Eaton, Commissioner of Education, was present during this interview,
and I shall endeavor to obtain from him a letter referring to it."
I have this day received a letter, dated the 22d instaiit, from General
Eaton, in response to a letter of inquiry addressed to him on the 19th
instant in relation to the subject, which is herewith communicated for
yonr itiformation.  It is as follows, viz:
LEPAItTMENT OF TilE INTFRtOE
BUREAU Ol? EDUCATION,
rJ'asliington, D. C., J1~Iy 22, 1875.
DEAR StE: Yours of the 19th instaat is received. I have only seen the telegraphic report
of Protbssor ~Iarsh's charges, and was very much surprised at them, especially in view of
what I witnessed duritig ilie conversation which occurred in my presence in your room as I
hap~~ened there on btisiiiess.  You called his attention to the fact that lie did not give you
his statement when he first saw the Commissioner arid the President; and that he had been
in town again so lung at tlie time of this talk arid passed you by without giving them to yoii, or
putting them before you in form for investigation.  Re replied that lie only intended to keep
bis promise to Red Cloud that lie was not familiar with the forms of Government business,
and that if he had committed an error in this respect he begged your pardoii.  In reply
to your reminder that b~ had not furnished them to you during the days ho liad been in
to~~n immediately preceding this interview, he stated that lie had been overpressed with sci
entific work. You assured hi iii that,so far as you were personally concerned, you only wished
to be treated as he would wish to be hiniself under siniilar circumstances, and eartiestly dosired him to niake full and explicit          of       gel to you and to cite all tie proofs
~hich lie ~as infornied, that statements his char
of                      they might he laid hefoie the commission to in~ estigate the
Red Cloud agency. He said he bad not put theni in shape, but would do it, and should want
full opportunity to present them hefore the commission a~id to be~present as the testimony
was taken.  Re ieteiied to some of tlie paiticulars connected with his observations, and
said that the evidence was abundant to substantiate all that lie liad said.  You still urged
that lie should furnish liis statements to you in form for use before the commission of inves 
XI
tigation. He hesitated, and you assured him that every opportunity should be afforded him to
testify, or to call witnesses or examine them; that you wanted to know the truth, and that
only as you knew the truth could you administer the difficult service justly and honestly as
you desired; that you was the one specially charged with this responsibility; and that if
information went everywhere else, and not to you, you could not discharge your duty as you
sought to do. To enforce your idea, I recollect that you supposed a case of irregularity in
college, and called his attention to the fact that the information upon which correction should
he based must be made known to the responsible officer or head; so in Indian affairs, information of irregularities should be brought to you.
You stated to him emphatically that no one could be more interested than you were in
en towing honesty and justice in the Indian service, and urged him to assist you, and see if
this was not done.  He in no way intimated, a 5 he now does in these charges, that you
were disindined to punish frauds when they became known to you.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
JOlIN EATON.
Hon. C. DET.ANo,
Secrctary of Interior, fl~askington, D. C.
I have the honor to be, very respectfully, your~obedient servant,
C. DELANO,
Secretary.
llons. T. C. FLETCHER,
BENJ. W. llARRIs, and
CHAs. J. FAULKNER,
Cont~~tissioners to ~xanii~~e I~tdian 4~ffairs at the I?ed C10U(~ Agency.
Be pleased to acknowledge the receipt of this communication by telegraph and by mail.
C. D.
Secretary Delano to Senator lIowe and Professor Atlterton.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,
~~ashington, I). C., July 30, 1875.
GENTLEMEN: I am directed by tlie President to inform you th~t in
consequence of various reports, indefinite in their character, of irregularity in the administration of Indian affairs at the Red Cloud agency,
published in tl~e public prints on information furnished by Prof. 0.
C. Marsh, the Secretary of the Interior, by letter, dated the 10th May
last, addressed to the llon. Clinton B. Fisk, chairman of the Board of
Indian Commissioners, requested that Board to designate suitable persons as commissioners to investigate the reports referred to.  A copy of
said letter is herewith, marked "A," [p2ge iii. ]
On the 24th June, ultimo, the Board, through its secretary, in a letter
addressed to this Department, communicated the names of the persons
designated as commissioners to make the investigation, and requested
that the Department cause formal written charges embracing proposed
matters to be investigated.  Copy of letter herewith, marked "B,"
[p2ge iv.i
On thtf same day, 24th June, a copy of the letter of the Board of that
date was transmitted to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, with directions to i~repare the necessary instructions for the guidance of the
coinniissioiiers.  Copy herewith, marked "C," [p2ge v.]
On the 1st instant, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs submitted
letters of instructions for the guidance of the commission, which were,
on the sait~e day, approved and returned to that officer.  Copy of letter
and instructions herewith, marked "D," [p2ge v.]
As tfre Department had not received any definite information as to
the nature of the complaints referred to, tlie Commissioner of Indian
Affairs was instructed to request Professor Marsh to state, in writing, 
XII
any cbar~es that the evideijce in his 1)055C55i0D might justify, with a
view to their thorough investigatioli.
A copy of the letter of the Commissioner of indian Affairs to Professor Marsh, asking for a written statement, making specific charges and
furnishing evidence in detail, is herewith enclosed, dated July 1, and
marked "E,'~ [p2ge vii.1
Never having seen Professor Marsh, and learning Lhat he was in the
city, in May last, and was frequently preseiit ~t councils held with the
Sioux indians, 1 took occasion, Upon his being pointed out to me, to introduce niyself to him and to request that he would call upon me at my
office.  A few days later be called on me and 1 earnestly requested that
he would submit his charges to me in writing.  He positively declined
to comply with my request. General John Eaton, Commissioner of Education, was present at this iuterview, and his recollections of the conversation with Professor Marsh are contained in a letter, copy herewith,
dated the 22d July, marked "F," [p2ge x.]
After the instructions, prepared for the commissioiiers to investigate
affairs at the Red Cloud agency, bad been forwarded to them, I received
from tlie President a letter coverilig a pamphlet embodying two letters
from Professor Marsh to him, which contain the only charges known to
have been made agaii)st the agency by that gentleman.  The contents
of the pamphlet appeared first in the columns of the New York Tribune;
then were presented to tiie President by Professor Marsh. All this occurred after the appointment of the commissioners and the giving of
their instructions. A copy of the pamphlet is herewith, marked "
[p2ge 1.]
As in the pamphlet iusinuations are made against the sincenty of the
Secretary of the interior in regard to the investigation, and direct
charges agaii~st the Commissioner of indian Aff~irs,the    President determined to increase, by his own appointment, the number of members
of the commission, and you have been selected accordingly. His reason
for doing this is, that it may not be justly said that the Secretary of the
interior appointed a commission to investigate hi'nsdf and the Commissioner of indian Affairs. it must, therefore, be distinctly understood
that your appointment is not on account of any want of confidence in
your colleagues of the commission.
~Vith this letter of~xplanation, which you are at liberty to present to
your colleagues, you are requested to join and act with them under the
instructions they have received, a copy of which is herewith enclosed, as
before stated.
~Tei.y respectfully, your obedient servant,
C.DELANO,
Secretary.
Hon. TIMoTllY 0. HowE,
Professor G. ~~. ATllERToN,
Con~ n~issiot~ers.
Seci-etary Be~~~io to llo~~. T. C~. Fleteher.
DEPARTMENT OF TllE INTERIOR,
A~gust 2, 1875.
SIR: Following closely after the publication of the Marsh charges in
the New York papers, appeared the report of Samuel ~Valker, in regard 
XIII
to affairs at the Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies, dated December
6, 1873, and in the same coiinectioii it is charged that inasmuch as the
statements i?1 the ~Valker report never received the attention of the Interior Department, therefore the Secretary of the Interior was not desirous
of correcting the evils complained of by Mr. Walker.
Inasmuch as the Wa]ker report contained very grave charges against
the agents at the Red Clond and Spotted Tail agencies, the allegation
that those charges were disregarded or ign6red by this Department is a
very serious one, and the following statement of the action of the Departin cut, in regard to said report, is respectfully submitted for your information.
On tbe 4rh of February, 1874, I learned, for the first time, through an
outside or unofficial source, that Mr. Samnel Walker, a clerk in the office
of the Board of Indian Commissioners, had made a report to the board
of aii investigation made by him into affairs at the Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies.  On receipt of this information I at once wrote the
chairman of the board, (Mr. Brunot,) informing him of the fact that it
had been communicated to me tbrough an nuofficial channel that Samuel
Walker bad made such a report, and requesting him to inform me whether
my information was correct, and by what authority Walker bad been
sent out, and also requesting to be furnished with a copy of the report,
if one bad been made. A copy of my letter is transmitted herewith,
marked A, [p2ge 799.]
February 6, 1874, a reply was received from Mr. Brunot, apologizing
for the omission to send the report, and stating that it was his neglect,
but that he had now directed ttiat a copy of the Walker report be sent
to the Department.  Copy of Mr. Brunot's letter is sent herewitb,
marked B, [p2ge 800.]
Februry 11, 1874, a copy of Walker's report was received at the
Department from the secretary of the board, Mr. Cree. A copy of Mr.
Cree's letter is herewith, marked C, [p2 800,] and a copy of Walker's
report is also subniitted, marked D, [p2ge 801.]
It will be observed that Mr. Walker was appointed to make the investigation at the Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies October 28,
1873; that his report to the board is dated December 6, 1873, a'~d that
the Depar~ment was without any information in regard to the appointment, the investigation, and the report until the 4th of February, 1874,
two months after the report was made, and more than three months
after Walker was appointed to make the investigation, and a copy of
the report was not furnished until a week latter; and furthermore, that
the information, even at that late day, was not voluntarily furnished by
the board, but elicited only after a request had been made for it.
Owing to the extraordinary nature of the proceedings detailed above
and the character of the statements contained in the report, immediate
steps were taken to cause a thorough and complete investigation of the
matters complained of in the N\~lker report.  For this purpose, on the
23d of February, 1874, 1 appointed a commission, consisting of Bishop
liare, Rev. S. D. Ilinman, of the Protestant Episcopal Church, F. II.
Smith, and Inspector Bevier, with instructions to make a thorough investigation of affairs at the Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies, and
especially of those matters complained of in Walker's report. The selection of Messrs. llare and ilinman was made because of the fact that ~he
agents in charge of the two agelicies were appointed on the recommendation of the missionary authorities of that church and they were in a
measure responsible for their good conduct.  Copy of the instructions to
the commissioners is herewith, marked E. 
XIV
Said commission made a frill report, April 22, 1874, which was publish~d in the official r~ports for that year, and a copy is submitted herewith, marked F, [p2ge 8O7.}
That investigation was evidently made in a thorough and impartial
manner.  The report is full and frank in all its conclusions, and was
regarded by the Department as conclusive of the matters complained of.
That any of the charges in the N\~alker report were ignored or songht
to be covered up by the Indian Oflice is clearly shown to be an error by
the foregoing statement.
Your attention is respectfully invited to the report of the commission
of Bishop llare, especially to the reference therein m'tde to Mr. ~~alker's
method of investigation, to the character of his principal witness, and
the disproof of his most serious charges.
I will thank you to acknowledge the receipt of this commuiiication by
telegraph.
~~ry respectfully, your obedient servant,
C. DELANO, Secret~y.
llon. T. C. FLETCHER,
Chairman 1?ed Cloud Comn~~~sion, Rcd Cloud Agency. 
T~i~  ~F~~O~T.
To the Hoii. CLINTON B. FISK,
President of fite L~oard oJ' Indiu~~ &~ntmissione~'s:
The comtnission appointed to investigate the charges ii~ade by Pi'ofessor 0. C. ~Iarsh, in liis letter to the President of the United States
of July the 10th, 1875, touching the administration of affairs at the Red
Cloud ageilcy, and also to report such observations pertaining to Indian
affairs as might snggest themselves in the pro~ress of that ii~vestigation,
sul~init the following report:
Professor 0. C. ~Iarsb, of Yale College, a gentleman of high rei)utation in the scientific world, while upon a geological exi)edition to explore
the Bad Lands south of the Black llills, in November, 1874, was detained by
Indian opposition several days at the Red Cloud agency. ~Vhile he was
there an issue of cattle and annuity-goods came incidentally under his
notice, and some samples of very inferior flour, coffee, sugar, and tobacco
were plae'~d iii his hands by the chief of the Ogallalla band of Sioux
Indians, with the request that he would lay these samples before the
President of the United States, from which he could see how impeffeetly
the benign purposes of the Government were carried out in the quality
of the goods and provisions issued to that agency.  That gentleman, at
all times alive to whatever might affect the interests and good faith of
the Government, having some leisure at command to look into the administration of affairs at that point, and, besides, having a strong motive
to conciliate tlie good-will of the Indian chiefs in furtherance of his
scientific expedition by exhibiting ajust sympathy in their c~~mplaints,
promised to make a due presentation in person of their grievances to
the President. This be did in a personal interview, and in ore fully iii
his letter of the 10th of July.  In this communication to the President
he gives expression to some niifavorable impressions which he had derived froii~ his interview with tlie Secretary of the Interior and Commissioner of Indian Affairs, in coiinection with the alleged abuses at the
P~ed Cloud agency.
A letter of this character froin so eminent and public-s~~irited a citizen
as Professor Marsh-a gentlenian in no wise connected with the active
1)olitics of the day-very naturally awakened tlie interest and attracted
the attention of the country.  His letter was widely circulated and its
statements largely discussed in our leading public journals; and although
the complaints agaiust that particular agency liad beeu the subject of
formal inquiry by a most respectable comniission within the preceding
year, and many of the points here involved had been the sni~ect of congressional iiiquiry at its last session, yet a decent respect for public opinion dematided that a further examination should be made iii to the specific
charges of abuse so vigorously presented by Professor Marsh.  As these
charges might iii the investigation involve the integrity or official
diligence of the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian
Affairs, it would have been manifestly improper for them, or either of
them, to have nominated or selected the persons who were to coin pose
that commissio'i of investigitiOn.  The Secretary of the Intenor accord 
xv'
ingly, in a letter of the~1Oth of ~Iay, 1875, addressed to the Board of Indi~ii Commissioners, delegated to that body the exdusive selection of
three persons to form the co~mission.  This duty was accepted by that
Board, aii~l Thoinas C. 1'ietcher, of ~1issonri, Benjamin ~V. llarris, of
~Iassachnsetts, and Charles I. Faulkner, of ~Vest Virginia, were nominat~d an~l selected to perfor~ that-duty.  At a snbseqnent period, and
when this board was in the perfortnaiice of its diities, the President
added the names of Timothy 0. llowe, of ~Viscoiisin, aiid George ~v.
Atlierton, of New Jersey, to this commission.
The Board of Iiidian Commissioners, to whose nominatioii a majority
of this commission trace their coni~ection with the present inquiry, was
a body created by an act of Congress, passed in 186~~.  It cannot exceed
ten iii number.  Its members serve withont pay.  In its selection the
wishes of the various religious deijominations of the country have beeii
largely deferred to. It has been ordinarily composed of leadii~g merchants
and manufacturers of the eastern and western cities, with a fair representation of the agricultnral interest. It has usually embraced a body of men
who, from their eminent success in trade, are presumed to be above tl~e
temptafi<~us of bribery, and from  their well-established reputations for
patriotism, public spirit, and philanthropy are supposed to have an interest in tl~e purity of the Goveniment, aiid iii the welfare and civilization of the Indian race upon this continent.
The existence of this very unusual and ~i~omalous reature in our administrative system is to be traced to a belief that then pervaded the
public mind that the administration of our Indian affairs had become so
corrupt in all i~s ramifications.that it could no loi~ger be trusted without
some effectual check upon its acts.  It was believed that the disease
had become so deep-seated, the poison o~f corruption so extensively
diffused through its system, the "Indian Ring"so powerflil in its combinations, that no mere change in the ~ersonne1 of that Department could
accomplish the needful reform.  This Board was therefore created as a
check upon the administratioi~ of the Indian Department.  All contracts
for supplies have to be submitted for its approval; all accounts before
payment have to be submitted to its scrutiny and ~xamination.
No one who will look back to our history for the last ten years can entertain a moment's doubt that the existence of this board of eminent
private citizens has exercised a wholesome and purifying influence upon
that branch of the Interior Department.  The interposition of this body
may be slow, cumbrous, and at times somewhat iiicoiivenient.  It is
brought occasionally into embarrassii~g collision with the Interior Department; but none can deiiy that it is well calculated to discourage
corruption and to frustrate friud.  It could not well be otherwise.  Any
contractor, or agent, or Commissioner of Iiidian Affairs, or Secretary of
the Interior, would it least pause in tlie perpetration of any fraudulent
or improper act, wheii he knew that liis coiiduct must undergo the scrutiiiy
and revision of a body of citizens who, forming no part of the ad ministration proper, yet are takei~ from the great mass of their fellow-citizens,
to keep a vigilant eye upoii the acts of the a~lministrat~ion in that particular branch of the public service.
The members of tl)is con~ii)ission accepte~l tlic duties imposed upon
them, and adol~te(i tbe letter of Professor ~Iarsh to the Presideiit as the
startii~g~poiiit of their inquiries, he was requested to appear before
them to furnish any a~lditionaI inforinatioii of which he might be iii
possession, to give a list of all documents and papers copies of which
he wished from the Department at Washiiigton, aii~I also tlie names of
all ~)ersoiis upon whose testilnoliy lie relied to establish the statements 
xv"
contained in his letter. We desire to state that every witness whose
name has been furnished by the Professor has been examined in all cases
where that witness was at all within our reach.  We also examined
every other person whose relation or proxiniity to the affairs of the
agency gave us reason to suppose that he possessed any iliformafion on
the subject. Every do~nment aske4 for from the Interior Department
was ordere~l and promptly furnished. The body of testimony accompanying this report, and extended to ni)ward of eight hundred pages of
printed matter, will show that we sought every source of information
that was at all accessible to us.
Recurring, then, to the lt~ter of Professor Marsh of the 10th of July,
a'i~l taking up his charges in the order in which they are presented, we
find the first headed as follows:
THE INDIAN AGENT AT RED CLOUD A~ENCy.
It is charged that the "agent, Saville, is iucolnt)etent, weak, and vacillating, unfit for the responsible position he occupies," and "e~pecialiy
that he is iii league with the contractor to defraud the Indiaiis of the
foo(l aud clothing sent them by the Government."
The results of our investigation fully sustain the allegation of
Professor Marsh that the agent is incoml)etent and unfit for the position which he occupies; that he sl~onld be removed without delay, and
a competent successor appointed. His striking deficiencies are a nervous
and irritable temperainei~ t, inordinate loquacity, undignified beanug
aiid maniiers, a waiit of coolness and collectedijess of mind, and of firmness aiid decision of character.  With these defects he combiiies some
very excellent qualities of head aiid heart.  There is no proof, however,
to sustain the avermei~t that he was in league with the contractors to
defraud the Indiaiis of the food and clothing sent them by the Government. Not a fact has been elicited to sustain this allegation.  We see
nothing in the evidence to safisf~ us that Dr. Saville is either a grasping,
covetous, or corrupt man. llis tastes are rather literary and scientific,
and the love of money seems to form no part of his character.  There
are two acts ref~~rred to in the evidence-the Appleton contract, (pages
794, 795 of evidence.) apd his certificate to J. D. McCann ot the 20th of
January, 1874, (page 6'28,)-which exhibit an unpardonable disregard of
the moneyed interests of the Government, and which of themselves
ought to have caused his immediate removal from office; but, as it does
not appear that he was to derive any personal betiefit from these transactioiis, his errors mQv be explained by that want of firmness, which
caused him to yield to the importunities of the selfish and unprincipled.
All the testimony sufficiently repels the idea that he had aiJy participation
in the profits of any of the contractors for the supply of provisions, or in
the business of the traders around the agency; and it equally shows
that he has added nothing to his illealls or resources since he has been in
office, and that his financial condition has been rather impaired than improved.  He may certainly be referred to as an example of at least
one Indi;~n agent who goes out of office a poorer man than when he
entered it.
The general condition of affairs about the Red Cloud agency produced
upon us a very unfavorable impression. The low and iiiferior character
of the employe's, one of whom  was found intoxicated upon our arrival
there, the want of order and neattiess in the arrangement of the Government stores, and the habitual lounging of Intlian women and children
around the stockade, all itidicating a looseness of fl~ai1agement an~i a
lack of administrative capacity which were in keeping with the charac
2ip 
XVIII
teristics of the agent~to which we have already referred.  The clerk is
utterly incompetent for the position be occupies.  )Nje were the more
impressed with this condition of things after our visit to the Spotted
Tail agency, which, in all the particulars we have indicated, furnished
a striking contrast to that at Ped Cloud.  It should iu justice be said,
however, that the difficulties of Agei~t Saville's po~ition have been very
great, growing out of the establishment and organization of a new
agency in the midst of tnrbule'it and hostile surroundings, and there is
no doubt that the condition of affairs is far better than it was two years
ago.
~i;MBER OF INDIA~S AT THE AGE~CY OVERESTIMATED.
Professor ~Iarsh expresses the opinion that the number of Indians supplied with provisions at Red Cloud agency has beeii overestimated. In
making this a~~erment the Professor states that this overestimate has
been made "for purposes which can only contemplate fraud;" but he is
vague in this tecusation, and does not suggest the mode in which such
fraud might be perpetrated, nor does he point to any incident or occasion upon which it has been practiced.  It is difficult to see any point
or loree in this suggestion, unless it were accompanied with the charge
that this overestimate has been made for the purpose of procurilig
larger supplies from the Government than are necessary, and of dishonestly appropriating a~l such sup~~lies to the uses of the agent himself.
But no such specific charge is iuade by Professor Marsh; no such surplus has ever been known to exist; and the constant clamor of the Indian is that he is stinted in his supply of food.  ~Ve apprehend that if
the wild aiid ferocious tribes that surround tlie Red Cloud agency could
be made for one moment really to believe that the agent had dishonestly
withheld from theni any provi~ions or supplies to which they were justly
entitled his life would not be safe an instant.
In the absence, then, of any specific charge of fraud based upon this
supposed overestimate of numbers, it may be regarded as simply a question of accuracy of enumeration as between the Professor and the agent,
Saville.  It is well kijown that there has always been great difficulty in
reaching any accurate census of our wild Indian population. Their
nomadic habits, their frequent changes of encampment, their superstitiotis or pretended superstitions, aversion to being counted, have constantly thrown difficulties in the way of a reliable enumeration.  Under
our system of Governuient supplies we can easily perceive additional
motives which niay have actuated them in opposition to a census of
their numbers. In the absence of aiiy such enumeration, they were able
to practice great imposition and fraud upon the agelit by exaggerating
their ii umber, and receiving sul)plies far beyoiid those to which they
were entitled.  It thus becanie a very severe struggle between the agent
endeavoring to enforce an enumeration on one hand and the Iiidians resistingthat enumeration on the other. All persuasive efforts upon the part
of the agent to induce them to submit to a count proved fruitle~s. ~~Then
he, upoi~ oiie occasioii, sought to make it without their coilsent, lie was
forcibly arrested by them and his life seriously inii~eriled.  lIe had iio
course left open to him but to starve them iii to submission, and he accordiiigly aiinounced to them ii) very decisive teruis tl~at he would make
no further issue of goo~ls or provisions until they coiiseiited to be
counte~l.  Perceivitig that he was acting up to the declaration so aniiou'iced ai~d withholding their supplies, they yielded a reluctant concut to his terms.  But even then the experiment was not without danger, and the agent was forced to employ such men as Janis, Resliaw, 
XIX
Rowland, some half-breeds, and others who had married Indian women,
c~lied "squaw-men," to go into their tepees for that purpose. These
were, it is true, not fl~e moSt reliable men for the performance of that
duty, bnt they were the oiily ones who would uiidertake the task or
could have performed it with safety. They had sufliciei~t education and
clerical skill to enable them to take the census.  N\7liether they performed their duty honestly and faithfully to the Government may be a
question in the minds of some.  By their report, the enumeratioji stood
as follows:
Arapahoes                                                1, 821
Cheycunes.                              394
Sioux                                                    9, 3~39
To this were afterward added Kiocsies, a band of the Sioux,
bunting at the time of regi~tration                        700
Arapahoes and Cheyennes subquently registered..            629
Making in all...  13,423
N\?l~ether this enumeration be strictly accurate, or has been exagger
ated by the dishonesty of the "squaw-men" wlio took it, it is difticult
to determine; but it is the only approximation to an authentic census
which has been taken, and l~as formed the basis upon which tlie agent
has made his returns to the Indian Bureau, aiid upon which he has
made his distribution of supplies to the various heads of bands around
the agency.  It is true that General Bradley and other highly intelligent and well-informed men coi~cur with Professor Marsh in estimating
their numbers at a much lower figure, and strong facts are adduced by
them in support of their opinions; but they are at best but mere esti.
mates, without any of tiie aids of an actual e.numeratio'i.  Tlte point is
without practical importance, except so far as it may determine the appropriatioi)s of Coi~gress for supplies at that age ii cy, and we believe that
Coiigress lias iiot yet erred in grailting supplies iii excess of tlie needs
of the Indians at that point.
It is not to be questioned that tlie Red Cloud agency is liable to Hie
irruption of what ar~ called " Northern Indians, ~~ " ho, forniiiig part of
the Sioux Nation, wheii pinched by l~u'iger and tlie deficiency of game,
resort to ttie agency and demand their supplies of food and other
stores.  This devolves upon tl~e agent a delicate, responsible, and sometimes hazardous duty.  ~Vhatever is given to these savage visitors is
so much taken from those who have been registered and live around
the agencies, and yet their demands cannot always be refused with
safety.  It is very clearly iii evidence that there was a large body of
these Northern Indians on a visit to this agency in Oetober, 1874, and if
Professor Marsh did i)Ot meet with them in the November following,
when he crosse~l the ~Vhite River his failure to see them cannot overrule the concurring evidence which shows that they had beeii there.
This Commission is by no meins satisfied that the enumeration made
by the lialfbreeds ai~d " squaw-men," by the direction of Dr. Saville,
and in tlie circumstances nuder which it was made, can be relied npon
for strict accuracy; and as the hostility of the Indians to a count has
to a great extent subsided, they would recoin in end that one of the first
duties that the new ageiit shall undertake shall be to procure a more reliable census of the number of those encamped aicund the agency, aiid,
when any of tlie "Northern Indians" who are not registered shall visit
there and receive supplies, that he make a separate aiid accurate account
of their iiumber and of the supplies issued to them. 
XX
ISSUE OF ANNUiTY~GOODS.
We found the system of keeping accounts at the Red Cloud agency
exceedi~~gly loose and defective, and for much of this the Indian Office
is justly censurable.  It is only within the last few weeks that the (;oveminent has supplied the books to the agent and required the adoption
of a systeill calculated to exhibit clearly the state of his accounts. Prior
to that time the agentfurnished hisown books, and made all his accounts
in a loose and irregular manner; and when his agency expired, carried
off all the books and papers as his private property.  Again, by the
provision of the Treaty of 1868, article 10, it was expressly stipulated
that an officer of the Arniy shall annually be detailed by the President
to be present, and attest the delivery of the annuity-goods to the
Indians, and to inspect and report on tlie quantity and quality of the
goods, aiid the manner of their delivery.  This wise and important provision of law-for such under the Constitution it is-li as been utterly
disregarded; and wheii interrogated upoii the subject, the Commissioner
of Indian Affairs avowed his entire ignorance that any such provision
was contained in the treaty.  ft is easy to lierceive that if this requirement of law had been faithfully coniplied with, niany of the irregularities
which have~been the subject of complaint could not have had any existence.  Again, among the admirable recommendations addressed to the
Interior Department by tlie commission of which Bishop llare was chairman, in April, 1874, was the following  "That all beef and other pro.
visions be issued by orders on the issue-clerk, which orders shoul~l pass
through the office in order to their appearance on the books; that these
orders be filed away for safe-keeping, and the books and papers of the
agency be tbe property of the Government and not of tlie ageiit.~~ With
the exception of a recent order of the Department, asserting the right
of the Goverunient to the books kept by the agent, aiid forbi~iding him
to carry them off as private property, no attempt has been made to prescribe and enforce this valuable recommendation; so that the books
kept at the Red Cloud agency, even up to the period of our visit there,
throw but a very imperfect light upon its transactions.
N\~hile it is tru~ that there was this geiieral looseness in tlie system of
distribution, they cannot concur in the justice of the particular statements of fact that Professor Marsh makes as evidence of irregularity and
fraud. lle states that wheii the issue of blankets took place on th~ 12th
November, 1874, not more than twenty, certainly not more than twelityfive, bales of blankets were distribnted to the Indians.  This statement
he bases in part u~)on his own passing observation, made without a count,
but also upon a certificate of a half-breed by the name of Louis Reshaw.
Then, referring to the official returns of the agent, which shows a distribution of thirty-seven bales, he jumps to the conclusion that a gross
fraud has been practiced both npou the Government and the Indians.
Now, if there is one fact which beyond any other tlie evidence renders perfectly clear and indisputable in this case, it is that those thirtyseven bales of blankets were honestly and fairly distributed to the Indians.
This is shown by the voluntary declaration made by Red Cloud in his first
speech to the commission, when no inquiry was addressed to him on the
sui~ject. It is established by the testimony ofSitting Bull, one of the most
honest and faithful of theOgallalla headmen,who had been deputed tocoun t
them, and who had actually counted them.  It is proven by tlie receipt
of Louis Resliaw, given on the day of delivery, and by the clerks and
eni~)loy~s who were present, to say nothing of the positive statement of
the agent himself  Louis Reshaw was examined as a witness before 
XXI
the commission, and his tesfimony as there given repudiates the certificate given to Professor ~1arsh, with all the conclusions which he draws
from that supposed fact.
The coin mission do not concur in the censure which the Professor has
passed upon the agent's late distribution of blankets that fall.  It was
an essential part of his policy to enforce an enumeration of the Indians
around the agency. The blankets had been delivered some weeks previous to that day, but they were withheld from issue until consent was
ol~tained to a count of the numbers entitled to dist~bution. So soon as
the ceijsus was allowed to be taken and tlie returns ascertained, the
issue took place.  Neither can they see in the fact that the issue of
annuity-goods aiid provisions took place in a single day, and with great
rapidity and dispatch, any cause for condemnation.. The day was cold
ai~d wintry; the snow was falling rapidly.  The Indians had assembled
there with their wives and chlldren, many of them from a distance of
fifteen aiidtwenty miles; their supplies had been withheld from them for
about two weeks to enforce a count; they were hungry ai~d destitute of
the necessary protectioii against the weather, and it was rather a merit
thaii a ground for censure that such extraordii~ary dispatch was resorted to to make the dist~bution on that day. It is nowhere asserted
that the distribution as among the Indians themselves was not fair and
equal; aiid if the issue on that day did not assume that precise business character which would have comported with the Professor's ideas
of iiiercantile system, it at least filled many an empty stomach, and
clothed many a naked body.
JsEEF-CATTLE.
Professor ~Iarsh, in his letter to the President, charges fraud in the
matter of furnishing beef to the Indians at Red Cloud agency.
The fourth and ninth specifications of fraud are as follows:
Fourth. "The beef-cattle given to the Indians have been very inferior,
owing to systematic frauds practiced by the agent and beefcontractors.~
Ninth. "In consequence of fraud and mismanagement, the Indians
suffered greatly duriiig the past winter for food and clothing."
He also says that "Agent Saville was placed in his position to guard
the interests of the Indians and of the Government, and it appears that
lie betrayed both alike. He defrauded the Indians by withholding from
them I)rovisions which he charged against the Goveriiment as issued to
Also, that "the frauds perpetrated in supplying the Red Cloud
ageiicy with beefeattle have been so gigantic, and so bug and systematically continued, that it is well worth while to show how they are
accomplished, and who is responsible for tlie outrage."
Also, that "these frauds ii' weight, which are consummated by direct collusion between the agent aiid contractor, and through which
both the Indians and the Government are so greatly defrauded, form
only a part of the general system of theft.  1 have reason to believe
that equal rascality is practiced in regard to the number of cattle."
Also, that "another fluitful source of flaud in cattle at the Red Cloud
agency is the system of stampeding which appears to have been practiced there, at least since the present age lit took charge;~~ and that
"from such stampedes, and the fraudulent results followitig, both the
Iiidiaiis and the Government have suffere~i great ~~55~~~
Ttie substance of these several forms of statements may be embraced
under the following heads 
xxlr
1.That Dr. J. J. Saville, Indian agent at the Red Cloud agency, and
Jan~es ~V. Bosler and his associates, who furriishe~~ the beef for the use
of tlie Indians at tlie agency, combined together in a design to defraud
the United States Government and the Indians.
2.That in puisuance of that design, Bosler delivered to Saville catU~
unfit for beef, which Saville knowingly accepted and gave receipts for.
3.That Saville gave Bosler receipts knowii~gly for greater nuu~bers
of cattle than were delivered, and that the weight of cattle actually delivered was greatly overstated in said receipts.
4.That Savill~ knowingly allowed cattle, which he had received and
receipted for, to return to the herds of Bosler, to be again delivered to
him by Bosler and again receii)ted for; and that this kind of fraud was
systematic.
5.That during the winter of 1S74-'75 the Indi'i1~S suffered greatly for
food, as the direct result of tlie dishonesty of Saville, Bosler, and others,
in these respects.
The duty before us is to ascertain the truth of these charges and declare it.  The great magnitnde of the frauds alleged to have been committed has excited much public discussion, and has received at our
hands thorough  aiid searcliii~g investigation; and we have omitted
no opportunity to gain inforniation, and failed to call no person before us from who in there seemed to be  reasonable probability
that aiiy fact bearing upon the subject, however slight, could be elicited.  The evidence submitted herewith comes from a great number of
witnesses, widely scattered over the country, many of whom testified
from actual observation and personal knowledge, and many-possibly
the greater number-from hearsay and public rumor.  ~Iuch of it, we
are aware, would have been at once rejected in any court of law; but
we preferred to hear it, trusting to be able to give it its just and true
weight in drawing our conclusions.  It is necessary to review this testimony to some extent, that the correctness of our condusions may the
more readily appear.
Tite charges submitted to us for our consideration are' contained in
the letters of Professor 1~Iarsh to the President, which are presented
together in pa~nphlet form.  It is apparent upon inspection that much
of this pamphlet is iii the nature of argument upon assumed facts,
r~ther than a statement of facts within the writer's personal knowledge.
~Vhile iii the pamphlet he states his conclusions and opinions as facts,
it is manifest that lie relies for the reasons and grouiids thereof less
upon his own observatioii aiid knowledge than n~)on the opiniolis aiid
conclusions of others.  ~Vhile we receive the statemelits of Professor
~Iarsh upon all matters within his own personal kiiowledge as evidence
of the highest character, and entitled to the utmost coiifldence, yet it
will not, we think, be daimed by him or any other intelligent person
that we caii with safety to the public, or justice to the individuals implicated, adopt his conclusions or accept the results of his argument, unless they are found upon full inquiry to be sustained by the facts.  The
Profr~sor, in the opeiling statement of the evidence relied upon by hini
npon the subject of frauds in beef-cattle, makes the following abstract
of the contract for beef for~the last fiscal year:
The coutract for f~ruishing cattle to this au(1 other Sioux agencies for the last fiscal year
was given to j. K. Forc-rnau, of Oniaha, aud was signed by Indian Coiun~issiouer Smith,
July 14, 1S74.  The cattle delivered were required to average ~5O pounds for the first six
inouths, and J,C00 pounds for tile last six inouths, and tie price was $`2.3O.k per 1~)O pound~
gross we;ght, on the hoof. It was expressly stipnlated th~t all the beef offered for accept 
XXIII
ance under this contract shall be subject to a tborou~h inspection, and if, on such inspection, any of it fails to conform to the req'iirements of this contract, tie same shall be rejected
by the parties makin~ the inspection.  The inspectors were authorized, in such a case, to reqmre tlie contractor to replace the rcjected cattle within five days by proper beef. If not, the
rirht was reserved to purchase tlie cattle required at the expense of the contractor.  A hond
of $1~0,O0t), with two good and sufficient sureties, was required to he given to insure the
faitliflil fulfillment of tha contract.
lle tl~en proceeds to dl'~rgC that this contract was tainted with fraud
fiorn its inception, and states tlie r<~~t~ oii which the charge rests iii the
following laiignage:
There i~ thundant evide'ice that this contract was not made in good faith.  The contract
~vas itot filled by the party to whom it was given, b~it (like too many Ij~dian contracts) was
transferred for  a valuable consideration," a few days after it was si~ncd, to ~V. A. Paxton,
of Oniaha.  As ~his assignment could not take place by tlie teriii~ of the contract without
the written consent of the Secretary of the Interior, the fnll responsibility of this transfer
rests with hini.  This contract was nominally in force at the time of my visit to ~ed
Cloud agency.  The real beef-contractor, however, whom I found supplying this agency,
~vas the well-known Bosler, notorious for frauds in previous contracts, and for this reason
excluded by tbe published regulations fiom any participation in future contracts. This
second virtual transfer of the contract to him was well known to every one at the agency
and in that region, and must have been equally well known to the Interior Department.
~~e find the facts to be that Air. J. K. Foreman was the lowest bidder
for beef for the Sioux agencies; that the contract was awarded to him;
tltat ~te complied with the requirements of the published advertisement
inviting bids, and entered ii~to bonds itt tlie required sum, one hundred
and fifty thousattd dollars, ($150,000,) givi!1g as his bottdsmeit James ~~.
Bosler and Josei)h Bosier, of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.  It is not contended, nor does it appear, tl~at the principal or his bondsmen were tiot
atnj~ly able to respotitl to all the requirements of the contract.  Thus
far, and uI)Oti the face of it, tite cotitract is free from any appearance of
fraud, atid we cantiot assume tit at the parties to it were not acting in
cit tire good faith.  The contract was assigiied on tbe 30th day of July,
1574, to ~Villiant A. Paxton, in whose name it was filled.  This contract
called lor the delivery of 22,5()0,0()0 pounds of beef-cattle, which, at the
contract price of $2.30~aLo per 100 poutids, amounts to more that $500,000.
To execute such a contract at so low a rate successfully arid profitably required capital, experietice, skill, and busitiess capacity; arid it may well be
that a combination of ~apital aiid experience was iiidispeiisably iiecessary
for the execution of the contract; and such a combination might ~~roperly
be made without raising aiiy presumptions of fraud or frauduleiit purI)oses.  At any rate we find the facts to be that the assignment of the
coiotract from i?oreman to Paxton was n~ade for busirtess reasons, and
not for aiiy frill cash-consideration paid at tite tiii0e; that Foreman still
retaitied aii interest in the cotitract, arid that ~~~. A. Paxton, J. T. Baldwin, A. II. ~Vilder, D. ~V. C. ~Vheeler, and James W. Bosler became
associated with bim; that tlte busitiess of itiaking the purcitases and
delivering the cattle was assigned to and niodertaken by Bosler; that
all dcliv cries of cattle under t lie coiit ra ct were made by B osle r, iii the
iiaitie of ~Villian~ A. Paxton, to whom all vouchers were made payable;
that Bosler, in consideration of his services, and for the large share of
the ii ecessiry capital furn islied by him, became entitled to an~1 received
a greater sbare of the profits titan cttli~r of his a~so~tates.
~Vc fail to discover iii the above fi~cts, about which there is no dispute,
any evidence of fraud itt the inakitig or in the assigntnent of the coit
tract, or in the combitiations for its execution.  They seem to be quite
as consistent with ati intention iaithfiilly to carry out the contract on
the part of ~~tr. Paxton and his associates as with any purpose to defraud tlie Governmeiit; and it would be a violation of every rule of
morals, as well as of law, to draw from these circumstances infeiences 
XXIV
of fraud or of fraudulent intent, when the opposite conclusion is equally
consistent with the fl~cts, and natural.
The Professor, in tlie same paragraph of his pamphlet, speaks of Mr.
Bosler as "notorious for frauds in previous contracts, and for this reason
excluded by the published regulations from any participation in future
contracts."
We find the facts to be that Mr. Bosler has at various times had contracts with the War and Indian Departments, and that he never was
refused a contract wheii his bid entitled him to it, but has always been
awarded the contract when he has been the lowe~t bidder.  It has not
been shown or attempted to be shown that be had violated any previous contract or been a party to any previous frauds upon the (x~overninent.  lle has had a contract directly and in his own name with the
Iiidian Department every year except one for many years, and then lie
failed to be the lowest bidder.  lle has su~h a contract this year.  We
find that this charge is wholly unsupported, and we find iiowhere in the
eviden~e anything to warrant us in saying that Mr. Bosler is not properly regarded as an honest man in all his business transactions.
We may as well here state the relation of I. \V. B~sler with th contract for supplying the Sioux agencies with beef for the current year,
which we find to be as follows:
This contract was awarded to Seth Mabry, of the firm of Mabry &
Millett, Texas catfle-dealers.  They, with other firms associated with
theni, having sent forward from Texas numerous henls of cattle and
among them 25,000 head of cows and beeves for which they desired to
secure a market at an advance over last year's rates, Mr. Mabry
went to New York ai~d there put in a bid to supply all the Sioux
ageilcies for the current year at $2.46~ per ~00 pounds, and, his being
the lowest bid, he was awar~led the contract.  His object, however, was
to force a market for cattle then on the way, and not to engage in tlie
business of delivering the cattle to the ageticies.  lie, therelore, immediately made an arrangement with Mr. Bosler, by which Bosler should
pay him for all his cows $t2 per head, and for beeves four years old and
upwanl $20 per head, advance him $3(),0()0 cash, and furnish the required security for the fulfillment of the contract.
Under this arrangement, Mr. Bosler has l~urchased for cash over
33,00() head of beef cattle, which have beeit and were at the time of our
visit beiug delivered on the Platte River and at other points convenient
to the several agencies.  On delivering the cattle he receives vouchers
in Mr. Mabry's name and as his ag~ut.
Professor Marsh charges that Saville claitned credit as for the 8th
day of November, 1874, for the issue of "271,248 pounds of beef," or
over 260 head of cattle, according to the average weight which he allowed the coiitractor ojt the last herd received, and adds: "The truth
is, that he issued no beef whatever to the Indians on that day, nor for
several days afterward, as I understand froni the agent and others at
tlte agency." "I arrived at the agency November 9, and was informed by
the agent that he had been for some time withholding rations from the
ludians until they would consent to be counted," &c.  Recurring to the
same subject, on page 14, he says:
For example, there is conclusive evidence that the only cattle at the agency Novemher 11,
1874, were the seven head of puny animals examined by General Bradley; yet, according
to the provision-returns of Agent 8aville for the fourth quarter of 1874, now oii file in the Interior Department, he should have had 184,905 pounds, or, according to his official receipts.
179 head.  It has beeu shown above, however, that the beef-issue which he claimed t'3 have
made November 8 did not take place; hence he should have had on November 11 at least
446,427 pounds of beef, or about 430 head of cattl~ when he actually had only seven. 
xxv
This charge has been made not only by Professor Marsh, but by other
persons through the press and otherwise, and merits full consideration.
The facts wbich we have upon the subject are as follows:
It is true that no beef was issued to the Indians on November 8, 1874,
nor afterward until November 14, when Professor Marsh was present.
It is claim&~d by Dr. Saville, however, that issues of beef did take place
between the 1st and 8th of November as follows:
November 2 issued                                          377
November 2, to Big Horn and Small Horse                      1
November 2, to Scraper                                       1
November 2, to N\7hite Thunder.    
November 2, to Keeps the Battle                              1
November 2, to Big Hawk and Woman's Dress                    1
No~ember 2, to soldiers                                      1
November 2, to Spotted Elk and Little Star -..              1
November 7, butchered...    2
Total                                                387
And that the date "November 8', was intended to cover all issues from
the 1st to the 8th.  If the issue claimed by Dr. Saville actually took
place, not on the 8th, but from the 1st to the 7th inclusive, it is of but
little consequence as to the precise date of the issue.  Professor Marsh
offers the admissions and statements of Dr. Saville, made to him at Red
Cloud and at Washington, to prove that no issue took place on the 8th,
and claims that having proved that fact the inference necessarily follows that Dr. Saville is guilty of having defrauded the Indians of that
aiuouut of beef, and the C~overnmeut of the contract price, or the sum
of about *6,247.  The fact being admitted that no issue was made November 8, as claimed by Professor Marsh, the question arises, "Was
that ~monnt of beef issued at all ~"  Upon this subject we state the fact
that we find upon the book of beef receipts and issues claimed by Dr.
Saville and his clerk to bave been kept at the time, and to be the book
of original entries, an account of the issue of 377 head as one item under date of November 2, and of eight cattle issued to individual Indians
by name, on the sam~ day, and of two butchered on the 7th of November, as above stated.
Dr. Saville also, iii bis reply to Professor Marsh's charges, printed
herewith ou page 380, says:
Upon referring to my abstracts of issues I find what Professor Marsh characterizes as
fraud is a clerical error in the clerk placing the figures opposite the date of the 8th instead
of the 1st of November, as it stiould be.  Furthermore, that the forms upon which these abstracts aremade do not and cannot represent all the facts connected with the issue of provisions, and, as a matter of fact, that all the issues are not made upon the first dates, but, as it
will be observed, they are to date from the 8th to the 14th, and from the 15th to the 22d, and
so on; and that the issues are made on either of the days between these two dates; that the
issues of beef are always made on different days from the issue of o~ther rations, and that
these dates represent the number of days for which tlie amount of rations set opposite these
days are given, ai'd that they foot up an aggregate of the correct amount of provisions that
are issued during the quarter, each month's issue being divided into four parts and thus entered on tlie abstracts.
He also, at page 382, sa~s:
The issue represented on the abstract. opposite the date of the 8th to the 15th should be
opposite to the dates of the 1st to the 7th.
it appears by the returns of Dr. Saville that he had on the 1st of October, 1874, issued to the Indians all the cattle he had received and
receipted for up to that date, except 278 head, which he carried on his
books as on hand, as of the weight of 288,804 pounds.  These cattle,
however, were not on hand, but represented the number which had
stampeded from the agency to the contractor's herd, as was supposed, 
XXVI
on the night of the 7th of September, and of which no portion had at
that (late, October 1, been returned to the a~enQy. TIie circunistances
attending that stampede will be stated liereat~er iii considering another
charge of Professor Marsh.
On the 1st of October the coiitractor delivered, as a~)pe'Irs by the returns, 663 head, weighing 691,509 I)ounds, for which lie gave receipts,
and, as we believe, 150 more, which were not receipte~l for, but retui~aed
as part of those stampeded, making a total of 813.  There were issued
to the Indians on that (lay, as appears by the books of the agent, 366
head, an~l on the 5th, 8 head, iiiakiug a total of 374, and leaving on
hand 439. There were issued October 11th, 380; on the 16th, 2: on
the 19th, 1; a total of 383, leaving oii hand October 19th, 56.  On' the
30th of October there were received 758 hea~l, making the total on hand
that day of 814.  Oii the 21st of October H~ere were issned 392 head,
and between the 21st ~!1d 31st, 23; a total of 415, and leaving on hand,
November 1st, 399.  Tiie books show that on the 2d of November the
agent issued 377 bead, aiid to individu.~l Indians 8; and that on
the 7th 2 were butchered, leaving a l~alance on hand of 12.
If his accounts ~0re correct lie could have on hand for which receipts
had been give ii but twelve cattle.
In statiig this account, we have placed 150 heid of stampeded cattle
as having been delivered with the 663 on October 1, and for this reason:
It does iiot appear that the agent received any cattle between tlie 1st and
20th of that niontli.  lle claims to have issued between tlie 1st and the
19th 757 cattle, which are more thaii he conld ~)ossibly have had on hand,
nuless some portions of the stampeded cattle liad been recei~'ed by hini
between the 1st aiid 19th, and niore tltaii he had receipted for.  lle
dalins to have received fiom Bosler 150 of tlie stampeded cattle before
~he 14th of No veiii her, when Professor ~Iarsh was there; for he says in
his testimony, (p. 3S5,) "On the 2d of November 1 made the last issue
before we con ii ted the Indiaiis.  Mn Bosler had brought here 150 of
those cattle which had escaped." On page 386 he says, "Mr. Bosler
returned tlie 150 in November." And on page 391, iii answer to the
qnestion, "liow many cattle did Mr. Bosler return to you on account of
the stampede?" lie says: "O[i the settlement with hiin, in the middle
of November, he returned 150 head." lle also says:  "I took them,
calliiig theni the same average weights of those of September 7~ the last
received, tlie average beiiig 1,038 pounds ~~~~~~~
As to the time when the 150 stampeded cattle were returned, Dr. Sa.
ville seems to be in some confusion of memory; but, as no record was
made of it, and be simply received at some delivery at abont that time
150 head more than he gave a receipt for, it inay not be strange that he
should not now remember, or bQ able to testify, with eiitire accuracy.
From these facts it seems conclusive that he must have received 150
head more on the 1st of October than lie receii)te(1 f~r. This view of the
matter is strengthened by the testiniony of G. ~I. Bosici:, wlio s~ys, in
speaking of the stampede of September 7, 1874: " I kiiow th;it at the
next delivery an equal nuniber of cattle was stricken off to make ~l) the
It is proper to state in tliis con,iiection that Mi. Bosler clainied, and
still claims, \hat of the 278 head lost oiily 150 head returiied to ilis herd,
which explains what G. M. Bosler, the chief herder, m eaiis by saying
that "an equal number of cattle were taken off."
N\rhile we cannot t9o strongly condemn a system of book-keeping
which would leave an item so large in amount as this one is in donbt,
either as to the time or the fact of the return, we cannot but believe the
fact, as Dr. Saville stites it to be, that of the 278 head of cattle lost he 
XXVII
bad obtained from Bosler before the 2(1 of Nove~ber 150 head of cattle
of substanti~lly equal size and value.  The correspoi~dence and affidavits printed on pa~es 443-6 show that the matter of the stampede, the
recovery of 150 head, aiid the possible loss of 128 l~ead, was fully cornmui~icated to tl~e Department as early as December 21, 1874, at a time
when jio frauds, so far as appears, had been imputed to Dr. Saville or
the contractor. As the statements then made are ill substance the same
as those now niade, we incline, and, iiideed, feel compelled, to accept
this as true. This disposes of the statement of Professor ~Iarsh that
Dr. Saville should have had on hand, November 11th, 430 head, weighing
246,427 pounds, for it conclusively shows that lie could have had on hand
but twelve head.  ~Ve are, therefore, of the opinion that the charge that
Dr. Saville cheated the Iudiai~s out of the issue claimed by him to have
been made November 8, 1874, and the Cioverument of their price, is without foundation.
It is claimed of the seven head of c~ittle whidi were in the agency
herd, aiid which were all that remained oji hilid November 9
1. That they wete small, inferior cattle, unfit for beef, and weighing,
gro55, only 358 pounds each.
2. Tl~at they had been receipted i~or to the contractor aiid accepted by
the a~0ent; and,
3. That they were not smaller than those turned over for slaughter on
any ordinary issue-day.
That these cattle were poor, small and uiiflt for beef, is established
not only by the certificate of (jen. L. P. Bradley, Capt. John ~Iix,and
Lieutenant Hay, published in the pamphlet, but by the testimony of all
tlie other witnesses who saw them, and by the adiiiission of Dr. Saville
himself  But that they bad ever been receipted for to the contractor,
or is~ued to the Indians at all, as stated by Red Cloud, is by no means
established.  There is much testimony to the effect that Dr. Saville re
fused to receipt for 13 to 15 head of cattle because they were small and
~inflt for issue, and that, in fact, they were i~ever issued to the~Indians
at all, but were taken off and killed by them without any authority from
the ageilt and without payment to the contractor.
It will be noticed th~t from tlie certificate of (~`eneral Bradley and
others, the statement of Red Cloud to tlie effect that these cattle had
been issued to his people, an~ that they were not smaller than those
turiied over for slaughter on an ordinary issue-day, is left to stand
without any indorsement from these officers, upon the evidence of Red
Clou(l and two other Indians.  It may, therefore, be doubted whether
the officers themselves placed much confidence in the statement of the
Indians.  It is much to be regretted that (~~eneral Bradley and
his associates, if they desired to ascertaili the probable facts concernii)g the weight and quality of the cattle issued to the Indians, did
not, instead of visiting the remainder of a herd of seven poor cattle
without the knowledge of the agent or contractor, visit the ageiiQy corral when 701 head of cattle were beiiig weighed and issued within a
mil ai~d a half of their camp.  Had they done so, they would have
been able to furnish us with important aid in settling the vexed question
of frauds in beefeontracts.
It cannot be serionsly claimed even by Professor Marsh that the weight
of cattle delivered at Red Cloud agency at that time was only 358
pouiids gross, for the average of yearlings would be as great as or even
greater thaii that; and there is overwhelming evidence that the great
bulk of the cattle were full-grown cows and oxeo, and that few young
cattle were delivered. 
XXVIII
Professor ~Iarsh claims that Dr. Saville admitted to tbe Rev. S. D.
Hinman and himsdf that "these seven cattle had all been receipted for to
the contractor, received by him, and were in his charge;" and that "all,
or nearly all, of them were subsequently issued to the Indians." Saville
denies this in the following words, viz: "I told bim that I did not remember distinctly the facts about the cattle; that my impression was
that there were six instead of eight, and two of them at least were yearlings, and had not been received from the contractor; and this indefinite statement Profrssor Marsh tortures into his positive statement,
which I corrected twice-once in the presence of Bishop Hare, when 1
accused him of perverting my words.  Yet after tl)is correction he publisltes this incorrect statemei~t as quoted from ine.  On iny retnrn to the
agency I found the facts as follows: Two of the eight cattle referred to
by Professor Marsh were milch-cows-one of them belongiiig to Mr.
Reed, living near Cheyenne, the other a cow which the herders had milked
all summer, aiid the remaining six were a part of the thirteen bead
which I bad rejected, and which, instead of being ttken as usual out of
the corral by the Indians, bad gone to the range with the herd.  Some
of these cattle were killed on the range, as was the case with the miichcows, but none of them were issued to the Indians as ~~~f'~ Bishop Hare
is here called in to settle the point iii dispute, who says, iii answer to
the question: " ~That is your recollection as to that conversation ~"
I understood the point Professor ~tarsh made was that Dr. Saville had said that he receipted for those seven head of cattle, and thereby made the Governnient responsible for
them, while I understood Dr. Saville to say that lie did not receipt for them, but simply
received them.  He made a distinction between the two words.  He (Saville) represen ted that they were driven up with the rest of the cattle, and he had permitted them to
be driv"n into the corral, and afterward they were issued to the Indians; that he did not
receipt for them, although he received them.  There is a distinction plainly implied between
the two words.  That is to say, if he had receipted for them the Government would be responsible and had to pay for them, while if he merely allowed them to be driven in and
did not receipt for them. the Government was not responsible for them,    *        *
The difference was in the two words " receipted" and "received," Professor ~Iarsh understanding that it was "receipted," and Dr. Saville that it was "received." It was in regard
to that that the feeling was displayed.  As to what Saville had previously said I do not
know.
The testimony of Bishop llare corroborates Saville's statement, and
leads us to the conclusioii that Professor Alarsh misunderstood Dr.
Saville.  The statement of Dr. Saville is further coiifirmed by,I. II.
Bosler, the brother of J. ~r Bosler, the superiutendent for the contractors, who testifies (p. 165) as follows
Q. Do you remember anything of a time when there were only seven head of cattle at
Red Cloud agency~
A. Yes, sir: I cannot tell the number, but I remember the time that tliere was a small
bunch of cattle there.
Q. What kind of cattle were they ~
A. Poor cattle, and such cattle as Dr. Saville rejected and never receipted to me for.  I
was in the East, and I returned some time in December-I think it was the latter part of
December-aiid there were cattle unreceipted for for some time back. and Dr. Saville told
me that there had been a lot of c~ttle received in November that he thought lie would
have to reject, and it strikes me it was fifteen head that he just struck off the average and did not receipt for.  I had the privilege of teking them out of the herd, but they
were killed by the Indians, so that I never got them out and never got any pay for them.
From all the evidence we are satisfied that the cattle were never receipted for or issued by the agent, and that they were not a fair sampie of the cattle usually issued to the agenQv.
Before passilig from this subject, however, it may be well to note how
General Bradley, Captain Mix, and Lieutenant Hay arrived at the average gross weight of' these cattle.  In their certificate they say that "Each 
~xIx
of us, unknown to the other, marked at that time his estimate of the
gross weight of these cattle, and remember the average thereof to be 358
ponnds.~~ Certainly one would understand, from the above, that 358
pounds was the gross weight. The testimony of General Bradley conveyed the idea that the 358 pounds were gross weight, though not
distinctly so stated by him. Lieut. Leonard llay, ill describing the
cattle, says: "There were seven head of cattle there, and there were
two cows out of the seven. There was only one which might be called
a steer, but it was not full grown at all, and the others were undersized
and meageriu flesh. *  * *  My esfimate was 450 pounds gross, just
as they stood. The estimate of the other gentlemen was smaller, and
the total added up and divided by the number was, I think, some 358
pounds gross." It turns out after all, notwithstanding the testimony
of these gentlemen and their certificate, that the 358 pounds represeiited
the net weight and not the gross. Captain Mix, who also signed the
certificate, says, in his testimony, (p. 512:)
I should explain to the commission that tlie estimate which we made there of the weight
of the cattle was an estimate of their net weight.  But Mr. Hay thought we were estiu~atlug on the gross weight, and his figures were not changed, because we thought the matter
might be inquired into, and it would not look well to change the figures.  For this reason
tlie average net weight was increased about thirty pounds, I think; and therefore this average we made of 358 pounds was the net weight, and not the gross weight.
If we correct the error which Captain Mix says arose from Lieutenant ll~y's mode of estimating, and deduct thirty pounds, which is manifestly too great aii amount, from the 358 pounds net, we have 328
pounds net, or 656 pounds gross, for these very poor cattle, the remainder of a herd.
N\~e think the certificate of the Army officers suffers much by the correction of Captain Mix.  N\Te can hardly conceive of a less reliable mode
of ascertaining either the itet or gross weight of any herd of cattle than
that adopted by these gentlemen. That out of several hundred delivered, seven cattle might be found which would not average more than
650 to 700 pounds, is a f~ct which we think may have existed, and yet
the whole average for six mouths be as great as the receipts of Dr. Saville show. The fact tJ)at cattle of the description of these seven head
~vill average in the neighborhood of 700 pounds per head, may serve to
assist us in determining what herds of fi~ll-grown cows and steers, four
years old and upward, in fair condition, ought to average.
The following affidavit is in point:
STATE OF IOWA,
Woodbnry County, ss:
I, Cornelius McNamara, of Wood bury County, Iowa, heing duly sworn according to law,
declare and say that, iu the month of November, J874, I was employed at Red Cloud agency
as chief herder, under J. J. Saville, United States Indian agent; that after the issue of beefcattle, of November 2,1874, there remained on the range two milch-cows, two yearliiig calves,
and four head of poor cattle, which the agent, J. J. Saville, told me not to issue to the Indians, as he intended to reject them from the receipts of the contractor; that one of said
cows was afterward killed by a bank falling upon her; that two of said four cattle were
crippled in some manner before being turned over to me, supposed to have been crippled in
weighing; that both of said cattle (steers) afterward died, one from its injuries and the other
from some other cause; that I killed one of the calves and used the meat for the herders at
the herding camp; that the remaining cow was killed by the fodians, and the remaining
calf and two poor steers I gave to the Indians, making no count or char~e for them.
CORNELIUS McNAMARA.
Subscribed and sworn to before me and in my presence by Cornelius McNamara, at Sioux
City, Iowa, this 23d day of August, A. D. 1875.
E.B. SPALDING,
Clerk District Court in and for Jfoodbury County, Iowa. 
XX~
Piofessor ~Iarsh makes the charge that on tlie 4tli day of November
Di'. Saville received and receipted for several hundred head of Texas
cattle, at. an average weight of 1,043 pounds, and issued them to the Indians, while the true weight did not exceed, in his judgment, 750 pounds,
which he considered a liberal esti in ate.  lle says that all the cattle of
this herd " were wretchedly gaunt and thin, and a m9jority of them
were small, many of them being yearlings.  A large number of them
were of the kind known among cattle men as`scalawags,' and not a few
of them were weak and decrepit."
The testimony on this subject is very voluminous, and involves the
general question of the weight of Texas cattle when weighed directly off
the range, as is the present and in fact the only possible system with the
facilities 110W at the command of the Indian agents iii that country.  In
Army contracts it is usual to require that cattle shall be "lotted,"' that
is, kept from food and water tw~lve hours before weighing, and yards
or corrals for that purpose are provided.  A similar rule govcnis the delivery of beef at the great beef-markets of the country, but at' the Indian agencies no such rule has ever been adopted, nor can it be until the
Govern in ent shall erect corrals of sufficient capacity to hold the large
herds which are required to su~)~)ly the Indians.
The Department, contractors, and all persons concerned understand
that beef for the Sioux Jndians is to be delivered 011 tlie hoot' directly
"off' grass and water." The difibrence in weight of an ox "off grass
and water" and oiie which has been lotted twelve hours is diff'ereiitly
estimated at from 50 to 100 pounds.  An ox which would weigh 1,050
pounds "off' grass an~i water," would weigh from 950 to 1,000 pounds if
lotted twelve hours; and if shipped a long way by rail, the shrinkage
would be much greater. This difference is well understood by inei~ who
take Indian contracts, and they are thereby enabled to piit their
price so much under that at which lotted cattle are furnished, as to lead
men i~ot familiar with the subject to tliiiik and say that such a coiitract
caiinot tie honestly filled without loss. The practice of receiving and
weighing beef cattle at the Indian agencies without a previous "lotting"'
has probably resulted in little if any real loss to the Government, since
contracts have been made with a full understanding that tlie price must
be put low enough to cover the diffbrence of weight. But the practice
adniits into every coiitract for beef too large an eleineiit of uncertainty
to be consisteiit with souiid business methods. Taking 50 ponuds as a
fair average of the amount added to the weight of an animal that is'
wei~hed directly "off' grass aii~l water," the Goverumetit pays animally,
on the 30,000 cattle required to snpply the Sioux agencies, for 1,500,000
ponnds of grass and water, trusting to pro~~nre the whole supply at a
rate si~fti)cienfly low to balance tlie loss. At $L~.46~ per 100 pounds this
amounts to $36,975, which is plainly too large an element of uncertainty.
~Ve think that if it should be stipulated iii all future coutracts that all
beef-cattle received at the agency shall be "lotted," or, where this is inipossible for the waiit of the iiecessary inclosures, that some fixed amount
be dedueted from the gross weight of each animal, bidders would be
placed upoii fairer terms of equality, and increased conipetition ~`ould
result.  ~\~e tliiiik it proper here to state that we eiitered into this investigation with the idea stroiigly impressed oil our minds that iio ordinary herd of Texas cattle coul~l average anythiiig like a thousand
poyinds.  On our wQy froni Cheyenne to i~ed Cloud we saw cattle of
this class, and their weight was a matter of discussion aniong soin e of the
niembers of the coiniuissioii, and they were of the opiiiion that froni 750
to ~50 pounds would be a good average.  N\Te were noiie of us prepared for' 
XXXI
the actual demonstration which we witnessed.  ~~e arrived at Red Cloud
on the 8th of August; the 9th and 10th were speiit in investigations and
in witnessing issues of provisions. On the 11th, a herd of 377 cattle
was driven up to the agency for issue. ThQy arrived at about 9 o'clock
a. m., and the commission repaired to the corral to witness the process
of weighing and issuing. The scales were exaniined by the commission,
and balanced by one of the number before the work began. All the 377
cattle were weighed, except three powerful and wild steers, the last of
the herd, which jumped from one division of the corral to the other,
breaking, as they passed, large rails which formed a part of the partition.  The whole were weighed in one hour and twenty minutes, or at
the rate of about four and a half per minute.  One of the commissioners
took the weight of each draught from the scale-beai~~, the other members being present and carefully watching the proceedings.  A complete
copy of the record made 011 the spot will be found in the appendix.
The average of the herd was 1,053 pounds, and it will be seen that
In any of them weighed more than 1,200 pounds, and a few probably more
than 1,300 pounds.  They were all driven from Texas during the last
spring, and arrived on the Platte during June and July.  ~Vitli this evidence the question of the possibility of a contractor being able to deliver
cattle of the weight of 1,O()O pounds and upward would seem to be settled. But that we might be certain that this hei~d bad not been selected for the occasion, three days later, 011 our way to Spotted T('t~l, we
made a detour of about thirty-five miles and visited the contractor's
herd on the Niobrara River.  That herd contained about 5, 50() head, and
they were of the same class and of about the sanie average size and
weight as those we had seeu delivered ou the 11th.  N\re caused them
all to be driven before ns, and two of the commissioners also rode
through them, as they were scattered over the plain, careflil ly noticing
many hu~idreds; and we became fully satisfied that the 377 delivered at
the agency were no more than a fair sample of the larger herd.  A few
of the cattle were small; but they were generally mature and of a full
age.  An occasional calf by the side of its mother was seen, and a few
y~arlings; but we should say of the whole iiumber, there were altogether
less than fifty that c~uld be classed as "scalawags," or inferior, or of
light weight, and we suppose that no herd so large would be without as
many.  If the cattle which we saw were a fair sample of the cattle
which have been delivered to the indians of Red Cloiid and Spotted
Tail agencies during the last three years, the Indian and his friends
have little cause to complain; and we eartiestly wish that all the laboring p~ople of the country could be as well a~id as liberally supplied.
The Foreman contract for 1874-'75 covers six agelicies as before stated,
and it appears that there were delivered the ft)llowiitg cattle:
Number of  Pouuds           Amount.  General
Agency.           head.      gross.                    average.
Yanktou                      1. 120 1,021 2O~     $23. 491 41    911 ~~~
C5~O11)1jC~g~~~k0~~          1,935 1,737 COO        3~),  679  S~~i?{3'~
5,(41 4,911,630       112,9b3 35 974f;-~$
Cheyenne                   3, 959    4, t)t)~, 545.)2 209 90   1012j3(~7~~
Spotted Tail                 7, 3~   7, 350, 756    ~2, 65359   995
Red Cloud                   9,423    9,576.9~3     249,529 41   1Ol6~~-~~~
Total                            25, SC-S  25;w06 152 $700, 554 45
Tlie average weight on whole coutract being 911,937s2~
At the request of the commissioners, Mr. Bosler presented for their 
XXXII
private use an abstract from  his books for that year.  The commissioners feel themselves justified in extracting from it so much as shows his
purchases of cattle.  The total number was, of beeves, 22,225; and of
cows, 7,665; making a total of 29,890.
There can be little doubt that Mr. Bosler bought for filling this conftac~ the large number of 29,880 head, of which he delivered 28,885
head; showing a loss of 995 head.
This abstract furnishes us with the exact cost of every animal, the
cost of herding, and all incidental expenses, including interest on the
capital invested, and the iiet receipts on the contract.  ~Ye find from the
testimony of numerous witnesses familiar with the subject, thnt the
prices shown by said abstract to have been paid for these cattle were
the ruling prices in that country during that year.  It appears from all
sources, and there is no dispute upon the point, that during the spring
and summer of 1874 the market.price of through Texas cattle delivered
on the Platte was, for cows, froin $10.59 to $12 per head; and for beeves,
from $16 to $18 per head.  It should also be stated here that the first
contract was for 22,500,000 pounds of beef, at $2.303\~ per hundred pounds,
and that after that amount had been furnished the contractor was called
upon to furnish 25 per cent. in excess of that anjount, as his contract
provided he should do upon proper notice.  But the notice was not
given, as it should have been, in season to enable the contractor to purchase tlie required amount at tlie ordinary market-rates, but at a time
when, his own stock having been exhausted, he would be obhged to go
into the market and obtain the required supply at very much advanced
rates.  He claimed that the notice was not given in season, and refused
to comply with the request.  llis position was deemed to be tenable and
legal.  Under the stress of these circumstances a new contract was entered into March 17, -1875, with the approval of tiie Board of Indian
Commissioners, l~y which he agreed to furnish the additioiial anioniit required at $3 per hundred pounds.  Under these two co~itracts 28,865
head of cattle were furnished, weighing 28,606,152 pounds.  It has been
shown heretofore that tlie average weight for the year was 991 pountls.
It would require, therefore, to fill the first contract, 22,704 cattle or
thereabouts, disi~garding fractious, and 6,161 to fill the second contract.
If we assume that the cattle furnished were oiie-fourth cows and threefourths beeves, and that the price for cows and beeves furnished under the first contract was-cows, $12, an~l beeves, $18, and that for all
cattle furnished under the second coiitract the contractor paid an average
of $20 per head, which from evidence in our possession is probably nearly correct, we have the       of determining the probable cost of the
cattle to the contractor.  If, as seems to be true, the cost of herding is
$2 per head, allowing the contractor interest on his investment for onehalf the year at ten per cent., we have all the means iiecessary to determine the probable net profits on the contract, and the account may
be stated as follows, viz:
5,676 cows, at $12 ---                               $68, 112 00
17,028 beeves, at $18                                306, 504 00
6,161 cattle, at $20                              123, 22() 0O
Cost of herding, at $2 per head                    57, 7J'0 00
Total investineiit                                 555, 566 00
Interest on investment, six months, at ten per cent 27, 778 30
Total cost                                         583, 344 30
Net profits                                       1 17, 510 18
Total cost to the Government. - -                 700, 854 48 
XXXIII
With full compliance with the contracts of 1874-'75, we are satisfied,
from all the evidence, that the above sum of $117,510.18, at least, was
possible as net profit to the contractor, assuming that he lost by accident, disease, and Indian raids 995 bead, which is the number purchased
by him in excess of what he turned over and was paid for, and which
were lost by him.  This would seem to dispose of the question as to the
number of cattle delivered by the contractor.  When we come to consider the weight of the cattle delivered, we are met with the remarkable fact that the average weight for the year at each of the six agencies
is very nearly the same, or that the difference is but slight and accounted for.  The average for the year at Red Cloud was 1,017 pounds;
at Cheyenne River, 1,013-a difference of four pounds.  At Spotted
Tail, 995, a difference of 22 pounds.  At Yank ton, 912 pouiids, a difference of 105 pounds.  At Standing Rock, 974 pounds, a difference of 43
pounds. At Crow Creek, 898, a difference of 119 poutids.  At the Crow
Creek agency, December 23, 1874, as appears on Page.374, 770 head of
cattle, averaging 777 pounds, were delivered.  It is in evidence that
these were small cattle, in tended for grazing, and constituted the
largest herd delivered there during the year, and greatly reduced the
average at that agency-the other four averages fou that year at that
agency being, respectively, 1,045, 930, 960, and 1,005 pouuds.  It is also
in evidence that at the Yank ton and Standing Rock agencies, smaller
cattle were generally preferred by the agent.  It is also in evidence that
the best feeding-ground for cattle is on the Platte River, which accounts,
in a measure, for the difference in the weight of herds delivered at Red
Cloud and Spotted Tail, as compared with those delivered at Yankton,
Crow Creek, and Standing Rock.
It is apparent from these facts that if great frauds in weight have
been perpetrated at Red Cloud, similar frauds must have been perpetrated at all the other agencies; and to assume this requires that we
should find as a fact that all these six agents, their clerks and assistants, the contractor and his associates, assistants, and herders were
combined and confederated and actuated by a coin mon purpose to cheat
both the Indians and the Government, and all shared directly or in directly in the benefits of the fraud.  It may be in accordance with the
current of present popular feeling to adopt this conclusion, but. dealing,
as we are, with proofs, we are forced to say that the facts do not support it.
It has been asserted by witnesses of much intelligence and undoubted
honesty, that the presumption of fraud was justified by the very low
price at which the contract was taken this year-$2.46~ per 100
pounds-and that no man could honestly fill the contract without loss
but we think the evidence printed herewith demonstrates that the contrary is true, and that a very large profit may be legitimately realized.
We have previously seen that a herd of nearly 6,000 cattle is being this
year delivered to the agencies, which actually average more than 1,000
pounds each.  These cattle were bargained for in April last, while on
their way to the Platte River, at $ 12 per head for cows and $20 per head
for beeves.  Not more than one-fourth of thern were cows.  The contract for this year is for 32,500,000 poun~ds of beef for the Sioux agencies.  It we assume that 32,500 head of cattle will be required to fill
the contract, we have the following result:
3,125 cows, at $12                                  $97, 500
24,375 beeves, at $20                               487, 500
3IF 
XXXIV
Cost of. herding 32,500 head of cattle, at $2          $65, 000
Total investment                                 $650, 000
Interest on one-half amount at 10 per cent             $32, 500
Total cost..                                         $6S2, 500
Thirty-two million five hundred thousand pounds of beef at $2.46~
per 100 pounds, amounts to $801,125.  The difference is a net profit of
$118,625.
Under the contract of A. II. ~Vilder, G. ~I. Dodge, and J. ~Y. L.
Slaveiis for furnishing beef for the Sioux agencies, for 18 73-'75, there were
furnished to the several agencies the number of animals of the total
weight and at the prices herewith named:
Agency.           Number   ~Veight, in  Average  Amount paid.
of head.  pounds.   ibs.
Red Cloud            ~.. - 11.713 11,843,635  1,011  $322,649    03
~~hetstone                   8,05~  ~,129,433 1,009   221,527    03
Yankton                     2,299  2,203,416    958    60,592    06
Santee                  -     627    544,185    867    15,033    09
Cheyenne River              4,678  4,578,495    979       126,47881
Crow Creek and Grand River 9, 314  9,172,766    984   250,414    43
36,689 36,471,930    994     $996,694 45
The price for cows that year was about $15, and for beeves $21.
Making use of the rule adopted for the foregoing calculations, we have
the following results:
Oue-fourth, or 9,172 cows, at $15                 $137, 580     00
Three-fourths, or 27,517 bee ves, at $21            577,857     00
Herding, at $2 per head                              73,378     00
Total in~estment.                                        788,815 00
Interest six months on investment, at 10 per cent....... 39,440 75
Total cost                                               828,255 75
Net profits                                              168,438 70
Total                                              996, 694 45
This sum being paid to the contractors.
It will be seen from the foregoing that with a faithful compliance with
the terms of the contract it is not only possible, but practicable, to realize
profits which of themselves, and without the hope or expectation of any
illicit or fraudulent gains, are sufficient to satisfy the cupidity of any
ordinary man, and to justify the risk and labor of the enterprise.  And
it will assist this view if we recall the fact that herders in that country
have free and unrestricted use of uuexcelled and almost boundless
grazing lands.
It is condusively shown by the printed testimony that the ordinary
price for through Texas cattle at the present time is as follows: Full.
grown cows are $12, and oxen and steers, four years and upward,
are $20.  It is shown that for cattle one, two, and three years old the 
xxxv
market is found among the stock-raisers of Kansas and Nebrask~, who
hold them in the country unfil they are full grown, thereby getting their
increase in growth and flesh.  The cows are kept for breediiig, and the
steers and oxen, when fully grown and fattened, are shipped to Chicago
and the eastern markets as fat beef.
In passing it will be proper to say that it is clearly for the interest of
a contractor furuisl~itig beef for the Indians to purchase the largest
cattle the market affords, since lie buys by the head, without reference
to size, and sells wholly by weight.  lle could ill afford to turii iu young
cattle, costing as above, if the larger cattle were accessible.  As ~Ir.
Bosler is represented as a very shrewd and accomplished bu~iiiess in an,
it can hardly be supposed that he fails to seek the cattle which will yield
to him the largest profit.
In addition to the foregoii~g evidence upon the subject of weights, the
agent and his clerk, and all persons familiar with the facts, declare that
during the years in question all cattle have been received and receipted
for at their actual weights and numbers.  Upon this subject, also, we
have the testimony of cattle-dealers and men of experience iii the
trade.  Amoiig them  is Jauies F. Ellison, of Texas, one of the largest
cattle-dealers in the country.  lle testifies as follows, (pages 521, 522,
and 52J':)
I sold cattle to Mr. Bosler last year.  1 sold him about seven thousand head last year
They were for the Indian contract.  I delivered part of them on the Platte and part of them
on the Missouri River for the Indian contract.  They were Texas cattle, cows and beeves;
mostly beeve~.  By beeves I mean four years old and upward. Anything under that would
he considered stock-cattle in the beef-market.  *    *    *  I have seen a good many
cattle weighed, and I would estimate those cattle which I delivered to Mr. Boswell last
year from 9.50 to 1,050 pounds, making a full average of 1,000 pounds.   *    *    *  I
never sold any young cattle to him, because I had contracts for young cattle with other parties, and I never delivered him anything but cows and beeves.
~Ir. D. II. Snyder, of Texas, also a heavy cattle-dealer, testifies as
follows, (pages 577 and 579:)
Q.Did you ever sell Mr. Bosler any cattle?
A.I never sold him many. I sold him about 1,500 in the spring of 1873, and I sold
him 750 last year. Most of the stock which I have driven here has been the class of stock
which was better for grazing than that which he could pay for, and was younger stock than
he wanted. The class of cat~le I sold him in i~73 were beeves and cows, three years old,
and in 1874 they were all cows.
Q.Were there among those cattle any yearlings or two-year-olds?
A.No, sir. In the fall of 1873 1 drove the cattle on the range and wintered them; they
were beeves, cows, and two-year-olds, and held them until the next season.  He refused
to take the two-year-olds. We had at that time 4,000 cattle in Idaho, and I was trying to
close them out to go out there.
Q.Could you form an estimate of the weight of the cattle you sold him in 1873, and of
thecowsin 1874?
A.I could not form an estimate, because I did not see the cattle at all.  I got here about
the middle of January, and George Bosler came on after that; but I was taken sick.  After
I began to get well Geor~e Busier came in, and I sold him the cattle while sick iu bed. The
cattle were in good condition, but I could form no estimate of their weight.  I saw some of
the cattle which were left, and they were in good condition. The cattle which were left
were young cattle.  My meu told me that the cattle which George Bosler got would make
good beef.  It was the first year which we had wintered cattle here, and we were struck
with the fact that the cattle had done so well here in the winter-better thau we had anticipated.  The cows I sold him in 1874 were a good square lot of cows.  I had bought a lot of
cattle and sold the cows, and kept the younger cattle.  I suppose the cows should weigh
about 850 pounds.  When I sold them they were just off the trail.  They were a superior
lot of cows, because they were old cows.  I sold them in August or September.  *  *  *
Q.~Vhat would be your estimate of the average weight of beeves, four years old, and
upward, driven from Texas here and delivered on the Platte, and weighed from the range?
A.That would vary in the way the cattle were delivered.  In other words, you take a lot
of cattle, handled well, and they would average better than others. An average drove would
average from 1,000 to 1,050, and that depends, too, somewhat upon the part of country they come from.  If they came from Western Texas they would run from 1,000 to 1,050.
Get them from the extreme eastern part of Texas they would not weigh more than 900 pounds.
But there are no cattle driven from there now. 
xxxv'
~tr. J. ~V. Iliff, of Denver, a stock-raiser and dealer in cattle, also testifies, (page 582:)
Q.Have you ever seen any cattle sold to Mr. Bosler for the Tndian agencies ~
A.None at all this year.  I saw some this year which had not been turned over yet, but
they were intended for him.  They were Mabry's and Littlefield's. I saw them at Ogalalla
on the South Platte.  I saw Mr. Littlefield's as they were said to be turned over.  They
were coming on the road to be turned over to Bosler's herd on the way to the agency.  I
should judge there were in that herd from fifteen hundred to two thousand.  They were
all steers, I think.  I don't ~emember seeing any cows.  I thought the general appearance of that herd was very good. They were in a good condition to have come through from
Texas.  I remarked at the time that those cattle were in a better condition than cattle are
generally coming through from Texas.  From what I saw of that herd I would put them
above the average, and think they would go from 950 to I 000 pounds.  I give this as my
general opinion, without having examined them so carefully as if I was going to purchase,
and, therefore, hesitate somewhat in giving this opinion.  I bought of Mabry & Millett six
thousand young cattle out of their herds, one, two, and three years old steers. The larger
cattle or steers I understood would go to Bosler.
Mr. Seth Mabry, the person in whose name this year's contract was
taken, and one of the largest cattle-dealers in Texas, who, with his associates, drove to that market 60 000 bead of cattle this year, testifies
as follows, (pages 527 and 528:)
Q.Did your firm sell to Bosler some cattle last seasou I
A.Yes, sir.  We sold him, I think, about five or six thousand cattle-the firm of Mabry
& Millett.`They were every one beeves but three hundred, aud I sold him three hundred
cows.  They were e~ ery one four-~ear-old cattle that 1 sold bim last season.  I have
been weighing cattle ever since I have been here, pretty much every season. Since 1866 1
have been buying and selling cattle.  The weight of what we term fresh cattle depends
upon the way you weigh them   The rule in buying here is to lot them for twelve
hours before weighing them, then they would weigh considerably less than if weighed
right off the ranch. If th~y were to be weighed that way, I should estimate the cattle to
weigh from nine hundred and fifty pounds to ten hundred and fifty, just owing to where those
cattle can~e from in Texas.  When you get west of the San Antonio River, ~nd go into the
mountain region, the cattle are very large-from nine hundred and fifty to ten hundred and
fifty, weighed right off the ranch.  I have no hesitancy in saying so, for the rea~on that I
filled those contiacts in 1871 on tlie Missouri, and I had a hard time. The weight of my
beef-cattle averaged a good deal more than a thousand pounds a;l the way through.  In the
fall-in September, October, and November-there were a good many of these cattle that
weighed as high as thirteen hundred pounds, and in the spring they ran down to seven or
eight hundred; that is, the cattle furnished for the Yankton and San tee Indians.  I have no
hesitancy in saying that in this country, in ordinary seasons, the same grade of cattle would
weigh from nin(3 hun~red and fifty to ten hundred and fifty pounds.  I think the difference
between lotting them for twelve hours and weighing them off grass and water would be
seventy-five pounds.
Q.Where did you deliver the cattle you sold last year to Bosler I
A.I delivered most of them up here for Red Cloud agency.  I think I delivered three
thousand here and three thousand on the Missouri River, on what is called`Sugar Creek," on
the west side, for all those agencies on the Missouri River.  We sold the Boslers this year
about twenty-four thousand.  I delivered the biggest portion of them here on the Platte for
these two agencies, Spotted`fail and Red Cloud; about twelve thousand here and the rest
at the other a~encjes.
As further evidence bearing upon the question of the actual weight of
the cattle delivered dunug these years it may be well to refer to the
reports of the several investigators who have preceded us.  Mr. Samuel
~Valker who in a manner investigated the affairs of Red Cloud
agency w'ithin ninety days after Dr. Saville took possession, before any
buildii~gs had been completed, and when the (~overnment property and
Indian supplies were piled up on the prairies, covered only with`panlins,
stat~s in his report that "on the 18th of ~ovember, 1873, 410 beeves, averaging 967 pounds, were received and issued."  As he states that he
`was present and assisted in the weighing of this herd, we may receive
this as a fact proved by his testimony.
The report of the commission of which Bishop llare was chairman,
niade to the Secretary of the Interior in April, 1874, which will be found 
xxxv"
printed at page 807, says, in reference to the subject of beef, (page 816:)
"The commission took particular pains to inquire into the quality and
weight of the beef furnished by the contractor during the current fiscal
year.  The testimony of many witnesses and the personal observation of
the members of the commission convince them that the cattle have been
remarkably excellent in quality, size, and condition, and that their average weight has been on the whole considerably above that required by
the contract." The high character of the gentlemen who composed that
commission renders their testimony of great value and importance.
In the September following, Indian Inspector J. D. Bevier made a
thorough inspection of affairs at the Red Cloud agency.  His report is
printed in full at page 819. In that report be says, (page 820:)
In this connection it is but fair to say that the herd, spoken of as the best ever bronght
into the State of Nebraska, I found, as far as I could j~idge, as good as could be, nearly
uniform in size, steers said to be from four to eight years of age, all in good condition.  There
were a few cows, but as they are sold by weight, ai~d always preferred by the Indians, I
know of no objection to them.
Dr. Bevier came before the commissioners, and npoi~ this point declared his report to be "strictly true." To the charges made by Mr.
~Valker replies were made in writing by Agents J.,I. Saville and E. A.
Howard, which are printed on pages 822 and 844.
N\~e have thus far called attention to the testimony going to sustain
thu theory that all the beef receipted for was actually received by the
agent. The testimony tending to sustain ai~ opposite theory and the
charges of Professor Marsh, though of a different character, merits careful attention.  Professor Marsh says, in stating his own persolial knowledge, (page 12:)
On the morning of November 14, while I was at the Red Cloud agency, Mr. Bosler, one
of the contractors, brought to the agency a herd of several hi~ndred head of Texas cattle,
the first that had been received for some weeks previons.  This lot was accepted by the
agent and receipted for, but he only weighed a portion of the herd.  These cattle I saw and
carefully examined.  Maj. A. S. Burt, of the Ninth Infantry, who commanded the escort
to my expedition, was with me at the time and also examined them with care.  They were
tlie poorest lot of Texas cattle I have ever seen during all my experience in the West, wh~e
I have seen many hundreds of herds, at varions points between this agency and Southern
Kansas, and have myself purchased many animals for the use of my expeditions.  All the
cattle in this herd were wretchedly gaunt and thin, and the majority of them were small,
many being yearlings.  A large number were of the kind known among cattle~meu as
"scalawags," and not a few were weak and decrepit.  I noticed the character of these
cattle particularly, because the beef issued at this agency had been the subject of several
conversations between Red Cloud, General Bradley, and myself, and I was desirous of
knowing with certainty whether the statements of the chief on this point were true.  In
the afternoon of the same day that the cattle were received, Novem~er 14, 1 witnessed, in
company with Maj. A. S. Bt~t, the issue of beet, when a large portion of these cattle were
delivered to the Indians.  This delivery was made from the agency corral, and the cattle
were turned out, a small number at a time, to the chiefs or headmen, who were waiting
with their mounted young warriors to pursue and kill them.  I watched this issue with
much interest from first to last, and saw every one of the cattle that were turned over to the
Indians, as well as the remainder of the herd retained for a subse(iuent issue.  I am confident that the average weight of this herd was not more than 750 pounds, and this I regard
as a liberal estimate.
The same statement in substance was made by him in various parts
of his testimony, which accompanies this report.  Had the Prof~ssor
been present at the corral an hour or two earlier on the day of the issue
and obsei'ved the actual weight of the cattle, he would~have escaped the
possibility of error, and we should itow have the means of settling this
qnestion without the liability of mistake.  As it is, we must determine it upon the preponderance of testimony.  We present, also, the
testimony of the different persons who saw the herd which was delivered
on the 14th November, who may be supposed to have no personal
Interest in the subject; and it will be interesting to notice how differ 
xxxv"'
ently different persons, who were present at the time, with equal opportunities for observation, viewed the matter.  Mr. I. W. French, of
Cheyenne, who saw the cattle weighed, and watched the issue to the
Indians, testifies as follows, (page 161:)
A.      *    *  I was there, (it was on the 14th of November, the same time that Professor ~iarsh was tl'ere,) sitting in a huggy.
Q. Did you see the cattle?
A. I did, sir; I saw them in the corral, and as they left the corral, and saw some of them
shot.
Q. What could you say of them?
A. I could only say I was a good deal surprised at the report in the New York papers, and
-the report that Professor Marsh made of the cattle heing poor, a scrubby lot of cattle.  They
did look to me at that time, while in the corral, a little ragged, from the fact that it was a stormy
day.  There was a good deal of rain and snow on them, and the hair was wet, and their
frames were more prominent than they would have otherwise looked, and they did look a little
gaunt; hut I didn't consider that as anything particular  they had not had any water,
probably, for some hours, but the average condition I thought was
Q. What as to weight or size?  Do you know anything ahout the weight of cattle?
A. I am not a judge, particularly, not sufficient to average a herd of cattle within fifty
or a hundred pounds in each head of cattle.
Q. You say to "average"them; do you understand that to he the system-that the cattie are averaged?
A. No, sir; you speak of the whole as a unit, as I understand yo~).
Q. Yes; I had asked you what their size was. What was tlie heaviest ox you saw there,
according to your best judgment?
A. Twelve hundred pounds.
Q. And what the lightest?
A. I should not like to put my opinion against anything of that sort; I didn't give it
special attention; they were large Texas cattle; had very large horns, and I regarded them
as an average lot of Texas cattle.
Q. Do you know whether they were fat cattle or lean?
A. I regarded them as an average lot of cattle.  I did not look upon them as stall-fed
cat'le or very poor-a good average lot of cattle for that time of year; they naturally would
be good at that time of year.  I did not regard them at all as an especially poor lot of cattle,
that is, poor in flesh.
Q. Did you have any conversation with Professor ~Iarsh on that day?
A. Yes, sir; considerahie.
Q. Upon the subject of these supp1ie~?
A. No, sir; not on that subject.  We were talking bones at that time; he was a bone
sharp, and I was interested particularly with him in getting hones for him.
Q. But in reference to the distribution of supplies or annuity goods, or anything else upon
the subject, did youJiave any conversation with him?
A. I don't know that I did, any more than he was expressing himself with a degreeofsurprise; it was the first time he had ever seen anything so wonderful as what he was looking
at at that time there.
Q. Did he comment upon any part of tlie distribution as wrong or irregular?
A. No, sir; not to me at that time.  He didn't seem to express himself that he was discovering any frauds or anything of that sort at all.
Jules Ecoffee, whom Professor Marsh referred us to as a reliable man,
tesfifi~s as foliows, (page 215:)
Q. Do you remember Professor Marsh; did you ever see him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you meet him theie?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see any cattle issue~ ut the time he was there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What kind of cattle were they?
A. They were over the usual average.
Q. Would those cattle you saw issued on that occasion average 1,000 pounds all round?
A. Well, they might, hut I don't believe they would.  They were larger than those they
generally issued.
William Rowland, an interpreter for the Cheyenne Indians, testifies,
(page 244:)
Q. Were you he~e in November, 1874; the time that Professor Marsh was here?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were yoii pr~sent at the issue of beef, about the 8th or 14t11 of November, 1874? 
XXXIX
A. Yes, sir; I have be~n at every beef issue; I guess I have not missed one since Ijhave
been here  It is part of my business to be here to interpret for the Indians in receiving
their beef.
Q. As you have seen all these issues of beef generally, were the cattle issued at:that time
of similar quality to those issued before and since?
A. Well, yes; I don't think, the way the beef has run, as a general thing, (except about
two issues last winter, during that cold weather, when it was a little thin and poor,) that
they have been any different.  Most of the time we have what we call good beef here.
Louis Reshaw, the half-breed, testifies as follows, (page 467:)
Q.~Vere you out at the corral?
A.I was not at the scales; they were weighed when I got there, I guess; I guess
they must have been, for they issued them right out.
Q.Mr. Reshaw, what kind of cattle were those th~t were issued on that occasion?
A.They were small cattle; the most of them were not fit for beef.
Q.Have you had experience in the weighing of cattle, so that you could give an estimtite
of the average weight of those cattle?
A.I could not do it, because I have not been around when the cattle have~been weighed.
Q.But have you seen other cattle weighed?
A.I have seen big beef-cattle weighed.
Q.Well, has your observation among cattle been such that you could state something
near what would be the probable average weight of those cattle?
A.It would be pretty hard for me to say that; I could not very well te 1.  1 would have
to guess at it; but they were mighty small cattle.
Q.And are you not sufficiently acquainted with the average weight of such cattle as to
be able to say what those would probably weigh-to hazard an opinion on the subject?
A.No, sir.
Major A. S. Burt, of the Nilltli I'ifautry, stationed at Fort Laramie,
testifies, (page 517:)
Q.You belong to the ~inth Infantry, I believe?
A.Yes, sir.
Q ~1ajor, were you present at the issue of cattle by the Indian agent at Red Cloud
agency on the 14th of November last?
A.I don't know the date, sir; but I was present at an issue of cattle by Dr. Saville, in
November last.  Professor Marsh was with me.  He rode down there with me.
Q.There is a certificate made by you, in which you state that the cattle you saw at that
time were Texas cattle, miserably poor, some of them so weak the Indians could not goal
them out of a walk, and the cattle were, as a rule, small in size.
A.Yes, sir; I remember such a certificate as that.
Q.Can you form any estimate of the number of cattle in the herd?
A.No, sir; the corral was lull; there was barely room for a man to go round and drive
them out when they issue~ them.  I don't know how many, but enough to make an issue
at that agency. I don't know anything about the number so as to fix it in my mind. I was not
there as an investigatin~ committee, but simply went with Professor Marsh to see the issue, as to how it was done. I did not fix in my mind any number, but remember the condition of the cattle was poor.
Q.What do you mean by saying that they were in miserable condition?
A.I mean that they were walking skin and bones.  This observation applies to them generally.  I could not say that every one was skin and bones; but my general observation of
the cattle was that they were mere skin and bones; that is, very poor.
Q Do you remember whether the majofl~ty were steers or cows?
A.No, sir, I could not tell whether tl~ey were or not.
Q.You spoke of some of then being so weak that the Indians could not run them. About
how many did you observe in that condition?
A.I could not say; but that fact impressed itself upon my mind, because, as you remember, the Indians slaughter most of their cattle on the ground, and they drive them out; and
in order to get them to run they would start them with their goads; and in several cases they
could not make the cattle go out of a walk, and the impression on my mind was that it was
because they were so poor.  I could not say how many cases of this kind there were.  I
could not fix any number.
Q.Do you know liow far these cattle had been driven the day before the issue?
A.No, sir; I don't know anything about these cattle, except that I went there with Professor Marsh, simply to see them.  I did not know how long they had been without food
and water.  The weather was not very severe; that is, if you mean for the cattle.  There
was no snow on the ground that day.  There might have been snow in the gullies.
Q.lIad it not been snowing or raining for one or two days before?
A.It could not have been bad weather, or I would have noticed it, as I was in tents.  I
did not see these cattle weighed; I don't know whether they were weighed; I noticed no
scales at the corral for weighing cattle. 
XL
Q. Are you able to form any estimate of the average weight of the cattle you saw there
that day?
A. No, sir; I cannot.  Nobody can do that unless he weighed the cattle.  I did not do
that.
~Iajor T. II. Stanton, who was also present, testifies as follows, (pages
553 and 557:)
Q. You are paymaster in the Army, I believe?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Major, were you at Red Cloud agency last November?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see the issue of beef made there about the middle of November?
A. No, sir.
Q. Well, did you see the beef-cattle that were received there last Noveinber?
A. I saw some cattle that were there.  I saw the herd which came up to be issued in No
Q. Well, did you observe that herd of cattle?
A. Not specially or particularly; no.
Q. Could you say of the beef-cattle that in any way they were poor and thin?
A. Well, they looked, some of them, thin, but in a fair condition.
Q. What kind of weather was it at that time?
A. Very severe cold weather.  They had a severe snow-storm while I was there.
Q. Did you see the cattle weighed, or any of them?
A No, sir.
Q. Could you be able to say whether those cattle were of average size or not?
A. They were small, thin cattle, that were issued to the tribes there, I remember.
Q. Were they as large as those of the ordinary herds of Texas beef-c~ttle which they have
n this country?
A.  Yes, sir; I shoul~ say they were.          *         *
Q. Was ~Iajor Burt present with you at the time you saw the herd of cattle driven in?
A. I think he was. There was Mi~jor Burt, General Bradley, some officers from the post,
and Professor Marsh.
Q. You described some of these cattle as thin in flesh, but on the whole as fair, in a fair
onditlois?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see any cattle in that h~rd which could be designated properly as walking
skeictons?
A. No, sir.
As against the testimony of the Fairbanks scales, used to weigh the
attle on that day, the conflicting testimony of these gentlemen-few,
if any, of whom over saw a herd of cattle weighed,~and all of whom are
now giving opinions formed casually and incidentally, and with no anticipation of ever making them public-should manifestly be received with
some grains of allowance.  It is well established that that herd was
delivered at a season of the year, of all others, when through Texas cattle are nsually in the best condition, and no reason appears why that
particular herd should be walking "skin and ~~~~~~~ There is, however, the circumstance that the weather was at the time very cold, that
it had been snowing for two days and one night, and that the cattle had
been deprived of food and water during that time, which may account
for their appearance and excuse some of the extravagant statements of
the witnesses above quoted, and which receive no countenance from the
~reat mass of the evidence.
The testimony of Mr. G. ~i. Bosler, the chief herder, on this point, confirmed by many other witnesses, is as follows, (page 485:)
Q. Mr. Bosler, were you present at the delivery of cattle at Red Cloud agency November
14, J~74?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see Professor ~Iansh at or about that time?
A I did not see the Professor at the delivery of the cattle.  I saw him afterward at the
agency.
Q. Did you have any conversation with him about the cattle?
A. No, sir. 
ILl
Q. Was it on the same day as the delivery of the cattle that you saw him at the agency~
A. 1 could not say.
Q. Did he make any remark to you or in your hearing as to the condition of the cattle?
A. No. sir.
Q. Were you the only person iiamed Bosler who was present at this delivery?
A. Yes sir
Q. 1 call your attention to the statement, on page 25 of Professor Marsh's pamphlet
"The cattle of this herd were so wretch~dly poor that even the contractor, Mr. Bosler, deemed
it necessary to apologize for them."  1 want to ask you, did you, to any person, make any
statement respecting the condition of the cattle in the nature of an apology, or explanation,
or excuse?
A. Major Burt came to me and asked me what made the catile look so gaunt. 1 told him
we had driven the cattle in a storm for two days and one night; that they had neither grass
nor water during that time.
Q. Was that statement to Major Burt a correct statement of the fact in the case?
A. Yes, sir; I was merely answering the question.
Q. What was in other respects the condition of those cattle?
A. They were good cattle, out of a herd of 3,000 head like those you have seen this
morning.
Q. Were they as good as those we have seen this morning?
A. Yes, sir; they were fatter cattle, only we had driven them for two days and a night in
a storm, and of course, snowing all the time, as it was, it made them look rough.  They had
no food or water during the time.
Q. How far had you driven them?
A. I had started them from about five miles helow here, where we now are on the Niobrarn; that is, about thirty-five miles from the agency.
Q How happened you to be so long driving them thirty miles?
A. It commened snowing on the morning we started dnving the cattle, and kept snowing
all that day and all that night, and the next morning we got lost, and did not get into the
~gency until night.
It is apparent that the cattle were seeii by Professor Marsh, Major
Burt, Major Stanton, and the others, under most disadvantageous circumstances; and it is more charitable to all concerned, and more consistent with the facts, to conclude that they were misl~d by the rough,
gaunt appearance of the cattle, arising from these causes, rather than
they had misrepresented what they saw, or that the cattle were really
"walking skin and bone." But Professor Marsh ass~rts that Dr. Saville
admitted to him that the cattle received on the 14th of November did not
average more than 850 pounds, and that this admission, in connection
with the undisputed fact that Dr. Saville receipted ft~r them at an average of 1,043 pounds, iscondusive against Dr. Saville arid fully establishes the alleged fraud.  This admission, f~tal to the reputation of Dr.
Saville for honesty and integrity if true, is said to have been made in
Washington iii May last. Professor Marsh states the ~dmission of Dr.
Saville in these words: "Agent Saville was confident that these cattle,
thin as they were, would weigh 850 pounds on an average.  On my
questioning this, he insisted that`those he weighed came up to that
average, and that those estimated were fully as large.  lie himself
weighed all of the herd that were weighed in the morning they arrived.'
Memoraiida of thesestatements of Agent Saville weretakendown at the
time by both Bishop liare and myself; and at a subsequent conference
were found to agre~ ~~`
Tbe attention of Dr. Saville wis called to this statement of Professor
Marsh, and he testified as follows, (page 394:)
Q. In the same connection, Professor Marsh says that "Agent Saville was confident that
these cattle, thin as they were, would weigh 850 pounds on an average." Did you make that
statement to him?
A. I shall have to explain that in the same way, by recalling what was said.  Bishop
Hare asked me if these cattle would weigh, every one, i,000 pounds, and I said, "No; they
would not," and then remarked that the contract did not require them to be 1,000 pounds
in weight; and he asked me how much it was, and I told him 850 pounds; and he turned
to me and said: "Did these cattle average d50 pounds?" asking a general explanation 
XLII
if they came up to the contract. I answered him in three words: "Yes, and more." Those,
I think, were the exact words I used
Q.Did you at auy time claim, in that conversation or any other, that they weighed 850
pounds?
A.No, sir, not fixing the amount; only that they filled the contract.
Professor Marsh having appealed to Bishop llare to corroborate his
version of that conversation, we examin~d the Bishop fully upon the
subject, with the following result.
The foregoiiig extract of the testimony of Dr. Saville was read to
him, and then the question was put to him, (page 606:)
Q.I ask you now if that statement accords with your recollection?
A.I would omit the words, "and more;" hut if I was put on my oath to deny that he
said "and more," I should prefer not saying it, because it is merely a matter of memory,
and a man's character is at stake.
Q.Then, Bishop, how, in other respects, does the statement agree with your recollection?
A.Exactly.
By Mr. MAnsn:
Q.Do you remember his speaking of the "thousand pounds" and "the contract?~`
A.I do.
After Bishop Hare had testified in the presence of Professor Marsb,
and had been cross-examined by him, and after Dr. Saville's statements
and testimony were known to Professor Marsh, he, upon his re-examination, testified as follows, (page 97:)
Q.Do you say, Professor, when Saville said those cattle would weigh 850 pounds, that
he did not say "and more?"
A.I am perfectly confident that he did not say anything of that kind, and that he did
not imply it in anything that he said.
*                    *         *         *         *
Q.Do you remember whether, during the conversation which has b~en referred to, anything was said about the cattle coming up to the contract weight?
A.I won't he positive on that point.
Q.Or whether the fact of their weighing a thousand pounds was mentioned?
A.I feel sure that was not mentioned.
Q.~Vas there any reference made to the contract weights of 850 pounds in the summer
and 1,000 in the winter? Do you differ with the Bishop on that subject?
A.Since the Bishop's statement ~ have thought that over, and don't recall any reference
to that; but yet it niay have been said.
Here are three persons endeavoring to detail a particular con versation.  Bishop Hare and Professor Marsh, to whom no suspicion of improper motives can be imputed, do not remember it alike. Bishop Hare
corroborates Dr. Saville in important particulars, and in those same
particulars differs from Professor Marsh.  He can hardly be said to
contradict Saville at all.  In this confusion we can only determine the
truth by looking at the probabilities.  Dr. Saville had already given a
receipt to the contractor for these cattle at an average of 1,043 pounds,
which had been paid, and which he knew could be lound on file in an
hour by going to the Auditor's Office.  If he had been guilty of defrauding the Goveriiment to the extent claimed he was then conscious of it
and we can h~rdly conceive that he should, under such circumstances,
be weak euough to make the statement ascribed to him by Professor
Marsh, which is in the nature of an admission of his own guilt.  If; as
he claims, he was refufing the charge of Professor Marsh as to the
cattle being small and poor, and was daiming that they were fully up
to the contract requirements, lie not having then before him and not remembering the weights, his statement of the conversation, in part corroborated by Bishop Hare, seems entirely consistent and natural, and 
~LIII
it should be remembered in this connection that Professor Marsh was
at the time assailing the reputation of Dr. Saville for integrity; that
the interview became angry, Saville accusing Marsh on the spot "of
seeking to make a case of fraud against hi in, whether true or not." It
is not impossible that, in his desire to b~ng to light andjust condemnation supposed frauds, he may have unintentionally given a construction
to the i~ngnage of Dr. Saville which was not intended.  The result is,
we are obliged to say, that the evidence fails to show that any ad mission was made or intended by Dr. Saville to the effect that the cattle
delivered on the 14th of November would weigh 850 pounds per head
and no more.  And we think that if Bishop llare and Professor Marsh
so understood him they must have been mistaken.
Professor Marsh calls attention to the statements of Licut. W. L.
Cari)cnter, contained in his letter to the Professor of June 22, 1875,
coi~cerning an issue of beef at Red Cloud agency, May 4, 1875, in which
he says "that the cattle then issued were wretchedly poor and about
half of them ridiculously small; that out of about 200 head which I
saw killed at the time, there were but three oxcn which would be accepted by an Army commissary for issue to troops; there were many
yearlings in the herd which would not net 200 pounds of beef; and, to
the best of my knowledge and belief, the entire herd would not average
seven hundred and fifty pounds gross weight.~~
This statement is followed by the certificate of Louis Reshaw, but we
think his corroboration weakens rather than strengthens the statements
of Lieutenant Carpenter.  We have seen Mr. Reshaw, and are satisfied
that he is capable of gross misrepresentation and falsehood.  Lieutenant
Carpenter gives it as his opinion only, and as we have not been able to
see him, or- ascertain tbe extent of his experience, we are not able to
determine the value of that opinion.  From the favorable terms in which
he is spoken of, we should be inclined to give great weight to any statements that he might make concerning matters within his own knowledge
or experience.  But it has been demonstrated over and over again in
this investigation that the estimate of men riot thoroughly familiar with
the subject concerning the average weights of miscellaneous herds of
cattle are very unreliable.  We have noticed that most of the Army officers estimate gross weights lower than any other class of witnesses, and
yet it appears that the Army system seldom deals with gross weights,
but with net beef on the block, and the Army mode of determining net
weight is different from that usually practiced.  The Army contracts
require that the slaughtered animal, excluding kidney, tallow, shank,
an~l brisket, be weighed to ascertain net beef, and to determine net
weight for cattle on the hoof for the supply of a moving army.  The
system is to kill a few average cattle, and to obtain the net weight by
the above rule.  By this process of excluding tallow, kidney, shanks,
and brisket, from fifty to seventy-five pounds per head is lost from the
llet weight, as usually understood. The experience of Army officers,
therefore, would incline them to estimate cattle on the hoof at less than
their eal weight. The fact that the price paid under Army contracts for
beef in that neighborhood is much higher than that paid for the Indian
supply is in part attributable, doubtless, to the circumstance that, according to Army practice, the net beef bears a smaller proportion to the
gross than elsewhere.
The following is a table kindly furnished us by Maj. John P. llawkins, commissary of subsistence, U. S. A.: 
XLIV
Abstract of contract-prices of fresh beef and beef-cattle furnished the Subsistence Depaflment,
United States Army, in the Depuflrnent of the Platte, during the fiscal years ending June 30,
`74,`75, and`76.
1873-'74.     1874-75.      187.~'76.
Posts.                                                     to
~ n
Bridger,Fort,W.T                          10+   10+       101   9+   12+
Brown, Camp, W.T                          9+    8         10+   8      9     7
Cameron, Fort, U. T                       7+              6+    8+     5. 65 5
7. 12 5 gross   6     5      6      ~
7+              6     6      4.4   5
Fetterman, Fort,W. T                      7. 12 5 gross   8     8      7. 9  7. 9
Laramie,Fort,'v.T                         7.12  5 gross   6.89  6.3    6.34  6
McPherson, Fort. Nebr                     5. 94 5. 75 net 4. 89 4. 89  5. 73 6
North Platte, Nehr -                      5. 88 5. 75 net 4. 84 4. 84 5+
Omaha, Nehr                               8'/is -         7. 9        7+
Omaha Barracks, Nehr                      83As            7. 9        7+
Bobinson, Camp, Nebr                                      9+    9+     8     6
Rosseli, Fort D. A..`V. T                7. 12 5 gross   6.25  5.25   6     5
Sanders, Fort, W. T                       7. 12 5 gross   5. 72 5+     5. 85 5. 85
Sheridan,Camp,Nebr                                        9+    9+     8     6
Sidney Barracks, Nehr                     7. 4  7 net     6. 5  4      6    3+
Stambaugh, Camp W. T                      10+   9 net     15+   8     14     8
Steele, Fort Frsd., W. T                  7. 12 5 gross   6. 95 6+     6. 8  5
I certify that the above abstract is correct.
(Signed)                                    JOHN P. HAWKINS,
Major C. S., U. S. A.
It appears by the foregoing abstract that the price for beef at Camp
Robinson, one and one-half mil~s oi~ly from Red Cloud, is eight cents
per pound:for fresh beef, net, on the block, and for beef-cattle per pound,
net, six cents.
That the Goven~ment is gettin~ its supply of beef for the Indians at a
rate much below that for the Artoy sufficiently appears, and yet, even
from the herds furnished at Red Cloud, some beef has been delivered
good enough for Army use.
Julius A. Green, the post-butcher at Camp Robinson, testifies that
the herds of cattle delivered at Red Cloud were mostly steers, but very.
few cows among them, and that take them all through they weigh
more than the cattle received at the post, and gives as the reason for
the fact that he killed a good many two-year old cows for the use of the
post.  He also says, speaking of the herds coming to the agency:
Last winter the cattle in this country, the Texas cattle, fell away a great deal.  Last
spring they got thin.  I only saw one herd here which was thin.  That was last spring.
The rest were all good.
Possibly the herd here referred to was the one seen by Major Stanton.
Mr. Green also says:
Q.You remember an occasion when eleven cattle were killed by the Cheyenne a
A.Yes, sir.
Q.In what herd were they killed ~
A.In the post-herd.  They were taken from the post-herd and dressed at the Cheyenne
camp.  Dr. Saville made them good afterward, and allowed me to select eleven fiom the
agency herd.  I selected eleven of the fattest, but not the largest, which netted 450 pounds
each without the shanks, tallow, kidney, or brisket, but with those they would no about
500.
As this testimony comes from a practical butcher, connected with
the Army, it is significant and of great weight.  The cattle delivered
in May last were, doubtless, smaller than those usually delivered, and 
XLV
considerably below the average. They were receipted for at 965 pounds
each.  These cattle were turiied in under the new contract made necessary by the short supply, and were wintered in the country of the
Platte; were purchased bY the contractor at a relatively high price,
many of them as high as $25 per head, and had, doubtless, suffered
from the rigors of the winter.
While Lieutenant Carpenter's statement is probably generally correct as to the condition of the cattle which he saw, we find iu it no cvideuce of fraud either upon the Indians or the Government.
During our investigation we were informed by a gentleman of high
character that Dr. Irwin, the agent of the Shoshone agency, informed
him in the fall of 1873 cattle were delivered to him by Mr. Bosler upon
the contract of G. M. Dodge, which came from the same herds as those
which were being delivered at Red Cloud and Whetstone, and that those
which he received weighed only 800 pouiids each, while those delivered
at Red Cloud and Whetstone were receipted for at an average of more
than 1,000 pounds. Oii returning to ~Vashington, the Auditor furnished
us with a copy of the voucher given for the cattle by Dr. Irwin, which
clearly shows that our informant misunderstood the Doctor, for instead
of 80() pounds, the voucher shows the weight to have been 489 pounds
net, or (J~5 pounds gross. Its effect seems to be to confirm the correctness of the weights certified to at Red Cloud rather than otherwise.
The facts that the cattle had been d~ven two hundred and fifty miles,
and were estimated and not weighed, will account for the slight difference assumed.
The ~?oucher given by Dr. Irwin is as follows:
Received of G. M. Dodge for the United States Government, at the Shoshone and Bannock Indian agency, Wyoming Territory, three hundred and forty-nine beef-cattle, averaging fbur hundred and eighty-nine (489) pounds net.  Total weight, one hundred and seventy-five thousand five hundred and fifty-one (175,551) pounds.
JAMES IRWIN,
United States Special Indian Agent.
SHoSHONE AND B~~~oc~ AGENCY,
Wyoming Territory, Sept. 30, 1873.
The Auditor also furnished us a copy of the account upon which Mr.
Dodge was paid for those cattle at gross weight, the total gross weight
being 351,102 pounds. Price, $3.90 per 100 pounds.  Total, $13,692.98.
Stampedes.
The subject of stampedes may be dismissed with a very brief notice.
Professor Marsh asserts that it is a "fruitful source of fraud,"and that
it "appears to have been practiced" at the Red Cloud agency as a " system," at least since the present agent took charge.  lle also declares
that "from such stampedes, and the fraudulent results fOll9wing~ both
the Indians and the Government have suffered great lo~~~~~~~
With these statements as our only guide, we were little prepared for
the discovery that only two stampedes had occurred since Saville took
charge, and that the total number of cattle lost in consequence was but
195; yet such is the fact, as shown by evidence which is not disputed.
On the 9th of October, 1873, in the midst of a storm, the cattle of
the agency herd were frightened by an Indian, as the herders stated,
and ~bout two hundred of them were stampeded and scattered over
the country. As the agent had not men enough to hold the remainder
of the herd, and at the same time recover the lost cattle, he turned over
about six hundred to the herd of the contractor, taking his receipt
therefor, and then sent his herders to hunt up the strays. In the course 
XLVI
of three weeks they recovered all but sixty-seven head.  The chief
herder was considered negligent in perforu~ing his duty, and was found
to have made several false statements about the matter of the loss. lle
was in consequence discharged by Dr. Saville.
If these cattle were stampede~l by the Indians, as was alleged, they
undoubtedly secured every head of them, without waiting for the formality of the agent's permission; and it is more than probable that they
did so, in any case, as they have an inviucible objection to seeing beefcat tie running at large about the coulttry.  Tiie facts were duly reported to the Indian Bureau by Dr. Saville, and we find no blame attributable to him in respect to ally part of the affair.
The second instance of a stampede occurred on the 7th of September,
1874, and the matter is fully detailed in the letters aiid affidavits on
page 443.  The uumber stampeded was 284 out of a herd of 834.  Most
of the cattle were fouiid to have returiied to the contractor's herd. The
chief herder, AleBratney, believed that all but thir~v-six had done so,
and Savilie wrote to the Indian Office, page 443, as follows: ~~N\Thile I
have not, and cannot get, the positive evidence tl~at the whole number
of cattle lost entered the contractor's herd, yet the circumstantial evidence leaves scarcely a doubt that they did so."
Mr. Bosler claimed that no trace could be found of the return of more
than 150, and that number was subsequeutly ret~irned to the agency
and deducted on the receipt given to the contractor by Saville.  The
course taken by Dr. Saville precludes the possibility of any collusion
with the contractor in this affair, and relieves him, in our opinion, from
every just suspicion of wrongtul act or purpose.  Of the remaining 134
head, 6 were recovered or accounted for, leaving a net loss of 128.  If
these 128 did uot return to the contractor's herd, the Indians doubtless
received the bei~efit of them; and if they did so returu and ~hall not
hereafter be accounted for in his settlement by the coi~tractor, then
they were a loss to the Indians as well as the Government.
The question has remained unsettled up to the present time; but in
view of tlie facts that all the trails led directly towards the contractor's
herd, whither the cattle would naturally have gone, that there was no
indication given by the Indiaus of their having picked up this considerable number-as, for example, by an increased sale of hides-and
the difficulty of supposing that Mr. Bosler's herders could have identified
each animal that had returned to the herd, we are led to the belief that
Dr. Saville's conclusion was correct.
It will be seen by Professor Marsh's testimony, pages 103 to 105, that
his statements were based on information only, and not on personal knowledga~  The information we find to have been incorrect.
The statement in Reshaw's certificate, page 16, that "these same
cattle were afterwards driven to the agency, and were receipted for the
second fime by the agent,~~ has not a shadow of foundation, except in
the fact already stated, that 150 were returned, but were iiot receipted
forasecond time. Before concluding upon this branch, we deem it our duty
to say that, while notwithstanding our carefi~l, and as we think thorough
and exhaustive, investigation, into the sul~ject of the supply of beef to
the Sioux Indians, we have found no sufficient evidence to justify us in
coming to the conclusion that fraud has been committed by the agent
or contractor during the period covered by our inquiry, yet that the
present system is one which we cannot approve.  It cannot be doubted
that under it it is possible for corrupt agents aiid contractors to combine
and to successfully defraud the Government and the Indians.
There is no proper check for the prevention of fraud, and, indeed, we 
XLVII
think the system invites it.  This is so apparent to every observer that
it may naturally give rise to aiid jnstify suspicions of fraud where no
fraud exists.
No India ii agent, however honest, should be exposed to the great
temptation laid opeii before liim; nor'should he be placed in a position
where, however he may resist temptation, and however honestly he
may scrve the interests both of the Government and of the Indians,
and act up to the highest standard of morality and honesty, he may
still be suspected, and run the Hsk of retiring from his position at last
with empty pockets and impaired reputation.
The case of Dr. Saville is in point.  The accusation has fallen upon
l~im, not because he has stolen, but because it was thought that he had
the opportunity to steal.  We think that, to protect the Governmeijt
against fraud, its servants and agents against temptation, and hoijest
inen called to the public service from unjust suspicion and accusation,
a change of system is demanded.
We would earnestly recommend that from the Army officers stationed
at the nearest military cam p-who are already under the pay of the
Government-who are generally men of education, integrity, aiid competent skill, with no arduous duties to perform in time of peace, an officer should be from time to time detailed at each agency, and under the
direction of the Commissary -General of tlie Army, to inspect and accept
or reject all beef ofibred by contractors and report his doings; that the
agent be allowed to receive none except on his certificate and that no
voucher be paid that does not bear the inspector's signature in its approval.  As seen H ty for his integrity, we h~ve the known high sense of
honor among military officers, and the court-martial for all delinquents.
The Jlorrow contract.
Professor Marsh presses upon our attention the subject of the Morrow contract, not referred to in his letter to the President, and the alleaed double payment for cattle delivered at the Crow Creek agency in
November, 1870, to the amount of $16,000. It should be said that the
fraud, if such it were, occurred before the present Commissioner of
Indian Affairs came into office.
It appears that in November, 1870, Morrow delivered to Agent French,
for that agency, about 400 head of cattle, for which French gave a receipt in the usual form, which was paid in the February following; that
tlie receipt was given by French with the expectation that it would be
~eld as a memorandum-he having received the cattle at the request
and for the convenience of the contractor-and with the intenti~n of
drawing from the herd afterwards cattle as he might need them for
issue, giving vouchers as he should take them; that in a few days
French was superseded by the present agent, Livingston, and that in
turning over to his successor he took no receipt for these cattle then on
the range with the agency herd; that Livingston afterwards took up
cattle from the herd as he needed them, giving Morrow vouchers for
them, upon which Morrow a second time was paid; that these cattle
stood charged to French, and in 1873, when the final settlement of his
accounts as an agent was reached, he found himself in default for the
amount of his voucher given to Morrow, with the balance really due
him from the Government locked up in the Treasury.  Morrow denied
that he ever received his pay twice, but claimed tl~at, owing to a personal difficulty between French and Livingston, Livingston refused to
receipt for the cattle, and that French left them in the agency herd; 
XLVIII
and that white men and Indians helped themselves to them, and that they
were thus lost to the Government.
There is evidence tending to show that in this claim Morrow was correct.  From the correspondenc~ found at the Det)artment of the Interior, it is certain that a large number of these cattle which were never
issued to them were suffered to be killed by the Indians and others.
Morrow claimed that every subsequent receipt, received after November, 1870, represented a separate actual delivery, and it appears that no
duplicate receipt, or receipt representing a similar number of cattle, was
ever given or paid.  It is very certain that French and Livingston, one
or both, neglected their duty, atid that from that neglect the difficulty
arose.
As soon as the matter came to the attention of the present Comm issioner of Indian Affairs he iiistituted a thorough investigation, and
caused a suit to be commenced against Morrow for the recovery of the
price of the cattle.  The case was not without embarrassment, for the
neglect of the agents was manifest, and Morrow claimed to be able to
show that he had only been once paid.
It was finally compromised, Morrow delivering at the Crow Creek
agency the same nuniber of pounds of beef-cattle as was represented by
the voucher of Noveiuber, 1870. There can be no doubt that the Coinmissioner of Indian Affairs has acted with judgment and discretion in
view of the condition of the parties, and the embarrassments of the case,
in the compromise which lie has effected, with the approval of the United
States district attorney for Nebraska and the Attorney-General of the
United States.
PORK.
Professor Marsh's statements (testimony, pp. 16, 17) respecting the
pork issued at the Red Cloud agency, November 15, 1875, were carefully
considered, and the principal facts, we believe, were fully ascertained.
These statements are, in substance:
1.That the issues were made in a careless and slovenly manner.
2.That some of the pork so issued ~ as unfit for food.
On the first point, which is of minor importance, except as it is alleged to furnish a characteristic illustration of the management of affairs
at the agency, it may be sufficient to place the conflicting testimony
side by side.  Professor Marsh says: "The method employed in distributing this article to the Indians was characteristic of the management of affairs at the agency. The barrels of pork were rolled out of
the warehouse by one of the employc's, the heads of the barrels knocked
in with an ax, and the contents turned upon the ground.  The pieces of
pork were then given to the Indians, who were waiting for it, without
being weighed, or any other measures being taken to insure a just distribution." To this statement Agent Saville enters an emphatic denial,
as follows, (testimony, p. 383:)
This is a fair sample of the willful misstatements throughout all these charges.  Professor
Marsh saw one barrel of pork rolled out to a band which was large enough to receive two
liundred pounds.  By their request the barrel was knocked open, and they distributed it
among themselves.  All the rest of the pork was issued iiiside the warehouse, through an
opening into another room, into which the Indians come to receive rations.  As Professor
Marsh had an opportunity of going into the warehouse and seeing the issue, I therefore char
acterize this statement, as far as it represents it as being the usual manner in which pork was
issued, as, to say the least, negligently incorrect.
Subsequently (testimony, p. 106) Professor Marsh reiterates the
statement that he saw "several barrels," instead of one, issued in the
manner he described; but was unable to say whether each of these barrels 
XLIX
was not issned to a particular band of Indians large eliough to be entitled
to that quantity, and then the heads knocked out to enable the in to divide
it among themselves.  It seems more than probable that this was the
case.  It should be remarked, also, that it is, in the present state of feelingand custom aniong the In~lians, impossible for the agent to distribute
artices of aiiy bulk to individuals. They insist on receiving in one issue
the articlesdesigiiedfor each band of f~in~ilies, and the distribution is then
carefully made in tlie presence of them all by some authorized or
selected member of the band.  The proceeding is a rude one, but substantial accuracy is insured by the watchful oversight of the persons
mest directly iijterested.
~Tith regard to the second statement, that sonie of the pork was unfit
for use, the testimony shows that the first 200 barrels receive~1 under the
Slavens contract were "mess" pork, in perfectly good condition; that
of the 600 barrels afterward furnished a very little (possibly half a dozen
barr~ls) had become spoiled in transit from loss of brine, while all the
rest were sweet and sound.  It consisted largely of the lean portions of
the animal, and was, therefore, on account of the habits an~l tastes of
the Indians, entirely unfit for their use.  All the evidence goes to show
that Professor ~~iarsh was mistaken in supposing the pork to be    ~~~~~,~~
or that any considerable portion of it was damaged.  i~Ir. Armor, of
Chicago, of whom it was purchased, states that it was new, and in perfectly good condition when shipped.  The statement quoted from Red
Cloud, that he believed some of the children bad died of eating the
pork, is too trivial fcr serious notice.  It is evidently one of those childish and irresponsible complaints which Indians in general (and that chief
in particular) are fond of making.  I~ is parallel with the coin plaint made
to us by one of the Indians, that the pork was spoiled by the "water in
the barrels," and with the statement of one of Spotted Tail's band, that
the hIll-sides were covered with the graves of their children who had
died from eating sugar.  They have little knowledge of the different
in odes of cooking pork, and, in general, nse the fat portions only.  In
thi~ in stance, accordiiigly, th~v cut oft' the fat and threw the rest away.
There was undoubtedly great waste of material, but any subsequent lack
of food on that account is attributable to the improvidence of the Indians
themselves, and not to the conduct of the agent, wlio appears to have
acted in the matter promptly and effectively.  As soon as his atteiition
was called to the waste that was going on be stopped issuing it, reported
to the Commissioner of Indian Aft-airs that the pork then beiiig delivered to the ageiicy was ei)tirely nufit for the use of the Jndians, and" was
all thrown away," and was lying "upon the ground about the agency.~~ lle
recommended that it all be" thrown upon the hands of the coiitractor~
and requested instructions from the Office.  After inquiry on the part of
tlie Com missioner, an arrangement was entered into with the contractor, as
will be presently pointed out, under which the remainder of the pork
was distributed to the Indians.
N\~hile, therefore, in regard to the principal charge, we find no evidence
that aiiy considerable amount of the pork referred to was otherwise than
sweet and wholesome, the proof is clear that it was of an inferior grade,
and we are fully convinced that it was furnished in pursuance of a deliberate and premeditated attempt to defraud both the Indians and the
~overnment.  The facts which lead to this conclusion are as follows:
Under date of May 28, 1874, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs adver.
tised for proposals to furnish 1,000 barrels of " mess" pork, (which is the
highest of the five grades recognized in western markets,) delivered at
41F 
L
Ofl~('~b('~.  Oti the 2d of July the i~ids were pllt ~[1, and, on beiiig opened,
were found to ralige froni $21 to $22.05.
The bid of Mr. J. N\T L. Slaveiis, of Kaiisas (Jity, Mo., being the
lowest, tlie contract was awarded to him; but, by an error on the part
of the clerk who filled it out, tile contract was made to call for "pork"
sim~~ly, and not for "mess pork." It appears, however, as stated by
Mr. Slavens, that between tite date of the bidditig, July 2, and the date
of his receiving the award of the contract, July 9, the price of pork had
advanced to such a figure that he could not. supply it without toss.  lle
says, (page 595:)
The price of pork had advanced in tito mean time, so that I could not possibly buy it at thc
price for which I offered to furnish it, although I had a margin at the date of the letting; and
I said to the Commissioner that I could not flirnish it at that price, and that I would not accept the award if I should he held to furnish it all immediately out of old pork; that if I was
only required to flirnish it from month to month, as the agency needed it, through the year,
then I could get even on the new crop of pork, which, as a rule, the United States over, is five
or six doll~trs lower per barrel than pork is before the new crop comes into the market.  He
said that would be all that would he required, to furnish it as fi~st as the agency needed it,
and with that understat~ding I accepted the award, and I delivered 200 barrels as soon as
they were called for.  The letting was in New York City, July2.  Bids were opened at noon
on a certain day.  I telegraphed to Holden & Co., of Chicago, and got the price of pork on
that day, and made a bid, reserving myself a margin, and tite next day, and the next, and
every day on until the award, I was wanting to know whetlier I should furnish it or not;
and there was no decision made in regard to who should have tite cotitract until in ~Vashington City some eight days afterward, I was notified that I could furnish the pork, and then
occurred this conversation with the Commissioner.
It will be noticed that Mr. Slavens, in his conversation with the Conimissioner, whatever he may have contemplated, made no allusion to any
proposed change in the grade of pork to be flirnished, but merely desired an understanding that it was to be delivered only as fast as it
might be needed.  Under the contract thus concluded, atid the arrangeineut thus made respecting the time of delivery, Mr. Slavens furitished
200 barrels of mess pork of tlte best quality.  lle did so because, as he
states, (p. 596,) this was what lie knew he had in his bid proposed to
furnish, and what he then supposed lie had coittracted to furnish; but
afterward he "Iiai)pened to see Mr. Threlkeld's copy of the coiitract, and
discovered that it did not call for it." Thereupon it occurred to Mr.
Slavens, according to his representation to this co tit mission, that lie
could substitute for "mess pork" any lower grade that could be made to
pass inspectioti.  " That," lie says, " was the test with me-inspection
in all contracts."  ~Vith this view he saw the inspector, Mr. Titrelkeld,
and proceeded to cotivittee him that there was re<'tlly no need of his being over-scrupulous about the grade of tlie pork, so long as it was sound
an~l sweet.  Mr. Threlkeld testifies, (p- 5S7,) " lIe said that parties who
had the contract at Om'~ha, a~id above here, "ere all furnishing that
class of pork, atid lie did not see why I should be so conscientious, and
reft~se to accept the sanie pork that they received; and I did not feel
that I wanted to be over-particular, and if they ~vere receiving that kind
of pork, of course I had no right to dispute what tie said about it."
Mr. Threlkeld also states in a letter to tlie Commissioner (p. 592)
that Slavens assured hi iii positively "that that was the grade contemplated by hiiu in his ~~~~~~ The inspector seems to have labored under
some embarrassment in choosing between his desire to serve Mr. Slavens
and a desire to serve the Goverunieiit if he conveniently could.  The
following extract from Mr. Threlkeld's testimony (p. 588) gives his version of the discussion, as it was drawn out in the examination, and, at
the same time, pre~ents his explanation of the course he pursued in
passing the pork: 
LI
Q.  Did ~Ir. Slavens claim that because the contract did riot hold him up to the terms of
the advertisement, therefore he was at liberty to put in a different grade?
A.  He contended that the contract was all I had to go by.
Q.  Then there was some discussion as to whether you should hold him to the terms of the
advertisemeiit or the terms of the contract?
A.  Yes, sir; lie said if the contract was not to be my guide, then I liad no guide  that
there would ii ave been no occasion for sending it to me.
Q.  Did you say to him that, inasmuch as he had made a proposM to fiji tlie contract
which tlie Government had advertised for in terms, he was bound to fttlfill it according to
tlie proposal and not according to the contract?
A.  No, sir.
~?- You did not claim that if he had made a proposal in answer to an advertisement
which calls for mess pork, and that proposal was accepted, that therefore he was bound to
furnish mess pork, no matter what the contract stated?
A.  I think I used that argument with him, but in reply he called my attention to the advertisenieiit inviting prnposals for flour, and also, in connection therewith, to the character
of flour the Government received, a saniple of which had been furnished to me by the Departtiient, and which, he reminded me, I knew was not XX flour; and of course I said 1
knew it.  Iii reply he said they had accepted a contract with him for a different grade of
flour hem what the Department called for, tlie sample of which I liad in my possession and
knew to be different; and I did not know but they might ii ave done the saute with him in
regard to pork.  I also call your attention in this connection to the following letter, dated
September 5, 1~74.  This letter does not refer to the advertisenient, but simply to the contract; arid taking all these things together I thought tbat he might be right about it.
DEPARTMLNT OF THE INTERiOR, OF~ic~ OF INDIAN AFFAIRs
!Fasbington, D. C., September 5, 1S74.
Sia:I have this day Iorwat.ded to your address a sample of the flour under which tlie
contract of this Office with J. W. L. Slavens was awarded, and have to call your attention
to instructions heretofore given you as to your duties n~garding the inspection of the same.
"Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
"H. R. CLUM,
"Acting Cornrntsstoner.
"L. i~. THRELKELD, Esq.,
"Thspector Indian Sapplies, Kensas City,`ilo."
Q.  In tlie case of flour you had a sample I
A.  Yes, sir.
Q In the case of pork you had no sample?
A.  No, sir; ~iuiply bad a contract by which they agreed to furnish so many barrels of
perk.     *        *        *         *        *
Q.  N\7hile you may excuse y~urse1f or be perfectly justified-and of course were justifiedin passing flour that was up to the sample furnished, how can you justify yourself in passing pork which was not of the best grade, when the description was simply pork?
A.  Because I did not presume it was my prerogative to dictate what kind of pork should
be accepted, provided it was sweet and sound.
Q.  How many kitids of pork are there recognized in the market?
A.  ~Vell, there are about five different grades: first, clear niess; second, mess; third,
prime mess; fourth, mess orditiary.  Then there is prime pork, that is still lower than mess
orditiary.
The portion of the testimony already quoted is perhaps sufficient to
sitow ~Ir. Threlkeld's part In this transaction; but in view of the fact
that lie had beeii appointed inspector for the express purpose of protecting the iuterests of the Government, it may be well to permit him to
show by his OWll admissions that he acted with a full knowledge of the
ft~cts in tiie c~'~S~, and that he was not nllconscions of a desire to help
Slavens out of a losing bargain.  ~Ve quote from page 588:
Q.  Did you see the advertisement before you inspected tho six hundred barrels of prime
mess-pork?
A.  I think I did, sir.
Q.  Now, having the advertisement before you which called for mess-pork, and the contract which was silent upon the subject of tlie quality, liow did you construe the contract as
giving you authority to receive an inferior quality of pork?
A.  I did not consider the quality inferior.  The grade was different.
Q.  I nieaii, did your own knowledge that he could not furnish that pork at A2l a barrel
control your judgment of the matter? 
LII
A.Well, I presume, sir, in connection with the information I received, that they were
not required to furnish mess-pork from the other localities; that had something to do with it.
Q.Will you say, at the time you inspected the six hundred barre~s, you had no knowledge of the terms of the advertisement, as well as the terms of the contract?       -,
A.No, sir, I cannot say that; I have already said differently.  I think I had knowledge
of the advertisement, and also of the contracL
Q.And you did know, did you not, that there was a difference in the terms of the two
instruments?
A.Yes. sir.
Again, page 587:
Q.Can you tell, while the contract was silent as to whether it should be mess or prime,
why you should not insist upon the best when you were acting for the Government?
A.I did; I insisted upon the best.  ~Ir. Slavens called my attention to the fact that it
was.
Q.Can you tell why the Government should not demand first quality, if the contract is
silent on the subject, as well as Slav ens should insist upon the second or third quality?
A.I have no reason.
Q.If the contract is silent on the subject, why should not the Government have the
benefit of it as well as Mr. Slavens in determining the quality of the pork by the inspection?
A.Well, that is a question I am not able to answer.  I suppose if I were buyiiig of you
or Mr. Slavens, or any other person, a certain amount of any given article, I should certainly
have the grade specified in the contract, the particular kind.
Q.You were acting not for Mr. Slavens, but for the Government?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.And you began by inspecting mess pork?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.At his request you passed as sound pork a quantity below that grade because it was
pork?
A.Yes, sir; I had not noticed the terms of the contract at the time I inspected the first.
I supposed, of course, it required mess-pork, and wheti he presented me mess-pork, if I
found it merchantable, I passed it.
Q.You did not communicate with the Department before accepting the 600 barrels?
A.No, sir; but I did so immediately afterward.
In his letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs of Jan~ary 11, 1875,
~Ir. Slavens states (p. 595) that he "otily learned from the Government
inspector after this [flrstj delivery was ii~a~le that the contract (lid not
require mess-pork,~ and this seems to imply that the suggestion originated with th~t official.  Whether that is tite case does itot ciear]y appear, aiid it is of little itnportaiice iii view of the fact that whichever of
them first made the suggestioti, he seems to have had 110 serious difficulty in bringing the other to act upoti it.
~Iessrs. Slavens and Threlkeld having 1)0W arrived at a satisfactory
nnderstandi~ig with each other, nothing i'emained bnt to send the lower
grade of pork to tlie agency, where they seem to have entertained no
doubt that it would be accepted without questioti on the certificate of
the iiispector.  But before leaving this branch of the subject, there is
another poitit that demands atteiition, sit) cc it reveals a clear case of
fraudulent misrepresetitation by AIr. Sl;tvens to the Cominissiotier of
Indian Affairs aitd to this cominissiot), att~1 convicts AIr. Threlkeld of
ignorance or dishonesty iii tile iitspectioit witich he actually made after
having consented to pass the lower grade of pork.
By reference to tlie testiniony of t)oth these men, wltich has been already quoted, it will be seeti that tliQV ntiiforinly speak of the six hundred barrels of pork as" prime mess."  On being questioned particularly
on this point, Air. Threlkeld makes tlie following statement, (p. 589:)
Q.Are the grades marked on all the pork?
A.They are usually marked by the packer.
Q.Do you recollect what this pork was marked?
A.It was marked just what it was-prime mess. 
LIII
Q.It was not marked prime?
A.No, sir; I think it was marked prime mess-pork.
Q.Do you recollect si~fflcieutly well to say ~
A.No, I could not. say positively, hut that is my recollection.
Q.~Vhat would be the difference in tite value of those different kinds; what would prime
be ~vorth?
A.From tlie highest to the lowest, probably a difference of $10 a barrel.  The difference
between the first three is not so very nuch
Q.\Vliat w~~uld constitute prime pork?
A.Pork undersize, I suppse, and probably lean and almost all shoulder.
(? Do you remember whether you i)assed any of that grade called prime?
A.I don't thitik I did.
Q.~Vliy would iiot that answer the advertisement just as well as the pume mess, if it was
sweet aiid sound pork?
A.It would, sir.
Q.Are you willing to say you did not pass the lowest grade of pork on that contract?
In A. No, sir; Iod~~$\~'tt gha~idI{ it ~p~aS~~th~ lowest grade of ~or0$~~b~t I think I would he justified
~1r. Sl~vens (p. 59(") is eqi'ally certain, or perhaps we should sny UncCrtiifl, that it ~vas all "prin)e u)ess.~
Q.There is a low grade called prime pork, made up of thin and small pork?
A.Yes, sir; aud prime mess is made up of lighter pork, cut from lighter bogs, than mess
pork.
Q.Do you know whether any portion of this pork which was purchased by you to make
up the six hundred barrels was of the qi~ality known as plime ~
A.No, sir; I think it was all prime mess.
Q.Can you tell now whether you did ship any prime?
A.I am pretty certain that it was all prime mess.
~1r. Slavens's men~ory proved to be def~ctive also in respect to the
price lie had paid for this pork, and the parties from whom he had purchased it, thonglt this was his only contract for pork that year, (pp.
59L))~ 594:)
Q.And from whom did you buy it in Chicago?
A.I am not certaiii what firm we bought it through.  It was either through Holden & Co.,
or Gilbert, Prior & Co.; we had business with both of them.  ~Ve may have bought a portion of these six hundred barrels here from Plankinton & Armor.
Q.I ui~derstand that you did not deliver any more until you began packing pork here
yourselves?
A.Ttie last two hundred barrels were of the pork we packed ourselves.
Q The pork that you bought in Chicago, was that delivered heie?
A.Yes, sir; all delivered here.
*                *        *       *        *
Q.Can you tell now what you paid for any portion of those 600 barrels?
A.No, sir; I do not reniember. I think about $19 a barrel.
Q.Do you think you paid for all of it tlie same price?
A.~~ery likely not; the niarket is changing.
Q.II ave you in your po~session hooks, or means of telling what you paid for all tlio pork?
A.Yes, sir; but not with me. I have it in tlie office.
Q.Could you, without any great inconvenience, write a note to the c1iairman of the
committee in Saint Louis, within a few             an answer to the
A. Yes, sir.                 days, dii~ give           question
Q.I suppose, in truth, you put in under that contract any pork that would pass inspection?
A.Yes, sir; that was the test with me-inspection~in all contracts.
Q.Can you state what persons you bought pork of?
A.1 have given you the names of the brokers through whom I got all the pork~I did not
pack nyseif; it was bought through brokers.
Tile promise here given, to forward to the chairinan a statement of the
prices paid has not been kept, bnt by subsequent inquiry the coininis.~ioli not only obtained tile desired information on that point, but
learned such additional facts as leave no room for any other coiiclnsion
than that the statements just quoted respecting the grade of pork purchased and inspected are a tissue of falsehood.  The good barrels of
pork were all purchased of Armor & Co., Chicago, whose name Slavens 
LIV
did not remember to give.  A transcript from their books, which was
furnished us by that firm, shows the purchase by Slavens, September
17, 1874, of 200 barrels, at $17 per barrel; October 24, 1874, 200 barrels,
at $15 per bairel, and October 31, 1874, 2()0 l~arrels, at $15 per barrel.
Not a barrel of this pork was "l)I~1i)e i~iess," l~ut it ~`~S~ as stated by
~Ir. P. D. Armor, of the brand kiiowi~ ns "extra pri'ne,~~ which is the
lowest grade recognized in the (~~hicago Inirket. This is tlie pork, as there
seems no reason to doubt, that was certified by Threlkeld to be "prime
mess," and as such delivered by Slaveiis to tlie Government.  It has
already been sta~edtliat this article proveti unfitfortlie use of the Indians,
and that Agent Saville promptly reported the fact to tiie Commissioner
at Washingtoii. The Commissioner at oiiee addressed a coii~i)laint to
Slavens, whose reply is printed on page 594; a telegram to Tlirelkeld,
directing him to accept iiothing of lower grade tli;in "mess;" a letter to
the same, calling for particulars relative to tlie l)ork aireatly iiispected
and shipped, and a letter to Saville directiiig lii in to "iiisI)ect each barrel
when opened, and appraise loss in value," aiid thereafter to "transport
none but`mess' from Cheyenne."
After receiving the explanations of Tlirelkeld (1). 592) aiid of Slavens,
as already referred to, and a statement of Ageiit S~~ville, that if the rest
of the contract were filled with fat pork or bacon, "the prime pork on
hand" could be used, he referred the m'~fter to tlie Secretary of the Interior for instructions.  The Secretary authorized tlie Coinniissiouer to
accept Slavens's general proposition and make tlie most advaiitageons
settlement he could. The settlement as finally effected required Slavens
to furnish " one hundred barrels of iness-i)ork, to be prompfly delivered
at Red Cloud Indian agency, Dakota Territory, free of cost to tlie United
States Government." The cost of the pork thus required of Slavens was
$2,100, and Agent Saville was directed to receil)t for it as being a satisfaction of the "difference in value betweeii six hundred barrels messp~rk advertised and bid for, and the same quantity prime mess delivered by contractor." Slavens's propositioli was accepted by letter, dated
April 15, 1875.  On the 12th of August, ii early four mouths later, Saville
notified the Indian Office that the pork liad iiot yet been received; but
later, August 30, Slavens reportetl that lie bad shii)ped an equivalent
amount of bacon.  Even after this settlemeiit of the matter had been
agreed upon, however, it is evident that Slavens iiieant to make tlie least
restitution that he could induce the Coiuiiiissioiier to accei)t. In the letter
before referred to, (p. 595,) after expressing liis williiigiiess to make; good
the difterence in ~ alue between the pork called for and tlie pork fiiriiished,
he states this difference as ranging "from  one to two ~lollars~" The
Commissioner, accepting his statement that lie liad fnriiislied " prime
mess," required him to settle on the basis of $3.50 i~er barrel as difference in value, instead of tlie $1.50 which Slaveiis had proI)osed.
The fLet is, that on tlie day when lie purcliasetl "extra prime " in
Chicago for $17 per barrel, the price of " niess" iii the same iiiarket was
a difference of $~-~~i, and on tiie two days wlieii he made purchases at $15, the price of "iiiess" was $19.37A aiid $19.50 respectively,
a differ9nce of $4.3;~~~ and $4.5{). It appears, therefore, that if we take
$~ f)er barrel as a fair average difference of value betweeii tlie two grades
of pork, the Governmeiit ought to receive at leas{ $900 in ore iii value
than has yet been retniidetl. ~~ liile the Coinm~ssioiier's rigor aiid
promptness iii dealing wit ii this mitter as soon as liis attention was
called to it leave nothing to be desired, we cannot acquit him  of icsponsibility for the error of a clerl~, by which tlie fraud of Slavens was
rendered possible. Amid tlie almost nuniberless details of business con 
LV
neeted with so i~npor~ant a Bureau, there must be many which cai~i~ot
come under the immediate scrutiny of the chief officer; but it would be
ijiadmissible to regard the pret~aration of contracts which involve the
exl)en(iitnre of public funds as one of them.
~~ith regard to ~Ir. Threikeld, we resi)ectfully recommend that bis
services as inspector be hereafter dispensed with, aiid we also recommend
that ~tr. Slavens be exciude~l from all participation in future contracts
with (`i~1~ (lei)artmeiit of tIi~ ~overnment.
FLOUR IS5ITFD AT THE AGENcY.
Profes~or ThIlrsh ch~rges that flour which he saw at tlie l~ed Cloud
agency wis d~'rk iii color, adhesive to the touch, although it bad not
beeii wet an~1 inferior in qunlity.  That he should have met with aii article of this discre~litable quality at tlie time lie was there is not a matter
of surpri~e fi~in tlie evidetice; for it a;~pears that there were 27 sacks of
flour which lia~ been condemned both by ~Ir. French and i~Iajor Long,
which, iievertheless, found their way to that agency for distribution by
some mistake, as is alleged; and ]\Iajor Long, an Army officer, who was
deputed as an insl)ector of flour at Cheyenne in September, 1874, states
that a portioii of the flour which lie was ordered to inspect slipped
through without inspection, iii a manner that he could neither explain
nor account for.
The sample of this article which Red Cloud placed in the hands of
Profrssor ~Iarsli seems to have been something below tlie quality of
the vilest flour that reached that agelicy, surreptitiously or otherwise.
That wily chief is as distinguished for low artifice as he is for brute
courage, and the opportunity which the Professor had for learning his
true character should have made him cautious in acceptiiig too implicitly his stateiuen~ 5, especially as he availed himself of no opportunity
wheii lie was at the agency to compare that saini)le with even the worst
sl)eciniens of the flour he saw there.  The fact that Red Cloud had
made up his sample of another article, hereafter to be noticed, in a way
to make it serve liis own purpose, iiaturally suggests the susl)icion that
lie iiiay have pre~~ared a sample of flour by a Simil'tr exercise of liis culliiiiig.  This susI)icion was strengthened by the appearance of the saml~le rec&ived by Professor i~Iarsh, a portion of which, at their request, he
was kind eiiongh to furiiish to the commission.  It was of a peculiar
clay-white color, and so l)erceptibly gritty to the touch as to give us at
oiice tlie iml)ression that it i)robably had been adulterated by Red Cloud
wit Ii tlie fine white sandy clay which largely composes the soil around
tlie i~~flcy.  This impression is coiifirn~ed by a chemical aiialysis, which
we l)rocnred, and which revealed, besides the usual ingredients of wheatflour, 5'~nd, iron as oxide and sulphuric acid, tlie sand amouliting to 8
l)er ceiit. of the whole sami)le.  The preseiice of so large a percentage
of foreigii substaiices seems conclusively to prove adulteratioii, and, ill
tlie at)seiice of (`ill evidence of aiiy other flour at the ageilcy coiitaiiiing
such snbstance~, we are forced to the conclusion that Red Cloud is respoii Si t~le for th is i ni Ilosture pra(ti()ed upon tlie learned I~rofessor.
it ~~p1aj}{ fiom speci!neiis of flour of tlie character first abo~'e referred to,
i~    to be doubted that tlie entire sup~~lie~ of that article furiiislied
tlie Iiidian a~eiicies are of a quality that inay be called itiferior.  The
coiitracts lbr supplies are given to tlie lowest bidder, and the prices at
which these contracts are awarded show that the Governmeiit expects
that an article of inferior qualit~, but at tlie ~ame time souri~l, wholesome, and iiutritious, shall be delivered.  There is iio treaty obligation 
LVI
resting upon this Government to snpply tlie Sioux Indians with flour or
any other kiud of foo(l.  Considerations of llumani~y and of~~~olicy alone
dictate appropriations for that purpose.  The Indians are incapable of
discriminating, either from their taste or style of cooking, betweeii the
different grades of flour.  All that they can reasoiiably ext)ect is to be
fi~rnished with a sound, wholesou~e, and nutritious article, and if it possesses these qualities they should be satisfied.  ~Ve have, therefore, no
fault to flud with the Indian Ofi~ce that it seeks, by its system of proposals, to get an article of iiiferior manufacture, provided it is sweet,
free from all adulteratioii, and tiie contractor is required to fi~riiish the
I)recise article which he has stipulated to deliver, and for which he expects payment from the Goveriiinent.
In revieving the testimony on this point, we have no hesitation in
sayiiig that the Indian l~3~ure~iu, in advertisiiig for XX flour  lias
selected a grade proper for Indiaji supplies.  It is a grade of wdl-ascertaiiied manufacture, recognized by all dealers and coiisun~ers of flour.
In case of good, sound wheat, it is made by regrinding with the wheat
the middlii~gs that come therefrom.  It thus iiicreases the quantity of
flonr oiie-eighth or one-ninth.  ~Ve believe that all the supplies of flour
furnished to the Indians duriiig that year, with the exception of the
twenty-seven sacks above referred to, aiid that which surreptitiously
escaped inspection, were fair and souii~l articles of this low and inferior
grade of flour.
~~e thiiik the Bureau erred in awarding the contract of flour to J. II.
~Iartin.  Ile was a mere speculative bidder, not the owner of a mill, and
not l~imself having the means of fllling liis contract.  lle liad been the
year before the lowest bi~ider for flour, and had failed to comply with
his contract.  He complied but partially with it in the year 1574, and
the award of tile contract to liim aiid his subsequent failure to meet his
engagements under it have led to several irregularities disclosed by the
evidence, and which we feel coiistraiiied to iiotice.
First. It was irregular and unbusiness-like for tlie Commissioner of
Indian Affairs to iiistruct the superiiitendeiit, Barclay ~Vhite, to accept
from 0. P. Hurford 2,500 sacks of flour upon a sample to be furnished
to-the said supetintendeiit by tlie veiidor himself.
Secondly. It was improper in that superintendent subsequently to
permit ~Ir. Ilurford to substitute a lower sample, aiid to accept flour
npon that substituted sample.
Thirdly. It was improper in the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to
sanction the act of D. J. ~IcCann, by which lie ordered of 0. P. Ilurford
2O2,0~)O pounds of flour, in sacks weighiiig 58 pounds to tiie sack, as the
contract expressly provided that it should be delivered in 100-pound
~acks, aiid this departure from tlie contract niight have led to fraudulent results if they had not beeii frustrated as hereinafter mentioned.
Fourthly. It exhibited a want of due diligence upoti tlte part of the
Commissioner of Indian Affairs to allow ten car-loads of flour to arrive
at Cheyenne without makiiig provision in advance to have a proper inspector there to test its quality before it was sent to tlie l~ed Cloud
agency.
Fifthly. In seeking by private contract to repair the omission of
Martin to sup~~ly the necessary flour for tlte I~ed Cloud ageiicy, I)avid
J. McCann addressed the following letter to 0. P. Hurford, of Omaha:
(J!IEYENNE, N\' T., Ae~nst 22, 1~74.
DEAR SIR:Since writing you I have been authorized to purchase 202,000 pounds of
flour for the Indian service, in double sacks, weighing d~ pounds to the sack, including 
LVII
sacks, or, say, 2,~96 sacks of SS pounds eaJ~.  If you see your ~vayclear to furnish it at the
price, ($2 per 100 pounds,) shippin~ two to three cars per week, after next week, please sign
and return the inclosed memorandum.  Koenig desires tlie order, but, iu view of onr corresI)ondence, you are entitled to the efusal.
Yours, truly,
D. J. McCANN.
0. P. liuaroa~, Esq., Oinalie.
Tiie fact that tlie pr~ctice bus unifori~ly and uiiiversally prevailed
()f l~'lviflg flour deliveied iit IO()-pouud &~aCk5, the flour netting 98
I)oi1n(~s, precisely huif a barrel, aiid the sack 2 pouiids, and that it was
so prescriI~ed by the contract., caused tlie coiniuissioii to itiquire with
solije I)articularity ~~liat was the exi)lanatiou of tlie very siiignlar or~ler
licre givell that this flour should be I)ut in 8S-j~ound sacks.  ~fr. ~IcC~iiii ~~s summoned before this coiiiniission for examiuatioii at Cheycii ite.  His testimony will be seen on pige 538.  His explanation was iiot
satisfactory.  He denied haviiig ~1irectcd Hurford to 1}ut the flour in 88i)ouiid sacks; deii ied that it was done at liis partie~~iar request, aiid
barely coiteeded that he thought he liad tuade th~ request, and thought
tite request was made after being iiiforuied that these were tlie otily
sacks oil ii and.;\`Ir. Hurfoi~d deiiies that he had any 88-pouiid sacks
oil haiid, but says he had sacks for one hundred pounds; that he was
con0l)elled to send to St. Louis for those 88~pound sacks, and they were
silil)ped to hita only after the date of ThIr. Mc(~~anii's letter.  lie further
states that when he saw McCann subsequetitly to the receipt of iliS
letter, he "asked him about the, 88-pound sacks; why it was to be put
tip iu that way; that it was unusual atid might lead to trouble.'~   ThicCan ii's reply was: "1'or the convenience of issue together with other
rations."  ~Vhen we refer to the testimony of Major Long, and learn
irom lii'n that his first instructions were simply to test the quality of
the flour, and )iot to`weigh it, and that after so tesfing its quality, he
should deliver the flour over to the (;overuineiit, possibly an adequate
explanation may be found for this uiiprece~lented order.  The following
extract from the testimoiiy of Dr. Saville, the agent, may, perhaps,
throw further light upon this subject, (pp. 424, 425:)
Q. Had you any idea that flour was coming in short weight, designed to pass for full
weight?
A. Yes, sir I a~certained tbat flour was cooling to the agelicy in short weight.  I know
no reason for it.
Q. Did that first happen, as far as you know, under the Martin contract?
A. Yes, sir.
~t- Did you ever know of any flour coming in short weight to the agency except that of
tlie Mirtin contract?
A. No, sir; I thinit not.
Q. JIas ever any flotir of short weight been received at your agency a,id counted Cs onehundred-pound sacks?
A. No, sir; I think not.
Q. ~Vlio first made known to you, or where did you first get tlie information, that flour
was coming under he Martin contract in eighty-eight-pound sacks?
A. Mr. Palmer, the store-keeper here at Cheyenne, first called my attention to the flict.  I
don't know whether he first detected it by weighing it or not.
Q. Then, so far Cs you know, was not that flour designed to pass for 100-pound sacks?
A. Yes, sir; so far as I know.
Q. Did the contractor or any of the employc's give you to understand that lie was shipping
flour of short weights?
A. No, sir.
Q. ~Vhen you first learned of this short weight, what did you do?
A. I gave orders to the store-keeper to receive no flour in less than one-hundred-pound
sacks without orders from the Commissioner of Indian Aflairs to do so, and directed the
store-keeper to communicate to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, which lie did, and the
Conimissioner wrote him a letter, which stated that it made no difference, provided the
weight of the flour was certified to by the inspector.
Q. Was that at the tinie that Mr. Long was first appointed ilispector`?
A Yes, sir; Ma~or Long was the inspector then. 
LVIII
Upon receiving this information, Comn~issioner Smith ordered M~\jor
Long to weigh the flour as well as inspect it.  If this was a ddiberate
scheme to defraud the Government and the Indians, it was frustrated
by the vigilance of the store~keeper, Palmer; aii~l so it may be here said
notwith~tandin~
that,              the failure of ~Iarfiu to fill iiis coiitract, and the
fact that the Goveruziient was compelled to repair his failure by pnvate
purchases, the Governti~ent lost nothing by tl~e operatio~.
The practice l~as prevailed of lettiiig contra~'ts for the sup~~ly of flour
to the Indians at the city of Xe~v York.  This luay at one tinie have
beeii expedieiit; but we do iiot tliiiik it is so iiow.  Its necessary effect is
to foster the business of tioc prof.cssiori~il or si)e(~ulatin~ coiitractor.
Large and extensive mills no~v everywhere ai~ouiid iii the ~~alley of the
~\fississippi, aiod flour of every qoiality is abuiidaiitly n~aiiufactured there.
If these contracts were let at sonic suital~le point in tlie ~~~est, the
onanufacturers of flour in that section would doubtless become bi~lders,
~iid an active competition would be created nIl)ong them, aiid flour
could be obtained of a better quality aiid at cheaper rates thaii it is
no~v furnished by the iui~idle-men aiid speculatiii g contractor.
~Vithont unnecessarily lengthening the discnssion of this particular
branch of our inquiries, the facts ~inbrace~l iii the extended evidence
bearing upon the subject, and herewith presented, satisfy our minds that
all tlie flour delivered was of a low and inferior quality, but by no means
niofit for food, aiid that there was 100 fraud succssfully perpetrated upon
the Government in the filliiig of the coiitraet.  N\~itliout pronouncing
conclusively upon the inteiitioii of Martiii or i~IcCann, tlie evidence is
sufficient in connection with tlie actioii of tlie latter in tlie matter of
transportation to justify the Indian Bureau aii~1 Board of Indian Commissioners iu refi~sing to coiifide to ~Ir. McCauii tioe peiforniance of
another contract, aiid ~Iartin should bug igo have beeii excluded as a
bidder.  There was certaiiily enough, also, to justify Commissioner
Smith's suspicioii of Traud, as expressed to Iiidiaii Conimissioner
koberts and cO1ntuIinic~ited by hiiii to Sul)eniitendeiit ~Vhite, in his
letter of November 4, 1874; aiid that there was no fraud successfully
perpetrated is due to tlie vigil a i?ce of others, and iii ilowise to the
effl~iene~ of Supeiiiitendeiit ~V lute.  Tlie eiiibarrassii~ents which the
Commissioner niet in this traiisaetiou might have been guarded against
to a great extent if he liad tal~en the l)recalitioii to ~~roctire tl~e detail
of an Army officer to act as iiispector of fl~~ur at Cheyeniie in due time,
and in aiitieil)atioi) of the delivery of tlie flour which lie knew was eontracted toi on tlie 11th of Jul~.  Ilis proIni)t atid energetic actioii,
however, in repairing his previous errors aii~l omissions, wheii a~vakened
to tlie conduct of these parties, evinced all lioiiest purI)ose to protect
tlie iiiterests of the Goverioniciot.
SUGAr, COFFFE, AND TonA(Jco.
The same iemail is to be made of tlie quality of tlie sugar, coflee,
and tobacco that were turnislied to tlie 1~~ed Cloud a~encN last ~ ear as
of the flour.  These articles ~vere all of low gra)e, aii(t were designedly
puichased as su~h, but ~~e ha~ e tound ilo e~ ideiice tendiog to show
that they cost the Governuicoit more than tlie fair market l)rice, or that
the full ainonoit purchased did iiot reach tlie agencies.
Tlie tobacco was of three brands.  All were of dark color- but
otherwise two of them  were i~ir articles of "ilavy plug," composed
mostly of leaf.  Tlie tliir~l bian~l was a miserable coinl)oniid of bits
and cuttiiigs, glued t ogetlier with licorice or soiiie oilier viscid sub 
LIX
stance, pressed into the form of plugs, and overlaid with, at most, two or
three thicknesses of leaf.  The sample given to Professor Marsh by Red
Cloud was of this kind, except that the outer coating of leaf appears to
fiave been removed.  A lighter ai~d better brand than any of these is
being furriisbed tlie present year; but as the Indians use it principally for
smoking, it is probable that still more care in the selection might wisely
be exercised.
The coffee was a low grade of Rio, but certainly good enough for the
use it was intended for, aiid far better than the bi~rnt aiid ground mix
ture calle~l c~~ffee that thousaiids of families in tlie United States are
glad to be able to procure.  The sample exhibited to us by Professor
~1arsl~ coi~sisted of a few black or otherwise imperfect grains, such as,
with the necessary paitis, could be picked out from a small quantity of
any coit~iuon grade of coffee.  Professor ~Iarsh unfortunately did not
guiard hi~nself against imposture on this point, by comparing what Red
(DIoi~d gave ljiiii with that on hand at the agency and being issued at
the time of his visit.  Titat Re~l Cloud picked it out, grain by grain, to
serve ltis own purpose, the testimony leaves no room to doubt.  lle was
himself extremely vague and noi~co'nmittal when questioned as to the
time, place, an~l inanuer of obtaining the sample, and it was only after
repeated and varied inquiry that we succeeded in eliciting from him
even so much as appears oil tlie record, (pp. 305-7.)  But tlie testimony
of Mr. Yates, the store-keeper, and Mr. Pallardy, his derk, one of the
most intelligei~t and competent interpreters we found at the agency, establislies tbe facts b~vond a doubt. ~fr. Yates says, (p. 331:)
Q. Did you ever hear Red Cloud or Red Dog talk about the sample of coffee they gave
Professor ~lansb ~
A. I heard Red Dog tell Pallardy that they picked the coffee of which they gave a sample
to Professor Marsh out of quite a ~u~ntity, and tl~ey picked tl~e worst graitis they could find.
They picked, as he said, all the blick grains.
Q. ~~ben was this?
A. I think abo'it a month ago. I do not recolle~t positively.
Q. Since Professor Marsh's statement has become known?
A. Yes, sir.  The occasion of it was I was reading the papers, and Red Dog was in my
store. I turned round and a~ked Pallardy to ask hii~ if lie gave thcse samples; and, if so,
why lie did it: and lie told Pallardy that he picked them out of the blad~ grains of coffee and
gave them to Professor ~1arski out of quite a q'iantity.
Mr. Pallardy confirms this statement, as follows, (pp. 3~6-7:)
Q. ~~hut did he say about that sample of coffee?
A. lie said ti~at he atid Red Cloud bad tied those samples up and given them to Professor
~Iarsli  they called hini the man that picked hones.
Q. Did he say where they got the samples?
A. They were talking about that one day, and I inquired how they got all this coffee.
lie said they picked the bad grains out of the coffee iii the warehouse. I asked how they
got all this bad coffee, and they said they picked it out.
Q. liad lie heard of Pnifessor ~Iarsh's charges about fliose things?
A. Yes, ir  I thiiik lie had.  it was the very day of the coiivensation between us and
~~ed Dog that turned on this su~ect.  He said they picked out all tlie bad grains of coffee.
SUFFERIN~ AMONG TIlE INDIANS.
Doubtless iiidividual instances of suffering among the Indians may
have occurred, but their known improvidence will sufficietitly account for
any such ii~stai~ce, in tlie absence of evideijee of otl~er causes.  The testimony of;\Iaj. T. II. Staiiton sLows that during the ]ast winter, which
~vas nitusually severe, and, as he says,  the severest wijiter ever ki~own
by the residunts of this country," there was destitution atid sufibring
among Indiatis encamped near Bordeaux Creek, some distance from the
Spotted Tail age licy, and ttiat for a perioti they were reduced to the
~ecessity of eatiiig their poIlics. 
LX
~Ve think, however, the facts that they were far froiu the agency, and
tbat there was a short supply of provisions, owing to the im~~ossibility
of transportation, are sufficient to exoiierate the Government from blame
or responsibility.  Certainly evi~ience that these sufferiii~s were the
direct result of fraud in aiiy form is eatirely wan ti rig.  In the fall of 1874
they often sold their flour for prices raiiging from fifty cents to one
dollar per sack of oiie hundred pouiids, to squaw-men who bought on
speculation, or to the persons passing through tlie reservation.  They
butcher beeves as they have been in the habit of killiiig buffalo, leaving
on the carcass considerable of such portions of tlie animal as are useful
for food. Their opposition to receiviilg beef from the block, when properly butebered, is so emphatic that a change of system would be attended
N\-ith very stont resistance on their part.  By the change they would lose
the hides of the cattle, which they sell to tlie tra~ler for three dollars
each, and by which tlie (4overiinieiit loses about $50,000 per annurn at
these two ageiicies-Red Cloud and Spotted Tail.
The law forbidding purchases for the Indians until tlie al)prol)riations
are made, and the delay in the passage of the al)propriafion bills so ruetimes tn the very close of the long session of Congress, render it impracticable to a~vertise for proposIls and let coiitracts aiid secure deliveries in seas~n to get the supplies transported to tlie t~ei Cloud and
Spotted Tail agencies before the winter sets iii.  NYhen the storms of
winter come on in that country the cold is so severe, arid the snow so
blows iii drifts as to make it iml)ossible to transport goods or supplies
by wagons either from the Missouri River or from the Union Pacific
Railroad.  N\7hile this is found a reason for the occasional scarcity of
supplies, it is also another reason for the removal of these two agencies
to the Missouri River, in addition to those suggested in another subdivision of this report.  Two wagon-trains with supplies for Red Cloud
agency were caught in a storm last winter, and the cattle were lost and
the men had their limbs frozen.  A wagon-train sent from Spotted Tail
agency to the Missouri for supplies in Deceiiiber, 1874, was delayed on
its return by snows and the severity of the weather until April, 1875.
Meanwhilg there was a want of some articles of snp~}lies at that agency.
~Ve have not onl~ been unable to ascertain from the white inen who
gave their evidei~ce in that country that there was any general suffering
at Red Cloud, but the Indians themselves, very many of whom we cxa'nined on the subject, fail to coiiflrru the statement.  Ari Indian's evidence on this subject, taken with a knowledge of liis universal predis.
position to grumble a~d complain, is very reliable testimony.  That
there may have been suffenug amoiig tlie Indiaiis for want of food is
highly I)robable, but that it was due to their improvidence or the unprecedented se~erity of the wiiiter, and the conseq~ieiit in~possibility of keepiiig up supplies at the agency, is the only conclusion we are warranted
iii drawiiig from the evidence now before us.
TRAN~P OR TATION.
It is alleged by Professor Thlarsh that the Coininissioiier of Indian Affairs
lias allowed and paid to D. J. ~IcCann fi~r traiisporting goods and supplies from Cheyenne to I?ed Cloud ageiicy, estiniating the distance at
212 miles, wheii the true ~iistance is oiily 145 riiiles, at a rate established
by ~ontract per 100 pounds per 100 miles, and that the Indian Bureau
has not made aiiy effort to ascertain the true distance.
~~e find tlie facts to be that for the years 1871 and 1872, the Indian
goods and supplies for tlie Red Cloud agency were transported by McCann 
LXI
from Cheyenne to the old Red Cloud agency 011 the Platte, at the rate
of $1.75 per 100 pounds per 100 mile~ the distance being then stated at
132 miles from Cheyenne to the old aAency, on the Platte.  On the 28th
day of May, 1873, ~1cCann being the lowest bidder, a contract was entered into with hiiii for the transportatioii of goods and supplies between
tl~ese two points for the fiscal year eiidiiig June 30, 1874, at $1.20 per
100 pounds per 100 miles.  Subsequent to the making of this contract
(27th July, 1873) the Red Cloud agency was removed from its location
on tlie Platte i~iver to a point on the ~Vhite River, about eighty miles
northward.  Upon tiie representations of ~IcCann as to the character of the country betweeji the old and new locations of the agency, atid
after a corresj~oiideiice on the sul~ject, (which is printed at pages 250 and
251, Report No. 77S, Forty-third Coiigress, first session, ilonse documents,) the Commissioner entered into a new contract with ~IcCai~n,
dated 20th of October, 1873, by which he agreed to pay $1.75 per 100
pounds per 100 miles for transportation of all goods and supplies from
Cheyenne to the new Red Cloud ageiicy for the fiscal year eii(ling June
30, 1874.  This contract states the distance to be 212 niiles.  On the 8th
of Jnly, 1874, another contract was made with the same party, for transporting the goods and supplies to that agency, from Cheyenne, for the
fiscal year ending June 30, 1875, "at $1.10 per 100 poni~ds l)er 100 miles,
actual measurement of the route necessary to be traveled."
Before taking the coiitract of the 20th of October, 1873, and before
writing tlie letter in which he represented the character of the country
betweeii the two agencies, and before the removal of the agency from
the Plitte, McCann had sublet the traiisportation, or a portion thereof,
nuder that contract to one C. llecht at $1 per 100 pounds from Cheyenne
to the old Red Cloud i~~~cy~ and ten ceiits per 100 pounds for each additional ten miles from the old location to the point where it might thereafter
be located.  This contract he made with ilecht on the 26th of June, 1873.
In this matter he overreached the Commissioner, and manifested bad
faith at every step of it.
Tlie subject of the distance seems to have engaged the attention of
the Commissioner of Indian Afftirs from the time of tlie rein oval of the
agency from the Platt~ and it appears that he withheld froiii McCann
tire paynients for transportation on his contract uiitil he could be safisfie~l as to the distance, aiid McCann, in writing, conseiited to receive a
portion, aiid to permit a sufficient amount to be retained to cover any
overestimate of distance till the final detern~ination of the question. This
was December 3, 1873.  (See copy of sanie, page 663 of testimony.)  Accordiji gly the C~~inniissioner has always withheld a suthcie~t ainouiit to
provi~le a margin to cover aiiy differeiice which might be found between
two hundred and twelve miles and the actual distance until after McCan ii entered into tlie contract for the year ending June 30,1876, when
he paid lii in in full for transportation doiie by hiin nuder liis cor~tract
ending June 30, 1 S75, but iiot until after he had given boiid for the perforinance of service under the subsequent contract. And siiice the payment there has accrued to McCann a credit for traiisportatiou nuder the
~ew contract sufficient to cover any overpay merit niade to him on the
former coiitract.  This payment to McCann of the entire ainoniit retained by his written consent to cover any deficiency growing out of
overestimated distance, was a transaction not characterized by the i)rndeuce and caution which should govern the action of the Coin missioner
in dealiiig with contractors, and arose from a misapprehension of the
legal effect of the accounts then adjusted.  The Commissioner tell into
the error of supposing there was a security to the Government in the fact 
LXII
that ~IcCann bad entered ii) to another coi~tract ai~d given a bond. The
bond was only for the faithful performance of the new contract, an~i
could not cover any responsibility growing out of the old.  N\Thile it
does appear that there has since been service performed under the iiew
contract, amounting to a sum probably sufficient to cover any overpayment heretofore made, there might occur itiuch difficulty in so apply-'
it and adjusting the account. lle was entitled under that coiitract to be
paid for the "actual measured distance," aiid the account for service
under that contract should llOt have been carried forward to be complicated with service under the present coo tract.  Yet we are satisfied
that. however imprudent the transaction and pernicious the precedent,
the Commissioner acted in entire good faith, au~l no loss will probably
result to the Government therefrom.
On the 28th of July, 1874, the Commissioner ordered an odometer to
be seiit to to the store-keeper of Indian sup~)lies at Cheyeni~e, with instructioiis to obtain the actual distance traveled by the trains transporting freight to the Red Cloud agency.  It was placed on a wagon on the
17th of August, 1874, but got out of order and did not effect the object.
In November, 1874, the distance was again measured by the odometer
N\hich indicated a distance of 226 -~- miles. This was rejected by the
100
(~ommissioner as being clearly erroneous, the distance never having
been estimated by any person to be so great, arid thereupon, on the
20th of November, 1874, he applied to the Secretary of the Interior to
requc~t the N\~ar Department to have the distance accurately measured.
This application was made, and on December 29, 1874, Lieutenant
Winters was detailed by General Ord, under orders of the Secretary
of War, to make the measurement.  lle attempted to do so, but was
prevented by the severity of the weather arid the drifted snows.  The
~~ar Department has again recently been requested by tlte Interior
Department to cause the distance to be ~easured.
The evidence taken by us as to the distance represents merely the
opinions of persons, for medupon the basis of the time occupied in riding
or driving from one point to the other. No actual or reliable measurement has ever been made. A route was measured by J. N\T llammond,
of Cheyenne, by Xiirection of the county authorities; but the evidence
shows that the route measured by hiu~ is not the one over which
goods and ~upplies are freighted, arid is equally satisfactory that it is
entirely impracticable for heavily-loaded wagolis.  ~Ir. Hammond reports the distance measured ~ him at 1451 miles. The character of the
countly is such, tliat extensive detours aic often required to be made
in the roads to avoid steep declivities arid the extensive and deep
deposits of loose sand.
At a period of time which we have not ascertai ried with certainty, but
before the removal of the Red Cloud agency, 1~IcCann opened a new
route from Cheyenne to the old agency, by which tlie distance was materially shortened, so as not to exceed niiiety miles.  This is the route
now traveled by liis freight-trai~js to the new agelicy.  Iri the ol)inion of
the commission, based upon all the trustwort~iy inforrn~tioii we have
been able to gather, the real distance from Cl~~veniie to Red Cloud
agency by the route usually traveled by the teams ei~gagcd in fl-eighting goods and supplies does not exceed one huiidred and eigl~ty miles.
This distance may at tinies be increased by the necessity of going to
a ferry when the Platte i~iver is too much swollen to be lordable at the
~snal place of crossing.  The contract for the current fiscal year has
been let at $1.65 per one hundred pounds for the whole distai~ce. This is
the proper method, in the opinion of the commission, of letting such con 
LXIII
tracts, rather tha~ per one hu~dred pounds per one hundred miles, as
`vas lierctofore tl~e custom.
It is certain that duni~g a portion of the time before the removal of
tlic agency from the Platte ~IcCann trai~~ported the~frcight over the
`icw routte, which is niliversally conceded liot to be more than ninety
ii~iies, atid yet lie charge~l aiid received iiay fi'oai tlie ~overiiinent at
tlie rite of otie liiiiidn~d and thirty-two i~iles. -This is not tlie only act
()f ~1r. ~IcCaiiu which 11(15 (i'ttr'icte(I our attentio~i.  IJe seeiiis to have
beeii empioye~1 iu the reiiiOv~il of tlie sul)1)lies, cain I~, aiid office furniture,
aiiil II1d~(iU5 fioin th-~ old I~~ed Cloud ageiicy oil the Platte i~iver in July
;tiiil August, 1873.  The reiiiov~il took place about the time that J. W.
Daiiiels, subsequently an insliector, ceased to be agent at i~ed Cloud,
hid about the time that J)r. Saville assumed the duties of agetit.  As
this removal had been acconiplislied by ~Ir. Daniels, lie made out a certificate ou the 27th of August, 1873, for tlie guidance of his Successor
iii settling the accounts for that transportatioii, an~l set forth in this certificate the number of ox-teams and of two aiid fi~ur-liorse teams, the
names of the parties iii charge of the teams, aiid the number of days
that each had been employed with the work, commencing on the 28th
of July and ending the 18th of August.  lie makes the number of fiveyoke ox-teams to be thirty, two four-mule teams, and niiie two-horse
teams, making forty-one vehicles altogether employed in the transpor.
tation. lie fixes the time of each team, varying froin five to sixteen
(lays. (See pi). 627 and 628.) Assuming this certificate to be a fair preseiitation of the account for transportation performed under his orders,
antl allowing Mr. McCann $2.50 per day for each yoke 6f cattle em~iloyed, $10 per day for each two-horse team, and $20 per day for each
four-horse team, and $7.50 per day, which seems to have been allowed
to ~lr. Jones, the whole bill should have amorinted to not more than
$5,117.50. This wasabont the sum, as we learned, for which Jules Ecoffee
aiid F. D. Yates proposed in advance to contract to perfortu the duty.
And yet, on the 20th of January, 1874, McCann makes out an account
for the service of fifty teams, of five yoke of cattle each, for tweiity-three
days, from July 28 to Au~nst 19, 1873, both days itidusive, at ~2.50 per
(lay tbr each yoke of cattle employed, amouiiting to $14,375.  The correctiiess of this account is certified by Dr. Saville, and paid from the
pul)lic Treasury, tithough rejected by the Boar~l of Iiid ian Commissioners.
~Vhatever inay have been the means used by ~IcC~~nn to obtain the
contract for tlie removal of the property and effects from tlie 01(1 agency
to tlie new; whatever he may have done to procure Dr. Savilie's apliroval of that extraordinary voucher, w lietlier fran~lulently obtained or
not, tiie charge for the service rendered is so exorbitatit and unreasonable as to shock the moral sense of any mait who looks into the transaction.  The papers in evidence before us bear upoti their face such utimistakable e~-idences of lrau~I, that we recointriend the refereiice of. this
subject to tlie Departiiient of Justice, that measures may be taken to
have restored to the Cuovertitnent what seems to have been so unjustly
`.ind fituduletitly taken from it.
If the I~ed Cloud and ~Vhetstoue agencies shall be confinued at their
preseilt locatioii, theii we reconimeiid that the coiitract for freighting
goods and supplies from the railroads to the agencies be let on bids, to
be received at Cheyenne or Sidney, by the store-keeper of Indi~~tn goods
and supplies, under the dire~tion of the Cotnniissioner of Indiaii Affairs;
and, lii order to determine the best point to ship to on the railroad, that
the bids be invited for freighting to both agencies from both Sidney and
Cheyenne per one hundred pounds for the whole distance. 
LXIV
The continuation o~ the present location of the Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies is utterly inconsistent witli any sound views of econorny or policy in subsisting or civilizing tlie bands fed and clothed there.
The buffalo has disat)peared almost entirely; the small game has becoine so scarce, that not one of all the different bands of Sioux, Cheyennes, or Arapahoes could subsist for thirty days without the supplies
furnished by the Government.  If rations`i~~ withheld from them, they
starve. They know this full well. The time has l)assed when the Governnieiit is compelled to pay a!0y exorbitaiit price for peace.  They
should not be abandoned to starve or to prey upon the herds of the stockrai~eis of tl~e plains, but their cal)rices and exactii~g aiid unreasonable
whims need not longer govern the terii~s on which they siiallbe subsisted.
~V1i'ttever may l~ave been the reasons controlling the Indian Burean
in the locatioii of the Red Cloud aiid Spotted Tail agencies at the time,
cert'iil)ly they no loi~ger exist. I~ed Cloud agen~y is distant from Cheyenne,
on the Union I~acific Railroad, about one hundred aiid eighty miles by the
ii~arest l~ra(~ticable route for freighting supplies. The distance from the
Spotted Tail or ~Vhetstone agency to Fort Ran~tall, the nearest lauding
on the ~Iissouri River, is two hundred and sixty.three miles. Both these
age'~cies are located in a sterile, barren regioli, affording grazing for
stock, but unfitted for any other of the occupations of civilized life. If
the Indian is to be taught to till the soil, his lessons there would be
hard indeed, aiid his discouragemeiits such as utterly to disgust him.
If they had all the arts of the white man and the aids of all his science
they coul~l not subsist by agricultural pursuits in that region. The cost
of transportation of goods and supl)lies for the Iiidians to the Red Clond
agency irom Cheyenne for the year 1874 was $~J2,487.6(); and the cost
of transporting goods and supplies from tlie 1~issouri River to Spotted
Tail`igenQy, iii the same year, was $35,865.()7, making, in the aggregate, $128,352.67; some of the sui)plies costing for their transporation
from the railroad to the agency a suni almost equal to their original cost
in the produce iii ark ets ot the N\rest.  Tlie maintenance of garrisons of
troops at Cauip Robinson and at Caiup Sheridaii for the protection of
these agencies renders iiecessary the transj~ortatiou by wagons of all
the quartermas~er stores and comniissary supplies for the forces kept
there. This transl)ortation froiii Cheycniie or Siducy or Fbrt Randall
ii~volves an eiiormous expense to the Goverii ment, which, added to the cost
of transporting the Iiidian goo~ls and supplies, amounts to so large a
sum that the coi~tinued expenditure of it for the mere gratification of
a whim of the Indians woul~l be utterly inexcusable.
Tlie fourth article of the Treaty of 1868 i)rovided that these Indians
shoul~l be located on the Alissouri River, and at least a portion of them
weic located there for a time. The reasons for the removal of their
agency so far iiiland, as well as the reasons for the removal of the
Red Cloud agency froin the North Platte to its present location, about
eighty.fi~e miles farther away from the railroad, and likewise for the
rem~}val of the Sliotted Tail agency to a point twelve miles farther from
the railroad than its first location, are not al)parent to the commission.
If the Govern merit must feed these Indians, (and there is no treaty obligation do so,) let it teed them where they can be fed and clothed most
cheaply. At any point on the Missouri River oii their reservation they
can be furnished with supplies at the price of those articles in tlie grain
and produce markets of the West.  Besides, neither of these agencies
is situated upon the Sioux reservation as required by the Treaty.  A depot of supplies should be located on the Missouri, and a military force
sufficiently large should be stationed there for its protection, and all the 
LXV
bands of Red Cloud and Spotted Tail be compelled to move into that
vicinity.  We suggest that if no suitable location for the Sioux exists on
the Missouri River on the present reservation set apart to them, the
small tribe of Poncas be removed to the Indian Territory, and the Sioux
be put upon the reservation now occupied by them.  The Cheyennes and
Arapahoes now fed at Red Cloud agency number together less than three
thousand. They have had a reservation set apart to theni in the Indian
Territory, and have since agreed, under the forms heretofore called a
"treaty," to go to their reservation.
They should be compelled to go there at once, not alone because they
are bound by treaty to do so, but because it is for their good.  The
older men among the Sioux realize the inability of their tribe to war
successfully against the whites, but they have been accustomed to be
humored in their unreasonable caprices, and hired by presents to do
even what is for their sole good. The young men see all this, and,
believing that they are more numerous than the whites, attribute the
muijificence of the Government to fear on its part.
We suggest that a display of force sufficient to correct all these false
impressions on the minds of the young men, and to carry the conviction
home to them that the time for their arrogant dictation of the place
where they will feed upon the bounty of the Government has passed,
would prove a measure of economy.
THE SE~RETARY OF THE INTERIOR.
llaving now disposed of the ten specific heads under which Professor
Marsh has arraigned the agent, contractors, and other subordinate per.
sons connected with the Red Cloud ageitcy, it is proper that we should
proceed to notice the grounds upon which he excuses himself in making his direct appeal to the President of the United States to investigate
the alleged abuses in the Indian Department, instead of relying for
their correction upon the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissionerof Indian Affairs, whose official duty it unquestionably is promptly
to investigate and expose all frauds in that Department.  In explanation and vindic~tion of this appeal he announces to the President:
First. That he has "no confidence whatever in the sincerity of the Secretary of the Interior or the Commissioner of Indian Affairs when they
publicly announce their wish and determination to correct the present
abuses in Indian management," because be declares that he has "reason
to know that they have long been aware of these abuses, and have
made no sincere effbrt to reform them."
Secondly. That in all his intercourse with those two officials, their
object manifestly was to ascertain the extent of the information he possessed, not so much to learn what the frauds actually were as to prevent, by all the means in their power, an exposure of them.
Thirdly. He declares that he has evidence now in his possession reflecting unfavorably upo~ those two prominent officers of the Government.
These are grave charges, which, if proven, ought to subject both officers to impeachment by the Rouse of Representatives.
All the complaints of Professor Marsh relate exclusively to the
management of Indian affairs.  This is one of the bureaus under the
supervision and control of the Interior Department.  The duties of
that Department are very multifarious and extensive, and embrace
many important branches of administration; and it has become the
settled practice of our Government that each separate bureau transacts
51F 
LXVI
the business pertaining to itself, unless the head of the Department is
applied to for counsel and advice, or an appeal is taken froin the decision of the Bureau by some person who feels himself aggrieved. N\Te thus
find that the Secretary of the Interior personally has but little coniiection
with any of the contracts made for the In~lian service, or with the adjust.
ment and payment of the accounts returnable tb that Office. We have
not been able to learn that the late Secretary of the Interior was consulted or had any direct official connection with any of the contracts
relating to the Red Cloud agency; nor have we learned that he had
any official connection with any of the accounts presented for payment
at that Bureau, except those which, if allowed there and rejected by the
Board of Indian Commissioners, necessarily came before him for final
adjudication. A list of these claims, disallowed by that Board and sub~equently paid by the Secretary of the Interior, amounting to near half
a million dollars, came before us for examination in a document published under a resolution of the House of Representatives, marked "Ex.
Doc. ~o. 123," Forty-third Congress. The original vouchers and papers
upon which these claims were ordered to be paid by the Secretary were
called for and brought before us for examination. They were carefully
examined by two members of the commission, Messrs. Fletcher and
llarris, who reported that none of them had been rejected by the Board
of Indian Commissioners because tainted with fraud, but mainly because of some technical difficulty, or an honest diversity of~opinion between the Indian Bureau and the Board of Indian Commissioners, upon
some question of law arising in those cases. They further stated that
in no instance were any such payments made without having been submitted to the law officer of that Department, and having his legal opinion in their favor.
It is no part ot the duty of this commission to inquire into the exercise by the Secretary of the Interior of those large discretionary powers
vested in him by law.  Whether his legal judgment be right or wrong
upon questions of law does not fall within the province of our inquiry.
If there be nothing in the case that involves ai~y imputation of fraud or
corruption we have nothing to do with it.
Subsequent tt) the date of the claims embraced in the document referred to, which only extends to the 23d of January, 1874, was the payment by order of the late Secretary ofthe Interior of an ac~ount of$14`375
claimed by D. J. McCann, for the removal of Government stores, &c.,
from the old to the new Red Cloud agency. This claim we have already
referred to in a previons~part of this report, and we can regard it in no
other light than asiniquitous and fraudulent. It mightbeunjust tocondemn the late Secretary for the payment of this claim, as we do not know
that the certificate of the former agent, J. W. Daniels, accompanied
the voucher of McCann.  It is probable that it did not, and that McCann
relied exclusively upon the voucher furnished him by Saville. If we
had any assurance that he directed its payment after having seen that
certificate, we should hold him obnoxious to the severest condemnation.
The facts which our inquiries have elicited, under the charge of official delinquei~cy and concealment of fraud made by Professor Marsh
against the Secretary of the Interior, are briefly these:  N\Te can learn
of but three occasions upon which the aftention of the head of the Department was called to the existence of any abuses and frauds at the
Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies.
First. On the 17th of May, 1873, Col. F. C. Kemble and Henry
F. Alford, in connection with other important duties iii the West, were
directed specially to investigate and report ui)on certain complaints of 
LXVII
mismanagement at the Sioux agencies. At that time J N\T Daniels was
the agent at Red Cloud, and Colonel Risley had, until within a few days
previous, been agent at Spotted Tail, but had been removed from office,
and his place supplied by Major E. A. lloward. On the 16th of June
these gentlemen prepared their report at the Red Cloud agency, and 011
the 1st of July it was laid before the Interior Department. This report
limits its exposures to the Spotted Tail or Whetstone agency, and
charges gross ~rands as between the agent, Risley, and the beef contractors, alleging that the quantity of beef actually received was less than
that receipted for to the contractor; expresses the opinion that the Indians are receiving subsistence much in excess of their true number;
and further reports "such a state of irregularity, confusion, and corruption at this agency, the result of the management of the late agent,
that they recommend a special investigation of its affitirs covering his
whole term, and a suspension of the settlement of his accounts and out.
standing vouchers, and indebtedness certified by hi in, until such investigation can be had." They also exposed before that Department the
frandulent character of the Graves transportation contract, and requested a suspension of any payment upon it. In accordance with this
recommendation, J. W. Daniels, formerly agent at Red Cloud, but then
promoted to the office of Indian inspector, was deputed to make this
special investigation at the Spotted Tail agency. Mr. Alvord, in his
letter to this commission, of September 11, 1875, finds fault with the
Secretary of the Interior for having intrusted that investigation to Mr.
Daniels, upon the ground that he liad just ceased to be agelit at Red
Cloud, and "could not have exposed in detail the irregularities and corruption of his ueighbor without implicating himself." ~Ve cannot concur in the force of this objection of Mr. Alvord.  We have never heard
of any charges preferred against Mr. Daniels while agent at Red Cloud.
Messrs. Kemble and Alvord, although specially directed to inquire into
Mr. Daniels's administration, and while they date their official report
from the Red Cloud agency, make no charges against him. lie was
deemed worthy of promotion by the President and Senate to the important office of inspector, and he has ever since held important trusts in
connection with Iiidian'affairs without, so far as we kiiow, any assault
upon his character. Commissioner Smith, in his examination before us,
states that Colonel Kemble certainly, if not Mr. Alvord also, specially
recommended Mr. Daniels, who had then become an inspector, to follow out
the investigations which they bad commenced, but were unable to finish.
"Be was recommended to me as the proper man to push it through."
Mr. Daniels made his report on the 30th of August, 1873. In this report, after referring to the fact that he had met the late Agent Risley
in Omaha with the papers connected with his duties as agent, he proceeds to say:
After a full investigation into tlie affairs connected with the Whetstone agency, under
late Agei~t Risley, I do not find that there has been any more supplies receipted for than
were received.  The issue of rations was made upon the number of lodges as given by the
Indians themselves, and statements of disinterested parties, both whites and Indians, are that
there were from fifteen to twenty hundred lodges present to receive supplies during
the fall and winter of l~72-'73; also, at times the action of the Indians in supporting their
demands for the number of lodges stated, was such as to render the lives of Government employds insecure, unless conceded.
lie reports the number of laborers employed at the ageiicy to be in
excess of what the public service required. lie confirms the fradulent
character of the Graves trausportation contract, aii d it inay here be i~emarked that the claim of Graves for compensation under that contract 
LXVIIL
has been ever since repudiated by the Department "on account of tbe
undoubted fraud in it."
Secondly. On the 28th of October, 1873, Samuel Walker, clerk of the
Board of Indian Commissioners, was deputed by that Board to visit the
Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies, and to make a report of what
occurred to him worthy of observation.  On the 6th of December of
that year Mr. Walker made his report to the llon. Felix R. Brunot,
president of that Board.  This report was highly unfavorable to the
administration of affairs at these agencies, and presented details of
abuse and probable fraud worthy of further investigation.  By an inadvertence upon the part of Mr. Brunot, which is explained in his letter
of the 6th of February, 1874, no copy of this report was forwarded to
tbe Secretary of the Interior until he, having from other sources, about
the 4th of February, 1874, learned of its exi~tence, wrote to Mr. Brunot
for a copy.  A copy was furnished to the Secretary on the 11th of
February.  On the 16th of March, 1874, a commission, consisting of
Bishop ~Vm.11. Ilare; Rev. S. D. llinman, or fifteen years a missionary
among the San tee Sioux, J. D. Bevier, United States Indian inspector, and
F. II. Smith, one of the Board of Iudian Commissioners, were assembled
and in session at Red Cloud agency to investigate the facts embraced
in Mr. Walker's report.  After more than a niouth's investigation this
commission, on the 22d of April, made an elaborate report, exonerating
Agents Saville and lloward from the charges of fraud, and dedaring
the administration of their respective agencies "deserving of confidence
and ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There does not appear, therefore, in any of the transactions above
referred to, and which occurred prior to the personal interview of Professor Marsh with the Secretary of the Interior, any evidence that this
officer had been long aware of abuses at the Indian agencies without
making any sincere effort to investigate and reform them.
Thirdly. We now come to theimputation by Professor Marsh of a want
of public zeal manifested by the Secretary of the Interior iii relation to
the abuses and frauds, the existeuce of which he sought to impress
upon his mind in his personal interview with him, and we cannot better
dispose of this delicate branch of the inquiry than by presenting the
account given by both these gentlemen respecting that interview.
Secretary Delano, in a letter addressed to this commission, under
date of July 20, 1875, speaks as follows:
The first time that I met Professor Marsh was during the council of the Sioux Indians, in
this city, in May last, and after much had been said in the public prints in reference to his
complaints regarding the Red Cloud agency, when, being informed that he was in the roont
at one of these meetings, and being desirous to learn from him what he knew on the subject
referred to, I made myself known to him and requested him to call upon me.  Subsequently
he came to my office, and during that interview I earnestly req~ested him to furnish me with
such information as he had, and with all the proofs that he could refer to against the agent
at Red Cloud, which he declined to do.  General Eaton, Commissioner of Education, was
present during this interview, and I shall endeavor to obtain from him a letter referring to it.
I have now stated, I think, correctly. my entire intercourse with Professor Marsh, and
have referred to all that has ever transpired between us, either orally or in writing.
Professor Marsh, in his examination before the commission on the
twentieth of July last, in the city of New York, testified as follows:
When I was in the Indian Bureau, the Secretary sent in a messenger stating that he was
in his room, and would like to see me, and then I went in and had a long talk with him.
Q. That was in May?
A. No, sir; June 5. Then he asked me for my information in regard to the Red Cloud
agency; that was the first request I had from him for it.  He asked me for it in a conversational way.  I told him that when the committee was appointed I understood they would
call on me for information, and when they did I would give them specific information in regard to the niatter.  Then he asked me to give it to him. I told him it was not ready; that 
LXIX
I was going back to New Haven, and when I got there, if he wished for this information
before the committee was appointed, if he would write to me, making a request for it, I
would send it to him.  He requested it orally, axid although I did not decline, I did not say
I would give it to him alone.  Then he made another request, and I gave him some of the
main points, stating them as I have given them to you, and in few words orally.  But I
to~d him that it was a matter I must consider, as I had not decided what I should do.
I told him distinctly that, if this committee was ap~pointed, I would give the committee (as
I had informed the Commissioner) this specific infbrmation.  I told him I would think it
over and see him again before I left town.  I'called a second time, and he was not there;
but I told General Cowen to tell the Secretary that, on thinking it over, I must keep this
iufbrmation myself; that he already had essentially the same information on file in the Department bearing on the agency, and that this information, having been obtained by myself,
I had not decided what I should do with it.  While we were talking Secretary Delano returned to his office, and I went there and had a long interview with him.  I repeated what
I had said to General Cowan, and also I stated that my promise was to show the samples to
the President, and I might possi~ly decide to send my evidence to him.  I might, perhaps,
puhlish it separately, and might possibly wait until Congress came together and give it to
Congress.  I told him a~ain that when the committee was appointed, then I stood ready to
give them my information; that is almost the exact wording of it.  Now, when I got Mr.
Smith's letter stating that the committee had been appointed and requesting the information, I wrote a reply, in which I stated that I would immediate~y proceed to prepare a detailed statement, and I went to work that night to get it ready. That I have done, and that
is the whole story.  (Testimony, pages 53 and 54.)
COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Upon the Commissioner the duty chiefly devolves ofadministering Indian
affairs.  Upon him rests the direct responsibility of that branch of the
public service. If it is honestly and successfully conducted, to him
belongs the honor.  If it is negligently or fraudulently administered, to
him should be awarded the coudemnatioti.  We have seen nothing in
the course of our investigations that would lead us to any other conclusion than that the present Coin missioner earnestly and sincerely desires
to pcrform his duty faithfully to the country.  We have encountered no
transaction which casts the least shadow upon his personal or official
integrity; but we have met with many marked by the want of that
vigilance, astuteness, and decision of character which should belong to
the head of that important Bureau.  We have already had occasion, in
the progress of this report, to comment upon acts of the Commissioner
which exhibit a want of~due diligence and a liability to be deceived and
imposed Ul)Oll by cuJining and nnp~ndpled men. It is unnecessary to
make further reference to those facts here; but in addition to such as
have been specially referred to in the preceding part of this report, we
would say that the forms of contracts, as prepared in the Indian Office,
do not seem to us to be marked by that clearness aiid precision, those
carefully-guarded provisions, minute specifications of terms of performance which should distinguish contract~ of such magnitude and interest to the public.  We think also it was itiexcusable to permit so
long a time to elapse without ascertaining tiie precise distance between
the railroad and the agencies, and especially as the contract of transportation was based upon an agreed compensation per mile. It was an
error not to have ascertained whether ~idney was not a shorter and
more economical point for wagon transportation from the railroad than
Cheyenne.  We think it an error to have let at New York the contract
for the wagon transportation from the railroad to the agencies, as it
prevented the freighters from entenug into any competition for that
transportation, and left the Bureau a prey to a speculating contractor,
~Ve believe that better arrangements could be devised than those which
now exist, aiid which necessitate the intervention of a contractor of
transportation upon the great highways of commerce, the railroads,
which extend from the eastern cities to the western.  We think he 
LXX
erred in paying to McCaiin the full amount of his transportation claims,
based upon the supposed distance of 212 miles from tlie railroad to the
agency, relying upon a new contract for transportatiou entered into
with him from which the Commissioner believed tlie Government could
be indemnified against possible loss, when the precise distance should
be snbsequently ascertained.  Such arrangements by the Bureau are
irregular and pernicious as precedeiits. We think he erred in authorizing Dr. Saville to select an inspector of flour at Cheyenne instead of
exercising that important function himself.  \Ve think he erred in supplying pork to the Indians instead of bacon, not simply because the
food is distasteful to the Indians, but because it also involves the needless cost of the transportation of the brine and barrel, they forming onethird of the cost of transportation thus paid for.
It is not to be denied that there has been improvement in the Indian
service under Commissioner Smith's administration.  ~Vhether this is
due exclusively to him or conjointly to him and the Board of Indian
Commissioners we need not attempt to determine. Each is, no doubt,
entitled to a proper share of credit for this gratifying result. The contracts are now more faithftilly executed, an d, so far as our visit afforded
us the opportunity of observatioi~, tlie recent supplies have been of an
unexceptionable character.
It is equally apparent that the temper and fedings of the Indians
bave undergone a very favorable change toward our people and Govertiment. Whether this has resulted from their growing perception of
the irresistible power of the Government, their decreasing means of subsistence upon the plains, the extensive scale upon which we supply their
animal wants, or the meritorious efforts to extend the blessings of Christianity and civilization among them, or to all these causes combined, it is
unnecessary for us here to express an opinion; but that the fact is so is
attested by the nniform opinion of every officer of the Army, and of
every trader and other person who was examined by us upon the subject. The iron bond of their tribal organization is rapidly weakening,
and the most eminent and distinguished chiefs now hold their positions
by a precarious tenure. We believe the day has gone by when a formidable Indian wt~r can ever again occur in this country.
GE~ERAL OB5EP~YATION5.
The policy of the Government in its relations to the Indian population of this continent could not fail to attract the attention of this cornmission in the course of the investigations which they have been conducting. From the earliest settlement of this country we have been in
the habit of treating the Indian tribes as sovereignties, or quasi sovereignties-of entering into treaties with them as we would with independent nations, and of regulating our intercourse witti them by the
provisions of such treaties. This was a very natural course upon our
part when they held and occupied so large a portion of the territory
embraced within the limits of the United States, when the tribes were
so numerous and powerful as to command such relations, and when the
means of their independent subsistence so largely abounded upon the
plains; but a different state of facts now exists. Their entire numbers,
throughout the wide extent of the Republic, have dwindled down to a
few hundred thousand persons, scattered over its territory. The extension of our settlements is driving them into the inarable plains and
mountains; their means of independent subsistence are rapidly di sappearing, and they are becoming more and more every day mere pension 
LXXI
ers upon our charity. It is readily seen that we have now but two
courses left open to us-to keep them as they are at present in their
large reservations, where they are unable to support themselves by agricultura! labor, and where we must continue to feed and c?othe them at
an oppressive cost to the people of the United States; or to remove
the in, if need be, by compulsion, to the Indian Territory, or to other
suitable localities, where, by industry and the cultivation of the soil,
they may provide the~selves amply with the means of subsistence.
The recent act of Congress, declaring that no more treaties should be
made with the Indians, shows that our Government is now fully awake
to our changed relations to that population.  It is the virtual announcement that a new policy is to be inaugurated, and that hereafter the Indians are not to be negotiated with as tribal sovereiguties, but treated
as individual inhabitants of the Republic within whose territory they
reside. Treaty obligations, whenever and however made, sh~uld be
rigidly observed.  So far as they have been made with the Indian nations who inhabit the territory set apart for them south of Missouri,
and wlio are co-operatiiig with the views of the Government, they are
not likely to be disturbed. But it would be idle to talk about the obligations of a treaty with the wild and nomadic tribes of the Northwest,
who, without any stipulation to that effect, are fed and clothed by our
bounty. A suspension of our humane supplies to them for three months
would readily cause the surrender of any treaty stipulation that might
interfere with the fixed policy of the nation.
N\Te believe the time has arrived when the policy foreshadowed by the
act of Congress above referred to should be vigorously enforced by additional legislation. The criminal laws of the United States should be
extended over the reservations, and when an Indian outside of a reservation shall commit an offense he should be made subject to the police and
criminal laws of the State in which such offense is committed. Some form
of territorial policy should be established for their government when
the nnmber and compactness of their population would render such an
organization, prosper. The individuality of the Indian as a member of
the community should be recognized, and the absurd fiction of tribal sovereignty in which that iii di viduality is now merged should be abolished.
Courts should be organized for the aJministration of justice over such
territory. The individual owiiership of property should be encouraged
under temporary restrictions on alieiiation, and the pnvileges of citizenship made accessible upon such terms as good policy may prescribe.
The evils that result from the absence of provisions like this are apparent.  Community of property is fatal to industry, enterprise, and civilizatioii, and exemption from legal responsibility for crime has stimulated depredations, robbery, murders, and assassination.
We are pleased to observe ill the last report of the Commissioner of
Indian Affairs a concurrence in many of the views above expressed, and
we feel fortified in our opinions by the authority of one whose opportunities for studying the Indian character have been so extensive.
We look with great favor npon the efforts which have bee~i made, and
especially of late years, to civilize and christianize the Indians. The
policy is wise, noble, and magnanimous, and while with the untutored Indian, reared in his own superstitious belief and false religion, progress must
necessarily be slow, yet the indications are sufficient to encourage persistent efforts in that direction.  We are pleased to hear of the erection
of school-houses, by which the nsii~g generation may gradually be
weaned from their savage instincts and trained to the blessings of civilization; and we heard with great satisfaction of the ardent ai~d successful 
LXXII
operations of the missionaries, by which churches are being erected, Sunday-schools established, and the blessings of Christianity made apparent
to the heathen mind.  Civilization can only spring from well-regulated
law, and in every effort to civilize the Indian the first lesson to be jillpressed upon his mind is liis individual responsibility. The next tmportant step is to impress upon him the necessity of individual property
as the only incentive to industry and thrift. There can be no ci vii ization except where the law is supreme, equally obligatory upon all, and
where property is held in individual right. The community of property
110W existing under the tribal organization is fatal to any advances in
civilization, and while this Commi~sion maintains the importance of individualizing property in those communities, they, nevertheless, recognize the fact that some proper restraints should be imposed upon alienation until the Indian has acquired greater advances in civilization.
In this connection we would respectfully recommend to Congress
the expediency of employing in each of the States and Territories,
where the number of Indians render any such provision proper, a man
learned in the law, whose duty it shall be to guard and protect the
rights and interests of the Indians in such State or Territory.  It should
be his duty at all times to keep a vigilant eye upon the co~~tractors and
agents, to initiate prosecutions for inj uries against the person or property of Indians, and to enforce all laws for their protection against
frauds. lle would stand forth there as the acknowledged protector of
the Indian, who would thus have some one always within reach to whom
he could apply for the redress of his wrongs.  This would gradually
habituate the Indian to rely upon the law for his protection, and not
upon the arm of assassination and murder, and would be one of the
most powerful instrumentalities toward openiug his eyes to the benefits of a civilized life. The cost of a single investigating committee would
pay for a sufficient salary for years for such a law-officer, and it would
become a measure of economy if; in connection with it, the offices of
superintendents of Indian affairs were abolished, which, fiom our observation of their duties and services, might well be done without loss
to the country.
The treaty pr~vision by which the Indian is kept separate and apart
from the white man in his reservation may in some aspects be a wise
and sound policy, but it cannot be the policy of civilization.  That can
only be imparted to the Indian by bringing him iu contact with its influences.  lle must see it and feel it to be penetrated by it. The existing law excludes from the reservation all persons of the white race
except those who are ready to abandon civilization itself for a disreputable association with Indian women.  Contact with such examples of
civilized life must tend rather to degrade and vilify it in the estimation
of the Indian himself. It would be far better so to amend our trade
and intercourse laws as to make some provision for the admission among
them of that class of white men whose respect for the laws of their
country now keeps them at a distance from the reservation.
N\Te think the day has gone by when the blanket should be furnished
to the Indian as extensively as it now is.  It serves to perpetuate his
barbarous costume and his idle habits.  If furnished with clothing at
all, it should be with such as is suited to his comfort, and in which it
will be possible for him to perform labor. In our interviews with the
Sioux, Cheyennes, and Arapahoes, many of them expressed an earnest
desire to be clothed like the white man. So the tented tepee only serves
to confirm and perpetuate his~nomadic habits.
N\~hile we would not wish to see the Indian treated otherwise than 
LXXIII
with kindness and magnanimity, we think that too much deference has
been shown to their whims and caprices in some important transactions
with them.  It is the testimony of men whose opportunities of forming
a judgment of Indian character cannot be questioned that the Indian
must be made to fear before he can be made to obey. No sentiment of
gratitude touches his heart because of the annual receipt from the
Government of food and raiment. He eats our bread and wraps himself
in our blanket with no other emotion than that they are gifts extorted
from our fears. Barbarism knows no law but that of force.  Much of
our policy has impressed him with the idea that our liberal supplies to
him are dictated by cowardice and cupidity; and when it is proclaimed
by those high in authority that our present policy is based upon the
maxim that it is cheaper to feed him than flg'~t hi in, we can perceive
how readily the Indian might fall into such a construction of our conduct.  In a recent conversation on the plains, General Crook remarked
to a member of this commission that it was humanity to the Indian to
make to him such a display of force as would cause him to fear the power
of this Government, and, if need be, to force him into prompt obe.
dience to the orders of a government which is burdened with his support in his transition state from barbarism to civilization.  Few men
better understand the Indian character than this distinguished military
officer, and none have had greater success in dealing with them and
advancing them in the habits of civilized life. We believe we speak
the opinion of the people of this country, who are taxe(i to the extent
of over $8,000,000 ayear for the Indian service, when we say it is time that
we should now adopt a fixed, positive, and determined policy in regard to
that population; a policy which will not only more clearly define their
rights, but more rigidly enforce their proper relations and resp~nsibilities to our Government.
The question whether it would be expedient to transfer the management of Indian affairs to the War Deparment was suggested to our at.
ten~ion from time to time, and we gave to the consideration of the subject such reflection and inquiry as our opportunities allowed.  Without
entering at length upon a discussion of the subject, it may be sufficient
to say, in general, that our conclusions are wholly unfavorable to such
a change at the present time.  There can be no question that the
change would involve a serious interruption of the present policy of
the Government, if not an entire abandonment of it; and, whatever
doubts any may possibly entertain of the complete ultimate success of
this policy, it would be extremely unwise to abandon, without the fullest
trial, a system of dealing which has thus far produced excellent results,
and which promises at least to pave the way toward elevating the
moral, civil, and political condition of the Indians.
There is, however, one branch of the Indian business in which we believe the services of Army officers might be wisely and advantageously
employed, viz: the inspection of goods and supplies.
We have already recommended that officers be detailed for the inspection of beef and beef-cattle at the Indian agencies; and, for reasons
similar to those already mentioned in that connection, we recommend
that all inspections of Indian goods (except annuity-goods, the inspection of which is provided for by treaty) and supplies at the points of
purchase and shipment, at terminal points of railroad transportation,
and at the agencies, before the articles pass into the possession of the
agents, be under the exclusive charge of the Commissary-General of the
Army. ~~ believe that such a system would not merely serve as a
salutary check on contractors, freighters, and agents, but would be of 
LXXIV
great use in satisfying the public mind that the service was fully and
faithfully performed. It won id seem desirable that a copy of the reports
of all such inspections should be transmitted through the proper channels to the Indian Office.
The fact that it has at times been found useful, and even necessary, to
employ friendly Indians as a kind of police about the Red Cloud agency,
and the good accounts we received of their efficiency and fidelity when
so employed, suggested to our incidental consideration the question
whether it might not be feasible to enroll them in companies, under
white officers, as a constabulary force for the protection of the agencies
and the enforcement of authority over wilder tribes. It is, of course, a
question how far such a system would prove practicable; but if it could
be employed it offers some manifest advantages, besides relieving some
portion of the Regular Army. It would train a certain number of Indians to habits of discipline and obedience to authority, as well as of
loyalty to the Government. This body would furnish a rallying point
to the well-affected portion of the tribe, and a menace of punishment to
the hostile or unruly. The number that could be induced to enlist would
probably be small at first, and they should be young, unmarried men,
who would be under the least temptation to move about with the villages. The subject seems to us of sufficient importance to recommend
its reference to a board of Army officers to consider and report upon.
REC0MMENDATI0~S.
In conclusion, we respectfiilly present the following summary of reccommendations, the most of which have already been discussed in their
proper connection:
1.That Agent Saville be removed.
2.That J. W. L. Slaveus, of Kansas City, Missouri, be excluded from
all participation in future contracts under any Department of the Govern ment.
3.That E. R. Threlkeld, of the same place, be excluded from all further
employment as inspector.
4.That no bid~ for supplies be hereafter received from J. II. Martin.
5.That D. J. McCann be excluded from future contracts with the Government.
6.That the papers relating to the account presented by D. J. McCann
for transportation of the property, stores, &c., of the Red Cloud agency
from the old to the new location be referred to the Department of Justice for examination and action.
7.That the distance from Cheyenne and from Sidney to the Red Cloud
and Spotted Tail agencies be accurately ascertained by measurement,
without unnecessary delay.
8.That a new and careful enumeration of the Sioux around the Red
Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies be made, and that the agents be required to make an enumeration of tbe northern Indians as they may
come in for supplies, and to keep a record of all issues made to them.
9.That bids for flour and other produce be received at some suitable
point in the West, instead of New York.
10. That bids for wagon transportation from the railroads to the
agencies be also received at suitable points in the West.
11. That the office of superintendent of Indian agencies be abolished, and the duties connected therewith be transferred to inspectors.
12. That the feasibility of dispensing with the' services of a freight. 
LXXV
contractor between eastern cities and terminal points of railroad transportation in the West be considered.
13.That in accordance with the provisions of the Treaty of 1868,
Army officers be detailed to inspect all issues of annuity goods, and that
all inspections of Indian supplies and beef be made under the direction of the Commissary.General of the Army.
14.That a carefully devised system of accounts, uniform (for all
agencies, be established, with the mode of issuing and accounting for
all articles definitely prescribed -
15.That the agencie.~ differing greatly as they do in the amount of
intelligence and cdpacity required to conduct then~, be so graded as to
establish for the most important ones salaries sufficient to secure the
services of thoroughly trained and competent men.
16.That the Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies (which are now off
the Sioux reservation) be removed to some suitable point nearer the Missouri River.
17.That a commission of Army officers be appointed to consider the
practicability of organizing au Indiau soldiery for police and similar
duty.
18.The establishment of a United States territorial government
over the Indian Territory.
19.That suitable persons, possessed of the necessary legal qualifications, be appointed to prosecute for all wrongs against Indians, and to
defend their rights and interests, as far as they may become the subject
of adjudication before the courts.
20.That all future legislation for the Indians, and all dealings with
them, be based upon the policy of bringing them as rapidly as possible
under the same law which governs all other inhabitants of the United
States.
21.The consideration of such additional legislation as will develop
and apply the general system of dealing with the Indians suggested
under the previous head of "General Observations."
TllOS. C. FLETCHER.
BENJ. W. HARRIS.
CHAS. J. FAULKNER.
GEORGE W. ATHERTON.
OCTOBER 16, 1875.  
LXXVII
NOTE TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
The following is the note from Professor Atherton accompanying the
copy of the report sent to the President:
RUTGERS COLLEGE, NEW BRUNSWICK, N. J.,
October 16, 1875.
SIR: I have the honor herewith to transmit a copy of the report of the
Red Cloud investigating commission, together with a printed copy of
the accompanying testimony.
Referring to your telegram of appointment of July 27, 1875, and the
letter of instructions of July 30, 1875, received from you through the
Secretary of the Interior, I have the honor to state that immediately on
receipt of your telegram I proceeded to Cheyenne, where I joined Messrs.
Fletcher, Harris, and Faulkner on the 31st of July. They had already
taken testimony in New York, Omaha, and Cheyenne, which they placed
at my disposal, and from that timb onward I have fully participated in
all their work, including the preparation of the report now submitted.
The commission has acted throughout as a single body, and the conclusions reached are the result of our joint deliberations, and express
our unanimous judgment. For this reason I have, at the request of the
three members nominated by the Board of Indian Commissioners, joined
them in signing the report which they have addressed to that body, of
which the one herewith transmitted is a copy.
It may be proper to say, however, that in case my conclusions had
differed on any important point from those of the other members of the
commission, I shouid have deemed it my duty to submit to you a separate report, but the course which I have adopted seemed more in accordance with the spirit of your instructions, and I trust it will meet your
approyal. The Hon. Timothy 0. Howe, to whom, jointly with mysdf,
your letter of instructions was addressed, has been present with the
commission during a small part of its investigations. He was not present
at any time during the preparation of the report, and his name consequently does not appear among the signers.
I have the honor, sir, to be, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
The PRESII)ENT.                     G. W. ATllERTON.  
TllE TESTIMONY.
FIFTH AVENUE HOTEL, NEW YORK
Monday, July 19, 1875.
The commissioners met and organized.  Present, Hon. THOMAS C".
FLETCHER, chairman; Hon. B. W. HARRIS, and Hon. CHARLES J.
FAULKNER.
Professor 0. C. Marsh appeared and presented to the commissioners,
a~ their request, a copy of a printed pamphlet containing his letters to
the President, of the 10th of July, as follows:
A STATEMENT OF AFFAIRS AT RED CLOUD AGENCY, MAl)E
TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, BY PROFES  SOR 0. C. MARSH.
To the President of the United States:
SIR: In the two interviews I have had with you on Indian affairs, I
was impressed with your earnest desire to do justice to the Indians,
and with your broad and philanthropic views on the whole Indian question.  This must be my excuse, as a private citizen, for coming again
to you, to lay before you a statement of wrongs committed on the Sioux
Indians, mainly under my own observation, during a recent visit to
their country.  My visit to this region was wholly in the interests of
science, with no intention or wish to investigate Indian affairs.  The
frauds I observed were brought to my notice by Red Cloud, who refused
to allow my party to enter the "Bad Lands" until I had promised to
submit his complaints to you, in person.
Since my last interview with you upon this subject, I have been informed by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs of the appointment of a
committee to investigate affairs at the Red Cloud agency, and invited
to lay a statement of the facts before them.  This I am quite ready to
do whenever the committee request it.  I must decline, however, to
give my statement to the Interior Department alone, for the following
reasons:
1st. I have no confidence whatever in the sincerity of the Secretary
of the Interior or the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, when they pub.
licly announce their wish and determination to correct the present ab uses
in Indian management, because I have reason to know that they have
long been aware of these abuses, and bave made no sincere effort to reform them.  2d. In all my intercourse with these two officials, th~ir object has manifestly been to find out, not so much ~hat the frauds actually
were, as the extent of my information concerning them, so as to prevent, by every means in their power, all publicity or exposure of them.
3d. The evidence now in my possession reflects unfavorably on both
Secretary Delano and Commissioner Smith.
For these reasons, I have thought best to lay before you, to whom, in
accordance with my promise to Red Cloud, I made my first communication, the accompanying statement in detail, in full confidence that the
evidence presented will meet with the consideration its importance dc.
mands.
lIF 
2
In the statement which accompanies this letter, I have given the resuits of my investigation into the affairs of Red Cloud agency, the
largest and most important in the West. These results clearly indicate
both mismanagement and fraud, especially in the following particulars:
1 st. The agent, J. J. Saville, is wholly unfitted for his position, and
guilty of gross frauds upon the Indians in his charge.
2d. The number of Indians at this agency has been systematically
overstated, for purposes which can only contemplate fraud.
3d. The last issue of annuity goods, which I witnessed, was a suspicious transaction, and, in part, at least, fraudulent.
4th. The beef-cattle given to the Indians have been very inferior
owing to systematic frauds practiced by the agent and beef.contractors.
5th. The pork issued to the Indians during my visit was not suitable
for human food.
6th. The flour was very inferior, and the evidence of fraud in this ~tide is conclusive.
7th. The sugar and coffee issued were not good, althongh better than
the other supplies.
8th. The tobacco observed was rotten, and of little or no use to the
Indians.
9th. In consequence of fraud and mismanagement, the Indians suffered greatly during the past winter for want of food and clothing.
10th. The contract for freight from Cheyenne to Red Cloud agency
was fraudulent, as the true distance is 145 miles, while the contractor
was paid for 212 miles.
I would especially call your attention to the evidence of fraud in beefcattle, as presented in the accompanying statement. This subject I investigated with much care, as beef is the principal article of food of the
Sioux Indians, and the frauds I observed have caused great suffering
among them, as well as great pecuniary loss to the Government.
The statement I have prepared is snpported in all its essential parts
by the testimony of officers of the Army, who were with me on my expedition, or at tbe Red Cloud agency. Among these officers are several
personally known to you, and all are gentlemen of high character.
Should any part of my statement be seriously questioned, I trust you
will allow these genflemen to be heard. If the commanding officers of
all posts near Indian agencies, or other equally trustworthy and disinterested observers there, could likewise testify, I think it would be
found that I have but faintly indicated the corruption pervading Indian
affairs.
I have purposely confined myself in this statement to a single agency,
and mainly to the time of my visit, without reference to much other
testimony which has come to me incidentally in the prosecution of my
inquiries, showing frauds of equal magnitude at other points. This corruption, which is a constant source of discontent and hostility`among
the Indians themselves, is, in my judgment, a natural result of the present loose and irresponsible system of furnishing the Indians with goods
and supplies, a system that tends directly to invite fraud.  I do not
believe that anything but a radical change in this respect will prevent
the continued demoralization of the Indian service. You alone havc',
the will and the power to destroy that combination of bad men, known
as the Indian ring, who are debasing this service, and thwarting the
efforts of all who endeavor to bring to a full consummation your noble
policy of peace.
Yery respectfully, your obedient servant,
0. C. MARSll.
YALE COLLEGE, July 10th, 1875. 
3
To tlte Presidc~tt ~~ tite Uitite~~ St~~tes
SIR: In November last, while on a geological expedition to explore
the "Bad Lands" south of the Black llills, I was obliged to pass near
P~ed Cloud ageuQy, and was detained there several days by the opposition of the Sioux Indians. In endeavoring to propitiate the Indians,
and obtain their permission to proceed with my party, I held several
councils with Red Cloud and his principal chiefs, saw the issue of
annuity goods and provisions, and had other opportunities of seeing
the actual state of affairs at this important agency.  I found the Indians in want of food and clothing, greatly dissatisfied with their agent,
J. J. Saville, and strong in the belief that they were systematically
defrauded of the goods and supplies sent them by the Government. In
one council, attended by nearly all the prominent chiefs, Red Cloud
made specific charges of fraud against the agent and contractors, and
nrged me to make this known to the Great Father, and to carry to him
samples of the rations the Indians were then receiving. ~Iainly to gain
consent for my expedition to proceed, I made Red Cloud the promise
he desired.  Soon after, be gave me samples of flour, sugar, coffee, and
tobacco, to show to you, assuring me that they were the rations be himself was using, and fair samples of those lately issued to his people.
In consequence of the promise thus made to Red Cloud and his associates, their immediate opposition to my proposed explorations ceased.
Other difficulties were successively overcome, the expedition at last
reached its destination, and fully accomplished its purpose, notwithstanding great suffering from cold, and open hostility of the Indians
around us. When about to return, we escaped a large war-party of Indians in consequence of warning and assistance sent by Red Cloud.
This act of kindness led me on my return to the agency to make further
investigations there, especially in the directions indicated by the chiefs,
and I soon found reason to believe that their statements of mismanage.
ment and fraud were essentially true.  The information I received also
from officers of the Army, and other trustworthy observers familiar
with the subject fully confirmed this, and proved, moreover, that affair
at this agency had long ~een in the same condition.
On my return to the East, my professional duties prevented me for
some time from fulfilling the promise made to Red Cloud; but in April
last, as you will remember, I gave you his message, showed you the
sample of rations he had intrusted to me, and received from you the
assurance of your wish to do full justice to the Indians, and correct any
abuses in their management. I then regarded my mission at an end.
As a matter of courtesy, I showed to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs
the same samples, and told him of various things I saw at the Red
Cloud agency that indicated a bad state of affairs there; naturally sup.
posing that such information, from a disinterested observer, would be
kindly received, and existing wrongs be prevented in future.  I regret
to say that the information I ventured to offer to this official was far
from acceptable; the inferior rations I exhibited were plausibly explained, and the damaging facts I had observed were considered of little
consequence. Commissioner Smith's manner of receiving this inform ation naturally deterred me from giving him many other facts of a similar
nature then in my possession, and I have since deemed it best to withhold them.
Subsequently I met the Board of Indian Commissioners in New York,
at their request, and gave them a more full account of the condition of
things at Red Cloud and other agencies that I had visited.  I again 
4
showed the rations Red Cloud had given me, and stated to the cornmis','ioners that, while I did not vouch for these particular samples, I had
flo reason to doubt, from all I saw at his agency, that they fairly represented the supplies issued during my visit.  I gave, also, a detailed statement of some of the frauds in beef-cattle and other supplies, and
showed that these had resulted in great suffering among the Indians
during the past winter.  In answer to their inquiries, I pointed out to
the commissioners the great defects in the present system of supplying
the Indians with food and clothing, and how, in my opinion, these defects could be remedied.
A few days afterward the following letter appeared in the public
press.  It explains itself.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,
Washington, B. C., May 10.
Sm: I am desirous of appointing a commission from the members of your board to
investigate certain reports put in circulation by a Mr. Marsh, relative to the Indian
service at Red Cloud agency, and I write you to request that you will consult with
your board and name to me snch members of it as may be designated to make the
investigation.  It would be well to have the commission consist of three members.
Should you be unable to designate them from your board, will you do me the favor to
recommend some other suitable persons as commissioners ~ I desire to have the commission named by yourself or the board of which you are president.
Yours, &c.,
C.DELANO.
Hon. C~IxToN B. FISK,
President Boa~~? of In('ian Comm Issioiz ers.
Supposing that this commission would be appointed, I at once took
measures to obtain the testimony of those who were with me on my
expedition, and others familiar with the facts I had observed, since I
felt confident that all I had stated about mismanagement of Indian
affairs could be readily substantiated by abundant evidence.
While the Sioux delegations were in Washington, in June last, I had
the honor of meeting personally, on his invitation, the honorable Secretary of the Interior.  He informed me that he had long taken a deep
interest in the Indians, and had had great experience in the management of their affairs.  He was especially interested in the efforts to
Christianize and civilize these wards of the nation, and he earnestly
entreated me to aid him in the enterprise.  His appeal in behalf of this
noble work-of which so much is said in the East, and so little seen in
the West-moved me deeply; but having uo time and little inclination
for such professional philanthropy, I was obliged to decline.  The state
of affairs at Red Cloud agency in November last, to which I directed
his attention, he declined to discuss; but, in the most solemn manner,
assured me that if I would give him all my information on this point,
he would at once see that the abuses, if any existed, were officially
removed.  He manifested great sorrow that I had not brought Red
Cloud's samples directly to him-a service which Red Cloud himself,
who knew the honorable Secretary did not ask me to perform.
In reply to the urgent request of' the honorable Secretary for the information in my possession about Indian affairs, I informed hini that
whenever the commission he intended to appoint, or any other commission empowered to ascertain the whole truth, should be ready, I would
cheerfully co-operate with it in every w~y in my power.
A month later, or July 2d, I read in the newspapers the following letter-the onginal of which, dated July 1, 1S74, I subsequently received
by mail: 
5
~VASHLNGTOx, Ju'y 1~ 1875.
The lion. F. P. Smith, Indian Commissioner, sent the following letter to-day to
Professor Marsh at New Haven:
At the request of the honorable Secretary of the Interior, the Board of Indian
Commissioners have nominated as a committee to investigate affairs at Red Cloud
agency the Hon. A. H. Bullock, of N\~orcester, Mass.; the Hon. Thomas C. Fletcher, of
Saint Louis, Mo., and the Hon. George N\T Lane, of the chamber of commerce, New
York; and it is understood that these gentlemen have accepted the service to which
they have been invited. In preparing instructions for their guidance, I have not been
able to furnish them your complaints against the Red Cloud agency administration,
except in a general way, as detailed to me by yourself at several interviews. But I
have informed them of the request of the Secretary that you will reduce these complaints to a written statement, to be accompanied with such proofs and suggestions, as
to reliable sources of evidence, as will aid in securing a thorough investigation. I
have also informed them of the appointment and purpose of this commission, and my
intention to renew the request heretofore made by the honorable Secretary that you
will now furnish the said written statement, making the charges as specific and furnishing evidence as much in detail as possible; or, if you are not prepared to do this,
that you will, in any way most agreeable to yourself, make known in a definite form
your impressions and views respecting Indian affairs, as resulting from your personal
observation while in the Indian country. I make this request of you in the belief that
you can have no other desire in this matter than that the interests and rights both of
the Indians and Government may be protected. And I desire to renew the assurance
heretofore given you that it is the sincere wish and purpose of the Department to prevent frauds as far as possible, and to omit no effort to discover them when perpetrated,
and in all respects to bring the Indian service to the higbest possible standard of
humanity and strict integrity.
To which my reply was as follows:
YALE COLLEGE, Nxw H~v~x,
Jttly 3, 1875.
DEAn Sru: I have received your letter of the 1st instant, informing me of the appointn~ent of Hon. A. H. Bullock, of Massachusetts; Hon. T. C. Fletcher, of Missouri; and
Hon. George N\T Lane, of New York, as a committee to investigate affairs at Red Cloud
agency.  I have as yet received no communication from the gentlemen named, but I
will at once proceed to prepare a detailed statement, embodying the evidence on this
sui~~ject now in my possession, a copy of which I will with pleasure lay before the
committee, so soon as they inform me that they have organized and are ready to act.
Very truly, yours,
0.C. MAl Sli.
lion. F. P. SMITH,
Coma~i~sioa~r of Indian Affairs.
The Department letter of instructions to the commission, although the
gentlemen named had not accepted their appointment, as intimated in the
commissioner's letter to me, was published also. This letter of instructions, as published1 contains several erroneous statements and misrepresentations, especially as to the nature and extent of my observations at
~ed Cloud agency, and virtually prejudges the case.  llow it corresponds with the facts, may be seen from the evidence given below.
The letter is as follows:
D~r~n~~m~v OF THE ThTEF.IOP, OFFic~ OF ThnIAN AFFAIRS,
Jflashingtoa, 1). C., Jaly 1, 1875.
GENTL~~~~: On the nomination of the chairman of the Board of Indian Cbmmissioners, at the request of the Secretary of the Interior, you have been appointed by
him a commission to investigate the affairs of the Red Cloud agency.
The occasion for such investigation has mainly originated in statements made by
Mr. 0. C. Marsh, professor in Sheffield Scientific School, Yale College, concerning matters which he observed while at the agency during November last. As yet these statements have no definite form known to the Office other than as they have appeared in
the public press, and as made verbally by Mr. Marsh to myself.
In the latter part of March last, Professor Marsh brought to me certain samples of
tobacco, and flour, and sugar, which he said he did in accordance with a promise made
to Red Cloud, in consideration of a promise by Red Cloud to procure an entrance for
him into the Black Hills country for scientific purposes. He stated that, in a private
interview with Red Cloud, that Indian chief complained very bitterly of his agent in
many respects, and earnestly desired a change, and that he had given him these as
samples of the supplies which he was receiving from Government. He also stated that 
6
the beef-~attle issued to the Indians were small in size, and otherwise of inferior character; and that there was much confusion in agency matters, especially in the issnin
of a large amount of goods in a single day. Professor Marsh expressed his belief that
there might have been an exchange of articles purchased for the Indians for others of
inferior quality while en route between Cheyenne and the agency. He also stated
that his views as to agency affairs were confirmed by conversations with other persons
around the agency.
Professor Marsh stated that be had not taken any measures to satisfy himself that
the samples given to him by Red Cloud were fair samples of the supplies which were
then being issued, and could not say from his own observation that they were fair
samples,; but that on one occasion, when a sack of flour had fallen from an Indian
woman 5 arms and broken open, he saw the color of the flour as it lay upon the ground,
and thought it not much different from the sample furnished by Red Cloud, but, not
being a judge of flour, he could not make the comparison with any degree of accuracy.
The samples referred to Professor Marsh did not leave with me, and it is presumed
that he has them still in his possession.
His other statements in regard to agency affairs are of a still more indefinite character.
In an interview subsequently held with the honorable Secretary of the Interior,
Professor Marsh was invited by him to reduce his statements of frauds or irregularities
in the Indian service to writing, in such form as would best aid in their investigatiou
To this request Professor Marsh has not yet responded, nor has he declined it. I have
this day notified him of your appointment, and again requested him to fi~rnish such
statements or suggestions as may aid in finding the facts as to the administration of
Red Cloud agency.
If, however, Professor Marsh should still decline to furnish such assistance, it is the
desire of the honorable Secretary that you proceed in the invesEigation, and avail
yourselves of all the means that can be found, after arriving upon the ground, or
before, to learn the state of affairs; and that you will, without fear or favor, investigate all matters pertaining to that agency so thoroughly as to satisfy yourselves
beyond a doubt as to facts, upon which you will make a clear report relative to its past
and present condition and management, with such recommendations as will enable the
Department to take proper action in the premises.
You will undoubtedly meet with persons of strong partisan feelings enlisted both
for and against the administration of the preseut agent; and as you proceed you will
become fully aware of the misrepresentations which such partisanship naturally produces, and the extreme difficulty of discovering the truth amid the conflicting statements and allegations.
"While guarding against giving undue weight to accnsations which originate in
malice and suspicion only, you will not hesitate to probe all questions to the bottom,
and bring to light any official neglect or fraudulent or unfair transactions of any kind
or degree, by whomsoever committed. A copy of Agent Saville's letter requesting such
investigations is herewith furnished for your information; also a full report of the
councils held with Red Cloud and a delegation of the chiefs and headmen of Red
Cloud agency at the Department of the Interior, May 2S and June 5.
"At Cheyenne you will find C. H. Bostwick, the storekeeper of the Government warehouse, also Mr. Long, the inspector of the flour and the supplies which have been shipped from Cheyenne to Red Cloud agency during the year. You are also requested
while in the Indian country to make such observations pertaining to Indian affairs
generally at Red Cloud agency as will be of assistance to the administration of the
Indian Bureau.
"Of this commission the Hon. A. H. Bullock, of Worcester, Mass., is the chairman,
from whom you will receive notice of the time of proceeding to Cheyenne. Your comTensation while actually engaged in this service will be at the rate of $8 per day, iu
addition to your necessary and actual traveling expenses. One of the inclosed requisitions for transportation will be honored by the ticket-agent of the Union Pacific
Railroad at Omaha, and the other on your return at Cheyenne. The weekly stage at
Laramie en route to Red Cloud, leaves Cheyenne on Monday early in the day.
"Your attention is called to the circular-letter of the honorable Second Comptroller
of February ~6, 1875, and to Department circular of July 1, 1874, for information as to
requirements in settling your accounts for expenses.
"Very respectfully, your obedient ser~ant,     "EDW. P. SMITH."
To the Hon. A. H. Bu~~ocx, ~Vorcester, Mass.; GLo. W. L~~E, New York City;
THoMAs C. F~~~cu~n, St. Louis, Mo.
* Messrs. Bullock and Lane having declined to serve on the commission, the Secretary of the Interior appointed Hon. C. J. Faulkner, of W. Va.; and Hon. B. W. Harris,
of Mass.; and named Hon. T. C. Fletcher as chairman. This commission organized in
New York, July 19, and started for the West July 22, 1875.  The President subsequently appointed three additional commissioners, viz: Hon. T. 0. Howe, of Wisconsin;
Hon. Wayne MacVeagh, of Pennsylvania; and Prof. G. W. Atherton, of New Jersey. 
7
Up to the present time, I have received no information that this cornmission has organized, l)Ut I stand ready to aid it in every way in my
power.  In the mean time, the communication I now transmit to you contains the information asked for by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
The results of my investigation into the affairs of Red Cloud Indian
agency are embodied in the following statements, arranged for convenience under distinct heads:
1.-The L?(~i((fl agent at Red CThnd agency.
In the first conversation I had with Red Cloud, when Gen. L. P. Bradley and Col. T. II. Stantoii were present, lie complained bitterly of his
agent, J. 1. Saville, who, for the past two years, has had charge of his
agency.  Red Cloud's specific charges were, that his agent was incompetent, weak, and vacillating, having no influence over the Indians;
and especially that be was in league with the contractors to defraud the
Indians of the food and clothing sent them by the Government.  I
regret to say that all I saw myself at the agency, and all I learned from
trustworthy observers and official records, has convinced me that these
charges were well founded.  As soon as I met the agent himself, and
observed his method of dealing with Indians, it was at once evident to
me that he was entirely unfit for the responsible position he occupied.
This fact is illustrated by an occurrence, now well known, which took
place a few days before my arrival, when the agent, by a single act of
folly, aroused the bitter hostility of the Indians in his charge, and came
near sacrificing the entire white population of the agency.  This was
avoided only by the rare coolness and bravery of Lieut. E. Crawford,
Third Cavalry, who came with his company to the rescue, at the critical moment.  ~Yithout military protection, the agent could not have
remained in charge of the~Indians a single day, as their threats against
him for indignities and alleged frauds continually practiced upon them
were open and violent.  Of the more debasing influences which this
agency was openly exercising upon the Indians I will not now speak,
aJthough the evidence on this point was obtained by direct observation.
That a chief of such note and ability as Red Cloud should be subjected
to the caprices of such an agent, is in itself a gross indignity, and illcalculated to inspire him or his people with respect for the advantages
of civilization.
There appeared to be a total want of system in the management of
agency affairs.  The issues of annuity goods, of beef, and other supplies,
all were made in a loose and unbusiness-like way, in which a just distribution among the Indians was impossible.  Agent Saville was placed
in his position to guard the iuterests of the Indians and of the Government, and it appears that he betrayed both alike.  lle defrauded the
Indians by withholding from them provisions which he charged against
the Government as issued to them.  For example: In his abstract of
provision.issues for November, 1874, which he rendered to the Interior
Department, and which is now there on file, he states that ~ovember 8,
1874, he issued to 12,351 Indians fresh beef amounting to 271,248 pounds,
or over 260 head of cattle, according to the average weight which he
allowed the contractor on the last herd received.  The truth is that he
issued no beef whatever to the Indians on that day nor for several days
afterward, as I ascertained from the agent himself and others at the
agency.  I <`irrived at the agency November 9, and was informed by the
agent that he liad been f\~r some time withholding rations from the Indians niitil they would consent to be coui~ted; aiid this fac~ he coin mu 
nicated officially to the Department, and subsequently repeated it`to
Bishop W. II. llare in my presence in Washington. The first issue
after the counting was finished was November 14, and I was then present, and know that for several days previously the Indians had been
suffe~ng from want of the very food he claimed in his official report to
have issued. In the same manner his official reports represent other
issues that never took place. How he at the same time was defrauding
the Government, in receipting for beef which he did not receive, is fully
shown in section IV of this statement.
The incompetence and true character of Agent Saville were well
known to the Interior Department before my visit, as is shown by an
official report made by United States Indian Inspector J. D. Bevier,
October 21, 1874. In this report the inspector exposed a fraudulent
contract made privately by Agent Saville with his father-in-law, A. R.
Appleton, by which the Government would have been largely a loser.
Inspector Bevier states, moreover, that, while investigating the contract,
Agent Saville made false representations to him, and Mr. Appleton endeavored to bribe him to silence. Other special commissioners of the
Interior Department had likewise reported unfavorably of this agent
and affairs at the agency. And yet this man has for the past two years,
with the full approval of the Department, had charge of the most important agency in the West, where nearly half a million of dollars
annually passes through his hands.
In all his official relations Agent Saville has proved himself a weak
man, and he should never have been placed in so responsible a position.
If honest when appointed, as some good men believe, he fell an easy
victim to the wiles of beef and freight contractors of the Indian ring,
as many stronger men, agents and high officials, have done before him.
11.-Number of Indians at agency overest~mated.
There is good reason to believe that the number of Indians supplied
with provisions at Red Cloud agency has been largely overestimated,
resulting in extensive losses to the Government. According to the
provfsion-returns of Agent Saville for the fourth quarter of 1874, which
lie rendered to the Interior Department, there were 15,117 Indians who
received rations at the agency October 1, 1874. The same official document states that on November 8 (the day before my arrival) there were
12,351 Indians fed at the agency. I was informed by the agent and
other persons immediately connected with the agency that two or three
thousand of these Indians belonged to northern tribes and were encamped within a short distance of th& agency, on the north side of
White River. Agent Saville subsequently confirmed this statement in
an interview with Rev. S. D. Hinman and myself in Washington, May
31, 1875, and stated also that some of these northern Indians received
annuities at the annual issue, November 12, 1874.  A few days after
the issue of annuity goods, when about to start with my expedition
across White River to the northward, I was informed by the agent and
others that the northern Indians were still in camp there, but on crossing the river with my party, I found less than forty lodges, by actuat'
count, and ascertained that all, or nearly all, of these were Ogallalas
belonging to Red Cloud's band. During the next ten days, moreover,
I repeatedly crossed the great northern trails leading to the Black llills,
and ascertained beyond a doubt that no considerable body of Indians
had recently passed over then~.  For these reasons, and others which
I deem equally condusive, I believe the thousauds of northern Indians
officially reported at this agency to be a myth. 
9
The number of Indians actually at Red Cloud agency, when I was
there in November last, could not have been more than 1,200 lodges, or
8,400 individuals. Judging from all the information I could obtain, I
doubt if this number has been exceeded within the last two years.
Some observers, best qualified to judge, placed the number lower, and
among these was Jules Ecoffey, of Fort Laramie, whom I have known
for several years. lle was with me at the agency, acted as my interpreter in one council, and is personally acquainted with nearly all the
Indians there. The statement of the agent, that on October 1 there
were at the agency over 15,000 Indians, no disinterested person familiar
with the facts believes for a moment, especially as at that time the'
~wilder Indians had not commenced to return to the agency for the
winter.
111.-Issue of an~~uity-goods.
I was present at the Red Cloud agency at the annual issue of annuitygoods, November 12, 1874, and personally observed nearly all that were
delivered.  I saw the entire issue of blankets, and carefully examined
the quality of those delivered. The number of bales of blankets I did
not count as they were issued, but, soon after all were given out,
my attention was called to the number of these by the cMef Red Dog,
who stood near me in the warehouse during the issue.  lle strongly
asserted that the issue was fraudulent, and that the number of blankets
issued was much less than the Indians were entitled to; and that the
number issued to him for his own band was not more than half what be
should have had. This earnest protest on the part of the chief, who is
next in rank to Red Cloud, called my attention particularly to the
amount issued; and on recalling the exact circumstances of the delivery,
which I had witiiessed a few minutes before, I felt reasonably certain
that not more than twenty bales were issued, and that the number could
not possibly have exceeded twenty-five bales. One of the persons whom
I then saw assisting the agent in issuing the blankets was Louis Richard, (or, as the name is usually pronounced and written at the agency,
Louis Reshaw,) whom I knew personally, and subsequently employed
as interpreter, by the advice of Gen. L. P. Bradley, who had previously
employed him as guide, and spoke in high terms of his faithfulness and
reliability. I subsequently met Louis Richard in ~ra5hjngton, with I.
S. Collins, esq., of Fort Laramie, now secretary of the special Sioux
commission, who had brought him on from the Red Cloud agency as a
trustworthy interpreter, and who spoke highly of his truthfulness. On
conversing with Mr. Richard about the affairs of Red Cloud agency,
with which we were both conversant, I learned incidentally that he had
carefully counted all the bales of blankets that were issued on November 12, 1874, when he assisted in the distribution which I witnessed.
lle assured me that the number of bales of blankets then issued was
eighteen, each bale containing fifty pairs of blankets, and he gave me
the following affidavit:
~YA5llINGTON, D. C., Juce 4, 1575.
I hereby certify that at the issi~e of anaulties at Red Cloud agency, ill November,
1574, 1 assisted the agent, Dr. J. J. Saville, in the issue, and know fro'n actual conut
that there were only eighteen bales of blankets iss~~ed, each bale containing fifty pairs.
I was present at the whole issue, and saw all the annuity-goods delivered.  No bales
~vere l~ft in the warehouse after the reg~~iar issu~
The braud U. S. I. D. 01) these l~laiikets iij~ired the ClotlI 51) that, after a short wear,
holes replaccd the letters.
LOUIS RESlIAW.
Witnesses:
J.McK~x~~y,
F.W. lIAGUF. 
10
Dis~~icv op COLUMBIA, ss.:
I, John ~IcKenney, a notary public in and for the District aforesaid, certify that
Louis Reshaw, whose signature is affixed to the within affidavit, came before me and
made oath that the matters stated in said paper are true to the best of his knowledge
and belief.
Witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and notarial seal this 5th day of
June, id' 75.
f. McKENNEY,
Notary Public.
That no bales of blankets remained at the agency after the issue of
November 12, 1874, is shown by Mr. Richard's affidavit, above quoted,
and by Agent Saville's property-returns, now on file in the Interior
Department.  This I also know from personal observation, as I was
several times in the warehouse after the issue, and saw that none were
there.
On subsequently examining the property-returns of Agent Saville for
the 4th quarter, 1874, at Red Cload agency, which he had rendered to
the Indian Bureau, and were on file in the Interior Department, I
was surprised to find that he had certified to the issue, on November
12, 1874, of no less than thirty-five bales of blankets, and had furnished
a paper, purporting to be a receipt of the Indian chiefs for that number.
In a recent communication from the Indian Bureau, I learn that the true
number of bales shipped to Red Cloud agency in 1874 was thirty-seven,
or 1,850 pairs.  lleuce it would appear that the Indians at this agency
received less than one-half the number of blankets for which the Government paid.
The blankets actually issued were bitterly complained of by the
Inflians, for two reasons-the first being their small sizes, which were
not adapted to men as large as the Sioux braves, and were only fitted
for women and children.  The second and most serious objection, however, was the fact, that the brand U. S. I. D. on each blanket had been
put on with some material which rotted or burned the cloth, and after a
short wear this brand was replaced by holes, as stated above in the
affidavit of Mr. Richard.  This fact is now well known to every one at
the agency.  These blankets were furnished by I. & J. Dobson, of
Philadelphia.
The quantity and quality of the other annuity-goods issued during
my visit I will not now discuss, but I must enter an earnest protest
against the manner iu which the whole issue was made.  The entire
issue for the year was made in a few hours of a single November day,
in the midst of a snow-storm.  The Indians had been suffering for want
of th~ir blankets and other clothing during the cold weather which preceded the issue, and there is no good r~ason why the goods should not
have been at the agency, and delivered, at least a month earlier.
The issue itself was made in the most careless and irresponsible
manner.  The goods were delivered to the chiefs of bands in bulk, in
a hasty manner, without any system of checks to ascertain the actual
amounts given or required.  The only data by which the issue was
regulated was a pencil-memorandum in the hands of the agent, who
called off the quantity to be delivered to each chief or headman. llence
there was no guarantee that the Indians received even half of the
goods intended for them.  The Indians watched the issue with suspicion, and scveral of the chiefs asserted that it w~s fraudnlc'it.
IV.-Fra~ds ~)t beef-cattle.
The frauds perpetrated in supplying tl'e Red Clou~l age!~cy with beefcattle have been so gigJl)tic, a'id so long a~id systematically continued, 
II
that it is well worth while to show how they are acco~nplisbed, and who
is responsible for the outrage.
The contract for furnishing cattle to this and other Sioux agencies for
the last fiscal year was given to J. K. Foreman, of Omaha, and was
signed by Indian Commissioner Smith, July 14, 1874.  The cattle
delivered were required to average 850 pounds for the first six months,
and 1,000 pounds f~r the last six months, and the price was $2.30&o
per 100 pounds, gross weight, on the hoof.  It was expressly stipulated
that "All the beef offered for acceptance under this contract shall be
subject to a thorough inspection, and if, on such inspection, any of it
fails to conform to the requirements of this contract, the same shall be
rejected by the parties making tbe inspectioti." The inspectors were
authorized, in such a case, to require the contractor to replace the
rejected cattle within five days by proper beef.  If not, the right was
reserved to purchase the cattle required at the expense of the contractor.  A bond of $150,000, with two good and sufficient sureties,
was required to be given, to insure the faithful fulfillnient of the contract.
There is abundant evidence that this contract was not made in good
faith.  The contract was not filled by the party to whom it was given,
but (like too many Indian contracts) was transferred for "a valuable
consideration," a few days after it was signed, to W. A. Paxton, of
Omaha.  As this assignment could not take place, by the terms of the
contract, "without the written consent of the Secretary of' the Interior,"
the full1responsibility of this transfer rests with him.  This contract was
nominaily in force at the ttme of my visit to Red Cloud agency.  The
real beef-contractor, however, whom I found supplying this agency, was
the well-known Bosler, notorious for frauds in previous contracts, and
for this reason excluded by the published regulations from any participation in future contracts.  This second virtual transfer of the contract
to him was well known to every one at the agency, and in that region,
and must have been equally well l~nown to the Interior Department.
On my arrival at the agency, November 9, 1874, I ascertained that
there had been no beef-issue for some time, and only seven head of cattle
were then remaining over from previous issues.  These seven cattle had
all been receipted for to the contractor, received by the agent, and were
in his charge.  All, or nearly all, of them were subsequently issued to
the Indians.  These facts, which are important, I learned at the agency,
and they were fully admitted by Agent Saville to Rev. S. D. llinman,
the official interpreter of the Interior Department, and myself, in Washington, ~Iay 29.  These were the cattle examined, at Red Cloud's
request, by General Bradley and his officers, and about which so much
has been said  The result of that examination is given in the following
certificate, the original of which is in my possession:
N\Te, the undersigned, officers of the United States Army, were present at an interview held at Red Clond agency, on the 11th day of November, 1874, betweea Professor
0. C. Marsh and Red Cloud and Red Dog, and now bear individual testimony as to the
wretched quality of the rations, and to the undersize and puny condition of seven head
of beef-cattle, (the remainder of a herd,) which were shown us by Red Cloud as having
been issued to his people by the agent there stationed.
Each of us, unknown to the other, marked at that time his estimate of the gross
weight of these cattle, and remember the averagethereofto be 358 pounds; Red Cloud,
two other Indians, and one of the herders, asserting that these cattle were not smaller
than tl~ose turned over for slaughter at any ordinary issue-day.
L. P. BRADLEY,
Licut. Col. ~~?~th I~anThy, Con~rnanding District Black Hills.
JOHN MIX,
Captain Second Caral~-y.
LEONARD HAY,
First Lient., Adjitmet ~~~~~t~ Infantry, A. A. A. U., District Black Hills.
FORT LARA~IIR, ~r T., May 19,1875. 
1'2
This certificate, which was published while the Sioux delegation was
in ~~asbington, fully confirmed my own statement in regard to the same
cattle, and is entitled to great weight, as these officers have had large
experience in western affairs, and are perfectly familiar with matters
at the Sionx agencies in the Black llills district. The Indian Bureau
immediately endeavored to destroy the effect of this testimony, and the
method adopted so well illustrates the manner in which that Office
receives information reflecting on the management of its affairs, that it
is worthy of record here; especially as the same method had been employed to weaken the force of the facts I had previously laid before it
about affairs at the same agency.
Commissioner Smith dictated to the agent of the Associated Press,
for publication, the following counter-statement, which was widely pub.
lished the next day, May 29:
Commissioner Smith, of the Indian Bureau, says, in regard to the letter of General
Bradley, published yesterday, that the cattle spoken of belonged to the contractor;
that they were sick, some of them with broken limbs, and that they were not issued to
the Indians, and that there was no intention of issuing them, simply because they were
in such a poor and sick condition. He asserts that Red Dog's statement was incorrect,
and that Red Cloud informed him this morning that Red Dog lied when he told the
story to General Bradley and Professor Marsh.  The Commissioner also states that General Bradley could have satisfied himself of this fact by a slight in~uiry of the herdman
or contractor, if he had desired to do so.
As this reply contained some statements which I knew to be erroneous,
I at once endeavored to ascertain the exact tr~th about these cattle. In
company with Rev. S. D. flinman, the official interpreter of the Interior
Department, I called upon Agent Saville, May 29, at his hotel, and asked
him about the cattle examined by General Bradley and the other officers.
Agent Saville said that "these cattle did not belong to the contractor,
but to the Government; that he had accepted them from the contractor
and given receipts for all of them, and they were in his charge; that
subsequently all except two of them were issued by him to the Indians;
that these cattle were not sick, and none of them had broken legs; and
that they were the only cattle at the agency when General Bradley was
there.~ I also called on Red Cloud himself, and he positively denied
that he had held any conversation whatever with Commissioner Smith
about these cattle that morning, as stated; and I subsequently learned
by inquiry of all of the Sioux interpreters then in the city, through
whom alone such a conversation could be held, that Red Cloud had no
such conversation with Commissioner Smith. Red Cloud also told me
that he "mnst have been misunderstood in the council of Friday, (May
28.)  lle did not mean to say that these cattle had been rejected by the
agent, but simply that at the time General Bradley saw them they had
not been issued to the Indians, but had been left over from a former
issue." This testimony fairly disposes of the explanation attempted on
this point by Commissioner Smith.
On the morning of November 14, while I was at the Red Cloud agency,
Mr. Bosler, one of the contractors, brought to the agency a herd of 5everal hundred head of Texas cattle, the first that had been received for
some weeks previous. This lot was accepted by the agent and receipted
for, but he only weighed a portion of the herd. These cattle I saw and
carefully examined. Major A. S. Burt, of the Ninth Infantry, who commanded the escort to my expedition, was with me at the time, and also
examined them with care. They were the poorest lot of Texas cattle I
have ever seen during all my experience in the West, where I have seen
many hundreds of herds, at vanons points between this agency and
Southern Kansas, and have myself purchased many animals for the use 
13
of my expeditions. All the cattle in this herd were wretchedly ~aunt
and thin, and the majority of them were small, many being yeadings
A large number were of the kind known among cattle-men as "scalawags,', and not a few were weak and decrepit. I noticed the ~haracter
of these cattle particularly, because the beef issued at this agency had
been the subject of several conversations between Red Cloud, General
Bradley, and myself, and I was desirous of knowing with certainty
whether the statements of the chief on this point were true. In the
afternoon of the same day that the cattle were received, November 14,
I witnessed, in company with i~Iajor A. S. Burt, the issue of beef, when
a large portion of these cattle was delivered to the Indians. This delivery was made from the agency corral, and the cattle were turned out, a
small number at a time, to the chiefs or headmen, who were waiting
with their mounted young warriors to pursue and kill them.  I watched
this issue with much interest from first to last, and saw every one of the
cattle that were turned over to the Indians, as well as the remainder of
-the herd, retained for a subsequent issue. I am confident that the average weight of this herd was not more than 750 pounds, and this I regard
as a liberal estimate.
~Iajor Burt was by my side during the issue, and saw all of these
cattle. ilis testimony is especially important, as he has long been stationed in the N\~st, and is perfectly familiar with the subject of which
he speaks.  ilis opinion of the cattle we examined can be learned from
the following extract from a certificate relating to affairs at Red Cloud
agency:
FORT L~a~~i~, ~VY0Mi~G TER., June 12, 1875.
I certif~ that I was present last fal], at Red Cloud agency, when Professor 0. C.
~larsh was there; that we together went to the corral to see an issue of cattle to the
Indians~ that the cattle we saw at that time were Texas cattle in miserable condition,
some ot them so weak the Indians conid not goad them out of a walk. The cattle
were, as a rule, sniall in size.
*       *       *       *       *        *        *
A.S. BURT,
Caj~taie 2\~nth h~feeIry.
In this region the cattle should be in good condition at this season of
the year, if ever, yet the cattle of this herd were so wretchedly poor
th~t even the contractor, ~Ir. Bosler, deemed it necessary to apologize
for them.  In explanation of their condition, he informed me that he
had been obliged to overdrive them, so as to reach the agency in time
for the issue.  I subsequently learned that this was a standiiig excuse,
when persons not directly interested~in Indian affairs witnessed a cattledelivery.
Essentially the same excuse for the inferior character of these cattle was
made by Agent Saville in N\Tashington, June 1, 1875, when questioned
by Bishop ~Y. II. ilare, in my presence, in regard to this particfll'~r issue.
Agent Saville then stated "that the poor condition of these cattle was
owing to hard driviug some forty-eight hours, with little grass or sleep,
to hurry them through, as the Indians had had no beef for some time,
he having kept back rations to induce them to be counted. These cattle
arrived in the morning, and he weighed most of them the same forenoon.  Some few that were wild he did not weigh, but estimated.  The
issue was made on the same afternoon of the receipt.  Among the cattle
then issued were forty or more small and` scalawag~ cattle.  Agent
Saville was confident that these cattle, thin as they were, would weigh 850
pounds on an average." On my questioning this he insisted that"those
he weighed came up to that average, and that those estimated were 
14
fully as large.  lle himself weighed all of the herd that were weighed
on the morning they arrived." Memoranda of these statements of Agent
Saville were taken down at the time by both Bishop llare and myself,
and at a subsequent conference were found to agree.
As I was confident that the weight of this herd of cattle did not exceed 750 pounds average, this positive statement of Agent Saville to
Bishop llare, that the actual weight of the cattle reached an average
of 850 pounds each, as weighed by him, increased my suspicion that the
whole transaction was frandulent. I was not prepared, however, for
the evidence which I found in the Second Auditor's office of the Treasury Department, where the receipts are filed as vouchers for the payment to the contractor. I there ascertained that Agent Saville had
given a receipt for this same herd of 701 head of diminntive cattle, in
which he certified that their actual weight, as weighed by him, was
731,485 pounds, which woltid niake the average exceed 1,043 1)ounds rer
head. More than this, I found that, according to Agent Saville's receipts,
all the cattle received during the same quarter of 1874 had reached
nearly the same average, or more than 1,040 pounds each.  As this is a
matter of great importance, I here give the official statement, as furnished by the Treasury Department:
Schedule of beef-cattle delive,-ed at the Red Clo~td i?~dian agency during the fourth quarter of
1874, as appears by accounts of IV. A. Paxton on file in this office.
Date.                 Head.    Weight,  Furnished by.
pounds.
October 1, 1874                         663  691, 501 V. A. Paxton.
October 20,1874                         758  783, 672 V. A~ Paxton.
November 14,1874                        701  731, 485 V. A. Paxton.
December 3, 1874                        597  621, 447 V. A. Paxton.
Total. 2,719 2,828,113
The foregoing is a correct statement, as appears by the records of this office.
E.B. FRENCH, Auditor.
SEco~n Aunlion's Orric~, June 7, 1875.
In other words, this large herd of cattle, which no one could fairly
estimate at a greater average weight per head than 750 pounds, and
which both the agent and contractor apologized for as being much inferior to their regular issues, and which Agent Saville only claimed to have
weighed 850 pounds, were charged to the Government by that official
as weighing more than 1,043 pounds each, and the contractor actually
received pay at that rate.
Of the cattle received during this qnarter, other than the abov
have no personal knowledge, but, from all I could learn from those who
had seen them, they were no better than the herd I examined, which
P~ed Cloud in Washington pronounced a good one, and superior to most
of those received. I think it would be safe to say that the cattle
received for that whole quarter did not exceed 800 pounds average, and
yet Agent Saville receipted for them to the contractor at over 1,040
pounds.
These frauds in weights, which are consummated by direct collusion
between the agent and contractor, and through which both the Indians
and the Government are so greatly defrauded, form only part of the
general system of theft. I have reason to believe that equal rascality
is practiced in regard to the number of cattle. For example: there is
conclusive evidence that the only cattle at the agency November 11,
1874, were the seven head of puny animals examined by General 
15
Bradley; yet, according to the provision returns of Agent Saville for
the 4th quarter of 1874, now on file in the Interior Department, he
should have had 184,905 pounds, or, according to his official receipts,
179 head.  It has been shown above, however, that the beef-issue which
he claimed to have made November 8 did not take place.  llence,
he should have had on November 11, at least 446,427 pounds of beef, or
about 430 head of cattle, when he actually had only seven!
The various beef transactions took place under the contract assigned
to W. A. Paxton, well known to be merely the agent of Bosler, who
personally filled the contract.  Although this contract had been violated
in all its important features, and shameful frauds practiced in its fulfillment, Commissioner Smith did not call on the bondsmen of the contractor for satisfaction, as the law required him to do, but, on March
17, 1875, privately made a new contract with the same W. A. Paxton
(or in reality with Bosler) to supply beef for the same Red Cloud
agency at a much higher price ($3.00 per 100 pounds) than this contractor had on g in ally bound himself to do.  This contract was illegal,
as it was given by the Commissioner without advertising for proposals.
The bond required in this contract was $40,000.  llow the contract was
carried out will be seen from the testimony of Lieut. W. L. Carpenter
and others given below.
Lieutenant Carpenter was with me on my expedition in November,
and was subsequently stationed at Red Cloud agency, where he had
the best opportunity to observe the whole management of aff~airs.  Mr.
Louis Reshaw (Richard) was also at the agency, and intimately
acquainted with what transpired there.  Both were present at cattleissues in May last, and the results of their observation are embodied
in their certificates here given:
I certify that on or about the 13th day of May, 1875, I witnessed an issue of beefcattle to the Indians at the Red Cloud agency, Nebraska.  That the cattle then issued
were wretchedly poor, and about one half of them ridiculously small.  Out of about
200 head which I saw killed at that time, there were but three oxen which would be
accepted by an Army commissary for issue to troops. There were many yearlings
in the herd, which wonld not net two hundred (200) ibs. of beef; and to the best of
my knowledge and belief, the entire herd would not average seven hundred and fifty
(750) Ibs. gross weight.
W. L. CARPENTER,
1st Lieutenant 9th hfantry.
Camp near Trinidad, Colorado, June 22, 1875.
~~AS1IINGT0~, June 5, 1875.
I hereby certify that I was at Red Cloud agency, at the first beef-issue in May, 1875,
and that of the cattle then issued to the Indians more than one-third were yearlings.
I have full knowledge of this fact as I bought of the ludians over sixty hides of the
cattle is~ued at that time. The remainder of the cattle left after this issue were all
small, aiid not larger than those issued.
In the above issue no allowance was made to the Indians for the small cattle
delivered, all counting alike.
LOUIS RE8llAW.
It will be remembered that the comtractor received a much higher
price for these cattle than for those previously delivered, and that the
contract called for "good merchantable beef-cattle, averaging 850
pounds," and that, "if any cattle offered for acceptance should fail to
conform to the requirements of this contract, the same shall be rejected
by the agent." The above certificates show the kind of cattle actually
delivered under this contract.  The kind of cattle paid for by the
Government is indicated by the following extract from the records of
the office of the Second Auditor of the Treasury, which is taken from 
16
the official receipts given by the agent to the contractor on which the
latter receives pay. It will be observed that the general average for
the whole lot is over 1,026 pounds.
Memoranda of beef-cattle delivered at the Red Cloud Indian agency, cornm~icing January 1,
1875,  as appears by accounts on file in this Office.
Number
Date.                By whom furnished.  of head. Gross weight.
January 1, 1875              W. A. Paxton              641  668, 578
February 1, 1875             W. A. Paxton              437   451,203
February 17, 1875            W. A. Paxton              467  486, 114
March 1, 1875                V. A. Paxton               96   99, 303
March 25, 1875               V. A. Paxton              539  555, 210
April 1, 1875                V. A. Paxton              583  589, 061
April 21, 1875               V.A. Paxton               584   585,115
Total                                            3, 347    3, 434, 584
5uco~n AimiTon's OFFICE, July 8, 1875.
Another fruitful source of fraud in cattle at the Red Cloud agency is the
system of stampeding, which appears to have been practiced there, at
least, since the present agent took charge. A stampede of Texas cattle
may result from various causes, and the natural result of a stampede of
the agency herd would be their immediate return to the contractor's herd
from which they were driven. While at the agency in November, 1874,
I heard that a stampede of this kind had taken place a few months
before. The particulars of this stampede I afterward learned from
various persons-among them Louis Reshaw, who was familiar with the
circnmstances,~and testifies to the facts in the following certificate:
WA8HINGToN, D. C., June 5,1875.
I hereby certify that in the summer of 1874 the herd of cattle at the Red Cloud
agency, which had been received by the agent from the contractor, stampeded, and
most of them, over a hundred in number, went back to the contractor's herd, on the
Platte.  These same cattle were afterward driven to the agency, and were receipted for
a secoud time by the agent.  The contractor's herder offered to sell me those cattle at
StO per head before he drove them back to the agency.
LOUIS RESHAW.
From such stampedes, and tbe fraudulent results following, both the
Indians and the Government have suffered great losses.
~~.-~ork iss~ed at the agenoy.
Maj. A. S. Burt and myself were at the issue of provisions November
15, 1874, and, among other things, saw and examined the pork that was
delivered. The method employed in distributing this article to the Indians was characteristic of the management of affafrs at this agency.
The barrels of pork were rolled out of the warehouse by one of the
agency employcs, the heads of the barrels knocked in with an ax, and
the contents turned upon the ground. The pieces of pork were then
given to the Indians, wiio wer~ waiting around, without being weighed
or any other means adopted to insure a just distribution.  This pork I
examined, and found it old and strong.  ~ome of it, at least, was rusty
and unfit for human food.  On this point Major Burt, in a certificate
which he has recently sent me, states as follows: "I observed the pork
given to the Indians; it was lean, rusty stuff, unfit for anybody's ~~~~`~
A few days after this date, the receipts for the next two lots of cattle received were sent to the
Second Auditor's Office.  The official account is as follows:  May 14th 1875 608 head, weighing 596,021
pouuds; May 29th, l~75, 371 head, weighing 361,927 pounds." The ave' ragC for the whole number cxc~eds 978 pounds. Part of these cattle were those examined by Lieutenant Carpentcr. 
17
The Indiaus received this pork ration with evident disgnst.  i~Iost of
thcii~ merely cut off the outer thin layer of fat, and threw the rest away
on the spot.  Iii one of tiie recent councils iii ~Vasliington, I~ed Cloud
eariiestly coinplaiued of the pork issued to hiij~ ind his people, and said
tlt(~t he thought some of the children had died from eatiiig it.  After
ttiis particul~r issue, the Judians so strongly objected to the (]uality of
this l)ork that the fact was reported by the agent to the Department in
~Vtsliingtoii.  The contract nnder which this wretched pork was furi~islied to the Indians was given to J. W. L. Slavens, of I~ansas Citywell-kiiowii is a favorite cofitractor of the Interior I)epartmeiit-and
was signed by Coiiimissioner Smith July 11, 1874.  It contained the
iisual I)hrases "that the article furnished shonl(l i~e subjected to a
thorough iiJsJ)ectioii aiid careful comparison with the samples thereof;'
aiid tlie usual boi)d was re~uired.  The price paid " ls $21 per barrel.
VI.-~Th~~r iss~~ec1 at fl~c agency.
~I%~ attention was called to the flour rations at this age!)cy by Red
Cloud hiiiiself,`Lud this was one of the samples he gave me to take to
~Vashiii gton.  A few days afterward, I saw the issue of provisions at
the agency, and my attention was again attracted to the subject by seeing a sack of flour, which all Indian woman had just received and was
c~rryiug away, burst open, and part of its contents fall on the ground.
This flour was dark in color, and adhesive to the touch, although it had
iiot l~een wet, and inferior in quality.  The flour was in a single sack,
without any brand whatever.  I afterward saw in the warehouse, appa.
rently put up in the same way, and entirely without brands, a considerable number of sacks, although the contract especially stipulated that
the flour was to be "fresh ground, of XX quality, to be made wholly
fiom good, sound wheat, and to be delivered in good, strong double sacks,
each sack to be branded`Indian Department Flour."'  On none of the
flour thit I saw in the warehouse did I observe any insl)ector's brands,
although some of the sacks may have had such marks without my
iloticing them.
I afterward saw flour in three different Indian lodges, and all appeared
to be of tlie saii)e quality as that I saw issued at the agency, and essentially tlie same as the simple Red Cloud had given me, although I made
no direct comp~rison between the two.  As the fairness of the latter, as
a sample of the flour issued at the agency, was subsequently questioned
by Commissioner Smith and others responsible for Iiidian management,
I l~ave t~keil (~onsiderable pains to ascertain the quality of the flour furiiisljeil to tiie Red Cloud agency under the contract which was in force
(luriiig tlie l(j5t half of 1874, when my visit was made, and during the
fir~t lilIf ()f flie present year.  This contract was given to J. II. ~Iarfin,
(f I)eiiver, (`~IId was signed by Commissioner Smith, July11, 1874.  The
1loi~r WI ti) be delivered in Cheyenne at the rate of $2.50 per hundred
l)()uii(l~, (`1 bf)i1(l of $10,000 beiiig given to insure a faithful performance
Of tli( (~()Iiti;i(~t.  I leirn from good authority that this contract could
iiot l)( lioliestly tilled, according to tlie accepted samlAc, at tlie price paid.
Tlie ~(?iitiict re(iuired "that the flour offered for accel)tance under this
0iiti;i~t shall lie subjected to a thorough iiispectioii, and careful coinilalisoil \` itt) tlie sample tiiereof which has beeii adopted; and if, on
such ~o1i1l)irison aiid iiispection, any of the flour f()~l5 to conform to or
(~uil ~ai~[ saiut)le, the sau)e shall be rejected by the parties making the
iIisliecti()ii.~'  I liave recently received a portion of the origiiial sample
~f tiie flour 01) which the contract was bised for tlie last fiscil year,
21F 
18
1S74-'75.  This is a totally different article in appearance from the flour
I saw issued to the Indians at the agency, and iii use in the lodges, and
no one could mistake the one for the other.  This sample of flour is the
only sample, of all the supplies purchased last year, that the Department retained, by which to compare the supplies actually delivered to
the Indians, and thus prevent fraud. The reason wl~y this natural precaution against frauds has not been taken remains for the Department
of the Interior to explaiii.
Some of the first flour delivered under this contract, a lot of 2, OCO
saeks, or 200,000 pounds, reached Cheyenne in August, 1874.  This lot
of flour, more than one-tl~ird of the whole year's supply for Eed Cloud
ageney, was not inspected, as required.  I am intormed that Dr. Irwin,
agent for the Shoshone Indians, who was then in Cheyenne, detected the
bad quality of that flour, and te]egraphed the Department that the transaction was a fraud. Agent Saville was at Cheyenne at this time, and he
has since informed Bishop Hare and myself th(~t he was ordered by Commissioner Smith to send the flour on to. the agency; a sample of it, merely,
to be retained by a citizen of Cheyenne, a leading member there of
the Indian ring, and who, as I am credibly intormed, has since been
under two indictments for attempting to bribe United States officials.
This action on the part of Commissioner Siiiith would see in to indicate
his own affinity with the Indian ring.
Early in September, 1874, ~Iaj. A. Ii. Long, of the United States
Commissary Department, was appointed iii spector at Cheyenne.  In a
recent communication, dated June 19, 1875, he states, "that when he
began his duties there remained of the above lot of flour twenty-seveil
sacks, which he immediately rejected, but it was afterward shipped to
~ed Cloud agency by the store-keeper-as the latter said, by mistake."
~Iajor Long states, also, "that he rejected a great deal of flonr at first;
then the grade became better; and that he rejected some flour that
Barclay White, superintendent of Indian affairs, had inspected and
passed at Omaha."
In Agent Saville's interview with Bishop Hare, in Washington, June
1, at which I was present, the agent stated "that subsequent to the
receipt of the above lot of flour, some two hundred sacks of dark flour,
inspected, at Omaha, by Barclay White, came to the I~ed Cloud agency
without being inspected at Cheyeniie.  This was very poor flour, and
was issued about the time of my visit, and lie thought`the flour I saw
there was part of this lot."
This testimony from observers whose official duty it was to examine
the character of the flour for I~ed Cloud agency, eftbctually disposes of
the statement which the Indian Commissioner gave to the Associated
Press in contradiction of my first presentation of the case at Washington. The explanation of the Commissioner, which was published ~Iay
3' was as follows:
It is stated at the Indian Bureau, with reference to the complaints concerning supplies furnished to the Iiidians at the i?ed Cloud agei)cy, that all the flour sent there
was inspected, at Cheyenne, by Major Long, comn~ issary of subsistence of the United
States Armv, and passed by hini as eqnal to the accepted sample.  It is, therefore,
claimed that the samples of inferior flour bronght here by Prof~ssor Marsh, at the
request of Red Cloud, were of some old issue, or, like the specimens of sngar and'
tobacco, had been damaged by exposure to the weather while in the Indians' pussession.
Essentially the same statement was previously made to me by Commissioner Smith, and this discouraged me from giving him ftir(hei
-information about mismanagement in Indian affairs. 
I~.)
~~II.-S~j~ar a~td coffec.
The supplies of sug~r and coffee at this agency I know comparatively
little about.  ~ed Cloud gave me a sample of each, which he said were
such as he was then llsing, and Red Dog stated essentially the same
thing.  I saw both of these articles issued to the Indians November 15,
1874, but only noticed the sugar particularly.  It was dark in color,
moist, and of low grade.  I (lid not compare this directly with the
simple R~d Cloud had given me, but I have no doubt the two were
froin the same lot, and virtually of the same quality.  The coffee I did
not see in bulk, but drank some of it as prepired at a feast iii one of
the lodges.  This was certainly very inferior coffee, and not unlike such
~s I imagine Red Cloud's sample would make.
~4II.-Tobqcco.
The character of the tobacco flirijished the Indians at this agency
has been a matter of considerable discussion, and justly so, as this
artide is regarded by the Indians as all important part of their rations.
Both Red Cloud and Red Dog complained on this point at the first
council I held with them, and one of the samples Red Cloud gave me
was a specimen of the tobacco he was then using.  This specimen at.
tracred much attention among the officers in our camp, and led us to
observe the quality in use amon~ the Indians.  All the tobacco we saw
was vile stuff, dark in color, and much of it was saturated with a dark,
viscous liquid.  I saw the tobacco issued to fl~e Indians November 15,
but only noticed that it was dark in color.  I subsequently saw the
tobacco used by Red Cloud, Red Dog, and ~Ian afraid-of-his-horses, and
in one council smoked the tobacco placed by Red Cloud in his own
I)ipe.  All of this agreed, ap~~arently, with the sample lie gave me, and
I have no doubt this sample fi~irly represented the tobacco issued to
the Indians during my visit.  Some of the ofticers who were with me
at the agency looked into this subject with still more care, aiid their
opinion on this point coincides with my own.  None of the tobacco we
saw was of much service to the Indians, who use the article only for
smoking.
IX.-S~~ffcrittg ~J. the Ii~~1iq )t8 (Ill ri~ig the i)ast ~cii~ter.
The suffering among the Iiidians at Red Cloud agency during the
past wii~ter was very great.  No small part of it could have been prevented by good ni ana gem en t, while the greater portion must have been
the result of the direct dishonesty which I have shown to exist.
The Indians had already suffered from cold before the annuity-goods
were issued November 12, 1874.  In consequence of this late delivery,
they had no time to supplement the small number of blankets issued
with buffalo-robes before the winter set in.  In less than a week after
the issue, just as I started from the agency on my expedition, the
weather became extremely cold, the thermometer falling to 150 below
/ero; aiid as many of the Indiaiis received no blankets at all, and most
of those who did receive fliem found the in too small to protect them from
cold, tlie suffering was great.  One of the chiefs, whom I had engaged
before the issue to accompany me, informed me, after the delivery, that
he could not go, being compelled, on account of the iiisnfficiency of
blankets, to the hunt for buffalo, as otherwise his family would suffer
~reatly during the hard winter he said was coming.  During the ex 
20
tremely cold winter that followed, man~ of tl~ese Indians, as is now well
kn~O~~)n~ narrowly escaped freeziiig.
suffenug for want of food dn~ng the past winter and spring is
known to have been geiieral among the Indiatis at this agency.  I have
evidence on this point from several sources, amoi~~ others from Col. T.
II. Stanton, paymaster of the Army, whose duties called him to the
agel~cy. Another Army officer who has given me information on this
subject is Lient. W. L. Carpenter, who was stationed there all winter.
In a letter written at the agency, in April last, he says: "The Indians
are all quiet now. The poor wretches have been several times this
winter on the verge of starvation, through the rascality of the Indian
ring.  They have been compelled to eat dogs, wolves, aiid ponies." The
supply of food purchased by the Government, carefully and honestly delivered, would have prevented all this suffering.
X. -Freight- contr~tct J'ro m Gheyen?t C to ageflQu.
The goods and supplies for Red Cloud agency are all transported by
wagon from Cheyenne, on the Union Pacific Railroad, and hence the
freight-contract for this route is a veryiluportaut one.  Mr. D.J.McCann,
a well-known member of the Indian ring, has had this contract since the
present agency was established, and the official distance from Cheyenne
to this i)oint, as allowed by the Interior Department, is 212 miles.  The
price paid for freight during the last fiscal year was $1.10 per hundred
pounds for each hundred miles, and the previous year $1.75 per hundred pounds was paid.  This allowed distance of 212 miles was wAl
known to b~ largely in excess of the true distance, and yet no effort
seems to have been made by the Interior Department to ascertain the
correct distance, although its attention had been called to the subject
in 1873. In the mean time, the Land-Office of the Interior Department
has been surveying this same region, and h ad the Indiaii Bureau of the
same Department desired to know the exact, or even approximate, distance, it could readily have obtained official information on that point.
In November last, while I was at the Red Cloud agency, Mr. J. W.
llammond, assistant to the surveyor-general of Wyoming, surveyed the
route from Cheyenne to Red Cloud agency, and informed me that it
was only 145 miles, and his official survey is now on record in Cheyenne.
It thus appears that the Indian Bureau lias for years, knowingly, paid
to a member of the Indian riug over fifteen thousand dollars per annum
tor service that was not performed.
think it fairly follows, from the evidence I have now presented, that
he samples of rations Red Cloud gave me to show to you represent
the average quality of the supplies issued to his people, at least during
lie time of my visit; that this chief's complaints of his agent, which
I brought to you, were literally true; and that the frauds in annuitygoods and beef-cattle, which he declared to exist, were not overstated.
The great difficulty in ascertaining the extent of these frauds, or even
in makii~g any investigation, is largely due to the fact that the luterior
Department has retained none of the original samples on which the
purchases for Indians were made during the last fiscal year; the only
sample known to the Department to exist being that of flour, at Chey. -
enne, where gross frauds have beei~ committed. This difficulty is further increased by the failure of the In~liau Bureau to transmit the
accounts of Agent Saville for the last year to the Treasury Department,
as required by law.
The responsibility for all this mismanagement and fraud should rest 
with Secretary Delano and Commissioner Smith, who have long ki~own
of the abuses at Red Cloud agency.  No less than five special corn missioners, or other officials, appointed and paid by the Det)arttnent of the
Iiiterior, had personally investigated this agelicy before my visit, ai~d
given that Department information indicating the bad state of affairs
there.
A portion of the responsibility for the inferior goods and supI)lies pur~~hased l~ist year should, l)erhal~s, attach to Messrs. F. II. Smith, N. I.
Turiiey, and J. 1). Lang, of the Roard of Indiaii Con~missioners.  These
gentlen~en assisted ii~ in ailing the pnrchases, retained no samples by
whiek the character of their purchases could be snbseqneiitly tested, and
k}1bt}i~eShb%la}i~O1 report of their action, as previous purchasing-committees
In conclusion, I have only to say, that having been, while engaged in
i~~y i)rofessional duties, incidentally made tile bearer of Red Cloud's
message to you, and having endeavored, when the justice of his coml)laints was questioned by those responsible for tile management of
Indian affairs, to ascertain the truth, I now leave the whole subject in
~-our hands, in perfect confidence that the fi~cts I have presented will
lead to good results.
~Wery respectfully, your obedient servant,
0. C. MARSTI.
YALE COLLEGE, J~(1y 10, 1875.
FIFTH-AVENUE liOTEL, NEW YORK,
Iuesday, Jnly 20, 1875.
i?reseiit: lion. THOMAS C. F~~~c~~n, chairman; lion. CHARLES J.
FAULKNER, lion. B. ~V. liARRIS.
lion. B. P. Smith, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, was also present.
TESTIMONY OF PROF. 0. C. MARS II.
Professor Marsh, having laid before d~e commission his letter to the
President of the 10th July, as presenting the general substance of what
he desired to communicate to the commission, then proceeded, at the request of the commission, to explain his statement, as follows:
I will first say that in the ]etter which I received from Commissioner
Smith, dated July 1, 1875, he requested me to put in writing, in a definite form, my charges against the management of Indian affairs at Red
Cloud agency, for the use of the commission which had been appointed
to investigate these affairs at Red Cloud agency.  In reply to that I
stated, on the date of July 3, in my letter to fl~e Commissioner, that I
would at once proceed to prepare a detailed statement embodying that
eXidence, a copy of which I would with pleasure lay before the corn mission as SOOl' as they informed me that they were organized and ready to act.
The commission have asked me for this statement, and I have presented
the~ with the printed copy.  This letter contains the important evidence in my possession in regard to the affairs of Red Cloud agency,
and matters connected therewith.  I prepared it conscienfionsly, and
gave what I believe to be the truth. Any additional evidence that I
can give the commission that will tend to develol~ the whole truth I will
give with pleasure, but this information will be for the use of the com
mission only.  In many cases I can give them the iiames of witnesses 
22
who are familiar with the facts I have mentioned and other facts to
which I refer indirectly, and from these witnesses they can obtain much
additional evidence.  Any explanations ill regard to my statement that
I can give the commission, that will tend to bring out the truth, I shall
be very glad to present, so far as I have them ready at the present time,
and I would especially request that, after the commission have investigated these matters referred to in this statement, and called upon the
witnesses I have named, if there should be any points not clear to them,
or any witnesses that they should be unable to find, in consequence of
their being absent from localities where they are sought, I ask the priv~lege, as well as claim it as a right, to obtain further evidence on these
l)oints, either from the witnesses I have named or from others.
I will here say that a request for this information bad been previon sly made by the Secretary of the Interior, orally, during an interview which I had with him in NVashington; that I gave him then the
illain points of the charges orally, and told him distinctly that when the
commission he had req nested to be appointed was organized I would lay
before them this definite information; and I assured him that anything
that I could do to reach the whole truth of affairs should be done
cheerfully.  I will also say that the documents I have quoted in this
statement are all, or nearly all, in my possession. The copies of the
contracts and other official docnments to which I refer were obtained
directly from the Interior and Treasury Departments. The proposals
which I quote are the official proposals.
By the CllAiR~AN:
Question. In your statement are contained, in the first place, some
nine or ten charges that are made briefly, and then they are each separately treated under separate heads, and there is the full information
given in reference to each one of them.
Answer. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, take the statements made in explanation of them. Take the
first one, on page 14, which is where the charges, or the proof of them,
begins. It is stated that Red Cloud's specified charges were that his
agent was weak and vacillating, aiid had no infinence over the Indians,
and especially that he was in league with the contractors to defraud the
Indians of the food and clothing sent them by the Government.  I
regret to say that all I saw myself at the agency, and all I learned from
trustworthy observers and official records, has convinced me that these
charges were well founded. Now, have you stated in this pamphlet all
you there saw which led you to that conclusion; and will you give us
the names of the other trustworthy observers that you refer to, from
whom we may obtain their information ~  llave you stated here all the
facts that you may have observed yourself and referred to the persons
and the official documents that established that conclusion in your
mind~
A. Not all of them. I can give you additional witnesses to testify to
the agent's incompetency, &c.
By Mr. FAuL~NER:
Q. State to t]~e commission what opportunities you had, while at the
Red Cloud agency, of forming an opinion of the character, efficiency,
and qualifications of the agent there.
A. I saw him almost every day for a week. 1'irst I saw him in the
council with the Indians when the question in regard to my expeditioTl
to the "bad lands" was discussed, and I saw him issue the annuity 
23
goods to the Indians.  I saw him at the time when tlie Indians drove
back my expedition, and at other times.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. You have stated that you will furnish the names of the other
observers of his conduct.
A. Yes, sir; I will give you those names.
Q. And the official records to which you refer you will furnish us a
~nemor~ndum of~
A. Yes, sir; in regard to the witnesses, I will furnish, right here,
Commissioner Smith as one of the persons who, appealing to me, said
that Saville was not a person qnalifled to fill so important a position.
lie can tell you on what ground be based his statement.  All others
that I mention as observers I will give the names of hereafter.  The
records I refer to are quoted in this docnment.  I have others, but have
only touched a few, because the Commissioner called on me only a few
days ago to prepare this statement.  I had the information in various
forms, and wa'ited to be perfectly clear and right abont it, and I said to
him that as soon as the commission were organized and ready to act, I
would give this to them.  Now, when you come to take up the official
accounts and compare them, the accounts themselves prove a great deal
in addition to what I refer to here.  That you will find on examination,
aiid I refer to it for your information.
By the CHAIRMAN:
(? The next matter we wish to iiiquire about is on page 15; defrauding
the Indians by withholding from them provisions charged against the
Cr overn meat as issued to them.  There you give an example.
A. Yes, sir.  Pardon me one moment.  In regard to the affair of the
flag-staff, which is mentioned before that, I refer to that merely to show
the hostility of the Indians toward Saville
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Yery well; explain what that occurrence was to which you refer
on page 14.
A. The agent attempted to pnt up a flag-staff inside of the stockade at
the agency, well kn owing that the Indians did not approve of it.  And
as soon as it was attempted, their hostility was manifested in the most
violent manner.  They came there prepared to burn the agency, some
having straw under their blankets, and others well armed, and ready to
destroy all at the agency.  The agent, when the danger came, sent a
messenger hastily to Camp Robinson, a mile and a half off, (a military
post put there to protect the agency,) and Lieutenant Crawford came
with his company of cavalry, or part of it, to the rescue of the agent, as
given in my statement, page 14.
Q. This circumstance occurred before you arrived?
A. ~~hile I was on my way to the agency, a few days before my
arrival.
Q. And you heard it from cthers?
A. Yes, sir; I would refer, for-the proof of that, to Major Jordan, the
commanding officer at Camp Robinson at the time, ~nd to Lieutenant
Crawford himself.  In regard to the total want of system in the issue of
the annuity-goods, that I will explain to you.
By Mr. liARRIS:
Q. You say, "Of the more debasing influences, & c., I will not speak."
I want to ask you what you mean by that?
A. I mean, in the first place, that by the regulations of the Indian 
24
Departn~ent it is niilawf~l for an ageiit to allow li~nor on the reserva
tion, and yet I saw one of the einploy6s of the ~ge1it iiitoxicated while
issuing snpplies to tlie Indians.
Q. Do you kiiow his name?
~~. I could not give his name, but he was one of the regular cmploy6s
at the agency.
Q. That was duni~g yonr November visit?
~. Yes, sir; I als6 saw the sanie inan under the influence of liquor
the second time at the agency.  Secondly, I saw one of tl~e employt's of
tlie agenQv standing at the door of tlie warehouse endeavoring to cittice into the warehouse for improper purposes a youiig Indian gid.
Ilis request to her I heard distiiictly, and his offer to lier of a blanket
if she would comply with his request.  She was a half~breed and lie
was talking to her ill i~iiglish.
Q. You do not know the name of this person?
A. No, sir; I could not give it.
Q. I want to ask, in addition to that, if you know that either of those
circumstances were brought to the knowledge of the agent?
A. No, sir; I do not know that.
Q. Do you know whether or not he had any way of knowing that, or
permitted the introduction of liquor upon the agency?
A. I do not know that of my own knowledge, but I Utink I can give
you some naiiies of witnesses that will tesfif~ to that.  The othur I saw
myself.
By the CllAIRMAN:
(?.Now, will you state what this want of system and managemeiit in
the agency affairs consisted of in the matter of the annuity-goods, &c.?
A If you will make a note of that, say, see page 17, under annuitygoods, referring to page 14, that will explain it.
Q. Well, on that subject, do you know more than has been stated?
A Yes, sir; I have mentioned to you what I saw, as I did to the
Commissioner when I came back, about the loose and irresponsible way
in which the distribution was made. Pages 17 to 20 will give you that.
Now, the entire issue was made in a few hours of a single November
day, in a severe snow-storm.  Now, when I come to speak about the
annuity-goods, I can detail the inconvenience and suffering caused to
the Indians by the lateness of the delivery.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. Now, will you tell us what you saw there indicating a general want
of system iu that respect?
A. I will state that for the details of some things, showing this want
of system, see pttge 20.
Q. In your statement you say the entire issue for the year was made
in a few hours of a single November day, in a severe snow-storm, &c.
Now, what have you to say upon the subject of the checks and accounts?
I would like to have you state all you know upon fliat subject, because,
as it stands now, it was really thrown.out without any check whatever.
A. I will state right here, that the only data by whidi the matter was
regulated was a pencil-memoranduni in the hands of the agent.  lle
called the articles off, and then these goods were chucked out of the
door in the most hasty and careless manner-thrown out to some of the
headmen.  They go according to families and bands, i~ed Cloud being
the chief of the whole and Bed Dog second.  Each family, again, has
a chieftain as headman, aiid he takes the goods for a certain number of
lodges.  When you get the property-returns you will find these head 
2t)
1)~ei~ receij~t for goods or make their mark, ai~d these goods were so
called ont in that way.  For iiistai~ce, for ~~~hite Tail, so ll~any l~lankets,
as throwii ont ilt pieces uncut; that is for his baud, aiid lie takes then~
aiid divides tliezn up afterward to suit himself; that is, he has absolute
power over tlie liumber of lodges he 1'epresents.
~~ So that, whenever this man took any record, he took a record of
the tirticles which were to be delivered to the headman, and having
iiiade the record, he threw ont the goods, the Iu(iians beiiig outside of
the store-houses, waiting to receive them?
~.Yes, sir; some of the old chiefs were inside, and whenever any of
the lesser chiefs or common Iiidians caiiie inside they were driven ont.
Q.Now, do you know that the agent did not keep correct data of
what lie did deliver?
~.~Vell, I stood there, and, with what I saw of this pencil-ii~emoranduin, I know that when they were handed over n
from tlie Indians., 0 receipt was takeu
(? Is that customary?
A.I think so  Now, suppose I am delivenng these goods, and I have
certaiii favorites amoiig the Indiai~s; aiid suppose a certain chief has
beeii favoring me, and I want to favor him, and say so many bales for
~uch a chief and so many for such a one, without taking any receii)t.
That is what I mean.  The whole thing depended on the honesty of the
persoi~ iii charge of the delivery.
Q.I wish to know whether you saw anything in that delivery of goods
that showed you that there was any improper disposition of the goods?
A.I will say here that the second chief i?ed Dog, whom I knew,
called my attention to that.  Of course I, as a visitor, merely saw what
went on under my own eyes.  You will find, nuder the head of blankets,
where I speak of what i~ed Dog said about it.
Q.Then yon don't know about it, except as stated by i~ed Dog?
A.That is the information I got from him.
(~. An~i unless you assnme that the agent or somebody else was acting fraudulently, then there was no presumption about it?
A.N\~ell, here were the men who received the goods, and who were
directly interested in it~ that stated it to me.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.I understand your testimony to refer to the hasty manner in which
this was done, and not to any fraud.
A.Yes, sir; that is it in part.  Instead of the goods being issued
pe~ c(~~ita, they were thrown out in this way, and the whole thing was a
scramble.  Their being thrown out iii that short time and in that manncr made me very iiidignant.  {For frauds in these annuity goods, see
statement, p. 18.1
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.Now, the next thing you say, "he defraniled the Indiai~s by
withholding provisions from the in," &c., atid give an example.  Now,
are there any other sources of information except those you state here?
A.If that is not sufficient, I can give more.  By going over these
accounts, there are a great many discrepancies.  ~~hen you get the
property-returns you will find a great 111 any, and these follow right from
the official documents themselves.  I take Up one here and illustrate it.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.Before that, beginning on the first of the sixteenth page, you
make a statement that the agent was put there to guard the interests of
both Indians and the Government, and that he has betrayed both. 
26
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  I want to get at what you know about that.  N\~hat I want is to
call your attention to the charges made, and, after that, to call for what
you base them upon.
A.  Yes, sir.  For exa~~ple, ~aville informed me that he was withholding the rations until the Indians would consent to be counted.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q.  I think you told us that the agent had told you be had orders not
to issue provisions until the Indians were counted.
A.  Yes,. sir. I understand the Commissioner to say that that is correct.
Q.  You further state that you arrived at the agency on the 9th, and
that the first issue, after the counting was finished, was November 14.
Now,when was the count; do you know?
A.  The count was finished, I think, about the 13th.  1 am not quite
sure about that, but about that time. It was not completed when I got
there, but it was completed before this issue, as I understand it.
Q.  You say, "In the same manner his official reports represent other
issues that never took place." Can you refer us to anything more than
generally to the provision-returns, or returns of issues of property?
A.  The accounts, as I looked them over, show discrepancies which
render those dat~s impossible. That is what I mean by that.
Q.  Will that be apparent upon inspection of the property and provision returns?
A.  I think so.
Q.  Upon iiiformation or personal knowledge, which is it, that you
base your statement that no beef was issued on the 8th of November,
1874?
A.  Upon information which I deem reliable.
Q.  ~~hat is that information?
A First, the statement of the agent himself.
Q.  Which was made to you?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And which was what~
A.  That he h~d been withholding rations for some time, oii account
~~f orders from the Department to do so until the Indians would consent
to be counted.
Q.  Any other fact?
A.  Other persons there gave ine the same information.
Q.  And these persons you will give 115 the names of?
A.  Yes, sir.  I also have that on a statement made to me at the
agency, and a statement subsequently made by Agent Saville, in Washington, to Bishop llare, as given in my published statement, on page 25.
Q.  Did you hear the statement made to Bishop llare?
A.  I did.  I was present, and I have Bishop II are's signature to that
statement.
Q.  Now, you refer to the fact that other special commissioners of the
Interior Department have likewise reported unfavorably of this agent
and the affairs of the agency. You will give us some memorandum by
which we may obtain some reference to that?
A.  Yes, sir.  Allow me to say I state, in the first place, that he
defranded the Indians, and then give information as to how he did it.
For evidence of how he defrauded the Government, see section 4 of this
statement. Then, as to the previous fraud and incompetency, I state
my information: Inspector Bevier's report of October, 1874, of which
you will get a certified copy at the Department. 
27
Q. The others, you will give us the names of parties?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Refer~ug to page 1~, you say, "In the same manner his official
reports represent other issues that never took pi ace."  Have you any
knowledge or any facts or information by which you can guide us in
that inquiry?  Give us any references.
A. That point came up, and I said that, in looking over his accounts,
I noticed discrepancies between the dates he gives, and the discrepancies
themselves are shown by the accounts.
Q. Then you refer to his official accounts?
A. To his official accounts.  I think I have soiue notes on that point.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. If you have any further information on that, you can furnish it by
a niemorandum.
A. Yes, sir; I know of certain information that I received on the
ground that the accounts are wrong.  If you compare his official
accounts of the dates of issues with the facts yoll will obtain from the
persons who were there at the actual time of the issues, that will show.
Q. Now, sir, in the second subdivision: Have you stated in this pamphlct all the reasons that you have for believing that the number of the
Indians supplied at the Red Cloud agency has been largely overestimated? Ha~e you other reasons?
A. Yes, sir.  I will s~y that the provision-returns, as stated in my
pamphlet, give Ia,117 Indians receiving rations at the agency October
1.  Now, that is a very broad statement, because there is a date written
down.  Now, it is well known that at that time, October being a great
hunting mouth, and the Indiaiis scattered all over the country hunting,
there would be but few Indians there. They do not begin to come in there
for their annuity goods now for the winter; and to put the number at
15, f)O() the first of October is, to any one familiar with Indians, an absurdity on the face of it.  I inquired particularly about the number of
Indians, because my attention had bee ii called to it before.  It is stated
in the last report of the Indian Commissioner, I think, that there are
about 53,OO() of the Sioux; but I think those familiar with the number
would not estimate them at over half that.  Jules Ecoffey, a man who
knows more about the Red Cloud Indians than almost any one, can give
you information on that subject. You will find him at Fort Laramie, and
his opinion on that one point would be worth more than almost any other
person.  He is going back and forth from Fort Laramie to the agency
constaiitly.  He would give you the names of other parties, those
familiar with that point.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Have you any other information of your own, except what is derived from others ~
A. Well, I was around the agency there for some time.  I saw where
the Indians were encamped, and although I did not make any attempt
at an exact estimate myself, yet I had information from many people
familiar with it, in regard to the number of Indians there at the time.
Q. Do you claim that if there were Indians belonging to the northern
tribes which were encamped within a short distance of the agency, it
would be improper for the agent of Red Cloud to issue rations of beef to
them?
A. That is a point I do not touch. 
Q. ~~~ell, even if the I~ed Cloud In(iians did not nnn~ber 17~,I17, there
n~ay have been others of other tribes that wonld bring up the number
to that?
4 I do not believe there were more tliaii half of that number.
Q. I ask if you ki~ow. Tile Indian coniinissioners reported a year ago
that tl~ere were about 15,000 Indians, but afterward came before the
committee and stated they were mistaken, and based their information
on Professor Ilarris's report; so we ought to be tolerably correct about
that matter.
A. I took the statement of the agent thei~e that there were two or
three thousand northern Indians encamped across the NVhite i?iver
that he stated repeatedly, and repeate~l it to I)~cv. S. J). lliuinan and
myself in ~Vashington. I asked him what chief they belonged t(~, and
he said Little Big ~fan was one.  I called his atteiitioii to that particularly, and he meufioned that chief as one.
Q. And you say that statement of his was not true
A. Yes, sir; in regard to the number.
Q. And, so far as you know, were no northern Indiai~s there?
A. ~o, sir; I mean to say the number was esfitnated at from 2,000 to
4,000 l~y different persoiis, but I have put it at 2,000 to 3,000, and ill
order to make HP the 15,000 it would be impossible, as i~ed Cloud's band
dont reach any such numbers.
Q. You say this is well known, but I want to get at the source of the
information.
A. I say that the agent and others told me about there being two or
three thousand northern Indians encamped across the NVhite I~iver. I
~~ent over the river right where the Indians should be encamped, and
counted the lodges myself, and there were less than forty. I went into
one of these lodges, and I had with me a man named Farnam, as guide
and interpreter, and he knew son~e of those Indians, and told me they
belonged to P~ed Cloud's band-those that we caine in contact with.
Northern Indians frequently come down across titere, as is well known.
At the time the annuity goods were distributed, there were some northern Indians, but I believe that the great number of northern Indians
which they repor~ there receiving supplies is false.
Q. You charge a deliberate falsehood in the returns, and you say that
there were not over 8,400 individuals )
A. I say I have good reason to believe that the number of Indians
supplied with provisions at the Red Cloud agency has been largely overestimated, and makes a loss to the Government. Now, if the agent
claims to have fed 15,000 Indians on the 1st of October, that, I say, is
defrauding the Government.
Q. That you say; but we want to get at the means by which you form
that opinion. Please go on and state the information you have tending
to that conclusion.
A. I state this specific case, a'~d then say I believe from information
I got from others who ought to know. I will give you names of parties
bearing on that point.
By Mr. FAULKN1~R:
Q. I suppose the (~overnment is in the habit of allowing a certain
amount of provisions and annuity goods in proportion to those livii~g
within the limits of any particu[ar agency?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~Vell, how would it be received by the residei~t Indians if there
was an intrusion of four or five thousai~d northern Indians who would 
29
be strangers to them and not within the benefaction of the Governiiieiit`?  ~Yonld it not be resisted nimost as a cq~us belli?
A.The iiortherii Indians are n~ostly wadike, and the relations between the tribes are such that the Ogalinlas would not like their comilig there.  At the P~ed Cloud agency there were not ojily Sionx, but
other tribes there drawing rations, and aronud them at the time.  The
agent can always tell a Sioux from a Cheycuije or Arapahoc.  I passed
by the Arnpahoe camp.  The famous Friday, who was then with his
ban~l, came up to me and spoke to me about the blankets, and gave ine
information about it.  Friday speaks English perfectly, having been
educated in the East a~id sent back.  lle is an Arapahoc, and was there
with the Arapahoes.
Q.I do not see how there can be any order or system in this distributioii if those living without the limits are permitted to come there and
take from the resident Indians their proportion allotted by the Government.
A.The Government increases its donatioii to that very agenQy on
account of these supposed northern Indians, and the appropriations
are directly asked to n0eet this.
Q.Did you record what you said abont Big Little Man at the time of
the distribution of the annnity goods?
A.Yes, sir; the reporter has that, I think.  I do not in can to say
that Big Little Man was the one who received the goods.  I asked the
agent what northern Indians were there during my visit, and he said,
"~%ll, Big Little Man was one of them." He did not say directly that
Big Little Man received the goods, bnt some northern Indians did.  On
tlie list of receipts Big Little Man's name did not appear, as I remember. I wonld also say, in regard to the number of Indians, the method
of liumeration is to count the lodges and multiply by seven.  In the
agent's provision-returns he does not attempt to discriminate between
the men, women, and children, but merely puts down the total number,
so that there is no check npon that.  Seven is about the number, I believe, at each lodge.
Q.I thought it was five.
A.That depends npon the wealth of tlie Iiidians.  If they are
wealthy the lodges are more numerous, and if they are I)00~ they crowd
more into them.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q.Do yon know where we can find this Mr. Louis i~eshaw illentioned
ill your pamphlet?
A.Yon will probably find hiill at Fort Laramie.  He may have gone
with the Sioux commission to treat for the Black Hills.  Mr. J. S. Collins,
~ecretary of that commission, would be likely to take him as interpreter.
Leshaw is a man of education, of property, and well known.  lie was
guide of the Stanley expedition in 1873, when General Bradley was
there.  His father is at the i~ed Cloud agency, and he has one or two
brothers there.  I have known him by reputation for some time, and he
was there with me acting as interpreter.  General Bradley and Mr.
Collins both kiiow hi in, aiid I refer to those gentlemen for his references.
M~or Burt, too, I will meiition, had known him for a long time, and he
engaged hini for me, or at least told me about hiin.
By Mr. HARRIS:
~~& Now, the whole burdeii of this matter about the blankets is that
about twenty bales were issued, and that the number issued could not
p~ssibly have exceeded twenty~five; now it seems the agent claims to
have delivered on that day thirty-five bales? 
30
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Now what other evidence except what is stated here, in point, can
you furnish the committee to establish that fact?
A.I state what occurred in the warehouse; and then having had my
attention called to this, I talked it over afterward with Red Dog, and, I
think, also with Red Cloud and NVhite Tail, and two other Indians
spoke about that very point, the number of blankets issued.  Red
Cloud was very bitter.
Q.Did Red Cloud kiiow at that time?
A.He stood right in the warehouse with afl these chiefs watching the
thing closely, and the constant struggle of the younger chiefs was to see
for themselves.
Q.Do you know of anybody except this Reshaw that counted the
bales?
A.No, sir.
Q.He says in his affidavit that the nnmber was eighteeii bales, each
bale containing fifty pairs. Does he mean on that day?
A.On that day; that is the only issue of annuity goods.
Q.Do you state that?
A.He says it; that he is very positive of.
Q.Do you know of anybody else who has the same information?
A.No, sir; not to the positive count.
Q.Now, I want to ask this question: If the agent delivered the same
blankets that he received from the Coverument, whether you can hold
him responsible in any way for the fact that the blankets were bad,
thin, and small?
A.No, sir; not at all; that belongs to Commissioner F. P. Smfth
with F. H. Smith, chairmaii of the purchasing committee. Tlie annuity
goods the agent had nothing to do with, so far as purchasing was conceriied.
Q.Do you know how long the blankets had been in the agency at the
time of delivery?
A.I could not S'1~ the exact time; the blankets were shipped froIll
Philadelphia on the 4th, 5th, and 8th of ~eptember.
Q.How can that be shown?
A.That can be shown by the persons who shipped them. I have the
information right from the Department, the date of shipment, the
amount, and the jiumber.
Q.Can weget that?
A.Yes, sir; right from the Department.
Q.That is the shipment to the Red Cloud agency?
A.Yes, sir; the Red Cloud agency; the ship in cuts were made the
4th, 5th, and 8th of September, I think.
Q.You say the Indians are out on their hunts about October and
along there?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Do you know whether it is practicable to make a distribution of
the annuity goods to the Indians before their return in the fall?
A.It should certainly be practicable to issue goods before the cold
weath~ begins.
Q.~Vell, if they are there?
A.They will come there if the goods are there; there is no trouble
about that.
Mr. Commissioner Smith here suggested to the committee in the
midst of the examination the fact of whether his order that the goods
should not be delivered to tl)0 Indians until the count of the Indians 
31
was made, should not be considered in connection with this pojut. Also as
to the fact of whether that br~nd "U. S. I. D." was damaging to all the
blankets.  lie stated that he had no knowledge of any, except what was
put on in red, which was damaging to the biaiikets.
By Mr. llAR~RIS:
Q. Did you see any blankets that were damaged?
A. I heard them talking about it there at the agency.  The annuity
goods were issued on the 12th of November.  Theu I went oft on an
expedition for about two weeks, and was back there, and then I heard
the complaints about the blankets.  There is no doubt about that fact.
Mr. lloyt, chairinaii of the present purchasing committee, says he has
bad his attention called directly to it.
By the CllA~RMAN:
Q. You state in that connection here that the fact referred to in the
aftidavit of Reshaw is well known to every one at the agency. Now, furi~ish ine with the names of any parties that you know will give any information about that.
A. Yes, sir, I will give you those names. Now, I have beeu looking
into this blanket business, because J. & J. Dobson & Company have
been highly recommended, and I thought it was proper they who furnish
the blankets should rise and explaiii. I am told, and Mr. Smith will
state whether it is done or not, that, so far from this brand ou the
blankets rotting the cloth, being the only objection, that the blankets,
when purchased, were otherwise inferior; the bid was accepted upon
certain samples of blankets; that when the blankets were ready for
shipment, it was found they did not correspond with the sample; and
iiistead of holding the parties right to the sample of the blankets, they
look the inferior blankets upon a reduction of the price being made. I
merely heard that, and you can ask Mr. Smith whether it was so.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; but it is a most immaterial thing.  There is no
q'~estion about the quality of the blankets, and about their being pertectly fit for Professor Marsh or myself~ or any other gentleman, and
for that you have the integrity of the best house in Philadelphia.  It is
a fact, however, as he states, that when the sharpest inspector in tlie
Department came to examine Dobson's blankets with a magnifyingglass he found one of the classes that did not come up in the quality of
rhread to the sample, and lie held them strictly to it, and deducted
according to the difference between what he regarded the blanket which
was offered as a sample and tbe blanket which was flirnished, and on
n~y order, provided lie deemed the blanket actually delivered by Dobson Association for the Indians.  That in spector is Mr. Wilcox; he is aii
old merchaiit of New Y9rk, of the highest reputation, knows his busiiiess, and is above suspicion.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. N\~hat are his initials?
A. I cannot say.
(~.Of New York?
A. Yes, sir; of New York.
Professor MARSH. The bids are a~cepte~l on samples, and tlie contractors are not compelled to furnish goods equal to the samples.  But
this is a case in point, small in amount, perhaps, but when the blankets
pr~ved inferior, they should be rejected.
Mr. HARRIS. That does not strike at the Indian agent, however.
Professor MARSH. r~he agent is the smallest part of this business.
Mr. HARRIS. Where else is it? 
a~2
Protessor ~IAPsfl. Commissioner Smith; perii~~p5 the Secretary of
the Interior; whoever made these coi~tracts.
ThIr. liARRIS. The man who i)assed the goods or received them knowing the~n not to be up to the standard is the person UI)On whom the
responsibility falls.
The C~Aium~A~. I understand ~Ir. ~~ilcox is an old meichant, and a
con~j~etent man for inspecting the goods, aiid upon inspecting them he
detected them as not being up to the sample, but decided them sufficiently good for the purpose, and accepted them as being such blankets
~s would be serviceable for the Iiidians and deducted the difference
between the price of the blankets and the l)rice of the sample which
was offered.
~Ir. SMITll. That is exactly my statement of the fact.
Professor ~~IAR5il. I will ask the Commissioner if an inspector who is
furnished a sample of certain goods and a copy of the contract, whether
he has the right, if he finds goods do not come up to the contract, to
use his judgment in the matter ~
Mr. SMITll. Invariably; and has been throughout the Army and everywhere else from time immemorial. The difference in the blankets was
very small, and only detected by the aid of a microscope.
By the CllAi~~A~:
Q. Now, following on to the ofl~er annuity goods issued at that time.
You first state that you entered an earnest protest against the manner
in which the issue was made. Now, in addition to the descrij)tion which
you give of the manner here, is there anything else about the manner
of it that strikes you as being wrong ~
A. N\~ell, no; I do not know that there is anything more to say about
that. Now, the annuity goods you will find from tlie transportationreceipts-you want particularly to call for McCann's transportationreceipts. The agent should receipt for all the goods he receives. Then
you will have additional information on that point.
Q. On page 20, sp~aking of the issue, you say: "The only data by
which the issue was regulated was by a pencil memorandum, &c. Thus,
there was no guarantee that the Indians received even half the goods
intended for them." Now, the question I wish to put to you is whether
or not you have sufficient knowledge, so that you would be willing to
swear, if called upon, that that memorandun~ kept by the agent was
not a perfect memorandum of all the goods delivered?
A No, sir; I saw the goods delivered-nearly all of them-and I
particularly observed the blankets, and took them up as an important
thing, and, taking the information I got about the blankets and put.
ting it with what I have myseli~ that is my opinion, that it was not. I
I do not mean to swear to it, but that is my opiniou.
Q. Now, in regard to the quality, independent of this matter of the
brand.
A. In the first place, there was the small size.
Q. Do you know that the blankets which were furnished were of small
sizes?
A. Yes, ~ir; they were all small sizes, and I say very distinctly they
were too small for the Indians.
Q. ~Vhat as to quality?
A. Iii regard to quality, Friday, who spoke English perfectly-I asked
him when we came, and what he thought of the blankets.  ~~~~~~~,~~ he
said," they are only fair blankets; they are not first. class blankets;
and he showed me a white blaiiket which he liad 011~ and said, "There's 
:3-3
a blanket I've had two years." It was a larger blanket than those-I
shonid say a four point; and I took it up and examined it-the texture
and quality-and his white blanket was a better one, of better quality.
By the CllAIRMAN:
(~.I notice in the proposals there were no proposals for larger than
three-point blankets.
A. Yes, sir; but it should be one higher size in place of the lower one.
All tlie blankets should be a size larger.
Q. You do llOt make any point that the size of the blanket did not
correspond with the l)roposal.
A. No, sir; but tlie fLult is iii making tlie proposals for the small
blankets.
By Mr. llARR~IS:
Q. Do you know at what price they were actually furnished?
A. I have not the price here, bi~t you will get it in tite coiitract.
Q. I)o you know whether tlie price was high or low, having reference
to the size and quality of the blankets?
A. No, sir; I do not.
~Ir. STh~ITH. The price is made by the I}ouiid. A small blanket of
course costs proportionately less than a larger one.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. As to tlie chiefs asserti!ig that the issue was fraudulent, did they
assert in what respect it was fraudulent?
A. That the number of blankets issued was made under what it
should have been, and they complained of the size of the blankets and
the quality. ked Cloud was very indignant, and said these blankets
were only fit for horse-blankets, meaning small blankets put under the
saddle for horses.  You will find, I think, that ked Cloud said the same
thing in the council at Washington.
By the CllAWMAN:
Q. Was tliis the only issue of annuity goods you ever saw among the
Indians ~
A. Yes, sir; I think the only issue amounting to anything.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. llave you learned from the Indians of their having got blankets
under the circumstances you have stated?
A. No, sir; I have not. I came away shortly after this, and do not
know, but you can easily get information oil that point. There are
pleiity of peol)le there who know about it.
By ~1r. FAvLKNER
Q. ~~hat brought you to the conclusion that there were only twentyfive bales of blankets delivered? Did you couiit them at tite time?
A. iNo, sir; I didn't couiit them, but when ked Dog called my attention to it afterward I thought it was an important matter, and
began to think it over carefully, and arrived at that conclusion.
By Mr. llA~P~i~:
Q. Did you ask the agent about it?
A. No, sir.
Q. NYhy didn't you? 
34
A. I was not iii~peetiiig ~`~t all.  I (li(l iiot kiiow tiat tbere were any
n~ore sent, and it was only wlieii I fonud i~~eshaw liad eoi~iiited them,
and I got this`~geiit'5 reeeii)ts sliowitig tbii'ty-flve bales delivered, thatthe
~~hole thing ~~as clear to me.  It. I liad see ii his pal)ers at tlie time a~(I
known that lie claimed to have issned thirty-five bales, I would have
said tlieii that it was iiot tr~ie.
Q. Your attention was called to tile fict by tile sin~ill qualitity you
saw issued?
A. Yes, sir.  After i~ed bog iiieiitioiied it to me.
(~.You did iiot ask the agent how many there were~
A. No, sir.
L)y tlie CllAirMAN:
()~. Now, the next matter that, it strikes iiie, ~-e waiit to make some
inquiries about is in reference to tlie beef-cattle.  Tlie first statement
that I call yoar attention to iii this coniiection is the oue cl~iming that
there is abundant evideiice that tlie coiitract was not made in good
faith-the contract with i~~oreman.  Now, l)esides what is siated here
as your evideiice on that subject, what, if any other, evidence can you
cite us to?
A. I have a great deal of iiiformation that lias come to me in a way
that I aiii iiot at l~berty to state, but I will give it to you, so that you
inay have it.  I will try to give you some metiioraiida in regar(i to it.
In the first l~lace, J. I~. I?oreiiiaii-and if you are goiiig through Omaha
you can StOp there aiid iliquire who J. I~. Foi'eiiiaii is.  lie is a man
wlio puts ill bids for beet  Iii the first i)lace, find out whether lie is a
beef-in an at all or iiot.  Theii you caii look iii to his boiid of.~150, 000,
wit Ii two sureties, that was giveii for the f('i~tl1fiil performance of his contract.
($). Then you will furnish us with soiiie other information on that I
point?
A. I will.  Aiid let me suggest here that you iliquire whether Foreman is a proper man to put in bids involving this vast amount of
money?
By ~Ir. FAULKNLH:
(~.~Ylio is NV A. Paxton?
A. ~Ir. Smith can tell you; lie knows him personally, I suppose.
~Ir. SMITlI. I do not kiiow hini.
Professor ~IAR5il. It is understood he is merely the agelit of the Boslers.  The Boslers have liad the contract I believe, although the old
board and the present purchasiiig committee tried to exclude them.  It
is sai~l that tlie Boslers have virtually control of all the beef-contracts.
(~.have you aiiy knowledge wheflier, wheii a contract is assigned,
even with the conseiit of the Secretary of tl~e Iiiterior, the responsibility
of the original bond yet contiiiues or not?
A. I suppose it does.
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it does uot.  A new bond is given.
Professor MARsll. The point is, that I daim this contract was given
to a man (J. l&. Foreman) who was not a responsible cattle-dealer.
By Mr. llARRi5:
(~.Have you any kiiowledge oil that poiiit?
A. I have iuforiiiation which I will give you that Foreman was not responsible.  Now, this contract was transferred.  It is a common custom
in Iiidian contracts, aiid has been too coiiiiiioii.  It is where the flrs~
iraud begiiis, aiid ~~ou waiit to get the bids ofibred for the cattle.  These 
35
inei~ n~ake their c'oinbiiiifions, e~cIi n~an putting in half a (lOZell bids
(uisiiig str~~~-bi(is~ under Whltsoever n~i11es they choose) to get the thing
111 501t0e ~vay.
L~y tiie CilAIRMAN:
(~. Yon state, 115 you arrived lit the agency, oil tiie 9tli of Xove~~t)Ci~, yOti ascertained there i~a~l been ilo beef issned for soii~e tiiiie, and
there ~vere ojily seven head of cattle reiflainilig from  previous issues.
A.  Yes, sir.
~? JIow did yoii ascertain t1~at?
A.  ~)~y in(~niriIig, aiid then tiie ageiit afterward told iiie.  ~o'v, here
0~ an llliportailt poiiit.  I quote from  tlie contract: " No coi~tract shall
be aSsiglied without the asseiit of tlie Secretary of the Interior."  Th~it
is iillI}ortailt, aiid I req nest your attention to the docunieiit itself, oji
tli is qnestioii of assigli inen t.
Ly ~fr. 11APR IS:
Q.  ~Vho is ~V. ~. Paxtoii
A.  lie is sul)j)osed to be merely tlie agent of tlie Boslers.  That infori~atiou you will get at (Ylieyeiine.
(? (4o oii aiid make a stateineiit about this.  I want to know how
n~ncl you kiio'v about it.  ~N~hlit evideiice have you that this man
was tlie ical coiitractor?
~.  I had inforiiiatioii from  iii cii wlio kiiew lilt about it, ai~d wlio
stated the tiarticulars of it.  ~)ne of the Boslers lias receiitly admitted
it.  (See Carlisle (I~enn.) IIeral~l, July 22, 1~75.)  I think you will find
that 1)(-)iiit clear.
t~. You claiiii no personal knowledge about that subject, but you know
from other peoi)le.
A.  I s~iy that every man about the agen~y, wlio knows anything
about it, knows that tlie Bosl~rs take their cattle ~l) there and suj~p1y
both those agelicies.  It is purfectly well known, aiid you can get that
iiif{~rniatioii there.
(? You say the real beef-contractor who in you fouiid supplying tite
ageilcy was tlie well-known Bosler, notorions for frauds iii l)revious
COil tracts, and for this reasoii excluded by tlie publications from any
particil)atioi~ ill pu~~lic contracts.`low do we get all that ~
A.  There is the clause of exclusioii in the regulations.
(~. Yes; but how do you establish the proi)ositiou of his notorious
fl:auds in l)revious contracts?
A.  I will give you some inforiiiatiou on that point.
(~. Now go back again to this subject: " Oi niy ai~ival lit tlie agency,
&c., I ascertained that there had l~eeu no beef-issue for sonie tiine, and
o~ily seveii head of cattle were remaining over from  pievious issues."
~ow, you ascertained that from persons there at the ageilcy?
A.  Yes, sir.
(~. A 11 (1 you will give us their names?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  You ascertained there were only seveii head of cattle remainiiig
there.  Now, iiiy ol~ject is to ascertaiii how yoii knew there were only
seven cattle Ien)ainiilg there, itiid liow you caii 5nbstaiiti'~te that i
A.  I will tell you how you can get at that.  A cei'taiu herd comes up
to tiie ageiley; the ageiit receil)ts for tlteni to the coiitr~ictor, aiid they
are theii in his charge.  He may issue all of them or oiily It I)art of them.
There aresometiines9OO head coiiiiiigat once.  Sut)~~ose he oiily issues
4f)() or 500 of them, Ii 11(1 his herder is iii charge of them  iiiitil " anted.
T!iere is the remnant left over from the issue, It 11(1 the agent has charge 
3().
of them. To be sure about this, I afterward asked the agent, in the
presence of jMr. Bin man, the interpreter of the Indian Bureau.  N\Te went
to Saville and talked with him about it, and that we have.  There is
also the affidavit (the origiiial of which I have) given by these three
Army officers.  That fact can be established by these three inca, who
went there and saw themselves.
Mr. BARRIs. That is presuming the fact.
Professor ~IARsll. The agent stated that.
By Mr. BARRIS:
Q. You did not personally see that?
A. No, sir.
By the CllAiRMAN:
Q. These officers certify they were there on the 11th of November and
saw that?
A. Yes, sir; that is tlie time.  These were the only cattle il~ere at
that time.  ~Vhen the contractor brings np liis cattle his first business
is to get his receipt for them and go away, aiid these were the remnant
of the herd.  The wordiiig of this is a little obscure, but the meaning, I
think, is that these seven head were left over froni a previous issue
made to the Indians.
By Mr. BA~Ris:
Q. Let me ask you whether that statement of Bradley, Mix & Bay
was written there?
A. It was written there by them  without the sli'~htest suggestion
from me, any way, shape, or manner, as to what it should be.
By Mr. FAvLK~i~R:
Q. And sent from them to ~Yashington?
A. Yes, sir.  ~Yheu the matter I mentioi~ was disputed, I telegraphed
a line to General Bradley to send me something of the kind in conjunction with Mix & Bay-a stateineiit regardiiig the cattle examined by
them at ~ed Cloud agency.  That I never saw until furnished.
By Mr. llARRi5:
Q. N\Till you furnish as the original of that?
A. I will furnish a copy of it.  I will show you the original.
By the CllAiRMAN:
Q. Now, in regard to this statement: " This certificate, which was
published while the Sioux delegation was in ~Yashiiigton, fully coufirmed my own statemei~t in regard to the same cattle there  and then
you go on at leiigth. ~ow, is there any additional flict going to show
any disposi~ioii on tlie part of tlie Cominissiolier of Ii~dian Affairs, or
the In~liau Bureau to weaken the effect of this position that you have
stated?
A. If you will put a note opposite to the latter part of that paragraph,
"See bottom of page 33, nuder statenient about flour."  That is one of
the things that I refer to.
Q. You iiiforn~ed ns that you would furnish the name of the person
from whom you have the statement.
A. I gave it to you confidentially. Yes, sir; I have it right from the
person to wl~om the ludjait Comii~issioiier dictated it, and who took the
dispatch down from his lips.
By Mr. BARRiS:
Q. You mean the attempt t'j destroy the effect of the testimoi~y? 
37
A. Yes, sir; that is as I interpret it.  As to this particular fact about
this se veli head of cattle, that dispatch, as I nuderstood it, was seut to
counteract tlie effect of that afh~lavit.
Q. You mean, of course, it was a corrnpt attei~pt to destroy the
effect of that evidence, and you mean to say that dispatch is not true?
A. I rneaii to say Commissioner Smith dictated that, just as it is, to
tlie agent of the Associated Press, whose name I have given you con
lidentially.
Q. You say this rej~ly coutained some statements which you knew
to be erroi)eous.  N\~hich do you kiiow to be erroneous?
A. First, that the cattle belonged to the contractor.
(~.flow do you know that?
A. ~\Tell, because getlemeu stated at the agency that those cattle
were, as I ii ave already mentioned, in charge of the agent, and had
been received from tlie contractor.
Q. You knew it from Savilie's own statement?
A. I did, subsequenHy.
(~.You have already stated that Saville stated that.
A. Yes, sir; I did.
Q. At the time of your interview in ~Vashington wiHi the ageiit and
~Ir. flinman, who was with you?
A. J\fr. liii) m an was at this first interview.
(~.On the 29th ~Iay, I mean.
A. I?ev. S. D. llinman, who is now on the Sioux commission. I after.
ward asked him about it, and showed him my notes, so that there should
be no mistake about it, aiid he confirmed every word.
By the CHAIRMAN:
(~.J)o you kiiow where ~Ir. Burt is?
~. Tie is oii this Black flills expedition; but he comes down with the
5U~)j)ly-tr'tii), aii~l you will fiad hi!ll at Laramie, or somewhere there.
By ~Ir. fiARRIs
Q. Now we waiit S. I). fliuman.  You state that what Red Cloud
tol(l ~`ou we can of course get at?
~. Yes, sir.
(~.i~() you know of any other maii`?
~. No; I will say that that was sul)seqnently confiriued.  The main
facts;~bout this matter were coiifirmed by a second conversation which
Agci~t Saville liad with Bisho1) flare iu my preselice.
~? ~Viiere is ~)~isho1) flare now
A. I (10 not kiiow exactly.  Tlie oiily differences were that tlie agent
varied a little iii liis statement about tile cattle beiiig issued, all of them,
to tlie Iiidians, but not at all about his having received them.  I will
Sho\v you notes that I took with Bishop flare-and he has liis own
J~otes (1150.  To be perfectly true about this fact, I went to lii in with my
ilotes, aii~l then he sigiie~l his statement at the foot, statii~g that the
liotes which I had were correct.  Of course, lie, having ap~~ointed
Saville, or having had to do with it, deemed it his (1tity to follow this
ul) closely, aiid questioned him, and I was there at the time.
Q. ~Yhe-re is ~Iaj. A. S. Burt~
A. I have just spokeii of him.  fle is at Fort Liramie, but lie probably i\)ay be back from that expedition.  I will 0ive on the addre
all ot these witnesses.                                 sses of
By the CllA~RMAN:
Q. Yes; aiid if you can do so, give the names of any other persons 
who were there at the time you witnessed this issue of beef on the 14th
of November.
A. Yes, sir. ~Iajor Burt was the oniy oiie that was with me right at
the issue, an d stayed through the whole thii~g. There were a number
of Army officers abont there, and he was with me during the whole
time.
By ~Ir. llA~iiS:
Q. Did you have all estimate of anybody else about their weight?
These cattle were to weigh SO() pounds, were they not?
A. Eight hundred and fifty pounds, sir.
Q. They were 100 l)0nn(l5 short, iccordiiig to your estimate?
A. Well, more than that.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. Was ~Iajor Burt present at the time Bosler was speaking of these
cattle
A. I won't be positive he was at iny side, but lie was right wifliiu the
ageiicy at the time. lie might not have beeii preseiit at that cou\~ersation, but he was there.
By Mr. llARR~IS:
Q. Can you give in any in ore precise words tha'i you have given in
your statement the apology which Mr. Bosler made?
A. You will see that I quote Agent Saville oil that very point.
By the CllAiRMAN:
Q. Yes. It is stated that the poor condition of the cattle is due to
their hard driving to reach the agency.
A. Yes, sir. Of course, it is evident that that hard driving would
tend to reduce the weight of the cattle, but it would not reduce the
skeleton of the cattle. It would rednee the weight very materially.
By Mr. llAJ?RIS:
Q. At the same time, theii, you had a conversation with Saville
about the probable weight of them?
A. No, sir; fl~at was in Washington, June 1.
Q. Yoi~ say, "The issue was made on the same afternoon of receipt.
Among the cattle then issued were forty or more small and`scalawag
cattle. Saville was confident these cattle, thin as they were, would
weigh 850 pounds on an average. On my questioning this, lie insisted
that those he weighed came up to the average, and these were fully as
large." Do you mean to say that was in the conversation at Washington?
A. Yes, sir; I quote that as in the Washington conversation.
Q. You say you don't know where Bishop flare now is?
A. I do not know. I had a note froiii him tiie other dty, and he was
at Bristol, R. I. I went to the Bible liouse, to see liim, last evening,
and it was too late. I had a long conference with him a week or two
ago, upon this very matter, so that there should be iio discrepancy
between our notes, as we both took no~es on the SpOt. All this coiifirms
the point I made about the non-issue of the beef on the 8th.
Q. flow many cattle came ill 011 that morning, according to your
information?
A. The official returns-his receipts-make 701 head. lIe receipted
for 701 head, (November 14.)
Q. Now, how long a time had the agent to weigh those cattle on that
day, from your own knowledge? 
39
~.It depen~~s on ho~v e'trly he eoi~tneiieed ill tlie illoriling.  Tii;tt ~
~iio\v iiothiiig (`~hOiit.  Tie had to get his breakfast and go tto~va to the
COrr~l.
~&~- Tiie cOrr~l is how far?
~.lfalf a n~ile or so.
~? About`vli('it tiii~e di~ yoi~r difficnlty with tlie Iiidians arise
A. About h'ilf-I)ast 10 o'clock, I should sly.
(? Ilow long was he with you?
~. About two hours.
~? After that trouble with the Iiidians lie was within your sight, aiid
could iiot have goiie down to the con~l to weigh aiiy more?
A. Yes, sir; lie ~`i5 at tlie agellQv, not at the corral.
(?.T!~e issue took place that afternoon?
~. Yes, sir.
(~.JJo you know how many he issued?
A. I do not know; some 300 or 400; something like that.  I a:n not
~tire of tlie i~umber.
Q. How long would it take to weigh 300 or 400?
A. lIe weighs them when the herd come in, not when lie issues them.
~? Sul)l)o5e he got a herd of 700 cattle that illorIlilig; suppose he
inade ni) his mind to issue 400 on that day. Now he has got 700 cattle
in that peli, and is going to issue 300 or 400; what is to prevent his
\%itt~~li~~ ~00 iii oiie pen aiid weighing them, and weighing the rest after
A. Iii the first place, here is his owii statement. The issue did not
coiiclude uiitil dark, and he started the next morning for Cheyenne.
"The cattle arnved that morning, and he weighed the most of them
that morning."
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q.This is a true copy of that voucher in the Second Auditor's Office,
oil page 26?
A.Yes, sir; you will find the original on file in the Office there of all
those documents.
By ~fr. HARRIS:
Q.Now, on the 27th page.  ~rl1at persons can we refer to for that?
A.I will give you some names in regard to that.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.I)o you know anything of the actual quantity of cattle delivered
on tlie 14th, except from the official report?
A.I saw them.  I saw every one issued from the corral to the Indians,
froiit tlie first to the last.  I came down with the agent, and he told me,
iii aiisw~r to questions about this cattle-issne, when it was comilig off,
aiid I went down to see it.  He said I must keep ii ear the corral, or I
would get shot.  The crier called out so many head for ~ed Cloud, for
instance, and they turned out a number of cattle.  There were l)erhaps
a thousand Iiidians on a side, placed in liiies, and when these cattle
came mulling down thes~ lines of Indians, the boys would shoot their
arrows into them and pursue them over the plaiii uiitil they killed them.
Then the squaws cut them up and took them to their lodges, aiid tiie
lii~les were taken to the traders to sell, where they get their aminunitlon, &c.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. N\~hat experience have you had in weighing cattle? 
40
A.~~eli, I ~vas brought up on a farm, and ain familiar with such
matters.
Q.llave you ever weighed cattle?
A.Yes, sir.  I have seeu them weighett.
(?. llave you ever had any practice ill the estimate of the weight of
cattle?
A.Yes, sir; I have, more or less. I havc been out ~Yest on some
six expeditions, and have bought cattle to eat from passing herds.
Q.Buy them by weight or estimate?
A.We would take out a steer and estimate his weight, and fix a
price npon it.
By Mr. FAuLKNi~R:
Q.You have no doubt about the quantity of cattle beiiig 701?
A.I do not say anything about that here. I state further ou that I
do not believe the correct number are given. I think this number is
fraudulent.
Q.You did not count them?
A.No, sir. Among these cattle tl~ere were many yearliiigs, and what
they call ~~5calawag5.~'
By Mr. llARnis:
Q.You give your estimate of their weight froin your own observation?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.And you say they weighed about 750 pounds?
A.Yes, sir. That is a large estimate.
By the CllMRMAN:
Q.You say this was a poor herd of Texas cattle.  llave you seen
many Texas cattle?
A.I have, hundreds of herds.
Q.And this you regnrded as a poor lot
A.The poorest lot I ever saw. Now, this was Noveiiiber, when the
grass had just begun to fail., and when tlie cattle should have been fat,
if ever.  You will see here that at this time, when cattle were fattened,
this was the poorest herd I saw.  Of course, whei~ the cold weather came
on they would keep failing, but you will find that tlie prices tlie Govern~iient }~aid for them were about the same right aloiig.  I have no doubt
the receipts were cooked up systematically.
By Mr. llARPIs:
(~. U1)011 that point of numbers, what evidence have you?
A.I give it farther on.
~~. ~Yhen you say y~~u think he did not receive as maiiy as lie certified to what evidence have you except your opiiiion?
A.I ~aw these frauds in weight, atid there, 011 page 27, I take up this
poiiit of number.
Q.Y~ou say you have equal reason to believe equal rascality is prac.
ticed iii poiiit of ii umber. That is iiot your l)ersoiial knowledge?
A.I have already stated in regai-d to this that I have information
about the seven head of cattle there at the agelicy. I h~ive iiiforiuatioii
from Saville and two other individuals.  I take that u}) aiid compare it
with the provisioii-returns, and whet you get tite provision-returi~s you
cati judge for yourselves.
O~. ~~ou say he should have bad on hand, by liis returns, four huiidred
aiid thirty head of cattle, whereas he only bad seven
A.Yes, sir. 
41
Q. So that you say there is a fraud of four hundred and twenty-three
head of cattle?
A. I do, and worse than that.  ~Vhen I mention tlie fact that he
gave his receipt to the contractor if his cattle did not weigh what he
charged the Government for them, there was another fraud.
Q. ~Tell, suppose they were III) to the standard.~
A. Suppose they actually weighed what he charged the Government,
then he was short four huiidred and twenty. three head.
Q. So that your theory is that, on the 11th of November, you claim
that the evidence already in supports the proposition that at least he
was short four hundred and twenty-three head of cattle; that he never
had them, in fact?
A. That is it substantially, in different words, but tlie same thing.
Now, if he gives the contractor a receipt for a great many more cattle,
in number, than he received absolutely, how does he account for it?  I
reply he claims to issue to a great iii any more Indians than were there,
and at times when they were not issued.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. You say he should Ii ave had 450,000 pounds.  Now, why should
he have had that amouiit?
A. The point is that wheii he begin a new quarter his books show lie
lias so many pounds of beef on ha'id, aiid whatever subsequently comes
ij' lie receipts for, and that a~lds to that, and taking out the amount he
claims to have issued shows what lie should have.
By the CllAIRMAN:
~? Now pass to this point of the staii~pediiig of cattle.  You will give
us tlie ii ames of other persoiis besides Louis i~eshaw that will give us
inforiiiatioii on that point?
A. I will; yes, sir.
(~.Now, did you ~ver iliquire iii to the matter of wheHier or not tlies~
cattle th(tt are taken u~i oil the returns of the ageiit, tnd which he carries 011 liis returns as being on hand, wheHier he gets credit otherwise
than by the issue of them? For iii stance, may iiot these cattle thit
have stinipeded be cattle taken up on his retnriis aiid credited to his
returiis as well?
A. Gattle that have not been takeii up?
(~.That have been takeii np, received, aii~1 accouiited for as in itis
1)OsACsSiOii and stampeded, how does lie get credit for them again?
~. I say on page 20, "Another fluitful source of frau~l in cattle at
tlie ~~ed Gloud agency is the system of staiiipeding, which appears to have
beeii liracticed there, at least since tlie I)reselit ageiit took charge."
Now, I will say here, the contr~ictor has a large herd on the Platte
I~iv&i-, 111(1 he soiiietiiiies had a licid oil tlie 1~uniiiiig ~N~~ter, forty or
fifty odd lilileS off. Now, you know how easy it is to stampede a herd
of Tcxiis C(~ttlC. A hail-storm may do it, or iii Iiidiaii may do it with a
blaiiket. Now, when hey are started, they ruii right back to tlie origi1 ial lie~d where they caine from. No~~, ~ heii (iii (i~& iit scuds dow ii to
tlie coiltractor for a certain number of cattle, as Saville did iii this case,
he tells hiin how niaiiy he wants; he sends dowii a niesseilger for so
Jnaily cattle. Now, tlie contractor gets otit suelt a iiuiiiber of those
&~attl~~, aiid they don' c ~-ant    to go. Thty ~ie dii~ ~11 u~) tlieie by for~e
l}y a lot of herders. ~Vhen they are stampeded, they go right back.
~Vlicn tli cy are driven up there, the agelit receives them and receipts
for theiii to the coiitractor, and ~hen the Goveriiiiient owns them.
(~.He has receii)ted for them, aiid, to make his account balaiice, lie
must take them up on his returns? 
42
A. Yes, sir.  Tlie Boslers get their receil)t fiom tlie agent, an&~, I ain
tol(l, get their money at ~Vashiugtoii.
Q. Now, the agent having received these cattle and taken them up
on his retnrii, if they are stampeded aii(~ duiveii back agaii), ho~~ does
the agent account for them ~
A. That is for hin~ to explain.  I know notliiiig about that.
Q. ~Iight not that acconiit for his apl)earii)g to have l~(),()OO pounds
of beef on ha~~d when he had o}ily seven head?
A. I do not know ai~ythiiig about that, sir.  This particular stampede
~~as in another (luarter of the year.  Yoii may tell whe~i you get his
provisioi~ -returns.  Now, about the Boslers, you caii get at tlie character
of these men fron~ cattle-men, wli ose names I will give you, aud who also
have a herd in Nebraska there.
By Mr. llARRIS:
(? ~Vliat is the explanatioii about this coi~tract of March 17, 1S75, by
which Paxton made a iiew contract for sui)l)lies for the i~ed Cloud
agency?
A. I l~ave the official copy of the second contract.  Now, the point in
regard to that is
Q. Are we to be furnished with that?'
A. Of course; that is one of tlie documents that will conic.  You
niust have all these contracts.  Now, you will notice the teruis of these
contracts.  This is part of each coiitract: "The Interior DeI)artment reserves to itself the right iii accepfiug any bid to add to that amount 25
per cent."  So that the cattle furnished nii~ler the first contract might
have been iiicreased, if necessary; but here is where I detect those large
frauds.  Now, this Paxtoti failed to niect liis contract; that is, he had
been cheating the C~overnment in tlie quantity and weight of tlie cattle.
Now, that was perfectly welt kiiowii to every one there, and commonly
talked about.
Q. Do you know it?
A. That is what I am trying to give you.  I say that that contract
was not carried out; and hence tlie boiidsinen shou~d l~ave been called
on to niake that~contract good.  I have given names of quite a number
of persons who have given iiiformatioii on that subject.
Q. N\~hat is your idea why it was that it became necessary to make
a private contract with Paxton for the delivery of beef at $3 per 100
pounds?
A. It was not necessary.  The previous contract, which had been violated, meiitioned a lower price.  If proposals had been advertised for
propeily, bids could have been obtained from hoiiest men at a less price
than under the p~vate contract.
Q. Do you mean that he furnished a lower quantity? It took 6,000,000
pounds gross weight of beef-cattle on tlie hoof to supply i~ed Cloud
agency.  Now, do you daim that the ageiit aiid coiitractor had daimed
that that amoniit was exhausted?
A. I cani~ot say.  The contract may have varied a little from that.
There is a certain nuniber of pounds iiained iii the ~oiitract, aiid here is
this evidence of frauds in receil)ting for iii ore cattle thaii ca~ne.  One
I)oint I make is, that that coiitract was not exl~austed.  Now, it states
in the coiitract that it ~as ex~~ressly stipuitted tl~at all beef offered for
acceptance under this coiitract shall be subject to a certain inspection,
and if iiot accordiiig to tlie terms of the contract, it shall l~e rejected.
The point I make here is that those cattle ought to have been rejected,
first, as to quality, and theii, wheii they did not come up to the standard
when inspected, the agent should have required the contractor to fur 
43
iiish a proper arnouiit of heef, or called npon the boiidsinen.  If they did
not fnriiish it, it was his duty to report it to the ~~ei)artn~ent, aud the
duty of the Departuient to call on that bond, not to give a iiew coittract
to the same n~an.
Q. Now, we will suppose the agent aiid contractor and inspector were
iii collusion.  Then the Departu~ent at Washiiigton, of course, would
not be iiivolved in the violation of t1~e contract?
A. I claini they should have kiiown that.  I would say that tlie man
1fl~11'~~~~ g the Department, if it was repeate~lly called to his atteiition
that a certain agelit was not discharging his duty, aiid that the Indians
were snffering, should see to it.
(~.~iy question is this: Assumiiig that the agent, inspector and
coiitractor had conspired to defraud the ~overninent and the 1i~dians
botti, it would not be presumed that they would send evideiice of their
frau~! to tlie 1)epartnieiit at ~Vashington. Now, if tlie Coinmissioiier,
supposing their reports to be true, aiid that there was not beef eiiotigh to
carry the Indians through the season, whether it would be illegal for
hiin to make a private contract?
A. I should say it would be illegal in this case, for the reason that 110
bids are to be accepted from persons detected of frauds, aiid a i)rivate
coiitract is worse.
(~.~Iy qnestioii assumes that he does not know there is fraud.
A. ~Vel1, that is a differeiit thiiig.  I know facts to the contrary.
Q. You charge the Commissioner with fraud.  I assume and say that
tlie Commissioner, to be guilty of fraud, must be aware of tlie facts
which you say existed, and I w ant now to follow that up, to see if I can
get at any evidence bearing upott that subject more than we have
already got.
A. I say on page 27, although this contract liad been violated ill all
its important features, and shameful frauds practiced in its fulfillment,
Commissioner Smith did not call on the bondsmen of the contractor for
satisfaction, as the law required him to do. That is the first point.
Q. That assumes that he knew all abont it.
A. N\~ell, I say he made a new contract privately, when he must have
known that he was merdy renewing a contract with Bosler.
(~.The point you make on the twentieth page is a different thiiig:
"Ttiis contract was illegal," &c.
A. Had he advertised for proposals then, the fact would have come
out, and the Government gained by it.
Q. ~Vhen was that contract made?
A. ~iarch 17, 1875.
(~.That would be a contract to carry out tlie supply until what
period ~
A. For the fiscal year.
Q. ~Tntil the end of June?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Of course, if these parties knew all about it, there would be fraud;
but suppose the suppLy fiom any cause falls short iii ~Iarch, is it iiot in
tlie power of the Comiuissioiier of Iiidian Affairs to supply those Indians,
eve ii if he niakes a private contract?
A. I think it would be very bad thing for the Commissioner to do,
lookiiig after the interests of the Government aiid the Indians.  If you
make a private contract you cannot get bids.  In the first place, you do
not get as low ~)rices as otherwise.  A private contract for Indian supplies is a matter of suspicion.
~L~- Is not the system of asking for bids a bad practice?
A. A fair competition, it seems to me, is the best that can be done. 
44
here is this contract given to Paxton without advertising, and I show
how this coiitract is carned out.
i~1r. SMITll. Su~pose I didn't know that these frauds were being perpcti~ated.
I)rofcssor ~IARsll. If you didn't know about these frauds beii~g perpetrated, I have nothing to say.  You certainly were told of them.
By Mr. llARRI~:
Q. That is the point I want.  I waiit to know the nanies of pcrsoiis
who can give this.
A. Yes, sir; I will give the names of the persons who reported these
frauds.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. No matter how much fraud might have been reI~orted to the Commissioner about cattle and other things; how do you connect that with
the making of the new contract ~
A. I would say, if there had beeii frauds in cattle by a perfectly wdlknowii man in his supplying cattle, that special precautions ought to
be taken, e specially if Paxton is proved to be the mere tool of the Boslers, a~ everybody there knew.
Q. llave you any information that the Com'nissioner knew who Paxton was, and what he was, or wli at relation he had with Bosler ~
A. I think lie must have known that fact, because the information of
the general state of affairs there-cattle and other things-had been
colning in in various ways.
Q. Can you give us any papers or any witnesses that can give us that
information?
A. Yes, sir; J think so.
Mr. HARRIS. You must see that a commissioii investigatilig as we are
cannot take a statement of what everybody knows, but must have something to trace it dowii to the actual facts.
~YITNL5S. I think I can give you that informatio'i.  I thii0k I can
show that the frauds nuder Paxton liad beeii takiiig pi ace all the time.
~fr. SMITH. Can you show that I knew it-?
~VITNE5S. ~V~ll, the information was given to your J)epartment.
You l~ave admitted that that agelit was wholly incompetent.  ~Vhat
more is required?
Mr. HARRIS. If you can show that that inforiiiatioii was give1i to the
I)cpartineiit-reasonable information-of course the Department is bound
to take notice of it.
Pro&ssor ~fAR5H. I make the charge of misliiaiiagemeiit aiid fraud
both.
J\Ir. SMITH. The professor states that so many reports have been
made to nie.  I will ask whether lie does iiot know that these reports
were inquired iiito, anti that a very strong oi~cial rel)ort was made to
me by persoiis that I liad a right to place confidence iii?
Professor MARSH. I hi tow the contrary of that.  Tlie repoit to which
the Commissioner refers was made by a special commission, sent out to
look into that agelicy, and answer the charges as they could.  The report
Mr. ~mith has just quoted was published, a~i~l lie kiiows perfectly well
that two or three of the members of that coiainissioii have come back
an~l given information that they were niistakeii oil points affectiiig the
mailagement of the agency.
~lr. SMITH. Thit is exactly what I do not know.
Professor i~fARSH. Then that is one of those thiiigs I am going to give 
45
yon iii regard to that report.  I say this was comii~unicated to the luterior Department.
~Ir. liARRIS. I think the professor slionid state wl~at he knows, and
tlie commissioi~ will give ~Ir. Smith as full aii opportni~ity to meet it as
1Ae is given to state it.
Professor ~IAR5ll. The parties who ma~1e those statements to the
Department were sent ont by the Department, and they afterward gave
inft~rmation to the Department touching L~~cd Cloud agency.
The CllAIRMAN. Is this information giveil iii the form of in official
report ~
Professor ~IARsll. They were official.  I wish to say now that some
of the members of Bishop liare's conin~issioii, which reported favorably
on the affairs of thc ~ed Cloud agency in April, 1874, gave additional
evidence oil the saiiie subject to the In tenor Department, slidwing all
unfavorable Stite of affairs at Ited Cloud agency.  I make the additional
statenient that two of those comulissioliers gave damaging testimony as
to the agent and the affairs of Bed Cloud agenQv to Coiiimissioner
Smith himself, or his Bureau.  This was before iny visit; hence lie cannot plead ignoralice.
Mr. liARRIS. I propose to ask you to give us the names of these men,
aiid let us get the iuformatioii from them.
A. Yes, sir; I will do so.
The CHAIRMAN. The next subject we have is that of l)ork.  Iii regard
to that matter this statement is very full.  It refers to ~I(ijor Burt, who
was present at the time of tlie issue of the pork whidi yon saw, and
your statement here as to the quality of it is eiitirely full, and I think
there is no ilecessity of going into that more fully.
Professor MARsH. The point I niade on the blankets applies here as
well.  ~Vhen this pork caine up, it was so bad that the agent himsdf
saw that it was iiot fit for food; an~l wheii the coiitractor caine up, I
nnderstan~l he told hini so, and he said, " ~~rell, never mind, I will
make it all ri~ht on the next lot," or something of that kind.  Now, the
n~onieiit you fail to hold those people up to the standard of the sample
accordiiig to which the purchase was made, then tlie fraud commences.
Now, that $21 a barrel ought to have got wholesome food is certain.
This pork was hon4ble.
Q. Did you call tlie agent's attention to the quality of the pork?
A. No, sir; the agent was off at Cheyeiine, and beibre be got back I
startc~l for Fort Laramie.  Now, these pieces of pork that were lyiiig
around in front of tlie warehouse, (that was in November-the 15th,)
which the Indiaiis threw a~ ay, it being so bad, wheii they so iiearly
starved in the winter they went arouiid and picked ill) those same rotten l)iec~s ot pork to sa~ e themselves fro in suffering.  Now, Bed Cloud,
wheii in ~Vashington, complained of this i)ork bitterly, and stated that
be thought sonic of the children bad died in conseqneiice of eating it.
There is a case where, it stnkcs ine, tlie bondsmen of Mr. Slavens should
be held responsible.  ~Ie is a coiitractor, getting contracts right along;
aiid I say that the Indian Bureau wlio bav  h        -~
should be held to it.,      e t is icspoiisibility oii them
By Mr. liARRIS:
Q. Now, there is something said about a report of that being made.
A. There is such a report there, made by tlie ageiit, and Mr. Smith
will doubtless give you a copy of it.
Q. The agent stopped this. 
46
A. Yes, sir; stopped this delivery of pork.  I do not know who it
was that I complained to about it, but I spoke of it, and that was the
last issue made of that pork. The ~gent stopped issuing it then, but
be told me in Washington that, subsequently, wheu they ran short of
provisions at his agency in the winter, he issued the rest of it.  When
he wrote to the Department, he mentioned that the Indians complained
of it, or something of that kind, and the contractor said he would make
it all right.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. Who did this contractor make the rein ark to that he would make it
all right ~
A. ~o the agent.  That pork-contract will be one of the contracts
that will come nuder your requisition.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Do the Indians like pork?
A. No, sir; I do not think they do.  I think it is a mistake to give
them pork.
By Mr. IlARRIS:
Q. How much flour was there in the warehouse at the time you
were there?
A. I could not say exactly.
Q. The flour was to be "fresh ground, of XX quality," &c.?
A. Yes, sir; that is copied right from the contract itself.
Q. It was to be in double sacks.  Now, you saw flour in single sacks
in the hands of Indian women, and you saw a considerable quantity in
the warehouse. Have you any idea how much?
A. Fifteen or twenty sacks, at least.  I do not know exactly.
Q. Were there any sacks there that you saw marked-branded as the
law requires?
A. I did not notice that.
Q. You state that you did not notice any brand, though some of them
may have had?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see any bread made by the Indians from this flour?
A. I did; not to examiue it closely. I did not eat it, but I saw it in the
lodges.
Q. Is there any of that flour now, that you know of, in existence?
A. I have a sample that Red Cloud gave us, and I have a sample of
the flour on which the coutract is based.  That is the only sample I
have obtained.
Mr. SMIl'H.  I have got the samples of the coffee, sugar, and
tobacco, and will satisfy the commission they are the original samples.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. The bid is made for the flour, &c., and the sample is furnished to
the Department with the bid?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The bid is accepted upon that sample; the contract is entered into,
and it is furnished as per sample?
A. Exactly.
Q. Now, then, it is fl~rnished and iiispected before it is turned over
to the Indian ageut?
A. It should be. 
47
Mr. SMITll. It is.
The CllAIRMAN. It is inspected upon the samp1~es, to see that it corresponds with the samples fnrnished ~
Mr. SMITll. Yes, sir.
Mr. HARRIS. N\There is it inspected ~
Mr. SMITll. At Cheyenne or at Omaha.
The CHAIR~iAN. Then is the Indian agelit fnrnished with the samples upon which the bid is made, so that he may see that the article
furnished is as per sample furnished?
Mr. SMLTH. I am not sure that was done last year. It is done this
year.
Professor MARSH. That is one point I want to call your attention tothat tlie Department neglected to furnish tlie agent with samples of some
things. Of some things he had samples, and some he had not. That
is what lie stated to Bishop llare.
Mr. HARRIS. Is the agent the inspector?
Professor MARSH. lle is of some things, but not of flour.
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; he is inspector of beef only, which is to be inspected there and cannot be anywhere else.
Professor MARSH. ~Vho is inspector of pork?
Mr. SMITH. Mr. Threlkeld, of Kansas City; appointed by Robert
Campbell, of the old board of commissioners. I think his initials are
T. K.
Tlie CHAIRMAN. He is inspector of pork and flour?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; if there is any there he inspects the flour.
Professor MARSH. Of the southern agencies, but not of the Red Cloud.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
~Ir. HARRIS. N\~ho is the inspector of flour at that agency?
Professor MARSH. In September Major Long came in, but the fiscat
year beg an in July; and there were two mouths in wbich this bad flour
came in.
Mr. HARRIS. Who was the inspector of flour from July to September?
Mr. SMITH. Barclay White, of Omaha, who was directed to inspect
that flour personally or by expert. I have no other inspector except
Barclay White and Majo~ Long at Cheyenne.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Your statement is that this lot of flour was not iiispected?
A. I state that I am informed that Doctor Irwin, ageI)t for the Shoshone ludians, who was then in Cheyenne, detected the bad quality of
ti~e flour, and telegraphed the Department that the flour was a fraud.
I suppose that will be one of the reports that will come in under your
requisition. Ageut Saville was at Cheyenne at that time, as I have
stated.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Do you know who this citizeii of Cheyenne is who is directed to
retain a sample of the flour?
A. I do, and I will give you his name confidentially; I thought
it was better not to mention it in the pamphlet. He aiid McCann are
the two leading Indian-ring men in Cheyenne, and it was generally
understood that he is a partner with McCann, sharing in certain matters, and also iuterested in quite a number of things there. Now, I
state Ilere.that Agent Saville says distinctly that his orders were from
the Department, from Commissioner Smith, to send that flour on to the
agency without further inspection than leaving a sample for subsequent
in sl)ection. 
48
Mr. SMITH. One single remark, and you will have it all. Not to receipt for the flour until the sample was compared with the sample given,
and found to be equal to the sample upon which the contract was based.
You will remember that I said nothing about Mr. Frei~ch. I directed a
competent man to be found to do it, and Mr. Saville found that man. I
had not the slightest knowledge of who the flour was left witl~ until
afterward.
By Mr. HARRIs:
Q. Who was this Dr. Irwin?
A. He is the agent of the Shoslione Indians. I will give y0u the
name of the man who has information of the character of the cattle that
were sent to Dr. Irwin, and his action in regard to it, iii trying to protect the rights of the Indians against these contractors.
Q. ~Vhere shall we find that communication of June 19 from Major
Long?
A. I have it.
Q. To whom is it addressed?
A. It is indirectly to me, through a friend of mine.
Q. Not a report to the Department?
A. No sir. I sent out to know about tlie matter, asking some questions of a man whom I knew could get to Major Long. My friend sent
this to Long, and he answered the inquiry ill his own handwriting.~
Q. Where is Major Long?
A. He is still at Cheyenne, or at Camp Carling, which is close to
Cheyenne.
The CHAIRMAN. Now we come to the sugar aiid coffee.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. You say the sugar was dark?
A. Yes, sir. I saw the sugar myself. Now, I went down to 82 White
street, here, and saw the samples from which the purchases for the
present fiscal year were made. That was a totally different sugar, and
one of the purchasing committee who examined this sample that Red
Cloud ga~e ine with a great deal of care said, "That is a very inferior
grade of sugar." It would have been impossible for him to have got
any such sugar at the agency ui~less it had been issued there.
Q. Do~not the traders keel) it?
A. Yes; I suppose they do.
Q. Coffee you did not see in bulk, but at one of the lodges; this was
inferior in quality. That probably is a rather intangible test?
A. I would say that, among the names I shall give you, you can make
inquiries about that sugar and coftbe, atid get specific information undoubtedly.
Q. Did you see any tobacco in the warehouse?
A. Not to examine it.
Q. Then all the tob.~cco you saw was in the hands of Indians?
A. I saw it at the tinie of issue. It was all dark color, and in large
plugs. This that Red Cloud brought us we broke open, and as we
broke it a dark viscous stuff came out o~f it. It was rotten and fearful
stuff.
Q. Who were the officers with you?
A. There were Colonel Mix and Lieutenant llay, certain; and I think
Major Burt, altl~ough I won't be sure about that.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Youi stat~ here that all the tobacco~you saw was of that character? 
49
A. Yes, sir, essentially tbe same.
Q. Did you ask aiJy of the other Indians besides i~ed Cloud ~
A. Ilaving once had our attention called to this, there was a big
laugh wheit they broke open this ping, and they called the others to
look at it; and after that, when they won id ask Indians for tobacco to
examiLle, we looked at i~.  I saw tobacco llsed by Red Cloud, Red Dog,
and ~Ian Afraid of ijis liorses; and in one of the councils I smoked
some of tlie tobacco.  This that I saw at this agency was of dark color.
I saw tlie other day the sample of the tobacco from which the 1)urchases
for this year were made, down at ~Vhite street, and it was of a light
color, aiid totally different iii character.
By i~Ir. SMITH:
Q. There were two kinds of tobacco purchased this year.  Did you
see both samples ~
A. I do not think I saw but one sample.  The first day Red Cloud
came dowi to diiie with me we had some good cigars, and gave him
so!i)e; and he said, "That's nice.  After s!iioking such vile tobacco as
we smoke here, it is a pleasure to get good tobacco."  So when the old
inan went away we~gave him some good tobacco.
By Mr. flAPPIS:
Q. Is there a~iy ftirth~r information you can give us about the to.
bacco ~
A. You caii ask of them at tlie agency wheii you are there.  Ask
those officers anti otht~r inen who know the quality of the tobacco issued
in the last fis~al year.  Possibly you may fiiid some in the warehouse of
that sort.
Q. Is there anything on the sul~ject of the suffenngs of the Indians ~
A. Yes, sir.  The iuforiiiation in regard to that you will get there at
the agency.  At the Spotted Tail agency I am iii formed the suffe~ng
was so great that there were quite a number of deaths in consequence
of th  want of food and clothing.  I will give you names of persons
that will testif~ iii regard to that.  This is particularly important about
Si)otte(l Tail's agency, because when he was in N\rashing~~~, and wanted
to make his cou~plaiiits, and started two or three tiuies to make them,
the Secretary of the Interior said iii substance: Stop right there.  I
don't w~nt to hear that now, but will give you a ebance anoth~r time.
Mi~. SMITH. lie di(l have a cliaiice, and was invited to come at any
time.  Several times a day was set for him to come and make his coinplaiiit about his agency.
Professor MARSH. I was about to say that Spotted Tail has a good
deal to tell about the suffering of his agency last winter.  Reliable meii
there have a great deal to tell about it, and it is very important that
uhey should be got at.  (i~eneral Bradley, who is in command of the
~1ack 11 ills distiict, is at Fort Lara~inie, and will, I think, be able to
~ive yo~~ a large amount of information on all these subjects.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. ~~e come now to the freight contracts.  You state facts ~n regard
0 the contracts, and those we will get from the contracts: "The dis auce of two hundred and twdve miles was well known to be largely in
~-xcess of the true distance, and yet no eft~~rt Seems to have been made
y the Interior Department to ascertain the correct distance, although
ts attention had been called to the subject in 1873."
Mr. SMITH. The Government has taken steps to measure that dist     4'P 
50
ance, and the only reason that it bas not been done is because the officer there has not done his duty.
Professor MARSH. I will say that the Land-Office is enga~ed in surveying that country, and the Interior Department could have had that
distaiice surveyed without the slightest trouble if they had so desired.
The difference in the freight in two weeks would have paid for the
sur'- ey.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. The contract of McCann for carrying freight is paid so much for
so in any miles?
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. SMITH. It was fixed by Corn missioner ~Talkerhirnself, and McCaun
was made to agree that a final settlement should be made upon an
actual measurement of that distance, and there it lies now. Any stateinent that the Interior Departrneiit has not i~iade any effort to get at
that distance is not true.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. llow do you establish the distaiice there yotirself?
A. I refrr you to the official survey of J. W. llammoiid, at Cheyenne.
Mr SMITH. The ~overnmeut is perfectly p~otected by contract in
this matter, as the agreement with McCai~n, by whidi he is paid for
transportation at so much per too pounds per mile, and the final settlement is to be based upon the actual distance, whenever that is found.
Proiessor MARSH. Dr. C. C. Cox, of ~Vashiugton, a special commissioner who went out there, wrote to the Secretary about that flour
niatter, but aiterward he speaks of the agent as a Christian gentleman
and the agency as an Arcadia, and all that.
My condusioii in regard to all this is, that the great difficulty in ascertaining the extent of these frauds, or making any investigation, is largely
due to the fact that the Interior Department has retained none of the
original samples of goods furnished to the Indians during the past fiscal
year, the except~on being flour.  The accounts of Ageiit Saville, as I understand, have not been hai~ded iii to tlie Second Auditor's Office, except
for the first or second quarter, since he was appointed.  If they were
there, you would then have the chance to know liow it stai~ds.
Mr. SMITH. Provided the Second Auditor has taken them up.  lle
has accouiits there that have been there for three years that have not
been taken up yet.
Professor MARSH. Now, those five special coniinissioners or other
officials, appointed aiid paid by the Departmeiit of the Iiiterior, had
personally investigated this agency before niy visit, ai~d given that Department iuforinatiou indicatiiig the bad state of affairs there.  A portion of the responsibility for the inferior goods and supplies purchased
last year should, perhaj~s. attach to Mes~rs. F. II. Smith,`V. J. Turney, and J. D. Lang, of the board of Indian comimssioners.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Now, let me understand it; they were the purchasin~)-.commit
tee~
A. Yes,sir.
Q. They purchased from s~mples?
A. Yes, exactly; but did iiot retain tlie samples; they made the contract.
-Q.`Vere not the samples turned over to the inspectors?
A. That may be. 
Q. If the pllrch'ising.committee hnd samples upon which they purebased, then, of cours~, thQV turned the sauJl~les over to tlie inspector,
who subsequently inspected the goods as delivered, and the inspector,
it seems to me, would be the person to have the samples.
A. If a person goes out to the agency and sees frauds that could be
detected by tlie sample, would he not naturally go to the Commissioner ~ I believe that the present year things are to be managed much
better than before.  llere are three men wl~o are called a "purchasing
committee," and wh~ with Co in missioner Smith, as I understand, make
these contracts for supplies. Is that so ~
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Professor MARSH. Now, the beef-contracts, the sugar, coffee, blank.
ets, &c., are made by those men on consultation with ~he Commissioner.
Mr. SMITH. The contracts are made by me.  The purchasing-commit.
tee advise on the purchases.
The CHAIRMAN. WIio appoint them ~
~1r. SMITH. They appoint their own commissioners.
Professor MARSH. Previous to last year the old board had a report
of the purchasiiig.committee, which told who made the purchases;
and I took up their report of last year, wishing to see about the purchases; so, I s~iy here, "made no report of their purchases, as the old
board had done." That I considered culpable iiegligence.
Mr. HARRIS. Is there aiiy law requiflug it?
Mr. SMITH. No, there is not.  In regard to these commissioners, the
board is made up by the President.  They are appointed and coin mis.
sioned by him. The President has given the noiniuation of the Indian
ageiits to religious societies; but lie has never given the nomiuation of
this board into the haiids of anybody.  1 am the officer to make the purchases.  That, by law, I do, under the advice of the board of Indian
comulissioners.  They niay send any man to me as their representative,
and they generally seiid the purchasing-committee
Mr. HARRIS. Don't you have the Assistant Secretary of the Interior
with yon?
Mr. SMITH. The Sccre~ary of the Interior is. generally represented
also.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Now, Professor Mar~h, there are one or two matters I would like
to inquire about; that i~, what you saw out there that struck you as
wrong about the i~ed Clouti agenQv you made known to the Depart.
meut when you returned here?
~. I made known to the President when I returned here, according
to my promise.  My promise to P~ed Cloud was to show the samples he
gave me to the Presideiit.
Q. That you did sooii`ifter your return?
A. No.  I got back in D~ceiiiben
(~. ~Yhat time was it that you first presented the thing to the Presilent?
A. 110 Apnl.
Q. ~Vhat time was it, theii, that you mentioned it to the Commisioiier of Indian Afflirs ~
A. At tlie same tinie.  I could iiot conveniently go to Washingtou
intil the National Academy of Scieiice met in Ai)ril, when I went there,
iid had a long talk with tlie I)resi~leiit.  I told hi iii, as I have others,
liat I did not vouch for these original samples.  What I meint was,
hat those particular specimens I~ud Cloud haiided me I had not fol 
52
lowed up and compared with the supplies in bulk, but L saw a great
many things mysdf, outside of that, which were much no ore important.
Q. All that you saw out there that you thought was wrong did you
detail to the President ~
A. I gave him the prominent points.
Q. N\~hat I meant to get at is, the time you went to Washington,
what you informed him of and then I understand you went and bad
a talk with the Commissioner~
A. I told the President much 110 ore tlian I did the Commissioner.  I
called on the latter first.
Q. Did you have much talk with the Commissioner ~
A. Very little.
Q. Showed him your samples?
A. I started to show them to him, but I thought lie didn't receive my
information very graciously, so I stopped.  I told the Commissioner
that I did not vouch for those particular sami)les; and wl~eu I showed
him the sample of tobacco he said, "Two years ago we had some rotten
tobacco and that is a sample of it."
Q. On the occasioii you went there, in April last, and showed him
these samples, did you call his attention to the wrongs out there on the
part of the Indian agent specially?
A. N\~hen I was there in 1873, at the time I was fitting out aoo expedition, the Commissioner gave me an interview, and as I came out he
told me if I saw anything wrong to tell him, and although I did not
think I was bound to furnish him these statements, I thought, as a matter of courtesy, I would give them to him; but, as I say, I did not think
he welcomed this information.
By Mr. llA~Ris:
Q. Now, suppose you give us the coiiversatiou between yourself and
the Secretary, where you say you did not l~ave any confidence in tlie
Secretary of the Interior?
A. Well, first about the Commissioner.  I came there with the samples; I mentioned to him that I had been out in that country; told him
about my visit tbere; my object, &c.; and then mentioned to him about
the samples that Red Cloud had given me; that I thought it proper to
bring them to his notice, and I showed him the flour, and he said, "We
had some bad flour a few years ago; so bad that the ponies wouldn't
eat it; and that is some of that bad flour."  lie said fliis right off as I
say it now.  Then in regard to the tobacco, he said, "We had some rotten tobacco a couple of years ago, and Red Cloud has given you some
of that tobacco."  And so with the others.  About the coflee, he looked
at that and mentioned something about there beiiig black beans in it.
Mr. SMITll. In the sample; I said there was black beans in the best
of coffee.
Professor MAR~sIT. Oh, no; he said, "Red Cloud has picked out the
black be~ns, and given them to you;" aiid so with the sugar, he said,
"That sugar has been wet," and so on.  Now I had seen the sugar aiid
flour issued there, and I had seen there something about the tobacco;
and when he told me that was tobacco issued two years before, I thought
to myself there was no use in going on with the subject; but I did go
on and say that that agent was not a man to be intrusted in that iinportant agency. I told him about tlie incompetence of the man; a man
unfit to be placed in charge of that most responsible agency in the whole
West.  Then I told him particularly about the annuity goods being
thrown out there iii one day in a snow-storm; an~l then I spoke about 
53
the beef, &c., and touched on the prominent points.  I don't remember
particularly what I said about the beef, bnt I remember speaking fully
of the incompetenQv of the agent, and the issue of the annuity goods;
bnt, as I say, I was not encouraged, and did not want to go into the
matter further.  I went away feeling that he had told ine in plain
terms that Red Cloud had deceived me, and that I really knew nothing
about the agenQ~, and for that very reason I did not give him onetwejitieth part of the information I had about it.
By the CllMRMAN:
Q. You were in ~Vashington at the time that Red Cloud and Sp~tted
Tail were there ~
A. Yes, sir. I will mention one other thing: that at the time I was
talking to the Commissioner there were two or three persons waiting,
and I felt that I ought not to take up his time, especially as my evideuce was not wanted.
Q. N\That time was it that the Indians were in N\ra5hing~~~~
A. It was in ~1ay.
Q. You were there at the time ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, about your interview with Secretary I)elano.
A. Yes, sir; I went on there in May.
Q. On tlie occasion you saw the President and showed him your samples, aiid saw the Coin missioner of Indian Affairs o
did not see Secretary Delai~o ~, n that occasion you
A. No, sir; I di(l not. I supposed the Commissioner of Indian Affairs
was the proper person to receive co!nplaints about Indian matters, and
I went first of all to him.
Q. You saw the Secretary of the Interior, theii, in May?
A. Yes, sir. I will state, when I came to ~Vashingtoii in May the Secretary was in Ohio 011 a vacation. The second or third day I was there
I cilled on the Acting Secretary of the, Interior, I mean General Cowen,
who was Acting Secretary.  I was in the Depat~tment several times and
talked tiie matter over with him, and my relations with him were very
pleasaii t.
Mr. SMrTll. Do you mean that that covered all the time; that he was
away all the time uiitil you saw him?
Professor MARsll. ~Vell, I was there a few days, then returned to New
~Itveii, ai~d afterward caine back; but as I ha~l talked this matter over
with tlie Actiiig Secretary, Getieral Cowen, and Coin missioner Smith, I
(lid iiot kiiow any reason why I should call on the Secretary especially.
I talked the matter over very fully wi~h (;eneral Cowen, who was tile
Secretary of the Interior at the time.  Then I saw Secretary Delano,
who was pointed out to me in one of the councils.  I ain quite confident
I did nOt see the Secretary of the Interior in the council, to know him,
more than twice before the time when they photographed the Indians.
Bishop lIare came to me that (lay, an~l said, "You have not called 011 the
Secretary, ind he wishes to see you." I said I would go up if he wished
to see me, aiid the bishop went up with me. ~Ye called on the Secretary
of the Ititerior, an~l he was not in his office.  I left iny card, and the
couiicil begaii a few minutes after that.  In that coi~ncil the Secretary
caiile across the room and spoke to me.  I told him I had called on him
with Bishop llare.  After the council I went with Mr. llinman, and
called the second time on the Secretary, he being out-leaving iny card
again. Then, afterward, when I was in the Indian Bureau, I think the
next day, the Secretary sent in a messenger, stating that he was in his 
54
room and would like to see me, and then I weiit in and had a long talk
with him.
By the CllM~MAN:
Q. That was in May?
A. No, sir; June 5. Then be asked me for joy iiiforination in regard to
the 1?ed Cloud agency; that was the first request I had from him for it.
lie asked me for it in a conversational way. I told him that when the
committee was appointed I understood they would call on me for information. and, when they did, I would give them spedflc information
in regard to the matter. Then he asked me to give it to him.  I told
him it was not ready  that I was going back to New liaven, and when
I got there, if he wished for this information before the committee was
appointed, if he would write to me, making a request for it, I would send
it to him.  He requested it orally, and, altb ough I did notdedine, Idid
not say I would give it to him alone.  Then lie made another request,
and I gave him some of the main points, stating them as I have given
them to you, and in few words, orally. But I told him that it was a
matter I must consider, as I bad not decided what I should do.  I told
him distinctly that, if this committee was appointed, I would give the
committee (as I had informed the Commissioner) this specific information. I told him I would think it over, and see him again before I left
town. I called a second time, and he was not there; but I told General
Cowen to tell the Secretary that, on thinking it over, I iiiust keep this
information myself; that he already had essentially the same information on file in the Department, bearing on the agency, and that this information, having been obtained by myself, I had not decided what I
should do with it.  ~Vhile we were talking, Secretary Delaiio returned
to his office, and I went there and had a long interview with him.  I
repeated what I had said to General Cowen, and also I stated that my
promise was to show the samples to the President, and I might possibly
decide to send my evidence to him. I might, perhaps, publish it separately, and might possibly wait until Congress caine together and give
it to Congress. I told him again that when the committee was appointed, then I stood ready to give them my information.  That is
almost the exact wording of it. Now, when I got Mr. Smith's letter
stating that the committee had been appointed, and requesting tlie information, I wrote a reply, in which I stated that I would immediately
proceed to prepare a detailed statement, and I went to work that night
to get it ready. That I have done, aiid that is the whole story.
Mr. SMITH. I would like to ask of Mr. Marsh if it is not due to me to
state that he has asked of me information freely, and has always got it.
Professor MARSH. The information I have asked, Lnd got of yon, I
have wntten and thanked you for.
Mr. SMITH. Have you not got all you asked for?
Professor MARSH. You have giveli iite freely ot the docuineiits there,
and I have copies of all our correspondence, of course.
Mr. SMITH. Have I not given you freely everything you have called
on me for?
Professor MARsH. I think you have all, or nearly all; but there is a
great deal I wanted that I did not get.  I do i~ot know whether you had
it in the Department or not.
By Mr. HARRIS:
~ Q. At any time when before Commissioner Smith, or General Cowen,
or Secretary Delano, did you suggest that iii your statement you would
be obliged to charge them directly with com~~licity iii these frauds? 
A. ~ do not think I did.  It was only when I ~ot my evidence together, and saw its full bearing that I thought it my duty to state plainly
what the facts in my possession indicated.  That I have tried to do impartially and withont favor to any one.
Q. Of course your concinsions are not so important to us as tlie facts
on which you base then; and as to stating to them, or either~of them
to tbe Secretary, for example, that you thought the Comr~iissioner was
implicated, or to the Conimissioner th~t you ~hought the Secretary was
implicated, that suggestion, as I understand, you did not make~
A. No sir; of course I di(l not.
Q. If Secret~ry Delano wis anxious, as he appeared to be, to detect
and ferret out fraud, if that was really his purpose, was not it perfectly
coiisistent with that idea for him to ask for that informafion, that he
n~iglit jojii you in bnnging these men to justice~ If he was honest iii
this, was it not proper for him to seek to join you in the detection of this
fraud, and`night he not properly have said, "Do not make this charge
against ine in ti~e newspapers, but give me a diance to show these pee
ple aiid the country that I ain after these rascals as much as you ~~~~~~
A. I simply judged of the man a~ I met him. I did not believe he was
sincere.
For example: I had been warned not to hold any conversation with
the Secretary about the matters iii dispute, except in ~~resence of a
witness of my owii choosing.  For this reason I asked Bishop Ilare to
go with ine when I first called on the Secretary, and found him out. I
asked the Rev. Mr. Hinman to accompany ine the second time, but the
Secretary was not in his office. ~Vhen the Secretary sent his messenger
to me iii the Indian Bureau, June 5, 1 had no one with me, and hence
went alone. On entering his office Secretary Delano iiitroduced General
Eato~i, of tlie Bureau of Educafion, and said that the General was there
by the merest accident, as he had expected to meet me alone.  As he
repeated this stateineiit three or four times during the conversation
which ensued, it made ine suspect that General Eaton's presence was
not purely an accident, and lily suspicion on this poiiit has been
strengthened by subsequent even ts.
Seuretary Delaiio began the conversation by S~yin~ to me that he
was sorry 1 did not know him better; that if I knew him as well as
General Eatoii did, I would know that he was "a Christian, a gentle.
man, and not a thief~" I was surprised at this openiiig remark, but as
he repeated it several times subsequendy, I supposed it was a favorite
formula of Ii is.  lie i~ext said that he understood that I, too, was "a
Christian gentlemaii," and therefore he felt confident that we had only
to tinderstand each other perfectly, and then we, as Christian gentlemen, could settle this little matter entirely between ourselves, outside
the newspapers atid without aiiy publicity.  lie expressed great regret
that I had not come t() liim first of all before going to the Presideiit, and showed much irritation against the Postmaster General for
going with me t~ tlie President when I fulfilled my promise to Red
Cloud.  I replied that it was only justice to the Postmaster-General
to S'i~ that he was in no w~y respoiisible for my visit to the
Presi~1eiit; that I had becon~e acquainted with the President while
he was General of the Army, and that I certainly should have called the
next day and given him Red Cloud's message in person, without the intervention uf any one.  Secretary Delaiio then informed me that he had
bad great experience in public life, was sixty-five years of age, and had
especially devot~d hims~lf to tb~ ludian qu~stion, aiid fl~erefore that I
bad better place the matter entirely in his bands.  That as a scientific 
56
man I could know but little of Indian matters, and that I h~d probably
been influenced by the younger officers of ti~e Army, who wished to have
Indi~n affairs iii their charge.  I replied that during my various expeditions in the ~Vest, in the last six years, I had had opportunities to
ascertain a great deal about tlie actual state of Indian affairs and had
seen most of the principal tribes between the Missouri Rivei' and the
Pacific coast.  llence my opinion was not derived froin Army officers,
but from observation.  I said that I saw a bad state of affairs at Red
Cloud agency last November, indicatiiig gross mismanagement, ai~d
that I had given information of this to the Commis~ioner of Indiau
Affairs, as well as others.  lle said I ought not to have made the matter
public; that I ought not to ii ave interfered iii Indian matteis, but
shonld stick to science; that it was nuworthy of my positiou to be
pickii~g flaws in his Department. I replied that I considered myself the
best jndge of what it wa proper for me to do, and that, as a citizen, I
bad a right to complain of any abuses whidi I saw in any departmeiit;
that the question with me was not a personal one; it was simply what
was the state of affairs at Red Cloud agency in November last; if he
wished to ascertain the whole trnth about that matter, I would do all I
could to aid him.  I began to state what I saw there, when he stopped
me, aiid said he did not care to discuss the details, a~~d again urged me
to give him a written statement of all my information on tl~e subject.
I replied that he had appointed a commission to investigate this matter,
and when they are ready to act I would put my iniorination in their
liands.  ile then urged me to give it to hi in, and I replied that I would
consider the matter, and see liim again.  After this interview was over,
General Eaton followed me down the corridor of the Department, and
nrged nie strongly to give the Secretary my information, ai~d to aHange
the matter between onrselves.
In my second interview with the Secretar~', June 8th, he repeated
many of his former statements, and urged me to give hiiu alone all
~ny facts, aiid especjaliy to make nothing public.  I replied that I
must carefully cotisider tit at matter.  He then turned on me fiercely,
and remarked, "Then you waitt to fight me, do yoti? If you do, you will
regret it." I re~lied that I had 1)0 wish to do anytliiiig of tlte kind, but
only ~lesired that the abuses I had seen should be stopped, and preveiited in fi~ture.  He then apologized for his previous remark, and, by
flattery and earnest appeals to me as a Christian gentleman. urged me
to tell him all I knew about the matters we were discussing. His closing
remark was as follows: "If you are a praying mait, Mr. Marsh, as I
hope you tire, I beg you will take home this one thought atid pray over
it: whether it is right for you to be ittterfering with iny Department,
when you ought rather to aid me ii) tlie great work of christianizing
and civiliziiig these 300,000 wards of the nation."  He added: "Keep
away froin the newspaper mcii, and all will be well."  His evident desire
to keel) the facts from the public, and his attempts to influence ine to
aid him iii this, made me doubt his silicerity tlteit, and hence I did not
vgie iny iiiforuiation to hint alone.
The point I make with hint is this: I have got this evidence myself itidependently.  You have had commissioners there, time atid
agaiii, to look into the affairs of the R~d Cloud ageuLy.  You have inforititition in regard to these frauds in your Department.  You have
nQt acted upon that.  The informafion is there, and affairs ii ave not
beeii improved.  The very last inforiuatiou from  Red Cloud agency is
that the Iiidiaus are sufferitig from want of food, and that, I claini,
is the result partly of fraud aid partly of mismanagement; the agent 
57
b~ii~g corrupt, directly ill collusion with the contractors, and the n~oney
that Congress appropriates, which would be sufficient, honestly expended,
to keep these people from suffering, failii~g of its purpose by fraud.
There is oiie statement I wish to go on record: that this case 1 have
presei~te~l here and explained, when you come to examine witnesses in
the NVest iii regard to these ten specific poiiits which 1`i~ake, if there
is aiiy one of these points that is not proven, in consequence of the
witnesses I have named not being found, or any other reason, I ask the
privil~ge, and dai~n it as a right, to give you additional evidezice on
that poilit. I thiijk I can give you witnesses enough to cover every one
of these points and fully prove all I have stated.
The CHAIRMAN. ~~hen we are through, it the professor desires to
look over the evidence, and thinks there is not sufficient on ally particular point, he can give it to us.
WASllIN~TON, D. C., Thursday, September 9, 1875.
Presetit: lloi'. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman; lloii. B. W. lIARRIS, lloii. CHARLES J. FAULKNER, and Profrssor (i'EORGE W. ATHERTON.
Professor ~IARSH ap~eared before the colj)'nission and said:
~~Ir. CHAIRMAN: In addition to what the commission may desire to
have me say about special matters relating to the investigation, I have
a short statement to make of a somewhat personal character, which I
regard as i!nportaiit; and I desire to make it at such time as the cornmission is disposed to hear it. It affects the Commissio'0 as well a.~
myself, ai~d I should prefer to give it 110'v~ but will most cl~eerfi~lly cornply with the wishes of tl~e coinmissioli.
The CuAi~~~~. Certainly, we will be glad to hear it.
Professor i~IAHSH. ~fr. Chairman. Since I met tlie commission iii New
Yoi~k, and frankly laid before you my evi~lence in regard to affairs at
i?e~l Cloud agency, I have kept peifeetly quiet, ana i)ublished nothing
oli tlie subject, directly or indirectly, consideriiig tlie case iii your hau~ls,
an~l`~Waiting with perfi~ct confidence tlie result of your investigation.
The Interior Departuient, however, has not done this, but from the
vei-y first has kept tip a constant attack upon me on accouiit of the matters i)laue~l in ~ our bands to investigate. Not only has this Departinezit printed, for the instruction of the commission, a pamphlet which
l)nrports to give the history of my charges, but it has also inspired and
dictated the dispatches and letters of certain ~~ashingtoii correspond.
ent~, and afterward caused them to be reprinted and distributed at the
public expense.
If tl~ese various publications, thus distributed to the country, and
placed iii the hands of the commission, merely contained argunients
aiid ap~~eals I should have taken no notice of them; butl am prepared
to show (with a few minutes' iiidulgence of tlie commissioii) that each
of ti~ese j~ublications, thus sent forth from the Interior Department,
Contaiiis f~ross aiid willful falsehoods.
The fiCt of such fitlsehood in documeiits thus prepared and circulated
~iot inerely~affects the character of high officials, but directly concerns
Lhe work of this commissioli, inasmuch as it shows the spirit in whick
~`he Iiiterior Department and Indian Office receive information of Indian
irauds aiid the methods to which they resorted to deceive bdth the
ornii)lsslon and the public.
I have deliberately chosen the word falsehood, as in this statement 
5S
I propose to call things by tbeir right iiaines. I an~ willing to i)C condeinned for such barsh laiignage unless I caii clearly show so n~any aiid
gross misstatements of fitcts within the knowledge of the Interior Departn~ent as to pnt it bQyoiid the doubt of any reasonable man that
deception was intended. L~oth the commission aii~ tlie i)nblic have been
the snbjects of this deception on tlie part of the Interior Department
and mai)y of the fl~lselioods of which I conij~lain have been brotight
to the attentioii of the Com~nission by tlie Secretary ot the Iiiterior
himself.
To come to the pnbiicatio~is of which I con~j~laiii: If tlie coin mission
will allow me, I will first, however, refer t~a~~k to the dispatch dictated
by Commissioner Sniith to tlie agelit of tlie Associated I'ress last }\Iay,
abont beef-cattle at Red Cloud ageilcy, and which I quote in iny published
statenient, (p. 22.)  This disi)atch, as I show, coiitains four sel)arate
falsehoods, aii~l its ol~ject was to destroy tlie eflect on tlie public of General Bra~lley's certifleate.  Another equally characteristic dispatch of
the Actiiig Coiniiiissioiier, in regard to flour, I qnote 011 page 33 of
my statenient.  This dispatch coiitaiiis two distiiiet false statemei~ts
as the evidence now in yonr liossessioli from ~laj. A. J~. Long and
others clearly shows, viz, that all tlie flour seiit to I~C(I Cloud agency
was iiot inspected by ~Iajor Long; aii~l, seeoiidly, that pait of the
flonr lie rejected was afterward seiit there. The latter dispatch was
published as a reply to iiiy first presentation o~ the sul~ject to the President, and is a fair sample of all the attempts at defense that have since
been issued by the Department, whether over the sigliature of the Secretary of tlie Interior or through sonic facile tool.
The doenments issued by the Interior Departmeiit since the comiiiission began its labors have b~en so nuinerons that I caii only refer to a
few of them; and out of deference to tlie high positioii of its acknowledged author, I will first take up tlie official pamphlet, "rrinted jor
tite itse oJ' t!t.e investig~tiug con~n~tttec," an~l with which you are all, of
conrse, fitmiliar.  A very small portioli of this pamphlet relates to tlie
present investigation, and this part alone I now propose to discuss. In
this portioii, addressed especi'illy to the commission, there is hardly a
sentence that does iiot coiitaiii a misrepreseiitatioii, and iii one of the
letters from Secretary Delaiio himself to the coinniission, for your instrnction, there are at least three distiiict falsehoods~oii a ~iiig\e~page.
A m on~ the more important false statements in this official pamphlet
are the following:
I. That I was not tlie~author of my cliarg
ten or directly in spired iii tiie New York r ~~es, but {hat they were writ                                 Itibune office.
This statement, which is reiterated in various forms and iii different
parts of the pam~~hlet, aiid other documeiits to which I shall refer, I
~roi)ounce absolutely false. ~Iy statement was wiitten by niysel{ aloiie,
in ~ew ilaven, and there printed. No person connected with the
Tribniie or any otlier pa~)er even saw it iiiitil it was in print.
11. That iny stat~~meiit was i)ublislied iii the Tribune before being
seiit to the President.  (Pamphlet, p. 6.)
This assertion, also, is wholly false. ~1y stateiiient was finished July
10, aiid it was my inteiitioii to have takeii it to tlie President on that
day, but having ascertained that hc ~~~~s jttseiit at Cape ~Iay,I awaited
his retnrii until tlie 13th, and then started to present it in ~iefson, but
uncertaili whethei lic had ie~ill~ returiied, I iiiailed it to him from ~ew
~~ork, so as to reach Loiig Branch that afterii~on.  Subsequently, but
the same day, I gave col)ies of tlie p aLi lililet at tlie same tini e to the
only two New York papers that lia~1 asked for it, iiamely, the Tribuiie 
59
aiid L~~~ening Post; b'~t no part of the document was pnblisiied by either
of these i~ai~ers llfltil hext day.  llaving ascertained defln~tely on the
14th tlk~t the Presid~nt had retnrned to Long Branch, I went there an(t
called oji hi in the same evening, to exi)lain to hiin my statement more
fully, ai~d to state why I had iiot brought it iii person. I would say here
tl~at iij none of the three interviews which I l~ave had with the Presideiit oii Indian affairs has the Secretary of the Iiiterior been meiitioned.
Ileiice, the statement that the Presideiit told ine to go to Secretary
Delniio with my complaints is totally false.
III. That I did not make my first complaint to the Iiiterior Depart.
iiien t.
This statement, so often repeated by tlie Department, is false.  I
welit tiust of all to tlie Iiiterior Department on the 23d of April, aii~I
niade coii)plaint to the Coin missioner of Indian Affairs, whoni I then
regaided, and still regard, as the pro~~er persoii to receive snch inforniatioii.  lIow unwelcon~e the facts I preseiited were, aiid how niicivilly
received, I have already stated before the commission.  My promise to
1~ed Cloud to carry his message to tlie Great Father, I fulfilled the next
day  aiid iny reception by the President was in mai~ked contrast to that
giveil me at the Department, to which I liad goiie as a matter of courtesy oiily.
Wiieii I was next in ~Yashington in May last, I again calleil on the
Coiiiiiiissioner of Indian Affairs, and also npoii the Acting Se~~retary of
tlie Iiiterior, General Cowen, the honorable Secretary himself being in
Ohio.  During his absence, I saw General Cowen several times about
Indian matters. lie treated me courteously, and iiivited inc to attend
the couiicils with the ~ionx delegations, then iii VVashiiigtoii, aiid on
one occasion, when a conference was h&d without public notice, lie took
especial pains to send inc his wntten iuvitation.  lience, the statement
iii this ofticial paniphiet (p. 5) that I went nuinvited is niitrue.
IV. The stateineiit in Secretary Delaiio's letter to the Coinuiissioner
(p. 7) that I dedined his personal request to furnish statenieiits of my
charges.
This is as false as his previons statements, and it is at oiice disproved
by his own witness, Geiieral Baton, who, in speakiiig of inc iii liis account of my interview with Secretary Delano, says: " lIe said tha the
bad iiot put them  in shape, but would do it," (p. 7.)  Commissioner
Smith also reflites this fitlsehoo~l of the Secretary; for he SQyS, oii the
same sul~ject "To this ic q nest Professor Marsh has not yet responded,
nor has he declined it," (1). 19.)
Secretary Delano knows ~)erfectly well that I told hiin several times
during our interviews that whenever the commission of iiivestigation
was ready to act, I would lay before them a statemeiit einbodyiiig my
specific charges, and this, geiitlemen of tlie commission, ~ou know I did
at tlie first hour of your organization.
N~. The statement (painphlet,~p. 8) tha~t I have made no coinmuiiication to the Coin missioner of Iiidiaii Aflairs in reply to his letter of July
1, (p. 9,) requesting a stateniei~t of specific~charges with evidence.
This is a willft~l falsehood.  My reply, given oil p;ige 11 of iii~ statemeiit, was written July ~, and I inaile~l it inyselfl  Th1Ioreover, f~llowincr
the exam pIe of     -..
S~cretai~ Delai~o ~iid Commissionci Smith in tltcir cornmunicatioiTh concerning inyse}f, I gavL the let{er to the Associated Press
an~l Aineiican Press \ssociations for public;~tion, and it al}peared
l)roinl)tly iii all the prominent papers.  I likewise transmitted this letter
lii my St~teinynt to both tlie Secretary, of the Interior aiid the Cominissioner of Iiidiaii Aftairs, and that tlie ~or mer duly received it is admitted 
GO
by lijIll in bis letter to yon of Jiily 20, (p. 7,) which was written two
weeks before the pamphlet coiltaining this falsehood was priiited. ~1oreover, tl~e saille doentue~it was trai'sii~itted to hini by the I~resi&lent,
July 17).
N~I. Tlie stateineiit of tlie Sueretary, iii liis letter to yoa of Jnly 20,
(p. 8,) that his eiitire iiitereoarse ~vith ~ne ~I5 tlie buiet e~)n~ersation in
tlie Iiidiaii coniicfl, and the ititerview at which ~eijeral Lato;~ was preseiit, is iiot only untrne, bat does iue great iIjUi5tiCC.
I called on the Secretary, with Bishop ~Iare Jniie 4' before the coancii, ant~, the Secretary being absent, left niy card.  This fact I stated to
hija in the COulleil wheii he addresse~l me.  ~Ioreover, on June S, three
days after the interview at which ~eueral Eato~ was preseiit, I had
another long and important interview with Secretary 1)elaiio, which, for
some reason, he now ignores.  l~~efore this last iiiterview I hid already
called, and finding him out, liad left an important message for him with
(jei~eral Cowen.
In this ofh'cial panil)lilet there are in ally other false statements which
I have inarke~, which I will not now weary yon with qnoting in detail.
There is one statemeiit, however, oil page 6, that I caiinot pass over,
namely: that redectiug oli the sources of the iiiforniation on which my
charges are based.  In reply to this, I have only to say that you genticinen are the best judges of the character and disinterestedness of the
~~itnesses whose iiaiues I have given you ~o snbstai~tiate niy own
observations.
The iiext document to which I will call your atteiition is i~uportant as
being one of a sei4es, to tlie coi~tinued aiid wide disti'ibutioii of which
the machinery of the Iiiterior Department lias been directed since the
case was placed ill your haii~ls.  I su~~pose they have been duly tra~~sinitted to the comniission.  ~Iowevcr this inay be, they h'ive bee ii sent to
nearly all tlie papers of tlie coulitry, religious ai~d secular.  The false
statements to which I have alrea~ly called your atteiitioii iii tile ofil-cial
pamphlet are here repeated with maily variations, but evideiitly I)roceeding from a comnooio source.
This particular documeiit, which may be takeii as a fair sample of this
series as to truthfulness, I have go~od reasoii to believe was prepared iii
tlie Ii~teriorDepartmeiit.  It was first published iii tlie Iiiter-Ocean, of
Chie.~go, July 27, and republished ill the ~~~ashiugtoii Chronicle, July
31.  It was theii reprinted in separate form  froiii tlie Cliroiiicle type,
and distributed by tloe Department at public exl)ellse.
The oiily point in this docuineiit that I care now to meiltioii is a fii~se
charge of l~reach of con [`deuce, when I was iiivited to al)pear befi~re the
L~oard of liodian Commissioners iii New York.  ~Iy invitatioil, ~hich I
ictain, came floiii Ceneral Fisk, the chairman, to meet tlie board April
28.  It coiitaincd no iiltiinatioii that the illeetilig was to be a private
one, and I liad no reason to believe that such was iiiten~led. I invited
a liai~ aid l)i'ofessor, iiitereste~l iii the sul~ject, to accompany inc, but
as lie could not join inc, I took with ine ailo~li?r frieiid, whom I inet at
the 1 otel oli my w'iy to tlie meetiiig, and wlio is tlie scieiitiflc editor of
the Tribune.  ile is iiot a short-hand reporter, aiid took- ilo iiotes of the
meeting`V hatev er, snpl)osing that tlie bOird`V ould i)ublisli aii account
the iiext day, as it had done of other niectings.  Seeing ii? report iii the
iiext day's papers, and tliiiikiiig`ii~ ieiilai ks of sufficient iniportance, he
nia~le an abstract from memory, and they appeare~l iii the Tribune of
April 30.  No objecti oil whatever, was made at the time to the ad mis
si()u of my frieiid, and those given iii the docuiiieiit from  which I now
quote are wholly imagiliary.  The chairnian of the Board of Indian Com 
61
n~issioners, ~enerai Fisk, lias silice iiiforin~d ine that there was ~o objection to tlie i~nblication of this report, aiid its trutlifi~lness h(l5 not
bceii questionc(i.
Tlie olily other O')C of these 5efl~i-Oflici'i1 publicatioiis wbich I will 110W
iiotice is a letter which ~ppeared iii the I~r~~videiice Jot~irnal, Ju~ly 16,
(`hid 500fl after ~(`i5 republished (`~IId widely circulated through tlie san~e
Cli(~I1iiCl5 as the documents I have alre'~dy ii) en tiOlled.  This evideiitly
w~s writteii by a frjeii~1 of Coinuiis~ioiier Smith, iii liis behalf, aiid a
eo~~y ~r the reprint, which I now exhibit, was seiit to iiie, with insulting
(`iIi1i0t(it~O1)5 by a Government ofticial iii ~~~`tsliiiigtou, whose idelltity
is fully established.  Iii this docuu~ent C'oiniiiissioiier Si~ith's friend
endeavors to l~~.y hiin a high comi)liuleiit, aii(l to dis~~arnge i~ie, by a fic
titious ~lesci'iptiou of ttie Coiniiiis~ioi~er at a certaiii ineetilig of the
J~~onrd of Indi'~n Coniiiiissioiiers iii New York.  The trnth!uliiess of this
documeiit inay l~e judged from the fact tilit oil tlie occasion iiained
Coiiiioi~sioi~er Smith ~`i5 ilot I)reseut, so tll('it tlie sceile desCribe(l was
~imply a figineilt of the writer's in0agiiiatioi~. Nevertheless, the Iiiterior
I~epartineut deemed such statements of sufhcieiit ililportance to ret)riut,
(~Ud widely distributed them.
Iii conclusion, the question naturally arises, ~Vhat is the object of all
these publications?  ~iost certaiiily to mislead you aiid the public, aiid
iiifluence both ngainst me for having made know ii matters unfavorable
to the Ifldi'ln service.  The Iiiterior l)epartineiit aiid Indian Bureau
have pursued a sin~ilar course from the time I first complained of misman~geiueiit in Indiaii affairs.  It is carrying out the policy, long contiii ned, of ineetilig evideiice agailist that Dep~~rtmeiit by misrepresentatitiii anti f(ilSChOOd.  Compare~l with these, discourtesy and incivility
are such smalt matters tltat I have forboriie to trouble tlie commission
with the detnils of what I was subjected t() by tlie Secretary of the Interior and Commissioner of Jndiau Affairs, btit justice to all concerned
demands that I at least say to ~on that long before my statement was
l)iesented, " lieu I ~~a~ endeavoring t() ascertaiii the true state of Indian
aff.(.iirs, I was repeatedly treated with indigiiity by both these officials
iii their own offices.
Is it strange that nuder the circnmstai~ces I should doubt tlie sincerity of Secretary Delano and C0~mmi&~s{\)ner,Siiiith, wheii th~r\ publi~l~ annoniite, a~ i~ done in the Comnii~sionei ~ letter to inc, ~" Iliat it
is the siiicere wish and purpose of tli e D ep.irtmeiit to I)reveiit frauds as
tar as l)oSSible2 aiid to omit i~o effi~rt t() discover them  whet perpetrated?   I think the result fully justities ilie iii so doiiig.  If hot, I
desire to call tlie attentioii of the commissioii to evideiice sliowilig tlie
sni~pressioii of previous informatioii condeiiiiiat~~i.y of aflairs at the
Sioux agencies.  The reports made by ~Iessrs. Hosmer, Bevier, Alvord,
aiid others are on file in the 1)ep;irtuient, and I trust tlie commission
will obtaiii them, nud also call these geittleineit before theiii, n 11(1 eli~'it
from them the additional information Whi('h tli ey g~ve Orilly to tlie In
terior I)epartn~eiit, aiid of which iio record reiiiniiis.
Tlieic is abuiidaiit evidetice fron~ these sources sl io\viiig tlie kiiowle~Lge ot tlii~ 1~ei)artmeii t of inisuianagenieiit aiid tran~1 iii tlie l)ast at tite
J~(~d Cl()tld ugency.  ~Vhether the inismanageinciit and flaud still exist,
tlie ( ouimissioii cati best decide. 
~YA5H1NGToN, D. (j~., AIo~~(?ay, ~eptembcr 13, 1875.
Preseiit: lloii. THOMAS C. FLETellER, chairinaii; lion. B. ~V. llARRIS, Pro!essor GEoRGE N\~. ATHERToN, an~l lion. CHARLES J. FAULKNER.
~Ir. J. N\~. BoSLER was also present.
Profrssor IMARsH was recalled.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. There are some tliiiigs about which I desire to inquire
of you, Professor i~Iarsh.  Oii the first page of your letter to the Presidei)t you state, " 1st. I have no confidence whatever in the sincerity
of the Secretary of the Interior or the Coin missioner of Indiau Affairs,
wheu they publicly annouiice their wish and determiiiatioii to correct
the present abuses in Indian mallagemeut, because I have reason to
know that they have long been aware of these abuses, and have made
iio sincere effort to reform them." Now, do you mean by that to charge
theiu with ne~ect of duty in their official stations ~
Answer. ~7hat I regard as neglect of duty.
Q. ~ow, next you say, "2d. Iii all my iiitercourse with these two officials their object has manifestly been to fliid out, not so much what tlie
frauds actually were, as the extent of niy information concerning them,
so as to preveiit, by every means iii their power, all publicity or ex~~osure
of them."  Now, do you mean by that to charge them with complicity iu
the~e frauds, or a desire to cover them up, so as to prevent blame attaching to them for neglect of duty ~
A. I state in that sentence as clearly as I am able to pnt it the results
of my intercourse with the two officials named.
Q. But wheii you say that their object seemed to be to preveiit, by
every means iu their power, all publicity or ex~~osure of these frauds,
you mean that their object was to do that for wh'~t purpose ~
A. I do not allude to the motives, I state the fact.
Q. Then you mean only to charge that it was their object to prevent
publicity of these charges of fraud in the Indian inaliagemelit?
A. That was clearly one object.  N\~hether there was aiiything else
that was manifested I cannot say.
By ~[r. HARRIS:
Q. Do you mean to imply, or did you intend to iniply, that they were
goveriied by corrupt motives?
A. That is a (lifficult question to answer.  I said nothiug in that senteiice that touches that point.  I mention a fact, the result of my experi(~iice with those officials.
(?.I oiily want to get at your own opinioii of tlie effect of the langii;1~e.  I~o you iiot think that that seiiteiicejiist read by the chairman
w~~uld convey to the miiid of the person rea(liug it the idea that those
officials were themselves eiigage~l or were participants in fraud which
they wished to conceal, aiid if you do think so, will you say whether
yoii i~illy inteiided to convey that idea or something less criminal?
A. ~Iy object in writing that sentence as it is was to. give a reason
clearly for not puttilig niy informatioii iii the haiids of tlie Department
alone, aiid I think the reason is clearly giveil in the language stated.
By Mr. HARRIS:
~Q. You say yon have every reason to know?
Ttte CHAiRMAN. No; lie s;iys previously that their oJiject was not so
niucli to learn what ttie frau~ls actually were, as to learii tlie exteiit of'
his information concerililig them, with a view to prevelit their publicity. 
63
No\V, (to Profi~ssor ~Iarsh,) I have been at a loss to know whether you
110Ctil t~y that ti)'it th~v were trying, from corrupt rnotive~, to cover up
these frauds-to hide t!ietn fro'n the publie-or whether they were trying to I)revelit t!ie i)nblic le~rnillg of them, with a view to maintaji' their
rCl)ut'~tiOn beibre the pi~blic for ineu of C'~j)aCity in the ~~aii'~gen~Cflt
of business, or what.  \Vhat was designed by it has been the difficulty
in n~y u~ind; heiice it was ti~at, in a C')rd which I had occasion to write,
I ised the term "iilsinuation,"`ibout which there has been a good deal
sai~l since.  It does iiot convey to niy znitid clearly a charge.
N\~ITNEss. It states a fact.
By the CllAtRMAN:
Q.~Vell, it states that they were desirous of learuii~g from yoii w ii at
yoI~ kiiew abont it. Then you say that their object in getting that in forination was`)Ot to investigate the frauds or expose thetn, but to cover
them up.  Now, what motive did you meau to attribute to them for prevel)ting publicity of those matters?
A.L wish to answer that quesfion with perfect fra~ikness.  I have
stated here exactly what conclusioji I derived fro~ iny intercourse with
those two officials-that they were desirous to find out exactly how much
I knew, and to avoid publicity.  Those were the two thiiigs that impi'essed theniselves on my mind as the object of bo~h the Secretary of
the Ii~terior and the Commissioner of Indiau Affairs.
(~. Theii you don't know their object iii trying to prevent publicity?
A.I could not say absolutely what their object was.
(&) ~Vhether tlieir object was to cover up the fraud, or, by preventing
publicity, the better to ferret it out and puilish it, you could not say?
A.I do not quite ii ii derstand you.
Q.You are not able to say whether their object in trying to prevent
publicity of the matter was to be the better able to ferret out au~l punish
the fraud or cover it up?
A.I give 110 intimation of that here one way or the other.
~~. I was at a loss to know whether you intended by that to charge
tl~~'m with a ~~urpose to cover up and conceal these frauds which you
allege existed there, or what you did ineaii exactly by that.
A.That they wished to cover them lip for the time being I iitferred
froin my intercourse with them.  ~Vhether their object ~i5 to cover up
"`0i'iethiiig thdt thQy wished to keel) from tlie public tbr some particular
reason, I (lid iiot s'~y; or whether they wished to eventually avoid the
~~ublicity of haviiig mismaliagement made appareiit iii the J~epartinent,
I caniiot say.
(? Thei~ you do not i~eaii, positively, to charge a bad motive on them
in that sei~tence-a corrupt motive?
A.I don't remeiiiber at this moment just how it lay iii lliy mind
wlieu I wrote that.  The prominent poilitS iii iiiy miiid were the two
f~'tcts: first, their efibrt to fii~d out ju~t how much I kiiew; secoiid, to
av~~idthe i~ublicity ofit. Those two were the points that impressed themselves oii ij0y mind.  Their niotives for that I did not go into.
(~. You did i~ot attribute any bad motive to them in tryiiig to find out
`Ill you knew about the frauds?
A.~Iotives are difficult thii~gs to discuss, of course.
~? You did not mcm  by this to charge the in witlt any corrupt motivcs iii trying to get from you the iiilormatioi you had about those
1i1'ttters )
A.Tiie coi~ciusion I derived from iny intercourse with these two gen 
C34
~i~i~en ~vas, that they ~vere very desir~~us to have inc give them, and
then~.`~ioue, (~ii of iiiy iliforination 01) the snbjeet.
Q.I wint to ask yon, ~~I5 their object iiai~ifestly to find ont iiot so
~~neh what the frands actually ~vCrC, as tlie extei~t of your iliforination
concerning them? Now, was there atiythiiig iLnI)roper ii' their obtaining from you all tlie iiifor~uation you had c()I)cerliil0g then~?
A.Not iii itself.
Q.Then yoii did not I)0eaIl to charge the!)~ with ally in~~)roj)riety of
coii~lnct in obtai~iiiig from you all the iiiforin;itioit you had ill refereiice
to these ti~atters?
A.Not the le~~st.
(~. Then your conclusion iii reference to that-" so as to prevei~t by
every meaiis in their I)0'vC~ all publicity or exl)()sure of then~," is i)ot a
co~iclusioii as to`vhat their object was, but was a t~escription of the
~~an~ier in which they`vinted to ascertain all tile i)~cts aiid get your
iiiforniatioi~?
A.I will state fi-ankly, gentlemen, that I concluded they were anxions to cover ni) these things, rather than to correct tlie abuses.
(~. And that is what you iiican by this statc~nciit, "so as to prevent,
by every illeans in their power, all ~~nl~licity or exposure of tliein`2 ~
A.I doii't say why that was. That ~l5 tlie iiilpressioii I derived
iroin lil~ ii~terconrse with those officials.
Q.I was asi~ii~g just what you niea~it by this laiiguage; what yoii
desigiied to convey to our niiiids by it.
A.I tliiiik it is a ~ery clear sentence, and I explain it this way, as
I have just stated: it struck inc that the anxiety to avoid publicity was
tlie niore I)romil~ent feature in this intercourse than a desire to ascertain just what the frauds were.  That is my opinion, deliberately formed
in putting together all of tlie interviews and talks I had iii various
ways. I do not wish to go beyond that, but thIt is the iuJpressiou left
on Il)y niiiid as the result of thOSe difterent i~iterviews.
Q.Ttieii you in can to say it was niailiQst to your niiiid that they
wa~ted to get all the infori~iation you had lor tlie purpose of l~ceping it
froiii the public aiid cover it up?
A.That is no{ quite what I said, or, at least, what I nicailt to imply.
Q.You state it was their object, inaiiifestly, "to fiiid out, not so niucli
what the frauds actuilly were as the extent of u~y infori~~atioit concerning the in, so as to prevent, by cv cry inealls in their power, all publicity or ex~)osure of thein.~ Then you uleall to say it w~is manifest to
voni miild thIt they were desirous of gettiiig all tl)C iiiforniation you
lia~l for tlie purtiose of co~ erilig ni) the ir~iuds ai~d prcveiit tlieiii becoming public?
& Not iiecessaril y to cover them  u l~ eiititely, for a bad purpose.
P(~rliays oiie or both of tile ge~itlemeu ulty have wi~lied to correct these
abuses aiid thought 11 ossibly it could be doiie bett r by avoiding pub -
licily.  but tile l)roiilinent thing iii these ii~terviews was the wish to
l~ oid publicity, iather than to fiiid out " hat t lie ira uds were.  That
is
`vll(it struck me, as I remember tlie diflbrei~t iiitervie'vs, as a whole
th~t N\ (t5 ni~ ~ontlus~on as the i~sult of all iii~ int~i~ lC\~ 5 ~` ith them.
By ~Ir. ATllLRT0N:
Q.That langua$e which lias beeii quoted, does it or does it not ~iatur~ll~ convey an iinplicatioi~ of some niiwortliy iiiotivc
A.I don't thiiik it does iieeessarily; it is plaiii language, and the
prominent points I wished to bring out ~ crc tile t~ 0 1 iii~ntio~ied.
Q.~Vhat my question was iiiteiided to reach was tlic ~iatural implica 
tion conveyed by tlie language to the mind of any reader; and so I asked
tile question, Does it or does it not naturally convey all implication to any
reader of some unworthy motive? Now, was that language intended to
ConvQy an implication of an unworthy motive of any kind?  I understand your iiltcrpretation of it to be, that it does not liecessarily convey
such aii imi)licatiou; and now, I wish to know whether it was intended
to coiivey such an implication.
A.  I think that, to a slight degree, is implied in the two points which
I bring out promilientLy there.
(~. That it was intended to convey that?
A.  I do not wish to be misunderstood. That is a subtle question, in
volvii~g the exact meaning of words.
Q.  I understa'id you, then, to modify tlie ~)revious answer to that
question. Your previous answer was that tlie language does not necessarily convey such an implication. Now I llnderst'Lnd you to say that
it does to some extent convey that implicafion.
A.  I will say by way of explanation that I do not wislt to be understood as stating two things diametrically opposite.
Q.  I uijderstood you to say that it does not necessarily convey such
~!) implication, and then that it does convey such an implication. The
J)Oitit of my inquiry is, What is implied in the form of the statement
that yoil have deliberately adopted?
A.  I think the interpretatioii of the sentence would possibly be differer~t to different minds; but the main point I wished to state in the
senteiicc was the two f~cts which I have mentioned.
Q.  Yes, I understand; but that does not seem to cover the question.
The first question was, Does it convey naturally the implication of
some uliworthy motive? I understand you answered, with some modifications, that it does not convey such an implication; but subsequently
you said that that, to some extent, is conveyed or involved in the
lailguage. Now, my question is, Is it intet~ded to convey the implication which you say is to some extent involved in it? That would be
simply the interpretation from your own point of view, what precise
thought you intended it to be understood to mean.
A.  Yes, sir; it is a question of phraseology somewhat.
Q.  Not as I have put it now. The former question was a question of
phraseology; but the question now is simply, what was your intention
iii using that phraseology; whether you intended to convey the implica.
Lion which you say it does convey-the intent of some nuworthy
-notive?
A.  So far as concerns the slight implication that inay be coiitained in
he laliguagejust as it is, I think I meant to coiiv~y it.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.  As I understand you, you do not mean to have it understood
mxactly that you mean by the use of the language to charge that the
-` —otives for concealing it were corrupt or unwor~hy?
A.  Not necessarily.
Q.  Although you think it is implied to some extent in the language?
A.  To a slight extent.
By tl~e CllAIRThIAN:
Q.  Well, now, we will go on. You say, "3d, the evidence now in my
`055C55ion reflects unfavorably on both Secretary Delano and Commisioner Smith?"
A.  That language cannot well be clearer.
Q.  I want to inquire, when you say the evidence in your posse~siou
&) IF 
66
reflects unfavorably upon them, whether yon meant the evidence which
you had in your possession reflected unfavorably upon their integrity
in the management of their business, or their want of capacity for the
management of it, or their want of diligence in the management of it ~
A. Certainly their want of capacity; certainly their want of diiigence.
Q. That is what you mean by it?
A. Yes; beyond that the language does not necessarily go.
Q. The statment is very general?
A. It is a very mild term-" reflects ~~f~~~~~~~~~~~
Q. Now, Professor, there are some other litt1e~matters you can answer just in a word, yes or no, and it will take but a moment to set
us nglit upon them?
A. I ought to add to that last answer, to be perfectly frank, that I
think it goes beyoi'd the extent to which I have stated above. It goes
beyond these two things; how far I don't say at all.
By Mr. liARRIs:
Q. The pertinent question would seem to be, Did you intend to go
farther than that by the language?
A. I think I did to a certain degree beyond that.
By the CllMRMAN:
Q. You state in the first specification of these charges:
1.-The h~dian agent at Red Cloud agency.
Ij~ the first conversation I had with Red Cloud, when Gen. L. P. Bradley and Col
T. H. Stanton were present, he complained bitterly of his agent, J. J. Saville, who for
the past two years has had charge of his agency.  Red Cloud's specified charges were
that his agent was incon~petent, weak, and vacillating, having no infinence over the
Indians; nnd especially that he was in league with the contractors to (lefrand the Indians of the food and clothing sent them by the Government. I regret to say that all
I saw myself at the ngency, and all I learned froni trustworthy observers and official
records, has convinced me that the charges were well founded.
Now, in regard to the contractors, were you conviiiced that the agent
was in league in order to defraud the Indians of their food?
A. With beef-contractors.
Q. What contractors were you satisfi~1 that he was in league with to
`defraud them of their clothing?
A. That I could not answer, sir, readily, because I should have to
look at some evidence which I have.
Q. ~on state in your pamphlet, with reference to the agent, that the
"threats against him for indignities and alleged frauds continually practiced upon them were open and violent."  What threats did you heai
there?
A. I heard Red Cloud and several other Indians speak in the strong~st terms against him, and use threats.
Q. What did they threaten to do?  What were their threats?
A. To drive him out, and I think kill him; his life had been attempted
before that.
Q. Did you hear anybody besides Red Cloud so threaten?
A. I heard Red Dog also speak very strongly on the same subject.
Q. Did they give as a reason for their threats his defrauding them
out of their food and clothing?
A. They did.
Q. Did you inform the agent of their threats?
A. I did not. 
67
Q. Did you iiiform anybody else of it up to the time this publication
was made?
A. I talked it over with the officers who were with me.  My visit
occurred, as you know, immediately after the trouble of the flag-staff
aft-air, when there was the strongest hostility toward the agent, and
only the coolness of Lieutenant Crawford saved the agent and all the
white people at the agency from destruction, and the excitement had
not died down-the indignation against the agent for that and for the
other things, which probably were magnified in consequence of that act
of his abont the flag-staff.
Q. Well, when you speak of the " debasing influence which this agency
was openly exercising upoii the Indians," do you mean by that more
than the one occurrence which you mentioned to us in New York?
A. I mentioned to you two or three occurrences; I meant those and
similar things~things of the same~ind.
Q. Did you observe any bad results from these debasing influences
that you speak of?
A. My testimony given in New York is clear upon those points.
Q. Not as to whether you observed any bad resnits to the Indians.
A. I~certainly intended to say so.
Q. ~ow, you say, "the issues of annuity goods, of beef and other
supplies, all were made in a loose and unbusiness-like way, in which
a just distribution among the Indians was impo~sible." Now, do you
state of your own knowledge that that distributioji which you saw
made there was not a just one?
A. I refer to the annuity goods particularly.
Q. And the beef issues n~l all, just what you stated?
A. I cannot say positively about the beef issues.
Q. Well, the annuity goods.
A. I think there was.
Q. Can you say of your own knowledge that it was an unjust one;
you saw it?
A. Not strictly of my own kiiowledge, but from the information I
derived on the spot from those most interested.
Q. Whom?
A. I~ed Dog was one, and others whose names I gave you.
Q. Well, from your kiiowledge and experience among the Indians,
will you take the word of any Indian, in a matter in which he is interested in          to
2   prefereiice  the written statements and accoiints of white
men in reference to the same business?
A. I would not.
Q. You say, "Agent Saville was placed in his position to guard the
interests of the Indians and of the (x~overninent, and it apl)eared that
lie betrayed both alike." Now, do you state that he defrauded the
Indians?
A. I do.
Q. And do you state that of your own knowledge?
A. I think I do, sir.
Q. You state that "he defrauded the In~lians by withholding from
them provisions which he charged against the (;overninent as issued to
them." Do you know that fact of your owi kiiowledge?
A. I went into that point quite thoroughly about the issue of November 8.
Q. The question is, do you know that of your own kiiowledge?
A. I have information, which ~ obtained oil the Spot, that there was
no issue November 8 
68
Q. That is not the question. You stated that he defrauded the Indians
by withholding from them provisions which he had charged against the
Government as issued to them.  Now, do you know that of your own
knowledge.
A. From what I know of my own knowledge, with the information I
derived from the agent himself and his official papers, I feel
Q. That is not the question. Do you know it ~ I don't want your
condusion from anything you beard, or what the ageilt or anybody else
told you, becanse we have all that ourselves.  I want to know what
your knowledge is of it.
A. I don't know positively of my own knowledge.
Q. That is the clearest and most distinct charge coiitained ill this
whole pamphlet, and charges a high crime on a Government official in
plain, unmistakable language, and I just want a plain, simple answer to
the question, yes or no.  Did you state it of your own knowledge.
A. You refer particularly to this issue of November 8 ~
Q. I refer to just what you say: "lle defrauded the Indians by withholding from them provisions which he charged against the Government as issued to the in." Now, then, do you know that i
A. I think I do.
Q. You state, then, that you do know ~
A. I think I can.
Q. You state, then, that it is so ~
A. Yes, sir; I mean by that, that what I saw myself put with what the
official documents showed.  N\~hen I say he charged them against the
Government, of course that is derived from the official documents.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. You must have known that goods not issued were charged, else
you would not state it.
A. I do know that.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. That they were not issned ~
A. Yes.
Q. You state that "the truth is, that he issued no beef whatever to
the Indians on that day," the 8th of November, 1874.  Were you there
ou that day ~
A. I state just below that I arived on the 9th.
Q. ~Yere you there that day ~
A. I was not.
Q. ~Vhere were you, then ~
A. On niy way, very near there.
Q. llow far from there were you on the morning of the 8th of Nov.
ember ~
A. On the morning of the Stli of November I was camped on the Raw
llidc.
Q. That is how far from Red Cloud ~
A. You have been over the ground.  It is about 52 miles.
Q. You were at the Raw ili~le on the 8th of November; then liow
can you say of your own knowledge that he did not issue l)ecf at Red
Cloud agency on that day ~
A. I did not mean to say that. I was not there; of con rse, I could not
have personal knowledge if I was not there; I mean what I knew myself
when I got there, derived from the officials. You misunderstood me.
If you ask me if I knew of my own personal knowfedge that he did not
deliver that beef on November 8, that idea I did not mean to convey at 
69
all, of course, because I was not there; I arrived on the 9th.  Of what
absolntcly took place at tlie ageI)(~y on the 8th, I have no personal
knowledge.
Q. ~Vell, I will ask you if lie might not ii ave delivered to the Indians
tlie beef charged as of November ~, on some other day ~
A. That is l)ossible.
Q. So that the Indians would not have been defrauded, although the
date was wrong.
A. That is possible; I have my information from his own documents,
touching tilat very poiiit, which I will take up, proving what I say here
clearly, I thii)k.
Q. You state that the first issne of beef, after the ~onnting was fin.
ished, was made on the 14th of November?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know when the counting was finished?
A. About the 12th or 13th; within two or three days of that time. I
think those documents r~ferred to the 13th as the date when it was absolutely completed.
Q. Now you state that "his official reports represent other issues that
never took place;" do you state that of your own knowledge?
A. I derived that conclusion
Q. It is merely a conclusion?
A. It is a conclusion.
Q. Based ui~on information froiu otliers~?
A. From others and froin the official reports.
Q. Then it is itot a fact of your own personal knowledge?
A. It is not to any great extent.
Q. ~~ell, is it to any extent?
A. I could not say without comparing the provisions I saw delivered
carefully with his official reports.
Q. ($111 you say of your own knowledge that his official reports represeiit ally issue of beef that never took place?
A. I don't know that I can.
Q. Yoti state here that in the report made by Vuited States Indian
Inspect~~r J. D. Bevier, October 21, 1874, the inspector exposed a fraudulent coi~tract made by Agent Saville with his father-in.law, A. R. Appletoii, l~y which the Qrovernment would have been largely a loser. Do
you kitow anything of that of your own knowledge, fuither than Be.
vier's report states?
A. I don't, except that I heard Q. Then that statement that it was a fraudulent contract is an inference of yours, or a presumption of yours?
A. It is based 014 the official report and ou facts which I learned at
the agel)Qv.
Q. And not of your personal knowledge'?
A. Not of my persoiial knowledge.
Q. ~Vhat "other special commissioners of the Interior Department
had likewise reported unfavorably to this agent aiid affairs at the
agency?"
A. I will give you a list of the names.
Q. You state, "And yet this mait has for the last two years, with the
full approval of the Department, had charge of the most important
agency in the ~Yest."  N\rhat are your means of knowing that the Department approved of his conduct of affairs at that agency?
A. First, that they retained liim.
Q. That is all? 
70
A. I think I can give some additional evidence on that point.
Q. Do you know how many times the Department had sent men to
investigate his affairs during those two years?
A. Several times.
Q. You state that there were half a millioi~ of dollars a year passed
through his hands -?
A. Nearly half a million of dollars a year, I fl~ink I said.
Q. Do you mean by that half a million of dollars in money?
A. No, sir; in value-in property.
Q. You mean by that, then, that lie receives and issues goods and
supplies worth half a million of dollars?
A. I received that information from Commissioner Smith.
Q. You said that "he fell an easy victim to the wiles of beef and
freight contractors." Is that matter stated of your own knowledge, or
is it merely an inference of yours?
A. From the best information I could get oil the subject at the time;
it is an inference based on evidence that I propose to give.
Q. You don't know anything of it personally?
A. I think I do; I propose to take up that question, and then I will
give you my evidence on that point.
Q. Do you say now that of ~our own personal knowledge he was induced by contractors to engage in fraudulent practices?
A. I do not say it of my personal knowledge alone.
Q. I do not ask you about "alone." llave you any personal knowledge on that subject of his having fallen an easy victim to the wiles of
the contractors ~
A. I think I have.
Q. Will you give us your personal knowledge on that subject ~
A. I will try to do so; I do not speak positively; but I think I can
give you some facts from my personal knowledge; the question fairly
indicated that.
Q. When you made the e~arge, did you make it upon personal knowledge or upon information ~
A. Generally upon information I got there.
Q. And not on your personal knowledge?
A. Not on my personal knowledge.
Q. Can you state of your own personal knowledge that the number
of Judians supplied with provisions at Red Cloud agency has been
largely overestimated?
A. I state here in my pamphlet that I have good reason to believe
that, and I based that statement upon the best information I could get
at the time, but not upon personal knowledge.
Q. Then your reasons are based upon information derived from
others?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you don't personally know the number of Indians there?
A. I do not.
Q. Does the fact that you found "less than forty lodges" north of
White River on that occasion preclude the possibility of there being a
number of other Indians reported by the men who counted them?
A. It does not; that merely applies to one point, namely, tlie northern
Indians; and as the agent was just then making his official report, I
obtained from him tlie number of northern Indians that he said were
there. That point I know of my own personal knowledge.  Agent
Saville told me that across White River there were a large number of
northern Indians encamped-some 2,000. That statement he repeat 
71
ed ill Washington when he was bere.  I went right to where he
said those Indians were encamped, and by actual count there were less
thaii forty lodges; therefore I know of my own personal
Question. How long was it after he told you this before you went
there?
A. I think it was within a day or two.
Q. Now, might not those Iiidians have gone there before the time that
Saville told you that they were there and after the time that they had
been counted ~
A. I took up that point in my evi~lence in New York.  The northern
Indians, as they moved away, moved north toward the Black Hills.
Q. Do you mean to state from your own knowledge that all tlie iiidians
tli~t were down there from the north had moved that way?
A. I do not, but I know that the Indians were moving away, were
going ii) that direction, and had been going for some days. I waited
several days to have them go off.
Q. There might have been Indians there who went in another direction,
might there not?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Did you understand that those Indians that were going north were
go~ng to the Black Hills for the wiuter?
A. No; they moved north. I don't pretend to touch that question.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. In what direction did you move off from Red Cloud?
A. I moved iiearly north, on the old Arapahoe trail, crossing the White
River near the agency, aiidkeeping on thetrail up nearly to the Arapahoe
camp, and leaving the Arapahoe camp on the left, I went north to about
12 miles from the agency; I crossed the westeily-northern trail; then a
few days later I crossed the other northern trail fl~rther to the east
several times.
Q. About how far away from the agency di(1 your expedition take
you?
A. Not in ore than 25 miles.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. Now, all these northern Indians, claimed to have been there, may
bave been there and you not have kiiown it, may they not?  It is pos
sible that they might have been there and you not have known the fact,
is it not?
A. They might have beeii farther down the White River; but they
coiild not have been where Saville and the others of whom I inquired
said they were.
Q. That is not exactly the question. They claimed that there had
been at the agency about that time, to draw supplies and annuity.goods,
a certain number of northern Indians. Now, you say you believe "the
thousands of Indians officially reported at this agency to be a myth."
That is a mere belief of yours, I believe.
A. Yes, sir; certainly.
Q. Aiid all the Indians claimed by them to have been there may have
been there and you not have knowii it, mi gilt they not?
A. I might not have known it of my own knowledge, but I was
inquiring of men who knew a great deal about them when I went over
there.
Q And you inquired about them )) 
72
A.  I did, p~rticularly.
Q.  Might it not have been that somewhere in that country there
were all the northern Indians claimed by them to have beeii there, and
the men YOU inquired of not bave known~the fact ~
A.  It is possible; I merely want to say that my means of judgiug of
that one point, I think, were very good; of course it was a vital point
with me.
Q.  Now, you state that, when yon were there in November last, the
number of Indians actually at Red Cloud agency "could not have been
more than 1,200 lodges or 8,400 individuals." You state that very positively and as of your own knowledge; now, do you state the number
from any count ~
A.  Not from any count; I state that distinct]y.
Q.  Yon did not count them.
A.  I did not.
Q.  Then, would you say dint your own judgment in guessing at the
number was more reliable than the actual couiit made by men who went
into the lodges~
A.  Certainly not; I merely inade up my mind on thnt point after get.
ting the best information I could from various sources.
Q.  Now, you state here, "The statement of the agent, that on 0ctober
1st there were at the agency over 15,000 Indians, no disiiiterested person familiar with the facts believes for a moment, especially as at that
time the wilder Indians had not commenced to return to the agency for
the winter." Now, then, did you see all the persons familiar there and
who were disinterested persons ~
A.  I cannot say that I saw every person familiar with the facts who
was disinterested, but a good many; and I have since received a good
deal of infbrination on that point from those who know particulady about
it.  I hope by to-morrow to have definite information on that point from
a man who is, perhaps, better qualified to judge than any other man of
the number of Indians at Red Cloud agency.
Q.  You say that no disinterested person familiar with tlie facts believes
that statement for a moment.  That is a mere belief of yours ~
A.  Yes, sir; I believe so still.
Tlie ~HAIP~MAN. It is not stated as a matter of belief but as a matter
of positive knowledge.
By ~Ir. ilARR~IS:
Q.  Professor, about the time of your arrival at Red Cloud, as I nuderstand, there was a census taking?
A.  It was being made when I arrived.
Q.  Jules Ecoffee and the two brothers whoni you know and have spoken
of before, (Nicholas and Antoine Janis) were engaged iii taking it and
I understand that they reported between twelve and thirteen thousand
Indians there at that time.  If I understand the case as it stands in
your book, the issue between you and Saville is this: Saville claims
that between two and three thousand northern Indiaiis left the agency
and went north immediately after the flag-staff difficulty, which occurred
early in that month.  ~Vere there so many Indians wl~o went north after
that difficulty?  lle daims there were two or three thousand, and you
say there were not anythitig like so many.  I want to ask this question,
simply, ~Vhetber it was not a matter talked about there when
you
arrived, that some Indians had left for the iiorth immediately after the
trouble about the flag-staff?
A.  I didn't hear anything said about that. 
73
Q.  Did Saville say that ~
A.  I didn't hear him say so.
(~. ~Vhere did you get the information about it?
A.  I got it from Saville at tlie agency, wheii I was inquiriilg about
going III); and again when he was heic in ~Vashiugton, I think, before
Bishop flare.
Q.  Saville did claim, when you 54~ hini in Noveniber, that some Indiaijs went north in October and November?
A.  I don't think he touched that point at all.  I have no recollection
()f any coliversation with him in which he stated that fact.
Q.  Did he say that a large number-two thousand-were across the
~~liite River?
A.  Yes; he 5t~'tted that several times.
Q.  Did he give you to understand that,those Indians had gone there
after the flag-staff difficulty in October?
A.  lie did not state that.
Q.  But you say it is possible that there might have been some Indians
on the ~Vhite River that you did not see?
A.  Yes, sir; I went over high bluffs, and I could see the lodges for
ten miles, and if there had been any others in that region I would have
seen them.  I crossed there, and took particular pains to couiit them.
Q.  The fact that twelve or thirteeti thousand Indians were at the
agency 011 the 12th of November, as shown by the census, is a surprise
to you, from the number you saw there?
A.  Decidedly a surprise.
(~. ~Vould you say that from observation you are able to pronounce
a ju~lginent upon that matter which would be a safe guide to these coniini.~sioners?
A.  No, sir; I may say here that it would be strange if the northern
Iiidiaits started away just before tl~e annuity-goods were to be i~suedvery strange.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.  Now, in reference to the issue of annuity-goods, you say you were
present at the Red Cloud agency at the annual issue of annuity-goods,
November 12, 1874.  ~Vas that the first issue of annuity-goods you ever
saw?
A.  The first regular issue.
Q.  You state that Red Dog strongly asserted that the issu~ was fraudulent, aiid that the itumber of blankets issued was much less than the
Indians were entitled to, and that the number issued to him for his own
band was not more than half what he should have had?
A.  Yes, sir, I say that.
Q.  Did you ever know ait Indian to receive anything, under like circuinstaiices, that be did not insist that it was not enough?
A.  As a rule I never have; I have no hesitation in saying that.
Q.  You never knew aii Indian to receive anything but he thought he
ougltt to have more?
A.  That would be the rule, especially if he was getting it from the
~gency.
Q.  Now, you state that you were reasonably certain that the number
f)f bales of blankets issued could tiot possibly have exceeded twentyfive bales on that day?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Can you say positively, of your own knowledge, that there were
not thirty-five bales of blankets issued on that day? 
74
A.  I could not say positively that tbere were not; but I feel con
vinced that there were not, from my observation.
Q.  ~Vhen did you first ask Louis Reshaw about the i~uti~ber of blankets
issued there?
A.  Iii May last, here in Washington.
Q.  Do you base your statement of the number of blankets upon
Reshaw's reports to you, or upon your own observation?
A.  Both.
Q.  Did you write the certificate which he signed in reference to the
blankets?
A.  I did; embodying in it carefully his exact statemeiit.
Q.  Did you iead it to hiill after you had written it?
A.  I did, and he read it all; at least I handed it to him, aiid he
looked it over.
Q.  You state tbere that you were "surprised to find that he had certi
fled to the issue of Noveniber 12, 1~74, of any less than thirty-five bales
of blankets." Now, can you say that that certificate was not true?
A.  I merely had my remembrance of the blankets as I saw the'ii
issued.
Q.  Yes.  But can you now, upon your respoiisibility, cOntr~dict that
certificate, and say that it is not true?
A.  Not positively.
By Mr. flARRIS:
Q.  Did you know at that time what nuii~ber of blankets should be
sbipped to the Indians?
A.  I did not.
Q.  Do you know whether Red Cloud or Red Dog knew tlie number of
bales that the Department had designed for them ~
A.  I don't think they did for that particular year.
Q.  Then, so far as your i)amphlet seems to imply that both Red Cloud
and Red Dog complained that they did not get one-half the blankets
that the Department designed for them, (that seems to be implied,) if
they simply complained that they did not get one-half as many blankets
as they ought to have, that is one thing; and if they complained that they
did not get one-half as many blankets as the Department intended for
them, that is another thing.  Now, I want you to put it as you intended
it.
A.  Au Indian like Red Cloud or Red Dog would judge of what be
ought to have one year by what he had received another year.  They
remember such things very accurately; hence, in stating that they did
not get what they were entitled to, they may have based their opinions
upon the previous issue.  They may not have had any means of knowing what the Government intended for them for that particular year.
Q.  Did you know at that time that the year before the Red Cloud
Indians had had more than their share by some extent, while the Indians
at the Whetstone agency had less?
A.  I did not; I never heard of it before.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.  Now, you say, "llence it would appear that the In~liaus at this
agency received less than one-half the number of blankets for which the
Government paid.~~ That is not a statement of fact, of your own kiiowledge, for which you would desire to be made resi)onsible, but a mere
condusion from the facts?
A.  A conclusion from the facts, as I then looked at them. 
75
Q. Professor, you enter here your protest against the manner of
issuilig those goods.  You say, " TI~e entire issue fot the year was made
in a fe~ hours of a siiigle November day, in the fl)idst of a snow.storin."
~Vas there anything crimillally wrong iii that ~
~. Not criminally wrong; but it indicated gross inismaiiagement, in
my opinion.
Q. You st~te that "The Indians had been suffering for watit of their
bl'iiikets and other ~~~~hing~~ at that time.
A. I did; that I know of my own knowledge.
(? Then, if they were correctly apportioned and isSued, was it iiot
desirable to isSue t~ein as quickly as possible on this COl(l November
day ~
A. The difference between taking oiie day and two days, if thereby a
more business-like distribution conid b~ made, I should think would
niake but very little difference.
Q. The question is this: The Indians were suffering then iti the cold
for those blankets. Now, (lid tlie appearance of the manner of doing the
business justify the withholding of these blatikets to another day, if they
could then be justly apportioned among the Indians ~
A I should think it would.
Q. Just for the business appearance of it ~
A. Not for the business appearance of it, but to insure accuracy of
delivery. The whole thing struck nie at the time very forcibly as an
outrage.
Q. Let me ask you further.  You have made thit statement; now, do
you know the fact that those goods had been apportioned and put
in separate piles, such of them as were required so to be, and a list made
out, c~refully apportioning all the goods among the different bands, and
that list in the hands of the agelit, and he called out that list, aiid the
clerks delivered all that the list called for~ Do you not know that that
list had been carefully prepared to apportion those goods among the
Indians justly according to their number ~
A. I say, distinctly, that as I watched that issue with the greatest
care
Q. Do you say that there was no such list as that?
A. I think my evidence is quite full on this point.
Q. Do you say there was no such list as that?
A. I say that all the agent had to go by was a pencil meniorandum in
his hand.
Q. If that pencil memorandum contained a statement of a just distribution of the goods, what was there wrong about it?
A. The rapidity with which the goods were called off and thrown out
would make it impossible for a careflil count of the goods.
Q. If the goods liad been previously counted and 1)iled in separate
piles, the natne called off to which each particular pile belonged, what
was there in the rapidity with which they were delivered that would
cause any fraud or injustice?
A. Tl~ey had iiot been previously put in piles.
Q. You state that of your own knowledge ~
A. I do; I in can by that that where goods were contained iii a single
bale more than enough for single bands, that bale was cut wit ii the
greatest haste, the goods turned out of this bale a~id throwti out in the
snow. That I saw repeatedly.
Q. You say that "the only data by which the issue was regulated was
the pencil memon~ndum in flie hands of the agent who called off the
quaiitity to be delivered to each chief or headman~' Now, will you say 
76
that tl)( ne!noranduni which lie had i[i his hands did not state a J}~st
dist'ib~tion of~those goods?
~. No, sir; I don't mea'i to say that the list, as wnttei~ down, was not
~jtist, hi~t I do mean to say that ti~e rapidity with which tlie bales were
cut, aiid the goods taken from the bales and thro'vii out, was such that
it was, in my judgment, impossible to insure an accurate and just distribntio~j.
Q. ~Vill you say, of your owli kiiowledge, sta'idii~g there and seeing
that issue, that the distribution was not made iii accordaiice witl~ the
list?
A. I cannot, but I now will explain
(~.You say here, "llence there was no guarantee that the Indians
received even half of the goods intended for them."
A. That I can say.
Q. Now, you say, "The Indians watched the issue with suspicion."
Did you ever see any transaction in which aii Indian was interested
wh~ch he (lid not watch with suspicion?
A. 0, yes.
By ~Ir. llARp~IS:
Q. The question is, Did you see anything at that issue that would conclusively settle the question of fraud ~
A. I don't think I did.
Q. As I understood, it was cold weather, and the issue was late; the
Indians in the camps were scattered over a broad extent of country,
from five to fifteen or twenty miles.  Now, if it had been understood
that on that day there would have been an issue of annuity-goods, and
the headmen had assembled for the purpose of receiving them, do you
think that those facts, supposing them to be true, would in any wayjustify
the apparent haste in the distribution of tl~e goods which you witnessed?
A. I do not.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Now, we will go on.  ~Vith referejice to the beef-cattle, y(~u say,
"The ~`rauds i)erpetrated in supplying the Red Cloud agency with
beef-cattle have been so gigantic, and so long and systematically contin ned, that it is well worth while to show how they are accomplished,
and who is responsible for the outrage." Now, did you mean by that to
charge fraud in this matter of your own knowledge~of which you had
personal knowledge?
A. I think I did.
Q. You state that that had been long continued.  How long ~
A. That I should want to take up deliberately, and give a deliberate
answer when I have my documents with me.
Q. You also state that they had been "systematically continued."  I
would like you to think of that matter, and you can give us an answer
about it some other time.
A. Ttiat "`as my belief when I wrote it.
Q. Professor, what is your understanding of the legal meaning of the
word fraud?
A. ~`ell, I am iiot a lawyer.
Q. You charge distinctly, in reference to this matter, fran~I.  Now, I
merely make the inquiry because it will goverii somewhat my manner
of dealing with the charge, to know whether you make it in the legal
sense of the term "fraud."
A. I don't think I do. 
77
Q ~VeI1, what do yon nieau by the word "fraud" ~s you use it; what
did yoLl n~ean to imply by it ~
~.For example, it aii agent gave a receipt for cattle with weights
greater than the absolute weights of tlie cattle, of a siligle poniid, I
sljOt0l(i say that was a fraud.
(~. J~o yon mean by that, deceivii~g a'id cheating.~
A.I meali deception.
Q.~N~ell, yot' mean obtaiiiil)g by ~lishoiiest in eaii 5, money, or siiffei ilig
aijother to do it ~
A.I inea'i, for example, givil)g a receipt that does 1)Ot corre~tly
rel)resent the fact, by which the &~overiime'it or tlie Iiidians are depri~~ed
of tlie ~lifterence represeiited.
Q.~Vell wheli you use tlie words peipetrated a frand, ii) this sense,
iii connection with this subject of beef, you mean that tlie party obtai~~ed
by ~li~honest means money from the (?~overiiineiit, for which he had not
reiidered value oii his contntct; is that what you meaii by it?
A.~~ell, nearly that.
Q.~Vell, did you, in making these charges of fraud, niake them with
the understanding that you would be legally responsible for making such
charges against the parties you implicate ~  ~Vas that your inteiition ~
You Luow that to charge a man with a crime is, by law, a thing for
which he may bring an action against you if it is not true.  Did yon
make this charge of frand with the intention of being responsible for it I
A.I meant, definitely, to charge the agent with fraudulent purposes.
Q.And to take the legal consequences of it, whatever they might beto be responsihle for the charge?
A.Of course I expect to be responsible for what I say; I say nothing
but what I believe.
Q.A man may say what he believes, but if his belief should happen
to be wrong
A.I mean to say that I believe the agent was guilty of fraudulent
purposes, and I think I prove it.
Q.Now, in reference to the contract of Foreman, you say, "There is
abundant evidence that this contract was not made in good faith."
~~hat do you mean by good faith there-what did you intend by thatthat he did not intend to comply with his contract?
A.I meant by that, that he did not intend to fill it himself when he
got it.
Q.Did you mean that the other contracting party, the Commissioner
of Indian Affairs, was not acting iii good faith I
A.I think the Commissioner of Indian Affairs was nOt doing the fair
thing in letting the contract in that way.  lle stated in New York that
lie knew nothing of Mn Foreman; was not personally acquainted with
him.
Q.You say here that the contract was iiot filled by the i)arty to whom
it was given, but was transferred a few days after it was sigiied to ~V.
A. Paxton, of Omaha.
A.Yes; for a " valuable consideratioii."
Q.Now, if the contract wis coniplied with strictly aiid fully, would
there, iii your judgment, be ally fraud upoii the &i'overni~'~iit ill it havilig been transt~rred or assigned ~.
A.I don't thiiik it is a right thiiig for the Governmeiit to do.
Q.Yes but that is not the question; it i?oreman did not complete
tlie contract, if he did assign it to Paxton, an~i if Paxton (lid complete
lii with all its requirements, how was the Governmeiit defrauded by it? 
78
A. The Goverijment lost what Paxton paid Foreman-that is, the
"v~l u~ble coIlsideration."
(~.liow do you make that appear; the Gonrnment bad made this
contn~ct with Foreman; he was bound by it; liow could tlie Government lose anythin~ by an assignme!)t of it?
A. Because, if ~rr. Paxton filled the contract for the price it cost him
and the G~~vernment had Jet that contract to Mr. Foreman at a higher'
price, tlie Goveriiinent lost the difference.
The CHAIRMAN. \Vell we will not ar~ue that.
WITNESS I spe~l of that in this -way, because any one familiar
with the lJtting o{ ~dian contracts knows the peculiar methods by
which bids are obtained~the net-work of bids that is set to get a contract some way or other.
Q. But you don't charge, ii) this ~~5t'Lnce, that there was any networ'k set to get the contract?
A. I imply it.
~?- Do you now mean to state that there was such a net-work to get
the contract?
A. I mean to say that I heard so at the time.
Q. And you believed it?
A. I believed it, just as I heard f~at this last year there was a similar
net set to get the beef-contract, and that in spite of all the purchasing.
committee eoul~l do the contract went where they did not iii tend it to
go.
Q. Didn't it go to the lowest bidder this year?
A. It did not; I nuderstand not.
Q. Do you ~ay that it did not go to the lowest bidder?
A. I understand that it di(l not.
Q. You say this Foreman contract was nominally in force at the time
of your visit to Red Cloud agency.  Do you say that it was not actually
in force?
A. I give my impression from the information I got.
Q. Do you say now that it was not actually in force?
A. Not of my own knowledge.
Q. Yoii calinot say that it was not actually in force at that time.  Do
you say that that contract was not filled in the`iame of Paxton, and
the vouchers for all the heef delivered under that contract were not
made in the name of Paxton t
A. I know they were nearly all so made.
Q. What do you mean when you say it was "nominally" in force?
A. That word, nominally1 is a ctear word.
Q. Do you mean to say that it was not actually in force?
A. I mean to say by that that Mr. Paxton was not the only one interested in that contract; that, altho~igh his name was used, he was not
the absolute person.
Q. In your Thind was it an evidence of fraud, because other people
might be interested in filling a contract and interested in the profits of
it?
A. Not necessarily. 
79
~VASHING~TON, D. C., Tuesday, September 14, 1875.
Preseiit:Hon. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman; Prof. CTEORGE W.
ATHERTON, Hon. TIMOTHY 0 HOWE H, nd Hon.
CHARLES J. FAULKNER..,  on. B. W. HARRIS a
The examination of Professor Marsh was resumed.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. ~Vhen yon say "the real beef-coiitractor, however, whom I
found supplying this agency was the well-known Bosler,~ do you know
whether he was supplying the beef in the name of tlie colitractor or in
his own name~
Answer. In the name of Paxton, and not in his own name.
Q. Then, if Paxton was the contractor, and Bosler supplied the beef in
his name, how was Bosier the real contractor?
A. That woul~l depend on the meaning of the word contractor.  The
person named in the first contract was J. K. Foreman, of Omaha.
Q. Well, Forenian assigned it to Paxton, and Bosler filled it for
Paxton?
A. As agent, as he says.  But I think it is clearly nnderstood by all
familiar with the contracts themselves, so far as the letting is concerned,
and the filling of the contracts, by people on the spot, that Mr. Bosier is
the real man who controls the whole thing; therefore I say the,real contractor.
Q. What do you mean by controlling the whole thing?
A. I think Mr. Bosler explained that point yesterday.  In few words,
I mean that when the bids are made a great maiiy names are put iii, and
to whomever the contract may be awarded Mr. Bosler gets it. He stands
outside, and if a low bid is put in he t~uys the contract of this man or
obtains his permission to fill it-virtually buys him out.  Mr. J. K. Forein an, for example, when the bid was given to him, did not reside in
Omaha; was not, as I understand, ready to fulfill such a contract as
was given to him.  That is, had he alone been held to the strict fulfillment of the contract, he could not have filled it.  Mr. Bosler, who has,
as is generally known, I think, controlled the beef-supplies for the Sioux
Indians for several years, was, perhaps, the only man, in connection with
the men who shared with him, who was capable of filling such a contract.  1 will explain that matter.
Q. Explain how the Government is defrauded in this matter. If Bosler
does furnish beef in the name of P~xton, or for Paxton, or for Foreman,
or for anybody else, and the contract made with the Government for
beef is filled, bow is the Government defrauded?  That is what I want
you to explaiii.
A. The Goveriiment is not necessarily defrauded under that contract,
but the Government loses the difference in price mentioned in the first
contract and that agreed upon between the real contractor and the
nominal contracLor.
Q. If the Government gets the beef at the price it contracted to pay
`br it, no matter who furnishes it or how it is furnished, bow do you
xplain that the Government is either loser or is defrauded in tlie
matter?
A. In this way: If men stand ready to fill a contract at a certain
orice, and that contract is given to some one else at a higher price, I
laim that the Government loses if it does not secure that differetice by
he proper letting of the contracts; there is mismanagement and loss to
She Government. 
80
Q. Now, you say that Bosler is "notorious for frauds in previous con
tracts."  ~Yiil you please refer us to those previous contracts and previous frauds?
A. For what I i~egard as previous frauds.
Q. I do not want what you regard at all; I want the fact exactly
about this thing.  I just want you to tell us where is tlie contract, and
where is the evidence of the fraud.  If he is notorious for frauds in previous contracts you will ii ave no difficulty in giving us the facts
about it?
A. For one fraud in the delivery of beef I would refer to the report of
Commissioners I~emble and Alvord, the special commissioners who made
the report for the Iiidiaii Department dated June 16, 1873, and with
this report the additional oral infor~i~ation giveil to the Departu~ent at
the time the report was handed in, in July, 1873.
Q. Oral information-was there any memorandum made of it?
A. ~Vhen Mr. Alvord comes, or when you get his statement, you will
have information on that very point.
Q. ~~ell, but Mr. Alvord's oral statement to the commissioners, or anybody else, 15 110 evidence to us of these frauds until he makes it.
A. I refer especially at this moment to the report before us, and refer
to the Department, and especially to Mr. Alvord himself, for the ad di.
tional information.  In this report
Q. ~% don't care for you to tell us what is in that report; we can
refer to it ourselves.
A. I would like to read the particular point.  It is only a few words.
Q. Very well; you may read it.
A. In this report, page 4, it is stated as follows: "The quantity of
beef actually received by the ~Yhet~tone agent during the past year was
unquestionably greatly less than that receipted for to the contractor;
the am on rit really delivered to the Indians far less than appeared upon
the provision-returns."
Q. ~Vell, do you say that that is evidence of fraud on the part of
Bosler?
A. I would like to give one other statement
Q. Do you say that that is evidence?
A. I regard it as evidence.
Q. Of course you can state nothing of your own kiiowledge, because
you have no knowledge of your owii about that transaction.
A. No, sir.
Q. ~hatnext?
A. The report of the Committee on Appropriations, made to the House
of Ilepresentatives February 15, 1871, shows that Bosler was allowed to
deliver Texas cattle instead of the American oxen, and that he was paid
six and a half cents per pound gross weight, when the cattle delivered
were not worth more than one-half that l)rice.  It appears further that
there were frauds p?acticed by Bosler in the weight of cattle.
Q. ~Vhat is the page you are refer~ng to?
A. I caii't give you all the pages now.  The document is the report of
the Conimittee on Appropriations, niade to the House of Representatives February 15, 1871.  I refer you to pages 2:33 et 8eq., and 217.
Q. N\~ell, have you anythitig further to refer to upon that point?
A. ~Vell, I say in addition to that, "and for this reason he is excluded
by the published regulations from any participation iii future contracts."
Q. And that is a statement of facts, I presume?
A. I was going on to say what I mean by that.  I refer 
81
By ~Ir. llARRIS:
(~.~~ouid it not be well for you to say whether there is any further
c~~i~lence about Boslerbeing "notorious for frauds in previous contracts?`~
A. I will say that in addition to that I can give the information that
I ~lerived niyself iii the ~Yest from people who knew, or said they knew,
of the character of ~Ir. Bosler.  I doii't know whether you want that or
iiot.  In addition to that, I refer you to witnesses in the \Vest whose
11'tI1I~5 I gave you.
By ~Ir. ATfiERTON:
().But this is the only specifically documentary evidenc~ you refer to
iii this connection?
A. Ycs, sir, (`it this time. I will s~y, ill addition to this, that my inforll~ati~~n on this l)articnlar subject has been in part derived from the
incmbers of the old Board of Indian Commissioners, and I refer you to
theii~ for that iijforination. I have given you the iiaines of the president
`tiid two secretanes of that board, among others, wlio have iijformation
oil that point, ana I think can give it to the commission.
By the CllAIRMAN:
~? ~Y'ell, ~~ou state that he is excluded from particip~ting in future
colitracts; is that so`~
A. After these alleged frauds to which I referred had become known
to the Board of Indian Commissioners, they, in conference with the
Iiiterior Department, inserted in the l)roposals the following clause:
"No contract or part of a contract will be permitted to be assigned or
filled by other parties without the written consent of the Secretary of
tlie Interior."
By Mr. ATHI~RTON:
(~.C~n the Professor refer us to the published regulations which cxcliitle Mr. Bosler from any participation in future contracts?
A. Not by ndme, of course. Secondly, the proposals stated, "iNo bid
will be c~)nsi~lered from persons who have viol'tted the terms or failed
t() co110I)ly with the requirements of a former coiitract, or who may have
dcf'tttlte~i in any bid heretofore made."
By the CllAin~A~:
~?- Now, Professor, will you state that Bosler violated the terms of
lily contract or failed to comply with the requirements of any foriner
olitrict of his, or defaulted in any bid made by him?
A. I will not say that of my own knowledge, but I understand the old
)oard of Conimissioners have put information to that effect in their
el)ort, a reference to which I will give you hereafter.  I wish to read
rom a statement of a member of the old board, referring in quotationii~rks to a report made to the President of the United States on this
cry point.  I refer to the report of the purchasing committee of the
~oard of Indian Commissioiiers made to the Presideiit of the United
tates in 1S-:3, page 22: "The large award of cattle for the Sioux
gency it was thought to be to the interest of the Government to divide,
iving it to the three lowest bidders, giving the lowest bidder the largest
nantity and the agency easiest of access, and the next lowest bidder the
ext largest (juanfity and the agency next easiest of access.  Subsenently, without consultation with your committee, these contracts
`ere sub-let or permitted to be filled by one individual whose bids had
eeii rejected the previous year by your committee on account of susicion of fraud in connection with previous Indian contracts."
61F 
82
Q. llave you any further evidence upon that point ~
A. I have nothing more to say upon that point.
Q. You state, Professor, on your arrival at the agency November 9,
1S74, you "ascertained that there bad beeu no beef issued for some
tilue, a'id oiily seven head of cattle were then remaining over from previous issues." Did you have any other knowledge of the niafter than
what you have obtaiiied from others there; did you know of your own
knowledge that there liad been no issue of beef for some time previous,
and did you know of your own knowledge t hat only seveu head of cattle were then remaining over from previous issues ~
A. I did not know of roy own k~iowledge that there had been no
issue for some time, because I was not there.  I can only say of my own
knowledge that I saw no cattle there at the time when I arrived.
Q. You say "these seven cattle had all been receipted for to the contractor." Do you know that to be the fact~
A. I heard that fact.
Q. Do you know it ~
A. Not of my own knowledge, but I hea~d it from the agent himself,
wlio gave the receipt, and learned it from other sources.
Q. ~Vell, you state that "all or nearly all of them were subsequently
issued to the Indians." Do you know tl~at fact~
A. That fact I have from the agent himself, who issued them, or said
they were issued.
Q. You state that "these were the cattle examined at Red Cloud's
request by (;eneral Bradley and his officers." llow do you know that ~
A. I was not with ~eneral Bradley when he examined tbese cattle,
but I know when he went to examine them, and what he told me on his
return.
Q. ~Vhen did you see these cattle?
A. I never saw these cattle. I was then very busy making preparations for my expedition, and although Red Cloud urged me to go with
General Bradley to see these cattle, I was so occupied that I could not
go, and General Bradley went with the other officers to see them.
Q. How long were you at Red Cloud agency on that trip?
A. Altogether nearly two weeks; from ten days to two weeks.
Q. How much of that time per day did you devote to the examination of the affairs of Red Cloud agency, its agent and its supplies?
A. It is a difficult question to answer, for the reason that investigating was not my special busi'iess.
Q. N\~ell, bow much in the aggregate was the time that you devoted
to that investigation?
A. I should judge four or five d~ys; but I should waiit to think the
inatter over carelully before auswerilig specifically, in order to separate
the investigation proper from my other natters. I say my object was
not to investigate the agency, but to get iiito the Bad Lands south of
the Black Hills, and I regarded all tlie time I spent at the agency as, in
one sense, lost. I was among the Indiaiis a good deal with reference to
appeasing them, so that I might go forward with my expedition, and iii
this way I learned a great niany things that I could not have leariied so
well had I been directly ei~gaged in investigafing, for the reason that the
agent and his empl~ve's had made no effort to prepare for my visit, and
for that reason I thought I saw thiiigs as they really were. Bad it
been known in advance that I was coming to investigate the agency I
am confidei~t I would have seen much less.
Q. Did the agent facilitate your object with the Indians, getting their
consent for you to go to the Bad Lan~s? 
83
A.lie attemi)ted to do so from  the start, and, I think, meant to do
the best he conid, bnt he made a mistake in the first co'~ndl to which
lie called the Indlaus with refereiice to my expeditiou, which seriously
ii~terfered with my getting away.  I caine prepared with sufficient
escort, I supposed, for my expedition, my order for escort and outfit
coinilig directly from the comrnandiiig officer of the Department, General
Ord.  I iutended to have gone by the agency withont stopping, bnt on
account of the flag-staff affitir, which occnrred while I was on iny way
there, I feared trouble from the Indians.  On arriving at the agency I,
tlter~fore, went with GenerM Bradi~v, the commander of tlie Black
JIills district, and called on the agent with reterence to my expedition,
statilig to hiill fnlly what my otject was and where I wished to go.
lic stated that he feared the Indians would not allow me to cross the
~\~hite i~iver; that they were very much excited iii consequence of the
tlag-~taff affair, and the fact of the miners being in the Black llills.  lie
said he would find out at once whether there would be serious objection, (tIld immediately called a couiicil of chiefs and warriors, aiid laid
the case before them.  This be did in such an awkward way, as I consi'leretl, that a strong opposition was at oiice manifested by the Indians.
liis advice was that I should take no soldiers with ine, but only a few
Indians as escort.  This, of course, was impossible, as I fl~quired wagons
aij~l many other things for my expe(lition which Iiidians could not
look after.  I told hiin I must have an escort to look after my wagons,
teiits, and CominissaHes, and assist me iii iny work.  Then he said I
liad better take as few troop5 as possible and aii Indian escort.  I thiiik
it was in consequelice of his actioii at this council and his advice, however well intended, that iny exj~edition was delayed, and eventually we
were brought into considerable trouble and dai~ger.
Q.I want to ask, in connection with that, what you fiiially did to procure tlie consent of the Iiidians for you to go to the Bad Laiids0.~
A.I gave them presents and a feast, aiid talked with a great many of
them.
Q.Did you take any of them with you ~
A.I tried to take twelve or fifteen with me.  I cii gaged them at the
fIrst council, and ofibred them the ~~rice the agent said wonl~l be amply
~ufficieiit, and supposed they would be i~~ady at the time; but the more
tlie Iiidians heard about the expedition and talked about it among
hem selves the more Suspicious they became, thinking I waiited to go
So`the Black Hills for gold, and they could not ntiderstaiid why I
wanted to go so far on such an expedition merely to get bones.  They
~:liongh~ there must have been other reas2ns; at all events they were
;nsi)iciousand opposed to it. Finding the first atteitipt to take aii escort
jf Iiidians with a number of troops fiiiled, when we were driven back,
=51 have already stated to you, I theii tried to obtain another cscort.
~ittii1g Bull was to have gone as leader of the first escort, taking with
ill) ten or twelve In~lians.  The second time I made aii attempt 1 tried
0 get Sword, Red Cloud's son-in-Jaw, to take an escort, and at one time
e stated he would go; but eventually that fell through.
Q.Did you finally take any Indians with you 0?
A.I did not.
Q.Did you obtaiii their consent by makiiig them presents?
A.I~resents, as I said, a feast, aiid promising to bring their comlaints to the Great Father; their iioniinal conselit merely, I will say,
ecause they were ol)posed to it to the last, and I had to slip away (juietly
-;`itiiont any Indiaiis whatever.
Q.Iii your statement theic is a certificate iii reference to those Seven 
84
head of cattle, signed by General Bradley and others. Did you solicit
from them that certificate?
A. I sent General Bradley a telegram asking him to give me some
information on that point of what they saw but no intiniation in any
way as to what it should be, nor anythii~g of that kind. The original
copy of the certificate I have here.
Q. Did you communicate with anybody else besides General Bradley
on the subject of obtaining that certificate?
A. I think not. I don't remember. I think I did not communicate
with other parties. I merely sent a telegram to General Bradley, as I
remember it.
Q. Do you know whether either General Bradley, Captain Mix, or
Lieutenant llay ever weighed a beef steer?
A. I am very sure they have. I consider General Bradley
(~.You are sure they did?
A. I don't know of my own knowledge.
Q. Do you know whether either of them ever weighed a beef steer
or saw one weighed?
A. I can't say positively that I ever saw them present when that
event took place, but I know perfectly well that General Bradley and
Captain Mix have been in the ~Yesr a good many years and have had
to do with cattle a great deal, and their opinion upon that point of cat.
tle is entitled to great weight. I will here say that I think a persoli
familiar with cattle who has had a great deal of experience in buying
cattle, can approximate so dosely to the weight of a p~rticnlar steer
that there can be but a very slight error in his judgment; and I consider both of those officers, from their experience, especially good judges
on that point.
Q. You consider them as good judges, if neither of tlie'ii had ever
weighed a beef steer or saw one weighed iu all their lives?
A. I hardly know how to answer that question properly.
Q. You say you consider them as good judges of the weight of cattle.
Now, if neither one of them ever weighed a beef steer or saw one weighed
in their lives, would you still consider them good judges of the weight
of a steer?
A. I would, under certain circumstances. For instance, an Army officer,
a commissary for example, might never weigh a steer or see one weighed,
and yet might be receiving beef and have the documents showing the
weight, and examining the cattle, and in that way form a good opinion
without himself actually weighing or seeing the process of weighing
going on. That is a matter of experience.
Q. Can you tell, Professor, whether the cattle for the Army are purchased by gross weight or net weight?
A. They are usually purchased by net weight, but possibly, at times,
-by gross weight. I am not sure on that point.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Can you give us an instance in the whole United States service
where they are purchased by gross weight?
A. I meant to state in my answer that I know there are purchases by
net weight, but whether they are purchased by gross weight in some
particular cases I can't say. I have myself seen Army officers purchase
cattle by gross weight.
Q. Did they purchase them by gross weight, or did they purchase
them on foot at what they would net? 
85
A.I mean by that statement of mine that they purchased the cattle
on foot.
Q.Whether they bought them at what would be their net weight or
their gross weight you don't know ~
A.As I understood it, it was buying their gross weight.  That was
as I understood it.
Q.Might you not have been mistaken about that 0?
A.In some cases I eould not have been mistaken.
Q.Did you yourself ever weigh any beef steers on foot?
A.I think I have.  I certainly have seen them weighed.
(~. Whereat?
A.In Western New Y~rk.  I have no definite knowledge or information derived from that.  That is of no value; I merely mention the fact.
Q.Saw them weighed in Western New York?
A.~~s, sir.
Q.Did you ever weigh or see weighed any of those cattle on the range
up in the North Platte country l
A.I never did.
Q.Have you any knowledge of the weight of a beeve when he has been
kept iii the lot for twelve hours, and when he is weighed directly off
"grass and water,'~ as the herders term it?
A.No personal knowledge.
Q.Now, you say here that "the Indian Bureau immediately endeavored to destroy the effect of this testimony, and the method adopted so
well illustrates the manner in which that Office receives information
reflecting on the management of its affairs that it is worthy of record
here." Do you mean by that that the Indian Bureau is unwilling to
receive information of any mismanagement in its affairs?
A.I think it is.
Q.That is what you mean by that?
A.I do, sir; I judge that from my experience with the Bureau.
Q.In how many instances had you given the Burea~t information of
its affairs?
A.I caiue to the Indian Bureau first with the complaints of Red
Cloud. Ti~at is once.  I subsequently talked over these same matters
at the Indian Bureau, but in a more general way.  I judge also from
what I learned from those who ii ave likewise given unfavorable infor`nation to the Bureau.
Q.You state that you thought from your experience with the Indian
Bureau that that Bureau did not wish to receive iriformatioii.  Your
personal experience was in offe~ng information twice?
A.I refer especially to my first interview with Commissioner Smith.
When I came to him first with the entire complaints about the Red
Cloud agency, I supposed he was the proper person.  I caine to him in
perfect good faith, and I expected that he would receive the information
kindly and profit by it.
Q.I was only inquiring as to the number of times, so as to get at
what your experience was.  You state that you arrived at your concinsion from your experience; now you say you gave information twice?
A.I did not mean my own experience alone.  When I wrote that
statement I had additional information on that point.
Q.Did you give the Commissioner of Indian Affairs the information
that is contained iii this pamphlet at the time you first went to see him?
A.Not all of it.
Q.Did you give it to him when you called to see him the second time?
A.I did not. 
86
Q. Did yon give it to tlie Sec~etary of the Interior.~
A. I did not.  I gave both of them some ijiforination though, and
especially the Indian Cornu~issioner, to whoni I went fii~st of all, even
before I went to the Pr~sident, because J thought the Iii~lian Coinmissioner was the proper persoit to receive complaiiits. an~i it was ~`~~ act of
courtesy to go to itim before I went to the President.
Q. ~Yell, you state that "the same method had been emi)lQyed to
weaken the force of the facts I had laid before it about aifLirs at the
same agenQV.~'  N\That facts were those that yon had lai~1 before it ~
A. The first statement that I made to the Indian Commissioner in
April last.
Q. N\~hat was done to weaken the force of the facts yon laid bcfore
him?
A. On page 33 of n.y pa in phlet I give the e~plai~ation, pnblished ThIQ\
3, from the India~ Bureau to meet iiiy stateuient abo~t the fioui, aiid
so 011~ namely:
It is stated at the Indian Bnrean, ~`ith refereiiee to tlie eomplaiiits Coneerlling ~`iI~i~1ies fornisbed to the Indians at the I~e(i Clond <`igelley, that all tlie flour selit there
~~as inspected at Cheye~ne, by ~Iajor Loiig, colilillissary of snbsistenee of the tTnite~i
States Arniy, and passed by hini as e(inal to the accepted saiiiple.  It is, theref~~re
c~ainied that the samples of iiiferior il~~ur bronglit here by Pr~~fi~ssor ~Iarsh, at tho
ieqnest of I~ed Clond, ~~ere of SOniC old iSSne or like the 5pe(~iInei)5 of sngiir and
tobacco, had been damaged by exposnre to tlie ~eather while ltl the Iiidjaiis' possession.
That statement was sent out by the Indian Bureau to counteract my
first con~plaint, I will say frankly
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. Is that a matter of your own knowledge?
Y I have information that that was sent out froni tite fndiau Bureau.
I was goilig to explain that.
Q. ~ou have heard Commissioner Smith deny it?
A. I want to speak of that.  I don't say Commissioner Siiiith seiit
that dispatch; it should read, " tlie Acting Commissioner," whoever he
was, iii charge of the Iii~liiiu Bureau.  Coniinissioner Smith informed me
that lie was away at the time; therefore, I 5~~~ frankly, I do not hold
him responsible for that.  Comniissioner Smith himself stated to me
1~)reVious to the time this dispatch ~~5 sent almost tlie exact words.
~he only difterence that I cin see in this dispatch as sent aiid what
Coin missioner Smith said to me in person, is that in tlte dispatch it
say~ "All the flour seiit there was insi)ected at Cheyenne, by Mtijor
Long, commissary of subsisteiice of t!ie United States Army," while in
Comn~issioncr Smith's statemeiit to~me he said the flour was inspected
by an "Army officer," without mentionilig his name.  In every other
respect the words to that cftbct were stated to tue by Commissioner
Sniith.
~L~ Do you now state that that dispatch was untrue?
A. I do  it is untrue, as I understand the facts.
Q. ~Vell, if the fact be that there were twelity-seven sacks of flour left
at Cheyenne which had beeii rejected by the iiispector and were seiit to
P~ed Cloud through mistake, and a sample retained would this ~lispatch
still be untrue?
A. This dispatch states distiiictly that " all tlte flour sent there,"
namely, to Led Cloud agency, "was iiispected at Cheyeiiiie, by Major
Long, commissary of subsistence of tlie Uiiited States Army, and
passed by him as equal to the accepted sQn)Ple.."  I say tliat is~uot true.
I base th~t statement on ttie statement of;\i~or Loiig hiniselt, ~ ho in 
87
formed me that he rejected a portion of the flour, and when I made that
statement I made it on his authority, the authority of the man who had
rejected the flour as inspector.  In addition, I knew the fact that a
large amount of flour had gone through to the agency before Major
Long was appointed inspector, and that this flour was not inspected, as
required, at Cheyenne.
By Mr. A~'llERTON:
Q. Do you mean to say you knew or had been informed I
A. I had information.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Then I understand you to say now that all the flour that went to
Reti Cloud agency was not inspected by Major Long.
A. Yes, sir; I say it was not, aiid that the Indian Bureau knew that
fact when the dispatch was sent.
By Mr. llARRIs:
Q. Can yoii say you know the last propositioi~ as of your own knowle(ige, that tite Indian Bureau hati knowledge of the flict when that
disp;ttch was written?  I waiit to be fi~ank with you, because we have
some flicts in our possession that you are not aware of, to tlie eftect that
some flour which had beeit inspected at Omahtt, by a Vaited States inspector named Barclay N\~hite, had already gone oil to Cheyenne.
Some portion of that flour, for all we know, may have ~oiie to the
a~enev, but ~Iajor Long rejected some of that; so that, though it was
not iii~peetetl by ~Iajor Long, it still may have been inspected by another Viii ted States insI)eetor.
A. I refrr for that statement to the documents on file in the Indian
I) urean.
~)~y tile CuAiR~iAN:
(?- Then, froiii the statement you make here, I take it you inean to
~~y tlie Iiidian Bureau did not believe all the statements made to thein
iii iefereiice to mi~management of Indian aftairs I
A. I eoul~l not say positively about that.
~?- Did you refer to this flour dispatch I  I mean tlie iiiformation
wl1i(~h you gave them-whether they believed what you told them or
not?
A. That I eaniiot say; that is for them to say.
(~.~Vell, wheii you spoke gelierilly of their method of dealing with
ilifor;i0iition which liad beeii given them, did you nieaii by that your
general belief of what is told them about inisinanagemeilt at the agency I
A. I doit~t say that they (10 not believe what is told them, but that
tlie~ don't receive iii formation kiiidly, an~l, so far as I cin learn, are
itinch more apt to seem ilidiguant with tite person who brings the inforiliation rather thait the person who is alleged to have committed
tlit In1~m~ji1~i0CuiCI1t or fijud.  My ex~~erience with the Interior Departiiieiit and Indian Bureau goes to confirm that plaiii statement.
By Mr. llARRIS:
()~. That is to say, that is the o~)inion y on formed I
A. From my own experience of the Bureau aiid the Departmeiit aiid
what I learn from others who have been so unfortunate as to give unf'~vorable iiiformation to the Interior~Department and the Iiidiaii Bureau.
Q. Professor Marsh, we are obliged to take your statement. It is
hardly possible for us to say how they may have been influenced by 
88
other people; therefore, when you refer us to other peoi)le, you give us
no earthly means of testing the value of your information.
A.I refer to special individuals who have given this information, and
which has not been kindly received; you can call those persons.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.Professor, was there anything at all offensive in the manner in
which you brought this matter to the attention of the Commissioner of
Indian Affairs ~
A.I think no one would say that my previous interview with the
Commissioner of Indiaii Affairs was other than a pleasant one, and I
bad only the kindest feelings toward him.  I came to hita with the firm
belief and expectation that the information I had to give would be kindly
received, and that I was really doing him a favor in calling his attention
to mismanagement in his own Department.  I was greatly amazed at the
reception I received, and it was that reception that prevented me from
giving all the information I then had.  llad he received me kindly, had
he thanked me, or in any way intimated that he was willing to receive
these complaints, I should have given him every fact in my possession
and put all my information and docnments into his hands.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.Now, Professor, I want to ask you just exactly what the Commissioner of Indian Affairs said to you?
A.What he might have meant by it ~
Q.Tell us just what he said.
A.You will find in my testimony given in New York the full acconnt
of that interview, and I refer you to that.
Q lle said nothing more than you stated there in your tesfimony in
New York-said nothing more to induce this impression which you say
was made upon your mind.
A.Nothii~g farther in words, perhaps; I won't be positive about that;
but it was the general manner.
Q.\Yhat was there about the manner? Explain that maimer of his, if
you can.
Q.I think that is given fully in my testimony in New York, as I
remember the testimony; I have nothing to add to it.
Q.You may not have anything to add to it, but we may be desirous
to kiiow something more about it, in order that we may judge whether
your conciusioiis are correct or not.  It is necessary for us to have the
facts.  We would like to kiiow what the manner of the C~~mtnissiouer
was, when you made this communication to him, and what lie said to
you.
A.I don't thii)k I eould make it clearer than it is in the testimony.
After you have looked it over, if there is ally further explaiiation that you
want, I can give it.
Q.I will state that I looked it over with that view, and I thought
perhaps you might wa~t to add something further to it, if you ~lesire to
satisfy the minds of the commissioners that your conclusion was the
only one that a man could come to under the circumstances.
A.I will look it over again and consider that point.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.You have just now stated, in reference to this disi)atch, that, before the dispatch was sent Mr. Smith had substantially stated to you
the same thing, with the slight modificafion which you have in en tioned.
Now I ask whether he did not say to you that tlie samples of inferior flour 
89
brought there by you, at the reqnest of Red Cloud, were samples of
some old issue, and wer~ not fair samples of the flour being delivered
that year~
A.  Re did state that.
Q.  Did he also say, "The specimens of sugar and tobacco had been
damaged by exposure to the weather while iii the Indians' possessio~,"
in that conversation with you? Did he claim that, or say that he
thought it might be so?
A.  L took lip each one of those poiuts iu my testimony in New York.
(~. No; but when you are saying you were met unkindly, I want to
ascertain whether it was manifest unkindness toward you, or whether
the Commissioner stated the reasons for not accepting your statement as
true.
A.  lle gave essentially this statement here.
(~. Did lie say, or in substance ilitimate, that lie believed Red Cloud
aii~l Red Dog, and those other Indians with who in you had been talking, had misled or deceived you?
A.  Re implied it.
Q.  N\~ell, now, Prof~.~sor, did he not substantially deny some of the
st('-~tements which you had already made?
A.  I doii't think he did.
Q.  Did he not deny any of the statements you had made?
A.  I think he (lid not.
~~?- N\~as or was not that all you saw on the part of the Commissioner
indicating hostility to you?
A.  That was only a small part of it.
(~. Can you state what else he said?
A.  I will say that, in addition to the samples which I sbowed him,
and which Ldid not consider of any very great importance in themselves,
I gave him a great deal of intormafion touching the mismanagement of
aftairs, and I don't think he received it any more favorably than he did
the other.
(~. Did he indicate to you by his manner or his words that he was not
satisfied of the truth of your statement?
A.  As I remember the interview, the impression left on my mind is
thit it was much more irritation at having the complaint made thau
aJy doubt.
Q.  I think, Professor, when you make such a statement as that you
de~~art from the legitimate purposes of answering the question and are
~rgning the case somewhat.  You say you think he was more anxious to
over up the frauds than to punish the offender.  My inquiry is simply
whether the Commissioner appeared to doubt the truth of the statement
which you had heard, or said he doubted it, or gave you to un~lerstand
0e dotibted it, either by his words or maimer.
A.  I think he implied that, as I have said.
~? Now, you would not claim that, if Mr. Smith really doubted the
tatement by reason of other information which he had, if that were the
ruth, it would be fair to say that he was rather seekiiig to cover up the
~~~ong than to get at the truth and punish the offender?
A.  It was iiot any doubt, stated or implied, in regard to the characer of the rations, but the whole tenor of the interview.
Q.  Then I will ask you whether you felt, when you left the room, that
?ommissioiier Smith was not willing to receive the statements you
~ade as the trnth.
A.  I don't think I felt that.  Possil~ly he thought I had placed too
i-iiich reliance in Red Cloud's word, while in fact I considered it of very 
90
little importance then, and very little now; but I doii"t think he was
aiiy more anxious for informatioii when I left the sut~ect of rations and
spoke about the subject of annuity goods, whidi I did very fully.
Q. The samples of flour, sugar, aiid tobacco that you brought here
would not become evidence of fraud or wroiig if Red Cloud's statement
was not true.  Now, if neither you nor i~1r. Smith believed Red Cloud,
there would be so~e reason for both of you doubting whether these
samples should guide the Departmeiit.  Did you feel at that time that
R~d Cloud had possibly misled you (`?
A. Not in regard to the whole matter.
Q. I~i regard to the samples, did you think that possil~ly he had
deceived you
A. I will state to the Commission distinctly, that I do i~ot vouch fortbese
ii'.dividual samples; but I believed theti, aiid I believe now, that the flour
and tobacco I saw there, that Red Cloud gave Jne, were fitir samples of
those that I saw issued.  I believe that the coftbe was absolutely issued
to I?ed Cloud.  ~Vliether he inay have picke(l out some bad gntius, I
could not say.  If so, then it niight iiot be a fitir ~ainple.
Q. Is there not some evidei~ce that Red Cloud had doiie that with
reference to the coffee?
A. I fliiuk that possible.  I doii't thiiik at U~at time I had considered
the matter very carefully, becau~e I was very busy.
(~.Thus far, professor, you have not fitvored us with those samples.
A. I have them at my hotel, aiid will brii~g the in dowu.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. Passitig on from that, you state, Professor, at tlie bottom of page
2.~ of your pamphlet, that, oii the iiiorniilg of November 1~, wlti le you
were at Red Cloud ageuQv,` ~Ir. Bosler, oiie of tlie coiitractors, brought
to tlie agency a herd of several huiidred hea~l of Texas cattle, the first
that liad been received for some weeks previous.  This lot`v('i5 acce~)ted
by the agent and receipted tbr, but lie oiily weighed a portion of tlie
herd.~~ Did you see liin~ weigh ally of them
A. I did not.
(~). Did you see them weighed?
A. I did not.
~? You did not see any of the iii weighed?
A. I (lid i~ot.
~~. Theii how do you know that he actually weighed a portion of
them?
A. I have his state~nent for them ii~ tlie presei~ce of Bishop II~re, a
writtcii document, which I shall suliiiiit as evideiice, with h~ishop llare's
Si ~ilature.
Q. You state here that von "have seen iii any hundreds of herds at
various points betwecit this ageticy aij~l S~intherii I~t115a5,~ aiid htve
purchased many animals for tlie use of your ex~~editioii.  Did you ever
weigh aiiy of t{lose cattle purchased oil the foot?
A. I never did; I estiniated them, is I stated a few moments ago.
(? Now, y~u say that "all the cattle iii this herd were wretchedly
gaunt and thin, and the n~ajority ot tlieiii wer~ si~all, )nally b~iiig ~ ear -
liugs.'~  NV heii you say that, do you meaii to say that the cattle were
poor iii flesh?
A. Certaiiily poor for that time of y ear-absolut~l~ 1)001.  They were
poor in flesh; they were not what I would regard as fat cattle.
Q. ~ou say that the majority of them were small, and many ~erc
yearlings.  How in ally yearlings were there? 
91
A. I should have to make an estimate of that. There were a good
many, as I remem~r.
Q. flow many would you s~y ~
A. I should want to consider the matter before I gave a definite answer to that to be perfectly correct.  There were a good many.  I saw
them as they came out and as they went by. I think that would be
fair
Q. ~Vill yon be able to give us a fair approximation of the number of
yearlings that were in that herd ~
A. I don't know how near I could come to it, but I should say fifty
would perhaps be an approxiniate number.
Q. iNow, can yon say that those yearlings were weighed and counted
an~i receipted for by the agent?
A. I cannot of my own knowled~e
Q. flow many of the cattle of th~t herd do you say were not
weighe~l?
A. Oii that point I can only give you my opinion, except what Agent
Saville said himself to~ Bishop llare, viz, that some that were wild, a
small nuiiiber; he did not say how n~any.  I think it is a small nurnb~r.  I ha~~e the exact memorandum of it.
~Ir. liARRIS. I think lie says a few.
Profrssor ~IARsll. "Some few ti~at were wild he did not weigh, but
estiiiiated."
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. Do yon know anythiiig about tlie mode of weighing cattle at the
corral
A.I do.
(?.I think you said you never saw them weighe~l?
A. Never saw them weighed, but I saw Q. Do you know tlie fact, or do you know that cattle which caniiot be
driven ~}u tlie scales are usually the stroligest and largest, rather than
the siiiallest of the cattle?
A. They would be largest as a genen~ rule; that is, if the reason
why they were not weighed was that they were wild an~l vicious.
(~.You say a large ii umber of the cattle in that delivery were what is
called by eattle-incii "scalawags." How many scalawags were there?
~~. I have never had my attentioii called exactly to the iiuiiiber befbi-c.  But there were a large number of them. Perhaps
(~. T\vo hundred of them?
A. No, sir; I should say not?
~? Oiie hundred?
A. Less tliaii one huiidred.
(~.Fifty?
A. I should say that wonld be i)earcr right.
Q. Do yoi' say there were fifty?
A. I do iiot say there were fifty, but that wonld be near it.
Q. Can you say that there were twenty-five of them that were scalav~ags
A. There were forty or fifty that I should regard as scalawags.
(~.\Vhat do you nican by scalawags?
A. That is a technicil expression in the N\~est among cattle-dealers.
Ilic term "scalawag," as I uiidcrstand it, may apply to two or three
lifferent kinds of cattle. For example, an animal that was stunted aitd
iiot strictly a healthy animal, I would call a scalawag. An animal that
was crippled, and for that reason conld not move around so as to get 
92
as much food as the others, and for that reason was poor, I would call
a scalawag. Thirdly, cattle that are so old that their teeth are poor,
and for this reason do not get enough food to keep them in good condition, I would also call scalawags. And I saw some of that kind of cattle in that herd. There were forty or fifty of that kiud of cattle in that
herd as I judge from what I saw.
Q. How many of that forty or fifty were of the stunted kind?
A. I could hardly form an estimate of that.
Q. How many of them were of the kind that had no teeth?
A. That I could not form an estimate of, because of the rapidity with
which the thing went on. I could not form an esti in ate of that.
Q. Then you say that there was another class of cattle that were
weak and decrepid.  How many of that kind, in addition to the scala.
wags?
A. I class those under the scala wags. Well, I certainly saw a dozen
of that kind.
Q. N\Teak and decrepid?
A. Weak and limping, and apparently not well. Possibly some of
the cattle that limped might have been injured in the scrimmage in
getting them on the scales, so that I would not say exactly that because
an animal limped it was a scalawag.
Q. Do you know where Bosler got those cattle?
A. I do not.
Q. Did you ever see another herd of such cattle as those at that season of the year?
A. It appeared to me to be the poorest herd of that kind that I had
ever seen. I state that in my pamphlet. As to that particular issue, it
is due to the herders that I should say that there had been a little snow
(not a severe storm, but a little snow) which had made the coats of the
cattle rough, but independent of that they were poor cattle.
Q. How close were you to those cattle?
A. I stood at the left end of the gate where the cattle came out, and
saw them all-every head. Part of the time I was down the line where
the lines are' wider, and saw the cattle there; but I think I can say I
saw every head of cattle that came out of that corral. I don't think I
could be mistaken as to the character of those cattle, making every possible allowance for the snow-storm that preceded their delivery, and for
the fact, which is stated on the next page of my pamphlet, that they had
been driven forty-eight hours with little food au~l sleep.  Th~t would, of
course, make them gaunt and make them look poorer thaii they really
would under favorable circumstances, if they had been well fed and the
weather had been fine.
Q. Did you count that herd of cattle?
A. I did not.
Q. Can you say tltat there were not the number of cattle meiitioned
in the receipt of the agent, exclusive of the yearlings that were there?
A. I could not absolutely. I inquired at the time of some one, I do
not recollect whom now, whether allowance was made for them, and
they said not.
Q. What time of day was it when you went down to the corral?
A. I was about two o'clock.
Q. Who went down with you?
A. M~'jorBurt.
Q. They were there weighing the cattle when you got there?
A. There were no cattle weighed that day after I got there. I do not
think the cattle were all weighed. 
93
Q. ~~Tere you not informed that the cattle bad been weighed before
you came there?
A. I think so, but I am not sure.
Q. J)idn't you meet Dr. Saville, and the clerk, and several other gentlemen coming back from the corral to the agency when you were going
froin the agelicy to the corral ~ Didn't ~ou meet some gentleman, who
told you that the cattle had been weighed ~
A. I did not.  Not a word was said at that time about it.  Dr. Saville
told me that he would issue cattle that afternoon, and that when he
went from the agency I had better go down immediately, so as to be
present aiid see the whole show, which I had heard a great deal about
ond was ailxious to see.  When Saville came out of the agency and
started down, I immediately got on my horse, and ~Iajor Burt did the
same, and we rode down after the agent, the agent being some little distance ahead.  ~Ve rode down with quite a large band of I1ldians~nght
among the Indians.  The agent left the agency~just before I started.
Ilis starting was ihe signal for me to go, and when I got to the corral,
following promptly after him, the agent was standing on top of the
stockade making preparations for the issue.  That I know absolutely.
Q. Didii't you know that (x~ibbous, the clerk, was down there, and had
~~eighed those cattle ~
A. I know nothing of the kind.
(~.~Vere you not so informed I
A. I think not.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. I understood you to say, Professor, you were informed that they
liad been weighed.
A. I heard something about the weighing before they went down, but
there are several important points to be cousidered in this connectiou.
I don't know whether you want to take them up now or not.  One, for
instance, is whether the cattle were actually weighed or not.  That I
loubt.
(~.Do you know anything about it I
A. I will give my reasons for doubting it, which I think are concinive.
(~.~Ve have very positive proof th at they were weighed. If you have
nything to the contrary, we would like you to give us that information.
A. If you have only the evidence of the agent and his employ6s, alone,
sl~ould iiot change my opinion nevertheless.
Q. And suppose we have it from several very respectable gentlemen,
vho are disinterested, that they saw them weighed I
A. Then I should think differently, but not from the statements of
lie agent and his immediate eniployes.
Q. If you have any reason that is conclusive to you mind, which sat sties you that they were not weighed, we would like you to give it to
-s.  1t might satisfy us on that point I
A. In the first place, the 14th of November was a short day, cloudy
`~ the morning.  Now, the agent states distinctly that he weighed all
hose cattle himself.  I know of my own knowledge that, if he weighed
J them, he must have been through before half past ten o'clock in the
lorning.  Consequently, the only time he had to weigh those seven
undred and one head of cattle, which is the number, according to his
3ceipts, was between the time he went to the corral in the morning to
eigh and the time he left the coral to come back to the agency.  I
 
()`4
claim that there was not time enough to weigh those cattle du~ng the
period the agent was at the corral.
Q. llow many cattle were there on that occasion?
A. Seven hundred and one.
Q. llow long do you claim that it would take to weigh seven hundred
and one cattle with the arrangements they have there for weighing ~
A. That would depend on the character of the cattle somewhat.
Q. ~Vell, these cattle were extraor(linarily l)oor, according to yonr
statement. Row long would it take to weigh that kind of cattle?
A. I don't say they were extraordina~ly poor. I got to tlie agency
either about ten o'clock, or not later thaii half-past teii.
Q. You were stopping down at Camp I~obii)so1i?
A. I was. But that was the morning when I came up to the agency.
Q. You got to the agency about teii o'dock?
A. Ten, or not later than half past teii. The agent was then there.
I was with him, or near him, all the time betweeii that hour aiid the
time when he went down to the corral to issue the cattle; tl~at is to say,
two &clock  Dunng that time he could not have gone down aiid weighed
those cattle without my knowing it.  That is the' ojily reason.
Q. You state that he could not have weighed the cattle before ten
o'clock, the time you can~e lip there?
A. I feel confident lie could not.
Q. You don't think he could?
A. That is my opinion.
Q. Do you say in your judgment it was impossible for him to have
done it?
A. I think in my judgment it was not done during the time he was
there.
Q. Do you think in your judgment it was impossible for him to have
weighed those cattle in the morning before you got there, no matter
what time he commenced?
A. I do. The maximum time, of course, would be between daylight
and ten o'clock, of course deducting the time it took him to go there
and back.
Q. But he could have commenced to wei~h at daylight?
A. Yes, I suppose he could, but it is not very likely that he would.
Q. Professor, you state that in that region cattle should be iii good
condition at that season of the year. Now have you any information
that you could give us that this herd of cattle was not iii good condition?
A. Cattle would be in tlie best condition in October, I shonld judge,
in that region, and would fall off but little by the middle of November, but yet they would to some extent.
Q. ~Vell, what I ask you is this: If you have ally information why it
was that this particular herd of cattle should be poor, colitrary to what
would be the natural condition of catHe at that season of the year in
that region of country? Do you know anything of tlie I~revious loca
tion, haiidling, management, or dealings with this herd of cattle?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you know of ai~y cause why these cattle should be poorer than
any other cattle in that part of the country?
A. I judge from the " scalawags" and small cattle in tlie herd that
it was not a fair represciltative "bunch," as they would say there, of
cattle from a large herd, but that it was a poor lot sent ui) at that time;
otherwise, I should say at once that cattle at that time of year would 
95
be iu pretty good condition. There had been some cold weather, but
not enougl seriously to affect them.
Q. And you can give 110 reason why these particular cattle should be
in bad c~}nditiou at that season?
A. Except that there may not have been a fair sample of the Texas
cattle in that herd at that time, but a poor lot. That is what I thil)k
they were.
Q. Can you give any explanation of how a man coul~l get togetlier
seven huiidred aiid one bead of poor cattle t that season of the year in
that regiol ~
A. The cattle were not all poor as I have stated, but when you judge
of a herd of cattle your attention is naturall~ directed to the small ones
<ind tlie scilawags and so on, especially as in this case I had heard both
I~ed Cloud aiid i~ed Dog and other Indians complain of the character of
the cattle, and this had been a subject of comment among several Army
oflicers and myself for two or three days previously; so that having
had our attention called to the poor cattle that were being issued about
that time, when I saw these cattle I had fresh in my mind the previous
conversations on the cattle question.
Q. Did you inquire of the agent or anybody else there what was the
weight ofthose cattle as shown by the scales?
A. I did not. My conversation with the agent about the cattle I
have given already.
Q. You state here that Mr. Bosler apologized for, or explained, the
condition of the cattle.  Which one of the Boslers did that?
A. I do not know his first name.
Q. Who did he talk with?
A. To me. Possibly to Major Burt also.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said words to this effect: "This herd is not a fair sample. We
had bad luck coming here-bad weather," and so on.  I don't remembei his exact words, but what he said was touching those points.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Did he use the words "this is not a fair sample?"
A; I think he did.  He implied that.
Q. It is rather important to know that he used words of that char.
acter?
A. The whole tone of his remarks was iii that direction.
Q. You have stated it ill two ways. In your pamphlet you state
with reference to your talk with Mr. Bosler about these cattle, " In explanation of their condition he informed me that he had been obliged to
overdrive them so as to reach the agency in time for the issue." That
is the statement you make in your pamphlet.
A. That he stated distinctly.
Q. And now the way you put it is that he said "that is not a fair
sample of the cattle." Now, if you think he said that you should have it
down upon the record?
A. I think he said it.  I am not confident.  He said something to that
effect.  ~Vhether he ileaut clearly to convey the idea that the cattle
were absolutely iiiferior to the previous issues, or whether, owing to
these facts tbat he stated they did not appear as well, I would not be as
positive about that.
Q. Did he volunteer that statement, or did you make sonic inquiries
of him?
A. No, he volunteered thnt statement to me. 
Q. llad you made any statement before ~
A. J had not; possibly ~Thjor Burt, who was with ine, said something
about the catUe, aiid in that w~y ii~troduced the subject; there were
two or three of us talking, and he introduced tho~e reniarks himself
about the cattle.
By the CllAi~~A~:
Q. You say you "subsequently learlied that this was a standing excuse
when persoiis not directly interested in Indian affairs witnessed a cattle
delivery." ~Vhom did you learn that from?
A. ~o, sir; I cannot say absolutely the persoii who told me of it.  It
was some one fitmiliar with matters there, and I think one or two of the
Army ofticers.
Q. Did they state how inaiiy times that excuse had been made to
them?
A. They did not.
Q. Did they state that it had been iiiade previously?
A. They did not.
By Mr. llARRiS:
Q. Do you know whether the person who told you, whoever he was,
knew anything about it, or was he oiily stating a rumor?
A. I accepted the statement at the time as reliable.
Q. That is hardly a fair answer. I ask if you know whether the person wbo told you that knew personally anything about it, or whether
he was merely making a casual remark conveying what he supposed to
be a common rumor?
A. As I remember the circumstance, I think be spoke of what lie
knew in some cases, and what he heanl in others that he himself had
heard some such excuses made, or knew of fheir beiu~) made.
By the CHAIR~MAN:
Q. You quote Agent Saville as saying hat "be himself weighed
all of the herd that were weighed on the morning that they arrived."
Now, do you say that that is not so; that lie did not weigh them?
A. I have already stated that I don't think it is true; I don't think
be w&ghed them.
Q. But do you say Uiat it is not true?
A. I don't believe it is true.
Q. ~ell, you say you found, "according to Agent Saville's receipts of
the cattle received during the same quarter of 1874 had reached nearly
the same average of more than 1,040 each." Now, do you say to us that
those cattle did not weigh that much I
A. The cattle I saw issued
Q. No, no; I am talking about what you have stated in your pamphlet. You say, "I found that, according to Agent Saville's receipts
of the cattle received during the same quarter of 1874 had reached
nearly the same average of more thu ii 1,040 pounds each." Now do
you say those cattle did not weigh that amount ~
A. 1 don't know it positively, because I was not there during the
whole quarter. I have here Bishop IIar&s statement of what Saville
said in my presence in ~`a~hington. That is not a verbatim statement,
but the substance, as Bishop ilare a;id myself subsequently agreed
upon. I will read that statement. It is as tbllows:
~VA5HLNGTON, D. C., June 1, 1875.
llad interview with Bisbop liare at Fbbit't Honse.  Dr. J. J. Saville also present
part t)f time. 
97
On inquiry by Mr. Bishop H. and myself, the fbllowing statement was made by
Saville:
1.The herd of abont 70() cattle that came to agency while I was there were very
gaunt and thin, owing to hard driving, some 4~ hours, with little grass or sleep.  He
liad sent word to the contractor to hurry through, as he had only seven head on hand,
and the Indians had had no beef for some time, he having kept back rations to induce
them t(~ be counted.  This had made them angry. These cattle arrived in the morning, and he had weighed most of them that forenoon. Some few that were wild he
did not weigh but estimated. Among the cattle then issued were 40 or more small
and  scalawag" cattle. The issue was the same afternoon of the receipt. Dr. S. was
conident that the cattle, thin as they were, would weigh 850 11)5. on an average.  The
bishop asked my opinion, aiid I thought they were much less.  Saville insisted that
those he weighed ~`ame up to that average, and those estimat~~d were fi~1ly as large.
He l~imself weighed all that were weighed of that herd. This h did the morning they
arrived.
2.Saville said that there were only seven head of cattle (those examined by Gen. B.)
at agency Nov. 11th.  Two of them he did not feel sure he had receipted for. I then
reminded him that he had told Mr. Hinman and myself that he had receipted for all 7,
and that I had questioned him particularly on that very point.
3.Saville said that a short time before my visit (in August he thought) he was in
Cheyenne, and ten car-loads of flour (2,000 sacks) arrived, and the need of the agency
being great, by order of Dept. were sent on to agency without inspection, except that
Mr. French, of Chicago, retained a sample, by Dept. order.
4.Subsequently, some 200 sacks of dark flour, inspected by B. ~~ite, at Omaha,
came to agency without being inspected at Cheyenne. This was very poor flour, but
not musty.  This was about the time of my visit. I asked Saville if the "dark, sticky"
flour 1 saw given out was part of this lot, and he said he thought it was.
5.In regard to tobacco, Saville said that there were two kinds in the warehouse,
one of this year and one of previous year. The latter was, on one occasion, chosen by
Red Cloud to send to northern Indians as a present.
6.The sugar issued during my visit was a dark, low grade, but good wholesome
sugar.
7)Coffee was not very good.
S.The pork was "prinie mess-pork," and not very useful to Indians, who use only
the fat.
The above report of a conversation with Major J. J. Saville is correct according to
remembrance of it.
W. H. RARE.
N~w YORK, Juac 24, 1875.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Did I understand you to say that Saville was present when you
read that paper to Bishop llare?
A. No, sir.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. At same time when you did read sometliing from Saville's state.
ment, he did object to it?
A. It was when I read my notes of the conversation with Mr. llinman. I saw Saville with the ~ev. Mr. Hinman, the official interpreter,
previous to the interview with Bishop Hare.  It was in the conversation
between Bishop Hare and myself in Sa~~i]l&s presence when ~aville
expressed a doubt about receiving or accepting all the seven head of
cattle.
Q. How many conversations with Saville have you`undertaken to
take down "?
A. Three: One in the presence of Air. Hinman, of which I have full
notes-not, however, with his signature; I will give it to you if you
desire. The second was with Bishop Hare.  I have his signature, (the
one I have just submitted;) and the third was my own conversation
with Saville, to which I make no reference.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Do you say, Professor, when Saville said those cattle would weigh
85() pounds, that he did not s~y "and rnore~"
IF 
98
A.I ain perfectly confident that he (lid not say anything of
and that he did not imply it in anything that he said. that kind,
Q.You puUish in your statement here, page 26, a schedule of beef-cattie, amounting to 2,719 head, and you speak of this large herd of cattle,
which no one could fairly estimate at a greater average weight per
head than 750 pounds. Now do you say that those cattle did not weigh
`nore than 750 pounds.~
A.Judging from all I saw of the cattle
Q.0, no; not judging from what you saw, but do you say so yourself?
A.I did not weigh them, and hence I cannot say that they did not
weigh that.
Q.You cannot  ay but they might have weighed more than 750
pounds?
A.I cannot.
Q.Now, do you say that Saville claimed that these 2,719 head of cattle weighed only 850 pounds?
A.I doii't touch that point at all.
Q.N\~hat do you mean, then, when you say that Saville only claimed
that they weighed 850 pounds?
A.I refer here to the herd which I saw; my statement at the bottom
of the page relates to the herd I saw them issue.  I r~fer to the herd
we were then talking about in Bishop liare's presence.
Q.Then you do not mean that Saville only claimed that those 2,719
head of ~attle weighed 850 Pounds~yon do not mean that?
A.I do not touch that point.
Q.You don't mean by this statement, that?
A.No, I don't touch that point at all.
B~ Mr. IIARRI~:
Q.Th~ question is, whether, at the time you and Bishop ITare were
having his conversation with Saville, you had the information con.
cerning heir reported weight?
A.I a  not sure; I think I had; but I a:n not absolutely sure.
Q.N\Then you talked with Saville, and he was claiming they would
weigh 850 pounds, did you know that be had reported them as weighing
1,043 pounds?
A.I did not at that time. I base that statement on an official document from the Second Auditor's Office, dated June 8.
Q.lIad you any information to satisfy you that Saville had receipted
for them at that rate?
A.I think I had, but I wont be positive.
Q.Did you suggest it to Saville or mention the weight which he had
reported?
A.I did not.
Q.Did you to BiSho1) llare?
A.I think I did not.
#~. So that you and Bishop llare then, as you iiow remember, already
had information that Saville had receipted for those cattle at the rate
of 1,043 pounds each?
A.I wont be positive whether I had that information at the time or
not; I have an impression, however, that I knew approximately.
Q.Do you remember whether, during the conversation which has
been referred to, anything was said about the cattle coming up to the
contract.weight?
A.I wont be positive on that point. 
99
(?.Or whether the fact of their weighing a thousai~d pounds was mentioned ~
A. I feel sure that was not mentione~i.
(~.~Yas there ai~y reference made to the coi~tract-weights of 850
pounds in the sul)0mer, and 1,000 in the winter  Do you differ with the
Bishop on tl~at subject?
A. Since the Bishop~s statement, I ii ave thought that over, and don't
recall any reference to that, but yet it may I' ave been said.  I will say,
while on this beef question, I have a certificate to present as evidence,
which I consider important.  This certificate is from Lient. P. II. Ray,
second lienteliant of the Eighth Infantry, who was stationed at the Red
Cloud agency.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q ~~here is lte now ~
A. lle is now in Arizona, and I received this document by mail. lle
saw those cattle issued, atid as he was commissary and directly engaged
in looking after cattle in the Army, his evidence is of special weight.
Q. Do you know him ~
~. I don't know him personally.
~~. Do you know that he was stationed there?
A. I do.
Q. Did you see him there ~
A. I did not; he came afterward.
Q. Do you know that he was commissary ~
A. Ido; I will give you that if there is any doubt about it; I can
give you additional evidence.
Q. Do you know that he has bad experience in the matter of purchasing, and weighing, and dealing in cattle?
A. On that point I refer to his letter accompanying the certificate,
both of which I now hand in.
YUMA DEPOT, Auiz.,
August 28,1875.
DEAP~ Sin: Please fin~l in closed certificate of some of the facts that came to`fly
inowledge while at Red Cloud agency.  I hope it may be of some assistance to you.
I judged his herd by one which I had as acting conimissary of subsistence, which
Were much larger cattle, and by actual slaughtered weight did not come up to an
tvcrage ~f ~)O pound~
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
P.H. RAY,
Seco'~d Lieu teua n t, Eighth Infaatry.
Prof. 0. C. MAR.~H.
~e,c 1Jatc~i. Con~i.
YUMA DEPoT, Aniz.,
A~~gust 28, 1875.
I certify that during the months of April, ~lay, and June, 1874, while at Red Cloud
Nebraska, I was present at      of fresh beef "on foot  to the Indians.
)r on h;~nd at this agency were inferior Texas cattle, many of them only one aud two
yea rs old, and would not, in uy opinion, at any time average over seven hundred
l~ounds gross. A gent Saville ii~fbriued me in conversation that he received and issued
these cattle at an average of one thousand pounds gross.  I was also frequently
present at the issue of flour, sugar, coffee, and salt meat, (having United States subistence-stores in a part of sanie building.) and I never saw an issue made by weight.
The invariable rule was to issue the flour, s~igar, and coffee with a scoop-shovel, except
to large parties, when the flour was issued iii bulk and the stores were always of a
v(~ry inferior quality.
P.H. RAY,
&(o?id Lieu (cuant, Eighth Infantr~. 
100
By the UllAIRMAN:
Q.  You say, "These frauds ill weights which are consuinniated by direct collusion between the agent and coi~tractor, and through which
both Ii~dians and Government are usually greatly defrauded, form only
a part of the general system of theft." Now, do you charge, on your
responsibility, collusion between the contractor aiid agelit to defraud
the Indians or tile Government?
A.  I infer that from what
(~. No; I do not want what you infer  Do you charge now, 011 your
responsibility as a man, that that is the ase?
A.  I believe that fraud took place.
Q.  I don't want your belief about it; I want to know if you charge
it here now?
A.  Not on facts within iny own knowledge; but from the information
I have Q.  I did not ask you about your knowledge or information now, or
anything of that kind; we will come to that directly.  I want to know
now if that is the charge we are investigating, and if you make it?
A.  I do not make the charge directly, of my OW!1 knowledge.
Q.  Do you charge that there is a "general system of theft," in which
parties connected with the Indian matters are engaged?
A.  I coiisider the agent guilty of theft in that sense.
Q.  Then you charge him with tleft?
A.  I consider him guilty of theft.
Q.  ~~ell, who else do you charge with theft, here, now?
A.  I make no other charge directly.
Q.  You state that the agent should have bad on band, on the 11th of
November, 1874, "about 430 head of cattle when he actually had only
seven." Now, do you state of your own knowledge that he had not
issued those cattle to the Indians?
A.  That conclusion which I end with here is drawn from his own
official documents, which you have in your possession.
Q.  And not based upon personal k~~owiedge or anything outside of
them?
A.  No, sir.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.  I should like to ask the Professor if he will give us the calculatioii
by which he arrives at that result; if iiot 11 ow, at some other time.  I
have looked over the figures with a good deal of care, and should like to
see tlie process.
A.  Yes, sir.  ~Vith regard to the issue of November 8, I will state
here that it has been shown above that the issue of November 8 did not
take place.  Ageiit Saville, in his statement to you, claims that this wa~
a niere clerical error, ai~~l tlie date 0p1)O5itC the 8th should 10 ave beeii
opposite the 1st; a~~d that the issue took I)l;0ce then.  I wish to meet
that point directly here, by reference to a l~~tter to the Indian Bureau
from Agelit Saville, dated November l:~, 1874.  Tlie document you will
fin(l oii file in the Iiiterior Departuient.  I wish to call your attei~t1on to
the fourth clause ii) that letter which relds as follows: " 4th. November 1st. Tl~ere was 110 issue, it being suspeiided until the Indiaiis should
co1iseI1t to be counted."
Q.  I would like to ask the Professor if there is anyU~ing in this to
show that the issue did not take place Noveniber 1st, with refrrenc~
to beef particularly? 
101
~ JIcre is the docui~~eiit which con~es with tbat letter.  [Exhibiting
abstract of provisiolis, sliowitig i~o issue of ally articles on the Ist.i
Q Does this w{~rd " issue," iii the clause quoted, as you understand,
rcfcr to the ratiolls, or to beef alone?
A.To the rations; to the whole issue.
~.Now, Professor, suppose it to be true that there is a clerical error, as
is.1lleged' by J)r. Saville in his statement, and that November 8tli is
,~,itten on liis b{)oks instead of Noven~ber 1st, ajid that abstract was
i~~~tc Ill) floin hiS books as of November Stli inste;i'l of Novemt~er 1st,
~~(~lll(l ll()t this state'~~clit actually be n~ade to coiifo~'in to tlie record as
lit his it thcrc, thit thcre was ilone on Novciiiber 1st?
A.That is 1iossiblc.
~? Does it iiot iicccssarily follo~v, if his books show th;tt there was an
~~~ic oii tlic Stii, a~~d that statement is ma~le up fUon~ tlie books, wonld
}i&)t that necessarily conespou~I to the books, and wonl~l not this stateji~cilt actually be ina~le as correspon~ling to those of the book and the
l~stract, that there was none 011 November 1st?
~ I would not say liccessarily, but naturally.
($). Thcii if after n~aking this return, l~e should discover that Noveinl)ci tlic Sth oli his books and November tl~e Sth on the abstract were
~ clerical error, would it not follow that tl~is was a clerical error also,
iiid that he should have said on November Sth there was no issue instcatl of November 1st?
~.I tliiiik I)crhaps it would.
(~. That being the case, does this locument w1~ich yon ii ave offered
i~cccs5aHlY convict Dr. Saville of a false statcmeiit, any farther than the
cli~rical ciror ~oes?
~.Not necessarily.
By the CllA~RMAN;
Q.Professor, in the next paragraph of your pamphlet yon say that
ixton was "well known" to be the agent of Bosler.  NN~hat evidence
have you of that?
A.That is what I learn from people, who were familiar with those
il~ttcrs, in that region.
~? ~Vill you give us the name of anybody who knows that fact I
A I cannot say that they know of their own knowledge.  I do not
l~'iow it of lay own knowledge.
Q.Di(1 ally pcrsoils tell you that they knew it of their own knowl
A.1 am iiot sure that they did.
~~ou $iy that "this colitract had been violated in all its iniportant
fcat~ircs, an~l si~a~ncful f~auds practiced iii its f~~~fi~~~~~~~'~  ~~~ill you
i~iint us to a violation of that contract, so that we nlay have the evitlence
~.I refer there, as 1(10 above, to the inforn~ation I derived from vari115 SOlilceS 011 that 1)Oilit.
~?- (`all van l~alne a siiigle instance in your knowledge of tlie viola   ()t a sin~le coiiti-act on the part of I)axto~i ~
\.I caiisi4cr that tlic
(~. N(), 110.  ~ali you na~ne all iiistance of your O\Vl1 knowledge is
\viit 1 asl~c~l you.
~.`ilic herd of cattle which I saw issued
(~. ),l1o  tli at is ~iot tlie question.  Tiie question is, cali you name
`1 lli~le ilistance within your knowletlge which is a violatio~t of that
~()litF1ct-yC5 or no 
102
A. I think I can
Q. ~Vell, name it.
A. The issue of beef which I saw on November 14
(~.You consider a violation of the contract ~
A. I do.
(~.Any other one?
A. I bave no other personal kiiowledge.
Q. "And shameful frauds practiced in its fiilfillment.  I~ave you any
personal knowledge of that?
A. I reier to the same beef-i~sue so far as my personal knowledge is
concern ed.
Q. Your personal knowledge ~f it relates to this particular issue?
A. To that particular issue. My additional it~fbrmation is given in
the certificates I have presented.
Q. N\~hen you say that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs was derelict in duty, in not calling on the bondsmen of Paxton, the contractor,
for satisfaction, as the law required him to do, you mean that the bond
had become forfeited by n~eans of these violations of tlie coutract
which you have mentioned?
A. I so considered it.
Q. You state that Commissioner Smith "on March 17, 1 S75, privately
made a new contract with the same ~V. A. Paxton (but iii reality with
Bosler) to supply beef for the same Red Cloud agency, at a iiiuch higher
price ($3 per 100 pounds) than this contractor had origiiially bound
himself,' anti, "this contract was illegal, as it was given by the Commissioner without advertising for proposals." I;)oes that embrace all
the allegation you propose to make against the conduct of the Commissioner of Iiidian Affairs in that respect, that it ~`as illegal, being let
without advertising~
A. Iii regard to these transactions here I will say, first, I considered the previous contract was not completed; that is, tlie contract was
for so many millions of pounds of beef.  If tlie cattle did not weigh
what the Ieceipts stated they weighed, then tlie whole aniount of beef
had not been issued.  Second, each contract stated that the Governinent has a iight to call for 2;~ per cent. more of tlie sanie supplies, if
d~emed advisable. I believe the Commissioner did not call for the extra
-~ per cent. on that contract. Third, tlie legality of a contract made
without advertising would, I think, depend npon the emergeiicy. There
is a law of Congress, if I am rightly informed, which ~tates that the
purchase of goods to any large amount shall take l)lace oiily after proposals have been advertised for, except iii certain cases of great emergency; this being designed to meet a case that comes up sutldeiily, as I
understand it-some pressing emergene~. Now, I will say that I don't
tliiiik there was a suddeii, pressing emergeney in this ~i5~. Tlie fact
that the supply of beef would be exhausted~about a certaiii time must
have been knowii to the Commissioner some time befbie it was exhausted, and it seems to me he liad plenty of time to advertise for proposals.  I stated in lily te~timony in New York thit I believed much
better terms could have been obtained by the Goveiiiment if l)roi)osal
had been advertised for.
Q. Ao, then, I understaiid you to nieaii that he was direliet in dutv
in not calling for tlie ~.j I)er ceiit. ad(litioiill within a re~isoiia~~le tiiiie,
and lie was direliet ill duty iii iiot advertising, because you tliiiik tlie
eniergelicy did not exist for purchasiiig it
A. I think so. 
103
By Mr. FAULKNER:
(? ~Vas there an additional supply of beef that might have been
s111)plied under the 25 per cent. dause of the contract ~
A. I so understand it.
By the CliME MAN:
Q. Profi~~sor, on page 29 of your pamphlet are publisbed memoranda
~f bccfc'jttle, th(~n at P~ed Cloud a~'elicy, from  January 1 to April 21,
iS75.  It ~onld appear, froni the statement that you made preceding
this, that it was your intention to say that the cattle there n~entioned
(lid not`vt~igh the an~ouiit~stated in tiic n~en~on~nda.  Is that your inten
tion ~
A. I }ia~c firther evidence in support of that view.
(~ ~`li~it you mean to charge that they did not weigh that amount
A. Not to issert of my own knowledge that they di(l not weigh that
a~iioiiIit, l)lit to give evidejice that they did not.
~? The' you intetided to show that they did not?
A. Yes, sir.
(~. You state that  another fruitful source of flaud ill cattle at Red
Clotid a~eiicy is the system of stampediiig, which appears to have been
1~r'icticed there, at least since the present agent had chflrge.~  Now,
will you state how many stampedes of Indian cattle iii the hands of
tlie agunt h~tve ever occurred at i~ed Cloud agency ~
A. I d~~n't kiiow of my own knowledge.
~? \\`ell, have you any knowledge that you deem reliable from any.
l~o~ly else as to the nun~ber~
A. I h'~ve 110 deiiiiite information that I cail give here of more than
wo.
~? hid you that information wlieii you prepared these charges?
~. I hid that iiiforiiiatian, and I supposed I had more.
~? lIt~iice, you charge a " system of stampeding~'
A. I (li(l.
~~. ~~~eil, you doii't thiiik tli<'~t tlie two instanees that you liad heard
of ~jiisti(ied tlie coiiclusion that it was a system
A. I do iiot.
By Mr. ATIlERTON:
~? I wonld like to ask the Professor if he call state specifically of
liavin0 heard of more than two iiistances.
~ I ~()1ild not refer distinctly to more than two where tlie cattle were
iii tlie lilildS of tlie agent.  I ineaii, of course, stampe~l~~s of iny amount.
)f course. sn~all stampedes n~i~"ht ~ake place, ind I thiiik it is well kiiown
hat they do but I am speakiiig of a large stain pede-oiie large eiiongli
(I the ~tttle to go baek to the contractor's herd on tlie Platte. A small
ttiiipet}e oiiight take place from  var~ons causes; a small bunch of
~ittlc night be stanipeded and go up oil tloc hills aii~l be picked up by
tlie Indians.  But I refer to a more general staiiipede.
by the C~iAirMAN:
(). Iii snpport of that charge you produce a certificate of I~ouis
1 ~~sliaw, st~iting that  m{ost ()f tlieii~, over 1()L) iii ii ii iii Ijer, weiit back to
lie coiitractors herd 010 tlie Platte." l)(o you tliiiik that wis tlie iiniiiber?
~. I accept tlie nnini~er.  I Stite here over a huiidred.
~? ~\~ell do yon think I~ouis P~esliaw kiiew tl'e iiuinbcr )
~. Not exactly.
~? 1)i(l he kiiow that 15() or l()O had been returned oli icconiit of that
staiiipede. or lid lie state tli('it fliet to you at that tiiiie
k You mean by that, returiied by the c~~ntractor to the a~ent? 
104
Q. Yes; or accounted for to him.
A. lie did not.
Q. Had you been informed at tl~e time of tlie publication of this
pai~plilet that that was the fact?
A. I had not.
Q. Now, can you say, as you do l~ere in this pamphlet, "from such
stan~pedes and the fraudulent results following, both the Indiaiis and
the Government have ~uffered great loss." Caii you say there was any
fraud about any of those staml)edes?
A. I think there was, but I cai)not say so of my own knowledge.
Q. ~Vill you give us your own reasons for believing that thure wa.~
fraud?
A. The fact of the stampede was well kiiowii when I was there, and I
beard a ood n)any men speaking of it, and a~serting, as I sul)posed,
froni reliable sources, that the Governinent liad suffered great losses.
(~.Yes; but tlie fraud about this Stampede-what was there about
it that you heard to iiiduce the conclusion in your mind that there was
any fraud about it?
A. If, after these cattle l~ad been stampeded, the contractor~s henler
should sell them to outside parties, that is fraud, aiid that I i~iiderstood
to have been done.
Q. If the contractor's herder would sell tlie cattle that had l~een stampeded; but if the agent caused the contractor to accouiit for them  how
was there any fraud UI)Ofl the Government about it?
A. If the agent caused the coiitractor to return as many head, and as
good cattle as stampeded, there was no fraud.
(~.~Vell, now, can you say the Government or the Indiai~s have suffered great losses, or any loss, by reason of those stampedes?
A. I believe such to be the case, but I caniiot state it of iiiy own
knowledge.
Q. N\~hat are your grounds for such belief?
A. If ai~y cattle are lost absolutely in consequei)ee of such stami~eding, 1)0th the Government and the Ii~diaiis suffer loss.
Q. Certainly; but were any cattle lost?
A. I think there were.
Q. N\~ell, why do you think so?
A. From what I hear of the stampeding.
Q. ~~hom did you hear it from?
A. I cannot now give you the i~ames of the people who told n~e, but
it was the common talk among the people I met iii ti~at regioii. I mean
that I heard several allusions to it, and I state wl~at I do on tlie streiigth
of information I received from such various sources. I iiiyself had no
I)ersoi~al knowledge of it.
Q. Did you derive aiiy knowld~e on tlie su~)jct fr~n~ anyb~dy who
bad any personal knowledge, and who protessed to have personal knowledge of tlie loss, ultimately, of any cattle?
A. At that time the cittle h;i~l not beeii ~~turi)ed~ i)or tlie matter
settled.
Q. At what tiu~e?
Y At tlie tin~e I was tliei-e, snbse~1nei~t to tlie stainpe~le.
Q. j~hei) yo~t c<iiii~ot say but \Vh('it all those cittle have l~een reti-i~i~ed
aid all aecoiintcd for
A. I calinot.
By ~Ir. HAiRIS:
~? I would like to ask a qnestioii`Acre.  Louis I'~esli'i'v, iii liis certinc~ite, makes this stateii~eiit: " Thus, some cattle were afterwird driven 
105
to the agency, and were receipted for by the agent.'~ Now, do you know
what means Louis Resliaw had for ascertaining that fact?
A.~Iereiy that he was at the agency and familiar with the receipts of
cattle, and I suppose he spoke froin personal knowledge.
Q.Do you suppose he kiiew whether or not the agent had knocked off
from tlie receipts of cattle 150 head at one time, if such a thiiig took
place, or (lid he sim~~ly see tl~e cattle brought there and turned over?
A.I could not ~~~.
~L~ ~VIio wrote this certificate signed by L9uis P~eshaw?
A.I~iid.
~? From your personal knowledoc of Louis I?e~liaw and bis state
}i~{')$4~0)1h~1t wi$~{~u~~O~ fcel like 5~~~Iig to us that we may coiifideiitly
A.I dou~t thinl~ I could say much. I will say, in regard to tbis stateineiit here, that tlie contractor's herder offered to selt inc those cattle at
a bead  that P~eshaw gave me the iiaine of tlie herder, told me
where I could fiil(l hiin, and that I could get a gooil deal of information
()f lii ii) about that stampeding aiid what becai~ie of the cattle.
(? That statement, supposilig it were true, I take it, would have 1)0
teiitleiicy, iii your ju(tgmei~t, to show that j~Ir. L~o~ler or Agciit Saville
1)articil)ated iii that design?
A.Not at all.  ~fr. Losler has 100 herders, 11) Cli that lie can pick up
every~vhere arouiid tlie country, (`111(1 a siii~le lier~ter inay have wished
to sell some of these stanipeded cattle.  It would iiot imply any wrong
except on the ~`)rt of the herder.
~Ii'. J. W. L~osLER. I woul~l like to ask tlie professor a question.
Tlic QllAIR~IAN. Well, I suppose there is no objectiol).
Ly Mr. BOSLER:
~? ~~~liere did Louis i~~eshaw give you this certificate?
A.Iii Washington.
~? At what placc~at what house?
& I ain not sure.
(? Were iiot Todd P~andall and Leoii Pallarday preseiit at the tiiiie?
~ They were not. I had no conversation with them on tlie subject.
~t~ Were these certificates all giveii at ojie tiiiie-those of L~uis
P~cshaw~in reference to the blankets and the beef?
A.They were given on tlie days mentioned, while he was in Washingtoi), last May or June. The one about the blailkets,Itliil\k he signed
in the office of the notary public. Those about the beef he si~n
~-ards, and I think the same day.                 ~ ed after  Q.Was not it on the occasion of a lunch or dinner to which you had
ii~vited liim, and at which spirituous liiiuors were very freely used?
A.It was not.
Q.Lo you state that it was not?
A. I do, positively; he lunched with jue at the hotel.
Mr. BoSLER. Very well; that is all.
Subsequently, Professor ~iarsh asked permission to explain a little
further his aiiswer to Mr. Bosler's last question concerning Louis
J~~eshaw, which was granted.
Professor MARsll. I merely wish to state that i~esliaw was not
under the ii~fitience of liquor. lle was here in Washington, with others
[`roiii tlie Indian country, and I invited lii in to lunch with me. I sometimes take a glass of ale or a glass of wilie at lunch, and we may have had
ometliing of that kind to drink, but spirituous liquors were not excesively indulged iii. May I ask what is the poii~t of Mr. L)o~ler's inquiry
~vhy he asked Inc that question? 
106
1\Ir. BoSLER. I was informed by some of those parties that such was
the case; that spirituous liquors were indulged in to excess, and it did
not strike me as a proper thing under the circnmstailces for a gentleman to do.  Yon set yourself up as a great moral reformer, and to a
inan pretending to occupy such a position it is not very creditable to be
dnukitig with squaw-men and half-breeds, because, when nuder the
j~nfluence of liquor, they might sign papers they did notftillynnderstand.
Professor ~IARSll. No, I do not call myself a moral reformer.
~Ir. BoSLER. 0, very well; I don't care anything about it.
Professor ~~IARsil. Then that matter might as well be stricken off tlie
record.
~Ir. BoSLER. ~~ery wcll; I have jio oblcctioii; I car~ notliiiig more
abont it
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.  Professor, yon say of the issue of provisions, November 1~, 1874,
"The barrels of pork were rolled out of the warehouse by one of the
agency employcs, the heads of the barrels knocked in with an axe, and
the contents turned upon the gronud."  Now, how maHy barrels did
you see thus rolled out, and thus knocked to pieces, and the contents
thus tumbled on the ground?
A.  Agent Saville says in his statement to yoii that there was only
one barrel of pork rolled out.  That is a mistake. I saw several barrels.
Q.  How many ~
A.  I cannot say how many-the exact number.  Major Burt stood
beside me at the time, and yoti may have his evidence; bnt there were
several barrels.
(~. ~ell, were not each of those barrels issued iii bulk; the entire barrel issued to a particular band of Indians large enough to receive a
whole barrel at an issue, and thus the head knocked out in order that
they might divide it and carry it away?
A.  I could not say absolutely as to the Iiidians who received this
pork, but the fact that all the pork I saw issued on that day was rolled
ont and issueJ in this way is the main point, aiid the character of the
pork I noticed particularly at the time.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q.  Did you notice how many were knocked open in that way with aii
axe?
A.  At least three, and I should think six or eight.
Q.  Did you notice whether the Indians or the ageiit's assistaiits did
that~
A.  The assistai~ts; the cn~ploy(s of the agency.
(~. In all cases?
A.  Ii~ all cases.  Mr. Saville was iii Cheyeniie at th(tt time and I was
at the agency during the whole issue.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.  Now, professor, you say, "The coiitrttct under which this wretched
j~ork was furnished to the Indians was given to J. NV. L. Slaveits, of
1&ansas City, well known as a favorite coiitractor of the litterior Department, at id was signed by Commissioi~er Smith, July 11, 1874," and
"contained the usual phrase, that` the articles furiiished should be subjected to a thorough ilispection aiid careful comp~trisoii wiHi the samples
thereof,' and the usual bond was required."  Now, what evidence have
you that Slavetis was a favorite contractor of tlie Iiiterior Department?
A.  The fitet that he i~ad had previous coiitracts, and was intiniate, as
I understood, with people cotinected with the Interior Departmcnt. 
107
(;). ~~ith people connected with the Interior Department?  NYho?
A.I cannot say.
(? Then you conclude he is a favorite from the fact that he had had
previous contracts?
A.I do.
By Mr. 11APR15:
Q.N\~heu you say intimate with people connected with the Interior
J )ei)artmeiit, (that is rather an ambiguous phrase;) do you mean intimate
with the Commissioner or the Secretary?
A.Not necessarily.
Q.Do you mean familiar in a business sense, or familiar in a social
and friendly sense?
A.Perhaps the latter.
Q.llave you knowledge that be was on terms of intimate friendly
relations wit ii either the Secretary or the Commissioner?
A.I have not, of my own knowledge.
(~. Well, if he was, would that be conclusive in your mind that he was
a favorite of theirs?
A.Not necessarily.
(~. Wasn't this pork inspected?
A.I understood from Commissioner Smith, in New York, that it was
inspected in I&ansas City.
Q.~~ell, now, Professor, taking it for granted that that was a bad
lot of pork, who do you conclude from that was to blame in this case?
A.It is difficult to say whether the man who made the contract or the
inspector. I would not attempt tofix the responsibility. If the inspector
did not do his duty, he is to blame.
Q.You state that "the price paid was $21 per barrel." Now, can yon
say that was more or less than the market-price for the pork advertised
for and contracted for by the Department at that time?
A.Not necessarily; but it supposed good, sweet, mercitajitable pork,
and I would say the fraud comes in the character of the pork itself.
Q.I did not know but that, by reason of your stating the price, yon
designed to intimate that there had been too much paid for it, even if
that flirnished was of the character of the pork contracted for?
A.I don't mean to say that, necessarily?
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.Do you remember whether, in your former testimony, ill New York,
~~ou stated the pieces of liog that this pork consisted of?
A.I don't think I touched the question; but, as I remember it, the
pieces. They 1~ne~oCticno~t all nniform, as I have
was, that some of the
barrels had niore b~ne in than others.  I know that question came n~)
in my niiiid immediately on my reading Saville's statemeiit that there
was only one barrel rolled out.  I remember when the axe struck the
head, and the brine came out, there was more in one than ilt another.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.Did you see any that had no brine in?
A.I thiitk there was one.
By Mr. FAPLKNER:
Q.Did you examine to see what pieces this pork consisted of?
A.~o, I did not.  I noticed ano+lier thii~g about it  Q.What was that?
A.That it smelled bad and was rusty. 
108
y Mr. ATllERTON:
Q. Did you observe any connection between the absence of brine and
the badness of the pork~
A. I could not say that I did.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. In regard to the flour, you say, "The flour was in tlie single sad~,
without any brand whatever," and that you "afterw~rd saw in the
warehouse, apparently put np in the same way and entirely without
brands, a considerable number of sacks." About how many sacks did
you see there in the warehouse in sinole sacks without brands ~
A. I could not say the exact number.
Q. Twenty or thirty?
A. Possibly not as many as that. I could not say tlie number exactly
bul, approximately, flfteeit or twenty.
~y Mr. flAPP~IS:
Q. ~Vas there any considerable amount of flour there, Professor?
A. There was not.
(~.llow much in all should yoli tliiiik?
A. I don~t recollect. I itave in mind one pile I sa~v, aiid that is the
one I refer to. There iiiay ii ave been other piles ill other parts of the
warehouse that I did not notiec, but I think iiot.
By tite CllAIi~MAN:
Q. ~~ell, did you cx~mine tlie quality of that ~~our you si~ iii the
warehouse
A. I did not.
Q. You cannot say, tiieii, ~lat kind of flour it was?
A. No.
Q. You go on to say that you saw flonr in three different Indian
lod~es, and all appeared to be of tlie same ~~uality as that you saw issued at the Indian agency, and essentially the saute as the sample i~ed
Cloud had given you, although you made no direct comparisoil between
them.  Now, did you test that flour ~
A. I don't remeiitber whether I did or not. I think I did, but I am
~ot snre.
Q. Did it appear sour, or musty, or spoiled?
A. It appeared to be very poor flour; it was sticky flour and dark iii
color.
Q. You also state that you "learn from good authority that this con
tract could not be honestly filled accordin~ to the accepted sample at
the price paid" for this flonr.  I believe in New York you gave us the
names of persons by whom you expected to prove this fact.  llave you
any flirther inf~rmation on the subject since that time?
A. Nothing further, so fir as that parti~~ular point is concerned.  I
will say that I have here a sample of flour that ~ed Cloud gave iiie,
and also a sample on which the contract was made. If the connuis
sioners desire it, I will show it to you?
By the CllAiRMAN:
Q. Yes, we would like to see it.  {Samples exltibited.1  ~Yhere did
you get that sample that the contract is let upon?
Q. From the (x~overnment inspector at Cheycitne.
Q. N\ho is be?
A. Mr. Coakl~v. 
109
By i~rr. FAVLKNER:
Q. Did you see any of that flour at all, beyond tlie sample given you
by Red Cloud ~
A. Not Red Cloud's flour. I stated itere, as yon will fiiid, that I was
at the issue and saw tlie flout' delivered.  "And my atteiition was again
directed to the subject by seeing a sack of floni', wl~ich all Iiidian woman
ltad just received and was cart~ing away, burst opeti aiid part of its cot'tents fall on the grountl." That I examined.  I also say, "I afterward
saw flour ill three different Indian lodges, and all appeared to be of the
same quality as that I saw issued at the agenQv;" and that it was all
dark ill color and poor ill grade.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. Do you think this sample Red Cloud gave you a fair sample of the
flotir you saw issued at the ag~~~y~
A. So flir as I can coin pare the two by my eye, I should think so;
certainly the color is the same.
Q. Have you had much experience in examining and comparilig
saniples of flour ~
A. Yery little.
Q. Now, you state that " this sample of flour is the oiily sample, of all
the supplies purchased last year, that the Departmeiit retained, by
whitli to compare the supplies actually delivered to the ludians and
thus prevent fraud."  You got this sample you have of IJour from the
insl)ector, (lid you not?
A. I did; from the acting inspector in the employ of the Departmeiit.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. lithe employ of;\bijor Lon~~?
A. Yes.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. Do you know that the in;~p9ctors of sugar or coffee or tobacco
each retiiiied samples, as did this inspector of flour?
A. I think they did not. They stated so iii New York.  We had tbat
poiiit np iii New York very fully.
Q. Don't you remember that in New York the inspectors each produced us samples?
A. Not the original samples. If I remember rightly, there was only
one of tlie origiiial snuiples npon which the contract was based, the
others being saml)les taken out of the supplies that were shipped.
I~t'vii1g ipplie(l to the Department to kiiow whether aiiy samples were
ret;iiiie~1, aiid haviii~ been informed by the Department that a sample of
tiie flour was retained, and that they knew of no otlier~, I stated what
1 have iii tlie pamphlet.  Commissioner Smith appeared before the cornii~ission iii New York, and stated tli('It he would produce the sain{~les and
satisfy the cOliin0issioii that they were the origiiial saiiiples-that is in
the testiinoiiy~but when the inspectors came to briiig iii the samples,
I tliiiik olily oiie of them proved to be the original sainl)le. By original
saiiii)les, I mean the sami)les upon which tlie coiitract was awarded.
i~Ir. IIAI'P~is. They produced samples of the goods shil)pe(i?
~VITNisSS. Iii some cases. I will say here, iii additioii, that tlte in- 1 ectors who retained accidentally those samples have itow itothing to
Ao with tlie 1)epartment; are not iii the
lihe 1)OiIlt I wish to m~ke is this: ~~? heii I employ of the J)epartment.
api)lied to tlie Depaitment
or sainl)les of tlie supplies, I applied to the clerk of the Iiidi~n bureau 
110
who hns charge of the shippii~g supplies fiom New York. lie showed me
samples of the goods purchased this year.  ~Vhen I iuqnired of hiiii
where the samples were u~on which the ~oods of last year had becit
purchased, lie could give nie uo ii~formation defliiitely.  lie did not
know that any had becit retained, although lie had charge of shipping
the goods.  I then ~pplied to the Department, and I have a communication from them in which they refer me to this sample of flour retaiiied,
and said I could see that; but no other of the original samples were
known to be retained.  In New York that matter Caine up, and of tlie
samples then brought in, after Commissioner Smith liad said that he
would briiig the original samples, if I remember rightly, oniy oiie of
them, the coffee, was the origiiial sample on which tiie purchase was
made.  That is all down in the testiinoiiy, and I refer you to that.
By the CllAIPMAN:
Q. Professor, you siiy that this n-ia' French, at Cheyenne,`vl-o retained the sample of flour by direction of Commissioner Siiiitii, was "a
leading member of the Indiaii I~ing." Do you know whether Commissioner Smith knew that fi~ct or not ~
A. I do not.
(~.liow did you learn that French was a member of the Indian P~ing?
Did lie tell yon so?
A. lie did not tell me so, but I have know~ ~Ir. Frendi for quite %
nuniber of years.  I have been in Cheyenne a good deal, aiid I think I
have had a pretty good opportunity of knowing wlio are the leading men
itt the Indian rilig in Ch~venne.  I have no hesitation in saying, if there
is such a thing as an Indian 1~ing, that ~Ir. French is a prominent mcmber of it in Cheyenne.
~L~- ~~hat did you ever see him doing about Indian affairs?
A. lie was  Ul) at I~ed Cloud agency when I was there; with ~[r.
~fcCann, whom  I understand is his partiier.
Q. You understand he is a partner of AleC anti?
A. I nuderstatid so.  lie came up to tite agency with ~IcCann, and
was there part of the time during my visit.  I ha~l talks with hini theit
about Itid~an matters, as I had before, atid I have no hesitation iii saying that I deem my information reliable.
(~~ If Coin missioner Smith did not know Freii~~lt, nor know of his coti~iection with the Indian 1~itig, then liis request to itini to retaiii a saniple
of flour would not, to your utind, indicate Commissioner Siiiith's affinity
for the Indian i~ing, would it?
A. If he knew nothing of the relations of French to the store-keeper,
and the freight-contractor, atid the agent, then I have 110 hesitation in
saying it would not.
~Ir. Chairman, I now present, as evidence on tlie sugar-question, a
statement from the inspector. After our meeting iii New York, the
C~overnment inspector, ~Ir. Caleb B. Kneval, examined, iii New liaven,
the sample of sugar that I?ed Cloud gave me, and compared it with the
sample of the sugar which he shipped to I~ed Cloud agenQy.  I will
read the certificate:
NEw 1IA~~LN, Aegest 2, 1S75.
DEAR Sin: The sa~~ple of sugar sho~vu nic iiy yo,i to-dQv, which you inforn~ me w-is
iven you by Red Cloud to show to the President, 1 ii ave e;~refii1iy compared with the
sample of sugar reserved by`lie when it was shipped to Red Clond agency last year,
and 1 find it does not correspond, being of an iiifrrior grade and different from any of
the sugar shipped by me.
Yours, truly,
CALEB B. KNEVAL, Thspectoi'.
Prof. 0. C. MARSH. 
111
Now to the co~ee. I also lay before the commissioji tlie onginal samt~le of coffee which i~ed Cloud gave me, and I will say that I have cornpared it with the sample of the coffee on which the purchase was made,
aiid I find it essentially the same, so flir as the
{Preseiited sample of coffee.]            ~rains are concerned.
(? You did not find in the origii~al sample so maiiy black grains in so
small a quantity as you do here?
i~.I don't think I did. I present also a portion of the original sam~le
of tobacco that I~ed Cloud gave iiie.  [Presented san) pie of tobacco.]
(?.You say thit these poor Indians were "on tlie verge of starvatioi~
through the rascality of the Indian I~ing." Ilow do yon make that aphear, and who is the rascal?
~. I have iio additional testiniony on that subject.
~? Now, you say, Professor, thit "the supply of food purchased by
tlie (~overnment, carefl~liy and honestly delivered, would have prevented
all this suffering."  N\~hat ii~ibrmation have yon on that sui~ject, further
than yon have given us heretofore?
~~. I have nothing in addition.
(~.You caniiot say that any of the supplies of food purchased by the
(Aovernment were not delivered there?
A. Not of my own knowledge.
~~L 1)o you know of anybody else who has that knowledge?
A. I could not, at this moment, give you ally additionaf information
on that ~~oin~
(;? ~Yhen you state "that the Indian Bureau has for years, knowingly,
pa~d to a member of the Indian I~ing over fifteen thousand dollars per
<ililium for service that was liOt performed," have you any knowledge or
iliforination on that subject, other than you have given us heretofore,
g'~iiig to substantiate that charge?
A. The oiily additional point I can now give you 011 that subject is to
refer you to the report of ~Iessrs. I~emble and Alvord, who gi~e the
{listaiiee at lCjO miles, instead of 212. 1 have nothing iiiore beyond that
to ~~tfer.
Ijy ~Ir. llARpIS:
~&~ ~Vhere were your headquarters duriiig the period that you were
(1t P~ed Cloud agenQy before your departure for the bone-fields?
~. J\fy camp was just above Camp 1~obinson, on the ~Vhite I~iver.
~? 1Ii~w many ~~ersons were in your party besides your escort?
A.`Ilie party that caine on froin Fort Larainie consisted of General
i~r~dlQv, Lieutenant Ilay, his adjutant, Captain ~Iix and liis coinpaily
}f ca~-alrv, Colonel Staiitoii, tlie paymaster aiid his outfit, Mr. ~Volcott,
t~nited ~tates marshal of \Vyouiing Territory, and a few others.  ~Ve
ill camped together.
Q. Aiid your cain p was how far from the P~ed Cloud agency?
~. It was just above Camp I~obiiisou.
~? About a mile and a half?
A. Just about that.
Q. liow niany times did you go into the agency buildiiigs or any of
theiii?
A. I was there e~-ery day until I started off for the north.  I speiit
most of my time at the agency.
(~.~Vill you tell us whether or not among the military men there was
frequent reference to this flag-staff matter at that time?
A. There was especially, as it directly affected my expedition.
Q. As iar as you could judge, was there a feeling among the military 
112
officers that by that outbreak the military post as well as the agency
bad been put in peril?
A.I don't remember positively whether that point came up.  Of
course, Lieutenant Crawford and liis nien, who weiit up there, were ill
great daiiger, and amolig the ladies of the garrison there was great fear
of the Indians, because it was thought they were so numerous, while
the troops were so few, that they con id have swept the whole post away
in au hour if they chose.
(? So that there was a somewhat excited state of feeling or fear of the
Indians, both at the post and the agency?
A.I think there was, sir.
Q.Do you know whether either of the officers there said anything
about having made an arrangement with Savilie by which that flagstaff should be put up, or whether Saville and the conimauding officer
had made such an arrangement?
A.I heard nothing on that point.
Q.Did you hear a statei-uent to the effect that it was uiiderstood by
the commanding officer and Saville that it was proposed to put it up
upoii the bastion, as it is called, for tlie purpose of notifying the post if
any danger should occur.~
A.I did not hear that.
Q.In your judgment ought there i~ot to be some mode of communication between the two tilaces, the post and the agency, by telegraph,
or signal, or something of that kind ~
A.I should think it would be very proper.
- Q. Is it your idea that the error in that flag-staff matter was in the
attempt to put up a pole at all, or in not putting it up after he attempted
it-. You sleak of it as ati "act of folly," and of course his conduct
ought not to be put in a wrong light either way.  If the act itself was
a proper one he should have credit for it; if it was an improper one it
should stand as you put it.  NYhat do you now say about it~
A.~hei-e was nothing improper in itself in putting up something to
I~ut a flag or signal 01).  1 thiiik that would be a very good i~lea.  In my
judgineiit the fault consisted, first, in not ascertaining beforehand
whether there would l~e hostility 4iowu by the Indians if he attempted
such a thing, and, secondly, in not carrying out the undertaking wheu
once commenced.
By Mr. ATllERT0N:
Q.In regard to your first point, have y9u any meai~s of knowing what
pains he took, or whet her he took aiiy pains beforehaiid to ascert~~iu the
state of feeling amoug the India~is iii regard t() the proposed erection of
tlie flag-staff?
A.I 1) ave 110 means of judgiiig.
(~. ~Vell, would you count out the first point?  A.~o; because I thiiik the agelit should htve known the feelings of
tile Iiidians about a matter of that kind.
(~. Then you assume that he did not have any meaiis of knowing?
A.I do.
~~. ~~~hat l~nowledge ha~1 you of I~r. Saville's purpose in the erection
of the flag-staff?
A.Nothiiig definite.
~Ir. ATllLR~ToN. Now, Mr. Chairman, I should like to have it said to
I~rofessor ~Iarsh at tlte close of this examiiiitiou that we wonltl be very
glad if lie would gi\~e us as early as possible wilitever corroborative testimony he can oil aiiy of these t)oints. 
113
J~i'~~f~~sor ~IApSII. ~V1ien Dr. Bevier coii~es I~efore yOll lie will corrobor;lte soinc poiiit~`~ii(l if ~Ir. ~~lvord cO!H(?~ I SliOUl(I like to ~sk liiin
S()!1It questions biit 1)ossibiy liis ~t'4tt1i)ei1t which lie li~s sciit yon!iiay
covcr tlie ~~hole groiiiid.  ~~~lieii thesc ~vjf,nesses are
Iiavc a fcw n~ore poiuts to ndd, but iiot niaiiy. through, I nay
~~ftcr tlic tc~tiu)oiIX ~<is clO~c(i, Profcs~or ~Iarsli prcsciited iu ~vritincr
lit follo~viiig su1~itlcI11C1)tar~ statciiicnt
Iiirt~g:ird to witilcSS(?5 in tiie \~~est. I have 1)O'v 1)0 iiijr~ to ofler, altlitttigli ~`t~iiic tli;it I coii~idercd esl)cci;ill~ ii1~I)0rttut, for &xaJiil)le, (;en~r.il  loliii 1:,. ~niith, i~ev. S. I). 11iIini~ii, 1)i'. J. ir~viii, Li~ut. ~~~. 1~. Carlit~!1ter. J. ~. (jolliiis, and I~. E. Striliorn, the coinm'issioii did not find.
`rl~~~~~`vitliesses (ill have personal kiio'vledge of matter stated in iny
1~.'iiiij~li1ct, ~aiid I believe their testiiilony woulti have cleared up several
)()iiit5 Iit)~" in doubt.  Oiie other thing should, I think, go oil the record.
~`lit jiitllie!iCC of tlie Indiaii ring during tlie ilivestigation was so great
it ClicycliliC and (It the ageiicy that iii any who had iu{brinitioii dared
hot testify.  One witliess was ifraid eveii to write or telegrai~h to me dii'cctly. aiid was compelled to coii~niunicate through a fi-ieiid iii Oliama. Of
tlie seveli ex-em~~loye's at P~ed Clou~l ageiicy, whose names and addresses
I ~tve tlie com iiiissioii as witliesses, and wlio had much i)ersonal knowietl~e of the affairs at the agency during the last two years, only one
.t1~1tearc(l before the coiiin~issioii.  He had been re-employed by ~gent
~aville. and heiice was not inclined to testify against him.  The other six
ex.ein~)loye's who were kiiowii to have inforiiiatioii of n~ismanagement,
ii' iiot tr;ind, at the agency, were kept out of the reach of the commisSi()li, as I h'tve good reason to believe, by those iiiterested in concealing
tlie true state of affairs there.  These facts, in connection with the in'1iortant one that my visit to tlie ageliQy was unexpected and in a differeiit fiscal year from the visit of the coniiuissioii, are worthy of consideratioli.
FIFTll-AvLNUE llOTEL, NFw YORK,
~1~dnesday, July`~1, 1873.
I~reseiit: Hon. TuOMAS C. FLFTcllER, chairman, Hon. B. N\~. HAR
R[~~, aiid Hon. CuARLES J. FAULKNER.
TESTIMONY OF AAP~ON y. WILCOX.
I  resitle at 347 Fifth  ~veiiue. New York.  I have retired from busiiiess.  I have been iii tlie dry-goods busitiess iii New York for about
tliiity years.  I received aii al)poiutinent about the last of July, 1574,
t~) iiis1)CCt Iiidian goods.  I first ii)Sl)ected the general dry-goods here iu
New York.  I was then called to I)hiladell)hia, and inspected about
ei~lity-five bales of blaiikets.  I received a case of samples there from
`vIIi(~li tlie coli tract "-as given.  I e~aniiiiett those eighty-five bales for
st~veral differeiit tribes.  These first eighty-five bales were fully up te
tlie sliaples.  I saw this mark on tlie blaiikets, " L. S. I. D.," and coukl
iittt exactly understaiid liow it was put 01), but I suspected by acid.  I
tt)t)k ltaiiis to test their strength, fearitig that it might weakeii tlie blankt~t.  ~t that time it did not peiietiate thr~~ugh or iiito the thread.  The
l~l;iiiket was ~~erfectly strolig.  I asked J)t~bson liow lie (jid it.  I~is ans\v(U was, - 1'h;it is my s~~cret.   I foi)Ild none of them teiider Iroiti the
SIP 
114
marks at that time.  The blankcts were Up to the saInlAc in quality, Ul)
to tl~c l)roposals in weight, as I understood.  I saw them 11i(IikC(l and
shipl)ed.  I received bills of lading ai~d compared tlicn~ with the bills,
a'id they put the hills and bills of ladin~ iii to the h~nds of ~1n Smith's
clerk.  I caii~e to New York about the 1()tli of August and examined the
balance of dry-goods.  I then wciit back to Philadelphia about the 1st
of Septen~ber.  I examined tl~e balaiice thei~, about two huii~lred bales,
as near as I can rei~ember.  I foill0d, 011 commenciiIg the examination
tlie 1(1St time, that the blaiikets then delivered were not fully up to the
sample.  I examined these goods ii) a iuercaiitile point of view, as though
I was buying them for myself.  The blankets were as good for service as
the samile, but not til) to it in ainercanfile point of view.  The difference
was in the finish. The blankets were not properly teazled; the specs were
not cleaned out; they were not as clean as the saniples.   The size and
weight were fully up to the Government requirement.  The saml)les were
heavier than the proposals called for.  The goods furnished weighed up
to the requiremeiits of the Governn~ent contract, but IlOt Ul) to the sainples.  The blankets weighed up to tlie iiivoice.  I had samples of the
goods.  I was told what the co ii tract was.  I was told by the clerk of
the Commissioner what the weights required by the proposals were.  I
had Lot the coi~tract or proposals before me.  The clerk of the Coinmissioner told me verbally the weights requii-ed.  I should think on a lighter
blanket there was oiie~quarter of a pound difference between goods furnished and the sample; on a 6-pound blaiket about a half a I)onnd differeiice; on an S-pound blanket about three-quarters of a pound differ.
en ce-all less than sample.  In each case tlie weights were equal to the
in voice weights on the bill.  Tlie price was by the pound.  N\~hen I
noticed this difference in finish, I coinmuiiicated it to the Departn~ent
through this clerk.  The answer was, in substance, that if I thought
these blankets suitable for the purpose to accel)t tlieni, making proper
deductioiis from the price.  I thought tlie blaiikets just as goo~l for
service as the sample, atid claimed the deduction 01) account of mercantile v'Llue.  I think the deduction amounted to about.~5,OO() or over.  A
deductioii was ma~le on tlie last lot inspected-about two hundred.  That
deduction would n~ake them fully up to the sample in quality, in a mercantile point of view.  They were up in weight, as I un~lerstood it and
as I was told by tlie clerk.  The Government pr~~posals showed the
weights; the samples furiiished me showed the quality. In a mercantile
poii~t of view, in proposals by the Government for blankets weighiiig 5,
6, 7 and S pouiids, if the blankets are delivered that weight aiid correspoiid in quality with the saniples ft~rnished, they shoul(l be entirely
satisflictory to tlie Government, especially if paid for by tlie pound.
The mark in the center, "U. S. I. D.," seemed to have heel) recentl~ l)ut
01).  The last lot were niade within thirty 4 O:Y5   I examined the mark
careiull~, ha~iiig some fear that it niight injuic tlie blanket.  I exani
ined ihe goods to see if the inarkin~ had niade the blaiiket tender, and
touiid it had not.   The colors were blue, white, sea rlet, and greeli.
Probably the secoiid lot were marked after I examiiie~I the first lot.
None of the second lot were in the s{ore when I exaiuiiied the first, as
I uiiderstood.  Tlie first }ot "ere shipped iii a(l~ ailce ot the s~coIi(l,
because they had to go a ~ieatci distaiice. Tlie last   was being shi~~ped
from  tlie 1st to tlie`~Oth of September.  Some of tlie blankets were U1) tO
the sami)le iii fiiiish; some were iiot.   ~ll caiiie up to tlie -~aiiil)le iii ~ize.
I t bin k in this ca -~e the size of blankets increase~i as tlie weight did.
~u each sample there was a ticket with tlie ~~eiglit ii~arked on it, and
the goods received correspoiided to the mark.  ~aml)le blaiikets weic 
115
heavier than the mark on the ticket.  I was guided by the ticket and
by what the clerks said.  The ticket on the sample guided me as to the
weight, and the sample as to quality.  The bills of lading will show
where they were shipped to. It. it is made to appear that holes came
where these marks were, the acid, in my opiuion, may have done it.
Thc niark was only on the iiap of the wool, and did not penetrate the
tl~read.  I examined the blaiikets with a microscope to fully determine
the quality. ~hey were a remarkably good lot, at a low price, and could
iiot have been bought in the market at the price they were delivered.
I don't know how the marks were put on, whether with a~id or not.
The first twenty years that I was in business I imported and dealt
largely in blankets.  I think my knowledge of blankets is as good as it
ever was.  flaving been instructed to make the proper deduction, I was
also instructed to call in some other person if I thought necessary. I
di(l call ill another gentleman, who inspected goods in Philadelphia.  I
don't remember his name.  This instruction, I understood through Mr.
Hayden, came from Commissioner Smith.  I got a discount of $900 or
so iu red~fiannel shirts in the same way that I got a discount on
blankets.  There was a deduction of about 5 cents a yard on a large
lot of ~Iilton cloth from a firm iii llartford; also 16 cents apiece on red
shirts from Chafilin & Co., New York, a month or two afterward, equal
in service, but not up to the sample iii finish. I called in a man from
i)evliu & Co., large dealers in shirts.  ~Yhen I discovered that the shirts
varied, I suspended operations niitil I got ilistructious from the clerkwhich I naderstood were from Commissioner Smith-to accept them if I
thought them equally serviceable, making the proper dednction for lack
of quality n shirts.
TESTI;\[ONY OF WILLfAM A. ROBINSON.
I live at 261 Putnam avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y.  I am a dealer and
inanufi~cturer of tot~acco at 1~2 Water street, and have been in the
business about eighteen years.  Oii the 3(1 of July, 1~74, I was called
upoii to inspect tobacco foi tlie Goveriiment by F. II. Smith, as I afterward learned, not being acquainted with him then.  I was called upon
to go up and examine samples; I looked over as many as one hundred
a'i~l reduced the in down to seven saml)les, and then reduced the seven
to two.  I theii told those present, (f knew none of them,) that those
two pieces were suitable goo~ls; weic fine quality, and would keep in
(`-lily climate.  i~fr. Smith S(i~(l he would take both lots, some of each.  I
did iiot know the owners of aiiy of the samples.  Samples, as I understood, were furnished by those bidding to fui'uish the goods for the Indiails; I then lear;~ed that one saml)le was made by P. Lorillard & Co.~ of
New Yoi~k, and the other by l)ohaii Carroll & Co., of New York.
Abotit the last of July I was notified to come to tiie Indi'tn warehouse
iii this city.  I went, and was told that the tobacco to be furiiished by
J) Lorillard & Co. was ilow reitly for delivery; I was notified to have
~ stencil cut, with niy iiame as ilispector of sup~~lies; the stencil cut was
~V. A. Robinsoti, inspector of sul)lilies, August J7, l~74."  I wetit to
[he factory of P. Lorillar~l & C()., and exaiiiiiied tlie tobacco furnished
hey gave n~e the san~~~le ()ii which the bid was accepted; I have the
~rigiiial sainI)le here; I saw the tol~acco manufactured, at the re{luest
~f U. Lo~llar~l & Co., aii~l was at the factoi'y every two d'iys; I examned two hundred ai~d one bo~es of manufactur&~d tobacco, 20,S~O 
116
pounds; 46 packages, 5,000 pounds, ~ marked and shipp3d to the
Comauches and Kiowas; 14 packages, 1,S00 pounds, I shipped to the
N\~achitas; 6 boxes, 400 pOUfl(iS, to the Uintas; 5 boxcs, 30~ ponn~1s, to
the Los Piiias; 10 boxes, 600 pouiids, to the White I~iver agelicy; 37
boxes, 4,000 ponnds, to the Cheyen~es aud Ar~pahOeS; ~3 boxes,
9,000 pounds, to the Nav'~OeS.  All of this froni P. Lorillard & Co.  I
took out bills of ladiiig and saw all shipments myself; I got the invoices
from P. Lorillard & Co. examined, and ft~u'~d then~ to compare
with my account within half a pound  I accepted it; I weighed every
box; I turned over the invoices with my cettificate of examiuftion
attached to each invoice.  [Mr. Robinson here produced a draught of
certificate of examination.}  About the middle of August I was told to
examine tobacco furnished by Dolian Carroll & Co.  The san~ple produced here has been in my safe. wrapped up iii a paper, since my examination.  Sample produced is sample of tobacco furnished.  It is better
than the tobacco on which the bid was made.  I had a sa-~ple on which
bid was made furnished n~e by the Indian Department, which I returned
to them with sample of tobacco flirnished. Tobacco sent to a dry climate will not become wet; a dry cliiiiate is very favorable for the preservation of tobacco.  About the mi~ldle of August, 1874, 1 was notified
to come to the departinent at iNew York, to get Dohan Carroll & Co.'s
sample and examine tobacco. I exaniined these goods as follows: 89
boxes, 7,000 pounds, for ~Vhetstone Sioux; 76 boxes, 6,000 pounds, Grand
River Sioux; 13 boxes, 1,000 pounds, Santee Sioux; 25 boxes, 2,000
pounds, Yankton S~oux; 38 boxes, 3,000 pounds, Upper Missouri Sioux;
13 boxes, 1,000 pounds, Arickaree Sioux; 50 boxes, 4,000 pounds, Blackfeet, &c.; 38 boxes, 3,000 pounds, Crows; 9 boxes, 700 pounds, Poncas;
64 boxes, 5,000 pounds, Sioux Fort Peck; 89 l~oxes, 7,000 I)ounds, Red
Cloud Sioux; 15 boxes, 1,200 pounds, Sisseton Sioux; iii all, 520 boxes,
40,900 pounds. I examined, weighed, tared, shipped, and took the bills
of lading myself.  Went to the pier and saw it done.  I shipl)ed Red
Cloud tobacco by Union Line, marked thus: "J. J. Saville, U.S. agent,
Red Cloud agency, via Omaha and Cheyenne.  Union Line, care of C. F.
F. line, Chicago.  (Pier 38 North River.)" Whetsone Sioux, Spotted
Tail "B. A. lloward, U. S. agent, Ft. Randall, Da., via N. Y. & llndson River R. R., care Ward's Liiie, Buffalo, via Duluth aiid Sioux City.
(Shipped at St John's Park, N. Y.)" The sample of tobacco shipped to
Red Clond agency here produced is a fair sample from oi~e of the boxes.
The whole shipn~ent was equal in quality.  It is a very nice piece of
tobacco for the money, 47 or ~~A cents per pound; souiid and merchantable tobacco; sold 100 boxes of the same quality for 50 cents per pound
afterward.  The Indian Department were very fortunate iii their parchase last year, in way of price-first quality of navy tobacco.  Nineteen-twentieths of the tobacco made in this country and consumed here
is navy tobacco.  In tlie South we lose the percentage.  It is either
smoking or chewing tobacco; used for chewing as well as for smoking
t~bacco; very strong, heavy tobacco; all dark tobacco like this;
noi~e of it was light.  I saw the tobacco all the way through tiie manufacturing and boxing.  I examined oiie box in twelity, takeii at raiidom.
This is called black navy tobacco, 12-inch plug-12 by 3.  All of that
sl~ipped by me was 12 by 3. The moisture in this tobacco, when taken to
a dry climate, ought to dry out, become hard-not much in winter. Licorice
and sugar are used to sweeten.  It is impossible that a fair sample of
this tobacco, three months after it was shipped to Red Cloud agelicy by
me, in a dry climate, would, when broken open, contain liquid that would
drip out.  I kiiow of no way to produce such a result-unless it were 
117
wet.  The ontside wonld be likely to pnff up wheti wet.  I never saw
any tobacco, which, when broken open, would drip a liqnid.  It isn't
possible; can't rot tobacco; never heard of any such thing.  It will
mould bnt not r~~t.  ~~~ater will damage it; should not be kept where it
is damp.  I would have selected dryer tobacco to be sent to the Indians
because they use it oul~ for smoking.  Tobacco sweetened with sirnp or
n~olasses is likely to sour in a warm climate, and will often sonr in a
teml)erate clitnate.  None of the tol~acco shil)ped and examined by me
was sweetej~e~l with sirup or`nolasses, but was sweetenel with the best
of licorice ind sugar.
TESTIMONY OF CALEB B. KNEVAL.
I reside at No. 122 East Thirty-sixth street, New York City.  I was,
in 1874, a merchant; ain now comptroller of Woodlawn Cemetery. I
was asked by Commissioner Smith, through a clerk or some other
person for him, if I would be williiig to decide the bids on sugar and
coffee.  I was unacqnainted with the Commissioner or the gentleman
who came to`0)e.  lle asked ine if I was interested in any way in bids,
and was familiar with qualities of sugar and coffee.  I said I was
not interested iii bids; was familiar with sugar and coffee.  This was
about July, 1874.  1 took with ine Mr. Barr, of the firm of llowell
Barr & Co., dealers in coffee &c.  I had no difficulty in determining the
bi(ls on sugar.  Found one sample (11. K. Thurber & Co.) was cheapest,
aiid accepted the whole that offered, only a small portion of the amount
required.  Balance from E. C. Knight & Co., of Philadelphia, refinerslike the sample here shown- average sample of whole lot and variation
from best to poorest not more than oii c-quarter cent a pound.  Commissioncr Smith asked me to see that all sugar and coffee shipped correspoii~led exactly with the samples accepted, after the bids were accepted
J~y iie, to which I assented.  E. C. Knight told me the sugar was ready
for delivery, also II. K. Thurber & Co.  Received shipping-directions
froin ~Ir. Smith's clerk, and went to II. K. Thurber & Co.'s store, also to
Phil;idel~~hia, to Knight's refinery, and there personally superiiitended
the sliip1)ing of every package of sugar-saw that it corresponded with
sainl)lcs.  Examined packages at various times during the process of
delivery ai~d had at least 20 per cent. of the packages put on the scales
to kiiow that they were correct. In iny opinion the sugar delivered was
full~ one.eighth of a cent per pound better than the sample accepted.
Ba~'li barrel bore on it the brand of the refinery-Knight & Co.
Bach package was marked under my own supervision, for the different agencies; marked with stencil-plate, with full shipping-directions.
"liispected by C. B. Kneval" was put on each package.  Sugar
shi~~ped by me from II. K. Thurber & Co. fully came up to sample.  The
refiiier's brand was upon each barrel. Full shipping-directions on
Thurber's, under my own supervision.  Twenty per cent. at least was
weighed.  I saw the shipping-receipts returned, signed by shipping.
company's ageiits.  I saw every barrel oli the car, a~~d counted theni
myself.  In receiving instructions I was told to do as I would in my
own case; as though I was receiving them for myself.  In all this matter
I was struck with the pureness of the whole matter.  There was no
effi~rt made by anybody to control me in any way.  I was iiot acquainted
with ai~ybody connected with the Indian affitirs.  I was a large dealer
in sugar.  At the time the award was made I received a letter from ~Ir. 
118
Smith, asking for the value of coffee at that time.  The coffee sent by
Mr. Smith would favorably compare with the sample.  The price of this
coffee was ~22.10 per 100 pounds, a low pHee for this coffee at the time
of inspection. Most of the coffee sold in this neighl~orhood is roasted and
ground and sold to the deal ers in that form. Most of tiiecoffee used by the
roasters is of this grade and below it.  Never having bad anythiug to
do witb Government matters before, I was expecting some one to suggest
something in somebody's favor; but nothing of the kind occurred.
There was abont 4,000 barrels inspected by me for the Government, only
about 150 barrels of which came from Thurber.  The sample prodnced
here is a sample of the sugar furnished.  Samples upon which bids
were accepted I have not iu my possession now, but the samples here
shown are one-eighth per cent. better than the sample on which the
purchase was made, showing the delivery to be one-eighth per cent.
better than the bid.  Some of the sugar, I remember, was marked for
the I~ed Cloud agency; I cannot say what proportion, but think a considerible part of it.  This is a sample of the coffee inspected by Mr.
Barr aiid myself.  Mr. Barr is a disinterested party and a man of experience and good judgment as a coffee-dealer.  fle is a neighbor of mine,
and at my request inspected the coffee.  Mr. Arnold, of the firm that
fnruished the coffee, can give yon information.  lIe st'tuds at the very
top of the trade.
TESTIMON Y OF TllOMAS T. BARR.
I reside at 273 Carl ton avenue, Brooklyn; I do business at 114 Water
street, New York.  I am a member of the firiit of llowell, Barr & Co.,
dealers in sirup, coffee, and molasses.  In July, 1874, I was asked to
examine samples of various grades.  I went up to In~lian office and
examined samples.  Mr. Smith asked me to select the best goods for the
purpose, and I took the coffee of which this is a sample.  I graded it as
good-ordinary.  I was sent for as an exI)ert.  This is a sample on which
bid was made and accel)ted.  Some coffee was offered to be delivered at
some Indian agency out West four cents less than could be furnished
for gold iii New York, San Francisco, or Saint Louis.  We thought it
could nOt be done; thought it an indication of fraud, and rejected it. The
contiact was given to B. G. Arnold & Co. I was sked to make selections
on acceptation of bid by the Government. I was told that they had the
contract, and was notified to select such coffee as would conform with
the sample.  I selected such coffee as conformed with the sample, so far
as they had it.  Then the balance of the contract was made up by mixing the different grades.  After selecting such samples, they mixed it.
I then sampled each lot that conformed to the sample, and then sampled the mixture. The coffee selected from B. G. Arnold & Co. was from
one-eighth to one-fourth of a cent better than the sample.  The whole
lot averaged that much better. Coffee, after being selected, was weighed
and put aside till wanted. I k~iew it was the same coffee I had selected,
and saw that it was weighed and shipped as per order of Indian Depnrtinent.  I checked bills and weigh-master's statements.  Next to the
poorest grades imported aie graded from good-ordinary to fair.  Large
1~ortion of coftbe imported is medium grade.  It is possible to pick out
imperfrct grains of this lot of coffee, and out of all coffee of this grade.
Of this sample, it is fair to suppose one-fourth of it would be imperfect
grains.  That does not render the coffee uninerchantable; its drinking 
119
qualities are not seriously iinl)aired. I received a letter fiom Mr. Siiiitlt
asking for value of coffee at the tiiue the award was made.  The coffee
sent by Mr. Smith would favorably compare with the sample.  The
of this co~I$e({o%% $;7i\On tPii's      a low price for this cof
and &~0ld to the dealers in that form.  ~1ost of the coffee used by roasters is of this grade and below.
OMAllA, NEBRASKA, T~es&ty, fitly 27, 1875.
Preseut, Hon. T ilOMAS C. FLETellER, chairmau; 11011. CllARLES I.
FAULKNER, and Ho ii. B. W. HARRIS.
TESTIMONY OF BARCLAY WHITE.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Qnestioii. Mr. White, what is your business ~
Auswer. Superintendent of Indiau affairs in the Northeru Superintendency.
Q. State, ~Ir. ~~ hite, if at any time you have inspected any flour
iiitei~ded for the Red Cloud agency, or for any of the Indians iii the
West.
A. I have inspected flour ror Red Cloud agency; and also for the
Shoshone atid Baunack agency,~uuder charge of Mr. James Irwiii.
Q. The Red Cloud agency is under charge of Mr. Saville?
A. Yes, sir; Dr. J. J. Saville.  My first connection with the inspection of flour was under instructions contained in a letter from the Cornmissioner of Iiidian Affairs, dated August 1, 1874, of which this is the
original:
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, OFFICE OF INDIAN A~r~ius,
~Veshington, D. C., August 1, 1874.
Sri: Tl~ere ore certan Indian supplies to be delivered at Omaha during the year for
Red Cloud agency.  The contractors will be uotified to call Upon you for the proper
inspection and certificate.
If you are not sufficiently acquainted with the nature of supplies to perform the
uspection, you will please find some competent person ill Omaha whose services may
be secured when required.  For such services he will be eutitled to receive $5 per day.
All goods should be plainly marked "Indian Department," and each package, sack, or
barrt~l mi~st hear your marks of inspection.  You will provide yourself with the necesa'ary iiui~leiuents for such branding or stenciling.
Certificates as per accompanying blanks, filled by the inspector, should be delivered
to the parties entitled to receive the sajiie, anil a duplicate forwarded to this Office.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant
E. P. SMITH,
Coa~missioner.
BARcLAY ~VIIITE, Esq.,
~ij~e~~iuteudeut of ludian Affairs Oniaha, ~~br.
That was a general appointinent.  It did not specify any particular
supplies.  I received afterward, under date of September 14, 1864, 111structiorts specifying a particular lot of flour to inspect for i~ed Cloud
ageuQy. This is tbe letter
DEPAwrMENT OF TIlE INTERIOR, OFFICE OF INDIAN AFFAIRs,
!Vashiugtna, D. C., ~~ptembcr 14, 1874.
S~~: Twenty-five thousand sacks of flour for the Red Cloud agency are to be shipped
from Omaha within a few days by 0. P. Hurford. The transportation of this flour is
already provided for.
The service required of you is to attend to the inspection, to be satistied that the
flour is in accordance with the~sample which Mr. Hurford has in his possession and will 
120
fi~rnish you on application, and that it is branded "Indian Departi~ent" by the conti-actor, ai~d bas the required mark of inspection by the party whom you employ for
this s~rvice. Hurford is informed of the manner of inspection, and will call upoii you
when lie is ready for service.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
EDN\~. P. SMITH,
Co ni in i6sion Cr.
I~~icLA~ ~VIiiTE,
~n1)cri?itend()tit of Indian Affair8, Onialia, ~cbi~.
I will here explain that "twenty-five thousand" sacks of flour is a
clerical error; it appeared afterward that twenty-five hundred was the
number meant.  I called upon Mr. llnrford, and lie furnished me with a
sample of flour.  A portion of that sample is in that package, marked
No. 1.  [Ilanding the chairman a package.J  By that sample my deputy,
who has been in the service of the Office some five years, and has been
a forwarder of Indian goods, which is a portion of my duty also-my
deputy inspected for Red Cloud agenQy 2,749 sacks of flonr, weighing
25,944 pounds.  All of that flour was inspected by that sample, with
the exception of somewhere about one car-load of 2(),()0() pounds, or
somewhere about two hundred sacks.  After inspecting for some time
by th(9t sample, Mr. llurford, the contractor, called upon me again with
~nother sample, a portion of which is in that package, ii~arked No. 2.
the chairman another pack~ge.i  lle stated that the boys in
his mill had given the sample better than that he had bid npoii, and he
thought this (No. 2) was nearer the mark.  I oi~ccted to the sample as
being, in my opinion, below XX flour, which I noticed the commissioners liad advertised to receive bids npon.  I demurred to receiving it, and
told my deputy to be very careful and not grade down to that sample.
About the time that these two hundred sacks had been inspected below
sam pie No. 1 and by No. 2, B. Rush Roberts, a member of the Board of
Indian Commissioners, came to my office.  Roberts is a miller by profession, and he was present when the bids were received at New York,
as a member of the Board of Indian Commissioners.  I immediately
told him my fears that that sample was below the grade of flour intended to be furnished by the commissioners.  I threw it out.  I notifled i~Ir. liurford that no more flour would be received below sample No.
1.  ~T1-e samples were also marked A and B.J
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. flow niuch had been received then?
A. I had received then, on tlie first of October, when Roberts arrived,
(I think on the very flrst day of October,) about one
Q. I mean how much of this second grade of flour had you inspected?
A. About one car-load; a little over two hundred sacks.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. That had been inspected aiid received ul~on sample No. 2?
A. Yes, sir.  My deputy says that the only diffbrence between that
received on No. 2 and that received on No. 1 was that it was taken np
closer- it was manuf~ctured from equally as sound wheat, but it was
taken up too close; it was too dark.  That one car-load is all that has
been ii~spected for Red Cloud agency below tlie grade of sample No. 1,
which I have deposited.
Q. The flour that you inspected in September, 1574, for Red Cloud
age ii cy by these samples was shipped to where?
A. That flour was delivered to the officers of the Union Pacific Railroad for delivery to McCann, the contractor, for transportation.
Q. Where? 
121
A.lle had the contract for the delivery of all goods, all Indian goods
or supplies, to Red Cloud agency.
Q.From where~
~A. First from the eastern cities-New York, Pliiladel pliia, and, I
~ think, Baltimore-but I am not certain of that.  lie was the contractor
for the transportation of all Indian goods from  the easterii cities to
Omaha, and most of the Indian goods, with tlie exception of those des    tined to Red Cloud agenQv, were then consigned to me.  I have been in
the practice, ever since I have been in this office, in forwarding goods on
the Union Pacific and all western roads
Q.~Vbere was it to be delivered?
A.Probably at Cheyenne.  That is the point of receptio~~ of all goods
for Red Cloud agency.
Q.To be delivered to f~IcCann?
A.It was delivered here to the freight-officer by me for delivery to
McCann as contractor.
Q.You understand that i~IcCann's co'itr~~ct was to deliver goods from
Cheyenne'.
A.No; his contract at first was for ship~~iug goods from eastern
cities-annuity-goods from eastern cities to On~aha; that is, all Indian
goods and annuity-goods for the Red Cloud agency to Cheyenne.
~Vhether it went farther than Cheyeniie I do not know.  ~~hea I com    menced inspecting fl~is flour I made requisition oii the Union Pacific
Railroad Company for transportation for several car-loa~ls of it to Chey.
enne. The Government inspector at Cheyenne-no, it was Mr. ~IcCann
himself at Cheyenne-notified me that he had a contract for carryilig
goods and supplies to Cheyenne.  I wrote to hiin that I was instructed
to inspect and forward upon Governuient requisition this flo~ir, and
should do it until otherwise onlered by the Commissioner of Indiaii
Affairs.  I was afterward notified by letter tl~at an arrangemeiit had
been made to deliver this flour to Contractor ~IcCann-to deliver these
supplies for Red Cloud agency to McCann-and it was done so after    ward, or at least I delivered them to the freight-agent of the Union Pa    cific road, to be delivered to ~~Cann.  That was my understanding of it.
- Q. You have had these saniples in your possession ever sii~ce the
inspection?
A.Ever since.  I took them to-day from the botHes in which thev
were first placed when brought to inc by Contractor liurfont.  They
have been ill my possession ever since.
By Mr. RARRIS:
Q ~Vas all the other flour Ul) to saml)le No. I ~
A. All of it.  In this connection I will further state that every sack
of flour which I inspected was iiispected; every sack was I~robed and
tried; every sack was stenciled "Indian I)epartment.  Barclay N\~hite,
U. S. Iii spector." My full name was placed UJ)OU every sack inspected
by nie.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. ~Vere you satisfied about the weight of ea~h sack?
A. The weights were made in presence of my d~~puty, who ~`~5 satisfied
about the weights.  The weights of these sacks varied.  Soiiie of them
were 8$-pound sacks; that is, some of them contained each SS pounds
of flour.  Most of them were of that character.  -~ sack of flour is gen     erally 100 pounds gross.  These were about 90 ~oiinds gross, the ma     jority of them.  ~1y inspection-certificate always contained the number
of sacks and the weight. 
i3y the CllAIR~iAN:
Q. The ~flSPCction-certificate was given for the aggregate weight of
tlie tiotir ilispeeted at the t~fflt?
~. Tlie weight always, an~1`ilso the ilufl)ber of sacks.  It was all
weighed at the depot, aii~l ~i1&~~CCLed aiid braiide~l.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. \Vas there any explanation of tlie discrepancy between the nuni
ber of sacks and their aggregate weight after inspection ~
A. The (liscrepancy in the number of sacks was explaiiied in thi~
way: ~tr. liurford sul)plied car-load after car-load of sacks weighiiig
90 pouiids; when lie caiiie to the eiid of liis number of sacks he stated
that, aithongli lie had supplied the nuniber of sacks, he was short of
weight.  I told liii~ that I was authorized to inspect " twelity-five
thoiisajid sacks,' that that was evidently a clerical error, and although
I snpI)osed it n~eant twenty-five hundred sacks, an~t as a hnn~lred l)ounds
was tiie weight of a sack.' if he thought it was necessary to complete
tlie amount of weight I was J)erfectiy saf~-if he thought he was safe
for his moIiey~as regards my insti-uctions, and I had no hesitancy to
inspect ~7)(),OOO pounds, which would be the weight of two hundred
an~l fifty sacks, and which I sllpposed was evideiitly what tiie Cornmissioiier inteiided.  Be even exceeded that amoujit.  I said I supposed
that was the amount intended in that contract for the Red Cloud agency,
and as to his moiley that was a matter for him to look out ~br.  But,
as I have said, he even exceeded that amoujit.
By the CHAIRMAN:
(?.~Yhat was the Correct amount ~
~. Two thousand seven huii~lred and forty.iiiiie sacks were shipped.
Q. ~%ighing how mitch iii tlie aggregate ~
A. Two hundred and fifty thousand nine hundred and forty-four
pouiids.  llere is the detailed statement:
Flour in~pected for Red Cloud ageucy-( 0. P. Hu~ford'~ couI)-uct.)
Pounds.
Scpternbcr 24.~237 sacks                          - - - 20, ~56
{}0~zf~02 s5a~c~ks5                             41,53C~
22,000
~0.-250 sacks                                  22, 000
october  15.-250 s~acks                                 22,000
}~;z}{~{)20 ~~ccks                              22,000
22, 000
`J~:9i;Z324%0 sSk%c~kss                         22,000
3;~, ()52
Noveaber 27.-2;30 sacks                                 22,900
2,749 sacks...                                 250944//~
After Mr. B. Rush Roberts, member of the Indian coin mission
turned to his home, he sent nie a bug letter, which I have here, dat$d
Sandy Spring, Md., Eleventh month 4th, 1874, in relation to a great
many ~lifferent subjects, and in which lie writes this: "In relation to
inspection of flour at Omaha, the Commissioner appears to see some intention to cheat in the matter, and asked if any had been passed lower
in grade than the first sample produced.  My reply was, that I believed
not.  I have not yet seen the coiitract, bitt the Coniniissioiier says it is
for the best flour, and nothing below that should be received.  If the
flour to go to tite Slioshones has not all been sent forward, I would not
mark any that was below the sample in niy office.  That is the best
sam plc.' 
123
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. ~Vhat else does that letter contain?
A. It contains a great variety of matter entirely for~ign to this subject.
That passage which I have read is all that relates to this flour.
Q. Does it relate to any possible frauds upon the Indians I
A. Nothing of that kind at all.  It is a general Indian letter; you are
at liberty to read it if you think you might find anything applicable to
your purpose in it.
i~Ir. HARRIS. It is well enough for us to see it.
Yrr~~ss. Here it is.  [Handing tlie letter to ~[r. Harris.  After that
~~spected 1,129 sacks, weighing 111,092 pounds, for Jaiiies Irwin at
the Shoshone and Bannack agency.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. ~rhO was that flour delivered by?
A. It was delivered by 0. P. Hurfbrd, and was inspected entirely
upon the sample No. 1 that I have placed in your hands.
Q. And did all of it come up to that sample in grade?
A. All of it.
Q. ~~here was that shipped to?
A. Shipped to Bryan, a station on the Union Pacific P~ailroad.
Q. To the care of whom, and to be delivered to whom I
A. That was shipped upon Government requisition made by myself.
Q. To be delivered to whom I
A. Delivered to tlie order of James Irwin.  He receipts Ul)Oil tlie bills
of lading for his goods.
Q. That was not to be transported by wagon?
A. No. I will remark in connection with this, if it is not out of place,
that Mr. Irwin has just now within a few days, entered into a contract
with the saiiie party, 0. P. Hurford, ror his supply of flour for the pres  ent year; and he has riot made one word of complaint, as far as I have
heard, in regafd to the quality of the flour sent him last year.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Let me ask you here who your agent is who weighed and inspected
the flour?
A. The subinspector?
Q. Yes?
A. ~~llliam J. Yates, an elderly gentleman, a member of the I~pisco  pal church in this place, and who has been a miller and a store-keeper.
He personally inspected all of it.  He has beeii connected for five years
in my office as freight-shipper; he is employed, as I need his services,
by the day.
By the CllAIRMAN
Q. Is he in the city I
A. Yes, I think it is likely; he is in this house, probably.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. So that iii point of fact this is his inspection rather than yours?
A. It is not his iuspection.  I am responsible for the iiispection, and
he inspects it nuder my personal inspection.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. ~Vere you preseiit at the time lie inspected it?
A. I have been present at various tinies aiid satisfied niyscl( that his
inspection was proper. It is too much responsibility to leave it eiitirely
to another person. 
Q. Do you know anYtliing about any other supplies besides the flour?
A. I have inspected corn for that agency during the same year.
The CHAIR~AN. There has been 110 complaint, I believe, about corn.
Mr. liARRIS. I do not know ex~tctkv what the complaint was, but
there ~`~5 a bitter complaint last ye~4r, that the Commissioner or somebody had exchanged flour for corn in fi~lfillment of a contract. That is
to say, the contract called for flour, and at the request or suggestion of
somebody, a certain quantity of corn was substituted for a certain quantity of flour. It was alleged that in that transaction there was some
fraud upon the Indians
V\~~TNLss. I inspected 3,672 sacks of corn weighing 49(),240 pounds.
Q. About what time was that inspected?
A. The first inspectioji was August 21, 1874; the last, January 16,
1875.
Q. Was all that shipped to Red Cloud agency?
A. That was all shipped to Red Cloud agency; or rather, it was all
delivered to the freight-officer in the same manner as the flour.
Q. For Red Cloud agency?
A. For Mn McCann to ship to Red Cloud agency.  I have a copy of
the contract here if you desire to see it.
By the CllMR~AN:
Q- Was that contract made upon proposals?
A. Yes, sir. [Copy of the contract shown.]
Q. And the corn was delivered by J. T. Granger?
A. Yes, sir; or for him. That corn was all inspected according to the
printed proposals for supplies, and 1ny certificate of inspection was
worded in that way.
Q. The corn was of the quality required by the contract?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether in transporting this corn McCann transported it by the number of sacks or by the weight?
A. I do not know anything about that.  I know only tliis, I audited
the freight-accoun~~ of the Union Pacific Railroad for tiie transportation
of the Indian supplies; I audited them in my office. Their bills invariably came in for weight so far as I have audited them.
Q. Do
flour?  you know whether you audited the bills for transporting this
A. I have not seen them; I have not audited any of McCarni's bills;
they do not come to my office.
Q. What accoujits of tlie Union Pacific Railroad did you audit?
A. I audited all the accounts for transportatiou of Indian goods and
supplies transported upon Government requisition.
Q. Didn~ you make the Government requisition for the transporta
tion of this flour from Omaha to Cheyenne?
A. I did for a few car-loads, at first.  I afterward called upon the
freight.officer for a return of my requisitions after I was notified thaj
McCann was to ship that flour. They were not returned.  lle said th~~
were of no use; whether in my possession or his; that they would have
to go through my office, if they were paid, for audit, aiid I could stop
them there. They have never appeared.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Did you inspect any other articles?
A. I inspected no other articles for Red Cloud agency but the flour
and the corn. 
125
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Was the corn good, safe, merchantable corn ~
A. It was good, safe, merch~ntable corn; it was n'~ther a superior
article.
Mr. HARRiS, (after having read the long letter handed hiu~ by the
witness.) I don't see, Mr. Chairman, that there is anything whatever of
interest to us in this letter except the passage that has been read.
Q. If there is anything else that occurs to you in relation to these mat.
ters we would like to have you state it.
A. I will state that, although it does not come to me ofticially, I have
been informed that this flour has been inspected again at Ch~yenne.
One of my letters stated that Colonel Long-whether he is an Army inspector, or who appoints him I d~ not know-but I have been incidentally informed by correspondence from there that this flour had
been inspected again at Cheyenne by Colonel Long.
Q. J)oes your information say whether it was all received?
A. I have no information except that of Mr. llurford, who is here
present, and who probably has better means of knowing that than I.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Is this (Omaha) the place where the flour for the Red Cloud
agency is generally inspected, or Cheyenne?
A. I can hardly auswer that question. There has been considerable
inspection of supplies at Council Bluffs heretofore, but to what extent I
am not able to say. I know that Mr. Clarkson, in 1873, inspected supplies at Council Bluffs.  He is brother to the bishop in this place.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. What do you say of the quality of that No. 1 flour as compared
with what is called good merchantable flour-XX flour?
A. I should say, as far as my knowledge of flour goes, that it was a
- fair sample. I cannot positively say whether it is np to XX. I am not
familiar with ~ll these trade qualities, and I am not able to say that it
is fully up to XX.
-The CllMRMA~ We have the sample, and we will have some experts
to speak about that.  If there is anything more, Mr. White, that you
oould give us information about, or anything that would put l~ in the
way of getting at the truth of these matters, we would liLe to have you
state it.
WITNESS. Red Cloud agency is out of my line of business; I have
very little intercourse with any of the business of the agency. I have
heretofore-previous to last year-always shipped upon Government
requisition the supplies, or at least the annuity goods, to Cheyenne, and
there has been a great deal of complaint on account of McCann's transportation contract. I have had trouble myself with his want of promptness in filling his contract.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. For the transportation of what was it that yott were caused inconvenienee?
A. His detention of payment of freights here for goo~ls that came
into my hands at this point.  He contracts to pay freights upon tl~em
east of this point, and there are goods now lying at Council Bluffs, and
the freight~officers are writing to me continually to know about them.
McCann contracts to pay the freight upon them to this point; som of
them probably I will have to ship upon Government reqnisitio~, others
he has the contract for shipping to points westward; but there are go~~ds 
now, an~l have been for weeks, lying at Council Bluffs that s'~ould be
delivered at this point.
By Mr. BARRIS:
Q. ~Vhat kind of goods do you mean, supplies or annuity gootls ~.
A. I l)resume they are annuity goods.
Q. There has been some complaint that the blankets given to the
Indians last year were not delivered until very cold weather-late in
November, when they were suffenug severely with the cold; do yon
know the reason why they were not delivered sooner?
A. I do not know; there are no goods delivered at this point to be
shipped upon Government requisition but I ship within twenty-four
hours after I know that they are here.  That is the invariable custom at
my office.
Q. Do you know of any blankets or annuity goods lying here or at
Council Bluffs for two or three months?
A. No, I do not; none ever lay here for four years past.
Q. That is here at Omaha, you mean?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Bow about at Council Bluffs?
A. I have no recollection of any lying at Council Blnffs.  The freight.
officers at Council Bluffs have been in the practice of notifying me
whenever there is a delay there, atid if there is a difficulty that 1 cannot provide for I always correspond with the Department immediately
~itli regard to goods that are lying there.
By Mr. FAUL~NER:
Q. ~~hen goods consigned to Council Bluffs have lain there a week
or ten days, have you bcen notified of that fact?
A. I have heretofore.  Those officers generally notify me.
Q. ~Tould they have done so, Mr. White, after it became perfectly
~`ell known that Mr. McCanii had the contract for transportation, with
which you had nothing to do?
A. There was very little of that done last year.  I was notified of a
very few goods. I was notified of a quantity of soap-I think it was in
1S74-consigned to various agencies up the river, and I received instructions from the Department to pay the freight upon it.  It came from
Saint Louis; it did not come from the eastern cities.  I paid the freight
and shippe~l it to the different agencies.
Q. Have you seen McCann about the want of promptness in transportatioul
A. I never had but one interview with McCann.  lle called at my
office upon one occasion.
Q. Do you know anything about the distance between Cheyeniie and
Red Cloud ageitcy?
A. I do not know; I have never been to the present agency.
By Mr. 11APR15:
Q. Are you informed with any regnlarity of McCann's course in regard to transportation?
A. I do not know anything aboi~t McCann's operations, except that
he is negligent in attending to his business, as fa.r as ii~y intercourse
with hii~ on that occasion ahout those goods sent to this point is concerned.
;\Ir. HARRIS. The Commissioners want all the information they can
get upon the subject.
The CHAIRMAN. I uiiderstaiid Mr. ~Vhite to state that there were 
127
some occasioiis when some goods shipped to McCann had lain at Councii Bluffs, and that that was the neglect of McCann.
~~ITNE55. Yes, sir; and there are some lying there now and have
been for son0e weeks.
Q. Do yo~ know wl~at they are.
A. I have the exi)ense-bilis at my o~ce; I can furnish you with the
iteii~s of them.
Q. Are they under lock aild key or in open depot?
A. I cannot state that.  They came over the C. B. aiid Q. (Chicago,
Burlington and Quincy) road.  The freight-officers of that road have
sent me the expense-bills.
The CHAIRMAN. Of course the railroad company is responsible for
them.
N\~ITNEss. I have written to them that McCann was the contractor,
and he belonged in Nebraska City; and that was as far as I could go.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIA~~ J. YATES.
By the CnAiRMAN:
Question. I will ask you to state,`\Ir. Yates, if you inspected some
flour that was delivered to th~ superintendent of Indian affiirs for the
Northern Superintendency here, by Mr. Ilurford, in 1874?
Answer. I think in December we finished. ~Ve commenced earlier-I
forget the dates, but I think Mr. ~Vhite has the dates; I made a report
to liini every evening.
Q. You ii~si~ected all that flour?
A. Every sack, sir, right along.
Q. Bow did you inspect it?
A. ~~e only had a "butter-trier."  We would shove it through tbe
sacks, aiid that usually brought out a sample clear through the whole
sack, and 1 generally drew about three samples to a sack.
Q. llave you had experience in the handling and manufacturing of
flour?
A. I have been dealing in flour ever since I was a boy, and I have
been with Mr. Davis in the State mill here.  I have done all his business;
bought his wheat and sui~erinte!ided the mill.
Q. You have dealt in flour before that for a long time?
A. Yes, sir; I could go down to any of those mills and draw the sampies that would matd~ tlie samples that I iiispected l~y. I have a disliuct recollection of the color of the flour.
Q. ~1r. ~Yhite has furnished us with samples.  [Sample No. I shown.l
What kind of flour is that~
A. That sample is good flour; that is No. 1.
Q. The fl~~ur you inspected on this occasion was equal to that?
A. Equal; or at least one-half was better, and none of it was inferior
to that sample.  {Saiuple No. 2 shown.]  Now the difference betweeu
these two flours is this, that (No. 1) is a little darker; it is a little more
~Pecky~what the millers would calt shorts; it is made out of sound
wheat, but has a few shorts iii it.
Q. Do you remember, Mr. Yates, liow niuch of that flour corresl)onded
to that sample No. 2?
A. My impression is that a great deal of it was much sli})eii()r.  I
sul)J)ose there was a cir-load of that grad~; there might have L~een less;
but I think there were about 200 sacks. 
`he samples were examined with a magnifying-glass by tlie commissioners and the witiiess.]
~V~TNLSs These are tl~e sa~nples fiiriiislied by ~Ir. llurford's ageiit,
and by which we inspected tlie tl{~nr.  ~ti'. ilurford was sick at tlie tiiiie,
au~l a yoni~~ in an, his clerk or l)ook-keeper, gave me the first saini)le.
Q. ~Ir. Y~tes, from your kiiowledge of flour, miilii~g, &c., woul~t you
say of this sample No. 2 that it wotild make bread suitable for the use
of persons ordinarily ~
A. N\~hat I drew out of the bags I threw on tlie floor, and in the warehouse they complained; so wheu I went again I took a little sack with
me, and brought away son)e flour and made bread out of it, and sweeter
bread I never tasted. I like bread iiiade out of s~)ring-wheat, and I
never tasted sweeter bread than that which I made froiii sample No. 2.
Q. So you think both sa iii pies, Nos. 1 and 2, would make good bread?
A. Yes, Si I-.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. Ilow as to color ~
A. It (No. 2) was a little yellow; bright goldish.  There is a little
yellow in both, but one is a little lighter.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. ~Yas this flour made of spring. wheat?
A. I presume it was. Altogether we raise but very little winterwheat in Nebraska.
Q. It was bought here, was it?
A. I think so, sir.  I think Mr. llurford buys all his wheat here. I
might remark about withdrawing those samples, that Mn llurford said
there was 5O11)C mistake, and asked to withdraw his sample.  I told him
to see Mn ~Vhite, as I had no authon~ty; so Mr. ~Vhite delivered to me
the second sa in pie, and I inspected by it.  The 200 sacks I alluded to
was all that fell below the grade of the first sample, but these 200 sacks
wei-e compared with sample No. 2, and oiily abou~ 200 of the 2,700 fell
short of sample No. 1.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Those 200 sacks that fell short of sample No. 1 were equal in
quality to sami)le No. 2 ~
A. Yes, sir.
TFSTIMONY OF OLIVF~ B. ll[ZP~FORD.
By tlie CHAIRMAN:
Question. Do you reside in Omaha?
Answer. Yes, sir.
The chairman ii~formally explained to ~Ir. llurford the object for wl~ich
the commission was appointed, an~l requested hiin to give wh;~tever
information he could furnish oil the subject.
~VITNE55. I "`as not the contractor with the Government Thr flirnisliing flour  Now, I uiiderstaiid that this Comulission proj)oscs to investigate Commissioner Smith as well, and you want to get at the whole
facts.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
~`ITNE55. ~`ell, iii June, 1874, 1 submitted a bid for flour, together
with a sample.  My bid was ~~2.3J per hun~lred pounds, aiid Mn John
il-it! -  -` 
129
II. Martiii, of ~`h~venne an~I Denver, al~o sflb!1iit~ed a bid at ~~~.t2 per
hundred.  lie W('~S a failing contractor the ~C~~ befl~re, ai~~l lie did not
expect bi~ bid as I was informed, to be acce!)ted by (?oiiiniissioner
Smith.  ~Ir. ~IcCa'~n, in a coliversation with (D~~~ninissio~ier Smith, or
the Comniissioner in a coI~vet~ation with ~Ir.;\ICG'(tliIi, exjires~ed some
doubt abont ~Iartin fiti!iiig iii thi~ contiact, aiid they might be left short
of supplies ~
Q. ~\~ho expressed that donbt,?\~cCanii or Co}nmi~sioner Smith?
A. Commissioner Smith to ~IcCaiin.  ~t~Caiin~s reply was, that if
~[artin failed liurford`vonl~l ~`Li~~l5t the flour, lie kne\v  aiid th~v ~iispected that, if they did not give ~Iartiii tiie contract at his bid, froia
the Ch1ra(~ter of the inai), he would make it so llupleasaiit for theni that
they took it iii), sn~)posi!ig that he WOtil(l not perfect his coiitrtct bv
giving good bonds  biit he did.  ~VelI, the fin~t c011!lectioii I have ha~i
with the niatter is tlii~     letter, a suggestioii from ~Ir. ~IcCaiiii that ~Iartiij
would be 51(J'v about filliiig his coiitract, aiid`valiting iJie to step iii aiid
supply the flour:
Oi:FiCE UNION PACI`IC RAILROAD H u~i:
Chey~'nn~, JV. I., kily 2S, lS74.
DEAR SIR: I think ~l'trtiii the contractor for flour, will be slow in illliiig at ~~`~.5O,
delivered h~re. Can you fnrni~li five car-l~~a4s. (if ~2O sack each, soon, and plit it in
the contract at ~2.l2 ~  If so, I will take it as soon as bailed.  I pnpose to send it on
at contract price, to keep the agelicy snpplied, without refl~rence to contractor's RiOvenien ts.
Please write immediately.
Yours, truly,
D. J. ~IcCANN.
0. P. HUnFoP.D, Esq.,
Ornoha.
I count on flonr.~`2 12
Freight                                                            3S
2 50
Wir~55 Now, gentlemen, I believe that was a trick on me.  The
proper way for the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, when ~Iartin failed,
was then to take my bid, as I understood I was the next lowest bidder.
That would ha~e been the proper course to have pursued; but instead
of that, Mr. McGanu was eternally turning up and wanting flour to keep
the agency running, and I furnished that flour, and it was inspected at
Cheyenne~the first lot, it was not inspected here (Omaha)-pursuaiit
to the above request of ~IcCann, dated July 28, 1874.  Now, in passing,
I would suggest to this coin mission that they ascertain whether that
flour was paid for ill Cheyenne at $2.12 or $2.3.Th.  I think it was paid
for at $2.35 per hundred pounds.  I furnished the 1,100 sacks nientioned in that paper, at $2.12 per liundred~ poulids.
Q. I understand you shipped this flour.
A. Those 1,100 sacks at $2.12?  I shii)l)ed them to J. J. S~iville, care
of ~IcCann; it was inspectetl out yoiider. (it Ch~veiiiie.  Then after
that was (~hip1)ed I got a letter from  ~Ir. ~fcCaiin, suggestilig that lie
would want o,OOO sacks more, an~I there was a good deal of coi'resI~on(l.
euce Ofl the subject before we arrive~l at aiiythiiig defiiiite.  After coti siderable ~rrespondence I receive~1 this letter from ~r. ~IcCanti:
CII~y~~Ni:. ~-. T., Augii~t 22, 1(~74.
DEAR SIR: Sinc~ writing you, I have been authorizeit to jiiii'chast'- 2()2.OO(? l)()nI)ds of
tliiiir for the Indian se~ice, in double sacks, weighing -~.S poiiiids Iii flie sick. incliidilig Sacks, or, say 2 296 sacks of (~S poniids each.  If you see your way dc-ir ti) furnish
it at the price, ($2' per 100 pounds,) shipping two to three c;irs per`veek. ifter next
91F 
week. please sign and retnr~ the i00c~ostd men~orandnn~. Koenig desires the order, but
in view of o~ir corresponden C you are ei~titletI to t~ie refusal.
Yours. truly,
D..J. McCANN.
()P HvRFoRD L~~..
()nia1~o.
~Ir. J&oenig was not turiiishiiig ai0y flour  lie could not furnish ai0y,
liis n~ill was 5to1)ped for rel)airs at the tiiiie  his fl)ili was at (4raiid
Island.  The flour could iiot have been flirnished tliere iii any eveiit,
becanse it had to be insi)ccted here, (Omaha.)  I~e told me that l~e never
had agreed to fliruish ~Ie(?anii any flour; that ThtcCann had written to
him on the slll)ject, bat that lie had declined to furnish liim any flour, as
lie could not do so.  I wrote ~IcCann a letter agreeing to furnish this
flour just as lie asked for it in S8-pound sacks, makiiig some remarks
Lbout tiie striiigency of liis terms, aii d ~o on, aiid a few ~Iays after thi~
lettcr was written ~Ir. ThIc(?aiin came down here on liis way to ~VasIiin gton.  I asked liim about tlie S8 pound sacks, why it was to be l)ut lip
ii) that way that it was unusual and might probably lead to trouble. lie
said it was for tlie coiiveiiieiice of issue together with other rations: lie
made soiue excuse of that kiiid.  I furnished that flour in the SS-1)ouiid
sacks, and that is tiie flour in refereiice to which ~Ir. ~Vhite bas testified.
That flour was furtiished through An gust aiid Septeniber.  Then there
was another lot that went to the Shoshoiie and Baiiiiack agency, 1, 1()1
sacks, that was furnished at.~2 per hundred, in 100-pound sacks at the
request of Mr. ~IcCann.  It was furiiished iii October and November.
That for tlie Sli~~shones an~l 1~annacks was ftiriiished mostly iii October.
I iiiiglit say, iii round iiuinbers, it was early iii October; tlie last carload went earl~' iii Noveniber.  Now, these sliipmeiits of flour these
SS-pound sacks, were shipped )j() sacks iii a car.load; I thin k that makes
just 22,000 I)oulids.  I have the shippiiig-receipts somewhere showing
that fact, so that so far as we were concerned the flour was all thrown
into pounds.  I re~.eiced p~iy for it at ~~2.l2 i)er hundred pouiids for the
tirst lot, aiid.~2 per hundied for tlie other lot.
About that sanii)le.  ~Vheii tlie Commissioner of Indian Affairs
wrote to Barclay ~Vhite that I would furnish this flour, aiid tli;it he
should inspect it, he stated to ~Ir. N\~hite that ~Ir. Burford would fliriiish saiiii)le.  N\~ell, that always confused me, and aroused my suspicious
that they were flirnishiug the flotir oli my contract, and I sought to get
that tact from Comu~issioner Smith, but fliled.  I telegraphed hiiu dii-ectly, saying if this flour was being furnished oli tlie sample that I submitted in June tlieii the price I mentioiied iii Juiie ought to prevail,
namely,.~2.37j.  I do iiot tliiiik there is a doubt of it.  I state that so
tb~~t you may look iii that direction when you go to ~~r~51i~~g~~~  I
hid 110 saml)le to ~ubniit.  Iii one of tho~e letters tiom ~IcGann he asks
inc if I have tlie saiiiple I submitted at ~Yashiiig.tou.  Of course I could
not have it unIes.~ iliy l)id was icee l)te(l, theii it would be retu rued to
ine.  Then ~~Ir. ~Ic(2aiin says, "If you have iiot got it, I have."  ~~~hat
l)usii)ess liad it oiit there at ~`lieyeiiiie?-  That was what confused iiie.
1 had no saiiii)le to turiii.~h.  ~\ heii I was alil)lied to lor this flour, and
lequested to furiiisb Iiiy owl s~iiui~les, I ininislied olie and afterward
r-.)           -
inotlici. aiid tile.~e {No~. 1 aii~l -, iie.~eiited b~ ~Ir. ~~ bite are the sami)les.  I was sick an{t lay ~-ouiig iiian furnished the first sain lile.  It was
too ~ood, as I siii~l~o~ed.  I~ut olie ear-load was furnished aii~l inspected
by this best saiiiple, (No.?  and I found that I was liaviiig injustice
~ione iiie.  As I`v~isat lil~erty to tiir iiish Iny own sanij~le, I re(~uested
l)ernii.~sioii to withdraw that sample and subiuit oiie ttiat camc nearer
ilic or~1inary Iiidiaii flour that has been fui nished here.  Iii the meaii 
131
time Commissioner Smith came out here aiid saw the two samples in
the office of Barclay White, and objected to this se~ond saml)le; and
~~Ir. ~Vhite notified n~e of the fact, and I told hill)   Very well, I will
furnish according to the first sample;" and I (li(l.  So there was one
car-load furnished according to the second sai~)ple, and all the balance
was furnished according to the first saniple submitted (No. 1.)
By Mr. llARRIs
Q. Yon say Commissioner Smith was here and saw it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr White said somebody else was here-Mr. P~oberts?
A. Commissioner Smith was here himsel(,and ill Mr. Barclay White's
oflice, and objected to this (No. 2) sample.
Q. Was it Commissioner Smith, of the Board of Indian Commissioners or ~fr. Smith, Commissioner of Indian Affairs?
A. Mr. White told me that Mr. Smith of tlie Indian Board, was here
and objected to the sami)Ie, and I understood it was the Commissioner
of Indian Affairs.
(After some desultory conversation between tlie cou)missioIlers and
tbe witness, it was ascertaitied that it was ~1r. Siiiitli, of tlie Board of
Indian; Coinmissioiiers, and not tlie Commissioiier of Jiidiau Affairs,
who was presetit and objected to the samples.)
N\~iTNEss. This flour was re-iiispected at Cheyenne by a ~1r. Coakley,
quartermaster's clerk at Fort Russell, near Cheyenne, and lie threw out
one hundred and three sacks of the whole lot, so that whatever I)asse~1
here that was a little below grade, I fancy, was thrown out yoiider at
Cheyenne, and there were one hundred and three sacks of it.
Q. Do you know what bec;ime of that flour?
A. Yes, sir; my agent sold it to parties going into tlie Black llills.
Q. So, then, we understand that you never had a contract with the
United States, or with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, for furnish
ing flour, and you did not furnish this flour upon a contract with the
(;overnment?
A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. But you furnished it upon an arrangement with this lii an McCann ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he paid for it?
A.  Yes, sir; after a heap of delay and worry, and iii soiiie instances
letting my drafts go to protest.
Q.  You have been engaged in the maiiufacture of floni' here
A.  Yes, sir; for ten or twelve years.
Q.  ~~unning a mill here?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Manufactuniig flour pretty largely?
A.  Yes, sir; I have beeu, ul to recently, coniiecte~l`vitli thiec iii ills.
I sold one here a few weeks ago.  I tliii~k I hive iii~re mill-j~ower tliaii
any one man in the State as a inanufietuier ()f flour.
(?- What at that time was tlie value of flour by tiie b~irrel here, such
flour as you shipped Last for the iiiarket?
A. ~~~e do liot ship ally East from  here  it is all sol(I ~\~est.  our
best grade was at that time selling at ironi $2.25 to $2.35 a sack ol 9~
ilounds, or half a barrel.
Q. That is all spring.whe.it flour?
A. Yes, sir.
~? ~Vhat was the differeiiee ii) lirice lietween spring-wheat flour aiid
`vinter.wheat flour at that tinie? 
A.(W~)ii~i~It~~~bJe.  ~~~~flte1-'v11e('~t flour is all fl~'~i~i1faCtnre(I in (?hi~~~~go
~I)(i (1O\~-II ~()nth wheje`vii~tti-w1ieat is r~i~~4l.  ~~~iI)t~r.'viie;'t coni
1fl(~II~IS t'ioin t~ii to fifteen cent~ I)el l~ii~lie1 iiioie tli ~n s~)riIig-'vlieqt.
P)y Mi'. FAULKNER:
~? ~~`liy is th('~t
A.It i< s1il)l)o~ed to l~e of h';ier {jn~lity. It n~ak'es;~ finer (inility of
flour, aiid ~nits the east~rii iuirkt~t. iliti n1~ik'e~ more tioni' ~o tiie bushel
and less ofl~il.
~y the (;`UAIRMAN:
(). Have you aJ)y i!JfOri))atioi' in regard to the t1'alisi)ortation of other
Iii~iiiin ~ni)t~1ies besi(ieA flour liow is it (1010C?
A.~Ir. ~I~j(?anu h~s a contruct with the Union Picifle P~ailroad for
carryino' the~e Iii4ian snl)l)lies., and lie gives inc, here in one of these
letters, 38 cun~s a bnn~ired poiiiids fiom Omaha to (Wheycune. That is
the rate the riili'oa~l ch;irgcs ~Ic(i'ann. This flour that was shipped by
nie to the Slioshojies aiid I)'~iniiacks was shipped to Bryan, on tiie Uiiion
Pacific A'~aiiFo'id. It was J)lit off' there, and there it laid; and ~Ir. ~I~'
~`ann (lid not ~)ay the irei~ht oii it, and I understand that there were
~tlier Iiidian supi)lies there at tiie saiiie time in the same fix. Mr. ~Ic
Cann was at that time in ~Yasliiiigton figuring around.  He went there
some time in Octoher, and remained there through October, November,
December, January, and I think it was late in February when be canie
back, aiid this stuff' laid out there, and the India~ agents could not get
it without tlie Vuited States ficight being paid on it. And that was the
trouble with Mr. Irwin~s flour; it laid there and he could not get it. and liis
teams staid there in the cold and apt to be frozen up, and Mr. McCann
charged the ti'onble on me, that I did not ship the flour forward, when
the tact was that it laid there for, I think, a month. I wrote Mr. Mc
Can ii a letter on the subject. lie charged me with the delay; and I
think I was informed that lie made the same charge against me to the
Coniiiiissioner of Indian Affairs.  Mr. ~IcCann was very angry at me
holding`illy communication with the Department, and fiiially I wrote
Mr. ~icCaiin a letter that was veiy severe, calliiig him to accouiit for
liis course, and in re~~ly to that letter I received one that I would like to
show to the commission, to show how he comes down.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
(~. Do you know when flour was transported to the 1~ed Cloud
agen('y, when it was released from the charge of the railroad, so that
it could be transported to tlie P~ed Cloud agency ~
A.I ain s~)eaking about tlie Shoshones aiid Bannacks.
Q.1 know that; but do you know anything as to the time that it was
rele;ise~i?
A.I do not know.  The flour I shipped out during August and Septeniber I think went along I)retty promptly, but my in~pressioii is that
there was some delay at Cheyeniie while Mr. McCann was in \V'tshing
ton, but to what exteiit it was delayed I am not advised.
Q.llave you ever heard any complaints ill regard to the flour you
sent to Cheyenue for the Bed Cloud agency`.~
A.No, sir; I never have.  I have heard a general complaint about
the flour, but there never has been a sack of flour condemned at the Bed
Cloud agency that was traced back to Barclay ~~hite or myself.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.This flour put up in SS-poiiiid sacks was shipped to Cheyenne for
the Bed Cloud agency ~ 
1~3
~.Yes, sir; and I thin 1 if yon will follow the [U t'losely you will fitid
that the unmber of pounds was i~ot n~arke~1 upon tlie bags; that they
were issuied as 100 l)onnds of flour to tite Indiaiis.  I state this i~erely
as lily O})illiOfl.  I was infor~ned that flour that had been shipped ont
there by me had been SOi(l in (?heyeiiue; but I give this merely as a
runior.  In cases of this kind there are I3leflty of inmors without much
fon iidation.
~? Do you know anythii~g about the specimen of flour that Professor
~1ll'5h saw at the I~ed Cloud ageney; di(l yon ever see that?
A.No, sir; I did not.  I believe the Professor says that the way he
(~ame by that sample was that he saw a 5~~'~~ carrying the sack away,
and it fdl off her back and bursted; and it was a single sack, and the
floiir was rotten.
TllE CllAIRMAN. fle said that the flour was very bad, and nobody
would eat it.
\VITNESS. N\Tell, now, every sack of my flour was ill double sacks; there
was not au exception, and therefore this could not have been my flour.
There were some depredations committed by some Indians on the plains
reeeiitly, and the way they discovered who the Indians were (they were
Sioux) was that their te'its were made out of flour-sacks branded Anchor
Mills, an(l that it was T. S. Clarkson's inspection brand.  I think that
was furnished in 1873.  1 fnrnished it to Baldwin  I bought some other
from ~Ir. Loveland.  And when Professor Marsh speaks of miscellaneons lots, I presume he means different brands, and that was it; and at
the end of the season out of the whole lot there were 103 sacks rejected.
Mr. MeCatin wrote to me in August or September that Martin had fi~rnished 1,700 odd sacks, and therefore there was (so much more) needed
to complete the contract.  Now, this flour that that squaw got might
ii ave been furnished by those Indian traders out there who are appointed
iii the interest of the Indian agent, and if that flour was not furnished
by Mr. Martin, the fitiling contractor, it must have got to them through
the authorized traders at the post.  You see, with Martin's facilities, it
was utterly impossible for him to fill that contract.
Q.Does be own a mill?
A.No, sir.  lle is just a speculator.  ~Vhen I set myself right, then
I am for Professor Marsh after that.  I know something of the deviltry
that is practiced in this business.  I have been here seventeen years, and
am acquainted with all the Indian agencies, and it is impossible for a
respectable man to take a position as Indian agent at $125 per month
and live on that alone aiid come out worth a fortune at the end of three
or foitr years.  The whole system is wrong.  This flour ought not ~o be
bought by contract yonder in New York.  The contract ought to be
awarded right here, and let millers supply the flour; it has to be made
here anyhow, and it must be supplied by persons on the ground with
facilities for furnishing it.  The idea that Indian flour is poorer than
other flour ought to be gotten rid of.  Flour has ai~ intrinsic value, and
if a contractor agrees to furnish it at less than the market price, he is
obijoed to cheat in quantity or quality.
Q.You state you had a letter from McCann?
A.Yes, sir.  lle comes down.  lle is a meii~ber of tlie church, and
so am I, and he thought that men uiakiiig professions as we did otight
iiot to get into this kind of a row.  I was willing to risk the church relatioiis if he was.  lIe is divorced from his wife, and is geiierally a
btd egg.
~? Have you got the letter here?
~.No, sir; it is at my house. 
134
Q. Do you know anything in reference to delay in the transportation
of other Indian supplies in consequence of the non-payment of freight,
besides this flour that laid at Bryan~
A. Nothing that I would want to state nuder oath. The information
comes to me that ~ot only my flour was allowed to lie without the
freight being paid on it, but other goods besides.  i~IcCanu neglects his
whole duties as transporter of Indian supplies.
By Mr. liARRIS:
Q. Do you know anythitig about the transportation of blankets?
A. No, sir.
iSy Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. You speak of ~IcCann as having made tiie coi~tract with the
Union Pacific Railroad Company?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. lie did that, I suppose, in his character as a contractor for the
Government?
A. I fancy that this contract with the Union Pacific Railroad would
be the result of a contract with the Government. He would contract
with the Government to transport the flour and other supplies, say from
Omaha, then he would make an afl~ngement with the Union Pacific
1~ailroad so as to aftbrd him a profit.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Have you any ft~rther information or suggestions that you could
give us?
A. I do not know. I have sought to make such suggestions as might
guide you in N\~asliington, and in looking after McCann. I think that
McCann is the point d'appui of the whole mischief in the Red Cloud
`~~~~C~. I think the stealing is done through him pretty much.
Q. Do you know anything about the beef?
A. I do not. I believe they guess at the weight. I never furnished
any beef. Under dat~ of Cheyenne, Wyoming, Ai~gust 26, 1874,Mr.
D. J. McCann wrote me a letter, in which he says~: "Have you the samples
of flour famished by you to the Department in June? 1 can send you
the samples I have had, and which will guide the inspection, or you can
arrange to have the flour inspected as loaded by Inspector Clarkson.
This is upon the supposition that you contracted for the 2,275 sacks."
I understand the flour wi~ich I furnished, and about 1,700 sacks
that Mr. McCann says Martin furnished, would fill the contract of
;~ 500 sacks. I have always regretted my connection with the $S~pound
sack business, and I am very glad to have liad this opportuiiity of ex~~Jaining it.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Professor Marsh says it was "in a single sack, without aiiy brand
whatever." That is not descripti~~e of your fi~~ur
~. No,sir.
By Mr. HARRIS:
(~.On its wQv could it be changed
A. It could be changed without difliculty.  If you find that Mr.
~IcCann is not a man that would do that, probably it was not changed
but if you find that he is a man that would be likely to do it, you may
infer that it was done. 
135
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Do you know any reason why yonr flour was sui~ected t~ a second
inspectiou at Cheyenne?
A. No, sir; Idonot.
Q. Is it usual to subject flour to a second inspection?
A. No, sir; I think the inspection grew out of this change of samples
that I have explained here.  ~~heu the difference in the two samples
wa~ discovered, the Indian commission took the precaufion to re-inspect
it at Ch~veune, and then 103 sacks were thrown ont. I did not care particularly about it.
CHEYENNE, ~V. T., Thursday, July 29, 1875.
1~res~'~t: Hon. THoMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman, Hon. B. N\7 HARRIS, a'iitl lloii. CHARLES J. FAULKNER.
TESTI~jOXY OF H. C. BOSTWICK.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Que~tion. Mr. Bostwick, you are a ~overnment store.keeper here, I
ii!) ~ierstand.
Answer. Yes, sir.
Q. Ilow loi~g have you been here in that capacity?
A. Since the 18th of Noveniber last.
(~.Do you remember receiving some flour shipped by Barclay ~Vhite,
consigned to Mr. ~IcCaun, who is the contractor for transportation of
fi-eiojit_ I believe?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. D() yon know anything of the inspection of that flour after it
ari~ived here?
A. It was re-inspected by Mr. Coakley, by the orders of the Commissioner.  Mr. Long was appointed ill spector; Mr. Coakley was appointed,
I s101)I)ose, by Mr. Long.
Q. Do you remember anything of anofl~er lot of flour received about
the same time, shii)ped by I. H. ~1artin, from Denver?
A. Tlie most of Martin's flour, and the most of the flour that was received, ii~spected by P~arclQy ~Vhite, of 0 maha, was received before I
came here, but a good portion of it was remaining as rejected flour iii
the warehouse here, after I took my office.
Q. Do you l~now whether that flour which was rejected was mostly
from tlie lot shipped by Martin or from the lot shipped by ~Yhite?
A. ~V'~ll, I could not tell you, sir; I could not say whicli part came
from Martin and which came from N\7hite.  I was not able to know,
because, being rcjected flour, I had nothing to do with it.
(~.~Vhen goods are received at the Coverument store-house for Bed
Cloud agency, are they shipped upon the order of the agent at Bed
Clond agency?
A. Not necessarily.  It is supposed that all goods that come into my
po~session for Bed Cloud agency I should ship to Red Cloud agency.
(~.How do you ship those goods?
A. By cattle-trains and mule-trains.
(~.have you the power to call for those cattle-trains?
A. I have not; they are ft~nislied by the contractor.
($). Then the goods are not forwarded until the contractor sees pro~)er
t() (-(`ill (`It your store-house for them, and take then~ away? 
I~6
A.  ll~r~istbe~~~~y: Th~contractor, ~Ir. ~ic(?'~nn, fl0~k~s a coi~trac't ~vith
A, B, ai~~d C, aii~i so oil, to take goods from iliC ~Iid t;ike' them  to Iyed
Cloutt agei0cy.  ~Ve!1, they are all`very anxious to keep tbeii' ti('t~il5
going as fi~t as po~sible, and they wouild call for goods every fifteeii
minutes if they could ~et them a~d there wei~e that many traiiis.  They
bother n~e aliiiost to deatlt about then~.
Q.  ~Vheii you deliver tliein goods for i~ed Cloud agency is it neccs~ary
tbat ~Ir.?\IcCaiin, the contractor, should be there to receive theut frotu
yoit, or do you turu theni over directly to the inen he has employed to
take them?
Y Usually ~Ir. ~1cCann says to these men that are under contract,
" You go to the warehouse," or " to the st~~re-keeper, and there will be
loading fi~r you."  And if there is loading for them I load theni, kuowing that they are U~e men that are under contract with ~Ir. ~IcCann for
this transportation.
Q.  Does McCann transport most of these goods by means of these
sub-contractors, or does he traiisl)ort any portion of them hittiself?
A.  Yes, sir; he has only a small outfit that usually runs.  It had been
run for a good many years before (soi understand; I don't know this of my
own knowledge) by Mr. John Compton, but perhaps it is not necessary
to put down things I don't positively kitow.  Mr. Compton was miming
the train for Mr. McCann; I don't know at what time or what points.
After I came here McCann had a train; at least I supposed it was him.
I iiever made out any wagon-bills, or no wagon-bills were made out, to
~In McCann; they were made out to Mr. Compton, but it is generally
called McCann's train. ~Vhether it is correct or not I ain not able to say;
and after Mr. Compton left, (his health became poor and he left this spring
(l1~ite early,) then Mr. T. M. Sawyer had the train in charge.  I only
know it as it is generally known as McCann's train.
Q.  Was there ever aiiy complaint by Agent Saville to you about tlie
detention of goods here at your warehouse?)
A.  No, sir.
Q.  Goods were always~promptly forwarded when they came here?
k Yes, sir; with the exception of, perhaps, last winter, when we had
a severe storm, aiid it was quite difficult to get transportation ready at
that time, because they had no sheds or barus here, (they never put up
any hay in this country,) aitd the cattle strayed away, and it was quite
difficult at one time last winter to get the cattle together to get transportation over to the agency; but I succeeded in getting some two or
three trains on the road.  I got them started with goods, and they got as
far as the Platte, when another severe storiti overtook them and drove
the cattle away again.  About this time tlie Department ordered the
iise of an odometer to measure the distance from here to Red Cloud, and
the party started from iny oftice and got as far as the Platte, and had
to make their quarters at Fort Laramie, which was as far as they could
go and they never completed tlie measnremeiit.
Q.  Do you know whether that distaiice w~s e~-er measured?
A.  Not to my knowledge.
Q.  Do you know what became of the rejected flour that was in the
warehouse when yoii took charge there ~
A.  Yes, sir;Mr. J. II. Martin sold it to ~fr. Athorp.  Mr. O'Brien,
the sherifi of this county, acted as agent for Mr. Martiii.  The business
was transacted iii my office, and the flour was turned over to Mr. Afliort)
at that time, and he moved away over two liundre~i sacks of it.  I won't
say sold, but it was moved away from my office by ~1r. Athori), and
some of tlie same flour is to-day in tlie store of Pease & Taylor iii thi 
137
town  and ~Ir. Athorp told i~e he had taken son~e of it ont 011 his ranch
aii~l hd'd sold son~e of it to different parties.
(~.The flour that you shipped to 1~ed Gloud ageiley, do you ie~neniher whether (`Lil that flour ~as ill double sacks aiid stenciled with the
J~(ifflC of the inspector branded on it?
A. It is my impression 110W that all of that wa~ in double sacks, and
tlie brand oil the bags was "Indian I~epartn'ent.  I think it slys`litdian Departu~ent Flour," or " Indian Department."
Q. ~~~eJl, tite flour received at the warehouse fton~ ~Iartin, was tltat
I)~~ i~p in the same way and branded ii~ the same way, do you recollect?
&%. It is`fly inipression that it was.  I am speaking of ~Iartiit's flour
all the time.  That I saw was in double sacks.  I will tell you why:
when Coakley was piercilig it with his insl)ectiiig-iron, it was very hard
to pierce it through; and if it was a sii~gle sack, it would be easy.  I
think I noticed wheii sacks were toni, and I was obliged to sew the in up.
They were in double sacks.
(? Now as to that which was received from Barclay ~Vhite?
A. That flour that was received from Barclay ~Vhite, it appears, was
furnished by 0. P. Ilurford.  That was also braiide~1 "Indian Departineiit," or " Iiidian Departmeiit flour"-I think " Indian Departineirt
flour;" and it is my impression (I think I am correct in it) that that was
iii double sacks; and that flour~~the rejected flonr~of 0. P. liurford(there were 103 sacks of it)-remaiiied in the warehouse of I. ~V. French.
The warehouses belongitig to the Indian Department are at Camp Carling, a mile and a half distant from here. This flour I am speaking of
was stored iii the warehouse of I. W. French, but in tite same building
that my office was in.  There was an arrangement that I should have
iny office in that building, rather than at Camp Carling, to let Cheyeiine
know that there was an Indian office witbin the limits of Cheyenne
without going out so far.  About those 103 sacks of flour: Late this
sprilig I received an order, or rather two orders together.  One was an
order from D. J. ~IcCann to 0. P. llurford, for me to deliver over to 0.
P. flurford the 103 sacks of rejected flour branded Barclay ~Vhite, and
rejected by Mr. Coakley; and accompanying that order from D. J. McCann was an order from Mr. LIurford to me to turn o~er the flour to, I
think, Cnrthbnrtson & Young.  On the presentation of the order of Mr.
llurford by Messrs. Curthburtson & Young, I let them b ave the 103
sacks of flour, and they put it into their coin mission-store for sale, and
sold it. I asked them what they got for it, and they said they got $2,
$2.25, and $2.50 in money a sack for it, and they made a trade for some
meat, and they got $3.50 a sack for it.  I always felt a little delicate
about seeing the flour Pile{i up very coiis~icuously iii a store ott the
in;iin street, with i3arclay ~~ hite's iiame on it.  It was Indiait flour, and
it looked rather suspicious that some one was stealing that flour.
Q. Do you recollect about that flour what the weight of the sacks
was?
A. Some were different weights; some went SS pounds, some went S9
pounds, some 100 pounds, arid so on.
~~. That portion that you shipped to Red Cloud agency, did you weigh
it here before you put it in the wao-ons ~
A. Every pound of it, sir; the inspector weighs it.  I call on the inspector, and he comes where the flour is, and there he inspects it.  It
don't virtually c?ine into my hands, I don't really receive that flour
until after it is inspected, aiid then I receipt to the iii spector for what
liotir he weighs, and lie receipts to the contractor, whoever lie may be,
atid sends a copy or a duplicate to the Department. 
138
Q. And when you ship it to Red Cloud agency do you weigh it
again?
A. Always.
Q. Put iL in the wagons?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you send to the agent a bill of lading stating the weight?
A. Yes, sir. The wagoi~-n~aster-there is always a wagon-master
with these trains-the wagon-master signs three bills of lading: one
lie takes himself as a memorandum of what he has in the load, one is
sent to the agent, and the third is retained for the contractor to kiiow
what lias been shipped. The wagon-master takes his bill of lading
after he arrives at the agency; has his load weighed or counted out,
whatever it may be; then the agent that receives it, if it is received in
good order, certifies to that effect on his bill; then the wagon-master
returns that bill to the contractor, and gets liis pay npon it for transportation.
Q. Do you remember whether there were any bales of blankets shipped
by you to Red Cloud agency after you came here last fall?
A. Yes, sir. I shipped some that came from Minneapolis, ~Iinnesota.
Q. I suppose you conld iiot tell without reference to your books the
date and the number of bales?
A. I could not, sir.
Q. You can tell by reference to your books
A. 0 yes, sir.
Q. I wish you would think of it and examine your book, and make
me a memorandum.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember of any coffee being shipped to Red Cloud
agency last fall or winter, after you caine here?
A. Yes, sir; last winter.
Q. Did yon ever notice tlie quality of that coffee?
A. It was fair coffee, such as is ordinanly used by the people in the
con ntry.
Q. I)o you know anything about tobacco for the ageiicy?
A. I shipped tl~irtee'~ cases of tobacco-very large ~~i5~5, with caddies
inside of the cases; but the qnality of it I don't know anything about.
It caine from New York. It was all put up in veiW nice shape, and
seemed to be all right.
By Mr. llARRIS:
(~.Do you know how much flour was shipped by you to the agency
after you caine here?
A. I eannot tell now, but I will briiig in my books.
(~.~Vill you briiig in your books to~mon'ow?
~. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you keep a book 4~owiiig all tlie goods shi~~ped to Red Cloud
ngenQv?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You say that in loa~1ing a team with flour you weigh it all?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You pay no attention to the nun~ber of sacks, but rather to tlie
weio-ht )
A. 0 yes, sir; I keep tlie number of sack~.  I will tell you the reason why I weigh them.  It is espeei'~lly for the accOn~1iiOd'itiOn of the
wagoii-mastei-.  Now I weigh everytliiiig, with the exeel)tioii of sugar.
The sugar that comes to n~e with tlie barrel I)erfect, and the iiispector's 
139
brand on it, and marked so many pounds net-gross with the tare-I
take it for granted, if the barrel is perfect and the mark has apparently
iiot been disturbed, that that is the pro~~er weight of the contents.
That, of course, I d on~t weigh. But if I was going to receive of ~Ir.
Conkley, and if he would weigh out to me forty thousand pounds of
flour, and I had a train waiting for those forty thousand pounds of
flour, and they wanted forty thousand pounds of flour, and I had just
got through inspecting it, it is not probable I would weigh it again unless I would weigh it for the benefit of the wagon-in aster, who generally l)flt5 three or four thousand pounds on a wagon. It is simply for
the accommodation of the wagon-master in that case.
(~.As I understand it, sacks of flour are generally 100 pounds weight;
are reckoned as such?
A. I receipt to ~Ir. Coakley for just exactly what flour there is. If
tl~ere are only 88 pounds in a sack, or 90, or 92, or 98, or 100, 1 receipt
for it, an d ship it as I receive it.
~t~ I want a direct answer to my question. In making up a load of
flour for delivery from your warehouse, would you, at the time, weigh it
aiid get a receipt for the weight? Would you weigh it out yourself on
to the wagon?
A. 0, yes, sir.
(? Do you in all cases?
A. Every shipment of flour unless it was just as I have stated-tb at
we had just made an inspection, and I knew just exactly what there~was
in that pile, or that lot; in that case I would not weigh it again.
Q. Do you mean to say that in all iii stances you knew from your own
weighing of it, or from having just seen it weighed, the exact ii umber of
pouiids which were delivered to the driver?
A. Invariably, sir.
(? There was no instance in which you counted out the sacks and
reckoned the in each at 100 pounds?
~. No, sir; never.
(~.N\~ell, then, iii all cases, as I understand, you give the driver his
bill of tlie weight, and you send to the ageiit a bill of ladiiig which
comes back to you?
A. No, sir; it don't come back to me.  After it passes out of my
liaiids I have nothing more to do with it.
(~.Do you make aiiy record, or give any receil)t upon which ~Ir.
~IcCaiin is to be paid for his transportation?
A. No niore than his wagon-bills.
(~.~Vhen they pass out of your hands and go to ~Ir. Saville you doii't
see them again?
A. No, sir; not in my busiiiess capacity.
Q. So that you don'~ officially know whether that flour reaches its
destination or iiot?
A. I do not, sir.
~? Do you ki~ow where in the course of business those receit)ts go to?
A. They go iii to those wagon.bills, as we call them; those wagon.
bills that the wagon-master takes are returned. If the goods go to the
agelit correctly, he certifies to that; if there is a deficiency he certifies
oii the bills so iiiuclj deficiency; then that is kept deposited here in the
First Natioiial ~ank for payineiit-for the payment of the wagon-mas
ter's transportation, not the payment of ~Ir. i~IcCann's transportation;
but virtually it is the transportation of these nieii that ~Ir. 1~Ic(1~ann
hires to take those goods from here.
(~.That is to say, the bills conie back, and they are paid by the bank,
":l~ere ~IcCaiin lia~ fuiid~ 
14()
A.Yes, sir.
Q.I speak of the paper that goes to ti~e ageiIt.
A.That, I supi)ose, the agent send~ to ttie 1)~~)'1rti1i~IIt.
Q.Do yoii send a duplicate to the Departmeiit
A.I do not, sir.
Q.Do yon keep any account of the amount of flour 511i1)1)ed by you
froiti your store-hous~ to the agency?
A.Nothing, only ill tlie wagon-bills; I make out a dulAicate
Q.~Vhen yon receive a shipmeitt of flour froin any quarter, and it is
inspected and comes into your hands, do you give aiiy receipt for it
A.I never have received any flour that has been inspected by others;
but there was an order which is now in my office, not to ship any floitr
to R~d Cloud agency unless it is inspected by ~Ir. Conkley.
Q.Suppose you were receiving to-day a thousand sacks of flour whicl~
had passed inspeefion and came in to your hands as store-keeper, would
you then give any receipt for it?
A.I think not, sir. I have orders from the Department to ship no
flour unless it is inspected by ~Ir. Coakicy.  I dou't receipt for goods
which come into my hands as store-keeper. I do receipt for goods
which are shipped to me, iii order that i~Ir. ~IcCann may get his transportation. These receipts are simply evidence that a certain amount
of goods has been received for transportation.
Q.So far as I understand you, ~Ir. Saville is the person who gives
the final receipts?
A.Yes, sir; I think it is on my receipts that ~Ir. McCann gets his
pay for transportatioll that he pays out for bnnging these goods from
New York or Chicago, or wherever it may be, to Cheyenne, and he
would get his pay for transportation from Cheyenne to Red Cloud
agency on Mr. Saville's receipts; and the contractor, who furnished the
goods, would get his pay on Saville's receipts.
Q.Does your office furnish to the Department the means of determining whether all goods received by you are forwarded by you? llow
could it be known at the Department whether or not the goods which
had come into your hands had been sent forward to any Indian agency?
A.I receipt to the inspector for all flour turned over to`ne.
Q.~Vill you be kind enough to state from whom you re~eived ~~our
api)ointnlent ~
A.From Dr. Saville, sir.
By the CHMR~AAN:
(~. N\~hat other annuity goods pass through your haiids
A.All of them.
Q.Do you know a man by the name of ~. K. Forema'i?
A No,sir.
Q.~Vhere do you reside wheii you are at home?
A.At Cheyenne, sir.
Q.Where did you reside before you came to Cheyeiine?
A.I resided in Sioux City.  I ain a native of Vermont.
Q.Do you know anything of the inspection of flour by Mr. French
A.Not of my own personal knowledge. It occurred before I came
here. I have in my office samples of flour, in little boxes, labeled "sam
I)les of flour inspected by I.`V. Freiiclt;~` and also samples furnished
from  the Department for inspection to coin pare them witlt the flout
fi~riiished  And Mr. Marsh telegraphed Mr. Coakley, tlie insl)ector, tc
send him a sample of flour which he inspects by, aiid I gave Mr. Coaklcy
sample to send to hi in, (~Ir. Marsh.)  Mr. Coakley iiispected all th
flour that was forwarded to Red Cloud agency afte~ I caii~e into offic 
141
here. A 5'~ck of flour used to weigh 100 pounds.  It appears that ~Ir.
Palmer, the store-keeper before me, did uot really uiiderstand abont this
biisiiiess, and he took the liberty of telegraphing ~Ir. Smith, the Com~~iis~ioner, ii) reg'~rd to it, and I found the telegram ill my office.  The
Commi~sioiier, iii substance, s~ys: "The number of pounds in a sack is
itot e~seutial if the contractor delivers the amount that he agrees to."
By Mr.liA~~is:
~? liave you that telegram, sir
~. I ii ave, sir.
~lr. lIARRIS. You had better bring it up to-morrow.
~VITNL55. All rigltt, sit.
~L~ You spoke a little while (~~O of an attempt havitig bee ii i~iade i~y
~oniebody to measure tite distai~ce from Cheyeniie to 1~ed Cloud
~gency
A. Y~es, sir.
(~.~Vho was it I
A. ~Yhen I spoke of it I was trying to think of tlie man's name.  lie
a lienteijant of the Ar!~iy, ~vho was up here at Fort J~ussell, but he is
i)()t here at present; he was ordered to Fort Smith or Fort Steele.
CiiEYENNE, N\T T., Tt-id~y, J~t1y 30, 1875.
I'resent: lion. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman; lIon. CHARLES J.
FA~-LXNEi?, aud lion. B. W. HARRIS.
The examination of ~Ir. Bostwick was resumed.
Mr. Bostwick brought with hi~ his official books and papers, and
i)roceeded as follows:
I will commence where I left off. I told you last night that I had in
my office a telegram from Commissioner Smith, stating that the quantity
of flour in a sack was not material. This is it
~VASllINGToN, Dcccmbcr 26, 1S74.
S. PA!.Mi~P, Chcycnn~, U'. T.
Tlie quantity of flour per sack is not material, provided the actual weigbt be certified by
in spec I or.
E.P. SMITH,
Cunim issioner.
Now, as we are oJ~ the flour quesfion we will continue. Here is tlie
style of receipt that I give to the inspector when he tunis tlie flour over
to me.  [Showing receipt.] That is a retained copy that I keep in iny
office for reference.
[The witness here explained to tlie commissioners, going over his
books, his WOd?I8 oj~~-a~~di of keepiiig his ~ccounts.J
The book of the store-keeper, Mr. Palmer, shows that on the 13th of
August, 1874, there was received and inspected by the inspector 220 sacks
j-f flour, weighing 22,f)00 pouiids; August 17, 225 sacks, weighitig 22,500
pounds; same date, 225 sacks, weighing 22,500 pounds; August 20,220
acks, weighing 22,000 pounds; same date, 225 sacks, weighing 22 500
j~ou~tds; 24th,221 sacks, weighing 22,100 pounds; 26th, 225 sacks, weighing22,S00pounds; samedafr, 220 sacks,  weighing22,O00pounds; and on
The 28th, 221 sacks, weighing 22,100 pounds.  Of the above flour 1110C)
acks, weighing 11(~(300 pounds, was flour received by the Union Padfic
l~ailroad,and I suppose it came from Barclay ~Yhite, but I do not know. 
142
~\~e received flour by the Union Pacific Railroad from Barclay White.
The balance of the flour was received by the Denver Pacific Railroad;
and all the above-named flour was received on the coiitract of J. U.
~~artin.  The next receipt of flour on ~tartin's contract, was September
2, 224 sacks, weighing 22,4()0 pounds; September 26, by Denver Pacific,
225 sacks, weighiiig 22,500 pounds; the next October 8, by Union
Padflc, 237 sacks, weighing 20,856 pounds; also 236 sacks, weighing
20,768 pounds; also 250 sacks, weighing 22,000 pounds; ~lso 250 sacks,
weighing 22,000 poui~ds.  The reason why these separate items appear
in this way is that they came in separate cars.  The next was October 8,
received of J. II. ~Iartin, per O'Brien, 5 sacks of flour, weighing 500
j~ounds; the next October 21, by Union Pacific Railroad, 250 sacks, at 88
pounds, weighing 22,000 ponufis; the next, same date, 220 sacks by Union
Pacific, at 99.8 j~ounds, weighing 21,956 pounds; next, by Union Pacific same,   ighing 88.4 pounds each total
date, 250 sack~  we,     22,100
pounds; same date, by Deiiver Pacific Railroad, 225 sacks, 97.8 pounds
each, weighing 22,005 pounds; same date, by Denver P~'IC~flC, 224 sacks,
()7~4 pounds each, total 21,817.6 pounds; next, October 24, by Union
Pacific Road, 250 sacks, 87.65 ponuds each, total 21,912~ pounds;
iiext, October 28, by Union Pacific, 120 sacks, 91 sacks of 100.4 pounds
each, aiid 29 sacks at 88.4 pounds each, total 11,700 pounds; also,
~~u the same date, 220 sacks, by Uriioii Pacific, at 100.2 pounds each,
total 22,044 pounds; on the same date, 225 sacks, by K. P., (I&ansas
Pacific,) 225 sacks, 99 pounds each, wei ghii~g 22,275 pounds.  (All
marked`~By K. P. P~oad" really came by the Denver Pacific.)  The
i~ext flour received was, on Noveniber 7, by Denver Pacific, 1~1 sacks
of flonr, 98 pouiids each, weighing 10,878 pounds; tlie iiext was No~`eml~er 10, by Denver Pacific, 125 sacks' 98.6 i)oun(ls each, weighing
12,325 pounds.  That closes the accoulit for tlie year 1874 on 1. II.
~Iai-tin's contract for flour delivered for the Red (Sloud agency.
By Mr. FAULHNER~:
Q. N\~as any of this flour in single sacks?
A. I thiuk not.  Let me explain this.  The reason why I say this is
because I might as well say right here that I don't know, for tlie simple
reason that I don't know anything of this flour that is shipped away.
I could iiot say positively whether all of it was in single sacks or in
double sacks.
Q. You know nothing about it prior to tlie 18th of November?
A No, sir; I don't know auything in reg;ird to this business, only a
the books show, before the 18th of November; after the 18th of Novem
her, I have personal knowle~ige aiid am ready to explaii~.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Now, ~fr. Bostwick, (10 yoll know aiiytliiiig abo~it flie pork that
was receive~l here for I~ed Cloud agency after your arrival here?
A. Yes,sir.
(~.Aiid do you know an~thing of the ilispection of that pork?
A. Nothing, only what is niarked oil the barrel; aiid ~it the same tim
i~r. Saville at one time w-ts dowit here, and he was anxious to see the
1ioi-k aiid lie and I examined it together.
t~. tTow did you make that examinatioii?
A. By opeiiiiig a barrel.
Q. How niany barrels did you open?
A. We looked at some at Camp Caning, and also oiie barrel that wa
in this warehouse. I cannot say positively-maybe three.
Q. What kind of por] was that which you looked at? 
143
A. I can't d~scnbe it as por~-inen describe it, but I can describe it iny
way as to the quality.
Q. Just state your idea of it.
A. It was lean, sweet, pork.  That covers, I gless, all of it.  The
i>ork was more lean than fat.
Q. Thin?
A. ~Vdl, it was all       thicknesses, I guess; but the fat of tlie 1)01  was
thin; we examined it and found it was good, sweet i)ork, aiid good,
sweet brine; but it was more thin thaii fat.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. ~~hat kind of pieces were they; flom what l)art of the hog t
A. I could not tell excel)t that it was leaii i~ork  it was sweet and
all fit to eat, and did not smell had.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. Do you know what use tlie Indians niake of pork`
A. I do not, sir.
Q. You could not venture an opiiiion ~5 to wlietl~er this`v;is tl)( kiiid
of pork which would be I)ioI)eI ajid l~rofitable to sn~}~~ly to Iiidi'in~ ~
A. I do not, sir.
By the CHAIR~(AN:
Q. State what your books show iii referetice to tlie reeeil)t of hlaiikets
for Red Cloud agency since July, I~74.
A. There was received on the 22d day of September, IS 74, 33 b(')1C5
of blankets, weighing 11,773 poun~s; aiid, oli tlie saiiie date 2 l~ales of
blankets weighing 724 pounds  0! the 29th of the saiiie iiionth, 2 bales,
weighing 640 pounds.  The books show that there were sliiiipe(l to i~ed
Cloud on the 21~t of Septeniber, by Dick Duuii, a freighter for McCann
2 bales of blankets, wcighing together 724 pounds; on September 29, by
Juan Vigil, 35 bales, weighing 12,373 pounds.  These were all received
and sbipped before I came into office, and I state what tlie book shows.
J.           then         the triplicate of lading,     by I).
lUentioned above.  Be also produced the original of quarterly report for
the quarter ending 30th September, 1S74, showing tlie receil)t of 35
bales of blankets dii ring the quarter, and tlie shipmeiit of the same to
Agent Saville at Red Cloud agency.  Also the quarterly returns of the
fourth quarter of 1874, showiiig the receipt and shijimeilt of 2 hales of
blankets, same as above.j
Q ~~hat blankets have you received since you came into office-since
the 18th of September, 1574, and how have they beeti dispose(l of'?
A.I received, February 5 1875, 17 bales of blaiikets, weighing 6, 1()()
l~unds; and on ~Iarch 23, (that is tlie time we had that big storni.) I
~hij)[>ed 17 bales of blankets to Red Cloud ageiiQv  2 bales by I)ick
I)unn, and 15 bales by J. Small.  Now let me further ~t'itC, theuc is a
box of blankets, weialiiucv 44
in                      () 1)01111(15, that was slii1)1)ed at the 5'i~C tiiiie,
February or iii ~Iarch. They w~~re fiiie blankets. I thiiik tl~ey wele
511ip1)ed in March, but they were iiot receiveil f()i' a bug tiiiie; we were
li~()king them Ul) aiid lookiiig tlieiii iiJ) aiid coulil ii~)~: tiiid where tli(~y
"er~, and I wrote to the agent iii ~Iiuiieal~olis, by iiisti'uetioiis fl'oiu i)r.
~`~vill~, and teIegua~hed to liim 5CYCi'('il times that lie ri&tst liiid th;tt box
ol' blankets and finally they ~`ere fouiid at Couiicil l)'lilflS.
() ~Vliat became of those blaiikets
~. I forwarded them t() the a~e'ii~y-. 
144
By Mr. FAULKNLR:
~?  ~\~h;it do you u~ean ~)y t~!)( 1)1~4I)ket.~?  ~re t;iey diiYbre~t fron~ tlie
O1(1IJ1~IrY blaiik~ts issued to tlie II1(1~('I!1S?
~. They were.~ouie fiiie b1aI)k~ts that I ui~{~e".~t;ti~d (tiot of J))y own
kttt)\~'l~~lge) were sJ)e&i;~lJy oi~Ier&d for tlie ~hiet'.~, to take with th&~in to
\\~(i.~hl1)~ton  but they C~i(l il()t get them  in tin) C.  TI)is S the letter 1
IC(JCIVC(I itI referencc to it:
~~N1()N.'PA(~iFic I~j~.no~ I) CO~I1~AN y,
~~LNEI~~I. j:~~~~~~~.~ DLi'~it'u.~i~~j
(1~. P. Vning. gener:~i frei~lit ag~nt.)           (Jmolia, Nlay 22. l5~5.
DFAR SiR: In r~ply to your favor of tl~e 14th instant. I wonid say that one box of
l~iankcts consign~d t(.J I Savill~~s Scconnt I). J ~I&.~anii, &lteyenite. was held at Connc.il
J)'111tt'<. owin  to a ~~i5tind~rsttndin  r~garding the charges.  The box was ordered forward
on tl;e 17th tust.
Yjnrs truly,
1~.P. VINING
n rol [rri~1tt 1g~nt.
C If. B()sTwicK, L~~.,
(Viryeaae, IIyu~oiag.
Q. (Dan you show what tiiiie thQy were received here`?
A. 0, yes; it was only a sitort time ago.  By refrrence to the books
I find they were received on June 3, 1875, and shipped on tiie same (lay
by Dick Dunn.   lle took ti~em from the railroad freight depot to Red
(?loud agency.  {The wittiess here produced several samples of flour.}
These are samples of flour which I found in my oflice when I took pos5~ssion of it, anti they have been there ever since, and when I first caine
there were marked is they are now marked. I find among the papers
itt my oflice a telegram and a letter~from the Coininissiotier of ludjait
Affairs, addressed to my predecessor, ~Ir. Palmer, about the inspection
and forwarding of tIour.  I suppose the telegram preceded the letter.
Tlie telegram is as follows:
~ffi4SiiJNcToN, D C., 6, 1S74.
To S. H. PAi..~iEiI,                      (Received at Cheyenne, 6. if), a.)
CI.cycnae. IJ~. T.:
Au inspector will be appointed soon.  If flour should be forwardcd immediately, retain
saniple of that delivered to compare with san~ple to be sent  0110 New York.
EDW. P. SMITH.
Cuni fltissionr r.
Tite letter is dated September 2G, and is as follows:
DEPARTMENT OP TilE INTERIOR, OFFICE INDIAN AFFAIR.~.
TVos1in~0n, D. C., &~ptcmbcr 26, 1S74.
SIR: This office is in receipt, by re&rence froni tiie City National P~iik of Denver, Colorado, of an account in favor of John II. ~Iartin, for 90,400 pounds 0 flour. furnished tinder
date of 5th instant, for the Indiatts of the 1~ed Cloud agency.  This is supposed to be the
flour which you were directed to receive and forward, a saniple of it being retained to compare with the sample to be forwarded, proved on the inspection to be equal to saniple, to
gi~e certificate to that effect.  It will therefore be necessarv, before tlie said account can
be allowed for you to forward your certitiate that the flon in question was equal to the
saniple on which the contract was awarded.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant.
F
S. H. PAI.MER, Esq...D~. P..~MITH. Comnissioner.
tore-Kceper, lied Cloud 1~cary, ~Vi~ycane. ltyooiia~. 
145
CIIisYLNNE, ~~~. T., Satitrday, ~Ju[y:31, 1S75.
Preseiit: if()I1. TlloMAs C. FLLTcI~LR, ehairm~n, lion. B. ~Y. BARRIS, Iloti. ~iiARL~S J. FAULKNE~, and Proftssor (AEot~GE ~~. ATnERTON.
TIie CXtt~IiHati0n of ~Ii'. B0ST~~I(~K "(`A re~t~iii~d.
By the CllMRMAN:
(~.Is it ~feCann's agelit here who hires iilen a~i~l "`(`tI~1  to ha~il liis
goo~ts to the agency?
A. Not to my kno~-le~~ge sir.  I 5U{)p0.~C ~1l tlie tC.~!ii5 lie hiA are tlie
tC('i!~5 eoiitracted with, aitii~~iigl~ AOIIiCtiiil&A, ~`l cii aii e[)iergeney i.e.
liiire.~, extra teams are ptit iiito tlie service.
(? ~~~hen yon have oli li;ind a lot ~~f gooils or.~nj}plie.~ that you wait
to ~cnd up to the age [icy, how (10 you get the tc;iiii~ to SCii(l tiic;ii
& LTsually there are teaiiis lierc~te'iiiis thit have coiitract~ with ~I('Can ii; but if aii eu)erge!i('y requires that goods which arc here are
necessary to be forwarded to tlie agen~y, I hive sometimes got extra
teams, but with no authority from aiiy oiie, tliiiiking that it was part of
n)y business to get traiisportatioi~ aiid f0r~v'ird those goods to the agency,
because it was necessary to ii ave them there. For iii stance I have never
sent aiiy goods to Spotted Tail ~~~~(`~ at all uiitil this season  ~Ir.
Howard, when he was here a short tiiiie ago, Stit ed it was necessary to
have sonie goods at the ngeiicy;ts sooii (`15 I)ossihle.  All the teimS were
goiiig with goods to tiie 1~ed Cloud`i~~[i('~, I loa~l~~d Sinalt & Ames's
eattle and mule tfltiu at tlie l)riee of' ti'ansportatiou regulated by D. J.
~Ic,Cann.
Bv ~Ir. HARRIS:
(~.So ~Ir. ~IcCann hiS rio ~~ent here to niake si)eeial contracts?
A. I sup!)~se none but ~Ir. ~Vilde, cishier of the Fii'st Natioiial I3ank.
~I,~' in5tructi~~iis were thit ~fr. ~I~Canii stid ~ir. ~\~ilde ~vould pay the
freights, and ~Ir. \~~ilde would pay (`Ill tlie wagoii bills.
Q. Haven't you already said thit you were ~~r. ~IcC'tnn's agent to
employ teams?
A. Never in the world. sii'.
(~.I so uiiderstood it, aiid thiiik we have it so oil tlie record.
A. That is tlie oiily way I eiuploycd tlic tc'liiis.
(~.You say now you had no authority froiii ~Ir. ~I~Cann t() ii ire
(li'ivers or teLins ~vlicu aii elilergelicy required?
A. Nevei', sir; ii. I siid so it was by n~istake.
(~.I)o you liow s~y, and are you williiig to put your si~ii;iture to
it nuder oath, that yoii h;tve no authority aiid never liad;iiirhority
!rom ~Ir. J,`1, ~Ie(D'iiiii to em~~1oy te.'iios iii case of cinergelicy
A. I do say so, aiid will swc;ir to it now.
(~.~~~ell, you have done it and doiic it repeatedly?
A. Not repeatedly.
Q. Iii how many ii)staiices have yoii doiie it?
A. ~Iaybe two or three times in all, sir, aiiil that w;is oiily wheii it
was necessary to forward goods, aiid there was ilo other traii5ji0r~'iti0u
here to take them.
(~.Hadii't he aiiy other a~~eut iii town?
A. None except ~Ir. \Vild((, I 51i1)l)()se.
you know that \Ii'. ~\~ildc is a biliker,;iiiil <`iutlioriz~d to
~?~~ hills arid nothing else?
A. I uliderstand so.
1(11.' 
146
Q. Ttieii ~I~~aiiii l~ad i~o agent here with authority to employ transportati~~ii?
k. Noije ~XC~1)t ~fr. ~~il~le.
(? NVliy (10 you l)nt in the name of ~Ir. ~~~ilde, nnle~~ you know that
he lia~ ~nch anthority?
A. I sup~~ose lie liad anth~~rity.
(~.Do yo'J know that he lias authority?
A. No, ~sir; 1 iuerely 5flI)P05~ so.
ta{l0~nD~O yo'L i~n()W ot any persoii having authority to employ transpor  A. I do iiot.
By the CllAIR~tAN:
Q. Do you know anything ot tiie Indian goods being detained here
by rhe nii!roj4 company for non-pay1nent of freight?
A. There are sonic cars here on the track now, loaded with supplies
a~id goo~ls marked J. J. Saville and E. A. Howard, care of D. J. ~IcCaun, for Red Clon(1 and Spotted Tail agencies, which are held for payment of freight; some of them have been here three or four days, and
some of them five or six da~s, ~iid I believe sonle of them longer.
Q. lIow long, do you believe ~
A. Two weeks or more; and I would like to have it explicitly under.
stood that I am working for no party except the Indian Department, by
appoiiitii)ent of Agent Saville, and receive no coml)ensatioll from any
person only the indian Department, through J. J. Saville.
By Mr. lIARRIS:
Q. Do yon know whether J. J. Saville is receiving any compensation
for your services from any party except the Govern in cut ~
A. Not to my knowle~Ige, sir.
Q. And you have no information that he is ~
A. Not in the least, sir.
Q. Is the warehouse of I. W. French, in which your office is, occupied
as a (~overnmcnt store-house ~
A. It is, and has been from tlie 1st of July, (this present monili,) and, to
my knowled ~c, a lease has been made and forwarded to the Commissioner
of Indian Affairs.  By virtue of a letter of Acting Coin missioner Clum,
dated June 26, 1865, addressed to J. J. Saville, Indian agent, a lease has
been executed by ~Ir. French, aiid it has been forwarded to ~Vasliington.
Tlie tens otit are.~2(O per mouth forJuly,August,and September, 1875.
Mr. French (leelitietl tlie sum of $1,200 a year and accci~ted the offer
for Jtily, August, aiid September.  The following is tlie letter of ~Ir.
Clii in, and also lily letter of instructions from J. J. Saville.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, OFFICE OF INDI~N AFFAIRS,
!~`osltzugtou, D. C., June20, i~75.
SIR: In reply to your letter of the 21st instant, relative to the necessity of securing some
Snittble place at ~beyetine or sioriI~g bacon to be received at that point ibr sllipn0ent to Red
CloU(l agency and Spotted Tjil's, I have to say that, in the opinion of this Office, the terms
nanied by you for the rent of the warehouse of I. ~V. French are too high, if taken for the
year.
Y()tt are authorized, however, to make an offer of ~1,2OO for the use of said bitilditig for
one year, or.~o'Oo for the nionibs of July, August, atid September, that being the length
of time the warehouse will be tteeded for the pttrpo~e itidicated.
Very respectitilly,`our obedietit servant,
H.R. CLUM,
Acting Conirnissioner.
J. J. SAViLLE,
Cut led States Judjan Agent, Red Cloud Agency, A~lirnsku. 
147
RED CLOUD ACENCY, NEaR.,
Jz'Iy 5, jQ~5
SIR: Inclosed is a copy of a letter from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, relative to tlie
rent of the warehouse of I. ~~. French.  In case ~Ir. French declines this offer, you will ascertain whether a cellar can be obtained in which to put the bacon, and at what rent, and
report to me as soon as possible.
Respectfully, your obedient servant,
J.J. SAVILLE,
United Stete's indian Ag~`it.
C. H. Bos~wic~,
Gorernment Store-Keeper.
Q. I notice by the way.bills of goods detained here at Clieyeniie oil
account of the non-paymeiit of freight, that there were twelve car-loads
of goods consigned to J. J. Saville, and nine car-loads cot)sign~tl to i~.
A. Howard; that the way-bills are dated all the way froni Jtily 1 to July
29.  Now, I want to ask you whether any goods have been i-eccivcd by
you since the 1st day of July?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. State how many car-loads, and what date.  I mean  oods which
arrived here in the month of July; I do not mean goods that art-ived
here last June and were not discharged uiitil July?
A. You ask of me what goods have been received froiii tlie railroad
compaiiy in the inonth of July?
Q. Yes.
A. I received tso sacks of coffee, weighing 23,580 pouiid.e
Q. I ouly want to know whether you have leceived goods which arrived
here siuce the 1st day of July.  There is one car-load which arrived the
30th of June, which has not been discharged yet?
A. ~Vell,now, sir, I am not able to tell you when they arrived loere,
but I ~~ii tell you exactly "`to en I received the in from tiie ~~i~5.  I have
re~eived iii the. iiioiith of July, for Spotted Tail agency, 180 sacks of
coffee, weighing 23,580 pouitds, 298 barrels of sugar, weighing 75,283
That is all th-tt is on my books that I received iu ttte month of
~  ~Vere those inspected goods?
A. They were, sir.
Q. Have you weighed them?
A. I have, sir.
Q. ~Veighed them all?
A. Yes, sir
Q. And they corresl)ond in weight to the marks tlI)()Ii tlie pat-k.-iges?
A. There were no marks upon the packages, olily on the barrels of
sug-tr.  I took the marked weight upon the barrels of sugar; it I foutid
any that I thought was not intelligible (though I did not niid aity) the ii I
weighed it.
Q. You took the weight Upon the barrels of sugar?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Aboutthecoffee?
A. The coffee I weigh.
Q. Do you keep a record of tloose weights?
A. Only as appears oil my books.
Q. Do you make it correspond with the way-bill re~eived?
A. Not always, sir.  You will notice here th~~tt I tlon't. [Sliowiiig the
l)ook.j  I have entered on noy book, iti red ink, the followiiig "July 2i,
car 2532 checks out by liiy couiit atid the Vijiott I'acific ageiit's (CliCy.
enne) eouiit bnL 74 bariels.  The Iiaiosas I~acific 1~ailroad count is 75
b-irrels.  The whole weight is shoi-t but 37 pounds from the r-iilroad
 
148
~vciglits.' I (IOI)'t rely \vliolly ilpoil n~~-self.  I ai\v'Iys have soijic one
with`be to help check out, so tl~tt I ~~~ be correct.
By ~Ir. ATllLRTON:
().JIow is this weight on tlie b~rrels certif~e~1 originally
~. Here is so ii~nch gross, so niucli tare, aiid so much tiet.
Q. ~Vho certifies that?
~. I suppose that is certifie~1 by tlie iii spector's ulirk, which iPl)~~i~
on tlie hea~! of the barrel.  Ilis braiid`il)PCarS right oli the same head.
By ~Ir. 11APR15:
Q. Have yoii received any goods for tlie Red (S loud igeilcy for the
mouth of July, 1875  and, if so, what?
A. I bave, sir, as follows: July 5, 33 sacks of coffee, weighing 11,382
pounds; 275 barrels of sugar, ~~eighing C~~.),749 pounds; 47 barrels of
~~~`i~, weighiiig 11.382 pouiids.  That i~ all, sir; that is all I h1ve received bnt there are other goods that I have forwarded to tlie <.tgency,
but iiot floin cars.
Q. Now state~in your owii way.your warehouse.~vsteni~y~~iir niode of
receivil   oods, and ~onr iiio~le ot keepiiig accounts of goo~ls when they
are shil)ped away.
Y Nly general system is that I send the goods to Camp Carling.  I
bave the car take them right there.  Camp Carling is a mile and a half
from here.  All goods are sent there on the br;inch track.  If the car is
loaded with       I go and check the weights of the sugar on a little
book that I carry in my 1)ocket for that purpose, and theii plit tlie sugar
in the warehouse; an~l as sooii as I coiiie back to the oftice I sit down
and tiansfer the weights to niy receiviiig-book.
By ~Ir. ATHERTON:
~? i)o you transfer the items or the aggregate?
A. The items, invariably, sir; so inaliy barrels weighing so niuch; so
II)'t~~ s~icks of flour weighiiig so much.
By Mr. 11APR15:
f? Then you transfer the aggregate of each l~iiid of goods?
A. Yes. sir: I put the weights of each b~'trrel on niy check-book, aiid
then foot it iij), atid put the aggregate 011 Iny receiving.book.  1lonr is
also seiit to ttie warehouse. The coiltract is that flour shonl~l be received
at Clieyeiiiie.  Now, the contract is to deliver to the ageilcy  but that
ftr the Ch~yeiines an~l Aral)ahoes was to be received at Clieyeiiiie.
There I uiilt~ad tlie cars, pile theni in the`virellouse.  I often cli~~ck them
to kiiow the iiuniber of sacks, but I doii~t keel) any other account of
them. oiily as in ii~y check~book, untit I call upoii the inspect~)r to iiispect
it., aii~l tlieii whatever the ilisl)ector passes I receipt to lii iii for the
amount and carry the amount immediately on my books.
Q. Ii)i(l you weigh it or see it weighed?
A. ~Ye weigh together the amount which the inspector passes, and
I receipt to him for that aniount and carry it upon my books.
Q. Is that the s~stem pnrsue~l a~ ~~g~rds all goods?
A. Yes,sir.
Q. Suppose it was a case of blankets, would you do more thaii count
the case?
A. No, sir.  I would count the bales of blankets or ducking, or boxes
of merchandise.  I cannot tell what they contain.
Q. So that absolutely yon do not know anything personally about
their contents?
A. No, sir. 
149
By Mr. ATllERTON:
Q. Then you are simply a enstodian of goods?
A. I am store~keeper.
By Mr. llARRLS:
Q. When you forward the goods, what accotint do you keep of them?
A. I keep just the same account that I do in receivilig them.
Q. Now, what goods have you on ha'id here in this building?
A. Not one pound belongiiig to the Indian Department.
Q- No bacon?
A. I have some bacon, Sir, but it has not been inspected; it belongs
to Mr. Slaven~ and I consider it as his until it has been inspected.
Q. Then all the goods that are here are goods which have not passed
inspection?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I see yon have a large amount of flour here?
A. It beloiigs to Mr. Athorp.
Q. You understand that that flour was sold by Mr. O~Brien to Mr.
Athorp?
A. That I know, because I saw the transaction.  The transfer hal)pened right here in this office.
Q. But you don't know that it has ever been rejected?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you been so informed?
A. I have been informed, with reference to this lot which is here now,
that Mr. Coakley started to inspect it, but there was such a big lot of it
being thrown out that Mr. Martin became d~ssatisfied and would not let
them have any of it, and retained the whole hiniself.  The rejected flour
~lr. Athorp moved out, some 200 sacks or more, and gave some of it to
1~ease & Taylor to take charge of.
Q. ~Vas that flour here when you took possession of the warehouse for
the Goverijment, on the 1st of July?
A. It was, sir.
Q. Why is it stored here?
A. This store-house was used as a store-house for Mr. French, and I
only occupie~l this part as an office.  I stored no goods here belonging
to the Department.  These goods that are now in the warehouse, with
the exception of the bacon that I have received nuder this contract of Mr.
Slavens, are goods that were remaining in the warehouse when I took
possession of the warehouse, under the contract of July 1st.  I have
notified all the parties who hold goods here that I have been able to
notify, and as soon as possible all the goods will be oiit of tlie warehouse.
Mr. Athorp is somewhere between here and ILed Cloud agency, and I
will notify him when he returns.
Q.  Are there any goods now in this warehous~ iiitended for the Indian Department?
A.  Tl~ere is.
(~.What is it?
A. Bacon.
Q. Nothiiig else?
A. No, sir.
~?- That has not b~en iiispected?
A. That has not been inspected, but I will have it inspected  There
is a new inspector appointed.  As soon as I got word of who was al) pointed, I notified hiin at once of goods that I was liable to r~ccive at
any time, aiid I would like to have hini come down and see 3~C and
 
150
have an ii)terview with me, to know l~ow he wished to conduct the in.
spectioii to tlie best a~lviiitage.  His name is ~al)tain 1~~icliard 1. Eskridge, U. S. Ariiiy.  I ~ave a letter of instructi~)iis to advise lii in of
anything I have to iii l)ect. Thit is the reasoli the goods are lying
here-l~ecause they hiv( not been ilispected.
Q.N\~hat goods do yoi really iii tend to receive here in this warehonse
A.All goods belongii~g to the Red (~loud ai~d Spotted T(l~l agencies.
Q.Then you wonld`thandoli the Camp Carliiig warehouse?
A.Not necessarily, sir; I I)roposed to put bacon here in this buildino
this being a stone building, and as we have a cellar under the who~
pl<~tform that is very good; and after the goods are inspect~d, I put
them dowii in the cellar aiid keep them until they are wante~1. I received a letter from ~1r. Howard, agent at Spotted Tail, statii~g that
I niight hold any bacon I had for his agency at preseilt, and I hold it
until he wants it, because it is better to keep it here in tlie cellar than
forward it.
Q.Is this a better store-house thai tlie oi0e at Caml~ Carling?
~.(), yes, sir; very iuucl~ better.
By ~[r. ATllLPTON:
Q.ConI~l not arrangements be made for storage at C'~mj~ C~irliiig?
A.Not without digging a cellar.
(~. Conld you tell what woul~l be the cost of making a cellar?
A.I could not, sir.  If I was going to give a judgment iii the matter
I should say that perhaps to dig a cellar under the warehouse iiiiglit
cost a thonsand dollars or more; all the stone would have to be hauled
from the lower Black Hills ~o stone it.
By Mn HAPRIS:
Q.Are there any brick mide here?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.~Vhat is the vtlne of brick here?
A.I niiderstaiid tell d~~llars a thousaiid.
Q.Are the brick ~ood
A.~ery good-although I am not a judge; they say they ~`~~~ fltir
bricks.
Q.Now I see by comparisoll of the way-bills that there are at present
detained here in the railroad-cars 211.47() pounds of freight coiisi~iied to
Agent Saville at Red Cloud, on which the freight charges are -$` t,61~.~4
that there ai'e 1(34,9~O pounds offreightconsi~ne~l to Ageiit llowarti at
Spotted Tail, on which the cliai-ges are.~l,283.(~3.  Hive you 1)0 ~)O\ver
to pay that freight and receive those goods, witliont`vaitiiig fur ~Ii.
~[cCaun to pay the freight
A.I have not, sir.
(~. Do you kiiow whether?\fr. mIcCanii has delivered to you all the
goo~ls which he is bound to deliver during the iuoiith of July?
A.I do not, sir.
Q.Has Agent Saville called on you for any of the goods for liis agency
which are now letained iii tlie c;lrs, or for goods which yon have been
unable to furnish him which are 1)0W iii those cars?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.And can you state what kiiid of goods he calle~l for?
4 Yes, sir; floar.
~Ir. HARRIS. There is iione there.
~V1TNES5. You are iiiistakeii, sir.
~Ir. HARRIS. I am glad to know it. 
I5~
WITNESS. There is a car-load, as I am informed by the freight-agent,
(car No. 4042) containing 201 sacks of flour, weighing 20,000 pounds,
charges $10Q  That is on the Union Pacitic Railroa~i.
Mr. liARRIS. The way-bills I have here are of the Kai~sas Pacific
Railroad.
~~ITNESS. Then that expiaiiis it.
Q. flow long has that car been here?
A. That has been here about two week-s.
Q. And Agent Saville is waiting for flour?
A. lie so informed me.  Ageiit Saville notified iue that there is flour
wanted at the agency, a~d upon that I immediately notified D. J.
McCann, and also N. ~V. ~Vells, contn~ctor for flo~ir at Schuyler, to ftirnish one thousand sacks of flour immediately.  This floutr (the car~load
that is h~re) is for the Cheyennes and Arapaiioes. at Red Cloud agency,
and should bave been delivered before the first of July.  Tlie notice I
gave ~Vells to furnish flour is ou his new contract.
Q. ~Vhat goods have you now stored at tlie Cainj~ Caning warehouse?
A. Not a ponll(],sir.  I have liot a pound of goods ii~ iny l)ossessioii
belongiiig to tlie Iiidiaii I~epartmeiit, excel)t a barrel of lar~l-oil.  I mean
I have no goods iiiteiided for tlie use of the Iiidians.
CHEYENNE, N\~. T., Th~~rs~Iay, July 2~?, 1S7~.
Present, lloii. THoMAS C. FLETCHER, cli~tiriiian,, Hoii. B. ~V. IfARRIS
aiid IJon. CHARLES J. FAULKNER.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM L. COAKLEY~.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Questiou. ~Vhat is your busiiiess, ThIr. Coakley?
Answer. I ain dealiiig in fruits and vegetables.
Q. Do you reside here?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. State if you were at any time employed to insi)ect sonie flour for
the Iiidian I)epartineiit.
A. I was.  I caliliot give you the ex;~ct date.
Q. About what time?
A. About October, 1S74.
Q. ~~ho em~~loyed you?
A. Captaiit A. K. Loi~g, cointnissary of su~~si~teuce, Uiiited States
Army, stationed here at C~ieyeuiie.
Q. The flour you insl)ected ~`tS from where?
A. I ilIsi)ected flour ni~oi J. II. ~Iartin's contract, duriiig that fall5o?10e delivered directly by hiiiiself aiid another l)()rtioli of it, I ~~elieve,
by an Omali<'i man-aiid that poitioli had ~}revioiisly beeii iii~pected by
B~rclay ~Yhite.
Q. flurf~rd?
A. flis name wa~ iiot given.
Q. flow did you ~1i51)CCt that flour?  ~~~liat sanililes liad you to inspect bv?
A. The sami)les furnished l~y ~lie Indian Dep~rtment.
(~.Did the flour come up iii qu;ility to the s~'tiiiples you bad ~
k It averaged equal t() the san)l~les.
(~.Do you refer 110'v to tlie lot tarnished by ThIartii~, or to that ~vhicli
came from Oui'~ha ) 
152
~. That which I rec~ived of both lots.
~? N~ou rejected ~ou~e of it, tl~en ~
A. ~~es, sir; I rejected quite a considerable pol tion {)f it.
(? Do you recollect what proportion of the lot ffiriii~hc~l by ~I~rtin
you rHectel?
A. I do i~ot. One or two car-load~, I think I rejected alto~~etlier  (I
am speakii~g from nielnory now.)  lIe eomplaine~1 ~hat I ~`IS doing him
injustice by rejecting the amount I did rHect~ aiid I believe the Jndiaii
Department seiit out a regular inspector to invesUgate tlie matter.
Q. Do you know who he was?
A. I would recogliize the name but I have forgotten it now.  lIe s'tw
me inspect a car and was sati~fied that the inspection wis as it should
be.
Q. N\~as the flour that was shi~ped by ~Iartin to you piit~up in the
same n~anner as that which was shipped from Oniaha?
A. ~~es, sir.
Q. In double sacks?
A. Double sacks.
Q. Branded an~l stenciled?
A. Branded and stenciled; the only differeiice being that the Omaha
flour had Barclay ~~hite's brand on it. The other had not been previously inspected.
Q. ~That became of the sample which was furnished you to inspect
this flour by?
A. I carried it around some little time in my pocket ui~til it got dirty,
aiid then I threw it away.
Q. Do you remember who you received that sample from?
A. From the store-keeper here, ~1 r. S. II. Palmer.
Q. Do you know where Mr. Palmer is now?
A. I do not; I think he is somewhere in Michigaii.
Q. Did you preserve samples of the flour you in~pected?
A. I did preserve a few; I think I might be able to get them now; I
had no object in preserving them further than for my own SatisfLction
I was iiot called upon to do so.
Q. After inspecting the flour what did you do with it?
k I turiied it over, a portion of it, to the Government store-keeper,
taking liis receipt for it.
Q. That was the portio~i you liad passed?
A. A I)ortion of what I passe(1 I turiied over to him, 111(1 the re
inaind~r to;\Ir. M~Caiin, tlie coi)tractor, direct, takiiig liis ieceipt for it.
~? Do you kiiow what became of the rejected flour?
A. I (10 not.
().\Vliere w~s this flour wheii you inspected it?
A. Iii the cars, geiierally.  I woul~l have the bags piled ~l( iii a double
row arouiid (`111(1 g() through the ceiiter and inspect it all, so that I could
see every sack.
Q. Di(l you ever see ai0y of that rejected flour afterwar~1 aiiywliere?
A. I did see some )f it in the Iiidiaji store-house; and I think a short
tinie ago I saw soiiie iii a feed aii~I produce store here iii tow ii.
Q. lIave you izisliected other flour siiice that?
A. Yes, sii~: I have insi)ccted until recently all tlie flotir that has
been received here.
Q. Did you inspect that npoii saiiiples ftirnislied by the st~~re~ke~~per?
A. No sir; I di(l not.  I was instructed, as to the flour iec~ived siiice,
to receive a merchantible XX grade of flour.
Q. lIas all the flour you have irispecte~] siiice aii~l passed been equal
to ~hat grade? 
153
A. In my judgment it has been XX flour.
Q. Since the lots you speak of as fliruished l)y ~Iartin, and coming
from Omaha, and of which you rejected a coiisiderable portion, have
you rejected any from other lots-aiiy considerable portion of flour ~
A. No very coiisiderable portion-very lit~le oiily a sin all portion.
I n~ight occasionally find an itiferior sack in a c;tr, but as it amounted to
little, I let it pass.
Q. You were not in the Government employ otherwise than when you
were emi)loyed to i1051)ect flour?
A. I have been clerl~ing fur tlie (0el)ot quartermaster, Captain Long.
(~.How bug is it sitice you quit that eIul~l()ymeiIt?
A. I am still there, iii a measure.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. ~Vhat experience have you had as a conimissary or inspector of
flour?
A. I have had quite an extensive exl)erience: I have handled flour
n~ore or less for the last six years, inspecting and receivii)g for the Subsistence Department of tl~e Army.
Q. ~Vhat would you say as to tlie general character of tl~e flour received, and inspected, and passed by you since the time you inspected
the flour on the ~Iartin contract?
A. I should say it was a fair, merdtautable XX flour.
Q. Ho"-, as a whole, was the flour furnished bv ~Iartin?
A. Equal; it averaged equal.
Q. ~Yas it better?
A. Tbat was sup~~osed to be XX flour also.
Q. In your judgment-I am now a~~pealiiig to your judgment-is the
flour which has been furnished since Martin'~ contract better as a whole
than his was?
A. It might be a shade better.  The flour inspected since is 0t) ~~. S.
Potter's c~~ntract.
Q. ~Vhen you say the flour averaged equal to the sample, what are we
to understand by the word averaged?
A. Some wei~t a little better, and some not quite as good. For
instance, there would be a car of 2O() sacks, out of wl~ich there might be
from one to six or seven of rather infenor giade, but not eiiough to make
it any particular importance, and if the others averaged better I would
let theiii all go.
(~.~Yell, in that way might you not get some very good flour aiid
some very bad?
A. No, I took particular care not to get any very bad; ai~y that was
very bad I would reject?
Q. By whom were you appointed to this duty?
A. kece~itly, by the Indian Commissioner; previously, in tlie first
instance, bv Captain Long.
Q. ~~hen you say you were instructed to receive oiily XX merchantable flour, from wlioiii did you receive that instructioi)?
A. As far as my recollection goes, directly from the Indian Commissioner.
Q. Have you any letter or telegram of instruction from liim?
A. Yes, sir; but 100t with me.
(~.(~an you baud it in to the couin)issioners
A. Yes, sir.
(~.~Yill you?
A. Yes, sir  with l~l&asure. 
154
Q. In tl)i5 latter inspection, you have dctermined from your own cxpcricnce what XX flour is, rather than from any sample furnished you ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You rcmembcr the flour flirnished by ~Iartin hiinsclf on his contract?
A. Ycs sir.
Q. And that which you understood he fl~rni~hed by all Omaha man?
& Y~s, sir.
Q. N\~hich of those two quantities of flour was the better, as a whole?
A. That furnished by ~Iartiu direct.
Q. Aiid which was put up in the better form?
A. Tlic ft~rms were similar, as near as possible; both double sacked,
and both pt~t llI) wcll.
Q. ~Vh;tt is tlie usual weight of a sack of flour?
A. Niii~ty-eight pounds. That froin Omaha, I l~elicve, weiit about
riI)~ty, short weight coiisiderably, I know; be tweei~ eighty-eight aiid
ninety.
Q. I)i(l you weigh all the flour you inspected?
A. I averaged the coiitents of the C'i~ bv weighing from ten to twenty
sacks, as per ilistruetions from the Q'onini'issi~ner.
Q. Could you have told how many saeks weighed SS pounds'? Did you
know?
A. I have if down on the book from the estimate.
Q. But you did not weigh each sack'?
A. Nn, sir.
Q. Did you weigh tlie whole quantity?
A. No, sir; I aveiaged it all.
Q. NV hat would you call the average-{lo you now reiiieiiiber what
yoii c;illed tlie avera~e of the flour th~~re that caine from Oliliha?
A. I think it was SS pounds, now that you iuentioii tlie figures.
Q. By weigliiiig teil s~icks in a buiidred, tiken i)roiniscnously, you then
countel the whole car-load at the average weight?
A. Yes. sir.
(?- Is that the usual mode of determining the weight?
k That was lily iiistruetioii froiii tlie (?on~iiiissioiier.
().Y(')u have been iii the habit of inspecting flour in the &rniv?
Y Yes, sir.
Q. Is that your l)ractice there?
A. No, ~ir; I wei~lied all my flour there.
~?- Now. froni whom  (lid you receive this iiistruction; from Captain
I~oiig or the Couiiiiissioiier?
Y I may be c~~ntuse~l ii) regard to it. I was iii Captain I~ongs office
when the instructiulis were bciiig iceeived by him and myself, and I
sa~' tlieiii all.
Q. Did you receive specific instructioiis froiii aiiybody to weigh a part
from which to make the average?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You cannot i~ow say whether you saw a speciic instruction from
the Departuient t() th~it effect?
A. Yes, sir; but whether they were ad~lressed to me or to Captain
Loiig, I do not now renicinber. It was embodied in a telegril).
~`?- flave you still those iiistructions in your custody?
A. I think they are in Captain Loiig's custody; I caii get them,
thou crh.
Q. I wish you would look the in up.
A. Yes. Si I'. 
155
CHEYENNE, W. T., Friday, J~1y 30, 1875.
Presei~t: ilo'j. THoMAS II. FLETCHER, chairman; llon. CHARLES J.
FAVLKNER, aod llon. B. W. llARRIS.
TESTIMONY OF ISAAC W. FLENVIl
By the CHAIRMAN:
Qnestion. N\~here do yon reside, ~[r. Fre~ch?
An~wer. At Ch~veiine.
(~.flow long have;yoii resided here?
A. I have lived here sii~te July, iSk\7.
Q. ~V!i~re did you reside l~efoi'e that, J\fr. ~:ie;)~ll?
~. I lived in La I~ort&, Colorido; pi~vions to tli&'tt I lived ill New
York City.
Q. ~Vhit lias been your gefleril l~iisiiiess?
A. I have been a uierclj;iiit f~r tweilty-tive years.
Q. Did yoti ever deal in flour ~
A. To some extelit.
Q. Had some knowledge of tlie differeiit qnalities?
A. Yes sir.
Q. I will ask you to state, ~Ir. French, if you iiispected some flour at
Cheyeiiiie, coiisigiied to I~ed Cloud a~~e
A. Yes, sir; I examiiied in all ten  ucy ~
car-loads of flonr.
Q. At whose request did you (10 that?
A. At the request of Dr. J. J. Saville, the agent of I~eJ Cloud
agency.
Q. ~\~here did you obtain tlie saml)le n~)on ~-hich you inspected it?
A. I obtaijied it from the local st~)re- keej~er, at the office in Cheye!ine;
~Ir. Palmer W45 theii the store-keeper.
Q. United States store keei~er?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.You were given that sample as the sample upon which tlie bid had
been niade for furiiisliiiig tlie flour
A. Yes, sir lie showed it to me N\-ith its wra~)pings, ~~liicli ~vere under
seal, coiniiig- from tlie Dci~artineiit of Iiidiau A ttiirs it \~~i~hiiigton,
through tlie iiiails, as I uiiderst'in(l it.  I know it ~vas iiii~ler ~~il.
~t~ State liow much flour you iiisi)ecte(l.
A. I iiisi)eete~l teti c;ir-loa~ls coiisistiiig   of'~ O'~C) sack<.
Q. Aii'l hy whose directioii was it that you preserved a s~iiiiiile of each
car- lo;i~l ~
A. It was at the requcst of Dr. S;iville. I will state the whole circumstances.  Dr. S;iville (~aiiie (lo~\-ii from  tlie I)~ed CIonil agelicy, aiid I
ieariieil from lii in ((j5 a iii<'itter of geiieral iritei-est that he was short of
flour tlieie and he seeiiied t() be iii soiiie coiicerii about it. Lie saiil there
"-as flour on the track`ijid there wis n~~bo~ly to iIisl)ect it, aiid lie could
~ot receive it uiitil it was insi}e(~ted  that lie had made applic;ttion to
the Coinniissioiier for aii )lispeetor, ai\d - that lie Ii a~l got iiistriietioiis to
send oil fl()ui t~ut ti) ret~i1Ii ~ai~ii)le~ ot it until Ji4 ilisilector shi~uld be
appointeil.  The doctor said ti) iiie that it would be a favor to him if I
would go iiito tlie (`~irs anil iii~ )tGt tlie flour before it W(i5 shipped, so
that he ini~'-lit hot be 5oinl}ri)iniseil iii aily way by receiviiig a ~~)oor flour
at the ageli(y. lie stid that lie (li(lii t like ti) insl)eet it liiiiiselt here, aiid
did riot walit to have aiiy of tlit eiiil)li~v(~s ali~iut tlie ofht~e iiisl)eet it, and
as I had Stinie leisure here, lie ~:oultl lie oliliged if I`voulil iiisiiet.'t it as a
favor to hini, atid see that iione caiiie ni to the agelicy that was iiiferior 
15(3
to tlie s'iinI~le that he had here to guide nie.  I told him I would do so.
I iiispected the two car.loads which were }i~~re re~t~ly to be sl1i1)p~~d.  I
found the flour to be quite equal to the sample.  ~Iy recollection lOW is
that that l~articular lot I thought was quite superior to the sample.
Q.About how many sacks are there in a car, gencr~tlly?
A.About 200 sacks.
Q.1)i(l you weigh the flour?
~.I did not weigh it; I nierely inspected the quility of it.
(~. ~~~as that flour put up in double sacks?
A.Yes. sir; I recollect rather distinctly that it was ill don~~le sacks
in fact, I niade my hand quite sore shoving the prier through the two
sacks.
(~. ~Yas it all branded or stenciled?
A.That lot of flour was not branded " Indian Department Flour."
Q.~)o you recollect whether it had any brands on it at all or not?
A.Yes, sir; but whether it was all branded I could not tell positively.  I recollect there was a brand of the mill from which it camethe name of the flour.
Q.Do you know where that flour came from?
A.As I understood, the first lot of flour came from Denver.
(~. ~~~ell, in all, you think you inspected about ten car-loads?
A.Yes, sir.
By Mr. HARRiS:
Q.That would be how much?
A.Two thousand and twenty-six sacks was tlie ~~uniber I inspected.
By tlie CiiAiRMAN:
A.Di(l you reject ally of the flour?
A.I rejected 27 sacks out of it in all.  I cannot say I rejected it,
~~ut I advised the store-keeper not to send it up to the Doctor.  I
thought it was inferior to the grade, and I could ilOt consisteiitly pass
it, although it was not very poor flour; it was merely dark.  As I regarded it, it was a very good grade of Graham flour; it was made out
of fresh wheat, but it was darker than the satiple I had to guide ule.
Q.~Yell, was that which you passed and which was sent up to the
agency equal in quality to tlie sample?
A.I considered it so, at~d in some resl)ects superior to tlie san~ple.
Q.Tl~en this flour would average all around about equal in mercantile
value?
A.(~, yes. sir; I re~ar~led it a very good gra~le of XX flour.
(~. All (1 these are the samples that you retained?  {Pointil)g to sampies produced.i
A.These are the samples that I obtained from the cars.  I pressed
samples of the flour between sl~eets of white paper, coml)ared them together, tasted of it, smelled of it to see that it was free froin ulust, felt
of it to see that there was no grit ill it, ai~d saw that it was ma~le of
good, soui~d, fresh wheat, and altogether I thought it was as goo~t flour
as the Ii~dian wanted, and as good flour as I would want to eat, and
thought it fully equal to the san~ple.
Q.And what about ttie sacks that you rejected?
A.Those that I rejected, I didn't keel) a sample of that flour, because
I didn't intend that it should go to the agency; conseqneiitly there was
no need of keeping a sample; the whole of it was here as a sample.
Q.~Yhat was the appearance of that flour?
A.That of itself was very fair flour, but it was darker; it was merely 
157
a darker grade  it was eonsi(ierably darker than aiiy of this here; bnt
of itself I shonid not hav~ ~ondemiied it.
(~.Even it, yoii thiiik, would have ma(ie good, bealthy bread?
A. 0 yes; I should have l~eeu VC1~ glad to have got it if I had been
out of flour and (~onld iiot get ai0y eoiiveriieiitly.  I lecogilize the sa~l)1C5 here 1~rodnced as ~aiiii)le.~ whith I myself preservetl from  the flotir
inspett~d by ine. TIie l)()XCs are`it;trke(t iti niy h'iIid'vritillg. [i?he san~I)les were niarked (__ J~ E i~, ~~, ~I, I, aiid Ii.J  Ttie instruinetit I use~I
tn iii s1 it~ctiIig was of the saitie t'l;iss as a l~utter-trier, but no t quite as
ltiiig: it ~vas l~iiig ~nou~ii for all I~raetieal l~Iir1)oses.  I ~i5 it I~e(t
(?lontl;i gelicy iii Xovt~iiiber, oii t!ie sailie d;iy that I~rotessor ~Iaish was
thert, ~~~heii the provisi()iis were beitig issu~d to tlie Iiidiaiis.  I hear~1
tilit ti tse   s~~t s of flour whith Itatl been rejetted l~y inc h;id gone to
tiie agtii(~y through a iii~5t('tl~C  aiid litiiig desii'ons of leariiiiig if the
Itid~('iii5 ()U`lily bo&ty else had iiotit'eti it, I talketl with letl (flontl and
J~ed I)og ()ii tiie stibeet tlii'oii~'li their fi'ieiitl aiid iiiteri)reter, Nitl~olas
J('ii)~5.  1 aske~i theiii if they hid discovered aiiy poor flotti' iii tlie first
lot ot flour tilit caiiie u~) since ~tlgust-" this year's flour;" I used that
teriii   atid they saitt 100, the flour this year was better tli;tii it was last
ye'tr, l)Iit they diii not like tlie pork, and they i)referred bacon.
~~. J)id they siy auythiiig about the pork being bad?
~. They (litlii't ineiitit)ii it as beiiig bad, hut they sai~! the pork was
iiot what they wanted; they would rither have bacon; they (lid not like
}it~rk.
(? Di(l you see any of that pork?
A. I ditl, sir; I saw it while it was beiiig issued, and saw sonic of it
after it was issued.  I thought in y self that the IlidituS were right about
it in one sci Se of tlie word-not because the pork- was poor, but they
didio~t see iii to iiiake that lose of tioc pork that white people would; they
cut oft' soiioe l)ortioiis, and threw away just as good portions of it as those
whit! they cut oft'.
(~.J)id you exatnitie that poi'k ~
A. ~~cll, I looked it over generally.
t? Diii it seem to be sweet i)ork
A. 0, yes, s~r; it was iiot rusty at all  it seeu~cd to be 5()tiiitl, white,
ii ice i)ork, as s~tlt pork generilly is.  I saw olie barrel t)f it iolltd out,
`tiitl the Iiitliaiis opeited it themselves.  They kiit)cked oft' tlic 111)01)5 anti
it felt`ipart.  T lie brine and salt all iiassed oft tri~iu it, aii~l, as it looketi
to inc, tlie fau~ily of loidittis tli;tt ~`tS aroutid there, (there are sometimes
a coulile of liuiidreii iii olie taiiiily,) wh cii tlie liOOl)S`V crc kiiocked oft
and the briiie was s:l\illed out oii tlie grouii~l, tlie bucks of tiie fliniily
~ cut in aiid tlieii di~ ided to!) tlie wholt b~trrCl, atid ga~ e it out to each
one of tite fanoilics that stood ai'ouiid in a circle to receive their l)ortioiis of it.  I stood by and saw that, atid 1~rofcssor ~I'trslt was near
me and saw it too.
(? i)id you see any other p{~rk issued?
A. 0, yes, sir  I saw quaiititics ot' it issucil; l~ut tli;it was tlie only
barrel that ~ ~s issued iii that`V ay.   I lie b~laiitc \~ as i~sucd t!ii'ottgh
the orifice of the partition.
Q. This secuied to be a fan)ily large ciiougli to have a whole birrel?
A. ~es, sir; I understood it so at that tinie.  I uiidersti~od that it
was given them to divide au~ong themselves iii their c wii w;iy.
(~.~){ere you there at the issue of the annuity gi~od ~?
A. ~es, sir, it was oii that occa~ion.
Q. You saw the issue of the anuuity~goods?
A. Yes, sir; I saw all that. 
15~
Q. ~)i(l you notice aiiy blankets that were issued to them?
A. I saw them all.
Q. Did you exanoine tlieno?
A. ~Veli, yes, to soiioe cx[&~n[; not as an expert; I merely looked at
them there.
Q. In reference to the iiiarks that were on the blankets  " U. S. I.
A. I saw that.
(~.Did you exaiioiiie [lieui closely, to see wlie[lier [lie nark had rotted
or injured [lie blanke[ ~
A. I examined the blankets geiierally, and saw no decay of the material in tlie vi~ini[y of tlie mark.  The marks wete bl;i~~k, and they were
U. S. I. D.,~' aiid about tlie center of tlie blanket.  It seemed to be
niarked about tiie s'iine as an or(liii<~ry (;overiinient sol~~ier blanket,
although tlie " U. S. was of a smaller size than tiie  U. S.~' on a soldier blaiik~t.
Q. Did you ever notice the kind of coffee [hat they issued [here?
A. I saw the coffee.
Q. \Vhat kiiid of coffee was it ~
A. P~io coffee; I thiiik it was average Rio coff~e.
Q. About tlie same as is ordin~rily usetl by [lie people of this con a[rv ~
A. ~Vell, yes, sir; I so considered it; the average grade of Rio coffee.
By ~~r. FAULKNER:
Q. Ilad yon any opportuloity of drinking any of tlie coffee ~
A. Not iii any of their tepees, but I drank coff~e at [lie igeilcy all the
ti iiie.
Q. I iiiean of the coffee we are iiow pea'~ii)g of.
A. I am unable to say where the coffee canoe fr~im.  ~Ir. Saville tells
~e that it was sonoc of that coffee.
Q. Did you examine that braiid with aiiy degree of atteiitioii?  ~Vas
your attention drawii to [lie fact that the chenoical substaiice with
which that brand was imioressed in [lie blaiiket might rot it~
A. ~Iy special attentioii was called to [lie braiid, iiot particularly for
that purpose, bnt for another.  ~Ir. Aiitonie Janis, brother of Nicholas,
(he is one of the old frontiersman here that I have known ever since I
came to the country,) was standing aiongsi~le`lie and lie drew my attentiou to the U. S. I. D.  N~~lieu [lie In~tians w~~uld take [heir blankets tloev put them on their backs; it was siiowing, aiid of course
a hundred or so would pass ~~`i~ from us with [his U. S. I. D. on the
back of each oiie, aiid to their view it preselited a kiii (1 of 0(1(1 effect,
and each was tiirniiig aiid chiffing [lie other for haviiig`i braiid on his
blanket, wlieii he lii a self liatl one oli liiiii, aiid Aiitoiiie s;Li(l to inc that
they did not like that U. S. I. I)., beciuSe they thonglit it w;is;~ kiiid ot
a staiii upoii [hem, a sort of s[igiiia, that OliC liad to siiiile it [lie other on.
I told him that he could explaiii [hit to tlieiii ver~ Cisily, that it lid not
amount to anything.  He 5'i~(i he iiiiderst~~od it, of course; lie lia~l livetl
with the Indi;ins thirty years aiid kiiew [heir peculiarities, and it didn~t
amount to anything so far as lie wis eoneeriied, but they looked u~)ou
itas a damage to the blanket.
Ttie poiiit of~iny iliquiry was this whether you had examined it,
felt it, and pulled it so as to CX;iiiiiiie tO SC  ~~hether tl~e eficet of that
br~inding had been t9 w{aken tioc tliiea~l ~
A. I did iiot examine it.
~Ir. FAULKNER. It was a new experimeut, a new chemic~I put en 
159
by a firm in Philadelphia, and it is our duty to see whether its effect has
been injurious to the biaiiket, so as to I)Ut a 5t01) to anythiiig of the
kizi (1 it~ the future.
~VITNEsS. I remeu~~~er I tOl(i ~~ntoiiie at the time that it would not
last very bug; t hit it ~`t5 a ii~ark just on the out~i~le, so that it didn't
I)enetrate int~~ the thre'~ds.  That was n0y observati~~n to hiiii at that
tinie  that they need not care much about it, because it would soon
wear off, because it was not woven iii to the blanket at all; it ~~15 merely
at outside stanip.
by ~Ir. IlARRIS:
Q. Now, what notice did you take of the pork; how n~uch atteittion
~l~(l y()u give to it?
A. I ~I~~ it considerable attciitioit, fi'oti~ the fict that I tliotiglit it
w~ts a great loss.
Q. I)id you see the Indians cuttitig off tlie liork atid throwing away
~~art?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Iiu;ne(liately tiI)0ti receiving it?
A. Yes, sii', aii~l saw the l)ieces that they had thrown away, and drew
their attention to it, and tolil them it was good, in lily way  I`visIted
them to understand from me that I considere~l it just as gi)oil as that
they threw away; but they said "0, no," arid didn't regard my view
of the hatter as of ally value to them whatever.
Q. Did they coniplaiu of it iii any form?
~~. No more thinjist that.  The only observations that I heard at
all from tlie In~lians about the i)ork "`as what I have stated, that Red
Cloud and Red Dog said they I)referre~l bacon to l)ork.
Q. \\~ell, could you judge whether this was old pork, whether it had
apl)areutly beer lacked a good while?
A. I should uot have so cousiilered it from what I saw of it; it looked
white and fresh, tlie und of it didn't look like as if it had beeti long in
the brine; it ~lilu't look rusty or anything of that sort; there was no
rust on it whatever, and the lean of the pork looked lively and fresh, as
I saw it lying on the ground after they had cut it off.
By ~fr. FAULKNER:
Q. ~Vhat parts or pieces of the hog was this pork?
A. It ilidu't seem to have any ()f the head or ~t~5 or hocks about it;
it "`as that l)ortioii of tite liog thit hail the least t~oue, app;irently; the
sides, slioul~lers-I doii't know that I obsi~rved tite shoulilers esl)e
ciall~'-the sides.
By Mr. liARRIS:
Q. flow was it as to being lean or fat?
A. I thought it was a fair average in that resi)ect; niore fat than
otherwise.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. \Vhat seemed ti) be their ol)jectiori to the pork, ThIr'. Fretich? Tliev
etit oft' parts ot it an~l left l)arts; that would le;ive some irlil)L'es~lon
ill)on your mind of their l)artic~rlar objection.
A. That was the very (~tiestion I tried to learn from  them   I w<qs
aiixi()ils to leata what was tlieii' objection to that I)ortiou ot the 1)ouk
they threw away.
By Mr flARRIS:
Q. Could y~)u tell what part they did throw awa,~ ~
A. They seemed to throw away equal parts. 
160
i~~ ~[r. FAULKNEi'
~? N()t olily QtjU'~ii~ good, blit of tIi~ ~~iiie t11(1I(iCt~I
~. ~~~s, ~ir.
($).?\Ii'. ~~~flCh wbat did yoii llIIdeI'~t~iid t1i~in to fl)(~<'~I) when th~~
distiiigui~h~d bet~ve~ii 1)01  (~11(1 1~i~~~~ i,;i~~or~1i~ _ to thQii i~I~a?
~. ~`1ie J)('iCOfl ~ as sfl1ok~(I ~i(I(?S, (if y, atid 5~C!Ii~(I to 1~e cnrtd bett~r.
~?  And tile other ~(`i~ t)i(~k1~d, WiS it`?
~. The ~~ther ~vas iii!)IiIIC iii birrels.  They h;id fl~rniei'1y been feedilig oil bleon, and they N\(~1-C t~t1~iiig }iork that ye;tr for tlie tiist year, as
I uiider~too~1 it.  i-he:- ~eie i)erfe~~tJy finIili'tr \~~it1i 1);ie~~~i aii~I I)referre~I
i~ to the i-atio~ of pork they`vere gettilig that ye;ir.
by ~Ir. llARPIS:
~? Do y()fl know 3. ~A~. T~. S1a~-ens, tlie CO! tra~'toi'
~. Ye~, ~ir; I niet liiiii here illout a iiioiitli a))
~? I )id yon kiio'v liini <`it that tinie?
A. No ~~ir.
().Yon say of this pork as f<tr as you exaniiiieil it, iione of it was
old or strolig, or rusty ~
Y No, sir; I should regard it as a very good quality of i)ork  I have
~old l)ork ret) ii for several years at a Cotilitly stoic, aii~I seen eousidei'al~le of it, aiid I slionid regar~l it as a good quality of i)ork.
Q. Did you exaliline the character of the blankets?
A. Yes, sir; I exaniined tlie blankets in a general way.
(~.Are you faiiiiliar with that sort of ~ootls ~
A. Yes. s~r; I ha~e l)ouglit aii~t sold blankets a g~ti)~l hilly years, as
1 iliereliant.
(~.~~~hat was tlie quality of those yoii di(1 exa!tiiiie
A. I should littt i'egard them as the Lest tj)iality by ally nicans; they
Nvere aii avelage 1)1<')!) ket.
~? Iii the tli~tril~ntioii of thciii did you lie;ir aiiy eoui~}l<'iint i~ade
~. Nt)t st~e~~ially  iio sir.
? ~~~liat was tlie tli()(lC idopted of distributiiig tlie aIinuitv~coods
A. ~~~ell, it seeiiieti to inc that, as I ii ii ~lcrstood it tliei'e at tlie tinie, the
I iitliaiis were ~livitlett tlj) iiito taiiiiiics, an~l cieb head of a f<'tiuily hitl a
tit'ket ~`ioin tl'.c oflice rcl)rcsentiiig so many I)Cr5()ii5; the aniinity-gootls
were ol)eIic(l, tlie boxes were all oiiciicd iii tiie warehouse, aiid Dr. Saville
stoo(l there with his hook <`111(1 his elerks, ai\d lie would e;ill oft' so iiiaiiy
hatchets. iianiii)g tlie chief. (1~ed Q'lond, for iiistaiiec,) so nialiy blankets,
~> nitIly t)()lts of teiit-elotli, so inlay pieces of chico, St) ui<'tiiy 1)fiii'S ot'
hoots, uiitil tlie li~t w;is goiie through with, aeeordiiig to tlie number of
lii peot le,;iiid these gotids were takcii by tlie attcii~laiits oiit of the
wirehouse iii to the y<ird iii froiit of tlic warehouse aiitf Iltit (lOw)), aii~I
I~~ d ~loud, 01' wliielie~~er duet they w crc intended tor, ~\- 01)1(1 g;itlier iiis
tainily arouiid them  to tike care of theiii; aiid when liis list was Cl()s('(1
+hcii the next ticket <~ a~ i)i~~~ntcd, or the next call C<')iiie ~itt.
().Did you see tlic bI)ok that lie kept ~
A. I (li(1 not exaiiiiiie it particularly  I saw it iii liis li;iiitl.
1~.~\`hat kind of weither w;ts it at tli<'tt tiiiie
A. It was a storiiiy day, consideribly storiiiy.
Q. Pretty Cold ~
A. ~es, sii, quite cold.
(~.~~~as there aiiy coniltlaint by tlie 111(1 ~<`ii)S that they had not receivetl
their a~iiuit~~oods before      I discovered froni tlieiii at all; they
A. ~o special C0uilil~)iiit thit
scenied to be very niucli giatified to think that they hid got tlieui. 
161
Q. Did you hear any chief or Indiaii complain that he had waited for
them until the cold weather, and ought to have had them b~fore?
A. No, sir; I understood frorn several of what we call the squaw-men
out there, that they had been w'titing a long tin0e for them, that thQv
had come two hundred miles, but the a~'ent would iiot issue the goods
until the Indians were counted.
Q. N\~hat do you mean by  squaw-mail?~
A. ~~~e mean ii) eii who have m'ii?Fied aiid ii~teriiiari'ied with squaws,
`ind have got half-hreed f~n~iiies.
(? \\~ere they makiiig con~plaint (lf tlie agent?
A. Sou~e of tlieu~, oiie or two ot' tlieiii co1i)i)laiiied that lie lia~l bee ii
~~toJl~)ing there a long tinie away froii~ his raiicli for liis share of the anunities, and liad`iot l)eeIi ibiC to get tl~em uiitil now.
~t~ It was stateil 1)V some of the Iiidiaus that tiie I)octor liad iiot issued
the goads hecanse tlie Itidians would not I)ermit t1ien~selves to be counted?
A. Yes, sir  thit was the statement of soineof the Frenchmen around
there.
Q. Do you know anything about the number of Iudiaiis at the agency,
~Ir. French ~
A. I do not know the exact iiumber that was there at one tiiue; I was
told by Mr. Janis that there were many in ore there on that occasion
than there bad been at any one fime for the whole year; a great many
more came in from the North, he said, thaii he thought would be there.
Q. N\~ere you present at the issue of the beef-ration?
A. Yes, sir; I was there, (it was on the 14th of November, the same
time that Professor Marsh was there,) sitting in a buggy.
Q. Did you see the cattle ~~
A. I did, sir; I saw them in tlie corral, and as tI~ey left the corral,
and saw some of thein shot.
Q. ~Vhat could you say of them?
A. I can oiily say I was a good deal surprised at the report iii the
New York papers, and the report that Professor Marsh made, of the
cattle beiiig poor, a scrubby lot of cattle.  They did look to me at that
time, while in the corral, a little ragged, from the fact that it was a stormv
day, there was a good deal of rain and 5110W on them, and the hair was
wet, aiid their fraiiies ~vere n~ore prominent than tllQy would have otherwise looked, ai~d they (lid look a little gaunt  but I di(lii't coi~si~ler that
as anything particular; they had iiot had aiiy water probably for some
hours but t~h~ average coiiditioii I thought was  Q. ~~~hat as to weight or size; do you know aiiything about the
weight of cattle ~
A. I ain iiot a judge particularly. iiot suflicieiit to avefl~ge a herd of
cattle`vithiii fifty ou a huiidre~i pounds in each head of cattle.
Q. You say` to average  tlieiii  do you uiiderst;iti~l that to be the
system~tliat tlie catfle are averaged ~
A. No, sir you si)eak of tlie whole as a ui~it. as I un~lerstand you
(~.Yes.  I hid asked you whit their size`viS what`vis tlie heaviest
Ox you saw there accoi'diiig to ~()i~F lest ~iu~lgiiieiit
~.Twelve liuiidred l)Oflii(ls.
(~  ~nd what the lightest
A.I sh~~nld hot like to l)ilt I1?y 01) Il~))1i ag'iiiist aiiy~tli iii  of tli'lt sort
1 di(1Il~t give it special atteiitit~ii  thev were l<'ii'ge Tcx;is cattle, liad
~ (`iv l;irge lioriis.`111(1 1 reg'ii'ile(l tlieiii`15`111.`ivei~ c l()t (If Tex~is c~ittlc.
~? J)() you kiiow whether they ~~-ere tat cittle 0 l(~'t11
& I regarded tlieiii`~s aii`iverIge l()t of CittIC.  I (li(I liot lool ~l)0li
rli~iii as stall-fed cattle or vcr~- Il~)or-'i goo~l avi rige l()t I)!' c;ittlc for
11 ~ 
162
tbat tinie of ye~r; t1~ey iiatural]y wot'ld be good at t1~at tifl)C of year.
I did iiot reg'~id th~tu at all as an e~peei~tily ~)OOr lot of eattle~ that i~,
i)oor iii flesh.
Q. J)id ~ou have ally eonversatiou`vith I~rofessor ThI<lr~li ol tli(it day ~
k Yes, sir; eoiisidt~nihle.
Q. L~pon the snbjeet of these supplies?
A. No, sir; not oil that subj~et.  ~Ve were t~ilkiug boiies at that time
be was a bone-sharp, and I was interested particularly with hini in getting boiies for hiul.
().Lut iii ieference to tlie distribution of sllI)ll}ies or al~nuity goods,
or anything else UI)Oll the subject, did you havc any conversatioii with
hirn ~
A. I doii~t know that f did, a'iy more thaii he was expressilig liin~seif
with a degree of surprise; it was the first time he had ever see ii anything so wo~~d erful as what he was looking at at that ti~ne there.
Q. Did he commeiit upoli any part of the distribution as wrong or
irregular ~
A. No, sir; not to me at that time; be didii"t seem to express hin~self that he was discovering any trau~ls or anythii~g of that sort at all.
By the CllAIPMAN:
Q. Have you frequently been to P~ed Cloud agency ~?
A. I was never there only 011 this occasion.  I wei~t there on a tour
of curiosity, to see the issue of annuity goods, and ki~owii~g that there
~ould be a larger number of Ii~dians congregated there than on aiiy
other one time that I would bappen to be there, and I h~d a~ opportaIlity of going over in a very comfortable conveyance and good company,
and I availed myself of it.
Q. Have you ally interest in aliy beef-contract for supplying Indians
or for frei~~hting goods to them, or anything of that kind?
A. None whatever, and have never had any, directly or indirectly; I
am not all Indian-ringer.  I would like to be under oath iii makiiig that
statement, because there is a jury Last of ine.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Did you see Dr. Irwin, agent of the Shoslione Indians, during the
insl)ection of flour?
A. Dr. Irwin was here for some flour, complaining bitterly that be
could not get it.  He had his train np at souie l)Olrlt on the railroad, I
thiiik it was Bryan, under pay.  The Iiidians weic out of flour and there
was plciity of flour here, and he could not get it, arid he got quite ner
vous over it: an~l there ~-as 110 inspector here, and he seeiiiud to express
liiiiiself tliit' there niust be sonic giand swindliiig soliiewhere. lie (~oilld
not uiiderstaii~l ~~liy lie could liot get his flour-the ~i'ov~~rnineiit`viS
ready to pay for it-and he wis do~'u h~~le f~r it, aiid the In(liiiis were
stirvilig,`ln(l 50 01).
(?- Did lie call your atteiitioii at ally tinie to tlie quility of lily
flour?
A. Yes, s~r: lie said,  Thit flour is good eiioiigli f~~r liie, if you will
only just ~hi1) it ill) 1~r ilie; I (l()ll~t wait aii~ other i1lsl)(~cti(JIi tliiii wli;it
I see; liiy I ii&l~(lIi5 will til~e that froiii iiie if I (~(`Iii ~~iily ~i~t tlie ll~~ilr.~'
TIlit w;is his lalign~i~e (15 near as I can recollect it; lie slioke witll
exciteiiieii t.
(~.I)id lie or iiot, at any tiiiie, call your atteiitioii to or Spelk of tlie
bad quality of ally il~~ur that he s;iw when here?
A. Not at all  but he spoke of it especiilly as good enonob for him,
if be could gct it.  He said hiS trains were un~Ier an expeiise at ten dol
lars a (iay. 
lu3
(~.Do yon kiiow whether he saw Dr. Saville at that time?
A. I doii~t think he saw the doctor; he sa\~ tlie loc~il store-keeper, ~Ir.
Palmer, who had no authority to giv~ lijin any flour, and that made him
very`ingry.  Dr. Irwin sai~l to iiie tli~t h~ hid iiiforiiiation from ~lr.
~Iartin tilit?\Iirtin had seiit hi iii tl~iur lier~ to Cheyenne for inspection,
and whcii iiisl)c&'ted lie conl~l let hiiii have it, aiid lie wis annoyed to think
that lie could Jiot get it shi~~ped 011 ~l) to hiii0.  I had no anthority to in~i)ect aiiy flour for hia~, coti~eqneiitly I could fli)t take aiiy action in the
ili'itte~.  N\~hat I was doiiig was as a favor to 0~r. ~aville.
TLSTI~lONY OF JOHN HEP~~iAN bUSLi~l~.
b)y the CllAIRMAN:
(?uestion. ~Vhere do you reside, ~1r. Bosler?
Answer. I reside in Carlisle Pa.
(? Are y9n acquainted with one James ~&. Foreman?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~~here does be reside?
k In Cumberlaiid Connty, Pa. His bid was dated Omaha.
Q. How long had you known him before that
A. I had known him tor some years, sir.
Q. Does he resi~le in Omaha now ~
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know where he does live now?
A. He lives in Pennsylvania.
(~.Do yon know where in Pennsylvania ~
A. In Cumberland County.
Q. Do you kiiow how long he resided at Omaha?
A. I do nOt think that he ever resided at Omaha.
Q. Do you know M. C. Herman or David B. Herman ~
A. Davi~l B. Herman, yes, sir.
Q. NVhere does he live?
A. He is in i&ansas at present.
Q. Do you know where in liansas?
k I doii't kiiow, ut this time; perh~'~pS Ellsworth, orWichita,orGreat
Bend.
Q. Do you know where ~I. C. Herman lives?
A. He lives in Carlisle, Pa.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Do both the Hermans belong iii Carlisle.~
A. I). B. Herinun is a westerii man.
Q. Is he not the brother of the other man?
A. Yes, sir; but he has been in Iowa for a nnmber of yeurs.  They are
natives of Cuinberlanil Coniity, bnt D. B. has been in Iowa since`65 or
`6(;.  He is halt of tlie time iii Sioux City and part of the time in I~ansas.
lie was in tlie cittle-trade several years ago.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. ~Vho is Josei~h Bosler; is lie your brothcr
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~Vhere liies lie reside?
k Iii Carlisle, 1~'i.
Q Di(l yon hive a coiitract for fliru~shiug ~eef or any other supAic3
for the Indians prior to 18-4? 
164
&. No, ~ir: I have iiever had a coi~tract for s~~plyii~g any of the Indiaii~.
Q. ~\~e11  (lid your b'otIiei~ b;tve such a coiitract?
A. ~. \V. Bosl~~r has ha~i several coutracts.  JI hiS liad a coiitract
f~~r Fort P~erthold for two ~~ir5, for furiiisliii~g bee~'~~attle.
~? ~Vhat years were th&~~e, do you recollect
A. The two l)ast years,;ir.
By Mr. llAPPiS:
~? J. ~V. is not jose1)h?
A. No, sir.
~? ~~~hat is his first naiue
A. james.  I have never l)Ut in a bid for Indian contracts iii my life.
By the CIrAIRThIAN:
~? ~\~ell, did either ot your brothers have any contract that you know
of l)rior to tlie la~t two years?
A. Noi~e that I know of.  Oh, yes, sir; j. ~V. Bosler had a contract
for fiii'uishiiig beef 011 the Missouri River  It was when Commissioner
Paiker was Commissioner of Indian Affairs' I cannot tell you the year.
I have been in this country only three years myself.
Q. Do you know anything of the contract that was made by J. ~.
Foreman for furnishing beef for Red Clond agency?
A. I know nothing of the contract, sir.
Q. Do you know anything of the contract that was assigi~ed by Foremai~ to Paxton ~
A. I know nothing further than that I am here to fill that contract
for N\~. A. Paxton of Omaha.  I mean I am here attendin gto the details.
~? N\~liere do you get cattle from to fill these con tracts ~
A. ~~e generally buy them at Ellsworth, Kansas, and 011 the Platte
1)~iver, between Ogallala and Plum Creek in Nebraska.
Q. Are they what are usually called Texas cattle?
A. Yes, ~ir; Texas cattle.
Q. You don't know what time Foreman's contract "-as assigned to
Paxton?
A. No, sir; I never seeii the eoiitract till I saw it at tlie agency out
here.  I al~ acting for James N\~. Bosler, in filling this contract for PaxtOn.
Q. Now, (10 you know of James ~Y. Bosler having any contracts here~ofore floli) tlie Government direct?
A. lie Ii id these two contracts I spoke of at Fort Berth old. lle is a
l~idder every year, I think.
~? Do you thil)k he ~as a bidder last year, or do you know
~. I tliiiik he was sir
(~.At the time tlie contract was awarded to Fore in (ill
A. I think so, sir.
(~.J~o you know any reason why be could not bid for ccii tracts
~. I know of none in the woi~ld.
~. Did you ever hear of ai~y?
A. Never heard of ally.
(~.Now, iii a drove of six or seveii liniidred of these e.ittle as you buy
them-of course you buy them  with leference to the tillilig of this coiitract?
A. Yes, sir
Q. You select su~~li cit tIe is you thii)k will fill the coi0tr~i~~t iii`veightr,
&. ~Ve buy a majority of these cittle from four or live differejit nien
- I tliil)k tlie niin~ber woald eiiibrace half a dozeii ineii-and buy them 
lC5
in large qnantities, six or seveii thonsand bcad.fron~ one ~)erson.  Onr
contracts always C~ll for cattle of fonr years aiid u~}ward, cow~
and beeves: we call beeves four five, aiid six years.  Those are the
kiud of cattle we have alW~y5 coiitractcd for, and they ajin to ~icliver
them as near as possible.  There sometimes will be a few smaller cattle that they have failed to cut ont of the drove; they aim to cut tlteitt
out, but someti~nes the~- are difilcult to separate.
(~.in delivering beef at iled Cloud agency, have you generally bee-i
persoiialiy present when you have delivered it
~. Yes, sir; sotnetiines I am i~ot. but as a geiieral rule I have 5t)Cilt
about eight or nine iiionths of the year here myself personally  part of
tlie tiii~e I was a}~seijt. I cannot s~ty now I`va~ preselit every time when
tlie cattle were delivered at the agency.  ~)i~r general rule is this:
have two cainl)s, ai~d we have a iiian-tlie boss-nian-iii charge of each
canll); and when the agent sends aii order for four, five, or six hundred
head of cattle, he (the boss) cuts them oft aiid takes them iii. They weigh
theni, and he takes a memorandum-receipt. I niay iiot get the receil)ts
for a couple of montlis afterward, or until such time as I itiay not be at
the agency.
(~.Do you remember whether last fall, and iii N~~vember aiid Dece~nher, the cattle you delivered there were or were iiot weighed when they
were received ~
A. All the cattle we have delivered at the P~ed Cloud ageliQy have
been weighed. There are two corrals at Iled Cloud agency, aiid die
scales are between the two corrals.  Sometimes at the windiiig up of
the weighing of them there are some wild steers which cannot be got
on the scales, but they would not exceed fifteen or twenty; theii those
are averaged, and they are generally the largest cattle.
(`~. Do you remember anything of a time wheii there were only seven
head of cattle at Red Cloud agency 1
A. Yes, sir: I cannot tell the number, but I remenber the time that
tliei-e was a small l~unch of cattle there.
(~.~\`liat kind of cattle were thev?
~. I~oor cattle, and such cattle as Dr. Saville rejected and never recei'.~ted to nie for.  I was in the East, aiid I returiied some tinie iii Decemher-I thitik it was the latter part of Deceitiber-aiid there were
cattle unreceilited for for some time back, aii~l Dr. ~aville told nie that
there liad been a lot of cattle received in Noveiiiber that he thought he
would have to reject, and it strikes me it was fifteci head. that lie just
~truck oft' the average and did not receilit for.  1 had tlie pi-ivilege of
takitig them out of the herd, but they were killed by the Iiidiaiis, so thit
I nev~r got them out, and ii ever g~)t aiiy ~)`i~ for the iii.
Q. I ~uppose cittie in that seetioli`of tlie coulitry get fit during the
suiiimer aiiil fall
A. Yes, sir; the cattle are usually in very go~}d order iii tlie fill.
(~.Do they contillue iii o'ood order far iii to tlie ~-iiiter ~
A. ~1y exlicrielice iii this coillitry has beeii this: That cattle will iinprove iiiitil about the fir~t of I)ecem}ier; tlieii they hold tlieir~~wii through
the month of I)eceiiiber and part of Jaiiuary, aiiil ii~ a rule froiii JilluirN'
to Febru;iry aiiil ~iarcli they will shi'iiik a littl'~.  There is a Stoel As~ociation iii tlie, Stite of Ne~ir,'i ska, aji(1 they ~~ le~'t iilsl)cctors to ilispect
all herd~ ~i~I~~Iii tliri~u~li their distri~-t, for the ~iiirpose (if ~ee1ng " lietliei
tliei-e ire aiiy raiiell cattle a i )ii  tli~in, that is, cattle ow iieit liy iiieii
having rai~~'lies iii their district, aiiil`vJii(li - iiiiglit have gone iiit(i tl~e
herd.  Ihe bnsiiii's of tho -`c iiisIiec~(ii~ i~ ti) iii-.4)i(~t every bent ~)`Issiiig
thron li, to see tli-it there nie ii~ c~ittlc ili- veii ifl' i~~iieil by l~" iti 5 i-ais 
16(3
~~~ or owning cattle ill the distnct; they are familiar with all the
~rands.
Q. Do you know wlio are those inspectors?
A. I was going to give you the name~of one in (Jheyenne C~~t~nty, ill
~hich Sidney is located-G~. ~Ic(?arty.
Q. Where does he live?
A. lie is a stock-raiser.
(~.Does he reside at Sidiiey?
A. Yes, sir. The oiie in the district east of his is T.;\I. Lawrence. I
tnink his district is east of ~Ic~~arty's.
Q. Do you remember in the fore part of November, 1S74, of their being
a failure to supply tl~e necessary quantity of beef at 0~ed (floud agency".
A. Well, we had a pleiity of beef in the viciiiity, but it was at a time
wben Dr. Saville was tryi!ig to count the Indians, aiid lie did not want
to issue until he had got the count. lie was notified by tlie Departn~ent
iiot to issue them anything uiitil he liad 0-ot a count oli them. It h:id
been alleged tli;it lie was issuilig to more Indiaiis than lie lia~i at tlie
agency. lie ha~1 got a count on them once before, aii~l lie thought it
was imperfret, and he asked the Department to instruct him not to issue
any more until he could get a correct count on them. I was at the
agency at the tinie, and of course lie told us not to briiig the beef in unfil
the Indians would submit to this couiit. They liel(l oiit lbr some time
bnt finally they submitted  aiid I always understood that he made up
what was due them up to that tinie. I tliiiik it was on the 14th day of
N~ven~bcr that we brought iii the beef, but there should have been aii
issue on the Sth, and, as I understood, he made that up to them by giving them more at that tinie.
t?. I spoke of seveii head of cattle, ~)ecause of tlic fl Ct that it is stated
by Protessor ~Iarslt that there were at tlie i~cd (Cloud`i~C1iC~ some
seven head of cattle that were in a puny condition a'iid nuder size.
A. I didn~t see those cattle, but it ulay be all correct: I doii~t dispute
Professor ~Iarsh's stateiiieiit at all. It is liable to be ti~ne and I haven't
the least doubt in tlie world but that it is corre&t; but if it is, they were
the remnant of cattle that had been delivered. Tlie cattle were ill a fair
condition when we delivered them.
Q. There were, I understand you, in that lot some cattle that the
Doctor rejected?
A. Yes sir; it strikes me that the number was fifteen. I won't be
positive, but it was not less than ten. I know lie wanted to strike oft
fifteen, and I thought lie was a little hard on me, and I asked hiin if ten
would not make him whole, an~l I am not certain whether he took oft
fifteen or ten; but I ainied to do what was right, an~l he coiitended for
flftee~.
(~.~~ou say tli'-it in purc~iasi1ig cattle you ~et some that are not siiital~le to be supplied, b~it the ~lealers eanitot cut them out of tlie herds.
~~hat becomes of those
A. We geiierally kill tlieiii for camp purposes, and if a baii~l of In~lians coiiies along we h;ive to give them something, and we aim to give
them some of those.  They always want something, aiid they woii~t be
satisfied with aiiytliing l~ut thc beef " standin~ on four legs, as the (4reat
Spirit sciit it.  Seveial times when I ~nyself have l)eeii iii caiiip, while
traveling, attendiiig to this business of fliriiishing cattle to tlie agency,
I have had Indians come to the camp and want' somethin to eat. I had
three quarters of a good beef, and when I would offer tlieiii a quarter
they-    not take it; they must have one they could l~ill themselves.
They have a prejudice agailist any that is already killed; they want it, 
167
as they say, "standing 011 four legs, as the Great Spirit sent it." If a
beef could have two hides, it would be more satisfactory to them; they
would rather have noore hide an~l less beef.
Q. Do you know whether th~re is any person interested with James
N\~. Bosler in filling this contract for Paxton?
A. All I know positively is that I am here to represent him.
Q. You doii't know of aiiybody else having any interest in the matter
except he and Paxtoii?
A. I doii't know. I believe there are other parties who have an interest with them. but I kiiow nothiiig it all about it.
~~. Y&~u (l01i~t kiiow wlio they are
A. No, sir.
Py ~[r. FAVLkNFR:
(?.~lr. ~osler, can you state tlie ii ii Jii1)er ~~ cattle ~`~liith you delivered
Lt the i~ed Cloud aOencv oil the 14th Noveniber, I~74
A. If my me110i}ry serves iooe right, I think it was OI head. I can tell
exactly by refereiice to lily books.
Q. There had beei~ no delivery of cattle, then, from tlie 1st of Noveu~
ber to the 14th ~
A. I am iiot able to aiiswer that questioii.
By Mr. RAPRIS:
Q. have you your book here?
A. Yes sir; I have a rough memorandum ill this pocket. book. The
other book I left at the ageilcy.
Q. I see that this Mr. Foreman calls liiiiiself "of Omaha " do you
know where lie was living at the time the bid was put iii?
A. In 1)eionsylvaiiia, sir.
Q. ~Vhat is his busii~ess?
A. lie is a stock-shipper.
(~.is he engaged in dealing in stock now
A. Yes, sir.
Q. N\~here?
A. In Peiinsylvaiiia.
Q. In I)eiinsylvania ioow
A. I thiiik so, sir.
Q. lias he now any interest in this contract
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know what consideration was paid him for the assignment
of it~
A. I don't know that there was any consideration paid.
Q. Do you know whether he went to New York at the time the bid
was niade
A. I thiilk he was in New York; but don't know.
Q. ~Vere you there ~
A. I was there, but I took very ]ittle part, sir.
Q. Then you know whether he was there f.
A. No, sir; 1 do not.
Q. ~Vho else of your fa~ily was there-was James ~Y. there
A. Yes, sir.
Q`\~as Joseph there
A. No, sir.
Q ~Vhat is Joseph's bnsiio~ss?
A. lie is a fanner.
Q. Does he live in that pla~e?  (Carlisle, PI.)
A. Yes, sir. 
168
~? Ifas lie not been out here in the cattle business?
~. No, sir; lie lived in Sioux City ii~`56.
~? ~Yhat interest have you in this contract?
A. N\~ell,`fly interest is to tlie extent of about $5,000.
Q. Do you mean to say tlie whole net results of your busiues~ ~s
-~5,O00 a year?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.Is that amount the expected profit, or is it a salary
A. That is the expected profit.
(~.Then you have an interest in the contract?
A. I have no interest in the contract; the
(~.You have an interest in the profit of filling it?
A. I have an interest to that extent.
Q. You cannot receive more than tl~at?
A. No, sir.
~~. Is that depeudent upon profits derived from the filliii {)f this contract?
k Yes, sir; to a certaiii extent.
().have you any objection to stating your exact relation to this matter?
A. None at all, sir; I have no interest in the contract; none whatever,
slr.
Q. N\~hat is your relation to the filling of the contract?
A. I represent the contractor.  The fact of it is, I am really here
against`fly wishes; I didn't want to come, but I was urged to conle.  I
ii ave had some experience in the cattle business, and was askcd to take
cli ni-ge of filling thc contract.
Q. By who in?
A. By J. ~V. Bosler, my brother, and ~~Ir. Paxton and I caine reluctautly.
Q. Vpoii what terms, if you have no objection?
A. I have no ojection.  T() the exteiit of about $5,000. I was assured
that my interest would be at least about $5,000.  I will state, gentlemen, if you want to know aiiything about the bnsine~~s, I can tell you
cverythiiig about it; I can tell you what tl~e profits of the contract are,
or anything you want to know.
(? I want to know exactly how your $5,000 is to be determined.
A. I was assured that I would have at least $5,000.
~? You don~t ki~ow what l)roportion of the profits that iiiterest iswhether it is a quarter, or a teiith, or what?
A. No, sir; I was to have, at any rate, that amount, whatever they
iaade.
(? Sup~~ose they doii~t make anytliiiig on the contract.
A. 1 will get that amoulit ally how.
~? Do you say that you are to have a salary  tl~at y~)u were to be
pai~l to tlie extent of -~5,000, irrespective of tlie question of profit oil the
contract?
A. No, sir; not that exactly, either.  It was just this way: I was to
have all interest to the exteiit of $5,000 whether they made it or not.
Q. You were to have that whether or 110
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You mean to say that you had not a contingei~t interest in the
profits beyond that amount?
A. No, sir-well, I didn~t know.  I might have expected more if
they had done better.  I ha~l really 110 un(lerstanding at all when I left
honie.  I left just to take charge of tl1is business; I didn~t know that 
169
I would stay to the end of the year. I was asked to come out and
iaake the pnr~hase and loc~te the cattle, aiid at the time I left home I
did not exl)ect to stay over two months, but I staid to the end of the
year.
Q. That does not tell me yol~r relatioii to the contract.
A. I just have a certainty to the extent of $5000.
Q. It is flGt a salarv ~
A. No, sir, it is not a salary; neither is it an i'iterest in tlie contract.
Q. You say you would not have any more if they made a large amount
of money?  A. NJ, sir; except through their liberality.
Q. And, if they lost, you would have the same?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then you are a hired man, at $5,000 a year, iii ai~y event~.'
A. Not a hired man.
Q. Is there a chance outside the filliiig of tlie coiitract by which you
exl)ect to make money in this business
A. No sir.
Q. If you are to have $5,000 for the year's service, and no less if they
lose and no more if they make, what other relation have you than as a
hired man?
A. ~`ell, I am not exactly hired at a fixed salary.
Q. Is there any way that you may make more or less than that
amount?
A. None, unless they should choose to give it to me.
Q. Then there is a sort of a private mutual nuderstanding between
you that if they make a large amount of money out of the contract you
will have more?
A. Only unless they wish to give it to me.
Q. There is a remote po~sibility that they may be liberal euough to
lo it~
A. If they choose to give me any more. I consider my services worth
not less that $5,000; I would not stay in this part of the country for
0ess than $5,000.
Q. You say it is not a fact that you are a hired man at $5,000 a year?
A. No, sir; I don't say~I am hired at $5,000 a year, hut I was assured
that I would get $5,000 a year.
Q. At least?
A. Five thousand dollars a year.
Q. No more.
A. ~Yell, no; I don't know; I was just assured that I would get not
less than $5~0oo a year.
Q. Did you ever see ~Ir. Paxton? -
A. ~es, sir; I know him very well.
Q. N\~hat did he tell you?
A. lie understood it the same way.
Q. In the filling of this contract is there any other way in which you
expect to make a profit other th~tn receivinc~.~
A. No, sir.                         5,000 a year as salary'?
Q. Do you nbw say, upon the whole, that you have no interest in this
contract?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Yo~ are not a signer of tlie contract, either as bondsman or wit
ness?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know that ~fr. Paxton Aas at this ~noii~eiit any iiiterest in
the contract 
170
A. Yes, sir.
~~. Is not the whole thing your brother's'.
j~. No, sir.
~~. liad Mr. Foreman any idea of filling the contract, so fi~ as you
kn~ w, when he took it?
~~. I don~t know.
~. Do you believe he had?
A. I don't know that, sir.
Q. llave you any reason to suppose he did?
A. I know no reasoii why he would not.  lIe is a man of prol)erty.
Q. You did not make a bid
A. No, sir.
~? Your brother James did?
A. J. ~\ did.
(?.Do you kiiow whether ~Ir. lIerman-whether either of the lIermans
did?
A. Not to my knowledge sir.
(~.Now, can you state the names of the men 011 Platte River from
whom you buy cattle
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Please state them.
A. ~eth Mabry, George ~~. Littlefield, James F. Ellison, and I bought
a herd last year from N\~illiam M. fli~rst, and I bought one herd from
J). R. Fant and one frorn George Sheidley & Bro. That is the firm,
but George generally signs his own name alone.
(? ~Vliere are these men located?
A. They are Texas men.
~t~ They bring their herds up on Platte P~iver and sell them there ~.
A. Yes sir. I bought oiie herd from General Perry, of OmahaAdams, P~eddington & Co., I believe, is the firm; Mn i~eddington is the
party who has cl~arge of the ranch.
Q. Are those the names of all you can remember on Platte River ~.
A. I bought a small bunch this spring from Irwin & Lawrence-a
bunch of 24t head.
Q. You buy some cattle in Ellsworth, Kansas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you go there to buy them?
A. Yes, sir.
(? ~Vho do you buy of there?
A. These same men, sir.  Ellswortb is the place they have been driven
to until last year and this year, when nearly all of them have been
driven to Platte River.  Lllsworth is a cattle-point on the Kansas Pacific Railroad.
Q. Are you supplying beef to any other agency than Red Cloud ~
A. Only tl~ese two agencies-Red Clou~l and ~Yhetstone, (now known
as Spotted Tail.)  i~Ir. Paxton has been filling the balance of the contract himself, personally.
Q. ~Vhere is your brother, J. N\~.?
A. lIe is in Carlisle, Pa.
(~.Is he engaged in flllin~ any eo'~tract this year?
A. lIe has ii ever been here at all. Joseph has never been here.
(~.Never has supplied any of these agencies?
A. No, sir.
`?. Didn~t you supply cattle which ~~ilder flirnished ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was in 1S73 and`74? 
171
k Yes, sir.
Q.Row were you interested with ~~ilder?
A.In the sanie way.
Q.N\%re Joseph or J. V. also interested in the same way'.
A.J. ~~. was.
Q.At that tilne did J. V. bid for furiiisliing cattle?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.And ~~ider was a bidder
A.~e~, sir.
Q.They became partners after Vil~ler got his contrict
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Vere they partners before
A.No, sir.
Q.Do yoii kiiow by what ~~ri~gCn1C1~t they became partners after.
ward?
A.It w:is meiely a bnsii~ess ~irr~n~eI1ic!)t.  ~[r Vil~ler proposed to
`I. V. f~r lii~n to take aii iiiterest iii tlie c()i)tra~~t ai~~l liii it.
Q.J\lr. ~\~i1~ler liiiiiself (li(1 nothing about tilling it?
A.I doii~t kiiow  I did tlie work here.
(? You don~t know that Vilder did anything about filling that contract?
A.No, sir.
(~. You kiio'v von filled it ~
A.I kiio'v I filled it for these two u~enci~s.
(~. N()'v, do yoit say that contract ~~as not reilly yours?
A.No, sir; it was not.
Q.Did you furnish any money?
Y Not i ceiit.
(). 1)id J. V. furiiish any money?
A.Yes sir; lie did.
(? You say you ii ave flirnished no iiioiiey 01) this contract ~
A.Not a cent.
Q.I)o you know that J. V. has?
A.I know he has.
Q.So you receive all the money from tlie partners aid put it in catfle,~so f~r as these two agencies are concerned?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.`vhere do you get the money?
A.Each one pays in his share of the money;
Q.Do you know how much money they paid in on this contract q
A.No, sir.
Q.Do you know how mnch you had to draw against?
A.I could tell you at the agelicy.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q.About what is the aggregate capital invested in furnishing these
two agencies?
A.~~ell, I bought last year for these two agencies about eighteen
thousand bead of cattle; I had them on the Pl'ttte at one time for about
the space 0~ two months; it takes about eighteen thousand head.
Q.That t~kes considerable monev?
A.It takt 5 very near half a n~iilion of dollars, paid down at one time.
They are all bought aiid placed in the fall mouths; there are always
enough plae~~d there to fill the contr;ict.
Q.Aii(1 b~ft~re you deliver them to tlie agent you hold then at your
own risk?
A.Yes, sir. 
172
~?  ~i~d yon gc nerilly ~uy a ~ hole herd?
~.Y&~s, sir.
(~. Just as thQY have bi~eu &0riven up from Texas
~.No; we buy four-y ar-ol~is and upward  we cut out 5ou~e; they
are the cheapest cattle per pound.  ~ lower grade of cattle cost more
than we can get for theiu. N\~e pQV about 2 cents a i)ound, and you
cannot buy any of the lower grades for less than 2.~ ceiits a pound.  I
bought tlie best cattle at S f.S() a hun~1red.weight.  ThIy purchases last
year went from ~1.SO per liulidred~weight to 2 cents per 1)oitnd.  The
smaller-size cattle cost more p~~r pound.  For instance, tale`t yearling:
~ yearling will cost 5.7.50, an~l it takes a very good yearliiig to weigh
:300 poun~ls; that is over 2 cents a pouiid. Yon would pay $12 for a
two-year-old, and it would weigh about 500 poun (I 5.  Now we get up to
tlie foui-year-olds.  The In~lians themselves prefer a good cow to any
other kiiid; and if we can get a good grade of cow we always buy it.
We could buy a good cow, that would weigh from 800 to 950 pounds, for
about $12; that is, a good Texas cow.  Thousand-poutid beeves geit.
erally bring from $ 18 to $20. Then in getting a lot of beeves we sonictimes get many that weigh 1,000 or 1,200; some would go less.
Q.You don't weigh any cattle that you biiv?
A.~~ell, no, sir; we buy the in by their age.
Q.So you give *7 for a yearling, $12 for a two-year-old, about *16
for a three-year-old?
~.The grades usually run from four to seveii.
Q.Then you get up from three to seven, and from $18 to $20 a head?
A.Yes; so it is to the interest of the contractor to buy the higher
grade of cattle; you get more beef for the money.
L~y Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.Why, then, do they bring on these young C('~ttlC to the. Platte i~iver
for sale?
A.They reason this way: that it lias a quieting effect upon their
large cattle to bring a few of the smaller grade with them. It has the
same effect as between a mother and a f~iInily of children. If you put a
few young ones along with the old cattle they become more contented,
and they are more easily driven. And, then, there are some persons
wlio want to sell their young 5tO(-k-.
~)y ~Ir. llARRI5:
(? Can you exi~lain to me how there is a profit iii an Indian contract'?
A.Yes, sir.  A beef weighing a thousand pounds would eost $18; it
costs about a dollar ~ head for holding cattle; that would`iiake it cost
$19, and that would leave a profit of from d'~O to 40 celits on one hundred pounds; aiid iii a contract for thirty millions of t)ounds it would
~ive a profit of 5-90,000, at 50 cents on the one hundred pounds, and of
$120~0U0 at 40 cents oti the one hundred pounds.  The profit on a cow
which costs $11, and which would weigh nine hundred pounds, would
l~e 80 cents on the one hundred pounds, and I would just as soon put
my money in stock- of this kind as to put it in a bank.  They are always
salable-a cash article-and iii this country the percentage of loss is
very light.
Q.J~ow many cattle (.lid you`have during the winter?
A.~Ve stai~ted iii Deceniber; I thiiik we had in the neiglil~orliooii of
five thousand or six thousaii&i head about the 1st of January, but we
i-un out of cattle; we had no iiiore than filled the Foreinaii coiiti-act.  I
~as at the ageiley last sprilig, aiid tlie Iiidiaiis were re~illy sufl'ering; 
17o~
we had filled over the contract and everything was eaten out of the
corn missary.
Q. You charged how n~uch for tl~e additioiial amon~it iii filling the
contract
A. Three cents a pound.
Q. What stock did you then have on haii~I
A. We had consun~ed all our stock; we had to ~o npoii tlie market
and buy wintered cattle, which cost us about 24 CCi)t5 a pound.  We
made just about a half a cent a pouiid on those wiiitered cattle.
Q. You were under Obligitions to sup~~ly 25 ~)er cent. in addition?
A. As I understand it, the terms of the contract were, that ~Ir.
Paxton was to receive notice, if that 25 per cent. would be required, iii
time to get these cattle in the viciiiity of tlie agency.
Q. The clause in the contract with Foreman is this: "The party of
the first part, however, reserves the ri~lit to require a greater or less
quantity, not exceeding 25 per cent. in either ease, of any of the articles,
than that speeified in said sehedule, at the price or prices therein stated,
of which ilicrease or decrease in the quantity required a reasonable
notice should be given to the party of the second part."  Now, do you
know when you got notice, nuder your contract, that the Department
would require an addition under that 25-per-cent. clause?
A. I never got any such notice.
Q. When you were called npou to furnish the cattle, that would be
notice ~
A. In the fallofthe year I brought Ul) cattle, and brought up a su~~lus,
and I turned all those in, and the agent wanted more cattle.  I told him
I would fill my contract.
Q. When was that?
A. Along about the latter part of March. lie had nothing else in the
commissary, and he applied to the Department for something to feed
his Indians. They said they would rather have beef than anything else.
Q. So that when they called for these the contract was itumediately
entered into?
A. No; it was some time after, sir.
Q. That was the first notice you had
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You said that at one time you had some ~ioor cattle-about fifteen
head, you thought?
A. The cattle that Professor Marsh probably refers to liad been delivered at the agency and received by Dr. Saville, but not receipted for.
Wheji I came aloiig in December-the latter part of December or the
first of January-the doctor told me that there were ten or fifteen head
of cattle that he would have to reject, and lie deducted them from th(
amount and receipted to toe ior the b;ilance of the cattle that had bee it
delivei~ed ~I) to that time.
Q. Now, did he turit out to you', or attempt to turi~ out to you, the
rej~ct~d ca~tle
A. No, sir: I wonld rather have lost the cattle than have dnven tlieiii
back. l)ecause oiir herd was eighty miles ofi.
Q. So you just kno~k~d them off the bill
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it within your knowledge, ()~ were yoii iiot iiif~ rii~cd, that the
cattle ha~l l)(~eii fed to tlic Indians
A. 1 didii~t kn~~'v and I was not so inforu~e~l.
~?. Ilow many times duriiig tbc last ye-ir "etc yoli y~ursclf present
when cittle were turiied i~ver to the ageli(-y 
174
~. I C~I1ll()t mention the iinn~ber of times.
Q. ~Vh(it i)erson hid yoj there antliorized to ~ee to the weigiiiiig in
your heh('iJf?
A. Now, I h('iVC either th{ foreniaji of the herd or iiiy brother who is
there ~o1i~etiiiie~.
(i~. ~Vhat is his iiiitne?
A. George.
`?. Does he work for you ~
A. Ye~, sir.
(~.Ijas he any interest in the contract?
A. No sir.
(~.Younger than yourself ~
& Yes, sir.
~)y Mr. FAULKNFp~:
Q. I snppo~e it is aii admitted fict that all the cattle fnrnished were
furnished iii the name of ~Villiain A. Paxton?
k Yes, sir.
Q. Aild 110 other cattle were furnished except those that were furnished by NYilliaiij A. Paxton ~
A. No, sir.  I ellim thd't I filled this contract honestly, and I can
establish that fact. ~Iy bnsiness reputation is at 5t('ikC, ai~d I will be
gla~l to give yon any infoi'matiou ill my power.  I ain satisfied that I
will be ~et ri~ht by sifting this thing down to the bottom.  I read Professor ~1arsh~s statement, an~l also Lieutenai~t (?ari)enter's statement, in
reg;~rd to the yearliiigs that were delivered on the 14th day of J\Jay,
1875.  On tlie 10th day of May I received part of a herd of cattle from
General Perry, through ~~Ir. 1)~eddington, and the lot from Irwin & Lawreiiee-the`~41 licail I told you about.  My cotitract with Jaiiies i~eddiliot()i) & (?o. w;l~ for two thousand head of cattle, four years of age
and upward.  ~?hen ~Ir. P~eddington brought them down to the l)laee
of delivery, whieb was oil tiie north side of the North Platte, oj)posite
tlie agency, he had 58 yearlings II) the herd. He asked nie if I could
take them. I told lii lii I could not use them.  He aimed to cut them
ont, but failed to do so and said they might go al~~ng. I i)aid him
iiotliing for theni, and they were not couiited.  A ~ood maily Indians
roped these yearlin~s~s we caine along, and killed them before they
were delivered to the agency, but there may have l~een a few of them
thit went throu~h. These were tlie yearlings that Lieutenaiit (~arpenter saw.
J~y the CIlAIRMAN:
()). I~ieuteiiaiit C'lrJ)eiiter, in liis certificate about the beefeattle which
he saw is~ued to tlie In~li;iii~ at I~ed ~`lou~! agency, on or about the 13th
~l;iy of ~1ay 1~75, s;iys` There were many year!iiigs iii tlie herd,
which would not iict ~0() l)0u ii (15 of beef, aiid to tlie best of my knowledge aiid l)elief tile eli tire hen! wolil(l not aver'tge 750 pounds gross
wei~~ht   ~~~1~at do von sav to that ~
A. In regard to the`vei~ht, 1 hive ~Ir. I~eddingtoii's affidavit, which
I will hanil to you at the agelley ~1iowiiig what lie e'stiinatei! tiie
weight of them to l~e wlieii he tiiriied them over  aiid also the receipt
of tlie agelit a~ to ".h('it they (lId w~~igh.  I I)(l~(l iiotliiiig tY~r tlie yearling~ aiid I re~icive~l li()tlliii~ for tllelil; but I (I()1l~t kiiow hilt thit 1`viS
entitled to I~('i~ ft~r tl~ein: they were goi~d beef and were eaten l~y the
Indians. 
175
By Mr. FAULKNER:
(?- Then the Indians see~ to be tW~~~ that they are iiot Iegiti~nate
articles of delivery ~
k Yes, sir.
By Mr. liAPRIS:
Q.lias it ever been claimed by aiiybody that you fltil(d to fiilhll your
contract?
A.No sir.
Q.lias yonr brother J. NN~.?
A.Not to my kiiowledge.
LED CLOUD A(;EN~Y, NEPRAsNA,
F~'i~1~y, tug~~.~t 13, 187~.
Pre~ent:lion. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman, Prof. CTEORGE`~~.
ATIlERTON, lion. B. ~~. lIARRIS, and lion. CHARLES J. FAULKNER.
JOHN liERMAN BOSLER recalled.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Question. I want to call your attention to I)age L~5 of I~rofessor
~tarsh's statement, in which he says that the cattle ~r the liei(l delivered
on the 14th of November were so wretchedly poor that eve ii tlie contractor, Mr. Bosler, deemed it necessary to apologize for the in, stating
that he had been obliged to overdrive them, &c.  Di(l you ii~ake that
statement, or one similar to that, to Professor ~1arsli iii regard to the
quality or condition of those cattle?'
Answer. No, sir  I did not.
Q.Did yon have any coiiversation with hiin whatever about the
cattle ~
A.No, sir.
Q.~)id you see Professor Marsh at that time ~
A.No, sir; I was not at the agency 011 that day.  I can't exactly say
where I was at that time.  I was somewhere between Ch~venne aiid the
agency.  I came here shortly after the delivery of tlie cattl~~, and after
Professor Marsh returned from the bone fields, a iid about the time he
left for the East.  I never saw the Profrssor.
Q.~Vas yonr brother here at that time?
A.~Lv brother George was h~re with a delivery of tlie cattle.  lie is
now with the herd.  You will fiud him there this eveniiJg.  J. \V. b)o~ler
was never at the agency.
B~ the CHAIRMAN:
Q.~hat books do you keep of your purchases of cattle~
A.I keep just a itieiiioraiiduin.  I cait't give you defiiiite ii~formation
from it. J N~~. Bo.~ler keel)s;i I)erfect accouiit.  I scud lii iii tlie receil)ts.
lie keep~ a reoiil;tr set of books, sho~viug the t)iisiiiess tr'Iii5aCtiOll5.
{~Ir. J. \~~. Bosler here showed to tlie cominissiojiers a co!itr;i(t eiitered
into betweeii tlie Couimissioiier of Iijdian Afftirs aiid J. ~V. Bosler,
(lated May >7, 1575, f~>r the deliveiy of 5t)0,00~ p0HI~(l5 of beef, gross
Weight, to {)C ~lelivered at Fort I)ei'thold agelIcy, i);ikotu, at ~->.95 l)CP
lIulidred 1)011 ids.  J. \~? Bosler`v('L5 also colitractor lor beefit the sain~
I)la(~e f~r tlie year 1574, aiid tlie (~IIl\' I)l'lce where lie was tlie lowest l)idder.i  Iii tlie FOrelilili coiiti'act tlie schedule is reieired to, ai~~l by the
schedule it;il)I)ears tli;it tlie beet. w%s to uvera~
~e 550 I)ouilds from Julv
I, 1574, to J;iiiuary, 1575; and 1,0()~ pounds irom Jaunai'y 1, 1575, to 
176
July 1. 1S75. Now, let iiie explain what the arraii~ernent was with tlie
1~~d~(~11 I~tl)artrnent.  The av~rage for the eiitire year was 925 pounds,
ai~~l this was tak~ii as the i~asis ot settlement.  This average was arrived
at by adding the two different prices together and divi~liiig it by
tN\0, giving the contractor tiie benefit of overweights iii tlie iir~t six
m'~ntlis.
CllEY~NNE, N\~. T., ~%d~~csdqy, t?y(llSt 25, 1875.
Present: 110!). TiloMAs C. FLETcllL'R, chairmaii, lIon. TI~foTllY 0.
ll()WL, lion. (?llARLEs J. FAULKNER, II on. B. ~~. llAEP1s, and Professor GEORGE ~~. ATHERToN.
JOllN llER~rAN BOsLER recalled.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. ~Ir. Bosler, will you state at what time and in what quantity
you delivered beef at Spotted Tail agency in the months of January,
February, and Maich last ~
Answer. I delivered on the 5th day of January, 1875, 447 head of cattie. weighing 433,590 pounds, and on the 16th day of February 1 delivered
802 head, weighing 844,800 pounds; this was a lot that I accompanied
~Ir. Yates with to the agency to get a receipt for.  lle met the herders
on this side of the agency, and the Indians were killing the cattle as we
passed by the corral. The cattle had been issued and the Indians were
killing them. On the 6th day of March I delivered 575 head, weighing
595,800 pounds; and on the 5th of April, 558 head, weighing 550,476
pounds. Now I want to state in connection with this delivery of the
1~~th of February, 1 was about ten days bebind time in getti~~g them
there owing to the severity of the weather.  I was ordered by the agent
to have them there in the early part of February. 1 sent a messenger
to the camp; my herder started with them; they encountered a snowstorm, and were from ten to twelve days behind when we got to the
agency.  On the 16th Major lioward made the issue of tl~e ten and twenty
on the same day out of the corral, as I understand it.  I was present
aiid came there the very day of the issue.
By ~Ir. liARRIS:
(? liow severe was the s~ason; describe the severity of the seasoii?
Y The thermometer was really 400 below zero, and tlie n~ercury in
the thermometer was frozen.
Q.~~hat was the effect upon the cattle and the meii diivii~g them iii
such weather?
A.~ever~'il of tlie nien came in with their feet frozei~  tlie cattle woul~l
stat~d it better than the men.
Q.~Vere you out with them?
~.I was not with the her~ler~.  I was at i~d Cloud agen(~y, aiid weiit
~lown with Mr. Yates to Spotted Tail, ex~)ecting to be there by t[ie tlme
ti~e cattle would reach there.  ~Vhen I arrive~l there tlie cattle lia~l beeii
all turne~l over, and a I)ortion of theni wis being issued to the Indiaiis.
(? ~~as that the time you were frozen yourself?
A.I wa  frozen in the e'irly part of January. 1 ~~~s it I~~tl Cloud
agency i{ii{ler treatment at that time it was ii)y first tii1) )iit ifler ii)y
freeze.  I welit dowii with ~[r. Yates iii a buggy, aii~l liltI lily 11(111(15
wrappeil uj~. I met iny herders on this side of the agelify.;iii~l thi~v tol(l
ii0e the Indians had killed five lieail of ~attle this ~ide ot tlie ~`~)rial
which tlie agent lia~l refused to receipt for. 
177
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.How often were you to deliver cattle there ~
A.We should have delivered once a month during the winter.
Q.flow many issues to the Indians did you understand that to cover?
A.Three issues; they issued on the 1st, 10th, and the 20th.  I was to
have had cattle there in the early part of February, ai~d I think they
missed the issue of the 1st and the issue of the 10th. 1 got there be.
tween the 10th and the 20th; the cattle got there on the 16th of February.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.Mr. Bosler, did I understand you to say that you had cattle delivered there that would ha~'e sup!)lied the issues during the entire
month of January?
A.When we delivered the cattle, on the 5th of January, it was supposed that the number then delivered would last through the month of
Jan nary
Q.And would last them to the issue of the 1st of February?
A.Ye~, sir.  Some time after that I received a note from the agent
a8~ng me to have cattle there the early part of February.
Q.Do you remember what time you received that note?
A.It was the early part of February, perhaps between the 1st and
5th  1 sent a messenger.with it to camp, and directed the boys to start
immediately to Whetstone agency with the cattle.
By Mr. HARRIS:
~ Where were the cattle?
A.On the Platte River.  I had exhausted our herd on Running
Watc~r by this time.
~ That is about eighty miles from the camp?
~ That is a point about seventy-five miles from Whetstone.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.What was the necessity of sending a special note, or si)ecial meseenger, when you were expected to deliver them in the early part of
February in any case?
A.We always awaited an order from the agent; we iiever deliver
unl~s they give us an order.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.When should those cattle you speak of have reached Spotted Tail
agency, in all probability, were it not for the storm you refrr to?
A.They would have come over in three days and three nights.  In
the winter.time we usually start from our herd~camp in the evening
and drive until near daylight; the boys lie down and rest, turn their
ponies out to grass, and let the cattle graze until 9 or 10 o'clock; then
they drive' again, of course stopping to go into C'i~~ aiid have their
tneals, but continue driving until they get into the agency, restilig the
cattle to graze and water, aiid resting tlie horses.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.Driving night and day with intervals of rest?
A.Yes, sir; we could not turn t[iem loos"- th
turned them loose.,  ey would scitter if we
By Mr. FA~L~NER:
Q.I understand -you, then, there was bnt one issue-day; th('jt this
storm prevented you haviiig cattle there to ~e iss'~cd on the 10th?
12 1 F 
178
A. Yc~, sir; they got there on the 16th, and were issue~ the s~~C day
th;tt we delivered them to the agency.
By Mr. llARRiS:
Q Then, Mn Bosler, if the statement were m'~~le that no cattle were
delivered by yoii for about forty-five days, it would be pretty nearly correct, would it uot~
A. There were none delivered between the 5th of January and the
1Gth of February.
Q. It would be fody-two days instead of fortv-five?
A. That is correct.
Q. So that if the statement were made that there were ijo cattle delivered in forty-two days, as applied to you, it would be correct?
A. That is exactly the time I delivered the cattle.
Q. But you do not know how many issues of cattle were n~ade to the
Indians in Jinuary ~
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know whether there were any issues?
A N\~hen I got there with these cattle, on the 5th of Jan nary, the
issue of the first had already been made, but of these 447 head, the first
issue out of them would be made on the 10th, as I understand.
Q. Do you know when you arrived at the agency, February 16th,
whether there was a want of other supplies sufficient for the requirements of the Indians at the agency?
A. I heard nothing of it.
Q. Did you learn that Indians had suffered for food, aiid were really
starving?
A. I did not hear it.
Q. It has been stated that wagon-trains were sent out in December to
Fort Randall to bring in supplies for that agency, which did not return,
by reason of the inclemency of the weather, until April. Did you know
that at the time?
A. There was a letter from one of the freighters stating that they
were si)ow-bouitd on this side of old Whetstone agency.
Q. Did you know, at any time during that winter, that they were short
of rations at Spotted Tail agency?
A. They had supplies in the commissary at that time; my impression
is that they did not run out of supplies at the commissary until the
latter part of March.
Q. Do you know whether they had to reduce the amount of issues
during that period, or not?
A. I do not, indeed, sir.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. I w~~uld like to ask you whether, at any time, you delivered any
cattle to Doctor Irwin, of the Shoshone agency?
A. I delivered, I think, 253 head in October.
Q. ~Vere those cattle taken from your herds on the Platte?
A. They were.
Q. lla~l you the contract?
A. No, sir. I delivered them through General Dodge.
Q. Had he the contract?
A. He had the contract.
Q. Did you understand he was short of cattle to fill that contract
with?
A. No, sir; be was not short. I had the cattle here, and he asked
me to deliver the whole amount of cattle for the agency for the entire 
179
year. They were all received at one delivery that was the requirement
of the coiitract.
Q. Did you attend to it yourself?
A. I got tlie cat~le out of the herd; we just cut tie bunch out of our
herd.  I thiiik we cut off about 370 head, if iu~ recollectioii serves ine
right, and we reached the agency with 353.
Q. Did you, yourself, go there?
A. No, sir; I sent them up in charge of ~fr. Robert Porter, one of our
boss herders.
Q. N\~ere they received at the ageiicy?
A. Mr. Porter took theni up (I do not know Dr. Ii'~~ii~) and he reported
to Dr. Irwin with this henl of cattle for (reneral Dodge's contract.  Dr.
Irwin came out; they had 1)0 Fairbanks scales up, and the Doctor proposed that lie would pick out one head that he supposed to be an average; Mr. Porter, who represented me, was to pick out one which he supposed to be an average; the butcher belongiiig to the agency was to pick
out a third, which he siipposed to be an average; and another party-I
tliipk it was the agency herder-was to pick out a fourth, which he sup.
posed to be an average.  Those four were skinned and the net beef
~oubled.  I think they weighed about 990 pounds gross, and be gave the
herders the receipt for that average.
Q. ~Vere any cattle rejected from the herd that were driven up, to
your knowledge?
A. Not olie.
Q. Have you ever heard the statement made that a l)ortioii of that
herd was rejected, or the whole of it, by Dr. Irwii~ that he refused to
receive them?
A. I never heanl until this morning.       -
Q. Mr. Bosler, at any time did you write a receipt for cattle for Dr.
Saville~to sigh?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~Vill you state the circumstances atteudi'ig it, fully?
A. Last October a year-I think it was October, 1873; it was shortly
before ~Valker went to the agency-I delivered Dr. Saville, at Red Cloud
agency, a certain amount of cattle-I think the number was betweeii
thirteen aiid fourteen hundred-that were unreceipted for at the time I
called, and ~sked for the receipts for cattle that were delivered up to that
time.  I came to the agency in the evening and told the Doctor that I
was leaviiig next moriiing, and wan ted hiin to have tlie receipts ready.
In the morning I cL lied at the office and he had written out one receipt.
I waited some time, and he came into the office, (I might just remark
here that his clerk was not there at the time he was in Sioux City,) and
he was so hurried that he flially asked me to write tlie rest of the
receipts, ~s he wrote a very bad hand.  I i)icked Lii) the pen ati d copied
two receipt~ from his origiiial receipt.
Q. How many receipts are required?
A. I get duplic;ttes-I get two, aiid he keeps ()[i~ iii the office.
Q. Now, sir, were those cattle delivered at tlie times named in the
rereipts?
A. Those catfl~ were delivered before I got the receipt for them.  On
looking at Mr. ~~alker's report I firid that the nuniber receipted for at
that time was 1,~S0, in~tead of between thirteen and fourteen hundred,
(t5 I have before stated.
Q Were you i)resent at tlie delivenrig of those sevetal lots of cattle?
A. Yes, sir; I was.
Q. Were the d~liveries actually made 
180
A.Th~y were.
~? liLve you ever?~~d i receipt for Dr. Saville, under any circuin
5t~II('(~S, ror tittiC b~tot-~ t1i~y w~re dt~Iiv~i&d?
k I icver have.
(~. t)r which were hot delivered ~
A.I never have.
~? Have you ever s(~~d to a'iybody that you made out receipts for
the agent's sigiiature ~
A.~Vell, I nay have to somebody, but I never did to ~Ir. Walker.
Q.What did you 5i~ to him ~
A.I was not Iresent at the <igency when ~Ir. Walker was there; I
met him at (Dheyeiine upon his return here; I uii derstood that he was
here, and I aimed to me~t him at the agency aiid`net liim at the depot
here, aiid asked for aii introduction to him. ~Ir. Fiench iiitroduced me
I s<"id to him that I learnedthathe ha~been to the agency; Isaid Iwas
sony I had not met hiin there; that I would have liked to have shown
what business I represented there.  lie told me that he liad been present at the delivery of 418 bead of cattle-I think oli the 10th of November-whicli, after being weighed, averaged 969 pounds each; that a
majority of them were a very nice lot of Texas cattle. I said to him,
"Did you go to the herd and see the balance?" lie said, "No, sir; I had
not tinie; your brother invited me and offered to take me, but I decii ned for waiit of time." I said to him that I was sorry he had not
gone; that this cattle question seemed to be a sensitive one, and I was
always glad to exhibit what we had there.  lie replied to me that he
was liot there on that business; that be was only there to look at the
management of the Indians generally, and to report to the Board of Indi~n Commissioners. I said to him, "So far as I am concerned, how did
you find niy business with the agency?" lie said, "Very well." I said
to him, if there was any informaflon he wanted that I would be glad to
give it to hita bere; he said he bad visited the herd at Whetstone
agency, and found some small cattle in the herd, but the herder told him
that they were a remnant of cattle that had accumulated there. That
was the way he explained it to ine, in his own words; that was about
the extent of the conversation we had.
Q.N\'as that statement he made conceriling the cattle at Whetstone
true?
A.It was not, as you will find ~~ the herder's testimony on that subject ii) Bishop Hire's report.
Q.~Vaiving that question, I ask again, what, if anything, was said
to you by hiiu about prepaflug receipts for Dr. Saville?
A.Not a word.
Q.Did he ask you anything about having written or copied receipts?
A.lie did not.
Q.Do you know whether he saw your brother James at that time?
A.lie did not see hijn hei~e.
Q.I want to read you his statemeiit to see if I calinot bring to your
recollectioii every conversation with ~Ir. Walker.  "~Ir. J. H. Bosler
told me in Cheyenne that he made out the receipts for the agent's signature?"
A.My reply to that part of his statement is that, so far as my making that remark to Mr. Walker, it is positively false.
Q.Did you make it to any person here?
A.Not to my knowledge.
Q.Did you ever make any statement contrary to that
have made here to-day?                            w~ich you
A.I have not. 
181
Q. Ha  you made the statement which you have made here to-day
to other icople?
A. I on't know tbat I bave; I have testified on that point before
the Bi  op Hare commission, a rel)ort of which is 011 record.
Q. Is your testimony there the same as it is here?  A. I do not know that I was asked questions on these points; iny
impression is that I was not.
Q. You do not remember stating to Mr. Walker the fact of writing
those receipts ~
A. That I positively say I never di(l.
Q Did you write niore than one receipt for the signature of Di'. Saville?
A. I wrote the two duplicate receipts for the 1st aiid the 15th of
October; I wrote them both at the same time.
Q. ~~re you questioned upon tlie subject of those receipts before the
Bishop Hare coin mission?
A. I was questioned upon th? subject of tlie receipts; I do not know
whether I was asked the question whether I wrote the in.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Do your receipts, wli~n they are made out, always show the dates
when cattle were delivered to the ageiiey?
A. No, sir; sometimes we have two or three mouths' ~lelivei'ies of
cattle unreceipted for.
Q. State your method on that poiiit.
A. ~~hen I an) absent, which is frequent, for a mouth at a time, and
perhaps two niouths, tlie agent, when lie wants cattle, sends aii order
to whoever is in charge of the camp; if my brother is there he receives
the order; frequently the boss man in charge of the camp delivers those
cattle to the agency, places them on the scale, and then gets a memorandum-receipt from the agent for them; that may perhaps be coiitinued
for two months, until I come by camp; I then lift those memoraiidumreceipts, take them to tlie ageiit, and get my regular receipts frern him.
Q. Then you get a receipt from the agent covering the gross amount
represented by these meinora nd um-receipts?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But, as I understand you, you state that that receipt does not
indicate the dates of these memonindum-receipts?
A. No, sir.  Dr. Saville in the early part of his admiiiistration would
date all his receipts on the 1st and 15th of each mouth; latterly he has
been receipting for tlie cattle on the very day they were delivered, aiid
the exact number delivere(l oli t!ie (lay.
Q So that you have ii() lono'er any use of iiieinorandiiin-receipts?
A. 0, yes, certainly; I get those receij~ts to kiiow how in any cattle
Q. What do you do with these niemoranda, after yoii hive got your
final recei1)t?
A. I destrov them.
Q. Have you any record of theiii, aiid do you record them iii any
permaneiit form in your book?
A. ~o, sir.  I just keep a memorandum of the amount in a pass book; I have no record that will show the recor'~l of these iiien~oraiiil~iiil recel pts.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. flow is it that you caii tell of the deli~'ery of a i)articul;ir iiuinber
of cattle on particular days? 
82
A.  I turn over to the herder-to the man ill charge of camp-say five
thousand head; he delivers the cattle to e~~ch agency on the orders of
the agent; the herder holds those orders uiitil I lift them; I take those
orders to the agent and get my receipts; after I have my rec~ipts for
the orders I destroy them.
By Mr. ATRERTON:
Q.  But, then, you have no record showing, for yourself, the delivenes
of cattle from time to time at each date ~
A.  No.
Q Then, if you were to refer to your books now, you have no record
to show the specific deliveries of each lot of the cattle to the agent with
the date of each?
A.  I could give you a memorandum, for instance, if you should ask
me what I delivered for the past three mouths; but I could not for a
year back ~ that is because I happen to have preserved my memorandum, but not because I have any permanent record of it.  ~Vhen I get
a voucher from the agent, I deduct from the whole number in the herd
the number for which I have got a voucher, and thus know the number
remaining in the berd; the deduction is not made upon the order~
which the herder. holds and turns over to me until I get the voucher
for the orders.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.  You state that, on the 5th of January, you delivered so many catfle; now, how do you reach the result that on those days you delivered
so many cattle; is it based upon vouchers given to you by the agent ~
A.  I get the vouchers the very day that I deliver them; they are
based upon the vouchers I have in my possession.  In my memorandum-book I make a note of the number of cattle I have on hand, and
then get the receipts and the date of them.
Q.  How could you reach the result that on such a day you delivered
so many cattle to the agent; and on such a day you delivered so many
more to the agent?
A.  At the time, Dr. Saville was in the habit of grouping the deliveries
of cattle in on one voucher embracing several memorandum-receipts, I
could, by reference to a permanent record, indicate the particular de~liveries constituting that general voucher, but ~nce that time he has been
in the habit of giving a voucher corresponding with each memorandumreceipt, showing the number of cattle on each particular delivery, and
those vouchers are all entered on my book, and I can produce the record
of them.  The memorandum-receipt taken by the herder for the cattle,
is returned by me to the agent, and for it I take a voucher in the name
of the beef contractor, and surrender the memoraiidum-receipt, and the
agent destroys it. In my testimony taken before the Bishop llare commision, I gave an accurate account of several deliveries of cattle for two
or three months, which they took from a memorandum-book I ha(l, and
showed tltem, which I have not 1)0W with me.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.  Have you had charge of all the business delivery duriiig the years
1873, 1874, and 1875?
A.  I have.
Q.  Has your brother, J. W. Bosler, had anything to do with the delivery of cattle here during that period ~
A.  He has not.  He had never been at the agencies uiitil he went
over a few weeks ago with this comn)ission, in the early pirt of August
of this year. 
183
Q. Do you know whether he has had any correspondence, couversa
tion, or communication with Agent Saville dnring that period?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Has Agent Saville received any profit fiom the cattl~-contract?
A. He has not.
Q. Has he any promise from you, or any person connected with the
delivery of cattle or with a cattle-coiitract-aiiy promise, express or ~mplied, by which he is to derive any profit, benefit, or advantage froni the
cattle-contract?
A. He has none from me, and none from any other, to iny knowledge
or belief.
Q. Has he received, at any time, any presents from you, or any of the
other persons connected with that contract ~
A. None.  I have handled all the moneys connected with this contract and with our business with these ageilcies, and he has never got
a cent from me.  I have made up the accounts by which the contracts
were settled, and there has never appeared aiiything in the accounts of
one cent paid to him.
Q. If it has not appeared in the account, has any, in fact, been given I
A. None.
Q. You mean to say, unequivocally, without reservation, that in no
way whatever has Di'. Sa~-ille received any benefit arising from the cat
tle-contract I
A. I do.
Q. And there is no promise, nnder~tandiiig, or agreement that he shall
hereafter receive aiiy?
A. I do.
Q. And this covers all contracts-past or future benefit?
A It does.
Q. I want to call your attention now to the stampede of 1873 and ask
you to state all you know about it.
A. I stated that in full in the Bishop Hare report.  I have read it
since it was published, and that statement is correct.  I was present at
the agency at the time this occurred. I assisted the agent, with my men,
in the recovery of those stampeded cattle, at his request; and those cattle were all returned to the agent, with the exception, I think, of sixty.
seven head.  In gathering those stampeded cattle over the con ii try they
were very wild, and we turned them into our herd; the agent'sboss-heuler
was with us; he took a receipt from the mai~ in charge of my herd tbr
the number turned in.  After they had scoured the coulitry over and
gathered all that they could fiiid they were the ii turiied over to the
agent, and I think he was out sixty-seven heid, if f remeii~ber correctly.
Q. You do not mean to say that you returiied to tlie ageilt precisely
the same cattle that were stamped?
A. ~`ejust cut out and returned the same number.
Q. And do you know whether any weight was taken of them?
A. No, sir; he had already receipted for those cattle.  I ret~triied him
just the number, taking them at the same weig~t that they had been
receipted tor before.
Q. Were they equal to the cattle he had receipted for
A. Yes, sir; they were ont ot' the saiiie herd.
Q. What ~vidence did Dr. Saville hold, after the cattle hid got back
to your herd, of the number which were received?
A. Dr. Sa ille had no evidence in tlie world that they were in my
tierd.  After the stampede tlie cattle were scattered all over tlie country
between Wh te River and Platte River.  Dr. Saville's herdcrs and a 
1~4
portion of my herders went out to hunt the cattle.  As thQV were fouiid,
(they were foun(I in bunches of perha1~s fiiteei~, twe')ty, thirty, or forty,
over the P~airies) they were ret[IrI)ed to u~y herd, aii~I held for them
until they ~ere all gatliere~  Tije rnan in cliar~e of jiy herd gave tlie
a recei1)t for each lot t~irned in ~l)ile tli~~ were gatheriii~
them, and t'~en I turjied o~er to tlie ageficy a i]uint)er e(lnal t() tlie
entire ~nmb~r gathered.
By ~r. ATliERTON:
Q. Did you receive any receipt or voucher fJo!j) tlie 1 gent entit]i;ig
you to payment for those that were turned ovei..~
A. No, sir.
Q You had received a v?ucl)er I)reviously
A. I had a voucher previously.
By Mr. lIARRIS:
Q. Now to tbe stampede of 1874~of liSt yeam  J)o you know about
that, and tlie return of the cattle'?
A. I think I stated that to you in my forn~~r examinatioii at the
agency.
By ~Ir. liO~:
Q. Do you know the nnu~ber of Indians fed at Spotted Tail agelicy ~
A. I do not know of my own I)ositive knowledge; about nine thousand head, I understood.
Q. The beeves you delivered on the 5th of January last weighed
433,590 l)ounds gross.  ~Vha~ would those net?
A. They would average each a gross weight of 97() pounds.
Q. I did not ask you the average gross weight of the cattle; I ask
you the net weight of the whole lot ~
A. Tlie net weight, in our way ofeomputing it, would, be 216,795 pounds.
Q. N\~ith 9,000 Indians to be fed, that would require 9,000 pounds a
(lay, and forty d~'iys' rations would amount to what ~
A. That would require 3G(),o~o pounds of beef.
Q. Between tlie 5th of January and the 16th of Pebriiarv, when you
made your 1~ext delivery of cattle, tie 9,000 Indians at' the agency
would require 360,000 pounds~,
A. Ye~, sir.
Q. They had, iii fact, only 21,6,795 pounds?
A. ~es, sir.
Q You delivered oil the 16th of February how many cattle ~
A. Light hniidred and two, weighing 844,800 pouiids.
Q. (Jut of which deliveries was it you understind the In~lians killed
five head?
A. The delivery of February 16th.
Q. You say the agelit refused to receipt for them, and never did
recei1~t for them?
A. Yes., sir.
Q. Did you get any COi1iI)ensation for those five hea~l of cattle ~
A. No, sir.
Q. ~Vere the cattle kille(l in o~~en day?
A. Yes, sir; they were killed outside of the corral.
Q. Do you know whether any requisitiou was ma~le 1)y tlie agent
on the Indians for reclitmation of those cattle?
A. I cannot teli you.
Q. YOU never heard of any?
A. No, sir. 
185
Q.You say the agent gives you two receipts. Duplicate receipts, you
mean?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.What use have you for two?
A.They are both sent to the Department.
Q.You have superintended the receipt of cattle from Mr. Mabry?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.I understand you have recently had a setflement with him for the
nun~ber received?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.How many have you received on the contract for the current year?
A.I have received 18,005 head for these two agencies-Red Cloud
and Sj}otted Tail.
Q.Row many of those were cows and how many were steers t
A.About three-quarters of them are steers, four-year ()ld and upward,
an~l about one-quarter of them are cows.
Q.Can you not give the exact number of each?
A.I can hand it to you; I can't give it to you positively here, but I
can give it to you at tlie hotel.
Q.~Vhat was the aggregate suni due ~1r. Mabry for cattle already
delivered?
A.Two hundred and twenty-five tl~ousand dollars.
Q.Precisely'.
A.Yes, ~ir.
Q.In making that aggregate sum, what was the price paid for cows,
and what was the price paid for stee~rs ~
A.Twelve dollars for cows and $20 for steers.
Cll~YENNI~, N\~. T., Frid~y, July 30, 1875.
Present:Ron. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman, lion. CHARLES J.
FAULkNER, and Hon. B. W. RARRIS.
TESTIMONY OF C. W. RINER.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. Do you reside here in Cheyenne?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Q.Row long have you lived here ~
A.About two years.
Q.What business are you engaged in?
A.Clerking for the firiu of Pease & Taylor, who keep a grocery stoic.
Q.How bug have you been at thd't business?
A.I have been at the store about twelve months now regulady;
irregularly before that.
Q.Do you know anything about some flour that was branded "Indian
Department Flour" that was seiit to your store ~
A.We have some such in the store; some that is~branded "Indian
D ~partment."
Q.Do you know where it came from?
A.It came from Mr. Atliorp.
Q.Do you know about how much you got of that flour-how iiiiny
saks of it you received?
~.We bought of him directlv fiftv sacks; then he stored perhaps
ab~~ut a hundred.  I would not be positive about the number. 
186
Q.flave you got some of it left et?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.I)o yo~t sell some of it ~
A.~)ccasionally
Q ~~hat do you get for it?
A.~e have got froni -~2.5O to ~3 a sack.
(?- A sack weighs a hundred ponuds?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.~~ell, what does all ordinary grade of other flour sell at?
A.From ~3.5O to ~5 per hundred pounds.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.~hat is a good quality of flour worth here?
A.N\e haven't any flour in the store that we can sell for less than
~3.~~.  \Ve don't keep any flour less than ~3.5t) grade.
By the CiiATRMAN:
Q.liow does that -~3.~O flour compare with this Indian flour ~
A.It is far better.
Q.For what purpose is that Indian flour bought when you sell it'
A.The most we have sold has been sold for feed for horses and cattle.
Q.Do you know anything about that flour before it came to your store ~
A.No, sir, I don't; not of my personal knowledge.
Q.Di(l you ever hear. anything about it ~
A.I know where it came from, ftom what direction, and how we happened to get it. It was flour that Mr. Martin sent here.
Q.Is the name of the mill it was made at branded on this flour ~
A.Yes, sir; I think it is.
Q.Is it put np in double sacks?
A.It is not.
Q.You say some of it is at your store?
A.Yes1 sir; Mr. Athorp has sold the most of his. lle has quite a squad
of men working for him; I doii't know what use he has made of it, but
the most of it has gone through his hands.  NVe have sold a little, but
the niost we have sold has been for feed; we could not sell it for anything else. Occasionally there is a sack that is quite good, but the
greater part of it is not.
Q.You have some of it in sacks?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Jt is not in two sacks~double sacks?
A.No, sir; single sacks. They are sacked just as we get our other
flour.
Q.Do you know whether any of that kind of flour was ever sent up
to the Indian agency or not?
A.I could not say as to that.
Q.Could you tell ns of somebody that you have reason to suppose
knows about it?
A.I suppose one of our firm would know, but he is not in t~~wn, and
probably won't be for two or three weeks- th
know anything about it.              e other one, I think, don't
By Mr. llARRiS:
Q.You understood this to be flour that had been condemned by the
in spector ~
A.Yes; I had that impression.
Q.Ilave you any impression that any flour that got into your hands
was brotight from the agency? 
187
A. I don't think this ever got to the agency.  ~Ir. Martin brought
it up here.  Mr. ~1artiu owed Mr. Athorp quite a debt, and lie took the
flour for the debt.  lle had quite a lot of flour stored in French's old
warehouse, and I think he had it in three grades, all niarked  Indian
Department Flour," and we got the best grade of it.  I don't know what
he did with the rest of i~
Q. All the flour that was there was said to be condemned?
A. I don't know that it was.  ~Ir. Athorp trades at our store, and he
and I always have been quite intimate, and I have talked about it.
Q. ll~ve you any knowledge or opinion that any flour came into your
hands which belonged to the Indian Department at any time?
A No; I didn't think that at all, except ~Ir. Athorp told me what
he did.  I had some idea then that perhaps lie (that is, Mr. Martin) had
intended this flour for the Indians, and, wheii it got here, Mr. Athorp
took the flour by law.  That is the way he got the flour into his hands,
and I believe they settled it afterward.
Q. So this particular flour never passed into the possession of the Indian Department?
A. No; lam quite sure of that.
Q. Do you know how much Atliori)'s claim was?
A. I could not say positively, but it was some five or si~ thousand
dollars.
TESTIMONY OF II. W. ~iOORE.
By tlie CllAiRMAN:
(~uestion. ~Vhere do you reside?
Answen llere at Cheyenne.
Q. ~~hat is your business?
A. I am in the freighting business.  I was (4overiiment store-keeper
here from May, 1S72, to tlie first of July, lS7~.
Q. ~rhat do you know about the reason why the flour was put up in
SS-pound sacks?
A. In a conversarion with D. J. McCann (I think it was with ~IcCann;
it might have been with I. ~V. French) he told me that the reason they
put up flour in SS-ponnd sacks was that tlie mills had run out of sacks;
that he told theta he must have some flour, and they setit out and got
some sacks which werc these sacks.
By Mr. IlARRis:
Q. Did you e~er see any flour shipped to the Iudiaiis in sacks of that
size before?
A. I never saw them shipped, I otily heard they were shipped.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q Can you give us ally infortuation about tlie cost of freighting from
here to lied Cloud agency?
A. ~Vhen I was hiring freight for ~1r. ~IcCann, I hired teamsters at
$1.50 for ~Iexicans an~l $1.7o for others, per hundred l~onlids for the
~hole distance froni Cheyeiiiie to Red Cloud ageiley  in the wititel- I
paid $2.  Since 1~73 there lias been no difticulty in hiring all tlie tri {~5portation require~l here to carry G~~veriimeiit goods at those rates.  I
could have got transportation for double the atuoutit at th~~se rates.
Q. Now, tiie question is ~~ractically whether ~I('Cllin~S agetit here Las
to go out atid hire ti'ansl)ortatiou just at tlie time it is wanted.  NVh~le 
188
you were actilig as his agent you had to go out and Lnnt Ul) wagon
t~~U5l)Ort'ltiou when you wanted it?
A. Yes, sir; but there was no (Iit~culty in gettii~g wagons; when I
wanted them I went out and got them.
Q. liow often did ~fcCaijn come here to look after i0iS business?
A. lle would come here and stay two or three weeks, aud go away
an~I be gone two or three months.
Q. ~Vhat compelisation did McCann i)ay you?
A. McCann paid me       a year as his ageilt.
Q. ~Vas that while you were receiving ~~,5()O a year as store.keeper ~.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what Mr. Bostwick is now receiving as ~fcCann's
agent?
A. I do not.
Q. Do yon know what parties are iliterested ~ ith McCann in that
coii tract?
A. I don't kiiow of anybo~~y.
(? Had he anybody illterested with him at the time you acted for
hiin?
A. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Q. Have you ally interest now with ~1cCann, or with aii~ of the coiitractors?
A. I have not.
Q. Directly or indirectly?
A. No, sir.
Q. ~Vhil~ vou were at tlie P~ed Clou~l agency what was the system
pursne~i ii) th~ distribution of sup;~lies and ali ii nity goods to the IUd~('iU5?
A. ~~ell, there is a regular roll of tlie Indians kept tliere~the iiumber of I)ersons ill the lod~es-and I would take tlie list over to the warehouse.
Q. On (listribution.days did yori have a list made out beforehand ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have tlie quantity of each article each in at was entitled
to specified?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Lefoi ehand?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, sul)pose you call, say for iii stance, Spotted Tail to receive
his supplies, how is the distribution made?
A. Spotted Tail would come Ul) and I would firid his name, and give
him otit so many pounds of sugir or coffee, or so niuch 5oa~) or tobacco,
and his squaws would take it off.
Q ~Vas his part separated in ~)iies so as to correspi~iid with the amount
on the book?
A. Yes, sir; the coffee arid sugar tied Ul) in sacks and i)tit in a pile
by itself.  Spotted Tail didn't draw there, however.
Q. Here were sugar and coffee aiid pork or bacon; and then the annuity goods- were they sel)arated (`1150?
A. In distributing the (`tIitiU~t~ o()ds we c;tlled them inside the ware.
house.yard, and put out so niany blinkets, and so niany y'irds of calico
or pieces of cal~~o, arid so niany coats, aiid so many pairs of socks, &c.,
for Red Cloud; and then the next lliaii would come lip and get his i~
the same way; there was a list made out of what they were to have.   I'
Q. ~Yas that list checked?
A. It was a long list, and it was checked off.
Q. You had nothiiig to do but check the items as each nian received
them? 
189
A. That is all.
Q. So tar as you know, is that the system which prevailed there?
k Yes, sir.
Q. Now as to pork?
A. N\~e never had any pork when I was there  it was bacon.
~ Q. N\~as tlie bacon weighed ~
A. Ye~, sir.
Q. So thit he receive~l the exact number of pounds he was entitled to?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. flow was it ascertained beforehand what be was entitled to?
A. Tlie fndians would come there  they would give tlie iliterpreter
tlie numl~er of i)eople they had in their lodges, and they would give it
ii) this way: "I have got seventeeii lodges.  I have got nizie lodges
~taiiding, and eight of them with two families in each."  That counted
seventeen lodges; they count seven i~ersons to a lodge.
Q. flow could you determine how much pork, for instance, each man
was entitled to on that day?
A. The rule was the Regular Army rule.
Q. What was the Regular Arni~ rule, as you applied it there?
A. Well, I have forgotten now; regular rations.
By Mr. H~RIS:
Q. You have a certain number of rations of each article for so many
days, ai~d those are separated ai~d weighed and delivered?
A. Yes, sir; the same as they do in the Army, exactly.
Q. Do you know anything about the number of Indians that you
supplied at any one time I
A. it was estimated at 9,000 Indians; that was in Dr. Daniels's time.
Q. Do you suppose there was that number?
A. it was the nearest we could get at it.
Q. Do you know whether there was aiiy objection on the part of the
Ii~dians to enumerating them?
A. Yes, sir; there was.
Q. State what you know about that, in your own way.
A. They didn't wish to have their lodges counted.
Q. Do you know for what reason?
A. I do not.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Did they object to that number, 9,000, as being too small?
A. No, sir.
By Mr. fiARRIS:
Q. Was it not understood by you fliat their purpose was to get more
rations than they would get if there was at enumeration?
A. N\Te used to avoid that in this w;~y: When an indian would come
in and say," I have twenty-tive lodges," (so many standing, and so
many with two families to a lodge,) we would cut them down to about
eight~eti, and give him rations for about eighteen lodges; and still we
had 9,000.
Q. So that you actually gave ratiotis to a less number of Itidiaiis than
they claimed they were entitled to?
A. Y~5, sir.
~Q. ~Vhat do you think, froiti your expericice is tlie usu'tl nutaber of
a family; do you think it will average seveit?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you think it would be five? 
190
A. I tiiiiik it would be b~tweeii four and five.  I doii~t think it would
1111 ov~r five, fron~ what I h;'ve seen of Indi;ti~s iii tlie lodges where I
li~ive been.
TESTIMONY OF GLORGE ~IA hSfJALL.
By the CHAIRMAN;
Question. ~Vliere do you reside?
Answer. I reside at Couzicil Bluffs.
(? ~Ir. ~farshall, we would like to have you tell us ailything you
know with refereiiee to the supplies flirnished for tlie Iiidians~any of
the agencies out here, and any matters relating to tlie tralisportation of
tlie supplies, or any information that You can ~jve that will assist us in
1S~~Fttining whether these supplies are I)roperiy and honestly furnished
~o the Indians.
A. \Vell, sir, in the last eighteen months I have had nothing to do
with it except to make one shipment of corn, about a month ago, upon
this new contract. Three years ago, or two years ago, I had something
to do with it. All I had to do with it was to ship supplies from here
to tite agencies. I was employed by General Dodge to receive them
here and ship them through, not all of them, but a portion of theniflour, and b;tcon, and corn-and shipped them to Red Cloud and Spotted
Tail agencies.
Q. That was before ~IcCann had the contract?
k Yes, sir.
Q. Are you now a contractor for supplying corn?
4 No, sir; I am merely shipping it for Baldwin. I suppose lie is
the coii tractor.  I make out the bills of lading in his ~`t~~.
Q. That is John T. Baldwin, of Council Bluffs?
A. Yes, sir.
(? Do you know anything ah out tlte Indian aft-airs at Fort ~aiidall`?
A. Two years ago I was up there; I have not beeji there since.  I
~hil~pe~I a lot of freight from there.  I commenced shipping from here,
`ind then had orders to go to Fort Randall and ship from there a couple
of iiionths, aii~l then I eaii~e back heic again from Fort Randall to SI)otted T('i~l agency. I (10 i)ot tliiiik any went fro~u Fort Rantlall to i~~ed
Cloud agency.
By Mr. llARRIS:
~? Do you kiiow anythiiig of the sale of Governmejit goods?
A. No, sir; I do not. All I had to do there was this There was a
colitract for corn, aiid that corit was shipped to me. I received it tliei'c
aiid forwaided it to tlie agency.  I had nothing more to do with the
other goods than to receive them and forward titetit.
(~.~Vhat is your occupation or business?
A. I have been a freighter all my life-time.  I am in the mail-coiifract
business now; I am a mail,contractor 110W.  ~Vheii I "`as up here seelug to some business of my own, ~Ir. Johu T. Baldwiii asked me to forward the corn for him.
Q You have no interest in the contact?
A. No, sir.
Q. You don't buy the corn?
A. No, sir.
~? You freight it?
A. I cause it to be forwarded to the agency. 
191
Q.McCann has nothing to do with the corn?
A.No, sir; as I understand it.
Q.It has been said that you bad some informatioi~ about the misappropriation of Government supplies at Fort RandIll.
A.You have been misinformed; I know tiothiiig al~out it, except I
received the corn and forwardedjt.  Tlie other goods I had nothiiig to
do with but as I have stated.
By the CHM~MAN:
Q.Do you know anything of ally irngularities in the transaction of
the busiiiess of the Indian Dep~irtment by coiitractors, agelits, or anybody else connected with it?
A.I do not know a thing in the world, excel)t my own business.  I
have heard a good deal of talk for the last three years here, biit it all
comes from men who don't know what they are talkii~g about.  I know
nothing about it, but attend to my own business.  I delivered over, on
oiie occasion, seven thousand pounds of corn ill ore than the contract
required, and I never got any receipt for it.  On another occasion I
delivered to Agent Saville one thousand pounds more than the amount
of the contract, and I told him be m~st receipt for it or I would take it
away and sell it, and he receipted to me for it.  It would have made
great talk if I bad taken it away and sold it; and if a sack had burst
and spilled a quart of corn, there would be a hundred people talking
about it.
Q.Were you in this vicinity about November or December last~
A.I left about the 20th of November, perhaps the 25th.
Q.Do you know anything of the condition of things at the Red
Cloud agency at that time?
A No, sir; I never was at Red Cloud in my life, or Spotted Tail
either.
CHEYENNF, W. T., Tuesday, A~gust 24, 1S74.
Present:lion. THoMAS C. F~i;~c~~~, chairman; Prof GEORGE W.
A1'ii~RTON, IJon. TIMOTHY 0. ROwE, lion. CHARLES J. FAULKNEI~,
and Ron. B. W. RARRIS.
Mr. Marshall was recalled.
By the CHMRMAN:
Question. Mr. Marshall, I gather tlie idea froIll your ~0~V~~S1t~0~
that you have had experience ill handling cattle.  C~n you tell us
something in regard to them?
Ans~er. Yes, sir; I have had some exl)erience iii handling cattle, and
have weighed some.  I bought a herd of cattle 011 Lan~inie plaii~s a~id
drove them to the herd near the reservation. I guessed th ciii off when I
bought them, and weighed them when I delivered them. They were Texas
cattle, most all steers froni three to four years olti, mostly three years
old. They averaged, I think, I,04S pounds or 1,()3S, I am not certaiii
which. They were a very flue lot of cattle.  It was late iii October,
probably the 15th, wher I started; I got tliei'e about tlie 20th of November, and I went throug]i some ~~retty severe storms, too.  I went right
throngh South Pass, a~d I am positive the siiow was three feet deel).
It was fully three huniired aiid fifty miles, and ~~ei'liaps niore.  The
feed was very scarce.   drove them at a pretty raiiid gait, biit took as
good care of them as I could under the ciieiiinstances.  These steers
were about an average of what they teriu beef-cattle here.  I botight 
192
them for be~f-cattle and picked them out of a herd of probably two
fl~ousand ~~~d oil the prairie. I did not pick them as closely as I
might have d~)ue in the corral, but I picked them as close as I could on
the ~~~iiHe fr~m wild ca~tle. I started with five hundred, but I lost
three on the r~ad that strayed off.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. When you were in before I asked you some questions about the
sale of some Indian goods at Fort Randall.
A. I don't know anything about the sale of goods at that place. I
know Doctor Carrier there; I have never made any statement to him
about anything of that kind; r might have told him just what I have
said to you, about some very small amount which Major Howard asked
me to collect for him. There was a time there, in two or three instances,
that the freighters got out of goods, and Major Howard let them have
some; but it did not amount to very much, not more than $100 in the
four instances.
Q. Do you say that you never, excel)t in those instances, had knowledge of the sale of Indian goods or supplies by any agent or officer of
the Government.
A. I never have, sir, except in those insta~ces; I never knew anything about it; I would not have known about that, but Major Howard
let the traders have some goods and they did not have the money to
pay for them, and he asked me to collect it.
Q. Have you at any time known of the exchange of goods between
the agent and trader, or of the loaning of supplies by the Indian agent
to the trader, to be returned,in kind ~
A. I never have. I have never heard of such a thing being done.  I
don't remember ever having said ~nything to Doctor Carrier about it.
I might have told him of those few things which I spoke of just now;
it was stuff which they had got out of and had to have; and there were
not more than four instances of that kind, and it was not more than
or $30 each time.
Q. How much corn is there at the agency~
A. Here As my bill of lading; it is 7~~2 sacks of corn, weighing 103,740
pounds.
SIn~EY, NEBa., July 4, 1875.
Received, in apparent good order, froni J. T. Baldwin, artic]es rnarked and nainbered
as billed, by James J. May, which be agrees to de]iver in like good order at the Red
~loud agency, to the Indian agent, be to receipt for said articles on the delivery of the
aa~e at his agency.
In witness whereof I, J. J. May, have affirn~ed to three bills of lading, all of this
tenor and date, one of which to be accompli~hed, tlie others to stand void.
U.S. indutn'Ag~t.
I can explain that.  It appears that the Department and Dr. Saville
were in a hurry for some corn beibre the 1st of July, on this yea?s contract; they requested Baldwin to make a shipment of corn because
they were out, and when we came to ship that corn there had been no
inspector appointed.  Captain Bskndge had not been appoioted, but a
few days after that corn was shipped he got his orders to come to Sidney and inspect the corn. Baldwin told me to ship that corn, and if
there was any inspector ther~ to have it inspected, and if not to~let it go
anyhow, and that is the way it got there; we haye no receipt for it.
Whenever there is any arrangement for some one to inspect it there we
expect to get receipts for it.  ~Ve shipped that from Sidney, in wagons
which we hired for that purpose, and we have recei[)ts from the contractor for carrying it there. 
193
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. I see that tbe rate has beeri put at *1.35 per hundred pounds. Is
that the usual rate from Sidney to Red Cloud?
A. Well, that is a little high; I can get it doi~e 110W for *1.20.  The
~rice of freights depends Uj)Oll the amount of transportation; sometimes
it is scarcer, and is therefore higher.  I think the Department is more
to blame for that corn being there than any one else, because they
wanted the corn shipped, but appointed no inspector.
CllEYENNE, W. T., Saturday, July 31, 1875.
Present:lion. THOMAS C. FLE~c~E~, chairman, Hon. B. W. HARRIS,
lion. CHARLES J. FAULKNER, and Prof. GEoRGE NY. ATHERToN.
TESTIMONY ()E W. B. DODDRtDGE.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. You reside at Cheyenne?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Q. What is your business here?
A. I am the agent for the Kansas Pacific and Union Pacific Railroad
Companies.
Q. Freight agent?
A. Freight and passenger.
Q. State if there ar~ any cars of fleight here at this time consigned
to D. J. McCann for Agent Saville, at Red Cloud?
A. There are q\iite a n~mber of cars here for M~Cann; part of them
are for Agent Savilie at Red Cloud, and part of them are for Agent Howard, at Spotted Tail.
Q. How long have they been here?
A. ~Vell, they have been coining ever since about the 1st of the
month, (July,) or before that. They have been stringing along through
the month from day to day, and some came in, I believ~ this morning.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. flow many are there in all?
A. I don't know exactly the number, but I should judge perhaps
there may be twenty car-loads.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. They have not been unloaded?
A. No, sir.
Q. The freight remains in the cars?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have tlie charges been paid?
A. No, sir.
Q. And the goods are held for the l)ayment of freight and charges?
A. Y~s, sir.
By Mr. HARRIS:
(? Are there any charges for detention?
Yes, sir.
~`. Ilow much for each car per day?
i?ive dollars p~r d;~y.
().~Vliich you have to get your pay for before the goods can be de
~iv~~'ed?
13 1 ~ 
194
A. Yes, sir; the goods stand a~ security for the charges.
Q. State if this is the first insta~~ce in which goods consigned to these
agencies have been detained here ~br non~paymei)t of freight ~
k It is the first instance that has come nuder my supervision.  I
have only been here since the 1st of Jnne.  There may have been som~
before I came.  The freight that came here in June for the agency
was received, the charges were paid promptly, and the goods were taken
away.
Q. Do the way-bills show what these cars are loaded with?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~`ill you allow us to ldok at them?
A. Yes, sir.
The CilAIRMAN. ~Ve will send, and have tlic'n coi~ied.
TLSTI~iONY OF N. J. O'BP~iEN.
By the CllMRMANi:
Question. What is your business~
Answer. I am sheriff' of Laramie County, Wyoming Territory.
Q. Mr. O'Brien, I find on the books of the Government store-keeper
that some time in August last year it appears that there was so tue flour
that was passed through the store-keeper's hands, in soin e way or other,
for the delivery of which you were the agent of Mr. Martin. Tell us how
that was.
A. I was Mr. Martin's agent to see that the flour was forwarded.
Some flour was to be shipped here from Oma a and sonic from  Kansas
City, I believe; it came from the East and t e South, at any r~te.  A
portion of this flour was for Dr. Irwin's agency, (the Shoshone agency,)
and had to be inspected here.  ~~hat was condemned I generally put in
his (Freiich's) warehouse.  The balance of the flour was shipped on to
Dr. Irwin; sometimes two car-loads came in, and a portion of' it would
be condemned.  Colonel Long was the inspector. A portion of tlii~ condemned flour that was put in the warehouse, I think it came from Omaha.
Q. ~~as this warehouse used at that time by the Government storekeeper ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. N\7hat did you do then with the condemned ~our ~
A. By instructions of Mr. Martin, I ~old nearly three lii~ndred sacks
to Mr. Athorp. I cannot tell exactly how many sacks I diti sell; it was
about three hundr~d~probably more, ~nd probably less.
Q. N\~as there any of that flour at any time in your possessioli, officially, under any writ or execution?
A. No, sir; I was sim~~ly acting as agent for John II. Martin, of Denver, to look after liis flour, to see what was conden~ned was taken care
of and what was passed went on to its destination.  That is all I had to
do with it whatever.
Q. Do you kjiow whether that flour whi~h was received here for Red
Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies was put up in double sacks; I mean,
two sacks around it ~
A. I have never seen any with two sacks around it; it was all in a
plain, white sack-all that I have handled.
A. ~Vas it all brinded "Indian Department Flour`."`
A. I could not say for certain, sir.  There was a cross put on the end
of each sack of all that was condemned, and all that was passed was
marked with a steticil-plate, "Inspected,"' and the initials of Colonel 
195
Long put after the word "inspected,'~ or tlie iiiitials of his chief clerk.
Mr. Coakley was chief clerk tbr Colonel Long, aiid is consi~[ered oiie of
the best judges of flour in the country.  lie is an old mill-man and understands flour.  I am no judge of flour myself, except whcii it is ii~ade
up into bread.  Some flour that came from Omaha was braiided "Inspected by Barclay N\~hite," and that was re-insi)ected here by ~1r. Long.
All the flour that I haiidled had oiily one white muslin sack; I iiever
have seen a double sack.
Q. Do you kiiow aiiything about the weight of these sacks?
A. No, sir; I never weighed them; I suppose they weighed ninety
six pounds.
Q. Are you sure there was only oiie sack around the flour; flour is
usually put up iii double sacks-two ~acks together~
A. There may have been two muslin sacks arouiid the flour; when I
say it was in single sacks, I have in mind the double sacks we used to
have in the Army; the outer one was a sort of
the inside sack.                       6unny or burlap around
By Mr. FAVLKNER:
Q. State what became of this condemned flour?
A. I sold the most of it to Mr. Athorp, and he sent the n~ost of it
around the country in small quantities to different people, and tried to
SeJI. it out five or six sacks at a time, but he could not; he peddled it
Q. Do you know whether it was used for human food, or for feedtng
A. it was used for human food; used by those ranchinen and stockgrowers on the plains.  I kiiow Mr. Athorp told me he used some of~i
and it was very good flour.
TESTI~[ONY OF J. W. llAMMOND.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Question. ~~here do you reside ~
Answer. I reside at this place, (Ch~venne.)
Q. N\'~hat is your business?
A. I am deputy United States surveyor.
Q. State if y~u measured the distance from  here to tlie Red Cloud
agency?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~rhen?
A. Well, it was last November-November, iS 74; I do not remember
the exact date.  I handed a certified report to the county com[nisAioner
which shows the distance to all iiitermediate stations between here and
the agency.
Q. Do you recollect the distance froin h crc to P~ed Cloud ~
A. I do.
Q. And what is it?
A. It is 145+ miles.
Q. That is by which route ~
A. That is by the old agency route; I crossed the river at Ni&hola,
Janis's.
Q. is that the route the freight is hauled over?
A. I thiiik not. I think the freight-teams cross the river about seven
or eight miles below. 
i96
Q. You do not know where these freight-trains do cross?
A. No, sir; I understand that they occasionally go over Cu the other
ro~d, (the road I surveyed,) which is the ronte traveled by the Uiiited
States mail.  I supposed they would go the shortest way and upon
inquiry I understood that was the i~earest road.
Q. That is, the distance from Cheyenne to the present ~~ed Cloud
agency?
A. Yes, sir; to the present Red Cloud agency by the way of the old
agency.
By Mr. FALTLKNER:
Q. Is itagood road?
A. Yes, sir.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. Do you know the reason why the freight-wagons going there
crossed the stream at a different point from where you did?
A. No, sir; I believe there is said to be a better ford fl~ere at times.
Q. If they crossed seven or eight iiiiles below where yoii did, would
that lengthen the route much?
A. I should think not, from the general direction, inasmuch as we
bear to the east.
Q. Do you know the route over which Mr. McCann sends his goods
from here to Red Cloud?
A. No, sir; not farther than the Platte River.
(Q.J)id you measure the same routeto the Platte River which he uses?
A. No, sir, not exactly; he crossea the river seven or eight miles
below the old agency.
Q. His route, as you tinderstand it, is something nearer?
A. It is said to be something faither.
Q. Do you know how much I
A. I do not.
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD DUNN.
By ~Ir. HARRIS:
Question. Mr. Dunii, what is your business?
Ai~swer. Freighting.
Q. How lon~ have you been in that business?
A. About tifteen ~ears.
Q. Have you beci doiiig it l~ere at this point?
A. No, sir.
Q. ~here? A. On the Platte.
Q. How loug have you been freighting from here?
A. I guess about three years, likely.
Q. H'Lve you a contract with Mr. McCanii for freightiiig?
A. I had last year.
Q. How many teams an~l wagons have you?
A. I have six of my own. There were nine runiiing with me last
year; I hired the others.
Q. Your train consisted of nine teams?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How in any oxen do you have to each team?
A. From five to six yoke.
Q. Did you carry the goods to the Red Cloud agency?
A. Yes, sir.
r 
197
Q. And to the Spotted Tail agency?
A. Not to Spotted Tail. I did Hot go to Spotted Tail last season.
Q. Where do you load at this end?
A. ~enerally here, or at Canip Carling.
Q. What were you paid per hundred pounds~
A. Orie dollar and a half, (~l.5O.)
Q. Did you haul any freight back?
A. Sometimes I had some hides back.
Q. Anything else?
A. No, sir.
Q. For whom did you bring back tlie hides?
A. Sometimes for Walter.
Q. ~Vho is ~Ir. Walter?
A. I don't know who lie is.
Q. Is lie a trader?
A. Yes, sir; I understood lie was a trader at P~ed Cloud agelicy.
Q. Did you have any other freight back ~
A. No, sir.
Q. Not at any time last year?
A. No time last year; I always came back eiiipty, unless I was loaded
with hides.
Q. Did you freight in the winter ~
A. ~ot much last winter.
Q. Row much did you receive per hundred pounds last winter ~
A. Well, I believe *1.50, all the year around, if I recollect right.
Q. What are you receiving this year ~
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Di(l you do freighting for hiin (~IcCann) up to the last of June,
this year?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Arid yoii had S1.50 per hundred pounds for freighting froiti here
to Red Cloud, up to the last of June, last year ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Row much have you carried this year since the first of July.
A. I would have to look over my
Q. Row many trips have you made in July?
A. Two trips up.
Q. Rave you seen Mr. McCann?
A. No, sir.
Q. Rave you made a bargain with any one?
A. No, sir.
Q. Who employed you since the first of July?
A. I don't know that I have hauled any since the first of July; that
is the time my contract was up.
Q. Then you have not made two trips this month?
A. Not this month; this sl)ring, I mean.
Q. So you have now no contract for carrying goods for ~Ir. MeCaun ~
A. No, sir.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. In going from here to the Red Cloud a~ency with your freight.
wagons, which road do you travel?
A. The lower road.
Q. Is it farther from here to Red Cloud ag~ncy to go by tlie mail.
route, than to go by the way you usually travel?
A. Yes, sir, it is. You cannot haul any frei~ht on the mail-road to
do any good; you could haul a little, perhaps.
Q. Is tlie road you travel longer than the stage-route? 
198
A. Yes, sir I think it is.
(? About how much longer do you think it is?
A. I don't know. They hive been snrveying it; I could 1)Ot tell; it
would be no use for me to gi~~e my idea of the distance.
(~.Do your wagons usu`lIly come back that w.~y?
A. No, sir.  I geiienilly CO!)) C back the same road I go.
Q. The empty w'~gons could come back that way?
A. Yes, sir. An empty wagon could. There is`ibout eight miles
you have got to double on a stretch there, and it is sandy, and the
horses would ii~ire to their bellies except when it is frozen.  ~Vith a
light wagon you can go all right, but wheii you put seveiity or eighty
hundred-weight on a wagon you cannot do it.
By Mr. llARRiS:
(~.llow far do you call it, an~~ng you freighters, from here to 1{ed
Cloud ~
A. I (lon't know what they call the distance.
Q. Do you mean to say that you freighters do not know the distance ~.
A. There are some freighters in this country you could not nuderstai~d aiiy mole than if they talked Dutch.
Q. You have traveled it a great m any times~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you not form your own opinion as to tlie distaiice?
A. I have.
Q. How far is it, in your ol;iniou ~
A. About one hundred and eighty miles from here to ~ed Cloud to
go by the way you can haul freight.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. llow long does it take to make the trip ~
A. About a month, going and coming, in good weather.
Q. How long would it take in going I
A. About fifteen days if a man is not delayed in crossing the Platte.
Q. And then how long does it take you to unload I
A. About a day or a little over.  It is all owing to the kind of
fl-eight.
Q. Do you stop to rest your teams?
A. They get hungry; they have not much feed there; they don't get
mu(~~) rest.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. I w ant to ask you whether, at aiiy time since you have been contra~ting to carry supl)lies for Mr. McCann to 1~ed Cloud agency, lie has
ever guaranteed you against loss by Indian depredations?
A. Not any, sir.
Q. Do you know of his having guaranteed any freighter against such
loss?
A. I d~ii't know that; I have heard some talks of it.
Q. So far as you are concerned, you have had to run your own risks
of Iiidians attackiiig you or taking your cattle?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Has he 1)rovided anybody to accompany you to I)rotect you?
A. No, sir; only at one time. N\~e had to lay over on tiie Platte for
a little while waiting for something of that kind.
Q. Did he protect you?
A. It was his protection, or the protection of somebody else; I don't
know who they were ordered by.
Q. I mean whether or not he furnished men to go with you to keep
the Indians off? 
199
A. You want to know whether he furnished men from here?
Q. Yes, or from anywhere.
~. The 5Up1)OSitiOfl is there was such a thing done.
Q. Have you ever seen such men?
A. I saw lots of men; they didn't aftbrd me any protection; the snpposition is that he did, hecanse I was waiting there on the Platte with
freight.
Q. I mean did lie protect you against Indian raids or Indian attack;
do you know of his furnishing or agreeiiig to furiiish anybody to protect
you?
A. Yes, sir; I believe he agreed to at one time, when there was a
man or two killed.
Q. Did he furnish such protection?
A. Men came there; I never asked the question who furnished them.
Q. If you lost any cattle did you have to stand the loss yourself?
A. Yes, except I got it put in my bill-having lost a pony.
Q. Did ~~cCann ever pay you for it ~
A. Not yet; lie has promised in a kind of a way that be would.
Q. Did you lose the poiiy by Indians?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long ago was that?
A. About two years ago.
Q. Has he ever promised to furnish you any protection from here to
Red Cloud agency?
A. In case that it would be required, I believe he has.
Q. In case it was needed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever lost any cattle by Indians while you were going
from Clieyeuiie to Red Cloud ageiicy?
A. Not to tl~e Red Cloud agency.
Q. I want to know whether you have an arrangement with McCann
by which he guarantees you against loss by Iudiaii depredations?
A. Nothing but verbally. He said something to that effect; I don't
remember now what it was.  I didn't pay much attention to it at that
time, because it was not needed.
By Mr. ATllERTON:
Q. You said you had no arrangement with him for getting pay for
your I)oiiy except you put it in your bill; your bill against whom?
A. Against the Indian Department, I suppose.
Q. Yo(i spoke of Mr. ~~IcCann having not promised to pay you, but
sort of promised
A. ~Tell, it was verbally; like anybody else would talk.
Q. ~Vhat did he tell you he would do iii case of the ~)ony you lost?
A. The pony was not lost on McCann's contract at all.
By Mr. HARR~S:
Q. You haven't lost any cattle since you have bee ii freightiiig for
Mc(?an~~?
A. ~o, sir; I never lost a hoof, except what died.
By Mr. ATHERroN:
Q. At the time you were lying on the Platte, liow bug did you have
to wait?
A. 0, well, going, 1 was wanderiiig through the Platte, back aid forward, I guess about a week altogether. The Platte freezes over in the
winter. It is difficult to cross the Platte in the wiiiter.
Q. I understood you to say that, while you were waiting there, some
men came along. 
200
A. 0. ~es; some soldiers aiid some citizens.  I believe McCann's
outfit was loaded with animuiiition then, and they were lookiiig for
~~cCanii~s outfit, to stop it.
TESTIMONY OF JUDGE JOSEPH M. CAP~EY.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. Judge you un~lerstand the object ft~r ~vhielj this coinmissiou was appointed  if you caii give us ariy information that will enable
us to fiud out anything ai)i)roactiing tlie real fa~ts about these niatters
we are in~~estigatfug, we would like to avail ourselves of it.
Aiiswer. I expect that I am like many others, i!i this: that I have
heaid constantly a great deal that has been said in this conilnunity
about these matters, but it is not evidence, it is only hearsay. At a
very recent term of the court in the western l)art of tlie Teiritory,
where they were pro~ecuting a man for the sale of liquors at the Sho.
shone reservatioii, the Indian ageiit was over at court and iii my room
a good deal, and I believe him (Dr. Irwin) to be a thoroughly honest
man, and that he has taken a great deal of interest in the Iiidians.  He
told me something about Indian matters; and, although it made a kind
of an impression on iuy mind, that impression passed away. It was
about something he discovered at this warehouse, (Frenchs warehouse,)
that the tIour for the Sioux Indians which was inspected by French
was bad; he told me lie sent a telegram immediately to the Coin missioner of Indian Affairs, or the Secretary of the Interior, telling him it
was an outrage on the Iiidians to have such flour sent to them, and he
said that the matter was promptly rectified; that the new inspector
condemned the flour.  He said to me it seemed very strange that they
permitted such things to be done at the agency. He told me that the
same contractors were filling the beef-contract at the Red Cloud agency;
that he said to the man who brought up the beef, "flow much do these
cattle weigh ~" ai~d his answer was, "These cattle will weigh, according
to the way we turn them in there, about 1,100 pounds;" that he then went
to Captain Torry, an Army officer, and asked him to go out and estimate the~weight and seal up his estimate; that he asked J. K. Moore
(post-trader) to do the same; that he then went out himself and niade
his own estimate of their weight; that he came back and took their
estimates out and opened them, and took the average; and I think he
said that the average made about 800 pounds; that he told the man
George, "I will receive the cattle at that weight, and I will receive
them at no other estimate," and he finally turned them in, and a voucher
was immediately made oi~t for that amount; and he said that in a small
amount of cattle they fell short some 15,000 pounds, and he immediately
reported it to the Secretary of the Interior and told him iiot to pay the
amount charged, as the actual weights fell short that much. These
things came under the personal observation of Dr. lrwiii at his own
agenQY,~except about the flour.
-By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. You understood that the cattle which were turned in there, and
whose weight he had estimated, were turned in by the same mjn who
was supplying the Red Cloud agency 1
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that man said that he had turned them in at Red Cloud at
an average of 1,100 pounds~
A. Yes, sir; about that.  I think early this spring a freighter by 
201
the name of Athorp was owing our firm something, and be said he would
like us to take some flour for horse-feed; he said it was furnished by a
man by the name of Martin; I asked him, "Is it good fi~~~~~ "0, no,,'
be said; "it is not fit to use. I do not consider it good for food. I will
sell it to you very low."  Be said he did not consider it good except for
horse-feed; that he was selling some of it for that purpose.  I asked
Mr. Whipple about it, and he told me it was worth nothing; that he
had taken a little of it, and he did not want any more of it; he did not
consider it a saleable article.  ~fr. Whipple is a grocer in this place, a
very fine man, and a man who felt very bitter about this contract that
was awarded to Mr. ~IcCann.  ~~r. ~Vhipple was tlie lowest bidder1
and his bonds were satisfattory, to deliver the goods to the Red Cloud
agency; but tbe coi~tract was awa~-ded to Mr. McCann, because McCann went outside of the advertisement, and bid to transport the freight
from and to railroad poilits.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.The main thii~g I wanted to inquire of you about was Texas cattle; about tl'e general average weight of Texas cattle, such as they
call "through cattle," cattle which they drive up fron~`~exas in the
spring and sell here in the fall.
A.~Vhat we would call Texas beef i~j this country, have been
driven up here before that; tl~ey have been here at least one year.  I
consider that a good Texas beef would weigh 850 pounds gross.  We
have a large herd; buy cattle ai~d steers that are driven up here, and
we feed them for one year-that is, we graze them-ai~d th~v iml)rove in
every way, and we get an extra price for them.  I have had good opport unities to judge of the weights of cattle; but there is a mali here
in town who can tell you to almost within a pound of what average
Texas cattle would weigh. I mean Mr. Brown, of Chicago, who is here
now.  I had a talk with him this morning about the weight of cattle,
and I saw that he agreed with me in my estimates.  We had a return
to-day from a train-load of cattle which we bad shipped to Chicago, and
which arrived there on ~~ednesday morning. They were picked out of
a large herd, and many of them had been in this part of the country
for two years-we call them four-y~ar-olds-and the average gross
weight of the steers in the Chicago market was 950 pounds; they may
have shrunk probably 50 pounds on the journQv.  Those were cattle
that were northern-wintered, an~l had improved considerably.  There
were three car-loads of cows, aiid they averaged 825 pounds a head at
Chicago.  These cattle were picked out of a large herd of 3,000.  If we
should pick out 100 bead we could get aii average of l~0001 or 1,050
pounds; but they would have to be very large cattle.  We pick
steers out of our herd for butchers to kill, and they usually net on tlie
block from 400 to 500 pouiids, and some few of them would go higher.
I am speaking now of the average; some weigh a good deal more.
Cows that would iiet 450 pounds would weigh about 900 pounds gross.
Q.I want to call your attention to some figures.  In the official statement, on file in the Treasury Del)artment showing the number and
weight of beef-cattle delivered at the Red Cloud agency during the fiscal
year ending June 3(), 1875, as app~L~S by the receipts of J. J. Saville,
~he agent1 it seems that there were -lelivered on the 14th of November
701 head, weighing 731,485 pound~, an average of considerable over
1,000 pounds; on December 3, 597 icad, weighing 621,447 pounds1 an
average of considerable over 1,000 poni~ds each; on January 1, 641
head, weighin~ 668,578 pounds, an ~verage of considerable over 1,000
pounds; on February 1, 437 head, weghing 451,203 pounds, ~~ average
of considerable over 1,000 pounds; on tlie 17th of February, 467 head, 
202
w~ghiug 486,114 pounds, an average of nearly 1,100 pounds; on March
I, ~6 head, weighing 99,303 pounds, an average of considerable over
1~~0)0 pounds; on March 25, 539 head, weighing 555,210 pounds, which
0n average of over 1,000 pounds; on April 1, 583 he ad, weighing
589,061 pounds, which again is an average of over I,0()0 pounds.  Now,
these Texas cattle that have been wii~tered in the North, and fed on
grass here for a year, and s~ improved in value by staying here during
summer, (these through cattle, as they are called,) are they not still
pretty tl~in?
A. Well, now, that depends very much upon the character of the
winter.  We find that cattle driven up here from Texas in the fall, it is
very rarely that we could get any of them good enough to kill.  I think
it is utterly impossible to get cattle in the whole State of Texas that
would average as high as those weights that you have mentioned.  Very
much depends upon the class of cattle they have turned in at the agencies. I do not know about what kind they have delivered. If they turn
in yearlings and two-year-old steers, (and I understand they do,) they
could not average anything like those weights.
Q. From the 1st of July, 1874, to the 25th of the following June there
were delivered at the Red Cloud agency 11,511 cattle that weighed
11,748,598 pounds, w-hich is considerably over an average of 1,000
pounds for the whole number.  Now, what do you think of that?
A. That it is an impossibility.  Stock-men here who have bought cattle here repeatedly, and have bought fro~m other stock-men in the country,
tell me that such things are impossible. The difficulty is this: no honest
man would aftempt to fill that contract at the pflce~ it would ruin him.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. What is the price of four-year-olds and upwards that will weigh
a thousand pounds a head?
A. If I could get good green cattle of that kind, I think I would give
$25 a head for all that I could get.
Q. Do you know of any being sold as low as $18 and $20?
A. No good beeves are sold at that price.  You can buy green Texas
cattle at from $20 to $21 a head; that is what they brought this year.
They bought the cows for $12 -and the steers for $20.  Mabry, Millett
and Ellison are large contractors.  They have driven up this year 50,000
head of cattle, and they told me that they had sold to the Boslers about
25,000 head.
Q. I understand Mr. Ellison has told you he had no interest in the
-contract except to sell his cattle?
-A.Yes, sir; the Boslers agreed to take his cattle from him.  Now,
here is a return which I have just received of a lot of cattle sold in Chieago-278 head of beeves, weighing 264,390 pounds; 45 cows, weighing
37,000 pounds. I do not think the shrinkage between h~re and Chicago
exceeded 50 pounds a head, and probably it would not be- so much as
that.
Q. Have you ever been to the Red Cloud agency ~     -
-A.Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen Bosler's herds I         -
A. I have not.
By the CllMRMA~:
-Q.Bosler' says he can buy four-year-old steers for $18 and cows for
$12 and yearliiigs for $7?
A. He probably can buy a certain article at that price. Mr. Ellison
told me that Bosler paid $12-and $20 for cattle he bought to fill this
year's contract. 
L      203
By Mr. HA~RiS:
Q. These are through cattle, are they ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were bought for these Indian agencies t
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are they four-year-olds~
A. Yes, sir; I thiiik they are four-year-old steers aiid cows.
Q. You do not get cows here that weigh 1,000 pounds, do you?
A. No, sir.
Q. N\That class of cattle could you find in this country which through
the year from July to April, as turned in, would average over a thousand
pounds ~
A. ~~ell, you could find some American steers here arid in Colorado
that would probably be three-quarters Durham; they are shipped to
the markets of the East.
Q. For what price could you furnish such cattle?
A. Probably *45 a head.
Q. Do you think there would be any way of furnishing through the
year cattle averaging over 1,000 pound~, at less cost that?
A. J might get them lower than that, but I doubt it very much.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Mr. J. H. Bosler told us soniething about cattle commissioners or
cattle inspectors appointed under the law of Nebraska, who ijispeet each
drove of cattle which is driven into the State, to see if there are any
cattle belonging to other herds.  Do you know anything abou~t such
an arrangement?
A. I do not; that is an individual arrangement.  I think it I~ very
likely. They have stock-associations for this Territory to prot~ct the
stock.growers. The cattle get mixed, and they separate them, aijd take
them to the range where tbey were raised.  There is a gentle~au at
Denver who c~~uld give you a good deal of information about the~weight
of cattle.  His name is Mr. Bishop.  He is a very respectable party.
By Mr. HA~RiS:
Q. Do you know anything about Dr. Saville's management of' affairs
at the Red Cloud agency?
A. I do not.
Q. You know him, I suppose?
A. I know the Doctor, but cannot tell you anything a~out the management of his affairs.  I know very little about the management of
Indian matters in this country.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Do you know Mr. McCann?
A. I know him to speak to him when I see him.
Q. lie has not been about here much, has lie
A. He has been here some.  lie has the reputation of being a very
shrewd man.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Is tt)at the exact phrase you would employ in expressing your own
views?
A-. The fact is, gentlemen, I do not countenance these wrongs in any
way.  I ~~ccupy a judicial position here, iu which I have to determine
the right of parties, and I try iiot to know a great deal, except about
my own ~usiness.  But my impression is that these thiiigs have been
managed cry badly, and very much to the detrimelit of this country; 
a~d public sentiment is in favor of mismanagement. This freighting
business amounts to a goo~ deal of money for this_town.  Supplies are
bought here; the Treight~rs get their money here to-day and spend it
to-night; and I believe th(~ have always been afraid to say or do anything against the Indian ccntractors, lest they should move all this patronage from town.  Mr. N\~hipple, whose contract was rejected, was a
man capable of filling the contract, and I think he was a thoroughly reliable and upright man; but I suppose he thought it would be better
not to say anything, because he lives in town.  I got, though, as I told
you a moment ago, more information from Dr. Irwin, agent for the Shoshone Indians, than from ai~y other person.  lle is one of those men who,
if he remained twenty years in office, would come out without one cent.
lle is a man who has no bad habits, and he takes a good deal of pride
in his business. But there are men who will tell you all about these
matters, if they are disposed to do it.  One Qf those men is Mr. Moore,
who lives here in town. I look at this Indian question differently from
many people. I think that every time the Indian is wronged he is going
to take the worth of it out of somebody else.  If they take one head of
stock from him, one head that he thinks belongs to him, he is going to -
make it up from somebody else, and hence the Indians are always cornmitting depredations, and that excites the people.  But if there should
be some system by which the treaties with the Indians could be carried
ont to the very letter, I believe these difficulties on the borders would
cease. I think the Indians are disposed to be peaceable, and I think it
is decidedly to the interest of this conatry (notwithstanding others do
not) to have this Indian business transacted in an honest manner. The
Indians are constantly going up and preying upon the Shoshone Indians and stealing from the settlers in the ~Vind River country, and they
all say, "We are cheated and wronged, and we have a right to take from
these Indians when the whites are so friendly to them." You will get
the most reliable information from the Army offleers.
Q. The contractors are not very apt to send to the Indian agency
cattle that they can send to the Chicago market ~
A. 0, no, sir.
CHEYENNE, W. T., Wednesday, August 25, 1875.
Present: llon. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman; llon. CHARLES J
FAULKNER, lloti. B. W. llARRIS, Prof. ~EORGE W. ATHERToN, and
llon. TIMOTnY 0. llowE.
Judge Cary was recalled.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Question. I want to ask you some questions about the conversation
you have had with Mr. Ellison. I want to know what informatiou he
has communicated to you, if any ~
Answer. Well, I don't know what the nature of Mr. Ellison's communication was, whether it was a confidential one or not, but he said
to me on the train two or three weeks ago, between here and Denver,
in conversation on the subject of stock, that they bad sold out, and he
then named the number of cattle sold to Bosler.  lle said, "You know
Mabry got the contract this year, and he was not required to fill it; but
the Boslers, I believe, gave the bond and took the contract off his
hands." lle said, "We made nothing by it, except the privilege of turning in our cattle." lle gave me the prices, but I cannot recollect them.
I think the prices he said $11 and $18, or $12 and $20.  lle made the
remark to me that no man could fill the contract at the prices; that he 
205
bad got a good market for his cattle.  I said, "You would not fill that
contract at that price, nor would I.,, He said, "No I would not fill it~"
and be gave his explanation, which I do not wish to give here.  I see no
difficulty in filling a contract of that kind if you can get cattle that would
weigh the amount for $18 a bead. But I will agree to give $24 for every
Texas steer averaging the weight that those cattle are said to weigh; I
mean cattle that are the right kind for any market, in this city or Chicago,
or to fill Army contracts.  I will give $24 for that kind; I would have
agreed to give $24 for them on the 23d of last April.
Q. Suppose ~ou can buy Texas cows for $12 ~~~iece which will weigh
900 pounds, and  Texas steers at $20 apiece, which weigh 1.000
pounds, would you see any difficulty ill filling the Indian contract if
you were going to get $2.47 per 100 pounds when they are delivered ~
A. You could fill it, but it would be at a small profit.
Q. T:ike a mixed herd of 20,000 Texas cattle, bought at the prices
which Mabry says be paid for them, what would it cost to hold and deliver them, providing they were kept on the public domain, where pasturage is free ~
A. Our experience in the business is this, that we cannot take care of
these cattle in this country-that is, herd them, for the year, for
much less than $2 a head. I think last year I got it down to $1.90.  I
have had between 6,000 and 7,000 in a herd this last year.  They don't
count at all for the loss, and the loss is 2 or 3 per cent. in consequence of cattle straying and dying.  A man who can buy cattle at the
prices you refer to, of course he would make some money out of itperhaps $2 a head.
Q. Would not his proportion of profit be much larger on his cows
thQn on his oxen I
A. It would be if they weighed 900 pounds. I cannot get cattle by
actual weight to weigh anything like that amount.  I shipped cattle to
Chicago to-day; many of them have been wintered here two years and
all of them twelve months; and if my returns should show that they
would weigh 1,000 pounds in Chicago, I would be perfectly satisfied.
Q. Has Mabry said aiiything to you about selling picked cattle from
-his herd?
A. He has frequently told me that he winters a lot of nice steers and
sells tbem the next spring. For instance, when he was sellitig last
year to Bosler, he took out a few nice steers, to hold; and be sold them
for $27, and is now shipping them East. Mr. Mabry bought about a thousand head lately for $20, to hold over until next year for the Chicago
market. Those cattle he bought were four-year olds.
Q. Have you known him to sell picked cattle from his herds?
A. No, except that he has offered repeatedly to deliver to us what is
known as average cattle, free from what are called scalawags, at a certain price, and I only know as far a kind of general statement in this
community that it takes a poor class of cattle iii an Indian contract.  It
is known that cattle come up from Texas and are turned over to the Indi~ns, when the same thing could not be doiie in the case for the Army
or the Chicago market.
Q. Are you buying or selling Texas cattle more or less?
A. The only way we buy is this: ~Ve buy cattle and turn them out on
our ninge, aiid carry them for one year, and a Texas animal th;~t is
brought to this climate aii(l turned out on our grass will iL!)prove so that
you would scarcely know it to be the same ani~nal ill one year it imi~roves very materially.  We can buy cows for about $12 each this yeir,
and by holding them here on this grass during the wint~~r they would
be worth $20 or $25 next seasoii.  ~~e can hold Texts steers also. 
206
Q.  What is the average weight of fonr-year.old st~ers that are driven
right off' the trail up fro~ Texas, after they have been here three
months?
A.  I think they would have to be very fine steers to weigh 900 pounds.
Q.  Why don't people around Cheyenne take Indiati contracts?
A.  If I had a desire to become a bankrupt I would Lake that contract.
I say 0 man can fill it at that pfl'ce-at $2.47 per h~ndred.  The militarycntrac ts are generally filled by men in this part of the country.
By Mr. llOWE:
Q.  Do I understand that it is your opinion that your cattle that you
sent to market did not average 1,000 pounds?
A.  It is not only my opinion, but it is a fact.  Here are the returns;
one is dated July 28, 1875.  First, there were 278 cattle, weighing
246,390 pounds, and 45 cows, weighing 37,00o pounds.
Another return, date August 18, is as follows:
Pounds.
76 steers, weighing                                     73,550
97`steers, weighing                                    59,470
21 steers, w&ghing                                     20, 640
21 steers, weighing`               19,070
78 steers, weighing                                     73,810
48 cows, weighing -                                     42,410
These were all about four-year olds-some a little over, some a little
less.
CHEYENNE, W. T., Saturday, July 31, 1875.
Present: Hon. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman; Hon. B. W. HARRIS,
Hon. CHARLES J. FAULKNER, and Prof. GEORGE W. ATHERTON.
TESTIMONY OF COL. ANDREW K. LONG.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. What is your bnsiness?
Answer. Captain and commissary of snbsistence, United States Army;
brevet lieutenant-colonel, at present stationed at Cheyenne depot.
Q.  The Commission~ of Indian Affairs, by his letter of the 2d of
September, 1874, to you, informed you that you were designated as
secretary of Indian supplies to be delivered at Cheyenne?
A.  Yes, sir; I acknowledged the receipt of it on the 4th~of September,
I believe. First, I received a telegram from General Sheridan. You had
better take my letter-book and look over it yourself  That letter-book
and these loose letters take in the whole thing from the beginning.
[Witness produces his letter-book and letters.]
Q.  After you received this instruction from the Commissioner of
Indian Affairs and acknowledged it, you then provided yourself with a
stencil- plate?
A.  I prepared that myself.
Q.  What was on it?;
A.  "Inspected.  A. K. L.  W. L. C." "A. K. L." was on the rightband corner; the "~V. L. C." was on the left.  The letter "n,'~ in the
word ~~inspected,~~ was upside down.
Q.  What did "W. L. C." mean?
A.  These are the initials of Mr. Coakley.  I appointed him to assist
me in the performance of my duties as an iii spector, and so notified the 
207
Commissioner of Indian Affirs. Be was assistant inspector on the 7th
of September.  I notified S. II. Palmer, store-keeper of Indian supplies
at Cheyenne, to furnish me sami)les of flour to be delivered by J. II.
~Iartin on' his contract, and to infbi-m me of tiie I)resentation by ~Ir.
~Iartin of any flour 011 his contract.
Q. Now, ~rajor Long, will you state when it ~~5 that you insi)ected
the fir~t flour tl~at you did iii~~pect nuder your al)l)oiI1tn~eilt?
A. I received this onler, I believe, by telegra~~li, from  General Sherida~i's headquarters-the headquarters of the ~Iilitary I)ivision of the
~1issouri.  I know it was on Sunday we came dowi~ town.  I went with
~Ir. Moore, who had beci employed in the Indian Department-what is
known as Coloiiel French's store-hou~e.  I there met i~tr. Palmer, who
was theii known as Indiaii store-keeper.  I thei asked him if lie had
any flour for inspection under tlie contract oi' J. II. Martin.  Be said
quite an amount had been shij~ped by ~IcCanii's train, but tl~at there
were 27 sneks left in the store-house.  I went aiid inspected them myself, aiid I said, "Don't ship this flour; I reje(t it, as I am inspector
here." That is all I know of this 27 sacks.
Q. What kind of flour was that?
A. It was a very inferior XX flour.  Shortly after, that, under
J. II. Martin's contract, there were two car-loads of flour, (forty-odd
thousand pounds.)  This was intended for the Shoshone reservation.
I went through the cars and insi~ected it, with my assistant inspector,
as closely as I could, and rejected the whole amount.  The samples I
took of tlie flour which I had inspected as it lay in the car were such as
to justify me in my opinion in rejecting the whole car-load.  Then afterward it was piled in tiers in the car, because they said the Indians
required it very much there, (the Shoshone reservation, Dr. Irwtn's
agency.)  And then part was received, and part was rejected and sent
over to the store-house.
Q. That which yon rejected you did not put any mark on?
A. No, sir; but afterward, when I got into the practice of it, I used
to jam the brush on the outsid of the sacks so that they could not
bring them up again.  Mr. Palmer, the store-keeper, came to me on the
platform in front of the Railroad Bouse, near the telegraph-office, and
sai~l,"Is    there no possible way that you will allow this flour to pass?"
T took it for an itisult.  I said, "No, sir; not unless it is up to the
sample; no flour can pass ~~ unless it is up to the sample.  Tlie saniple
is poor enough, God knows."
Q. Where did you get that sample?
A. I got it from Mr. Palmer.  Be said it came froiii the Indian Del)artiuent.
Q. The sample itself was very poor flour?
A. Very poor flour, sir; nobody can furnish good flour at $2.50 a hundred pounds. It stands to reason that they c-in'(.  After 1 had inspected
and rejected that amount, I ins~~ected a good deal in ore-my assistant
aiid myself-and it came up to a hetter gra~le, although some was rejected after that.  That is some of the Martin contract.  That was in 1874.
Q. Do you remember anything about the date of this nrst inspection
of flour by you; not the twenty. seven sacks, but the next lot you
inspected?
A. I don't remember; tlie certificate will sho\~ that.
Q. Do you remember what braiids were on that flour; I mean the
first lot you inspected after tlie twenty-seveli sac~-s?
A. It was marked "Indian Departuient," aii 1 1 think it came from
Kansas, somewhere; I aiii pretty sure it di(l. 
`208
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. llad it been previously inspected ~
A. No1 sir; no~ that; the only flour that had been previo'~sly in.
spected was inspected by Barclay White.
By the (3HMRMAiN:
Q. When was that ~
A. I cannot remember; that book will show it; you will see a letter
about it, {referring to the letter-book.   This letter-book, which I leave
with the commissioners, contains copies of all letters and communica.
tions from me and my assistant, and tlie subject of those inspections;
and they are correct. I also leave with the commission letters and telegrams marked 1, 2, 3, 4,5, 6, 7, and 8, as follows:
1.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,
OFFICE OF INDIAN AFFAIRS,
Washington, D. C., S1) tern b~ 2, 1874.
SIR: Captain A. K. Long, United States Army, stationed at Cheyenne, Wyoming,
has been designated as inspector of Indian supplies to be delivered at Cheyenne.
Upon i4s application, you will please turn over to him the sample of flour in your
charg~ to be delivered by Mr. J. H Martin, or as much thereof as will enable him to
make a thorough inspection of that offered for delivery.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
S. H. PALMER, Esq.,                    Th R. CLUM1 Acting Commissioner.
Store-keeper of bulian Supplies, Cke~~nne, Wyo. T.
2.
SUBSISTENCE DEPARTMENT, UNITED STATES ARMY,
CHEYENNE DEPOT, WYOMING TERRITORY,
&pternber 7,1874.
SIR: Pursuant to instructions received from headquarters Military Division of the
Missouri and the Department of the Interior, you are hereby respectfully requested to
furnish me the samples of flours to be delivered by Mr. J. H. Martin on his contract
with the Indian Department, and which I am by the above authorities detailed to in.
spect. Please inform me of the presentation by Mr. Martin of any flours on the above
contract.
I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
A. K. LONG,
Mr. S. H. PALMER,                             Captain United States Army.
Store-keeper of Indian Supplies, Cheyenne, Wyo. T.
3.
WASHliNGYON, D. C., October 2.
Captain ANDREW K. LONG, Cheyenne, Wyo.:
Twenty-five hundred sacks on Martin's contract have been inspected~at Omaha; your
thorough inspection is all right.
_____      EDW. P. SMITH, Commissioner.
4.
WASHINGTON, 1). C., October 15, 1874.
S.H. PALMER, Store-keeper, Cheyenne, Wyo.:
Allow no flour delivered under Martin's contract to leave for Red Cloud agency without the approved inspection of Captain Long, and render him all the assistance he may
require in using the flour weighed.
H.  B. CLUM, Acting Commissioner.
A true copy:
S.H. PALMER, Indian Store-~eeper. 
209
b.
CIlEYENNE, ~r~0~, October 20, 1874.
CApT~N: I have the honor to inform you that I ha~~e 615 sacks of Indian flour r~ady
for your inspection.
Very respectfully, your obedient etvant,
S. H. PALMER, htd~a;  ~tore-Eeeper.
Capt. A. K. LONG, Present.
6.
DEPAlImMENT OF THE LNTERrOn. OFFICE OF INr)IAN AFFAIRS,
flmcishington, D. C., January 14, 1875.
Stn: Referring to a letter from this Office tn S. V. Pollard, under date of 7th ultimo,
relative to the supplies of flour and bacon for the Northern Cheyenne and Arapahoc
Indians at the Red Cloud agency, you are hereby authorized to r~ceive not to exceed
10 per cent. over and above the quantity of 30,000 pounds of bacon named in said
letter.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant, ED~~. P. S~lIT II, Con~rnissIoner.
Capt. A. K. LONG, U. S. A., Cl~eyenne, Wyo.
DEPARTMENT OF THE LNTERIOR, OFFICiS OF INDIAN AFFAIRS,
JJ~ashington, D. C., April 8, 1575.
SIR: Referring to your letter of the 20th November, 1574, proposing to furnish certain supplies for the Northern Cheyennes and Arapahoes at the Red Cloud agency, and
to the letter from Agent Saville, of the 22d ultimo, requesting the delivery of certain
supplies for the Indians, I have to advise you that your proposition is in part accepted,
and to request that you furnish without delay 300,000 pounds corn a
pounds, delivered at Cheyenne, Wyo.,  t $2.20 per 100
The corn must be inspected by the regular inspector at Cheyenne, and delivered to
the agent of D. J. McCann, for transportation to the Red Cloud agency, or to R. H.
Bostwick, store-keeper, at Cheyenne.
Payment will be made on presentation at this Office of the certificate of the inspector
that the corn has been inspected and received by him, and found to be sound and sweet,
the certificate to be accompanied by proper receipts from the party to whom delivered.
The presentation of the letter to Major Long will be sufficient authority for the inspection.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
ED~V. P. SMITH, (`ommThsioner.
V. S. POLLARD, Gkeyenne, Wyo.
8.
DEPARTMENT OF TIlE INTERIOR, OFFICE OF INDIAN AFFAIRS,
Washington, I). C., June 11, 1875.
SIR: In reply to your telegram of the 8th instant, relative to the inspection of supplies at Cheyenne, ~Tyo., I have to advise you that Mr. W. L. Conkley was instructed
by telegraphic dispatch of the 9th instant, to inspect the supplies in question.
In accordance with your request, you are hereby relieved from any further responsibility in the inspection of said supplies.
Very respectfully, your obedient se~-ant
ED~T. P. SMITH, Commissioner.
Capt. A. K. LONG, U. S. A., Cheyenne, Wyo.
Q. I want to inquire about certain flour that was received here and
inspected by Barclay White, and which you re-inspected.
A. My book will show that, sir.  I rejected part of it.  There is a
long letter there about it.
Q. I understand you to say that the sample furnished you by the
Indian Department as a ~ampJe to inspect by was an inferior article of
XX flour, and some of ~he flour you inspected was snperior to the
sample and part was not ~uaI to tlie sample.
A. Yes, sir.  Some was above the sample, I averaged it all.  A very
few sacks were passed th~t were not up to the sample.
14 1 F 
Q. Was the part of the flour you rejected for the Shoshones~
A. Yes, si~~ that was the first part.
Q. And, srbsequently, the flour you inspected was for the Red Cloud
and Spotted Pail agencies?
A. Yes, sir  I did ~ot inspect two-thirds of the flour I was ordered
to inspect.  ~ome slipped through.  I don't know how it was done.  I
don't know h~~w it was paid for; but I know flour went through here
while I was inspector that I did not inspect; and I know of flour that
was purchased down at Sidney, one hundred miles east of here, bearing
`fly brand, but I do not know how it got there.
Q. You never inspected flour to go to Sidney, or to go to either of
the Indian agencies by the way of Sidney?
A. No, sir; it may have been sold by the Indians to an Indian trader,
after drawing it; and the trader may have sent it on to Sidney.
Q. Did you see the flour at Sidney yourself?
A. I did not; but I had the information from officers of the Army,
Captain Monahan, II. W. Moore, and Mr. Van Tassell.  Mr. Van Tas
sell is the post-trader at Sidney Barracks, and Mr. Moore bought this
flour for him.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Do you say that while you were inspector here, certain flour was
passed to the agencies without your inspection?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. llow did that occur; what is the explanation of it'
A I don't know bow it went tliroflgh.  My letters will show that I
had an order to inspect so much, and my books will show that I
did not inspect the whole of that amount.  Colonel French, I believe,
inspected a part of it, and these twenty-seven sacks were part of the
200,000 pounds which he inspected, and all of which was gone from the
warehouse, except those twenty-seven sacks, bef~re I began to inspect
flour here; and, as I understood afterward, (after I had condemned itbefore it was shipped,) that they were sacks which had been rejected
by Colonel French, and, as Mr. Palmer t&~d me, they were shipped to
Red Cloud agency by mistake when he was not present.
By the CHMRm&A~:
Q. So that the twenty-seven sacks of flour, which you were informed
had been rejected by French, were also rejected by yourself?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you understood afterward that they were shipped to tlie Red
Cloud agency?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whom did you understand that from?
A. From Mr. Palmer. Palmer was store-keeper before Bostwick.
Q. Did you inspect all of this 27 sacks?
A. I did, every one of them; I went through the whole of them.  This
flour was a very poor grade of XX flour, but it was not spoiled;
it was neither wet nor musty; but it was a very poor grade of flour.  It
was so chopped that you could not make bread out of a part of it to save
your soul.
Q. Now, in reference to this flour you spoke of as bearing your brand,
that you were informed had been ~~old at Sidney, did the gentleman
who informed you tell you the number of sacks that were there?
A. Mr. Moore told me he bought 150 sacks for Mr. Van Tassell; he
did not say from whom; he said he could have bought a great deal more
he had wanted it. 
211
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.llow do you know that flour had passed through here to the agency
without inspection ~
A.Only persons told me so, and I knew the amount tlie Commissioner of Indian Affairs had ordered me to receive aiid the amount that
I inspected.
Q.C~'~n you tell how you fix your evide'ice
A.Only by the letters.
Q.By whom were you told?
A.I could not tell you, sir; when I was ~`~i)p0inted here, there was
~~uch a revolution among men, I don~t re~ueiiil~er.
Q.Did you have any idea at the time of tlie amoui~t that l)assed
through without your inspection?
A.I did not.
By the C~AiRMAN:
Q.N\~as that flour put up in double sacks?
A.Yes, sir; they were all double-cottou sacks.  At flist they were
short of 100 pounds.
Q.Did you weigh any sacks containing only SS pounds?
A.No, sir; none were less than 9S; it was on J. II. Mar~in's contract.
Q.~Vhat was the weight of the sacks that came from Rurford~
A.Ninety-eight pounds net; or 100 pounds gross.
By Mr. llARRis:
Q.Did you ever see any sacks of flour there weighing as low as SS
pounds~
A.No, sir; my first instructions did not tell me to weigh; it was only
after the second instructions that I commenced to weigh.
Q.In giving your receipts, you give them for the sacks as weighing
()~ pounds?
A.Yes, sir; there is a letter in the book explaining that. I bad no
instruction first to weigh; it was only to test the quality of the flour.
Q.~~ho was the store-keeper here when you did this ~
A.Mr. Palmer was part of the time, Mr. Bostwick afterward.
Q.~?ho was the store-keeper at the time you inspected the flour that
had been rejected by Barclay ~Vhite?
A.Mr. Palmer.
Q.You know nothing about the administration of affairs at the
agency?
A.No, sir; I never was there.  I have heard a great deal from officers of the Army about the way the Indians suffered last winter.
Q.~~ho are they; can you name them ~
A.Yes; I can name a good many of them.
Q.Name such as you now remember.
A.Capt. N\~. W. Rogers, Ninth Infaiitry, stationed at Spotted Tail.
Captain Rogers told me most of it.  I wili not mention any other names.
Q.Is he there now?
A.lle is on leave of absence in Philadelphia.
Q.For how long?
A.Six months, I think. The other officers up there know about it
he said most positively it was the fault of the Indian Department.
Q.~~hat time was that flour bought at Sidney?
A.I cannot tell you.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.You are a commissary of subs:stencu ~
A.Yes, sir. 
Q. Is it in the line of your duties to make purchases of beef for the
military post here?
A. Contracts come to me here from tht Department.
Q. Do you receive the beef here?
A. Yes, sir; on the block.  I am at the depot, remember, not at the
post, Fort D. A. P~ussell.
Q. It is not part of yonr duty to purchase and see weighed the cattle
911 the hoof?
A. No, sir.
Q. Who is post commissary here at  Who inspects the Army beef?
A. Nobody inspects the beef; it is received on the block.
Q. Who receives it from the contractor?
A. The commissary.
Q. Who is the commissary?
A. The commissary at each post.
Q. Who is the commissary at this post at
A. Lieutenant Pardee. We do not take beef on the hoof, only when
going on expeditious.
Q. The duty of the cowmissary is to weigh the beef on foot, when you
are going on an expedition at
A. Yes, sir; that is the duty of the assistant commissary of sub.
sistence.
Q. llave you had any experience in this region of country as corn missary of subsistence in receiving beef from the contractors on foot at
A. I have not; I have in New Mexico and Kansas.
Q. What kind of cattle were those at
A. Texas cattle.
Q. What was the average weight of those Texas cattle you received at
A. Texas cattle fl~at weighed 900 pounds each were considered very
big ones.  They cannot be driven from Texas, and weigh 900 pounds
apiece when they get here.
Q. Take an ordinary herd of Texas cattle, what would they average?
A. Eight hundred or 850 pounds, three or four year old steers- that
would be a high average.
Q. Well, as to cows at
A. Cows won't weigh anything like that.
By Mr. FAUL~NER.
Q. You in can by that through cattle at
A. Texas cattle driven up through.
Q. You have seen a good many Texas cattle; did you ever see a herd
of Texas cattle that would average 1,000 pounds, taking the whole
herd together at
A No, sir; I never did.
CHEYENNE, W. T., Tuesday, August 24, 1875.
Present: llon. THOMAs C. FLETCHER, chairman; llon. B. W. llARRIS,
llon. CHARLES J. FAULKNER, llon. TIMOTHY 0. Bo~, and Prof.
GE0RCrE W. ATHERToN.
Colonel ANDREW K. Lox~ was recalled.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. Colonel, in a former statement which you made to us, you
made an estimate of the average weight of ordinary herds of Texas cattle.
In making that estimate did you refer to mixed or promiscuous herds of
cattle, or to herds of beef-cattle? 
2t3
Answer. I made the statement as they are brought up to use in the
Army.  That is the way our contract reads-that no beef shall weigh
less than four hundred pounds on the block, or eight hundred and fifly
pounds (S50) gross, but I have never yet seen a herd of Texas cattle that
would average eight hundred and fifty pounds gross.  I au~ not speaking of selected steers.  I have never seen the~ selected out.  I have
taken them just as they were brought to us by the beef-contractor.
When I speak of the herds of Texas cattle I refer to promiscuous cattle,
and I do not refer to herds of what is termed beef-cattle of four-yearold steers and upward, but only as they drive them  up and put them
on the scales.  We require that every animal must weigh iiot less than
eight hundred and fifty pounds.  They may go over that, but every one
must weigh four hundred pounds on the block; and if it don't come up
to that we reject it, and charge the contractor with that, and go out and
buy them in open market.  I said in my former statement that I never
saw a herd of cattle, as theyidrive them up, that would average one thousand pounds-I have seen them.  I have never seen a herd of selected
steers, as to speak of them.  I speak of the herds of Texas cattle
as they are driven through, which indudes everything, and cows.
Q. These Army cattle which you speak of, (lid you e~-er see any of
these herds on the hoof~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, when you weigh them on the hoof for the use of the Army,
are they required, before they are weighed, to be what is termed lotted
for twelve hours?
A. No, sir; but we are very careful not to let them drink water; they
are kept in the corral the day before they are received and theii taken
to the ~cales.  There is one statement which has been mad~ to the effect
that all flour which went up there bore my ijispection-braud, or bore
a certificate to that effect.  This is a mistake.  I do not like it to be said
that all flour which went up there bore my inspection-brand.
By the CIlAiRMAN:
Q. Then you did not re-inspect that which was inspected by Barclay
White?
A. Yes, sir, some of it; but I did not inspect twenty-five hundred
sacks.  I heard rumors that flour was passing through here with my inspection-brand, and I telegraphed to the Commissioner of Indi'in Affairs,
and he said that twenty-five hundred sacks were to be inspected at' the
crossing of tlie ~[issouri River.
FORT I~ARAM1Y;, ~V. T.,
I1%d~~e.~~1~~y, 1~tgu~t 4, 1S75.
Present:lion. TROMAs C. FLLTcllER, chairniali, Prof. GEORGE W.
ATHERToN, lion. CilARLES J. FAULKNER and lion. B. W. HARRIS.
TLSTIMONY OF JULFS L('OFFEE.
By the CllMRMAN:
Que~tion. ~N~here do you live, ~Ir. Feoffee?
Answer. I an~ living three miles above the I10~l~t'(t1~ {)()~t 01~
River.
().lIow long have you bee'i in this connti-y ~
A. Twenty-oiie years. 
214
Q. llave you been at Red Cloud agency?
A. Yes, sir I have been a trader there, and bave been there sev~~ral
times since I have been dismissed.
Q. When were you trader there?
A. Two years ago, when Dr. Saville first went into office. lle (tis~~~~g~~ me; he sent me off.
Q. You have been there several times since?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. llow many times?
A. I could not tell exactly, but at least six or seven times.
Q. Were you there, do you recollect, about November, 1874?
A. I was there about that time; I could not tell you exactly the day,
but I was there in November some time.
Q. llave you knowledge of how many Indians were there at that
agency at that time?
A. Yes, sir; pretty near. I believe there was at no time at Red
Cloud agency over nine or ten thousand Indians, at the most, and pretty
near all the time many were away on tbe hunt, so that there were about
half the number left.
Q. Do you know anything about the northern Indians coming down
there about that time?
A. Yes, sir; there was a party of Minneconjomx came there about
that time, but Lone llorn went to the Spotted Tail agency with his
band.
Q. llow long were you a trader there?
A. Dr. Saville dismissed me after he was there only a few days.
Q. You had been there how long?
A. I bad been trader ever since the agency was established. I was
trader at thc old Red Cloud agency, and from there I moved up to the
new agency until Dr. Saville came in.
Q. llow many years were you at the old and new' agency together ~.
A. I was at the old agency over two years, but I was doing business
under the name of the firm of Reshaw (Richard) & Company.
Q. Were you about there some time after Dr. Saville arrived?
A. Only a few days.
Q. Then you left?
A. lle sent me away.
Q. But you went back sometimes I
A. I have been back there from six to seven or eight times since that
time.
Q. When you went back how long did you stay at a time
A. Sometimes a week and sometimes two or three days.
Q. From what you saw there, what was the character of the general
management of affairs at the agency; how were things carried on by
Dr. Saville'?
~. Well, in my opinion, very badly.
Q. Do you know anything about the issuing of cattle at that agency I
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What kind of cattle did they issue there generally?
A. Texas cattle.
Q. Were those cattle that had been wintered in this country, or were
they what are called`through Texas cattle?
A. No, sir; they migbt have been in the country five or six months,
but they were generally driven through from Texas.
Q. Have you bad any experience in the handling of cattle, so as to
know the weight of them? 
2~5
A. Yes, sir; I have beeu beef-contractor for the Goverurnei4 for supplying the troops for several years.
Q. These cattle that you saw issued at the P~ed Cloud agency, what
do you think they would average in weight ~
A. Sometimes they would issue large cattle, but very seldom; at
other times they would issue small cattle.  I saw two-year-olds issued
there, and I dou~t believe that, take them all through, they would average 4j0 pounds.  I had the contract last year, (to expire on the 1st of
July,) for supplying the troops near the Re~I Cloud and Spotted Tail
agelicies, and my cattle did not come up to that standard; they were
pretty near full-blooded American cattle.
Q. About how niuch did the cattle that you issued to the Government
average ~
A. I don't believe that they averaged over 400 pounds.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Do you mean net?
A. I mean dressed; net.
By the CllMRMAN:
Q. ~Vere these cattle that you s;i" issued to tlie Indiaiis at the Red
Cloud agency all steers or cows?
A. They were all kinds.
Q. As many of one kind as another ~.
A. As many cows as steers.
Q. ~~ere you there al~out November, 1S74 ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see any cattle issued there at that time ~
A. I may have seen them, but I do iiot remember about it; but when
I went out there I saw several issues of cattle made.
Q. Do you remember Professor Marsh; did you ever see him ~.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you meet him there ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see any cattle issued at the time he was there ~.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~~hat kiiid of cattle were tbey~
A. They were over the usual average.
Q. ~~ould those cattle you saw issued on that occasion average 1,000
pounds all round?
A. ~Vell,they might, but I don't believe they would.  They were
larger than those they generally issued.
Q. About how much will a Texas cow that has been winiered here
weigh ~
A. It would take a large and fat Texas cow to average 450 pounds
net, dressed.
Q. About what is the usual difference between the net weight and
gross weight?
A. Cattle under 600 pounds net about one-half; what I mean to say
is this, a steer or cow that will weigh 1,200 pounds gross will dress only
about 600 pounds net.
Q. When they will weigh S00 pou~~ds gross how much will they weigh
dressed?
A. About 400; just about oiie-half.
Q. And when they weigh 60 i ounds gross thev will weigl~ 300
dressed? 
216
A.No~ sir; the smaller they are the less they will net, the less meat
you will get out of them.
Q.Were you there during last winter at any time?
~.Yes, sir.
(~. What was the condition of the Indians then at the Red Cloud
~g~~cy~
A.What do you mean?
Q.Did they have plenty of clothing and plenty to eat?
A.No, sir; they had been out of meat, out of flour, out of bacon,
and out of almost everything at different times.
Q.When they were out of everything I suppose there was suffering
among them for want of food?
A.Yes, sir; I heard a report-I do not know whether it is true or
not-that some children died of starvation-but I could not swear to it
-among the Arapahoes.
Q.Do you speak the Sioux language?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Have you talked with the Sioux at the Red Cloud agency about
Dr. Saville?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.What do they say about him?
A.They say they don't like him; they want to send him off; they
want to have him sent off as soon as possible.
Q.Did they give any reason why they disliked him?
A.Yes, sir; Red Cloud himself, in the presence of General Bradley
and Professor Marsh (I went out with them at the time) told me that
he did not want him; that he was stealing their grub, stealing their
goods and everything, and the Indians did not get their just due, their
rights, from him.
Q.`~hey thought he was not a good man?
A.That is exactly what they stated, that he was not a good man.
Q.Did you ever talk with any of the other Indians beside Red Cloud?
A.0, yes; most all of them.  I talked with Young.Man-Afraid-ofhis-Horse, one of the head young men they called Sword, and I spoke
with The-One-that-Carried-the-Drum, and, in fact, all the principal men
among them, and they all made complaints, evely one of them.
Q.Did they complain that he did not give them what was due to
them?
A.They said they did not get their rights; that is what they complained about.
Q.Do you know anything of the way goods and supplies are conveyed from Cheyenne up to Red Cloud agency?
A.No, sir; I do not know anything about that.
Q.Do you know what road they travel over with these goods from
Cheyenne to Red Clotid?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Do they come this way, via Fort Laramie?
A.No, sir; they generally go by the old Red Cloud agency, thirty
miles below here; sometimes, once in a while, they come through here,
but I know the distance perfectly well on both roads.
Q.Do you know the distance from Cheyenne to Red Cloud agency
by the way they generally haul the freight ~
A.Yes, sir.
Q.How far is it?
A.Well, it is about one hundred and sixty.nine miles.
Q.How far is it from Cheyenne to Running N\~ater? 
217
A.From Cheyenne to Running Water, by the way of the old Red
Cloud agency, is about one hundred and twenty-five miles.
Q.From there to where the Fort Laramie road rnns into the old road
is about how far?
A.The Fort Laramie road don't run into that road at all.
Q.Well, from there to the Red Cloud agency, then, is about how far ~.
A.From Running Water?
Q.Yes, sir.
A.It is about forty-fonr miles.
Q.Now, maybe you could go over it a little better  but tell us in
your own way the different places that you remember along the road ~
A.This is the regular road that they travel. There is one road a little shorter, but they can't go on it with loaded teams because it is too
sandy
Q.And then you think from Cheyenne to tlie prese'it Red Cloud
agency, by the way they haul freight, is about one huiidred and sixty.
nine iniles?
A.Yes, sir; just about that; something like that to where the Red
Cloud a~ncy is now.
- Q. Were you~at the Red Cloud agency at the time the annuity goods
were issued last November?
A.I was there a couple of days.
Q.Did you examine any of the goods that were being issued to the
Indians at that time?
A.No, sir.
Q.Did not look at them particularly?
A.No, sir.
Q.When you were there were you in the camps of the Indians, or did
you talk with the Indians at all?
A.0, certainly; I always stayed near the agency; sometimes I stayed
at Camp Robinson, but mostly at the agency.
Q.Were you in any of their tepees?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Do you know what kind of flour the Indians had issued to them
then?
A.I do not know what kind of flour they had then, but before that
it was very bad.  At the time Professor ~Iarsh an~I Geiieral Bradley
were there, Red Cloud and Red Dog showed them some tobacco and
flour. The tobacco was perfectly rotten, and the flour was pretty near
as black as that stove.
Q.Did the flour seem to be spoiled?
A.I could not tell; I asked Red Cloud and Red Dog if that was a
fair specimen of what they were receiving, and they said, Yes, that was the
quality they were getting.
Q.Do you know about how many peo~~le tlie Indiaiis gcnerally put
in a lodge?
A.You mean the average?
Q.Yes, the average.
A.In the old time they used to count them five, but now, since they
don't hunt buffaloes much, they average about eight, not more than
eight all th~'ough.  In the old time they used to make their tepees out
of buffalo-sk$ns, but since then they make their teitts out of the canvas
used by the -~overument, and they make them larger tl~ai~ they used to.
Q.I belie~ e yott state~t about how matiy Iiidiaiis were at the Red
Cloud agene~ iii the beginning of November?
A.I don't believe there was there at any one tinie at tl~e ~ntside, 
218
figuring it at most, more fhan nine thousand people; and for my part,
I don't believe there weie that many, but I woJd put down that
number.
Q. Did you see the In~{ians use any of the tobacco, the same kind
of tobacco that Red Cloud and Red Dog showed you~
A. Yes, sir; I saw them throw it away.
Q. Did you see any of the flour thrown away ~
A. Not at the Red Cloud agency, but I saw them selling it at the
Red Cloud agency to the whites, to whoever would buy it, and I
bought some myself and paid one dollar and a half a sack tor it to feed
niy horses when I bad no grain.
Q. What kind of flour was that ~
A. Not very good.
Q. Good for horse-feed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You don't think it would have made good bread ~
A. No, sir.
Q. That, I understand you, was some time last fall-in October and
November ~
A. Yes, sir; I was there in the last part of Odobe~ and in November.
Q. Do you know anything about the coffee that the Indians had
there I
A. I did not see any except what Red Cloud brought in when he
showed it to'Professor      and he said that was the same kind of coffee
that was being issued to them, and what I saw was miserable stuff; but I
did not see any issued, but he said that was an average of the provisions that were issued to them.
Q. Did you bear any of the Indians complain about their blankets I
A. No, sir.
Q. N\rere you there at the time they were issuing some pork to the
Indians?
k. Yes, sir.
N\~hat kind of pork was that ~.
4. I think it was of a pretty fair quality.
Q. Professor Marsh says that the Indians cut off a part of it and
threw the rest away on the spot; do you know anything about that I
A. I don't know anything about that; I neyer saw them do that.
Q. Do Indians like pork I
A. No, sir.
Q. And when they do use it, what part of it do they use, the fat
Vart or the lean I
A. When they are right hungry they use the whole of it, but if
they have plenty of beef, they only take the fat part of the pork; they
don't like lean meat.
Q. The pork you saw, you say, was not spoiled pork, but was sweet
and good I
A. It looked to me to be good; it looked pretty fair; still the Indians
don't like pork; they would much rather have bacon than p~
By Mr. FAVi;k~ER:
Q. Mr. Ecoffee, by what process do you come to the conclusion that
the number of Indians there was 9,0001
A. By knowing the number of lodges that were there.
Q. Did it fall in your way to count the number of lodges, so as to ascertain the number of Indians there I 
219
A. I just averaged them-so many to a lodge-and we geiierally know
pretty near how many lodges there are around the agency drawing
rations. I know, of my own knowledge, that I hauled for Red Cloud
five sacks of sugar and two sacks of coffee from the old Red Cloud
agency to the new one.
Q. ~~~hat do you mean by that?
A. I mean this, that he had so mudi rations there.
Q. This was at the old Red Cloud ageilcy you speak of?
A. Yes, sir; at the time they moved.
Q. That is, they were transported from the old Red Cloud agency to
the new?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. flow long ago is it siiice the agency was removed
A. I don't know exactly when it was moved; it is about two years
ago.
By Mr. ATllERTO~:
Q. ~Vas it before or after Dr. Saville was al)pointed agent?
A. 0,yes, it was before Dr. Saville came there; tl~ey issued them at
different times more rations than they were entitled to, in order to get
the good-will of the chiefs.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Did you say to get their good-will?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. ATllERTON:
Q. Do you mean certain chiefs ~
A. Yes, sir; to get the good-will of the chief, the poor women and
children having to suffer for it.
By ~Ir. FAULKNER:
Q. Did you see some ouc.year-old cattle issued to the Indians?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At what fime?'
A. Right along for the last two years.
Q. ~~hat proportion did they bear to the general herd?
A. I co~ld not tell exactly; I did iiot count them.
Q. Could you not form an idea as to whether they constituted a very
small proportion of it or not ~
A. It was a small proportion.
Q. ~Vas it a very small proportion?'
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You spoke of having a contract yourself. ~~hat was that contract
for?
A. I had a contract to furnish the troops at Camp Sheridan and Camp
Robinson, near the Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies, respectively,
with beef.
Q. In fulfillment of that contract, were you allowed to deliver cattle
which netted 400 polluds?
A. ~1y cattle did not average that; about three-fourths of them were
American cattle; they wereofiiiixed blood; buti can bring you some statements from my butchers out there of the number of cattle they killed
last month, a'id what they averaged; I suppose I have that statement at
home.
Q. You spoke of having observed aii issue of cattle there iii the fall
of 1874, which, in your judgment, averaged a thousaiid pounds gross on
the hoof? 
220
A. I said this: that when Professor Marsh was there, the cattle that
issued at that time were a little larger than the us~al average.
Q. But you thought they would average about a thousand pounds'.
A. No, sir.
Q. Then what do you mean by the expression that you thought they
would average about a thousand ~
A. Well, don't you make a mistake about that; I said I did not believe they would average about a thousand.
By Mr. FAULKNEU:
Q. Would they have averaged 850 pounds'.
A. I told you what I thought about it.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. Can't you state to the commission why you don~t want to answer
that question ~
A. I don't feel like answering it; I will give you all the information
I can Q. Is it because you don't know, or because you have some interest
with somebody else, that you don't like to answer ~.
A. I have not any interest with anybody else.
Q. Do you say you do not know ~
A. I do not sayldo not kn ow; I did not say that either.
Q. Do you say you do know?
A. I do not say anything, further than that I don't believe they
would average a thousand pounds.
Q. Do you know they would not average a thousand pounds I
A. I do not say that either; I say I do not believe they would average that weight, and I will give you my word of honor as a gentleman
that I have no interest one way or the other, but I do not like to all.
swer that question, because I may be wrong about it; I will get up and
swear to what I say; if there is anybody here who will swear me, I will
swear to what statements I make.
Mr. FAULKNER. It is a mere matter of opinion, and if yon have any
doubt about the accuracy of your judgment of the weight of cattle, yon
are justified in withholding it.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Why do you say they would average about a thousand pounds I
Why don't you say they would have averaged 800 or 1,200; what leads
you to fix the figures at a thousand I The query in my mind is why
you fix upon that particular figure I
A. In round numbers I would say they would not average a thousand,
but I could not give any particular figures.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. Do you think they would average nine hundred I
A. I do not say anything more than what I told you.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. You stated, Mr. Eco~ee, that in conversation with Red Dog and
Red Cloud, and several other Indians, th~y complained of their agent I
A. Yes,sir.
Q. Are you sufficiently acquainted with the Indian cbaracter and
Indian habits to enable you to state whether or not, as a matter of habit,
they are given to making complaints?
A. Yes, sir, I am. They generally make complaints about their agent,
but at the same time their complaints were a great deal worse against 
22~
Dr. Saville than against any other agent; but they are generally in the
habit of complaining; it is their character.
Q. ~Vell, did they specify to you the particfli'~r grounds upon which
they complained of Dr. Saville'.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you please state them?
A. They said that Dr. Saville was stealing their g~~ods and stealinotheir clothing.
Q. You spoke of a kind of flour being sold there at one time.   Will
you state the kind?
A. I say that I bonght about two sacks myself, and paid a dollar and
a half for it.
Q. But you spoke about a large quantity being sold.  I nnderstood
you to say so.  Perhaps I did not hear you distinetly, but I thought you
said upward of a hundred sacks were sold.
A. I did not say that.
Q. Do you know of any more being sold than what you botight ~
A. There is lots of it being sold that I know of.
Q. To whom was it sold?
A. Sold to the Indians.  I only know that I bought a couple of sacks
for horse-f~ed.
Q. Then it was sold promiscuously, to anybody that would buy it q
A. Yes, sir.  Most any white men who had married squaws could
buy all they wanted.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Are there a good many squaw-men about there ~
A. Yes, sir.  At the Red Cloud agency there are about fifty or seventyfive.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Can you say whether any of tbat flour was sold to tlie freighters I
A. No, sir; I do not know.  I could not tell you that.  I do not know
anything about that`.
By Mr. HARRiS:
Q. Where were you born.
A. In Switzerland.
Q. And where were you educated?
A. I was educated at a place called Freibnrg, in Switzerland.
Q. At a college there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And graduated?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you been ii~ this country?
A. Twenty-two years.
Q. And have you speiit niost of your life in this neighborhood #.
A. About twenty-one years.
Q. Have you dealt in cattle'.
A. Yes sir.
Q. Raised cattle'.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many cattle have vou ever owned at aliy ont time.
A. That is a hard question to answer  over a thousa'id, howevcr.
Q. Do you own any now?
A. I have only about three hundred or four hundred qow.
~~. Are you accustomed to sell cattle by wei~ht? 
222
A.It is no use to go around-you can't get me on that. I furnished
cattle at this military post ill 1866 that averaged 800 pounds net, but
they were blooded cattle.
Q.Do you know something about the Te~as cattle called through
cattle ~
A.Yes, sir; I do.
Q.Can you judge, from your experience, how much Texas through
cattle-oxen, I mean-will weigh by September or October, on the average; good, first-class cattle ~
A.They will weigh over a thousand pounds, if they are fat cattle.
Q.Suppose they are Texas through cattle, driven from Texas the
same year; take cattle driven from Texas this spring; would you expect
that by next September or October they would average a thousand
pounds ~.
A.I cannot answer that, because I do not want to say.
Q.Do you believe you could get any such cattle ~
(No answer.)
(Question repeated.)
A.I do not want to answer.
Q.Do you say you cannot answer that question or that you do not
want to answer it, which?
A.I say I do not want to answer it.
Q.But you have an opinion?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Now, what is the weight of a good cow?
A.That is another question I don't want to answer.
Q.Take a cow five years old, and a fat Texas cow, if you please.
A.If you tai~e a fat American cow of five years old, or four years old,
it will dress ~bout 550 or 600 pounds, that is, I mean an American cow.
Q.N\That would such a Texas cow weigh? That is what I want to
get at.
A.A Texas cow will not dress as much as an American cow.
Q.Now, Mr. Ecofi~ce, we called you because we supposed you had a
large experience here.  N\~e understand you speak six or seven languages.
We have called you here because we supposed you could give us better
information than anybody else about here; we have not called you to
ask you questions under oath, because we supposed that no oath would
add anything to the weight of your testimony  A.Excuse me for interrupting you, but I would like to swear to my
testimony.  I am willing to swear to every word I say.
Q.Are you willing to tell the commission all you kuow~
A.No; I could not say that either.
Q.Passing to another subj~ct: You say you saw rotten tobacco ~.
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Did you see it in the hands of the Indians or in the hands of the
agent?
A.I saw the Indians throw away tobacco, and I saw them selling it
to soldiers for whatever they would give them for it; and I saw rotten
tobacco in the hands of Proressor Marsh when he was out there.
Q.You say you saw the agent giving it to the Indians?
A - No- Idid not say that. This Indian tobacco is the only kind they
have out there, and I saw Indians buy tobacco from the traders there;
that is, natural leaf.  The tobacco they had was darker; it was old
stuff.
Q.You say it was rotten?
A.Yes, sir. 
2'23
Q. Describe it fully, so as we can get an idea of its condition?
A. They were plugs, probably betweeu 12 and 14 iiiches long, and
about 4 or ~ iijches wide, and the tobacco was rotten; it was not fit to
use to smoke or chew, or anything.
Q. ~Vas it wet or moist?
A. It 110U5t have been; it was very soft. You caii tell rotten t&~bacco
by the smell.
Q Di(l you use any of it ~
A. I do not use tobacco, except cigars.
Q. You saw them buying some kind of tobacco from the trader ~
A. Yes, sir, twenty times.
Q. ~~hat kind of tobacco does the trader sell them ~
A. That is bright yellow tobacco-natural leaf.
Q. You saw none of this black tobacco sold by the traders ~
A. No, sir; they do not get it. I have been iii every place where
they were selling goods there, and I (lid not see any of that kind of
tobacco at all.
Q. You saw that tobacco which Professor Marsh had?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see Red Cloud give it to him ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you keep a sample of it ~
A. I was present in General Bradley's tent when Red Cloud and Red
Dog came there, and when they brou~ht that tol~acco, and gave it to
them, and I took the tobacco m my hands, and General Bradley was
present.
Q. You s~y you saw bad flour last year ~
A. Yes, sir.
A. Now, tell me where you saw it I
A I saw lots of it in the house of an interpreter we have there; his
name is Joseph Bissonett; he is dead now.
Q. Describe the condition of that flour as you saw it, so that we can
understand it.
A. It was all in lumps, and it was dark in color.
Q. Flour that had soured I
A. I do not know if it was sour or not; I did not get any bread made
out of it it was iu lumps.
Q. Do you know whether it had the Indian Department brand on it q
A. That I could not tell; I do not know. I know one thing, that a
great deal of flour went there that was not branded by the insl)ector.
Q. Row do you know that ~
A. Because I saw it.
Q. You s~tw it, where I
A. At the Red Cloud agency.
Q. in the building there I
A. Yes, sir; when they were issuing it I saw it outside.
Q. You saw it as it came out of the store-house?
4 Yes, sir.
Q. i)id vou, at ally time, taste of bread made out o~ that flour?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you mean you tasted t~ie bad flour I
A. Yes sir; it was bad flour; it made the bread yellow, just about
the color of that door.
By ~Ir. FAULRN~P~:
Q. Can you fix the time tl~at this bad flour was there?
A. Since I have been to the R~~d Cloud agency, for tlie last two years 
224
and a lia'f, they never bad one hundred sacks of good flour; all the flour
has beeii bad right along for the last two years.
ByMr. llARRIS:
(~.IIo~~-lately have you been there?
~. N\~h~re? At P~ed Cloud?
().Yes.
A. About three weeks ago.
Q. Did you see the flour they had there then?
A. No; I did i~ot go bnt very little around the agency; I went to the
military post above it.
Q. Has ~Ir. Bosler ever got any cattle fro~n you-J. ~V. Bosler'.
A. I know him: yes, sir.
(~.ITow long ago ~
A. That I could not remember exactly, but we sold him some cattle
at one time.
Q. N\~ithiu two years?
A. I do not remember the time at all; I can tell you by looking over
the books.
Q. Can you tell the number?
A. It was only a small number.
Q. ~Vas it at the old agency or the new?
A. That is another thing I cannot remember. I can tell you to-morrow
if von will be here.
Q. Can you tell me, then, what kind the cattle were ~
k Yes, sir.
Q. And how mnch they weighed?
A. They were not Texas cattle; they weighed probably about in the
neighborl~ood of five hnndred pounds or a little over.
By Mr. FA~~LKN~R:
Q. Do you ii~ean dressed-net?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know where they were sent I
~. No, sir.
Mr. Ecoffee, you speak of the Indians complaining of the agent
stealing their food and clothing?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you any personal knowledge of any act by the agent that
would subject him to that charge of stealing or depriving the Indians
of what was justly due them?
A. I cannot tell that, because if there has been any supplies stolen
they have to be stolen before it comes to the agency; it has been done
either where it comes from or in Cheyenne, where it is shipped from; at
the agency the agent has no chance in the world to sell any grub to any
one.
Q. Then you think there could be no act of stealing by the agent at
his agency
A. No, sir; i'ot of grub.
Q. I mean of grub or clothing ~
A. As to clothing I do not know, but ts to grub he coul~l iiot very
well do it.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. N\~hat means have they at the agency for detern~iiiii~g accuiaely
the amount of beef that is delivered there?
A. None at all, except 
225
Q. Could you not undertake to cheat the agent in the delivery of
cattle if you wanted to bid for the contract?
A. No, sir; I don't want it.
Q. Is there anything to prevent the agent receiviug cattle that are
under weight?
A. I would like to know what would prevent it. There is nothing
in the world. They take a drove of cattle in there aiid they can take
one big one and average the rest by it; they gelierally weigh five or
six, as many as they can put on the scale, (they have a Fairbaiiks scale;)
they can put in the biggest and weigh them, and average the whole
number by them.
Q. llave you ever seen cattle weighed?
A. No, sir; they would not allow me tog~o neai' the scales.
Q. When were you refused such permissioii?
A. About a couple of months ago.
Q. Did they tell you so?
A. They said they did not want anybody to go dowii there.
Q. Did you ask to go down?
A. No, sir.
Q. ~~o told you that?
A. No one.
Q. Who said it?
A. The men who were herding the cattle.
Q. Who were they?
A. I do not know their names; the employc's of the agency.
Q. Do you know Mr~ Appleton?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was be there?
A. No, sir; I do not know that he was.
Q. Were either of the Boslers there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see the cattle turned out to the Indians, after they had
been weighed?
~. No, sir.
So you really don't know anything about it at the time you spoke
of; two months ago?
(No answer.
Q. Have you at any time during two years seen cattle weighed at
Red Cloud agency?
A. No, sir.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Does your experience enable you to sng~e~t any possible check
that could be used at the agency so as to prevent ai)y abu~e in its management?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Let us hear what your suggestions would be?
A. The suggestion would be ~u~~ to turn the "hole thing over to the
War Departme~~, letting the officers issue tlie r'~ti~~n~, ai~d have an
officer for agent that will do the Iiidians justice.  The Indians them selves vish to have an o[Iicer of the Army for agent; I heard them say
so a hundred times.
Q. Bow much do you get per pound for beef furni~hed to the Army
on the )lock here?
A. ~~ hen I furnished beef for the Army, at the military posts near
1  1 P 
226
Red Cloud an~l Spott~d Tail agencies, up to the 1st of July, 1875, 1 had
(;).`~ ce~its l)er poniid net.
Q. ~Yiiat sized cattle were you ~tjljged to furnisl1 nn~ier that contract ~
A. Cattle that would wei~h ove' 500 pounds l0Ot.
~? If you failed to supply tha  kind of beef, what was tlie result
what happened to you ~
A. They could break up n0y coni ract; but I fl~rnislied very good beef,
yet I fi~rnished a great many cattle that did not weigh that much.
Q. Is it all inspected by an Army officer after you turn it in ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Suppose it is rejected?
A. Some of it has been rejected.
Q. ~Vhat is done in that case ~
A. I have to furnish some other in place of it.
Q. Have you not to pay what the Army officer may have to pay for
beef to take its place, if he steps out aiid supplies it himself?
A. If they condemn my beef, and get some other beef, I have to pay
whatever they pay for it; it does not make any differ(~nce what U~e price
is; if they pay 50 cents a pound I have to pay it; they take it out of
what is coming to me on the contract.
By Mr. ATllLRTON:
Q. But they may allow you to make it up ~
A. Yes sir.
By the CllMnMAN:
Q. You say that up at the Red Clou~ agency,~t the time they were
about to weigh some beef, some one t~ld you they did not want you
there?
A. Two or three of the employ(s of the agency said so.
Q. You started to go down ~
A. They stopped me, and I know several others whom tl~ey stopped
from going down.
Q. They told you.they did not want you out there?
k Yes, sir.
By the CilAIRMAN:
Q. How long ago is that ~
A. About a couple of mouths.
By Mr. FAULkNER:
Q. You spoke of the time, Mr. Feoffee, when they were out of meat,
flour, and almost eve~vthing needed to feed the Indians?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you state who was responsible as far as your observation exten~Ied for that condition of things; were there supplies at the agency,
and could they hivO been supplied, or had n~~t they been brought there,
so as to enable the agei)t to distribute them?
A. It is either the agent or the contractor for freightii~g, the men who
contract to take the goods out there.
Q. I know it was one or the other, but I ask you, if your knowledge,
and experience, and observation enable you to determine who has failed
to do so; iii other words. were the goods on band there and not distributed, or was tl~e agelit without the goods and without tlie provisions
to issue ~
A. N\~ell if there has been any fraud about selling goods, that is selling
the rations, it must be with the agent, but at the same time the con 
227
tractor, the man who took the contract to carry the freight from Cheyenne,
to Red Clond agency or Spotted Tail ageiic~~, may have ftiled -
Q.I am not asking yon your theories, I am &(sijjng you for facts; are
vou enabled to state from your own knowledo~e whether the agent had
them there and would not distribute theiii, or whether he (lid not have
them there, because of the negligence of tlie contractor for transportation
to have them there?
A.I do not think he did.
(? Then it was the fault of the contractor of transportation ~
A.Either the contractor or soiiiel~ody else, but not the farilt of the
agent.
By Mr. ATRERTON:
Q.You spoke of remaining at the agenQv as trader only three or four
days after Dr. Saville came there  have you any oljectioiis to tell us
tlie circumstances of your leaving?
A.No, sir; I was out there, and I had some whisky with nie; I bad
about half a gallon, and Dr. Saville had some whisky at the same
time; I drank some in his own tent, and some Indian got mad at me and
took my whisky o'~t of my wagoil; I had it wral)ped up in a blanket;
some one tol(l him I had it there; I had just about half a gallon, and
the Indian told me to leave. After I got about ~ix or seven niiles away
there were three or four hundred of them charged oil me. I was in the
wagon, and they wanted me to go back and give them $3 for hides. At
that tilne I was paying only $2 for their beef-hides, arid I would not pay
them $3, so they told me to go on, to leave the country, and I went. I
made three different affidavits about beef when I was in Washington,
but they paid no attention to them. Myself and this interpreter I spoke
of~oseph Bissonett-who is dead, and Thomas Reed, made affidavits
wben we were iii Washington about Dr. Saville's way of doing business,
arid the Interior Department never took any notice of them.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. N'hen was this?
A. The last time I went with Red Cloud; not this last time-that is the
time when I went East with General Smith, with the Cheyeniies and
Arapahoes.
Q. And then you say the affidavits were made about Dr. Saville arid
his doings?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you gave them to the Corn missioner of Indian Affrirs?
A. ~~e gave them to Colonel Walker.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.lie was then Commissioner of ludian Aiftirs?
A.No; he was then with the Christian Commission; he i~ the man
who got shot iii the eye.
By Mr. ATllERTON:
Q. What did you do with your goons when you were leaving Red
Cloud agency?
A. I sold them.
Q. Did you go away without triy order fr~ ii Dr. S~tville?
A. No, sir; Dr. Saville ordered ne away.
Q. You said the Indians ordered you away.
A. Yes, sir; the Indians iii the first place; and the Doctor broke my
license and appointed somebody else iii my place. 
228
Q. ~V'hat have been your relations with Dr. Saville s:nce then?
A. Not very friendly.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Who did Dr. Saville appoint there after you were removed?
A. Mr. Deer, whom I had for a clerk, was appoint(~d; but the first
man appointed Was another man-a man from Sioux City; I cannot
remember his name, and he sold out to Frank Yates.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
-Q.Do you thiuk your judgment is influenced by your unfriendly feeling toward Dr. Saville?
A. Well, it may be a little, you know, not being friendly together;
but I have said nothing more than what is true, and I will swear to it.
Q. You mean to say that your unfriendly feeling toward Dr. Saville
don't influence your judgment about the facts?
A. 0, no, sir; not about the facts.
TESTIMONY OF llIRAM B. KELLEY.
By the CiiATRMAN:
Question. llow long have you resided in this section of the country,
Mr. Kelley?
Answer. About fifteen or sixteen years.
Q. What has been your business chiefly?
A. I am a freighter and stock-raiser.
Q. N\-~hat is your present business?
A. My present business is raising cattle.  I have a ranch on the
Chugg.
Q. Are you pretty familiar with the different kinds of cattle that they
have in this section of the country?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, now, have you some experience with reference to Texas
cattle?
A. Yes, sir; some.
Q. Have you had any contracts for supplying the Government, either
the military or the Indian department, with cattle?
A. I had a contract for two or three years. This is the third year I
have been furnishing beef for the military at this post.
Q. Do you turnish that beef net weight or gross weight?
A. Either one; I have a contract either way.
Q. Well, yon furnished beef on foot when the military authorities here
reqnire it to take with them on any expeditions?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How do you arrive at the weight of the beef you furnish on such
occasions?
A. We either put them on the scales or take a few of the average out
of a herd and weigh them.
(?.Have you ever furnished in that way any Texas cattle?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What kind of Texas cattle were they, steers?
A. Yes, sir; steers.
Q. Were there any cows among them?
A. Well, I h~ve given a few cows - on the block, but never 011 tlie
hoof. 
229
Q. N\~ll, the Texas cattle yon furnished on the hoof, about what did
they average in weight?
A. ~Tdl, I have given an aver~ge of 577 l)oui0ds for 1~G he.~d, and I
think was a little light.  I think the ~verage would 11 ave been about
600 net weight.
Q. That is the average of those you sold on foot; how di(I yon get at
the weight of those you sold on the block ~
A. ~~e killed three and weighed them on tlie scales after they were
dressed, and averaged them.
Q. Asteer that will weigh 577 pouiids or 600 pourids~i~et, what will it
weigh gross ~
A. About l,200pounds.
Q. A Texas steer that will weigh 1,200 pounds will be about how old ~
A. ~Vell, sir, three-year olds or four-year olds might weigh tli;it amouiit.
Q. Those Texas cattle that will weigh that iiiucli have beeii wintered
here, ii ave they?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Stayed here over one wiiiter?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Rave you seen the droves of Texas cattlc that come ~l) ii crc, what
you call in this country, among the drovers, through cattle?
A. Yes, sir; I have seen them.
Q. ~~ill they average as much, either gross or net, as cattle that have
been wintered over here and have been one summer oi~ the bunch-grass
in this country?
A. Some of them that come up here very early and are put on a fair
range and get in fair order before the fall, would average that much.
~~hen they get up here early in July or August, they have three or four
months of fine weather and good grass on which to fatten.
Q. They continue to fatten until how late in the fall ~
A. Until after Chnstmas, and some of them fatten right through the
winter.
Q. These Texas cattle that are brought up iiito this railge improve
very much, I understand; they spread out, grow larger aiid heavier,
and get fat?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know anything of the character of the beef that has been
furnished to the Red Cloud agency?
A. I do not, sir; that is something that I i~now less abont than any
man in the country.  I know what I have heard.  I never was at the Red
Cloud agency.
Q. Cattle that you flirnish to the military department generally are
not full-blood Texas cattle, are they ~
A. Generally, sir.  I raise some half-breed so
Texas cattle.,  me American, aiid some
Q. The Texas cattle that you furnish to the Army have been kept over
here one winter I
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Can you state whether the I)ercentage of iiet to gross varies according to the condition of the cattle-whether they are fit or lean?
A. 0, yes, it makes Some differe~jce if they are ~ery fLt; of (~oiirse,
they don't tare as much; there is not so much loss ~~ the oflal; there is
less percentage off.
Q. In this part of the coniltry you seeni to ha~-e e~tablished a ni~iforni 
2~O
rule of percentage at 5() per cei~t.; whereas in oiir cunutry it is different.
Ilow is it that you have e~qablished suet' a rule?
A. In your part of the country I suppose you have fatter cattle-stallfed cattle; and the percentage is not so much-oiily 40 or 45 per cent.
By the C~M~~AN:
Q. But in Texas cattle the percentage is larger oil account of their
large horns and hoofs?
A. Yes, sir; and they are smaller, and they don~t fat tell up early.
Q. And the perceiitage is less upon a large fat beeve than u poii one of
those poor ones?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~Vhat ~~hould von judge to be the average weight of tlie smaller
Texas cattle?
A. About 50 per cent.
Q. ~Yhat is the average gross weight of an average her~l of Texas
cattle as they are driven up here, including steers and cows?
A. They are of different ages, you know.
Q. I mean as they run, four-year-old steers aiid cows?
A. A good lot of four-year-old steers and cows ought to go from 90~)
to 1,000 pounds.
Q. NVhat are you getting for your beef on the block here?
A. Six dollars and thirty-four cents per 100 pounds.
Q. ~Vhat is beef generally worth on the foot here; cattle that will
average 1,000 pounds ~
A. They generally sell at about 3 cents per pound, gross.  ~Vhen you
buy them by the lot, you buy them for less; when you buy four or five
hundred head, you get them for less than that.
T%STIMONY OF LILUT. LLONAP~D HAY.
By the CllAiRMAN: -
Question. ~Ir. flay, what is your raiik and position?
Answer. I ~m first lieutenant and adjutant of the Niiith Iiif~iiiti'v.
Q. I believe you were at P~ed Cloud agency November last?
A. Yes, ~ir; I was there about the first week iu November, about the
10th or 11th of tlie month.
Q. N\~ere you present at (`ill iiiterview tliat occurred t~etweeii Professor
~Iarsh and i~ed Cloud and P~ed Doo- about that time?
A. Yes, sir.  I was not at the whole of the iiitervicw, but I ~~`as there
a portion`of tlie time.
Q. ~Vhile you were there did you have aiiy opportunity to examine,
or did you notice the qi~ality of, the rations that were issued to thc
Indians?
A. The interview took place in General Bradley's tent, between Professor ~Iarsh, P~ed Cloud, and i~ed Dog.  I~ed Cloud and P~ed ~)og had
a portion of the rations, certain component parts of the rations, which
they said they had received ~`rom the agent.' au~t those I saw.  I saw two
samples, a sample of coffee and a sample of tobacco.  Those were all I
saw.
Q. Did you see any of the issues of rations by the agents to the
Indians?
A. I did iiot, sir.  I did not go to the agency at all. 
231
Q. Did yon see any rations in the hands of the Indians ~
A. I saw tobacco in the hands of Red Cloud; I 5'~~ the coffee which
he had in his hand, and which he passed over to Professor M~rsh, and
it was passed around to the officers and the others iii the tC!0t.
Q. Did you see any others besides t}ie s'~m~~tes that Red Cloud had;
did you see any other of those provisions iii the hands of the other
Indians ~
A. No, sir.
Q. ~~hat was the character of the sami)les of coffee and tobacco which
you saw there?
A. The tobacco I noticed particularly, for tlie reason that I know
more about tobacco when it is prepared for consumptioi~ than I do
about coffee in the raw grain.  This tobacco which I saw seemed to be
about one-quarter plug-tobacco, and it had neither the sme}l nor taste
of good tobacco.  It seemed to be composed of the sweepings of the
factory, which were fastened together by some sort of viscid substance.
It was sticky, clammy, and soft; it was unfit for chewing or smok~ng, particularly unfit for smoking.  This sample of tobacco was passed around,
and Red Cloud had it in his hand. ~N~hen he passed the plug I bent it,
and it showed no fracture, it was so soft.  This was iii cold weather,
even in that dry climate.  The coffee which I saw was quite a small
portion-about as much as one might hold in the hollow of his band.
It seemed to be coin posed of undeveloped grains of coffee with a little
gravel in it; they were not full-grown grains of coffee.
Q. Did you see any beef-cattle that were issued there during that
fall?
1A.  Yes, sir; in the afternoon of the same day-I think it was the 11th
of November-I was tol'l that a party was going out to see the butcher's
shop, and I did not know for what i~urpose they were going. I did not
expect to criticise these things at all, because I did not think there was
any investigation going on whatever.  I was invited to go, and accepted
the invitation. ~Ve finally found the butcher's shop, and it was kept by an
old Indian living there-a half-breed-and it was a long time before
they got up the herd. ~~e were told that all the herd was composed of
seven head, the remainder of the herd.  It was a half-breed Frenchman
who drove them up; he told us those were all there were.
(~.N\~as Agent Saville there at the time?
A. No, sir; there were two herders there.  Red Cloud and Red Dog,
and another Indian, whose name I don't know, were present.  The
herder brought these cattle froni the direction of the agency; I don~t
know where lie got them.  The snow was on the grouiid aiid the weather
very cold.  I did not examine very closely into them, oiily I noticed
the cattle.
(~.A poor looking lot of cattle, were they?
A. There were seven head of cattle there, aiid there were two cows
out of seven.  There was oiily one which might be called a steer, but it
was not full grown at all, aiid tlie others were undersized and meaget
in flesh; they were Texas cattl~.
Q. Poor?
A. Yes, sir; a very poor lot of cattle.  Tiie herder was a half-breed
Frenchman, and he said tlie Indiaiis ha~l picked out the best.  Red
Uloud said that those were tlie kiiid of cattle issued to them  ordinarily.
U~ed Dog said that they were larger and better cattle tli~iii liad been
ssued to them previously on ordinary issue days.  One of the herders
;aid that they were all the same size as tlie cattle or~1iiiarily issued.
r~l1C other herder said th~t the Indiaiis hid picked out the best, and
t~iese were the refuse. 
232
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. Do you understaiid that tber~ bad been a lar~cr issue 011 that day ~.
A. I do not know anythiiig about an issue at all.
By the CH~IRMAN:
Q. Those cattle were driven up frjm toward the agency to the Indian
camp?
A. My infereiice was that there had been an issue of cattle, and these
had been left-the other seven head on han~l; in fact, the herder said
there were only seven head of cattle on hand on that date., the 11th of
Novem her.
Q. ~Vere thos~ lier~lers the agency~herders; were they herding cattle
for the Inliaii a~eit or for the Indians?
A. I canliot state positively; I suppose U~ey were tlie ageuCs herders.
Q. J)id you see the agent, Dr. Savilie, there during that visit`~
A. No, sir, I di(l iiot; some of the other officers went up to the agency,
but I did not. There was an issue of annuity-goods, I think, about that
time, and I was invited to go to see it, but I did not go.
Q. ~Vell, Geiieral Bradley, Captain ~Iix, an d yourself were there. Do
yoii remember the circumstances of your making an estimate of the gross
weight of those cattle?
A. Yes sir; illy estimate was 450 pounds gross, just as they stood.
The estiiiiate of the other gentlemen was small, and the total added up
and divided by tl~e number was, I thiiik, sonie ASS pounds gross.
By ~Ir. FAULKNLR:
Q. You are speaking now of tlie seven head?
A. Yes, sir.
By ~Ir. HARRIS:
Q. N\~e have the date of that occurrence; it is the 11th of November.
A. Yes, sir.
By the CRAIRMAN:
Q. Have you had any opportunity of observiiig the working of the
system of issuing rations to the Indians by the agents and the manage.
ment of affairs at Indian agencies generally?
A. No, sir; I had no opportunities of observing; I have been by the
agenQy three times, but stayed only a very short time; in fact, I only
stayed there a couple of days either of the times when I was there; I
only passed through. The first time I went up with General I~in~ I
saw a large herd of cattle, that seeine~l to be in tlie hands of tlie coiitractor, ai~d appeared to he going to the agelicy to be delivered to the
agent. Those are the only two lots of cattle I ever saw there.
Q. ~Vhat kind of cattle were those with reference to their size?
A. It was quite a large herd, prob~ibly`~OO, more or less; they were
Texas cattle; I had a good opportuiiity ot judgiiig of them, because they
were in a cai~on, aiid we drove right through them, and I noticed then~
particularly; they were Texas cattle.
Q. Steers or cows
A. Mostly steers; I may have noticed a few cows among them, but
they were very few; most of them were Texas steers.
Q. N\~hat was their general conditioii and size
A. They were in good coii~lition, but they were were rather sin all. I
shouldjudge that the herd-i have no experience-but, as iiear as I could
judge, I don~t think- they would have weighed over 650 pounds apiece,
~ross weight. 
233
Q.To average the herd?
A.I think they would average fully that.
Q.You are not positive that they were for tlie agency, however?
A.No sir; it is ouly a supposition  they could have been inteiided
for no one else; they were goifig right up to tlie agency: they were
within three or four miles of the post then.
B~' Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.Do you remember what day that was, lieutenant?
A.Yes, sir; it was about the 1st or ~d of Septc'iibcr, 1S74.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.How long have you been stationed here
A.I have been stationed here a year, sii~.
Q.Do you know Jules Ecoffee ~
A.Yes, sir.
Q.~~hat kind of a man is he?
A.I have always regarded hini as a trtitlifiil man.
(~. Is that the general reputation he lt(15 in tlie conin~'in~ty?
A.Yes, sir.  Some inquiries w~re made as to his character by General
Riiig when he first came here and took commaijd of the l)OSt.  General
I&ing was trying to find and fix upon a new site for the S[)otted Tail
agency, and Jules Ecoffee gave him some advice, and I reniember that
he was regarded as a truthtul man.
Q.Do you know a man by the name of Louis Reshaw?
A.I have seen him three times. I have sceil hiin around the post
here three times.
Q.Have you ever heard hiin spoken of by the people around here who
know him?
A.Yes, sir; as a sober and truthful man.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.If you have any information in ~egard to these Indian matters that
we do not happen to call out by inquifles, we would be glad to have you
give it to us.
A.No, sir; I have not.  I know very little about the maiiage~nent of
Indian affairs, because I have had no opportuiiity of judging of facts,
and so far as rumors go I pay no attention to them.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.~Vhen you were speakii~g of those two herders, you said one of them
said that that little drove of seven cattle was quite up to tlie average,
while the other differed from him. I wish to ask you whether that
remark of the herder was made iii response to 1~ed Dog's statcmeiit, that
they were smaller than they were generally getting, and as a sort of a
justification?
A.The first herder who drove up this little band of cattle was on his
horse, and the momeht he got them together he said, "The Indians pick
out the best, they always leave the worst," without being questioiied or
interrogated at all, and one of tlie party asked I~ed Cloud a'id j~~ed D~g
and the other herder, and the other herder made his statettient iii
answer to a question.
Q.Did he say that before or after Red Dog sl)oke?
A.He said it afterwards: he was the la~t one who was qiicstioiicd,
but I don't think he heard Red Dog~s rein ark.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.Neither of the herders heard what tlie Indians said?
A.No, sir. 
234
~y ~Ir. HAiRIS:
(~. One of thell) said,  fhis is the kiiid ot e~ttle ~ve art issuing," or
words to that effect
A.  He was asked if tlie~e were the kind of cattle usually issued by
the n~ent, and he said,  ~bout tlie sarne kind of cattle.
Q.  Tiie other remarked that the Indians ha~l picked tiie ~est?
A.  He volnuteered that rein ark as soon as he drove them up.
By the CllAiRMAN:
Q.  And then the last herder who was interrogated said A.  lIe said they were up to the geiieral average.
By ~Ir. HAPPIS:
Q.  You (loi~~t ki~ow tlie names of those herders, do you
A.  N(), sir.
TBSTIMONY ()F DR. BENJAMIN (4. McPHAIL.
By the CilAIRMAN:
Question. Doctor, what is your position here ~
Answer. I am acting assistant surgeon at this post.
Q.  I wish to ask you, from your observation, your opinion of the average weight of an ordinary herd of Texas cattle?
A.  Tam not an expert at allin estimating theweight of cattle: Inever
paid n~ucli attention to tiie subject until I went to Arizoiia, and there
my attention was directed to it by the constant talk about the issue of
beef to tlie Iiidians.  Beef for the Army was suppli~d by the pound net,
and of course there was no trouble about that.  At the San Carlos Indian reservation, in Anzona, I have seen them issue cattle for ten,
eleven, twelve, and even thirteen hundred pouiids that I suppose would
really rai~ge from six to eight hundred pounds; maybe aii extra large
one would go up to nine hundred or one thousand, but to average tlieni
through they would not weigh any more than six hundred or eight hundred l)onnds.
Q.  Have you seen herds of Texas cattle in this section of tl)e country
A.  No, sir  excq~t when passilig along the road I saw two or three
herds along the line of the railroad; they seemed to be niixed cattle,
but I never saw any of then~ weighed.
Q.  How would the Texas cattle you have seen up here iii this part of
the coulitry compare with the cattle you saw dowii there iii Arizoiia ~
A.  NVell, sir, they seeu~e~l to be a similar class of stock - but those
down there were in better condition thaii those I have seen here; there
I saw them iii the sprilig of the year, aiid here late in the summer or
early in the fall.
Q.  I understand that you have ~iever seen any cattle up here intended
for issue to the Iiidiai~s?
A.  No, sir; I know n otiiing of them iii this part of the country except
by report.
By Mr. ATRERTON:
Q.  But those you have spoken of seei,~g were intended for tlie Iji~lians?
A.  Yes, sir, in Arizoiia on the two Iiidian reservatioi~s which I visited.
(?. ~Vere these that you speak of as beiiig issued to the tiidians Texas
cattle?
A.  Yes, sir; they seemed to tue to be so.  I tell you, gentlemen, I do 
235
not consider inyseif as an authority on cattle at all; in the course of
ejuversation a few evenings since, I just gave`fly opinion on the matter.
Q.~Vhat is your estimate of the average wei~ht of tlie Texas cattle
you have seen, taking tbem right tlirotigh, herd by herd ~
A.Seeing them there in the sprilig of the year, as I did, I do not think
they would run over 700 pounds, taking tlLerll all through, cows ai~d
bulls together.  ~f you should I)ick out the btills, occasionally there
would be one of them which would weigh 1,000 or 1,200 pounds.
ForT LARAMIE, ~~. T.,
T11?~?sd(~y, [ugust 5, 1575.
Present: llon. TlloMAs C'. FLLTc,llEP, chairmai~ TIon. CItARLi~S J.
FAULKNLP, llon. B. NV. llARRts, and Prof. GEo1~GE NV. ATllERToN.
TESTIMONY OF GL'NEP~AL L. P. BP~ADLEY.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. General, what is your rai~k ai~d position here?
Answer. I am lieutenaiit-colonel of the Niiitli Iiifiiitry, and at present
in command of the fort.
Q.llow long have you beeii statioiied in this viciiiity?
A.I have been in this department eight years; most of the time in
the Territory of NN~yoming.
Q.Do you remember being preseiit with Professor ~Iarsh at P~ed
Cloud agency at the time that i~ed Cloud nn~l 1~ed Dog showed you
some rations?
A.Yes, sir; last November.
Q.At that time did you see anything more than the samples
which they showed you.  Did you see any of tlie nitions in the hands
of the people to whoiti they had beeii issued, or in tlie Jadian ngency
store~house for issue?
A.No.  I did not go into the store~house.
Q.You did not see iii the hai~ds of the I'idiai~s ~IJy of tlie supplies,
but simply the samples which were shown you
A.No.
Q.Do you remember seeing seven head of cattle there
A.Yes, sir.
Q.NVere those all the cattle that you saw there?
A.All I saw as in the bai~ds of the contn~c[or or his men.
Q.You have repeatedly been to P~ed Cloud ageilcy, have you not?
A.No.  I have been there perhaps three or four ti!10C5.
Q.On other occasions when you were there did you see aiiy beefcattle?
A.No; I think not.  None beloiigiiig to tlie contr;tctor; iioiie for
Indian issue.
Q.The seven head of cattle that you saw there were, as you state~1 iii
a certiheategiven to Professor NIarsh, estim' te(I by yourself and Captain
~fix and Lieutenant llay, and the aver~igc of ~he estimate was a")S 1)ouiidS.
Do you remember anythiiig that was said b~ tlie tierders or aliy one else
there as to whether those cattle were a f'iir 5' mple of tlie cattle they had
l~een issuiug~
A.I remember myself asking the qucstio'~ and the a'0swer of the 
23(3
herder was they were a fair sami)ie of the cattle issued; that is to say,
he announced himself as the her~ler empl~ycd by the contractor for furiiishiiig beef to the ~n~liaus.  ~Iy i'ecollectioii is th('~t lie said they were
about a fair sample in size.
Q. llave ~~ou ever had occasion to know anytliitig about the general
management of affairs at i~ed Cloud agency?
A. Not from personal observation. I have never asked auy questions.
Of course, looking to iiiformation of that kind there, I know frou~ talking
with the In~lians niore than in any other way; talking with Spotted
Tail, and I~~ed Cloud, and some other of their chiefs aii~l headmen.
(~.How did they express themselves ~
A. They niade to me very frequent aii~I serious complaints.  ~~y
positioli here is such being iii command of the dist~ct iii which the
agencies are iiiclude~l, that the Indians look u~)on me as a man who
can help them; but I cannot interfere in their affairs.  Yet they thiiik I
can, and they talk with me arid send commniiications to me.  I have
liad three or four communications since New Year's from Spotted Tail,
complaining of the quality and quantity of the supplies, and stating to
me that his people were starving for lack of food, and I have asked
whi~e n~en wlio were living with them, Nick Janis and others, and they
said that some of the Indians had starved last winter for want of food;
that they ate their ponies ~iud their dogs.  They eat dogs commonly,
but they would not kill a pony unless they weie very hard up for food.
Spotted Tail, when I saw him in November, asked to have a talk with
me.  lIe ~~me to P~issonett~s ranch, Where I was stopping, and we had
a couple of hours' talk, and he told me then they didn't get their regular supplies.  Sometimes they were weeks without beef, and sometinies
week  without flour; that was last November.  And, by a message he
selit mc iii the wiiiter through a man named Quigley, it would seem
they must have been very short of food.  Hed Cloud, at Red Cloud
agelicy, told inc substantially the same thing last November, and I
think you will iliid that there was a long period during this summer
wheii 110 ratioiis were issued. At least it is so rel)orted to ine by our officers over there, and oiie reason why they iiotice these thiiigs aiid report
them, is, that the lack of supi)lies to stay the hunger of tlie Indians
makes the Indiaiis restive and mischievous, an~l we are watching all the
time to counteract their movemejits iii the way of raids, and we notice
when they are well fed the trouble is less than wheii they are huiigi'v.
Our officers over near tlie agency report a state of disquietude on the
part of the Iiidians, aiid account for it in that way.  You will see the
beariiig of that.
Q. ~Vith tlie small f~~rce you have at your coiniiiand, and the large
number of Indians iii the district, I suppose it behooves officers at the
several posts to watch vigilaiitly what the Indians are doiiig?
A. Certaialy; and it is their duty to do so, and thQV do it without
illtending iii aiiy ~`1~ to interfere with tlie coiiduct of In~lian matters.
As soon as the Iiidiau leaves liis reservation we have a right to strike
him; we have no right~to touch him on the reservation, until tlie Indian
Department calls upon us for assistaiice, and if we follow tlie tr;iil of
those who are raiding aiid killing families, and strike a baud of In~lians
raiding among the settlements, we can then follow them on to the reservation, or wherever they may go; but while they are on the reservation, no matter what may be the cause of discontent among tirem, or
whatever may be their Preparatiol)s for~raids, the military can do nothin g to prevent them, but niust ~ ait until they commit soiiie overt act.
can do nothing unless the Interior Dej~artment calls for it; the 
237
Indians are solely in the charge of the agents and the Interior Department,
and our military posts are statione~l n~ar the agencies for the purpose
of watching them, in order to have a force ready in case it is called for.
Q.I understand, General, that you know Louis Reshaw.
A.I have known him since 1867, eight years.
f~. ~Vhat is his general rej}utation among tlie l)eol)le of this country
for truth and veracity~
~.It is good.
Do you remember observiiig the sl)eciluells of tobacco aiid coffee
that ~ed Cloud and Red Dog had on the occasion of your vi~it to the
agency ~
A.Yes; he gave ine some samples, and I exat~ined the1i).
Q.~~hat kind of articles were they?
A.They were poor.  The coffee was mostly iri small black beans.  I
had no sample of flour; the sugar was, of course, cheap sugar.  I saw
1)0 particular fault with it.  I didii~t exa!fliiIe it closely.  The tobacco
~-`i~ very poor.  lie gave iiie one of tlie oi'ditiaiy plugs of it, aiid I broke
it in half, and the inside was entirely soft, 50 ti)at by putting the ends
together it would stick and string out. It looked more like black
molasses and tobacco mixed together.  Outside it was dry, but in the
center it was soft-so soft that you could not rnb it iii your fingers,' and
yet before it was broken it looked tolerably black and dry. it was uu(it
to smoke. I don't think it would burn uiitil it was picked apart and
dried thoroughly.
Q.The Indians, I believe, use tobacco chiefly, if not eiitirely, for
smoking?
A.0, yes; entir~ly for smoking. I never knew one of theni to chew
tobacco. They are great smokers. Smoking is a business with the Indian;
he never bas a talk but he smokes. Smoking is a sort of religious rite
with them.  ~Vhen they have a council they poiiit to the four quarters of
the beavens, and theii they light their pij)es and take a couple of wltiifs
and pass the pipes around.
Q.When you were at Red Cloud agency, in November, di(l you have
any means of ascertaining with any degree of certainty the number of
Indians about the agency?
A.No, not then; but we have amoIlg ourselves an esti~nate of the
number of the Sioux-those ban~Is of Sioux that are over there,
the Brnl~s, the Ogallallas, and tlie ~Iinneconjoux.  The Ogallalas and
Red Cloud's men.  N\~ make an estimate of the iiumber we would have
to fight if the Indians broke out, and of course make a calculation of
the entire number upon the same basis.
Q.About how many do you estimate the iiuinber at the Red Cloud
agency?
A.My estimate is that there are not over six or seven thousand In dians.  Ishould say not more than six thousand of the Red Cloud men,
from all the information I have, and I have known them for eight
years. The first year I was out here, we were fighting them all the year.
Before the treaty of 1868 I was at the extreme liortliern post, aiid we
kiiew what their fighting strength was, because at times we met the
whole of them, and I doii't think they have increased in numbers at all
Since then.  I think:heir mo~le of life prevents their il)crease.  I don~t
think their mode of life favors increase.  There are about 1,200 fightii)g
men among the Ogallallas. Tlie Brul~s do not number probably over
4,000 altOgether.  I h~ve no data for those figures it is sin~~~ly our esti mate, and it is an estimate in which a great m'~ny Army oflicers agree
with me; but L knov' nothing about the actual counts.  I have seen
 
238
several lar~e vilia~es  that is the estimate upon which I would be willi~ig to figl~t them.  The ~tin'iecoijoux are smaller than the Brul~s.  I
d~)ii~t tlii[ik they w 11 reach 4.()0().  Now, tlie ~)ncl)aI)as live in tlie Yel
lowstone an~} Ton;~ue 1~iver region  they ai'e wild; they never ~~nie
down here.  I don' believe they number over 1,j00 or 2,000 tltogether.
J3y Mr. ATll SRTON:
Q.  ~Yiie~e are the Oncpapas fed ~
A.  They never visit the ageilcy at all; they keej aloof; and part of the
~Iinnecon.~onx (10 iiot come down for food, but part of them are fed
here at 1-~ed Cloud agency.  In 1S67 and 1S6S, whei~ we were at war
with the SiOliX in the n~~per country, Red Cloud coinmaiided the whole
of the hostile forces.  ile had Ogallallas, Minneco'~joux, Onepapas1 and
with them the Northern (?heyennes and the Arapahoes.  They never
turned out in ore tl~an 2.300 men in any one movemelit.  Of course that
was not their entire fighting strength, but it was all they could get
together at oi~e time; they had to leave sonie men in tlie villages and
sent some out to hunt.
By Mr. llA~Ris:
Q.  ~~hat is the number of the Northern Cheyennes and the Arapaboes?
A.  It is sin all.  I don't think the Cheyennes have n~ore than 2,000
~~eople up hei~e, and the Arapahoes more than 1,000; but there are more
Cheycunes now; a great in any of the Northern Cheyenues ii ave come
np here this spring; there are several hiindred up here now.  They are
~he ones th(tt are making tronUe this summer, and that stole the stock on
Laramie Plains in June.  They are Ul) on the Powder River.  Judge
I&elley, of Pennsylvania, had a herd of cattle up there, atid they stole
them all.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.  NN~ill the General be kind enough to state his estimate of the total
number of Indiaiis fed at the Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies ~
A.  I can only say what I have already said, Professor.  I have no
other means of knowing than as I have told you. The Ogallallas are fed
at the Red Cloud agency, and part of the Minneconjoux and l)art of
the Cheycunes are fed there, though n'1y impression is that the Cheyennes have no legal right to go there for rations.
By Mr. lIARRIS:
Q.  How about the Arapaliocs?
A.  Some of them may get rations there, but they have iio bu~incss
there.
The CHAIRMAN. The papers at tlie agency will show just what Indiai~s are supplied there.
By ~[r. HARRIS:
Q.  I would like to have your statement of what occurred in your presence when Professor ~1ars1i was there. Just state it in your owIl way, so
that we may have the opportunity of comparing your account with other
staten eiit~.
A.  Red Cloud came to my tent, iiear Camp ~~~obinson, about tlie 10th
or 12th of November.  Profts~or ~1arsh was iii my teiit, atid I scitt for
~Ir. Leoftee, who was then beef-contractor at Camp Robitison, atid for
John Nelson, an interl)reter, whom I had formerly ein~~loye~t; and several
officers were present, ainot)g tlieni Captain ~[ix and Lieuteiiaiit Hay, the
adjutaiit of the post. Red Cloud and Red Dog were the~e together, and 
239
made statements to this effect-the one talked after the other, first
Red Cloud and then Red Dog, aiid what they said was iiiterpreted by
Ecoffee and Nelson-Red Cloud and Red Dog complaiiied that they
were poorly supplied with food, and, after n~akiitg a staret~eiit to that
eftN~ct, asked me to send to tite I)resi~leitt atid tell hin~ ~~hat they
.~4id.  They ~aid that if I would proittise to do it that the woi~~
~~onld reach the President, but it. the~' made conipl;iittt to the
agent, they did not believe it would reach tlie Great Father at ~Vashington. They complained of the poor quality of foo~l-beef, flour, sugar,
tobacco, &c., and of insufficient quantitie~, and thIt their l)eol)le and
children were hungry and cr~~ing for food; tl tat they had relied for a
good while upon the Goverumetit to feed titeiti, and relied upon it still to
do so; that they had ~iven up their old huntiug-grounds 01) tlie Republican River, and the Govern u~ cut didn't leed them.  Both I)~ed Cloud
and Red Dog made this statenient. I told them I would send word back
to the President, and I did setid forward a report to Gencial Ord, cominanding the department, at Omaha, and I told them also that Professor
~Iarsh, ~~ho was with me there, was going East sooit. They asked me if
he was a friend of the President, and I told them that he was, and I
would ask him to go to N\'~ashington and state their complaints l)erson.
ally; and they said that they would be very glad to have tue do so.
Professor ~larsh theii promised that he would go to N\~ashiiigtou and
carry this message to the President.
Q. You were saying that they asked you if Professor ~Iarslt was a
friend of the President's.
A. Be recognized him as a citizen, being mei~ly a transient traveler.
I told him who he was; that he was a teadier in the East, who had come
ont here looking for bones, and that when he went back he would go to
~Vashington and carry these messages. That was the substance of the
conversation. Of course it was a lengthy talk, as all talks with the Indians are.  There is a great de al repetition in thent, but the pith of
the conversation was the insufficiency and inferior quality of the supplies.
Q. N\Tas there anything said particularly about the beef?
A. Beef was mentioned with th ose other articles, and they complaitied
that they did not have enough of that. ~Ieat is the maiti reliance of the
Indians.
Q. Did they say anything abo ut the size of the cattle?
A. Yes, sir.  Red Cloud asked me tite next day to look at the cattle.
N\~e went out next day and looked at those cattle with hi in; i~ed Dog
went along; Red Dog is one of the headmen.
Q. He showed you the seven cattle?
A. Yes, sir; the seven were all that were 0!) the ratige.
Q. ~Vhat did they look like? Give us your descrii~tion of theta.
A. They were small youiig steers and cows.
Q. Something was said about their being latiie, I believe; of their
legs being broken?
A. Some of them were lame, as cattle will be frequetitly out herefoot-sore from travel.  They were thin iu flesh aiid SmIll iii size, aiid
there`vere eight gentlenieti there wlio tuade ~5ti11)ite5; three of them
were Army officers and otie a beef-contractor to tite Army. TIte officers
were all accustomed t~i h;~iidling beef at the posts, atid know "hat
Army beef is, atid t~cii51 outed to see large itutitbeis of c;tttle oi~
the raliges.  Professor ~1(t?~li tlie inar~1ial of tlie Territory, ~~h() was
up here at the time. who is himself a stock-owiter, aii{l tlie ~)iyiI)a5t~~,
and a gentleman wlii w~s vith the p;iyinaster, whose iiitII~ I iI()'v lotget; there`t,ere eight, all westerti men, wlt 0 estittiated the average 
240
weight of tl~at little band. Those estimates are averaged, and that is
the way tho~e figures are reached. My own opinion was then and is
now that it`~~as very large; my estimate was very much less.
Q.Now, I want to know whether you were pres~nt on the next day,
the 14th. 1 t~ink it was, when the distribution of annuity goods was
made?
A.No, sir I had gone to Spotted Tail agenQv.
Q.You know nothing of the facts ill that connection?
A.I did not see any of those goods; I did not see any annuity goods
in store.
Q.In dnviog cattle froni the Platte (where I understand they are
generally herded) to the agency, what is the distance on that route between water?
A.I cannot tell you exactly, but it is a regular road for trains.
Q.About a dozen miles?
A.From twelve to twenty; it is a very well-watered country.
Q.N\~ll watered for this country?
A.I mean well watered for traveling, where you can get water every
twenty miles. If you can get water morning and night, you are well
off.
Q.Suppose an ox was watered in the morning and then driven during the day, how much water would it drink at night?
A.I do not know. Under those circumstances stock won't drink
inore than once a day.  Our horses won't drink more than once a
day on the march; we usually break camp early in the morning, and if
they won't drink then, they get no water until night; and it is just so
with cattle.
Q.llow much will they take when they come to drink?
A.They will take a big drink then. A horse, at the end of his day's
march, will drink two buckets full and more at a time. As soon as we
go into camp they go for water, and they will take several drinks; but
if you tie a horse up, as I do my own horses, (I have them picketed, and
a man brings them water,) they will take two buckets full of water at
once, and after a while they want more. An ox will drink, I suppose,
more than a horse.
Q.I notice in your Army contract for beef that you do not allow the
cattle to be watered within twelve hours of the time they are weighed.
A.Yes, sir; you understand the reason of that?
Q.~Veil, I suppose I do.
A.It is simply because we don't want to weigh the water.
Q.Do you know whether any such precaution is taken in the supply
of beef to the Indians?
A.No, I don't; I never saw an issue at the agency.
Q.Do you know whether it is a matter of knowledge in the country
th~t that is the practice there?
A.I don't know whether it is or not; I have never had occasion to
observe it.
Q.Would you think one hundred pounds in weight of water would
be an unusual quantity for an ox to take?
A.I don't thiJ)k it would be excessive.
Q.What do we call the weight of liquids, twelve pounds to the gallon? My impression is that first-quality molasses weighs twelve pounds
to the gallon, and I think water weighs about the same.
A.A gallon of water, I should think, would weigh twelve pounds; it
is a long time since I was at school.  You have noticed horses which
have been without water for a long time, and you know how greedily they 
241
will drink, and of course there is 110 restraint on animals, aiid when they
drink under these circumstances, when they ll'tve beeii without food for
a long time on the road, and their stomachs ~i~~ eiiiptv, they take in a
great (~uantity of water. O~r horses will iiot ~raze niitil iiight; they will
rest during the day and not graze uiitil the cool of tlie evening, aiid I
think one reason of this is that theji- stomachs are fnIl of watei.  There
is one thing that I will say with re&rence to beef; I sly th;it no contractor who furiiishes beef to the agency to be fed t() the Iiidi~iis can
fnrnislt it anycheaper than tlie Amy colitiactor f1iri~~liesgood beef; of
course tlie contracts are for good beef always.  N()\\~, I cltiiii that we
biiy beef iii the Arniy as cheaj~ly is it cari b~ bon~1i  a'i~l yon Ciii ascerrain easily what the Army 1)1-ices are if you will wi' te to ~eiieral lIawkin<, the chief commissary at Oiiialia; lie ~~il1 gi we tlie prices l)ai~l at
everv post in this part of tlie country.
Tlie CllAIRMAN. ~Ve have got tii(~tt there.
~VIiNEss. And if you compare tlie prices yori will -~ e tlie difference
iii the prices paid for Army beef and Iiidiaii beef.
J3y ~Ir. llARRiS:
Q.~Vheu ycur beef is fnrnished oil tlie block you give about 6~~ cents
for it, but you reject the necks arid shanks?
A.Yes, sir; necks, and from 4 to ~ inches oil tlie shaiik~.
Q.And in paying for tlie beef YOu P(~i~ OlilY whit you receive?  -
A.That is all.
Q.And you require the animal to weigh so much?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Estimating tlie beef by tlie known weight of t'~e animil after it is
killed?
A.~Ve allow one-half shrinkage.
Q.If you were going to buy cattle on the hoof for a march, for an expedition, how would you buy them?
A.The contractor agrees to furnish whatever cattle we wau~, on the
hoof or on the block, arid the price is fixed for each contract, so much
gross aiid so much on the block, and part of them are weighed, and some
experts, usually a board of Army officers, are appointed to inspect the
cattle to see whether they are up to the contract; whether they are in
proper coiiditiori as to flesh, and of the proper size, and to weigh a fair
number of average size arid estimate the average weight of the herd by
that number.
(~. And you require th~ the cattle shall not drink within twelve
houns befo~e that time?
A.Yes, sir.  I think that is the provision.
~rr. HARRIS. I saw the contract last night iii the hands of ~Ir. I&elly.
~VITNESs There is another thing in connection with beef that is iniportaut: the smaller the animal you kill the ~reater is tlie difference between the gross weight and tlie uet weight, aiid that is one reason wliy
we require steers of about 1,000 pounds, because they will Collie to tlie
block with a greater percentage of beef than smaller ariiiri~ils.  If you
buy a herd of light~weight small animals you will get~a~less 1)C~CCnti~C
of meat than if ~ou buy a herd of larger aniriials; so it i~ to tlit interest
of all people bn~~ing cattle to buy theiri large.
(?- It is claim~d here by the Contractors that it is to their irit~ rest to
furnish large cattle.  Do you understirid tli(~it to be so ~
A.Yes, sir.  There is a saving iii tlie lI'~ri(llirig, iii killing, iii`sijili g,
if, 11 11 otliing else.
1G I P 
242
Q.That is upon the presumption that they get paid only for their
weight?
A.Yes, sir; and they make more money on the offal, on the t ~llow
and hide. llides sell by weight as well as tallow.
Q.I want to ask whether or not, since you have been in commaiid of
the post, if any considerable amount of transportation for Red Cloud
agency has passed through or near Fort Laramie?
A.Only a small number of teams pass through here, and then only
during the season of high water in the Platte, when the ferry here was the
only means of crossing the Platte, some six or eight weeks; that is, in
June and J uly. It may have commenced this year in April. I call the
distance ninety miles from Cheyenne to this place, but I think the Army
contractor estimates it at a little more. It is one hundred and sixtythree miles from Cheyenne to Red Cloud agency by the way of Fort
Laramie, according to my eshmate~ but the next man`nay estimate it
differently. This whole road has been measured by the odometer, and
you will find, I think, at Camp Robinson, near Red Cloud agency, the
odometer measurements; but the odometer is a very nurcijable instrument. You can scarcely get the same distance unless it is measured
three or four times. It varies sometimes six or eight miles in a hundred.
By Mr. FAULKNiER:
Q.Your attention has been called upon more than one occasion to
the condition of the Indians in their destitution of supplies. Did your
observation or conversation with the Indians, or anything else, enable
yon to form any opinion as to what was the source of this evil, of this
destitution; whether it sprung from the inattention of the Indian agent
or of the contractor for transportation, or the want of appropriations by
Congress? Can you give us any idea, as far as your observation exended, as to the source of the evil? It seems to be a great one.
A.It arises frequently, I think, from the failure of the contractor to
e his supplies at the agency in time. I mean the freight contractor.
There may be very reasonable excuses at times, such as bad weather,
~~r instance, which he could not foresee, and which would prevent his
reaching his destination on time. I think that is a frequent source of
the trouble in the lack of supplies. I don't know anything about what
the appropriations are for these different bands of Indians. Therefore
I don't know whether the Government is blamable for any deficiency
except in the matter of enforcing contracts. If we make a contract for
the Army and the contractor fails to fulfill it, we hold him responsible.
The Indian is not treated as white men are treated.
By Mr. ATRERTON:
Q.llave you had any difficulty on account of the failure to deliver
supplies to the Army?
A.Very rarely. I have known such fulures, but they are very f~w
indeed. There is another thing that accounts for the Indians being
short of supplies: The Ii~dian is a very improvident fellow, and if you
furnish hiiu with ten days' supplies to-day, he very often will not have a
~onthfuI at the end of five days. lle does not take care of his property.
An Indian may be hungry though you feed him well, for he will eat five
days' supplies in three; but that does not account for all the deficiency,
although I think the Indians are learning, by this system of being fed by
the Government and by intercourse with the white men, to apportion
their food to the number of days. I don't think that evil is as great as
it was formerly.
Q.You saw that specimen of to1~acco that has been mentioned. I 
243
don't now speak of the qiiality of that particular article of tobacco; but
is it your O1)lUiOfl that that general kind of tobacco is the proper kind to
be distribnted among the India~s for smoking I)urposes?
A No, sir; it is not such tobacco as we would nse for smokin~ and
as the Indian uses it entirely for smoking, I think that kind of article is
a b~d selection, conceding it to be sound.
Q.I would like to ask you whether it frequently becomes necessary
fi~r you to consult with the officers of the Indian Depart~uent iii your
district with regard to the management of Indiaii affairs ~
A.No, sir; we never do it.
Q.Can you give us copies of those communicatioi~s of ~potted Tail
that you spoke of, if they should be desired?
A.I cannot say now whether I can or not, for I may not have pre~~erved them. I will see, and if I can find them, I will h and them to
you when you come back.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.General, does your experience enable you to suggest any check
that might be imposed upon the present system at the agency, by which
more certainty could be obtained in the distribution ot those annuity
goods, and supplies ~ It seems 4~Qv are distributed now without ally
check upon the agent, so far as I can see, except his own honesty and
integrity.
A.Yes, sir, I think decidedly that you need a systeni that will provide
for close watching and better management. ~~here there are several
thousand people to be fed, large amounts of goods to be issued to these
people, blankets and clothing of all sorts, it involves a great deal of
money, and as a business operation there should be somebody to see if
that property is delivered at the proper time, and if it is not delivered,
that the contractor is held responsible in money for the failure, and when
issued, that they should be issued on a system that would provide for
the checks that you would apply to any other business-such as a bank
or any other business. No one man in the Army, no one man in a bank
no one man in a railroad company, has the handling and disbursing and
accounting for half a million dollars without any check. There is more
than one man concerned in that operation from first to last, and respon.
sible, so that if one man makes a mistake or an improper use of the
monQv, there is some one who would know it besides himself.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.Can you state the distance, by the usually traveled road for freighters, between Cheyenne and Red Cloud agency?
A.Yes, sir. The road was measured by an Army officer last winter.
It is eighty miles from Cheyenne to the crossing at Ja'iis's raiich, thirty
miles below here. The survey was discontinited theii on account of tlie
extremely cold weather; but you can ascertaiii the distance from Jatiis's
ranch to Red Cloud agency.  It is commonly called seveiity-five miles.
Jaiiis's ranch is at the old Red Cloud agency.
Q.It is further froin that crossing than it is from here to Red Cloud?
A.I think it is. The Platte River makes a great deal of southing
for the easting, so that the further you go in that direction the further
is the line.
Q. But not exceedino- 0, according to
yo'%r estimate?      i~e hundre( and flityfive mile~
I think not. 
244
~ED (?Lc)UD A~yNcY, NFI3RAsk~,
~fo)~d(!J?, 1i~g?tst 9, 1S75.
I)i'e~ciit  Hoii. TlloMAs C. I:LLTCIIER, chairman, I~rof. G~o~cE N\~.
A~TliERToN, H on. B. ~\~. HARRiS, a~~d Hon. CIIARLL'S J. FAULKNER.
TESTIThIONY OF WILLIAM ~OWL AND.
By the CilAiRMAN:
Question. Of what part of the couiitry are you a ii;{tive, Mr. P~owland?
Answer. I am a i~ative of tlie State of Missouri.
Q. How bug have you beeii in the Indian connti%v?
A. Since 1S49.
Q. ~Vh'tt tribe of Indians have you bee ii chiefly ~~ith during that
time
A. The Clieyennes and Sioux.
Q. How long have you been in the vicinity of tlie i~ed Cloud agency?
A. I ii ave been here since it was first started.  I caine here two
months after Dr. Saville came here. I forget exactly the day of the
mouth I came here  it was about the 1st of October.
Q. Have you been in this vicinity pretty much ever since?
A. Ever since; and I have been employed here more or less during
that time.
Q. You are interpreter for the Cheyeni~es, are you iiot?
N Yes, sir.
Q. Do you understand the Sioux language?
A. I understand the Sioux pretty well, sir.
Q. ~Vere you here iii November, 1S74, tlie tinie tli('~t Professor ~farsli
was here?
N Yes, sir.
Q. Were you preseiit at the issue of beef ab~ut tlie 8~h or 14th of
November, 1~74?
A. Yes, sir; I have been at every beef-issue; I guess I have not
missed )I~e since I have been here.  It is part of my busiiiess to be here
to i~iterpret for the Indians in receivilig their beef.
Q. As you have seen all these issues of beef, generally, were the cat -
te i~sued at that time of si~nitar quality to those issned before and
sii~ce?
A. Well, yes; I doit think the way the beef lias run, as a general
thing, (except about two issues last winter, during that cold weather,
wheii it was a little thin and poor,) that they have beeii any differeiit.
Thlost of the tinie we h~ive had what we call goo~l beef here.
Q. Do they weigh the beeves?
k Yes, sir.
().All of the in
X  Yes, sir; every head.
Q. NVell, tlie beeves that have usually been delivered, would they
always average about tlie same weight ~
Y N\~ell, yes  I think they would vary very little.
Q. Were they exclusively steers, or were there some caws among
them
A. Some cows iiiixed with tlie steers; I canilot say how they would
run-what 1 r~portioii there were of cows to steers; I iiever l)aid ai1y
attention to that.
Q. You could not say whether there would be iii ore steers than cows?`
A. I think, perhaps, there would be sometimes more steers and some 
245
times more cows; they would vary in different issues. There was a
part of the time ]ast winter when we had almost all steers.
Q. Were any of those beeves that you saw issued at that time, or at
other times, yearlings and two-year.olds?
A. They used to bring in some small yearliiigs, but they did not issue
them as beef. I believe ~Ir. Bosler threw them iii.
Q. By throwing them in, you mean just threw them iii without weighing them, or making any charge tbr them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The mariner of weighing those beeves, as I understand, is to drive
the cattle through from one corr~l to another, and between those two
corrals are the scales an
A. Yes, sir.,  d there they are weighed?
Q. In passing through from one corral to another, if tli~re were aiiy
yearlings, would not they go on the scales and be weighed too?
A. Yes, sir; I have heard the clerk speak of deducting the weight of
the yearlings; at least that is the way I understood it. They were iiot
consi~lered beef.
Q. Do your remember anything of a circumstance, about November or
December, of Some seven head of cattle beirig left over and issued to
the Indians ~
A. Yes, sir; there were six or eight here; they were taken out of the
herd, and I guess those were very thin cattle-too poor to issue; an~l I
think they sent them up to the herd. I don't know in fact what they
did with them. It was the time that Professor Marsh was ii crc.
Q. After the cattle are turned over by the contractor to the agent
they are not all immediately issued, but some are sent to the herd-camp
for future issues?
A. Yes, sir; they have some on hand most of the time-more or less;
~ometimes ~riough for two or three issues; at another time there will be
just a stnall quantity left over the last.
Q. Ilave you ev~r weighed any of this beef yourself, or seen it
weighed?
A. I never weighed a hoof of it myself.
Q. An~t never saw it weighed so that you knew the weight; saw the
figures?
A. No, sir.
Q. So that you could not say what would be the weight of th  cattie?
A. I could not, sir.
By Mr. ATflERTON:
Q. ~Vho does weigh them?
A. Mr. Gibbons, the clerk; most of the time.
By Mr. UARRIS:
(~.I understood you to say that all the cattle are weighed
A.  Yes, sir; they are all weighed.
By the CllAIR~AN:
Q flo you remember of noticing during last fall anything of the
~();~lity of the lOur tt~at was issued to the Indians at this ageiicy?
-~ ~es, Sir; last fall, when Mr. Bevier came here, I went through the
(~O!nmissary Wi h him, and examined the flour aiid everything that WiS
iri tire comrnis5 rv. I foraet exactly what time that was.  N\~& examined
tire flour, arid f~u'nd most~of it to be pretty fiiir flour; there were sonic
sacks in which he flour was a little dark.  ~~heri Profe~sor ~[arsh was
 
246
here I do not remember; ~ could not say exactly, what kiiid of flour was
here, I do not remember noticing it at all.
Q.Do you remember at any time during last flill or winter of seeing,
in the Indians tepees, or in the commissary, or anywhere about here, any
flour that struck you as b~ing of any particular mark or grade, either
good or bad ~
A No, sir; I remember at one time there was some flour fetched here
that got wet crossing the Platte; the driver said so.
Q.Do you remember what time that was?
k Last fall.
~~. I)urii0g last fall and winter and last spring did you hear any
talking among the Indians, Cheyenn es, or Sioux, or any of the othersdid you hear them grumUing about the quality of the flour?
A.I never did, sir.  All I heard them grumbling about was not
gettin~ enough.
Q.Do y%u see and talk to the Indians generally a good deal about
the agency
A.0 yes, sir; every day, more or less.
Q.Did you ever hear them complain to any one about the quality of
the coffee?
A.I heard them g~umbling about the sugar~thebrown sugar; they
would rather have white sugar.  I never heard them grumble about the
coffee.
Q.Did you ever hear them talking about the tobacco?
A.Yes, sir; I heard them speaking often about the tobacco. As a
general thing they do not like the kind of tobacco tl~ey get here. Ttiey
say it is not good for anything; that they cannot smoke it.
Q.Your long acquaintance with the Indians enables you to judge what
use the Indian makes of tobacco?
A.Smoking, as a general thing; very few of them chew it. But there
has been some good tobacco; there have been all kinds. One kind
would not do to ~moke very well, for it was too wet. [Sample of the tobacco shown.] That is the kind I speak of-short plug; it is very damp tobacco and not good for smoking; but the long plug is good. It is the
kind of tobacco we used to get from the traders, in the early days, to
smoke.
Q.Do the Indians gei~erally use flour a great deal?
A.They are getting to use it a great deal. They use as much again
~ow as they did three ~ears ago; three years ago they had not got used
to eating bread; but now their children and families are getting like
the whites, to use bread all the while.
Q.Foi~erly they lived chiefly on meat?
A.Yes, sir; when we came to this country you would not see a piece
of bread among them once a year.
By Mr. FALTLNNLR:
Q.Of neither corn nor wheat?
A.No, sir.
By the CllAiRMAN:
Q Uow do they use corn
A.They boil it up and make this old-fashioned lyc-hominy; what they
call in the Last hulled corn.
Q.Among the Indians, after the last issue of annuity-goods, did yon
observe any difficulty with their blankets on account of the marks that
were on them; any holes in the blankets where they were branded?
A.Yes; tho~~ that the Sioux got, where the letters were, there came 
247
holes in in a short time.  The Indians said to me, those blankets had
been burned with a hot iron as they brand a Government mt~le, and that
was the reason for the holes. I helped to issue them, a'}d they appeared
to be sound.
Q. ~Do you recollect how many bales of blankets were j55flC(l at that
time
A. No, sir; I do not.  Perhai~s I knew at the time, biit I l~ave forgotten now.
Q. Do you remember whether all the annuity-goods for that year were
issued at one time or not?
A. They were all issued at one time except a big box of axes and a
small box of hardware, (I forget just what the articles were.) They were
not here when the other thin~s were is~ued
Agent     you at any ti'nc ~{ar~, but they got them soon
Q. llave                     co~npl<iiiits a'i~ong the Iiidians of
A. N\~ell, some of them; yes. I have heard some of then talki'ig about
him, the same as they talk about every miii.  Some ot tl~eni Si)eak well
of him and others speak bad of him.
Q. Those who speak bad of him, what do they say?
A. They thought he was not trying to assist them, aiid others thought
he was a rascal; and that is the way they speak of all the agents.
Q. Do you say that it is usual among the Indians to co'n~)laiu of their
agents?
A. Yes, sir; an Indian to-day may get mad, and he will sit down and
give the agent a terrible raking, and come back to-morrow and talk the
other way. But take the Cheyennes and Arapahoes, and, as a general
thing, I think they all like Dr. Saville very well; that is, all the headmen.
Q. Is there, a'nong the Cheycunes here, so far as you can observe,
any division into parties, adhering to different leaders?
A. 0, yes; now there are two or three different parties right here.
There is Red Cloud, he has a party of his own. Then there is this man
they call Little N\~onnd, of the Cut-off band, and four or five different
parties. Ti~ere is Red Leaf, of the ~Vahashaws. Those are the three
principal ones.
Q. ~~elI, what are the causes of difference among them, the questions that divide them?
A. There have always been different bands since I have been in this
country, and each band has its chief. At the same time, Red Cloud has
been recognized here as the general chief; but he has not much more
power, so far as that is concerned, than the rest of them outside of his
small band, nor as much as some other headmen.
Q. liave you anything like a correct idea of the ii umber of Cheyennes
who get subsistence at this agency?
A. Yes, sir; there are at present here about one liuiidre~l lodges
just one hundred families.
Q. Are there others who are absent from here who occasioiially come
here~
A. Out north there must be about one hundred and forty lodges more.
Q. They come in here occasionally to get their goods?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are there any portions of the Cheyeiines that you know of who are
generally absent from here, but who occasionally come hei-e, only iii the
winter, to get rations?
A. No, sir.
1111 III I 
248
Q. They report regularly bere-all the Cheyenn~'s?
~. Yes, sir.
Q. There are 5O!)0C of the' Northern Sioux that y()n tliiiik l~ave never
b~en bere at all?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.Then there are other~ who h~ve come here oct~asioi~ally?
k Yes, sir.
By Mr. FAVLKNLR:
(?.Ifow many Indians do you calculate to a lodge?
A. This spring I thiiik they averaged about eight to a lodge.
By Mr. ATlIERTON:
~. The Sioux or Ch~vei~nes?
A. The Cheyennes.
ThIr. llARRIs. That would be about nineteell hundred, or a little less
than two thousand of them.
Mr. ATRERToN. Tbat is what I have it, nineteen hundred and
twenty.
By the CllMR~AN:
Q. Since you have been at the agellcy, have tl~ere been times when
the supplies or the annuity-goods were delayed on their way here?
A. Not annuity-goods, that I remember; but last winter, during the
very cold weather, tlie agent was out of supplies.
Q. Do you know anything of why that was?
k I understood that the freighters lost their c~ttle; the snow was so
sevele that they lost their cattle.
By Mr. ATll~RTON:
Q. Ilow did you get the information?
A. I went into Cheyenne myself, aiid sa\v a good many freighterssome of them on the way and some of them at Cheyenne. There were
a couple of trains that got caught over here on Snake Creek, and they
lost their cattle, and the men got frozen.
Q. Do you remember of seeing ai0y pork issued to tlie Indians here
last fall?
k Yes. sir; they is~icd pork here last winter.
(~.That, I believe, was something unprecedented; they had not issued
pork before
A. No, sir; that was the first pork tl~ey issued.
Q. TIow did the Indians like the pork?
A. They did not like it at all.
(j). Did you notice what the character of the i)ork was, whcther it was
good, sweet pork or not?
A. The first lot of pork we liad here was very good l~ork, about as
good as I ever saw.
By Mr. llAR~iS:
Q. NN~hat was the character of it?
A. It was mess-pork; the second lot was of ~io accon~it at all; it was
smali bogs chopped up au~l thrown in.
Q. ~~~as the quality of tlie pork bad, or was it siniply 51)oile(l?
A. Some of it was spoiled; some of it smelle~l bad wheii you opeued
the barrel.  The quality was bad.  The brine leaked out of tlie barrel,
and it was dry.
Q. And it seemed to be tlie thin part of middlings aiid a portion of
the shoulder? 
249
A. It was the whole hog chopped up into small pieces-~houiders
sides, hams, and all.  It looked like small pigs.  The Indians used to
throw it away; you could gather lip wagon-loads where the Indians
threw it out on the prairie.
Q. ~Yere there regular issues of beef made at the  ame tinie that
those issues of pork were mdc?
A. Yes sir.
Q. So that at the same time the Indian got all i55flC of pork lie also
got an issue of beef?
A. Yes, sir; thev issued rations like-to-d~y pork, aiid to-morrow
b~efl
Q. They issued the pork as r~tiOll5 as they now issue tlie bacon that
we see?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Was there at any time last win~er any sufiering among the Indians
on account of the shortness of supplies?
A. I think last winter, sir, there was a time when there N'-ere probably
some of them suffering.  I am pretty sure there were.
Q. Did you know any such case directly?
A. No, sir; I did not see any; I only kiiow what they used to tell ine.
Q. Did you hear of any cases of starvation?
A. 0, no, sir; there was nothing like that at all; nothing anywhere
near starvation, because they had beef most all that time, arid they had
been raised on beef.  There was a short time when they were out of
flour and sugar and coffee and pork.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Does the Indian use sugar in bis coffee as we do?
A. They use a great deal more than the whites; more sugar and less
coflee.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Mr. Rowland, have you any particular and special recollection of
the issue of that beef on the 14th of November, when Professor Marsh
was here?
A. No, sir; I did not pay any more particular attention to that than
to any other.
Q. Does your memory enable you to state whether there was anything
particularly marking that distribution; wh~ther the cattle were iimferior
to those of the ordinary issues, or whether they came up to the ordinary
standard?
A. I think there was very little difference, so far as I can remember.
There were two issues here when the cattle were very thin.  I am sure
both of these issues were after Professor Marsh w~s here.  That was
dunug that very severe cold weather last winter.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Do you know anything of the Indians selliiig any of their flour to
the traders?
A. They sold flour to the freighters wlio caine here {;ist year.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
(? Mr. Rowland, you say that, iii the discharge of y(iur dury as an iiiterl)reter, you were required to be l)resent at the weigiiiiig of time beef?
& Yes, sir; I was there at every issue. 
250
Q. Well, have you ever noticed any parties designing to conceal from
anybody the weighing of the cattle?
A. No, sir; notatall.
Q. Was it a matter of publicity?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were anybody and everybody permitted to be present?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were the Indi~n chiefs present?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did they exercise anything like supervision to see whether the
cattle were fairly weighed?
A. No, sir; they have two or three times said something in a joking
way. Red Cloud would ask Mr. Gibbons or some of the clerks if they
were weighing right, or something of that kind. I never saw anything
concealed about the matter; it was always a public thing.
Q. When the Indians kill these beeves, do they use the greater portion of the meat, or do they waste any of it?
A. Sometimes I have seen them leave some of it on the ground, such
as the bony parts, the hips and back bones, and legs.
Q. You say you were present at the distribution of the blankets on
the 14th of November, 1874, and you say you do not recollect the
precise number distributed?
A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. llave you any recollection whether the distribution was very large
or very small, or whether its character was snch as to attract any attention to it?
A. It was neither large nor small.
Q. Was there the usual amount distributed at that time?
A. Well, I hardly think there was as much then as there was the
year before, but I would not say positively.
Q. Could you from your recollection now of the amount of blanketsthe number of bales then issued-form any opinion whether that issue
amounted to eighteen or thirty-five bales, or whether it was between
those numbers?
A. No, sir; I could not, because I do not remember, and I would not
like to make any guess-work about it.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. What was the ~ize of the blankets that were issued?
A. Different sizes.  Those blankets were all marked with points from
one up to three.
Q. Do you remember whether the proportion of one size to another
was in any way unusual?
A. No, sir; Idonot.
Q. You don't know whether there were more large blankets issued
than small?
A. I think, if either, there were more large. In fact, I heard a great
many speaking abont their children-speaking of their not getting many
small blankets?
By Mr. FAvLxNtR:
Q. You say you occasionally heard the Indians speak harshly of Dr.
Saville?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. llave you ever heard him charged with any act of concealment,
dishonesty, fraud, or any specific act of impropriety I
A. I heard the Indians tell him that they thought he was a thief. 
251
Q. Have they ever charged him with any specific act of thievishness
or dishonesty I
A. No, sir; not through me.
Q. I mean have you ever heard them make such statements?
A. No, sir; I beard them make such a remark as that, that they
thought he was a thief and accused him of steaiiiig.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Do you mean to say they said so tliro~igh you
A. I only heard them call him a thief.
By Mr. FAULK?~~R:
Q. Have you ever, in your intercourse with them, beard any complaints on their part that looked to any particular act of thievishness
or dishonesty in him?
A. No, sir; I have not; that is a common thing with the Indians, to
call a white man a thief-any one that has got any business with them.
Q. Theii, according to your ideL, when they called him a thief they
merely meant to express some general di sap probation of his con~tuct, aiid
not to charge him with any spec'ific act of dishonesty?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~~hat significance do the Indians attach to tlie word thief when
they use it in that way?
A. Well, sir; they call one another thieves and rascals.  ~Vhen they
think a man is a bad man they calt him a thief or something like that.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. I merely want to ask, in this case, if you remen~ber what provoca.
tion they had at the time for calling him a thief?  ~~hat was the occasion? What was it about?
A. ~Yell, I think it was in regard to issuing rations. The rations perhaps were a little short.  There' have been times when the provisions
were short, and there would not be enough to issue full rations, and
they would have to issue half rations to make them go around.
By ~fr. ATllER~ON:
Q. Would not that indicate that they meant to say that he liad stoleii
l)art of their rations?
& Yes, sir.
By Mr. HARRIS
Q. Now, you say that you know the frei~bter~ have been a~eustomed
to buy flour from the Indians?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.Have you known them to buy any other su~~plies?
A. I have not seen them do it; I 5Ul)l)O5C they bought corn.
Q. Any bacon?
A. Not much bacon, I think.
Q. To what extent, as far as your observation and knowledge go, are
they accustomed to sell flour aiid corn to freighters
A. In 1S73 and 1S74 there was cOn5iderq~ble sold.
Q. Did the freighters make a I)ractice of buying their sul)plies at this
end of the line, rather than at the other,`~ecause they could buy them
~heaper?
A. I presunie they did  they could biiy ~ sack of flour of an Indian
for a dollar-a sack of a huiitlred pounds. 
By the CRMRMAN:
Q.Did you ever know of any flour being issued in le~s than 100~pound
sacks?
A.No, sir.
By Mr. HARRTS:
Q.Ifave you known those freighters to take away loads of flour to
sell at the other end?
A.I have seen some, and I have beeninf~rmedbf a great many different times when they took away quite a lot.
Q.~Vere those McCann's freighters?
A.Yes, sir; the man that freights to this agency. I suppose it is
AjcCann.
Q.Do you know of whom those freighters had bought the flour?
A.No, sir; I could not say.
Q.Have you known either of the traders here to buy flour from the
Indians?
A.I never saw either of them do it.
Q.Have you any information that t'wy did?
A.I never saw them buy any, and never heard that they bought any.
Q.Is it your impression that this trade has been directly betweeu the
freighters and the Indians?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Have the white men who live among the Indians, and have married Indian women, been engaged in that business?
A.I think one of them would buy a sack for his family if he wanted
some.
Q.I mean, would he buy some ~o accumulate and to sell again?
A.There may be some cases of that kind, but I think not.
By Mr. ATUERTON:
Q.Did they go round and pick ni) sack by sack at different lodges
until they got as much as they wanted?
A.Yes, sir.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q.Do you know Bob Randall or
A. Yes, sir.,   Todd Randall ~.
Q.Do you know that he sold any directly to the freighters to be
shipped away by the wagon-load?
A.No, sir.
By the CllMRMAN:
Q.Do you know what he did with his flour? Did he haul it away?
A.I think he used to feed it to his mules; he had a mule-train here.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q.Did you ever know of his carrying away 150 sacks at a time?
A.No, sir.
Q.Did you ever know him to turn in any flour which he had bought of
the Indians instead of flour which he had to freight?
A.No, sir; I did not.
Q.You think this business was carried on to a considerable extent,
do you?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Extending to thousands of sacks?
A.Probab]y over a thousand sacks, anyway, were sent away from
here-corn and flour. 
253
Q. Now, I want to go back to the pork.  You say that some of the
pork which came here was nice, clear pork?
A. Yes, sir; the first lot of pork was very nice pork.
Q. Do you mean by that clear pork?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.Did the Indians like that?
A. They did not like that as well as they like~l bacon, but it was very
good 1~ork.
Q. The second lot of pork was coniposed of sin~!l hogs, very lean, cut
right through, hams and all?
A. The whole hog cut up, as I would tbiiik from the looks of the
boiies: tlie whole hog chopped ul).
(?.J)id you see any heads or f~et?
A. No, sir.
(?- You say some of it smelled bad?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Utterly ruined?
A. Yes, sir.
~~. Did the Indians make use of any part of it?
A. Some parts of it; they used to take what little fat there w-~s, and
the balance they threw away.
Q. Y,~as there any pork there so bad that no part of it was fit to eat?
A. No, I believe white men would have eaten it-boiled it; but it was
of no accouiit to au Indian, because he don't kiiow how to use it  and
there was very little grease in it.
Q. After that bad pork came here, you say tlie last was better than
that I
A. Tlie last was pretty fair pork; part of the last ~~-as pretty fitir pork,
b~it it was mixed.
Q. You say of the second lot that it was utterly unfit to give to Indiaiis?
A. Yes; it was utterly waste-of no account at all.
By Mr. ATlIERTON:
Q. I understood you to say there was some of it that was not fit for
anybody to eat ~
A. Yes, sir; a few barrels that the brine leaked out of.  The Indiaiis
said it all stunk.
Q. Did they throw away any part of the first issue of pork?
A. No, sir; I dou't thiiik so.  If they (lid, I itever saw it.
ByMr.llARRis:
Q. Do you know whether that l~ad pork was around here wheii Profes~or Marsh was here?
A. Yes, sir  I thiiik it was.
Q. And what Professor ~1arsh says of it, that some of i~ was tljrowii
upon the ground and was old and strong aiid rusty, and uiifit for humal
food, was true, was it not?
A. Yes, sir- I think he saw some of it.
(?- Now, will you tell us, in your (~wn way, tlie mode of weigliiiig cattle? Give the commissioners a description of the pr~)cess, so that we caii
fully understand it.
A. They have two corrals, so~nethiiig similar to these rooms. with a divisioii between them, aiid have scales iii the middle divisiol, just like
where that door is, {~iointiug to the door between tlie roouis,i with ~tframC~
work over them.  The pla~foriii of tlie scales will hold eight or tell head
of cattle.  There is a gate at either end of the iiiclosure where the scales 
254
are.  Tlie cattle are driven through tbe first gate on 0 the platform, and
that gate is closed; then they are on the platform and are weighed; and
as soon as they are weighed the man who stands at the other gate opens
it aiid they pass out into the other corral.
Q. NY hen they are weighed, who weighs them; Wi) ~ takes the weight ~
A. The chief clerk is generally tlie man who weighs them.
Q. Does he announce the weight?
A. No, sir; he does not.
Q. Do they drive on to the scales ordinarily all kinds, iiieludiiig calves,
O~ws, and small cattle?  A. Yes, sir; mixed.
Q. NYhat should you judge to be the weight of tlie smallest cattle
weighed there duriiig last year?
A. ~~ell, sir, 1am a poor judge of the weight of beef-cattle.  I never
weighed one in my life.  It was very seldom there were ai~y two-yearolds, oiily a veiw few; seldom aiiy less than tbree-year-olds.
(?- NVere there any large cattle among them
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And some small ones
A. Large and ~mall-the different sizes-such as you would find in
any ordinaiy herd of Texas cattle.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. What is your understanding of the term "beef," when you speak
amoiig yourselves of beef-of beef-cattle?
A. We speak of "beef" here among ourselves as beef butchered, and of
"beef-cattle" as cattle on the hoof.
Q. Do you have any standard by which you estimate what a beefanimal is, whether it is a cow or a yearling; a four-year-old or a three.
year-old, &e.?
A. A beef-animal, wherever I have been, is an ox, four, five, six, seven,
or eight years old.  Everything above a calf is called a beef.
By ~~r. FAULKNER:
Q. llave you ever know ii a circumstance, or have you ever liad sat isfactory iiiformation of a circumstance, where any of the Government
goods brought here for distnbution have been otherwise disposed of
thaii in the regular course of distribution to the Indians?
A. No, sir, I have not; not a particle-not a pound or a dollar's worth
of anything.
Q. By whom are you paid for your services?
A. I am paid here by the agent.
Q. Are you iii the employ of the agent?
A. Yes sir.
Q. As an interpreter do you not get a salary from the Government inUelien~lent of any compensation that the agent gives you?
A. No, sir.
By ~Ir. IlARRIS:
Q. Are you boarded at the agency?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that your pay includes board and salary?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Rave you the entire confidence of the Cheyennes?
A. Yes, sir, pretty much. What way do you mean ~
Q. Do you consider it at all your duty to see that ~he Cheyennes receive what belongs to them? 
255
A. 0, yes; they look to me to.help them in that way; they have no
one else. I am the only man who can talk- their language.
Q. Do they ever complain to you?
A. Yes, sir, very often. If things don't go just to suit them, they turn
round and give me a raking.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q Do~ they regard you as a friend atid protector
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. Do you regard yourself in that light?
A. Yes, sir. I have been amongst them a great while. In fa~t, I Ii ave
raised a family of children by one of their women.
Q. Then you are married to one of their tribe?
A. Yes, sir.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. And you feel an interest it) looking after th~ir welfare?
A. Yes, sir.               -
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. Does your family draw rations the same as the Itidians ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you do not draw rations yourself?
A. No, sir.  I board here at tlie.agency.
Q. llow far from here do you keep your family?
A. About three hundred yards.
(?.Do you Ii ave coffee in your family from the supply furiiislied to the
agency?        -
A. Ye~, sir.
Q. Will you look at that, [sample of coffee shown,J and tell me how
it coin pares with coffee issued to your family duriiig the year 1871 and
thus far dunng the present year?
A. Some of our coffee varied; some was fully as good as that. N\~e had
some that was not as good. Perhaps the coffee we had in 1873 was not
as good as this; it was more like damaged coffee; it had a great deal
more of these black grains in it-nearly one-third of it.
Q. ~Vas the coffee which was supplied to the agency in the years 1874
and 1875 equal or inferior to the coffee now shown you?
A. I think some of it was as good and some not as good.
Q. Do you coiisider this as good as any you received?
k Yes, sir; I think it is.     -
&~. ~o that is a specimen of th~~best coffee yoti had here?
A. As a general thing the 1875 coffee was as good as that ~pecimeii.
I have some of it in my house 110w.
Q. lIave you any that is worse thaii that in your house?
A. No, sir.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. What was the quality of the coffee that was issue~l here during
last fail and "-inter nnd spring?
A. This last fall I don}t thin~ the coffee we got was quite as good as
that.
Q. Was it ordinarily go~d~coThe?
A. Yes, sir; I never h~ard tht Indians grumbling about tlie coffee at
all.  They simply said they w6uld f~refer white sugar itistead of brown.
 
25(3
By Mr. llA~RIS:
()~Vliat do you understand by " white sugar?"
~ ~Vhat you call "`Government crushed,'~ 1)ure wi~ite.
(? lIave they ever had any of it distribute~l to tlie;n ~
A No, sir; but they sa~ that is tlie kind they see the whites use when
they go to see the Great Father in NVashii~gton, uiid they woul~i like to
have that kind issued to them.
Q.llow does the sugar wbich is now being issued at tlie ageiiQv wliicl~
you have seen coin pare with the sugar which you received during the
years 1S74 and 1~75
A.Duriug the years 1S74 and 1S75 we received two diffurent kinds of
sugar here.
~? How does this compare with the best?  [S'~0iiple of sugar shown.]
A.Soitie was siniiiar to this and some was a good de'tl lighter iii color.
By the CllAiRMAN:
~~` ~~as any of it wet and heavy that you saw?
A.Yes, sir; some brown sugar something like this was wet; it got
damaged it \~as about like this.
By ~Ir. HARRIS:
Q.N\~oI)'t you look in the barrel in the other room in which there is
quite a quai)tity, and tell us how that compares with the darkest sugar
you received?
A.[After looking.] That is some of the same sugar.
By ~1r. FAitLKNLR:
Q.I am I]Ot entirelv satisfied upon one point. You say you are paid
by the agent does not that pay come out of the appropriatioil made
by Congress ~
A.Certainly. I inisunder~tood you. I am paid l~y the Government
through the agent.
By the CRAIRMAN:
Q.You have often becii to CheyenAe ~
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Have you b~eu to Cheyenne over the different routes-the one
they haul the freight over aiid the one by the way of Fort Larawie, and
the mail-route ~
A.Yes, sir. I have been over the whole three of them.
Q.(tuhorseback?
A.~es, sir; horseback and wagon.
Q.N\~ell, what do you mei~ who travel on these routes estimate the
distance by the usual traveled road over which they haul freight from
Cheyenne to thisplace@.
A.~Ve used to call it, before it was meisured, one hnndred and sixty
miles, by the way they haul freight.
(~. Have you been from here to Sidney?
A.No. I have never been on the road to Sidney since they made
that road, although I was here when the road was made.
By Mr. HARRiS:
Q.~Yho made it?
A.It was only made through here tl')is year; it was just tracked
through there a year ago. ~~~ make a road in this country by takiiig a
wagou an~l making a track, and following it up; th~re is no work done
on it. 
257
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. llave yoii talked with the iiien who have hauled fl~ight from Sidney here?
A. Yes, sir  I have spoken to a great nial)y ()f tl)C110.  There is a difference of opinion amolig them.  So~iie say they would rather haul from
Cheyenne, a~d others say they would rather haul frota Sidn~v  but I
have never been over the Sidney road myself.  So far as tite ~listaiice is
concerned, I don't thiiik myself there is a differe'ice of live miles.
Q. And you are not pr~pared to say as to which is tlie better road?
A. No, sir.  I have never been over the road.  I have been through
the country there before there was any road tracked out, but I could not;
sav what kind of a wagon-road it is.
q. ~Vhat is the general feeling and disposition toward the niilitarv
among the Indians that you have`talked and are acquaiitted with`.
~Vhat is their general feeling toward the soldiers here?  J)o they feel
kindly toward them ~
A. They don't want then~.  They don't feel as if they wanted them in
their country.  They don't want anything to do with them.
Q. Those Indians told us this morhing that if they receive~l ten days'
rations at one time they will last th~ni otily seven days, and if they receive seven days' rations they will last them only four days.  Ilow is
that? Doyouknow?
A. I will explain to you how thaf is.  Indians when they get their
rations don't do like white people.  They don't take the'n home to their
houses and store them.  They take them right in and commence making
feasts, and as long as they have anything to eat they cook it and call
their friends in from one lodge to another and eat until it is all gone.
They have no forethought.  They don't save for to-morrow.
By Mr. FAU1~KNER:
Q. ~~uId not that difficulty be obviated by giving them a larger
quantity?
A. No, sir; it would make it worse.  The more they get, the more
they cook, and the more they will waste.
Q. The custom among them is, as I understand it, that no particular
family keeps its rations for itself alone, but so long as they have anything to eat it must be given to any one who comes in and wants it?
A. Yes, sir; they must cooL- and give hi'n something to eat as long as
they have aiiything. Perhaps the man they are cooking for has eaten
twenty times that day.
Q. That is a universal custom among all the Indians ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that what they have is in common, to be partaken of byany
one who comes along ~
A. Yes, sir; as long as it lasts.
~ Q. I don't think you understood the other question that I asked you.
Considering those very habits you ascribe to the Indian, would it not be
more expedient to distribute the rations every week than every ten
days?
A. Yes, Sr; I misunderstood you.  The oftener the dis(ribution, the
less liable they are to waste.  They would waste less by receiving rations every ~even days than every ten days.
By Mr. liARRIS:
Q. ~~hat (10 voll know about intoxicating liquors having bcen:sold
here to the f~d~ans ~
17 1 F 
258
A.N\rell, there has bee~ very little of that done at this agency. Of
course, now and then a ca~\e of that kind happens; but it is all over before aiiy one knows anythii~g about it.  There have been some Mexicans
up here who would slip in~o camp with a keg of whisky and trade it
off and be gone. Of course the Indian won't tell you where he got the
whisky.
Q.llave you known any of the employ~s about tite agency to be intoxicated 011 any occasion?
A.No, sir; there is a rule to discharge any one that is drunk. They
discharged two or three a few days before you came here.
Q.Then you.have trouble of that kind here?
A.0, yes; they will have it.  I think they get the most of it here at
the fort-at the military post.  I don't think there is much whisky
comes directly here to the agency.
Q.llave the traders been in the habit of trading it out here?
A.No, sir.
Q.~Vill you tell us with regard to the habit of seduction of Indian
women; whether that has been practiced or attempted by anybody
abont here?
A.A great many men come here, such as loafers and men coming
in here, who try to get hold of a woman to keep her for the purpose of
getting rations and living here.
Q.llow is it with the Indian women as a rule-take females of the
Sioux Nation; are they ordinarily chaste, what yon would call virtuous,
according to their mode of life and ideas of virtue?
A.Yes, sir; it is considered all right for a man to have as many
wives as he can support.
Q.Are the women inclined to be loose in their habits before marriage?
A.No, sir; there is very little of that among them.
Q.llow is it with the young females that come round here; are they
liable to fall into the hands of bad men?
A.0, yes; they will do it; those that come around and hang
round.
Q.llave you known of any person employed about the agency to be
guilty of anything of that sort?
A.No, sir; none of the employes.
Q.llave any been discharged for that re'is~n?
A.No, sir; I don't remember of any  th~re~ might have been; but I
don't remember.
Q.llave you ever beard Red Clond or an~ of the chiefs complain of
white men seducing members of their families?
A.No, sir; but I heard them complain of white men marrying Indian girls, and living a while with them, and then going away and leaving them, and, perhaps, leaving a child.
Q.That is done for the purpose of drawing rations at the agency ~
Q.It has been done; but I don't think it is done much at the present
time.
By Mr. ATiiERT0N~:
Q.You speak of the Indians feeling obliged to feed each other so
long as they have anything to eat.  llave they any means among themselves of preventing persons who are lazy from living on them in tha~
way?  That is, persons who do not contribute any; persons who are
lazy.
A.N9, sir; what you call a lazy n an they don't know anything
about. 
259
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. They are all lazy, you think
A. Yes, sir; they are.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Agaiii, when you say they bold everythiiig in common, you do
iiot ~~~~ l~y that, as I understand, that each fltu~ily considers what it
owns is equally the possession of the others?
A. 0, no; they use it up among one another.
Q. N\hen yousaytbey hold all things in common, you mean they hold
themselves bound to exercise a constant hospitality ~
A. Yes, sir' the man who cai~ feed out what be has got, first, is tbe
biggest man.
By ~[r. llAR~RIS:
Q. Is there any difference with refereiice to chastity between the
females of the Arapahoes and Cheyennes ~
A. 0, yes; the Arapahoes are loose; three-quarters of them are
prostitutes, and a part of the other fourth, I presume.
Q. And they prostitute themselves with the whites aiid anybody that
comes along?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does that apply to the young wom~n or to the mari-ied women, or
both?
A. All of them, I believe, and the old women, too-young and old
alike, that are big enough.
Q. Is it not considered disreputable among them?
A. No, sir; I don't think it is.  It is among the Cheyennes and
Sioux; but I don't think the Arapahoes look at it in that ~~~ much.
Q. Do you owe your appointment to Dr. Saville alone? That i5, did
you get your appointment from him?
A. Yes, sir; he wrote on to get it for me.
Q. Were you here at the time be came to take charge of the agency?
A. About two months later.
Q. Where were you when be came here?
A. I was up north, and I went with tlie Indians to ~Yasbington as an
interpreter,
Q. Did you know Dr. Saville before he canie l~ere?
A. Yes, sir; I knew Dr. Saville in Denver City, Colorado.
By ~Ir. ATHERTON:
Q. llave you had any conversatioii with Dr.~Saville, or with any one
else, about the testimony that you wei'e to give before this commission?
A. I have not, sir.  I did not know I should have to come here before I was called.
By Mr. llARRIs:
(? You were never informed that you would be likely to be called
before the commission ~
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see any flour of last yeai~s su~~ply which was iiot branded'.
A. Yes, sir; Some sacks caine bere that were not branded.  I am not
l)o~itive, but I think they were sent back.
Q. ~Vhat was the character (`f that flour?
A. Some of it was an inferior grade of flour  I helped to pick out
soiiie of the sacks myself to be selit back.
Q. Do you know whether any flour caine here that was not ii~ dt~uble
sa~~ks q 
260
A. No, sir; if there did, I never saw it.
`).~Vhere do you take your meals,?
A. In the mess-house of the agei}cy.~
Q. N\~here do yon get the flour from
k It is taken f~oin the com!J)iss~ry.
Q. I understand that, in additiou to tltc duties ~f`111 interpr~ter, you
act as marshal.
k Yes, sir.
Q. What do you thiiik is tl~e dispositioii of the Iiidians toward the
Governmeiit?
A. J think the majority of them are well inclined.
Q. What (10 you thiuL of their agricultural prospects-of the possibility of their ~naking any progress on the reservation as an agricultural
pcoi)le?
A. I thii0k it would take some time.
Q. Can it be done I
A. There is no place bere to do it.
Q. Have you ever been in the Black Hills region t
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How does that locality comp~re with this I
A. It is not much better.  There are some small valleys among the
bills that could be cultivated.
Q. Do you know whether or not many of the Indians live up in the
Black H ills I
A. No, sir  the Black Hills country has always been a kind of reserved piece of ground; it is not inhabited; the Indians used to go to
tlie foot of the hills for deer aiid elk.  They have not beeii iii the habit
of caniping or living there.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. What do you mean by saying it is reserved I
A. They call it a sort of sacred place; they call it "~fedicine-place;"
that ~~`t~5 sacred.
Q. They incline to the prairie or the plain rather than to the mountainsl
A. You seldom see the CheyCunes, Sioux, or Arapahoes go to tlie
mountaii)s.  Recently some of th~ Northern Indians have been going up
to the Big Horn country to hunt, because buffiloes are scarce.
Q. Can you tell why the Cheyeunes and Arapahoes are not willing
to go south, to the Indian Territory, with the other Indians I
A. Yes, sir; they claim this country as theirs.  They say it originally
belonged to them.  When I first caine here it was called the Cheyenne
and Arapahoe country all the way from the Bad Lands, ii~cluding the
Black Bills.  ~Iost of the Ch~yenues and Arapahoes who are here
now, about White I~iver and the North Platte, have been born and raised
here, aiid that is the reason ~~ hy they don't like to leave this country.
Q. Have you any means of estimating the number of Sioux who are
fed here I
A. There would not be any correct way of doing it uiiless you went
around and couiited them.  We counted them liSt wii~ter before they
`hew their annuity-goods.
Q. How di(i you ~ouiit them I
A. We went into each lodge, and took down the number of the family.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Are the Indians inclined to claim supplies for more people than
~hey have in their families I 
261
A. O~ yes, sir; they will do it ${l jhe tiii~e if you don't watch them
mighty close.
Q. Do you know of their in~~~~~ any opposition to their being
counted9.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~~hat sort of opposition did they make?  N\~hat did they do or
say ~
A. Last fall, when we started out to count them, some of them reflised
to be counted, and it was some time before we could talk them into it
at all; they said the Governiiient wanted to swindle them  and cheat
the in, and would not allow the iii sup~lies for as many people as they
really ii ad. Some stood out four or five days.
Q. ~Vhat is the nverage number of ~eople to a lodge?
A. I forget what the Sioux would bverage.
Q. N\~liat would the Cheycunes average ~
A. I thiiik it is eight to a lo~]ge.~
~? Tlie Sioux iiiore or less?
A. Less.
Q. Tlie Arapahoes how many? -
A. The Aral)ahoes more.  Some of their lo~lges have t~vo or three
families in one lo~lge. At the little fight tli~v liad with tlie Snake In
dians aiid some others, they lost nially of their lodges, and had to double
up several fi~niilies in a lodge.    -
Ly the CllAIPMAN:
place A?- S a general thing, liow bug do they keep their lodges in one
A. A luouth is a long tiiiie for an Indian to stay iii ~ii~ one place.
Ly Mr. llARP~I5:
Q. N\~hy is that?
A. I Suppose when they ca~iip a mouth it becomes filthy and dirty,
and they move to a clean cnn~p.
Q. They don't take aiiy pains to clean their camp?
A. No, sir; th~v will let it go until it gets too filthy. It is easier for
them to move their camp thaii to move away the filth.
TESTI~1ONY OF H. F. FAi~XHAM.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Question. How long have you lived in this section of the country?
Answer. Since November a year ago; two yeirs next November.
Q. ~fr. Faruhain, you were here last November?
A. Yes, sir; I was.
Q. And December?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you no means of kiiowing with aiiytliiiig like accuracy te
number of Indians that were getting sul)plies at this age-icy?
A. I have n~t.
(~.Do you know anything of tlie nu'~iber of Northerii Si~~ux who came
in here temporarily during the winter?
A. I do not. I was sick for nearkv six weeks iii tlie wii ter, an~1 during that time I did not leave tlie house. At aiiy other tinie, t (10 not kitow
how ninny In~lians were here from the north or aiiywliere else.
-  -r~ - 
Q. Did you go with Professor~Iarsh up into the Bad Lands after bone~~
A. I did.
Q. Did you hear nothing of ally Northern Sioux being camped on th
other side of ~Vhite River before yon started
A. I did not.
Q. Did you see any camped there when yon went along there ~
A. ~Ve saw some camps, I think two; I (10 not ttiiiik either one of
them were Northern Sioux, but whether they were or not I am not able
to state positively.
Q. ~Vere you ever at the issuing of beef, abont the 5th or 14th of last
November ~
A. I am not positive about the date; I cannot remember when I
started to the I3ad Lands with the Professor, butt I was here before that,
and most of the time after we came back.
(~.Did you in the fall see a i~umber of issues of beef ~  Do you know
anything about tlie issue of beef here I
A. I do not, sir; I never was at the corral; I liad 1)0 business
ti ere.
Q. You did not know what kind of beef was issued I
A. No, sir; I did not, no more than that they were Texas cattle.
(2 Have you frequently seen the kind of cattle that have been issued
here I
A. Not freqiiei~tly, sir; I did see son~e last summer two or three
issues.
Q. Do you remember what kind of cattle they were 1
k ~V~ll,no; I never paid aily atteiitioii to them.
Q. ~V~re they steers and cows I
k I ii ever paid n~uch attention to them; I think, though, they were
mostly steers.
Q.`five you ever dealt in cattle or had much to do with them so as
to be able to judge I
k' I never han~lled cattle iii my life.
Q. ~Vliat have you been doing in this country since you have been
here; what kind of business do you follow I
A. I 11 ave worked at liboring work n~ost of tlie tiiiie; I worked for
~Ir. Deer, and workeil at the noency i)art of tlie summer.
(~.You had no information, theii, as to the number of Indians that
we ic supl)lied here at this agency I
A. ~o, sir; I had 110 means of kiiowing: they camp on different
creeks some distaiice from the ageiley; iiobody livii~g here ~ho did not
make it his business would be al~le to tell without goilig tlie rounds.
Q. Did you see the issue of aniiuity.goods here list fall
A. Ibart of it.
Q. Did y~u notice tlie blankets that were isslled theii?
A. I ii ever iioticed then' p'lrticularly.
Q. Have you silice notiee~l those blankets aiiioi)g tlie In~liaiis
A.    sir; I never examined them.  I have seen tlie Indiaiis have
blankets marked  U. S. I. D."
Q. Do you speak the Sioux lai~guage
k Ye~, sir; a little.
(2.Did you ever hear the Iiidiaiis coinpl~iii~ing about their blaijkets ~
A. Never did.
~2 Did you ever hear them complaining any about thuir rations I
A. Never (lid; not a word oiily about tlie ~uaiitity.
Q. That they ought to have more I
A. I often hear~l them eoiiil)laiu that they were hungry, but I never
heard them say it was anybody's fault. 
2~3
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. You did not know how many Northern Sioux came down; haven't
you any idea of how many Sioux belonged at the agency and have been
fed here for some time?
A. I ha~-e not. I never heard anybody s~y. ai~d I took no pains to find
out.
Q. You could not give any ~ti-nate?
A. No sir.
Q. Yoii were not here wh~n Proiessor ~farsli was heic
A. I was.
Q. Before he went bone.hunting
A. Yes, sir.
(~.Did not yon see ally cattle that were delivered to the Indiaiis at
the time he was here?
A. No, sir; I did not.  The Profe~or weiit down to the corral, but I
(lid not go.
Q. Did you see any of tlie cattle after they had beeu tnriied out to
the Indians?
A. No, sir.
Q. All you can say is that the two issues that you saw last summer
were Texas cattle?  Can't you tell us whether there were any cows
among them, or what their size was ~
A. I am not any judge of cattle; they were good beef-cattle.
Q. Were they small or large cattle ~
A. I do not know.  They were good, large cattle; average cattle, I
should judge.
Q. Was there a good deal of difference in their size?
A. ~Vell, no; not that I saw; there is a difference in all c;ittle, but I
did not see any great differeiice in those cattle.
Q. Have you seen Mr. Bosler since he came here the other d'iy?
A. Yes,sir.
Q. Have you talked with him about this matter ~
A. No, sir.
Q. Had no conversation with him about it?
A. Had no conversation to atnouiit to aiiytliing.
Q. Baveii't you heard any talk about the cattle which lie d~livered
here liSt year ~
A. I have not; never.
C~. You haven't now, at this time?
A. No, sir; in fact I never heard liiu~ S;ty a w~~r4.
(~.Neither of tlie Messrs. Bosler
A. No, sir.
Q.  ~Vhat are you now doing here
A.  At l)resent I am uneinpl~yed.
~~. Iii what way were you ein~~loyed last?
A.  The last thing I doiie was, I c'iiiie iii fr{~iii tlic liqiie-fi~~l~ls  I had
been gitlierilig fossils for I~rofessor Thttrsli.  i'li;it w~~s olt th~`~:3d or
~4th of June, ()f the preseiit yetr.
Q.  Then you are iii correspoiideiie~ with him  about bones  you work
for him ~
A.  I have worke~l for him   I in'~4' ai4 agree iieiit with liii ~~lien lie
left here last fall that I wonl~l coll~ t~-t fossils tor hiiil, aiid doiie so`is far
as I ~i~uIil.  The Indiaiis st{)i)l)e(l i~ie`it first.
(? Did you hear itini at the tiiiie lie was here refer to tlie flt~t {}f bad
ritions, bad tobacco, bad sugir, 0  1)1(1 tli)ilr beiiig issni'd ti) tlie Iii dians ~. 
264
A. I heard the Professor t(~lk with ~rajor Burt, of the Ninth Ii~fantry,
and heard him say that 1~ed ~`~lon~l had laid son~e eoii)plaints before him.
~).But von did not hear I~C(l Cloud make the complaints himself?
~. No; I was not at the council.  I stayed over at tlie store.
~? Haven't yOu seen flour issued here to the Indians
~. Yes, sir.
(? ~~hat is the character of the flon? you have seen?
A. ~~ery good flour, as far as I have seen  as good flour as is sold
here by the traders.
Q. I)o the tra~lers sell the same flour?
A. Not that I ever kiiew of.
(~.Have you ever seeu any flour in the hands of tiaders marked " U.
S.I. D. ~~
A. I have not.
(? Have you seen any bad flour in the hands of tlie Iiidiaiis, that
which was too dark- and bad to be useflil?
A. No, sir; I never seeji but very little that was d;~m aged at all, and
that had probably lain on the ground and been damage~l.
(~.You have seen that?
A. Yes, sir; but very little of that.
~? have you lived amol)g the Indians; h ave you leen aequaii~tcd
with the Iiidiaiis elsewhere?
A. I ii ave not lived among the Indians.
Q. I mean so as to ki)ow them ~
A. I have been ill this vicinity ever since 1S67.
~~ Thei~~fore you are well ae~1uainted with tlie Sioux I)eol)le?
A. Sonewbat; not well.  I am pretty well <`icquainted with i~ed
Cloud~s batid.
Q. In your interviews with 1~ed Cloud lias he ever coii~plaiiied to you
about his rations ~
A. He i)ever has.
Q. Have you seeii him frequeiitly?
A. Seeii him proba~ily twice a week.
Q. Seen him at his tent?
A. I never was at the lodge.
Q. You worked for Mr. Deer in the store here.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you heard any Indians complain of their rations when U~~v
went in the store?
A. No, sir; I do not thiiik I have.
Q. Have you ever heard them express any feeling toward Dr. Savilleany of the Jndians with whom you ar~ familiar?
A. ~~ell, I have; but nothing that amounted to anything.  Of course
they are a very trifliiig peo~~le, and say a great many trifling things
some sI)eak against him and some for him.
Q. N\~hat`lo those say of him who speak against him?
A. They say a great many things.
Q. Do they accuse him of anything i)articular, of any particular act ~
A No; I do not know as they do.
Q. ~Vhat have you heard any of them say?  If you can call to mind
the worst charge you have heard them make agailist him, I wish you
would state it.
A. I never heard any very bad charges made agailist him; I do not
know as I could call to mind aiiy.
Q. Then you simply know the fact that some of tlie Iiidians dislike
him and some like liim? 
2(35
Y Yes, sir.
Q. B~t you say flow you`iever heard ally sI)eeifie charge of fraud
~nade by any Indian ~
A. Never did.
Q. Or deception ~
A. Never did.
Q. Or unfairness in dCal~[l~j~~~th them`.
A. Never did.
Q. And yon have beeii here all the tinie, except when you have been
oft on this bone business?
A. And twiee, I think, I have beeii to Cheyenne aiid Fort Laramie
with ~1r. Deer.
()~. Otherwise you have been here close to the ageiicy all the time?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. ATllLRTON:
(~.~Vhile you were associated with Professor ~Iarsh last f;ill, did you
have any conversation with him, make iny st'itemeiits to lii in respecting your estiinate of the nuniber of Indiaiis at tlie ag~~iicy?
A.No sir; I do not think the Professor ever sl)oke to me anything
about Iiidian affairs at all, no more thaii OliC day wheii I was ~~i~king
up the fossils at the fort, Spider and Sword caine lip tliei~, aiid I believe
they asked him for some little preselit, aiid tlie Profcssor niade one of
them a little present, and theii be told tlieiii tli'it I~ed Cloud liad asked
him to show to the Presideiit those saii0l~Ies-soine samples of poor grub
which, I believe, the professor had, aiid lie lia~l a~i'eed to do it, aii~l lie
wanted me to tell the Intliaiis that he would m;il~e iiis word good, and
I think that is all the talk tlie Professor had with me; that was all tlte
business he had with me at that time.
Q. But you iiever gave him any estimate of tlie number of Indians
~`hieh you sup~~osed were entitled to ti~a~ su~~plies here?
A. I do not think I (li(l.  I have giveli you all I remember of any
talk I liad with him.
By Mr. llARRtS:
Q. Did he show any specimens of grub to tt)ose Iiidiaus
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. ~Vhat did they say in reply to him?
A. They did not make aily reply at all  they wanted money; they
did not appear to care to have any complaint made; they did iiot urge
the matter or say anything about it; they waii ted pay for those bones
the Professor had taken as fossils.
TL'STIMONY OF ~IITCHLLL JAP~YIS.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Question. ~~hat eountrym~u are you?
Answer. I am from New Thlexico, north of Saiita F('.
Q. Bow lo~ig have you been at the 1~ed Cloud agency?
A. Just abi~ut four ~~~`l~5.
(~.~Vhat h~ve you beeji doiii~ here ~
A. I have been her~ling c;ittie oiie ye'ir for ~[r. G~oig~ aiid three
years for the igent.  ~Ir. C~eoi'ge was a  iiiati wlio h;id a (olitrict here
the first ~ear. 
266
Q. Yon helited drive c ttle into the corral abont th~t time ~
A. Yes, sir; aiid after \ihey are weighed then I take care of them, and
take them down to the h~r(i.
Q. Do you remember what kind of cattle yOfl had here last f-ill?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In Noven~ber and D~cemher?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~Vhat kind of cattle were they ~
~. Texas cattle; mighty good-sized cattle.
Q. Steers?
A. Steer~ anti a few cows.
(~.~~~ell, iii the winter and in tiie spring did you hive mostly steers ~.
A. Tiie ~ame way, some cows and some steers.
Q. ~f ore steers than cows?
A. Yes, ~~ir more steers than cows; twice as many.
(~.~Vere there some yearlings among theill sometinies
A. Two or three.  N\~e did not count them at all.
Q. N\~as there at one time a good many yearlings?
A. No, sir.
Q. Don~t you recollect of oiie time when there were a good niany
yearlings?
A. Oiily once; they brought all the herd here and then there were
a few yearlin~s among them.
(?.Can you remember how many?
A. No; I cannot.
(~.Do you know whether they were connted or not I
A. I do not know anything about that.
Q. Do you remember on~ time when you had only seve'i c~tttle left in
the agent's herd?
A. Eight.  I was there at the herd with U~e cook, and the military
officer came and said, "Bring the herd up.  lIe win ted to see it, and
there were eight cattle altogether.
Q. ~Vhat kind of cattle were they?
A. ~Iost all cows and yearlings, oiily one be~ve; they were sai~tlI and
the Indians (lid not want to take them.
Q. The other cattle that you ha&I herded were better than these, were
they?
A. Oh, yes; take them all throngh, they were mighty good cattle.
They were the l~est cattle I ever saw.  I did not see very old cattle at
all; they were about five or six years old.
Q. \Vere all the herds that were turi~ed into tlie agelicy l;ist ill a~d
winter good cattle?
A. Yes, sir; mighty gootl cattle.
Q. Did you see any ~r them wei~hed ~
k I have beeii all the time in tlie corral.  I helped to weigh them.
Q. Do you kiiow how n~ueh they weigl~ed?
A No, I don't.  I was in the corral atid iiot at the scales.
Q. Do you remember last winter one time whe~ you ha~t 1)() l~eeves ~
A. Yes sir.
(~.That was after you had those eight head ofcattle?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.Those eigl~t head vou _ ave to the Indians did you
A. Yes, sir; they we re pretty 1iear starving an~1 we _ ave them to
them.
~~. Tlie'i you had noi~e?
A. No, sir; there were ten or fifteen days that we had 110 cattle at
all. 
2(37
Q.Do you remember when that was?
A.No; Idonot know.
Q.~Vas it before (~hristmas?
A.After Christmas; somewhere about there.
Q.How long had you had those eight head of cattle?
A.About a week, I guess.
Q.Before they were issued to the Indians?
A.Yes, sir; it was at the time of the storm.
Q.How many beeves have you got in the herd now ~
A.None.  I issued the last yesterday.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.Do you know when it was that yo~i liad only eight cattle?
A.I do not know.
Q.Did General Bradley go there?
A.I guess so; there were three officers aiid one inaii who had buckskin clothes.
Q.~~as it Professor ~Iarsh?
A.Yes, sir; the cook said it was Professor ~~arsh.
Q.That might have been before Christmas ~
A.Yes, ~ir; soinewhere along there.
Q.It was cold weather ~
A.Yes, ~ir; mighty cold weather.  Jules Ecoflbe was there at the
same time.
Q.After that, along during the spriLig, was there any time when you
bad no beef in the agency hei'd?
A.Sometimes we have no beef for twenty days.
Q.And then the Indians would be wautilig sonic
A.Yes, sir.
Q.You have no beef on hand now.
A.No; I just issued the last yesterday.
Q.Do you issue them from  the herd yourself?
A.Sometimes it is mighty hard for me.  The other felk~ws can talk
Indian, and some of the boys curse the ludians.
Q.That is, some of the herders who are with you?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.~lichael Dunn and Dick Stirk?
A.Yes. sir.
Q.And ~[oorehead?
A.No  he is the cook.  Some of tlie Iiidians u~idersta~~d Eiiglisii
words.  They come to me and s~~~,  NVhat does lie me'tn?  lIe cursed
me bad."
Q.~~hen you issue cattle to the Iridiiiis,`V hat do they do with them I
A.They kill them right`i~~~.  I j'dst cut the~n out from the herd
and the Indians kill tlieiii right away.
Q.Do the Indians grumble to you about being huiigry?
A.Yes, sir; awfully.
Q.All the time?
A.No; last spring it was`i~i~lity hard here, and tli cy gi~unil~led a
good leal, and we ha~l no beef to ive tlieiii.
Q.  ow lo lig did that state of thiiigs colitinue
A.I guess about twelity days.
~?. How many cattle did you issue yesterd~y?
A.Two steers.
Q.~~~hen did von i~sne any bef\~re thit?
A.  On tlie 3d of this nioiifh. 
2CS
Q llow many did you issue on tiie 3(1?
A. I do not know; they were issued at the corral; they were issued
on foot; they are all issued on foot.
Q. liave the cattle last fall and last winter an~t this sprilig been usi'ally good cattle, big cattle?
A. Yes, sir; good cattle, not very big.  They looked like chunky
cattle.
Q. Did they look like through Texas cattle, or cattle that liad beeii
wintered here?
A. I do 100t know  son~e looked iiiighty w~ll.
(?- Yon do not ki~ow liow long they had been up in this country ~
A. No; I do iiot kiiow.
Q. Do you spe~ik ~ny Indian?
A. Yes, sir; the Indians bother me a good deal becau~e I speak tbe
la'i gul C.
(?.~~id tlie In~lian~ ever grumble about the quality or kind of beef
tbey got; that it is n~t o-ood beef?
A. No; never gruml~led. Sometimes son~e of ~be Iiidia'is would want
a beeve aiid some wonl~t want a cow.  They like cows better thin beeves.
Q. L)id the Iii~liaiis, i!' talking to you, ever grn~nble about anything
else they g()t, and say that it was iiot good?
A. No,~~in
Q. Did they ever tell you they got any bad flour?
A. No, sir.
Q. (Jr aliy bad colTee?
A. ~o, s~r.
~?- II;ive you been in tlteir tepees or lodges?
A. ~ 0, sir; only iii the corral.
(~.I~o they CO[))C to talk to you often?
A. No, sir; only when they come after beef.
By Mr. ATllFRToN:
Q. Now much tlo these beef cattle generally weigh?
A. I do not know.
Q. You could iiot tell by your own judgment about how much?
A. No, sir.
By ThIr. FAULThNLR:
Q. Now (lid those eight cattle that you spoke of compare in size and
quality with the general issues of cattle to the In~lians?
A. They were smill cattle, bnt not very poor either; they were good
to eat, but small; they were the tail-end of the herd.
Q. Now did they coin pare with the cattle that were generally issued'.
Were they larger or smIler? ~Yere they a fair sample of all the cattle?
Were they as good as the rest?
A. They were small; they were what we call yearlings. They were
smaller than the other cattle.  The Indians did not wamit to take them
the first time.
By Mr. NARRiS:
Q. Were there no other cattle issued during that ~C'i~ like those eight?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were there iion~ as small?
A. No,sir.
Q. Were there not any poor one~ among them?
A. No; tli ey were good size. These eight were the tail-end of tbe
cattle, and were sinall omies.  Sometimnes the cows have calves, and they
grow up. 
2o9
Q.During that year were any calves driven in with the herd f.
A.Mighty few calves.
(~. Were they weighed?
A.No, sir; they let them go.
Q.Are yon sure about that?
A.I am pretty near cert~tiu.
Q.How many calves or yeariiiigs came in with the cows?
A.Three, or four, or five; soiiietinies hone; sometimes one.
Q.Don't you remember one time when there were fifty or sixty of
them?
A.No, sir.
Q.Don't you remen~ber a time when they turiied them out, and let
the Indians kill them?
A.No, sir.
Q.You think they did not couiit them for beef
A.I kiiow they ditl not.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.How do you know?
A.Mr. Bosler gave me one. He said, "You can take that one; it
does not count for a beeve."
By Mr. llAR~IS:
Q.Did you hear him say so to any Indian?
A.No, sir.
Q.How many times do you think you have been without cattle here
for twenty day~~
A.I don't know.
Q.Do you remember what you stated to the military officer ~
A.He just wanted to see the cattle.
Q.Didn't you say an~thing to him after you brought them ~
A.No, sir.  Jules Feoffee aske~l if these were all the cattle, and I
said, "Yes; they are all the cattle I have on band."
By Mr. ATllERTON:
Q.What other herder was with you at the time?
A.Oliver Appleton.
TEsTIMONy OF RICHAP~I) STIli~I&.
By the CHATRM~N:
Q.How long have you been at this agency?
A.I have been at this agency going on a year now.
Q.What have you been doing here?
A.I have been with this herd of cattle going on four months.
Q.What did you do betore that?
A.I worked for the man that lives here at the agency, driving teams
on the road. His name is David Coche.
Q.Did you see the herds of beef that were brought in to the agency
here last fall?
A.No, sir.
Q.Did you see those that were brought here last win er?
A.I saw some last winter; I have not seen ariy only Si ice I have been
on the herd; I was not here before that more than tour or five days at
a time. 
270
Q Ilave you had some experience in herding cattle
~.Yes, sir; I have done right sin art of it.
Q.You have herded cattle before iiow?
A.Yes, sir.
(~. ~Vhat kind of cattle are those tl}at you generally have here
A.Pretty fair cattle; Texas cattle.
Q.Steers and cows
A.Yes, sir.
Q.About what proportioii of cows   \Yere there liore steers than
cows?
A.Yes, sir: they would average more st~ers than cows; not a great
many more.
Q.~Vere there sometimes yearlings amoiig theni?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.About how many yearlings to a herd would they average since
you have been here?
A.Since I have beeii here I never noticed over eight or teli yearlings
in a herd.
Q.Do you know what became of the yearlings?
A.The Iiidians have killed some of them.
Q ~Vere they issued to them?
A.No, sir; they issued no yearlings to them.
Q So von don't k~ow anything about the cattle issued last winter I
A.No, sir.
Q NN~ell, did you notice the weighing of the cattle; ltow it is done
here?
A.I know how they weigh; I see them weighed and help them weigh
them.  I am in 4ie corral with the cattle all the time when they weigh
them; I drive them from one corral on to tiie scales.
Q.Don~t those yea din gs go on to the scales too?
A.No, sir-yes, sir; some. I have noticed when the yearlings went
on Bosler~s men would not count the yeadings with the other cattle.
They weighed them but told the men not to count them, and to allow so
much oil' on the reckoiiing of their weight.
Q.Do you know what one of those steers will weigh generally-an
average of them-not what the biggest won ld weigh nor the smallest,
but an average?
A.I shonl&i judge they would go from six to six hundred aiid fifty or
seven hundred; and some go eight hundred on the hoof.
Q.And the cows would weigh about how much?
A.The cows would generally average about six hundred and fifty or
seven hundred.
Q.Then the average of the steers would iiot be more than thit of the
cows?
A.No, sir: I don't think it would.
Q.Are those steers which you have seen thus far usually three-yearolds or fonr.year-olds or older?
A.From three to five I should judge.
Q.You speak of having driven a team wlieii you were 11')ulii)g
freight?
A.From Cheyeniie and Sidney.
Q.N\'hich is the longer road?
A.The Cheyenne road, I thiiik.
Q.~Yhich is the better road?
A.I thiiik the Sidiiey road is a little the better road, t~ke it ill
through. 
271
Q.  About how much difference do yoii think there is iii the distance
etween the two?
k.  About forty miles.
Q~. It is that much nearer from here to Sidney than from here to Cheyenne?
A.  Yes, sir; between thirty and forty miles.
Q.  You do not speak the I1Id~('tI1 language?
A.  No, sir; not much. I understand a little, aitd talL a little.
Q.  The Indians nnderstai~~l a little Li~gli~h
A.  Some of them do, and some do not.
By ~rr. HARRIS:
Q. I understand you to say you thinl tlie weight of the steers would
be from six hundred and fifty to eight hni~dred pounds?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. have you seeii any that you thought would average a thousand?
A. I don't thil)k I have.
Q. You have seen all the cattle delivered here for four months?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are testifying from your own judgment rather than from any
knowledge of what they weighed f.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the cows from 650 to 800; about the same?
A. Yes, sir; I don't think there is much difference.
Q. Now, when the cattle come here, when they are driven here by
Bosler's men, they are driven right to the corral and then put in?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How soon after they get here are they usually weighed?
A. Sometimes they stand four or five hours, but they are weighed on
the same day.
Q. Have you plenty of water at the corral?
A. No, sir.
Q. ~Vhere is the nearest water to fl~e corral?
A. About half a mile above the corral.
Q. ~~here do they generally water the cattle before they are brought
to the corral?
A. At a little creek, called the Little ~Vhite Clay.
Q. Do they generally water them after they come in
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know anythiiig about how much a good-sized thirsty steer,
that has not had any water for twenty-four hours, would driiik wheii
he got a chance?
A. I don't know.
Q. Can you form any idea?
A. Be would drink enough to make him weigh several in ore pounds.
Q. Can you tell how many pailfuls he would drink?
A.  He would drink four or five pailflils.
Q.  Do you know what the practice is about letting cattle drink before
they are weighed at that corral ~
A. \o, sir.
Q.  You don~t water them
A.  No, sir
Q.  And you don't know wher~ they are watered last before beiiig
weighed?
A.  I don't kiiow, but I should ji'dge that they would let them water
at the cree1~, e~ght miles from her~.
Q.  How bug would it take to drive them eight miles 
272
~. About aii hour, or an hour and a half.
().C;~ii you drive cattle more tijali fi~e`i~iles ati hour
~~. Yes, sir  you can drive these stock cattle more thai~ that  it
n~a \ take longer; I t0ever titt~ed tl~ein.
You iinderstau~l that these cattle drank there last ~
~L. No, sir; I could fl()t say.
Q. Do you ui~deistand that tl~ey are always allowed to stop there and
drink ~
A.  I have heard tite men say that they stopped at ~~hite Clay an
hour or so.
Q.  Is it not your i&'e~ that after being watered they weigh a hundred
pounds tuore ~
A.  No, sir; I think they would not weigh any more after driving
them that far.
Q.  That is, that tltey would tiot weigh more than their ordinary
weight ~
A.  Yes, sir.
Q How matly times have you been without beef since you have been
here during tlie l~st four months ~
A.  Four ol' five times-five, I believe.
Q.  11 ave beef issues been delayed on account of that?
A.  V)i~ce or twice, I believe, the issue was ~lelayed when the cattle
were not here.
Q.  J)o you know bow long each time?
A.  Not over ten or eleveii days at a time.  They aim to issue every
ten days; they may have gone three or four days at a time over the
teil d~iys; that was during the last high water on the 1~latte.
Q.  Do you know anything about beef-hides?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Take an ox or a steer that weighs eight hundred pounds, (i'o you
kn~w liow much his hide will weigh?
A.  I don't kiiow us ever I saw one weighed.
Q.  How do ~hey sell hides, by green weight or dry weight?
A.  Green weight.
(~. Haven't you any idea how much a green hide weighs?
A.  About from sixty to seventy-five pounds.
Q.  That is the bide of a steer ~
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And I sul)l)ose in tlie same proportion for a cow N
A.  Some iiiight go over that; some are larger than others.
Q.  J)o you kiiow how much the largest would weigh?
A.  rIttere might be some that would weigh eighty pounds.
(~. Atid bow much tlie sn~allest that you know of?
A.  The sniallest I don't think would go less thaii sixty.  I never saw
them weighed.  I doii~t kiiow iiiuch about hides.
TESTI?\IONY OF OLIVFR B. APPLETON.
By the Cll~ip~AN:
Question. N\~ere you employed at one time here as her Icr`.~
Answer. Yes, sir.
Q.  N\~ere you here last fall and winter I
A.  Yes, sir. 
273
Q. Do yon remember the occasion when you had left ojily eight he~id
of cattle, and some Army officers came to look at them?
A. I remember something being said about it, but I doii't reniember
the number of cattle or what kind of cattle they were. I renieii~her hearing them speak of some officers being up thete to see the cattle.
Q. N\~ere you there at that time
A. I could not say. I was at the agency, but whetlj~'r I was stopj)ing
there or here I do not know.
Q. You do not remember the circunistauces?
A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. Do you know of a time last fall when you got out of ~-attle?
A. I know we were out of cattle soiiietime last fall, but I doii't ren~eiii.
ber dates.
Q. Wi~at kind of cattle did you have last fall as a gencial thing?
A. N\~e had very good cattle.
Q. Steers and cows?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Some yearlings among them?
A. ~~ell, the yearlings were not counted in as cattle.
Q. There were some, however?
A. Y~es; there were some.
Q. Do you remember any considerable number of them in al)y particular herd?
A. No, sir.
Q. About how many, generally, would be in a herd?
A. N\~ell, there would not very often be many yearlings. They would
be mostly small calves. Once in a while tl~ere would be a few yearlings.
Q. ~Yhat was done with the yearlings ~
A. They were issued.
Q. To the Indians?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You kept them altogether in the herd after they were turned over
to you and weighed ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see the weighing of the cattle?
A. I was iii the corral driving cattle on the scaLes, and driving them
off again.
Q. Did those yearlings go on the scales with tlie other cattle?
A. Yes, sir; thQv would.
Q. Have you a,0y knowledge of the weight of cattle?
A. No, sir; I don't know what they would weigh; I (lid iiot hear the
weight at all.
Q. llave you ever wei~
A. No, sir.       ~hcd an~- cattle yourself?
Q. Have you ever seeii any weighed?
A. I have seen tl~em weighed on the scales, but I did iiot iiotice how
much they weighed.
By ~1r. ATllERTON:
Q ~~as all the cattle in the herd weighed?
A. Yes, sir; once in a while there would be 0')e or two get mad and
run over oiit of the corral, so that we coul~l not weigh tlieiii, 111(1 we have
to average them.
Q. Did ~ou ever take a few of the cattle and average tlie rest of the
herd by th m?
A. No sir
corral.,, I don't recollect of that ~eing done while I was at tLe
18 1 F 
274
Q. Do you remember wl~en Professor ~Iarsh was here?
A. Yes, sir.
(?.Did you ever see him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Don't you remember ~~eeing hi in with the Army officers when they
wanted to see the tail-end (~f the herd you had lcft there?
A. No, sir.
Q. N\Tho else were herders with you at the time you were at the herd?
A. ~Iitchel Jarvis, and the boss herder, MeNamara; he is not here
now.
Q. Is ~~Iitchel Jarvis a pretty good jndge of catfle?
A. I don't know but he is a pretty good judge.
Q. Does be seem to understand pretty well about cattle?
A. lle understands herding, I know that.
Q. NYcre you about the agency during the time you were here, last
fall and winter?
A. 0, yes, sir; I was down here once in a while.
Q. Did you see any issues of supplies and annuity goods?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you notice what kind of supplies they were?
A. The provisions?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember of seeing some pork issued to the Indians?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. NV hat kind of pork was that?
A. It was very good pork, only it~was not the kind of pork the Indians liked. It was sound, as far as that goes, but it was mess instead
of prime.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. Prime instead of mess?
A. Yes, sir.
By the CilAiRMAN:
Q. Did you see the coffee that was issued to tbe}u?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. NY hat kind of coffee was it?
A. It was very good coffee; it was not any extra good coffee.
Q. Such as is used in the conutry here?
A. Yes, ~r; such as is used ar~und here.
Q. Did yon see any sngar issued to them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. NVhat kii0d of sugar was it?
A. ~ery good sugar; dark brown sugar- a very good quality of
brown sugar.
Q. Did you ever hear the Indians talk much about their supplies, or
grumble about the quality of them?
A. I could not tell anything abont that. I could not understand their
language.
By Mr. FM~LmN~R:
Q. ~~r. Appleton, you say that yearlings were issued to the Indians
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Upon what occasion was that, and how had you the means of
knowing that flict?
A. I was at the issuing-corral when they were issued; we had to re 
275
ceive cattle and issue them-drive them out of the corral when they
were being issned.
Q. I)o you know whether the weight of the Kearlings "-as estimated
by the agent and deducted from tiie gross weight?
A. I could not say anything about that.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. You are a nephew of Dr. Saville?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You had a brother here with the doctor, Frank, a young man who
was killed by the Indians?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~Vere you here at that tin~e?
~. No, sir.
Q. ~~hat was your brother's duty here?
A. I think he was clerk of the agency.
(~.Did he have any trouble here before he was killed?
A. Not that I ever heard of.
Q. Do you know that he wanted to get away from here?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever hear it said that he tried to go away.
A. No, sir.
Q. N\~as your father here?
A. I believe he was here at one time, when my brother was here, before he was killed.
Q. He had been employed here?
A. Yes, sir; I thiiik he hud.
Q. He built this building?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you hear him complain at all?
A. N\ho?
(~.Your brother; did you hear him coniplain of any duty he hat to
perform ~
A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. How old was he, elder or younger than yourself?
A. Eider; two years.
Q. ~Vhat is your age?
A. I am twenty.three.
Q. ~~here is your home?
A. Sioux City.
(~.Have you been a farmer~s boy, ii ving on a farm
A. No, sir; I never lived on a farm a week in my life.
Q. You have no judgment about the weight of cattle?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know anything about tlie watering of eattle before they go
to the corral?
A. No, sir.
Q. You don't know anything about where they are watered?
A. No, sir.
(?)You never watered them tl~ere yourself?
A. No, sir.
By Mr. ATHEuTON:
(~.Do you remember ally time when there were a good nl'l~~ e~l~es iii
tlie herd?
A There are most always so inc few calves in tlie herd.
Q. How many generally? 
276
A. Sometin~cs there wonid be a lot, and sorne~ii~~cs none; sometimes
five, six, eight, or ten.
Q. Do you remember when there was any unil nal number?
A. No, sir.
By Mr. BARRIS:
Q. You say there were calve~.  Yon make a distinction between
calves and yearlings
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You say the yearlings were driven on the scales and weighed;
liow about the calves?
A. They were hardly ever weighed; the Ii~dians wo~ld kill them before the cattle were weighed.
Q. Then they would not reckon at all in any way?
A. No, sir.
Q. Spring calves came in with their mothers in tlie fill aiid tl)05C the
Indians were allowed to take? A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~~ho gave instructions to that effect?
A. I don't know as anybody did; they took it into their own hands;
if they could catch a calf they would take it.
Q. No objection was made ~
No, sir.
Q. N\~ould any calves get on the scales?
A. Once in a while one might get on, but very seldom.
Q. Do you know anything about deducting their weight'?
A. No, sir.
Q. N\~ho took the weight?
A. The agent or the clerk, whoever weighed the cattle.  ~~heu the
agent was here he generally weighed them; when be was not here his
clerk did it.
RED CLOUD AGENCY, NEBRASKA,
~%`d~~esday, A llgi~st 11, 1875.
Present: lion. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman  lion. B. W. BARRIS, lio'i. CHARLES J. FAULKNER, and Prof. CEORGE W. A~HERTON.
OLIVER B. APPLETON was recalled.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. Mr. Appleton, you were at one time the co1nmissary in
charge of the provisions in the warehouse here?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember of sugar being delivered to the trader from the
commissary?
A. No, sir; I was commissary last fall wheii ~Ir. Roberts was derk.
I never heard of a'~ythiug being given to the trader, only what was in
the newspapers  I never heard of any blue cloth being given to the
trader; I never heard of anybody doing so.  The traders keel) blue
cloth, but whether it is the same quality as the Iudiaii cloth I don't
know.
Q. Do you know anything about the return of a barrel of sugar? A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Roberts said you were accused of taking goods that did iiot
belong to you.
A. I never did.  I knew who wrote the articles and paid no attention 
277
to them. I supposed it to be George Stover who wrote the artides; his
name was signed to one of them, aiid the supposition is that he was the
author of the rest of them. lle is not a reliable mall; he has the reputat ion of doing such things at the Spotted Tail agency, and oil the ~Iissouri P~iver; he was down on me because I would not give liim all the
rations lie wanted; he is a squaw-man.
P~ED CLOUD A~~~cy~, NEBRASKA,
A10)td~y, Aug~st 9, 1S77).
Present: llon. TllOMAs C. FLETeIlER, chairman; Prof. GEORGE W.
ATnER~oN, llon. B. N\ liARRIS, and llon. CllARLES J. FAULKNER.
TESTIMONY OF BENJAMIN TIBBETS.
By the CHMR~A~:
Question. What is your employment ~
Answer. Butcher, sir.
Q. For the agency here?
k Yes, sir.
Q. liow long ii ave you been here about the agency?
A. I came here, I think it was, the 6th of August two years ago.
Q. And you have been here ever since.
A. I was at the old agency before it was moved.
Q. Si?ce you have been here, have you geiierally seen the ii~ost of the
cattle that have been brought in ~
A. Yes; pretty niuch ali of them.
Q. Do you remember of seeing cattle that were brought iii here last
November?
A. No, sir; I don't know as I really remember.
Q. About the time of the cold weather before Christiiias?
A. I was here for two years all the time, and have not been away
except once to liorse Creek and oiice to Cheyenne.
Q. So you were here last fall?
A. Ye~, sir.
Q. What was the appearatice of the herds of cattle that were turned
in here last fall as coml)ared with the cattle you arc receiving now
were they as good?
A. Yes, sir; I think they were very good cattle.  I have not been
here during the last two issues, but previous to that they were as good,
or probably a little better.
Q. Were those herds that you saw delivered here last sprilig and fall
mostly composed of steers and cow~?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And some yearliiigs?
A. A few yearlings caine iii.
Q. About what proportion of steers and cows were tlier&  were th~re
more ~tecrs than cows?
A. Yes, sir  I should thiiik probably two-thir~ls SteCs aii~l oiie~third
cows I)robably more tliaii tijit.
~?- Do you remember Olie occasio'i wbeii there were a f~()()(l ill any
yearliiigs in the herd-calves arid ye;~rlin~s?
A. rIhere was one tiiiie, I tliiiik it was this last sI)riil ou l('i~t f'&}l-I
caniiot be sure which, bnt last s~)ring, I tliiiil~-~liuii thei~e wei~ a good
many yearlings in the herd. 
278
Q. Can you form an estimate of about how 110 any yearlings and cal ~cs
there were in that herd?
A. I could not say exactly.  I never paid aiiy loarticular attention to
the number probably there weie twenty five he;id aiid ~~robably Lh~~re
were not that many.
Q. Do you remember any occasion when there were left eight bead of
cattle in the herd here, and that they were exan~iiied by some military
officers and Professor ~Iarsh?
A. Yes, sir.  I remember the time.
Q. Did you sce those cattle?
A. I did not.
Q. ~Yell, the cattle that you received along last flill and winter during
cold weather, what would they average in weight, take them all around?
A. I should think they would go 9(30 pounds; probably heavier than
that.
Q. Did you see any of them weighed?
A. I always tended the gate at the lower end of the scales, and counted
the cattle as they went out, and called the number.  The clerk generally weighed them and I called out "all right."
Q. In counting the number of head, did you count the yearlings and
calves?
A. No, sir.
Q. But the yearlings and calves would pa~~s through on to the s~ales?
A. Yes, sir.  There was a rush by the Indians for the calves.  They
would r~~ther have a calf than a cow; they would take the calves before
they got jioto tlie corral, but the yearliiigs would run through the scales
and get weighed; but we never counted the yearlings, as long as I staid
at the gate.
Q. Do you know what the Indians generally got for beef-hides here?
A. They have been getting four dollars until lately, and the price has
been cut down to three, I believe.  Before that they got three, aiod two
and a half, and on tlie Platte for two years they got two dollars; that
was the highest that was paid there for two years.
Q. Have you e~~er heard the Indians grumble about the quality of
beef they get?
A. No, sir, I never did; sometimes a man would grumble a little if
he 0-ot one that was thin.  Of course they all like to get the fattest
cattle that are there, and if one man gets a thin one, he grumbles, but
of course all the cattle have to be issued.
Q. Do you speak the Indian language
A. Yes, sir; a little.
Q. Have yon ever heard the Indians grumble about tlie kind of supplies they were getting-coffee, sugar, flour, and tobacco
A. I have hcard them grumble some.  They would say that tlie tobacco was not good.
Q. Did you ever hear them grumble about the other articles?
A. Sometimes they would say of an article,` This is iiot good," and
" That is not good;~ and it is natural for them all to do that.
Q. Did you yourself see the sul)I)lies that were issued to them last
fall?
A. Yes, sir.  Part of tlie time last fall I worke~l iii the warehouse as
watchman.  I did not have a great deal to do.  I worke~1 iloOSt of the
time in the warehouse, an~l issued a gnat deal iio the warehouse myself
(i~~. Do yo{i remeniber the kind of coffee you issued there?
A. Yes, sir. 
279
Q. llow would it cou~p ~re with that coffee'?  [Sample shown.]  N\~as
it something like that?
A. I should think it was as good as that; I don~t really know that
it was quite as good as that; it was a little darker  but all the last
coffee that has come here has been as good as tll('Lt if not better.
Q. Do you remember aiiy coffee issued last fall that was,bad and
not fit to use?
A. No, sir; there iiever was any bad coffee at the agency, only two
or three sacks or four or five sacks that ~ot moldy-some that was
moved from the Platte up here when we first caiiie here, wheii Dr. Dan
iels was here.
Q. The kind of coffee that was iss~ed, was it the kind of coffee that
the white men use'?
A. Yes, sir; the coffee, sugar and ~our are the same.
By Mr. llARR~5:
Q. Taken from the warehouse for y(Jur use?
A. Yes, sir.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. Did you ever see anything wrong' about tlie sugar-whether it was
bad in any respect?
A. No, sir.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. What kind of sugar was it?~
A. Dark.brown sugar-very good s'ngar.  It would have come very
good this spring if we had had a little of it.  We were out of sugar for
some time.
Q. llave you occasionally been out of beef, so that you ba~l none to
issue?
A. Not lately.  Sometimes during tlie winter it was bard to get cattle
here to make issues regular~v, on aceouiit of the storms.
Q. ~Vell, you have slaughtered and weighed a good mai)y cattle,
haven"t you?
A. Yes, sir.  I weighed them pretty much for a year before tlie scales
were put up; perha~~s it could not have beeii more thaii ~ix mouths.
Q. ~~~eli, the cattle that were received and issued last flill aiid winter,
about what would they average, take them all around, as neir as you caii
guess?
A. ~Vell, gentlemen, that is a I)retty hard question for me to aiiswer.
Cattle come here and slip past without a l)ersoii iiotiein, tlieii~, if his attention is not called to them; but I should think the cattle would go 950
pouiids, or probably over that.
(~.I am speaking partienlarly of the cattle received last fi~ll ai~d
wijiter.
A. There have been some very large cattle, and some that would not
weigh quite as much; and some as firie cattle cailie liei-e (iS I ever saw
in my life.
Q. These cattle that you received dui'ii~g last fill, were they geiierally
steers and cows mixed to~ether?
A. ~[ost of them woulil be steers.
~? Four.year.o~~ steers?
A.Yes, sir; four or five year old steers,, and soiiie would c youi g~1' t 1 ree-year.old5
(~. Abont what would all ordiiiai'y Texas steer four years old gen erally wei~h? 
280
A. N\~ell, it is a good deal owin  to his age.
Q. S~y four years old.
A. A good ordinary steer four ~ears old will net 450 or 500 pouuds
dressed.
Q. ~Vell, aii ordinary Texas cow that is in rcasoi~~bly good order, do
yon know what that would averagt~?
A. They vary more in regard t() weight than tlie steers; I killed a
cow last fall and weighed her in the scales, and she weighed net 650
pounds; and I killed others that would not weigh over 400; it would
be quite a heifer that would go over 350; an or~linary cow would dress
about 400.
Q. According to your experience, about wbat is the diifcrence between
the net weight and gross weight?
A. They geiiei-aliy allow about one-half in this coniitry in Texas
cattle.  I ~lon't think they allow that much in tlie States iii stall-fed
cattle.
Q. Texas cat~le Ii ave larg~r lioi-ns and larger feet?
A. Yes, sir; they are pretty well horited.
By ~fr. ATIILRTON:
Q. There was one thing I did not quite understand; or rather one
thing I would like explaiiied a little more fully.  You state in regard to
driving those cattle on the scales, that they are driven in when they
come up; you count them all, but the yearlings are not couiited in
making ill) the weight?
A. I dou't know in regard to the weight; I only know in regard to
the iininher.
Q. ~Vhy do you count th3'2~ at all
A. I doii't co'~~nt them.
Q. I understood you to say you coniited every olie as it went out
why do you count them?
A. Because the person that weighs them has not a chance to see them
in tiie scales; and as they pass froin the scales out through the gate, I
halloo out the number of head.
(~.~~hat is done with the count?
A. That is kept by the agent or whoever weighs them.
Q. N\~hen you come to issue the cattle, what becomes o~ those yearlings that you do not count?
A. They are g%~nerally given to the Indians. Sometimes they are killed
in tlie corral and sometimes out of the corral.  If 01)0 gets out it is
gone.
Q. Now, wl~at is the ordinary weight of a greeli hide?
A. I ~lon~t know; I have seen hides that weighed 100 1iouiids aiid son~e
over.  These hides are generally trimmed close.  Neither the head nor
feet are on the hides, and oftentimes the tail is thrown away.  I never
skin the head or even the feet.  I take them off at the first joint aiid
throw them away.
Q. ~Vhat would you S~l)POSC such a hide would weigh?
A. That is another question that is very hard to aiiswer; hi(les vary
according to the cattle.
Q. Say an average four-year-old steer?
A. I should think the green hide of a feur-ye~ir-ol~l steer would weigh
`5 or 80 pounds.
(~.~Vhat would the same hide wei~h wIi~n di-ie(l
A. I could not aiiswer the question at all.
`~. You are employed here as a butcher for tlie agency
A. Yes, sir. 
281
Q. What work have you to do as butcher ~
A. I have sometimes, I tl)ink, twenty-five bead of cattle to kill for
issue-day. They are all killed on the ground and issued out. I have all
that to do.
Q. To whom are they issued?
A. Principally to all the old women aiid children who have no men
to look after them.  They draw all the way from three to fifteen. They
get all the way from 45 pounds to half a beeve.
Q. And then you slaughter beef for the mess-hall at the agency?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. N\~here do you get the cattle for that purpose?
A. At the agency-herd.
Q. About how many do you have to slaughter for the age!icy i~self?
A. I generally kill about one or two every ten days.
Q. Say five or six a month?
A. Yes, sir; sometimes in the sn~umer they don't use all of it, and we
give some of it to the old women.
Q. I am speaking of that you butcher for the agency.
A. That is what I am speaking of now.
Q. Do you select from the herd the cattle that are taken for tlie agency?
A. No, sir; no selection about it at all.  I go up, and if there is a plenty
there I take a good one, and oftentimes there is only oiie or two left.
It is llobson's choice-that or none.
Q. ~Vhen you kill cattle for the regular issue, you kill for the agency
at the same time ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. About what portion of your time is occupied in this work?  You
speak of being occupied in the warehouse sometimes.  About. what portion of your t~ne is occupied as butcher?
A. A part of the time I have not a great deal to do and at other
tiiiies I have a great deal to do.  In the summer ti;ne I have to work
sometimes late and early.
Q. About what portion of your time do you say is occupied as butcher?
A. Over one-half of the fime.
Q. ~rere you in the warehouse last year when the annuity~goods
were issued?
k Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember the issue of blankets?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.Do you remember how many were is~ned?
A. I could nOt remember the number; I helped to cut all the bales
a'~~l gave out the number that went to the differeijt ba'ids; but I diJ
iiot keep an account.
Q. Can you not fix some estimate ~
A. I should think, gentlemen, there were betweeii thirty-five and
forty bales of blankets.  I could not say whether there were inure or
less.
(~ Was that about the same iiuiiiber that were ordiiiarily issued?
A. I thini$ not. I think we were a little short last year. I (1011't think
tlie annu1ty~js~.u~ was as large as it had been for two years previous.
(? Do you r~member the size of the blaiikets?
A.  Yes, sir. There were three poilits, two I)oints aiid a l~'ilf, (`~I)(l I
thiiik, a point ~nd a half.
(~. A point and a half being the sni~llest?
A.  Yes, sir.
~? I)o you remember anythiiig of the pro~)()rti{)ii of these hIdiil~~~tsthe number of each size? 
2S2
A. No, sir.
(~.Did yon hear any )f tlie persolis receivii)g then coinplaiii of the
~ize of tlie blaiikets, one ~ay or tiie other?
A. None at all.
i3y ~Ir. llARRIS:
Q. As I ~nderstand yoii, tho.~e two corrals are as if one were out that
way pointing and one out this way, with a gate at each end, and a
platform for tlie scales between them, as if ii) this room?
A. Yes, sir.
~? And the cattle are 01) the platforu~ and the seales are on the outside?
A. Yes, Si I..
Q. Then tlie fl)an who weighs them is ii) 1)0 cojidition to see what he
has got oi~ the platform?
A. No, sir.
Q. I~e would not know whether he had steers, yearlings, or calves
npon tlie scales?
A. No, sir.
Q. lie t~ikes the weight, and your business is to let them out and
give him tlie iiuiiiber?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that in every instance where yearlings were put on the scales
and weighed, as you have nientioned the weigher did not k-now it?
A. No, sir; he did not know it; th'ere i~ight be a yearling on and he
not kiiow it.
Q. 1~nt you did not count it?
A. No sir.
Q. So that while the nuniber doii~t appear tlie weight does?
~. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you kiiow any earthly way that the weigher would know how
iiiany had i)assed on his scales?
A. No sir.
Q. Now, isn't it a matter of fact that they went H~rough those scales,
and were weighed, and reckoned as wei~~ht but did ilot recLon as head
of cattle?
A. I doii~t think they were couiited at all.
Q. So that the yearlings helped to il)crease the average weight of tlie
cattle.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, so far as you know, they went to fill the coiitr;ict requiring
so in any hundred thousand pounds of beefl
A. They must have been weighed, for they weiit oli tlie scales; but
I have kiiown several of them to have been killed before they liad a
chance to go on the scales.
Q. After they were turned ont, being small head of cattle, tlie Indians captured them and killed them if they got a chance?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You considered it rather a waste to have such cattle come iii any
way, which could iiot be ca1le~l fit for beef?
A Ye__ ~ir  it is I)Ot good beef; but tlie Iiidians are parti~~iilaily fi~ii(1
of anything that is young.  Lven if it is a sluiik calf, they v'-Ofll(i rather
have it. 
~
283
TESTIMONY OF ALFRED T. LOBACfl.
By the CHM~~A~:
Question. Mr. Lobach, what are you employed at here?
Answer. I am a farmer, sir.
Q.You are in the employment of the agency here as farmer?
A.Yes sir.
Q.What is the extent of yonr farming operations here? How much
ground have you got nuder cultivation for the agency.
A.Between 75 and ~O acres, among the Indians, that I have plowed
lip for them.
Q.You direct their farming operations?
A.Yes, ~ir.
Q.Your business is to teach the Indians f<'~rming, as far as you can?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.What is the adaptability of the soil and climate around here to
farming purposes?
A.Well, it is very good. Our greatest trouble here comes from the
grasshoppers.
Q.The soil is productive?
A.The soil is good.
Q.That is, in some places?
A.Yes, sir; in some places; I don't say in every place.
Q.The places where it is good are in the valleys of the streams?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Can you raise anything here without irrigating the land?           - -
A.Yes, sir; I didn't irrigate any last summer at all.                 - -
Q.Did you raise anything last summer?
A.Ye~, sir; I raised as fine corn as I ever saw.
Q.About how many Indians are t~ere engaged in agriculture-who do
anything at farming?
A.I have the list in my room, and the number of Indians that are
farming, and the quantity of ground that they have ~nder cultivation.
1 have the names of the Indians whQ are farming, and the quantity of
ground that each party has; two, three, four, or eight in a party.
Q.Do you find a good many of the Indians inclined to learn how to
farm?
A.Yes, sir; there are a good many who take a great interest in farm.
ing. There are some who will go right with them and destroy what
they put in. That has been done this summer.
Q.I suppose those are Indians who want to follow the cliase and the
war.path.
A. Yes, sir.
Q.Some of that class think itis vcry(]egraditgfor an Indian to work
on a farm, don't they?
-A. They think it is a disgrace for a'i Indian to work at all; tl'ev
think it is not right to follow the white man's way at all. I Ii ave some
that have worked very hard this summer.
Q.How long have you been out here?
A.I have been in this country about fifteen years.
Q.How long have you been here at the agency?
- A. I was employed the 27th of last April a year ago.
Q.Do you speak the Sioux language?
A.~o, sir; I can understand a little; I havc to get along this summer by riding round and getting them to understand as well as I can 
2S4
wbat is wanted.  I caii understand some of their talk, and I talk a
little; I can ~peak a few words of their langna~e and I can do a little
by sighs, a very little, though.
Q.If grasshoppers did iiot come, don't you 1 l)i!0k you could raise
pretty good croj)s of corn, of potatoes and wheat iii these valleys
A.Yes, we could do very well with corn and potatoes. I did not try
any wheat last year; I tried tomatoes a'id summer vegetables. I had
corn last summer abont 14 inches long.
By Mr. llARP~i5:
Q.Is that sweet corn ~
A.It is what they call ~Iexican corii.
Q.Is it for eating green or for feeding cattle?
A.It is for eating green; it is winter corn.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.Do tomatoes grow well here?
A.The season is i~ot quite long enough for tomatoes.
Q.Do yoll raise pumpkins here?
A.I raised very fine pun~p~ins and squash and very fiiie beets.  I
raised beets here last year that were four or five inches in dian~eter, and
as fine lettuce as I ever saw.
Q.lIow is it about watermelons?
A.~~aterinelons don't do very well her~.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
(~. Did you put down any manure?
A.I did not last spring.
(~.Did you find it necessary ~
A.Jf the ground was worked very often I tliiiik it would l)C ileces
sary.
By the CllAIRM~N:
Q.Is tl~ere anytalkali in the soil here?
A.None iii the gr~~nnd that I plowed up.
Q.llave you ever tried to raise any fruit-trees in this vi&~ii~ity-peach
or apple?
A.No, sir; I tried`~ pple-trees; planted 50111C seed but it did not
grow.
Q.Now, ThIr. Lol~ach with your knowledge of the Indiajis, fll0d your
knowledge of this particular locality, and your knowledge of the subject of farn~ing, what suggestion would yon make in regard to encouraging the Indians more generally to engage in fiiri~~ii~g? Are there any
means that you think would be well to en~ploy for that purpose that
are not being employed at present?
A.No; they have liot ground enough in this viciiiity here to put
them all to farming. There are a gre~t ~aiiy that would go to farmiiig
if they had a good coillitry to farm in. Tl~ere are a great iuaiiy who
wanted to go over on ~uii~iing N\rater to fi~rm, but some other Iiidians
stopped them and would iiot allow them to go over thcre.
Q.Did thcv give ally reason for that?
A.~Yell,they did not waiit then~ to go to fi~rming too extciisively this
year. They wanted them  to wait a while; there would be a great
many more farming this year, no doubt, if it liad not beeii for the intInence of some white men here who endeavored to dissua~Ie them from
farming.  So~ne Indions told ine that white nien had told them  they
were fools for goii)g to work. 
285
Q. Are yon pretty well acquainted on this reservatioii?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~Yhere is the best locali~ for fitrmiiog l)url)oses oil the reservation?
A. In this part of the country or Punning ~Vater is the best. There
is a large party wanted to go OH ~)~n~i~g ~Vat~r to farm this sumn)er.
Q. Is there upon the reservation any good soil for far'iii'~g thit you
are aware ot~?
A. Yes, sir, there is.
Q. ~Vhere does it lie?
A. I don't know the name of the creek, but it is southeast of the
Cheyenne River.
Q. Is it a tributary of the Cheyeniie?
A. Yes, sir; it empties into the Cheyeniie.  It is good soil, and it is
the best stock-country I have ever saw.
Q. About how far is that from here
A. N\~ell, as near as I caa tell by traveliiig over it on horseback,
about thirty-five miles, or perhaps a little more.
By ~Ir. ATHERT0~:
Q. Is there more water there than there is down this way?
A. It is a pretty well watered country.
Q. Is the land immediately aroun~1 tile age 10 cy here considered good
grazing-land?
A. ~Vell, we have good grazing here until about this time of year,
and then the grass is pretty well eaten up.  Just about this tiu'e we
bave our dry weather.
Q. And then the cattle have to go for good grazing how far ~
A. ~7ell, you get good grazing four miles southwest of here; east of
here you get good grazing-land; there are a good many springs easp of
the agency here; within four or five miles.
Q. I noticed in coming down the valley of N\~hite River that there is
very little land that is of any use for agricultural purposes.
A. After you get three or four miles above here the valley is very
narrow.
Q. From there down the stream is the valley wider and the laud better for agricultural purposes?
A. Yes, sir; there are a great many creeks between here and Spotted
Tail agency that you could put from ten to fifteen families on.
Q. And are there timber ~~11d water?
A. There is plenty of water.
Q. Any timber?
A. And the bluffs are very close, aiid there is tolerably g~~od!iinber
on the bluffs, some that is ~rom six to twelve inches 5~~~ll~~.  Tiiiiber
can be brought out right over tlie bluffs.
Q.Is it very difficult to get it down from then?
A.No, it is not so much bother, but it requires work.
(~. You cannot drive wagolls up on the inoaiitaiii~, where you could
load tloe tiliiber on generally?
A.No, not generally; b lit yoii ~~1Il in some i)laees.
Q.Do you think places could be found on the reserv.'iti~~ii where the
Indians could eligage in far[niiig grazilig, aiid ~~l~s~I)g ~~ ttle aI1(l horses
to better advantage than right iii this locality?
A.~~~ell, I don't knu~ that they could better tlieii~~~l~ es at present
after they got to quiet ~henoselves down more they might.
Q.If they were disposed to engage iii fiiriiiiiig atid rai~-ing cattle, are
there not better places for them to go to (10 tloat than right here?
 
2S6
~  ~~es I beli~ve ti~ere are.
(? You think i)robably iip 0') tlie strean~ en~j)tyi!)g illtO the Cheyenue
~vonid be a l~etter loc~tion
A. Ye~, sir.
By Mr. FAvLKNEP~:
Q. Did you observe on the l)art of tlie Indi'~iis any jnclina~ioii, any
tiste, any dispositioii to raise stock and horses?
A. Yes they could do it better where I am speiking of.
(~.I ask yotl, do they show anv disposition to engage iii that sort of
labor?
A. No iiot at all.
(? Don't you tl)ink the (4overumeiit would do better by encouragil)g, on the part of the Indian a taste for growil)g cattle rather
thaii agriculture, in this region of country?
A. NVell, it would be better for the Indians, but they are more incliiied to firiniiig than to raising stock.
Q. You tliiiik so I
Y ~Yell, I just take it from their talk.
(~.I uiiderstood you to say that labor was regarded by them as degrading?
A. They have their women work, but they don't work themsdves.
Q. Could iiot they acconiplish that better by makiiig their women attend to their herds?
A. Vuderstand me aright; they don't work themsdves-but very few
of them.  Some of them work very hard; tlley make their women do
all their farming, but not attend to stock; their women don't go near any
cattle; or when they do have cattle, they generally have either a halfbreed or a white man to take care of them.
Q. Now, the point I want to call your attention to is this: The Government seems to be bent on civilizing the Indians.  The C~overnment
proposes to do that by inculcating a taste for agriculture.  ~Voiild it not
be more expedient for the Government to cuifivate a taste for rearing
cattle as a means of self-support for the Indians?
A. It would be better for the Indians.
Q. Then of course what would be better for the Indians is better for
tlie Governiiient?
&-; It would be better for the Indians; 110 dotibt it would be less expensive for the Government to get them to raise stock than to get them
to farm  I think that iiiyself.
Q. i)oii't you thiiik that the character of tlie country as well as the
character of tlie Indian population make cattle~raisiiig better adapted to
the situation than agricultural pursuits?
A. Yes, I do think so.
By Mr. ATii~RTON:
Q. How n~any assistaiits do you eniploy ~Ir. Lobach?
A. I had three this summer, Antoine Jaiiis, Andrew Barrett, who is
j half-breed, and John Bridginan-and Frank Salway, a half- breed.
Q. How niu~~h of the time have these men been employed iii farming?
A. ~Yell, they have been occupied steadily at work all tiie time ever
since I have had them fi~rming, ever siiice tlie farmiiig season came iii.
The only men that are employed at i)resent are Bridgman aii~l Barrett
but Bridgman told me the other ~ay he was goilig to quit, and Barrett
is the oiily man now employed.  Salway is now working for himselfl
Q. ~Vliat was your eniployment before you went to farmilig here? 
287
A.I was working for ~Ir. Ecoftiee, at Fort Laramie, running hi5 train.
I had charge of his mule-train.  I had gei~eral chaige around his place.
Q.Had you farming work to do there ~
A.I did some gardening for hitn.
Q.Have you always been employed iii farmii~g
A.Not all the time I have beeii iii this western c~niitry.
Q.Before you came here, were you?
~.Yes, sir; I was born and raised on a f~ru~ iii PCniislyv~i1)ia.
By ~Ir. HARRIS:
Q.Do you know anything about tite cattle here?
A.No, ~~ir; I go down sometimes aiid pull out the beef for the
butcher.
Q.You have been a farmer all your days: you know something about
cattle you see cattle in the herds and iii tlie ageiicy-corral?
A.I go down and select the cattle for the butcher to kill.
Q.~~hat do you gener'~1ly find them to be composed of-steers or
cows?  A.In the fall of the year we generally have steers, and irt the spring
and fore part of the summer they generally have them mixed-cow~ and
steers together.
Q.In your judgment, what would be the average weight of the cows
and steers, take them together?
A.I should think they would run from 850 to 900 pounds, as near as
I could tell; I could not say  I never was there wheit they were being
weighed.
Q.Do you L-now anything about the percentage which a beef's bide
bears to his whole weight? There is a rule amolig men familiar with
those matters, I believe.
4.1 do not know exactly; I should think froiti 75 to SO pounds.
Q.That would be about tlie weight of the hide of a 900-pound steer?
4.Yes, sir; as near as I could tell I never weighed any here.
Q.Have you been cognizant of the fact that the Indians have sometimes sold their flour after it has been delivered to them from tlie agency
buildings?
4.Yes, sir.
Do you ki~ow who have been accustomed to buy flour ftoii~ tlie Indians hei-e in that way?
A.No; I could not meiition any mai~s n~n)e; I could not say, but I
have seeii them sell it out there.
(~. Sell it right on the grou~id
A.Yes, si~
({~. Have you seen it loaded up in wagoi0s?
A.No; I have seen them let it l'iy right there, and take the molicy,
if strangers would be here buying corii and flour, and they would pay
the liidiaiis money for it.
Q.Do you know the price at which they have heeii accustomed to
sell their flour?
4.Froiit 50 cents to ~2 a s;ick.
Q.Now, is it a f~~tCt that freigl~tens st~~)~~ly tl!e!)0selves, or have to anv
extent sul)I)lie(l theti~selves wit[ it
iiithat w'iy?
4.1 never saw a freighter bu~- a l)oulid fi-oiii ally one tliei-e.
Q.Do you know whether it is ~~~~
other l)eol~le?               -en to theui through tlte hatids of
A.I don~t tttijik a pouiid ever wetit to a freighter.
(~. ~\~hat you refer to is, at ex(hallge betweeti Iiidiaus atid white peo.
~le here? 
2S<S
&. Yes. sir.
Q. I)id you ever sce P~andall bu~ an~
~. No, sir.
Q. [)id you ever know him to have any around his buil~liiigs?
A. [ have never been around his buildings to notice anything of the
kind.
Q. Do you know anything about the pork that they had here last year
in the commissary, and that was furnished to the 1i~dians ~
A. Yes, sir; I helped to eat some of it.
(?.Do you know any difference in it?
A. There was some that was not very good.
(? In what respect was it bad?
A. ~Vell, it was not bad only in this way, that it was lean.
Q. It has been described here to~day by one witness as apparently
sniall hogs cut right up-the whole hog cut right up aiid put iti-did it
strike yon so?
A. ~~ell, it was in mighty sin all pieces.
Q. Did you see any clear pork here?
A. No, sir. I was not around the commissary enough to iiotice.
Q. 1)o you know whether the Indians eat it much?
A. The Indians are very glad, sometimes, to have hold of it.
Q. Did they throw any of it away?
A. I saw some thrown outside.
Q. NVas there some pork which, in your jndgmei~t, was hardly fit to
eat?
A. ~o. I never saw any there that you could call uiifit to eat. ~~e
used it in tlie~niess-house, ai~d ate it all the time.
Q. \Vas there any of that pork where the brine had leaked out of the
barrel?
A. There was some. I ate some of that kind myself. It was not
spoile(l.
Q. How long would pork keep with brine out of the barrel?
A. I could not say. It would not keep very long. ~Ve used some ilL
our mess-house, aiid it was iiot spoiled when we used it.
TESTIMONY OF J. W. DEAR.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Question. You are a trader at tlie agency here, I belie'-c?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Q. llow long have you been here,Mr. Dear ~
A. I have been here about eighteen months.
Q. N\~l~ere do you have your goods brought to on tl~e railroad?
A. Formerly I had them brought to Cheyeniie, but now I have theni
brought to Sidney, that is, for the last four or five months.
Q. ~Vhy do you have them brought to Sidiiey?
A. Because the rates are cheaper, both on the railroad aiid overlaiid
by wa0on.trains.
Q. You can get thciu hauled from Si~lney here clieaj~cr than froin
Ch~yenne?
& Yes,sir.
Q. Do the same men haul for you from Sidney that foriioerly hauled
tbr you from Cheyenne?
A. Some of the same men. 
289
Q. What did you pay for hauling goods from ()lieyenne here?
A. I never paid less than ~2.5() a hundred j)Ounds, and in case of an
emergency I have paid as high as $3.
Q. You contracted with the men who ha'~led them the~nselves-with
the wagoners and teamsters?
A. Yes, sir. I wish to explain about that. These parties have their
individual teams, and they are men who are owing us, conseque'itly we
can afford to give them more than we would give outsiders; that is, they
are men who have dealings with us.
Q. Then you pay them in goo~ls here?
A. Frequently we ~)ay the~n iii cash; sometimes we pay part in cash
and part in goods.
Q. Does this price prevail as to all kil0ds of merchandise, including
the heavy as well as the light ~
A. Y~s, sir; it is all weighed.  ~enerally our goods are heavy. The
larger portioli of them are groceries or dry goods, tha~ are weighty.
Q. ~\that do you pay for hauling from Sidney?
A. I have not paid over $2 a hiiiidred, and I have paid as low as $ ~.75
a hundred.
Q. have you any trouble in obtaining all the teams you require at
tho~e r~te~~
A. ~~ can always get teams at those rates, because they are higher
than the gei'eral rates.
Q. Your goods are shipped from where you buy them to Sidney, assigned to your commission-house there, or your agent, and then he em.
ploys the teams to bring them up here?
A. No, ~ir; he is a~lvised of certain shipments, and then we would
have teams there by certain times to meet those goods.
Q. In sending teams down there, do you furnish them with loads from
here?
A. We frequently give the~ lo~ds, but when we are pushed, we pay
them for a load down in or(!e~ to get them to go down and bring goods
up. I have paid one cent per peund for a down trip, that is, on ox
trains and trains that have brought out a load to the military post and
are goilig back empty. Of course it was an inducement to take them
down.
Q. Mr. Dear, were you here last November and December duriiig
the fall and winter of 1874 and spring of 1875?
A. I think I was.
Q. Did you have occasion to notice the character of the supplies issued to the Indians last fall, say in November and I)eccmber ~
A. Let me study awhile to see where I was then. I think I was here.
I saw some of the sugar and some of tlie coffee they were issuing during the all; I don't remember the bales, but it was during tlie cold
weather.
Q. ~~hat was the character of that sugar and coffee?
A. The sugar was a fair quality of brown sugar, and the coffee was a
fair quality of coffee.  I drank it myself, and I have found much worse
coffee iii the States.
wiQnter)~id you notice the flour that was issued during last fall an~I
A. I ate some of the bread which was made out of the flour, and con ~idere~l it a very f~ir quality of!lour.  It is a better quality of fl~ur than
you ar~ eating over there now. That flour you have there now I bought
at Siditey, and I used some of the flour th~t the agent had here, such as
was issued to the Indians. I borrowed one or two sacks.
~9 I F 
290
(~. ~Vell, as tra4er, haviii g cc nsi(ierable intercourse a!~)oI0g tlie ludians,
did you lie'~r coiisiderable coini)laint among the in about the supplies that
were b~ji~a furnished then~?
A.  The greatest c~niplaint tiat I have he'~r~l is that they d~n~t have
en()u gh.
Q.  Do you remember noticing the blankets that were issi~ed last fall?
A.  I didn't see the in at all.
Q.  Nave you seei~ the Iudians wearing blinkets braiided " U. S. I
A.  I did i)Ot exaii0ine them closely.
($). Nave you seen the berds of beef-cattle that were brought in here
for delivery to the agen~y?
A.  I have never been at tlie corral where tlie cattle are delivered
during an issue siiice I have been here these iS months.
(?. Nave you ever seen any of the cattle?
A.  I have seen tlie cattle when passing through tl~em while they were
being herded after they were turi~ed over to the agency, ai~d I considered
them an average lot of good cattle.
Q.  Do you remember noticino them late last flill and winter, say from
November to February, or any time along there?
A.  I have seen them off and on during the last six or eight months,
and have always considered them  to be a good lot of cattle, a fair lot
of cattle.  I could not confine myself to dates as to the time of seeing
theni.  I doii't rein ember.
()~ Do you remember whether there were more steers than cows?
k I do iiot.
Q.  I)o you remember noticing yearlings and calves amoi~g them?
A.  I have noticed calves among them.  I don't know about th9 yearlings.
Q.  Do you remember noticing whether the steers were four-year-old
Texas steers, or youiiger?
A.  I am not ~~ sufficient judge of cattle to say, on looking at them,
but I should judge froin the size of the hides I got without the heads and
legs, from what they brought in market, that they were full-grown
cattle.
Q.  Nave you ai0y recollection as to what was the general average
weight of their hides when green?
A.  No, not green  but the average weight of dry has been from 23 to
30 pounds-well dried aiid fleshed.
Q.  And all of those, you say, were without tlie skil) of tlie head and
legs?
k Yes, sir.
By ~Ir. HARR~S:
Q.  ~Vhat is the differeiice by shrinkage between a dry and a green
hide?
A.  I doi)'t ki~ow the exact proportioi), but it is more tli;in oiie-half.
Nide-men can tell you better than I C'i~.
By tlie CllAiRMAN:
(~~. You have a inan who tends to that business?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Now, ~Ir. Deir, you understand the Ot)jCCt for which we are coine
out here, aiid ~r you know of any ~ircuinstance yourself, or if you can
give us aiiy suggestion by which we can learii froiii others any inform ation conceriling inefticiency or mismanagement or fraud in the administration of Iiidiaii matters here, we would be obliged if you will tell ns. 
291
A. As far as my knowledge is concerned, I know of ilo frauds or
mismanagement on the part of the agent, or of aiiy circumstances that
show any insutuciency on his part. I know he has had a great many
disaffected elements to contend with, and I don~t think any other person
would have done better under tlie circumstances. Judging from the
course he has pursued under the most trying difficulties that we have
had here, I should think he is a man of firmness aiid decisioii of character, more so than his appearance would indicate.
Q. Do you know anything of the Indians selling to the tea'usters and
others flour that was issued to them last year ~
A. I do not. I think there were some squaw fii'nilies that got some
flour and corn from others who had a surplus.
Q. Do you know anything of a lot of flour being shipped froin here to
Sidney?
A. I do not. If there was anything of that kiud done, of course it
would be kept very private.
Q. Can you give us any infonnation as to whether the agency has
been out of supplies at various times, and the Ii~dians suffering for the
want of supplies, and whether, in such a case, it were attributable to the
failure of transportation or not?
A. They were short several times during the winter, bnt it was during
the extremely cold weather, and then for weeks it was impossible for
teams to travel. I know I could not even send iny own teams out, and
the Indians themselves were frozen to death on the road.  Several froze
to death coming up froni Sidney here; that is, they died from the effects
of being frozen.
Q. Do you~know anything of failure or neglect on the part of the contrncbor in transporting supplies from Cheyenne here; neglect to transport s%I)plie~ before this extremely cold weather came on ~
A. No, sir, I do not.
By Mr. HAURIS:
9. Do you know any reason why the supplies for the winter should
~jOL be here I~fore November?
A. I do not know; because the conbtactor has certain quantities to
~eii'.er at certain seasons.
Q. if the suppkes are required to be delivered in Cli~venne by the 1st
of August, is there any reason why they should not be here by the 1st
of November?
A. I (lOfl't see any reason why they should not.
9. Mr. Dear, could you suggest to us the names of any parties here
who would be likely to have a knowledge of anything wrong that has
I)t~n going on here-who would probably know something about it, if
there is ai~ything wrong going on?
A. I coul~I~suggest to you the names of probably a hundred disaf
fectetl parties wl~o could tell you very plausible stories.
Q. Cati you suggest the names of parties who would probably know
sometl~ii,g of their own knowledge?
A. No, sir; I could not.
Q. I believe there are two traders here at the agency; how arc the
t~tders appointed?
A.  By the Commissioner of Indian Affairs upon the recommendation
of the agent.  I have known occasions where they have beeii ai~pointe(l
by otitsit!e ii~fluence without the recommendation of tlie agent. The
trader is reqiiired to give bonds in the suin of $5,000, with two or more
al)i)roved sLcurities, to conform to all laws regulating trade aiid traffic
with the Iiidians. 
292
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Were you appointed by Agent Saville?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you known him?     -
A. I have known him nearly two years.
Q. Where did you first know hini?
A. I first met hini here.
Q. N\~ere you a trader at the old Red Cloud agency?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long had you been there?
A. Sixteen months.
Q. Aiid you never had known Dr. Saville until he came in as agent ~
A. Vatil I came here.
Q. Have you a partner?
A. No, sir.
A. Does tlie agent directly or indirectly, in aiiy remote degree, have
any interest whatever in the profits of your trade?
A. He has not.
Q. Have yo~ in consideration of any favor which he has shown you,
or in consideration of your appointment, paid him directly or indirectly,
or have you promised or implied that you will at any time hereafter
pay him any consideration'.
A. I have not. I have simp]y extended to him the courtesies due irorn
man to man.
Q. Well, since you open that, in what way have you extended him
these courtesies?
A. The courtesy due from one gentleman to another.
Q. Treated him as a friend and neighbor?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In on~er to make this thing perfectly clear, and that there should
be no possible doubt or speculation about it, I will ask, Do you give
Mr. Saville privileges to take from your store good~ which h~ is not
charged with, or which he does not pay for?
A. No, sir. I treat Dr. Savi'il~as I would any other man; that is, as
a business man should.
Q. Do you know of Mr. Saville's being in any way i~nterested in any
trade going on here?
A. I do not, sir.
Q. I will ask you whether, in your judgment, $1,500 a year is adequate compensation to be paid for an agent at this post, taking into
consideration the expenses which he has to bear and the labor which he
has to perform?
A. I will answer it by saying that I do not consider it- an adequate
sum to support a man under the circumstances.
By Mr. FAULK~ER:
Q. Have you had an opportunity of witnessing the temper and feeling
of the Indians about this agency during the last two years; and, if so,
have you observed any tendency or inclination to adapt themselves to
the policy of the Government?
A. Yes, sir  I have. For insta'ice, three years ago tlie Indians
wou!d scarcdy allow any one to cross on the north side of the Platte.
The year following they permitted the agency to move from the North
Platte to this point.  At the time the agency was moved here, they
would not permit white men to cross on the north side of White River,
which is about 200 yards distant from here. Then they prohibited 
293
the agent from allowing his stock to graze on the north side of the
river; and to.day one or two men can go to the Black II ills without any
molestation whatever.  I mention the Black Ilills particularly, but they
can roam all over the country without molestation.
Q. Do you find more or less disposition on the part of the Ind~ans to
be more pacific and less troublesome than they were at that time ~
A. Yes, sir; decidedly. I was at the old agency three years ago, and
at that time I was afraid to ride a mile from tlie store. Those Indians
had just been gathered in during that year.  The Red Cloud agency is
only two or three years old.  These Northern Indians have only been
gathered in within the last three years.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Were those Indians among whom you were afraid to ride the same
ones that are now around this agenecy I
A. Yes, sir. The fact of these Indians having asked for cows and
brood mares and agricultural implements shows of itself a tendency to
advancem en~
By Mr. FAULKiNER:
Q. llav~ yoii discovered any material change in their temper and disposition so far as you have had intercourse with them?
A. Yes, sir; a decided change. Last year they were 100 per cent.
inore peaceable than they were the year before, and to day they are
100 per eent. more than last year. I think the residents at the agency
can testify to that. There are a great many fractious individuals atnong
the Indians,just as there are among the whites. While there are a great
many disaffected parties, the larger portion of them seem inclined to
a&qume the mode of living of the whites.
Q. Do you ~bSer~e anything in the change of dress on their part that
would indicate any approach toward civilization?
~~ There are quite a number about the agency to.day who take quite
a pride in dre~sing in white men's clothing. Red Dog, for one, never
feels so proud as when he has got on a white man's suit. I fitted him
out several times.
~  How would tbat have beeii regarded a few years ago I
A. It would bave been regarded by the Indians as an innovation
upon their ideas.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. ~Vhat is the effect at present of this dressing in white men's clothing upon the ~tanding of such Indians among the rest of the tribe ~
A. The old beads think nothing about it; they take a c~~nsistent
~iew Of the matter, while the younger in en, who are yet untamed, take
a different view.
Q. Does it seriously affect the influence of those who dress in white
men's clothes?
A. It does to a certain extent among those others.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. You speak of the salary of the agent as being very iii adeq nate, and
there ~eems to he a popular impression pervading the whole country
that these agencies are sought, not looking to the nominal salary, but
to some Covert means by which their emoluments aie enhanced beyond
the sum of their salary. Now, are you able to state, froni your observation of the conduct and means and resources of this ageiit, whether,
ill any way, he has been able to increase his visible meaiis of support
since he has been agent at this place ~ 
294
~.No, sir; I don't know, ai~l I really could not state his u~eaus or
his resources.
Q.Have you seen any ii~dication5 of an increase of meaiis or resources
on his part since he has been here
A.I have not, sir. He seen05 to occupy the same position fii~ancially,
as far as I can see, to-day, that lie did two years ago.
TALK WITH SITTING BULL.
In the evening (August 9) Sitting Bull and Old-~Ian-Afraid-of~I1isllorse called on the Commissioners, wlieu an informal talk was held.
SITTING BULL. Tongue came this morning aiid informed us that you
wanted us to come and talk; and we have come to see what time you
want us to be here in the morning. If you have any questions you want
to ask u~ we are willing to talk this evening.
The CIlAIRMAN. Did your people suffer last winter for soinethiiig
to eat?
SITTING BULL. No, sir; we had plenty.
The CII AIRMAN. Was the coffee and sugar you had last winter good;
not only was it good, but did ~ou have enough of it?
SITTING BULL. Yes, sir; the coflee was good; in all the coffee that
was sent you could always find a few grains that were bad, but take it
all around it was good.
The CHAIRMAN. How was the tobacco?
SITTING BULL. There was some kind of tobacco that was good; that
is the short plugs; the other kinds were not so good to miX up with
the Killikinnic; it does not smoke so well as the small plug.
The CHAIRMAN. N\~hat l~ind ot beeves did you get last winter; were
they good ones *.
SITTING BULL. ~~hen we were over at the other agency on the
Plitte, I often complained of the small yearlings they gave us. They
listened to us here and gave us larger beeves than they gave us on the
Platte they were average beeves. Our father here was not our agent
then. Dr. Daniels was the agelit when they gave us the beeves on the
Platte, bnt here they ga~-e us good beeves.
The CHAIRMAN. N\~ere the beeves you got last winter all large and
good oi~es
SITTING BULL. Yes, sir; I am not the only one that knows that the
beeves they gave us last winter were all large ones.
The CHAIRMAN. Did you get some pork last wiiiter that was bad?
SITTING BULL. We got some pork last winter that was good, but it
did lot render out into grease; that was the only fault the Indians
found. It would not melt well. The bacon we are getting now, we cau
render into grease, and we like that.
The CHAIRMAN. Do the Indians like the lean thin pork?
SITTING BULL. ~~e want to have it so that we can render it to make
bread.
The CHAIRMAN. Did you have some very l~ad flour last winter; so
bad that you could not make bread out of it?
SITTING BILL. There was some flour that was pretty bad; some of
it was not eatable; some of it was dark-darker than the other, but 
295
we all eat it together, and they eat it here at the ageilcy, and we all lived
on it.  N\~e got as good as they did at the agency.
THE CHAIRMAN. Do you know of any of ~`onr people having ally flour
that they could not eat?
SITTIN(; BULL. There were some few sacks that was liot good; some
that we could not eat; at least some of the Indians could not eat it.
The CHAIRMAN. Did the blai~kets titat were issued have large holes
in them where the letters were put upon them?
SI~TING BULLL. The blankets where they were marked would wear
out very qu~ckly.  If they would not put that mark upon the blanket it
would last much longer.  [Sitting Bull here exhibited his blanket; and
where it had been marked the nap had worn off.J This one is better than
soule others.  The stamp affected the red ~`Lnd blue blankets niore than
the others.  The white blankets are not branded that way; only the
black ones. As to whether all the blaiikets issued last year were marked
that way I i~ever paid much attention.  Solne wear out much quicker
than the others.
OLD-MAN-AFR~ID~oF.HIs.RoRsE. So InC of the blankets are good but
where they mark them.  If they woul~l not mark them that way they
would wear much better.
Mr. FAULKNER. Rave you any distillet recollection of the blankets
issued last year? II ave you ally recollection of the number that were
issued ~
SITTING BULL. I counted them, but I h~vC forgotten how many.
Mr. FAULKNER. Does your recollection enable you to state whether
there was the full supply you had a right to expect?
SITTING B~LL. There were less than there were the issue before.
Mr. FAULKNER. (To the agent.) You requested him to count the bales?
Dr. SAVILLE. The Indians themselves requested him alnong themselves to count them.
Mr. FAULKNER. ~Vas tl~ere any dissatisfaction expressed by those
who appointed you to make the count at the distnbntion of blankets at
the time?
OLD-MAN-AFRAID-oP~IIIs llO~SE. They all spoke about it.  I recollect it all, but I wollld like the other Indians to be here before I say ally.
thing about it.
The CHAIRMAN. ~~heu the annuity goods were issued la~t year were
there some Northern Indians c~mped on the north side of ~Vliite I~jver,
~ear the agency?
OLI)-MAN~AFRMD~oP.IIIs.lloRsE. N\~e all know here that those Indians were all here-the Minnecoiijoux from the North. The inen here
all know that those Indians were here; but I don't like to say aiiything
about it until the other Indians COIlle ii). There were more Indians here
last fall than at any other time, and the goods were not sufficient to supply them all.  A great many did not get any, and they did not expect
any.  I want to tell you about this to-n~orrow.
The CHAIRMAN. ~~e want you to talk together, aiid know what you
will say when you come. ~~e want to kiiow if anybody has cheated you;
we want to know if you get all that is sent you.  The Government has
pa~d for all these tllings,and we want to know if von have beeii wronged;
and if you have we want t() go back and tell the Great Father all about
it.  ~~e not only want to kiiow if the agent has cheated you, but we
want to find out if some rascal has been sending tlie agent bad things
and cheating you in that way. 
296
RLD CLoI$D AcENCY, NEBRASKA,
Tuesday, Augnsl 1(), IS7~.
COUNCIL WITH THL OGAuALA SIOUX.
The comr~isioners met the Ogallala Sioux in a general council which
bad been c~lled to meet in the store-house, within the agency grounds.
Seventy or eighty chiefs, headmen, and warriors of the Sioux Nation
were present.  The commissioners-Hon. Thomas C. Fletcher, chairman;
Hon. B. ~~. Harris, Hon. Charles J. Faulkner, and Prof. George ~V.
Atberton~occupied seats at one end of the building, an~,sitt~i)~ in order,
beginning on their right, were Red Cloud, Little Wound, Conqu~nng
Bear, PLUd Leaf, Tall Lance, High Wolf, Old-~Ian-Afraid-of-his-llorse,
Sword, and Sitting Bull, who came in after the proceedings had corninenced.  All these sat on benches, while the other chiefs and headmen
sat mostly on the floor around rhe room.  The chiefs of the Arapahoes
and Cheyennes, nOt understanding that the invitation liad been extended to them, did not attend, and afterward they were met in a separate council.  Agent Saville and most of the employc's and other
wbite lilen around the agency were also present.  Leon F. Pallarday,
Jules Lcoftee,`villiani Rowland, and Antoine Janis were requested by
the conimissioners to act as interpreters.  Red Cloud expressed a preference for Louis Reshaw, who was absent.  The council was opened by
the chairman of tile commis~on ri~ng and addressing the Sioux as follows, ~Ir. Pallarday acting as iilterlkreter:
GOVERNOR FLETCllER~S SPEECH.
NVe con~e here to see you and to talk with you, aud we were selected
for that purpose by the Great Father in Washington, not with the illtention of making any treaties or bargains with you, or of getting you
to agree to anything with us, but sirn~~ly to talk with you.  There are
four of us here.  Another, (Senator II owe,) a great white man, was to
have been with us, but bas not joined us yet; why we (10 not know.
We were sent here to talk with you and learn irom you if any person
has ill-used you in any manner.  If tlie agent or any of the contractors
who have been employed by our Government to furnish you goods aiid
supplies have cheated you, we want to find that out.  And if we find
that anybody l~as cheated you, giveil you bad rations, or iiot given you
enough, or has done any wrong, we will have him punished for it by our
law.  We want you to talk with us as good frieiids, and tell us all about
bow you have been getting oil and how you have been treated.  The
white inan is very smart, you know; be will ioot only cheat Iiidians, but
he will cheat white men too, and we waiit you to tell us all about what
has been done here. Blot it is only a few bad white men that would wrong
you; tlie great body of the white men want you treated right, and we
are here to rel)resent them.  You are noen and so are we, aiid we want
y9u to talk with us not only in council, but as one man talks to another
about his affairs.  The Great Father and the white men want you to do
well, want you to be liap~iy, want you to be rich some time or other.
You must ~ea~~ the ways of the white man.  You must learn to raise
cattle and sheep, and then you will have great herds on tlie prairies
that will be more cattle and sheep than there are grasshoppers on the
plains. When the Indian shall have his great herds of cattle and sheep,
then he will sell them to the white man to feed the white man as the
white man sends supplies to feed the Indian il0\V.  Tlie white men are 
297
so many, they have not got great prairies like these to graze their cattle
oil; but they have to dig the ground to grow food for them, while here
the cattle live on the open prairie.  After a while, when the indian has
more herds of cattle, then he will send beef to the white man
when he has great herds of sheep, then he will make his own blankets,
and he will send his sheep and his wool to sell to th~ white man, and he
will get in pay sugar, coffee, tobacco, and everythiiig else he wants.
Now, we want to talk with all of you, and we want you to tell us freely
all you know about the management of affairs out here, without fear of
anybody. if we can do you aiiy good, we want to do it. That is what
we came for, and that is all I have to say.
RED CLOUD'S SPEECH.
Red Cloud theii replied as follows, Pallarday and Jan is acting as inpreters
My friends, you men that are sitting dowii l~ere, do you think that
you will succeed in understanding what I tell you?  May the Great
Father above look upon us all!  And what we are going to say, I hope
you will look Upon it well.  You people that are here to-day have given
me this land that I am on at present.  And you people who belong
down yonder toward the sea, that country where you have been born
and raised, be longs to you; that is your country. I am one of the people who have been gathered here from the four winds of heaven. But
those old people you see aronnd you here, the most of them, have been
raised in the country around Fort Laramie and on the river Platte. I
have been working strong in years past against them; I mean the
whites. The buffalo south and the bnffalo north, on both sides of us,
that is the game that has brought our nation where it is now. All those
old people that were rIi5ed on the Platte called coiumissioners to come
around and see us. They used to bring persons with them, and give us
guns and clothi~tg.  I thought if we moved our agency up here and
would come into this country we would succeed in getting more goods
than we had been in the habit of getting there; but instead of that I
succeeded backward, and all the time I got less of everythiiig. Last fall,
when the annuity-goods came here, there were only thirty-seven bales of
blankets for all these people.  There were upward of three hundred of
our people who did not get any; and everything else was short in proportion to the blankets.  it is two years since we have come here, and we
have not got enough.  ~N~e ii ave had to divide with the ii~dians from the
north, and we have to divide with them still, and that makes us short,
so  that the  goods we get are not  enouglt for ourselves and
them.  Before six months expire we are out of almost everything.
~Vhen I went to see tlie Great Father iii ~Yashingtoii this sui~nmer, he
told me that twelve months' rations and twelve moutl~s' alinuity goods
were sent to ns.  I believe this myself, but I doii't believe whoever the
Great Father has to buy these goods an~i l)rovisions to forward to us
here sends them out.  I think there is soinethiiig wrong about that.
~Vhen the goods from the East come up to Cheyenne, there a portion of
them is lost, and that I think i know myself. I have no jealousy against
any oiie, nor do i wish to backbite anybody; but what I see with my
own eyes I wish to tell.  Tlie commissary nian there [p2intii)g to oiie of
tli( euiploy~s] must not nnder5t'~Ild the weights. ~~~heii he gives r~'~tions
to the old women an~l children lie gives them out by the shovel  That
dot's not please me.  My fi~ther, sitting there, [p2intilig to tlie ap}'eiit,1
the young men you have eni~~loyed at the herds Ii ave becu dru;ik and 
298
drinking for some time, and I un ~erstand some of tlie cattle have been
stolen ai~d traded oil  As a SiouN Indian, I was brought up with bra) us
and a heart, and that is tlie way`ve are all brought up. Those three men
sitting beside the agent [p2inting to Dr. Snow, physician at the agency;
Mr. Gibbons, clerk; and Mr. J. U. Bo4erJ are good men.  I like those
men; they have feelings and a hctrt; they are empl~yed here, and they
do what is right. The doctor is a man who helps us along a good deal;
he doctors the women and children when they are sick, and does very
well by them. The other man is the clerk here, arid we have found nothing out of the way with him, and everything has goile oli all right. That
other man [Mr. L~osler] is ttie man who has brought cattle here, and he
has brought them here in time.  We have nothing to say against him.
Last winter Mr. Bosler came very near freeziiig i!i bringing catfle over.
My father, [I)ointii0g to Agent Saville,1 we don't blame yon about our
provisions and goods, because you don't buy theni. They are bought by
otl~er parties East, and sent to you, but you ought to see that they do
well by us.
There is another thing I never did like, and I spoke about it when I
was dowii East, aiid that is about the soldiers beii~g in this country,
caii~i)ed above us 011 this creek. I told my father iii ~Vashington that we
didn~t want a~~y soldiers here; that we didn't need them. ~Iy father here,
[the agent~~ I tell you to-day why the Indiaiis spoke about you.  Last
year yori wanted to put up a flag here, and it did iiot please the nation,
and you canie very near having good young meii killed on both sideswhites and Indians; and since that the Indians did not like that plan
at all, and they have talked against you, and that is tlie only thing that
the Indians did not like in you.  Some years ago we liad officers for
agents in this country beyond here, on the Mssonri River, and now that
5 a thing that we don't want. I tell you liow, and I have said it before,
that we ~1on't want any Arii~y officer as an Indian agent. There are plenty
of men in the country that you can get for agents besides military men.
N\~e want a man close to our Great Father's place-a good man, iiot an
officer.  ~Ve waiit some person who has the coiifidence of the Great
Father in N\~ashington. N\~e don't want as an agent any man who wants
to come out here to get rich.  N\~e don't want a poor man as an agent.
That man that has been picking up bones in this country, [Professor
Marsh] what is the reason he did not come here with you ~
The CHAIRMAN. Pn~fessor Marsh told all these things to the Great
Father and brought liiui the samples of the things you gave lii in, and
showed them to him, and the Great Father sent us here to see about
them.
RED CLOUD. [To the agent,] My fa~her, lately I have got jealous here.
The reason why I got jealous was I went down to Spotted Tail agency,
and down there they showed nie a great deal of lu;nber, and the half'breeds aiid other people who are liviiig with the Indians are putting up
buildii~gs, and so I got jealous.  And the Iiidians themsclves there have
very nice houses too.
Mr. llARRIs. Do your people want l~ouses here?
RED CLOUD. Yes; some of tl~e Indians would like to have houses,
but we ca'i't get lumber.  I ain going to ask you a question, now H~at
you are all here together.  I went to see my Great Father and the Coinmissioner of Indian Affairs this sumiiier.  There were a great many persons present, and perhaps some of you were there- but I cannot recol.
lect.  I don't remeinber seeing any of you there.  There are a good
many of us here who were there.  N\7e had Mr. Ilinman as our interpreter.  ~Vhat I have been telling you to-day they questioi~ed ine upon 
299
the sanie subject in Washington, and I told my Great Father then what
I have told you here to-day.  And he asked uie if I had come with the
intention of getting`~nOtl1er agelit.  I kept still and did not say a word,
and be repeated the que~tion to me, and ~hen I spoke to him aiid I told
him this:   ~Iy Great Father you are sitting h~re wit Ii your i)eopie; and I ain here with my j~eople.  You have told me before when
I came here that if my agent did not do right, and I did not like him,
and the nation did not like hin~ you had plenty more, and you would
give me another.  You told me these words when I was in ~\~ashiiioton
before this.  The reason why I have come here is that the agent we have
got, it seems, and myself doii~t succeett iii getting the necessaries for my
~~eople, and that is why I have come here to tell you, so that you caii
decide what to do about it."  Then he told nie, "I will give you a father
wlio will be ahead of all the fathers you have ever had."  ~Vhen he said
that we shook hands together. and all was right.  It was the Commissioner of Indian Affairs I l~ad this conversation with.  I told him, " ~Iy
father, I doii't want a soldier as agent, and I don't want a prea~'lter as
agent; but I want an old ~i~ about your age or a little younger, who
has got a little crrav hair on liis head.  That is the kind of man
I want." He said,`All right, Red Cloud; go home, and in about thirty
days there will be an agent at your place."  Now, the questioii I want
to ask, is, How is it?  I am not a child.  I ani looking for that agent to
come, and I hope my Great Father is not goincr to deceive ine. That
is all I have to say on that subiect.  That is what the next to my Great
Father {the Commissioner of Indian Affairsi told me when I was ill
~Vashiugton.  I am going to talk to you now about our provisions.
Over on the Platte, when Dr. Daniels was agent, we used to receive our
rations every seven, eight, and nine days.  Here we would like to get
them every ten days.  I think if they were issued every nine or t~n days
they would last longer than if we drew them every seven days; I thiul
we would save provisions by drawiiig them every ten days, instead of
every seven days, which is the rule at present.  ~Ve do not run around
or go off anywhere.  There are a great many of us here-the Ogallalas,
the Wahashaws, the Clieyennes, and the Arapahoes-a great many Indians here, and I wish, after you get through, you would get in a wagon
and go aiid see the number of Itidians there is around here.
The Cir AIRMAN. ~~e will do that.
RED CLOUD. You will see it is something like the whites in the
States.  ~Ve have settlements like scattered towlis; you have a good
many women and children iii those towns, aiid it is the same here with
oiir bands and tribes.  N\Te are born all the sanie-the Indiaii~ arid the
whites-horn with five fingers on each hand; born with face aiid eyes
and ears, and a mouth to speak.  There is no difference in us at all; tlie
women are made alike, and the men are all made alike; they are all about
the same.  Now as to those Black Hills.  Our great Father has got a
great many soldiers, and I never knew him when he wanted to stop
anything with his soldiers but lie succeeded in it.  Tlie reason I tell
you that is, that the people froin the States who have gone to tlie Black
Hills are stealing gold, digging it out and taking it away, aiid I don't
see why the Great Father don't bring them back.
The CHAIRMAN. Tlie Great Father lias ordered those peo~~le t( be
away from there in five days from  now, and if they do not go lie will
bring them out with soldiers.
Sitting Bull then arose, an~l, addressing himself to Cld-~~an-Afn~i(-ofhis-Horse~ said to him: "If there i~ anvthin~~ that Red Cloud has aid 
300
that yoii doii~t like get up and.~peak.  These geiitleiuen )ave not come
here for!iothing.'~ Old-~1an-Afraid.of.li is rlorse uiade no reply.
The CHAIRMAN. If there are any otl~ers who would lil:e to speak to
us we will be glad to hear them, and to have them tell us ~ll they want
and all they think about.  The white maii regards R~ Cloud as a
great Sioux. a great warrior, a wise maJ), and the white n~an listens to
what Red Cloud says, unless somebody else has something more to say.
If auy have we would like to hear from them too.
Old-Man-Afraid~of his-florse was iiivited to spe<tk, but he declined
and i~ed Dog, about whom in(]uiry was made, was absent in the Black
llills.
SPELCll OP LITTLE WOUNP.
As Old-~~au-Afraid-of-his.IIorses won't spcak for himsel~ I will say
a few words for him.  I am glad you have come here and come with the
intention of seeing and hearing what is going 01).  1 uuderstand you
have come here to see about our annuity-goods and provisions-bacon,
flour, coft~e, nnd beef-au~ I am glad that you have done it.  Back at
our old agel)cy on the North Platte we built some adobe houses.  N\~
did iiot build them for fuii or to last for only a short time. There is where
we were brought up.  N\~hen we were over there on the Platte we had
Dr. Daniels for our tat her, and I told him often about our ideas and
views with reference to our agency. From there we came here and put
a stick down to mark the laud where to build the agenQv, and we were
promised thirty years' provisions and annuities.  ~Te all did not expect
to live to see those thirty years, but our children would, and that is why
we were posted here  tl~at is what was told us when we left there to
come here.  A little before we started from tl~ere we had councils.
There were men who came from the Great Father and had big talks with
us, a'id put their hands up to the Great Spirit above with us, and told
us if we would come here they would build us big houses and fill them
with i~rovisions, provided we would move our ageiicy here; but we have
not seen that done yet.  I want to say my Great Father eats good provisions, and I l~ave asked him to send us such things as rice aiid dne~
apples and sugar and coffee, tea, a'~d hominy-such things as you eat
down yonder; but I don't see any of them sent to us, and I don't see
why we can't live as well here as you do down there, when such things
were promised to us.  It seems that my Great Father decides to send
us such stuff as we have been eatilig, and a great many small cattlepoor, small, aiid lean.  ~Ve have never asked for any beans, and have
never asked for any American corn.  V~e never asked for ally pork-the
pork is right yellow, and we never asked for that kil)d of I)ork.  ~Iy
father [the agentj has told n~e that t~y goil)g aroni~d and counting all
the Indians in every lodge he could te~l exactly how much rations to
give and how much aniluity goods they would have to receive, but it has
i~ot been done yet-we have not received enough for the nuniber of Indians that have l~een counted.  Red Cloud told you thit when you got
through your business here you should go out and see how many Indi.
ans were here in our coniltry; but after you see them you must not think
that that is all of the Indians, because there are a goo~l In any who are
not here now about oiie-ljalf of them have gone out huiiting. These
young mcii you see here, nearly all of them, are married inen and have
families, and they are almost iii distress for watit of lodgings. They
have to double up, two or three families in one tent, iii or~ler to get
shelter.  ~Ve would like to have enough tents so that each family could
nave a tent. The blankets we get are not good. I was out south last winter 
~oI
after buffalo, and I traded for the blanket I have oil me now.  Most o~
those we got last winter have big holes right in the middle of them;
they are burned where they are bi~anded.  They told us when we mo~ed
here we were to get good clothes, such clothes as you wear-white
shirts, frock~coats, and pants-but we don't get them. Now, my friends,
I am going to ask you something.  You all appear to be gentlemen and
nice nien, and I am very glad to see you.  I want to ask you this question in regard to these poor l)eoi~le of ours who are trading the beefhides that we get.  ~~~ don't get all they are worth for them; two and
three dollar~ is all we get, and I would like you to tell as wliy we don't
get more.
Another thing-~n regaid to o~r stopping of hunting in tliesouth.
~~hen we sold our right to hniit we did ~lot expect to s~ll the ground;
at least that was not told us.  We sold the right to hunt for *25,000,
but not the ground.  The reason why we accepted it was on account
of white people going in there and killing the buffaloes and throwing all tile meat away; that i~ why we were in such a hurry in accepting the offer.  N\~e told the commissioners when we took this offer
of *25,000 to buy us some wagons and horses ai~d cows.  I want to
know now if you can inform us what they cost.  The wagons have not
come; tbe horses and cows have.  When we accepted it we were told
they would bnng us the amount of *8,000 in cattle, wagons, and horses
for the Cut Off band (my baud,) and Red Cloud $7,000 worth for his
band. The stock has come, but the wagoiis have iiot arri~-ed yet.  I
want to know if we have got the full amount of the *7,000 and the
*8,000.  We have received sixty-four horses and sixty cows.  We have
looked at the cattle, and they are not more than three or four years old,
and from the size of the cattle I should not think they wotild cost very
much.  The horses were tue same-small-and could not have cost
very much. Some of them are very wild and could ilot be broken. One
of the horses we cannot go near at all; he will rush at us and bite us.
There are fifteen young nien of my people who have gone with the commissioners to try to get the Northern Indians to come here to hold the
council about the cession of the Black llill~.  They went there with
good intentions.  I have used my influence and have given twenty-five
horses as presents to the Northern Indians to induce them to come in
anti hold the great council here. I wish you would tell my Great Father
about my giving these horses; that I am a poor man, and I am using
these horses for him.  The commissioners have promised those young
men a horse and saddle and bridle apiece for going after the Northern
Indians, but I hope they are not ~aft of the sixty we have received
[The agent here explained th~t those commissioners had not promised each
a horse and saddle and bridle, but had told the Iiidians they would pay
them for going.]  Almost all my young men have gone out to catch wild
horses at the mouth of Pawiiee Fork. When you see my people you may
think they are very few, but ~~ou will know that most of them have gone
out after wild horses.  About giving us rations every seveii days-the
amount is too small to last; it is small enough when we get it every ten
days. I would like you to write to the Great Father and let him know
this about the issue of our rations, that we would like i-o have them
every ten days instead of every seven days.  Aiid I woul~t like you to
send one man from here to the cattle herd on the Niobni' -a River and
see them bring in the cattle for issue.  There will be cattle iere for issue
to-morrow, and I think they will be the best cattle in tli~ her~l, and I
wish you would send some otie to see the remainder of th~ herd.  The
way they give the ratiotis here they must tliittk we need only h~lf a dollar's 
302
worth apiece. They mns~ count us ~il for abon~ half a dollar's worth tf
rations each, and it nay be less-a quarter of a dollar's worth.
Another tliing~I have not seen it inyseif, but I have beard complaint'
by the women and d~ildren, that when the issues were given they woulc
throw the corn nearly in their faces; they would issue it very roughly
and Iwishyon would see to that. Therearea good manyoftheyoung mer
here who have been brought up among the whites, and thQv nuderstand
a good deal of the English language; they hear the people at the issuing
cursing and swearing at them a good deal, and we don't like that, and I
hope you will have it stopped.  That is about all I have to say; only here
[in the warehonsel is the sugar and the flour, if there is any here now,
and I would like you to look at it.  Last winter some of our people were
starving; when we got back from Washington there were some that
were nearly starving. For mysdf I don't know this to be a fact, but I
was told so; I was gone for six or seven weeks, but I was informed of
it by the people who were here.  I hope before you leave here you will
bore a hole in these barrels of sugar and taste it. and see what kind of
sugar it is; and that yoa will open a sack of coffee and examine it; and
if there is any flour like what we got here, look at it; itwas full of miceholes. I hope when you get back to my Great Father you will make a
good report of this, and see that we get some white sugar instead of
yellow sugar, and good provisions, hereafter.
The CHMRMAN. We want to talk to two or three of yon by yourselves,
and we will try to answer as best we can the questions you have asked.
~~ want to talk privately with Red Cloud and a few others whom he
may choose to bring with him, before we go away from here, whenever
it suits their convenience.
Red Cloud, Little Wound, and other prominent chiefs then came
forward and shook hands with the commissioners, and the council
closed.
INFORMAL TALK WITll TllE OGALLALAS.
In accordance with the suggestion of the chairman at the close of the
council in the warehouse, Red Cloud, Sitting Bull, Face Shoul~ler, Tall
Lance, Scraper, Slow Bull, Fast Thunder, and Old.Man-Afraid.of-his
llorse had a private interview with the commissioners in the agent's
house.
The CHAIRMAN~. You have heard what Little Wound said to-day,
and now, if you have anything more to say to us, we shall be glad to
hear it.
SITTING B~LL. We beard what these two men here, Red Cloud and
Little Wound, said, and we understood it all. llere is the Old-Man
Afraid-of-his-llorse, he is a man of sense, and all these young men here,
they are men of sense. I am living with them here, and anything they
say I listen to. I listen to what they say; at the same time I listen to
what the whites say.  I said a few words when I was in N\~ashington to
the Commissioner of Indian Affairs; these words I would like to repeat here, with a few more words.  All these men you see liere with me
are tryiiig ~o be friendly to the whites, and are trying to follow their
ways, and if any Indian says anything against the whites it does not
please them. We understood that you have come out here for the Great
Father begause there are some things going on here that he ~lon't like,
and you want to get all the news and facts, aiid I am very much pleased 
303
to see you.  There is Old.~Ian.Aftaid-ofbis-llorse; lie used to be the
brave man of tlie Sioux Nation; we used to follow him, and everybody
under him used to follow him, and listened to what he said, and anythitig he said we agreed with him.  \Ve asked Red Cloud to speak for
us, and he has asked every time for a new agent.  This don~t l)lease us,
we young men sitting in here now.  N\~e have this man (Agei0t Saville)
to work for us, and we have helt)ed him, and;j115t about the time he is
trying to do something for us they are trying to throw him away; this
is a tact.  Red Cloud asked for another agent, and he will keep doing
that, and we don't know where he will find a better one.  About the
blankets which came here: there were thirty-seven bales, and they were
divided between twenty different parties; half of them were again divided into twenty parts, and they theii went around aiid divided them
again, and half of the Indians got blankets and the other half did not
get any.
~Ir. HARRIS. Did you couiit them ~.
SITTING BULL. I was right there iu tlie door and counted them when
they went into the warehouse; there were thirty-seven bales.
The CHAIRMAN. How many Northerii Indians were here at that time?
SITTING BULL. ~Vhen they counted us there were a great 111 any, but
when the goods came about half as many more as were here came in,
aiid that made the goods to go around too sniall.
The CHAIRMAN. ~ow many lodges of northern Indians were there
camped on the north side of ~Vhite River during the cold weather last
fall, when the annuity-goods were issued?
SITTiNG BULL. N\~hen Professor Marsh came here we asked him to
stop and wait for those ~ortheru Indians to get out of the way so that
he could go to look for bones, and we told him when he did go he could
have some of the youiig men to go with him.  ~~hen he did go there
were a few of e'~ch band of the Unepapas, ~Iinneconjoux, Ogallallas,
Oiikapes, and a few others of the Northern Indians remmuing on the
nor~h side of White River, but most of the Northern Indians had gone.
SWORD and F~ci; corroborated Sitting Bull's statement iii regard to
those northern Indians, and so also did all the other Indians who were
present; aiid this was verified by Mr. Pallarday, interpreter, and Jules
Ecoffee.
SITTtNG BULL. You told me yesterday that the troops would ta~e
all the white people away from the ~~lack Hills by the 15th of Augusr,
and the young nien were all very glad to know that these miners were
to be out of the Black Hills before tlie Northern Indians came down to
the grand council.
The CHAIRMAN. N\e saw General Crook, and he said he had orders
from the President to get those miners all out by the 15th of this month,
and the miiiers have all agreed to go by that time.  Iii five days more
they must all be gone, or General Crook will make them go with his
s~~ldiers.
Si' TING BULL.  I wi~h that the agent would quit tlie seven days
rations after to-morrow. (some of us don't get them,) and give us the
rations every ten days.
The CHAIRMAN. ~Ve have consulted with the agent about- this matter.  The law requires him to issue rations every seveit d'iys, but we
have told him that it- he would issue every ten days we would try and
make it all right at N\~ashington.  The liidians were mud pleased to
hear this.~  But you must remember that we can only`nake tlie request
at NVashington that the ag~nt be al~owed to do this.  ~~e ca'iiiot I)romise to change the law, but we wil try to do so.  ~\~e have requested 
~O4
the agent to keep his warehouse open until the tenth day, and when ~ ou
come for your rations you can get them up to that time.
SWORD. N\~e want to get the beef one day and the rations the ne~t
day, so as to get rations every ten days.
The CHAIR~AN. Iii regard to your not gettii)g better prices for your
~        hides,thatis so1flething we have nothing to do with; we have no pow~
to change; but you had better see the traders and get Some instructious
how to skin the legs, and not make lariats out of them, and perhaps
then ~~ou can get better pflces for them.  In regard to the wagons
promised you, we don't know anything about that ourselves, but we will
inquire about it and learn where your wagons are, and how you will
get them, and we will let your agent know and l~e will tell you. About
giving up the right to huiit in Nebraska, and whether the Government
bought the land or not, is a matter that the grand council will settle; we
cannot speak about that at all.  N\~ intend to see the heuls of cattle
that the contractor has here, ai~d we will see if they are all as good as
the cattle that he issues to you while we are here. Little ~Vouud corn.
plained of some of the men~at the agency swearing at your people when
they came to get their rations.  ~~e don't know about that, but we will
try and have the agent correct it; but you should all try aiid learn the
English language, so as to be able to talk to these men at the agency.
We have heird of the bad flour that was given you, and we have heard
~          of Some of your people starving, and we are tryiiig to learn all about it,
and whoever is to blame we will try and have hiLn punished for it, and
we will try and have things done better hereafter, so that there will be
no more hunger aiid starvation. Little ~~und has said that you would
- ~        all like to have clothes like we wear, and we would all be very glad if you
would wear clothes like ours; but do you really want to wear such
~          clothes? [The Indians present all expressed the desire to wear clothes
like the white man's.] We want all the Indians to wear clothes like ours,
~          and do like white men do.
Mr. FAULKNER. In regard to the recently~marned young men wailting
separate tepees or tents, I think that a reasonable idea, and when we go
hack we may recominejid it to the consideratiou of the Great Father.
The           You      remember that we do not promise all these
things to you, but we will recommend them to the Great Father; we will
selves, but we will ask the Great Father for them. Our b~jsiness here
-is only to learn if there has been any wrong done you. Now, we would
like to know if the cattle that were issued to you last fall were small and
poor     beeves~
-~RED CLOUD. Yes; they were cows and small yearlings but they were
not counted as beeves.
FAST THUNDER. Once they gave us beef, and out of five there was one
yearling. Sometimes we have a full issue, just according to the cattle.
They gave me four head of cattle, and then if there was a calf, they
would drive it out.
Mr. FAULKNER. Was that yearling which was issued to you with the
~        four cattle counted in as oiie beef ~
FAST THUNDER. No; it was not.
IMr. HARRIS. [To Red Cloud.] Were the cattle that were issued to you
all large cattle-large steers ~
RED CLOUD. They were n~ixed up, small and large cattle, from two
to twenty years old-some large and some sin all. There were eight
head of cattle that were seen by some of the officers. I was there and
 
305
saw them myself.  A!)d I suppose that is why they complained about
tlie beef, aud those were the cattle they meant.
~1r. FAULKNER. Did the eight cattle yon s~tw ai~d sp~ak of now uot
corre~poiid iii size aiid condition with tlic cattle that were usually is
sued ~
RED CLOUD. Out of tho~e they issue~t to us there was only those
ei~ht left, and they were left because they were ~)oor.  They were kept
back aiid iiot issued because they were poor.  The cattle niight have
been flit wheii they bought theni (wheil tlie contractor bought them,)
but iii bringing theni here they got poor.
The CllA~R~tAN.  Did you have flour issued to you last wiiiter that
was ~o bid that you could not eat it?
RED CLOUD. Yes.  There was ba~l flour.  I am the oiie that took the
flour and the tobacco, and some of the coffbe, aiiil [ was going to take
sou0e of the pork, but it was not good-nasty-and I did not like to put
iny haiids on it.  Sitting Lull recollects this, and cm  tell you tlie same
thing.  NVlien I took those saiiiples to Professor ~I;irsh, I said to him
Take these, aiid show them to my Great Fither, aiiil wheii you get there
tell him I will be there to see liim, too " but I thought that Professor
~tarsli would throw them away before he got fliere.  Last summer we
asked for tea.  They sent us eight boxes, but out of the eight boxes one
got bursted, and about half a box was lost.
Tlie CllAIR~IAN. ~Vas tlie flour 50 bad that you could not use it?
RED CLOUD. Soiiie of the Itidiaiis (`itC some of it before they found
it ont.  Some of them could not eat it at all.  It was very black.  ~Ve
tried to make it raise when it was made iii to bread, hut it would sink
dow ii, and we could not make bread out of it.
iMr. HARRIS. ~~here did you get tli;it specimen you gave to Professor
Marsh~
RED CLOUD. I took it out of the commissary.  I was in flie warehouse, and tlie clerk was shoveling corii an~l walking on it.  I told hiiu
that corn cost money, and was paid for by the C~overnment for me, and
to pick it up, and not be treading upon it.  And at that time I took the
flour from the commissary.
Mr. llARRIS. ~~ho was in the commissary at the time you took this
flour?  RED CLOUD. Some of tlie eniploy~~s Daii, I thiiik.
~Ir. HARRIS. ~Vas an~- flour like that you got at that tiiiie issued to
the Indians?
RED CLOUD. The whole nation that was arouiid here got some of that
flour.
Mr. FAULKNER. ~~~as the sl)ecilue!1 of coflec (`hid tobacc~i which you
gave Professor ~Iarsh a fliir s~i11il)le of the delivery of coflee ind tObICCO
at that issue I
RED CLOUD. There is a nian [~)oiiitiiig to Facel that was with  ine
wheii I took the coflee.  I (liii`lot I)ick it, biit took it fUi)!li the storehouse.  ~~uestioii ine well.  I (~IIi t[ie 111(111 that took these tliiii gs, aiid I
will answer everything I caii.
Mr. FAULKNER. I want to k-iiow whether those 51)CCiIIiC[15 you gave
Professor Marsh were f~.iir s1ieci'iieii5; or were they s~iiiie bad l)ieces
which you picked out of the issue
RED CLOUD. There was no ~ifferent qu;tlity at all.  Tlie tobacco th('~t
was issued was the sanie as tlie sliecilnelis.  There is soilie iii tlie commissary now that is better tht i~ what was tlieie-long l)l(iCk ~iliig and
small ~ilug.  The sniall plug w caniiot do aiiythiiig with.  I took those
`20 1 V 
306
saIiIi)le~, (~fld gave them to Pro&ssor ~Iarsh for the good of the nation.
I ~V(i1Jt(~d to get goo~l tobaeeo for iny ilation.
~Ir.  THPRTON. Did you take the samples of tobacco, sug;ir, and cof            Ifee froii the Coninlissary as you diti the tIour?
P~LD (?LOUD. Yes; and I also i)icketl up;~ piece of pork, but I dropped
it ~I) thE warehouse.
~1r. ATllERTON. Did those saiiples foim a part of your regular issue?
i~L'D CL()UD. Did you see wljere we were sittiu~
day? That is where I got them.           iii the warehouse to              ~Ir. ATHERTON. And you carried them lirect to Professor ~Iarsh?
I~ED CLOUD. ~es, sir.
Mr. ATHERToN. Then I understand you to say tli;tt tiie tobacco that
-was given by yoti to Professor Marsh was some thtt you took from the
-warehouse?
~             Mn FAULKNER. There niight have beeii some bad ~[)ecimens in the
wareliou~e which the agent would IJot issue to the I;idiaris.
~E1) CLOUD. I went oiit and got i?ed Dog, and we went down
-and got two mules and a wagon, aiiil then went aiid got those specimens
froin tiie warehou~e. {Faee verified thisstateinent.J Colonel ~Valker was
appointe(l by the President to come out here and examille our blankets,
~nd we gave liim a specimen to tike to the President, and he promised
-tliat be would take them, but that was the last we ever beard of it.
~Ir. liARRIS. Did any of the bl~nkets issued to you last fall have
-boles iii them on account of the stamp~
-I~ED CLOUD. Yes.
Mr. HARRIS. Ciii you show us any of them ~
-[F~ce here exhibited his blanket, and so also did some of the other
Iiidiaiis l)resent, aiid these blankets showed that holes had worn in
theiii just where they were stamped. Aiid all tlie Indiaiis expressed a
stroiig (lislike to having their blankets stan~ped, because they always
wore out iii that place.J
0LD-MAN.APRAID.OF.ll1s.llORsE. You are asking us all these ques            -tioiis when you kiiow where these blaiikets are made, and you have an
idea wheic the flour caine froni, and that is the place for you to go and
Iask questions about them.
~1r. FAULKNER. Yes; but we want to kiiow whether you are thoroughly
satisfied wit! them.
0LD-MAN-AFRAID~OP~nIs~llORsE. ~Yhen these youiig irien went to
~Vashington, they took pains to take them around to tiie factories and
-show them all tlie good blaiikets and other goods; biit after they came
out here and saw the gools, they foui~d that they were not the same
goods~that had been promised us.  It is the same way with tiie ~)rovis.
ions. Th~v send too small a quantity, and I have peol)le coIlillig here to
see me, and I cannot feed them.
~Ir. FAULKNER. It is tlie - p~irpose of tlie Government to send you
goo~l things, and we have come to inquile if tlie tililigs that h~ve come
to you are gootl; aii~l, if not, we want to kii~~w tlie reason wl~y they are
not, aiitl make report of the failure to the Great Father.
OLD-MAN.A1RAiD.OF~llIs~HORsE. Yoti ought to know the ii~aii who
lias tlie contract for furiiishiiig these things, aiid you caii go back to hirn
an(l fiiitl out these thiiigs.
~Ir. FAULKNER. That is exactly what we mean to do wiieii we tiiid thit
tlie &~OO(i5 have liot beeii d~liveied by hi iii accor(liiig to his ct)iitr.-tct.
V)LD-~IAN-AFRAiD OP-HiS-HORSE 1 -i ii ver~ gla~i lie li;is l)icked ()O you
gooti nici, and ~Ou appear to be good nien,and I ain glid you aretaking
 
307
such an intere~t in u~, and from this time oii I am very glad to know tbat
our women and children will get so~netliing good, and will be cared for.
~Ir. ATllERToN. Did you have any difliculty last winter ill regard to
the size of your blankets?
[All the Indians present exhibited their blankets, and stated that they
were too small.]
OLD~MAN-AFRMD-oF.llIs-floRsE. Last fail, at the Spotted Tail
ngei)cy, we got some four and tive point blinl~et5, very large, and we are
trying to get some of the same kiiid of blankets that we got down there.
I wish you would ask them to send us some fresh bacon.
~rr. FAULKNER How would you like rice, dried apples, and hominy?
OLD-MAN-AFRAID-oF-HIs~HoRsE. ~Ve wonld like to have all these
things you mention, and some good flour, too.  You have beeii asking
me these things, ai~d I have been telliiig you the truth.  ~Ve would like
to have some Indian corn as w~ll as hoinii~y.
~Ir. ATHERToN. ~Vould you prefer the Indian meal to flour?
OLD-MAN-AFRAw-oF-HIs-floRsE. N\e would like to have corn, not
ground.
Mr ATRERToN. How would you like to have a baker to bake your
bread~
OLD~MAN.AFRAID.oF-llIs-HoRsE. N\~e would rather make our bread
ourselves.
Mr. ATHERToN, [to Red Cloud.] N\~heu you took the specimens of sup.
plies from the warehouse, were ally of the eii~ploye's around, or did you
show the samples to any of the einpl~yt's?
RED CLOUD. I do not recollect.  I did not look. I dou't know how
many persons were there.
Mr. ATHERToN. But did you show them to any of the ernpl~ve's?
RED CLOUD. The door was o~)en for au issue, auC I went in and got
them. A white muii was there and saw it, and so did one Indian.
Mr. ATHERToN. N\~ere the samples that you gave Professor Marsh
taken ftoiu the sacks from which supplies were then being issued to the
Indians?
RED CLOUD. The supplies for iny band were all issued together and
distributed among the fi~milies; atid I took a little from several diflbr.
ent supplies, and these were the sami)les I gave Professor i~Iarsh.
[Sitting Bull came to the conimissioners after the talk with the
other Indians, and said that lie and the young men of the tribe wanted
their l)reseut agent, Dr. S~tville, to retnaiii, aiiil he w~nted their wishes
in ttiis respect to be pnt in the rel)ort of tite commissioners to tlie (ireat
Father, so that he might know their wishes.]
RED CLOUD AGEN(Y, NEBRASKA,
~~ThdflC8day, 1o~gust 11, 1S75.
ANOTHER TALK WITfI EEl) CLGUD.
l~ed Cloud. with a few other Indiaiis, came and requested to have a
lit -le talk with the conoiiii.s.~ioiiers, atid they were tOl(1 the cominissioliers
~vt 101(1 be glad to heir tlieiii.  ~Ir. I~eoii Pallar~lay acte~l as ititerpreter.
- ~ED CLOUD. There are two thiiigs which I don't like, and which I
`vilit to tell you about
1~irst. Tliei'~ is anoLher thin~  wi~h to tell you in regOrd to Dr. Sav 
308
ille aiid the mcii he has employed he~c.  They driiik too niuch whisky
~1id q~arrel, and I don't like that.
Sccoiid. There is a I)Oi'tioi) of the c;~ttle which have bceii bron~ht np
herc, aiid issued to 115, up on tlie crc k.  I caii tell them by the brand.
I (10 not un~lcrstand why they are ke1)t up there.  IhCy belong here, bat
they n~ave been ~lriven flJ) there.  Two of uly young men have been
ap there, an~l h'tve detected tlie brand.  There tre two camps there
of mcii who are clittilig wood above the agenQv lier(ling-cam1~.  Probably tlio~e iiieii haviiig charge of the herd ii ave traded them oft.
to the wood~chop~~ers.  It is about five or six miles from here.  I
am afr'~id tll(tt Dr. Saville knows nothing about these things.  They
are probably traded off to those wood-chop1~ers.  They are outside
the lierdur's t~aitip.  This was told me by one of tlie young men yesterday, aiitl I wi~h to iii form you
The C~Aiu~r~~. ~Ve will make inquiries about these matters.  We
waiit to ask P~cd Cloud how these cattle which were issued to his
pcol)le to-~l~y coin pare with tlie C('ittlC issued to theni heretofore. ~Vere
th~v (`15 l'irgc?
P~ED CLOUD. This is the oiily time that the cattle have averaged
so well aiitl were so large.  All the I)eol)le here are very much pleased
that they are ettiiigsuch goodeattle as those to-day.  The commissary
also actud very well to us to-day, and I am very glad.
Tlie CHAiRMAN. Our coming here has doiie one good thing for your
people.
~ED CLOUD. Yes, that is a fact; and all our people are talking about
it and are very gl-td.  The conimissary has been more polite and treated
us better to-d~'t~-.  Mr. Bosler told me some tinie ago that they ought to
give uS two of the small cattle for oiie, as our faniilies are so large.
This is the fourth ~e I have asked for another agelit.  Yesterday was
not tite only time.  And the whole people will consent to have another
agent.
The CHAIRMAN. Why do you wish another agent?
IP~LD CLOLD. I have told you the reason why.  It is oii accountofthe
-trouble we had because he put tip the flag-staff.  The Indi<'ins are afraid
it might give them trouble.
The CHAIRMAN, [to Mr. Pallar~lay.~ lIave you noticed any difference
in the treatment of the different tribes iii the matter of issnilig supplies?
~fr. PALLARDAy. No, sir.
Tlie CnAIRMAN. Ilave you observed that one tribe was treated better
than another
Mr. PAL~~u~y. No, sir.  Siiice I have been here, olie tribe has been
treated as well as t{te other.  The saii~e treatii~eiit is slio'vii to all.
Tite CHAIRMAN, [to Old-Maii.Afraid.of.his.Horse.] Did you see tlie
catile that were isslied to-day?-  Did you ever see as large cittle issued
hei-e }~efore?
OLD-~I AN- AFRAID.OF.IIIs.IIORsE. Those that were issued to-~lay were
a good lot of cattle.  The cattle we have had issued to us would not
ivel-age as lar~e`is those that were issaed to day.
The CHAIRThIAN. What objection have the Indians to being iiumbere~l
or l~eiitg conitted?-  We hearil that you don't like it ~
-OLD-MAN- AFRAID -OF-HIS iTORSE. I cannot tell exactly wh~-t wis tlie
-reason.  There were some that did not want to be counte~l, but I don't
know why.
The CHAIR~L~N. Vuless the Indians here consent to be couute~l, they
cannot tell at ~~Ta5hing~~~ the number of Itidians to SCll (1 ratiotis for,
and it is very necessary that they should be COlt ii te(l. 
309
CA~P ROBINSON, NLBI?ASNA,
TUCSd(~y, lugust 10,1875.
Pre~ei~t: I7Ioii. TllOMA\7 C. FLETCfIE11 chairman; 11011. CilABLES J.
FAULKNE~, Hoii. B. N\~. llARP[S,`~nd Profl GE~)PGE NN~. ATnERTON.
Tl~STIMCXY OF MAJC)R WILLIXM II. JOf~DAX.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Question. ~1'~or, I believe you beioiig to tite Nintli Infintry?
Answer. Y~s, sir I aill capt'iin iii tiie Ninth Infantry.
Q. lIow loi~g have you beei~ stationed here?
A. I have been here commaiidiiig the post since the middle of July,
1874, excepting a few interv;iis.
().\Vhat do you call the distance from your garrison here to the P~ed
(Jioud agency?
A. A mile and a half.
(? Duriii~ last wiiiter (lid you have any o~)portunity of observing the
conditioii of the Indiajis about here?
k Yes, sir.
~~ Did you see aInoI)g theni any evidetice oii their part of suffering
for want of 5up1)liCS
k Yes, sir.
(~.~Vhat did they seem to be suffering most for the want of?
A. Clothing and food.
Q. Do you know what Indians they were
A. Among the different tribes; Sioux, Arapahoes, and Cheyennes.
~Iore particularly the Arapahoes an~l Cheyeiines.
~L~ About what time was it you observed that?
A. In the severe l)art of the weather in Januar?, when we had very
cold weather.  They made frequent reqaests to me for food.  They said
they were starving and their children were st~rviiig.  They complained
of tlie infrequeiicy of the issues of food.
Q. Have you had any opportnnity of observing the issues of beef
here?
A. Not iiitil the last issue.  I was present on duty to look after some
stolen horses.  That was a week ago to day.
Q. Ilow di(l the beef you saw issued there compare with tlie beef you
get for tlie army?
A. It is iiot as good, sir; I don't thiiik we would receive it. There were
a goo(l Iliany small and poor cattle.
Q. The beet you get here you buy on the block, dre~sed, I be!ieve?
A. Yes, sir; the butcher furnishes it dressed.  The coiitractor ftir
nislies it oil foot.
Q. Is it weighed on foot?
A. They fiiriiish it oli the block by tlie weight; it is received on the
t~lock  it i~ bntcliered accordin~ as we nee~l it, ai~~I delivered as we
`vilit it it is weighed aiid paid f~r by the iiet weight.
By Mr. FAVLKNER;
~? At how much a pound?
N It was 9~ cents on the last contract; but there is a new c~~ntn~ct
n()~V. that went into operati~)n ()il the 1st of July, aiid flint is at ~ ceats.
By the CHAIRMAN:
~? Have you al)y iue~iiis of knowing what is tlie`iverage we ght of
these cattle that are delivered here that you receive? 
310
A. No, Sir; I never took P~rtieLilar notice of tlie ~VC~<~~e weigf t.
().Js there Some one beje "`ho e~n give ils tli~t iJ)fOUfl)'ttion ~
A. Yes, sir; the 1)O~t-huteher, ~Ir. J~Jius II. Gueii.  He is hii'ed by
tlie CO~tr~etor to do the btitt.heriug ind look ()Ut for tlie e~ttle.
(~.~J9jOr, did you bive ally Oi)j)OI'tUi)ity of ot)~ei'viiig;iiiy of the
other sui)i)lies issued at the agency?
A. I never notice~1 ~nything but the tob;~cco, flotir, aiid poi'k  that
was during the ~viuter, and I h~'il)i~eued to be at tile`I~CnCy aiid iloticed
it.
().N\~hat "`(`15 the Ch'~r'~eter of the sul)plies?
A. Tlie tobacco seeu~eti to be very daik Iii e~~lor.  It ~vas`vet and
seenied to he very str()iig.  The Iu~liaiis co1llIl1ai[je~l of it Inakiiig their
inontI~s SOle; a~id they ofPen C;lu~e to lJlC to get w!~at they called the
sol(lieI's' t~lb;tee~~.  They sai~i it was JllllCl) better.
(? 1)id you t'!ke any notice ()f tlie ilo~r?
Y I ilever llotiee~l it, but I have See!) bread )~~a~ie of it.  The sol~!iers
trade with the Indians hard bre;~d tor flour, a~l~I they 1~ati to iii ix it with
theii flour to make good bread of it.  Tlle flour seerne~l to be very l)oor
and (ialk'colore~l, and soured very easily.  It was liot flour ni-it the
Army would receive for issue to tlie tro()1)s.
Q. Did you ever n)ake a report to ~Yashington 01) the sulject of the
sufienug of the In~lians here?
A. No, sir; it was ourside of niy busiuess.
Q Yon never sent any report to ~Vashitigton iii refereiiee to the want
of Sui~l)lies aiid the suffering ainolig the Ilidians?
A. No, sir; it was outside of ny jurisdictioi~.  It would have been
inteifering with busilless I had flothiiig to do with.
Q. have you ever liad ally OCed-siou to observe the official conduct of
the agellt at tlie P~ed (Jiond Agen~v, so as to enable you to jii(ige of his
-efficiency as all agel)t~
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. I will be obliged if you will give us tile circuulstaiices.
A. Yes, sir.  I Clil give you SOme documents, too, if you wish.
Q. Yes, we would like to have them.
A. ~~~ell, it is rather a long story.  ~Vhen I first came here, iii July,
1874, the officers then stationed here had a great deal to coin plain of
against tile agent, Dr. Saville, aiid warned me against hi 111.  But, kIlowing that these statements might be exaggerated, I resolved i~ot to be
Iinfluenced by them, but to u~ake ~l~ my own OpilliOll flom what I saw
-myself; and, kliowii~g at the same tiine that it was absolutely necessary
for the good of tile Iildiails that harmony shonid exist between the
agent and myself, I (lid all I coul~l to preserve hari~i~~ny between us
Last 0ctober~the 2.~(l day of 0ctober-at 1 oYlock ill tlie day, I received a note froiii tlie agent, askiiig ine to send a C0i~~!0y of cavalry
to the agency ilnuiediately.  Beilig under strict orders iiot to ~`urnish
troops except to defend the agellcy, ar~d tlie note IlOt stating for what
purpose these troops were to be used, I was at a loss what to do at first,
whether to send np and find out for what they would be used, or to send
them at once, taking the risk that a necessity called for the troops
Thinking probably that the lives of the persoiis and tiie public l)F0P -
elty weic lu daiiger, I resolved to send as lunch ca~'alry as I could
spare, which was only twenty nien. A few hoiirs after tlie officer in
conimand, Lieutenant Crawford, arrived there, a courier caine from hini
stating that he was surrounded by 200 Indians, paiiited and ready for
war. But Owing to his coolness and the asslstalice of Sitting Bull, and
()ld-ThIan, and YOung~Man.Afraid.of.hi5.~0~5~51 (father and SOn,) and 
Re(1 D~g, aii~I several other I!Idian chiefs, these Indians were prevei~ted
ft()I11 attack I g I~ientei~ant Cra~vford aiid niassacrei ii g tiie whole I)Lrty,
as they could have done.
Licutciiaiit Crawford (1jsiiiounted his inei~, ready to (1efeiid tlietii~elves.  ~t this tiiiie, oiie of tl~e etii~~loy~s of tiie`~ge10cy caine to
tlic iiiaiii`~tc., aiid told hini lie lia~l i~ettcr co~iie into tlie ageilcy iiiclositre ~vitli his coii~niand as the I ii~li;iiis ~vere iticreasilig iii ii iiiut~ers.
I~ieutetiant Crawtor~l t()Ol Iiis nien iiisi~le.  ~i)Oflt 4 ~~`clock Liejiteliltit
CU'i\Vloi(l sent ns aitother n~esseii~er, S'i~~ii  that ~vith tite assist~'iii(~e lie
lia~l lie tli()u~lit lie coitlil defeii~t tlie igeilcy aiid advise~t tue to look otit
it tlie p(ist t~~r tlie Itidians.  tie tlioii~lit they ~veie cotitilig to.'itt'ic! tlie
})OSt.  lie a1s~ said that Sjttjii( I)ull told tlie agetit tli~it if lie ~Vofll(l
sen~l tlie soldiers l~ack to the c;iiii~~, lie`vould l~ritig liis l~aii&l iiisi~le atid
lcfcii~I tlie a~eiicy niitil tiie exciteiiieiit ~vas over.  ~~)()Ut 5 o'cl~~~~k 1~ienteii;iiit (?ri~vtOrd rettirtied with liis tii(~i0, aii~l Sittiti  L~iill took iiis t)'in(l
iiisi~lc,;iii~l tI~c exciten0eiit died out.  I~ieuteiiaiit Ci.i~vf)r(l t()l(i iiie ~vheti
lie got bid that l~ef~re he lett there itiiist have beeti 4()() fn~li-iiis there
s~~ine \` itli ~-is1is of stra\v and matches, ready to fire the biiildiii~s-all
1~aiiit~~~l, d!I(i yelliii g out,` Tal~e the sol~liers I)risoiiers  shoot tlieui,''
aii~l <ill that suit of tliiiig.  Aiid lie t()l(i iiie tlie cause of tite trout~lc,
~vliieli I tliiiik tlie agent ~~as greitly to l~laiiie f~~r.  It \v<is ijis ttteiii~t
itig to ci-ect a flag-stafl at the agelicy, cotitrary to tlie wishes ()t. tlie In(li-LilS  which il~g.st'iff tlie Iiidi;iiis ha~t cut u}) 1~elore he coul~l cr~~ct it.
Iliere' ~vei.c otily a few Indiatis engaged iii this trouble at first, but, of
coui-s(~,`vlieii they saw a conrier seiit for troops, they seiit rutitiers to all
theit- cattips, aiid gitbered up their youlig itieti to fight.   It beitig ati unn.~uil t liiiig to ei-ect a flag-staft' at the agency, the Ijidians looked upon
;t (`iS (`t declarati~)ii of`var-an atteiiipt to turti tlie agelicy itito a soldiers'
foi-t, as they called it; and tli-it ".15 what exasl)erated theta.
~),y ~Ir. ATllERTON:
(~.~Vhat was the agent's alleged reason for erectitig the flag. stall'?
~. I caniiot tell.  He wanted to have a flag; that- is all.  NYhat I
hlatiie hun for was his not infortnitig nie of this trouble ~~liich was
broodin~ for two or three days, wheii he kiiew that niy t~urce was the
`veakest that it ha~l beeti a p to that titiie (olily one liuti{lre~l and forty
aid') aii~l has beeti sitice  atid it was not a titiie then to try an~' exl)erittietit with Indi-itis, es~~eeially such as woul~l exci~e theni to war.  I had
had nv e cotiil)aiiies of troops betore that, anti 1 11 a( I seiit two cota panics )ft' a few days before to New Orleaiis, of which I hatl inforuied
bi~n the iiiglit before tlie troops liad t{) le'tve as, so that lie would kiio'v
tlie streiigth of niy garrisoil.  It these inen that I sent ill) there h~d
been kille~l, us the'. could have beeti, it would have beeii owitig to his
lack of judgtiieiit`iii trying to erect this flig-Staft' when tlie force here
~vas we-ik atid I liad but few nieii \o,siiare.  He is too tiervous anti excitable a n0ati for so iinl)ortaiit a 1)OSitiOti as tli;it.  1 foniid that otit froti~
n0y offici-il relations with liitn  aiitl tite mere fact of attetnl)tiiig that
thitig aii~l ftilitig iii it of course hail a bail etlect " ith th~ Itidtati.~.  NN e
~vaiit a firni, cotirigeous, cOt)1 111(111 for agent in sticli all in~pOrtait
agency as this.
Lv the CllAiRMAN:
Q. Did you have anv iuftirn~atioti as to what was his conduct or
peared to be his influence in managing tlie Itidians dn0(~ng this exciteiaeiit?
A. I~ieutenant Crawford said that he lost liis bead.  Le went around
there very nervous and excited. 
Ly J\Tr FAvLKNEI:        312
Q. 1)1(1 you, ~fl any collVers;ition ~vhich yoii hid`vith tl~e ageiit, advi~e 1iir~ ~~~`~In~t the ere~tiou of this fl~~~~t~tI
~  No, sir  I hid never ~ai~] a \Vor~1 to biin about it.  T lid not kuo~
that he ~vas to atteinl)t it.  ~`~e had aii undenstaii~liiig that ~he would
ere~t a small flag-sta~~ On tlie bastion iii order to ~igiial to me in C'iS~ of
danger.  ~Ve have a systeill of sigiials.  Biit this that he was goilig to
-~ere~t was a large j)OlC.
().~Vas liot the ila~.sta1f that ~i5 actually erecte~l upon the bastjou
one of that chanicter ~
~. I iiever k~ie'v aiiy liad beeii erected; liot to iny knowledge  lie
intended to erect oiie, but I suppose he thought they woul(l object to
that too.
-(? Tlie agency is in full view of your foi-t ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~~hat means have you flow of conlniunicatiiig with it?
IA.None, oiily by couriers.  ~Ve have a signal~~~j}panitus among ourselves, aiid everythiiig we do we caii colliniullicate to each other; but the
ngcnQv lias Iiotliiiig to do with it.  The agency has no means of signaling
nie.  It woiiltl n(~t take long, however, for a courier to conic, as it was iii
that instaiice.  lie could come down the ~N~hite kiver ~~`illey in a few
minutes.
(~.~Ia~l there been any previous finderstanding between you aiid the
ageiit tll('it iii tlie event of a difficulty lie was to signal to you by a flag?
-A.No, sir; only a talk, as if he would like to erect one on the bastion;
hut we had no`lefiiiite uliderstanding
Q. If you h')(l seen a flag hoisted on tlie bastion would ~`ou have regarde~l it <`15 <`t sigiial of daiiger, aiid calling for your iuteri)csition?
A. No, sir; niiless we had an understanding about it aiid a peculiar flag,
and the n~aniier in which it was used~tliey might have run it up and
down two or three times.
Theii there is another matter that gave iiie my ()1)ii)ioi) of him.  Last
Decciiiber~I thiiik it was in the first l);irt of I)eceinber last~Red Dog
and J~~cd (?l()u(l caine dowii to see iii C, <111(1 sai~i they`vaiited to go to
~~~<`ishiii~ton to see tlie Great Father, an~l asked nie if I could assist theni
in any \~ ay, and said that the agent (lid liot waiit them to go.  I told
theiii tli;it I coiil(l liot; that it was entirely outside of my business, and
I would have iiotliiiig to do with it.  They lia~l as iliterpreter a miserable sqiia\v~n-a~ here nanie~l Stover, I think it is.  They wanted me to
-go with tliciii to ~~~asliiiigtoii  I told theiii I coul~l iiot.  They asked
-me if I coiil(l iiot furiiish theiii an ofl~cer to go.  I tol(l theni I hail iiothiiig
to do with Iii(~i;in affairs, and (lid liot want anythiiig to (10 with them
that I lia{l Cilongli to do to look out for my comiiiaii~l.  They asked lllC
if I woul~l not let them Scud word dow~i to Fort Larain ic aiid telegra~~h
to ~~~ashiiigton  I ~old them  I`voul~l iiot; that I win ted tlieiu to distinctly u!i(lerstanil that I would iiot 1i<tVC <`in ytliiii g to do`V ith Iiidian
affairs; that I had my I)rescribed duties to j)erform, aii~l b~yond that I
woul~l iiot~iiiterfere, as I di(l liot w<'iiit to get myself into unilecessary
trouble.  ~e~ cial weeks after that there was a Couimuni(ation referred
to inc for repoi-t  It N\'as a com pl<'iiiit mule by I)r. Sa~ ille, writteii to
Dr. ~ (j (Jox, oiie o
establish the new ~ f the eoiiifl)issioners who were here list fall to
potted Tail agenQv, statiiig that tlie officers here
were taking f~ii unusual iliterest iii Iii~lian affairs, holdiiig couiicils with
Iii~liaiis< advisiiig them to go to ~~`ashiiigtoii, and tellfng them that iftile
ag-cut did riot go with theiu they would 
313
(By Mr. ilARRis:
(~.M~jor, have you got that dociin~ent ~
~. I have not; I iiia~~e my indor~emeiit on it, and it`vas retiirn~d; I have
i~y indorsement, thoiigh)~eoinplaii0ii)g that the ofticers here were inter
ftri~~g Witi) his }~rerogative as ~`IgQI)t, and statilig no authority`vli'ttever
for this except tiie n~ere statement of this Indian, P~ed C?lou~i; i)ever even
inve~tigatiug the matter. IIe never 5(')~d a`vor~l to myself or any other
otlicer about it. I suppose that tlie trut~~ of it is, that this interpreter
had interpreted falsely. I~ was a lie fron~ beginiiing to end-his statei~ent to I)r. Cox-for I bad been very careful iiot to give lii!n any cause
of complaint against inc or any oflicer at this post, showing that lie was
not as anxious for harniony to exist between the agency and the military
`is I was. I caii give you my indorsement oil that paper. This paper
wcnt through all the military chaniieis as it came to the ~Yar Departnient, and theii to the Secretary of tlie Interior, calliiig attention to
niy indorsement ~lenying the whole thiiig. I also stated iii this indorsenient that it. this iiiaii P~ed Cloud's staten~clits could be believed, as they
were by him, this same Indiaii's rej~eated assertiolis that ~~ent Saville
was robbing the Indians were true; aiid saying that I had as much
right to believe his statement ag'~in5t Savilie as he had to believe
his statement against us biit at the same time I paid no attention at
all to tl~ese coiiiplaiiits of Red Cloli(l, becanse an Indiaii's word is not
to be taken against ~ white in all ill this civilize~l age, I think-. I soon
afterward received a communication fron~ tlie ~Var Departme!it approvin~ iny action, and commending iny conduct iii the matter of this coiiiplaint. I was also furnished with a copy of a letter from the Secretary
of the Interior to Agent Saville, admonishing him that whenever he
made reports, to make them basc~l on some facts.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. You have those docuiiieiits, I 5U1)P05C?
Y Yes, sir; that is all I have to say about it. These flicts conviiiced
mc that lie was ilot the right man for agent of that agency.
By Mr. llARRis:
Q. ~Yas that letter from tlie Secretary of the Iiiterior, or from the
Coiiiiaissioner of Indian Aftairs?
A. Yes. sir; the Secretary of the Iiiterior hiiiiself to the Conimissiolier of Ii~dian Affairs, calling for a report from me; it had a great
deal to say that officers of the Army should be iiistructed liOt to interfere with tlie agents so as to destroy the harinoiiy between the military and the agents, while there was no instance of interfereiice, except
hi~ owii example.
By the CllAiR~AN:
~~. Over what route do you traiisl)ort your goods aiid supplies from
the railroad here ~
A. I have had them come l~y three diflbreiit routes-from Cheyenne
~irect, fi-oni Cheyeniie by way of lort Larainic, (`hid by- tlie one from
Si~li)ey. They ~~rinci~~ally coiiie by the new route from Sidney now. It
has oiily }}eei~ established al~out a year.
()~. That is understood to be tlie iiearest ~
A. Yes, sir. It is nearly oiie liuiidred a~id tweiity-five miles. I was
wit ii the oni~er that survey~~d it.
Q. Are your supplies brot glit here by coiitract?
A. Yes, sir; freight conti act. 
314
Q.  J~o vou kI)ow \Vl1('~t Is the ~`1~C tlI(~t is P(~~(I for the tral)sportatioij
of ~)()ds irorn ~idI1Qv here
~.  No, Ir  I cotild Cl) (1 ~1l(1 fiI)(i otit fioiu the ~1l~'~rterni~s~~~, ~1r.
f~ee.  I~e V ill tell ~OH.   ot' thC flilut! ~~`iV;llr~
~t~ ~Vi1o "(`15 tiie Ot~iCCI' ~-lio stirv~yet1 tite r())d fi'o~~ here to Ai(~tley ~
I'           ~~. 1~ieu eii I lit ~Iortoii,
Q.  ~Vliet'e is he tiow?
~   He Is up Iii tile Ll'ie~ II Ills "`Ith lils (~iV'1l~V
(~. Th~t`vts ~bout`~ ye'ir ~~O ~
~~. Nes, sIt'; just a ~~C('t~`i~() 1(1St August.
(~. J )I(1 you fee~l tlie ItitlI;itis last "`luter?
A.  I tioti~e~1 list whiter tilit (`t goo(l hilly Iti(lI'itis were g.l;~~l to Collie
here`1li~l ti he thiiigs ()tlt of tlie g'irt~age b;~rt'els, (`ili{l Friil~y tol(! iiie that
lils ti'Ibe li'~il t{) sell soilie of tiiCIr li()ly~C5, (~li(l Ir tlie~ (lid ilot get J?'ltIot)s
50011 they N\Olll(l li('lVC to go to tlie i~owiler 1~iver ((111(1 htiiit to ki'ep flon)
st~rvItig.  I thInk he told Dr. J~ixou, tlie`Igetit selit out frotu ~~~ashitig.
toil, t}ie 5('~l1lC tliiiig.  OIl the other h~iid, I lilust say, iii fivor of the
- -`igent, tli;it these Iu~lIatis are very Inlprovlijent.  You give them  ten
days r'~tIoi~s`tud they ~voult1 eat tlieiii Ul) In three, aiid lilvIte all their
J)eoi)Ie Iii`1 id ((OrOC themselves, iiid then starve the rest of the tIme.
1 do llt)t kll()'v whit is tlie cinse of these l)eoi)le ileitig st'irve~l.  ~\`1iether
it is owilIg to their own flUlt or to tlie ~gCiit's, I do liot know.  I do not
-wish to give a decided Opinion about that.  The lea(liiig chiefs have
often collie dowti to me aiid said their childreti were starving, atid under
existitig orders I have often given tilCill cotfee, h'Lrd bread, and bacon.
They ~-ere ofteti glad to trade a sack of flour for tell or twelve loaves of
breid, or twenty.five pounds of hard bread.
By Mr. ATUERTON:
Q.  ~`bat are tiie orders you refer to?
A.  An order from the ~Var
Departmen{, and also Ar~ny I~egulation~
a)lowing col1)niaiidiiig officers of l)osts to issue rations in small quanti.
tiCs at a tIlile to Jndiaiis visiting the post.  Sometinies I would give
then~ fiom eight to tell days' rations of li;ir~l bread and bacon, or sugar
-~and cofibe, es~iecially to tl)05e Indians whoni I ktie~v to he frieiidly to
US, and who were our friends at the time of the trouble about the
fiag-statf.  I thitik they ought to have been rewarded in Some other
~ay, too.  I have 110 doubt they had hard work to keep the young
men from assassiliatitig Lientenatit Crawford and his`~. I was glad
to see that Slttltia 13                                      tli the
yP0~C7~()iit of' a`  ~ till ~ii~ael. bCWlei rewaided by the President`v~ these
li~ind~ot~~e         was the principal otie that kept
nIell
Q.  ~Iaj'or, with whoni did tlie Ilidlins trade their flour for bread ~
-A. The soldier bakers.
Q.  Theii ~ oti dt~ti ibuted ~ our rations to the soldiers, ai~d they liad
their own bakers?
-A. ~Ve did; then each compally had its owit baker.
Q.  T~ what extent (10 yoti think that the exchange of flour went on?
A.  ~ot to a very great extent; otily through the winter.  The flour
was not like what we received Iii tlie Army.  I have 5CCIl som
and I Iloticed once or twice Solne l)ork which liad been issued C of it,
to then~
last fall.  It seemed rusty and leaii, and very unfit for humat~ beiiigs to
eat.  At other times 1 have SeCli very good pork issued there sitice that
time.
By the CllA IR~AN:
Q.  1)1(1 you Se coflee issued tli( re last winter I 
j~i5
A. No, sir; I never examined the coffee or tl)C sugar. Tl)ey cornplained particularly about the tobacco; that it made their mouths aud
to! gue S aiid lips sore.  I l~ave uotic~d it as being very black, dimp,
aiid poor-looking stuff.
Q. Did you ever o~)serve the bl<'~tikets that were issued last f~ilt?
A. I iiever took particul'~r notice.  I coiisider tlieiii good bl'iiikets,
biit iiot`is good as we get ill tlie Army.  ~Ve get tlie inissioli wooleii
blankets fioni the ~fission ~Voolen ~1ill~ ii) Saii i~rancisco.  I thiiik they
took the l)rize at the 1~aris LxI)osition. I have beeii st;itioned iii (Jalif~~rnia, aiid k-iio'v they are the fine~st blaiikets issued it! the Ariiiy. These Indiaii blaiikcts were riot as good 15 those, but the Iiidiaiis never coinplaiiicd to nie about blaiikets they coinplaiiied about tlie tilile they
got them. They said they did iiot get them sooii eiiougli.
Mr. ATllERT()N:
Q. Do you know liow maiiy they rcceivcd ~
A. No, sir.
().Do you know aiiytliiiig about tlie braiidiiig of tlien~?
A. They had a brand  U. s. I. D. 014 them.  I think it wa~ stainl)cd
iii i)aint or some other coloring-matter.
(~.Are they branded in the same way as the Ariiiy blankets?
A. They are stamped in the same gei~eral`v'iy, biit iiot with tlie same
niaterial. The Army blankets are staiiiped lightly  U S.~ 5o that it
does iiot ilUnre the blaiiket.
By Mr. IIARRrs:
Q. Did yoll ever seeaiiyofthein where these braiids liad eaten through
and mide a hole?
A. No, sir; but it is~ very probable that it would be so if it was not
~~roperly colored.
By ~Ir. FAvLKNLR:
Q. Does your experieiice and iiitercourse among the Indiaiis about
here eiiable you to state whether there is any improvement observable
withiii the last two or three years in their temper and freling toward
the white race ~
A. Yes; I think there is a greit in~I)roveinent. A great many of
them are gettilig wagons ni id cows; a great many of theiii ti'y to farm
and become civilized, aiid their frieiidship is stroiiger. Uf course there
are always young men iii each trit~e that are bad-pretty hard to civil            of the Sioux  but I thi
ize-especially,        iik they are improviiig, aiiil have
been for two or three years.  I thiiik they would have done very well
here with their gardens if it liad not been for the grassho~)pcrs.  A
great n0any of theiii plilited corli aiid I don't think it has done very
well. The grasshoppers ate up evei'ythiiig as fast as it cailie above
grounil.
By ~Ir. HARRiS:
(? Iii your opinion, what reliaiice can be placed in Ped ~loud?
A. None at all. I think that lie could be bought with a b~ttIe of
whisky.
(~.~~hat do you say about I{ed Dog?
A. Tlie sanie of hiiii.
(? ~Vould you make tlie same remark of all Indians?
A. Yes sir. At the day of the trouble about tlie flag-staff, tlie Iiidians
could have turiied out 2,()()O warriors, 1,500 of them ariiicd with tlie most
improved rifles, with pleiity of ainniunition, and tlieotlier 500 with bows 
~1(3
n'i~l <`iiro~v~  Tl~is is ~CC()r(~iflg' to J~ r S(~V~1lC'S O\V1I Stifenlent.  ~f~~i~y
of tlieiii`o`IrOuIj~I ~vitIi t'vo revo!veis aiid a;nin~~jitioj~.  rihey get fl)OSt
of theit`)rfl)5 of the tt;ider~ ~i~)iig th( r~ilroq~~`Vl)CIl they go hnntiiig up
IJoitli.  ~ ~I'~~t fl~'0I)y l~~ve ~i!iehester rifles,`viiieli ire not furni~hed
[)y tlie f"overniiient.  They use theii`~~!fl5 pri~~cip;illy iii killing their
I~ittle \ lici they are i55UC(i to tileli).
TESTIMUNY OF~ LIEUT. J. M. LEE.
~)y the (?llAIRMAN
(?uestion. I believe you are a lientenaiit in tlie Niiitli fufaiitry.
Answer. Yes, sir.
~? How long have you been stationed here?
A. ~ince the 21st of August, 1874.
Q. Have you perforijied the duties of quarter in aster here?
-A.Yes sir; since the 21st of September, 1874.
Q. Have you e'-er observed the character of tlie beef that was furnished at the agency by the contractor?
A. I have never l~een at their corral but once,`vlieii I went Ul) to see
how their scales were set up.  I have only seen the beef passing the
post.  I never was C~l~lCede~UPOn~ and had nothing to do about it.
(?- Ii) receiving the    for the supply of the post here, do you receive
it from the colitractor Oil foot?
A. Ou the block; cut and weighed on the block.
By Mr. llARRiS:
Q. Did the cattle come on foot?
A. (), yes, sir; but if the beef is iiiferior, we call a board right away
and coiideinn it.
Q. Have you aiiy means of knowii~g what is the average net weight
of cattle you receive here?
A. My butcher could give you in ore information about that; but I
will say this: I think 40(? pounds would be a large estimate of tlie net
weight~not to exceed that; that would be an average.
Q. As to the character of the beeves you get here, are they as good
as are usually got ii~ the country; would they average as large as the
-~cattle in herds generally?
A. ~rell, they are as large as tlie average herds that I have seeii in
this I)art of the country.  ~Ir. Ecoffee ha~l the coiitract last year for fur.
nishing beef to the Army, and I would say that liis cattle were, as f~ir as
I observed, as large as the average cattle.  I would say, with reference to Texas cattle, that I do not know anything about them.  These
that we get are ilot Texas cattle; they are cattle that probably have
Texas blood in them, but they are called ijative cattle.  The iiew contract was let about a mouth ago.  They are a different class, as fir as I
have observed, from these fl~riiished to the agenQv.
Q. N\~hat is the difference?
A. As far as I have observed, in the first place, they cost more.
By Mr. FAULKNLR:
Q. Your cattle ~
A. Yes, sir; the contract last year was 9~ cents per l)oiind net.  They
are fatter cattle.  I speak of them merely troin what I have seen at a
niere glance of the Indian cattle passing the post. 
317
Q. But you jndge tl~at the cattle you get here average larger?
A. ~~ell, I would uot say that they would aver'~ge larger.  I do not
know what is their average, but u~iue are of a better quality and fatter
cattle.  I have seen cattle that would ~~eigh 900 or 1,()()() pouiids that
you could not sell, aiid you u~iglit take oi~e that`veiglie~t ~oO poniids that
wo~ld be better  one would be leaii aiid the other f;it.
By ~Ir. IIA~RiS:
(? Theii you do 1)Ot nican to say that on an tVt~~~C votir cattie are
larger tiiaii the cattle that go to the agency?
A. I doii~t know what their cattle j~ ei J   I iiierely say that ours
are ~r a better quality.
By ~Ir. ATHERTON:
~? llo'v would you make tlie aver~tge? Supj~o~e tlie coutr~ict required
tlie average weight to be SOO 1~oniids oii foot, ~` liat weights ~y~~uld you
receive under that contract?
A. I would not receive any under SOO pounds.
Q. Suppose they averaged at least 500 pouuds
A. ~Veli, I would receive cattle this way  Our c()IltriCt5 tiever read
that way, but that it should be good, mercliaiitable beef; the cattle have
to be good qualitv.
Q. But you would receive good cattle of any weight, 1~rovided it was
good beef?
A. Yes, sir; and it might weigh up to the a\~erage aiid I would not
receive it, because the quality would be poor.
By the CHMRMAN:
Q. Do you recollect the cost l)C~ 100 pounds for tl~e tralisl)ortation of
your supplies from Sidney here?
A. I thiiik I have it in my record. The present cost is $1.08 per 100
pounds at this season.  During the winter it is more.  That is for the
whole distance, aiid not per hundred miles.
By ~1r. llAR~is:
Q. Now, what is it for the winter?
A. I would ~ot be positive until I examine my records, but I tliiiik it
was $1.2(3, probably $1.30.
By the CHAmMAN:
Q. Do you make a contract for traiisl)oi'tatioii?
A. The contract is made by tlie chief ~1u~rtern)asters of tlie deliartn~ents, and I am notified of it.  Tlie freight is weighed at Sidiiey nrst
and then it is weighed here-that is, all kinds of ireight that should be
~eigheil, such as corii, oats, birley, &c.-aiid the weight is certitied to
by a board of officers.
Q. There is no distinction n~ade in tlie cost of tiansportatioli I)er 100
pounds between supplies and calii p.equij)age
A. No, sir; everythitig is shipped in this way, atid everytliitig is inc~uded. If they were goil)g to ship soti~e pecnliir kiiid of frei~~it tli~it
re~juired extraordinary caic, there ~~ould be suitie sl)eclil coiitraet fi)I- it.
(~.Oti the occasioti of tlie trouble at tlie IQed (?lon~1 ige1ic~~ wheli
they attempted to raise the flag-stiff, yoi~ were flj) there, I bQlie~e
A. I started ni).
Q. Did you see Age tit Saville there?
A. The trooI)s were ordered up ali~~ut 1 o~elock; I tliitik it was the 2~d
of Outober. They starteil at 1 o'~loek.  I tliitik tliete weie twetity
men.  They hail beuti gotie l~iob~ii~ly ttitee (1i1(it~t~~i5 ()f (~iti li~~iir ul 
318
-all hour~say abont an honr~when I saw tlie mail coming iLtO the
agency.  I got on my horse and went iii) with tile n~ail (the pos~ ma-il.
carrier) after the mail.  I got to the agenQv  saw it was snrroun~ted by
<ibont, I should indge1 altogether between four and five hundred 1rn~ed
Indians, and they were couling iii right live]y from the hills too.  The
1troo1~s were insi~le tlie inclosure, and I fonn(l everything was shut up,
and I could liot get iii tbr sonie little time.  Fiiially I got into ~Ir. fleer's
stockade or store through a sin all gate, myself and the mail-carrier.
~~e remained there probably two or three hours, until a number of the
-Indians had left, aiid then we went over to tlie agelicy stockade where
the troops were, and there I saw Saville.
Q. ~hat did he appear to be dofng~
A. He was talking with parties generally and giving some explana.
tioii, I believe, about the trouble; that he did not expect any more that
night; that he had some friendly Indians to protect him, and arrange.
mei)ts were made for tlie troops to go back at Snilset.  It was about that
time then.  I asked him what the trouble was.  In general conversation
I learned that he had undertaken to raise a flag-staff, and that the Indians or a number of them clainied that that was not a post; that it
wa~~ the~r plac~ for getting the;r supplies; and they became aggravated
that lie should want to raise a flag-staff and turn the agency into what
5e~ine~i to them to be a military post, and remonstrated; and the party
came into the stockade and cut the flag-staff in two, aiid he sent for
troops. There were then two small compallies of infi~ntry here and about
half a company of cavalry.
By Mr. HARRIS:
-Q.Did he state what he wanted to use the flag-staff for?
A. ~Vell, in geileral conversation I heard this: that it had some reference to Sunday; ~hat he wanted to hoist a fl~g on Sunday, so that the
Indians would kiiow it "`as Sunday.  I never heard any other reason
than that given tbr it.  There may have been some other reason, but I
did not hear it.
By the (?llAlRMAN:
Q. ~~~heu you went up there you knew the troops had gone, but yon
-were not informed of the reason for takiiig them up there?
A. Yes, sir; I knew they liad gone, but did not know the reason. The
newsatthepostwasthatthere was some trouble at the agency, but what it
was was not known, I believe, wheii the troops left here.  Idonot think
that it was stated; at least I dit! not hear what tlie ilature of the trouble
was until I had started up there.  I sup~~ose if it had beeii ki~own that
-the trouble was as great as it was, of course that nuuil~er of troops would
liot have been sent up, because the Indians were all well armed; and
while they were not exactly at the mercy of the Iiidians, it was (`t very
iiia(lequate force; a-nd it was remarkable that they were not massacred.
If there had been a shot fired, even accidentally, probably the whole
party, or the majori~v of theni, would have been killed.  The Indians
were all well armed and a great many of them were stril)I)e(l.  I will
state this: that sonic of' the efforts of the frieiidly Iu~lians, ~itting Bull
aiid a few others, probably ha~l as much if ilot more iliflueiice to preveilt
all outbreak thaii anythiiig else that occurred.  I~ieuteiiaiit Crawford
managed the thiii~ very coolly. If he had ilot beeii just as cool as he was,
p ()I)d-t~ly ite aiid a good ulaIly of his inen would have been kille~I.
Q. Di(I you ever have occasion to exaiiiine any of the supplies furnishe (I
to the Indians at the agency? 
319
A. Probably 5On)C three weeks ago the acting agent, Mr. C~ibbons,
(Hit. Saville was away,) asked inc to look at some eoru that was being
unloaded, and some of it was iii the store-house.  I do not know why he
<-~sk-ed me.  I weiit ill, how~ver.  The sacks "`ere torn.  I took a few
handfuls of corii out of a ~ew sacks.  Probably every third or fourth
sack was fair corn, aiid tbe other was corn that I would not receive myself to teed.  Some of it was rotten, and it looked to be iiot fit for feed.
Probably one-third of the graili was rotten, more or less.  I know lie remarked at the time that it "-as a ~)retty bad lot of corii.  ile said that
he dil not know why it was shipped up here; thatthere was noinspector's
in ark on it, and that it was shipped from Iowa.  Those are the only supi)lies I have examined or looked at. except seeing the Jndiaiis opeil the
liork and the tobacco they got, and seeing them wear their blankets occa~ionally around the post.  But I made no special examiuatioii of anythiiig except the corn.
Q. During last fail or winter did you notice at all the character for instaiiee, of tlie pork that was beiiig issned th~re?
A. 1 only saw it in passing from one trade?s store to another as tlie
squaws were choppin~ the heads off the barrels aiid taking away the
i)ork. I did not take it up and examiiie it.  It looked like good pork; but
the test of that would be to examine it properly.
Q. Did you notice during last fall or winter tlie coffee that was issued
there?
A. No, sir; I saw nothiiig of it, and kiiow nothing excei)t what tlie
Iiidians about the post woul~l say of it.
Q. Did you notice anything about the flour?
A. No, sir.  Last fall the troops would sometimes trade bread for Indiaii flour, and would mix that with our own flour. Tlie men were being
worked pretty hard, and ~)robably the rations that were issued at the
commissary 5 were not sufhcieiit, and they would trade fron~ five to ten
loaves of bread for a sack of India ii flour, and they would mix it with
that issued to the troops. That is all I know with referetice to the flour.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. liow many pounds of flour woul~l it take to make ten or fifteen
loa~-e~ of bread?
A. It would probably take fifteen Qunces of flour to make olie lO(ifl  The
gain iJi niakiiig bread trom flour is about oiie-third. Of coulse tlie Indiaiis
were anxious to make a tr~de, becan~e they could iiot make good breid. It
has always been a queer thing to me, soniethitig tl~at I could iiot underst;iiid, why at these large a~encies they do not build bake-ovens and
bake their flour and issue the bread to the Indians, the same as we do
to tiie troops.  There is not one Indiaii, I sul)I)ose, in teii who kiiows
how to make bread, so that it would be I)alatable and nutritious.
Q. N\~as tlie flour good flour?
A. It was liot as good flour as we had; it was darker; but I suppose
it was sweet flour, or it would have spoiled any bread that it was lut
into.
Q. Is there no regulation that forbids soldiers from trading with Iiidians?
A. I do not know that there is.  01- course it is not (loll C Oil any very
extensive scale. An Iii~liaii ~~robably`~-ould tra~le his t~~baeco to 1 soldier
for a loaf of bread, or soniething of th ~t kitid.  It his bCt~Il uii~stly is (ii
iiidivi~tn;il matter.  But on aii exten ~ive scale it would be 1iroliibited.
lt w;is olily to a limite(l extent, an~l I do iiot thiiik it hIS beci doiie for
<`I mouth. 
320
By ~Ir. JIARRiS
~?- Did yool see any pork there that was unfit to bc eaten, ilo your
J id go) (~i1 t
A. No, sir: I oiever oioticcd it.  ~he Indi'ins would say that their tobacco was bad that ir hurt their tongues.  That I kioow.  It is 100 such
grade of tobicco as is issued to the troops.  Every ~oldier is allowed a
l)0I)i)d of tobleco it tioc contract-price, aiid it is cliarge~l against his
pay.
ELD CLOUD AGENCY, ~L~RA5KA,
Tuesdcty, Ao~gust 10, 1875.
Prescoit: 1101). TllOMAs C. FLLTCIIER, chairman  Prof. GEORGE ~Y.
ATlIEliTON, 1101). CllARLES J. FAULKNER and lion. B. ~~. HA~R1s.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES EOBERTS.
By tie CllAIRMAN:
Qtiestioii. How loiog have you been in the vicinity of I~~cd Cloud
agency?
-iAnswer. I caine here on the 1st`\Iarch, 1874.
Q. N\~hat have you beeu doing since you have been here?
A. N\~hen I first came here I was store-keeper or issue-clerk for the
agcnt, aiid afterward clerk.
Q. ~~ere you here last fall and wiioter?
A. Yes, sir; I was here as clerk lop to the latter part of last December.
Q. Tloeii you were here in tlie agency dui'ing Novenober and December
of last year?
k Yes, sir.
Q. liad you a pretty gei)eral knowledge of affairs about the agency?
A. ~Vell, what do you n)~'t~ by that?
Q. I meaii, far ii)staiice, about the issue of supplies. You were part of
the time issue-clerk.  I underst;ind you issued the rations.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then the remaiiider of the tiiioe you were clerk-clerk in what
other departnoeut?
A. Ioo the owLce, sir-making out the l)apers, where ~rr. Gibbons is now.
Q. During the time you were here, (lid you, in Noveinber aiid Decem.
her, observe particularly the beefcattle which were brought here for
delivery to tlie agency?
A. Yes, sir; sonoetiiiies I saw them and sometimes I (lid iiot-just as
it hapi~cned.
Q. You did see some head of cattle driven iii here?
A. Yes, sir; a great many before that tiiiie and after.
Q. ~~ere you present at the weighiiig of ally of them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You saw them weighed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The cattle you saw weiglo ed there, what did they average
A. They went over 1,000 i)ouiods-thosi I weigl~ed onyselfl
Q. You weighed some yourself?
A. Yes, sir; I (lid.
~? And they averaged over 1,000 poun~ls?
A. They went over that. 
321
By Mr. ATilERTON:
Q. Do you ineau the average
A. Yes, sir; the average.
By the CilAIRMAN:
(~ N~~~ll, then, in averagil)g then~ did you average tlie whole lot, or
did you average those that were weighed oli the scales ~
A. No, sir we weighed theni all, aiid added up tlie weights, and then
averaged the'm.
Q \Vheii the scales were full of cattle you weighed them without aiiy
reg~trtl to tile i~,iu~her of cattle upou the scales ~
A. No, sir.  Tiie way we weigh them  is this: tl~ey have a corral
coiupos~d of two parts, aiid iii one part there is a chi~te which leads iiito
one ejid of tiie corral, ai~d from there the herders drive the cattle oil to
tlie scales.  I will make a diagrani of it so that you will understand it.
[~Vituess drew a diagram and explaiiied it.}  I weighed tlie cattle sometinies and put dowi the weight indicated by the scales, and the man who
opeue~l tlie gate and let the cattle into the corral from the scales called
out the number of cattle, and when they liad 1~assed through the scales
into tlie ~orral they were considered as delivered to the agent.
Q. Now, iii making up this average, you took tlie number of cattle
called oft by the man who opeiicd the gate.~
A. Yes, sir; and the herder counted theiii afterward, aiid if there
was ai)y differ~uce we recoujited them.
(~.but in iuakiug up your average you made it frou~ the weights indi(ated by the scales and fron~ the nuu~bers called out l~y tiie inan at
the gate ~
k Yes, sir.
Q. Now, if there were ten cattle oii tlie scales, and the sc}tles indicated
6,(JUO pounds, and he should call oil to you six cattle, you would put
down six, of course?
A. There was nothing of that kind occurred there to iny knowledge
an~l belief.
Q. ~~ere there not sometimes some calves and yearlings there?
A. Yes, sir; there were sometimes.
(~ I)i(l not they get on to the scales, too?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.~Vere they coatited by tlie inaii at tlie g~~te?
A. No, sir.
Q. ~Yas not their weight inclu~led?
A. Yes, sir; it was.
Q. have you some knowledge of cattle?
A. Yes, sir. I have seeii a good ii1'iiiy Army cittle, aiid Ii ave assisted
in receiving some.
Q. The cattle that were delivered to the ageiley nuder your observation, were they generally large aiid good cattle?
A. Yes, sir; tliev were better thaii a good niany Arniy cattle that I
have seeii.
Q. NVere they composed of both steers and cows
A. Soin' cows; yes, sir.
&~. ~`\~~~uld the cows average in we iglit as iii u(~li as tlie steers?
A. I do not know. Some of the cows were goo(l l;irge (~O'v5, niid a few
~`ould CO[i C up iii size to the steers, aiid of course soilIe ~Ve1'C siii;iller.
C~. Aho~ t what was ~he I)rol)ortioii of cows to stecis iii tlie li~rls that
yoit saw?
A. 1 do i~ot know.  I did iiot tliiiik of it.
`~1 I F 
322
().~V~re yon liei~ (~t thQ  sue of ~flflUi~~.goo~l.s iii Noveniber )~st ~
~. Y~~, sir; I W('~5.
(~.J)o yoii iemenil~er lio~v ~0~1)~ bales of bia~ik&~ts ~YCrC issu~~l then?
~. I ina~Ie out 1,S5() pains oil tlie receipt.
~? J)o you kuo~v about ho~~ n~aiiy I)airs ~here (`ii?C in a b~ie
~. I do not know ai~ythiii~, about the bales.
Q. Do yoii remember whether you venhed tiie bills of ladii~g by the
goods when they were received here?
~. The agei~t received tile LII himself; he was very particiilar about it,
an~i receiveti them himselfl
().Do ~ ou ren~einber iloticing during that time the qnali~y of flo~ir
which W(~5 issued at the agelicy?
A. No fl~rther than when our cook would pick out some for the 1l)C55, and
he was a very good judge of flour, and he would s'i~ soiiie was good
and ~ome was very bad.  I cannot say I ain a good judge of flour myself.
Q. In your fllC55 did you use flour from the`Igeilcy store.house-the
same kiiid of flour that was issued to the Indians?
A. Yes, some sacks were better and some were worse. The cook
picked them out.
(~.Did you hear`lily grumbling among tile Iiidians, or by anybody
else, as to the quality of that flour?
k Not particularly. Occasionally there would be a poor sa~k of flour,
but I cannot call~to mind any particular gHimbling on the part of anybody about it.
Q. Do you remember iloticing, in November and December, the kind
of coffee that was issued here?
A. It was ordinary coffee, that is, good coffee, so that we used it in our
mess.
Q. Did you hear any particular grumbling in your mess about the
quality of the coffee?
A. N\ell, we bought other coffee because we preferred it-it was better;
but, at the same time, when we used aiiy of our rations, we did not cousider it bad at all.  ~Ve were entitled to rations from the agent.
Q. Ilow about the sugar which you had there at that time?
A. That was very brow~~, ~~ery dark. ~Ye used it, but we bought
most of the sugar we used.  It was a very inferior article of sugar, I
think.
Q. Lut was it so inferior as that it was`.`ot fit for use ~
A. It would sweeten, but it was very dark.  It was what th~v call
crude.  It was sweet, but heavy and very brown.
Q. ll'~ve you noticed tl~e sugar they are distributiii here i~ow?
A. Yes., sir. Tiie sugar they are distributing 110W 15 very superior to
that.
Q. Do you know anyFi~ing of the maimer of giving receipts (or freight
that was brought here, how that was done by the agent
A. As I understand it, tlie freight.contractor would load tlie train with
goods and send it up here, and when, for iiistance, fi~'e or six traiiis or two
or three trains would come here with goods aiid be received, the agent
would niake him oiit a consolidated bill for the two or three trains and
receillt to him for so ulaily pounds of freight.
Q. lIow did tile agent come to know just what was coiltained iii the
wa~ons?
A. ~Ve checked it off at tlie warehouse.  ~Ye had a l)ill of lading seiit
witi tlie goods from Cheyenne.  Say th~re would be tour trains. No. 1
wo~ild have his bill of ladiiig, and there would be a bill of lading sent to
tli~ a~er~t; aiid so also would No. 2, No. 3, ai~d No. 4 have a bill, and 
323
sometimes I received some of~them, and the freighter would check it and
I would check it.
Q. As [ understand you, you would take the bill of lading sent l)y
the store~keeper at Cheyenne and verify it by the co'itents of the wagons,
and see that the wagons contained what tlie l)ill of lading called for.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember about the issue of some pork to tl~e Indians
here list fall?
A. Yes, sir; I saw sever~l issues of pork.
Q. Do you remember what kind of pork that was?
A. It was very inferior.
(~.~Vas it so spoiled that it was not fit for use?
A. It was kind of thin and flaccid.  I do not know what was the matter with it besides that.  It did not taste good.  It was not good pork.
The agent wrote about iE several tiii~es to know what he should do with
it.  That correspondence is all on file.
Q. He complained that the pork was not of good quality?
A. Re represented just what it was.  Tlie Commissioner of Indian
Affairs wrote him with reference to it,and told him if it was inferior to
look into it and notify him, and the agent (lid so.  There was some correspondence about it, but I caniiot recollect the particulars without
referring to it.  I know that it was a very poor article, and the agent
excepted to it and wrote to the Commissioner about it.
By Mr. RARRIs:
Q. Was it really of much service to tlie Indians?
A. The Indians do not like pickled pork anyhow.
Q. If they did, would that pork be of much service to them?
A. Well, it would kind of keep off hunger, I suppose, but it was not
a good article.
Q. I would like you to say whether or not it must have been a great
loss to the Government to turnisli the pork?
A. Yes, sir; it would have been better for the Government to have
issued lard or baeoii. A great proportion of that pork was wasted by
the Indians. They would cut off a little piece of fat aiid throw tlie rest
away. I do iiot recollect seeing aiiy without brine and with an offensive
sniell.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. You are not in ally way coiinected with the agency now?
A. No, sir. I am Aerking fi~r the tnider here, keeping his books.
That is not being connected ~~ith the agelicy, however.
Q. ~lr. Roberts, you seen~ to iiie to be a man of iiitelligeiice, and capable of forming a correct )u~lgiuent`thout a niatter.  ~Ve would like to
have your opinion, so tar as your observation exteiided, about the
general Inaliagemelit and coii~luct of ail-tirs oli the pait of the agelit
here; wheth~r lie eviiice(l a di~l)()siti{)I) aii~l abilitv to do for tlie Indiaiis
the t~est that could be doiie wit Ii tlie sut)l)lies which were furiiished him.
A. I think lie tried to do so, sir.
(~.You saw nothiiig tiiat l~uo(!nce(l a different in)~)ression 011 you mind
as to his ob)ects drId inteiitioiis t()~~ ard tlieiii?
A.  His ilitentions I alw'iys sai~l were t() (10`vh'lt was right. There
ni;ty be a differeiice of ()l)inioii (Jil tlie l)'Irt ol soiiie.  1 (10 not thiiik lie
11(5 had`iS Ill icli exl)eriellcc 15`1`(``It lii lily nie!i, aiid iii eiideavoriiig
<`tll the time to 10 just wli;it wis iiglit lie i)rt)bably was a little too strin gt'nt with the lillilils.  I tliiiik li-c ~v'is rat tier too strict, a little iii()i'e so
than Iiidi'iiis li~c, aiid he wt~uld t~lk to titeiti`I little too much,`~nd allow
 
a~24
them to keel) talking to hiin and bothering him.   Fa niliarity breeds
contempt,~' and that is particularly true with these Indi ~ns. An agelit
should talk with the chiefs only, and not with everyyonng man that comes
around 1)
ut he endeavored to listen and talk to them all, aiid to right
their wrongs, or their imagiliary wrongs, and of course lie would tell them
that he would explain all to the Great Father, an~l all that, aiid a great
many instances which he had no control over and nothing at all to do
with. It would, however, puzzle any man to answer some of the questions the Indian~ would ask.  Instead of talkiiig with tlie chiefs oiily, I
think he talked too much with every little fauiily or band that had any
Igrievance to offer.
Q. Do you know a inan by the name of Stover?
here now })utting iii liay for ~Ir. Yates.  Stover is a man who talks a
A. Yes, sir; he was an employ~ here at the mill last June.  JIe is
great deal.
By ~1r. FAiTLKN~R:
Q. I under~tand you to say that you were clerk on the 14th Noveinher, when Professor Marsh "-as here?
k Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recollect the occasion of his visit here ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have yon any distinct or particular recollection of the issue of
cattle which took i)lace at the time Protessor ~Iarsh was here, viz,
the 14th November?
A. I have a recollection of not having issued to the Indiaiis on the regular day, for tlie reason that we were counting them, and tlie agent told
them that he would not issue un~il th~y were counted.  ~~ had been
in the habit of issi~ing every ten days, because the Indians preferred that
way.  He cl~anged the issue from every seven days to every ten days
at their request. They wanted to get more beef and sugar and every.
thii~g else at one is~ue.  The regular issue ought to have been on the
11th.  I made no liote of it, but I think the cattle were two or three
days behind time, and the Indians were very anxious for tlie beef~whicl~
was issued to them as soon as it was received, part of it that day and
part the next morning.
Q. ITave you such a distinct recollection 6f tlic cattle issued the 14th
November as will enable you to state what was their size and quality?
A. I did not notice anything unusually out of the way with theiii.
Q. ~Vas it at that time your duty as clerk to weigh those cattle?
A. Yes, sir: either the agent or myself did so.
Q. Do you remember whether it was you or the agciit that ~eighed
them?
A. I think he weighed them and issued part of then?, a~id I finished
the issue tiie next morning.  A good many of tiie Iiidians were going
o~ a h~nt and they thronged the office the next day and the diy fbllowing, and were given a little extra rations all around to start them off.
They demanded the rations, an~i there was quite a lot of them  around
here. They objected to the counting, aiid were dissatisfied about it.
There had been a good deal of feeling over the matter, and the Jn~lians
did not feel very l)leasant, aiid rather blamed the ageilt for withhol~ling
the rations for two or three days.  ~~hile they were bei~ig counted, some
of them wanted to go off on a hunt, and they demanded a little iiiore
rations. There was a good deal of feeling, an~l the situation was ratlter
daii gerons.
Q. Have you a sufficiently clear recollection of that issue of cattle on 
325
the 14th November to state now what, ill your judgment and opinion
was the average weight of the cattle ~
A. Those which I saw issued the iiext moruilig I should judge to be
the same kind of cattle which I had weighed before myself.
Q. ~%ighing about how much?
A. A thousand pounds and over. Tlie exact figures I do not recollect,
but I can tell by looking at the receipts.  I did not see all ot tlie~, only
part the next morning.
Q. Are you in the habit of preserving in your office a record of the
weight of these cattle?
A. The number of pounds I add up and iunmcdiately cuter oil the
book.
Q. You mean the gross amount?
A. ~es, sir; the gross amount.
Q. There is no account taken of the weight of each separate head
of cattle?
A. No, sir; sometimes four, or five, or six, or eight bead go in the
scales at once, and the number of head is added Ul) to tlie gross weight
so many head and so many pounds-and that is immediately entered iii
the book.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. As I understand you, you say there were calves and yearlings
weighed?
A. ~~~ell, calves, no; calves never went in. By calves I mean cattle
about six weeks old. The Indians always got hold of them. They very
seldom got on the scales, but some yearlings did.
Q. You say there were yearlings weighed which were not counted,
but whose weight was included. Now, there were cattle of various sizes
and ages, from a year old up to five and six years. The question is
this, whether by that system cattle would not get in, or did get in and
were weighed, which, taken by themselves, could not be reckoned as
merchantable beef.
A. I do not think you could call yearlings merchantable beef.  Their
weight was taken, but they were not counted at all. They were good
beef, though, because they were tender, but, at the same time, I would
not think of shipping yearlings to the Chicago market.
Q. Beef that would weigh on the hoof less than 500 pounds, would
you call that merchantable beef in the market?
A. N\~ell, no; not 500 pounds, because you could not sell a lot of cattle averaging 500 pounds in any beef-market as merchantable beef;
but stock-men would buy them.
Q. Could you, in any market you kiiow of, sell cattle weighing less
than 500 pounds as merchantable beef?
k No, sir.
By ~[r. ATlIERTON:
Q. You were speaking just now of the issue of cattle oil November 14.
You spoke of the cattle as having come in a little late. I)o you remember anything about who drove them here?
A. Mr. Bosler and his herders, I believe.
Q. J)o you remember distinctly whether eithci of the Messrs. Losler
were here at the time?
A. I think Mr. George Bosler was here at thc time; I ain tolerably
certain he was.
Q. Is there any circumstance by wl~ich you can rt'call it to a certainty? 
32(3
A. No; I do iiot remenber anything nunsual about it, but I have no
doubt he was here.
Q. Do you remember liis saying ai~ytliiiig about his having to over.
drive them to get them here?
A. No, sir; nor a~~y one el~e.
Q. Do you remember a'iythiiig about Mr. Bosler, or any one else con~ected with the driving of them, apologizing for the poor condition of
the cattle on the grouiid that they were obliged to hurry them to get
them here?
A. No, sir.
By Mr. liARRIS:
Q. liave you ever made that statement ~
A. No, sir; I do not remember it.
(Q.liave you any kiiowledge that ~nch l~as sometimes been the fact?
A. I know last winter the men started to drive some cattle up here
which got away from them for two or three days. They went after
them again, an~t I think it was the fourth day before they succeeded in
getting them here, but it was very cold weather then.
By Mr. ATllERTON:
Q. ~Vhat was the condition of those cattle when they came in?
A. I di(l not see them.
Q. liave you ever known the agency herd to be stampeded ~
A. There were some lost here last fall in that way, after they were
received.
Q. About what time last fi~ll?
A. It was some time in September.
(~.Do you know what became of those cattle?
A. The herder came down and reported to the agent that they were
lost. The agent was very mnch vexed because the herder did not find
it out for a day or two, and he told him to find them and drive them in.
Fe said it was impossible they could be lost, there were so many of
them.
Q. Fow many were there?
A. I think about ~00 or over.  The agent asked liiui to go out and
find them and bring them back.  lie did so, and came back and reported that his opinion was that they had gone into Mr Bosler's herd.
Q. ~~here they would naturally go?
A. Yes, sir; and the agent told Mr. Bosler he would have to return
the number of head that were lost, and Mr. Bosler said he would return
him all the cattle he found belonging to the agency which had gone into
his herd. Fe set some men oil the trail, and they had some difference
of opinion on the matter. Finally Mn Bosler returned liim 150 head,
and said that, in his opinion, that was all. The agent did n~t drop the
difference. Fe still Cirried them in his papers into the fourth quarter.
Q. Did he still continue to hunt for the remaining 50, or did he rest
on the conclusion that they had gone into the herd ~
A. lie made careful search, and, I think, a few more were found.
The herder's statement sets that forth particularly, and it was forwarded
to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
Q. What means did the herder employ, or what means had lie of distinguishing these cattle which had stampeded irom the agency herd, and
gone back into Bosler's herd?
A. All I know is that he went on the track, and that he would tell
them by their looking gaunt, and where they were scouring. 
327
By Mr. FAULkNER:
(~.~Ir. Roberts, how did it happeii that after havin~ been seven or
eight months acting as clerL for the agent you ceascd to act in that capacity?
A. ~Vell, sir, I did not wish to clerk any more.  I did not wish to remain any longer, and I quit.
By the CiiAiRMAN:
Q. Now, Mr. Roberts, I would like to iiiquire of yon about some other
matters. Do you know of any Indiai~ supplies being taken to the ti-ader~s store and sold to tiie Indians?
A. No, sir; I do not.  I heard some talk about it, and saw some letters iii the newspapers about it.
(~.You never knew anything of it yourself?
A. No, sir I did not, no in ore thaii hearsay.
(~.Did you ever know of Dr. Savill&s borrowing floin the trader
sonie two barrels of sugar, or any other quantity of sugar, aiid afterward returning it to him`~
A. I do not remember anything of that kind.  There was some sugar,
I think returned at one time to the trader.  I think it was returned to
him for an amount of sugar which the agent had got from hi in to make
a feast for tlie Indians.  I do not remember the quantity. I kiiow it was
not a great deal.  It was during the time the commission was here last
summer talking about the settlement of the Republican con i~ try. The
agent had to make a feast for the Indians, and he procured some sugar
from one of the traders and returned it to him afterward.
Q. Did you ever know of any Indian goods being sold at the agency
by tlie traders, or by the agent, or by anybody else?
A. No, sir.
(~.Did you ever know of any Indian goods being ~oId for less than
what the freight would cost to move them here?
A. No, sir; I do not know of any Indian goods being sold.
Q. Did you ever know of Agent Saville's receipting for five or si~
fliousand pounds or any other quantity of beef that was never delivered,
during the months of July and August, 1874 ~
A. No, sir.
(~.Did you ever know of his receipting to Mr. ~IcCanu for 1,50()
poniids of freight which was never shipped?  Have you got in your possession, or did you ever have in your possessioli, any papers showing that
Dr. Savilie had done any of these thii~gs?
A. No. sir, I did not.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Did you ever know of his giving receipts for more beef than he received?
A. No, sir, not to ~y knowledge.  He receipted for just what he received, so far as I know.
By ~Ir. HARRIS:
Q. Something has been said in some of tlie ~~apers we have concerning Dr. Savilie's havin~ made a contract with Mr. ~fcCaun for the l)ur.
chase of some oxen, [ thiiik, aiid issnilig receipts for theni, when none
were ever received.
A. I know nothing of that.
(~.Do you kiiow anything about a correspondence which took place
between Dr. Saville aiid the Iiidian Department upon that subject
A. Thc agent wrot~' some time during the suiiimcr, wheit Inspector 
328
Pevier was here, ind he asked me some questions about it, and I told
hil)i I knew notliiu~ more of it than the agent's letter contained.
Q. You know th t the oxen were never purchased?
A. ~Veli, they w(~re finally purchased. I do not know but that they
were purchased at that time, although they were not here. The agent
said he had purcha~ed them, and that they were en route.
Q. You do not k~~ow anything about it personally?
A. No more than there is in his letter to the Commissioner.
Q. liave you knowii freighters to buy their supplies of flour or corn
at any time from the Indians or the squaw-men?
A. No, sir.
Q. You have heard it?
A. ~~ell, these men arouiid here have had more flour oii hand than
they wanted to use; but I do not know ot' any suj)~)1ies of flour or anything of that kind in tlie possession of these men having been sold.
Q. Do you know of I~andall's having a large quantity in his house?
A. I think I do, but the Indians laid it up for hiin.
Q. Is he asquaw-man?
A. lie has an Indian family.
Q. Do you know of his selliiig to the freighters ~oods wh0ch had been
shipped to the Indians?
A. No, sir.
Q. lias it not been said among you that such things have happened ~
A. \Ve have had no understanding of that kind.
Q. You have not heard it?
A. I may have heard it, but I cannot call it to miiid. The men who
come here generally have enough to last theni during the journey back.
I have seen theill go iii to the trader's stores and buy supplies, but I do
not know of ai~y particular transaction with squaw-men or anything of
that kind.
RED CLOUD AGE~cy,  NE13RA~KA,
~Vednesday, August 11, 1875.
Present:lion. TuOMAS C. FLE~c~~u, chairman; Prof. GEORGE ~V.
ATHERTON, lion. B. W. liARRIS, aiid lion. CuARLEs J. FAULKNER.
~In JAMES ROBERTS was recalled.
By the CllAIRMAN:
()uestion. ~Ir. Roberts, some questions have arisen in rega~i to some
provisions, ~e., which were said to have passed from tlie w;ireliouse to
~Ir. ~Yalter 5 store at tlie time when you were tlie cleik.  Do you know
anything about it ~
Answer. I will say just what I said last night. There was some stuff
got of the trader by the agent at the time the comalissioners were here
to treat for the relinquishment of the right to hunt on tlie Republican,
which the agent promised to return. lIe wanted these things to make
a feast for the Indians. The provisions consisted of su~ar, rice, and
so~e other articles-brown sugar; and I doii't kiiow but what there
was some coffee.  lie said he had no funds to pQv for them, but would
return them in kind when they caine; and he did so.
Q. Did lie return all kinds?
k I think it was all returned in sugar.
Q. N\~ill you tell, as near as you can, how much su~ar`v;~S returiied ~
A. I think one or two barrels; not more ~han two. I was in the
office, and he told me to see that it was returned, and I directed ~ir. 
329
Tibbets, who was then acting as store-keeper, to return it, and he did
so.  It (lid not exceed two barrels of sugar.
Q.NN~as ~Ir. Oliver Appleton then the commissary?
A.lie was appointed soon after.  ~Ir. Tibbets was there at the time.
Q.Do you know of any blue cloth from the agency going into the
bands of the trader?
A.I do not, sir.
Q.~Vhen did you cease to be the agency clerk?
A.Last September.  So far as I knew, no blue Indian cloth was ever
traiisferred to the trader on any occasion.  I kiiow nothing about it;
never heard of it before. ~Ir. ~Valters was trader at the time of the
su~~ar transaction, and so was Mr. Deer; and some was returned to hini
at the same time-a small quantity.  Several reports of this kind have
ap~~eared in the newspapers, but I knew nothing of such transactions.
I would have been likely to know if they had occurred, because [ was in
the warehouse. And I don't believe that such an exchange was ever
n~ade as is stated in the pal)ers.
Q.liave you ever known of the persons in charge of the goods in the
warehouse ever taking the goods out and selling them?
A.No, sir.  I was accused of doing so, and Mr. Appletoi~ was accused
of it, by Mr. Stover, who wrote it up for the Omaha lierald and the
Cheyeniie papers.  I paid no attention to it, becai~se I (lid not feel interested enough in it to do so. I did not think it worth while.
PLED CLOUD AGENCY, NE~nAsKA,
I'nesday, August 17, 1S75.
Presei~t: llon. THoMAS C. FLETcHER, chairmaii; lion. TIMOTHY 0.
liOWE, lion. CllARLEs J. FAULKNER, lion. B. ~V. liARRIS, ai~d Prof.
(A EORGE W. ATHERTON.
Mr. JAMES ROBERTS was rec{illed.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.You were here about the time of the last issue of annuity-goods,
I believe?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Do you ki~o'v anything of a piece of Indian cloth that went from
the ageiiey to the trader's store?
A.I know ofa piece ofcloth that was issued to Red Cloudashisprivate
ani)nity.  lie claimed, as chief, that he ought to have a little extra, as
~s customary to give them, and he told tlie agent he would like his to
be in the shape of a piece of blue cloth.  N\~hen you asked me the other
evening if I knew of any doth being issued or being stoleii, I (lid not
think, but I recollect now that there was this ~)iece given to Red Cloud;
and if there was any Indian cloth taken to the trader's store it was
that piece.  lie took it down aiid gave it to Mr. ~Valtcrs, the trader,
for something which he had      from hi in.  The cloth was issued to
P~ed Cloud, as he wanted his annuities as chief in that extra piece of
cloth, and the agent told me to give it to hirn.  I did so; and he
wanted me to carry it for him. I would not do it; aiid he then gave
it to a Mexican, and they both went off together.  I never saw that
I)iece of cloth afterward in the store, and if I had I would not have
iioticed it particularly.  I do not kiio'v how large tlie bolt was. It
was double width, and the kiiid of cloth they usually issue to the Iiidians for leggings. 
:330
By Mr. liARRIS:
~? Yon nnderstood at the tii~e that P~ed (?loud intended to sell that
~lotli to ~tr. ~Valters?
()~ ~Vell, he said that lie inten4c~l to sell it to ~~r. ~Valters for something he owe~I in a former transaction whieL lie had with ~Ir. ~Valters,
and that wonld settle it.  I was assisting the agent at th~ time, aiid I
don~t know that he told the age lit what he waiited it for.  I don't remember that Ped Clond told ttie a~ent that he inteiided to give it to
~Ir. ~Valters.  They sell blne cloth at the trader's store all the time, and
very prol~ably i>~Ld Clond had gotten some of it from him, and he wanted
to pay it back iii tlie same kind; that is what I niiderstood abont it at
the time. I told the agent abont this, aiid he said he did not care what
he di(l with it, as he was cii titled to tlie blne cloth aiid wanted it; he
might do as he pleased with it.
(~.Do yon kiiow of any other cloth being sold at the trader's?
A. I kiiow iiotliing of any other blac clot Ii going to tlie trader's store
besides that.
[Dr. Sav~lle, the agent, explained here, that he was told somethiiig
about this matter, but le paid no atteiition to it, as he supposed it was
~he same blue cloth he had given to Red Clond.1
Q. Do you kiiow anything of the l~abit of the Indians sdliiig their
flour?
A. I believe they are in the habit of taking it around to the white
men and leaving it with them, and selling it to some of fliem, and giving it to some ot. theu~ for almost nothing.  I cannot say if they Ii ave
sold it to the traders.  I have never seen any of the traders having flour
for sale.  I never knew of one of tlie traders taking it.  They (the
Indian~) iiiay have a few sacks ahead  they doii't eat it like sugar aiid
bacon, anti they inay s~ll it, bnt I have tiever seen any of it s9ld.
Dr.,I. J S~ville, the agent, being asketl what was the usual amount
of extra goods given to the chiefs, said: That matter is merely in the
discretion of the agent.  The chiefs ii ave many frieiids come to see
-them, and they (the chiefs) are in the habit of giving them goods and
rations, so as to keep np their influeiice among their people.  And this
~s one of the most difficult questions the ageilt lias to deal with.  The
Indian people insist that the chiefs have these extra rations aiid goods.
Bnt it is now being gradnally broken down. I generally give the chiefs
about double ratioliS, and sometimes three rations, if they httve a small
family.  At a con neil last year the men requested ine to keep back a
certain amount for the chiefs.  I did so, but the chiefs were dissatisfied
with the amount which I gave to Red Clond.  Last year when we issued the goods they agreed that the chief slionld receive his share froin
the agent.  I told them it was better for them  to fix the amount they
should give the el~ief, and they said they waiited the agent to do it,
and they told nie to allow I~ed Cloud a share, and I gave him that piec
of cloth. 
~31
P~ED CLOUD AGENCY, NEBRASKA,
T~~esday, A ugust 10, IS 75.
Present: Lfoii. TllOMAS C. FLETCllEP, el~airm;in; Prof. C~EoRGE ~V.
ATRERTON, lloii. CllARLES J. FAULKNi~R, an~l [1()ii. J)) ~\~ HARnIS.
TESTIMONY OF F. Ji). YATES.
Py the CHAIRMAN:
Question. ~Yhat is your busiiiess lIcre, ~Ir. Yates?
Answer. Indian trader.
Q. liow bug have you been here?
~. I have beeii here as Indian tU~dCr since tl~e 13th ~1)ril of this year.
Q. ~~ere you here before that?
A. Yes, sir.  I have been connected with  the S1)otted Tail agency
siiice the agencies were establishe~l.
Q. N\~ere you here last November aiid December?
A. I was either here or at Spotted Tail a~e[icy.  I tliiiik I was here.
Q. ~Vere you here at the time Professor;\larsh was here, when he was
going up after bones?
A. I was not.
Q. ~Vere you here when he caiiie back?
A. I was not.  I saw him at Ch~venne before lie caiiie here.
Q. Were you here during last wiiiter?
A. I was here a number of times dtiriiig last winter.
Q. When you were here, did you observe the kind of rations that
were being issued to the Indians?
A. Not particularly those that were issued here.  I saw those that
were issued at Spotted Tail, and I uiiderstood that they were the same
kind, ard came from the same contractor
Q. Do you remember observing the flour, either here or at Spotted
Tail, which was issued last winter?
A. I remember seeing a good deal of it.
Q. What kind of flour was it?
A. It struck ine as being a very fair article of flour.  I have seen
some a good deal worse, and some better.
Q. Did you examine much of it with any particularity?
A. Yes, sir, I did examine a good deal of it.  T[ie Iu~liaiis were leaving it in iny store.  They would store it in there after drawing it, before
taking it home, and I saw a good deal of it.  They would leave it there
until they would have an opportunity to take it to their lodgcs.
Q. Di(l you ever observe ally of that flour, that was not fit to make
bread of
A. I never saw any which was unfit to use.
~Q.Did you ever iiotice the kind of coffee that was issued last winter?
A. I saw some of the coffee and used some of it; in fact drank it all
wiii ter.
Q. What kind of coffee was it?
A. It was very good coffee.  We used it in our niess all winter.
Q. Was it the kind of coffee you buy to sell to white ~ieople?
A. It was as good as I am selling to the Indians.  ~Ve had no sale
for coffee to them last wiiiter, or in flict to any oiie.  We?~id not keep
it.  The Indians had plenty aiid we had iio sale for it.
Q. Did you ever hear 1~ed Clon~l or iLCd Dog talk a~~ou the sample
of ~offee they gave Professor Marsh?
A. I heard P~ed Dog tell Pallarday that they pici~ed tl e coffee of 
332
which they ~ave a satni)le to Professor?\Iarsh out of quite a quantit~,
and t1~ey 1)icked the worst graills they could find.  They picked, as ie
said, wll the black grains.
By Mr. liARRIS:
(~.~Vhen was this
A. I think abont a month ago.  I do not recollect positively.
Q. Since Professor Marsh~s statement has become known?
A. Yes, sir. The occasioll of it was I was reading the papers, and
Red Dog was in my store.  I turi~ed round and asked Pallarday to ask
liim if he gave these samples; and, if so, why he did it, and he told
Pallarday that he picked them out of tlie black grains of coffee mid
gave them to Professor ~1arsh out of quite a quantity.  I asked him
why he (lid it, and he said be did it because Professor Marsh asked him
for it. That was all I asked him.
Q. Did you ever know of any Indian supplies being sold by the
agent to traders or anybody else?
A. I uever knew or heard of any.
Q. Do you know of the Indians selling a good deal of flour to
freighters, or anybody else?
A. I never knew of their selling to freighters, but they ocoasionally
sell flour to some white men who are living with them.
Q. Do you know of their selling to traders?
A. No. I suppose they sell occasionally a sack or so to traders for
their ow'i use, but not in ai~y quantities.
Q. Did you ever know of ally quantity of Indian flour being taken
from here to Sidiiey?
A. ~o, sir.
Q. Did you ever observe the herds of bcef~catUe that were brought
here for delivery to the agency?
A. I have seen a good niany of them here and at Spotted Tail.  They
came from the same herd.
(~.~Vhat was the general character of these cattle as far as you saw
them?
A. They were always very good cattle, and pronounced so by stockmen generally.
Q. Do ~ou remember seeing any of them last fall or winter, or along
towards last spring?
A. Yes, sir; I saw a good many of them and handled a great many
hides which were taken off then~.
Q. ~Vere they what you would call good-sized Texas cattle?
A. They were.
(~.I~id you ever see any of them weighed?
A. I never saw any of then weighed here.  I saw one lot weighed at
Spotted Tail, and stood at the scales with Mr. ~Yillard, tlie clerk, when
be weighed them.
Q. Do you recollect about what they averaged?
A. I knew exactly at the time, but I cannot remember now.  It was
something over 1,000 pounds.  I have forgotten the exact amount.
Q. And those cattle were about an average of the cattle you saw
delivered here?
A. Yes, sir; they were.
Q. ~Vere they steers or cows?
k Steers and cows; mostly steers.
Q. Four-year~old~steers and upwards? 
3ao3
A.Yes, sir. They were what is termed in this country he~ves, which
require to be four years old.
Q.~~ere they what you term in this country through Texas cattle, or
cattle that had been here a season?
A.Some of them were through cattle, and some of them were wintered cattle, which had been kept here one winter, cattle which come up
here from Texas and spend one winter either on the plaitis here or in
RanS~S.
Q.Have you any recollection now of what was the average weight of
the hides received at your tra~ling.establishment at Si)otted Tail agency
compared with the average weight of hides received at this i}lace ~
A.They would run about the san~e.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
(? And that is about how much
A. About 25 pounds dry flint.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q.Such hides weigh about how much when green?
A.I do not know. I never weighed aiiy of them.  I should judge
they would weigh about 70 or SO pounds.  They are very heavy.
(?. Ijudgefroin whatyou say that you have been trading with the
Indians for a considerable le'~gth of time-since 1869?
A.Yes, I have been connected with the Indians, directly or indirectly,
for about eight years. I was at the military post at Fort Laramie and at
Fort Fetterman before I came here.
Q.Then you have seen a good deal of the Indians?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Do you know anythiiig of their general disposition in regard to
their being satisfied or dissatisfied with what they get and what is done
for them ~
A.Yes, sir. I have a very good idea of it. I ~ever yet saw an Indian
who was satist'ed with anything he got.  Tlle more he gets the more he
wants.
CllEYENNE, ~V. T., ~Vcdtiesday, tugust 25, 1875.
Present: flon. TlloMAs (?. FLLTcltER, cliairmai~: Hon. B. F. HARRIS,
Hon. CHARLLS J. FAULKNER, Hon. TIThIOTHY (). [lOWE, and Plof.
~LORGE W. ATllERToN.
Mr. F. D. YATES was recalle~l.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Qt~estion. Did you accompai~y ~Ir. Bosler ill the delivery of ally cattle
in the winter of 1875 ~
Answer. I did not accolapaily ~Ir. Bosler iii tlie delivery of ally cattle.
~Ir. Bo~ler went down fi~m 1~ed Cloud agency to Spotted Tail witlj me
and told ine he was goii)g to see about sonie cattle.  I supl)osed he was
goiilg to get his receipts for cattle already delivered.
Q.~Vhat did von titld wl~en yo~ got there?
A.N\~e met some of Bosler's ii~~r~iers on the way back, about the 11) iddle of Febru;iry, between the lit ti ai~~l the 1(5th.
Q.Did you see youn~elf t1~at t~iere were ally cattle delivered at that
titte-in February, 1875?
A.I know there were some del~veiel.
Q.J)id you see them?
A.Yes, sir; and got their hides. 
334
~? II~~ve you any idea of the quantity
A.  N~) sir  I do not know what tlie quantity was.
(~. Ccnld you judge of their con~lition and character YO!i1 tlie hides?
A.  Tl~ey were very good hides-average hidcs.
Q.  Dii you see tiie cattle yourself
A.  I saw some, but not all of them.  I saw, the day we got in, tlie Indians chasing some cattle.
Q.  Cattle which bad been issued?
~A. ~~es, sir; they were chasing them to kill them after their issue.
Q.  Could you form any estimate from the numberof hides yon received
of the ii umber of cattle delivered on that occasion ~
k I could not say now; I could tell from ii0y books at home. I was
then one of the traders at Spotted Tail agency.
(~. You were liviiig at the Spotted Tail agency in 1575?
A.  I was, sir.
Q.  have you any knowledge of the fact of any great aniount of starvatioii among the Indians?
A.  No, sir.  There were twenty days that they had uo issue of beef.
I understood it was afterward made ~ip to tlie~u iii large issues.
By Mr. ATllERTON:
Q.  Are you able to say, of your own knowledge, that there was no
longer period than twenty days?
A.  It was the extcnt of two issues-twenty days.  There was one
period of twenty days during which no issue was made.
Q.  Are you able to say of your own knowledge that there was no
longer period than twenty days during which there was no issue of
beef?
A.  I am.
Q.  Did you see all the issues of beef?
A.  1 saw very few issues, but I got a 1)ortion of their hides, and 1
l~new they were issued.
By Mr. FAiTLKNLR:
Q.  Can y()u give us any idea of the condition of tlie Indians during
that period?  What was their condition as to food or starvation?
A.  I ii ever beard of any great amount of starvation there. I am sure
the Indians are always grumbliiig.
Q.  Did you hear anythiiig of their beiiig so destitute tbat they were
compelled to kill and eat their ponies?
A.  I heard it at Cheyenne, not at the agency.
By the CllAiR~AN:
Q.  Mr. Yates, do you remember about tlie time that the Spotted
Tail agency was reiuoved ~o its present loc;ition?
k Yes, sir.
(~. About what time was that
A.  I think it was about the l'~tter I)art of September, or the first of
October, iS 74.
Q.  Do you know who liad the contract for tfli~sporting the supplies
from the old ageuQv to the new?
A.  No, sir.  Pardon me but they move~t tlie agency tw cc-once to
a point about twelve miles below where the Red Cloud igency is, and
afterwards to where it is now.
Q.  For which removal was it that Dr. Graves had a coiitract?
A.  That was for the removal of the agency from twelve iiiiles below 
335
where the present ~ed Cloud agency is to a point oii the N\~hite P~iver,
near tlie mouth of Beaver Creek.
Q.~Yho did the most of the work of transporting the material and
sui)i)lies of the agency ~
~.I did most of it inyselfl
~? Did yon ever get paid for it
~.I di(1 liot.
Q.Did you get a voucher for it?
~.I did not. I got ~Ir. GraveKs dr~ft 01) I)osey ~Vil~on, a baiiker iii
Cii~venne, which I considered as nothing. I retnri~ed the iraft and
took hack my bills of lading.
Q.I~id ~Ir. Graves every get liis pay fro~i~ tlie Goveri~i~~ent?
A.I thijik not, sir.  I stated that I gave him back liis draft. I merelv
~)~~ hiin an order to get his draft, i r tlie Governn~ent should ignore
iiis voi~elier and l)ay him nothing.
(~. Do you ktiow any reason wliy ~[r. Graves iiever got liis pay?
A.I do not.  Graves h;id a contract with tlie agent to relnove the
agelicy, aiid there was some hurry iii ren)ovii)g it. The contract was
given to Graves without the apI)roval of the Coii~mi~siot~er, npon the
supposition that the Commis~ioiier wonld a~~prove it. lie afterwards
disapproved tlie contract, and that is the reason, I suppose, Graves did
not get his pay or a voucher. Ii) the mean time the work had been done.
I did work to t!~e amount of ninety-six huiidred dollars, for tlie re
~noval of the agency-Indian goods, snpl)lies, buildings-from the old
Spotted Tail agenQy to the one on ~Vhite P~iver.  That was in 1873.
~Ve coinnienced removing about tlie 1st January, and finished iii April.
I have never been paid for it.
By Mr. llOWL~:
Q.Do you know by whose order that removal was made?
A.It wa~ made by tiie order of tlie Comniissioiier, as I understood it.
It was the desire of theGovernuient to have it removed. I saw several
letters statiji that the agenQy should be removed.
Q.llow long di'J it remaiii at the niouth of Beaver Creek?
A.I thiiik something over a year.
By the CHAIRMAN:
(~. Then it was removed to its preselit location ~
A Yes, sir; that is about teii iiiiles above the month of Beaver Creek.
That is its preselit location. It reniained there at tlie mouth of Beaver
Cret~k from Jai~nary 1, 187:3 to Sel~teinber or October 1874
removed to its present locatioii.,, when it was
By Mr. liOWE:
Q.~Vhen was it located 0!) ~~~hite i~(rtl1 P~iver, where you moved it
froni?
k I thilik it was moved there ii) tlie wiiiter of 1871 or 187>.  I was
not theic at flie time it was locat~d at that poiiit, bat it was some time
dnrin~ the winter of 1871 aiid 1~72.
Q.~~here wa~ it moved from then?
A.It was nioved froin a 1)OiIit ()I) a creek kiio'vn is j)~g ~~~liite Clay,
which (~mj)ties iii to N\~liite 1~ivcr, aiid iiiove~t from  the ~fissouri first to
this Bi~ \Vliite Clay.
(? iJ ow far is this Big ~~~liitc (~`lay froiii tli;it 1)oirit oii tl~e ~\~l~itc Earth
P~iver to which it was removed iii 1871
A.I do liot know  I shoal~l j~i~lge al~oiit scveiity.five iiiilcs.
Q.N~~liat was tiliS rcn~oval?  ~N' hat (lid yoii have to transl)ort? 
336
A. Rations, bacon, sngar, coff~-e, flour, lumber, and the tools of the
~gency-plows and blacksmith-to~1s, carpenter~tools, &c.
Q. ~Vere the buildings taken down?
A. Part of them were. The b(~st of the liijnber was taken out and
the buildings taken dowii in ordei to hurry tiie buildings they put up
there. There were two frame war~houses taken down, I thiiik.
Q. N\~hat buildings were left standing?
A. None, except some log.buildiiigs.  The agent's office and two warehouses were left standin~ at the old place. Those were constructed of
logs by the employe's.  I was there at the time tl~ey were put up.
RLD CLOUD A~~NC~~, NEBRASKA,
~Vednesday, 4~~g?~st 11, 1S7o.
Pre~ent:lion. TflOMAs C. KLET~llE~, chairman; Prof. GEORGE ~Y
ATRERTON lion. B. F. liARRIs and llon. CilARLES J. FAULKNER.
TESTIMONY OF LEON PALLARDAY
By tlie CllAiR~AN:
Question. Mr. Pallarday, we want to make a few ii0quiries of you in
regard to which yon can give us some information.  liow loi~g ii ave you
beeli in tlie Indian country?
Answer. I have beeii here since 1S47  I have been during tlie greater
i~'~rt of that time with the Sionx.  I have been at the Red Cloud agency
since last spring; I came here in April.  I was here last summer em~~loye(l as a guide by the Goveriiment; I have beeii employed for the
last eight or teti years by the Government as a guide and interpreter.
Q. Can you speak to any Indians besides the Sioux?
A. Yes, sir; I can make myself understood by any other Indians.  I
can slieak to the Cheyennes very well by signs, as every word has.~
sigil with them.
(~)i)o you kiiow aiiytliii~g, of your own knowledge, ahout the character ot the supplies aiid aniiuity-goods issued here last fail?
A. No, sir; I was not here.
Q. Have you ever heard any of the Indians saying anything about
the supplies they were getting?
A. They have never said anything to me, sir; I have heard them
talking among themselves; I paid ilo attentioti to it, because they were
talking amOi)~~ themselves and it did not coijeern me.
Q. Did you ever hear Re(l Dog say aiiything at~ont tlie samples of
coffee lie gave!o Professor Marsh ~
N Yes sir; I heard liim say somethii~g about it befoi'e lie went to
tbe )~Iissouri River; be has gotie there now with the commissioners.
Q. N\~liat did he say about that saniple of coffee?
A. lie sai~l that lie and Red Clou~l had tied those samples up an~i
given them to Protessor ~Iarsh; they called hitu the nun that picked
boii Cs.
Q. Did he say where they got tlie s~~m~~les?
k They were talkitig about that one ~l;iy, and I itiquired how they
got all this coffee.  lie sai~l they 1)icked the bad gr;lins out of the coflee
iii the warehouse.  I asked how they got all this bad coffee, and they
said they picked it out.
Q. lild he heard of Professor Marsh's charges about those things? 
~
337
A. Yes, sir; I think he had. It was the very day of the conversation
between us and Red Dog that turned on this subject.  lle said they
picked out all the bad grains of coffee.
Q. Who was present at that time ~
A. I don't recollect whether Mr. Yates was there or not, nor do I remember if Mr. Roberts was. There were some Indiaiis there, but I think
no white men.  The conversation took place in front of Mr. Yates's
store.
Q. Do you remember any occasion wheii Mr. Yates asked you to ask
Red Dog about those things?
A. Yes, sir; Mr. Yates asked me to ask Red Dog how he got those
samples.  I did not see him at that time, but it was afterwaul, and I
told Mr. Yates about it.  Mr. ~ates speaks the Sioux language a little.
Q. Did you ever hear the Indians say anything about aiiy other samples of supplies they got?
A. No, sir, I did not; only what they said before you yesterday.
Q. Did you ask Red Dog, or did he inform you, in regard to the manner in which these other samples were selected?
A No, sir, he did not; only in regard to the coffee.  lle said he had
sent other samples, but I did not ask what they were.
Q. llave you ever seen the herds of cattle that were issued here ~
A. No, sir; I never was here while any cattle were issued; I have
always been in the store; I never went to the corral.
Q. In your frequent conversations with the Indians, particularly with
the head men, what do you gather from them as their wish in regard
to the supplies that are furnished them? What kind of supplies do they
inost desir~or do they desire some changes?
A. From what I can understand from the Indians, the supplies they
are getting now are the kind they want, but they don't want pork; they
want bacon instead.
Q. Do they want rice?
A. Yes, sir, they do; and also tea.
Q Do they desire to have clothes like white men, instead of blankets,
issued to them?
A. I don't think they all would; probably a few would.
TESTIMONY OF TODD RANDALL.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. llow long have you been in this country?  -
Answer. I have been in the Indian country for tweuty-six years. I have
been with the Ogallalla and Brule' Sioux since 1S68.  During that time
I Ii ave been employed as interpreter and sub-agent.  I was here last
fall, when Professor Marsh was here, in November.  1 remember noticing the kind of supplies that were being issued to the Indians at that
time. I saw the coffee that was issued  It was a very common kind of
coffee; such as is generally used in the western country. I noticed the
sugar; it was not a very good article of sugar.  It would have b~en
good enough, but it was dirty.
Q. Was it such as not to be made use of by the Indians?
A. They did use it.  I noticed the flour also.  There was some v~ry
good and Some very bad flour.  Some that they could not use.
22 1 P 
33S
did       spoiled, or was it m~de out of
they        n~e
bad wheat?
A.I don't know abont that.  It was very dark aiid r~usty.  It must
have been damaged, but I could not tell how; it was cc~~tainly unfit for
use.
Q.Ilow much bad flour was there compared with the whole amount?
A.I cannot say. There was a considerable quantity cf it. In fact, it
was only now and then that you could get some goo(l flour.
Q.~Yas the bad flour branded with the inspector's brand?
A.Yes, sir, but I don't recollect what inspector. It had been inspected
at Cheyenne, I believe, or at Cain p Caning.
Q.Do you kiiow what the Indians did with the bad flour?
A.They fed it to their ponies, and what the ponies would not eat they
threw away.
Q.Do you know of any flour having gone from here to Sidney during
last spring?
A.No, sir, I do not.
Q.Do you kiiow of any flour being hauled from the agency or this
neighborhoo~l to any other point?
A.No, sir.
Q.Did you notice the blankets that were being issued last winter?
A.Yes, sir.  I was present at the issue.
Q.Do you recollect how many bales there were?
A.I do not. I did not count them.  I heard the Indians talking
Iabout the blankets. They complained more about the quantity than the
qnality. They did not like the brand being on them.
Q.llave you ever noticed if the brand injured the blankets?
A.No, sir; I never noticed that it did.
Q.~~hat oi~ectiou do they make to the brand?
A.They don't like it on their blankets.  They don't want any mark
on them.
Q.Did you see the herd of cattle that was driven into the corral
to-day ~
A.No, sir.
Q.Did you see the beef-cattle that were issued during last fall and
spring?
~~ I did, in the early part of the fall.  I was sick during tbe winter,
and did not go out to see them. I did not see the cattle that were issued
for October, but previous to that time I saw all the cattle that were
driven in.
Q.N\~hat kind of cattle were those you saw?
A.They were very fair Texas c~tttle; about like all tlie cattle they
drive in this country. They were cows and steers mixed.
Q.Did you notice any yearlings or calves?
A.There might have been a few of that kind driven in with the large
steers and cows which they geiierally furnish.
Q.Do you know anything of any Iiidian siipp~ies being taken from
the agency and disposed of to any of the traders around here?
A.I don't know of anythin~ being taken from the agency, but they
traded some sugar in fl~e traders' stores that was of the same quality
that was issued to the Indians.  It was stated by men here that it was
taken from the stores here, from ~Ir. ~Yalters' store, but I don't know
the fact myself.  ~Ir. N\~alters is not here now; he sold out to ~~r. Yates.
Q.Did you ever know or hear of any other Indian goods or supplies
being traded? 
339
A. Some Indian cloth was traded in the same plaee.  This was some
time after the annuities were issued in the winter.
Q. Do you know where Mr. N\~alters is now ~
A. I think he is in Omaha.
(~.Is there any one here 110W who was employed in ~Ir. N\~alters'
store at that time?
A. There are two men-George Stover and James Pulliam.
(~.Do you know if Pulliam is here now?
A. I think he is out buying lumber for the miller.  Stover is out
buying cattle on the Running NYater.  lie may be in here to-morrow.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. N\~hat do you know personally about sugar being traded to Mr.
N'aiters?
A. I know nothing, only from seeing the quality of sugar, which
was the same sugar as was in the agency.  I bought some of it.
Q. Had you ever used any sugar from tlie eommissary of the agency?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~?ere you entitled to receive it
A. Yes, sir.
Q. N\~hat do you know about fl)C Indian cloth ~
A. Nothing at all, sir.
Q. You say you understood it was sold from Mr. ~Valters' store ~
A. Yes, sir; Mr. Pull jam tol(l ine that there was cloth carried out of
the commissary and sold at that store.  lie did iiot say how much.
There were about four bolts; a bolt contains about thirty-~wo yards. It
was blue Indian woolen cloth, the same as they wear now.  It was
worth four dollars per yard here.  N\~e generally pay from $2.05 to
$1.85 for it in Omaha, where it is made.
(? Did you ever see any of that cloth which you knew came from
the store?
A. I heard from the Indians that there was none of that cloth in the
country, and in a few days the Indians were buying it from the store.
(?.Did the store-keeper have that kind of cloth in his store?
A. Yes, sir; they keep it.
Q. You say the cattle which were issued in the summer, before
November, 1874, were fair Texas cattle?
A. Yes, sir.
(?.But have you had experience in cattle?
A. Yes, sir; I have dealt in cattle a great deal.
Q. Are you able to form a judgment of the extreme weight of those
<~attle, from the largest to the smallest?
A. I Saw some of them weighed, two lots, and the two lots, averaged
<),3() pounds. I saw them weighed, and am satisfied they weighed that
much. The average then was over 9()() pounds.
Q. ~Vhen was that?
A. It was in June and July, 1S74.  I think the average one time
"`as 030 pounds, and the other something like 931; I cannot s~ty Cx aetly.
Q. Did you see any poor cattle, unfit for beef, going into the hands
~f the agent last year?
A. There were some that were very poor durii~g the wiiiter, b~it they
were pressed for cattle, and it was almost impossible for him to give them
~uything to eat in this country. They were wintered oil the Platte.
(~.There were sometimes yearlings with those cattle?
A. Yes, sir; there were some sniall cattle. 
340
Q. Did you ever know of any cattle being 1)flt through that we~'e not
counted?
A. I don't remember to having seen any yearlings. They were small
cows and small calves.  They are generally taken out aiid kill~~d by
the Indiaiis, and sometimes pretty large calves are given to the 1n~ ians,
but I dont know anything about them being issued to the 1n~liaiis.
Q. Do you rein ember of the freighters ever buying flour froni the
Indians ~
A. They may have done so.
Q. Have you ever had flour in your store that you bought of the Indians?
A. Yes, sir: I have bad fifty sacks of this bad flour.
Q. How much did you give for it?
A. I sometimes gave ~2.5O per hundred for good flour, but I got this
bad flour for -$1 per hundred, and I thought it was a bad bargain at
that.  I have been engaged in teaming.
Q. Did you ever ask the ~tore-keeper at Cheyenne to allow you to
supply him with one hundred sacks of flour here, and put one hundred
sacks less on the team at that end?
A. No, sir.
Q. ~Vhat was your proposition?
A. I saw the store-keet)er at Cheyenne, and asked him if there could
be any arrangement made with the contractor to furnish him with flour
here at the ~ontract-price.
Q. That would necessarily in vol ve bringing one hundred sacks less
over tlie road ~
A. Yes, sir?~it would save the contractor the freight on one hundred
sacks from there here.
Q. How would that save hiin the freight ~
A. The man that had the flour-contract at that time had to deliver it
at the agency.
Q. N\~ith what flour did you contemplate to supply these one hundred
sacks if you could make the arrai~gement?
A. Part of it I had on hand. I bought it of the Indians.  It cost me
about 42 a sack in trade.
Q. ~~hat was the reply of the store-keeper in Cheyenne?
A. He said he did iiot know anything about the contractor's arrangements, and could not do anything himself.
Q. Did any of the freighters buy that flour of you?
A. No, sir.
Q. How did you dispose of it?
A. I fed most of it to iny mules.
Q. ~Vas it good flour?
A. No, sir: it was not.
Q. How dfd that flour you had on hand then compare with the flour
that was issued to tlie Indians last year?
A. It was about the sanie quality of flour. It all had some inspector's
brand on it.  I never examined the brand, but the b~gs were branded.
Q. Did you take notice particularly to observe the distinction between the inspectors brand and the brand of shipment?
A. I did ilot notice that, but I think I did notice that they had the
inspector's brand on them.
Q. ~~hat have been your relations toward Dr. Saville during the last
vear?
A. Dr. Sa~~iile and myself during tlie last year have not been very
friendly.  ~Vc were good friends at one time. 
341
Q. What was the cause of the change of feeling toward him?
~. I cannot say, sir.
What cause, if any, led you to have any unkind feelings toward
him ~
A. From the way he bad treated me.
Q. Were you employed here at any time ~
A. No, sir.
Q. In what way did he ill treat you?
A. Well, he has treated me pretty rough ever since last fall.  He did
most everything be could against me.
Q. What, among other things?
A. Well, the most particular thing he did was about some lumber. I
made a contract with Bishop Hare to furnish lumber for a church, pro
vided I could bave the use of the Government saw.mill and saw it with
my own "hands," (laborers.) Dr. Saville left here, and I believe he gave
orders to his clerk not to allow me the use of the mill, and after he retuu~ed
I asked him about it and he said he thought Bishop Hare had made dif.
ferent arrangements about his lumber. I told him that I had gone to
the expense of getting out the logs and bad kept mcii employed, and I
would like to have the contract so as to get my money back.  He said
he could not tell me anything about it, but would write to Bishop Hare.
I at the same time wrote to Bishop Hare, but did not get any answer,
and I discharged my men and gave up ever receiving anything. Dur
ing the winter I wanted to build a house and I asked permission of Dr.
Saville to get some logs fiom the mill, and he positively refused it but
before he left in February or the last of January, be gave me permission
to have some logs sawed, but gave his clerk orders not to allow me to
have them sawed.
Q. Do you know what it is worth to saw a thousand feet of plank an
inch thick ~ what can it be done for here with such a mill as that?
A. It can be done for about four to five dollars.
Q. You mean to get out the logs to saw?
A. No, sir; to saw them after they are here.
Q. What is it worth to get out the logs?
A. Eighteen to twenty dollars.
Q. So then the boards sawed out would bnncr
A. Yes, sir.                          ~ from $20 to $22?'.
Q. Now, what it worth to cut the timber and saw the logs?
A. I don't know what it is worth.
Q. Do you know what it is worth to saw shingles?
A. Idonot.
Q. Is there any difference between sawing the boards and planks? Is
it any cheaper to saw planks than boards?
A. I suppose it is better for the man to saw two inches than one.
Q. Did you say that it is customary for the traders to keep on hand
this blue Indian cloth?
4. Yes, sir.
Can you state when it was that this sugar and Indian cloth which
you speak of was seen in the stores of tlie traders?
A. I can tell you who was the cl~rk of the agency at that tiiiie; at the
time the sugar was taken out of the commissary, James Roberts was
the clerk, ai~d Oliver Apl)leton was the storekeel)er.
Q. And when the Indian cloth ~~as taken who was tlie storekeeper
theii ~
A. I don't remember whether it ~ as before or after Appleton left that
this cloth was taken from the comiii}ssary.  I renieniber very well when 
342
th~ sugar was taken out; I don't remember the month; it was in the f(tll
of last year, 1874; Roberts was the clerk.
~~. llow long did you say you have been living in this country?
A.. I have been here for twenty-six years tl)i5 coming fail. I have
bee 1 with these Indians since the treaty of 1S(3S.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Bad you anything to do with furnishing timber for the agency
buildings?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~Vhat proportion did you furnish?
A. I furnished 8,500 feet in this building.
Q. At what time did you receive your pay for the lumber furnished?
A. I have not received any yet.
Q. For what reason do you understand was the pay withheld? N\~hen
was it due?
A. I had no contract, but they were to pay at the end of the quarter
in which it was delivered.  I understand it has never been paid on
account of the deficiency of flinds. I don't know when I may expect it.
(~.Did you know young Appleton who was an assistant here?
A. Yes, sir; he was the clerk.
Q. Do you know anything about bis wishing or endeavoring to go
away from here before he was killed?
A. I only know it in a general way; he asked his father to allow him
to go, but his father persuaded him to remain. I know nothing of my
own knowledge; he said he wanted to go away; he did not like the way
the Indians acted and he wanted to go away; he did not express any
dissatisfiction with the nature of his dnties. A man by the name of
Johnson told ine about young Appleton wanting to leave; he was employed here. I was in Cheyenne at the time and he told me when I came
back. I think Johnson is now at Fort Fetterinan. Johnson was clerk in
place of young Appleton, who liad goi~e home because his leg was
broken.
Q. Did Johnson himself ever say anything about the manner of conducting the affairs at the agency?
A. Yes, sir. Be talked about it. I do not remember what he said.
Q. Can you give the substance of what he said about the management of affairs here?
A. lie was not altogether satisfied with the manner in which things
are managed here; he said it was not a very a~reeable place to work, and
he wanted to go away from it; he complained niore about his pay than
anything else.
Q. Do you know of any other bills in connection with the erection of
the agency buildings that are now outstaiidiiig?
A. Yes, sir; there is a voucher iiow in New York for hay, that was
put in here at the time the agency was being built. I thiiik Mr. Jones
has an account against the agency for hauling hay last year, which has
not been paid. I have an a~connt against the agent which has not been
paid; it is for articles for the use of the Indian soldiers aiid employt'sfor differeiit kinds of goods, clothes, provisions, and different kin~s of
trinkets, and sugar, tea, a'id crackers, &c.
Q. Bow much is the amount of your bill?
A. It is between five and six hundred dollars. 1 have also a few
vouchers for payment of the men who moved the saw-mill amounting
to 85 dollars.
Q. Can you show us your accounts against the agency without inconvenience? 
343
A. Yes, sir. I asked the agent to give me a voucher, or a sworn
statement of the amount, and he said lie could not give vouchers, as he
had orders not to give vouchers unless there was money for the purpose.
Q. In whose hands is this voucher for hauling bay, in 1873 ~
A. They are in mine. I had a contract in 1873 for delivering hay at
the agency. I sold the voucher to some men in Cheyenne, and they
told me the last time I was there that it had not been paid. I had paid
interest on so many vonchers, at two per cent. a month.  I sold that
one for $1,600; it was a discount of $50.  I had borrowed $900 on the
voucher, and paid two per cent. a month interest for two months, and
I did not want to keep it any longer at that rate and lose money on it.
TESTIMONY OF J. W. BOSLER.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. Mr. Bosler, please make a general statement in regard to this
matter, so far as you are concerned.
Answer. Well, so far as we are interested in this controversy, there is
just this much to show, and that is, whether we delivered the numbers,
and whether we delivered the quantity as to weight of cattle, as set forth
in the agent's receipts, according to the contract. The complaint that
Professor Marsh makes is, that we got receipts for more cattle than we
delivered, in weight and numbers. I have a few papers here which I
wish to submit to you in regard to these charges. I will state that we
delivered the cattle in acc~rdance with the contract, and these papers
and affidavits are from the parties from whom we purchased cattle, and
they show that the number of cattle receipted for were purchased and
driven to this point; and then, with a statement of the number of hides
that were purchased by persons doing business here, we will show that
we fulfilled our contract according to the numbers; and as to the quality,
we submit these papers in support of this statement. These papers
contain all the statement I wish to make in regard to the subject.
First. A sworn statement of James F. Ellison, of Sidney, Nebraska:
SIDNEY, NEaR., July 27, 1875.
This is to certify that I sold and delivered to J. H. Bosler, for the use of the Indian
contract, during the month of August, 1574, six thousand ei ht hundred head of cattle.
The said cattle were all four years of age and upward, 0 excellent quality, and in
good condition, best grade of Texas cattle, all good four-year old steers but about
twelve hundred head, which were good cows. Delivered forty-seven hundred of those
cattle on the Platte River, for the use of Red Cloud and ~~hetstone agencies. I would
estimate the weight of the entire lot at over 1,000 pounds gross. I have been em ployed in the cattle-trade for ten years; am a good judge of the weight and quality
of cattle. Handle annually from six to twelve thousand head of cattle. I know to my
personal knowlede that Mr. Bosler in his purchases of cattle for the Indian coutract
buys th~ best on t e market.
STATE op NEaRASKA,                            JAMES F. ELLISON.
Cheyenne County, 8s:
James P. Ellison, ~e1ng duly sworn, says the foregoing certificate is true in r~atter
and in fact.
JAMES F. ELLIS~N.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 28th day of July, 1875.
[sRAL.~                                        GEO. R. BALLOU,
Vota~y Public Cheyenne County, ~Thbras`~a. 
344
By the CHMRMAN:
Q. In reference to this paper, I would like to know where ~rr. Ellison
is now.
A. lie was at Ogalalla a few weeks ago, and I think he will be able
to meet you there on your return.
Second. A sworn statement of Seth ~Iaybry, of North Flatte, Nebraska:
NORTH PLATTE, NEna., Ju7y 26, l~5.
This is to certify that I sold and delivered to J. H. Bosler, for the use of the Indian
contract, during the summer of 1574, seven thousand head of cattle, all four years of
age and upward, all steers hut about three hundred-these were good cows-all of good
quality and in good condition; no better dnven from Texas. I would say the entire
lot would average 1,000 pounds gross at least.  I am one of the heaviest cattle-traders
of Texas; do drive from eight to ten thousand head annually; am a judge of the weight
and quality of cattle; delivered about four thousand head of these cattle on the
North Platte River for the use of Red Cloud and Whetstone a~encies.
SETH MABRY,
Of ~~rth P~atte, ~Thebraska.
Subscribed in my presence, and sworn to before me this 26th day of July, A. D. 1575.
[SEAL.]                                          A. H. CHURCH,
P;~obate Judge.
We were purchasing cattle for the ~Iissouri River at the same time,
and this statement shows the nutub~r of cattle we p~irchased for the
same place.
Q. Where is Mr. Maybry now?
A. lie was at North Platte when I got tile affidavit; he is a man that
can be reached.  I asked hiin to be at Cheyenne when you returned.
lie is a reliable man, and is well known in this country.  Part of these
cattle went to the North Platte and part to the Missouri River.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. These affidavits relate to cattle that were delivered by you only?
A. Yes, sir.
Third. The sworn statement of George W. Littlefleld, Sidney, Xebraska:
SIDNEY, NEBR., July 22, 1575.
This is to certify that J. H. Bosler purchased of me, for the use of the Indian con
tract, about three thousand head of cattle during the month of August, 1574, and
that such cattle were a good quality of Texas cattle, in very good condition. Part of
them I delivered on the Miasoun River, and part on the North Platte River, and, to
the best of my belief, I would estimate the Platte River herd at 1,000 pounds per head.
I am a cattle-dealer, and handle from eight to ten thousand head every season, and
drive as good quality of stock as comes to the north.  Out of the number I drove, I
sold six hundred head which was a shade better than those sold Mr. Bosler. Delivered
them in Indiana, and they weighed then 1,020 pounds-weighed on Fairbanks scales.
GLO. W. LITTLEFlELD.
Witness:
GEO. R. BALLOu.
STATE OF NEBRASKA,
Cheyenne County, 88:
Personally appeared before me, George R. Balion, a notary public in and for said
county, this 22d day of July, 1575, George`V. Littleileld, personally known to me to
be the~party who signed the foregoing, and acknowledged it to be his voluntary act
and deed.
Witness my hand and seal the day and year above written.
[SEAL.]                                        GEO. R. BALLOU,
~otary Public.
One-half went to the Missouri River and the balance to Red Cloud. 
345
Fourth. Affidavits of George Sheidley, of Ogalalla, Nebraska, atid W.
C. Irwin:
OGALAHA, N~n~., July 26, 1S75.
This is to certify that we sold to J. H. Bosler, for the use of the Indian contract, and
delivered on the Platte River, for use at Red Cloud and ~`hetstone agencies, during the
month of August, 1~4, three thousand head of good Texas cattle, driven from the
Freco country. These cattle were all good cattle, all steers, four years of age and upward, but three hundred, which were good cows, all good quality and in good condition. I would estimate the weight of them at 1.000 pounds.  I am a good judge of
cattle; have been handling and driving cattle for six years; drive and handle from
four to eight thousand head annually.                   GEORGE SHEIDLEY.
Witness:
C. FERRIs.
I was through the herd of cattle delivered by Mr. Sheidley to J. H. Bosleron its way
to the Platte River, the place of delivery, and state that the within description of
quality of the cattle of said herd and other~facts set forth therein are true.
W. C. IRVINE.
STATE OF NEBRAsICA,
Cheyenne County, 88:
W. C. Irvine, being first duly swo~n, says the matters and facts set forth above are
true, as he verily believes.                             W. C. IRVINE.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 27th day of July, A. D. 1S75.
GEO. R. BALLOU,
Notary Public, Cheyenne County, ~~bra~ko.
STATE OF NEBRAsU~,
Cheyenne County, 88:
James F. Ellison, being first duly sworn, says that he is a cattle-man, a dealer in
cattle, and a goed judge of stock; that he has read the certificate of George Sheidley;
that he, deponent, saw the cattle mentioned in said certificate, and that he knows that
said George Sheidley's statement is correct and true, and that the cattle mentioned
were goed, as stated, and the estimate of weight correct.
J~IES F. ELLISON.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 30th day of July, A. D. 1575.
(5EA~j                               Notary Public,  GEO. R. BALLOU,
Cheyenne County, Nebra~ka.
[Mr. Bosler explained that he submitted the affidavits of all these
gentlemen, because they were away, attending to business, and they could
not be present.]
Fifth. A second statement froin James F. Ellison:
STATE OF NEBRAsKA,
Cheyenne County, 88:
James F. Ellison, being first duly sworn, says that he has been for a number of years
past engaged in the cattle busine~ and is familiar with a~id a good judge of st~~ck;
that in September, 1574, one William M. Hurst, who is now iu Texas, delivered to
J. H. Bosler three thousand five hundred head of cattle, (two thousand bead being
delivered on the Platte River,) the said cattle being for the Red Cloud and Whetstone
Indian agencies.
Deponent says, further, that he saw and personally examined the above-nan~ed herd;
that the cattle were all full grown. four years of age a~~d upward, and in excellent
condition, steers a"d cows, and of good class and q~~ality in every respect, and their
average weight he estimated at about 1,0t)0 pounds.
JAMES F. ELLISON.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 31st day of July, A. D. l~75.
[SEAL.]                                              GEO. R. BALL()V
~otary Public. Cl~eyennc County, ~~eb,a~Aa.     -
Sixth. Statement of II. V. Redingtou:
SIDNEY, July 2S, 1S75.
This is to certify that I turned over to J. H. Bosler, between the 1st day of April and
the 10th day of May, 1S75, nine hundred and eigl ty-seven steens. The cattle were 
346
of good quality and of full age, three years old and upward; about two-thirds of thern
fours and fives, which would weigh 1,100 pounds.  I also turned over, between the
dates above mentioned, seven hun~lred and eighty-seven cows of good quality, four
years old and upward, averaging 900 pounds.  There were fifty-eight yearlings which
were not counted.  I aimed to cut the yearlings out, hut failed to do so. About
twenty-five head of these cattle were between two and three years old; these were
haif-bree~Is, and fully as good as the other cattle.  I base my estimate of the weights of
the cattle upon my knowledge of the weights of this class of cattle, having been engaged in shipping cattle for the last four years.
H. V. REDINGTON.
STATE OF NEBRAsEA,
Ch~yeane County:
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 28th day of July, A. D. 1875.
[SEAL.]                                              D. CARRIGAN,
Probate Judge.
This statement refers to the cattle which Lieutenant Carpenter and
Louis Reshaw allude to.  They are the cattle from which the delivery of
the 14th of November were taken from, of which Lieutenant Carpenter
and Louis Reshaw made certillcates.  We bad none other on hand.
Serenllt. Mr. N\~. C. Irvine was present when the cattle were turned
over to us, and these were the cattle that we delivered this spring on
the contract made with Mr. Paxton, after the original contract had been
filled.  llis statement and that of ~Ir. Lawrence are as follows:
KEITH'S RANCH, July 25, 1875.
This is to certify that we turned over to J. H. Bosler, on the Platte River, for the use
of the Indian contract, two hundred and forty-one head of cattle, steers and cows, all
three and four year olds.  The cattle were of good quality and in good condition, and
wintered in this country two winters.  The cattle were turned over on the 10th of May,
1875. and were driven right to Red Cloud agency for issue.  We also saw the cattle
turned over by Mr. Redington, for Adams, Redington & Co., to Mr. Bosler, in April and
May-the last lot on the 18th of May-and they were a very good lot of cattle and in
good condition, all being three years of age and upward but thirty head, which were
good half-breeds two and a half years of. age, the greater part of the whole bunch
being four-year-old steers.  I would estimate the weight of them at a thousand pound~
or over.  These, to our knowledge, were driven from the river direct to Red Cloud
agency, and consisted of between eighteen and nineteen hundred cattle.
IRVINE & LAWRENCE.
STATE OF NEBRASKA,
Cheyenne County, 88:
William C. Irvine, being first duly sworn, says that he is a member of the firm of
Irvine & Lawreiice, above named, and that the matters and facts set forth in the foregoing certificate are true of his own personal knowledge.   WILLIAM C. IRVINE.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 27th day of July, A. D. 1875.
[.~EAL.]                                               GEO. R. BALLOU,
Notary Public, Cheyenne County, ~~braska.
Eighth. Statement of ~Vm. Guiterman, of the firm of Kent & (i'niterman.  lle lives in Ch~enne, and yott ca~ see hiut there:
CHEYENNE, W. T., July 27, 1875.
This is to certify that I sold and delivered to J. H. Bosler, for use of the Indian contract, at the old Red Cloud agency on the North Platte River, five hundred and seventyfive head of cattle on the 2b'th day of May, 1875.  These cattle were of No. 1 quality
and in good condition; all three and fi~ur and five years of age, wintered in this Territory one, two, and three winters.  They were all a good quality of beef-cattle, and
could have sold them to the butchers of Cheyenne and Denver for immediate killing.
WM. GUITERMAN,
For Kent 4- Guiterman.
TERRITORY OF WYOMING,
County of Laramte, 88:
On this 27th day of July, A. D. 1875, before me personally appeared William Guiterman, personally known to me to be the identical person who executed the within cer 
34?
tificate, and, being by me duly sworn according to law, made oath that the facts set
forth in the said certificate are true.
Witness my hand and notarial seal.
[SEAL.]                                          L. C. STEVENS,
Notary Public
In connection with this statement, I will say that cattle purchased
in the spring cost a great deal more than cattle do now, and that is the
reason we would not furnish them ~t the contract-price.
Ainth. Statement of C. McCarty:
TATE OF NEBRASKA,
Cheyenne County, 88:
C. McCarty, being first duly sworn, says that for about ten years last past he has
been engaged in the cattle business in Colorado, Western Nebraska, and Wyoming;
that he is familiar with all the brands nsed in Western Nebraska, and is cattleinspector for the district controlled by the Western Nebraska Stock Association; that
in Angust, and at other times in 1874, J. H. Bosler received herds of cattle from one
James Ellison and ~arious other parties; that he, deponent, looked through these
herds for stray cattle, as is customary with cattle-men when herds are going to the
a~euc ies; that said herds were by him carefully examined for the above reason, and
that alt the cattle in said herds so received by J. H. Bosler were of good quality; and
deponent further says that all the cows and steers in said herds were of good class;
and all the cattle received by said Bosler, and examined by him as aforesaid, were, in
his, deponent's, estimation, splendid cattle.
And deponent further says that he saw other large lots of cattle turned over to
range-men by parties who had driven them to this country, and that these lots were
invariably of a poorer class and lower grade thau aiiy turned over to and received by
said J. H. Bosler.
C. McCARTY.
Snbscribed and sworn to before me this 27th day of July, A. D. 1875.
[SEAL.]                                            GEO. R. BAtLOU,
Nota;-y Public, Cheyeaize County, Nebraska.
This is an officer appointed by the governor of Nebraska to inspect
cattle. His business is to inspect cattle, and, if there are any stray cattle,
to get them out.
Tenth. Statement of James Callahan, contractor for furnishing beef at
the Sidney, Nebraska, barracks:
I do certify that I have seen the herds of cattle, or many of them, purchased by J. H
Bosler for the use of the Indian contract of 1S74 and 1875, as they passed on their way
to the Platte River, their place of delivery. I am engaged in the cattle trade, and was
looking through the herds for range-cattle, to see if any were being driven off, and can
testify that these cattle were of good quality and in good condition, full grown, four
years old and upward; would estimate the weight at from nine huudred to eleven hundred pounds. I am a cattle dealer or raiser, and am a good judge of the weight and
quality of cattle, having been engaged in the trade for three years.
JAMES CALLAHAN.
PHILIP MUSHEID.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 30th day of July, A. D. 1875.
[SEAL.]                                           GEO. R. BALLOU,
Notary Public, Cheyenne County, Nebraska.
EThventh. Statement of Dr. S. A. Snow, physician of Red Cloud
~gency:
AUGUST 4, 1875.
This is to certify that I am and have been physician at the Red Cloud agency for
the past fourteen m(~nths, and have been present at the agency scales frequently when
the cattle were deli~ered by J. H. Bosler to Agent Saville.  That the cattle were usually of good qualit~ and in good condition, full grown and of full age, and alway~
weighed on the a~er cy scales. That I was present at the agency on the 14th day of
November, when Prefessor Marsh was here; was pre.~nt at the issue on that day, and
saw the cattle recei`ed that day, and they were all of a good size; it was during a 
348
snow-storm that they wer delivered.  The hair was rough, hut the cattle were large
and in fair condition.  Th~y were weighed by Agent Saville.  This was done publicly;
any one could have taken cown the weights if they had desired to do so.  I am satisfled that there were steers in this lot that would have weighed twelve hundred
pounds. others eight or uin~ bundred. And that I was also present at the issue on the
14th of May, and that thes~ cattle were also weighed on the agency scales; that in
this lot I noticed some yearlings, twenty or thirty in number; saw the Indians and
half-breeds rope some of t;~em and draw them out of the corral, and take many of
them away before this lot of cattle was weighed and received by the agent; that this
was a good lot of cattle, in fair condition, full grown, and of good size.
S.A. SNOW,
Agency Physician.
CAMP RoBLNsoN, NEBR.,
August d, 1875.
I, J. MeB. Stembel, second lieutenant Ninth Infantry, judge-advocate, general courtmartial, certify that S. A. Snow, whose signature is affixed to the within affidavit,
came before me and made oath that the matters stated in said paper are true to the
best of his knowledge and belief.
J.McB. STEMBEL,
Second Lieutenant ~~nth i?fanfry, Judge.Advocate, General Court-Martial.
These are~all the affida~its in regard to cattle.  The following affida?
tits show the size and weight and quality of the bides, and also go to
show the size and quality of the cattle:
I~e(fth. Statement of B. 1'. Walters, post-trader at Red Cloud, predecessor of Mr. Yates:
STATE OF PE~~s~vANIA,
Cumberland County, 88:
Before me, a notary public in and for said county and State, personally appeared B
F. ~~alters, who, being duly sworn according to law, deposes and says that he was one
of the post-traders at the Red Cloud Indian agency from 12th April, 1874, to 12th April,
1S75, during which time he received from the Indians five thousand one hundred and
two bides. These hides averaged in weight, in Omaha and Chicago, "in flint," heads,
tails, and legs off, 24 pounds each, and brought gross, $5.21, and netted ~4.46 each.
That be saw the most of the cattle that these hides were taken from; that they were
a fair average quality of cattle of four-year olds and upward. That he was resent at
~he agency when Professor Marsh visited there, and received a great many oth e hides
of the cattle that Professor Marsh saw issued, and, to the best of his knowledge, there
was not one of these cattle younger than four years old, and that they were all weighed
before they were issued to the Indians.
B. F. WALTERS.
Sworn and subscribed before me this 29th day of June, 1875.
[SEAL.]                                         A. L. SPONSLER,
~otary Pub lie.
Thirteenth. Statement of F. D. Yates, trader at Red Cloud agency,
successor of ~Ir. ~~alters:
RED CLOUD A~~~cv, August 6, 1875.
This is to certify that I am a trader at the Red Cloud agency, aud received and traded
from the Indians, from April 16, 1875, to the 1st day of July, 1875, eighteen hundred
and seventy-seven beef-hides.  These were full size, from full-grown cattle, four years
old and upward, I should judge; they weighed in market on an average a bout 25
pounds," flint-drv hides."  I received the hides from the cattle killed to supply the
troops at Camp Sheridan, for the past year.  These hides were not as large as those I
received from the Indians.  The butcher at Camp Sheridan told me the cattle these
hides were taken from averaged 550 pounds net, or 1,100 pounds gross, in beef.
I have passed through the herds of cattle for the supply of beef at Rnd Cloud and
Whetstone agencies, and personally saw many of the cattle. They were of good quality
and size, four years old and upward, and, from what I know of cattle, would judge
them to weigh a thousand pounds and upward.  Was present at many of t~e issues at
Red Cloud, and found the cattle always good and of full size. I received out of the
issue of May 14, one hundred and sixty hidt~s; they were from good-size, full-grown
cattle. The cattle are always weighed at the Red Cloud agency, when received by
the agent from the contractor.
F. D. YATES. 
349
I would furtter state that I have handled many hides for the last eight years, and
that when dry flint, to weigh 25 pounds, must consequently be froai ull.grown cattle.
F. D. YATES.
Personally appeared before me, Geo. Knox, postniaster at Red Cloud agency, Nebr.
the above F. D. Yates, who, bein~ duly SwOin according to law, declares the above
statement to be true to the best ot his belief.
T~a~iro~v OF WYOMING,                              GEO. KNOX, P. Ar.
County of Laramie, 88:
On this 25th day of August, A. D. 1875, before me, L. C. Stevens, a notary public in
and for said county, in the Territory aforesaid, personally came F. D. Yates, who is
known to me to be the identical person whO is described in and who signed the foregoing certificates, and being by me duly sworn according to law, made oath that the
statements set forth in the said certificates subscribed by him are true.
~Vitness my hand and notarial seal.
[sE~4L.~                                         L. C. STEVENS,
~~tary Public.
Fourteenth. Statement of J. N\~ Dear, post-trader at Red Cloud agency:
RED CLOUD AGENCY, August 4, 1875.
This is to certify that I am a trader, and have been for eighteen months past, at Red
Cloud agency; and that from the 1st day of September, 1~~4, to the 1st day of July,
1875, I received and traded from the Indians 4,545 hides; that these hides came from
full-grown cattle, and ~ere, to the best of my knowledge, fonr years of age and
upward; and that these same hides brought, on an average, in market $5.70 each;
that I received the hides from the cattle killed and furnished to the military post,
Camp Robinson, and that they were not as large as those received from the Indian
cattle. The cattle were always weighed on the agency scales.  I received of the issue
of cattle on the 14th day of May three hundred and one hides; and that my brother
was up to where Lonis Richard was trading; and that he (Louis R.) received
somewhere about twenty hides out of the entire issue.  I was present at the agency
on November 14, 1874, when Professor Marsh was here; did not go to cattle-corral;
did not see the beef issued on that day, but received at least one-half of the hides. I
find that my books show on the 21st of November I shipped one hundred and five
hides, that brought iu market $6.09; and on the 1st of December, three hundred and
seventy~seven hides, which brought $6.~2.  The hides from the issue of November 14
were in those two lots. None but full-grown and large cattle would yield a hide worth
this money.
J.W. DEAR.
CAMP ROBINSON, NEBR., August 5, 1575.
I, J. McB. Stembel, second lieutenant, judge-advocate general court-martial, certif~
that J. 4V. Dear, whose ~gnature is affixed to the within affidavit, came before me and
inade oath that the matter stated in the within paper is true, to the best of his knowledge and belief.
J.McB. STEMBEL,
~econd Lieuteiiant ~~inth hja a try, J. A. (;. C. Ar.
Fijfleenm This is an abstract of the foregoing affidavits in the form
of a statement, signed by myself:
In connection with these aftidavits, I submit the following tabulated; statement o
their contents:
Number of cattle purchased for Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies, which were
classified as follows:
BeCo~wVs~S                                            14,325
3,162
17, 490
Number of cattle delivered on the Paxton contract, as per receipts
given by the agent, now on file in the Interior Department:
For Red Cloud agency                                   9,423
For Spotted Tail agency                                    
16,509
Excess of purchase~ over deliveries                           651 
350
Leaving on hand on the 1st of July, 1S75 6(St bead.  ()f these, 7.~ perished, as we
found their carcasses on the range, aud the balauc~ we~e lost and stolen by tbe
Indians.
You will also notice bere the small percentage of mortality, which would indicate,
taking into consideration the severity of the winter, an exc~edingly strong and healthy
lot of cattle.
These affidavits show the following accounts of hides taken from these cattle and
sold to the traders:
~Ir. B. F. ~Valters, trader at Red Cloud agency, from September 1, 1874, to
April 12, 1875, purchased                                         3, 187
Mr. J. ~~. Dear, trader at Red Cloud agency, from September 1, 1874, to July
1, 1875, purchased.                                               4, 845
F. D. Yates, successor to Mr. N\~alters, purchased, from April 16, 1875, to July
1, l~75.                                                             1,~77
Total..-.-..                                                   9,909
From this deduct the number of cattle delivered at Red Cloud agency 9, 423
And there will be an excess of hides for this year of        -         486
This excess we account for by the bides taken from the cattle stolen, and a probable
error in the estimate of the number received by B. F. ~~alters during the continuance
of the Paxton contract, as you will observe his affidavit covers the entire time he was
in business. from April 12, 1874, to April 12, 1875, and the number of hides purchased
during the entire time was 5,10-2, being an average of 425 per month, which is the
manner in which we arrived at the number purchased by him during ttie Paxton
coutnict.
I will also call your attention in this connection to the following facts: The issue of
May 14 consisted of 456 head.  Mr. Dear's affidavit and books show that be received 301
bides from that issue, a~d Mr. Yates received 160, making a total of 461, and all from
full-grown cattle.  Now, these are the same cattle purchased from Mr. Reddington,
whlch he testifies would average 1,011 pounds, and about which Lieutenant Carpenter
makes a certificate that there were only three head of oxen, and Louis Reshaw that
he purchased 100 yearling hides. Now, the facts are that Louis Reshaw got no hides
out of this issue, and if he received any at all, it was hides taken off calves and yearlings the Indians had been accumulating, as the traders will not purchase theni, they
baviug an established price, and the Indians will not discriminate with them between
a foil-grown hide and a calf-skin.
I will also call your attention to the high respectability and business standing of the
parties making these affidavits.  They are all well-known cattle-dealers and business
men. Two of them are the authorized cattle-inspectors of the State of Nebraska, appointed by the governor; and for the business integrity and standing of all these
gentlemen I refer you to the First National Bank of Omaha, Nebr.; the First National
and Mastin Bank of Kansas City; the banks and bankers of Austin, Tex.; Kountze
Bros., and Don nell, Lawson &` Co., bankers, of New York City.
J.W. BOSLER.
AvGUST 11, 1875.
Sixteenth. Letter from ~Ir. II. Kountze, of the First National Bank,
Omaha, Nebraska, in regard to the business qualifications and integrity
of the persons makiiig the foregoing affidavits:
FIRST NATIONAL BANK,
Oataha, ~~br., July 28,1875.
To whom it may concern:
I take pleasure in stating that we have had business transactions with the followingnamed gentlemen, to wit, S. Mabry, Geo. ~V. Littlefield, and George Sheidly, and
favorably know them for several years, and know James Ellison by reputation.
These gentlemen are largely engaged in tlie Texas cattle-trade, and we think any
statements made by them in regard to their business would be entitled to full credence,
they being the leading and heaviest cattle-dealers that find their way to this market,
and we believe them thorougbly reliable.
Very respectfully,
H.KOUNTZE. 
35~
Set' en te~nth. Letter from J. D. Bevier, late United States Indian
inspector:
GRA~T RAPIDS, Mic~.,
July 31, 1S75.
D~AR Sr~: Your favor of the 27th instant, dated and mailed at Sidney, Nebr., is just
received. You a~k me to forward to you a sworn statement of my inspection of your
cattle last summer.  I am informed that the commission now at the Red Cloud agency
to investigate the charges of Professor ~Iarsh will call on me for my testimony on their
return. N\~hen they do so, I will state that I did inspect your herd on the North Platte
last September, and that I "found them of good size, condition, and quality.~'
It seems to me better that my testimony should be all together, rather than'in detached
portions.
You are at liberty to read or give this letter to the commissioners.
Very respectfully, yours, &c.,
J.D. BE~WR,
Late United States Indian Inspector.
J.H. BoSLER, Esq.
By the CHAIRMA~:
Q. Mr. Bosler, please refer to the letters which indicate tite purchase
of cattle that were issued on the 14th of November, 1S74, and May
14, 1875.
A. The cattle of the 14th of November, 1874, were purchased ill the
summer. They were inspected by Dr. Bevier. That letter does not refer
to the particular purchase of cattle which were issued November,
1874, and May, 1875.  These affidavits refer to cattle purchased for all
our contracts.  Mr. Reddington's and Mr. Irvine's affidavits refer to the
cattle which were delivered on the November, 1874, and May, 1875,
issues.
Q. What did you pay for those cattle you bought from P~eddington?
A. Seventeen dollars for cows, and twenty-five for steers.  I pro-rated
them, making $21 per head.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. We desire to know from you whether Dr. Saville has any interest
of any kind whatever in your purchases of cattle ~
A. None whatever.
Q. Has he ever recetpted to you for cattle which he did not get?
A. No, sir; never.
Q. Has he ever given you a receipt for more pounds of cattle than he
actually received ~
A. No, sir; he never did.
Q. Is there any arrangement between you and him, directly or indirectly, by which he derives any benefit from purchases of beef from yon ~
A. None in the least.  I never saw Dr. Saville froni tlie time he took
charge of the agency until I met him in Washington this spring.
Q. Please state, Mr. Bosler, the contract prices.
A. Two thirty and one-thirtieth, from the 1st of September, 1S74, to
the 1st of July, 1875, for a designated amount at each agency.  The
next contract was at 3 cents per pound for these two agencies, (Red
Cloud and Spotted Tail.)  After the contract was filled which extended
down to the 1st of July, 1875, we made another contract, which began
July 1st, at $2.46~ per hundred, and this is the coiitract under which
we are delivering cattle now.
Q. Have you named all the persons of whom you bou~ht cattle to fill
the P~ed Cloud and Spotted Tail agency contracts ft~r 1S74?
A. Yes, sir; they are all included.
Q. ~~hat did you pay per head to Mabry ~
A. Lighteen dollars for the beeves, and from y~10 10 ~12 for the cows. 
352
I paid Bilison the same prices, and he states the number of cows.  I
paid Little field the same prices, and he also states the number of cows.
To Irvii~e & Lawrence I gave ~20 per head for all.  To Re~ldin~ton I
gave ~~1 on au average, but it came to half and half at $21; but we
averaged it, and gave him.~25 for tlie beeves and $17 for the cows, which
deduction was actually made. K~nt & Guitemann we gave $lS all round,
beeves and cows; and to flurst we gave ~1S all rouiid.  There is one
thing I would like you to satisfy yourselves of, and that is that the contract can be filled fairly and honestly at the prices iiamed.
Q. Now, ~Ir. Bosler, what is your brother's interest iu this contract?
A. lie has no interest whatever; he never had any; it has always
been a question of liberality with myself.
Q. What had Foreman to do when he made this contract; that is,
when he made the bid ~
A. Nothing at all.
Q. Was it understood between him and you that if he got the contract
there was to be some interest between you ~
A. Well, he bid to make money on it.
Q. N\~hat was paid him to assign the contract ~
A. lie had an interest.
Q. flow much of an interest?
A. I would not like to answer that question.
Q. Are your cattle watered within eight miles of this agency ~
A. ~~e pass a small stream coming up from the camp.
(~.So far as you know, can your cattle get water within eight miles
of this agency~
A. No, sir, they cannot; they are driven into the corral without being
watered, and in the winter-time they cannot get water, this strearn
being frozen.
By Mr. FALTLKNER:
Q. liave you ever had any difficulty with the Government in regard
to your contracts?  liave you had any such controversy or difficulties
with the Government as would render you liable to be excluded as a
regular beef-bidder ~
A. None whatever. That is a statement made by Mr. Wil]iam Welsh,
of Philadelphia, which was occasioned by a personal controversy which
we had.  lie is a very bitter and vindictive enemy of mine, and he
refers to the clanse in the advertisement, "that no contract should be
assigned or sublet without the written consent of the Secretary of the
Interior.~'  That clause has been in the advertisement for three years,
and two out of those three I have been a contractor. I have been a bidder always, aiid when I was the lowest bidder I was awarded the contract.  I am the lowest bidder at two places this year.  I made the
lowest bid for Fort Bert hold, and have been awarded the coi~tracts by
the Board of Indian Commissioners.  The matter was never thought of
by tl~e parties awarding the contract, but it has been paraded by
Mr. Welsh in his letters.  lie was formerly the president of the Board
of Indian Commissioners.
By Mr. liARRIS:
Q. What other persons besides you and Paxton have direct, possible,
or contingent profits in that contract of 1S74?
`A. Mr. A. II. Wilder, of Saint Paul, Miun., Mr. J. T. Baldwin, of
Council Bluffs, Iowa, and Mr. D. W. ~ Wheeler, of New York.  These
are the only parties. 
353
Q. lias ai~y money or other eonsiderjtion t)CCIl p'iid or pro~nised to
any ~)erson in eoi~sideration of yonr obtiiiiiiig tiie c'oiitract
~. Never a cent  and ftirther, I never obt;iiiie~l a eoi~tr~ct ~v1tieIi ~~as
i~ot let to the lo~vest bidder.  I have giveil tlie II~~(I~C5 ~)[`~}I tlie l)'~rtie5
b~ivin~ any interest i10 this contract.
(;~. Ifa~ ~1r. John Delano any iiiter~st whatever iii it
~. lIe 1115 not.
Ly;\[r. ATllERTON:
(~.~Vas this Foreman contract transferred t() yOtl or to ~Ir. I~~xton?
~. Ir wa~ transferred to ~Ir. i?axton by tiie ai)i)r)v~l of tiie Departn~eiit, aiid tiie reason the contract was a~si~ned t() ~fr. I~axton was because there was a heavy boiid to be givell aiid I waiited to reserve
myself for a bonds~nan.  If it had not been f~r th~it, I wonld have had
tiie contract in ~` self.  The sureties are Joseph aij~l J. ~V. 1~~osler.  That
wa~ doiie ill order to give the bond onrselves, as it reqnired a very heavy
boiid-~l5(?,OOO.  I pnt the money into this coiltract, every dollar of it.
I cannot say exactly that I pnt it in  I furiiislied it, but each one of
these parties iiiterested were to furnish iiioiiey iii proportioii to their
interest.  I proposed to furnish the moiley at 10 per cent. interest, which
they accepte(l.  Nobody but myself has a dollar iii tlie contract, e~cept
in tiie way of paying interest to ine.  It is a loan to tlie company.  The
profits are divided.  ~Iy brother gets whatever I ~~~ hi ill.  ~Iy object
in the matter is to get the interest on my moiiey.
[At this point the exaiiiiiiation becan~e in ore conversatio~ial, ~Ir. J.
llerman Rosier, wlio was present, also answering questions of the coinmissioiiers about matters connected with the cattle which came under
liis peisonal observation or within his personal kiiowledge.  ~fr. J. II.
Bosler was examined informally as follows:]
Q. You sl)oke of seveiity-three cattle being lost last winter on the
plains.
A. That was during those severe storms.  We found the carcasses 9f
seventy-three which we knew bad been lost.  We were out about six
hundred between December 1 and ~Iarch 1.  Very few cattle perished
niitil the storms of January and February.  The cattle were in a very
fine condition in January and February.  ~Ve must have had at least
five thousand, and perbaps more, from which those cattle were lost.  It
was the cold weather that caused them to get lost, and they were not
in a thriviiig condition.  Somefimes cattle fret from one cause or another.  One of those had broken a limb or had knocked off a horn, and of
course they could not get through the bad spell of weather.
Q. \Vhat would be the effect upon the rest of the herd of such a state
of weather as would cause seventy-three to l)erisli?
A. The cattle, during January and February, were thriving, doing
very well indeed.  They did not lose any flesh duriii the mouth of Jannary  they lilay have lost during the nioiith of Fe~~ruary.  There is
i~leiity of gras~ during the winter, protected by tlie 5i1()'v~ for the CIttle
to graze oil.  The snow falls always with a heavy wiiid, aiid it is blown
off iii to the low country.  If it would lie on a level the cattle could not
li~~e at all.
~Vas there any irreg'~arity on accoiiiit of storms in the delivery of
cattle here last winter
~.I guess there was.  I delivered cattle durii~g tlie latter j~art of
December to supply the agei0cy for Jai~uary.  Iii tile ijiiddle of Jin
nary Saville issued the ~attle for tlie balaiice of tlie iiloiitli, aiid or~lcred
ine to have the cattle h~re by tlie first of Fcbru~iry.  I seiir that order
~~~3 I F 
354
over to the herder aiid the best inen in the herd started three times
~~ith these cattle iid they iiivaribly got back fron~ lii in iiito the herd,
aiid I don't thiiik lie got here until about the 9th or 10th ~r February.
~Vhen they came i.i I w'~s preseiit. There were seven or eight hundred.
The entire lot was issneil to tlie Indians, and thQy had their issue from
the 1st of February.  There were seven hundred ~`iiid one cattle.
Q. ~Yhat was the c~~ndition of those cattle when they were issued?
~. They were in fair coiidition.  They were a fair lot of cattle; they
were l'~rgC cattle.  ~~e always keep back our best cattle for wiiiter.  ~Ye
take out all cattle that are not doing well and keel) the strongest cattle,
and let then~ go tliiough the winter.  ~Ve have ~`Il'vays fouiid this by
experience: and a goo~i, strong, healthy animal, put on good pasture,
will go through tlie wiiiter well.
Q. You have 110 lifliculty, tl~eu, iii sorting theni out into separate
herds?
~. ~Ve never sort theiii out.  Our way in brii~~in~ in cattle for an
Js~ue, i~ to cut off a bunch.  These cattle we have ilow on the range
will be better a niouth hence; therefore these cattle will be best for the
winter.  (fattle th;it we will receive now of course are not as fleshy as
th~ise we have.
(? So you have been leliveriiig cattle that you would have preferred
to 1101(1 011 until fall?
k. Yes, sir; biit we hail no other.
~? Could you iiot take your different herds and make 111) a herd thit
will keel) over the wiiiter?
A. No, sir; we iiever pick froiii tlie eiitire herd.
(~. ~~s tar as you caii do so, do you not desire to deliver (~0W5 before
51i1'j 11
A. Yes, ~ir.  ~Vc;iiiii to deliver cows before they drop their calves-ili
tlie tall aii~l ~luriIig the sunimer.
~t~ I sn~)pose cows that are with calves are iiot good beef.
A. Tlie Iiidi;~iis prefer them.  Cows briii~ just as much in n~arket as
bet'~'cs.  In oi~r whole colitract, we never bought yearliiigs.  There are
a few that will ii'itiirally run on with tlie cows, aiid it is almost jinpos~ilile to get them`1 way.  The parties that delivered the in to us failed to
oct tlieiii`i'v~~ an~l they were brought up with our cattle, but are not
iii tlie coiitr;ict.  I did iiot pay for them, and did not count them.  NVe
use tlieiii iii ("1 lull, or`give theni to the Indians, as they inay come aloiig.
To tlie 1ie~t ot' lily kii~~wledge, we did not have to exceed thirty yearlings
iii our ~`iitire lot, which we Iiurcliased from those Texas nien.  I have 110
dufliiite kiiowle~l(We oli   at
this snbject   all.  ~Ve liought tlie Reddingtou
(`-itt It' tili  year iii which thei'e were fifty-eight yearliiigs; but tltose
I 1)~1iil iiothiii g foi-, aiiil ~Ir. I)~~~4iIigto1) lias sworn that lie received
iiotliiii~ for theiii.  These caine over here, (`111(1 the majority of theiii
werel~iiletl by the In4i;iiis lietoi'e they got iitto tliecorral.  Iii regard to
tlii se ye'ii-liiigs, tiiei-e is iiever aiiy liccessity for them, becai~se we were
jl~~`i\ 5 alie;i~l ot tlie;i\ erage.  I~y all arrangement with tlie Delliltinelit
~~e i~iced 111)011 in t~~iJge.  I think it was 1, ()50 for the last six uioiitlis
aiitl ~50 for the first.  At`iliy rate, we agreed`11)011 925 for the year.
-(~. ~~ hat would y ()~1 uiitlerst-iiid could be includetl in such an average
wbat kiii(I of cattle
A. Anything that wis iiier~liaiitable beef. as the contract did not
Iiientii)ii ~n~ liJi tical~ii a(~es  Until witliiii tlie l~~t t~~o ~ e~rs tlie contract cilled for stecis, lint siiice that time it has been inerchatitable
beef.  This ye;ir it is inerchaiit'ible Texas cattle, to average not less
thin S50 i ouiids. 
355
Q.N\~hat do cattle men ordinarily understand by merchantable cattle~
A.Cattle that are healthy and fit for beef.  Of conrse~tliey would
not consider it anything that is poor or in unhealthy condition.
Q.~Vonld you consider a steer in good, healthy condition that would
I~ot weigh over 600 pounds?
~.Yes, sir; we don't agree that every steer shall weigh 1,f)OO pounds,
but that the average of the herd will be that.
Q.S~ippose you make a contract with tlie C~overiiment to furnish
5,4)0,000 pounds of beef, without any specificatioii iii tiie coiitract as to
any size the beeves may be, how would there be the most iiioney in the
contract to you, in furnishing large or small cattle?
A.Large cattle, of conrse.  The mOSt money would be in fnriiisliing
cows, but we canuot do it, because we cannot buy them, and we cannot
use them iii the winter time.  But we can use from one-quarter to onefifth cows in a contract to advaiitage, aiid it is the iiiost l~rofitable. ~Ve
(`an oiily get the number of cows that come with a herd,`iiid our custon~
is to purchase a herd if it suits u-~.  There was biit orie stampede, and
that was last flill, aii&l but two that I have ever liear~l of in the country.
I have bee ii here three years, and there ha~ beei~ but two in that time.
The other one was wiiiter before last.  It was occisiOlied by a fo~
getting iuto the herd at night.  This was a &~overiiniei~t herd, wtiicli had
been driven iii that day.  They were all gather (I up ag;iiil excel)t about
thirty-three.  They were trated across ~Yliite P~iver.  They di(l i~ot go
into our herd.  The stampede occurre~l iii the evellilig  They liad issued
the cattle, just as you have seeii to-day, and were leaiiiiig the herd up
the creek, and the cattle were turiied out heic iii tlie evenilig, and we
got our receipt.  And wlieii they had got through issuing, oli tlie ~`l~
going up, they lost some of their cattle.  They di(l not kn~~w it until the
next evening, when the lier~ler coiiiite~l tlie cittle aiid found he was
out sonie, and the agent seiit mcii oilt ti) liiiiit tlieiii.  They trailed then'
to the Platte.  O~ir herd was oli tlie Plitte.  Th~~re were none of our men
that saw them come in.  The qilesti(in was to fiiid out lio\v they came
there. ~`~e went into the' herd aiiil fouiiil tlie;ii ~~{ivered with duiig, which
sl~owed that they had run.  Thcy niust have goiie all over the couiitry.
~N~e returned one hundred and fifly altogether.  I doii't know liow many
were lost.  ~Ve returned an cilual iininber, sulil~(i~~d to be of equal
weight. N\~e did not pretend to retiirii tlie ide!iticil ~~ittle.
(~. Did the agelit make ally iie'v pnrcli;ises to su~i~ily the loss by
stampede?
A.No, sir.  rIe has 110 power t~) do so.  Soinetiiiies cattle will drol)
out and we can't firid theiii, aii~l. of c()uise,`v( tliiiik tlie li1d~('iii5 got
them. The Indians rar~ly tikO`iny ~iut of our lioril  they are Jirctty
fair iii th;tt resliect.  Some of ~liciii killi~il 501110 c;i ttle l~ist fill wlieii tliev
retiiriieil from hunting oil tlie I'~ejiubli~<iii  they wcre vury (li~stiti1tc
tlie agent gave them orilor~ ibr c~tt1e as they OltilO tlir~~u~li, aiiil I doii't
kiio'v ~ hat they wonlil liav e done w itliout tlic ni.iiid`V e gave tlie ill
s(iiiie cattle.  You caiinot find tori tlioii~iiiil l;iliiiiiii  11001)10 aiiywlierc
" lio are better fed than the Iiidiaiis lii~ro it tlii~;i~oi.'c.  It is ab~urd
fir anybody to say otherwise.  I (Il) not kiiow if aiiy siifioi'iii~ l;ist
" liter among tlie Iiidians.  ~ir. (~ibb~iiis wis horo.  I)r. S;iville was
tt~ont (1uriii g January aiiil lebruary.  ~Ir. ~~`ib\ions ro iii<'ii' ked to iil~
tliit every Iiidian that was 51i()i't of lirovisloils;iiiil o;iiiie licic g()t ovely
tliiiig lie asked for.  I tiiiiik ltoil Di~g woiit Ill) ti) tlio iiiilit~'iry o;iiii~i hid
iii<iilo soiiie coml)laints.  ~Ir. (jibboris give every 111)11(1 ii tli;it OliflO here
si)!iie liiirk or whatever he conlil.  I iave been here three years.  I
tliiiik there are about twelve thonsaiiil Iriiliaiis fed h~-re; that would be 
u5C
fl~y ~j~~}~ii~e~~t  I 1i'~ve never eoiinte~I tIieti~ (1I)~~ oii1~' ~~~ t1i~t i~un~ber
fioin ~vIi<'it I bC(1I'.  Tlie nvcrige of tite entt}e 4~ livereti to~dny (~Nngnst
11)~as 1~()5O 1~ouiids.
~~As~IINGTON, D. (?.
~IO)1(((t~I, N~j)t()~~be) i:~, 1S77).
Present  II()I). T~Io?IAs C. FLETcllLR, eliair:rnii: lion. L'. N\~. liArRIS, lioii. CllARLLs J. FAi?LNNL'R i?rof. ~I~OR~E ~\~. ~TllLRTON, aiid
Hoii. TIMc)TI~Y (~. li~~-E.
Profes~or ThfARSll was also 1)reseiit.
~Ir. J. ~~~. ~OSLLR wns recalle~l.
ThIr. liAPRIS. I b~~iieve before we eaiiie to ~Vashiiigton we requested
~fr. Bosler to give us a statement of tlie cattle t)urclinsed to liii the contiacts that lie has been carrying ont foi the original contractors ai~~I
be (xpICS5Cd a williiigness to pioduce his books or make a transcnpt
fron~ tlieni,`~iid there his exainiiiatioi) was snsi)eiided; aiid while we
wish to`isk hiiu some questiolis oil that subject, I think we have by no
~neans conipleted his examination.
~Ir. ~TlliSi'TON. ~Ir. ~osler, h~i ve you the card I give you oil whicli
I wrote a ineniorandum of the infoi-niatioii that we wanted?
~Ir. 1))~SL~R. Yes, sir; here it is.  [liaiidiiig card.1
~Ir. ATllLRToN, {reading.] "~Vill ~Ir. Bosler please furiiisli the cominiSsiOli a lbll and exact transcript of liis books, showing every transactioii iii brief betweci himself and tl)e i~ed Clond and Spotted Tail aaeu
cies for the years 1S73, 1~74, and JS75 ~
By the CllAIRMAN:
Question.? will ask ~Ir. Bosler if he liashis books here showingthe liurchases and delivery of beef at P~ed Cloud aiid Spotted Tail agencies
during the years 1873,`74, and`75, or a statement made Irom his books ~
Aiiswer. I am having a statement made out-it is not quite completed
yet-of tlie eiitire ~lishursements and receipts, which I will hand to the
conimi~sionei~s for their l)rivate use and information.  It is a transcript
froiii my books, and is purely a business p;iper, and it woul(I Si in ply be
giving the benefit t)f my experience in the bnsiness to outside parties
if tlie docunient should be made matter of tlie public i-ecord.  But I
will give it to you for your information, to assist you in your inquiries
on the subject.  I ii ave no objection to giving you publicly the geiieral
result of the traiisactioiis, but as to making all my biisiiiess niatters, all
my receipts aii~l expenditures, opeii to the public, you see exactly where
it places ine.  It 11 its everybody else who might happen to or waiit to
come into coililictitloil with me in possession of the iiiforiiiatioii aii~l cxperielice I havc sl)eiit fifteen years iii acquiriiig, iiainely tiie exact cost
of keepiii g these cattle, aiid tlie way in which they can be kej)t ~to the
best a~Iv~iiitage at the least expense, &c.  I repeat, I ha~ e no objection
to giving it to tlie commission for their private ii?fori.natioii biit you
will see at olice the di~ad~ auta~e ~t " liich its publication would lilace
me.  I am liaviiig it iiia~le out-a coiiii)lete statement of alt tlie iteiiisand will haiid it ~ on ~~heii fiiiished.  It is a pretty long accouiit.
By ~Ir. HApr'1S:
Q. Suppose, ~Ir. BOsler you go on aiid give us such inforiu~itioii as
we caii l)laee upoii the record and then we caii go iii to those private
matters afterward.
A. I have tlie names of every party from  wlioiii tlie ~~attle wei~e purchased, the number of head, the price t)aid for tlit~iii tier 1i~~id, ai~d tiie 
357
wliolu aInount of Honey paid, tlie expelises of all kinds, including the
(-O.~t of herdiiig, and the names of the herders  in ftct, a comI)lere transcii;)t {roiii niy books; and all that I will giv~ you for your private information.
~? Is here ai~y reason why yon shonld not ~ive i~s tlle H(~tflC of every
I~crsoI1 fl'oiii whom -you puicliased cattle whieli were delivered to tl~ese
gc n~ics, the Lumber of head yon purchased fiom those persoiis, the
dates of j)urcliase, and the pric~ you paid for them?
~. Not a I)artiu-le.  But that, recollect, is for your P~i'r~te information.
I lJ('iHj you 11O~ ~n reply to your req~iest made some time ngo an ~bstract
froiii iisv book.~, showing the amonilts of beef delivered under the J. K.
iO~C11I11I contract of 1S74-'7u to the several agencies:
6 head....61,500     YANKToN AGENCY.        -      Avernge.
Q)'ct.    1.  6()head....59,~~0 $4,291 27                        1,025
996+
15.    O5head....65,260                                     1, 00i
:11.     &5head....7~,005     3,565 70                        917~i-.
Nov. 10..~7 head....77, 00)                                - -. -
01. 7u0head...615,650     14,162 00                             
I~7~
~Iay  1.  O3head....64,000   1,472 44                   —..  1,045b~
1,120      1,021,20      2:%491 41
Gene —al average, 911 ~?i~~
1S74.                  UPPEn.~LJS.~O~Ei (f:E()~v CREJ:k~ept. 15. 300 head     313,500             $7, 211 55           1, 045
(~ct. 17. 300 head     279,000             0,417.`~l              9:0
Nov.   i~.295 head     274,350             6                   ~~`-,\t 5
1~77s.
Dec. -&, 770head           9~~0o         1,774 40                  -
Jnue IS  270head.    271,350...          6,241 95                    1,005
1, ~.)~5        1, 737, 000         39, 950 7:
(~euei'.s} averslge, S97{~3~
174                          STANJ)lNG Ro('I A(;LN~-~
-st.`.1-   2' head         5.?~.920.~12,21-                1,021
cr.:;j~      head.      511,6:1            j~ 7(7 55.           1,0(9
1i;157;}}.
1S75.                                      j.) 44
Jazi  11    520head         495,040.....~~~~ lt,3S7 57               952
D.      i. 1.21 head       97S,11S.
2,49:)                 ((55
.~i.ircis 15  501 head... —.542,457.. - - 12,475 65... -                 
A~r;.i  -5' ~1.{)o? ~hi{.a~~d -     164,600?                 59                    
~  ((74
`i.  56u hjad~.     111,132 ~          6,342
12, 6~5 (;:                     
`.41
4,911,630         11-'
dvsr..ige 974S~(~f,9~3 3 
35;3
CJIEYENNE RIVER AGENCY.
Average.
1674.
Sept.  17,  302 bead......3c?9,456    $7,118 52                   
Oct.  17.  317 bead      325,55'.)           7,4894                   
Nov.  17.  322 head:129,46           7,577 44            1,()2:3
F1,0()0
Dec.     1.  300 bead   30(),0'I0~`1,019
17.  483 head      492,177                                )
1875                                     35,179 90             1
Jan.    1.  722 bead       7,1623                                ~1,021
~Iarcb 16.  551 head      552,653          12,712  6                   
April  22.  514 lead      515.026          11,847 36             1,()02
~1ay  2:3.  448 head      447,104          10,264 88                996
3,959          4, 006, 545       92, 209 90
General average, 1, 0l2};~$.
.~POTTED TAIL AGENCY.
1874.
Sept. 11.   572 bead      584,012    $13,434      22              1,021
Oct.   3.   82:3 head     862,504     19,640      47              1,048
Nov.  21.   597 head       61Q134    14,0:35      12              1,022
Dec.   7.   497 head      477,120     10,975      35                96)
1875.
Jan.   5.   447 bead      433,590            9,97402                970
Feh.  17.   803 head    811,8:3:3     18,674      86              1,011
March  6.   575 bead    595,800       13,705      38           1, 03~'?
April  5.   558 bead       50,746    12,6:38      99                987
26.   497 head      487,060     11,265      57                980
May   22.   366 bead     349,3:30     10,479      90                905
June   1.   199 head     1 8u,294        16~~6    62                906
376 bead      372,240,od                        990
20.   528 head      518,021                               ~   961~2
28.   529 head      518,102     31,083      69           ~   979~39~
7,387          7,350,786         182,683 59
General aver age, 995A~.?~-.
RED CLOUD AGENCY.
1874.
ept.   1. 534 head.... 554,772....   $12,761  61                      
15. 300 bead.... 311,64:3....    7,166  63.                      
Oct.    1. 663 head.... 691,509....?                              1,043
20. 758 bead.... 7H3,672....    50,760  67                  1, 033~)$
Nov.   14. 701 head.... 731,465                                    j,0433.~
Dec.    3. 597 bead.... 621,447....    14,295  35                  1,040~C
1675.
Jan.    1. 641 bead.... 668,578....    15,379  52                  1,043AK%
Feb.    1.  437 head.... 451,203.... ~ 21,561  42                 ~ 1,032~-~'
17.  467 bead.... 486,114.... ~                            ~
March   1.   96 head....  99,303....     2, 284 30..               1, 034#r
25.  539 head       ~5,210....~  34,328 13                 ~
April   1.  563 head.... 569,061.... ~                            ~ 1,010 A
21.  584 head.... 585,115....    17,553 45                      
1May   14.  608 bead.... 596,021....?                            ~  980+~}       29.  371 head.... 361,927.... ~  28,738 44                 ~   975+2
June   14.  598 head.... 600,960.... ~  44,697 69                      
25.  946~head.... 888,963....                                   jdj7~
9,423         9,576,96:3      249,529 41
General aVerage, 1, 61' ~~2~~2~  
~6O
~~~1' 1~~t(II1C'~! t&'~k( t1i~ (4[(lIld liver ~~QflC~  tile r&eeil)ts ~ivCfl at t1)('~t
<`lie (~ tQ{~ tlie l<~~t (1;~V of e<'~e1i u~oiitIi <`ill t1)U()ll~'Ii tlie ~`e<'ir.  ~~~e
(:OUi(~ i)~VC1' ~ ci 1~nt ()IlC i'ccei~~t a ~iionth <`111(1 <`~t tiie eii~1 of the ii~ont1t
ilie <`~~(<l)t woi'I~1 n~~ke <(} ~&<ttJeiiie!it for tiie`v11{)}C ~`in~ouiit of cattle 4eiiver~'~I tltirii~g tite iiioiitli.`<~iiil ~iV( One reccil)t lor <`ill. ~iiioii tlit recor~ls
of the Dei)ar siiieiit yoa ~vil1 tilIll a great iiiaii~ rCeeiI)t~ (~f that kind,
which ore i~ot doted uii ilie day of the delivery of tlie cattle.
(~. ~~~hat I wish to <`~sk you ~~r. Bosler is this: 1)o your bools sho~v
tlie tiii~e of tlie OltIlOl dclivcrv of the cattle, ~~i' lo they iliercly show the
time when you got rcccil)ts
A.  lust tiie (late of tlie receipt  tlie oiily iccord I keep (-(f it on my
books is tlie date of the receipt and the time it is tl'<'liiS!iiitte(l to tlie Dcpartul en t.
~t~ It is tlie question of t]ie ~lclivery of cattle iii ()cto1~er, lS7~, that
was the sub~ject of coiisiderable inquiry on Saturd<'iy, ai0d you were
asked whether certaiii deliveries set forth as liaviiig taken place there
at that time were in point of fact delivere~l
A.  Theic is 1)0 question about that.  There is no questioil l)Ut that
every liea~t of cattle receipted for at those ageilcies wJs leliver~<~l, but
whether they were delivere~l on tlie days tbat the receipts would indicate I COi0i)0t say; that would probably be a matter of doubt ill some
eases, as I ii ave explai~ed.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.  ~N~e ii ave tile statement of Dr. Saville<s books, wb icli we coi)ied il~
full, an~1 we have lils testin~ony explaiiatory of tlie st;inipede which occurred in 0ctober, aiid we have the statenieiit of ~Ir. ~Valker, who afterwards iiivcstigate~1 that matter, aiid that was tlie reasoii wliy we wished
to recur to tlie question of tlie actual iiumber lelivere~1 iii IS7~.  You
sai~l you did not remember that the stateiiieiit for l~73 wis iiicluded in
the request we made of you.  I~et 110e rea~l thc' memorandum to yoii
<igain: " ~~~ill ~\Ir. Bosler i)lease furiiish the coniniissioii a- full 1111(1 exact
traiiscript of IliS books, slio'viiig every tralisaction iii beef betweeii liimself and the le~1 Cloud 011(1 Siiotted T;iil a(reiicies for tlie years 1S73,
1874,and l~74?   It was with reference to that s}~ecial poiiit that we
went l)ack to that date.
A.  I overlooke~1 that.  I could very cisily ive you tho~e fi'~ures it I
bad the books here.  That ~insiiiess is all scttle~l n I~ aiid distiosed of
and there would l~e no trouble in givillgyon lie iuforjnatioii.
Py tlie (Dll~~p<MAN:
Q.  ~N ill you ii~<'ike a stateinelit Co' ei'iiig that tiiiie
A.  Do yoii iiicaii that i)artieular due ~`~lieii tlie st<'iml~c(ie ~cciii'i'ed or
the whole year?
Q.  (?ovei-iiig the iiuinber of cattle purchase~1 011(1 delivered to those
two agencies in tlie year 1 s7;3?
& Yes, sir: I will see that you have tlie st<'iteineiit f~~r your l)rivate
information.  All I can give you is the nuiiibe r ot cattle de livere~l anti
their weights. 01)11 tlie ll<'ltC of the rc(<eil)ts; I iiiiglit hot lie alile to give
you tlie da\ 5 on N\ hicli t1ie~`~ ci e {leii~ ci ed.  ThI~ brother k(<t(t <1 1 ongji
<~-< of th~ ilat~  of leli~ ei~ but 1 (10 hot tliiiik lie liad Itis
iiieinor<'iii~la-books for that ye;lr, but I guess lie liad a rcc~ir(l i~f tlie tiates
of each dclivci~ this year.  The only a~<count I keep is the~late of the
recci pt 5.
~Ir. ATNEnTON. Yi~nr brother has bee ii keeping a little niore complete
record this year than before. 
361
By Mr. llARRIS:
(? Mr. Bosler, can you ~ive us inforn~atio'i of the ii~ii~~}~er of head of
cattle you purchased on the contiact of 1~7~ which were &~eIivei~d to
the two agei~eies we are iuvestigatiiig?
A. Yes sir.
~? (Waii y()u give us the prices paid for those C(~ttlC
~. Yes sir.
Q. Aiid tiie aiiiounts you received fioni the (~overiiincnt.
~. Yes, sir; and the amount of I~roflt.
~? It may appear that we are seekiiig to lc'iru tl)e ainouiit of your
pr~~fit  bitt that is ei~tirely an ii~cideiital question.  I)ei.~oii~lly, I care
notliiiig about tlie proilt.  The question is whether the contract was
hoiiestly and fi~ithfully executed  we have i~otliiug to do with any other
questioli  but we must know the iiuii~ber of cattle you purchased, aiid
flom whom  you purchased then~, and the tiumber you delivered at the
a~encie~, so that we may be al~le to coiitradict you if you do not state
it correctly, and if you do state it correctly, wl~y, of cotirse, it will go
to your credit in this investigatioii.         -
k All the cattle for the 1~ed Clou~l aiid ~Vlietstoiie a~eiicies are
under one n~anagemeiit. and uty brother attetids t() tlietii.  I could not
give you a division of the number purchased for ea~~h ageilcy because
they are all taken from a general herd.  I could iiot do it except by estimate. Tiie ~fissouri 1~~iver ~~encies are ui~der tlte iii~mediate n0anagen~ent of Mr. Paxton.  I could not ~ive you tlie details of thit.
Q. You received receipts from the ~Vltetstoi~e agei~cy?
A. Yes, sir; but we kept the herd all together  tl~e cattle are dclivered to both agencies from tite stitie herds, aiid tI)C s;tine herders and
nien deliver the cattle at both l)l(tCC5.
By Mr. ATllLRTON:
Q. Your receipts will show s~iecih'cally the del~~e'.ies to each agency?
A. Yes, sir; there is no tronble about that.
By Mr. llARRIS:
(~.You buy cattle enou~li for those two ageiicies,`tn(1 l)Iit them all
tog~ther on the North 1~latte 1~iver, south of those agel0cies
A. No, sir; we buy cattle for tlic etitire contract, (`t1i(l we divi~1e tliei)~
in that way.  Some go to tlie ~Iissouri ~iver, soitie to tlie North Platte.
(~.Do you know how many you }~laced oil tlie North Platte ~
A. Certainly.
~? And out of that you sii~~ply a siiialler herd ()ii tlie Niobiara, froiti
" Itich you deliver directly to the`i~Ciic~C5
~.Yes, sir.
(~. In the distribution of cattle for tlie sul)l)l~ of se~eral Ifelleies, do
yoii distribute promiscuously froiii your eli tire 5tO(~&. or (to you deliver
oil kind of cattle at oiie l)lace and;iiiotliei kiil(1 (`it aiiother
& No  \~~e do itot discriiniiiate (`it all.  There is ~eii(~r;illy some strife
at cad l~lace to obtain the l)est Cittle but there 15 11~) divisioti of tite
li~~r{l.
~? That is, you buy droves of Texas cattle`(iii(1 Ii ave tlieni ill ~riveii
to otie l~Iace?
Tlie inan from whom I l)uy' tlieiii deliver t lieu  1 licie 1)11 tlte:\Iissoil ii J~ivci', or oii the Platte, wlieri'ver they are orilere~~. ~)~it (`15 a eneril tliiiig, there is 110 divisioii of tlie lier~l.
(~. T li;it is to say, w hen N on t)iiy a tieril, all tIlit lieril is di'iveii to
Olie )l;Ice either t() tlic Thlissouri I~iver or the 1~l'itte ~o tli<'it there is ilo
divisi~iii i)t' them? 
362
A. As a getieral thing, nnless sonie ~eie needed to supply a~i iitiinediate demaiid it one of the agencies.
By Mr. MARSll:
Q. llas there beeii no such ~iivision`vitlijil the last two years?
A. As a general thing, I tliiii~ there h~is not; btit there may Ii ave
been.  I myself do iiot attend to that p~rt of the business; aii~l, of
course I could not state I)ositively of iny owli knowledge.
Q. How can we ~et that definite information?
A. You can Oct it froiii my brother, or floin Mr. Paxton, but there is
really iio necessity for it.  Those herds are ~cncrally made til) 1,50t) to
2,000 iii a herd, and taken to olie place.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Is there any division of theiii after they reach the North Platte
A. No sir.
Q. That is, if you buy a herd and scud it to tlie North Platte`10 liortion of that herd is ever draw~i away to snpply 1 lie ~Iisst~iiri ageIlcy
A. No, sir.
By ~Ir. MAR Sll:
Q. Do you know of any herd having been divideil after tlie purchase
part going to tlie ~Iissouri ftiver and part to the Platte. withiii tlie last
two years ~
A. \Yell, I have not definite information upon that subject.  You will
have to get it from my brother.
Q. You stated it was ilsually the other way, that they were not divided; but I want to know if yon are aware of any I)articnlar instaiice
wherein a henl was divided; whether you could say that some oiie particular herd bad been divided ~
A. I never have been present at the delivery of any particular herd
on the Platte.  I have been at the Missouri River.
Q. The poilit of the inquiry is, if you purchase a large herd of cattle
and pay a certain price, and have the receil)ts to show what you paid
for them, if that herd is divided, part goiiig to the Missouri River and
l)art to the Platte, theii it is important to know bow the division took
place-whether it was really divided and a better class of cattle went
to one place than to another
A. I gave the commissioners a statement here of the amount of cattIe ~lelivered on the Platte, and exactly what herds they were taken
from.  I have iiot detailed inforniation to answer you fully but I gave
them a statement at the agency that would effectually cover that matter.
By ~Ir. HARRIs:
Q. The questioii the Professor puts to you is, whether you have ally
information of any herd beiiig so divided that one kind of cattle went
to one place and another kiri~l to another place out of the same her~l.
A. [To Professor MARsll.  Tlie point you were tryiiig to get at is.
whether better cattle were seiit to olie place tliaii to another, is it ~
By -Mr. ~IAR5ll:
Q. I put the question pretty cleirly.
A. I gave you my aiiswer, tliit I have hot inforiuatioii e!iougli oil
that subject to state it exactly.  I g;ive you iny geiieral impression
about it.
Q. Then I asked you if you kiiew of any single herd that had been
divided. 
d~63
A. No; I do not.
Q. Do you know that any single h~rd lias not bee~i divided ~
A No  I do not.
Q. Single herds might have been divided and yoii iiot know it?
A. Certainly; they might have be cii, biit there would be no object in
it.  I wish to answer all these questions by s('0~'~11~ tli('it loly brother has
char~e of that port of the business oti tlie I~latte, (tild tlio~e initters are
~~~holly under itis charge.
By ~ir. llARRIS:
Q. Have you any informatiol floin lijito, or from 1ii~ other source, that
any such thing happened at tiny tiiiie?
No; I have toot.
(~.Have you stated in your foriiier exaiiiintitioii what volt ~`0~d for the
cattle in 1873, J874, and 1875 ~
A. Yes, sir; I stated about it as I told you. I will give you the exact
l)rice for every purchase.  The general price W(~~ I thiiik, iii tlie neighborhood of from $11 to $11.50 for cows, and ~17 to ~I8 for steers, during
last year; and this year $12 to ~~2O for most of tlieuo.  There were some
few cattle bought of ~Iabry and Millet that we I)aid.~i2 for. ~Ve bought
some beeves for $18, but no cows tbr less thaii $~2.  Those are the only
two classes of cattle we bought.
Q. ~Vhen were those cattle bouoht? ~Vheu did you pay F~ir tlie cattle
bought to fill the contract of 1873-'4?
A. Jinmediately after the contract was let.  I paid Up to tb( last lot
of cattle purchased when the commission was out there.
Q. I mean the year 187~'5.
A. The contract of 187~'5 has just been wound up.
Q. ~Vhen (lid you begin to buy your cattle for that contract ~
A. ~Ve commenced within twenty-four hours after the coiitract was
awarded in July.
Q. ~Vhere did you make your purchases of cattle for that contract ~
A. ~tostly out in that country.  I think some of those cattle-men
were in New York, to be p esent at tlie letting and sell their cattle. I
think sonie of the cattle w re purchased in New York; at least I know
arranginents were made there with tlie owiiers for some of theiii.
Q. Atid this year I understand you purchased ~[abry's cittle. iii New
York-, at the time the coiiti'act was awarded?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In whose name was the contract of 1873-4?
A. A. H. Wilder, G. ~I. Dodge, and J. ~V. L. ~laven~.
~t~ I)id they have cotitracts for tile whole?
A. it wasdivided; Red Cloud and NVhetstone agencies were awarded
t) ~Vilder; Yanktoii and Cheyenne I~iver agencies to Geiier;tl Dodge,
and Upper ~Iissouri and Grand River ageilcies to J. ~V. L. Slavetis.   ~
Q. Atter the letting of tile contracts to those diilerei~t I)arties, was
there a coinbinatioit or partnership fornied, so that in fact the whole
contract wa~ executed at one tinie ~
A. Yes, sir.
~L~ liow many interests were there iii it?
A. The parties who had been awarded cotitracts, for inst~iicc, Dodge
atid Slavens were on the ~Iissouri l~iver, aiid tiicy were mixed iii) betweeti the agencies there.  They coiiclude~l they litid better iiiake otie
transactioti of the whole thing.  There would be a go~id deti ()f ~liiliculty
in ~ecuring herding~gronnds, as there were bttt few places where cattle
could })e kept, so these parties fornie~t a coI);1rttiersiiii~ lor their iiiiitual
conveilience, or, iii other words, tiooled all three c~~iittaets. 
~C)4
~? I)itl y~ii ~o iiito ~Jiat (~0I1~1)~10(~t~OI~?
Y~s. ~ir
~? Ii ~v1iat I~1OI)()1ti0l0?
~. ~~1i~it is ~oiii iii to j)FiVdtL;n~ttej's.  ~I~ty f 1~k ~vhat is tiie o~jtt~ t
of tlie (110(~stiO1I
~? Is t~i~re ally re'osoii ~v1iy yOH should iiot ~~iiis\vt'r it?
0  100  tiocie iS HO reosoli ~~iiy I ShOfll(l not`tiis~ver it, CXL'Cj)t til(~t
it ~0lll(l iiivo1~e tloe staterneiot of iny private busiiiess n)atters.  ~till, I
10 ave ioo ohiection to ai0s~Verii)~ it.  I w'ts not iii Ne~v York at the time
I 414 not a~teiod the lt~ttiii  of tlie colotract.  I 5f?flt iii a bi(l, but I was
ooot there iiiyself.  ~fter tlie awards were noade, ~Ir. Sla~'ens caine to
see iloc aiod asled inc to assist loin~ ill filling ijis coiotiact.  I u~ade an
arrali gcn~eii t with him to do it, aiid I took it oil' his hands, so far as the
work of filliiog it was concerned. Some tinoc aft~r that I`veiot to Ne~v
Yoi~k, aii~l saw ~Ir. ~~~ilder niod ~ieneral Dodge, aiid they a~reed to
pla~'e the whole niatter in niy hands.  ~Ve entered Ilo to a business
llrange!nent by which I slionl~l fill tlie contract.
$~. }{)1$ b5e{?me a party interested iu the contract?
(~.Did you floriiislo any portion of the capital?
~. Yes, sir  I furnished all the cal)ital~that was tloc cailsideration
tl~~t l~t lile iioto it~or rather loaned it to the con~paiiy.
~y Th[n ~L&PSll:
().~Vas there any assignment of the contract, ol' was it l~ereIy sublet
4. Xo, ~ir, there was iio a55i,Qiimeiit; I merely acted as ageiit for these
parties to (i0 tlie work for theiiii.  I liad about oiie-half iiiterest in the
(`oil tract, cxcel)t the Slavciis part of it.  I gave hini a Specifie(l iiiterest
in that Ilortion of it.
Q. Di(l yon have any aflangein cut with the men wloo got the contract
betbrc tlie lettiii~ ~
~. Noioe whitever.  I (lon~t thiiik I liad eve'. seen ~fr. ~~~ilder but
once before that in iioy life.
Q. 1)1(1;\Ir. ~Vheelerliave an iliterest il th~ coitract?
4. Yes. sir.
(~.I did not understaiid you to uoeiition iliS name with t!ie others.
~. lie was not a bidtler.
Ly ~Ir. llAPRIS:
(~.I~aldwin had all interest with Do(l~c?
N. lie ~(`l5 in their firm, I believe.  Laldwiii & Dodoc \V;15 tiie ii('tiilC
of their business firno.
Ly~Ir. ATllLRTON:
Q. Did that contract specify that it sliolold ilot be fillelI by other par.
ties without the written coil sent of tloc ~ecret;lry of tlie Iiiterior or the
Coinmissioi~er of In~liaii ~il'~irs
&. You lilean, Shoul(l not be assigioed?
Q. Nssigned or fille(l.
A. I (lO{0't thiiik that word  assigned' was ever used.
Q. I ask bCC('lUSC the st~ltCfllCllt has beeli made that there`vis a pi'ovision of that kiiitl.
A. You can fiil(l out in the Departuient.  I doii't thiiik that wor~l is
115C(i.  You nnderstaio~l, Pr{~fessor, that I filled this coil tract as tlie a~'ent
of those parties.  There was no assigilulent of aily kiiid.
Q. I understaiid it; and so I used tlie word  filled " iiistea&l of the
wor~l "assigne~1." 
3~5
A. I never knew of a regii1~ition of ti)('it kiiid.
~y the CllAi~~AN:
~? I suppose there was an a~sig'iiineiit,`tilt1 ~()fl filIud the eoiitriet in
~-onr own ii~tn0e?
~. Any assignn~ent- wonld have to be;1l)l)I()~e~l l)y tlie Seeiet1~)v of
tlie Interior.
I;~ ThIr. FAULKNER:
Q. Tli(~t would exonerate the O1igii)tl CO1~tr'iCtOr
A. Nes, sir.  As there h(~5 been a good de;~l ~(t~tl 010 this snb~eet, I
deAire to say here that all arrangelioeilts fou ii~y filliji  these eoiitr;iets
of other people have been I)nrely of a bnsiiiess eiiui'aeter.  There have
1)CCIl no eoinhinatioios of aiiy ki!0(l.  T!ie`t~r~I)gCII1CI1t5 loave been geloerally noude after the COntrjCtS have been aw'l1(led, eaclo ~)ui~ty at tioc
bi~lding trying to be suecessfnl.  N\~hoever (li~l hot ~et a eoiitraet would
do tiie next best thing he could.  So tar as ThIr. \Vljeeler is eoiieeiiied in
this matter, I went into a business operati~~ii with lii IL) 50!flC years ago,
in which it was necessary to have someb~~dy to as~ist to furni~h capital.
There was a large amount of moiiey nee~le~l. As there were no others
but us in it at that time, we still kept Up tlie b~isiiiess arrangement.
That was all there was about it.  As to the arraiige[iient with &`eneral
Dodge and ThIr. Baldwin, we were competitors for about five years iii
biddiiig, and always pretty close bidders, and we fiiially agreed to bid
together aiid make a busiiiess arrangement of it.  As to tlie arrangement with ThIr. ~Vilder, I never saw him to speak to hini about contracts
until after the contracts for Red Ciond and Spotted Tail agencies had
been awarded to him in 1S73-'4; and then I made a business arrangemelit with him, to take an interest in the contract, and assist him in
~lling it.  I load beeii iii that bnsiiiess for sonic fifteeii yeai's in that
coniitry, aiid I was familiar with it, while he was not.  It really was my
liusiiiess, and I could carry it out better than he could.
By ThIr. ThIARSll:
Q. Did you know ThIr. J. I&. FOremtn before tie obtained the contract
for last year?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~Vhere did he live when he obtained the eoiiti;iet?
A. lie lived in Peiinsylvania.
Q. ~Vas he a cattle-dealer?
A. lie was a stock-shipper; that is his business now.
(? Did he ever live in Omatia?
A. I don't know that he did.
(~.Do you know why he put dowi his ~l(iCC of resideioee O~iiaIoa
when tloe coiitract ~`I5 signed?
A. Yes  I was going to explaiii wliy lie ~)r()l)~ii)ly 50 lout it dowio.
(~.The contract says, "J. I~. loreinan, of ~)Iooa}i't.~
~.There was <`0 eoiotraet let here in 1~7l-L'~, ()V 1(~7()-'1 Ul)OU advertisenoents asking for bi(ls, and there was <`I 101<011 lo~- tlie naiioe of ~o&
who noade a bid, and dated lois bid Nebriska ~ity, alfhooiogh he di(l
iiot live iii Nebraska City.  lie was a Texis n)<'ill aiool li~'ed soioiewhere ill Texas.  The coiitraet`vas awarded to hiiio, aiid it threw ei}io~loetitors oft' tloe traek, niod loe e. cubed tioe abuse floe siio'eessfiil bioliler
usually gets to prevent an aw- id being inide lii 110.  Tlie s;tiooe tliiio g
li;os beeio done frequciotly.  I ha`e put iii bids, <`010(1 50 have other peolole,
tlo;it were ooot (late~t at tlie aeto al Iol;iee of' ro'si~leiiei'.  N\~1oeii tloe i-onti'<'iet is awaitleil to tlieiii aiod ~xeeuted. tloeio tlie~' h;ove to give their 
3(\(}
cxact lace ot resi~leiice, iii or~1er that tlie Departineilt may be able to
coI~1Ii11 1i~'itC ~~ith thCii0.  I have freqiiei~tly n~ade bids ~lated in Yew
York 1 nt I do not live in New York.  The impression also is that a
mait ~rcn~ the ~Vest, livin~ ont near the region where the cattle were
to be d~ livered, wonld staii~1 a little better chance of getting the award
than ea~tern men.
(~. SF? he put his ~it!ne in as of Omaha, although he did not live in
Omaha?
A.Yes; an~I had lie fillcd this contn~ct would ~~robably have gone
there; but this arra!igenient was made, aiid it was iiot necessary for hirn
to go there; that is the way be came to do it.  It is a matter of no iin
port'~iice at all.
Q.J~id you have any arraiigemeiit with hiin about the contract, in
case lie got it and yOu did not, before the letting?
A.That iiiatter is all down iii the evidence; the coii0missioliers have
got it oll.
The (?IIAIPMAN. Yes, we have been all over that.
By ~Ir. ~IARSll:
(). You know how ii)aiiy stampedes of cattle have occurred at the
I~ed ~~lou(l ageiicy tiuring tlie last fisc~il year?
A.There was oiily oiie during the last fiscal year; since we have
beeii doiiig business, only two; so I urn intbrmed by my brother. That
apl)ears iii liis evideiice.
~?- Do you renieiiiber when that stampede took place-the one of tlie
last fiscal year ~
A.I don~t recollect the exact date; but there was one aiid only one.
I siiI)l~()~e that is the one you refer to.
t? (JIn you tell n~e when the cattle that joii~ed your herd after the
stampede were returned to the agency ~
A.No; I had i~o control of them. All I know is the fact that they
weic returned.  That also has been stated very fully by iiiy brother;
lie 11 Id charge of thoSe matters.  A part of those c;ittle are tlie subject
of coiitroversy yet.
By lie ~~A~RMAN:
(~. I thiiik I understood you to say in your exaniiiiation heretofore
that you were iiever at Red Cloud agency or Spotted Tail agency until
last mouth.
A.That was my first trip
By Mr. MARSll:
Q.\~~onld your books or receipts show wlieii tlie staiiipeded cattle
were returned to the a~eiicy, if they were returiied?
A.~N~ell, if I uiiderst)~nd it, they were returned iii this way, as is exI)laiiied by my brother, who had charge of the matter The arnouiit was
de~lucte~l horn the next receipt for cattle that was given.  After the
matter was adjusted aiid they discovered the iiuuiber-I think one hun
4red (`hid 50~~ odd ii end, whatever the ii umber was-they took ~u average of tlie weight of the cattle that were delivered at that time, and
they deducted that amount from tlie next receipt, and receipted for that
many ~ouiids less.  That is my uuderstaiiding of it.
(~. The first delivery itter the stampede?
A.I think it was the first.  ~Vhether it was fl~e`list delivery or not,
I cannot say positively, because I doii't know; but it was the first delivery at which my brother J. II. was preseiit, I ain positive.  My
brother George was there at tlie time, and he told iiie that Dr. Saville 
367
declined to give him a receipt until those cattle- were returned and the
matter adjusted; but George contended that he bad delivered the cattle, and if he did not give him a receipt for them, there would be 110
more deliveries made there.  He said, however, that Dr. Saville and J.
H. could arrange that matter satisfl~ctoriiy, while he insisted on having
a receil)t for the cattle delivered.  So the whole amouiit W('~5 rcceipted
for, aii~I when my brother Herman returned, lie adjusted tlie matter
with the agent, and explained how they got at the number of cattle.  I
think it was about 128 head; but there was a question betweeii them
as to the number of cattle that had returiied to our herd, aiid that questioii was referred to the office here, and is pending yet.
Q. You mean that the cattle were not receii)ted for before they were
staini)eded ~
A. The cattle were receipted for, not before they were stampeded.
George delivered the cattle there, aiid then Stirted down to the \Vlietstone agency.  But while he was at ~Vhetstoue, the severe storm that
lias been spokeii of, as haviiig caused tlie stanipede, occurred.  NYhen
be caine back, he went to Saville for the receipts, but Saville, as I
have t~)ld you, declined to give them to him.  George ii) sisted that he
should have them, or be would not deliver aiiy iliole cattle.  Saville receipted for them, with the understanding that the niatter should be a~ljusted with J. H.; and then the Doctor dedneted tlie whole ainouiit of
cattle which he had lost, while we claiine~l tli;~t only a certaiii ii iiin her
bad come into our her~l, consequeiitly ttiere is  still a iiuiiiber of head
that we have never yet been pai~l for.
Q. How could there be any question`i~~out the receil)ts if tlie cattle
had been accepted by the agent and weighed?
A. There should iiot have beeii aiiy question.  The D~)ctor thought
he would keep tlie matter iii liis own liaiids.  Tl~ese C(ittlC st'iIi~I)eded,
and he took it for granted that they h(~d returiie~l to our lier~l.  George
claimed that he had delivered the cattle, aiid tli;it the Goveriiment was
respoiisible for them and iiot lie, an~t that lie wonld not deliver any
in ore cattle until he got a receipt.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. How soon after tlie receivilig aiid weigliiiig of tlie cattle by the
agent does your brother George or{liiiarily get t writteii receil)t froiii
the agent?
A. Iii this case be went dowi to ~~~lietstoiie aiid l~ack 1~ef~~re tiking it.
Q. Then, you deliver the cattle over to tlie ageiit (`it tlie c~~rr'il at tlie
sciles, and after that you get from tlie agelit a icceipt  I wai~t to know
what time elapses, ordiiiarily, before yoii get it.
A. There is no definite tinie.  ~ome of those n~ceipts are sent to me
{lirect by tlie agent; at other till) CS lie w'iits iiiitil iny brother J. II.
gets back, and he takes the receil)ts.  Sometimes George gets them, but
the general custom is to give rheni about niail-ilay.
So that, upon the delivery of cattle, you do iiot w;iit to get a
receipt be to re you leave?
A. No, sir; sometimes they are not got fl)U a week aflerward.  At tlie
tinie of the delivery there is (`i meinor~iiduiii takeii of tlie aiuonnts, and
tlie receipts are given afterward.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
(? Tlie Professor has beeii alluiliiig to tlie iiieiiior;iii(luiii re~eipt, n()
(l()iib.  ~~~lieii is it usual to give a ii~eInol';iliduin receil)t which 1~recedcs
tlie v uclier I 
~68
~. A\~Ii~ii tii~ ~~`(~~1tS;~e`~\Vdy, it is ~`~i~ei~}1y   V()11 ~)V t1i~ {~I~i'J  or
V11(~I1 tIi( (~~(~1)t ~S tti~re. iiottiiii ~,`1~II('lI~1~~, is t;~1~~~ii 1~nt tll( 1lI(~!I~or.~I1
(1t11I~ j`1 t~4ss~1~~~~~1~ s~tti        t1i~ Iliftil I)t)t' ot 11&'~(1 tli;tt \V~1& (iQ1j~~.
QICd.
1))y;\~i' ~IAIZsIf
Q. Tlieii your i~iot1ier ot~t;~iiie~1 ~ r~~eii)t t\)F ill t}ie c~tt1~ fro~ii \`(~1~t
~(`IV~11(? on itis r~titiii tU()fll ~\~hCt5toI1(
A. Yes. sir.
~? Is theie ~iiy ~~~y by wiiieii yon can tell tlie (l~~te ~vhe;i the e'tttle
that ~veie stiiiii~c(ie(i ~veie returiie~i?
A. Tlie coiiiiiiissioiiers have tlie &~~t~e tli;it \v;i  gi\ei~`~lieii they ~~ere
there.  Thr~ brotiier ~`eorge g;ive tl)('tt I li;ive hot ot it.
~? ~~(l ~-on evel have ally tr~iisactioiis ~~ith tlie ~tiyder b~'others. cattIe dC(IlCi5, near (?heye~1ne
~. I think ~ve had qnite a ~inii~}~er.  1 recogiliz~ the ilame very ~vell.
(~.Did they buy cattle of yon
A. No ~e bought cattle of them. I thillk I have in those Inemorai~da.son~e pnrcli~ses ina~ie of t}iCIil.
The (?IIAI1~~IAN. ~Ye have tlie testinloily of Snyder.
By ~Ir. ThfAP5ll:
Q. Ifo~v do tlle cattle ill the later winter-months C0a)~~~~ with those
in ~Iay, for instance`~
A. \Vell, there is a great deal of difference between that country on
the Platte`ln(l that on tlie ~Iissonri i~iver. The only cattle we deal in are
tii~ongh Texa~ cattle.  Ii~ ~fQy there are ilo through cattle there. But
tlie Texas cattle will improve from  the time they get on the range,
which is geiiernlly iii June, niitil, probably, the 1st of December. They
gain iii`velgl~t (~ll the time after that, and there is itot much tithing oil,
unless it should be a terribly severe winter.
Q. The cnttle would ilOt be flitter in ~Iay than they would two or three
iiionths beibre ~
A. No  I doii~t thiilk they`voul~l. I an~ speaking now of what you
call strai~ht Texas cattle-cattle that have been`viiitered over and become acclimated-become used to the grass.  ~Vhen they come out in
the spring, they are fat and nice; and some of the finest cattle that are
shipped to the eastern market go floin that country in the spring; but
those are cattle that have been kel)t on tlie fluge at least a year.
Q. The grass starts early in that country about the Plitte ~
A. It is liot tlie startilig of the grass; it is tlie dry wiiiter-~rass that
they fi~tten on.
Q. ~~~ould cattle be quite as fat in ~Iay or June as tl~ey wonl~l be in the
early s~)ring-iiioiiths
A. Cattle kel)t over OliC wiiiter after havii~~' sl)ent a year in tlie couiitry and become aceliniated and tlieii st~irted in oil the secoiid`vii~ter
a~~pear very well.
Q. Cattle you delivered at the i)~e(l Cloud agelicy ill ~[y an~l June
would be heavier. if ai~~-thing, than those yoi~ delivered in the`vilitermoi~ths
A. ~Vc (lon't discover much ~lifferci~ce in them; they are`ibout the
same; if they hive fed up during tl~e summer they geiierally hold their
own dui'ing the balance of tlle year, say to tlie 1st of Dece~nber.
Q. It was a very hard \vinter last winter; did that diii~inish the
weight of the cattle?
A. ~ot to any great extent; the ground was not covered with show.
There was a great leal of show, but it liad d~fted iii to tlie ravines.  It 
369
would be only during the continuance of a very severe storm that the
cattle could not feed.
Q. Did anybody besides these gentlemen you have nau~ed have any
interest in the contract for the last two years?
A. N\~hom have I named?
Prof. ~IARSll. It is down, I believe, those you named; those are the
parties interested in the combination who tooL- hold of the business after
the contract was let.
The CHAIRMAN. I understood him to say they were interested for
one year in one contract-Dodge and N\~iIder.
~VITNESS. Dodge and I have been intereste~1 since the coiitract of
187'2-'3, or the first contract awarded to him, whenever that was. I have
given the names of parties that I am interested with.  They may have
business partners, but the only parties I am aeeonntable to, or who are
accountable to me, are the pai~ties I have mentioned.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. I don't know but we h'~ve been over the grouiid flilly enoii~h; but
I will ask you how long you have been a coiitraetor with the In~lian Department?
A. Since about 1860.
Q. ~Tith the Indiin Department
A. Yes, sir.
Q. llave yon always been a bid~ler?
A. N\~ell, yes, whenever I saw anything I thonght was desirable to
bid for.
Q. Do you know whether at any tin~e your bids have been rejected
when they were the lowest?
A. I know they never have been.  I know I never have been the
lowest bidder when the coiitn~ct was not awarded to me.
Q. llas there ever been aiiy charge that you have not fulfilled a contract?
A. Never of a public nature.
Q. I mean in the Department.
A. No; none that I have any knowledge of.
Q. Do you know whether any charge was ever filed against you before the Board of Indian Commissioners?
A. Never heard of it.
Q. You never heard of it?
A. No.  If there is I don't know it.
Q. Do you know whether or not, at any time, any members of tlie
Board of Indian Commissioners claimed that yoii fi~iied to fulfill a contract, or either publicly or privately notified you of that?
A. No, sir; I know I never did fail to fill any contract with the
Indian Departmen~ or any other department.
Q. Are you now, and have you beeii for tlie last three years, a contr-~tctor with the Indian Dep;irtiiient iii your owii iiame?
A.  Yes; this year and last year.
Q.  Coiitractor for what?
A.  Beef at Fort Berthold.  I have not always beeii awarded contra~~ts, because I have generally bid very high.  ~~ly bi~l this year was
per hundred pounds  There is one thiiig I (10 tiot wish you t1)
l~~~e sight of, namely, that when I bid oi these coiitracts I try to ge
the be~t price I can, as a business transaction  and as there are ver~
few bid~lers, I sometimes bid prettv high and take tiie ch~inces that
there m~iy be none who will bid lower.
24 1 F 
370
~? ~Vh(~t was your bi(I last year-1S74
A.I tl)i!ik it ~va. only.~`~.b()  I dou't ren~eu~ber tlie exact figures.
~? Yon filled the contract at $ffi) 30 1
~.Yes sir.
`?. And yon filled the contract this year at.~2.4(l}.~?
A.Yes. sir.  That is ~ne of tlie business Ch(~1~CC5 I take iii l)iddii)~,
that there iiiiglit be I1O1)C wiio ~onld bid less than ~~.)~95, aiid I`vonl~l
get it at,~.)~(J5  There ~~as very little l~id~ling nuder tl~at figure aii~l
there are olily two )r thr~~e parties who bid on these contracts.
Q.~Yhy is that
N I3eeause they are not fai~~iliar with tl~e l~usiness.  There is a party
in Leavenworth. I&aiisas, wlio have alwnys been re~nlar l~i~Iders and
this year a Texas party ean~e in and bi(l. Ti~en the ~~eaveu'vorth party
was tlie oi~ly oppo~iti{)n I l~a(0.
Q.~aii you explain the reason why this bidding is confined to so few
persoi)~
Q.NVel}. ye~: I think I can.  In the first l)lace. it takes a large aniount
of ready c'il)ital to fill a coiitr~~ct of this t~uagnitn~le, aiid JiloSt of tlie peol)le who have g()t in()Iiey are engaged iii sonie otli~~r busiiiess, and have
not tlie re~idy ca~h to l)nrcliase so niany cattle.  I ~l~~n't iii can to say
that they have not n~oiiey enough to do it, but that they ii ave their cal)ital em~~loyed in some other enterprise, and these contracts are generally
bid on by pai'ties living ill the West.  There are very few }iersons livin there wiio can fill so large a contract.
Q.Are you obliged to pay cash for them?
A.Well, we always do it. I never paid a dollar~s worth in any other
way but for cash.
Q.()ash on delivery?
A.(i'ash on delivery.
Q.What further reasons are there?
A.Well, the want of expeiience in this business.  They would have
to go iiito a new country that they don't know very iiinch about; as
Professor ~Iarsli says, aii  uiiexi)lore(I country;" aiid they would have
to +ake consideral~le chances, which they are not willing to do.  Yon
would not be williiog to bid on a contract to furnish beef for ~ed Cloud
agency, because, wlieii you got on t there you would see that yon did not
know anything abo~it the business.  We have been there several years
and are fi~inili'ir with it; and those peo~~le at Leavenworth are familiar
with the busiiiess also, ajid they don~t consider the cliaiices of ally consequcilee.  Our experielice in tlie buiioess lias reduced our exl)e115e5
from the tinie we con~noeiiccd fully.~30,00() a year.
(;~. I see the contra&~ts require that you shall get your herd within a
reasonable distaiice ironi tlie agency, and ~ou keep it about    eight~ niiles
away.
A.Yes, sir  we did most of tlie time last winter.  What the contract
nican by that is that the agent shall know that the cattle are there
that tie can get them when he wants them; that the coi~tractor is not
likely to floil in having cattle 010 hand when they are needed.
Q.Do you con side that there is any risk at the present time in putting seventeen or twenty thousand cattle 011 the Platte Liver under
proper herders?
A.No, not a parti~le. I dou~t estimate the risk at oiie.quarter of one
per cent.
Q.What is the average loss of cattle in keeping a heid over a
year.
A.I think our loss last year was about in theiieighborhood of a thou 
~7I
~~`i~id iiead  b'it a great InaI)y of these cattle wer(' lost by strnying oft
in tiie wil)ter-time. ~Ve let our cattle loose on the range, ar~d in the
~J)rin~ of tlie year gather them together-what is c'~lled roni~ding them
ni), aiid we fiiid a good many of those cattle stray oft' and are picked ~l)
l~y other I)arties, and get into other herds,;tiid tlie Indiaiis kill a good
lllany, aiid last year we can~e out with about that nincli loss. If we
were to heid them closely and watch the~n careftilly, the loss would be
~-ery sin~ill  yet we find it is a good deal cheaper to lose a few than to
go to the extra expense of haviiig iiieu to keel) them in sight alt the
tin~e.
~? I want to know. ThIr. ~osler, w liether or not the pait of the macliiitei'y by which a few ~~ersoiis c('tll coiitrol the bidding is the exl)endittii'e ()f iliolley to keep other nleri olit &)f' the comlletition?
A. \Vell, be a little more CNt)liCit iii yoni' question; expenditure of
Ili()il~\V iii what way?
~? I want to kIlow`vhethcr you have expende~1 illolley to keep dowi
coilIl)(~tition?
A. Not a d~~llar.
(~.Do you ki~ow of its being done?
4 No, sir; I don't thiiik there is a possibility of its beiii~ doiie: I
don~t see why it would be doiie; a party bid~liiig hiS no kiiowledge ot
tlie an~onnt ot. conlpetition until the bids are ot)eued, to buy up parties
before the contract is awarded.
Q. Suppose the bids are all in and about being opened, and you find
a ulan who is the lowest bidder and eiititled to tlie coiltract, have you
ever known that mai~ to be hired to fail to comply with the requirements of the contract?
A. Never.
Q. It is a fact that a good n~aily such bidders diop out for SOilie reasons, is it not?
A. Yes.
Q. I)o you know what is the reasoii why they do it?
A. The particular reason is this: There ai'e parties who put in bi(ls
with the exl)ectation of some one o'i~
buying them oft' thinkincr that`ilig then~ something to drop oiit                         they may hai)pen to dro1 fn at sucl I)laces
that their bid will be valuable to some oiie who wailts to fill tlie contract
while they have no idea of filling it  and nly idea is that the inteiition
of the Department was to prevent that, and so provided that iio eon tract
should be filled by any other parties thaii tiie coiltractor, without tl)e
written consent of the ~ecretary of the Intelior, to coiifine it to &ona-fi~i
bidders.
(~.Do yoii know yourself of ally 5l~ cli persoii haviiig succeeded in
making molley by dropping out?
A. No, sir.
~? liave yOU ever paid any in such a w'ly
A. Never a dollar.
~? Lut still your judgment is that it is the PI'('lCtlCC of these pai'ti~~s
to make somebody pay them?
A. Yes; it 9fteii happens that w
res 1)on(ls, aiid in other cases theic   heii j)roposals arc iiivited nol~odv
15 5fln)( iilforiii;ility al~out tile bitldiiig
iLild if it Occurs iii Some place wl~ei'e they thoiigltt tllC~' in iglit I)ossi})ly
succeed in bleeding SOmebody, they w oiild iiiake their ~`lPl)Cii allee. ~ oil
~`ill flild a good many bids date~l New Yoi'k ~ity  ~)lit tlie bidders
tiever make their appearailce, and it is i1e~'cr kil(}\vli ~~~h() tl~i~y are.
~lr. I))OsLPR. I would like to tsk l~roi'essoi' ~1~ii'~li (`I si1l~lC (JilestiOll,
`is tie lias asked me some questions 
372
Professor ~IA1?SH. I am not on the w~tness'-stand.
~Ir. BoSLER. It is only otie question.
~tr. HARRIS. Is there any objection tc liis stating the question now?
Professoi' ~IARSll. I would rather it?VOfll(l come up ill the regniar
order.
Mr. BoSLER. Just one question, Yes or No.
~fr. HARRIS. The P~ofessor objects.
Mr. FAULKNER. You had better postpone it, as the Professor objects.
N'~ASIIINGToN, I). C,
Tues~1ay, ~eptember 14, I87~.
Present: Hoi~. Tll()~AS C. F1~RTcHER, chairmati; Hon. B. ~V. HARRIS,
Hon. CHARLES J. FAULKNER, Hon. TIMOTHY 0. HOWE, and Prof.
C~EORGE W. ATHERTON.
Tlie examination of Mr. J. N\~. BOSLER was resumed.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Question. I)o you ni~derstand what report is referred to by Professor
?\t{rsh when l~e si)eaks of tiie report of the Board of Indian Cou~rnissIoi~er5 exclu(~ing you from participation in future coiitracts ~
Answer. I do uot; but I think he refers to Mr. N\~elsh's letters, or
what Mr. ~V~lsh says in his pamphlet on that subject.  His pamphlet is
in argument before the Sub-committee on Appropriations, which was
call~d upoii to iuve~ti(rate these matters in the Congress of 1871 and
2. 1 thiiik.
Q. Of which ~rr. Sargent was chairman?
A. Of which Mr. Sar~eut was chairman; and these are merely liis conclusiotis from that document.
Mr. HARRIs. That is the Forty-first Congress, third session, House
P~el)ort No. 30.
~~I~NES5. If there was anything of that kind said about excluding
me, it was never brouc~ht to my knowledge  and I will further state, in
this eoiiiiection, that at the first letting after this iiivestigation occurred
there were but two cents per hundred poun~ls between my bid and that
of Cox, who was tlie successful bidder, I beiiig the highest bidder; and
there was considerable discussion between the chairman of the boardMr. Stuart I think, was chairman-and the Commissioner of Indian Af.
~airs and the Secretary of the Interior, as to whether they should award
that coiitract to me, notwithstanding I was not the lowest bidder.  They
finally concluded, however, that they would award it to tlie lowest bidder,
who was Mr. Cox.  The question then caine up between ~rr. Stuart and
Coin missioner Parker as to whom they should award tlie contract to in case
Cox did not respou~l. ~Ir. Stuart theii left the city, delegating his authority,
so far as he was coi~cerned, to the Commissioner, to have the contract
awarded to me.  In the followiiig year the board and the Coin missioner
(General ~Valk-er was then Commissioner) sl)elit quite a while in discussing the question as to which was tite lowest bidder-General Dodge or
myself-in order to letermiiie whom they would award the contract to.
~Ve were both very close bidders, atid they awarded it to (;eiieral
Dodge as the res~lt of their coticlusion.  His bid was the lowest.  The
next year after that I was not at the letting at all.  I sent in a bid,
but it was considerably higher than most of them.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. This evidence was offered in response to a question, what testi. 
373
mony be could refer us to to establish his proposition that the "well.
known Bosler'~ was notorious for fraud in previous contracts, and for
thi.~ reasou excluded by the public regulation fiO[I aI)y participation in
future coi~tr;~cts?
A. He referred to those doenments.
Q. Now, if you have any evi~lence to show that you were not ch.~rged
l)y any of the Iiidian Coiii~iiissioners or ally body else with I)revious
frauds, we wish you to tell us what it is.
A. I i~ever have. There never has been a Commissioner of Iiidian
Affitirs or a Secretary of the Interior since 1860 that I have not done busine~s with. I mean I have done business with them all.
Q. There has been sometiiiiicr said about a duplicate receipt for
*17.000, and that you drew the amount twice'?
A. I never did it.
Q. ~Vas there such a fact?
A. There was a discrepincy between the aQconnts of Agent French
atid Agent Livingston. It was a niatter cittirely with them. I had nothii)g to do with the contract. It was in 1869 or lS7()~I870, I think.
it was a question as to whose receipts should be paid.
Q. ~~hat was the receipt for?
A. For cattle.
Q. ~~~ho furnished the cattle?
A. The cattle were furnisl~ed by ~Iorrow.
Q. ~~ere you interested itt the contract ~
A. I was interested in the contract, but I wis not intere~ted in tite
settlement of the matter between Morrow and the Department.
Q. ~Vbo delivered the cattle ~
A. ~forrow (lid.
(~.J)id you obtain a receipt for the cattle?
A. Yes.
(~.I)itl you obtain duplicate recei1~ts`:
.~. No, sir.
(~.I)id the Government ever twice pay for those cattle?
A. No, sir; never.  I will tell you all about that matter. The facts
ar~ these: Major French was assigned to (luty at the Crow Creek
~geney as an acting agent for about a year. The first year of President
(J'flil)t's a(lliiiiilstration, lie tried the experiment of the Army taking
charge of tlie Indian business, and the assignment of military officers as
iig~Iit~ ~1ajor French received some four hundred.odi head of cattle
(~f ~lr. Morrow on colitract, for which he gave his receipt.  About teti
il;tys afterward he was relieved by Agent Liviiigston. Agent Living.
.~t~n reflised to receive these cattle of Agent French, on tlie routid that
Agent Fretich had received them in excess of the wants of the agency,
atitl he di(l not want to take care of them. Freiich went away and left
the cattle there. Livingston did not appear to take charge of tlietn, did
lioL t'tke charge of them, and there the matter stood until Freiich came
to.~ttIe up his accounts, about four or five years afterward. French~s
ret.ei[)t was presented, and tlie cattle paid for; and the questioi~ arose
l~tween those two gentlemen as to who was resI)oiisible fi~r tlie cattle.
It Wag neglect on the part of Livingston in not having taken cli:irge of
t~i~ cattle. There.was no doubt but that a large number of them  wele
1~~.~t to the Government, but wlieti they al)I)lied to L~~~iio~~t0ii t~) kiiow
" Ii`it li;ttl becoitie of them, lie made ~oilie rejiolt iii referetice t~i it, itid
Iirt'w tlie ~~5l)onsibility upoit ~Iorl'ow. tlie ~Otltr'ictoi'.  Tl iit w is live
y t~.'ir.~`1 go.
(~`\"ts there any comproiiii,~~? 
374
~~e~.  ir  it w~  1fl~(lC l)~?\[orro~v with tlie G(?veIi11i1&1)t.
`?  I)i(t ~ou icceive yO ni~ ii~oiie~ fioiii tlie (A oven  l)Clit I'I)Ufl th 2 tii'st
r&~~~il)t ~
A.  Ye~ sir.
(~. ~V<i5 that moiley yours or ~Iorrow S
A.  It w~~ ThIoriuw~s  lie was the coutrietor, aiid I`v<~s an iI1tCiC5~C(1
~)arty iii it.
(~. ~\~cll, then (~id Thlorrow make a compromise of that matter after`vird
A.  Yes sir: lie made a compromise. and his letter will sh~~w tlie i-caO!1`vliy lie (lid it.
Q.  ~Vliat was the compromise ~
~.  I don~t kiiow whether it has been eiitirely carried out yet  it is a
matter that only came up a few months ago.
~y ThIr. FAULK~TR:
~~. I liear~i of the transaction at Omaha, that ~Ir. ~Iorrow liad a reCCi1)t from  ~Ir. French, or some other person, for four hniidred cattle.
V})OI1 that lie received some ~16,OOO; wlieii the seeoiid agent, whoever
lie was, caiiie in lie gave hiEll another and more formal receipt, and
upon that he received $16,000.
A.  That part of it is entirely incorrect.
Q.  I don~t think these facts I heard are incorrect; I got them directly
from the lips of the United States district attorney; and this is his
statement: that Morrow received $16,000 a second time from the Govern~nent, by tlie carelessness of the officers of the Government; and thei'eii~~on, as the District Attorney informed me, lie was directed to institute
~uit ag;iinst Morrow.  I don~t thiiik he embraced you in the transaction.
A.  No.
(~. N~~r di~ he brincr a suit upon the bond, because he was clearly of
o~~iuion that no legal liability existed on the bond; that the condition
of the bond did not cover tile precise transaction.  That was the subject
of liti~ation, but he brought suit in behalf of the United States against
Morrow.
A.  Against ~Iorrow and his bondsmen.
Q.  No, he brought suit agailist those whom he supposed to be partners
in the transaction, but not npoii the boiid  and it was comproiiiised, as I
uiiderstood hiiu to say. and he himself recommended that the matter
be conipromised by Morrow fnrnishiiig cattle valued to the amount of
()()0  but he told me he liad iot yet disiiiissed the suit: that lie could
get no otlicial iiiforinatioi~ whether tlie coii)i)roniise had been made between tlie Governineiit a'id ~lorrow, or wli~~ther?\forrow had coiii1)iied
with the terms of tlie coui~)roinise.  So tlie suit is iiow peuding iii the
district court of the Uiiited &~t('itC5 at (~maha.
A.  That is correct  aiitl for that i-easoii I feel a }ittle hesitation in
inakiiig iny exact knowle~lge of that tralis;i(tio!i niatter of record here,
for if they get iiito a suit about it I nii~ht be called as a witness iii the
case.  I would give to the eojiimissioncrs privately aii exact stiteinent
of the whole tra'isactioii. with tlie uijderstan~liii~ that if?\Iorrow slioiil(l
~et into legal ditheulty that iiifoi~iiiation shoul~1 iiot be used ag<iiust
him.
~Ir. FAvLR-NLR. Tlie or~ler receive~l by tlic United States ~listrict attoriley from tlie I)epartiiieiit of ~usti(e was. that he should dismiss tliis suit
~f the ~Tnited States agaiiist ~Iorro'v.in~l ~~tliers, if theit be others  theii
there is superadded in tlitlcreiit liindwriting, (I saw tlie letter iiiyself,
iiiaiiifestly in the haiidwri~iiig of tlie Attorney-Geiicral himself,)  pro 
375
vi~~ed he has complied with the terms of tiie coln~)romise.  The District
Attorney says that he had no knowledge that ~Iorrow had coin piled with
the terms of the compromise, and he conferred with ine as to how he
should address a letter to ascertain the fa~~t whether the compromise had
been complied with or not.  I told hiin ttie I)roI)er c~~nr~e woul~l be to
correspond with the Departmei~t of Justice, aii&l let tlie Attoriiey-C~en
eral refer his letter to the Secretary of the Iiiterior ai~d Coiniiiissioner
of Iiitlian Aft)~irs to ascertain whether the coiitractor li;~d conipli~d with
tli~ ~on)l)romise by delivering cattl~ to the valu~ of $1(3,~UO.
By ~~r. llARRIS:
Q. ~~hat I want to get at, ~[r. Bosler, is whether you ii ave kiiowiedge
of the tact that the sum of.~l(3,O~)() lias been twice i~aid
~. No, sir I have not.  The eoi:~~)romise was really n~ade by ~1orrow
at tlie ~olicitatioii of the bondsmen. they beiiig fearful tl~at their standilig aii~l credit n~ight sniler in connection with a suit of that nature.
P~ED CLOUD Ao~~cy, NEBRASKA.
Ti ~~-~d(~y, I llg?~st I'~, 1Q~7j.
COUNCIL WITlI AP~APAllOES AND CflEYENNES.
The Arapahoes and Cheyennes who were not present at the coiiiicil
with the Ogallala Sioux desired to be heard in their own behalf, although
they wished it to be distinctly understood that they all are friends, and
live together as one people.  Accordingly, an interview was arranged for
them in the ageiit's office, where they met the commissioners this afteriioon.  Black Coal spoke for the Arapahoes, and Little N\~olf for the
(?heyennes. Friday, an Arapahoc, who speaks Lnglisl~ well, interpreted
for his people, and William P~owland performed a similar service for the
Cheyeniies. Jules Ecoffee was present also, and assisted tlie interp?eters.
The CHAIRMAN. We had a talk with tite Sioux yesterday, and we hear
that you would like to talk with us.  NN~ are glad to see you, and we
want to talk to you. We want to tell you what we came here for.  Tlie
Great Father heard that bad white mcii had been treatilig you badly and
cheating you out of your provisions and supl}lics aii~l annuity goods,
and he sent us out here to learn if these tliiiigs were true.  The Great
i~ather was told that some bad white men had been cli~atiiig liim an~t
<~lieating you, and we waiit tu find out if that is so.  Ife he'~i'd that last
winter your peol)le did not have enough to eat, aiid suflbred a gleat deal
i'~r tlie want ol' clothing, and if that was so we want you to t~ll us all
iboiit it liow.
-B~~c~ CoAL. I only came here a short tiiiie ago, last fall, with my vil lage. I only know a little, because I have iiot l)CCii here loii~, l)iit I cait tell
.t~ far a~ I have seen-seen myself sometimes, iiot ofteji: ~\ lien I got n)y
r.itii)iis olice in a while I got bad ratioiis.  Some of tlie l)ork`v.15 51)oiled
iii tIlt? birrels.  We knew th;it, because when we caii~e to boil it we saw
t li;it it "-as bad.  Sonie of the coflbe ~~5 iiiilde'vc(l. hid SOIliC of tlie
.~ii~.'ir was t'iis yellow sugar.  ~[ost of it wa~ (?()(l 5I1~'ii$.  When I first
(~~LIii( here     tobac~o, but
I got ~oo(l         atter I i-c in;iiiieil here f got soil) C ba~l
t')l)~iC(~(), aiitl "-lieu I cut it to siiioke it I fouiid stiels iii it, aii~l it was
l~~iil`Lilil iii.'i le my head ache.  ~on four Coiiiinissi()iiei's tli(it h;i~-e beeii
~~itiit i}ilt lier~ by the Great Father, I wish yoil would listei~ t() inc aiid take
1)it y ii ~() ii n e.  1 am glad to see you.  This is tlie lii'st tiiiie I have
~l)(ilC1.ii al~ou niy country.  I have ke1)~ still, l)Itt I tin ~l~tiI t() SeC you
 
J?6
~vlio are just from NVa~hi~igtou, and I ain not;iiir'~i~l to speak out.  I call
this country niine.  Thesc (?liuyeiiues weic b~~rn here iii this country.
They are my fi'ieuds, and I wisl~ yoti to list(~i1 t()`15 to-~lay, aiid see that
we get good grub.  Last all, when I ~ad a little couii~~iI ~vith the comn~1sA1oners. they wanted 115 to go to tlie south, btit I told them I
was raised' in this ~onntr~- aiid liked it, aiid could not leave it.  They
wanted II)e to go to the south.  I said I was not raised there, and (lid
not want to go.  I have still got this in my head, and I don't waiit to
leave here.  I want to reiiiaiu here with tlie Sioux.  The Great Spirit
listens to nie to-day and h~ars tlie way I talk.  I atn not afraid to say it.
The Great Spirit ~~1vc us this place here.  Look at me aiid my people
and the clothes they have.  I have never got anything yet for my lantl.
It is part n~ine, aiid part the Sioux.  I like them. They are what I call
"big friends.  They are a big tribe.  In the first I)ltce, th~v came from
the ~1issouri River and reached this i)lace and now they have got 111>
this far, and they claim all this land.  I want to stay here because I
like the Sioux.  Now you have just come froin ~~ashiiigtou and the
(Arcat Father, and you are the same as the Great Father, aiid to-day you
must take pity on us, and you must tell the Great Father what we want.
N\~e would like to get cows to raise, and we would like to be shown how
to raise corn and stock.  That is what I waiit.  I am very glad to see
you to-day, and hope you will tell the Great Father about it when you go
~~ack.
The CIlAIRMAN. We will tell the Great Father of this.  We want you
to have sheep and raise wool like the Navajoes.
BLACK COAL. Another thiiig I have got to say is soniething about the
Black Hills, for my friends the Sioux.  The first commissioners who came
here had a council with the Sioux about the Black Hills.  They wanted
to buy them, and they promised to keep the whites off; but the white~
did not listen.  They came in on the sly and stole the gold.  They did
not wait till the commissioners got through.  The commissioners had
gone to see the tribes on the Missouri River, anti I am very glad to see
now that these miners have all left the Black Hills; I don~t want to see
any trouble between my fiieiids.  ~Iy people beloiig to the Northern
Arapahoes; some of my people have gone south, and I want them to
come back.  Now I`yiil talk about the goods we get.  Sometimes we
get little 2 and 2~ point blankets, and some of us are very tall, aiid of
course they are good blankets, but they are all very sniall.  This time,
when they bring blankets to give us, we want o-poiiit blaiikets, larger
than those we have been getting as those we have beeii gettilig are too
small.  All the country south ot' here belongs to me, aiid I h~ive beeii
driven back.  All my people were born here, a ii (I that is tiie reast)n I Cili
this niy country.  I never got l)aid for that laud.  Iii 01(1 tiri~es my graii~l
fathers, who are all dead i~ow, the first time they saw a white iiiaii lie
taught them how to shoot aittl to wear clothes.
The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to have some clothes lilje tlie white
men for your people
BLACK COAL. Yes. sir  we would like to have good clothes, coats,
pantaloons and hats,just the same as you wear. You showetl tis fii-st liow
to wear clothes.  I am very glad if the white man sh~~ws lie ally thiiig.
We used to live first rate before tlie soldiers etme to this c(~uliti-y  when
they canie tlte first thing they di(l ~-~ls to try to iaise a`vi~.  ~\ e used
to travel with the old mountaineers, but since these soltlieis canie ilito
this colintry they have spoiled every thing aiid walit war.
The (?HAI1?MAN. ~\~e want peace always now, an~l we`~-alit   tlie Ar'll)ahues aiid Cheyeniies to have a heap of cattle aiid sheep iii this tt)uiiti-v. 
377
~~Ir. llARRIs. Are there ally other complaints you bave to make?
BLACK COAL. The Arapahoes are called the peace tribe. I never
begin war.  ~Vhen I make peace, I always keep it. That is the way with
all the Arapahoes; and I am very glad you say you will give ine all these
things to raise.
The CllAiR~IAN. W\~e doii't I)roJi)i~e you all tlie~e thiiigs  bllt we wallt
you to have them, and we will tell the Great 1~atlier what you want him
to do.
BLACK Co~. We have some horses, ai~d we have our sto(~k that we
rai~ed ourselves; and we walit cows aiid chickens, hogs and shed).
~Ve`vaiit all these things but horses; we hive them.
The CHAI~MAN. Did your l)eol)le suffer t{~r anything to eat last wiiiter?  That is what we waiit to kiiow.
BLACK COAL. There is ojie thing I waiit to say to you.  I have heard
soniething about changing the ageiit we have now.  We doii't want a
military officer for our agent.  ~Ve want a citizen, tlie same as we have
now. I cant say where, but I saw the trouble last wiiiter.  We suffered
last winter; everybody knows it; the agelit and all know it. Tlie snow
was the cause of it between here and Ch~veune; it prevented them
from coming over. The teams could not get here on that account.  We
have not got much to eat siiice we came to this agency.  Siiice we have
been counted they give us something; but we don't get enough. Wheii
we were on the Platte we used to get a great deal; but since they have
moved the agency we have suffered for something to eat.  We don't get
enough.  I have not got two tongues.  I have only one tongue.  {[
speak the truth.J  We draw rations every ten days, and we eat it all
up in four days, and then its all gone.  Well, th at's all.
LITTLE WoLF, of the Cheyennes, was asked by the chairman to state
what he knew in regard to their provisions. lle said: Our provisions fall
short occasionally on ration-day. I have not mnch to say.  I have been
well treated since I have been here. I have sent for the balance of my
people who are out north to come here, and I wish to rem~iin here, and
I want you to tell my Great Father so.
WILD lloG. I was born right here iii this country, and I want to remain here.  The Sioux, Cheycunes, and Arapahoes are pretty niuch the
~ame people, and we all wish to live together.  Occasioiially we draw
rations here, aiid they fall short, just as Little ~\~olf his told you.
The CH&IRMAN. We are glad to have he'~rd you talk.
ANOTllLi~ TALK WITli SITTING BULL.
Tlie commissioners then adjourned to anofl~er apartment iii tlie agents
office, where they met Sitting Bull and other Iiidiins who liad exl)ressed
a wish to have another informal talk.  Aiiiong those j)reseut were chiefly
~itting Bull, Old-~Ian-Afraid~of~his~fl~~rse, Face, Fri~lay, IIole-ii}-tlie(~ round, Wol~ear, Fast-thttnder, Shoul~ter, aiid Fire-thunder.
Tlie CIlAIRMAN. We are iiow ready to hear what you have to say.
~ITTING BvLL. We want to tell yoii al~out I~rofessor ~Iarsh.  ~Vlieu
lie ~~ts here we protected hini froiii gettilig iii to trouble, iiiy~~~lf-I'ace,
ii~d 1'ast-cloud.  He canie here outsiile tlie stockade, ti~d said lie was
g()IiIg olit to l)i(~k up petrified bones.  lie a~keti IliC t() go wit 1 hi iii, aiid
(hue other lnditiis.  About that time all the iii~li;~iis ~~~t ijews tlt;it he
 
378
~v~~ ~oii~~ out.  I ~~ke~~ liitii to ~(`~~ us ~)y the {1<'~y  )1 goilig ~vitIi hiu~,
~t tlie rate of.~1() a ~av. for goiug ~vith lijIll qs s('()1~1~.  lie ~(`i~~l lie was
j}oor, an~1 (lj(I i~ot ~V(i11t to I~~'v that ii~uth  aii(l ~V( i~ke(l liiiu th(~1l f~r
?~~) a 4;iy; the~ he 5(~~d h(`vonl(l give 115 ~~1.5() a di; for ~~)i1i~.  ~~~hen
lie (liii not oiler ns eiiough, we snid we woul'l iiot Itt lii iii ~o. bee~use
there were too many Iu~liaus there.  The Iiidiaiis tOl(l iiie if I went thQ~ffi
would shoot n~e. The I1i(l~(tflS hid just got their a;ii-~iiity.~ooils at that
time, anil w~re all elinpetl over there, aiid we askett I)rofess~~r;\[;irsli to
~`~it tiiitil they liad goiie.  Then the Indians s;iiil, beeluse I alliiwe~l lii'~
to go. they woulil kill inc. niid I came iiear gettiii'g into trouble on liis
at.eouiit.  I told th~m I wa~ going out with hiiu aiiy w<iy, a-id they
might shoot if they waiited to. I a~ked Profes~or ~f'ir.~li to wait uiitil
they moved off for I saiii`If you go now you will get iiito trouble; " but
lie would not listen t() inc, but went on before we saw him  lie started
in tlie night he may have gone in the day-tiiiie, but we did not see
lii in go.  I had a talk with tlie Sioux about Professor ~Iarsli, and the
iiext inorniug I went hunting 011 the P~epublican.  Sword kiiows more
about it, but lie is not here  but you niight have a talk with him, and
lie will tell you soniething more. I doii't know anythiiig about Red
Cloud taking those things out of the commissary.  NVe asked for good
foo(l, and they put dirt iiito those samples to make them look bad, so
that they would get better grub  we don't know anything about Red
Cloud taking those things out of the commissary aiid sending them
down there.  Face saw P~ed Cloud putting up the samples to give them
to Professor Marsh; they were not taken from the commissary.
Mr. FAvLKNER. ~~here were they taken from?
FACE. They were to send it out of the things that they got from the
agelit.  I mean that P~ed Cloud did not get it from tlie commissary.
Mr. ATHERToN. N\~here di(1 Red Cloud get it?
FACE. I don't know anything about Red Cloud getting anything
there, and no one here knows anythiiig about where he got the stuff.
StTTING BULL. I was in there when they were talking about sending
those things down, but I don~t know who put them up.
FACE. N\~e liad the same food at the old agency as we have here, and
the same when Professor Marsh was here.  N\~e would like to explain
to you about our goods.  N\~e had a~Od5 here last fall for twenty-one
different bai~ds  there were more than one hundred that did not get
anythilig.  The reason was that we were registered when the people
were away, and when the goods eaiiie here there was not enough to go
rouiid.  ~Ve had all come l~aek. That is all we have to say.
The CiiAIR~tAN.  ~~~e are very glad you have talked to n~, aiid we
have put down all you have s;iid, aiid we will take it back with us.
kiler the interview, Sittiiio Bull eaiiie forward aiid said that the youn(Y
nici`inil himself waiited their I)reselit agent, Dr. Saville, to remaiii,anil
they waiited this fact stated in the 1.el)ort of tl~e coiniiiissioiiers.
TALK WITH TURKEY-LEG.
Turkey-Leg, of tlie Cheyeuiies, called on the coniiiiissi~)ii iiiil re(~uc~tc(1
to have a talk.  Among tiie other (?lieyeiiiie InijililS l)i(~~e1it were
inilhoii, Spotted Llk, Big Thigh. 01(1 Bear, ~Valkiiig, Eagle. aiid Calfski ii Shirt.
William P~owland acted as iiiterpi-eter. 
379
TURKEY~LLG said: ~Lv fathers were 1(~~SCd in this eonntry lived and
(lied her~, aiid all the Cheyeiiii~s here co~isider this coantry as much
theins as the Sionx's, and we wish to 1'en0aiI~ here with the ~ionx.  I am
glad to see yoti men. I think you are ood lie!). atid I wi4i you to listen
to what I have to 5QV; and to tell niy Gi'e~it Either what I say when yoii
~o back.  I am going to tell you tlie truth  a ~reat niai)y Iiidians lie,
biit I have but one tongue, and aui g{)iI)g to tell you iiothiiig but the
truth.  I have been at the ageilcy oil the reservati~)ii, for four years, aiid
Ii ave never left it, and I have tried to keep peace with the whites.  ~~~e
(anie to this agency with tlie 1~ed (?loud Sioux, aiid we wish to reiiiaiii
with them.  ~Vhen you go back J walit you to tell iny Great FIther that
I ain l)OO~ and my peoi)le are poor aiiil I wish to have sonie in ore aii -
unity goods. They have beeii givillo- the Sioux cattle and horses.  I
would like to have some cattlc ajid soii)e horses too.  ~lso, I would like
to have a few wagons for my l)eol)le.  Tlic~- live in this country, and
they would like to have some wagoii S to haul wood and luniber to build
houses.  Also, I would like to have a few chickeiis and hogs aiid sli eel).
I hope you will listen to me aiid take tileSe words of ulilie back to iiiy
Great Father arid ask hiin to assist me.
~ln FAULKNER. N\rould you like to live ill houses permaneiitly fixe(l?
TURKEY-LEG. Yes, sir; that is the reasoii I ala`Iskilig you for these
hogs and chickens and wagons; there is no more ch'Liice to live by getting gaiiie on the prairie.
The (1HAIRMAN. These men here [p2iliting to ~Ir. Faulkiier and ~Ir.
Harrisi belong to the Great Couiicil ~r the Gi~eat Father, aiid they will
put your words before the Council.  N\re are very glad to hear you talk,
and we want to do you all the good we can, but- our business here is otily
to learn if your people have got their ratioiis ai~d alinuity goods heretofore, an~l to learn if anybody has doiie them any wrolig.
TURKEY-LEG. For tlie last four years, since J)r. Daiiiels started the
agency on the North Platte, excelit within the last year, I have rece~ved
eii()ugh annuities, but since then the amount lias been small.
~Ir. FAULKNER. Do you think you couI~1 make your liviiig on this
land by farming if you were furnished with wagolis and farming iinplenients ~
A. I have never tried to make a faria-a fi~w are living like white
men-but I think if ~ve had tlie iiiii)leiiieiits we c'~iil~l (10 50.
The CHAIRMAN. ~Yere the sni)l)lies yoii rcceive'l list wiiiter good?
TURKEY-LEG. Tlie flour, sugar, aiid coflee have beeii very goo~l, everything except the pork  we li;id soiiie li~rl which was liot good. All
tlie other grub was good eliongli it we 11(1(1 iiiore ot it.  Tlie first tobacco
that eaiiie on here was in big, flat plugs, tad`v-~s g~~(i~t t()b'lccO, but tlie
list was not good and bnriit oiir t01i~li~5
~tr. IIARRfs. llow was it about tli~ l~laiikets
TUlKEY LEG. I don't know about that  I reccivetl eiiough for my
I (~()I~le.
~lr. FAULKNER. ~ould tlie ~-ouiig uieii of your ti'ibe like to live aiid
dit~ss like ttie white peoi)le?
Tt~l~R-EY LEG. I don't know that`ill of them woulil do so at once, but
they ~:ould gradually collie to it iii tiiiie.  These clothes thit I ltave oil
I le;iriied to wear from tlie white iii~iii.  I h~ive iievcr lieeii t() ~~~(l5ll~Il~
tl)ll t~i see my Great Fathei-, aiid ill I l~il()w al)~iiit t is wlieii iiieii like
yt)il (~l)!lle here, and I want to scud "-li tit I s;iy to you by you to illy
( lt~tl! litlier.                                     sliowit
`Ftic (:iiAii~~rAN. I~very word yoii sly is l)Ht (lOw!)  iid will be 
3~O
to the great ~ouiicii.  ~Ve thitik yon have ~pokeii well and said what is
good.
TURKEY LEG. Dr. Saville kn~~w~ me since I ii ave been here; he knows
I have been a good maii to n~y l)e~~l)le  aii~1 lie li;ts beeit a good man
to me.  I have heard some few of tlie Sioux spetkilig bad about Dr.
Saville, but as for myself I like him very iiiucli.
The CllAIP~IAN. ~VO11l(1 the young fliCli of your tribe be willin~ to
work themselves iii building liouse~ if th~y had the ii~aterials, aiid white
men to show them how to iise them
TURKEY LEG. I thii)k most of them would.  Yon asked me that before, aiid I told you all I wanted was the in~pleineuts, aiid if we had
them I think a majority of the men would go to work.
~Ir. FAULKNEl?. ~~e wish you to distinctly understaiid that we came
here with no authority to n~ake any promises whitever; that we came
here merely iii pursuit of information to report to the Great Father.
TUE KEY LEG. I understai~d.  And I wish to say that half of us are
now living out of doors and we want shelter.  If we doii't have houses
we must have tents at the next distribution of aiinuities.
RED CLOUD AGENCY, NEBRASKA,
Thursday, August 12, 1875.
Present: lion. THOMAS C. FLETellER, chairman; lion. B. W. liARRIS,
lion. CHARLES J. FAULKNER, and Prof GEORGE W. ATHERTON.
Dr. J. J. Saville, the agent, appeared and presented the following
statement iii relily to Protessor ~Iarsh's charges:
DI'. SAVILLE'S ANSWE~.
RED CLOUD AGENCY,
A?y(1~~t 12, 1575.
-Iii.%`~(C' I' f' J. I. A%~~'i11c, L~)tjtC(1 ~t(~tCS I~idaj~ age)it at Red (`toud aqency,
to tI~e c1ta~'ge.~ n~a~1e by ~i'ofe~sor ~Ia~'sh.
CIlARGE 1.-The Indian agent at J?ed C1o~(d agency.
Iii reply to this charge, I will ~ay, ii) regar(~ to Red Clond's and Professor ~1arsh~s oj)inioii as to lay vacillatiiig CharIeter, I have notljii~~ to
~ay, but leave it to tlie comalissioners to ap~ily to those who have ha~i
lietter opportlillity of aseertainiiig as to niy co~nl)etency.  Professor
~I~rsll hid little ()~)portunity, aii~l tiid iiot take advaiitage of what he had,
to ascertain`Inytililig about iny niethod of dealiiig with Iiidians, as to
whether there is any system iu my management of aflairs here.  As to
the occurreiice to whieh lie refers in this charge, which he calls aii " act
of folly," I refer to my letter to the Comniissioner of Indiaii Affairs of
October ~"4, 1874, tele~i~iii~ ai~d letter of ~aiiie date.  Ui~ou ref&rling to niy abstracts of i~~ties, I tili(l what Professor ~Iai'~li cliaracterizes as frai~d is a cleritil eiiiir iii tlie clerk ~~laeiiig the ti~tires O~)posite tlie date of the Sti ~Li~tC(id )f tlie 1~t ()t ~0' einbei, i~ it should be.
Furthermore, that tlie f~~rnis UliOll ~Vl)iCli the~e ab~traet~ ai'e made tlo iiot
and cannot re'1~l~~eiit ~l1 the t~i( t~ i~iiineeted with tl~ iS~i1C ()t prov ision~,
ind, a.~ a niatt~~r of faet, thit all tlie issues`t~C' not ma~le 111)011 tlie first
ilates, but, as it will   be observed, they auc to ~late trom tlie ~th to the 
381
14th, and from the 15th to the 22d, and so on  and that the issues are
~1)('~4C On either of the days between these two dates; that the issues of
beef are always made on different days froni the issue of oHier rations
and that these dates represent the number of days for which the amount
of rations set opposite these days are given, and that they foot uj) an
(`1 gregate of the correct amount of provisions that are issued dunng
the quarter, each month's issue being divided into four parts, and thus
eiitered on the abstracts.  lleretofore the beef has always beeii issued
every ten days, the Indians having firmly resisted any change to the
seven or eight days' issues.  Further, in regard to tlie withholding of
r~tiOii5~ I refer to my telegram to the Commissiotier of In~lian Aff~irs,
~)f ~etober 19, 1874, telegram and letter of same date.  In re~)ly to
tlie allusion to the report of Inspector i3evier, I refer to my letter of
November 12, 1874.
Iii reference to Professor ~Iarsh~s visit to this agency, I refer to my
ii~~)'ithly report to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs for November
~574.
CHARGE II.-~~umber of Indians at the agc~~cy over-estimated.
I will state that tl~is charge has been a constant complaint of all
ftnlt-finders ever since I have been at this age!)Qv, aiid tl~ere has been
ilo time since I have been here but what I have eariiestly endeavored
to obtain the correct number of Indians to be fed at the agency, and
tl~ere has constaittly beeii a resistance on the part of the In~liaiis to
allow their correct numbers to be known.  It has beeii the source of the
greatest part of the difficulties which I have encouiiten~d iji my work
here.  For a detailed statement of this questiou,1 will refer to my letter
to tlie Commissioner of Indian Aflairs nuder d(LtC of Sel~tember 27,
JS73; also to my report of the number of Itidians receivilig rations
at this agency, dated December 29, 1S73; also to a report of a council
held December 29, I87d'; letter of February 2, 1874, to the Commissioner o~f Indian Aff~tirs, and letters of February 14, ~Iarch 24, and
~ctober 19, 1874, and telegram of same date to tlie Commissioner of
Indian Affairs, and to correspondence with Major ~Iears; also to
letter of November 5, 1874, and the statement of tlie number of
Iiidians, by actual count, made under date of November 13, 1874.
I will further reply that Professor ~Iarsh is incorrect in his statement
that I said that the Northerii Indians " were in camp within a short (lis.
taiice of the agency, on the i~orth side of ~~Thite 1?ire~-." I stated that
they were camped on a creek beyond the L~ad Lands, where he wished to
go for bones; and this statement I gave from informatioii received froni
In~lians.
Professor Marsh's estimate of the numl~er of Indians at this agency
i~ I)urely conjecture, he ha~~ino no means of ascertainilig tlie truth ot
ally such statements.
CHARGE III.-L~sue of annuity-goods.
I~rofessor Marsh's quotii~g of the supposed wor(is of Red Dog only
~lio'vs liis ignorance of Indiaji ch;iracter aiid tlie situatioii of afflirS at
tlie ageilcy, and illustrates the worthlessness of all his observatioiis
V liile here.  If he h~~ golie t~) the other ii cad iii eli who were receivillg
`ililillitieS, and made inquiries tit them, they would probably have as 
3S2
.~t11U(~ lii il tli;it 1~~~~j i)o~' ~v~s  ettin _r n~ti~1i H]OFQ t1i'~ n liis ~1i<ir~ (~I~(~
t~)(y ~v~re ~~~tii g H)U( h 1~~~ th;~ii tbtii'~  qii~1 th;it tlitir COJ1)1)l(1~fltS of
~Ii~ ~ni~t11 1~t0'1~ljUr of ~)i~1ik(?t~ ~V('~S ~v1iat ~~()1~1(~;i1~~'l~~ O(~Ur, ~~II(~(?U aijy
cii'&tiiii~taii`(~s.  but ~~ (I iii~tt~r of fict, t1i~ II)(1~('1I1S (~i&I not g~t (liougli
O(){I~ for tile nun~ber re&~iviii`tn(1 tlii  f'tt~t ~Y~~ ~liily r~I)orte(~ by uc
~o the IJe1)' rtiiieiit.  I ~vi11 tiiither ~(`1~ tilIt tiliS (`~fti(1('~VIt of {~oui~ 1~~j(',Iiir~1 I~esha~ is a t'har;ieteri~tie 0l)C, (`111(1 ~1lo~v~ 1i()~V C(')~~ It i~ for desiguin  1)er~ons to Obtilti (`lff}d~tV~tS froni ~iic'h inen`ts I~i~h'1r~I about thii
they ~iiow little or I)othii)~.
()f~ the evideiiee Iii reg;ir~1 to the nuui1~er of l~1aiikets i~~ue4 I ~h('1l1
j~re~ent ~y books aii~l I)aI)('rs bills of ladiii  )f t!ie r'lIlrO'ld, aiid ot the
ireighters at CIlCyCI)iiC to the a~eii('y,;tii~i tlie tC5tIIil')!ly )f the eni1)105 ~s wlio assiste~i ill issuiii  th~iu,  tii~I of l~~~&l (Wlou(1 t1)d other Iii.
diiiis who receiv~d the goo~is.  I fititlier state tilit lily retnriis Ah()~v
that there were thirty-seven bales i~sue4, anti not thirty-five, a~ Pr()fessor Thfarsil st'~tes.  I e<aii say tiiat I have never obs('rved that the
stalul) hati iIU'urett the b1~iiikets an(~ have iiever li~';irt1 ally eoiiii)laiilts
in regar~1 to it  bnt that is a (~UC5tI011 betweell tile Del)'lrtulent and the
~~ontraetors, aii&l for which I an) not resj~oiisib1e.
I ~ ill s;ly here iii rC~'Ir(I to tlie I)rotest ag'aiiist tlie iiiaiiiier (~f the
i-~~iie that it has a1~vays beeii custoinary to issne goods of this kind iii
this lilli)ner in one day, and tl~at the In~liai~s ~-ould not I eCCIVe theiii in
alis- other way if I ha~i atteini)ted to issue them ~lifi'ei'et~tly.
Ja iegard to the t~ine of delivering tlie goods, I will state that tile
tirst g'o~ds receive~l at (Jheyeii~ie was Septeniber 20.  Tilese were iu~niediately loaded, and the iir-~t received at the agelicy ~vas October (3
tlie last blaiikets aiTivili  (`it tlie ageilcy October )(3  aiid they were
tilt-u withheld by Oi'(lei' of tlie ~oniinissiouer of Iiidiai~ Aillirs, ~vhich
t~i~ler was issued at iny ie(!uest in order to con-iliel tlie JiitJians to
~ilt)il)It to be counted, which I had been so long etideavoriiig to accoin 1)1 ish.
~`I~AP(;;L I~~.-P)(~i~d~ in b~~j-c~~tt1e.
Til)' tii-~t ~~tatc~ueiit in this ch'irg~ wliicJi affe~'ts ii)C aic the ~`ords
~)f I~i uicss~~r ~Iarsli. giveil (`15 utturetl by inc, au~l ~vhich c(ilivey aii in(`oirect idea of wli'lt I sai~J to lilin.  I told him that I did ilot renieti)~)Ci' di~tiiictly the ficts  il~out the cattle  that iny- illiliression was tilit
tiieie were  ix iiiStC('id of eight, aiid two of tileill it least were ve;ii'liii's. aiid h(')(l hot becii i'ci't'ived ~`rou~ the coiiti'actor  a~id this iil(lCfInite ~~tateiiieiit Priife~sor?\I'irsh tortures iii to his I)ositi~ C stateliie~i1
which I coil ected twice  oiiee iii llleseilce of bisilol) II are, ~`hen I ac~n~~d hiiu of lIt) ~ Ci tiil~ ills ~~ t)i d~. ~ et. ~fftr this toiie& tit)il, lie l)iiblishes this licol lect stateillelit (`i5 juote~l ii'()l1,~ inc.  ()ii 1115' retui'u to tlie
agency I f~~u ii (I the ~aets as tollov 5  1~ 0 Ol tlie eight (`(`ittlC reteired to
bv I~i (~t'es~or ~I('ii'51) w el-c n~ileli to`vs, oil e of t hein beloii ~~Iil _ to ~Ir.
J~eel - living- near kSheyeiiiie, tlie other a cow which tlie 1icr~lers lia~1
nilil-ed (`ill sllinilier, (`111(1 tlie renl'iiiliiig six were a i)ai't of tiie thirteen
bead ~ iiicli I hid i'ejected aiid wlii~'li, iiistead of beiiig tak~ii as asual,
ont of tlie corral by tlie lilIJil ii 5. ha~J goile to tlie ralige ~` itli tlie her~I.
~oine of these cattle were killed oil the rilige as was tlie Cl SC with tlie
inlich-cows but ilolie of tlieiii were iSSil C(l to the Indli us as    beef~ as I
have never issncd <`illy sn~'li c;ittle to tlieiii.
~s before stated by nle nii~ler the head of charge first, tlie issue repi-esented 011 the (lb~ti it t  0l)I~05ltC the date  ~)t tiie ~tli to tlie lotli
should be opposite tlie d('itC5 of tlie 1st to tlie 7tli  tlie issue there
i'epresented haviiig  takeii lil'iYe  ()I1  tlie  2tl  of No~'en~l;e~'.,`15  l~ 
~S3
shown by n~y books; the cattle which appear on the papers as rernaii~ing on hiUd being a portion of those which had lefI the ht~rd, as reported
~eI)tenibei 2S, and which had not yet beeii retnriied by the conti~actor.
The reason that they were carried forward oil tiie ~)a~)ers was that it had
not yet been satisfactorily settled that they liad retnined to the conti';ictors her~, and I carried the~ on iny p~ipers until this shonid be dettrniine~l atid the cattle r~tnrned.
CllARC+E ~~.-fui'k ~~~i(((i (~t tIl( ((~Cfl(.~.
Prof~ssor ~1arsh says tlie lli~tliod euij~loyed iii disti'ibutiiig thi.~
articI~ to the Iii{lians was ch;iracte~istic of tlie management of aflairs (`it
tlii a0en(-y.   The bairels of pork were rolled out of the warehonse l)v
o!ie of the einploy(5, the he~i(l of tlie bairels kiiocked in with an axe
<`iii~l the coiiteiits turned upon the grouiid. The i)ieces of pork were theii
given to the Iiidians, who were waiting for it,. without being weighed or
.`tny other measures beiiig takeii to insure a jn.~t distribntioii."  This is
a t~'iir sample of the willtnl niisstatements thi~~tighout all these charges.
t~rofessor ~Iarsh saw one barrel of iiork rolled out to a baud which was
large eiiough to receive two hundred pounds. ~)y their icquest tlie bairel was kiiocked open, and they distributed it`i~1Oii  tlieiiiselves.  All
tlie rest of the pork was issued ijiside the warehouse, through aii o~)eniIIg
into another room into which the Indiaiis coiiie to receive rations. As Professor~Iarsh had all opportunity of goiiig iiito tlie warehouse and seeilig
the issue, I therefore characterize this statement, so far as it reliresents it as being the ns~aI iiianiier iii which poi~k was issued, as, to say tlie
least, negligeiitly incorrect.  The pork was sweet and good, but was
prime mess-tiork,, coiiiposed4' of stioulders aii~l sides cut Lii) and put in
together.  As the Iiidiaiis use pork niaiiily for tlie gre;Lse, aiid did not
understand how to cook this kind of pork, they cnt oil' the fat aiid threw
tlie lean away.  As soon as I aseertaiiied this I stopped the issue, and
rei~orted the fact to tlie Commissioner of In~tian Atlairs. Subseqi;tently,
~`hen the Iiidians learned ho~' to cook tlie poik, they sought it ~~ith
a~~i~{ity, and used it (`ill up. In regard to this, I refer to my report to the
C'oniinissioiier of Iiidian Afl'iirs nn~ler d('itC ()f November 13 aiid I)eceiiiher, I~74.  In these reliolts, it will hL ~& cii that tli~ ieiso1i~given f()i
the I)ork being unfit for tlie use of tlie Iiidi'iiis is be&';iiise it is lC('iiI,aiid
iiot because the pork is of bid quality.
~I.  Flont ~~i(ed  (it tit(  (Qq(  ((Ji.
In regard to this, I have t() say that tlie floni', with a few exceptioiis
~`i5 put u p in don ble sack, ai d tqii~il to the saiiil}le Ul)() n w liich tlie
iloiir was purchased.  I wilt say that there wis a hart of the hour iii
the warehouse without the inspector's br5iiid, tlie i'easoiis for which I
~i~ e in the            with tlie ~ omiiiissioiier of Iii~lian Aillirs, anil,
correstiondeiice
in explana{ion, I will give the reasoiis iii dCt('i~l
Iii      coilsequelice of tlie
iI)piO~)iiations not having been made until the last ot the session ()t
(Woiigress, the contracts could not be filled or con~nienced uiitil about
the 1st of _~u~~ust.  ~(eing out of flour at tlie agelicy, I notifi~~d the colitrictors to ininiediately deliver fli~iir, and on that notice flour was sejit
iii by the contractor which had atreidy beeii iniIiufaCtiired, lie not liaviiig tinie to nilke the flour a ii d inaik it as required  that no iiisl)ector
~ as (`il)IiO~iitCLi to iiispect it; aiid I was iiisti'ncted by the Coiiiiiiissioiier
t ~ kee1 5;iml)le:s. of tlie tlotii' whii'h should be selit to tlie ageii((y for inS`)CCtiOii', (`111(1. it e~jii('il t(? tlie saiiitilc te ~ie seiit troni ~ ew ~ ork, tilit I 
384
should receipt for the floui'.  Under this ~ress of circuinstances I ordered
the flour to be sent to the a~eiicy, altho~igli it did not coiii~~ly with tlje
i)articular clause relati'ig to the marks ()11 tlie sacks, believing that the
exigencies of the case justified me in so ~oiiig.  I deiiy that aiiy considable portion of the flour was infrnor to tlie sample, and for the evidence
of which I refer to I. N\T Freiich, ~V. L. Coakley, inspector, and to
others at the agenQv who had the handling aii~i issuing of the flour.  I
also refer to I. ~~. French as evidence that Dr. Irwiii, agent for the
~hoshone Indians, said that the flour was good enough tor him and his
Indians aiid I further state that I was iiot at ~heyenne at the time Dr.
Irwin was there.  I also deny that I told Professor ~Iarsh, at any time,
that any of the flour inpected by Barclay NN~hite was "rery poor," but
I stated that some of it was, in my opinion, in grade below that of the
sample.  I further stated that the flour was g~~od in q~c~Uty.
In explanatiou of the fact that flour was shipped to the Red Cloud
agency without inspection, by ~Ir. (?oakley, I will state that, the flour
haviiig beeii received at the warehouse with tlie braiid of a regular inspector upon it, the store~keeper inferred that that insl)ection was sufficient, and therefore forwau~ed a portion of this flour, thus inspected, to
the agency; that subsequently aii order came from Assistant Secretary
Cowel, that this flour shoul~l be re-insl~ected by ~Ir. Coakley, and all
flour shipped to the ageilcy after the receipt of that order was inspected
by ~Ir. Co~ikley.  Before I received iiotice of tlie order for the flour to
be re-insl~ected the greater portion of tlie flour iiispected by Barclay
~Vhite, aii~l which had not beeu inspected by ~Ir. Coakley, had beei~
issi~ed to tlie Indians.  Upon an examination of that iii tlie warehouse,
I foiiiid the proportioii of that which I considered inferior t() the samp~le
was so inconsiderable that I did not deem it iccessary to report upon it.
CHARGE VII.-Sugar and coffee.
I will say that the sugar and coffee issue~l at the Red Cloud agency
was a fair article of brown sugar and Rio coflee, samples of which I will
present to the comniissioii, aiid verify them hy the evidence of the emplQy~5 at the agency, aiid others about the agency.
CHARGE VIII.- Tobacco.
I will say that I kiiow nothing about the quality or value of tobacco.
There are now in the warehouse s'~mples of every lot of tobacco that
has beeii issued since I took charge of this agency, which I will l)resent
to the commission, that they niay form their own conclusioiis.
CHARGE IX.-~~nffcring Qf tltc Indians dnring tI~c past ~cit~tcr.
That there was some sufferiiig ainoi)g the Indians at this agency last
wiliter is not ~lenied.  Tlie wii~ter was excessively cold, and the amount
of clothing distributed to tlie Iii{liaiis was not ii~ore than half enough
for the nuii~ber that were here to receive it.  The amount of supplies,
with the exceptioii of beef, was iiot suficient.  Tlie ~~`i5O~5 for this
short supply are mainly attributable to the iiifliience of such nied~llers
as those who bring these charges.  They are filling tlie ncws~~apers with
such assertions as that contaiiied in charge 2, that there were but 8,400
l)eople at tlie age 10 cy, when by actual couiit there are showii to have
been over 12,000 peolole here.  This constant cry of over~estiinate of the
iiumbers, aud fraud, &c., has had the effect to cause Congress to reduce 
tlie`1t)1)rOi)ri~t~O~S for tlie s~st~ii~inc'c of tli'  fii~1i;tiis, ~v1ii I~ froii~ tlie
~I(?stFH~tiOII of' g;1!ile, tlie nui~1~~r of f;I~1iJI)s t() b~ f~~~ (`~I1(I CIOtIL~(I is iiiQre~s1IY- every yeir.  Uiiless ~()H~r(?Ss S~1I)t)IiCS tite defirieItQy tli st inc'
thing ~vi1I occur iiext ~viiitcr  for tite n{itouiit of s1~pI)}iCS ilO\V I)I1rc}t('tSC~1
N\~ill itot t)e suflicietit to feed the ituinber of II1(liJIlS ~vhic1i (`lUC 1)()\V ~nd
~~iII }~c nt the J'gertcy luring tlte ~viiiter loiiger tltait until tite 1(1St of
arisii~~ froiti thi~
I:ehruary.  Yiiother serious evil                 is tlie i)laii of ttiese
pcrs()11s to teach the Indians thit tite ~vaiit of supplies is due to tite disliotiesty of the agent, causing them to become discoitteuted, aiit~ ~lcstroy
tlic itititience of tlie agei~t, ho~vever hoitestly exerte~I, au~l tlicrei~y ~~cfeat
tlic i)uri)oses of the policy of tC'lchillg the Ilididils t() becoitic st~'lf-supl)()1~t iii
t li~ve confined ii~y ans~ver to such portiolis of these cli'trgcs`is are
lircut aiid s}~ecific.  Tiie greater l)ortii~ii )t~ tliciii beiiig`ISSu!i)j)tio!15 aiid
iliturelices, ~`hicli ~`ere cvi~Ieiitly ititetideil for I)Iil)lic'ttii)Ii t() iiitiiieiice
i~nblic 0J)iI1i0I1~ aiti' I do itot dcc in it iiC('CSS'i~~ t() rcl)ly to them  iii this
(~oi) ii~ction.
I liere~vith submit my ofi~cial reports`titil letters l~e'triii  iij)()it tite
various subjects referreil to, ait~l tlie eviilcii~e of lisiiitcrcstetl IterSons
~vho are most familiar with tlie fi-icts.
~~ery respeettuily your Ol)e(liciit SCrv'titt
j. J. S&~N~II~l~I,
C~)iitC(1 ~t~(ICS Itidia~i  1 gent, 1~c~1 C1()i(( I  l!ie)?('y.
Tlie lion. BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS
To Itirestigate tft}~its at j~)(~ Cloud tycticy.
RED CLOUD AGENCY, NEBRASKA,
iitursdaji, Ai~gt~st 12, 1S75.
Present: liOl). TllOMAS C. I?LETCllER, chairn~an; Prof. GEORGE N\'.
ATIlISITON, lion. ClIARLES J. FAULKNER, aiid lion. 1). ~~ IlAiRIS.
TESTI~ONY OF DR. J. J. SAY~LLE.
By tlie CllAIRMAN:
Questioii. Doctor, I find tliat ii) these charges of Professor ~fansli it
is stated that you reported as havitig issneil beef on tlie ~tli of Novein~)cr ~`lieu in fact it was not issued until the 14th of November.  You
exl~laiii that in your stateinei~t by sayilig that the return was niade
111)1)11 a blank- furnished for that purpose and tite error occurreti ii) puttilig down the issue opl)osite the wrolig date.  No~, did you have any
beef on hanil upon tite Stil November?
Aiiswer. Notie here at tlie ageitey.
~t~ I )id yo~t itot have on l~and then some S beef-cattle?
There were S beef-cattle 01) the range.  You will see that my book
~~li()ws that there were oli haiid oil the 1st october 275 cattle.  These
" crc cattle which, as I have said iii iny report to tite Det)artii~eiit, lild
lt'ft tite a~eucy herd aiid returited to tlie coittractor's herils, aiid they
~ i~i'e cii'rie~l fl~rward on the papers as on 1iai~d.  The iiieii ~v Ci C out
.~i'(Li'('li~ii  for tlieiii, aii~l I carried them  forw;ir~l as oil liaiit~.  (lii tlie
N~~i~veiiiber, I made tite last issue before we conitted the Iii liaiis.
;\li. l~o~lei 11(1(1 l)rt)u~lit here 150 of those cattle ~v1iicli hail esca~)~ (I.  I
i~5iictl ti) tite lilditus about 1:37 of those.  There were I') lie-id of hhose
25 I F 
USC
(~~ t t 1~   i(~I1 I F(~jL('t~(l.  I 1~'~( I ~1~)~ ~N~tt F~(~(~~ {(~(1!()1 t~i~ S~~(~()I)(I (I(~li~~~~r\
()I (`~ttI( t~) tIt <`),~(1)(y ill ~~)~~I~11~~I.  ThIr. 1~~~~1~r NV:tS 1)()t I1(~1t~ <`~I1(1 it
I!:()t ti~l:'~t~i`~(I 1111rjj tlit 1I)~(1{{I~ {)t ~()~`{~1))1)~1'.   ~t tI~tt f~tI!(: tlI(I'(
~V&'~J(  I~(1 ~ tI'( i~~ 1)~~)(1 ~~ 1~j(11 I t()I(I 111!1) t  i~{)t1I(1 r~'j~~~~, (tII'1  11)O11~
t1lt~!~ ~~ (~I  f()i1t' (`f ti)()S~ ~~ii tI~~ i~1)~~.`1\Vt) ~)t. tIiQ(11 ~Y~r~ ~~u<qi~Iii~~s,
~V1)i(~iI f b("&(l I1()t (~J-HI)t&(l (`it (`tIl 1jt~{'{tr~.  TIi~su four`I1)~1 sO!i1( t~t1i~is tli'~t
1~qtI ~t~}~~ ~tv~r I I'('j't'CtCtI.;~iit1 1~ft t1i~ ii~tfr('r t1~~re iiiitil 3\I r. I,osler
~IAt)'! (1 (Jt)!)1~;t~~ti s~'tt1~ it, st) tli(')t I st~ll 1i'~t1 5()1I)() t)10 Ii;iiitl, 1-)t~t t1ie~
~Vt~1'~ I~f)t lit'i'&.?\Ii'. I~~~~1ur r~ti~r~ctI tbt' 1 7j() in Nt~~~ein})~r.
~? N~t)1i 111`~tI~ (`II) is~n~ ()f 1)Ut~f ~Itoi~t tllQ ti ~t)~~Q!1~ lj~r?
\. V&'s. sir.
~? ~~Iitii yon issueti`it tilit tiin~`(ill tlie beef you hitl oii Ii'ti~tl except
son~e l;~ bC('~tl of euttle ~`hieh you lta4 reected?
~. %es, sir.
~? Tlieii \vhen did yon receive aiiy other l~~~r
~. ~lie iiext 1 received ~v'as oil the 14th Noveiiiher.
~?  St) t1i('~t bet~veen the Ld and tlie 14th Noven~ber tiie only c'tttle oil
land ~`ere those rejected cattle`~
A. Yes, sir.
~L~ It`vas about tlie L~d Novcii)l)er that yoii be~'tit to make your
eflorts to cii i~inera c tite Indians.
A. Yes. sir.
~? You <~~~t that eiiuineration coi~p1eted about the 14tl~ ~
& Yes, sir  I think oil the 12th.
(? Your i'e~ular issuc~day would have been oil the 5th?
A. Yes. sir.
~? Now. as you f;iil~d to issue oil tli'tt d'ty, you issued oii tlie 15th.
Diii you thou nial~e the issue for seveit or for fourteeii d('I~'5
A. I iiiade tlie issue of l)eef to cover the whole tin~e, btit all other
ratioiis I did iiot.  By special agreeii)eiit with tlic Iii(Iians, that they
wotiltt quietly sul~n~it to 1)0 conilted aiid ~et their ticl~ets, I iiiatlc tlie
issiie of beef to cover the whole time.
(~.but the other ratiolis you did iiot
A. No, sir.
~? From  that there was olie issue of rations which tlie Iiidi'iiis lost
by refusing to be couiited
k Yes, sir.
().~\~ho n~ade this eniin~eratioit for you?
A. I~art 1 did n~yself, anil hart was doite by ein~tloyt"s.  NN~e liad three
or ibur diil'ereiit 1)0151)115 couiitiiig ~hc c'iiiips.
(~.Notv, iii regard to tlie Northern Iiidians which weic ii ore at tlie
tiiiie of the issue of aiinuity  (JOlts  what iii~aiis did you h'tve of
kiiowing what their nuinl~ers were
A. I had iloile, oiily the statenieiit of tlie Iiidi'tiis tlieniselves: aii~1
so tar as the~ wcic coucertied they \v crc ilot takeii into acco uiit ill the
jssue of annuity goods.
(~.You issued 110 aitiiuity goods to the Northern Iiidjaiis?
Y ~o, 1)01)0 excel)t to such as canie iii and were con iited.  So 11)0 did
coiiie iii ai~d were couiited.
P~y Mr. ATllLRToN
Q. Did you consider y ourselt bound to lur iiisli these Nor t bern Iiidians, if they cai~e in, with sji~~lies as well as tlie otlit'rs'
A. 0nly under instruction.~ Itoin tlie Depar tnient.  I liatl iiistr nctioi~s
~roiii the Departiiieiit to issue rations to all the Intlitus th;it would
conic in to be enunicrated. 
u~S7
(~.~nd ~ni~i~ity goods, to~?
A. Ye~, ~ii~.
by the CllAi~M4N:
(~.N()\v. iii r~g~rd to the fl~1I~1h(I (){ tlie~e X~,~tlieu~i fIi(1~('~i1S ~vho were
teiii I)Or'iI'il'v iier~ last XO~~CIIII)C1 o~ I)~c~!II bui', (~id tlie iii!~~iiii;itinii \vllieli
yoii ii;id is to their number ~o1I~e troiii t1ieu~ or froni tlie I'i~ii~iis re~i4iiig;ilji~ut the agency ~
~. I"r{~iu the Indiai~s living about here.  Tlie stateiue'it w~is iiiade to
nie l~y Sittii~g Bnll, Face, ai~{l S~vord, ~ iii' a I) iuiber of' oti~ers.
().hive yon any i~iforiii~ition tl)('it`1 l'1r~C pirt of these Xortherii In4i~iis l1'i~C iiever been to this`i~C11~~ (~t all
A. Yes; from that stateriieut of' the Iiidiaiis.  I can only get it fiom
their statement.  From all tl~e dill'ereiit stori~s that have been told I
hive CO!10C to the concinsion that there is a considerable nni~bcr who
hive never been to the agency at all.
(? Have yon at any time been iiiforiued of' any impropriety of conduct oii tlie part of your cleiks and eni}~loy~s`ibont the`igency toward
the Iiidians here during last winter (`~i1(l fall
A. Yes.
~~. Iiave you taken ally means to coirect those improprieties`?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you kno~~ II of any of your eu~j~loyt's beiiig drniik?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you discharge them?
A. Yes, sir; as a genentl thing.  Oiice in a while a man whom we
cannot get along without will get drunl~, aiid still I have to keep hirn.
One of tlie difficulties of getting aloiig here is that men will get on a
spree now and then,and we caiiiiot disetiarge theni because we caiinot
get others to fill their places.
(~.flave you ever kiiown any of your eiii~~loy(5s to be drunk while
they were engaged in issuilIg goods or rations ~
A. No, sir.
Q. ~Vere you ever itiforuied of such beiiig the fact?
A. Never, until I saw it stated in the papers.
Q. Did Professor Thlarsh ever state to you th~it any of your employt5s
were drunk while they were issuillO  A. No, sir; he did not.       goods
(~.Do you know of any of your employ~s, while they were issuing
goods or rations, endeavoring to eli tice s(Jua\vs iii to tlie warehouse
A. N'o, sir.
(~.Did any one ever complaiii to you al~out it
A. Yes, sir; Red Cloud made a coiuplaiiit of the matter.  He corn i)lained to me that the store-kel)er, ~Ir. ~Ici3ratiiey, was stealiiig.  I
ilivestigated the matter irnmediately, anil foiiiid that he had giveli some
~~L0gar to a squaw.  I do not know tllit it was for the purpose of entic iii  tier.  The only reason he gave was ~iin~~ly tl~at some of their frieiids
li'~(l co~ue to live on the old women, and it was not uiiusual for nie to give
tli~iii an extra amount of coffee and su~'ar to meet tlie exl~eiiditure
Jiecessary to feed the people visitilig theill.  It was not aii ui~usual
tliiiig, except that it was in the evenilig iiistead of duriiig tlie d'ly.  I
`&li(~[i I~ued an order that no one sLould go iiito tlie warehouse after
tlii'k ujiless I was present.
~t~- Il;Lve you eliforced that order st'ictly silice?
A. Yes, sir.  I have not known it te be violited.
(~.Now, Doctor, in regard to tlie sy.' teiii of issuiiig rations and annu 
itN ~`{~(~(}~, 1)I~('~SQ exi)1<iii~ 1I()\V t1~(1 t is (l{)1)e.  For iII5t<~11(~  i ri t1i~ i~si~e
of (`II11~11~t~ ~()O(is  JIO\V tlo ~()U 4~~1iv~r tliuin to t1i~ Iii~ii;~ii~
~.  Fii'~t, tlie I1~(}i~I)s ni;~ke ~1I) tlie 11 1jUl 1~l&F of 1)~'1i'ti~5 ~vIii~1i 511(111 r()c~iv~ t1i~ oo4s.  I t'~ke do~vii irOlil tliQir tick~ts ~ list of;~1l thQ t;in~ilies N\~hich  ~vill (iI(~~V goo{ls ~vit1i  tli~ ji;iiile ()f ejeli h~~'i~li1i;iii.   TliC(N
~CIlCi~l}V b<'tve ~ h~('1l~fl~('~Ij iii ~`hose ii~ijie the goo~ls ~ie 4Y('t~Vj1 <qjj~j t()
~v1ioi~~ I ~leli~~er tlieii~.
(~. Is it at all pra~~ti~able to deliver t() each Ijjdiaii his go~~ds?
N.  It is liot.   Iii tlie piesej~t cojiditioji of ail~iirs alilolig these I ij~lians
it ~s ~~ttuilv iHlI~ossillle.
(~. No~v  as to th~ iSsUiflQ' of i~tiojis lio~v is that dl)i'~C?
~.  It is doije ij~ the saiiie ~~~y.   ~ list of the Iiidiaus is take~-the
taiiiilies aiitl iit~~iiber iii CIClI iaj~iily.  I give tlieu~ a ticket ~vliiclj cx~lrC55&5 011 its t('lCC tile ii HlUller ot i)c()I)le \vho (lr'1\v t1I)()1i it.  Iii 5011)C
cases sevei-al i;liiiilies are,j()iIle(l oli tlie oiie ticket.   The~ coiiie iii aii~I
lIleseilt tlie ti('ket aii~l receive their i;itioiis.
~?  Theii tiie l~~~a~linaii of tl~it I)arty- retailis t1~at ti(~l'-et?
~.  N~es, si I'.
(~. Iii  llreseflts tlie ticket
~.  ~(l   tlic sIjil' ~vs geiic1;ili~' (~Oi1iC iii`~ i tli the ticl~et, (`11111 t tie a iuouiit
~ liich that ticket CIllS for is lealt out to theui.  They tlieii take it out~ide 11111 gei~eially divide it auioiig then selves ii) froiit of tlie warehouse.
(~OiUC~~Ii~C5 they calry it to the cauip, but g~iicrally it is divitled iii front
of tlie ~-areliouse.
~? Iii the issue of pork last N~~veuibcr I~rofessor ~Iarsli 5t(itC5 tljat   the
b;iirels of pork were rolled otit of tlie warehouse by olie ~)f tlie`igeney
eii~~~loy&'s, tlie hca~ls of tlie birrels kiiockcd ii) ~`it1i aii ax, aiid tlie cojitClltS tuiiied nllo1~ tlie ~`rai~jiil   Tlie 1)iCCC5 of 11011  weic tlieii   ive;i to
tlie Iii~li'iiis, who were wait   arouii~l, without l)eifi   wciglie{1  ir aiiy
other iiieaiis adolited  to iii~ure a just distiibutiou.'  Now how was
that?
~.  There was oi~e band aiid I thiiik 110 lilore, rolle(l out to Little
N\~o~iiid's ~)arty, \Yliicli was lirge ciiough to receive 200 pOUIi(15 of pork.
The l~arrel was rolled out, aiid the Iiidiaiis cut tlic barrel ol)e!i, aiid
divided tlic pork au~ong themselves.:~ll the rest of it was issucil r~gulaily through tlie store-rooui.
Q.  Now, i)octor, bow were tlie Iiidiaus caiiipcd around here with refereiiec to the s~tnatiou of the agency?
N  They w{re can}~y~l iii several camps oii ~~~liite Piver, cxteiitliiig
4o~ ii ~bout 0 n~~les iioin tide.   A poition ot them`V crc eaiiii)ed over
iicar (fiow Butte, al~out 7 iiiilcs ill  aiiotlier dircctioii.   Aiiother lirge
camp was ahout 7 miles ~1l) Little ~~ hite (Dl;ty ~?reek. tow ar~l tlic s~~utIi.
Another camp was ~I) above oil N\~liite~1)~iver, I do iiot kill 1'v how tir`iii~l
then there were a great nl<iiiy little eliilps aroiiiid iii ~liIlerciit l)l;ices
scittered all arouiiil-soiiic ~listaiiee from   Ii~~re.   That`viS J~cfore we
COtil ii~eiiceil to eouiit  liCill.   At tlie t ilile of eouiitiii g, tI icy- 1ia~I  iUl1~Ct I -
iii ~C'iiC~ the agelicy  but were still soilic   or ~ i~ii1es (liStlilt  I`visII('d
theiii all to iiiove t~~w'ir~l tlic igeiley, J)iit they- sai~l they- l~1)iilll ilot kc(~11
their 111)1 C~ it they ~~ ci c canil~eil clo~c t~1ge tliei; aii~l they 11(111 to be
scattered in diflerent call lIs.
1~. 1)1) the I ii~li;~iis tie tile iitly 11 iii0~ ~ tlie ir lo(l~( 5 aii~l   li(lii~~ tli( 11
cailills
A. Yes, sii'.
(2  Is it ilOt a a~'t t hit tlIe iiiiii~l~cr of Iii~Iiaiis I ri " iii 5111)111 iCS fron~
thisa~cii~y i~ 1 ii~ rc~i~ii~  1)5 tiie coilling in ot the ~ or ther ii Iii~Iians?
A.  Yes, sir  that is tlic i;ict. 
3S9
Q.  Puofess~r:\farsli states t11~~t he ~~S prQs)!it oi~ the fllorIliHg ~r tlie
14th November  that while he ~vis heic, a lot ot s()VCt'~t Iiundre~t head
of T~xas ~attle were brought lieFe (`tild`~ekf~1)t(~d l~y yoil, aiid reeeij~ted
for. ~~ut tli~~ you only ~~eighed (`I ~)Ji~~O1I of tliu li~~~l. N\~i~~t do you S~~
to tli('it
~. I w~~i ~lie(i all of it. 1 )elieved every la~t ()IIQ ()f tIi~i~e v~~ \v(~i~'l1ed
`t tliei'e miv have heeii a ~~os~il~ility ()f Olle (~I t\v()  ettiii~ tlir~iugh.,
(I V~)I1 S(I\' them get thron~li vestt~r~l<iy.
(~. I!t)\v di(i those cattle voi~ i'~e(~ived (`it tli'it ~i ii~C COIl) 1)1 iC with tlie
{`i~tle we siw yester~iay?
&.  They were a very sin~il'ir l()t ()f ~`attle.
~? NN'ere they os large as tlie eattl~`Ye siw yester~l'iy
~. N()t mite, 1 tliiiik.
?. N\~ere there not aiiioiig tlieiii SOIl) C yearliiig: aii~l s~'uiil~tiy C(ittlC
\\ l)')t`ire kiiown as  scal;i~~';i''s
~. N~es  two or three or four 0!' iivC.  [ took 110 liote of tlie:n. T[iere
~V('r(' several, thongli.
~? NVere they weighed and coni~ted?
~. No, sir.  ~1y iiiemory does iiot serve Ill  as to tlie iii~~iiber, but
these yearliiigs aiid calves tli'it weiit tlir()i1~'h tlie.sQ';iles were dedueted
tuoiii tlie weight.
(~.Ilow is it possihie to (leillict tlieiii fro;ii tlie weight
A. By estimating their weight.
Q. Do you estimate their weight se~~arately, a~it1 (lC(1Ilct it from tlie
aggregate weight of the whole lot wliieh 11(15 beei~`veiglieil, or do you
estiiiiate their weight at the u verage`vC~(~'Iit of tiie other cattle?
A. 1 generally make an CSt~!l0('ltC of the weight aiiil deduet it froin the
whole amount.
By ~Ir. FAULKNL'R:
(~.liave you aI)y accouiit or eli try iii writing tli'it woulil show the fact
t)f si!ch deduction ~
A. 1 have not.  I am usually iii tlie habit of takiiig ilo note of them
(`it the time.  The Indians usually t('ikC the'u oiit of tlie herd aiid I take
110 accouiit of them
C~. N~~ere these cattle thiii aiid iio~r at that tiniC?
A. No, sir.
(~.~Vell, is it usual for cattle at tliut seaso~l of tlie ye'ir to b~ poor
A. No, sir.  It is just the time of year thit they tie iii tlie best coil (litiOli, that they are heaviest.
(~.Now, Doctor, I want to inquire of you ab'~ut s):ne otlicr in;itters.
Yoit wer~ sometimes out of sui)tilies hei'e`~
A. Yes, sir.
~? ~Vl1ose fault was that ~
A. TIie fliult was in the fiCt that we did iiot have supl)l Cs eiiougli
t'iiriii~lie~l  that the amount of supplie~ tturehasetl for tlie Iiidiaiis was
ii~eit 111) iii the fore part of the year.  There were so maiiy more Iudiaus
lit're tlieii thaii were estimated for, that the sup~tlies were used u~) be!ttre tlie latter part of the winter, aiitl we got out of stipplies because
tlit'y wt~re iiiadeqnate
~~ \`~e~ you out of supplies at aiiy time 0! aee~uiit i)f the f'iilnre of
tit. (`t)iitract~~r to move theu~ here?
.~. 111 l~ebrui~y, during that eold spell, tlit're were two tr'iiiis whieli
\`.t'rt l.').Ltlt~il,.`iiiil which ~rOt Itart i)f the way through wlieii their i"~ttle
~t.Liii l}t~tlt'(l iii.1 storm, and tlie traiti l'ti(l there I)erll'iI)s a iil()ilth.  Those
I`~!iS were loitled with con). 
a~9O
Q. ~~O yofl kno~v w1iei~ tI ~t corn liad 1~ccii ~oiitrjctcd f~~r
~. I c;~uiiot S~~ jti~t I1o\v ~vit1iotit refcrriii.Q to t)it books, ~1ict1icr it
~~s flie first COfltr~Ct or tlic coiitrnct f()r tlie (?licycnl)es ~iid ~Ift~('~1IOQS.
(? Do you know bow loii; th(~t C()Fl) 1i~iI i)CCIl ~t Q'neyeiiiie
k. No sir  not ~~ithout referring to tlie ~)o()ks.
(?  ~re the supplies ofteii de~<'iyed (`it (?heyeiiiie for tlie w'~iit of`ililiS portation hither~
A. No. sir: I t1~ink not.
~).Doii~t you know t{i'it there are over twei~ty car~Ioa{ls of your frci~iit
}yiiig there 110w (`111(1 1i'~vc beci there for over a iiioiitli?
A. Yes, sir  as a niatter of fact iiow it is 1)11t it has iiot 1)CCii so otteii
not on a~'coI1i1t of wint of traiisport;itioii to these places, hut oli;ic~'i)iiiit
of tlie charges oli tlic frei~'lit iii the cars.
(?.N~~Iiat is nicant by the want of traiisport;itioii is tiie fliilnre t() li;iv
the in traiisI~i)rte(l?  I refer to tlie fact whether )r iiot you ~`ere iii waiit
of supplies here because tlie contractor liad failed t() do liis duty iii get tin~ tlieni to y()u in l)i'opUr t n~e.
A. Iii this case it is so.  A year ago I cointilaiiicd to tlic Dcpartnieiit
of ~rr. ~fc(?aiiii f(~r liis failure to get siilii)lies here fist eiii~ugli, but oil
exaniiiiatioii of his contract I found that be was only rcquire(l to ile liver a certain an~onnt withiii certaiii periods of tiiiie, aiid so far lie ful filled lijs coiitract aiid tlie goods were traiisported iuin~ediately.
(~ ~)o vou know whether liis ColitriCt for transportilig suptilics here
no~- ~1)e(-ifie5 that he shall transl)ort within certaiii periods
A. It does not.
(t~ Do you know tlie reasoii why tlie ailanity-goofIs did n'~t`~~~~~~C here
until Noveiiiber?
A. I liiiow oiily froiii geiieral iiiforiiiatioii.  I will say that tlie al)l)ro priations were niade so late iii the season tli'it tlie contricts conlil iiot
be let until August, but why they were delayed oil their arrival at (Dliey enlie uiitil tlie`~oth Se jitein tier I do iiot kiio'v.  The first goods ar rived at Cheyenne oil tlie -~()th Setitenil)er, aiid they tC~CliC(l here iii Octo ber.  Tlie ~C'i50~ why they were iiot delivered tijl October was iii <`iccord ance with a request I niade to tlie Coin~uissioiicr to withholil them iiiitil
-tlie Iiidians were counted iii order to give the correct nuiiiber.
fy ~lr. ATllLRTON:
Q. I)i(l you n~ake any con~plaint to the Departineilt of tlie failure to
have the coiitracts filled earlier?
A. ~o, s~r.  I receiveit a letter from  tlie C oii0Ii~issio1ier of Iiidiaii
Ail'airs askiii~ n~e what time would be tlie beSt to deliver aiiiiiiity go~iils
to tlie Indians, aiid I aiisw CI-C(l between tlie 1st aiid t~)tli of <~epte iii ii'r
was the best time to deliver theni to tlie Iiidians.
P~y tlie CllAInTht~~
Q. Now. Doctoi', have ~ou ever been from here to Sidiiey
A. No, sir.
().~ on know the fact th(~t the rraders are gettjug their goo{ls li t e
way of Sidney                                             V
A. Yes, sir.
~? Is it liot ~iretty well iili(leI stooil here that that is a slioi'ter aiiil bet ter road tliaii tlie r&iail to ~lieyeniie?
A. It is a shorter. lint I 10 i\ot uiiderstanil that it is a tie~ter, road.
~~ cli, could n~~t y our Indian sutitilies be trail stiorteil fr~iin ~iiliiev
heic cheatier than fron~ Cheveiiiie here
A. I do not know. 
39~
~? You l0cver juvestigated that subject
\. N(), sir.
T)y ~Ii. 11APR15
(~. I fiud i)y your books that yonr had o'i liai~d Xovein'~er 1 ISI, ~97~
lica~l of cattle: that on the secoiid day of that fll()Iitlt yoa i.SSuC~~ ~))5%)
liea~i  tl1(~t oij the 7th yoti butchered t'vo liea~l ii~akiii~' a t()t(il ~f:;S7
lIe~I(1 i~siicd. aiid lea~ing eight head of cattle oli liaiiil.  Is t!i~it (~{)r      yoii iin4erstand it?  Is that aceori1i~i _ to y{)nr recollectioii
~. 1 tliiiik there ~liould be tliirteeii.
~? Yi~iir ~)()ok does iiot sho~ any issue of cattle oli tlie Atli ~
~. N().
~? N\~ill yoil i1o~v explaiii how you nade a return of tlie issue of o~S7
lit~'iil ~f c~ittle as of the 8th of Noven~ber`vheii 110 such issue too! 1)1(1 CC
()!l tli;it (l<i~
~.~`lie`tii~ouiit Oiil)Osite tlie Stli iiicltides all tlie cattle issne(1 ~~on~
lie 1 ~t t() tlie Stij.  ~ly l)()ok slio~~s that on tlie second day of Noveiner I s~i1C(l:~77 head in oiie lot, aiid on the saiile day to ditlei'eiit l)eri}ti.~ eight lit'ad  that oil tlie 7tli day I butchered two cattle.  I hId oil
11111(1 utter that only thirteen head of cattle.
~? N()'v I ~vant to go back to tl~e stami)e(1e.  Your 1)00k shows that oii
ilie 1st October, 1874, you should have h(~d 01) hand 278 lietil of cattle.
\\~iil yoi~ now state ~`hether or not before that tin~e the st'tiiipetle liad
takeji i)Iace
~~. Ye~, sir, it had.
(~. JIad you on hatid aiiy of these 278 head?
~.No, sir, not at that time.
(~.TIii~ represei)ts, as you uiiderstai~d it, the whole iiumber of the
tt!i1i)t~tletl cLttle ~
.~. Ye~ ~ir.
(~.tIo~~ II)~fly cittle diti ~Ir. P~osler return to you oil account of that
tiiii~tt'tle ~.
.~. ( ~IL tlie st~ttleiiieiit with lii~ii, iii tlie ini(ldle of November, lie returned
1.~ Iit';tti.
(~. ()f whit weight were those 150 beau ~
~. I tt~~k tiiern, calling them  tlie san~e average weigl~ t as tilOSe of
St~jt(t.iiit~vr 7, tlie 1<1st receive~l, tlie average beiiig 1,038 p{)tiiid5 e~ic}i.
~L~ ~ ~ee tli<'tt yoIi li<')ve entered in your book as lost 128 head, ~~liicli
`n:ikt<~ t!)e`27$ head of cattle ~~1iich were stanii)ede(i so tli'       wa~
~t there
;t 1(t.%~ ti~ tlit' Governuietit of 128 head of cattle ~
.~. Yt'~. <tir.
(~."~li:~t paitis tlitl you take to recover those 128 head?
.~. I liatl lk'('I) tr;lveliiig all over the couiitry.
(~.I }jtl yoii becoiiie satisfied iii what directioii those cattle`veiit
~. I lity wejit south of here, iiii~l oft on 8uake 1~iver.  I COtlill iiot
it~lI Jx),titi~e1y ~`here they weiit.  The presumption is tli;it tlie Iil(li<'iiis
I t ttt<:gi uiitl I'- Ileil tlieiii
~~. I tln~I, ()[i Io~~kiiig at your book, after tlie receipt of cittle oil tlie
ii) ~'<t~I)tt'in l)er, you slion Id Ii;tv e had oii hinti 1,003 held at tlie ageilcy
it lily tiiiie before or sitice have you liad iii your ciistotly so l'<ir~e
.1 iiiiiiittt<r ~
.~.Nti ~ir< I have not.  Tlie reason for reeeiviiig so iila!iy at that
" t~. tli<'tt ~I r. Bosler tlie t~0ntractt~r, l~a~1 that iluniljei' ()il li<iiiil
lit!i~itI tt)    () South ot the I)latte fi~r iiiore c<'tttle, aiid if I li'i'l hot
Iit'iii  It tIlit ti IilC I 5110111(1 lii ~~e b'~eii on t ol l)eei lie t~~r~ lie
tt`<`ick. 
(). Xo~v oil tlie T~t1i Xeveiiiber I s~e ~on issued.1? 1ie~d of ~itt1~.
~N~1i~ie dii tho~e C('ltt}C C()1Il( t~OI)l?
I ~ee tile book represeiit~ it ~5 of tile 11 tii, ~iie liii f('l(It. it s1iou~d
be )f the 14th.
().N()w, y our 1~ooi  ho\Ys tii~t ou t~ie ~4tii yo'i re~,eivet1 tOt lJC(~li of
C(~ttIC for which tiie ~VC~'~~C ~`~s l.()t:3 i~~)uii~1s C'i(~il.  I~ro~essor ~I('lI5h
~~ys iii his st~teineut,  T1li~ l()t N\;l~ lecept(~d ~iy tiie dpCllt (`~Ii{i receiptcii for, biit lie Oi)iy wei~1ic~i;~ i~(lrtioil of tlie llCt(l.  ~~hcse c~ttie I s;~~v
aud carefully exaIniiied.~'  N~~ho wcighcd these cattic
~. I weighed those iflysifl
~~. IIo~- lually did y()ii ~vei~Ii
A. I helievc I weigl~cd eVely o:~e of theii~-the`vliolc tUt 1ica~l.  I
eaii~iot sav positively th~tt I weighed every oiie of tIlelli, for there
litight have ilCell oiie or t\YO that`veIlt through with~at beiii g wei gli ed,
as they did yesterday: but I tl~ial I wcighe~t tlietii tIl.
Q. ~~~as I~rotessor ~Iarsh iltOseilt at the tii~ic of tl~cir wei lii ii g
A.  No sir.
Q.~Vas lie here?
~ Yc~ sir.
~?- Did yon ii ave ally coilvcrs'iti~~il at the tiiiie`yitli lii iii here iii regaid to the weight of these cattle?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do yon kuo~v of liis careflilly cxaniillillg these cattle?
Y I asked hiu~ to colue down with uc aud see tllelil i550C(l iii the
afternoon, after they liad beell weighed.
~).~\~hat conversation, if ally, did yoa have with llilll as to their
~vciglit or coiiditioii -?
A. Noiie whatever.
~t~ Did he say a~~ythiiig to you or to a~iy other lici-soil coiicei'Iiiug
then?
A.  No, sir.
(~.~Vas there ally con~plaiiit iiiade to you by any IlerSoli iii regard to
them ~
A.  No, sir.
~~. Do yon 110\V say that tiic cattle ~veiglied tllC ftill aiuoi~i~t for which
y on gave ~Ir. Bosler credit?
A. Ycs,sir.
Q. ~Vhat was the COil(Iitioll of those catt1~ as coii~pared with the cattle
that ~-cre issued yesterday iii o~ir ~~rcseiice?
A. I think they were very similar cattle. They ~cre iii good coiiilition.
~? So far as yon know were any of theni s~ck, or lan~e, ()F overdriveii?
~. They ha~1 beeii dri~-eii very hard. all of tilell), <`lli~i were tired.
~~~l~cther ally of then~ got dowii as soiiie did yesterday I ain not able
to say.
Q. \N~erc some of theu~ so tired that it would be diflicult to drive or
gO'l(l tlieui out of a wall?
A. I do not i-c lflClfl her ally such tliiiig liaviiig occnrre(l.  I did not see
ally c;~ttle so tired or we~ik, or ill 50 niisei-able a cou~1itioii, that the
Iiitliaiis eonl~1 hot goa{1 tilelil otit of a walk.
Q. I)id yon see ~I~jor I~~urt there that ai{eriioon?
A.  No s~r.
t?- ~~~as he ~~ith 1~rofessor ~Iarsb. so f)'~r as y~)u reineiiiber, when tlie
issue was Ina~le
A. I do not rerneiubcr.
~? Did you, at or about that tii~e., have ally conversatioli with hiin in
refereiice to those cattle? 
393
A. Lie WiS here at tlie ageliQy b'~t I did l)Ot have (`l!)~ such conversatioli with hin~.
~2 It is said that a lar~e ~un~l~er of rlie e~ft~e`vCjC of tite kiiid kno~-a
0 In otig eattle-iooeu as``sea 1a~v'I gs (010 d liot (`I 1C\V Wele Vi`11(1 decrepit.
N\~1iat is a " s~ala~ag ~
A " sC'~laWag`is a 5fll(~ll stuiited aIiii0~ii, Which does hot get fit
jir~1~~I~1y froiii sonic disease.
(? J)~ ~0'(i reiiienober of ~CC~!i _ stI(-li c;~t~l~ licre?
~. I (l() liot.
~? II; ve y()fl rece VC(~ sue ii?
~. N(), sir.  I~et me correct tliot.  I tliiiil 1)11 (If tilOAl I r~)e~~teil froiu
tli( lot reeeiveil oil that d'iy \vas a t\'~o-year-olil` seal<i~v'ig.'
~? i)oes it sometimes liapi~eii tli'it C(ittlC`vii iil hive beeii overdriveii
`1i( ~V(~'ik,;iii~I go (lowil ~
.~. Y~s sir.
(~.~if they soinetiiiies so`veal that it is li;ii'i~ t()`et theiio iloto a run
~. ~~~s, sir.  (Cattle wloicli are rio ii a geat dC('il (`hid get very tii-ed,
l)ee()iiie stuiiborii. aiotl.yoii c;iiiioot wIli1) theiii ilito a ruii.  I (`i(l liot see
su~'li (`ill occurreilee 010 that d;oy.
(?.~)ii tlie`~5th l)age of Professor ~Iarsh's 5t(~tCiflCiit lie soys: "Ageiit
Saville tIleil state~l that the poor condition of~tliese cattle`v;os o'viiog to
li;itil driving sonoc forty-eight hours with little grass or sleeli, to
hurry tlieiioi through, as the Indiaus had liad iio beLf t\~r s'~~ie time,
he having ke1)t back rations to induce them to l)C couiited.  These cattle
arrived in the lnorniiig, aiid lie weighed niost of tliciio tlie saiiie forenoon.
Sonie few that were wild he did loot weigh, biot estiiii;ited.  Tlie issne was
made oil tlie same aflernoon of the receil)t.  Anioiig the cattle then
weighed were forty or more siioall anil`scalawag' cattle.  Agent
Saville was confident that these cattle, thiio as they were, would weigh
S5() 1)011 lids on an average." Did yon iliake th(~it stateiiieiit
oil the 1st of Jione, 1575?, a snbstaiiee,
& ~Ye were having a C0uVCt5~iti0ii-~~%hop Ifare, Professor ~farsli
aiid niyself. Professor ~Iarsh said to B151101) Liare that ~fr. Boslcr
npologi~~ed to him for the poor condition of the cattle.  I spoke to hiin
explaining merely what ~Ir. Bosler probably iiieaiit to say, iliteilding to
iiI)l)ress [ipori him the idea that ~fr. Bosler was iiot apologiziiig t~~r tlie
cittle bciiig poor, but that they looked bad aiid ginilt for watit of
Water {lie hair fougli, &c.  I made 110 apol~~gy to hiiu for t}ic cattle.
(~.Did ~ on in i,nbstaiice, make that st;iteiiieiit  or what stateinejit
{lid you make?
A. I canliot give the exact words. Tlie substance of it was as I lo:ive
.iii~t 5t~ite(l.
(~.I)id you say the cattle "-ere in ~)oor eoiiditioii
A. No, sir.
Q. J)id yoii s;iy they looked b(~idl~?
A. N(), sir
~? J)i(l you say that hard diiviiig hail I~roduccd ~ll~ etlect u})oio tlie
~-;ittle ~
A. Not, exceilt ~~y inference in thit way, iii tlie ex}il;iiiitii1ii I gave of
whit.~Ir. BoSlei inteioded to say.         _        -~l lit  (~. 1)i(l y on say that they h;i~t to be driveii fopt~ — i~lit lioiors ~` ii 1
tle ~r;iss or water, ilo order to ~et tlieiii to tlie;ig-cli~y iii tiiiii
~.I (liii say that thcv had becii (11- ~-en   hard to briiig tlieiii to the
ii-y, t)ilt I di(l not state tlie time ~
~? l)id you say that Some t~\v were wilil, aiid y~~u coillIl hot`vei~h
tlieiii? 
TI1(~t N\~~S I  ~ii~i~1 (~X1?1.'I11('~t~()11`(~t)I)1~C('11 le t() ~}1 e~ t Ic ieet~i ~~e{~,
but ~~o~ ii~tcii~Ic~~ to~ tiiis p;tI~i(~fl~'I~ lot.
(~. lit tlte ~(`~II1C C()i)~0(~Ctj()!). I~r()fc~~()U?\iai'~1i s;t~~~ tIi;~t``~~ cut;i~~i1lt
N\~S eoiifliliiit that tlie~e ~`;ttt}e, tliiii`i~ il1(~v ~vei'e, ~youl~1 NveI~lI S5()
jtoun~1~ oil at a~~eia~e.  I)i(1?~()u iii;tke that st;iteii~eiit to lijiti?
~.I shall iia~~e to CXt)~(i~ii that ii~ tlie ~aiiie ~a~~, l)~ recilliti  \\ liat
was sai~I.  I)iSliO1) ~I~tie ~~1~eiI ii~e if titese eattlt ~~`otil(1 ~vei~li, evi~Fy
O~C i.()()i) I~O~iii(1A ~iiiI I ai{~.  ~(), tt)CV ~v()~tl(I ii()t,~ (`~iiiI tlteit t~~iit
tii'~t t}ie &&)ii ti';ii~t liii it )t )(~( )iji~ t}ieiii t~)  Ite 1.()()() I)i)uii(is iii \~~(~i,~lit
aii&I tie (`iSl~Ci1 it ii()\N tittitli it ~~~i~ ~tiii{ 1 t()l(i lijiti S~() })()tiiiI1~;~ii~l lie
tutneil to iiie 11(1 s;titl``I )i{t tlie<e ettle;`tvC1~<i~(- Sj() i)()iiiiii~?;i~l~iii
~ ~eiter;i1 eN 1~l(tii('tt~~)ii~~t ~i)Cy (~(tiiiC iii) to tlie eitiiti;iet.  1 aii~~v~~i'et1
liiit4 tit tlit'ee N~ ()t'(1~:  Ye~.;tti~I iiioie.~'  rIli(t~C I tliiiik, \~`CFC tlie exact
words I uscil.
(;). J)i(I ~~i)ti ttt (`I ii~ titttc (~i;tiiit, iii tli:tt ~oii~~ei's:itioii ()~ aii5 otlit~r., tIlt t
tlic~ ~~ei _ lieu ~7)() It0tiit(I.~?
~.~o, sir  itot Ii Xii)' tlie 1 iit()IiHt  oii1~ tIt at they ilIleil ttie coil tr<'tet.
).1)1) ~~()fl l~iio~v ~v1tetlier I~()ttis Icsiia~v ~~`(i5 1)fC5Ctit aitil 5'i\V the
t~sttc ott tlic 14th Xovci~it~er
~.I do itot ktto\v whether lie ~vas (`it tlic corril or itot.
(). I)o ~()i~ li10\V ()f Licutenatit (f;ti'~tciiter`(11111 I~cs1''i\v ~ieiit9 1)rcseiit
at tlie i~suc oit tlie Id'~t1t ~I(qy, lSt5
~.Xo, ~ir  I was ~ii tlic`v~'i~ to ~N~aslitiigtott.
~? Tltc I~rot'essor stys:`~~~itotlier fruitful source of ~`r;iutI itt cittlc at
the led Q'louil a~eitcy i~ tlie systetit of statupeditig, which aI)p('ars to
have 0)CCil Itracticeit there, at least, siiiee tltc I,rescitt a~ciit ti)ol
char~e.  I ~~-ttitt to`~151 y()u tiO\V ittaity statitt,e(Ics have tttkcii Ii]`ice
thee you It ave hecit igeilt here.
A.Soott tifter I tirriveil here, iii lS7;~, tlteic was tt staitiltede 01' c;tttle
Ott the ii ills south of here.
(?. II~~~v tuaiiv C('ittlC vere stai~tlteilcil?
A.~t)0ttt ()()~()
~? IIo\v diii tli~'it ~tauiltcdc oc~ur
A.It occurred by' the I itdiaits rusltiti  into tiie heril to catch a calf.
It was a stornty itif4}lt.  It ~Y('i5 just lit tlte eveitiitg,`itid the cattle`ot
scari'il aitil v'eitt ()t1' cver the hill.  That was tlte st~ttcitieiit ~j\~Ctt iliC
})y' the eltief ltcrdt't'.
(~. I) id aily of these cattle ~ct back jitto the herit of ~fr. I~osler?
A.Nt's, it';t ~`t'eat itlaity' of tltettt.
I )iil a ~ooi1 titatty et itito ~Ir. loleiS itet-il
A. ~`cs, sir.
(~.I Ii)\v ittatly', ai't'orditt~ to tlte best ()f your l'tto'vlcd~i'?
~  I ilo ii tit retiteilt l)t'r 11051 tively ii ow.  I tit liii over 3U).
(? II'tve you``Ot ~`tiiv iitctttoi';titdutu by which you cati state tite itati~ -
her?
~. Ne5 sit'.  I`~i1l et it after a while.
(~.I tow tilatty' (liii you i'ei'ovcr
~. I coult} titit tell you`~ it itout look itt  at tite l)t)ol~s.
(~.I tt)'v itiatty cittle were lust t() tite (&overuiucitt-alJ~~ut litiw tittity
A. Alittut`~()(i, I tltitik.
(~). ~N~}t~'tt 5C'~i~ittt tit' tlte y'c~'ii' wis it
A. It was j() tie fall.
)  I)id ~it'. I)~i~sli~r t etitrit aity cattle fron~ that stau~pede?
~. Yes, ~ii'.
(~). I~ave ytiu tltt' ineatis itt' shv~wiit ~~` the cotittuissiouct S exactly' how 
J~95
n~any ~vere st~inpede~1, how ll~('~fl~ ThIr. ~o~ler I eturiie~~, how 1il('Ifl~ ~Ofl
re~overed ai~d how il~('~i)y ~~ere lost
~. Ye~, sir.
~? ~A~ill you do th('~it
~. Yes, sir.
~? Ifow fl~(~fl~ of flie C(~ttlC which ot h('~~k iii to ~[r. flo~}cr~s herd were
you able to i(iefltifiv
A. rfhC iir~t tliut went into tlie herd ~vere tr~eeii iii l)y tlie lier~}er~,
~n(t tliev jnd~'ed of then~ by tlie~r beii~~' tr'iVei~w()i1l while flie other~
were iii tlie herd.
().I~o'v bug`~fter tlie c~ttlC were st~inpedeiI diii you di~eov~~r it?
~. 1)i~eovered it ri~lit aw;iy l)~it it`vIS a ~toriiiy iiiglit. aii~t tlie mcii
could hot ~illow tlien~ until tlie iiext i1~ornin~
~? [Iiiw ~~ir from  here wns b~i~lei~s herd it tlie tiiiie of that stani
l?e(l~
~. I (`liii hot ri~lit }~ositive whether lie li(~(l lii~ lieril oii tite IiiiiiiinK
~N~('ttCF ()U iiot.   It it wns f)ii tlii 1~niiiiing ~\~~tei', it w~s ali~int tliirt~
`~iiiIt~~.
(~.I)itl y~}ii hive;iiiy neg{itiitio10~ with Po~}er f~ir tlie ietii i~i;i~ those
i~~ittle
~. Ye~ ~ir.
(~.~\~1i<tt other ~t~iIipC~le li~s ever oceiirreil here
A. ()iily tlie one 1 have nlready testified to.
(~.have there beeii ifl~ other 5t(~ll0I)CdC< by which yi~~~ Ii;ive lost eattIe?
A. No,~ir.
(~.Professor ~Iarsh, in his statement, says it i~ a ~vsteui which has
beeii liracticed here.
A. I do not know wl~ether that can be C('illCd a ~~`steiii or iiot-two
ii ~taiice~.
~? ~`(tI1 you guard against thein iii aiiy way? If you caii, state how.
A. No, sir  it is                iiiiot {or~~~ce or 0u'~rd
soni~thin~' von ca                i~aiiist.  ~\Ir.
I(~~ler~~ herd sonietirnes take a ruii.
~? How rn;iny herders had you in charge of those (300 liea~l of cattl~?
A. Three.
~? i)iil you n~ake these herders follow tlie cattle
~. Ye<, sir
~? Iiiiw inal)y days were they out atter tlieii~?
~.Aliont two weeks.
(? I~eterriiig to the statenient of Louis PC5li('i\v a~ to tlie iiiii'iljcr of
i-attic til-It were stampeded, I ask you whether, wlieii thi 15(? (`~ittl~ u~cre
rt-tijriii-il by ~1r. L~osler, aiiy receilit was giveii liiiii f~r tlieni ~
~.Ni), ~ir.
(~.~V~1~ there aiiy voucher given?
A.No, sir.
~?-  IlLS lie received fron~ you any IiaI)er which woul~l Ciii) C liiiii to
ri'(~()~~er ~iay for tlio~e 150 hea~l of cattle a ~cco~id tiiiie
.~. Ni) sir.
(~.I)o you Liiow aiiythiiig about tlie stateiiii~iit of ~[r. 1~'~~li<'iw where
lii-.~.iys tiie (O~t~'iCtors herder`oftered to sell tii lii iii A(iiiie of tliesi
(`.ittlU it ~~l0 -~ head ~
-`. Nii, ~ir  I never heard that sta~~~ini~iit bcfiiiw.
~.I)iii lesliaw ever s~iy aiiytliiiig to you aliiiiit it
~~. Nii ~~ir
(~.`\~1ii~ " i.~ tiie COli tr~ictoi~ rc~1ioii~il Ic l~crilei'`it tl''it i
1  iii hut I- iiow  II( had 1 ii iiiiil ii'r i)f lier~~ci~.
 
~(Jfj
(?. ~\~~~ i ~ ( (~(~1'~~ i)(~}(~i~, Iii ~ 1ji~~t1ier
~\~~}1, I~~`?1I(~I)S ]i~ \V(~111(I 1)~ t1i~ ~~~~1~()1I~ib1( iii;iii
(~.~~1i& ~~~xt ~t~it~ineiit- ~i' I~FOt~~~()1 ~!;~r~}i i~   1~i'ori~ AuQil ~t~ii~~pedcs
(`~1~(1 t}ie l'i';ii~~1 i{~i~t r~~t~1ts i'(J}1(~~j1I,~ 1 )f)tll tii~ I I1(1i~~1~s;tii~1 tlie (xOV(~I'I0~1~(t1)t l1('~~~( J~Hi?'~re(1`i~~~t l()A~(~~.~  1)o You  ]~I1()'V ~vli~tli~r ~ii~ 1o~~ li;~s
l)QeIl su~fti~d by th~ (j'f)V(?1I)1i1(?llt t)(~yoI)(1 t1i~ lo~s ot' tiit ~`itt'ie, 1 ~`~~ at
~?!1~ ti i~~ (`~!)(1 t~)&  tiiiilJ&~r i()St (`It tlit' Ii i'~t  tIll) l)~Il(? )f 15'~
~. ~(), ~IF  I~O loss (`)t (`111 (`~1I(I I &1() liot ti iii  tli~ I I1(I~('iI)A s~~f~~i'~~1 any
lo< at <`Ill.
(~.11()\V )1l(li~'N i)'~l'~o1ls lIj(1 y()ll (?ill)i()N ill t;l~jll~ tll(' ~~)islis ot' tll~
Iii(ii'lI~~?
~  Six.     ill7lkQ l'ei)orts iii ~Vl ~jI)g
~t~' I )i~[ till~(v
~. YeA, ir.
(~.IIO\V (lid yon tIke tiie cellAns
~. ~\~e`velit to tile eallips N\ith ~111 j)It&tI'1lI'($tl~F. ei)tered a i()l1~'e, took
(~()\Vfl ill 1)Cll~i1 tile i~aii~e ~f tile head-i~ian ot' th~ lotige, a~i~I tlie iii~mhei'
ot ~Vol1lCl~ aiid ~~l~iidren iii tiie 1o~1ge, aii~1 tlieii took ()[`t a tieI~et a~i~I
~v~ote lijA ilalne on it, and the nninber ot' i)eoi)le iii t1~e iod~e, ai~~t these
ileliCil 1llCil0or'lllt1~ ~vere tiiei~ bi'on~~ht and CO1)iCd iii a list,;tii~1 \VilC)) tlie
I iidi;~ns i~ronght iii the I i~kets tilit`vere give!) tilelll \ve issned them
their iatioiis.
(~.J)id yl)U go over the ~vliole eoniitry?
A. Yes, Air.
(?.~N~itili1l ho~v flally illileS of the agency?
~. ~Yithiii seven or eight i~iies ~vas tile farthest "`C ~`eIit, becanse 1
i'e'jnire~1 the;n to move in iiear the igeney.
~L~ And ~v1iile that eiinii~ei'ation "`as in progress yott`vere iiot issnii g
provisions or beef?
A. No, sir.
().IIo~v ii~ any d'lys did that ocenpy?
A. TI~ree lays.
Q. Tile resnit of that censlis sbowell so ilially people?
A. Yes, Aji'  Sioux it sho~ved 9,339.
~? And of the Ar;li)ahoes and Cheyeiines?
A. Tiie Arapiboes aiid Cheyennes were not conlited at that ti!llC.
~~~e liad no aiiiinity-goods for theni  aiid I had eoniited the in previonsly
bnt solne time i~tCr tilit I eoniited them  agaili.
Q. I~id yon not issne aniinity.goods to theiii last ve<~r?
A. Not nntii spring.
~?. J~ill yon Cl)flIlt ally other tb('lfl the Siorix at that till)?
A. No, sir.
().No~v, will yon tnl'li to yo!lr record of tiie bla~ikets
A. Yes, sir.
~t~ Ho~v 1)1 ally i~ales ~)f l~iaiikets lli(l yon reLcive liSt year for ilistri
blitioll anlolig tile Iiidia~is
A. 1~or the SiOlix. 37 hales.
~? lIow many i~la~ikets to a l~ile
A. i~ifty l)airs to each hale.
Q. Tile)) yon received that <`l~~rc~'<ite lln:nbci' of Iji('lllkCtA
A. Yes, sir.
~? ~N~he~t were they isAfleli
A. They \vere issned I ~~eiieve 011 tlie 12th Noveiiiber.
~~L' ~V('iS Professor?\Iarsh illeseIlt
A. Yes, sir; I thiiik lie W;i5.
(;). Did yon show hitn tile bla~ikcts 
u9CJ7
~. f dii iiot sl~o~ hi iii aii~~tliiii~.  I~~iI1v, iii!i1~ ()\VII 1i~iI1(~, I oiily
kpow that he ~vas present at th~ ~~[IC by tiie fiCt ot liis beiiig at the
ag~iiCy (`~Ii4 sceilig h~in arouu(l licie.  ~Iy fl)iIl(I ~(`i~ too liluCh OCCupiC(t
~~itli tliC b~i~iness I was eflgigC(t iii to I~'~Y I!1U(~iI ~ttCI1tiOii to`~ lio was
ii Ci~C.
(~.Did led Dog n~ake ai)y Coii~i)laiiit diiriiig tlie  S~HC of tiiose
}Jl;ttik~t
A. N()Iie to ii0e.
~? ~V;i~ lie present?
~. ~~(~~, sir; he was in tlie ~`~qr~1i~~i'~~~.
(~.~\` liat!iidiaus, if a'iy, ~vere j)CiIIIi tC(i t() ~CC aii~l CX~IIi~1IC tlie
l)'i~I kt~t~`.~
~. All tlie head~inen that Cho~& t() ~OJiiC.
(? \Vliat blankets did you is~Iie
~. I i~~ued laO fajis of  ~~j)0iIit N\l)it(~   ~5(  })ains of l~-poiiit
" Iiit(?A  J7U pairs of 3-I)oilit ~((`iIlut       1)('i~I'~ of ~))~1)0~iIt sCarlet
1);iir~ of 3-point iudig~~-bl U C 1)1 t'~ ()t     jilt ~~I'CCJ1  )5() pairs
(it`~.~-J)()iUt green  1 ()O 1iaiis of )I)~1)()~~J t 11(1 ~o liltie.
~?- I~ that tlie whole?
A. Ye~, ~ir.
Q. I)oes that make l,S5O pairs
A. Ye~, sir.
(~.I)o you say that ati of these bla'ikets w~re issned that day?
A. Ye~, sir.
~~. Did you yourself assist ii~ the distribntioii of these blaiikets ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who assisted yo'i ~
~. ~Iy eiii~~loye's, ~ir. TibbCts,?\fr. L()l)(iC-!1, ~Ii. P~re'ver, ai~d a numl)er of other u0eu.
(~.Did Louis Reshaw assist you
A. No, sir; he was acting as tlie head of tiie half-breeds.  He signed
tlie recei1)ts for their goods.  lie was apj)oiuted by then~ to receive
tli~~ir goods.
(~.Was he in the warehouse assisting yoii
A. No, sir.
(~.Protessor ~Iarsh says,  Oiie of tlie pers()!is whoiii I tlieii saw as~I~~i!Ig the agent in issuilig tlie hlaiikets w;is Louis I~esha'v."  ~N~as he
at thit tiiiie employed by you?
A. lie liad been en~iiloyed np to that tin~e.   I thiiik that d~y I dis"h;ii-~e1l liini.  I had hired hiin by the d'iy ti) assist iii couiitiiig the
I ii(ll;LIi.~.
(~.I)i(l lie
on that day as~ist iii distributiii _ tlie blaiikets aiid other
~!)Ii111ty.~()()(l~ to the Red (floud haiid
No,.~ir; otily iii reCeiving the goods f~r the half-breeds.
(~. I )iit lii i)r (li(1 Red L)~~g or P~uil (2li~ail oil tli-it lay eoinpl-~iii that
lii'~- ii iii hot get their full ~luailtit-v of ali IliIit~ —(~oolls
-~. I ii iii hot t1(~l~`it).'- C0I1'1)l(~i~Il ts 1)11 tli;it ~l<-iy.  [ii fiCt, pursoils s'iiil
tit'- t'V&'!ilii  th-it they flCVCr 5&'l\v saili geii~ral satisf<'t~tioii  iii  tlie
ii i~i ritiiit liii tit  gii{itls.
t~ I)iil l~i)i))5 1~~esha~r ever sly to you that liC t'oiiiiteil tlie hales of
I~l.iiikt't~~ ~.
.`.   Ni1 ~ir.
~~    \Vi-ri. tlier~ 18 ~i.'iles 5sil(~il ilt ii diiT~r~iit time foin tlie tithers?
N1i -~ir  tlIt\v "`ere ill issui'il at fitiCe (iii tli(')t il;iy. a ii      I I~i~~- hug`i ti iii~`v;is ruiluit-ell tt) lUiki tli'~t distUil)utioIl
Jitiit\  ~i~iij~ I 
\.  ~}1 ~i~~.  I ~ ~vi j)t)11)'1}) 1) o'~~1oe1 ~vI~ei~ ~Je (~()I11~~1(~~I~t~(l ()j)eIliIl
tlie 1~~~1es. ii~~1 W~ (lj(1 1~ut  (~t t11I~)i1~1I 11 tit ii j)rettv 1i~~~ 1;~r1.
~? J )o you kno~v Nvh~t tlie )IO{)()it~OIl of l)}('il~kCtS f()1' th~  jijtlX flJtioli \~ d~.  \~~hdt i~nii~ber ~f hues ~vent to the Si()flX
~.  ~~i weiit to tlie ~ioux.
(). ~\~1iat do yofl s;~y`~hout tlie size of tlie 1daiiket~`?
~.  I s'1~ they ~vere t1~e nsii~I N\Ciglit of tilit ~iZC l~l;tiik~~ts, lint iii iny
ojitliloli it ~vould be bet~er f~tt tlie iii cii to lia~-e soiiie l'ir~er bl'iiikets4-1){JiIlt bl('lIlkCt5.
(~ 1~rofc~s~)r ~t~i1'Al~ slys.  The bl;iiil'ets aetulily is~u{~i( were bitterly
coIu1)1~iIICd of by tlie tiidi'ins for two reas~iis- the hust 1~eiiig ttieir
siiinli sizes. ~-i~ieh were not (`id('i~tCd to mcii as 1arQ'e (15 tlie Sioux braves
an~l were oiily fitted for`voiiien and chil~lren."  I~id they so eomi)lain ~
A.  They did.
(~. A ii (1 iii your udguielit the blankets were too siiinll for the braves?
A.  Yes. 511'.
~? i)id they object to tlie braiitl?
A.  No. sir  only to its alipearailce.  They Coulpl'tined of tlie al)l)earniice ot' tlie lilankets.  They waiited to know what tlie lirand was on
there ft~r.  Thev th~)uo'lit it was souietliing connected ~vith the soldiers.
~? ~N~hy ~`as tlie issue of blankets delaved to so late a lici-ind ~
~.  They "`ere withhel(l to compel these peolile to be couiited.
~? NVere they suffering for want of blankets at that tii~e?
A.  I thiiik hot particul;irly.
~? JIow bug had the blankets and annuity-goods lice ii at tlie agency
b~tore the issue?
~.  Tlie last two bales of b1('~i1kCt5 were received on tlie 3d November.
(~. ~Vhcii were tlie first aiiiiuitv-goods received?
A.  Oii the (3th (~)ctober.
~? Now, who is the iiext in raiik to P~ed Cloud in tlie Sioux Nation?
k There is 110 such ~`1ii 1 amoil g them.
Q.  Tliisistlie i;~rofrssorscxliression  "This earnest protest on tl~e part
of tlie eliief wlio is iiext to I~e~l Cloud called nly particular`itt~1it~O~ to
tlie aiiiount issued.~'  NN~lio is that i~crson?
A.  I do liot kiio~v.
(~. J~oes the deseriptinit enable you to tell who that is?
A.  No. sir.
(~. In ~liat illailner were those goods de~ivered
A.  The w'lrehOnse'(loOr w~s oliene(~. aud a sen~ieircle of the Iiidians
formed;iroui~d it. outside the door. ~[ost of the chiefs tli~~ii~selvcs were
in tlie warehouse.  Tlie -goods were then taken, cich kiil(l selecte{l out
of the p~ickages. taken out from tlie bales, aiid tlieii ipeiietl.  Tiic lists
were called out aii~l tlie amount marked oil the lists ililiosite their nanies,
and the goods were cai~ied by the ciuployts and l('i~d do~vn in front of
each 1-epreseiltative nian.
Q.  Theii if olie chief was entitled to so niany blankets, so inaiiv yards
of cloth, -5nd so much of another article, his proportion woul~l be 1)Ut
together iii a separate pile
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Is there any other n~ode of distributing annuity- goods CXCC1)t to
the heads or chiefs of baiids?
A.  I do not know of aiiy other.
Q.  Ilave you ever listriliuted goods to the Indi;ins iiidividually?
A.  No,sir.
Q.  Is it lett to the duet ot a band to distribute to liis people the
quantity which that bind receives? 
u~99
~ N(), siU.  It is tlie A~)l(liCF~ ot tlie b<'l!~d NVl)~ lj~triIjute tliegoo(Is
~~lic chie~ receives tlieiti (`~1Id tiic sullicis distriU~tc them   i?hat is their
custoiii
(~ ~Vhat system of checks h~vc you to 1~CV~~'~~1l tlie actual ainoniit
ven (-)r required?
A. 4ust the list of tlie naiue~.  1'<tkc 1'c(l ~`l~~uil, wlio lias a certaiii
iiiiiiiber of' people: That num~icr is (`1 CCl~t(l~1I 1)F~)J)O1tiU1i of the whole
iiuiii1~er of' tlie p~ople.  1 find l)y tlie l)ills l1O\V iiiiicii {)f cert;iiii kiiids of'
00(15 there is to be distribu~e~l, (`I iid I  ive lii iii tlie l)rol)ortioil he is entitlell to, and iii the same way wit ii C('~Ch of the others.
(~.II;ive you any record ot that befoic tlie ilistributioii begiiis?
A. I mnke it lip oil p~~)er, and the I)'il~Cr should be oil file arnoiig these
iloenuients which I have ill ll~y h~iiiil bitt I tiiid it is iiot here.  It ~has
beeii niisplaced, but it is somewhere.
(~.You make up the distributioii oil p~~~er bcforeliaiid
A. Yes, sir.
Q Now, in the distribution of goods, how do y()n show afterward
that the distribution hns actually bee ii made
A. 1 have no other showing for it CXCCl)t tlie returi~s
Q. You have the lists mt(te up wit Ii the name of each chief, the nninher of his people, the proportion of etch article which is to be distributed.
Now when that distribution has actually been niade, what do you (10?
Do you cheek the lists?
A. I check them off, eaeh issue of each article as it is made.
Q. Did yon do it on the 12th November yourself?
A. I did.
Q.Now, then, the statemeiit of Professor ~larsh is that "The only
~lata by which the issue ~-as regnlatetl was a I)eucil-iiieinorandunl in
tlie liands of the agent, wlio cilled oil tlie (~uaiitity to be delivered to
each chief or headtnaii."  Is that a correct statciiiciit
A.Except that the paper was ~-ritten otit iii iiik, aiid I checked it
with a pencil.
Q.Did you see whether or iiot all the goods upon that writteii mcmorinduin were actually delivered to the persolis iiamed?
A.Yes, sir.
Q. After the delivery, did any Indian say to you that lie had not re  ceived his share?
A. I do not remember one.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. In taking the receipts of Iiidians for 51i1)1)1iC5 issued, what iiieaiis
(10 yoll employ to see that they uiidcrataiid what they are receipting
IbrI
.~. I~adii~g out and having the interpreter ex1)l'Iiil it as he goes
al~~~i~  I generally ask them  through tiie iuterl)reter if they under  ~taiitl it before they sign the receil)t.
(~.I)o you do that in the ease of each issue of each article?
~. I explain it to all the party to~ether.  Tlie iiitei~~}reter eertilies
tli<'~t lie has correctly interpreted it to tl~em.
(~.I)o you always niake theSe issues yoursclf?
A. Yes, sii   ~?- ~Vhat certificate do you render to the I)eliartineiit of lie issue?
A. Jtist a copy of the receipt, which is as follows:
RL-D Ct{~t D A~.LN~~v, D~ T.,
~\urcmtr 1-2, ia74.
~~~- the I~ndersigned, chiefs and h~aImen of the Ogallala Sioux, acknouI~dge to have
lay r~ceived of J. j  Saville, United St~tt~s Itidian`a~eut, lie toIlu~' ug artides of
aIi(itiity.goods, the same being our annuities for the year i~74 
i1i&~i~ f()II'J~~~  1 ist  t.`~)()(IA`~I0&1 tlie;iii~&~ ()f tlie eljiefs.  Tlie f~rst
i~ii;~tu1e S th;it of I~C(I Cloud.  TIie iiuxt 1U~ 1~e(I 1)o~, SlO\V ~~11,
~iftiii  I)~I1I  ~~id I~oujsIes1i~~\', ~or tlie jj~ixe~I-bIoo4s.
(~. ~N~1~eii you ieeeive`~Iti~1~5 fioin tlie coiitr~~~tor, by ~~11(1t ii~ethed do
you veiify the (`1fl~O1111t le(J~~ivCd
~.Ii~ puekdges 1)~1t Ill), ~1)~1 in t11('~t f()['1fl ~veig1~~~1 by tlie iiispe~'tor.
~~~e geiier<'illy td1~e tb(~I11 by the iIlSt)C(}t()~"5 ni~ii'ks, unless they ho~v
sighs of 11'tYiI1~ beeii 01)ened, (`~1)t' ~H tli~t C(')5C ~VC ~veig1i tlien~.
(~. J~(~ you I.C(~U~~~C ~jii~~tliiiig CX~CI)t beef ~vitliout tlie eoi~tr;~etoi~s
brtnd?
A.No. sii.
(~ ~N~l~~t is ~~(~UI' iiiod& of iII~1)C(~tiI) _ b~uf to see thIt it i5 up ro conti-~iet`?
A.~i!))})ly ~)N gcI1eI'<'~lly Vi(~\V~II~ uii1 ~vei~liii~g tiie herd.
~?- %Viio is tlie insI)ector?
k Tlie (`1:~eI1 t A C()I1Ai(~CI'(?(t iiis~~~ct`2.  Tlicrt is 1)0 special iiispeetor
of l1~~( ~t~~cl~.
~?- AN~lI('It 1~C~I')S las t1ie agent of c~)i')pulli1ig the freighter to l~asteii
()t)(~5 I()FNV'l1~1
A.  Noi~c bt)t rcl)()rti ig' to tlie C')'! Ill 1551()l)Ci? of Iii(liqll A!I<tirs.
~?- IIo~v tie~jueiitly di)rii g y()llr o~Cll1);lIlCy of this J~O5itj~)l~ lia ve you
betil 1)l1t to incilllvellie!lCC by tbe dellyS of freigl~ters
A.  f\vice to tli;it exteilt th;~t i il'~(l to report to \~~ashii~gt~)u.
(~. Ho'v bug a (IcIiy ~vere you subj~cteil to iii those eases~
A.  I d~~ iiot reii~einber no~v tlie ex'~ct tiiiie four or five ~veeks.
Q.V~ider date of Deeeiuberffi9, 1S7:)),yonr letter-book shows that you
rep~~~'te~l to tiie Coii~iliissi~)IlCr of Indi;iu ~ffiir5 that ~Ir. ~IeCaiin was iiot
fiiriiishiiig tile requisite ainonilt of ti-alisportation from  Cheyeuiie., an~l
state~l that if trans~~oi'tation should t('l~l,Yl)n`vonl~1 he eo~iipelle~1 to issue
l)eef ill lieu of the supplies of haco~i aiid ft~)nr.  Can you 5t'Lt~ what action was taken by the Department oil receipt of your letter?
~.Nes, sir ~1r. ~IcCaiiii ~i5 notified by the Department, and he
in~ nied ia tely furiiished the transportation.
(?- NYith reg'ir~t to the mo~le of receivilig beef, (10 you ever make any
allowince to tlie coitrictors for shrii~kage oii accouiit of over-driv
iIl~.
A.No. sii.
t?- Ilas it ever beeu doi~e?
A.No, sir.  ~ question was raised here at one time with regard to
that.
(?- No~~, w}~at is the aniount of a ratio)) issued to tiie Ii~dians`?
A.I wilt take it at IOU r;itions:;3()O 1~ouiids gross of beef, 75 pounds of
flour, I 1~,;iuiids ofeoftee, S j)ouIidS ot' su~'lr, about 15 poui~ds of bacoii.
In lien ot a I)('tI t ot the flour, w lieu  we liav e corn (`hid b calls, I issue 30
l?ouilds of flour,:30 poliii(t5 of eorii, ni~~t S 1iouiids of beaus, i'j lieu of the
;) 1~ounds ot fioi~r.  I will Cxliii) ii to y on tlia t this is tlie basis of the
estimate tbr food, but tile Iiidiiiis do iiot alw<'iys get tli'tt an~oui~t every
issue.
(~. ~Vhy do tliev 0i~t a less amount?
A.beeluse a less aiiiouii t is purehised for them and we hive to reduce tie amount cf ratiolis.
(~. TI) what extent are tlie ratioiis reduced?
A.To the eNteilt of the necessities of the case-~~f the supplies on
11(111(1.
Q.To wl~at extent are tlie rations reduced in the sat' plies furnished? 
401
A. Last year they were redticed perh'~pS one-third of the whole
aiiiouiit  th('~t is approximately.
Q. \Vitli regard to the distaiice floin Cheyeiiiie to this i~lae~-what is
your e~tiiiiate of it ~
\. ~Iy estimate by the road tli'it 1ia~ been n~easnred was fi()to oiie
1iuti~lre~i and sixty-five to one hnii(tre~l (~i1I(l seveiity-flve nii1~~~~.
(~ Do you know whether that rOi(I i-~ Ioiiger or s}i~~i~ter th~tii tiie one
nsuaiy traveled by freighters~?
A. t kIIo\v it only by the statem~iits of fr~i~lit~~r~.  I i~ifer fl'()I1) its
conise that it is Ion gel'.
~? lIow much loiiger, do you sul)1)ose
A. I have no idea, sir; all tlie i~l~a I li;ive is froiii ~Vl1(~tt f have beci
tol(l.
(~.In your letter-book, nnder d~te of Noveiiil~er 9 I~7:~, 1 {iii(l a certificite th~it the generally traveled ro;id fI()ni (Wlieyciiiie,`is iiicasnre~l t~y an
odonieter, was found to be 22~?~7(J inil Cs.  ~\`ili you 5t('itC if yoii please,
the circnmstaiices of tile n~easuieuient
A. A letter wis written by the Comn~issioner of In~1ian Affiirs, ordering an odometer to be put oil a wheel at Cheyeiiiie by the store-keeper
seale&l, and not to be removed until it arrived at the agelicy, where I
was to open it and certify to the d~stance, as tlie letter 5t('itCd, but really
to tlie iiidicatioiis of the odoiiieter.  Tlie odoi~ieter was l)laced on`i
wagoii-wheel, and when it arriveti here I f~~uiid tl~at it`vOul(i iiot indicate
the distance. Another was purcliase~I which would indicate tlie distance,
and when it got here I took it off. aiid fouiid that its indications were, I
thiiik, about one hundred an~l thirty ~niles, but it h;id beeii taken oil'
the wagon, and therefore its in~lications were not c~)rrect, as I supposed.
~7nder the instrnctioiis to iiie I was ordered, iii ease I deemed it neces
sary, to return the odon~eter aiid have it placed oil again.  I di(l return
it to Cheyenne, and at~oat that time I received a letter froin the ComIi0Issioner urgilig ine about tlie n~easurement, and ~1r. ~1cCaiin put an
odometer on a light wago ii or t~uggy, aiid brought it through sealed, as
was orde~ed. Oii that I certified to what that odometer indicated when
it arrived here.
Q. Do you reniember tlie amount?
A. I think it in~licated about two liuiidre~i aiid twenty-six n~iles.
(~.Had you atiy reason to sul)I)o~e ~liat either of tl!()5C o~loiiieters was
tamj'e'-ed ~ ith excel)t the one you said liad been taken off?
A. I had not.
(~.Your letter-book, nuder date of December 21st, ~S74, reports that
12S cattle are n)issing, as you have stated to-day; tltat (`ill but 30 or 40
(which went oil' to the Siiake I-~iver) were tr<-iile~l to tlie coiitractor's
herd.  ~Yhat meaiis were takeii to secure the return of the ~() or 90 still
supi)osed to i)C in the coiitractoi"s h~~rd
A. It was referred to tlie I)epartiiie iit. ~Ir. ~~~~sler`i ii (1 I were disliuting over it.  He deiiied that so nially li;id been triced to liis herd, aiid
I referr~d the matter to tlie I)el);-Irtiiieiit.
(~.N~ h;tt was the fii~at result of tlie ci iitro~ f I`N
A. The result was, that the I)ep;ii'tiiieiit settled it by- creditiiig iiie with
tlie iiuinber n~issing, 10 pon 1 roofs`~hich as I uiiderst~iii~1 it, tlie b~oslers
iuriiisbed to tlie Department.
(~.Y~~ur.letter-book, uniler dite of November 1~' 1S74, shows a letter
to tiie DeJi'irtineiit, reportiiig tli;it s()ii)C iness-l)i)i'l recei~ cii i~ eiitii~ly
w or tliles 5 for tlie use of' the 1n~liaii. aiiil, nude I- d;ite ot Dece inber 7' 1&S74,
reI)~)rts that all flie pork excel)t tlie first )()() 1~irrels, is Ci)n0l)i)5Cd ot'
slioiil ilers and neck~, and that  as - liis is of no use to tlie Indians, I have 
4~2
quit i UiI0~ it, ~I~(I }1('I11 is~iie I~t) 110O1~ iiiitil I receive ijj~trut'tioHS fiou~
flI)~1 I request instrfl(~ti()1~S.~' ~N~}1('It i1~StI'flCtiOI0S di~1 you leceive?
~.I received i~~structi~)~0S <~t tlI'<4t tilile to ~VitI111OI(I it fuoiu issue ui~ti1
the colitlactor ~hould i~~qke it ri~lit.  It \V('~~.jtter~~urd ~ettled ~vith tiie
~ontra(~tor tll('lt he ~hoitld l~1ivcr b(1(~OI1 iu liei~ of the difl~ren~-e iii v~itue
betwcei~ this pork ~~~d ii~cs~.pork.
Q.~onr books slow 4a'~( b~-~rie}s theii oil hand (~fl1 ill transit. ~Yas
tl~at d~livered to the Iu(li'lilS att~r t}ie Settlelllelit had been n~ade?
k It w<~s. sir.
~t~- Al~out ~vhat aiiiouiit of muds aiiiiually ~~ass through the 11(111(15 of
the -~gcIIt ~-~t this 1~lace
A. The t(~t'1t qni~~unt received froiii the third quarter of 1S73 t() tlie
secoIld 1uarter ~~f i(~75 is.~(31,313.97. Tlie f~~llo'viiig stateii~eiit slio~-s
the ainonlits received each quarter during thIt period
Arnoulit received third quarter, IS73... -  ~7. 960()0
Amount receive(l iourth quarter, 1873 - - -.        9, 330  00
A~nonnt received first quarter, 1874                 8, 175  83
Auioiii)t received secoiid quarter, 1874               ~, 177 07
Au~ou[1t received third quarter, 1874                  1,486 07
ArnollIlt received fourth quarter, 1874              12, 480 00
Au~oul1t ieceived first quarter, 1875                  9.530 00
Aniount received second quarter, 1875                  10, 175 00
Total amouiit received                            61, 313 97
Q.N\~liat was the expense of erecting tlie agency buildings?
A.The expeiise of erecting the buil~lings, aside from the running of
the agency, I have not estimated. A good proportion of tlie work was
done by the employ c's of the agency.
Q.Have all the bills contracted at that time been paid?
A.No, sir; there are a few bills ~ hich have not been paid.
Q.To what amount, probaUy ~
A.The whole of 1873 and 1874 deficiency amounts, I think, to about
~5,000.
Q.~Vhat is the occasion of the delay ill these paynlents?
A.They were stricken off the Deficiency Bill.  Last winter I was ill
N\~asliiiigtoii, and understood they were on the bill, but just at the last
of the sessioli they were stricken off with other things.
Q.I)oes tlie delay of the ()overnmeiit in settling its accounts iiicrease
tlie runnilig expenses of the ageilcy?
A.Yes, sir.
(~. llave you any idea to what amount?
A.No, sir.
Q.Fron~ what source or fuiid are supplies fujijislied to tlie eniployt's
of the agency?
A.They have be~ii issued from the Indian snpplies up to the first of
this fiscal year.
(~. Has ally additional appropriatioll been niade for that purpose?
A.1 (10 not know of ally.
Q.Have you snpl)oscd that tlie sui~Idies for tlie em~~loy(s of the
agellcy wele so iiiuch tilen ~)ut iron' the 5111)1)lics furiiished foi- the
Indiai~s?
A.That is what I have supposed.
Q.Has aiiy chaiige been niade since July 1, 1875, ill that respect?
A.Yes, sir. The emplo~{'-s receive aii allowance tor rations which
they are allowed to purchase from the Indian snp}~lics on haiid. 
403
Q. ~Vhat becomes of the moiiey paid by the en~i~Io~~(s for their
rttioi0s?
A. Tlie instructions have ~i,ust atrived, and I have 100t investigated
what sit all be done with it.  It is to be tak~~~ h'on~ t}i~ir pay.
(? Do you understand whether iii the new arrt!1geI1~C1tt f~~r si~ppiyiug
tbe Indians any provision is made for the amount taken oat for the use
of the employc's?
A. I do not.
~? lIow many white entpi~v~'s of the agency ha —c fii'lian or
1~rt~ud wives?
A. Ten.
(~.I)o their familie~ draw supplies fiom the (%o~~eriiii~ettt as Indians~
A. Yes, sir.
~?. TIie affair of raising a flag-staff itas beeti reF&rte~l t() - -eral titne~.
~~~iiI you state, in th~ briefest form, ~vltat was your re;ts~ii for wishiitg
to put ttp a flag-staff at the agency?
A. I bad two reasons.  One was, that I mi~it tise it to raiAe a flag
1t~)0fl Ott Sunday, to indicate to the Iitdi;~us when Stitt~1ay c~tne  ait~~tiier
was, to use it for the purpose of signaliitg tite utilit-iry l)J5t for assistance, if necessary.
Q. Is there any school maintaitted about the a~ettcy?
A. Sot at present.
Q. Has there been?
A. No, sir.
Q. Are there any means of moral or religions trailtitig far eitherchiidren or adults employed about the agency?
A. No, sir.
Q.You have spoken several times iii your testimony of tite Indian
~oldiers. Will you state briefly how they are orgaitized, and whether
they receive pay~ and how they are employed?
A. They are simply some Ittdian soldiers or warriors whom I employ
OCcasionalk~, under a commission of the Del~artntetit, when they ate
needed, and pay them a per diem for the time they are actually em j)lo ed.
Are they organized?
A. No, sir.
Q. ~Vhat would you think of tite policy of tite orgattization of tbe Iii diatis into Companies or battalions for the I)~~l)05C of protectiitg the
agency~keeping them under regular orgatiiz'~tion?
A. That is something I have ~)eett tryilig to get l)eriitission to acconi pii~h ever since I have been at the a~e1tey.
Q. Would the agency in that case be (`ibiC so fir as its defense is
COncented, to dispense with the aid of the regular Artity
A. Ye~ sir; I believe so.
Q. lIow are the estimates for supplies for tile agettey tt~ade?
A. Tbey are made by me upoti the calctilatioti of the average tiumber
(~f indians to be fed, on the basis of rations I have giveti you.
Q. Do you make any allowaitee in your estitatte for tite probable in c~a~ in the number of the Indians dnrittg certaiti seasons of tite year.
A. I did tbis year, but not last year, attd that, I stil)I)ose. wis otie of
-ite rea~ns for the short antount of rations. 
404
PLED CLOUD AG~NcY, N~~RAsKA,
Fi'id~y, t?y(U$t 13, 1875.
Iloii. TIIc)~~AS (1. FLET&~llE~'L el~~irll~~fl  lion. CIlAPLES J.
i~AVLKNEPL Hon. B. ~V. I-JA~L'RI5., ~~iid ibrof. ~EOR(kE ~V. ATllL'RTON.
The examination of 1)1'. S'~ville w;.s r~~snrned.
by Mr. ATllLRTON:
Questiol). T)oes your estiii~<~te for sup~~lies cover`iiiythiiig for the einploycS? You told us ye~ter(l'~v that tlnriiig tlie last fiscal year tile
supplies for tlie employ{s were taken out of the India~i supplies.  No~v
the que~tion is, I)ocs your cstin~at~ for this year cover anything for the
~~l~ll)lo~~('s  T 1~ave ilever n~at~e an estiu~ate for the emp}oy(s separately.
~~n~wer.
Q. Have ally back is~ucs been made to cover the times when the IiiditilS did not receive ti~cir regular supplies?
A. None, eNeet)t of beef to cover the ti~ne of the eiiuineration.
Q. Ilow long last winter was the road in such co))ditio)l as to prevent
the re~ular defivery of sni~plies?
&. i)nrii)g Jani~ary <`1)1(1 [`e~ruary.
Q. 1)o you know how ~ilaily tiu~es there was a- failure to - issue r( gulaily ~.
A. I do not know.
(? Can you give us any idea!
A. I canilot. I was away a portion of the tin~e.
Q. Are the Chey~nilc~ a~~d Ar')pahOCS treated any dift~rently fron~
the Sioux?
~. Not in regard to supi)lies.
Q. Are they in ally other respect?
A. N\~ell, th~y get their annuities se~~arately. 0, no; they are treated
no diferently in that respect, either, olily they do not get them at the
~an~e time.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. ~Yill you band to tl~e commi~sion on their retnru from Spotted
Tail age ii cy a detailed state~i~ei~t or transcript from your books of the
~ni~uity-goods received aitd distributed for ~874 ~
A. I will do so.
Q ~Vill you also hai~~~ to the commission a transcript of your beefaccount fro~n July 1 1~74, to this til~~e, with such explanations as you
inay deem itece~~ar v
k I will, sir.
Q. Now. the!), I waiit to ask vou what account you keel) of tlie disti~ihution of the aii~iu)ty-goods.
A. I keep oiily the receipt given by the Indiaits.
Q. C')n you 51)0w frotu a)lv accou~it or inen~oranduin1 the qua)ttity of
aniiuity-~oods ~ivei to the headmeit severally ~
A. I canitot.
Q. NVl~at (10 you  ay ()f tite tobacco issued duri~i~' tlie last year
~~`ts it or was it itot a  (~()d juality of tobacco1 and was it atlapted to
the wants )f tlie I)ld~()l)5
A. In my o})inio)) a different ki)l(l of tobacco would be better for tiie
Indians.
(~.NV hat do you say of tite sugar of last year?
A. I say th~it it was a fair <trticle of brown sugar.
Q. ~Vas it as good as the sugar you are now receiving? 
405
A. Not quite.
Q. Is th~ san~ple of coffee whieh you have i)resented to the eoIi)missioiiers siiice the? have heen here a fair sanii~le of all the coffee re~ei~ed iiii~Ier tlie co~itracts of 1S74?
& I tliiiik it. was abont an average sau~i~le.
(~.~Vas there aiiy coffee worse than that
A. ~~es, sir.  There was son~e of it that was darker, and there were
i~ore d;trk grains in it.  ~Yhether it Wd5 aily worse as a whole, 1 cannot
say.
(~.Iii ~ our judgment was the pork, the I)riuie pork, all of it sound
5\~~~t i~ork
~. I believe it was as far as I kiiow.
~? Is it true that SOiliC portioils of it were made of shoulders, i~cchs,
aii~t iiii~ldlings!
~. That is true.
~? Ji~ your judgment, was that pork merchaiitable in aI)y niarket ~
A. Yes, sir.
(~.~Vhat n~arket ~
A. I think it was pork that was put up for the southern market.  At
least I bave seen such pork put up before for market.
(~.I)o you not say that it was a very low grade of pork?
k Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And in yourjudgmeiit was such pork adapted to the waiits of the
Iiidians in any respect?
A. It was not.
Q. ~Vhy did you, at last, recommend its distribution to the Indians,
itfler having notified the Departineiit that it was not what they wanted?
A. After some time, when the rations were short, the Indians wanted
tlie pork.  There were some barrels OpCI'C(l aii~l issned. aiid I gave that
to tlien~.  They used it, an~l as n~ore ()f tlieii~ g()t to using it they
waiited the pork.  ~~Ir. Slavens ha~t tlieii, as I understaiid it, n~ade a
l)ropositiou to the Departmeiit to deliver bacoii iii lieu of the difference
()f the value of this pork and mess-pork, aii~l (`15 tlie Iiidiaiis had found
tlI.'Lt they could use it and were using it, ai~d were aiixious to get it, and
were short of supplies, I recommended that it sli~~uld be accepted.
(? Now, then, I want to ask you al~ont tli( seven cattle which were
seeli by Professor ~Iarsh aiid tl~e militiry ofticeis.  N\~ere those cattle
issued to tlie Indians
A. They were not issued as beef to tlte Iiiili;~iis.
~~. ~`~ere they accepted aiid paid for is l~ee~
A. No, sir, they were liot.
~? ~la'.e they ever b&en paid for
~. No, sir.
~? II'~ve they been deducted f~'oin I)'J~lei v.i'~icl~t'i's., ol hive (ii cijuil
iiiiiiiber beeii deducted?
~. I never give.`~Iiy voucheis f{)i' tlieii).  Tli~'v weli' lii'v(.r iii(.'luded iii
;i!iy voii~~lier.  I iiever receil)ted to I~oslei- tot- tlieiii.  They eaiiie t() lie as
;t I).'Lrt of tiie lj() liClil that ~Ir. I>osler li;t~l <`i ~ret',~ t() i'eturii ()Ii accouiit ~r
1 lie (ittle which liad ~tamiieded aiiil glilie li-i('l to tlie COiitr'1('t()r'5 lieril.
`flii.y wt-I-e turiied on tlie raii~-e with tlie (i~lieU (`at t]e. aiiil ait~'r'vards
lit-i ~1r. P~,~sler retiiriied. I retitseil t() reei'iN-e;i cei-t<-i iii iiiiiii1~er itt' them.
1 t Ii iiik itiily four of those eattle wei-e receivt'~l.  Tlie others ~vli (`11 were
It- t'('(C(l were either killed or t('ikCil ~ty- tlie Iiiili<-iiis.  1 liei'e`V`I-C thu' tt't'ii i't'i~~'t~tl
lig ii()\'- i\togetlier.  I h-~\-e iiiy iiieiii~ii';iii~1iiiii s()iiie\\ liele.  lit I (`itIl
troin ilieltioly.  T liei'e were tliii'teeii lit';itl.`iiiy ~\~-i -, which
1 i'et'tiseil to r~'ceijit f~r, aiid these four`vei'e SililiC ~r tli(.)5~'.  1  irojiose 
406
to ~iVC VOll`)~fore y()fl go`(~~V'(~~ ~~fl (~fl}41V~t ~f t}ie chief l~er~~er ~vli~ ~va~
tlicii iii (1i~Ig~ of tlie 11CI(~.  I ~`i11 CX1)1'lifl fnrtl~ei.  1 never undei &~fl~
t'ircUii~At;~1~CCS received ~~e~rIiiig~,`~I~(i tI'{)~C cittle ~~1iicii they S ~V iD
the r'i~ige ~\ere yearlings.  Their stiteinellt ~v~s that there ~vere ~io'ht
licail ~~r cattle oil the rail ge.  i~oi~ir of those ti~id beeii bron{~lit to inc by
~Ir. i3i~sIer for the I)UPOAC of tnrniii~ them over to I~e as beeves, and
those I rejected ai~d never receipted fi~r.  They were part of thirteen
the rest of the thirtecil were pr~~bal)iy killed by the Indi;ins.  Th~y
were not there.
C~. State what ~oiiversation took t)lace betwecil yon`lad I~rofessor
~Iarsh and tlle (Won~missioner with refereiice to tho~e cattle.
~. In tlie first place it wa~ a free coil versa tioll witliont thought that
it woald be 1)ubli~hC(l.  I i'emarked to tlie Commissioller, iii liis oflice,
that I thon~l~t I liad never receii)ted for those cattle which General
Bradley spoke of.  That being pnblished, Professor ~1arsh eame to me
and wai~ted to know if I had said thit I had iievet- received those cattle.
I told ii in 110  that I liad not stated positively, that I diii not remeniber
distinctly about it, but that tl~ere were two of them at least-two yearlings-which I never received. aiid tiie others I could not speak of positively.
Q. ~~ow let me iliquile whether you understood that iiiquiry to be
made by Professor ~Iarsh in CODSC(lflCllCC of k?oinmissioner Smith's 1)ub
lie stateineiit of ~fay 29.
A. Yes sir; I u,iderstood that.  ~lien I met Professor ~1arsh again,
it was iii Bishop liare's room ill tlie hotel. There this question callie up
agaiii, and Professor ~Iarsli stated, in substai~ce, that I liad said that
I had received those cattle and issued them.  I told hi ill that I had
iiot said so; that I said I thought I hail not receipted for them, but
I could not remember distinctly.  lie then asked me, " 1f yon have received them, were they issued to the Indians ~"  I said "Probably they
were.'  lie then went to take it down, and then repeated over nearly
what he says there in tlie statei}ient.  I stopped hiin, and told him that
be willfully misinterpreted or misunderstood me.  I told him I thought
be was tryilig to make 111) a case against me, and he did not care how
be (lid it.  By that time Bishop flare got up and llut liis baud on me,
for I was getting very angry.  I said a good deal more, but that is the
substance of what I said to him about it.
Q. ~Yhat was Professor ~Iarsh's reply to your statement?
A. lie disclaimed ally intention of misrepresentilig or niisunder
standing me, and I apologizeil to liini for getting angry, and I let it pass,
supposing, of course, that he ba'l made the corre~tiou which I waiited
him to make.  Afterwards, on my way back, I stopped in Iowa. and
saw the man who had charge of the herd at that tiule, and lie tolil me
that these four were a part of tlie rejected cattle, and two were yearlings, (which of course did not require to be rejected,) and two were
milch-cows, one hcloiiging to ~Ir. P~eel, iiear (?lieyeniie, which I had
borrowed for n~y own use, and the other was a little mileb-cow, which
~Ir. Bosler had ~~rought lip for the herders.  They were both vely sniall
cows.
Q. NYcre these cattle which you say liad been rijected iiot`ifterwardS
issued by you to tlie Iiidiaiis as beef?
A. No, sir; never.
By the (?ll~iRMAN:
Q. Was all the flour you received here from tlie wagons weighed by
yoli here? 
407
~  All excei)t the first few ioad~. ~Ye would weigh, say ten sacks out
of tlie wagons, an~l then con'it the balance out, but all the first few
traiii.loads were 100-pound sacks. After that thcy were all weighed, and
they were of different weights: so no n~atter what wa~ the size of the
~~~ck~. I ouly receipted for so in any pounds of flour.
i3~ ~1r. FAVLKN~R:
Q. Can you state whether tlie acc~~uijts between yourself aiid the
~~overnuleut, and between yourself aiid ~Ir. Losler, touchiiig tlie stau~
i~cded cattle, have' yet been tlie snljeet ()f adjnstii0eilt aiid settleinelit
A. I cannot exactly.
~~. First, how is it as betweeli y-iirself;iiid tlie (1~~vei'lin0elit?  II~s
tli'i~ beel) settled ~
A. I suppose it has.
(~.Now, as to between you and;\~r. I)()5l(~I'
A. I did not niake atiy settlc~iient with;\lr. J,~~~ler.  I uiiderstood
that that matter was settled directly l~et'veel ThIi'. I~~)sler in~l the (i~overument.  I stated the fi~cts to tlie Coiiiiiiissioiler.  13osler an~l I had a
misunderstanding about it, aiid I nijderst;ijid he settled it persoiialiy
with the Government.  I suI)l)ose, however, thit if there liad been such
a settlement, I would have received itistructi()ns to receil)t to I~~~sler for
those beeves, in order to make iny aecolii1ts correct with tlie Goveriiinei~~, but I have not yet received any such ii~~trjicti()ns.
Q. Ilas ~Ir. Bosler your receipt for the 15~ cattle`?
k N0,5~  lle has ilo oiliei'Ll reeeil)t, but I believe I gave him a
memorandun  ceipt.
Clli~YENNL, ~V. T., ~~t~iid~~y, 1i~gust 23, 1S75.
Present: llon. THoMAS C. FL~TciiEv, chairniai~  lion. TIM()THY O.
HOWE, lion. B. ~T HAPRIs, IIoii. CiiAuLF-S J. FAULKNEP, and Prof.
GEORGE W. ATHERToN.
Dr. J. J. SAVILLE was recalled.
`By Mr. llA~Ris:
(?uestioii. In the letter of Mr. Simuel NV-~lker, dated ~Iay 19, 1S74, it
is stated that ~Ir. Bosler wrote lbr tlie signature of Dr. Saville two
receil)ts, dated October 1 and 15, 1S7:~, oiie of which, at least, was fraudnieiit. I want to inquire what you know concerllilig those receil)ts.
Answer. I gave ~Ir. Bosler two receipts for cattle in October, I thiiik
iii 1~73. I will have to look at iny books to verify dates.
Q. ~Vho wrote those receipts?
A. I wrote the receipts out and ~Ir. Bosler wrote the copy.
(~.~Vhy was that done?
A. The clerk was not present to write them, aiid ~~r. Bosler writes bet ter than 1(10, and I requested hiiu to copy the receil)ts for my signature,
-t ii (1 he did so.
Q.  ~Vere you present at the receipt of cattle in October, iS 3, that is
the time to which those receipts for cattle i'efer to?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.Did you weigh those cattle?
A. No, sir.
Q. ~Vho did?
A. ~Ve had no scales at that time to weigh cattle. ~Ve liad to receive
the cattle, and select out of the l~erd a certain number, and kill them
 
4()S
and w igh them, and av~ra~c the weight of all those received ~ron~
those.
Q.T~o yon reinen~ber tlie cir~'nii~staii~~c ()f receiving those cattle iii
October, 1S?3, particularly
~.N~~6, sir  not particulIrly.
(~. Could you tell liow 11i('11i~ were killed
A.I could llOt.  ~Ve usaally killed tUi)Ifl h~~e t t'veiity on those t\VO
occasions, I dou~t know exactly bow nially wele killed. The number
killed was the iiuinber r~~~1uired for Ilse by those who were receiving tile
meat. N\~e killed enough so (`15 to make aii average.  Tlie cattle selectetl
for the averige were usually selected l)y tlie bnt~'lier and by myself, and
sometimes by others whom I eniployed ibi' tlie purpose.
~? IJid you ever kill a niimb~r of cattle as an averiOc which were
sclectc~l by ~fr. b~osler, or either of the Boslers, as an average
A.No, sir.
~? Ilow soon di(l you get tlie scales up which are now there?
A.NVe got them up about tlie ini~~dle of.November, 1S7().
Q.Sii~ce these 5("ileS ii ave been put up, have all cattle been weighed?
~.~es sir  with tlie excel)ti(J10s t hive explained to you, and aiiother
tiuie ~vhen I received silule c~~ttle`~ liicli I could not get iiito the corral.
It was sliowilig very hard an(i we could iiot get theiii into the corral.
Q.I)id either of the ~Iessrs. Bosler at any time briiig you receilits
for cattle, written by himself or tlten~sc-lves, when you yourself tiad uot
~iipcriiiten~led the receiving of the cattle?
~.No, sir. The only instance in wlii~~li lie wrote a receipt was the
co~)yii)g of one or two receii)ts, wliicl~ I have exlil;iiued.
(~. ~1r. ~Valker also charges th('it ~fr. George;\I. 1~osler ke~~t tlie beefaccount of tlie agency while he was at I~ed Clt~uil.  1)iit;\lr. 1~isler ever
keep account of the beef?
N He li0ay have kept it for himself.
(). ~~~as there any time when he keli' aii a('('i)iiiit`111(1 \~ l~('l1 ~ ()il did
not ~
A.No. sir; I have iiot with nic tlie bc&f ai'i'(~uiit I't~r l~7~, ()r I might
show yoii.
Q.~\~lien was the first stau~pede of c;ittlc <`ift&'r yiiii l~ci';i inc;i gelit?
A.It was in tlie fall of 157:?, iii Oc~ol~~'i'. 1 liii~l tlie Stli of October;
about that tiii~e:1 tliiul tli;~t was tlie``ite.
~? IJ()w 1i1;iiiy weic st'iliil)eiled
A.I caiiii'~t remeii~l )ei' tlie ex;ict ii uiiil~cr ii()\" (?[` tit staiii l)cilc.  ~~~e
had rcccive~l a~i~)iit six 1ii~i~ilred head, (`ilitl li;i~i iii'i~le tlie i~sue`iiiil iii.'
recollectioii of it n()~~ is tli('1t it was i~ea uly i\~ur liiiii(li'('(l lie'iil. l)Iit I caniiot reii~eiab~~r tlie exai~t ii iiiiiber tlitit were staiiiI)cilcd  it`v:is`i n~at ter
of rcei~i~l. l)iit I did liot cli;irge iiiy lilcIlioly- ~~`itli it.  ~iNty~s(~veIi ot'
those ("Ltllt' w~'re cli'ii'~('(l to the G~,~ei'iiinciit.
(~. ~ii(l ~\ci'e they;ill~iwcd liaVilielit i'()i' them
~.~ly`t~~O~1it5 lia~-c l~c('il seiit iii. wit li <`ill tlie`` tliil'ivit5 iii tlie (~`~5~
anil a ~lioi't tillil';i   I ri'{'~-i veil ii{itii'e tli'i t a ilil i tiiiiial eviileiii'c woul~t
l~e r~~(iiiirc(l iii i e~ai'il to t lieu  which 1 hive iurnislie~l tlie 1)e~iai tiiii'iit.
(lild li~i~ ~ I)~it 1 e~ei~ e~l (i1I~ i)t )i)~ di ~ mlii  ~ et.  ~\f~ a~~ouiit~ t~)i tli~it
~~ear have ui)t l~ecii settli-il.
(~. It is clI'ii~t~~l } )y ~l~. N\~'i'k~ 1'. iii liis li't ter i)f ThI'iy I'.). 157:;. tli<'it
( ~i the 1.tith ()t' ( )i'1 i tict' ~ i;~i i'i~1't 1!ii'il tli;it yiiil i~~tieil tweli ty lii''id
~~f cittle, ~` heji. iii t~ct.`V 11 ~51'(('~l liii' ttle. ~~ Ii`it is tlic fict iii ri~~:1i ii to
that. if yoii reiiieiul~er
A.The fact 15 thit I wi iiiili'i cil ii ilate 1 lie ici-cilits 001 the I ~t aiid
the 15th of' tlie iiiouth. aiiil the il~tte iiiil hot al~' (`i~ 5 agi cc with t lie 
409
~ate of the receipt of the cattle received there.  I cannot say that I received any cattle oii that day.
Q. Do you flow renieinber that you received aiiy iiumbcr of cattle~15-between the 1st and 15th of ~)ct~il~er, 1S7~?
A. No, sir.  It was a day or two before aiid after that the cattle were
received.
Q. llow could it be after?
A. It could only be after by makiiig it so, as I understood the fl{~nirement was that the receipts should be uiade iii that way.
Q. I)i(l you ever give ally re~eipt before you received the cattle I
A. No sir.
t? ilow caine that receii)t to be got before the cattle were issued -?
A. It was not.  The receipt was really dated back to the 15th, 50 if I
received cattle after the 15th which were receipted for on the 15th, tlie
occeipt was dated back.  I never receii)ted for aily cattle th;tt were not
received.  I ain sure of that.
(~.Did you know that ~fr..I~o~ler did not ii ave that receii)t iii his
possession, delivered to him by you
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it iii accordance with your recollection that that receipt of Oetober 15th covers cattle received after that da~-?
A. I have no recollection that it does.
Q. Do you say that there Ii ave been instaiices of that kind. where cattie have been recei~)ted for after they have been issued?
A. I would tot say positively.  I have no recollection of such a thing,
but it may have hal)pened.
Q. llave you ever given tlie same explaiiation of this fact before?
A. Yes, sir. to the noen wlio iiovestigated those charges.  I think it
has been in print.  It certaiiily has becit iii writilig.
Q. Did you know why it i required tli~it your receipts should be dated
the 1st and 15th of tlie 110010th I
A. I did loot but after the iiivestigation I niade inquiries about it, and
the comnoission said they did iiot think it ~~`as a ilecessary regnlatioio, but
that the receipts should be gi veii twice a 111(110 tli. After that I dated receipts
on the day the cattle were received. or, iii some iii stances, a few days
afterward. If the cattle were received a d~iy or two before, I woulil d~te
them on the first oftie month.
Q. ~Vill your books sliow tlie ex~iet l'Iy oli which the cattle were received ~
A. I think not on that tinok.
(~.NYas that book lelit iii tlie ~`iiiie n~i11i1ei ill which y()u ~I~C receipts?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.~Yhat is the eliai (~(tCI' of' lie 10(11?
& Just the same kii)(l (it a liiii}k' I Vi iii liavi~. iiiily it i~ aiiotlier l)oi)l~.
(~.~~ill you furiiisli a tioll (()~)y (ir ti';tii~~i'riIit ot that bool~. aii~l for ward it to this comnoi~~i~~ii
A. Yes, sir  I will d~i ~ii.
~? ~1r. L~ F. ~Yaltei's te~ti ti('(l bet\ii'~ tlii  I iiili'iii ~?oniiiiittei (1~ tlie
IIOlljSC of l~~epresentatives that lie iie~ii'il 1 )r. S;i~'ille 5(15 thit li&' Q'('iVC
ri~ecipts Some days ill (ldV('iiiCC of ttie 4i'liveiy (it' i'attle, &c.   I~t) yoi~
k iiow;inytliing abont that st;iteiiieiit
A. Nothincr, oiily I (`iSked ~lr. N\~itters N~ lilt lie lilCilit l\N ~o<q~'iiir that
stateiiieiit, when he retiiiiieil. (`111(1 lie (Xl 1; jii('(l tli;it lie was ilil ~ii(liii  to
~ii;il~e the explanatioii that I have  ist iii('i(lC to 5'()li: ili'it is. tli<'it tlie le cei1its were ~iat~d the 15th. tiiil tlie cittlc ~vere il~'livereil at'ter\V;ii'(l.
 
410
(~.~)id you ever?\(`~~ to?\fu. ~~~ ii tens th(~t yO[i ~~V~ the reeeiI)t~ so~ue
ilyS iii`1(IV~1)CC of the lelivery ~r the e'~ttle
~. I (11(1 Ilot.  I ~ioii~t reiiieiiil~er ever`1;iving sai~1 illytililig <tb()~lt it
flitil ~`~tter lie fl1('~~1C tli~t st;itein~~iit.
~? II&'l~~e you iu aiiy ~I1st('111CC  ivUll r(~eeij)~S f~r ~iiyt1iiii _  b~~~~re ic
eei1it )f tlie irtieles t{ieiiiseives
A. No sir.
~? I~et inc enil your attciiti~~ii t() the receipt ~ivCi1 to Thr~. ~fc(?aiiii.
I~id you Iiot give lii in sonic receipts for C(ittlC ~vheu it apl)e'LrS there ~vcre
Iio c;ittle t)urcliased?
~. No, sir. I ~ill explain that.  I iiiade a coiitract with ~rr.;\[c(?aiiii
to i)iii~ti~ise sou~e ~a~~ous aiid cattle, by authority of tlie Coiuiiiissioiier
of Iii(liin AtThiiis.  There ~vere to be t~venty-eiglit cattle, teii N\agoiis,
a'i~l t\veiity cows advertised for. They were to be ~1elivered to tlie storel~eei)er at (?ii~~yeiine on a certain day.  I agreed that, on the delivery of
those e;~~tle here, tlie vouchers should be delivered to ~Ir. ~Ic(?aun. The
vou~~lier~ were made out at tlie office  they were selit here to the storekce~~er. and the cattle were not delivered on that diy aiid the vouchers
~vere ietui.ue~l to me at oiice to tlie agelicy.
~? J)id you iiot write that the CittIC had bee~ I)nrchased?
A. Yes sii'.  I wr~~te to the (iominissioner of Indian Aft)~irs that the
catt)e weic puueh~ise~l, as I b~~lieved.  I was a little fast iii writilig that,
but I supposed they lia~l heen purchased. "I was ahea~l of the houiids.~'
I desci i~ied the cattle and wagons iii that letter.
~~ You ~lesciihed cattle which you bad never seen?
A. No, sir.  I did not descrihe the cattle at all.  It was understood
that tlie cattle weic Amci~caii cattle.
(? You wrote that letter, which is on file iii tlie Departineiit, l~efore
you bnd seen the cattle ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you not issue a voucher for them ~
A. No, sir; I iiever did.
~? Did he (~1r. ~IcCaiin) furiiisli the cattle, and wagons., aiid tlie cows
which that coiitraet calle~l f()r?
A. No, sir.
(~.I want you to be CX1)licit, Doctor, because you ulideistilid this point
has been made tiI)Oii you, and we`vint to underst~nd your e~plaiia~ion.
A. I can say nothiiig, only this: As I told you, they were selit here to
the store.keeper. and I suppose~I they were all delivered iii thilt wav.
(~.~N~hat autlioi'ity had your store~keeper over the question of r~~ecting or receiving the cattle wagoils, au~l cows?
A. lie had 110 autliorit; except that which I gave lii iii.
(~.~Vas there anybody here to determine tlie (luestion whether these
receipts should be given to ~Ick?anii?
A. (~nly the store-keeper.
Q. IIa~l he aiiy authority other than to see to delivering the reccil)ts
wlieii the number of oxen. wa~ons, and cows were turned over to him?
A. Only tlie authority whicti I gave liim.
Q. Did he have any authority from anybody except you to inspect
and accept those cattle?
A. No, sir.
Q. ~Vas any inspector i)rovided for by the contractor`.~
A. No, sir.
Q. ~Vere there any other bid~lers for that contract excel)t Mr.?\IcCaun?
A. I caiinot say just now. 
411
Q. Do yon rerne~ber how long th(~t was a4verti~~~~?
A. No, sir.
Q. ~Vas it ad~~~rtised?
A. Yes. sir.
(~.~N~as that contra~t nnnulle~~i in aiiv ~v'~v
A. It was never earrie~i ii~to efi~~t.
~? ~Vere tl~ose cattle, wagons, and cows ever supl)lied to tli3 Iiidians?
A. Tiie cattle and wagons w~r~, biit not tlie cows  bnt liot by ~Ic
(?ann. nor by any contract which I nia~le, excel~t a req nest I 1i)<'i(l~ to
the (fonimissioner of Indian Affairs. The fiiiliire to g(~t those thiiigs
~reated so ninch dissatisfactioii that I asked l)erniissioii to biiy tlien~ in
oiieii niarket, and I did so.  The coiituaet I in~ide with ~Ic(~aiin was a
written contract.
Q. ~Vhy was it not carried iiito eflect?
A. I doii't know.  Oiie trouble`v('15 that lie f<iiled to get tlie wagons.
They were to be the Studabiker`v'i~on, ajid oli (`iCCOillit of 5oine
~lestrnetion by fire of tlie shops he fiiled to get them. No attenil)t was
ever made to enforce the peiialties of the contract.
Q. Yoii say then that yon caine here aiid went with ~Ir. ~Ic(?ann aiiil
two other gentlen~en to a raiieli in tlie neigliborhooi{, about twenty
miles northwest from here, to see sonic of ttie cattle that were to be
flirnished nuder that contract by ~Ir. ~IcCaiiii?
A. I did not see all of them. I understood that ~[r. ~rcCatin iii tended
to pnrchase the ranch aiid all tlie cattle. And having seeii a portion
of the cattle I wrote the letter which is now oli file in tlie Department,
describing the cattle; but, afterwards, ~Ir. ~IcCann having failed to
comply with the contract, ~fr. Applctoii purchased other cattle at one
hundred dollars, which was less iii price than I agreed to pay ~IcCann.
They were, however, poorer cattle aiid of less value, but iio part of the
cattle which ~Ir. Appleton purchased were tlie same cattle which I had
seen. They did just as well for the Indians. The wagons purchased
were less in price, but they were the "Bai~ wagon," and not tlic kind
of wagon which ~Ir. McCann had contracted to fnriiis}i.
Q. Now in regard to the stampede of October 8, if that was the time
you lost the four hundred cattle, how soon did you recover all but sixtyseven I
A. It was not until in November that we reeovei'ed theiii.  ~Ye did
not recover them all at oiice.  I hail iny iii cii all over the conlitly f~)r
three or four weeks hunting tlie cattle.
Q. llad you any cattle on hand after tlie stampede of the 15th of O~tober~
A. I doii't remember, sir.:\Iy ilnl)ressioIl is that there were.
Q. You issued in October, as al)pears by this letter, twelve liuiidred
cattle ~
A. Yes, sir  I think that is the ii ii inber I issneil 011 that date.
Q. Did you have, duriiig the niontlis of ()~tober and No vein ber, as
ninny cattle in your possession as you actually isstie(l, which liad beeii
regularly received aiid receipted for?
A. Yes, sir; I bad them iii my possession. Tlie ii umber for which I
receipted had beeii in }iossessioii after tlie stanipede.  I did not have
men enough to take care of the herd of cattle, an~l at the same time go
off through the country to 11 ii iit ni those cattle, aiid by aii arrangeuient
with ~Ir. b~osler I returned the cattle iiito liis her~l with tlic uii~lerstiiiding that I should scud to liis herd and get them  out wlieii the~ " ere
required for issue.
Q. ~Vhat cattle did you return to ~Ir. joMer's herd? 
412
~. The ~att1e ~vhi~Ii h;~~1 t)CCH i)i~ket~ llj), \VI1i~I1 1i;~~I IU~) a~vay.  ~[r.
Bo~Iei'~s ll)CIl g~there~i ~ goo~t ll)('~!)~ of them  HI);1H( repor~~( it to I1)C.
(~.Theii yoti retnin~d to ~Ii. L~~l~'.~~ lICi(1 all btit sixty-st veli of tlie
~vhole i~niii1~er stain1~~~et1?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.Xow, arter they hatl bee'i returnetl to liis herd, tlj(l ~`~-ou obtaiii
from lini ai~ equalainouitofbeef~
A. I took them fi-on~ hiiii as I tli(I the Otl)CU5.  It was a very large herd,
and the average was about the sanie, ai~d I took the cattle at the saiiie
as I had receipted for theiii.  I took them l~y couiit all arouiid.
Q. ~~~as that (lurili _ tlie month of Novenil~er, be~ore tlie close of the
n~onth?
A. Yes. sir  before tlie Cfl(l of the month he h~id retii}iie~l all the lost
cattle excel)t sixty-seven, by count si!iiply.  I was iiot l)resent wl~eii the
c'tttle were returiied.  I was in N~~ashington duiiitg tlie iiioiith of Gctoher with the Cheyeiines.
Q. Do you know of your own knowledge that there were received
three hundred aiid thirty-three cattle, or thereabonts, for which no new receipts were giveil to ~Ir Bosler?
A. Not being preseut at that time I caniiot say that I know it of my
owii knowledge. I ii ave to depend upou my einploy(s who were carrying
on the business at the time.
Q. N\~ho were preseilt at the time the cattle were returned to you?
A. ~Ir. Appleton at that time was there putting up the agency buildings, anti I left him in charge fora few tlays i'ntil liiss()ii arrived, wlio was
my clerk, aiid who took possessioli of the lgcnQv aiitl the busiuess from
that time.
(~.Is there any record in your otlice of tlie ret~irn of that iinmber of
the stami)etled cattle?
A. I don't think there is any reconl that will show tlie iiiimber, cxcept tlie tCCOt(1 of issue ()f thoSe who issue(l tlie cattle.
Q. So that iii poiiit of tact Bosler was iiowhere ~-liarged iH ~our books
with the iiuinl)&-r of cattle which were driveii back t') his hertl, nor
credited with the same uuiiiber which ~-ere returnetl ~
A. No, sir.
(?.Do yoit r~iuen~bcr whether you made tlit issue of cat tIc oii the 1.jtli
of (~)ctober
A. I thiiik not.  I tliiiik it was a few lays after, just`vli(~i1 I was at
teiuptiiig to ii~ake those Iii~liaiis coiiseiit to let inc coiiiit tlicir lo~lges
It was a~ tl~e tiu~e they took iiie dowii t() tlie ~i~~ii~~.  I w:is about
cight miles iroii~ the agelicy. aii~l they took i~ie tl()\vii tlici't~.  ~ I)ortioii
of tlie IH(liins wanted to ~lrive inc out of the coiiiitiv, but (`i 1)Oi~t~Oii o~
theni stood by n~e aii~l preveiiteil it.
Q. Do you rcincuiber wlieii ~Ir. Sainucl ~\~alkcr visitcd tlie agtiicy?
A. I was abseiit at the time.
~? ~fas no record been iiia~le of cattle "hicli weic issii(~ii wli~~ii lie was
here, l)y y{)n or your clerk
A. No, sir.
Q. 1)id you iiial-e aii~- rccor~ls ifter you Ye iii)~~(l.`11)111  iv l)rivate
accounts?
A. Ni). sir.
~?- I)). ~. \N~a1 tt~rs testi ticit li{~ it tlie I iiili~ii ( )ii0iii~t~(~( t)f ~lie 1~ii ited
States II()use of Jelii'est~iit;itives, tli;it lie he'ir~i l)i. ~~i \~il le sly he gilve
tlie 1.ecei1its 5()ilie l;iys iii advaiice of the (leli V(~i'~ of tlie c~i ttle,;iiiil (15
there was ilo lieril it tlie ~i~CiiC~ aft$r tlie st alilicile 11 tlie ~tli of Octobei, (iHd is tli~ hel(l )t t~'it (l(itC (ittCY the dcliv cry t() tlie agelit of )9 
413
lead numbered only 4Oo', according to the chief herder's written stateii~ci~t, wJ0iCl I hold, it is clear that 1,2S0 head had iiot been received n~>
to aiid including October 8, as ~osler swears.  It is equally Ucar
that if oiily 647 head had been r~ceive4, two issues had not beca made,
<i th~ ageilt says, (page 23,) of 2(37 head a~~d 3(30 head on the 1st aii&1
8th of October, respectively.  For, if so, be could  100t have liad (after
de4ti~ti!)Q 7)27 head, issued October 1 and ~, from (3~7 received, anil
eleveii head on hand October 1, total (3.j8) 40(3 head ~tampe~le~l oli tlie
iiight of October 8, as there would have l~eeu oiily 131 hea~l left after
tlie i~~ues.  Do you know what the facts are iii regard to that?
~. No, sir; I don't remember ~~bout that f~ct.
Q. \Vere you present when tlie issue of October 8 was niade
A. Yes, sir; I was present.  I doii't reineniber whether I male tlie
i'~~tie myself or ~Ir ~Valters ~~ade it, or one of the othems; sonietiines I
~~~~ul~l Ii ave tlie butcher inake the issue, or oiie of the other ijieli when I
(li(l hot feel able to go dowu there.
(~.Do you kiiow ~r the number given here is tlie exact ii umber of the
~`attle stampeded?  Does that serve to refresh your rec~~l1ectioii of the'
ii ii inber stampeded? ~Yas it not a(37 which was stampeded?
A. I think- that that (5(37) is a correct stateuient.  It was taken front
tlie records aiid gives the exact number.
Q. From your own knowledge you will not now say whether that 5(37
head of cattle were ever returned or not?
A. No.  I have to depend npon the statemeiit of my employ(s, an~~
the return they make to me.  I have notliiiig but their records.
Q. You say you were not preselit aiid yoti canuot say that the 5(37
were not returiie~l; there is hO record?
A. I have i)othing excei)t the statemeiit of my emp}~ve's and the returns which I have made to N\~ashiiigtoii.  These retiiriis are vouched
for by affldavits-soji~e of them at least.  In n~y ft~rmer testimoity I wa&
iii error.  I think it is near (300 that were stampeded.
By Mr. FAVLKNLR:
Q. There are some parts of Professor Thfarsh's statemei~t which I
would like to know something of from you. He states that J. D. Bevier,
Viiited States Iu~lian in spector, iii his report of October 21, 1874, exi)05ed a frauduleiit contract made by Dr. Saville with his father-in-law,
J\Ii. AI)l)letoii, by which the ~~overiimeiit would have beci' tite loser.
~\~ill you please exl)laiii what that tran~actioii was.
A. It was in tlie fall, getting l;ite on toward cold weather; niy houses
were itot complete~l, aiid I was anxious t() get t item  fiiliAlle(l fbr the
eiii~~loye's and ntvself to Sled) iii before wiuter.  I talk-ed to the carl~ei1teIs at the ag'ency and ~thers iii regar~1 to fiitisliiiig ttie buildings,
aiid flit ally asked ~fr. Ap~~leton to make aii estiiitate ()f wh;tt it`v0Ol(i
eo~t to flitisli these buildiitgs; and ite sat ~lo'vu aiid made ait estiiitate,
<`tiid ~~roposed to do the w or  oit these buil~liit~s-to build slau~hterli~}u.~e titti corral, himself-for such a si iii.  ~~~ell, e(~iitit'iiiiig that with
~v1iat I liad done before, I consi~le iC (1 it a 1 e~t~t)iial)le I,rol)()sitioil, aitd I
sent tite l)roI)osals on to the Goutntissi~~iiei' ()f Iiitliaii Ail'iii's, st'.itiii~ to
itini tite urgency of' having the ~~ oik doite, <`iit~l I stited that wh'ttever
`vi done should be d~~ne immediately.  ~n~} the ~ oinini.~~i()it~i Il)pro\ ed
tlte l)r(?I)osals of ~Ir. Ap~~letoit, 111(1 011 those i)rol)osals, wit ii tl)e`tl~i~roval
ot tlte ~`oinmissioit er of Indiait ~tI'airs, I inai~e tite ~i~ittract \~ ith    Al)
l)l('tOil.  lit tite n~eait tittie, I)r. 1~evier can~e ii etc, aitd lie coitsi~leretl the
I ii cc for the work too high, aitd tiSkell iIt& t() susi)eiid tite work.  lIe
wanted tile to modify the pric(', and I tol~l lii iii I woul~l do ito such 
414
t1iiii~.  I I1~(~ passc~1 jn~1gn~ei~t upon it, aii~I I coiisidcreil tlie pric~ re'isoii'~b1e in eveiy I(SpUCt 1)Ut ii' li( cotiltl iii~1uce ~1r. ~p1)1Ct()I1 to t'1i('tIi~C
hi~ prices nii(i to do it fo'r niiy less, I ~v'~s 1)elfeetly ~(`~t~5tiCd it could
in~tke iio diflerence to inc but if tie ~voul~I iiot`1j)~~OVC the coiitr'ict, I
(i~kCd lii in to su~pen~l tlie ~v~~rk.
~? J)i(l lie exercise liis antliority to susi)eii(l tlie work
A.tIe did not, biit l~e h;id`~ tilk with ~Ir. Appleton bcfoie lC'~Viii
flie ngeiicy, and I uuderstoo~l that ~Ir. Aiit)letou n~a~le some modificttioii of the price, which met tlie al)proval of Di'. I))cvi~r aiid tlie I~octor
asked n0e, in ~en~liiig tlie COlitrict, to ~end it tlirou~h him; (`i\id I sat
down anil wrote the coiitract, (`lild sent it to the Coininis~ioncr of Indinit
Aff'.iirs through the Doctor.
Q.Did you make known to the Cornmissioi~er what the price of the
wori was to be?
~.Yes, sir; the price wa~ specified on each kind of work.
(?. Can you nuw recolle~t what it cost the Government t~ erect those
buildings?
A.I caiinot recollect all of it; moSt of it was for finisl~iug buildiiigs
partly ci ected; for instance, u~ aking and laying shiiigles cii the roof at
nine dollars a th0nsa'~d for making and laying them on the roof.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.Di~t that change ill the proposed plan, after Dr. Bevier's objection,
ap~~ear of record in your letter-book?
A.Tlie full partienlars are filed in the Indian Office, in my correspondence with that Department.
(~. You said that you calculated that the mill ~-onld not saw more
tbaii fifteen hundred feet of lumber a day, and it required five or six
men to saw it, and th at was the reason you accepted ~Ir. Appleton's
proposal?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Does that mill now saw more than five or six thousand feet a day?
A.No, sir; it never could saw more than three thousaiid feet a day.
It could iiot average three thousand since it has been there.  The mill
is calculated to saw that much, but it has never done so with the best
material.
Q.How many "squaw men, popularly socalled, do you employ at the
agency?
A.I think it is about ten.
Q.Do you see any reason why a white man, who lias seeii fit to
marry an Indian wife, should not support his family without the help of
the Government?
A.No, sir; I do iiot.
(~. Do you know any reason why every man who has an Indian fi~mily,
drawing rations from yonr agelicy, should not be discharged ~
A.~Vell, the only reason is, that I need men to do the work, and those
men I retain there are useful.
Q.Are not all the men you employ there interested to obtain all they
can in the way of supplies from the Goverunieiit?
A.I would say that is greatly owing to the iiidividnal character of tlie
men.  Their families draw the rations, some of them, aiid they live with
their fi~n~ilies, and receive wages when employed by inc.
Q.In your judgment, is not the whole matter of cniploying that class
of men of doubtful expediency?
A.Yes, sir; it is.
Q.Could it not be renie~lied by the employiuciit of white men 
4~5
Could yon net get white men from the Stites tli~it would peiforin the
work ~vhich thuy do?
~. Yes, sir  but the experience of those n~eii livii0~ with tlie Indians
lia~ beeii a n~ntter of consideration with n~e.  1 have brought good men
here troni th~ States, but most of them ha~~e left because they were diso'u~ted.
Q. Do i~ot niost of these men assist to corrupt and demoralize the
In~~iaii women?
A. ~1any of them act just as the Indiaiis do.  They follow the Iiidian
castoii~~, aiid eltim the right to marry as many squaws as they watit to.
(~.Now, then, will not a white maii n~arry as many squaws as lie
ca'i, so as to draw rations froni the ~overninent?
A. Yes, sir  th~v will.
(~.Are you not at tlie mercy of that class of men if you discharge
them?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.I~ iiot every agent so at their ni~rey?
A. Yes, sir; it is one of the greatest evils connected with tlie agenQy.
(~.~Vhat is the effect and jufluence of these meit upoit the Indiaiis, (t5
iffects the relations of the Indians to the Goveriimeiit?
A. The effect is to constantly breed dissatisfaction with tlie Government aniong the Indians, and to mislead the Indians in regard to their
promises, and the duties of the Government toward them.
Q. Do you think that the Indian agents themselves would ii ave
any difficulty in discharging the duties of their office if they banished
every white man connected with the agency?
A. I think it would be very hard for toe to do so at my agency.  It
might be done.
Q I notice you employ several of them as interlireters.  Are they
employed the year aroutid upon a salary?
A. No, sir; the only interpreter I have there that I can rely upon is
that little half-breed, ~Villiam Ganiet.
Q. Is it safe to rely upon the interpretation of those squaw-in en where
their own interest is involved?
A. No, sir; not generally.  I don't want to condemn every man either.
There are some of them that, so far as I have been able to ju~ige, have
beeii true, but many of them have not.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. ~~hat would be the effect ul)oi~ the temper of the Indiaiis if there
was an order expelliiig from the reservation all these squaw-men?
A. I think the Indians would rebel against it very strongly, at least
at the beginning.  I have had it great deal of trouble with these
Indians.  P~ed Cloud thought that I should discharge every man that
was not a half-breed or a squaw-mali.
Q. In your judgment, "-as not i~ed Q'I{)\id instigated to iiiake that request by the squaw-meil?
A. Yes, sir; one man I had evideii~e etiotigh agaiiist to scud out of
tlie country, and that man was Johii N~ls~~n  aiid I also have evidence
of some others.
Q. There is s')me evidenec that tlie fi~males of the Cheyeni~e and
Aiapahoe tribes, more particularly tIic Ai;ipalioes, are I)rostitiitetl by the
white iiieii coming to live iit tlie ucigliboihood of the agelicy.  1)o you
uudefl~t1ii(l that to be true?
A. ~Vell, that is just tlie common report.  I have never seen anything
of it  Tlie oiily fact I liave got of thilt i~ind is that of a Sioux Indian 
416
COIi)iIi~ t~ nie aiid ~ny iig that tlie soldiers caine to liis tejice while lie was
<i\V~y ~ii(l iii~iilted his ~oiiiaii, aiid he ~iSlic(t iliC to ~vrite a letter
liiiii, ~~r~Ieriii~ everv ~ol~lier to ~tav away from  liis tel)eC aiid if he
tiid iiot li~`vonld slio~t hi in h~eaiise he said lie was iiot wailting any
tiotible, btit lie would;ho~t tn'v 111(111 that wonl(i not stay a'v'~y.
~? Have yoii`v()ur~elF. ever ina(~e aiiy t~it.orts tt) ~)rCvCnt tlie toen
eni jiloyed at the ~~Ci) ~y t~oni hold iiig iin proper iii tercotirse ~~~itli tli e
Ni('i~iihOC wonien ~
:~. I have liot.  I conl~I ~C ii() w<iy to do it myself.
Q. Is it not a iii'ttter ~r ~oiiinioii rej)ort that su~h tliiiigs aic taking
i~lace fiequcittly
A. Yes. sir  it is son~ethiiig I have always heard from the Arapahoes.
~? Have yon ever ~liseiiargeil aiiy man from yonr employ who was
&.lJ~ii~'(~4l ~vitii that ()ft.elise ~
A. No, sir I h;tve ii ever kiiown of any of iny eiii~iloy(s being charged
I li;ive heaid of it bcing (lOliC ~)y the soldiers.
fly Mr. FAULKNER:
(~.Has ilo auth~~ntic case coiiie to your knowledge ot' such iiiiproper
iiit~r~ourse with Iii~tian woilieti by tlie citiployc's of the ageilcy, directly
or iiidirectly?
& No, sir.
(?.You say you have made no attempt to correct these evils?
A. Uj) to this tiiiie it lias heel) very difficult for me to attempt any
thii.g of that kind.  The Indians now are gettiiig into a state that somc
tliiiig can he done, aiid they can be disciplined.
~? Do you say it is aii adiiiitted fact that such things have takeit place
at tlie agencv?
A. Not at`the ageiicy, but I don't know what the men may do when
they get out aiiioiig them.
B~ Mr. IfOWE:
Q. ~~hat bas been the j~ractical difficulty to prevent some effbrts to be
made to remedy this evil?
A. It was, ti'rst, the wild disposition of the Indians. A great deal of
the time while I have beei) there a man could not go out alone among
tlie Indians.  The iiext difficulty arose fiom the class of men that I have
been obliged to cia ploy to (10 the work. I cared niore for a man that
could stand by iiie 011(1 handle a pistol than I cared about liis morals.
~? Di(l you understand that the ~eiiiper of tlie Indiaiis was such as
made it unsafe for von to atteml)t to break tip such i)ractices? Did the
Indiaiis favor such practices
A. I don't know that they did, except that of white mcii taking In
dian wives they did fi~vor that.  Aniolig the Arapaliocs this practice
his been a comi~on matter for years, but ainolig flie Sioux it lias iiot
that is, I don~t know that it lias existed.  I don't know of anything of
this kind beiiig doiie at tlie agency. I don't kiiow tlie pr'tctice to be
coiiiiiioii, though it is reported to have been so for fifteeii years.
Q. Do you understand it to be conimon ainoiig the Arapahoes?
A. I don~t kiiow anythiiig about it, except by comiiion rcl)ort.
Q. Is it the commoii reporr that the practice prevails aii)oiig tlie Aralialiocs?
k Yes, sir; it is.
(~.Now, do you iinderstati~l that the ~rapalioe In~liaiis would resent
an attempt on the part of tlie Indian agent to put an end to this practice?
A. No, sir. 
417
(~.Then tbe Ii~dians therns~Ives do not interpose aiiy obstacle in the
~i~ ~r your breaking up the I)raetiee?
A. They do.
~? ~Vhat ob~taele do th~v interpose I
A. Aiiy change or interfereiice with th' nieli \VlJ() li~~e alnulig then),
or in ~eiieral ter~ns, any change of afl~iis which (`t!1~'CtS theii~.
Q. The mcii we speak of don't live among them; it is ~ne eml)l~yes of
the ((iglicy we are speaking about.
A. 1 doii't believe that tlie einj~loye's ~re geiterally gnil~y of such ~~ractiC(~5 of comi))erce with the Indian wo~neii.
(~.J~o yon believe, theii, that that coi)~i)ierce is confiiied to the white
inen who live among the Indiaiis entirely
~. I stippose not etitirely, biit nien may come in there.  There are
l)eol)le cotiling in an~l travelitig through all the time, atid there are the
sold~ers who are stationed there  they all may do s~~.  I doii't know of
it.  I don't know whether aiiy I)C~50i1 has ever been iii that camj~
Thei~ i~ a common report that such is the case.  I have bad no specific
inf)riiiatiun or charges against any person.  I iiever heard of aiiy one
iiidividn;il doing so, CXCC1)t the case of the Sioux speakitig of flie soldier~.  1 don't believe anythiiig about it, because I don't kijow anythiiig
about it.  If it is common it is Lot confilied to those who live amotig
theni, but to the teainsteis aiid j)eople who come with the trains aiid
the sol~liers and persons of that kind.  Tiie accusations have not been
brought against aiiy persons, except the getieral report that the An~pahoe women are prostitutes, and that is all I kiiow of it.
(~.Atid you have taken no steps to ascertain with whom that prostitution is carri'ed on?
k No, sir; I have not.
Q. Now, Doctor, you s;iy aiiother difficulty iii your way of investigat
itig this matter is that you caiiiiot dispense With the services of some of
your euiploy~s?
A. That has been the case for the last two years.  I speak not of any
liarticular man, l~ut ot the class of men I have ha~l to employ there.
Q. Btit you say yoii don't believe your empl~~ (Is practice that intercourse?
A. ~~ell, what I meaiit to say is that nolie of them are particularly
ad(licted to it.  They may J)ractice it possibly without lily kiiowiiig it.
Q. Do you not believe that your employ(Is practi~e that intercourse ~
A. I say that I don't believe they do.
Q. Now, if the empl~ves do not I)ractice that intercourse themselves,
then the indispensability of their services docs not pleSeLit an obstacle
to your breaking it @
A. The necessity for eniploying the~e men is ati ob.~tacle, iiot because
they practice that intercourse, but because they will not aid in investigating and exposing the practice.
Q. Ilow many of those squaw-men have you iii your eini~loy
A. Ten, I believe.
(Q.liow are they employed ~ In what capacity?
A. ~Vell, one man that you n~et is called a 5(J~i~- in aii, and is iny ceik;
that is, he married a half-breed; the next is the butcher aiid the sawyer:
the iiext are the two herders, the blacksmith, and oiie interl)reter; th(tt
is all I can think of.
~? Have you the authority of ally law for the em~~l~iyincnt of all these
persoiis at tlie igency ~
A.  I have the Authority only of the Sceictiry of the Iliterior.  I be.)7 I F 
418
lieve tl~ere is no law prescribiiig them except th~ orders and regnlatiolls
of the Department.
Q. Out of what fund ar~ those employ~s paid
A. They are i)aid otit of dit1~rent funds part of tl)C1ll out of the fund
for employ C's  another out of the fun(l appropr ated for interpreter or
clerk, and some others are paid from the incidental fund  and two are
now paid out of the benetici~il flind.  They are eiiipioyed for the purpose
of teachin~ the Indialis, aiid aiding them in commencing their work of
farmiiig, and showing them how to plow.  They have been employed for
two months.
Q. Have you a fund or appropriation made distinctively for employ~s?
A. No sir.  Iii traiisiiiitting funds to me the Interior Department instructs i~ie as to what persons or ei~ployt's are to be paid. I scud a report
of every ehaii~e of empl~ve's which I make.  I am not certain whether
the l(L'v in inakilig appropriations uses the expression  employ~s" or
not, but it is n~e~l by tlie Interior Department iii their instructions to
me, aii~l I keep the acconilt under that head.
By ~1r. FAULKNER:
Q. Does the Secretary of the Iiiterior, in transniittin~ that amount,
in~licatc the amount of salary to be paid to each em~~loye'?
A. No. sir.
Q NVli;it salary do you pay your clerk?
A. lie was 1)('i~d ~t,~OO per annum until the 1st of July; since that
tiiiie he has been getting.~1,()~().
Q. Is that amount allowed froin your own judgment of his services, or
does it cou~e froii~ ai)y order of the Secretary of the Interior?
A. It comes from the Coii~missioner of Indian Aff~irs.
Q. Do you regard your preselit clerk as a competent clerk?
A. Not such a one as I would like.  I would like to have a man more
coiiipetent to keep accounts~quicker and more accurate.
Q. Ought not that salary of ~l,OOO enable you to employ a competent
and skilffil clerk at tlie agency?
A. I thiiik iiot, but I propose to try.
By Mr. IIO~E:
Q. You say that clerk is p;tid out of the incidental fund?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you an iiicidental fund appropriate(i by law?
A. Yes, sir; I think it is by law for the incidental expenses of different agencies.
Q. Have you a fund appropriated for the incidental expenses of your
agency?
A. Yes, sir; that is my recollection.
Q. N\'ho are tlie mcii ~ousay are paid out of the l~eneficial flind?
A. There are two iiien wlio, I understand, are paid out of the beneficial fuiid; they are those mcii who were employed to assist tlie Indians
this spring in their work, aiid two of them are still employed iii assistilig them in hayiiig.
Q. You say you understood they are paid out of the beneficial ftind ~.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You pay them yourself, do you iiot?
~~. Yes, sir; it is seiit to iiie iii that way for bei~eficial purposes.
(~.Do you know whit that appropriation was last vear?
A. I do not.
Q. I waiit to ask you a question or two abont that saw-mill. Do I understand you to say that it will not cut more than ~3,()OO feet per day? 
419
A. No, sir; it will not, under the most favorable cilcnmstajices, cut
more than that much.
Q. What was the cost of the mill?
A. I don't know.  It was bought before I weiit there.
Q. What is the size of the engine?
A. It is a fifteen~horse~power
Q. What are the dimensions of the cylinder aiid the length of the
stroke ~
A. It iS a" Blandy" fifteen~horse~power portable saw-mill.
Q. liow large a saw do you run?
A. I think it is a 32 or 34 inch saw.
Q. How many men do you empl~y in the mill?
A. It requires six men in the iiill, i~icludiiig tlie eligineer, aiid usu~lly
one man for stacking lumber and iu scaling aiid getting logs on tlie
W(t~5.
(~.Can you describe what particular labor those different men perform~
A. N\~lI, one is the engineer, one is a sawyer and saw-setter. another
I think they call the scaler, another "-heels the s;twdust, aliotlier man
carries the lumber to the mill, and there is anotljer inan employed in
sn~king the logs and getting them on the ways and st~cking lnn~ber.
Q. When did you say you applied for this permissioli to l)urchase
oxen, cows, and wagons for the use of the Indians to engage in agriculture?
A. It was last winter some time. I doii't retnember the date without
referring to my letter-book.  It was some time before the permisson was
given to pnrchase them.
Q. Well, when was that permission given?
A. I don't remember now.
Q. When did you make the purchases of i~Ir. i~IcCann?
A. I had one paper which if I could get I would make sojije calculation
and could tell you, but I can't remember dates.  It was before
Prote&~or Marsh was here.
Q. N\~ll, what time in fact did you get the oxen?
A. I got the oxen in September or October.  Tire permission was
granted some time in the latter part of the wii~ter or spring of 1874.
Their I had to purchase other things to get those Indians to work in the
spring, and when the permission came it was very late in the sl)ring,
and I was in a hurry to get some cattle for the purpose of breaking some
groujid for the Indians, arid for this purpose the contract was made;
and when we failed to get the cattle, I used the agency team to break
some ground for the In~lians.  The Indians were very much dissatisfied
and discontented in not getting the oxen and wagons, and accused me
of making proulises which I di(1 not fulfill, and I then made tiie application to the Departmen~  I doii't rememt}er tlie date.  I purchased
those oxen and Wagoi)s, as I stated, iii ol)eir market.  Tlrey were prirchased and brought to the agelicy, I think, in the lttter l)art of Septeint~er or the first of October.  1 caii~t plice tlie dates.  The wagons were
brought at tlie same time.  There were twenty yoke of oxen au~l ten
wagoils.
Q Now, to whom were these oxen delivered?
A. They were delivered to me.
().To whom did you deliver them?
A. I deliv~red t hein to the Iiidiaiis 
420
~. I think I {1~1ivei'ed at tlitlbreiit tin~es ~ixteen pairs.  I~onr pairs
either diet I in tlie stoi'i~is of that wiliter, ~vere killed by the f(IIl~I)O in of
a baiik, or`~ (~UC killed l~y tlie tiidiaiis.  T~vo ()f them ~vere lyii~g npon a
hi~h bank, and another oI~e welit on top and fell down`Ind killed two of
them.
Q. To which of the In~~iaiis di(~ yoii deliver the sixteen pairs of oxen ~
A. To lfiereiit Indiaiis.  I doii~t remember their names. I gave Big
Foot one })`II~. Yellow 1~air anil his party alt~~getlier got five l)airs. I
don't ren~ember tl~e n~imes of tlie men in his party.  I gave (Aniss one
pair and I gave 1~ed I)og ()IlC pair.
().%~~l~en did you deliver those oxen to those Itii~ians?
k I tielivered them at diflereiit times, from the tinie they were received
oil nutil winter while some of them that were kept over I delivere~l this
spri lig.
~?. \Vhat evidence did yon take of the delivery of those oxen ~
A. I took the receil)ts of the Iiidiaiis and the certifiettes or athdavit~
ot tll()~e who witnessed the delivery.
(? ~~~liat did you do with those receipts and afli'4'tvit~
~. I sent them to \Vasliingtoii.
By Mr. IlOWE:
(~.Those oxen, I understand, l~ave been purchased to CilibIC the
Jiidians to carry on the bnsiiiess of agricnltnre ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. V~~here is Big Foot's farm which be is carrying on now
Y It is on the Little ~Yhite Clay ~iver, about three miles from the
agency.
().liow much of an indosure has he?
A. Not a great deal; abont three or four or five aci~es inclosed.  It
was in closed last spring.  lie has built all the indosure.
~? Did he plow it with the oxen which yon let him have ~
A I don~t know I believe he did.
Q?. Did you ever see him work the cattle ~
A. No, sir.
(? 1)o you know what has beconie of tlie oxen
A. lie has the~n still.
(~.You know where they are?
A. I don~t, unless I went to look on the raii~e.  lie was using them
when I saw them last.
Q. ~Vhat was he iloing?
A. I don~t kiiow what he was doing.
Q. Did five of Yellow II~iir's band take fi~rrns?
A. Yes sir.
Q. ~~~here are those fariiis locate~l?
A. They were on the creek twelve miles from the age ii cy.
Q. liow large were the farms?
A. ~Yell, there were one huiidred and sixty acres.  That is to say,
there were no tiirms laid off for them separately; there never lias beeii.
They all nioved upon the creek for the purpose of making a start in
agriculture and fbrming, and they went to work and broke np about
tbirty acres and put it under cultivatian. They are all together. The
difficulties in getting these Indians to go to flirming is to get them separated. They all go toge~her.
Q. ~~hen were those thirty acres broken up @)
A. Part was broken up, bnt not altogether, last sunimer, aiid part
last sprilig. 
42i
Q. llow much was broken up last snulmer?
A. I don't remember, but think about half of it.
Q. ~Vas there auything raised on that groiii~d l(~5t ycar?
A. Only a small quantity of corn and 1)uml)kiiis.
Q. Aboi~t how much, Doctor?
A. I don't know exactly how innoli.  ~ portion of their crop f~iled
from the drought and was no good.  Part ot it grcw ul), but did not get
ril)e, and they used it green, Jiot waiting for it to mature.
Q. llowwasthatgronnd brokcii?
A. Part of it was broken by my team, and part was brokcii by sonie
iiicn who live among the Indians and liad tean~s.
~? Ilow was the balance that was done this year?
A. It was broken by ttie teams gi veii to the Ijidians.
(~.~Vho flirnished the plows with which tlii~ breakiiig was doii~?
A. T~ie ~overnment.
Q. ~~~hen were those plows furiiishe~t?
A. Last sprifig.
(?.flow many plows did Yellow flair's pai'ty h'~vC
A. I only g:ive them the nse of tlie I)lows, as they were breaking it
up. I pur'~hased six plows, and retained them iii my custody.
Q. ~Vho drove the oxen and held the plows at this breaking last
spring$
A. I was away at N\~ashington with a delegation of Indians, and dou't
know.  There were fonr men eml)lQved by me to endeavor to get the
Indians to work, and to~teach them to drive oxen and hold a plow, bnt
who drove I did not see; I left that with the farmer.  The grasshoppers
almost destroyed all their crops this year.
Q. Are those five pairs of oxen which were given to Yellow flair's
party still in existeiice ~
A. The five pairs given to Yellow flair's party last fi~ll were turned
over to Todd Randall to keep dnring the winter.  This spring
Yellow flair's party divided.  Frank Sal way got for Yellow flair a part
of the oxen and the others were gotten by Yellow flair's party, as I Understand, if they are still in existence.  They may have died during the
winter.  Todd P~andall is a relation of Yellow flair's-that is, his wife is.
I~raiik Salway lives at the ~gelicy.  fle was ont cntting hay for the
agency while tlie Commission was there.
Q. How many of those sixteen I)airs of oxen which were delivered to
tl~e Indians last fall do you know t() be in existeiice 110'v
Y I only kiiow just now, by having (lilestiolied tlie Iiidiaiis abont
tlieni the other day, of seveii pairs.  Aiid when I left the ageilcy I
oi'i~ered tlie clerk to go aiid hant ni) all those oxen a-~d see where thev
are.
Q. Has these thirty acres which yon say were l)lowe(l l~y Yellow flair's
baii~{ been iticlosed?
A. Yes,. sir.
(~.Ly whit kiiid of a fence
~. N~'eli, by a bo'vlder fence Jiot a very Stlhst;iIiti'il feiice, biit such as
\~(` have there  it was inclosed by the indilli, the~iisclves (`hid a iii;iit
`vll()`i~5isred th~m.
~~. ~VlIo was that man?
A. It was a n~an named 11`~lg'~iii~iii.
().`\\`ho en1~)loyed hiin
A. I elnplo~'ed hiin.
(Q.Out of what fund did ycu IlIN hini
A. Otit (?f tlie beiiefi~ial fui~d. 
422
Q. To`~ hoin (lid you deliver the ten wagons
A. I delivered them to different Iiidiaiis, iii tlie same way I did the
oxen.
Q. Can ~ou rian~e any of the Indians?
A. ~Iost of them to whom I gave the cattle: Yellow IIiii','oue  Red
Dog, one: Big Foot, ~ras~, and Day got oiie togctlier.  I don~t remember the other nan~es 110W.
By Mr. EARRis:
Q. What use did thev make of them
A. Well, they used them iii coinilig down to the agency aii(~ for hauling wood, and ibr coming to the agency for their ratiolls, and in moving
about crenerally. I find the use of oxen by the Indians to be a fail nrc.
Arid they have got harness to use wagons with their poilieS, and I have
recommended that no more oxen be giv~n them, but that wagoIls and
liai~ness be given instead.
By Mr. llOWL:
Q. Doctor, since you were compelled by the treaty to give oxen and
wagons to those Indians to aid them in ftrmin~~ why did you not give
cows
A. Well, I thought we would try the experiment of using the oxen
and wagons first, and if they used those we would give the cows afterward. And another reason was the difficulty of keeping cows during
the winter.
Q. Now, I understand that, having f~iled to get oxen for the Indians,
or in getting theni in lS74, you did the breaking for these firms with
the agency team?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What does the agency team consist of?
A. ~Iules.
(~.lIow many?
A. There are twelve mules.
Q. liow long have you owned that t~ani  that is, tlie agelicy team ~
Y Most of them were traiisferred to inc by Dr. Daniels; (`ill but four.
Those four I purchased myself last summer.
(~.Eight you received from Dr. Daniels aiid four you purchased yourself?
& Yes, sir.
(~.Ilave you the same eight mules you received from Dr. Daniels?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.~Y hit use do von put those mules to?
A. I put them to harness at the ageiicy ill liauliiig, genci';illy ~`il}out
the mill, and in the spring plowing ground about the ageilcy fl~r ~`~
garden.
~~. Out of what ft~nd did you pay for U~ose four iiiules?
N 1 paid for them out of the tund I know as the incident~'fl fund.
By ~[r. ATll~RTON:
Q. What connection, Doctor, had Tod(1 f~audall with Big Foot relative
to his p'iir of oxen, or iii what transaction are those two coniiected
~. I (l()ii~t kiio'v of aiiy he had with Big Foot.
~?- Dii i~ot Big Foot last winter turn over his oxen to Todd Rai~dall?
A. If he did, I diii not know it.
~?- Did not Big Foot state to you a week or two ago that lie had
tuined over his oxen to Tod(1 Randall to keci) for the winter, l)iit had
not receiveil them back again 
423
A. No, sir; it was not Big Foot, it was Yellow Hair that said that to
inc.
By ~1r. HARRIS:
Q. Has Todd Randall ever returned the cattle lie received from
Yellow Hair's band
A. Todd Raiidali says that he tnrne~ them over, with his own oxen,
all to Rooks and Bowman, to keep through the wiliter. In the sl)ring
I directed the farmer to see that those oxen were delivered over to
the Iii ~iia 115 to work. Two pairs of them I know were delivered to
Fraiik Salway according to n)y orders, and the other three pairs I supl)oscd ha~l been received by those men, as they had never said anything
iii ore to me until Yellow Hair spoke to me about the in.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Has not Yellow Hair recently complaiiicd to you about these
cattle h'tving never been rcturn~d to hiin
A. Yc~, sir.
By Mr. HOWE:
Q. ~~hy did you order two pairs of the oxen which belonged to Yellow
flair's baud to be delivered to Frank Salway?
A. Yellow Hair with some others had gone with Frank Sal way to
conimence farrniiig, and the two pairs of oxen which belonged to them I
ordered to be delivered over to Sal way.
Q. I)id you eml)loy Sal way?
A. Yes, sir. I did during the spring. He is not ernpl~yed now.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. J)id you report to the Commissioner of In~~ian Affairs all the prop
erty aiid effects belonging to the Gover~ment or to the agency at that
I)oint
A. Yes, sir; I (lid.
Q. Is tlie Commissioiier of Indian Affairs aware that you have twelve
mules at that place?
k Yes, sir.
().lIow many carriages have you of all sorts at the ageiicy?
A. Four.
Q. 1)escribe their different character.
A. There are two wagons, one ambulance, and one s~~ring hunting.
w'.i~ori.
Q. Are there any horses at the agenQv belonging to tlie ~overnJielit ~
A. Ye.~, sir.
(~.Ifow many?
A. Ten.
~? ~Vhat are they empl~vcd at?
A. They are employed ii) h~rding cattle and in ridiiicr about tlie
r('s~rvation and the agenQ~ oil l)usinc~s conijected with the`i~~~cy.
By Mr. HOWL:
Q. Out of what fund are these horses and wagon.~ paid for?
A. They were paid for out of a mud seiit iiie tur that l)url)osc. I l)nt
tllelIl Oil my books as incideittal f~i1i(l5. I liever l)ui'thise;inythiiig
nut I get pcrm~ssioi1 from the l)el)artu1eiit. I li;i~~e to state tlie price
(?t' c'~ci'ytliiiig, an~l it is tlicii l)asscd ul)()II b~ the Coninii~sioiicr, and
ftiti{l tiLlisinitted to mc for the I)url)osc. 
424
By ~Ir. FAULKNER
~? ~~)t)H~t ~von think the nflfl1~)~F o~ horses`LIl&l i~in!~s ~O[11(1 l)C gru~itIy
utoijoinized
A. Ye~, sir.  It i~ niy j)nrj~o~C to sell four of tl)OSC Ii0U}(~5  ~n~I tli~re
S OI~C borse tli~t niig'Iit be tlisp~~I)5.3d ~~itli.  lie h~s be&u eripj~ltd in
ber~Iiii~.  florses are 11s(d ~ip ver~ iapidly ill tb(it business.
(?.Is tbere sufucielit work at an agei)cy like yours to employ ten
ljt~rs~s aiid twelve n~nles?
A. N() sir: but there is work enou~b to employ eight mules and eight
or iiine h~~rses.  I have to have horses for many ptir~~oses.  TI~e fariiier
lias to hive a horse all the tiii~e, and I have to scud my mcli all arouiid
the agency for inil&~s.
(?IIEYENNE, ~~~. T., T~~e.w~1~y, iug~~~t ~4, lS~~.
Preseiit  u-~)!0. TITOMAs C. FLETCHER chairinail  Prof. fiEOP(4E \N~.
A1'liEFT(?~N lion. CHARLES J. FAULKNER, lion. B. ~`. liARRIS and
Hen. TtMoTHY 0. liowi~.
The examination of Di'. 1. J. SAVfLLE was resun~ed.
Dr. ~AVILLE. I want to offer a ~ittie excuse for i~yseif yesterday.  I
am suH~ct to nervous spells and sick headache, and I was suffering from
it yesterday.  I would like to correct one or two thiiigs which I said
yesterday, which I fiiid, upon thinking about, I can clear up a little.  I
want to call your attention to the statement of ~tr. ~Valters in regard
to iiiy books being m;~ de up fton~ memoranda in my pockets. I wish
to correct niy aiiswers in reo'ard to this, and also about the contract with
Mr. McCann for the wagons, horses, and oxeil, &c.  There was no con
tract made with;\Ir. ~IcCann.  I did not advertise for bids, for the reason I had made iliquiries upon the price of oxen in Missouri and Iowa,
and I came here aii~l saw tlie oxen, or a part of them, that were to be
furnished, aiid had a description ot the cows,and understood that the
c~~iitract for theiii was coniI)leted, or would be coi~pleted in a short time,
~iid I ~eiit to tiie agelicy and theii wrote the letter to the Commissioner
of Iii~liaii Aft~iirs, iii which I 51)oke of having purchased those tliiiigs
just as a inerehaiit ~ould si)eak of havilig purchased goods after liavilig
ordered lieni aii~l lia~I not received tlieiii.  Iii regard to charges of Mr.
~~~alters. I will say that they were iiivestigated by tlie coiiiniissioii ot
which Bish()I) flare was cliairiiiaii, aiid tlie evidence is 110\v oji tile iii
the Iiidian Othee, a~id can be seeii tlieie.
By Mr. liAR 115
Q. I want to ask you what _ ootls if aily, are weighed at tlie ageiiev
on heir ariiva} iii tlie trijils
A.`\N~e always wei~li l~a~'oii aii~l corii and flour aii~l coft'ee.  (~oods
tilit are piit 111) iii ~i<i~~kiges ai~~l ii151)Ce'tCtt by the iuspe(~tor, aii~l the
~~eights iii;iike~t on the ~)ai~kige, we usually take as they aie i!i('iikC(l,
ujiless they show e~ i(lCiiCC ot li~iv iiig beeti brokeii such as aililuity ()()ds.
`\Ve take the weight of 511 Oar aiid tobacco.
(~.In ~S7j did you pursue tlie same or a din.ereiit systeili?
~. In 1~ J N\C (~id tlie same, except we were not ~0 (`~I (~t11l lii r( ~~ii (I
to dour.  It caitie in oue-liuii~~red-pouii~1 sacks, aii~1 we (li(i hot weigh
it, and they drew it at tlie w;ig()ii. uiiless there was s()Iu( ~iI)l)C;tr~1iCC ot
it having been broke ii 01) en.  No`V we weigh it all.
{).Had you any idea thit flour w;is couiing iii short wei~lit desi~''ied
to pass for full weight? 
425
A. ~~s, sir.  I ascertaiiied th('~t flour was comil)g to the agency iii
short weight.  I know 110 reason for it.
Q. Did that first happen, as far (`t5 you kl)ow. flI~(1(?r tlie ~Iartin contract?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever know of-aiiy flour co!nillg ill ~lioi't weight t() the
agency except that of the ~1artiii contra{'t
A. No, sir; I think not.
().jIas ever any flour of short wei~i~t beeii rccei~~~d`it your ag~li cy
an(t counted as one-hnndred.i~onnd s~cks?
A. No, sir; I think not.
(~.~Vho flist made known to you, or wheic did you first get tlie iiiformatioii, that flour was c~iniilg, under ti~e ~[artiu coiltract, iii eightyeight.ponnd sacks?
A. ~Ir. Palmer, the store keei)er here at Ci~eyeiine, first called lily attention to the fact.  I don't kiiow whether lie first detected it by weigh.
ilig it or not.
Q. Then, so far as you know, was not that flour designed to ~)ass for
one-hundred.pound sacks?
A. Yes, sir; so flir as I know.
Q. Did tlie contractor, or aiiy of t}ie einpl~~y('s ~ive you to understand that lie was shipping flour of short weights?
A. No,sir.
Q. ~Vhen you first learned of this shoit weight what did you do
A. I gave orders to the 5tore'keel~er to receive no flour in less than
one-hundred-ponad sacks without orders froiii the (?oiniiiissioner of Indian
Affairs to do so, and directed the store-keeper to cornmuiiicate to the
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, which he did, aiid the Corniiiissioner
wrote him a letter which stated that it ma~le ilo difl'ereiicc, provided the
weight of the flour was certified to by the inspector.
Q. ~Vas that at the time that ~Ir. Long was first appoiuted inspector?
A. Yes, sir; i'Jajor Loiig was the inspector then.
Q. Prior to the appointment as inspector of ~I~jor Loiig, di(l not a
lirge portion of that flour pass without being noticed by anybody?
A. No, sir.
(~.Do you know whether ally l)ortiou of tli('lt flour was rec~~ived at
your agelicy as one-hundre~l-1~ouiid saeks l~eibre tlie fi';iud was ~letecte~l?
A. I do lot  I have no reasoli t~) 5ilI)l)()5~ so.  1'he last car-loads, the
first that was received there, was seat ill) billed at so ni~'III~ sacks of
olie hun~lred pounds, and there`vele two 01' tiii'ee sacks l)tlt iii over
the cotint, so that the weight was coirect, btit tlie couiit was over.  I
received none as one-huiidred.1iouud sicks, niiless it was rcceive~1 by
the clerk without Iny knowledge.
t? Now, you say that all crO0d~ excej)t those like sugar, aiid packages of drv (rOOd5 and tobacco, hive been`veigiied b\- yoii ()n their ari'ival at the age ilcy before your receil)t`viS giveil to the ~0Iitr'ictor for
tr~insportation ~
A. Yes, sir.
(~.~\~h~'it niethod of kee~~iiig tlie beel'-accoiiiit, l)etweeii yourself (`~ii(1
~Ir. Losler existed iii the ~ ear 1S7;4? I wi~ulil like to have yi}it st ite
~i<'irticularly all the books that were kept aiiit the whole ~)ri)eess.
`L There was oiily oiie book kel~t l\V Ille iii which I eiitere~l tlie b~cf
re~-i~ived as receipted for iii the o!lice; it`v~is the book of gr~)ss weights
(111(1 iiiiiiihei-s.
~?- ~\~as there a jieriod ii O&'t~~b&'r or Novciii}ei' i~;;`vi
no such aC-Lount.,  eli:yo~i 1 id 
426
A.No, sir.
(). It is st;lte~t by ~Ir. N~~alker that iieither yoII`ior your ~lerk could
~ive the amount of c~ttle or goods received witliont calling llj)OIi George
~I. Bosler.
A.I remember tlie charges.  I iiever called 11l)Oll ~Ir. ~))~~sler for such
thin cr5  I iiever saw ~Ir. \\~alker.  Fraiik:~l)l)letou was lily clerk at
that time  he was killed afterward by tlie Iu~liaiis.
Q.~Vhat was your maimer of keepiiig acconjlt of tlie buef issued
about the tilue he was there ~
A.I made up a list, aiid issued on this a certaili nun~ber of cattle,
and there were a certain number issued oil orders to Iiidiaiis that were
camped a distance froiu the agency, and tlie entry in tlie book was
made up fi~oiu this metaoraiiduin. The list and the orders before each
issue was made up in the whole, without keepiiig iii detail the ii umber
of head that were issued, during the eight or tell lays, at different times.
I will fliruish you with a full transcript of beef issued by me iii 187:3,
and also a transcript of beef issued siiice I took charge of tlie agency.
Q.Have you the record which Appleton himself made?
A.Yes, sir; lie may have written upon it.
Q.Has that book hcen changed or altered in any resi)ect since ~Yalk~r.'s report?
A.No, sir.
Q.Have there been any different entries in thIt book?
A.No entries have been made siiice the time Appleton was there
which apply to the time he was there.
Q.Is any permanent record kept of the supplies issued to each band
of Indians or each head nian?
A.No, sir.
Q.How do you determine the amount of suplilies which you issue on
any given day?
A.If I have a full supply of rations on band, I make up a full ration
of each kind for each Iiidian.  If I am short of any article, I divide it
pro rata among all tlie Indians; then, on issue-day, as the tickets are
brought in, the goods are issued according to that plan and a record
made up at tlie end of the day's issue.  I figure up the iiumber of ratioiis of each article issued and keep a record of that.  That is the o'nly
means I have for determiniiig the balance of goods oil baud or of tlie
amount issued.
By Mr. ATliE~TON:
~t~ Oii a previous examinatioii you have testified thit yoil have never
ma~le any over-issues to cover ba~k leilciercies?
A.Not of rations; I have of beef.
Q.It follows. tlieii, that all deficiei~cies of that kiiid`ire }~eriiiailent
losses to the Indians?
A.Yes,sir.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
(). Doctor, I want to inquire of you if you ~re able to state what
was the number of children within three iliiles of tlie a'gcii(~y between
the ages of eight aiid eighteen?
A.I could not tell without seein~ the lists.
~? Have you ever ma'le`lily etlort while you wcr(' tlicre to ~stal~lish
scll(~ols for the edn~ation of the Iii~liaii chii~lrcii
A.Yes, sir.
~? ~~~hat eilbrts, and with what uccess?
A.I have all the lumber sawe~l for a school-house.  It is iiot lily duty 
427
to establish schools; the missionary board est'~blishes the schools and
employs the teachers, and the Department furnishes tlie school-house
and a teacher.  I only carry out the orders of tl~e Department with
regird to these matters.  I have received orders to build a scl~ool-house,
and have the lumber sawed out ready to erect tlie school-house, and
bave received a copy of a contract between tlie Con~missiouer of Indian
Affa'ijs ~iid Bishop Hare, by which he is to furiiish a teacher for the
school.  Bishop Hare is to perform a certain part jil tlie establishment
of a school, and the Commissioner is to fi~riiish that wl~ich tlie Govern
inei~t agrees, which is to build the school-house, pay the te<'~clier, aiid
give a ratioii of food a day for each child attendii~g the school which
is to be delivered over in bulk to Bishop Hare or his age ii t.
(?.~~hen do you calculate to be able to have that school-house
erected and the school establishe~l?
A. I can have it up in four or five weeks; just as sooii as I get time.
Q. ~Vho do you look to tbr the selectio~i of a teacher?
A. To Bishop Hare aiid tl~e board of which he is a member.
Q. Does the Government make aiiy al)propriation yearly ft~r the
teacher?
A. I don't know.
Q. ~Vhat are tl~e terms of tlie contract between the Con~missioiicr of
Indian Affairs and Bishop llare?
A. N\-~ell, I looked over it rather casually.  I ca'i rein ember only the
facts which I have told you-that tlie rations are to be delivered for
the number of children attending the scitool. Tlie teacher is to be snpplied with certain books, I think, by the Government.  There is a copy
- of the contract on file in my office, and you can see it.
By ~r. HARRIS:
Q. I would like to kiiow whether, in the~delivery of beef or other sn l~plies, you have made any distinction between chiefs and head inen in
the amount of their portion?
A. Yes, sir. The chiefs, after their custom, are usually expected to
entertain a large number of their followers, and have been accustomed
to have a large supply on ha~id to be able to entertain their friends in
their wild state con)iIig to the agency.  This custom  is so fixed 111)011
them that we have to yield to it to a ceitain extent, and furiiish the
chief or head man of a baud an extra aii)onnt of r'iti()115.
Q. N\~ho determines the difibrence bet~~-eeii one h~id nian and another,
or between the chief and his men ~
A. I do.
Q. And you determijie to whom you will give the most?
A. Yes, sir. I make it even with the head ineii theniselves; that is,
give them one extra ration for their families.  I treat all tlie head meit
alike.  I don't give the soldiers anything extn'i.  To I~~ed Cloud, Blue
~~orse, High \~~olf, and other head mcii I give more ritions than tlie
rest.
Q. Do you mean to say that you give those head iiieii in tlie same
proportion?  Do you give oiie head man just as iiiiich as another?
A. Yes, sir.  I have never made ally distiiictioii in giviiig one more
thaii other.  I have never heard any complaiiit that I have doiie so.  I
have been breaking do'vn the systeni of  iving extra ratioiis as much
(iS I cii~, and now I have almo~t broken it 11).
(?.(?iii you show l~y your recorils to wlitt cliiefl  110(1 balids c;ittle
have l)(eli i~~ne~l, aiiil tioc nniiit~eis to eleli ~iiice`v&~~i hive b~~eii it 1~cd
Ll~~u~l 
428
A. I cannot.
Q. Ilave you that record for any portion of the time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. For what portion?
A. For the last six months*  I keep now a record of my issues of b~ef
to all the bands.
Q. Were there any cattle receipted for in October, 1S7~, which yon
did not see yourself?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the date?
A. I don't remember the date.  I think that I saw a portion of all
cattle that were receipted for on any receipts at that time, although I
did not see all *of them.
Q. At any time has there been an allowance made to the contractor
for shrinkage in his cattle by reason of over-driving?
A. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Q. Now, have yon been told or have you information that Mr. Apple.
ton ever made such an allowance?
A. No, sir.  I have 100 information that Mr. Appleton ever made such
~n allowance.  I have heard it said that he did. It was said by a party
that knew nothing about it; b'it no such allowance was ever made.
Q. It has been asserted by some persons that Mr. Appleton, in November, 1873, made an allowance to Bosler of thirty-five pounds each for cattie received for over-driving. Was that ever doue with your kuowledge
or conseut?
A. No, sir.
(?.Did Mr. Appleton ever tell you that he had done so?
A. lle did not advise me that he ever did so.  That was Mr. A* B.
Appleton, 110W residing at Sioux City.  I requested him to come here
before you started from the agency, but he had not time to get here before
you would leave, and I told him not to come.  There is no record on
that subject on my books.  I pay my empl~ves by checks.  I keep my
deposits iu Omaha, in the First National Bank; it is selected by the Department as my depository.  I keep 110 deposits in Cheyenne.  Omaha
is five hundred miles from Cheyenne and six hundred from Red Cloud.
My employcs have sold their checks to the traders. I have never
known of the checks being shaved at Red Cloud at five or tei~ per cent.
disct~unt.  I don't know that it ever has been done; most of the men
are iudebted to the traders to a certain extent at the end of the quarter,
and they, the traders, take their checks.
*Q. Are the books and accounts of ytnr predecessors in your possessioii?
A. None of them have been left with me.
Q. liave you a set of books, which you consider to be entirely correct,
all to be left there?
A. Yes, sir; the law requires me to keep but one book, upon which
shall be entered all articles purchased for the agency.  All the books
that I have there are books that I have gotten up myself from Iny own
ideas of what was necessary; and I will say that it is oue thing that is
mportant, I think, for the ag~ucies, that the Dapartmeut should prescribe the system of books for the age n cies, to be left there, and the
forms upon which they shall be kept.  If I had had such regulations and
the forms of keepiug those books when I first went there, there would not
have been the distraction in the records which now exists  but, not knowing the business and the necessities of the service, I had to get up books
just as the necessities arose.  I could now get up such books as would 
429
keep a perfect record for the.~gency, and I stippose there are some men
who have experience at the Department who COUi(I do the s'~me thiiig.
By Mr. FAizLKNER:
Q. Caii yon assign aiiy reason or ai~y explanation of tlie flict that yonr
agency has beeii singled ont iii the most 5~5tC!1i'itiC nianJiel' as a point
of attack ever sii)ce yon have beci in that agency?
A. A large portion of it is ~~COiilPrChCn&~jl)le to nic.  There are some
facts, however, in regard to mattcrs which have occurred iii conliection
with tlie a~eii~y which I will state. Fir~t among these is this: ~Vheii I
first went to the agelicy, Mr. ~Viliiain ~Velsh took a Very active part in
what he termed detectiiig frauds (`it tiie agelicies, aiid wrote ine a letter,
in which he stated that he wished inc to act the pai't of a detective
111)011 the ofticers of the Goveriiiiicnt which were over ijic. I mide no
T~~'~ to such letters.  Soon after I got to the ageilcy, a large number
of those wild Indians came dowii, increasing the lininber of Indians
to be fed at the agency about double those which had been estimateil
for and I was compelled to give them ratioiis.  I "`rote to the Depart
ineilt, askiiig instructions.  I was told to give them ratioiis. As soon as
Iny receil)ts were in there, this`iiaii ~Y'ilker was sent out there to tlie
age`icy, to, it seems, ~~ake a rel)ort 111)011 tite agency, aiid his report
loot~ed as if he had gone out there to mike up a case without regarit [br
truth. Another thii~g:  N\~hen I first went to the age!icy, Mr. Jules
Ecoffee was the trader at tlie agency.  lie liad gotteii iiito a difticulty
between two parties of Indiatis, orie of which was for tiim and the other
against him.  Aiid at that time a keg of whisky was taken from his
store and destroyed by the Indians, and tlie Indians inet him as lie was
goiiig to Fort I~aramie, and ordered him out of tlie country, and deinanded of me that another trader should be ippOinted.  This I reported
to the DCp'trtmeiit, aiid Mr. JScoffe&s license was revoked, and Mr.
Todd Ranilall was appoiiited trader.  Geiieral John E. Srnith is a particular friend of ~Ir. Ecoffee's, and seems to have taken up his cause, at
least in feeling, if in no other way; and during the time of the excitei~ent, along in the winter, after Mr. ~Nalker's report, niade another report, stating that I was issuing beef in such quintitics that it was left
to rot on the prairie, the Indians taking only tlie hides, and tra(liiig
them for gnus and ammunition.  I received this stateiiiciit from the (;`oiiimissioner of Indian Affairs b~ telegraph,,a,skin~ ine if it were so. I tele
g~aphed the Commissioner of Indian Affairs that tiie stateiiiciit of (;en
eral Smith was false ii) every particul;ir. This was a very o[)I)osite issue
between (;eneral Smith aiid myself aiiil was tiie origiii of the large
portion, I suppose, of the frelug of t~ie ~raiy officers, which has causeil
them to enter so zealously in this matter against I~~cd (?l0iid agelicy.  I
think that, conpled with the desire of a certaiii liortioli of tlie Army officers
to have the Indian busi~ess tfl~ns&rred to the \Yar I)el);irtr,iieiit, has beeii
the origin of this fight here oil ale.  I tliiiik,too,    that the iniportauce ot
the agency, it being a very large one, has had somethiiig to do with
it, to~e,ther with the flict that inaiiv of those iiidividuals have held office,
an~i wish to break down the pea%c-policy, and look npon 1~ed Cloud
`i~Cncy as the mo~t vulnerable l)i)iIit to attack the Indian ~iusiness. Th;it
is about, in gel~er 11 terms, lily idea of tl~e whole causes of' niakiug l~ed
Cloud tlie ceilter ~ f attack. Although it lias ilot beeii entirely contiiied to
1~cd Cloud a~'-enc~,that h~is been tlie cciitr',il figu~'e iii the contest. And
if you will a?iow lie to add, i'or niyself, it lias bceii tlie cause ()f c'iibarrass!iieiit to nie ii lias 1)eeii the cau~~c of (liss'itisfaction inil disan'ectioii
among ttie fnili'iii,~ it ha~~ been tlie loss ~f money to the Govcriinicnt; it 
430
has n~ade it more diffl~~nlt for me to carry on the business of the agency,
aiid obstrncted work t'iat could have been accotnplished there had thes~
attacks not been madt. I can say now that I wonid have liad at Red
Clond agency thirty ol forty f'iinilies in houses; I would have h~d the
a~enQv completed. and a scijool-house there, aiid possibly a s~hool, with
the same amonut of in~ncy that has beeii expended there, if it had not
beeu for these tronhies.
By Mr. FAVLKN~R:
Q. I)oii~t yon think, nn~ler all those circumstances, that tlie best interests of the service would be promoted by changing yon for some
other agency, and patting some other person in it?
A. ~~es, sir; I made up my mind on that snbject when I was in WashiI]gtoii last summer, and have acted accordiiigly. I feel, as I stated ill
iny letter to the Commissioner, that these' attacks upon me have weakened ii0y iiiflnence with the Iiidians.  N\~hile I do not believe that the
Iji~lians will ever be satisfied with any agent that would andertake to
carry out tlie law and his duty fnlly, still, there has been a considerable
feeling worked up against n0e among some of them.  ~Yhile nost of
them are my fi'ien~ls, and insist upon my remaining there others feel
very bitter toward me.
By llAR~is:
Q. There is in the warehouse a large qnantity of corn whicb has not
bceii iii~pccted; will you state the amoant?
A. I don't know the an~onnt. There is o~)e train~load.  I think there
are a1~out 2o~O sacks, at 1~~O poands to tlie sack, which make 37,5()()
po~inds.  I am not sare, and I will correct this statement if I find it to
-be wrong.
(~.On wl~ose contract wa~ that corn forwarded?
A. John E. Baldwin's. It has not been weighed at the agency; it
po~sibly has been weighed, bat not officially.
Q. Do you know whether you have given receipts to Mr. McCann for
the transportation of that corn ~
A. Mr. ~IcCaiin did not transport it.  Mr. Baldwin's contract provi(1C5 that he shall deliver the corn at the agency. I permitted it to be
placed in the warehonse withont receiving it or receiptilig for it, and
notified the Department, and have received instructions concerning its
ii~spection. The instructions were to request the commanding officer at
Fort P~obinson to appoiiit a board of sarvey to iiispect and receive it.
I have made that request to the commandiiig officer, and lie has informed
me that lie could not appoint such a board without higher authority;
and I had to return his iii5~~~ to the Department, in order to get orders
from tlie Secretary of N\~ar. There is more corn due on the Baldwin
coiitract. I don't recollect liow much.
Q. I~o you judge it to be ju~licious to supply corn to tlie Indians?
A. P'trtly, yes, sir; I think it would be better, as I h~ve reported already to the Commissioner, to have a corn-mill and grind it there at the
agency.
By ~Ir. ATllFRTON:
Q. ~Vhat was the longest I}eriod during last year in which there was
no issue of beef?
A. I cannot tell tlie exact time but think it was eighteen days.
Q. Are you confident that there was no longer period than that in
which there was no beef issued?
A. I could not say positively, but I think that was the longest period. 
431
Q. Can you state any inore accurately ill regard to any other supplies
than beef?
~. No, sir.
Q. In reporting tlie affair of the flag.staff to the Department, what illstructions did you receive?
A. I received instrnctioiis from the Commissioner to c~iise those Indians to bring in a new staff and erect it there, if I bad sufticiejit force
there to do so.
Q. N\~hat action did you take or what answer did you make`.
A. I returned an answer, and seiit copies of the correspondence between ~[ajor ~~Iear and myself iii regard to the force he had at Camp
Bobinson, showing that it would be impracticable to carry out the Coillmissioner's instructions. I will say, that if I liad had tlic workmen theii to
put up the flag-staff I could have done so.  The youiig mcii aiid soldiers
caiiie to me and said if I wanted to have a flag staff put up they would
protect me  but I had no workmen there to do it.
By Mr. llOWE:
(?- Doctor, have you had any teachers at the agei)cy heretofore?
A. No, ~ir.
Q. llas there been no ~ppropriation heretofore for that purpose?'
A. My recollection is that the appropriution is a permanent one for
schools.  The funds nuder which I get money are as follows: Pay of
agents, pay of interpreters, pay of empl~ye's, incideiital expenses, aiid
beneticial purposes.  I enter them on my book under those he'~(ls, and
pay out of those funds for just such thiiigs as I make requisition for;
but how they are managed at Washington I don't know, nor do I know
how they are appropriated.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Can you recollect what the amouut of this beiieflcial fuiid is at your
ag~i icy?
A. It is irregular.  The Commissioner of Indian Affairs fixes the
aniount.
Q. Is not the school.fund included in the beneficial fund?
A. I don't know.
Q. llave you any discretion, yourself, in the expenditure of the beneficial fond?
A. No, sir; it is all prescribed by the Department at N\~ashington.
By Mr. llOWE:
Q. Doctor, have you ai)y duties devolviiig upon yoii as agei0t other
than to receive the various supplies l)urchased for distribution at that
ageiiQV, and to make that distribution?
A. Yes, sir, I have other duties.
Q. What are thev ~
A. Ui~der the instructions from the Coinmissiouci' of Iiidiaii Afflirs
to (10 and perform aiiy acts or work to l)roIiiote civilization among the
Indians
Q. Is there any practical difficulty in the way of your keepiiig an acco~iut by a system of your own of the sup~~lies receivetl, so that you can
bc able to tell at aiiy time, or at all times, that you have received just
th~ amount of suI)l)lies belonging to tite ageilcy, aiid slio~v with such
Lecuricy as a mercliaiit can show that he has received exietly the invoice that lie I)urcliases year l~y year?
& No, sir; there is no l)ractical difliculty iii tlie way of ~loiiig that cxcel)t tl~e clerical labor. or ~(tiit of suilicieiit coilipeteut clei~ic~il force to 
432
keep sI1(~b`~ syStCII0 (~f bnok~ that WOlll(I slio~~ all tl)O~C itCIl)S a~`~ iner~l~:~nt~ l~ool~~ Sl1()~V them. Theic i~ i)erh~i~s`~ pr'~()tiC1l (Iith(~I~lty there.
(~.~~() ~Ofl Iflill to ~<`i~ thtt ~oi~ h'td jiot siiiticieiit (ICri(~Ji force?
~. No..ir t 11(1(1 iiot.
~? II~ve yon (~~kC(l f()r ~d(ljtjou~Il clerical fl~~t~e f~~r that t)tirpose
N. No sir. I have iiot.
~~& Ifave von iiot al~-ays l)een a~~le to levise a plan l)y ~`liich YOU could
~bow the (listi'ih{ltioii ~f the V'~~~0U~ 5n1)plies yon received ~vith ~llcfi
accuracy aiid (~Cr~~i~It~ itS;t lflCrChtut call show tlie sales of itis goods
~. I bclieve tit it f (10 that now.
(~.IFlave you ~tl'v~tys ilotie it
A. No, sir ~)()t itt first hot with tlie saute accuracy that we (10 now.
Q. N\~heu was tlie systeiii iii which ~()U are itow kee1tiitg your hooks
first adopted
A. I couiu~enced tlie first of Ji1ly, I~74.
(;). Sitice the itist ~f July 1874, your books will show accurately tite
distril~~utit~n of all the goods of every description which you have r~
ccive~l at lit at a~ency for that I)nrpose ~
A. No. Sit, not of all.  TIte bt)oks aloiie will not show the distribu
ti()!i Ot l)e(~f since that tin~e to tlie Intlians or he~d n~en.
Q. \Vill your hooks show the distributions of other supplies?
N Not of ai~nuity goods or of rations; they will at the warehouse; tlte
aunnities were distributed atid the amounts entered np as a whole, and
not as a ~listribntion as with the beef.
Q. NYho is there connected with your agency who, if placed on the
5titI~d, could verify tite accuracy of your books
A. The clerk, its far as the books are eoiiceriied, and the store keeper
of the hooks he kee1ts.
Q. These two functionaries keep different sets of books!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do these different books and different entries relate to the same
tr~tnsaction or to different transactions?
N The same tr~tnsactions in a somewhat different form.
Q. So that one is a check npon the other?
Y They are so iiitende~l.
Q. You state in addition to these duties of receiving and distributing
go~t~Is at~d suititlies, you are also ch~trget1 with the duty of executing
such or~lers as the Commissioner issues from time to time to promote
Ci~~ilizit i()n ailittlig the littlians?
A. Yes, sir.  These are contained in roy letter of instructions.
~? All the ilistructious you have received in that beltitif ~tre in writing, I si~ppose
N Yes. sir; ill writing or in priitted or~lers or circulars.  They are
n~'ttters of recoril both in my office aiid ill tlte Iiitliaii Buteaii.
Q. Do yon reu~ember any one or~ler or ally olte specitic thing which
you have been ordered to do by way of promoting civilizatioii, beyond
th;tt of distributing supplies?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. I understand you to say that ill point of fact tit crc itaS been no
teacher employed at the agency up to this tiiiie ~
A. No, sir.
Q. There has been no attempt to open a school?
A. No, sir.
(~.ITow laroc is this building to be which you are al~'y~it to construct
for a scitool-house 
43d'
A. I am going to make a one~story ho'~sc, 22 or 2) feet by ~0 feet,
with two rooji~s
Q. ~Yhat is that bnildii~g goilJg to cost ~
A. It will cost, altogether, al~ont twelve or fifteen bnndred dollai~
that and the stockade-fence aronnd it.  ~Ve have to bnil(i tlie fencc to
keep the children in and the others out.
Q. Are you building it UJ)Ofl contnict?
A. No, sir; so far ~-e have only sawed tlie luii~ber and purchased tlie
logs, but whether it shall be built by contract or by the day, I pro~~ose
to get iJ~structioiis from tlie Department.
Q. ~Vhat did the logs cost von?
% Three liu~idred and fifty dollars, I think.
(? ilow n)any thousand feet of lumber
A. Tweiity thousand feet, f think.
~? Y~u saw the lnmber?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.The 2(?~000 feet yoii think will put Ul) the bnildiiig aiid tlie fence?
A. Yes, sir; that is the estimate.
There is one thing in Professor ~Iarsli's charges which I woul~l like to
correct.  The Professor states that I tol(l hiiu in prescilce of Bishop
Hire that the cattle issne~l 0! the 14th of November avelaged 85)
pouiids.  Tlie conversatioii was goilig oil between BisIlo1) II;ire aiid
Professor ~farsh as to what average weights the contract re(inire(l, it
liaviiig been stated by Professor ~I'Lrsh that tlie contract required 1,000
pOUU(15, and which had beeii corrected by Some person in tlie papers.
Bishop flare asked me what weights the coil tract called for, and I told
hini 850 pounds; he theii said to me,` \Vill these cattle average that
lunch ~ aii~( I answered, "Ye~, aiid more. Iietlieii aske~l Pro&ssor ~farsh
if lie thought they would avelage th;tt much, aiid he said that he di(1 not
think they woulil`Iverage over 750 l)ounds.  The bishop asked hiiu if
lie co~ild make aii atb~l~ivit to that fact, and lie s:iid no, lie Coul(l not.
Now I wish to explaiii that I di(l lot state that the cattle`tveraged cx
aetly 85() pounds.  I siml)ly iiiten~led to state just tlie question that was
a~ked me, thit they ~vo~ild weigh that much.  At the tinie the questioii
was ~5ked 110C, I (li(l hot reineiiiber liow iiiiich tlie cattle average(l; I
only rCineni{~er tlie geilcial fact th;it tli~y avc~agc~1 sonictliiiig over oiie
thousind l)onnds, a~i~l if he lid aske{l lie liow ilinell tlie c;ittle would
ha~ e ~~Cri~ed, I could flut hive t()l(l him (`it tlie tillie, and it is a iiiistake
to say th'-it~I made such a st~teineiit.
bP~. SAVILLL~S D(~)C U~IENTAh \ EVIi)EN(jL'.
The following`ire tlie documents furnished liy Dr. S~ville, to whielt
reference is made in his writteii rel~ly t() I)rofessi~r ~\Iarsli~s cll'trges,;iid
iii liis Oril testinioiiy
ALLE(~ED ~)VEP-Isst~E OV R~\'I'I(jNS.
(b mp (~ ~t Qf ~ I' IJu WTh(')'.
I n~1cr 7,
rs is r('c~i ~~~(1  ~~i1! s'iv I 1i;~t I iia~'~ v~'rv lit I~' (11)1 l)t tl~~t thu (?(`I)~~       1 l~:ty~1lI t',,j a`u,~ l'~r''&' II iii~~I,~'r t)t P;t{i~,'11s it t'lit' I~~'(I ~`lI 11(1;i('('I1('~ iiiiiru
i IiI~li;tri~`i~iii tie iii~~ "i~  tI  Ii (;iiii tli:it`ict     t~i $(`!i(':1 ~li~'cliil`i,~i'iit
tI   I I              lilt t IL' Iii~lj;ii,~,;iiiii`.il~ti  t liu iiiiiii ieu  ot' i',i I iou5 tli:it iii:i\' I),' issiiu I it
25 1 1 
434
thre~ ()I' flit r Ii tI~~i'eitt r~ttioii (li~~s..~  t() tite i~~in     11 ~vi 1 lii it~I(til i~lii~il a' N~~lIitt I
aiti thou  to ~t~tte.  ~litt Jit(~l(~1t  iltiit't liiitkt ii1)~ ii~l (if lliiitr 11(1 ((((ri tIlitli tlitiii~It it
it  saul    " ~Itt iii t() it  ri~~tt`(lit!)   liii       lit  iiltii' I " iiili I Ii iii ti~It li~tg~ itt Iti~rs
tifteeii iti](I  iiiti~' a  tigit it  t~~'~iity' itli itt' it ltit~'ttt  Ilte' itlilii'it~tlIi'i (it' Iii'l!t( Ilitro fiir
toontli   liit~  all ttiriii'il lilitc'k  it~i~il  i~'iti'rtll~' to lie  it'  it (iii.  I iliiit'
t  eti itilytlilIt
to iuilii'itt& t lii ii~e iit itii~' tliiiir for t lii last t \~`el~'i tttiiittlt~.  ~ so) lii) sigh (if tie ~~` tags,
hut 1 thu  (`0 it staok a liiug di~tauoe iii tlte prairie.  1 asl~otl ~vliat it (VitS, aittl ~vas toltl
it (~itS tliiiir.  It`vas soitto ~li~taitoo iiti'. hut I took tite flute to go ititil 5t~e it, ait~i I fount'
itot less titan otie Ituitilreii autl fifty' or ittaylte t~'o ii ii ii tIred ha's t)f Ilour in a stack
~vithout tlto least coveriug, hag  it!  tit rued hlack, atid thi clerk itifitittietl tile that it
had licen there (iver  iX i(ii)ittlts.  No~v, as tlour is not itsi'tl ity tlto Ititliatis. it sceuts to
ittO that Dr. Daitiol~. if lte liat lii~eit ii ci)rrect iii ait. ~viiiilil li;tvo itittihoil your Departt~ent of  itch tact  ljitt I thitik thi~re is ii giiotl sho~v tbr di~lioiiesty.
Truly,
S. I?. IlOSMER.
E. P. S~iiTit. (~ntatissioo~r.
Ajeiit ~oi'iIIi`~ L'eplji to the Aboic.
IV!) CLiluli AiiVNi~Y 1) T
~ciiti'ot~t't' -27, lS'73.
I liitvo the itonor resiteetfitly to ackito~vletige the receipt of your coiitiiitiiiicatiiitt tif ilic I.)tlt instant, inclosing copy of letter frotit Hon. S. H. lIositter, charging that
there iS iii! overissue of ratititis itt the agency  that the Iiitliaiis ittako no niore use of
tlit' tIiiiir than if it ~vere sanil  that lie sa~v it large atnotint if tliiiir in Inillait lodges
~ liicli l~itiI tltc ni-iltearituce of having laid there for itiouths; that ho sa~v tito hundred
~it0li  iit iii iii  on the prairie, hags tuined hlack. atid the clerk inforuted lititi tililt it liad
I cOil tlici c fir six utoittlts; and recoiniucuditig that a special coinmissiottor he seut hero
tti citililt Iii' Iiiiliitiis, atid ii ii iii tier ot' rations issitel, & c.
Iii rojily' I ~vill resliectfitlly Stitto thitt, as reg~trds tlte first charge. I tltiiik Iierliitlis at
ti 1  tiltic t Iteic 15 (ii overisslie of ratititis, itrisilig froitt tite Iii(llitiis clitiiitiitg in ore
(`ititllllos tltaii they' have iu their hands.  I have becit iititkiitg every efl'iirt to ascertain
t hi- cot root itti to her, bitt o~ving to the Itorsistent refusal of the Iittli~tns to pirtitit aity
jiersilo tit ii it tither theiti, I have filleil  as regards the iite:tiis takeii ti) verify their
~~tateiiients, I tirst ittteittlitell t ho ciitir~o fiillo~ved by tity- ltrctleccss'tr, to ~ascertitii? by
itidirect iiteaii  tlto trite ii titit hei', hut ltave toiiiitl tltitt it otily OtOitteil hitter feelin~~s
aiiil rc~ciititieut.  I have tto~v ~tjipe,alet1 directly to their souse of i'igltt, itud have
obtainoil t lii it ooiisoitt to lt.t~ t ((tie ot thou o't a itiiiitl)et count rite ltt'i)lilo, ~vltich I look
it l~~~~~ it  it  toll to'~ itril get Ii ii  poritlissiltit ti) eount tlicn~ itty'self.  ~l r. l~osiiter's cltar'~e
ci itilil oiilyl~ca  iii'itii 5o oti ltt~-, 1ijt t, a~ lie hatl iio means of ascertaiitiii' the fact the
slitirt till!  Ito ~Vit(' ilt tlte Igeilcy.
U lie seci)lid charge is so itlle thitt it scarcely- deserves notice, atid can otily be
aus~vci cii ily it  cii oral ileti lal.
,fii the t)ii.il ~It~trge I ~~ill ~~<iy, if the gotitleitian shotilil at any tinte ~o itito certain
loilgo   ((Oil`ifter i~sue-tlay, he ~voiiliI`~CC ll.tgs of fliiiit- liilt'tl ~iiji; itiltl it' lie ~~hotiltl go
a gain tli  l1~t~\ b tote i~siii tl~y, lit ~` iitiltl fi ittl tltitt they Ititil tlis.tllIil' ~tri' il.
I h~tve a~cc~~t~ti iii'il trout tito ciii iliiyt5s tliitt the iloti r 51 itt;kotl ii tilt! ~f to prairie ~vas
.t lot tit II lilt Itt!' til by NI.j itt \~ li.tiii, tail been slot oil tt 1' iiit I~at itt!! ii~, 01111 liittl heeti
brou~!it ilti~vn it ~liiirt tittic before ~Ir. 1Io~iuer's visit, tad stackoil iii! tlto bittik of tlio
ri~ ci, bet~u~o tlic`~ ~tot " a~ so itiglt tltiit it ctiiiltl ttot he ltrl)tigltt over to Ilic agoncy.
This flour ~vas trausforreil to tile lt~y 1)r. Diii! lels, aitti I, havo Issued itil i)f' it tii f lie
Itidtilits, Ilionitli they coat plaintil bttferly about tt, not froiti itliy' ilaitiage it roce i~ ed
~vlioii  tit0ketl~iiit tlio bank iif the rivor, btit becatise tt ~vas originally bittl, atid becanto
~`oi so iiy' l)cciiitiiii g ninsty' by' age.
As regards flie recoiniitcitt1atit~a fi)r ii special agent, if tite getitlotnait covets flie lob
of counting Icillitas, littil stiro I havo 1(0 olJectioa to lils tryitig it tilt ti~ese; he ~`ould,
lierliajis, got iiiforitilttiiin ittoro iltiltitrtltat to himself than to the Departtiio~tt.
~~ery rc~~~icctfally. ~`oiir ohediout ~ervaat,
J. 4. SAVILLE,
~ntttii ~tiiti' Jiitiiiitt igolit
lion E. P. StitTit,
Coetotisilonir Qf iit'iioit  LfFitjts. 
435
COUNTING THL INDIANS.
Agent So~~i11e to COfl~fl1jSSjO,~C? Sotith.
RED CLOUD AGENCY, I). T., D,'cem1~c~ 29, 1S73.
I~ co~~ij~1iance`vitli circi~lar froui office of Indian Affitins date~l April 14, 1573
reqolno  a report of the number of Indians presen~ and rec~iving fo~d;tt the time of
the lssIle thereof, I respectfiilly report that for the fourth quarter, 1573, the number
present at time of each issue is as foliows;
Lodges. People.
October 1                                                                1, 990  1:3, 9:30
October S                                                                 2,100  14,700
October 21                                                                1,795  12,535
October 23                                                                2, 3~5 1(3.71(3
November S                                                             2,:31(3  16, 212
November is                                                              2, 371  1(3, 597
November 29                                                              2,31:1  16,191
December 9                                                               2,33(3  16,352
December20                                                                 ~,300 16,100
The above is the number estimated from the report of tlie Iiidians tileniselves, corrected as far as possible from outside inforniation.  These figures I thijik too high, aud
I l)ring the issue of beef down as low as I can without the aid of fbrce.
The nuinberof rations that I have aetnaily issued is an;tverage of thirteej~ thousand,
(13.000,) and this I believe to be near the nujiil~er of ~eople here.
I have con ii ted the Cheyennes and Anipahoes, and fi!l(l 1,909 Clieyeiiries aiid 243
Arapaliocs.  To these I have issned, of food other than beef, about two-third~ rations
to the Sioux I have issued about one-half rations.
Over the beef issue I have not so much cotitrol.
Dnring the month of October, when the northern Iiidians were coming in, thev
reported nialiy in ore lodges thau they had.  I reduced the number as much as I was
able, but as their demands were excessive I could not avoitl issuing a greater nuinl)er of beeves than I thought dne them.  In order to keep the issue soinethiiig near
right, I let the tinie pass to ten days.
On October 21 1 cut the issue down., aiid atteliil~ted to force a coilnt of their lodges,
with the result stated in iiiy monthly report fi)r October.  This raised sue Ii a tuu~nlt
tli~it I was conipelled to anticipate Ilie issue of Noveniber 1.
It is inipossible to make a regular issue of food to these Iiidiaus.
Very respeettolly, your ol~edient servant.
J. J. SAVILLE,
lIon. E. P. S~iirie,                                     United 8tetes Indiaii Agent.
Coniniissionc,r of Indioii 1,ltOj)'8.
Agent.~orille to Coniniissioiier Siiitli.
REt CLo~~I) AGENCY, D. T., P~c~nib~~' 29, 1~73.
Sir: I have the honor respectfully to report that on Vhristnias day I maile a f~ast
aiid called together the chiefs and princi1i.tl inc ii of tlie Sioux, for the Iiiiri)ose of hi ilig
lug before them  a~ain the question of countilig tlie pe~iple.
Red Clond, Red~Boy, Blue Horse, and Slow Bull lia~l prolilised me that it should be
dime.
I itilkeil with Little ~~~onnd the night before the council. aiid he liDinlised to favor it.
`Flie Prospects seemed favoralile to accoiii1ilisb this desii~ible (iliject.
~~~lien the council net Red Cloud had to be sent fir t 0-ice bi~fote lie wolilil con~e.  I
exlilained to them the necessitv for nil lii beriiig Ilie people. that they iiiiglit get tlie
Iir(ilier kinds and amount of al~nuity go-itis. aiiil that I niiglit be:ible iii, is~i10 their
rations in a more satisfactory manlier. I reail to tlieiii the circular r(~i1illrlng iiie to
l't.liort the nilinber of Indians receivilig fii~d.  I g;ive it ti tlieiii a~ tlie ~vords tit. the
Great l7ather, and Il
a sp~~ecb a copy of  lat this was reqilileil of tliclii bv him.  Rci
" hich accoinpai,iies this relitil't.       I ~ loud ales.iiid iliade
I believe that ii reflects the SeOtililelits )f Ilie council, aiiil it ~vas alllllaildeil liy thi)se
pr~~:<eli t, and mostly so when he spoke of tlie tlcath of theli' liclilile l)cilig c.'~ii~cil by the
~` bites.  And when he said thev had res ~lved to In iiethiiig iiiitil they get tlii' giiii~. anti
rein ~ed to take anything in lie)i of thei ~. lint:i m;iii Iii;i~l,' iii atte fill it tti ii~i~iii~  hiiii.
II.gh ~~ elf and Red Dog spoke and i'~denseil all that R(~il (`1(1011 h-id sai~l.  All the
rest of my preteiided frieiids were allen 1.  1 told tlieni that I would (l'~ notliiiig more 
flU oL 100  0 Ii:    t ii the~ l~i(1 (~S I o'1~o1uirto~ tloeiii tO) (~0), I slooooo}ol o}oo ooo1tloioog t() g&t tloeooi
OIly I
I 1o~o~~ ~o~ &10 O1~O ail 1iooio~  olt. eooootr~o1}ioog  lois i's~O1o (Of  OtIlOll  (~NOO~lOt loy' foorce.
I'Iocsc cloio 1  ore ~j~'o}oooos of o~oolo oot1oo~o' c;oo~lo`try'ioog too,~`,Oi1O 1;o~'oo1' 11000)10, tioc 5)10 lie's.
`1'loc soololi r  arc oli~~at i~t0'col'. i to,~~olc1o 0,`oiotl 1010 re'.Io,o)iooololc, l-oco~oooooo 0  oiooorc oo~'o'r1)c~oti~o  110
thcl  dcooo{oooois cvct',' Oli1~.
~`hcy' ac IlOy the ~voo'koooen ~~`lo ile at lioloooU. aoooi taiso  11))rc or 1c~s o1i~turloaoco at tioioe
of i~soo iii  becf.  i~rooooo olliC,~5)io to) tloe ioext it is 11 coooi~t;ooo t coooto~ootioon o~'er tioc
aoooo~t eooc}o shall ha~'e.`I'hos \~` bile it is.`oloooost oooocoioloUiOlOlO. oooi~ht ho ooVeUCO1O0C ill
t ilooc  boot tlie ooioliuat i(O1i5 bccooooc lOiforO aooOl nooore a1o10:orclot tlooot tloe yoofl     o are
1)101)001 ilo    Obi' ovoir iii  ~he  ~oo'i0ig.`1~loe eX~oressioon ot Il0o~ol Clo 110(1 too lot I loe  issue  of
ratiolos   c(lIitiliiOe o  or 0 iiiotil 1oti00,l~, aoool that Obey' ov ill \yooit foor I lie`400015 toiotil tbat
tiooie.~ coo10~ cy 0000 iooi1oliool oli coot.  Lucre ate oloaloy' I iool 000105 ioo'ro " loo are ill foivoor of
SlOStili 1(0104 1000. ooiool 0000 ~~1'~l    1 to all at Icolilots at v iolcooo~c  looo t 0 loo'y:orc ovotrooleol
0000(1 ileooccol`y' 0 lie lololtO o~a 0 like aoool resO lc~s ooooojooo'i ty'.  Of Iii  1011 oooloo'r`vioto otrO sI)ceocly' 000 fav~lr oot' lo0~0oe0~. I helio~vc ~1io1o-;~fraio1-oof-lois-1 loots  is I lie locoool.  ilo' iooot Roil
C looliol. 1  too.iizo~ol loy' t lie 10iOoJ0)i'i ty' of tloc 1 iooliaios as tloo 1041 to oooate hcoio~ cloloof of tioc
Iloollas.  1 havo ioioiociolool too looioo too ooiiolo~rtooke too 0010100 lol  l)o~o)lolo. oooool oloo 005 Gooverloioo'oio U olciio ooiiol~. olt I ho'y' o~ ill bri 104 ti.ooiilolc 11100)10 tlocoooscl`.o.s.  lIlt. loas ioo'ooooooscol tto iloo so
boot soiclo 0 1 li~    1 gooioizoil stooto oof af'ooii 5 I hoot I looovc Ii I tie hooloc oof lois 000o'o)011 lolisloiii  0o1'~y tliio'~.`flic oolol 1000100 toolti loot' t~oot Iii  L'rooovs looool liovitotl looiio otiiol lois 50)11 too
~`o it olo ciii too footlil 0 troato- of }oi'ace.  1 Ic roioooorko~ol I hoit ho' olool hoot l('o&o~v ~vhy' obey'
o~'i~~licol it.  I li.'ove lcaroood froioo oothers I 10000 it 15 ooiooloi'st oooool 001000)004 the I oooliaoos that
I lie C 10 Ol~    0100)1 lol foorioo 0o otolohi ooootioooo 00401 ilist tioc " loitos.  lie also toolol oloc tlooit
0 lic ~l iii ilo'000 jo 10 liiool oo oloreil all t loci  1000)1010 too l00o\'0 Iii  agelocy', 001001 1 loot I he-v iutcii(1o~l too l.''a 1 0 005 500(000 as tioc glass stoirtool.`I~licrc arc cviolo~io0 ly' t~vo 1ooorties here,
0100 for 1)00000 oooooi 0000 ftot ~~ at;`fhe ioolicatioos otre that tloe ~var I)arty is ga100l00(
~rooiii~ol ooiiol
f)io I loc 24Ilo~~ 0000 IV ioriobahly iii the iooajority'.
ioostaoot, footor yoooig 110000 froo00l I lie ~~~azooza cailop caoooe tO) 0)10 aool (10oioooiio1o ol 1)100 iokets aootl 400 los as ioay for tioc I looher, coot at the iooill. aoool 100 00050 they IvotO
roOoi~col. (10 oleretl lole to take the 100000 Ii'ooioo tioc uoill.oiool Stoo1) tloo ~~ ook lo~i 0.  ~~ otto this,
of 0(000050, 1 loositivoly rofusett to cooiooply.
Ii000 so' ot loc oloci9cil too St. iool tO'oo)Ios bore, a slll)1o)y (of lojovisloolos coooolol loc scoot at rio is
000000 11 0 tiototot oxcit 0004 the s00sI)000011 ot the Iiooliooois.  ~1y' soo~o~oly'  tol liay- is SlOtIlOlelOt
0000 ly'  flIt lily' loorsos oiiotil tioc loost oot' ~1arclo. oliool tloo~rc 15 1000100 otloct lol 0 lie oooooootry'.
1{ooy' 00010 loc ho light oit tcasoioalolc ~)t1Cc5 too tloe I0latte. bc1io~v the oltI oi'~coocv.
I tosloectlully rooluest tliat, 1,00 case auy 0000)ve\ooollt of troollos 11000 this coulotry be coo)teioiiolootool. I ho iitotohetl 100 Iooooe too iotcioare lor oooor delouse, as other lvi 50 our lives
~`ooild uoodooilotcdly 1)0 sooctificed.  I ~o ooold also stoite for your iuforooatiooo that every'
fl001'(lOlt 10 t.okiii  lolat~.~t 1 ott Laraoooe is ioiooocdiat ely re portod to tho Ioodiooios by the
balf-toretols aootl 11 hite 110010 tooato'ied to or liviog ~vith loodloon 1I'(o11001O,.  It 1v0o010,I be a
great ad~' ailtooge lo the agoucy if thos class of 100t500005 cootolti he 1orooloolootod 001000004 to
tloc  0 gt'10o'y' 11 11 loooit 0) 11.055 froooio I lie cooiooooaotler it i~oott Laraoooio.`I~loc iciogtli of to rue
ot 0 okos loll 0010000000010 icat oloas too 1 e.otlo NN osh iio,,tooi, outl tl, 1)oossiblc oN IgOilOy' that ouny
ariso' al oily' to 0000, is lioy' (`Xcii so foot ~-oliiutccttoog Iloese sliggo.stiolis at Ibis tioioe.
I o lol lOot 1101 OoV 0 1 hoot Iloci 0 isoolOy' oiooiloeolioite olalottel.05 too  as ~ 0 10.010 101 olyol food
for I ho' iii. 11000 ooo'lo is I bolt uoocettoii ii 0010010cr tlooot I ooiooy' have to tooll foot 0 o'too~os at ilOy'
tioo.". 0000)1 0o'0 too ooil 1' loololte s~otioo g 00100105 lucy-`till he neetlool hore.  Iii vIol,' ot Ibis coo       -  0    0O{110010(l.0 robert oot' too 1otcseiot cootlitioooo of tioc agoolty' loo Ol defeosi I.e
too 0001'  II 0
Vie1V.
~`ho l-llio}ll hogs oi~o1 I oocl'oodo olte 1000010 of tioeoio 1110lt0 fiii islicol looi t 11' itlo goool ovoathor
`IC 11 ill l't.01111 too ioooo~.o tlot-iio iu Iloc coolirso of three o'o'oks.  i'lOo oigo~iocy' Os si~oiato~oI 0000
aoo clova 00100 III,`~loo oiil loll)- ii ooootlreol oiud 0 ~vcooty'-five foot olloovo oioiol 001 oo'loook loog ~~~h i to
Ri vol'.   N'o'c holoolol looovc l~o 11  too tlooot ol 010,0 ii lo ohtooi 10 IVoOt or.  -~ I 1oto~so~iot (((or 500 ~o~olyis oolotai oiool it 0 51101004 alooool halt oi oioile ti istoolot.  TIvo tistotios, ((ii  ot 0 lie 11'00 rchooise
aootl (0100 it tho hooi'io. ~voou1d givo the lot'st 511 lololy 1I'lOo'1o tioc silo ilig-lolilos ((01110.
If thlloo~l0t loccessoory'. thoso cistotos iioiglot ho boo lit 10011', ooootl Iii led 1l'10 ii 11 oolcr ftoooi
tbe sl0Oo)t0.4~y0tJ~~1~{~~~u~~y~ yiooir oboollcnt SOtI oooot,
J. J. SAVILLE,
~aiI' oo ~Iootts Jooo(ooooi Jfocflt.
Ron. E. P. S~1ITit,
Cononoissionco Ioodioooo Iffairs.
lied Cloood's speech.
~~ Le'~o the C~i e~ot 5 plo it malo us. be gale 10  I1oo looo~~.oiiol.000011.  lit  a1 0 ~ tool the
gun.  ~Vo olte I ryio  to do go od, all 1 arc stIll 1100101114 foot Iii 400105`110 10011 ioeoiole. N~~lieoo
1 was at ~Vasloingtou to see ~.reat 1athoi'. ii) soiool I ~Vas too litold liii siolo of the Platte 
437
for thirty-five years. There ~ere did4~r~nt ~vhites caiooc h~~re ai~d l)roII)i~e(l`05 gons and
ani!linnition if  We wonltl niove olit h~~re.  I (li(i not bCliCV( then at tli~ ti UC, ind I no~~
s(~~ they (lid iiot tell ii tht. truth.  Th~y ~ere l)r()l11i~(~(l to this llati()Ii,:iiid`ve ~vill
still look for tloen~.  ~~~e`valit nothing iii excha~ig~ f~r t lit  tills..& lt,iii t &(ii1iitin~ onr
};{olile:  I`viii say that we will do n~tliiiig otitil we g t tlit  itt  tli;it Were Itrotitised
~~~t`vant tlie~ as Soon as yoti ~an ~~t tlient.   ~oti`vhite tiit~ti li;ivi a great utaity
ctti~~s-five or Six.  ~on can cotint yo)tr litoItle, l)ttt`ve c:tttaot totitit  tour   liii`V as`ve
li:i~~e ito etitteat ititi.  There are se~~eral tlittti~a till Sioti x.    T`vi tliittis';ittil Ittilges.   ~~on
.i~ketl toot. often abont (.otlnting otir pt~oltle.  I niitler~t toitl yooi ver\`vi~ll. lout yoti tell
rt~at l~atlier to scud us those  this,.`iiiit We`vill tlit'ii talk iltittit cittilitilig.  ~~()ii Were
brittiglit tilt on different food thaa`ve acre  atid I hliitoie the`vhite fot titir lOcitlole tlyin~
it fast.  our hills are aireatly ttt~cotiiiiig red`vi tIt titetit.   [All tiol iii  t() I lie cittlitis
etiveretl " itli reti flanotel`vhich WC li;ive iiiatle for tltetit. inti 1001)001 tt~tl  ott st~.itl.tiltls. ]
tir fit hers tttlil its tttotit the`vli i tes lttttg igit, toot' t li;ot`ve colt It get pleti ty tif giiiis
frtiiii t beth tit lion t with.  This is all I h;i ve to sav oiti~~~ atiti all`v Wa tit is tlte  005
a itil atitoit liii tittOl, tinil We`vatit yt}tt tit get t lien fitr its.  ~~itoo con 1 sue t';i tlttti8 to these
liC()ltlC tlte s'.'tttte as oioiv It titil slot tog: ~ve will wait that bitt  for tlie gioIi~.
Age t ~`ot~iile to (fooooiissionei.~ot ith.
RL'tt CL(ii~t) Ai;o~Nt ~`. J~'1)i~ititty`2. t~74.
Sit  Dotritig the past nottot tlo I lia~~e teati ily l)res~ed otItoto the Itotlitoos tlie tiecissity of
lICtiti ittitig tile to cetint their peottIe.  There loas iteeti iii tie ii t1osctt~~iitto atoloing tltetto, and
I thitik I loave at neil gootittil atotoog tltiose tiotist devitteil to  iio:ti ii t;ii iii ii  t lie ageticy.
They are uo~ foilly aware that. in ojiler that they titay get a Sotlicieticy tif food, I must
kutiw their nototitiers.
Iii toy contentions with theni several itojtitrt:ttit facts have becottoi apltaretit.  The
chiefs are but the reltresetotatives itf tloe sollliers, and, although tloty have a certain
influence over them when pooshed to speak in council, they exitress the opinion of a
majority of the soldiers.
Red Clood's people are titostly of tloe hostile party, and have getoerally exerted a contritllitig intlotence at tioc ageocv.
There are a noitiber of soldiens of tlie l~iiiesies, ~~~otzazies, atod other loattils, who are
devoted to the agency, and, if encouraged, will defend the agency and enfiircto tloc orders
of the Deitartment.
ltoitopkito~Seed, heatl soldier of tlie ~~~azazies, proposed to tile tlotit if I woold arm teit
tif lois stild~ers be`voold conopel tlie rest to have their bilges cotinted, additog, "An
Joitliati loots great respect for a Otto.'  I ant well convinced thoit this elenietit otay he
toseol to ticcotooplish tloe nooch -desired object of coontitig tlte Itidiotois.  I therefore
re speettolly reqooest that I toav he perniotted to give to. Say, fitor or five of tloese head
stilil Icr a goon atiti a oil no noil ~~~~~, ito Coi~e tli cy toiki) litilti with iii  itiol Cittloit tlie I ~ei) plc,
and that I olay lirotni~e tlicni that tilt ire will he atoned if they lttii~ C trote to tite (it'ov
ettooit~tit.
`I'liis otay foil to acconop islo atoyth I tog.  I tli look it well worth tryitog.  It' I coon aci-tino
1i~{SnIio. this, I shall he otble to reaclo the hi-i t~c stettlitog ottoil tit lti~i 0000 oioN.Ot0ic~  I lotonglo
~~et.v teslicetfitily yiior (ilicilittot ervant,
J..J. ~A\~1l~LL',
110010t~~}~~~ioPi1t,t'~$ot1c~'1~?ittiioii 1 /?,~oio'~. f~tilttit.~~,otti. lit (Ijit ii lgeii!.
~!/Cfl t 8ei~it[ Iu ott.'  ii 1 it ith
I? t:ti ~`Li it~ti At i~N~'y 11.
I  i00000,j1 14, l~ 1.
ti'l~tt1~~ tit the ittoottlitto tit ot~I~ijt' ott titi oigi~tiiy-. 1 ltoovt tloi  llittltit ti~~liit(tt.ioll:
t~i  bolt tltoit ito tit', 1 fiorts tit itoiltoti tloi~~i  lotilootot t   totlil' ~t~o olo toot tit ioiti~oioi~iot et'
o lii I.,i~ i'ttittoetit telooti ii- tti l~~tti iii I  I ottoil tttoitiotgi~ttti.tot tit' titi lioo~ttoi~~ itt t lii oi~i~ttey,
I loot vi liei~oo hoot y iililti'isei'l liy I lot  ~l 0000    ioijiitix  k'01005  \tt'  ototil itt loi~t' titit t 1oct no
lio~l~~too ~` loit 1o~tv~  pIlot tlii  Ni'otott~t ott  tit   0141 tot. ~``I'loiy lt:i~ i  tooti:0   Otoot io: iIioi~ooce
ttN'it I lot    101(04 ItielO tit. the C)gotlloilloi otiotl booth  tiot otis. ottoil:1  liii  i Itt   0(100 lii tout cub tit  tit.'  o  It loot  li,.i.to ot Citoostootot sttotg4li  (too tii~  It to Iio'i~~'ioot iijt.''it loti~t I] 0tIi~.  litot
li~'  i,'t    i~tot0ot.i' ototil eoioo~t.oott ".1)01 1.iOtot'i 1 otto tootltti 1OCt Ot'`0' 0 lot'`iIt~ioi~t. otitil iootiti-d
tlo''ooo ooo t'.t~ tit tit  CoittyloOg otit tit~' ile~igt1~.   I'otooolly tiot' otiiotloi'o to lotiltoiti.1 ~`t'  111 tloc
 
4:38
1~ope of getti1~  t1~e (~~~11a1};os to  ~~in ti en~ ii) ~~~~r aio(~ C(~fl0O to floe aio{~ gave notice
tli;tt tiocy ~vere  oil)  to )e&I\~e. aiod or&ier ol iiig to take the igelley oiot of the country
ho}n~ht for tljc~e Ioo~ ijios c;toiie 110;)1)()iit 1 lois tiiooe, aii{t I askeil
~~he loreselots I hatl
I~oooe llorn, of the north the ~tiioootcoooojoo ~x ]o~ader, to ci)iiic iii hefore lic lcft, as I ~vislicd
to  ive hiioi sonoethiiog.
He caioie iii with ahoont t'veioty of lois iooen.  ~~~hen I hail assenololed the chiefs aiotl
~oldiers I reao~ aiod explailicol tioc treaty to then), poilotilig olot`vherciii they had violateol it. and finally assureol these iiorthe On nien that tho (joovernolient ~vonio1 do nothing for theiio. nor give tloeiio aiiythiiig, ooiotil they ahanolooiied their loostile attitoode aiod
canoe in as friends.  I otlcrcd ~~one llorn a present as a 1oo~:~ce-oofIeriiog.  ()ioe of lois toicli
oooot~lo~e tloc door halloooeol at loioio anol lie refuseot to tako- it.  I olistroloiotpot the p rese its
to the (~gall;illa chiefs aiool sololio~rs. aiiol they ~oleolgeol tiocuiselves too defenol tlie a~~eiicv
niiol obey tloe oroler~ of tlie C;r~ot l~ather at \~`:i~hiii{~tooii.
Tioc ioortlo.~rn Inoli~ons began ilnniediato.ly too break lot) iii to war-parties. aiiil tlie next
olay I w as w',orioed by soOlile of their ineio wiio wo~re frieioolly with nie that four diflerent
iii en looool ro~solved to kill iiie.  ~Iaioy of the (?)gallail;t soololicis r{iiiaiiieol about floe
oto-locy. niool all becaiooe o1oiiet.  I felt tliar I li:id gotineol`s victory over their war-party.
Kooowioog t hoot ~~l;ojoor Hoowarol was in troooohle " i th tloo'~o' lo;Lrties, I voile olown to) lois
`o~elley too  cc if I cooooiol renoler hi iii aloy a~sistanee.  N\~li ilo I was there, alooooit t ~vo
o'o~l ek nt ii`~lot. oioy ioiglit-watcloiiia ii Ii not gooloC to) ~~leep`ill ~ )lic;iloo'e ioioli'.iii cliiiiloeoi tloe
-to~ekaole. kiiooo'keot at the dooo'. anol catleot lioc.  ~ly cleik. stoore-keo'too'r. iii ii L)r. ~ liro
ON eve leelOllo: iii the roono.  They got lop aiiol ooioo.oieot tlio  dooov, niosl I lie dens sI etopo't1
olot fto`ON;oko'n ttoe iiiterpoeter.
11  t0o ok 1 olot o few  teloN from  tloe Iooo~iaoo ovlieoo too' Nl0(0t 10:100 ttovooii to tloo: to:oot o-:1001
Oleol.   N   ogootlatla. Nfraid-ef-I-~agte. woos so'oot foor nit'., soul whi to' it \~`loetstoooie t'otol t he
Joooliooo~o NN'ti(o the assassin was.  The ooext lay ttio' oioooio appeotreol ilo tloc coiliojo of l-~oonian
Nto~e, ii~'nv NVtoetstone agency, and sooooe IOvoote's  killed hiioi.
TIoo' i,~,:t:iltattas have since kept a guard day oioool olgiot over the agelocy.  Tlocy totol
otie 11:; t tloe~e Indiatos are detevuoiooe(l ion woor, of whioto I 0'- as satisfieot twoo oooooioths oogoo.
I to; ve 1o0'eselotetl ttoe sitoontion clearly to theo~. anot assureti tllo'100 that it is`toy belief
float ttie (Joveviooiocnt would send tro)ops olo this couootry ooood loo0u1N~lo tlieiii, asid iooov that
Ilie ()a:itl;ollao 10000 st say what they were goilog too olo  tlooot if these war-parties passeol
ttii'oool'' to tloeio' coouutvy olie troops would eel taiioto poiss tloioiogti altor tlitoio.  I to day.s
,`o'iotO oil coolo ooei 1 ova  lot:lol  all tlie halools loao'e t0IoltC(l in flu  ott'tt'i'iioi ioatitoio to tlefenol
the a~o olcy. tto loao-e oiothing nOOl'  to olo with tloe oioortloerio Iioiliaii~. aiitl 1oi'eveiot their
ON av-)oortits frono passing through this countro-.  They ask foor ariii.N to carry out tlois
i'o-sootootioooi.   I ani oertectly sootisneel that a hioioolred ~po ought lot uteotle goons, ploced iii
itoe t'.ao:tl  of sooclo iii COO 00S I caio select loeo-e, will ilisuve tocace loere. toriiog iu~C'razy Hoorse,
he: 0  of I:0' too.~t lt  C)gailalla, ond so'ttle olie elni 1005 otiod olisootleetioon growiug oiot oi the
veil:)?'. ot ott' otie oo go'iocN'.
I~o'ol I_1o0110t v0'ttllets that these sololiers be potiol foor oloiiog guard-doity aiott acting as
o'-o'oi't~.  I woootot respectfully recoinuiend that this toe 0l0)il('.  It oo'ill  ive tloeiio ciii10000.0 Oooo lot oioid teootl greatly toovard kee~oiiog tlocioo froio\ goilog ott' iio oo' oor-tootrties.  I
~o'iot:100 o'~o'oovt witlo tloc hertlers for cattle. oooid to-iooorvow stoat  sciott`igiot oooeu to) the
Plootoc to o'~ctovt a freight- ratio throtoglo.  These I have proiooisctl to pay.
N' o-io lt~lotttfl)lt.N, your obtoticiot  coo ant,
J. J  SAVILLE.
(~nittd.~ttolts roitiitioo Agent.
lion. E. P.  011Th.
(`0101o0i5j001t1' Ioeliooo A~t?'oio'.s.
~igeoo( Stoo'il?e to Coooaoitsioueo'.N,'iooilli.
Risro CLOUD Acois-~c'v,. D. T., ~hoo'ch 24. 1`74.
l'o:i yoouv i~.fovnoatooo. I tin N-C tile loo~iior, respeetfoolty, to i'etoooi I Iloat I lioso e ilcoOl to
co.0 tO 10510.```` veioootiiio o C  iio -.  I tiiool 10000100' ioiore tloooio I
ouilo.t toot          ot tioc loooti.oios   u   at ti  a~t   o
exloceted after tloe stni}itoeolc tloott took lilnee at tloe fliole Irtoolo.iiooe hero'.  I looto'e
atre.iily 0-100 ootlo'o~ 000 co to 0101 IliOlONJOOl ~iooox, niod a nooioitot i lo.oo e iiot yet coiliC 110. so'o:ioiinglo' hniogioog toe tNvo'o'lo  ooloooi to 010  too ci) i'oott loiciot ooiool to'ao- i log foor tloe oltort h.  Nlt I lii.'
c'heyeooooo's. eNo-elot Toovkey-Le,~'s.Ooooatt coo ioo~o oof 21o~  oi'rsooios, liao-e  oboe ooovtlo too Hoot
Rio'er.`I'loo';~vnlooihtocs o'ci)000i io tit'i'o'.   ~t tlio' 1 n~t coooiiit tliei'c oo eve.?(o~i oot tlieiio.  I sloootl
cooooot tbeioi 1100  wo'o-k  nuol toy oiext iiootil oo' ill give foill vel Ovil  of the ccio~ois.`Ihey will
aggregate locoor o;.o:oooo.
In tloos CoOlOiOCCtltolO. I woll ro'spo.'ctto~lly stoote float we ar) oooot975;14]oo! tooocooio. liao loog i~aolt
floe last ossole iebronvy`2.  NN e 1000N- C fort y-ooloe boorrels tof slogar. o'liollgli for three issoocs.
()f all ottoer ratiolos I have enooooglo. toy:1 ~tigtot veoluctioio of Ilot' roil loon of cott'ec, to carro
oioe tlovoooo.'h tloe year. lortlo- odeol I toe iio blob`i- oot Jiotlooooos is ooot oiocveoosctl. If I aiio per iioott cot
~Iiotake. 
439
to issue beef in lieu of bacon I sh:~ll need no niore tiii% yea~ but of sugar it is very
desirai~le to have an ad~litional supply, as it certa'iiily is:i very iniportaut hart of the
childrt~u~s feud.
To-dav a fliesseTiger canie in froiii the can~p of Black Twiu~, hostile C)gallalla savin
that be`vished to C()nie to the ageticy tir tr~a~1e: that he Ii;~t~ lit~ar~I of ~~hat the ~ii;iuecoujoux ba~I done. atid ~~ished nothing to (10 ~vitli then aritl (li(l tiot`vi~li a ~var ~vitli the
~~liites. I to niakiug CverV etb~rt to l~ritig tlic~e l)eol)le t() the agetii~v.  if tliev cati
once he selJarated fiotA the hostile ha rids lfricita~ias. ~~iflIieco1iJiitix. anti.~aiis Arcs a ~ar
oi(y be a'~ert~d.
Si rice arrival of tlie troops these Indian  have bt~eri very (jtiiet arid oltedient. apl)ar
ently trying to prevent any colli~iori ~vitli tIt  troitps.
J~~tl Clout has apol~tgized tbr liis sjteech of Deceriil~er 25, arid lias done niricli to attine
fir hi hostile siteecli.
~~ery respectfully. yorir obedient Servant,
J. J. SAYILLE,
l-fe!i. I:. P. S~ttTtt                            f~titi'd ~taIi'.s f?t(tj(ifl 4geitt.
(`0')  i s~iOflei' of Ittdio ti 1 fri ii~'s.
Igen t &~O`i I1( to Coiti iii issiott1,t' Sot ith.
[Te1e~rarn.
Rr-;rt c~LOt'it A~.'r~cv.
J)oI,olo l~ttitory, Oi'Iobet 19,. lS74.
~`(t~tJi~Srt)Nr:r. ()t' INi)IAN At:i:~it.
!f%t.sh i og tot, I)  (~.
All of tlie (,)gallallas ~vill be here this ~veek.  I request an order frorii the f)epartnteri t
to tlie Iridiatis at this agency requiring then~ all to utove their canrps to the agenev
anti be connti~d iii front of their lodges befitre receiving their annuity gootis.
I~lea,~e re~tly by telegr;tph.  ~Icsseriger ~vlll ~vair.
J.J. SAVILLE,
C~titid Stetes lit tIio it 1 get t.
igetit Sacilie to Cotntiti~sio0er Sittith.
liED Ct~ourt At~~~cv,
I)ekoto Tei~ritotjt, October 19, 1~~~4.
Sri: The northern Indians are nearly all here, and all v'ill be here this ~`eek.  ~`he
unrulier registered is large. vet altout the sarrie as vt'as estiu~ated by lodges last winter.
I believe that the ori to her i~ riot far froni correct  but as there is rooni fitr donut rrrrtil
they are actu;tllv coririted, it is desirable that`to attual count shou~tl be triade.  I think
it ~voulii he very'diffrenlt, if riot irtipossible. for nie to Count tlierri ~vitliorit`tit orilor fritrir
the J)e,partnieitt.  I have, therefore. telegr;t1tltt.il`(skin an ortler diricteil t(t tit Irtilt;trts:
reijirirrrtg tlietii to otove tbeir cani1ts near tlie agertcv attil be counted in fritrit of tlit'rr
lod~es before tliev ieee ve their annuity gottils, arid I firitlier iecorriritertileil tii;it iti case
of r'efit~al, that I`be aritliorizetl to stit1i their i;tt,ittii ii ri ti I t icy strhrritt to sire Ii eri tinter~`ttiori,
~~ery reslteetfolly, your obetlient ServOrit.
J.J. SAVILLy,
if~tn. 1; P. S~tiTit.
UniltIl Stit ti's Jitiliti it:1i~ tit.
Cotitnissiotter Jitelietit.41Teit's.
4gcitt ~i t'~(1C to cotiitirtrn(1ittg t~,f1ict'r QJ' Cetitiji Pobitisoti.
liED Cr~cturt At.~xcv, D. T., f\'ot'cmbet'.1, l~74.
Tiiere &`iit' s()riit  itt tlicafior~s tli,'tt I tint`~tti rig tti C")tttt' tit to issue ~v i tit t ltt'~t' Inil
.ttt (iver t lie i tte,~t ilirt itt' Cittiti ti og t lierri.  I t itt'refttre re~ cetfilly itti1riir't' if yt iii have
it. eit~n fitree tit ir'ot cc t tit age tic",.`tg.'t i ri~t tltt' itt ii oil it it'i'c of' I lie Itttli.'tri titt'.v li   
I "`h,'it fore, voir ettitlil ltl;iet' itt I lie`i gcr~e v iii e;i~t' OF ~tteli`tit t'',t.r t
ans\ver' liv rt'ttirn cart icr,
~~ery re~peei' fully, your itbctlit'n  crv.'tnt,
.1.J..~AVlI.I.l:,
.~I.ijor ~It; ~rt~,
f tit (`(1.~t~t It  Ji(((ititi lgt'tt f.
titi tt(tlttg (`out; Lobit soe 
440
(~)fl1 1)1 1)iiJ1~/  )~Nc~1'  I C))))]  1'obi)).~o)) to  I I'  I
1I~~~~i ~2j~~~i~i:1:  c,~~.~It  I))l)IN~) N.  NilOl.)..   N    ~~n~i~~o  7,, 74.
I i~II1 o)~tiiicte~1 1)~  t1i~i t'))I11)II.)0lI'1 1 o!.ii~er of Iii is 1)))~t t() 11) 1)1 N~)))1. Ii
t~) ~ OlOF ~))!i))II)1I)I~~tI))fl of this  11110, tli;tt 1  IlIlolbi)  to s1i~  ~~ }i)i1i~r 1   1i;~s   s)it1I)~I)-.I1t
o.'~i~~ to ~~r~ tot tioc;)~oIicV &.),`~1) I o~t tlio 111)1 te)1 11)100 of t lio Iti~1i:iii~.~.`~  1i~' i~ otiail` i.~oti
of ~v1i;it force the 111)111)05 0110 1~iiiig.
11)~ &lirects 11)0 to sa,v that lie 1i~is liiiir (4) c~ii)ipo1)les,,f I if:~  t)~V,  if f~ii~t,v-1l Ve (47)) 00011
e&~Ch aii~1 oiie (1) co'iip~ooy of o1)v1)11~~. of forty~.~cv~'io (47) lii).!) tlii  101 1)11(1 gi)ar4 liot
40)1 tooted.
`t'he c:i'..~~ry ~vIt1i I loc )~X0i~j)t I~iio )f a fe~~ 110000  1)11)1 ) (1))'  1  i~i01iili:)l1.v )f loifaoo I ry~.
1011 Ilie firco' liat c.~oo he.~i):)10)1 ii) j)rotect the a~e00cv le:ov 11)  tloc 1i:o1:ioi~e to l)UOtoOt
t he jiio.~t 1110111 i)'~C0i 0 orceitielO is:o1'0.i'~0.
I 1000).  Ir. very ru.~1ie0tftilly, yooor ohedlciot servaott.
NV. ii. I'EAS1~,
I)o.~I TIc toooon t N~Iio I/i fiolion ti.y. I'O)t.1 iojoo lao I.
~fr. I..1. SA\~0Lt 00,
[~ii Ilod ~(it it!iitlioo ii  1 jtoo I, 1'o'd (`loootl  1 goocy, A Iio~.
.Jgcoo t.~too~II1c to cooiiooooiiliiog olficco  of (to nj 1~obIio~ooo.
I~ED c,t.touo  ~o1ENCY, I). ~`.. Ajionot')' 5. 1~74.
Sill: Vi)  y(otlt I 11fo)r11110t Iooio I ~`.ooo1o1 resloect fiolly StIlte tlolot frooioo tioc 1 oo.st (11011) 111 1)0.'.
otlIoc It 15 lOly oj)l11l010 that Iloese Io(llaoos 00011(1 iooooster froooot Ilfieeoo hoiiotlrcol tO) t~v o
tlioosl)tid fio~lot1iog o~en, t~vo-thlrds arn~e(l ovitlo  01)5. tite test ovltlo hoo~vs aotol arro~s.
~`loe dofooses of ilie a~ency yooo have seen.  Is tioc Iooro'e y)01t lotove desi~ooato~ol lio your
001111001111101)11011 of this date sofficlent to hold tills t1'~o'1O0V a":0001st tloe IlloOve lounoher
of loolitoto.?
N~cry respectftilly, your obedient servant
.1..1. SAViLLE.
CO Itt tI 3'totco I)1)t1oo)).1 gt.o) I
~`0)~1~iAND1N01 (~1~1~0eEu, (`01))]) J,oblooson.
(`ooiooooondioog offieeo' of (`aooUo J?obinsooo to  ijoo oil.$`oo Ilir.
IIEAI)QUAitTEO1s CA~1 1' I~OttiNso N. NEOtO:.. -No en boo' 5, l.~74.
Sill: Iio reply to your seeoiod oouoiooooiolcat 10)10 of tiols date. 11)01) Iio.~troieted loy tloe 0010)ooo:oioillu   iilloer to soy Iloat, 1oresumiiog yooo loave refercioce to), aotd ovliercin yo11 iioo1oiire
I~ tlot. foroo' yott have desitt'ioateol lot yooor    OIly)   coiooooooooolo'at Iioio of thl  o1itte soofilclciot too litoltl iloe ageilcy," &0., fotrui.~loiug oooly the otovalty, 1)11(1 0)100 cooooiotouy of
Iiof:iiotr,v frotto tioc cononoand. as togaloost tlt'teeio httioolreol too t ovo 1 looooosaiool ligloilOog
ItoolI:oio~.` t ovo-thlrols ariooeol ~vItIo  1105." he helieves It ovoooolol iitot loc etooooiglo if tloo'
1110111)015 cotoccoitratod all theIr force oil tioc agelocy   hoot It Is J'io11y toll tiotot 01)11 he
sloared froito tlils 00i0011)101)(l.
I otto fttrtlio'r 111~tr00ctcol too say to yoo tiotot tloc cooooiooaitol Iii  oooll00cr ~vIll ioiot ~olcdge
lolto-o'lf too  o'tool the cavalry Of' 1010 otit rotol talto's place, boot lie ~vol 1. ~v loo0oo I I)  ioi~ooooeio t
arrI N.e.~, tlo'ctole ~vloeo her to seood t~vo 00)1001)1)1)00.  tot 1 toitototo,0. 0)0  1 lio  0.00.ol I   ~ oolioloail.0
nuol 0110 0)1' Itifoti try.
`Flic i'o3lillll:)tiolIiitl tift~ci'r exloresse.  a ~`.oslo to see yooo Ilol:0 l'to'r:ioo. on:01 ibIs 01)10)10. if
coonvo'itlcitt, a ho' o~ toii:ohle, oOv 110   to his dut1e.~ of lOtO jo:ii.itoooto, toi 00)10)0 000' or to 1100
a',o'100v'
I an~.  Ir, oviflo iiittch rc~pect. -volor ohcdieoo t sci~vtotit,
oN'N!. if. 1'l \.~E.
1' orost Liciotentont A iii Ii l)o/OiiIi'J, 1`u.~t J t(jooltooo
N Ir..J..1..~~vii.Lt'..
I 0)0)01  Slot I,.  Tiiolitoio. 1~t iol. Jo d Clooo(1 igooncy. Acho'.
oil.$Nto'i lit to (_`oooonoIo.~Ioitoo'.~ooItb.
I~ED CLoot~io &o.o.Nov. I).`1'.. -Nooo'tnolioi' 111, 1574.
Soot: I loavo' tho' lietier rc~l)ect`1111." too foor~~~torol to  I:tt0'110)'1o t tot' I lie 1000 oooloo'r of lood iaoos
loy 100101:11 0o)lt olt:01 t1oI~ a'~eio0y, otod octti Ilool loy t1ooo~o' ovloo tos~isto~ol Iio I l)o' t'iooooot.`Iloere
ova. tot iocli ol0po.~itloil to the coo tit, ao:ol at oooe bole 11 alopetol o'tl I 1: tot tIori'0 oo'ouid he a 
forcihle re~i.~t;iiice to the or{1er.~ ~r t iii De~ia i~tiii i~ii t.  1  t tlit, ~riii lig' ~r I iii~iaii
s~i1,liurs bad In och to do in briiigiog Ot)(ii t q iii~t I liii t~ii;i~i1 iii  lilt to iccitni 1)1 isli f1ii.~
ii~iic1i-tIesiret~ o1)jt~ct.  ~fao~ nor h~rn Iriti i;iii  lift ratlitr t li;iii.~iiltiii it ti  tlic count.
I~onc iIorn~s hand of ~Iioiiecoojonx aotl sevei;i).~iii;ill 1t;iiitl.~ tif S.'iii.s.~rc  N\~Cl.t  101011
I ho.~c ~~lio left.  ~~iie result of tlie coil lit t~ontiriii  tlit.`il(ltlttx iiii;itt~lv      et regi~tr;i.
I 01) of tlie 1iidian~ theiiiselves. (~ver lia 1 f tfI~i ttio \\~ttiiiitl~ lt;iiitt (`iFC ii Xt~1ti~i~k.i:i liii n tio~.  I have ordered ~Ir. I~roivne, Ilit.~iilt-.'i~eiit. ttt Coil lit tliciii ~vht~ii lit.~i ri~~cs oi~ the
ii iiiiIii)~-~roi~iiti.
~~er~ res1tcctfn1l~~, your ohediciit.~erv'iiiI.
.J..J. ~~A~~fLI~L.
Ifoii. 1;. I~. S.'iirii,                                 f~fl t((1 ~Iu ((`.1 Jit(ijti it  l!/~fl
( 0oinii,~ion('i' Iitdioit 1jfuir~.
THE YLA(~U-STA1-'I' Ai~F~~I1~.
lJ(Cflt.~ari11c to (oniini..~ioittt.~oti(h.
{Tt lt'~raoi
RL'li Ci.tit'ii ~t,i;Nt~~',
1)tiko(ti 7't:rt'itot'jt, ()(`Iobt'i 24,1 S74.
111)11. (?().`l'll~~IttNEl' OF INDIAN Ai:FAli'.~,
I). (`
JF%t.~A ittgtoe
Nestei'dav I li;iti a pole l~roiigli t tit tlie a'~eiit~~' fir`i tI;i~-.~t:iti).~iiiiie Iiitl iii  r:iisetl
<~l`JCcitOliS tt) li;i'.i ii  ii ll;ig ot t lie i~eiiey  T~t-il'iy';~ l;ir~e 11111111 icr of Iiitli;i lis ariiietl
0 iitl Ii.'~i i~tetl caine Ill aiitl etit tlie little iii        I ci letI 1) till) l~t1 ClOilti, ~`lio ~`as
(reel) t to prevent it, but lie refuseti.  I c;illetl liltitli tlie iitjl itarv fir priitectiiiu.  A
siluad (if twenty-six cavalry, tiuder ctiiiiiii.'liid of I~ieiitelialit Crawfitrd, respituded anti
niarcheti bravely throu~li several liuiitlrctl ariiied aiiil p;iiiitetl 1utlia~is.  ~Iauy of Ilie
agency Iutli:iiis iseil all their exertions t() prevent a collisioii.  The leatlers of this party
are northern I~idiaiis, antt the i~iiie hid)`vho r'ii~etl;r disturbance at this agency last
fill.
.1.J. SAVIL I E,
Lnitt.d.5'Ietc.t' Jii(tItin:19(1(1.
fgt'tt I.~o 1' I1( ttt C'ttiii tit i.~sitt ii`i Stit tit
RED CIttUtt A(~i:.N(:Y,
floko to l'ci'i'i tot~y, ()clttbt'i' 24, 174.
Sii'.: I bave Ilie lioiiitr reslicetfully to reliort, relative to tlie distiirbani'e at this
<`igelicy, that on ~~ritl.'ty, the 2:~d ilistailt, I liad ltroiiglit ttt tlie agelit'y a little fttr tlie
lillrltose of erectilig it fttr a il;tg-statl'.  ~t tlie stIll  tililt' I vi ~i ti'tl tlit':11)111 (if I~ittle
~N'ttlIliil tti:i~certain lio~~' inany~of liis pettltle were ~~ et lu-it',   I ~v'.ts sil isiit'il I liat lie liati
iii;itle faise stateilients abont it. lIt'`va.~ at the`.i~eiicy`vlii'ii I irriveti;iiitl ~v;ts angry
iecaii~e I h:id`.l.~Ited bis caiii~t.  lIe iii;ttle sttiiic reiii;trl~ iii tt1i1ttisi t ittil to raisi it  tnc
lag-staff', blit I pait{ no at telitlon to it, kno'viiig tli'.tt lie`v;ts 1) liii ill- hiiiiitti'.  I3iit the
iit'Nt ilitirit iii  one ot the leatliitg Itieli (if' 01)  tit' tlie hurt lit'i'ii li,;i iiils s1itike 01)1)11 t it.
hid I explitneti to ItfIn why I lvi   liii)  Itt pill it  lilt.  Iii is set liii ii sati~f.i~lilly.  I still  lit not Ililul  tlit're ~v.'i  iii~' iIri';tt 01(1(1 i.~i t liii) (iii I lii' lt;ii't tti' flit.'
Iiitliati.~, fbr it had lieeii  freti ueiitl y 5 1tok cii tit' iii  iity' titlict',;tiitl 501)11' (if tlit' Iiitli.'iii
".lio lia i.e becis org ii    InC  to 1(111  lilt  ii  (`till licI l-hiilisi'  reil iie~tciI that 1 itil t a 1 title
iii) it itiitl gi~t a ila  ftir tht-ni.  I-his slitiw.  t liii  tlii  oltltii'5ltiitlt 11.05 Iiilrt'ly fictiitii.~.  At littoti 01) l'riila~' 2:l~l, its I Chile tilt fi'Olii liii 11(1.i lii ~~ Iltillilie I' of Illillitlis
ICel I' 1 lisitte the StitCkilile, hut as tlii1 IVi) littt liii u~it;il I Iiits~eiI tilt tit tlit' ~Vit rt'litiii.~t' to
it tentl tit (tllic bl1~itiess there: wlit'ii I Cit lilt.' till t, I lie~irtl it 1)1111)1 tt.-r tit' Iiitl ~itlt5 liii Ilittiiii  111)0 rnliiillig ttt\~ ard Ilie litile. I Itilti Ilieiii to lea~ i' it ilititi'.:iiiil tiiriietl tti  11 titlvititi
I lie tillice. aiitl t heit tOt iceil,`vItat I ilitil litit 1 it'fttre tilt~i'r~'t'il. I lilit it l.ii e 1(1(1 tutu it!' flit'
lietililt' Iltele`veri' iitii'tlici'ii Iiitli;iii..`triiieil thu "`it Ii tiiily tlii'i i' lil`iii 1~t't itiiil It    li-clttii 11
(ill.`I'hey 111(1 it~ iictl 01) iN:iiiil co iit lilt' lit' etl tit I' ill flit' litilt'.  l~i'il I~' liiiitl Ii ill.
iiitlie tillit'.
illiti I iskeit lii lii lii 11)11 tlieiii, hiit lit-' i'irt'li-~s1y i't-iii;irl't'i1 tliii( I lit'". liitil lit'Iil it (`tililicli
titil ileti'i'iiiiiii.tI Itt tie trity' the 111111...~:tl'liit'tl I iiili;iii 11 t'l'i' 1 ilililly:itlii'l'ilig. I t'lit
tit c'.'iiii1i Jtttl)lli~ttl) I\tr 111101)   Ii' t'liI~\'-~lN ltlt'li ".t'l't'.~l'lit tI t\l ii iiiitlt'i' t'itiiiiii;iiiil tit'
I;it;i1tt'{i;iii I ~` i':t'v tin 1.  1~t'ftire tftt'y'`~ttI lien'  t'~'t'r.'tl liii iii   I liii iaii  li itl 11 ri l't`il`lit 1
I t'I \ i'~ itlelit liti~t ile lliti'iititiii~.  litit:ilt~tiit Ilit':i'.lit- liii).'' ii 11:1`I~~' tit'.Nl;iii-.t)'i';iitl.tiI-liI~
lIt i1~e~' 1 t:ili tI  iit'.'ttlt'tl  ty.~l It) Ii  IttilI. CitIlit'  lIt  hill rii~Iit.'iI ii'' ".t't'ii flit'  liit~ti1t'  illtlt'iiis hut   tlie  1101 It~, huh`I' itli tlieii' I' ill-i' lii It  lit''.tt tlit'iii It.ic..'   I lii litt~ltil't slaitil 
442
ni~ flit I)(~F  of the fuit~iit~lv Ititijait  {~iitir~ly ~~ist~oncertett tito liostile.~, aittl after ati
hour~s exeiteiticot they tlretv iii tti their cailips.  Si tt iii`u:ill ~vith;t0toi~t t ~veiity of hi
in~t~ lia~~e t~irtletl tli~ a~eiie,~ ~ iit~e titti I iteriri 1 ttt~tI tli~  ttltlit~r ttt rt~tii it to tltt~i r cittitlt.
I lo hot tlii tik that I~ittle \N~ttiiiitl litti;ii~y~thlti  t() do il0 r;tisiitg t lie exeitt~ittetit bitt
~vas ~iiii1tly stat iii  t lie ttltlt(t~i t 1(111 o~li jeli ~~~ts ft~l t lty t lie ittirt tent Iiitl i;ttiS, ~~~ltieh I
kne~v not hi n~ ahitti t;tt tlit tii:te.`I'ti it ~xeiteittett t lt.~ clt~ttl~ tIotti~~iistrated tIt ret ittiportant facts
ltt. That an~tin _ these iit~rtlierii Intlians there still reiii:iiits a bittt~r hostile feeling
against tit ~`hitet.
2nd. ~~ ii (`it Ot' tit  Iiitl 1;tii ~~~litt ii ~`e "it titti agt'ite\' tli t tt'r 1t:ii't art' at t ritl~- frienil ly'
and ~vili ti~lit if iit't'e~~~irv iii tit'f~iite ttf tIt;ig~itt'y'.  N'~~t t!it'rt';trt' t iii'`1 tilt ittlter, ttf
y-ttiiiig lieu t'tl~t'el;tll y'. ~~`ii ilt tiit'~' ~~`oiiltl hot I ti;ttigli r:itt':i  itttt~'t'ltit'it t ttf tite li titi`ire
alo-ty  reatly- ttt jttiii  tii\' tit rltiiit'iit tittltreal ~"ItieIi titty    tit'.
3t1.`fl(('it if ally' t1tlt'~ti(tll itittilti:t'.'i~e ~~`1tieIt t~'ttti1ti itt~'t't tlie ttiiitt'tl tt1t1ttttitittit t)f tltt'
Itidi'tn~. the itittilter tlf t rJtt~ts lttt~ted here ~~`t)ltItl hti eiit irely' itisitllieletit to tiefead ttte
a~~'lit'v.
`fIt Ieat~ert of t lii ott t Itretik are tlie sattit  ~`lttt tttt)l  lit Itristloer l;ist fill ~~`1teit I at.
tt-'iii1ttetl tit ettlili t tlit'ii' bilges.  I ti in 1itt~v titttroitglil \` tilt vI iiet'd titit titit (4overitttte tit
eati safely' trti~t:t l~trge it tittilter of these [ittlitint ~vitlt tititit tI) tieft'iitl aitd kee1) order at
the:ig~liey'.`fIt  titeit ~vItottt I tlt'lteiitl ttiion for this ~vert' It()t l)retteltt`~` lien tit  ontl~reak COfli liteli eetl.  lIji' they it ave ltt'en here it ~vott iti tit)t It iv iteetirriti.  I ~vonlti te~teetftiIly' stl~gett tli;tt several tit' tIt  littlitta stiid'er't itterit a rt'ettgiiitioit frotti tite Git'.~riiiiteiit for tlte lirni stttitti they' ittive taken on 11 t)('l';ttit)1i5 iii prittitol iii  triter at tite
agefli'y'. aitti tite coit rage toil etiergv ~vit1i ~vltieit tlti'y' fiteed`titti tlriive It:ielt tite bostile
ititliaiis iii this tinthretik.  Nlatty of tlie itortlierti Iii tli;t ii hive left the ageitey'  ho~v
niaiiy' I t~o tot knotv.
N'ery respectfully, ~ottr oliedien t st'rvaiit,
J. J. SAVILLE
(`tilted $`tilies ~tidittn Ageitt.
Ifoit. F. P. SMi~ it.
(Jo tit iii 1~~ltiti et' oJ' itt iii' it - lirtiri.
TilE STA~~PEDE, OCTOI~EI?, 1~7i.
I gent  ~ori11e to  Contntis~iotiet' ~nti1h.
RED CLttL'D.~i;ENeY,
Jatittitig 2J, lS'74.
Sio: I have the honor lit'rei~'ith resjteetfitily to traittinit st;iteittent of bei'f-cattle
}o~t`it I~i'iI ~` Itititi a~eitey' t1 tiring titi f?nrtlt ilitarter 1~7:l  aitti tit fttrtlter exitlaitatititi
~~ ittilil tt'~1ti'etftilly tit C that I itatl  tist reci'ived front the etintractor a large n tititlier
of etittle. liaviti' titeit tin ittititi tihoat tli)() Itetiti.   TIte northerit Iniliatis ~`ere contitig iii
daily, a ittl there ~eas ettit~iiieraIile exeiteittent antolig the litilians from  causes exltialited
iii itty- rt'littrt fot Se1iteiiilter titti Octitlier.
~lie itiglit ot tlie 9th itt t)ettilter ":15 stitritty', aitil, hear ntorltiltg. a tite liet ders ~tate.
ati I iitli:iii tarteti tite cattle, anel alitint Qilt) of titerit ~vere statttpetietl attil scattered over
t lie cittilitry-.   Xiit liti ciii   eiititi'~Ii Ititi'st's tit' itteit tit ititlil tite ht'ril titil tit tite sti lilt' t I tile
recover t lie lit~t ctitt le. I rt't iiriii:il lit' c;itt Ic ott itaitil tit tite ctttitractiir 5 lictil. tal~t ii
itis ri'ci~i lit for theiii.  I sttirti'ti t lie het'ilcrs titter tlie lust etittle. aitil iii flit citit rse tit'
three " cek  tlit'y iC~ O~ i'i til all hot (~t lie~itl.  I lt.it  tn~tliy ot tlit ~~i- " t rt li)~t I cliji e
to tit neglect of the citii'f lii'rtler.
-~ i1itest 1110 art is  t't'gti i'tliitg 24 ltead, ilte cliit'f liert~~~r eltiliti I it  that iii otte Itit lie hail
retni iteil 41 licail. 1 itt tit  t'itiitt tictiti  clat iitt~tl tit~t lit' i i~tiirtteil hut 1.i lit~~il itt t he liit
ittioted.  ~~iiltsi'iiilt'ittIy. ~lr. lIi'i'k. ti freighti'r sttited thtit the herder Ittiil stttitl tit lii
camp tite iii lit lit') tr~'~ tilt' 11111  tlti' etittle tutu titi, hi ril.`11111 that hi' tail hut l.t lt~jd.  I
~~`tts tItt'ref~ii'~' ~ ~it1it'l let I tit tit'eeltt  tlte 1011111 tier tis ti fti'i'ti.`l~lie cli li'f lti'rtli't' ii titi tit tilt'
several fuse ttitetiti'ti ts tti'tttt t tlie it i~s tif tite etitt it', tittil I il iseliti i'geil 1 liii fttr tieglec t
of duty'.
N'ei'y' te~,tteetftilly'~ y'ii:tc tiltetlietit servaiti,
j..1.  ~~V ILLE.
(`. ~. litelitin Igent.
IIoa. E. I). S~it1ii~
~`)inClis'tt)iici' o,f' itt tile it 
44~
Ntat~rncnt of b~ef-catt1e 1o.~I at Ped (bed agency, D. T., during t1efo~~'th qI~arter, 1~73.
Octohe~ 9 two hundred head of beef-cattle were stampedod. and sixty-seven head
lost. w~ighing sixty-nine th6nsand eight hundred and eighty-one (f;9.~~1) pounds gross.
I certify on honor that tlie above ~tateuient is correct: thit tll( iiiiiiib~r of cattle
therein stated were lost  that the weight lia~l been iilitaiiied l)y killiiig nud weighing
twei~ty (`20) head of an average size, &L114 thit I useil ill diligence aiid c;ire withiii iiiy
power to prevent such loss.
J.J..~AVILLE,
C~eit((1 Stot~.~ Indiuii ~~geiit
TilE STA~lPEDE. ~Ei~TE.~II)'EI~, 1~74.
~g~iit.~a  11 to C'oninii~iii~cr Snijtlt.
Ii:i CiA)t~i ~N(;i:.NC~-. I). F.,
1)~ct'ni1ri 21. 1H74.
Sin: I have the honor herewith respect filly t() tr;iii~iuit tli&'  fliduvits ri~l:itive to
tlii j(~5s of catt l~ from the agency-herd aiid their retiirii to the coiitr:ictiir'~ lieril, Sep
teiiiber 7, l~74.
There reniain one hundred and twenty-eight head iinrecovi~re4.
T)iligent search and inquiry have been iii.'iile and n(~ tr;~ce of tlii~iii caii bt f(iI~ii4,
excejit the trails leniling to the contractor' herd, ill of which entered the herd except
a trail of thirty or forty head, which trail was lost on Stiake Creek, aiid there is ii()
po~itive evideiice that it entered the contractor's herd.  ~Ir. I~tisler, wlio lias charge of
tlie contractor's herd, returned to tlie agency one hundred and lifty beau, whicti' he
acknowledged to have returned to tlie co~tr.'ictor's heril.
~~~hile I have not, and caniiot get. the positive eviilence that tlie whole number of
catile lost entered the contractor's herd, yet the circuiustauti.'il evideiice leaves scarcely
a iioubt that they did so.
I respectflilly refer the n~atter to the Departineiit f(~r settI~~nieiit with tlie coi~I ractor, or instructions as to how I shall priicet'd in lii'. iii;it ter iii tlie absence of tlie
c''I~traeti}r.
Fy respect filly. your oliedient servaiit,
.1..1..~A~~rLLL.
f'..~. Iiidioe lgeiit
I l~~n. 1~. I~. S~iiTii,
Coin ini~sioii ci' Iiidioii ~qffa ii's.
Sit'oi'n stotetiic,n I f.S?i(i'i(1on l!~'J~i'i~tii' I
Iii coitipliance "`il Ii,voi0r reii lest. I lierew i tli reslii'etfiill.v siiliiiii I a ~t;iti~uieii t 1)1
ficts in reg;ird to the lo~s if cit 1  friiiii tlie agency-beid..`iiiil if tlii' ri~tiirii if tlii'
s:iiiie to ~~tr. Bosler's herd. neir Chiii iie,v Riick. oii tlii' North I'l;itte l~i ver. ti'iiiii`vli~Qli
}il;   they had beeii Iriven.
~~nder your direction I took- charge of ~~4 head (if cattle, near Ilie agi'iity-ciirr.'i!.
fit ~lark, on the 7tli (if Septeiiilier..iiid with liiir t'v(i nieii st:irteil t() tiki' tlieiii to tlie
;ii~eiicy cattlc.range on ~~~liite Piver, seveii n~iles distance.  It sooi liec;iiiie ~l;irk. ii iii
iii order to avoiil tiniber anil brush-which we oiil'v coulil h'.i~-i driven cattle tliriiiigli
iii daylight~oii L)ead ~faii' Creek, wli cli in ist iieeess;irily lii' cro~si~il. " i're coiiijielli ii
t&' take a cireilitotis route. and cross I)e'.iil ~I.'iii at tlii cilgi' iit tlie liliiifs.
\~`e niade the erosAilig aiiil got tlie e;ittli.' to the lierd-caiiij~, a we i iii.'igiiieil it tjii'
tilile, all right, and as   they`v( ti  ~ Cii ii lii I liii hut w;iii t t(i riiiiiiil tlii~iii iji:iiiil ciiiiiit
I lieu i)n the i'Jth.  ()ii the iii(ii'iij ii  of tlie`.~i ii I ciiiiii ti'il I lii' cittli',;iiiii liii 11(1 then'
"`i~re 2~4 licail iiiissiiii.,
I ilnuiciliatel.'- Stilited "`it Ii oni of iii-;i~~i~t aiit~. Cli'ni''ii Ii lternai'il, ti):i~i~i'rt:i iii
when tlie cattle li;id left tlie iii~ril. aiiil t  f lii.iiiil ti I'll', r tlii' iii. it jiii~~iIi1e.
iiiiliid they l~iil left Ilic liird iil cii iii li;iil ci i'~~iil 1 ii:iil ~~I.'iii'. (`ri~i'k, 11 tl)(' iiiglit..iiiil
1~iil procecilcil iii tlii' ccci- k iii Iii'.i~r iili':~iiii iii`ii iiis tlii ili~' ili iii a (iiitlii'.'i~ti~i ii
ilirection. sttikiii'g Ii'iiiiiiiiig ~N~,t,'r it tlii ci'ii~~1iig iii ili, 1   i rii.'iil.  I'lii'y stiijijieil
ti  fid cin ~ii,i1i)iiig N'';iter;iiiil siattcreil tit:iliiiiit tllti'i' ii i'`,      [I.   i~'      
444
`111(1 t lii  it.ti~~r t}ii    ni i}~~  t() tlii tt~i~!`t'1i~ ~~~t~~t tt:~j1  (11 1()O~t~(1 tlI( ro~ii1 to tlie i~ro~~iii
t~~   ii:ik~ ( 1'(~t~k 1 ~ 1~f~ tit rtt~ii1 <iiitl ~)()Ut t~a~r tt,~v:~itt tlit t)t Iit~r ti~ai1, t1i~ f~vt}
tr.'ii}  ~ttIi0 ill  tit?t1)t~U t&~ii iii 1t~~ iittI~t ii  r tIi~ Nitutli 1'l~it ti~. fuoii~ ~vIiic1i i~1ace t1it~
TF ~~t~1t~t1 ty t)Ii~ tr iii ilitit ~Ir. 1~tt~1t~u~ r~tii
NN~t ~tii~Iit tit~ ~` itli t hQ t~at 1~ a  I lit~y ~~~urt  lii I0\\lii 1  IV i ti  Iii)  it' ~Ir. Iti~i~1iIt' catt1~
ii icli h;iil;itlicri il till I cri~ck`jr ~v:itt~l',
It ~vioiiiit li:iI't 1i1'~i1  I!i110OA~1 1 iii' ~~ii' 10  tt) 1l~i~c t;j1~t'io  ill itt' tlic C;it tie IVC  li:iil  }ii~t
t'i'iiiii ~`il11iil1,NIr, Iii~~li'i'~, ititi I it tir~t t1itiii~iit tif~i'ttiiig iii' i)tiiiilit'i' a1i~ tetiiiriiii  ti~ tiot'
`~i~~i'iic', IVitil t lit'iii, hut.,`i ttct ti iiiliii  it iiI't'l', I kiii'~~  tli;it ~tt~ 1~ii~li~r ~~`oioti1 hot
;tt isti~i1, toil cooci iiilcti tt)   t tit ~I i'. H(iSlCt"s c,'illiIi tcIi~itt tliti r~~t  to  lois iltIlil  111
cii~it~e, gct toil t() C&'~ilili iic tlic tt~tii`jilt titjiit let ~Ir~ 1i~i~i~'t toil yiiii scttlti it as iiiigli t
S~etO liii~t, ii~it ti iii tti ii  ott tit iot~t t~'i ~v tii!il h~' e'.t~ilc ~`j~lj iistc~l
tljitoit  7 iic~iil tit' c~'tt t it left liii' iii('t~ Ii tr;iil iit';tr t lie ~v;t~~oii-roail Ci'()55i ii  ot' l)eail
Niaoi aooil tr;t~t'l&'i~ ity' t hc ro;til ti) ~v it liin ii "C noiles (it' l~ iloilo i nit ~~`ater  ~~liere they' leit
tlie t'tiail ii titi tra ct~letl iii a St iittlii'a~terii ti irect itli, cros~cil lZiooi ii in  ~~~iter, aiitl`i~:i 1
enteri'~l the of Iii oii:ii ii ti'itils 1oct`Vt'COl 1 liii Ii 11  ~~~atiir toitl ~oi,'tke C teek  kliioii t it)
licatl left Ilic ea~t traol near Stoake Cteek`mii fitllo~veil tlio~vn that strc;tni seveli iiiile~,
~vlietc I icy' li't't tite ct'cek, t't'ooii ~vliic1i ~t'e ~veri' tiiiaitlc tit fiillii~v thi'oii, ~`tntl coitlil 1101
&iett'i'oii I lie Iv lie tlier they' li'.t~t ret itt'iicil Ii ~~Ir~ Itio.~ler's lieril or tot
`Elit'e t~vio lIC iii tioc hranch ti'aiis tli:tt I s;t~' hoot I stint Cleittelite I3~rnaril tio thi'
~~latIt'`vith o~I~~ t;, ~~`. I3oslet' to sho~v lii iii tlie trails, aiid lie fiiiiiiil Sonic other Si gils, ot
lvii cii lie lviii ti'il in liis stateotoent,
It l~as liei~ij asserted tililt sonoc if tiot' ~o~t cattle t1ict~ toil Riiiiiiing ~~`ater, toot I have
cx;tlii 0 iit'tl t hi' itroliloil careful ly- ~vlicri' they',`trc s~tiil tio ti;tcc ilit'il,,`ioiil call fi nil 0 SillS
ot i';ittlc h~tviiig tlieil recently', aoi~l aiii ati~ticil that tioc a~sertion is`vi tlioiit fiiiooitla
titoil,
1~ti iii all the trail-signs anti intlicatiions that conlil lie flood I aiti satisfled 1 hat all
tlie cat tie except \hose lI-Ilich Ivent ilioIl'n Snake Creek, fioor bead, lvtiich ~vere retnriiet-l
ittie licail "`hicli doeti on Deail ~1ao's Creek, anti one heatl ~~lticlt reiiiaiioeil toot  Rionoillil'
I~~:tter, in all ahout  ii heati, returned to ~Ir. Bosler's herd, from`l'hicli they hail lice ii
dr~ven.
SI lER I DAN ~Ic' l3lATNL Y, Cit icf Thci'tiri'.
.~iilo~crihcd.tiid s~v.~ra tit hefitte iii, aioii in i~y) loreSeoce. liii`2f~tli ilay of ()ctoher,
l~7A.
,J. J. S.~VlLLE,
f'ttiti't(.~tates littliati  lgcitt.
i~1t(iii (`i oj' &`iciii~ii te J;i,i'iiarti.
I, Clt'iiieoite Ileriiaril lieiiig i~ioly- slvioto, (Ito depose ijiod say-, tli;it I aoi0 enlitloveil at
Reil k)'loiiil agelocy-, 1).`F.  a iii it lilt Oil tit`.ttooot tlie 9tlt ilay tit' Si'1iteiiiher, A, I). i%74.
statteil ill l-iiitSit it ot'`2~4 licail tif heef-cattle, host fr~iii the:tgcili'y licril.
I follo~ved t\vo trail~ froni Deati ~laii's Cri~cl tio the Nitrtli I~I;itte River; at tillit
i~lace eiie trail ~veot to Iii let't itiod Ilie iitlit'r till to tlie rigli t.  I fiill't~'eiI tioti left-haiiii
trail ilotit ~Ir. Rosier's hertl  tlie iight-hit iitl trail I liii niot fiillii~v.  lii'siile the left-hand
traii, I fi)lliid t~~'o otlit~i  niall Ii ail    iii ii   olitit`Ir. 13 islet  ii i 1.  oli   tit' a lttiii t 12 tiod
tile other of aloont 15 beau tot' cattle.  I t iso fitnoiti a Iliti I tool Silitli' L'ri't'k, ii? itittilit 4t I
beau of cattle. fotii' iii iles t't'ttiii tioc rititil  I fiol lit~vt'tl it six ni ii'~, liii til it IVt~ii I i otto tiie
~itliiey' road aiitl sa~v ii  tooti niltily- ti'i'~li liorse-Ir;tcl~   heic  titi hut t lii iik tllitt It iil
Ivelot tio the Niortli 1~latte,
I tlioiik ti~er u~as aijoolt I.~t) lii' ail tit i tttle till Ilic`i tt- ilitliti Ii.iol`I ii otli`I coot Ii itili the
Niortli l'l;itic i~iver i 111(1 NIt, J~ islet's licril, t)ii this trail altitiot ti;tlt' the cittl it' I ra~'eieit
in the roati iiiiil ahioiil t)ilc-li;tif ttiilsiiic liii' rtt:iti  i~tttoii ~vli;tt I liii I-i' st'i'lt tot' liii' I taii~,
~c., I Iloink that it ii'iist (tile liii oiiiicil itlOil titty' y l.ot) ) heitti tot liii' citl lit' ret 11 i'iit'tl to
NIt. Iiiosier's herd, if 111)1 liliOti',
CLE.\IENTE X UiE[~NAl~l
~iiitscriiOcd ijoid`I Or ii Iii  octoti  lii      i~~~l iii  lily   tit tout  liii   J;~i~ ti.ty ot' I Ictiolti`t,
I~74.
.1..1. SAVILLE.
t'ii (il`Iii Ii  Ititlititi t,(/i tit, 
445
Stotemcnt of beef-cattle 1081 at Ped C' to i(d ageilcy, D. T.. d~ti'ing tite thit'd qeartet', l~74.
iCt head beef-cattle: ~`eight, 1(3.65:)).  (See;tffitl~'tvit.
I certify on honor that tite ab~ve stateriit'i~t is correct.
.J. J. SAVILLE.
T~t ted 8tatt~ Iii (1jan  4g('?t t.
Aflieta`it of.~lt e;'itltt AIcJJi'a tit cy.
I..~herid;~n ~1cBratney. being doly s"'orn, d() dep(~se ai~il s;Ly, that I aiti cinj)1ttyed at
Ret1 Clond agency, I). T., as chief herder. ltv.J..J.`~~`iville, Uniteil States littliaji agent,
and that daritig the third qnarter. 15:4, the'folltt Ni ii lossis of cattle ocetired, to "~it
1\'eiglit.
July   S.  1 head of cattle ran off' by Indiaiis                             1,:1
11.    1 head of cattle ran off' by Iiitliaii~                          1, 036
17.    1 iteati of cattle ran off' by Iiidian~                         1, 0:16
21.    1 head of cattle died                                             1,021
24.    1 heati of cattle dit'd _                                         1, 0~1
11.    1 head of cattle raii off' by Indiaii~.    1, ((47
11.    2 heatl of cattle killed by Indiaii                              2, t95
12.    1 hcad of cattle (tied.-     1,047
1:.    3 heat of cattle killed by Indiaiis                                 142
19.    2 lit'atl of cattle killed atid rnn off' by li.'ili;iii          2. 095
Scpt. (,(, 1 licatl ~f cattle died                                         1, 0:15
9.    1 head of cattle ran off' by Indians                             1, 039
16 head; weight                                                    16,653
And I do forther depose and say, that said sixteen heat! of cattle were lost, killed, and
died as above stated, and that said lt)55e5 occiiri't'd tlirt)tiglj ii() fLtilt or lieglect oil the
part of.1. J. Saville, L~nited States Indiaii a"enr, ttr of any I)ei'son or persons having
charge of said cattle.
SIlEPIDAN McBRATNEY,
Cltitf iIet'der.
St~itscribct1 a~id sworn to Itefore ine antl in lily Itrescilce this 26th day of C)ctolter,
1574.
.1.j. SAVILLE.
t'ttited Stotes' In (11(1 It Agt'nt.
Affldai'its of.5  McBratney attd C'. Btritard.
~Ve, Sheridaii ~Icl1ratney anti Cleniente Beritard. beii0g doly sworn, tia dep~t~e anil
~ay, that we are eniployed at Red C'lond agency. L). ~., )y.1. J. saville, Lititt'd Staics
Iiidi;iii agent. a chiel' ht'rder and herder, respectively. aiid that (inrillg tit   itigltt ot Septeiiibt'r 7. l~74, there`v.15 lttst froiii the agency bt~ef-hertt (2~4 two liiiiitli't'tl`i itt! eighty.
f.tiir head it beef-cattle; that after diligent anti c;ti'eftil se.'trc!t (156) nile ltnntlreti and
fifty-~ix head ot' said cattle were recovered  th:it all etlbrt~ ttt i'ec(tver tite reiilai;tiiig
t2~) oiie linittlred and twenty. eight head have itrovet! iiitsticct,~~ftil, aitti tli;it tlie loss
~~`f s:tid 12 head of beef-cattle occnrred thron'~h to i'anlt or ncglect on the Itai't of any
ltcr~on or itersons.
`~IlLItIDAN ~ICliRA'I'NEY.
CLMENTE $ BEI.M~RI).
~Vitness:
ina k.
JAME. RoBEnT~.
Siilt~ci'ilt1 d and sworn to before me aitd in niy itresence this 1((th day of November.
A.  J). 1574.
J S SAVILLE,
I t ited`~tatC8 Itictiati I yen t.
.ly~ttt  Sacill'.  to  (` itintis~iotter Sotitit
Sti.': After tl~lj(~t.itt s('.'trt'l  ai~d iittltiir,\~. I!i.'t~t'  ltt't'it ii,t:tlt.'e to tr.'ii't' tti' tittil;tit,~' ttf
1)t' C ~tttle lttst it,?St'l?te!it itt'r 7. 174. t'xct'ltt`vlt;tt ~~ t'ii t ttt.~! i. l~t.sler\s llt'i'(l.   lIt';ttl iii its,
t  t' statei,ii.., I  (11' his ltci t(ers, tlt~'tt a ititittlittI`111(1 fif1'~ I?``. 
416
ii~~)~r lie lit  retiirn~~il. anti I have t;~l~eii tit (~t1t 1 tOil tttV italt~rs.  I  itail take further
~~iti~ttce in tlte c;tst~. anti Nit. J3~t~li~r agrtes to cittit t itis t~~ittie itS Stitin as practicable,
(111(1 shittilil be 1t'nt~ ilinre tI~tn tile ai)n~~e otte iii ttttli.t~ti aitil ti ity licati, lie will ret torn
thi~in.  It' lily other proceetling is nece~sary iii t C ol)iilinn of tile IJepartitient, I re
Iteetfolly relitiest instroctions tit that ettleet.
Yery resltectfnliy, yonr obedient servatit,.J. j. SAViLLL',
L~niIti1 ~tot~s Itidian Agetit.
lIon. E. P. SMITIl,
~~oiiiniissioii~r itidiati AIt~iis.
MONTHLY REPORT FOR OCTOlIER, 1573.
RID Ct.oUD Ai~ENcY, D. T., Notember 1, 1573.
Sin: ~ ii ave the hoitor respectfully to report that since niy last niontlily report that
I have litislieti the distribotion of annnity goods to the SittloX.  There ovas niuch dissati.~fa.ction, even 01000  the test disposi~d. at tite poor i~nality of tlie goods and deticient
(1ilOOtity. there being 0 110 itch larger  in other  if IndittuS th~tio usi~al at the agency.
iobs~qnently a large ittoniher of NIloneconjitux, ~~flcpapas. and No Bows came, aiiii ~`as
IMoch disa1ipoiitted to tinil no~ goitds for them. anti especially  10105, ~vliich tioey had been
itiforitied tl'ete lirOliliSeil tlteni.  Several atti~inpts`tvere itiade to lireak iiito the wareliotose`i"iiere tite gooils for the Cheyenne anti krapahoes ivere stored, tltey toot havin
yet citme ill.  Litne Horn, a chief if tlte No Bows, conic itt with  about forty itidges of
peoltie.  Altogether there was proitaloly between two anti three bniotlred lodges.  They
reported, however, a much larger nonther  and bein  satisfied that they were noakitog a
fal~e reliltrt, I titade an Ottentlit to cotint their lodges.  For that purpose, in company
~~itli tite ititerpreter, I rode eight miles up \Vhite River, and crossed over to the north
itle. wltii~h tlie Indians ii;td prohibited.`floe loorthertl Indians, hearing of this, caitie
in full force to tite agency, anti sent a party after itte with orders to shoot toy horse.
tit overtakitig itte I ovas iiofitriiteil of tltis.  I told itirot that it was tite Great Father's
horse. aitil if lie tliitn~ltt it safe tit shoot it, to do so.  He said he hail concluded tot to
hoot hint, bitt tired lii   on in tite air.  NN~heo I arrived at tite ageilcy I fonod a large
party ttf tite strangers, lica ded lty Big Little NItto and 1'retty Betir, two rather notedly
~~icions characters.  I sat tiowit ilo front ttf my oftice, and olte of them, ilo a rather perettiptory 010100Cr, (irdi'red tie tit coiiie to where they were,;t dist:tnco of one~~iiiodretI
yarils.  I tolil lii tit if they littil aiiythtitg to say to in  to coitie iii frotit itf my office aiod
say it.  Abont twi lii'iiilieil iit' theiti came iii fritot itf tile, and at tIt  saitte titole I saw
that a,)arge tilt tither if Little NN~{iitiiil'~ b;iitil hail cotite tip on Itorseliack to tloe left, and
Reil C toni oio horseback, witlo lots glib itefitre him, to the right.  Oiie tit the 5ttOO~~Ct5
liaraiigited thent, from  which I tutu found that Reil Cloud aittl lois followers and Little
NN ound 5 inen bad appeared titer  to sustain me, aiod gave nosy mpatlty to the strailgers.
After that Red Dog stepped tint anti otade a speech defending tile, and advocating the
cottoting of titeir litdges.  Aitil after some violent otid threateititog speeches they
ritoonted tlteir horses and roile itti'.  I failed to get the correct it it iii her of bilges, hut
boo C  et ott titot 0 ititil eltociot`to hitlo I hope`totil ri suit on obtaining a curt ct r~port of
them.  In this Red Clituil, Little NN~oonil, aitil Red i)og have itromiseil to assist inc.
Ott account of the increased ituinher to feed, aitil nittlotobteilly sititie fraud on their itart
as to their otnitihers, I have bitt been aitle to get a ittli sit~i~ily tit (`ltttllllt~.~:lty ~tttres,
~od therefore the issite of ditlerent articles are irreguitir iii i1itatttity. teitig without
sonic one article every issite-titty.
About twit botodred beau ot etittle was ron oft ity floe littitaits, as olit'ged by the herdcr5.  They are`,c,ittet cii through the bills,'    I itao' e the herdcis oittgatitcrtog titeito
togetiter.  I  tao-c coitiptiratively little tritithic with  bent utitil Si lice the itortlierit
Iitdiatt~ ejote to.  I found utticli ditfictolty to gettliog the Citey cones tit tIlt ageilcy, anti
tif the Arapaltocs hot twenty-five lodges ii ave come in.  There lias been a ilitficulty
between tite ~ioux and Araptiboes, one of tite latter bavoog been killed ity a ~ioiix,
they titerefore, will not come to the agency.  I gave the Cheycitites their gtiotls, aitti
distrihitted a poottoit of the Aroitalttie goods itere, retaining a pitottitti Itir those`oho
bave not yet come in.`tYith mitch difficulty I started tite Cheyeittie and Arapahoc
delegation front the agenty cit the 3titlt tostaut  ten Chtycnitcs atid tooc Arapahoes
forming the party.
The`toork on the agency-ltnililiogs progresses rather slowly. the utill not being of
sufficient capacity to furnish bitt fuim two to three titoiisaitd feet of ittitiber per do,
The workuieri are engaged in 1iuttiiig on the roof on the main warchotise, and the
stockade is nearly completed. 
447
The harn is inclosed, aiid hay r~ceived j~i~t jI ti!0)~ to esQap  tlie prairie-flre~, the
Indians having bnriit the prairie to tb~ iiortli aiid ~ast of tht agency whether by accidei~t or on porpose, I do Dot kiio'v.
J. J. SAVILLY.,
Uniled 8tote.~ Indian Ag~'nt.
lion. E. P. SMITh,
Coaiaiissioner of India ii ~ffaii~s.
MONTHLY REPORT FOR NOVEM~ER, l~73.
I~EL CLOUD AGENCY D. T., 2\$orember 30, 1a~3.
Sit.: I have the honor respeetfolly to report that on the 2d of Noven~ber, as a party
of tlie employcs were entering the ioess~roi~m a boy about fifteen years of a~e SOD of
J3ad hand, rode op and shot an arrow into the back of Allen Lveus, a carpenter.  A
niin~ber of Indians were about the agency, and immediately a party, led by a soldier,
Sitting Boll, ave chase, fired several shots at the boy, conipelling him to take refoge
with the chie High ~Volf.
Great excitement existed about the agency for a few days, l3ut the chiefs Red Cloud,
Red Dog, and many of the soldiers remained about the agency and restored qi~iet.
They held a coo neil, and decided that the father of the boy should give the wounded
man two horses, which was done.  The wound proved to be not serious.
T he northern or hostile Indians have given a great deal of annoyance, i~erropting
workmen in their labor, and cansing disturbance at tlie titite of issuing bee~cattle.
These people are beginning to leave for the north, an~l p;irt of Little N\'oond~s baud
ha~~e gone sooth to hunt.  This has enabled the acting ageiit to reduce soniewbat tlie
issue of beef.  The supply of other articles of food has not been in proportion to that
of beef, because there has not been etiough transported to nicet the doniand. TIt is has
caused a greater deinand of beef than would have been the case had we have had a
full supply of other rations.
The acting agent has succeeded in getting a correct eniiu0oration of tlie Cheyennes
now at the ageney.  They arc livitled itito t~vo baitils.   Diii Ktiife~s," iio~v  Little
~Volt's,~ band have 1~5 lo~lges, iii which are 2(4 fiLuilileS of 1,2~7 ~)ersoiis   Turkey
Leg's" baud have 49 lod~es, iii which are 102 f;tiiiilies of (i1~' pi'rsoiis.`Iliere has been
issued to tlieni one hiitidtc) ittil fortv-hve thiiiisaiid potinils gross of beef.
`fit is cattip h.'~~ been visited several flutes by the acting agetit, and lie finds that they
use every part of the beef'. even to tite head and feet, atid they break tlie bitues and
boil them.  ()f other itiaterial they have receiveil about two-thit'ds ratiotis.`I'his is
evideutly not ci-ough food for them.  They complaiti bitterly of not having enough to
eat  and I ato satisfied that it is so.  On the 4th of November, after the departure
of  Dull Knife" and his party, tite Cheyoniies itiet in council and deposed  Dull
Knife," and appointed`Little ~Volf" to be chief iii his~plaee.  They told tite actilig
agetit that they would not regard any treaty that iiiight be niade by tite party goitig
t() ~Vashingtou.  There have been sonic horse~ stolen froiti ficigliters by tite litistile
Iudiau~, and one horse stoltit atid otto pail' of oxeit kill~'d beliingittg to ~Ir. ililititati,
who has been cutting logs for ~Ir. IS. Coffey.  " Little ~\~oitti(l'.' aseertainett that tlte
cattle were killed by some one of his band, and canit iii and reliorted it, and told us to
detliict two beeves froni their allit~v<'tiice.
`Ilte contractor sii~t~tl,viug lit tither has f;tiled t() sititiil.v liig~ eiioiigli to kee1 tlic iii ill
goii~g.  Consequently the bitilditigs li;tve pri)grt~~~e~l slowly;
Very respectfully, your obeil ieitt serv.'iii t.
.J. J. SAVII.I.V.,
(~i iI~i1.~`Iii/t~ Iii dio ii 1g~'n t.
MONTIlLY REPOIT FOR DECEMPEl, l~7:~.
Izi;i CLOUt AGt;~Cv. I)ec~ntbyr:1,
: I have the honor res~tcctflilly ti report. that t)D oty rettirti from ~V;tsltiitgttiii I
arrived at the ageticy Deceitilter 15.  1 foittid tlte Itidians ctitii~tl.'tiuing, irrit;tltlc, aitit
troublesome. making uitrea~oii;tble deiii;iiid~, such  is pay t()i' t he t luther`tit at ilie
5.'t'v-iii ill, atid liliDiCiliate opeit 1ii of tr;tile in aititti ii nitioti. titil ifleri'a~c iii t lit' r ratlitus.
Sitme hail gone otit huntitig. bitt these were ntitstly 111011, tbt.,~ le~tviiig their`ititilies at
tite ageticy.  Also, some of the nortlterti Indians hail gliDe, bitt t 1 i~it re r si~iit.tt  C
DieD remained  and although I have beeti enabled to reiltici' thi. autotint t)f f~ itil issued,
it, lias been done in a purely arbitrary wa,v, givi i\g thetit`iltittit tite iLDi ott tit  thought
ri~lit for them. In some cases no doubt itijustice is doite, but, as they ~`ill iii). give tue 
44~
jfl ~l        ty to ki n~v tlii r~~~t  I sli~ll ~~~~t;  ~~  is fir as Iiossil~le, to rei' uce tlie
s~ii  ti tll~  tie ~v;iv.
t~or a iIt~ti il~ii tat~inen t of i~florts t() etiroll tlii~~i Iiiili;iiis, I rispeetfitily refet yon to
uty report of a cotiticil liel&l at this a~eucy Deci~iiil~tr 25.  1 have l)e(~ii coiii1ii'lled to
~ierniit the sale of a siii;~ll l)i)rtii)ii i)f:itiiiiitiiiitiiiii to tlie Iiiiliaiis for the liUt pose of
kill ilk their hee~~es.  Fo expl~iiii ~vhy a con~i~leralile aitiotiti t i)f anininuition is rt~i1uired
fir th4 purpose I ~vill state th;it, is tlte cittle are issued frotti the corral, the ln~lians
start on a ch;tse. h~~r~eh~iek, atid shout th~tn ilo~vi0 tin tlte lirairie, niakiti  tiiaiiy ineffe~tnal shots beti~re itrinitig tlieni tlo~vu.  It is estitti;itetl that froiti eight to ten shots
are expended ftir every bt~ef killeil.
`flie ~~liole a titount perutitteil ti) be soul is jive tbotts;ittil (5.00(1) r~itttitls.
I negleeteil to tate in Ntivetiilter report that of tit e;ittl ivitieli ~vere stattipedet' iii
()etolier all ~vere reetivereil hut sixty-seven  t;7 ) hi~atl.  ~ iletailed statenient ~vill
aect)ni~iatiy rtiy 1jul terly retitrits.
It h~is Iteeti iii flit-tilt to gt-t eflicient entploy(s, and  tittie of tite hest bave left on
aceittint of fear if tite Iutli;i~is.`fhis lias eatisetl natty eliaiigt~s in list of eiiiploye~s.
~lie a~eticy bitilditiks are nearly- conipleteil. atitl. ivitli gitoil iveather, iv ill be cottipleteil iii tlir eoiit-~e of fitur tir six ~veeks.  ~~~iien tite ltig-etttitractttr filleil, I sent the
iii ill lianils ititit the`voods ti) etit ltigs anil get them  iii "`i tit tite ageticy-teitins, thus
kt~eltink the iii ill kill it k alitint half tite t lute.   ly  tit is titelitS I shall be able to get
i1itt Ciii itt t~h 1 null icr tit liii isli the liii ilili ii  5 iii) iv iii cii tit-se itf erectioti.
~Flie ii ittill)t~r (if Ititliatis teptirteil here by thettiselves, itid el:iitiiiiig ratiotis, are niore
than dittible that estittiated iii iitircha~e of sititlil tes.`Ilie average titiniber to ivitoni ratioti lt&ii~e ticeti i~sitetl is a t~tiiit ilititbie tit  1111111 tiet' esti tititeil fitr, 01' tit irteeti titonsattil
~to thi  ii ttinstti-r there Ii itS liceti issiteil a full ratititi iii' beef ii tid aliout three-fit rtiis
ratititis tit' t)t liet' sti1t1tlies.
tite short stiltitly- t lie I titlians itiake 1 ittle tir ti~) dliii itlaint. exce1it that tif bacon
and sng;ir, atid eveti for this they- vi-otild ivillitigly tilke its cilnivalent in beef, titaking
it tlici r cii tire livitig.  lit coutrolliut these ItitilittiS I ii ii il ii ilittictilty tit itt ilites titit
exist, perhaps, to tit~ saute ~xtent at itly' other ageilcy'.`I'he (Jg~illallas are livideil iii to
eight ttiiild5~ headed bv as titaity chiefs (if niore tir less influence, hut hone of titetit hai'tug lioiver to cotitrol his oivti biiiid. tit rich less others.  1'hese chiefs are all jealous atill
juibittttu~, atid coniei1netitly ally thiti,,, ii hicit ulay tie aili ticated by (tile is i,ttrr tit meet
tip1to~ttittti by- the others.`fitere lire no lixed l~iivs or itrinciltl'~s tif iiCtli)tl attiotig titeut,
lint ii lien ally thitig at i~e~ of stitlicient geitet al lute e~~t tit retiutre a coticeit of action it
is titet liy' a laiv riiiiili' for tite enlergeney' by' the soldiers atitl executeil by' titeill.  Such
laii 5 are the exltrr~5tot of tite Itiriullice, caprice, or out~iidc itifluenci it poit the soldiers.
Conset~ueittly tite chiefs court the soldiers, itud itever ict in opposition to their, ~`ishes.
Some of the heati soldiers, as they are called, have otlcred to Cii u tit the lodges if I ~-i 11
grant thei~ certain f;ii-ors, bitt I littil tlteii~ unreliable, and if ive have tit have titartitil
faiv, I ivoillil itrefet tiiiit tif ottr OiVit soltllers,.  As far iS I CiiU learn, there is proliably'
no actual head chief, unless it be ~Iau-~fiatd-of-liti-llot~e.  lie is the oltlest chief,.tiid
hy ittatly' nicitibers tif iill the baud is recoguizetl as the head chief, thittigh iv lien these
t~eu arc asked alititit it they- aliv ays add cautiously'.`the ii- hites have inatle Red Cloitil
heail chief, atid of citurse we litok niton him as our chief."`fills want of a`ecogitixed
central authority I the ittitilil ililliculty in orgattiziug them, aitil if title cannot be itiatle
so antotig thein~cIi r.~, the ~~overnnieut must supply it, attil that iv 11 ret ~ nire force.
`fliese rettiarks I have thrown itito this report as Itertinetit to tlte t1uestion itow itt ISSUe
of the t~onrse to be ititrsited with this people.
~`ery respectfitlly, your obedietit servant.
J..1. ~AVJLLE,
f'it lfC(1 ~to It-i Jtt(1iitii Agi~n I.
lion. L. P. ~~Mtrit,
C~ iii iii 1-isloit it'  Jitrljit ii  ~Lffairs.
MONTHLY REPOPT FOf? JAN VARY. 1S~4.
REti CLoc-ti,~t4F.NCv,.ftitiitnt'y 31, 1574.
Siti. I liai e tlic hittitir respectfully to I e~iiti t that tlir teittltet tif tIt  Ittiltatis at this
agency' has undergotie liut little change iltiritig tlte tittitit ii.  I iiiivt' stt'atlily' iiiitl lirtitlyprcs~ed il~t)t1 tioctit t lie deittittiti tit licriltit tile to 1111111 lie t' t lietit.`1' ii is hits tetideil to
excite tiic tilt ire evil t{tsItose,tl ititil t lity- ii~ive etitisetitteti tly- 1 veil liii ctttisiiler~ibie iii lillyancti.  E i-cry issue of tier I sri cr~il ht'ci ci it~ivc (tecit  slit it ditis' it bi'fttre etiterilig the
cttrral, itutl toivard the 0;1969;553;1988]liist tif t lie ISSliC a ii nuttier tif I ittilitilS, tisitalli- t iiitse ii-itiise
liii tiles wele ii tit oil t lie list. ii'oitlil rush lit ii titl slititit six tit ci gli t lteei'es iii the ctirt'it 1.
1 iteit titose ii- ho u-crc curt tied tit t lieu  ii'tiii lil ciii tic tit tie ittlil tlt'tiiiiiiil I iit'i I' ltei'f.  I lits
keelis up a StiitC of- Cxci tettieti t ii ii il coitictitioti.  I iiai'c illiti liCi'it;iiitiity-t'il by- chililreti 
449
and boys from fifteen to twenty yeans of age ahont the agency st'aliig the carpenter's
tools and other sn~all articles and breaking th( glass from  the witidows.  I called tie
chiefs and headnien, and told them very positively that I would not submit to this
longer, and if they would liot protect nie aiid stop these proceedings I should call for
troops to do it.  They promised me that they would do so.  Since that the aunQyances
from children and boys have in a great nicasure ceasel, and Face, head soldier of the
()n~aha band, came to me and inflirmed me to notify him when cattle were to be
briiiight in and they would protect them.
Tlie sonrce of most of the diffienlties at this agency is the system adopted at its
firs~ establishment of permitting Indians to report the aniiiber of their lodges and isso
ing to them on their wonl.  They soon discovered the advantage it gave then~ to ci)uceal the true number and make a false statenient.  This has now become an orgaiiizeil
resistance to conntiiig them, and no one, hoWever well disposed, has the courage t() tell
tlie truth regarding his neighbor.  In every instaiice where an Indiaii li;~s tOl(l nie of
one who wa~~ dra~ing for more than the true nuniber of lodges, on investigation I
have found that he has told me a falsehood, and that he has been fustigated to do so front
revenge or iii alice.  Could I once overcome this difficulty, I should be in a position to
coiitri~l all others.
Until this is done, I ean have bitt little influence for good among tlieiii.  I still think
that if this can be done without a niilitarv force, it will be better for the Iiidians
and for tlte Government.  I have rold them  ~bat their allowance of food fir this year is
nearly exhausted; that I will make no further effort to get anythiiig here for tlieut or
do anything for them until they perutit ate to couitt theiit; I have alsit tout then  that
the Giiveriiiiieut ~ill certainly senil a iiiilitary force here to coittit tlieiii ititless tlii~y do
it voluntarily.  They are now ltoldiiig couiicils aniolig tlteitiselves ditily. aiid the lirosIteet seems sonte~~hat liiore favorable to acconiplish this very d~~sir.'~ble object.  About
the~~if ~)ecentber ultinto, it party of ~tiiinecoi~oiix stole t~~ eiity-eiglit head of horses
froni ~Ir. Biisler.  A party froni this aiid ~Vhetstoiie agencies liunsiteti tlieiii 15 far as
tite mouth of Powder River, where the m~tiu hotly of the ~liitneeoiijoiix; ire e:iinped.
No i~lesh leader of the pursililig liarty. reported to me that tlie ~tinnecoiiJoux saiti that
the horses had been taken farther north, bitt that they would recover thetit and return
them as soon as they were done hunting buffalo for tite season.  They also sent word
that they were all couling down to see me, and see what the Government would do
for them.
Eight horses were stolen from ~Ir'. Bosler's herd at the Platte River.  Red Leaf
brought iii six of tlieni, and said that the other two were iri the ~iossession of two young
men, who refused tii give the'~t lip, threatening to kill a white nian if they were taken
froni theni.  Re said that he did riot take theiii for fear they would carry out their
threat, biit would try and get them if he coulil.  A baitd of twenty-five lodges of
Arapahoes, led by Slt(ttted ~Volf, has gone south.  Sixty lodges It ave come to the
ilgency. I`vent to tl~eir canip and counted theni.  There are niiie hundr
three people, in ninetv-six lo~ges.  There are trom two to four families  ed antl sixty
-~ great many (if those arriving have only their lodge-poles, the        in e~ ery lodge.
coveriiig having been
worn out. Black Coal, itow can ped near Fort Fetternian, has seiit a ruititer to rite to
a~k the terriis t ~at tite Gov erlinient oiler fir theni to niove.  I have seiit a sitiall Itortion
iif anintuiiltio~ as a lireseilt, and solite sugar aitil citilee to hiirt, and askeil him  ti) ciiiue
down anti see ~Oie.   By liuttilig the mill-haitils into the woods to get oitt logs I
have si~cceeded in getting lu~ber eitituglt tii iiielose the buildings that have been comuteiteed.  Thi watehouse, liarit, oft ice, itien's (barters, and mess-ritorit are inclosed, and
ritofed with tarred paper, which`(i ill s~r~ e to keep the snow out, but they will have to
tie shingled before the slirilig-rains beglit.  The, offices, (litarters, and ness-room are
lined with niu~h boards, but)ire cont!ortable.  Ibe stitekade only reiluires batteiiiitg
tit cortiplete it.  1 have suspended buildiiig operations fir the winter, but will retluire
two ~arlienters for inside work fir a few weeks yet.  I shall set the mill-hands to gettiiig otit Shingle~tiniber and make up shiiigles for the bnildiiigs as soon as a cut-off
saw cia be obtaineil.
~~ery respectfully, y otir olicdieijt ser~ ant,
J. J. SAVILLE,
I[tiii. ij P. S~iiTtt,                               f~aited States Indina Igeut.
C'ooiuiistontr of Ifidititi Iffitirt.
ANNUAL Ri~l~i)R'~ FOR 1S74.
I~}~ti CLI`i~D -~GENcv, I~Ai~0T&, -~ ages?t, 1~~4.
lii~iittiiii ti in  tit is iitv fir~t tilt nil reliti t. I lii iii. itittler sititie eiiiit;irr;issiiieiit to
av tit I lirtil lxi ry. tite 01101' t iii its aji' chitiges it tlii it~i~ii0.\. lilivilig ticcit so iu.iii~ aiid
29 I F 
4.r)U
`~i tlit I  ~f:~t0~(~.~t 1 1;ii'ui~~'t1           (?1i~~ t~iiii~                  t~iit
1('~~11I~  J. N\~. ~)(`iI~It~1S, ~IIj tt~t1;~rt~  IllIliti 1iI~))t~~ ttr.   it    tri'i`~ii;tt
I I()1i1I(I ~!i. 1):iii i~1 ~` itli ~~ t~!i (~1' I 1ittti~titt1 Iiitli;iii iI~t I! (tit t~it 1t;tttk~
~N'liitt Jit1~ ir. IIt~~ittg i't'jtiii~i't1 iii';t~i'ttiy fititi liii' Il;tt tt'.`I'ltt ci)!tiitit~~try-~tort~s
t~:il liittlt1iiig-itiiit~i'iit1 tit' liii';t~~~'iIi'~' ~`   Iitl~i1 it~ioit tltt gritititti i'ii~'t'rt'iI " ttb 1~iiit1irt5,
I' Ii t t~':t ult,~ q u~trt~rs`v~t e  tit  a tt'itt.  As soon as t to tr~tit~ft'r t~f Itrtii~t~rt.v`vas
(tit I ilt'ti'il ~Ir. f)ait tols mu it is cit'i'k loft.  Iitt'xiierioitct~i~ iii tit s ititsi iti'ss ittysi' 1.. aiitl
nut ltitvtiig to Olto f..tntiii~tr ~vit1t I it fiirnts ttf tbe iiiisiiii'ss, 11Jul " it ittitit ll,iI)t.rs, bittiks,
tir 1 list root tons fiir it jiles, I`vas lott lit it sitfilcicit tly eint',arr~ts,~i Jig ltti~i t toil ti) ilittlertake
~ii 00111111 ica tt'd a liti~i itt'ss.
`floe Iiodtaiis`vere otitolt iii ~ati~fietl`vith tite rt'iittival if tlie agt'iicy on acoittint of aii
a li'gt'd 1tt'ttintse of grills it itil liii sos ittittle thotit tit cititil it liii t hilt t lii'y`vittild rotitove
tlte agoitoy to its }trosoit t l0('iitit)it.  Titoy`vero dispti~et1 tit ho iitstiloitt ioiitl onreasonable, placiitg limits to tite ritligo (if travel t)f tite il~~0itt anti oiititltiye's.  ~iY  ItuittlOll
was conoplieated by a ditfietilty between tite trailer anti tite iniiiaits, they having destroyed it keg ~r whisky for tite trader in froiit of tito agent's ot'tict'.  ~~iiis violation of
Department regulations conid not be overlooked, atid, with the aitliroval of the Departn~ont, I revoked itis license.
The necoity for shelter tbr tito`vi~tter was iirgcitt.  A 0(111 tract to Jilil it' legs for
sawing WitS lot, aitti fitr a title liii il~l tit  Jirttgi C5~( Li tit~ tiriol ily  hut iit'ttii'o I lit' hnildiii~s
were coitiploted the contractor fitileil, ititti I`vas &oniiicilcd to ()0Cti~t~ biiildin~s ~ar~ly
sufficient for protection tinring the winter.
Toward tite last of Septeittbt'r,`viteIt tite ~9nnuity.go~tls went to lie di'stribrited, a
large to ii iitlti'r iif Iittliaii~~ froiti the itirtitern trilies of ~it1i11( 0iti~t)iiX, ~~iiti Al o~, O0Ciii~i)~5,
anti (~~ik~tiia baud of ti)g~tllaila~~, wiito have itever acoetleti tot lie tit iiI~ tit' l~~t'~. ait  therefore toriiir'tl hostile, 0111100 ilito Ilte agency, incroasing the Oluiiibcr to lie`~ed to ililore
thito d')tibii' that for whom supplies had been provitied.
~laiiy iit these piople had never been toali agelicy before, and`vere exceedingly vicious
and in~ole:it.  They ittade ritireasoiiabie demands for footi, and sitp1tiollieltt0d their doitiiinit'~ witlo threats.  They resisted every effirt,to couiit them, ititti as their statentents
<tf their litl.tlboIs ~ore frequently exaggerated, it hocame necessary to arititrarily rodiioe tlii'ir r~ttioiis, forinlit  Itty estimates of their ii iim hers from the hoSt infitrniation I
`ititlil iilitiilit.  This caused a constant colitention with tItern  aitti beiiig uliltrotoctod.
I u,i~ ~iiittItt ilcd to talk " ith thcnt front ltlorniiig till night.  ()ii (1110 (i00it5iO0~ when
1i,tri'ttt~ttliig to coutit their bilges, I was arrested by 5(0000?hreo itiilitll'i'tl tof titese wild
iolloo~~~ aitd returned to the agency for trial; biit of tiio older reside~its of tie agency
aboitt,seve n hundre!i, arnied and 11100 nt,ed, came; to my relief aiid itro,tected 1110.
~~ hue thilS staudiiig da~ alter day " ith uly lIfe at stake, contelidllt  with those Int'!,ians for a just distribution of the food given tilOlO by the Goverto~,i~o~tt, 50110105 citarges
~~ ore ltroi1glit agallist 010 by liartles who shttiiid iiav o heel) iny tl'leli(l5 111111 silitpitrters
in~toad of perseotitors.,This greatly iltoreaseti the dithoulties iiiiilor witii'h I, labored.
lInt, titauks to the OO05ide0ittiiin ot' the Deitartutent, an investigation 00111011tt00 was
orilored. which fully vintlicated 1100.
The dissatisfaction of the hostile Indians becante greater as wi~iter ativanoed.  Unable
to Itliliti 0 them to compl~ " ith the orders of the &~ii~ oritment lor rt celistis to 1)0 tak 010.
I,aiopeaied to those who hail liveti long enough itt the agelicy to ii~iiiorstand the 110005sity of a conipliance`vitli those order~, and about the 1st of I' obrrlitry titey ileolarod in
favor of yiolding to lily direction iii iii 1 liii\tt0ts pertainilig to tite ltilsi1io,~s ((f tit agency.
Titi S exasperated tite liostiles, ind I titmetliately they bioko 0~0 lItti) siit.til u ir-[t.trtlos,
going off Ill all direotion~, and attaokiiig itli parti0s who wore lOOt`~t rito' eltiiiigh to
oppose titoni.  On the 5th tif 1~obruarv I went to A~~b otston a,~t
Itoy fttl tito itiorit i~0 ot
coti~ulting Agent IIo~~ ard in regaril to titti liro~iriety of calliitg )`itr 1000115.  That itight,
about 2 o'oiooli,, the watolt~tta~i ltiivil~g f.tli,i'n aslocit. a ~i iii itoeitlijiiiix littlian. boloiigi Jig
to tlte hand ot  Litne II0l'li of tite ~orth,  soaleti I lie sto&'katle, 1111(1 call ilIg lily' clerk,
I~raiik D. -Apiti$ton, to tito tloor, shot trod killoti itim.`floe littlian esc~,it'tl..ygent
lIow ard called 11)0 the troops, aitti, as loty eitt~1loyos`vOOC itt nob alariiteti, I titiiooti 10 the
request.  On arrival of the 10001,15 there was iitiich oxoltetnolit.  -All ttf tito htistilo aiod
rna ny of lie resident liodians lelt the agelicy' for the ititrth.  T ite exoitOlnetit, iooue~er,
soon subsided, and I co,fl1100000,0d a registration of the people, which titty load 1,00,v lotisly consented to.  Since this has beeii aooolitplished there lias been litt'ii' itr nit lillieulty, as they readily coiit~tly with aliiiost any request I make.  During the snuomer
those previously living at tito agcitc~ ha~ e retnoned.
The agency-boildings ereoteti are a stockake 10 feet high, incltisiitg a pace 200 by
400 feet; a warehouse 100 by 30 feet, with an  L " 60 by' 30; ii li;irit 11)11 liy:0 foot
three offices 16 toot square; 4 roetnos 16 feet square ftir ein~iloye's' tillarters; a luess-blOuse
16 by 30 feet; an agent's residence 25 by 311, two stories high.
The saw-mill was firs r plaoe,d in the timber about ten iotiies frolil tito at~0nov bitt in
consequence of the hostile attiti\tle of the Iiidians, for greater seotority, I ~ad it' moved
nearer the agency, on ~~hite Riven  It has been set for ninnilig ~`ith a temporary
structure over it.  I have also construoted a dani on ~Vhite River, aiid have niade 
451
(~!0( niji Ol)(I a half of itrigatio~~.ditch.  ~ni~ ditch c~in be e~t~n'led to i~Vig~tO
~Ofl)t 7).(~U(~ icrc~ )f 1ai~ds.
;iriiv;~l at the a~ency I foilnd the Iiidia~~s l~ad a Ve!'y exalted idea of their ability t r~~~i~t lie C~overo ilient aiid coi~pel a Coil l)liaTlce ~vi rli their ~~ishes. I rel)eat
e~lly calle~l heir atteiitioii to tlie fact that the hIitl'il() were aliiio~t all lestroyed, and
a ~O()!i:1 they were gone the Indians w~iiil~l be lIell)lesA.  l~eil Cl()~id seiit nit~ssengers
throii~~li the Powder River and 13~g Horn coniitry-, aii~l c()iivince~l liini~elf that there
~`a~ not ganie enotigh to sustain theta through a war  they now have:t better
utiders~anding of their situation, anil are t~aking efforts to atlapt theiii~elves t() the
chatiged conditions.  In the spring a  etieril etiuticil of all tlte liatids was held,
at which they resolved to protect any otie`vlio wished to go to firuting: whereii1ion
twenty-five persons made application fir assistance to contilience.  Not having liroctired
ally-  i'iililenieiits for this agency-, I borrowed Saute lilows of Agetit Howard, and
bisike about dO acres, in small patches, which were planted by the Indians  it, bowever, was too late in the season for emits to niature, yet it served to demonstrate tlio
fertility- of the soil wherever it can be irrigated.  The deniands for assistance to farm
ire greater than uteans at niy disposal`viii siip~ily.  ~Vitliin twenty niiles of tite agency
there are about 50,000 acres of land which ciii be irrigated, yet agricultnre catitiot be
deitetitled upon as a nieans for support of these Itidiatis.  The valley of ~Vhite River
tail adjacent hills produce a fine grass, and the coutitry is well adapted to grazing;
stock-raising must be the main pansitit iii this cotititry; especially is it ad~ipted to
sheep-culture.  I believe the Indiatis woitlil itiore renilily learti to care for shee1 titan
any other kind of stock.  Next in import~nce is the breeditig of horses and nitiles; they
have over 10,000 horses, nii~stly of inferior size aiiil tititlity, bitt by iia~iroviiig tite
stock ti itli some good bioodi-d horses. a hardy atid valu~ible breed utiglit lie pu~duced.
Ni) titissionary or educational work has yet been dotie aniting these Itidiatis, but
Jirefiarations are now itiaking to build a ~chool-honse atid establish a school. Not more
than a dozen, perha~is, of these Itidians have ever attempted niattital labor, yet such is
their eageriless to conimence some industrial pursuit that I consider the prospect for
their civilization very flattering.
Indians have great respect for authority. and strictly observe aiiy law enacted by a
recognized atithitrity  they are easily governed when one his tiie power to enfcirce his
orders; anion  theniseives there is coitiparatively little disturbance or quarreling.  I
would resliectfiiiiy suggest that it would greatly facilitate the administration ofjustice
and proiliote artier, iftheie was establish&d a court for trial and n~e~as for puitishment
of crimitials at the agencies.  If there was a court at this agency for their trial, I ha7e
no doubt that tite crititinals whom the Indians now refuse to surrender would be delivered itito my liattils. They say- it is siniply sending them to their deaths to send tlieni
to Fort Laraiiiie or Cheyenne for trial.
A strip of country aloni the vall~vs of tlie ~Vhite River and Runain N\~a
huadreil ailles east frt itit the east line of ~V ni~d fifty utiles ter, for a
yanitog,                wide, north and
stiuth, enibraces all tiie land of any value fi~r agriculture or grazing in the Southwest
Dakota tad Northwest Nebraska. This land is mostly in Nebraska, and therefore out
of the Sioux r~~er~ation.  If the Itidians are retitoved to their reservation, all hoiie
of civilizing titetit or making them self-supporting is gone, as there is no place
011 their reservation where ally nuiiiber of them could hake a living.  It is there fore
the tilterest of both the Governn~eat and the Ititlians that the treaty of 1~~S be revised
anti the valleys set aliart as a reservation for tile Indians.  Iii this connection, also, a
release of the an ceded portion of ~%`omiag and Nebraska could be obtaineil.
Very respectfully-, your obedient servant,
J. J. SAViLLE,
lIon. E. P. S'iiTii.                           Unitid States Indian ~4gcnt.
Gornrnis.~iono of Itidian Affoi;~s, JVti'si itigtoti, P. c.
SPEcIAL REPORT-ARRIVAL OF l'ROlESSOR ~~IARSfl.
PijO CLi~Ui) A~~~ev, DAk'., ~\orcmbci'`10, 1~74.
Sit'.: At the Close of my last report, tite Indians were deliberating over the detitand
for t haiti to submit to a count.  Soitie itica of t lie a'~it:itioii ~aa5C
lit. li:id from the fact that thev were in`iii t lie tlifl'~ il by this deitiatiti ittay
con~uitjtioii       rent claip aiiiiii~t coti"t~iitiy, tIny aad ilight, for ulcire than a week.  Night coua( ils are very uti usual among
tiii'se Indians, and are held only on occa~ioiis of iniptirtatict
Oii lie night of the 4th instant ah
fiiiiiiil assenibled the priacip~~l,,  oat 10 o'clock, I was st'ii t fiir by I~cd Cloitti. I
~hiets of the different batids.  1~ed Cionti ri'proachcd ate
fiir tite coarse I had parsiled, and declared thit they witale ilot lie cotitited.  lIe was
tie oaly speaker, and, as far as I was abit to jiid~~, i~a expresning the deci~ion of all 
452
the bands.  I replied that I could answer all that he bad said in a few words; that he
bad heard the order of the Con~uiissioner. and that I intended to carry it out.
There being no indications of the Indians yielding, on the niorning of the fifth I
addressed a note t'i the commanding officer at Camp Robinson reqnesting inforiri ation
as to tlie ability of the force at his command to defend the agency in case tire Indians
should nuite in resisting the order.
This correspondence was transmitted to your Office November 9.
On the afternoon of the 5th instant, one of the interpreters was seirt for by the
Indians, and he was informed that part of them had consented to be counted and
would move near the agency for that purpose. They immediately commenced moving. I subsequenfly learned that Sword, a nephew of Red Cloud's, and Young Man
Afraid of his Horse, had called another council, and had taken a very firm stand
against Red Clond, and compelled him to yield.
Soon after the first parties began to move, the northern Indians, who refu~ed to be
counted, started off. Some ten lodges of Lone H~~rn of the North's moved in to be
counted. All the rest, himself among them, started off for the Black Hills. He has
since returned with three lodges, and is now here.
The actual count showed that the numbers given in by the Indians themselves were
approximately correct. The number of Sioux counted is 9,339.  So'ne eight or nine
hundred of the Kiocsie band were in Nebraska hunting, arid were iiot counted.
In effecting this count I received valuable aid from the Indian sobliers whom I had
armed, as well as the leading men. They kept guard over the agency day and night,
and fornied a guard to accompany those who took the census.
Threats of shooting those who were t~ c~)unt them were made by many of the iiiore ill
disposed before going to the camps, but thu griard kept down all expressions of discontent when they were in the camps.
Annuity goods were distributed on the 10th instant. There were no expressions of
dissatisfaction, althon~i there was muuh disappointment at the small quantity given
them. There were 3,700 blankets for 9,339 people. Were it not for the few skins they
now get by bunting, half of them would be naked.
~Vhile we were counting the Indians, Professor Nilarsh arrived for the purpose of
going to the Bad Lands, about ten miles north of this agency, for the purpose of
making geological explorations.  He proposed to take a party of soldiers with him.  I
advised him not to take soldiers, as it would certainly raise an excitement among the
Indians. Besides, a party of citizens, with a few Indians, won Id be a better protection
than the soldiers.
But he felt disposed to take the advice of his military friends rather than nilne.  On
the morning of the 4th he came to the agency with a military escort.  In a short time
an intense excitement arose among the Indians, which I tried to allay, but finally insisted upon the party returning to the camp. I had a talk with the Indians in the
evening, and they told me that if he would wait a few days until some of the most
bostile of the northern Indians went away, he could go out there without danger;
and if he would go without troops they would go with hi in.
He was detained two days and then went out, but as he insisted upon taking troJps,
the Indians refi~sed to go with him.
The order for the Cheyennes and Arapahoes to sign a treaty consenting to go south
when the Government should require it was refused by them until the 12th, when they
signed it. I had counted both of these tribes, and, as business called me to Cheyenne,
I issued rations to them, with the understanding that I should recount them on my
return.
The estimate fi~r provisions for them was based upon actual count.  I shall, however,
recount them, although some of these people are in Nebraska hunting. The older
people were all in favor of signing the treaty, but the young soldiers of the Cheycunes
threatened to kill any one who signed it. A young man called ~Iedicine Wolf is the
leader of tire young soldiers, and is a bad man.  He and several of his followers, I
think, are deterirrined to go upon the war-path as soon as spring o~~eus, if a firvorable
opportunity offers.  I think it would have a good eftbct to an-est this man and hold
hii~r until some of tire war-spirit was taken out of blin.
There are also seine bad atlvisers of these Iiidians about Fort Fetterman.  I have
frequently been tOlil by these lirdlairs that the comurairding officer at 1'etterman wants
them to come there to trade.  I have no doubt that this h;rs i~een told thou by parties
wIre are interesed iii trading with them. I would respectfully recommend that they
be prohibited flour going to or ~~~ii)l~ near- any military post, arid that post-traders or
residents aliont a post be prohibited fn~in trading with them.
Under the agreemeirt with Mr. Appleton. the agency-birildiiigs and issue-corral were
fast approaching completion.  Oir rec~ptirrir of your letter dis;r~rproving the contract,
Nt~vember 6. all work was imiire~liatoly suspended, leaving the slar~ghter-honse, issuecorral, aird l}aru uuti~ished. ai~d 1eaviri~' iririawed 4~0 logs me;rsrrrin g 42~976 feet. The
mill being sto~~ped, I discharged the engineer, his ser~ices being 110 longer requ~red. 
4?)3
There being SOi~t ~vorl Iieeess~ry in order to niake 1)1  iii ililings habitable (Inring the
~~iiiter I eiii1iliiyed a e;irpeiiter teinp'irariiy to C()1Itj1II1~ tIi~ must liee~.s~try ~v~~rk
Und-t approvil of iiiv t~(~Ol~lti()11 of AIltil 1, 174 fi)t t~~ek and a,tii'iiltnr;~l ion pieinciot fi~r the i~~e if Iniliottis  ((in  to f~tiiiioi~. I Ii;~d pr iii(i~ed thii~e ~vlio ~vete most
active in the nooveinent that they sh()nl(1 have the ~vag()lil aiid oxeli iloitloig the nmoner
or fall. I had iiiade every Cfl~)tt to obtili  iieli cattle. a tlie tte.'(t-v ~ti poiloite t() ~lvC
theni. itt fititoil it ~-ery diflicolt to do. ~N~liile at Clii~yetiiii- I ~velit tit see a i()t (if cattle
t~or ~vh it~li ~It..~IcCanii hail liatgai icil.  Tlii~y lie log tiuli c:ittle a I ~vi~lii~t1 I li:itg;iineil
~~itli hi iii fot theiti agti~e1li g to give hi iii tlie voneliet fit t lie iii on (leli very at Chey
Tlie vitiocliets tt.ete itiatie oiit atiti clot to olie store-kee1i~r tit Clieyeoiiie, I thiiiki log that
tiie cit tit ~vere alteitl v there.  I oiitt i tii~il t lie I~~~ltarttoie tit if tlie ~iiireli;t~e ii 10(1 is~tie if
tlie viiiiulier~.  J,~t fiit ((lii teasi~ii ~It. ~IeC~aoioi faileil tit deliver tlie cattle. noid tioc
viitii~lii~rs ~vere ret iotooi~il to iii e.
I hail i ioteiiiied niit to p to tcli:ist any this fill. hoot tlii foitliatos CKptc~s~iI so Iliticli itisap- 0
i~ointlnelot tilid dissati~fictioii at tlii f~il tOri to get tloeiii tho~t I eiitisiileri~iI it a oii;itter
of ilioliortance tit g~~t them.  I then-fire s'~lit coot aii ageiit aiiii hoitight OXeli ~vagon~.
and Iilot(-s.  I have deli veretl to tlie I titlitins stiloic ~vtigoois, ci glit yiikc of oxen. and
t licy tire losi log them lianl iii  ~vooil titoil titles fi it fiii~l.
Sitice the loss of 27  head of cattle, Si~ptciiiher 7. I have boil  lily herili~rs searching
fir tloeioi.  They have bcen otitilile to thou any troice of tlieiii exceptilig tlie trtiils letoilioog
Ill to ~lr. Boslet's herd.  It is ditiicnlt tit prove piisitively that all th~ etittle ~vcoot into
tloe hertl.  Boot fritno the fict that no other troills cotilil he fi)totid, tilid tloc etittlit load
jost heen driven from tloe hetd a fc~v days hefitre, it is tit be itifertc~l tlotit tloi~y all ~vent
cack.
Ycry tC5~ieCtfiiily, yoior oltedictit servoitit,
J..1. SAVILLE.
lltito E. P. StolTir,                        ~~ii itt d Sic tit Itt (tic ii lgcn
Cocinoitticitet of Ititlioti iffoirs.
For Dr. Saville's I~tter Gf Nov. 1~, lS7j with refereiice to ~~~t0C~
bt~iIdiugs (1(1(1 Dr. Bevier's rej~ort. see doet~ii~eiits relative to Ai)i)leton
~oi1traeI iii npi)eiidix.
__________                                       ii
P~ED CLOUD AGENCY, NE~EAsk-A,
Iiittisd'~y, tugiost 1'~, 1S75.
Present: ffi)ll. TflOM.~s C. FLE~CflI~R, e1tttirtua~i  Prof. CTEORGE ~V.
ATIlEUTON, floti. Cll~RLEs J. FAULKNEi?, a~ii1 Hon. B. \V. ll~RP~Is.
TESTI:\IONY OF LfEUT. J. ~fcB. STE~IBEL.
By tlie CllAIRMAN:
(~i~estioji. ~Vhat is yonr r~tik iii tioc Arn~y?
Yiis'tier. Se~~itt lientieiiaiit Niiitfi Iiifaiitry, Statiolitd (it Ctltli1) I1obilison.
Q. llo~v long h~ ve yon been stationed at Ca~iip Io}ii~i.~on?
A. Since the 1~th of Jnly, 1(574.
().have yon been there genertilly all tiie tiiiie
(~.I have been there colitirinally, ~iIli tioc CXCCIititiIl of fitir days',
when I was lii) at Spottetl Totil a~eii~y.
~? Have yoil iltiol atty aeqn<.iin tatio~e, a.~.~iieitttioii`vi Itli, 1)1 other i~ieaiis
of jn&lgiii~ of the chartoeter, eai~ability, atiol eflicieticy if Agetit Stiville
as an Itidian a~~eiit other thait tite ci'.enti~sIaiices atteitilitig tlie;ittetlit)t
to) raise tlie flag-stat at tlie a~eiit.v ~
A. No.  ~ty aetito~ii1itat1ee atiol assoiititioit \ViI ii tlie lililiato agi~iit here
lias beet sitnitly tlia  I ~ot iiitrtitlneeil to) lii iii tutu have til'va~~s sl)ol~eti
to hini wiieii I lioct liiti~. I have liatl itt-i l~tirtio~nltii tissii~ititi()Ii will lii in. I
tin i'v(~i ~ ho've~ ci, ~l tite Ciio~nn~stan~es oooiiioeo~teil \viIli tioc tittetal)t
to roise tloc fitig-staft 
454
Q. Besides that eircnmshnee are there any others known to you that
would go to show his apability or efficiency
A. N\TelJ,  don't ~X etly know what scope my answer should take in.
I have seen Dr. Savill~ in contact with the Indians, and he never struck
me as a man of ally particular firniness, or a man calculated to control
the Indians, or a man c~f vim and nerve enough to c'oiitrol them.
Q. Do you know an~thingof impropflety of conduct on the part of
any of his empl~yc's about the agency ~
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever see tlie beef cattle that were delivered to the agency
last fall or winter, or this sl)ring ~
A. No, sir.  Iii the early part~of the fall I had occasion to ride over
to the beef herd; while riding in among it I spoke to tl)e persoii with
whom f was riding about the small size of the cattle.
Q. Had the cattle that you saw been turned over to the agent, or
were they yet ill the hands of the contractor?
A. That I do not know.  The nian who was the herder then is now
issue-clerk at the agency, and the cattle were intended fi~r the fiidians.
Since then I have seen Saville issue cattle, and have seen them in the
possession of the Indians, and they always seemed to me to be small.
The cattle that are issued at Army posts are about average size, but
these age ii cy-cattle are small as far as my observation goes.
Q. Have you observed other herds of cattle in this couiitry that were
neither Army nor Indian-ageiicy cattle?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know anything of tlie suffering of the Indians in this vicinity last winter?
A. There was quite a long time here in which there was 1)0 issue
of beef-cattle.  I heard that the cause of there i~ot being aiiy beef
cattle issued was in one case that a herd stampeded, and in another
case that the storiiis bad been so violent that it was impossible to drive
up beefeattle, and during this period there was quite a long time in
which the Indians got no beef, and they suffered considerably.  They
caine around our post-kitchens begging for food.  I have seen them
put their bands into the offal-sinks and take out what bad been
thrown away there-the odds and ends and scraps of food.  Friday, an
Arapaboe Indian said the Arapahoes were killing their ponies to prevent starvation; and I heard from a white man who was living with
the Arapahoes, (I don't know that he is good authority,) say that he
had two sniall children-little girls-and the only meat they had
tasted for some time was wolf-meat; that they hunted the wolves;
and that this was general throughout the band.
Q. Have you ever seen the charges made by Professor Marsh against
the management of the agency?
A. Yes, sir; I have read them.
Q. Is there any information that you can give ns to enable us to ascertain the correctness of his charges other than that you have stated?
A. He speaks, I think, about the tobacco; that the tobacco was very
poor.  I have seen the tobacco that has been issued to the Indians here
in several cases, and in my opinion it has been an exceedingly poor arti.
cle.  The Indians often try to trade it immediately after they receive it,
or to give it away.  I have had several offers of plug-tobacco as a pres.
ent.  It seemed to be very poor indeed.  Then about the flour.  I am
post-treasurer, and as post-treasurer have charge of the baking of bread,
and I know that the Indians, wheii we first came here, use~l to trade
their flour for our hard bread; so the baker would trade bread for flour. 
455
k);i olie OCed~io?1 t'ii~ b('lkQt' of one of tlie conipanies pnt ~~ little more than
olie qu;irter-I tI iii  it ~vas tli'~t lie tOl(l n~e-of Indian flonr iii tlie bUC('t(I
tli('~t lie h('~(l ~~~tke4  qii(l this l)FC('~(l li~i(1 to l)e thro~vii ft\~~('i~~  Oil (`ICCOUlit, -
i.~ tli~ l)(II~(~I ~`ii~l of tlie!~oor &1~i;ility ot tli~ Iii~liaii ilonr.  Ife is a ~O(~~1
l)Lk~i,`iii'1 f hive CvCI%V r&~~o~i to be!itve tlitt lie ~j)(Jl~e tlie truth.
by ThIr. fl~RRIS:
(). 1  tlie l~~l~er still (`it tlii  })()~~t?
~. Yt'~, ~ir'.
1))~ lie (jII;~IR~I~N
~?-  ~re there niiy other n~atter (?tii})U~QC(l iii t}ie cli'~rges about \vlii~'ll
`1 Ciii give ns aii'v int'Orii0~ti~)ii
~. I C;iii COi'UOhOr'~te sometliiii~ tli;it tlie Professor says.  lIe s<iys he
5i\V 1 g'oo~l (ledi of i)orl  tliro~vii`i\Vi~ hy the fii(l~('~iiS.  I hive seeii <`~
g~~~'~I (ICil of tlie s(iiiie tliiii~'
~?- J )iit y()n ever ex'i!iiine tlie qtta:ity of aii-v of that por~ yonnselt.?
- ~ot closely.  I \V~s riiiiiig p'tst \Vheii I sj~v them  tlii'o~v it`t\~'i~.
l~y mii'. IIAPP'~IS:
C?. J)i(i yoii o~serve tliit snfl~~ieiitly to kiio~v ~vhether tlie p~rk ~as
d'iiii;i~e(l?
~. No  I (li(1 not.  Tiie i)ork di~1 i~ot look Very ~ooi1 or nice  to me.
NN'lieii I relil tlie I~rofessoi'~s cli;~rgys, that lie ha~l seeii I)ork tliro~vii
`i\viy, I`.eincn~hcre~l then that I liad seen tlie 5'iifl~ thing-.  That is abont
all t[i<'it I wonlil say in rel'itioii to those chirges.
C?.  ~re there ai~y otl)cr iiiatters of irregnlarity or improper nianageIlielit: here tl)~t yon either ki~ow of personally, or caii refer us to persoiis ~`lio have ally persoi~al iiifo~"ination of theni?
~. I kiow of nothin~  ~)ersonally, sir.  Iii tlie n~atter of beef, I believe tli('lt (4reeii, tlie bntclier at the pos~, wonl~I give iiiforination as to
tlic size ot' tlie beef.  lIe l~as a pn~cticed eye in n~atters of that sort.
l'li(~t i  (`ill I kiio~v of.'
TESTIMONY OF- LIEUT. ~~. B. PEASf~.
by the CllAIRMAN:
C?ncstioii. ~~~lint is you rank?
Yiiswcr. iirst lientenant of the Nin~h Iiifliii~ry, stationed at Camp
It()hirisoii.
(? How long have yon been nt Cam l~ P~o1~inson?
~. I have l)CCii ttiere abont;t ye;ir-iiot quite a year-a ~`ear iicxt
(Jetoher.
(?- ~\~hen ~vas th;it cnn~i~ estnlJlislie~l?
Y. Ilie l)05t ~vns l('i~d otit`ibont kn gust, 1S~j~.
~?- have yoii ever read the Cl0'~r~es ni;ide l)y Professor ~Iarsli agaiiist
tlie n~tiin ocilielit i)f tlie`igency ~
~. I li;ive rend Ilart of tlieni.  I hive iiis I)aiiil)lilet, nn~l have looked
it tliroig'li btit i~()t very cnrefnlly.  I have l)eeii abseiit iii tlie ilack
hills,`111(1 i~iily reti~riie~l I (ily' 01- t\v() (`i~0.
- (D;iii ~N'()ii give n-s`ill.'?' iii [`~~riii<'itioii iii reg'<'ii'tl to;iiiy )f tlie iii'it ters
;ii'e ~t<'itC(1 iii iii ~` (~t' f~rofes';er ~I;ii'~li~s cli;ii'g'~'s 
456
A. As to any real information, I don'~ know thgt I can-nothing that
I could swear to, or even affirm, of my own knowli~dge.  There was one
item 1 noticed partici~larly. The tobacco is certaiul~ such as 1 would not
like to use myself.  I have seen it, and it is of a p(~or quality.
Q. Aside from any personal knowledge of your own, caii you refer us
to any persons wbo have any personal knowledge, ~nd could give us any
information in reference to any of these matters?
A. ~Yell, sir, I supi~ose the em~~loyes at the agenQv would know
about those things. ~Ir. Ecoffee, I believe, professes to have some knowledge of those things.  We have not noticed them particlarly, because
they are not under our supervision; we would if they were under our
supervision.
Q. I understand you to say that of your own knowledge you are not
able to tell us of ai)y irregularities or mismanagement of affairs at the
agenQv~
A. Xe, sir.
Q. Do you know aiiything in reference to the number of Indians at
this agency in October and November last ~
A. No, sir; I do not know. The reports about the number of Indians
are so very conflicting that it is impossible to tell except i~y actual count
bow many are about the agency or in the vicinity.
Q. Were you able in any manner tb form an estimate of the number that were camped in this vicinity, and that drew rations and supplies from this agency?
A. Nothing at all that would be reliable; there might be many encamped in the vicinity which we could not know anything about, or
there might not be. In making an estimate of the Indians I should
go out to all their camps, and make an actual count; that is the only
way it could be done accurately.
Q. And that you did not do?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know whether anybody did?
A. I don't know, unless it was the employc's here.
By Mr. llARRI5:
Q. IIave you any reason to suppose or believe that the agent has
impro~~erly used any supplies that came into his hands as agent?
A. I have 1)0 reason to say that ~fr. Saville has been dishonest in the
performance of his duties here. I have 110 opportunity of knowing
anything about it or about his affairs.
Q. lias it been a matter talked about in the post?
A. No, sir; we don't talk about those things; we don't care anythiiig
about them, iii fact; it is not a subject that we would dwell upon.
Q. So lar as you know, you know iiothing of any fraud coinmitted by
him upon the Indians or the Goven~ment?
A. ~o, sir.
Q. You have not such personal acquaintance with him?
A. I hardly know him; I haven't met him or spoken to him a dozen
ti II) CS in a year.
Q. Are the relations between tlie pOst and the agency of that friendly
character which you think ought to exist between them
A. Yes, sir; I think they are. Visits are exchanged occasionally between the gentlemen at the agency ai~d the post. Mn Yates and Dr.
Saville have been there several times, but not at my own house. There
has been 1)0 ill leeling between the 1)0 st and the agency.
&)~. Is it your opinion that there should be intimate aiid friendly rela 
457
tions between the head of the post aiid the head of the agency for the
g~od of the Indians ~
A. There has been no unfriendly relations that I kiiow of.  I think
they should work in unisoii.  I think the interests of all l)arties would
be better subserved by good feeling and co-operation.  It is better on
general principles, that they should co-operate.
TESTIMONY OF DR. SPARROW A. SNOW.
By the CllAiRm.~rA~:
Question. Doct9r, you are pliysieiau at the agency, I believe?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Q. ~Yere you here last fall an&l winter?
A. Yes, sir; I came here a year ago last May.  I have been here constantly, exeel)t for about two weeks in October, when I welit to Cheyenne.
(? Can von ~~iv
ilic last      e us iliformation in regard to aiiy suffenug here diir~lothiii~ ~~~~~t~~ or early spriiig-sun'eriiig for the want of food aiid
A. I ~i)4ve iiever known theni to be sufferiiig for tlie waiit of clothing.           t
At one time I believe tlie provi~ioiis were short for a brief time, l~ut iiot
so as to cause any suffering, that I kiiow of.
Q. Did you have occasion during the winter to visit the various Indian can~ps around here?
A. Yes, sir; I was out a little in ttie winter, but not very mud~.
(?.What is the course of your practice: are you sent for by the Inliaiis as a physieian, or are you sent out by the agent to see whether
there is sickness in the caiups?
A. I ani sent for by the Indians to teiid tlien~ as I would white peol))e~go to their camps, the same as I would if I were in private practice.
Q. Are you paid by the Government or by tlie individual Indians?
A. By the Government.
Q. If the In~lians were in a state of suffering and starvatioii, (10 you
thiiik it is likely they would have sent for you as a physician?
A. They did at times when there was snfferiiig in cases of sickness.
C?. have you any recollection of being called upoii iii the winter of
1~74-'5 by any of them 0') acconiit of sufferiiig for the want of food`?
A. No, sir.
(? Or sickness induced l~y waiit of foo(1?
A. No, sir; none that I have any knowledge of whatever.
TESTI~~ONY Ol? XICfIOLAS JAN15.
By tlie CllAIP~IAN:
(?ue~tioii. ~fr. Jan is, I)lea~e ~~<`tte liow l~~iig you li;ive beci i 11101-  tlie
Iiidiaii~.
Aiiswer. I li;ive been iii the InIlilli ealilitry Si ice Novciiil~i~r 1 S4()'.  I
si)eal aiid undeistan~l tlie Sioux language have beci ac~Jii'iiIiteil ailiolig
the 11Id~('iii5 ever since I have been h~~re  lived iii lo~lges for iii ic year
havc a family of iiine childreii among the Sioux.  I was liei ~ last lall when 
the ai~nuity goods were issued.  L helped them to issue tlie goo~is, and
showed tiie goods to the Ifld~('~H5.  They called the Indiuns ifl (`~11d showed
thei~ the ~oods, und counte~! tl~irty~six or thirty~seven bales.  I n~1i not
positive whether it was thirty-six or thirty.seveu. I counted theni, but
could liot tell exactly about it now.
Q. ~Vere those goods distributed in the ~uani~er they usually distnbute
them?
A. Yes, sir.  They were distributeil that d;~v. The a~e;it Cillle(l nie
in to help hini coui~t the Iiidiaiis a~~~l witness all tlie IJi(li'tus that`vere
~etting l)lau&ets.  [ asked the f~idians how they should be issued, an~l
they sai~l they had seveuteeri bajids, I think-f doii't recollect exactly
though-and they ~`tsked that the ~oo(ls be given them accordiiig to the
bands, or the nuitibers of each band, a~id therefore we took tlie goods out
of tlie colnulissary, after the Indiaiis had see~i theni, and gave tlieni to
tlie Indians according to each bind  so nia!iy blinkets to each, aecor~ling to tlie numbers.  I asked tlie fn{lians how it was divide~l-that is
how they liked it-and they sai~l all right, just as they wished it to be
doiie, and they were satisfied.
Q. Previous to that time you liad beeii sent for to help count them?
A. Yes, sir.  Dr. Saville sent for nie, aiid lie told me he wanted me to
help iii counting the Indiaiis.  it ~a~ tlieii difficult to count them; t here
were so many ot theni from the Xorth thitt would not be counted. None
of theni were couiited, because they wanted to bring the Iiidians over
and collect them.  I asked Doctor Saville to get niy brother to assist me.
I told the Doctor what tlie Iiidians said, and the Doctor told nie to tell
them that there was aii order froni their Great Father for them to be
counted, and they could iiot get their goods until they were con n ted, and
I explained that to the Indians, aiid then we began to count them, as
they agree~l to be couiited.  The first day there were counting Doctor
Saville an~l another inan and niyself~tliree of us-iii one party; the
clerk and the interpreter were iii another party; there were three or four
parties out counting the In~Iians.  The first day Doctor Saville got tired
and said, "I would leave it to you, gentlemen, to count them," as we
bad been doing it; and we went on counting, and it took us four days to
count theni. There was an interpreter with each of the parties.  i~Ir.
Appleton was with my brother, arid ~Ir. ~Villiarn llunter was in another
party.  It would have taken three weeks fo
all.  I tliiiik there were nine thousand 1    r one party to count them
a~to~ether of the Sioux only.  The
(~~heyeiines and Arapahoes were not here and were not couiited at that
time.
By Mr FAULX~~R:
Q. llow many miles (lid you go oiit around the country I
A. I can't say, exactly; but we wer)t above to the ~Vhite River, and
kept going around to ev cry creek until we got about ten or twelve miles,
and through the Indians on all tlie creeks, by bands, and each baiid liad
th&r own place to cam~~, and ~ e h~d to go to each band; and we`vent
around uiitil we got away dowii on ~Vhite I~iver. It took us three or
four days to do it in.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. Do you know som
here last fall?    ethin~ of tlie k!10d of supplies that were issued
A. I knew tlie first supplies that were issued. They were brought up
here the satne time tlie goo~ls were brought. Tlie rrOOd5 were not
brongbt in one trip, but in different trips of the ~~g0b~5  I g()t here
about the last tinie they got goods.  I believe there were seven bales of 
4,59
blankets, and the balance was flour.  ~[r. ~IcCanu was then the contractor.  I was standing out ~here with Red Clou~~i and Blue I)og was
there too.  ~1r. ~ic(Oann stuck his ki~ife iii to each ~a~~k to sami)Ie it, aiid
they were weighed and J)llt up. aiid lie asked Re(1 (~` loud how he liked
this flour, and also asked Red Dog. aii~i ited (?loiid 5('i~d it was very
good flour, better flour than lie ha~i gotten before  aii~i I said it was
very good flour.  I had some of the flour at lay raiicli.  There were soine
ratioiis due n~e, and Dr. Savilie gave lie two sacl~s of flour.  This was
iii Noven~ber.  I don~t know the exact (late. but it was four or five days
before tlie aiinnity goods were issucil.  It was tlie flist flour that came
~l) list fall.  They commenced tlie issue fr~iiii that flour, because they
all r(~1n'irl~td that they had oliened sonie of it.  ~~iid they were wisliiiig
fi r flour, as they had beeii out for sonic tiiiie, aiid they all drew their
r~itiiiiis tlie iiext day after tlie flour got ii).  I useit tlie flour at uly
i'aiiclie, aiid there are a great niaiiy ~)asseng~~rs or trivelers there everv
d'iy, aiid they ate it and di(l tiot comi)laiii.
(?.~)o you reiiiember anything about any pork they had here
A Yes, sir I remember it, but I could not Cill it i)(~rk.  It was shoulders and "ja~~-boiies," aiid everybody knows it aiid I tol(l Dr. Saville, aiid
lie said,  I could not help it.  I have beeii working to get better, iiu~
they keep sending nie that.~'
(~.1)id he r~fiise to issue it?
A. Yes, sir  I heard him say it was a shaiiie t() issue tli('it to tlic in(linus, because it was ilot fit to iSSue.
(? ~Vhat did the Indians say or (10?
A. The Indians took the fat and left tlie leaii aiid tlie bi~iies on the
I)rairie.
~? Do you remember aiiytliiiig of liis issuilig- it afterward ii 1)011 tlie
deniaiid of tlie Indiaiis to have it`?
A. No, sir; I do not.  I don't kiiow wliy they used it, but I hearil
tiieni say there`viS SOlile pork over there, and they liad to eat it.  I
tolil them it was iiot fit to eat; that it was uotliiiig but boiies  biit they
s~iiil,  There is plenty there, aiid we have to have something to eat.~'
By Mr. FAVLKNER:
Q. ~Yhat would the Iiidians have said if he had refused to issue it?
A. I was l)reselit one day when the agent told the Iiidiaiis, "This pork
is nothing but bones. aiid you see how it is; I have to issue it to yoii,~'
and tlie Indians said, "You have to issue it, because we have nothing to
eat."  There was about one hundred barrels there.  I tolil them  they
were leaving it on the praine, and they said,  If lie don't give it to us, he
will be trading it to soniebody else;" aiiil I can bring tlie Indians wlio
said this.  "lie wants to keep it to traile it to soniebody else."  The Iiidians said this to the agent too.
By the CHAIR~tAN:
Q. Did Dr. Saville say that he would scud it back?
A. The Doctor said he could liot seiid it back, because lie would hive
to issue it to them, as they deuiaiided it.
Q. Your l'i~gC acflnaliitance anioiig tlie IIid~('iIi5 ill iii this couiitr~enat~les you to judge if' there are Indi~ins through here who have iiever
been count~d?
A. Yes, sir; I thiiik there are froiii four t() five tliiiusaiid Sioux wlio
have liever Come into tlie agelicy.
(~.S()IiiC of those I iidiaiis, lio'~'evtr I iiiiilersti~~iil you to s;iy (`L\vli~lC
ag(). 11(111 sent their fiiiiili~s iii here, 1)1' li,'iil ~,tlier~~ ise I i'~iw ii r;i ~ioiis ((111(1
goods here? 
4(30
A. Yes, sir.  I mean most of the lodges have come ill here or have
5CI0t their La iiilies.
Q. Do yoii think there are Iudi~tus up there who have never drawn
rations beret
A. Yes, sil'; there are some Indians who have never drawn rations
nor seen a w~ite man, except in war, nor have been at an agency for ten
or fifteen years.  Some of them have not been here since t!ie war with
General llar'~ey.
Q. As the game grows scarcer up in 4~eir country, and their means of
subsistence becomes less, won't they l)C likely to come down here in
greater numbers?
A. Yes, sir.  The reason they do not come down is because they are
wild Indians.  The commissioners said to them, "We want you to come
to the agency and we will give you all you want to eat."  Xow, since this
agency has been built the rations have been cut down.  These Itidiatis,
who saw that the rations were cut down, have reported it to the Northern Indiai~s, and they say, "What is tlie use of us going down there?"
This has been done since Daniels and Wham were up there.  Since Dr.
Daniels was here as agent, the rations have been cut down, and the
inforn~ation went back to them up there that the Indians here were
nearly starved; and therefore those Indians won't come in, and have not
done so.
Q. Did you see the herd of beef-cattle that was driven in here day
before yesterday?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Have you seen beefteattle that were dnven in here last fall and
spriiig?
A. I was here last fidl, and Dr. Saville gave me a beeve, and it was the
only issue I had since.  It was the first issue to the I'idians after the
count of the Indians.
Q. What kind of beef was it?
A. The one I got was a tolerably good beeve; it was not of the best
quality, but it was middling.  The herd had some few cows in it, and
there were a few steers, some from three to six and eight years old,
and I thought it was a very fair average of cattle in those days, because
they generally have good cattle here in the fall.
Q. Was that herd a fair average of Texas cattle in this c6untry?
A. I think it was as fair as I have seen in general.  It seemed equally
as good as the general average.  I saw this herd in November last.
Last winter some time about two thousand of those cattle came into my
herd, and I was about a month getting my cattle out of tlieiii.  They
were ~Ir. Bosler's cattle; and to this day I have not found iny cattle.
I had about two hundred.  They would range from twenty-five miles
below my place to thirty miles above it.  Only two weeks ago I got my
cattle back.
Q. ~~Ir. Janis, what is the disposifion of these Indians Ii crc ill regard to
engaging in far'niiig, and cattle-raising, aiid sheep-raisiiig; is there a
pretty general desire among them to do so?
A. About sheep they kiiow nothing, but about cattle, it was oily three
or four months that they have talked of raising cattle.  [ never 1iear~l
of them raising stock of ai0y kind except horses, with tlie exception of
i~ed Cloud; lie got some cattle, and put theni into my hen~. and they are
there yet.  They have been there for nearly three years-ever since Dr.
Daniels was here.  He has fourteeii or fifteen head of horses.
Q. Have you had any opportuni~v of learning the weight of cattle on
the hoof? 
4G1
A. No, sir; I have not. I am not a judge.  I never wezit to tlie herd
but once, and then only drew olte beeve.  I a~ii ~11COrPor'ttetl into the
Sioux tribe of Iiidians.  I am married to a ii ieee of i~~d Clou~l, and
am entitled to receive rations.  I have sixteen ill Ilty f~uii1y.  I w;ts incorporated into the Indian natioii prior to April, I~~S.  ~Vith fl)y father,
and mother, and children, altogether I have a family of sixteen.
By the CHAIPMAN:
Q. Your experience among the Ir1di~ijs, aiid among the Iitdian agelits,
eitables you to judge of th~ Competeltey of men to fill tite position of
In4i~n agent.  No~v, what is your ol)inio!1 in reference to Dr. Saville in
that resl)eet?
A. ~Vell, sir, as far as Dr. Saville is concerned, or any other Indian
ageut, I ~lon't know; they hive titeir orders and have to obQy them; but
I 5~t~ th:tt the Goveritmeot seiids Indian ageilts out here to attend to
the ailtirs ot the agen~v and tlie Itidiaits without sufficient l)ower.  It
ought to give liiiti more power to (10 jn~t ~vh;tt lie sees fit, but tlie majoi'ity of agents conie here with their batids tied.  The Indians bother
them ev~~i~' (lay for thiiigs they have iiot the l)0\vC~ to give them.
(? So far as you are personally coiteerneti, aiid the Indiatis you have
talk-ed with, "`li at is your Ol)inion as to Dr. Saville as a inan ~ Do you
regard hiiit as a good nian, a correct il);il), ait~l ait ho[iest man?
A. So far as I know Dr. Saville, aitd 1 have kiiowii him since IS;~9
lie was a doctor in Denver, antI was vei'y well thought of there~I think
he is a good niait, but the Inditns, find fault with hint just as they would
find fan{t with any man that would Come here, unle~s it was a man like
~Iajor Twist or ~1ajor Patrick, wlio gave them all they watt ted and
everything they wanted, a~ they had such a sn~~j)ly that they could
give the Indians everything they wanted.  The Iit(l~(ti15 talk about them
to this day with a good deal of pleasure aitd kindiiess, as they thought
they were so good.
Q. You have the good of the In~lian at heart, atid so have we. At tlie
sa tie tiiiie, we have the good of our Government to look after, arid we
want to get your ojiinion or) these subjects.
k I am the frien~l of the Indiati, aitd have been working for them
ever since I have been here, and I feel for the in. ThQV want a mm with
theni to show them how to matt;ige their afitirs  they want a [ni It to
show them how to take care of themselves.  It requires for an Ititlian
agent a tnan not only who is lton~st, but a nina of ittitid, and firiiiiiess,
aittl (lecision of character, arid iiot only tlt;it, but a ~i~it with t~ill I)0\vC~
to (10 everything.
By Mr. HARRIS:
(~.Do you tit ink Dr. Saville is a than of firmness arid streiigtlt of ch;iracter enough to be the lutlian agent here.~
A. TIte Iridita ageiits they have seiit here are sent itierely as clerks,
t() (~(.trry out tlte ortlers that ire giveit them, without arty discretioiitiry
J)O\'ers to (10 what they tltitik best.  Uiiless you hive a man here to give
tlt~~n all they want, they dt~ iiot consider liiiii iii ageiit at all, (hid they
will ~~)nil)l'iiri for orie hriiidretl years to conic. They are. wild I iidiaiis ~`et,
aii~1 \ ori must [tot consitler them civilized.
~~~ it GllAIRMAN
(~.I)t) ~~ (iii remember in Sel~teiiibtr list, <thont tlie tittie of flie issue
~f?`~()()(l5, that there`V ere some`V [It ~ {~i~tl;ern I[idi(t[i5 cttitil)cd t)ver oli
\\`ltitt l~Iver ~
~- ~~es, sir.  There were over t\~~t) ii ii 11(1 icd lodges oF th~se`vil(l Iii 
4(32
diaiis, aiid WC ha~l gre~~t 4iffiet~lty in e()nlitiIlg tbeiii.  I took p~ilis to
tind this o~t, and there were two hnndr~d fimilies
By Mr. fIARRIS:
Q. Did they go away immediately after the is~ie of the annuity-goods?
A. Yes, Sir.  They went away two or three days after tlie issue.
Q. Do you know anything of any Nort~ern Indians being camped out
beyond the Bad Lands from here about that time?
A. In November last they were here when the goods were issued, below here six or seveil miles, and then they moved out there on a little
creek.  I don't know whether it was on the other side or this si~le, but
they camped ont there just after the issue of annuity-goods.  All these
Indians who have any lodges are in the habit of moving. They move just
as soon as the grass is eaten up from around their lodges.  They sometimes stay a week, and sometimes two weeks and sometimes a month.
The main body of the wild Indians were camped within six miles of here,
on the ~Yhite Clay Creek, when the goods were issued. There were the
LTncpapas, Ogallalas, Sans Arcs, Miuneconjoux, and other tribes, mixed
up, and after the issue of annuity-goods they all moved north, and~~I
was told a portion of them were camped in the neighborhood of the Bad
Lands, and a good many of them were visiting their relatives here, but
tlie main body of them were camped up there. I think it was the second
day after the issue that they were there.
Q. liow long did they stay?
A. They must have remained for five or six days, for it was snowing,
and they could not go away.
RED CLOUD AGENCY, NEBRASKA,
Friday, Augn~t 13, 1S75.
Present: llon. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman; llon. B. N\T llARRIS,
Prof. GEORGE W. ATHERToN, and ilon. CHARLES J. FAULKNER.
TESTIMONY OF MARK GIBBONS.
By the CHATRMAN:
Question. ~Yhat is your position here?
Answer. I am clerk and book-keeper for the agent. llave been clerk
since January 1, 1S7~. James Roberts was my predecessor. I found "Receipt-Books of Supplies," " Book of Stores Received," and "Book of
~55~~~~~ when I came.
Q In the beef-account up to the 1st of January, 1S7~, it appears that
one hundred and twenty-three head of cattle more were issued than were
received up to that time; can you explain this error?
A. I cannot. I have no other means of detecting'an error except from
these books.
[Mr. Gibbons produced his books, which were examined by Mr. llarris,
who questioned him as to his system of book-keeping and his method
of keeping his accounts.]
By Mr. llARRiS:
Q. llave you had experience in weighing cattle?
A. I have weighed the cattle in the absence of Dr. S~ville, and once
or twice when he was here.  I make the entry upon the beef account
book, in one item.  I take a memorandum, on a piece of paper, of the
issue, at the scale, and then enter it in the book afterward.  We try to 
4C3                                        1
weigh all the cattle of OIL issne,;ii~~1 so~~~ti;~~s they are all ~veigheJ, and
sometimes five or six are not weighed.  1 loave iiever known,rnore than
fifteen to go unweighed.  This was in ~Iay, some time.  N\~e received six
hundred and eight head, and out of those there were fifteen we could not
weigh.  The weights shown upon oior books Si 10 ce 1 have been clerk here
are as ~C'I~ corEect as 1 could add them iip.  The weights were taken on
a piece of paper, and then entered into the book.  ~Ve doii't keep the
papers on wl~ich we make these menioranda of the weight.  They ar
bro~iglit to the office and tlie eiitries made in the books and a receipt
given to the contractor for that amount of beef; the contractor gets
duplicate receil)ts.  The weights which I took myself were taken correctly.  I was here in May, wheii, it was said, some old cattle passed
through.  There were a few yearlings in the herd.  The Indians got
soiiie of them before they were corraled; some run tliroucrh the scales
with the cattle and were weigloed.  I had tl)e herders exan~ine the herd
and count how many calves there were after the whole herd was weighed,
aiid they reported twenty, and I made a memorandum of it. The Doctor
was away, and I deducted two thousand pounds for those yearlings that
were weighed.  They would not weigh more than one hundred poun~ls
each; that was the opinion also of the herders. I asked them what they
thought those calves would weigh, and they said they presumed one
hundred poniods eaclo.
Q. In weighing those cattle you have men to drive them in and a
gate-keeper to let them out after they are weighed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it the practice to count them as they run through the scales?
A. Anything under two years is not counted.
Q. Is that the only deduction that is made, that tliQv are not counted?
A. I (1010't niiderstaiid you. They were weighed at the ti~~e they went
ill, and nfter the Doctor came we estimnted that twenty went through,:
and we deducted two thousaii~l pounds, but 110 noemorandnu~ was taken
of it. The cattle`i~~ always weighed the same as they were the other
d~iy.
Q. Are those all the books you keep, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Don't you keep a stock-account, stock 011 hand in the warehouse?
A. Yes, sir; that is all kept in these books.
(~.Can you, any day, after an issue, determine tlte stock on hand in
the warehouse?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How?
A. Bv lookii~gover the books to see wloat is issued. Tlie store-keeper,
after the 1ssue, retui'iis the amoniot issued of each article to me, and I
enter it, as an issue, on the books.
(~.Caii you tell liow many beef-cattle you have on hand by your books,
and wlio have tlie cattle?
A. Yes, sir; I can tell that without lookiiig at the book-there are
none.
Q. For instance: I find, you sny July 25, N\~. A. Paxton, 446 head;
July 15, received froni Maybry, 810 head, aiid you also bring that into
the iiext quarter; then, August 2, you received of Seth ~ia'-bry 394
cIttle, and your account shows the issue of 463 cattle.  Shoul~l not the
eli tries (`tll be there iiow?
A. I have not had time to make them up.
Q. This is a book of original entry, and wliy should oiot  hey be
there? 
464
A.I have not had time to post them up.
Q.i)o you mean to say tl~at you allow the memorandum of an issu~
of catfie like ti~at of yesterday to lay around your otfice for weeks at:~
time?
A.It don't lay around the office, but I have not had time to ente
them.
Q.These books don't balance, and I have been trying to see theni
balanced. Why can't you make them up?
A.Iwiligoand do so.
Q.I wish you would give me the original memorandum from which
you make up these accounts.  Have you blanks?
A.No, sir; I make them on blank paper.
Q.It. you issue, as you did the other day, 377 cattle, you drive off to
the corral thirty (30) and you issue the balance; do you charge the
whole number, and from day to day if yon issue a cow to a separate
Indiaii, you charge that separately?
A.I don't make separate entries of them; I keep them on separate
memoranda, and at the end of the month I eiiter them  on the book.
My duties are, attending to almost everything, besides book~keeping
I have charge of everything during the absence of the agent, and since
you gentlemen have been here I have not had an opportunity to do anything. The Doctor is employed all the time, and there are one thousand
Indians here, and a man has to stop and talk to them or U~ey will abuse
him and drive him off and say he is of no account.
Mr. HARRIS. I would like to have your books brought dow ii to this
present time, so that we could understand how you stand before we
leave.
The WITNESS. All right, sir; I will do it.
1~ED CLOUD A~ENcY, NEBRASKA,
Tuesday, An gust 17, 1875.
Present: Hon. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman; Hon. TIMOTHY 0.
HowE, Hon. CHARLES J. FAULKNER, Hon. B. W. HARRIS, and Prof.
GEORGE W. ATHERTON.
TF~STIMONY OF LOUIS RLSflAW.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. Mr. Reshaw, have you been in the vicinity of Rel Cloud
agency a good deal in the last two years?
Answer. I was here last fall.
Q.Where do yon make your home?
A.At Fort Laramie; I have been stopping here ever since last spring,
though.
Q When you were here last fall l~ad you any means of ascertaining
with any certainty the number of Indians that were camped within a
space near enough for them to draw ratiolis from this agei~cy?
A.I was here last fall when they regi~tered the Iijdians, a'~d the
agent could not register them at all. He asked me to h&p him. I went
into every lodge and counted the wotnell and chiIdiei~ there were
and some odd-I don't kiiow how ifl'~~~. Those were Sioux, and part 
465
were Cheyennes, bnt I didn't count them.  Bill Rowland, the Ch~venne
interpreter, counted them.
Q.Do you know how many Cheyennes there were?
A.I do not.
~? Do you kiiow how many Arapahoes there were?
A.No sir: I don't. I never iliquired.
Q.Do you know how many Northern Indians there were there teniporarily at that time?'
A.There were not many northern Indians there at that time, because
just before that they had the flag-staff cutting, and that stampeded all
the northerii Indians.
Q.~~ere you here at the issue of annuity-goods in November ~
A.Yes, sir.
~? Ilad you seen the issue of alinnity-goods frequently before at the
I~ed Cloud agency?
A. Yes, sii'.                                                      S
Q. N\~ere these goods issued in the manner in which goods are usually
issue~l by Indian agents?
A. Yes, sir; the same thing as they had always. The agent calls the
different bands`ind divides the goods.
Q. Do you remember how many blankets were issued on that occasioir?
A. There were iS bales of blankets issued, 50 blankets in a bale3,6()() blankets.
Q. ~Ir. Reshaw, do you know the number of bales of blankets that
were in the warehouse there?                                        C
Q. Yes, sir.
Q. How many were there there?                                      ~i)
Q. That is what there were, 18, when I interpreted to the Indians; it
only 1$ ~}ales of blankets.                                         r-t
as to the size or quality of the blankets?
A.Oli, yes, sir.
Q.Did you hear ai)y complaint at that time on tbe part of the Indians
Q.~Vh;it appeared to be their objection to them?
A.Th~v said the blaiikets were small, and the~'e wa~ not enough of
fliem, and they would not have taken the goods if I had not coaxed them
into it.
Q.Was there any comi)laint on their part about the brand being on
the bl.~nkets?
A.Yes, sir.
~~. What appeared to be their objectioii to the bn~nd?
A.That it burned a hole right through. It is a kind of poison that
burns a hole right through.
Q.But did they make any objection to the brand at the time the
blankets were issued?
A.Yes, sir; they didn't like the brand at all.  If they wore the        tI;
blankets a day or two the hole wore right through, and after that they
complained about them.
~?. Did you see any of those blankets that had holes in them where
the brand was?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.About how many (lid you se~~?
A.I have seen a good many. I have several of theni at home now,
which have not been worn, bttt which you caii stick your tiii~er in aiid
it "ill go right through. The brand had the effect of rotting the blanket,
31)1 F 
-~466
so that you could put yotir fii~ger through where tlie brai~d is. It is rotten
so that you can easily break a hole.
-~~y ~Ir. llAP~RIS:
Q. I inderstand you to ~ay you have s~~ii a good m~uy of them that
bt(l holes in them where the braid was niade
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It was COl(I weather at tlie time tl~is issue of blaiikets was nia~le?
A. Yes, sir  it was storIuiiig at the time.
(?.lind there been much eold weather before that time that you remember?
A. Yes, sir  we h ad one storm before that.
Q. lla~l tlie Iiid~aiis been suttbriiig for the want of those blankets?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.Y~~u are very certain that there were oiily 18 bales of blankets
received here ai~~l issued at that tinie?
A. Yes sir  that is all I saw.  I interprete~l to the Indians and read
the artieles out to them.  There were 3, (,0() blaiikets.
Q. Y~~u tliiiik there could not have been more than 18 bales of
blankets issue~l here at that time without you knowing it?
A. I eould not tell.  I was not here all the time.  I was camped out.
Q. ~Vas not this issue of annuity-goods all inade in one day?
A. It was ina~le in two days.
(~. ~Vei~e you there both days?
k Yes, sir.
Q. All the time of the issue?
A. Yes, sir  I l)ell)e(l to l)ut the!)) oiit, ii~ tl~e pile, myself.
Q. Did you count the nuiiiber or bales of blankets before you began
issuing them?
A. I never wei~t in the warehouse before the issuing began.
Q. ~Vhen did y()u couiit tlie bales of blankets?
A. ~Vhen they rolled them outside.
Q. Did you count the blaiikets at all while they were all in the warehouse?
A. No, sir; I didn't see them at all when they were in the warehouse.
Q. ~~ere you sta'iding inside or outside tlie warehouse?
A. I had to stand outside to show them what parties to put the pile
to.
Q. N\~ere those blankets brought outside in the bales, or were the bales
opened inside the store-house?
A. Brought them outside aiid cnt tl~em loose and divided tl~em.
Q. Did you make any memonindum at the time of the liumber of
bales?
A. No, sir.
Q. Then, in stating the number of bales to be eighteen, you depend
eiitirely i1l)on your nieniory about it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. lIave you seen any issue of beef-cattle niade here to the Itidians?
A. Yes, sir; I have seeli some.
Q. N'~hen?
A. I saw some there last fall and this spring.
Q. About what time last fall?
A. I saw them in November.
C).Did vou see those cattle weighed?
A. No, sir; I did iiot see them weighed. 
467
Q. N\~ere you out at the corral?
A. I was not at the scales  they were weighed wl~en I got there, I
~U(~55  I guess they n~ust have been, for they issu~d theiii right out.
Q. Mr. I?eshaw what kind of cattle were tho~e that were issued on
that occasion
A. They were small cattle; tlie most of them were not lit for beef.
~? Have you had experience in tlie weio'hijicr of cattle, so that yon
could give an estimate of the average weight of those Cjttle ~
A. I could not do it, because I have not been arouiid wh&~ii tite cattl~
have been weighed.
().Int have you seen other cattle weighed?
A. I have seen bg beefeattle weio'hed.
(~.~\~ell, liasyour observati~~ii om(~lig eattle beci sneli that yoti could
~t;tte soii~etliing near what ~ould be the probable average weigkt of
those cattle ~
A. It wonld be pretty bard for me to say that; I c~nld not very well`5
tell; I would have to guess at it  but they were mighty si'~all cattle.
(? And you are not suffleieiitly acquaiiited with the average weight
of such cattle as to be able to say what those would ~)rObtbly weigh~to
hazard aii oI)inion on the sut5\ect ~
A. No. sir.
~? Did you ever see a lot of seven or n~ore cattle th;tt were exaitijued
by Geiteral J))radl~y aiid (JaI)taiii ~Iix ~
A. I had just left then  they were exaniiued about the tiii)C I left.
(~. Did yoti see those cattle ~;~i}
k. I saw the same lot that were issued; and there were some lefu over,
and they were taken up to the herd.                                    4
Q. Do you know that these cattle that were exan~ined by ~enera1
Bradley, Captaiii Mix, aiid Lieutenai~t' Hay were a portion of those that
were left over from the delivery of cattle that you saw in November ~
A. They must have been some of them, because it was the same issue,
and thQv drove theta up there, attd I left then and started back to Fort
I~aiamie aiid I heard that General Bradley and Captain Mix went up
there, and Professor Marsh, I believe, was with them, and saw the same
cattle.
Q. That particular lot of some seven head, perha~~s yoii did iiot see
those~
A. No, sir; I did not see them.
(~.Did you see the cattle that were left over from the other issue?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.Then ttiey were driven to the herd?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.Did you notice those particultrlv?
A. Yes, sir.
&~. About how n~any were there. do you iccollect?
A. Yes; about enough for au~)ther issue; about ~0O head, or a little
more.
~L~ ~Vhat kind of cattle were they?
~.They were the saute as the rest of them that tli~ had issuedsin all and poor.
(? ~Vere they in goo~l order?
A.No, sir.
(~. Is it ustial for cattle in that season of tlie year to l)e 1)001 in this
seetioii of eouiitry?
A N)), sir e;ittl~ th~~t have been out aiid stol)l)ed out fl~r a while,
would be good beet.cattje. 
Q. Do you ~1~1il by that h;~t they are Te~as cattle that have been
011 the ra[)ge iii this section ~f country   ~~~oiild they be in good order~
A. Yes; but these were  (`ittiC that must have been driven right
through.
Q. That is what you tern~ through-cattle in this couiitry?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you seen other issues of cattle besides that one in November?
A. I saw them last sprirg.
Q. About what tifl)C?  Do you recollect?
A. In April; I coul~l not tell what part of Api~il.
Q. ~Yhat kiiid of cattle were those?
A. They were all cows, most of them  son~e of them  were very old
cows, and some of them were a little over a year old.
(~.~Vhat you call yearlings?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~Vere they in good order?
A. No, sir.
Q. ~Yere they very poor
A. Yes, sir  they were poor  olie of theiii fell dowii here aiid the Indians butchered him; he could not run to the tierd-could not travel to
the her4.
Q. ~~ere there any steers among that issue at all?
A. ~~ery few steers in that issue.
Q. Do you remember aiiy issue of cattle that you saw beside those
two-one ill November and one in April?
A. I never went round to the issues after that.  I was around all the
time, but I never weiit to the corrals where they issued them-yes, I
was at one issue.
Q. But I understand you saw another herd that was being driven to
the agency herd ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is the last one you speak of?'
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In that one about how many yearlings do you suppose there
~ere ~
A. I saw them weio-hincr that last lot of cattle; that was in the spring,
after I got back from \Vashington. It was in the last part of June 1
believe it was.
Q. I niean before that, before June; tlie one you saw in April?
A. I could not tell liow many there were.
(? Do you think half of them were yearlings?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you think oiie-fonrth of them were yearlings?
A. Not quite that many; but they were all sizes; two-year olds,
three-year olds
Q. Rave you been trading with the Indians some heretofore?
A. I traded during the winter.
Q. Did you ~ny beef-hides from them?
A. Yes, sir; early last spring, when I went dow ii to the Republican
with them and came back here.
Q. Did you buy the hides on the Republican or here?
A. I bought the hides here.
Q. Have you any recollection of about how many hides you bought?
A. I think it was 145; 1 think something like that.
Q. Rave you dealt a good deal in beei)hides n your life? 
469
A. No, sir; that was the fir~t time I ever bought a'iy.
Q. J)o you ren~ember about the average weight of those hi(les?
A. No, sir; I have not got tlie receipt of them yet; 1 selit them to
omaha, and have not got tlie return yet.
Q. Did you weigh them when you bought them?
A. No, sir.
(~.~Vere they green hi{ies or dry?
A. I bought them green, just as they caine off the cattle; they had not
bcen dried.
Q. How did the Indians have as many as 145 green hides at once ~
A. They issued out as high a~ 300 head at the time of that isstie,
an~l they traded Just as soon as they skinned them off; they dont dry
them at all.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
(~.Did you sell them for greci) or ~ry?
A. Dry.
Q. You dried them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever weigh any of them?
A. No, sir; I weighed one of an American steer, and it weighed 44
pounds. It was an awful big steer; netted 1,600 pounds. That was at
Fort Laramie.
Q. Those hides you bought of the Indians, were they large or small
hides?
A. They were difterent sizes; some were small, and some were pretty
good size. They are of different sizes.
Q. N\~ere there any very small ones?
k Yes, sir.
Q. About how many do you think?
A. About half were small; very small.
Q. Do you know the mode of the Indians, skinning a beeve, as to
whether he takes off the whole of the hide.
A. He takes off all except the neck from the joint of the head.
Q. Does he skin the legs as Americans do?
A. He don't skin it clean dowii, only about half way; about to the
knee-joint.
Q. Is it a pretty general custom among the Indians to take off a
lariat from the outside of a beef-hide before they sell it.~
A Some of them do. They take it around tlie leg more than from
anywhere else, aiid some of them will take half of it to make soles of
moccasins, and try to trade the other half for a whole hide.
Q. Do you know whether there had been any lariat or soles taken
off from those hides you bou~ht ~
A. The ones I bought had half of their legs off-the way they skin
theiti.
Q. Do you know aiiything, Mr. P~eshaw, of any stampedes of the Indiaii cattle here?
A. I heard of one.
~~. Do you know anything abour it of your own l)ersoiial kiiowledgc
A. ~Vell, the Boslers' herder tol~l ne lie wanted to sell tie some of
tlie cattle.  I don't know liis nanie.
~? How did he coil0e to tell you that
A. He drove the cattle here, anil I liad uly team  oil tlie i'~iad fleightii
~? ~~tit where did you see hill)? 
470
A.On the Platte where the herd ~~~5.
Q.Were the stampeded cattle then ~n the herd?
A.Yes, sir; they had been brought here and stampeded and were
back iii the hefd then; and this herdtr told me they were there, and
oflered to sell me so~~e.
Q.J)o you know anything about how many cattle were stampeded?
A.No, sir.  I didn't ask how many, but he told me he would pick me
out two yoke of steers.  lie told me they were cattle which had been
received and stam~eded back to the herd.
Q.Do you know whether the agent here ever got those cattle back
or not?
A.No, sir; I do not.
Q.Is that the only stampede you know about?
A.That is all I know about.
Q.Do yoii know whether those stampeded cattle were afterward driven
back here to the agency?
A.I don't. know.  Tiiey were back in the herd, and must have been
driven back here again.
Q.Do you know, if they were driven back again, whether the agent
receipted for them a second time?
A.Of course, if nobody told him about it he would receive them a
a second time..
Q.Do you know whether he (lid or not?
A.No, sir; I do not.
Q.Did you see rations that were being issued to the Indians last November?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Did you see the flour?
A.Yes, sir.
(~. N\~.?hat kind of flour was it?
A.Well, there was some good flour among it, and some flour they
could not use.
Q.Did you examine a good deal of it-a good many sacks?
A.I drew some here and got some ft'oin the Indians; but the most of
it I bad to feed the cows with; I could not use it.
Q.What is the reason you could not use it-was it spoiled?
A.Yes, sir; it made awful black bread; you could not raise it at all.
Q.Was it otherwise damaged so that it was unwholesome or bad
food?
A.Its natural look was black; it looked black.
Q.Did you ever use any of it at all?
A.I tried to cook it, but could not do it; as soon as you would cook
it, it w~ild not raise at all; it would be the same as when you put it in;
it would be black as could be, and you leave it out in the cold a little
wl~ile it would be just as hard as hard-tack.
Q.Did it taste bad, or smell bad?
A.It smelled bad, but it did not have any taste at d'll.
Q.Did it smell bad before it was cooked?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.N\Tell, if it smelled bad before it was cooked, how did you come to
cook it?
A.It was the women who cooked it trying every sack; what was bad
we fed to the cows, an~l what was good we kept for ourselves.
(~. Could not you tell what was good aiid what was ba~l by looking
at it, without having to cook it? 
471
A.Yes, sir; but I was not at home all the time.  I was all the tiwe
ruiiniu~ round.
(~. Did you see the coffee that they were issuing at that tiiue?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.~Vhtt kind of coffee was that?
A.There was a ~ood deitl of black coffee in it-these black grailis;
pretty nearly half of it was bl;~ck.
t?- 1)i(l you draw some of it
A.Yes, sir.
(~. J)id you use it?
A.Yes, sir: but I took the black grains out.
~? Di(t it make good coff~e ~
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Did you get any of the sugar?
A.Ycs sir.
Q.~Vhat kind of su~ar was it?
A.It was this A yellow 5~~i~  it was right yellow sugar.
Q.~Vas it good ~
A.Yes, sir; the sugar was ~ood enough, but it had an awful smell
when you opened the l~arrel; it smelled awflil.
Q.Did it smell bad?
A.Yes, sir.
(~. Did it taste bad?
A.No, sir.
(?- ~~as there any dirt iii it?
A.No, sir; there was no dirt in it; it was clear sugar.                    -
(?- Did you ever examine auy of the tobacco they were issuing at that
time?
IL
A.   ~~~s,sh'; I have seen it.                                          1=
Q.  ~Vhat kiiid of tobacco was that?
A.   It was this plug-tobacco; there was more iuolasses in it than any- a
thing else.  I know when you put it out iii the sun and tried to dry it
it would be worse-it gets more danil); when you put it close to the fir~
or iii the sun to dry a plug it would swell up so thick (~Iid~C~t\Ii~~ab~O~i;
four   ii~ches.) They hardly ever use the tobacco; they throw it
it t~uriis their tongues to smoke it.
Q.   Do you know aiiything of the suffering atnong the Indians last
wiliter and spring for the want of food aiid clothing?
A.   Yes, sir; last spring when I got back here.
~?-  ~Vere they sufferiiig for somethiiig to eat?
A.   Yes, sir.
(~.  J)id the agent have no rations to give them?
A. No, sir; 1) e did liot h:ive ally.
Q.   No beef?
A.   No. sir.
Q.   ~r flour?
A. No flour: sometimes oiily flour straight would coilie; I mean a
wagoii-load exclusivelv of tIour.
(~.  Do you kiiow the extent uf their suffering?  ~Yill you describe it
to us iii some way so that we would uuderstaiid what tile extent of their
starvatioii was?
k   ~Vlien I got here, in April, they did not have aiiy beef, aiiy sugar,
or coffee: all they lia~l w~s ~)ork-stiaiglit l)ork.
~?- Now, do you kiiow how bug they h(Ld bceu out of tlics~ things
wneii you caiiie back?
A. I could uct t~ll; only I heard, when I caine to Sidiicy. tl at they 
472
~~ere out  that was iii the first I)art of?\Iar~h.  I had b~en down ol tlie
i~~i)nblican with the Indians.
~t~ Do you know how long tl~ey continued out of those thiiigs a{~er
you ~~i~~ back ~
A. It "~as a n~ontl~. It was a moi~th l~efore they ot <`~10y issue of b~~ef.
There was )ne whole month after I got back here that they did not ~et
any beef.
(~.Do you know anything of the reason why they (lid not get`L~~
beef?
A. No sir; I do not.
Q. Did you ever see the samples of supplies that were given to Professor ~Iarsh by Red Cloud?
A. No, sir  I did not see them; that was done after I left.
Q. Did you sign, in ~Vashington, on the 4th of June last, a statemeiit
in writing that you were present at the whole issue of annuity-goods
`ind saw all the annuity-goods delivered, and that there were only
ciobteen bales of blankets?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I understand you to say now that that is the truth?
A. Yes, sir; iS bales of blankets: that is, 3,600 blankets.
~Q. I ni~(ierstand you to say now that that is a fact; that there were
only IS bales issued?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You don't think there could have been any more issued without
your knowing it?
A. I could not tell.  I lived away about a mile.  I didn't come here
until al~ont eight or nine &clock.
(? Might there have been twice as in any blankets, and you not know
it?           0
Y Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know Little ~~ound?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether Little N\~ound examined the blankets any or
not ~
A. I dont kiiow; the ageilt wanted to take l~im in, but they refi~sed
to go in.
Q. ~Vhorefused?
A. Red Cloud and Little Wound reflised to go iii and see.
Q. Th~v did not go into the warehouse?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know who rolled the bales of blaiikets out of the warehouse when they were issued?
A. A good ~nany nieii were rollii~g them out.
Q. You don't know who tli~y were?
A. No, sir.
(? Did you state ill Washington on tlie jtli of June. 1575, that of tlie
cattle issued here in May, 1575, more th~in oue-thir~l of them were ye;irlings ~
A. That is the one I jnst now tol(l you of; that was in M-~y.
Q. Did you stare then that more than one third of them were yearlings?
A. I stated just wl~at I sai~l-i~ot that there was one-fourth yearliiigs
they were two-year-ol~~s an~1 tliree-year-ol~ls.
().You did not say in \N~asliiiigtou that there was i0i~)re th;iii oiie-third
&)f them ye~irling5?
A. No, ~ir, I (lid not. 
473
Q. Did you say in Wa~hington, at the same time, that tlie nnrnber of
hides you had bonght was 6f)?
A. Yes sir  I had only bonght that ii~nch at that time.
Q. llave you since bought the remainder of 145
A. Yes, sir.
~~. Did vou si~n a certificate In N\~a~hiiigtoii, on tile Stlj of 41111 C 1S75,
statin~  that iii the summer of 1S74 tlie herd of cattle at tlie led Cloud
agelicy which had beeii received by the ageilt from  tlie coiitractor,
stampede~l, aiid most of theni, over 1()() iii nuniber, weiit back to tlie
contractor~s herd on the Platte
A. Yes, ~ir.
Q. You signed that certificate, thit there were more than 100
A. Yes, sir.
(~.liow did you know that there were over a hundred?
A. That is what the herder told me.
~? Did yon kiiow anything at all except what the herder told voli
A. That is all.
Q. ifow could you state that it was so in your certificate?
A. That is the way I told him, and he wrote it down, and he has got
It diffcreiit now.  I told him just as [ have told you.
Q. Did you say there that these same cattle were`Lfterward driveii to
the agency and were receipted for a second time by tlie agent?  Yonr
certificate says that you stated that of your own knowledge.
A. No, sir; I stated it just the way I told you.  I did not kiiow
whether they were driven hack or not.  All I know is from the herder,
and he (Professor Marsh) wrote it down the same way; and that is the
reason I signed it.
Q. Did you tell him to write thi~ down: "These same cattle were
afterwards driven to tlie agency, and were receipted for a second time
by the agent."
A. No, sir.
Q. N\~ho wrote this thing down for you in N\~ashiiigton?
A. ~[r. Marsh.
Q. Is that Professor ~Iarsh, wlio was ont here hnnting bones!
A. Yes, sir.  I didn't tell itim to write it down, anything of the kind.
He kept after me asking ine qnestions about it.
~?. After he had written it down, (lid you read it over?
A. No, sir: he read it to me, and just the way I told liiiii.
11,
Q. Then you had not told him  that y~)u knew tlieie weie over OilC
hnndrcd cattle that stampeded back to tlie coiitractor~s herd?
A. No, sir.
~t~ You did not tell hiin yon knew tllese cattle had b~~en dri~eii l~ack -~
to the agency anti receii)ted for a &~ec{)Ild tiiiie?
A. No, sir.
By Mr. HARRIS:
(~.Did you tell him that anvl~~dv t(lld you ~u
A. No, sir.
~? Are you a married man?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.Are you married to a meml~er of tlie tribe?
A. Ye~.
(~.Have you children?
A. Yes. ~ir.
`? 1)o yoii draw rations fiom the ~~(~l0Cy
A. Yes sir.
`1 
474
Q. For how many persons?
~. Nine.
() You are a h'~lf-brCed?
Yes, sir.
(~.Son of a Sioux moth~r?
A~. Yes.
&~~~ And have alw~ys li~~ed here
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At whose request did you inake a staturneiLt coilceining the nun~ber of l~lankets
A. lie asked me about it when I was in ~Vashington-Professor
Marsh.
Q. lIad you been at work about the agency before that time?
A. No, sir: I had just come in, and the Doctor asked lue to use my influence to count the Indians.
Q. You had been discharged froin that service oil tlie 13th of September-the day before the issue?
A. I was discharged after the issue.
Q. Do you remember particularly about that?
A. I could not remember what time it was.
Q. ~Vill you say now that you had not been discharged on the 13th,
the day before the issue?
A. I was paid off at tlie issne.
Q. ~Vere you not discharged on the ~3th and paid off at the end of
the month?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Now, were you at work for the ageilt on the day of the issue ~
k Yes, sir; before the issue.
(? I mean on the day the goods were being issned?
A. Yes, sir.
(? ~Vhat were you doing?
A. I was interpreting, standing out at the pile.
(~.~Vhere was the agelit at that tiiue?
A. lie was standing outside reading over the list of goods for each
In~lian.
Q. NVhat tribe or what chief di(1 you interpret to?
A. To lted (?loud aiid Little ~\~ouiid, aiid all these Sioux here.
(? Now, do you know how m~ny blaiikets I~~ed Cloud liad for liis
~~and?
A. NVell,sir, I could not tell tlie bales were cut open and divided
out; the agent t~r his meii c~it tlie bales.
(;). Ilow in any bales did 1~etl Cloud have for his baud?
A. lie did not have any whole bale.
~L~ Did any Iiidian have a whole bale
A. No, sir.
(~.Do you know liow many of those eighteen bales belonged to the
Sioux?
A. They all belonged to the Sioux.
(~.The Arapahoes anti Cheycunes did not ii ave any?
A. No, sir; theuc were no ~oo(ls for th~~m.
(~.~N~hat time in the iiIoriiing did you get here
A. On tlie first day ot the issue
Q. ~es?
A. Just before they coi~in~ei~ee~1 to i~siie l~ee'au~e we ~~~~ul~I iiot get
the Iii~liaiis to si~ii ttie l)apers for a loii g tiiiie ~~iid ~e (ijd nt)~ st;~rt
niitil 1~ o~clock, I gue~s: tlie`j~eUt was iight by ine. 
475
Q. Did any Indian ask you to count them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~Vho~
4 Red Cloud and I~ittle NVound.
Q. Did you tell them
A. Yes.
Q. On that day?
A. Yes.     -
~?  At that time
A. Yes, sir.
(~.That there were 3,600 blankets?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you say 3,~()0 blankets were co~nted out to the Indians?
A. That is all there was.
Q. ~Vhicli did you take the mo~t pailis to do-to count the blankets
as they came out of the bales, or the b'~les themselves?
A. I counted just the bales.
Q. You say there may have been blankets i~sned which you did not
see. Explain to the commission how that coul(! be.
A. That I could not tell; there may have been some more issued,
but I don~t know anything about it; and I could not tell next morning;
I was here late. It storuied all the first day; and the secoiid day I got
here about 10 &clock. They were not issuiiig blaiikets on the second
day; they issued a)! the blankets I saw, on the first day.
Q. I ask you whether you know that no blankets were issued on the
second day?
A. ~o, sir.
(? And yet you were not here?
A. In the mornincr
Q. I ask you whether you say to this commission that 110 blankets
could have been issued which you di(1 not see?
A. If there were any blankets issued that morning, I woul~l see it,
because when I came there was only a few boxes of axes at the pile.
They would have been in the pile, and I would have seeti them.
Q. ~Vhom (lid you first tell the number of bales you saw?
A. P~ed Cloud.
Q. V~~hom next?
A. I don~t remember any hotly else.
(? ~Tntil when?
k LTiitil I went to N\~ashington, and ~Ir. ~Iarsh got after me.
Q. Didn't he tell you l~e thought there w(~re twenty-five bale~
A. I doii't know whether he asketi`ne thit or liot.
Q. You then, for the fir~t time, told lii iii that there were only eighteen
bales?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.~Vhat white man did you first tell that there were only eighteen
bales?
A. I doii't thiiik I spoke to aiiy one ibont it.
(~.Do you know how many hales ought to come to these Indiaiis?
A. No, sir.
Q. I)o you kiiow how many pairs of blankets these people ought to
have?
A. I kiiow they used to have double that amount of them.
~?. IIo~~ many (lid they ever hive`it any oiie tiiiie
A. I li;~ve seen as high as forty bales.
~?. lIo~- rII;tIiy blaiikets would you ct!! that 
476
A. Ti~ere ~ould be fifty pails iI~ a bale.
~t~ flo\v nI~ny Indiai~s were there here to receive bl(~iikCt~ do you
thi~ik, last November
A. Just what I registered al~ont 9,000 an~l over.
Q. N\That part of the peot)le ~ot blankets
A. There was Red Leal) of;he N\tashashaws.  lie ha~l tlie biggest
band. The Indians borrowed wagons aiid caiiie l~ere with tlie ~i~O~5
<I Ii (1 loaded them up an~I took tiiem to their ca~np.
Q. Did you ever see the bl~tnkets there as they were rolled out
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you notice the stan~p on these blaiikets, as they were being
distributed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. DitI you see then, that the stamp was bad? Did you see ai~y holes
in the blankets ~
A. Not at that time.  It didn~t hurt the red blankets.  There were
red and black and white and green blankets. The black ones were the
only oi~es I saw injured.
Q. Now after the issue on the 14th or 15th, or either of those days,
did you go into the warehouse?
A. I weiit in on the second day.
Q. You did not go in before the issue commenced?
A. No, sir.
Q. You~don't know anything about how many bales of blankets were
in the building?
A. No, sir. On the second day after the issue I went in again, and I
saw no blankets there.
Q. Did you ever see any blankets of that kind after that time in the
possession of Dr. Saville ~
A. No, sir.
Q. Or any one of his emp]oye's?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever see any blankets that ~ ou had reason to suppose were
delivered to him by other persons~
A. No, sir.
Q. l~ave you any reason to suppose he issued all tlie blankets he received?
A. I think he did.
(~.Have you aily reason to sui~pose that aiiy blankets he received
were not delivered to tlie Indians.'~
A. If he did I did not see it.
Q. Have you ally reason to itelieve that there were ally blankets which
came to him that he did not deliver to the Indians ~
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever l~ad any trouble with the agent
A. No; only once, here, at tlie time I hel1ted hin~ to register the Iiidians.
(~.\~~hat trouble did you have with tite agent at that time?
A. He asked me to use n~y infl'~ieuce to get tile Iiitliaiis to consent to
be regi~tered, and he promised to give me a liceiise to go ai~d tr~ide with
the Indians.
Q. NVhat sort of trade did he mean?
A. To buy their robes when they went out on a buffalo-hiln~.  After
I got the Indians registered he waiited me to t('ikC in ~Ir. Brown and
~[r. Appleton, and I wouldn~t {~o it, and lie would not give lile the license.
He tht~n brought ill George Breckenridge, the corral boss at Fort Lara 
477
i~~.  ~Ir. Brown and ~Ir. Breckenridge came in while I was waiting for
he license, and wanted him to give theii~ a license to trade.  I spoke to
im about it.  I told him I was waitiiig for the licejise he promised me,
-nd he said to me that Brown and Apl)letou had told him [ did not want
ny licelise; that L was goii)g on my own hook anyhow.  I told him I
`ever said any snch thing to either one of them.  That is all I said to
im, and he told me to go ahead and trade without a license, and so he
old Brec Len ridge.  Brown got in with Breckenridge.
Q.   Did you go ~
A.   Yes, sir.
Q.   Did Breckenridge go ~
A.   No sir.
~~ Did you have a trade upon that hunt`?
A.   Yes, sir.  The Indians were starving out there, and did not have
ny buffjloes all that winter.  They did not get but 10~.
(?.  N\~as that the only difficulty you had with Dr. Saville?
A.   That is all.
~? Did he refuse to give a license to anybody ~
A.   I don't know, sir.
Q.   That is the only difflcu!ty you have bad with him ~
A.   That is all.
Q.   ~Vas that about the time of this issue in November ~.
A.   Yes, sir; that was after the issue.
Q.   liad Dr. Saville promised to give you a written license?
A.   Yes, sir.
Q.   N\~here was that promise made?
A.   P~ight here in the office.
(~.  ~vh0 was present?
A.   Me and bim was all alone; there was no other person present.
Q.   Did he and you talk about it together afterward ~
A.   Yes, sir; he even offered me to be sheriff here to catch the Indi.
`5' stolen stock.
Q. 1)id he and you talk about the liceiise afterward ~
A. Not until after I registered the Indians and the goods were issued.
Q. Did you before the time of ~~hich you speaL, when brown and
eckenridge came in?
A. Before the goods were issued Brown caine aiid asked me if I was
ing triding; that he heard the Doctor had offered to let me trade.  I
!d him ves  and Brown says, "I am sub-agent, the pkiy is mighty
all, aiid~I would like to get in with you;" and he said he would help
to get all of tile other trade. anti stop all the other l)eo1)le from trad  % if I went in with him.
4  ~~. Did you refuse that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you talk to any other person C~CC1)t Dr. Saville and ~Ir.Brown
~ut that?
A. That is all.
~. No other J)emson?
~. No other l)erson.  After that it was all Over.  The chief clerk
~rd it, and he made it Odt; and the officers asked me about it, and I
d them.
). ~Vere you the only person that went from here?
`-`. Ye~, sir.
?. iltve you seen the cattle that have been issued during this month
the agtIi&y`.) 
478
A. No, sir. I just got back yesterday.
Q. lIow much do you suppose the largest cattle which came here in
November would weigh?
A. In November they bad nice cattle; good beef-cattle.
Q. At the tiu~ Professor Marsh was here?
A. No; before that; the first of the issue. The last part, the time
~Iarsh was here1 they were pretty poor cattle.
Q. How much' would they weigh?
A. Not very much.
Q. Have you ever bad any experience that would enable yoii tojudge
of the weight of cattle?
A. It is pretty hard for me to tell. I have never dealt in cattle, or
weighed beef after it was slaughtered.
Q. Canyonread?
A. Yes1 sir.
Q. And write?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But have had no experience in weighing cattle, or judging of the
weight of cattle?
A. No, sir.
Q. Can you give any opinion as to what those cattle issued in November would average on the hoof?
A. I do not think they would average over seven or eight hundred
pounds on the boof.
Q. You speak of the sugar as being very bad.  It was dark-brown
sugar-yellow sugar?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Rather moist ~
A. Very wet; kind of damp.
Q. You say it smelled bad?
A. It smelled as soon as you opened the barrel.
Q. N\That did it smell like?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. It did not taste bad?
A. No.
Q. And it was clean?
A. Yes.
Q. Bow does that sugar look compared with the sugar you had at tha
time? [Sample of sugar shown.]
A. That is pretty near the same kind.
Q. Does this smell as that did?
A. No, sir.
Q. Does it not smell as strong?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did that smell as if it was foul or dirty, or did it smell strong 0
molasses?
A. Stroug of molasses. The sugar they are having now is all righ
That sugar was only dark and smelled strong of molasses.  That i
what I mean when I say it smelled strong and bad.
Q. Do you think it was wholesome-fit sugar to eat?
A. The sugar was good enough to use in co~ee, only when you opene
the btrrel it had a strong smell.
Q. You had never seeu anything like it before since you have bee
here?
A. No, sir. 
479
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. ~Vith regard to the COUI)t of the Ii~diaiis, did the Iiidiaiis seriou~ly
o~jeet to being counted`.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. For what reasoii, as yon uiiderstood?
A. They were`~traid they would get rations just tlie same as troops
every faniily draw separately for itself.  That is what they were atraid
of; that is, draw by iau~ilies instead of by bands.
(~ ~~as there any other objection ~
A. That is all the objection I heard.
~? Did they make or threateii any serious resistance to the countilig q
A. They said the agent told them thit if they would not be registered
be could not issue the goods or tlie ratioiis to them.  i~ed Cloud aiiswered him to take his goods and rations back where fie'got them; that
lie did not want to be counted.
Q. Did you consider that there was actual danger connected with the
attempt to (~ount them?
A. ~Vell, yes; there was a little.
Q. J)id your count of nine thousand and upward i;idud~ all of
them?
A. ~~s, sir.
Q. You have stated already that it (li(l not i;)clude any of the Chey.
elines and Arai)ahoes.  Did it include any of the northern tiidiaiis'.
A. No, sir; there were very few of theni here.  The last day of the
counting I wo'~ld not let tlie agent come around with us, because they
had threatened him down here at one village; and I took his chief clerk
aiid several other men down to register tlie Iiidiaiis.
Q. Did this count take place before or alter the affair of the flag.
staff.
k After.
Q. And you sai~l before, as I understood you, that it was for that
reason there was so few northern Indians encamped here; that they
had gone off?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. liow many of the northern Indians had been here, according to
your best information, at any one time?
A. I think there were over two thousand went back at that time.
Q. Before any of theni went back ~
A. Last summer, at the issue previous to the count, there was Ilie
largest number that was here at aiiy one time.  They were coming in
daily in considerable liunibers until the afl"iir of the flag-staff.
Q. Do you remember when the ditliculty about the flag-staff occurred ~
A. Yes; I was here.
(~.~Vhat tinie was it-what l)art of the mouth?
A. I could liot tell you.  I do liot remember the day of the mouth.
~? lii ~h(~t month, (10 you remember?
A. A little betore they wei'e registei'ed.
~t~ I)o you remember what iiioiith it was in?
~. The issue was iii Noveniber.
~? flow SOOli after the dithculty about the ilag-staff did the Iiidians
h~~iii to leave?
A. They left that sanie d;iy aiid all that iiiglit.
~? flow niany do you esti~nate rem~iiiied?
A. It is pretty hard to tell.  They went iii to lifferent baiids.
(~.So thtt it was not possible to estiui;ite their 1)recise iiumber I 
480
A. Yes sir.
~? Those that reii~aii~~d in camp by thern~elves, where were they en           C('LI1)l)C(l
A. They were scattered an~ong their relatiolls.  Son~e who had re           11atioHs here went to theiji aiid joiiie~l their baii~ls.
(~.For how bug a tinle do you think that process of distribution was
going on
A. That day and night.  After next morning the excitement ~1nieted
down, and they stol)I)e(l ~oing.
Q. Did any of tho~e wiio went away north return to their old en           campments`is far a~ you know ~
A. No sii'; I do no~ know.  I left then, and did not get back here till
~I~ril.
Q. Do you know whether those who were scattered amoi)g the various
haiids afterward went out and eiicamped by theuiselves ~
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Did you go north with Professor ~Iarsh ~
k No, sir; I did lli)t.
(~.In wbat direction did these northern Indians go   ~Vhere were
they sii1~posed to go ~
A. Their route is right straight through the Black Hills; just a little
west of the Black Bills.
(?.Did they remain in the Black Hills ~
A. No, sir; they went np the Tongue River to the Yellowstone.
Q. Do you know where Professor Marsh went ~.
A. No, sir; I do not know what place he went to.
Q. Do you say that the return you maile of nii~e thonsaiid and up           ward was a correct count of the Indians who were here at ~hat time,
- -        except the Cheycunes and Ara~)ahoes ~
A.  Yes, sir.
By Mr. BARRiS:
Q.  Now, can you give ns an opinion as to how many Cheyennes and
Arapalioes there were here at that ti'iie that you did not count ~
A.  No, sir; I have never went around to their villages,and could
~ot say.
Q.  Ilow do you come to state that thii'ty-six hundred blankets were
-i~~ued   ~\~here did you get that information ~
A.  I got that from the Doctor.  lie got a paper and read it out, and
tOl(l Ilie there were thirty-six hundred blaiikets.
Q.  Are you sure that he (lid not say there were thirty-six ba0es~
-A. I ain~t sure of that. Be may have said there were thirty-six bales,
not thirty-six hundred blankets, and I niny have misunderstood him.
(). You say there were ei~hteen bales, aiid fifty pairs in a bale.  That
would figure up eighteei~ hni~dred blaiikets.  You say you may have
misunderstood him; that he may have said thirty-six bales iiistead of
the Doctor said anythii~g about thirty-six hundred blankets?
-~thirty-six huiidre~l blankets.  Now, in view of all this, are you sure that
A. I may have misunileistood him.
Q. You are aware that there would be thirty-six hundred blankets in
thirty-six bales, are you not?
A. Yes, sir; now.
-Q.Having that fact in ~iew, are you sure that the Doctor told you
there were thirty-six bales, or that l~e tt)ld you there were thirty-six
hundred blankets -?  Are yon snre which it was that he told you? 
4S1
A. I could not tell yoll which he tOl(1 me, but he told inc thirty-si&huiidred.  I thii)k that is what be told me.
Q. ~Vhcii you ma~le your stateineiit to i~rofes~or?\f<'ir~h, were you relyiiig more npon your own count or til)Oll what tlie I)octor told you?
A. All I couiited was the bales of l~laukets when they were rolled out,
an~l I weut bLek t() get Red Clond to sign the reeeil)t.  The J)octor a~ked
inc to go and get hi~n to sign it; and he ha~1 tlie other interpreter, Billy,
to sho\V tlieiii the piles, and when I went iii to get Red Cloud to sign I h(Ld
oiily ~et~ii eighteeii bales.  That is, eigliteei~ bales liad been rolled out
wheii I was asked by tlie 1~oetor to gj aiid get Red Cloud to sigh.  Ati(1
tli('it is al I saw; aiid when I came back they began to cut open the
bales.
Q. Btit you got the figures thirty-six huiidred from the Doctoi"s stateniclit`?
A. Yes; or tlie thirty-six bales whichever it was.
(. I uiidei'stood you to ~ay you told Red Clou~t that there were only
ei~liteen bales of blaiikets rolled otit at that tiiiie.
A. That is all I saw before I went to I~ed Cloud to have hiiu sign
tlie re('eilit for the goods.
Q. ~\~here was Re~l Cloud?
A. Be was here in this coriier rooiii; t)ilt I liad iiot goiie in the warehouse theti.                                                              1;.    By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Had you reas~~n to suppose that Red Cloud received informatioti          -
as to the iitiinber of bales of blankets from aiiy one except ~ourself           -
That is, (lid he rely on your count?
A. I do not know.  lied Cloud and Little ~~ound asked me to count
tlie bales that werG rolled out, atid wheii eighteen bales had been rolled
out J)r. Saville asked nie to go atid call Red Cloud to have him sigit -
tlie receil-it.  All the chiefs had signed except hini.  ~Vhen I came back
I did not connt them again.  They were cutting the bales and issuing
the l~lankets out.  I could not cunut theni then.  There were eighteen
bands of Itidians to whom goods were then beiiig issued.                      -
By the CHAIRMAN:
(~. Do you know whether any one of those bands received as
much as a whole bale of blatikets without beitig opetied ~
A. None of them had a whole bale.  There wete different colors of
blankets, aitd they all got some of each kind.
By Mr. ATllERTON:
Q. Did you tell Red Cloud the nun~ber of bales bei~~re or after they
began opening them ~
A. I tol(l him after the bales were opened.
Q. ~Vas there any chance for any further couiit of the bales theti,
after you had told Red Cloud?                                          — s'
A. No, sir.  There are more Siou~~ Itidiatis iti the North wlio never
have come here than there are at the agency.
[a
TEST] MONY OF WILLIAM II. BROWN.
I was last year appointed by Dr. Saville as sub-a~ent to go (lowii with
the Iiidiaiis on tlieii hunting expedition on the 1~epublic;iit Fork.  It
was, I believe, with the approval of tlie Departuietit.  I (lid tiot at any
tinie say t() Louis R~ shaw that the sal;iry of sub-agent was stuall and
t;1 1 F 
4S~
that I wanted an interest in hi~ trade.  I liad eoii~id~red tiie ~nestion
whether I would g) tlitre as trad&r.  Two or three uioiitlis prior to ac~eptiiig the appoilli ment of snb-a~~iit Dr. Saville had oil~red me ati appointmeiit as trade`.  1 askeil wli~~ther tiie tr~tder COfli(1 have an cxciiisive right to trade and lie said lie tlionght not. I-Ic s('t~d there were partics already settled there, ai~d he did not thitik they C0tt1(I be cxcltt~ied
from trading with tlie Iiidi;ins.  11e seemed to donbt whether he had
<-inthority to graiit a licetise to trade oil froni the reservation.  ~Ir.
~rcckcnridgc came over ft~~m Fort Larainic with Professor ~1arsh about
the tiii0C I did  atid after he fonii~1 ont that I was going Sonth he canic
to inc and asked ine if I had any objectioti to his going Sontli as trader
if I went as snb.agent.  I told hini that I shonld be glad to have
hiiii along.  He wanted to know whether it would be necessary to
~i'i~~0 a li~ei~~e. an~1 I told hin~ to go aiid see Dr. Saville.  On second
cotisideratioli I tOl(I him I (li(I not think it would be necessary for
hi iii to hive a liceiise, l)tit to go (`tii(~ ask I)r. Saville liis opiiiion iii
regard t() it.  He atterwirilS C;iiiic back with Louis Hesliaw, aiid each
" (`1 ii ted to go as trailer.  I told them  that I did iiot think it would be
worth their while to get a lieeiisc, btit tolil them both to go to Dr. Saville
<`tad a~k liiiii al)oii~it. They went to Dr. Saville, aitil lie in my presence told them  that he did i00t tliiiik it would be of any advantage
to theiti to have a license.  The Doctor said he would be willing to
grailt either of them a license 011 tiie aiii)roval of the Department, but he
did itot think a lieeiiscil trader would have aity ailvantage over anyone
~~ithout a license.  I do iiot know that any conclusion was reached at
that time, bnt I did all I could to dissuade Breckeitridge from going, as
I ilid not see liow he could make any money.  Louis afterwards went;
but whether the Doctor told liim lie could go 011 itis own responsibility I
(10 iiot know.  On further coiisideratiou he coiiclndcd that a license
would be of no benefit, ai~d decided to do without it. I never hearil him
complain that the Doctor liad violated liis promise in not giving him a
license.  I did iiot seek or obtain in any respect whatever any advauta~e from the traile oii that exl)cditioii:
State the ficts respecting a delivery ~r about 130 bead of cattle
~ast fall.
A. NY hen we were going south iii tlie fall, the Doctor had told me to
g~ve the Itidians some beet.  ~Ir. Bosler gave me a iiote to his herders,
and they said, All right; take whatever you want.'  I took about 130
head, and distributed them to the Inilians. They made very' serious comI)laiiit because I did not give them about 200 head.  I hail no count of
tlic Inilians, but took aii estimate of tliC!)i as well as I could l~y countilig
l~~dgcs, aiid distributc(l the cattle to tite severil baiiils.  There was no
cstiiiiatc n~adc ot tlie weight ot the cattle, but I sciit tlte number to Dr.
Saville.  I forn~ed au cstiii~ate iii iny owli mind of tite weight, but made
ilo return to the I~octor. The cattle wcrc   ot good quality, atid there were
about half a dozcii calves, which we liii tot coiitit.  I gave a peiicilniemoraniluin ot tlic number ot head to tite herder, and as soon as I arI!rived at the railroad I wrote ti) I)t'. Saville a full stateincilt. They were
an average of tlic hciil. a<~ ~~  cii t ilito the herd and took out a bunch.
I passed thron~h a good l)art i~f tile herd, looking for some litiliatis, and
so saw their general size aitil COitilit ion. Iii cuttiiig out a buitch it is iiot
easy to select sizes. ati~l I aiiiteil to tike an average of- tite whole herd.
The meinoranduiti given to tlie heriler was tiot giveti iii tor m ot a voucher
The weather was extreniely cold  I entered my nieitioraiiduin iii
little book l~elongiiig to the herder. I afterward received orders from flic
igent not to deliver any niore cattle without itirther orilers from thi
office, aiid he complained that I liad given them too maiiy. 
4~3
TESTIMONY OF LIEUT. E. B. PL~)BEliTS&)N.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. What is your rank
~n~wer. Second lientenant, Ninth Iiifaiitry.
Q.llave you read Professor Marsh's charges against the 1~~~igement
of affairs at Red Cloud agency?
A.Yes, sir. 1 saw an issue of beef cattle on the 3d of August, this
year, at the issue before that of yesterday, and a portion of the cattle
were very small in proportion to the others. 1 could not say what
weight they would average.  1 doii't know abything about the weights
of cattle.  I don't think they would ~~~~`i~e as much as the cattle we
received at tlie postS. I saw the pork, tobacco, and sugar issued last fall
aiid winter. I saw the Indians throw a good deal of the pork away. I doii't
think it was very good quality; it w;is not such as I would want to eat.
The tobacco was black in appearance, and of a very poor quality.  The
sugar, at the time I ~oticed it, had a sandy ap~)eaflince, 1)flt I did not
taste or examine it very closely. In appearance it was not as good as
tlie brown sugar that is issued to tlie soldiers. A f~w days ago I noticed
the sugar that was being used, and it was of a better ~~uality than I had
seen them get last fall.
Q.flow does the sugar that you saw issued the other day compare
wit[i what is now being issued to the Army ~
A.I think it would compare very favorably.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.Lieutenant, are you a fair judge of the weight ~f beef?
A.No, sir; I kiiow nothing about it at all.
TESTIMONY OF JULIAS M. (4REEN.
By tlie CHAIRMAN:
Question. What is the nature of your empl~vment?
Answer. Butcher; I am butcher at Cami~ ilobinsoil.
Q.flow long have you been there?
A.Since the 8th day of March, 1874.
Q.About what is the average weight of cattle received it tlie post~
A. ~fy beef averaged 405 pounds net weight last year, excluding kidney, tallow, ~hanks, and brisket.
Q.Are those Texas cattle that you get there?
A.Yes, sir; n)ost all of them.
Q.Are they generally steers ~
A.No, sir; cows.
Q Ilave you seen the her9s of cittl~ tli;it ~vere issu~d to the Indians`4~iere?
A.I have seen a great n~aiiy, but I paiil i~o particular attention to
hein.
Q.flow would tlie~- generilly ~0II1l)~'~re in size ~-ith the beef yoii used
-— t the l)o~t?
A.~\~ell I could iiot vely well say: because you take a large drove
f cattle and tlie sin;ill ones are crow~led on the outsi~lc, aiiil a n)au
aii't ~~~rni his opii'.ioii`~nless he goes throu~rli them  ~I()st of the cittle
uriii~li((l foi' the ~~~~~       - _  - 
4S4
By ~Ir. llAR~I5:
Q. ~~~ould, ill yonr jndgnient a lier~l of ca tle coniposed mostly of
stc~r5 be likely to weigh more tliiii a herd coulposed iioostly of cows?
A. ()h. yes.
Q. Ilave ~,ou or have yon ~ot any opinion to e~l)ress as to whether
the cattle fnrnishe~l to tlie Ii~dian agency here, take them all through,
weigh on tlie hoof more or less than the cattle you received at the post?
A. I thiiik they w~igbed a little more, because I killed a good inaily
two~year~old cows.
Q ~on s;~y yours w~ighed four hundred and five pounds net, excind~,ogshanks tallow, aiid brisket. ~Vhat do yon~mean by "shanks;" all below the kioce
A. All below four iiiches above the front knee~ aiid the hind shank is
cut froiii six to eight indies above the gamblejoi[it.
Q. In a fl~ir-size cow w ii at would be the weight of the rough taflow
010 the kidney ~
A. Nor niore than ten pounds.
(~ NYhat do you mean by tlie term "bnsket,~ as you n~e it ~
A. It is ioothing no ore than a strip taken down off the neck  it is a
pie~e of the bloody end of the neck, cut oft at tlie fourth joint.
(~.flow much would they weigh, generally?
A. The kidneys, tallow, shank, (Lild neck wonld weigh from 40 to 50
p~~uu(ls.
().So that ii~ they were left on, the average of the cattle would be
tiom 40 to 50 pounds higher?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Those cattle that you saw for the agency, what was their quality
as beef?
A. I got some very goo~l beef out of them.
(~.Then you have exchanged beef sometimes with the agent when he
got out of cattle ~
A. Yes, sir.
t~. That beef you got by exchange was good beef?
~. Yes, sir.
Q. As yon saw the herds coming to the agency, how did they cornpare as njer~~liaiitable beeves with those that you have kille~l?
A. Last wiiiter the cattle in this country, the Texas cattle fell away a
gre;lt d~al; last spring they got thin.  I only saw oiie herd here that
~05 thii~-that was last spring; the rest was all good.
(~ flow bug have you been a butcher?
A. I have beeii aronn(i butcher-shops for ten years.
(~ Has ~`our ~~utchering all beeii ~lone at the military posts?
A. No, sir.  I worked two years at Omaha, and also iii llamilton
Ohio.
By Mr. ATll~RTON:
Q. You remember an occasion when eleven cattle were killed by th
Chyennes ~
A. Yes, sir.
(~.In what herd were they killed?
A. In the post-herd they were taken from the post-herd and dress~at the Cheyenne camp.  br. Saville made them good afterward, a'
allowed me to select eleven from the agency-herd.  I selected eleven
the fattest, but not the largest which netted 450 poniods each witbc
tlie shanks, tallow, kidney, or brisket; but with those they would 4
about 500. 
485
CAMP ON THE NIOBRARA, NEBRASKA
(THIRTY MILES BELOW RED CLOUD AGENCY,)
~ati~rday, August 14, 1875.
After leavin~ Red Cloud age!icy the commissioners proceeded to a
poii0t on the Niobrara River to iusl)e~t a large heul of cattle owue~l by
J. ~V. Bosler, and intended for delivery at the Red Cloud and Sj~otted
Tail agencies under the existing contract. The commissioners examined the herd, which numbered 5,500 head.,J. N\~ and J. II. Dosler acconipaiiied the commis~ioners to the camp, where George i~I. Bosler was
foui~~l iii charge of the herd.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE M. BOSLER.
Ly Mr. ATHERTON:
Qaestion.?\Ir. Bosler, were you I)reseilt at tlie delivery of cattle at
Red Cloud age ii cy, November 14, 1874
Answer. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see Professor Marsh at or about that time?
A. I did not see the Professor at the delivery of the cattle.  I saw him
afterward at the ageilcy.
Q. Did you have auy conversation with him about the cattle?
A. No, sir.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Was it on the same day as the delivery of the cattle that you saw
him at the agency?
A. I could not say.
By ~Ir. ATHERTON:
Q. Did he make any remark to you or in your hearing as to the condition of the cattle?
A. No, sir.
Q. N\~ere you the only person named Bosler who was present at this
delivery?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I call your attention to the statement, on page 25, of Professor
i~[arsh's pamphlet: "The cattle of this herd were so wretchedly poor
that even the contractor, ~[r. Bosler, deemed it necessary to apologize
for them." I want to ask you, did you, to any person, make aiiy statement respecting the condition of the cattle in the natnie of an apology,
or exi~lauation, or excuse?
A. ~Iajor Burt came to me and asked me what made tlie cattle look
so gaulit.  I told him we lia~l driven the cattle iii a storm  for two days
aiid one night; that they had neither grass nor water during that
time.
Q. N\~as that statement to ~Iajor Burt a correct statemeiit of tlie fact
iii the ease
A. Yes, sir; I was merely answering the qnestioi~.
By Mr. llARRLS:
Q. N\~hat was in other respects tlie condition of those cattle
A. They were good cattle o~it of a hei'd ot ~,OUO head like those y()u
have seen this morning.
Q. ~N~ere they as good as those we have seen this mor'iing?
A. Yes, sir they were fatter cattle, oi~ly we had drivei tlieiii for two
days aiid a night iii a storm, a~id of course sliowilig all ti~e time as it 
4S6
wa~, it made them look rough; they had no food or water d~iring the
time.
Q. llow far had you driven tlieni?
A. I bad st~rte(l them fi~om about five i~~iles below here, where we
now are on the Niobrara: that is about thirty-tive miles froni the
ag~ncy.
~? llow happeneAyou to be ~o long driving them thirty miles?
A. It ~ommen(~e~ ~nowiI1g on tiie morning we started driving the cattie, and kept snowing all that day and all that night, and the next moriiing we got lost, and did not get in to the agency until iiight.
By Mr. ATlIERTON:
Q. How far do you ordinarily drive cattle iii a day
A. From fifteen to twenty-five miles.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. You say they could not get water ~luring that time?
A. No, sir; they could iiot.
Q. We~e the streams frozen?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. A~H~RTON:
Q. Are you a contractor for the delivery of cattle at the agency?
A. No, sir.
(? Have you any interest in any cantract for that purpose?
A. No~ sir.
Q. Had you at that time ~
A. No, sir.
Q. N\~hat is your relation to the contractor?
A. I am working here for J. ~Y. Bosler.
Q. I mean your blood relation; is he your brotl~er?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. HARRis:
Q. Have you the care of the cattle?
A. Yes, sir.
(?HEY~NNL', N\~. T.,
Tuesday, August 24, 1S75.
Present: Hon. Tll(J~MAS C. FLLTellLR, chairman; Hon. B. N\. HARRIS, Prof. CLoRGE W. ATHERTON, Hon. CIlARLES J. FAULKNER, an~
Hon. TIMOTilY 0. HowE.
GEORGE M. BOSLER was recalled.
By the CllAWMAN:
Question. Mr. Bo~ler, were you in charge of the herd of cattle in 1S73 ~
Answer. Yes, sir.
Q. Do yoii remember having a conversation with Mr. Saninel N\~aiker
at any time?- He c-~me out to investigate some Indian frauds.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~~here was the conversation which you had with him?
A. At Red Cloud agency.
Q. Did you have more than one conversation?
A. I had but one conversation with Mr. ~Yalker.
Q. Please give, in your own way, the substance of the conversation,
as near as you can recollect. 
487
A.;\Ir. ~Valker was presetit at the deli~very of ~attle.  The first evetiing I came with tlie cattle ntyself.  I doii't ren~eiiiber the ~late, but if I
recollect it was in October. ~Ve went dowii,`i rid the cattle were tuirned
over, weighed, and delivered.  ~Ir. ~Valker asked iiie whetl~er those were
such cattle as I ha~l been leliveriiig.  I told him  that our cattle were
all iii the coutitry, and that lie could go do~vii aii~l judge for himself,
atid I would be very gla~t to take him down wheii he wished to go.
(~. ~Vhere were the cattle?
~.Part of then~ were 011 Ruriniji~ Water, where our meti were, arid
part of them were on the Platte.  Well, he sai~l lie could not go, as he
liad 10 time, or something to that elIect.  I doii't remember his reniark.
That is all that I recollect now.  lIe did not go to see the cattle.
By Mr. llARRts:
(~. Did lie object to the cattle, or sa~- they were not good?
A.No, sir; I heai-d hini make no remark of that kiiid.
(~. Did you go to the herd after you saw him for the purpose of ascertairling the number of cattle which had beeii receipted for?
A.No, sir.
Q.Did you not come back and state to him, after being at the herd,
the number of cattle which had been receipted for ~
A.Mr. Walker asked nie whether I knew how many cattle were not
receipted for.  I told liim I did not know, as I (lid riot take Ul) any receipts
myselfl  I took a memorandum-receilit when I delivered the cattle.
Q.I)id you retui-ii to the agency after lie left, and say that the Governmerit owed yorir br-other for 79S, arid maybe more?
A.I told hiin that I knew which were not receipted for at the last
deli~-ery, but I could not give him the exact number, as I did not take a
receipt for them.
Q.Tlie question between yon, then, was not how many cattle were
receipted for, but how many were riot receipted for?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Do you remember his asking you this question?
A.Re asked me how marry cattle were not receipted for.  I handed
hiur the memorandum-receipt, which, I think, stated the anrourit stated
there iii his report, 79S.  This I told him was all I knew, as I gave the
memorandum-receipt to my brother when he came along.  I mean the
memorandtrm-receipt which I receive frorn the agent when I trirri over
the cattle to him.  I mean by not receipted for, cattle which I take to
the agency and only take a niemorandurn-receii)t from the agent for.
Q.\Vhat do you do with the memorandum-receipt which you take at
the time the cattle are delivered?
A.I turn that over to my brother, and upon iliat he obtains the
voricher from the agent.
Q.Did you hear any con~-ersation between ~Ir. ~Valker and the agent
or ~fr. Appleton, the agent's clerk, a ~ to whether there was any account
kelrt at the agency of the cattle kept ~
A.No, sir; I drd not.
Q.Did you say to Mr. Walker at aiiy time that receipts were written
by your brother for the agent's sign attire?
A.No, sir; I don't recollect of ~Ir. Walker asking me that question.
I have never said to Mr. Walker that my brother ma~le out receipts for
Doctor Saville~s signature, and I have so stated iri a foirner examr~iation.
(? Rave you ally knowledge of tire stariil)ede of cattle which occurre~l
in October, Tb7o~~, when the staml)eded cattle were driven h(i(~k t) your
herd-" lien sortie five or six hundred cattle were stariilreile(~ 
A. I ~lon't remeniber but one stampede, and tbat took place last fill.
().Do you reniember that the agent lost a large number of cattlc whiuh
were afterward turned into the herd as they were gathered up?
A. I remember the circumstance, but not the number of c'Lttle. That
was last fall a year ago.
Q. Do you know bow the~ were turned into your herd?
A. No, sir; I know that the agent's inen brought some cattl~ back
there, and my men received them. I was not there.  I don't know how
many were put in the herd.
Q. Do you ki~ow personally of those cattle being turned back to the
agent )~
A. Yes, sir; I do. I was ordered to return the cattle that the agent
had turi~ed back into my herd. An equal number was given him, as it
would be a very hard matter to turn back the same cattle.
(?.Did you keep a record of the number of cattle received ~
A. My man who was in charge of the camp kept an account of thenuml~er. It was either Porter or Roudon. They are not now in my employ.
I dont k~low where they now are. They did not give me any account
of the numbers. My brother, J. II. Bosler, was at the agency at the
time.
Q. Personally you don't know that any cattle were ever turned over
to the agent to make up Ibr the cattle which were turned into your
herd~
A. Yes, sir; I do. I know that at the next delivery an equal number
of cattle were taken off to make up the number, but I was not present,
and know it only from my account. I keep a record of the number of
cattle I have in iny herd, and when I deliver some cattle I take that
from the whole number, which leaves so many in my herd; and if tlie
agent turned over any cattle to my herd, I would know it by the whole
number. And when I came up, my brother gave me the account of the
number of cattle which had been delivered to the agent, and he gave
me the numbers less the amount of those stampeded catile. I don't remember the number.  I could not say whdher it was three, four, or five
hundred.  I could not say how many. I have no book with me that
would enable me to be accurate on that subject.
Q. Did you testify fully on this subject before?
A. Some of these questions were put to me.  I did not then give any
statement from my book. I have not examined my book s~ince that
time. I don't keep ally regular books, only an account of the cattle I
have in my herd, and at every delivery I know how many I have left, or
should have.
Q. Did you add to them the number of cattle which returned to your
herd from the agency ~
A. 1 did not do it.  My brother c'i{l it.  I was not present when the
cattle were turned back. I was not l)resent when the cattle were turned
into the herd. My brother, J. LI. Bosler, was.  I don't know that lie
was at the herd, but he was iii the country. I don't ki~ow whether tlle
herder gave him any accoui~t l~or the cattle which were returned to the
herd.
By ~Ir. ATlIERTON:
Q. Is this book which you speak of in such shape as you can show it
now?
A. I don't keq~ any 1)00k myselfl  I know how many cattle I have in
my herd, and all I tIke wheu I deliver any cattle is a memorandum-receipt, and when n~y brother comes along I turn it over to him.  All the 
4S~J
accounts are tur~ied over to J. ~Y. Bosler.  All I have to do in this
b~siness is to take charge of the cattle and deliver them to the agent.
By ~~r. llAPRIS:
Q. Suppose yon were to have six tltousaiid given you to-day to keep
as a herder, would you charge yoni~self oil aiiy book with ~uch cattle`.
A. No sir.  Every man I hive in my employ is suppose~1 to kiiow
how maiiy cattle he has in his heni, and keeps account of them.  If 1
have five thousand cattle in my herd, after I deliver one thousand, I
have four th~~usaiid left.  I do it from memory.
Q. Tijen you do iiot claim that yourself, or J. II. Bosler, or J. ~V. B().sler, or aiiy of your herders have kel~t any accouiit, in writing, of those
cattle which were turned over to yon by Agent Saville?                 ~~~ffi
A. J. II. Bosler did.  No one else bad aiiy acconiit.  If I had been
there myself, I would have ke1)t a memoranduni of that occurrence.
By the CllA~RMlN:
Q. Doii't you keep a memoraiidum of the number of cattle yoii have
yonr herd?
A. No, sir; it is a very easy matter.  If I had twenty thousand cattle in my herd, it is a very easy matter to recollect it; aiid, of course,
my men know how mai)y cattle there are there.  ~Iy brother buys all
the cattle, and turns them over to me.
Q. If your brother would buy five thousand cattle and turn them over         7
to you, he makes a memorandum that he has turned over that nuinber
to you, does he not?
A. I suppose so.                                                        -
Q. Then, if you tun~ over to the agency one thousand cattle, you take         -
a n~ernorandum-receipt for tho~e cattle, and turn it over to your
brother?
A. Yes, sir.
(?.And for that your brother credits you with that number of cat.
tle'?
A. I presume so.  I deliver cattle as long as I have any, always de.
ducting the number delivered, to determine the number left iii the henland as this is all I have to do about it, it is aii ea~v matter to recollect
bow in any are left.
SPOnED TAtL A~ENcY, NEBRASKA,
3I0i~d(~y, 1llg~(.~t 1b, 1S75.
Present:lIon. Tll(jMAS C. FLETciIER, chairman; lloii. B. N\~. IlARRIS,
IIoii. CllARLES J. FAULKNER, aiid Prof. GEORGE \V. ATuERToN.
EXAMINATION OF SUPPLIES.
Tlie commissioners, in company with the agent, ~L~or E. A. llowai~i
aii~l hi.~ clerk, E. D. ~IcEvena, visited tlie store-houses at tlie agei)cy,
aiid examined tlie sui)i)lies oil hand. One of the barrels of l~ork, marked
on otie end  Booge, \Vare & Ci)., I)ackeis, niess-I)ork, Sioux City, Iowa,
200 t~ouiids," aiid on the other etid,  T. S. C'lii'kson, iIisl)ectoi','' was
opencd, every piece of pi~rl taken out aiiil extinlined, aiitl tlie whi}le cotitetit. of tlie barrel l)ronouiiced by the coininissiolieLs to be " good, nice,
swee - 
490
~ ~ack of flour was then opened and examined.  The agent said
This flour is some uf the s;ime thit ~ ou have been eatii _ here  It was
received on the 31st Jtily, 1~77), (last mouth,) aiid is tile balance of the
contract-supply for last year.  Tlieic hIS been no coinl)laillt from the
In~lians of the quality of the flour.  Tlie flotir we are now using is of the
same general character th;tt we have liad diii.iiig the whole of last year.
The Ilalne of the contractor f)r furIlishing tlie flour is J. L. ~Ierria;n,
Saint Paul; the contractors tbr translortation oveilaud froni Fort I~andalI are Pratt & Ferris."
~ sack containing three pieces or sides of bacon was opened, one of
the pieces was cut, and proiionnced to be " good bacon.'
k sack of corn of last year's supply was opeiicd and examined and
foflIld to be  of excelleiit qnality and in good coildition."
The commissioners then examined the sugar and cofibe, both articles
being of this year's sn~~ply.  In this cOilileetiOn the a~ent said- "The
coft-Ce of last year was liot quite so good as this.  The sugar is about the
same quality as that of last year.  There has been no complaint about
the sngar.~'
The commissloners then adjourned to the office and proceeded to
examille witnesses.
TESTIMONY OF E. WILLA~D.
I have been clerk at the agency here until the last of June, 1875.
~Ir. ~1cEvena bas taken iiiy place.  The following is a transcript from
the records of receipts of beef at this agency from June 21, 1873, to June
30, 1S75:
Beef cattle receired at ~~otted Tail agency.
Date.                      N~Oe~O~ Giruos7owuue$Thsb.t
l~73.
June21                                             535             440,305
July 12                                            322             303,J24
July 23                                            725            759, ~()0
August15                                           444               467,0~~
~epteu~ber 1                                      4(~(i            4~3, OtO
September 15                                       530             532,650
O&-tober 15                                      J,~5(;          1,105,632
Novomber 25                                       t;55            622, 250
D~cember 12                                        355              324,~35
]~74.
January 20                                         401            377, 092
Febru~ry 4                                          19~             1~9, S7~
February 13                                        251             254,207
~Iarch 15                                          270             277,749
April 24:2~'            487,344
May19                                              4iu              394972
Juue9                                             11)2             1u8,864
(All the above are on tlie contract fur the fiscal ye-ir begiiiiiing July
1, 1573, and ending June;3() JS74.) 
491
Date.                     No. of Gross wei~ht
hea~1.   in pounds.
July 2.....     1S74.
560   57~, 4S0
Ati~ust 1(                                    4~~143=~, 126
Au:u                                        4()I   424 152
Septenber 11                            —..;~i2
5H4,012
O~-tober I                                    ~23    610,?3044
Noveu~ber 21                                         ~62,
D~ceuiber 7                                  497     -177,120
1`=~75.                             43i3i;~:9~:0~
Febru~ry 17
Apr15                                         575  595,~)(?
5551   55Q74~
April 26                                        -19     457,060
May 2 3                                         356     349, 330
June 1                                          199     150,294
June  15                                     1  376     372,240
June  20                                        525     515,021
June  25                                        529     515,10.2
By Mr. HARPISt
Question. I notice the weigh ts are less from December to April; that is,
they will average less than at other seasons of the year; what is the reason
of that ~ Is it a fact that the cattle will weigh less from December to
April than from April to December?
Answer. Yes, I have noticed i~ I judge that to be the fact.
Q.Take the cattle that are delivered to you in February, ~Iarch, and
A[~ril; what has been their condition?
A.They are rather poor, quite a number of them, compared with        =
what they are in the summer and fall.
Q.Have you weighed any of these cattle?                              F  A.Yes, sir.
Q.Do you say that all the weights which are boriie on yon~- book are
correct weights?
A.So far as I weighed them, tlie weights are correctly stated on the
book.
Q.Have you noficed yearliugs, calves; and ~~scalawag;; cattle amoI)g
the cattle received here?
A.There are very few yearlings. sometimes one, two, or three, in a
delivery, but they have riot been CouIited; we allowed for their weight
when they went over tlie scales we made Some allowai~ce for their suj~.
l)osed weight.
Q.How much allowalice for yearlings and calves?
A.I hardly know; we killed them  aiid issued them to the whites
and half- breeds O1t the block.
Q.Have you seen the deliveries of cattle duri~~g July a~id August of
this year?
A.No, sir.
Q.Have you seen the cattle ~
A.No, sir.
(?. ~~~hat do you Sily of the beef that 11t15 geI1er'~lly 1)CC11 deliv red
hele, n.~ to its character a~i~l qu~Ilitv
A.It has been vely good. 
492
Q. ~{;~~ ~tIIh~e~nTlls~~}}iTa~~ou 1i;~ve use~1 iIj tli~ wlji~~ f~iiiiIi&s h~~re
A. Yes, sir; no other beef ~oines here.
By ~Ir. llARRIs
Q. 1)o you keep (`111 ~e~'oiiiit of tlie receij~t;iii~l the (IiStIil)tlti()1) of
annuity goods.~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Caii you show us just ho\v that is doiie
A. Yes  ir, [referriiig to the book:j There were fonrteeii b;iles of
l~lne 3 I)oiut blankets reeeive~l and distribute~l, eight bales to Sj)otted
Tail, five bales to tlie Corii and Loafer band, one bale opened and distributetl at tlie warehouse to the whites and half-breeds; ten bales of blue
2.1.1)oiIits, six bales to Spotte(1 Tail's bai~d, three b;tles to the Corn and
Loafer b(iP(~i~ oiie hale to the whites and half-breeds; ten bales of blue
`~.p~~iit5, six to Spotted Tail, three to the Corii and Loafer band, one to
the whites aiid half bree~!s; fourteen bales of green 3-points, eight to
Spotted Tail, five to the Corn and Loafer band, one opened at the warehouse; ten bales of green 2.~-points, six to Spotted Tail, three to the
Corn and Loafer band, one opened at the warehouse; ten bales of green
`~-p0~iit5, six to Spotted Tail, three to the Corn and Loafer band, one
opened at the warehouse.  All other annuity goods were distributed in
the same proportion, and in all cases where it could be done the goods
were distributed to the chiefs in the unopened packages.  There has
iiever been comi)laint that the goods fell short of the iii voice quantity.
I have been told that the brand on the blankets injured them, but have
seen no instance.  The Indi'ins prefer and insist upon the distribntion
in this fbrrn. I have no knowledge that any trader, at this agency, is in
iny way coniiected with the agent in the way of business, or that the
agent in aiiy way, directly or indirectly, derives profit from the business
of the trader.  I have no in form ation or belief that the agent has any
interest in any contract or business connected with the agency.  Our
estimates of the number of the Indians is based upon a census actually
takeii.  ~Ye have, on tlie average, about 8,000 Indians here to feed.
Year befoic last about 800 lodges of iiorthern Indians, seven to a lodge,
~anie iI)~ but no niore than 5()O to 600 lodges at one tinle.  Last year
ibont as a) ally canie in.
TESTl~fONY Ol? ~h~Oi~ 1. A. II0WARD.
Oiii: ~~cef-cattle Oil being rec~ived ni-c her~!ed, and on each issue-diy
we iiiake i list of those who are to draw, with the an~onnt for each.
That list is ti ken by the clerk ind iiiterprcter to the corral.  Tlie inter
pre!er calls t!ie iiaiiies with the nnn~ber to be issue~l, and the chief herder
cuts them  out and delivers them to tlie i~erson eiititled to t1ien~, who
then drives tiien~ away. The whole nuiiiber issued is then entered 011 the
book.  There hive been several staml)edes of cattle since I have been
here, but oi~ly three, as I renien~ber, wlieii any were lost. Iii these cases
we have tlie affld;ivits of the nniiibers 011 file, showiii g all tlie circuil)stances.  Litely I have iiistrncted the herders that they should be held
resi)oiisible for losses of this kiiid.  I li;ive never kiiowu a single herd
of e<-j~tIe to get ~aek to tlic coiiti'actor's herd.  \Ve have recently all
order from the Departi~ient liiecting us to put our i~ran~l oii every herd
of cattle.  It is iliii)ossible f~~r us to con~ ply with the order ijow, as our
corr~tl has been lately set on fire and destroyed. But we sh;tll have 
493
the corral rebuilt as early as possible, and sball tben comply strictly
with the order.  I have no interest, direct or indirect, expressed
or implied in the profits of any contract for providiiig goods or Sn!)1)lie$ to this agency, or in the busincss of any trader. I have never
i'eccived, nor do I expect to receive, any ~O~p~n5')ti0!1 for tlie appoint
me'it of a trader at the ageilcy.  T!ie cattle received l~ere liavc always
b~&~ii of a fair average quality.  Oiie or two lots in the dead of winter
have coiitained a f~w poor animals.  The weights entered on tlie
book I know to be correct, as I have generally weighed them myself.
Iii oiie instance I objected to a very few cattle that were seiit here
by tlie cOlitrIctor, bat was obliged to receive them, as we liad 100
no c-it and there li;td been cousi~lerable delay in gettilig them here, on
aceo~int of severe winter~storms. I notified the contractor, ho wever,that
I would receive no more of that kiiid. I deemed it no iii ore tliaii flir to
hiin to recei~e that lot, consideri'ig the difticulty he bad expeliejiced in
getti!ig them here.  There was a 1)eriod of thirty or forty days last winter when we were short of rations. Teams left here in December for Fort
I~andall to bring supplies, and did not get back until the following
April.  But during that period I know of 110 instaiice of serious sufferiii~ for want of food.  ~Ye always had on h9nd flour or corn, aiid beef.
There was some complaint of the shortness of supl)lies.  Oii account of
tlie l~itCI0ess of the appropriation by Coiigress, tlie sui)i~lies were received
much later than usual.  The aiinuity-goods did not reach bere until
December.  It requires about fifteen days with a mule-train and about
twenty-five days with an ox-train to bring supplies from Fort I~andall.
The coloring-matter used in stamping the blankets did injure them, as
I saw iii many instances.  The supplies of food provided are not suffi.
cient for the reasoiiable wants of theliodians.  As the game diminishes,
tlie leiioaiid for food increases.  There is need of a larger supply of coffee aii~l sugar, and a greater variety of fbod.  ~Ve esl)ecially need rice
(`hid dried aloples.  The Indians are very fond of these articles, and
understand how to cook them.  It would be ecoilomy to issue soda instead of baking-powders.  The Indians ought to have full soldiers'
ratioiis with aii additional half pound of beef. They require much more
food thaio the whites.  All my Indi~Lns are very loyal.  I do ~ot believe
they could ~with very few excelotions) be driveii iiito hostility.  They
regard the President as their best friend.  It would l)e good econoiiiy,
aii~l an iinportaiit step toward locatiiig and civiliziiig tlie Iiidiaiis, to fuiiiish them with houses as far they will occu~~y tlieiii.  ~I~~II)~ of theu~
would do so at once-~~robably one-half of all coniiecte~l with this ageiicy.
It is niy Opi 10 ion that all wlio would occupy houses should receive suits
of clothes instead of blankets.  ~1y relations with tlie military are cx-        I;
eeediiigly friendly aiid I~leasaiit.  ~~~e have never had aiiy clashiiig.
Tlie In~lian females are, as a commuiiity, the most virtuous I have ever
seen.  Ttie Indiaiis here are very ~lesii-ous to obtaiii the means of education for their children.  A school will be opened about the middle of
~eptember, aiid we anticij~ate an attendance of about fifty scholars to
b~~gin with.  This niinober will vary, but we shall probably ha~e;tn average attendance of sixty scholars the year round.
TFSTI~lONY OF LIEUT. A. (?. PAUL.
By tloe CIIAIPMAN:
Question. ~Vhat is your raiik
Answer. Firs~ lieutenaiit of the Tli rd ~~av.'tlry, stationed at ~anop
Slieridaii, near this;ogeiiev. 
494
Q. lIow long have yoii been stationed at this post ~
A. I have been here only since last April.
~? Before that where were yon stationed?
~. At North Platte, on the Eiiion Pacific R~~iilroa~l.
Q. llave you been to the Red Cloud agency
A. I only passe~i through comilig here. I passed through there last
June; 1 h~d a detachment of recruits along, and some horses.
(~.Do you kiiow Agent Saville ~
A. Oiily froiii introduction; I met him on tlie train.
Q. Did yon see any of the herd of beef-cattle that were issned at Red
Cloud agency ~
A. I saw a number of head there as I passed through, but di(1 not
know who they belonged to; iii fi~ct, I paid 110 attentioli to them at all.
Q. Could you say anything as to the particular kind of cattle~
A. No, sir, I could llOt.  If my attentioii had been called to them, I
jiiight t~ave stopped to look at them.
Q. Do you know anything of the character of the supplies issued last
fall and winter and last spring at Red Cloud or at this agelicy ~
A. I do not, only from rumors; nothing from my own kiiowledge. We
have been completing the new post here, and we have not had much
opportni0ity to look iiito those matters.
Q. Do you know anything of the suffering of any of the Indians
last winter ~
A. ~~hen I came here it was the general opinion that tlie Indians
`were starving, and had to kill their ponies. It was the prevailing opiiiioil among the officers stationed here; but I don't kiiow anything
about it of my own knowledge.  The first day we arrived here that was
one of the first things that was told us.
Q. That referred to Indians who got their supplies at this a~ency ~
A. Yes, sir; that is what I understood.
By Mr. FAULKNLR~:
Q. Did any of them come round the military post beg~ng ~
A. Yes, sir; they will do that aiiyhow.  If the agent issued them
half a do~eii sacks of flour, they would still come and beg. They are
natural be~gars.
By the CllAiRMAN:
Q. Do you kiiow anything of niism<inagement or incompetency on the
part of either the agent at Red Cloud or at this agency?
A. Not from lily own personal knowledge; all I kiiow is merely from
hearsay.
Q. Do you kiiow or have you heard of any frauds being perpetrated
npon tl~e Iiidians or upon tlie Governuient by those agents?
A. Not of my own persoiial knowledge. If I had, I would have reported
it.
Q. Tl~en you have never liad any ii~formation on that subject in such
an autheiitic slial)e as to mike you feel justified in reporting it ~
A. No, sir; I have not.  I have been at the agency very little. This
is the first titiie I have been insi~le this agency buildiiigs. I have noticed
the beef.cattle.  They did hot look to inc to be very fat; but as to suspectilig anytliiiig wrong, I did not pay any attentiou to it.  They might
ii ave been fair cattle and have come up to the standard; but I did not pay
eiiough attention to give ii~fOrmation that would be of any benefit.  I
thiiik that Colonel Mills, wlio has been here a great deal more than I
have, would be better able to give you information thaii I would. I have 
495
never called on Major lloward, the agent.  I have only met him two or
three times since I met him here; but I have heard lots of people talk,
and I never paid any att~iition to what they said.
Q.  Are the class of white men wlio are rouiid about these agencies,
or any in the emplQvmeiit of the agei)cy, generally a very reliable class
of men?
A.  I am inclined to think- you could not trust them very far. I would
not place much coiifidence iii what they said, unless they could substan
tiate it with proof.  I mean the squaw-meu and half-breeds.
Q.  Rave you ever read Professor ~tarsh's ch<~rges?
A.  Yes, sir; lie sent me his pamphlet, and I have read it very carefully.
Q.  Are there any of those cl~arges, or any one of them, about which
yoii ~`~~ give us aiiy iii formation that would go to substantiate theni?`
A.  Not from u~y owii personal knowledge.
Can you give us the names of any persons who would probably be
able to give us iiiformation about that?
A. I think I can,provided my name is n~t mentioned ill the matter.
TFSTIMO~Y OF COL. ANSON ThItLLS.
By the CII AIRMAN:
(~uestion. What is your n~nk and position here?
Answer. Captain of the Third Cavalry, temporarily conilnanding
Camp Sheridan.
Q.  Row bug have you been here?
A.  I came here last April.
Q.  ~~ere you ever here before that?
A.  No, sir; not in this immediate vicinity.  This camp was only
locited last September, nearly a year ago.
Q.  Rave you ever been to Bed Cloud agency?
A.  No, sir; 1 never "-as there.  I came through from the Lniou Pacific Railroad, on the North Platte, direct, without goilig to Red Cloud.
I can~e directly across tlie coil n try.
Q.  Rave you ever read Profi~ssor ~farsli's charges in reference to the
n)anageiuent of the Indian agencies out here?                          Ii?
A.  Yes, sir.  Tlie Protessor aiid I are pretty well acquaiiited.  We
were together one sumnier on liis bone-expedition, aiid I read in the
general newspal)ers ~Xtr'iet5 fron his cliar~es; and lie seiit me copies of $
tlie New York Tribune, and also a pam~~hlet which he has published, all
of which I have read.
Q.  Are you able to give us aiiy information in re&rcnce to aiiy of those
ch(~rge5 which would go t() Sul)staiitiate theu~?
A.  No, sir; not of niy owli kiiowle~lge.  I au~ not supposed to know
aiiytliiiig that is goilig oil iii the Iii~liau Departiiieiit; it is iiot lily busihess to inquire iiito it, aiid I siil)l)ose I kn'~'v as little of the business of
tlie Iiidia~i agency heic as ~Iajor rioward does of tlie post.  I have
f()nild him a very aflible, agi-ecable  eiitlejnaii, aiid our relitions are
agi-ceable ill ~vcry respect, aiid I kiio~\- notliiiig, so fltr as lie is coilcerned, (;iii{l of counse ilot ot tlie other ageilcies, because I have not
bceii there,) to go to 5i11)Ataiitiate them.
(~. I)o you kiiow aiiytliiiig of tlie suffei~iiigs of tlie iiidiaus last
`viliter? 
49C)
A. Yt5, sir. N\~hen I C~ifl~`icre in A1)n'1 tlie wiiiter was tolerably well
p~s~, but tile Jiidiiiis were ~(~5titHtC, and carue to inc with eoiistaiit
~uficrin~  an~1 it
~~~~1~1~l;~iiit5, aiid sai~1 that the: were   ~`i5 VCUy evident
tIlit the~ had been st tItiin   but`vho~e fault it was I conhl not 5('~'v.
~? Hive you ever observe~l tlie herils of beefeittle turned over to the
a~t~iicy for issue to tlie Indiajis
A. No, sir' I (lOii't tliiiik I q;1ve. I have seen cattle that the Iiidia'is
were killiiig.  They received theni, aiid they were driven out, and the
In~liaii~ shot them   that is all I have seen.
(? ~ould yoii;iy aiiythiiig in reference to the quality, tlie general
qu;ility of tlie cattle that have beeii issued to tlieiii here ~
A. Those that I have seen, I tliiiik, nie ~~enerally such cattle as we
w~~uld not receive iii the Army-Texas c~ittie pretty rough; ind at the
tiiue I ~ioticeil them, some months ago, they weic iie~essarily poor,
having been di'iveii here some distance.  They were iiot such as we
would have received for Army issues.
~? Have you siitti~'ient experielice in the`flatter to be able to tell
aiiythiii  ibout tlie piobable ~~Ci'i~~ weight of the cattle that have been
tuuiied over here
A. ~Vell, no  I ~ay I only saw a few, and I did not pay niuch attentioii to those.  They seenicil to be thiii.  They were below middle class,
I should judge. Still I`nay have seen the poorest, or I niay have seen
the best.
().You coulil iiot tell how those you did see would average with the
herd
A. NO sir.
(~.Do you kiiow ~"hetlier tlie cattle that you receive at tlie post for
the use of tlie Ariiiy are the same class of cattle-Texas cattle
A. They are iiot tlie si inc class.  They may be Texas cattle sometiiiies, but tlie beef we receive is pretty fair beef.  If it is not, we do not
receive it.  ~Ve have rejected some siiice we have beeii here.  Shortly
after I caine here the contractor was atteinptin~ to fnriiish some that
di(l iiot come up to the standard, aiid I ordered the commissary to purchase some in open market, and he was about to do so when tlie contractor discovered that he could do better.  He got a iiew herd, and
fiii~nishe~l beef that was very flir.  The contractor for tlie Army aiid
the coijti~~'i(tor for the Indians iiot the same persoli.
By J\tr. FA~~LkNi~R:
(~.Haviiig had such o~)~)oi'tuiiity to observe the Iiidian polinlatioli
abtiut here, have you fornied;iii:y 01)1111011 whether they aic adapting
themselves to tlie habits of our ileolile
A. Yes, sir; I think they are mIllifesting quite a dispositioii to acquire
our habits  they see~ to take l~ride iii it.  Ihey have i~laiited some
g;iideiis, aiid they are doiiig very well  they seem to realize that they
have to lo it.  ~Vheu they first cinie here they were in great distress
they ai'e just like other people; they come to me with tile~ oii the Indian agents, aiid I suppose they go to the Indian agents with tales
against us.  They waiit sympathy.  I believe the majority of the older
people aiiioiig them waiit to adapt themselves to the habits of the wbites,
but the younger ones do iiot.  I will relate a circumstance: About the
time the Indians weiit to ~Vashiiigton tiiey had their annual "sun(~ance," half.way between here and I~ed Cloud agency.  On such an oc
casloil all the Sioux Nition is su~~posed to meet and have a famous dance,
aiid they revive their old tr;iditions aiid custonis.  At that tlance,their
chiefs being abseiit, a war-~)arty wis organized, coiiiposed of the youlig 
497
men of all the tlifferent nations  The O~~Il('~llft~ the ~rnJes, the ~IinneC()1)jon~ came (lOwli fron~ the`iortlj.  There wei~ probably six or eight
hnn~lr~d Warriors.  Their osten~ib'e pnrl)o~e was to go agail)st the
J~a~~i~ees, the Poncas and the Oiiia{ias, but I have ~i~ donl~t they int~n~lc4 to pick lip any straggling whitc mcii they c()!ild fiiid iii the settle-         -
I1~eiits.  They procee~ied on tlicir ~~V as far as the Ni~~bi'ara. thirty
miles south of here, before anybo~iy h~eie was aWare of it.  Tlie chiefs
then caine in from ~Va~hinaton.  N\~hen Spotted Tail heard of it he was
Very aiigry, and sent a message for those belonging to liis band in the
party to i'eturij.  This I am relating mo~tly fi'on~ hearsay, but I kno~v
the i)riI1ci1)'~l facts to be true, as yon will learn by the resnit. Tiiey sent         -
hiin a defiani aliswer that they would liot rettirn, and he then seiit 50 iie
of his 50l(iiCrs with a pipe which meant to say, if they (lid not return,
l~e would compel theiii to.  Ou~tije reeei1?t of the pipe a great portion of
liis nici retllrnc(l, but the reilialilIng l)ortloii`veilt ()ii.  The military here
}`ne'v i)otliing about it. (it w;is either accidentally or inteiitioiiailv kept
from theiii.) and tlie fir~t Wekuew of it was atelegraiii fi'oiii (;eneral ~rook,
sratilig that a ~`lr.party had ap~)eared near the I~awiiee reservatioii,
(lre~scd as Si~~nx 1'i~iiaiis, and (iii'ectiilg ns to send out scouts to iiitercel)t
tJ~ein an~l I)uliish thcii).  A detacliiiieiit was selit out from ~~~ed Cloud,
and I Seiit out a party froni here; aiid I forwarded the (lisl)atch by courier to (Daptain ~IcDoug;ill, of tlie Seventh Cavalrv, who was eiicam;)e~l
about oiie hulidred miles east of us, on ~Yhite I~iver.  ~Ve used the best
endeavors to fliid them, biit unfortunately they caine too far iiorth, and
only Captain ~IcDougalI's party discovered them. He had himself given
Uj) the chase, but very llnexj)ectedly caine across them one eveninoaiid killed one of them and captured fifteen ponies.  He would have punislied them very severely, but they had picked up a white mail-a strag
gliiig miner~who was hiiiigry aiid sore-footed, and they gave hiin a
horse aiid something to eat, aiid were briiiging him iii  That moved the
caj~tiiu to deal gelltly with them and let them alone.  They protested
that th~v had not done white men any harni; that thQv were after the         P
Poijeas.  There were about five liuiidred of them came ill here, aii~l thQv
weic bent on organizing another party to go back and whip the s&dicrs
of ~[cI)ongill%s party, but the better counsel prevailed.  I mention this
to ~ho~~ that the I)reponderance of feeling is in fivor of 1)eace, excel)t
among Some of the young iiien.
Th&re is no doubt hut Spotted Tail was very much chagrined and disaI)I)oiI)ted at the performance.  Some of tlie Iiidians about here are
adapting themselves to our ways, an~l disi)osed to eligage in farniing.  I
the~e was great snfi~rin
think tlie influence of the half-breeds amolig theni is iiot good.  I thiiik
satisfied, and they do  g amoii~ them l~~t ~ear  biit this year they are
not beg.  The ibet that they do not beg now shows
that they are not suffering a? present.
Q. Does your experiencie enable you to suggest aily plaii by which we
can get rid of these squaw-men
A. Nes, sir.  I think a great deal of trouble arises from tlie fact that
tlie power of Indian agents is too teinliorary.  I think their coninlissioji
shon 1(1 be duriiig good behavior, and they should have salary large   1?
enough to make them independent  An Arinv officer does not allow any
one around the post whom lie does not wailt  l~nt an Iiidian ageiit is t()O
t$nder sometilues, of those arounil the agency, aiid lias to act tiolitic
n ith them. and keep them on his siile; otherwise they would truiiip iii)
lies and get him renioved, whether lie is ~~ood or bad.  I tliiiik the great. i}
~t beiieht to be derived would be fr~iii a~comniission for ~ii~liaii ageiits          t
Jike Ari~~J~ officers~for life.
I I~ 
~? Your OpifliOI0, tI~en. is t1)(~t i~ost of th(`~~(~I0t~ a~ fnlly i1upresse~~
~vith the fact of the iiU11i?iolls ett~~tt resiiltiii froiii those (1fl(t~V-IHC1) beiiig
about the agel)cies. l~ut re not cI~~thed ~ith the autht~ity or tenure of
oIh~e to eiiable'theiu to gt~t i~id of them`?
A. Yes sir.  Ai}other thiii  I n~ight ~tate.  (~f cour~e, in tl~eir dealings ~-ith tlie Ii~dians the ()l)jCCt of tlie Iiidiau I)ep'irt1il'~ut and the \~~ar
1)epartme~t is tlie sanie that is, to civilize the Indians but, as the n0atter now stan'ls. there is too iiiuclt jealousy ind suspicion between tlte
temporary othici 5 icti1I~`~s agei~ts (`i1~d tlie Arniy officers.  Army ofli~ers act iiiore <iuthoi'ititivtiy, aiiil would like to see n~ore authority cx
ercised it the`~~C1iC~.  Thei'e is the best of fi~eiiiig existing hei-e, but I
have seen other l)laces where the commanding officer and the agent 5115pC('t(~(1 each other, aii~I they did not work in harmony.  If this other
plaii \vele adopteil, there would be a ui~ity of fee!iiig that cannot exist
under tlie I)resC1~t ~~!]~~~~  A great liiaI0y think th('tt the maliagemeut
of Iiidiaii an.(.iirs ouo'ht to be ill tlie h'~nds ot tlie Arn~y, but I thiiik tlie
a Inc iesnlt thIt those l)eol)le aiiti~ipate would be obtained if the In'liaii
agent, a civiliaii, were appointed for life.  Army officers ai'e tried by
their I?cers  (ill Iiidian`~ geilt should be iii the same J)OSitiOii.
Q. Are theic any l)ci-sons that you know of who have information of
their owii knowledge of any incompeteilcy or frauds on the part of the
ageiit here
A. [ have heard a great many people say things were wrong. and all
that, but I don't know wheta'er they ki~ew or not.  Several persoiis,
s(lu;iw-men, canie to ii~e and said they knew of frauds and would substantiate their statements as soon as this commission came, but some of
them had not the iiitelligeiice to know.
TESTIMONY OF LIEUT. CflARLES M. P~OCKEFELLER.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. N'~hat is your rank?
Answer. I ain lieutenant in the Ninth Infantry-quartermaster and
commissary at Camp Sheridaii.
Q. flow long have you been at Camp Sheridan?
A. Since it was established.
(~.That was in August or September?
A. On the 12th of Sej~tember of last year.  ()u tl)C 9th of Se~)tember,
1S74 the first trool)s were stationed here; we came here before the
agency-buildings were put up.
Q. During the time that you have heen here have you had occasion
to observe tlie herds of cittle thit were turned over to the agency for
issue to the Indians?
A. I have seen sonic of tlieiii  I have seen several of the her~ls.
Q. ~Vhat was the geiieral appearance and character of them?
A. Texan cattle, all of them  I do iiot thiiik there was any exception.
I think they were poor specimens of Texas cattle; prob~ibly the pooresi
Texan cattle; that is. the lowest grade. There are so inc grades of Texaii
cattle that are as ~o{1 iii the spriiig of the year as American cattle.  I
had both American aii~l Tcxaii cattle in Arizona, and in the spring-tim'the officers prcfrrred the ~rexaii cittle.
Q. Do you know aiiything of the sufibring of the Indians here las
winter and this spring'! 
499
A. Only what I saw and heard of, that they suffered.  1 iiever had
any doubt that they suffered a great deal more th'~n white inca could
have suffered and lived under it.
Q. Are you able to state anything as to the ca~ses of the suffering;
w}io was to blame for it?`
A. I am not; of my personal knowle~lge I ain not able to tell who was
to blame; but that some one was to blame I have no doubt, and never
ha~t any doubt.
(~.Rave you had occasion since you ii ave been here, since tlie agenQv
h~s been established, to examine at any time the supplies issued
here?
A. I have never had any occasion to (10 50.  I have been here on issue~la-ys at times and seen~the quality of tite i)rovisioiis.  I have seen them
issue pork of the poorest quality, something that the Subsistence Departni~~nt of the Army would condemn.
Q. Rave you ever noticed the sugar and coffee?
A. I have nevei' noticed the coffee, except at one time the contractor
foi hauling ~overnment supplies from Sidney here wa~ short one sack
of coffee, and he wanted to transfer to me a sack that lie purchased of
one of these squaw-men, and he brought it to iny coniinis~ary and [ refused to receive it, and the boaisd of survey refused it, (Lii(t it was returned to the men; it was Ii~dian coffee, and it was not such as we would
issue to the troops.
Q. Rave you ever examined the flour?
A. I haveliad no occasioiito exaiiiinethe flour, but compaiiycominanders have reported tome concerning tlie quality of the Indian flour. ~hen
we first arrived we had more hard-bread than flour; the Indians preferred hard-bread to fl&~ur, and they were giving two sacks of flour for -
one box of hard-bread, (a box of hard-bread will weigh froiii forty to
sixty pounds net;) they were giving two sacks of flour for one box of
ha rd-bread.  As commissary I made no such exch~nge, but company
commanders would allow their men to do it; then they would take one
sack of commissary flour and two sacks of Indian flour and make bread
for their companies; but they 50011 stopped that and it is not done now.
That was~something'that the agent himself probably had no knowledge
of.  The Indians, or the white men around here, would trade it for hard
bread, but if he knew of any such case he objected to it.  The soldiers
found that the Indian flour was not as good as the commissary flour and
they concluded that they would rather eat hard-bread. It was not spoiled,
but it was a i)oor grade.  The flour we got for the Army would average
y~2.25 per hundred pounds without transportation; with transportation
added. from Omaha here, the price would be increased to about.~6.25
j~er huiidred pounds.
Q. Have youanymeaiisot statiiig, a~~proximately at least, the average
weight of cattle that you received at the post?
A. By coiitract the cattle iiinst be ~teers of ~ood (~uality; must iiet
five hundred pounds, but they don't al'va~'s do it.
~&~- Are the cattle you get Tex;is cattle?
A. Sometimes Texas cattle, l~nt iiiost gelierIlly half-breeds.  IF they
are in good order thev re oood ~)cef.  ~Ye are iiot gettiiig for the A~my,
now, the best quality of beef, by aiiy i~C~ii5.  The coiiti'actor ets eight
ceiits per pound on the block; lie cIlillot furiiish the best bect. f~~r 1 liat
price.  lie gets six ceiits net oil the hoot.. by tlie contract, when wt retjnire them oii tlie hoof.  In cittle weigliiiig thirteeii huiidred pon ids
aiid over they allow 55 per ceiit. for tlie net weight - iii cattle un~er
thiiteen hundred 5) per cent. for the net weight. 
500
Q. IIav yon no recollection or means of tellii~g about the average
weight of any cattle that yon inay have received oil foot
A. I have received l~ut two cittle oij foot  I i~cver weigh any on foot.
(? Now. the cattle that you have seen at ~`L~~O~5 times herds of cattle
that were turned over to tlie ladian agency. how would they compare
in size and weight with those you receive'?
A. Some of the cattle received here for the Indian Department would
`i~et over five hundred p~~unds; some of then~, ii) my opinion, would net
less.  I have seen heavy steers here; I have seen old cattle ill their
herds that niight have been worked  they would iiet over five hundred
pounds  their boiies alone would iiet pretty ii ear that-heavy-flamed
steers.  Then n)y answer to that luestioli would be, I believe some of
them would net over five hundred, and that son~e of them would iiet
less.
By Mr. llAPR~5
Q. Do the military use more cows than steers, or more steers than
cows   N\~hich do thev l)refer~0ood fitt cows or steers for beef?
A. The contract says ilothing abotit cows; it don~t allow cows; it
5~'i~5 steers; but they do send inc cows, and I use them, but I would
1~refer iiot to have them. Son~etinies the contractor here would send us
beef that we would not take, if we were where we could purchase ill
open ~iiarket.  I have tried several times to purchase beef in open market~but could not do so.  Sometimes I have received cows and yearlings
that I should not receive if I were where I could purchase in open
nia rket.
Q. Did you ever notice ally yearlings among the Indian cattle ~
A. No, sir  not to my recollection.
BytheCHAIRMAN:
Q. Have you read the pamphlet of Professor Marsh containing his
charges with reference to the mismanagementofthe Indian agencies out
here
A. I recollect readii~g a letter, or synopsis of one, in the New York
Tribune, which embodied some charges of Professor Marsh against the
Interior Dep'Lrtmeilt, but I do not recollect to-day what Professor Marsh
charges the Interior Department with doing or with not doing.  I recolleet reading of Professor Marsh going to the President with samples
of coffee sugar, tobacco, &c., but I have never seen the pamphlet which
Colonel Mills spoke to you about.
Q. Do you know, then, of any mismanagement or fraud on the part
of the Indian agent or any i)ersoil connected with tlie management of
Indiaii aff~~irs of which you could give us information, or of any per.
sons to wh~~in you could refer us that would be likely to give us such
jnforniatioii
A. Of my own persoiial knowledge, Governor, I could say nothing that
would implicate any p'trtic~l~~ person.  I was with the agent, Mr.
Howard, a good deal last winter, and he seemed to be right worried
that his sul)plies did liOt get here.  I told him I had 110 doubt his
Indians were liuiigry; that they were coming to us aiid troubling us
a great deal, and I was afraid the ~~ar Department would object to the
issue of stores to them.  There is all order from the ~Var Department
which allows a post comn~ander to issue provisions ill small quantities to
the Indians.  That was done in one or two instances to some of these
Iiidians-a box of hard-bread, a little bacon or coffee was given them
but when they got so hungry on accouiit of the non-arrival of their
supplies, they came to us for food, and we helped them all we could 
501
bi~t we could not help them much.  I bad to attend to the troops first,
~nd I did attend to the Indilns so much that I received a ciu~ular from
the War Department saying that it was llOt tlie duty of the Snbsistence
J )epartment of the Army to furnish sup~~lies to the Indians, the Interior
Department having notified the \V((tL Departrneiit that there was no
provisioj~ in the Indian bill for re irnbursii~g the Sul~sistence Departuient
of the Army for supplies issued by the Army.  Perli;ii~s, Ciovernor, our
haviiig issued here did not call forth this circul-ij', becanse we never
issued aiiy great number of pouiids of ba~~o~i or hard-bread~I)erhaps
five hundred pounds per month.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.Upon what facts do you base the conclusion that the Indiaiis suffiretl niaterially during last wiliter  iij)()1i the mere fact that thQy were
lWre;t)egging for food, or upon what other ficts do you base the conclusion
A.Well, from the fact that the Indian agent came to me and said
that he had (these things I have on record) no pork for theiii, and that
the beef-cattle were not bere; that lie liad worried and written and
wntten the contractor for the beef-cattle, aiid he was hurrying them forward as fast as possible; because I was here and knew that that was
the case; that they had no meat for the Indians; that they had some
flour, (no sugar,) but that the meat-the beef-was what the Indians
wanted.  If you give an India~ all the beef he wants he is satisfied.
Meat is what they live on.  They estimate the number of Indians at
this agency at something like six thousand; but six thousand white
men would never have lived as these Indians did.  But I don't blame
the agent here.  As Colonel Mills has said, our intercourse has been
<juite friendly; but some one must have been to blame that they had
not sufficient supplies here.  I don't see why, on a line two hundred
and sixty-three miles long, from here to Fort Randall, on the ~Iissouri
P~iver, where the supplies, except the beef, canie from last winter, that
they should wait until winter before having them shipped.  If the
Subsistence Departiiieiit of the Army did that the men who are liable
would have to quit.
Q.Do you know any reason why the beef-cattle did not arrive here in
time ~
A.On the 2d of January last there set in a very severe snow-storm,
and it lasted, with exceedingly cold weather, from  ilineteen to twenty.
five days, when the theritiometer (lid not pretend to ruii above zero;
during that time those Indians were trying to get beef until February.
I made iiiquiries-I took no date; I have no recollection of datesbut it was during January antI February that the Indians suffered the
most, and the agent told me that tlie coiitractors were getting their
cattle up as fast as possible.  I think they stampeded two or three
times, and they were pushing them from the Platte thron~h the siiow
as fast as they could-as rapidly as possible.  I thiiik they~were thirtyodd days without their usual issue of beef to the Indians.  Tlie Indians
killed their dogs, but they will kill oiie of their dogs as the white man will
k-ill a turk~v~a dog is a luxury.  I understand that some of them killed
their ponies, but I never saw tiem do it, because their old tra~litioiis
ijid everything of that kind would keep the Indian from killing his
I)ouy until he was compelled to Jo it.
Q.If there had been supplied at the proper tiiiie and on l)~nd here
sufticieiit i)ork and bacon, then the failure to g~t tlie t~eef-cattle here
~-ould not have caused any suffe~'ing among the l)eol)le? 
502
~.~~~ouId not have caused ally privatioii particularly.
()If heic are`Ill~ suggcstioiis you C('ifl lil('lkC fllit ~`ouid be of ai~y
a~!vaiita~~e to the Government or the Indians, ~ve ~otild be glad if y~)n
~`onld gi e then~ to us.
k.I bt~lieve that a store-hou~e, large enoi~gh f~~r ~toring all ilecessary
solid meats, conld be erect~~1 here aiid the stores got ill here before the
st?vere st~rms ~omnience.  Peef-cattie it would be right dift~cnlt to herd
and hold here, as much as would supply the Indiai~s for three months
at one time  it WOUl(l be hard work to sul~sist such a herd of cattle.
~~~ith reference to agriculture, as to tlie Indiaijs raisillg much, I believe they may do so tlieie is a baud amonQ them known as the "Corn
~~and, that started to rai~e curn and the other Indians made a great
deal of fun of them.  ~Iy exl)erience in Arizoi~a with the Pimos ~s
that thcy raised a great deal of corn  that would pay the Indian for
his labor. I think they might have good herds the con ntry is adapted
to grazing but, as to farming I think it is improbable that yon will
ever g~t the regular fi~ll-blooded Iiidian to engage in it to any considerable extent.  Tlie best prosl)ect for them is to encourage them in
herding cattle and raising stock.  These Indians here, I think, are as
lazy as aiiy I ever saw.
Q.Taking everything into consideration, and the short time that
these Indians have had to acquire any civilization, the progress among
them is encouraging, is it ~
A.Yes, sir; I think those that are here are the most peaceably indined Indians I have seen in this sectioii of the country; I think it is
the most peaceable baud of the Sioux Nation-I mean the whole of tlie
Brul~ baii~l at this ageilcy.
COifNCIL WITH THE BRvL~ SIOUX.
In tlie ~~ftenioon (~Ionday, August 16~) all interview was held with the
Brul( Sioux, in the open space in flout of the agent's office.  The In~lians
sat on the ground in the form of a semicircle, Spotted Tail and Swift Bear,
the two principal chiefs, occupying chairs near~st the commissioners.
Among the other Brules present were Looking Horse, He Dog, Tall
Bull, Two Strike, iQill on Horseback, White N\Tash, Baptiste Good, and
Good Hawk.  There is some question about the high standing of some
of.these, however, as Spotted Tail and Swift Bear explained to the con~missioners afterward.  At tlie outset some question arose amollg the
discontented head-men as to ii~terpreters.  They objected to Louis Bordeaux, an intellige~it half-bre~d, on the ground that he was kindly disposed toward Spotted Tail, a'id might not do them j~istice.  The agent
asked them who they wanted, and they said Gern, who is a white man.
That individual was sent for, but he reflised to come.  Then the agent
told them that here were the Rev. ~Ir. Cleveland and ~Ir. Alstol), both
of whom understood their language, and they could correct any mistake
that might be niade.  The disaffected faction finally agreed to this arrangement ai~d the talk began, ~Ir. Quigley, another white man, subsequeiitly taking the 1)lace of ~Ir. Alston.
The' CHAIPAAN. My friends, we come here to see you, and to talk with
yon as good friends.  NVe want you to tell us how you have been treated
by the agelit and by everybody else who has had anything to do with you.
~Ve want you to tell us if the sugar, coffee, flour, beef, and tobacco that
you have been getting have been good, and if there has been enough of 
I     I     II,'~L~~~
-             C`~            ~~ ~43%~~~   ~`?-N ~ —
"$1                   -~-,
-          ~~.~~$
them. If yon have not bad what the Great Father iutended you should
have, we waiit you to tell us whose fault it is, if you know.  If we find
that anybody has wro'iged you or cheated you, we will have them pun ished for it. N\~ want you to speak freely about it, and what you say
will be put down, every word of it, and the gentlemen here (Messrs.      - -
Faulkner and ilarris) will tell it in the great council of the white men.
We are glad to see you all, and we are glad to learn that you Ii ave been
trying to be like the white man, so that after a while we hope We will all
be like one people. If we can help you in any way we will try to do so.
All that we came here for was to learn if you had been treated well, and,
if you had not, to punish the men wlio treated you badly. We want to
talk to you like brothers. N\~e don't come to promise you anything, and
we don't want you to promise us anything.  %`ow, when you talk to us we
will take all your words and tell them to the Great Father. That is all.
(~ooD llAwK. You have come here to visit us, and we are very much
pleased, indeed, at that.  At the old agency we know that our agent did
treat us well and gave us provisions, but, from that time on, our provisions
nave decreased regularly, until now there is a great deficiency. The
sugar we received here was just as yellow as the sun-flower, and it was so
bad that it killed some of our people, and you can see the graves of those
on the hills yonder, who died from eating the sugar. The beef we are
getting here is very small, and they issue one head of beef to every five
or six lodges, and the beef is so small that it does not go around, and     -$ -
the old women and children starve to death because they do not get
enough beef.  ~~henever we receive beef-cattle, if they are big, they are
too old; they are so old they have not got any teeth. And also the pork
we received was of no account. It was soaked in water, and we could
not eat it, and if we do eat it, it kills our children.  Look around and
see me and my people. We have not got good blankets. The blankets
we have are so small, we have to take two blankets to make one, and
the brand on the lilankets spoils them.  We received the annuity goods.- -
in the middle of the winter, and we had a hard time because they
were not received sooner. If you had not come by this time, I would
have been without anything to eat. We would like to have the beef    -$
issued to us on the hoof all tlie time. There are three agencies, all close
together, just like one people, and when one or two lodges come here
from other places and ask for rations, the agent refuses to give to them,
and that does not please us. The young men know we were born in
this country, that this is our country, and in this country we have a
great many beautiful creeks. The timber along these creeks we can
never exhaust, and the pine through this count~ we can never exhaust;
so I wish you to do well by us. As yet I do not know of anything by which
I can teach myself to learn white men's ways.  The wagons which
they brought here for us were brought in a broken condition. That I
might have firm possession of the country this side of the Platte I wish
you to help me.  I have one last thing which 1 desire to say very much one thing which I wish you to take hold of for me; thatis, the matter of
my food. For more than a month I have been without food-a thing
which has used up and done for many of my children.
BAPTIs~E GOOD. You gentlemen have come here from the Great
Father, and these people all know you have come from the Great Father,
and so we are all glad at heart to see you.  We Indians who are away
off back here, as for us, the (~reat Fath~r sends out you to us, and wishes
us to counsel, and wishes to know our thoughts and opiniol)s. In coun cil I gave the ideas of the people. They were sent to the Great Father,
and they were all lost. The- never got there.  You have come, and if
 
504
~0ii~e l~f;$\t}li~}'~tChl~~(rI~~&~n{S~io~n us I think "~e will (~Wttll li~re ~ei~i~~ai~~~iitly.
out here iu(l iii~triicted you to i1i(~11~I~ of lie
1~'jrtici~];~rl~ with regird to`ill iii;ttters instructed you to inqllire ()f (Ill
tlie pcol)le ~~ith r~gard to their aftairs, ajid I now tell you of these tliiiigs
for this peolile.  I heard that tlie Ureat Father was to give this peol)le
~~inethin~ that he was to give them work, cattle and cows that would
produce;&ung, and also nice wagons to which we could hitch up two
horses. They brought the wagoils here and put them out there, and liow
nialiy winters they stayed thei'e I don't know. The nien who have charge
of hauliiig freight across broke them all to pieces. As for tlie working
cattle which they were to bring me, sonie of them died and were choked
by the bow betbre they got here. ~1y father (the agent) said he would give
ine these wagons and cattle, but the wagons were broken atid some of
tlie cattle were choked to death by the contractor. So I give them b~Ci~
I want to give them back to the coiitractor and get others for them.
The Great Father commanded you to inquire into everything.  lle has
the oversight of all these things, and lie commanded you to inquire into
them all.  h)~cently a fine young iiiaii was killed right off here by the
soldiers. The soldiers also took their horses from those Indians, and I
supposed the inan whom I have for flither (the agent) would attend to
getting them back for me, but lie has not done it. Nothing has been done
about it. The Great Spirit gave us many kinds of game to live ul)on.
The whites try to take that game away fr~m us. General ilarney, ai~d
Sanborn, and myself went to Fort Laramie and fixed it there, [the treaty
of 1S(3S,1 so that the whites could uot take our game away from  us.
After`~`e fixed the papers there the Indians went south on a hunt, and
oiie got killed by the whites. flis name was ~7hisfler. The Indians used
to go buffalo-hunting in the south, but the Government asked them to
give up the huiiting-grounds for ~~25, 000. But that is not enough.  It is
pretty hard for us to give up the hunting. ground for that amount of
money, because the money is so small that it don't go around among our
people. The Brnl~s are camped above here and the Loafers below, and
we received bnt teii thousand d~~llars here, and that was very small.
The horses they bring us to pay for giving u p the hunting.grounds cost
~1'20.~S a head, but some of them are only one year old, and some only
two years olti, and some so old they have no teeth. The Brule'~s received
fifty- five head of horses, and the cows we received here were thirty.iiine
head and soiiie of them were only oiie yed'r old, and some two years old,
and some.~o old they had i'o teeth. The Loafers received twentyfive head of horses aiid thirty-nine heid of cows.  Some of the cows
that we ought to have ha~l were gone, aiid they replaced them
with Texas cows that the Great Fitlier liad giveli us to eat. The Great
Father ~ays there`i~C plenty of good white people in tlie States.  The
~TrC~it Father sent a niaii here as aii ageiit aiid told him lie iiinst pity us.
They scared me oii oiie thing that was, they tried to couiit me. Fonilodges got beef oiice iii thirty d~ys, five lodges got beef once in twenty
days, but they got very poor and very little, and the beef is very bad.
Six lodges got beef once in every teit days, but it is also very small and
very poor.  Seven lo~lges got beef once in ten days; it was very sinal 1
and very poor too, and they liad a hard tinie of it.  ~~Iy Great Father
gives ine focd for one year and althon~h I doii't know how, very well,
I endeavored to take account of what they did give me, an~l I endeavored
to take account of the cattle that th~~ alread~ i~sued me, not includiiig
the cows. The issue that they gave me for ten days'snp~~ly, the flour is
about so, [indicating,] aiid the sugar is about so, and the coffee is about
so, and as for pork, the~ gave me a piece about so long, indicating, and 
505
it is very thin, and in two day~ I us~d all that ul).  One month they
gave me sixty pounds of floni~, and I was not ai~le to get a sack for a
month.  I could not get a snck of d{~ur (`1 iiiouth.
These people around here all think (~l~k(?. ntid I tell yoii what they think.
~~~ken you came loere to see us we were delighte~l.  I am 100 fi~ieiid of
those that lie, aiid I ~m l)itifnl, and I "out yon to take ~)ity oli iioe, and
this man that the Great F;ither seiit here f~r agent we wislo you to have
him taken back to the Great Father.  I wC~nld iiot have you thiiik l~y t10i5
tbat I want a soldier to be  niy a~eiit.  I am in a hard ca~e.  ~\~jiat I
~~ant is some good white man to i)C apl)oilite&t my agent, who will look
after nie well.  As reganls the floni' they doii~t give iiie any bags.  They
pour out the fioiir for inc aiid I have to make a buiidle of it' whereas those
fionr~sacks I would use for a shirt, or to niake dresses for iiiy woiiien aiid
cliil~lren.  So long as I am here I desire the cattle to be giveli to nie oli
tlie hoof, that I may kill the cattle iiiyself as I see fit.  The Great Fathei'
told me to give up this buffalo-hniit and he told me he would give nie as
iiiai'y bnff"1l0e5 (cattle) as I gave nI).  I waiit the cattle delivered to`lie
on foot as long as the agency lasts.  The Great Father ~`i~~ me food
for one year, and when the year was Ui) the agent told one to sigii tlie
l)aI)ers for tlie rations.  So 1 sio~ned the paper, noid at tlie same time 1
did iiot know bow to rend or write: I was afraid I did not receive them
all, but still I signed it.  There are ~~lcnty of white inen around here, and
I wish to Ii ave one of them selected to look over those papers and read
the ration-returns before I sigu thcn~ also the aiinuity-goods the same.
I want to have a man to examine them, and when the pa~)crs
are all right, ~vc will sign them and seiid them back to the Great Father.
Also the provisions they seiid here, I want them l~ut in the papers and sent
them to me, and I will look them over, and sign them, aiid send them
back to the Great Father.  As for plows aiid other things by which you
are anxious to make these people white men, if you desire to make white
men of them, hurry up and give them fi~rming implements to work with.
In this Loafer band there are white men living among us that we have
for relatives.  In this Brule' caiiip it is the same way.  ~Ve Ii ave those
nien for relations, and if you give us these implements they will instruct us
to make use of them. So hurry up and give them to us. ~~hen these peoplc come to council they come out  01)CtlIy, and that is what we call
iii the niol
truth.  N\~hcn the council is     it, it is evident or probable that
there is something nndcrhan~ oyjin  oil: but this couiicil in ttic iii~ht
is something that this peolile don~t desire.  The wood they arc getting
for the houses here, that is nioney. aiid there is iiobody to look after it.
and I want you to look after it for lile.  TIoc white maii is iii tlic Black
ii ills just like maggots, and I waiit i~ou to get them out just as tinick as
you can.  Tic chief' of all thieves Genera Custer) made a road itito the
Black Bills last summer, and I want the (j'reat Father to ~)ay the damages for what Custer done.  As for cutting tlie hay abotit here, no one attends to     for mc,  for  you ~t)od mcii wlio are here I
of' ~ on w}{l~attten~ to and of   ~he traders stores arc cJnn{cOtec~ SwOii~t(;
agency, close together, and I do iiot like it that way; I do not want
to have it that way.  If I go to sell a beef-hide I value it at ~3, but
when I come to get anything tor that moiie~ I get very little for it.  I
tal~c the ~3 out in trade, and get very little over a dollar s wortn of actual
value for it.  If I got a buffalo-robe, a bug haired robe, from any where,
I ~~ould like to wear it around mc: but it' I get one I take it aiid trade
it, atid I get only three or four dollai 5 foi it iii tnide, aiid that is ~er~
hi -d.  If I get a beaver-skin, or wolf-skin, ol bear-skin, wh cii I go to
tra ~e them off I get about what they eall a dollar for it, but it is not 
506
iiiore th;~u tei~ cents, aii&~ I e~fliiOt consei~t to th('~t. The time ti~ey ll0~de
ti~e treat~ (`~t ~:ort J~('~I('~fl)~C ~~Ci)~U<'~l 1I('~I~I1C~ (`~!)d S~ii~boin inatie a lai~d
in;~rk, li~~itig the Platte 1~iver I~i c~ie aii~i tlie;\Iiss()iii'i I~iver for aii~ther liiie for our rC5CrV'~t~OI~;~i~d ~v~ ~ave up the ~oui)try south of the
1~latte for a huntil0g~grofliid`i~~(t ~V( ~visli to ii ave tlie country frou~
the North Platte, an~i I "(`lilt y()fl to help uic.
T~-o STRIKE. It you collie here ~y or~ler of tlie Great Father to
council with us, we`vaiit you to tell us ~o lioiiestly ai~d straightforwardly.  You good mcii alid good young niell because you ilave eoiiie
here to-~lay yo~ make iny heart exceedingly glad. ~ieu have been se~it
here before as coullnissioilers,;iiid I know that the Great Father told tl~em
t() do ri~tltt: but it scen~.~ that when tl~ey got here to u)y land they changed
(~1id {li~l soiiie meanness hum what I know the Great Father told me. This
laud beloligs to me.  I have bee ii born a~i~l r<iised liere, and ain fiftyfijur years of age. This laud is good, and I have been horn and raised
here aii~l I know it is good, and that is the reason I am on it.  ~ll
~rouu~l here I do not know of iny land as good as this.  This land is
good laud, and half of it belongs to the Iu{liaus, and they are liviiig 011
ft. I cannot leave this laud.  The youi)g men among the Iiidians living along this creek have had very few implements or ways of doing
aiiythiiig, but they have done the best they c~~nld with their hands, and
have doiie something and do not want to leave.
Tlie CllAIRMAN. ~\~e do not walit you to leave; we want you to stay
bere always.
Two STRIKE. So that you will hell) us stroiig is the reason I am
telling you this. The old white mcii have been a long time with 115~~~
?\Ir. Bissonet, Louis Bordeaux~s fither, Frank ~Iarshtll, Charley Gern,
Todd I{andall, P~cshaw, Boucher, (~uiglcy, ~Ioran, and Clermont. Some
of the white men that live with us do not use me right.  They steal
from nie, and I take pity on them. There are men here who have got
ilo right here.  They are not married to Indian women, and they eat
tlle rations, and I would like to have thc~n removed. I know well how
to live.  ~~hat would be the iueaiis to live with I know very well. It
is the thing that a man eats' that makes him live, and I would like you
to tell tlie Great Father to give inc more grub. Since I have been born
I have been used to cat well, not to rations for ten days.  I kill buffalo
l'very d;iy and eat it but niy Father (the agent) cuts nie short, ai~d wants
to give inc in cat on the block, aiid that woul~l be very hard; I want it on
tlle lioofl  I waiit you to h~ these tliiiigs for us as soon as you can, and
the Iiidians will all thank you. I know the Great Father waiits to buy
our land from  us, but mcii have gone in there atid stoleii it, and I
lon~t Illiuk the Great Father kiiows it.
Tlic CilAIRMAN. There is aiiother coInlilissioli here to talk about the
Black II ills. ~Vc have iiotliiiig to do about that. You will have to talk
with them  about it.  ~Vhat we are here to tilk about is whether the
ratioiis have been good enough, au~l whether your people have suffered;
and if they have we want to know it.
Two STRIKE. There has been sometimes for a month that we have
not had bacon at all. There were several months too that we had no
sugar.  ~Yhen you take this to the Presidetit you will see some sense
iii it, antI I would like yoii to look into it, a\id the President will know
if there is seiise iii it.  There have been things said l~eie which were
taken away in writing biit that is tlie last we heanl )f it. That is all
I have to say.  You good white iu(~n who have coiiie here our young
iiieii will be gla~l to see  aii~l even it' whit you have told us lon't last 
507
long, it will make them feel good for a time.  N\~heu are you going
home ~
The CllAIP~tAN. N\~e are going to 1~~ed Clond. Fort Laramie Cheyen~ie, and then to ~Vashington.
T~-o S~'RtKE. I want to find out wl}o received that n)oi)ey for the
hoi~e~. They came here small and wil~l aii~l I have been told tl~ey cost
(?VCi ~$tO().  I doii~t believe the kind of horses that caine here co~t that
niu~h, and I want to find out about it. I`vint you to find out that. I
tljii~k we have been cheated out of a great deal )f molley on tlieiii.
Tlie CIIAIR~IAN. ~Ve will try aiid fli)d out about that for you.
Two STRIKE. Yt the store here they tn~de goods verv high; tl~ey
iharge ~I5 for shawls; that is pretty h;ird on us, but no one looks to
it.  I would like you to look to that for us. That is all.
(?llARLEs ELLISToN, (a wl~ite man.) I would like permission to say a few
tliii~gs. I have been here tweiity-six years last July; have been about
~potted Tail ever since it first started. I know what has been done
here at the agency pretty well.
The CllAIP'MAN. Do you kiiow of any sufferings among the Indians
for want of food?
Mr. ELLIsTON. I do not, gir.
Tlie CHAIRMAN. Ilas the quality of rations that have been flirnished
here been pretty good ~`.
~Ir. ELLIsTON. The quality of rations that have been furnished here
l~as beeii good. My family have drawn rations, and they have been of`L
uood quality. The general complaiiit of the Indians is that there is not
enough rations. There was a time last winter that they suffered for want
of rations. I was absent and did not know it. The reason for this suffering was that the snow was so deep that the supplies could not be gotten here. I left here, going to Fort 1~andall, on the first of January, and
was delayed until the 20th of April in getting back; some wagons got
in ahead of me. The wagons that were with me hauled out sugar, coffee,
ind flour and corn.  N\~hen this Treaty of 1565 was first made at Fort
Laramie, there were a great many white men living there, myself
among the rest.  ~~e all had good homes there. The Peace Commission, General Sanboi~n and General llarney, (it was called there a Peace
Commission,) persuaded us to leave our homes and go with the In~lians to the Missouri ~iver, to the old ~Vhet~toiie agency. They made
us great promises that Ihey woul~l give us cattle and horses and fi~rmIng utensils, and fix us ~l) 50 that we could go to ftirii~ing in good style,
provided we would use our influence in gettii)g the Indians to leave the
North Platte country and go to tlie ~Iissouri 1~iver. ~Ve did so. Since
that time not one of us has ever received a hoof of cattle, nor a horse,
i0or a wagon of any kind which was promised us by that commissioii.
There have been brought here wagons, horses, and cattle, which have
been given to the Indians, but there has never aiiything been given to
any white man on tlie reservation to n0y knowledge. Now, we would
like to know what is to be done about this.
Mr. FAULKNER. N\~as this promise made by the treaty itself?
Mr. ELLIsTON. Yes, sir.  It was promised ~is in the treaty, as we understood it, either by General Sanb-~rn or General liarney. They seiit
for us to Colorado, ai~d they promised us that if we would use our in finence to induce the Indians to go to the Missouri P~iver, at what is ca' led
the Old ~~hetstone agency, they would give us these tliiiigs. No~~ it
seems as though we had no rights on this ageiiey.  ~~c are harIly
~llowed rations even. 
508
~Ir. FAULKNER. flave yofl not been receiviI)g your rations regularly
~Ir. ELLIsTON. Yes, sir  l~ut there is talk of [~aviug them  ~toppe(l.
Mr. FAULKNER. N\~ell, when they are stopped it will be tir ~e enough
to complain.
Mn 1~LLISTON. But about the cattle; how are we goi'~g to live
without these things ~
Mr. HARRIS. There are no such provisions made in tlie treaty.
The ()llAIRMAN. ~Ir. Elliston, that is a thiiig we have nothing to do
with  but we have taken your statement and will inquire into it wh~n
we go back.
YELLOW BREAST, {to the In0iaus who had been speaking.}  You
people here have been talking like fools.  Your talk has been like
that of children.  You have been abusing your agent here when you
know that he holds us very dear and treats us very well.  Your talk
has been very foolish and like children.  You want to throw away the
chie% and the agent.  We can never get a better man than Major lloward.  If you were to get an agent every day you would not get one;to
satisfy all the Indians.  You are all for the agent one day and next day
you are down upon him.  You will never get a better man than he is to
deal with the Indians.  He has a strong heart, and if there had been any
other man in his place, there would have been trouble several times.
This closed the council.  Spotted Tail held his peace.  Afterwards,
however, Sitting Bull came forward and said to the commissioners that
Spotted Tail had told him to tell them that he did not want to throw
his agent away; he wanted to have him because he had worked very
hard for the Indians at his agency, and they did not want to make any
change at all.
Upon Sitting Bull being asked by the chairman why Spotted Tail
bad not himself told the commissioners of this, he replied that Spotted -
Tail was afraid to talk; that his people would not let hiru say these
thiiigs.  Sitting Bull said "These men who have talked here to-day, and
want to throw their agent and beef-contractor away, are all fools.
The men who have sense are well satisfied with their agent and their
beef-contrartor, aiid they want no other."  He had asked Spotted Tail to
come over and talk with the commissioners and Spotted Tail had said he
would come, but his heart was very bad; yet, as soon as he got his dinner, lie would come over.
TALK WITll SPOTTED TAIL.
Accordingly, soon after the foregoing conversation in the court.yard
the commissioners had a private interview with Spotted Tail and Swift
Bear, in the presence of Agent Howard, Rev. ~fr. Cleveland, and Louis
Bordeaux, the latter acting as interpreter.
SPOTTED TAIL.  What the Indiaiis said to-day was not i~iy wish at
all.  As far as I am concerned I want to do what is right and live well.
Whatever they say about wrong-doing I do not know anything about.
If I saw anything of that kind myself I would say so, but I do not know
anything about it.  The only complaint I make is that Congress has appropriated too small an amount of money for us, and everything we get
is very small.  N\-~henever Congress makes an appropflation, then Congress notifies the Great Father how much they have appropriated for
the Indians, and the Great Father notifies the men who are under him.
Then the amount that is appropriated is given to the men in charge ot 
the ffl~ii('~H~ at N\~~shingtoii to buy tlie ~ood~ with.  The next thiug is
t seI~tt the nian to buy tlie grub and 1)1111 the fleights oL' a steamboat
ol th~railroad toa certain plac&; theii thc contractors brig the fi'~~o~btt~
thc ag~ncy aiid deliver it to the agent.  The next is that tlie (~re~t Father
11(15 selected you, Oily friends, to tome here to look jioto the ~0~11~~Cu)CI1t
of the`i~enCy.  I suppose you heird something about tiie stealiiog that
gots 010. ai~d that is the reason yoii have come out here.  if there was any
~te<iling doooe it fl)u5t have beei~ done ~I1 tlie Stqtes. the things come
tlirot~gh so many haoods.  The blankets we received lit~re, soone of them
"`ere very bad, especially tlie gicen 010 CS, ai~~l they put braiids on theon.
Thit shows that there are 50111C white 111 CII ~[oiiig all these thiiigs in tlie
St;jtes.  AlsI) tlie bacoii, silgil', aiid coilee were vely bad, l)ilt whoe~'er
hiiys those thiiigs, lie is t() blame for it, and loot tlie ineii living at the
(`1 ge licy.?\fy own agelit did iiot 0'0 down to biiy those tliiiigs.  The peol)le ilo the States buy them and send theiii out here to hiin. I want you to
tell tlie Great Father and also to tell G'oiigi'css to liocrease my rations froni this time forward.  If they do that I will bC very thankful
ft)I' it.  A great many of the words that were uttered to-day wei'e very
~ad.  I do ioot call them words at all.  To-~lay they said they had disijiissed ine and Swift Bear, "`ho is one of the priiicipal nien.  They said
we do iiot a1nouut to aiiything. \Vell, if so, who is goillg to do the busiiiess for tloeni`?  That is oiily their jealous talk.
~1r. FAULKNER. Have you any reason to believe that your ageiit withholIls from you aiiy of those snI)plies that are Sent by the Government to
you ~
~PoTTED TAIL. I belive this:  The Great Father told me that he
will feed ine with a certain amount of rations.  I kiiow n~y time has
passe~1 over a year now, that he has given us ratioios two years for notti
ing  that C'oiigress has made appropriations to give rations for two
~~`i~5 for iiotliing now.  That is as the Great Father told me wheii I was
there.  The reason why I did not receive the ratioiis in time last winter
was on account of the storm when they had to haul the iii tirom Fort
Randall, and it was impossible to haul the freight in time on account of
tlie weather.
Tlie CHAIRMAN. Did the ageiit steal any of your n~tioiis?
SPOTTED T~r~. I do not kiiow aiiythiiig about it, aiid ~r I knew he
stole anvtliiiio- I would tell of it.  Tlie rations were looked after dowii
at tlie ~Iissouri River, and if I knew anything had been taken I would
tell you so.`Yheu they were delivered here the agent (lid not have a
~`h;ince to steal any of them, because the Iiidiaiis took tli(~n' so quickly.
It the freight from this time Oil 15 deliveo-ed iii time we woii't be out of
i'ations in the winter.
Tlie CHAIRMAN.`~Vere the beef-cattle you got sin all and poor?
SPOTTED TAIL. Of COili-Se "`C received the cattle the year round, an~1
some of the.cows are bound to make a calt'; there are some C'ilves
among them.
~Ir. FAULKNER. Did Good Hawk, iii the stateniciots that lie ma~le to
the commi,~,~lon, ~peak the voews and sentinients of your tribe?
SPOTTED TAIL. I told you before, and von have got it dow ii; that lie
(lid not.
~Ir. FAULKNER. Did he sj~eak true or i'alse?
~0~OTTED TAIL. Y()u heard liis speech, aiid aiiy man wlio has lois scioses
about liim caii judge tor liinoself.
SWIFT LEAR. That fellow {Good Hawl- j never made a speech to the
whites before, and what he says is a lie.
Mr. FAtLKNEo~. ~~ lieu false statements or lies of tloat kind are openly 
510
proclaimed before the whole body of chief~ is it not yo'ir dnty to have
hem corrected before the same persons to whom they were addressed
SPOTTED TAIL. Tlte Indians won't allow me to speak, and if you were
in my place you would not speak if they did not want you to.  I under~tood you called me here to talk, and I was very much disappointed to
see that there were so many Indians here.  It was not intended, and I
looked at it with my eyes shut. I did not pay any attention to what
they said.
The CHAIRMAN. Are Good Hawk and Baptiste Good chiefs or headmen among the tribe ~
SPOTTED TAIL. Baptiste and the other one used to be chiefs of the
Brule's, but they are not now.
The CHAIRMAN. Do all the Brules listen to what Good Hawk and
Baptiste Good say ~
SPOTTED TAIL. Of course they hear it because they are men who have
ears to hear. I thin~ the other people advise them to talk that way.
SWIFT BEAR. I thought the white men had good sense and were shrewd
to understand.  They onglit to judge for themselves from those men's
speeches to-day what they were trying to get at. Like all other persons,
they sometimes talk jealously.
The CHAIRMAN. ~~ think we nnderstand it wAl, bnt we onlv wanted
to be sure that we noderstood it right.  [To Spotted Tail.}  When the
Brnle's get in big trouble, then who do they want to speak for them?
Spotted Tail smiled, maki~g no reply; but Swift Bear, speaking for
him, said: "It is not Baptiste Good nor G~od llawk."
FORT LARAMIE, w. T..
Fri~~~y, Aitgust 20, I~75.
Present: Hon. THOMAS C. F~ETcHER, cbairman; Hon. B. W. HARRIS,
Prof. GEOR(;E W. ATHERTON, and Hon. CHARLEs J. FAVL~NER.
TESTIMONY OF CAPT. JOHN MIX.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. What is yonr rank and position in the Army?
Answer. I am captain in the Second Cavalry.
Q. I wish you to state if you recollect of Red Cloud and Red Dog
giving some samples of rations to Professor ~Iarsh some time last No
vember?
A. Yes sir.  On the morning of the 10th of November Red Clond
and Red Dog, in company with some other Indians, came to our camp,
and gave Professor ~iarsh some samples of sugar, coffee, and tobacco.
These samples were given to the Proi~ssor in conseqnence of a suggestion of mine made the previous day.
Q. Did you at that time, or at any other time, see the rations that
were issued to the Indians?
A. I went into quite a number of lodges, certainly over a dozen, prob
ably twenty, and examined the rations that had been issued to the In.
dians.  I did not go to Red Cloud's at that time.  It was too far off.
Q. Did you examine the samples?
A. I examined the rations they then had on hand, and which were
issued to them two or three days before. 
511
Q. Did you exauiiue the saiiiples whith were giveli to Professor ~Iarsli
by FLed Cloud
~. ~es, sir  I exaiiiiiied tlio~e very careftilly.
(~}. ~Vere they flir satuI~le~ of the ration~ yott ~aw iii tlie tei)ees of the
Indians?
~. I coul~i SeC 1)0 diftereuce bet~veen them, sir.  Iii olie te1)Ct I found
a very fl~ir article of su~ar which the Iiiditii tol(l lue lie had l)ought
fio~ the trader, ~Ir. Deer.  lie also h~d`sotue ~)oor sugar which lie sild
he had got from tlie ugelit.
The sugar which they had icceived as rations. was it unfit for
ilSe
A. \~~ell, I should call it the very lowest gr~de that could be I)urcli't~ed iii the market.  I hive ne~~er secii as I)oor 511~i~ iii tiie market,
;iiid I should certailily colisider it the very poorest that could be pnrchised in the market.
~? Could you say that the quility w(~S such that it was uiitit for al)y
u~e, ~ii~l unwholesome
A. ~Vell, I hardly believe tl~at tlie ai~jilteration that is put iii to sugar
would mike it unfit.  This was dirk, dirty, ajid danip.  I would no~ say
it was unwholesome, but I would think that iio civilizeil being wonl~[
want to use it.  I could not S'i~ there was an
but could detect no sand in it.        y saud in it.  I felt it,
~L~ ~\~hat about the coffee'?
A. I aiii satisfied, sir, that tiie cofibe C'~i)u0t be j)urchase~l iii any i)iarket.  I remarked at the t~iie, and it is still my opinion, that it is the
Screeiiiiigs of i~io coffee; and I thiiik it was purchased specially for this
market. The samples I saw in the lodges were coml)osed of imperfect
grains and wilted graiiis and dark-colored grains.  In the coffee which
we get here for the Army there are some imperfect gr~ills, but there
seemed to be no perfect grains in all the coffee I examiiied.
~?` Can you form aiiy estimate of the quantity you exaiiiined?
A. I suppose it was at least from 5~ to 75 I)ounds the total of the different packages.
Q. About how niuch should you suppose was the greatest quantity
You saw in any olie package?
A. About four l)oui)(ls, iii a squaw.man's lodge.  fle told me there
were about four l)ouL~ds when he received it, biit he had used it once or
twice.
Q. Did you ever examine any of the flour which was issued?
~. No, sir; I (lid not.
(~.Did you hear any coniplaiiits about the flour there at that tii)ie?
A. I did, at my tent, where the first iliterview with Professor ~l'irsh
was held. The Indians ~~ere couii)lainiiig in a gelieril w;iy of the iloni'.
I asked I~ed Dog why he did not bi-ing us a sami)le, btit I have forgot
tcii ~h'it his reply was.
~?- Did you examine the tobacco they were issuiiig
A. Yes, sir.
~? ~\~h('it was the appearance of that?
A. ~Iy remark`tbOilt the cofibe will also a~)~~ly to tlie tobacco.  ThI~ol)ii)iou is that it was pilt lij) exl}ressly for thilt n;irket.  It was full of
scius and coarse le;ives, aiid uiauuflictiii'e~l with molasses or S~)I1)e other
sticky substance, which iiiide it so moist that yoii could liot s~oke it
~`hich is the only N'~~ tli.it tlie Inili'ins ise tobacco.
(~.Di~l you CX(.iiii!)ie any other sample of tobacco, besides that which
~`iS give!) to [~rof~ssor ~I'iI'Sh?
A. I did, sir. 
512
~?T)id it ~I)pca1' ~O )()`ibont thc ~aII0e qullity?
~~c~. sir.
~? ~~ou c~iisider thit tobacco iittcrly unfit tor sinokii0g
~.N~cs. sir, or tor aiiy otlicr n~c.
~? You saw. Oil oiic (~~c~5~~)1I, s()Jnc scvcli lie'i(~ of cattle, which yon
~t('ItC ~(`l5 tlie rellililIli' of a hcu~i thit`Y('i5 sliowit vou bv Re~l CIou(I
.~ 1)('~V~11~ l~een issuc{1 t() hi~ icoi)le by t1i~ agelit.  ~~)id yon n~enn by
that that tl~o~e 5(~VCll cittle h('I(l bccn is~ned to tlie In~~iiaiis by the
l~(~11t. or tl~it they wcrc tlic rclii'11105 of a herd which liad l~een issued?
~.~Vcl} our uii(~ur~t~l1(~iI1~'`vi that tiicy were the cattle which had
b~~ii i'~~ci~~c~l l~y tlic a~ciit but wcre in excess of tlie issue and re1i~'~itictl with the`igt~lit to he i~~ued with the llCXt issue.  I was SO illforiiie 1.
~? Then they liad not been i.~sued to the Indians by the agelit when
saw theni?~
yo1i~ No, sir  but they were issued as we returi~ed fro~n Spotted Tail.
1 ~`i5 there when thuy were issiictl.  I reco~iiiz~d three or four of then,
l~nt in tlio h~iri'y aiid coiifusion of tl~e issue I could iiot see tiieni all.  I
i't~co&iii7ed thice for CCi't('i~1i l~ut ~in not certain of four.  I saw other
C('ittl~ i~sued to the Iiidiaiis also
~? lIow did they conipare with the seven head?
~.I think the sevei0 head were fully up to tlie average of ti~e herd
wlii~~h I s;i'v issiie(l.  I should explain to tile cou)uiissioll that the estilll(itC which we made there of tlie wei~ht of the cattle was aii estimate
of their net weight. But ~Ir. Ray thought we were estimating on the
gr(~~s weigl~t, an(t his ti~nres were not changed, 1~ecause we th~~uglit the
iiiitter n~ight be i~iquired iii to aiid it would iiot look well to cli an ge
tlie figures.  For this reasoil tlie average net weight was iiicreased
about ~O pounds, I think  and therefore, this average we made of 35&
pounds was the net weight, and not the gross weight.
~? How ma0ly cattle did you see issued
~.I could liot give the number, but an employ&' tOl(l nie that they
weic issuing ~~57), but they were driven out so rapidly I could not see
then~ issue~l.  I did ~iot wish to appear to be interested iiiuch iii Dr.
Savilles affairs.  I just happened to come along. aiid saw thei~.  I
thought the I)octor (lid 100t like to have Army officers arouiid. The issue
was oli the 14th of November.
(? Tlie cattle that yon saw issued that day, I niiderstand yoli to say
tll<'it these seven head of cattle would be a fi~ir a~'erage of the whole of
them?
~.Ye~, sir I should consi~ler them so.  They were very poor.
(~. ~Vere they cliietiy steers or cows
A.I should thiiik tli(')t they were evenly mixed, heifers and steers, but
that is a matter of oness-woik.  Some of the cattle were ex~~eedingly
yo~ii0g: maily of them one year oltl. aiid I di&1 not think aiiy of the
heifers I iioticed were over two years old.
~t~ Did there remain some cattle thit were not issued with the herd ~
A.Yes sii'  very few CilIt or teii head, probably.
(). ()f those seven hea~l of cattle wl~ich you noticed particulafly, and
~`hich you u~ention ill this &ertificate do you renicinber what kind of
cittle they were  steer~, cows or yeadiiigs
A.There were two yearlings, th'~t is, they were then about one and
oiie-half years old, aud there was one two aiid a half years old, and the
rest were from four to five years old.
Q.flow long have you been here?
k I have been here s~iice the war about one year.  Before the war 
513
I served some time here.  Before tiie war there wer~ but very few cattie grazed here, and that was only a few for the use of emignints.
Q. Theii I nnden~tand th3t you have been ul) in this country north of
the Union Pacific Paliroaci, thi.~ last time about a year?
A. Yes, sir: at this post.  All my service since 1S6(3 has l~eeu along
tlie line of the road.
Q. Theii of your observation of the cattle in this section of the coulitry,
are they not usually in good order at this time of tlie year?
A. Yes, sir except those which are 4riveu from Texas that year; but
cattle that have reinaine~l here over the season are generally in good
order in November.  Of course 50111C of them  are poor, but the great
bulk of them  are in good order.
(~.~)id you ever see the henis of cattle desigiied for the Indiai~
agei~cies, before or after they "-ere driveii to the agei)eies, CXCC1)t those
which you have meiitioi~ed?
A. No. sir: I have not.
~?- I1av~ y~u had experielice which would enable you to judge of the
averaue weio'ljt of Texas cattle?
A. Yes, sir I have dealt iii them, and in iny ofh~'ial pOsitiOl) have
liad oceasion to weigh them, an~l I could form a l)retty good idea of
their weight.
(~.I wish you would give us your general aver;ige ()f these Texas
cattle?
A. ~~~ell, without kiiowing tlie ages of the cattle which these people
are required to fnriiisli I could Ii()t  ive tlie average  l~ut if you will
give me the age of the cattle they ar~ required to furnish, I could give
a J)retty good estin~ate.
Q. ~Vell, say they were steers four years old and upward?
A. Iii Noveiiiber, cattle which have not beeii driven that year should
weigh about i,1U0 l)ouuds gross, aii~t should dress about b'75 pounds.
~Vc allow in tlie service, on cattle that weigh 1,00(3 pounds 50 i~er cent.,
(that is, they will net oiie-lial f) aiid c.~ttlc over I,4()O I)ouiids we allow
~(3 l)er cent.
(~.~Vhat is tlie average weight of Texas cows?
A. A cow ibur years old aiid ui)ward would not average, perhaps,
over ~50 i)oniids.
(~.Now, c~(ptain, you have seen a good many herds of Texas cattle in
this country as they come flom Texas?
A. Yes, sir.
~?- ~\~ell, take these herds generally, aiid what will they average all
i~ouiid, grown cattle?
A. ~Vell, when they reich here they are poor,butcattlebroughthere ill
the spring woul~l average in tlie flill about 15 per cent. below the other
iverage.  They are iiot fit for use wheii they first come, but they would
avcrage from (S50 to 1.100 pouiids.
(?- In tite licrds that you have seen in this country, did you notice
that there "`ere unity yearlings atid two-year-old heifers among them?
A. No, sir it is not custon~ary to britig that class of aninials.
(~.~Vtiat is the character of the n0aj~)iity of tite cattle which con~pose
the herds they britig front Texas?
A. I thitik they are about halt' steersatid half cows; by steers, I mean
three years old atid ul)war9.
t?- About what I)roI)ortton of tltrcc.year-old steers are there in the
lici'tls
A. A bout 15 or 20 I)eI' ccitt. of the witole herd, as they come along.
Soitte tlrive cittirely cows for stock-raisitig Iturlioses. an~l some drive en
~~3 I F 
514
tireJy steers for work-cattl~ ai~d for beef.  Ti~ere are three objects for
brioging cattle here: one is for 5tO~k~~J~5~~~ one is for beef, and one is
for work-cattle.
Q. Y\7hat about the herds that are brought especially for beef )~
A. They are pnncipally steers, four ye~rs old and upward, with
some cows mixed up with them. Drovers ha~-e three objects in purchasing Texas cattle: 1st, for stock.raisil4g. and for which they purchase
prii~cipally cows; 2d, fof work-catUe, principally steers, three years old
and upward; 3d, for beef, which are steers, four years old and up.
ward.
Q. What would b~ your aveI-age of the four-year-old steers sent here
for beef?
A. Well, when they are sent for beef, they should weigh 1,100 pounds
and upward.
Q. Now, captain, do they drive herds of Texas cattle up here in the
fall?
A. No, sir, seldom in the fall; they generally bring them up here in
the spflng; they generally get here about the 1st of August.
Q. Do you know whether tlie men who breed cattle in Texas for sale,
or who drive them  up into this country for sale, desire to dispose of
yearlings and tw o.year-olds
A. I do not, sir; my expelience is that they do not wish to sell oue
and two year olds, but they prefer to keep them, because it costs nothing
to keep them until they are four years old.  There are a great many of
that clas~ of cattle in this country, which are raised here, and my observatioi~ is, that you can buy a three-year-old as cheap as you can a
two-year. old, the reason l~eing that they can keep it another year at no
expense.
Q. You have read this pamphlet of Professor ~Iarsh?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is there any other information that you can give us in reference to
any other matters contained in these charges of Professor Marsh's, about
which we have not inquired?
A. No, sir, I think not.  In regard to that issue of annuity-goods, I
was not present.  I believe you have covered everything in your question 5.
Q. Are there any other frauds or ins{ances of mismanagement on the
part of any Indian agent, or contractor for supplies or transportation,
about which you can give us any information, or are there any other
persons to whom you can refer us for information?
A.`I visited Red Cloud agency, at the request of some Indians with
whom I was acquainted, on the 16th of July, 1874, and at that time no
sugar or coffee had been issued for forty days, and there had not been
an issue of beef lor some time before, until the date of niy arrival there.
Q. Did you learn anything of the cause of the failure to issue the
supplies?
A. They had no supplies on hand, I was informed.  As I returned
here, I met a train with sugar ai~d coffee on it for the agency.
By Mr. FAU'LKN1;R:
Q. Lieutenant, I would like to inquire of you, what caused you to
make that suggestion to Professor Marsh which you did, in getting Red
Cloud to procure for the Professor those samples of coffee, sugar, and
tobacco?
A. It was in consequence of the Indians' complaint of the qual.
ity of those articles  which they were using.   The complaint, as 
515
made by the Indians, was that the supplies issued were insufficient ill
quantity and of an inferior quality.  Red Cloud told me that he believed
his people were dying from eafing the pork but that I did not see, and
consequently I knew iiothing of the quantity or quality of tlie pork issued.
Q.Are you satisfied that in the examination of thase saniples which
you made in the tepees, that they were presented to you under circumstances that satisfied your mind, at least, that they were fair samples of
the ratioiis which had been issued to them by tlie agent?
A.Yes, sir; I am satisfied that they were presented under such circumstances.  I went to tepees, where I was not expected, and got those
saniples from tlie sacks as they were delivered from the agency. This
was in November at the time Professor ~Iarsh was up there with General Bradley.
Q.You said that upon your return from Spotted Tail agency,
there was aii issue of beef?
A.Yes, sir; it was on the 14th of November, I think.  I am not quite
certain of tlie date, because we spent one or two days there.
Q.~Vas Professor ~Iarsh there at the time?
A.I think he was there, but I did not meet him.
Q.Are you satisfied that these seven cattle which have been the sub.
ject of inqniry were included in the general ~sne of cattle that took place
on the 14th of November, 1874?
A.I know that three or four of them were, bnt the others I know
nothing about.
By the CII AiRMAN:
Q.These three or four cattle that you speak of, did you see them
turtied out to the Iiidians and killed?
A.I did not see them killed, but recogiiized them in the general herd.
By Mr. llARRiS:
(? ~~here were they when you saw them?
A.They were at tl~e herder's camp, a few miles above tl~e agency.
Q.I)o you feel willing to swear that you saw three or four cattle issued
from the corral which you had seen at the herd?
A.I could swear that three or four that I had seen at the herd were
the same that were issued from the corral.
Q.N\~hat kind of weather was it when they were issued?
A.It was snowing, and very cold.
Q.~Vere the cattle ~-on speak of being weighed oli the day you saw
them?
A.Red Cloud asked us to go and see the cattle, and report to the
Great Father about them.  It would be too troublesome for us to go to
the scales that day.  The cattle were lost on the prairie, and they were
driven up by the herders for us to examine.
Q.I want to know-this is but siiiiple justice to everybody-what
means ofjudging you had that the seven hea~l would average 350 ponuds.
llow far did you examine the herd, and how well qualified are you to
veiiture that opinion?
A.N\?ell, it was a casual observation.
Q.Did you kiiow that the cattle had been driven up from the Niobrar;t through a very severe snow-storm?
A.I knew nothing about the cattle being driveii froiii tlie Niobrara
and (lid not judge or them iii that respect.
Q.You say all the coffee was of shriveled, aiid broken, aiid unsound
kerue's? 
516
A.No, ~ir.  I say in all, ~5 poni ds I examiiied between 12 and 20
pounds. I (lid not see any sound Ol go'od coffee.  Professor i~Iarsh did
not t'~ke over two or three tablespoo~s(nl.
Q.Did you examine the other san~ples which you speak of?
A.No, sir.
Q.In the cattle driven here to tlie military post, which do you have
the most of, cows or steers?
A.~~holly steers.  The contract compels them to be all steers.  I do
not know the average weight of the steers driveli here.
Q.You suggest that sand is the means of a~lulterating sugar.  Should
you judge that it would pay aiiy one to ad~tlterate that quality of sugar?
A.I don~t know, sir.
Q.Do you n~eau to go on record as saying that the sugar was filthy
and uiint for use?
A.Ye~, sir, I do.  I did not taste the sngar; I felt it with ii)y hand,
aiid kiiow that there was sand iii it.
Q.NYhat was the indnceme'~t offered by Professor ~Iarsh, or rather
what inducement led Professor ~larsh to hear this story conceriling
these tliiiigs?
A.~Yell, he told iie that he`vas a friend of Commissioner Smith, aiid
the Con~missioner told liin~ to i~otice anything while he was out among
the Ii~~liaiis, and to inform  him if anything was wrong.  I thiiik Professor ~l~'irsh's idea was, that by showing an interest in these things, it
would ficilitate his work up in tlie bone-field.  That is, however, a matter of opinion with me only.  Red Cloud came to me first and wanted
to see C~eneral Bradley, but Ge'~eral Bradley said it was none of his
business, aiid he would not see him. Red Cloud brought a small quantity of sugar aiid ot)e plug of tobacco.  I saw sami)les like those which
Re&l Cloud had, in the hands of other Indians, and they ap~~eared to be
of the same quality of rations.
By Mr. ATHERON:
Q.You spoke of the Indians not having sugar and coffee for forty
days. Ilow did you ascertain that?
A.I was told so by thirty or forty Indians.  I was also told by officers
at the post that unless s~ipplies were brought soon they were afraid
of trouble.  I employed no means of verifying it, except by different
ones whoiii I met duriiig the day, and they all made the same answer.
I think that some officers at the post told me that it was forty days.  I
(lid not visit the agency, and did not get this information fi-om any of
the cin ploy es at the agency, lor I was not there.
By Mr. llA~Ris:
Q.You 5i~d that you did not go there, or (lid iiot feel willing, because
you thought that Dr. Siville di(t not like to have Army officers arouiid.
llow did you obtain this ii~forniation?
A.It wis frota the officers aiid my own supposition.  I have had no
altercatioii with Dr. Saville.  I have beeii introduced to hiiu once or
twice.
Q.Is it the general imj)ression at the post that Dr. Saville is not
friendly to tlie Army otiicer~
A.Yes, sir  thit is u)y ol)inioti, aiid the opil~ioii of others I have conversed with. 
5i7
TESTIMONY OF MAJOli~ A. S. BURT.
By the CHAiR~tAN:
Qnestion. You belong to tlie Ninth Infantry, I believe?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Q. ~1~~or, were you present at tlie issue of cattle by tl~e Indian ageilt
at hed Cloud agency on the 14th of November last?
k I don't know the date, sir; but [ was present at an issue of cattIe by Dr. Saville in November last.  Professor ~Iarsh was with tue.
lie rode down there with me.
Q. There is a certifleate made by you, in which you state that fl~e
cattle you saw at that time were Texas cattle, miserably poor, some of
theni so weak the Indians could not goad tl~em out of a walk, and the
ca~le were, as a rule, small in size.
A. Yes, sir; I remember such a cirtificate as that.
Q. Can you form any estimate of the number of cattle in the herd?
A. No, sir.  The corral was flill; there was barely room for a man to
go round and drive them out when they issued them.  I don't know how
many, but enough to make an issue at that agency.  I don't know anything about the number so as to fix my mind.  I was not there as an
investigating committee, but simply went with Professor ~1arsh to see
the issue, as to how it was done.  I did not fix in my mind any number,
but remember the condition ~f the cattle was poor.
Q. ~That do you mean by sayitig that they were in miserable condi
ti0!i?
A. I mean that they were walking skin and bones. This observation
applies to them getierally. I could not say that every one was skin and
bones; but my general observation of the cattle was that they were
mere skin and bones; that is, very poor.
Q. Do you remember whether the majority were steers, or cows?
A. No, ~r; I could not tell whether they were or not.
Q. You spoke of some of them being so weak that the Indians could
not run them.  About how many did you observe in that condition?
A. I could not say; but that fact impressed itself upon my mind, because, as you remember, the Indians slaughter most of their cattle on
the ground, and they drive them out; and in order to get them to run
they would start them with their goads; and in several cases they could
not make the cattle go out of a walk, and the impression on my mind
was that it was because they were so poor.  I could not say how many
cases of this kind there were.  I could not fix any number.
Q. Do you know how far these cattle had been driven the day before
the issue?
A. No, sir; I don't know anything about these cattle, except that I
went there with Professor Marsh, sim~~ly to see them. I did not know
how long they had been without food and water.  The weather was not
very severe; that is, if you meaii for the cattle. There was 110 snow on
the ground that day. There might have been snow in the gullies.
(~.Had it not been snowing or raining for one or two days before
A. It could not have been bad weather, or I would have noticed it, a~ I
was in tents.  I did iiot see these cattle weighed  I doii't know whether
they were weighed; I noticed no scales at the corral for weighitig c~ttle.
Q. Are you able to form aiiy estimate of the average weight of tLe
cattle you saw there that day?
A. No, sir; I cannot. Nobody caii do that unless he weighed the 
518
cattle; I did not do that.  I might make a guess like anybody else
would do if they did not weigh them, but it would be onJy aii approximation.
Q. Were those cattle, or any uumber of them, smaller thai Texas cattle usally are ~
A. Yes, sir; they were small-sized Texas cattle.
Q. Did you notice in any yearli9gs among them ~
A. I am not able to tell that, sir.
Q. Did you hear any conversation between Mr. Bosler and Professor
Marsh in reference to the condition of the catttle?
WITNESS. Who is Mr. Bosler ~
The CHAIRMAN. ~Ir. Bosler is the contractor for furiiishing beef.
WITNESS. No, sir; not that I remember.  A Mr. Bosler, a young fellow, came to me one day after General Bradley aiid Professor Marsh
had been to see some cattle which had been complained about, and said
that be knew all about this thing of cattle, and said if he had know ii
about it he would have bad some better cattle for them to inspect.
Q. Is that the only herd of cattle which you ever saw issued to the
Indians at Red Cloud agency ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen the herd of cattle held by the agelit for issue
to the Indians?
A. No, sir; I have not.
Q. Have you ever seen the herds that the contractor had for delivery
zo the Indian agent?
A. No, ~ir; I have never had occasion to inspect or look at them.  I
have never come in contact with the agent or contractor.
Q. Have you observed frequent herds of Texas cattle in this country?
A. Yes, sir; I have seen a good deal of Texas cattle.
Q. How did the cattle that you saw issued on that occasion compare
with the ordinary herds of Texas cattle in this country?
A. Oh, very inferior; they were simply a bad lot of cattle, poor and
unfit for use.  If they were given to me to issue to my company, I would
not accept such cattle. They were not beef at all.
Q. Then do you say that among all the herds of Texas cattle that you
have seen in this country this was the poorest lot that you ever saw ~
A. Well, it was certainly as poor a lot as I ever saw.
Q. ~f~0r, have you read these charges of Professor Marsh's pamphlet?
A. Portions of it only.  I glaiiced over it last night.
Q. You know the object of the inquiries of this commission.  Are there
any other matters about whicl~ you can give us information besides these
about which I have inquired of you
& Well, I have heard complaints by Iiidians. That is about all.
Wheii I was at Red Cloud agency with Professor ~~arsh, I was not there
to inquire iii to irregularities, or I might have iiiquired more into these
things. The complaints of the Iiidians were about the quantity aiid
quality of their rations and about their ageiit.  Rib, an In~lian, spoke
about the personal character of their agent.
Q. N\~hat did he say about his agent ~
A. He complained, in the first plice, of the waiit of brains on the part of
the agent, or, to use his owi~ meaning, he said his forehead was small,
and that he WiS not aii honest ~1~ because he would not look right at
you in the eye.  And he weiit on to say in regard to tlie issue of annuity
goods to the Indians-I doii't remember what he said now.  Sometimes
Indians are not reliable.  I have kiiown a few whose word was as good
as any white man's, but Rib I did iiot kiiow, and would not vouch for 
519
his reliability.  ~Vhite Tail complained to me out in the Bad Lands, after
we got there with the Professor, about the issue, in a manner that I
shonidjudge to be true.  lle was sitting in my tent, and I gave him some
crackers, and he gave them to his children; he had two or three with him.
I sent and got some more, and he put them into his blanket.  I asked him
why he did not eat them himsAf, and he said that he wanted to take
them to his squaw as she was hungry, and was not getting sufficient
ration~. I noticed his blanket as being an old one.  I asked him the
reason wliy he was wearing an old blaiiket~riglit after the issue, and he
said that he bad given all that had been given him to his young men
and people; that there was not enough to go around.  lle spoke in a
ma~iner which impressed me that he was telling the truth. That is
about iii substance all that I know.  The Indians' complaints were so
many, that I do not remember half of them.  These things are not mv
business, and I did not pay much attentioii to them.  Professor ~iarsh
at that time was hunting these things out, 50 that he could do the Iii.
dians some good through hi~ acquaintaiice with Commissioner Smith.
N\~at lie was doing was for the benefit of the Indians; and he wanted
to advise the Interior Department of irregularities of which they were
not aw~re.  That is my impression, from the general remarks of the
Professor.
By MriDllARRIS:
Q. You ~nferred that, if it were true that there were not enough goods
to go aroniod, as the Indiaiis said, there was fraud or soiiie wrong done
the Indians?
A. That was not exactly my inference.  ~Iy conversation with Pro.
fessor ~[arsh was general, and I didii't know his opinions.
Q. N\~hen ~Vhite Tail told you he was hungry, nnd there were not
enough goods to go around, what were your inferences?
A. ~~ell, the inference that I drew was, that there had been enough
goods to go around, but as to whose fitult it w~s I had no iiiference.
Q. The question was i~ot raised as to whether the (xoveriiinent fior
nislied enough or whether the deficiency was merely a wrong on the
part of the agent?
A. Not as I remember, sir.  I was paying more att~ntion to the bones
than to the irregularities at i~e~l Cloud.  I have iiever seen aiiy other
herds of cattle than those is~ued at the P~ed Cloud agelicy. I have
had no other experieiice tloaii that which aii Army officer caii have at a
military I)ost.  I must say thqt I could not tell a yc'irling from a twoyear-old steer or cow, as a cj'ttle-maii caii do.  These cattle were snoall
in size, but I could not say how old they were.
By Mr. FA~LKNLR:
~? Could you ventuic ui~on some apl)roximatioii as to what you regarded the weight of those cattle you ~`tw
k \Vell, it wonld be nierely ati approximation, as any one would
say.
Q. The expression, to say that they were small cattle, is a very indefinite one, and I ~hould ~le~ire you to give soioie e~tiinate of what is your
)iidgnieiit?                            lit           1- ~ll
A. They wonld probably average seveio or ci   hniodred poun~~
around.  I have never ~~eighed cattle, an~t have oiily aii idea from the
cue il conversatioii ai~oiig tlie l)eol~le here.
By ThIr. llARRIS:
~?- Tike a good f0~~~~'~~r~Old Texas steer, which lias l~c~n here since
July or An~ust, aiid what should it weigl~, iii or~lii~ary flc~h and size? 
520
A.~Vell, it o~ght to net fro~n 550 to 600 ponnds, if it was in good
order.
Q.Then you ay those that you saw were so ii~ferior that they woul~l
not go more thaii 400 pounds net?
A.About that  from three to four hnn~lred ~~oui)ds.
Q.Now, supp~'se it was given you as a fact that those cattle had been
for three days on the road without food or water, through two nights of
storm, what would you say would be tite result with such cattle?
A.No, sir: I could not answer that at all.  I should iiot judge that
their condition was caused by two days' storii~ ol' wet weather.
Q.Then you say of those cattle which tlie Indians could not drive
out of a walk- that it was because they were poor in flesh and weak?
A.Yes, sir.
By Mr. ATllERTON:
Q.Did you have any conversation with ~Ir. Bosler respecting the
cattle you saw issued?
A.No, sir; a ~Ir. B osler spoke to me in regard to some cattle which
General Bradley looked at at the investigation of I~ed Cloud, but not
in regard to the herd wbich was in the corral.
Q.Do you remember what you said to Bosler that day?
A.I don't remember any conversation about cattle.  There was a ~1r.
French who spoke to me about cattle, but Mr. Bosler di~~not.
Q.Did you recognize this young man, Bosler, or know him as beiiig
in charge of the herd?
A.He gave me to understand that he was the beef-contractor, and
that was his general repute. I supposed that he was the contractor. I
did not know that any other person was interested until a conversation
with Captain Spaulding, coming down from the Black Hills, and he
spoke of this young Bosler being the brother of a Mr. Bosler living in
Carlisle, Pa.; but, if I recollect this young man, be was, as I thought, the
contractor.  I recollect having no conversation in regard to the condi.
tion of the herd of cattle which liad attracted my attention.  If I had
expected to come before the investigating coiiimi~tee I would have tried
to recollect these things.
Q.Have you any recollection of any one making a faulty excuse about
the condition of the herd to any body; before you iiiquired of any
one?
A.\Vell, I caiinot remeinbcr ai)y particular conversatioli.  It is very
likely that a conversation could occur and I would not recollect it.  I
remember Bosler coniplaiiiing to me in aii excited toiie of voice that lie
knew all about this thing; refe rriiig to Geiieral Bn~dley and other'
officers going off to look at the herd.  And lie sl)oke iii geiieral terms
about sick cattle and others, and said why did they not come to him,
and not go to the Iiidians.
By Mr. HA~RI5:
Q.~Vhat did occur, exactly, between ~ou and that ~rr. Bosler?
A.He said that if he liad known that they were coniing to inspect the
cattle lie ~~onld have had some better cattle for them to see, and he coinplaiiied in an excited nianner about those who ha~l been exaniining the
cattle.  N\~liat his exact words were I cannot say.  I ~`i1~ as anxious as
you are to tell what I know, but I caiinot remember wh~'~t his exact words
were.
Q.Did he coiiil~Iain that those cattle weie iiot fair saml~les of tlie cat.
tle which were delivered  that it was iiot f~tir to go and examine sick
cattle; aiid if he lad kiowa that they were to examiiie tie cattle he 
521
would have driven up some cattle for them to examine, such cattle as
they were issuing~
A. lle might have said that; ncc'ordiiig to lily recollection be said
tliat i~ was not fair to uo and see sick, and lame cattle, and make them
stand as an avera~e of the whole herd.  I do not reiiiember exactly; he
inay have said that.
(~.Did he give you to understaiid that those were iiot sucl~ cattle as
they were issuing to the Indians?
A. lle may ii ave said so, but I do not know that lie did. I suppose that
he thought they were making aii investigation of liis cattle, aiid lie was
excited because they did not let him know about it.  I can only infer
that such was liis reniark.  I have only an inference that lie might have
charged that; I should think it very likely that lie would.  I was there
simply to write up the bone-field, and paid little attentioli to ~~r. Bosler
or to Mr. Saville.
CHEYENNE, N\~. T., Mond~y, August 23, 1875.
Present:llon. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairmaii; 11oii. B. W. llARRIS,
Hon. CHARLES J. FAULKNER, Prof. GEORGE W. ATHERTON, and Hon.
T~MOTHY 0. HOWE.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES F. ELL~SON.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. Mr. Ellison, please state your place of residence aiid busitiess.
Answer. My residence is Marcus, Texas.  I am engaged in the stock
business and farming.
Q. How long have you been engaged in driving cattle up to this
market?
A. I have been engaged every year since 1869.
Q. Did you drive cattle up here this season?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. About how many?
A. ~%ll, sir, there was a co~nbination this year.  Four of us drove
sixty thousand.  There were two firms in this combination-Mabry
& Millett, and Ellison & Dewese.  The two firms drove up about sixty
thousand.
(~.Did you drive cattle last year?
A. Yes sir; I drove cattle last year.
Q. Did you sell Mr. Bosler cattle last year?
A. Yes, sir; I sold cattle to Mr. Bosler last year.  I sold him about
seven thousand head last year.  They were for the Indian contract.  I
delivered part of them on the Platte and part of them  on the Missouri
River for tlie Indian contract.  They were Texas cattle-cows and
beeves, mostly beeves.  By beeves I meaii four years old and upward.
Aiiything under that would be coiisidered stock-cattle in the beef-niarket.
Q. About what time in the season was it that you delivered those
cattle?
A. ~~dl, sir, as well as I cai~ remember, we delivered the cattle on
tlie Platte about the 17th of Augtist, and the others a few days later.
Q. ~Vere those cattle iii usually good order-good order as cattle
generally are at that season oii this range?
A. Yes, sir.  They were good cattle aiid in good flesh for the time of
the year. 
52'2
Q. Between that time and the middle )f November would those cattle
increase in flesh or fall away?
A. They would increase.  They were l~ut upon as fliie a range as one
could look at.  They would i~nj)rove until the storms commenced in the
winter.
Q. Do you recollect the pro[)ortion you delivered on the Platte?
A. I delivered about eighteen hundred beeves on the Missouri River.
I delivered no cows.  I delivered fifty-two hun~lred on the Platte, twelve
hundred of which were cows, and the others were four-year-old steers,
and upward.
Q. Have you had such experielice iti the weigliiiig of beef-cattle oil
the hoof as to be able to tell, with something like accuracy, what would
be about the average weight of cattle?
A. ~Vhen a inan gives the weight of cattle it is guess-work.  I have
seen a good many cattle weighed, and I would estimate those cattle
which I delivered to ~Ir. Bosler last year froiti 950 to 1,050 pounds,
making a full average of 1,000 pounds.
Q. Are you interested in tlie contract which Mr. Mabry took for supplying tlie Govertiment with beef-cattle at this agency?
A. \\~ell, if we bad retained the cotitract, I guess I would have beeti,
but the contract was not retained, and I don't know anything about it.
I have 100 interest in it.  The cattle which we turn in for ~1r. Bosler he
pays us for, and we ii ave no interest iii the contract whatever.  The
firm has oio interest whatever.
Q. About what did you get, on aii average, for the cattle which you
sold this year?
A. N\~ell, I can aiiswer that questioti very easily.  N\re got $t2 for
cows and $20 for beeves.  ~Vhen I say "we," I mean tlie firms of Mabry
and Dewese.
By Mr. FAVLKNER:
Q. N\~hat would those cows average do you suppose?
A. N\~ell, sir, I don't know how they weigh them there.  There is a
difference iii weighing cattle.  Some itoen lot catfle before they weigh
them, but I understand these are tnriie~l iii otI the grass, and they wilt
weigh 900 pouiids  thit is, the Co`vs would weigh that iiiucli.
Q. That itoust make tl~e purchase of cows very valuable to acotitractor?
A. Yes, sir  but I coiosi~ler cows as good beef as steers. I guess that
is where the money comes frono, but the CO\VS generally get flttter than
the steers wl~en they are brought up here in the spritig.
Q. 11 ave you ai)y idea of tite proportioli of cows and steers there is
iii an ordi.;iary herd?
A. There is about otie-fourtli cows.  NVe don't waiot to dnve that
no any, but we frequently have to do it.  They will not average iil OlC
than one-fourth.  Mabry anti myself, and the other firms, have sold to
Bosler twenty-four thonsatid cattle this year.
Q. ~Vhat did you receive last year for your cattle?
A. ~Ve receive~t last year eleveti dollars for cows and eighteen dollars
for steer~~, and twelve and twenty dollars this year.
By Mr. ATIlERTON:
Q. \Vere twelve and twenty the prevailing market-rates when you made
the contract with ~1r. Bosler?
A. There were no prevailing rates  no sales had been made.
By Mr. HARP IS:
Q. You made ati advance on last year's prices 
523
A. Yes, sir; we got better price~ this year.  The price of cattle has
advanced in Texas, and has advaiiced wonderfully here.  We have lost
money by contracting in cattle here.
By Mr. ATll~RTON:
Q. What is the present market.price for different grades?
A. Well, I don't know hardly what we could sell them for. We could
sell young cattle for $15 a head more than we contracted for. Recently
there has been a sale of several thousand on the Platte at an advance.
By the CllAiRMAN:
Q. These cattle yon delivered to Bosler were contracted for i!i New
York?
A. Yes, sir. ~1r. Bosler advanced us $30.Ot)O ou that contract. ~rheil
we made the coiitract I did not know anything abont it. Mabry said
he had, aiid we got $3O,OO(); he advanced that on accouiit of the cat
tIe.  We got nothing as a bonus oil the contract.
By ~Ir. llARRIS:
Q. Was there any agreement that yon should ii ave a part of tlie
profits ~
A. No, sir; none at all.  Nothing only pay for our cattle.
By Mr. ATIlERTON:
Q. At the time the contract was made was there any indication that
cattle would advance beyon~t that of last year's
A. Yes, sir; it was known that there was a scarcity of cattle on the
way to this country. The cattle were generally on the way at that time,
and we kiiew how in any there were; we could count up to five thousand
how many there were at thaCtiiiie.
By Mr. FAULKNL'R:    -
Q. Can yon assign any reasoii for this growing scarcity of cattle?
A. Well, it is owing to the Iriving to this coniltry, aiid the growin~
scarcity of cattle in Texas.  The pro~luction is not e(inal to tlie demaitd.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Was not ~[r. Bosler's offer of tlie a~lvauce over last year's prices
un~!erstood to be as a consideration for your turiiiiig tlie coiitract over
to him?
A. 1 (ion't know that it was, because we had instructed ~[abry iiot
to take less than ~12 and $~().  We did not know wlio was C~ii1~ to ~Ct
the contract.  That was tlie lowest price we were willing to take wheii
he started off for New York.
By Mr. IlARRIS:
Q. In the cattle you sold Mr. L)o~ler were there not soiiie two-yearolds?
A. They were cows aiid beeves.  I never sold ally youi)g cattle to
him, because I had contracts for young cattle with other parties, aii~t
I never delivered him anythii~g but cows aiid beeves.
Q. What would be the difference in the weight, in yonr jndg~nent, of
a one-thousand-pound steer, whether he was weighed rigtit off gi-ass;iiid
water, or whether he was weighed without grass and water
A. I could iiot answer that question, becau~e I have iiever seeii it tested,
but I sbould think the difference would be fifty pounds.  It I`v~s going
to sell a steer, I would take hini ri~lit on. the gra~s.
(~.I~ow mnch do you suppose a thirsty ~teer )f tli;~t ~~-eigl~t will drii~k?
A. Well, tl1(~t`vonld l)C ~~le~~-'vork, l~nt I thiiil (~i tliii'~ty large steer 
524
woald drink fifteci or tweiity gallons of water  a l~orse would dnnk
eight or ten gallons.
Q. ~Yell is it desirable for cattle-dealers to s~ll their cattle right off
tl~e range~
A. ~~~ell, that is the w~y I WOUl(1 like to sell i~ine.
Q. YOll say tlie cattle you sold this year were cow~ aiid steers?
A. Yes, sir  all cows`tad steers  no young cattle. aiitl they will average fro~n 950 to 1.050 pontids oft' tlie ralige.
Q. Do you ki)ow anytliii)g`4bout the ct~i~tract for flour which ~Iartin
liatl ~
A. Not anytliiiig.
(~.Do you know anythii~g about tlie conversatioii which l)assed between ~fr. McCann and Mr. Martin?
A. I know ~othing about it.  I only know ~rr.;\Iartin wlten I see him.
By Mr. HOWE:
Q. Did I i~iidersta'~d you to say that you were iiiterested in the contract which Mr. M~'bry made with the Government?
A. ~~ell, I would have been interested if we had carried out the contract.  I had one~fourth ii~terest in case we furnished the cattle. I was
not presellt when tlie contract was made with Mr. Bosler.  I don't know
whether the contract with ~Ir. Mabry was put in writing.
Q. N\~l~at proportion of the cattle that you delivered to Bosler did
you say were cows this year?
A. N\~ell, I never answered that question at all.  I said that the numher which we drove was about one-fourth cows.
Q. Can you state what proportioii of those delivered to Bosler were
cows?
A. I cannot sny tltat; we have 1)Ot turned in all of this year's cattle yet.
Q. Have you any account by which you can determine?
A. Yes, sir; if I l~ad my bills of sales, I could soon determine the
number, but I cannot give the number unless I go to work and figure
up.`,Ve have not delivered everything yet.  N\~e have considerab[e
cattle which we have not yet delivered.  ~Ve will, when we get through,
have delivered about twenty-four thousand cattle to him.
Q. flow has your delivery been conducted; have you delivered so
many monthly?
A. No, sir.  ~~e deliver so many ii~ bulk.  ~Ye deliver as soon as we
can get the cattle on the ground where he receives them.  Some cattle
are late in gettilig up.  ~Ve conimenced the delivei-y about the 1st of
July, and have been delivering right along.  N\~e have delivered about
twenty-two or twenty-three thousand cattle.  ~Ve have just got two
bunches to deliver yet.  \Ye have been paid partly ft~r the cattle which
we have delivered.  Part has I)Ot been paid for.  ~Ye have been paid
already thirty or thirty-five thousand dollars.  Bosler aiid Mab~v are
settling up tO-d'ty ft~r the cattle which had been turned in.
Q. You have a genen~l idea of the amount now due frt~~n Bosler?
A. ~Vell, I coul~l come with iii ten or fifteen thousand dollars of it; I
could not tell exactly.  I guess he owed us two hundred and fifty thousand dollars.  I coul~l give an at)proximation of the`iuii~ber of cows
delivered, but niiless I kitew ~)retty well, I would I)Ot like t( say. ()ver
half of those cattle have been turned in on the Missouri River, aiid I
kitow nothing about them.
Q. These cattle you e~tiinate to weigh on the hoof 950 pounds, are
cows and steers together?
A. Yes, sir; they will average it.  They will average 1,000 pounds all
through, according to iny judguient. 
525
Q.If you bad delivered these cattle to the Goveriiment Uj)Ofl tiie
~Iabry contract, they would hov~ broiio'ht von how much?
A.N\~ell, sir, they would have broaght us coisiderably n~9rc th'~u we
are now getting.  I have never figured it, but they would have brought
us $24; that is, averaged at I,()()() pouiids.
By Mr. FAVLKNER:
Q.~Vhat was the inducement for you to scll these cattle at.~2O per
head, when by your contract with the Government you could get y~24.7O?
A.N\~ell, when we sold those cattle we got cash for them aiid if we
should have sold tl0C Governn~ent those cattle, we would have liad to wait
one year, atid deliver them twice a inoi~th, and the risk of keeping them
during the winter would overbilance the profit; but by selliiig the cattle
to Mr. Bosler we got our n)oiiey, aiid the work is over with the cattle,
and we inve~t that u~oney.  \N'e have now got it iiivested this fall, but
if we ha~l fille(l the coiitract it would have take'i u until next July to
fulfill it. That was our iiidiicemeiit.  C)ther~ise while we were filling
this contract we could iiot have beeii buying iii Texas. I ani satisfied
that by takiiig the contract we could have niade soiiie nioricy here, but
by selliiig the cattle and going back to Texas, we could make niore money,
arid make it easier, and with less ri~k.
By Mr. llOWE:
Q.N\~ould those cattle which yo11 sold to Mr. Bo~ler be likely to gain
in weight during the year to be consumed iii the delivery?
A.They will gain from now right aloi~g until tlie storms set iii for tlie
winter. If the winter is severe, they wilt lose some. They will gain
now ri~lit along until November or December; but if the winter is hard,
they wilt lose.
Q.N\~ould not that iii crease in their weight be a ~~retty material consideration or equivalent for the risk and expense of keeping them?
A.~Vell, I would think likely it wou~d, but a mari cannot run two kinds
of business at the same time; at least, I cannot run a business here and
a business in Texas; and just so thit I make a decent profit 011 these cattle, is all I want. I would not stay np here and take the risk for the probability of making a nice profit outside because I consider it a risk to
hold cattle here in this country, owing to snow arid the storms; it is a
i'isk to turn theni loose on tlie prairie iii winter-time.
By Mr. FAVLKNLR:
Q.N\~ould it be a fair question to ask you, ~Ir. Ellisoii, what you give
for these cattle in Texas?
A.Yes, sir; I thii0k it would. I iiever keel) anything back.  Cows
cost $7 and beeves $12 down there.  ~~e generally l)ay iii s~)ecie, aiid
there is a difference between 51)CCiC arid curielicy there of 10 per cent.,
which would make it about eight aii d thirteen dollars res~iectively for
cows and beeves in currency.
(~. Have you ever liad aiiy stateiuerit that would eria'~lc you to fi~rm
an estim~te of what is the aiiiiual ex~~ense of keepiiig these cattle north
of tlie Platte dnriiig the year of their beiiig delivered to the agency
and the Government?
k ~Vell, I have never fortiied aiiy estimate of that. Mr. Bosler keeps
cattle iii very large herds.  ~~~e cal drive cattle from  Texas for about
~~~r head, iii l;irge herds. Iii siiiall ier~ls it w()ul(l c~~st iiioie.  ~~~hen
we first coniinenced driving cattle fr()li' Texis, the exiieiise was double
arid even ~reble what it is iiow for each head, but Si lice theii tlie whole
thing has been systematized. 
526
TESTIMONY OF SETH MABRY.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Question. N\~here do you reside ~
Aiiswer. At Austin, Texas.
Q. State if you have been engaged in tlie business of dealing in cattle?
A. Yes, sir; that is the business I have been following here since
1871.  I have reference to the Platte aiid ~Iissouri I?iver district.  I
have been following that as a business si!)ce 18(3(J, and sill GC 1871 I have
made these poilits from the Kansas Pacific Railroad north points to disj)ose of them.  In 1871 we had been doing a partnership l~usiness. The
firm was named Mabry & Millett.  ~Ve disposed of ten thousand head
in 1872.  ~Ve handled about the same number in 1873; we handled not
quite so many, about eight thousand, this seasoii.  There are four of us
interested, ai~d we handle~l about sixty thousand altogether.
Q. State the kind of cattle thatyon have drivei~ up intO this country.
A. ~~ith the exception of last year, we  Ii ave handled only beeves
that is four-year-old steers and ul)ward.  Last season and this season
I handled whlt we call n~ixed cattle; that is, two grades, from one-year.
Olds up to beeves.  Tbe proportion of yearlings ilt a herd is owilig to the
wa~- they are gathered, aiid the way they are contracted for in Texas.
In five thousaijd cattle we would throw in a thousand, each, one-yearolds, two-year.ol~ls, and three.year-olds; a thousand cows and a thousand beeves.  That is the way we made our contracts in Texas with
Texas parties, although when we received them they would vary considerably.  The variation would be probably about one-fifth of each
grade of the five grades.  That is the way we contracted for our cattle
this seasoii.  ~Ve term the herds mixed herds that are not strictly beefcattle.
Q. Have you had sonie knowledge of the herds of cattle that have
been driven itI) iii to this couiitry during the last few years?
A. There have been very few herds that have bee ii brought out that
I have not knowii something about.  I made it a business, and I was
either on the sell or buy, and I have been strictly in that business, and
there have been but very few herds that would stop at the points where
I have been operating that I have nOt seel).  As a general thing I
made it a point to see them all; along the Platte River here has been
quite a i)oint where people brought their young cattle.  I have had no
trouble there yet; the stock-raisers in this country are anxious to buy
young cattle because the range is good, and stock-raising is a good
business.
Q. So that there have beeii a good iuany of these youl~g cattle driven
up here for the purpose of selliiig them  to cattle-dealers ~
A. Yes, sir; and ever since 1868 or 1~69 this point, and even west of
this point.
Q. In the herds of what you term beef-cattle, is it the case that there
are sonic yearlings and some two-year-olds?
A. No, sir; whenever we speak of beefcattle we nican four-year-old
cattle and upward.  There is frequently a herd of beeves in which
there would be a dozen three-year.olds, well-grown cattle.  There are
some instances where there would be half a dozen under age.  It is a
rare thing that any man could detect very soon from their size whether
they were three or four.year.olds.  N\~henever we speak of beef-cattle we
do not mean cows at all; we mean steers.
Q. I~ it a custom in trading off herds of that kind, if there run into 
527
the herd a ft~w yearlin~s, and cows with calves, and so on~is it the
custom that those yearlings are not counted at all ~
A.We hardly ever count them, unless there is a contract made for
that purpose.  If there were only a few there would be generally no
recLoning of them taken but if there were as many as forty or fifty
yearlings In a herd of a couple of thousaiid, they would be.  But I do
not think I ever saw a herd where they would be careless enough to let
so many in.  ~Iaybe in selling twenty or thirty thousand head the yearlings might amount to considerable, but in a smaller herd thQv would
cut theni out, or want something for them.  Iu all iny trade if I sell a
man beeves I only give him beeves.  Iii sortiiig a herd of four or five
thousand cattle that have been driven ~I) here from Texas there might
be twenty~five or thirty yearlings, but it would be more trouble to cut
them out than to let you have them.  This spring we had all mixed herds
but I sorted all my cattle after I got them to the Platte River and to the'
Arkansas.  I never handled any cows uiitil this season (excel)t a small
bunch for a ranch.)  This year is the first I have handle~t any ii~ixed cat.
tle. I have handled nothing but beef-cattle ibr sale.  The season for
bringing cattle here ends about the 1st of September.  Cattle that we
inten~l to winter here we generally try to get by or before the first of
September~the earlier the better.  The cattle generally come here
froin the 1st to the lOtli of July, and they generally get through in good
fleshy condition. This season and last season they came through in very
good condition.  If it should happen to be a bad seasoil they do not
look so well. This season and last season were both very fiiie seasons
for haiidling stock. Our cattle are iii good condition generally on the
1st of July, and they colitiline iii good condition until Christmas.  They
were in very good conditioii and would have doi~e to ship east before
the 1st of June, this year.
Q.Did your firm sell to bosler some cattle last seasoi~?
A.Yes, sir; we sold him, I think, about five or six thousa'id cattlethe lirm of ~Iabry & ~Iillett.  They were every oiie bee~-es but three
hundred, and I sold him three hundred cows.  Tl~ey were everyone
four-year-old cattle that I sold him last season.  I have been weighing
cattle ever since I have been here, pretty much every season.  Since
1866 I have been b~ying and selling cattle.  The weight of what we
term fresh cattle depends upon the way you weigh them.  Tlie rule in
buying here is to lot them for twelve liours before weighii~g them.
Then they would weigh considerably less than if weighed right off the
ranch.  If they were to be weighed that way I should estimate the cattle to weigh from nine hundred and fifty pounds to teii hundred and
fifty, just owing to where those cattle came froin in Texas.  When you
get west of tlie San Aiit~nio River, and go into tlie mountain region, tlie
cattle are very large~from nine hundred and fifty to ten hundred and
fifty, weighed right off the ranch.  I have no hesitancy in saying so, for
the reason that I filled those contracts in 1871 on the ~1issouri, and I
had a hard time.  The weight of my beef-cattle averaged a good deal
more than a thousajid pounds all the way through.  In the fall-in
September, October, and November~there were a good niany of these
cattle that weighed as high as thirteen hundred pounds, and in the
sl)ring they rai~ down to seven or eight hundred; that is, the cattle
ftirni~~hed for tlie Yankton and San tee Indians.  I have iio hesitancy in
saying that in -`;his counti-y, in Ordili'trv seasons, tlie same grade of cattle
would weigh f~in nine hundred and fifty to ten hu'idred and fifty
j~ounds.  I think the difference between lotting them for twelve hours
and weighing tl~em off grass and water would be seventy-five pounds. 
528
I`)ever have weighed our cattle to test their weights, but if I was
selling theni I would rather throw oft. seveiity-five pounds than lot
them, because I have a stroJig belief that they would shrink that much.
I think the shrinkage ~ould really be more than that.  Last year we
sold cattle for less money than we have ever realized off them. Last year
the average price of beef cattle through the country was about eighteen
dollars-cows about eleven; yearlings about six dollars, just pretty
much the saiiie price as this season.  I know of none selling for less.
Last season two- and three year-olds were worth about the same money
as this season.  I think last season tlie ruling price was about eleven
dollars fortwo-year-olds, and fifteen for th ree-year.olds.
By Mr. HA~RiS:
Q. ~Vhere did you deliv~r tlie cattle you sold last year to Bosler?
A. I dcliv~red iiiost of them up here for Red Cloud agency.  I think I
&lelivered three thousand bere aii~l thr~e thousand oli the Missoun River,
on what is called "Sugar Creek," on the west si~le, for all those agencies
oii the ~Iissoun J~iv~r.  ~Ve sold the Boslers this year about twenty-four
thousaiid.  I delivered the biggest portioli of then~ here on the Platte for
these two ageilcies, S~~otted Tail and Red Cloud; about twelve thousaud here aii~l the re~t at the other agelicies.
(~.If it is a fair question, what prices did Bosler pay this year for
cattle?
A. Vuless it would be of particular advantage to the commission,
for certain reasons, I would rather they would get tl~e I)articulars from
some other persoil, because there are other persons wlio sold cattle to
Bosler as well as myself.
Q. Have the cattle that you brought here come from tlie eastern portioii of Texas, or from the western or mountaili regioli ~
A. ~Iy cattle are all western; from west of tlie San Antoi~io itiver.
They are as large Texas cattle as we ever drive to this market.
By the CilAiRMAN:
Q. How did the cattle you delivered this season compare with the
cattle you delivered last season in point of size?
A. The cattle I delivered this season would average quite the weight
of the cattle I sold him last season.  I think the herds l;ist season had
more a~ed cattle in them.  Last season, I think, they would average
five-year.olds all through.  This season there are a good many four-yearolds among them.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Had you any of the scalawag cattle in this country?
A. Yes, sir.  In a thousand cattle there would probably be as n~any
as teli or fifteeii what we term`~scalawag" cattle, that ~~robably lived
their time out and got old and rough, and they do itot get fat at all.
They won~t get fat like young aniiiials.  They are rawboned, big, ugly
steers.  ~Ye don't have thciii in all herds.  They are iiot in select herds.
You see, it depeiids upoli the contracts.  I probably had a few in my
herd last year, but I do not thiiik I had half a dozeii.  I pay good prices,
ind try to select my cattle.  But every cattle-iiiaii is frequently fooled
by buying ii) the spring.
Q. NYith yearlings at ~$~, cows and two.year-olds at ~~l, and three
and four year olds at.~t5, aiid beeves at ~~I5, whieb is the most profitable ~
A. Tlie beeves aiid cows would t~e the ii~ost l)rofitable, decidedly, because cows would conic nuder tlie cheap grade of cittle, aiid they pay 
529
very h~~'i~~ily.  They wonid be very ea~ily tested JkV weighing and lotting
tlietii.  They are heavier, in proportion to tijeji' looks.  If a n~aii was to
h(1~'C yonng cattle in a herd, and they sh'jnl~l be eo~nted as weight, it
~von~~l be an advaiita~e to have tlieiii.  f 5~t'v abont twelve thons~tnd of
Lo~ler~ cattle.  I beli~ed to ent (?tit of them  SOiliC li(  lidn~t waiit to
(~~(rry to the ~~C~CiC5~5On~e of I~llist)!1\s aiid Sheidlev~s ~~~ttle-the
y$)nii g ones, the v~arlino's aiid two and three year 01(15.  1 tbiiik be
wijitered them.  All I s:tw of his were beeves an&l cows.  A good i~any
of theiii wei.e beeves.
~? \\~hat ~vould you say of filling a coiitract that re(iuired " beef,~'
with II~) other wor~ls, ~ith that cl~~ss of cattle?
A. it certainly would be filliiig it. with beef.  It don~t actually follow,
II) 115111  the tein~ " beef," that it has got to be fat beef, uiiless the quality
is sl~ecilie(l iii tlie contract.  It it were in good coiiditioii, it would fultill the coiltr;tct, unless it was slJecified that the beef innst be in fat con(litioli.  If I weic to agree to deliver to you so maily beeves on tlie hoof,
f ~~~oi1l(l understand that I should fiiriiish you anything in the world that
was b(~etWcows, yearliiigs, or anything else  aiiything th~tt was in a
good, he~lthy conditioji, unless steers were specified; but if I should
t~~CC to furnish you oiie thOusilid beeves, I would infer nothiiig else in
tlie world biit that they should be steers.  If the contract said "beefcattle~~ I would iii!er that they were to be steers; but I would not infer
that they were to be fat beef, unless the ~~ord "fat" was put in the contract.
Q. Suppose you take an i,lOO-pound steer and drive him twenty miles
to-(lay without water, you let him rest and feed and drink over night,
and then drive him eight miles, aiid i1nme~liately put hiiii on the scales
bow much more would that animal weigh than he would if he bad been
twelve boiirs without food or drink? A. ~Vell, I (lOIl't know.  it would make some difference~a drive of
twenty miles without water; and then the next day, if you give hin~
~~lenty of food and water, and drive hini eight miles, of course the steer
w~~ul~l shrink son)e, biit not as much by fifty pounds as if you shoul~1
lot lii iii, because there is nothing to excite him over night.  ~Vhen they
are lotted the steers hook aiid get excited, and they shrink.  (?attle at
this season of tlie year are full of grass and water.  A thirsty ox, baviiig beeii without water for twelve hours, would drink twenty-five or
thirty gallons; a i~ig ox, twenty-five gallons any way.  In selling cattle
on foot by weight, I would be liable to let them drink all they coul~ before they were weighed.  I would consider that was legiti~ately a part
of my business.
Q. ~Yhat would you say if tbe buyer would let you do it?
k If that was the contract I should think it was all right, but if it
was ~ot, I should think he was sort of goiii~ back oii ltiiiiself.  All ordinary horse will drink four bueketsful if you will let hi ii1~ aiid I am
sItisfied that an ox will drink a good deal ll)ore water than a horse.  I
I~'i~ overestimate it, but I think tie will ~lrink twenty-five gallons.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. I understand yoii to say th;~t you are this year deliveriiig mixed
cattle?
A. Yes, sir.
(~.A~e you delivering mixed cattle to?\[r. Bosler?
A. No, sir.  I sold all iny young cattle to ~Ir. Ilifi, antl ~Fi~. ~ - N\~i'iglit,
aii~l to ~lr Sny~ler; and ~Ir. P~ixtoii a l)uficli to go to his rlil~h.  I sold
~li~. b)~~sler two grades of cattle-beeves and cows.
)4 I F 
530
(? Tlie origiiia} uontrat't \vas niaile with you, I believe?
k.~es  ir, this seusoii but lie tins the tiliji`~ of it.  I just ninde an
ar<'iiigeliielit with hill) ill N~~v ~oik to carry out tlie coiitract`tnd deliver lie cattle.
(~. ~~~`is thi~ trai~~fer ~f tlie eoiitract nia~le ~vith the lierlnission of tlie
Interior Departineiit
~.There ~vas iio tr<'iiister it was nierely an ngreeinent that I was to
do one portion of tlie work hid lie aiiother.
Q.As I nii~lerst'iiiil it, tlleii tlie contract is still iii your name, but ~Ir.
Bo~ler was just a Ilartller in the concern?
A.I~e took ali iiiterest with n~e after the c~~ntract was awarded n~e.
The bitl was I)ut iii ill my o"-n ~`tniC with a view of filling it myself, proviiled iiobody w;inted any interest with me in it.  There are three of us
in i~.
(). ~~~d5 it a condition of P)05lCi~S having an iiiterest in the coiitract
that lie was to o\)raiii tile cattle frt~ui you`!
A.No sir, noile iii the worl~l.  ThIr. Bosler took this matter uii elitirely`iitCr~~ ard.  lIe saw that I liad a low bid, aiid lie tlieii`node a
l)roi)()sition to me f{~r liim to take an interest, he to do olie portion of
the work and Iaiiotlier.
By ~Ir. HARRIS:
(~. ~Vhat portion were you to ~0?
A.Tlie work that was allotted me was to get up these cattle aiid furnisti them here at certain I)rices.  I agreed to ~brnish a certain amount
of cattle at certain prices.  ~Ve just made a contract in New York, by
which he becanie partiier in the coiitract, for a consideration which it
would not be liecessary for me to name iiow in the matter. Of course I
was well p05tC(l as to the work that was to be done outside, and he
would be better able to iiianage the delivery of tlie cattle.  He knows
more about the ralige.  I have ii ever been at these agencies. A man
wlio has beeii in tlie business three or four years is better able to control
it and manage it than a new inan, because his camps are all organized
for managing it.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.Is he at liberty under his arrangement with you to purchase cattle
wherever he can do so to the be~t advantage.
A.Yes, sir.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q.Are you interested in those purchases?
A.No, I am not; iny iiiterest lies in the number of cattle I ii~yself
furnish. I furnish hini no capital with which to biiy cattle. I feel just
as much bound to see that contiact filled as if he had nothiiig to do
with it  and if there were not suflicient cattle oli hand, lie could go out
aiid buy.
By ~[r. ATlIERTON:
(?. lIas he any responsibility to tile (&over~ime~it for fulfilliiig the contract?
A.Of course he has.  The co~itract was let in lily iiai)ie to l~egin with.
After talking the niatter over the Baslers became niy bondsmen.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q.~t staiids with you as colitractor, and James NV. and J. H. Bosler
as yi)llr boii{ismen
A.Yes, sir. 
531
~y Mr. ATllERTON:
Q.If thci'e was a fiiilnre at any time to deliver cattl~, they could not
be c'all~~l UI)Oll for th~ fulfiliiaeiit of the contract?
A.No, they wot~ild go for me.  Of conr=~e they are iiiterc=~ted.  Jf
tli~re is any money to be n~ad~ they wonid be aiixions to carry it out. =
J\I~= contract is $2.46.~ per hiindred i)ounds.
By Mr. llARR~S:
(? Do you pay for the cattle you deliver according to the weight deter~iiiiied at the agency?
A.No, sir. I agree to deliver certain cattle for certain Pri('C5 l)C1' heid.
I li;ive nothing to (10 with tIiet~i`i~ f'tr a~ that is coi~ccri~ed.  I have 1)0
i~itere~t as regards the weight of tlie C('jttlC. I have an ii~terest i!0 tlie coiitrart besi~les my sale of tlie C('lttlC.  Bosler becoiiies a l)ni'chtscr to me
I()1' a certaiii a~nonnt of' ca~tle at cert'ti[i sl)e~ified prices.
By Mr. FAVLKNER:
~t~' You speak about this scasoii and la~t ~ea~oii: ~() ~`on mean 1S74
and 1~75?
A.I alluded to 1 S74 aiid 1 S7~.
(~. Do you s!)eak iiO\V of tlie quality of tlie cattle delivereti by Bosler
in November, 1874?
~.I only know tlie quality of the cattle so far is they went there.  I
kiiow notliiiig of the quality of the cattle that were delivered iii Novemher, 1874. 1 speak of the quality of tlte cattle that welit to tlie agency
ii) July ai~d August.  I was not here in November  1 was ill Texas.
ThQV were kept on the Platte and delivered during the seasoii. I si)eak
of the quality of tlie cattle delivered in June aiid July. They were in
good fleshy condition when I delivered them to him, and a gooil many of
them were what we termed fat cattle. There would probably be ii~ ~
hundred twelve, or fifteen, or twenty fat cattle. They were what we calt
shi~)ping cattle; cattle that would be sent to the eastern markets, au~t
the remainder would be good fleshy cattle.
(~. If these cattle would be good, fleshy cattle in July, what ought
they to be in November?
A.Thev ou~'ht to be what we term fat cattle in November.  They
generally get them in about the first of Jutie and July, and hold them
until the first of November, and then tlie cattle are getierally shii)l)ed
Last; and they geiierally get fat for packers in eastern iiiarkets to use
~p by the first of Novetuber.  In order to get catt[e here by the first
of July we have to start them  from Texas about tlie first of ~Iarcli.
~Ve estimate that we can drive it in about 7() days  but we generally
give them longer tiiiie.  Tlie cattle inay l)e over tinie on their way floin
Texas here. ~Ve start them very poor and they all get ill Ii iCC condition
by tlie tirne they arrive here.
By Mr. ATllEPTON:
Q.V~~hen ~Ir. Bosler takes reccil)ts f~r the delivery of cattle does he
take tlie'u in his own name or in yours
A.The vouchers are given iii uly ~`lIi)C, but lie has a power of attorbey to receive them and minage the business.
By Mr. 11APR IS:
(~. Is there any rule or custom anlong eattle-l)ui'eliaseis which would
aithorize the purchaser to require that they 1)C lotted t~~=elv honis before
`veigliiiig~
A.No; ui~less it was specified. 
5b~2
(? Arniy coi'ti~cts are (~ll fl0('~dC that ~`ay, I notice ~
N.Yt~s  ~11(l it) trading ~vitii each other it is tlie S('11~C.  If I ~~ere to
c~)II)e here atid oft~r you three cents per pouii~l fi~r your cittle, the cattle
to be ~~eig)icd here (It (?lieyenne, the inf~rcnce ~vould be that they
~vould be twelve hours without food or water, because tli(~t is the rule.
(~. If it is specined that yon are to ft~rnish 50 many pounds of bee~
on tbot at ~~`~.4~A l)er hundred, wIly should not tite same rnle prevail?
k Becan~e it is not tiie cu~toin.  It. it was we wonid be more careful
liow ~ve took c01it~'l~t at ~S~. 4(~1~  Of course, in figuring this cotitract at
$2.461, Itignrcd ~i~  1)~~`(ii~d water, becinse I hid that iiiucli advantage.
By ~Ir. AT~ILRT()N
Q.(?onld you now fl~rnish cattle at ~2.46f) lotted
k I coiil~l fl()t do it iiow-I could probably have done it last splingbecau~e t1te~e is an a~1vance iti the price of cattle.  I probably woultl
have ~lone it at the time I n0('idC tlie contract with the Interior Deliartinent, hiot the (4overiiment did not ask it.  I thought the Governn~eiit
was as able to ask that thing as aii individual; aiid if it did not ask it
I ditl ii'~t l)~~)l)os~ to do it.  If I iiiade the ci~ntract with tlie Army I
woulil kiiow that I was to weigh the cattle in the usual way-twelve
hours off grass and water.
By Mr. ll0WE:
(~. NVhat number of cattle did you furnish?
A.A bout 24,000 head.  Mr. Bosler was the purchaser of the balance
of the cattle.
Q.Instead of delivering 24,000 head to the C~overnment, you delivereil thetn to Bosler.
A.Not exactly.  I delivered them to the company; I put them in as
so much money; I sold them to niyself.  I agreed to furnish 25,000 head
of cattle of a certain class, a~d he was to take them at certain specifietl
prce~ and go ahead and buy tile rest which would be wanted. ~Iy
intelest was in selling that amonut of cattle.  After I bad got niy cattle all together, I had not quite 24,000.
By Mr. ATliERTON:
~? Have you aiiy interest with ~Ir. Bosler in fillitig the renoaiiider of
the coiitract
A.No; no further than I hive said.  The contract for the Yankton
and Satitee agcIi(~ies is in iny nalioc.
by ~fr. HOWE
C~. Let ine see if I utiderstatid you.  Inste;oil of delivering the cattle
to the Government. you delivered thein to tlie cou)~)aiiy, comt~osed of
yoursel~ ~lr. Bt~sler, atid other individuals. They pay you a fixed suin
per head for the Cit tIC so delivered; and this company nudertake to fill
that contract with the Goveinnient?
N Yes, sir.
By ~fr. HARRIS:
Q.Then you would rather sell your cattle for cash than carry out the
details of the contract yourself directly?
A.Yes. sir. I knew what these cattle cost me.  I was figuring to
make a sure profit with what cattle I was han~lliitg.  I thought I could
do better in driving cattle next spritig, than in liatidling them here.  I
did not want to have anything to do with the delivery of the cattle
here.  The whole trouble in this matter is gfloss anti water.  Cattle 
533
hipped to Chicao'o tl~at will W~~ah i10 Chic'~gO 9.Th(~ })OUO(15, will weigh
~t tl~e agelicy 1,100 ponnds.  Tiie ~ifI~rence to that ~~t&iit is ~jnst grass
(~iId water, and if a[iy maii does not believe so, let lijin go aiid weigh
them.  It takes a g~od clas~ of cattle to weigh 1,()()~) I)oniid~ iii Chicago.  They do not tike iiito coii~ideration the ~hrinkagc oli the car~ and
iii the yard after they get there.  Iii tlie olie case they aic weighed free
from 0'ra~~ and water, and iii tlie other they are not.  I would rather
weigh them gross than net, except at certain seasoii~ of the ve;tr. There
will be a great deal of difference between net anil gross weight of cattle
kilicd right off grass aiid witer,- and also between gross and net in
Chicigo.  In making the cotitract, I iignred oli grass aiid water.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.J~id Mr. Bosler pay you ~1l~ coii~ider~tioit for the contract?
A.I do iiot know, as we are iiot tryilig this ca~e now, that that would
n~~ke any feature in it  but I do iiot kiiow that an aiis~-er to that questioii would give the information which yoii gentlemen waiit to get at at
all.  I am quite wiliii~g to answer aily question as to the quality and
`iiiniber of cattle, bnt as regarils tiie private arn~n~emei~ts between niyself and Mr. Bosier, I dou't thiiii that that is material.
By Mr. flARRis:
Q.liave you paid, or proiiiised to pay, any person liolitiiig aiiy office
in the United States aliy consideration for awarding tl~at co1Itr~(&t ~
A.No, sir  I have never paid a dollar, or i~ron~ised a dollar, to anybody-not a person in the world.
CllEYLNNE, W. T., TiIC.~(Thy, A~gnst 24, 1S75.
I~resent: lion. THOMAS C. F~E~c~~~, chairmaii; Prof. GEORGE ~~.
ATHERToN; lion. TIMOTHY 0. liowE; lion. CHARLES J. FAULKNER;
and Hon. B. \V. liARRIS.
TESTIMONY OF D. J. McCANN.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. ~[r. McCann, please state your place of residence.
Answer. I reside in Nel~ra~ka City, Nebraska.
(). I will ask von to state ~Ir ~Ic(~'aitn, the facts iii refereiice to tlie
i~urchase, or proposed pnrcha~e, by I)r. Saville, United States India ii
igelit at i~ed Clond agency, from you, of certain ox~ii, wagons, aiid
cows.
About the 22d of July, 1S74, I arrived at the P~ailroad liouse in
tl~is city, from ~Vasliiiigton.  At tlie warehouse atid otlice of the storekeel)er of the P~ed Cloud agelicy, in the evening of tli(~t day, I saw a
notice requesting proposals for furnishing twelity wagons.- twenty
yoke of cattle, and twenty cows, and inquired of Mr. Palmei', the storekeel)er, what wagons and what class of cattle were required.  ~Ir.
Palmer stated that they wanted American oxeii, well bro keii, so that
e;ich yoke of cattle would w',rk on the ton~'ue, and suitable to be
given to tlie Indians for use.  Tlie ~`i~0ii5~ lie saitl, they prefrrred
to be the Studabaker, but they waited the ordiiiary two-horse
wa~oii.  I wrote to the Stntlabaker Brothers, at- So tit h Bend, Indinita asking their price fi)r ~I aiid 3~ spoke top-box spring-seats,
`intl double-trees aiid neck-yo~e wagon, with a request for Mr. Studa 
534
b;~ker o t~1~~i'~1)11 1Ii~ r~p1~~.;~Ii(~ I then I)llt ill ~ j)ropo~a1 to furnish
OX(I1. <`tn~1 ~~~VS.  Iii t!IQ fli&'~n tiiiit J )i. S<~vi1J~ (`ti'I~VQ~I r~~1~ th~
I lJ~t(1`~ C~1IVt~r.~~ti~)ii ~vit1i him, (111(1 1ikc~vi~e ~vith ()t!I&i' geli
t1(?Ifl~IJ "ith re~~vd t(~ tlie (?<t~~ of c;itt1~.  X~~thii~g ~i. ~(`L~(i jfl ~Cg~F(i to
tii~ W;i~~~~~  I hir~i1 1 ~Q~11i )f ~Ir. ~~~`~I(1 lI~Ut, took J)r. $~~i11e (~I1d t\vo
other ~`~I)tJCfl!C1),`tD(1 \ve`V(~11t t\vei)t~~-t~o illiltS I)oItl)~vest from here to
look (~t the C('~ttl(?.  ~1io OX(~I1 )vere pointed out.  I itn liot Positive thit
I)r. Saville Sfi~ tlie ox~ii  ~\ C fl~('~(lC t~o tri;~s.  Tlint ~as One trip ill
`vljich Dr. S(iV~11C hini.~~If ~CCon)l)nuied H  thit ~as t})C first tri1).  ~
day or t~vo ~rt~~ that. <`i 5~C()li)I ti11) w;1~ Inide.  ThIr. ~l)i)leton accoinp;ini~d;n( 011 t}ie ~e(i01i(I tril). (~i1d S('I\V the OxCil (`15 thev were pointed out.
The co~~~ weic ~rowil)g DHi'h(')Hi C0'v~  they ~~ere (1 liven, (~S W~ were iii.
Iforn~e~i, fi'oiii I~'tiis;is here tlie ye;~r befl)i'e but right liele I inay 5t('itC
thnt tlie icison this I);1rticijJ'~r l()t of C()'vS w~s selected or prol)ose(l to
l)C selec'te(j for this purpo~e,`v('i~ thit ThIr (4l:iicky, the editor ~)f the
flerald here, (Cheyeiine,) who was likewis( engage (liii tlie stock busihess. had sugge~ted to ThIr. Palmer for I)r. Saville (`tild n~yscIf this
1)articular lot, that lie had seen t1ie~ ~~ass through Cheyenne oil their
way to this raiich, and we went to look at then  and I ma~1e a contract
tbr the l)Hrcli'i~e, and the ilitetition was to furnish them on thi~ colitract.
I ~Ct~~iiCd and tlie following niorning, ill the office of the agent, irt this
C~t~ it having beei~ agreed that fhose cows were suitable for tlie
Indian use,.;ind tliat the wagons as described would be satisfactory,
(because it is well known what that wagon is, as the agent here
I$~$gl~~~)1~~li~~5~~0~)~~h~i~id~~ a}~1e that Th'~5th% of tohaC
a half sheet of paper, sin~ply an agreenient to deliver twcnty yoke ot
Icattle, twenty cows an~l twe lity wagons, to tlie Store-keeper for the
Cloud agency, in th'is l)lace, on the 1~t day of Septcrnher. I telegra 1)llC(1
to ThIr. Studabaker to foi ward the wagons; he telegraphed me that they
would be forwarded in a day or two.  Before these wagons were Shippe(l,
tlie factory of Studabaker, iii South Betid, Iii~liann, was entirely destr~ved by fire, with all the wagons, conii)leted aiid not coni pleted,
Oil han~l.  This I state troin commoii ruilior atid the itiformation given
me by ThIr. Studabaken  It was a well~known fact, as it is tlie largest
wagon.flictory in the cOuntr~-.  Tit is fire rendered it iinl)ossihle to
fn~nisli tlie St~)lab~'i ker wagon.  I ilililiediatel y started to Chicago  at
_thjt place I received a telegr;trn from tlie Cotnrnissioner of Indian Affitirs
in regard to soiiie b~siness, aiid went immediately to ~Vashington  I
came back, Themainili g in ~V~tsliington bitt a day or two, to the best of
niy recollectioti.  In a ~O~~C~5'Ltion with the C?minissioner npon tit is
subject, he in~ormed inc tliat he tlionght the B;iiu wagon, at Keiioslia,
or the ~Vhitewater, ~Vis., wagoil would either of theiii be suitable.
I? "ent from Chicago to Keiioslia, \Vis., ii I)on the day of niy arii~al at
Chic~tgo, and bought twenty wagons of ThIr. Lain, and they were shi~~ped
upon the Thfonday ibIl owitig. I was there upon the Saturday previous;
ind the wagons were shiliped to Cheyctine. I immediately cailie to Chey.
enne, a~d found th3t Dr. Saville had returned to the agency.  ThIr. Apple.
ton wa~ here,`ind ThIr. Palmer, the~store~keeper.  ThIr. Appleton informed
Possibility ii)g to the destruction of the Stiidabake    -
ine that ow                                conclti~led that they
ot getting that wagolt, Dr. Saville had r tactor~ and the imwould only take ten wagolis ~~5tC'td of twenty and
likewie concluded that, the season beinr~  tli~tt Di. SIViliC ha~l
advanced, be had better not
take the twenty mileb-cows, it being then
wise infbrmed me that Dr. S          in September; and lie like                         aville, ln~tead of ~aking the cattle agreed
nI)on~American cattle, well broken~at tlie price igreed upon, woultl 
535
pr~fer to bity a little lower grade of cattle, yot~10g wo'.k~cattIe, well broken,
`vhiQII could be got at a lower prite.  I said to ~Ir. ~pj}letori that the
`va go! 5 N'cre on tlie w<'iy. that they WCr~`vOLtit the n~~)uey i)iirchased,
aild, if 1)r. S;i~'ille preferred, as I could not fui'iiish the Studibaktr
w1goii~. to drop the ni<'itter, aii~I puichise ijis`vi`~oiis aiid cattle el~e
where if he could do better, aiid iii less quaiitity I hid 110 objeetioii. IIe
~ai~l tilit a voucher for the cattle and wagons as agreed 111)011 liad
l)CCfl lirepared at the ageilcy, and sent over to the store-keejier here,
l)!it, li;iving changed his n~in~l, the store-keeper had retnriied the
`~oiii'her to the agency, and my ii~en~orandnin-agree~nent, which w~is
sigiied tiy my~elf, and not by I)r. Siville or any one else for the
~~overiiiiient.  It was not a contract, but sii~j~ly an agree~neiit 011 Iny
J)&~tP~. TIie iiieiuorandniu-agreetneiit was in the oflice, aiid was h-~nded by
ThIr. P~tliner, the store-keeper, to ine, and I destroyed it.  ~~~hen the
twenty wagons arrived, ~Ir. Ajii~leton told me that he would like to
have tcii of the wagons; he would not 1~urchase twelity; all he
wai~ted was ten.  I said,  You can take ten wagons at cost and cari-iage-the cost at V&enosha, ~Vis., and one-halt of the freight-bill as
charged at the railroad here.~'  I turned them over to him at that time,
iiid I suppose they weiit to the agency.  The rest of the wagons I turned
over to Mr. llaas, a dealer here, and he sold them, and gave me the
moiley for them.  These are the facts, as I understand them, with regard
to the whole transaction; and the failure to comply strictly with the
iilemoraiiduin-agreeinent, giveli to Dr. Saville aii~I            store                                           left with his
keeper, was lii) fault of miiie.  Technically, I could iiot comply with the
agreement in furnishitig the Studabaker wagon at that time.  Mr. Stud
abaker asked thirty days' time.  lle went on immediately nianufttctur
iii  the wagoiis.  I did not believe that it would be satisfactory to Dr.
Saville to wait thirty days, and, as tlie season was advancing, too, I de.
cliiied.  I purchased the Bain wagon after consulting with the Comiiiissioiier of Inilian Affairs, and believed that tile Baiii wagon was equal to
tlie Stddab~tker wagon for all pr<ictical ptir~)oses.  I paid i~iore by tlir~e
lollars per wagoil for the Bain wagoli at I&eiiosha than I was asked tor
the Studabaker wagon at South benil, Ind.  The freight was about the
same from lienosha, N\~is., as from South bend, [ud.  The oxeji which
were selected and agreed to be l)ilt iii on this contract were Aiiieric;ii~
cattle, all roan and red Durhan~ cattle.  Thev were five yeai~s old.
They were shipped to Chicago, and sold at ~4.75 per hnnilred j~ouiids,
gross. I state this fact to show you what kind of eatUe they were, ~in~l
why the Doctor could get cattle for less than we wanted to sell liim.  I
shipped theni to Chicago after that, because I knew they were wortl~
more there.
Q Did you ever have posses~sion of that voucher?
A. I never saw it nor had it.  I bad no right to it.  I was informed
that it was sent here in accordance with the agreeJnent, and then, whyl
Dr. Saville was informed of the burning ot the ~tudaba~er fattor~,
it
went back to him.  I know nothing of it.  I was prepared to fill that
`igreement strictly in conformity to tite contract, except tlie Studabak-er
wagon. I agreed to furnish the oxeil at $150 per yoke, and the wagons
at  12) or $120 each.
Q. Lid those oxen bring as much gross weight ill Chicago as you
offered to put them in at?
A. I thiiik they did; but if there was ally difference, ~it wis tritliiig.
Tlie re~nark ~ a.~ made here that there woulil be ~- cry little lost iii tlie
sale. 
i3y ~Ii. HARRIS
~? ~\~as there (~fl~ re~~on ~`liy tlie L)e1~'irtji~eiit conid hot buy the ~~~`~g.
O1)~ <l~ (~heai)]y as you ~O~tl(l b~iy tbe!ll?
~.~~e~, ~ir.  I liad,`~s yoti are a~vai'e aii;iiiiiual ~~outract \Vitll tlie
railroad coii~paiiies for tlie ~hipifleilt of freights to this 1)O~iit,`ind u~ fd'cilitie~ for the transportation )f the ~vagoi~s from South Beiid her~ aii~I
from I&eiioslia here were greater than tho~e of tlie (~overninent. If the
(~overi~ji~ei~t had shipped then~, they would have been charged up at t('tJ'ift' rateA-I)eriialis f~illy from 5() t() 75 per eei~t. al~ove the rate~ which I
pay.  ~~~a~()1i5 are generally shippe~l at double first~class ~`it~5~ on ac
COuLit of the bulk.
~)y tlie CllAlRMAN:
(~. ~Ir. ~t~Cai~ii, you have, I beli~'ve. a contract for fi'eigiitii~g these
Iiidiau ~uppiies to this point aiid to 1~ed Cloud and SJ)otted Tail agencie~?
~.I have, sir. I have the coiitraet~ in this building, [First National
Baiik buil~liiig, Cheyenne,] and can produce them.
Q.~Vhat are they for ~
A.I have a freight-contract with tlie Indian Department for tlie
transl)ortatioii of alt Indian annuity goods and supplies purchased in
New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Chicago to Omaha aiid Siou~
City aiid i~ansas City; from Kansas City to three agencies in the Indian
Territory aiid to Cheyenne; froiii Cheyenne to the Red Cloud a~enQv,
aiid the Spotted Tail agei~cy, and tlie Shoshone and Bannack in ~ yomilig, and the \Vliite River agency in Colorado; for the Uiiitali agency
in Utah and to Ogden: and certajit supplies for the agencies in Idaho
Territory. I believe that comprehends all tlie contracts for freighting
which I have.
(~. N\~hat other contracts have you?
A.One contract for furnishing 200,000 pounds of flour for the
Si)otted Tail agency, to be delivered ii~ Cheyeniie, and for 300,000 pouiids
of corn for the same ageiicy, to be delivered in Cheyenne. These are
all the contracts which I 10 ave witli the India~ Department, except
where tlie Commissioner failed in one or two iustances to make a contract with any persou for haiidliiig ~ome small ainounts of goods. say
for tlie Quapaw agency from I&aiisas City. I have agreed by letter to
transport these from Kaiisas City to that agelicy for a certaiii price.  I
have likewise agreed by letter to flirnish oiie or two other agencies with
small amounts of aiinnity goo~ls which were not provided for in my
contract or any other. Those proposals have been formally accepted
by tlie Commissioiier, and ni'iy not be teruied coiitraci s, but haviiig
been iiotified that no provi~ioii hid been niade, aii~l the questioli being
a~ked nie. 1 have submitted tiie price mostly for railroad trailsI)ortatioll.
They are very small amounts, which wei'e overlooked by tlie Dei)artnient iii niakiiig cootracts f~r the tra!isl)ortation this year. These contracts`0~~ for tra n~por tation ouly. I have 1)0 contract for lur nishing
goods.
Q.Did you ii ave any contract for fi~rnishiiig suloi)lies luriii~
yearat Red Cloud agency?                              last
~.I did not.
Q.~~ ere you interested ill ally of the contracts for furnisliino' sup1)lies at   that~ageucv
A.I was not.
Q.Do you know who had tlie contract for furiiishiiig the flour
there? 
5~7
~ I &lo.  It was John II. ~[aitii~. o~ Dt~nver.
(~.!~id yon assist nitui iu (`~11~ ~~~ ~ll coinpietilig his (~oiitr~Ct?
x.I did.
{~. Iii what way?
k.~~~heit 1 arrived at Clieyeiiiie. 01) tile 2L~d of Jii1~. ~s74. I fouiid
that I h~id been re~iuire(I to tiii iiisli ti'~llsi)0~t'lt~()ll f()l il~~nr;~iid other
siit~ilies for the agencies.  The trausi)ort')tiOIi was here wiitillO. The
stor~-keeper had writteil and teie~iaplied to ~[r. ~Iartiii with re~ard to
his flour, and was informe(i that ro~ir was oii the way f;~om ~&~tlI5i'~ (~ity
aii~l otI)cr points on the IQaiisas I~aciii~ 1~ai1road, aiid that it would
sooli be here ready for delivery.  The flour did not arrive  aii~l when
I~r. Saville came from  the ac I)(`. lie jioformed one that they were
eiitirety out of flour, niod he telegraphed himself ~o ~~r.`\fartiu urglilg
hion to inake an early delivery.  ~Ir.?\~artiu's flour did liot collie iii at
all at that time, and was evidently comilig very slowly.  ~ly transportation was here waiting for the flour.  ~Ye were here at great exl)cnse
waitin~ for the flour and other go()(ls to arrive to traiisport tlien~ to the
ageil cy; and I telegraphed i~Ir. ~[artin that he could purchase some
flour in Omaha.  lle wrote me by return mail that if I would noake
the first delivery for hiu~ of 200,000 pounds of flour, lie would
give inc the centract-price aiid $50 for my trouble.  I telegraphed
to omaha and purchased 200,()(0 pounds of flour, to be shi1~ped as
rapidlv as it could be manufactured and sent forward.  by this coiltract`the flour was to pass inspectioli, and be such as would be received under ~1r. ~Iartiii's coiitract.  Oii the 8th of August 2()0 sacks
of flour were shipped by 0. P. liurford, of Omaha; oii the 13th of August 200 sacks were shipped; on tl\e 21st of August 200 sacks were
shil)pcd  on the 21st of August, agal u, 222 sacks were shipped; on the
25th of September 237 sacks were shipped; oil September 25, 472 sacks
were ship~~ed; on September 30, 250 sacks were shipped; on tiie 3()th,of
September, again, 250 sacks were shiliped, and on the same dav, again,
250 sacks were shipped.  {~Ir. ~Ic(~ann read tile fo [low in g figures troin
tlie bills of lading fro~n the railro<'id compaiiy:] "August S, there were
shipped 200 sacks; August 13, 2(~0 sacks  August 21, 200 sacks; August 21. 222 sacks' September 25, 237 sacks; S cptenfi?er 25, 472 sacks;
September 30, 250 sacks; Se1~tembcr 3(), 250 sac~s  ~ei)tember 3(), 25t
sacks-total, 2,281 sacks."  That i.~ 011)011 the contract which was made
for 20Q00O pounds of flour.
Again lii October. ~Ir. ~Iart iii was slow in delivering the flour.`Te
telegraphed me to put iii sonoc iii ore ili~ur oii tloc saiiie terlils and oil
October 15 ~Ir. Hurfor(l shi l~I ed 250 socks  O~to')er 15, 25( sacks
October 1~, 220 sacks  October 1'.). 250 sacks  Octolier 2.j~, 220 sack~
October23, 120 sacks-1,~1O sacks.
N ow, ~Ir. Chairman, having licIrd that there w crc su PI iosed to be some
irregularities iii regard to this flour, I au~ prepirelI to cx-liibit to the
-           ~inent of flour, receipted.  I
conimission the bills of ladiiig for ea~li.~iiii
have already stated to the conllllissioll that I had no interest in this matter, directly or indirectly, exceilt that of a fi.ciglitcr, and (li(l not`\-tnt iny
transportation to be delayed.  The c~~iitract -price was $2.50 per huiidred
pounds for this flour delivered in (?heyeiiiic.  ~Ir. llurf~~r~l also said that
he would give me $50 for my trouble. ~Iy rei)ly was, "t will charge yon
~othing but the interest u~~oii tlie nioioe~ ~ hole I am out ot it.
~?- Now, the contract-price for this flour. $2.50 i~er hi~ildred pounds,
was received by ~Iartin
f~ Yes, sir. 
538
().~i~y I)I'ofir tllQfl. b~t~vU(~11 t}ie I~'~~-~ ~(`~~(1 foi i ~ iii O~~i~t1~a au~1 the
i)ri&e I?~i(1 ~)\ tilt) ~z&)V(?III!11~11 t ~v;t iii;i~I~ ~~;\f('~Ft~t1?
~. ~`1iure ~(`lS I~() Iliofit iii tIi~it ~olitia~t. ThIi'. ~I(lUt 11 lost a~oii~y. The
fli~ur tl~liveiutI iii (?htytii lit ~~~OU1(l ~(~~t!ilO1~ tutu t ic 1)Fj(~t ~V!ij(11 tlie
( ~O~(?IillllQUt \`~s 1i'.~yill~' ft)I' it   l)~lt I li(l~~t) 1 s1)(~(~i~il (~OlItrtCt ~vitli tlie
r'iilrO~tl (OU)I);~l)'v, (`~Htl i!c}iv(~rci{ it h~~re chc~1~tu tI~aii ~Iartin coul&l.  Iii
other N\~OI(l5, ~I~rtili g{)t tlic hc~i&~flt;of lily ~~~c~(il r;itcs with tlie r'iilro'~~t
colilpaily fur tr'~n~l,o1't'ttioll  aii~1 I g~ve it to hiiii iii ordcr to facilitate
`fly trallst)iiit;i tit)Il.
(~.~Ii. ~fc(?~IiIi. in tlie matter of procuuing flour to fill the contract
of?\Ii. ~Iai~tin, did you tI irect I{i~rfurtl that lie should jint ul) a portion
of th<'tt flour iii SS.i)ounii ~acks instead of s;icks coutaiiiiiig 100 l)OlilldS ~
A. [ (li(i iiot direct hini to (l() so  but there was a delay in Ilie ship.
iliCilt of tlie Ilour for the ~~aut of sack~, aiid tlie questioli arose as to
whether tlie flour would l~e receiveil iii sacks weighing less than 100
pouiid~.  They bad some sacks which wonid not bolti 100 pounds, and
the stoie~keeper, I believe, telegraphed to the Depirtuient asking if he
slioulil receive flour in sacks not weighing 100 pon~ids.  The reply was
that tile flour might be received at the actual weight; and what sacks
~[r. ifilitird liad, I don~t know liow many, holding iii the neighborhoosi of ~7 or ~S pounds, were used to put lip the flour in.  All the rest
(if the flour was i)nt Up in sacks weighing not less than 100 pounds.
The r'iilro;id-reeeipts show what nii in her of sacks weighed SS ponilds
aiitl what iluinber weighed 10() pounds.
Q. ~Veie you ailvise~I by llurford that he bad sacks that would contain S(S jiounds aiid iio more?
A. ThIy in0pression is that in passing through Omaha I stopped to
urg~ tlie s~ieedy sliipnieiit of tlie flour, and was told that a certain lot of
sacks were on hIlid which llCl(i less thaii 100 ponnds, and that other
~acks hatl been ordered froin St. Louis.  I told him that as the contract
~`-as for t iiuiiiher of iion lids, I could see no objection whatever, except
the wei~ht, aiid urged the speedy shipment of the flour in whatever
sacks they hid.  There is olie bill here which is for 224 sacks, but~the
\`ei~tit~ ile carrieti out at 22,000 pounds, which would be the weight
of`~0 acks at 100 pounds each.  ~Ir. lliirford, in iiis letter exjilaining
that, sai~l that in that pai'ticular c;ir-load he was compelled to go up
town anti purch~ise a tew odd lots ot flour to complete tlie car-load, aiitt
tiiat olie or two of the sacks were light, and he j)(lt four sacks in over
to iiiake up tlie whole 22,000 pountis of flour.
~? Then I undti -~t~iud ~ on that thi~ flour was iiot put up in SS-pound
sacks at your I);ii~ticular reilllest
A. No, sir  I thiiik jiot.  I think I made the request, but I think
tlie req nest \vi5 niade atter being inflirnied tli;tt they were the only
sacks oil hanil, aiid they would have to wait the arrival of other sacks
trom St. Louis.
~?- Diii you notit~ Agent Saville or the store-keeper here that flour
was bt~iiig put uj) or had beeii put up in SS-poun~l sacks?
A. I wrote back to tlie store-keeper, but not to Agent Saville, that
llutford would ship a lot of flour iii SS-j~ound sacks.  The store-keeper,
as I learned afterward, would not receive sacks of flour uiiless they
weighed 1)0 pounds.  ~ot ilivilig -~IirtiIi's contract before hini, he did
liot kiiow biit that tlie COlitrict was for flour in sacks weighing 100
pounds: anil for that rca son lie te legraplied to the I)e partilient.
Q. Do you know whether those S~-jiound sacks were tlolible sacks and
the weight mark~d upoii tlieni`.~
A. I do ilOt, of my own kilowleilge, but I suppose the~ ~ere all in 
539
dofll)le sacks. I ne~~er heard that they were noL in donbie sacks. I ~~on't
klI()W whether the weight was marked on tlie s'~ek or not.  I know of
tlie`ve~ghts (~t which those sacks were iljs1)eeted whei~ hiongilt here, and
~lr. ~~reen. of the State ~~ills, ()m~h'. told inc that he fortiisiied a part
of tl~e tI~n'r aiid tited that all tlLC il~~iir which he f~iriiished li~d the
weigl~t ()f sS poands  and all the sacks which lie jlis1)eetC~l liel(l ont
tlie fall (~S poUllids.  I think the store.kcepe'.'s books here will sll()'v that
some oi~ ~Ir. Coakiey's ins1)ectioli ~~i~1ie~t oiily S poun(~5 aiitl a fractiot'
~)\cr. The fi'actien~5 carried oat on the books of the storekeeler, aiid
lie bille~l the tloar to me iii that way. floar ~~artin contracted to deliver
(~.Di) yon reineii~bcr how ninch
tli(It year?
~  I do iiot, sir.  I snppose I heard at the tin~e, bat I don't know how
iijach fii~ar lie contracted tor.
(~.Do yoil kiio'v how much lie &lid ~eIiver?
A. N~o, sir.  ~Iy bills of ladiiig would show how mach I hanled, but I
would li~ve to eNanline my hooks to see
u;e~cilieosw~ouni~$)?h{~~fniS~ed?$ you own en~aged in l~auling supplies to tl~e
A. I have one h~n~lred and fifty yoke of cattle and fifteen wagons at
present. I have sold some.
Q You spoke of special rates which yon had with tbe railroad corn
pally?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
(~ Are those special rates which you have less than the usual rates?
A. ~Iueh less.
(~.I thiiik you sai(l from 50 to 75 per cent.?
A. ~1ore than 75 per cent. below usual rates~more than 100 per cent
now. The regular rates Ii ave largelv advanced since I made my contracts, with all the railroad coinpanies~with which I am acquainted, rnniilng east and west. For instance, the rate to Cheyenne has beeli all the
pres~nt season $2.70. The Government pays me ~I.05; there is a difference
of $1.65 in favor of the Goverlirnent. That is much greater, however,
thali it was last year or lias been heretofore.
Q. Ilave ~ou any contracts for freighting supplies for the Army?
A. I have not.
(~.Did you make a cantrict for the removal of the sul)plies and other
itiaterial about the i~~ed Cloud agency, from the Platte River n~ to the
present location of the agencY
A. I did, sir.  It was in August, 1S7~. That was a special contract
made by the Indian Departrnelit; tlie contract wis by the day for the
cattle and wagons, and the cotitract for tlie ~ransportation of the sapplies was by the 100 pounds.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. I ~nd npou looking over these bills which you liaiided me, and
Unrfoid's bills, that 2,2:~s sacks of flour oat of the whole number are
charged to you as weighing only 55 pounds per sack?
A. Yes, s~r; I had an idea it was about that ii umber. I recoivel the
flour for 55 poun~ds, aiid turned it in at 55 pounds, except where ~1r.
Coakely in weighing it found a discrepanc~ in the weight sometimes
of one-tenth 9f a pound less 55 pouiids, and that traction you will find
charged against nie on tlie 5~ore~keeper~s books, ha I paid t'or them just
as weighing 55 pounds.
Q. Ilere is a letter; do ycu know anytliiiig of it
CiI}~Y~N~E ~v~o.,  iiqii.~t 1, 1~74.
1)~~r SiR: 1 received your two fav~rs of tlie:~Oth ultinio ve~tCUd(IY% an1 teltgraphed
von to basteR shipments of 5 cars flont as ninch as possible.  Yonr price (~2.t2) will 
540
flie eolOttact()t a loset about c. pet sack.  I Ii11i~t have 1~fltfr) ~acks. however, a~
iVIOl! c;i 10 }oo~~iblv foi~'vatoi tlieiio.  1 1e;i~e Ioo~to1 220) s;ii-.ks iii i car.  ~~Iie'. iii'.i~ bill
it`it    )()() ibs.  I can take 5.000  ~.`icks bore of vOoli. 1)1 olo.' Oly. at ~2 it the carsdouble acked.  The price is $2.5)) heic.  kd~~ise tile wli;i t yott cat (l(). toil liow fast yoii
c:in tlcliver.  The Ilotir tiiii~t be to'ci~ijoted fi)r as loo'iti' }iioit~lit at atiol.~hi1oped froni
~0iuaha.  ~~~e will have it itispecti~d licre.  ~I;tke this 1.00000 s;ick~ as goinil is yoo can.
Yours, truly,
D.J. ~lcCANN.
(~.P. HURYORD Lsq.. Omoho,.
`floe 5 cats will be 1.1000 sack~ itisteati of 1.000.
A. Yes, sir; th'~t letter ~~as written to ni:ike up.2O.O()() pouiids of
11()ur-iu order to in`ike up tlie ex'~ct aniount ()f lIoni. which ~Iartiii ~~a.s
c~lle~l upoil to deliver tip to a certain day, ~lid 20,000 pounds ~vas tlie
aniount.
().~\~ho autl~orized YOU ti) biiy flour~sacks weighing SS pounds?
A. ~1r. ~Iartij~, the contractor did so.
~? flave you in your possessiju any letters froill ~Ir. ~I~irtin bearing
upon that subject?
A. I have no 1etters of lay correspondence of last year with me.  I
l~cive the company's bills of lading, but have not t~rought any corres~~ond
eiice with me.
Q. Do you say that after that flour was received here at Cheyenne
you transported it to P~ed Cloud agency at its exact weight?
A. I say that I tral)sported it at its exact wei~ht and that weight
was less than we paid ~Ir. llurford for, and I would like you to look at the
store.keeper's books, an~1 they will show at what weight it was received;
and that the store.keeper~s books, and the railroad company's books, and
the books at Cheyenne all correspond.
Q. N\~liat did you pay llurford for the flour ~
A. I paid for tlie first lot -~2.12, as the bills will show; and for the
second lot $2 per hundred.
Letter of ~1r. ~IcCaj~n, dated Cheyenne, November 1, IS 74, to ~Ir.
Ilurford, as follows, shown
CHEYENNE, f\~tembco 1, 1S74.
DEAR Siu: I have your favor of tlie 29th toltimo, postmarked tbe 31st.  1 called at
the liankitig-lioiise of P. S. ~Vilson on Tnesd.iy evening on noy arrival here  and fliiding
i~ closed, paid your draft on II~dne.~day;?ioi'00i?ig.  I am not resl)onsible for any delay.
~ow, as to  patcliiiig tip~' this flo~nr for Dr. Irwin, it won't do.  The railroad charges
double rates on all excess over 22,000 Ibs., and I fear you will have an overchar~e on
the retnaining cars.  Please send good flour.  ~Ve have 212 sacks of your ilotir in warehotise reject&d.  An investigatton as to the causes of this will lead to unpleasant corresloondence with the Dcpartiiieiit, as Barclay ~~ bite dtsclaiins reslionsibility.
Yours, respeeflilly,
0. P. HURFoRD, Esi1., Oiiiolio.                     D. J. McCANN.
Q. You say he has in tlte`vareliou.~e 212 sat-ks of that flour, rejected.
A. TieDepartinent wrt)te to ~Iajor Loi~g,or to the At)re.keeloer, I don't
kiiow which, to have all the flotir wl~ich Barclay ~Vhite had ilispected
at Omaha re -inspected here  ai~~l so~iie of tlie flour luspected by Barclay ~Vhite was rejecteti alter iiisl)ection by ~Iajor Long  I called upon
Barclay ~Y hite in Omaha to ascertain why the sami)ie ot Hurfortl's flour
should pass in Omaha,~and he pay freight upoii it here, anti not pass
(Jo I onel Long.  ~Ir. ~~ hite ii~tornied me that he received the sample
from ~Ir. flurford by w
lole he pat in        hich to inspect the flour, an~l which was the sam
sta'te~tl~t)tita~tt~is his b; ii}{~l~~i~~?;~~{~~~~~t~~~~ii~lt1 ~t~ra~ a cer            of flour by that sample, ~In flurford called ul)on hin~ aiid
a better article of flour thaii tlie saiiiple which he liad fnriiished the 
541
Del)~rtrn~I)t, al)(l then fuinishedan inferior ~ampJe, or sample of inferior
flour  and that he h('~(I inspected a c'Ir-loa(l or I1)ore i)cihaps, by the
iiiferior sample  ai~d that he snppo~ed a portion of that car-load of floiir
was the flour which h~0d been rejected by Col()Iiel Lo~ig.
Q.  You say you had 110 correspoiiden~e.  ~Vh~tt did you mean by th~
teilil  niil)leasant correspondence ~`
A.  I shoul(l think it would be nni)leasailt f~}r ~[r. llnrfor~1. or any 0!)C
to do as he did.  I refer to tlie chai~~e of satiiple~ by ~Ir. Ilurford.
By Mr. ATllERT0N:
(? Did I understand you to say that ~[r. Ilurford, when he undertoot to fill the Martiti contract, fiirnisl~ed the sa~nple?
A.  Mr. Hurford, in furnishing thisflo ur, was allowed to put in his owii
sai~il)le which he furnished tlie boar~l in New York.  I know th('tt Mr.
il ~irford furiiished a sam~~le to tlie IJeparttnent.
By Mr. llARRI5:
Q.  ~Vhat is your contract-rate with the railroad ~~etweeu Cheyenne
and Omaha ~
A.  On grain, flour, and con~, in car-loa~ls, it was ~100 per car with
a rebate of.~25 per car, nettiiig ~75, wit h 2(),0()0 pounds to a car-load; all
over 20,000 would be 50 cents per hundred pounds.
(~. You say that for 20,000 pounds you p;tid *75 between Omaha and
Cheyenne, that is 37~ ceiits per hundred, and the contract of ~1artiu for
the delivery of flour was $2.5(i?
A.  Yes, sir; and I paid llurford *2.12 there, making it cost $2.4~.~
here.  The balance I got from Hurford was ~~, thus giving Martin ~
profit of 12~ cents on that secoi~d lot of flour.  Mr. Martiii had the benetit I had no benefit from it.  In the settlement I charged him with the
amount of i~oney paid out, and interest 011 the moitQy iiiitil repayment
was made, and that was the entire interest I had iii it.  Mr. lIurford
was a bidder in New York for this flour at *2.35; but had the Government' aecei~ted Mr. llurford~s ~)id at Oniaha at.~2.35, it would then have
to pay me 45 cents per hundred for transportation from Omaha to Cheyeiiiie, and the flour would then cost *2.S0 delivered iii Cheyeiiiie.
(~. Your profit on the transportation 1~etween Omaha and Clieyeniie
was a profit of 7~ cents ~)er hundred pouiids ~
A.  Yes sir  I liad nothing to do with tlie loading or nnloading.
Q.  N\ hat is'the schedule-rate between Omaha aii~l Cheyenne?
A.  I eoiitract everything for 45 cents t~er hundred pounds  but I have
t() pay for some freights to tlie railroad ct)m~~a1iv lii~'li~r than that.
~1erehandise, first class is $2.05, second class *~.S0, third class $1.55, per
)iniidred pounds, from Omaha to Cheyeiine  graili, con~missary stuff,
l~~tcon, &c., is so much per hundred pounds, of lS,(?00 poiiii~ls and over
that i~, there must not be le~', than that in a car.  t get it for *~.45.
l~y giving the Union Pacific P~ailroad Com~~aiiy all my freight, and
paying~full tariff rates in cash at (~heyeiine, I get a rebite.
Q.  ~ow, can you tell inc any reason wli~ the Goveriiinent itself cannot make the same si~eeiat rates with the railroad company which you
make?
A.  ~es,sir, lean; because, in transportiiig Government goods over tli e
Uiiion Pacific and K('ttiS('iS Pacific Railro~ds, the roads are entitled to a
formal requisition by the )roper otlicerof the Goveniment and a Governmelit bill of lading prior -o the shipuicilt. and theii tlie~ are entitled to
charge, and do charge, th~~ir tariff as furiiished in this pamphlet2 (schedul~~) with tlie exeel)tioii ol the revise~l ta~'ifl wlij('h they have, iii ~ hich
certain articles are higlici rather th;in lower, aiid n~~oii the d~livery of 
512
these goods they are reqiiire~1 to have that Goveriinjei~t bill of liding
reeeii~ted b~ the otheer ttIer~ to receive these goods from tiie road before they re('eive credit f)r this traH~I)ortLtiO1i  they are coi~~peIled to
for~~ird the e ~~iI1s to \~~i~liingtoii, to tlie anditilig. dep'0rt!nelit of the
Governn~eiit  ai~d (`15 t aiii iI1fl~i'Ii)ed aiid believe, there is a lifibrence of
opinion alin ~st invaijably bet\VeeU these oflicers of tlie (&overiiiiient
and the offl'&ers of tlie raiiroa~l  c'~nsequently, tlie railroad c~inpaiiy
i)refers to ship aI0y or (`ill g'oo~ls by I)rivate coiitract  that is, they I)refer shipping goods at a n~neh lower r;tte wl~eii they can receive the goods
at the 1)()iiit of shi1)ii)eI)t, forward then) to their desti nation, receive tlie
cash, aiid have no i'nrtlter tronbie and respoiisibility; thereby showing
at the end of every thirty days what the receii)ts aiid expenses of the
roads may be.  It is a bnsiiiess transaction; aiid the experience of the
Indiaii Department of tlie ~"overiiinei~t is, that last year that Departmelit saved fully -~2~,OO() or $23,000 of money which was`~ppropriated
1~y Coiigress for the use of the Indians, and which if they liLd used iu
shij~ping, and had been charged up ~~~ith tarift rites, tlie traiisl)ortation would have been charged to the a~)pro~)riations for that purpose,
aiid therel~y left the Interior Departmeiit with much less money to give
to the Indiaiis and I think that it 100t only i~ecessarily reduces tlie
`ippr0~)~~it~0~5 of that Dei~artment, but it leaves the Indians with that
~iiuch l)rofit.
Q.l)o you know of any reason why tlie Government itself, through
its s~)eeal agent, could n~~t make tlie same rates you do ~
A.I doii~t know whether it could or not, through a special agent.
I have never asked; but I doubt whether it could.  I have an advaiitage over other shippers.  The advantage I have over other shipi)ers is
that of moving large aniounts of freight. Almost all of iny freight comes
in car-loads. There is but one bill of it and one delivery, while when
others ship, a car may contain the freight for fifty difl'ereiit parties.
Any other man shipping as much as I do might have the same rates,
and I don't see any reason why tlie Government should not.
Q.You have a contract from Philadel~)hia to Omaha ~
k I have but one contract, and it includes New York, Philadelphia,
and Baltimore, to Omaha.
Q.N\~hat is the rate in that one contract?
A.The rate in this one contract is the same from the three cities.
~Iy contract with tlie Governmeiit from New York and Philadelphia was
60 cents, and iny profit last year was five cents l)er hundred l)ounds. I
have a eoiitract with the railroads leading to these cities for a sl)ecial
rate, aiid as fliras Chicago with the Unio~i Star Line Transportatioii
&~ompany  from Chicago to omaha, with the Chicago, Burliiigton and
(~niiiey, and ~Iissouri I)~~~0~ I~~ailro;id Compaiiies, and iiiy facilities for
0bt'iining these special rates are because I ship large quantities of
freight.  If' tlie Goveriimeiit would ship is niuch, and would p;iy cash
upon the ~lelivery of the goo~ls at tlie l)oints of delivery, I don't know
l~ut that it could have as good rates as I do.  The raili'oad compaiiies
generally ii ave iii formed the Department that they would make 1)0 reduction of their schedule-rates, for the reason th;it in tlie settlenient of
their accounts they are embarrassed by tlie requirements ot tlie auditing departments of the Government, and in some iiistaiices have been
niore thaii one year   in tlie collection of freight- hills.  But if the Gov
ernmeiit would do as other l}eol)le do, and pay when the work was done,
they would have no trouble in getting as low rates as I do.
Q.When we came here (to Cheyenne) the other day we found t~enty 
543
two (~ar-1o~dS of freight lying., with th~ fi'eig~~t UH1)('~~d over the IQansas
P~~ifie I~jiIrOa(i.  Can yon give aiiy rea~()ll for that?
~ ~Vheu the Goverijinent eorniiietie~d deliveiiii~ the o'ood en~braeed
in these bills of la&li~~g to n)e, (~bOflt tl~u 16th ()f Jni~e, some iii I~hilatlei1~hia, some in New ~~ork, aiid solI)e of them  iii Baltin~ore, I ~ent on to
snperiuten(i the shil)ment in per.~oil.`t~ tny eoiitract with the r'~ilrOad
comi)aliies was to forw'~rd all the go~(ls i~nreli~se(i oii tite ~Sth of ~pril
by the Governt'~ent to difl'~reiit poiiit~, aiid to r~eeive thei~ nil at tlie
s;inie time.  I have been for two or tlirce years reqnest~d by the Governji)e'it i)0t to ship aiiiinity.goads ii ptre~1s.  It has been doiie:
of the aniiuity-goods being d~ljvere~l at the ag~ney, and the Ij~diaiis
nrgil)g for their distribntion. Tii~y lia-~e doi~e it, iiid some wei'e ~leljvered
at diflcrent times.  Last year I wa instrnctcd to hold all the an!initygo~~ds uijtil the arrival of all of tlieii~, aiid iiiake the ~~elivery at oiie
time for tlie 1~ed Clond agelicy.  I was nrged to forward what goods
~vere here, atid over half had iiot arrived`it this 1)Oilit  l~ut I shipped
them, if I recollect right, iti October, all that were here.  Of thirty~even bales of blankets shipped fr~~m Philadelphia only thirty-five had
arrived at this point.  NVe shippe~l them to the agency.  I was here aiid
saw them shipped; two bales liad iiot aruived, but they were seiit for~vard upon the next train after their arrival.  It was believed, or it wa~
stat'~d at the time, that two bales of blaiikets had been stolen  while
the fact, which I have ex;iiiiined into this s~)ring iii 1'hil'ideli)liia,
proves that they were not shipped at the s~'iine time ho in 1~hiladelplii'i,
and they were short by shi~)piiig thirty-five bales, aiid a few days after
ship~~ing two hales; but the two bales were niore than two weeks in
coining to Cheyenne.  To avoid such incotiveniences and such embarrassments at the agency, I have been reqi~e~ted to have all the goods
on hand before conimencing to ship tlie annuity goods.  P)tit my contract with the company this year was to ship tlie ~oods as fast as they
conld be inspected, and delivered to me in New York, Philadelphia, and
Baltimore, I to receive them at once here and pay the freight.  The
goods first shipped this year were allowed to come forward, and we
expected to receive the balance of the purchases immediately, but maiiy
and unnecessary delays were occasiojied in the iiispectioll of the goods
in those cities, and in the delivery.  In some cases goods delivered by
the contractors were refused and other goo~ls liad to be manufactured,
as in the case of your heavy duck furnished by Pilkins and Thomas,
as I am informed that the first delivery by them was not acceptable,
or of suitable weight; that they had to go to the ~Iouut Vernon ~Iills
of BaltimorePand manufacture tlie whole fot before th(~v could be delivered  and not uiitil the 1'~th of Augu~t were the last goods delivered to
ine; and I have received by this iii nil to-d<'iy from the 1)epartnielit these
bills of lading.  Now. these goods could not be delivered aiid reach
here any sooner, unless the (~overnineIit had delivered them to inc, as
a -reed to do, aiid they Ii`id iiotified me to be present to receive
them aiid ship them.  Every pouiid ot good~ this ye'ir ieceI~ ed b~ in~
lias been loaded and started the day of their arrival aiid delivery to
me.
Q.But there were twent~ -two cai -bats of goods lying here when we
got here; why was that ~
Ttie duty of the Kansas T~aeiiic I~ailroad Company is to f~~r'vard
those goods, and to put the iii iii ~t~re it hot received from the cirs by
iiie., or by tlie Goveriiineiit  Aii(l you will fiiid til)01i their "ird of iiotifi~'i ion of tlie arrival of the gonils thit uiiles~ received withiii twelityfoni lioiii's they will be stoi'ed; all of theii' iiotices show this.  They 
544
did not store them, bnt l~ft then~ in the cars, becanse they have frequentiy and ii~variabiy requested ~he contractor to back his trains down
to tlie cars to receive his goods fr&~m the cars to avoid the expense of
haiidling the goods by their employc's, and when coiivenieut I have invariably done so.  I would take m~ trains around to the south side of the
railroad, receive the goods from t~e cars, an~l start them east.  Now,
there has been no detention of these goods, because I would not start a
pound of annuity-goods had I been here myself, unless I had been instructed to do so myself by the Department.
Q. Do you mean to say that the annuity-goods were standing here
then~
A. Mr. llarris, there were not twenty-two cars full of goods, but there
were twenty-two cars having annuity-goods in them; they were all annu~'tv~ooods; no flour.  These goods have been shipped; some of them
are now being loaded on the trains.  None of those goods were loaded
on the trains without being inspected, to my knowledge.  They could iiot
be becanse it is tlie duty of the storekeeper to weigh every package,
because he could not otherwise have given me my bill of lading.  It is
his duty, as I understand it, to receive all packages and weigh them before turning them over to me; aiid when he loads my wagons, I must
necessarily reload them.  I am paid by his weight, provided that weight
holds out at the agency, but in the case of bacon and corn there is a
per cent. which I understood to be allowed for shnnkage; that per cent.
has been 2~.  If my load holds out within 2~ at the agency, on these
two articles, my way-bill is expected to pass.  The storekeeper never
loaded any goods without weighing them, to the best of my knowledge.
The following is a bill of lading:
CllEYENN~, J?ily 16, 1575.
Shipped, in good order and condition, by D. J. McCann, per cattle train of T. M. Sawyer,
to be delivered without unnecessary delay, to B. A. Howard. United States Indian agent,
Spotted Tail agency. The said D. J. McCann paid the freight thereof at the rate of —
per 100 pounds.
The said T. M. Sawyer having signed three bills of lading, one being accornplished, the
others to stand void.
Marks: B. H. Howard, U. S. Indian agent, Spotted Tail agency. Articles, 461 sacks of
bacon; weight, 57.312 pounds.
T.M. SAWYBR.
This way-bill which the wagon-master delivered to the agent, and in
this particular case the indorsement is" Spotted Tail agency, Nebraska,
August 3, I~75. Received on the within 461 sacks 54,967 pounds bacon,
leaving a discrepancy of 2,325 pounds between amount called for on
bill ot lading and amount received."  ire receipted for in g~~d condition
the same number of sacks, but did not receive the same number of
pounds, that being the effect of shipping new smoked bacon in hot
weather.  That loss with the exception of the shrinkage falls upon the
contractor for ftansportation, ai~d the l~acon costs you, laid down at
Cheyenne, ~l3.9() per lOt) pounds.  I will be allowed 2~ per cent. on
that, while the loss was over 4 per cent., and I will be held to pay the
Government the difference.
Q. ~Yhat is your contract for transportation between Cheyenne and
Red Cloud?
A. Between Cheyenne and Red Cloud it is.~l.65.  Between Cheyenne and Spotted Tail agency -~l.75 per 100 pounds, for the whole distance, for this year.
Q. Your contract last year was what?
A. The contract last year was ~1.20 per 100 pounds per 100 miles.
This year it is for the whole distance.  I charge for two linijdred and 
r~45
t~ve1ve ~~i1e~. a[tiountiug to over.~2.25 foi' tlie w1)OI~ dist;tiice fL'on~
Ch~veni~e to the ageii~y.
Q.ilas there beeii a stateii~ent (~fld an (~d~t1StIfl(?Ht of yonr tianspor
t'ttioii (`~C~O[il)t for tlie last yeai'~
~.TI~ere has I)Ot been.  I e1ain~ that I ain CIltItlC(I to t~vo l~tii~dred
aiitl t\~ elve iiiilts for reas~)iis ~`hieh I ~viII.~tate to tiie (`()110!I)ittet if yo~i
will;tll~~w inc to do so.  Iii 1S71, when tlie t~ed (Jloiid a~eiiey was on
the I? l(lttC 1~iver, tlie distance as fixed by tlie Goveritiiieiit was one
h~~ii~lied aiid thirty-two miles  froiii (?lteyenne to thc Spotte~i T~ti1
n~eiicy. theii called the ~Vhetstone agency, the distai~ce was two
httiidi'ed aii~l tweiity n~iles as fixed by the (?overnnieiit.  I wis tlie con
tr<-l(~t~~r f~~r tlie ~Vhetstone agency aiid (?otiii~issioiier NN~alker of the Ind~(~II 1)epai-tuieiit having ti-aveled over the route from  Cheyeniie to
tli('tt;i~eiiey. allo-ved two huiidre~1 aitd twelity niiles, aiid ~)ay1i~e1lt was
iii;i~Ie IceOldingly.  In 1S73 the I~e(i (Jiond agelicy was reiiiovedtroni its
tlieii locatioii on the Platte 1~iver. to its present locatioii 011 tlie ~Vhite
~~ivertlie distance as rei)orted ~}y Illsi)ector I~aniels was eighty n~iIes
ijoitti. The one hundied and thirty-two miles atid the eighty ijiles as
rej~oited by Iiisi)ector Daniels`na~le two hundred ~`~nd twelve miles.
~Vheii iiiaking the contract to tlie Red Cloud agelicy, after tlie removal,
I claimed two hundred and twenty miles as having beeii allowed ne by
Commis-~ioner ~Yaik-er, in I$71 and 1S72. Tlie Department called tlie distance one iiniidred and thirty-two niiles, and eighty miles, and insisted
ul)on fixing that in the contract at two hundred and twelve miles, in
stead of two hundred and twenty miles.  I had ii ever been over the
route in l)erson, and it was so agreed. ~~fterward iii 1S74, I thiiik early
in that year, it was claimed by the then Board of Indian Commissioners
that the distance was not over one hundred and eighty-eight miles, in.
-~teid of two hundred aiid twelve n~iles as specified in tlie contract. Tlie
niatter was relerred to tiie ~ttorney-~eiieral iii the settlerneiit of my
`~ccoui~ts.  It was decided that tlie distance having been fixed by the
(?ov ernmeiit. atid never ha~- ilig been measured, was conjectural, and
that the paynieiit should l~e iua{le for two huiidred and twelve miles in
;iceor~lanee with the contract  that was for the year 1S74.  The Secretary of the Interior eltimed that if the ~listaiice was less th~'ii t\~ 0 huiidred and twelve u~iles, as stated in the contract, a proportioiial reduction should be niade  and a t'oii~put;ttion was made in the Indian
Oflice of what the difleictice would amount to from  tlic ti~ne tliat thi~
question arose until the end of the fiscal year.  Tlie ilifference between
t'~o hundred atid twel' e and otie hutidred and eiglit~ -eight ~~ould be
twenty-four niiles, and the freight on the go~~ds carried duritig that
I)eriod of tinie was susl~euded, that i~~, the iui~~iiiit of ticiglit, amountiiig to, I think, in tlie uei~"hboihoo~l of ~7,()()().  It was agreed iii
~~~4, for the riscal ~ear of 1~~4 ~, that the di~~tance ~hould be incas
iircd "ith an odometer, by the route actually traveled by the traitis.
The C~o~- ernment caused otie measurement to be made, aii (1 tlie distance
~vas found to be by that ioutc over two liuiidre~1 aitil twelve miles.  I
tliiiik it`V as two hundred atid t'v etity- tliiee 1) v t lie first ni easnreiii ciit.
Instead of allowing my accouiits oii tlia~, all of lily tr'in5pOrtatiO1~
accounts were suspended utitil a secotid meastiremetit could be made
and in the second measurement the distance was two hundred ai~d twetitysix mi~lc~ and a receipt given iiic accordingly.  The matter was still
iiiisatisfactoiy to the Del~artiiiciit, atid it wis agi'eed that I should
icceive freight on the two hundred and twelve mili~s Jor ill goo(ls ti-a~ispoi-tcd up to that tinie  that was iii Noveiiibcr.  I rt( t i~ (I iio freig~itin oil t-y for all goods transported the fiscal year eniliti   utic ~() 1~ 4,
37~ I F 
546
Ul)til NO~~UIfl~)(~1 of t1i;~t yQ~'4U ~I1(I tbei~ I rtceiv~(i ~j~y at t\V -~ 1iuiidre~I
(~U(1 t~v~Iv~ n~i1es. TIie rivtl!y tlieii aro~~ b~t~v~en the to~vi~s oi (2lieyenne
;iii&1 Si(IHC~~, Oil the ~~iiioii ~~~t(~fi(j I~ai1i'oid,`is to the ~list;iiic~ bet~'eeu
tlie r{sl)~~ti~~e j)i~('C5`iii~l tIi~ Iii~liaii;i~f~II('i~s ill ~oi)i~)etii)g foi' tlie busin~ss of those a~~eI1('ies.  Si~iiiey alleged tlj;it they had ~iia('e the n~easiluelnelits aiid that tlie (li~t't1)t'C ~~~S O!lC 1inii~1re&t aii~1 sixt'y-tl)ree tijiles
fr~~ui there to tlie 1~~C(1 ~`l()u(i a~~1)('y.  ih'tt ~v'is the first alleOltioli.
(?lieyeiiue thei~`illege~i tli'it they h;~d iiiade a ifleiSuremeilt, (~Ii(i th;tt tlie
I~5t('tHC'C ~ls sonic OllC huii~lred an~i forty~six iiiiles iii a direct liiie to tlie
`igency.  ~idiiey tlleH tll(Jil''lit thIt they ~Y()illd do one bettei', aiid alleged that they 111(1 I1i'i(~C`iiiother ni~'~sureinent,`~iid that tlie ~listaiiee ~v~'is
one huii'lre~1`ind f~rt.y-fi'~~e miles.  To tlie best )f tily 01)ifliOll aii~l belief,
iioiie of those iii~~'isiireiiieiits \VC1.C iii;itle ill ~()od f'.iitli, aii&1 I ani iiiforiiie&1
thit iiot Oil ()t theiii ~~a~ lii('i(~C iii tlie i out(~s`ictually traveled by tralis~ioi't;iti~)ii-tr'1iiis.  Iii Februiry 1S75, I a~l~lresseil (`t coniinnilie;itiolL to
the Qt)Ifl lii issioiier Of Iiiili'iii Atl'iirs, aii~i ret~iiesteiI that a terry in ght
be 1~l;ieed`icross tlie I~l'itte l~iver, sonic (li5t'lii~C belo\v tlie old I~C(l (Jiond
`igelicy " hich niight be n~ed i~y tlie traiisj~ortatioll-coiitraeti)rs by the
niilit'ti'y', aiid f~r ei~n~iiiu!iie<'itiOii betiveen tlie tivo ~~e~C~C5 (`i lid (Jheyeiiiie
and Siiiiiey.  Tlie same e~~iiliiiniiieation ivis iiiade by tlie ageiits of the
lespeetive ageileics.  Tlie i~iiitary deeliiied to iiidorse it, 011 Hieground
tIlit they had iiot tYlflds to pay for the bnil~liiig for the ferry.  During
the lil()iitl)5 of ~Iarch, April,.~lay, Jniie, aiid July my traiiis have been
traveling the ri~ad to the 01(1 1~~eI Cloud agelicy, theii up tiie river to Fort
I~aramie. })`iying ferri.'i~te at Fort Lirainie 011 ~`liat I understoi~~l to be a
~~overnmeiit bOlt aiid thence to the I~ed Cloud aiid Spotted Tail agencies.
~Vhat that distance is I do not kiio'v, but I have held ~Ir. Chade.~ i~.
Clay here to testify before tlie coiiiuiission uiitil this niorliiiig.  ~Ir. Clay
lias golie with his traiii, which should have left last week for the Spotted
Tail ageiicy, and would not wait aiiy longer, but he has handed me iii
1)eiici~a stateiiient as to what his evidence will be: " To the old 1~ed Cloud
agency, one hundred uiiles- to Fort Laramie, at the ferry, thirty miles;
from Fort Laramie to the Ite~1 Cloud agency, by the route which he
calls going down ~~~hite 1~iver,' eighty-eight iiiiles;" aiid iii making ill)
that eighty~eiglit mile~ he ~tated the diflereut stoppages which would
iiiake up that distance, by that route which we have used for five b~oiiths
out ot the year, and which would make, by Mr. Clay's statement, two
hundred aiid eighteen miles. This is tlie distaiice which we traveled during the season of high water of the Pl~itte. That is the way we traveled last year and aic  oin _ this year.  Tiieie are two reasons why
they take the easterii ai~d niole roiiiidal~out w<'iy, iiistead of goiiig to
Fort Laraniie direct by the mail-route.  First: The i'oute to Fort I~:iraniie from Cheyenne by the iii;iil-route is a stiff aiid h;ii'd road-hai'~l oil
cattle es~~ecially.  Our fi'aiisportation is doiie by cattle,`ind it is very
har~l on tlie feet of cattle aiid freighters I)r('fer tlie ~tlier road for tli'it
reasoii.  Seconil Freigliteis h~ve~lost a great deal of stock by the iveed
known as the poisoii-weed, which is abuiidaiit oli either ~iile of tlie road
between here aii~l the Cliug-w;iter. Ag'.iiii: The lower road is iiot so hilly.
It is salci toi li~ a~ ily - lo'iile ii ti ain~ th~iii tli~ ii este iii ro;id. J))( it iii t lie dry
seasoii, wlieii tlie traiiis t'{~ril the Platte 1~~iver, iiear the old l~ed Cloud
ageiiey, they turn iiiiiiie~liately dow it tlie river to the east.  No loaded
ti-am his cv ci trav ele~l tr~~ii~ the old I~ed Cloud agency to the present
ageiley by the m'.iil-ri~iite, by reason of tlie lie~ivy saii~1 iiorth of the Platte
ltiver, between tlie PI-itte I~iver aiid the ~Vhite i~iver.  I have seen it
st<it~'d in the t)'ipei's thit ive did not ineasnie the di~tance b~ the mail 
547
route and that we went down the river SiX OU ~even mile~.  I have
travel~~~I it jll person up to Novetuber`0, 1S74, an~l kIi(~'v ti~at 110 train
e"ei left the Platte River at a 1es~ listaijee thIll ~1xteen iiiile~ fi'()nI tlie
()ld I~ed (Wioud agency.  I ani infornied by iny ti~eigliters that no;ie of
tliutii ever left the river at a poii~t farther west at iio tiiite, and the dist;tnce from the old 1?ed Cloud agency to tlie l)oint of (l~~'l~tnrc from tlie
1'lltte liver is from sixteen to twenty miles, de~endiiig nj)oii the con(litiOli of the roads at or near that I)oint.  Now, I wish to snbiiiit to tlie
coll)lnission that if those sixteen miles or twelity niiles, a~ tie case inav
l~e. ()in~ directly east, or following the bank of the river from tlie old
Rt'd (;?lond agency, is n~ade to avoid th~ heavy sand divi~le between tlie
T\vO ivers, the same distance niust liecessarily be 1n~(1e in goilig back.
i li~tve traveled it in person, an~l I ha~-e tiaveled tlie n~'til-ronte iii
J)(-1~()!1.  I have clued it to tile old Red Cloud`tg-~11cy O1)C hutidied
ii'iles a~~d from there to Red Clon~l agelicy, if you go by Fort Laratnie
;~iid floin there to the present Red Cloud`1~~~cy, olle htiiidred and
tit.te~~ii n~iles, by going by tlie easterii detoni', aiid tl1(~t is tlie road over
which I lilul n0y freight.  I ~~ish, ag<'iiii, to state thit this statement
iveil to me by ~Ir. Clay, which lie wishes to testit.~ t(), reters to a road
~~liicli I ii ave not traveleil over, wholly in I)CrsoII.
The following~nained gentlerneii have bee~ travelii~  tlie rojil for tlie
last two years: Richard Dniiii, Charles ~lcEwei', Cli;irles Lovejoy,
Jn;11i ~~igil.  ~Iy contract for this year is, for tlie whole distaiice, at so
much i~er h nn~li'ed pounds.
Q.Ilas that balince which was suspend been i)aid you?
A.No, sir. I have freqneiitly aj)plied for it but it has ne~-er beeii pai(l.
Ttie difficulties of a contractor for traiisportation, or any other contractor,
by having the moiiey which he is entitled to receive suspended every
month, aiid often for many iiionths at a tinie l~y the accounting officers of
the Goveriiment, are such as calinot be readily understood by the meinbers ot this commission.  In a con I) try where ii)oiiey is worth l~ and ~
i~er cent. per mouth, ttie suspelision of twenty-five or thirty or forty
thousand dollars for inoLiths is a gleat loss and a most serious iiiconven en ce.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.Do your teams travel 110w, iiii~ler your iiew colitract, tlie sanie route
which they traveled when tlie colnpelisation was by the mite?
A.Until within a few days the traiiis have been tn~veliiig l)y way of
Fort Larainie, to avail themselves of the ferry at that poilit  but now I
iin(lerstand that the river his falleii so that fordiiig c;tii be a~comt)lished
at the old Red Clon~t`i~Cn~y, and then they will travel the same route
which we call the eastern itetour, iiisteail of the western. That state of
things existed under the old ~Oiitric t.  The l)uttiug in of a ferry by the
~~overninent, at an expeilse of ~:3,(~()O, was il()t ill(IdC., aiiil all einploy~"s,
freight.contra~~0~5 aiid age ii ts have to coiiie bv way of F()r t hiram Ic,
or else cross the river in a caiioc at tlie old l~'cd Cloud agelicy.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.~~~hat do you utiderstand the ilist;~iice to be flom Sidney to tlie
1~e~l Cloud agencv by the freight-route?
A.I believe it~to be oiie huiidre~l iiid si~ ty-seven miles.  Siiliiey is
oiie hniidred and five miles east of Chey eiln(-; biit tlie ol))ectioii to that
route is two stretches of saud or dry ro<iil- oiie of tweiit~\~-eiglit niiles
oiic ot tliii-ty miles; and - liow e~ e~ l)I(lCti( abl~ f()i hoi~~es (tilil mules,
it 15 hot a sat~ ro~ite for cattle, bv reasoii of tlie w'iiit of`v'ttcr.
(?- You h;ive objections to making Sidiicy tlie l)oiLIt ~r tet~ai~tnre 
)48
A.  I 1)~tV( obje~tioti. f)r t~vo ~e'0~0flS: Fir~t, tlie it~1iO(~d e,oiiip'jny ha~
000 ~otivei)1~1tee~ ~t ~itItiey`(ti1(~ S(COIl(~. ill ~rt)s~iI0g tIio~e t~t~ stretcbe~
~f s;tt~~1y fold ~ve lose ~ g'reJt I~J Il~ C'(~ttlC for tite waitt of water ill
tue iry SCt~0fl.
~Ir. HARR~S. I bave iii 1~y h.~fl(1 a iCttC~ (ljt(~(l (?lteyenioe Atogt~st 10,
184. to the elosiiog par;~grt~~I1 of which CS1)CCj~tl1Y I \Vish to C~LIi your
attetltion.  fltit I`viii retd tile letter.
(j~llFYENNE. ~V~i)MlN~, An~iist 10, i~74.
DrAR SIR: ~N~  iiav  ti' ne~v  of  lie tl~tir as yet. fnrther titan a telegram from  tlte agent
at Giltoore. that voti vere l~a~liiig ijie car on Saturday.  ~Iiis lot of tive ears`a~as intended t~
keep the ag.~flcy        till ~lartin could 1tnt in the ~vhole of Ijis 5,Ut?() sacks.  I have as~nred
the aetit that this shituld gt foi.~vard ~vithont iclay  atid as lie 15 to be here to-morro~V, I fear
ite ~~ill be out of patience.  Plea~e iiif\~rtu ine just when we tilay depend on tlie whole amount.
Yt~u may di aw on me at thirty days. interest added.  I have no interest in the niatter, further
titan kee1~itig tlie a~encv supplietl.   I woud like to have your tigitres on 5.5U0 sacks for
NVliet~tttue agencv. ~i be  ltippe~l rirlit along as fast as yott can mattufacture it.   It is for the
titractut. at Sal tit P~tul, aud lie ctl'4.~2, ill doulile sacks-such as will pass inspection. lie
offered at same price at Sioux ~ity, atid it secms to me we ought to furnish it as low as
they cati.
~~lie object. On u0y part. is to secure tlie fr~igbt. and if we fnrni~h it this year it will
necessarily cstitbii~h this as tile p hit of sttp~tly. and we may titake sottiething un it Iteteafter.
Do the best you can, atid advise nie in regaid to both points at once.
Yours, truly,
D. J  McCANN.
0.P. Ht~~ro~n, Esq., Omaha.
I would like an explanation of it.
~YITNE5S. ~Iy explanation of the closiotg paragrapli is this: ~ir.
Thierriman, who I un~lerstood to be the co~~tractor for flour, to be delivered
at sonoe point, say Sioux City, for the N'~hetstone agency last year, came
to Cheyenne about August 1(), prior to the writing of that letter, and
applied to me for transportation for flour from Clieyeniie to the N\Thet.
stone agency, provided he could secure the flour as cheaply here as he
could at Sioux City.  I gave biin the rate for transportation from here
to ~Vhetstone agency.  I don't recollect now what that rate was, but it
was a 1orivate rlt~ between tlie contractor for flour aoid myself, aiid he
gave noe the figures at which he was offered tloe flour at Sioux City, and
stated that he thought Nel~ra4~a ought to furnish the ~onr as cheaply
t~s Iowa.  I told hini that I would correspolod dttring his absence with
two or three millers 010 the line between this and omaha.  I think yon
will fiu~l the same letter to ~Ir. I&oeioig of Grand Islatid, aiid perhaps to
John II. Green of Ouoalia asking them to deliver the ~our as low as?\Ir.
~1erriman's bid at Sioux City, atid olt conclusion sayitog.  we iooay
on~ke.~onoethiug upoii it loere'.ilter.~' That is, I meant tlie titillers of Xeht'aska ought to furtoish tlte flour at the ageticy.
(~.Is it nevertheless true tit at tiie Government loses the amount of
ftei'~ht between Sidney atod (?lteventte?
A. No..~ir tite r;ote is the saufe-titat is, the railroad rate froni Ouoah~
is the sanoc to Clieyettue as it is to Si(~uey.
(~.D~t you know, from your own observation, how much an ox will
drink when he is very thirsty
A. I have weighed cattle twelve hours after feeding and watering,
then w~tered tltetu and weighed them, and the difteocuce has heeio ftotn
thirty.flve to forty-five pottitds per ii cad on herds of one an~l two hun~lred cattle.  I once delivered a iterd of 1(,5 stall-fed cattle at Last Nebt-a.~ka City, after titey load been allowe~i to drink freely out of the
river, and the questioll of weight arose. I offered to allow thitty pounds 
549
per head, and the buyers demanding sixty pouii(ls per head, it was re1~'.red to cattle-dealers, and lorty pounds per head were deducted from
the gl-o~s weight.
(~.Did you ever furnish any harness for tlte I~c~i ()lont~ agel)cv?
~. I furnished one harness ft~r Red ~1oud ltin'selfl  In reg<~r:{ to the
articles spoken of by ~arclay ~Vbite, I wish to state to tite eomJutsslon
th(1t those articles came ill front tlie nortit,;ttid were not titider uty contract, ati~t that I am not resj~onsible for the delay, they beiiig iij~idental
sl1i1~1t0eiIts made by the Departniei)t, ttu~1 of which I had no notice, and
Tor which I was not responsible.
Th( following ~re other letters from 1). J. ~IcC;ttin to 0. P. lIurford
which are introduced as evidence
CHEYFNNE ~Vvo~, Ae~nst 14, 1S74.
DEtI: Sttt: I have your favor of the 12th instant.   Dr. Saville, tlie agent, is here.  Re is
not at liberty to modi{y the contract for flour in any respect.  Tlie contractor has put in 1.775
sacks at cost,(-~2. 50) delivered here, and has not made a cent, but has iost money.  I do
not know that I can give you the 5,5(Jt), at $2, but suppose I can.  I havc no triterest in
the niatter, whatever, but want to keep the agencies supplied. I will take one car extra, that
is one car over and above the five cars, at $2~l0, to be delivered September Jo.  It must
contain 2-25 sacks in order to fill out the 2,000 sacks.
Yours, truly,
D.J. McCANN.
0-P.HURF6RD, Esq., Ornaho.
CHEvENNE, ~Vvo., Ai~gast 20, 1S74.
DEAR SIR: I have your two favors of the 17th and 15th iitstant~ ~ve cannot make a
contract for the 5,500 sacks flour till we hear from the Departutent on the subject.  I am
confident we shall need it, hut we must take our chances., You seem to labor u~der the impression that the flour already purchased is for my account.  It is for Mart tin, and I allow
him the benefit of my contract with the Union Pacific to pitt it in.  I have not received a
cent on the flour, and will not till we can collect in ~Vashington.  You had better draw
for the three cars at thirty days, and I will remit for tite last car ordered.  Can you plot in
10 acks good corit-meal in the last car, in liett of the sante number sacks flour?  Do so,
if yottcan.
Yours. truly,
D. J. McCANN.
0.P. HURFoRD, Esq., Omoha.
CttEvENNE. ~~vo., August 26, 1574.
DEAR SIR: I have accepted your draft for $466.40 atid $5.6)) int~reat;tn~l di~cottnt,
niaking`5472.03, which aittonut I charge you.  Seveitteen sacks of car 5046 ltas been
rejected. and all the miscellaneous lot which was evidetitly pitt itt to fill otit the carload.  I fear the other two cars will be more closely inspected on this account.  The
iveights were short, and the quality of the rejected s:tcks very itiferitir.  All your
Anchor ~.lills was good.  I won id suggest that yoti send no ittore of qie miscellaneous.
ilease credit nie with $1.36 and 36 cents, $1.72, overcharge of interest.  I make interest
on 466.40. 33 days   $4.27.  Have you the sample of flour furnished by you to tite
I)eparttneut in June?  I cats send yell the sample we have tore, atiti which will guitle
tite inspection, or you cat arrange to h;t'~e tite flour itispi-eted (I'S l()('idOd by Inspector
Vl'tikstn. This is upon the supposition that yott cotitract for the 2.275 sticks.
Yours, truly,
D. J.`\~IcCANN.
(~). P. HURFoRD, ~sq., Oniaho.
CIIEYENNE ~~`,0., Aziast 27, 1574.
DEAR SIR: Yours of the 24th is at hand and contents noted.  I retuin memoranda
lieten ith. The arrangements you propose wotild not be satisfactory.  The object is
to have the flour come under my annual fleiglit contract with tlte Goveruttient; I
have no flour contract, and am only authorized to buy so as to deliver tinder usy
cotitract for transportation.  Tite trouble with your bank is, that I am d~~itig bustness with tite Omaha at d not with them.  I owe them nor any other party a dollar on any
of uty contracts here, p st or present: and the trouble with tltetit atid I>. ~. ~Vilson is that
I do not see fit to do hui iness with either of them.  1 this contract is de~irable to you and
yell see fit to undertake it, you can ship to "J..J- Seville. United States Indian agent, in
care of D. J. McCann," and let tlte charges follow the flour. so tittit the flour attd~freight 
j5O
~vi'l all l~e ptii'l to~utl~er.   TIje th~~e ~iiy~  diaft ~~~a~ intett~le~1 to allo~v tin~e for in.~pection.  In
tii~  liitt(~t ~!i~o ~` ~ ~~ ii it  ~ieut  ~i   p~y. provldit~g ilit  ilour  pa~es-~~'hic1i it ~~-ill if yoii
(~ii4 &)t' yOttt 0" ii n~:~tiiitai tUIC!ifl4 ()f it    tiod ii riiiitl~ty it  y~tlu have. itetotoflite.
l~l~it~~ t~l&gro~ih n~e  I   (it do tiot 4t~~iri t(t f~'riti~lt till!lle~C tertits, as I de~ire to Qlo~e ~vitli
itt )it~r iartie~.  It ~ (iii`10 di ~(`lit  ~iiil!tlUit)(i~itil(ltl!ii-'i  I t'(~itit'itt lt~  r(~ttirn ittail.
N~i iii's, tuulv.
D. J.  Mu(?ANN.
(). P.  IIi'p~or'~ E~'i~, ()~~qq
~`iiFYLNNE, N~~yo.. (N'Iob~r 2.'3, 1~~4.
I)i  ~ti ~iR:  ~tittr     fi'~t~i'tlity rt~~"ivotl.      \~`ill ~tay di..iff  (iS (~00fl  itS pr~soitt~il. aitil
tltitilk ~oti fttr itt tt'itt ltii t() tiit  ttt;ttt~r.
~(tll cliii Itavi  tt~il il;i~ it) 1tttt ttt tltt. 1.101       ack~. but do sbip t'vo cars ininiciliately.  I
t'toti,~ht it wi  t~n tlt~ uctil.  Ir. llr~iit i~ t~iit of 1l(ttlt.  Tli~ ~~`h(tIo i)f it iiiitst go firnard
its soon its yoii (~it ti Itti~~it ily slit p it.   i~ut all your force lit work.  ~~~i will ittoSt Ilkel(V
ortl~r liii ~~tit cat    itt p ti ir soil!   titite to cttnt~.   ~1ti1t r ~vo cars  it onco.
1t'irty-oi,~lit ~atks of ytiiii tltittr i tcoi~ ~d by ~N~ltito  ilts Ittoit rojoctod.  ~~riitd it a little
~L'ti'.
Yotir~. truly.
I).J. ~tcCANN.
;)  P.  lIt~p.i t lIlt  I'~~'j.. )tit'i~iii.
T~:5TI~IONY 0'? ()i LOULGE SlI EfDLEY.
By the C~~iu~IAN:
(?uestiou. ~Ir. Sh~idley, please state your place of resideiice ai~d busi
IleSS.
Answer. ~Iy bonie is ii' San Antonio, Texas. ~~e are starting a cattle.ran~h in this c~uiitry  There are three brothers of us, but I do
iiiost of the business. Our buMness is driving cattle from Texas; we
bave been engaged ill it since 1S71.
(~. Do ~on reme~~iber selling ~Ir. Bosler some cattle last seasou ~
A.  Yes, sir: I soul ijim three thoua'id head during tire seasoji of
1S74. The season ends about the 1st of September.
Q.  ~Yeie they cattle which you had driven up that season?
A.  Yes, sir; they were cattle which had been dnven 111) aild had not
been wintered here. They got a frw wintered cattle-about otre hundred. ~Iost of the cattle they got!ftom us were steers: I think there
were aliont three irundred cows. ~Ye drove nearly all beef.eattle last
year-Texts steers, four years old and upward. They got iro sto(~k
cattle; we kept them  ourselves.  NVe took out all less tiran lbuu
years old aird wintered them here. ~Ye had a herd of three thousand
two hurrdred, all under four years old.  ~~~e have sol(l him about six
thousand head thts year. They were steers and cows.  The steers were
four ~ ears old and upward. ~Ye delivered these cattle 011 what is called
the horse (frock I~anch, on the iiorth ~ide of the Plat{e, this year. The
others were d~liv ered <t littJe above, about w here ~liilnnOy 1~ock is ori
the North Pl(tttC. Thcy were delivered all along, wherever their C'l~~
happened~ to be.         Ir wiedac of tire weioht of cattle to be able
(? Htt~ C yoir S uffici~nt k 0
to say, with (lIlY de~ree of certainty, what would be tire average weight
of the heid of ~attle you so~1 ~Ir. Bosler last season?
A.  ~` eli, ir, I thiirk they would average orre thousand pounds; they
were all iii gooil order, ind were al~out as good cattle as came up with
tiie Texastiains. Tirey were more than all average-above tic average.
They were four yetrs old and upward.  ~Ve had no  scaiawags~' alnong
them. 
551
Q Now, ~Ir. Sheidley, I nuderstand that you ii ave not oi~ly driven
cattle up here frou~ Texas, but you have wintered cattle here.
A. Yes, sir  that is, we have liad theni here.  NVe do 110'. ~tay iicre
ourselve~: we have Ilien here.
(~.Are you able to say ~liat is usually tlie coadi~ion of cattle oil
the range in this country as late as aloiig iii tlie 110i(ldle. of N()vefl~ ber?  Are they in as good order as at aiiy tinie iii tlie sca~oii
A. Yes, sir. I shipped some last flill to Chicago for beef, which came
oft t[iis range, and it is not as good a range as tarther no~tli. and tli'.~y
were in good condition.  They had been driven`ip tlie year before iii
tlie same herd with those we ha~1 501(1 to?\Ir. Bosler.  They were cattle
we had in our herd, and were ill good order, suthcieiitly so to ship t~
market.
(~ ~~hat did you get for your cattle last year?
A. ~~e got.~tS for beeves and.~11 for cows last season. The average
weight for this season is about tlie same, if itot a little heavier than last
yea?.  I think I had heavier cattle this year.  I had some bigger steers.
I took hiiu soine the other day which I know would weigh eleven liun dred pon ii (15 gross.
By ~[r. FALLKNLR:
Q. Do you recollect what time in 1S74 you sold ~~r. Bosler these cattle?
A. I thitik it was in July.
(~.Had you a!0y o1~1~ortunity of seejil liis entire herd during the fall
~of 1~74
A. No, sir but I have seen a good many of liis cattle this year; some
before he received them, and some after he received them.  I ttiiiik I
siw about five thousand, and they were an average lot of Texas cattle;
all grown cattle.  The cows would weigh nine hniidred pounds, and the
steers about eleven hundred or oiie thousand.
Q. N\~hat did yoll get for your cattle this year?
A. For part of them I got $20 for beeves, and for some of the beeves
I got.~lS, and for the cows I received $11.  I sold six thousand head.
I don~t recollect how maiiy cows were delivered this year.  I think we
delivered him three thonsand beeves, but I don't recollect the number of
cows.  There will be about four thousand beeves and the balance cows
but no young cattle.  I have never seen c.attle here that could be called
skin ai~d bones; cattle from this tiiiie now oii will keep gettilig better
until November or December.
By Mr. HOWE:
Q. Have you seeii the Mabry herd?
A. Yes, sir: I have seen a good many of them before they got then'.
and I have seen a herd of three thousand head.
Q. What per cent. should you thiiik were cows?
A. I could not tell you that.  I did not look at them closely.  The
first herd I saw of one thousand head, I should judge the largest half of
them were steers, and they were a very nice lot of cattle.  About tlje
others I cannot tell you.  The portion I saw were mostly steers, an(i
the last lot I saw were mostly steers; the steers are geiierally ii tlie
lead, and those I saw weie nice-looking cattle.
Q. What part of Texas do your cattle come from ~
A. The southwestern part of Texas.
Q. How do they compare with cattle from tlie east~r1i or sontliern
part of the State
A. Well, I tliiiik they are better cattle than those ft~m the southern 
o5~
an~1 ea~t~rii pait of tlie State they ~()!~e ofl a 1)CttCU ralige ~vith better
~`F~55, aiid`i~( ~&~i~~~ually iii better flesh.
~~L ~~~1i;~t tlid yon 5'~~ tlie cattle yon sold this y(~ai~. cows aiid steers,
would ~VC~~~C?
~.  \~~ell I slioul(l thiiik tlie cows on aii ~VC~'1~C, would  ) iiine huii&lr~d pounds that is iuy udgiiieiit about it`111(1 tlie steers will go teii
huiidre~t and over  tikilIg tlieiu right up oft tl)C ~~~55 without water,
tud without lottiii  tlieno they would average that iioncli.  I shipped
last year t() Q~lI~C(t\\O tlie saiue class of cattle, ~hich averaged niiie hundred and sixty polilids aiid they were not so large.  Bosler woii't take
small cattle  he wou~t take a steer that will weigh less than nirie hundred pouii~ls.  None of tlie cattle I seiit to Chicago were over four years
old.  The first herd which I took up, Bosler picked out the snoall cattle
and drove them down to his raloge to keep. lle said they would not do
to take ~l) to the a~ency.
Q. I)id you sell him tlie smaller cattle at a less price?
A. Yes, sir  at a less price.
(~. llow inuch ~
A.  NVcll, he got them at wloat that kind of cattle brings otit here, ten
to sixteen dollars for two to three year olds.
Q.  Have you aloy interest in the contract of ~Ir. ThIabry?
No, sir  noiie whatever.
(~. Had you any arrangement with ~~r. ~Iabry that he should sell
your cattle for you in New York last year?
A.  ~~ell, if there was, he made it with my brother.  I am in no way
connected with ~Iabry.  I sold him some cows last year; we deal with
with him here.  NN~e brought here about twenty-three thousand cattle
-this year.
Q.  How much do these cattle cost you before you start them ill
Te~as
A.  ~Vell, they cost different prices.  ~~e pay for them here, and get
them from differeiit n)en.
Q.  N~~hat did you pay for cows and four-year-old steers?
A.  ~Ve pay -~9 for cows delivered on the Arkansas River, aiid $16 to
S17 for steers.  The Ark~iu5a5 is in I~ansas.  ~Ve do not buy them iii
Texas, but we buy them to be delivered at the Great Bend of the Arkaitsas.  Hei'etofore we bought theni and drove the in oniselves, but this
year we bought them delivered.
Q.  ~Yhat do you think would be the price of these cittle there in
Texas.
A.  The price there a year ago was about -~7 iii gold for tlie cows and
~-12 in gold for the steers.  This year we did buy oiie herd, and paid
$13 for beeves  and tbat is the oiily i~5t'i~~C wherein I knew the price,
and that we drove.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. From your exl)erieiice as a cattle-dealer, do you tliiiik it possible
for a noan to furuish beef delivered at the Indian agencies every month
in the year, in due proportion, at $2.47 per hundred pouiids, oii the hoof,
and noake any niolley out of it
k I could not answer that question.  It would l)e a no crc matter of
figures.  1 don~t know what his expenses are, an~l have no exj)erience
in that way. 
553
TESTIMONY OF ~~AJOR T. II. STANTON.
By the CHAIRMAN:
()~uestion. You are a payma~ter in the Ar!ny I beli~ve
Answer. Yes, sir.
Q. ~tajor, were you at Red Cloud (Lg~n~y last Novenibe'.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see the issue of beef made there about tlie i~id~lle of Nove niber.
A. No,sir.
Q. ~~~ell, did you see the beef-cattle that were recei~-ed there last November?
A. I saw some cattle that were there.  I saw tlie herd which came
Ul) to be issued in November.
Q. N\~ell, did you observe that herd of cattle?
A. Not specially or parti~ularly; 110.
Q. Could you say of the beef-cattle that in any way they were i}oor and
thiii?
k N\e]l, they looked, some of them, thin, but in a fitir conditioit.
Q. N\That kitid of weather was it at that time?
A. Very severe cold weather.  They had a severe snow-~torm while
I was there.
Q. Did you see the cattle weigl~ed or any of them?
A. No, sir.
Q. Could you be able to say whether those cattle were of average
size or not?
A. They were small, thin cattle that were issued to the tribes there,
I remember.
Q. ~Vere they as large as those of the ordinary herds of Texas beefcattle which they have in this couiitry?
A. Yes, sir; I should say they were.
Q. ~Vere you there at the time of the issue of annuity-goods,such as
blankets aiid dry-goods?
A. I do not think there were any annuity-goods issued there at that
time.  I don't remember anythiiig of the sort in November.
(~.Did you examine the sut~plies there furnished to the I~jdiatis?
A. Yes, sir.  I was present at an issue of supi)lies.
Q. Did you obser~e the coffee which they had?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~Vhat kind of coffee was it?
A. I thougltt it was tlte poorest coffee I had ever.~eeii.  It liad black
aud imperfect grains, anti pebbles anti gravel, nixe~l til) with it, I remember.
Q. Did you observe it close enough to say if there was aiiy considerable portion of it which was tin tit for use
A. I should say it was (~1ll uiiflt for use-that which I saw issued.
There were no whole or perfect grains  ill it.  T'tking it as a mass and
judging from the coffee issued to the Army as a standard, I would say
it was unfit for use.
Q. Can you say how it compares with the coffee which is sol(1 in cominon stores iii this coni}try to tite poorer class of people?
A. ~Vell, it is very t~nch inferior.  There are two gr~tde5 of coffee
which they use in the iL~~i~, one which they sell to the officers and the
other is issued to the t~'oops.  One is Java ai'd the other is Rio.  If I 
T)54
was to pick over the coffee for use I think I woul~~ l)ave to throw away
t'vo-tliii'ds of it.
~? i)i(l~y()fl exautine the 510~'~~ there
~.Yes sir.
~? ~\~liat kind of sugar`v;)~ it
~.~\~el], it w~s`L v~ry CO'L~5C juility of bI~)'v11 ~iigtr, aiid seeme~l to
ine to ii ave dirt ii) {t.
Q.Did you taste it?
~.Yes, sir.  It was ritty. Tl~at is all I ~lis~~overe~l.
~? ~\~as that all the defe(~t you saw in it ~
~.Ye~, sir that is all that I ren~ember now.
~? i)id you see any of the flour that was i~sued
~.Yes, sir.
~? ~Vhat kind of flour was that ~
~.The flour was very ~lark and poor  I should say of a very poor
quality.
Q.T~id it seem to be made of Sound wheat?
A.No, sir. It could not have been made of Sound wheat, I imagine.
It smelled bad; had a sour smell not a smell, either, of being in a
wet sack but it seemed to me to be tl)C result of bad wheat. I do not
kl)ow what was in it but it seemed as if it was made from buck wheatfull of b1.ack specks, as though there might have been a portion of it
buckwheat. I could 100t tell exact0y what it was.  I do not think it
would make sweet or wholesome bread fit for any one to eat.
By Mr FAvLKNLP~:
Q.~as there any evidence upon the sacks which showed that it had
been inspe~ted?
A.There were no brands or any Inarks upon the sacks at all. I remember seeing upon sonic of the bags the letters U. S. I. D.
Q.Did you saniple more than one sack ~
A.Yes, sir.  I looked at a great number of the sacks, and they were
all of about the sanie quality. Iwas there about a half a day. I saw some
l)ork issued there, an~l it ~l5 very thin and ~)oor.  A great deal of it
looked as if it was half rotten. I smelled it, and it smelled bad, and
seemed to be spoiletl. I saw some of the tobacco that was issued. I
iiever use tobacco except in a cigar, and could Ilot say much about it,
except that the plugs were very wet and heavy; yo~~ could take a plug
aiid bend it double and it would iiot break.
Q.Did you see any of the plugs opened?
A.No, sir. No further than that they were taken lip and bent double
without breaking. I did iiot see any plugs oi)ene(l.
Q.Did you see while there aiiy impropriety in the conduct of the
a~int or any of his empl~ve's?
A.Tlie agent himself was not present at that issue of supplies; tlie
issue was made by clerks entirely, and it seemed to me that there was
110 metho~l or system by which it could be ascertained how much was
issued to the Indians. They did not weigh what was issued.  I was inside the warehouse with the clerks, and witnessed the whole issue. It
seemed to nie as though there was no way of telling whether tlie Indians
got their lull sup~~ly, or whether they did not; and when the issue was
completed, it would be iluliossible to tell whether they had received
in ore or less. No sugar was weighed  the flour was in sacks; the bacon
was iiot`v~~~rh~d.
Q.lIow was the sugar dealt out?
A.An Indian would conic up with a card which purp~rted to say that 
505
be was e~title~~ to draw ratioiis for so many Indians; they would ~tber
np a sack of flour and  55 it out to hi ii). and a piece of bacon would
also be thrown to him  he sugar wonid be takci~ lip in a shovel and
}~assed np to the counter and tl~e squaw would take it iii h~~r apron or
iii a sack. or in a blanket. I sa'v a squaw take up her l~l;iiiket, and
they would toss tlie sugar into it.  Tlie sngar w'js ~liovele~l t~y a scoop.
I d~ii't know whetljer tlie number ~r 5~OOI)s ",~5 couiite~l  they w~~nl~l
(1i1) their seoop into the barrel`~ud tliio'v out whatever they l)le.'ised.
Py Mr. llARRiS:
Q. Do you know that the scoops were iiot counted?
~. I do not; to me it seciiied as if nothing was weigbc~l, ai~d tl~ey
~~ould not have been accurate, because sometimes the scooops were flill
(`I iid sometimes they were iiot.
Q. i)o you know that those meii are experts in handling these things
an~I can tell exactly how much each scoop will hold?
A. I do not, but they could not be accurate. It seemed to me that
the system adopted by General Crook for the Apaches would have been
tar better when he issued to the Indians there, which was every fifteei~
lays. The Indians assembled at the stockade and were counted by two
or three officers, and the actual number of Indians present verified, and
rations were issued to the actual number present-so many pouiids of
heef, so niany pounds of corn, according to tlie number there. There
were fifteen hundred Indians there, aii d every Iiidian had to be present.
Q. How could that be done with fifteen thousand wild Indians scat
tered over a country fifty to three hundred miles distant from the
a~eu cy?
A. They ought not to be scattered. I think it possible to feed the
~iidians who come to be fed, and those who do iiot coiiie should not be
fed. I think they all should be pi'eseiit on the issue.day.
Q. How would it do for the chiefs to come and receive the rations for
each family or band?
A. That would do very well if the exact number of his family were
known; if they were first registered, and the actual nuniber a~eertained.
By the CllArnMA~:
Q. ~iajor, have you read Professor Marsli~s statement or charges iii
reference to the Red Cloud agen~y?
Y Yes, sir.
Q. ~Vell, are there any matters as 5ttted in that paml)lilcf of Proicssor ~1arsh about which you caii give us any information, aiiy further than
what you Ii ave stated?
A. There are a great many poiiits about whidi I cannot speak, because I know nothing about them.  He states that I have said that I
saw Indians iii a starving condition, aiid eating their ponies; thit is the
only thing he says I saw.  I did see that it was on tlie Bordeaux
Creek, this side of Spotted Tail, a~)out ten miles. They were the Bi~ul(
Sioux. It was in March last.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. How many Indians were there when you saw this?
A. Well, they were camped up and down the creek.  I don't kiiow
how many.
Q. Did you know anything of tlie cause of the scarcity of l)rovisions.
there at that time?
k I did not kiiow the ciuse of it. I knew there was a ~carcity.
(~.Were yoti at Sp~~tted Tail agelicy at that time. 
55(3
A.Y~s, sir.  The Indi'~ns there sai~l tl~ey lI~I(I riot had ally beef for
forty-five ~lays,ai~d those ~vere the Illdi('IflS`vh ~v~~re tarviri~. TIie
Army oilliccrs at Si)otte(l Tail said that it ~-as tru that tlie Ill(lI(~Il5 had
hot beer issued beef for forty-five days, and that they were starving.
(). Did you see the agent at Spotted Tail on ti <tt tri1)
A.No,sir.  I saw the actilig age lit, ~Ir. ~~~illard he did not say
aiiythiug about the scarcity of ~upplies there.
Q.Are there any other matters in Professor ~Iar4is stateiiieiit about
which you can give us ally otl~er information, or can yoil refer us to
other parties, who cari give us iiiforrnation?
A.~~~ll, there are men here in town who know more about these
thiiigs than I do.
Q.Please name them.
A.I had a letter froin a gciitleman here in town, who was very anx~ous to ii ave this commissioli know about the mailagelnent of iffairs at
i~ed Cloul andSpottedTail agencies, and who wasalso very anxious not
to ii ave his name meiitioned in it.
(). Do you know of ally other persoii who would be 1ikely to give us
any information ~
A.I have the names of soiiie other parties, and I will send them over
to you.
The CllAIRMAN. N\~e will be very much obliged for the names of these
parties, or any other persons who call give us any information.
By Mr. ATHERTON;
Q.You have had an opportuiiity of observing the general coiiditiou
of things at Red Cloud ~
A.Yes, sir; I have.
Q.N\~ill you state what facts have come within your own observation,
and wbat impressions you have received from them ~
A.From the issues which I have seen made to the Indians, and the
management of aff~Lir5 there, and the expressions of the feelings of the
Indians in this matter, it seemed to me that there was no system or
nietliod in tlie De~artinent there, as compared with that in use in the
Army, so f~r as it relates to responsibilitv for public property and
flinds.  As I said before, it seemed to ine that there was no way to tell
to how many Indians they issued supplies, or what qnantity they issued
to them; there was no chec~ upon it; it was generally done by clerks,
and sorne of them I know to be bad men, or at least to have bad reputations.
Q.Are those men now employed there
A.I don't know that they are now employed there.  There was no
system used there like that in tlie Army; no acconnt~bility for sup
plies, &c.
By ~fr IIARR~5:
Q.llow many issues, such as you have described, have you witiiessed
at Red (?iou~l?
A.NN~ell, I ii ave been present at a number.  I don~t recoll~ct how
many  perhaps half a dozen.
Q.Do you know that it is claimed by those clerks that in bacon th~ey
can judge within half a pound, by lifting it, how much it will weigh
A.I do not know anything about it. I saw bacon issued iii slices, and
sometimes they would issue it in whole pieces.  I don't know that they
elaini to be experts in guessing it.  The tobacco is issued in plugs.
Flour is issued in whole sacks, not generally broken.  The only articles
which are issued that way, and which should be weighed, in my judg 
557
mer~t, are sugar. bacon, coffee, and beans, none of which are weighed.
Everything is weighed in the Army. Beaus geiierally come in bags and
are issued out in so many pounds. I did not know what the scoops coutained in weight.  They were not weighed.
Q. ~Veli, now, in regard to the Ijidiai~s eating their i)ol0ies, how many
Iii~lian~ (jid you know, from your own observation, were starvii~g for food
ajid were eating their ponies?
k I was camped on the Bordeaux, and there were perhaps thirty
lodo-e~ iii the Indian camp where they were eating tl~ose ponies.  They
were all eating pony-meat.  They liad a number of poiiies and were eating them  there were perhaps two hundred Iiidiaiis.  I sa~' tlie l)oiiies
tIlit they were eating. I saw them cntting the n~eat out of the ponies.
Q. Now you have said the Arniy officers tol(l you the saiiie thing; do
you know what means the officers bad for ascertaining that fact?
A. ~Vcll, they were stationed there, ai~d I had no reason to doubt
their word. and they told of it.  I thiilk I remember of their saying,
also, that the appropriation for the fiscal year endii~g June 30 was exliansted, ai~d there would, probably, be 110 more cattle issued.
(~.~~hat officers told you this?
A. Captain Sartorins, of the Third Cavalry, told me this. Lieuteiiant
Rogers, of the Ninth Infantry, also told me about it.  Captaiii Sartorius told me iliere had been no issue for forty-five days.  I did not
ask Mr. N~~illard,the    clerk, about it.  I had no conversation with hilli
on the subject, but I told the officers there at the post, and they said
there had been no beef issued there for forty-five days.  I did not speak
to the Indian agent or to ally of his clerks about the Indians starving
and eatiI~g their ponies.  They would not eat their ponies unless they
were starving.  I thought they were eating them to keep from starving.
I saw they had nothing to eat except the ponies in their lodges. N\~hen
beef has been issued it is generally lying al~out their tepees.  They were
short ol' other supplies too.  They had no flour, coffee, or bacon.  I saw
110 dead Indians.  I saw no Indians sick fiom tlie want of food.  I
heard a great many of them say that they were very hungry, aiid they
were holding their hands over their stomachs.  I did not make this
statement to Professor ~Iarsh.  lie has seen it in the newspapers.
~~heu I canie back the agent of the Associated Press at Chevenne
asked ine what I had seen, and I told him of these tliiiigs.
Q. Have you ever had any correspondence with Professor ~Iarsh?
A. I had letters from him every week.  It is very likely I might have
told him this.  I had coniniul~icatio1ls ~vith Professor ~I'ir5li before that
time.  He went with me to the I~ed Cloud ag'eIi('y.  I i~iivited hiin fi-om
New Haven to come ont here and go with lile to the fossil region we had
liscovered some tinie before.  He was pursning that study, aiid lie went
along with me in my 111Q55 to P~ed CloH(l.  lie ai'me~1 aii exl)edition there
himself.  I did not go with l~im from Red Cloud.  I went oil to Sl~otted
Tail. I was l)resent with him at the issue of sup~~lies in November.
Major Burt w as with me.
Q. ~Vas Major Burt present with you at the time you saw the herd of
~`attle driven iii
A. I thiiik he was.  There was ~fajor Burt. General Bradley, some
officers from the l)ost, and Professor M'irsh.
(;~. You describe~l some )t tl~ese cattle (`15 tlliil ill flesh, but on the whole
as fair, iii a flir conditioii
A. Yes, sir.
~~. Did you see any cattle ill that licid w'iich coul~l be designated,
pro~~erly, as ~v.'ilkiiig skeletoiis? 
~58
A. No, sir.
(~.~N~as aii~ r~iii'ar1 1i~.j(~( l)~ yourself I~rofessor ThI'ti'~1i, ({~enera1
Pr;IdlQy, or?\1~jor ~~t~rt`~t t1I'1~ tiII)C, of ~hi~h tI)e 1)001', leIll condition
of t1ie~e cattle ~vas tlic ~ll})jCt~t
A. Yes, sir; it ~~a~ i'ctuai'kt~(l that tlie herd of cattle ~v;~~ much inferior to tl~e cattle ~v1iich were ~~sued to the Army  ait iiiferior quality
uf cattle  that 1~'t11~ of tlien~ ~voiiid iiot ~veigh over six hniidred poniids
gross.  There were soille sijiall c;ittle iii tlie herd.
(~.~id that reii~ai'k rcfer to cattle inferior in size.or in flesh
A. It refcrred to both.
(?.1)i(i yon see ally steers or oxen which, in your judgment, wonld
~~eigh as little as six hnndred pouii~1s?
A. Yes, sir; they in'i~ have been young o))e~.  I s'~w cattle as yoni)g
as tl~ree years old-I should say oiie-third of them or over.  Two-thirds
~vould, perlial)s weigh n~ore than that; soiue of them ~~onld probably
~~cigh ei~ht ii uiid red poniids.  I have iiot had exl)eriel)ce iii weighing
cittle, so as to be able to judge closely. I have seen a great niany cattle
weighed, but never had chirge of the in myself.  From  iny exl)erience
iii sceilig cattle weighed I would say the cattle weighed that much.  I
c'iuiiot say liow it happeiied, after seeing the Iiidians starvilig 01) the
creek,`iiid being at the agency within a tew days, that I did not inform
the agent or some of his officers. I supposedtliey knew it. I (lid not feel as
if it \Y as ally of my business.  There is no unkind feeling or want of friendshil) ~~etweeii myself aiid the agent or the officers at the agency.  I do
not tliiiik there is any persoiial feeliiig toward the agent by tlie officers
of the Army.  I tl)ii)k there is a general feeling among the officers of the
Army stationed at this 1~ost that the agents are not thoroughly honest
in their niaiiageineut of Iiidiau affairs.  Of niy own personal knowledge,
I kiiow of no act which I could designate as dishonest ainolig the officers
of the Indian agency. I don't know that any officer at the post knows of
any dishoiiest acts being committed.  I should judge that they have,
from their conversation. (4eneralJohn E. Smith is one officer whom Ihave
beard make such remarks; and he probably knows more about affairs
there than any one else.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. lIave you ever heard of any other instance of the Iiidians eating
their ponies
A. NQ sir; not since I have been here, and I have been here three
~~ears.
By ~Ir. IIA~Ris;
(~ ~~~`is it not a very severe wiiiter in this region?
A. It was.  I have never exl)erieiice(I so severe a winter iii ally coulitry.  It was the severest wiliter ever kiiowii by the residents of this
con iitr~~.
CllLYENNi~, W. T
~~dne~d~iy, t~~gi~st 25, 1S75.
Present:1Iol).TiI(~MAS C. U'~~Tcii~R, chairnian; ll~~n. U). ~Y. llARRIs,
I~ou. (wi~A~LEs J. FAULkN1~i, lion. TtMoTiiY 0. 110 WE, aiid Prof.
GEORGE NV. ATilERTON.
TESTIMONY OF JOliN F. COADq
By the CIlAiRMAN:
Question. Mr. Coad, where do you reside?
Answer. At Cheyeniie, I~aramie County, ~Yyoming Territory. 
559
(~. How long have you resided in Cheyenne?
A.On and off since 1L~6S.
Q.~Vhat bnsiness have you been eng<~ged in dui'iiig th.~t tiiije ~
A.Transportii~g Indian sui)plies fl H(l stock-grow iii g.
(~. ilave you fi'eqnently beeii to I~e~l Clond agc!iey ~
~.I have beeii freqtieiitiy t(-) thc old one, 011 the I~lat te.
(~. It~'tve you been to 1~ed Cloud age!lQv silIce Di'. ~`tVille hIS b~~eu
agent there ~
A.I have not.
(2 Do you kiiow anythin~ of the supI)lies recejve~l here fl~r t!ie I~ed
Cloud agency in the Sulnmel', fIll and wiliter ot' 1574?
A.~Vell, not much.  I have seen some of the supplies.
~2 ~Vhere did you see them~
A.I saw some here in the warel~onse and so~c on wagons on the
w;ly t() tite agency.
~? Dj(l you ever examine the quality of any of these supplies ~
~.I dl) not know as I did.
Q.~Vell, ~Ir. Coad, you uliderstand the object of this colnnijssioit,
which is, to investigate alleged frau~ls and irregularitie~ ill tite gencial
conduct and management of Indian sul)I)lies here.
A.Yes, sir, I understand it.
Q.If you have any knowledge of ally improl)er coiiduct iii that respect 011 the part of tl~e agent, ny of liis ellil)Io.~es, or alty c0lltfltctor
or freighter, we would be much obliged if you would give us that information.
A.I have not got any.
Q.Do you know anything of ally suffering among the Indians dunng
last Winter or last spring 1
A.1 doit't know of alty, except that I beard that they were su~ering.
They have always bec~i sui'ering since I hi-st knew theiii.  It has been
the same story all the tilne, and I paid no atteiitiou to it.
Q Rave you been to Spotted Tail agency recently?
A.No, sir.
Q.Do you know anything of the affairs at Spotted Tail agency ~
A.I doii't.
Q.Mr. Coad we invited you here to talk with us about these matters
npon a snggest'ion niade to us by a gentleinaii who sul)posed that you
knew something that the conlulission would be desirous of learning in
respect to these matters.
A.~~ell, I don't know of anything that Won 1(1 be of ally i)articillar
benefit to the cOlninission.  I s1l1)l)ose he {)rob'Ibly reterred to Some cattle that I delivered to Mr. Bosler this sprlllg.
(2. How many?
A.A little less than four hundred head.
Q-~Vhere did you deliver them?
A.I delivered them on tlie itoith side of tlie Nor~li Pl;itte, about fifty
or sixty miles below the old l~e(t (Jlou~l ageiic~-,`ibout ol)t)osltc (Ooui-tHouse i~ock.
Q   ~Vhat kiiid of cattle were tl~osc
A.  Good.
~2- Beef-cattle?                                                It'
A.  J~eef-cattie.
~2- Steers?
A.  Steers and cows
(2. About wl~at Proporti~~ii was tli~rc of cl)w5?
A.  ~\`cll, I titilik there was pretty ilcar a half but I ~lon~t know cx 
.`L(~t]y.  I wis ~ot pres&iit at the d~1ivery  they were ~~ie1ivere~~ by my
()I~(1(?F.
~? llave you sUfliciel0t experience in sn~}~ matters as to be a~4e to tell
prettv iie;irlv ~ liat wonid i)C tile a~er;~~e ~veight of those cattle
~.  No  I co~ild iiot tell the averige weight.
(~. ~Vere the~ as lar~e as Texas cattle ot tli'it class usually are
A.  Some of them were aiid some of tbeii~ were not.
~? ~Vhat proportion of them were large?
A.  ~Vell, the cows were very large.  I lon~t know that all of the steers
woi~ld run as large as tlie nsual ruii of Texas beef-steers.
(? ~N~ere they f~ur~yeir~ol(l5 and up'v;ir(l
A.  No; they were three and four year olds aiod upward: soii0e of
them were npw'ird ~~f Ibur.
I niiderstaio(l yofl delivered those this s~~ring?
k ~~es, sir; on or about tlie 15th of ~Iay of tl4js year.
~? ~N~hat`v-is their eoutliti~)n as to fle~h
A.  Their coioditiou as to flesh was good.  I load been through the
herd aio~l rounded them all up and saw about all of them a few days
l~revious to their delivery.  I was eutting out beef for Chicago.
b)y Mr. HARRIS:
Q.  ~Vere those cattle that had been wintered here?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  Cattle that caine froiu Texas last year and were wintered here?
A. Some of them caine from Texas last year and some had been on
the range two or three ~ears. They were wintered cattle, all of them.
Q.  Are yon a stock-grower.
A.  I am.
Q.  ~Vere these cattle whieh you yourself had had in your possession
~ince the last of May ~
A.  I had them from eight months to two years.
Q.  flew much did you get for your cows ~
A.  ~21.75 per head.
(~. And how much for the steers?
A.  Steers tlie same.
Q.  You sold the whole for.~21.75 per head ~
k Yes. sir.
Q.  Can you give 1)0 estimate as to their probable weight?
A.  No, I don't know that I could
Q, Do you thii~k that they would weigh 900 pounds gross where you
~~elivered tl~em without lottiiig them?
A.  I don't ki~ow; they would run pretty close.  I have had 100 experience i10 weigl~ing there. 1 load all my weighiiog done in Chi~~ago.
(? flow n~neh do you estimate they would weigh gross in Chicago?
A.  I don~t know.  I had not shi1~ped any of that kitid of cattle.
A.  Have y(~n no knowledge concernilog tlie character and quality of
goods shil~ped to Red Cloud niod Siootted Tail agencies?
A.  I have no kiiowledge as to the quality of them.
Q.  Have you conimnuicated at any tinie to Colonel Staiitou aiiy information as to tlie afl~airs of either of these agencies?
A.  I don't know as 1 have.
(? flave you g~en loim any statement of your knowledge concerning
these matters?
A.  I have not.
(~. Do you say now that yoii have 100 knowledge of any irregularity
or fraud committed upon the Indians or the ~overnment by agelots. con 
5(31
tractors, freiglit.contractors, or other l)ersons; or that which seems to
you to be evid~nce of fraud or irregularit~-f.
A.No; I don't know as I have. There may be in regard to the question
of (listance; but I have no way of knowing whether it is so or not.
Q.liave you any knowledge of the distance fro~ here to the agencies,
by the road usually traveled by the freighters?
A.I have no knowledge of the distance; I have no means of saying
what tli~ distance is.
Q.lIave you ever co'itracted to transj~ort freight to any of these
ag~ii ~~ies?
A.I have to Red Cloud agency for two years.
(? ~~hat is your estimate of the distaiice to Red Cloud agency?
A.~Iy estimate of the distance, and the distance the Department
j~aid us for, was one hundred and thirty-two iiiiles to tlie old Red Cloud
a~eucy; aiid I would state tlie reasoil why that distance was allowed.
This road which is kiiown now as the lower road was not oj~eit then.
\Ve carried goods by tl~e way of Fort Laramie.  It would be oiie hun.
~lred miles to Fort Laramie~ and thirty.two miles from there to -the old
I~ed Cloud agency.  The dista;ice I got allowed for from there to the
01(1 \Vhetstojie agelicy was eighty miles; which is about teii miles
further tha; to the present new Red Cloud agency.  So that tlie dis.
t'in~~e from Cheyenne to the new Red Cloud agenQy by that estimate
would be two h~udre~l and two miles by the way of Fort Laramie.  By
tlie lower road it would be a}~out one hundred and sixty or one hundred
and sixty-five miles.  I consi~ler the latter road a good, practicable
road.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.Do you know anythiiig of tlie sale of any Indiaii supplies by any
;~geIit, store-keeper, or einploy~?
A.I do not.
Soon after the foregoing examination had been concluded, Mr. Coad
volLilitarily re-appeared before the c~minissiou and said:
\Vhen you asked me about the supplies of last year I forgot to state,
it regard to the beef, about seeing ai~y of it.  I have seen two herds of
~Ir. Bosler\s beef-cattle, one was about the 8th of August, and the other
was oil or about the 15th of August, 1874.  1 notice~l one of the herds
ill particular, the herd of August 8, delivered by ~Iabry & ~Iillett.
They were a No. 1 lot of beef-cattle.  ~Iy reason for noticitig that herd
~( (!lo~~ely was that I had to ride through the herd several times, looking
for some of my cattle that were in their herd, and I noticed the cattle
very closely.  I also saw the other herd tbat of the 15th of August, aii (I
they were a good lot of bee~-cattle.
By Mr. IlARRIS:
~? \Vho did Bosler get the last herd from?
A.Ellison & Dewes.  That is all on the beef-cattle question, I believe~  Now, as to the supplies.  Yo~ asked tue this mornii)g if I had
e'-er seeii ally supplies that were delivered to the Indians.  I Supposed
that meant the s~pplies of 1874.  The supplies of 1874 1 have not exaiiiiiied.  The supplies previous to that I have seen arid examined
closely; but I supposed you were asking me about those of 1874.  As
to the supplies of 1873 arid 1872, 1 examined the articles almost every
lay, in loading aii~l Shipping the iii.  Some of thetn were good, atid SOitie
`-ere Very poor.  The ba~on was good; as goo~l as we use f~r our niess.
?he coffee was of a low grade of I~io coffee.
3(; I P 
562
(? flow did it coin pare with the ordiiiary article sold iii r~tail stores?
k Not as good; not near as good. Ilie flour was veiW poor; that is,
the greater portion of it. There was so~e flour that was deliv~red by
Jo111 H. ~Iartin that was very ~OO(i C~ lIin0Ou flour, aiid th~ brand of
that fl~iur was "Little Blue ~Iills.~  That was ill the years 1871, 1872, and
1~73.  I closed my contraet oli tlie 30th )f June, 1873; that is, the contract f,r transportatiou for two years.
Q.Do you reiueiuber tlie other brands of flour?
A.I do not remember tlien~.
Q.~~hat was the character of the flour
A.Poor.
Q.When you say  poor' (~O you nican that it ~`i5 sour, musty, Unwholesome, or that it was a low grade of wheat?
A.A low gra~le of wheat; an~l some of tlie flour was musty. There
was oiie lot of flour that was forwarded by me from here, I think in the
sl)rii)g of 1873, to Agent I~isl~v, at the Whetstone agency, which I receipted for as bad aiid niusty flour.  ~Iy reason for recei~)ting for it ill
this way was that Agent P~isley had I)reviously told me that he would
not receive supplies except ill good condition, and had told me to receipt
for them as they were.
Q.Did not I~isley tell you that he had received a communication from
the Com~nissioner of' Indian Affairs, to the effect that the Department
did not intend to furnish No. 1 flour to the Indians?
A.Yes, sir; words to that effect.
Q.Now, going back to the herd of Auugst 8: You speak of the herd
lie ha~l of Mabry & Millett as No. 1 beef; ~vhat were they, oxen or
- steers mainly?
A.They were large beef-steers.  Some few cows I think were in the
bniich but not many; and some few three.year olds.
Q.You say that the other herd of August 15 was fair; bow did it
coin pare with that of August 8?
A.It was pretty near as good.  I consider the in not quite as good a
herd. They were a good lot of cattle, though.
Q.Di(l you see the sugar that was delivered in 1872 and 1873?
A.I did; examined a'~d tested it almost daily.
Q.What was its character?
A.Good.
Q.What color was it?
A.Well, I would consider it tolerably light.  It was about the best
quality of brown sugar.  It was better than, or as good, as we furnished
to our men that we had enip]oyed in transportiiig the supplies. In this
country we furnish them a very good article.  It was such a grade of
sugar as any family might use for table use.  I ii ave used it on the table
with Dr. Daniels.
Q.Did you see the tobacco that year?
A.I did.
Q.Do you know what its quality was?
A.It was poor; a low grade. -
Q.Did you see tobacco that was wet, moist, and sticky ~
A.Nearly all the tobacco was of a low grade, damp and sticky.
Q.Would you say that it was at all fit for smoking purposes?
A.I would not consider it fit for smoking.  A man would have to
have a good deal of 1 ibor to cut it up and dry it.
Q.Did you at any time see corn furnished to the Indians?
A.There was no corn furnished up to that time.
Q.Was any pork furnished to the Indians during that period?
A.No pork on these two contracts that I am aware of. 
563
Q.~Vere you a sub-contractor under McCann?
A.No, sir; I was the onginal contractor.  I had one coiitract to the
Red Cloud agency, and D. J. McCann had a contract to the N\~hetstone
agency.  I wou1~l state, in refere~ee to these contracts, that D. J. McCann aiid myself were in partnership, trans~>orting the supplies 011 these
two contracts.  lle got one contract and I got the other the first year,
and the second year I got the original contract and he did not get ally,
but we were still in partnership up to the 30th of June, 1873.
By ~Ir. FAULKNER:
Q.~Vhat were yon getting for transportatioll per mile?
A.We were getting, I think, $1.75 per hnudred ponnds per hnudred
miles for the ~Vhetstone contract of 1871, the distance being reckoned at one hundred and thirty-two miles, by way of Fort Laramie, to
the old Red Cloud agency, where the goods were delivered, on account
of trouble with the Indians.  The Red Cloud contract to the old Red
Cloud agency was $1.40 for the summer-months and $1.75 for the wintermonths per hundred pounds per hundred miles. The contract of 1872
to tlie old Red Cloud agency was, I think, $1.40 per hundred pound~ per
hundred miles the year round.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.So far as you know, to what extent is it a practice aniong tl~e
freighters to feed their hands off the agency-goods that they are transporting?
A.I do not know that it is a practice at all.  I have had some men
who would make a sack of coffee, or a sack of flour, or a barr el of sugar,
or a box of tobacco, where a mistake was made at one end or the other,
and appropriate the same to their own use, but that does not occur very
often. I have stated all, I believe, except about the soap and annuity
goods. The soap was of a good quality; it was good enough for Indians.
It was good common soap.  The annuity goods I do not know that I
could say much about, from the fact that they came here in very good
pack ages, and I did not see a great many.  Some f\~w packages were
bursted in unloading. Loading up the wagons I saw some of the annuity goods.
Q.llave you any sample or standard to judge by whether they were
such as the (xovernment purchased?
A.No, sir.
Q.What was the general quality of those you saw?
A.The general quality was good, fair; some were better than others.
Take, for instance, the blankets; some were better than others; and also
the hats, I think. Most of the hats I saw were soft, black hats.
By Mr. llARRIs
Q.I will ask you whether or not you have known any goods or supplies bought by freighters or sold by tlie freighters at this end of the
line?
A.It is almost impossible to do anything of the kind.
Q.Why impossible?
A.`veil, in the first place, the freighter had to receipt to me for the
goods that he received of me; and, in the second place, he ltad to leliver them at the agency, and get the agent's receipt for them, in order
to get his pay for transportation.  If he were to attempt to orer ally of
them here for sale, I would be very apt to find it out.
Q.Your answer does not quite meet the question I put.  I (~~ not ask
you whether or not goods were bought of the agent, but whether or not 
564
freighters or others bought goods of the Indians, and tben brought then
back and sold them.
A.Oh, I understand yOU now. I do not know of any. I would state
that I knew of one instance where a man took a load of goods up to th
agency, (I do not know but he hauled tl~e goods for me,) and in returr
ing Dr. Daniels discovered that he had a lot of Iiidiau flour in his
wagon, forty-eight miles from this place.  Dr. Daniels seized the flour
there, and had it sent back to the agency.
Q.Did you understand that that flour had been taken from the agenQv
or from the Indians?
A.I understood that the man had traded with the Indians for the
flon r.
Q.llave you knowii such aii instance to occur duriiig tlie adiniiiistration of Dr. Saville there iii flour or aiiy other goods ~
A.I have iiot.
Q.You would be likely to know it if it ~~`~5 a commoii practice here ~
A.I would be likely to know.  I have never heard of a,iy such
thing.
Q.Do you know Todd I~ndall?
A.I do.
Q.Do yoi~ know whether at any time he was in the habit of purchasing Indiait flour and sending it either here or to Sidney, or whether at
any time he tried to get it received again at tile agency?
A.I do not know.  I know one thing, however, that if the flour was
of the same quality as it was when I was transporting goods, a man
could not find a market for it here; the quality was too i)oor, with the
exception of one braud, (Little Blue ~Iills brand,) which was a good
quality of flour.
Q.Do you know anything else that you could communicate to the
commission?
A.I do not.
TEST1MONY OF GEORGE II. JEWETT.
By the CHMRMAN:
Question. ~Vhere do you reside?
Answer. At Spotted Tail agency.
Q.You are a trader there, 1 believe?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.ll~~w bug have you l~een at Spotted Tail ageilcy?
A.Two years and three mouths.
Q.~Vere you there last wiiiter and spring?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Do you know anything of tlie suffering of the IndiluS therethe starving of the Indians?
A.The fr~~ I knew of it was what I saw iii the I)apers-the Cheyenne
Lea~l~ r and Chicago Inter-Ocean-purporting to be a telegram from Col
onel Stanton.
Q.You had not heard ai~~ thing of any starvation amolig the iu~li~ins
before that time ~
A.No, sir.
Q.After that, did you`earn anythiiig about the starvatioii?
A.I heard one man!alkiiig al~out an Indian, or an Indian family,
killing a horse to eat.  ~~hat I heard was brought up l)y discuss 
565
ing what we had seen ill the paper.  It was in my store or office, I think.
I endeavored to trace it to a reliable source, but it was always secondhai~ded; somebody had beard somebody else say so.
Q. Have you oil any occasion witnessed the delivery or the issue of
beef there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know of the agency being out of supplies last winter or
s~~~ing?
A. I believe they wure short of sugar and coffee.  I think it was in
~Iardi. The trains went to the ~~Iissouri River for supplies, part in
the last of December and part about the first of January, and did not
get back until April, on accoui~t of the severe storms, and cold weather,
ai~d deep snows.
Q. Mr. Jewett, since you have been at the agenQv, or at any other
time, have you had any knowledge of any frauds or improper conduct
oji the part of the agent or any of his employe's, or aiiy contractor, in
reference to Indian matters at Spotted Tail agency?
A. None whatever, sir.
By ~Ir. FA~LKN~R:
Q. Mr. Jewett, are you able to state whether during last winter the
Indiaiis there were destitute of such supplies as flour or anything of that
kind?
A. No, sir.  At the very time that they were complaining of starving,
(I could make an affidavit. if necessary,) I was in Indian lodges, and saw
from four to twenty sacks of flour in a lodge, and they were then selling
it to wood-choppers or anybody who wanted to buy it, paying $1 or
*1.50 a sack.
Q. How far is the encampment of the Brule's on Bordeaux Creek from
the agency?
A. It is generally estimated at about twelve miles.  It would fall a
little short of that; about ten miles; from ten to twelve miles.
Q. Did you hear of any starvation of these Indians in the encampment on Bordeaux Creek?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know whether it was a habit among the Iiidians to sell
their flour?
A. Yes, sir; to a certain e~tent.  An Iiidian won't eat flour when he
can get meat.  I have seen them freqneiitly feed it to their horses.
Q. Do you mean to say that they would feed good flour to their
horses-what you would call ordinarily good flonr?
A. Yes, sir; I have seen them feed flour to their horses, and eat
corn themselves.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. In the winter would the Iiidiaiis camp nearer to the agellQv than in
the summer?
A. They were no n~arer last winter. They were encamped about as
near as they are now, or as they were when you were there.
By Mr. FAULKNL'R:
A. ~Yere they in the habit of comilig in from that encaml)ment to the
a~ency during the winter from Bordeaux Creek?
A. Yes, sir; they came in on -ation-days.
~N hcn they were thus collected at tlie agency, did you hear any
complaints of starvin~ an0ong th Indiaiis?
A. N), sir; not aiiy particular complaints. I have heard general com 
566
plaint~-that I have always lieanl ever since I have been at the agency
-that h~v don't get enough to eat; but no particular complaints of
any par(icular time.
B~ the CHAi~MAN:
Q. Th~ have always complained that they did n~t get enough?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. FA~~LKN~R:
Q. Did that person who informed you about the Indians killing a
pony and eating it undertake to state that upon his own information?
A. No, sir; 1~e said somebody else told him.
Q. Did you take any pains yourself to ascertain whether there was
any truth in that report?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~Vhat means did you take?
A. I asked several parties who lived in the vicinity of the agelicy if
they l~ad seen anything of that kind.
Q. ~~hat was their repiv?
A. That they had not.
By Mr. llARRis:
Q. Did not the information which you first received concerning the
Indian who killed his pony convey the idea that the Indian lived on
Bordeaux Creek~
A. No, sir; I think he lived nearer tbe.agency oil what is called the
Old Saw-Mill Creek, about two or three iniles from the agency.
Q. Did the informant tell you what Indian it was?
A. No, sir; I had beard that it was an Indian living on that creek.
Q. Did you make inquiries of the Indians living on that creek?
A. I did not.
Q. Or of persons who wou]d be likely to know?
A. I made inquiries of white men who have squaw families living iii
the neighborhood.
(? Could you get any confinnation of the story?
A. No, sir; everybody liad heard everybody else say so.
TESTIMONY OF CAPTAIN R. I. ESKRIDGE.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Qnestion. ~Vhat is your r'~nl~ and position?
Answer. I am captain in the Twenty-third Inflintry, and inspector of
Indian supplies at Cheyenne.
Q. liow long is it since yoii were appointed inspector here?
A. About the 1st of July, 1S7D.
Q. ~Vhat supplies ii ave you iiispected since you have been appointed?
A. I have insl)ected some corn and bacon and flour.
Q. That which you have insi)ected you have passed?
A. Yes, sir I have passed all of the stores that I have inspected.
Q. ~Vhere do you obtain the samples that you inspect by?
A. Of flour, I obtain the samples from the Commissioner of Indian
Affairs at ~Vashington.  Of corn and bacon there are 110 samples furnished; I am require~l only to see that they ar~ all sound, sweet, and
fresh, and a good merchantable article. 
567
Q. Captain, you have beeii statioiied here liow long?
A. Since the 16th of Sept~inber, 1874.
Q. Did you have occasion to examine any of the supplies that were
sent last season up to these Indian agencies?
A. I did not, sir.
Q. llave you be~n to Red Cloud agency?
A. No, sir.
Q. Nor Spotted Tail agency?
A. No, sir.
Q. N'~ell, captain, you have rea~l these cl~arges mad~ by Professor
Marsh in reference to the management of Indian affairs out here,
I believe?
A. I have, sir.
Q. llave you any information that you can give us in reference to
any matters stated by Professor ~iarsh in his pamphlet?
A. I have no personal knowledge of any of the facts stated by Prof~ssor Marsh.
(~.llave you any knowledge of any other irregularities or frauds or
misco~iduct on the part of any person connected with the Indian Depart.
ment, whether as agent, empl~ve', or contractor, which are not mentioned by Professor ~[arsh or referred to in his charges?
A. I have not, except a violation of one of the terms of the contract
for corn.
Q. Please state all that you know of that.
A. O;i the contract of Mr. J. T. Baldwin, 100,000 pounds of corn were
shipped to Red Cloud agency by way of Sidney without my inspection,
and presumably without inspection altogether, as I know of no other
person authoriied to inspect such stores.  The shipment was made on
the 4tli day of J uly, 1~75  On the 9th day of July 1 received a telegram
from Commissioner Smith, stating that that amount of corn had been
shipped through Sidney by mistake, and asking me to inspect it at
Sidney. I telegraphed back to the Commissioner, asking him from whom
I would receive notice when the corn was ready forinspectioi~ to which
I received no reply.  At that time I was not aware that the corii had been
shipped, but afterward I found that it had been shipped on the 4th of
July, as I stated before.  No one ever informed me that the corn was at
Sidney and awaiting my inspectioli.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.~Vas Mr. Baldwin or the shipper apprised of the fact that yoti
"~ere theii appointed an iiispector?
A.I think not, sir.
Q.llow long before that had you assumed that position here?
A.My impression is that the order detailing me is dated on the 6th
day of July.
~~. This corn had been shipped on the 4th?
A. Yes, sir; it left Sidn~v on the 4th.  1 may be iiicorrect in the ~ate
(~f the order detailiiig me, but I am liositive as to tlie date of the t~~le rqiii aiid tlie date of tlie shii)meflt of the stores from Sidney to Led
(JIoud.
(? ~~l~ to tlie period ot your appointtneut a~ inspector was there aI)y
otli r p~rson here who could have iiispecteA that corn, who was legally
(`iUthOi~ZC(l to do s~?
A.I k-iiow of no one who was required to i!i~l~ect corn here ibout
tli('i ti Ill C.
(? llow then do you reach the coiiclusion that there was any fraud, 
568
irregularity, or eveii al)y violati~n of coiitract in the tr'itisactioi~ to
which you refer?
A. It was irregular beciuse the contract re(iuiies that tlie stores
shall be inspected at such point as tlie Indiaii Othee i~)Qv direct. The
Ii~dian Office directed that it shoutd be iiispected at Sidiiey, biit it appears that it left Si~iney without ii'spection.  That is the iriegulirity I
refer to.  I know nothing niore of it.
Q. Did the contract stipulate t~or the ~lclivery of tlie corn at Red
Clond agency.?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. If the Coiumissioiier of Indian Aftairs, iti~inediately 011 heiiig
notified of its arrival at P~ed (i?lond, onlered it to be insi~ected there,
would you see any irregularity in that?
A. No, sir; there is no irregularity on the part of the Con~missioner.
It is simply an irregularity on the part of the coi~tractor.
Q. Had he, so far as you know, any notice that his corn would be inspected anywhere before it reached its poiiit of delivery?
A. I do not know, sir.
Q. No notice was ever given to the contractor, as far as you know,
that the Commissioner intended it to be inspected at Sid~iey?
A. No, sir.
Q. How can it be said that it was irregular?
A. I draw my conclusions from papers placed before ine.  I have no
idea that tlie contractor knew at what point the Comniissioi~er ititended
it to be inspected.
TESTIMONY OF LIEUT. EMMETT CRAWFO1~D.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. ~Vhat is your rank and position in the Army?
Answer. First lientenaiit Third Uiiited States Cavalry, ijow statiotied
at Sidney Barracks; I was stationed at Camp PtobinsoiL tip to the 17th
November, 1S74. I know something about affairs at Red Cloud agency.
I was presetit at the issue of rations to Indians frequently; tite rations
were not weighed out.  Each Intlyn presented a ticket aiid was sui~~)osed
to represent a certaiii number of persons; I recollect one relireselited
forty persons; they gave a certain quantity of sugar and c~~ffee into a
blanket or sack; it was tiot weighed; that was the mode of issue t() the
Indiaiis; the sugar waS tlie worst quality, dark and ~lauip; I did ilot
taste it; tlie coffee was green; I d~~n't know n~uch about the coffee.
The flour was very dark; have fl-eq neatly seeii the Ii)(li'liis fee(l it to
their ponies; I caniiot say niucli about the tobacco I do iiot lise it.
On October 26, Dr. Savile atteini)ted to erect a ila~-stiff at the
agency, and told me it was for the purpose of lettiiig tlie Indians know
wlieii it was Sunday, atid lor a sigiial for the canip in case of' aiiy
trouble. The Iiidiaiis objected because it looke~l too iiiucli like a iiiilitary cailip.  lIe ha&t the pole brought iii, and a party of the Iiitlians
canie into the stockade'   cut it up.  lIe told them that he would send
over for some soldiers an~l arrest them.  He seiit wor~l over to canip,
aiid I was seiit over ~~`ith twenty - three meti to rel)ort to lii iii.  I went
over ai~d reported to him. I made iio;irrests; lie did not lirect me to do so;
several hundred congregated there and were threateiiiii'~ aii~l sui'rounded
my palt~; Sa~ ille~as~ ely iluch excited; I tliiiik the comniutiication ~ent
to the coin in andiiig offleer foi- troops was hot a ~~roper l)aper.  lie told 
569
me afterwards that he wrote it ii~ a hurry. lie requested the com~oanding
officer to send a company of troops over there; rhat lie expected trouble
with the Indians.  That was the substa'ice of his communication.  lie
told me afterw~rds, when I went to the ageiicy, that he wrote it in a
hurry.  I thiuk, too, that he showed his weakness iii iiot having the flagstaft' raised afterwards.  lie told those Indians that be was going to
raise it, and I think that he ought to have liad it raised.
Q. lie iiever did raise it ~
A. No sir; he never did raise it, and lie never liad the In~liaus arrested.  lie told them that he was goii)g to have them ari'este~l.  I think
that he ought to have arrested then~ and raised the flag staff.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Iii what respect do you regard his letter as an iniprol)er letter?
A. I thiiik the commandiiig officer would have sent more troops over
if the J)octoi' had represented the actual state of affairs at the agency.
The commanding officer only gave me eighteen mcii.  I told hini that I
would like to have more, and he raised the number to twenty-six.  ~Ve
had five companies there at the time.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Did you observe anything else thit went to show you that he had
been guilty of any want ofjudginent in the management of that niatter?
A. ~Tell, sir, I thiiik he ought to have known beforehaiid that the
Indians objected to that flag-staff, and not attempted to raise it.  lie
ought to have been able to find out something from those half-breeds
around there.
Q. Do you think that he could, with safety to the ageiicy and to the
post, nnder these circumstances, have subsequently raised the flag?
A. I think so, sir.  I think it is the only way to deal with the Indians;
that he ought not to have given in to those Iiidiaiis tlie way he did;
that he ought to have had the flag-staff raised.
Q. i5 it your iml)ression that tlie attempt to raise the flag-staff for the
purpose he intended was an improper thing to do?
A. No, sir; it was not improper, and it~would have beeii a great advantage to have had a flag to signal; it would have beeii quite aii advantage
to the camp.  ~Vheu I was stationed there I used to have a l)icket overlooking the agency, and the flag-staff would have avoided tlie necessitv
of having a sentinel on the hill.
Q. N\~heii you reached there with the twenty-six men, befi~re you entered the stockade were you entirely surrouiided; were there three or
four hundred Indians. aiid were they mounted
A. They were all mounted and stripped, and whe'i they saw me coniing over the hill they coniineiiced to })ut cartridges iii tli cir gnus and
cock them.
Q. ~Vhen you arrived there were tlie gates of the StOCk (`1(10 01)011?
A. No, sir; they were close(l.
~?- Did you get them 01)011
A. Yes, sir.
(~.~Tho caused them to 1)0 01)0110(1?
A. There were sonic nieii iiisi(ie tlie civiliaiis were iiiside, aiid they
ol)ened tlie gitOs and hallo~~ed for 1(10 to come iii.  NVhei~ I got uii I disiiiounte~l, a~i~l theii they opeiied the gates iIi~~i(10 aiid liall~~oe~l to 11)0. (`111(1
I`vOlit iii. There were a ~iuiul~er of frieiidly tniliaiis doiiig (`ill they & ould
to I)revent tlie other Iiidiaiis froiii firiiig.
(~.flow bug did you remain afrer you went iii to tlie stock;ide? 
~7O
A. I remained there till ~ight; until Dr. Saville was thro~gh with
them.
Q. Did you get information from the~Doctor that he had org~uized a
force, and that he would undertake the defense of the agency?
A. Yes, sir.
~Q. What force did that consist of?
A. Of friendly Indians. I believe there were quite a number inside.
Q. Did the mass of Indians remain there dunug the day?
A. No, sir; as night came on they left.  They remained there all of
the afternoon.  I got over there about half past 2 or 3 o'clock.
Q. What conduct on the part of the Doctor~on that occasion, after
you arrived there, did you see indicating that he was weak, or incompetent, or excited?
A. Well, I went inside and had this conversation with him: lle told
me about the trouble, and he was very much excited at the time.  lle
is naturally, however, an excitable, nervous man.
Q. Was there any act of his which you can now call to mind, which
indicated that be was incompetent to meet the emergency?
A. Wdl, I do not know about that.  I think if there had been no
troops there, we would all have been massacred.  I think they would
have killed everybody at that agency.
Q. It is quite likely the D~ctor shared that fear with you.
A. I think he would not have attempted to raise that flag-staff if our
c~mp had not been there.
Q. What did he do that day which was out of the way?
A. I do not know as I saw him do anything out of the way.  I had
a talk with him; he was excited and nervous.
Q. Were the friendly Indians about him?
A. There were a few inside.
Q. Offering to protect him in any way?
A. No sir.
Q. Do you know who those men were?
A. I~ed Cloud and Red Dog were inside, beciuse, ~ think, they were
afraid to go outside.
Q. Was Sitting Bull there?
A. lle was o~ftside trying to pacify the Indians, and came up right
behind me.
Q. You had a feeling at that time, and entertain it now, that the
Doctor was imprudent in undertaking to put up the flag-staff, knowing
that there was hostility to it among the Indians?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you have a feeling that lie unnecessanly imperiled you and
your command?
A. Yes, sir; I think he did.
By Mr. ATlIERTON:
Q. llave you any iiidependent means of knowing the state of feeling
among the Indians with respect to raising the flag-staff?
A. No, sir; only what I l~ve heard.
Q. llave you aiiy means of knowing what pains Dr. Saville had taken
to ascertain that feeling?
A No, sir.
Q- You spoke of the habit of keeping a picket from Camp Robinson
at the agency. Is that practice still maintained?
A. I do not know whether it is or not.
Q. Was it during your last stay there?
k Ye~, sir. 
571
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Do you know whether Dr. Saville was at all apprised of the
opposition of the Indians to raising the flag-staff before he brought the
flag-staff into the stockade I
A. Well, I cannot say, sir, about that.  I heard a couple of days before they brought that flag-staff in there that he was going to raise a
flag-staff there.  lle had sent some men out to the hills to cut it, and I
was told tben that the Indians objected to it.
Q. Did you observe anything in his conduct in tlie stockade that indicated want of presence of mind, courage, or capacity to meet an emergency of that kind?
A. Nothing more than his excitement; that was all.  I thiiik be was
very glad when he saw the troops arrive there.  lie seemed relieved
after that.  lle seemed a little easier than he did before.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Were you there at the issue of annuity-goods last November?
A. Yes, sir.  I was not present at the issue, but I was at the agency
at the time.
Q. Did you see anything of the beef-cattle that were delivered there
on the 14th of last November?
A. I think they were short of beef last November at the agency.  I
left there oji tl~e 17th, and I don't think they had any beef there.  The
beef had not been issued.  There were a great many complaints from
the Indians on account of receiving no beef.
Q. So you did not see any beef issued there in November?
A. No, sir.  I have seen their beef, though.  I have been through the
agency-herd several times.
Q. What kind of cattle did they have?
A. Well, I think the cattle were very fair; but tite cattle a-lways look
well in the summer in this country.  There was very good grazing the
summer I was there.
Q. The cattle get fat here in the summer, I believe, at~d remain in good
conditioii uiitil late in the fall?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know of any Indian supplies being bronght from Spotted
Tail or Red Cloud agelicies down to Sidney?
A. No, sir; I do not.  There was some corn shiI~ped from Sidiiey to
Red Cloud some time ago, which was not inspected that I know of.
Q. You do not kit ow of aity Indian supplies being sold there from the
agency, and taken down to Sidney or anywhere else?
A. No, sir; only what I have heard.  I have been tol(l of such thiiigs,
but I don't kiiow of my own knowledge.
Q. Do you recollect by whom you were told?
store.  I (10 not recollect who the person was.  ~ir. Walters was a
A. I was told it at Red Cloud d'gency by a ~)erson ij~ ~Ir. ~Valters'
trader there.  I don't know whetiter ite is tlteic tow or itot.
Q. What did he say on that subject?
~. lie told me that ~Ir. Randall ha~t bee~ in tlte habit of bityiitg flour
from the Indians, and then turiting it ilt to tite ~`~gei)t at J-~ed Cloii(l
and receiving pay for it.
(~.l)i(l he speak of this as a n~atter ~~-itltijt itis owit kitowledge
A. Well, I thiiik so. sir.
Q. Do you know whether To(id Randill`V-iS at that tiiite a tra&ler?
A. No, ~ir; I tl() not.  He was coI1si(lei'e4 ~l) tlteie, I l~elieve, chief
g irdeiter for tite Sionx Natioii; I l~elieve tlt-(t is`vlt;tt tltey calle~l him. 
572
I ~now of another ease up there wl~ere beef was withheld fron~ the In(lial)s for three days in or~ler ~o let a certain trader get in bis supplies,
that lie n~ight buy the hides.  I expecte~l at that ti!llC th(~t there would
be trouble there.
()~. ~~~ho did you learn that fuon~ ~
A. I learned it from one of tlie traders at the agenQv, ~Ir. Deer.  The
In~liaus were iii hisstore~very much excite~l, talking about the beef, and
I asked him what the exciten~ent meaiit, and lie told!i)C the occasioii of
it.  lie told ine that there w~s goil0g to be trouble, and I saw the In
dians were ridiiig about there, ai~d they were very active, and there
would be trouble if it was kei)t ip  aiid that was kept up for three days,
until liis goo~l S arrived.
(? ~Vere the cattle in the corral all this time?
A. I do Dot kiiow. They were near there somewhere; they were ready
to be issue~l.
Q. About what time was that?
A. I think it was last August a year ago that that b'Lpl)eued.
(~.Did you ever hear Saville say anythiiig about it?
A. No, sir.
(~.Did you hear aiiy oiie else except ~Ir. Deer?
A. I have heard quite a number of otficers speak of it. Jt was rej~orted
around there that Dr. Saville was interested with ~Ir. ~~~alters.  ile was
tlie one that received the supplies; he was the one that Saville waited
for to receive the goods.
Q. Then ~Ir. Deer told you that Dr. Saville was waiting till ~Valters
received his supplies?
A. lie said they would not issue any beef until ~Yalters's supplies were
received.  They were ex~)ecting them every day.  An issue was made
tlie third day after N\~alters receive~[ the supplies.
Q. ~1r. Deer was a trader there himself?
A. Yes. sir.
Q. And had his sui~plies there?
A. His supplies were all there, I suppose.  I can tell you something
~uore about the ludians last wijiter, Governor.  Last November, when I
left tlie agency, I was ordered down to Sidney.  The i~~ed Cloud Indians
startel about the same tine to the South Platte oil their aiinual buffalohunt.  They reniained dowii in that iieigliborhood until about ~Iarch of
this year.  I do iiot believe that these Indians were issued any beef
whatever last winten
(~.Do you know what su~~plies they (li(1 hav~?
A. I tliiiik there were about three car-loads that I klI()w of W(~Dt (~OWD
to Julesburg.
Q. ~~~ho was with theiii as sub-ageiit, who was in charge of then~ ~
A. ~1r. L~ro'vii.  lIe told i~'.e th(~it there were about 5 ()()O I~~ed (?loud
Indians under his charge.
(~.~Iight they iiot have`Ot l~cef aii~l you iiot h;ive kiiown it?
A. No, sir.  I tliiiik I`voul~l have heard of it  aii~l I Ii ave very ~~ood
reasons for kiiowing that they (li(i iiot get ally, l~ecause they were killing
beef belongin~ to the settlers aloiig tlie South Platte River.
C~. Did you have aiiy iiif~ru~ati~~ii to tlie eftect that there were three
hundred beeves issue~l to theiii out of ~ir. I~osler~s herd as they went
along?
A. No, sir; I have iiever hear~1 of aily l~eiiig issue~l.
(~.~Iight it ilot have been done and you ilot know it?
A. Yes, sir; it might have been ~loiie.
(~.Do you kiiow ~Ir. flrowii 
573
A. Yes, sir; I know hiin very well.  Be was along with the Indians
at the time.  Be came down by the way of Cheyenne to Sidney by rail.
Q. Is Mn Brown a reliable mali in his statements, as far as you
know?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. N\~hat is his general rel)utatiol0 in the community where lie lives,
as far as you have heard with refeience to it; is he regarded as a reliable man
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The fact of those Indians killiiig beeves down there, would that
be conclusive to your mind that there had been nothiiig issued to thcii~?
A. Yes, sir.  Buffalo were scarce, and these Indians camped oii the
South Platte suffered for something to eat.
Q. Have you some knowledge of Indians arid experience alnong the ~~
A. Yes, sir.
(~.How much beef do you suppose it would be necessary to issue to
a baud of Iiidiaiis like that, to I)revent them irom killing beeves along
the way? That is, I mean, do you think that if there had been ever so
much beef is~ued to theill they woul~i iiot have killed other beeves along
tlie way?
A. No, sir.  1(10 not believe they would.  They do iiot kill any 110W.
They get their beef at the agency. They come down here rai~ling occa~ioiially, but they never kill aiiy beeves.  Last winter they did it continually, an~l gave receipts to one or two parties that I know of for beef,
and they told these parties to take those receipts to their ageiit, arid he
would give beeves for them.
Q. Do you know whether ~Ir. Brown was with them then?
A. I do not know, sir. Be would go down there and stay a while and
then come home.  Be kept goilig backward and forward quite frequeii tly.
By Mr. BA~RiS:
Q. Did Mr. Brown have some warehouses?
A. No, sir.
Q. Be distributed supplies that were received among the Indians?
A. Yes, sir; they were brought down to Julesburgli and there distributed to the Indians.
Q. Bow flir is Julesburgh fr()li) Sidney?
A. Thirty-five miles east of Sidiiey.
Q. Did all these Iiidians coiiie dowi with you?
A. They were traveling oil the road.  They were in my camp every
evening.
Q. You have never learned that some two or three hundred head of
cattle were ~listributed to them after they arrived at tlie Platte, or on
their way (lowii?
A. No, sir.  1 cannot say where they were distributed.  I never saw
aiiything that iu~lic~te~I that aiiy cattle liad beeii killed on the road.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q.`Vere all of tiie Iiidiaiis iii advaiice of you?
A. There wee quite a number iri front,`ind some in the rear, and
sonic with riie.
By ~[r. B~~RRIS:
Q. If ~Ir. Bro~n should say that lie did make requisition for cattle
and cut them oul as lie wtnt dowii, do you have confidence enough in 
574
him to believe hi statemeiit, in spite of your own want of knowledge on
the subject?
A. I do not kuo~ what to say about th~t.  I have a very high opin
ion of ~Ir. Brown.  I think iii~se1f that those 1m~iaus were liun~ry last
wiiiter, and I thini:, coming down from the agelicy, they told me that
they liad iiothing. They came into camp every evening begging for
something to eat. The buffiloes were very scarce down there.
By ~fr. ATllLRT()N:
Q. I call your attention to the statement iii Dr. Savill&s report to the
Coin missioner of Iiidiaii Affairs with respect to tlie matter of the flag.
staff.  After some preliminaries, he says: " I still did not think there
was any great opposition on the part of the Indians, for it had been
frequently spoken of in my office, and some of the Iiidians had been
urging me to put up a council-house, and requested that I put a pole on
it and get a flag for them." Have you any knowledge that will enable
you to say whether or not that is a correct representation of Dr. Saville's
action in tlie matter I)revious to the day on which the affair occurred?
A. No, sir.  I have 110 knowledge.
Q. flave you any reasoii, from your own knowledge, to doubt that
that is a correct report of it ~
A. No, sir.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. The attempt to put up a flag there has been spoken of as a foolish
act. Do you so regar dit?
A. ~~ell, I think the reasons the Doctor gave very good.
Q. Now, I ask you whether or not, in your judgment, the foolishness
was iii not ascertaining his position before he attempted to raise it?
A. I think if he knew they objected to it, he should not have attempted
it; but having attempted it, he ought to have carried it out.
TESTIMONY OF CAPTAIN D. MONA flAX.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. ~~hat is your rank and position?
Answer. I am captain in the Third Cavalry, Uiiited States Army,
stationed at Sidney Barracks, Nebraska.
Q. Were you stationed at the Red Cloud agency last fail?
A. Yes, sir; I was there from April till the latter part of October,
1574.
Q. During the time that you were stationed there, had you any op.
portunity of observing the general conduct and management of affairs
at Red Cloud agency by Agent Saville?
A. ~~eIl, I was present at a few issues of rations to the Indians when
I was there; not a great many.
Q. NVill you ple:ise state to the commission anything that you observed there that seemed to you to be irreguler or improper?
A. Not as to the quality of the issues, but as to the regularity iii issuing them.
Q. That is, the mode of issuing them?
A. I sometimes contrasted their manner of doing business there with
our Subsistence department in the Army, and I certainly did think that
they were very loose in making issues.  I think the system rather loose 
575
when coin pared with our Army system.  I have seen persons, who
handled the stores in issuing to India'~s, take a sack of flour and just
turn out one-half or a portion of it, and give it to the Indians without
weighing it; the same with sugar. I do not know that 1 have seen theni
do that with coffee, but I have with sugar and flour.
Q.You did not observe whether in doing that they were attempting
to rely upon their own judgnieiit as to the portion of tlie sack they were
emptying out?
A.I suppose that was their ilitention. They tried, I suppose, to gi~e
to the Indians as near as they could what they snl)posed to be right.  I
merely noticed it as a loose Way of doiiig business.
A.And you are not aware whether, when they were scoopilig out the
sugar with the scoop, they knew the quantity?
A.I have seen them doing it with a scoop and without a scoop, and
without weighing it.  I have seen them do that with flour and sugar.
Q.~Vell, as to the quality of the supplies you have seen there; what
was the general appearance and character of the supplies?
A.I think during the latter part of my service at Red Cloud that the
flour I have seen there was much better than they had been issuing when
I first went there. The first two or three mon~hs the flour was very
dark, a poor article. The sugar was very common brow ii sugar, rather
dark; but it appeared to be dry; I thougtit a very fair quality of darkbrown sugar.  It was quite dry and iii good condition.  The coffee I
did not examine closely.  I just saw it standing off a short distance; I
(lid not handle it.
Q.Did you ever see any pork issued there during last fall?
A.Yes, sir; I have seen pork.  That which I saw I thought to be a
very fair article. I did not see anything wrong with it.  I did not Cxamine it closely.  It looked to me about the same quality of pork that is
issued to the troops, as far as I could judge without examining it
closely.
Q.Did you ever notice the tobacco?
A.Yes, sir; I have seen tobacco issued to the Indiatis.  I supposed
it to be a very inferior article.  I do not use tobacco ill that shape.  I
smoke cigars, but do not use it in any other way; but I supposed that
to be a bad article of tobacco; it was dark and wet. I did not handle
it, but I have seen the Indians bend it over and straighten it out again
and it would not break.
Q.Did you ever see any beef-cattle that were issued there last
fall?
A.I never witnessed a beef-issue to the Indians.  I only saw the
Indians hunting the cattle over the prairie after the issue, and then
they w~re some distance from me.  I have never been close to the cattle
that were there for issue. I once or twice passed through the agent's
berd in coming from Red Cloud agency into Fort Laramie, but they
were then probably some three or four hundred yards from the road, J
and I did not examine them closely.
Q.Could you say, from what you saw of them, what the general
character of the cattle. was?
A.The cattle that I remember seeing there on that occasion, I think,
were very fair catUe-Texas cattle. I do not know whether they were
all steers or steers and cows.  They appeared to be a very good class of
Texas cattle.
Q.Captain, do you know anything of the taking of some Indian suprlies down to Sidney, and the sale of them there to some trader or by
some trader? 
576
k I have oi~ly beard of that, sir, siii~e  our commission has been
iilvesti~atilig.  I never heard of it befoi'~.
Q. T)id yoii hear it spoken of by aiiy OI)C ~~ lio professed to have any
knowletige of tlie facts?
A. I never did, sir.
Q. NN~as what you heard spoken of, sini~~ly 1 11 (`it there was some flour
taken to Sidnev?
A. I remember readii~g tlie testimony of ~Ir. ~Ioore, a former storekeeper of the Indian department here, (L think he was the person, if I
remember right, that iuentio'~ed this circumstance; I read his state`nent made to ~`ou, at all events;) and that was the first I ever heard of
suj~plies beii~g sent to Sidney.
Q. Have you ever heard since fr~rn ai~y person wlio spoke of their
own knowledge ~
A. No, sir.  I have discussed tlie subject with oft~cers, but I have
iiever heird any i~erson state wlio liad aliy kitowledge of it.
Q. (?al)tain. have you ever rea~l Profi~ssor ~Iarsli~s statement of charges
`igainst tlie agency at I~LCd Cloud?
A. I have read tlien~ as published in the New York Tribui~e.
(~.Is there a'iy information or tlie iiames of aiiy persoiis that you can
give us wlio caii give the itiformation iii reference to aiiy matters coiitained in liis stateineiits other than you have given now ~
A. I caii state nothing of my own knowledge, sir.
~t~- Cnii you give us tlie names of aiiy i~ersoiis wboiii you suppose can
give ns any in~orination upon these subjects?
A. The i~crson who I suppose would be tlie most likely to give information on theSe subjects is a inaii nanied Roberts, who was Dr. Saville's
chief clerk at the agelicy.  I do not know whether he would state what
}~e knows or iiot.
Q. Is thei'e any other that you know of?
A. I could only name those persons about the agency whom 1 suH)ose
you have probably already seen.  I know a freat many from there wlio
could state, if they were disi)osed to state, what they know in reference
to these niatters.
Q. So there are no names of persons that you could give us who could
give us informatioii in re!ereiicc to any specific matter contaiue~in these
charges?
A. I do not know of ai)y person who could give ~ on any parficular
iii formation.
Q. Are you aware, Captain, of any iraud on the part of tlie Indiaii
agent, any of his employe's, or ai~y contntctor, or any other persoii iii
connection with the Indian department here?
A. Excei~t by rumor, I aiii not.  I have no personal  liowleilge, and
do not kiiow of ai~y persoii who has.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. ~Yere you present when Professor ~Iarsh was here?
A. No, sir. I met Professor Marsh going to the ageiicy a I was comilig
into Laramie.  I thiiik I i)asse(l hiiu at I?awhide Creek.
Q. Then you are not personally acquainted with aiiy of t~e facts which
he states ~
A. No, sir; not any more thaii I h-tve stited in my testimony as to
the quality of the goods aiid the niaiiiier of issuing them.
(?- \Vhat iii formation do you sul)pose;\Ir. Roberts could commuiiicate
to the coin mission if he were disl~~ise(! to tell?  ~Vhat is your nuderstaiidiiig of what inforiiiatioii he lias? 
577
A.I think be wonid be very likely to give the very fullest information
on all those. subjects mentioned by Professor Marsh. as he was not only
chief clerk, but sometimes acting agent in the abscnce of Dr. Savilie.
Q.Do you know bim well?
A.No, sir; not very well.  I have seen him there occasionally.
Q.Do you know what the reputation of Roberts is among white people
about the agency for integrity, honesty, and veracity?
A.From my knowledge of the man, and from what I have heard expressed of him by Army officers, he is a very unreliable person.
Q.Is Roberts a man having an Indian family?
A.I think not, sir.  I have never heard that he had.
CHEYENNE, N\~. T., Th~~rs~~ay, August 26, 1875.
Present: llon. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman; llon. CHARLES J.
FAULKNER, llon. B. W. llARRIS, Prof. GEORGE W. ATHERTON, and
llon. TIMOTHY 0. llOwE.
TESTIMONY OF D. II. SNYDEl~.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. ~Ir. Snyder, please state your residence and place of busi.
ness.
Answer. I reside in N\~illiamson County, Texas; Round Rock is my
post-office.  I have been engage~d in the cattle business for some time,
since 1868, and have been driving cattle here since that time.  I have
a ranch eighty miles north of here on the Sabille, thirty miles west of
Fort Laramie.  I have wintered cattle here.  The first time was in
1872.
Q.About what is the general increase in the size, or weight rather,
of cattle, say three or four year old steers, in keeping them over one
season here?
A.The increase would be more on three-year olds tha~rI on four-year
olds. Three-year olds that will weigh 850 pounds when they first come
here, and will weigh 1,100 pounds the next year.  That would be after
they were four years old.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.~Vhat would be the difference of the four-year olds?
A.In the four-year olds the increase would not be so heavy.  They
would increase 10 or 15 per cent. or more if they were in thin condition.
A four-year old that will weigh 1,000 pounds when he Co tiles here will
weigh 1,200 the next year.  That is, I am tounting ratige- weight and
not shipping-weight; that is, to weigh them withoutlot~ing them.  The
difference between range-weight and shipping-weight is 75 to 100
pounds, or more than that, taking them right up off the range.  A
twelve-hours' drive will make it about that.  I think to take a steer
right up off from grass and water and weigh him and then ship him to
Chicago he would weigh 125 pounds less, but if taken off the ratige
and lotted, the difference would be forty or fifty pounds.  In runniiig to
Chicago they get very gaunt, more so than they would on twelve hours'
lotting.
Q.Did you ever sell Mr. Bosler any cattle?
A. I never sold him many.  I sold him abou~ 1,500 in the spring of
37 1 F 
578
18.3, an 1 1 sold biin 750 calves last year. ~Iost of the stock whi~li I
have dri' ~en here has been the class of stock wl~i'cli was butter for graz          ing tl)~j11 tl~t which he could pay for, and was youiiger stock than be
wilited. The class of cattle I sold him in 1873 were be~ves ai~d cows,
tlirue ~~~i~5 old, aiid in 1874 they were all cows.
Q. \Vere there ainoi'g those cattle any yearlings or two-year olds?
A. No, sir. Iii the fall of 1873 1 drove the cattle 011 the raiige and
wiiitered them; they were beeves, cows, and two.year olds, and held
them until the next season. He refused to take the two-year olds. ~Ve
had at that time 4,000 cattle in Idaho, and I was trying to close them
out to go out there.
Q. Could you form an estimate of the weight of the cattle you sold
him in 1873, and of the cows in 1874?
A. I could not form an estimate, because I (lid not see the cattle at
all. I got here about the mi~Idle of January, and George Bosler came on
after that-but I was take~~ sick; after I began to get well George Bos          1cr came in, and I sold l~im the cattle while sick in bed; tl'e cattle were
in goo~l coiiditioii, but I could form no estimate of their weight; I saw
some of the cattle which were left, and they were in good condi          tion; the cattle which were left were young cattle; my men told me
that the cattle which George Bosler got would make good beef; it was
tlie first year which we had wijitered cattle here, and we were struck
with the!act that the cattle had done so well here in the winter-bet          ter than we liad anticipated. The cows I sold l~im in 1874 were a
good square lot of cows. I had bought a lot of cattle and sold the
cows an~l kept the younger cattle- I 51 ippose the cows would weigh
about 850 pounds; when I sold them thQ~ were just off the trail; they
were a superior lot of cows,  because they were old cows- I sold them iii
August or September.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Did they increase iii weight?
A. Yes, sir; they increased in weight until winter.  Cattle will in          crease on this range until December.  Last year they did not stop ini          proving until about January. The severity of the winter did not corn          -men cc until about the middle of January.
By the CHAiRMA~:
Q. Is it regarded by cattle-men in this part of the country that there
is any more danger in hertling cattle on the north side of the Platte
than on the south side?
A. Yes, sir; we have not considered it safe on account of the Indians
north of the Platte.  ~~hen we went out on the Sabille we were outside
the settlements and cattle-rai~ches, and considered in ore exposed than
any other rand~ that was two years ago.  N\% had not been there but
~         a niouth when the Indians got our horses; but we got them back again
~         yet it was considered a mere chance that we did so.
Q. You are pretty well acquainted, I presume, with the men who drive
cattle up here from Texas, and their mode of carrying on that trade;
and I would like to inquire if it is usual for the men who drive cattle
here to pay for their cattle down there, in part or in whole, before they
~         start with them?
A. ~Vhen we first co'.iiinenced driving cattle there was hardly any
cattle paid for in whole or in part, but for the last two years there ha          been more cattle paid for when bought than formerly.  There was
custom of gathering there when we first commenced driving, but it i.' 
579
flow pretty well closed out. For instance, I am selling you cattle; I am
known as a cattle-man there, and I put in all my own cattle and my
neighbors', and the brands are taken (town and recorded in the de~k's
office; then in the fall or winter the stock-men will meet from county
to county, and each exan0ine the records, and a settlement is made according to the records.
By Mr. FAuLKNER:
Q. Are the cattle weighed before leaving Texas?
A. No, sir; they are all sold by the head.  The system of handling
cattle there is changing.  Now very fi~w men caii handle any cattle but
their own cattle are becoming scarce and the people are~more particular.
The catfle' are getting scarce there ~~ery fast.
By the CiiAi~MAN:
Q. llave you bad in your experience in cattle-dealing some of your
herds stampeded?
A. Yes, sir; on the roads we have had.  I have never heard of anything of that kind occurring on the range, because there is no danger of
cattle stampeding unless they are closely herded; the closer they are
herded together the more easily they are stampeded.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. What are the usual causes of those stampedes?
A. Well, sir, it is from various causes.  A steer will stampede very
easily, just like a man getting scared.  I have known cattle being stampeded by a rider gettin~ down off his horse and shaking his saddle. We
are very careful in driving not to have any unaccustomed noise around
them. There are more stampedes from driving in thunder~storms and bad
rainy nights than from anything else.
Q. I should like tor you, Mr. Snyder, to furn~sh us now the prices that
are paid in Texas for cattle one, two, three, and four years old.
A. We have usually paid there for the last three years, up to last
year, $3 for yearlings. Last year they were $3.50 and $4. For two-year
olds we pay $5 and $5.50; cows, $7 and $8; three-year olds, $9 and $10;
and for some of the classes of cattle, for beef, $12 and $14.  By beeves
I mean four-year-old steers, and over. I live sixteen miles from Austin.
When I first commenced this cattle business my county was the foremost county in the State. The cattle north and west of Austin are better than the cattle south and southwest, and generally have been a
little higher.  I have been accustomed to driving beeves and stock
cattle. I never drive beeves alone.  I did so in 1869.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. What would be your estimate of the average weight of beeves
four years 01(1 and upward, driven from Texas here, and delivered on
the Platte, and weighed from the range?
A. That would vary in the way the cattle were delivered.  In other
words, you take a lot of cattle, handled well, and they would average
better thaii others. An average drove would average from 1,000 to 1,050,
and that depends, too, somewhat u~~on the part of the country they come
from.  If they came from Western Texas, they would run ftom 1,000 to
1, 05(). Get them from the extreme eastern part of Texis, they would not
weigh more than 900 pounds; but there are no cattle driveii from there
now.  I bave seen Mr. Bosler's herd this year.  I saw them passing up
the Platte, near Ogallalla, about twenty miles bdow Sidiiey. I never went
through one herd. I saw~three or four.  I rode through one herd while 
580
I was coming down with a lot of beeves for shipment, and I suppose there
wei~e 2,500 in the herd. They were steers and cows, and they were tolerably fair cattle. I would call them average cattle; not fat, but an average lot of cattle, in a fair condition. T~e average weight of the herd
WOL id be 900 pounds.  I think the same cattle would weigh much more
on  good range. I saw three thousand, I think; they had just arrived,
as I understood, and the average of them would increase 100 pounds in
ninety days on the herd if they were turned loose. They would increase
more in ninety days from the 1st of August than in the ninety days previous. They would increase more than cattle in better flesh. Augrist, September, and October are the best months.  I saw seven thousand head
altogether. I was attending to my own cattle, and did not examine them.
I do not remember being in their herd.  I was on one side arid they
were on the other side of the river.
By ~Ir.FAULKNER:
Q.Could you give us the cost and expense of driving cattle from
Texas here?
A.That has va~~ed very much duritig the last three years.  We used
to drive froni ten to fift~en hundred iii a herd, and thought we had a
very big herd, and when we commenced we used to put one man to one
hundred cattle, and have to pay him a big price. That was in 1868 to
1871, and they would cost fully $3 per head.  Now we bring them up ill
herds of two thousand.  We doii't hire men as we used to; we furnish
Ithem horses, and pay them less wages.  N\'~e used to pay from $60 to
$75 per month, and they ft~rnished their own horses; now we furnish
them horses, and give them from $25 to $30 per month. The first year
we drove beeves alone.  There is more risk in driving small herds, of
Icattle from Texas than large herds, and it is also l~etter to have part
cows, as they are more peaceful.
By Mr. llA~RiS:
Q.N\~hat is the difference between net and gross weight, say of a steer
weighing one thousand pounds, at Chicago?
A.A steer in good condition would net 60 i>er cent. beef.
Q.What do you suppose would be the weight of the same steer taken
right off the grass here and killed?
A.It would net about 50 per cent.
By the CiiAi~MAN:
Q.`Can you tell us why the cattle-dealers here do iiot take the contract here for snpplying Indian agencies?
A.~Ve would prefer to sell our herds here at a profit, so that we can
go back and iiivest our moiiey in Texas for more cattle.  Another reason in my own case is, that I furnished soiiie cattle for the Fort liall Indian agency in March, ~874, and have never got my pay for them.  I
still hold the voucher for them; and in June, 1874, t furnished 83,326
pounds of beef for the Fort Hall Indian agency iii Idaho, and have never
got the j)~y for them, either.  The beef was killed and issued to the
Indians off the block.  The reason I did not get paid for this was owiiig
to a deficiency in the apl)ropii;ition. 
- - -          ~cTh           -        -
581
DENVER, C. T., Saturday, August 28,1875.
Present: Hon. THoMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman; Prof. GEORGE ~.
ATHERTON, Hon. TIMOTHY 0. HOWE, Hon. B. W. HARRIS, and Hon
CHARLES J. FAULKNER.
TESTL~ONY OF JOHN W. ILIFF.
By the CHAiRMAN:
Question. Mr. Iliff, please state your business and place of resilence.
Answer. My residence is Denver; my business is that of stock-raising
and that of buying and selling cattle.  1 have been engaged in that
business since 1862.
Q. To what extent are you a dealer in cattle`r
A. 1 buy and sell from three to eight thousand cattle a year, and have
beeu doing so for the last ten years; and for the last ten years it would
average over five thousand a year. I buy Texas cattle principally, but some
mixed. 1 buy the herds as they are driven here; young cattle, generally
from one to three years old. Sometimes I buy older cattle.  I usedtodeal
in older cattle, but for the last three years t have dealt in younger cattle.
I buy them1 and turn them on my range until they are matured for beef.
I allow them to reach the age of four years old before I sell them.  I
sometimes sell them at three years old. I send my beef to Chicago.  I
deal in steers altogether now; I used to deal in mixed cattle and cows
to some extent, but for the last four years bought exclusively steers.  I
herd my cattle on the South Platte and Crow Creek.
Q. At four years old a steer that has been here 9ne year will average
how much~
A. On the range they will average 1,200 pounds. The way they weigh
them here is twelve hours off water and grass.  If they are driven off
the range on to the scales, they will weigh 1,100 pounds.  A four-yearold Texas steer, fat enough for shipping, will weigh that much.  We
usually take them off the range, put them in the corral for twelve hours,
without water or feed, and weigh them, and then we calculate they will
weigh from 20 to 30 pounds le~s.  I have weighed cattle off from grass
and water, and deducted 30 pounds from their proper weight.  A fat
steer, taken right off of grass and water, would weigh 1,100 pounds if shipped to Chicago~, but weigh him off the cars, and there would be nearly 10
per cent. shrinkage for the gross weight.  If we were to feed them after
they arrive at Chicago, it would not be quite so much.  We calculate 10
per cent. shrinkage on cattle taken off grass and then shipped to Chicago, and weigh them right off the car; but to feed and water them there,
would be 20 pounds difference between the car-weight and after they
are fed. I have tried that several times; I waiited to ki~ow for my own
benefit. We have occasion often to sell cattle right off the range, and it
is not convenient to weigh them, and we want to make an estimate of
what we are getting in Chicago.
Q. We have been talking about cattle which you have takeii on your
range and fatted.  Now, are you acquaiiited with the general character
of four-year-old steers, which are called the average cattle from Texas?
A. Well, I am not as welt acquainted with them as with cattle which
have been ranged here.  I have seen herds of beef-cattle as they have
come from Texas.
Q. What is their comparative size with those you have fed ~
A. Well, there is a great C ifference between the herds that come up
from Texas.  I would not lile to give an opinioii without seeing them. }
A herd of Texas c~ttle, or what is called aii average herd of cattle which 
582
bad not be~u topped and picked out of, and seven years old, would be
]arger than four-year olds and would weigh more. I never consider it as
profitable t~) handle seven-year olds as four-year olds.  I prefer young
cattle.  Tht whole herd would be larger in size perhaps, but not so heavy
in weight.  They would not be fat; what they would weigh would be a
matter of guess-work. Take an average herd as they are driven up here
and they would go about 900 pounds; they might go a little less or they
might go more.  It would depend upon their age and the manner in
which they are driven and the number of older cattle.
Q.What is the effect of a herd driven through and put on this range;
would they be likely to change in weight ~
A.Well, our calculation is in a three-year old steer, we can put oli by
keeping him a year 200 pounds, by allowing him to run on the range.
011 a four-year old steer we can get a little more.  We pretend to do
nothing with cattle until they have been held on the range one year. We
receive them about the 1st of July, and hold all three-year old steers
over until August or September of the next year when we ship them,
but our two-year olds we keep until they are four years old. Sometimes
we ship a few three-year olds late.
Q.~~hat would be the effect upon a herd of Texas cattle which arrived
here in June or July of keeping them until the middle of December~
A.Those cattle turned out on the range would increase in size, but
not in fat.  An animal will fill up in all appearances, but will not weigh
heavy.  I think fifty pounds would be a fair average to put on a steer
driven up in July or August and kept until the following September or
October.
Q.Have you ever seen any cattle sold to Mr. Bosler for the Indian
agencies I
A.None at all this year.  I saw some this year which had iiot been
turne~l over yet, but they were intended for him. They were Mabry's
and Littlefield's; I saW them at Ogalalla on the South Platte. I saw Mr.
Littlefield as they were said to be turned over; they were coj~~ing on the
road to be turned over to Bosler's herd on the way to the agency.  I
should judge there were in that herd from fi(teen hundred to two
thousand; they were all steers I think; I don't remember seeing any
cows.  I thought the geiieral appearance of that herd was very good
They were in a good condition to have come through from Texas.  I remarked at the time that those cattle were in a better condition than
cattle are generally coming through from Texas. From what I saw of that
herd, I would put them above the average, and think they would go
from 950 to 1,000 pounds.  I give this as my general opinion without
having ex~mined them so carefully as if I was going to purchase, and
therefore hesitate somewhat in giving this opii)ioii.  I bought of Mabry and Millett six thousand young cattle out of their herds, one, two,
and three years old steers.  The larger cattle or steers I understood
would go to Bosler.  That is what Mr. Mabry told me himself.  I did
not observe closely the character of the four-year olds, because they were
mixed ul), and I hardly look at cattle when they are iiiixed up so closely;
it is hard to make an estimate of them.  ~ry owli ideas were that those
cattle were a fair lot of Texas cattle, but I did iiot observe them closely.
They might have been as good as Mr. Littlefield~s if they had been
cut out by themselves.  Mr. Littlefiled's had been all cut out an hour
previous.  Their health and their general appearance seemed to be good.
They looked ill ~LS good condition as cattle are generally, driven from
Texas. 
583
Q. ~~ould you describe such cattle in either of those herds ~ou saw,
of Mabry's or Littlefield's, as beef ~
A. No, we do not.  I should not consider them in a condition for
beef. But the Texas people and drivers call everything beef that is four
years old and upward.  Our market is Chicago, and we have to furnish
a better class than that.
Q. ~Vhat would you understand if a contract said you were to deliver
5,4(JO,0OO pounds of beef averagii)g 011 the hoof 850 pounds and upward;
what would you say would fill that contract?
A. N\~ell, I would have to be governed somewhat on the class of cat.
tie which they have been accustomed to put in those contracts.  But
we should not call them beef at all for the Chicago market.  A great
many are sold, but not sold for beef; but to be fed and fattened, not to be
killed as beef.  They are disposed of in this way: A fattener will come iii
and buy a large number of these cattle to feed for the butchers to buy,
and dispose of tlie remainder the best be can.  They tank some and dispose of what portion they can.  No cattle are tanked except the
very lowest grades ai~d scalawags-those which can be bought for the
very lowest price.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Suppose you were to enter into a contract to furnish a certain
quantity of marketable beef or of merchantable beef, what would you
understand by that term?
A. ~Vell, if I was furnishing it to the Government for the military
posts, I would expect to put in a good class of beef, as good as they
buy in this market, but if I was going to put them in on an Indian contract, I would expect to put in some pretty hard cattle.
Q. ~~hat would you understand by the term "merchantable beef?"
A. ~~ell, beef that will give satisfaction to any one that will eat beef;
that which will sell in an ordinary market.
Q. ~~hy would you furnish better beef to tlie Army thaii to the Indians?
A. The reason is this: Iii f)utting in beef to the military we have to        -
slaughter all the beef, and it is issued from the block, cut up from 1, 2,
3, to 10 pounds, whatever they require, and for that reason we would
ha~-e to sell a good quality of beef, because they would not accept it if
we did not, biit if we were putting it in on the hoof we would put in
whatever they would take, and it requires a good judge of cattle on the
hoof to distinguish a fat animal from a fleshy oiie.
Q. Is it possible to tell the quality of tlie beef from the appearai~ce of
the cattle?
tomed to handling beef can do so.  It would avoid all this difliculty if
A. ~Vell, it is iiot possible for every oiie to tell.  ~Ien who are accusthe (~`overnment would kill the beef and issue it to the Iudiaiis from the
block. They would then get a good quality of beef; for after i~ is cut
up it is very easy to tell it it is a good ~~uality of beef.
By Mr. llARRtS:
Q. You made this distinction: that in supplying a military post, in
ci0tting it up, you would have to give good beef.  Could you su~~ply to
a military post a poorer cliSs of cattle on the hoof thaii wonl~l bc acc~i~ted oil the block?
A.Yes, sir; unless they would have an offi~er to insi)t(~t this beef
who was accustomed to make a distiiictioii  but there is ilOt oiie in ten
who could make the distinction.  I kiiow this fion~ cxpcri~iice; b~cause
 
584
I have furnished cattle on the block lo military posts, and on the hoof,
too.
Q.I intended to ask you if you kne'v anything about the cattle which
were turn~1 over to the Bosiers last y~~ar?
A.I know nothing except the repor~s which I heard, but paid little
attentioi~ to them. I know the Boslers personally; but know nothing about their business matters, as I have never had any dealings with
them.
Q.What is their reputation in the business community as men of
fair dealing and integrity?
A.I think it is generally understood among business men engaged in
dealing in cattle, that they put in a class of cattle for the Iiidian contracts that would not be salable in any other market. I don't pretend
to say that they do this; but they have the reputation of buying that
class of cattle.
Q.If there is anything else you know about thislndian business, either
of cattle or anything else, which goes to establish the proposition that
there have been frauds committed, I wish you would inform us.
A.I never was at one of those agencies, and never saw the cattle
which were issued, and know n~othing about it. But if there is one
thing which ought to be impressed upon the Government it is that the
beef which is issued to these Indians ought to be slaughtered and issued
to them from the block, as it is to the soldier~  There is no waste then,
and if the beef was not good it could be rejected; but it is not possible
to do it when the beef is issued on the hoof.  I have no interest in any
contracts, or with any of those parties, whatever.  I am interested only
as any other citizen of the Union.  I dislike to see things wasted; and
while I do not see any of it, I am fully satisfied that there are a great
many wastes in these issues to the Indians, and the principal cause is in
the way the issues are made.
KANSAS CITY, Mo., Monday, A~ust 30, 1875.
Present: lion. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman; lion. CHARLES J.
FAULKNER, lion. B. W. flARRIS, and Prof. GEORGE W. ATHERToN.
TESTIMONY OF E. R. TllRELKELD.
By the CiiMRMAN:
Question. lIow long have you lived in Kinsas City?
Answer. About twenty-seven years-a little more than twenty-seven
years.
Q.What has been your business (luring that time?
A.Well, sir, the principal part of the time I have been in the mercantile business. I was for a number of years in the Indian supplying business, supplying India'~ traders and Indian posts under our control; that is, such as were conducted by agents of ours.  I was in that
business previous to the war, but since that time I have been in the
grocery and provision business in this city.
Q.I want to iuquire of you if the pork which you mention in your
communications to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs of November 25
and 27, 1874, as having been inspected by you, was of the kind and quality mentioned in those communications, and what your mode of inspection was? 
585
A. The pork was of the kind named there.  Ul~n examining the
packages, I discovered that they did not comply with the requirements
of the contract, from the fact that they did not have the iron hoops at
the end of each barrel, as required by the contract.  I required Slavens
to put the hoops on, and while that was being done I examined the pork
by removing it from the barrel and weighing it and inspecting it.  I
made the men carry it in the house, and I weighed it myself.  Of course,
I did not remo~e the pork from every barrel, but from quite a number
of barrels of each lot-of each car-load.
Q. Of what is this prime mess-p~~rk composed-what portions?
Q. It is composed of middling and the shoulder-not all shoulder-pork
and not all middling; it is mixed.
Q. You said in your communication that it was all sweet, gooff1 sound
pork of the quality ~
A. Yes, sir; it was in good condition.
Q. Then this prime mess-pork was a good article of prime mess-pork'?
A. Yes, sir; it was better-looking pork than the first 200 barrels; it
was not quite so old, and it was ve~ large, and in good condition.
Q. With your experience in the matter of handling that kind of pork,
what is the effect of the leaking of the brine out of a barrel of pork?
A. It is very bad; it produces rust and spoils the pork.
Q. Had you ever inspected pork before that time for Mr. Slavens-before that contract?
A. No, sir; I never had.  I did not even know I was appointed to inspect it until he called upon me to inspect it.  The year previous I inspected supplies for the Indian Department; that is, bacon and flour; but
I did not know I would be called upon to inspect this pork.
Q. Had you ever inspected any Iiidiau supplies of any kind befjore that
for Mr. Slavens?
A. Not unless I inspected flour.  I may have inspected some flour
before that; I don't recollect; I could tell by reference to my book;
but I think not.  I think the pork was the first I inspected under ~Th.
Slavens' contract.
Q. Do you know of Mr. Slavens having previous contracts for the Indian Department?
A. No, sir; I never heard of his having a contract before.  I think I
probably heard of his having a contract for beef the year before, but I
am not positive of that~or was interested with other parties.
Q. N\~ell, the price at which this pork was furnished by Mr. Slavens:
how (lid that compare with the market.price of similar pork here at the
time?
A. ~Vell, the first 200 barrels were at a less price than the marketrates here for the same quality of pork; I think about y~2 a barrel less
than the market-price here.
Q. Do you recollect how it was as to the other?
A. After the first 200 barrels were delivered, and about the time he
delivered the next lot of pork, I think pork had declined in price, and
was worth less than it was when he coinmence~l filling the contract.
That is only from memory, however; that is`ny impressioii of the
market-price; I don't remember exactly the quotations.
Q. What is Mr. Slavens's business here?
A. Well, he is what we call a pork-packer here; he gets lio~s and
sells them in the market ns other packers do, sometimes in tlie shai)e
of bacon, sometimes, I believe, from the block, and soinetiiiies l)uts it
iii barrels.  Be has also packed beef. 
586
Q. Does he do a pretty large business at packing pork in the pack.
ing.season?
A. Yes, sir; he does a tolerably large business, only not the largest
in town, but a very fair business.
Q. Do you know whether there are any persons west of here v-ho do
a larger business in that way than he does?
A. No, sir; I think not. I don't know one west of Kansas City.
Q. Is he regarded in this community as a responsible man?
A. Yes, sir; be is also regarded as a reliable business-man-what we
would call reliable, an honorable business-man; perhaps he enjoys as fin~
a reputation in that way as any man in the city.
By Mr. llA~RiS:
Q. The time you inspected the pork, the first 200 barrels, it was worth
in this market $2 or $3 more than he was getting for it ~
A. Yes; it was worth at least $2, and, I think, probably $3.
Q. Hadn't you a copy of the proposals with you?
A. Yes, sir; I had; but I don't know whether I have it now or not.
It may be among those papers.
Q. Have you a copy of the advertisemeiit with you?
A. No, sir; I don't think I ever had them as published in the newspapers.  I had one in pamphlet form.
U. Now, what was prime pork bringing in tlie market at the time you
inspected it?
A. I don't recollect exactly wh~~t prime pork was worth at the time;
it was worth less than mess pork, about $1.50 less, probably $2 a barrel
less; I don't recollect the difference iti the various grades, as I was not
handling pork on my own account.
Q. When he presented you the first 200 barrels for iiispection you
passed it as good pork?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. He theii asked you to inspect 600 barrels of prime pork?
A. ~Ve call it prime mess.
Q. Wherein is the difference between mess pork and prime mess?
A. Prime mess is the shoulder and the middle, and mess is simply the
middle without the shoulder.
(Q.But both, as I understand you, cut through tlie ribs
A. A portion ~r the rib is taken out; it is not all taken out; a portion
of the short ribs are left in; but in niess pork, I don't know but in some
place~ they lake it all out, and son0e don~t take it out at all.  In the first
200 barrels there was a little rib iii it, and in the last there was all the
rib and the shoulder.
Q. What was the size of tiie pork as compared with the other?
A. There wasn't much difference in size; it was all large pork.
Q. How much would they average in wcight?
A. I think they would average probably 250 ponuds.
Q. Do you think both kinds were about the same size pork?
&`ics, sir; that is my recollection of it.
Q. Could you judge about how long it had been packed ~
A. ~~ell, the pork in the first 200 barrels had b~en packed some time,
but not so long as the other; that is my impression.
Q. Were both lots somewhat old?
A. No, sir; they were not very 01(1 lots of pork by any means.
Q. How long should you thiiik they had been packed?
A. I should think the first pork itispected had probably been packed
the spring or winter beibre. 
587
Q.Andthelast~
A.The last lot was fall packing; had just been packed; it was new
pork.
Q.And perfectly sweet, you say?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.And properly salted ~
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Can you tell, while the contract was silent as to whether it should
be mess or prime, why you should not insist upon the best when you
were acting for the Government?
A.I did; I insisted upon the best. Mr. Sla~~us called my attention
to the fact that it was.
Q.Can you tell why the Government should not demand first qu~lity
if the contract is silent 011 the subject, as well as Slavens should insist
upoli the second or third quality?
A.I have no reason.
Q.If the contract is silent on the subject, why should not the Government have the benefit of it as well as Mr. Slavens in determining the
quality of the pork by the inspection ~
A.~Vell, that is a questiou I am not able to answer.  I suppose if
I were bnyiiig of you, or Mr. Slavens, or any other person, a certain
amount of any given article, I should certainly have the grade specified in the contract, the particular kind.
Q.You were acting, not for Mr. Slavens, but for the Goveriiment.
A.Yes, sir.
Q.And you began by inspecting mess pork?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.At his request, you passed as sound pork a quality below that
grade, because it was pork?
A.Yes, sir; I had not noticed the tern's of the contract at the time I
inspected the first; I supposed, of course, it required mess pork, and
when he presented me mess pork, I found it merchantable, I passed it.
Q.Didn't he tell you he could not go on su~~plying the contract at
.~21 a barrel when he had to pay $24 for it, and that lie must change
the quality ~
A.No, sir; he said that parties who had the contract at Omaha and
above here were all furnishing that class of pork, and he did not see
why I should be so conscientious and refuse to accept the same pork
that they received; and I did not feel that I wanted to be over particular, and if they were receiving that kind of pork, of course I had ilo
nght to dispute what he said about it.
Q.You did not communicate with the Department before acceptiiig
the 600 barrels?
A.No, sir; but I did so in~mediately afterward.  I fiiid I have the
advertisemeiit here.
Q.In the letter, Commissioner Smith says. "It al)pears th~t the Dcpartment calls for mess pork, but by a clerical error tlie word mess is
omitted from the contract."  Now will you turn to the advertisement and
s~e what it says?
A.I find the adverti~ement for proposals for furnishing pork for tlie
I~ed Cloud agency reads: "240,000 pounds mess pork, ii' barrels." I
would like to say, further, that in coi~iiection wit ii that contract with
~Ir. Slaveiis I never received a copy of the advertisement, but, attached
to tlie coiitract for soap with Godwii Belir &
of the advertisemeiit.,       Co., I received a copy
Q.From wlioni did you rece~ve a copy O&~ tlie coiitract? 
588
A. From the Indian omce.
Q. Before or after Mr. Slavens called on you to inspect the first lot of
his pork?
A. That I cannot answer, whether it was before or after I inspected
the first lot; I don't recollect, but I presume it was before.
Q. Have you any recollection now whether Mr. Slavens furnished you
a copy of the contract, or whether you received it from the Department
before you inspected the pork?
A. My impression is that I received it after, because I think ill the
first certificate I gave I could not fill up the blank in the certificate
giving the date of the contract; if I did, it was from information received from Mr. Slavens as to the date of the contract; but after that I
got the contract.
Q. Did you see the advertisement before you inspected the (~OO barre's of prime mess pork ~
A. I think I did, sir.
Q. Now, having the advertisement before you which called for mess
pork, and the contract which was silent upon the subject of the quality,
how did you construe the contract as giving you authority to receive an
inferior quality of pork?
A. I did not consider the quality inferior.  The grade was different.
Q. I mean, did your own knowledge that he could not furnish that
pork at $21 a barrel control your judgment of the matter 7
A. Well, I presume, sir, in connection with the ii\formation I recefved
that they were -not required to furnish mess pork from the other localities, that had something to do with it.
Q. Will you say at the time you inspected the six hundred barrels
you had no knowledge of the terms of the advertisement as well as the
terms of the contract?
A. No, sir; I cannot say that. I have already said differently. I think
I had knowledge of the advertisement and also of the contract.
Q. And you did know, did you not, that there was a difference in the
terms of the two instruments?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did ~Ir. Slavens claim that, because the contract did iiot hold him
up to the terms of the advertisement, therefore he was at liberty to
put in a different grade?
A. lle contended that the contract was all I had to go by.
Q. Then there was some discussion as to whether you should bold him
to the terms of the advertisement or the terms of the contract?
A Yes sir; he. said if the contract was not to be my guide, then
I had nog'nide; that there would have been no occasion for sending it to
me.
Q. Did you say to him that, inasmuch as he bad made a proposal to
fill the contract which the Government had advertised for in terms, be
he was bound to fulfill it according to the proposal and not according to
the contract
A. No, sir.
Q. You did not claim that if he had made a proposal in answer to an
advertisement which calls for mess pork, and that proposal was acc~t)ted,
that therefore he was bound to furnish mess pork, no matter what the
contract stated ~
A. I think I used that argument with him, but, in reply, he called my
attention to the advertisement inviting proposals for flour, and also, in
connection therewith, to the character of flour the Government received,
a sa in pIe of which had been furnished to me by the Department, and 
589
which, be reminded me, I knew was not XX flour, arid, of course
I said I knew it. In reply, he said they bad accepted a contract with
him for a different grade of flour from what the Department called for,
the sample of which I had in my possession, and knew to be different,
and I did not know but that they`night have done the same with him
in regard to pork. I also call your attention in this connection to the
following letter, dated September 5, 1874. This letter does riot refer to
the advertisement, but simply to the contract; and taking all these
things together, I thought that he might be right about it:
DFPARTMENT OF TIlE 1NTEI~IOR. OFFICE OF INDIAN AFFA1R~,
f~'ashington, D. C., September 5, J~74.
SIR: I have this day forwarded to your address a sample of the flour under which the contract of this office with J W. L. Slavens was aw&ded, and have to call your attention to in
structions heretofore given you as to your duties regarding lie inspection of the 8ame.
Very respect fully, your obedient servant,    H. R. CLUM,
E. R. THREI.KELD, Esq.,                         Acting Commissioner
Inspector Thdian Supplies, Kansas City, Mo.
Q. In the case of flour you had a sample?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In the case of pork you had no sample?
4. No, sir; simply had a contract by which they agreed to furnish
so many barrels of pork. The instructions referred to in the above
letter are as follows:
DEPARTMENT OF THE iNTERIOR, OFFIcE OF INDIAN AFFAIRS,
Washington, D. C., August 1, 1874.
SIR: The supplies that will come under your inspection duri~g the year are to be delivered
at Kansas City and Saint Louis, and will consist principally of flour, bacon, lard, ajid soap.
Samples of flour and soap will be furnish~d.
All goods should be plainly marked "Indian Department," and each package, sack, or
barrel must bear your mark of inspection.  You will provide yourself with tbe necessary implements for such branding or stenciling.
Certificates, as per accompanying blanks, filled by the inspector, should be delivered to the
parties entitled to receive the same, and a duplicate forwarded to this Office.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
EDW. P. SMITH,
Commiss~oner.
~. It. THRELKELD, Esq.,
Kansas City, Missouri.
Q. While you may excuse yourself or be perfectly justified-and, of
course, were justifie~l-in passing flour that was up to the sample furnished, how can yoii justify yourself in passing pork which was not of
the best grade, when the description was simply pork?
A. Because I did not presume it was my prerogative to dictate what
kind of pork should be accepted, provided it was sweet and sound.
Q. llow many kinds of pork are there recognized in the market?
A. ~Vell, there are about five different grades: First, clear mess; second, mess; third, prime mess; fourth, mess ordinary; then there is
prime pork that is still lower than mess ordinary.
Q. Are the grades marked on all the pork?
A. They are usually marked by the packer.
Q. Do you recollect what this pork was marked?
A. It was marked just what it was-prime mess.
Q. it was ~ot marked prime?
A. No, sir. I think it was marked pntue mess-pork.
Q. Do yoil recollect sufficiently well to say I 
590
A. No, I could not say )ositiv~y, but that is my recollection.
Q. ~Vhat would be the ~ifference in the value of those different kinds
-what would prime be wcrth?
A. From the highest to -~he lowest, probably a difference of $10 a bar.
rel.  The difference betwetn the first three is not so very much.
Q. ~~hat would constitu~ prime pork?
A. Pork under size, I suppose, and probably lean and almost all
shoulder.
Q.. Do you remember whether you passed any of that grade called
prime
A. I don't think I did.
Q. N\~hy would not that answer tlie advertisement just as well as the
prime mess, if it was sweet and sound pork?
A. It would, sir.
Q. Are you willing to s~y you did not pass the lowest grade of pork
on that contract?
A. No, sir; I don't think it was the lowest grade of pork; but I
think I would be justified in passing the lowest grade of pork if it was
sweet and sound.
Q. In pork called prime, would there be a great deal of lean with
little fat?
~. Of course, it would contain less lard; less grease than the mess
pork.
Q. ~~hat agencies did the flour go to which you inspected under
Slavens' contract?
A. N\~ashita, Fort Sill, and Cheyenne and Arapahoe agencies.
Q. None went to Red Cloud and Spotted Tail?
A. No sir; the contract shows for itself.
Q. You speak of it as flour under the grade of XX I
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The flour was made to co in ply with the sample which was furnished
you from the Department?
k Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know anything about how that flour was made-what it was
made of?
A. Some of it was made in the city, and a large poftion of it was
made at Independence, in this county, at a mill that had the best repution of any flour that came into this market.
Q. How do they manufacture the flour; what material would they
use to manufacture a flour of less grade than XX?
A. They wo'jld use middlings of the better class of wheat, and mix
it with a poorer class of wheat and have it re-ground.
Q. N\Tas it pretty poor stuff, or pretty good quality?
A. No, sir; the flour that ~Ir. Slaveus delivered, all of it except one
car-load, was better than the sample furnished me.
Q. Is the result of such miMug of the middlings of superior wheat
and poor wheat to darken the flour-is that the ordinary result I
A. It does not bake so white; there is not so much difference in the
quality of the bread, in the whiteness of U~e flour, as in the strength of
the flour.  Bakers cannot make as large a loaf of it; it does not rise as
well; it will make good bread, but they cannot sponge it up as they can
the stronger grades of flour.
Q. I suppose the finer flour is made of winter-wheat?
A. ~7e raise nothing but winter-wheat here.  The mixing of these
makes the grade of flour known as superfine, and that is like the sample
furnished by the Department. 
591
Q. How many grad~s of flour are there?
A. There are what are termed XX, X, superfine, and fine.  I believe in Saint Louis they have five grades.  I believe they have XX,
X, fancy superfine, superfine, and fine.  In the inspection of flour the
year before in Saint Louis, I called to my aid Mn Benson.
Q. You would say of all that flour it was sweet, sound flour?
A. It is the best lot of flour, taking it as a whole, that I ever saw
made to the Indian country.  It was, I should say from an experience
of twenty-seven years of handling Indian supplies, better thaii the contract called for.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Have you stated at any time during the course of conversation
when this inspection of pork took place?
A. My impression is that it was about the latter part of September,
1874.
Q. Do you know whether the l)ork inspected by you in September,
1874, was forwarded to the Red Cloud agency?
A. No, sir; I could not say that.  I took a receipt from the railroad
company, and instructed the flour to be forwarded. It was turned over
to tbe Kansas Pacific Railroad Company. It was sent from here to Cheyenne, I think; that is my impression. My certificate on file in the Department will show that the pork was delivered here to the Kansas
Pacific Railroad.
Q. Are you satisfied that in the pork inspected by you that fall there
were none of what are called neck-pieces?
A. There were none in the pieces I inspected myself.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Had you any interest, direct or indirect, in either the contract for
flour or that for pork in 1874?
A. No, sir; I have no iiitercst in any contract, and have not had since
the war.
Q. Have you received any compensation for any participation in any
contracts with Mn Slavens?
A. No, sir.
Q. You were selected as inspector by whom?
A. My first appointment was a telegram from Mr. Smith to inspect
300,000 pounds of bacon at Plankinton & Armor's pork-house in this
city. I didn't know any such man as Commissioner Smith at that time.
That was in the year 1873, and he afterward informed me by letter of
the Same date that I had been selected inspector of Indian supplies by
Colonel Robert Campbell, of Saint Louis, one of the Board of Indian Com missioners. During the year 1873, when I inspected flour, I was not re quired to brand it or stamp it, but took a receipt for jt from the trans portation company. Complaints were made at the agencies of musty
and wormy flour, in consequence of which I wrote to Colonel Campbell to
Saint Louis, suggesting that the opportunities for substituting flour were
so great that I thought a iiew system should be adopted, and suggested
branding or Some better mode of identifying the flour after inspection,
and the system of branding was adopted iii 1874. All the flour I in spected in ~873 I branded with my own name as inspector, and also the
date of inspection. There was no difficulty in putting in bad flour be fore that time, if the contractor saw fit.  It could be done without any
difficulty, if a man wanted to do so.
Q.Is there a grade of flour sold generally in the market made from
the middlings of good wheat and a low grade of wheat ground together?
 
592
A. Yes, sir; the largest proportion of flour sol~ around the country
is made in that way.
The following are the communicatious referred t( at the beginning of
Mr. Threlkeld's examination:
Inspector Th,~t1ke1d to Commissioner Smilh.
KANSAS CITY, Mo.,
~orember 25, 1874.
DEAR Si~: Your telegram 24th received and I replied to-day by wire; had inspected
S00 barrels, 200 of which was niess and 600 prime mess.
Mr. Slavens~s contract specifies pork-no grade named, and I at first declined to pass
the 600 barrels, but be contended mess pork was not contemplated in his contract, and
I did not consider I could very well refnse to pass it under the copy of contract furnished me, and accordingly done so.  He has 200 barrels now ready for delivery of
prime mess, and I have to-day notified him I would not accept any grade b~ow mess.
All iny certificates have been issued in duplicate only.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,  E. K. THRELKELD,
In~ecto r.
Hon. E. P. SMITH,
Commi~ioner Indian Affairs,
ll'ash~ngton ~`ity, D. C.
Inspector Threlkeld to Comniissioner Sotith.
KANS~ CITY, Mo.,
Norember 27, 1874.
DLAR S~~: Yours of 23d received and contents duly noted. In reply I would state
that in my letter of the 25th I reported the number of barrels of pork received from
Siavens to be 500 barrels, 200 barrels iness and 600 barrels prime mess. I notice your
remarks in reference to the advertisement under date May`25, 1874, and find that mess
pork was the grade for which bids were invited, and I also see in the same advertisements, double extra flour was the grade for which bids were invited, but by reference
to the sample accepted by the Department I find the grade scarcely superfine. I
would fnrther state that the copy of contract with Mr. Slavens says pork, not niess
pork. I refer to these matters to more fully show that I had no positive information
by which to be guided as to the grade of the pork.  Mr. S., when I objected to
passing the prime niess pork, assured me positively that that was the grade contemplated by him in his bid, and as Mr. Slavens is considered here as a very honorable
business man, I could not, with the copy of contract before me, do otherwise than
accept good, sound, sweet pork, without reference to the grade. I have retlised to pass
200 barrels prime mess offered on the 25th by Mr. S., and he has promised to complete
his contract with the grade you demand, mess pork.
Trusting my action in the premises may be found satisfactory,
I am, sir, your obedient servant,          E. K. THRELKELD,
Inspector.  -
Hon. E. P. SMITH,
Cmornissioner Indian Affairs,
~I'ashington, D. C.
TESTIMONY OF J. W. L. SLAVENS.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. Where do you reside, Mr. Sl~iVCfl5?
Answer. Kansas City, Mo.
Q. How bug ha'~e you resided here? 
593
A.Ten years.
Q.~~hat other contract for Indian supplies did you have last year
besides the contract for pork?
A.One for flour.  It was all in the same contract; but the items
were pork and flour.
Q.~~hat contract, if any, did you have for Indian supplies the year
before last?
A.N\~ell, I had one for furt~ishing beef to two agencies on the ~Iissouri
River-to the agency at Standing Rock and that at Crow Creek, I
belie~~e. Those were the two.
Q.N\~hat coiitracts, if any, did you have the year before that? Do you
recollect?
A.None in my own name with the Indian Department.  I had some
with the Army.
Q.N\~hat contracts have you this year?
A.For supplying bacon to Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies, and
to the agencies in the Indian Territory; and I did have this spnng a
three months' contract for supplyii~g beef to those agencies in the Indian
Territory.
Q.~~here did you procure the flour that was furnished by you last
year?
A.I bought it through commission men. I don't know myself where
it came from; I made no inquiries; I never saw it.  I don't think I
ever examined a sack of it.  I made my contracts with coininissioii
men, subject to the inspection of the Indian inspector, and when they
brought me his ~ertificate I paid for the flour, and not until then, iri any
instance. My contract was for delivery here; and beside the inspection.
certificate, the party furnishing the flour brought me also the railroad
receil)t for shipment by the contractor of~transportation. They were
the voucher~ upon which I got my pay, and upon which I paid for the
flour.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.~~There did you obtain the first two hundred barrels of pork you
shipped under the contract of 1874?
A.I thiiik in Saint Louis.
Q.~~hat grade of pork was that?
A.Mess-pork.
Q.And was worth here how mu cli per barrel?
A.~~ell, to one that had to have it here, it was worth ~24 a barrel,
and the freight from Saint Louis here.
Q.Did you buy it at that price?
A.Yes, sir; I bought part of it here, but the most of it-two carloads-were bought in Saint Louis; about one hundred and twenty or
one hundred and thirty barrels.
Q.You did not pack any of that pork yourself?
A.No, sir: in fact, we packed ii one of it ourselves except the last two
hundred barrels.
Q.N\~here did you get the other-that is, the six hundred barrels?
A.Mostly in Chicago; we delivered it in several deliveries.
By the CII AIRMAN:
Q.Of whom did you buy the one hundred and thirty-odd barrels in
Saint Louis?
A.From Dutcher & Co., commission brokers.
Q.A!)(l from whom did you buy it in Chicago?
38 I F 
594
A. I am not certain whit firm we bought it tlirougl~.  It was either
through llolden & Co. or Gilbert Prior & Co.; we had busii~ess with both
of them.  ~Ve may have bought a portion of these six huiidred barrels
here from Plankinton and Arn~or.
Q. I understand that you did not deliver any more until you began
packing pork here yourselves?
A. The last two hundred barrels were of liork we packed ourselves.
Q. The pork that you bought iii Chicago, was that delivered here?
A. Yes, sir; all delivered here.
Q. Your cotitract was to deliver it at Omaha?
A. Yes, sir; or Kansas City.  In the first place, I liad that changed by
that correspondence to niake Kansas City the point.  The freight from
Chicago to Kansas City was cheaper than to Omaha. All the Iiidiaii goods
are goiiig that way this year-Chicago, Kansas City, Denver to Chey.
enne.
Q. Ditl you ever see any of that pork yourself that you bought at
Chicago?
A. Yes, sir; I saw one or two lots.  I was not there all tlie time.  I
saw oiie or two lots when ~Ir. Tlirelkeld was inspecting them.  I saw
oiily tiiat lot of six hundred barrels while he was inspecting them.
Q. About how many barrels were in the old lot?
A. Two hundred, I think.
Q. ~Vhat was the grade of that pork?
A. It was prime mess pork.
Q. Was it a good quality of that grade of pork?
A. Yes, sir; what I saw of it was.  Commissioner Smith informed
me that I ought to have furnished all mess pork, as the advertisement
said iness.pork; and I then voluntarily offered to make good tlie differeiice in the commercial value between prime mess and mess pork; and
I niade that good in bacon, as the correspondence will show.
Q. The bacon you made that good in was at the market.price of
bacon at the time, was it?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. liARRIS:
Q. liad you any other contract for pork that year I
A. None, sir.
By Mr. FALTLKNER:
Q. Did I understand you to say that your adjustment of that matter
was the result of your owii ~-oluntary proposition and not any proposition coming from the Indian Department?
A. There was no suggestion as to any manner.  I made a rq~ly in
full to his statement.  lie said there were complaints ai~d that I had
brought discredit or trouble upon the Department by delivering a grade
of pork that was not so good as it should be; that it was not the kind
he intended should be furnished, referring to the advertisement; and I
answered that and stated what I had done and the reason I had done
it, and my views about the whole thing; and I wound up by saying,
however, if he thought it was just and proper, I would make this prQposition: that I would make good the difference between the commercial
value of the pork required and that which I furnished.
The CHAIRMAN. I will ask your attention to this letter of yours to the
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, dated the 11th of January, 1875, which
I will read:
KANSAS CITY, Mo., January 11,1875.
SiR:Referring to your verbal statement to me that a portion of my delivery of pork,
und~r my contract of July 11, 1874, failed to givu satisraction, being a grade you did 
595
not contemplate receiving under said contract, viz, prime mess, instead of mess pork,
I ha"e the hoi~or to submit the following statement
Ttie pork in ql~estion was bought subject to the inspection of the Government inspector, ni~der my contract, a copy of which he held.  I was not personally pre~ent at
the time the first lot of this pork was delivered, and never saw a barrel of it.  It was
bonght and delivered by the bosiness-firm of which I a~n a member, during my absence,
to meet a sudden and peremptory and threatening demand, coming to me by letter
and dispatch froni the store-keeper of Red Cloud agency, denianding, in the name of
the agent, immediate shipment of this pork, on the penalty of its purchase on the
market for my account.  This pork being the only pork in reach of nie, or with which
aii inimediate shipnient could possibly be niade, it was at once bargained for, subject
to inspection, as before mentioned.  I mention the fact of this nnexpected and threatening demand for an immediate shipment, within one n'onth of a prior delivery of 2i#i
barrels, becanse of the understandiiig had at the time of the acceptance of this coi~tract, the award having been made one week after the letting, and the advance in
pork in the mean time having rendered it impossible to furnish pork out of the old lot
without loss, that I would only be held to deliver in lots, from time to time, to meet
the requirements of the agency for current issues.
I had not, previous to this delivery, examined a copy of my contract, biit was under
the impression that mess pork was the grade required, and only learned from tlie Government inspector, after this delivery was made, that the contract did not require mess
pork, but that prime, if of fi'll weight and sweet, would answer.
And remembering also that the Army, during the war, at all times preferred prime
mess to mess pork, I was led to the conclusion, from the wording of the contract. that
either grade was acceptable, and that it was immaterial which, provided the special
instructions of the Government inspector were satisfi~l.
Having acted in good faith in the matter, I submit that I should not be held responsible for the full difference in value of the two articles, but will cheerfully do in the
premises whatever in yourjudgmcnt is inequity right. The difference in the commercial value ranges from one to two dollars, though at times prime mess has sold for more
money. The difference in actual cost this season is about one dollar and a half per barrel, which is about present difference in commercial value. Although having paid for
the pork delivered under this contract more than the Government pays me, I offer to
deliver a further amount of either mess pork or bacon sides to cover the difference in
the commercial value of mess and prime mess pork for the number of barrels of latter
delivered. ~~e have the property now on hand, and can deliver on any day.
I have the honor to be, very respectfully,
J.W. L. SLAVENS.
lion. 1:. P. SMITH,
Co in missioner of Indian Affaiis, Washington, D. C.
Does that letter contain a correct statezneiit of the matter anti of the
proposition?
A. I say in the letter that I did witness the first delivery; I state in
my examination that I witnessed one of the deliveries, and that it was
one of them; I am not sure which one it is. N\~th that exception, this
letter contains a correct statement of the matter-with the exception that
I may have witnessed the insl)ection of the first or second delivery of the
600 barrels.  In explanation of that reference to the fact that I was to
have all the time during the year to make the delivery that the necessities of the agency would allow, I will say the contract said nothing about
that; it was a verbal nuderstanditig liad with the Commissioner at
the time I accepted the award, about eigh~ dQys after the letting.
The price of pork had advanced in the mean time, so that I could
not possibly buy it at the price for which I offered to furnish it
although I had a margin at the date of the letting; aiid I said to
the Commissioner that I could not furnish it at that price, aiid that
I would not accel)t the award if I should be held to furnish it all
immediately out of old pork; that if I was only required to furnish
it from month to month, as the agency needed it, through the year, then
I could get even on the ne'v crop of pork, which. as a rule, the United
States over, is five or six do)lars lower per b'~rrel thaii pork is before the
new crop comes into the market.  lle said that would be all that wonid
be required-to flirnish it a~ ftst as the agenQv needed it, and with that 
596
understan'~i!)g I ~ccepted the award, and I delivered 200 barrels as soon
as they were called for. The letting was in New York City, July 2. Bids
were opeut~d at noon on a certain day.  I telegraphed to Ilolden & Co.,
of Chicago ai~d got the price of pork on that day and made a bid, reserving myself a margin, and the next day, and the next and every day on
until the a-vard, I was wanting to know whether I should furnish it or
not; and there was no decisioli made in regar~l to who should have the
contract until, in ~Vashington City some eight days afterwaul, I was
notified that I could furnish the pork; aiid tlieii occurred this conversation with the Commissioner.
By Mr. FAt'LKNER:
(~.Were those 600 barrels of pork sent to Red Cloud agency?
A. I have no knowledge, biit that was ii~y ~nderstanding.  I delivered it to the Kansas Pacific Railroad Company.  It was billed to the
store-keeper at Cheyenne.
By ~Ir. HARRIS:
Q. You understood, when you m.~de the contract, that you were bidding for mess pork?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It was not until you knew that your coiitract stated pork that you
vejitured to substitute prime mess-pork?
A. Yes, sir and possibly, if I could have got bold of mess-pork as
easily, I should have furnished it, and not the prime mess, although
there was a difference ii~ price.  I did not have any copy of the contract~furnislied me, and I bought mess pork, for I knew that was what
I bid to furni~h; but I hap~~ened to see ~Ir. Tlirelkeld's copy of the
contract, aiid discovered tl~at it (lid iiot call for it.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Did the Coininissioner of Indian Affairs tell you that it was a clerical error?
A. No, sir. This corre~po~~dence occurred after the pork was delivered.
Q. Where did tl)is idea of a clerical error come from?
A. Mr. H~rris says it ci me in a letter from Commissioner Smith to
~Ir. Threlkeld.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. There is a low grade, cilled prime pork, made up of thin and small
pork?
A. Yes sir; a'id prime mess is made up of lighter pork cut from
lighter bogs than mess i)ork.
Q. Do you know whether ai~y portioli of this pork which was purchased by you to m~ke up the 600 barrels was of tlie quality kiiown as
priiiie
A. No, sir.  I think it was all l)rime mess.
(~.Caii yon tell now whether you did ship aiiy prime?
A. I am pretty certaili that it was all prime mess.
Q. C Lii you tell now what you l)aid for any poi~tion of those 600 barrels?
A. No, sir.  I do not reji~eniber.  I think about ~~q. a barrel.
Q Do yoi~ think you p'iid for all of it the si me price?
A. ~Tery likely not  the mirket is changing.
Q. Hav~ vnn iii ~~`~`ir possession book or n~eaiis of telling what you
paid for all the pork ~ 
597
A. Yes, sir; but J)0t with me.  I have it in the office.
Q. Could you, without any great incolivenience, write a note to the
chairman of the committee, in Saint Loui~, within a few days, and give
an answer to the question?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I suppose, in truth, you put in under that colitract any pork that
would pass inspection?
A. Yes, sir; that was the test with me-inspection-in all contracts.
Q. Can you state what persons you bought pork of?
A. J have given you the names of the brokers through whom I got all
the pork-I did not pack myself; it was bought through brokers.
(?.Of course you purchased all that pork through brokers, subject
to the condition that it should pass inspection?
A. N\~ell, I don't know, either, whether that was in or not. It was
prol)ably inspected where it came irom~Chicago~and that was the
rule I adopted in makincr all purchases, I pre~ume, but I don't remember.
Q. So that if you followed your usual rule, you left it to the parties
of whom you purchased-left it within their power to furnish as low a
grade of pork as they could get to pass inspection?
A. No; not in that way.  They did not know what the pork was
for, or anything about it, only that it was to be sweet and full weight.
The standard of the Chicago National Board of Trade now is 190
pounds to the barrel, and the Government requires 200 l~unds. I
specified that it should be 200.pound pork, although I made a claim
on the Department for the difference.
Q. All you specified to your brokers was that it should be 200 pounds
of a certain grade known as prime mess-200 pounds instead of 190?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Beyond that, was there any condition that you should receive any
~)ork that should pass inspection?
A. No, sir.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Was the pork inspected in Chicago before it came here?
A. It seems all pork sold there passes through inspection. I don't
know how, but probably by the Board of Trade.  I claim that I should
get pay for so many thousand pounds of pork at the~rate of *21 a barrel, and 190 pounds in a barrel, but the Department wanted to hold
me for 200 pounds to the barrel.  In making my bid., I understood the
Government would go by the rules of the trade.
Q. Ilas the Government followed that rule heretofore-2()0 pounds?
A. Yes, sir; and 50 (lid tlie trade of the Ui~ited States all over until
the convention was held in Louisville, Ky., last September, a year ago,
at the National 2ork.p~cke~5 Conventioio, they adopted the Chicago
standard.
By Mr. 11APR15:
Q. I suppose that is adol)ted oopoio the theory that 190 pounds wil1
make 200 when salted?
li.Partly. It is also because l)ork cures better in I9O-loon lid lots-that
amount is enough to put in a barrcl.  I made no other contract for
pork except that one for 1,000 barrels.  ~Ir. Threlkeld inspected it all,
ani there was no pork went off that was not iiisl)ected.  A barrel of
1)01k will weigh on an average 3:30 l)ound~  that i~, 200 pounds of
1)01k. Tlie rest is h~ine aiid barrel.  The bari~l will weigh about 55 
5%
pounds.  In transporting it, it wants to be cared for all tbe time, sometimes to be recoopered.  NVben w& store pork we drive the hoops three
or four times during the year.
Mr. TllRELK~LD. I uiiderstood ~Ir. Slavens to say in conversation
that he had an understanding w itL the Commissioner to the effect that
he would not be too hard on him with regard to the grade of pork to
be delivered, so that it should be sound, sweet pork.
~fr. SLAYI~NS. I never had any conversation with the Commissioner
in regard to the quality of the pork.  Mess pork was understood; but in
regard to the times of delivery. I liad an express understanding with
him.
TESTIMONY OF PRESLEY CT. WILHITE.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Question. ~~ere you engaged in the milliiig busii~ess last year?
Answer. Yes, sir; have been for twenty years.
Q. Where?
A. I was at Lee Summit, Jackson County, Missouri.
Q. Did you furnish, last year, Mn J. II. Martin some flour that was
shipped to Cheyenne?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you rec~llect how much?
A. I think I furnished hiin, as near as  I can well recollect, about
twenty-three or twenty-fbur hundred sacks.
Q. llow large were the sacks?
A. One hundred pounds.
Q. \Vas it put up in double sacks?
A. Yes, sir, all of it in double sacks.
Q. What kind of flour was that?
A. It was what is known here as XX flour.
Q. llow was that flour made?
A. It was made from fall-wheat, all of it, except there might have
been a very small quantity of spring-wheat in it; they do not raise
much spring-wheat in this country; there might have been a few
bushels of spring-wheat raised in this county, if any.
Q. Did he furnish you a saniple ot the kind of flour he wanted niade?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did be tell you the kind he wanted made?
A. The first I knew in regard to the flout- was he wrote me that he
wanted me to furnish him a good, sound, sweet flour of what is known
in this country as a low grade.  Any article of flour  iii this market
that is not choice family flour is termed low-grade flour.
(~.Did lie tell you what he wanted with it?
A. No, sir; lie said he w~nted it shipped to Cheyenne, atid instructed
nie to brand the sacks "Red Cloud agency`~ or "Red Cloud Sioux," I
do not recollect which.  I had flirnished him flour the year belore, and
that is the reason I do iiot recollect.  One was "Red Cloud agency`~
and the other was "Red Cloud Sioux." Eithei year before last or last
year; it was in`74 and`72.
Q. Was the article of flour you niade for hiin of sound wheat; a
sound and healthy article of flour?
A. Yes, sir; it was all sound and sweet.  Last fall, if you remember,
was a very dry year, and we had no musty wheat; it was dry from 
599
before harvest clear o'i to F~bruar~-.  It was all sound, sweet wheat,
that I ~round for him.
Q. How is the difference made between first-class flour and this low.
grade flour ou~ of the same wheat?.
A. Among millers there is what is termed a straight grade, and that
is known as the first flour; the first and second being bolted at the
same time.
Q. The second rate, then, is bolted closer than the first; is tl~at wh~t
make~~ the grade?
A. It makes it darker, from the fact that there are more bran-specks
in the middlings.
Q. Are not these middlings grouiid over ~1gain with other wheat to
make this straight-grade flour?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then to make a lower grtde of flour, how is that done?
A. To grii~d the middlings by themselves makes a lower grade of
flour than to griud them with the wheat.
Q. flow was this flour made that you furtiished ~Ir. Martin?
A. The middlings that came from a bushel of wheat were ground at
the same time, and weiit in with the flour.  In making the ~Lartin flour
I reground the middliugs that came from the wheat in with the wheat,
which made what is called a "straight grade,' of flour.  If the middlings had been kei)t out, it would have reduced the quantity of flour
one-eighth orone-niuth. Although a low grade of flour, it was sweet and
whole~~ome, and made of a sound wheat.  It was in this market XXX
flour, but it went to the Government as XX flour.
(~.You have furnished flour to the Government for the use of the
military at 1'ort Leavenworth?
A. Yes, sir, a great deal of it.
Q. Did you ever furnish any of this same kind of flour lor tlie use of
the military?
A. Thousands and thousands of bags, to General Morgan, during tl~e
last six or eight years, and ii ever had a sack condemned-never.
(~.At what price did you furnish this flour to Martin?
A. I ~aid I furnished twenty-three or twelity-four hundred sacks.  I
mean I furnished thirty-four or thirty-five hundred.  The first two ship.
meats-the first twenty-two or twenty-three hundred bags-I firuished,
was at$2.35a bag, of a hundred ponuds. The last eleven hundred and seventy-five bags-about five car-loads-f furnished him at ~2.25; that was
the price delivered here at the State-line, on the railroad.  I have a great
in any friends out at Cheyenne; ThIr. Nagle, a wholesale grocery-man, aiid
other friends of mine, said 1 ftiriiished too good flour; that the ofh~cers
aiid a great many persons aroun~l there preferred it to spniig-wheat
flour, and they exchaiiged their flour lor miiie.  Governuiejit ofticers
iised it in preference to the spring-wheat flour fnriiished flieni fi~n~
Omaha.  Mr. Martiji tol(1 me so iii 1&insas City.
~? Mr. Martin never told you that there was any fitult found with it,
or that aiiy was rejected?
A. Yes. sir, not oii account of the quality of the flour, bu~ oii ac~ouiit of some difficulty he liad there with other contractors, iiiflue~i~~iiig
those wlio had the receiving of it; something of that kiiid  I do'~'t recollect distinctly  he had st~tne ditliculty, and h('t5 liad fieqiieiitly i~~r the
last teri or fifteeu years.  lie is a very shrewd, sharp, designing f('llo'v,
.~. II. ~I;irtiii is.  If he gets after a niai~ lie never l~ts up 0!) lii,ii and
something of that kiiid occurred-that they were trying to rule hiiii out 
600
or beat him, and he told me that some of the flour was ruled out on that
~cc0u~t.
Q.  lle never made any claim upon you for any indemnity for furn~shing him any bad flour, did he?
A.  No, sir.
Q.  Made no complaint to you that tlie flour was not good ~
A.  No further tha'i about the last payment he was to make; the payment was delayed; the draft went to protest, and he said it was on account of bis ft~rnishing the flour to another party, and they refused to
take it, and he was delayed in the payment; but it was not on account
of the flour.  That was the excuse that be gave me.
Q.  lle did not claim any deduction on account of the flour being bad?
A.  ~o, sir; he paid every draft right up, until, I think, the last draft
that came due; he did not pay it, and gave that as his excuse-that he
bad furnished the flour to another party, and the whole thing was confiscated; and be said that be lost $1,200 by the paities.
Q.  Did he tell you that the inspector of Indian supplies at Cheyenne
bad rejected some of your flour?
A.  I think be wrote something about it; he wrote to me something
about that~ but be told me it was not on account of the flour, but on
account of this other matter.  I do not know what it was exactly.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.  ~Vas all of the flour of the same grade substantially-all that yoll
furnished him?
A.  Just ~s near as could be made.
Q.  And all of wint~r~wheat?
A.  Yes, sir; I do not suppose there was any spring-wheat in it.
TESTIMONY OF S. B. ARMOR.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Question. ~Vill you state your residence and occupation?
Answer. My residence is 1~ansas City; occul)ation, beef aiid pork
packer.
By Mr. llARRis:
Q.  Are you accustomed to buy Texas cattle for packing?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  ~Vbat do you buy-those through cattle?
A.  Anything, fat or lean as yoil might say; pn'ucipally fat cattle, but
we buy a good many leaii cattle and tank them.  ~Ve have done so
several years, but that is not an every-year business with us.  ~Vheu
the bides will pay for the bulk we sometimes buy them a'id tank them.
N\~e get the hides and tallow, and horns.  N\~hen we can make it pay
we do that.
Q.  ~hat large cattle do you usually buy for beef?
A.  Froiu four to six or eight years old.
Q.  Do you buy oxen or steers?
A.  ~Ve principally buy what we call steers.  The~- are called beefsteers.
Q.  And you buy them the same year that they come here?
A.  Not always.  ~Ve often buy those cattle that have been wintered
over. 
(301
Q.Js your mode of buyiiig cattle according to the weight or the
head?
A.Both ways.  We have some years bought pretty largely iii the
spring and Summer Or) the plains and held them until October.
Q.Have you any Cxperiet)ce in weighing cattle on the hoof?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.What is your mode of weighing?
A.Scales.
Q.Do you weigh them right off grass and water, or do you lot them
before weighing? You are always t)uyens, are you not?       -
A.Yes, at certain seasons.
Q.`\Then you buy by weight, do you buy right off grass and water,
or do yo~i buy after lotting?
A.If we buy those cattle in the coul)try or on the plains by weight
at some railroad center, where we receive them, our custom is to stand
those cattle off feed and water for twelve or fourteen hours; that is the
common custom in this country.
Q.~Vhat would four.year.old steers, through cattle, weigh iii that
mode per head?
A.That depends altogether upon their condition and the time of the
year.
Q.Suppose they come through ai~d arrive here in June or July in
fair condition, and are kept on the ranges till September, October, or
November?
A.Well, on the plaii~s it takes a pretty fair lot of cattle to average a
thousand pounds, cattle of four and five years old and npward, as a
herd of cattle would naturally run.
Q.~Vhat, in yourjudginent, would be a fair estimate of the average
of such cattle; I do not mean the best or the poorest-I mean fair cattle
from Texas that have arrived in good condition and been kept over till
Septen~ber or October?
A.Well, I should say a thousand poun~s. It takes a pretty fair lot
of cattle to do that, however.  That would be about a fair estimate.
Q.And that is your mode of weighing them?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.You have iio interest, of course, in ai)y of these India ii contracts
for tlie supply of beef?
A.No, sir.
Q.Do you know anything about them personally?
A.I do not.
By Mr. ATliERTON:
Q.Did you ever sell cattle 011 the hoof?
A.No, sir. There might be an isolated case. I may occasiolially sell
a lot of cattle. These cattle would not weigh as much here as on the
plains. The same lot of cattle would shriuL 40 or 50 l)onii~Is.
(? Have you ever put in a bi(l to su~~ply aii Iiidian contract with
cattle on the hoof?
A.No, sir.
By ~~r. HARRIS:
Q.What do vou make of your slauglit~red cattle
A.Salted be~f and pickled beef packt (liii barrel~.
Q.What do you pay for cattle on tl~e hoof, such as I have been
describiiig, per pound or per hundred po~inc1s?
A.That is all governed by tlte ~uali~v of the cattle.
Q.Such cattle as you pack for beef? 
602
A. N\~e pa.v onlinarily froiii $2.35 to $2.75 per 100 pounds gross
weight.  That is on [he plains in the fall of the year, in September.
That would be, of course, according to the quality of the cattle.  Some
cattle we would not pay as much for, but we never buy any tanking
cattle on the plaii~s.  ~Ye aim to get good cattle.  ~Ve pack them in
barrels.
Q. ~~hat is tlie ordinary value of beef as you pack it in barrels?
A. Oh, well, it depends UpOil tlio quality.  There are four or five different qualities that we make out of these cattle.  Certain portions of
the cattle would make mess beef-that would be barreled beef; or extra mess beef-that would be barreled beef.  Then we ii~ake a grade
of prime mess beef, and Iiidia mess beef, that goes into tierces.  A
tierce is 304 pounds.
Q. ~~hat is a 200-pound barrel of beef worth ~
A. If it was mess beef about a fair market value last fall woiil~i
have been $7 a barrel.  Tierce-beef is a better quality, and accordin~
to the market value of beef last fall it would be worth about from $16
to $18 per tierce.
Q. ~~hat did you pay a bead for ~~attle on the plaii~s ~ N\~hat has been
the average price for beef-steers four years old and upward?
A. If we buy iu the spril)g and hold through the su mn)er, we generally pay from $20 to $22 per head.  ~Ye always aim to get a large class
of cattle; they are better for our business.  That is about the spflng
price.  In the fall they will average about $25 per head.
Q. Did your firm furnish any pork to Slaveiis last year?
A. N\re sold him a car-load.
Q. ~Vhat was it?
A. It was mess pork.
Q. At what season of tlie year?
A. I think it was in the month of Septeniber; I am not positive.
Q. Do you understand that that was tlie l~stcar-load he furnished on
his contract?
A. No, I did not uiiderstai~d it was tlie last; I uiiderstood it was
about the first.
Q. flow inaiJy barrels
A. I cani~ot say positively whether it ~as sixty or seventy.  Seventy
we generally consider a car-load.
Q. i)o you reioen~ber if he purchased 130 barrels iii S;iint Louis, aiid
then purchase~l 7() barrels of you to niake up the 200 bai-rels?
A. I do not know anything about that.
(~.~Vhat was tl~e cbaraeter and quality of the pork?
A. It was good.  It was our owi packing.  It was mess pork.
Staiidard mess pork calls for 16 l)ieces to the barrel, if I recollect the
ii umber of pieces, and at this time the standard of weight is 190 pouiids.
(~.Did you furiiish it at 190 poui~ds or 200?
A. I fi~rnislie~l it at not over 196 pounds of green meat; but this
pork`-ains iii weight.  It takes ~l) pickle enough to weigh the 200
pounds.
Q. There are, as I un~lerstand it, clear pork, mess pork, prime mess,
ordinary n~ess, and prime.
A. Yes, and extra prime.
(~.Is th;it a lower grade?
A. I think prime pork coiistitutes simply the shou'~ler~, just as they
are cut from the hog.
~?- ~~~ould you get any portion of the lie~d in priine pork ~
A. That would depend ui)oii how close they cut t~ the ears. 
603
Q. What is the diff~rence between mess pork and pri!ue in value per
barrel ~
A. There is usually $5 or $6 a barrel difference.
Q. Do you remember what he paid you for it?
A. My impression flow is that it was $21 or $21.50.  It might be a
half a dollar either way.  I knew what his contract was, and knew he
paid fully up to his contract.  ~Iy ilul)ression is, that it was $21, but I
could not state positively, without refening to my books.
Q. Do you know who inspected it ~
A. No, sir; only fron~ hearsay.  I understood that ~It. Tlirelkeld, or
his nephew, inspected it.
Q. Has your firm more tliaii oiie house in tlie city?
A. Yes, sir; we have a house in Chicago; Armor is the firm-name;
Plankinton & Armors, iii Milwaukee; Arii~or, Plai~kinton & Co., New
York.
Q. Did ally of these houses flirnish any pork to ~Ir. Slavens last
year?
A. I was advised by onr house in Chicago that they sold him pork.
Q. liow much?
A. I could not say how much, but several car-loads.
(~.~\~hat kind of pork did they sell him?
A. Prime pork.  I utiderstand by correspondence with our house in
Chicago, that they sold him shoulder-pork called prime.
Q. ~Vhat was the value of that pork in market theii?
A. I think it was al~out $16 a barrel at Chicago.
Q. What is the cost of freighting to this place?
A. Thirty-five cents per hundred l)onnds; about a dollar and ten ~cnts
per barrel.
Q. Was that pork inspected there or here?
A. I caili0ot 5(t~ about its beiiig ilispected there.  I understood i~'was
insl)ected here.
Q. Do yon know who inspected it l~ere?
A. Mr. McCullo~igl~, the ~~o~rd of Tra~le inspector.
WAsllINGTON, D. C., Fi'i~ay, ~~ptember 10, 1875.
Present: lion. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman; Prof. GEORGE W.
ATHERTON, Iloii. CHARLES J. FAULKNER, aiid lion. B. W. HARRIs.
Hon. E. I). SMITH, Coiiii~iissioiier of Indiaji Aff-iim~, and Profes~or
~IARSH were also present.
TESTIMONY OF BISHOP W~I. II. HAI~L'.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
(?i,1est.ioi~. I call yottr attciitic~ii to tlie foIlo'vi~ig paragraph in the
pamphlet containing Profess~,r ~I'tnsh~s chitrges
Essentially the sin~e excuse for tlie inferior chiin~cter of these cattle was ii~a4c l~y
tgent Saville, in ~V'ishington, June 1. 1~75,`vheii (inestioned hy J~islio1 ~V H. llare,
Ii) lily l~resenee, in Thigard to this particiil;ir issue.  ~geii~ S;iville then st.'it~d, tli;it tlie
condition of these cittle`vas owilig to haril driving..~onie forty~~.iglit h()iifl~ with littie grass or sleep. to hurry them  tli,r~~iigli. IS tlie Iiidiiins h;td li:tit iio heef for some
time, he having kepl hack rati(,iis t() induce tliciii tI)`c c0iiiite(l.  These cittle arriveil
in the mornilig. an 1 lie weighed Ilie iiio~t (,f then tlie same forenoon.  s,()iiiC few,
th;~t were wjld. he di 1 not weigh, hut estiriiate,1.  T lie issue`v-is Iii;L(i  011 the same
atteruoun ut the rece pt.  Atuoiig tlie cattic tiieii i~siicil wi-i-c fin-v I) more small and 
CO4
sc~lawag  cattle.  Agent S.tville was confident that the~e cattle, thin as they were.
~oiild weigh ~5O pounds on an average. On iny questioning this. he nsisted that
`~those he ~~eighed canie up to that average, and that those estimated were fully as
large.  He, himself, weighed ~ll of the herd that were weighed on the morning thay
arrived." ~lemoranda of the~ statements of Agent Saville were taken down at tLe
time 1~y 1)0th Bishop Hare and myself, and at a subsequent conference wtire found to
agree.
Now, do you recollect the extei~t of that interview that took place betwee~i yourself and Agent Savilie, which is tl~ere referred to, aiid if so,
give us the substance ofit, as far as you can recollect?
Answer. I accept this statement with the exception of oi)e or two
words that do not affect its substance. I would omit the phrase "forty.
eight hours." I don't deny it, but I don't remember it.  If it be a verbatim copy of the statement I sta'id by it, but there are a few words that
I do not remember. I will read it over again.  Reading:1 "Essentially
the same excuse for the inferior character of these cattle was made by
Agent Saville in Washington, June 1, 1875, when questioned by Bishop
W.11. Hare, in my presence, in regard to this particular issue." That is
so.  "Agent Saville then stated,`that the poor condition of these cattie was owing to hard driving some forty-eight hours with little grass or
sleep, to hurry them through, as the Indians had had no beef for some
time, he having kept back rations to induce them to be counted." That
is so, except I won't be sure about the words "forty-eight hours." "These
cattle arrived in the morning and he weighed most of them the same forenoon." That is so.  "Some few that were wild he did not weigh, bat
estimated." That is so. "The issue was made on the same afternoon as
the receipt." That is so.  "Among the cattle then issued were forty or
more small and' scalawag' cattle." I won't be sure about the number;
he may have said forty, but I don't remember exactly. "Agent Saville
was confident that these cattle, thin as they were, would weigh 850
pounds on an average." That is so.  "On my questioning this, he insisted that`those he weighed came up to that average, and that those
estimated were fully as large."' That is so.  "`He himself weighed all
of the herd that were weighed on the morning they arrived."' That is
so.
By the CHAiR~iAN:
Q. Did you nuderstand Saville to say on that occasion that these cattie would average 850 pounds, and no more?
A. Not to say so; but the impresson upon my mind was, that they
would not weigh more than 850 pounds.  I thought that a man who
wished to prove that the cattle were Ul) to the standard would not state
the lowest figure, but rather the highest figure which his conscience
would allow.  If, therefore, Saville again and again reiterated that they
would weigh 850 pounds, it was clear~to me that they would not weigh
950.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Saville stated that ii' tl~at conversation he was re~~catedly asked
by yourself or Professor Marsh whether the cattle would come up to
850 pounds as the minimum named in the contract to which he said he
`bought they would, and more?
A. I don't remember the "more."  I do`)Ot think he could have used
more." I think that would have made an iinpressioi) oil my niind.
Q. Then as to the other part of his stateme~t, that the q'~estion was
put to him to give the minimum number of pounds, or the average number of pounds stated in the contract; do you know whether the contract
was referred to in your conversation? 
605
A. The contract was referred to-not visibly produced, but referred
to verbally.
Q. I state to you as well as I can remember, without being able at
this moment to read his exact statement, the substance of what he said,
in order that, if you think proper, you can affirm it or contradict it, either
way.
A. I would not be willing to do more than to give my impression of
it. There were a great many other things on my mind; this was with me
a side issue. I am a minister; that was no particular business of mine,
and having asked about it, I dismissed the matter from my mind, and
attended to my usual affairs; and I don't wish to give anythiiig in ore
than as my memory serves me now.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. ~~hat I wish to arrive at is, whether or no you had any recollection that woul~l enable you to say, when Saville talked about the weight
of thecattle, whether be was speaking of their actual weight, or whether
he was only combattiiig the stateinetit that they would not weigh 850
pounds-merely disputing that statemeiit as a fact?
A. lie was disputing that as a fact-that they would not weigh 850
pounds.  But I talked with him and with Professor ~Iarsh so much
previously about it, and I thought he never state~l that they would
weigh q.~0 pounds; and therefore, when I ~aw that it appeared from
certain vouchers in the Auditor's Office that he reported thnt they
averaged over a thousand pounds, my heart sank withia me.  But that
is merely an infereiice of mine; I cannot present it as anything like evidence; I know nothing positive.
Q. I will ask you, Bishop if you recollect the circumstance of a conversation between Dr. Saville aiid Professor ~Iarsh in referejice to the
seven head of cattle that it was charged by Professor Marsh were very
inferior-the same that General Bradley gave a certificate in reference
to-if you remember Professor Marsh writing down something concern.
ing it, and Dr. Saville stopping him, and telling him that he misrepresen ted or misunderstood him?
A. I do remember it.
By Mr. FAVLKNER:
Q. liad you not better state, Bishop, what you recollect with reference to it?
A. I would rather be questioned.
Mr. FAULKNER. ~~e would rather you would give the statement as
it presents itself to your mind.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Dr. Saville saitl in his testimony before us:
~~hen I met Professor Marsh again it was in Bishop Hare's room in the hotel.  Here
this qoestion caiiie up again, and Professor Marsh stated, in si~hstance, that I ha~~ said
that I had received tho~e cattle, and issued theu' too.  I told bin that I had not said
so; that I said I thought I had not receipted for thejii, but I con id not reujeniher distilietly.  He then asked me,`- If you have received them, were they issued to the Iiidians ~" I said probably they were.  He then went to take it down, and then repeated over nearlv what he says there in the statement.  I stopped hiiii and told him
that he willfully misinterpreted or misunderstood me. I told him I thought lie was
trying to make up a case against me and he (lid not care how he did it.  By that time
Bishop Hare got up and put his baud on nie, for I was getting very aligry. I said a
good deal more, but that is the substance of what I said to hini about it.
Now, what is your recollection as to that conversation?
A. ~Vell, I do not think I can answer until I kiiow what is said in
Professor Marsh's pamphlet, which is there referred to.  I am willing to 
606
state informally, however, I understood tlie 1~oint I)r~~fessor ~`\Iarsh
made was tl~at Dr. S~'viile i~a~l said that i~e rec~~ipted for those seven
head of cattle, and thereby made the (;overninen~ resi~onsible for them,
while I understood Dr. Saville to say that he di'~ not receipt for them,
but simply received them.  lie inade a distinclion between the two
words.  lie (Saville) represented that they were driven up with the
rest of the cattle, and he had permitted them to be driven into the
corral, and afterward they were issned to the Indians; that he did not
receipt for them, although he received thei~. There is a distinction
plainly implied between the two words. That is to say, if lie had receipted
for them the (4overiiment would be respoiisible atid had to pay for them,
while, if be merely allowed them to be driven in and did not receipt for
them, tlie Governmeiit was not responsible for them.  If a man delivers six barrels of merchandise to me and I receipt for them, I ain
responsible for them, and then if lie afterward delivers four more
barrels, and I do not receipt for them, I aiu not responsible for them.
The difference was in the two words "receipted" and "received," Professor Marsh understanding that it was "receipted" and Dr. Saville
that it was "received." It was in regard to that that tbe feeling was
displayed. As to which Saville liad previously said I do not know.
By ~Ir. lIARRIS:
Q.  This is what I find in our record of Dr. Savill&s testimony taken
before us at Red Cloud agency:
Q-In the same connection Professor ~farsh says that "Agent Saville was confident
that these cattle, thin as they were, would weigh 550 pounds on an average;" did yon
make that statement to hini?
A.I shall have to explain that in tlie same way, by recalling what was said. Bishop
11 are asked me if these cattle wonld weigh, every one, a thousand pounds, and I said,
"No, they would not," and then reniarked that the contract did not require them to
be a thousand pounds in weight, and he asked me how much it was, and I told him
~5O pounds, and he turned to me and said, "Did these cattle average 8~ po~unds~"
asking a general explanation if they came up to the contract.  I answered him in these
words,` Yes, and more." Those I think were the exact words.
Q.Did you at any time claim in that conversation or any other that they weighed
859 pounds?
A.No, sir; not fixing the amount; only that they filled the contract.
I ask you now if that statement accords with your recollection?
A.  I would omit the words "and more," but if I was put on my oath
to deny that he said "and more" I should prefer not saying it, because
it is merely a matter of memory, and a in an's character is at stake.
Q.  Then, Bishop, how in other respects does the statement agree
with your recollection?
A.  Exactly.
By Mr. ~~ARsii:
Q.  Do you remember his speaking of the "thousand pounds" and
"the contract?"
A.  I do.
By Mr. llA~~~Is:
Q.  I want in that connection to ask another question: Do you
know whether or not Saville at that time, in the presence of Professor Marsh and~ourself, claimed that he was then speaking without his
books, and without the means of giving you the exact figures in the -
matter ~
A.  I do not remember that he claimed it.
Q.  Do you know whether or not that was the fact, whether he had
any books by him, or whether you had a transcript of the books? 
607
A.He did not produce any.
Q.Had you or Professor ~Iarsh transcripts of his acecunts?
A.I had not.
Q.Perhaps it could not be so at that time. because I believe you afterwards saw the record of his statement of the weight of the cattle
received on that day.
A.I saw it in Professor Marsh's statement.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.Bishop, have you read the pamphlet of Professor ~iarsh?
A.Not flilly.  I took it up, but I was very busy with other matters
and have not read it fully.
Q.Then you are not aware of what the diarges are which are made
in his statement to the commission?
A.No; not specifically.
(~. So far as you have read them and are awau of them, is there any
itiformation that you can give us that would be relevant to the questions
raised there, going to show the correctness of any of those charges; any
testimony in support of them that you could give us?
A.I would prefer you to ask me questions.  I have nothing to say in
answer to that general (luestion; but I should be very glad to answer
any particular question.
Q.N\~dl, then, are you aware of any frauds perpetrated upon the Indians by Agent Saville?
A.I am not.
Q.Or upon the Government?
A.I am not.
Q.Are you aware whether or not the number of Indians at the Red
Cloud agel)cy has been overestimated or overstated by the agent or by
anybody else, by which the Government has been wronged?
A.I am not.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q.I want to ask you whether or not you have so investigated that
matter as to have formed an opinion upon that sui~ject~
A.I examined that matter when I was at the agency in March, 1874.
So far as I know, Saville's reports up to that date regarding the number
of Indians were true.  But there is no subject upon which men have
such difference of opinion as upon the number of Indians. Regarding
the time when Professor Marsh was there I have no information.  I was
not there.  Upon the subject of the general question I would refer to
what I wrote ill my report: "In the third place, the testimony is
abundant and unanimous to the point that these agencies, always the
refuge in winter of northern Judians who have connected themselves
with no agency in particular, were last winter the resort of a larger
number than usual."
Q.Do you know anything in reference to the issue of annuity.goods
at Red Cloud ~genQv in 1S74?
A.1(10 not.
Q.You are not aware of any circumstance that might be regarded as
fraudulent in reference to the issue of goods ~
A.I an' not.
Q.Do you know anvthing of the quality of the be~~f issued by the
ageiit at the Red Cloud agency to the Indians?
A.At what time?
(? At any time? 
608
A. Regarding the time covereti by my report, yon ii ave here what I
have said
The con'mission took particular pains to inquire into the qnality and weight of the
beef furuished by the contractor during the current fiscal year. The testimony of
111 ally witnesses, and the personal observation of the niembers of the comuiission, convinced them that the cattle have been remarkably excellent in quality, size, and condition, and that their average weight has been, on the whole, considerably above that
required by the contract. The average weight required by the terms of the contract
ft~r the six months beginning Jnly 1, 1~73, was eight hundred pounds, while the cattle
actually tlelivered at Red Cloud agency during the time regarding which the incuinbency of the present agent enabled him to testify weighed on an average as follows:
First six niouths.
Date.                     No. of    Average  Total.
head.     wei~h1.
An"u.~ S                                          20    1.050  21,000
Angust 15                                        3~'1   1,010
epie~nber1                                      453    1.040 502,320
.pt~m1er15                                       561    1 056 5s9,050
t?cloberl                                        647             687.761
october 15                                       633  1,043      660,219
Nov~mher 1                                       290    993      257,970
November 15                                      410    963      396,470
Deceniber 1                                      507    975      494, 947
December 15                                      505    946      450, 568
The average weight required by contract di0ring the six mouths beginning January
1. 174, was one thousand and fifty pounds, while the average weight delivered was as
follows, viz:
Second six tooths, ll~ to date.
Date.                     No. of    AverAge  Total.
head.     wei~bt
January 1                                        312    904  282, 310
January ii                                       330    581  ~J(), 856
January21                                        349  1,002   310,908
February 2                                       356    993  352, 505
February 15                                      300  1,016  31)5,064
~t.trcb 7                                        350  1 063  372, 050
March 23                                           1    053  255, 425
These latter fi"ures are below those required by the contract, but not as much below
as those for the first six months are above. The whole average has been in advance of
that which the contract demanded.
I have read that report this morning anti I stand t~y every word of
it to~day.
(? flave you any knowledge on the snbject that is not embraced ill
y otir report ~
k Do you mean up to the time that report was nade, or since then?
Q. Since that time.
A. No, I have no knowletlge.
Q. Can you give 115 ti~e natnes of aliy l)ersons who l~~ve any knowledge on the suHect ~
A. No, I ca~~not.  I will say, gel~tlemen, that I stood by Agent Saville
bet~anse I believed liim to he all honest man iii a djfHcult position, fretted by meIl 5uI13~ of who~n had bad~motjves, until I met him here last
Jtine. Then I came to tiie co~~ciusjoi that lie was IlOt the nian for the
i)lice. 
609
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.~~as that conclusion based upon aiiy facts, or upon his temper and
character?
A.Partly upoii liis temper; partly upon the fact that he had been so
bothered and there were so many persons enlisted against him, that I
believed his influence for good was gone; and partly-I would rather
what I say would not be put down; it is not testimony; a man's character is at stake, and I cannot say it if it is to be l)Ut dowij-but I will
state what I was going to say for the benefit of the comlilission.
~Ir. llARRIs. This is not the time or place for confidential commuiiications.
Bishop llARE. Well, then, I will say, in the third place, that I thought
the Episcopal Church should no longer be 1~sI)oI~sibIe in any way for an
~ent regarding whose character so in any questiojis had been raised.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q.Do you know of any frauds or wrong~doii~g on the l~art of any
beercoiitractor at tlie P~ed Cloud agency, or at the Spotted Tail agency?
A.No, 1(10 not.
Q.Do you know anything of the character an~l quality of ~oii~e pork
that was issued at P~cd Cloud agency in I874?
A.I do not.
Q.Do you know anything of the quality of some flour that was issued
there in 1874?
A.I do not.
Q.Do you know anything of any fraud or wrong.doiijg on the part
of any contractor, iii reference to flour furnished to either of those
age licies?
A.You refer of course to Per5On'~l knowle~lge, not to what I have
heard people say.  I have ijo personal knowledge.  I do not thiiik I
have any information on that subject that is not coin mon rumor.
Q.Do you know anything of the character of the sugar, coffee, and
tobacco issued at that agency in 1874?
A.I do not.
Q.Do you ki~ow anything of the suff~~ring of the Iiidians iii the
winter of 1874'75 an~l the spring of 1875
A.I do not.
(Q. Do you know anything of the true distance from Cheyenne to the
I~e(l Cloud agency?
4 I know there is a dispute regarding that matter, based Upon the
different routes they m;ty have followed; one lea~liiig across the Pl'~tte,
at Nick Janis%~ ranch, which is the shorter route, and that by Fort
Laramie, which is the longer. The distince, as I and my colleagues
judged it to be, when we were there iii 1~7~, from Cheyenne to S;~otted
Tail, is given in this report.  I have no knowle~l~e of the distaiice.  I
have traveled it four, five, or six times, but I have no accurate know 1edge oil that sut~ect.
Q.Have you ai~y knowledge of any itistance of alleged frauds or mismanagement on the J)art of any person connected with the Indian DeI)artment, being biought to tlie knowledge or notice of the Commissioner
of Indian Affairs or the Secretary of the In~erior, of which alleged frauds
or ni ismanagement no notice was takeii by theiii?
A.No; none whatsoever. I have no knowledge of any such ca~e.
()n tlie contrary, I have never brought to the atteiitioii of tlie I)epartinent what I thought to be a supiclous I)rocee~ling that it was iiot immediately noticed aiid attended to.
J'9 I F 
610
Q. II' ve you ai~y kuowlc~ige or informatioli of ai0y frau~l or mis
1I0an'1gCI~~~!lt oji the part of any other person coniiected with the Ii~dian
DCpIrtIn~i)t that I have not called your attci~tiou t()?
~. I would like ~hat question to be limited to officers in authority at
~V't~lii1)gt()n ai~d Indian agents.  ~s it is, it is too geiieral a question,
and I 511(1111(1 have to ransack my mind for t'vo or three years.
Q. ~~ell, including agelits now boldiiig office, and about whom there
~re no investigatio~s set on fbot, against whom 110 ch~irges h;ive been
made?
k I woul~l ratl~er the questioli wouI~l be ~livid&~l.
Q. First, then, as to ofticers and ern~~loy~s iii tIe Departiiieiit at ~Vash
ington?
A. I can say perfectly fully and freely, regarding that, that all my intercourse with tlie Secretary of the Interior, the Assistant Secretary,
and the Coin missioner of Iiidi;in Affairs lias ten~led but to wiii for them
niy respect and regard.  I have never known of their being guilty of
any fraudulent practice whatsoever.
Q. Or tolerating it in others?
A. Nor tolerating it in others.
(~.Now, iii refereiice to the agents and em~~loyc's in the Iiidian country, is there anything that you know of concerning them?
A. Before I give Ii)y answer to that question I would like to say that
my relatioiis with Indian agents are somewhat confidential. I go among
them as a minister.  They know perfectly well that I have official relations "ith the officers of the Government.  Sometimes an agent tells me
thiiigs confidenfially, and I say to him," You ought never to have done it.
If you do it again I will report it to the Government."  Iii that way an
agent tells me confidential matters connected with his management.
Now, I will give 110y answer to your question.  It is this: I bave no
knowledge of fraud on the part of any agent now in the field.  i~egarding some, however, I have suspicions.
Q. ~Vell, can you give us the names of any persons who, in your opinion, would be likely to aftbrd us information going to establish any of
the charges contained in Professor Marsh's pamphlet-persons who
would be likely to know the lacts or to know of the frauds, if they existed?
A. I cannot.  The gentlemen whom you have questioned, the beefcon tractors and such persons, I suppose, could give you information.
Your question means that you wish to know if I have any knowledge as
a secret.  My answer is that I have no such knowledge or information.
By ~Ir. FA~LKNER:
Q. llas aiiything occurred since you prepared that report either from
your personal knowledge or on satisfactory infbrination, that would lead
you to vary or modify the conclnsioiis of that report so far as tlie administration of the agency at Red Cloud is concerned?
A. Nothing whatsoever to change my opinion regarding tlie administration up to the date of that report.
Q I was not speaking of the date of the report; I was speakiiig of
up to the present time.  llas anything occurred since the date of that
retiort, arising either upon personal knowledge or to your own mind satisfactory information, that would vary the conclusions of that report?
A. I have become very suspicious regarding the condition of affairs
at that agency during the last year; but I have no knowledge.
Q. llas the Episcopal Church ever intimated to the Department any 
611
want of confidence in the agent at Red Cloud agency, who, I believe,
is of their own selection?
A. Nevcr.  I wonld like to add to that, that upon conference with
the Co;ni~iissioner of Indian Affairs last Juiie, we both concluded that
Saville had better vacate his place.
Q. Can you assign aiiy reason why more progress has liot been made
in the establishment of schools and in missionary labors at that
agency?
A. The agency and the administration of the agent ii ave been the
subject of constant attack, and the agency itself has been the resort of
the wildest Indians. In the uncertainty which these two facts have ~)roduced I have felt indisposed to begin either schools or churches. Now,
~entlemen, I am perfectly willing, at any iliconvenience, to stay here
longer if it is essential to the truth; but my time is up. I am going out of
town and I have but twenty minutes to reach the railroad depot, and
the carriage is waiting for me. I would be very glad to stay if I can be
of any service. But I would like to say that I do not like to be asked
general questions in a public investigation.  I am willing to confer pri.
vately with the commissioners and give them all the information and
suggestions in my power. But I do not think I can, in justice to the
character of others, answer such Cr
pounded.                   ~eneral questions as have been pro  The commissioners being desirous to hear further from Bishop llare,
because of his extensive kiiowledge in reference to the management of
Indian affairs, prevailed upon liim to remain, and the:examination was
continued.
The CHAIRMAN. I can appreciate your delicacy in this matter, but
you might give us some suggestions that would be of use to us.
Bishop HARE. I have nothing to say on the Indian question which I
would not state in the presence of Professor ~Iarsh or any representative of the Indian Department, or to any gentleman who would be talking with me as gentlemen talk among themselves.
Some general conversation here followed, in the course of which
Bishop Hare asked Mr. Faulhuer why he had put to hini the question as
to whether anything bad occurred since the date of his report that
would lead him to modif~ the conclusions at which he had arrived in
that rel)ort.
Mr. Faulkner replied that the question was suggested to him by the
bishop's own remark that lie had stood by Agent Saville until the time
of his visit to ~Vashington in June last, when he came to the conclusion
that he was not the man for the place. The conversation then turned
upon the condition of affairs in that Indian country at the time the
bishop niade the investigations upon which his report wis based, and in
this connection the Bishop went on to say:
BISHOP HARE. Several white men had been killed in the neighborhood
of Laramie Peak within two days. So many murders had occurred that
the wtiites became alarmed. Iliad private information from Indians which
was threatening. Some men urged that these Indians had been driven
to frenzy by wrongs perpetrated UI)O~ them by their agents, and hence
there were warlike proceedings. I was telegraphed to by the (~overnment. aiid asked to go out to Red Cloud agency and Si)otted Tail
agen(-y (I was then at Yaiiktou agency) and examine into the true state
of aft~iiis at those agencies.  Those Indians had been put nuder my
ini~si( nary care, and the agents were the liominees of the Episcopal
Churc'i. I felt bound to go, and out of my going there caiiie this report. 
C12
I (lid hot ~o to examine iiito tl)~ truth of ~Ir. ~Valke?s report as my
clii~f bu~iness.  The question was altogether a bigger one that is to
say, geiitlemen, some people maintain that tlie Indians never do wrong
and never have committed deprt'dations that some white men must
have beeii the immediate cause.  That is all humbug. These Indians
are very violent, very savage, and burst into war simply from the violence of their natures.  Of course they are grievously outraged by
white men, but not always by their agents.  I have read this morning
the rq)ort which I made a year a~o last April, and I am pleased with it
to-day.  I will say, moreover, that in all my experience in the Indian
country the ratiolis that I bave see'i have beei~ wholesome aiid good,
but not flrst-cla~s.  ~t the Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies in
~Iareh, 1$74, I saw bad flour.  So far as I could discover, it was the remaiiis of flour set~t there the previous year.
~Ir. SThIITll. I wish tite bi$ht)l) \~~onld give the commission some idea of
his eNl)erienee  how extensive ir is.
~Ir. HARRIS. A it~ore pertinetit question would be: ~Vhat has been his
experience with referetice to the rttions at Red Cloud and N\~hetstone
agettcies?
Bi.~hol) ~AP'E. I was at Red Cloud aitd ~Vhetstone agencies in ~Iarch
ait~1 Apill, 1~74, atid again in August of the same year. Un tite first
oeeasion I niade an extetided exaitii'iation of the supplies, and my eonelusion-s were entbraced in this report, as follows:
Your con~ntission are of opinion titat a due regard to the interests of tbe Government and
th Itjdians detnatids tltat all packages consigned to agents for the Indians in fulfillment
of cottttacts, itould, witltout exception, bear tite brand which marks them as the property
of tite ittdian Departntent, and al~o tite brand of tite inspector, indicating titat they have
pa~~ed iti in~pection.
Tltcir exantittatiott of flotir in an tuloaded car at the Clteyenne store-i~onse, and of sup
plit- in that store-Itouse and at the agenctes revealed the fact that this brattding is freqn~t~tly ott~itted.  ~1atty packages bore neither brand.
~`l~e~ noticed that barroled pork is sttpplied to a degree at ~VIietstone agency instead of
bacon.  TIte sttpply of the latter article at botit Red Cloud and ~Vhetstone agencies was
exl~ait~ted~ 0 that the conttt)ission was tinable to judge of its quality.  They examined the
pot k. i~ou tvcr, attd found it sweet and good.
Tl~t- ct~tt~tt;t5~iott`vcre t.ot fnrni~lted with  amities, and therefore could not determine
~~ht tbcr tl~e  npplics were u~ to the standard reqttired by the contract.  They examined,
b~~' e~ r. tl~e tlttur, ngar. c~~ffee, and otl~er supplios on itand at both agencies and in the storeht~tt~.`tt Ci~eyettne.`1~lit-y were all (f fair qttaiity.  Botlt the ageitta agreed that it would
be bcttt~r tt provtde bakiig.p~~wdcrs in~tead of saleratus, as the Indians do not know how to
it~e tlte latter pr~~petly.
It is niei~tioited, lio~vever, soittewbere in the report, that there was
sonie flout' tltat ".15 I)oor.
(~.I wttuld like to 1i`t~P you describe t}ie flour which you say was
I)o()r.  ~N~hat was its character
A. It was stuck together as if it had been wet. It was mildewed.
Tlte ba~s were very iiiuddy, aiitl tlie r'tts ha~l eaten iii to the sacks.
(~.~~~ere you itiToruied wltetl~er or not tl~at flour was beiit~ issued ~
A. So iar as I kno~v it was isstietl to the Ittdians only for theii- lioiiies.
(~.~N~as there at tite SiltiP tiute a!iy flour of a difterent ~uality oil
hant!`?
A. Yes, sir.  I ate it iti bretid.  It ~v;is not first-class, but s~veet and
wholesome.
By Mr. FAVLK~LR:
Q. I)o I niiderstaitd you to say tIt tit that ~laiiiaged flour liad laiti over
fioni the l)revious year?
A. 1(10 not recollect exactly, hut that is aty ittipressioli.  I tit ink this
report of mi tie would niake th;it aI)ltetit.  It is cighteeti uioiith~ since 1 
613
made this report, and I have not looked it over since then nntil this
morning.  I remember distinctly this: that I discovered that the agent
then there was not responsible for the bad flour.  It did not come there
in his day.  I did not touch the time anterior to the appoilitment of the
agent who was then iu office.
By ~Ir. ATHERTON:
Q. In speaking of the occasion of your ilivestigation, you si)oke of
the ~~alker report. I wonid like to ask wl~ether or not the N\~alker
report was before you at the time yon were making your investiga
tions?
A. It was.
(~.~Vere your inquiries directed to the subject-matter of that rel)ort
such a way as to lead you to ascertain whether the charges contained
therein were correct or incorrect?
A. My attention was so directed to it.
Q. I uiiderstood you in your statement that it was merely an in cideiital matter?
A. So it was.  If I had beeii asked by the Government to go out
aiid investigate certain charges made by ~Ir. N\~alker from hearsay, I
would have dec]ined, because it would have imposed upon me the necessity of inquiH~ng into the quality of goods, &c., with which I am not
familiar.  The question is a bigger one, viz, "~~hat in the world is the
truth regarding the conditioii of affairs at the agency? One man says
one thing, and another man says another?' I was told I was on the
ground; that the Government had confidence in me; and I was given
to nnderstai~d that any recommendations that I or my associates
might make as to the proper way of managing those agencies, whether
by military officers, or in any other way, would be accurately and religiously observed.
Q. Your conclusions with regard to the charges coiitained in the
~Valker report are expressed in your own report?
A. Ei~tirely. I believe that report of ~Ir. ~Valker was most unfair,
and in its mode of inquiry, contemptible.
Q. llas your attention recently been called to a letter of ~Ir. ~Valker~s
iii which he reviews your report in connection with his charges?
A. I noticed the heading of such a letter in the ilewspapers.
Q. I)id you examine it particularly so as to notice the alleged discrepancies which he points out between your report and the facts as he
alleges them?
A. I glanced over the letter, and caine to the conclusioii that its
spirit was no more fair than that of his first report.
Q. I am not after the spirit now, but the ficts of that letter. lle
makes some specific statement of alleged discrepancy between the facts
as he found them, and the statements ii) your report.  ilas your attentioii been called to it so as to say whether this discrepaii~v actually
existed or not?
A. I have not read his letter careflilly enough t~ deteriniiic.
By Mr. llARRIS:
(~.I want to direct your attention back, P~ishop, to where you leave
the su}ject of Dr. Saville.  You stated specifically that up to a l)el'iGd
in Jiiiie, when you met Mr. ~farsh here, you had ibll coiiti~lei~ce in Dr.
Saville, and there you leave it.  That iu)l)lie~, l)erhaps, tb-it since tli t
pei'iod of time you have not had full confidence in lii in.  I want to ask
you this question: whether any flict came to your kn~wledge in June, 
G14
whieli has shaken your confidence in hiin; and, if so, wh~t is that fact,
or if not a fact absolutely within your own knowledge, ~et what sup
posed fact had that effect upon you ~
A. ~Iy confidence ill Dr. Saville is not so shaken that the opinion
that other men hold of him ought to be affected by it.
Q. N\rell, that does not quite answer my question. I merely want
to ascertain whether there is in your nijud some f('jCt~ or s~tpposed fact,
which affects your opinion of him.
A. There is a supposed fact.
Q. N\~hat is it ~
A. The statement in Professor ~Iarsh's pamphlet in regard to the
weight of cattle, as it appears from the books of the Second Auditor of
the Treasury.  In that statement it appears that the cattle averaged a
thousand pounds and more.  I (iid not understand Saville to claim
that they would average more than eight hundred and fifty pounds.
Q. Then it is that statement-the il-ict that the ca~tle were paid for
by the Government at those rates, (for we caii take it as a fact,) taken
in connection with the statement of Saville in the presence of Prof~ssor
~Iarsh that they would not weigh more thaii eight hundred aiid fifty
pounds-which affects your mind?
A. Yes; and an appearance of something like equivocation in Dr.
Saville. That is to say, Dr. Saville does not give a clear and concise
answer to a question, but I must say, in justice to him, that I do not
know anything which before ajudge and jury would convict Saville ef
not being a thoroughly upright man.
Q. It is stated in the report of the Auditor that the contractor re
ceived pay for cattle of those weights within those periods.  In the
conversation with Saville about it before that report was made, or before those documents came to the Departmeiit, S~ville, in a con versation with you, said lie thought they would weigh eight hundred and
fifty pounds, according to the contract.  If that statement of his is the
truth then you conclude that there has been a fraud?
A. Because of an infere ii cc in my mind that they would not weigh
any in ore.
Q. You reason ftou~ those two facts that there may be an error
there, or a fraud on his part
A. Yes; I do not consider it conclusive reasouing.
Q. Do you know aiiything now, except what you have stated, concerning the weight of those cattle, or have you any information except
what you have stated ~
A. No information what~oever. I am very sorry indeed I have said
~o much as I have on this subject.  I do not think it is fijir to Dr.
Saville.  These are things that while they may be talked of ai)~ong
gentlemen privately, yet such conversation is not matter of testimony;
and I would appeal to the chairman that all that matter should be
stricken out of the record. It has been wormed out of me, aiid it touches
Dr. Saville's character.
By Mr. llAR~iS:
Q. That is the way we have had to get a good deal of our testimony.  We have had to worry it out of peol~le.  I want to know
whether you know of any other fact which lias not been wormed out
of you? I am of that class who believe that the truth cannot always
be got out of a witness except by worming it out of him.  I want to
know whether there is any other fact, or supposed fact, which lias
affected your opinion of Dr. Saville ~ 
615
A. I cauiiot answer that question.  I will answer 110 question unless
it is understood that it is answ~red by courtesy.
Q. Bishop, my question may not be considered entirely fair, because
you have already stated your objection, but you said that up to a certain period you had known Dr. Saville; that you had believed him
honest; that at a certain tinie your mind was affected.  The same facts
would probably affect the miiids of the commissioners, or the same
supposed state of facts would lead to inquiry, and that is lily only object in putting the question.
A. My ans~er is that I know of no facts this ~lay which would condemn Agent Saville as dishonest or corrupt.  If it is a fact that he said
they would w~igh no more than eight hundred and fifty pounds, I should
sav he is dishonest.
~. And, on the other hand, if he says they will weigh fully eight hundred and fifty pounds, then there is another state of facts?
A. Certainly.
By Mr. MARSH:
Q. Didn't you conclude in your conversation on that evenilig with me
that he meant to claini that the average weight of the cattle was eight
hundi'ed and fifty pounds?
A. I did.
By the CllAIflMAN:
Q. May you not have beeii mistaken about what he iii tended to convev?
A. Yes.  I wish to be ui~denstood as sayilig so.
By Mr. MARSH:
().liow much time did your commissioii sl>end at the Red Cloud
agency?
A. The commissioners arrived at the Red Cloud agency Sunday
morning, March 15, and on Monday began their investigations into the
condition of affairs there, atid coiitinued them until March 18, when
they drove to N\~hetstoiie agenQv, and began a similar examination there.
They returned to the Red Cloud agency Friday, March 27, and resumed
their uvestigations, concluding theni the following Tues~lay.  Then
they resumed their examiuatioii at the N\~lietstone agency.
Q. liow much time was speiit in actual investigatioli at Re~l Cloud
agency?
A. I should think ten houn~ a day.
Q. I mean tlie number of days also; es~~ecially the number of days
in the investigation proper.
A. It is impossible to recall it accurately, but I should say at tlie rate
of five hours a day, for five days, at the Red Cloud agency.
Q. Did the agent know in advance of your visit, and (lid he make
I)Uel)arations for your inspection?
A. lie did know in advance; whether lie made I)reparations or liot I
do not know.
Q. liave tlie recommeiidations made by your comiiiission beeii car
rie~l out since by the Indian Bureau? I mean all the reconiniendatious
which you made, whether in your report or orally.
A. The recommendations are on pige 20 of my report.
(~.Fin~t in regard to those meiitioiied in tlie rel)oUt.
A. I ain not informed.
~t~ Do you know that any of the~e recomn~endations have becn fully
cairictl out 
(316
A. Yes.
Q. ~~hat proportion of the recommendations that you have inade do
you know to have been carried ont fully ~`.
A. I cannot answer that question ill that forn~.  If ~~ou number the
recommendations-number oi~e, two, three, four five &c., I caii give you
all my knowled~e about them.
Q. ~Yell, I will take your recommendation, which we will m~rk No. 1,
"That the agents at the Ped Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies, and at
any agencies hereatIer established among the wilder Sioux, to be supi)orted by a n~ilitary foice, which should, how ever, except under extraordinary circumstances, be at a short distance from the agency and not
in~mediately adjoiiiing.  Tlie relation of the ageilt and the comn~andiug
officer should be defiiiitely determined.  That an agency be provided
for the Northern Sioux, aiid that, to this end, they be refused rations at
the existing agencies, and a delegation of them be induced to visit ~~~ashin~ton, and that the location of the agency be in the neighborhood of
the Black Hills?"
A. I have no information as to whether that has been carried out.
Q. As to your second recommendation, "That all beef and other provisions be issued by orders on tlie issue-clerk, which orders should pass
through the office in order to their appearance on the book~ that these
orders be filed away for safe.keeping, and the books and papers of the
agency be the property of the Government and not of the agent?"
A. 1 don't know whether those recommendations have beeii canied out
or not.  They are very strong recommendations, bowever, gentlemen, to
appear in a report said to have been gotten up in the interest of the
Ring.
Q. As to your third recommendation, "That brands of United States
Indian Department and of inspector be placed upon all packages consigned to agents under contract?"
A. I do not know whether that recommendation has been carried out.
Q. Then as to the fourth: "Recommendation, as to beef for balance of
the current year?"
A. I don't know.
Q. Had you seen ai~ything in Saville's conduct before June, 1875, that
made you think him morally weak?
A. I decline to answer the question, respectfully, to you.  I would like
to add, with reference to Saville's moral character, that it is "equal to the
average."
~Ir. HARRIS. That term -` morally weak" lias not beeii used before.
Professor ~1ARSII. The bishop will ui~derstaud what  niorally weak"
nieans.
Professor MARsR. I have nothing more to ask.
Bisl~op HARE. I wish to say distinctly, that in the coi~versation between Dr. Saville and Professor ~Iarsh 1 understood the question at
issue to be whether the cattle receipted for came up to the average re
quired by the contract or not.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. I will ask you whether or not it was claimed on the one side that
they tli(l not come up to tlie average, and on the other that they did
was tl~at the matter of controversy
A. Yes.
By Mr. M AR SR:
Q. I uziderstood the issue to be somewhat differeiit from that.
A. I should be very glad to have my memory corrected. 
617
Q. Do you remember our conversation a'~out the actual weight of the
cattle before Saville came to your rooni?
A. Yes, sir; I think I do.
(~.~Vill you please state what that was in substance?
A. I think I remembered your stating that in your opiiiion they
would fall below the contract average; but I understand the issue when
Saville was present to be whether the cattle caine lip to the contract
average or not.  That is my memory.
Q. J)id he say anything that lcd you to infer that lie claimed in ore
than 850 pounds actual weight for that lot of cattle?
A. lie did not.
By Mr. BARRiS:
Q. Did you understand him to be stating tlie result of that weightthe figures which he remembered as the average weight?
A. Yes; here peated the fact, "I weighed them."
Q. Th~ question is whether you understood lii iii to be stating, when
lie referred to the weight, the exact ~v~~~~C weight?
A. No, sir; not the exact weight.
Q. Did he say anything about that?  Did he leave ul)on your mind
the impression that he had not then the weights, or that he remembered them, or whether he was giving the exact or the approximate
weights?
A. Be left such an impression that if I discovered that they actually
weighed 950 pounds, I should have been very much surprised.
Q. Upon this point the contro~-ersy between Professor Marsh and Dr.
Saville is brought down to a few words, Saville saying, "I said they
would come Ul) to the average and more," and the Professor claiming
that he said they would weigh that precisely.  I only want you to give
your best recollection upon that subject.
A. I omit the word "more," as I have said.
Mr. SMITH. I would like to have the Bishop state as to his habit and
mine of comparing view~, when we meet, respecting the integnty and
efficiency of the administration of ageiits for which both of us are respoiisibie.
Bishop BARE. Our exchange of views has been very free and full.
But let me say to the Commissioner that I consider my responsibility
of a very modified character.
By Mr. BARRIS:
(?.Do you know whether, from tlie statement of Saville, or ft'om other
sources, lie has received anything in the shape of presents, or iii any
other way any compensation from any coiitr'ictor or aiiy l)erson iiiterested in furnishing Indian goods or supplies?
A. I have no information whatsoever.
This ended the regular examination of Bishop Bare. Iii tlie iiiformal
conver~ation which followed he gave some account of his expeiience
among Indians generally, itis observatioiis as to their character and
customs, expressed his poor opinion of the " squaw-men" arouiid the
Indian agencies, and said the (;overnment should adopt a firmer policy
in dealiiig with the Indians. 
618
WASHINGTON, D. C.,
~q tu)~d(ty, 8epten~ber 11, 1S75.
Present: Hon. IHOThIAS C. FLETcllER, chairman; Hon. B.`V. HARRIS, Hon. CHARLES. J. FALLKNER, and Prof. GEORGE W. ATHERTON.
Hon. E. A. SMITH, Commissioner of Iiidian Affairs, was also present.
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL WALKER.
By the C~AiRMAN:
Question. Your place of residence, ~1r. Walker, is where I
Answer. Washington.
Q. And yonr business is what?
A. Clerk.
Q. How long have you resided in Wastiington ~
A. Four years and a half.
Q. Are y9n acquainted with Agent Saville, of Red Cloud ngency I
A. No, sir; never saw him that I know of.
Q. Have you been to Red Cloud ngeiicy I
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At what time~
A. I arrived tl~ere on the 9th of November, 1873.
Q. Do you know of any iiistances of Agent Saville defraudii~g the
Indiaiis by withholding from them provisions which lie charged against
tlie Government as being issued to them I
A. Well, I furnished sworn testimony to that effect.
Q. Doyouknowit?
A. I was tiever there at an issue, but I ft~rnished testimony to that
effect.
Q. That is i)rinted with you report is it nOt?
A. Yes, sir.  I have a copy of the affidavit.
Q. Do you know anything of it, outside of the evitience which you
ftirnish with your report-anything of your own knowledge I
A. Of his keeping back provisions from  the Indians I
Q. Yes.
A. No, sir; not of my own knowledge.
Q. Well, can you cite us to atiy persoiis who  ii ave actual kiiowledge
of such fact, outside of those whose StitelnelitS you took antl snbn~itted
with your report I
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Please to give us the names.
N I can give you the itame of one otlicr man, OL~5 W. ~Johnsoii.
Q. And how do you ki~ow that Otis W. Johnsoii has any iiirormation
on that subject I
A. From the fact that he was aii eiioployt' at the agency, and that
he told me he had the knowledge.
Q. He tOi(l you so I A. Yes, sir. Then there was another ma 10; I won't be sure of his name.
He had beeii Dr. Daiiiels's clerk, and knew of the facts.  I will get his
name.
Q. He knew of the facts of Saville with Ii olding from the Iiidians
provisions which he charged 0gainst the (~overi~ment as having been
issued to them I
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Yoti will furiiish us his nan~e I
A. Yes, sir; I will ft~rnish you his name. 
619
Q.Did this man you speak of, Otis W. Johnson, state to you any particular fact in reference to the withholding of supplies by Agent Saville
from the Indians which he charged against the Government?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.lie stated to you particular facts?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Did he state to you what Saville did with the supplies which
he charged to the Government as having been issued to the Indians?
A.He did not.
Q.l)id he state what supplies they were?
A.lie said coffee, sugar, bacon, and flour.
Q.Now, this was Johnson who told you this?
A.Yes.
(~. ~~liat did he state that Saville did with them?
A.He did not say.
Q.Did Johnson state this to you as of his own personal kiiowledge I
A.Yes, sir; he was clerk, and assisted at the issue. lie had been
clerk in place of young Appleton, and had teen an observer of operations at the agency.
Q.Now, what did he say?
A.~~ell, he said that the agent was issuing to the Indiaiis supplies
in very small quaiitities, and that those issues were charged as full
~ssues on the returns.
Q.Is that all he said about it?
k That is about all, sir; I could not remember very distinctly,
because I did not use his testimony myself at the time.
Q.N\~hy didn't you use his testimony yourself?
A.Because I did not find sufficient con~borative evidence.  I did
not take the evidence of any one man without corroboration; I did not
use the fact iii my report at all.
Q.Did he state what became of the supplies that were iiot issued to
the I~ldians I
A.~o, sir.
Q.Then, did lie say that the Indians were defraude~[ out of ally suplies?
A.lie (lid not ilse that word.
(~. ~Yell, although there might have been a partial iss~ie oiily and a
flill issue charged at any particular time, might not the same supplies
that were withheld thel) have been subsequently issued?
A.Yes, sir; but there is this point: that if a inaii i~sues half a pound
`ind charges a pound on the return, the inference is that there is a
fraud.
Q.N\~e will make the inference; we only want from you tlie flict.
A.You asked me in such a way that I could not explain it iii any
other manner.
Q.~Vhat did that other man say on tlie sui~jeet?
A.He said that tiie number of Indians that were represeiited to be
at that agency was vastly overrated.
(~. Did he say that he had ever counted the Iiidians?
A.Yes; he said he had counted the Iiidians, and their largest number was at the old agency, and there were not more than eight thousand
;tt the outside.  lie had been clerk at the a~~ency at the tiiiie tlie Indians first caine iiito the old a0enev tlie first great couiieil that was held
dnrin~ Dr. Daniels~s administr'itioii.
(~. Did you take his statement I
A.No sir. 
5%
pounds.  In transporting it, it wants to be eared for all the time, sometimes to be recoopered.  N\~hen w~ store pork we drive the hoops three
or four times during the year.
Mr. TllRELk~LD. I understood ~Ir. Slavens to say in conversation
that he bad an understanding w itb the Commissioner to the etfect that
he would not be too hard on him with regard to the grade of pork to
be delivered, so that it should be sound, sweet pork.
Mr. SLAYENS. I never had any conversafion with the Commissioner
in regard to the quality of the pork.  Mess pork was understood; but in
regard to the times ot delivery. I had an express understanding with
him.
TESTIMONY OF PRFSLEY CT. WILHITE.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Question. Were you engaged in the milling busiiiess last year?
Answer. Yes, sir; have been for twenty years.
Q. ~Vhere?
A. I was at Lee Summit, Jackson County, Missoun.
Q. Did you furnish, last year, Mr. J. II. Martin some flour that was
shipped to Cheyenne?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you rec~lect how much?
A. I think I furnished hiiu, as near as I can well r~collect
twenty-three or twenty-four hundred sacks., about
Q. llow large were the sacks?
A. One hundred pounds.
Q. ~Vas it put up in double sacks?
A. Yes, sir all of it in double sacks.
Q. What kind of flour was that?
A. It was what is known here as XX flour.
Q. llow was that flour made?
A. It was made from fall-wheat, all of it, except there might have
been a very small quantity of spring-wheat in it; they do not raise
much spring-wheat in this country; there might have been a few
bushels of spring.wheat raised in this county, if any.
Q. Did he flirnish you a sample of the kind of flour he wanted made?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he tell you the kind he wanted made?
A. The first I knew in regard to the flour was he wrote me that he
wanted me to furnish him a good, sound, sweet flour of what is known
in thi~ country as a low grade.  Any article of flour in this market
that is not choice family flour is termed low-grade flour.
Q. Did lie tell you what he wanted with it?
A. No, sir; he said he w~nted it shipped to Cheyenne, and instructed
me to brand the sacks "Red Cloud agency~~ or "Red Cloud Sioux," I
do not recollect which.  I had furnished him flour the year before, and
that is the reason I do not recollect.  One was "Red Cloud agency~'
and the other was "Red Cloud Sioux." Eithei year before last or last
year; it was in`71 and`72.
Q. Was the article of flour you made for hiiu of sound wheat; a
sound and healthy article of flour?
A. Yes, sir; it was all sound and sweet.  Last fall, if you remember,
was a very dry year, and we had no musty wheat; it was dry from 
62~
Q. You cannot say, then, whether the census of the Indiatis taken in
November, 1874, was correct or not?
A. I don't know what it was, except from memory, without referring
to the records.  I have my opinion about it, if you want that.
Q. I only want to know what you know about this matter.
A. I was not tbere in 1874.  I was there iii 187~.  I am willing to
inform you about that.
Q. I ask you if, in November, 1874, you knew that the cei~sns of the
Indians taken at that time was not correct?
A. As I stated before, I doii't know what that census was, without
ref~rence to the report.  After lookiiig (~t that, I would tell you what I
thought about it.
Q. Do you know anythiiig about it ~  That is the question.
A. I don't see why you should question me about the census of 1874
wh~n I was not there.  I do not thiiik you have a right to make me an~wer questions about the time I was there.
Q. If I ask you a questioii coric~rniIlg something that you ~1on't know
anything about, it won't take you long to an~wer it.
A. I don't know about that.
~1r. flAPlils. Governor, in onler to let the witness give an o1)iiiion, it
is fair to state to him that there weie 13,000 Indi'~!)s there in 1874.
~VITNE5s. iRiiderstaiid me; I st;tted that I did not ktiow aiiything
about what took place in 1874, because I was not there.  I doii't know
what was done.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. You said, however, if you knew the number, you could give an
opinion?
~. Yes, sir.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. All I wanted was, whether you knew anything about the correctness of that census which was taken in 1874.
A. If it was 13,000, 1 believe the nnniber "`as vastly overrated.
Q. Do you know anything about it?
A. ~~s, sir.
Q. ~Vell, tell us what you know.
A. ~Vell, I know that the number of Iiidians, fron~ the best in form ation that could be got there, including those men who were fi~miliar with
the subject
Q. ~Vlien?
A. 1873.
Q. ~Vhat was the number iii 1874?
A. Vuless you can account for the increase in some other way than
by natural laws, you caiinot show an increase of four thousand in a year.
Q. Is it pO55i~)lC that some other In~lians ma~- have come to the agencies in 1874 who were not there iii 1873?
A. It is I)ossible.
Q. Then there might have been more Indians there at that agency in
1874 than iii 1873?
A. It is possible; yes, sir.
Q. Now, then, what is your reason for thinking they were overestimated?
A. ~fy reasoil is this: that when I was`~t the agenQv t!)(' previous
year., from all sources of information~everybody I could talk witl who
was at all acquaiiited with the affairs-I estimated the lodges to be not
exceediiig eleveii hutidred. 
622
Q. Where?
A. At Red Cloud agency; and of course, unless there is some clear
way of accounting for the increase, I would be inclined to think that
thirteen thousand was a very great overestimate. Among other genflemen with whom I was talking on the subject was Gen. Jol~n E.
Smith, who was then commanding at Fort Laramie; also Jules Ecoffee;
and Thomas Ried, who was then sub-agent for the Arapahoes and Chey.
ennes.
Q. Did you take their affidavits?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do they accompany your report?
A. They are filed in the Interior Department.
By Mr. llA~RI5:
Q. They are not printed with your report?
A. No, sir.
By the CilAIRMAN:
Q. Are those all the reasons you have for believing that the census
taken there in November, 1874, was fraudulent?
A. No, sir. The number of Sioux given in the report of the Com
m~ssioner of Indian Affairs Mr. llARRIs. Any published reports are within our reach.
By the CHMRMAN:
Q. I want to learn Mr. Walker's reasons for thinking that that census
taken there in 1874 was fraudulent.
A. On what report of mine are you examining me as to the number
in 1874?
Q. I am not examining you with reference to anything at all in your
report.
A. Or any other statement?
Q. You stated that you did not believe that the census of the Indians
taken in November, 1874, was correct. I was asking you for your reasons
for so believing. ~ow, I would like to have all your reasons.
A. I gave them all. I was going to add one more, but it was connected with a report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. It is this:
If you will take the number of those Indians reported on the provisionreturns and compare it with the report of the Commissioner of Indian
Affairs, you will find it i~ nearly double.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. For what year?
A. 1873 and 1874; those two years. If you compare the provisionreturns in the Interior Department with the report of the Commissioner
of Indian Affairs, laid before Congress, of the number of Indians in his
care dnnng that year, you will find that the number rationed largely
exceeds the number reported to be at the agency by his own report.
For instance, in 1873 Agent Saville reported. ~ovember 8, that he had
issued to 2,419 lodges.
Q. What are you reading from?
A. My report, sir.
Q. The question I want to have answered is whether you are reading
from a published document?
A. I am giving the instances?
Q. If you are reading from a copy of an official report, that is all I
want. N\~at report are you reading from? 
623
A. ~Iy report to the Board of Indian Commissioners, of December,
187:3.
Q. And you are quoting from all extract from Dr. Saville's report?
A. Yes, sir; I am quoting from an extract from Dr. Saville's provission-returiis for that month.  On Noveml~er 8 he reported that he is.
sued to 2,419 lodges, or about 16,933 Indians.
Q. Is that his language, all of it?
A. Yes, sir; this is taken from his returns.
Q. Does he make the computation?
A. Yes, sir; his returns are on file in the Iiidian Office.
By tlie CHAiRMAN:
(?- N\~ell, go on.
A. The report for that ye~r does not show over 9,000 Indians.
Q. What report?
A. The report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, which is made
up from his.
Q. Does not the number of Indians at these agelicies vary at different
times?
A. It may, sir.
Q. Is it not the case that at Red Cloud, in the winter, there come
down from the North, from the B~g Horn country, a great many Indians
that are not about the agency and do not receive supplies during the
summer?
A. I went into that subject, too.
Q. Is not that the case?
A. Yes, but not to the extent that is represented.
(?- What do you know about the extent of it?
A. I learned at PLed Cloud agency-I was told there that the northern In~lians nearly all came there; I was told by ~Ir. Appleton, who was
acting agent.
Q. What did he tell you?
A. That nearly all the northern Indians caine there.
Q. To Red Cloud agenQy?
A. Yes, sir. Then 1 went to Whetstone agency, and they said virtually
the same thing there-that the greater portion of the northern Indians
came to that agency, and they gave as a reason that it was near to the
Black Hills; that the Indians did most of their trading of skins there.  I
met a chief there who represented himself as Lone Horn. He showed me
from Army officers stating the fact he was Lone Horn-certificates
many lodges he had there at Whetstone agency.  He was chief of the
Minneconjoux, who constituted the larger portion of the northern Indians.  He represented that he had about 100 lodges there, and that
there were somewhere between the Black II ills and the ~Yhetstone
agency nearly 200 lodges more that were coming in for the winter by
slow aiid easy stages, on account of the squaws and papooses; and they
were hnnting Some at the same time. I as~ed him, too, if there were any
other Ilidians up there in the Hills, and he said, no, there was not, and
that, when the Minneconjoux had left the Hills, there would be no other
Indi~ins there duriiig the winter.  So that reduced the northern Indians
to about 3()0 lodges, takii~g an Intlian's view of the question.  Now, if
there were only J0[) lodges of thos~ in addition to the young men of the
Red Cloud and \Vhetstoneagencies. and young warriors, that of course redn~-es the nu~nber by which those;~gencies would be increased, to about
1, CO).  After you account for the ~Iinneconjoux, 2,100, say, allowing 
624
sev~'u to a lodge, tlie simultaneous increase of both to about 14,O()0 can          not be accounted for upon any satisfictory basis.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Supposing you bad the facts?
A.Supposing you bad the facts.
Q.Supposing you did not have the facts?
~           A. I tried to get at every source of information.
By the CIlAiRMAN:
Q.Did you believe what Lone Horn told you?
A.As to the number of his lodges?
Q.Did you believe hiin?
-A. Yes; I did.
-(~. Di(l you believe all that he told you?
A.Yes  I did.
Q.Do you believe all that every lundian tells you?
~           A. I did not have a chance to talk with them. I dediiied to talk with
the Indians as much a~ possible.
Q.~Vhy did you decline to talk with the Indians ~
-A. Because my duty was to investigate tlie affairs of the agencies.
-I had no authority to make theiii any prouiises, and had no business
with them except to ask some questions.  If they answered truthfully,
all right And you ini~st remember this, which is conceded by all, that
when Iiidiaiis give you estimates of their numbers, they don't give you
~         the smallest ii umber; so wheii I repeat Lone Horn's words, I do not
give you the smallest number of tlie Minneconjoux.
Q.Have you beeii among the Indians a good deal?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Talked with a good maily of them?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Did you generally believe what they told you?
A.Not all.
Q.~Yhat Indiaii tribes did you have experience among besides the
SiQux ~
A.I have not liad any experience among the Sioux.  The only time I
was at a Sioux agency was when I went on business there.  I saw the
Southern Cheycunes and the Kiowas and Arap~hoes.
Q.How long were you at Red Cloud agency
A.I got there on the 9th of November; staid there four days; then
went to NN~hetstone. I left Red Cloud agency on the morning of No          vember 12; then I went to ~~hetstone.
Q.N\~hat date did you arrive there?
A.The same day, somewhere about 3 &~lock, between 3 and 4 o'clock
in the afteriioon.
Q.~~liat time of day did you leave L~ed Cloud?
A.In the morning, 1-in mediately after breakfast.
(~. How bug did you remain at ~Vhetstone ~
(Q. I left ~Vhetstone on the 17th.
Q.Then you were there four days?
_A. Yes, sir.
-(?- Ttieii where did you go?
-           A. I went back to l~ed Cloud.
-           Q. How long di(l you remain there, then
A.Two days.
Q.From there,`~here did yo-i go?
A.To Ch~eiitie. 
625
Q.Now, of the statements that were made to you in regard to the nnm
ber ot Indians that came in there to Red Cloud and ~Vhetstoue agen
cies which one of them do you believe?
A.~Vell, I don't know that I accepted any particular opinion.  I
formed no definite conclusion about it at all. I had a conversation with
General Smith at the ~Vashington House here, but I took the figures
given to me and used them as ueai4y as possible to arrive at a correct conclu~ion.
Q.N\~hat figures do you refer to?
A.Nick Jani&s, for instance, and those of Jules Ecoffee.
Q.Then you based your couclusioli as to the number of Indians there
ut}on the statements made to you by Jules Ecoflee, General Smith,
`jud Nick Jan is?
A.And Antoine Janis, Martin Gibbons, and the clerk of Dr. Daniels.
By Mr. ATllFRTON:
Q.I don't understand you to say you received any figures froin General
Smith but after a conversation with him you came to a conclusion?
A.I may not have said figures; but liis opinion of the number after
he came to N\~ashington.
Mr. HARRIS. It is not claimed that General Smith made an estimate
of the different tribes.
N\~iTNEss. He mentioned a definite number of the Indians.  lie stated
they claimed to have about (S~OOO at the ageilcy.
Q.During the four days you were at Red Cloud, how iiiany hours did
you devote to the examination of affairs there?
A.All the time, from daylight until ~J o'clock at niglit.
Q.N\-~hat were you doing during that time?
A Examining the employcs, exan)ining the accounts, talkitig to Appleton and the clerk, and everybody, from the agent down -everybody who
was not too busy to be examined.
Q.Did you take their statemeiits in writing?
A.No, sir; some of them I did, and some of them I did not.     -
Q.Did you base your conclusion upon any portion of your ii~formation that was not in writing?
A.Yes, sir, of course; I had to base my conclusion in a great measure
upon what was not in writing. There was nobody there who could admini~ter an oath, an~t I had to take statements, aiid if I found them corroborated, I used them; if I did not find them corroborated, I would
not.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.I notice that you state in your report, that there was some corn
bought there for which the 1)rice paid was al~ove the market price?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.You arrive{i at your eoiiclusion by the process which you state in
your report, of talking with men wlio offered to furiiish it for less?
A.Yes, sir; by examii0ing the market-rates; going to a dealer in the
article aiid askin~ what the value of it was then at retail, without statilig my object at all.
Q.[)o you know the cost of l~auling 100 pounds of corn fromVJCliey~
enne 10 Red Cloud agency?
A.I don't think that is the way I arrived at the value of corn there.
Mc~ann was paid -~3.7I.
Q.~~liat cali they be hauled from there for?
A..~ am only qfloting from the price of corii at Cheyenne.
49 1 F 
C2(3
(~.Bt't tlie coiitract f~~r {leli~eriiig cor~i was so much per hundred
j)O1III(1~~ deliver~d (~t Re~l (floud agency?
~. TIie Cojami~s~oiier of Iiid'ai~ Affairs liad the corn delivered at
Cli~~y~iine;tt ~2.'26?s per hniitlred pouii~ls.
(~.Now, when you speak of ti~e market-price of corn at Cheyenne as
l~eiiig less than this, do you mean the market-price when you were at
Clieyeniie, or the market-price at the time this contract was made for
the corn
A. The market-price at the time I was there. I made in(luiries also as
to the I)rice I~ai(l at the time before that.
Q. N\~ell, what was the market-price at Cheyenne at the time this contract was made?
A. I could not say~now, from memory.
(?- I see yon state iii your report that the distance from Cheyenne to
the old Red Cloud a~ency, by the route usually traveled by heavy
trains is oi~Iy ninety miles?
k Yes, sir.
C~. How did you arrive at that?
A. I airived at that by the testimony of men who were performing the
contract for McCann wlio was that year contractor.  I also got it from
livery-stable keepers in Cheyenne; but, as they might have been inter.
ested persons, we took the evidence of McCanii's own men who were doing
the work, so that we could not be accused of being prejudiced by unfair
evidence.  I took tbeir evidence, and the testimony of General Smith,
a~id the ambulance-driver at Red Cloud agency, who knew the road
better than anybody there, having traveled it often.
Q. You say in your report that McCann charged the Government for
oiie hundred and thirty-two miles.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether he was paid for one hundred and thirty-two
miles ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. He was?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know that?
k Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether his contract that year for freighting was so
much jier hundred miles, or for the whole distance?
A. The contract for the first part of the year was for the distance from
Cheyenne to the old Red Cloud agency.
Q. Bad the cbange been made at the time you were there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you at the old Red Cloud agency?
A. Yes. sir; after the removal of the agency, there was a new contract for freighting.  The first contract was at the rate of ~[.20 per hundre~l pounds per hundred miles; tite new contract was at the rate of
$1.75 per hundred pounds per hundred miles; and that contract stated
the distance to be two hundred and twelve miles.  That contract was
also let without advertisement, and it was disapproved by the Board
of Indian Commissioners.
Q. Do you know any thing about the contract for removing the ageny
from the old Red Cloud agency to the new?
A. Yes, sir; I have a couple of documents here about it.  McCann
moved that agency; there was no contract for it at all.  There was a
kind of partial contract; it allowed him $2.50 a day per yoke for the
animals used. 
627
Q. \\~here did you get that from?
A. I got this frotn a copy of the voucher of McCann's, which he
presente~l for payment, for removing the old agency; he presented it at
the Indian Office, and it was approved there-a voucher for the service
of fifty teams, of five yoke of cattle each, for twenty days, at ~2.5O per
day for each yoke of cattle employed.  The total was ~14,375.  It was
sent to the Indian Office and approved there, then sent to the Bo~rd of
Indian Commissioners for their action.
Q. ~Vhat was the action of the Board?
A. Disapproved it, sir.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. Do you know anything about the amount of time employed, further
than the voucher shows?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. ~~hat personal knowledge have you, or what other knowledge have
you
A. I have an official letter of the agent who superintended the removal.
Q. ~Vhat is tbe name?
A. J. ~~. Daniels.
Q. ~~here did you get that letter?
A. It was addressed to Dr. J. J. Saville by J. W. Daniels, the predecessor of Dr. Saville, and during whose administration the work was
performed.
Q. That is a copy yon n'ade from a copy in the office of the Board of
Indian Commissioners?
A. Yes, sir.  I want to call your attention to this fact: There is a
difference between the statement that Agent Daniels makes and the
voucher that Saville certifies to.  In Dr. Daniels's official report, he only
repo~ts thirty ox-teams, of five yoke each, while Saville gives his certificates for fifty teams, of five yoke each.  Besides the ox-teams in Dr.
Saville's report, there are eleven horse or mule teams, some of them with
two mules, and some with four mules.
Q. Does Daniels certify to any mule-teams?
A. No, sir; but ox-teams.  llere are the two certificates:
Iaspccto;- Baa lets cert('lcatc.
CHEYENNE, WYt)MtNG TERRITORY, A~ust 27, l~3.
DEAR SIR: 1 send you a statement of the number of teams employed in the removal of
the Red Cloud agency, and their time, prior to my leaving the agency, on the 19th instant.
D.J. McCann, for Compton, had 11 teams, 5 yoke.
Charles Hecht had 10 teams, 5 yoke.
L.Richards had4teams, 5 oke.
John Freel had Steams5 yo e.
Nic.Janis, one (1) 4-mule team.
Paul Montale, one (1) 2-horse team.
Frank Saiway, one (1) 2-horse team.
Pete Bissinette, one (1) 2-horse team.
L.Langram, one (I) 2-horse team.
John Davidson had one (1) 2-horse team.
Morrison had one (1) 2~horse team.
John ~~ilson had one (I) 2-horse team.
N\R. Jones had one (1) 4-mule team.
C Janis had 2 (2) 2-horse teams.
First trip: Compton, Hecht, and Richards loaded with supplies, mill and agency material,
on the 29th July, and unloaded at the new agency August 5, 1d73.
Jones loaded the 4th of August with herder's camp and office fnrniturc, and unloaded t;ie
7th instant. 
628
John Freel loaded August 5th with flour, and unloaded tIre 12th instant.
Compton, second trip, loaded the 11th of August with flour, and unload~d the 15th Instant.
Richards, second trip, loaded the 11th August with Indians and offi~e furtiture, and unloaded the 15th instant.
N. Janis, Montale, Saiway, Bissinette, Zangraw, C. Janis, Davidson, Morrison, and Wil.
son loaded with Indians the 5th of August, and unloaded the 9th instant.
Recht unloaded the three teams with the mill on the 6th of August.
Jones was to receive $7.50 per day for goin~ over.
J. W. DANIELS,
United States Indian Inspector.
Dr, J. J. SAvILLE,
United States hrd~a'r Agent.
Age'rrt Serri~1es certific~te.
D. J. McCann:
For the service of fifty (50) teams, of five (5) yoke of cattle each, for twenty three days, from July 2~, 1573, to A~gust 19, 1573, hoth days inclusive, at two
dollars and fifty cents ($2.50) per day, for each yoke of cattle employed -- -- $14,375 00
I certify on honor that the ahove-mentioned nnrnher of teams were employed for the time
specified; that the exigencies of the service employed the employment of tire same, in the
renroval of the Red Cloud Indian agency from its former location on tlre Platte River to its
present location on the ~Vhite River; that I have not paid any portion of the amount; and
that there is due D. J. McCann therefor tire sum of fourteen thousand three hundred and
seventy.five dollars, ($14,375.00.)              J. J. SAVILLE,
United States Indian Agent.
One voucher retained in Indian Office.
JANUARY20. 1574.
Q. llad your Boar~l, at the time the voucher was presented, any knowledge of the contract for the removal of the agency-any official in formation about it?
A. I am not aware that they had.
Q. ~~as it not the practice of tbe Board to reject such vouchers as
related to matters of which they liad no official kitowledge or notice?
A. The practice of the Board to reject all accounts?
Q. ~Vas it not a practice of your Board to reject vouchers iii all cases
coticerning which they had not official information; that is to say, would
they pass a voucher relating to a contract of which they had tiot a copy
in their office?
A. They never kept coJ)ies, but they would not pass the voucher for
a contract that was illegally let.
Q. Now, I again recur to the question whether they would pass a
voucher in any case where they had not notice of the contract?
A. I don't know that I understInd you distinctly.
Q. Then, would they reject a voucher iii tlie case where a contract had
itot been let by advertisement? ~V(i5 that their practice?
A. Yes, sir.
(?- And when you say illegally let, you ii)ean let without arlvertisement?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you assume that all cotitracts let by the interior Dej~artuient
which were not made upon advertisinent to be illegal?
A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. N\'ell, now, the renioval of the agency was suddenly made, was it
not~
A. Yes, sir.
(?.An~t nade ill I)nrsuat)ce of 1)0 express provisions of the statute?
A. I never saw ally. 
629
Q.Do you know of any legal provision requiring advertisement for
proposals to do that work?
A.No.
Q.Did there not arise a controversy between the Commissioner of
Indian Affairs and your Board as to whether they had a right to make
that advertisement?
A.Yes, sir; that was a different affair.
Q.I mean concernilig this removal?
A.It was never presented to the Board.
Q.Was it never claimed, on the part of tl~e Board of Indian Coinmissioners, that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs had not a right to
make that contract without advertisement?
A.I don't know what contract you refer to.
Q.The contract for the removal of the agency.
A.They did not object to the contract at all, as I understood it.
Q.Was that voncher rejected because it was made in pursuance of
any legal contract, or because the amount was wrong ~
A.I could not tell you from memory; but the face of the voucher
shows it is wrong.
Q.Do you say that?
A.Yes, sir; it shows that Agent Saville certifies for fifty ox-teams
being e~nployed wheii there were only thirty.
Q.Your statement that it is wrong is based upon the fact that Dr.
Saville's certificate differs from the letter of Di. Daniels?
A. Yes, sir.
Q.Upon the presentation of those two papers to your Board the claim
was rejected?
A.I don't say that that was the cause of it; but I say there are the
facts that Dr. Daniels removed the agency and certified to the number
of teams that were used, while Dr. Saville gave a receipt for a different
number than the agent who did the work.
Q.And upon that fact your Board rejected the claim?
A.I cannot tell you what the action of the Board was without seeing
the record.
Q.Could not you remember tlie action of the Board?
A.I cannot remember the action of fl~e Board.
Q.Do you know of ally other fact which came before your Board prior
to its rejection?
A.I could not tell you from memory. If you will let me have access
to the records of the Board, I will give you all the history of it.  I have
some of them here.
Q.You don't kiiow from any information you derived at the time or
subsequently what was the final conclusioii as to the truth of who was
right and who was wrong?
A.I had information then that I did not use, and I don't care to use
it now.
Q.I only ask you if you afterward ascertained which of those two
agents was correct, Saville or Daiiiels.
A.No, sir.
Q.Do you know now?
A.No, sir I do not  but I believe Dr. Daniels was, because he did
the work.  There are the documents; th('y speak for themselves.
By Mr. FAULKNER~:
Q.Are you unable to state whether those accouiits have been ad.
justed ~nd paid? 
bj'~O
A. I have no ii~formation as to the action of the Board after disal)proving them.  They were not officially informed of the subsequent
action.
Q. You are not able to state whether those accounts were subsequently paid or not?
A. No, sir.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Do you know anything of the price of teams per day in that
country?
A. No, sir; except what is contained in the contract of Chad~s
lIecht with D. J. McCann.
Q. What is that report you were referring to?
A. It is a congressional report of the Forty-third Congress, first session, number 77S, page 267.  In that McCann agrees to pay llecht $6.50
per day for each team of five yokes of oxen, or about $1.30 per yoke.
Q. Is that all the knowledge you have upon the subject of prices
there?
A. I do not go any further; that furnishes evidence of the price the
work was done for.  It is between the contractor and his sub-contractor.
Q. Do you remember any correspondence that occurred between your
Board and Dr. Daniels, or anybody else and Dr. Daniels, with reference
to the removing of this agency, containing any proposals on the part of
other persons to do the work?
Q. Our Board never communicated directly with the agents in advance
of any action of the Indian Office.  There was no practice made of interfering with the working of the Indiau Office at all.
Q. Subsequently did your Board have information of l~roposals made
by anybody else to Dr. Daniels to remove this agency?
A. I cannot say without reference to our records.
Q You don't recall any?
A. There are a great many transactions in the Office, you must rem ember, and I was the only clerk there, and I could not remember them all.
There is Daniels's evidence.
Q. Now, to return for a moment to the subject of your investigation
at ~ed Cloud: You said that you were there four days?
A. I suppcse I was there six days in all; two after I came back from
Whetstone.
Q. In your report you state you remained there two days loiiger flian
you would otherwise have done, waiting for Mr. Bosler to bring in his
acconnts.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that the time necessary for your iiivestigation there was only
four days?
A. That is all, sir; that is, I had gone nearly as far as I could properly, without any aid, to get sworn affidavits or anything of that kind;
and as I had plenty of business in Washington, I did not waiit to use
more time there at the agency than was necessary.
Q. In this printed copy of your report there are divisions by beadlines; for in stance, here is one: "Indians cheated out of whole issues."
Is that a part of the report?
Q. Not at all; that is put in by whoever printed this report.  ~Iy
original report did not contain that at all.
Q. Then you did not make that charge in your report?
A. I stated the facts as I found them.  I furnished testimony on the
subject. 
631
Q.Here is ano~her note of that kind: "False and fraudulent receipts
for beef." That is put in in the same way, is it?
A.Yes, sir; I made the statement "false and fraudulent," but I had
nothing to do with those headings.
Q.You state there that the agent did not receive 647 head of cattle
on the first of October, nor 633 head Oil the 15th of October?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Now, if the agent received these cattle on any other d:~ys, but
dated his receipts on the 1st and 15th, in pursuance of a custom, then
your conclusion here that they would be fraudulent would not be correct, would it?
A.Undoubtedly, sir; undoubtedly my statement is that he did not
receive the cattle, especially the reported receipt of the 15th.
(~. Your statement is that he did not receive them at all at any time?
A.Part of them he did, but he did not receive on the 15th of October,
or at any time, a lot of 633 head of cattle.
Q.Now, will you say that, between the 1st ind 15th, he did not receive as niany as 647 head of cattle?
A.I say, between the 1st and 15th, he did not receive 1,280 head of
cattle?
Q.~Vill you say that before the 15th-at no time before the 15th, he
received in different lots the aggregate of that number?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.N\~hat are your means of information on the subject?
A.In the first place, his official receipt shows that be received 647
head on the first of October.  ~~ will take that as basis.  I say I do
n6t believe he received them.
Q.Why don't you believe it?
A.In the first place, the chief herder told me that on the night of the
30th of September, the herd of cattle which was brought up for October
1st was stampeded, and that only enough were recovered to make the
issue of the 1st of October.  Subsequently they are said to 11 ave made
an issue on tlie 8th.
Q.Did you learn from the herder whether these cattle had been received by the agent before the stampede, or did they stampede after the
agent received them?
A.They were sent out for him to receive them, he said, late at iiiglit,
and be refused to receive them, because he could not count them.
Q.Do you know whether the agent had received them from the contractor or not?
A.I can only make statements from the testimoiiy I got.
Q.Exactly. I asked you the question if you knew whether tlie agent
had received them from the contractor before the stampede or not?
A.I could not tell.
Q.You don't know that?
A.No, sir.
Q.Now go on with the grounds of your belief that he did not receive
the cattle that he receipted for.
A.After tlie 8th of October 1573
at all.,,there were ilo cattle at the ageiicy
Q.How do you know that?
A.From the te~timony of the acting agent; and there is other testimony on file with Bishop Hare's rel)ort.  There were no cattle theii at
tlie agency, and ti~ere was no issue to the ludiaiis froiii tlie 5th of October uiitil the 21st.  There was iio herd at the agelicy at all between
those dates; consequently there was no issue oil tiie 15th. 
632
By Mr. llA RRIS:
Q.  ~Yhere do y~~n get the evidence that there was no herd there?
A.  In the first l~lace I have a copy of an aihdavit prepared by the
acting agent for t[ e chief herder to swear to.  It is referred to in my
report. To make the matter snre, you will find it over Saville's own
name in Bishop llare's report.
Q.  I find that he states that he did have a herd.  In his reply to your
report, he says, "No issues were omitted in October, as there ~ere four
issues in that month at that time, on the 1st, 8th, 21st and 23d, only
that the issue of the 15th was postponed to the 21st; my reasons for
which postponement appear in my report of that month, to which I
respectfully refer."
A.  I say he made no issue between the 8th and 21st, but he says he
received 633 head on the 15th.  You will find in his own testimony that
he had no cattle at the agency from the 8th of October to the 21st.
Q.  lle does not say so.  lle says: "The papers of the agency do not
show that there was, on the 1st of October, on hand 17,914 pounds of
beef~ but did show on hand 11,068; that during that mouth there were
received, on the 1st day of October, 647 head, averaging 1,063 pounds
each, and on the 15th of October, 633 head, averaging 1,043 pounds
each.  That on the 1st day of October 1 did not have on hand sixty head
of beeves, but only eleven, for which receipts were given, which eleven
added to 1,280, would amount to 1,291, of which I issued 1,212 head
during the month of October, leaving 79 head, which I had on hand on
the 31st day of October, less 67 lost and ki]led by the Indians out of my
herd without anthority."
A.  But at the bottom of the page he says: "On the 1st of October
there were issued 267 head, and on the 8th there were issued 360 head.
After this issue a part of the agency herd stampeded, and I then decided not to keep an agency herd, but requested Mr. Bosler to retain the
cattle in his custody until I needed them for issning, which he kindly
consented to do, and also assisted me iii getting up the cattle which hal
stampeded." Now, here is the statement of B. F. Walters, who was
then issuing-clerk at the agency, arid he says that between the 8th and
21st there was no issue.
Q.  There is no controversy abont that.
A.  Yes; the point is, between the 8th and 21st he claims to have
received 633 cattle  Le had no herd at the agency from October 8; you
have his own statement to that effect, and that lie only got them from
Bosler's herd as he used them.  It is clear he made no issue of beef between the 8tli and 21st, and he did not receive 633 on the 15th.  lle says
that he cnly took them from the contractor as he issued them, after the
8th.  Very well; after the 8th, his first issue was 185 w
the 21st.  On the 23d, he issued 399.  Now, this is`  hich he issued on
according to his own
statement, or Mr. Walters' statement, taken from the agency books when
I was present.  If he had none on hand on the 1st, he obviously conld
not have had 633 head on the 15th of October.
Q.  Without the aid of the 633 head of cattle could he have made the
issue with which he is credited at all?
A.  No.
Q.  The issue, ~~ou say, was correctly made?
Q.  I don't sa~- that at all. I am using his statemejit to show that he
made a false statemen t.
Q.  I)o you claim that the 633 head of cattle were never at any time
received by the agent, or only that he issued a receipt at an imi)roper
time~ 
633
A. I claim that the 633 head of cattle were not received in that month
after the 15th of October, either in bulk or in two lots.
J3y the CHAIRMAN:
Q. You stated to inC, when I asked yoll the question if you intended
to say whether those cattle had never bce ii received by the agent, that
you did not know, but you did not believe that they were.  You are
now giving the grounds of your belief?
A. ~Iy reasons for stating specially is that the receipt of October15
is fuse and fraudulent.
Q. Yre there any other reasoils aside from those you have stated?
A. Yes, sir'.
Q. Let us have the in all; we want to take the widest possible scope,
and wish to get all your reaso')5.
A. ~Vhen I was making inquiries about the deliveries, I found that
tlie delivery of the 21st of October had n5t been weighed at all-that is,
there was l)o record of the weight, and they had not been weighed.
Q. You were not there?
A. I was tiot there.
Q. Anythiiig further?
A. No, sir.  I thiiik that is all on that poiiit.
Q. Are those all the reasons yoti have for concluding that the receipt
was false ai~d friudulent?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it the same in reference to the other receipt of the 15th?
A. The 15th is the 0i)C I am speaking about all this time; the receipt
of the 1st was cloudy and misty so far as I was concerned.  The chief
herder testified that he did not receive that number on that day, and
subsequently there was an affidavit of Bissonet,showing that there was
no issue on the 1st of October.
(~.Now, do you know anything, ~Ir. N\~alker, to the contrary, that it
was not the custom on the part of the contractor there to deliver lots of
beef as the agent required, taking a ~emorandum-receipt, or rather the
person delivering the cattle taking a memorandum-receipt for the contractor, while the agent receipted to the contractor on the 1st and 15th,
as of that date, for the cattle received np to the date of the receil)t?
A. No, sir.  I went there with the information that the contract required the contractor to deliver on the 1st and 15th of each mouth, and
the agent to receive them.  I never heard anything of memorandum-receipts, exc~pt from J. ~Y. Bosler.  lle is the only one who has ever said
a word about them to me.  I never heard the agent claiiu ~that he gave
memorandum-receipts.  lle never sai~1 a word of that to me.  I asked
his representative-r went to Mr. Appleton and aske~ him for his inforination on every sni~ject on which I reported.
Q. My question was if you knew of any such practice.
A. No, sir; I don't think I ever heard of it.
Q. It may, however, have existed without your knowi!)g it?
A. 0, yes.
By Mr. ATllFRr0N:
(?.These statements of Mr. Bosler that you speak of, what time were
they made?
A. lle made them to me last iiight  I ii ever heard of them before in
all the operations of the Oflice.
By tlie CllAiRMAN:
~TQ. I)id you ever talk- with him before about it? 
634
A. Yes, very often; I have very often had conversation with hiin on
the subject of beef.
Q. Did you ever ask him about them bef~r~~?
A. No, sir; I never supposed there was an~~thing of that kiud.
By Mr. ATIlERTON:
Q. What office did you mean when you spoke of the Office?
A. The Board of Indian Commissioners.
Q. They would not conic to the notice of the Board of In~iian Com.
missioners in any ca~e?
A. No, sir.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Mr. Walker, am I to understand you as discrediting the receipt of
the 1st of October, because there was no issue made upon the 1st of
October?
A. Yes, sir; and for the further reason that the cattle were
stampeded the night before.
Q. But the cattle, as I understand you, were stampeded on the 30th
of September?
A. Yes, sir; before they were delivered to the agency, before Agent
Saville receipted for them.  The chief herder said he refused to receive
them so late at night, because he could not count them?
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. That Saville refused to receive the in?
A. No, sir; he himself.
Q. Where did you derive that information?
A. Saville's own testimony; I find that he confirms it here.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. And you also discredit the receipt of the 15th of October, because
there was no issue of beef on the 15th of October?
A. Not for that reason alone, but becanse there was not a hoof of
cattle at the agency at that time.
By Mn llARRI~:
Q. I call your attention to his statement in regard to the stampede of
cattle, wbere be says, "On the 1st of October there were issued 267
bead, and on the 8th there were issued 360 head. After this last issue, a
part of the agency herd stampeded, and I then decided not to keep an
agency herd, but requested Mr. Bosler to retain the cattle in his custody
until I needed them for issuing, which he kindly consented to do, and
also assisted me in getting up the cattle which had stampeded." Do
you assume it was on the 8th?
A. Yes, sir; on the evening of the 8th; my information is positive on
that subject.
Q. llere is the statement as I find it: "The stampede may not have
taken place before the 15th." Now, if you have a fact which will supply
that deficiency, we shall be very glad to have you furnish it.
A. Yes, I will give it you; the information is positive on that point.
I have not got a copy of the affidavit here.  I will bring it to the commission when I come' again, but I refer you to the testimony of Mr. J.
II. Bosler, on the same subject, page 27 of Bishop llare's report. You
will find there he says that he turned over, on the 8th, 633 head; that
very soon after that the stampede occurred-the 8th or 9th.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. ~~e cattle receiptgd for as having been received on the 15th of
Octob~r, 1873-do you know that they were not received by Saville? 
635
A. Yes, sir; I do.
Q. Were yon there?
A. No, sir I was not there.
Q. Where were you on the 15th?
A. I was in ~~ashington.
Q. Then, how do you know the fact?  Will you cite us to that testimony?
A. A statement of Mr. Appleton to myself.
Q. Where is the statement?
A. It is here.  I will give you some further evi~lence iii regard to it.
Q. Where is the statement?
A. I referred to it in my report.
Q. Where will we get the statemeiit itself?
A. I will bring it to you.
Q. Now, what else?
A. And the corroborative testimony of J. II. Bosler.
Q. Where is that?
A. Page 27 of Bishop llare's report.
(~.~Vhat else?
A. That is all, sir; also the statement of Agent Saville himself, on
page 23 of Bishop II are's report, who evidently means that the stampede occurred on the 8th.
Q. Am I to understand you to say that there was a stampede oti tlie
30th of September?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~nd one also on the 8th of October?
A. Yes, sir. But one was a Goyernment herd, and the other the
Government had nothing to do with. The stampede of the 8th of October was of a Government herd, and the stampede on the nigh~ of the 30th
of September was of the contractor~s herd.  The chief herder at the
agency told me at the time that the c~~ntractor's herd stampede~l.
By Mr. FAUT~KNLR:
Q. You refer to the statement of Mr. J. II. Bosler, on page 27. I find
that he says this: "We turned over to Dr. Saville, on the 1st of October, 647 head, and received a receipt for them."  We would infer froiii
that that the cattle had beeti received by the agent on tlie 1st of October.
A. The chief herder informed me that the contractor~s herd stamI)ede(l
on the night of the 30th of September, and that they only got up enough
to issue on the 1st of October; and I afterward got the testimony of the
interpreter that there was no issue on the I st of October-sworn testi
mony.  It is uncontradicted to this dav.
By ~lr. llARRIS:
Q. Does not Saville claim that he did issue on that day ~.
A. That is a simple statemeiit; that is n~t sworn to; he d~n't contradiet it in his own sworn testimony.
Q. Do you say that his statement does not contradict it?
A. I say his statement is not as good evidence as swori~ t~stiu~ony.
Q. I ask you if ~Ir. Saville's statement, as publishe~l iii your own report, does not contradict it?
A. Yes, sir.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. Were you present to assist in the weighiiig o~ a herd ot cnttle received on tlie 18th of November? 
~3(3
A. Yes, sir.
Q. N\Tere the weights of the cattle on that occasion correctly stated in
the voucher returned by the agent?
A. I never saw the voucher that I know of, sir.
Q. Never examined it?
A. No, sir.
Q. ~Vere not the cattle weighed on that day?
A. All except six head.  It was late at night, and at the end of the
issue there were five or six old oxen that they could not drive on the
scales by any means. The ~orral was too large, aiid the herder could
not drive these six old fellows into the chute.
By Mr. llAnRIs:
Q. I will ask you whether the cattle you could not weigh were not the
largest cattle?
A. No, sir; they were very old cattle, and they were large old fellows
that you could not get on the chute anyhow.  There had been Some
larger ones weighed.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Since the date of this report of yours, has there come to your
knowledge any other facts going to show any fraud on the part of the
agent or any of the contractors at any of the Indian agencies; and, if
so, what?
A. The testimony with Bishop llare's report confirms that.
Q. I ask you if there has come to your knowledge, since the date of
your report, any other facts than those which you yourself had in rela.
tion to frauds by the Indian agents~or any contractor; and, if so, what?
A. The facts connected with the McCann contract came to my notice
since, which are to my mind evidence of wrong on the part of the agent.
Q. Any others?
A. I was not long enough in the office, officially connected with it, after
that; and I don't want to state what I don't know.
By Mr. llARRiS:
Q. Before Mr. N\~alker passes from that subject, I would like to have
him give us the weight of the cattle received and issued November 18,
1873.
A. I will read from my report: "On the 18th of November 410 beeves,
averaging 967 pounds, were received and issued. I was present and assisted in the weighing of the herd recei~~d November 18, and it was
said by the whites and Indians to have been the finest herd received
during the yean"
By the (~llMRMAN:
Q. N\~hat time did you quit the service of the J3oaul of Indian Com.
missioners?
A. I resigned to date ~une 30, 1874.
(?- Since that time have you ~
~iven auy attention to this subject?
A. Occasionally; yes, sir.
Q. You have examined into it?
A. ~Yhenever the subject caine up I always read it with futerest.
Q. liave you written soniethiiig on the subject?
A. Occasionally; yes, sir.
Q. You made investigations for the facts upon which you wrote?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. llave you correspQnded with and talked with others who have
been investigating the facts in reference to this matter? 
637
A.I`nay have done so; yes, sir.
Q.And you know of no other instances of fraud on the part of an
agent or contractor since the date of your report, other than the one
you have talked about, (the McCann contract); or do you know of any
persons to whom you can refer us who can give us any information of
any other frauds on the part of any person connected witlt the tlndian
Department?
A.Yes, sir; ~Ir. Steele, of ~Vyoming Territory.
Q.Do you know what information he can give us?
A.lle iiiformed me that he could bring forward good and reliable
meii who would prove that Indian sup~~lies have been Sold at Cheyenne.
Q.N\~hen did lie make that statement ~
A.lle made that statement in the early part of 1874.
Q.Is there any other person you can cite us to?
A.No; I believe not, ~ir, out there.
Q.~Vell, here?
A.None here.
By Mr. ATUtRION:
Q.Did Mr. Steele specify the kiiid of supplies he knew to be on sale?
A.I think he stid coffee and sugar, and some of the oats for N\~betstone agency were on sale there.  I don't mention Jules Ecoffee and
other men out there, because I understand you have seen all those.
You are inquiring for new information, I presume.
Q.lla~-e you read the statement of' Professor Marsh,,which this cornmissioii is called upoi~ to investigate?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.lIave you aiiy knowledge in reference to any of the charges contained in Professor Marsh's statemelit which you can give to us, tending
to establish the correctness of the charges ~
A.Refer me to some particular one, and ask me about that.
Q.Any one of them or all of them?
A.N\~ell, to begin with, he says, on page 4: "The evidence in my
possession reflects nufavorably on both Secretary Delano and Corn missioner Smith."
~~. Can you give us any information that will substantiate those
charges?
A.lle says he has reason to know that "they have bug been aware
of these abuses, but have made no sincere eftbrt to reform them."  Take
the McCann contract, for instance; both of those gentlemen knew
about the distance that McCanri was paid for in that contract early in
1874.
Q.llow did they ~et the information?
A.They got it officially froin the Board of Indian Commissioners.
That is, in the first part of it.  They got some two or three affidavits
which I sent in from Ciieyeiiiie.  Those affidavits were made by the subcoiitractors of McCann.
Q.~Vhom did you send them to?
A.To the office of the Boar~l of Indian Commissioners.
Q.~Vell, what did tlie Board of Iii~iian Commissioners do with them I
A.Transmitted tlieii~ to the Indian Office.
(~. You kiiow that fact?
A.Yes, sir.
(~, ~Vheii was that?
A.November 24, 1873; the original affid;ivits were trajismitted to
tl'e Aecretary of the Interior.  NVheii I returiied, tlie chief clerk of the 
638
Iiidian Otbce,?\Ir. Clum, asked me if there was anything additional on
the subject, and thereafter we transmitted a copy of llecht's contract,
the one I have before referred to, -vitli some additional testimony on the
subject.  Tl~ere was another affidavit, I cannot recall which it was now,
but they are all here in this docu~~ent.  They had all this knowledge
in their possession from the wagon-masters who were filling the contract
for ~IcCann.  They testified that the distance was from one hundred and
eighty-six to one hundred and eighty-eight miles, as (lid also the ambulance-driver at ~ed Cloud agency.
Q.  Do you remember his name
A.  Jo. somcthing.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.  Jo. Clymer?
A.  I don~t know his last name.  This evidence was tra'~smitted at
that time.
Q.  Are there any other matters that have been brought to the notice
of the Secretary of the Interior or the Commissioner of Indian Affairs?
A.  Yes; the over.deliveries of cattle at Red Cloud agency were
brought to their attention by the Board of Indian Commissioners.
Q.  ~Vhat do you mean by over.deliveries?
A.  Receiviug more beef than the contract required; I mean that
there were receipts given in advance of the specified weights in the
contract and the requiremeuts of the agency.
Q.  You mean by that that they were notified that the agent received
more beef than the contract required or was needed for issue at his
agency on that day?
A.  Yes.  N\~hat I mean is, that he was taking from the contractor
cattle in excess of the amount contracted for, which he did not need at
all at the time he received them.  The contract calls for so many millions
of pounds of beef, and I mean it was received faster than it was required
-to be delivered to tbe Indians.
Q.  ~~hen did they get a notice of that, and what was the notice they
bad?
A.  The Board of Indian Commissioners notified the Secretary of the
Interior in October, 1S73, that there were frauds practiced at Whetstone
agency-reported that to the Secretary of the Interior early in 187~.
Q.  Whatwerethey?
A.  Fraudulent delivery of cattle, and inferior flour.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.  In what respect fraudulent?  State that.
A.  The fraud consisted, according to the report of Messrs. Kemble
and Alvord, in the agent receipting for more cattle than he received,
and the fiourcontractor delivering flour which was inferior to the kind
contracted for.  It was so inferior as to be unfit for use.  I have a speci.
men of it here, if any gentleman would like to look at it.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes; we would like to see it.
[Specimen of flour shown.]
Q.  N\~ell, any other?
A.  About that flour and the other frauds: The Board declined to pa~s
certain accounts in consequence of the frauds, because the commissioners
were very p~sitive in recommending a thorough investigation before any
accounts should be paid to the contractors for flour and beef.
Q.  The Board recommended that there should be no more payments
to that contractor-G. M. Dodge?
A.  lle had the flour and beef. 
639
Q.When was that?
A.In August, Sel)teiuber, and October, 1873, and it was for the contract for the year 187~'3.
Q.Now, the Board recommended that no more payments should be
made upon the contracts for beef and flour to that contractor, who was
contractor for both beef and flour for that year, until the matter was investigated?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Do you remen~ber the date of that recommendation of the Boa-rd
of Indian Commissioners?
A.Well, this book would indicate that it was September 27,1873the report of the Board of Indian Comissioners for 1873.
Q.Where did you get that sample of flour?
A.I took it ~yself.
Q.~Vhere from ~
A.From a pile of flour at Whetstone`~gency.
Q.When~
A.On the occasion of my visit, in November, 1873.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.Who was at that time agent?
A.Mr. lloward; he succeeded the agent who was charged with being
implicated in the Dodge frauds. Risley is the one who was implicated
in the Dodge frauds.
Q.Then that flour had been received there before Agent lloward
came into office ~
A.Yes1 sir; it did not implicate lloward in any way; he had nothing
to do with it.
Q.Do you know whether at that time the flour had been paid for by
the Government?
A.No, sir; not at that time. That particular flour might have been
paid for; but Dodg&s account had nOt at that time been closed.  That
particular delivery may have been paid for, but the balance of the money
due him under his contract was not at that time paid.
Q.Do you know whether the Secretary of the Interior or the Cornmissioner of Indian Afflairs made any investigation into th~ subject~
A.There was an inspector sent subsequently, but his report was so
vague that the question again was submitted to Bishop llare's commission.
Q.Do you know of any other frauds or mismanagement of Indian
affairs that were brought to their notice?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.What were they?
A.There was the claim of G. M. Dodge for $~,054.84, that was approved by the Indian Office.
Q.Do you mean by that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Well, what was there wrong about it?
A.It was what was called a depredation-claim, that could not be legally paid unless specially directed by Congress, and there was no
proof of the fact that the beef was actually taken by the Indians siibmitted with it.
Q.~Vas the account for beef alleged to have been taken by the indians?
A.Yes, sir. 
C4O
~t~ Dodge was the beef-contractor?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. llad his herd up in that Indian country?
A. I don't know where he had it.
Q. Do yon know where the cattle were taken from ~
A. They were supposed to have been taken by the Indiaiis at Red
Cloud agency; that is, the assertion was that they were taken by them.
It was returned to the Interior Department because there was no proof
of the facts; and subsequently it was seiit back to the Board of Indian
Commissioners by General Cowen for reconsideration.  It was again
returned by the Board, pointing out the law on the subject that it could
llOt be paid out of appropriations made for the subsistence for Indians,
unless Congress specially provided for that particular claim, having eviden~e on the subject.  It was subsequently submitted to Coiigress.
The Board of Indian Commissioiiers ~lisapproved it, deciding that it
could not be paid out of a fixed al)l)ropriation, so fitr as the Indian
Office was conceriied; but actioii had been takeu on it to pay it, and it
was then subinitted to Coiigress with the words "no proof," and then
it was withdrawii. The ludian Bureau passed it.  As far as it was possible for them to do it they settled the accot~nt and ordered its pay.
ment from the appropriation for the subsistence of the Sioux.  ~Vhen I
was there the order was to state ati accouiit ii) the Iiidian Office, aiid
there to designate the apl)ropriation from which the accouiit should be
paid, and approve its payment.  That ai)pi-oval indicated that tlie Indian
Office was satisfied of tlie correctiiess of the claim; that is, the Com.
missioner of Indian Affairs or the actitig Commissioner whichever
might be acting at the time tite Indian Office approve~l it.
By Mr. SMITH:
Q. State the usual course of accounts before paymelit.
A. They are first stated in the [udian Office and then approved by
the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, after which they are sent to the
Board of Indiati Commissioners. They approve or disapprove, as the
case may be, and transmit the account to the Secretary o[ the Interior
with their reasons for their action if tltey disapprove it. The Secretary
then conflr~ns their action or sets it aside, as seems best to hiin. After
his action it goes back to the Iiidian Office for transmission to the
Second Auditor of the Treasury, who makes a report on the claim to
the Second Coinptroller of the Treasury, who approves or disapproves
that report, as the case may be; and the report as acted on is se~it back
to the Indiati Office for a requisitioll drawii on the apj~ropriation designated on the original account, which is signed by the Commissioner of
Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Iiiterior, then goes back to tlie
Treasury for record and appro~-al by the Second Auditor and Comptroller,
atid afterwani by the Register and Treasurer of the Vitited States, who
issues the draft on it.
Q. N\~hen this i~articular account came back to the Secretary of tlie
Interior with the disapproval, what was his actioii?
A. lIe returned it to the Board with a request for reconsideration.
That was the first action.  The second action was, the 1~oard iiidorsed
011 it a reference to tlie law which forbade its payment.  All I know of
it personally after that is, it was submitted to Congress with tlie words,
"no proofs," and that, finally it was withdrawn.  The Secretary eou~d
not approve it; the law Jbrbtde it.  The law stated th(Lt tlie Secretar~
of the 1iit~rior should prescrilie rules for taking evideiice on those
depredation claims. 
641
Q.Could the Secretary suspend or set aside the action of the Board?
A.lie could not set aside the action of the Board in that case. In
general, tbe law gave the Secretary power to do so, but in this case be
could not do so.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.Do you know that he wanted to overcome it?
A.The fact tbat he submitted it a second time is pretty good cvidence.
By Mr. SMITH:
Q.lie did not submit any additional reasons?
A.No, sir.
By ~1r. liARRIS:
Q.Was the claim assumed that while the Indians had takeii these
cattle by force and used them they should be chaiged as cattle actually
used ~
A.I don't know; you can easily understand why such claims as that
would bunch up.
Q.I am seeking to ascertain whether Secretary Cowen or anybody
else made any suggestiou why these cattle taken by the Indians should
be paid for to the contractor as if regularly delivered.
A.There was a suggestion that the ageilt at Red Cloud agency, I
understand, could take them up on his returns, and then they could
get pay for them as provisions issued.  Of course, that the agent could
not do.
Q.The question I ask is, whether your Board were urged to pass the
daim on the ground that the cattle had been actually received and consumed by the I~dians, and that therefore they should be considered as
actually delivered?
A.I would not be positive whether that statement was made to them
or not; if so, I have not seen it, although I was in charge of the office
at the time. I will say this, in explanation of that fact, that in some
cases of those rejected accounts they were retransmitted to the executive
committee without coming to the office of the Board; this might be one
of those cases.
Q.When you stated that the Secretary could not approve the bill, you
stated it from your own view of what the law actually is?
A.I~stated the law.
Q.~ou gave your opinion of the law?
A.This law distinctly says that those depredation accounts shall not
be paid.
Q.And you are of the opinion that this was a depredation account,
and could not be paid in any other way?
A.Undoubtedly.
Q.Did you satisfy yourself whether the Indians received or took any
cattle in that way?
A.~~hen the account is submitted for payment it is natural to suppose
all the proof necessary is with it.
Q.Did you have any proofs ~
A.Nothing only the letter of the agent. that he believed it was so.
That was the only account there was of it.
Q.Do you know whether at any time Injians have seized cattle in
that way, killed and used them, when the agent has delivered a less
ii umber of cattle on the next issue.day?
A.If he did, he took upon himself a responsibility he had no right to.
41 1 F 
642
(? I only tsk yo'i if yon have any knowle~lgc on that point?
& N(). sir.
By ~Ir. S~IITll
Q. I wojll(l like to a~k if the l('~~V.`~ccoo4iiig to the`vitnes&s iliterpreta
tioii, would loot preveoit ~oooy officer of the (4overtoment from approving
th;ot cl'Lino?
A. 1~ndonbtedly.
(~.The (Joinmis~ioner of Indiiu Affairs did aplorove it?
A. Yes.
Q. Tlocref~~re. it COUl(t be tlooie?
A. Ilis persoioal attion shows that he was guilty of an illegal act on
tloat occasoon.
(? Tlie Secretaoy of the Interior could loave approve(I it also?
A. He had 100 power to do so.  The idea is tlo~t the Commissioner of
Indian Affi~irs approved an account, and did it illegally.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. ~our id~a is that the Second Comptroller of the Treasury lias the
power to check ao~ illegal order of the Secretary of the Interior~
A. Yes, sir; so I uzoderstood it.
By ~Ir. SMITH:
Q. Is it customary in sending those papers to tlie Second Comptroller
for lois final action to have all the papers before ]~im?
A. The account, as sent to the Secoood Auditor, as I understand it,
should have every paper connected with the claim, so that he could
have tlie whole tloing before him.
Q. Then the accounting officer of the Treasury paid these accounts
with all the facts that the Indian Office and the Secretary of the Interior
had before them?
A. Yes, sir; but you will remember this fact, that there was an issue
made as to the power of the Head of the Department to order the payment in his own Department, and that Secretary Richardson, who was
in the Treasury at the time these payments were being made, informed
the Second Comptroller that the Secretary of the Interior would be beld
responsible for those payments, but to pay such accounts as he decided
to be paid.  Tl~is particular account was never paid.
By ~Ir. FAULKNER:
Q. Can you state what the practice was before that decision of Secretary Richardson?
No, sir; the law under which the Board of Indian Commissioners
was organized, and subsequent laws, require tloat accounts should be
submitted to them for their action before the final payment, fifty per
cent. of such accounts to be retained until their action was had.  Under
that law, when they rejected acconoots, it was found by the accounting
officers to be difficult to decide in every case exactly what they could
do, and that probably led to the conference on the subject.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Well, sir, do you know of any other instances of the Secretary of
the Interior or the Commissioner of Indian Affitirs1 or any person connected with those branches of the Government, floiling to do their duty,
or being guilty of any wrong-doing ~
A. Well, I am talking about the violation of the law now.  The Commissioner of Indian Affairs gave A. II. ~Vilder a contract for transportatiooo without advertisement, in 1873-'4, from Fort Randall to Whetstone 
(343
The first contractor offered to do the work for ~1.I2~ per hundred
pounds per hundred miles.  The contract was awarded to him, and he
declined to accept it.  I heard that there had been improper influences
used with him to get him to decline.
Q. Whom did you hear it from?
Q. I heard it in Cheyenne, and it was II. W. Moore, the store-keeper,
who told me.
Q. ~~ho did he tell you used the improper influences?
A. He did not say who.
Q. Did he say that he knew the fact himself, or that he heard it, or
saw ft?
A. I don't suppose he saw it.
Q. Did he hear anybody make a proposition of that kind?
A. I don't know; when he stated the fact to me, he didn't say whether
he knew it of his own knowledge or got it from somebody else. The
first contractor declined to execute the contract, and Wilder got it for
y~l.32 per hundred pounds per hundred miles.  lle wasn't a bidder at
all.
By Mr. SMITll:
Q. Was there any bidder lower than.~I.32-any bonafide bid~ler any
lower than that?
A. I don't know. The illegality consisted in giving the contract with
out first advertising it.  Subsequently Wilder sublet the contract to
Pratt, at Fort Randall, and Pratt sublet it to George Marshall, who was
the man that declined the contract at first, and, as I was informed, at
the original rate he had bid for it.
Q. Do you know whether the Commissioner of Indian Affairs had any
knowledge of this subletting
A. I don't know, sir.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. Was there any formal sublctting-any written assignment of the
contract to Platt?
A. It was testified before the Indian investigating committee that he
did the work; that Wilder paid him $1.20 per hundred miles, for trans.
porting to the agency.
Q. That answer assumes there was an assignment of the contract.
A. There is some evidence of that; I will refer to it.
By the CHMRMAN:
Q. Was there such an assignment of it as required the approval of
the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, or was any assignmellt approved
by him?
A. It is not usual for these contractors to come to the Indian Office
to make their assignments.
Q. I ask you if you know there was any assignment?
A. What I know of it is the testimony of Pratt's partner, before the
Indian investigating committee, that Wilder had it done at $1.20; and
the point of it is that Wilder, at the time that he got that contract, had
not a hoof-had no transportation.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. The claim i~ made that there is a fraud in lettii~g the coiitract.
All I want is to p ~t on record the clear evidence of this fraud.
A. The clear e~idence of this fraud is that Wilder had 1)Ot w~gon.
transportation at the point in question.  By the sublcttiiig in both in  
644
stances the Government was defr~auded; first, out of 12 cents per hundred pounds per hu~dred miles transportation from Fort ~andall to
Whetstone, which ~~ilder got without performing any service; the
second instance was ~~ratt's commission as agent, for himself and N\~ilder,
while the Government had a shipping-agent right there at the point.
Q. With transport;~ion?
A. lie was an agent, and took charge of the freight for the agency.
By the CllAiRMAN:
Q. And this makes a clear fraud to your mind?
A. It makes it clear to my mind that the Government was cheated
out of the balance over what was paid to the men who actually performed the contract.
By Mr. ATH1~RTON:
Q. I would like to ask right here what point in this transaction fixed
the charge of illegal action upon the Commissioner?
A. Letting the contract to a person who was not a bidder at all, without advertisement.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. I inquire whether the Commissioner has or has not a right to refuse
to take any bid1 and has it in his power to reject any or all bids if, in
his judgment, they are not at proper rates?
A. It is stipulated in the advertisement, but the law requires him to
let all his contracts after advertisement.
Q. Even though, after having advertised, he might reject all bids? Do
you say that, having strictly conformed to the law and advertised, lie
can then make a private contract?
A No, sir; I don't say that.
Q. You claim, on the whole, he can never make a contract until he
accepts some bids?
A. If he finds that the bids are improper bids, he is not forced to accept those bids; but he must advertise anew then; thatismyviewofit.
Q. Then you are stating your view of the law?
A. The law is clear of itself.
Q. I ask you if you are not now giving your view of the law?
A. I first state the law as it existed, and that is my view of the law
also.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. I will ask you, Mr. Walker, in case there is no bid, when he advertises, what he would do then?
A. I presume it would be for him to consult with the Secretary of the
~nterior and the Board of Indian Commissioners, to get the best terms
he could; if he could not get anybody to bid under this legal advertiseinent, thcn it is his duty to consult with the Board of Indian Coin missioners ai~d Secretary of the Interior, to make the best contract he can
for the Government.
Q. Now, in this case, if there was no other bidder than this man who
failed to make his contract good after it was awarded to him, what
would be the duty of the Commissioner then?
A. To advertise again.
Q. That is your view of the law?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. N\rell, in your judgment, would not the emerge~cies of the servioc 
645
determine the question when it would be proper for the Secretary of the
Interior to consult with those higher ill authority to make a private contract?
A.You said the Secretary of the Interior, sir, to consult with those
higher in authority than himself.
Q.I ask whether or not if the emergencies of the service must not
determine the question wheit it becomes proper for him to make a private contract?
A.There was no emergency.
Q.That is not my question.  I ani not asking your opinion as to that
emergency; only as to the power.  I ask you whether the emergency of
the service must not determine the question when it is proper to make
a contract without advertisinent?
A.Yes.
Q.So, then, your judgment of law does give the Commissioner of In.
dian Aff~irs, with the advice of the Secretary of the Interior and the
Board of Indiaii Commissioners, power to make a contract without ad.
vertisement?
A.When there is an emergency.  Of course it must be an emergency
clear and distinct.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.Do you know of any other instances of mismanagement or fraud
on the part of anybody connected with the Indian service?
A.Well, yes; for instance, in 1S73 corn was substituted for flour.
Q.Where at?
A.At Sioux City.
Q.Who did it?
A.The Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
Q.Well, what fraud was there about that?
A.In the first place, the change was made without any contract. The
Coin missioner of Indian Affairs said it was done under the recommend.
ation of the secretary of the Board of Indian Commissioners.
Q.Did he say that in writing?
A.Yes. lle sent it before the Indian Committee, but the secretary,
in stating his belief on that point, had no authority to represent the
Board, and lie did not, in fact, do so.
By Mr. SMITH:
Q.Do you know that?
A.Yes, sir; I know it from himself, Mr. Cree.  lle said he had no
authority to recommend it as representing the Board. In a j)rivate letter to Mr Smith he said he believed corn could be used advantageously.
By the CHMRMAN:
Q.State wherein the wroiig consisted iii substituting tlie corn for the
flour.
A.Iu payin~ extravagant prices for it.  At Sioux City the rates
which were paid to the contractor for that corn showed four diflerent
prices per hundred pounds for the same article.  The contractor~s name
was Kelly. The price of the corn for Fort Peck was y~4.5() per hundred
pounds delivered at Fort Peck.  That price was supposed to be the
price of corn at Sioux City, with the r;ite of tran~portatiou added
for An~-ust. Tit rate of transportation from Sioux City to i?ort Peck
wa~ ~~ per huiidred pounds.
Q.~Vhere do you get that from? 
A. A man may have a daim in the Indian Department which is not ~
just one.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. The oiily question is whether you will answer the question.
The CllAIRMAN. lle did answer the question.
A. The definite statement was, that the accounts of ~IcCann for May
and June were held up.
Q. Is that all?
A. If you will refer to page 217 of the same document, you will see
tbat Commissioi~er Smith made a report to the Secretary of the Interior
that the price allowed for corn under that agreement was the lowest
market-price at Sioux City, with freight from that point to the respective agencies.  That statement was made with reference to those four
prices which I pointed out, and it was untrue.
By Mr. SMITH:
Q. Was it not also stated before the committee to be a mistake?
A. No, sir; you said you did not know it was a mistake until your
attention was called to it.
Mr. SMITH. It is in there subsequently, in the cross-examination.
WITNESS. I refer now to Executive Document 123, Forty-third Congress, first session, page 42.  In reference to McCann's accounts,Commissioner Smith says the parties taking affidavits of other persons, freighters, have made the distance greater than thus presented, and that
all action in the matter has been cx pcirte, and designedly so.  lle referred there to the affidavits submitted by the Board of Indian Commissioners, which were those of McC an n's employe's, and were cx rarte only
in the sense of being as favorable as could be fi~r the contractor.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. Do you know whether the contractor or anybody else, who would
be affected by your investigation, had notice of your intention to take
the affidavits, so as to give him an opportunity to be present?
A. The contractor's agent procured the affidavits.  I went with the
p~son who was acting as the contractor's agent, and asked him the
distance.
Q. Did you write the affidavits?
A. I wrote one of them, ai~d he wrote tlie other when I was at the
P~ed Cloud agency, and gave it to me when I caine back.
By Mr. SMITH:
Q. Was not McCann in a quarrel with the contractors?
A. The qu~stion is unfortunate for you; he was iu a quarrel in this
way: he was paying them for a shorter distance than they supposed it
was.
Q. Wasn't he in a quarrel with them about pay in ent at all?
A. Yes, sir; he was paying them for a shorter distance than they imagined it was; they wanted to get pay for oiie hundred and eighty-six
miles, and he was only paying them lor one hundred and severity-five.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Was he paying them by the liundrcd pounds pcr hundred miles,
or so much for the whole distance?
A. Part of llecht'~ contract was that lie was to be paid a dollar per
hundred pounds for the whole distance; thcn, when the new contract 
647
A. The August rate is $2 per hundred pounds, which is higher than
the months in which the corn was delivered. In August tlie rates are
higher than in July; August, $2, September arid October, $2.50, July,
$1.25.
By Mr. llARRiS:
Q. Does the reference to the freigh t.arrangement pertain to the August rates?
A No, sir; nevertheless, when making my computatioii, it was a fiiir
allowance to credit him for the latter months.
By the CllAiRMAN:
Q. Mr. Walker, we shall be glad to have you call our attentioii to any
other matter that you know.
A. In the McCann contract, when the question of distance was bef9re the Indian Committee of the llouse of Representatives, Commissioner Smith stated td the committee that the accounts ot McCann
for May and June were held up until the distance should be measured,
and payments could be made for the whole transportation under this
con tract for the distance that should be found by actual measurement.
Now, there has not been a dollar held back from McCann under that
con tract. lle was paid every cent that was due him for the fiscal year
1873 and 1874 under his contract for transportation.
Q. You say "that was due him." Do you mean by that every cent
he claimed?
A. Yes, sir; every cent that he claimed for the whole distance, two
hundred aiid twelve miles.
By Mr. S~ITIf:
Q. Do you know whether there were not then or are not now other
accounts equally go~l which have iiot been paid?
A. I know that there were not then, not at any time during the fiscal
year 1873-'4, any equally good.  But the specific statement of the Conimsisioner is that McCann's transportation-accounts for ~~ay and June,
1874, were held up for payment, aiid that statement is untrue.
Q. Were all his accounts settled?
A. All his accounts under that contract were settled.
Q. At that date had he no account with the Indian Office.
A. At that date I cannot remember.
Q, At that date did the Indian Office owe him for services actually
rendered?
A. Not under this contract; and the other accounts which you refer to
are accounts which were disapproved by the Board.
Q. At that time, hid not McCann rendered services to the Indian
Office for which he had not received compensation?
A. I could not say that.
~? Was there not then due hita ictually for services rendered an
amount sufficient to cover that claim?
A. There was not; there was 110 approved claiiii at that time of McC aim's.
Q. I ask you if you know whether McCann liad not then actually rcalered the Indian Office services for which it was bounit to pay, and which
was sufficient to adjust that difference?
N lIe liad not; he had no al~prov~d just claim before tie 1)epaitineut
at that time.
(~.I ask if you know? 
C48
A.A man may have a claim in the Indian Department which is not ~
just one.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.The only question is whether you will answer the question.
The CHAIRMAN. lle did answer the question.
A.The definite statement was, that the accounts of McCann for May
and June were held up.
Q.Isthatall?
A.If you will refer to page 217 of the same document, you will see
tbat Commissioner Smith made a report to the Secretary of the Interior
that the price allowed for corn under that agreement was the lowest
market-price at Sioux City, with freight from that point to the respective agencies. That statement was made with reference to those four
prices which I pointed out, and it was untrue.
By Mr. SMITH:
Q.Was it not also stated before the corn mittee to be a mistake?
A.~o, sir; you said you did not know it was a mistake until your
attention was called to it.
~fr. SMITH. It is in there subsequently, in the cross-examination.
WITNESS. I refer now to Executive Document 123, Forty-third Congress, first session, page 42. In reference to McCann's accounts, Commissioner Smith says the parties taking affidavits of other persons, freighters, have made the distance greater than thus presented, and that
all action in the matter has been ex parte, and designedly so.  lle referred there to the affidavits submitted by the Board of Indian Corn missioners, which were those of McCann's employc's, and were cx ~arte only
in the sense of being as favorable as could be for the contractor.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.Do you know whether the contractor or anybody else, who would
be affected by your investigation, had notice of your intention to take
the affidavits, so as to give hi~ an opportunity to be present?
A.The contraeto?s agent procured the affidavits.  I went with the
p~son who was acting as the contractor's agent, and asked him the
distance.
Q.Did you write the affidavits?
A.I wrote one of them, and he wrote the other when I was at the
Red Cloud agency, and gave it to me when I came back.
By Mr. SMITH:
Q.~~s not McCann in a quarrel with the contractors?
A.The question is unfortunate for you; he was in a quarrel in this
way: he was paying them for a shorter distance than they supposed it
was.
Q.Wasn't he in a quarrel with them about payment at all?
A.Yes, sir; he was paying them for a shorter distance than they imagined it was; they wanted to get pay for one hundred and eighty-six
miles, and he was only paying them for one hundred and seventy-five.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.Was he paying them by the hundred pounds per hundred miles,
or so much for the whole distance?
A.Part of IIecht'~ contract was that he was to be paid a dollar per
hundred pounds for the whole distance; then, when the new contract 
649
was made, be effected different arrangen~ents with them.  Under the
new contract, for tbe removal to the new Red Cloud agency, llecht was
to receive during December, 1873, and January, February, March, and
April, 1874, $1.20 per hundred pounds from Cheyenne to the old agency,
and 12 cents per hundred pounds for each additioiial ten miles to the
new agency.
Q.In speaking of the affidavits as being cx ])arte, what is it you wish
to call our attention to in reference to ti'e matter that is wrong?
A.As an indication of the fact that Commissioner Smith was n~aking
a special pleading for the contractor; that is all.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q.I understand that they were empl~ye's of his, contending with him
were they in friendly relations with him?
A.Yes, sir; but still having a controversy with him.  The questioii
of distance was an unsettled point.
By ~ir. ATHERTON:
Q.Was the interest of the empl~v~s who made the affidavit~ for or
against the interest of McCann in the matter of tlie statement they
would make about the distance ~
A.For his interest, of course.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.N\ere they stating it less than the distance McCann was claim
ing it~
A.No, sir; they were stating iL as a distance beyond what he was
paying them for.
Q.Did they understand the distance as claimed by McCann?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.liow do you then say that their statements are in his favor?
A.None of the contractors knew the distance the Government was
paying him for; they understood that they were doing him a good turn.
They thought it ought to be increased, and that he would pay them
that was their statement to me. I think those same men testified to
those very facts before your committee, and I am sure of one thing-that
they didn't know what McCann was being paid for.
Q.Then it cannot be said that they were in his favor or against him?
A.No, sir.
Q.Then, therefore, coming back to the question, were they not exclusively cx parte t
A.No, sir; I think`iot; not cx 1)arte in the sense in which the Cornmissioner stated it, if you will read the whole letter.
WASHINGTON, D. C., Jilonday, 8epte~~~bcr 13, 1875.
Present:Hon. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman; Prof. GEORGE W.
ATHERTON, Hon. CHARLES J. FAULKNER, ai~d Hon. B. W. HARRIS.
Hon. E. P. SMITH, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, was also present.
Lxamination of SAMUEL WAI~KER resumed.
~VITNESS. I wish to complete my testil)ioi0y oil tlie ~I~~(Jai~n coi~tract.
The amount transported was al~out three millions of pouii('s for tlie
estimated distance 145 miles.
Mr flARRIS. Mr. Chairman, is his entleman testiQviiig from liis own
knowledge, or from records that are open to us? I certainly have sacri 
6.50
ficed t() this matter all the time I can afford to give, and I cannot spend
iny tiwe allowing the genfieman to argue frorn the ptiblic records, if he is
so argr~ing from records which are open to us.
~YiT:~~ss. The letter of the commission asked me for information, and
I give hem all the information I have on the points.
The`?llAIRMANi. Of course we do not wan t your mere conclusions
from the testimony.
WImNESS. I just state the conclusion I would give to anybody on the
subject. If you don't want it, of course I don't want to give it. The
letter asked me for informatio'i on the points at issue.  If you wish to
~lace any restrictions 011 me and will tell me how far I may go, I will
govern myself by it.
Mr. llARRIS. If lie is reading from public records and arguing from
them, it is not testiniony; it is an attempt, if such be the fact, to argue
from the testimony of other peop]e and from the public records, and not
to testify. Those records are open to us, and I don't think we ought to
spend our time in heanug arguments upon them.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Question. What is the information you have to give us?
Answer. It is information upon the contract upon which I have given tes.
fi;nony; I am referring to my own testimony, and I wish to complete my
evidence as to the McCann contract.  I will state that these surplus pay.
ments made to hiin for distance beyond which he is entitled to, if it was
145 miles, amounts to an overpayment of $57,000, and if it was 165 miles,
he was overpaid $39,900.
Q. Where do you get that information?
A. From the advertisement for supplies, and the amount of corn aiid
flour, and beef, and sugar, and an unity- goods passed for the year.
Q. Do you state that there was that much transported?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Of your own knowledge?
A. Not of my own knowledge, but to the best of my knowledge from
the papers that went through my hands, in that year.
Mr. HARRIS. Of course I submit to the judgment of the committee,
but I feel it to be an imposition upon me to be compdled to sit and hear
arguments made upon facts which are not within the personal knowledge of the witness, but which are facts of public record, which we
have called for, and which are in our possession.
The CllAIRMAN. What is the pleasure of the committee about it?
Certainly if it is not the correct amount transported, we will be able to
ascertain it.
Mr. HARRIS. I do not presume this gentleman is stating anything
that is not in the pnblic records.  I presume he is stating it correctly,
but we have it all.
~~TN1E$S. The point of my testimony is, I am speaking of a period
that is gone by, but my personal knowledge of that is asked for.
By Mr. IIARRtS:
Q. What personal knowledge have you?
A. As clerk of the Board of Indian Commissioners. That is all.  I
was asked on the point as to whether there was any knowledge of the
officers of the Interior Department, of any irregularity be[bre Professor
Marsh's statement was made.  I said I knew of them, and proceeded
to state them and my conclusions npon them.  I suppose there is no objection to that. 
651
Q. Your conclusions?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You can state the facts.  N\~e don't want anybody's help about
conclusions.
The CHAIRMAN. The conclusions we will arrive at ours~lves, if yon
give us the facts.
WITNESS. Under those circumstances I will say that iii coming here
I was prepared to give you all the informatioi~ I had, but I can simply
refer ypu to the records of the Board of Indian Commissioners, and you
can get everything I say.  I refer you to letters I), ~V, and K, for 1872,
1873, and 1874.  Those letters wilt give you all the information I
have.  They are in the office of the Board of Indian Commissiongrs.
They are letters received from the Coin missioner, and they refer you
to the originals from the Interior Department.
Q. Do you mean by letters the index letters?
A. Yes, sir.  I mean the index letters; they are in file shape, so that
the clerk can give you them.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. ~~~ll, go on with what you were proceeding to tell us.
A. No, sir.  I cannot tell you anything more than you can find there.
You can get all the informatioii I can give you in those papers, and in a
condensed form.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. I suppose all the information you have is derived from those papers.
A. Except from my persoiial visit to P~ed Cloud agency.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. And that is contained iii your report?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. You are now referring us to the sources of the iiiformatioii which
you are giving us?
A. Yes, sir.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Then you have no other knowledge of any matters that are pei'tinent to the inquiry of this coinmissioii, except what we ~`t~ fiiid thcre ~
A. Except what you will find in the files of tlie Board of Indian
Commissioners~no, sir.  Everythiiig I have stated here will be confirmed by those documents, if the files are complete.  I know they
could be confirmed by those files when I left them.
Q. Are there any other matters within your knowledge, or tlie knowledge of persons to whom you can refer us, rel'Ltii)g to any of these
charges and specifications contained in Professor ~1arsli~s painl)hlet,
besides those you have already referred us to?
A. No; except from l)ublie records which you have access to.  All
the information I have is from public records.  Some, of course, is from
private sources, but I do not feel`~t liberty to give those now.  But
the main I)art of my informatioi~ caii be coii(iumed by tlie public re ords
as they stand now. 
630
A. I have no information as to the action of the Board after disap
proving them.  They were not officially informed of the subsequent
action.
Q. You are not able to state whether those accounts were subsequently paid or not?
A. No, sir.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Do you know anything of the price of teams per day in that
country?
A. No, sir; except what is contained in the contract of Charles
IIecht with D. J. McCann.
Q. What is that report you were referring to?
A. It is a congressional report of the Forty-third Congress, first session, number 778, page 267.  In that McCann agrees to pay llecht $6.5(>
per day for each team of five yokes of oxen, or about $1.30 per yoke.
Q. Is that all the knowledge you have upon the subject of prices
there?
A. I do not go any further; that furnishes evidence of the price the
work was done for.  It is between the contractor and his sub-contractor.
Q. Do you remember any correspondence that occurred between your
Board and Dr. Daniels, or anybody else and Dr. Daniels, with reference
to the removing of this agency, containing any proposals on the part of
other persons to do the work?
Q. Our Board never communicated directly with the agents in advance
of any action of the Indian Office. There was no practice made of interfering with the working of the Indian Office at all.
Q. Subsequently did your Board have information of proposals made
by anybody else to Dr. Daniels to remove this agency?
~. I cannot say without reference to our records.
You don't recall any?
A. There are a great many transactions in the Office, you must rem ember, and I was the only clerk there, and I could not remember them all.
There is Daniels's evidence.
Q. Now, to return for a monient to the subject of your investigation
at Red Cloud: You said that you were there four days?
A. I snppcse I was there six days in all- two after I came back from
Whetstone.
Q. In your report you state you remained there two days longer than
you would otherwise have done, waiting for Mr. Bosler to bring in his
accounts.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that the time necessary for your investigation there was only
four days?
A. That is all, sir; that is, I had gone nearly as far as I could properly, without any aid, to get sworn affidavits or anything of that kind,and as I had plenty of business in Washington, I did not waut to use
more time there at the agency than was necessary.
Q. In this printed copy of your report there are divisions by headlines; for instance, here is one: "Indians cheated out of whole issues."
Is that a part of the report?
Q. Not at all; that is put in by whoever printed this report.  My
original report did not contain that at all.
Q. Then you did not make that charge in your report?
A. I stated the facts as I found them.  I furnished testimony on the
subject. 
f;53
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. You have recently, I believe, been writilig some letters published
in the newspapers in reference to this subject?
A. Yes, sir; I would just say here about that, that they are all from
records also; you can find them in the same papers.
Q. I was going to ask you how many of those letters there were and
where we might obtain them.
A. The Capital newspaper of this city contains some of them.
Q. Where are the others?
A. They are spread all over; I cannot tell you how many of them.
Q. llave you copies of them that you could furnish us?
A. I don't think I have; I don't think I have copies of all of them.
Q. You doii't remember the number you have written?
A. No, sir; I do not remember all I wrote at various times on the
subject.
13y Mr. llARRIs:
Q. What articles and letters have you published since the 20th of
July, or thereabouts-articles which you have prepared?
A. I have written those Capital letters over my own name.
Q. lIave you written other letters, since they have beeii published,
under any other name?
A. I have written other letterswritten. you write an article, I do not wish to say what I have
Q.                       that appeared in the New York papers?
A. I would rather you would not ask me on that suhject~what articles
I hav~ written.
Q. llave you written any articles over the si~
appeared in print?                       ~~ature of "Fidelis" that
[No answer.j
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Is there anything further which you desire to communicate to the
commission?
A. No, sir.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. ~Vho is at present the secretary of the Board of Indian Corn missioners?
A. I think Mr. Frank IT. Smith is secretary, and Mr. Whittlesy is
clerk.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. ITow long is it since you were clerk there?
A. Last June a year ago I resigned, to date the 30th of June, 1874.
Q. flow long had you been clerk there?
A. Three years.
The CHAIRMAN (to Professor Marsh): Professor Marsh, is there aiiy
inC~uiry you would like to make of Mr. Walker?
Professor MARSH. There is none. 
654
TESTIMONY OF DR. C. C. COX.
Di C. C. Cox, of ~~ashington, D. C., having responded to the request
for hiS ap~)earance, the chairman invited Professor ~1arsh to make such
iuqu~ries as he desired of Dr. Cox.
By Mr. MAR Sll
Question. ~Vhen were you at the Red Cloud agency, Doctor?
Answer. Last snmn0er, Professor; tlie summer of 1874.
Q.  llow long were you at the agency?
A.  Going oii to N\~hetstone, I think ~ve stopped two days and a half.
I think we were there over Sunday; I think we had service there; and
I believe that, in retun~ing, (1 was not with fl~e commission on the
return-trip, I stopped there alone,) I was there about the same time,
probably two days; at least two days; I think not more than that.
Q.  Did you see anything indicating mismanagement at the agency?
A.  I did not see the slightest evidence of mismanagement.  I did not
investigate any of the affairs of the agency.  There were some matters
left for the commission to look into which they attended to after I left.
I went about through the stockade and into tlie stores of the parties who
had goods to dispose of and distribute, I mingled with the Indians a
good deal, I stopped several hours at Yellow-Hair's camp on my way
from ~~hetstone to Red Cloud, and I saw nothing of the kind.  Of course
iuy attention was not directed to anything of the sort, but nothing came
under my observation that led me to infer any mismanagement.
Q.  Did you see any of the supplies at the agency?
A.  I saw at Yellow-llair's camp some bread, or rather short-cake, flat
cake, made, I suppose. of the usual flour, and ate of it.
Q.  Did you see any of the supplies?
A.  I did not examine the supplies; I was in the stores, and I saw the
general character of the supplies, but I did not inspect minutely any
particular article of supplies.
Q.  Did you notice the flour?
A.  I did iiot see the flour at the agencies at all.  There was some flour
shown to me after I got to Cheyenne, on the way back, by Colonel Long,
of the Army, who was, I l~elieve, at that time appointed to inspect the
flour.
Q.  N\~hat did you think of that flour?
A.  I am no judge of flour at all.  lie showed me several specimens,
some of which looked rather dark in color, not very white flour; but I
saw nothing else about it that would lead me to infer that the flour was
of an inferior quality except the color.  As I said before, I am no judge
of flour, and, of course, I could not pretend to form an intelligent opinion
on that point.
Q.  liad you any conversation with any Army officers, in speaking
about the flour or anything else, indicating that matters were not all
nght at the agency?
A.  No, sir; not to my knowledge~never.
Q.  And did you say that you should give the information on those
subjects to the Department when you came back?
A.  No, sir.
Q.  Did you give any information to the Department when you came
back~
A.  I received a note from the Assistant Secretary of the Interior,
stating that complaints had been made in regard to the flour, particu. 
655
L~~y and soine other things, aiid desiriiig to ki~ow if I knew anything
ahout *hem.  I beli~ve I have that letter in iny scrap.book.  ~~ithiu an
ho'~r, I ~ddressed a note to the Assistant Secretary of the Interior, to the
efiect sii~'pIy that I had seen nothing in iny observations at the agen&ies whic~' led ine to infer anything wrong about the supplies; that
some flour had been shown to ine in Cheyenne which was said to be impure, imperrect flour, but that I knew nothing at all about its real quality,
and had no nowledge of any frauds or improprieties, if any such cxisted.
Q.Did you s;~eak of the quality of this flour, ~articuIarly, in your
letter to the As~istai~t Secretary of the Interior?
A.I really au~ not sure.  I can get a copy of the letter from my office
across the street iii a few minutes if you would like to see it.
Professor MARSIl. I would like to see it. Those are all the questions
I wish to ask.
WITNESS. I would like, Mr. Chairrn~n, if it would he~proper, to state
some impressions I have had in regard to the Indian matter, if it is a
part of your investigaticn.
The CHAIRMAN. It wotild be proper, and we would be very glad to
hear any observations or impressions that will aid us in comiiigto a correct conclusion in relation to this Indian matter.
WITNESS. Well, sir, I had never visited the Indian couiitry before,
and of course all my impressions are fresh and unmodified by any previous circumstances or conditions.  I did not hear aii Indian-I mingled
with a good many of them-I did not hear a solitary Indian complain
particularly of the quality of the articles furnished. There was a good
deal of complaint, both in the council and outside, on all occasions, to
the general effect that the needs of the Indians had not been fully sup.
plied, and that the Great Father anti his officers had violated all their
promises and pledges to the Indians.  That was the burden of their
song from the time I entered the Territory until I left it.  My impression was that a little less indulgence and a little more authority would
be better for the Indian and the Govern'nent. A more determined set
of chronic grumblers and complainers I never saw.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.Their complaint was as to the quantity and not the quality?
A.I heard no complaint as to the quality at all. Their complaint
was, that the general needs of the tribes were not supplied, and that all
the treaties and all the promises that had ever beeii made by the Great
Father and his officers had been violated. They could not talk in the
council-could not make a five-minutes' speech-without running into
that rut.
By Mr. MARS~:
Q.Did you say nothing to Colonel Long condemnatt)ry of the flour
you saw at the warehouse there at Cheyenne?
A.Not at all, sir; I never said anything; I did not k'iow anything
about the flour; I may have observed that the flour lookt=d very dark,
no doubt I did, for the flour he showed me had a dark appe~trance.  lie
exhibited to me at the hotel samples of flour ftirnished wht~~h he considered improper and impure flour. Not being an expert, o~ course I
could not express an opinion as to the ments of the flour, except as to
the col~ r; and I did not.
Q.Y~~ur letter referred to the opinion of Colonel Loiig oil the subject, or 0 what you saw yourself? 
656
A. I think it did, Profcssor. I vould like to get that letter and bring
it right across to you.
[The witiiess procured and prod ~ced the letter, as follows:J
Tl!URsDAY, October S, 1~74.
~Iv DEAR SIR: I have just read with so~ie surprise the telegram to which your favor of
this date alludes.
During my sojourn at Whetstone and Red Cloud agencies, I heard nothing of tlie irregularities or frauds referred to. In the councils held, and the private conferences with the Indians, the usual complaints were made by them of inadequate provisions for their need, and
unfulfilled promises on the part of the Great Father and his officials, but no ~ttention was
paid to murmurs which are constitutional and chronic, and doubtless without foundation in
fact.  I did learn at Cheyenne that the flour fl~rnished by the contractor was generally of
very inferior quality, and had been condemned by Colonel Long, the military inspector, but
knew nothing whatever of any improprieties or frauds on the part of the agents.
My office is crowded with visitors just now, and I am obliged to be more hurried than I
desire. Durii~g my rio-es this morning, I will do myself tlie pleasure of calling upon you at
your office.
Always, respectfully and truly, yours,
CHRIS. C. COX.
Hon. Mr. COwEN,
Assistant Secretary hzterior.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. I would like to ask you about Yellow-Hair's short-cake, which you
tasted.  ~~hat kind of cake was it?
A. It was not exactly the kind of short-cake I should prefer to have
on my own table, and I su~~pose I should hardly have eaten it if it had
been shown to me in N\~ashington.  I found nothing objectionable in it
except that it was a little close, sodden-imperfectly made.  I don't
think the Indians understaiid the use of yeast or rising-powders; and
it was a little dark, but' it was sweet.  It tasted very well to me, because I was very hungry ai~d very tired, and I did not inspect it very
closely.  I went upon Saint Paul's maxim-to eat what was set before
me, and ask no questions.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. You saw nothing wrong with the nutritious properties of the
fi~~~ur~
A. Not at all.  I was in a very delicate state of health at the time,
and my stomach would have revolted against anything very injurious
in its quality.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. You have not stated' in what capacity you were out in the Indian
country.
A. I was there as a member of the special commission to treat with
the Indians in regard to two subjects: one the surrender of their hunting.grounds in Nebraska, and the other (which, I believe, is a stereotyped subject) the surrender of the unceded territory, though it has
~ever been broached, I believe, by any commission until the present
time.  There was nothing said by our commission oti that subject.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. I think you said that was your first visit to the Indian couiitry?
A. The first visit.  I had never seen an Itidian before except as he
hJd passed through the streets of ~Vashington. 
657
WASHINGTON, D. C.,
~~~d~~esday, Sei)tentber 15, 1S75.
Present: lion. THOMAS C. FLLTcIlLR, chairman; Hon. TIMOTHY
0. Howi;, llon. B. W. flARRLS, Hon. CriARLES J. FAULKNER, and Profe~sor GEORGE W. ATHERTON.
Professor MARSH was also present.
The CHAIRMAN. (To the Commissioner of Indian Affairs) Mr. Cornffl1~sioner, we iiivited you to meet with us this morning ill order that you
might make such statements with reterence to tlie charges contained in
the l)~liiphlet of Professor Marsh as you may see proper to make; and
we then propose to ask Dr. Bevier about su~~h matters as Professor
~larsh wishes to inquire of hiin.  ~~ may desire to recall yon for the
purpose of asking you some questions if we find that those we had
~lesigned asking are not covered by tl~e statement you will make to us
this morning.
Hon. E. P. Smith, Commissioner of Indian Affains, theii reid the fol.
lowing statement in reply to Professor Mar~h's charges:
STATEMENT OF HON. E. P. SMITH.
Sometime about the 20th of April last, Professor Marsh caine to my offl~e bringing pickages of coffee, sugar, tobacco, and flour, which he said
lie li~d brought from Red Cloud age[icy.  He explained that he was now
fiilfillitig a promise which he had made to Red Cloud. That while at the
Red Cloud agenQv, in October or November previous, he had found
difficulty in gettiiig permission of tie lidians to go past the agency, in
to their count~y in search of fossils; and as an inducement to Red
Cloiitl to procure this permission for hitii, he had offered to bring any
coLupltints which that chief should desire to make concerning his agent,
to the President; and that, in pursuaiice of this agreement between him
au~l Red Cloud, that Indian h~J made maiiy grievous charges against
his agent and his administration of affairs.  And bad also given him
these packages of snp~~lies as genuine sa~uples of the food which his
agelit was giving hi Li).  In answer to my inquiries, he said that he had
not iii any way tested these samples by comparison with supplies which
were then b~ing issued by the agent, and that he did not put great confl~lence in Red Cloud's stateineiit.  Mr. M~irsh also sl)oke of the confuSion which he witne~sed at the agency, of the agent's want of courage
arid cooliiess at the time of a threatened outbreak, and of his lack of
s~ stern iii issuing annuity-goods, clearly in(licating, as ~Ir. Marsh
tli~~iight, an ilicoinpetenQy on the part of the agent for his responsible
1)()SitiOIi, adiriittii~g at the same tiriie that the position was one involviii  responsibilit~ equal to that of the governorship of the State of Conii~~ticut. On thk~ l)()int we agree~l in our views.
He made no charges of fraudulent tntnsactions on the part of Agent
St~ille, excel,tili tlie narie ofRed Cloud, saying that Red Cloud claime~~
aii~l rel)eatt'dly (leclared that his agent w~is cheating him.
The interview, so far as I was concerned, was a pleasant one, and, as
I~i~~!ess~~r Marsh stated to nie, had beci brought about because some time
l)revious when giving him a letter' of credit t() Re~l Cloud and the officers
of tlie Burein iii l's      - 
658
SQJv& (~fl~tII~ lig ~1es~uving fly atteiitioii that iie~ded to be!()ri?eeted, to
1100 1~e;t 1.()tt ()f it f()r i~y iii for~ii;~tioii
TIie iiext IllorIlilig (~1i;~eeot0iit ot this iiiterview bet~veeii ~~rofessor
~Iii's1i`111(1 iiiy~elf ~iI)I)C'OU('(1 111`~ Ne~v N~or k l)iI)Ur, givilig aii ii~eorreet and
eiitii'ely iiiifair versloii  ~~Iii&'li`V's mode tlie text of v~ry se~ ere aiid unjust critie~siii of the lioterior Department, and es1~eeially of iny own otfiCill (`iCt~Ofl usiiog I~rofessor ~I'iisi~'s well-kiiowii ~~`LiiiC and position to give
ioree aiod c"ircul~'tion to the statement.  Iio all these atta~~ks of the press
gr~at emphasis was laid upon tioc quality of slipplies which, according to
~~~ed Cloud's samples liad l~een ftii-nished  tlte Itidians. The Indian's
samples and his stoly of liaviiig been wronged were rarely mentioned
CXCel)t iii connection with the name and character of tlie distinguished
proftssor, ~~ho h~~d voluiiteered to take them to the Presideiit in person,
<ind who, by so doing, became iii the minds of all who read the accounts
the en~lorscr of both the samples and the story, neither of which were true.
The newsl~aper version was so fitr from being true, aiid the criticism and
<~liar~es (bunded upon it so nijust that I was sure Professor Marsh would
he niortified by tlie f('il5C attitude in which he liad been placed toward
myself, and I coiofi~leiitly exl)ected as a inatterofeourtesy and honor that
lie (`it 010 CC would correct tioeiio, esliecially in view of the fact that all the
iiiforniation giveol to tioc ~)rC55 on this subject had come exclusively from
loinoself, (`I iid that he wa~ know ii to be in intiiioate relation with the paper
in ~~`liicli it apiocared.  ~Ir. ~Iarsh (lid pot make any such corrections. On
the coiitrai~y, lie allowed the continued misr~presentations, based upon
an ilicori-ect version of tlie matter, and especially based npon tlie saml)le~ lie liad brought, to receive a very wide circulation of tlie press
without lily denial from himself.  ~Vheu a man has wronged another
unili te iitioiia 11 y or otherwise, two courses are open to hiin: to make
rel)aiation, or to endeavor to justify his action.  Professor M'trsh has
~eeti fit to adopt the l~'itter course.
A few ~lays after Professor ~Iarsh was in~'ited before the Board of
Iii~lian Conimossioners, to whom he ga~e a much niore exteiided accouiit
of lois i~ed Cloud observatioios and inferences; upoii wh)'ch statemeiit the
board i nimediately took action by appointing a committee ot their own
nniiiber to investigate an~l report the facts.
- This committee, loot beiiig reidy to proceed at once to tlie investigation, the Secietary ot the Interior requested the chairman of the Board
of Jio~lian Commissioners to name snitable persons to form a conoinission
to take the whole matter into inquory, aiid report.  ~Iu~'li time was con
sunoed in tlie composition of this cominissioio, owiiig to the itiability of
persoiis invited to serve.
Anoong t hos~ ~ho thn~ declined ~~ete Iloii. II. A. Bullock, of ~Ias~acli to setts; (;. ~V. Lane, of tlie Board of Trade of New York; Seioator
Steveiisoii, of Kentucky; Seioator \Vashbnrn, of ~Iassachusetts; Proles~or Seely, of Amherst ~ollege; ai~d Senator ~Ion-ill, of Maine.
~Vhile this coinniission was being procured ~1r. ~I'ir5h was in N\'ash
oiogtoii tre(~ueiotly, and was present at a couiicil held with I~ed Cloud
an~l liis delegites for~the ~pecial purpose of~hearing the complaints~he
bad to ioiake - respectoig lois supplies and his agetit.  r1he op~oortunity
given  that cli oct and his baud to state their grievaiices was niost ample.
The record of this couiicil will show that 1?ed Clou(l's grievances, as pre-~ented iii person, were not sei'ions, and that no conil)laiiit was iioade by
ii iii' against his ag$iit niotil ditwa out from  hiiii by the iioquiry of Mr.
~lirsh, whether lie  was pe~Xcct1y satisfied with lijs agelit." At one of
tioc frequciot int~rviews held with ~Ir. Maish`ibont this time, I called 
659
his attention to the injustice which he had done Agent Saville in consentilig to be the bearer of Red Cloud's complaints witnout having informed himselt~ by personal inspection as to the character of the supplies at tlie a~ency whether the articles Red Cloud had given him were
actually samples of the sup~~lies delivered. Professor ~Iarsh replied that
I must recollect Red Clou&s position: that he was the acknowledged
head of that people, in a similar relation to the Sioux that President
Graiit holds to the people of the United States, and that it would have
hardly been in accordance with Red Cloud's notiozi of etiquette or
propriety for him, the Professor, to seem in any way to question his
word or fairness.
Relative to the allegatioi~s of inferior supplies fnrnished Red Cloud
agency, I have only to say that the purchases were made on contracts
entered into in pursuance of bids offered, and publicly read in New
York on the second day of July, 1874. Tlie sugar was iurni~hed by E.
C. Knight & ()`O.~ of Philadeli)hia; the coffee by 13. G. Ariiol~l & Co., of
New York; the tobacco by Doliati, Carroll & Co., of New York; the
flour by J. II. Martin, of Denver, Colorado.  The award of these
contracts to these parties was made in accordance with the advice of
the board of Indian commissioners, who had before them all the bids, and
upon the judgment of the inspector of the samples as to which offered
tlie best value, aiid therefore cons~ituted tlie best bids in each case for
the Government to accept.
The inspector for flour was E. R. Livermore, of the ~lour Exchange of
New York City, who was recommended by the presidetit of tlie exchange.
His ability and integrity will not be questioned by flour-dealers in New
York. Tite tobacco-contract was entered into after three inspections,
resulting in the award being given to the parties to who in the second
inspector, ~V. A. Robinson, had made it; the award of coftee was
given on the inspection and re~ommendation of Thomas J. Barr; the
sugar, on the inspection and recommendation of C. B. Kneval; the
blankets were purchased on the inspection and judgment of C. B. ~Yilcox, all of New York City.
In making their award upon the bids and samples, these~inspectors, I
fully believe, were governed entirely by their own judgment in the case,
and in each case their judgment was accepted aiid acted upon.  N\rhen
the contractors came to deliver the coffee, sugar, tobacco, atid blaiikets,
the question whether the articies were according to contract as to quailtity atid quality was left entirely to the decision of these inspectors.
They inspected the goods and saw them ship~~ed, and there can be no
reasonable doubt that the articles actually l)urchased were delivered to
the transportation companies iii New York for shipmeiit to this agency.
These supplies are traced distinctly through Omaha an~l Clteyeiii~e, and
tlie agents receipt is returned for them.  Saui~~les of thcse supplies
have been furnished the commission, with the statements of the several
3nsl)ectors above named. These snp~}lie~ are in Iiiy judgmeiit fully equal
in gnide to those iii use by the great majority ot. li boring l)eoi)le iii this
country, aiid are of a quality which ought to be satisfactory to the Iiidians. I believe the interests of true ecoiioiiiy would hot allow tlie I)urchase of a i)etter grade ot articles.
Tlie samiile of flour on which tlie contract was let, l)y the iCivice of
~Ir. Liveritiore, was sent to the flour iiislect-~r tbr I~e~l cl~~ii~l ~geiicv, at
(Slieyeniie, ~Iaj. A. K. Long, of the U. S. A-iiiy.  \~heii tlie fl~~ur cinie
to be delivere~l, I fouiid fr~}m the coIiiI)lailit of the coiitri~'t()i tli;tt ~I~j.
Loiig 5 iiisl)ection was close atid rigid. ~Vit.l this I was pleased, and so
iiif~~rined hita by telegra~~li. 
660
The bl;inkets were purchased of John Dobson, of Philadelphia.  They
were the wcll-known standard ~Iackinaw blanket, of superior quality,
heavy, warm, and serviceable; a much better blanket than the soldiers
of the Army use, and a far better blanket, both for wear and bed-covering, than the great majority of the American people are able to have for
themselves or their families.  They were all stamped indelibly U. S. I. D.,
so that there is no room even for a suspicion that the blaiikets bearing
this stamp, which ~Ir. ~Iarsh saw upon the Indians', were not the identical heavy, soft, warm ~1ackinaw blankets purchased lbr them in Philadelphia.  Red Cloud asked Professor ~Iarsli to tell his Great Father
that the blankets sent to liim were not fit for horse-blankets; Professor ~Iarsh ~lelivered the message to the President, and did not
inforn~ hi?n that it?CaS?tot tri~e.  Indian blankets ~vere required to
be marked, for tlie first time under that year's contract, au~l through
the inexperieuce of the inanuflicturer in marking, a few of the blue
blankets were iiijured by the stain ping proce~s  some of them to the extent of destroying the fabnc, and thus making a bole in the blanket the
size of the four letters.  This is not true of aiiy except tlie blue blaiikets,
which were only one-eighth of the whole quaiitity furnished to that
agency, and it is true only of a portion of this oiie.eiglitli.  llow great
that portion is, I have not the information to state, but ~ do not believe
it to have been large.
The above facts will show, I confl~ently believe, that the office took
all reasonable and necessary means to protect the Governiueiit from imI)osition and fraud, an~l to secure the delivery of the proper articles for
the use of the Indians.
At one of the interviews with ~Ir. ~Iarsh he informed iiie that the
Secretary of the Interior hadrequeste~l him to make, for his use, a written
statement of what lie had seen aiid believed to be wrong at`ted
Cloud agency.  I urged him to do so.  lle replied that he told the
Secretary that if he desired such a statement, he should make the
request to him in writing, which the Secretary had not done, and he
would consider the matter whether he would furnish the statement or not.
General Eaton, Commissioner of Education, was present at the interview
and united with me in urgilig upon Professor ~Iarsh to make such statement, iu order that the Departiueiit niight have the facts for a thorough
investigation into all thecoinplaiuts alleged.  ~Ve were not able to obtain
the consent of Protessor Marsh to this request, yet he did not positively
refuse it.  I assured him over and~over again that we were anxious to
know what was the true state of things, aii (I desired  any iii formation lie
could give us on the subject, and explained that it ought to be in
writing, with reference to such sources of evideiice as lie could give us.
~Ir. ~~Iarsh declined to furnish a written statemeiit of frauds of which
lie had bec~~ine a"-are, to iny self.  Iii answer to my request for such a
staten~eiit, he replied he would give it to t}ie coinmi~sion   appointed~ to
investigate the matt~r.  Pendiiig the appointment of that commis~ion,
he sent the statement which I had requested to the President, publishing it at the same time iii the newspapers.  I am not a~are of an~
reason assigned by him for snc{i publication-a course unusual and in
no wa~ assisting eithei tlie Piesideiit, Det)artment, or the ~ommis~ion in
scarching for tlie alleged frau~ls.
~1r. ~Iarsh assigils as his reisolis for decliiiiiig to give the statement
to tlie Secretary of the Iii~erior or to inyseif, that he hatl reason to
suspect the Departmeiit "as inteitsted in co~ering up rather than in 
661
4Iiscovering frauds, and that he had lost confidence in my integrity of
purpose.  To sustain this gra~e charge, which Mr. ~farsh has taken the
responsibility to scatter through the press and in his own publications
copiously distributed through the mail, to all parts of this con n try; and
even in Europe, no specific allegations are m~de.  There are, however,
three charges of fraud and wrong which he en(Jiea~~ors to fasten upon the
Indian Office.
First, a d~position to shield contractors by false statc~ne~tts.  For proof of
this Mr. Marsh offers two dispatches, taken from tite newspapers, as my
statements.  The first is as follows:
C~mmissioner Smith, of the Indian Bitrean. says, in regard to the letter of General
Bradley, published yesterday, that the cattle spoken of belong to the contractor; that they
were sick. some of them with broken limbs, and that they were not issued 0 the Indians
and that there was no intention of issuing then~, simply becanse they were in such a poor'
and sickly condition.  It asserts that Red Dog's statement was incorrect. and that Red
Cloud intormed him this mornin  that Red Dog lied when he told the story to General
Bradley and Professor Mansh.`fhe Commissioner also states that General Bradley could
have satished himself of this fact by a slight inquiry of tije herdsmeu or contractor, if he
had desired to do so.
The second press dispatch on which I a'n convicted of fals~hooJ and
fraudulent intent is this:
It is stated at the Indian Bureau, with reference to the complaints concerning supplies furnished to the Indians at the Red Cloud agency, that all the flour sent there was inspected
at Cheyenne, by Major Long, commissary of subsistence of the United States Army, and
passed by him as equal to the accepted sami)les.  It is therefore claimed that the samples of
inferior flour brought here by Prof. Marsh, at the request of Red Cloitd, were of some old
issue, or, like the specimens of sugar and tobacco, have been damaged by exposure to the
weather while in the Indians' possession.
In the first quotation from newspapers given above Mr. Marsh attempts to prove that I am fi~lse by Red Cloud's statement that he (Red
Cloud) never said to me what is above aliedged; and, secondly, by the
statements of the half-breeds and squaw-men, that they did not interpret any such thing for Reti Cloud, and therefore he could not have
said it.  If Mr. Marsh had made a slight inquiry respecting the dispatcb, he could have saved himself the trouble of calling upon his Dakota' witnesses. I never exchange~1 a word with Red Cloud on the subject.  The re!)orter misunderstood me when he says that I told hirn that
Red Clottd informed me.  I said to the reporter that I had been informed
that Red Cloud had so stated; and this fact entirely disposes of the
"four falsehoods" and of the question of veracity raised by Professor
~arsh between Red Cloud and myself.
Of the second dispatch, which Mr. Marsh thitiks a sufficient ground
to accuse me of fraud, I never had any knowledge whatever, until I saw
it in his statement.  The information purports to have been procured
from the Indian Office on the 3d day of May.  At that time I was not
within two hundred miles of the Office, anti had i)0t been for a week
previous, nor had I c0tnmunicated with`~~y one at tlte Office on the
s'~bject.
The sec(~nd charge of 3fr. ~1arsh implicati~~g?~~yself is that I had
already been made ackua in ted with the  crongs at J~d Cloud age)~cy,
and had taken no measures to prevent Otent.  Thi.~ I deti~-, arid assert,
on the colitrary, that all previou.~ reports of iiregulariti~s or wrotigs
s;iid to exist at that agency, and all statenieiits re.~l)ectiIig tite integrity
of the administration of Red Cloud affairs, have received tiltiely, full,
and I)rolier colisitleration by tlte Indian Oflice 4arii~g iny atltiiiiiistration.
The first seriout: complaints made agaiiist agelit S;tville reaclicd the 
662
office in connection with the visit of Samuel Walker to the agency.
The complaints were i~mediately made the subject of investigatioll
by order of the Secretary of the Interior.
Bishop Bare, Rev. S. D. Hinman, inspector Bevier, and Hon. F. II.
Smith, member of the B~~ard of Indian Commissioliers, were sent at once
to inquire into the allegeJ wrongs. They made extended investigations.
Bishop Hare and Mr. Hinman, as officers of the Episcopal church, had a
pecnliar interest in finding the truth.  The report of this commissioii
completely exonorated the agent from all complicity with frauds, and
commended him for his satisiactory administration, in view of the many
difficulties aiid embarrassments under which it was carried oli.
On this report I acted, and gave the agent my confidence and hearty
co-operation, notwithstanding the report of Samuel Walker, which
Bishop Hare characterizes as contemptible.  If I had been capable of
doing otherwise I should have despised myself. J. D. Bevier, United
States Ind~an Inspector visited this agency again the following Septem
ber.  His report of that iiispection did not in any way reverse or recall
the previous report which he had made respecting the findings of Samuel
Walker.  It related principally to subsequent transactions of the agent
which he pronounced wrong and indicative of fraud. Inquiry showed, as I
though t,tliat the inspector was mistaken in some quite important facts upon
which he had based his statements, and agent Saville's explanation of his
transactions which were the most seriously questioned, supported by testimony of other parties, seemed to me to be reasonable.  I was (.Llso
aware that just about this time and since his former report commending
the agent, Mr. Bevier had had a personal grievance against agent Sa- -
ville upon a matter not at all connected with his duties as inspector, atid
that it had led to qnite unpleasant feelings towards the agelIt. This I
supposed might account to some extent for tlie severe report which hc
now made.  In frequent subsequent personal interviews on matters relating to his inspection tour, Mr. Bevier did not in aiiy way of which I
liave any recollection, allude to the fact that he had changed his estimate of Saville. For these reasons tlie second report of the inspector
while it gave me uneasiness and apprehension did not operate to destroy
the confidence in the agent which his previous report and that of the
other niembers of Bisho1) Hare's commission had iiispired.
The third  instance of 4ra?~d, or eon?iivance`~ci$h fraud, ~chich ~fr.
~fai~sh charges is in con~iection W'?Ut the transpork~tton service re~tdered by
I?. J. ~I~~Cann, n~ider eont~-aet ~-ith the Indian li~trean.  ~Ir. ~Iarsh
charges that by over-estimatii)g the distance, tlie Government has
been ~lefrauded, with the knowledge of the Indian Office, to the aniount
of ~15,[)()().  The facts are that the Government has nOt been, and C'i~
not be, defriuded one dollar on this transportation service  but by the
care and caution of the Office, the Government is I)roteeted, and has
been, from all fraud aiid loss, whatever may be the aettitil distance betweeti l~ed Cloud and Cheyenne.
Tiie acts relative to this iiiatter are these: ~IeCaun aiid others bid
for tlie transportation to the Red Clou~l agency over a route which
bad been establi~hed at so much per pound per hundred miles. The
distance had beeii already fixed in previous coiitraets, and it would
naturally be supposed that bids of all parties would be based upon
the distance recognized by the Department and by freighters at the
-time of the bid~ling. \Vhen the question arose as to tiie actual distance,
and the transportation accounts were held up, pending the decision
McCann addressed the following letter to the Secretary of the Interior: 
663
WAstIINGToN, D. C., December 3, 1S73.
SIR:I have the honor to propose in the matter of difference as to the distance from
Cheyenne to the Red Clond Indian agency, that my accounts be allowed in accordance
with the terms of the contract as to price and distance during the winter months, and that
a sum sufficient to cover the cost of transportation for any distance less than that stipulated
in the contract, which may be found to exist, may he withheld during the months of April,
May, and June, 1~4, till the question shall he determined.
The object in making this propositIon is to secure the means for the prosecution of the
work during the winter, while transportation is scarce and labor high. I respectfully inclose
Iterewith a telegram received this day from the shipping-agent at Cheyenne, showing the
demand for transportation and the need of funds.
Very respectfully your obedient servant,
D.J. McCANN.
To the honorable SECRETARY OF TllE INT~RtoR.
McCann's transportation service in May of  1874 amounted  to
.~6,3~3.66. llis service in June amountetl to $8,905,31. Amoui~t withheld
for the two months, *14,32S.97. This SLifli was not paid to McCann Ut)til
after he liad entered into contract and given bonds in the su[n of $40,000,
for its fulfillment, for transl)ortation service in 1875.
There was no time in that year when the (;overninent was tiot fully
protected by this contract, and service retidered under it, agaittst any
loss that might be found to have occurred by over-estimated distance.
At the ~nd of the year 1874'75, the office was indebted to McCann
on account of transportation for May and June, *14,568.12.  This was
wititheld until the 5th of August last, and uiitil after ~[cCann had
entered into contracts involviiig $10(),000 expendiLure, under bonds in
the penal sum of $51,000.  Thus it wikl be seen that there has never been
an hour from the time the question of distance was raised when the
Government has not been able to c~mpel McC~nn to make full and fair
settlements on the actual distance between Cheyenne anti [~e~ Cloud
a~endes.  At this time MeCa~iti is under contract to render service
whidi will amonnt, at a low estimate, to ~95 0)0, a considerable portion
of which service has already been reiidered and is yet unpaid.
Office correspondence, whidi lias been subtuitted to you, shows that
the Indian Office took steps to procure a measurement of tiie distance,
and that the route has been measured twice and the distance frund to
be 226 miles instead of 212 miles, the distance claittied by McCann.
This result`lot being satisfactory to myself or to Agent Saville, I asked,
under ~late of November 20, 1874, that tlie Secretary of NVar be requested to measure it by ait officer of the Aritty.  In aecordaiice with
this request an attempt to moke tlie measurement w-is in;ide by Second
Lieutenant I. II. ~Vititer, oti the:~`1~t doy of I)eceinber, 1874, wliieh was
unsuccessful on account of a severe storm.  Stibsequetit to that time
and (luritig the spring and early summer mouths, it has not been practicable to measure tlie distaiice oti aecoiiiit of the hioli water itt the
Plitte, which preveiited the ~)assi!ig of the river by the surveyiiig expedition at the point where the tnitis~)ortation-roiite crosses.  A request
has recently been made of tlie ~~~ai i)ei)artttieiit to eotiil)lete this ineasuremetit at an early (lay.  ~~~lien it is doiie ~ic-Caiiii's ae~ounts will be
atijusted on the basis agreed llj)O1I.
`In conclusion of this portioit ot' niy statetiietit, I desire to add that
Professor ~Iarsli is entirely wrolig w`lieu lie iiill}utes to me aiiy iiii'vorthy
motives f&ir tiie part which I have taken itt relatioii t() his c'()iijl)l;iints
resl)eetil) g Itid ian affairs.  ~s I have state~l, otir first iiitei'vic~v was to
itte in to`v'iy ait nopleasatit one. aiid 1 was itot, at tlie tiiiie, a~v;ti'e that -
I 111(1 iti;ide any unf-tvorable ilnI)rcssi()ti 111)1)11 liiiiiself.  I tlitl ~`t~iiti'overt
lii clii tit, (`15 t~ie rel)resentative ot' 1~ctI Cloii~l. that tli('it l!t(l~('i1t \v'ts bein;tljus'tl.  IIis stateinctits ait~l e()ittl)l'tiIits " crc St much;il'tt'r tlie old 
(364
stereotyped forni, with ~vhich I h(~d bee()lflt ftlflili'~r, (~~d ~ hich every
flew Ill`in SCCIl0s to l~arn by he'~rt the flr~t dty oiit of (WliQvei~iie, that I
did 1)Ot attach n~~ich value to tlieni, an~I it i~ iiot ui~likely that I ~l0owed
the feelii~~s which would be iiatur;ii when I tlio~ight I~rofessor Thfarsli
bad volunfeereti to be the bearer of co;iil)];iiiits ~hicli were not well
founded, aiid when I n~ore than half susi)cctcd that the Indi'in had
gotten the better of the Professor.
In a subsequent iliterview, after public`ittelitioli liad beeii widely
c'~led to his charges, ~Ir. ~1nrsh told ine that lie caiiie at that first interview simply to fulfill liis part of a bargain with I)~cd Cloud  tli;it lie was
not a l)hilanthropi~t nor a refi~rmer; that that was iiot liis Iiiic of business; that lie was fully occul)ied iii scientific l)ursuits, which left him no
time or inclination to meddle with the Iiidiaii questioi), though he did
not believe in the present Iiidian policy; but that haviiig been~crowded
into this question he must go through.  His rel)utation for good seiise
was at stake, and he would show that he was right.
The fact that ~Ir. ~Iarsli, at no greater distance than New llaven,
kept these dreadful tales of wrong and suffering, iiitrusted to him [~y
the Sioux chief for safe (~OnvQYance to his Great Father, during all the
biting cold of an unusually severe winter, from November to the last of
April, without in any way eiideavodiig to call the atteiition of those who
be must have supposed could right these wrongs, tends to show that he
did not himself attach very much import~nce to disclosui'es made at ~ed
Cloud, for it should be kept in mind in this connec~ion that, according to his
own statement, Professor ~Iarsh, up to this inter~'iew in AI)ril, had entire
confidence in myself as a true, determined fi-iend of the Iiidians; and
yet, during thos~ six months, when the suffering from cold and hunger
at the Red Cloud agency was greatly intensified, he did not so much as
communicate with me by letter on this subiect, nor in any way (lid he
attend to i~ed Cloud's message until other business connected with his
profession brought him to Washington in April, when, as he told me, he
"in~identafly"' proceeded to fulfill his pledge to that Indian.
I  am not aware of any expressioli, by word or otherwise, on niy part,
from which Professor ~Iarsh was entitled to infrr that I desired to pre.
vent publicity or exposure of fraud iii the Indian service.  I did call his
attention frequently, and, in what he may have regarded as severe lan.
guage, to the fact that he was allowing the press, hostile to the Indian
Bureau and to the Administration, to use his name in connection with
statements, which were not true, and especially to parade the samples
which he had taken from Red Cloud's hands as evidence of great fraud
and corruption at that agency and in the Indian Ofliec, when he had iiot
at any time tested the fairness of those saml)les, though he had ample
opportuility so to do while at the agency.  I charged lii in with want of
courteous and honorable treatment to me and the I)epartiuent ii) allow
ing such l)ublic statements on his authority; without what I coiisidered
the sligh~est proof having been offered to me or any one else to sustain
them, and wlieii he himself (lid iiot cl~'iiin to knoW from  l)ersonal observatioii that the statements made iii connection with liis name, and his
visit to Red Cloud and his bringing the saiiiples to the Indian Office
were true.
Iiiniaking u p their fiii diiigs upon Professor ~Iar~li s charges I ask
the Coiiiii~issioii to weigh`veil tlie suspicioii`111(1 ~li~tt'ust which they
have cast upon the Del)artinent of tlie Iiiterior, tlie shock and
hori'{~r w liich they have giv cii to tlie iiiinds of iii'jiiy of the best
citizeiis of the coulitry, an! the destructive bl()'v which they have
struck at public confidence in the l)o~sibilit.~ of Indian ci~ ilization or 
665
honest government. Alay I not also claim the personal right to ask your
consideration of my own ~ase, in relation to his statements. I have had
but one desire or ambition as Coin missioner of Indian Affairs, and that
is to do something to lift 275,000 people out of a barbarous and semi-bar
l~arous condition into Christian civilization and American citizenship.
It was for this purpose alone, at a sacrifice of personal conifort and iii dination, that I accepted and have consented to try to fill tlie very diflicult,
embarrassing, often discouraging, and always thankless office of Commissioner of Indian Affairs.  I know that I despise wrong and n0eaiiness,
~nd that iii niy estimation there is nothing meaner than to defraud an
ignoralit, heli)less barbariaii; and that no iuducement could be offered
to make me desire to shield from exposure and punishment any man
guilty of such a crime.  Up to the present time I have ei~joyed the reputation atuong a large circle of acquaintaiices of beiiig aii honest man;
that reputation is all that I have which is of aiiy value to inc.  Professor
~iai'slt has, iii fact, though probably without intention, done all that a
mait in his high position could do to destroy my name and take from me
that which I prize above all earthly things, the good opinion of good
meii.  lle has done this by sweepiiig assertions, whidi have beeti made
without any proper inquiry as to the facts, and which by free expenditure of moliQy and use of the ~)ress have been scattered over the wide
wodd.
I ask you to find the facts in this case, nothing more. If they condemn
me, if they throw a shadow of suspicion upon me, by all means declare
it, and give the declaration full emphasis. If on the other -hand the
author of these charges is mistaken and has made the venture of this -
assault without proper inquiry, then that fact requires to be so stated
that the wide, spread suspicion atid distrust which have been created
by the action of Professor iMarsh, respecting the bonest, hearty, effective,
and hopeful effort for the elevation of the Indians, which the President
and his officers and agents, with the cordial co-operation of the religious
people of the country, are now making, may be remedied as far as possible.
Frequent reference has been made to the fact that tite Secretary of
the lnterior in some cases overruled the action of the old Board of
Indian commissioners where that Board had disapproved vouchers, and
that such overruling was "illegal,"" irregular," or "fraudulent."
Upon this point I invite your attention to the following provision of
law defining the powers of the board and of the Secretary in regard to
voachers for Indian supplies, (Stat. at Large, vol. 16, p. 568:)
That hereafter no payments shall be made by any officer of the United States to contractors for goods or supplies of any sort furnished to the Indians, or for the transportation
thereon, or for any buildings or machinery erected or placed on their reservations, under or
by virtue of any contract entered into with the Interior Department, or any branch thereof,
on the receipts or certificates of the Indian agents or superintendents for such supplies,
goods, transportation, buildings, or machinery, beyond 5t1 per cent. of the amount due until
the accounts and vouchers shall have been suhmitted to the executive committee of the board
of commissioners appointed by the President of the United States, and organized under the
provisions of the fourth section of the act of April tenth, eighteen hundred and sixty-nine,
and tlie third section of the act approved April [July] fifteenth, eighteen hundred aiid seventy,
for examination, revisal, and approval  and it shall he the duty of said board of commissioners, without unnecessary delay, to forward said ac~ouiits and vouchers so suhmitted to
them to the Secretary of the Interior, with tlie reasons for their appi-oval or disapproval of
tlie same, in whole or in part, attached thereto  and said Secretitty shall have power to suslain, set aside, or modi?y tlie action of said hoard, atid cause ~iayiiie'~t to he iiiade or ~vithheld as he may determine.
Ilere is ait express l)r~visioit of lt'v fi~r stich tctioit by tlie Secretary
iii liis discretioii. It c<'titnot ther~forc be illugil, irreguiar, or fraudulent. 
666
Dr. Natban Bishop, a member of the exectitive committee of that board
which passed upon the Indian accontits, gives, in his testimony before
the stat~ding Committee of Indian Affairs, llouse of I?ei)resentatives, of
the 43d Congress, his views of this power and duty of the Secretary
of tlie Interior over vouchers, after they liad passed the inspection of
the board, which is officially reported as follows:
By Mr. MAttR1~:
Q. In all this matter do you treat or speak of a9ythitig a~ irregular which is not in violation of law ~
A I don't think I should.
Q. ~Vould you say that anything was irregular or i~np rop~r wlii~li it ~~` in tlie power of
the Indian Departuient to do without your consent t
A. I should not.
Q. Are you a lawyer?
A. No, sir; not practically.  I ou~ read law.
Q. In reference to what you have already said as te your regarding some pi-oceedings as
irregular, is it not a familiar fact that the Interior Department or the Secretary of the Interior, as a matter of law and practice, has the authority arid the right to overrule the decision
of your hoard
A. Certainly  and if I had been permitted in tlie be~inuing to state what the Secretary
of the Interior told me, it wo,~ld have throw.~ % good deal of light on a good deal of the
ground which you have gone over.
By Mr. MCNULTA:
Q. ~Vhat did the Secretary of tlie Interior say to you on this suhject of examining and
acting on the accounts?
A. The Secretary of the Interior. at my request, understood, and I told him distinctly,
that I should act iii accordance with the law as I understood it, and that the discretionary
power should be all left to him, as the law placed it in his hands.  I told him that if an account was irregular, even though there was no indication of fraud, I should pronounce it irregular, and send it to him to act upon, in order that the exercise of the discretionary power
`night he hy the party to whom that power was given by law; and I may add here that the
Secretary of the Interior requested ine to state this if I had an opportunity~to state that I
had exercised no discretion in dealing with the accounts, but had simply adhered to the law
as I received it from good authority; and I have never exercised discretionary power in any
case, hut have left it with the Secretary, where the law places it.
Q. You tinderstand, then, that the Secretary has merely exercised that discretion which is
placed in him by law in overruling your judgment in those matters?
A. Yes, sir  he had a right to do it, and take the responsibility.
Q. Do you know of`t~v wrong act or purpose of his in doing so-anything outside of the
legitimate exercise of tha( discretionary power?
A. I do not. because I have never taken pains to inform myself.
Q. Then, as tar as you know, the Secretary has just done what he had a right by law to
do?
A. I have never had reason to suppose that he has done anything that lie law does not
authorize him to do.  Of course he takes the responsibility of his own acts.
It will be s~en by this testimony that the board, fully recognizing flie
legal antliority of the Secretary to overrule their decisions, adopted tlie
POliQY to reject an account whenever it was irregular, eveti though
there "`as no indication of fraud, leaving it to the Secret'try to approve
or disapprove, as he was fully empowered to (10 by law.  The disap~r0v'tl of' an account by flie l~oard, therefore, does not, as Dr. Bishop
say~, indicate that it was fi'~uduleut.
~I~tiiy of the rejectiotis of vouchers were based upon iliforination in
their posse~sioti of which the Department had tio knowle~lge.  For exami)le, Stilitiel ~V'tlket.'s report was made December (;, 1~73.  The
board were actiti~ upoti tlie statements in said report, while the Depart.
mei~t 1t~d 110 kitowledge of it, not being furnished with a copy of it
uiitil the 11th of Fet'ruary followitig.  Subse~~neutly, bet-ore tite Cornll~ittee on Indian ~fftirs of. the 4:3d Coi~gress ~Ies~rs. Bisho1) aii~I Dodge
of flie board admitted that they had been ~leceivetl by ~Valker's report
as to the tittinber of India~is, atid adopted the ficts cotit;tinel iii Bishop 
667
Hare's report upon the sllbject.  You are r~pectfully referred to the
testimony of Messrs. Bishop and Dodge upon this point in the report of
the congressional committe, a copy of which has been furnished you.
The reasons assigned by this board for rejecting vouchers are frequently
quite general.  For instance, on page 12, report of 1873, they say, "affidavits in our possession go to show," &c., without furnishing the affi
davits to the Department; "from investigation we are satisfied," &c.,
without giving any detail of the investigation; "the best information
goes to show,' &c., without stating what that information is.  Page 13,
they say "subsequent examination showed,~ &c., without ~tating what
the exa[nination had been.  These expressions all referred to the investigation made by the board, the results of which were not communicatedto the Department at the time the Secretary was called to act upon
the vouchers to which the investigation referred.
Testimony has been taken ielative to the substitution of corn for flour,
and pork for bacon, at some of the Sioux agencies.  This subject was
thoroughly investigated by the standing Committee on Indiaii Affairs of
the 43d Congress, and full statements will be found in their report above
referred to.  Corn was substituted for a portion of the flour upon the
suggestion of i~In Cree, then secretary of the Board of Indian ()ommissioners,in a letter wntten by him from the Indian con!) try, where he was
traveling in company with i~r. Brunot, the chairinaii of the commission.
~Ir. Cree stated that so great was the desire of the Indians for corii that
they would exchange a sack of flour coritai~ing a hundred pounds for a
peck of corn.  I then thought, and still think, the substitution was a
proper one, and have reason to believe that it has been useful and satisfactory to the Indians.  The corn cost from 25 to 35 per cent. less per
pound, and to the extent of the exchange was fully equal in value,
pound for pound.
The substitution of I)ork for bacon was made on my own judgment, as a
measure of economy.  There is much less loss by shriiikuge in pork
than in bacon; it keeps cleaner arid reaches th e agencies iii every respectin better condition for colisumption than bacon.  The pork costs
less than the bacon and is worth more.
In considering the price paid for this corn it must be remembered that
the transaction was a substitution and not a purchase.  It is not improbable that by advertising, somewhat lower rates niiglit have been
obtained; but the flour contractor claimed that his existing contract
should not be ignored, upon which at the time of the substitutioii there
was a margin of profit to the contractor.  To this!nar~~iti of l)roflt
the contractor was irt justice entitled. In making tlie substitution, therefore, the market price of flour ~`LS taken into consi~leratioii, aii~l tlie
exchange agreed npoii allow~d the same margin on corii tliut was then
being realized on flour.
Still another class of claims rejected by the old board, aiid which the
Secretary allowed, were those where beef had beeii received in excess of
the one twenty-fourth part of the entire amouiit which  tlie coiitract
called for in aiiv singlesemi~monthly delivery. \Vheii it was shown to tlie
satisfaction of the Secretary that the beet~ had actually l~ueii delivered
and consumed by the Indians, he waive~l the technical objectioii of tlie
boanl and approved the vouchers.  In all this class of cliinis there was
110 charge or evidence of fraud.  In ~~iiie iiistaiices this exce~s ()f the
oiie twen~v-fourth part was occasioiied by the demaiid of tlie iii~Iiuns
which tlie agent liad not tile )ower to resist. In others it occurred from
the ageilt receivilig more catt~e at a delivery thiii`va~ icquired for imniediate consumption iii order to aviil liiniself of the ilicrease it weight 
C)CJ8
by ft~e{iii~g tlie cattle 01) prairie-gras~  L)y this course, withotit additional
C()~t fi~r liculiug, a large 11ut))ber of cows were saved from slanghte~
~`il)d givtii to the Indiajis for iise  It was claimed by n~e that if the
CO1Itraet~~r was willing to niake tlie advaiice (lelivery aiid it was for the
beilefit`the Ii~diaiis and tlie Goveri~iuejit, there could be 1)0 objection
Certainly there was no flaud.
I tully believe that a candi~1 cxalliillatioii iii to this niatter will show that
a very l'i~ge portion of the voucheis which were su~l)e11~le~I, or which, for
any leasol), failed to receive the al)l)roval of the Board of Indian Cornll)155i0ners, were of this cla~s, an~l that the ti'aiisactioiis iiivolved in the
outlay which they rel)resented were elitirely lioiionible ai~d for the beneh't ot' tl)e 1i~dians an~l tlie ~~`ove1'1iuieiit.
I~rofrssor ~IARsll. ~[r. Chairmati, I reque~t a co~~y of the statement
of the Coni~ui~sioijer, a~)d an opl)ortunity to reply to soii~e l)ortions of it.
The (?llAIl'MAN. Of course you will have a co~)y of it when it is printed.
I~rofes~or ~fARSll. I should like to have ~Ir. Alvoul's statemeijt go on
recor~l, if it is here- I ~ubii~it that as evidence.
TESTIMONY OF JION. E. P. SMITli.
By Mr. FAULKNEP~:
Question. I observe that tlie treaty of 186S, made with the Sioux Nation, prescribes in one of its sections that a military officer shall inspect
the supplies at the agency before they are issued.  llas that provision
of the treaty of 1868 ever been carried into execution by our Governrneiit; and, if not, why has it not been complied with?
Answer. I ain riot aware that i~ has been.  I didii't know myself that
that was a treaty obligation.
Q.  Yes, sir; it is a positive requirement in that treaty that they shall
detail a military officer at each of the agencies to inspect the goods before they are issued, and to be present at their issue.
A.  My attention has never been called to it, and I am not informed
that the Office has ever acted upon it.  It would not be strange that a
treaty provision which had not received the attention of the Bureau at
the time the treaty went into operation, and had passed unnoticed for
five years of office routine under previous Commissioners, should not
come to my attention.
Q.  Is there any necessity at all for these men who are called freight-con.
tractors between the eastern cities where the goods are i)urchased and
points of delivery like Omaha, Cheyenne, and other points ~  ~Vill not
the ordinary facilities afforded by the rail~oads as coniinon carriers secure to the Government the safe delivery of goods from commercial
points in the East to commercial point5 along the railroad in tlie ~Yest,
without the interveiition of freight-contractors?
A.  Yes, sir; I suppose to some of the points it may be done but with
greater incouveiiience to the Office and greater risk to tiie goods; while
at sonie of the I)0i11t5 it could not be done at all without sending an
agent along to reship at those points,~because of a requirement by law
that the Goveriii~ent shall 1)0t l)ay freight over certain subsi~lized roads.
~Yhen the freight gets to that road it stops until soniebody comes there
and gives a Government reqnisitioii aiid sends it forward.
Q.  Still, could liot y~u make aii arrangement with your agen tat
Omaha, for example, by which it might be made his duty to see to the
inimediate traiisportatioii from that poiiit to Cheyeiine? 
b
669
A.That I did last year, from there, but it occasioned a great deal of
difficulty and a great deal of delay in the transshipment.  Then
another reason ~gainst that system is that I get through rates from the
contractor at much less freight-charges than I can get local rates.
Q.Then wotild you regard it as a measure of economy to have a
freight-contractor instead of resorting to the ordinary mode that a merchant, for example, living in Cheyenne, would adopt in having his
goods transported ~
A.That merchant does exactly what I do; he gets through-rates from
New York to Cheyenne. That is exactly what I do. I advertise, and any
railroad company or contractor says at what price they or he will give me
through rates; so far as I can avoid it I do not stop at Cheyenne. I
want to go through to the agency, so that I candelivergoods that I have
purchased and seen myself, and which have been inspected and sworn to by
the inspector, and for which I have his certificate of shipment.  I want
to deliver them to the fteight~contractor, take his wecipt, and bold him
on it, for those several packages until be gives me the agent's receipt, in
~voming or Dakota or Nevada.  That`iiakcs it a simple, clear, and
safe transaction.
Q.Have you ever compared tlie expense of transportation through a
freight-contractor with the expense of some other mode or arrai)gement
for the transportation of goods from eastern cities ~
A.Yes, sir.  I have compared uly rates with the local rates.  I go to
through rate men, and I find their terms are always more favorable than
I can get ill any other way. Then, by law, I have to advertise for bids
for any service I want done.
Q.Does the law require you to have a freight-contractor ~
A.The law requires me to advertise for any service I need, if I have
the time. ~~hen I need trat~sportation from New York to Red Cloud
I call for bids for that service, and on those bids the contracts are
let.
Q.We can easily imagine the necessity of a freight-contractor as between Omaha and the iI)terior; but the difficulty ii) my mind was in
seeing the absolute necessity of paying a freight-contractor for superin tending the transportation of goods from any point like an eastern city,
by common carriers, to some point in the ~Vest.
A.I don't pay-him for superintending; he gets lower rates than I cau
get, by applying to the several col~necti[ig ro'~ds, and being a private
citizen, compensates himself for his trouble by the margin, and still
leaves a considerable margin of advantage to the Governineiit.  I call
for rates; I don't call for a contractor.  This year I iiiade a contract
with the Northern Pacific Railroad Company for nites to Dakota.
They were the lowest bidders.  If the Northern Pacific or North western au~ Chicago, or any other transportation compal)y, had been the
lowest bidder to Cheyeni~c or Red Cloud, it would have got the contra~-t.
~L~ You are satisfied that the pre~ent system of forwar~ling goods
through a freight-contractor is a measure of ecoiiomy and safety to the
Goverijujejit ~
A~. I have no alternative in the matter; I am oblige~l to advertise for
bid~, an~l take the lowest resl)oi)sible bidder; and I am satisfied also
that the Governt~ient is better served tli(tt way than iii ai)y other.  You
cai ~ot go to New York and procure trinsportatiot to Red Cloud at anythiiig like the rates I get, unless you nake through arrangenients from
Ne~~ York with all the connecting roads, clear to that agency. 
67()
By Mr. llOWE:
Q. Does your contract with the N~~rthern Pacific require them to deliver goods off the line of the road ~
A. Yes, sir; they deliver goods a~ the ageilcies aloi~g the Missouri
P~iver above and below Bismarek.
Q. I doii't un~lerstand yonr allusior to difficul~ies which you said were
iutery)osed by the subsidized roads. Does the Government find any difficulty in shi~~ping goods to Ogden?
A. No, sir; providing we have an agent wlio will take them up at
Omaha and forwaul them.  I cannot ship directly from New York
through Omaha.
Q. ~~hy can yofl nOt ship through Omaha?
A. Because at Omaha I strike a subsidized road.  A subsidized road
won't deliver Government freight at Ogden unless I pay cash for the
transportatioii, which I cannot do.  The law does not permit me to pay
cash. I can oi~ly give them a certificate of credit, and that they won't
take on an arrangement for through rates.  They say, "If you want
to ship freight under the restrictions imposed upon the road by Congress, you must take up the freight at Omaha on a Government requisition   In that way Ican ship; but then the rates become excessie;
they are simply local rates.  I should say they were from twenty-five to
sixty per cent. higl~er thaii my rates are now.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Is the Govern~nent in that case in a worse position than a private
freight.shipper?
A. Yes, sir; because a private freight-shipper can pay the cash, and
I cannot-cash will get lower rates than a requisition.
Q. I mean, does the subsidized railroad make any discrimination
against the Government ~
A. The railroad does not give the Government through rates as it does
with a private citizen. The Government, however, gets from the road
certain credit by way of canceliiig debts which are not considered first
class.
By Mr. IIO~VL:
Q. When y6n substitute a private contractor for tlie railroad, then the
Government pays cash?
A. The Government pays cash.
Q. And dispenses with the credit?
A. Yes.
Q. The credit is simply deferred?
A. Yes; the credit is deferred.
Q. Is that for the advantage of the Government?
A. Yes, sir; I think so. It would depend upon how you val~e the
credit.  If the credit of the company is at par, it is greatly for tl~e advantage of the Government, and it would bear depreciatioti at least fifty
per cent. before it would cease to be advantageous.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. I understand that the Government, in any event, pays 50 per cent.
cash and credits the railroad 50 per cent.
A. No; it does not credit the railroad anything for freight carried
under contract.  If it ~`4~5 any cash, it pays it to the contractor.
Q. Is the whole.lmount of freight that the Government may ship
over one of these subsidized roads credited to the railroad company on
its indebtedness to the Government ~ 
671
A. If I ship asail offleer of the Government the road receives no cash,
but is obliged to take the whole amount in credit, according to a recent
law
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q~.
Does the railroad corporation claim the right to charge in all cases
against the Government its highest local rates?
A. Yes, sir. That is, I cantiot ship from New York to Cheyenne niy.
self, as an officer of the Government, and avail myself of th~ through
rates.  I can ship from New York to Omaha at through rates, but then
I have to pay local rates over the Union Pacific Railroad froin Omaha
to Cheyenne; but the freight.contra~~0~ shipping from New York may
go over the Kansas Pacific, and thus get a competing route to Cheyenne,
which I cannot have when my freight gets to Omaha.  lie can avail
himself of through rates from New York to Cheyenne, while the Govern.
ment can get the benefit of through rates only to Omaha, being compelled to pay local rates from there on.  The Government could make
terms equally as good as a private individual can by l)aying cash, but
that I am not at liberty to do over Subsidized roads.
Q. Suppose you shipped by Kansas City?
A. Then I strike a Subsidized road again, and encounter the Same
difficulty.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. The road from Dejiver to Clieyeniie is not Subsidized?
A. I think it is.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Mr. Smith, do all your proposals for Supplies embrace that pro
vision, that the contract shall not be assigned or filled without the written
consent of the Secretary of the Interior?
A. The form of the proposal is not Stereotyped; it is not the Same
every year. Some years I think it has been iii, and Some it has not.
Q. ~~ha\ meaning or construction do you attach to the word "tilled"
as diStinguish~~ from "assigned?"
A. I think it is a very unfortunate word to be used in that coilnection.
I Struck it out this year.
Q. It is not in the present pro~~osals?
A. No, sir. I should not Suppose it ~ be the intent at all to compel
a contractor to fill a contract personally; that would ot)lige a man to go
to Te~a~
, and drive his cattle to P~ed Cloud agency, and deliver them
there in person. So far as I am able to give any ~~ining to that, I
~uJ)posed it was intended to l)revent the transfer of a contract, wheff a
l)i(ltier gets an award, to any other l)arty, except upon t~'e authorit~ and
coii sent of the Departm~~~
Q. ~Veli, that provisiou is still retained so far as tlie assignmen~ of
tiie contract is cOncerned, but is abandoned so far as filling the contract
is concerned?
A.  Yes, sir.  I could never`fly self givd any satisfactory meaning to
ilie word "filled" in that connection.  Taken literally, it is ab~urd.
(~ Ilave you, therefore, even when you used it, ever practically sought
[0 etiforce that provisi0~?
A. No, Sir; not with that iiieanin~
Q You c9ustrued the provisio~ as iueai~ii)g assigned?
A. Yes, sin
~?- Aii(l gave no addition.~l force to the word "filled," as used in the
rovision?
A. No, sir. 
C372
By Mr. llARRiS:
Q. Do you mean, ~Ir. Smitb, that where iio actual assignm nt had l~een
made, where the contract stood in the name of the origina contractor,
you made no inquiry as to who in fact made the delivery 0 perfbrm~d
the services called for ~
A. If the service was satisfactorily rendered..
Q. Y~ou treated it as if performed by the contractor, without inquiry
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Do you kiiow whether the word "filled," as iised by those who
drew Up the provision, was aimed at any particular iiidividnal or any
particular class of abuses
A. I do not; I found the word in the proposals that were published.
~~hen I came into office the proposals were all out for 1873-'71, and that
phrase was in them.
Q. And has since been abandoned by you ~
A. Yes, sir.
WASHINGTON, D. C.,
T1~itrsday, ~epte~~~ber 16, 1875.
Present: lion. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, d~airmau; lion. B. W. liAR.
RIS, lion. CHARLES J. FAULKNER, Prof. GEORGE W. ATHERTON, and
lioii. TlMOTHY 0. liowE.
Professor MARSH was also present.
The examination of lion. E. P. Siiiitb, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, was resumed.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. Mr. Commissioner, will you please to explain to us the manner in which Indian agents are         appointed~
Answer. They are api)oiuted by the President and confirmed by the Senate. The President has directed that all nominations of Indian agents
forwarded to him by the Secretary of the Interior shall come first from
some representative officer of the religious body to which that agency
has been assigned for moral care and instruction.
Q. Do the Board of Indian Commissioners make any report upon
these nominations ~
A. No, sir; these nominations are made to the Secretary by the officers of the religious bodies direct.
Q. Then the Board of Indian Commissioners have 110 voice in the
recommendation of Indian agents ~
A. They have nothing to say about it, officially.
Q. liow are the agencies apportioned among tlie religious denomina.
tions ~
A. Do you mean Q. Who apportions them ~
A. The apllortionment was first made during the administration of
Secretary Cox, followin~, as I believe, largely, and 1 think entirely,
the recommendatioii of Vincent Colyer, who was then Secretary of the
Board of Indian Commissioners.  As I understaiid it, Secretary Cox
asked Mr. Colyer to look up this matter for him, and, by corresponding
with the several religi ()U5 societies, adjust the assignment in the best
way possible.  Vpon his rel)ort an~l recommendations tlie assignments
were niade, with perhaps some chaiiges, but not to any great extent. 
673
Q.Does the Board of Indian Commissioners recommend or suggest
any chaiiges in agents?
A.Yes, sir; whenever they thiuL the good of the service requires
such change.
Q.lias that Board ever made any recommendation in that respect
reg~rding the Ped Cloud agency?
A.Not to iny knowledge.
Q.1s there existing at this time, so far as you know, entire harmony
and acconl in the management of Indian affairs between the Board of
Indian Commissioners and the Indian Bureau?
A.Yes, sir I think entire harmony.
Q.llas there ever been brought to your knowledge, as Commissioner
of Indian Affairs, any charges against any member of the Indiaij Board
for improper conduct as one of the purchasing.committee?
A.Aside from what I saw in Professor Marsh's statement, no~ any.
If you mean whether I have heard ally report
Q.llave there ever been brought to your knowledge, I mean, any
charges of that kiiid in such manner as would require notice of them
oil vour part ~
A.No, sir.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.In that ~onnection, let me ask this question: It has beeii stated
in the newspapers that the agent of the Mission Woolen ~Iills of Cali.
foriiia in this city said the person who was sent to California to pur.
chise blankets tbr the Indians made that company pay him $1,200 iii
gold before he would make the purchase of the blankets. llave you
any iuformatioij in regard to this matter, or has the above statement in
any forn~ been brought to your notice?
A.Yes, sir; I saw it in tlie paper, and I had previously heard it somewhere else, I cannot say where now, and I called the attention to it of
oiie of the commissioners who was in California atthetime that this trans.
actioti purports to have takeii place.  tn the first l~lace, the newspaper
itetit cannot be true, because there was no purchase made of those
woolen~mills in that~year; in the second place, the member of the Board
of Indian Commissioners who was the principal one managing those
matters oii the coast, denied to me most positively that there was a
shadow of anything to make the story out of.
Q.You say there were no goods purchased that year of the Mission
~Yoolen j~Iills of California~
Q.That is as I understand it.  lle said there were no blankets purch;tse~l, or none of any account.  I am giving this now from my best
re~ollection.  It is possible that I am mistaken, but I think I am entirely right in that statement as to the purchase.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.By the treaty of 186S it is provided that the Sioux Indians
shall be located on the ~Iissonri J~iver, and I believe a portion of
them were at one time located on the Missouri.  Can you give us the
reasons, i~ot l)articularly for the location of those Indians so far inland
a~ they are locate~l ni)w, but the reasons, if there are any known to you,
fot the contiiiiiing of them so far inland from the railroad and river ~
A.The pa;'tit'ular reason is the utter refusal of the Indians to remove
to tie river~to remove in that direction.
Q.Have you any information to the contrary, that if the Governnietit should locate its agency anywhere and reThse to issue rations to
4~ I F 
674
tl~e India'is at ally other p(?int, they could do otherwise flian to go to
that age!)ey?
A. No, sir; I thiiik not iio'v, sijice we have troops on the reservatiqn.
J3ut previous to that I don't thii0k it would have been wise at all.  I
ord~red tlie agency moved orce in that direction.  Spotted Tail issued
couiiter orders.  He was on the ground, and having a greater force
tha~~ I liad he beat me. At one time, when a slight move was undertakeii by Ageiit Dai~iels nuder iny orders, Red Cloud ordered it back,
after the ageiicy propefty was loaded on the wagons; but now, with the
military acting in harmony, Spotted Tail could be put on the ~Iissoun
River with great advantage to his Indians and to the Government.  I
am not prepared to say that it could also be done with Red Cloud, for
want of timber-lards. But if the Poncas were taken out of the country
they have been inhabiting, and where they ought never to have been put,
being a part of the reservation given to the Sioux by the treaty of 1S6S,
and belonging by right to them to-day as much as any country does to
its inhabitai~ts, and put with the Omahas in Nebraska, where they belong ajid where they are willing to go, then their present reservation
would make a very suitahle place for Red Cloud and all llis Indians;
but he would be moved there only by torce.
Q. IJave you any iiiformation as to the means of subsistence of the
iiidiaiis there that would lead you to believe that they c~uld do otherwise than go to the agency ~
A. Yes sir; they could go off into the surrounding country and go up
into the Big Horn and Powder River region, and subsist for quite a while
liniiting a~~d depredating; but eventually they would be compelled by
force of hunger and l)ursuit of the militarv to go.  1 thiiik it is entirely
feasible providing Congress will mike the necessary legislation and
a ppropri ati oils.
Q. From your knowledge and exl)erience in these affairs, do you think
it is the true liolicy of the Governuient to make treaties and hold coun- -
cils with Indians in regard to what tlie Government deems it best
to do with them ~
A. It is only a question of expediency.  If you have force eiiougli to
compel the Indians to do what they ought to, and which is manifestly for
their good, the less you talk with them about it, by way of consultation,
the better; but if you have not force eiiough to give them to understand
that they will be compelled immediately to obey, it is better to parley
with them and gaili their consent in some way.  They call it a council
may call it talk or 1)owwow; it amounts to nothiu~ ujore.
you
Q. In your judgment, would it not be good policy on tlie part of the
Goveriiment to make such a display of force aiiioiig the Sioux as to
fully satisfy the Indians of the power of the Governineut to compel them
to do what it desires~
A. I think so by all meaiis.  I have ~`ilways acted upon that pn~nciple,
to compel Indians to do right, wheiiever I coul~l reisonably expect to
bring force to bear upon them.
By Mr. HA~RiS:
Q. You don't mean expect?
A. Yes; because I doii't know when I can have' force and when I cannot. I have been oftentimes in (lollbt when I s-iid a thing whether I
could get force to carry it out.
By the C~~iRMAN:
Q. You are often in doubt when you have ma~le an order affecting
the in whether you can get the force to carry it out? 
675
A. I have wanted to compel the Sioux, and Northern Arapahoes and
Cheyeunes, at Red Cloud agency, to give up the Indians among them
who have murdered white men, aiid to withhold every ounce of food until they did it; but I have not been able to bring it about yet.
By Mr. llOWE:
Q. Will you please explain that?
A. In the first place, the military has not until recently been in position at Red Cloud in any adequate force; then there have been other importalit and somewhat delicate questions occasionally coming up, such
as the relinquishment of the hunting privilege in Nebraska, and now the
question of the Black llills cession, which seemed to be paramount; and
I did not deem it wise to strike in now~ and make a~iy disturbance
among them until we can adjust these other questions. But we are only
holding them up until we can get at them in the best way.
Q. Are the duties of the superintendents of Indians laid down by
law?
A. Yes, sir; in quite general terms.
Q. In addition to the~duties indicated by the law are there any other
duties specifically set forth for them by the Department ~
A. I think not sir.  We call on them to do anything that they can
do at any time.
Q. Have the Indian agents at the agency, or the superintendents,
power to call upon the military at their discretion to enforce their orders, or the ~,rders of the Indian Bureau?
A. No, sir; I think not; an~l yet that question ofjurisdiction is by no
means defined as between the military and civil authorities.
Q. Have you experienced in the administration of Indian aftairs any
difficulty from a want, in agents, of the knowledge of the technical way
of doing things by the military?
A. Yes, sir; frequently; llot any serious difficulty, but a serious friction.
Q. What I mean to allude to particularly is, whether or not, in your
observation, the military authorities are very technical and particular in
regard to the manner in which they are called upon to perform services
for the agents, and cavil about even the words used?
A. Yes, sir; I think there are instances of that; but it is not by any
ineans necessarily so. That will depend entirely upon the state of cor(liality between the military officer who happens to be in command at
the agency and the agent.  If they like one another, they get along
harmoniously, but if they don't, any amount of technicalities will be in
order. I have found that true at quite a number of posts and agencies.
Q. Well, if the Sioux agencies could be consolidated, and be put
somewhere on the line of the railroad or on the river, would it not be a
very large saving in the case of fi~rnishing their supl)lies I
A. Yes, sir; so far as transportation goes, it would; but in my view
of the matter it would be absolutely impossible to coiisolidate them with
any view to do anything for them, except merely to muster them for
daily rations. If they are to be handled with any puri~ose to teach
them or their children any mode of living by which they can ever become selfsupporting, they must be separated into small coii~munities
aiid put upon agricultural lands.  If you should attempt to coasolid'~te
them you could find no place in Dakota where 40,000 Sioux could even
get fire-wood, ai~d cotton-wood timber for their I)onies.
Q.Have you ever had an estimate of the number of ponies owned by
these Sioux?
A.Yes, sir; I have the estimate.  I thiiik I have it officially, aiid 
(376
have heard it stated several times; but I haveii't it in mind just now; it
is a large number-I should say over 25,000.
Q. And do you know of any use that they have for them now ~
A. No use, except to occupy their minds; they are of no other benefit
whatever.
Q. WAl, in considering the subject of Indians, l~y the Department
and the Board of Indian Commissioners, have you. any hope of civilizing to any considerable extent the adult Indians, or is your hope of
accomplishing anything for them in the future entirely based upon the
expectation of educating and civilizing the children ~
A. Anything that deserves the name of civilization can be expected
only of the children; but you must undertake a certain degree of civilization with the old people in order to get the children, unless you lasso
them and put them in a corral, and send a schoolmaster to them.
Q. Caii you tell, from your recollection, whether Agent I~isley, formerly
of Whetstone agency, has ever settled his accounts with the Government?
A. I don't know whether his accounts are through the Treasury. I
think they are all through my Bureau, with perhaps a few suspensions.
There are probably accounts of other parties, for expenditures authorized by Agent Risley, which are not through my Office, but not many,
and these not properly his accounts.
Q. Is there any mode by which the Indian Bureau, without additional
legislation by Congress, can so supply the Indian agencies with means
for carrying on the necessary operations on their part that they may be
able to pay for what they get and preserve the credit by which they
may be able to buy what is necessary at reasonable prices ~
A. Do you speak of the agents' personal credit, bow they can get an
honest living on their salary and keep out of debt ~
Q. No, sir; I mean this: We find the fact to be that the agents have
at various times been compelled to purchase articles for which they
have given vouchers, but which vouchers have not been paid, or at
least not for a long time; some of them not paid at all; in consequence
of which I conclude that the credit of the agent in his community is
destroyed, and that when he purchases anything, the seller fixes a price
~hich will compensate him for those delays and for the chances that he
takes of losing his claim entirely.
A. The only additional legislation would be to provide the means
adequate for meeting the necessary expenditures; but there has been a
great deal of very loose management in that direction. Agents, when
they have been in a tight place, have ventured to incur liabilities, trusting somehow to get out of it. I found that practice running on to
a very unsafe extent, and have issued peremptory orders to ageiits forbidding them to incur, in any circumstances, any liabiJity for which they
have not flinds at their disposal to pay.
Q. Then, if an agent shouM be without funds in his hands, no matter
what the exigencies might be, he would not be able to purchase anyhing?
A. No, sir; under those directiqns he violates the order at his own
peril. Of course if he can show ihat there was such an exigency as
would justify him, then he is relieved from the responsibility. I am
satisfied that I have removed to a considerable extent the bad credit of
Indian accounts in maiiy cases. I have this to contend with, however,
that there are many old accounts, dating back two or three years, for
which I have no money, and have not been able to get any by a deficiency appropriation. These unmet obligations are still standing against 
677
the reputation of the Indian Office for common honesty. But I am sat
isfied that I am quite steadily bringing the expenditures of the Office
down to the funds placed at its disposal in annual appropriations.
Q. In your opinion, would it not be a matter of real economy for Congress to appropriate a sufficient sum to cover all this deficiency, pay up
all the oustanding debts, and raise the credit of the agencies?
A. There~is no doubt of it whatever, and there is no doubt now
that there will be trouble before the end of this year for want of adequate appropriation to meet the necessities of the Sioux agencies. I am
sure of it, unless those Indians can get more by hunting than they have
got for the last two winters; that is, I have not money enough to feed
them through the whole year; and, by law, I am forbidden to expend
for any one month more of my appropriation than belongs to that
month, so as to prevent the possibility of deficiency; and about November or December of this year you will bear of suffering at Red Cloud
agency, and perhaps that the ludians are eating their wolves and ponies;
and this time the report will quite likely be true.
Q. And are there no means in your power to prevent that?
A. Niot by law; whether the Secretary of <he Interior or the President will take the risk of violating the law of Congress, I cannot say;
I propose to lay the matter before the Department.
Q. llave you ever considered the subject of issuing clothing instead
of blankets?
A. Yes, sir; I have tried to procure the Army clothing condemned by
the quartermaster and thrown upon the market.
Q. Don't you think the Indians' hostility to the soldiers is such that
the experiment in the first place of getting them to put on white meii's
clothing had better be made with some other kind of clothing than that
worn by the soldiers?
A. I have not tried to procure that dothiiig for the w~ld Indians- it is
only for those Indians that have no objection to it, and who have asked
for clothing.  For mere covering, the blanket is much cheaper than
clothing. I can make my money go a good deal further by buying
blankets than by furnishing coats and pants, unless I can buy the condemned Army clothing. I think if legislation could be procured which
would allow the Secretary of War to transfer to the Department of the
Interior such clothing as the Army has discarded on account of style
or other defects, it would be a very large saving to the Government, and
of great benefit to the Indians.  The sales which the quartermaster
makes of this class of clothing net very little revenue to the Government.
Q. I see in the report of the Board of Indian Commissioners that
certain vouchers were disapproved by the Board on account of the fact
that they were vouchers given for corn that was substituted by you for
flour.  Will you please explain that transaction to the commission?
A. I made some reference to that in my statement which I made yesterday, but I will give a fuller statement.
Q. We are aware that tlie I'~dians like corn better tliaii flour, and
that they ought to have corn in place of some of the flour issued to
them heretofore; we have become advised of that out in their conntry.
A. When the contracts ~~ere inade iii the spring of 1S73, I h('~d no
knowledge-almost no knowledge of the condition of Indian affairs. I
went to the lettings in New York which had beeii already provided for
by calling for proposals.
Q. You bad just come iiitc office?
A. Yes, sir; within ten d('~j~5~ I think, of tlie time of niy coining into 
office, st~ that all the purchases for that year, as well as all the administrat;on of the Office, was all experiment with me. I might say here,
perhaps, that I did not find in the Office-in the idea of the Office-mu~h
to help ne in any plans looking specially toward the civilization of
Indians. The business of the Office, like all Government matters, has
been a r~>utine affair. It ought to be said, in this connection, of Corn.
missioner Walker, that no man could have been more earnest and sincere than he in advancing Indian civilization, but he had other matters on
hand. lle was Commissioner of the Census, and was absolutely unable
to take up Indian affairs and put them on a new basis to any great
extent, although there was immense improvement in all directions
during his brief administration. I did not find, therefore, in the Office
anything suggestive to me of any requirements of Indians, or any necessity, except what I could get from the accounts and vouchers of agents
and the stereotyped annual reports; so that there was before me an
entire terra incognita. In these circumstances, I depended largely upon
the information which the Board of Indian Commissioners gave me,
knowing that they bad had these matters earnestly in hand for two
years, and were studying the very question that had been on my mind
and heart out among the Chippewas of Minnesota, and the secretary
of the Board, Mr. Cree, and myself were in very frequent correspondence
and in very cordial relations. He wrote me from the Sioux country,
some time in the summer, that it was a great mistake not to provide
corn to a greater extent for the Indians.
Q.Who did you say wrote you ~
A.Mr. Cree, and he presented the matter so strongly to me, that I
saw at once that it would be a great economy and for the benefit of the
Indians if a part of the flour which I had purchased could be exchanged
for corn, and I immediately set about, doing it in the best way I couM
I had myself, when inspecting the Sioux agencies along the Missouri
River that summer, noticed the great waste which was made of bacon,
in shipping it during the hot months, by shrinkage; I noticed waste
also around the store-house, and determined to introduce pork as far as
possil)le instead of bacon. For these reasons I opened negotiations
~ith the contractors who had the bacon and flour contracts to give me,
instead of flour and bacon, a certain portion of corn and pork. I found
that the pork-contractors were willing to make the change. They let
me have the pork at a lower rate than I was paying for the bacon; but
when I came to the flour question, I found that the contractor had a
margin of profit on the flour which he was not willing to surrender,
unless I would give him the same margin on the corn, taken at the
market-price. I thought tha~ to be fair, and made the agreement with
him to take a certain amount of corn in lieu of a certain amount of flour.
I am satisfied that the corn thus taken was of vastly more benefit to
the Indians than the flour which I gav~ in exchange would have been.
Q.Do you remember the price paid for the corn ~
A.I do not; that whole matter is reported, with all the correspondence relative to it, in the report of the House Committee on Indian
Affairs- and the figures are there. The statement of Mr. Walker the
other night, that I paid four prices for the same article at the same place,
Is a mistake, as you will see.  His mistake arose from the fact that he
did not take into consideration that I was paying different rates for
freight to different points. He reckons the costs of freight for August
to all the agencies he names as the same, whereas they d~ffer according to distance from Sioux City. The question was raised during Mr.
Walker's testimony whether a certain quantity of corn, which it was 
679
found the Goveriiment had lost hy reason of a miscalculation on the
part of a eon tractor when he made the proposition to exchange corn for
flonr, had ever been delivered at Fort Peck.  I have in my hand the receipt of the agent for that corn, amounting to 83,560 pounds and the
statement of his issues of it to the Indians.
Q. This is the docuinent you refer to?
A. Yes, sir. As I recollect it, the price of corn at Sioux City, allowing for the margin of profit which the contractor claimed he was entitied to, was fixed at $1.90 per hundred pounds, including the sacking;
double sacks.
Q. That was in lieu of flour at what price?
A. It was $3.17~ per 100 pounds.
By the CiiMRliN:
Q. What position does Dr. J. ~V. Daniels ocenpy in the Indian Office?
A. lle is now special agent, in charge of the Black Hills commission.
Q. Has there ever been brought any charges, authoritatively made or
otherwise, of dishonesty in Indian matters on the part of Daniels?
A. None whatever, unless you will include newspaper statements by
William Welsh.                      0
Q. A report was made on one occasion by Kemhie and Alvord in reference to the affairs at N\ hetstone agency, in which they refer to Dr.
Daniels as probably being engaged in the same irregularities as had
be~n going on under Agent Risley's administration at Whetstone. Were
you ever able to learn that that was so, or did you ever make any efforts
to ascertain the fact?
A. No, sir; it does not seem to me possible that both of those gentlemen could have seriously thought Agent Daniels implicated in fraud,
because one or both of them recommended to me that Daniels, who bad
then become Inspector, should follow out the investigations which they
had commenced, but were unable to finish.  He was recom in ended to
me as a proper maii to push it through.
Q. By them?
A. By Mr. Kemble, certainly, if not by ~r. Alvord also; and Mr. Keinble, under my instruc ions, went to Daniels privately, or wrote to him
at any rate, I directed him to give I)aniels the fullest information on
every point where he had any su~picion of wrong, and the best advice
as to the means for ferreting it ont. I have always supposed Inspector
Kemble regarded Daniels as a thoroughly upright man.  I don't remember anything to the contrary as to Alvord's impression of his integrity, but in a subsequent interview Mr. Alvord exl)ressed his surI)rise that nothiiig wroiig had been fastened upon Agent Risley or the
con tractors by Daniels's report.
Q. Do you remember what, if anything, was done by the Indian
Oflice in reference to the report of Alvord and Keiiible.
A. Yes, sir; it was given to Inspector Daiiiels to ilivestigate.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. They recoiijmended, as I understand it, a special investigation.
A. Yes, sir.
By the CllATRMAN:
(?- That investigation was made by Daiiiels?
A. ~fes sir.
Q. ~~e have his report.
A. ~es, sir; and you have my instructions also to Daiiicls what to
do; bu~ thiS ought to be said, in respect to those iiistructio~is, tlI('it they 
680
arc not full or specific, or very enipliatic.  ThQy consist, principally,
in calling his attention to the re)ort of Kemble and Alvord. They were
purposely so framed on my part.  On reading the report of Alvord and
I~emble, I was quite sure that there was something there that ought to
be developed and exposed. I wa~ not sure that ally instructions I should
put on record iu my Office to t;~e Inspector would not get to parties
implicated for their information and benefit as soon as they would to
the Inspector, and for that reason I did not make my written instructions to Daniels specific, but I went personally to ~Ir. Kemble, and
afterward wrote him and made a very strong point with him, that he
should impress Inspector Daniels ~ith the importance of finding the
truth of those matters.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.Did your instructions contain, either expressly or by implication,
authority for ~Th. Daniels to seize, suddenlv, the books and papers of
the agency?
A.I think not on paper, because that would be what I would not
want the parties who had the books and papers to know that he was going to do; but I gave Iusp~tor Kemble very specific instructions about
such seizure regarding it.
Q.Do you remember whether you gave Inspector Daniels instructions what to do in case it should be necessary to seize the books and
papers?
A.No, sir; I do not think I gave Daniels instructions to seize
books.
Q.I think you might refresh your memory by looking at your letter
to Daniels.
A.I know it was on my mind, but I was caufious in the form of the
letter to Daniels, because I supposed it might get to the parties interested, and so thwart the investigation. [Referring to his letter.]  I see
by my instructions the direction, "If you find it necessary to resort to
seizure of papers or to other extreme measures, you will report promptly
by telegraph to this Office."
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.Do you know a man in Cheyenne by the name of French?
A.I have seen a gentleman by that name from Cheyenne in the Office.
I think he is the man who owns the store-house in Cheyenne.
Q.Yes; L W. French. When did you first get acquainted with him?
A.I think two Years ago.  It was in connection with letting his warehouse that he came to see me.
Q.Was it ever brought to your knowledge that he wns a partner of or
interested with McCann in any Government contracts?
A.Not in any way whatever, except Qv Professor Marsh two or three
months since, and I am not sure flint he stated that specifically, but he
stated his belief that French and McCann were closely connected.
Q.Did you have information before the time he was designated as a
person to keep some samples of flour at Cheyenne that he was in any
manner connected with any Indian contracts?
A.Not in the least, sir.  I did not know that he was the party desig
nated by the store-keeper at Cheyenne until some time after, I think not
until Mn Marsh told me in April last.
Q.If you recollect, you may state 110W the reason for the order which
you made at the time for reserving a sample of flour to be examined by
the inspector, forwarding the flour on to the agency.
A.As I recollect it, there was immediate demand for flour at the agency. 
681
No inspector had been appoiuted at Cheyenne.  The contract for flour
had been awarded; the sample on which it was awarded was yet in
New York waiting the appointment of inspector.  N\~heu the call came
for flour, at once I directed the store-keeper at Cheyenne, ~Ir. Palmer, I
thiiik it was, to procure, through a competent party, a sample of the
flour already delivered, and to retaiii snch sample for comparison with
the sample on which the coiitract was based, and not to give any receipt
for the flour to the contractor until it was found that the sample retained
was equal to the actual sample. From the information received I thought
the exigency to be such as not only to jtistif~y but to require such action
on my part, and depending on tlie integrity arid couipeteucy of the storekeeper to procure proper inspection, I supposed I was entirely safe.
By Mr. MAR5II:
Q. Admitting tiie necessity ~r flour at tlie agel)cy, was there any need         -
of sending on ten car-loads without any other inspection than this yoii         _
named ~
A. I am not aware that I gave instructions to send ten car- loads, and
I could not say iiow from recollection what was the extent of the necessity, as represented.  I am not aware that that amount was shipped at
that time.
Mr. HARRIS, (to Professor Marsh.) Is there any evidence in ti~e case =
that that amount was sent forward ~
Professor MARSH. I think so.
The CHAIRMAN. Oh, no; there is no such evidence.
Mr. HARRIS. Oh, no; not at all; there was only a small quantity sent
forward.
Professor ~IARSH. I understood it was ten car-loads.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Has there been any correspondence between the Indian Office and
the church authorities or other persons with reference to the nomination
of any successor to Saville as agent at Red Cloud agency ~
A. Yes, sir; Agent Saville has sent in his resignation; and the Rev.
Mr. Rogers, secretary of the Board of Episcopal Missions, has been
requested to iiominate his successor.  Action on Savilie's resignation
has, however, been held up until the result of this investigation, and this,
as I understand, in accordance with Saville's request.
Q. Was the resignation received before this investigation began?
A. Yes, sir.  He wrote the resignation while he was with the Sioux
delegation in Washington.
By Mr.HowE:
Q. At what ti'ne?
A. In May last.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Mr. Smith, what has been the condusion of your agricultural experiments there in that Sioux country?  Have they been such as to encourage the Government in further expenditure for plows, cows, and
oxen?
A. By the Sioux country do you meai~ those two ag~~~i~5~I)ed Cloud
and Spotted T~il?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. If those t~o agencies were by themselves, aiid it were cert~in that
those Indians ~-ould always remain there, I should say there was very
little encourageinelit; but takei~ in c~~iinection with tlie main tribe, of 
which they are only ab~ut one-third or a little more, there is a necessity tbat something sha~l be done-a beginning must be made though
it is the smallest-in the effort to bring them into another condition.
Those Indians cannot ccntinue~as they are. They must be brought to
get a living out of the,oil, either by herding or planting; and some
sort of a beginning, though expensive, is necessary, because there must
be a beginning, no matter how expensive it is. The question now is not
whether you will begin, but what is the best beginning you can make.
Q.So far the experiment has been unsuccessful there ~
A.Yes, sir. And that is what any one might expect from the surroundings; but if order and law could be established among them,
they could be made more successful, though not to any extent in their
present locality beyond the mere accustoming the Indians to some sort
of labor.
Q.You speak of the relations of the civil to the military authorities.
Have you known any instances in which the military have failed to respond promptly to the demand of the agent when there was a proper
occasion for their interposition ~
A.Oh, yes, sir; quite a number. I am not now speaking of Red Cloud
and Spotted Tail; I am speaking of the Indian service. If you confine
your question to those two agencies, I might modify my answer. Differences have arisen with the military at these points. I am unable to
judge who was right; but Agent Saville and Agent Howard thought
that the military did not quite do their duty. I could not well decide
between them.
Q.In the communication that you placed before us yesterday, you say
that, notwithstanding the unfavorable statements of Samuel Walker,
yet after you had received the report of the commission of which Bishop
Hare was chairman you gave your entire confidence to Dr. Saville.
Was that based upon the confidence you had in the personal character of
Bishop Hare or those who were concurring with him in that commission~
A.I had no acquaintance with Dr. Saville at that time, except by
office correspondence.  I could have known of him therefore in this respect only by reason of his nomination by the Episcopal board, which
was made, as I understood, on the recommendation of William Welch
of Philadelphia; I must have depended upon his credentials aud this
report of Bishop Hare.
Q.Well, were not Mr. Hinman and Dr. Bevier members of that commission ~
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Did they not, as early as October, 1874, by letter and con versation with you, indicate their total change of opinion in regard to Dr.
Saville ~
A.I have no recollection of either of those parties having any conversation with me to that effect, nor have I any recollection now of having
received any communication from them, except this correspondence and
an official report of Dr. Bevier, which you have here.
Q.Was not the report of Dr. Bevier, in which he announces to you
the character of that Appleton contract, laid before you as early as October, 1874?
A.Yes, sir; I thiiik so.
Q.From his statement of that contract, could you draw any other Inference than that the agent there was seeking to perpetrate fraud?
A.That is the inference I did draw from it, and which I was troubled
about; and I was anxious to know what possible explana~on he could 
t                        683
give for such transactions.  My concern is shown in my letter in the expression "I don't understand," &c.  And I also spoke to Bishop llare
about it on several occasions; and we agreed that Saville was entitled
to a hearing in the case before being condemned, and he bad it.  When
bis explanation came it modified very much the impression I had received
from Bevier's report.
Q. Did his explanation change the facts as stated by Dr. Bevier in
his report?
A. Yes, sir; I thii)k it did.  Take his explanation about the capacity
of that saw-mill and the amount of timber he sawed and you see it is
not fair to make any sort of comparison between what a mill can be
made to do in Minnesota or Colorado and what that mill could be made
to do.
Q. ~~as there any action taken by the Department in reference to
that transaction and its consequent bearing upon the fitness of the agent
to hold that position, until the attention of the public was called to it
by the letter of Mr. Marsh to the President of the United States ~
A. There was no formal action taken except to ask an explanation of
the agent.  I consulted, as I have stated, with Bishop Hare, who was
the representative of their board, and who had i>ersonal acquaintance
with Saville, and was responsible to a certain extent for him, and rested
there. so far as any movement for displacing Saville was concerned.
Q. Then you rested entirely on his own personal statement of the
matter in opposition to the facts as reported to you by the inspector of
the Government ~
A. No; I found from the additional facts brought out by the subsequent statement that the inspector was mistaken.  He did ndt state
correctly and fairly the facts about the mill; be was misled himself and
he did not give a fair statement in regard to the cost of sawing of those
logs.
By Mr. HOWE:
Q. Explain in what respect.
A. The Inspector in his report, as you will find it-as he read it to
you last night-does not speak of the capacity of the mill at all, but
speaks of the price which is ordinarily p~id for such labor at other in ills,
and makes a very severe implication against any man who would make
such a contract as the Appleton contract.  The fact is that the t~ed
Cloud mill was crippled and broken down; that it required frequent repairs, which the contractor bad to do; and during such repairs he would
have to stop his work and keep his hands on pay in idleness.  Saville
reports the`nill as capable of sawing only twelve or fifteen hundred feet a
day, while an ordinary mill will turn out from ten to thirty thousand.
Q. N\~hat possible explanation could lia'e been given to you in reference to the fact that he had agreed with his father-in-law to build the
slaughter-house at the price of -~45O. since it is ascertained that it was
sublet for ~180?
A. I don't know that any explanation ever was given, uiiless it can
be found in the fact that a mechanic caii well do a job for a respoiisible
man who will pay promptly, at a n~uch less figure than for the Government, because in the latter case he is conii)elled to wait for his iiioiiey
uiitil long after the work is done, and is ilot sure of it tlieii.
Q. Do you know that this sub-coiitr~ctor did iiot`l~U~~ t()`v;~it until
Mr. Appleton was paid by the ~roveriimeiit?
~.I don't kl)ow, but it is a very cominoii traiisaction iii that couiitry 
- ~?A ~~)&~~i'~    papers which we have show that ~In Appleton pail
that bill in money.
By Mr. FAVLKNER:
Q. ~Ir. Smith I understood you in yoiii~ statement to say that all the
money due to ~fcCann for the freight-contracts for the years 187~'74,
and 1874-'75, were paid in full of those contracts on the 2d of August,
1875~
A. No, sir; I did not make that statement, quite.  That is a differ.
ent statement from what I made; yet I think it substantially true.
~ hat I state is, that at the end of the year 1874`75, tlte Office owed ~Ic
Cann for transportation a certain amount. That amount was not paid
to him until the 2d of August, when it was paid.
Q. ~Vhen that was paid to him on the 2d of August, 1875, didn't that
pay him all that he claimed on his freight contracts for the years 1873-'74,
iand 1874-'75?
A. That I don't know. I will look it up if you desire.
Q. I understood that to he a proposition in that communication, and
that your justification in doing it was this, that you had entered into
the contract for transportation with McCann, which afforded you a corn
plete indemnity against these differences of distance, which were the
subject of controversy between you and him.
A. Yes, sir; you have got at the fact I was attempting to illustrate,
but not in exa~tly the form I was putting it. I was trying to show when
I made the settlement that I did not pay for May and June service until
-August 2, because if I had paid it before that I would not have had
any hold on McCann to any amount.
Q. The contract is at two hundred and twelve miles for those two
— previous years?
-,A. For the year 1873-'7t
Q. Then your reliance for some future settlement with McCann, in
relation to this point in controversy between you and him as to distanc~
between Cheyenne and the Red Cloud agency, you supposed had sufficient protection ill the new contract you had entered into with him for
transportation for 1875-'76?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was the contract entered into?
A. August 2, L believe. I am answering now from a u)emorandum
which was prepared for me from the records by a clerk in the office.
Q. You supposed, then, that on the 2d of August, 1875, you entered
with him int~ a new contract for 187~'76?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then what security could the Government possibly have on that
day as indemnity for those matters you had paid over to McCann?
A. On the 5th of August, when the retained balance was paid to McCann, he liad innuity~goods already on the way under his new contract;
he was under bonds to carry that contract out, and I could compel him
to carry it out, and when he came to receive pay for the service I could
reserve this amount found due on the old account.
Q. But suppose that McCann had failed on that day?
A. Then I would have sued on his bond.
Q. What for?
A. For failure to carry out the contract.
Q. So you think you could have sued that bond for ~51,OOO to recover 
685
against ~IcCann and his securities for the matters risilig in the years
1S7~'74 out of difference of opinion between you and himself as to the
distance between Cheyenne and Red Cloud agency?
A.liis bondsmen could be h~ld responsible for carrying out his contract. I should have shipped those goods immediately and called on
them to make payment for the shipment.
Q.If he failed to carry out the contract of 1875-'76, undoubtedly his
bondsmen would have been responsible.
A.I should have shipped goods immediately and charged the amounts
to McCann for the service rendered. McCann's bondsmen would have
beeji obliged to settle that account.
Q.~Vell, n6w, let me ask you, Mr. Smith, do you think that practice
in ttie Department is one conducive to the public service?
A.I think the action which I took perfectly protected the Department
for all prictical purposes.
Q.So it might, but has it. not a pernicious effect? ~Iight it not induce
the Government to give to a man a contract which, for other reasons,
he would not be entitled to?
A.I don'~ see how it would be possible.
Q.Does it not afford the contractor this inducemeiit, to create a controversy with the Government for the sake of securing a new contract?
A.It is possibly so; I don't look at it in that light, however. I consider that McCann had certain rights in the case; that this survey had
been delayed, and he was not resl)onsible for the delay; that was the
fitilure or misfortune of the Government; the office had fitiled all along
to get the measurement. I didn't feel like keeping the man out of his
money an bour after I was sure he was entitled to it, and that he had
m~de the Government entirely secure of a final settlement on facts
and equity.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.Under what contract was the transportatioii of July?
A.McCann's  He bad already performed service on this colitract before it was actually signed; he was carrying it on in good faith. There
was not a shadow of doubt but there could be this an)ount held at any
time against him.
Q.How long has it been since it was ascertained there was this question of distance between Cheyenne and 1~d Cloud?
A.1 think the question was raised in connection with the new contract made with McCann.
Q.~~hen was that?
A.Some time in the fall previous to this summer; in November, I
should judge, or October.
(~. November, 1874?
A.1873.
By Mr. MARSH:
Q.How was this distance of two hundred and twelve miles first de
teri~ijned?
A.McCann and I had quite a dispute over that.  I have forgotten
wh;it computation he made; he showe~l the figures of distance that had
bet~ii allowed before to this point, which would make it two hundred and
tw(lity mil~5. The new point was lii fact an old;)oint, that is, the old ~Thet.
stoiie a~~
~e1iQv was right by wher tlienew Red Cloud agency is, so that it
`vi S a matter l)ei)ding for officia settlement, and he claim~~d that the distaiice conce~led between old Red Cloud and new Red Cloud, adde~l to the 
686
distance which hau been paid for by the Offi~e, would make two hundred anJ twenty miles from Cheyenne to new Red Cloud.
Q. Y~u stated, I think, in New York that. this distance of two hundred au( twelve miles was fixed by Commissioner Walker himself; who
went twice over the road?
A. Of course I didn't state that of my own knowledge.  My impression is that this distance, allowing the distance from Red Cloud to new
Red Cloud to be eighty miles, was fixed practically by Commissioner
Walker, after passing over the route from Cheyenne to old Red Cloud,
and fixing upon a distance between those points. That was McCann's
claim, that the distance from old Red Cloud to new Red Cloud had been
allowed by the Government at one hundred and thirty-two miles, and
that after the Commissioner had ridden twice over the route in an ambulance. I bad the impression that this distance was thus fixed definitely
to the Whetstone agency by Commissioner Walker; but I do not find
any record to that effect, and I see that there was 110 occasion for fixing
the distance to Whetstone agency by him, because that freight during
his administration came the other way-from the Missouri River.
ByMr.llowE:
Q. I understand you t(? say that at the close of the last fiscal year
McCann bad a claim against the Bureau amounting to something more
than *14,000 for transportation rendered in the last two months of the
year?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The claim wa~ based upon an allegation that his transportation
had been conducted over a line two hundred and twelve miles in
length?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That if the line was that long the Bureau owed him that sum of
$14,000; and if, in fact, the line was less than that. the Bureau did not
owe him so much?
A. Yes, sir; $14,000 was the sum retained and deemed sufficient to
settle his accounts on the basis stated.
Q. And that you had withheld ~ayment of that sum of $14,000 to
await the determination of the exact length of the line?
A. Yes, sir; that is the exact state of the case.
Q. And that controversy arose on a contract which commenced with
the beginning of the fiscal year and closed with the fiscal year?
A. I think the contract commenced three or four months after the
beginning.
Q. And it was the contract of that year, and terminated at the close
of that year?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That subsequently you ~ade a contract with the same man to
carry goods for the current fiscal year?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That, having made that second contract with McCann for carrying
goods, you waived the controversy touching the earnings under the
former contract?
A. No, sir.
Q. You didn't waive that?
A. No, sir.
Q. But you paid him an amount which he claimed as if he had ren[`ered a service over the whole line he claimed?
A. Yes, sir. 
687
Q.And your supposition was, if I understand you, that you could, in
settling with McCann under the contract for the current year, reclaim
any amount of this $14,000 that you should subsequently ascertain was
an overpayment~
A.Yes, sir; that was what he agreed to; be did not put his agreeinent in writing, but he made the proposition before a witness.
Q.It is not in writing?
A.It is not in writing for that year, but it was an express understanding.
Q.Do you rely, therefore, upon the understanding, or upon any inherent powe?in the Department?
A.I was relying upon my power to make him do what he agreed to.
Y.But his agreement this year is to carry goods for such a price?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.And if he carries goods at the price agr~d upon, is he not entitled
to the money which you agreed to pay him?
A.No, sir; not if he agreed we should hold back part of it.
Q.Supposing he had not agreed to that?
A.Then he would not have got the $14,000.
Q.If he carries all the ~oods for the current year that he has agreed
to carry, you will not pay him the price you have agreed to pay; do you
mean to say that?
A.Yes, sir; if he is found indebted to the Government, for any cause
whatever, to any amount, it will be taken out of amounts found due him.
If I am in doubt about any account, I notify the accounting-officers of the
Treasury, and they don'~ pay any more until the doubt is settled. It
would be absolutely impossible for him to get a cent from the Treasury,
if the officers of that Department are apprised that there is an old account against him.
Q.You are quite sure that is so?
A.I am absolutely sure. They are frequently sending back accounts,
with a portion of the claim suspended, because the claimant is indebted
on a previous account, which has not been settled.
Q.Let us see about that. There has gone into the Treasury Department, for audit, an account for *14,009 to Mr. McCann on transportaMon
done in M~ and Ju'ie, 1875.  That has beeii audited and allowed, has
it?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.That acc~unt is settled?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.The Indian Bureau, therefore, and the Treasury Department-the
accounting.officers in the Treasury Department-have assented to Mr.
McCann's claim, that he had transported so many goods from such a
distance, and have paid him the moiiey for it?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Now, you are still quite sure that it is to-day in your power and iu
the power of the accounting-officers to say that he did not earn that
~14,()00, and therefore they may offset it against his earnings this year
under his present contract ~
A.Yes, sir; there is not a shadow of question about it; from my experience with the accounting-officers of the Treasury, I know they
never hesitate a moment to deduct from any account any suiu a claimant owes the Government on any other account whatever.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q From your statement, as I understand it, the books would not
show that he owed anything ~ 
688
A. No account for service to the Indian Bureau can get to the Treasury without passing through my h~~nds, and when McCann's passes me
it goes with the statement of what is stilt due on the old account.
By the CHAIRMA~:
Q. If his accounts were allowed and dated the 2nd of August, for
services rendered up to June, had h~ also rendered any services under
the new contract, for which he wou}d be entitled to compensation only
under that new contract?
A. lle had not completed any services. lle had services initiated,
which, in all human probability, he would complete.
Q. And would the pay for the amount of that transportation which
he was then engaged in moving be sufficient to indemnify the Government for any overpayment under the old contract on account of the
difference ill distance?
A. Abundantly.
By Mr. llOWE:
Q. I want to pursue this matter one step further.  I understand you
distinctly that, if you ascertain at any time hereafter that Mr. McCaun's line of transportation is less than two hundred and twelve miles,
and that~therefore you overpaid him ten or twelve thousand ~ollars,
you will refuse to pay him that as a sum of his earnings under his present contract?
A. Certainly.
Q. And you suppose the auditing-officers of the Treasury Depart`nent will support your view?
A. I know they will.
Q. You understand the current contract is one on which he may sue
the Government of the United States?
A. Yes; he can come into the Court of Claims.
Q. And bring the Government in?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Suppose you undertake to withhold $10,000 which he o~wes under
his existing contract, and be goes into the Court of Claims and sues the
Government to recover that balance, has he got to aver anything more
than that he carried so many goods, that the Government agreed to
pay him so much money therefor, and that the Government has refused
to pay bim this balance of $10,000?
A. No, sir; I suppose not.
Q. And if he maintains those allegations, what is your answer in
tbe Court of Claims?
A. I should have no answer there.
Q. Then he would get a judgment on the whole amount?
A. Yes, sir; and he would be sued on his agreement to return the
other, according to his written agreement with the Secretary.
Q. I don't understand that it was a written agreement.
A. Oh, yes, sir; there was a verbal agreement as to ~is $14,000;
but at the outset there was a written agreement, which he has signed,
with the Secretary of the Interior, that after the distance is fixed a final
settlement should be had on that distance.
Q. You are stating the contents of a written agreement from recollection?
A. You have it there.
Q. Now, see if you are quite right in stating the contents of that
wriften agreement; see if he does not stipulate that you may reserve
it from a particular fund, and that fund one earned under the contract 
689
of last year, and that fund you have already paid over.  Now, what
would be your answer in the Court of Claims t
A. 1 would have none in the Court of Claims.
Q. And he would get judgment?
A. Yes.
Q. And th~ judgment would be paid?                                         1
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.\Vhat then would be the relief of the Governmeiit, Mr. Smith?           I
A.The Geverument could bring him into court OIL e(~uity, under his
agree n~ en t.
Q.Suppose it could; is it not a payment that his b2:~ds would not be
respor~sible l~or?
A.Yes, sir; no doubt of that.
Q.Then you have nothing but his individual responsibility to rest
u~)on?
A.And tlie absolute fact that he was transporting goods; that he
was already engaged in the transportation, and was thus already
brought under my power, and was every day becoming more so, to this
extent at least, that I could keep him from getting any pay on that
large contract until he should get his case through all tlie delays of the
Court of Claims, which would take him a long time, several years prob.
ably, and would break up his transportation business entirely, for he
was depending on his monthly receipts from the Government, and place
him in the attitude of a defaulter on his agreement with the Depart.
ment; so that there was not, in ~ny mind, the remotest probability that
be would think for a inomentof such a thin~ of att
obligations.                       ~,     einptingto evade his
Q.Mr. Smith, you expressed an opinion in your reii~arks here before us
that pork should be substituted as food for the In~lians iii lieu of bacon.
Has not that been utterly abandoned by the Goveriiment as an article
~r supply to the Indians?
A.No, sir; I am forcing pork on the iiorthern Indians as fast as I can
compel them to take a certain amount of it iii stead of bacon every year.
Q.Haven't you ascertained by the experience of the Red Cloud
agency that it is not a proper article of food for the Indians?
A.No, sir; I have abandoned it at Red Cloud for another reason; it
is because it costs fully as much as or more than bacon delivered at that
agenQv; but on the river I enforce it, because transportatioii is low in
price, and that makes pork cheaper than bacoii.
Q.Now, in regard to pork in barrels, how much of the weight is embraced in the mere liquor in the barrels?
A.About one-third of a barrel.  0ne-third of what a l}arrel of pork
weighs is not pork, but is liquor and salt and barrel.
Q.~~onld you regard that as wise economy oil the l)art of the Cov.
ernmeiit, paying so heavily for transport;itioii, or paying for tn~iisportatioli of so much barrel and liquor in~tea~l of bacon?
A.if the additional traiisportatioii does iiot exceed the niargili be
tweel) the cost of bacon anLi pork, as it does iiot by eoiisider;~ble at
suver;tl points, it is still good economy.
By the CllAIRMAN:
(~. It is because the traiisporta~ion exreeds th~ rn'lrgill ha ~ ou
abtitdoiied the use of it at Red Cloud ag~I)cy?
A.  Yes, sir; for no other ~~t50~.
44 1 F                                                                 } 
690
By Mr. FAULkNER:
Q.Mr. Smith, you were asked about the duties of the superintendency. Is it not a ~art of the duty of the Indian superintendents to examine and inspect the agencies?
A.Yes, sir; they are responsible for the orderly and proper conduct
of the agencies under their charge, and that implies in;~pection and
visitation.
Q.Do your superintendents ever perform that duty?
A.Yes, quite frequently; I have only two superintendents, though.
Q.I thought there were four.
A.Only two.
Q.Has the Superintendent who resides at Omaha ever visited any of
the agencies?
A.Oh, yes, sir; visited all his agencies, I suppose. I know be visite~l two or three.
Q.Have you reports from his visits to different agencies?
A.He is obliged to make annual payments himseli~ at all these
places. The money is sent to bim and be makes the payment in person,
and certifies to it.
Q.Why is it that the inspectors are not required to perform the duties
which the law of Congress imposes on them, of visiting each agency
twice a year?
A.Because it is impossible. We have not inspectors enough. Congress quite often requires things which cannot be done.
Q.Ihen it is not done because of the physical impossibility of performing the duty?
A.Yes, sir; but the requirement for this biennial inspection is now
repealed.
Q.Is it yo~r opinion that tl~e off~ce of superintendent is a rather unnecessary appendage to the Indian system?
A.It ought to be made general or abolished; that is, there ought to be
something covering the whole field on a general system. An inspector,
as he is now put at my disposal, has an advantage over the superin.
tendent, because I can send him at will to any point to investigate.
Previously I was obliged to give him a district and send him through it
to all the agencies, and then give him another district.
Q.To what extent does the Government furnish the Indians with
arms, if it does furnish any at all?
A.Up to the present time I doubt if the Government has furnished
15() stand of arms altogether. Possibly it would reach 200; but I have
just recommended the purchase of 100 guns or more for certain friendly
Indians, to use in defending themselves against certain wicked Indians.
I have been trying to get them for some time.
Q.~Yhat Indians?
A.For the Shosbones and the Crows, to defend themselves against
the Sioux. I desired to purchase guns for the Poiteas also for the same
purpose.
Q.Don't you think it would be a better policy to disarm all the Indians
than to arm one band against another?
A.~ 0, sir; they should be allowed and aided to protect themselves.
I don't think the fact of the Poncas being armed would operate to invite
hostilities by the othe~ tribes. It would have the contrary effect.
Q.You mentioned in your e~aminafion, Mr. Smith, that the Board of
Indian Commissioners had never recommended a change of agent at
~ed Cloud. Have they recoin mended a change of agent at any of the
indian agencies? 
691
A.I think so; they have suggested it, I think, with the Poncas; and
I think there is a suggestion now as to the change of an agent; I atn
sure there is.
Q.I understood you to say they had no power to make a change themsel ves.
A.Yes, sir; but their relation is such that their suggestion is acted
on without question.
By the CHATUMAN:
Q.About bow large a band is that band or tribe of the Poncas?
A.About seven hundred and fifty or tight hundred.
Q.They are located i.n the northern part of Nebraska?
A.Yes, sir; in a very fine country.
Q.Why should they not he removed to the Indian Territory, away
from the Sioux?
A.They shonid be removed. I have been working at it for two years
and a half, and ii ave their conseut for them to go down with the Omahas,
who are their cousins, and I need nothing but legislation to compensate
the Poncas for the country they give up, and compensate the Omahas, for
the country they take. As soon as those two things can be brough~
about, they will go.  I propose to call the attention of the Secretary of
the Interior to it again, and, if possible, procure congressional actioji this
winter.
By ~Ir. FAULKNER:
Q.In the letter of ~Ir. Alvord, he states that, apart froni his official
report to you, lie placed you in possession of some very important intelligence in regard to the corrul)tion and abuses in that department~ and
especially gave you such proof of the conduct of the agent, that it ought
to have insured his conviction if there had been a vigilant officer to
look into it.  What have you to say about that?
A.I should ~ay that was his opinion, and also that I had the same
imj)ression that he did, that there was wrong there, and it ought to
be found out and punished.  I took the very m~asures he suggested,
namely, to put it in the hands of Inspector Danie}s, who was familiar
with the whole thing, and I procured for Daniels all the information that
he and Kemble had obtained, and sent Daniels to Kemble for other
items.
Q.Was there any effort made to instruct tlie district attorney or
any officer of the Government to ilistitute crin~inal prosecution agaiiist
the agent?
A.No, sir; there could not be on that report of Inspector Daniels.
Q.There is what he states, that, apart from his rel)ort, lie gave
you such facts as ought to have required you to institute criminal pro ceedings against hijn.
Q.That is his opinion.  I would have instituted criminal proceed ings it I had had any facts. Re gave me only ol)iniolIs and reports,
without any proofs, because he said lie could not get them.  That was
tlie object in sending Daniels, to find the l)roofs of fraud which Remble
and Alvord thought, and I thought, they had fountl. \Vith these proofs
I should have proceeded to prosecute the wrongdoers. In coliversation
subsequently he impressed me with tlie feelitig that there was wrong
there that ought to be righted, and I ~et about it, but it canie to 110th ilig. I was as much disappointed as he was.  I have talked with hiin
about it siiice, and expressed my disap~ioi~itineiit  I have 110 data what ever from Inspector Alvord that are iiot in that report. I have no recol lection of any being given me that are not theic.  Whatever he said to
 
~92
me, if he did furnish any additional data, they were sent by him or Mr.
Kemble, at my request, directly to Inspector Daniels.  My injunction to
Inspector Kemble and to Alvord was to give all the facts, put them in
Daniels's hands, and help push the investigation. Those men were hearty
about it. I think Mr. Kemble was more hearty in the prosecntion than
Mr. Alvord. lie was going out there again, and would be on the ground
to assist Dr. Daniels iii the investigation. That matter, I ought to say,
in justice to myself, was the first involving anything out of the ordinary
routine that I struck on coming to the Indian Office. Everything was
new to me, and my recollection of them and conversations respecting
them may not be exact. I only give you the results of my best
recollections and impressions. I know how I felt and I know what I
tried to do; and I know how disappointed I was when I saw that I had
not done anything.
By the CllMRMAN:
Q.The agent Mr. Alvord alluded to iu the statement just read by
Mr. Faulkner was Agent Risley, was it not?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.And ti~e agent at that time at R~d Cloud agency was Dr. Daniels?
A. Yes, sir; Daniels had been appointed inspector, and was waiting
for his successor to come to relieve him as agent.
By Mr. FAULKNFR:
Q.In this letter Mr. Alvord speaks of Graves's transportation contract as a fraud, which he developed fully before you, and caused the
suspension of the payment of money due upon that contract.  lias that
money been paid since?           -
A.No, sir; it was snspended, and has not been paid, on account of
the undoubted fland in it.
Q.And is still unpaid by the Government?
A.Entirely so; it is rejected entirely as a contract. ~Ve are only
trying to find the poor fellows who did the work, in order to pay them
individually for their work. NVe propose to pay the persons who actnally did the work, ~nd ignore the contract entirely.
By the CiiAiRMAN~:
Q.That contract was made with Graves by whom?
A.By Risley. It was never approved by the Department.
By Mr. IlowE:
Q.Do I understand you to say that each of the agencies iii the
United States have been assigned to some religions denomination for
religons care and instrnction?
A.Yes, sir with possibly three exceptions.  I explained afterward
what that assignment was-what it amounted to; it was not a formal
assignment.
Q.~Vhat is it?
A.The relation is defined by the privilege which the President gives
to them to nominate the agents. They make the nomination. on the anderstanding that they are interested in the welfare of the Indians, and
are engaged, or will engage, more or less in the moral and ~ligions elevation of the Indians belonging to the agencies thus assigned.
Q.Then the denomination seenres the privilege of selecting the agent
upon the understanding, expressed or implied, that the denomination
will engage in civilizing and elevating that tribe. Is that it?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.This assignment, then, does not amount to the exclusion of any
other denomination from engaging in the same work? 
693
A. No, sir; not at all; but it gives this denomination the inside.
They have the agent, and therefore they naturally ii ave the employe's,
so they are in possession.
Q. As matter of fact, is it known to the Indian Office the extent to
which the different religious denominatiojis contribute to civilize such
tribes as they select the agents for?
A. The amount is known iii dollars and cents, and also the number of
missionaries and teachers that they send.
Q. The Indian Office knows, then, the atnoujit of money contributed
by th~~EP~59OP~l Church for the civilization of the Sioux Nation?
A. ~es, 511'.
Q. Can you state what amount that is?
A. No, sir, not positively; my impression is, that it varies from
$20,000 to $40,000 a year.
Q. How do you obtain this information?
A. I get the reports from the agents, and the reports fr'irn the society,
also from the reports of the Board of Indian Commissioners. It is possible that amount is not for the Sioux Nation alone, but embraces all               F
the agencies they have. Bishop N\~hipple, of Minnesota, has spent quite
large amounts at N\~hite Earth.
Q. Is it communicated to the Office officially, or do you get it from
their own publications?
A. I get it from their own publications, and also from those of the
Board of Indian Commissioners.  I also ask, as one of my questions
to be answered in the annual reports of the agents, "How much
money have benevolent societies expended for the elevation and cornfort of the Indians?" But the answers to this question are not alway 5
reliable, because the agents have not always all the information.
Q. Do you embody this information in your annual report?
A. I embody all I get from the agents.
Q. ~Vhat they tell you, you put in your report.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you your last report here?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you any one of your reports here?
A. No, sir; but I can get the information from my report and the
report of the Board of Indian Commissioners.
Q. You say that the Sioux refuse to move to the Missouri i~iver?
A. Yes, sir; there is a long report from the commission which was
sent out to locate Spotted Tail ayear ago; aiid it found the utmost difficulty to persuade them to remove at all; and in fact, when it did move,
it went ten miles farther south and west, instead of north and east, as
we tried to have it.
Q. It is known to the Office that those two agencies are outside of
the reservation altogether, is it not?
A. Outside of the permanent reservation; they are inside of the reserved Indian country.
Q. They are on territory which they have expressly stipulated not to
occupy Permanently, are they not?
Q. No, sir; they are not in the Territory which the Governmejit expressly stipulated they might occupy permanently, but they are within
the territory which they expressly stipulated should not be occupied
by white people, and "hi cli stil)ulatiou the Croverijtneijt a~reed to.
Q. The second articl~', of the Treaty of 1S6S reads as follows:
A~TICLE IL.
Tie United States agrees tbat the following district of coi~ntr~, to wit, Viz: cOn~mnc in Cu tlie east bank of the ~Iissouri 1?iver where the forty-sixth parallel of north latitude
 
694
crosses the same; thtnce along low-water mark down said east bank to a point opposite
whcre the northern in of the State of Nebraska strikes tlte river; thence west across said
river, and alottg the n~rthern line of Nebraska to the one hundred and fourth degree of iongitude west from Greenwich; thence north on said meridian to a point where the forty. sixth
parallel of north latitud intercepts the same; thence due east along said parallel to the place'
of beginning; and. in addition thereto, all existing reservations on the east bank of said
river shall be, and the st~me is, set apart for the absolute and undisturbed use and occupation
of the Indians herein n'tmed, and for such other friendly trihes or individual Indians as from
time to time they may be willing, with the consent of the United States, to admit amongst
them; and the United States now solemnly agrees that no persons, except those herein designated and authorized so to do, and except such officers, agents, and employe's of the Government as may be authorized to enter upon Indian reservations in discharge of duties enjoined by law, shall ever he permitted to pass over, settle upon, or reside in the territory
1described in this article, or in such territory as may be added to this reservation for the use
of said Indians and henceforth they will and do hereby relinquish all claims or right in
and to noy portion of the United States or Territories, except such as is embraced within the
limits aforesaid, and except as hereinafter provided.
Are these agencies not on territory which the Indians expressly stipulated that they should not occupy permanently?
A. I should~say No, to that. I should say that they are not in the
Territory where they agreed to go, but they did not stipulate not to stay
there. They have not stipulated not to live in Nebraska; they have
stipulated to live in Dakota, and they are not in Dakota.
Q. What was the authority which located those agencies at Red
Cloud and Spotted Tail ~ I don't know of any other way of designating the locality.
A. I think when Be~ Cloud was located it was supposed to be in
Dakota.
Q. The question was, What was the authority which located those
agencies at those      places?
A. The action was taken under the direction of the Interior Departin cut.
Q. Do you mean the Secretary of the Interior?
A. Probably to include his knowledge and consent, though I have no
knowledge of the facts in. this case; any such question as that would
naturally come before him.
Q. You can a~certain definitely, can you not?
A. I tltink so; though, as I said, when the direction was given to
locate Red Cloud agency, it was supposed to be iii Dakota, but was
afterward found to be in Nebraska.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. The line had not been run out yet, then, had it?
A. No, sir.
By Mr. llOWE:
Q. ~Vho constituted that commission which went out last year to locate
Spotted Tail agency?
A. Bishop llare, Mr. llinman, Dr. C. C. Cox, and C. B. Lines.
Q. Now, in this connection, I want to call your attention to the fifteetith article of the Treaty of 1868:
ARTICLE XV.
The Indians herein named arree that, when the agency.house and other bnildings shall
he constructed on the reservation named, they will regard said reservation ~)etr permanent
home, and they ~~ill make no permanent settlement el.~e'vhere; hut they shall have the
right, subject to the conditions and modifications of this treaty, to hunt, as stipnlated in article XI hereot..
I submit whether that does not amount to a stipulation on the part
of the Indians ~.
A. It has never been fulfilled on the part of the Government. It has
not established their agency nor erected buildings. 
C95
Q.And therefore this last stipulation on the part of the Indians has
not taken effect.
A.I should think, so far as that is concerned  Q.N\~ill you state why the Government has not constructed buildings?.
A.They suppo~ed they did, in the co~istruction of Red Cloud agency.
Q.Was that the place mentioned iii tl~e treaty for the construction of
the agency.
A.No, sir.
Q.N\7hy bas not the Government done that which you now say is a
condition precedent to excluding the Indians from Nebraska?
A.I am not able to say officially, because this whole matter occurred
before I came into acquaintance with Indian affairs; but from the record
and history of it, I should say the agency was not established on the
~Iissouri River, because it was deemed best to get the Indians moved
from the Missouri over toward Cheyenne.  Spotted Tail and his company moved over there on the representation that they would be demoralized on the river, and that it would be desirable that they should
get away where no white men could come.  The main body of the Indians that were around Laramie-~ed Cloud's followers-have never been
willing to move a mile in that direction.  They moved but a short distance after great persuasion and threatening of force. It has liot been an
easy matter to handle such an intractable set of men, whom you cannot
compel to do what they have agreed to do.
Q.Your understanding is that the stipulation of the treaty has not
been enforced because the United States has not been able to do it?
A.Yes, sir; did not wish to make an issue and see whether they
were able or not.
Q.The discretion which was exercised upon this point was the discretion of what Department of the Government?
A.it must have been the Interior.
Q.Are you sure it was the discretioii of the Secretary of the Iiiterior,
or the head of the Indian Bureau?
A.I could not say from knowledge, but from my acquaintaiice with
oflicial matters I should say it must have been the Secretary.
Q.You judge that, but don't kuow it?
A.I don't know it.
Q.~~hen you became Commissioner of Indian Affairs, did you or did
you not ascertain the fact that the agency-buildings had not been erected
on the Missouri in accordance with the stipulations of this treaty?
A.No, sir; I don't know that I had any reference to that stil)ulation,
as to where they should have been erected. I fouiid where they werewhere the Indians were-and where, so far as I could see, thQy would
have to remain for the present.  I did not inquire further.
Q.You did not look to see what the obligations of the Goveriiinent
were~
A.No, sir.
Q.Nor how far they had or had not beeii observed?
A.No, sir; not in that respect.
Q.In Some controversy you spoke of, in reply to a question put by the
chairman, between yourself and Spotted Tail, you remarke~l that Spotted
Tail beat you.  What was that coiltroversy? ~Vhat was tiie I)recisc
occa~ioi1 on which Spotted Tail beat you?  ~Vhat was the order that
you issued and which he counterm~tnded?
A.My order was to move over toward the Missouri I~iver; I tliiiik
about half way to the river.
Q.~~hcn? 
(396
A. In the sui0~mer of 1873-my first sumn~er ill otllce-aiid the agent
started to do it, aiid Spotted Tail prevei~tetl it.  There were no troops
nearer than Fort Larainie, and it was at that time insisted that no troops
should enter the Sioux country, as the treat~~ expressly stipulates.
Q. ~Vhere was Spotted Tail at that time?
A. lie was at his agency.
~. At his present agency ~
A. No, sir: he has been moved since that.
Q. Where was he at that time
A. lie was on the White Clay River.  I tltink he is on it now, only
farther up the river. lie was at the old agency, where Risley left him.
I was never there, and can't give the exact location.
Q. Why di(1 you direct his removal toward the Missouri, and not to
the`Missouri?
A. Because of the country tli;it was reported to me to be suitable for
glazing and for cultivation, which had beeii found there.
Q. Do you mean you had been informed the locality to which you directed his removal was a suitable one?
-A.Yes, sir; a very desirable one in comparison to the one he was at
at the time.
-Q.Were you also informed at the same time that the place he was at
was unsuitable?
-A.Oh, yes sir; I had positive evidence on that subject.  It was an
-alkaline, barren country.
Q. From whom did you receive that information?
A. From Agent Risley and Agent Howard.
Q. Do you remember the precise locality to which you directed fl~eir
removal?
-A.No,sir; I could not describe it only by tlie general direction,
-which I should say was east by north from where he was.
Q. Do you remember the distance you would have had to traverse in
making the removal I
A. No, sir.
Q. Was there an estimate submitted to you of the cost of making the
removal?
A. I tl)iJ)k so. I talked with Howard, the agent, about the means at
his disposal-the teams around him for doing it.  I did not suppose it
would be a very heavy cost. At ally rate, my computation was that I
was going to save that year in transportation ~nore than enough to
cover tlie cost of removal; that, I remember, was the agent's estimate.
Q. What time in the year was this?
A. I think this was in Sel)tember.
Q. Had you made your contracts for transportatioli that year?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you any evidence as to what you could get transportation for
to the new agency?
A. The proposed location was on the route and shortened the distance right on the same road, as I nnderstand it.  I may be mistaken
about that, but it is in ihe general direction of the traveled road to the
Missonri River.
Q. Yonr contract for transportation was from Cheyenne?
A. No, sir; it was the other way, from the Missouri River that year.
Q. Do you remember wheth~er, by the coiitract that year, you paid a
given sum per hundred miles
A. Yes, sir; I transported by the mile.
Q. You say Spotted Tail refused to comply with your direction
A. Yes, sir. 
697
Q.And you surrendered the direction to withdraw it?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Did you make any question with hiin at that time that he had
stipulated to go half way to the Missoun~?
A.No, sir; I wasn't aware of it at that time, and if I had been my
acquaintance with the Indian would not give me the slightest reason to
suppose such argument would bave any weight with him against his
own wishes when he had the power in his own hands.
By ~~r. FAULK~~ER:
Q.The provision of the Treaty of 1868 to which I called your attention yesterday is contained in the tenth article, and is this:
And the President shall annually detail an officer of the Army to be present and attest tije
delivery of all the goods herein named to the Indians, and he shall inspect and report on the
quantity and quality of the goods, and the manner of their delivery.
A.I statcd yesterday that I was not aware of that provision in the
treaty.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q.So far as you know, the President has never made any such appointments?
A.I have no knowledge of it.
By the CHMRMAN:
Q.I saw recently a statement to the effect that the President had
made an order, or that there had been detailed a military man as
inspector.
A.That was at my request.
By ~rr. II OWE:
Q.I understood you to say that, in your opinion, Spotted Tail's band
might profitably be removed to the Missouri River?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.But that Red Cloud's band could not be removed unless the Pon.
cas were removed from their present reservation?
A.I don't know of any suitable location for them, except that now
occupie~l by the f)oncas.
Q.~~hat is the extent of their reservation, in miles from north to
south?
A.It is about two hundred miles square.
Q.~Vhat is the whole number of Sioux Indians with whom  you are
now dealing under the Treaty of 1868?
A.About 40,000.
Q.How is that number ascertained, as reported to you?
A.By the agents, on count or on estimate, or both; that is, sometimes a partial count and an estimate for the remainder.
Q.Have you an official statement of the different bands of the Sioux
Indians, and of the numbers belonging to each baud?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Can you furnish us with that statement'.
A.Yes, sir.
Q-~`lll you be good enough to furnish us with that statement at
your earliest convenience?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Arid specify the numbers in each band, and ascertaiti by count,
and tlie nunibers which are included in estimates?
k.Yes, sir.
{~Vituess produced the following st atement.} 
b98
Table of statistics relating to pepelation, education, 4-c., by tribes and their respective aLan.
cies, of Sioux Indians belonging to the permanent rese~vations in ~~braska and Dakota.
10
Population.                         -~  ~~           0
I —     -..
no.    -    ~
`-0`-~         a~    a      0
-  ~~  -    0`-~`                                                       5    -     n~  a~~   ~n    an
Name of agency and tribe.                                  Ii    -~  ~n~   0~~   ~~
a    ~~
0~   0        ~     0~  oa0   0
0                               ~ 0  ~
a                          -  a     a
a                   ~a       -    -   -   J~a.a    -    -~
-~                        a
0      0              a    a         -s
Santee Sioux agency.
Sautee Sioux               360    440    800    5   6  6   100  100      20  400`60
nAKOTA.
Cl~eyenne Rirer agency.
Two Kettle Sioux         1 007   1,259
Sans Arc Sioux           1,798    980   7,586   4  4  11   138   75                 90
Miuneconjoux Sioux         257   1,560
Blackfeet Sioux            325    405 3
Flaadreau *peeial agency.
SanteeSioux.....                         312
1   1  1    49   *     *      *    312
ronca agency.
730    1   1  1    99   *     *      *     *
Poucas
J?ed Cloud ageacy.
Oallalla Sioux.....\\                    1
MsalnnsnAeOr(WJ~~~xuxS{OJ.1f.:::;;;:;1 lO~648                1                      *
Northern Cheyennes                      1.202
Northern Arrapahoes                     1,092
Standing Rack age~wy.
Upper Yank tonal Sioux -
Lower Yauktouai Sioux
Unc~pa Sioux                            7~322
lilac eetSioux....     
Spatted Tail agency.
Miuneconjoux Sioux     -   390    392
Sans Arc Sioux             110    1-)9
Bruld Sioux             4,15-2   4, ~~ I  9,610
Two Kettle Sioux            80    88 "i         1                                   *
Crew Creek agency.
LowerYanktonaiSioux        640     500
Lower Brule Sioux          960     840`~~~~    3   ~  3    47   33       7   16    13
I      I                           I
Yanktan agency.
YanktouSioux...  2,500   6  7  10   706    *    *            *
Scattered Sioux not under                                                        I
an agent                                             -~       I         --
10,079  10,922 It3a   21     32 1,139   208    30   416  1215
I           I'~22                          I
* Report not yet received.
t With the exception of the scattered Sloax, estimated 5.000, and the bands at Standing Rock, estimated 7,322, the population is by actual count, and the estimate at Standing Rock is thought to be quite
accurate, having been made on the numher of lodges.
No~.-The above table is made up from`atest advices in the Indian OtIce. The fl-ores probably
differ slightly, but not materially, from those which will be given by the reports of the respective
agents ter the year ending September 30, 1875. 
69~
Q. Suppose there are about forty thousand men, women, and children
belonging to the nation, and two hundred sections of land between the
north and south lines of their reservation, how many sections deep on
the river would you require to give to each family of five persons a
quarter-section of land I
A. I could compute it if I knew the length of the riv~r-frout.
Q. Call it perpendicular for the purpose of calculation. It is iiot any
less than perpendicular, at all events.
A. There would be eight thousand families, which would take tWo
thousand sections, and would require ten sections deep on the river.
Q. Then a strip ten miles in depth, if the river were perpendicular,
would give you a quarter of a section of land to every five individuals
of the tribe I
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So long as Indians depend ii pon the (;overument rations for sup.
port they might as well be all located on a single section as on any
greater number of sections, might they not?
Q. No, sir; I should think not. Their support would cost a great
deal more than it does now if they were depending on (;~overnment rations entirely; but that is not true yet. So far as the mere feediiig them
is concerned they might as well be on a single section.
Q. But they do not depend now entirely upon rations?.
A. No, sir.
Q. N\rhat other resources have they for support?
A. Buffalo, antelope, deer, rabbits, ducks, and other small game of
one sort and another.
Q. llave you any means of estimating the amount of support derived
from the chase by the Indians you supply?
A. No, sir; only by deduction.  I know how much I give them, then
I can esti~nate how nearly that will conie to their actual subsistence.
Q. You give them a pound of beef and a pound of flour per day, do
you?
A. Not all of them.  I issue to those who are present  Iiidians who
are on the ground and call for rations get them.  If a band is away at
issue-time it does not draw, and that is quite often the case.
Q. You get provisions for that amount, do yol~ not?
A. No, sir; I get the largest appropriation I can on my part, and the
smallest Congress can give me on their part; and they do not determine
what they will give me by what I was obliged to use during the year
previous. They keep me depending on the deficiency apl)ropriation of
the following year.  I think that has been true with the Sioux people
every year since the Treaty. There may have been one year as au exception.           -
Q. Does not the Treaty of 186S require us to supply a pouiid of beef
and a pound of flour to each Indian over four years of age?
A. Yes, sir; but it has expired now for two years.
Q. ~~as the money appropriated to furnish that amount of beef and
flour up to the expiration of the four years?
A. I don't know, sir; that was before my time. I can easily flud how
much was appropriated for those ~ ears.  I don't suppose it was.
Q. llas that money been appr~~priated since the expiration of the
four years?
A. Not to that extent.
(?.For what number of Indian'; did you ask an appropriation with
which to purchase beef and flour, ~~r the curreiit year?
A. I think, 35,000. I ain ilot sure that in making the estimate I speci 
700
fled the number of Sioux. I esfimated on the experience of previous
year~, but not on the numbers of Indians.
Q.Suppose the whole tribe numbers 40,000, what percentage of the~
do yc n estimate would be more than four years of age?
A.That would be the merest guess on my part. I should say the
prop(irtion would not vary among them from that of an ordinary white
popn' ation.
Q.I)o you understand what the rule is in other populations?
A.No, sir.
Q.Well, now,Mr. Commissioner, suppose the population to number
40,000, and all to be four years of age and upward, and you nndertake
to furnish them each with a pound of beef and a pound of flour per day,
what sum of money would l~e required to do it at yonr present contract
prices )
A.My present compntation ia that my beef would cost me about
*2,000 a day, and my flour about the same. About *4,000 a day for
beef and flour, without allowing anything for the services of issuing
and carrying.
By Mr. ATHERT0N~:
Q.That would be *1,460,000 a year.
A.Yes, sir; about a million and a half a year.
By Mr. ll0wi::
Q.What is the appropriation for that purpose the current vear?
A.About $1,100,000. A portion of it must be expended for ~offee and
sugar. I have the transportation of co~ee and sugar to provide for.
Q.Why have you got it to provide for ~
A.The transportation appropriation is just half enough-not quite
half enough.
Q.The question I put to you is, why have you got to pro~~ide out of
this fi~nd for sugar and tobacco ~
A.Because I haven't any other fund.
Q.Why do yon furnish them sugar and tobacco?
A.To keep them good-natured.
Q.That is to say, you cut short their beef and their flour, which the
Treaty required to be furnished, and give them sugar and tobacco, which
the Treaty does not require?
A.No, sir; the Treaty does not require any now.
Q.Which the treaty required?
A.Yes, sir. It has not been in operation since I have been acting.
We are not governed by the Treaty at all now in these supplies. If you
mean the Indian Office when you ask what I have done, I will keep up
the personation, but I may not always be able to give a reason for what
the Indian Office has done in the past.
Q.llaven't you any other fund out of whi~h you do in fact purchase
tobacco and sugar?
A.Yes, sir. I have another fund that can be used for that, if it is not
required for anything else.
Q. Whatisthat?   -
A.What is called the Sioux Beneficial Fund.
Q.llow much is that?
A.I think I had *200,000 of that last year.  I am not sure whether
it was two or one.
Q.Is *1,100,000 the whole appropriation for feeding?
A.I think so, except when I get a deficiency appropriation.
Q.You have not this year? 
701
k. Not for this year, but I~had for last year.
Q. ~Vhat was the appropriation last year?
A. I think the same.
Q. N\~hat was the deficiency ~
A. One hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars.
Q. Haven't you this year an appropriation for transportation-?
A. Yes, sir; about half enough Q. An appropriation for transportation?
A. Yes, sir, about half enough; I have an appropriatioii for that Q. Excuse me: an appropriation for traiisportation which should be
added to the appropriatioii for purchases since you have included the
cost of transportation'?
A. No, sir; it should not all of it be included in that estimate, because
I have my annuity-goods to transport froin New York.
Q. N\~eIl, a part of it should be added.
A. I am not sure whether it is not all exhausted in tlie other api)roj~riation; but I think not.  I think it might be taken out of the cost of
the flour.
Q. Or added to the appropriation either ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ~~hat is your appropriation for transportation?
A. I think it is $95,000.
Q. Seventy-five thousand dollars.
A. I thonght it was $95,000.
Q. Are you aware what the beef and flour n~tion of a United States
soldier is?
A. No, sir; it is more than an Indian's ration.
Mr. HOWE, (to the chairman.) Governor, you ki~ow.
The CHAIRMAN. N\re have got it in our testimony. I have forgotten
now just what it is.
Mr. ATHERTON. I thiiik it is a pouiid and a quarter of beef and the
same of flour; but I am not sure.
Mr. HoWE. It is a pound and a quarter of one or the other, and perhaps both.
N\?ITNEss. Then the soldier has beans and other articles.
By ~Ir. HOWE:
Q. ~Yell, I see by the Appropriation Bill, Mr. Commissioner, that the
appropriation was made for 3(),O()O instead of for 40,0()() Indians for this
current year?
A. As I stated, I did not lay any stress on the number, whatsoever,
but on past experience of cost, because I was not going by the Ti-eaty,
but by necessity.
Q. ~Yould not their necessities depend entirely 011 their numbers?
A. Ijudge of the necessities this year on what it proved to be last
year, and then I regarded it as necessary that coffee, sugar, and bacoii
should come in; they woul~l very largely in(~rcase the amount; then
there is expense for services of empl~v~s aii~l others, so that you caii
hardly figui-e upon the basis of a i)ound of in eat and a pouiid of flour
for each individual.
Mr. HAPRIs. These two articles would cost more th;~n you have
money for.
By Mr. IlOWE:
(~.But if two pouiids of beef a 1(1 two poutids of flour were s(inaiidered
o~ each iiidividual per day liSt year, you would not infer from that that
two pounds of each were nece~s'irv this year ~ 
702
A. No, sir.
Q. Is this number, 30,000, the number givei) by you to the Committee
on Appropriations ~
A. I presume it went into my estimates.  It is the stereotyped form of
estimate, that has been kept up for a long tiii~e, never varying except,
as to the amount of figures, and I presume th~~ is the form that I gave.
Q. Well, Mr. Commissioner, in submitting your estimates to Congress,
would you adopt a stereotyped number of Indians, or would you refer
to your own census of the Indians ~
A. I have to say, respecting that estimate of last year, it was made
up during my absence, and went to the Secretary without my revision.
Quite a number of things in it ought not to have been in the form they
were, although there was not anything that brought loss upon the Government, but the form of the estimate is not, in quite a number of cases,
a proper one. I have been over my estimate this year with~reference to
those particulars, quite carefully.
Q. llave you estimated the number of Indians ~is year larger than
30,000?
A. Yes, sir; I think I put it in 40,000.
Q. Were you not in the llouse of Representatives and the Senate
pending the passage of this bill?
A. I was in the Senate.
Q. Did you make any suggestion that the number was too low?
A. No, sir; because the number, in my opinion, was not of particular
consequence. I did not estimate upon the number; I could have expressed my judgment fully as well without saying anything about
the number. I was asking for a certain amount of money because I
thought I needed it; not because of the numbers, but because I knew
what had been done with the money previously. My annual report to
the Secretary shows between 34000 and 40 00
number.,,  0, as my estimate of the
Q. Well, on the whole, Mr. Commissioner, I understand you to be of
the opinion that this large domain now included within the Sioux reservation is essential to that people to enable them to eke out a subsistence by the chase?
A No, sir; I would not say that.  I think there is a very large portion of it th~t is too poor even to furnish anything for the chase, and
they could spare that very well.
Q. You believe that all the valuable portion of it is essential to them?
A. No, sir; I would not say that, either.  I say they make use of any
portion of it that furnishes game, and a use that is necessary, unless
the Government is prepared to give them full rations every day.
Q. Well, if the Government should assume to give full rations every
d~y to all the Indians of that tribe who are now in communication with
you, what additional appropriations would you require?
A. I should say, if you mean to include coffee and sugar and tobaccoI am only guessing now-I should say two millions of dollars ought to
go for feeding alone. I can give you the exact cost at the present
prices, by reference to the amount of rations and the cost of each article.
Q. Iii your opinion, would it not be for the advantage of the Govern~nent to make that addition to this appropriation, and assume for the
present the whole charge for supporfitig those Indians in order to clear
them out from the western part of that Territory, and to get them into
a compact positioii where you could know just whom you had to feed
and whom you had not?
A. I have no doubt that it would. 
703
Q. Suppcse, then, the Government were to take that view of it, and
assume the obligafion, how long a time would elapse, judging from your
experience, before 100 sections of land would be actually occupied by
those Indians for agricultural purposes?
A. You mean 1O() sections actually under cultivation?
Q. Y~s; under cultivation.
A. That would depend entirely upon the good sense with which they
were managed.
Q. Judging from your best experience in managing them?
A. It is an estimate only, but I should put it at two tl~ousand years.
I mean if we are to go on according to our past experience at Red
Cloud agency.
Q. You say you have or~~ered these agents to incur no liability be
yoi~d the funds in their hands?
A. Or which they know to be at their disposal.  I sometimes notify
an agent, "There is to be expended at your agency this sum. Look
over your field, know what you have to do ai~d send me in your plan
for the year." And then this other order-" In no event incur liability
for your agency for this year to exceed this sum which has been named
to you." I am not able to carry out this strictly with the Sioux agen
cies, because I cannot determine beforehant! the needs of this large
tribe with any degree of definiteness. I have not got matters reduced
80 that I know what ought to be done this year here or there among the
seven agencies. I have to go along from month to mouth depending
upon the agents' estimates, and always cutting them down as low as I
can. But those ageitts have been given to understand that they can
not incur any liability without permission, unless they ltave funds in
their hands, or on the way to then~, of which they h;ive had notice.
Q. I do not understand that there is any exception, then, to the
order as you stated it?
A. No, sir; I fliink it is substantially as you represented it.
Q. ~~hen was that new law adopted by you?
A. It has always been a standing order of the Bureau that an agent
should not inctir liabilities; and yet the agelits have done so without
being called to acconut for it until I made the order more stringent and
brought them to it.
Q. ~Vhen did you make the order more stringent?
A. A year ago. Then about ten months ago, I thiiik, the order went
out as a general order. I had writtei} to individual agents at different
times calling their attentiou'to the niatter; and theii I made a general
order, and had a circular sent out.
Q. You will furnish us a copy of that order?
A. Yes, sir.
[A copy of the order iii question was aflerward produced as follows
[CIRCULAR.]
DEPAIt~MENT ()F TII~ INTrItIOlI
0~FICE ()F lNI)IAN A~r~i~~
1~tishington, D. C., October 16, 1~74.
By the sixth section of the Indian appropriation act, approved June`22, 1S74, it is direcied that "no expenditure shall he made or liability inci'rred on tiie part of the Governinent on account of the Indian service for the fiscal year ending June:~, t(~75, (unless in
conipliance with existing law.) beyond tlie amount of moucy pieviously t~ppropriated for
said service during said year."
In oider to enable the Department to carry the above provisions into e~fect, a~l agent.
~nd disbursing officers co~iuected with this Bureau are hereby torbidd&n to t~ontract liabilit es on account of the service of their r(-spectivc agencies, unless such agent lias funds at 
704
lils disposal appicahie for payment of the same, and has also received special authority for
such procedure from this Office.
A practice is found prevailing among some of the agents of issuing, without autbt~ty,
certified vouchers, to he presented hy the holders to this Office for payment.  This pra~tice
must cease, and in no case must a certified voucher be given except upon special intruclions from this Office.
~WD. P. SMITH,
Commissioner.
Q. That order, as I understand you, was not a new order, but a re~issue
of an old order?
A. I don't know whether there ever had been a circular-order to that
effect; but, so far as I can find from Office correspondence, it was the Unders~aiidiiig on the part of the Bureau previously. I didn't suppose I
was issuing a new order, but calling the attention of agents sharply to
what they ought to have known, and probably did know before.
Q. Well, is that the law of the Department flow, that no agent can
incur any debt against the Government?
A. Not properly.
Q. Can he at all~
A. Yes, sir.  lle can buy one hundred bushels of corn if be can get
anybody to trust him as an Indian agent?
Q. And if he buys one hundred bushels of corn, will the Government
be bound to pay for it I
A. No, sir, not in law; though I think the Goveriiment would be
bound in equity; that is, if the agent, as a representative of the Government, goes to a farmer, and calls for one hundred bushels of corn, I
think the Government should pay the farmer, and deal with the agent
afterward.
Q. ~~ell, I understood you to say to the chairman that you thought
that tlie credit of the Department was dei)reciated by the existence of
old debts unliquidated.
A. Yes, sir.
(~.And you thought it was the duty of Congress to provide for the
payment of those debts in order to improve the credit of the agents I
A. Yes, sir; and I also think it should be done in order to satisfy
those just claims.
Q. If the debts are due they ought to be paid.  I don't suppose there
would be any difference of opinion among honest men about that; but
if the agents are iiistructed by you not to empl~y their credit at all, and
they do employ it, would it not be to the advantage of tlie Government
to depreciate the claims?
A. No, sir; but to dismiss the agents.
Q. If the agents were dismiss~d others would have to be apl)oiiited.
A. Dismiss and appoiiit until agents could be found who would obey
orders.
Q. if tl~e agent ought iiot to employ his credit, what is the use of his
having it?
A. He ought not to have any occasion for credit.
(~.He is tol(l by you, as I understand, that he has no occasion for
credit ~
A. Yes, sir; atid yet, in the exigencies which come in tlie wild country, aiid oftetier when you are dealiiig with wild nien, there ~i~'i~ be a
tiiiie when an agent nee~ls to use his credit. Then lie would be justified
ill takitig the responsibility of violating tlie order  bn~ I would not lay
~`i~~ great stress on that.
(~.You dotit lay any great stress oti what? 
t()5
A. Oii that statein~ut, that there aic occasiojis when he needs and
I~gitiiiiately can seek cre~lit even under this eider.
Q. \Vell, if von know there are such cases, when lie can empl~v~hi4
credit, and inust eii~j~Ioy his cre~lit,`t~~ YOfl ((iii~e jnstitied iii
~lown a l('i'v to say lie shall not ein~~loy his credit
4 ~Vell, I doii~t know that, nnder all the circallistances, the order
sheuld be juexorable.  I know there have been and niay be again cases
of emergency rendering it necessary for t[ie igent to ein;~loy his credit,
and tlie safest way is to put him upon his own responsibility, if he must
ViOltte the order.
(? I understand you to say you have not monQv enough appropriated
this year to feed the Sioux, aiid that in December you will be out of
iLioney.
A. Oli, no, sir; when I bring the Sioux Indiaiis, in December, down
to the money that belongs to December, it won't sUl)ply theni  and a
law of Congress obliges me to spend tlie money pro ra~ta throughout the
year.
Q. N\~hat do you niean by pro rata?
A. A twelfth of the qualitity for each niouth, unless it is nnderstood
thit some months will require a less quantity than other niontlis.
(~.~Vhat law do yon refer to?
A. It is a I)rovision in the Appropriation ~ill of ]ast year.
(? ~~hy should the Indians require more of it in December than in
No~ember?
A. I put tlie nionth of December as an example; they will not, unfess
it is colder, and they get less game, or for Sonie reason of that sort; and
I put it so far off, because now I am not able to uiidertake the pro rata
rate with them during the;ittempt to liegotiate with them, when I have
to keep them good.nature~ at all haz;irds.
Q. ~Vhat is it you are doing to keep them good-natured at all hazards?
A. Giving them all thQv want to eat and drink.
Q. Regardles5 of the law you have just sloken of?
A. It is linliossible for me now to l)ut that requileinent in force; for
instance, at Red Cioud ageii~v the nniiiber lias very largely ilicreased.
I eanilot say to tlie agent how much lnoiiey he can speild; and I don't
waiit to raise th;tt question among liis Iii{liaiis until he gets tlirongh
with this council; because I waiit liiin to do ill lie can to keel~ the Indians ~00d~natured; so I take the risk.
Q. Just what risk is it that you are takiiig?
A. To exceed the power given me iii the ApI)ropriation Bill. I ani
using more than one twelfth of my fuiid for this month.  I suppose,
and as I understand from the communications of inspectors, this whole
Black Ilills business, which has broken iii ul)on the Sioux I)roblem this
year ~~expectedly, has created an exigeiiQv which will j0St~fjv a necessity
for deficiency appropriation.  The expense of your coilimission and the
exl)ense of the Black II ills coiiiiaissioI1~tlie l;itter involves nie in a
ltrge uliexpected expendituic, in calliiig those Inditus hid makiiig purchase of horses.
Q. ~Vhat purchase of horses.~
A. One hundred horses thit Sen;itor Allisoii, chairman of tlie Sioux
coin mission, telegra~~he~ for tlie other day.  Tho~e exl)enditiiies are
using Ul) tlie fuiid which Congress atiI)r)priated ibr tlie benefit of the
Sioux; tlie Sioux Beneficial Fu ii (I.
(2 Then it is not usilig up the $1,IOf),oOO?
A. No, s~r; but that y~l,I()O,OoO woii't keep the SiQUX at all.  I put my
cieficial fund in also, and with all the money I have got 1 cannot give
45 1 F 
70(3
rations to the Siotix.  I have not got enough to keep them tl1rou~i the
year, iii my best judgn~ent.  And, in a~ldition to tiiat, I have this Unexpected large expetise of this Black IIilis busine~s.
(? Yon (lid not exi)ect that the expense of the Black II ills negotiation
was going to create a very great deficiei'cy?
A. In the first place those Sionx, between thirty and forty of them,
were brought to ~Vashington. You caiiiiot move thirtyilvelndians and
take care of them two m~~utiis without expense. Then all those cornmissioners have gone out, the Indiaiis have been called to a general
rendezvous, and l)re5ei)ts have beeii made to them. I don~t know what
it will all anooniot to.  It will be a very considerable snin for me to spare,
when I liavn't any to spare.
Q. ~Vell, what you menu by deficiency, then, is the 511111 occasioned
by these extraor(~iliary expeiiditures?
A. Yes, sir; it is aii unexpected expenditure, and there will be a deficieiicy occasioned by it. Tlieii I tliiiik there will necessarily be a
deficieiocy occasioned by givilig the Sioux eiiough to keel) theni from
disturl~ance; at least to ke~I) them froni hunger, certaitily eiiough to
keep theiu fiom coniplaiiits, such as eveii Professor ~Iarsh did not hear
w 10 en lie was out there iii that siiow-storiii.
Q. You said to ~Ir. Faulkiier that yon considered your agricultural
experiiiients with tlie Sioux so far a failure ~
A. ~~ell, he confined liis inquiry to the Red (?loud aiid Spotted Tail
ag&ncies. ~iy aiis'ver would be materially modified if I in~luded the
other Sioux agelicies.
Q. is your experience with ~~ed (Cloud and ~potted Tail agencies a
failure?
k A fail tire, if raisilog a crop is tlie staiidard of soiccess. But if
inakioog a begiuniiig is tlie standard, it is all that aiiy reasonable man
could have expected iii the circumst'inces.
Q. ~Vhat begiiiniiog have you made with those ageiicies?
A. I have got tlieiii so that some of them ask for plows, and, as I understaiid, a few of them have taken out a small ditch and commenced
planting a little.  I doii~t know whether more than half a dozen of the
Indians have done that.  I suppose more of the hal f- breeds have done
it than of the lii 11-bloods.  Last year was the first year when anything
of the sort could have been done. It was physically impossible to undertake much, certainly, with the Spotted Tail ind i~ed Clou(l Indians
until they got where they are now.
Q. ~Vhy more practicable now than while they were at other places I
A. Heretofore Spotted Tail loas been on aii alkali barren, where there
was no water even to dig out for irrigation.
Q. Are you well assured that liis present location is more favorable
for agricultural J)~~l)O5C5 than lois former locatiotis have been?
A. I am only assured so by the persotis who loeate~l them, and by the
agent.
Q. Your ageiit has so informed you
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what respect does be ascribe gre;tter advatitages to the present
location?
A. In that he is iii a country where there are patuhes of ground that
are susceptible of cioltivatioti.
Q. Is there more water there than he had when he was on the NYhite
i~iver?
k I uuderstand,it is more cal)able of ditching than where he was
before.  A stream of water runloing between high baiiks is generally of
110 uSC for ditching. 
7U7
Q.llow long has i~ed Cloud been at his pr~sent`i~~~~~ ~
A.Two years.  This is his second suLilmer.
Q.N\~here was he formerly located ~
A.Down towards the PlLtte, and near Fort Laramie.
Q.Are you assured that his preselit location is more avaii~~l~le fbr agric~ultural purposes than the old location was?
A.No, sir; I dont know much about the old location in that resj)ect.
All that matter was discussed before I kiiew anything about it.  The
l~reliminaries of removal were gone through before I came ilito office.
I am not acquainted with the country lie left.
~? You say he was moved two years ago`?
A.Yes, sir; two years ago.
(~. You have been Coiuniissioner how long?
A.Two years.
Q.You siy the beginning which ha~ l~eeii ma~ie by these b;inds in agricnl~ttril pursuits was iii asking you for l~lows.  lilve you furnished any
l)lows?
A.Yes, sir; I think the agent has got some plows  iii ore especially
for the hal f- breeds.
(~. You don't know that he lias fiiriiished Indians with any i~lows?
A.I tllii)k he has.  Personal owiiership of a plow is not a necessary
prerequisite for Indian ~~lanting. The agent can 1)10w for those who
want to begiii to flirni.  I think some of Spotted T;iil's Indiaiis have
plows, however, but I am not cert;~in.  They talked about it fiequently
iii their interviews with me this summer; of course it was the talk of
children, who knew very little of what they were saying, but it shows
the dawning of an idea of civilized life.
(?. In speaking about that Appleton contract for sawilig lninber I understood you to say that Doctor Saville's explanation modified your views,
especilily as to the merits of the contract?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.That you don't think Doctor Bevier gave a fair statement of the
contract?
A.No, sir; if Doctor Saville's statement is trne, (and it seems to me
quite piobable,) then it was not fair in Doctor Bevier not to have taken
that into coiisideration.
Q.~~~hat are those facts which he ought to have taken into coiisideration, in yonr judgment?
A.That the mill was a crippled affair, only fifteen borse-power any.
how, (that is my recollection of it,) and breaking down frequeiitly at
that.  It was not capable of anything like a fair day's work for a sawmill.
Q.Can you explain how such a mill hii~~pencd to be located there?
A.I cannot; but it is one of the most natural things in tlie Indian
service, that with a short ap~)ropriatioIi you should get a cheap mill,
and that when run by incompetent hands such a mill should get badly
out of order.
Q.~Vas the appropriation for the purpose of tlie mill a short appropriation?
A.I presume there was no appropriation f~r tlie purpose of a mill,
but it was taken out of this Sioux Bcncfi~~ial I~un~l, or soin e other.
Q.Are you or are you not aware that the Treaty )f 1~(3S provided for
the erection of a mill?
A.Yes, sir; but that mill has never been erecte1 accordiiio- to the
Treaty.  Tlie money has been apj)r~}priated, but has iiever beeii used.
The suin of twenty-five thousand dolltrs was I)nt to t~ ere~lit of the In 
708
~Iiq~i Bureqil, 1)Ilt lias iiever b~en use~i because`ve have never been able
to locate the Ii~~li;~iis where the Treaty aud tlie apI)ropri<iti~n required
that nioucy to be cx pel (led.
Q. Thei~, do I nnderstai~~l yon to say ti~at, after tiie Treaty bad pro
~idcd for the location of a in ill and agency.buil(li'ig~ oti one pi;ice, aiid the
appropriation was made to meet tlie expenditure, you (lid not niake the
expenditure, but you did t('tkC from another fuiid appropriated to another purpose
~. No sir; I l~eg your partloi~-beiieflcial purposes
Q. That y()'u (li(l t;ike fi~()Ii0 a fun~l ai)l)roi)riate(l for benefl~iil purpbses a sniheicut sum to build aii in(~onipeteiit nijil
k. No  I di(l not itiake tl~at stateineiit, at least not in that form. In
the first l)lace, I don~t kiiow aiiytliin~ about it from aiiy peisonal ex- -
amination.  I oiily said, ~~robably, (aiid that would be (rom my acquaintance with tlie ~)a11'i~CmCnt of affitirs,) that fl~e agent who wanted the
mill would get the best mill he could out of the money for that yearout of the money the Otii(~C informed him be could use for that purpose,
a~d the Office would give him such money as it could spare for that l(ur~~ose, and no more.  This mill was i)urcliased before I caine into office.
Q. Aiid you judge that was tlie aetuLi course of administration, from
your general kiiowledge of tl~e adinii~istration of aflairs in that office I
A. Yes, sir; the fact is, the Indian Oflice is always on short allowance.
~~e almost never do what we want to, but what we can atid must; we
can not often do what would be the reasonable, econoniical, right thing
to (10 if a man was doing it for himself
Q. Do you know what that beneficial flind has beeii in former years ~.
A. It is fixed by treaty.
(~.It has been previously ~-2OO,()OO a year~
A. I thiiik so.
Q. Do you thiiik it woul(l have been better economy to have tal~en
enough from that fund to 1)ut up a good mill
k If he could
(~.Aiid used less of it for oilier purposes, than to have taken a sin alL
mill that was not worth aiiything ~
A. That depeiids upon what tlie other ~oecess~ry ~)urposes were at that
tiiioe.  It is a questi()Ii of ~oinparativ~ necessity of doiiig soiiiethiiig that
noust be done,;in~I doing it as well as you can with what fuiods you have
left for it.  I should say tli~it if you iiiust have a in ill an~l have not funds
for a Iar~e one, it would be a good thitig to buy a small otie.
(?~. II~ive you 100 i~lea as to what that mill did cost actually I
A. No, sir  I presume it Cost fully what it was worth.
(~.~Voiild the records of your otlice enable yoii to state I
A. I)robably tlie cost of first l)urchase will be found there, but that
will ~iepend ul)on how it was lOut ill).  If oii c~oiitract, the whole cost
will be easily fouii~i  otherwise it inay be quite difficult to get the whole
cost without goiiig tl~roiigli`ill tlie agency-accounts of that quarter.
~).(Jan you conceive ol l)iit iii words aiiy possible justification for an
agent speu~liiig;iuytliiiig f~~r ilie erection of a iiiill which when up and
the engineer sui)I)lied ~aiinot get out luinb~r for less than $14 a thousand ~
A. Yes, sir; I caii coiiceive liow a mill might be purchased and be a
good purchase, and a goo~l noill for the required use aiid then be so
wretchedly used for two or three years as not to be able to do anything,
not to be able to cut luiiiber short of $100 a thousand.  I do iiot want
at all to be nioderstood as justifying the Appleton coiitract; I annulled
it immediately on the Inspector's report. 
7O\)
Q. ~Ir. Commissioner, the Treaty of lS6S provided that the United
St~tes should furnish a pound of beef and a i)ouud of flonr daily to
thos( Sioux Indians.  I understand it is the ensto;n of the agencies, instead of delivering beef, to deliver beef-cattle o'i the foot ~
~. Yes sir.
~?- Can yo'l state what is tlie ori~in of that 11~age?
A. I suppose it dates back to the tiiiie of huntii~g bufl)-tlo.  That is
tl~e Iiidian custom that req tired it, and which belongs to lii~ life of the
cha~e.  The Treaty evidently refers to beef on the block.  The wild In~liaii snys he wants his beef oil the hoof.  So a cornputatioii was made
ffo~n ilet to gross, and he is huuiore~l.
(~.lJi~~e you evidence tli;tt the Sioux Indiaiis require their beef dclivere~i to tlieni on the hoof
A. Ye.~, ~ir.
~? Itow does that evidence co;ne to you?    -
A. They h;tve 1u~tde their request t[ieniseives.  I under~ook to break
it ~I) at Clieyeiine agency, on the ~1issoun River, atid the ageilt has been
in a fight about it ever since; and one of their most serious grievances
which they required should be redressed at their visit here last spring,
and as Lone Horn told me tlie priiicipal occasion for their coming, and
wliicl~ almost broke his heart that he did not get, was that his agent
killed liis cattle for hiin, instea~l of turning theiii over to the Indians
for them to ~hoot, as they had always doiie.
Q. Hive the I~ed Cloud aiid Spotted Tail b~intls iu~ide similar demands tipoji you ~
A. They have not, but they would undoubtedly if I should undertake
to biing them to take beef from the block.  This lias not beeti attempted
there yet.
(~.J)() you consider that a wise distribution of tlie fuiids?
A. Yes, sir.  I think, as far as the freding-fund is concerned, tlie cost
of butchering would equal, if not exceed, the savitig iu meat.  If you
keep iii Iii~liau hungry, he does not lose niuch meat, no matter how he
gets it.  But there is a barbarisut about this mode of killing which the
bloeL- would prevent  and, besides, tlie block would 1)ut an additional
check upon the cotitractor, which is desirable.
Q. Does not the Itidian, when you deliver him beefeattle instead of
beef, get either less beef than lie is eiititle~l to, or d~ii~t lie get something,
such as the hide and tlie tallow of the aiiitn'il ~`
which lie is iiot entitled to?,  hich are not beef and
A. Yes, sir.  I don't kiiow but he might; biit that is given to him by
weight.  He takes it in lieu of nicat.
~ Q. ~Vell, if the value of the hide an~l tallow is deducted from the
weight, then tlie Indit!i loses necessary food, ~loes lie hot?
A. No, sir; tlie tallow is worth moic to hiiu for f~)od by the pound
than the beef.
Q. Does he use it for food?
A. Yes, sir.
~&~ Does he use the hide for food?
A. He sells it to the trader in exchange for other thitigs that he wants.
(~.D~}es he use the hide for food?
A. If lie gets food bv exchange, he does.  He does iiot eat tlie hide.
().Theji the value 0r the hi ic, or tiie weight of the hide, is deducte~1
ji~otii ttie fi)od which he needs
~. I doii't know as it is deducted froiu that which lie iieeds.  He is
stiposed to get what he needs to eat at 111 haz'tr~ls: lie has no claim
by ~i'e'ity for aiiythiiig to eat. 
710
Q. Not 100W?
A. No..~ir.
Q. But be had`.
A. lle cannot enforce his pound of beef.
Q. lle [`ad a claim before the four ~-ears exi)ired?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he has still what is equivaletit to his claim, ai~d better than
his claim, if I understand you, and that is our obligafion to furnish him
enough to eat; that if he don~t get it out of ~l,l0(),00(), he has to have
more.
A. No, sir; he has not our obligation for anything except to make
him behave and mLke a inan out of him, if we can.
Q. No; but if the ~l,1OO 000 which we have gratuitously appropriated
does not support him, you will ask Congress to appropriate more money?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you will ask it upon the ground tbat tbe Government ought
to appropriate more.
A. Yes, sir; from a moral point of view, and for reasons of economy
in controlling the Sioux.
Q. Of course. Now, in addition to the meat we have actually paid for,
we shall furiiisli him, under this year's contract, with 30,000 hides, shall
we not?
A. I sboi~ld guess more than that.
Q. Which he cannot eat at all.  llave you any information as to what
disposition the Indians make of those bides?
A. The Indian claims tbe bide as his perquisite.  lle takes it, as I
understand, to the trader, and drives the best bargain he can in exchange.
Q. Do you understaiid what kiiid of a bargain he drives
No, sir.
Q. Do you know wl~at would be the market-value of those hides which
be claims as a perquisite.
A. I do not.
Q. Would it be less t]iaii.~5?
A. Oh yes; about.~1.50 or.~2.
~Ir. FAULkNER. I can state the ftct positively that they h;~ve sold
them at the agency for ~3, aiid the trader reports that lie gets $7) to $6
apiece for the~n, but he has to perform upon them some labor.
WITNLss. There is another coiisideration about these hides that I
may mention.  The whole policy of feeding the Sioux has been on
the idea that the Government has been disposed to temporize with them,
gratify them, -keep them good-natured, keep them quiet as at least the
cheapest way of dealiiig with them for the present, aiid this use of hides
is a very gratifying one to them, so that it is as a sort of 501) thrown to
a wild aninial, just as a considerable amount of other expeiiditures that
we have been making for Indians lias been.
By ~1r. llARRIS:
Q. ~lr. Commissioner, oiie topic more, and that is about the educatioii
of the Sioux Indiaiis ~  \Vhat steps have been taken to promote their
education?
A. Until quite recently, with the exception of two of the bands, nothing deserving the name.
Q. ~~hat two?
A. Those are the Yank tons and San tees.
Q. What have you done for the education of those two tribes?
A. The Government has done much less for them than the mission aries. 
711
Q. I was speaking of the Government.
A. The Government has expended the amonnt named in the Treaty,
which I don't recall now, upon the i)~issioI0ary societies furnishing
teachers, or paying salaries of the teachers which those societies fnriiished. But there is a i)rovision in the treaty for tlie pay of five teachers, or a provision that those teachers sliall be furnished.
Q. Th~re is no special piovision for educational uses a!nong those, is
there?
A. Yes, sir five teachers, the ai)propriation is made for.
Q. P~ead it.
A. For pay of physician, five te'~cher~, one carpenter, one miller one
engineer, one farmer, one blacksniith, $IU,4()()."
Q. ~Vhom is that for?
A. That is for eleven employ~s named, but I don't know what portion
of this SUil) is for the teachers.
Q. But that appropriation is not made for the benefit of the Yankton
and Santee Sioux exclusively?
A. No, sir. You were speaking of the educational advantages; and
those five teachers, as I understand it, have been employed mainly
among the Yanktons and Santees, because the other bands were iiot
ready for teachers.  Five teachers are no~ enough for these seven Sioux
agencies.
Q. You have had, then, the five teachers so employed among those
two bai~ds.
A. I 5Ul)~05C so; that is according to the Treaty, and I suppose
service lias been performed.  I ain not speakiiig from the record.
Q. Do you know anything about the schools which have been maintained at these two agencies?
A. Yes, sir; I have been in some of them, and I have reports from
them regularly.  I knew about them two years ago.
Q. You visited them two years ago.
A. Yes, sir.
(~.Did you find five schools?
A. I think I found six.
Q. Five of them were kept by teachers pai~1 out of this fund ~
A. I thiiik they were all paid out of that fund, l)ut I am not sure.  A
single school may have three or fonr teachers. There must have been
at that time, including the missionary teachers, ten or twelve teachers
in these schools.
Q. liow many scholars did you find in attendance?
A. I am not able to state.
~~. Didi~'t you notice?
A. Yes, sir; but I don't remember.
Q. Did you notice anythiiig indicating the proficienQv they made ~
A. Yes, 5~r; I remember children reading and writing and working
examples in arithmetic.
Q. Indian children?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Of the full blood?
A. Full blood, speaking Luglisli.
IQ.You found that at those agencies'.
A. Yes, sir.
~L~ G~ould you say anything about the number?
A. [should say from 150 to 200.
(~.?~ading and speaking the Luglish laiignage?
A. ~o sir; I woul~ not say that. 
712
Q.  Could you say anything ab~ut tile number you found who could
read and speuk our language
A.  No, sir; I ought to say t~is: Not a great many were speaking the
Bnglish language, because the method of the m~ssionaries among them is,
I tbink, an unfortunate one; ti at is, teaching them maii~ly in their own
language. I Itave had an issue with the teachers on that. I want them
to teach Indian children tI~e Ei~glish language.
Q.  N\7hat is the fact? N\rhich language was taught in those schools?
A.  The Indian language was taught, and then as much English as
they could teach in connection with the Indian. But my theory was,
that they should teach the English language at any rate, and make the
Indian iiocidental to that.
By AIr. FAULKNLR:
(~. Is it iiot their plan to have the s~~hool-house divided ii) tO two
rooms, in one ot which they teach the Siou& language and tlie other
English I
A.  No, sir, I didn't notice that.
By AIr. floWF~:
Q.  Outside of those two agencies, I understand you to say that, until
recently, no attempt has been niade to advance them in civilization a?'
A.  No, sir; not of any consequence until of late. The Cheyenne agency,
I think, began a year or perhaps a year and a half ago; I don't kuow but
it was commendng when I was there, and at the Crow Creek agency
there have been attetnpts at schools. Day-schools have been kept for a
while, but, as a rule, are of very little value among wild Indians as
coin pared with boarding and maunal-labor schools.
Q.  ~Vhat movement has been recently set on foot to which you refer ~
A.  The Episcopal Church lias taken up the education of the Sioux
very receiitly and in a very practical way, under Bishop llar&s manageinent, and has eiitered into a contract to teach a certain number of
schools for so much per year at different points.
Q.  Entered into contrict with whom I
A.  ~Vith the Indian Bureau.
Q.  ~~hen was that co~itract made?
A.  There have been several made for tlie different points.  It htts
been running through the last year or more.
Q.  Are those contracts reduced to writing I
A.  Yes, sir; signed by both parties; signed by myself and by Bishop
flare as the represenhti~~ of the Ei~iscopal Church.
Q.  Can you furnish us copies of those contracts ~
A.  Yes, sir.
{\Vituess subsequently f~rnished the papers, as follows
5C11t)OI.5 AT MISSOURI RIVER AGENCIES.
This agreement, made and entered into at the city of ~Vashington, D. C., the 25tl~ day of
De~emher, 1S74, between Edward P. Sniith, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, for and ill helialf of the United States, of the first part, and ~~illiam H. Hare, bishop of Niobrara, of the
second part, witnesseth:
That the said party of the second part, for himse~f and bis legal representatives, hereby
covenants and agrees with the said party of the first part to take charge of and properly
carry on for the term of six months, commencing January 1, i(~5, and ending June 30,
1~75, the schools herejuafter designated, viz:
1'irst. A day-school at Chotean Creek, Yankton Indian reservation, Dakota, with an average attendance of twenty-five ()5) pupils.
Second. A girls' hoarding-school at Yankton Indian agency, Dakota, with from fifteen
(15) to twenty (20) hoarders. 
7~3
Tl~ird. A day.sclioo} on the Yank ton Indian reservation, at Swans, Dakota, with an avera~e of' twenty-five (25) pit pils.
Fonrth. A day~scli~ol at Pon~a reservation, Dakota, with an average of twenty (20) pupils.
Also, at tie Upper ~Iissonri or Crow Creek Indiai~ reservaton, Dakota, the following
schools, viz
1~irst. A day. school at Lower Can~p. with an average of fifleen 15) pupils.
~econd A girl's boarding-school at thu agency tor tcn (11?) rlt~~lars.
`fltird. A day'schooi at tlte Upper Can~p. with an average of' fift'ett ( IS) pitp:,l~,
1'onrth, A boarding anti day school at Clteyentte Rtver Itidian rc~urv,'ttioit. 1).'tk~~ta.
`lite ~aid psrty of tlte second part further a~rees to fitrnt~lt  iii table teacher  for all  lie
schools named, to flirnisli fuel, &c~, for tite day-scitotils, atid fuel and c)otliittg titr tit scititlars,
tind everything ticcessary atid reqttisite for tite cotafort and health of flic schitlars, and to
poiperly conduct the boarditig-schools.
`I' be party of the first part agrees to pay or cau~e to be paid to tite party (if lie secotid tart,
or to his legal representatives. for rite faithful performance on bi, part of thc stiltitlations of
tit) agr~entetit, as followA, ViZ
For tite Clioteati Creel'. day-school, fbi-ce hundred (.00) doll;irs in honey, atid for each
scholar one daily ration of beef.
lor Yankton aency boarding-school five hundred (500) d~tllars.
For lay-school at Swans, Yaitktoti reservatioti, three hundred t,~~0) doll;trs iii money, and
for each scholar one daily ration of beef.
For day-school at Poncti res~rvation, three hundred (~0~f) dollars in utuney. arid for each
scholar one daily ration of beef.
For day-school at Lower Camp. Upper ~Iissonri Ii~dittn resirvation, three htindied (:300)
doilars in money, and for each scholar one d'tily ratiitii of ituef.
For girls' boarding-~cbool at the Uji1ier ~Iissonri or Crow Creek tigeticy, foor hundred
(4i~0) dollars.
For day-school at Upper Camp. on the Upper ~1issonri or Crow Creek reservatiolt, three
hnndred (:~0) dollans in money, and for each scholar one d:tily ratiott of beef.
For hoarding atid day school at Cheyenne River reservation, tour butidred (400) dollars iii
money, and for each scholar one daily ration of beef.
The said sums of money are to he paid in two equal payment~. to wit: One-half on tite
1st day of April, l~75, and one-half on tbe 30th day of June, 1~75  tite rittititis to he frirnished by tite respective agents on the reclnisition of the party of the second part.
I' lie said parr)- of the second pttrt agrees to turitisit tite party of tiie first part at ttie etid of
each niouth with a report showing the nttmber ot scholars in atteitdaiice at each school,
their progress, and the condition and prospe'3ts of the schools generally.
It is mntnally agreed between the patties he,reto that upon tlte e,xpira,tion of the provisions
of this agree nient, the same may he e.vtended for the further period of one year, tii)OU the
same terms arid rates of itayment.
Each party reserves tiie right to terminate tit is agreement at tiny time after giving tiie
other party, or his representatives, thrie mouths' itotice.
In`vititess "`hereof tite parties it ereto itat-e herertuto set their hands atid seals the day and
year above writteit.
LD\Y. P. SMITh,           [~F.iI. 3
(`otttotissitterr Inditin ifibirs.
~V1LL1A.M H. lIARE,       [~~4L. 1
Bisho)? of A')obrcira.
In presence of
HENRY ST. GEoE('.E YOt'Ni..
JoFiN ~V KENNEitY.
DL-PARTN.tv.N'i' (if ~`lir' INfERIOR,
Jo artery i';, i~7s.
The action of the e~'ectifive comittittee is hereby stistttined.
C. DELANO, ~ccrctery.
DElAlETMENT (if TilE INTERIOR.
()t'f icE IN tItAN AfFAIR.~,
Approved.                                                   January 15, 1S75.
ED~v. P. SMITFI,
Corn missioner.
LitARit OF I~rti~N Ci)~.1NII~~iONEE~.
I!'as1ttn~ton, L). C., Jartitery 10, J-~75.
Examitied and ~~~provt.d.
F. II. S~.IITll.
~VM. S'1'JCKNEY,
Ert-cutire Coflt?aittec. 
7i4
(`IlOOLS AT Jl'()TTED TAIL AND RED (JI~OUD A( ENt~lL'S.
This agreement, made and entered into at tlie city of ~ashing~on, D. C., 29th day of
~iarch, 1~75, between Edward P. Smith, Comn~is~ioner of Indtan Affairs, or atid on behalf
~if the United States, party of the first part, and ~Villiam 11. Hare, ~ ishop of Niobrara, party
of the second part. witnesseth
The said party of the second part, for himself and itis legal representatives, lierehy covenants and agrees with the said party of tlie first part to take charge and properly carry on
the schools hereinafter designated dutitig tite tinie designated, all of sai'l schools bein  in
Nebraska atid Dakota. and for the betiefit of the Itiditin children thereof, to wit
A day-school at Batins point of timber, Yankton reservation and about five miles helow the agency. for the term of eighteen months from January 1, 1~75, utitil July the 1st,
l.~6(3, (said school bei'tg now and having been in cintinnous`~peratiiin tinder the charge of
and at the e~.pen~e of said ~V. H. Hare from  said Jaitnary 1st, l~75,) with an average attendance of twenty-five (25) scholars.  All the following schools for the term of one year
from July the 1st.  "75, until July the 1st, l~7(
First. -~ day-school at Spotted Tail agency, with an average attendance of seventy scholars.
Second. -~ day-school at the Red Clond, with an average attendance of twenty-five
scholars.
Third. -~ d~y.chool at Lower Brttl6, with an average attendance of twenty-five scholars.
The party of the second part fnrther agrees to flirni~h suitable teachers for all the schools
named, and fuel and all things necessary and requisite for carrying on the same.
The party of the first part hereby agrees to pay or cause to be paid to the said party of
the second part. or to his legal representative tbr the faitltful perforotance on his part of the
stipulations of iii is a~reemeitt, as follows
The dny.school at~l~atin~s point of timber, Yanleton reservation, nine hundred dollars in
money, in six equal payntents of one hundred attd fifty dollars each, payable quarterly thereafter at the time of the re~ular quarterly payments to agency employcs, and one daily ration
of beef for each scholar.
For the day-school at Spotted Tail agency, one thousand dollars in money and one daily
ration of ~eef for each scholar.
For the day-~cliool at Red Cloud agency, six hundred dollars in money and one daily ration
of beef for each scholar.
For tite day-sebtiol at Lower Brule, six hundred dollars in money and one ditily ration of
beef for each scholar.
The said sums of nioney for tite last three schools, at Spotted Tail, Red Cloud, and Lower
Bruli. are to be paid in fo'tr equal payments of five httndred aiid fifty dollars each  payable
i~itarterly thereatter at the time of lie regular quarterly payment to ageticy employes   and
tite beef rations are to l~e furnished by the respective Indian agents oji the requisition of the
party of the second part or his legal representatives and from tlie openiiig ot th seliool.
The party- ot the secon'~ part also agree to furttish tlie~party of tlte fir.~t part at tlie end of
each mon tit a re1)ort — bowing the number of scholars in attendance at each school, their progress and condition. and tite prospects of tite school generally.
Each party re~erves ~he right to terminate tit is agreentetit at any time after giving the
other party or hls r~presetttatives three moittlis' notice, afti~r which terotination all rights or
obligations ititrlng tli~-reatter tijider Site citutrict shall cease.
In witness wlie'eof ilie parties hereto have licixuitto set their hands and setils tite day- and
year above written.
i.D~V. P. SMITH.
~ViLLIANI H. IlAFE.
~~~itiiees to Ed'v. P..~mitb
Jotix H Vtii)tiIlLLs.
~Vitness to ~V. II. Hare
S.-`1. ~lii.t.t;ii.
L()ARt) oU INDIAN Co~.I~Its.~It)N~Rs,
I~osIiington, May.~, lr;75.
Exaittined an?' a~ipr~vcd.
F. II. SMITH,
~VM. SFlCKNEY,
Ifrecutire C~tneiittee.
DEi~ART~IF.NT (iF TilE INTE
-Ilay IS, 1s75
`l~lte action ut tite exe~iit~ve cotititi it~e is here~ty sttstaiut-d.
1)'. l~'. (?i~\VEN
.jttia  Neertiry.
~r~. Ht)~~-E. ~`1tttt is all,?\Ir. (?ii1III10issioI1(~r.
N\~ITNESS. I hive thought of a fli(~ttt~F th;tt I Il~ig1tt have state~~ ill 
7t5
connection with the question of the treaty stipulation that tbe Indians
should be moved to the ~1issouri River. ~Iore than half those 1i~dians
that made that Treaty are on the ~Iissouri, and have beeii settled there
ill pnrsuance of the treaty.
By Mr. floWE:
Q.Let me ask you this question  Supi)ose you liad said, or your
predecessor had said, to the ~ioux Natioii,  Your oblig;itioii is to eorn~
to the Mi~souri River and be counted  aiid when you will come to the
Missouri River aiid be counted we will feed you according to the stipu
lation of the Treaty, and not until then," what would have hal)i~cned`~
A.They would not have come.
Q.~Vould ilot ai~y of them have come?
A.Yes, sir: a few would have come at first; not many; and others
when they got very hungry in the wiuter, wotild have come over and
asked for ratioiis.
Q.But if they did not come?
A.They would have gone south, dowii iii ti~e buffalo couiitry on tlie
Republican Fork, and lived off buffilo and oft. the citizens of Katisas
and Nebraska?
Q liow loii~ would they have lived there?
A.Until this tinie, unless the soldiers had got after tlteiii, and then
there would have been a fi~ht with the whole Sioux Nation.
By Mr. ATllLRTON:
Q.~~e found at Red Cloud, ~Ir. Commissioner, that there were about
~5,UO() in aii~ount of vouchers outstanding for obligations which had
been incurred in the erection of agency buildings. ~\Yhat explanation
is to be~given of that?
A.I doii't know, sir; except that the buildings had to be erected.
Q.I mean of the fact that the payments have not been made.
A.That there was not money enough in the appropriation of that
year to meet this balance due. I caniiot pay with the money I have now
in hand for liabilities incurred then.
Q.Is there no way of paying those outstanding vouchers except by
appropriation of Con~ress?
A.No, sir If I had plenty of moitey this year, I could itot use it for
that purl)ose.
Q.Since Dr. Saville has been there he has incurred an iiidebtediiess
of, I should say, (if my recollection serves me,) ~1,2OO or $~,()()O for hay
for the supj~ly of the agency.  ~Vas not there an approl)riation for that
at the time the debt was incurred?
A.I cannot say whether there was any appropriation for hay. It
would be deterinitied by how much moiiQv there was on hand.
Q.Then, with regaut to the mode of inspecting supi)lies. llow is the
I)resent mode of insl)ection determined?
A.Do you mean who determines it?
Q.Yes. Under what provision of law are goods now inspected?
A.They are inspected under my or~1er.
Q.And how is I)rovision made f~r that; is it simply an order of fl~e
Bureau, or is there a provision of law requiring the appointment of in
spectors?
A.No, sir; I ain not aware of a provisioii of law requiring the ap
pointnieiit of ii)spectors of good~.   I should say hat a treaty is in
fbrce and if the Indians cl;iiin it th&y ought to lta~ e it, an~l if it is for
their good. they ought to have it. 
71~
~?. Jf it is not for tI~~ir ~ood it ought to bu e~~for~~d uiitil it is superseded by otoer le~is1;itiou
A. No, sir; I wotild 1)f)t ptit it oil tl~e l~tter grouiid.  ~`h~~re ~re I1i('lfl~
stii)ulatioii~ iii tre~ties th;it iiever caii or ()ti,~Iit to be eni~i'ue(l.
(~.~~~e ~ouud there li;~d beei~ between tlie 1~nre,'jn aii~l;\Ir. ~l;~veii~, of
Kans-~s City, sonie difficulty iii regard to a poik-coiitr'ict.  ~Viil yon
state what that difhenlty w~'~5~ and liow it was settled?
A. ~fr. Slaveiis, in aiis'ver to ui~ c-ill for n~ess-pork, put iii a 1)id,`vbielt
was tiie lowest bid, at 1 was aeeel)ted.  ~~~heu tlie cotitract was (IU'i~Vfl,
it -~l)eeified l)ork oiily did not s;ly n~ess~pork.  ~~~heii tlie contract caine
to be filled, ~Ir. Sla"ens t~eg;in to fill it with mess-pot-k.  lie l)Ilt iii a~~
liis first ilelivery 2()() l~arrels of ni{'ss-pork of' excelletit qualit,v, as r ttnderstaii~l.  ~ul~sequeiitly, pork went np beyond his coiitract-l)rlce, and he
foni~d oil exau~ination thit the tern~s of his cotitract did not require
me-~s-pork, but that lie was required to give pork. lie then put up another
quality of' l)ork, and tlie iiisj)ect()r I)assed it on the coi~tract.  That is
liis explanarioti.  The ilispector certified that so many barrels of pork
hid been delived by Slavens  according to contract."  I heard of the
l~a~l quility of tiie pork fi-om the agent, and telegraphed the store-keeper
at Clieyeiine or tite fi'eiglit-coiitra~tor ([ tliiiik it was tlie store-keel)er)
to send no more pork ou Slaveits's contract until it had becn iiispecte~l at
Clieyeiine.  I telegraphed ilso the inspector at I&ansas City, asking hiiti
what sort of pork lie had passed, and he replied, "Pritite mess." I may
have the teriiis ~ixed-priine mess or mess.  lie told tue how iltany
bari~ls he l~ad passed as prime mess, and how matty as ti~ess.  ~Vlten I
got tlie information, I kitew what sort of pork I liad at Cheyenne; that
is, I sui)l)osed I knew, an~l saspended the requirenietit that it should be
re-iiisl)ected there.  I theti foutid from 1~obert Cattil~bell, a n~embcr of the
01(1 boar~l of coinniissii)ners in Saint Louis, tlte difference in market-value
l~et~~~een mess-itork att~1 prime mess, atid required 51-avens to make good
t~tat (lifferetice ill bacou at market-rates deli vet-ed at lied Cloud a~enQy.
I~e,-i~reed to it, atid tlie titatter is just ilow cotisunimate~l.  I uti~lerstaud
the bac~~n has beeti sliipI)ed to lied Cloud.
Q. ~\~liat was the amount of the difference?
- &. That I caitnot state fi-otti ineniory.
(~.Cm  you turitisli it to ils
A. Yes, sir; you have the whole correspondence.
~)~y tlte CllAIRThtAN
Q. Is it adiusted at tlte dif'~reitce th;it is stated itt th~tt cotresponddice?
~. Yes, sir  it wis 50 a{Th' ust~-d.
i3y ~1r. ATlIERTON:
&~. Cati you give lis a copy of tlie ti'le~ratn stiting tli'it lie lia~l fttrnislietl tite I)rinie iiiess?
A. Yes sit-; Tlirelkel{1s tele~ratit that lie h;td i);is~e~l I~tiiiie mess.  I
thiitk you have it troin nie already.
[See ~)ag( )~)`2.j
(~~ I understand you to s~y, ill tbe flist pi-ice, the advertisettieitt c-tiled
for tuess.
A. The advertisenient called for proposals for tness-l)ot~k.
(~.I~o'v (lid it occur that the contract di(l not specify tlte saute grade
of poi'k that tlie advertisenient calle~1 for?
A. It was a clerical error iii irafting tlte coittract.
(~.~Vho is responsible for the clerical error -?
A. The clerk who drew the cotitract iii the ~nreatt. 
717
Q. Tlie same error or ~ariatioii occurred with the same n~an with refei'eiice to the ~dvertisement and contract for flour.
A. It could not have been the same variation.
Q. ~Vell. a sin~iIar variation.  Ati advertisement was inserted in the
papers askin~ for proposals for furnishing XX flour.  If I recollect
ri~~htly, tlie contract only stipulated to furnish flour.  Is that vatiation
to be aceotinted for in the saute way?
A. I should rather see th.'tt cotitract before I isseutel to that.  Thc
contract called for flour according to sanil~le.  It is ~l)eeitie.
By Mr. MARSIl:
().Are not the printed l)roposals eon~ideret1 part ~f the cotitract
A. No, sir- unless it is so stat~d iii tlie contract.  That is, they are
not necessarily so.
By Mr. ATllLRTON:
Q. Do you remember how much of the lower grade of pork was furnished on tite contract ~
A. Yes, sir.  The following is a tabular.~tateinent of delivery and
in.~pection of pork uitder contract with J. ~V. Slavens of date July 11,
i~74:
Date of delivery and inspection.  Number of barrels.
Angrist   20, 1S74        65 barrels pork, mess.
Angust   2~, 1574        J;~ barrels pork, mess.
September 24, 1574       200 barrels pork, prime mess.
O~tob~r 29, 1574            2t)0 barrels pork, prime mess.
November 5, 1574            200 barrels pork, prime mess.
December  5, 1~74           200 barrels pork, mess.
Total number of barrels prime mess, 600  difference in market-values of mess
and prime mess, ~3.50 per barrel on 600 barrels                                  ~2, 100 0O
For whieb Slavens delivers at R(~d Cloitd agency, free of cost for transportation,
l(~ barrels ness-pork. worth (contract rate, $21 per barrel at Kansas City).... 2,100 00
Add transportation on 10(1 barrels from Kansas City to i~ed Cl9ttd ageucy at con  tract r~tes                                                                       915 06
Total amount paid by Slaven as indemnity                                      ~~3, 015 06
Q. And can you stute tlie differenee in the~narket-value of that which
was furnished and that which you supi)osed w.'ts to be furitished tinder
the contract?
A. It is iii the record.
By tite CHAIRMAN;
(~.flow did you arrive at tite difference betweet titess-l}oi'k, the kin(I
called f~r in the proi)os;tls, anti the kind of i)ork he lurnished`.~
4 The pork he fliritished was prime itiess, according to the statement
of the iiIsl)ector.  Tltat has utaiket-ri es, aitti tness-pot~k has marketrates. i~obert Carnpi~ell give me those market-rates, and on his iuformatioii I made uty co1nputati~n.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. If it should tuin out tit at tite iit~pector i~assed pork of a lower gn~de
titati prime n~ess-pork, tlteii ~~~tu`vete to th~t extent defrauded by the
contractor or by hiin -.~
~. Yes, sir. 
~18
By ~tr. ATllERTON:
~? ~Vho proposed to settle it on the basis whi~h was fliially agreel
nI)()I1
A. I think I proposed t}ie ba~is aFter }eai'iiiiig the di~erenee iti
n~ark~ (1 value, an~l ~lr. Slaveiis coiiseiited to it.
(~.~id tiie l)rol)o~ition conie from the L)nrean or fl'on~ biin?
A. If I recollect rightly, that was not liis first l)ropositioii, but lie was
brought to it. I have forgotten what his first I)rol)ositiou was, bu~t it was
ilot as g~iod as that by aiiy n~eans. I want to say in this coiiiiection that
I never had aiiy n0isglvings as to 110y inspector at I&ansas City.  lie
was api~oiiited on the noiniiiatioii of 1~~ubert Catnl)bell, of the purchas
ing coniinittee of the old Board of Iii~1iaii Commissioners, on his personal
ac(luaiiitalice, for the year previous, au~l was contiiiued ii) office at lliy
request diiri~ig the next year, because of the credentials under which he
~vas first a~)poi ii ted.  I never liad aiiy misgiviligs as to his true inspectiolis.  I was surprised to find that he should think of passing prime
mess pork, after Slaveiis had I~ tit in n~ess pork, without tonsulting inc
at all; aii~l when he stated tli('tt that which he did iiispe~t`v;is I)rirne
mess, I had no question about it in iiiy (iw'L niind.
By Mr. FAvLRN~R:
Q. I find among' the rccominendatioiis of ~isliop II are  That all beef
aii~l other provisions be issued by or~le~s on tlie issue clerk, which or~lers
should p;iss through the office in ortter to their appearance oli the books
tli<it these orders be filed away ft~r safe.keeping, and tlie books and
pipers of the agelicy be tlie property of tiie &~overiiineiit, aiid not of the
`igent.'  ~~oes that recommendation iiieet your a,pprobatioii, niid has it
beeti carrie~l out as reconimeutled by the coilulisslon of which Bishop
Bare was chairman ~
Q. I atii not certain except as to tlie latter part.  I know I have been
issuing orders that (`ill books anti records belonging to the agencies
shall be retained at tlie ageJicy.  ~Vlieii`in agent is superseded the instructions to liis successor are, to insist on retaiiiing all the records,
and the order to the outgoing a gent is to turn over all records as the
property of the ageiic~'.
Q. You have not, tl~en, made any order to carry out the first i)art of
that recommendation?
A. I doii't remember that I have.
Q. ~Ve found a very general complaint, ~~r. Commissioner, iii regard
to the kind of tobacco that has been issued to the Iiidians under tlie
iiiipression, I find, that it was tobacco to be smoked, which is the oiily
f~trin in which the Indians use tobacco, but was of a character aiid kind
that is usually chewed; ought the Del)art!ueiit, in view of a pro~~er
ecoilomy, to stibstitute another kiiid of tobacco in lieu of that which
h;is beeti heretofore seiit, an{1 which is only suitable for clie'viiig?
A. Yes, sir.  I took that into coi~sideratiou this year, and purchased
a higher grade of tol~acco.  I didn't know previously, though, that tlie
Sioux had ft~und fault with the tobacco.  I did flu(1 that tlie southern
Ind jans iii the Indiaii Territory, two years ago, when I was there, had
fountl tiie sanie objection to tiieir tobacco; and I changed that last
year, giviiig them a lighter g,radc than I gave the Sioux.
(~.Ifave you i~roposed to tnriiish theni a better kiiid of tobacco`.
A. They have a better grade of tobacco this year than last year.
By Mr. ATllLRTON:
Q. Is there any uniforni system of book-kee~ting followed in the agencies? 
71~J
A. I have lately published ~fl account-book, witl) ~)i'oper lettering and
headings, aiid seiit it to all the agents.  The last went out three weeks
ago from the office.
Q. Is there ally penalty attached by law to C'~~~~~~~ away the books
ot the agency by th~ ageilt
A. The last Approprittion Bili provides a penalty foi' it.
By Mr. llAR~iS:
().I want to call your attention to the report which l~as been cirenlated in the UCW5~~I)C~5 that an attempt has been made by you or your
Dcpartment -(;eneral Cowen's name beiiig meijtioiied-to cause tlie l)ayinei~t to Mr. Dodge of about $5,()UO for cattle 5('I~d to have beeii t~kcii
by Indians froin the herd.  ~N~ili you tell what you know about that
in a short way ~  I don't want to ~~roioug the inquiry.
~. That claini came up iii the Indiaii Bureau in the ordinary rontiiie. aiid was i)assed upon by nie, ap~)roviIig it, in the sanie way that
cl-tiius of that nature hid becii passed upon by Commissioner ~Valkeu
and his predecessor.  Several claims of the sanie nature liad also
l~assed that Board of Indian Commissioners, an~l liad been settled by
tiie Treasury officers.  I seiit it iu tlie routine with uly approval, to the
Board of Indian Coin missioiieis.  They disajiproved it, thus reversing
their previous action on simil'~r claims. for reasons which they gave
then it caine back to the Secretiry ot the liiterior, aiid the action of
the Board was sustaiiied by the Secretary ~~f tlie Iiiteiior.  ~Vhetlier
there was;t retuiti of that iccoutit to tlie Boird for further itiquiry as
to its merits before tlie finil actioti of tlie Secretary ott it, I do not know
biit the final action by the Secretary was the actioti sustaining the ~iCt~0tt
of tlie Board.
Q. ~~~as it true that the claim was afterwar~l prcseiited to Congress?
A. Yes, sir; then it was treated as a depredatioii claim, and is probably now waititog at the bottom of about five iiiiliions of others for its
turn.
Q. Do you know that that lias been withdrawn by Dodge?
A. I doti't know.
Q. Did you have before you evideiice which you considered coneltisive, that the cattle had actutl~y been taken by the Indians front the
contractor?
A. Yes, sir; I had evideiice that I thought was satistactory, and I
think there is no question raised on that poitit.
Q. Has there been any question about it, so far as the Board of Indian
Commissioners are concerned?
A. Not that I am aware of.  The main oi~ection to allowing such ac counts, as I understand it, is that it is a daugerous practice to pay that
sort of claim because of the irregularity aud waiit of check attetidiug it.
The cattle were not weighed, atid there could be 100 ~55~~'~~C~ that the
~umbers were positively correct.  I tloink the feeling of tlie Board was
that that sort of payment ought somehow to be stopped.  My belief was
that the contractor was out this nutiober of cattle; that tlie Iti~lians had
catch them, atid while they were eatitig these they were toot eating or
calliiig for the reoular issue at the agelicy and that this was tlie coil tractor's only chance to get his p;iy for cattle which ha~l licen of service
to the Cwovernuient in feediiig Indians, and I was williiig that he should
have it
(~.~)~) you thitik it was equitable to pay it~utider that arrangement?
A. Ys, I think it would Ii ave beet eiitiieiy so; aii~l ~ et 1 thitik the
Board v~as Justified iii its actioli because of the liability of collusion in
making up such claims. 
720
(~. i~fl(I you fo(iI1{l Ilo f' ~i1t ~it1i their OV~FIt1}jI1~ it?
A.No, ~ii'.  ilur~ is ~ C~)11tr'I(~tOt~s 1i~r&I ~vIi i(~11 he is ret1tiiit~~i to kee1)
~~ithiii;i cert<'~iii d~st('~UCC ()f the;1~'CI)(~~  the Iiidi;iiis kiio~v those cattle
1 i'( ~~r tlieiii  they;~ ic I~'~~ <iii  t~y ()!i`1 ii ii iit, ()F &O1i~j lig Iii from "i ii tiiit
they h'iven~t;~nytliiii  to cit, <~ii{! they caii!iot get`iiiytliiiig liLitli they
get to tlie agency.  They ~o to tlie 1~criI aiid tike eatr!e before tlie face
it. tlie contr~ctoi, (`~11(1 oiiittiu~cs iii tlie iiueseiice of the s1ib~~geiit ~vbo
(`iCCOfI)P(~H~CS tlieiii.  tie c~iiiiot coiitr~i1 tlieiii; lie sees them  t(ikC the
i~ittle;iiid eat tlieiii: (`~1i(l ~vhcu lie gets to t!ie agelicy lie reliresents to
tlie ~geflt th('~t they!i;ivc 11(1(1 50 ni;iiiy C(~ttlC  anil tlie`igelit 5('i~5  TJie
cojitractor J1(~5 got ~ fi Ir c~ise (~1)tl ou~ht to be ~~`1~(I for those c;tttle as
n~uch ~s if I h;td t~kcii then fro~~ lii in`tnd given them to the Iiidians."
Thit is the iiatnre of these cl~iiiis.
~? Jn eiitcriiig iii to a ei)iitr;i~'t does iiot tlie CO~tr'~Ctor assniiie tlie risk
that his C('ittlC, ol' a coilsiderable portion of tlieiii, ~`i~ be dcprcd;ited
upon by the Indians ~
~.Tlie Contr:icti)r, Ol CO~~5C bids with tlie custom  of the busiiiess
full iii n~ind.  If the lirIctlce has be~n to ~iay fi~r cattle thns takeii, be
~oul~l naturally couiit ul)o~i its contjiinance, and this risk would not entcr in to liis proposal  of course you have got to stol) somewhere; an~i
I ain not at all sure that tlie actioii of the board was tiot entirely right
iii stoppiligit there.  They were taken by tlie very Iii~liai~s for whom the
nioi)ey had been apj)ropriated to purchase theni; the sub-ageiit saw them
t('ikCIi.  I don't meaii to say that all these circumst~Lnces were true of
the Dodoc claim.  1~ut there are several c~aIn~s of that sort iiow pending.  A cl'iim of this iiatui~ ~`t5,' I think, allowed by the Comptroller not
]oiig 5 rice.
Q.I noticed iii sonic p;irt of tlie evidence somewhere that, in conversition with I~rofessoi' ~Iarsh in ~Iay last, or whenever the iliterview in
~ashington was, you expressed an o~)inioii that Saville was nufit to be
in agent any longer ~
A.  I should liot prit it in that form.
Q.I want to know what you (11(1 ~Qy.
A.~Ir. ~~arsli expressed his Opini(ill of ~Ir. Stvillc 5 i?)coinpetcncy to
fill tlie position he held, from which I (liii iiot (lIsSelit, birt replied that
niaiiy of' my flgciits weic iiot large eiiough for the dii ties ~i ut upoii them,
`ind that he nitist iiot exl)ect ii)e to fiiid a iiian con0I)etent and williiig to
till the ilge ucy at ~LC (1 C liiuil for ~1,Th()() J ~ ear, " lien it required nioi-e
executive ability to be agent at i~e(l Cloud than to 1)e goveriior of Conliecticut.
Q. {1~eading.~ "`~Aiid tlie President On advisiri g with theCoininissioner
of Indliii Aftairs, sli;ilt lirescribe such rules aiid regulitions for ascertainiiig daniages nuder the lirovisiolis of this article as iii lils ~iudgm e rit
iiiay l)C ~)ro~ier."  Are there 1 nlcs aiid reQ'iil'Ltioiis coiicci~iiing the I)roof
of de i)rc(latioi 15 I)rcs ciibe~t iii the l('t5t section of tlie flist article of the
Treity of 1S(3~, ~ liich I have just re;id?
A.There ire hut not iio~ oI)(iJti~ e, ~iiil cannot be, because a la~v of
Ci~ngress, which supersedes all tienties forbl~ls tlie use of aiiy alinuity
or ticaty nioney to be CX~ C niled iii Ilay ineiit of deliiedatiiins.  So that,
if' that (?laini is a (lCl)red'itioii-claiin, it caiiiiot be 1}(i~(l.  It Ciii be paid
oiily by treating it as an issue aii~l I ~~a 5 dis1)osc(l to treat it as such.
~)y the CflAIR~\iAN:
(~.I~lease exl~lain tlie iiiattcr of the;\I~ii'shall coiitr'ict
tion for freight from t~tu(lall 10 \\ hetstoiie igc ii(`y give;  for traiisp~rta
to A. IJ. \\ ilder
in 1~7J 
721:
k At tlie opening of the bids for this transportation, the lowest bid
was by (reorge i~Iarshall, at ~1.12 per one hundred pounds p~r oiie bundred niiles.  The ne~t bid higher was y~i.37.  The party in;~king this
liid was evideiitly in collusion with  ~Iarshall  be canie to iiie iiiiinediately after the reading of the bids, ~`alled iny atteiitioii to liis bi(I of
~~~.3, sayil)g he exi)ected to get it.  I reminded hiiu ~r a lower bidder,to whom the contract would proba~~ly be iwarded, but he still seen~ed
to tliiiik that the bid would come to him.  It was awarded to ~iarsball:
(`it -~1.12  be declined to cuter into bonds, ~nd I fouiid oij examination
that his l)id was inforn~al, aiid that I could iiot compel biu~ to execute
;i ei)ntract.  I notified iii iii tli;it lie would hereafter be consiilered as a
~lef;inlting bidder by the Indian Burean.  I tlieii deteru~iiie~l to reject
all bids, provided I could obtaiii a propositioli lower tiiaii a ~lollar thirty
seven, which was the next highest bi(l.  I made inquiry of several parties by telegram, letter, and by personal applicatioi~.  ~Ir. N\~ilder~s offer
of ~~.32 was the lowest, and it was awarded to lijin.  I believe iiiy action was strictly under the law; I know it was tor tlie beiiefit of the
~overnment, and I had no other motive in it.  The fict that N\~ilder
was able to procure the service frou~ another party at 2() cents per
hundred n~iles less than be received is no indication of fraud, aiid the
fact that ~Iarshali, who had been unwilling to enter into contract with
the Government at $1.IL', while the scheme for raising the price to S'~.37
was pending, was afterward willing to do the service for ~ViIder at that
rate, does not require to be accoui~ted for by any supposition of fraud.
When Wilder's accounts for this transportation service came before:
the old Board of Indian Commissioners they were disapproved, and
will be found in a list of accounts, amounting to over y~100,()O0, reported
to the President as disapproved by that board on account of being.
"irregular or" illegal.~  I regard this transpo~tation accotint of ~Vilder-s as a fair sp~ciin~en of a large portion of the accounts thus di sap
proved or rejected by that Boat-d, and afterward allowed by the Secretary of the Interior under- the discretionary power vested iii hini by law.
By Mr. MARSH:
Q. There are -a few matters connected with the first part of the Comiiiissioner's statement I would like to ask some questions about, one ofwhich has been touched upon.  I noticed in the first page of the stateineiit you speak about a letter of credit which yo~~ gave me to Red~
Cloud.  Will you please explain what you mean by the term "letter of
credit?`~
A. I mean a letter indorsing you as a safe man to go into his country,
and asking him to show you all courtesy and assistance in your pursuits. -
Q.  When did you give me such a letter to Red Cloud?       -  - -
A.  If I remember correctly it was the year before.         - -
(~. Did you ever give me a letter of that kind to Red Cloud? —
A.  Possibly it'was to Spotted Tail.      -
Q.  You gave me a letter to Spotted Tail, not to Red Clo~d.. -
A. Y~6u are rigbt, and the correction should be rnade'in my statement,
~)ntting Spotted Tail in place of Red Cloud.
Q.  Tlie lett~r you gave me to Spotted Tail was in 1873? -
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That, I believe, I ~vrote aud thanked you for  but, as -it ~irned
out, I had no occasion to use it, though I was just as much obliged toyou for it as if I had had occasion to use it.  You say- in the first para.
graph, in.speaking of the rations which I-showed you from Red Cloud
lie said that he had not in ai~y way tested these samples by compari.
46 I F 
722
son with supj~lies which were then being issued by the a~ent."
m%k;e Sth(b~{ti}{n{e}ll1knt t1o WnO~'}io?~t giving your words. am Did
I            only giving my
impression of that interview.
Q. Did I not allude to supplies that I saw quile independent of the
samples that Red Cloud gave me ~
A. Yes; but, at the same time, you said that you liad not compared
them.
Q. Did I imply in atiy way that those samples tit at Red Cloud gave
me were all the informatioti I had ott the subject of supplies, as has beeii
so ofteit intimated?
k. You did ttot state that.
(~.Di(l I imply it in aity w;ty?
A. You did i~ot lay any emphasis on any examination which you had
made of supplies.
(? Did I not meittion to you the fact that I observed about the flour
where I exantined a specimeit?
A. Yes; but, at the same time, you told me yon could not say at all
whether that was like the flour tit at Red Cloud gave you, but your impression was that it was not good flour.
Q. Did I not say they were both dark colored?
A. Yes; and that was all the fault you found with it.  You said you
could not say but that it was sweet and wholesome.
Q. But, so far as I observed w
they were similar?,  ithout a direct comparison of the two,
A. Yes; but, at the same time, you said you did not make a comparison; you were not a judge of flour, and could not tell whether tlie two
were alike.
(? I said I did not make a direct comparison.
A. I didn't understand you to use the word direct.  You gave me to
ui~derstand you (lid not con~i~are tite two.
Q. Referring to thisiitterview, you state further; "The next morning
an account of this interview between Professor ~Iarsh and myself apIteared in a New York paper, giving an iticorrect and entirely unfair
version of it."  Did that account a~~pear the next morning?
k That is my recollection; possibly the day subsequent, or possibly
not until a day or two after.  It was on the morniitg I we tit to New
York.  ~Iy remembrance of your visit is that it was the day before I
wei~t to New York; but I am not sure.
Q. N\~as it not three days after?'
k. I could not say.
~. Is that the statement to which you refer as given the next morning?  [Newspaper slip shown.]
A. I should say so; but I could not be positive.  The statement to
which I refer was in the New York Tribune.
Q. That is from tbe New York Tribune of Apnl 26.  Is that the one.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. N\~ill you please read the statement, and tell me wherein it gives
~n incorrect and entirely unfair version of the interview?
A. This is not the whole of what appeared in the New York Tribune
of that morning.
Q. You refer here, a little fi~rther on, to what I said about the inter view.  Now, all I said about the interview, in any way, shape, or man ner, that was printed, is contained in that paragraph.  N\Till you please
read the reference to yourself there, and see if it is not a perfectly fair de  
723
scription in few words, and if not, state in what particular, even the
slightest, it varies from an accurate account of the inter~~iew?
A. By an examination of my statement you will see I make no ref.
erence to what you said about your interview with me. I speak of what
ap~~eared in the New York paper in connection with your visit to me;
and your action or non-action with refereiice to those newspaper statemeiits was what my statement says it was.
Q. Is there anything in that dispatch that is absolutely iiicorrect?
A. Yes sir.
Q. ~~ill you please point it out?
A. This may be true in form, biit it is t)tlse iii eil~ct, and iii the inteiit of the man who sent it.  Accordii~g to this statement, Pro~essor
~Iarsh told the President that P~ed Cloud said his blankets were not
fit for horse-blankets.  Professor ~farslt knows that what Red Cloud
said on tl~is matter v-as a lie, and yet lie allowed this statemeiit and
others of a similar character to go for truth, and be0 commented upon
with very serious criticisms as if they were true, ai~d all the time with
Professor ~Iarsh's name attached to them or associated with them as a
sponsor for their truth.
Q. I refer to the portion in that dispatch relating to my~interview
with you. Is there anything in the account of that interview that is not
strictly correct?
A. Yes, sir; it is in the same form with tlie rest of it.  The whole
dispatch is got ten up on that method-true iii form, but fi~Ise iii effect.
No man can read that statement an~1 not be impressed with the belief
that you represented to me and to the President a most deplorable state
of things at Red Cloud, or gave me reason to believe there was a most
deplorable state of things there, which was not true. There was no such
state of things.  Putting all that stuff into Red Cloud's mouth, and
then indonsing it with Professor ~Iarsh's name, makes Red Cloud's
statement a pretty good paper for circulation, and that is what that
dispatch does.  An editorial comment on this dispatch in the same
paper was much more objectionable thaii the dispatch itself, and I include that when I speak of the account of this interview which appeared
in a New York paper.
Q. Now, do you mean by putting that all on to Red Cloud that I
based my statements to you on what P~ed Cloud aloiie said?
A. I didn't say you were putfing it all on to Red Cloud.  I say the
dispatch puts everything into Red Cloud's mouth, and then makes
Professor ~Iarsh indorse what Red Cloud has said.
Professor ~IAR5ll. I had no wish or intention that the results of our
interview should be made public; it was merely by accident that that
was the case.  All I said about the interview was to give iii few words
just what occurred, and for that aloiie, of course, I am responsible. The
dispatch was not written nor dictated by me, and for any remarks which
newspaper.men might subsequently make in regard to it I do not bold
myself responsible, but only for the accuracy of the statement coiicerning my interview with the Commissioner.
WiTNESS. I have provided in my statement for exactly that state
of the case: "N\~hen a inan lias wronged another, unintentionally or
otherwise, two courses are open to him-to make repal-ation or endeavor
to justify his action." A man is ofteii as much respo~isible for what he
does not do as for what he does do. You saw that I w~s misrepresented
and injured in your name aiid by reason of what you tIad said, and you
di(l not set me i'ight.
(~.You state heic, " The opportunity given that chi~f ai~d his band 
724
to stite their grievances was`no~t aiiiple."  This refers to ~fay last,
wheii I~~ed Cloud and ~o'ne of his baud were in ~~~asliington.  J)id that
chief aiid his band have aiiij~le op~)ortnnity to state their grievalices
4 I should think so; they talked nearly three hours.  J g)t tired of
it myself.  After they ha~l asked for white gran~ilated sugar insteLd of
llavana, and named niaiiy more grievances equally severe, and scarcely
any more severe, the last~meu~ioiied grievance they could think of was
that the planks on their scales for weighing cattle were too thick, and
they asked to have them shaved down so that they woul~l get more
beef.  ~~~hen they had got down to that complaint, I should iiifer that
they had aniple opportniiity to state all their grievances.
By tlie CllAIRMAN:
Q. Did you have more than one iiiterview with them?
A ~Ve had one special interview, at which their agent was not allowed to be present, for them to tell exclusively what was the in at ter
(it Red Cloud agency.  For this interview we devoted to Red Cloud, I
should judge, more than two hours and a half.
By Mr. MARSH:
Q. ~Vere all Red Cloud's Indians there?
A. All that lie wanted; he ma{le up the company tbr that interview.
Q. Did any Indian, except Red Cloud hav
that occasion?,   e an opportuiiity to talk oii
A. Yes, sir; several other Indians talked.
Q. You say, "No coniplaint was made by Red Cloud himself against
his agent until drawn out from hiiii by tlie inquiry of Mr. Marsh,
whether he was perfectly satisfied with his agent?" Did I not ask you
to put that question to him?
A. You did; and I though~ it was an improper question for anybody
to put.  I was not there for the purpose of inviting complaints, but simply to give Red Cloud the freest chance to tell all his complaints without the: presence of his agelit.  I didn't want to ask him nor help him
to make up~a case against his agent.  I didn't desire to have him make
compltnts, and decliiied to try to draw them out; but in reply to you I
suggested that you put the question vourself
put it in that form., if you desired it; and you
Q. Considering that Red Cloud had many times n~ade these comI)laints'~o~~ue in-very strong terms, was it not perfectly proper to ask
him thnt-question wheii he had an q)portunlty to benefit himself by
answering it?   -
A. Red Cloud knew his oI)portuuities.  That was his -appoiiitment.
lie had three hours to tell liis grievances.  lie had spent nearly that
whole time and was not going to say anything against his agent until
it was drawn out from hiiii in this way.  It is a matter of opinion on]y
as to whether it was proper to draw it out of him, and I have giveil
mine.   -  -
Q. Do y~u not know that the Iudiaiis of Red Cloud's band were very
much dissatisfied with him for iiot stating his grievances more fully on
that (0~, and especially in regard to his agent?
A. I do not; but-I do kn~w that some of them were extremely dissatisfled and very angry with him for saying anything against liis agent, even
after it -was drawn out.  They so told me.  Some of th~ best mcii with
Red Cl9iLd were Saville's steadfast, loyal friends.
- Q~ Y~~ refer to Sitfing Btill? -                      -
A. lie is one. 
725
Q.  I)o you not know that Agent Saville has systematically favored
Sitting Bull at the expense of Red Cloud?
A.  I don't know anything to that effect, but I should say it would be
a piece of good sense on his part to secure the favor of a brave, infinential, an d true Indian like Sitting Bull, and if Red Cloud was plotting
against him, to do it at Red Cloud's expense if it could not be done in
any other way.
Q.  Did you iiot, i minediately after that council, use very harsh language to me in the presence of several people in con sequence of that
interrogatory put to Red Cloud?
A.  No, sir; not in consequence of that alone. I t was on account of
your whole bearing at th~t interview, which is fairly represented by that
question.
Q.  Did you not show great ai~ger at me and use very harsh language
indeed?
A.  I was very indignant at your course, and I presume I told you so.
I did use severe language, for which I apologized to you afterward.
Q.  llad you not previously, on occasicus, used similar language to
me in your own office?
A.  I did use language declaring that I regarded your course as
xtremely unfair and discourteous-a course very different from what I
1j~ad a right to expect of you; and this I told you very plainly.
Q.  Did you not use insulting language to me in your own office?
A.  PossibJy I did.  I told you what I thought of your course as
)lainly as I could.  I do not suppose I minced matters at all.
(?. This was before I had published my statement about Red Cloud
~ffairs-when I was merely looking into the management of Indian
-iffairs.
A.  This was before your published letter to the President, but it was
while those same attacks and this same bad and unfair use of your name
a connection with these matters was being made, and, of course, with
~our full knowledge~ and without any effbrt on your part to set me
ight. I claimed in the controversy I had with you that you knew the
~ress was misrepresenting me, and that a single word from you to your
Y'it~iid in the Tribui~e office would change it all. That is what I claimed,
ad on that ground I demanded, as a matter of honor and ordinary
~air'icss between men, that you should set me right. This you declined.
called your attention also to the fact that a statement which I had
~ade to you, a concession in regard to Saville, which I never bad made
efore iii mortal ear, appeared within forty-eight hours afterward, in
garbled form, in tlie New York Tribune, and perverted to my injury.
Q. N\~hat was that statement?
A.  I don't recollect it now. I remember calling your attention to that
act.
(~. Did you at the same time give out dispatches to the papers conerning me that were erroneous?
A.  No, sir; I did not.  I eiideavored to answer questions put to me
)y reporters in such a way as to set the facts before the public, in oppo.
ition to the statements, which were not facts, which were going through
he press indorsed by connection with your name.
Q.  Of the large number of dispatches sent oiit from your Department
bout that time affecting me, do you consider they were all accurate
iid true ))
A.  It is impossible for me to answer such a question. I may not have
ell or heard of one~tenth part of such dispatches. 
726
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. N\~hat do you understand to be meant by going out from your
Office-that they were written by your Department ~
A. I suppose Mr. Marsh means respecting the Interior Department,
or purporfing to emanate from that Department. If he means any dispatch I wrote or dictated, I should answer, Yes, I consider it true; but
if he means dispatches that often appear in this form, "it is said the
Indian Bureau states,"' or "it is said at the Interior Department,~~ and
which Professor Marsh himself cannot trace to any authorship, I should
not undertake to say that they were true or not true.
By Mr. MA~sII:
Q. You have got here the dispatch in regard to tite cattle examined
by General Bradley, which reads thus:
Commissioner Smith, of the Indian Buican, says, in regard to the letter of General Brad
ley, published yesterday, that the cattle spoken of belong to the contractor; that they were
sick, some of them with broken limbs, and that they were not issued to the Indians, and that
there was no intention of is~uing them, ~imply because they were in such a poor and sickly
condition.  It asserts that Red Dog's statement was incorrect, and that Red Cloud informed
him this morning that Red Dog lied when he told the story to General Bradley and Professor
~larsh.  The Commissioner also states that General Bradley could ii ave satisfied himself of
this fact by a slight inquiry ot' the herdsmen or contractor, it lie had desired to do so.
You answer fairly the latter l~art of that dispatch, but say nothing
about the most important part that preceded it. Did you not dictate
that dispatch in your own office?
A. I (lid not, if by dictation you mean telling a reporter what to put
down.
Q. Did tlie agent of the Associated Press take down that dispatch
from your own lips in your own office?
A. lle say~ he wrote it iii my office.
Q. Do you not know, of your own knowledge, that he took it down
from you~ own lips, in your own office ~
A. I do not.  If by "from your own lips" you mean verbatim, Ikuow
to the contrary.
Q. Did you correct that d'spatch when you noticed its publication
and saw it was wrong ~
A. Ididnot.
Q. Did you not see that in that dispatch there were strong reflections
upon the character of those three AHny officers, as well as on their
judgment and good sense ~
A. Yes; I should think there was-on their good sense.
Professor MARsIT~. If you expect others to correct dispatches  WITNESS. I bad the feeling about those officers which is conveyed in
the dispatch. I think they allowed Red Cloud to use their names and
rank to fortify his complaint, without having made proper inquiry into
the matter of which he complained.
Professor MARSH. Then I have nothing more to say, only this, that I
~ave that dispatch on the authority of tlte agent of the Associated
Press, who informed me that he took it down directly from your lips, as
published.
WITNESS. lle informed me, a day or two since, that he did not at
ternpt to take it verbatim, but that he made up the dispatch from what
I was saying. I asked him specially if he could say I dictated it to him,
and he said I did not. The mistake in the report is a very easy one tc
account for, so easy that to most minds it would hardly have seemed
proper to make it the basis of accusing me of falsehood without further
inquiry. 
727
Professor ~IARsll. lle informed me that he took it from your lips.
Q. The flour-dispatch, which follows the beef-statement, is in these
words:
It is stated at the Indian Bureau, with reference to the complaints concerning supplies furnished to the Indians at the Red Cloud agency, that all the flour sent there was inspected
at Cheyenne, by Major Long, commissary of subsistence of the United States Army, and
passed by him as equal to the accepted samples.  It is therefore claimed that the samples of
inferior flour brought here by Professor Marsh, at the request of Red Cloud, were of some
old issue, or, like the specimens of sugar and tobacco, have been damaged by exposure to
the weather while in the Indians' possession.
Now, did I mention your name in connection with tbat?
A. The only reference made by you to that dispatch, which I have
noticed, is in your open letter to the President.
Q. Did you not state to me, previous to the publication of that dispatch, the same thing, iii almost exactly the same words, differing only
in stating that an Arm~ officer at Cheyenne had inspected the flour,
instca~l of giving Major Long's name?
A. No, sir; I should say not.  I undoubtedly referred to the fact that
~1ajor Long was inspector of flour at Cheyenne, and that the Red Cloud
tlonr had been inspected by him.  It would be very natural for me to
make such a statement, because it represents the facts in the case; but
I do not remember anything about it.
Q. I stated in my pamphlet that the Indian Commissioner was responsible for that dispatch.  As soon as I ascertained that you yourself
did not send the dispatch, did I not state to you that I had already corrected it, and put the responsibility on the acting Indian Commissioner
who was, of course, the Commissioner in your absence.  Did I not int~orm you of that fact before you wrote your statement?
A. ~)ou did; but I don't naderstand how by that transfer you relieve
yourself from the responsibility of having charged me with falsehood,
when you now find that tlie statement which you characterized as false
was not made by me at all.
Professor ~IARsll. So far as the published statement is concerned, I
frankly withdraw any such charge, but merely state, as given in my
pamphlet, that you had made a similar statement to me previously,
omitting Major Long's name.
Q. Do you know of any beef contract given since you were Indian
Commissioner to a Mr. Cox?
A. No, sir; I do not recollect any.  I don't think there has been any.
Q. When the Indian reservation is surveyed, from what fund is the
money for that purpose drawn?
A. From the appropriation for the survey of Indian reservations.
Q. A'special appropriation for the special reservations, or is there an
appropriation which may be used for different reservations?
A. Sometimes it is special and sometimes it is general.
Q. Who gives the contract in such cases?
A. The surveyor-general of the Territory or State; that is the custom.
Q. Does the Land-Office of the Interior Department control such
contracts?
A. I cannot say as to the Land-Office.  The survey is done under the
direction of the Commissioner of the Land-Office.  The surveyors-general are under him.
Q. Your Bureau, of course h
A. Nothing at all.,  as nothing to do with that? 
728
WASHIN~TON, D. C.,
~Vednesday, Sept~rnbcr 15, 1S75.
Present: llon. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairman~ Hon. TIMOTHY 0.
HOWE, Hon. B. W. HARRIS, Hon. CHARLES J. FAvLKNER, and Prof.
GEOR~E W. ATHERTON.
Professor MARSH, and Hon. B. P. SMITH, Commissioner of Indian
Affairs, were also present.
TESTIMONY OF DR. J. D. BEVIER.
In reply to an invitation of the chairman to meet the commission in
~~ashington, Dr. Bevier had sent the following communication:
"C~RAND RAPIDS, MIcH., September 5, 1875.
DEAR SIR: Your favor, dated Saint Louis, September 1, requesting
me to meet you in Washington, D. C., on the 9tli instant, is received.
It would be extremely inconvenient for me at this time to comply
with your request.
-If I am wanted to establish any neglect of duty upon the part of the
Secretary or the Assistant Secretary of the Interior, then it is unnecessary,
as I have no such information to furnish, but if your evidence in regard
to the agent at the Red Cloud agency is insufficient to establish his unfitness for the place, then I am ready and willing, and I think abundantly
able, to supply such deficiency.
The history of my acquaintance and connection with the Red Cloud
agency is briefly as follows:
In ~Iarch, 1874, one year and a half ago, I visited the Red Cloud
agency in con~pany with Bishop Hare, Rev. S. D. llinman, and ~fr. F. II.
Smith, to investigate the charges preferred by Samuel Walker.  We
came to the conclusion that Mr. Walker went there to fli~d fault, right
or wrong; that his charges were unfounded and uiijust, and that Dr.
Saville, then new in office, inexperienced, and laboring iti~dcr many embarrassments, liad honestly done the best he could. Accordingly, we
relieved him from those charges, and commended him to the confidence
of the Department.
In September following, six months after, I weiit fliere again in my
capacity of inspector. On my way I was detained some days at Ciley.
enne, and while there I discovered certain sns~icious circumstances in
regard to the flour. At this time Mr. Hinman arnved at Cheyeiine from
the North, where he had been a long time engaged in locatiiig the Whetstone agency. Mr. Hinman had spent considerable time at the Red
Clond agency and had made many discoveries. Upon comparing notes
we concluded there was something wrong in relation to the flour, and
then and there I sat down and wrote a letter to Commissioner Smith
upon that subject, to which letter Mr. Hinman added a postscript, indorsing all I had written.
In my intercourse with Mr. Hiiiman I soon discovered that his
views and feelings toward Dr. Saville had undergoiie a complete revolution, and he gave me on paper a long list of items to investigate.
We then separated-lie for the F~ast and I for Red Cloud. On my
arrival there I fonud abundant reasons for his diange of feelings and
opinions, and that Dr. Saville had l~een and was cii gaged, to put it mild,
in many questionable practices. To ]\Ir. Hiiiman, then, belongs the
credit of those discoveries.
On my return from Red Cloud I proceeded almost immediately to
~~ashington, where I again met ~~~r. Hinman. This was in October. 
729
Secretary Delano was absent. N\Te together visited Assistant Secretary
Cowen, explained to him our suspicions and discoveries in regard to the
flour. N\Thereupoll he immediately sent, or caused to be sent, a telegram
to Cheyenne, directing Colonel Long to be re-instated flour-inspector,
and directing him not only to inspect but to weigh every sack.
I also at the same time wrote a letter in regard to the Appleton contract, which contract ~as, I believe, immediately revoked.
I then, at the urgent request of Mr. llinman, accompanied him to New
York to see Bishop liare, for the purpose of inducing the bishop to
take some steps looking to the removal of Agent Saville.  ~Ve made our
statement to the bishop, who, with that fairness and impartiality which
pervade all his words and acts, replied that he thought Agent Saville
should have an opportunity to explain. To this we assented, and there
the matter dropped.
I then returned to ~Vasliington, handed in my report of my inspec.
tion of the Red Cloud agency, and thence to my home.  This was early
in November.
As an item of iiiterest, I might 5~~ that among all the agencies I
have visited in many of the Territories, I have never found but two or
three agents that I thought inefficient, and but one that I thought
thoroughly dishonest.
In conclusion, I would invite your attention to three things in this
letter:
First. You will perceive that the Department of the Interior responded promptly to the two complaints which I b~'ought to their notice
iii persoil, viz, the flour and the Appleton contract.  So that no charge
of indifference or neglect of duty should attach there.
Second. Of the four commissioners sent out to investigate the
~Valker charges, two, and the only two who had any opportunity for
further observations changed their verdict and hastened to repair their
mistake.
Third. My pledge to make good any deficiency necessary to establish
Agent Saville's unfitness for tue place he occupies.  This pledge I am
ready to redeem.  Should you want me for that purpose, please tetegraph nie. Yet I hope you will dee in it nnnecessary, as the papers I
have referred you to, I think, are sufficient.
~~ery respeethilly, yours, &c.,
J.D. BEVIER.
lion. Tllos. C. FL1~TcllER,
Chairni a?~.
After the receipt of the above communication, Professor Marsh expresseJ a desire to examine Dr. Bevier in person, and accordingly be
was called to ~Vashiiigton.
Dr. Bevier appeared before the commi~sion this evening.
By the CllAIRMAN:
(?uestion. Your residence is Grand Rapids, Mich.~?
Answer. Yes. sir.
The CllAIR~MAN. Mr. Bevier, we have your report, made as inspector
of Indian agencies, and we have your letter written us from Grand
Rapids, Mich., but Professor Marsh desires to ask yon some questions
relative to the matter we are called upon to investigate, and he will
~~ow propound his interrogatories. I am not aware myself of U~e particular points upon which the Professor desires information, in addition
to that which you have already given us. 
730
~~ITNESS. Mr. Chairman, I told the Professor what I wanted to say
to you all, and I think it will save time and trouble, name]y, that I would
refer you to my report and letters. They contain all I want to say.
I could not add another word to them, and I think I could not subtract a word from them. I believe my report to be strictly true.  If
I have indnlged in any inferences or suppositions, you may judge of
the correctness or incorrectness of those inferences; but the facts that I
there name are all that I could give to-night or at any other time. I
think that disposes of me eftbctnally and ft~lly, and that my coming here
was unnecessary.
The CllAIRMAN. It may be possible that Professor i~~arsh may be able
to bring to yonr recollectioit something that will be further in the way
of information to us.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. Does your report to the Department-the one which has been
referred to, I think, in Professor Marsh's pamphlet-explain fi~lly the
ground upon which you reached the conclusion-if you did reacit any
such conclusion-that the contract made betweeti Dr. Saville and the
Appletons was a fraudulent contract, or do you assert it to be a frandalent contract?
A. Well, sir, the facts are just as I reported them.  I may infer one
thing, and you another.
Q. Is that the conclusion you draw from it-tb at it was a fiaii~~ule'~t
contract?
A. That was my opinion.
Q. Was that contract set aside at your instance?
A. So I understood. I don't know, but I think so.
Q. Is there anythiiig that you could add explanatory of that transaction beyond what is contained in your report and letters?
A. There is not, sir. I don't know of a word that I could add to them.
I j~resume they are very much fuller than I could give you now from
memory. There is one thing, Mr. Chairman, in my letter to you, which
I think needs a little qualification. At the conclusion of that letter I
invite your attention to three things contained in it, and the second one
is this:
Second. Of the four commissioners sent out to i~vestigate the Walker charges, two, and
the only two who had any opportunity for further observations, changed their verdict, and
hastened to repair tileir mistake.
I want to say that we changed our verdict only so far as it related to
Dr. Saville.
Q. Will you now state to the commission the grounds upon which
you changed your conclusions and opinions, since the date of your report,
in regard to Dr. Saville?
A. I would repeat, I would refer you to my report and letters.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. No, sir; that is not the question.  It is the grounds upon which
you bave changed your conclusions in regard to Dr. Saville since the
date of your report.
A. I have not changed my opinion since I made my report.  My opinion of Dr. Saville remains the same as it was then.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. I speak of the report of the commission of which you were a
member, and of which JSishop llare was chairman. In that report you
have vonched very strongly for the integrity, fidelity, and competency 
731
of Dr. Saville; now you say you have changed your opinion of Di'.
Saville since that time.
A. Oh, yes, sir.
Q. ~Tell, can you not furnish the specific grounds upon which you
1' ave made that change of opinion?
A. They are contained in my report.
(~.Rave you made a report subsequent to that report of Bishop
Rare's commission'?
A. Certainly.  My first visit to Red Cloud agency was in company
with the other members of the commission, of which Bishop Rare was
chairman. Upon that investigation we made this favorable report.
Six months after that I went there alone, in my capacity as inspector,
and then I made an unfavorable report.
By Mr. MARSH:
()~. When you went as inspector you had a better opportunity to ascertain the real state of affairs there.~
A. No, sir; I had no better opportunity, because the first investigation was very thorough and searching.  ~Ve devoted more time to it,
and I bad the aid of able men.
Q. You think the Appleton contract clearly in~c~ted fraud on the
part of Dr. Saville?
A. So it seemed to me.
(?- You state, I think, in your conveisation with Dr. Saville about
that contract, that you noticed prevarication on his part'?
A. Yes, sir; very distinct.
Q. Not direct falsehood?
A. ~Tell, I don't kn~w what you would call it; that w6nld be the
plain English of it.
Q. Then you consider him an u~itruthful man, based on what you saw
at that time?
A. I don't think I would regard him generally or ordinarily as an
untruthful man; but I think just then he was placed in an unpleasant
position, and he squirmed a good deal.  Ris contortions were painful
to witness.
Q. Yon have no doubt he was then stating what was not true?
A. I have no doubt but that he was saying what was untrue.  It
was only in one item; it was in regard to the boarding of the men in the
employ of Appleton. I said to him, "You board those men of Appleton?"
And then, not promptly and squarely, but hesitatingly, he said: "No;
I told Appleton he must pay for their ~~~~~~~~ It was only a moment
after that conversation had occurred, when I sawAppleton passing, and
I called him in; and then, in the presence of Saville, without giving
them any opportunity for consultation, I said to Appleton: "The Doctor
boards your men!"  "Yes," said he, "I told the Doctor he must ration
my men." That is the only item of misrepresentation.  One said one
thing and the other said the opposite, in regard to the boarding of the
men.
Q. You regard the Appleton contract as a whole, fraudulent, do you?
A. Suppose I give you the facts of the Appleton contract, then you
can say whether it is fraudulent or not.
The CHAIRMAN: That is the better way; we want the facts and not
opinions.
WITNESS. Then I will read you what I say about the Appleton contract in my report to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, dated October
23, 1874, as follows: 
732
APPLEToN CONTRACT.
I found no contract actually entered into, but tbe basis for one clearly defined.  Mr. Appleton bad submitted his proposition to Agent Saville, wbicb tbe agent bad forwarded to
your Office, asking your permission to make a contract upon the terms tberein contained,
and recommending the same to your Honor for approval, representing it as tbe best and
inost economical arrangement for tbe Government.
The terms of Mr. Appleton were: for sawing lumber, Agent Saville furnisbing mill, logs,
and engineer, $14 per tbousand, while tbe customary price under such circumstances is from
$3 to $4; for cutting and laying shingles, agent furnisbing logs, mill, cut-off saw,
shingle-machino, and engineer, $10 per thousand, while it was worth from $2 to $3; for
building slaugliter-bouse alone, $450, wbile both slaughter-house and slaugbter-pen is sublet for $150.  For other items and a more full account of tbis transaction, please see my
letter accompanying the Appleton contract.
By Mr. MARSH:
Q. It is your conclusion I especially refer to.
A. Then I read further from my report:
The private manner in which this contract was let, the partnersl~ip of the parties, the
~xorbitant prices, the pains taken to exclude all competition, the looks, manners, and prevarication of the parties, developed dming the investigation, left me no room to doubt the
nature and character of the transaction.
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Do YOU state here, Doctor, what action the Department took on your
report ~
A. Wbeu I came to Washington-and I came almost directly f~~ Washington-I had made no report. I had not my report written; I had only
items for a report. Commissioner Smith, I think, was absent.  Secretary Delano, I tbink, was absent. I met Mr. Rinman here, and we
went to Assistant Secretary Cowen, and this matter was talked over.
Assistant Secretary Cowen immediately took some steps to revoke the
contract.  I went with Air. llinman to New York, and on my return,
I think, I understood from Commissioner Smith, bat I am not quite
ertain, that the contract was revoked.
Q. Did you make any recommendation respecting a change in the
terms of tlie contract, still allowing of its completion on some terms?
A. Yes, sir; in my letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, dated
0ctober 21, 1~74, as follows:
In the morning, feeling unwilling to stop all the work thei~ in progress, I told Mr. Appleton if he would alter his terms and put them down to something near reasonable, and write
a contract accordingly, and forward it to me, I would convey it to ~Vashington, and would
not oppose it.
He said he did netlike to alter his terms, it would look as though he originally designed
to drive a sharp bargain with the Government, and if I would consent to let it remain he
would share with me the profits, &c. I replied, saying that he might change his terms without unnecessarily reflecting upon his good faith, and assign as a reason that, after getting
on the ground and learning more as to the facilities at hand, he could see his way out at
lower rates.
Q. Was tlie settlement made on the basis you recommended?
A. No, ~ir; I think not.
Q. I meant, of course, to inquire whether you made any recommetidation to fl~e Department?
A. This modified contract Mr. Appleton sent me to my residence; a
contract offering to do the work at a little shade less. I made no recommendation, except to wnte this letter.
Q. What was rhe further action of the Depart~ent respecting this
contract?
A. I understood that they had revoked the contract, and continued
the work upon the programme that I bad suggested in a letter to Dr.
Saville, dated in Cheyenne, 0ctober 5, 1874. 
733
(~.~Vhat was that basis~
A. I will read from n~y letter to Dr. Saville, aiid that will show the
l)asis:
Should Mr. Appleton conclude to discontinue liis work on account of the uncertainty of
getting a contract, in h~t case you will make no settlenient with him until such time and iii
such manner as the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs may direct.  You will continue the contract for delivering logs, and the contract with Bnrch to complete the slaughter.
house and pen, and pay him the price agreed upon, viz: $ld(), less what Mr. Appleton may
have paid itim.
You will continue the manufacturing of lumber and shingles, the roofing of the buildings,
the huilding of the corral, and moving and resetting the scales, and select some good man
to superintend the work, and employ such temporary help as may be necessary to carry it
~n. Mr. Appleton will be re-imbursed for any money paid his hands, an& a just and f~~ir
ompensation allowed him for his time and services.
By Mr. FAULKNLR:
Q. N\7hat did you mean by the remark, "bounds and limits~"
A. I mean that the items enumerated in that contract for doing cerain work had fixed prices, and the last clause ill that contract, by which
~r. Appleton agreed to do an indefinite amount of work at a certain
)rice per day, and which could be spnn out to any length of time, might
-)erpetnate his stay there interminably, and I thought his presence there
~i~jectiouable.
By Mr. MARSH:
Q. Di~ you clearly understand Agent Saville to offer to divide with
~ou the profits of this contract if you would not oppose it ~
A. No, sir; he did not say a word upon that subject.  Appleton
uggested that.
Q. Did you clearly understand Mr. Appleton to say so?
A. I do not attach much importance to that remark of Mr. Appleton.
~~e was unwilling to give up the bargain.  fle had a pretty soft thing,
i~nd he thought the suggestion would mollify my objection.
Q. Did he state any definite proposition ~
A. Yes; a certain percentage-I forget how much-of the~proflts.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. llow did you respond, sir, to that proposition to bribe you ~
A. ~Vell, sir, I think I said I did not want any interest in the conract, and I just declined; something like that; I don't remember exetly just what I said; that was about the substance of it.
By Mr. MARSH:
Q. Did Mr. Saville have any relatives at the agency, except his father.
~.law, Mr. Appleton ~
A. Mr. Appleton's son was there; I hardly know in what capacity;
ut I think he was afterward made clerk.  Saville had a brother-in-law,
Ir. Palmer, store-keeper in Cheyenne.
Q. Appointed by hi in, I believe?
A. Yes, sir; Mr. Palmer had his son with him to assist him in the
-arehouse.
Q. In what capacity was young Palmer employed?
A. I think he was assisting his father; but in what detail, I do not
member.  Mr. Palmer was lame; he had a broken leg, and walked
n crutches.  lle was in poor health, and he needed some one to help
tm.
Q. lle received all the Indian gootls that came to Cheyenne, did he
ot? 
734
A. I snppose so.
Q. And they were iii his charge while at Cheyenne?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. FAULKNEP~:
Q. Mr. Bevier, bow often (0id your duties as inspector take you to
P~ed Cloud agency?
A. Once.
Q. llow long were you iii spector
A. A year and nine months.
Q. liow many agencies were subject to your inspection?
A. N\~ell, sir; I went where directed.
Q. ~7ho directed you?
A. The Commissioner of Indian Aftairs.
Q. Did you never visit the agency except by special authoi'ity aud
~~irection of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs?
A. ~o, sir.
Q. ~~hat weic your duties, then-simply to inspect when he told you
to I
A. lle ~~~~ me my instructions as to what my general duties were,
then special instructions to visit certain ageiicies.
Q. Did you visit none of the agencies more than once in the eighteen
months?
A. Other inspectors were engaged all fl~e time, and in inspecting
agencies we would go over a certain district. I would go over a certain
district one summer, and the next summer another inspector wonld go
over the same district, and I would go over the oiie that he had in~pected. We were changed from district to district.
Q. llow many agencies would you inspect in the course of a year?
A. The first summer I had my instructions to visit in Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Idaho, and Nevada. I accomplished the work, and returned late in the fall or abont the 1st of December.
Q. When did you start and when did you return?
A. I started about the 1st of July, and returned late in November or
the 1st of December.  The law says we should visit every ~gency not
less than twice a year. It was not possible to do that, for in the winter
it would be almost or e~itirdy impossible to go to certain agencies.
Then the next summer I visited the agencies in Montana and Dakota,
includingP~ed Cloud and Spotted Tail, which were supposed to be in
Dakota, but by recent surveys are found to be in Nebraska.
Q. Can you give us an idea how the management of i~ed Cloud
agenQy would compare with that of the oflier agencies you tnspected?
Q. Well, sir, in my letter to the honorable chairman a few days ago,
I mentioned as an item of iiiterest fliat many of the agencies I visited
in many of the Territories I have found but two or three agents that
were inefficient, and but one that I thought dishonest, which was a
very good record, as I think, for Indian agents or any other class of
men.
Q. Well, does the one you pronounce dishonest still hold his position
as an agent of the Government?
A. I don't know, sir. I don't think he ought to.
Q. Does he hold it in point of fact, do you know?
A. I don't know. I have heard that lie had resigned. I doii't know
whe ther he is still in office or not.  would further say that those few
agents that I regarded as inefficient, and recommended their removal,
have in every iii stance been removed, as I have reason to believe, thc
Department cordially concurring in my recommendations. 
735
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q.In the ease of this dishonest agent, as you supposed, did you report your suspicions to the Department ~
A.I reported the facts that I had discovered in regard to him and
his administration.
Q.Do you know anything about the subsequent action taken upon
that case in the Department?
A.No; I don't know what was done.
Q.Any action covering the treatment of these charges which seemed
to involve, in your judgment, dishonesty?
A.I have no means of knowing. I left ~Vashington and had no
communication with the Department afterward as to what was done
with tit at report; so what action, if ally, was takeii on it I do not know.
(~. That report was made, then, as I understand you, near the close
of your service?
A.It was`made, I believe, about the last of November, 1874, and I
wei~t home within a day or two afterward and paid no more attentioii
to it, and I don't know what was done on the subject. I had done my
duty, and, as I thought, without prejudice.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.I would like to know how the general administration of the affairs
at P~ed Cloud agency, such as the care of the proper ~ of the Government, the manner of distributing the goods, keeping the books, and
everything of that sort, would compare with the administration of affairs
at other agencies.
A.I think it would compare f~vorably with some and unfavorably
with others.
By Mr. MAR 811:
(~. N\~hat proportion of agencies would bL iiiferior in management to
I~~ed Cloud?                                                    a
A.I don't know; I could not tell. The agencies under the control
of those agents who~e removal I advised were not so well managed.
Q.Should you think it represented fairly the average of the Indian
ageucies ~ou inspected?
A.I think not.
Q ~YiIl you please read the portion of your report referring to the
ows, oxen, and wagons, and state whether or not you have any additional facts upon that point?
A.I would inquire if my suggestion referring you to my report and
letters would not be a sufficient answer.  You will find it all there, and
-t believe the contents to be true. If I am mistaken I cannot help it.
Q.It is rather an important matter, and if you would read that portion of it, and there is nothing to add, you can leave it there.
A.NVell, I will read it:
OXEN, cows, WAGONS, &C.
I next pass to the purchase of oxen, cows, wagons, &c., for the use of the Indians.  iii
Agent Saville's letter-hook I found a letter written to the honorahie Commissioner of Indian
Affairs, dated August 24, 1874, in which he says:
"In accordance with your letter of approval of June 16,1874, my requisition of April 1,
1S74, I have purchased of D. J. McCann twenty yoke of American oxen, four and five years
~ld, at $150 per yoke, and twenty good Durham cows, at $60 per head, and one Durham
mli at.~l00.  As this is to he a basis of a stock of cattle to be raised hy the Indians I have
hou~ht it advisahle to get the host grade of cattle in the market which was not classed as
ancy stock.  I have purchased these after careful inquiry as to the price of this class of 
736
stock in Nebrask~a, Iowa, and Missouri, and I believe [ have got them at as low a price as
they could be delivered at tbis agency.  I bave purchased them in open market, without
advertising for proposals, for the reasoi~ that it was very desirable to get them to the agency
in time to get in hay, and break some land for spring.crops, before too late to do so.  Also,
several families are anxious to have houses.  I wish to set them to hauling logs for their
houses, in order to build them before cold weather sets in.  In my action in this case I
re~pectfi~ily request your approval."
Upon reading this letter I remarked, "I see you have been buying some stock for the
Indians.  ~Vhere are they?"  He answered, "No, that letter I put forth as a feeler.  They
are not yet purchased."  I also called his attention to a letter written F. II. Smith, secretary
of the Board of Indian Commissioners, dated September 5, lS74, in which he reiterates:
"I have the honor respectfullly to acknowledge the receipt of your circular of April 10
1S74, &c.  I have purchased twenty yoke of oxen, twenty cows, ten wagons, aud six
hreaking.plows for those who have undertaken to work this season," &c.
I expressed my surprise, saying, "You have minutely described this stock, their ages,
hlood, quality, and price, and I certainly supposed you had purchased them."  He replied,
"McCann supposed he could purchase them of a party in Cheyenne, but, come to find out,
he could not."  I inquired if he had not issued the vouchers for those cattle.  He said,
"Yes."  I asked him where they were.  He answered he had them, and then he showed
them me.  Inclosed is a copy.  They are dated August 20, 1874, for $6,247, and says,
"that the account is correct and just. the actually purchased were actually necessary for
the public service, and the price as low as could be procured."
On my return to Cheyenne Mr. McCann informed me that he had the opportunity to make
those purchases of a party near Cheyenne, hut, thinking the price high, he had left it open,
hoping to make the purchase upon better terms elsewhere.  Finding himself unable to do
so, he had concluded to take them.  It would seem to be time enough to say they were purchased when they really were  to describe their quality when seen; to state the price when
ascertained; and to make, date, and sign the vouchers, when the property was received.
Q. llad Agent Saville certified to titese vouchers which he showed ~
A. lle had them in his possession.
Q. Do you ki0ow the subsequent history of those vouchers ~
A. No; I got the impression to-day, at the Indian Office, that Dr.
Saville had iuade some purchase of cattle of Mr. Appleton instead of
McCann; finding the Indians very much dissatisfied at not having received their stock, he thought proper, in order not to disappoint them
wholly, to procure a portion of the number which McCann had agreed
to furnish, which he did through Appleton.  The contract required
~[cCann to furnish twenty yoke of working oxen, twenty cows, ten
wagons, and some other articles.
Q. ~~s the same amount of stock p~trchased of Mr. Appleton, as
mentioned it~ this contract with McCann ~
A. I think a less amount.  Commissioner Smith can explain that
matter.
Q. You may remember, perhaps, Doctor, whether McCann said the
factory burned up from which he had ordered the wagons.
A. No- I didn't hear, except merely accidentally.
Q. ~~s the price named in these vouchers a fair price for the stock
as described ~
A. I am not a good judge; but probably the price was fair, if the quality of the stock came up to the description.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q. Did you understand Savilie or McCann to say that they went
together and saw and weighed the cows which it was supposed McCaiiu
would purchase to fill that contract ~
A. McCanu told me he had been to see some stock in the vicinity of
Cheyenne.
Q. You didn't learn whether Saville had or not ~
A. I didn't learn.
Q. Did you learn whether that voucher was ever left by Saville with
his store-keeper at Cheyenne, to be delivered to Mr. McCann, when the
cattle were received ~ 
737
k ~f'~y I answer by asking you a qnestioii? Did you ever learn that?
Q. ~~Vei1, I thiiik I will agree to ai~swer after you have, since fly que.~tion was first.  Did you hear from Saville or from the store-keeper, I
n0e~Ii
A. Not from either.
Q. ~Yell, I (lid.  I was told it was afterward placed in the hands of
tile store-keeper at Cheyenne.  ~Vhether it was true or not, of course, I
don't ki~ow.  It is for you to say here whether you h')vC any information
to coiitradict it.
A. N\~c sometimes get iiiformation in a way we are llOt at liberty to
disclose.
By Mr. ll~~W~':
Q. ~~hat are we to iiifer froin that?
A. N\~ll, sir; I have nothing more to say ill regard to the vouchers,
iiot meaiiing to be abrupt.
Q. Th~t is iiot ibrupt, but it is not an answer to my question.
A. I asked Saville for them, if he had them.  I liad a reason ft~r askiiig the question.  lle said he had.  I asked hi in where they were, and
he brought them to me ill triplicates.  I put one in iny pocket, and
caused a copy to be made.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. That was in September?
A. The last of September-about the 29th of September; but in the
mouth of August, they were unquestionably in Cheyenne, and he never
disputed it.
By Mr. HOWE:
Q. Mr. Harris's question was, whether you liad any information, if I
nudersto~d him, which contradicted the testimoiiy which lie said had
beeii given by Mr. Saville and others touching the purchase of those
cattle and the issuing of the vonchers;`~nd you said in reply to that
that ~-ou sometimes got infori~~ation in a way you were not at liberty to
disclose.
A. I will now say, in reply, that I have not.  Hearsay is not enough
to base testimony upon; therefore, I will say I do not know Cf my own
knowledge.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q. Did you hear anything from Saville to the contrary?
A. I don't remember.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. Your answer conveyed to ine the impression that you had some information confidentially received which you do not wish to give us.
A. That is Ju~t what's the matter.  My informatioii in regard to the
vouchers being absent froiii the agency came to me in a confidential
way, which I do not feel at liberty to disclose.
By Mr. MARSH:
Q. Did Agent Saville's books show any record of this transaction to
which the vouchers refer?
A. I don~t know. I forget.  I don't think I looked.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. In your letter recently received, addressed to the chairman of this
commission, you say, "If your evidence in regard to the agent at tiie
47 1 F 
738
i~cd Cloud agency is insufficient to establish his inefficien~y for the
place, theii I am ready and willing, and I think abundantly able, to supply such defl~~ieiicy." Now, are there any facts that you are able to state,
in a~lditioii to wha~ are contaiiied in your reports to the Department, that
will ~o to show the unfitness of Dr. Saville Ibr the position which he
occupies`it that agency~
A. I give several reasons for his uiifitiiess.  First. His peculiar tern
perameiit renders him unsuitable for that place.  The bitter feeling that
is entertained by the Indians toward hini destroys his influence for good
among them.
By Mr. ATllERTON:
Q. l)o you mean every Indian at his agency ~
A. Every Indian at his agenQy, so flir as I could ascertain, and I
talkeil with a good in any. Red Cloud defined his ch;iracter when he
spoke of his vacillation and h'iru~u-scarun~ way of doing things, and
want of syste1n. Then I thiiik some of those acts to which I have
referred to-night, especially the Appleton coiitract, and I may add the
flour, leave a well-founded doubt as to his ilitegrity.
By Mr. MAR~5ll:
Q. Did Mr. Hiiiman coiiicide iii your view of the ~gent ~
A. ~Ir. lliiiinan was the pioneer that led iiie into this way of thinking.
I have a greit deal of confidence in his saga city aiid goodjudgmeiit.
The CHAIRMAN. Now, I suggest that Professor Marsh go on with his
exainiiiation of Doctor Bevier; tlieii the geiitleinen of the commission
who desire to ask him any questii~ns can (10 50 afterward.
By i~tr. MARSH:
Q. ~Ir. lliiimaii then reversed his verdict in regard to the afflirs at
Red Cloud agency ~
A. Yes, sir, in regard to Dr. Saville.
(~.Ii) auy other respect, that you kiiow of 0?
A. I meau to say that Mr. HiLl inan changed his opinion, not only in
re~ard to his competency, l~nt his integrity.
Q. On your retnru, did not you and Mr. Hinman give this inform a
tion to tlie De;~artment ~
A. Mr. i~farsh, it has been my wish aiid pleasure to protect the Departmeiit, l)elieviug them (leserving of it, from all participation in anythii\g wrong.  I have regarded them as being ii~ht to the core.  In all
Ii)y iliquilies I never dreamed of or suspected tlie Department of participatioii in franils, and have 1)0 reason to.  ~Vhen we came here we reI~orted to Assistant Secretary Cowen in regard to the flour, and he took
prompt action iii the matter.  lie immediately sent a dispatch, or caused
olie to be sent, to Che~enue, and had the matter attended to at once.
Q. Did you also give the I)el)artuieiit iiiforination in regard to the
agent?  I meaii you and Mr. Hinman together.
A. ~Iy recollectioii is that we were t~~getlier, and talked about the
flour and tlie Appleton matter. I don't kiio~' that we said an~ thnig u~ore.
Mr. Hiniiiaii was nrgiilg me to go to New York to see the Bisliol) in regard to tlie question of removal.  He wished to leave that matter in the
Bishop's hands.
Q. Of course, if you and Mr. lliiimaii had serious doubts as to the integrity of the agent, that wo4d be an important point to indicate to the
Department, would it not?
A. N\'ell, sir; I con tented myself with wnting my report, and said
what I thought was my duty to state. 
739
(?.I refer especially to iiift~rmatiou outside of the report, iii which
lliutiitn joined.
A. As I said, we spoke of tlie flour and the Appleton eoiitract, which,
I believe, was pioinptly and properly attei'ded to.
Q. Did you give aiiy other ilifOriflition at~out the Red Cloud ageucy
to tlie Departiiient at that time or subsequeiitIy ~
A. Not that I recollect, except in tlie rel)ort.  I can answer" report"
to`ilaiost every (luestion.  I thiijk it contains it all.
Q. I understood froin ~Ir liiumau that he liad given such information,`ind I only wish to ask you whether it was so ~
A. ~Vhat he said independent of me, I do not kiiow; but in iny preseiice, that is all I can recollect.
Projessor ~IAi?~5fl. I have iiothiiig in ore to ask the witness.
Mr. liARRIS. I an~ asked by ~Ir. Bosler, who sits behind n~e, to put
a few qi~estions to you
Q. "Do you kiiow of any instaiice where Mr. J. W. Bosler, or any of
tlie persons charged with the delivery of cattle f~or tlie coi~trtcts he
represetited, coii~iiiitted flaud or iii aiiy way imposed npoii the Governmeat in the deli~-ery of cattle? "
A. I do iiot.
Q. "From your kiiowledge and observation as an inspector of Iiidiaii
nft.tirs at the agelicies sapplied under the colitracts lie is represeiite~l as
fillino do you tliiiik he would, if aii opportunity aftbrded, engage iii any
frau~ls of the clia~acter charged by Piofessor Marsh?"
A. I think iiot.
Q. "Is it your opiiiion, as tlie result of personal observation, in connectioii with your duties as late insl)~ctor of Indiaii affairs, that Mr.
Bo~~ler aiid liis brothers J. II. aiid George M. have discharged their obligitions as contractors with the Government with fidelity and honesty?"
A. I do.
Thir. BoSLER. Dr. Bevier was inspector of Indian affairs over the dis.
trict ii~ which we delivered cattle, and that is the reason wliy I wished
to make those inquiries.
By Mr. MARSH:
Q. Did you kiiow anyHiin~ about Mr. Bosler's cattle ~
A. In Thi arch and April, iii company with Bisho1) llare, Mr. Hininan, and
ThIr. F. II. Smith. This questioii of cattle was very thoroughly investigLted
to ()ur entire sa~isfaction, and, I believe, with full disposition to give Mr. J.
H. Bosler, who was there and who superintelided the work, our confldenc~
~~~e all coiicurre~l as to liis integrity aiid manliiiess, and even gelierosity.
~Ve rode through a snow-storm with Mr. Bosler au~1 th~ driver, six of
us iii iiumber, from tlie Spotted Tail agency to t!ie herd on the Niobrara,
~iid we slept all night in a dug-out, and examined that herd, and it was
very satisfactory to us.  That was our first visit.  Last fall I went fiom
Sidney partly oti pur~~ose to s~e that herd, aiid also to see tiie road, which
~v~ts said to be a l~etter aiid shorter road to Red Clou~l than the other.
Now, I am iiot an expert atid I ii ever dealt in cattle nor saw them
wei 0-hed but the herd presented to iiie a ~oo(l`     ".  I rode
uhrough them for two hours.  I wa~ favorably impressed with the qualty of tlie cattle. ThQy were unifornily iroin four years upward, as I was
~ol~l; Ido not know the fact otherwise.  There were some cows and but
few young cattle.  I understood it was the custom to have a few ford~nestic purposes.  They were pretty uniform in size and preseti ted to nie
~he appearance of a good quality of cattle  I do ~ot know of an item
0 {~ritidse on that subject. 
740
By ~Ir. llARRIS:
Q. You would say that if such cattle were delivered, of proper weights,
the contract would be fairly aiid lionestLy fulfilled ~
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it ftir to ask you if you have formed an opinion, from  your
knowledge of cattle, what would be the average weight?
A. I could not.  I am iiojndgeof it.  A bitcher could gutess within
a few pounds, but I could not within a few hundreds.  ThQy were fullgrown.
~Ir. SMITH. Dr. Bevier used a word-that he desired to "protect" the
Department, which f did not understaiid exactly; how much he meant
by it; my inipression is that, in his ai~swer to tlie question, he prefaced
it by saying that tie desired to protect the Departuient.
AIr. II OWE. Because he believed they deserved it.
~VITNESS. I forget what drew it our, but I weiit on to say that it was
my wish and pleasure to protect the D~partiiieut because they deserved
it. They deserved being exoiierated floni all participatioI in anything
wrolig.  I in can to say, in explaiiation, that there were parties who
charged fraud and implicated everybody, ftoiii top to bottoni, as I
tliiiik, unjustly.  If fraud and dishonesty is fouiid here and there, as it
will be as long as human nature is as it is, it does not follow that everybody else is participating iii it.
WASHINGTON, D. C.,
Fri~Thji, ~eptember 17, 1875.
Present: llon. THOMAS C. FLETCHER, chairmaii; Hon. TIMOTHY 0.
HOWE, Hoii. B. W. HARRIS, Hon. CHARLES J. FAULKNER, and Prof.
GEORGE W. ATHERTON.
Professor MARSH also present.
TESTIMONY OF F. II. SMITH.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. You reside at present in Washington, Mr. Smith?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Q. You are, I believe, the secretary of the Board of Indian Corn mis
sioners?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you tell us how this Board of Indian C~~mrnissioners is appointed? how the members are usually recommended to the President?
A. I don't know how the origiiial members of the Board were selected;
nor do I know from what source my ow'i selectioii came.  I was appointed a member, I thiiik, early in January, 1874, having never had any
conversation with the President, or Secretary of the Interior, or Commissioner of Iiidian Affairs, either iii regard to that or any other Indian matter.  It was a matter of perfect surprise to me.  I dont know
where the selection came from.  After the resigliation of six of the
o~ginal members, in June following, the various mission-boards of different religious denominatioiis were called to Washington, and the
Secretary of the Interior asked them, severally, to recommend men for
the appointment to fill the vacancies which had been created.  There
was a long consultation on the subject.  It was a matter of a great
deal of deliberation. 
741
Q. Q~onsultation with whoiu ~
A. Between the Secretary and those rel)resentatives of the IIliSSiOflboards; and, I think, two or three of tite membeis of the Board of Co~
inissiojiers still remaining in office were also present.  The Secretary
(lesirOti them to consult, if they wished, their resl)ective constituencies,
and to iion~inate men who wonld be recognized by their owit religious
bodies as representative fl0CI), in whoiti they wonid have ei~tire eonfideiice.
~1ost of the uan~es were seitt in sonic tiiiie afterwards, and after snch
coii snitation.
Q. This is a copy, 1 believe, or is tlie original, rather, of the letter of
resigli;itioii of the members of the old Board?  Shown original letter of
resignation, of which the ft~llowing is a cert~fied copy:]
RESIGNATION or TBE BOARD OF INDIAN coMMIssI()NERs.
[Certificate.]
DEPARTMENT ()F THE iNTERIOR,
U~shington, D. C., &ptcmber 20, 1S75.
I, Columbus Delano, Secretary of the interior, herehy certify that tlie annexed paper is a
true copy of the original on file in this Department, atid that tlie said original paper was received at the Department on the sixth day of June, A. D. 1~74.
In testimony whereof I have herennto set my hand~and caused the seal of the Department
of lie Interior to he nffixed, this 20th d~'y of Septemher, A. D. I~75.
[SEAL.]                                               C. DELANO,
S~cretary of Ute Interior.
Leller of Resignetion.
BO~En or 1NDIAN COMMISSiONERS,
157-.
DEAR SIR: The undersigned, the remaining members of the Board of Indian Commissiotiers ori~inally appointed by you, nuder ilie act of Congress approved April 10, 156&j,
respectftili~ resign the office we have held tinder that appointment.
~Ve caiinot take this step without expressilig otir warm appreciation of the high motives
which have actuated you in the line of policy for the treatiiient of the Indian trihes allnouticed in yonr itiangural message, and of your faithful and persistent adherence to that
policy through murh opposition and in despite of many obstacles, and at the same time
tliankiiig you f\~r your ready and cordial sympathy with the efforts of tlie Board to promote
that policy, aiid the kindly personal consideration which has always marked your iiitercourse
with its menibers.
Yoiir policy has attained by its snccess and tlte manifest righteousness of its foundation
priiiciples, a position in tlie judgment of the right-minded people of the coutitry which it
is hoped cannot fail to render it permanent, nor can tlie evil deeds of iridividnals or small
parties of savages, or the necessity which may arise to pnnish them, condemn tlte humane
and jtist treatment of the Indiaus generally, save in the miiids of those who, on account of
hatred or greed, denounce whatever seems to interfere with their scheiiies.  It is not claimed
that hoiiesty and right-dealing have been secured throtighout all the ramifications of the
Indiati service, but many corrupt practices ii ave been corrected, and enough lias been accomplished to demonstrate that, with proper organization, it is possihie to secure at least as
great a degree of honesty in Indian affairs, as in any other department of tlte Governinen t.
Stinie ot the points where reformatlon is still iieeded were indicated in tlie last aiinual report
of tlie board.
~Ve regret that it is not deemed expedient by the Hon. Secretary of the Interior to urge
upon, tlio present session of Congress the, legislation we rec,ommenQ which would make tlie
Itidian I3iireau iiidependent ot tlie Ititerior Department, with an officer ot high ability at its
head.  T lie ileasure we consider of great importance for the perfection as well as tlie per.
pettiation if the peace policy aiid its economic retorms, and we are glad to know that it
niects 7onr approval.
`~ lii 1st we do not deem it necessary to present all the reasons which have decided us to
resigii, we may state that, should Congress, as indicated in the Indian appropriatioti bill,
wl,iic,h has al teady passed the, House of Representatives, continue the Boaid of Iiidian Coiiiraissioriers, with all tlie  duties imposed by existing laws," and rettuiring in regard to the
examination of tlie accounts, coiitracts, and vouchers, that "all such examinations and duties shall hereafter be performed in the city of Wasliirigtoii," we etiuld not accept the
duty-first, because, under the existing laws, the overruling of tlie decisions of the board
by the Iiiterior Department would frequently render the labor of examining and deciding 
74'2
~pen the acconnts and vouchers as useless as it is arduous and vexatious  and, second, becaijse none of us ca~i remove to ~Vashington City to perform the duty.
Experience bus sho~vii that a board )f Ij~dian coinmissioTiers, clothed with proper authority
and acting in co.operation with the Department of the Intonor, but not under its direction
or control, can hardly preserve harmonious relations with that Department.
On the other hand, a hoard not so constituted and nuder the influence or control of the
Interior or Indian Department, would be a comparatively useless appendage to the service.
Reiterating our entire coiifidence in the wisdoii and justice of the peace policy, our c()uviction of the capacity of the Indiaii to receive all the civilization necessary for their welfare
and the safety of the frontier settlements, and all the christianization needful to their salvati0~0, we desire to express our satisfaction with the progress which so many of them have
already made in this direction, mid our regrets for the necessity which terminates our official
connection with the service.
~T0 have the honor to be, very respectfi'lly, your obedient servants,
FELiX R. BRItNOT.
ROI~ERT CAMPBELL.
NATlIAN BISHOP.
W.  F. DODGE.
JOHN V. l~ARWELL.
GLO. H. STUART.
U. S. GRANT,
Presidrut of the United States.
MAv 27, 1574.
I u~)tice that tite members of the Boar~~ resigriiiig give as a reason that
the Secrettiry of tiie Interior woulti iiot nrge llJ)O~ Coiigress tite creatioll
of (111 I1)diitfl Btirea~ indei)endetit of the Interior Departinetit.  I iiotice,
(1150, tit at these cornutissioners, iii resigiting, s~y that there li~s aireidy
piissed the IIon~e of Reprcsetttiitives a law in regard to tite exatttiii;ttiot~
of itecontits, cotitricts, (.111(1 vou~hers, requiriitg all such exaniitiatiott aitti
~luties hereifter to be lierfortiteti iii Ilie city of ~Nas1iiitgton, atid say they
could itot accept that duty.  Now, as you were ~ member of the board at
that titiie, can yon tell if these were tite reasott.~ govert)ittg titegeutleinen
who re~igtted at tit at time, or do you kiiow of aity other reasoits ~
~Y. No reasons were comn~untcttted b~ them  to me other thati titose
th;tt appear ill tiltit docutiteitt.  Being a i~ettiber of the Board at the
ime, of tourse n~~ attention ~ (15 dta~~ it t() the stibIect, and tite two
reasoits given in tile letter created some stirpuise oil itiy part.  The one
res~tecting the Bureau of Indian Aftili'S being made a separate depart
iiteitt of the (;overniitent I find, oji exainiiiation of the tecords of' the
Board previous to iu~ coinilig tit to it, was ii ever brought before them
formally.  It ~as itever before theiu after itt.y coiiitectioit with ttie Board
(hid before their resignatioti, Cit 1) er foriitall~ or JitforIntily; and therefore I say it cret ted surprise Ott itty part tit at it should it ave beet givell
as a reason for titeirresigitatioti.
Q. Do you kitow an~ thittg of their havitig conferred with the Secretary of tite Ititetior ill. regard to it~
A. I learned unofficially that tite president of tite Board, ~Ir. Brutiot,
subsequent to the last meetitig held i)y tlteitt,~was persoitally iii ~~TasIi
in gtoit atid held ati interview with tite I~resident oil that suhject, in
which he ~~ersonaily urged that legislation; and as tit at is itot testimony,
I might as w eli ad~i the other part of it; that theI~re~ideiit stibseque utly
inforitted i~Ir. Brtitiot {h('tt ttie pl;tn (li(l uteet with tite api)rovai of the
Secretary of the Jitterior.  In resi)ect to tite other reas~tt mentioned by
is          a        was                        tidian approi)rlayou, it  true that  clause      ititrodttcetl itito tite I
tioti bill, as it passed the House of Represeiitati~ Cs, requiriitg flie exaniination of vouchers by tite executive committee of the floard ill NYasliington.  But it is also true that se~eral weeks, I should sa~, prior to
that date of resigitation, the cia it se itad bee it stricken out by the coininittee of tite St it(ttC.  I atu quite SitiC the Senate il(itl acted upon it, and
rejected it, attd I know iii personal couvet'satiou abotit the time, with 
743
n~embers of the Sen~te and llonse con~mittees, I learne~ it was not being
pressed by anybody.  it never i~ecarne a law.
Q. And is not now a law?
A. And is not 100W a law.
Q. I filid in the newspapers, under date of February 20, 1874, an Associated Press dispatch, of which I ii ave here a copy, whidi copy you have
seen, I believe; you can look at it, ~handing witness copy, as follows:j
MEETING OF TIlE BOARD or INDIAN COMMISSIONERS.
~T~5i'~~q~~~, February 20.
The Board of indian Commissioners have been in session at the Arlington Hotel for the
past two days.
All the members are in attendance except ~Ir. Ge~~rge H. Stewart, of Philadelphia.
The special ol~ject of the nieetilig was to con~ider the indian qnestion, as it reiat~s to the
proposed legislation lookiug to ilie opening of the Indian territory, and the question recei~tly discussed in regard to a transfer of the Indian Bureau to the ~Var Department, as welt
as soii~e details of indian mai~agement submitted to the board for their consideration.
A protracted conference was held last evening and to. day with the Secretary of the interior as to the general Indian question.
It developed the fact that tlie views of the hoard with reference to Indian affairs were
fully in accordance with those held by the Secretary, and, after a free interchange of views,
it was apparent that the board are unanimously of the opinion that in the maiiagement ot
Indian affairs they have tlie satisfactio~i to claim the nios  encoura~iIig results of tlie peace
policy: that they see in the wilder tribes a steady improvenient, aiid that a continuation of
tlie preseIit policy will soon result in bringing tlietn under perfect coiitrol and subuiissien to
all reas~~nable requirements of the (;overnrnent.
Tlie cordial relatioiis existing between the Board and the Secretary of the interior, a~id the
coi~ridence in his interest in the present policy, and his success in nialiaging affairs in the
past, w~~uld lead them to deprecate any change transferring the management of indian
affairs to any other Departuient of the Government.
Q. NYill you state, if you know, by wltou~ that dispatch was prepared?
A. This copy was n~ade at your request, in the office of the bO('tFd, a
day or two since, from a scr~p-book left by the late secretiry, Mr. Cree.
Tlie history of it is this: At the last Iileetiiig ever held by the old Board,
a Specill liJeetitig abont that date, in [~e bruary, the proceetliiigs were
all i14 executive session, coI)ti1initig for two days.  At the close of the
ineetilig it was said that some staten~eiit of it ought to be made ft)r tlie
public.  That dispatch was drawn by the secretary of the Board, was
read over to the meiiibers of the board in sessioii, some chaiiges made
at their instaitee, and it was giveli to the Associated Press by myself, in
accordance with their inform al direction.
(~.Then I untlerstand this was made with the knowledge and consent and approval of the Board, and was seiit out with their approval?
A. Yes, sir.
By ~Ir. FAULKNER:
Q. llow long was that before their resignation?
A. The date of that is February 20; their resignatiou was the 27th
of May.
By the CHAiRMAN:
Q. Mr. S~itli, I believe you were one of the members of the commission to exainiiie into tlie affairs of i~ed Cloud and ~Vhetstone agelicies,
called tlie Bishop liare commission, were you not?
A. Yes, sir; I was directed by tlie Board of Indian Commissioners,
at the last meeting iii February, to go to that ageticy aud exaniiiie generally into its affairs.
Q. N\hetstone?
A. Red Cloud and N\~hetstone, I think.
Q. From iii form ation in your possession which you have been able to 
744
gather since that time, as secretary of this Board aiid as member of the
ho'~rd and otlierwis~, have you hid such evidej~ces as to in~luce yon to
chinge your views and 01)iIiious as contained iii that rel)ort ~
A.No.
Q.~~hen you were at the N\~hetstone agency (lid you see the beefcattle in the contractor's herd there?
A.I was j~resent with tl~e other members of H~e commission at the
reception of a lot of cattle from the contractor while they were weighed
ind issued, and also with them visited tlie contractor's large herd, some
thirty or forty miles distant.
Q.Did yon see aiiy cattle there that had beeti received by tlie corn missary or the military authorities for the use of tite iiiilitary I)osts?
A.Yes; I visited the military herd at one of these agencies, I am
not sure which, espe~~ially with a ViC\V of coin~)aring them with those
provided for the Indians.
Q.flow did they compare ~ N\Tere the cattle for the Indians as large
an~l in as good condition as those ~
A.The military cattle were very much inferior to tlie Iiidian cattle
at that time.  The military forces had recently conic there, aiid the comniissary stated that the cattle had been driven froni FO~t':L~~'ii~~C  Biit
they were a very i)oor lot of cattle; so tue large aiid some very small,
but ill of them very poor and very gaulit, iiot coniparing at all with the
cattle that were supplied at that tinie to the Indians, iii respect to size
and conditioii.
Q.Those supplied for the Indians were superior both in size and condition?
A.Yes, sir; the number that the military had was not large; I
should say a couple of hundred.
Q.You were, during last year, a member of the purchasiiig committee of tlie Board of Iiidiaii Commissioiiers, were you not ~
A.No; I atteiided the general lettings in New York. There was no
purchasiiig committee at that time. There were but four members of
the old Bo'ird then iT) existence, aiid tlie reorgaiiization liad only taken
place so far as to appoint tile executive committee, of which I was
chairman.  The four members of the Board were all iiivited to go to New
York, and I weut as a member of the Board, iii co~inecfion with the annual lettings.
Q.Aiid you were rhere present at the lettii~gs?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.~Vill you tell us how inspectors of Itidian annuities were chosen
at that time?
A.~1r. Turney aiid myself were tlie oiily members of the Board of Indiaii Con inissioners preseiit.  Tlie Cointiiissioner of Indian Aftairs, Assistant Secretary of the Inte~or, (Ucueral Cowen,) and Assistant Aftorney.(4eneral for the Interior Department, (Walter H. Stiiitli,) were present,
and the selection was made by all those preseiit. The two members of the
Board were i'ivited to designate persons as inspectors. The matter being entirely new to both of us,`V C felt some euibarrassrnent.  I remeinber that I suggested, ill i'espect to dry-goods, that A. T. Stewart should
be called upon to recommend some oiie for whom he would be willing
to be ie~~onsiUe, and that was done.  I think I suggested the name of
~~Ir. Og(lCii, whom I liad never seen, but kiie w by reputation as the principal~man of, I suppose, the ~largest clotlting-iiouse in New York, for
clotiiiiig.  I s~lected i~ir. Robinson for tobacco, whoni I had ne~ er seen
or Ii card off, from inquiries amoiig probably twenty or thirty large
tobacco-houses on Water street, which I visited at ratidoin for the pur 
745
pose of getting them  to desigiiate some one whose reputation iii the
tn~t~e was well cuough established to be relied upon. I tli1.uk those were
tl)C oiily oiies suggested by me.  The otl~ers wel~e suggested by the other
meiiit~ers of the con~missioii; I cannot state whom.  I was subseq~eiitiy
callcd oil by the Commissioner to designate 10 ames of parties wiio should
act`~s ioispectors of supplies at distant points, au~1 b~ing entirely nufalililj'ir with the whole su~oject at that tiiiie, I requested that wherever a
inilitaiy statiou haviiig a military depot was iii the viciiiity of a poilit of
reception for Indiat goods, the ~~Tar 1)epartmeiit stiould be calIe~l upoli
to diiect that commissary to inspect the Iudiaii goods, which I thinkwas doiie in each instance.
Q.  ~~as your atteiition or the attention of your Board ever called to
tlie fi~ct of the treaty provision for the appoiiitment of such aii officer
by the President?
A.  I doii't think tlie attention of the Board was ever formally called
directly to this treaty provision, nor had I the impressioii uiiUl ilow
that it covered aiiythiiig beyond the direction tijit an Army officer
should be present at the distnbution of aiinnity-goods.
By Mr. FAuLKNL'R:
Q.  ~~on ieferrcd a fe~ moments since to a report prepared, I think,
as you say, by yourself.
A.  By the secretary of the Board at that time, ~1r. Cree.
Q.  NVliich, you say, expressed at that time tlie seiitiinents of the
boai'd, as appears upon tlie face of that dispatch?
A.  I stated it was prepared by their direction, and informally assented
to after beitig read aiid revise~l, all the iiieinbers loeiiig l)resent.
Q.  Do you know what produced suclo a change ii) the opiilions of the
members of that Board from February to May as to cause them to resigii
their cominissioii, or, at least, so niaiiy to resigi) their position on that
Board iio the May followitig?
A.  I have no inforiua(ioii on that subject which would be more than
tl~e ii~erest iiifereiice.  I know what were tlie official transactioiis betweeii floe Board of Commissioners and tioc executive committee of the
BOild of &~otnmissioners aiid the Indian Department; and tliiiik I could
safely say that no new question arose after that time about which any
frictioio occurred.
Q.  You wilt iootice in that dispatch that tlie board hid a consultatioii at that time about the tn~nsfer of the Indian Bureau to the ~Var
Dej)artmcnf.
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Did that result, so far as you know, fioni any waiit of coiofidence
oli the part of tlie Board in the Secretary of the Iiiterior?
A.  No, sir; the Board were as uiiaioinoously aiod strongly iii opposition to float transfer as it would be possible for iii cii to be.  The B~)'ird
was called together mainly in consequeiice of what seeined to be a very
strolig effort made in Gongress to t~rocure the transfer to flie ~V ar Deparfiiieut, aoid for tlie ~~urpose of conside~ng what measures they could
take to deft~at the transfer.
Q.  Then I understand ~ on to sa~ tlie Board was oi~ favor of separat
ing the Indian Bureau from the Interior Department, by creating out of
it aii oiidepeiid~iot Depaitment of the Go~ernnocnt?
A.  T~iat iioatter is referred to in the letter of resignation.  My stateniciot was that it never came before the Board for consideration in any
shai)e ol for no.
Q.  I understand you to say the President of the United States, so far 
746
as you learned from mere rumor, and the Secretary of the ruterior were
both iii favor of the separatioii of ti~e Indi~n ~nreau from the luterior
De}~artment.  Can you, tlieii, accoui~t for a body so resl)ectable as the
Bo~rd of Commiss'oners p]a~~iiig their resigliation ~I)Oi) their inability to
accompli~li that result when they had influence at that time iii favor of
their position?
A. No; it seems to me impossible that they could really have given
that a ~~rious coiisideration in determiniiig their resigIiatioii.
Q. ~Iay not that have been the subject of discnssioii frequeiitly between them before y()n became a meniber of that Board?
A. Iiiforiiially it iiiay have.  I ii ave the records of the Board ill my
oflice, aiid I examined theiii to ascertaji whether it ever was so formally.
Q. ~Vell, so tir as it became the subject of informal discussion in the
Board, what was tlie leadiiig view taken of the reason why there should
be this SepiritiOll of ttie Indiai Departiueiit from the Iiiterior Dej~art
meiit?  ~~(`i'~ it fouiided u~)on a waiit of confidence in the Secretary of
tlie Iiiterior?
A. I heard very little it~formal conversation on that subject.  The
reasi)1is given in that conversatioii were iiiaiiily tlie i~ni)ossibility of
gettiilg for (?oinniissioiier of Indian Affairs, with the sniall salary and
subordiiiate Ilosition held by' lii iii, a iiian of tlie at)ility which, ill their
judgment, was required to be at tlie head of so importaiit a braiicli of
the service.  The opiiiioii w'ts expressed that there should be no divided ies~~otisibility; that the head of the Indiaii I)epartment slionld be
resi~onsible for the conduct of the Indian service, aiid that he should
hold such a position as would coiiiinand tlie service of a very able inaii
for it.  I ii ever heard any want of confldeiice in tlie Secretary of the
Interior given as a reason for that proposed change, directly or indirectly.
Q. ~Yell, was tl~ere not a great deal of dissatisfactioii created in that
Board by the fact that the Secretai~ of' the Interior 1) id paid or or~lered
to lie paid half a million of accouiits that tlie Bi~ard had rejected for
reasoiis satisf'~ctory to them?
A. That questioii is pretty fully discnsse~l in the a~innal rel)ort of the
Board for 1873, iii which ~lissatisfactioii is expressed aiid flie coiidition
of flie niinds of' tlie iuembers of the board iiiore clearly aii~l fnll.y expressed, probably, tliaii it would be possible ~br nie to state it now.
Q. You refer 115 to the rejiort, theii, as an answer to that question?
A. Yes, sir; tlie rel)ort was not published until Fel~rnary.
Q. Have you`iny kiiowledge, as a member or secretary of the Board,
of any unf~'~irness of tlie Secretary of the Iiiterior iii the award of contracts for Indiaii supplies?
A. No, sir. Oii the coiitrary, the Secretary has apparently studiously
kept aloof froiii l)articipating iii or interfering ~ith tlie awards.
Q. ~ou ha'e sai~l illeady you lia~e ne~er, siiice the report in which
yon concurred with Bishop Hare iii 1873, had aiiy reason to change tlie
opition ~hich you there exj~ressed iii regard to flie nianageinent of that
agency, or the coiiduct of the agent.
A. No; I did not say that.  I think the aiiswer did not cover so niuch
ground as that.
Q. I put the questioii now ~u this form: Has anythiiig occurred since
the date (if U~ar report which has modified or changed to any extent
the opiiiions which you foi'ii~ed aiid expressed as to tlie nianagement of
the 1~e~l Cloud agency aiid the lioiiest administration of tlie agent?
A. Nothing' that I know officially.  Iii common with the public, my
mind ha~ been a good deal distuibed by the ne~~paper and othet re 
747
ports of charges.  I have bee~ waiting anxious]y for the ver~lict of this
CO1iiifli55~Oll on tl~at subject.  I d()11'L think I have any inforniafion
which you have not in a great deal fuller and more reliable form.
Q.flave yojj bad ai~y opportui~ity personally, since tl)C date of the
report, ~r forming all opinion based npoii at)y facts connected with the
agen~y?
A.I doii't tbiiik I have, except ill the mere routine business of the
oflice, whi(h has been ill the ordinary way.  I have seeii the agent and
coiiv~rscd with hi in, and have seen a good ina!)y persoi~s who have been
there, and I stopl)(~(l a day or two a{ Cheyei~ne on iny way to the Pacific
last fall; was in Nebraska last spflng, aiid heard a great n~aiiy n~iiiors
which tended to nnsettle my mitid, but iiothing in regard to which I
would be justified iii foriniiig ai) 01)iiliOll oiie way or tl~e other.
Q.Cau you state whether aiiy purchases were made of blai~kets of
the ~iission ~~~oolen ~1ills iii Caiiforiiia witl~iu the last twelve moi~tl~s?
A.No, I caniiot.  Tlie contract was made Sumli)er before last, by Mr.
J. ~~. Farewell, of the purchasii~g~coinuiittee of this l3oard, with the Mission ~1ills, for blankets, clothii~g, and other articles, for the In~Jiaij service
oii the Pacific coast.  Iii coni~ection with Mr. J. I). Laiig, a meiiiber of
the board, I visite~t the Pacific coast last fall, at tlie request of tlie Dcl)artiiJeat, for tlie purpose of atteiidiiig to such i)urcliases as were required.  The contract of Mr. Faiewell with the Missioii Mills for most of
the articles covered an~ouiits st~fflcient to.u~eet all therequireinelits of the
service for that year, and ~~ niade no coiitracts for these articles, but (lirecte~l tlie local insl)ector ior ai)y articles iii regard to which excess might
lie required t() sn~~ply them by extendiiig the Farewell cotitracts.  Iii
resl)ect to the blankets, however, I think that was not done.  The Farewell coiitract covered, I think, netrly all tlie blankets re(lnired for that
year, and, as I have leariied since, the balance of tlieiii were purchased
by tlie iii spector at Saii Francisco of aiiotlier ~iarty.
(?. ~Vell, have aiiy blankets been bonglit fi'()iii the Mission ~N~ooieii
Mills of Califoriiia this year for the use of the Iiidian tribes t~
A.Tlie coitracts this year were let after advertisciucut by Mr. Barstow, of tiie Board of Coinmissioiiers.  I have never seeii the iwirds,
but iny recollection is that tlic blaiikcts were awaided to tlie Missioii
Mills.
&~. flave you seen a statement in the p;ipers th;it the ageiit of tlit
Thiission ~~~oolen Mills of CaliFornia, when receiitly iii this city, said that
the ~~erson`vlio w;is sent to California to pui'cliase lilaiil~ets for tlie Indians made that coiiipany pay hiu~ $l,2()() in gold belore lie would
make tlie purchase of blankets?
A.I h ave seen~that statemyit, and have written to San Fniucisco to
ascertain, if possible, to what it refers.  I have not myself the remotest
ideL.
Q.Non have no knowledge, theii, of any such traiisaction?    it, at
A.~o, sir, there was no possibility of it; it had no tiuth iii
any rate, iii reference to any traiisa~tion of last year, because there was
no traiisaction with tlie ~fissioii Mills on which aiiy such matter (~onld
ha~ e possibly beci based.  I (1(111 t suppose the eiitirc purchase iliout
which we had any discretion an~onnted to ~~,()()(), probably not ~5()().
It ~as merely tlie directioii of the agent to extend the old coiiti'acts for
any sin all supplies that might be require~I of any particular articles.
Q.Do ~ou know ho~ tlie dothing of the Pawiiee Indians has been
purchased this year, whether by contract or iii open niarket?
A.Yes; I know how it lias been puichased, but a statement woul~1
be in ore satisfactory it I shonld make one giviiig the entire purchase
for the Pawnee Nation. 
74S
Q. Well, sir, make your own answer.
A. Unnug the la~t seasot~, the Pawi~ee Nation, as I un~~erstand, without the consent of the Dei)artmciit, ([ aiu 1)Ot sure ahout that, however,
left their agei)ey in Nebraska a'~d reiiioved suddei~ly to the Iiidiaii Territory, were absent 011 the plains (l~riiig the winter oil a buffalo hunt.
Al)out two or three days, perhaj~s, befi~re tlie n~]jouinment of Coiigiess,
they returiied, and the staterneiit ~~~1ll~ to ~~~ashington thit they were
there, iii the ueighborhood of 2,000 of them, without tbod, without clothing, shelter, or any 1)rovisioll for their snpI)ort. Coiigress adjoiiriied
without making any provisioli for them. After the adjournment (I state
now fi~m official records in my 1)ossessioii) iii consultation between tlie
President, flie Assistant Secretary of the Iiiterior, and Commissioiier of
Indiaii Aft~irs, the Presideiit directed that i)rovisioii should be nude if
possible i'or their sul)port, until an al)propriatioii by law should be available. Later Oil iii the sprilig, in coiiiiection with Couoinissioiier Robert~
one of the Indian (`omniissioners, aii~l a member of the Lxecutive Coinmittee of the Society of Friends, nuder whose care tilOSe Indians were, I
was requested by tlie I)epartnient to go to the West and see what provisioli could be made. Tlie Secretary of the Iiiterior wrote a letter oil
the s~ibject, which I can furnish you if you desire, iii which lie stated the
facts that Congress had made no approliriation, that no purchases coul~
be made for which the Goveriimeiit coul~l be liel~l resp~~nsible, directly
or iiidirectly, but if persoiis could be found who were willi'iig to relieve
those suftbriiig people, depending upoii tlie justice of a Christian governiiieiit-I think that was about tlie expression-well and good. Mr. Roberts and myself speiit a great deal of time, a great deal of travel, and
a great deal of eff~~~rt, very embarrassing and discouragiiig eftbrt, in getting all sorts of supplies for them.
Q. Then, you made the i)urchase rel~'iiig on the generosity of the Goveriiiiieiit to saii ctioii the "`hole proceeding?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You may state, Mr. Smith, what were the prices you had to pay
for those art{cles, nuder the circumstai~ces.
A. Tlie price for every description of purchase made was c~~iisiderably above that for which the articles could have been obtaiiied for
cash, and it was very difficult, iii deed, to fiiid anybody who woul~l furnis  tlie supplies required for any price.  Iii respect to coilig, diy
goods, and two or tlii~ee other articles, they were the last I)rovided for
we obtained thein from the successful t~id~lers in the New York letting.
~~ e liad considerable difficulty iii induciiig the parties iii each case to
supply the goo~ls, bi~t we had beeoiiie perfectly discourage~1 and tired,
and we urged that iiiasniuch as they had large contracts "ith tiie ~overnnieiit for cash, that they could aff\~rd to furnish tlie coni~)aratively
sniall amounts required lor these licople, aiid take their chauces for their
p~y.
By Mr. II OWE:
Q. Complete the history; it is all new to me.  State what was the
amount ol the purchase foi clothing, and ~~hat was the advance above
contract prices, if you remember.
A. I cannot state with any precision.  I should say the amount was
from five to eight tliousan~l dollars, aiid tli at the advance was about
t'~ ent~ -fi~ e per cent. The estimate made was that the parties would
have to wait at least a year aiid a quarter.  Supposiiig Congress iiiade
an approl)flation, it w~uld be in a deticiency bill about the close ot' the
next session of Coiigress. 
749
By the CHAIRMAN:
Q.Did you find in the ~Vest disineliuation on the part of persous to
fiiri~ish those goods on account of ti~e stateiiient that considerable
iiumbers of vouchers were held iii ~he ~Vest depeiiding for their paylnelit
upon deficiency appropriations, which have beeii a long time delayed ~
A.Tii (`it objection was n~ade by 1)arties who have been in the habit of
dealiiigwith the (yoverijment generally.  Iii Saint Louis, for iiistance, we
called in the first plice upoii ~1r. Robert Canii)bell, fornierly a iiieniber
of the board, and known as a niaii having an exceediiigly large bn~iiiess
acqn'iintaiice and experience ~[i that city. ~Ve laid the case flilly before
hi iii and asked his assistance in obtaiiiing some of those articles iii SLilit
Louis.  ~Ve had a very long coiisultation with liim, the result of which
was that he exi)resse(l the opii)ion, iii the most;)ositive manner, that it
would be in~possible for us to make those purchases at any price, and
lie gave 1 recollect, among others, the reasoii you state.
(?. Now, jMr. ~mith, 1 want to ask you in regard to this: Professor
~~arsh says that "F. II. Smith, N. J. Turney, and C. D. Loiig, of the
Bo'~rd of Iiidian Coin inissioners, assisted in making purchases of alinnity
goods and retaiiied no saiiiples by which the character of their I)urcliases
could be subsequenHy tested aiid published no report of their action."
is that true?
A.N\~hatever report was pnblished is in the body of the report of the
Board of Iiidian Commissioners of last year. It is true that ~Ir. Turiiey
aiid myself were present duriiig those lettings as the only represeiit`atives of the Indiaii Commissioiiers.  It is true, as I have stated, that
the whole thing was perfectly new to nie, both the prices, the articles,the
comJ~inations of parties who had beeii before engaged in contracts, and
everytliiiig about it.
Q.1)i(l you retain 110 samples of the purchase?
A.I don't know whether they w('re retained or not.  I was in New
York for three or four days duriiig the lettings, but was not aware at
tile time thilt I had any duty to perform iii cotinectioii with the samples.
Q.Is there any law or regulation of the Department or of your Board
that provides for how these samples shall be retaiiied, and by whom?
A.No, sir.  ~Iy recollectioii is that tlie Department followed what
liad been the custom before that time of sending the saniples forward to
tlie inspectors, who were to receive the goods at the other etid of the
line, to enable them to judge whether proper goods were delivered or
`lot.
Q.Do you know whether the inspectors who inspected at New York
retained samples ~
A.I don't know.
Q.Are you aware of any law or regulation that required you to publish a Jeport of your action iii those purchases?
A.No, sir; the purchasing committee of ttie board prior to that time
liad a custom of publishing a report of their operations with the annual
rel)ort of the board.  For the main portion of that year the purchasing
conimittee of the board consisted exclusively of iiieinbers who had discoiifiiiued their coiinection and left no report or rec~rd of their proceed.
ings. At this time there was no ~)urchasiiig committee.  The board had
not re organized to the extent of appointing a purchasing committee, and
as a matter of course, there was 110 report of a purchasing coniinittee,
and the office which aiiy members of the board performed in that regard
was so inconsiderable, it was not deeiiied advisable to make a separate
report on that subject.  In answer directly to your question, I will say
I am not aware of any law requiring the publishing of any such report. 
750
Q. Can you state whether th~ purchasiug committees previous to that
time 1i('~d made any writtei~ report of their action'?
A. Yes, sir; it had beeu their custom, but as I stated, the members
of the board constituting the pureliasilig coiiiiuittee for tlie inaiti i)ortion
of the ye'Lr had resigiied their positions as members of the board, and
left no records from which to make up such a report.
By Mr. MARsll:
Q. You stated, i~Ir. Smith, that when you were at Red (~~1oud agency
the cattle you saw in the hands (~f tlie military were much iiiferior to
the cattle you saw issued to the Ijidians.  Do you ki~ow where those
cattle that you saw iii tlie haiids of the ti~ilitary can~e floii~ ~
A. I remember askii~g that questioli from ti~e comlLlissary, and also
the price; but I c~nnOt recill his aiiswer`is to where tiie~ ~`itn~ fiom. I
remember he said he gave $40 ai)iece for them.
Q. Do you kiiow that these cattle were not borrowed of the agent,
and c~me out of the agency herd?
A. All I know is the statei~ent of the colunlissary, who said he purch~sed them before the iiiilitary moved up, aiid he gave $4() apiece for
them.
Q. Do you know anything about what he said there concerning the
niilitary, on their first arrival, borrowiiig cattle of' the agent from the
agency-herd and subsequently retnrl0ing them?
A. I don't think I do.  It is possible that I may have heard that fact,
if it is a fact.  I don't recollect it iiow.
Q. Are you sure that these cattle you saw in the hands of the miiitai-y were not taken froin the agen~'~-herd, or have you no definite information on that point?
A. I ain sure of the statement, to which I refer, of the commissary,
because the coiidition of the cattle and the ~lispaH'ty of the price between these aiid the Indian cattle made a speci~il impression upon iiie.
Q. Then you refer to the acting commissary at the post at that time
for iiifi~rmation you have oli that point?
A. Yes; I do~i't even recall his iian)e.
Mr. HARRIS, (to Professor Marsh.) Professor, have you any proof in
the evideiice that there was an exchange of that kind?
Professor MARsll. I h ave.
~Ir. IlARRIs. You ii ave not furnished it to us.
Professor MARSll. I can give you some information on that poiiit.
Q. NVheii was it you were at the agency,`Mr. Smith?
A. It was at the time I was there with the Bishop Hare commission.
The report itself gi~-es tlie exact dates.  I do not recall it.
Q. T~iat was the only time you were there, and that was the time you
saw those cattle, of course?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember liow long the military posts had been there at
that tinie?
A. Only a few days; certainly less than a month.
Q. Are you acquaiiited with the Hon. Mr. Hawes, of Nebraska?
A. I doii't recollect any such gentlemait at all.
Q. Made no purchases of hiin or iii coniiection with him of Indian
goods, or had aiiy busiiiess trans-ictioiis with him?
A No, sir; eci-tainly not personally.  If I have been connected wfth
any commission that has made such purchases, I am iiot aware of it.
By Mr. ATllERi~0N:
Q. Do you refer to Mr. Hawes, who ran as the contingent member of 
751
the house in Nebr~ska, but who was not admitted to a seat because
Nebr~ska did not get all additional rnen~ber, and is now in business ill
New York City??
A.I suppose lie is the man.  I do not know him at all.
By Mr. llARRIS:
Q.Did you pay any attention to the sdection of the tobacco for the
Indians in that year, as I understand this was July, 1S74 ~
A.Yes, sir.
Q.N\That pait did you take in the selection of that article ~
A.An inspector, whose name I do Hot recollect, was designated.
Q.Bobiuson?
A.No. An inspector was desigiiated, who exainiiied the samples and
made an award.  Later in the same day, when his award came to be
know ii, I found`considerable excitement`among tobacco-men who had
made the bids and flirnished samples, and allegations of unfairness
were made that impressed iiie so much, that I suggested a new examination should be ma~le; in accordance witli which, not knowiiig a single
tobacco- iii an in New York City, I went down to \\Tater street, among the
tobacco-dealers, at random7 made inquiries of probably twenty or thirty
houses as to where I could find a man whose character as an expert in tobacco was sufficiently established to be absolutely reliable.  Several persons referred me to a Mr. l?~obinson, and, having his name, I madevirious
other iliquiries in regard to his character, and concludcd he was a safe
man, <`ind found him and introduced myself to him, and brought lii in up
to the ware-room. lie re-examined all the samples, an~l made an`tward
of two samples, which were different from those tlie other iiispector had
selected, aiid which we' finally adopted.
Q.Do you recognize this sample furnished us by Mr. I~obinson as in
any respect like either of the qualities of tobacco which you selected?
[Sample shown.j                    -
A.No; I am not an expert in tobacco myself; it is about the same as
to the general size, and color, and appearance.
Q.Did you, or did he, select tobacco (?f that color aiid size?
A.lie selected two samples; one about this color and size, and the
other very much lighter.
Q.There is a sample of the tobacco taken by the Commissioner in the
warehouse, said to be of the sup~~ly of 1874.
A.I could not give an opinion that would be of any value as to its
quality.
By the CilAIRMAN:
Q.Mr. Smith, can~you tell ns who directed the purchase of Navy plugtobacco for tlie use of Indians last year or at any other time?
A.The award is made at the annual lettings, by officers of the InFiiaii Department, in connectioii with the members of the Board of in(tian Commissioners, for supplies required for the entire Indian service.
Q.There are samples of various kinds of tobacco presented upon
which bids are offered, I presume?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Now, in determiniiig that bid, is it governed solely by the price, the
~arties acting for the Iiidians selecting, that which is chcai~est, without
~efereiice to the parti~~ular class of tobicco it belongs to, whether Navy~lug or natural leaf?
A.The question to be decided is, whether one class of tobacco at a 
752
parti~~ular price is to be preferred over aiiother sai~pie at another price;
the quality, the qna'I(ity, and I)rice in each C('i5C to be taken into consideration.
Q.Do they take iii to consideration that the I~dia~ does llOt chew tobacco at all, but smokes it?
A.Yes, sir; ai~d also that lie smokes it mixed ~vith killikinick and
large portit~ns of other niaterial.
Q.~Vho deteruiined the fltct that this black Navy tobacco WiS snitable
for snioking, if you kiiow?
A.The special information as to the quality required, in regard to ally
article, usually came froiii the commissiolier of Ijidian affairs, wlio was
more familiar in regard to all those details than anybody else. In respect
to the tobac~~o, one quality was selecte~l for northern agencies and aiiothei for soutlierii ageilcies, for the reason, as 1 remember, that tlte ~lifference of cliin;ite required different preparition.
Q.In making the purchases for the Indians, while you advertise for
XX is it not a custom of the purchasing.coiumittee to purchase the
cheapest flour offered, without regard to whether it be XX or
A.~o, I think iiot.
Q.Does your committee annually accept the bid for that class of flour
that con~st}onds with the l}roposals for flour, as the same grade as that
contaiiied in the proposal?
A.That is the custom. Last year samples of flour were required, and
proliosals were accepted for the lowest price for the best flour. This
year, on consultation, I believe, with a good many experts, no samples
were required. Tlie statenieiit was that the standard of XX flour was
one so well established in the western markets, at any rate, that any iiispector who understood his business could determine whether an article supplied was equal to the standard of XX flour or not.
By Mr. MARsll:
Q.Did Agent Savi lle last year report to your board that lie had purchased certain oxen, wagons, cows, &c., for the use of the Indiaiis at
his agenQv?
A.No; Agent Saville would not, ill the ordinary course of business,
make any report of that fact to our board. Any knowledge we might
have of it would come through the Department.
Q.Did he make any reply to the circular sent from  your board
touchiiig such matters?
A.I don't think any such circular has been seiit since my connection
with the board; at least with the secretary's office.
Q.Did lie make ai~y communication at all to your board in regard to
the purchase of oxen, cows, and wagons for his Indians last year?
A.I cannot answer absolutely in the negative without consulting the
records; I don't think he did. I understand now that your question
refers to the reply of Agent Saville to the circular sent by the board of
commissioners calling for information relative to progress in industry,
which reply is published with that aiid all the other agents', in whole
or in part, in the annual report of the Board of Indian Commissioners
for 1874.  My attention had not been specially drawn to that particular
item in Saville's report, and that is the answer I have to make.
Q.Do you remember what he stated in reply to your circular ~
A.I don't remember at all, but I can give you the entire document.
It is published there, in whole I think, in the printed report of the
board. 
753
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. Will you furnish us also a copy of that circular ~
A. That is also ill the printed report.
By Mr. MARSH:
Q. Were the cattle mentioned in this letter to your board, as parcbased for this agency, ever actually received at the agency ~
A. I have no information on that subject.  My official relation to the
transaction would not ordinarily lead me to receive such information.
TESTIMONY OF llON. COLUMBUS DELANO.
By the CHAIRMAN:
Question. ~1r. Secretary, I will ask you to state if Messrs. Felix R.
Bi~unot, Robert Cami~bell, Nathan Bishop, William E. Dodge, John V.
Farwell, and George ~. Stuart, or either of them, at any time, coiiferred
with you on the subject of securing legislation by Congress which would
make the Indian Bureau independent of the Interior Department;
and. if so, whether you encouraged or discouraged their effbrt in that
direction ~
Answer. I have no recollection of a conference with either of these
gentlemen 011 that subject.  Mr. Brunot expressed to me an opinion in
favor of such a separation.  Subsequently the President of the United
States informed me that Mr. Brunot had expressed such an opinioli to
him, and asked my opinion in reference to the propriety of requesting
legislation to that end.  This, I think, was during the session of Con.
gress embracing the winter of 1873-'74, and late in the session. I said to
the President, decidedly, that I should be glad to have the Interior Department relieved of the Indian Bureau, and interchanged opinions with
the President in reference to the probability of procuring legislation at
that late hour of the session.  When this conversation took place we
both concurred rn opinion that it was too late to make a successful effbrt
in that direction.  Immediately after the resignation of Mr. Brunot the
President informed me that Mr. Brunot was mistaken in what he said
about me in reference to this proposed change in his letter of resigna.
tioii, and referred to our conversation on the subject.
Q. In your conversation with Mr. Brunot and either or any of the
other gentlemen whose names I have given, before or after their resig.
nation, did they express any other reason for resigning than those
which are given in their letter ~
A. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. The inquiries which I proposed to make of you at
the time the commission first came to Washington have, with this exception, I believe, so far as my recollecfiou goes, been covered by tIle
ofhcial documents, copies of which have been furnished the commision by the Interior Department, and I know of nothing else that I have
occasion to inquire about.  While you are here, however, I will call
yonr attention to the pamphlet of Professor Marsh, which was referred
to this commission for its investigation, and will state that an opportanit~ is affbrded you, if you desire to do so, to make any statement which
you may think proper in reference to any of the matters contained in
Professor Marsh's pamphlet.
Mr.DELANo. I have no desire to make any.  It has been my purpose
48 1 F 
754
to leave tbis investigation, so far as I am concerned, to official docuinents and such evidence as Professor Marsh might furnish to the coinmission, and as the coin mission itself might seek and obtain, and my
desire is unchanged oji this subject.
By Mr. FAit~KNER:
Q. ~Vhat is the precise relation of the Indian Bureau to your Department, and to what extent does it devolve upon you to supervise aiid
control its transactions ~
A. The Interior Department en~braces within its scope the charge of
the Land-Office~ the Indian Oflice, the Pei~sioii-Office, the Patent-Office,
the Bureau of Education, the Census Bureau, A;~~lurn for the Insaiie,
Asyluii~ for Deaf Mutes, Columbia Hospital, coijstruction of jails and
peniteutiafles for the Territories ~nd Di~trict of Columbia, the hospital
of tbe Freedinen~s Bureau, the exi)en(litures for the Providejice Hospital,
the Capitol Extension, and a large amount of miscellaneous bu~i~ess
which from time to time Congress devolves upon it, it being the rule when
anythilig needs to be doiie that is not hoii~ogeneous to a~~y of the other
Departuients to charge it to the Interior Department. The n'agnitnde
and ext~nt of the business under the ch~'~rg0 of the Interior Dej~artment is scarcely known to or appreciated by members of Congress, wiio
bave more familianty with its duties than almost any other class of citizens.  It is impossible for the Secretary of the Interior to be familiar
with or to coiitrol5and regulate the details of the Offices and Bureaux
under his charge. The extent, therefore, of the Secretary's knowledge
and duty in regard to these various and extensive branches of business
is liniited to a general control ai~d supervision of the same, and the coiisideration of such questions as are brought from the Bureaus to the Secretary for decision aiid advice.  1To illustrate: the Land-Office lias
charge of the public domain, which involves the setflement of questions
growing out of our pre-emption and homestead laws; questioi~s an sing
betweeu homestead and pre-eniption settlers themselves, or between
homestead and pre-e~nptiou settlers and railroads growing out of large
railroad grants, or betwe'en conflicting daimants under railroad-graiits,
&c.,&c.
Q. I did not design, Mr. Secretary, to ask you to give so extended a
view of the relations of your Department to its different branches, but
merely to ask the relations existing between your Office and the India ii
Bureau; to what exteut it was aii independent Bureau, independent of
yuur immediate supervision; and to what extent you were to be held
immediately and directly responsible for its transactions.
A. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, like the heads of the other
Bureaux and Offices, manages entirely the detailsof his Office, withou~ my
personal knowledge or supervision, except where questions are brought
before me in the way that I have indicated.
By Mr. HQWE:
Q. Can you state in that connection the two ways in which questions
are brought before you ~
A. One is by application of the Commissioner for advice, and the other
is by the application of some person or party who feels aggrieved by the
action of the Commissioner.
Q. By reference of a question from the head of the Bureau and by
an appeal, or something in the nature of an appeal ~
A. Yes, sir. 
755
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q.  Are you coiisnlted in the preparation and award of contracts for
Indiai supplies in that Bureau ~
A.  No, sir; the (~omiiiissioner makes out his advertisement for supplies accordiiig to what he sui~poses to be the wants of the sevcral ag~iicies, and iii r~gar~l to these wants I am not well iliforuied, and c~niiot
in most cases intelligently advise or direct.  The advertisement is made
by him.  1t is submitted to me ~ro forma very often for my approval.
Q.  While you are not generally consulted in the ordinary rontii~e of
duty in regard to these contracts for Indian supplies, have you at aiiy
time in the last few years beeii consulted in regard to tlie colitracts!or
supplies at R~ed Cloud agency ~
A.  Never, to iiiy recollection, sir. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs
may have asked me about it, but I don't recollect of ever having be~n
consulted.  I assume that he kiiows what is reqnired of hi!)).
Q.  You have no recollection that he has brought any of these matters
connected with the Indian supplies to your attention?  I mcan in the
award of contracts or the preparation of contracts.
A.  I do not remember any ii~stance, but he may have done so.  If he
has ever done 50 ii) a formal way, my action will be found iii the recoi~ds
of the Office. All contracts are awarded by the Commis~ioner, under the
ad vice of the Boar~l of Indiaii Commissioi~ers, or a committee of th;~t
Board, and I have never, to my recollection, overruled an award thus
niade  When contracts are made under an emergency, and without
advertisement, the Secretary is consulted.
Q.  It appears from a document that some one placed before us that,
as Secretary of the Interior, you have passed nearly half a million dollars of accounts that have been rejected by the Board of Indian Co iiimissioners.  Can you state in reference to any of these accounts`that
have been so rejected by them and paid by you, whether any of them
were rejected by the Board on the ground or charge of fraud in the
accounts?
A.  I cannot state from recollection the particular grounds of rejection in any particular case.  I d() not remember having overruled the
Board in any instance where the Board refused to approve on the ground
of fraud.  I can give you a history of the whole matter, if you desire it.
Q.  We would be pleased to have you state it briefly.
A.  The law creating the Board of Indian Commissioners and empower.
lug them to examine accounts, vouchers, &c., which was passed before
my acceptance of the office of Secretary of the Interior, provided
that tlie accounts, before being paid, should be presented to the Board for
its action and authorized and required the Secretary of the Interior to
revise their action, and approve or overrule it.  The law remained in
that condition until after Mr. Parker retired, and until ~eneral Walker
had beeii one year in the office of Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and
at his instance the law was modified so as not to make the action of the
Board a prerequisite to the payment of the accounts.  After the passage
of the law I considered the subject, and determined, for prudential
and precautionary reasons, that I would contiune the practice that
had prevailed under the law, which required the action of the Board before the decision of the' Secretary, and this practice continued without
difficulty or any serious rejection of acconuts by the Board until the fail
~f 1873.  During this time it was the practice to send all accouiits to the
~xecufive committee of the Board before the Secretary considered them.
This committee established its headquarters or office in New York City,
which caused a good deal of inconvenience and delay.  In the fall of 
756
1873 this committee rejected the large number of accounts to which you
have adverted; the details of any particular acconut it is impossible for
me to remember.
Q.My question was somewhat specific.  I knew a great niany of the
accoutits were rejected by the Board 01) account of some irregularitysome technical want of compliance with the law. The point to which I
wish to direct your attention is, have you any recollection of having
paid any of these accounts which had been rejected by the Board of
Indiaii Commissioners oii the ground of fraud ~
A.No sir.  I remember no such instance. The rejections were for
irregularities, and, as you have said, for technical reasons so far as I
remember.  I will complete my general statement.  These accoui~ts
were rejected and brought before me during the fiuan~ial panic of the
year 1873. A large amoulit of them had accumulated.  i~ealizing the
importai~ce of the occasioii ~i)d tlie necessity of doing what was just to
the creditors of the Government during this exigency, I adopted this
rule: ~7hen an accoui~t was rejected by the Board I returned it to the
Indian Office for the Commissioner's informaflon, for observations and
explanation. ~7ben returned by the Indian Office to me, if I thought
tlie explanation would remove the objection in ti~e mii~ds of the Board,
I setit it back to the Board.  In maily instances they acted upon the
explanation of flie Indian Office and withdrew their disapproval. If
that was not done, I referred the account, with the report from the Indian Office and the disapproval of the Board, to the Assistant Attorney.
General assigned to duty in my Del)artinei)t for legal advice, and asked
of hini a written opinion as to whether the accounts should be approved
by me and the action of the Board overruled, or whether I should sustain
the action of the Board; and in every instance, so far as my recollection
serves me, I fbllowed his advice, requiring that opinion to be tiled with
the I)apers in the particular case, and tiiei~ sent forward with the papers
to the accounflug-officers of the Treasury Department if I overruled the
Board.  I now repeat, that I have no recollection that any of these cases
where I overruled the Board had been disapproved by the Board 01) accouiit of fraud. I will add that, after these overrulings of the action ot
tlie Board bad been made, I reported to Congress, by submitting t() the
Piesideiit, under a resolutioii of the llonse of i~epresentatives, I think,
all the facts and circumstances of each particular case, and with thc
report there was a schedule of accounts that had been acted upon, em
braciiig each account acted upon; and that report is published, aiid i
tiie o~ic that has been adverted to by the chairu~au.  I bave given thc
chairman of this commission a copy of it.  This report was IlOt only be
fore Congre~s, but was before the Committee on Indian Affairs durin~
the session of 1873'74, of which one of your commission was a member
Q.Has your attention as Secretary of the Interior been directed tc
any distinct charges of fraud in any of the Indian agencies in thf~
~Vest?
A.It has been directed to cases of alleged fraud frequently. I recollect that my atteiition was called to alleged cases of fraud at the Chey
ei~ne i~iver agency, and I immediately appointed a gentleman to in
vestigate them.  I recollect another case, which occurred in the fal
of 1873. It appertained to the Red (?loud agency. I learned from Rev
Dr. J)yer, who is the representative of the Protestaiit Episcopa
Church, and who nominate~ certain Indiau agents, that some charg;
liad been made against Agent Saville, or, rather, Dr. Dyer inquired of mif any had been made.  I replied that I had heard of noI)e. I subs
quently ascertained that the Board of udian Commissioners had ap 
757
pointed a person, without consulting me, by the name of S~mud N\~alker
to ii)vestigate the conditioii of affi~rs at Red Cloud agency in October
or November, 1873; that he had made a report damaging to the agelit;
that the report had been kept from my knowledge until February, 1874,
and h~d been fi~rnished to outside parties by Walker. One of these parties
was William Welsh. I immediately appointed a commission to examine
into the condition of affairs at Red Cloud, consisting of Bishop llare, missionary bishop of Niobrara, Rev. Dr. flinman, and one of the inspectorsI think Dr. Bevier. I also corresponded with Mr. Brunot, the chairman
of the Board, upon the impropriety of causing a secret investigation of
the sort, and withholdiiig the inrormation from me. All that correspondence is in the pamphlet published and before you, containing the official
documents an~l the report of Bishop llare, Mr. llinman, and Iii spector
Bevier, appointed as aforesaid.  That report was an exoneration of the
agent and a contradichon bf the report of Walker, which had been
secretly made, and kept from my knowledge under the cirenuistances I
bave stated.  My attention has been called to many other instances of
frtud which I cannot specify, and I have never failed, aiid never shall
fail, I trust, while I ain Secretary of tlie Iiiterior, to take the proper
steps to investigate all snch complaints.  Your appointli)ent is due to
such complaints.  The investiga~fion of charges against Comriiissioner
Smith, made by William Welsh, is anotlierinstance occurring to iny iiiind,
and there is now in progress a commission to examine the condition of
affairs at the Osage agency.
By the CllAIRMAN:
Q. Now, referring to the Treaty of 1868 with the Sioux Indians, I wish
to inquire if your attention has been called to the provision in the tenth
article of that Treaty, which requires that "the Presideiit shall annually
detail un officer of the Army to be present and attest the delivery of all
the goods herein named to the Indians, and he shall iiisl)ect aiid report
on the quantity and quality of the goods and~ the manner of their delivery;" annuity-goods?
A. I confess it never has been.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Q. I would like to know whether at any time any member of either
of the Boards of Indian Commissioners expressed a wish or desire to
you for the removal of Mr. Smith as Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
and the appointment of any other person, or claimed that he was not a
proper person for that place?
A. A member of the Board Of Indian Commissioners?
Q. Yes.
A. Never, to my recollection.
Q. I do not speak of the present board, but either the new or the old
Board.
A. Yes, sir; a member of the former Board of Indian Commissioners
expressed such a desire to me.
Q. Have you any objection to stating who that member was and what
suggestion he made?
A. No, sir.
Q. Please state' it.
A. It was William Welsh, of Philadelphia.
Q. At what period; when was it?
A. It was in the fall of 1873, immediately preceding the assembling
of Coligress.
Q. Upon what gr9unds did he make the request, if you remember? 
758
A. Mr. William N\~]sh desired a private iiiterview with me, which I
graiited.  This interview took i)lace at iny house oiie morning, imn~edia~ely after breakfast, in accordaiice with all appoiiitineiit. After some
prelimina~y reniarks, he asked me to remove Mr. Commissioiier Smith
aiid Assistant Secretary Cowen from office, aiid stated that if I did, I
would escape a great deal of trouble and avoi~l a congressiotial investigation.  I replied to hiin that I (~onld not afford to r~niove officers in
whoni I had coiifidence fi om such a motive, but if be had any charges
against either of these office~, I would appoint a committee to be nanied
by hi in, or appoi~it him as a committee to investigate them, and if the
report showed reasons for removiiig these officers, I would ask the President to remove fhein.  lle declined to do so; aiid subsequently, duriiig
the same tl~v, visited the Interior Departii~eiit, (`Llld had iiiterviews
with both these geiitleiiien, as lie told n~e on tlie afternoon of the same
day, saying, when he t()l(l ine so, that the things which were i1t)Ofl his
inind had been fully explained, that lie was peiTeetly satisfle~~, aiid that
his old love aiid affection for these officers liad returned. Tli;it is tlie
substance of the reqii~st. There were some incideiits coniiected with
our conversatioii that I have not rcl;ited.
Q. At tlie time of that interview with Mr. Welsh at your house, when
hedemaiided the reinovil of Assistant Secretary Coweii aiid Mr. Commissiouer Siiiitli, did he give aiiy expression as to liis confidence or want of
confideiice in yourself aii~ your adniinistn~tion ~
A. Duiiiig that interview, and alter his demand f~ir the removal of
Assistaiit Secretary Cowen and Comiiii&~ioner Smith, and after I proposed to a~)point liin~ to investigite charges against them, aiid after he
threatened a congre~sional ilivestigitiol) in case I decliiied to remove
them, I stated to him my apprehensions that liis feeliiigs were unkind
and nnfrieii~lly toward nie, aiid that his purpose was to ~~iiibarrass my
adiiiiiiistratioii, and that I had reason for sii~)~)osing that siiice my refusal t() make him Commissioiier of Iiidian Affairs, at tlie suggestion of
Mi. Brunot, lie liad entertaiiie~l uiikiii~l feeliiigs to~~ ard iiie.  He then
assured me iii tlie most earnest aiid s~~Ienin niaiiiier that lie liad entire
confidence in in', integiit~, in m~ ai}ility, aiid iii ni', siiicere i)uri)ose to
c~ri', out, so tar as I W(i5 able, tlie ~ie~ce polic', of tlie Pre~ident, ind
that he iiever, at any time, d~iubted me on aiiy of t liese poiJitS: lIe
also then made euilihati~ demoiistr~tioiis of ~ftection lor me, ~~liich at
this time I deem it uniiecessary to des~'ribe or state.  So flir as I know,
all these matters about which investigation is being made antedated
this coiiversatioii with Mr. Welsh.
Q. After that, while lie was a member of the Board did lie ma
charges against either of these officers'?,         keany
A. lIe was not tlieii a m~mher of tlie Board. lIe had been a member~
ai i d,afterretiring, had beeiiand was an offl~~ons person aliout Iiidi~n at
fairs, but it was asa volunteer and not as a member that he made these
st-i teineiits.
Q. ~Vas there any suggestion b', any other member of the Board as to
tlie displaceme~t of these geiitlemen, aiid the appointment of any particilar person as successor to Mr. Smith'?
A. No, sir.
-Q. Did aiiy member of the old Boar~~ r~ommend ~r suggest at any
time tiie name of Mr. ~V elsh for Coin missioner of Indian Affairs?
A. ~Vheji Mr. Parker retired from 6ffice, and before Mr. Walker was
appointed, one of tlie members of tiie Board suggested to u~e tlie appointiiieiit of Mr. Win. Welsh, as Comiiiissionei- of Indian Affairs. This took
place after a meeting of ttie General Convention of the Protestaiit Epis. 
759
copal Church, in   Baltimore, to which I had been invited by Mr. N\~elsb,
for the purpose of ~naking some observations explanatory of the Indi'jn
policy of the United States.  At thit meeting there were some distin
guislied perso'is trom England, and Mr. Welsh was very urgent that I
should go there and explain to them our system ai~d policy of treating
the Indians.  I went in obedience to l~is request, and was entertained
very handsomely by him while there.  It was very soon after that meeting that Mr. Brunot, a meinber of the Board, suggested to me for consideration Mr. Welsh's name, as Corn missioner of ~ndian Affairs, but I
j)romptly disappioved of it, although I had no objection to Mr. Welsh
at that time, other than what arose from my conviction that he had not
tlie judgment, wisdom, and discretion necessary for the place.
Q. ~7as this matter at any time discussed by you before the Board or
wit ii members of the Board ~
A. No, sir. It was never discussed before tlie Board.
Q. Do you kiiow whether tlie matter was informally or in any way
discussed by other menibers of tite Board?  ~Vhether the Board had
bee ii ii~formed of what had trans~~ired?
A. I ~~annot say, sir.  My opiiiion in reference to the impropriety of
appoiuting Mr. Welsh was distinct aiid nndisgulse~l.
The CHAIRMAN (to Professor Marsh.)  Are there aiiy questions that
you desire to ask the Secretary of the Interi~r?
A. No, sir.
TESTIMONY OF llO~. B. R. COWEN.
Hon. B. R CoWEN, Assistant Secretary of the Interior, was present
in response to a request of the commission.
By Mr. HARRIS:
Question. As iione of the other comi~iiissioners have any questions to
ask, aiid althongh I have no special inquiries to niake myself, yet as
~-oLi are here, Mr. Secretary, I will call your atteiition to the fact of the
iin~iiense list of overruled daims, some of which have been alluded to
iii ~~oi~nection with this iiivestigation.  As an exalnl~le I will take oiie of
tiie lirgest, that of A. H. Wilder, for the suin of $8(),6S5.~6, for beef
furiiished ilt a~lvaiice of the requirements of tlie coiitract.  Here are the
oiigir~al papers, [showing papers;j can you give us aiiy iii formation
ab~~i~t it?
Aii~wer. I cannot tell anything about it fi~rtlier than appears in my
ii)(l0r&~ement and the letter of Mr. W. H. Smith  Assistant AttoriieyGeiieral accompanying.  My indorsement reads as follows:
DFPARTMENT OF THE INTEI~IoR
Octofier ~8, 1873.
Tlie action of the e~~utive committee is hereby set aside; and, in accordance with
the recomniendation contained in a letter of Hon. W. H. Smith, Assistant Attoruey-(~en
eral, (copy herewith,) the ate,ount is approved for $80,685.56.
B.R. COWEN,
Actiag Serr~,ory.
And you will find there among the papers the letter of the Assistant
Attorney-General referred to in that indorsemen t.
Q. Is there any information which you can give us in relation to that
inatrer that is not contained in these papers?
A. No, sir; I have no recollection of any. 
760
Q. That is your indorsement?
A. That is my indorsement.
Q. Do you know whether you overruled the action of the Board of
Indian Commissioners upon consultation with the Secretary of the Interior, or upon your own responsibility ~
A. It was the custom, as appears by the letter of the Assistant Attorney-General, to refer such matters to him for his opinion.
Q. Was there any question of fraud raised in connection with the
payment of that claim ~
A. None at all.
Q. ~Ye have the papers, but if you have any personal knowledg~e
that you could add to them we would like to have it.
A. I will look them over and see whether anything occurs to my
recollection.  [After examining the documents.]  You will see that
the Assistant Attorney-General, in his opinion, says:
It seems to be conceded that all the cattle were in fact delivered as stated in the account.
The only objection urged is, that they were delivered in advance of the times called for by
the contract.
The proposals, which are made part of the contract, called for 5,000,000 pounds for each
of the ageucies at Red Cloud and Whetstone, to be delivered in equal proportions on the 1st
and 5th of each month of the fiscal year. The Commissioner, however, reserved "the right
to increase or diminish the quantity of any of the articles which tlie bidder or bidders pro.
posed to furnish."
The contract stipulated that such increase or decrease should not exceed 25 per cent. The
deliveries that were made exceeded the 25 per cent. somewhat. They were made in accordance
with a custom that has prevailed at Indian agencies, especially in tlie summer months, of delivering and receiving more than the exact quota. This custom is alleged to be beneficial to
the Government, inasmuch as pasture is then generally abundant, and tlte cattle thrive and
increase in weight, at comparatively no expense.
That is about the merits of the case, as appears from the documents.
I have no recollection of the case bQVond the indorsement.
Q. ~Vere you accustomed to pass such claims upon th~ opitiion of the
Attorney-General without yourself investigating the facts ~
A. I presume we would go over the points of tite case together before
final action was aken; and to that extent investigate the case, though
I cannot say tl~a Ithat would be a thorough itivestigation by myself~ but
simply goilig over the points with hi in, he haviitg examined them carefully and fully.
By Mr. FAULKNER:
Q. What is the weight or autho~'ty that you attach to the opinion of
the Assistant Attorney-General in the Department of the Interior; do
you regard it as conclusive in governing your actiot~ ~
A. I regard it as very good advice in all questions of law simply, but
conclusive in nothing else.  The present Assistant Attorney-General is
regarded as a very prominent lawyer in his State, and is cotisi~lered a
sound lawyer, and I think his opinion on a legal question it entitled to
great weight.
Q. Do you submit to him any but legal questions~
A. No, sir.
Q. And you regard his opinions and decisions as binding upon the
Department ~
A. Not binding at all; simply advisory.
Q. You don't shield yourself behind the authority of the Assistant
Attorney-General ~
A. No, sir.
Q. But rest upon the merits of the case independent of his opinion ~
A. Yes, sir. 
761
By Mr. ATHERTON:
Q. One question suggested by the reading of the contract, I would
like to ask: Under the contracts that are awarded by the Interior Depart in en t, are the proposals uniformly considered a part of the contract?
A. I presume by these papers that they are, though I have nothing
to say of my own knowledge on the subject.
Q. ~Vould the Assistant Attorney.~eneral to whom you refer, be able
to aiiswer that definitely?
A. Yes, sir; he would be able to answer; but the Commissioner of
Indian Affairs would be a better authority. for that, because it is one of
the details connected directly with his Office, and with which the Secretary has nothing to do at all. The custom would be sufficient.  I sup.
pose, by the reference he makes in his opinion, the Attorney-General
found it was the custom. I think you wlll find that matter referred to
in his letter.
By the CHAi~MA~:
Q. ~Vill you please explaiu to the commission what you know with
reference to the claim of McCann for demiirrage, which has recently
been paid.
A. Yes, sir.  This was a claim for demurrage, growing out of certaiu
delays in the trains of McCann at i?ort Laramie, in the summer of 1871.
These traiiis were en route to the Whetstone age~icy when the Red
Cloud agent bad reason to believe that the Red Cloud Indians intended
to resist the passage of these goods through their territory, and upon
his own responsibility lie de]ayed the train at Fort Laramie until he
could communicate with the Department.  In August, 1871, he was directed by the Actiiig Commissioner of Indian Afibirs to delay the traiu
at Fort Laramie. This delay was continued until the 14th August, 1871,
wheii the goods which had been intended for the Whetstone agency
were directed to be forwarded to the Red Cloud agency, which was so
doite.  By reason of that delay McCann claimed a certain amount as
his loss, and asked ~)ayuient of that claim. The claim was originally
preseiited to the Indian Office for payment, when it was discovered that
there were no funds on baud to pay it with. Then it was sent to Congress, and by the llouse of ~el)resentatives was referred to the standing
Committee on Indian Afibirs, which committee, on the 15th of April,
1874, rej~orted in favor of the payment, which report (No. 417, Fortythird Congress, first session) will be fonnd among the executive docuineiits of that session. The bill reported by the Committee on Indiaii
Aftbirs failed to pass at that session.  Subsequently it was discovered,
on the adjustment of balances of appropriations between the Indian
Office and the Treasury Department,that there was a balance on hand
applicable to the ~)ayii0ent of a portion of this claim, and the account
was referred to the Board of Indian Commissioners for examination.
The ret~ort of the executive committee of that Board, dated Angtist 5,
1875, is as follows:
BoARD OP 1NDIAN COMMISSIONERS,
Washington, D. C., August 5, 1875.
SIR:I have the honor to return herewith, without the approval of the executive cornmitten of thts Board, the account of D. J. McCann for $11,368, for detention of trains while
transporting Indian goods and supplies during August, 1871.
The account seeming to involve a question of law as to payment for detention of trains,
with which the committee were not familiar, and tlie matter having once heen hefore Congress without final adjudication, it was deemed proper to refer it to the full Board at its recent
meeting at Long Brauch. 
762
The Board, acting from the same considerations, directed the return of the papers withon
the approval of the committee.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
F. H. SMITH,
Hon. SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR.                               Secretary.
The Board withheld their approval, because the account i~ivolved a
qtiestio[1 of law, as to payment for detention of traiiis, with which the
colnmittee were not familiar.  This report of the executive committee
was referred by me to the Second Comptroller for his opinion, as you
will see by the iiidorsement:
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,
August 5, 1S75
Respectfiilly referred for the opinion of the Second Comptroller as to the propriety of
allowing the within account, having reference to his recent decision in the case of the
claiui of Neal and Murphy.
B. R. COWEN,
Acting Secretary.
In reply, the Comptroller, under date of August 6, 1875, gave as bis
opinion that ti~e contractor was clearly e~~titled to compensation, and
that the claim could be allowed.  His letter is as follows:
TREASUkY DEPARTMENT,
SECOND CoMPTRoLLER'S OFFICE.
August 6, 1S75.
SIR: I am in the receipt, by your reference, of the account of D. J. McCann for trans.
portation and delays of Indian goods and supplies in the year 1S71.  In reply to your ques.
tion as to tha propriety of allowing the claim I have to say that it appears from the papers
submitted that the contractor entered upon the duty and carried the goods according to tlie
direction of the Ii~dian Department, and is clearly entitled to compensation therefor, and I am
of opinion that the claim can be allowed.
Very respectfully,
J. M. BRODHEAD,
Cornptrol~er.
Hon. B. R. Cow EN,
Actin~ Secretary of the Interior.
After the receipt of that letter froin tl'e Second Comptroller a copy of
it was forwarded, with the dain~, to the proper accounttng.officers of the
Treasury, with the following indorsement:
DEPARTMENT OF TilE INTERIoR,
flashinglon, August 6, iS75.
In view of the opinion of the Second Comptroller of the Treasury, dated August 6, l~75
copy herewith, the within account is hereby allowed in the sum of $ ii,36S.
B. I?. COWEN,
Acting Seeretary.
I desire also in this connection to presel)t the decision of the Secoitd
Comptroller, dated December 28, 1874, in the matter of the daim of
Neal attd Murphy, which is a similar case to the one nnder considera
tion. The Comptroller cites tlie custom of the Treasury Depar~inent ill
regard to claims for demurrers, a~~d also the decision of the Supreme
Court of the United States, by which it will be seen the validity of such
claims has been and still is recognized by the prop~r accounting.
officers of the Treasury. The decision is as follows:
TREASURY DEPARTMENT,
SECOND CoMPTR()LLER'S OFFJCE,
December 2S, 1874.
Inthe matter of the claim of Neal and Murphy for expenditures i~~cnrred by them in carry.
ing out a contract with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, but which was subsequently
abrogated by the Government. 
763
SIR: Claimants allege, and file the affidavits of their wagon-master and others as well as
their own in support of their allegation, that in consequence of the failure of the Government to fitruish them with the public stores for transportation which their contract required
tl~ent to transport, they were obliged to sell their teams and outfits at a reduced rate.  The
los titus resulting they ask the Government to re-imburse to them
And they also ask for demurrage while their teams were proceeding from Atchison, Kansas, to Wichita, in that State, atid returtling thence to the place of departure, and this on
the ground that il~eir said contract required them to receive the said public stores at Wichita
and thence to tratisport them to the several indian agencies mentioned in the contract.
Whether the facts justify an allowance in the nature of denturrage or for re-imbur-ement
of acrital and necessary expenses, or for each, 1 am tot prepared to decide.
it itas beet tite long-settled practice of tlte accounting-officers to adjust claims of either
descrtptiott arising in the transportation service of the Army, but in such cases it i also the
rule`u rt~quire, as a condition precedent, the administrative action of the Quartermaster's
Dope totent.
1 tittd Ott examination of the papers of tit is claim no report of the facts with recommendati~n l)y the Comotissioner of itidian Affairs, and with tite view that yoti will cattse at investigetitin to be made 6f the facts, as alleged by the daim~tnts, 1 now transmit all the papers.
TIte case of Bulkley, a cotitractor, illustrates tite practice of tite accounting-officers.
Havit~g been notified by the Quartermaster's Departtttettt that tratisportation fi~r a large
atttoutit of sttpplies would be required, lie got ready. A small part of the stores was fitruislied
the cintracti~r, but the Goveruntent, not needing transportation for tite greater portion, did
nttt furnish it.
Tiie contractor presented his claim for re-imbursement of actual expenses incurred in order
to fulfill his contract. This consisted of two items
I. Tite difference betw~en the cost of purchase of teams and outfit and the amount realized
fruit tite sale of the same; and
`2. Tite expense of wintering his st(ick.
TIte facts alleged by the cotitractor were verified on investigation by the QuartermasterGeiteral, and the claint was approved by this Office.
On review by the accitutitiitg~offlcers. it was held to come witiiin the nile of this Office, as
f utid in paragraph 5)3 Digest of Comptroller, and payment of the claim was accordingly
made. Profits, it will be observed, were disallowed.
Tite claimant thereupoti brought suit against the Ilnited States in the Court of Claims to
r~cover pt'ofits under his contract.
Tite court decided:
Tite defendants not havitig violated their cotitract through its entire scope, the claimant
shott!d iiot recover as damages the profits he would have utade had the freight specified been
Juinished him.
But the defendants having thrown upon the claimant needless expense, by requiring him
to mike ready for the transportation of freight ttnder the contract which they did not in fact
requtte to be transported, tlte claimant should recover the amount of such expense.-( Vide
Bittkley v. Uaited States, 9 C. Cl. I?., ~`2.)
On appeal, the Supreme Court sustained the ruling of the Court of Claims.
`flie court, speaking of the claim, said:
"This claim is confined to.tlte stores not tratisported."
And, speaking of the contract. it held that it commits tlte Government to nothing but to
pay for service rendered.  *  *    In making rea~y to meet the requirements of the notices,
Builley "`as subject to the loss of time, to trouble and expense. He is entitled to be paid
aec' rdiitgly.
Sticit is the impiication of t~ e contract, and what is implied in a contract, deed, will, or
statute is as effectual as what is expressed.-( 1l'id, 19 ~Vallace, 37.)
it will thus be seen that tlte rule observed iii Bulkisy's case by this Office, in accordance
with foriiter practice, is supported and confirmed by tite decisions of tlie Court of Clainis and,
of tlte Supreme Court.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J.M. BRODHEAD.
Comptroller.
Hon. E. P. SMtTH,
Coin missioner of Indiast Affairs.
The claim of McCann was returned by the executive committee of
the Bo;trd of Iitdiau Commissioners, as they s~y, situ ply because it
seemed to iuvolve a ~iiestioti of law with which they were not familiar,
and relative to which they express no opinion. 
7~4
STATEMENT OF llENRY E. ALYORD.
Mr. rIENRY E. ALYoRD, being unable to visit Washington to testify
in person, had forwarded the following sworn statement of matters Under investigation:
EAST llAMPToN, MASS., September 11, 1875.
SIR: Your letter dated Saint Lonis, September 6, 1875, has been received.  tt requests me to appear as a witness before the conimission
appointed to investigate alleged frauds and mismanagement of Indian
aflairs, of which you are chairman, at Washington, D. C., between the
9th and 15th of the present month, and in case I ca'inot meet you, to
"write out and transmit a full statement of all matters within your
knowledge, touching the alleged frauds and misrnt n agemen t."
My duties here in charge of the business department of Williston
Semii~ary, its academic year having just comnienced, prevent me froin
going to Washington at present.  Aiid without questions or other gui~le
from yotir commission, it seems impracticable for me to undertake a detailed statement for your use or iuformation.  I can, however, give you
a general account of my connection with Indian affairs, and my knowledge of frauds and mismanagement at the Red Cloud and Whetstone
(or Spotted Tail) agendes for the Sioux of Dakota, and, for convenience,
I do so in this letter-form.
For about five years from and after the re-organization of 1866 I was
an officer of the United States Army, and served the greater part of
the time in the Indian country, having considerable "special Indian
duty," and thus becoming well acquainted with tlie Indian service of
the Southwest.  In December, 1871, family matters caused the resignation of my commission as a captain of cavalry in the Army, aiid I
located in Fairfax County, Virginia.
In July, 1872, Prof. Edward Parrish, of Philadelphia, and myself
were appointed special commissioners to the Coinanches, Kiowas, and
neighboring tribes.  My associate died at the Kiowa agency, Septeniber
9.  The remaining work of the commission devolved upon me, aiid was
completed in October.  The report dated at Washington, October 10,
1872, will be found, marked "E," among the papers accompanying the
annual report of the Commissioner of Indiau Affairs for the ye~r 1872,
at page 128 of the bound volume. By that report the attenfion of the Department was called to certain "fraud aiid mismanagement~~ under tl~e
several heads of the "Wichita agency," p. 134; "Rations and annuity
goods," p. ~4O; "The liquor-trade," p. 144; "Transportation," p. 146,
and especially "Inspection," p. 147.  Aside from the general statemeiits
of the report, I gave specific information as to these matters, iii person,
to the then Commissioner of Indian Affairs.  I know that steps were
promptly taken to correct some of the evils thus reported and accouiit
for the failure to attend to the others, by the fact that the official to
whom the verbal information was given resigned soon after and for two
or three months the Indian Office was without a Commissioner.
In May, 1873, I was appointed the junior member of a special commission to the Sioux Indians, the objects of which were about the same
as those of what is now known as the Black Hills commission.  Hon.
Felix R. Brunot, then chairn~un of the Board of Iiidian Commissioners,
and Col. E. C. Kemble, now United States Indian inspector, were the
other members.
Under written instructions from the Department of the Interior, dated 
765
May 17, 1873, Colonel Kemble and myself were directed to proceed at
once to Omaha, Cheyenne, Fort Lara'nie, and the agencies, both to arrai'ge for the general council with the Sioux Iiidians and to specially
illvestigate and report upon certain complai'~ts of mismanagement at
the Sioux agencies.  This was accordingly done.
Colonel Keinbie and I visited together, during the first half of June,
tlie Red Cloud and Whetstone agencies, gave as close attention to the
affairs of both, especially at Whetstone, (Spotted Tail's,) as circumstances permitted, and rendered a report, signed by us, and dated Red
Cloud agency, ~7yoming Territory, June 16, 1873. That paper did not
ai)pear as part of the animal report of the Indian Office for 1873, and
bas never been published, I believe, but I know it reached the Department and it is undoubtedly on file there.  From the original draught, in
n~y handwnting and ~iow before me, I quote the passages which bear
most directly upon tlie subject of this letter:
Messrs. Kemble and Alvord together visited the Whetstone agency at its new location
du~ing the week ei~ding June 14 1873. * * The quantity of beef actually
received by tho Whetstone agent during the past year was unquestionably greatly less than
that receipted for to the contractor; the amount really delivered to the Indians far less than
appears upon the provision returns, and the Indians reported thereon as receiving subsistence much in excess of the true number.  In brief, while unable for want of specific data
t() make a detailed report on the points specially referred to them, your commissioners
f\)niid such a state of irregularity, conflision, arid corrnption at this agency, the result of the
maiiegenient of the late age ii t, that they recommend a special investigation of its affairs
coveritig his whole term, and the ~uspension of a settlement of hiS accounts and outstanding vouchers and indebtedness certified by him unill such investigation can be had.  Durin the brief visit of your commissioners at this place, they searched diligently for informatj()li on the late operations there, and have in possession many facts not called for by their
instiucti~~ns, but which are at tlie disposal of your Office, either in the form of notes or as a
sp~cial report.  They are also prepared to offer suggestions on various points relating to the
ilianagem eat of both these agencies visited by them, as the result of their observations
litre.
As Colonel Kemble and myself were about to separate, he continuing
iii the Indian service while I returned home, we put the facts we had
g'tthered, with the sources of our information, names of witnesses, &c.,
itt to the form of miscellaneous notes.  I thiiik Colonel Kemble prepared
the paper.  We both sigiied it, and it remained iii his charge.
The authorities of the Indian Office atid Interior Department never
called on us for a supplemental report, and, so far as I know, our
"itotes" were not asked for. Inspector Kemble probably knows where
tltat paper is. I have the note-book frorn which ~t was largely cornpilt~d, but not iii a form to enable me to make a duplicate.
Subsequently, at the request of the Board ef Indian Commissioners,
ft~r their use while considering sonte large accounts for beef claimed as
delivered at Spotted Tail's camp, I prepared and forwarded to Washingtoll "Additional Xotes of Whetstone Agency." This document must
also be amoitg the official records.
i~Iessrs Kemble and Alvord, because of their instructions, and for
other good reasons, (which could be easily explained, but need not be
here given,) contined their official report to the affairs at Whetstone
agency; also mOst of the "notes~' above mentioned; but as indicated
iit ~he last paragraph quoted above, they obtained considerable itifornialion also, during their service together, as to the Red Cloud agency
affairs. Tlie original memoranda as to both agencies I still have.
I rtturned to Washington June 30, 1873, presented in person the report of our full commission, and spent the greater part of that day and
ihe next (July 1) at the Interior Department, where I met the CommissI() er of Indian Affairs and Acting Secretary of the Interior, and gave
tbem verbal explanations and additional information. I was then at 
766
the Dep~rtment more or less every week in J1iIy, and I repeatedly urged
upon the Comrnissioi~er of Indian Affairs nii~l tl)C Secretary and Assi~ta~it Secretary of the Interior aclion upon the report of ColoneL Keinbie
and ~nyself.
As tl~e special investigation of Whetstone aff~~irs which we recommended was iiominally made, aiid resulted iii a report denying the
"irregula~ty, confusion, aiid corruption~~ which we had declared existing there, I ll)U5t here re-affirm the statemeiits, over the signatures of
B. C. Kemble and niyself, above quoted, aii~l add that there was no possibility of our being mistaken or deceived; th('tt tlie fact that tl~e former
agent absconded with l)i5 coufidei~tial clerk and all the records of his
agency, just prior to our arnval, continued our st;ttemetit; that tl~e ficts
~ve reported were never questioi~ed, but geiierally admitted iii my personal interviews with the chief officials of the Interior Department; aiid
that Colonel Kejuble and myself 1)1 aced at the disposal of tiie Departnient such evidence and data as would have led inevitably, it) tlie hands
of any competent and honest investigator or prosecutor, to tlie full confirmation of oiir charge of corruption, and to the conviction of the absconding aiid defraudii~g official.
But as our report was so officially denied and disregarded, it seems
necessary to seek all explanation.  This is easily fonud in tlie fact that
the person to whom was assigned this special investigation of ~~[ietstoiie
agency aflairs was the Red Cloud agent, who could not have exposed in detail the ir~-eguiarities and corruption of his neighbor without implicating
hThtself  I dislike to make this assertion, but it is my~flrm belief, based
upon my own observation there and subsequent examination of official
records.
The Secretary of the Interior, the Assistant Secretary, and the Comrnissioi~er of Ii~diau Affairs were made personally acquainted with the
condition of affairs at the Red Cloud and Whetstone agencie~, as known
to Colonel Kemble and myself, in July, 1S73, and were verbally given so
many details of the facts constituting the irregularities, confusiot~, and
corruption which we reported, that when I ci me North in August, I
felt certaiti they were convinced of the necessity of special watchfulness
and thorough reformation in the Indian affairs of that region.  I catinot
understand how they could be satisfied with the brief and general denial
of the inspector, especially when official documents on file within their
reach, and to which I had called attention, utterly refuted his report
I have had no official connection with Indian affairs since July, 1873,
save a brief correspondence about two years ago when requested to
serve on a special commission to the Southwest with Commissioiier
Smith and the governor of Texas, and unable to do so.
The "alleged frauds and              mismanagement~~ spoken of in your ~etter
refers, I presume, to the charges preferred by Prof. 0. C. Marsh in a letter addressed to the President of the United States, ill relation to the
Red Cloud agency.
You will see from what I have already written that I have no personal
knowledge of those matters.
But in reading Professor Marsh's charges and specifications, I at oiice
noticed the resemblance between his statemeiits and the facts which I
had in part discovered and reported to the Department from the same
ground two years before.  llis representation of the inefficiency and
guilt of the Red Cloud agent in 1874 and 1875 was almost a duplicate
of our report on the Spotted Tail agent in 1872 and 1873.
Professor Marsh believed the number of Indians at the Red Cloud
agency largely overestimated in the last quarter of 1874.  Messrs. Kern 
767
ble and Alvord presented to the Department, in July, 1873, condusive
evidence that tile uumb~~r of Indians borne on the provisior'.returi~s of
the ~Vhetstone ageiicy for the same period in 1872 wa~ at least 5L~ pt~r
cent. above the actual number fed, and that there was then also a Si mi
lar overestimate at the Red Cloud agency.
The frands in beef c~ttle, both as to number and weight, as stated to
have occurred in 1S74-'75 at the Red Cloud and ~Vhetstone agendes, were,
if true, b tit repetitions of like transactions on the same grouiid in 1 872-'73,
which were by inc reported to the Department.  I witnessed an issue
at the Red Cloud agency, June 17,1873, of poor animals, and m~'tny of
tlieiii but one or two years old, which weighed oiily from 300 (or less) to
650 pounds each, but were receipted for as averaging 875 pouiids.  I
followed several thousand hides from the hands of tile Iiidians who took
them from the aninials issued, through the traditg-houses at Spotted
Tail's and Red Cloud's, to Omaha, where they were fully identified.
They were there averaged by actual weighing. They were compared with
large quantities of hides coining from different places, aiid the opinion of
exlierts was obtaiiied as to the weight of the animals from which ~hey
were taken, considering all the circumstances of season, cotidifion, butcheriiig, and transportation.  For a lot of about 7,000 hides from animals
killed at the two agencies nanied between July, 1872, and May, 1873,
the nearly uniforni opinion was that the cattle, when butchered, averaged
less than 800 pounds; but during this penod the receipts of the agents
were for cattle averiging from 900 to 1,025 pounds.  This agreed with
my own experience. I have handled a good many beef. cattle from Texas,
and often seen large herds weighed or averaged for sale, but I iiever
saw a herd of any size averaged at as high a weight as a thousand
pounds each.  As a chance example of the weight of Texas beef-cattle,
I mention a memorandum now before me, of 286 head of fully matured
unusually choice animals, in fine order, which I procured in the fall of
1872, within a hundred miles of their native pasture.  These were averaged after the manner of the country, and the owner was fully satisfied
with tiie weight, which was fixed at 900 pounds each.
Iiiferior flour was seen at Red Cloud's in 1874.  In 1873 I reported to
the Department a lot of over 400,000 pounds of worthless stuff called
flour, seen by me lying out of doors at Spotted Tail's, fast going to decay. And of this 1,200 sacks had then been, under a Government contract, recently moved with the agency, at a cost of $1.50 per sack, after
its condition was such that the Itidians would not touch it, and thei?
ponies even refused to eat it in midwinter.
A fraud in transportation is stated by Professor Marsh.  A parallel
case ~~S reported by me to the Department, where, early in 1873, the
Whetstone agent attached his official certificate, vouching in the strongest terms to the accuracy of an account for transportation amounting
to $33,5~t1.89, when he knew that, instead of over two millions of pounds
of freight charged for, less than one million was actually carried, and
that the distance of seventy-five miles allowed was in reality not over
thirty-five miles. This voucher, covering what is known as "the Graves
transportation contract," is referred to in the official files in "Whetstone
R., 139, of 1873." It was received at the Indian Office June 24, 1873;
and on my representation of its nature, a few days later, to the Acting
Secretary of the Interior, its payment was suspended.  I trust that that
is still its status, and that it can be found on file.  But, so far as I know,
nothing has been done to bring to justice the guilty official who, by his
signature, became a party to this single fraud of $25,000.  And now it
seems probable that the same imposition was successfully carried out in
the same locality two years later. 
768
Although I give you no testimony as to the specific cases with the
invesfigation of which you are charged, I have felt it my duty, under
your call, to submit, in corroboratioii thereof~ this incomplete record of
my knowledge of frauds aiid mismauagcnient in Indian affairs.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
HENRY E. ALVORD.
llon. THOS. C. FLETCHER,
Chairman S~ecial Indian Commission,
~bbitt House, WasMngton, D. C.
CoMM()NwEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS,
llampsltire, ss:
SEPTEMBER 13, A. D. 1575.
Then the above-named Henry E. Alvord personally appeared, and made solemn oath to
the truth of the above and foregoing docume'it, by him written and subscribed, before me.
[SEAL.]                                    WM. G. BASSETT,
Notary Pubtic.
LETTER FROM HON. FELIX R. BRUNOT.
VERONA STATION, A. V. R. R.,
September 11, 1875.
DEAR SIR: Your letter of 9th instant, informing me that the coin mission of which you are chairman will remain in session during ten days
in ~rashington, and inviting me to meet the commission, or, if I cannot
do so, to "forward a full statement of all matters within your (my)
knowledge touching such frauds or mismanagement, and especially any
knowledge you may have showing that the J)epartment of the Interior
knew of the same, or knew of any other fr~~~5~~~ is received, and I have
the honor to reply:
It will not be convenient for me to visit Washington, nor, from my
present views of duty, do I feel called upon to make any detailed state.
ment upon the points in question.
As chairman of the old Board of Indian Commissioners, I had frequent
occasion to invite the attention of the Interior Department to abuses 111
the Indian service. The correspondence is on file in that Department,
~nd also in the Office of the Board of Indian Commissioners.
The correspondence of the executive committee is also on file in the
same offices, together with reports, affidavits, statements, &c., which
influenced the conclusioiis of the board, and the last annual report of
the board is in print. To these papers I beg leave to refer your commission.
Appreciating the difficulties of your position, and sincerely hoping
that you may reach a right conclusion,
I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
FELIX R. BRUNOT.
llon. THOS. C. FLETCHER,
Chairn~ an. 
769
LETTER FP~O~L TllOMAS K. CREE.
PITTSBUR~~ll, ~cj~frn~ber 16, 1876.
SIR: I have to apologize for seen~ing ~egleet of yoiir communication
of September 9, which ieached me here after several days' delay.
Iiireply, I have the honor to say that it is iiot collvenient for me to
visit ~Yashingto~ at the present time for the purpose of appearing before your committee, nor have I any statement to make in regard to the
subject under investigation.
~~ery respectft~liy, your obedient servant,
TllO~IAS K. CREE.
lion. TllOMAs C. F~~~c~~~,
Ch(~ irn~ (f ~~ of COflin? iss 0 fl ~f'e.
49 1 F  
APPENDIX.
BEEF.
CONTRACT ~ITH J. F. FOREMAN.
Articles of agreement made and entered into, this 14th day of Jnly, eighteen hnndred
and seventy-fonr, by Edward P. Smith, Commissioner of Indian Aftairs, for and ill
behalf of the United States, of the first part, and J. K. Foremen, of Omaha, Nebraska,
of the second part, witnesseth:
That the said party of the second part, for himself, his heirs, exeentors, and administraors, hereby covenants and agrees with the said party of the first part, to fnrnish
and deliver at the place within named, to such agent or agents of the United States as
may be appointed to receive them, according to the terms of the annexed advertisement, the heef embraced and at the prices named in the schedule herenato annexed,
which schednie it is agreed shall form a part of this agreement.
The party of the first part, however, reserves the right to reqnire a greater or less
<inantity, ROt exceeding 25 per cent. in either case, of any of the articles thau that
specified in said schednie, at the price or prices therein stated, of which increase or
decrease in the qnantity required a reasonable notice should be given to the party of
the second part.
It is also further agreed between the parties hereto,. that all the beef offered for acceptance nnder this contract shall he subject to a thorongh inspection, and if on such
inspection any of it fail to conform to the reqnirements of this contract, the same shall
be rejected by the parties making the inspection, who shall have mithority to require
~f the said party of the second part the delivery within five days after snch rejectiou
`of proper beef in the place of that rejected. In case said party of the second part shall
faji to deliver proper beef within the said period of five days, then the said party of
the first part shall have the right to purchase, or cause to be purchased, in open market,
or otherwise, such beef as may be reqnired to supply the deficiency, and it is agreed
and understood by the party of the second part, that he and his sureties shall be held
accountable under the bond which may be given for the faithfnl performance of this
contract, or any excess in the cost of the beef so pnrchased, over and nbove what the
same would cost at the price designated in said schednie.
The party of the first part agrees to pay, or cause to be paid, to the said party of the
second part, his heirs, execntors, or administrators, for all the beef received under this
contract at the rate or price designated on said schedule, payment to be made on the
receipts of the respective agents after tjiey shall have been properly approved.
It is agreed, however, that before the United States shall he bound by this contract,
a bond in the sum of $150,000 shall be executed by said party of the second part, with
two or more good and sufficient sureties, said bond to be conditioned for the faithful
performance of this contract in all its particulars by the said party of~he second part.
It is hereby expressly understood that no member of Congress shall be admitted to
any share or part of this contract, or any benefit to arise therefrom, which provision is
hereby inserted in compliance with the third section of an act concerning public contracts approved April 21, 1508, and it is fnrtlier understood that the provisions contained in the first section of said act are hereby made a part and parcel of this agreement.
In witness whereof the parties hereto have hereunto set their hands and seals the
day and year first above written.
EDW. P. SMITll,
Cornn~i~sioeer of ledian Affai~'s.
JAMES K. FOREMAN. [SEAL.]
Bond.
Know all men by these present that we, J. K. Foreman, of Omaha, Nebraska, as prinelpal, and James W. Bosler and Joseph Bosler, as sureties, are held and firmly bound
unto the United States of America in the sum of $150,000, lawfo 1 money of the said
United States, for which payment, well and truly to be made, we hereby hind ourselves 
772
and each of us, our heirs, executors, and administrators,jointly and severally, firmly by
these presents.
The condition of this obligation is such tbat if tbe ahove-boniiden J. K. Forenian,
their heirs, executors, and adallilistrators or any of thei~i, shall observe, perform, and fulfill nil a~~d singular the coveuai~ts and agreements mentioned a'~d coiitai~~ed in a certain
contract of even date bere~vith between the Uiiited States, by Edward P. Siiiith, COillInis~ioncr of Indian Aft)'~irs, and the said J. K. Foreman, then and iii that case this ohligation shall be n~~ll and void otherwise to reniaiu la full fi~rce a~~d virtua.
In te~timony whereof we have here~~nto set our hai~ds and seals this 14th day of July,
A. D. 1574.
JA~IFS K. PO1L~lAN.  [SEAL.1
JA~Ii~S ~~. BOSLER.   [SEAL.]
JO~El~lI liOSLER.     [SEAl..]
~~iti~esses to J. K. Foreman
M.C. HEEMAN.
DAVID B. HEn~IAN.
~~itnesses to J. ~~. Bosler:
M.C. REn~IAN.
DAVID B. HERMAN.
A.L. SPONSLER, &
ISAAC ELLIOTT, as to Joseph Bosler.
STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA,
Cea~bcrlead Coll?lty, 88:
Before me, a notary public in and for said county and State, persoiially appeared
James ~~. Bosler, one of the sureties above named, who, l~eing duly sworn according to
law, says that he is worth the sum of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars over an~l
above all debts, incumbrances, obligations, or liabilities whatever.
JAMES W. BOSLER.
Sworn and subscribed before me this 14th day of July, 1874.
[SEAL.]                                       A. L. SPONSLER, N P.
STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA,
Ceetb~i'1aad County, 85:
Before me, a notary public in and for said county and State, perso1~ally appeared
Joseph Bosler, one of the sureties above named, who being duly sworn according to
law, says that be is worth fl~e sum of seventy-five thousand dollars over and above all
debts, inc u mbrances, obligations, or liabilities whatever.
JOSEPH BOSLER.
Sworn and subscribed before me this 14th day of July, A. D. 1874.
[SEAL.]                                       A. L. SPONSLER, N. P.
~rhercas a certain contract to supply the Indian Bureau of the United States Gov -
ernment with heef-cattle on the hoof at Yancton, ~~~~hetstone, Upper Missouri, Grand
River, Cheyenne, and Red Cloud Indian agencies, from the 1st day of J uly, 1874, until
the 1st day of July, 1875, was recently awarded by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
on the part of the United States Government, to me, the undersigned J. K. Foreman,
of Omaha, Nebraska, which contract I did on the 14th day of July, 1874, bind myself
fully on my part to execute and perform according to the terms and conditions of said
contract, as by reference tbereto will fully appear; and whereas I am now desirous of
assigning and banding over the said contract, with all my right, title, and interest
therein, and all the moneys, profits, and emoluments belonging to or in any way arising therefrom, to ~T A. Paxton, of Omaha, Nebraska, so that I shall have no further
interest in or control over tbe same:
Now, tberefore, be it known, tbat for a valuable consideration to me in hand paid by
the said N\~. A. Paxton, the receipt of which is hereby acknowledged, I do hereby assign,
transfer, and set over unto the said ~V. A. Paxton, his executors, administrators, and
assigns, all my right, title, and interest in and to the said co'~tract, with the right to
receive for his own use all the moneys, profits, ai~d euiolun~ents belonging to or la any
way arising therefrom; the said ~V. A. Paxton, his cxecutors, administrators, and
assigns to have full control of the said coi~tract for hiS owl use and belioof without
any interfi~rence whatsoever by or froin nie or from any person or persons claiming hy,
under, or through me.
In witness whereof I have hereuiito set my hand and seal this 30th day of July, A. D.
1574.
JA~IFS K. FOREMAN.
~Vitness
M.C. llEE~IAN.
DAVID B. HERMAN. 
t&)
~Jie~~e1e of ai~Iic1&~ t~feit'ed to in tic foregoing co~~troct be~~veen the ~Tnitcd ~tates, by F. P.
No~ith, C'oo~a~issioaer of indica Aftairs, end J. J~. loremen, of the city of On~eha, ~Thbraska.
Articles.
22,500,000 pounds of beef, to average 850 pounds from July 1,1874, to January 1,
1875, and 1,000 pounds from January 1 to July 1, 1875, to be delivered as follows, viz:
1, 500, 000 pounds at Yancton agency.
5, 400, 000 pounds at Whetstone agency.
1, 800, 000 pounds at Upper ~1issonri agency.
5, 000 000 pounds at Grand River agency.
400, 000 pounds at Cheyenne agency.
5, 400, 000 pounds at Red Cloud agency.
22, 500, 000 pounds, at $2.3O~3~ per 100 pounds.
con I? ESPONDENCE AlIOUT ADDITIONAL SUl'I~Lv.
The ibilowing is the correspondence relatire to the additional supply of beef under
the above contract, which had been assigned to`V. A. Paxton:
Cornrnissione~ Smith to IV. A. Paxton.
DEPARTMENT OF TllE INTERIOR,
OFFICE OF INDIAN AFFAIRs,
TVashiagton, B. C., March 13, 1875.
S~~: You will please furnish for the Red Cloud and Whetstone agencies, on the
reqnisitions ef the respective agents, beef in the amount of the 25 per cent. increase
provided for under the contract of J. K. Foreman with this Department of July 14,
1874, assigned to you July 30, 1874.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
EDW. P. SMITH,
Con~n issioner
W. A. PAXTON, Esq.,
Omaha, iVeb.
W. A. Pexten to Commissioner Smith.
~~SuINGTON, D. C., Mm~ch 13,1875.
S~n: I am in receipt of your letter of this date, calling upon me, as contiactor for
beef at the Red Cloud and Whetstone agencies, to he prepared to furnish the Governnient with 25 per cent. in addition to the amount contracted for, in accordance with a
provisioj~ in the contract giving the Government their election to this amount, and in
reference to which I have to say, that I am not prepared to funisli any further aniount
of beef-cattle than the amount named in my contract at the price named in said contract, and must decline to make any further deliveries.
My reasons for refusing are, that I have filled lay contract, which took all of the
cattle I had on hand.  The Government, by delaying their notificatioii that they would
require an increased amount, under the clause in the contract reql~iring the contractor
to have a reasonable notice, have no further claim upon me under this provision.
The Red Cloud aiid Whetstone agencies are so far distant froin the source of supplies
that are availahle, that it would be impossihle for me to comply with your requisition
without great loss.
Very respectfully,
W. A. PAXTON,
Hon. En~v. P. S-'II~iI,                                       Con ti'actor.
Comn~issioner of Indian Affai;~s 
774
Comn~issionei' Sniith to W. A. Paxtou.
DLPAI)T~tENT Ol TIlL INTERIOR,
C)i~FICE Ol? INI)IAN AFi~AlRs,
II~ashii~gtoi~, I). C., I'arch 15, 1875.
SIR: Yours of the 13th instant, declii~iug, f~r reasoi~s stated therein, to furnish any
further supply of beef for the Red Cloud and ~Vhetstone agencies, as requested in Office
letter of same date, has been received, and I have iiOW to request to be informed
whether or not you arc prepared to make any proposition in the prenlises, with a view
of supplying the heef at present required for the agencies ~ia~~~ed  and, if so, what ~
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
FDW. P. SMITll,
Con~ntissioiio'.
W. A. PAXTON, Lsq.,
Oa~aha, Vcbi~.
fJ~. A. Paxton to Coatniissionei ~aiith.
~VASiiINGTON, D. C., ~arch 15, 1875.
SiR: In answer to your conimunication of this date, I have to say that I will furnish
you any flirther aniount of beef-cattle that you lilay require, ~nore than tlie amount
named in niy contract, at an increase of oiie ceiit per pouiid heing three dollars and thirty
and one-thirtieth cents (3.30?)) per one hundred pounds gross.
Very respectfully,
~\~. A. PAXTON.
Hon. E. P. SMiTR,
Coaiaiissioacr Iitdion 1ffaii's, JFashington, I). C.
Coairn issiou~r Smith to Secrctai~y Delano.
DRPART~IENT OF Til F INTER tOit,
OFFICE OF INDIAN AFFAIRS,
1~~ashington, 1). C., March 15, 1875.
SIR: I have the honor to report, that oji the 13th Ilistant this Office called upon Mr.
~V. A. Paxton, contractor, to flirnish tlie Red Cloud and NVhetstone agencies with the
25 per cent. increase of beef provided for under liis contract with this Office.
On same date Mr. Paxton replies, declining to furnish the beef requested, for tlie reason that he, not having been notified within a reasonable time that said additional
beef would be required, considers his contract for said agencies filled.
The coutnict provides that notice for furnishing the additional 25 per cent. increase
shall be given within a reasonable time. This notice, however, could not be given
sooner, owing to the want of funds, the law prohibiting any contract beyond the funds
on hand and applicable.
On this date a letter was addressed to Mr. Faxton, asking whether lie was prepared
to make any proposition with a view to supplyi~ig the additional beef required for the
agencies above iiaiiied to which lie replies that he will furnish tlie quantity required
at aii increase of one cent per pound gross, making tlie price $3.30#iF) per 100 pounds
Instead of $2.30mi0o
The two letters of Mr. Paxton are i~idosed herewith, and I have respectf'illy to
suggest that the sanie be submitted to the honorable Board of Indian Commissioners
for its views.
Very respectfiilly, your obedient servant,
LDW. P. SMITH,
Coainiissioaei'.
Hon. SECRETARY OF TilE INTEItIOR.
~~~O'~0~J D('le 0 to Coatatissioner Sm ti?.
LEPARTMENT OF TilE INTERtOJI,
JVashiegtea, D. C., Morch 17, 1875.
SIR: I relu~~ n~~~~4Itu rue letters ot ~. A. Paxton which accompanied your report
of the 15th in~tant, relative to fiirnisliiiig beef for tlie Indian ser~ice at the Red Clonil
and ~Yhetstou~ n encies during the reiiiainder of tlie liscal year.
I transmit a copy of a communication of this date froni the Board of Indian Com 
775
missioners, by its secretary, to which the subject was referred, and, agreeably to the
recommeudation therein contained, authority is hereby granted to contract with W. A.
Paxton for such quantity of beef as may be required at the agencies named for the time
specified, at the cost of 3 cents per pound, gross, deliverable at said agencies.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant
C. DELANO,
Seci'cte?`y.
The COM~r1SsIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS.
F. H. Smith to Sccretei'y Beiaao.
BOARD OF INDIAN COMMISSIONFus,
TI~shiagton, B. C., Merd~ 17, 1575.
SiR: I have the honor to acknowledge, by reference from your Office, a letter from
llon. E. P. Smith, Coin missioner of Indian Afl~irs, of the 15th instant, inclosiiig two
letteis from N\~. A. Buxton, relative to a further supply of beef for Red Cloud and
~Vl~etstone agencies.
I ain instructed by the purchasing-committee of fl~is board to respectfully recoinmend that a contract be made with the present contractor, ~V. A. Buxton, for the
supply of such quantity of beef as the Department may require at said agencies dur~ng tl~e remainder of the present fiscal year at the price of 3 cents per pound on the
hoof, deli cored at the respective agencies.
The committee believe, considerin g the exigency requiring immediate delivery, it is
not practicable to advertise for this additional supply nuder circumstances that would
be likely to meet the requirements of the sercice in respect to promptness of delivery,
and they regard the price named, which, after verbal consultation, it is uiiderstood the
contractor will accept, as reasonable for beef to be purchased at this season of the
year.
Very respectfully, your obedient servaii t
F. H. SMlTfl
Secretary.
lion. C. DELANO.
Secrelaiy of the Iaterioi~.
e~ONTRAcT WITR W. A. PAXTON FOR ADDITIONAL SUPPLY.
Articles of agreement made and entered into this 17th day of March, A. D. eighteen
hundred and seventy-five, by E. P. Smith, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, for and in
behalf of the United States, of the first part, and ~V. A. Paxton, of Omaha, Nebr., of
the second part, witnesseth:
That tlie said party of the second part, for himself, heirs, executors, and administrators, hereby covenant and agree with the said party of the first part to furnish and
deliver, at the places herein designated, to such agent or agents of the United States as
may be appointed to receive it, beef-cattle, on the hoof, in the quantities and at the
pHees herein stated.
Price.
Qnantity,  Place of deliverv.     Times of delivery.  Xin(l of c.tttle. Grossweigbt
pounds.
per lOGibs.
5, 000. 000 lIed (?loiid and Spotted  On tbe orders of the Good merchantable beef $3 00
Tail In~lian agencies. respec~ice Indi;~n cattle, averaging 550
agents.            penuds gross.
The p-~rty of tlie first part, however, reserves the right to require a greater or less
~uaiitity, not exceeding twenty-five per cent. iii eitl~er Qase, than that specified iii said
s~-Iiednle, at the pri~e or prices therein state~l, of which increase or decrease in tlie quantity required a reasoiiable notice shall be given to the party of the second part.
The ~iarty of the second part agrees to keep the beef cattle iii tlie vicinity of the
places of dcli very, to be delivered when re~jnir~d; and should he fail to collect cattle
at such points fast enongl~, or should he flill to deliver theiii as required, tise party of
the first part shall have the right to purchase, or cause to be purchased, beef-cattle as
he niay elect, at the expense of the party of the second part. 
776
It is also further agreed between the parties hereto that if any of the cattle offered
for acceptance shall fail to eon form to the requirements of this contract, the same shall
be rejected by the agent to whoni the same is oftbred, who shall have authority to require of the said party of the second part the delivery, within five days after such
rejection, of proper cattle in the place of those rejected; and in case the said party of
the second part shall fail to deliver cattle of the kind required within the said period
of five days, then the said party of the first part shall have the right to purchase, or
cause to be purchased, in open market, or otherwise, such cattle as inay be required to
supply the deficiency. And it is agreed and understood by the parties hereto that the
said party of the second part and his sureties shall be held accountable, under the
bond which may be given for the fiiithful performance of this contract, for any excess
in the cost of the cattle so purchased over and above what the same articles would
have cost at the price or prices designated in said schedule.
The party of the first part agrees to pay, or cause to be paid, to the said party of the
second part, his heirs, executors, or administrators, for all the cattle received under
this contract, at the rate or price designated in the above schedule; payment to be
made on presentation, at the oft' cc of Indian affairs, of proper receipts of the respective
agents, after the same shall have been properly approved.
It is agreed, however, that, before the United States shall be bound by this contract,
a bond, iu the sum of forty thousand dollars, shall be executed by the said party of the
second part, with two or more good and suthelent sureties said bond to be conditioned
for the faithful performance of this contract, in all its particulars, by the said party of
the second part.
It is herehy expressly understood that no member of Congress shall be admitted to
any share or part of this contract, or any benefit to arise therefrom, which provision is
hereby inserted in compliance with the third section of an act concerning public contracts, approved the 21st of April, iSOS; and it is further understood that the provisions
contained in the first section of said act are hereby made a part and parcel of this
agreement.
In witness whereof, the parties hereto have hereunto set their hands and seals the
day and year first above written.
EDWARD P. SMITH,         [L. 5.]
Commissioner of Indian A i)airs.
W. A. PAXTON,            [L. s.]
Signed in presence of     F. J. D~wi~~.
T. S. CLARasON.
Bond.
Know all men by these presents, that we, W. A. Paxton, as principal, and James`V.
Bosler and Joseph Bosler, as sureties, are held and firmly bound unto the United States
of America in the sum of forty thousand dollars, lawful money of the said United
States, for which payment, well and truly to be made, we hereby bind ourselves, and
each of us, our heirs, executors, and administrators, jointly and  everally, firmly by
these presents.
The condition of this obligation is such that, if the above-bounden W. A. Paxton,
James W. Bosler, and Joseph Bosler, their heirs, executors, or administrators, or any
of them, shall observe, perform, and fulfill, all atid singular the covenants and agreements mentioned and contained in a certain contract of even date herewith, between
the United States, by E. P. Smith, Comniissioner of Indian Affairs, and the said W. A.
Paxton, then and in that case this obligation shall be null and void  otherwise to reniaiu in full force and virtue.
In testimony whereof we have hereunto set our hands and seals this 17th day of
March, A. D. 1575.
W. A. PAXTON.    [L. S.]
J. W. BOSLi~R.   [L. 5.]
JOSEPH BOSLER. [L. a.]
Witness:
A. L. SPON5LLR.
H. NEwaHAM.
STh~R OF PLNNsYLvANtA,
Coi~aty of Cumberland, 88:
Before me, a notary public in and for said county and State, personally came J. W.
Bosler, one of the sureties in the foregoing bond above named, who, being duly sworn,
de~oses and says that he is worth forty thousand dollars over and above all debts,
claims, demands, or liabilities of any character against him whatever.
J. W. BOSLER.
Sworn and subscribed before me this 17th day of March, A. D. 1575.
[sEAL.]                                           A. L. SPONSLER, N. P. 
777
STATE OF PENXsYLVANIA,
C'o~~i~ty oj Cr'oiberlond, ss:
Before me, a notary public in arid for said coiinty and State, personally cailie Joseph
Bosier, orie of the sureties ill the foregoing bond above named, who, being dnly sworn,
duposes and says that he is ~~crth tire suin of ~40,000 over and above all debts, claims,
and deniands, or liabilities of any character against him whatever.
JOSEPIf BOSLER.
Sworn ai~d subscribed before inc this 17th day of ~farch, A. D. 1575.
LsEAL.]                                                       A. L. SPONSLER, N. I'.
CONTRACT WITH SETit MAnRv.
Articles of agreement made and entered into this seventh day of May, A. D. eighteen
hundred and seventy-five, by Edward P. Smith, Coniuiissioiier of Indian Affairs, for
arid in behalf of the United States, of the first part, and Seth Mab ry, of Austin, Texas,
of the secoud part, witnesseth:
That the said party of the second part, for himself, his heirs, executors, and administrators, hereby covenants and agrees with the said party of the first part to furnish and
deliver. at the places hereiu designated, to such agent or agents of tlie United States as
niay be appointed to receive it, beef-cattle, on the hoof, in the qunistities and at the prices
herein stated.
Quanlity.           Place of delivery.         Times of delivery.    Kind of cattle.
Lbs. gross. San tee Sioux agency      ( For     and Santee  Good merchantable 1
401), 000                                        Ponca
1, 500, 000 Yaocton agency                     agencies, one deliv-  Texas cattle, a~er
5, 000, 000 Spotted Tail agency                cry before July 1,    aging 550 pounds
1, nOC, 000 Upper Missouri (Crow Creek) agency and one about May     gross for each of
5, 000, 000 Cheyenne River agency              1, i0~6.              the six months  2 46i
6, 500, 000  Standing Rock agency        ) The beef for the otber ending December
9, 000, 000 Red Cloud agency                   agencies for Jaun.    31 and July 31.
300, 000    Ponca agency                       ary, February, and
March, one delivery
I       for  freezing  pur.
poses.
The party of the first part, however, reserves the right to require a greater or less
quantity, not exceeding twenty-five per cent. in either case, than that specified in said
schedule, at the price or prices therein stated, of which increase or decrease in the quantity required notice shall be given to the party of the second part on or before the 31st
day of August, 1875.
The party of the second part agrees to keep the beef-cattle in the vicinity of the
places of delivery, to be delivered when required; and should he fail to collect cattle
at sireb points fast enough, or should he fail to deliver them as required, the party of
the first part shall have the right to purchase, or cause to be purchased, beef-cattle as
he may elect, at the expense of the party of the second part.
It is further agreed between the parties hereto that if atly of the cattle offered for
acceptance shall fail to conform to the requirements of this contract, tlie satne shall be
rejected by the agent to whom the same is offered, who shall have authority to require
of the said party of the second part the delivery, within five days after such rejection,
of proper cattle in the place of those rejected; and in case the said party of tire second
part shall fail to deliver cattle of the kind required within tire said period of five days,
then the said party of the first part shall have the right to purchase, or cause to be parchased, in open niarket, or otherwise, such cattle as may be required to supply the deficiency.  And it is agreed and understood by the parties hereto that the said party of
the second part and his sureties shall be held accountable, under the bond which may
be given for the faithful performance of this contract, for any excess in the cost of cattle
so lirirchased over and above what the same articles would have cost at the price or
prices designated in said schedule.
Tire party of the first part agrees to pay, or cause to be paid, to the said party of the
second part, his heirs, executors, or administrators, for all the cattle received nuder
this contract, at the rate or price designated ill the above schedule; paynreirt to be
urade on presentation, at the Office of Indian Affairs, of proper receipts of the respective agents, after the same have been properly approved.
It is agreed, however, that, before the United States shall be bonnd by this contract,
a bond, in the sum of five hundred thousand dollars, shall be executed by the said party
of the second part, with two or more good and sufficient sureties; said bond to be con 
778
ditioned for the taithfi~i performance of this contract, ill all its particnlars, by th~
said party of the second part.
It is hereby expres~ly undenstood that no member of Congress shall be admitted to
any share or part of this contract, or any benefit to arise thercfrom, which provision is
hereby inserted in compliance with the third section of all act concerning public con         tracts, approved tlie 21st of April, 1S0(5 and it is flirther nuderstood that the provisions
contained in the first section of said act are hereby niade a part and parcel of this
agreement.
In witness whereof tl~e parties hereto have lierenuto set their hands and seals the
day and year first above writtcn.
EDWARD P. SMITh.   [n. s.]
Co oi oiissio ii ~ oJ Tt dI~ ii A~~~irs.
SETll MAl3RY.          [L. s.]
Signed in the presence of                  D. W. C. Wu~EnEn.
C. D. WooLwoj{~ii.
Bond.
I~now all men by these presents, that we, Seth Mal~ry, as priiicipal, and James W.
Boslcr, of Carlisle,I)ciina.. aiid A. H. Wilder, of St. Piul, j~Iinuesota, as snreties, are held
and firmly boni0d nnto the Uiiited States of America in the snin of five hundred thou         sand dollars, lawfiil Ilioney of tlie said United States, for which paynient, well and
truly to be made, we hereby bind ourselves, and each of us, onr heirs, execntors, and
adiii inistrators, joi itly aiiil severally, firmly by these presents.
The condition of this obligation is sncli that if the above-bounden Seth Mabry, their
heirs, executors, or administrators, or any of them, shall observe, perfi~rm, and fnlfill,
all and singular the covenants and agreeiiients mentioned aiid contained in a certain
contract of even date herewith, between tile United States, by Edward P. Siiiith, Coni         missioiicr of Ijidian Affairs, aiiil the said Seth Mabry, of Austin, Texas, then and in that
case this obligation shall be null and void; otherwise to remain iii flill force and virtue.
In t~stiinouy ~vhereof we have hereunto set onr bands and seals this 7th day of
May, A. D. 1~75.
SETH MABRY.  [L. s.~
J.W. BOSLER. [L. s.]
A.H. WILDER. LL. s.]
STATE OF NEw Y()RK,
City and County of~%ew Vork, 88:
J. W. Bosler, being duly sworn, says that lie is worth five hundred thousand dollars
over and above all debts and liabilities.
J. W. BOSLER.
Sworii to and subscribed before nie this 7th day of May, A. D. 1875.
[SEAL]                                          WILLIAM F. LETT,
~%&tary Public foi ~~iv York County and 8tate, 335 Broadway,
STATE OF N~w Y0EK,                     ~Thw York, Room 1,first floor, first office.
City and County of~eic York, 88:
A. II. Wilder, being duly sworn, says that he is worth two hnndred and fifty thou         sand dollars over and above all debts and liabilities.
A. H. WILDER.
Sworn to and snbscribed before me this 7th day of May, A. D. 1875.
[sEA~.3                                                 W. F. LETT,
Notary Public.
PORK AND FLOUR.
coNTuAcT wiTli J. W. L. SLAVENS.
4        Articlcs of agreement m;ide and entered into this eleventh day of July, A. D. eighteen
hundred and seventy-ft~ur, by Edward P. Smith, Comi~iissioiier of Iiidiau Affairs, for
and in behalf of the United States, of the first part, and J. W. L. Slaveus, of Kansas
City, and State of Missouri, of the second part, wituesseth
That the said party of the second part, for himself, his heirs, executors, and admin         istrators, hereby covenants and agrees with the said party of the first part to flirnish
and deliver at the cities of Omaha and Kansas City, or at such other place as may be
agreeil upon between the parties hereto, to such agent or agei~ts of tlie Uiiited States
as may be appointed to receive them, the articles eiiibraced, and at the prices named,
in the schedule hereunto annexed, which schedule it is agreed shall form a part of this
agreement.
The party of the first part, however, reserves the right to require a greater or les~ 
779
(itiantity, not exceeding twenty-five per cent. ill either case, of any of the articles than
that specified in the schednie, at tlie price or prices therein stated.
It is agreed between the parties hereto that all the articles embraced in tbis contract
n~nst be delivered at siich point in said cities of Omaha and Kansas City as may be
designated hy the party of the first part, packed and marked ready for shipment, accordii)  to directions, which will be given by said party of the first part.  Payment to be
niade to the party of the secoiid part for any rehaling or extra coopering re~nired by
the party of the first part, and for cases where goods are not ptirchased in what is
known to the trade as "original packages."
It is also further agreed between the parties hereto that all the articles off~red for
accel)tance nnder this contract shall be subjected to a thorough inspection and careful
coulparison with the samples thereof which have been adopted, and if, 011 sneb cornl~arison and inspection, any of the articles fail to confor~~ to or equal said samples,
the same shall he rejected by the parties making the inspection, who shall have anthority to require of the said party of the second part the delivery, within five days after snch
r~jection, of proper articles in the place of those rejected.  In case said party of the
second part shall fail to deliver proper articles within the said period of five days, then
tiie said party of the first part shall have the right to purchase, or cause to he purchased, in open market, or otherwise, such articles as may he required to sup~~ly tile
deficiency.  And it is agreed and nnderstood by the party of the second part that he
and ijis sureties shall be held accountable, nuder the bond which may be given for the
foithfill performance of this contract, for any excess in the cost of tise articles so purchased over and above what the same articles would cost at the price or prices designIted in said schedule.
Tise party of the first part agrees to pay or cause to be paid the said party of the
second 1)art, his heirs, executors, or adininistrators, for all the articles received under
tiliS contract, at the rate or price affixed to each article designated in said schedule;
payment to be snade on invoices of the goods received after they shall have been properly approved.
Jt is agreed, however, that, before the United States shall be bound by this contract,
a boiid, ill tise snisi of twenty-five thousand dollars, shall be executed by the said party
of the second l)art, with two or more good and sufficient sureties; said bond to be conditioned fi~r the faithft~l performance of this contract, in all its particulars, by the said
party of the second part.
It is hereby expressly understood that no member of Congress shall be admitted to
any share or part of this contract, or any benefit to arise therefrom, which provision is
lsereby inserted in conii~liance with the third section of an act concerning public contracts, approved the 21st of April, 1SOd~ and it is further understood that the provisions contained in the first section of said act are hereby made a part and parcel of
thiS agreement.
Iii witness whereof the parties hereto have hereunto set their hands and seals the
day and year first above written.
EDWARD P. SMITH,           [L. 5.]
Coa~missioec~ of hl do in A ffairs.
J. W. L. SLAVENS.          [L. 5.]
Signed ill presence of     H.  R. CLt-M,
Tijos. E. McCu~w.
6c.hcdeto of OltiCics refer~ed lo io taefoicgois~g coetroet betncen tic ~tai!cd ~tetes, by Edca~d
J) ~oiith, Conatissiooc~' of JildiOn J~.oirs, end J. II~. L. ~ieccj~s, of the city of Kenses
City, Misso1t?~1..
Articles.                           Price.    Total.
ie.ote ponuds XX flour as follows, to be delivered at ~&ansas City, ~tissonri,
~~o.tte pounds for the Upper Arkansas agency, 1u~lian Territory,.~-2.30
per 100 1)01                                                
3~0.000 po~tnds for the Kiowa agency, Indian Territoi-y, $2.30 per i00
pIlililds                                                   
0t~0t0 Ilonuds for file Wichita agency, Indian Territory, $-2~30 per itt
1)01111(15                                       
For Ilie 3~{-il Cloud ilgency, to be delivered at (Jinahi, Nebraska, 200,000
ponods pork, at the i-ate of $2i per barrel.                              
The floor to be fresh gronod. XX qoality, to be n~ade wholly fi-cIll goo:l,
5(1)110(1 V liC(It. and to be delivei.ed iii good, stroll  double sacks, cads sack to
be l~randed - - Iiidian I3ept. flonr~'
The pork to be in barrels, with one iron hoop at each end. 
7SO
Bond.
I~now all men by tlie~e pr~sents, that we, J. ~V. L. Slavei~s, of I&ansas City, Mo., as
principal, and John H. ~Iartin, of Denver, Colo., aiid J. M. Dangberty, of Kansas City,
as snretie s, are held and firnily bound ~into the ifllited States of ~nIerica ill the
sum of twenty-five thousand dollars, lawful money of tl~e said United States, for which
payment, well and truly to be made, we hereby bind ourselves ai~d each of us, our
heirs, executors, and administrators, jointly and severally, firmly by these presellts.
The condition of this obligation is soc ii, that if the above-bounden J. ~V. L. SlaYens
his heirs, executors, or administrators, or any of them, sl~all observe, perform, and fulfill, all and singi~lar, the covenants a'~d agreements i~ientioned ai~d c~~ntained in a certain contract, of even date herewith, between the United States, by Edward P. Smith,
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and the said J. ~~. L. Slavens, then, and in that case
this obligation shall be n~~ll and void; otl~erwise to reniain iii fi~ll force and virtue.
In testimony whereof we have hereunto set our bands and seals this eleventh day
of July, A. D. 1574.
J. W. L. SLAVENS.    [L. S.]
J. II. MARTIN.       [L. 5.]
J. M. DOUGHERTY.     [L. S.]
CITY OF ~Th4SIIIxGTON,
Bistrict of Columbie, 55
Personally appeared J. M. Dougherty, and acknowledged the above to be his signature
and made solemn oath that he is worth twenty-live thousand dollars over and above
his just debts, liabilities, and exemptions.
THOMAS C. CONNOLLY, [SEAL.]
~`otary i~ublic.
Person ally appeared John II. Martin, and acknowledged the above to be his si~nature, and made solemn oath that he is worth twenty-five thousand dollars over and
abo~ e his just debts, and liabilities, and exemptions.
THOMAS C. CONNOLLY, [SEAL.]
FLOUR.
CORRESPONDENCE CONCERNING FLOUR.
Agent h~wiu to Contntissioner Smith.
SuOSHONE AND BANNACK AGENCY,
Wyoming Territory, May 5, 1874.
S~~: I have the honor to state that the beef, coffee, and sugar furnished this year for
the Shoshone Indians will about meet the demand; that there will be a surplus of
several hundred sacks of flour, and also a surplus of bacon. This is owing to the fact
that the Indians were permitted to take a hunt during tl~e summer, and also hunted
and subsisted themselves during the greater part of the winter.
I do not think it advisable to let them hunt this summer, as they will have their
crops to take care of.  If they should hunt and subsist themselves three months during
the winter, the remaining three months would require  For 1,200 souls, 275,000 pounds of beef.
For 1,200 souls, 275,000 pounds of flour.
I would respectfully suggest contracting for 200,000 pounds of each, with an additional amount if required.
I have the honor to be, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
JAMES IRWIN
Unite~l States Indica Agent.
Hon. EDW. P. SMITh,
Commissioner of Indian Affai?s, JVashington, D. C.
Agent Ir~ein to Commissioner Smith.
[Telegram.]
SHOSIlONE AND BANNACK AGENCY,
Via Cam~ Stambaugh, fljoming, July 7, 1874.
Hon. EDWARD P. SMITH,
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Thashi~~gton:
I respectfully ask instructions in regard to beef, flour, and transportation.  See two
letters dated May 5, and a proposition to furnish beef dated April 30, ultimo. 
7S1
Please instruct by telegrnu~ ~~itliout delay.  Hostile Indians on band.  Four horses
stolei~.  One company ot cavalry and two bundred Shoshones gone to the camp.  If a
fight ensues, will notify you.
JAMES IRWIN, Agc~~t.
( On  ~si0t~()' ~~nith to lgci t I)'~(.i))
[Te1&~ran~.j
Oiiic}~ INDIAN AFiAr1~s, July 13, 1S74.
JA~tES Ii.~vi~, It~dian Agent,
~1 os!~one an (1 J~(( 1 aek Agei cy, ria C~t 0~) Staniba igh, IVyn i~1g Tei'i~itoi'g
At what price can you get XX flour delivered at Brvan
L'DW. P. SM IT II,
Contn~issioiier.
Agei t Ii~~rin to (`on~~nissioiier Seiith.
[Telegrain.]
SllOSiloNE AND B~~~~c~ Anv~cv,
Via Camp Stambaugh, II)!oniii~g, July 2~, 1874.
Hon. F. P. SMITh,
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Tr~s~ ington, 1). C.
Flour, be~t XX, $3.75; X, good, $3.40, delivered nithe cars at Ogden. So say Walker
Brothers.  Send instructions on July 4 by telegram 50011.
JAS. IRWIN,
U~~ited ~Iates Judian Agent.
Commissioner Smith to Agent Ir~rin.
DEPAMuMENT OF TIlE INTERIOR, OFFICE OF INDIAN AFFAIRs,
II~shingtou, B. C., August 1, 1874.
Sin: In reply to your letter of May 5 last, and telegram of 28th ultinso, relative to
flour f~r the Shoshone and Baunack agency, I have to advise you that arrangements
have been made with J. H. Martin, of Denver, Cob., the present contractor Ii~r tke
Red Cloud agency, to furnish aud ship to you at Bryan Station, Union Pacific
Railroad, 200,OCO pounds of XX flour, at the same quality and price at which his COntract was awarded, viz, $2.50 per 100 pounds, delivered at Cheyenne, Wyo.
Yery respectfully, your obedient servant,
EDW. P. SMITH,
Commissioner
JAS. Ia~viN, Esq.,
United States Indian Agent, Sl~oshone ai~d Bai~nack Agency, Wyoniiizg.
Commissioiier Smith to J. Ii. Afartin.
DEPARTMENT OF TIlE INTERIOR, OEFICE OF INDIAN AFFAIns,
U~shingtoii, I). C., August 1, 1874
Sin: Referring to your contract with this Bureau for the delivery of flour at
Cheyenne, Wyo., for the Red Cloud Ind?au agency, I have to request that you fi~rnish
and ship to Bryan Station, Union Pacific Railroad, consigned to James Irwin, United
States Indian agent, Shoshone agency, Wyoming Territory,`200,000 pounds of flour, of
the sanie ~uality and at the same price as that upon wl~ich yonr contract was awarded,
the same to be inspected at Cheyeniie by the inspector at that point before shipment.
Your account for the flour so shipped, accompanied by the inspector's certificate and
proper l)ill of ladii~g, will, on presentation at tiliS Office, receive prompt attention.
~~ery respectfully, your ohedient servant,
FDW. P. SMITH,
Coma issionci'.
J.H. MAlITIN., ci l~ Dei~~'ei', Colo. 
782
Agent Iruin to Con~snissioncr Sn~ith.
[Telegram.]
BRYAN, ~~~Yo., &pten-~b~ S, 1874.
llon. ED. P. SMITll,
Cornrnissionn Indian Affairs, fl~shington, D. C.:
I have received no flour yet; none at the agency.  Teams bean waitiiig ii are three
weeks. Persons at Cheyenne forward to Sioi~x agencies as fast as it arrivcd. They
can freight all winter; we cannot. I respectfully request you to notifyj. II. Martia to
furnish Shoshone agency two thousand sacks immediately, and also notif~ Palmer, at
Cheyenne, to let it he shipped to Bryan. Matter explained by letter. No annuity.
goods yet.
JAS. IRWIN,
Agei t Sh asl~ones, ii )jon rig J'c~~~'itoi'y.
Age~~t I)~?ti~l to Con~n~issio~~~r Sn~itJi.
SI!OsIlONE AND Il~~N~c~ AGENcY,
!l)Ion~ing Ter~~itory, A~j~tember 14, 1574.
Sia. I have the honor to report that. having learned on the 29th August that no flour
had arrived at Bryan and none at the agency, and four teams having waited over a
week at Bryan, I started to the railroad, and not being able to learn anything definite,
went on to Cheyenne.  I there found a Mr. Palmer and Mr. Appleton, who were handling flour in the interest of the Red Cloud agency. I discovercd that all the flour recalved up to that time, except one car-load ou hand and seemed to disregard the extremity in which I was placed.
Seeing that nothing could be du4e at that point I went on to D~nver, and saw J. II.
~Iartin, who inforiued me that he was consigning tiie flour to Dr. Saville, by instructions, hut did not suppose it made any differeace, and I do not tliiiik that it should.
Mr. Martin went with me to the Red Cloud railroad agent and h ad the consignment
of the car at Cheyenne changed. The car4oad at Denver was also consigned to me. I
entered this car, No. 4180, K. C., and examined the flour, and do aver that it is equal, if
not superior, to the sample contracted for with J. II. Martin.
On my return to Cheyenne I found dissatisfitetion in regard to the car ther~~, finding
Palmer and ~ppleton disposed to take all they could get, and that they had a man,
French, inspecting flour who woi~ld not iI~spect flour for me without special a~ithority
from the Government. For his history I refer t() Goveriior Ca'npball or a10y other reliable citizen of Cheyenne. I employed D. F. \Vhippla to inspect aiid ship flour to
Bryan for this agency.
In the matter of inspactiiig flour, I furnished him with the (~overn'uent sample and
put him under oath, and left with him some signed-up requisitions on Government B. L.
He informs me that the car No. 4180 ca'ue ~he next day, and that a Colonel Long
notified him that he was inspector f~r Government; that Colonel Long required two or
three men to assist him, at aii expense of six or eight dollars, and condemned the flour.
His actiou is, in my opinion,. unjust to the contractor and causing uni~ecessary delay
in the delivery of my flour. A sample of K. C. car 4189 cai~ be had of D. F. ~Thipple,
certified to by freight agent of the Union Pacific Railroad at Cheyenne, I. R. Rinnock.
I will advise J. H. Martin to store the coi~demned flour at Cheyeiine and await
further action, for I do not believe that the transaction lias been characterized by a
spirit of justice and equity. If this Colonel Long has beau authorized to inspect Iadian flour, it is strange that Mr. Palmer should employ French, and say nothing to me
about a Government inspector.
I would respectfully request that D. F. ~Vhipple be permitted to receive, inspect,
and forward the Shoshone agency flour, inasmuch as lie will pro raptly and carefully
attend to it, and relieve ma from the anxiety I now feel in regard to getting flour to
the agency for the coming winter. If approved, please notify ~~hipple l)y telegram.
Coflbe for this agency, 10,120 pounds, is lying in the warehouse at l)ry~n, with Uniou
Pacific and back freights unsettled. A wagon to be used on the mountain in procuflug
lumber, and fuel, &c., was shipped from S~iint Louis, Mo., to Kearney Station, Ui~ion
Pacific, and from thence to Bryan.  Union Pacific charges, $b5.95, back charges ~tO.50.
The si~perintendant at Omaha refases to deliver until all charges are paid.  If I do not
at the wagon sooi~ I will be without ln~~iber and fuel this c~)n~iug winter, as the old
wagon is ii sale ss. I fear I will be compalleil to pay tlia charges.
No annuity-goods have yet arrived nt Bryai~.
I am, vary raspeetfolly,
JAMES IR~VIN,
~~ilf(d 8tates lidian Agc~it.
Hon. E~w. P. S~iiTIi,
Comarissionci Indian Affai~s, 1Vasliington, 1). C. 
783
Cornn~issioncr Smith to Secretary Delauo.
DEPARTMENT OF TIlE INTERIOR,
OFFICE OF INDIAN AFFAIRS
ffeshingtoe, D. C., Aegust 4, 1874.
Sin: By the terms of contracts for Indian supplies for the coming year, flour is to be
delivered at Cheyenne, ~Vyo., and Crow agency and Blackfeet agency and Fort Peck,
Mont.
From tl~e infrequent tours of the regular inspectors through this country and the
ahsence of other competent persons, it is difficult to provide for the inspection required
at these points.  I respectfully suggest the expediency of requesting the honorable
Secretary of N\~ar to authorize the commissary or some other officer at Cheyenne, Fort
Ellis, and Stevenson, respectively, to inspect Indian supplies at such times as their
services may he required. As it is not contemplated that these deliveries will he frequent, the service required will he correspondingly light and all expenses of travel can
1~e bor~ie by this Office.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
EDW. P. SMITH,
Com e~issioi~er.
Tlie honorable SECRETARY OF TRE INTERIOR.
ictinj (oe~missioaer Clum to Ies1)ccto) Long.
DEPARTMENT OF TilE INTERIOR
OlFICE OF INDIAN AFi~AIRs,
JJ~shiagton, D. C., ~cptembcr 2,1874.
S~R: At the request of this Office you have been designated hy the ~Var Department
to inspect the flour delivered at Choycune, ~~yo., by Mr. John H. Martin, under his
contract with this Department.
The sample of flour upon which you are to base your inspection is in the hands of
S. II. Palmer, store-keeper of Indian supplies at Cheyenne, who has this day heen instructed to turn the same over to yoii upon your application.
~rhcn flour is ofibred for delivery by Mr. Martin, under said contract, you will carefully compare the same with the sample and see that they are equal in every respect
before giving him the requisite certificate of inspection. Each sack of flour inspected
by you ~iust he plainly marked "Indian Department," and hear your mark of inspection.  You will please provide yourself with the necessary implements for such marking.
Blank forms of certificates to be used by you, have this day been mailed to your
address. A duplicate of each certificate giveIl must be forwarded to this Office.
All your expenses connected with these duties will be paid by this Office on receipt
of prop~rly itemized accounts.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
H. R. CLUM,
Acting Comaiissioncr.
Cap'. A. K. LON(i,
C1~ejenne, TI`go.
Con~a issionci' ~niith to SCJ)C?'IC te~~den t TV'I~ite.
DEPARTMENT OF TilE INTERIOR,
OFFICE OF INDIAN AKFAlRs,
Washington, B. C., 8e~tcmbcr 14,1874.
S~a: Twenty-five hundred sacks of flour for the Red Cloud agency are to be sl~ipped
froni Omaha within a few days by 0. P. Hurford. The transportation of this flour is
already provided for.
The service required of you is to attend to the inspection; to be satisfied that the
jiour is in accordance with the saniple which Mr. Hurford has io his possession and will
furnish yoii on application; and that it is branded "~Iudiai~ Department" by the contractor, and has the required mark of inspection by the party whom you employ for
this service.
Hurford is informed of the manner of inspection and will call upon you whcn he is
i~eady for the service.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
ED~'. P. SMITIl,
Coinmissionci'.
BARCLAY ~ViiITE,
~nJ)erin ten dent Indian AftO ii's, On~elia, ~`cbi'. 
784
Insj)ector Long to Co ni ii issiolie) Sn~it1i.
CllFYENNE, ~Vyo., Octobo 2, 1874.
lion. L. P. 8M~TII
J. 1'. ~1;~rtin is sliippin  fl~~nr tl~ie~~gl~ licie ~vithont linving it iiispccted.  Is lie so
a ntheiizcd  ~Iy biviii  rejected ilunr of all iiiferi~~r gra~ic lias caiis~~(' ~rcat diss;itisfactiOll.
AXD1~ENV K. L(~N(4,
11 e~id Cuiii i.~sa)~y Si ()SistC)iCC C S. 1., Jitsj~i~'tor Iii din; S;;])J)lies.
Con;;;; issione) SniltI; to Insj;cctor Lo;;g.
[Telegrain.]
I)~~~~T~r~NT OF TI E INTERIOR,
OF I?ICR OF INI)IAN AFFAIRs,
IVnshi;;gton, 1). C., october 3, 1874.
Capt. A~r;uR~v K. LoNG, Cheyenne, Wyo.
Twe;;ty-five h;~ndred sacks under ~1artin's contract have heen inspected at Omaha.
Your thorough ius1)ection is all right.
FD~V. P. SMITH,
Comn;issioner.
(on;n;issionc; Smith to Supeintendent TVhitc.
DEPARTMENT OF TIlE INTEElOR,
OH~ICE OF INDIAN AFFAIRs,
II~ashThgton, D. C., October 10, 1874.
SiR: J. H. Martin, contractor for flonr for the Shoshones, has permission to have 1,100
sacks of flour inspected at O;~nha hy you. The statement has been made that this inspection is desired at Omaha rather than at Cheyenne on account of the strictness with
which the contractor has heen held to his sample by the Cheyenne inspector.
This statement is fnrnished you for your information and with the reqnest that you
will use all diligence to require a strict conforuiity to the saniple, and to assure yourself
that tlie person employed in the ii;spection is thoroughly competent for the service.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
IS. P. SMITH,
Coninijisione;..
B~~RCLAY ~VRITE,
S;i1)cri;;te;;de;; t of India;; A br~Iirs, Omaha, ~Thbr.
~;j)e;~in tendent It'hite to Co ii; missione; Sn; it!;.
NORTliERN ~UPEuINTENDENCv,
OFFICE OF SUPERINTENDENT INDIAN AFFAIlIS,
Omaha, ~~b;~., 7th niont!;, 19, 1875.
REsPECTED FRi~xD: Thy telegram of 17th instant was received after 5 p. in. on the
18th instant.  I have carefully examined the files of letters and telegrams in my office,
and am unable to find any letter or telegram from the Office of Indian Aff(.iirs relative
to the double sample of flour offered me, as inspector of supplies, by the contractors
for flirnishing flour to the Red Cloud agency.  I have no recollection of liavin received such a letter, and I thiuk I can safely say no such letter has beeii received in
this office from tlie Indian Department.
Under instructions contained in thy letter of August 1, 1874, 1 appointed ~Villiaui I.
Yates, an old miller and store-keeper, as suliluspector of Iu;liaii supplies fi~r this office.
He has been in tl;e employ of the office as freight-cled~ for tive yeI;rs, and hears a good
reputation for honesty aiid integrity.  So;;u after tl;y letter of 14th September, 1874,
was received, 0. P. Hurfi~rd, therein mentioned, deposited lis this office a sample of
flour, which he stated was siniilar iii quality to the sa;;iple accompanying l;is bid forwarded to the Commissioner of Indiaii Affi~irs and i;;eii;bers of tl;e I~oard of Indiaa
Commissioners, in New York, anil commenced delivering, at tl;e IJulon Pacific Railroad
depot, sacks of flour to fill the contract.  My instructions to the snbii;spector were to
inspect every sack, reject all below the quality of the sample, and brai;d every sack 
785
accepted "Indian Department, Barclay ~Vhite, U. S. Ii~spector." A few hundred sacks
bad been inspected, when 0. P. Hurford presented another sample of flour, inferior in
quality to the first sample, which he then stated was of the same quality as the sample
accompanying his bid, that the boys in his mill had ii'ade a mistake, &c. About two
hundred sacks were inspected by sample No. 2. All the flour in them was superior to
said sample, but inferior to No. 1.
At this period of time, B. R. Roberts, a member of the Board of Indian Commissioners, visited my office, and I submitted the two samples to his inspection. He pronounced No. 1 equal in quality and No. 2 inferior in quality to the sample deposited by
Hurford with his bid. I immediately notified Hurford and the subinspector that all
the fiour must in future be fully equal in quality to No. 1. S~,ou after Commissioner
Roberts returned to ~Vashington, I received a letter from him, dated eleventh month,
4, 1674, upon various Indian subjects, and in which he wHtes: "In relation to inspection of flour at Omaha, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs a~~i~ears to fear some intention to cheat in the matter, and asked if any had been passeil tower in grade than the
first sample produced. My reply was that I believed not. I have not yet seen the contract, but the Commissicner says it is for Lhe best flour, and nothing bdow that should
be received. If the flour t~ go to Shoshones has not already been sent forwar,,d, I would
not in ark any that was below the sample in thy office, i. e., the best sample.
Two thonsaiid seven hundred and forty-nine (2,749) sacks of flour, weighing two
hundred and fifty thousand nine hundred and forty-four (250,944) pounds, for Red
Cloud agency, and eleven hundred and twenty-nine (1,129) sacks of flour, weighing
one huiidred and ten thousand and ninety-two (110,092) pounds, for Slioshones and
Bannacks, were inspected by this office during the year A. D. 1874, all, with the exception of tlie two hui~dred sacks (200) above mentioned, fully equal to sample No. 1, now
on deposit in this office, and all marked with brand above mentioned.
~~ery respectfolly, thy fliend,
BARCLAY WHITE,
1lo~. E. P. SMITh,                          ~~reriatendeet ledian Affairs.
~~eimissioiier India ii Affaiis, IVashingion, D. C
TRANSPORTATION.
CONTRACT ~ITH D. J. MCCANN.
Articles of agreement made and entered into this 8th day of July, A. D. 1874, by and
between Edward P. Smith, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, for and on behalf of the
-t~nited States, of the first part, and D. J. McCann, of Nebraska City, N~bn, of the
second part, witnesseth:
That the said party of the second part agrees to receive in the city of New York and
in the city of Philadelphia, between the date of this agreement and the 30th day of June,
1875, all such goods and supplies as may be purchased for the Indian Department during the fiscal year ending on said 30th day of June, 1875, the same to be shipped in
souiid and water-proof cars to the following iiamed points, and at the rates hereto aniiexed, viz:
From New York and Philadelphia to Omaha, Nebr., at the rate of 60 cents per one
hundred pounds; from New York and Philadelphia to Kansas City, Mo., at the rate
of 50 cents per one hundred pounds; and from New York and Philadelphia to Cheyenne,
Wyo., at the rate of $1.05 per one hundred pounds; and from Omaha to Cheyenne, at
the rate of 45 ceiits per one hundred pounds.
The said party of the second part further agrees to transport in good covered wagons
froni Cheyenne, Wyo., to the Red Cloud Indian agency, Dak., all the goods and supplies
of the Indian Department that may be purchased for the said agency during the fiscal
year endiiig June 30, 1875, aud also, if desired by the party of the first part, due notice
to that e~ect being first given to the party of the second part, any or all of flie supplies
and goods that may be purchased for the Whetstone agency, Dak., at tlie rate of $1.10
per one hundred ponnd~ per one hundred niiles, actual measurement of the route necessary to be traveled.
~`he sai~l party of the second part forther agrees to commeiice the traiisporfation of
said goods as soon as notified by the Commis~ioner of Indian Affairs that the said
goods are ready for shipmeiit and to complete said traiisportatioii as q~iickly as possible
aiid`vithojit nunecessary delay, said goods and supplie to be turneil over as follows,
viz: At Omaha, Nebr., to tlie superintendent of Indian affaii~s for the uorther'i snp[~riI1tendeiicy; at Kansas City, ~to., to`V. C. Craham, freight-contractor; at Cheyenne, Wyo.,
to flic store keeper of the Red Cloud Indian agency; aiid at flie 1?ed Clou~l agency, to
tie Indian agent iii charge of the same.
50 I P 
786
In consideration of the faithful performance of this agreement on the part of the
party of the second part, the said party of the first part agrees to pay or cause to be
paid to tiie said party of the second part, his heirs, executors, administrators, for all
~ervices rendered under this contract, the rates hereinbefore specified for the transportation from a~~d to the several points herein named.
And it is further agreed, that the party of the second part will transport any Indian
goods and supplies that the party of the first part shall desire to have transported from
New York and Philadelphia to Bryan, Wyo., and Bridger, Utah, during the present
fiscal year; and the party of the first part hereby agrees to pay or cause to be.paid to
the party of the second part, for such service, the following.named prices, viz: From
New York and Philadelphia to Bryan, Wyo., the sum of $3.18 per one hundred pounds,
and from same points to Bridger, Utah, the sum of $3.34 per one hundred pounds, due
notice to be given to the party of the second part by the party of the first part, that
such transportation will be required.
It is further agreed that in case any one or more of the wagon-trains of the said
party of the second part shall be delayed by authority of any Government officer or
agent, at any place between Cheyenne, ~Vyo., and the Red Cloud or ~~hetstone agency,
Dak., for any time exceeding two days, the party of the first part shall pay or cause to
be paid to the party of the second part, upon a statement in wHting from the officer or
agent causing the delay, setting forth the reasons or causes for issuing such orders,
the sum of $2 per diem for each and every yoke of cattle or span of mules in the train
for each and every day they may be delayed. It is further agreed, that in case the
officer or agent aforesaid of the Government shall refuse to furnish the statement in
writing above referred to, then the delay shall be paid for, as above, on the affidavits or
other satisfactory evidence of two or more credible and competent witnesses.
It is further agreed, however. that before the United States shall be bound by this
contract; a bond in the penal sum of $40,000, lawfiil money of the United States, shall
be executed by the said party of the second part with two or more good and sufficient
sureties, said bond to be conditioned for the faithful performance of this contract in
all its particulars by the said party of the second part.
It is hereby expressly understood that no member of Congress shall be admitted to
any share or part of this contract or any beuefit to arise therefrom, which provision is
hereby inserted in compliance with the third section of an act concerning public contracts, approved the 21st of April, 1808; and it is further understood that the provisions
contained in.the first section of said act are hereby made a part and parcel of this
agreement.
In witness whereof the parties hereto have hereunto set their hands and seals the
day and year first above written.
EDWARD P. SMITH,
Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
D. J. McCANN.        [SEAL.]
~Vitness
M.S. COoF
EFFORTS TO ASCERTAIN THE DISTANCE.
Commissionci- Smith to L. S. Hayden.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,
OFFICE OF INDIAN AFFAIRS,
IVashington, D. C., July 28, 1874.
S~a: You are directed to purchase an odometer at the lowest attainable price and
ship the same by express, as soon as possible, to S. H. Palmer, esq., store-keeper of Indian supplies at Cheyenne, Wyo., and advise him of the shipment.
Rave the bill for sanie sent to this office for payment.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
EDW. P. SMITH,
Contniissionei-.
L.S. H~vnEN, Esq.,
42 Lconard ~trcet, ~re?v Yoi~k City.
Commissioner Smith to S. H. Palmei~.
DEPARTMENT OF THF INTERIOR,
OFFICE OF INDIAN AFFAIRS,
TVashington, B. C., Jnly 28, 1874.
5~i~: 1 am in receilt of your letter of the 23d ins+ant, stating that there is no odomete to be procured at Ch'~yenne, but that one can probably be obtained at Omaha, 
787
and suggesting that Agent Saville be directed to take the measurement of tbe:distance
from Cheyenne to the present Red Cloud agency either by attaching an odometer to
bis ambulance. or with a chain.
In reply I have to state that steps have been taken to have an odometer purchased
and shipped to you at Cheyenne.  It is desired that the actual distance traveled by
tlie trains transporting freight to the Red Cloud agency shall be obtained. This, it is
believed, can better be done by attaching the odometer to one of the wagons belong.
lug to a train than by attachiiig it to an ambulance which may not travel the exact
route taken by the trains.
You will, therefore, on receipt~f the odometer, please comply with office instructions
of the 16th.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
EDW. P. SMITH,
Cornm~ss~on er.
S.H. PALMER, Esq.,
Stoi~e-keepei' of Indian S~~phes, Cheyenne, Thyo.
S. H. Palmer to Commissioner Smith.
CHEYENNE, ~VYo., August 28, 1874.
Sia: I have the honor to report to you that I attached the odometer as directed to
the first train that loaded and started for Red Cloud, from this place, which was on
the 171 h day of this month.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant
S. H. PALMER,
Hon. E. P. SMITH,                                   Government Stoie-keeper.
Commissioner of hidica Affairs, JJ~shington, D. C.
S. H. Palnier to Commissioner Smith.
CHEYENNE, Wvo., Sep tern ber 11, 1874.
SI~: I have the honor to inform you that John Compton, the wagon-master in whose
care Dr. J. J. Saville, of Red Cloud, Dak., placed the odometer, in order to get the distance from that place to Cheyenne, has this day returned the same to me, stating that
it got out of order, and he could not tell anything about th9 distance.  The odometer
will not indicate but tliirty.oiie miles.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant
S. H. PALMER,
G over a men t Store-keeper.
Hon. E. P. SMITH,
Commissioner of h~diait Affaii~s, Washington, D. C.
Agent Saville to Comniissioner Smith.
RED CLOUD A~~~c~, November 9, 1874.
S~~: I have the honor, respectf~lly, to transmit certificate of distance from Cheyenne
to Red Cloud agency, in compliance with instructions from Department of Indian
Affairs dated July 16, 1874.  There has been some delay in the measurement, for the
reason that the first time the new odometer came thron~h I was not satisfied with the
indications, thinkin                         too
that it made the distance    great, and therefore ordered it
placed on another wheel and sent it through again.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. J. SAVILLE,
United States Indian Agent.
Hon. E. P. SMITH,
Co a mission o of India a Affa i?~8.
Certificate.
RED CLOUD A~~~cv, Noveniber 9,1874.
I certify on honor that, in compliance with instn~ctions from the Department of
Indian Affairs, an odometer, sealed and placed on a wagon-wheel at Cheyenne, the 
788
wagon traveling the usual route traveled by freight-trains from Cheyenne to Red
Cloud agency, was received and opened by me November 7, 1874, and the odometer
indicated ninety-two thousand one hundred and twenty revolutions of the wheel
that the wheel measured thirteen feet in circumference, iudicating a distance of two
bundred and twenty-six and eighty-one hundredths miles.
J. J. SAVILLE,
United States Indian Agent.
Coma isilo ncr Smith to Secretary Bela a 0.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,
OFFICE OF INDIAN AFFAIRS,
Washington, D. C., November 20, 1874.
SIR:I bav~ the honor to state, for your intormation, that this Office in order to
deteimine the actual distance traveled by freight-trains engaged in carrying Indian
oods and supplies from Cheyenne, ~Vyoming, to the Red Cloud agency, Dakota, purchased and placed in the hands of Agent Savilie an odometer, with instructions, dated
July 16, 1874, to both the agent and S. H. Palmer, Government store-keeper for Red
Cloud agency, regarding the proper method to be observed in using the same.
This Office is now in receipt of a communication from Agent Saville, (copy herewith,)
dated the 9th instant, inclosing his certificate, to the effect that the distance, as shown
by the odometer opened by him on the 7th instant, is 226.81 miles.
In Yiew of the fact that the distance, as given in said certificate, is greater than any
estimate heretofore made, I have to recommend, in order that the question may be settled beyond a doubt, that the ~~ar Department be requested to take immediate steps
to have the distance between the two points nanied measured by an odometer, care
being taken to have the route measured the same as that actually traveled by the
freight-teams engaged in hauling goods under the McCann contract.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
EDW. P. SMITH,
Contatission e,'.
T~e honorable SEClILTARY OF TIlE INTERIOR.
Secretary Belknap to Secreta)V Bela no.
WAR DEPARTMENT,
Washington &ty, January 6, 1875.
SIR:Referring to your letter of the 21st November last, requesting that the distance
between Cheyenne and the Red Cloud agency be measured, under direction of this
Department, by an odometer, over the route actually traveled by teams employed in
transporting goods under contract with Mr. D. J. McCann, I have ilie honor to inform
you that a dispatch has just been received from General E. 0. C. Ord, dated Omaha,
Nebraska, December 29,1874, as follows
"Lieutenant Winters, detailed under the Secretary's orders to measure Indian contractor's route from Cheyenne to Red Cloud agency, reports`That agent at Cheyenne of
McCann has as yet failed to procure an employd who is familiar with the route to
accompany him.-'VixrERS."'
Very respectfully, your obedient servant
WM. W. BELKNAP,
Seci~etary oj iVar.
The hono~able the SECRETAIlY OF TIlE INTERIOR.
Actii~g Couiniissioiiei Cliint to B. J. AteCaija.
DEPAItT~lENT OF TIlE INTERIOR,
OFFICE OF INDIAN AFFAIlIS,
Washington, D. C., Jaunary 11, 1875.
SI~:i~or your information I in close herewith copy of letter from the War Department, dated the 6th instant, addressed to the Hon. Secretary of the Interior, relative
to the distance between Cheyenne, Wyoming, and the Red Cloud agency, Dakota, and
have to ndvise you that a guide familiar with the route to be measured will have to be 
789
furnished by yoursoif, so soon as practicable, in order that tise detail referred to in the
letter of the War Department may not be delayed.
Yery respectfully, your obedient servant
H. R. CLUM,
D. J. McCANN, City.                                      Acting Commissioner.
INTERRUPTION OF SURVEY-SEVERITY OF THE WEATHER.
Secretary Belkoar to Secretary Delano.
WAR DEPARTMENT,
Washington City, January 19, 1875.
Si~: I have the honor to transmit, for your information, copy of telegram from the
headquarters of the Army, stating that Lieutenant Winter, the officer detailed to
measure the Indian contractor's route from Cheyenne to Red Cloud agency, had been
driven in, &c., and requesting that movements of troops during the winter be made
conditional on the state of the weather.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant
WM. W. BELKNAP,
Scc;~etary of War.
The honorable the SECRETART OF THE INTERIOR.
[Telegram dated Saint Louis, January 12, 1575. Peceived Jan nary 12, 1575.]
To ADJL-TANT-GENERM U. S. A., Washington, B. C.:
The following dispatch just received from General Ord:
"Colonel Bradley telegraphed from Fort Laramie, January 8 all quiet at agencies;
twenty-seven degrees below zero. Lieutenant Winters telegraphs from Fort Laramie,
January 10, that he has been driven in by the seve~ty of the weather, after getting
as far as old Red Cloud agency; that snow is drifted very badly, and thermometer
ranges from twenty to forty below zero in the day-time.
"I think it probable that Captain Henry's company, now in pnrsuit of miners in the
Black Hills, will suffer severely from the weather, and will lose a number of horses.
"I request that any directions given during the winter to move troops into the
Black Hills may be made conditional on the state of the weather, such movements up
to April next being extremely hazardous.
"E. 0. C. ORD,
Brigadier- Genera 1."
WM. D. WHWPLE, A. A. U.
WAR DEPARTMENT
ADJUTANT-GENERAL'S OFFICE,
Washington, January 13, 1875.
Official copy.
E. D. TOWNSEND,
To the honorable the SECRETARY OF TIlE INTERIOR.            Adjutant-General.
Seo'eta;V Belki~ap to Secretary Delano.
WAR DEPARTMENT,
Wash in gto~t City, February 6, 1875.
S~~: I have the honor to in close, for your information, copy of report of Second Lieutenant J. H. Winters, Twenty-third Infantry, dated the 16th iiltimo, of result of his
measurement of the road from Cheyenne, W. T., to the old Red Cloud agency.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant
WM. W. BELKNAP
Secretary of IjThar.
The honorable the SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR. 
790
L en ten ant r~inters' report.
FORT LARAMIE, WTO~1 ING TERRITORY
January 16, 1874.
SIR:I have the honor to make the following report:
In compliance with paragraph 2, Special Order No. 185, current series, dated Headquarters Department of the Platte, Omaha, Neb., December 17, 1874 I started from
Fort D. A. Russell, W. T., December 31, with a party consisting of the post-guide, one
sergeant and nine privates of Company D, Twenty-third Infantry, with twelve days'
rations. The Quartermaster's Department furnished one spring-wagon and two armywagons, with ten days' forage. One odometer was attached to the spring-wagon and
one to an army-wagon. I left Cheyenne December 31, 1874, and proceeded a distance
of sixty-two miles (Hawk Springs) before being seriously interfered with by the
weather, although there were several light snows, which undoubtedly interfered with
the correctness of measurement to a certain extent.
On account of the severity of the weather I was compelled to lie over at Hawk
Springs three days. The weather being moderated, I attempted to go on with the
measurement, and proceeded as far as old Red Cloud agency, a distance of eightyseven miles from Cheyenne; but the weather became so severe and the snow drifted so
badly, that I consider the measurement valueless as a correct one, and, on account of the
high winds drifting the snow, nothing but the general direction of the road for the last
twenty miles conid be obtained. Being i~iformed at old Red Cloud Agency that it
would be almost impossible to reach Red Cloud agency on account of the snow, I was
compelled to come to this post for rations, where I have since been assigned to duty.
It is my opinion that it will be six weeks or two months before the measurement can
be resumed, as the weather is still severe, with more or less snow every day; and the
route to be measure4 being rarely traveled during the winter, the snow and snow-drifts
will remain a long time.
When the measurement is resumed it should be recommenced from Cheyenne.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,       J. H. WINTERS,
Second Lieutenant, Twenty-third Infa a
AsS~S~~NT ADJUTANT- GENERAL,
1)epartn~cnt of the I~lattc, Omaha, ~Thbr.
[Indorsernent.]
HEADQUARTERS DEPARTMENT op TIlE PLATTE,
Omaha, ~Thebr., January 25, 1875.
Respectfully forwarded through Headquarters ~Iilitary Division of the ~Iissouri to
the Adjutant General I~. S. A. The measurement of the ronte between Cheyenne and
Red Cloud agency will, on account of the weather, be deferred necessarily for six
weeks or two mouths.
E.0. C. ORD,
Brigadier- General, Cornrnai'ding.
~~AR DEPARTMENT, ADJUTANT GENERAL'S OFFICE,
lVashington, February 3, 1875.
Oilicial copy.
E. D. TOWNSEND,
A Oja taut General.
The honorable the SECRETARY OF TEE L~TERIOR.
EVIDENCE AS TO DISTANCE.
Affidavit of Bichard Dunn and others.
Personally a~peared before me, a notary public in and for Laramie County, Territory
of Wyoming, Richard Dunn, of Cheyenne, Wyo., who, being duly sworn, deposes and
says that he has been engaged in the transportation of Indian goods and supplies from
Cheyenne to the Red Cloud Indian agency, in Nebraska, du~ng a period of fourteen
months, from July, A. D. 1~74, to the present time, and that during that time his train
has traveled the route known as the "Eastern road," via old Red Cloud agency, thence
down the Platte River sixteen miles, thence to the Red Cloud agency; that the distance thus traveled is as follows: From Cheyenne to the old Red Cloud agency, one 
791
hundred miles; down the Platte, sixteen miles from the Platte to tlie Rcd Cloud
agency, eighty miles-making the distance from Cheyenne to Red Cloud agency one
hnndred and ninety-six miles by the Eastern road; that he has also traveled the road
via Red Cloud agency (old agency) and Fort Laramie, thence via White River to Red
Cloud a~ency; that this route was the one traveled during the period of high water
in the Platte, which is generally from March till August; that the distance from
Cheyenne to Red Cloud agency via this route is as follows: From Cheyenne to old Red
Clo~id agency, one hnndred miles; from old Red Cloud agency to Fort Laramie, forty
miles; from Fort Laramie to Red Cloud agency, eighty-six miles by th~ route actually
traveled by cattle trains-making the distance froin Cheyenne to Red Cloud agency
via this route two hundred and twenty-six miles. Deponent further states that he has
seen a report of a statement made by him to the commission of which Hon. Thomas
C. Fletcher was chairman, to the effect that he stated the distance from Cheyenne to
Red Cloud agcncy to be one hundred and eighty miles. Deponent says that he`did
state the distance to be one hundred and eighty miles or one hundred and eight-five
miles, but he distinctly stated said distance to be by the mail route, directly north from
tiie old Red Cloud agency, and that he then st:~ted that no freight traveled said route
Deponent states that he never traveled. said route while engaged iii freighting for D
J. McCann.
RICHARD DIJNN.
Andrew Shep:~rd, Si,neon B. Kerns, and Charles Mansfidd, all residents of Laramie
County, W'yo., being dnly sworn accordii~g to law, depose and say that they are employ6s of Richard Dunn, the foregoing affiant; that they have read the foregoing
affidavit of said Richard Dii~~n, and that they know of their personal knowledge that
the statements made by sai~l Richard Daun iii said affidavit are trio.
ANDREW SHEPARD.
SI~lEON B. KERNS.
ClIARLES MANSFIELD.
Signatures witnessed by nic     L.C. STEVENS.
TEnPITOEY OF Wvo~i~~~,
Coonty of Larnetie, 85
I, L. C. Stevens, a notary public in and for said county iii the Territory afi~resaid, do
hereby cei~tif\ that Richard Dunn, personally knowii to me to be the identical person
described in the foregoing affidavit subscribed by him, appeared before me this d~y in
person, and subscribed the same iu my presence, and, being dnly sworn according to
law, made oath that the statements therein contained were true. I do further certify
that Andrew Shepard, S~meon B. Kerns, and Charles Mansfield, personally knowu to
me to be the identical persons described in the foregoing affidavit subscribed by them,
appeared before me this day in person, and, being duly sworn according to law, made
oath that the statements thereiii coiitaiiied were true.
Given under my hand and notarial seal this second day of September, A. D. 1575.
[SEAL.]                                              L. C. STEVENS,
~~tary P~~b1ic.
TEERITOEY OF WvO~IING,
G~eety of La~~aetie, 88:
I, George B. Stimpson, clerk of the county within and for the county and Territory
aforesaid, do hereby certify that L. C. Stevens, whose name is subscribed to the foregoing instrument and certificate of acknowledgment, is, and was at tlie tinie of so
doing, a duly commissioned and qualified notary public within and for the county and
Territory aforesaid; that all his official acts as such are eiititled to fi~ll faith and
credit; that said attestation is in due form of law, and that his signature thereto is
genuine.
Witness niy hand aiid the seal of said county hereto affixed, at my office, iii the city
of Cheyenne, this 3d day of Septeniber, A. D. 1575.
[SEAL.]                                    GEO. B. STIMPSON,
Clerk of 8aic~ Con ely, er-officio Rej(ister of Deeds.
Affidei'it of J. Vigil ai~il j. U. L~sqiiez.
COUNTY OF LAEAMIE,
Tei'i'itoiy of II)! ernie g, Augest 27, 1575q
Personally appeared before me, a notary public in and for the county aforesaid, thi 5
27th day of August, A. D. 1S75, Juan Vigil and Joseph U. Basqnez, both of Cheyenne, 
792
`~u the Territory of ~Vyoming, who, being duly sworn, depose and say that they have
been engaged in freighting between Cheyenne and the Red Clond Indian agency in
Nebraska for the period of three years last past, and are well acquainted with the different routes traveled by loaded trains engaged in the transportation of Indian goods
and supplies between the points above named. The ronte traveled by trains engaged in
said transportation, during the period of low water in the Platte River, is by the old Red
Cloud agency, crossing the river at that point, and thence down the north bank of the
~latte sixteen to eighteen miles, thence north to the agency by what is known as the
lower, or eastern road. The distance from Cheyenne to the Red Cloud agency, as actually traveled by loaded trains by this route, is two hundred and ten to two hnndred
and fifteen miles. The route traveled by loaded trains dnring the period of high water
in the Platte River, which, the present season, has been from March 1 to August 1, is
by the eastern road to the old Red Cloud agency, theiice to Fort Laramie, where the
river is crossed by a ferry, thence to the Red Cloud agency, aiid the distance necessarily
traveled by this route by said trains is two hundred and fifteen miles. The time
occupied in making the trip from Cheyenne to the Red Cloud agency by either route
is fifteen to sixteen days, depending upon the weather and the condition of the roads.
The average distance traveled by a loaded train each day is fifteen milcs, or one hundred miles per week.
JUAN VIJIL.
JOSEPH U. BASQUEZ.
Subscribed and sworn to before mc this 27th day of August, A. D. 1875.
[SEAL.]                                                  E. SPARKS,
~~tary Public.
TERRIToRY OF WY0MIN(~,
County of Laran~ie, 58:
I, Gco. B. Stimpson, clerk of the county within and for the county and Territory
aforesaid, do hereby certify that E. Sparks, whose name is subscribed to the fore~oin
instrument and certificate, is, and was at the time of so doing, duly commissioned and
qualified notary public within and for the county and Territory aforesaid, that all his
official acts as such are entitled to full faith and credit, that said attestation is in due
form of law, and that his signature thereto is genuine.
~~itness my hand and the seal of said county hereto afflxcd at my office in the city
of Cheyenne, this 8th day of September, A. D. 1875.
[SEAL.]                                         GEO. B. STIMPSON,
Clerk of said County, er-officio P~egister of Deeds.
THE APPLETON BUILDING CONTRACT.
Agent Sari lie to Cousmissioner Sn~iIh.
CIlEvENNE, August 17,1874.
Sin: I have the honor herewith to transmit a proposition of A. R. Appleton, to saw
the lumber and the shingles, and complete the agency buildings now in course of
erection, and build a slaughter-house and issuing-corral.  This proposition is very
reasonable and lower than I can have the same work done by en~ployiug men by the
month. It will also hasten the work, which is very desirable, as it is getting late in
the season and we are likely to be again overtaken by winter.
I think it an advantage to the Government to preserve beef by freezing, and I wish
to do it this fall. In order to do this it will be necessary to have a slaughter-house. I
therefore respectfully request permission to make a contract with Mr. Appleton for the
above work on the basis of his proposition.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant
J.J. SAYILLE,
United States Indian Ageut.
lIon. E. P. SMITh,
Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
A. P. AJ)pThtolt to Agent Sarille.
CHEYENNE, WYo., August 17.
DEAR Sin: In closed please find proposition for the completion of your work, already
commenced, and the erection of such new ones as you need, together with the sawing
of luu~ber, the making and laying of shingles, &c., &c. 
793
In making my estimate and affixing prices therefor, I believe my prices will reduce
the cost to Government very much in this, that I can sub-let a portion of it, and give
piece-work to others, and then if they are disposed to work twelve or fourteen hours
per day in order to make large wages, it is their own affair and not yours. I think it
can be handled in this way by me mu cli more economically than it would be possible
for you to do the same work by the day or week and by giving out piece-work, and
inducing carpenters to work as many hours as possible, I cnii con~plete all the buildings before winter sets in.
Yours, &c.,
A. R. APPLETON.
Dr. J. J. SAVILLE,
i?ed CThnd Agency, Dak.
API~LETON'S PROPOSHION.
Dr. J. J. SAVILLE,
United ~tates Indian Agent, i?ed Cloud Agency, D. I.:
Si~: I propose to handle the logs furnished. and saw the lumber required to finish
and build the buildings you need, for $14 per thousand feet.
I also propose to saw the shingles and lay the same subject to your directions, you
furnishing the necessary nails therefor, for $10 per thousand shingles, measured on the
roof.
The above propositions based upon your furnishing me the use of your saw-mill,
shingle-machine, and cutting-off saw, with the engineer to run and keep the same in
order, and subject to my orders, and your approval.
I further propose to build (you furnishing material) a slaughter-house 20 by 28 feet
square, 12-foot story; said building to be planked up and down or perpendicular, with
2-inch plank, battened over joint, 2-inch floor-planks, with two drainage-gutters, also
two slidi'~g runs for hanging beeves upon, two sets of hoisting-machinery, with doors,
scuttles, windows, &c., necessary to make it a complete slaughter-house, all complete
for the fi~rther sum of $450.
I also propose to build a cattle-corral in connection with said slaughter-house 100
by 200 feet, 7 feet high, posts 7 feet apart, two girt, and boarded up and down, edge to
edge, with a division in the center; also, to take up and reset the cattle-scales, and
build a small house over the balance or weighing part of them for the weigher; also,
a slaughter-pen, 30 by 30 feet square, 10 feet high, 2-inch plank, edge to edge; said
corral and slaughter-pen to have a plank protection 2 by 12 inches, thoroughly spiked
all around upon the posts, on the inside 21 feet from the ground, all of which I propose
to do for the additional sum of $384.
I also propose that I will finish your unfinished buildings, ceilings, casings, battening, weather-boarding, &c., as originally designed to make them comlortable-by the
day-at $3.25 per day.
Yours, &c.,
A. R. APPLETON.
Acting Commissioner Clunt to Agent Sari lie.
DEPARTMENT OF TIlE INTERIOR,
O~~~c~ OF INDIAN AFFAIRS,
Washington, D. C., August 25, 1874.
S~~: I am in receipt of your letter of the 17th instant, submitting proposition of A.
R. Appleton, to saw the lumber and shingles, and complete the agency buildings now
in course of erection at your agency; also, to build a slaughter-house and corral; and
in accordance with your recommendation, authority is hereby granted you to contract
with Mr. Appleton on the terms proposed by him, for the work therein named, submitting said contract, upon its execution, for the approval of the Department.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
II.R. CLUM,
Acti'ig Coatmissioner.
J. J. SAVILLE, Esq.,
United States htdian Agent, Red Cloud Agency, D. T.
Agent Sari lie to Commissioner Smilli.
RED CLOUD A~~~cv, Octobe'- 5,1874.
SI~: I have the honor herewith to transmit a contract and bond entered into with
A. I? Appleton for sawing lumber and shingles, finishing the agency buildings, and build 
794
ing a slaughter-house and issuing corral, in accordance with proposition submitted by
him August 17, 1874.  On arrival at the agency and commencing the work, Mr. Appleton found that he could do the sawing and shingle-maLing cheaper than he had estimated, and therefore put the price of sawing to $1~, and of making and laying the
shingles to $8 per thousand.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. J. SAVILLE,
Uuitcd States Indian Agent.
lion. E. P. S~i~ir,
Contntissioner of Indian Affai;~s.
TIlE CONTRACT.
Articles of ngreemenf', made and entered into this 30th day of September, A. D. cight~
eeu hundred and seventy-four, by and between J. J. Saville, United States Indian
ngent, for and on behalf of the United States of America, of the first part, and A. P.
Appleton, of Sioux City, Iowa, of the second part, witnesseth:
That the said party of the second part agrees to handle the logs furnished and saw
the lumber required to finish and build the buildings needed at the agency for ($12)
twelve dollai-s per thousand feet; further, to saw the shingles and lay the san)e, the
nails therefor being furnished for ($5) eight dollars per thousand, shingles measured on
the roof.
It is firther agreed that the nse of the saw-mill, shingle-machine, and cutfing-off
saw, and the services of the engineer to run and keep the same ia order, be furnished
the party of the second part for the purposes herein mentioned.
The said party of the second part further agrees to build, material being furnished,
a slaughter-house 20 x 25 feet, 12~foot story; said building to be pianked up and down
with 2-inch plank, battened over the joints, the floor to consist of 24nch plank, with
two drainage-gutters.
Also two sliding runs for hanging beeves upon, two sets hoisting-machinery, with
doors, scuttles, windows, &c., necessary to make it a complete slaughter-house.
Also to build a cattle-corral in connection with said slaughter-house 100 X 200 feet,
posts 7 feet high and 7 feet apart, with two girths, boarded up and down edge to edge,
with a division in the center; also to take up and reset the cattle-scales, and build a
small house over the balance or weighing part of said scale.            -
Also a slaughter-pen 30 x 30 feet, 10 feet high, 2-inch plank, edge to edge; said corral
and slaughter-pen to have a plank protection 2 by 12 inches, thoroughly spiked all
around upon the posts on the inside 2~ feet from the ground.  Tl~e necessary shoots
and gates for driving cattle in and out are included in this contract.  The sum of $834
to be paid for the building of said slaughter-house, corral, &c.
Said party of the second part further agrees to complete the unfinished buildings,
such as ceilings, casings, battening, and weather-boarding-, as originally designed, for
the sum of ($3.25) three ~~~~ dollars per day.
In consideration of the faithful performance of this agreement on fire part of the
party of the second part, the said party of the first part agrees to pay or cause to be
paid to the said party of the second part, his heirs, executors or adurinistrators, for all
work performed under this contract, the sums of money as hereinbetore mentione~d.
It is, however, further agreed, that before the United States shall be bound by this
contract, a bond in the sum of five thousand dollars ($5,000) shall be executed by the
said party of the second part, with two or more good arid suiheicut sureties, said bond
to be conditioned f~~r the faithful performance of this contract in all its particulars by
the said party of the second part.
In witness whereof the parties have hereunto set fireir hands and seals the day and
year above written.
J.J. SAVILLE,
United States Indian Agcr~t.
A.P. APPLETON.
Signed in presence of     JA~IES POIrERTS.
Know all men by these presents that we, A. P. Appleton, of Sioux City, Iowa, and
J. ~~. Dear, and A. F. Curtis, of Red Cloud agency, as sureties, are held and firmly
bound unto the United States of America in the sum of five thousand ($5,000) dollars,
lawful money of the said United States, for which payment well and truly to be made,
we hereby bind ourselves and each of us, our heirs, executors, and administrators, jointly
and severally, firmly by these presents. 
795
Ti~e condition of this obligation is such, that if the above-bounden A. R. Appleton,
his heirs, executors, or administrators, or ally of then', shaji observe, perform, and fulBli, all and singular, the covenants and agreements mentioned and contained in a certain contract of even date herewith between the United States, by J. J. Saville, United
States Indian agent, and the said A. R. Appleton, then and in that case this obligation
shall be null and void; otherwise to remain in full force and virtue.
Ii) testimony whereof we have hereunto set our hands and seals this 30th day of September, A. D. 1874.
A.R. APPLETON.
J.W. DEAR.
A.F. CURTIS.
In presence of     JAMES ROBERTS.
A. r~. Appleton to Ifl8pectOi Bevier.
RED CLOUD AGENCY, Octobe; 5, 1874.
DEAR Sin: Since you left I have cou~idered your suggestions with reference to the
price I was to receive for the work done here; although the amount of work perfornied per day is not as great as we expected or calculated upon, but sufficientl~ great
for me to conform in some degree to your wishes. The reduction, as you will see by
examining the contract, will amount to about $500.
lloping this will he satisfactory, I am, yours, respectfully,
A.R. APPLETON.
Dr. J. D. BEvIER,
&raad iZapids, Micli.
P. S.-Please write me.
Inspector Becier to Conirnissioner Satith.
~VA5HINGTON, D. C., Octobcr 21, 1874.
S~~: Iii closed I have the honor to forward a contract for your approval, entered into
between Agent Savilie of the Red Cloud agency and Mr. A. R. Appleton.
On the occasion of my recent visit to this agency I found Mr. Appleton engaged in
manufacturing lumber, roofing the buildings, &c., and upon inquiry Agent Saville informed me that the contract had not heen executed; that he had neglected it from day
to day, but that the matter was all perfectly understood between hiniseli, Mr. Appletoo, and fl~e Department; that Mr. Appleton had submitted to him in wnting his propositions, which he had forwarded to your Office,. asking permission to close a contract
~pon the terms therein stated, and that the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs
had replied giving him such permission with instructions to fbrward tlie contract to
his Office for approval.
I asked to see the corrcspondence which I found as above stated.
Upon visiting the uiill I first ascertained that all the men engaged in the making of
lumber were Government employcs up to the 19th September, the day I was expecte~1
there, as I had written Agent Saville I would be in Cheyenne the 14th, which would
make me due at Red Cloud on or soon after the 19th.
I next ascertained that Mr. Matthews, who is carried on the rolls as ellgineer, had
been, was, and would continue to do all the sawing; Mr. Appleton having in his
employ in lieu of Mathews the engineer, the fireman, a clleap laborer, who does the
work of fireman and engineer.
The agency-teams and agency-teamsters were engagcd in picking up the shingles
and lumber, and carting them when needed.
I found upon examining a Mr. Bn reh, an intelligent carpenter, in the presence of
Agent Saville, that the custom in that country, an&1 in Colorado aiid ~Vyoming Territories, where Mr. Bnrch had fi~r some years been engaged in making lumber, was $4
or thousand, the mill and logs being furnished, without the engineer or aiiy other
ci p; the men being boarded by the nilil-owner, as Mr. Appleton's are and that when
tlie engineer was furnished, as in this case, the price per thousand should be correspondingly less.
Mr. Appleton's price is $14 per thousand. As to the cutting and the laying of the
shingles, Mr. Burch, Mr. Thompson,, and Mr., all carpenters, who also made their
statement in the presence of Agent Saville, say it is worth $1.50 per thousand for laying shingles, and from 50 to 75 cents for cutting them, thus making the total cost for
cutting and laying between two and three dollars per thousand. Mr. Appleton's price,
$10 per thousand.
The slaughter-house and pen Mr. Appleton has sublet to this same Mr. Burch for
$180. Mr. Appleton's price for slaughter-house abut', without tlio pen, is $4.50. (See
his original propositions.) 
776
Some of those carpenters told me they were anxious to get the above work at the
prices they named, and were watching for the opportunity, when to their surprise and
disappointment they learned it was privately let to Mr. A.
I then stated to Agent Savil]e that I should oppose the contract, for the reason that
the prices were exorbitant, and that the Commissioner's consent to the same had been
obtained through misrepresentation, (see Agent Saville's letter accompanying Mr.
A.'s proposition,) and among other things said to him, "You board Mr. Appleton's
men," &c. He said, "No." I told Mr. A. he must pay me for the board of his men.
His manner convinced me that such was not true, and thereupon I called la Mr. A.,
and in the presence of Agent Saville, and without giving them any time for conference or consultation, said to Mr. A., "Dr. Saville boards your men?" "Yes," says he,
"I told the doctor he must ration my men," &c., &c. They plead with me not to interrupt the contract, assigning, or trying to assign, various reasons in support of their
terms. As it was growing late I suggested we would sleep upon it and wonld see them
in the morning. In the morning, feeling unwilling to stop all the work then in progress, I told Mr. Appleton if he would alter his terms and put them down to something near reasonable, and write a contract accordingly and forward t() me, I would
carry it to Washington and would not oppose it. He said he did not like to alter his
terms; it would look as though he originally designed to drive a sharp bargain with
the Government, and if I would consent to let it remain he would share with me the
profits, &c. I replied, saying that he might change his terms without unnecessarily
reflecting upon his good faith, and assign as a reason that, after getting on the ground
and learning mor~ as to the facilities at hand, he could see his way out at lower
rates, &c.
I left that morning for Cheyenne. On my arrival tbere, I wrote Dr. Saville the following letter:
"CIIEYi~NNE, W. T., October 5, 1874.
"Sin: Should Mr. Appleton conclude to discontinue his work on account of the uncertainty of getting a contract, in that case you will make no settlement with him
until such time and in such manner as the honorable Coiiiinissioner of Indian Affairs
may direct.
"You will continue the contract for ddivering logs, and the contract with Burch
to complete the slaughter-house and pen, and pay him the price agreed upon, viz, $1~O,
less what Mr. Appleton may have paid him.
"You will continue the manufacturing of lumber and shingles; the roofing of the
buildings; the building of the corral, and moving and resetting the scales; and select
some good man to superintend the work, and employ such temporary help as may be
necessary to carry it on. Mr. Appleton will be re-imbursed for any mouey paid his
hands, and a just and fair compensation allowed him for his tinie and services.
"J. J. SAVILLE, etc."                                "J. D. BEVIER, etc.
Mr Appleton, according to promise, has forwarded to me his contract slightly modified, and I, according to promise, forward it to you. While the prices for sawing lumber, and making and laying shingles, building slaughter-house and pen and corral,
resetting scales, &c., may be four times what it should be, yet there are bounds and
limits to those items. The last proposition I regard as most objectionable, which perpetuates his stay interminable.
Very respectfolly, your obedient servant,
J.D. BEVIER,
Unitcd States Indiasi Inspector.
Hon. IS. P. S~IITll,
Conimissionci of hidian Affairs, Washington, I). C.
Cornniissionei Smith to Bishop flare.
Dn~~nr~~~~ OF TllE INTERIOR, OFFic~ OF INDIAN AFFAIRs
Washington, B. C., Octo~er 22, 1874.
SIR: I inclose herewith, for your information, a contract made by Agent Saville
with A. R. Appleton for the performance of certain work at the Red Cloud agency,
together with a communication from Inspector Bevier relative thereto.
Please return all the papers at the earliest opportunity; and I will thank you if, at
vour convenience, you will submit to this Office your views respecting the matter.
Very respeetfolly, your obedient servant,
EDW. P. SMITH,
Commissioner.
ISt. Rev. W~r H H4RE
30 Bibie-Honse, ~~ir Yo;* City. 
797
Bi8hop Hai'e to Comrni~~tone~' Satith.
NEW YO~K, October 26, 1874.
Si~: I return herewith a contract made by Agent Saville with A. R. Appleton, together with a communication from Inspector Bevier.
I am not competent to judge of the fairness of the contract, but the whole affair, if
justly stated by the inspector, is discreditable to the agent, and I think that he should
he called upon to explain it.
it should be remembered, however, that the inspector may have a personal reason
for desiring to make the agent smart. To refer to another ia~tter, if the proposal to
raise the United States flag was the occasion of the attack described in the telegrani
which appeared in the morning's papers, it was a gratuitous provocation of the Indians
by Agent Saville, which shows great lack of common sense.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
WILLIAM H. HARE,
By C. H. SMITH.
Hon. E. P. SMIIll,
Comniissioner of Iadiait Affairs, Tflashington, I). C.
Cornniissione~ Smith to Agent Sari lie.
L)KPARTMENT OF TllE INTERIOR, OFFICE OF INDIAN Al~FAIRs,
!Vashington, B. C., October 29, 1874.
S~~: I acknowledge the receipt of your communication of the 5th instant, inclosing,
for thc action of the Department, articles of agreement entered into by you with A. R.
Appleton for sawing lumber and shingles, finishing the agency-buildings, and for the
coi~struction of a slaughter-house and ~ssuing-corral at the Red Cloud agency.
In reply, I have to advise you that the contract is disapproved. You are directed
to pay the subcontractors the several amounts due them for services rendered under
the agreement with Mr. Appleton, said accounts to be sworn to as to correctness, &c.,
prior to settlenient. All other persons employed by you to carry on the work will be
paid a per dieni for labor actually performed, the prices to be reasonable and the time
sworn to, as set forth above.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant
EDW. P. SMITh,
Co mmi ssioa e?'.
J.J. SAviLLE,
United States Indian Agent, Ited Clond Agency, Dakota 1'errito?V.
Agent Se rille to Coaim issio)?er S?)? itli.
RED CLOUD AGENCY, D. T.,
~~rernbe~ 12,1874.
Si~: I am ill receipt of your communication of October 29, disapproving the contract with A. R. Appleton, and directing me "to pay the subcontractors the several
ainouiits due them for services rendered under their agreements with Mr. Appleton,
said accounts to be sworn to as to correctness, &c., prior to settlements. All other
persons employed by you (me) to carry on the work will be paid a per diem for labor
actually performed, the prices to be reasonable and the time sworn to, as set forth
above."
In reply I would respectfi~lly state that, prior to the reception of your letter, the
only subcontractor, Mr. Birch, who undertook to partly build the slaughter-hous~ had
finished his work and Mr. Appleton had settled with him.
All men employed to carry on the work were employed by Mr. Appleton and paid
by him. Ou reception of your letter, on the 6th instant, the work was suspended.
Mr. Appleton settled with his men, and the most of them left for Cheyenne. It is
therefore impossible for me to comply with the letter of your instructions, as Mr. Appleton is the only party present that I know in the business.
In explanation, I would respectfully state, that the unfinished condition of the agencybuildings was a source of enibau~ssments to me, as well as iii souie respects a loss to
the Government. On August 17, l~7 4, I forwarded to your Olh~ce a proposition by A.
H. Appleton, a competent builder, to finish these buildings. This proposition I then
consi~lered, as I do now, reasonable and advantageous to the Government. In accordance wilh your letter of aliproval of August 25, 18j4, I notified Mr. Appleton to cmii 
798
mence the work, as it was necessary to push the work in order to get it done before
winter set in, after the work had been commenced, but before the contract was written.
Inspector Bevier visited the agency, and objected to some of the prices of work in Mr.
Appleton's proposition, and suggested to me to have Mr. Appleton modify his proposition. I informed him that I had already passed my judgment upon the propositions;
that I considered them reasonable; that I had in good faith entered into the agreement,
and therefore would not ask Mr. Appleton to n'odif~y his proposition, but if he chose
to suspend the work to do so, and I was willing it should be referred to the Department.  I also stated to him that if he could come to an understanding with Mr. Apple.
ton to modify his proposition it would be satisfactory to me. Mr. Appleton did make
such modification as stated in my letter of transmittal accompanying the contract,
and I understood that it was satisfactory to Mr. Bevier, and at the suggestion of Inspector Bevier sent the contract through him.
If this contract is not satisfactory to the Department, and I have committed an error
in making it, I am willing in any honorable way to correct the error, but the implication, possibly unintentionally conveyed in the letter of the honorable Commissioner of
Indian Affairs, that there is in it other than the most open and fair dealing, I most
respectfully, but most positively, repudiate.
The work under the contract was being rapidly pushed forward, and two weeks
more would have completed it. By this suspension the slaughter-house and corral
remain unfinished and a part of the barn unshingled; also, 480 logs, measuring 42,976
feet lumber, unsawed.
I herewith inclose Mr. Appleton's statement of the work done, and respectfully
request further inetructions relative thereto.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. J. SAVILLE
United States Indian A' gent.
lion. E. P. SMITH,
Cornntissioncr Indian Affairs.
Aj~pleto~~'s staterneizt.
RED CLOUD AGENCY, P. T.,
~Thovernbe,' 10, 1874.
The Unitcd States to A. B. Aj~pleton.
To sawing 62,060 feet lumber, at $12 per M                           $744 72
To making and laying 121,401 shingles, at $8 per M                    971 20
To making 15,760 shingles, at $5 per M                                 78 80
To building slaughter-house                                           250 00
To 125 days' work, at $3.25 per day..               406 25
$2,450 97
Con~rnissioncr Smith to Agcnt Saville.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,
OFFICE INDIAN AFFAIRs,
December 21, 1874.
S~~: I am in'receipt of your letter of the 12th ultimo, relative to the contract entered
into by you with A. R. Appleton for the construction of certain buildings at the Red
Cloud agency, said contract having been disapproved by this Office, and inclosing a
statement of the amount of work performed by Mr. Appleton, with the cost of the same.
In reply, I have to say that I have given your statement a careful consideration;
but I am not able to see how it can be worth $12 per M feet to saw the lumber referred
to by Mr. Appleton, when the mill and logs and engineer were fornishel without any
cost to him, and where the ordinar rates for sawing, where the whole labor of cutting
the lumber is performed, are from 3 to $4, or $4.50 at the largest figure.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
E. P. SMITH,
Co mm issione?'.
J. J. SAVILLE, Esq.,
United States Indian Agent, Red C'oi'd Agency, Dakota. 
799
Agent Sari lie to Con~rnissioae,' Sn~ith.
RED CLOUD AGENCY,
Janua~'y 4, 1~5.
SIR: I am in receipt of your communication of 21st ultimo, relative to the contract
with Mr. Appleton, &c., in which yo~l say, "I am not able to see how it can be worth
$12 per M feet to saw the lumber referred to," "when the ordinary rates for sawing,
where the whole labor of c~tting the lumber is performed are
the largest figure.",   from $3 to $4, or $4.50 at
In reply and in explanation, I will state that I based my estimate of the cost of the
sawing of the lumber at this mill upon what the mill had done. This is one of Blandy's fifteen horse-power portable mills, and purports to cut 3,060 feet per day. It,
perhaps, may do so in timber 20 inches or 24 inches in diameter, but it has never done
that here. The logs here are pitch-pine, knotty, and average about 14 inches in di ameter. From this timber the mill averages, in sawing lumber for the agency, about 1,200
feet per day. This partly results from the frequent repairs required upon the mill as
one which will saw ten or twenty thousand feet, viz, six men besides the engineer.
The wages of the men are from $2 to $2.50 per day.
I did not know the price of sawing at large mills, but formed my judgment upon the
work the mill had done.
Very respectfiilly, your obedient servant
J. J. SAVILLE,
Vaited States h~dian Agent.
Hon. E. P. SMITH,
Co almiss 0 ner of h dian Affairs.
Gon~azissionei' Smith to Agent Saville.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,
OFFICE INDIAN AFFAIRS,
March 19, 1875.
S~~: Iii reply to your letters of the 12th November, 1874, and 4th January, 1875,
relative to the suspended contract of A. R. Appleton for the erection of certain buildings at the Red Cloud agency, I have to say that the explanations contained in said
letters are satisfactory to this Office, and you are hereby directed to cause to be paid
to Mr. Appleton the amount of his account, viz, $2,450.97, from funds that are now, or
may hereafter be, placed in your hands applicable thereto.
For your guidance in the payment of the above account, I would state that it will
l~e necessary that the same should be stated on three different sets of vouchers, as
follows: 1st. Sawing 62,060 feet lumber, at $12 per M, $744.22; making and laying
121,401 shingles, at $8 per M, 970.20; and making 15,760 shingles, at $5 per M, $78.80.
2d. For building slaughter-house, $250, accompanied by explanation showing the
dimensions of the same; and, 3d, for 125 days' work, at $3.25 per day, giving days and
date of each man's service, and if the persons who performed the labor have been paid
by Mr. Appleton, then their receipts to him should be with the account as subvouchers.
A copy of this letter should be with each set of vouchers as your authority in the
premises.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant
E. P. SMITH,
Cornntission er.
J.J. SAVILLE,
United States b~dian Agent, Red CThnd Ageacy, Dakota.
THE SAMUEL WALKER REPORT.
CORRESPONDENCE.
A.
Se~retai.y Delano to Felix P~. Trunot.
DEPARTMENT OF TIlE INTERIOR,
Washington, B. C., Feb~~nary 4, 1874.
S~i~: I an inforn~ed, unofficially, that Mr. Samuel Walker, of your office, has recently
made some examination into the conduct of the agents and general condition of affair~ 
800
at Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies, by direction of the Board of Indian Commissioners, and that he has reported to the board upon the sui~ject.
If what I have beard is correct, I have the honor respectfully to rcqnest information
as to the time of Mr. ~Valker's appointment, and by what authority be was appointe(~,
and also to ask for a copy of his report.
I have the honor to be, very respectfully, your obedient servant.
C.DELANO,
Secretary.
Hon. F. R. BRUNoT,
Pi'esident Board Indian Con missioners, Pittsburgl~, Pa.
B.
Felix P. Bi~nnot to Secretary Delano.
BoARD OF INDIAN C~~~~issioNEns,
Fitisburgh, February 6, 1874.
DEAR Sin: Your letter of 4th instant, stating that you are "informed, unofficially,'7
that Mr. Samuel ~Va1ker, clerk in the office of the board, had recently made son)e examinations at Red Clond and Spotted Tail agencies by direction of the board, requesting to know "by what authority" he was appointed, and asking a copy of his report7
came to hand yesterday, and I have the honor to reply.
I have to report, that through my own inadvertance a copy of Mr. ~Valker's report
was not sent to you at the proper time. I laid it before the board at the January
meeting, and, at my own suggestion, was instructed by resolution to transmit it to you.
Mr. Cree subsequently asked if he should take it over, but was told that I wished to
write a letter to accompany it. I will immediately direct the secretary of the board
to send you a copy of the report, if he has not done so already.
As to the time when Mr. ~Valker was sent, I have not at hand the precise date, but I
think it was about the 1st of Deceniber.
The authority was that of the board, through its chairman, under the acts of Congress appointing and continuing the board from time to time.
In regard to the report of Mr. ~Valker, I may say, further, that a few days before
the meeting of the board I was solicited to furnish a copy for the information of the
committee of the missionary society which bad nominated and was responsible for the
proper conduct of the agents at the two agencies concerned, at their meeting to be
held in New York about the time of the board-meeting.
Deeming it important and proper that this committee should have all the information
in possession of the board at its meeting, which wou id give theni light as to the conduct of their nominecs, I directed a copy to be furnished to them, on condition that it
was to be used solely for the information of the committee in this connection. I am
not yet aware that any other use was made of the information contained than to guide
the committee in the dnty of securing honesty in the administration of the agencies.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
FELIX R. BRUNOT,
Chairman.
Hon. C. Di~LANO,
Seci~etary of the Interio~~.
C.
Thon~as II. Cj'ee to Se~'etary Delano.
BOARD OF INDIAN CO~1MIssIONERs,
Jvashington, D. C., February 11,1874.
Sin: I have the honor to transmit herewith a true copy of tlie report made to Hon.
Felix R. Brunot, chairman of the Board of Indian Commissisuners, by Mr. Samuel
~Valker, of a visit to Red Cloud and ~Vhetstone agencies.
Also, copies of affidavits prepared by Mr. Appletoii as to beeves lost October 8, referred to in the report, and affidavit of Mr. J. Ecoffe as to Dr. Saville haviiig whisky
on the reservation.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
THOMAS K. CI?EE,
Secretary.
The Hon. S~c'iETAuv OF TilE INTERIOR. 
801
D.
THE REPORT.
Ike Red Cloud Agency.
WASHINGTON, Deeentber 6, 1873.
SIR: In compliance with your directions, transmitted to me in an official letter of
October 28, 1873, 1 have the honor to respectfully inform you that I have visited the
Red Cloud a~d Whetstone Indian agencies in Dakota Territory, and have to report as
follows:
On my arrival at Cheyenne, Wyoming, I went to the store-house of the Indian
Department in company with Mr. W. H. Moore, store-keeper, and examined the supplies there awaitiug transportation to the Red Cloud agency. The bacon was very
good, but some of the coffee and sugar looked inferior. There were five brands of
flour delivered under the contract for this year, as follows: 1st, Astor, Saint Louis;
2d, Occidental Mills, Council Bluffs; 3d, Papillion Mills, Nebraska; 4th, State Mills,
Omaha; 5th, Anchor Mills. None of the sacks of the first four brands were marked,
as required by contract, "Indian Department Flour."  Some of the flour was in
single sacks, but I could not ascertain how much. I secured samples of each brand of
flour selected by Mr. Moore and myself, and respectfully submit them herewith; also
Mr. Moore's affidavit as to the samples selected and his estimate of the quantity of
flour in single sacks, &c. The flour appeared to bs very inferior, and is said to be delivered by Mr. J. T. Baldwin for G. M. Dodge.
HIGH PRICES PAID FOR cORN.
Some of tbe corn substituted for flonr at Red Cloud agency, as per letter of Commissioner of Indian Affairs, dated September 16, 1873, was in the store, and looked like
good grain, although I saw some of the same delivery at the ageney very dirty and
inferior. The price paid for it, as stated in the letter of the Commissioner of Indian
Affairs, is $2.26~ per 100 pounds. This price is far above the market rates. Corn is
being delivered in gunnies, in Cheyenne, at $1.70 per 100 pounds, in small quantities.
A large quantity can be obtained in burlap sacks, such as Mr. Dodge, the corn contractor, delivered in, for $1.50 per 100 pounds.  Clark, Parsons & Co., of Omaha, one of
the most reliable firms in that city, offered to furnish 400,000 pounds at Cheyenne at
that rate. So also did Mr. Coilett, a grain-dealer in Cheyenne.
I ascertained while in Cheyenne that the distance to the old Red Cloud agency by
the road usually traveled by heavy trains is about ninety miles, while D. J. McCann
charged the Government for one hundred and thirty-two miles; and that the distance
from Cheyenne to the new Red Cloud agency is variously estimated at one hundred
and eighty-six and one hundred and eighty-eight miles, as per affidavits of John
Compton, train-master of D. J. McCann, signed also by G. W. Perkins, subcontractor
and of Charles Hecht, subcontractor, while D. J. McCann charged for two hundred
and twelve miles. I also submit a copy of the contract between D. J. McCann and
Charles Hecht, which shows that Mr. McCann only paid $1 per 100 pounds for the
whole distance to the old agency, and that the transportation is now furnished for
$1.20 per 100 pounds per one hundred miles to the new agency from the old.
AFFAIRS AT NEW RED CLOUD AGENCY.
I arrived at new Red Cloud agency November 9. The affairs of this agency are conducted very loosely. I was informed by the clerk who receives the stores that nothin is weighed on receipt from the freight-contractor, who gets receipts for all his bills
of lading, and that the agent, Dr. Saville, said he need not weigh. To any one at all
acquainted with the character of the class of men engaged in freighting on the remote
frontier, it is obvious that the Government loses largely by this practice, and it is inconceivable how any person possessed of the least desire to care for the interests of
the Government and the Indians could tolerate such a practice. Neither is there any
record of the amount of beef received at the agency, other than Copies of the receipts
issued to the contractor, which ~Ir. Bosler, who is really the beef-contractor, informed
me he made out himself. The beeves had been received by an average weight, ascertained by weighing, as is alleged, some of the largest cattle, until November 7, when
the cattle-scale was put up, with a cattle-corral, for weighing.
In examining the papers of the agency up to the date of my arrival I found no
statement of the beef account with the contractor, and on asking Mr. Appleton, the
acting agent, for an estimate of the amount for which receipts were due the ~ontractor
to that date, he informed me that he could not tell until he sent to Mr. George M.
B~isler, at his camp, some thirty-five miles distant, and I was compelled to accept his
pronlise to obtain the figures for me on my return from Whetstone agency. But even
then Mr. Bosler did not bring his account, and I waited two days longer than was oth      51 1 F 
802
erwise necessary at Red Cloud agency, while Mr. Bosler went to his camp ostensibly to
examine his accounts and the orders of the agent in his possession, and to let me know
the resnit.  Re again returned to the agency the day before I left, and said the Government owed him for seven hundred and ninety-eight beeves, or maybe more, but he
was not sure, as he said one of his herders had two of the orders which he had not seen.
Thus the account of heef received at the agency was kept by Mr. Bosler.  The issues
of supplies are made to chiefs of hands for their bands, or to some chief or head-man
designated by the hand.
Flour, coffee, sugar, &c., are issued in quantities according to the amount on hand
and no record is kept of the amount issued, the returns being made out to balance
with the amount on hand. The Indians are by this plan charged with the amounts
stolen by freight-contractors and others, and fed to employ~s, all of whom are fed from
Indian supplies. The beef is issued by beeves on the 1st, 8th, 15th, aud 23d of each
month-so many beeves being allowed to each band.  For instance, Little Wound's
band, said to number two hundred lodges, receives forty beeves for seven days' rations.
When the average of the beef is greatly overestimated, the Indians are charged with
and cheated out of the amount of the overestimate. If this baud received their cattle
at the actual value, they would only be entitled to forty beeves, each weighing seven
hundred and thirty-five pounds, and all over that weight is an unjustifiable issue,
which is covered by misrepresenting the actual number of lodges in accounting to the
Department. Little Wound's band received one beef to five lodges, by a special arrangement of Dr. Saville, who promised to allow them that number if they permitted
him to count their lodges.  Little Wolf's band received a like proportion.  On the
other hand, Red Cloud's and other bands received less than this ration. I endeavored
to get a statement of the number of beeves issued since Dr. Saville took charge, but
found that no regular record of the number of beeves issued was kept, beyond the
rough issue-lists of the comniissary clerk; and those of the third quarter having been
destroyed, after the return of provisions for that quarter was rendered, I had to limit
inquiries into the beef transactions to the months of October and November.
INDIANS CHEATED OUT OF WHOLE ISSUES.
The papers of the agency show that on the 1st of October there were on hand
14,948 pounds of beef, and that during the month there were received, as per receipts
of J. J. Saville, on the 1st day of October, 647 head, averaging 1,063 pounds each, and
on the 15th day of October, 633 head, averaging 1,043 pounds each, making a total of
1,362,928 pounds.
From a statement of Mr. B. F. Walters, it is seen that 1,163 head were charged as
issued to Indians during the month. The chief herder stated to me that he had on the
1st day of October 60 head of beeves, which, added to the 1,280 beeves for which receipts were given, would amount to 1,340 beeves, of which 1,163 were issued, leaving
177 head which should have been on hand October 31, less 52 head said by Mr. Appleton to have been lost by stampede, and 10 head said to have been given by Dr. Saville
to Nic Jamis on account of rations for his half-breed children, living eighty-eight
miles from the agency. It will be seen hereafter that there was not a pound of beef
on hand at this date.
FALSE AND FRAUDULENT RECEIPTS FOR BEEF.
The receipts of Dr. Saville were, however, false and fraudulent.  He did not receive
647 head on the 1st of October, nor 633 head on the 15th of October.  On the 1st day
of October no issue was made at the agency, because the herd of the contractor stampeded the night before delivery, and J. Bissinette, interpreter, swears that two issues
were oniitted in October, one on the 1st and one on the 15th. This testimony appears
to be corroborated by a draught of an affidavit prepared by Mr. A. R. Appleton for the
signature and attestation of the chief herder, in which he says that a herd of about
600 beeves stampeded on the 8th of October, which could not have been the case, as
to the number stampeded, had the herd been received on the 1st and an issue made
of 282 head, as alleged.
On the 8th of October, 297 head were issued, a number, which I could not ascertain,
having been received on the day before, and after issue the herd stanipeded, and Dr.
Saville then decided not to keep an agency herd, and directed the chief herder to turn
over to Mr. Bosler's herd all the cattle recovered, which he did, to the number of 217
Of this number Mr. Bosler only acknowledged the receipt of 177 head.
Thus, after the 8th day of October there were no cattle left at the Red Cloud agency,
and no herd was received except 185 head,issued on the 18th, (or more probably on
the 21st,) and subsequently 399 head, said to have been issued on the 23d, (or more
probably on the 25th.) The latter issue was made on the solicitation of Mr. Appleton
by Dr. Saville, before the departure of the latt~r for Washington, for the 1st of November, no issue being made from October 25 until November 8.
On 2;284;2081]the 8th day of November 390 beeves, said to average 993 pounds each, were received noid issued; and on the 18th of November 410 beeves, averaging 967 pounds, 
803
were received and issued. I was present, and assisted in the weighing of the herd
received November 18, and it was said by the whites and Indians to have been the
finest herd received during the year.
RECEIPTS GIVEN FOR CATTLE NOT RECEIVED.
On the 21st of November Mr. George M. Bosler informed me that the Government
owed him receipts for 798 head of cattle received dnring November. Dr. Savilie,
therefore, gave a receipt on the 1st of October for 647 head of cattle, and certifl~d that
he weighed twenty head, and that their average weight was 1,063 ponnds, and for 633
bead ~n the 15th, averaging 1,043 ponnds each, when, in fact, no such number of
beeves was received, and receipts were given for cattle which the agent never saw.
There is no record to show that any of the lot received October 18 (or 21) were weighed
at all.  It will be seen, then, that the Governu~ent is charged with receiving 1,280
beeves during October, and that there were on hand, October 1, 60 beeves, making in
all 1,340 beeves belonging to the agency.  From these there were issued, October 8,
297 head, October 21, 185 head, and October 25, 399 head,leaving 439 head unaccounted
for for that month, as Mr. Bosler claims receipts for 798 head for November.
I think it clear that fraud was intended. Mr. J. H. Bosler told me in Cheyenne that
he made out the receipts for the agent's signature, and as those receipts purported to
represent deliveries of cattle on dates on which both he and the agent, Dr. Saville,
kn~w that no such deliveries were made, and that weights were certified to, especially
on the receipt of October 15, when no cattle were weighed, there was clearly collusioa
between Dr. Saville and Mr. J. H. Bosler to obtain payment from the Government for
beef not delivered, either as to number or weight of beeves. In confirmation of this,
I invite attention to the affidavits of J. Bissinette, who swears that Dr. Saville told
him that the cattle, about the beginning of October, averaged about 1,000 pounds, not
1,063, as certified to.  The affidavit of Thomas W. Reed, subagent, shows that the
cattle actually received from Mr. Bosler were not of the weights represented by the
certificates, as does also that of J. Bissinette, interpreter, who swears that he called
the attention of Dr. Saville to the fact that only large cattle were brought up to be
weighed.  I was also informed by a herder at the agency, who had been raised among
cattle, and was a herder on the Kansas cattle-trail, that 920 pounds would be a good
average for all the cattle received since August 1 at the Red Cloud agency. Mr. Appleton weighed the lot of 390 cattle received November 8, and allowed an average of
993 pounds, although the actual weight was 958 pounds each, he having allowed the
contractor, Mr. Bosler, 35 pounds per head for overdriving. The following is a statement of the number of lodges of Indians said to be at Red Cloud agency since October
1,1873:
Lodges.   Indians                     Lodges.   Indians
October 1, 131     14,917  November 1          2,351    16, 457
October 8         2, 158    15, 106  November 8          2,419     16,933
October 15         2,213    15, 491  November 18         2,386     16,702
October 23         2,273    15, 911
From the best information to be had on the subject, I am satisfied that there are no~
more than 1,100 lodges, or 7,700 Indians, at the agency. It is claimed that the agent
cannot obtain an accurate estimate of the number of lodges, because the Indians are
averse to being counted, and will not allow a census to be taken, and that he cannot
lessen the issue of beef without risk to his life and the lives of the agency employ~s.
On these points I would respecfully refer to the affidavits of J. Bissinette and Y. W.
Reed herewith.
VNAUTHORIzED EXPENDITURES BY AGENTS.
I respectfully invite attention to the variableness of the issues in October, as to the
number of beeves issued and the dates of issue. If the Indians were so violent, as
represented, the agent would have been afraid to deprive them of two issues in one
month.  There is no authority for receiving or issuing so much beef, if I may except
a statement made by J. H. Bosler, that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs had told
Mr. Wilder "to go ahead and furnish what beef was wanted." By the terms of the
advertisement for supplies for the Indian service for the fiscal year 1873-74, "the right
to increase or diminish the quantity of each or any of the articles" is reserved by the
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and as I could find no authority from him authorizing
the agent at Red Cloud agency to receive more than 416,666~ per month, I infer that
the agent's action in receiving more than that quantity has been illegal and not binding upon the Government, especially as this advertisement forms part of the terms of
~he contract with Mr. Wilder, and mus~ be well known to him and the agent.  Dr.
Saville purchased ten horses after his arrival at the agency, which he certifies were
~bsolutely necessary for herding purposes. I found four of them used for an ambuance team.  He paid $700 for the ten. They were of the kind known as "Broncos,"
which are usually purchased for $50 apiece when sound and serviceable.  Of the ten 
804
~urchased, only two might have been worth $70 ead~. All the others could be bought
at any time for from $40 to $45 each. None of the teu were fit for herding.
On the report of employ6s for the third quarter of 1873, Frank D. Appleton, son of
A. H. Appleton, superintendent of buildings at Red Cloud agency, and, I believe, a
brother-in4aw of Dr. Saville, appeared on the roll as derk from August 19, 1873, at
$125 per month. He only came to the agency November 9,1873, and I was informed
that A. R. Appleton, his father, received the check drawn for his services to September
31, 1873, and signed his (Frank D. Appleton's) name to the proper voucher therefor.
During my stay at the agency a number of blankets of the annuity goods of 1873-'74
were shown to me. They are undoubtedly inferior to the samples upon which the contracts were made; also some knives, of which the Indians complained very much.  I
brought samples of the white, dark-blue, and scarlet 2~-point blankets to Washington
with me, and have turned them over to the secretary of the board; also one of the
knives.
UNJUSTIFIABLE TRANSAcTIoNS.
I respectfully call your attention to the turning over of beeves by Dr. Saville to
Mr. 3~sler's herd, after giving receipts for them, at an average of 1,063 pounds each,
and the subsequent receipt of the 18th, without weighing; also to the receipt of the
15th, given without at that time receiving cattle; also to the affidavit of Subagent
Reed, which shows at least one instance in which beef justly due was kept back from
the Indians while there was enough to their credit; to the allowance of 35 pounds
per head extra on the herd received November 8; to the delivery of tea beeves to Nick
Janis for his half-breed family; to the gift of two bolts of Indian cloth to Joseph Bissinette, as per his affidavit; and to the fact of Dr. Saville having had liquor on the Indian reservation, as sworn to by Mr. Ecofee. There can be no justification for any
one of the transactions referred to. I also respectfully invite attention to the accompanying statement of Mr. H. W. Moore. Todd Randall the man referred to, now an
Indian trader at Red Cloud agency, was recently at Whetstone agency, and does not
bear a good character. I was informed that Mr. A. H. Appleton purchased the goods
for Randall's trader's store at the Red Cloud agency. I was also informed that Mr. A.
H. Appleton was discounting the checks of the agent paid to employ~s for services at
the rate of 5 per cent.
THE WHETSTONE AGENCY.
I left Red Cloud agency on the morning of November 12, and arrived at Whetstone
agency the same evening, after a drive of about forty miles.  I was able to get but
very little information at this agency as to the manner of doing business, the clerk,
who was acting agent in the absence of Agent Howard, being nuacqualuted with the
routine dnties.
I examined the supplies delivered under the contract for 1873-'74, and found that the
flour was a better article than that delivered at Red Cloud agency.  There were only
three brands, as follows: 1. St. James Mills, Neb.; 2. Exchange Mills, Sioux City;
3. City Mills, Sioux City; all of which appeared to be nearly, if not quite, as good as
the samples of flour contracted for received from the Indian Office.  Samples are
respectfully submitted herewith.
A SPECIMEN OF POOR FLOUR.
I also examined the old flour which had been delivered by Cl. M. Dodge under the
~onftact of 1872-'73, and respectfully transmit herewith a sample selected in the presence of the agent's clerk, Mr. Willard D. Bray, and S. F. Estes, who pronounced it to be
a fair specimen of the whole delivery.  It is a nondescript article neither flour nor
meal, and totally unfit for issue as flour.  In receiving the supplies at this agency parts
only are weighed. The clerk informed me that lie thought nearly all the bacon was
weighed, and sometimes the sugar and coffee. The flour and corn were not weighed.
Several sacks of corn were taken and weighed, and their average allowed for the trainload from which they were taken. The issues were calculated by the number of lodges
said to be present, not by the amounts actually issued, of which no record is kept.
Tickets are issued to chiefs, headmen, or other persona representing bands or lodges,
for the amounts which they are to receive. These tickets are orders on the issue-clerk
from the agent's office for supplies for a stated number of lodges, which, as the clerk
told me, never equal the number claimed by the Indians, as they usually overstated
their. numbers. I observed, however, that credit was taken on the returns for the full
number claimed by the Indians, and, as an instance of this mode of dealing, I submit
the following as coming under my own observation:
INDIANS CHEATED LN THEIR SUPPHES.
A party of Minneconjous and Unepapas, numbering 28 lodges, came to rhe agency
while I was there and got rations for seven or eight days. The clerk issued some supplies, and when they insisted on having beef too, he gave them an order for one beef. 
805
This was to supply 3,969 pounds of beet, and there was not one animal in il~e herd of
beeves then at the agency which would weigh 1,000 pounds. If they happened to get
one of the smallest ones which I saw there, they could not have had niore than 26~
pounds, net weight, of beef.
The beef here, as at Red Cloud agency, is issued by beeves, with the same general
results in case of overestimated averages. The re turn of provisions for the third qnarter of 1873 showed that the agent had on hand, September 30, 1873, 955,039 pounds of
beet, calculated at 950 beeves, and the receipt of the agent was given in October for
1,056 head, making a total of 2,006.
Of this number, there was said to have been issued as follows: October 1, 233 head
to 730 lodges; October 10, 269 head to 1,085 lodges; October 20, 307 head to 1,146 lodges,
during the month, about 70 head to 100 of whites makii~g a total of 879 head issued in
October. There was is~ued November 1, 315 head to 1,197 lodges; November 10, 373
head to 1,553 lodges; November 10, 47 head to 100 of whites; making in all 735 head
issued in November. During the quarter there was said to have been six head stol~n
by Indians and one head lost by disease, leaving a total of 385 head to be accounted
for at the date of my visit. Of that number, the chief herder and clerk (acting agent~
reported to me, when I visited the herd, some ten miles distant from the agency, that
there were 130 head on band. I subsequently learned that 38 of the cattle shown to
me as beeves were work-cattle, belonging to the agency and freighters in the neighborhood. There were, therefore, only 92 head of beeves at the agency, leaving 293 head
nuaccounted f{~r. Subsequently the acting agent said that the round return of pro
visions for the third quarter of 1873, which he showed me, was not correct, and that he
had not deducted from it 55 head said to have been taken by Indians. If this statement is correct, there yet remains 232 head to be accounted for, and the only inference
is that receipts were given for a larger i~umber of beeves than were actually received r
nnless the chief herder failed to give an accurate statement of his losses.
HOW TllE BEEF-cONTRAcTOR MAKES MONEY.
Having no means of weighing in gross provided as yet, the average of cattle at this
age'~cy was ascertained by weighing a few head selected by the chief herder and
weighed by the butcher, who, I was informed, at one time weighed the end-gate of a
wagon with each of the four quarters of a beet, and counted the whole as the net
weight of the animal; and at another time cut the beef in two parts, leaving all the
-neck, backbone, &c. on one side, which he weighed and multiplied by two, to represent
the net weight of the animal.  This man and the chief herder are relied on by the
agent, who never attends to the weights personally, to give the average weights for
which the Government pays, and with which the Indians are charged.
I have no hesitation in saying that the average of the October lot must have been
largely overestimated; for, of the 92 head on hand, there was not one which would
weigh 1,000 pounds; while, on the other hand, there were two very small animals,
between 2 and 3 years old, in the herd, not weighing 600 pounds each, and a large proportion of the balance would not weigh over 800 pounds each. It was said by the
chief herder that this was the last lot of the herds of September and October, and did
not represent fairly the size of the cattle in those herds. But if this were true, they,
having been so long on hand, should have been in good condition, which they were
n&~t. I am convinced, after weighing the splendid lot of cattle delivered at Red Cloud
agency November 17, and which averaged only 967 pounds, that no common herd of
Texan cattle, which had in it any number of such animals as I saw in this herd, could
weigh more than 900 pounds average. It appeared to me that the introduction of the
work-cattle in the herd was an attempt to cover up an overaverage. When I spoke
to the acting agent on the subject, he said it was not done by his orders.
INSUFFIcIENT ISSUES OF BEEF.
I also examined a lot of 150 hides which were spread out to dry by the trader, and
found the greater part to be small hides, such as might be taken from cattle weighing
from 750 to 800 pounds. It became evident to me that the 92 head on band were intended for the issue of November 20. It was my intention to be present at the receipt
and weighing of one lot of the cattle received at the Red Cloud and Whetstone agencies, and I endeavored to make arrangements to that end. Mr. Willard, the clerk iii
charge at Whetstone, informed me that he expected a herd by the 20th or 21st, and I
left Whetstone on the 17th to be present at the receipt and issue at Red Cloud agency
on the 18th, intending to return on the 19th, and be present at the receipt and issue of
cattle, October 20, at Whetstone, but Mr. George M. Bosler told me at Red Cloud agency
that Mr. Willard had said that when he wanted beef he would send word to his camp,
and that he had 1982]at that date, November 18, received no notice from Mr. Willard, and
that he understood, when visiting the agency the day before my arrival, that enough
beef was on hand for an issue. This lot of 92 was then deafly intended for the issue
of November 20, no provision having been made for an additional supply. I respectfully invite attention to the issues of October 1 and 10. According to the number of 
80(3
catfie issued October 1 to 730 lodges, tbe 1,085 lodges, issued to October 10, would be
entitled to 345 beeves, while tbey received only 269. 1 also invite attention to a similar disparity in the issues of November 1 and 15. The issues charged to the Governinent are undoubtedly excessive, as are also the receipts, for which, under~the terms of
the advertisement for supplies for 1873 and 1874, the Government caunot be held responsible.
ISSUES CHARGED TO INDIANS NOT PRESENT.
The number of Indians to which issues are charged is far in excess of tlie number
actually present. The clerk at the agency told me that he calculates the number
present to he about as in any more as properly belonged to the agency. Messrs. Kemble and Alvord ascertained that from 2,300 to 2,500 Indians properly belong to the
~Whetstone agency, and 5,000 persons would, therefore, be a fair estimate of the number of Indians fed. Or, estimated by lodges, there should be no more than 720 lodges
to be issued to; and this I believe to be a liberal estiniate of the number fed up to the
present. Just before I left I beard that a large number of Minneconjoux were expected
to arrive-perhaps 200 lodges. This would increase the number at the agency to 900
lodges, more or less, and I am satisfied that that is the highest number of lodges that
received rations at Whetstone agency this year.
The corn delivered at this agency was complained of by Spotted Tail as being very
old and dry. It is to be delivered as per the letter of the Commissioner of Indian
Affairs of September 16, for $3.60 per 100 pounds. This cannot be done without loss to
the contractor. He can furnish corn, delivered at the agency, for $4.62 per 100 pounds,
at a fair profit, but not for less. On examining the agency records, I found that C.
Ferris, jr., member of the tradin firm of Pratt & Ferris, at Fort Randall, was on the
roll of employ~s as subagent, at 100 p er month. The senior member of the firm of
Pratt & Ferris, J. H. Pratt, is the trader at Whetstone agency. I respectfully invite
your special attention to this arrangement, which appears to me to be entirely in conflict with the best interests of the Government. I found a voucher in favor of J. H.
Pratt for 38,400 pounds of oats, at 7 cents per pound, delivered at the agency. This
is a very high price. Oats were delivered to a private individual at Whetstone agency,
on a small retail purchase, at 5.20 cents per pound. There was also a voucher for
6,400 pounds of seed-oats, at 7~ cents per pound. This is also proportionately high.
UNNECESSARY EXPENDITURES FOR LABOR.
I observed that one chief herder and seven herders were employed at this agency,
~hile Red Cloud agency only needed one chief herder and four herders. Tne latter
~number is amply sufficient for all the needs of either agency. The number of laborers
also appears to be excessive. There are eleven who receive $50 per month, while the
laborers at Red Cloud agency receive only $40 per month, with the exception of four,
~ho are skilled laborers. I think seven would be sufficient. There does not appear
to be a necessity for more than one person to butcher. C. Bernard's services might be
dispensed with. The herd farmer, Raymond, is a freighter, and attends particularly
to that branch of the business. There were three Texan horses on the papers of the
agency, of which I could learn nothing of the acting agent.
There were no papers left at the agency by late Agent Risley from which I could
form any estimate of the transaction of business dnring his incumbency. From the
best iniormation I could get, he had not been at the agency in all more than thirty
seven days. The beef received under the contract of l872-'73 was very much overaveraged, and was not of the kind contracted for, a large portion being two and three
year olds, which could not have weighed more than 600 to 700 pound~ each. The testimony on this poiiit at the agency is almost unanimous.
I endeavored to obtain an accurate list of the persons who freighted under the contract to remove the public property at the old Whetstone agency to the prese~it location; but, owing to the absence of most of the freighters, was unable to get the personal testimony of each as to the amount he carried. I ascertained, however, that
Dr. Graves took no part in the removal, either personally or by deputy; all the goods,
supplies, &c., were delivered and received by Government employ~s, and all accounts
of weights, &c., were turned into the agent's office, from which due-bills were issued
to the freighters for the amounts due them at $1 per 100 pounds for the whole distance.
I traveled over the roads which led from the old to the new Whetstone agency, and
believe the distance does not exceed thirty-three miles.
I returned to Washington on the 1st instant, and reported for duty at the office of
the board.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
SAMUEL WALKER,
Clerk of the Board.
Hon. FELIX R. BRUNOT,
Chairman Board of Indian Commissioners. 
807
F.
THE BISHOP HARE REPORT.
ADMINISTRATION OF RED CLOUD AND WHETSTONE AGENCrES.
S~ecia1 rerort.
To the Hon. C. DELANO,
Seci~etary of the Inte,~ior:
S~~: The commission appointed to investigate into the administration of the Red
Cloud and Whetstone (Spotted Tail) agencies, and to inqnire into the temper and condition of the Indians connected with these agencies, and to make such recommendations
ItS upon examination should seem to them judicious as to the line of policy to he pursued
toward them, beg leave respectfnlly to report, that they met at the Red Cloud agency,
Dakota, March 16, 1574, all the commissioners being present, as tollows: F. H. Smith,
one of the Board of Indian Commissioners; J. D. Bevier, United States Indian inspector; Rev. S. D. Hinman, for fifteen years missionary among the Santee Sioux; and W.
H. Hare, missionary bishop to the Indians.
On motion, it was resolved that the commissioners organize and conduct their proceedings as a single body.  Thereupon ~Villiam H. Hare was chosen chairman of the
commission, and F. H. Smith secretary.
CONDITION OF TIlE INDIANS.
Before reporting the results of their mission, it may be well to state that the Indians
properly connected with the Red Cloud and the Whetstone agencies are the Ogallallas
and the Upper Brul~s, respectively. They are among the most distant of the Sioux
from civilizing influences, and the last who have accepted a position of dependence upon
the Government, and their agencies are the resort during the winter of multitudes of
northern Indians, (Minneconjous, Sans Arcs, Uncpapas, &c.,) variously estimated at
from 10,000 to 15,000 in nuniber, who range over districts still farther removed from
civilization and the power of the Governn~ent, and who, when driven in from their roving life upon the plains farther north by the rigors of the winter, come to the Red
Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies, attracted by the rations which the Government dispenses there.
The wilder spirits among the Ogallalias and Upper Brul~s find in tbese sojourners
congenial company. Combined, they constitnte a turbulent party, which for the time
rules the agencies with a high hand. The better-disposed Indians have not yet reached
strength enough, either in number or character, to resist these impetuous hordes from
the north and their abettors. Those who sincerely desire to learn a better way dare not
raise their heads and those who favor progress in quiet times, because it seems the
winning side, are politic enough to float with the tide when its tumultuous waters run
the other way. From the time of the arrival of these outside bands, white men living
on the reservation are careful not to expose themselves after night-fall, and those who
for niouths have been accustomed to travel through the country alone, without fear of
niolestation, seek an escort of friendly Indians. 1' he agents are subjected to intimidation and to the most violent and unreasonable demands, while now and then small
war-parties dash off into the adjacent country in the hope of happening upon a stray
sol~lier or finding an opportunity of running off stock.
This turbulence usually continues and increases until it reaches its di max about the
time when the severity of the winter is relaxing, and the visitors from the north are
be~inning to make their preparatioiis for a return to their wild northern retreats.
Your commissioners found that the past winter had been no exception to the general
rule. Comparative quiet prevailed at both agencies during all last summer and early
fitlI, but upon the incoming of the northern Indians trouble at once began. The most
extravagant demands were made for rations, and enforced by intimidation. The efforts
of the agents to make a census of the people ~which was essential to the proper regu~ation of the issue of rations) were thwarted and defied. When registration was, notwithstanding, attempted, the agents were forcibly restrained and their lives were
threatened, and they were infornied that, should they dare pass beyond certain limits
which were marked out for theiii, they would do it at their peril.
F~arly in Feb~~ary a war-party, one or two hundred strong, was organized-perhaps
there were several of them-and started on a marauding expedition for the settlement
farther south.
Your commissioners have no exact information as to the amount of stock which was
run off by these parties; but within ten days a man named King, a hunter, was shot
on Laramie Fork; Edgar Gray, a teamster, was killed on the Running Water; Lieutenant Robinson and Corporal Coleman, while absent from their train, were pursued and
killed near Laramie Peak; and Frank D. Appleton, clerk, was shot dead (as is supposed, 
808
by one of the above-mentioned war-party on its return) within the stockade at the Red
Cloud agency.
There is sufficient evidence to satisfy the commission that fl0e better spirits discountenanced these lawless proceedings; that the murder of Appleton moved one of the
chiefs to tears; that the agents were able to fOrm a number of the Indians into a guard
to protect themselves and their agencies; that one Indian, and he a northern man, demanded the return of stolen horses from a war-party of which his nephew was a leader,
and, when it was refused, shot hitn and rescued the stolen property by force; and that
another defended his agent at the peril of his own life. But, notwithstanding, turbulence seems to have reigned for some time almost supreme.
IS WAR TllE NEEDED REMEDY ~
Lamentable as has been the condition of affairs, your commissioners have not discovered
any proof that the Indiaiis have been preparing for or intending to provoke a war with
the United States. While it cannot be affirmed that these Indians are generally friendly
in their feelings to the whites, their loyalty to the Great Father is evidently both
general and deep-seated. It is, moreover, plain that there have been no common councils against the whites, and that there has heen no concentrated action. Confirmatory
of this opinion is the fact, that when the troops appeared at the agencies the great body
of Indians who belonged there remained, leaving their visitors to go their way. The
exhibitions of violence in which the turbulence has culminated have been the commissioners are convinced, simply those of Indian rowdyism.
Whether the northern Indians intend war the commissioners cannot say. They
have not been able to find any indications of it, other than those which have caused
nneasiness in former years. If these northern tribes can be brought under the influence of the present feeding policy of the Government, a few years will witness the
en tire removal of all fears on this score.
The advance which has been made toward the solution of the Sioux problem, in the
case of all those tribes which have been brought under the operation of the present
policy, is manifest.  It was but six years ago that the Indians now gathered about fl~e
Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies were constantly upon tile war-path, and were
among the most dangerous foes of the Government. Under the present policy their
wild, fierce spirit has been taming down, and their proud sense of power and the defiant temper which resulted froin it have been decreasing, while their dependence upon
the Government hns been increasing every mouth, so that a general war movement on
their part. except under extraordinary l)rovocation, is almost out of the question.
Your conimissioners have failed to discover any symptonis calculated to weaken their
faith in the practical wisdom of the present policy of the Governmeiit and of its desire
to avoid a war with the Sioux if it be possible. The history of our past Indian wars
is humiliating. It is folly to d~ve to desperation, except under the pressure of absolute duty, a wild and ferocious people, who could bring into the field from six thousand
to seven thousand warriors, with whom war is a passion, who range over a wild
country of vast extent which is a te~~a incognita to the white man, but every inch of
which is familiar to the Indian, and whose warfiire would be characterized by all the
peculiar difficulties with which guerrilla war confronts tlie army of a civilized people.
Only two methods of carrying on such a war can be conceived of, it is believed,
which would give any assurance of success.
The first is to descend to the level of the Indian, and fight bini with wild frontiersmen, after his own savage mode; a course which civilized people cannot adopt without self-degradation.
The other method is to inaugurate war on a scale gigantic enough to surround or
occupy the whole Indian country; a plan which would call for an expenditure of
money and the raising of an army which our people are not likely to authorize and
sustain unless under a sense of duty or of wounded natioiial hoiior, which there is no
likelihood the present or future attitude of the Indians will create.
War, then, the co'nniissioners consider out of the question, hut not support of tito
agents by the en~p1oyrnen t of military force.
The Govemment owes it to its agents to save them from the necessity of being the
toys or tools of lawless savages, and thus becoming a hinderance rather than a help to
their real pFogress, and to put at their command sufficient power to enable them to
discharge their duties and to make their reasonable demands respected.
It owes it to the better-di~posed Indians to secure them another resource than falling
in with the proceedings of the wild and riotous, or else becoming their victims, aiid to
see that brute violence shall no longer keep at a distance those missionary and educational instrumentalities which the better Indians desire and their friends are ready to
provide.
The commissioners know of no way in which this protection can be secured but by
the posting of a military force in the neighborhood of all agencies aniong the wilder
Siouz. They believe that the mere presence of troops would ordinarily accomplish all 
809
that is desired; tbat the use of a military force for proper pnrposes would command
the approval of the better-disposed Indians; that familiarity with the presence of
troops would tend greatly toward taming the wilder Sioux, by accustoming them to
the sight and tolerance of white men; that the support of troops would enable the
agents to be a power "for the punishment of evil-doers and for fl~e praise of those that
do wcll," and to drive away from among the Indians the white desperadoes and fugitives from justice who have hitherto frequently been able BOt only to niake the ~~encies their refuge, but to exert a very sensible influence there. The corrupting influence of private soldiers, which will at once occnr to many minds as an objection to
this plan, is not to be feared among the wilder Sioux as much as elsewhere, as the
women are generally virtuous, and these bad influences might be reduced to a minimum by the placing of the post at a short distance from the agencies and by the exclusion of Indians from their precincts.
In c~firmatiou of some of the points just made it may be well to state the interestin  fact that your commissioners found on arriving at the agencies that, aithongli
there had been the greatest opposition on the part of the Indians to the coming of the
troops, they did not attack fl~em, and became reconciled to their presence when the
commission assured them that the soldiers were not seat to make war, but to protect
good men and their agency, and that during their whole stay of some weeks and their
many conferences with the Indians but few nrgeat words of dislike to the presence of
the troops were uttered, however much the Indian young men may have bantered the
soldiers with alarming stories and threats.
Should the continued occupation of these agencies by troops be determined on, your
conimissioners recomniend that the relations of the agents and the military commanders should receive careful consideration and be definitely determined.
NORTHERN TRIBES.
From the above narrative it is apparent, your commissioners think, that the agents
at Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies have as many Indians in those, now properly
connected with their agencies, (say about 5,000 or (;,000 each,) as they can possibly
manage; that the no~thern tribes, who make it a habit to come into their agencies in
the fall, are a disturbing element, strengthening the evil-disposed and enfeebling the
nod  and that they are a part of the Sioux Nation, numerous eneugh and important
~nongh to call for a distinct effort of the Governnient for their conciliation and eventual civilization. To this end, your commissioners respectfully recommend that a delegatica be induced to visit ~Vasbington the coming summer-a mode of treatment of
tested eflicacy; that they be informed that no Indians will hereafter be fed at either
Red Cloud or Spotted Tail agency without being first enrolled; that they be di scouraged from going to those agencies; and that they be offered an agency of their own.
Tiie question at once arises, where should the agency be located? The hive of the
hostile Sioux, their retreat in times of danger, their place of council when marauding
~arties are being organized, is the Black Hills. All agencies, all military forts yet
established by the Government, being upon the fringe only of an immense country,
have left the vast power which circles about this spot, the pride of the nation, untouched.
An agency and a garrison planted somewhere near these hills would put the whole
Sioux country and people under the control of the Government as they have never
been before, and open up this at present impenetrable heart of the nation to the rays
of civilizing influences; and if the bottom-lands of fl~e forks of the Cheyenne and of
the streams which flow into them from the Black Hills should prove, upon examinatiour
good for agricultural purposes, as many represent that they are, the commission believe the planting of an agency in the Black Hills country worth all the expense which
its establishment would involve.
COUNCILS wITH THE INDIANS.
The commission held a number of councils with the Indians at both the agencies.
The northern Indians had gone off upon hearing of the approach of the troops, and the
efforts of the cominission to secure a hearing from them were not successful. The
attendance of chiefs and headmen of the Ogallallas, however, at their agency, and of
the Upper Brule's at theirs, was very general. The following points were urged upon
them at both agencies, in an address delivered on behalf of the commission by their
chairman, a copy of which accompanies this report:
1st. That they should submit immediately to the registration of their people.
2d. That they should deliver up Indians who murdered white men or committe~
depredations upon their property; or that if, for any reason, they were unable to do
this, they should countenance their agent in calling in the military force to arrest the
offender.
3d. That, as the occasion of most murders and depredations was the absence of Indi 
810
ans from their reservation in the exercise of the privilege accorded them by the treaty
of 1868, to hunt buffalo on the Republican Fork, and to roam in the country south of
their reservation as far as the North Platte, they had better consent, for a proper consideration, to surrender this right.
4th. That the Government proposed to send a party of surveyors to run the northern
line of Nebraska, and that the Indians should put no obstacles in their way.
5th. That the Indians should consent to the removal of their agencies to such localities as might be fixed upon by the commission, after a careful exploration by the
commissioners, accompanied by a large representation of Indians.
The people were evidently much disappointed that the commission had no attractive
promises to make nor presents to distribute, and the state of mind was exhibited on
all sides which is to be expected when the Government, having pursued with some
success the commendable policy of drawing savages in from their native defiance by
conciliation and presents, arrives at the point when it must teach them their duties.
Discussions with them revealed most unreasonable expectations, pitiable want of
appreciation of the benefits already conferred, and gross misconception of the requirements of the treaty of 1868.  Indeed, it became more and more apparent every day
that neither the people, nor their chiefs who signed the treaty, now understand, nor
indeed ever understood, its terms.  This opinion was confirmed by conversation held
afterward with persons familiar with the India~is.  He who would have looked for
anything else has not learned human nature well, nor his first lesson in dealing with
the wild children of the plain.  It was delightful, however, to notice the universal
reverence and love which exist for their Great Father, as they term the President and
the self-control with which, with some exceptions, their speeches and their couduct
were distinguished. The only violations of this moderatiou were on two occasions,
when, to cut off remarks on either side, the Indians were on a sudden dispersed by a
signal given by their chiefs, and the commission were left, the first time a little to
their consternation, without an audience.
The registration, which was the first point urged by the commission, was assented to
at the Red Cloud agency without much opposition, and was made (for a first essay,
somewhat satisfactorily) by the ageat within a week after our first council.  At the
Whetstone agency it met with more opposition.
The second point urged by the commission would have confronted them with a much
less difficult task had the Indians not been able to array before them a counterbalancing
record of depredations upon the persons and property of Indians committed by white
men.
The reply to this second point was the same in substance at both agencies.  The
Indians said that a chief, Whistler, well known as a friendly Indian, and two of his
men, bad been murdered in the summer of 1872, and that within a few weeks a large
number of horses had been run off by white men from the neighborhood of the Red
Cloud agency.
They represented that these murderers and depredators had never yet been punished,
and that if the Government of the United States could not succeed in capturing whitp
men who murdered Indians, it was hardly fair that it should expect Indians to capture
Indians who murdered white men.  They urged, further, that the Indians had no
instrumentalities for arresting criminals, and that the attempt to do it would only
involve them in criminations and reenminations and broils among themselves.  They
said, however, that if their agents called upon the military to aid them in arresting
evil-doers, the Indians would not object.  This reply is not unreasonable.
The commissioners are glad to be able to report, as the result of their councils with
the Indians of Red Cloud agency on this point, that they resolved to make up a list of
all depredations which they know to have been made by their people upon the whites,
which list they propose to forward to their Great Father, with the request that damages be paid out of the money belonging to them.  The commission advise that their
agents be instructed to follow up all cases of murder and other depredations by the
Indians, but that in the use of the troops they should be governed by the greatest
possible caution, and that they shall carry out the provisions of Article I of the Treaty
of 1868.  This reads as follows:
"Treaty ~vith Sioex b~dians, 29th April, 1868.
"ARTICLE I.
"Fr~m this day forward all war between the parties to this agreement shall forever
cease.  The Government of the United States desires peace, and its honor is hereby
pledged to keep it.  The Indians desire peace, and they now pledge their honor to
maintain it.
"If bad men~among the whites, or among other people subject to the authority of the
* Upon further consideration, the last point was given up, so far as Red Cloud agency was concerned,
for reasons that appear furtber on. 
United States, shall commit any wrong upon the person or property of the Indians, the
United States will, upon proof made to the agent and forwarded to the Commi~sionee
of Indian Affairs at ~Vashington City, proceed at once to cause the offender to br
arrested and punished according to the laws of the United States, and also re-imburse
the injured person for the loss sustained.
"If bad men among the Indians shall commit a wrong or depredations upon the person or property of any one, white, black, or Indian, sui~ect to the authority of tlie
United States, and at peace therewith, the Indians herein named solemnly agree that
they will, upon proof made to their agent and notice by him, deliver up the wrong-doer
to the United States, to be tried and punished according to its laws; and in case they
willfully refuse so to do, the person injured shall be re-imbursed for his loss from the
annuities or other moueys due or to become due to them nuder this or other treaties
made with the United States.
"And the President, on advising with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, shall prescribe such rules and regulations for ascertaining damages under the provisions of this
article as in his judgment may be proper.
"But no one sustaining loss while violating the provisions of this treaty or the laws
of the United States shall he r&imhursed therefor."
It became apparent in our councils and informal conversations with the Indians that
they considered that their liberty to kill is restrained only so far as white men are
concerned, and that they have no adequate conception of the fact that marauding expeditious against Pawnees, Poncas, &c., are displeasing to the Great Father. They
affected great surprise when told that the massacre of the Pawnees last snmmer horrifled their friends at the East.
Your commi~sioners suggest that their agents be specially instructed to inform them
that these and all~other Indians are the Great Father's children.
The third proposal of the commission touches a right which the Indians hold very
dear, and it was hardly expected that it wonid meet with a favorable reply, and it did
not.
J~nt the privilege of hunting upon the Republican Fork and of roaming in the unceded land north of the Platte is fraught with evil. It keeps active in the Indians
their wild and roving habits. It removes them for a considerable time from the good
influences with which the Government is seeking to surround them on their reservation. It is the only just pretext which they have for crossing their boundary-line into
the territory of the whites, and is every year the occasion of murders perpetrated
either by Indians upon white men or by white men upon Indians. The shocking massacre of Pawnees about nine months ago would never have occurred but from the fact
that the perpetrators were off for a hunt on the Republican Fork. The commission
believe the right in question to be the source of a large proportion of the alarms from
Indians which periodically run over parts of our western country, and of a great part
of the irritation which exists to so lamentable an extent between the Indians and the
border whites. The United States, as the guardian of these Indians, should deny them
hereafter this harmful right, and could afford to make its surrender less unpalatable
by making them a handsome present of blankets, Indian cloth, ticking, and blue
drilling.
The fourth proposition of the commission, viz, that the Indians should assent to the
running of the Nebraska line, was not very acceptable to them, but no warm oppositioii was offered to it. The coin mission are of the opinion that, if the Indians are intbruied through their agents, before the appearanee of the surveyors, of their object,
the survey may be undertaken this summer without increasing the danger of hostilities. Tlie party should be acconipanied either by an escort of soldiers, or better, by
a paid escort of friendly Indians. A survey will probably make it apparent, however,
that the Nebraska line runs far north of what the Iiidian~ suppose to be tlie southern
boundary of their reservation. It is unfortunate that the treaty of 1568 determined
the southern limits of the reservation by an imaginary line. An Ii~dian cannot understand what this is. Extravagant claims, or, at the best, miscoiiceptiou, are the natural
and certain result.
The fifth point brought up by the commission, the location of agencies, is perhaps
the most important and far-reaching in its iiifluences of then all. It seems to your
comniission that the tinie has come when a general plan fur the location of agencies
should be adopted, which shall embrace the whole Sioux Nation, and that the location
of agencies shall no longer be governed, as it has been of necessity often in the past,
by nierely special, temporary, or local considerations. The comnilasion were in hopes
that the Indians at both agencies could be induced to consent to the removal of their
agelicies to any points which your commissioners should desire, and that thus they
would be at liberty not only to map out, but to put into effect, a general plan for the
location of the agencies for all the Indians who are not now upon the Missouri, or cannot be advantageously located there. There seemed sufficient reason for removal in
the fact that the Whetstone agency is situated in a region of country where agriculture, to which it is the policy of the Government to turn the attention of the people, 
812
is simply out of the question; and that the Red Cloud agency is located very near to,
and perhaps eveu south of, the southern line of ti~e Sioux reservation. The comu)issiou, however, found the Indians very much oppose(i to removal, and this opposition
in the case of Red Cloud's people seemed so reasonable that the commission did not
feel that they were justified in insisting on their removal. It is only eight months
since these people were removed, much against their will, from a locality still farther
south. The present site of their agency was chosen by an authorized commission who
judged, npon the best information then to be had, that the selected location was north
of the southern line of the reservation. This site is a beautiful one, and offers more
advantages in the way of timber, water, and arabic laud than any which can be found
within fifty miles. And, flu ally, considerable expense has been jucurred in erecting a
large stockade and a number of agency-buildings.
The case is far different, however, with the Whetstone agency, forty miles northeast
of Red Cloud ageucy, on the White Earth River. It is situated in the midst ()f an
ntterly barreu a'id repulsive regio0~. It was placed there without authority. Wood
is scarce. The water is inferior.  The land is either covered by a very shallow soil or
ntterly denuded of it. The bottom-lands of the White Earth River, and the bottomlands of all the creeks in the neighborhoo~l of the agency, are so contracted that their
practical value amounts to nothiug. And, finally, the agency is at a great distance
(from ~25 to 2S0 miles) from any point of supply, existing or possible, on any route of
river or railroad transportation. The site is thus as devoid of any practical advantages as it is of any feature that can attract the eye.
If it were the policy of the Government to let Indian life drift along as it may, nutil
it accomplishes by its own blindness and folly its fiuM extinction, or if the policy
were based upon the principle that all efforts to turn the energies of the Indian toward
self-support are futile, and that, therefore, one place is as good for them as another, the
agency might well remain where it is. But if it is desired to place these Indians where
agricultural effort may reasonably be required of them, where the large number of
whites and half-breeds, who are incorporated with them, (numbering, perhaps, five
hundred souls,) will have an opportunity to improve their condition, and where
respectable men, with respectable families, will be willing to conie as employ~s and
teachers, change is essential. It should be made with expedition, too. A large
population of half-breeds is growing up aniong the in iii utter ignorance of the simplest elements of education-intellectual, moral, and religions. Educational and missionary efforts, ~hich they earnestly desire and for which they have subscribed
some hundreds of dollars, have been delayed year after year, and are practically
impossible as long as the present unsatisfactory condition of affairs continues. Moreover, the Government can hardly erect suitable winter-quarters for the military
force stationed for the protection of this agency until a permanent location has been
selected. The comuiission found little dilliculty in persuading two of the three bands
of which the Lower Brules are composed to take their view of the case, and to consent
to accompany them in search of a suitable location. Indeed, many of them were quite
ardent in representing that those of the Indians who were desirous of beginning to
plant were held in a part of their country where this course was an impossibility, and
where they were removed some four or five miles from wood by the selfish opposition
of one of the chiefs (Spotted Tail) and his band. The daims and conceit of this chief
know no bounds, and being himself settled, with his baud, upon Bordeaux Creek,
where, having wood and water and receiving rations from the Government, he lives at
ease, he persistently opposed all the efforts of your commissioners toward the selection
of a site for the agency. As his influence towers above that~of all others, the comm ission did not dare travel through the country against his will, and there was no course
left to them, and those who were ready to accompany them in seeking a site for the
agency, but to succumb.
He pursued a similar course in reference to several of the other propositions of the
commission. It was in vain that they urged upon him, day after day, that the Great
Father was resolved that the people should be counted. T he Corn baud and the Loafer
band, constituting about half the people, consented immediatdy; but Spotted Tail
first refused and then prevaricated, and the commission were obliged to leave without
accomplishing this object of their errand. They are of the opiiiion that the time has
come for decisive measures, and that one man and his band should no longer be permitted to breed a spirit of resistance among the people and retard their progress. They
recommend that the agent be instructed to desist immediately from issuing rations to
any band which has not permitted itself to be registered, and to refuse them rations
until they submit, and that measures be taken to insure that the military force at the
agency is sufficient to support him in carrying out these instructions.
They also recomnien~ that this same commission be sent out again, and be provided
with sufficient cavalry force to protect them in searching for a suitable site for an
agency. They have reason to think that such a cours~ would exert a most wholesome
influence, by showing these people that they must acquiesce in the demands of the
Government, and that it would not lead to war. 
813
The commission have reason to believe that a suitable site for an agency may be
found farther down the White Earth River, either at the mouth of ~ig White Clay,
about two hundred miles from the Missouri, at the mouth of Wounded Knee Creek,
one hundred and eighty-five miles from that river, or near the South Fork of the White
Earth, about one hundred and twenty miles from the Missouri.
The commission are not prepared, with their present information, to recommend the
removal of the agency to the banks of the Missouri.  Such a site would be desirable
were economy in furnishing supplies and ease of military occupation the only desiderata; but the good of the Indians the commission holds to be a matter of supreme
concern.  So far as the commission could learn, the only land on the Missouri available for the occupancy of the Brul~s is that formerly occupied by them at the mouth of
Whetstone Creek. Its extent is represented as very limited and entirely uneanal to
the wants of a large body of Indians whose energies are to be directed to farming. The
supply of timber is very insufficient. The land lies opposite to a strip occupied by ranchmen, who live largely by traffic in whisky, and who, when the Indians were located at
the mouth of Whetstone Creek, some years aUo, flooded their camp with whisky, and
made it snch a scene of riot and bloodshed t%at the people even yet speak of it with
horror.  Even the presence of the military failed, it is represented, to suppress this
traffic. It is an evil, it is to be feared, which no precautions could prevent at that spot
among a body of Indians in which the white and half-breed element is as largely represented as it is among these Brul~s.
PERMANENT HOME FOR THE SIOUX.
A great part of the Sioux reservation is an utterly barren district. The arable land
embraced within it will not be snfficient for the wants of half the population when
they have given themselves to agriculture. Even where the soil is good, a crop cannot
be raised more than one year out of three, on account of ravages of grasshoppers and
bail-storms, and the extreme dryness of the climate. Their reservation is thus a discoura gin g place for beginners in agricultnre.  Some of those of the Sioux who are
making efforts in farming (for example, some of the Santees) are anxious to move to
the Indian Territory. If good land is at the disposal of the Government in that Territory, the commission recommend that measures be taken for the gradual removal thither
of all Sioux Indians who may be willing to emigrate.  The Great Sioux reservation
should be nsed as a place for taming the Sioux and training them for the occupation of
the Indian Territory as their home.
PROMISE OF GUNS.
The commission found that the Indians of Red Cloud agency had been laboring under
the impression that Commissioners Brunot and Kemble had, last year, made them, on
behalf of the Government, a definite promise of guns. Indians base firm hopes on any
semblance of a foundation.  The evidence shows that those commissioners made no
such promise, but merely expressed themselves in favor of giving the Indians a certain
number of guns, and promised to use their influence in favor of it. Your commissioners
nre led to this conclusion by the testimony of military officers who were present, as well
as by that of one at least of the interpreters.
HOARDING OF AMMUNITION.
It appears from the statements of the traders at Red Cloud and Whetstone agencies,
herewith sent, that the whole amount of trade during the three months beginning
December 1, a time when the largest number of Indians was present at these agencies,
was $37,224.59. The amount of amniunition sold to whites and Indians during the
same time was $1,416.90, or less than one-thirteenth of the entire trade.
During these months the number of Indians present was variously estimated from
20,000 to 25,000.  If we take the less number as most likely to be correct, there would
bave been less than five thousand men, old enongh to bear arms, present at both agencies. Deducting the old and the sick and those not owning arms, three thousand is
probably the number actually buying ammunition. The amount purchased by each
individnal, therefore, was less than one-half dollar in value.  The small quantity the
purchasers would i~eceive for that sum, owing to the high rates charged by the traders,
would seem to show conclusively that no large quantity could have been hoarded.
And if any individual belonging to hostile bands has purchased more largely, it has
been probably for distribution when he should arrive at his own camp. This would
niake the quantity so smali that another use than the killing of game could hardly
have been intended.  It does not appear that the demands iiiade by Indians for permission to purchase ammunition have been larger than in previous years or than is
usual.
ADMINISTRATION OF RED CLOUD AND WIiETSTONR AGENCIES.
The commissioners arrived at Red Cloud agency Sunday morning, March 15, and on
Monday began their investigations into the condition of aftairs there, and continued
them daily until March 18, when they drove to Whetstone agency, and began a simi 
814
lar examination there.  They retnrned to Red Cloud agency Friday, March 27, and
resumed their inv9stigations, concluding them the following Tuesday, when they resumed their exam~nation at the ~Vhetstone agency. They judged that the best basis
for conducting their inquiry into the administration of the agents was the allegations
made against them in a report presented to the Board of Indian Commissioners by Mr.
Samuel Walker, who visited the agencies last November, which report was referred
by the Department to this commission. Copies of this report were placed in the bands
of J. J. Saville and E. A. Howard, agents, and they were severally called upon to respond to its statements and the charges against their administration of their offices
to be inferred therefrom. Their responses were subjected to a searching examination
by the commission, and the truth of their statements ascertained. Wherever witnesses were referred to in proof of their assertions, they all (or a sufficient number of
them) were summoned, and their testimony taken nuder oath. Wherever books or
papers were quoted or appealed to, they were examined by the commissioners personally. The responses of the agents are submitted as part of this report. Testimony
taken in this connection is filed herewith. It became apparent to the commission, in
the course of their inquiries, that some of the affidavits which seemed to reflect most
upon the character of the agents were such partial statements, that they amounted to
a culpable suppresslo veri; and that some of the testimony, on which were based the
most damagiug attacks upon their administration, was the testimony of a well-known
deserter and thief.
Facts cited to the discredit of the agents, which were gleaned at the agencies during
their absence, and which they then had no opportnnity to account for, were, when
brought to their notice,, satisfactorily explained; practices which were irregular, were
shown to have been unavoidable in the peculiar circumstances in which these agents
were placed; and transactions which at first sight seemed suspicious, and to which a
criminal intent has been imputed, were shown to have been characterized by entire
good faith, to have been carried on in broad daylight, and, where not justifiable, to
have been not wrong-doing, but the mistakes of men new in an office where, peculiarly,
the incumbent can learn only from experience.
In regard to one transaction, which is not, perhaps, sufficiently explained in the
reply of Agent Saville, viz, the enrollment and pay of F. D. Appleton, clerk, during a
period when he was not actually discharging the duties of his office, the conclusion
reached by the commission is as follows:
The appointment of F. D. Appleton was made in good faith, and from the date on
which his name appears on the pay-roll. The same was in good faith accepted by him
by telegraph. He was to have started immediately for the agency to assume the
duties of his office, and was only detained by an accident, (broken leg.) The agent,
daily expecting his arrival, retained his name on the pay-roll. The duties of his position were discharged by the agent and ernploy~s of the agency, and no other person
received compensation as clerk up to the time of his assuming the duties of his office
in person. The transaction involved irregularities, but the commission do not find
that any fraud was intended by the agent.
The commission indorse the replies of the agents in all their material points, and
give as the result of their prolonged investigation into the points touched upon in Mr.
Walker's report, and the result also of their intercourse with the agents, and their
personal observations of men and things at the agencies, the entire relief of Agents
Saville and Howard from the suspicions cast upon their characters and their administrations, and the earnest conviction that these gentlemen have performed their duties
during a time of great trial and in the midst of great embarrassments with energy,
honesty, and entire fidelity to the interests of the Government and the Indians, and
that they deserve the confidence and commendation of the Department.
The commission are of opinion that the service of the Department would be improved if the following instructions were issued, viz:
That all beef and other provisions shall be issued by orders upon an issue-clerk, and
that these orders should pass through the agent's office in order to their appearance
upon the books of the agency.
That agents shall keep all their original orders upon their issue-clerks, in order that
they may have at hand the means of satisfying the inquiries of inspectors and other
authorized inquirers.
That the present custom, by which departing agents carry all the papers of the
agency away with them, and thus leave their offices without a history, and their successors destitute of any guides in their new duties, shall be henceforth forbidden, and
that these papers shall he the property of the Department.
OVERISSUE OF BEEF.
In regard to one matter, which has come before the commission in several papers
and which has been the occasion of a good deal of public animadversion, viz, th~
overissue of beef, the commission reports that it is unquestionable that there has
been overissue. It is freely admitted by both the agents; they have reported it to the 
815
Department from time to time. The commission believes it to have been unavoidable. In the first place, the Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies are but forty miles
apart, and there is no doubt that the same Indians frequently drew rations at both
agencies, an evil which was remediless as long as registration was impossible. In the
second place, it appears that at Red Cloud agency the supply of other provisions was
short, and extra beef was consequently issued, as reported in Agent Saville's letter to
the Department, of December 29, 1873. In the third place, the testimony is abundant
and unanimous to the point that these agencies, always the refuge in winter of northern
Indians who have connected themselves with no agency in particular, were last winter
the resort of a larger number than usual; that they nuited wit~ the Indians belonging to the agencies in making the grossest misrepresentations as to their numbers, and
basing on them extravagant demands for rations; that they thwarted all attempts of
the agents to arrive at a true estimate of the amount of food they were entitled to;
that a census could not bave been made except at the peril of the agents' lives; and
that the agents, failing in their efforts to number the people, always strove to cut
down the issue to the lowest amount possible, and that their issues were generally far
less than the Indians would have received had their e~orbitant demands been fully
complied with.
There is, however, no evidence whatsoever that more beef was issued than was actually nsed, either by im~ediate consumption, or by being dried and laid by in store;
and rumors to the effect that the issue of beef was so excessive last winter that large
quantities were left to rot, the Indians taking only the hides, are, the commissioners
believe, entirely without fonndatioi~ in fact.
WASTE OF FLOUR.
The commission saw many evidences that there has been more or less waste of flour.
This has not arisen, so far as the commission was able to discover, from an issue exceediug that authorized by the Department, but partly from the fact that wild Indians
are not fond of flour, and are apt to neglect its use, especially when the supply of beef
is as abundant as it has necessarily been at these agencies; partly from the fact that
some of the flour issued had been long on hand and had become musty, and partly from
the fact that large quantities of flour, which the present agent found on hand when he
entered upon his oflice last June, being utterly unfit for use, were dealt out to the
Indians to be fed to their ponies. The substitution of corn for a part of the flour supply
is very acceptable to the Indians, and meets with the approval of the commission.
VISIT OF SPOTTED TAIL TO CHEYENNE.
Such a visit is likely to be suggested and to be made under the influence of designing white men, and is Mways more or less to be suspected.
As appears from the report of the commission, under the head of "supplies," their
quality is not such as to justify the complaints of Spotted Tail.  Those familiar with
wild Indians know that complaint is always the burden of their talk in an interview
with those who are supposed to be in communication with the Great Father.
As to which of the two routes should be used in transporting freight overland to
Whetstone agency, whether that from Cheyenne or that from Fort Randall the commission gained no information which enables it to express a decided preference for one
route over the other. If the cost via Fort Randall is less than via Cheyenne, the commission knows of no disadvantages under which the former labors which should give
the preference 10 the other.
They think that the proposition that Spotted Tail's people, or those legally incorporated with them, should have the privilege of doing their own freighting, worthy of
attention. If their agent is prepared to superintend it, and to make proper arrangements for the faithful discharge of the service, the plan has manifest advantages, and
the commission recommend that it be tried.
SUPPLIES, THEIR INSPECTION, QUALITY, ETC.
Your commission are of opinion that a due regard to the interests of the Governmeat and the Indians demands that all packages consigned to agents for the Indians
in fulfillment of contracts should, without exception, bear the brand which marks
then as the property of the Indian Department, and also the brand of the inspector,
indicating that they have passed his inspection.
Their exaniination of flour in an unloaded car at the Cheyenne store-house, and of
supplies in that store-house and at the agencies, revealed the fact that this branding is
frequently oniitted. Many packages bore neither brand.
They noticed that barreled pork is supplied, to a degree, at Whetstone agency instead of bacon. The supply of the latter article at both Red Cloud and Whetstone
agencies was exhausted, ~o that the commission was unable to judge of its quality.
They examined the pork, however, and found it sweet and good.
The commi5si()n was not furnished with samples, and, therefore, could not determine
whether the supplies were up to the standard required by the contract. They exam 
816
ined, however, the flour, sugar, coffee, and other supplies on band at both agencies
and in the store-house at Cheyenne.  They were all of fair quality.  Both the agents
agreed that it would be better to provide baking-powders instead of saleratus, as the
Indians do not know how to use the latter properly.
The commission took particular pains to inquire into the quality and weight of the
beef furnished by the coutractor during the curren# fiscal year.  The testimony of
many witnesses, and the personal observation of the members of the commission, con
vinced them that the cattle have been remarkably excellent in quality, size, and condition, and that their average weight has been, on the whole, considerably above that
required by the contract.  The average weight required by the terms of the contract
for the six months beginning July 1, 1873, was eight hundred pounds, while the catt~e
actually delivered at Red Cloud agency during the time regarding which the incumbency of the present agent enabled him to testify weighed on an average as follows:
First six months.
Date.                           No. of   Average  TotaL
liea~    weight.
August 8                                                   20  1,050     21,000
August15                              -~                  353  1,010    386,830
September 1                                               483 1, 040   502, 320
September 15                                              Sit 1, 056   589, 050
October 1                                                 647 1, 063   687, 761
Oct~ber 15                                                633 1, 043   660, 219
November 1                                                290    993   257, 970
November 15                                              41(1    963   396, 470
December 1                                                507    975   494, 497
December 15                                               508    946   480, 568
The average weight required by contract during the six months beginning January
1, 1874, was one thousand and fifty pounds, while the average weight delivered was as
follows, viz:
Second six months, vi' to date.
Date.                           No. of   Average  Total.
bead.    weight.
January 1                                          -      312    904    282,310
January 11                                                330    881   290, 856
January 21                                                340 1, 002   340, 908
February 2                                                356    993   352, 508
February 15                                               300  1,016    305,064
March7                                                    350  1,863    372,050
March23                                                   271  1,053    285,425
These latter figures are below those required by the contract, hut not as much below
as those for the first six months are above. The whole average has been in advance of
that which the contract demanded.
The terms of the contract for the Whetstone agency are the same as those for the
Red Cloud, viz, an average of eight hundred pounds for the six months beginning July
1, and an average of one thousand and fifty pounds for the succeeding six months.
The average weights actually delivered have been as follows:
First six months.
Date.                             No. of Average  Total.
bead.  weight.
July12                                                    322    942    303,324
July 23                                                   725 1, 048   759, 800
August15                                                  414  1,052    467,088
8eptember 1                                               460 1, 858   483, 000
September 15                                              530 1, 085   532, 650
October 15                                           - 1, 056 1, 047 1,105, 632
November 25                                               655    950   622, 250
December 12                                               355    915   324, 825 
817
Second six months, np to date.
January 20                                              401 940. 38   377, 092
February 4                                               19~ 959      189, 878
February 13                                             251 1, 01Q 80 254, 207
March19                                                 270 1,028.70   277,749
The Thtte,- of the contract has not, as thus appears, been complied with at either
agency, and the commission supposes that the contractor is liable for damages for noncompliance.
The i~ind of the commission, under these circumstances, is expressed in a letter of
Agent Howard of March 26, and their indorsement of it given herewith, as follows.
Whether the contractor will accept this col1tproi~~ise, the commission are not informed.
"`VII ET8TON E Ac~~xc y, DAKOTA TEll RITORY,
Marc it 26, 1874.
"S~~: I had tlie honor in my letter of the 16th instant to refer to the question of the
ft~t,1re supply of beef for thiS agei)cy.
"I desire herein fi~rther to state that in consequence of the niisettled state of tlie
coni~try hereabout, it is difficult to get beef-cattle here of the proper description to
accord with tI e original terms of the contract for this season.
"Siiice receiving Department letter of February 13, I have ~eceived oiie lot for issne
which does not weigh up to the requirenients of that letter.
"ihe contractor states that they were driven here from a distance of 80 utiles with
only one night's rest, thereby losing much of their weight, and that liis herds haviiig
t,f late been fiequently disturbed, they have niaterially fallei~ off in weight.
"He has delivered at this agency, from July 1, 1873, to February 13, 1874, inclusive,
5,397 head, weighing 5,419,746 pounds, averaging 1,004.21 poniids, an(i thereforc he has
exceeded the averare weight actually requireti by the contract.
"I respectfully ask permission to receive and receipt for cattle weighing a less avcrage than 1,050 pounds, which I think he should be allowed to deliver.
`-On 19th March, he delivered here 270 head, weighing 277,749 pounds, averau'iii'
1,0-29 hounds, which I request permission to receipt for at tliat weight.
Very respectfiilly, your obedient servant,
E. A. HOWARD,
Unitt'd 8tafrs Indion Agettt.
Hon. Co~IMISSIoNEa INDIAN AFFAIRS,
JVoshington, I). C."
"WIIET8T0NE Ac,~Ncv, DAKoTA TERRITORY,
"March 26,1874.
Siii: By the coi~tract the average weight of cattle, during the first six ~nonths or
the 6.~c~il year, was to be at least 800 pounds.  Evidence is abundant that the average
"`-as far in excess of this, say 1,000.
We think this fact a justification of leniency to tlle coiitractor if lie is not able to
fitruish cattle quite up to the average required dnriiig the last six nionths of the liscal
year.
"The evidence is sufficient that during the disturbances the contractor, by advice of
(~ciicral Ord, removed his cattle to the Platte, and iii consequence had to drive his cattle, at the tinie of the last issise, 80 uiiles without sufficient food and water. Their loss
iii weight under these circumstaiices must have been very considerable.  We believe
that, l~ut for the late disturbance, the cattle fi~rnished March 19 would have averaged
1,0k0;po.unds.
e indorse tlie statement of tlie fbregoing letter of Agent Howard, and r~coininend
tit at the shortness of average weight during January, February, and March be overlooked, provided the contractor will furnish beef required for Whetstone and RetI
Cloud agencies over and above amount required by contract, at contract pHees.  We
also recommend that the average weight of cattle to be furnished after thss date shall
be itot less titan 900 pounds.
Very respectfully,
"WILLIAM H. HARE.
"FRANCIS H. SMITH.
"J. D. BEVIER.
"SAMUEL D. HINMAN.
lion. CoMMISSIONER INDIAN AFFAIRS."
52 I F 
818
Your comn~issioners beg respectfully to close their report with the following digest
()f their recommendations and conclusions:
REcOMMENDATIONS.
That the agents at the Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies, and at any agencies
hereafter established aniong the wilder Sioux, be supported by a niilitary force, which
should, however, except under extraordinary circumstances, be at a short distance
from the agency and not immediately adjoIning.  The relation of the agent and the
toiumauding military officer should be definitely determined.  That an agency he provided for the Northern Sioux, and that, to this end, they be refi~sed rations at the
existing agencies, and a delegation of them be ~ndnced to visit ~Vashingtou, and that
the location of the agency be~in the neighborhood of the Black llills.
T hat agents be instructed to carry out the provisions of Article I of the Treaty of
1568.
That the northern line of Nebraska be run this summer.
That a liheral presellt of blankets, Indian cloth, ticking, and blue drilling be made
the Upper Brule's and ()gallallas for the surrender of their right t() hunt 011 the Republican and to roam over the neutral ground south of the reservation, and that they be
informed that this right is withdrawn.
That the agent at ~Vhetstone ageilcy be instructed not to issue rations to any baud
which reflises to be counted, and that your coiiiiiiissioners be requested to find a suitable place for the agency, and iliat both have niilitary protection.
That all beef and other provisions be issued by orders on the issue-clerk, which
orders should pass through the office in order to their allpearance on the books  that
these orders be filed away for safe-keeping, and the books and papers of the agency be
the property of the Governuient aiid iiot of the ageiit.
That the Indians of N\~hetstone agency may be permitted to take the contract for
trei gliti n g.
That brands of i~nited States Iiidiau I)epartmcnt and of inspector be i~laced upon
all packages consigiied to agents iiiider contract.
Recomniendation as tii beef for balance of the current year.
That, Indians beiiig their own worst enemies, being h(~nt on a mode (~f life that is
fatal to their own good, and, iiiiireover, rarely understaii~ling the lileallilig of treaties,
and mi~re rarely still rememheri'ig the obligations therein l;iid upoli them, a just ond
gencious dcclaiyitiou l)y th( (~iited States &or~r~~ineut of`irhat they ii(ii5t (to is a better mode
of dc~tliiig u~ith theiii than negotiatioli or treaty-making, wherever the Governuient is
in a position to pursue the foriiier course.
That a systeili should be iiiaiignratetl for tlie renioval of the Sioux, as soon as practicable, to a climate aiid soil less discouraging to the eflbrts of beginliers in husbandry.
That the Sioux be informed that depredations on other Indians displease the Presidcii t.
CONCL~ SION.
The l:ite distiirl~aiices are iiot indicative of preparations for war.
The present policy is acconii'ilishiiig the results ~lesired.
Coiuniissioiiers I~rnnot and l~einble (lid not promise these Indians guns.
Removal of the I;iiper Bi~nles to the NIisso~iri is of doubtful wisdoni.
Ainuinnition has not been hoarded for war.
Agents Saville and Howard are exonerated, and deserve confidence and conimendatiiin.
Beef has been overissued, biit the agents were helpless to avoid it.
Beef has not been issued in such quantities that it has been left to rot.
Flour has been wasted; causes given.
Spotted TaiPs coniplaints at Cheyenne were not justifiable.
Supplies of all kinds are wholesome and of at least fair quality.
Submitted on behalf of all the commissioners.
I aa~, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
WILLIAM H. HARE,
Chaii~man.
F. H. S~IITIi,
J.D. BEVIEl?,
SAMUEL D. HINMAN,
WiLLIAM H. HAi?E,
Cammissioners.
`v~Sui~GTox, D. C., April`22, 1~74. 
S19
INSPECTOR BEVIER'S REPORT.
Commissioner Smith to respector Bevier.
MARcH 10, 1874.
SIR: I send indosed herewith copies of report and documents made by one Samuel
~Valker, who appears to have been deputed by the Board of Commissioners to make
inquiries into reported irregularities at Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies.
I desire you to niake full investigation as to matters treated of in these papers, and
submit' it with your report of these agencies.
Very respectfiilly, your obedient servaiit,
EDW. P. SMITfI,
Commissione~~.
J. D. BEvIER, Esq.,
United States hidian Inspector, Bed CThed agency,
(via Cheyenne, JVyoming.)
TIlE REPORT.
`VASilINGTON, D. C., October 23, 1874.
SIR: I have the honor herewith to submit report of my visit and inspectioii of the
Red Cl~~ud agenc~, in charge of J. J. Saville, United States Iiidian n~ent.
I arrived in Cheyenne on the 18th of September, and remained there five days, waiting the return of the commission, wilo were daily expected in from the Whetstone
agency, that I might see them, learn tlie result of their uiission, aiid return with their
conveyance to those a~encies.
They returned on the 22d, and by this tiiue another opportunity presented itself to
go to Red Cloud via Sidney. This I preferred, as it gave ine an opportunity to go over
tlie road from Sidney to Red Clou~l. and thus enable me to judge of the comparative
nierits of the two routes, viz, from Sidney, and from Cheyenne to Red Cloud and Whetstone agencies. Moreover, it gave me an opportunity to take tlie herd on my way, and
see it.
While at Cheyenne, niy attention was called to the flour en roete to Red Cloud.  I
found ten car-load~ had been received aiid forwarded to the agency.  Mr. Palmer, storekeeper at Cheyenne, informed me that at the time the flour arrived there was no inspector to examine it, and, as the agent was in need of it, he had forwarded it on to
flie agency, keeping samples of each car4oad.  Those samples he showed me, which
we conipared with the coiitract-sample, and thought they all caine up to the standard.
Of the last or tenth car-load, Mr. Palmer showed me a sample which compared favoral~ly with all the rest as well as the coiitract-sainple; but of said tenth car-load
twenty-three sacks remained behind accidentally.  At this time Colonel Long was
appointed inspector.  He examined those tweiity-three sacks, and condemned them.
I examined those twenty-three sacks, an~1 found the quality inferior not only to the
contract-sample, but inferior to the sample which Mr. Palmer gave me as the saniple
of tlie wl~ole of that car-load.  I regarded Colonel Long's action in condemning it as
proper, as the quality was greatly inferior; hilt as those twenty-three sacks re mained
in Cheyenne simply for the want of trai~sportation, the last wagoi~ being loaded to its
fill capacity, I could not but regard those twenty-three sacks as a fiur represeiitation
)f the whole car-load.  I cannot accoun~ for the discrepancy in quality between the
twenty-three sacks and the sample retained by Store-keeper Palmer.
To pursue this flour-question to the eiid: I feund aiiotlier discrepancy which I cannot explain.`P he ten samples of the ten car-loads kept by Store-keeper Palmer at
Cheyeiiiie were all full up, in my judguient, t) the standard, while the flour at the
agency was mainly inferior.  In coinp;~ny with Mr. Roberts, the clerk, and Mr. Roland,
watchman and chief herder, both agency employcs, we examined and compared the
dour ill the warehouse with the contract-saniple, and found four Out of five inferior.
Query: Did the flour deteriorate in going froni Cheyenne to flie agency?  So much
for quality.
Mr. Roberts, the clerk before iiientioned, says ill at, upon handling the flour, his
`itteution was attracted to certaii~ sacks, which looked small aiid felt light, and, in con~~queiice of their siispiciiii~s appearance, he was induced to weigh theni, when he
1)011(1 some weighed 77 pounds, some 84, some 94, and flie others 98.
I weighed half a dozei~ or more sacks, one of each different bnjnd, aiid they all
weighed 98.  Mr. Roberts thought it unnecessary to pursue ((Or weighing an further,
`is lie was quite conftdent he liad issued all the light sacks.  W hat pr~~portion were
light lie liad no idea.  All receipted for as fill weight.  Sin ce niy arrival iii this city I
learii by letter that  five more car-liiads have arrived in Cheyeniie, aiid pla9ed in
~lr. I' reiicli's warehouse, and soiiie out ()t each car ~ ciglied, the a~ rage being S~
l)()uiids 11 the sack." 
820
On tl~e 23d of September 1 returned to Sidney, and on the morning of the 24th started
from Sidney to Red Cldiid.  On the evening of that day crossed the North Platte at
Chimney Rock. The next morning passed through the herd of 10,000 bead, spread over
a surface of fifteen miles square.  The next night arrived at Re~l Cloud; time, two
days; distance, 120 miles.  In this connection, it is hut fair to say that the herd, spoken
of as the best ever brought into the State of Nebraska, I~found, as far as I could judge,
as good as could be, nearly uniform in size, steers said to be from four to eight years
of age, all in good condition. There were a few cows, but as they are sold by weight,
and always preferred by the Indians, I know of no objection to them.
TIlE ROAD
from Sidney to Red Cloud is from forty to fifty miles less, and to Whetstone from
seventy-five to eighty miles less.  The distances are as follows: Fr~~m Cheyenne,
via Fort Laramie, to Red Cloud, one hundred and seventy miles; via Old Red Cloud,
one bundred and sixty; from thence to Whetstone, forty more. From Sidn~v to Red
Cloud and Whetstone you would continue the sanie road to tiie Niobrara, one hundred miles.  There they would diverge, the one to Red Cloud, twenty miles; the
other to Whetstone, twenty-five niiles.  Thus it will be seen that the distance to
Red Cloud is one-quarter less, and to Whetstone more tbau one-third less, and less
than half as far as from Fort Randall.  Besides this saving of land-carriage, there is a
saving of over one hundred niiles by rail. The country from Sidney is quite level,
with more water, grass, and fuel, although timber is scarce 01) all tlie roads; and, so
far as I can judge, there is less sand than from Cheyenne via Old Red Cloud, the road
usually traveled by freighters.  There is every facility for building a store-house at
Sidney of sutbelent capacity for both agencies, where one store-keeper would suffice.
I would respectfully reconimeiid that the road receive due coi~sideration, as it would
prove a great saving in distance and expense. The only drawback is the crossing the
North Platte.  Yet the herders at this 1)OiOt, Chimney Rock, and those familiar with it,
claim that the crossing there is as good as at the old l?ed Cloud crossing.
On my arrival at the agency, the first thing that attracted niy atteiition, after examining into the flour, was the Appleton contract.  I found no contract actually entered
into, hut the basis for one clearly defined. Mr. Appleton had submitted his proposition to Agent Saville, which the agent had forwarded to your Office, asking your
permission to make a contract upon the terms therein contained, ai~d recommending
the same to your honor for approval, representin it
arrangement for the Government.            as the best and nioSt economical
The terms of Mr. Appleton were: For sawing lumber, Agent Saville foriiishing mill,
logs, and engineer, $14 per thousand, while the customary price under such circunistances is from $3 to $4; for cutting and laying shingles, the agent furnishing logs,
-mill, cut-off saw, shingle-machine, and engineer, $10 per thousand, while it was worth
from $2 to $3; for building sla~~ghter-hoiise alone, $150, while botli slaughter-house
and slaughter-pen is sublet for $180.  For other items and a niore full account of this
transaction, please see my letter accompanying the Appleton contract.
The private manner in which this contract was let, the relationship of the parties,
the exorbitant prices, the pains taken to exclude all coiiipetition, the looks, nianners,
and prevarication of the parties, developed during tlie investigation, left me no rooiii
to doubt tlie nature and character of the transaction.
I next pass to the purchase of oxen, cows,~wagons, &c., for the use of tl)e Iiidians.
In Agent Saville's letter-book I found a letter written to tlie honorable Comniissioner
of Indian Affairs, dated August 24, 1874, in which he says: "I ii accordance with your
letter of approval of June 16,1874, of my requisition of April 1, 1874, 1 have purchased
of D. J. McCann twenty yoke of Americaii oxen, four and five years old, at $150 per
voke, and twenty good Durhani cows at $60 per head, and one Durham hull at $100.
As this is to be a basis of a stock of cattle to be raised by the Indians, I have thought
it advisable to get the best grade of cattle in the market which was not classed as
fancy stock.  I have purchased these after careful inquiry as to the price of this class
of stock in Nebraska, Iowa, and Missouri, and I believe I have got them at as low a
price as they could be delivered at this agency. I have purchased them in open inarket, without advertising for proposals, for the reason that it was very desirable to get
them to the agency in time to get in hay, and break some land for spring crops before
too late in the season to do so. Also, several families are anxious to have houses.  I
wish to set them to hauling logs for their houses, in order to build theiii before cold
weather sets in.  In my action in this case I respectfully request your approval."
Upon reading this letter I reniarked, "I see you have been buying some stock for the
Indians.  Where are they?"  He answered, "No, that letter I put forth as a feeler.
They are not yet purchased." I also called his attention to a letter written by178;11]F. H.
Smith, secretary of the Board of Indian Commissioners, dated September 5, 1874, iii
which he reiterates, "I have the honor respectfully to acknowledge the receipt of you)
circular of April 10, 1874, &c. I have purchased twenty yoke of oxen, twenty cows, ten 
~21
wagons, and si~ breaking-plows for those who have undertaken to work this season,"
&c. I expressed my surprise, saying, "You have minutely described this stock, their
ages, blood, quality, and price, and I certainly supposed you had purchased them." He
replied, "McCann supposed he could purchase them of a party in Cheyenne, but come
to find out he could not."  I inquired if he had n~~t issued the vouchers for those cattle.
He said, "Yes."  I asked him where they were. He answered he had them and then, he
showed them me.  In dosed is a copy. They are dated August 20, 1874, for $6,247, and
says "that the account is correct and just; the stock actually purchased we,,re actually
necessary for the public service, and the price as low as could be procured.
On ~ny re~urn to Cheyenne, Mr. McCann informed me that he had the opportunity to
n'ake those purchases of a party near Cheyenne, but, thinking the price high, he had
left it open, hoping to make the purchase upon better tern~s elsewhere.  Finding himself unable to do so, he had concluded to take them.  It would seem to be time enough
to say they were purchased when the~- really were; to describe their quality when seen;
to state tlie price when ascertained; and to make, date, sign the vouchers when the
property was received.
The Indans provided for at this agency, as estimated by Agent Saville, are
Ogallall~s proper.. -.                                              7,000
Minnecoiijonx, San Arcs, and Unepapas..           1, 600
Northern Cheyennes                                                  2, 000
Northern Arapalioes.                                               1, 000
Total.....                                                     11,500
The Cheyeniies and Arapahoes, by act of Congress last winter, cannot be fed or draw
.-`i'nuities unless they niove south to the Indian Territory. They do not want to go.
I'liey say their people there are at war with the Governuient, and this is their old home.
They are willing to consolidate with the Sioux, and the Sioux are willing to have them
do so.  Can it not be done?
O~ERISSUE OF BF.EF.
Bcef is bein issued, and lias been for over three months past, in larger quantities
than usual per head.  Besides the ov(.'rissue per capita, there is a larger niiniber thaii
was estiniated for, rendering a deficiency certain, unless soiiie nicasures are taken to
arrest it.
CONSOLIDATION.
Tlic com'iiission who recently visited this and the Whetstone agency have returned,
aiid I iinderstaiid will recommend the consolidation of the two.  Most of the members
of that commission have consulted me in regani to it, and asked my co-operation.
These agencies are within forty miles of each other, both in the State of Nebraska, and
o,~t5ide of their reservation. This reservation is large and comparatively valueless.
(4razing, to so inc extent, may be carried on, but agricultural pursuits of any other
kind are out of the question.  I look upon both of these agencies as poor-houses for the
feeding of p~uper Indians, and as having no permaneney in their present location.
Besides, being in the State of Nebraska, no such population, either white or Indian,
can ever be self-sustaining there.  They all belong to the same family, and so near each
iither as to he in daily and hourly communication.  Every~~ing that occurs at Oii(
agency is immediately known at the other.  Every little inequality or difference of
managemelit at the o'ie is i~iimediately discussed at the other, giving rise to more or
less dissatisfaction. To-day Red Cloud Indians are getting more beef than Whetstone,
and a greater inequality will be seen when the annuities are distributed, when Whetstone will get the larger share.  Under one intelligent head these sources of irritation
would cease to exist, and uniformity of administration secured.
On the score of economy there wonH be considerable gain. The old buildings at
~Vhctstone, now in process of moving, are very poor, and would barely answer the
purposes df a subagency temporarily, while new and permanent buildings for a new
and pernianent agency would cost a large sum of money.  One store-house at Sidney,
with one store-keeper, would take the place of the two now in use, viz, at Rai~dall and
Cheyenne, together with their two sets of eniploy~s, and a saving of distance by laud
and rail of perhaps one hundred and sixty iiiiles.
Believing this project has its merits, I would respectfully commend it to your favorable consideration.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. D. BEVIER,
Hoii. E. P. SMITh,                           t~nited States Indian Inspectoi-.
(`onimissioner of Indian Ajfairs, tl~shington D. C. 
~22
AGENT SAVILLE'S REPLY TO WALKER'S REPORT.
To th~e honrn~abTh Board of htdian Commissioners:
In answer to the charges preferred against me by Mr. Samuel Walker, under date )f
December 6, or so much thereof as I ani advised by your bonorable body it is your wish
I should make answer to, I wonl~l most respectfully state and represent as follows,
to wit:
1st. To cbarge marl~ed number one I answer: That of tbe flour received by me as
United States Indian agent, all of it was not mnrked or braiided.  What proportion I
cannot say with any certainty.  Since I have been agent I have never been adviseil
what particular brands were necessary except the inspector's brand, and when in Washington I informed the commissioners that such braiid was wanting on some of the flour
delivered at this agency.
With reference to any of the flour being in single sacks, I am satisfied such was not
the case.
In regard to the character or quality of the flour, I have to say, I ii ave never beet)
~dvised what particular grade was required tinder the contract, tho~igh the flour
received and used by me was sweet, must have been made of good wheat, aiid w;)s
sufficiently good to give entire satisfaction for my own and the consu'0)ption of the
eniploy~s about the agency. In support of the foregoing, I would refer to B. F. Walters,
~Villiam Stokes, and Benjamin Tibbetts.
2d. In regard to charge number two I can only say I have no tucans of knowing the
exact distances referred to in such charge.  There are two roads, the shortest of which
I have traveled over, and should estimate the distatice by such route front Cheycuite to
Old Red Cloud to be from 95 to 100 miles, and from Cheyenne t() the New Red Cloud
from  1~0 to 190 miles.  Though ilte other is a much longer road, it is necessary at sonie
seasons to travel it.
3d. In answer to charge three I would say, the same is wholly nutrtie; that I atti
informed, and believe the same to be true, that the clerk`vtio receives the stores never
told Mr. Samuel Walker or other party that nothing is weighed or receipted front tlte
freight contractor, nor is it true that such is the case; everythitig so received is
wei~hed on delivery.  I never said I would not weigh, nor (lid thu party named by ~1r.
Walker tell hini that I made such a remark.  Iii support of this, I suggest the names
of uty receiving-clerks, B. F. Walters, Bt~njautin Tibbetts, and Joseph Bissonette.
4th. In answer to charge four I would say, the saute is wholly iii true, and to ue(~ative the same I refer to tity hooks; the testiiiiony of J. H. Bi~sler, to disprove that lie
ever ninde such statenient as is by ~Ir. ~Valker claimed to have bcen made; also evidence of Ge argo M. Busier.
5th. Answering charge five I say, it is true that utitil November 7 the beeves were
received by an average we ight, as iii) to that d:ite it was tite ottly way I had )f ascertaining the weight ot sucli beeves, but it is wholly utitrtie that tlie weight of the cattle
received by Tile was ascertained by weighing soilie of the largest cattle; but the truth
is that a fair aiid just average of cattle was selected for tlie pur~iose of ascertaining tlie
weight of tite number received.
This averaging was the practice until th~ scales were put up, which was dotte as S()01i
as practicable. In fact, I urged forward the putting up of tlie large scales with all di~patch. In support of the foregoing, please call the butchers, Betijamin Tibbetts, B. F.
Walters, and Joseph Bissonette.
6th. Iii answer to charge six I would say, it is true tlie issties of supplies are made
to chiefs`and headmen; it is also true that as to si)ine articles the issues were tuatle
with referettee to the aintiunt on lianil.  The reason of this was that sitice October I
have never had a supply of articles nit hattil stifilcietit to make a full issue of all; and
to satisfy the Indians for such defii~iency I have been conipelifit to be ni()re liberal in
aty issues of beef, of which I could coinmanil a su~tply at all titties  nor is it true ~hat
no record is kept of what is isstied, and ill regard to tlie foregititig I wit,iltl refer to B.
F. Walters, Joseph Bissonette, Tho~iias ~Ioiohan, and my itiotitlily reports for Septeniber and October.
7tli. In answer to charge, or rather argument, seveti, tt is dilfic nIt to respond, as no
specific charge is made, anil my aiiswer to charge six disposes of the facts upon which
the conclusions in number seven are based, t litigi iit nay be p roper ftr tat, to state that
all einploye{s should be, and are, fed froiti the supplies, as is alloweil, and so cli
rations accounted for.  Itt support of this, I refer to the records of tlie agency, lily
clerk, atid niany otheis.
Sth. In answer to charge eight, I ileity that tio rec~trds are kept of tit it ii til~er of
beeves issued; full atid co~nplete recitrds are~kept of all issues; in evitletice of which, I
rotor to the l)ooks ot tlie agency atid tite testitiioliy of uty clerk, B. I?. Walters.
9th. In aus'ver to charge iiiiie I`vo;tltl s~y, that tlie papers of tlie agency do not
show tliat there was on tite 1st of Oetttber ott hatid 841;2059;912;2084]17,914 pounds of beef, but; did sbow
on hand 1l~0()S pounds; that diii iii  that iiionth tlieie " Cit) tCcCi~ el (iii tite lust d~t~ of 
823
October 647 head, averaging 1,063 pounds each; and on the 15tli October 6:33 bead,
averagil0g 1,04:3 pounds each. That on the first day of October 1 did not have on band
60 bead of beeves, but only 11, for which receipts were given, which 11, added to 1,2~0,
would aniount to 1,291, of which I issued 1,212 head dunn  the month of October,
leaving 79 head, which I had on band on the 31st day of October, less 67 lost and killed
by Indians out of my herd with our authority, which loss was duly reported to the Del)artnlent by me. ~ly receipts were never false or fraudulent. I did receive the number of beeves i1~ October as above stated. There was an issue made on the 1st day of
October, and the herd of the contractor never, to my knowledge, stampeded. No issues
were omitted in October, as there ~~ere four issues during that month, to wit, on the
1st, ~tli, 21st, and 23d; only that tlie issue of the 15th was postponed ui~til the 21st,
tly reasons for which postponement appear in n~y report for that month, to which I
respectfully refer.
Ii) regard to the stan'pede of cattle, I shall be pleased to explain: On the 1st of
October there were issued 267 bead, and on the ~th there were issued:360 head;
after this last issue a part of the agency-herd stanipeded, and I then decided nOt to
keep an agency-herd, but requested Mr. Bosler to retain the cattle in his custody
~intil I needed them for issuing, which he kindly consented to do, and also assisted
))~C in getting up the cattle which bad stampeded.  This Mr. Bosl~r was not cornpelled to do, as his contract permitted him to make all his deliveries for a month in
two installments. I directed the chief herder to turn over to Mr. Bosler's herd all the
cattle recovered, and in compliance with this order the herder did turn over to Mr. Bosler's herd 242 head, and Mr. Bosler collected 355 bead, making in all 597 bead, for which
Mr. Bosler acknowledged the receipt of, and accounted to nie for the sanle. There
were no cattle isslied on the 1~tli, but on the 21st of October there were issued 1S6
lieltl, and on the 23d of October 399 head. The 23d was the regular issue-day, and the
i~sne was then niade for that reason, and not on the solicitation of any one. After this
I decided to make the issue everv ten instead of, as formerly, every seven days, with
a view of diminishing the gross amount of the issue, if possible; hence the next issue
wd's deferred until the ~th of November, when 390 head were issued, averagilig 993
lounds each, all of which were weighed; and on the 18th of November 410 beeves
were issued, averaging 967 pouiids, which, though a line herd, were not so large or so
heavy as iii;tny f~ii~incr issues.
As to wli;it Mi. George M. BusIer told Mr. ~Va1ker, I kiiow nothiiig.  I did give receipt lated on tlie 1st of October for 647 head, and the receipt dated 15th of Octol~er
Tor 6:3:3 head, all of which cattle were weighed as certified to, and averaged tlic flill
.`inioiint allowc~l.  ~Iy ciistoni was, lip to the niiddlc of October, to send aii order to
Ilie coiifractor for a certain iinniber of cattle. ~Vhen the order was filled and tlie eattlc tiiriied over to lily lierder, lie so reliorted to nie; tlien I sent an or~ler to my herder
lir eiioiigh to sii~iply an issue, when the cattle were brought to the corral, aii~l sonictiiiies 10 aiid ~ometinics 20 were selected as an average, killed, and weighed. This was
<loiic oiit of evei~y lot received uiitil I got iny scale set up, silice when all have been
weighed.
l(?rli. Ii~;iii~wer to cliarge teii, I deny that receilits were given for any cattle not
<l~livercd to tlle agency by the contractor, or for cattle which I never saw, unless at
.~oiiie tinic wlieii I was absent from the agency.  I further state tltat there is a record
`if ill cattle received during the month of October, as well as every other mouth. Oii
this charge I would refer to tlic rccor~ls aiid the clerk, l~. F. ~Valters.
IlIb. Iii answer to charge eleveii, I deny each avernicut in ~he same, and further
`tnswcr that tlie lot of cattle weighed by Mr. Applctoii actually weighed 993 pounds on
tlie scales, aiid that nothing was allowed the contractor for ovcrdriving. As evidence
(lii this point, I refer to the records and George M. Bosler.
12th. Iii answer to charge twelve, I would say, that it has always been impossible for
Inc to itiake ally persoiial estimate of the number of lodges, though I liave oil several
icc('}~ioli S attciiiptcd to count ti?em, biit the Indians were so ui~ich opliosed to a~~y proccc~iin g of Ilie kind, that niy life was cirdangered in the attempt. I ~as therefore
c~iiiipclled to rely up(in the best inforniation I could gather in regard to tlie ni~rtter,
and alniost alwa~s allowed a iriiich less aniount than was returied by tlie Indians (In
regard to this? I would refer to Joseph Bissonette, T. N\T Reed, aiid every other inan on
tlie agcnc~, without resliect to age or color. Also, to niy report for the month of October, and special report.)
13th. In answer to charge thirteen, I can simply say, no issues were omitted in the
iiionth of October. There were four issues in that month. (In regard to this, see
rcc'~rds; also, call the clerk, 916;454;1934]B. F. ~Valters.)
14th. In answer to charge fourteen, I would say, I kept tlie Department flilly ad`ised of all my proceedings, aiid particularly that I was compelled to niake o~ erissues
of beef, and the reasons why, viz, that I was short of other rations, and tlie hostile
attitude of the Indians.  (See my report.)
1~rh. In answer to charge fifteen, I w oiild say, that I did purchase ten horses; fl~at I
paid ~70 apiece for them; and in regard to the niatter I iiiake the following explana 
824
tion. The horses were needed; the Commissioner authorized the purchase of them. I
went into the market and attempted to buy, and found but one man I could purchase
from, and I bought of him. The price I paid was reasonable, and as low as I could buy.
After the purchase, I advised the Commis~ioner of what I had done and he approved
the act, as I needed the ambulance mules to draw lumber, &c., and for a while used
four of such horses on the ambulance in place of the mules. (In regard to this see my
correspondence with the Commissioner and call Jos. Kamer.)
1(3th. In answer to charge sixteen, I would say, when I came to the agency I found
Edward MeEvena acting as clerk, and, being advised that he was a good one, I requested
him to remain in that capacity, but he informed me that he could not, and should be
compelled to leave; whereupon I telegraphed to Frank D. Appletoii, at Sioux City,
Iowa, that I would give him the situation if he would come out immediately; he
answered by telegraph that he would be here on the 17th of August, when I placed his
name on the pay-rolls. After waiting until that time, and needii~g a clerk, I employed
one temporarily, daily expecting Mr. Appleton. After some weeks, the mails being
much delayed, I received a letter informing me that the day before he was to start f~~r
the agency he had broken his leg, but wottld come as soon as he could travel; ~ so
long a time had elapsed since the date of the letter aiid its receipt, I concluded he must
then be on the road, so I con tinned the teu~porary incumbent in the position until
Appleton arrived, when he assumed the position, and paid the man who had acted for
hini and in his place. (In regard to this I refer to Otis W. Johnson.)
17th. In answer to charge seventeen, I would say, I did deliver to Joseph Bissonette
two half-bolts of cloth, one red and the other blue. I delivered this cloth to hija to
be distributed among the Indians on occasions of death, it being a custom of theirs
that they must have something of the kind to niodif, their grief ajid make their
hearts glad. Though a costunie of this color may appear soniewbat unusual as a
badge of mouriling, I am informed the cloth was disposed of as directed. (In regard
to this I would refer to Joseph Bissonette.)
The f~~regoing is mOst respectfully submitted to the consideration of your honorable
body by
Your most obedient servant,
J.J. SAVILLE,
~~i it(~d Slo tes lndiae Agent.
I? ED CLOUD A~~~cv, DAKoTA T~iini~oav,
Mai~~~h 17, 1574.
AGENT HOWARD'S REPLY TO WALKER'S REPORT.
WiIETsToNE A~~~xcv, DAKOTA TE univoav,
Meivlt 22, 1574.
To the lion. Bo~n~ OF INDIAN C~~~~issiox~ns:
In answer to the charges preferred against nie by ~Ir. Samuel Walker, under date of
Deceniber 5, 1573, or so much of such i~harges as I am advised it is tlie wish of your
honorable body I should make aiiswer unto, I would niost respectfully answer and
represent as follows, to wit:
1. Iii answer to charge marked one, I would say that the issues are calculated from
the number of lodges, and aii amount issued based on such calcnlatioiis, and a full
record is kept of this amount so actiially issued; and the clerk never,  as~I aui informed
and verily believe, told any one that the stated nuniber for which an issue was made
(lid not equal the actual nuiiiber. All the issues calculated were fully expended,
thougi~ tlie number of lodges given in, because believed to be excessive, was often cut
down, but iii such case a record was only niade of the amount of the issue actually
niade. (See records; call Clerk E. Willard and Dominick Bray.)
2. In aiiswer to cliarge nuniber two, I would say I never gave or issued anything to
supply more than the quantity actually needed, and neither beef nor anything else was
charged in excess of what was actually expended. (See records; call Willard and
Bray.)
3. In answer to charge three, I would say I did not have on hand tlie 30th day of
Septeniber 950 head of beeves, but 775 head; I did receive in October 1,056 head,
making a total of 1,5:31 head; (if this nuniber I~expended in October 553 head, in November 749 head; there was lost an~l stolen during this quarter 66 head, aiid after the
issue on the 10th of Noveniber I had on hand 133 liead. The work-catUe were not
among the beeves, except one, which was~pointed out to Mr. Walkey by the herder as
one of the work cattle. (See record; ~~ illard, John Atkinson, Simon Lunderman,
and John Whalen.)
4. In answer to charge four, I would say that it is true the weight of tlie cattle, up
to November was determined by selectiiig from 10 to 20 as an average; that I often 
825
participated in the selecting; tbat when this was done there were no scales, but scales
were put up as soon as practicable, and then all the cattle were weighed. T he end-gate
of a wagon was never counted as a part of the weight of the beeves, nor was one-half
cut or weighed, as stated.  I either attended to the weighing in person or had some
reliable person to act for me in that capacity. (Call C. Benard and J. Atkinson )
5.In answer to charge five, I say the work-cattle were not introduced into the herd,
and the acting agent did not say what is claimed in regard to the matter. (Call E.
Willard, J. Atkinson, and S. Lunderman.)
6.In answer to charge six, I would say that the inferences in fl0e same, drawn from
tbe statements of acting agent and George M. Busier, are wholly without foundation;
that the acting agent told Mr. Walker that he should try and avoid an issue of beeves
on the 20th of November. (Call F. Willard, George M. Bosler, and George H. Jewett.)
7.In answer to charge 7, 1 wonid say: October 1, 1 issued to 1,076 lodges, and that
on the 15th of November there was no issue at all.
The estimate of nnmber of Indians to whom issues shonid be made was based upon
the best information I could gain. The clerk at the agency (lid not tell Mr. Walker
tha~ he calculated the number present to be about as many more as properly belonged
to the agency. There bave been far more than 720 lodges present at the agency.  I
have always endeavored to cut down the amount of issues demanded.  (Call F. Willard, Louis Bordeanx, and see records.)
~.In answer to charge eight, I would say that it was necessary there should be an
agent at Fort Randall to receive and care for supplies at that point. C. Ferris acted
as such agent there, and ~ben so acting as receiving agent at Fort Randall he was the
junior member of the firm of Pratt & Ferris. Neither iiiember of the firni was at Whetstone at all. I was a stranger in the country and acquainted with Mr. Ferris. J knew
of no other person to appoint at Fort Randall except Ferris. (Call F. Willard.)
9.In answer to charge niiie, I would say that, in regard to the oats, I met the Commissioner of Indian Affairs in Sioux City, and he asked me if I could not buy the oats.
I replied that I thought I could, and immediately applied to Mr. Charles aiid Mr. Pratt
to buy the oats as low as they could. Mr. Pratt delivered the oats, and I had no information upon which I could decide that the price was unreasonable. I do iiot believe
any lots were delivered here at the price stated by Mr. Walker.  (Call F. W. Raymond
and George H. Jewett.)
10. In answer to charge ten, I would say, respectfully, fl~at I never at any time employed more herders than were necessary, and even with the number I had there was
a great deal of trouble in protect lug the cattle. As soon as I ceased to keep an agencyherd the herders were discharged. (Call Atkinson, Lunderman, and C. B enard.)
11. In answer to charge eleven, I would say that when I first took charge of the
agency I cut the prices all down to $40. The men had been receiving $50 aiid $60 per
month before. After I cut the prices down the men refused to work at that price,
and, as I could uot supply their places, I was compelled to put them up to $50.  I have
but one butcher, C. Benard, and he has an assistant, a man who is only paid $30 per
month. It would be out of the question to dispense with the services of C. Benard,
unless I could do without a butcher. (Call F. Willard and any employ~s.)
12. In answer to charge twelve, I would say that the superintendent, F. W. Raymond, has never been away from  the agency or worked a day for himself during all
the time he has been in my employment, and I regard him as one of the most reliable
and necessary men on the agency. He may own some teams that are employed by
other parties, but his ownership of such teams never in any manner prevents him from
faithfully discharging all his duties as superintendent. (Call Raymond, D. Bray, F.
Willard, and Louis Bordeaux.)
13. In regard to charge thirteen, I would say that at the time of Mr. Walker's visit
to this agency two of the horses referred to by him were at the herd-camp, and the
other was at Fort Randall for the use of the herders there, and the horses are still in
my possession. (In support of this call J. Atkinson and Paul Dorion.)
The foregoing is niost respectfully submitted to the attention of your honorable body.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
F.A. HOWARD,
United State~ Indian Agent.
Dated at Whetstone agency fl~is 22d day of March, 1574.
53IF 
826
I~EMDLE AND ALVORD'S REPORT.
RED CLOUD AGENCY, WYOMING TERnITORY,
June 16, 1873.
Sia: Referring to your coininuniention of the 17th of MQv, reciting the appointment
of a special coniiuission, composed of i~1essrs. Brunot, Keinbie, and Alvord, for specific
purposes, and giving instructions as to tile perforniance of certain dii ties liy the second
aud junior mie~ibers of the coii~niission in advance of its principal work, the undersigned respectfnllysubinit this partial reliort:
I. As to the preparatioii for a general conference at fl~is point for the niain objects of
tlie commission aid tiie detern~ination in advance of the teniperof the Sioux Indians
within reach this doty was perfornied by ~Ir. Kemble prior to tlie arrival of his issociate, and a preliminary report thereon rendered by hini from this place, dated Jnne 2,
1873.
II. An engagement was niade by telegraph, throngli (;eneral Stanley at Fort Snlly,for
the assistance of the Rev. Saninel D. Hiiiiii;iii ns ii~terprcter, but that gentleiiiau has
not yet joined the coiiiniissiouers, nor lia 5 aiiythiiig been lately heard from hi in.
111. The chiefs and headnieii of the Northerii Ciieyennes aiid Arapahoes, now attached to this agency, are to be niet in couiicil by the undersigiied to-niorrow, to determine the posoanel of their delegation to Washington, and the result will be niade the
subject of a special report to your Office.
IV. The oiily other niatter embraced in tlie instructions referred to relates to certain
complaints about the beef-issues at the San tee and Whetstone agencies, as shown by
certain papers on the subject accompanying those instructions.
These papers did not reach Mr. Kemble until his arrival at Cheyenne, ~~~o., so that
he was unable to confer with SnperintendentWhite in this connectiou,but Mr. Alvord
stopped at Omaha for that purpose, and upon such inforniation as he obtained from
Superintendent White, the documentary evidence in his office, and from disinterested
parties at that place, satisfied himself fully that there was 1)0 just ground for complaint
as to beef-issues at the Sautee agency or any other point within the Northern Superintendency.
Messrs. Kemble and Alvord together visited the Whetstone agency at its new location during the week ending June 14, 1873.  (This Red Cloud agency is on the north
bank of the North Platte River, about five miles west from the point where the boundary-line between Wyoming and Nebraska crosses that stream. Your commissioners
left this place Monday, June 8, and, traveling an estimated distance of one hundred
and thirty miles by the road (about one hundred miles air-line) in a general northeasterly direction, arrived at the new Whetsone agency ill the night of the fi~l1owing day.
The latter, froin the best maps and information obtained, is judged by them to be at
or very near the point where the northern boundary of Nebraska crosses tlie White
River, and situated upon its southeast bank.  Returning, thu conimissioners left that
vicinity on Friday morning, June 13, and reached this place on the evening of the sueceeding day.)
With reference to the specific charges as to beef.issnes at this Whetstone agency,
no report can be now rendered, chiefly because the late agent, together with his only
clerical assistant, succeeded in leaving the place just prior to the visit of the commissioners, renioving all documentary evidence as to the business transactions at that
agency prior to the present month, and leaving a class of employ~s so unprincipled
in character and evidently so interested themselves in the late operations there that
no reliability could be placed upon any statements made by them.
In general terms, however, your commissioners express their opinion that the indefi -
in ite charges of irregularity in the Indian service in this region, and especially the "leakage in beef" referred to by Mr. Welsh, result from the state of affairs at the Whetstone
agency. The quantity of beef actually received by the Whetstone agent during the
past year was nuquestionably greatly less than that receipted for to the contractor, the
amount really delivered to the Indians far less than appears upon the provision-returns,
and the Indians reported thereon as receiving snilsistence much in excess of the true
number.
In brief, while unable, for want of specific data, to make a detailed report on the
points specially referred to them, your commissioners found such a state of irregularity,
confusion, and corruption at this agency-the result of the management of the late
agent-that they recommend a special iuvestigation of its affairs, covering his whole
term, and the suspension of his accounts, with all outstanding vouchers and indebtedness certified by hini, until such investigation can be had.
During the brief visit of your commissioners at this place they searched diligently
for information on the late operations tliere, and have in possession many facts not
called for by their instructions, but which are at the disposal of your Office, either in 
827
the form of notes or as a special report. They are also prepared to offer suggestions on
varlous pointS relating to the management of both these agencies visited by them, as
the result of their observations here.
V. It is believed expedient to mention here that your commissioners found residing
upon the reservation, in the immediate vicinity of the agency, as now located, subsisted therefrom, in many ways lately snbsidized by the agent, and living generally in
concubinage with the Indian women, about eighty white men. Seventy of these were
met iii person, and a brief statement of some facts in relation to them, as given by
themselves, is appended, (A.) Here is a band of men, plainly of the most undesirable
cluss, with a common self~interest, certain to be a constant source of trouble to the
agent, and to retard the progress of the Indians so long as they remain among them.
Half of the eighty claim to have rights of residence, &c., as "legally incorporated"
with the Sioux, and recognized by the treaty of l~6~, while most of the remainder hold
that they are entitled to equal privileges by reason of" marria~e" (cohabitation) with
Dakota women. It is recommended that this important subject receive the immediate attention of the Department.
VI.T he present agent for the Upper Brul~s, who entered upon his duties at the
Whetstone agency on the 1st instant, called the atteiition of your commissioners to
tclegraphic instrnctions received by him, directing the building of the new agency by
employ~s, upon plans to be determined upon consultation with the special commissioners when there. Accordingly, he was recommended to construct the bnildin~s
described in the annexed schedule, (B,) arranged in two hollow squares, or inclose~d
courts, placed en echeThn, a plan thereof being left with the agent. This recommendation was made without detailed specifications, bills of inniber, or estimnte~ of cost, and
having solely in view the apparent immediate wants of tiie agency. regardless of the
question of its permanent location, which still seems to demand fnrther consideration.
Very respectfiilly, your obedient servants,
EDWARD C. KEMBLE.
HENRY E. ALVORD,
Hon. CoMMISSIoNER OF INDIAN AFFAIns,               Special Commissioners.
Department of the Interior, JVash ingto n.
APPENDIX A.
White men at or near the Whetstone agency: Number, 80. Ages: From 20 to 65
years. Nativity: England, Ireland, Sweden, France, Prnssia, Mexico, Canada, and a
majority of the United States.
Legally married to Dakota women                                        10
Living with Indian women.                                             45
55
Children of these (55) white men-Indian mothers..                     157
Ages of same: One month to twenty-six years. (Sixteen of the 157 are young men.)
Length of residence of white men among these Indians:
From 2 months to 5 years.                                              40
From 5 years to 40 years                                               40
50
Number claiming "treaty rights," 40.
Men of white fathers (dead or absent) and Indian mothers now on same reservation
(not including the 16 noted above): Number, 24; ages, 16 to 2h years.
APPENDIX B.
Buildings recommended by Messrs. ~emble and Alvord, special commissioners, to be con   structed by Agent Ho~vard at (new) ~~etstone agency, as soon as Pennaneutly located.
1.For agency-office, clerk's room, council-hall, and dispensary, 100 feet long by 25
feet wide, and 10 feet high, (side walls.)
2.Store-house, 100 feet long, 22 feet wide and 12 feet hiub clear.
3.Another.  Same.,
4.For residence of agent and physician, double building, 40 feet by 40 feet, main part
one ai~d one-half stores high, giving two rooms and kitchen to each on lower floor;
space for two rooms above. 
828
5. Residence for farmer and teachers, double building, 40 feet by 30 feet, one story;
two rooms and kitchen, each tenement.
6. A like building for engineer and miller.
7. For butcher and beef-issues, ice-room, tool-room, and shops, 100 feet long by 20 feet
wide, and 10 feet clear.
S. For employ~s' quarters, mess-room, and kitchen, 80 feet long by 20 feet wide, and
10 feet high, clear.
9. Sufficient cheap stabling, according to judgment of agent.
10.Shed-room, open, ample for wagon, implements, and temporary storage when
needed, in judgment of agent.
Mi~cellaneo~js.-Two wells, hay-scale and shed, stockading and gates.
Material.-Logs, generally pine, two sides hewed or slab-sawed, for main walls;
sawed pine (native) lumber for roof and floor, framing, and all finishing, where practicable; doors, sash, some finishing and flooring, of purchased dry pine; roofs, native
pine shingles, except for stables aud sheds.
No~~.-Ample room provided in in closures for additional building, if needed.
H. E. A.
ADDITIONAL NOTES TO ABOVE REPORT.
Henry C. Alvord to Corne~issioner of Indian Affairs.
L~w~NsvILLi~ P. 0., VA., July 22, 1873.
SiR:  Herewith I transmit two pages of notes relating to the affairs at the Whetstone agency, which should be sent to Inspector Keruble or such other person as may
have received from him the "Notes and memoranda" prepared by Messrs. Kemble and
Alvord after their late visit as special commissioners to the Sioux.
Said papers were in the hands of Colonel Kemble, the last I knew of them; but I
have an impression that he has recently been called upon to forward them either to
the Indian Office or to an officer charged with a special investigati6u of Whetstone
agency " irregnlarities."
Yours, very respectfully,                    HENRY E. ALVORD,
Late S~ecial Commissioner, ~c.
Hon. COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS,
Washington, D. C.
Additional notes of Whetstone agency, gathered from papers on file at h~dian Office, Wash        ington, July 1 and 2, 1d73, by Henry E. Alvord, Special Commissioner.
Money.-First quarter 1872.   Risley received from Washburn, February 27, 1872,
$1,543.18.  Washburn's unpaid roll, January 1 to February 27, paid by Risley, $8,830.67.
Risley's roll, part first quarter, 1872, $1,474.24.  (Risley's total disbursements first quarter, $12,000.)
Second quarter, 1872. Roll, $4,372.34. Total disbursed, $6,803.89.  Balance June 30,
$1,921.23.
NOTE.-Who is David R. Rogers, laborer I Why ten herders this quarter I See
voucher 3.
Third quarter, 1872. Roll, $6,555.28. Total disbursed, $8,798.01. Balance September
30, $22,387.53. (!)
NOTE.-D. R. Rogers again. Too many laborers and herders. Excessive escorts paid.
Fourth quarter, 1872.  Roll, $8,021.00. Total disbursed, $20,939.02.  Balance December 31, 1872, $1,448.51.
Nov~.-Inquire as to vouchers 1 to 5. No. 11, (hanling rations from storehouse to
Indian l~~dges by hired teans, $360.) No. 18, D. R. Rogers and other laborers I Vouchers 22 to 47 cover nearly $10,000 paid out for use of teams of the "men of the country,"
for sundry purposes, at pei~-diem rates.
TIlE GRAVES TRANSPOwrATION Co~vR~cv.-Executed November 5,1872. Forwarded
to Indian Office, Washington, December 24, 1872.  Returned disapproved, January 15,
1872. Risley wrote in defense at Washington, February 20, 1873, (and stated move
began December 28, 1872.)  Office reply, unfavorable to contract, February 28, 1872.
Risley wrote at Washington, March 1, 1873.  See letter with estimate of weight of
freight, &c., to move: (50 pounds to each Indian; 6,625 persons; 331,250 pounds, and
one month's supplies; 390,460 pounds; 721,710 pounds; estimated distance 87~ miles. (!)
Cost, $1.75 per cwt., per contract. Estimated cost of move, $12,629.93.) 
829
May 15, 1873. Risley reports from Beaver Creek, agency removed entirely, and states
voucher issued for transportation of Indians and baggage, Government property and
supplies, &c.  (See letter ~Vhetstoue R., 139.)
May 31,`73. Dr. Graves assigns contract to Posey S. Wilsdn, banker, Cheyenne. lle
forwards it. Vouchers received Indian Office, ~Vashingtou, Juue 24, 1873.  It is for
2,236,126 pounds, (three times estimate,) transported 75 miles, at $2 per cwt. per 100
mile~ amount, $33,541.89. Payment suspended.  See voucher with its strong certificate, by Ageut Risley, as to articles trausported, their weight, the distance, (really 35
miles,) &c.
Beef receipted for to the contractor by the Whetstone agent.
Date.         Gross   Average         Date.          Gross   Average
weight.. per heaA..    weight. per head.
Lbs.    Lbs                          LI)s.    Lbs.
July 10,1872         686, 750  1, 025  November 28, 1872   614, ooo   1,000
Angust 1, 1872       404, 625     975  December 10, 1872  2,631,265  1, 000
August 19, 1872      880, 720  1, 010  March 19, 1873    1, 068,015    968k
September 27,1872   1,016,COO   1,000  April 10,1873        322,644   1,002
October 28, 1872      680, ~36    998  May 30, 1873        617, 900     925
Nov~.-Above taken from receipts forwarded to Indian Office for settlement.
Losses of beef-cattle at Whetstone from agency herd.
Second quarter, 1~72, 17 head; average weight, 975 ponuds; loss, gross. 16,575 pounds.
Third quarter, 1872, 177 head; average weight, 1,010 aud 1,025 ponuds; loss, gross,
179,055 pounds.
NoT~.-Above taken from provision-retnrus of Agent Risley for periods named.
Amount of beef kcyt or hand by age~tt at Whetstone.
July 1, 1872, 689,090 pounds; quarter October 1, 1872, 1,282,450 pounds; January 1,
1873, 2,184,651 pounds, gross. (!)
NoTF~.-Thcse figures from provision-returns of agent on file in Indian Office.
~~mber of h~dians rationed by agent at Whetstone according to his i-eturns.
Average number to whom issued during each of the several months named: March,
1872, 2,700; April, 4,575; May, 5,575; June, 5,575; July, 7,200; August, 5,975; September, 10,735; October, 12,135; November and December, 12,135. No returns at Indian Office now, (July 10, 1873.)
MRMoaANDUM, JUNF 12, 1873.-The number of Brul6 and other Sioux at and belonging to Spotted Tail's (~Vhetstone) agency, and including     temporarily absent but
properly rationed there, as given by ludian chiefs, and verified by statements of employ~s, &c., and observation of special commissioner, from 2,300 to 2,600 souls.
The greatest n~~mber of Indians at and around said agency, and those rationed during any month from July 1, 1872, to June 1, 1~73, according to same authority, 8,000;
5,500 being of northern and eastern bands of Sioux.
The above notes are furnished to be added to those of Messrs. Kemble and Alvord,
special comlliissioners, already signed by them.
HENRY E. ALVORD,
Si~ecial Indian Coetatissioner.
INSPECTOR DANIELS'S REPORT.
OMAHA, NEBR., August 30, 1873.
SIa: Pursuant to instructions from file Department dated Washington. D. C., July 12,
1873, pertaining to the examination of affairs at the Whetstone agency, while in charge
of late Agent D. R. R isley, I visited the said agency on the 28th of July, and again,
after recei~~ing Department letter of July 28, on the 16th of August, spending two days
to niake the examination complete.  August 23- I met late Agent Risley in Omaha, with
the papers connected with his duties as agent. After a full investigation into the
affairs connected with the Whetstone agency under late Agent Risley, I do not find 
830
that there has been any more supplies receipted for than were received. The issue of
rations was made upon the number of lodges as given by the Indians themselves; and
statements of disinterested parties, both whites and Indiaus, are that there were from
fifteen to twenty hundred lodges present to receive supplies during the fall and winter
of 1872 and 1573. Also, at times the action of the Indians in supporting their demands
for the number of lodges stated was such as to render the lives of Government employ~s
insecure unless conceded.
I find that the number of laborers employed were in excess of what the necessities of
the service required; that the number of herders actually employed in that capacity
was less than the number reported on the report for third and fourth quarters, 1573.
(See affidavit of John Atkinson, chief herder.)
In the Graves voucher for moving the Whetstone agency, the distance between the
old and new location is estimated to be seventy-five miles. I find from the best information that can be had, that the distance conid not have exceeded fifty miles. The
present traveled road, which is about thirty-six miles, was unexplored at the time the
agency was removed. The freight of the old agency was hauled by "men of the country," and weighed when loaded. The names of the parties engaged are herein in closed,
but the amount of freight that each man transported could not be had, owing to their
absence.
I herewith inclose affidavits of persons living at the agency, and vouchers of Henry
Graves.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. W. DANIELS,
United States Indian hjs~ector.
Hon. Enw~ii~ P. SMtTH,
Commissioner Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C.
Affidavit of Dominick Bray.
Dominick Bray being sworn, says: I have been at this agency employed by the
agents since 1565. Was employed by agent D. R. Risley as "first-class laborer" to
issue rations to the Indians. Supplies were hauled to Indians last summer. If the
Indians were camped a long distance away their rations were hauled by the hundred,
and if near they were hauled by the day. Mr. Todd Randall hauled, but Mr. E. W.
Raymond hauled the most with his own teams. I issued to more than 1,500 lodges
sometimes. They would run from 500 to 2,000 lodges during the year ending in June
last. I heard they lost cattle last year, but can't say how many. David R. Rogers was
at work here as assistant to the carpenter. The Indians acted bad many times, and
Spotted Tail's Indians were the worst. There was no dependence to be placed in the
statements of the Indians about their number of lodges, and we had to issue just as
they said. I know nothing about the number of cattle received at any time or the
number of employ~s at the agency. They had no beef to issue for about thirty days,
early in the spring.
DOMINICK BRAY.
Sworn and subscribed to before me at the Whetstone agency, Dak., this 16th day or
August, 1~73.
J. W. DANIELS,
United States Indian b~s~ector.
Affidavit of E. W. Raymond.
E.`V. Raymond being sworn, says: I was employed by Agent Risley the 1st of January, 1873. Have been with these Indians for twenty-three years.  I was employed
by Mr. Risley as superiiiteudeut of flirming. My own teams hauled rations for the Indians last winter and spring. I was to be paid by the 100 pounds, at the rate of $1
per hundred. When I hauled to Spotted Tail's camp I was to be paid the same as
though it was hauled here. They were moving the agency, and I hauled to both places,
the new agency and the camp. The estimated distance that the freight was transported was fifty miles. I should think the present traveled road between the two
agencies to be about forty miles. I have hauled no supplies by the day while Agent
Risley was here. In the removal of the agency I moved Indians, hardware, grain,
lumber, and flour, &c. Excepting flour the freight was all weighed. I don't know
how many Indians were here fiom September, 1572, to July, 1573. Last fall and winter there were two or three times as many as there is now; I think they would average over fifteen hundred (1,500) lodges. Cattle were received twice or three times 
831
since last December by Agent Risley. I don't know how much either herd weighed,
biit I told Mr. Bosler that I thon~lit they would go over 750 pounds; that came in
March. They were without beef for a month. 1 hauled 22l,3~0 pounds of freight
from the old agency.
E. W. RAYMOND.
Sworn and subscribed to before me this 16th day of August, 1873, at N\~hetstone
Agency, Dak.                                          J. W. DANIELS,
United States Indian Inspector.
Affidavit of Cit aries Benard.
Mr. Charles Benard being sworn says: I was in the employ of late Agent Risley as
butcher, for the time he was here. Have been at this agency since 1868. The cattle
were weighed on the ]arge scales. They weighed from 10 to 100 out of each drove.
The cattle I butchered weighed from 900 to 1,000 pounds and over. One that I killed
last fall weighed 1,100; they were good, fat cattle. I don't remember the number they
received at a time, but one time I think it was 2,500. I know this because it was
spoken of, as they got so many at a time. They received cattle three times this spring,
bitt I don't remember the number at a time. I think it was a month we were without beef when tlte beef came in March.                   CHARLES BENARD.
Signed and sworn to before J. W. Daniels, United States Indian inspector, this the
16th day of August, 1873, at ~~hetstone Agency, Dak.
J. W. DANIELS.
United States Indian Inspector.
Affidavit of Todd 1~anda11.
Todd Randall being sworn says: I have been with these Indians since 1866. Have
been in the employ of the Government most of the time. I hauled supplies to the Indians camped away for Agent Risley. He paid me $5 a day for 2-mule teams and $7.50
per day for 4-mule teams. Hauled for him very near three months in the second and
third quarters of 1872. The disposition of the Indians at times has been very bad.
They would try to intimidate by force and talk. The mau in charge of the agency, as
well as the whites here, had to yield to their demands to keep the peace and save their
lives. A great many Indians were here last winter, more than twice as many as there
are now. I don't know the average nnmber. I had teams to work in moving the
agency to this place-four 4-mule teams all the time, and part of the time five teams,
besides two Indian teams that worked for me. Three trips Bridgeman's teams hauled
for me. He had two teams. The freight consisted of mostly flour  I think seven
loads of lumber, plows, &c. I hauled in my name 139,705 pounds. The estimated distance the freight was hauled was fifty miles. The present road was impracticable at
that season of the year. The way we travel to the old agency now is about thirty-five
miles.
TODD RANDALL.
Sworn and subscribed to before ine this 16th day of August, 1873.
J. W. DANIELS,
United States Indian Inspector.
~VHETSTONE A~~~cv, DAk., Atigttst 16, 1873.
Affidavit of Josepit Bissonette.
Joseph Bissonette, sr., being duly sworn says: I have been among these Itidians for
forty years. ~Vas employed by Agent Risley at Spotted Tail's ettiul, to assist him in
farming. During the fall and winter when the rations were setit to the Indians, I was
there to issue to theta. In my camp at Spotted Tail's catap there were 300 lodges. I
could not say how many lodges drew rations, but there were a great many. The
rations were hauled to camp by Mr. Raymond's teams atid Mr. Rat~d<.tll's teams. They
hauled rations every ten days. At times the Indians acted bad and had it not been for
the influence of the "men of the country," who have been long with theu~, there would
have been mi~cl~ tit ore trouble. This was catised by the presence of northern Indians.
They were without beef this spring about thirty days.
JOSEPH BISSONETTE, SR.
Sworn and subscribed to before me at the ~~hetstone agency, Dak., this 16th day of
August, 186;l.
J. W. DANIELS,
Unifrd States India a inspector. 
832
Affidavit of H. r~auleau.
Mr. H. Rouleau being sworn says: I was in the employ of late agei~t Risley, in
ebarge of all the property excepting supplies. The "men of the country" hauled supplies to the Indian camps all last year. They banled by the hundred. ~Vhen the
agency was moved I kept an account of all the property shipped. It was all weighed
on the scales but a few loads after the scales were taken down. The account that
was kept by me was taken by Mr. Cox when he left. I hauled one load which weighed
3,500 pounds. I could ~ot say how many Indians were here, but I should j udge from
1,500 to 1,500 lodges. There were a great many, and they, at times, behaved ti~emselves very bad, and threatened the man in charge if be did i~ot do as they wanted. I
know they lost a good many cattle last season, but don't know how il~any.
HUB. ROULEAU.
9igued and sworn to before me this the 16th da~ of August, A. D. 1573.
J. W. DANIELS,
United States h'dian h'spectar.
`vIIETST0NE AGENCY, Angest 16, 1573.
TALK WITH RED CLOUD IN WASHINGTON, MAY 25, 15~5.
Ce'incil cit!' delegation fron~ Red CThed and Spotted Tail agencies, held b~i Assistant Secietary
and Cornnti&'ioner of Indian Affait's, May 2d, 1575.
Secretary Cow~~. Who do you want for an interpreter I
Answer. Mr. Randall.
Secretary Cow~~. The President was not able to come to-day. He intended to, but
it was impossible; and he sent word for you to talk in tlie presence of myself, the
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and Professor Marsh. We will have your words
written down and will report them to the President, who will see you again and have
an additional talk with you on this sul'ject. We understand that you, or Red Cloud,
at least, wants to make some complaints about the condition of affairs at the agency,
and we want to hear all he has to say. Mr. Hinman is here, and can make any corrections and suggestions if he thinks there is any mistake in the interpretation.
RED CLOUD. There is something that is going on that does not please me altogether,
and that is the reason we have come to have you explain it. ~~hat I first want to
speak about is the Nebraska line. I also come to speak about matters about the
agency. I came to see and tell my Great Father that there were some of our people
last year that did not get blankets and clothing sufficient. We suffered with cold.
Look at me, my Father. I am a man. My friend, I know my grand Father does not
know these things.
There is another thing. The provisions that were bought and sent to us-the different kinds of provisions-flour, sugar, coffee, and tobacco, the agents do not buy; but
they exanilne our provisions and everything that was sent to ns.  (To Professor
Marsh:) Did you bring those samples of the things I gave you last summer I
Prof. M~ns~. I showed them to the Great Father, and told hini what you told me to
tell him.
RED CLoUD. That was the idea of the people of my band in giving you those samples. For two years we were furnished with beef, and when they were weighed some
were small and some were large, but they weighed them altogether. I don't want to
lay the blame for this on any one in this matter' I d'in't know who is to blame. I
think my Great Father sends me the kind of provisions as he promised to do, and the
number that be pron~ised. Last winter we lived very hard. It was a hard winter for
us' for one or two nioi~ths we lived very hard. We had no fresh pork; it was all
barreled pork, and we don't like that kind of pork.  The tobacco we get is not very
good, it does not suit us; we cannot snioke it well; it is sweet ai~d has iuolasses in it,
and is sticky and won't smoke.  In regard to blankets, we are a large people, we want
large blankets to wear. A great many of our blankets were braiided like soldiers'
blankets; we don't like to have theni branded in this way-like soldiers. That is what
I have to say, and I am telling the truth. I call on the Great Spirit to witness that I
am telling the truth.
Mr. MARsH. I want to kaow if he is complaining of the quantity or quality of his
provisions I
RED CLoUD. A portion of our flour was very bad this year, and fl00 barreled pork
we don't like. The tobacco ~ as bad too, and soiiie of our sugar was bad. Portions of
all these articles were bad. The pork was all bad. 
833
General Cowi~~. Ab~~nt what proportion of these things were bad?
RED CLOUD. The aniounts probably in the tribes were five or six wagon loads last
year. The wagons are not covered, and it rains in our country, and they get wet sometimes in crossing the river; and that might possibly be the reason these things were
bad. Some of the flour is black, and we cannot eat it. The sugar is the s;ime way,
and comes there wet, but it might have been rained on in crossing t~iie river. The sugar
last year was yellow, and we don't like that kind.
General COwEN. What complaint have you to make abont the cattle?
RED CLOUD. The cattle that are driven there are small, from yearlings up to three
years old, mostly small beeves. Many that are driven to us are small.  There are
yearling calves among them. They give these small cattle and calves to the Indians
without weighing th m.
CO~I~iIssiONKll. You receive these cattle when they are given to you?
RED CLOUD. It is the calves they take out of the herd and don't weigh them, and
give theni to ns. That is all I have to say. I just wanted to tell you about the quality
of the provisions.
CO~JMissIONEE. Do you know about tbe contractor keeping cattle by themselves
that are sick or lame?
RED CLOUD. The heef-contractor drives beeves there every twelve days, and there is
a place where they put those cattle by themselves.
COMMissIONi~R. They don't issue the sick or lame cattle to the Ijidians, do fl~ey?
RED CLOUD. Out of the cattle that are driven there some few of them are lame and
they are all put together, and the agent issues them to the Indians.
COMMISSIONER. You mean that these cattle are issued to the Indians, or taken care
of by the agent?
RED CLOUD. The cattle are brought there by the contractor and weighed and turned
over to the agent, and are issued to us by the agent.
COMMISSIONER. You don't understand. You say that there is a herd of cattle that
are sick and lame, and are kept by themselves. Do these cattle belong to the contractor or the Indians?
RED CLOUD. I don't seem to understand about these lame cattle. The cattle are
driven through by the contractor, and delivered to tlie agent by the contractor, and
then kept by the agent.
CO~IMISsIONEn. Are these sick and lame cattle kept by the agent?
RED CLOUD. I am now referring to last winter. Then the eattle came in there and
sonie of them were poor; and these were sonie that were left after the contractor had
delivered them. There were some that were left and kept in the herd.
COMMISSIONER. Who kept them?
RED CLOUD. The agent's man, a Mexican, an employ~ of the agent who had the cattle
in charge.
COMMISSIONER. How many of these cattle were there?
RED CLOUD. A few.
COMMISSIONER. How many?
RED CLOUD. From sixty to seventy; perhaps over.
COMMISSIONER. Had thOse cattle been weighed?
RED CLOUD. Yes, sir.
C()MMISSIONER. What became of the cattle?
RED CLOUD. I am speaking now of the cattle that strayed off. It was very cold
weather, and storms drove them off.
COMMISSIONER. I want to ask again what became of those cattle?
RED CLOUD. The cattle that were over were driven there, and the amount that was
over more than was issued the agent gave to the Indians, one each to the families
around.
COMM!sSIONER. Does the agent generally do that?
RED CLOUD. Tlie cattle were not issued very regularly. It was a very hard winter.
Sonietimes there were cattle more than enough for one issue, and the few over, the agent
would give those cattle to the Indians as far as they would go. A good many froze to
death, and many white men froze at the same time. It was hard to get the cattle
together to issue.
COMMISSIONER. These cattle were issued by the agent after the issue was made?
Didn't you say just now that the cattle were kept by the Mexican herder?
RED CLOUD. That was when there was an overissue. They Mr. HINMAN. (Interrupting the interpreter, Randall.) He didn't say that at all.
Mr. RANDALL. That was what he meant.
(~OMMISSIONER. I want you to say what Red Cloud says.
RED CLOUD. These cattle that were left over at the issue were put in the herd kept
by his nephew, the herder. These cattle were put there, and when they were dying
with the cold weather, they were given out to the Indians.
COMMISSIONER. But I ask you now about the cattle that were kept by themselves.
I asked you that to begin with. These were cattle that were kept with the herd. 
834
SPOTTED TAIL. Those cattle that were poor and sick died. They did not keep them
up and they died.
COMMISSIONER. Spotted Tail doesn't know that; I am asking Red Cloud. You say,
Red Clond, that there was a herd of sick and lame cattle kept by themselves. Do you
say so, or did I inisunderstand you?
RED CLOUD. The cattle were brought up by the contractor to il~e agency. They
were weighed and tnrned over to the agent, aiid the agent keeps a herd there, and
sometimes there ~re more cattle there than are   Mr. HINMAN. (Interrupting the interpreter.) He doesn't say that. He says the cattle
were brought from a great way off. While on the way they belonged to the man who
bronght them. After they were turned over to the agent, they beloi~ged to him. But
I don't know who took out the lame cattle, or who they belonged to.
COMMISSIONER. Now I want to speak of those sixty or seventy that were left over
one time. At what time was that issne?
RED CLOUD. In December.
COMMISSIONER. What was the time when these cattle were turned into the herd?
RED CLOUD. Right after.
COMMISSIONER. Did you go with General Bradley to see some cattle?
RED CLOUD. Yes.
COMMISSIONER. When was that?
RED CLOUD. That was after this time.
COMMISSIONER. Where did yon go?
RED CLOUD. Above the agency; above the military camp.
COMMISSIONER. What herd of cattle did you go to?
RED CLOUD. I went to a herd that was kept on this branch by the agent.
Mr. HINMAN. He didn't say that.
COMMISSIONER. Were they kept by the contractor, or by the agent?
RED CLOUD. I don't know. The cattle came togeth~r. They were cattle tha~ were
left over, and were kept herded on this creek.
COMMISsIONER. Who was herding them?
RED CLOUD. A Mexican and a nephew of the agent.
COMMISSIONER. How many cattle were there?
RED CLOUD. I did not count them.
COMMISSIONER. Can't you tell whether there were ten or one hundred?
RED CLOUD Eight.
COMMISSIONER. Were these the kind? Were they jnst such cattle as you had been
receiving all winter ~
RED CLOUD. The cattle that were there were the poor cattle that were left out of
the herd. Those were the poor ones that were rejected.
COMMISSIONER. Then you don't mean to say that the cattle that were given you
were as poor and as bad as these cattle?
RED CLOUD. During the winter a great many good beeves were given. There were
some poor, but these poorest ones were driven out and were taken out of the herd, and
not issued to the Indians. Most of them were good beeves. There were a great many
very good beeves.
COMMISSIONER. Did you tell General Bradley that these eight cattle were the kind
that the agent generally gave you?
RED CLOUD. It was Red Dog that told General Bradley that the agent gave the In  dians poor cattle sometimes.
Mr. HINMAN. I dou't think that is right. R~d Cloll(1 says General Bradley asked if
those were the cattle they had issued to them, and Red Dog said those were the kind
of cattle.
COMMISSIONER. If General Bradley had asked you that question, would you have
answered that way?
RED CLOUD. Red Dog said that and I said nothing. I am not responsible for it at
all. I went out to the military camp, and Bradley asked where the cattle were kept,
and he said we will go there. While they were driving in the herd I was in the house,
and I heard Bradley ask Red Dog if those were the cattle issued to them; and Red
Dog said yes, but he meant the kind of cattle-that they were Mexican cattle; but he
did not refer to the quality.
COMMISSIONER. Do you know what became of those cattle?
RED CL()UD. As to the agent, there was a time that 17 cattle were killed, and he
took the hides and gave us orders on the store for the hides, and when we counted up
- we were $40 short.
COMMISSIONER. Was it the agent or the trader that made you come short?
RED CLOUD. He gave orders for $3 instead of $4. But in regard to the invalid herd
that was spoken of there were seven or eight of them that were never given to the
Indians at all.
COMMISSIONER. Do I understand that thcse eight were some the agent rejected, and
were not issued to the Indians? 
835
Mr. HINMAN. He does not say that they were issued, bnt'that the Indians took them.
COMMISSIONER. You say the agent didn't issue them, but the Indians took them for
themselves?
RED CLOUD. It was a pretty hard time for the Indians to get anything to eat, and
they took those and killed them.
Co~~~sS~o~~a. But you say the agent rejected them, and the Indians took them
themselves?
RED CLOUD. Yes; the Indians took these cattle and killed them.
COMMISSIONER. Well, let us have that settled. Do I understand you to say that
these cattle, when the contractor drove them up, were rejected by the agent?
RED CLOUD. Yes.
COMMISSIONER. And then these were the cattle that afterwards Red Dog showed to
Bradley?
RED CLOUD. Yes.
Professor MARSH. Didn't you say that the contractor turned over these cattle to the
agent, and that he issued part of them to fl~e Indians, and that those were left in the
hands of the agent-the Mexican and his nephew taking care of them?
RED CLOUD. When the cattle are brought, a good many of them are left over after
the issue, especially if a large number were brought; the remainder are turned over
to the agent's herder. This time there were none over but the rejected ones, and they
were turned over with the rejected ones to the agent's herder.
Mr. MARSH. Can you give me the reason why these cattle were turned over into the
agent's herd?
COMMISSIONER. I don't know much about it, but I think I can explain it. The contractor keeps no herd within eighty miles of the agency. If there are any cattle left
over, of any kind, they have to be left with the agent.
Professor MARSH. When the herd comes up from the contractor, doesn't the agent
take the whole herd?
RED CLOUD. Yes.
Professor MARSH. Then these cattle that were left over were accepted?
RED CLOUD. No; those that were left over were rejected. There are generally about
sixty left over; this time there were only eight.
Professor MARSH. If they were not accepted by the agent, and the agent did not consider himself responsible for them, why did the nephew, the agent's herder, take care
of them?
RED CLOUD. There was nobody else to take care of them, and they cost money to
somebody and were put in there.
Professor MARSH. I want to ask if; at the next issue, any cattle were heavier thau
those that Bradley saw?
RED CLOUD. I want to be just in this matter and say the truth. Some herds of cattle that are brought up there have large and some have small cattle; this one was a
good one.
Mr. MARSH. At the next issue were any cattle heavier than`those poor cattle?
RED CLOUD. I told you that the cattle at the next issue were good. If I should say
that they were all large, I should not tell the truth. They varied, but it was a good
issue.
Mr. MARSH. Were you at the next issue?
SPOTTED TAIL. We all attend the issue of cattle. We do not expect to get cattle
all so high, (indicating the height with his hand;) but some so high, and some smaller.
Mr. MARsH.  Were you, Red Cloud, present at the next issue?
RED CLOUD. I have the heart. I and my men all go to the issue. The cattle are
different sizes, and I have to go, because all the families want to get the large ones.
It would be better if the cattle should be issued by weight.
Professor MARSH. When the herd conies up and is accepted by the agent, are all
weighed, or only a few of them?
RED CLOUD. We have a large corral with a large entrance, with large scales at the
entrance, and the cattle are driven on to them, six or seven at a time; and so every
hoof is weighed. I think my father (meaning the agent) has been neglectful in one
thing. He does not keep the scales in order. The planks are too thick.  They should
be made light as possible, so that the cattle may weigh as much as possible.
Professor MARSH. Were the samples given me of tobacco, flour, and sugar fair samples of what you generally had issued to you?
RED CLOUD. We don't mean to say that all the provisions were according to the
samples given; but those samples were selected by Red Dog from the houses. He said
that was what they were eating, and asked you to ask the Great Father to give better.
Professor MARsH. But you gave me those; were they a fair sample of what you were
getting generally?
RED CLOUD. Those samples were taken part from my house and part from Red Dog's;
and I merely meant to say that they were taken from food that was issued. I do not
mean to say that it was all like that. 
836
General Cow~~. How much was like that?
RED CLOUD. 1 said five ~agons. I don't know, but I think they got wet going
through the Platte.
General Cow~~. How long would five wagon-loads last you?
RED CLOUD. I have a very large band and a large tribe of people; and I think it
would take from seven to eight wagon-loads for one issue.
Co~~issio~~a. How many issues do yon have in a year?
RED CLOUD. Every ten to thirteen days they issue beef.
COMMISSIONER. Except these five wagon-loads, were the rest of your supplies of a
good quality?
RED CLOUD. That whidi is not wet is of a good quality.
SPOTTED TAIL. All the snpplies whid~ I have received, from the time the agency was
established to the present time, have been bad.
RED CLOUD. I think the provisions are wet to make them weigh more.
Professor MARS LI. Is the tobacco, coffee, and sugar good?
RED CLOUD. The tobacco was wet; and it is of a kind that we don't want; it is
inixed with honey and molasses, and is made for chewing and not for smoking.
COMMISSIONER. I have some better tobacco for you this year. I did not buy it of the
same man as last year.
Mr. MARSll. Was the coffee good?
RED CLOUD. It was not very good to drink, but we had to drink it because we had
110 other; but we would like to have better.
Professor MARSH. Did your people suffer from starvation last winter?
RED CLOUD. It was a very hard winter.
Professor MARSH. How long did you go without beef?
RED CLOUD. The last winter has been very hard; our issue has been every thirteen
days, and it has been from thirteen to twenty-one days. That man, American Horse,
is appointed to attend the issues and see that everything is nght.
COMMISSIONER. Do you know why the contractor didn't have his cattle there, when
that long time of issue occurred?
RED CLOUD. They were bringing a large herd over, and there were very cold days,
and two warm days, and then some cold days; and the man who was bringing them
over was frozen.
COMMISSIONER. Do you blame the agent or contractor for the man being frozen?
A~~n~c~~ HORSE. We are in earnest about this matter, but do not want to blame
anybody; we want you to give us the best provision you can; and ill this conversation we don't blame anybody. I am appointed to stand at the scales at all issues. I
don't mean to blame the agent; I merely say these things because I was asked.
COMMISSIONER. Is there anything else you want to say?
CONQUERING BEAR. I would like to say a word in regard to beef. We have issued
to us cattle that are old and cattle that are young; hereafter we want cattle of the
same age; not old ones nor young ones; I mean I would like to have the contract
made that only cattle from four to seven years old be accepted for our agency.
General Cow~~. We will carry your words to the Great Father. I am very glad that
you have had an opportunity to tell us about these things; and in future, if you have
anything to say, you must let us know.
Professor MARSH. I would like to know if Red Cloud and his band are perfectly
satisfied with their present agent.
RED CLOUD. When I came first to Washington the President told me he would give
me an agent, and I must look out for him; if he didn't please me, to bring him back; that
be had a great many men, and wo~ild give me a good one. I have brought him back
here for you to consider the matter. I want the Great Spirit to hear me, and give me a
good and wise man for an agent. I don't want a western man, but a man from the
East, and a man that is wenirhy. These western men fill their pockets, and when
they are full, they fill their hats; and then they say, "good-by," and go away. I
know there are a great many good men the Great Father has here, and I want a man
for an agent that has a good heart and money, and one that will look after our interest,
and take good care of us. I came here with my agent, and didn't mean to say anything about this thing, but have been forced to say it.
General COwEN. The reason we asked was because we wanted to hear all you had
to say, and we will have the Great Father give you a goo~[ inan for an agent.
COMMISSIONER. I want to say a word about yoi~r blankets. You complain of your
blankets being marked U. S. I. D., (United States Indian Department.) That was done
because it is said by some persons that ninny of the Indians sell their blankets to the
traders; but I don't know whether this is true; and they say, too, that the agent sells
your blankets to the traders. Now, in order to know whenever any of your blankets
are sold in these ways, we put that niark upon them. That is one reason; it is to protect you and to protect us. Now about your clothing being short or scarce. The
same is true of you as of the Cheyenne River agency. The Indians who have come in
there from the upper country were not there when the estimates were made for fur 
837
nishing the clothing, and the clothing sent did not go round among all of you. This
year you will have more clothing, because you have been counted, and more Indians
have been found there than were there a year ago. But I don't want to make you too
happy, because you will be disappointed again. There is not clothing enough bought
for you this year, and there cannot be, because there is not money enough. You require
more and more clothing every year, becatise you get less yourselves from your buffalohides and furs.
About your pork. I sent you pork because there is more in it to eat than there is ill
a pound of bacon. The sohilers like it better than they do bacon; but your agent
told me that you did not like it, and this year I have not sent it to you, but have sent
bacon instead.
RED CLOUD. We never eat pork, and I don't want it sent to us.
TALK WITH LITTLE WOUND AND SITTING BULL, IN WASHINGTON, JUNE
5, 1875.
Council held by the ComrnThsioaer of L~diau Affairs with deThgation of Sioux from Red Cloud
agency, at the office of Commissioner of Iiidiaa Affairs,!J~shington, June 5,1875.
Co~~issio~~a. I understand that some of the young men want to speak this morning, and I would be glad to hear anything they have to say.
RED CLOUD. My friend, we are going honie to-day, and these young men you see
here want to shake hands with you and bid you good-by. We caiiie also t() ask about
something we have not heard about. I would like to ask about the pay for those who
came with me, the interpreters and all the Indians.
CoMMissIo~EH. There are some things to be said about those nien who have come
along that I would rather not be obliged to say to you. They have not come by the
wish of anybody but themselves, so far as I know, and they have been sources of mischief and trouble ever since they came here. They got you to insist on going to the
Washington House, and they got some of you to go there after I had told you that it was
not a proper place for you; they have led you into bad practices since you have been
here; they have taken you, with Beveridge, the proprietor of the Washington House, at
night, into bad places, and now they have the impudence to come and ask me to pay
them for that sort of service, and I leave it you to judge whether I had better do it or
not.  That is all that is to be said on that subject. I have told your agent to spend
for you, in getting such presents as you want, $25 apiece. This is in addition to what
you have already received in suits of clothes and other things that your agent has
bought for you. I wish I could make it more, and do for you what you ask in that
respect, and to furnish each of you a horse, with saddle and equipments; but that I am
not able to do, because I have not the money to make the purchases.
LITTLE WOUND. You tell the truth when you say that you did not invite the interpreters to come along with the Indians; we have heard that before; but if we had
come with only the three interpreters belonging to our delegation, these three interpreters would dispute as to what we said. We invited these three to come in order to
be witnesses on our return as to what was done. As for myself, I am not influenced
by these men. They wanted to come along with us, and now they say we have deceived
them, and between the two they are falling to the ground. They blame us for not
getting paid. ~?e came here at the invitation of the President, and we expected to
go home with horses, equipments, and guns, so that our people would receive us
gladly. If we go home without anything of this kind, when we arrive there the
people will all laugh at us.
Co~~issioN~a. I would not give you guns if I could. If I could give you horses
and saddles, I would, but I have no power about it; I cannot do it, and so it is not
worth while for me to encourage you in any way to expect it. About those men that
you speak of as interpreters: In the first place, they are not interpreters at all. The
best of them, Todd Randall, when he canie to interpret for Red Cloud, broke down, and
Red Cloud had to get some one else. Palliday, the only one who did belong to you as
an inte;rpreter, was employed by me. He could interpret. He is a good interpreter;
but he likes whisky so well that he broke down. Whisky broke liim down. He got
so drunk that I could not see him for several days. I shall pay him for what he did
and see him home. Richard will also be paid; he came at my request; but those other
men, who have deceived you, who have kept you froin doing your duty, and have led
you into bad houses, have no claim for anything, and they may be thankful that they
are not d~ven out of the country. How are you to trn'it these men, when they go
home, to tell what was done here-men that will do all they can to defeat the best interests of the tribe and bring you into disgrace in Washington; what do you want of 
838
them when you get home? Now, this is a plain talk to you, but I may just as well
talk of things as they are rather than ~e should deceive one another.
Now I want to say a word to Sitting Bnll. I have heard with great pleasure of your
conduct and of the conduct of one or two others of th~ Red Cioud agency.  I have
heard from yoi~r agent and from the military officers at the agency of the great service you have rendered the Government.  You have proved yourself to be a very brave
and true man, a friend to your own people and a friend to the whites. Your good con
duct has been reported to the Presideur., and I am instructed by him to give you a
token of his regard in recognition of your good services.
Li~r~~ ~VOUND. My friend, I want to speak to you about another matter. These
things I have heard to-day do not please me; but I shall let it go by, and I want to say
a few words to you. ~Vhen I came here you gave me some advice about the proper
way when I went buffalo-hunting, and I have always done that way, as you iiistructed
me. The nian that is interpreLing for me brought me the iiews that you wished to
have me sell the hunting-privilege.  I told him that it would be better to wait a few
years; but you have given me word, and I will take it back to my people and let them
decide. There are a great many buffalo left in that country. I have told my agent that
those young men who left the agency to go hunting did not do so hecause they wanted
to disobey the Great Father, but they wanted to sell the robes when there was no
issue. ~~~hen I go home I shall tell my peoi)le wh~t you have said about hunting buffalo, and I think they will say yes; but I think you ought to give more money to us
for our women and children. That is all I have to say, and I wish you to consider
these things.
COMMIsSIONFa. I have always heard well of Little ~Vound when he went on his
bunting expeditions. The o~eers and soldiers have always reported that you were
disposed to do right; but you know very well that you scarcely ever go hunting
that something does not occur which makes trouble between your people and the
whites; and every year thi~ grows more and more likely to occur; and I am glad to
bear you say that you will give up this right that is very dear to you. I will present
your case to the Secretary of the Ii~terior, and through him to the President, and then
to Congress, asking that Congress will give the additional sum of money which the
Secretary promised yesterday to try to get; but I hope that you will be able to distinguish between this pomise that we will try to get this money and the promise that
we will give you thein~~tiey; those are two different things.
SITTING BULL. I had said th~t I would go home without, but I have concluded to
say a few words to you.  The young men also ii ave their opinion about matters which
are spoken of here as well as the chiefs, and I have brought these young men here so
that they may consider whatever questions conie up. I have now been here more than
ten days, and have listened to all that has been said on both sides. Although I have
said nothing, I have taken into my ears everything that has been said.  I thought I
would go away without saying anything to you, but I ala going to say a few words be.
fore I go.  These two men who did our business for us do not tell you their own opinions, but of all the people, and they tell you the opinion of our delegatioii. You have
told them since they have been here of the wish of the President, also the words of the
Secretary of the Interior and yourself. You have heard one of the chiefs say that he
would agree to it, and I am of the same opinion; and when I go home I will see my
people and get them to agree to it. When the chiefs consider anythi ng that is for
their good and happiness of their people in the future, they try to do the best thing
they can. I should have been very glad to have taken the news home that we had
accomplished our business here.  The people that are left at home and the chiefs are
waiting to hear what their chiefs have done in Washington; and when I go home I
think they will give you an answer. They will listen to everything that has been
proposed here, and I think they will assent. I would like to have them say yes.  I
thought when I came here with this delegation that the chiefs would accomplish
something here, but as it is we will go back and consider with our people.  When I
go out of the building to-day:I would like the agent to take me straight home, without
stopping at any other place.
COMMISSIONER. I want to speak to those young men about those halfJndiau men
and half-white men. I am sorry they are white at all who live among you.  You will
find now and then men living aniong you of that sort that you can trust, but as a
general thing you will find theni only mischief-makers.  When you find one disposed
to be a 77;1857;478;1881]mischief-maker, ready to come between you and your agent and between you
and your Great Father, you inay be pretty sure he is your worst enemy, and the less
you submit your affairs to him or pay any attention to what he says the better it will
be for you. I am very glad to have met you here, and very glad to have seen you this
morning. I hope you will have a pleasant journey home, an~l that when you report to
your people what the Great Father wants done about these hunting-privileges, about
Wyoming and the Black Hills, they will see that he is your good father and wants
to do the best thing for them.
RED CLOUD. Six of my young men have remained four days at the Washington 
839
House, and one all the while. Wherever white men eat they always expect to pay for
it; the bil~s there will amount to less than $~00.  When I return home 1 would like to
leave the railroad at Sidney; it is mnch nearer home than Cheyenne; and even if we
walk home, we will make better time.  We can get there at night, and walk home in
tbe night.
COMMISSIoNER. I will leave that matter to Dr. Daniels. He is going home with you.
and whatever way he thinks quickest and best he will adopt.  About the board of
those Indians who have found accommodations at tlie Washington House RED CLOUD. That is the wish of all my people. That is the road we go buffalo-hnnting on.
COMMLSSIoNER. I have no objection to your leaving the railroad at Sidney, but will
leave it to Dr. Daniels.  Now about paying for the bbard of those Indians who have
pr~ferred quarters at the Washington House.   The proprietor of that house knew
very well that I did not want you to go there,and he knew very well why I did not
want you to go there, yet lie has tried from the day you came to get you there.  Some
of you he has actually forced to go; and others of you who did go there, and some of
you who remained at the Tremont, he has taken out himself at midnight to some of
the worst places in this city. I do not think he will have the face-and I give him
credit for a great deal of cheek, but I do not think he will have the face-to present me
any bill for the board of Indians this year; and he has got you to do it because he is
ashamed to present it himself.
RED CLOUD. He brought a bill to take to you. I showed it to Dr. Daniels, and he
said the name was not attached to it, and so I must take it back.  I am not a relative
of that man you speak of; I have never spoken any evil against any white man.  I
think you are prejudiced against that man.
COMMISSIONER. Well, I am, slightly.
lACE then spoke to Red Cloud as follows: I told you just how that matter would be
when we commenced it. We came here with divided councils; we have accomplished
~iothin g, and we have no one to blame but oursdves. The Red Cloud agent is a good
man; he is a brave, true man. We tried to break him down but we could not.  He is
the man we ought to take back with us and keep.  We have tried him.  I am a young
man, and I have suffered a great deal in my efforts to protect the agency.
CATTLE WEIGHED AT RED CLOUD AGENCY
Angust 11, 1875, in presence of tite commissioners.
The following is a true copy of the record of the weight of the 377 head of cattle
weighed at Red Cloud agency August 11, 1~5, made on the spot by Mr. Harris:
Number of head.        Weight in       Number of head.       Weight in
pounds.                               pounds.
6                           5,885    6                           6,125
5                           4,735    6                           6,245
7...-                      6,980    6                           6,435
6                           6,605    5                           5,520
4                           4,405    6                           6,175
5                           6,215    4steers                     4,545
6                           5,710    3                           3,210
6                           5,430    4steers                     4,180
3                           3,075    3, (one of them a cow)      3,570
5                           5,470    4                           3,895
4...                       4,085   6                            7,160
4                            4,160
r                            4,975
7                            7,070   6                           6,495
6                            6,435   5                           5,620
5                      -     5,390   3 steers                    3,995
5...                       5,470   1 small steer                 960
5                            4,920   2,(oneofthemacow)           1,920
5                            5,255   3                           2,965
5                            5,385   4                           4,110
1,(acow)                      960    5                           5,190
5                            5.690   5                           5,325 
~4O
Cattle w,nghed at Red Cloud agency-Continued.
Number of head.       Weight in       Number of head.      Weight in
pounds.                              pounds.
3                            3,160   4                            4,355
2                             2,0~0  6                            6,355
3                            3,395   6,(2ofthemcows)              6,150
2                           1, 850   2 steers                    2, 345
4                            4,180   6                            6,215
4                            4,000   5                            5,405
4                            3,780   5                            5,560
5                            5,185   4                            4,500
3                            3,220   3                            3,020
2                            2,020   5                            5,270
4                            3,950   5                            6,220
2                            2,195   4                            4,400
6                            6,390   4                            4,040
5                            5,850   5                            5,865
6                            5,905   4                            4,160
5                            5,660   4steers                      4,095
6                            7,160   5                            4,940
6, (2 of them cows)         6, 000   5                           5, 100
5(2 of them cows)            5,345   6, (3 of them cows)          6,020
5,165   5                            5,075
1cow                           942~
Average weight 1,053 pounds.
LETTER FROM PROFESSOR MARSH.
YALE Cofl~EGE, N~w HAvEN, October 8, 1875.
DEAR SIR: In the volume of testimony taken before the commission I notice, on page
660, the following: "Red Cloud asked Professor Marsh to tell his Great Father that the
blankets sent to him were not fit for horse-blankets. Professor Marsh delivered the
message to the President, and did not inform him that it was not true." This sentence was
not in Mr. Smith's statement as read before the commission, nor in the printed copy he
delivered the next day. Moreover, it is untrue. Red Cloud gave me no such message,
and I stated nothing of the kind to the President. Mr. Smith has interpolated the
above sentence into his statement since the commission left Washington.
There were other misstatements in Mr. Smith's communication as read before the
commission, to some of which, as the testimony will show, I called his attention at the
time, and he promised to correct them. This he has siot done.  One of these is his
statement, on page 657, that he had previously given me "a letter of credit to Red
Cloud." This also is untrue, as he never gave me a letter of credit, or any other letter,
to Red Cloud or any of his band.
I deem these corrections important, as Commissioner Smith is now widely distributing, at public expense, printed copies of his statement, with nothing in the document
to show that the above assertions he has made are not true.
Very truly, yours,
0. C. MARSH.
Hon. T. C. FLETcHER, Chairman.
REPLY OF COMMISSIONER SMITH.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIoR, OFFICE OF INrIAN AFFAIRS,
Washington, I). C., October 13, 1875.
DEAR S~R: I have read the letter of Professor Marsh to yourself, under date of October 8, 1875. Respecting this communication, I desire to say: Professor M~rsh is correct when he says that the sentence which he quotes was not in m~ statement "as read 
841
before the commission." Bnt when he says it was "interpo]ated" he uses language in
the same reckless manner which has characterized all his charges against the Indian
Bureau.  The "statement," after being read to the commission, was retained by me,
with the understanding that it should be put into proper form for printing.  In other
words, I reserved for myself exactly the same privilege which the Professor reserved
and freely exercised for himself in preparing his testimony, viz, to correct in the proof
by changes, both by erasures and additions, until it took the final form in which he
desired to submit it.
Whether the statement that Professor Marsh carried Red Cloud's lie about his
blankets to the President is untrue or not is a question to be settled between himself
and his friend, the reporter of the New York paper. The dispatch which appeared the
morning after his interview with the President says that he did carry that message.
The account of that interview was given to the press by Professor Marsh himself, as he
admitted to me. Again, as to the question of "interpolating" and "untruth," if you
will turn to page 723 of the testimony you will find that Professor Marsh himself put
into my hands a slip containing this newspaper dispatch, and proceeded to cross-examine me thereupon before the commission, as follows:
"Q. Is there anything in that dispatch that is absolutely incorrect ~
"A. Yes, sir.
"Q. Will you please point it out ~
"This may be true in form, but it is false in effect and in the intent of the man who
sent it.  According to this statement, Professor Marsh told the President that Red
Cloud said his blankets were not fit for horse-blankets. Professor Marsh knows that
what Red Cloud said on this matter was a lie, and yet he allowed this statement and
others of a similar character to go for truth, and be commented upon with very serious
criticisms as if they were true, and all the time with Professor Marsh's name attached
to them or associated with them as a sponsor for their truth."
It would seem as if that would have been the proper occasion for Professor Marsh
to have discovered that the statement that he brought Red Cloud's message to the
President was not true, and failing in calling any attention to it at the time, his silence
must be taken for a confession. And his after-thought, of trying to recover himself
from the wretchedly sorry position into which his foolish credence in Red Cloud's
twaddle has placed him, will hardly save his case from the discredit which must~hereafter attach to it.
Professor Marsh also complains as if it were a very serious matter that I did not
correct a mistake into which I had fallen, of confounding Red Cloud with Spotted
Tait.  By reference to page 721 of the testimony it will be seen that I admitted this
error before the commission, which admission, recorded as a part of the evidence, is a
sufficient correction, and the only one which could be made after the question had
become the subject of cross-examination.
Professor Marsh attaches importance to the fact that I have distributed printed
copies of my statement without making the above correction. As will be seen, there
was in fact but one correction which required to be made, the substitution of the
name of one Sioux chief for that of another, and that is made in another part of the
testimony. Any complaint about wide-spread distribution of my denial before the
commission of his false charges comes with bad grace from a man who for five
months has made free use of a willing and hostile press, and has spent freely of his
large fortune, in printing and mailing, in every direction, pamphlets containing the
grossest charges of fraud against public officers, which on inquiry have been found
utterly baseless and without even a pretext for justification.
I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
EDW. P. SMITH,
Comatissioner Indian Affairs.
Hon. T. C. F~~~c~~n,
Chairman Red C to ud h restiga ting Commission.
54 I F  
INL)~X.
ALPHABETICAL LIST OF WITNESSES, ETC.
Page.
Alvord, Henry E                                                764
Appendix                                                       771
Appleton, Oliver B                                             272
Armor, S. B                                                    600
Arapahoes and Cheyennes, council with                          375
Barr, Thomas T                                                 118
Bevier, J. D                                                   728
Bosler, George M                                               485
Bosler, John Herman                                       163, 353
Bosler, J.`V...                                             343
Bostwick, H. C                                                 135
Bradley, General L. P                                          235
Brown, William H                                               481
Brunot, Felix R                                                768
Burt, Maj. A. S                                                517
Carey, Judge Joseph M                                          200
Cheyennes and Arapahoes, council with                          375
Coakley, ~~lliam L                                             151
Cox,Di..C.C                                                    654
Cowen, B. R...            759
Crawford, Lient. Emmett                                        568
Cree, Thomas K.                                               769
Dear, J. W                                                     288
DAan~ Columbus -                                               753
Dodd ridge,`V. B.-   193
Dunn, Richard                                                  196
Ecoffee, Jules                                                 213
Ellison Janies F                                               521
Eskridge, Capt. R. I                                           566
Faruham, H. E                                                  261
French, I~~ac`V                                               155
Gibbons, Mark                                                  462
Green, Julius M                                                483
Hammond, J. W                                                  195
Hare, Bishop William H                                         603
Hay, Lient. Leonard -                                          230
Howard, Maj. E. A                                              492
Hurford, Oliver P                                              128
Iliff, John W                                                  581
Jan is, Nicholas.                                              457
Jarvis, Mitchell                                               265
Jewett, George H                                               564
Jordan, M~. William H                                          309
Kelley, Hiram B -                                              228
Kueval, Caleb B                                                117
Lee, Lient. J. M                                               316
Little Wound                                                   300
Lobach, Alfred T                                               283
Mabry, Seth                                                    526
Marsh, Prof. 0. C                                            1, 21
Marshall, George                                               190
McCann, D. J                                                   533
MePhail, Benjamin G                                            234
McStembel, Lient. J. B                                         453
Mills, Col. Anson...                                         495
Mix, Capt. John -....               510
Monahai~, Capt. D..                                            574
Moore, H.`V                                                   187
O'Brien, N. J                                                  194 
~44
Page.
Pallarday, Leon                                                  336
Paul, Lieut. A. C                                                493
Pease, Lient.`V. B                                              455
Randall, Todd                                                    337
Red Cloud                                                    297,307
Reshaw, Louis                                                    464
Riner, C. W                                                      185
Robinson, William A                                              115
Roberts, Janies                                                  320
Robertson, Lient. B. B                                           483
Rockefeller, Lient. Charles M                                    498
Row land, William                                                244
Saville, Dr. J. J                                        380,385,433
Sheidley, George                                                 550
Sioux, Brul~, council with                                       502
Sioux, Ogallalla, council with                                   296
Sitting Bull                                                     294
Slaveiis, J.`V. L                                               592
Smith, B. P           - -.                                   657,668
Smith,F.H                                                        740
Snow, Dr. Sparrow A                                 - ~          457
Snyder, 1). H                                               -~   577
Spotted Tail          -.                                         508
Stanton, M~. T. H                                                553
Stirk, Richard                                                   269
Supplies, examination of                                         489
Turkey Leg                                                       378
Threlkeld, E. R                                                  584
Walker, Samuel                                                   618
White, Barclay.. -                                               119
Wilcox, Aaron P                                                  113
Wilhite, Presley G                                               598
Willard, B                                                       490
Yates, F. D -                                                    331
Yates, William J                                                 127 
ORDER OF TllE EVIDENCE.
Page.
Letters from Professor 0. C. Marsh to the President of the United States, dated
Jnly 10, 1875, relative to affairs at Red Cloud agency.                  1,3
Letter from Hon. C. Delano to Hon. Clinton B. Fisk, asking him to nomi      nate investigating commission                                              4
Letter from Hon. E. P. Smith to Professor Marsh, dated Jnly 1, 1875, noti      fying him of appointment of commission, and asking for specific charges
in writing                                                                 5
Reply of Professor Marsh, dated Jnly 3, 1875                                5
Letter of instructions from Hon. E. P. Smith to original members of com      ruission, dated July 4, 1875                                               5
Certificate of Louis Reshaw, dated June 1, 1875, relative to issue of blankets
at Red Cloud agency in November, 1874              --                      9
Certificate of General L. P. Bradley, Capt. John Mix, and Lient. Leonard
Hay, dated May 19, 1875, relative to seven head of cattle issued at Red
Cloud agency November 11,1874                                            11
Associated~Press dispatch, published May 29, 1875, relative to that certifi      cate    of Maj. A. S. Burt,                                               12
dated June 12, 1875, relative to cattle issued
at Red Clond agency in the fall of 1874                                   13
Schedule of beef-cattle delivered at Red Cloud agency during the fourth
quarter of 1874                                                           14
Certificate of Lient. ~V. L. Carpenter, dated June 22, 1875, relative to cat      tle issned at Red Cloud agency May 13, 1875                               15
Certificate of Lonis Reshaw, dated June 5, 1875, concerning same           15
Memoranda of beef-cattle delivered at Red Cloud agency, commencing
January 1, 1875                                                           16
Certificate of Louis Reshaw, dated June 5, 1875, relative to stampede of
cattle at Red Cloud agency in the summer of 1874, and sale of such
cattle Press dispatch, pnblished May 3, 1875, relative t(; inspection of 16
flour at Cheyenne by Major Long                                          18
Testimony of Prof. 0. C. Marsh                                                  21
Memorandum of conversation between Professor Marsh, Bishop Hare, and
Agent Saville, in Washington, Jnne 1, 1875                                96
Letter and certificate of Lient. P. H. Ray, relative to cattle issued at Red
Cloud agency in April, May, and June, 1874                                99
Certificate of Caleb B. Kneval, dated August 2, 1875, relative to sample of
sugar and sugar shipped to Red Cloud agency                             110
Testimony of Aaron P. Wilcox                                                   113
Testimony of William A. Robinson...                                            115
Testimony of Caleb B. Kneval.                                                  117
Testimony of Thomas T. Barr~                                                   118
Testimony of Barclay White                                                     119
-Letter from Hon. E. P. Smith to Barclay White, dated Angust 1, 1874, rela      tive to inspection of Indian supplies.                                   119
Letter from Hon E. P. Smith to Barclay White, dated September 14, 1874,
to inspect flour shipped by 0. P. Hurford                               119
Statement of fionr inspected as above directed                            122
Testimony of William J. Yates.                                                 127
Testimony of Oliver B. Hnrford - -.                                           128
Letter from D. J. McCann to 0. P. Hurford, dated July 28, 1874, asking for
five car-loads of flour                                                 129
Letter from D. J. McCann to 0. P. Hurford, dated August 22, 1874, to fur       nish flour in 88-pound sacks.                                           129
Testimony of H. C. Bostwick        - -..                                      135
Telegram from Hon. E. P. Smith to S. H. Palmer, dated December 26, 1874,
relative to actnal weight of flour -                                     141
Letter from E. P. Vining to H. C. Bostwick, dated May 22, 1875, relative
to box of blankets at Council Bluffs                                     144 
84(3
Page.
Telegram from Hon. E. P. Smith to S. H. Palmer, [September 6, 1874,] to
retain sample of flour to be forwarded                                       144
Letter from Hon. E. P. Smith to S. H. Palmer, dated September 26, 1874,
to furnish certificate relative to above-named flour                     144
Letter from H. R. Clum to J. J. Saville,~dated June 26, 1875, relative to
hiring French's warehouse ---                                            146
Letter of J. J. Saville to H. C. Bostwick, dated July 5, 1875, inclosing copy
of above-named letter                                                   147
Testimony of ~Villiaui L. Coakley                                                151
Testimony of Isaac ~V. French                                                    155
Testimony of John Herman Bosler                                              163,353
Testimony of C. ~V. Riner                                                        185
Testimony of H. ~V. Moore                                                        187
Testimony of George Marshall                                                     190
Testimony of W. B. Doddridge                                                     193
Testimony of N. J. O'Brien                                                       194
Testimony of J. ~V. Hammond                                                      195
Testimony of Richard Dunn                                                        196
Testimony of Judge Joseph M. Carey                                               200
Testimony of Col. Andrew K. Long                                                 206
Letter from H. R. Clum to S. H. Palmer, dated September 2, 1874, notify.
ing him of appointment of A. K. Long as inspector                       208
Letter from A. K. Long to S. H. Palmer, dated September 7, 1875, asking
for samples of flour                                                    208
Telegram from Hon. E. P. Smith to A. K. Long, dated October 2 relative
to inspection                                                           208
Telegram from H. B. Clum to S. H. Palmer, dated October 15, 1874, to have
all flour inspected                                                     208
Letter from S. H. Palmer to A. K. Long, dated October 20, 1874, relative
to flour ready for inspection                                           209
Letter from Hon. E. P. Smith to A. K. Long, dated January 14, 1875, rel.
ative to bacon for Red Cloud agency -                                   209
Letter from Hon. L. P. Smith to V. S. Pollard, dated April 8, 1875, accept.
ing proposition for supply of corn..                                   209
Letter from Hon. E. P. Smith to A. K. Long, dated June 11, 1875, advising
him that W. L. Coakley would inspect supplies                           209
Testimony of Jules Ecoffee..                         213
Testimony of Hiram B. Kelley..                                                  228
Testimony of Lient. Leonard Hay                                                  230
Testimony of Dr. Benjamin G. McPhail...                                         234
Testimony of General L. P. Bradley                                               235
Testimony of ~Villiam Rowland                                                    244
Testimony of H. E. Farnham                                                       261
Testimony of Mitchell Jarvis'                                                    265
Testimony of Richard Stirk                                                       269
Testimony of Oliver B. Appleton                                                  272
Testimony of Benjamin Tihbets                                                    277
Testimony of Alfred T. Lobach                                                    283
Testimony of J. ~V. Dear                                                         288
Talk with Sitting Bull                                                           294
Council with the Ogallalla Sioux                                                 296
Governor Fletche?s speech                                                 296
Red Cloud's speech                                                        297
Speech of Little ~ronnd                                                   300
Informal talk with the Ogallallas                                                302
Another talk with Red Cloud                                                      307
Testimony of Maj. ~~illiam H. Jordan                                             309
Testimony of Lient. J. M. Lee                                                    316
Testimony of James Roberts                                                       320
Testimony of F. D. Yates. -.                                                    331
Testimony of Leon Pallarday                                                      336
Testimony of Todd Randall                                                        337
Testimony of J. W. Bosler..                                                      343
Certificate of James F. Ellison, dated Jnly 27, 1875, relative to cattle sold
J. W. Bosler                                                            343
Certificate of Seth Mabry, dated July 26, 1875, relative to cattle sold J. W.
Bosler                                                                  344
Certificate of George W. Littlefield, dated July 22, 1875, rehtive to cattle
sold J. ~V. Bosler.   344 
`947
Page.
Affidavits of George Sheidley and W. C. Irvine, dated July 26, 1875, relative
to cattle sold J. ~V. Bosler. -.                                          345
Affidavit of James F. Ellison, dated July 30, 1~5, relative to above-named
cattle                                                                    345
Affidavit of James F. Ellison, dated July 31, 1875, relative to cattle deliv                      ered by ~Villiam M. Hurst to J.- ~? Bosler, in Septeniber, 1874            345
Certificate of H. V. Reddington, dated July 28, 1875, relative to cattle
turned over to J. ~V. Bosler in April and May, 1875                        345
Certificate of Irvine & Lawrence, dated July 25, 1875, relative to cattle
turned over to J. ~V. Bosler in April and May, 1875.                      346
Certificate of ~Villiam Guiterman, dated July 27, 1d75, relative to cattle
sold J. ~V. Bosler May 26, 1875                                            346
Af~davit of C. McCarty, dated J'ily 27, 1875, relative to quality of J. W.
Bosler's cattle                                                            347
Certificate of Jaijies Callahan and Philip Mushied, relative to quality and
weight of J. ~V. Bosler's cattle                                          347
Certificate of Dr. S. A. Suow, dated August 4, 1875, relative to cattle
received aiid issued at Red Cloud agei)cy May 14, 1875                     347
Affidavit of B. F. ~Valters, dated June 29, 1875, relative to hides of cattle
at Red Cloud agency                                                        348
Certificate of F. D. Yates, ~0ated August 6,1875, relative to cattle issued at
Red Cloud agency, and hides taken from them                                348
Certificate of J. W. Dear, dated August 4, 1875, relative to same subject   349
Abstract of foregoing statements                                            349
Letter from H. Konntz to whom it inay concern, dated July 28, 1875, certi                      fying to good character of S. Mabry, G. W. Littlefleld, George Sheidley,
and James Elli~n                                                           350
Letter from J. D. Bevier to J. W. Bosler, dated July 31, 1875, relative to
good size, condition, and quality of J. ~V. Bosler's cattle               351
Abstract showing number and weights of beef-cattle delivered under the
Foreman contract of l874-'75 at Yankton agency                            357
Same at Upper Missouri agency                                               357
Same at Standing Rock agency                                                                357
Same at Cheyenne River agency                                                               358
Same at Spotted Tail agency                                                                 358
Same at Red Cloud ag~ncy                                                                    358
Recapitulation of above-named abstracts                                                     359
Council with Arapaboes and Cheyennes                                                             375
Another talk with Sitting Bull                                                 —..              377
Talk with Turkey Leg                                                                             378
Dr. Saville's answer to Professor Marsh's charges                                380
Testimony of Dr. J. J. Saville                                                   385
Dr. Saville's documentary evidence:
Letter from S. R. Hosmer to Hon. E. P. Smith, dated September 7,    1873, rel       ative to alleged overissue of rations at Red Cloud agency....              433
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. E. P. Smith, dated September 27,   1873, iu
reply to the above-named letter                                                           434
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. IS. P. Sniith, dated December 29, 1873, rel       ative to number of Indians receiving rations at Red Cloud agency                          435
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. IS. P. Smith, dated December 29,      1873,
giving report of council relative to counting the Indians.                                436
Red Cloud's speech                                                                          436
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. IS. P. Smith, dated February 2, 1874,   rel      ative to arming certain Indians to compel the rest to be counted                           437
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. E. P. Smith, dated February 14, 1874,   rel                       ative to affairs at the agency and opposition of northern Indians         437
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. IS. P. Smith, dated March 24, 1874, re                       porting the count nearly completed                                        438
Telegram from J. J. Saville to Commissioner of Indian Affairs. dated Oc                      tober 19, 1874, requesting order to move the Indians nearer the agency
to be coun ted                                                             439
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. IS. P. Smith, same date, relative to same
subject                                                                   439
Letter from J. J. Saville to Major Mears, dated November 3, 1874, relative
to troops to protect the agency                                            439
Reply of commanding officer of Camp Robinson, dated November 5, 1874        440
I~etter from J. J. Saville to commanding officer of Camp Robinson, same
date, giving fighting strength of the Indians                              440 
848
Page.
Letter from commanding officer of Camp Robinson to J. J. Saville, same
date, relative to troops to meet tbe Indians                                            440
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. E. P. Smith, dated November 13,     1871,
relative to number of Indians at the agency by actual count... -                       440
Telegram from J. J. Saville to Commissioner of Indian Affairs, dated     Oc      tober 24, 1874, reporting that Indians bad cut the flag-staff                           441
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. E. P. Smith, same date, giving    further
details on same subject                                                                 441
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. E. P. Smith, dated January29, 1874, trans       nlitting statement of beef-cattle lost at Red Clond agency during     the
fonrth qnarter of 1873                                                                 442
Above-named statement                                                                    443
Letter fiom J. J. Saville to lIon. E. P. Smith, dated December 21,    1874,
transmitting affidavits relative to the stampede of cattle September   7,
1874                                                                                   443
Sworn statement of Sheridau MeBratney, dated October 26, 1874, on same
subject                                                                    443
Affidavit of Clemente Ben~ard, same date, on saiiie subject                 444
Statement of cattle lost at Red Cloud agency during the fourth quarter of
1874                                                                      445
Affidavit of Sheridan McBratney, dated October 26, 1874, relative to above                   named statement.                                                          445
Affidavits of S. McBratney and C. Bernard, dated November 10, 1874, rela                    tive to same subject                                                      445
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. E. P. Smith, relative to same subject     445
Monthly report for October, 1873                                            446
Monthly report for November, 1873                                           447
Monthly report for Lec~mber, 1873                                                        447
Monthly report for January, 1874   ~                                                     448
Annual report for 1874                                                                   449
Special report-arrival of Professor Marsh                                                451
Testimony of Lient. J. McB. Stembel                                                           453
Testimony of Lieut. W. B. Pease                                                               455
Testimony of Dr. Sparrow A- Snow                                                              457
Testimony of Nicholas Janis                                                                   457
Testimony of Mark Gibbons                                                                     462
Testimony of Louis Reshaw                                                                     464
Testimony of William H. Brown                  - - - -.. --                                  481
Testimony of Lient. E. B. Robertson                                                           483
Testimony of Julias M. Green                                                                  483
Testimony of George M. Bosler                                                                 485
Examination of supplies at Spotted Tail agency                                                489
Testimony of E. Willard                                                                       490
Testimony of Major E. A. Howard                                                               492
Testimony of Lieut. A. C. Paul                                                                493
Testimony of Col. Anson Mills                                                                 495
Testimony of Lieut. Charles M. Rockefeller                                                    498
Council with the Brnl~ Sioux                                                                  502
Talk with Spotted Tail                                                                        508
Testimony of Capt. John Mix                                                 - -.              510
Testimony of Maj. A. S. Burt                                                                  517
Testimony of James I'. Ellison                                                                521
Testimony of Seth Mabry                                                                       526
Testimony of D. J. McCann                                                                     533
Letter from D. J. McCann to 0. P. Hurford, dated August 1, 1874, relative
to speedy shipment of flour                                                             539
Letter from D. J. McCann to 0. P. Hurford, dated November 1, 1874, rela      tive to draft and rejected flour                                                        540
Form of bill of lading                             -... -                                544
Letter from D. J. McCann to 0. P. Hurford, dated August 10,1874, urging
shipme~t of flour                                                                      548
Letters from D. J. McCann to 0. P. Hurford, dated August 14,20,26, and
27, 1874, relative to flour                                                            549
Letter from D. J. McCann to 0. P. Hurford,         dated October 23, 1874, rela       tive to draft and flour                                                                550
Testimony of George Sheidley                                                                  550
Testimony of Maj. T. H. Stanton -                                                             553
Testimony of John F. Coad. -                                                                  558
Testimony of George H. Jewett                                                                 564
Testimony of Capt. R. I. Eskridge                                                             566 
849
Page.
Testimony of Lient. Emmet Crawford                                               568
Testimony of Capt. D. Monahan                                                    574
Testimony of D. H. Snider                                                        577
Tes~imony of John W. Iliff                                                       581
Testimony of B. R. Threlkeld                                                     584
Letter from H. B. Clum to B. B. Threlkeld, dated September 5, 1874, relative
to inspection of flour by sample, under contract with J. W. L. Slavens    589
Letter from Hon. B. P. Smith to B. B. Threlkeld, dated August 1, 1874,
relative to inspection of supplies                                        589
Letter from B. B. Threlkeld to Hon. B. P. Smith, dated November 25,1874,
relative to inspection of pork under Mr. Slavens's contract -.            592
Letter from B. B. Threlkeld to Hon. B. P. Smith, dated November 27, 1874,
giving further details on same subject.                                  592
Testimony of J. W. L. Slavens                                                    592
Letter from J. W. L. Slavens to Hon. B. P. Smith, dated January 11, 1875,
offering to deliver mess-pork or bacon in lieu of prime mess-pork         594
Testimony of Presley G. Wilhite                                                  598
Testimony of S. B. Armor                                                         600
Testimony of Bishop William H. Hare                                              603
Testimony of Samuel Walker                                                       618
Certificate of J. W. Daniels to J. J. Saville, giving number of teams em       ployed in removal of Bed Cloud agency in 1873                             627
Certificate of J. J. Saville to D. J. McCann, ou same subject -             628
Testimony of Dr. C. C. Cox..                                                   654
Letter from Dr. C. C. Cox to Hon. Mr. Cowen, dated October 8, 1874, rela       tive to alleged irregularities and frauds at Bed Cloud agency             656
Statement of Hon. B. P. Smith in reply to Professor Marsh's charges...   657
Letter from D. J. McCann to the Secretary of the Interior, dated Decem       ber 3, 1873, proposing settlement relative to difference of di~tance from
Cheyenne to Bed Cloud agency                                              663
Testimony of Hon. B. P. Sinitli                                                  668
Table of statistics, showing population, &c., by tribes of Sioux Indians
belonging to reservations in Nebraska aiid Dakota                      698
Circular from Indian Office to agents, dated October 16,1874, prohibiting
the incurring of liabilities except in accordance with existing law..... 703
Contract with Bishop William H. Hare, dated December 25, 1874, relative
to schools at Missouri River agencies                                     712
Contract with Bishop William H. Hare, dated March 29, 1875, relative to
schools at Spotted Tail and Bed Cloud agencies -.....                    714
Statement of delivery and inspection of pork under contract of J. W. L.
Slaven~, of ~late July 11, 1874                                           771
Testimony of Dr. J. D. Bevier                                                    728
Letter from Dr. J. D. Bevier to Hon. Thomas C. Fletcher, dated September
5, 1875, in reply to request to appear before investigating commission..   728
Testimony of F. H. Smith                                                         740
Letter of resignation from members of the old Board of Indian Commis      sioners, dated May 27, 1874                                                741
Associated Press dispatch, dated February 20,1874, relative to meeting of
the Board of Indian Commissioners                                          743
Testimony of Hon. Colu'nbus Delano`-.            753
Testimony of Hon. B. B. Cowen                                                    759
Indorsement of B. B. Cowen, dated October 28, 1873, approving claim of
A. H. Wilder for $80,685.56                                                759
Letter from F. H. Sniith to the Secretary of the Interior, dated August 5,
1875, returning without approval of executive committee of Board of
Indian Commissioners, claim of D. J. McCann for $11,368                    761
Indorsement by Hon. B. B. Cowen, dated August 5, 1875, referring the
above to the Second Comptroller for his opinion                           762
Beply of J. M. Brodhead, dated August 6, 1875, with opinion that said
claim can be allowed -                                                     762
-Indorsement by Hon. B. B. Cowen, dated August 6, 1875, allowing said
claim in acco~dance with said opinion. - -                                 762
Decision of J. M. Brodhead in the matter of Neal & Murphy, dated De      cember 28, 1874, on which the above-named action is based                  762
Statement of Henry B. Alvord, dated September 11, 1875                  764
Letter from Hon. Felix B. Brunot to Hon. Thomas C. Fletcher, dated September
11, l~75, declining invitation to visit Washington to testify before the in     vestigating commission                               -..                    768
Letter from Thomas B. Cree to Hon. Thomas C. Fletcher, dated September 16,
1875, containing a similar declination                                      769
55 1 F 
850
APPENDIX.
Page.
Documents relative to b~ef:
~ontract with J. K. Foreman, dated July 14, 1874, for supply of beef to In       dian agencies                                                                       771
Correspondence relative to additional supply under the above-named     con       trac~
Letter from Hon. B. P. Smith to W. A. Paxton, dated March13, 1875,  giving
notice to furnish additional supply                                                 773
Reply of W. A. Paxton, same date, refusing so to do, and giving reasons   773
Letter from Hon. B. P. Smith to W A Paxton, dated March 15, 1875,
asking for new proposition in the premises                              774
Rep]y of W. A. Paxton, same date, making proposition                      774
Letter from Hon. B. P. Smith to the Secretary of the Interior, same date,
subniitting above-named correspondence, and asking its reference to the
Board of Indian Comniissioners for its views                            774
Reply of Hon. C. Delano, dated March 17, 1875, inclosing recommendation
from the Board of Indian Commissioners, and authorizing contract for
additional supply                                                       775
Letter from F. H. Smith to Hon. C. Delano, containing above-named
recommendation                                                          775
Contract with W. A. Paxton for the additional supply, dated March 17,
1875                                                                    775
Contract with Seth Mabry, dated May 7, 1875, for supply of beef to Indian
agencies                                                                777
Contract with J. W. L. Slavens for pork and flour for Indian agencies          778
Correspondence concerning flour:
Letter from James Irwin to Hon. B. P. Smith, dated May 5, 1874, relative
to surplus of flour, &c                                                 780
Telegram from James Irwin to HOT). B. P. Smith, dated July 7, 1874, ask                   ing instructions in regard to beef, flour, and transportation           780
Telegram from Hon. B. P. Smith to James Irwin, asking price of XX flour
at Brian                                                                781
Reply of James Irwin, dated July 28, 1875, giving prices                  781
Letter from Hon. B. P. Smith to James Irwin, dated An gust 1, 1874, rela                   tive to arrangements made with J. H. Martia to furnish flour            781
Letter froni Hon. B. P. Smith to J. H. Martin, dated August 1, 1874, rela                  tive to same.                                                           781
Telegram from James Irwin to Hon. B. P. Smith, dated September 8, 1874,
asking that flour be sent immediately to Shoshone agency                 782
Letter from Jaines Irwin to Hon. B. P. Smith, dated September 14, 1874,
reporting details relative to flour and other supplies for the   Shoshone
and Bannack agency                                                      -            782
Letter from Hon. B. P. Smith to the Secretary of the Interior,       dated
August 4, 1874, relative to requesting Secretary of War to      authorize
Army officers to inspect Indian supplies                                             783
Letter from H. H. Clum to Captain A. K. Long, dated September 2, 1874,
relative to the latter's appointment as inspector of flour at Cheyenne.. 783
Letter from Hon. B. P. Smith to Barclay White, dated September 14, 1874,
to inspect flour to be delivered by 0. P. Hurford -...                 783
Telegram from Andrew K. Long to Hon. B. P. Smith, dated 0ctober 2,
1874, relative to flour being shipped through Cheyenne, by J. H. Martin,
without inspection                                                       784
Telegram from lIon. B. P. Smith to Captain A. K. Long, dated 0ctober 3,
1874, in reply to the above                                             784
Letter from Hon. B. P. Smith to Barclay White, dated October 10, 1874,
authorizing inspection of Martin's flour at Omaha                      784
Letter from Barclay White to Hon. B. P. Smith, dated July 19, 1875, rela       tive to inspection of flour for Red Cloud agency                       784
Transportation:
Contract with D. J. McCann, dated July 8, 1874, for transportation of sup                  plies and goods to Indian agencies                                       785
Efforts to ascertain tlie distance to Red Cloud agency                    786
Letter from Hon. B. P. Smith to L. S. Hayden, dated July 28, 1874, to pur                  chase an odometer                                                        786
Letter from Hon. B. P. Smith to S. H. Palmer, same date, relative to meas                  urement by the odometer                                                  786
Letter from S. H. Palmer to Hon. B. P. Smith, dated August 28, 1874, re                  porting progress with odometer                                           787 
851
Page.
Letter from S. H. ~almer to Hon. E. P. Smith, dated September 11, 1874,
reporting odometer out of order                                         787
Letter frbm J. J. Saville to Hon. E. P. Smith, dated November 9,  1874,
transmitting certificate of distance as indicated by odometer           787
The certificate, same date                                              787
Letter from Hon. I~. F. Smith to the Secretary of the Interior, dated No       vember 20, 1874, suggesting measurement of the distance under the
auspices of the War Department                                788
Letter from Hon. William W. Belkuap to the Secretary of the Interior
dated January 6, 1875, relative to a guide over the route      78~
Letter from H. R. Clum to D. J. McCann, dated January 11, 1875, request      ing him to furnish'a guide                                             788
Interruption of the survey-severity of the weather:
Letter froni Hon. William N\T. Belkuap to the Secretary of the Interior
dated January 19, 1875, transmitting telegram stating that the officer
making the measurement had been driven in                         - -. 789
The telegram dated January 12, 1875                                     789
Letter from William W. Belkuap to the Secretary of the Interior,  dated
February 6, 1875, inclosing copy of Lieutenant Winters's report,    an               nouncing ab~andonment of measurement                          789
Lieutenant Winters's report, dated January 16, 1875.          790
Indorsement by General E.0. C. Ord, on above-named report, dated Jan               uary 25, 1875                                                 790
Evidence as to distance:
Affidavit of Richard Dunn and others                                    790
Affidavit of J. Vigil and J. N. Basquez                                 791
The Appleton' building contract                                              792
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. E. P. Smith, dated August 17, 1874, in       closing proposition of A. R. Appleton to saw lumber and complete build      ings at Red Cloud agency......        792
Appleton's proposition0                                                 793
Letter from H. R. Clum to J. J. Saville, dated August 25, 1874, author               izing contract according to above-named proposition           793
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. E. P. Smith, inclosing contract above re               ferred to                                                     793
The contract, dated September 30, 1874                         794
Letter from A. R. Appleton to Dr. J. D. Bevier, dated October 5, 1875, rel               ative to contract                                             795
Letter from J. D. Bevier to Hon. E. P. Smith, dated October 21, 1874, rela               tive to same                                                  795
Letter from Hon. E. P. Smith to Bishop William H. Hare, dated Qctober
22, 1874, requesting his views on above-named contract        796
Reply of Bishop Hare, dated October 26, 1874                   797
Letter from Hon. E. P. Smith to J. J. Saville, dated October 29, 1874, dis               approving the contract                                        797
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. E. P. Smith, dated November 12, 1874,
inclosing Mr. Appleton's statement of the work done, and requesting in               structions                                                    797
Appleton's statement dated November 10, 1874                   798
Letter from Hon. F. P. Smith to J. J. Saville, dated December 21, 1874,
relative to above-named statement                            798
Letter from J. J. Saville to Hon. F. P. Smith, dated January 4, 1875 ex                plaining Appleton's statement                                799
Letter from Hon. F. P. Smith to J. J. Saville, dated March 10, 1875, rela                tive to payment for above-named work                         799
The Samuel Walker report:
Letter from Hon. C. Delano to Hon. Felix R. Brunot, dated February 4,
1875, relative to above-named report                         799
Reply to the above...                                         800
Letter from Thomas K. Cree to the Secretary of the Interior, inclosing copy
of the report                                                 800
The report                                                     801
The Bishop Hare report on the administration of affairs at Red Cloud and Whet          stone agencies                                                     807
Inspector Bevier's report on same subject....           819
Agent Saville's reply to Walker's report                                     822
Agent Howard's reply to Walker's report                                      824
Kemble and Alvord's report                                                   826 
852
Page.
Additional notes to same. --                                             828
Inspector Daniels's report                                               829
Talk with Red Cloud in Washington, May 28, l87S.                         832
Talk with Little Wound and Sitting Bull in Washington, June 5, 1875      837
Cattle weighed at Red Cloud agency August 11,1875                        839
Letter from Professor Marsh to Hon. T. C. Fletcher, dated October 8, 1875, rela  tive to Commissiouer Smith's testimony                                 840
Letter from Hon. E. P. Smith to same, dated October 13, 1875, in reply to Pro fessor Marsh's statements                                               840
ERRATA.
Page 28, line 8, for "Professor Hams's report," read "Bishop Hare's report.~~
Page,9,7, line 37, for "according to remembrance," read "according to my remembrance.
Page 231, line 46, for "out of seven," read "out of the seven."
Page 232, lin~2, for "small," read "smaller."
F)age 345, line 2, for "Irwin," read "~rvine."
Page 364, line 8 from bottom, for "assigned," read" filled."
Page 45:3, line 31, for "1d75," read "1874."
Page 517, line 19, for "fix my mind," read "fix it in my mind."
Page 533, last line but one from bottom, for "spoke," read "inch."
Page 533, last line from bottom, omit the word "and," before "double-trees."
Page 534, line 12, for "growing," read "grade."
Page 540, lines 11 and 13, for "20,000," read "200,000."
Page 541, line 13 from bottom, for "I get it for $ t.45," read "I get 45 cents for it."
Page 547, line 22, for "Lovejoy," read "E. Clay."
Page 578, line 1, omit the word "calves."
Page 582, line 32, for "Littletield," read "Littlefield's."
Page 587, line 32, for "I fonnd it," rea~l "if I found it."
Page 735, line 16, for "November," read "October."
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