R E PORT.
Education, Science, and Art
(Administration).
Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed,
31 July 1884.
LONDON:
PRINTED BY HENRY HANSARD AND SON,
PRINTERS TO THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
To be purchased, either directly or through any Bookseller, from any of the following Agents, viz.,
Messrs. HANSARD, 13, Great Queen-street, W.C., and 32, Abingdon-street, Westminster;
Messrs. EYRE and SPOTTISWOODE, East Harding-street, Fleet-street, and
Sale Office, House of Lords ;
Messrs. Adam and CHARLES BLACK, of Edinburgh;
312.
[Price I s. 8 d.]
Under 14 07.
11.-12. 8. 84.
30708
В
Е
Р
о
в
т
FROM THE
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON
EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART
(ADMINISTRATION);
TOGETHER WITH THE
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE,
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,
AND APPENDIX.
Gt. Brut. Parliament. Honde of commono, Select an.
I mittee on education, suence, and art administrations)
TR
2
on eau
robarle
Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, -
31 July 1884.
CO
.
LONDON:
PRINTED BY HENRY HANSARD AND SON,
PRINTERS TO THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
To be purchased, either directly or through any Bookseller, from any of the following Agents, viz.,
Messrs. HANSARD, 13, Great Queen-street, W.C., and 32, Abingdon-street, Westminster ;
Messrs Eyre and SPOTTISWOODE, East Harding-street, Fleet-street, and
Sale Office, House of Lords ;
Messrs. Adam and CHARLES BLACK, of Edinburgh ;
Messrs. ALEXANDER Tiron and Co., or Messrs. Hodges, Figgis, and Co., of Dublin.
312.
[ ii
]
Ordered,--[Friday, 8th February 1884]:-THAT the Select Committee be re-appointed
to consider how the Ministerial responsibility, under which the Votes for Education,
Science, and Art are administered, may be best secured.
THAT the Select Committee do consist of Seventeen Members,
Committee nominated of,
Sir John Lubbock.
Mr. Errington.
Mr. Salt.
Viscount Lymington.
Mr. Raikes.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Viscount Emlyn.
Mr. Dawson
Mr. Samuel Morley.
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Herbert.
Mr. J. N. Richardson.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Pell.
Mr. Sclater-Booth.
Mr. Jesse Collings.
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.
That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers, and Records.
THAT Five be the Quorum of the Committee.
Ordered,—[ Monday, 28th April 1884]:-THAT Mr. Dawson be discharged from
further attendance, and that Mr. Sexton be added to the Committee.
Ordered,—[Thursday, 8th May 1884]:-THAT Mr. Salt be discharged from further
attendance, and that Lord Algernon Percy be added to the Committee.
--
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REPORT
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE -
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
APPENDIX .
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REPORT.
THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to consider how the Ministerial
Responsibility, under which the VOTES for EDUCATION, SCIENCE, and Art
are administered, may be best secured ;--Have agreed to the following
ᎡEPOᎡᎢ :-
1. Your COMMITTEE have examined the present and several former Presi-
dents and Vice-Presidents of the Council, Secretaries to the Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland, Permanent Heads of the Education Department in London,
the present Resident Commissioner of National Education in Ireland, and also
other Gentlemen conversant with the matters referred to your Committee.
They have also considered the Evidence taken before the Select Committee
appointed in 1865 and 1866 to inquire into the Constitution of the Committee
of Council on Education.
2. The first question considered by your Committee was whether Primary
Education in Great Britain and in Ireland should be placed under one Super-
vising Minister. Your Committee are satisfied that under present circumstances
it would be undesirable to disturb the existing arrangements as to the Ministerial
Responsibility for Primary Education in Ireland.
They are also of opinion that Primary Education in England and Scotland
should be under the control of the same Minister.
3. The Lord President of the Council, almost always a Peer, is nominally tlie
head of the Education Department for Great Britain.
The Vice President represents the Department in the House of Commons, and
really transacts almost all the business requiring authority above that of the See Sir Francis
permanent officials.
Sandford's Evi-
Your Committee are of opinion that this arrangement is neither logical nor dence,
convenient. They see no sufficient reason why there should be any more real
connection between the Education Department and the Privy Council than
between the Board of Trade and the Privy Council ; but as it may be con-
venient that the Minister for Education should have occasionally the assistance,
whether as to English or Scotch Education, of other Privy Councillors specially
suranioned for consultation with him, they recommend that a Board of (or
Committee of Council for) Education should be constituted under a President,
who should be the real as well as nominal Minister, in this respect holding a
position like that of the President of the Board of Trade. Hitherto there has
been a separate Scotch Department of the Privy Council, and your Committee
for Scotland, responsible to the Minister of Education.
Whether the Minister of Education should always be a Member of the Cabinet
or of the House of Commons, and what should be his salary, are questions
upon which it is hardly within the province of your Committee to make absolute
recommendations. They think, however, that the duties of this Minister should
be recognised as not less important than those of some of the Secretaries of
State.
The Minister of Education should have the assistance of a Parliamentary
Secretary, able to sit in either House of Parliament.
While on the whole preferring the plan they have suggested, your Committee
do not deny that there are objections to the constitution of an administrative
department in the form of a Board which has no real existence. The Permanent
Secretary and his assistants bind by their signature, nominally the Board, really,
· 312.
a 2
the
[
]
iv
the political chief. This system, it must be admitted, tends to lessen the direct
control and responsibility to Parliament and the public, which is apparent in
the office of a Secretary of State.
4. The second question discussed by your Committee was whether, and if so
what, authority should be exercised by the Minister of Education over Endowed
Schools. Your Committee recommend that when schemes for Endowed
Schools, whether in England or in Scotland, have come into operation, the
Minister of Education should have full authority to call on the Governing
Bodies to furnish him with such reports and information as he may require,
and to direct any inquiries or inspection to be made which he may deen
necessary.
5. As to Public Schools, vour Committee recommend that the Minister of
Education should be authorised to call for such reports and information as he
may require from the Governing Bodies, but they are not of opinion that his
powers should extend to directing inspection.
6. With respect to the Universities in Great Britain receiving grants charged
on the Votes of Parliament or on the Consolidated Fund, the Minister should be
authorised to require from them an annual report in such form as he may
order.
7. Your Committee have not taken any evidence as to Reformatory and Indus-
trial Schools, considering that these have so recently formed the subject of an
inquiry by a Royal Commission, the Report and Recommendations of which are
before Parliament. They see no reason for altering the present responsibility
for Workhouse Schools, or for the Primary Schools connected with the Army,
the Navy, or the Marines. The responsibility for the administration of the
Voies for Military and Naval Colleges do not appear to come within the reference
to your Committee.
8. Your Committee see no reason to disturb the existing arrangements as to
the supervision of the Science and Art Department.
9. There are various miscellaneous Votes for Science and Art, such as those
for Scientific Research, distributed through the Royal Society, Votes for
Meteorology, and Votes in aid of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, and the
Royal Irish Academy. These Votes, your Committee think, should be moved
by the Minister of Education, and reports when necessary should be made
to him.
10. Your Committee do not propose to bring the British Museum and the
National Gallery into closer relations with Her Majesty's Government than
those now existing: with this exception that, in their opinion, the Minister of
Education and the Parliamentary Secretary should be ex officio Trustees of each
of those institutions. The President of the Council, your Committee notice,
is now an ex officio Trustee of the British Museum. The House of Commons
would then look to the Education Department for explanations when the Votes
for the British Museum and the National Gallery are discussed in Committee of
Supply.
TIT
31 July 1884.
[
]
v
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTE E.
Wednesday, 27th February 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT :
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. Herbert.
Sir John Lubbock.
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Salt.
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER was called to the Chair.
The Committee deliberated.
[Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock.
Tuesday, 4th March 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER in the Chair.
Lord Emlyn.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Lord Lymington.
Sir John Lubbock.
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Pell.
Mr. Raikes.
Mr. Herbert.
Mr. Sclater-Booth.
Sir Francis Sandford was examined.
Adjourned tiil Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock.
Tuesday, 11th March 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER in the Chair.
Mr. Salt.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Herbert.
Sir John Lubbock.
Mr. Pell.
Lord Lymington.
Mr. Sclater-Booth.
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Raikes.
Mr. W. E. Forster (a Member of the House) was examined.
[Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock.
312.
a 3
vi
PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE
Tuesday, 18th March 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT :
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER in the Chair.
Mr. James Campbell.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Lord Lymington.
Mr. Herbert.
Mr. Peli.
Lord Emlyn.
The Lord Carlingford (a Member of the Upper House and Lord George F. Hamilton
(a Member of the House) were severally examined.
[Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock.
Tuesday, 25th March 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER in the Chair.
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Herbert.
Lord Lymington.
Sir John Lubbock.
Mr. Raikes.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Pell.
Sir Patrick Keenan and Mr. Carmichael Taylor were severally examined.
[Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock.
Tuesday, 1st April 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT :
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER in the Chair.
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Herbert.
Sir John Lubbock.
Lord Lymington.
Mr. Raikes.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Mundella (a Member of the House) was examined.
[Adjourned till Tuesday, 29th April, at Twelve o'clock.
Tuesday, 29th April 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT :
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER in the Chair.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Sexton.
Mr. Herbert.
Mr. Pell.
Mr. James Campbell.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Patrick Cumin and the Earl Spencer (a Member of the Upper House) were severally
examined.
[Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock.
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
vii
Tuesday, 6th May 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT :
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER in the Chair.
Lord Lymington.
Mr. Herbert.
Mr. James Campbell.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Sexton.
Mr. George 0. Trevelyan (a Member of the House), Sir Michael Hicks Beach (a
Member of the House), and Mr. Douglas Richmond, were severally examined.
[Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock.
-
Tuesday, 13th Muy 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER in the Chair.
Mr. James Campbell,
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Lord Algernon Percy.
Mr. Errington.
Mr. Herbert.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Sir John Lubbock.
Mr. Sexton.
Mr. Edward A. Bond, Professor Huxley, and Mr. Frederick W. Burton, were severally
examined.
[Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock.
Tuesday, 20th May 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER in the Chair.
Mr. Pell.
Mr. Herbert.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Lord Algernon Percy.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. James Campbell.
The Rev. W. E. Smith, Lieutenant-General Sir P. C. Beauchamp Walker, Mr. Hugh
Owen, and Mr. Leonard Courtney (a Member of the House), were severally examined.
[Adjourned till Tuesday, 24th June, at Twelve o'clock.
Tuesday, 24th June 1884.
N/
VEMBERS PRESENT :
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER in the Chair.
Mr. Sclater-Booth.
Lord Algernon Percy.
Lord Lymington.
Mr. James Campbell.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Herbert.
The Committee deliberated.
[Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock.
312.
a 4
viii
PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE
Tuesday, 1st July 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER in the Chair.
Sir John Lubbock.
Lord Lymington.
Mr. Herbert.
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Errington.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Lord Algernon Percy.
Mr. Sclater-Booth.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
The Committee deliberated.
[Adjourned till Thursday, 31st instant, at Twelve o'clock.
Thursday, 31st July 1884.
-
MEMBERS PRESENT :
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER in the Chair.
Sir John Lubbock.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Errington.
Lord Algernon Percy,
DRAFT REPORT, proposed by the Chairman, read the first time, as follows :
See Sir Francis
Sandford's
Evidence, Q. 36.
“1. Your Committee have examined the present and several former Presidents and
Vice-Presidents of the Council, Secretaries to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Permanent
Heads of the Education Department in London, the present Resident Commissioner of
National Education in Ireland, and also other Gentlemen conversant with the matters
referred to your Committee. They have also considered the Evidence taken before the
Select Committee appointed in 1865 and 1866 to inquire into the Constitution of the
Committee of Council on Education.
“2. The first question considered by your Committee was whether Primary Education
in Great Britain and in Ireland should be placed under one Supervising Minister.
Your Committee are satisfied that under present circumstances it would be undesirable
to disturb the existing arrangements as to the Ministerial Responsibility for Primary
Education in Ireland.
“ They are also of opinion that Primary Education in England and Scotland should
be under the control of the same Minister.
“3. The Lord President of the Council, almost always a Peer, is nominally the head
of the Education Department for Great Britain.
“The Vice-President represents the Department in the House of Commons, and really
transacts almost all the business requiring authority above that of the permanent
officials.
“ Your Committee are of opinion that this arrangement is neither logical nor con-
venient. They see no sufficient reason why there should be any more real connection
between the Education Department and the Privy Council than between the Board of
Trade and the Privy Council; but as it may be convenient that the Minister for
Education should have occasionally the assistance, whether as to English or Scoteli
Education, of other Privy Councillors specially summoned for consultation with him,
they recommend that a Board of (or Committee of Council for) Education should be
constituted under a President, who should be the real as well as nominal Minister, in this
respect holding a position like that of the President of the Board of Trade. Hitherto
there has been a separate Scotch Department of the Privy Council; and your Committee
consider that it would be well to have a distinct Permanent Secretary appointed for
Scotland, responsible to the Minister of Education.
" Whether the Minister of Education should always be a Member of the Cabinet or of
the House of Commons, and what should be his salary, are questions upon which it is
hardly within the province of your Committee to make absolute recommendations. They
think,
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
..
think, however, that the duties of this Minister should be recognised as not less important
than those of some of the Secretaries of State.
« The Minister of Education should have the assistance of a Parliamentary Secretary,
able to sit in either House of Parliament.
“4. The second question discussed by your Committee was whether, and if so what,
authority should be exercised by the Minister of Education over Endowed Schools. Your
Committee recommend that when schemes for Endowed Schools have come into operation,
whether in England or in Scotland, the Minister of Education should have full authority
to call on the Governing Bodies to furnish him with such reports and information as he
may require, and to direct any inquiries or inspection to be made which he may deem
necessary.
65. As to Public Schools, your Committee recommend that the Minister of Education
should be authorised to call for such reports and information as he may require from the
Governing Bodies, but they are not of opinion that his powers should extend to directing
inspection.
66 6. With respect to the Universities in Great Britain receiving grants charged on the
Votes of Parliament or on the Consolidated Fund, the Minister should be authorised to
require from them an annual report in such form as he may order.
667. Your Committee have not taken any evidence as to Reformatory and Industrial
Schools, considering that these schools have so recently formed the subject of an inquiry
by a Royal Commission, the Report and Recommendations of which are before Parlia-
ment. They see no reason for altering the present responsibility for Workhouse Schools,
or for the Primary Schools connected with the Army, the Navy or the Marines. The
responsibility for the administration of the Votes for Military and Naval Colleges do not
appear to come within the reference to your Committee.
-8. Your Committee see no reason to disturb the existing arrangements as to the
supervision of the Science and Art Department.
“9. There are various miscellaneous Votes for Science and Art, such as those for
Scientific Research distributed through the Royal Society ; Votes for Meteorology; and
Votes in aid of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, and the Royal Irish Academy. These
Votes, your Committee think, should be moved by the Minister in charge of Education,
and Reports when necessary should be made to him.
“ 10. Your Committee do not propose to bring the British Museum and the National
Gallery into closer relations with Her Majesty's Government than those now existing :
with this exception that, in their opinion, the Minister of Education and the Parliamentary
Secretary should be ex officio Trustees of each of those institutions. The President of
the Council, your Committee notice, is now an ex officio Trustee of the British Museum.
The House of Commons would then look to the Education Department for explanations
when the Votes for the British Museum and the National Gallery are discussed in
Committee of Supply."
Motion made, and Question, That this Report be now read a second time, paragraph
by paragraph,-put, and agreed to.
· Paragraphs 1—2, agreed to.
Paragraph 3, amended, and agreed to.
Paragraphs 4–9, agreed to.
Paragraph 10.-Amendment proposed to leave out the last three lines of the paragraph.
-(Sir John Lubbock).—Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the paragraph.—Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.-Paragraph agreed to.
Question, That this Report, as amended, be the Report of the Committee to the House,
--put, and agreed to.
Ordered, To Report, together with Minutes of Evidence, and an Appendix.
312.
[ X ]
LIST OF WITNESSES.
Tuesday, 4th March 1884.
PAGE
Sir Francis Sandford, K.C.B.
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Tuesday, 11th March 1884.
Right Hon. William Edward Forster, M.P. - - -
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Tuesday, 18th March 1884.
Right Hon. Lord Carlingford, K.T. -
Right Hon. Lord George Francis Hamilton, M.P. -
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Tuesday, 25th March 1884.
Sir Patrick Joseph Keenan, K.C.M.G., C.B.
Mr. J. Carmichael Taylor - - -
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Tuesday, 1st April 1884.
Right Hon. Anthony John Mundella, M.P. - - -
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Tuesday, 29th April 1884.
Mr. Patrick Cumin -
Right Hon. Earl Spencer, K.G.
, K.G. :::::::::
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Tuesday, 6th May 1884.
Right Hon. George O. Trevelyad, M.P. - - -
Right Hon. Sir Michael Hicks Beach, Bart., M.P. -
Mr. Douglas Richmond
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Tuesday, 13th May 1884.
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Mr. Edward Augustus Bond, LL.D. -
Professor T. H. Huxley, LL.D. -
Mr. Frederick William Burton, F.S.A. -
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Tuesday, 20th May 1884.
Rey. W. E. Smith, B.A.
Lieutenant General Sir Beauchamp Walker, K.C.B.
Mr. Hugh Owen - -
Mr. Leonard H. Courtney, M.P. -
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121
126
128
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1
MINUTES OF EVIDEN C E.
Tuesday, 4th March 1884.
DEMBERS PRESENT:
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Viscount Emlyn.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Herbert.
Sir John Lubbock.
Viscount Lymington.
Mr. Pell.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Raikes.
Mr. Sclater-Booth.
MR. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, IN THE CHAIR.
Sir FRANCIS SANDFORD, K.C.B., called in; and Examined.
Chairman.
Chairman-continued.
1. You have been for many years, I think, secretaries and a body of examiners for the Englislı
in the Education Department ?--Yes; since the side, and one assistant secretary, and a small body
year 1848.
of examiners for the Scotch side. The architect
2. Will you be good enough to tell us how was the same for both countries. We had a
long you were Chief Secretary ?--Since the be- separate Committee of Council and separate
ginning of 1870.
counsel for England and Scotland. As for the
3. And you are now shortly going to another lower part of the office, all the clerks' work was
department ?-I am
conducted in common by the same body of clerks.
4. Since you became Chief Secretary, what im- 7. And that is the present organisation ?-It is.
portant changes have taken place in your duties? 8. Then, going upwards, what are the arrange-
-The changes that have taken place have mainly ments as to the political heads of the Depart-
been caused by the passing of the Scotch Act of ment?- My duty as secretary was to communi-
1872, which created an independent department of cate directly with the Vice President on all ques-
the office for the management of Scotch business. tions, with one exception, viz., that of patronage.
In the year 1874, being then Secretary of the 9. All the questions currently arising, as to
Education Department, I was made also secre- the alteration of the Code for instance, or as to
tary of the establishments at South Kensington dealing with individual cases as they arise, you
Since I joined in 1870 there has also been a con- took to the Vice President?-I did.
siderable increase of the work of the Department 10. The only questions which you took directly
under the Endowed Schools Acts, passed both to the Lord President, passing by the Vice Pre-
for England and Scotland; though, as a special sident, were questions of patronage?—Quite so.
officer, my successor, Mr. Cumin, was appointed 11. The Lord President, I think, during your
to conduct the endowed schools work in England, time has always been a Peer, has he not?-Always,
I have seen comparatively very little of it. The since 1870. In fact, with the exception of Lord
Scotch work of this character has, however, John Russell in 1854, the President has always
passed through my hands.
been a Peer.
5. Dealing first with primary education proper, 12. And the Vice President has always been
except as a result of the Scotch division in 1872, a member of the House of Commons ?--Always.
your duties have been pretty much the same since 13. When was the office of Vice President of
you were appointed ? - Pretty much the same. the Council for Education first constituted?-In
6. Would you be good enough to explain to the year 1856, by an Order in Council of the 25th
us how the Education Office at Whitehall is of February, and a Bill that was passed im-
organised, in respect first to the management of mediately afterwards.
primary education ?-Speaking of the organisa- 14. Is the business in connection with Scot-
tion of the office proper, I was secretary land divided between the Lord President and
both of the English Department, and of the the Vice President upon the same footing as the
Scotch Department. There were three assistant business in respect to England?-Exactly.
0.51.
A
15. 13
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
4 March 1884:1
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[Continued.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
15. Is the business in respect of South Ken- Privy Council suminoned by the messenger ?-
sington also upon the same footing ?-There is No.
this difference: that there is a board meeting 29. Are you clerk to the Council in those
held at South Kensington, sometimes twice, but cases ?-No, I am secretary to the Committee.
generally once a week. The Board is attended 30. Have you the same power that the clerk
sometimes by the Lord President, sometimes by of the Council has; are you in lieu of the clerk
the Vice President, and occasionally by both. All of the Council on those occasions - The clerk of
questions come up there for solution. If it is the Council has never taken any part in our
an important question and the Lord President is Committees; we hare no contact with the clerk
absent, the Vice President would send the papers of the Council in our Councils.
down to the Council Office; but as a rule the 31. Are you to the Committee what the clerk
division is very much the same, except that they is to the Council ?-I presume so, but I do not
may meet with a Board round them once a week. know what the clerk is to the Council.
16. When you speak of the Board do you 32. Going back to the division of the duties
mean the Committee of Council, or do you mean between the Lord President and the Vice
a Board containing people who are not Privy President, you say that you take everything
Councillors ?-I mean a Board composed of the except questions of patronage to the Vice Pre-
executive officers of the Department.
sident ?-Yes.
17. Then that Board is presided over as it 33. And you take questions of patronage to the
may happen by either the Vice President or the Lord President ?--Yes, directly.
Lord President?-By the Lord President, by 34. When you take the ordinary business to
the Vice President, or in their absence by the the Vice President, does he mark it on to the
secretary, for the conduct of such formal business Lord President, or do you accept the decision of
as he feels himself justified in discharging. the Vice President as the conclusive decision ?-
18. Going back to the English and Scotch If he sends it back with a minute settling the
education business, does the Committee of question, I ask no questions; I carry out his
Council ever meet?-From time to time. They minute. I do not know, of course, whether or not
rarely meet now a days save when legislation is in the Vice President has consulted the Lord Pre-
prospect.
sident. Occasionally he marks a paper on to
19. Is it the universal rule that the Lord the Lord President, and sometimes papers come
President must be in the chair on that occasion, back with a minute of the Lord President; some-
or does the Vice President ever take the chair? times, I am aware, because I have been present
The members generally assemble for a formal at the discussions between them, that they confer
meeting of the Committee of Council on Educa- upon the question, but even then the Vice Pre-
tion in the Lord President's room; but sometimes sident's minute is possibly the only one on the
informal meetings of members specially summoned paper.
to advise on matters in progress, meet in the 35. You very rarely see the initial of the Lord
Vice President's room. That, however, would President? --Not very frequently.
not constitute a formal meeting of the Committee 36. Once in a hundred decisions ?-Perhaps
of Council. The Lord President takes the chair about once on a hundred of my references to the
when the Education Council meets formally. Vice President; but I should be sorry to com-
20. Then the summonses to the Privy Coun- mit myself to any definite propoition.
cillors are regular summonses to a Council when 3 7. Then, e converso, when you take papers to
the Lord President is in the chair ?-Yes. the Lord President which deal with questions of
21. When the Lord President is not present patronage, do you ever see any consultation with
the summonses are informal, I suppose ?-Quite the Vice President appear upon the papers ?--No;
I know it does take place now, but the minute
22. You have said that the Committee of would come back to me," I appoint Mr. So-and-
Council generally met before some legislative so to be inspector or examiner," with the Lord
business of importance was settled; before the President's initial.
Code is settled every year does the Coinmittee 38. And therefore if the Vice President is con-
also meet?-Not necessarily.
sulted, no official record of it remains ?--No.
23. Does the Committee meet more frequently 39. Has the process which you have described
for English or for Scotch business ?-I think that been common to all Presidents and Vice Presi-
during the last two years the Scotch Committee dents since you have been secretary, or has there
has met more frequently than the English Com- been any difference in the arrangements between
mittee.
them ?-I think that when the Act of 1970 was
24. The Scotch Committee is a different Com- being framed, and in its early years of administra-
mittee from the English Committee ?- Yes. tion, there was perhaps more frequent reference
25. Speaking very generally, how often does from the Vice President to the Lord President,
the Committee meet for English business ? -I do that is to say from Mr. Forster to Lord Ripon,
not think it has met very often during these last than there has been of late years.
two years.
40. And as to patronage, has that always been
26. Does it meet once a year?-Yes, perhaps. conducted as it is conducted now ?-I think so,
27. And how often does the Committee meet except that now it is understood, I believe,
for Scotch business ?-The Scotch Committee that the Vice President is consulted as to patron-
has assembled perhaps twice a year in formal age.
meetings. There is no record kept of those 41. More than he used to be ?-More than he
meetings.
used to be.
28. They are not like ordinary meetings of the 42. In originating business, does the Lord
President
80.
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
34
·
4 March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[Continued.
ment, whom Education at present the Minister,
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
President himself ever start a question ?--I some- the department we can ask you the more readily
times hear of questions from the Lord President what, from your long experience, you think are
for the first time, but whether they were started the advantages and disadvantages of the superior
to him before that by the Vice President, I have organisation which you have described ?-Look-
no means of knowing.
ing at it from the point of view of an officer of
43. I suppose that you frequently hear of the Department the great advantage always
questions from the Vice President in the ordinary seemed to me to be this: that the Department
departmental business ?--Frequently. I am in is represented in the House of Lords by a
daily, almost hourly, contact with the Vice Pre- minister of the very highest rank, and always of
sident, and therefore I see and hear much great personal distinction, and necessarily of
more from him than I do from the Lord President. course a member of the Cabinet. The Vice
44. When the Lord President starts a ques President, on the other hand, occupies in
tion, does he send it to you through the Vice the House of Commons a position, I think,
President, or does it come to you directly ? — somewhat superior to that of an Under Secre-
He speaks to me directly about it very often. tary of State, or of a Parliamentary secretary
45. Have you had much experience in other of a department. He is necessarily a Privy
departments of the public service ?-I was for Councillor. His duty is to move very large
one year in the Colonial Office.
estimates, and to meet all those questions
46. Comparing your experience in that year which come up week by week in the House of
and your knowledge of the Colonial Office Commons in these days. It is of advantage to
business, or the business of other departments the Department to have, in the second place in
with the arrangements of the Education Depart. the office a person who, if we may judge from
ment, whom would you practically call the the past, is in such a Parliamentary position as
Minister for Education at present?-I should to be very generally on the eve of becoming a
fancy that the Lord President is the Minister, Cabinet Minister. Therefore, for conducting the
I may say de jure, and the Vice President very business of an office in which so many burning
inuch the Minister de facto. The Order in questions arise now-a-days, we have the advan-
Council under which the Department is consti- tage of tio ministers, one of the highest and one
tuted certainly makes the Lord President the of very high position.
Minister of Education, as it places the Depart. 51. That you state as being the advantage; if
ment under the Lord President, “who is to be you have any reasons on the other side will you
assisted by the Vice President, who shall act state them ?-I cannot help feeling that there is
under his direction, and for him in his absence.” a divided sense of responsibility, arising from
So, both the Whitehall and South Kensington this dual control, and that the outside public
Establishments are placed “ under the orders of do not know who is the Minister of Education.
the Lord President.” But things have changed 52. Would you not go a little further than
a good deal since the date of the Order of that, and say that the outside public look upon
1856.
the Vice President as the Minister?-I believe
47. Do you think that that state of things has they do as a rule. He has an immense amouut
been brought about by the fact of the Vice Pre- of business; he is in daily contact with inspec-
sident being always in the House of Commons tors ; he reads their reports; he is in contact
and the Lord President practically always in the also with all the leading people interested in
House of Lords ?-I should think very much so. educational questions throughout the country;
A very large sum of money is administered by and he can devote much more time to them by
the Department, and since 1870 questions reason of his not being occupied as the Lord
have turned so much upon local organisation, President necessarily is, especially when he is the
and the powers of local bodies, which are more Leader of the House of Lords, with a great
interesting I think in the House of Commons deal of other business, Council Office business,
than in the House of Lords, and which inore agricultural business, and so on. The Vice
naturally come up in the House of Commons President may perhaps feel that though he has
than in the House of Lords, that the Vice Presi- the duties of the Minister of Education to per-
dent has gradually assumed a higher status than form, he does not hold the recognised position as
before.
such.
48. Do many questions about education arise 53. Is there no anomaly, in your opinion, in
in the House of Lords ?-Not very inany, but connection with the patronage of the office that
from time to time they do arise. In the House the minister who practically does the work has
of Lords the discussions generally relate to the nothing to do with the appointment of the agents
great extension of the educational system, such who act under him ?-It may look anomalous,
as were raised by Lord Norton. That seems but I must say that if I were Vice President of
the great question in the House of Lords just the Council I should be very glad to be free from
now.
the exercise of patronage.
49. On a question like that the Lord Presi- 54. From the general objection which every-
dent would, I presume, be well informed, even body has to exercising patronage ?-Partly for
although he takes so small a part in the adminis- that reason, and partly for another, if I may say
trative business ?-Certainly, because he takes a so before a Committee of the House of Commons.
very great interest and share in the production It has been said, Why should not the Minister
of a new code, and in the yearly revision of the select the officers to carry out his own views? Now
code.
I do not suppose there is any subject dealt with in
50. You have described the division of busi- the House of Commons in which it would be more
ness, I think, very fully. As you are leaving advisable to keep free from political leanings.
0.51.
One
52. Umowy who is and that they arising
A 2
SIINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
4 March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
Continued.
Chairman--continued.
Chairman--continued.
One cannot help feeling that the two systems, the the presidency of the Education Department
voluntary system and the Board School system, you run the risk, I think, of having an inferior
are very much identified, in public opinion, with representative of the Department in the House
the two opposite 'parties in the House; and I of Commons than you have now; because if the
think that it would be fatal to us if a breath of Lord President or President of the Education
suspicion that appointments were made on political Board is in the House of Lords lie will be repre-
grounds, or to carry out the views of a Minister, sented by a Parliamentary secretary in the
ever attached to the appointment of inspectors. House of Commons, I assume, who, as I say, is
55. The plain English, I suppose, is that a Peer understood to hold not su high a position as the
is less likely to job than a Member of the House Lord President and the Vice President. That
of Commons ?-Yes, I would say so; I think is the danger.
there is less danger of the imputation, which I 61. You mean that if the Education Depart-
should dread as much as the reality.
ment was organised like the Board of Trade, in
56. On the other hand, you do not attach much which case generally the Minister is in the House
importance to the person who is, as you have de- of Commons and occasionally in the House of
scribed, practically responsible for the admi- Lords, when the latter arrangement is in force
nistration of the business not having the choice the Department will not be so strongly repre-
of his own agents ?-I really do not. From the sented in the House of Commons ?- That is my:
great confidence which has been placed in the opinion.
secretary for so many years by our successive 62. On the other hand where the President is
chiefs, the secretary has had a very large voice like the President of the Board of Trade usually
in the appointment of examiners in the office. in the House of Cominons, he is far more fre-
My chiefs have said: “ The conduct of the quently a Cabinet Minister, is he not, than the
business depends mainly upon you, and we shall Vice President of the Committee of Council for
be happy to consider very favourably your Education ?-Certainly ; the Vice President for
recommendations so long as you keep within the Education has been only once in the Cabinet.
very strict lines laid down by the Treasury for 63. And therefore in the majority of cases the
those appointments, whether inside or outside Department would become more strongly repre-
the office.” The inspectorships I have had some, sented in the House of Commons than it is now?
but less voice in; but so long as the Vice Presi- If you make it essential that the head of the
dent gets sent to him by the Lord President a Education Department must be in the Cabinet,
man of high University distinction,; whom the then I think there might be advantages in fixing
Lord President has selected after strict inquiry as the responsibility of the Department upon one
to his temper, his tact, and his bearing, I cannot Minister.
think that it makes much difference to the Vice 64. But even if the head of the Department
President that he has not had much voice in the was as frequently in the House of Commons as
selection.
the President of the Board of Trade, would not
57. The organisation of the office, as you have that practically bring about very much what you
described it, practically makes it all but essential have suggested ?--It might.
that the head of the Department should be a 65. What would be your objection to such an
Peer, and that tbe under Minister should be a arrangement as that?--The main objection, the
Member of the House of Commons; you have one that I have indicated, is, that when a Peer
nothing like that, I suppose, in any other depart- was the head of the Department, the representa-
ment of the public service ?--No.
tion of the Department in the House of Commons
58. There are committees of the Privy Coun- would not be so strong as it necessarily is at
cil in which a different practice prevails. Take, present.
for instance, the Board of Trade; the Board of 66. The representative of the Department in
Trade is a Committee of the Privy Council in the House of Commons being now invariably a
which the head of the Department must be a Privy Councillor ?-A Privy Councillor and a
Privy Councillor, but he is generally a Member man of high standing besides.
of the House of Commons, and has all the powers
of an ordinary head of a Department; and that
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Department may, if it is thought necessary, be
represented in the House of Lords by a Peer of 67. You mentioned, I think, that your con-
minor importance in the Department. Comparing ilection with the Educational Department of the
those two systems, do you think that the educa- Government commenced in 1848?-I joined the
tional arrangement is better than the Board of office in 1848.
Trade arrangement?— The Board of Trade, on 68. How far did the Government then aid
the other hand, may have its head in the House in education ; did it only contribute ?-It con-
of Lords.
tributed. It offered to the schools that came
59. I said that he was generally in the House under inspection certain grants, and its duty was
of Commons, but be may be in the House of not, till 1870, to insist upon education spreading.
Lords, as was the case not very long ago ?-I As Mr. Lowe said before a Committee of this
remember.
House in 1866, he had never understood that the
60. As between those two organisations, which duty of the Department was to extend educa-
would you prefer?- If you had your representa- tion throughout the country.
tive of the Education Department in the House 69. When the first Vote was given for aid to
of Commons, you could no doubt be thoroughly schools throughout the country it was an ex-
well represented in the House of Lords. On ceedingly small Vote, was it not?-£. 30,000.
the other hand, unless you exclude a Peer from 70. And it was a grant in aid of schools simply
as
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
4 March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[Continued.
So.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
as a contribution ?--Mainly at first to build of responsibility on the part of the two president
schools.
officers ? - Quite so.
71. And when the Department was constituted 85. Are not the Committee of Council
in its present form, was it not almost the whole managing the English Department, and the
function of the Department to aid existing schools, Committee of Council managing the Scotch De-
and not to promote education generally ?-Quite partment very much of a myth? I have the
honour to belong to one of them ?- They are
72. Since then it has risen to enormous pro- not often called together, certainly; but when
portions, has it not ?--Yes.
Bills are thought of or are in progress, al-
* 73. What was the Vote last year? - The Vote though there may not be formal meetings of the
for elementary education in England and Scut- committee frequently, there are very often
land was 3,400,000 1., and there was a further informal meetings.
Vote for Science and Art, amounting to 365,6901. 86. Not very often ?-Sometimes whilst a Bill
74. And there was another large Vote for is on the stocks there are pretty frequent
Ireland, with which you have nothing to do?- meetings of the members of the committee.
Yes.
87. I think the Scotch Act came into operation
75. Do you think that if you were organising in the year 1872; I think there was only one
a department to deal with the great aid and occasion on which I did not answer a summons
supervision which the Government at present to an Education Committee, and I do not recollect
give to education, you would start upon the having met three times in the office during that
same system as the Committee of Council ?-I period. Therefore, practically what is called the
think so. I would have a committee, certainly Education Committee has not very strong
76. Would you have two different officers, a functions ?-1o; but there have not been many
President and a Vice President, or would you great administrative changes in Scotland of late
have one responsible Minister?—One responsible years.
Minister, I should say.
77. You stated that the present action of the
Chairman.
Department is that the Vice President practically 88. I think you said in answer to me that the
deals with all questions excepting those relating summonses to these informal meetings are not
to patronage; you are aware that in the evidence in the common form, “Let the messenger”
given before the Committee of 1865 and 1866, and so on, but are mere notes ?- They are mere
various of the Lords President who were examined notes.
did not take that view ? --Yes, but there was a
Sir Lyon Playfair.
great diversity of opinion in the views expressed
by the different Lords President.
89. Are there not a number of schools carrying
78. There was a strong unanimity of opinion on elementary education outside your Depart-
amongst the Presidents, and great diversity of ment altogether, such as the industrial schools,
opinion amongst the Vice Presidents, was there which I see a Commission has lately recommended
not?-Yes.
should be brought into contact with your Depart-
79. One President of the Council, I think, said, ment ?--Yes, as to the inspection of education,
“ I am the Minister of Education, and the Vice 90. And the workhouse schools are outside
President simply stands in the relation to me of your Department too, are they not?-Yes.
an Under Secretary of State”?-Yes.
91. The Army and Navy schools also, I think,
80. Would it not be likely to be the case again are outside you altogether ?-Yes.
if there was a Lord President of very strong 92. And is there not one great part of the
educational feelings and proclivities, that he educational work of the country outside the
might assume duties which at present have officer whom you call the Minister of Education,
fallen very much upon the Vice President? the Vice President, that is to say, the whole of
Quite so.
the education of Ireland ? — Yes.
81. Might not such divided responsibility 93. Is not that conducted in absence of com-
under such circumstances lead to unfortunate pulsory education on an entirely different system
action in the Department?- In what way? Would from that which prevails in this country ?--I
it be more so than if there were a very strongly believe there is no compulsory education in
educational minister as Vice President?
Ireland.
82. For instance, would you be any longer able
94. Therefore you have one scheme of educa-
to carry out the division which you say now tion going on in Great Britain, and another scheme
of education for which the Privy Council is not in
exists, and in accordance with which, on all
the least responsible, viz., the education of
educational questions, you consult the Vice Pre-
Ireland ?-Yes.
sident, and merely on questions of patronage you
95. Do you not think that it is an anomaly, that
consult the Lord President?-I assume that that
whilst there is said to be a Vice President of the
would be a matter of domestic arrangement by
Council acting as a Minister of Education, he
the Lord President directing what papers and
does not administer education in the industrial
what points were to come on to him.
schools, in the workhouse schools, in the Army and
83. Then might not the Lord President who Navy schools, and is not in the least responsible
said, “I am the Minister of Education, and the for the education of Ireland ? _The vote for which
Vice President is merely my Under Secretary," he is responsible is a vote for public education in
take charge very much of the work, and not leave Great Britain. It is in two divisions now. for
it to the House of Commons ?-Certainly.
England and Wales, and for Scotland. We did
84. And that might arise from a different sense for some time inspect the workhouse schools, the
0.51.
A 3
industrial
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
4. March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C:B.
[Continued.
Yes; uplig
Service
of what is called:
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
industrial and reformatory schools, and the Navy British Museum, the National Gallery, and other
schools. The Army schools were the only ones places ? _ There have been rumours to that effect.
as to which the Secretary of State declined to 108. Would it not be desirable, supposing that
have anything to say to us. But we found there was one responsible Minister of Education,
difficulties in dealing with such schools as the that the votes should be under one office, and
industrial schools, or the Poor Law schools, which that thus collision and the purchase of duplicate
caused them to be sent back to their respective specimens should be avoided ?-Yes; I think
departments.
that nearly all of what is called Class IV. in the
96. Was not that on account of the wantof unity Civil Service Estimaets (I do not advocate it for
in administering educational matters ?- At that Ireland) might very properly be placed under
time, yes, because different systems were ap- the Minister for Education.
plied.
109. Supposing that there was a Minister of
97. Did the sums for those schools appear in Education ?-Supposing that there was one.
your votes ?-- The sums for the inspection of the 110. But as a great educationalist do you
workhouse schools did. We paid the officers ; really advocate that education in Ireland should
but the money that was distributed on the recom- be left alone and separated from the education
mendation of our inspectors was borne upon the of the rest of the country ?-On a mere question
vote for the then Poor Law Board.
of education, as to the test to be applied to the
98. With respect to the Irish education, which children before they are allowed under a
now represents a very large vote, do you know compulsory system to go to labour, that might
who is the responsible Minister of Education as be very well placed in the same hands in Ireland,
regards the House of Coinmons ?-I presume that as in England and Scotland. But there is a
if any question was asked it would be of the difficulty even now in the administration of both
Chief Secretary for Ireland,
Scotland and England where there is much less
99. Are you aware that excessively few ques- difference. I am afraid that if you crossed the
tions are ever asked about the education of Channel you would find the local questions as
Ireland ?- Very few educational questions. to organisation, and the principles upon which
100. If there was a responsible Minister of the schools are established and maintained so
Education, even as regards the elementary different, unless they were brought more nearly
schools (for we are only speaking of those just into harmony with those in England and Scot-
now), do you not think it an anomaly that a part land, say in the amount of Imperial money given
of the kingdom is growing up without any system for the support of those schools, that it would be
of compulsory education, and without any real very difficult to administer a system so far off as
active ministerial responsibility in the House of Ireland.
Commons for a large number of votes ?-I am 111. Is it much further off than Scotland ?-I
sorry that there is no system of compulsory think so as regards the principles of adminis-
cducation in Ireland, but I should be more sorry tration.
for the Minister of Education, the Vice Presi- 112. But supposing that there is a strong
dent, or whoever he was, if Ireland were added responsible minister for education in the country
to his present labours.
is it not natural that the three parts of the King-
101. Have you any idea of what the previous dom should all have like advantages of educa-
census showed was the proportion of Irishmen tion ?-Yes.
who could not read and write? -No, I do not 113. And that the minister should be respon-
know.
sible to the House of Commons for extending
102. Would you be surprised to hear that, the same advantages to the population of the
after large sums of money had been voted for three parts of the Kingdom ?-In the case of
Ireland for nearly 50 years, about 40 per cent. of the educational advantages, yes. But I think.
the population cannot now read and write ?-A it would be somewhat hazardous to put a large
large number cannot, no doubt.
Imperial expenditure for Ireland into the same
103. With regard to the Science and Art hands that were keeping down as much as they
Department, does your present system work could the Imperial expenditure for England and
well ?-I think so, on the whole.
Scotland. I think that it would give a great
104. Do you come sufficiently close into junc- claim to England and Scotland for an immense
tion; are the Science and Art officers able to extension of the Parliamentary vote if that
render you any assistance with regard to your vote was administered by the same hands that
elementary schools ?-Yes, in examinations; and, administered a very wide vote in Ireland, as is
on the other hand, our inspectors assist them in the case now.
their examinations.
114. But does not that very fact press upon
105. The President and Vice President have us the feeling that there is now no efficient
always taken an active interest, have they not, ministerial responsibility for Irish Education ?-
in the Department of Science and Art ?-Yes. Perhaps so.
106. There is no division into questions of 115. At present is it not a purely home rule
patronage and education there, is there?—I mode of administration in Ireland ?--It is ad-
presume that any question of patronage would be ministered by a body of Commnissioners sitting
settled by the Lord President, if he insisted in Dublin certainly.
upon it, but questions of patronage are raised at 116. Having no connection with the expendi-
the Board sometimes.
ture for education in the rest of the empire ?-
107. You are aware that votes given for the No connection, so far.
Deparıment of Science and Art have sometimes 117. You have a sort of connection, have you
come into collision with other votes given to the not, with the Endowed Schools under the new
schemes ?-
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
4 March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[Continued.
after
officient there are
no.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
schemes ?--All the schemes of the Endowed simply have the power of inspection and report-
Schools that the Charity Commissioners pass for ing to Parliament as to the results ?-Yes, but I
England, and the Endowment Commission for doubt whether they would exercise it through
Scotland, must be approved by the Education their own officers in the case of what are called
Department.
the first grade endowed schools. The better
118. Have you any official knowledge of the arrangement, I think, would be to put the schools
success of these schemes after you have ap- of the first grade in direct connection with the
proved of them ?-We have no official know- university boards that have been appointed by
ledge of them after we have approved of them in Oxford and Cambridge, and London, for the in-
the Education Department; and during the spection of schools of high grade.
short time that I have been sitting as a Charity 127. But still you would make it a conımunica-
Commissioner, and hearing questions as to the tion by the Education Department ?-Yes.
organisation of Endowed Schools, the blot
appears to me to be that even the Charity
Chairman,
Commissioners have no knowledge of what 128. You would treat the high grade endowed
happens in the management of a school after schools like public schools? I would.
they pass and approve the scheme.
119. Supposing that we asked in the House
Sir John Lubbock.
of Commons for a return from the Charity Com-
missioners of how many pupils are attending the
129. How would you define the duties and
different schools under the revised schemes, and
functions of the Committee of Council on Educa-
whether those schools are being conducted
tion ?-I am afraid that the first definition when
· efficiently, is there any means of making such a
they were originally appointed in the year 1839,
return now ?-As to the first part of the ques-
which defined their duties to be to“ superintend
tion about the number of pupils attending the
the application of any sums voted by Parliament
schools, yes; as to the efficiency of the schools,
for the purpose of public education,” would not
apply now.
120. There is no inspection of them at present?
130. Can you give us any definition of your
-No; that provision was, if you remember, con-
own idea of the functions and duties which they
tained in the second part of Mr. Forster's Bill
now perform ?- To advise the Lord President
of 1869, which was dropped.
and the Vice President, when called upon to do
121. Do you not think it desirable that Par-
so, on important measures.
liament should know by inspection or otherwise
131. You remember, of course, that Sir John
how the schemes which they have sanctioned are
Pakington, when he was Chairman of the Com-
progressing, and whether they are satisfactory ?
mittee of 1866, recommended that the Committee
-I think the absence of the power of inspection
of Council on Education, as being no longer
is a great want at present.
adapted for the purpose for which it was formed,
122. Would you put that power of inspection
should cease to exist ?-I remember that he did
in the hands of the Charity Commissioners, or
so.
would you put it under the Education Depart-
132. What is your opinion upon that point ?--
ment which has experience in these things ?-I
I should be sorry to see the Committee of Council,
should certainly put the direction of the inspec-
although it meets perhaps but seldom, abolished.
tion of those schools under the Education De-
133. You think that although it meets only
partment.
about once a year still it is occasionally useful ?-
It is a useful organisation to call into play.
Chairman.
134. Under what circumstances does the Lord
123. Leaving the finance of the schools to the
President now act independently of the Vice-
President ?-In questions of patronage, as I have
Charity Commissioners ?-Exactly so.
already stated.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
135. In questions of patronage, and of patron-
age only ?–Of patronage, and patronage only.
124. You have no charge over the finance after I shoulă, of course, carry out an instruction from
you have started a scheme, have you?—There is the Lord President without question. Even
an annual financial report; but assuming that the although the signature of the Vice President did
Endowed Schools Commission, which is merged
not appear on the paper; but I believe that is a
in the Charity Commissioners, is a temporary
matter as to which information could be given
thing and passes away, there will still be the power
you only by the Lord President and the Vice
of the Charity Commissioners, as such, to look
President.
after charity properties, whether in the shape of 136. You would carry out any instruction
schools, or in any other form.
which the Lord President might give, but as a
Chairman.
matter of fact he has only interfered indepen-
dently in questions of patronage ?-Yes.
125. And as 10 the finance, you think that the
137. About how often does he practically
powers should be exercised by the Charity Com attend at the office ?- The Lord President, I
missioners?-I think so; they have power under should think, is in the office during the Session
the Charitable Trusts Acts to deal with mal-
every day. I do not see him on educational
appropriation, or non-appropriation by trustees. matters every day, but I am pretty sure that he
is there, because there are other important
Sir Lyon Playfair.
matters to attend to which are matters of daily
126. Then the Education Department would pressure.
0.51.
A 4
138. But
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
4 March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[Continued.
atten very anxious Ye sat upon thet se
Sir John Lubbock—continued.
Chairman.
138. But does he attend, although you may 149. As to purchases ? ---- As to purchases ;
not see him, on educational matters very often, they were thought to be bidding against each
or does he generally attend with reference to the
other. But I think we are on such terms now
other functions which he has to perform ? I sup-
with the British Museum, that that could not
pose he comes down to the office to see what is
possibly occur.
doing, and he is there to be consulted either by
myself, or by the Vice President, if he wants to
Sir Lyon Playfair.
see him.
139. I did not quite gather from the answers 150. And the same with regard to the
which you gave to the Right Honourable National Gallery ?-Yes.
Member for the Universities of Edinburgh and
St. Andrew's with reference to Ireland, whether
Sir John Lubbock.
you think that the money which is voted for Ire 151. Then you do not state as of your own
land is now doing as much to promote the cause knowledge that it ever did occur; it was rather
of education as it might, or whether it would not
a general rumour, but you believe that at pre-
be better if it were placed under the Education sent no such confict does arice
Department ?-I have had so much to do with
England and Scotland that I am afraid I know
Mr. Raikes.
too little of the working or the results of the
Irish system to answer that question.
152. Do I correctly understand you to say
140. Coming to the question of endowed that the present system of administration of the
schools, can you inform the Committee, approxi Department, securing as it does the representa-
mately, what is the amount of the endowments of tion in both Houses by a minister of weight, on
the endowed schools ?-I cannot.
that account appears to you to counterbalance
141. You have already told us that you have
any other inconveniences which arise from the
other matters to which you have referred ?-I
no means of giving us any information as to the
think that the system has worked with admirable
efficiency with which the schemes are carried
results hitherto, only that if you were starting a
out?—No.
142. Nor as to the system of instruction which
new system you might not start it on the
same lines.
is given in those schools ?--No.
153. But I understand you to say that you
143. It is the case, is it not, that several Com-
think there has been very considerable advan-
missions which have sat upon the subject have tage derived from the fact of having a minister
been very anxious to see a greater amount of of authority to represent the Department in
attention given to the study of modern languages each House?_Considerable aduontom
and of science in endowed schools ?-Yes.
154. And you could not at this moment point
144. And that was one of the great objects of to any defects in the administration of the De-
many of the schemes, in fact, I think of the partment which are so glaring as to call for the
majority of the schemes ?—That is an object abolition of that system ; is that so?_Yes, that
in every scheme.
is so.
145. You are probably conversant with a 155. I think you said just now with regard to
Return which I obtained from the Charity Com- the non-inclusion of Ireland under the Depart-
missioners through Lord George Hamilton about ment, that you saw very great difficulties in
four years ago, as to the system of instruction pur- administering education in Ireland by the De-
sued in the endowed schools ?-1 am afraid I am partinent in Whitehall, in consequence of the
not. As I have already said, I have had very very different principles upon which grants are
little to do in the Education Department with made, and of the absence of compulsory educa-
the endowed schools work, and I have not been tion in that country ?-Yes.
long enough in my new post to get much insight 156. And you are not prepared to recommend
into it.
further that Ireland should be included within
146. Then as regards how far the system of the control of the Department in London ?-I
instruction adopted in those schools coincide should, individually, not have liked to see it
with that which has been recommended by Royal while I was in connection with the Departa
Commissions, you are not in a position to give us ment.
any information at present ?—No, nor do I know 157. The workhouse schools, the industrial
that it would be forthcoming, from the inspection schools, and the Army and Navy schools, which
of the schools, from any quarter.
you have told us are not at present administered
147. Do you not think it very desirable that Par- by the Department, were, I think you said, in
liament and the country should have some means some instances inspected by the Department
of judging how far the principles laid down in some years ago ?-The workhouse schools were
these recommendations, and these schernes, are
inspected by the Department for 17 years, from
being carried out practically in the management
1826 to 1863 ; and a special inspector of the
of endowed schools ? -Certainly.
Department inspected the Naval schools for some
148. You said just now, I think, that the time, but not the Army schools.
votes for the Science and Art Department come
158. Was it because those schools are worked
into collision with those of the British Museum ? upon a somewhat different principle from the
—Sir Lyon Playfair said so, I think. There elementary schools that you think it was just as
were some stories afloat about this some years
well that that inspection was discontinued ?
ago, but I do not think that there have been
There was a conflict of jurisdiction in those
latterly.
cases, which led to the discontinuance of our
inspection.
these married out
a certain i think,
times. Was it becauifferent principle as jus
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
4 March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[Continued.
Mr. Raikes—continued.
Mr. Raikes-continued.
inspection. The inspectors would examine, for country, a few perhaps in each district, so that
instance, a workhouse school, and say, “ This their work would not be largely increased.
master has a certain standard of attainments; I Our inspectors are, as a rule, men who have
recommend that a certificate should be given to taken very high honours at Oxford and Cam-
him which carries a certain salary.” That was bridge, and they are very much the same men
the inspector's duty; but when he followed it up that Oxford and Cambridge would send down
with the recommendation that the schoolroom if they were charged with the duty of inspecting
should be put into better order, or that the the schools. As I have already stated [ do not
children should have a little more liberty and anticipate that we should einploy our inspectors
be passed on those recommendations, it was civilly in inspecting the first grade endowed schools;
said to us, “ Mind your own business; you have I do not see why we should not inspect those
nothing to do with that; we are responsible for of the third grade; we certainly might do so,
that.” Therefore we did not like to go on because they rise very little above the level of
making recommendations which were not carried an ordinary elementary school, but for the second
out.
grade schools my idea, on thinking over the
159. In point of fact, difficulties arose between question, always was that they should be ex-
the Departments in consequence of a certain amined by the Oxford and Cambridge Syndi-
friction caused by the different ideas which pre- cates or Boards who yearly hold examinations
vailed in those Departments as to how these for what are called middle class schools.
schools should be conducted ?-Yes,
172. The present class of inspectors is almost
160. And that, of course, aggravated the diffi- entirely composed, is it not, of men who have
culties of the position of your inspectors ?- taken high University honours ?--Amost en-
Yes.
tirely.
161. You said just now that there are very 173. Are any of them men who have achieved
few educational questions asked in the House of distinction as elementary schoolmasters, or per-
Commons about Ireland; but you are probably sons in that class ?— There was one who died last
aware that a great many questions are raised year, and there is one at present, but he has also,
with regard to the administration of the Educa- I think, taken a degree at the London Univer-
tion Grants in Ireland ?- That is the reason sity. Many of the school inspectors have been
why I spoke of educational questions.
taken from that class.
162. And that, in point of fact, we have more 174. Has it ever been contemplated by the
debates in the House of Commons relating to the successive ininisters at the head of the Educa-
position of teachers, for instance, and other ques- tional Department to extend that element among
tions cognate to the matter regarding Ireland, the inspectors ?-It has.
than we have regarding England ?-Yes.
175. But no very practical steps apparently
163. You think that it would be undesirable have ever been taken to carry that out ?-An
that the English Minister of Education should appointment of a class of sub-inspectors has
be mixed up in such controversies?-I think been made these last two years, taken from the
elementary school class, the effect of which will
164. And you believe that that would rather be to reduce to an appreciable extent the number
interfere with the present working of the English of the high grade inspectors, who, in the
Department ?-Yes.
country districts especially, and even in the
165. The Votes for Science and Art in Ire- town districts, from the large number of children
land are administered, are they not, by the Trea- that now have to be individually examined, can
sury ?-No, by the Education Department. inake over a good deal of their work to men of
166. But is it not the fact that the Secretary that ciass, and who therefore may confine them-
of the Treasury is generally called upon to de- selves to the work which we used to call
fend those Votes in the House of Commons ?- inspection proper, as in country districts they
No, the Vote is taken as a 'part of the Vote for can go to schools, perhaps, every alternate year.
the Science and Art Department.
176. And you think that there is plenty of
167. I think you accepted a statement made material amongst the teacher and schoolmaster
in the course of your examination that 40 per class from which you could draw satisfactory
cent. of the Irish cannot read or write at the pre- inspectors ?-I do, if they work under the super-
sent time?-That statement was made.
vision of one of the inspectors of the higher
168. And I think you accepted that, although grade.
177. Then it would be possible, I suppose, in the
stated.
event of these additional inspectors being created
169. Do you know what is the present per for the purpose of investigating the endowed
centage of English people who cannot read or schools, to transfer that duty to some of your higher
write?-I have no means of ascertaining, nor grade inspectors that you now have ?-Quite
do I know that there is any such means; there so.
is nothing in the census to inform us.
Mr. Herbert.
170. With regard to the inspection of the en-
dowed schools, I suppose that if such a duty 178. You said that the English Committee of
were undertaken by the Department it would Council met about once a-year, and that the
render necessary the creation of a new class of Scotch Committee met about twice a-year,
inspectors ?-I do not see that.
and you said directly afterwards, in answer
171. You think that the work could be done to a question put, I think, by the Chancellor of
by the existing inspectors of elementary schools ? the Exchequer, that you would be very sorry to
--Yes, the schools are scattered all over the see that Committee done away with ?-Yes.
0.51.
179. It
han we have think that its of Education. I think
so.
©
MINUTES. OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
4. March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[ Continued.
Mr. Herbert-continued.
Mr. Herbert-continued.
179. It seems that they meet very seldom ; do --I have always felt that, independently of the
you find that the Department derives very much fact that we have already almost more than
benefit from those meetings ? As they have enough to do.
met recently mainly in connection with matters 191. But theoretically, do you think it would
of legislation, I think, considering the composi- be a good thing to have the whole of the educa-
tion of the Coinmittee of Council, that it would tion of the country in the hands of one Depart-
be a great advantage to retain the possibility of ment?-It sounds very well, but I think that
consulting them.
difficulties would arise in the working if it were
180. You think that they might meet more placed in the hands of one man.
often with advantage ? —No, because I should
hope that very big questions such as they would
Mr James Campbell.
have to advise upon would not come up too
often.
192. On the subjeot of Irish education, I sur-
181. Then we come to this : that you only pose you have looked at the question more from
consult the Committee, then, when you find that the point of view of one entrusted with the super-
you have got some big question to settle ?-That vision of English and Scotch education than as
is so.
one interested in the education of Ireland ?-
182. Are they consulted, for instance, as to any I am interested in the education of Ireland, but
alteration of the Code ? — They are consulted as I do not know inuch about it.
to any serious alterations of the Code.
193. Under the recent Act the endowed
183. I want to know what power the members schools of Scotland will in future "be inspected
of the Committee of Council would have; could and reported upon, will they not?-Certainly;
they originate anything themselves ?- Sugges- when that Act was being passed for Scotland,
tions come from all quarters, and they might we remarked the omission in the English Act,
propose to the Lord President or the Vice and supplied it by making it a condition of every
President (and I have no doubt that sometimes scheme that you and your colleagues frame, that
they do) changes that they would like to see you should provide for inspection upon such
made in the Code.
principles as the Scotch Education Department
184. Then you say that the informal meetings may settle.
take place much more often than the formal 194. The provisions in the Educational En-
meetings ?-Yes.
dowments Act for Scotland were made under the
185. Could you give us any idea how often supervision and at the suggestion of the Educa-
they meet?-I will take a large Act, the Act of tion Department, were they not?-Quite so.
1876; they met very frequently, perhaps eight 195. And under these provisions there will be
or ten times in the spring, just before that Act in future not only inspection of the endowed
was passed. Before the Scotch Acts have been schools, but an annual report upon their con-
passed they have met very frequently; not so fre- dition ?-Yes.
quently as in the case of the English Acts, 196. So that in the provisions for Scotland
because the Scotch Acts have not been so long, there is now a precedent that may be of use
but they met half a dozen tinies, perhaps, to con- with regard to the schools of England ?-- Yes.
sider the Endowed Schools Act of the Session 197. Would you explain what the patronage
before ļast.
is that is exercised by the Lord President?
186. And that informal committee consists of Hc appoints inspectors and examiners, and to
the Vice President, yourself, and members of the several important offices in connection with
executive of the Department?-It consists of the South Kensington Department. Clerks
the Lord President, if he is there, the Vice Pre- are appointed by competition through the Civil
sident, myself, and, for instance, in a question of Service Commissioners. In the Whitehall
Scotch legislation, the Lord Advocate, and some branches the patronage is that of inspectors and
member of the Government who is taking an examiners.
active part in the question. I remember that 198. Has there not been a complaint that in-
Lord Rosebery, when he was at the Home spectors have been appointed who themselves
Office, and the Lord Advocate, were frequently had no practical knowledge of teaching ?-Such
with us.
a complaint has been made, but in the selection
187. Is the Board of the Science and Art of inspectors of late years, somewhat more
Department composed of very much the same attention has been paid to that. I think, how-
members ?- The Lord President and the Vice ever, that if men who have the University rank
I'resident are the only ministers. The Committee that our inspectors generally hold, whose duty
of Council has never been summoned in con- it is not so much to interfere with methods or
nection with the Board of Education to my systems of instruction, as to report the results
knowledge, and I do not think that it ever has arrived at, tested by examination of the scholars,
188. With regard to the endowed schools the gain a little practice and experience by going
Department has no power, as at present consti- about the country with one of the senior in-
tuted, to conduct an investigation or inspection spectors for some months, and by going to a
of these endowed schools ?- No.
training college and watching the system pursued
189. It requires further powers to enable it to there, as it is intended that the inspectors should
do so ?- It does.
henceforth do, it is not necessary that they
190. With regard to Ireland, I take it from should have been for a long time previously
your answers that you have a sort of feeling that practically engaged in teaching in schools.
it would embarrass the English Department to 199. You mention that practical teachers have
have to deal with the Irish educational question ? been appointed as sub-inspectors ?-Yes.
200. And
He a
impokensit
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
11
4 March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[Continued.
Mr. James Campbell---continued.
Mr. Sclater-Booth-continued.
200. And you think that perhaps anyone management and supervision of those establish-
showing high qualifications as a sub-inspector ments.
may receive promotion to the rank of inspector ? 206. But that requires a rather close and de-
-Certainly. In Scotland, as you are doubtless tailed inspection of a skilled and technical sort,
aware, more of the inspectors are taken from the which necessitates as it were a separate system of
schoolmaster class; one if not two of those who inspectors in the Local Government Depart-
are now inspectors began life as inspector's ment?—Yes, for the ordinary constitution and
assistants, that is to say, were taken froin the management; but no child in a workhouse school,
schoolmaster class.
or in any other school, can get to work now
without passing our tests, and so far we are
Mr. Sclater-Booth.
quite willing to apply those tests.
just now that you were in 207. If they pass your tests, do they do so on
favour of the retention of the Committee of the certificate of the Local Government in-
Council on Education, because of its occasional spector?---Yes.
meetings, although they were only occasional ?-
Yes.
Viscount Lymington.
202. I should like to ask you whether you 208. I understand you to say that the Vice
attach any value to the existence of the Com-
com;
President in con
President, in consequence of the increased work
mittee as a sort of fiction under which it is useful
that falls upon him in the House of Commons,
to disguise the personality of the President and
by reason of his having the control of the votes,
Vice President, or whether you think that a
has lately assumed the character of the Minister
mischievous operation of the Committec ?-1 of Education; I also understand you to say that
think that used to be the feeling with regard to the Lord President has been by custom and by
the Committec of Council. The position of the tradition invariably in the Cabinet ?--Yes.
Committee as such is pretty well known now; 209. Practically, does not this double organi-
I think the public know that they do not meeti, sation of the Lord President and the Vice
except for the transaction of formal business.
President confine the office of the Lord Presi-
203. Does not that rather lead you to think
dent to the Cabinet, and, therefore, practically
that it would be better tliat that fiction should
prevent the actual Minister of Education from
be abolished, and that the Minister responsible
entering the Cabinet, or from exercising any
for the Department should be directly kuown
Cabinet influence ?-Mr. Forster, as Vice Pre-
and recognised as such, just as in the case of a
sident, was in the Cabinet, as well as Lord
Secretary of State ?- There is a still stronger Ripon
fiction in other Departments where they never
personally neet, whereas the members of our
Sir Lyon Pluyfair.
Committee do occasionally meet, and we have
the right, as I think you must remember, fre.
210. That is the only case ?- That is the one
quently to ask for advice and assistance from the case.
individual members who from their official
Viscount Lymington.
position are appointed to be members of the
Committee. The President of the Local Go. 211. It is rather inconvenient, is it not, to
vernment Board, the First Lord of the Ad have two Cabinet Ministers in the same office?
miralty, the Secretary of State for War, the It might be, but we did not find it so in the case
Home Secretary, and the Chancellor of the in question.
Exchequer are the official members to whom we 212. I want to ask you a question about Irish
can appeal.
Education ; are you not of opinion that it would
204. That is going back to what you have be very difficult, practically, to carry out in
advocated, namely, the retention of that power; Ireland a system of compulsory education as it is
but apart from that do you think it useful or carried out in England and Scotland; would not
mischievous that the two Ministers in charge the religious and the local feeling in Ireland
should have their personality disguised by this render any attempt of that kind impracticable?
fiction of the Committee?-I do not see any —I am afraid that I know very little of Ireland,
great mischief attaching to it
and have not been mixed up with any Irish
205. With regard to the workhouse schools, questions.
which you say were inspected for 17 years by 213. Do you know the character of the body
the officers of your Department, there is this of Commissioners who have the control of the
great distinction between the worklıouse schools Irish Education ?-No.
and the schools that you have to deal with; 214. I think you are of opinion that it would
that the workhouse schools are boarding schools, be desirable that the Endowed Schools, not of
and that the question of the mere education the first class but of the lower classes and grades,
which you have to deal with is merged in the should be subjected to the ordinary inspection of
greater question of their whole treatment and the ordinary school inspectors ?--Yes.
condition ?-Quite so. That same principle ap- 215. And I think I understood you to throw
plies to all the schools that we had to deal with, out a suggestion that schools of the first grade
to the reformatory and industrial schools, and to might be subject to the inspection of the Uni-
the Army and Nary schools. We were quite versity Board ? - Yes.
willing to conduct the purely intellectual ex- 216. I want to ask you whether, in the point
amination, as we have offered to do now for the of view of the Education Office, it being a great
industrial schools, but not to undertake the office of State, and it being so largely connected
0.51.
B 2
with
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
4 March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[Continued.
Viscount Lymington--- continued.
Viscount Emlyn-continued.
with the expenditure of public money, it is desir- tary of State, in the same way as the Army and
able that all the first grade schools, such as Eton, Navy ?---Yes; but all the Minutes, and every
or Harrow, cr Winchester, should be subject to application of an Article in the Code to a parti-
that system of inspection ? — They are inspected cular school, may take a religious or sectarian
now from Oxford and Cambridge, but I merely turn, and raise important questions.
suggested that that system should be applied not 224. I take it to be your opinion that it is
to the great public schools, but to endowed more necessary in the Education Department to
schools of the first grade, which have been re- have two strong Ministers, one in each House,
vised by the Charity Commissioners. In schools than it is to have two strong Ministers, one in
of this grade the scholars stay late, and go each House, for the Army or Navy ?- That is
straight to the University, so that the universi- my view as an officer of the Education Depart-
ties are naturally interested in their efficiency. ment.
225. With regard to endowed schools, I un-
Chairman.
derstand that all schemes coming from the En-
dowed Schools Cominissioners have to be sanc-
217. It would save us trouble if you would be tioned by the Education Department ?-Yes.
kind enough tu enumerate some of the first grade 226. To what extent docs the Education De-
schools ? - Manchester Grammar School, Brad-
partment go into the details of these schemes; do
ford Grammar School, and Leeds Grammar they go merely into the educational part of them,
School, and the schools at many large centres; or do they also go carefully into matters relating
they are generally known as grammar schools.
to the funds and the property '_ The Educa-
tion Department interfere very little with the
Viscount Lymington.
Endowed Schools Commissioners, or with the
218. But do you think it would be convenient Charity Commissioners, unless they are called
that a public school of the character of Eton or upon to do so by any opposition made to a
Harrow should be in any way subject to any scheme.
Parliamentary control at all? — They are not 227. In fact, the passing of the scheme through
subject to it now, and I do not see that there the Education Department is more for the pur-
is any reason for putting them under Parlia poso of having a check upon the Charity Com-
mentary control.
missioners, than a going into the scheme on the
part of the Education Department ?-Quite so.
Viscount Emlyn.
228. Is it not the case that that tends to a
219. I think I understood you to say that you
at you
cert
certain amount of delay in the passing of the
considered that if there was to be one real head
schemes ?—It causes some short delay, but I
of the Education Department it would be neces. think it is a great safety valve for the people on
sary, in your view, that he should be a Member the spot, that if they have any objection to a
of the House of Commons I think he would scheme they shall first discuss it with the
Charity Commissioners themselves.
venerally be in the House of Commons: but it
Then if
would be impossible to exclude a Peer from the
the the Charity Commissioners do not alter the
post, and the danger would be that if he was in
scheme, but adhere to their first proposal, it
the House of Lords, the representation of the
is sent on to the Committee of Council, in order
Department in the House of Commons would be
id be that another body may sit in judgment upon
weaker than it is now.
the proposal and consider the wishes of the
220. Do you think that the same argument
locality.
would not apply to the Admiralty, the War
229. And is the decision of the Education
Office, and other Departments of that kind ?--
Department absolute !-- There is an appeal to
I think, as I ventured to say, that where there
are so many burning political questions mixed
230. Therefore there are two separate appeals
up with education it is an advantage to have two
from the first authority that settles the question ?
Ministers of high position.
-Yes.
221. Do you think that there would be a greater
231. Do you think that is absolutely necessary?
chance of the interests of the Education Depart-
-It is a great advantage.
ment being insufficiently looked after than there
232. Are you aware whether some of the first
would be of the Admiralty or the War Office
grade grammar schools are now examined by the
business not being efficiently looked after in the
Oxford and Cambridge Board ?- I do not know
case of the head of the Department being in the whether they are, but I should think it is very
House of Lords ?-It is invidious to compare
likely.
men ; but we have always had highly dis-
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
tinguished men as Vice Presidents, and I do
not know that we should continue to have that
233. The Vice President being, as you have
advantage if they were in the position of Par- said, the de facto chief of the office, do you
liamentary Secretaries.
consider that the fact of his not being a Cabinet
222. But looking upon the Department as a Minister places him at any disadvantage in
spending Department, do you think there would carrying on his work in the House of Commons ?
he apy difficulty in that way as regards the I should say not on the whole.
spending ?- It is a large spending Department, 234. You think that, taking th
certainly.
Vice Presidents, on the whole they could not
223. All that part of the Department, I pre- have spoken with greater weight and efficacy if
sume, could be looked after by an Under Secre- they had been in the Cabinet?- They have
spoken
Ces
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
13
4 March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[Continued.
system of Irish eat all satisfactorice in London
Mr. Herbert Gladstone continued.
Chairman-continued.
spoken with great authority upon all questions in 245. Then when an inspector is mored, as I
the House of Commons.
suppose must often happen from one district to
235. In reference to Irish Education, of course, another district, and given much more important
one does not expect any accurate or detailed work, who settles that? That would be settled
information in your case of all that is going on in by the Lord President, as in the case of appoint-
Ireland; but do you think it would be possible, ments of the senior inspectors; but the movement
having regard to the general religious and of inspectors from one district to another has been
political state of Ireland, for the office in London very much left in the hands of myself as chief of
to administer at all satisfactorily the whole the staff.
system of Irish education ?-I feel that it would 246. To whom would you go to get approval;
be very difficult, if not impossible, to do so. would you go to the Vice President?-I would
236. Can you tell us how many appointments talk to the Vice President, and in the case of any
are made annually by the President ?—The large re-arrangement would have the scheme con-
school attendance has grown so rapidly of late firmned by the Lord President; but the shifting
years that a good many appointments were made of the inspectors has been very much done by
before 1880. But since that date, I think, there myself.
has been but one inspector appointed, and, 247. I did not mean so much with regard to
perhaps, two examiners, because Lord Spencer the appointment of sub-inspectors as of chief in-
and Mr. Mundella determined to introduce the spectors ?-I have talked either to one or the
system of enlarging the districts and employing other, but it has been really left virtually to iny
a class of sub-inspectors under the inspectors; arrangement.
and, therefore, I do not think that there will be
248. You did say, but I am not quite sure that
any more inspectors appointed, perhaps, for some
we all heard it, who the Committee of Council
years.
237. What are the other appointments ?- The
are besides the President and Vice President ?-
There are a certain number of Officers of State
other appointments are those of examiners, in-
who are ex officio members : the Chancellor of the
dependently of the South Kensington appoint-
Exchequer, the Home Secretary, the President
ments; there are a few appointments there.
of the Local Government Board, the Secretary
There will be casual vacancies from the death
of State for War, and the First Lord of the Ad-
or removal of members of the staff; but one
miralty. Then there are always one or two
cannot count upon many; perhaps there will be
members of the Cabinet (it has always been so
one or two vacancies a year for examiners.
in England, but it is not so in Scotland) who have
taken a personal interest in education ; for in-
Chairman.
stance, the name of Lord Granville, who was for
238. There are one or two small points which
so long our Lord President, naturally figures in
I should like to ask you about; as regards the the present committee.
patronage of the Lord President, you said that
it was limited to the appointment of the inspec-
249. The others are ex officio members ?-The
tors and the examiners; is there a list handed
others are ex officio, and those appointments were
down by one Lord President to another?-Yes.
made as part of the arrangement under the Order
239. So that the patronage is practically not
in Council of 1856, by which we were directed
to assume certain duties in connection with the
political ?-No, it is certainly not political.
240. And it is understood that when a gen-
poor law schools, the workhouse schools, the re-
tleman of University distinction gets upon the
formatories, and the Naval and Military schools.
Lord President's list, he is not likely to be worse
250. You would retain the committee with its
off because there is a change of Lord Presi-
present functions ?-I think so.
dents ? It is. We have a list of between 200 2 51. You alluded to the circumstance that
and 300 candidates for inspectorships.
once, and only once, both the Lord President
241. As to the other branches of patronage, and the Vice President were in the Cabinet; did
patronage includes promotion, and that is pro-
any friction arise from that?-Not that I saw.
bably the most valuable part of it; by whom is 252. Therefore, in the organization of the De-
promotion settled ?-By the Lord President and partment, so far as you are aware, it is not an
the Vice President together now.
arrangement which leads to any difficulty at all ?
242. So that you do not promote an inspector —Not at all.
unless you get the initials of both the Lord Pre.. 253. You were asked about the possibility of
sident and the Vice President to the paper ?- extending the functions of the Privy Council to
Latterly it has been understood that the Vice Ireland; is it not the case that the Irish govern-
President would be consulted by the Lord Pre- ing body, the Commissioners of National Educa-
sident as to patronage.
tion, are men of different religious opinions ?-I
243. Since when has that been the case ?- believe so.
I should obey an order of the Lord President to 254. And in a country where the great majority
appoint an inspector to be the senior inspector of the people are Roman Catholics it of course is
just as I should obey an order of the Lord Pre- only reasonable that some Roman Catholics
sident to appoint a gentleman to be inspector. should be members of that body? -Quite so.
244. Then it is practically still the Lord Pre- 255. In this country there never has been, has
sident with whom the appointment rests ?-It is there, either a Lord President or a Vice Presi-
still the Lord President. It was only last year dent who, at the time, has been a Roman Catho-
that Mr. Gladstone said in the House of Com- lic?-No.
mons that the Vice President was to be hereafter 256. And may I say, that if that practice were
consulted.
to continue (I will not call it a rule), it would be
0.51.
B 3
fatal
14
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN* BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
4 March 1884.)
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[ Continued.
ulicablon,
Chairman-continued.
Chairman- continued.
fatal to the Privy Council having any authority 270. The tendency has been of late years, has
over Irish education ? --That had not occurred to it not, for England to learn a good deal from
me; but I see the force of the objection.
Scotland, and for Scotland to learn a good deal
257. If a Minister of Education were appointed from England ?-Something from England.
dealing with Great Britain, the great majority 271. Is it not the object of the Department to
of, which is Protestant, and with Ireland, the assimilate, as far as the conditions of the two
great majority of which is Roman Catholic, countries permit? - Quite so,
would not immense difficulties occur whether he 272. And you would be sorry to sce anything
were a Protestant or a Roman Catholic ?-I that would have the opposite effect?-Quite so.
should think that it would add to the embarass- I should be very glad to return to what we used
ment of the Prime Minister in selecting his to have, a code common to the two countries, pro-
Cabinet.
vided it goes high enough for Scotland.
258. I should like to ask you some questions 273. You put it very strongly, I think, that
with regard to the Scotch question. Nominally, one other reason besides the religious reason why
the superintendence of Scotch education is in Ireland should not be brought under the Privy
different hands from the superintendence of Council was the different proportion of support
English education, that is to say, you have a which it gets; you mean by that that the cost of
separate committee ?-Yes.
a school in Ireland, whether an elementary school,
259. And that committee, although they are or a training school, or a higher school, or what-
not consulted formally, are frequently consulted ever it may be, is far more highly borne by the
informally, as to Scotch education ?-Yes; and State there than it is here ?-Quite so.
from the fact that, with the exception of the 274. In fact, almost the whole of the charge
Duke of Richmond, we have never had a Lord falls upon the State in Ireland, whereas a very
or Vice President connected with Scotland; the large proportion of the charge falls locally in
Scotch Committee is an essential part of our England ? Yes.
organisation,
275. And you think the effect would be to
260. But the Lord President and Vice Presi- raise heavier demands for England and Scotland
dent exercise precisely the same authority, do if the supervision was the same ?- That 'is my
they not, in respect to the English and Scotch idea; and as you know there is a cry in England
committees ?—Precisely.
at the present moment to raise the proportion of
261. The Secretary is the same for both the State money expended.
English and Scotch committees ?-Ycs.
276 Anri that cry would be very difficult to
262. And Mr. Cumin, who succeeded you, meet if the whole of ihe education was under one
stands in the same relation towards the English departinent, and Justice to England " was set
and Scotch committees ?-Yes.
up ?-Yes.
263. And some of the senior officers deal with 277. You said that you thought it would be
both, do they not?-They are really interchange- well if all the Estimates in Class IV, should come
able, but we have set apart an Assistant Secre- under the general responsibility of the Committee
tary and so many examiners, most of whom are of Council: vou included the British Museum
Scotchmen, and we confine them exclusively to
and the National Gallery ? -Yes.
Scotch work.
264. Until you left, the English education was
278. I forget whether the National Portrait
Gallery is under South Kensington ?-No, it is
mainly looked after by Scotchmen, was it not?
under a body of trustees.
-Both Mr. Cumin and myself are Scotchmen.
279. You would include the Scotch universities
265. So that, practically, at this moment the and the London University ?--Yes, and the
English and Scotch education may be said to be Welsh colleges.
in the same hands ? -Yes.
280. So that the Ministry of Education (you
266. It is really one Department with a do not want exactly a Minister) should be very
nominal distinction ?--Exactly so.
nearly what the Minister of Education in France
267. From the experience that you have had is, excluding Ireland ?-Quite so.
in your late Department, would you wish that 281. And excluding the public schools, the
separation to be actual instead of merely nominal? first grade of the endowed schools, and the
- The systems of the two countries, and the English universities, which do not come upon the
ideas which come up connected with education Votes at all ? ---Yes.
in the two countries, are at present so different, 282. Excluding those, you would make a real
that I do not think that we could get on without Ministry of Education ?-Yes.
keeping some Scotchmen exclusively devoted to 283. Then I think I may sum up your evidence
Scotch work.
by saying, that you do not wish to alter the
268. But you do not wish to see two separate supreme organization at all; that is to say, of
departments, one for English education and the having a Lord President and Vice President, and
other for Scotch education ?--No, not two distinct having a committee, and treating England and
departments.
Scotland as they are treated now; you would
269. Would you be sorry to see, for instance, like to include the workhouse schools under the
the Vice President limited to English work, and educational supervision of the Privy Council ?
somebody else introduced for Scotch work, say a I should be willing.
Scotch Vice President ?-I think it would be 284. Is there not perpetual difficulty if one
better not to do so. My opinion is that it is Department spends the money and the other
better for the two countries to be both under one Department looks after the institution ?- We
head.
might examine the children and report to the
Local
of Council,tional Gallere: the Natio
do not want the Minister Quite obie scholar the
cluding Trecluding the quale hools, cu
to
Scotchody else isent limited
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
15
4 March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[Continued:
.
friction your charge, buing to take educadi Navy
really was to copy the ruling and it wa
Chairman-continued.
Chairman.
Local Government Board, as we propose to do 297. Would you take the new higher schools
in the case of the industrial schools.
in Ireland ?-No.
285. But what weight do you attach to this
Sir John Lubbock.
difficulty. You recommend that a master should
get so much more a year; they have got an in-
298. When you say you would place the
efficient master; the rate of pay is not enough to
British Museum under the Education Depart-
enable them to get an efficient one; the Depart-
ment, may I ask whether you would propose to
ment says, “ You have not spent the money, the
do away with the present body of the trustees ?
money comes upon our Estimates ;' is not that
-Certainly not.
an endless cause of difficulty ?-Yes; that led to
299. What relation would they hold to the
the discontinuance of our inspection of those
Education Department ?- The Minister of Edu.
schools. I said I should be willing to go that
cation would be ex officio a member of the body
length, as we are willing to do in the case of in-
of trustees of the British Museum, and he would
dustrial schools; I did not say that I should like
w lile have the Parliamentary responsibility for the
to do it.
vote. I do not know who would be hanged at
286. In the same way, the reforınatory and present if anything went wrong at the British
industrial schools, and the Army and Navy
by and Navy Museum.
N
schools, you would be willing to take educationally
300. The Minister of Education is at present
under your charge. but you admit that the a trustec of the British Museum, 1S he not?-
friction would be considerable ?-Quite so, as was
Yes, but he is not responsible for the vote.
the case when we gave them up. May I say
301. Would that interfere with the present
that neither in the workhouse schools nor in
relations between the trustees and the Board of
the Navy schools was there so much friction
Works with reference to the structural arrange-
Teally as unnecessary trouble. All that we had
ment of the buildings ?-It would not, because
to do was to copy out the inspectors' reports and
we have the same relations at South Kensington
W
send them on to the ruling Department. We with the Board of Works.
heard nothing more of them, and it was thought
302. Would you interfere in any other way
that the inspectors, Dr. Woolley, for the Navy,
or with the present functions of the trustees of
W
and the four inspectors that the Local Govern-
the British Museum ?-Not that I know of.
ment Board took over, might as well report
303. Then in fact the practical difference
directly to the controlling authority.
would be that the British Museum vote would
be moved by the Minister of Education in the
287. You said that you would include the
House of Commons instead of by one of the
British Museum and the National Gallery under
trustees ? --- That would be the only difference
the general supervision of the Committee of
that I can see.
Council ?-Yes.
288. Would you include the National Gallery
in Scotlans] ?-I would include the National
Chairman.
Gallery in England and the National Gallery in 304. Would it not go a little further; would
Scotland.
not all the questions between the Government
289. Would you include the Royal Academy and the British Museum trustees be carried on
in Ireland ?-Yes.
by the Lord President and the Council, rather
290. And the Dublin Society ?-Yes, as now. than as now, by the Treasury ?-Yes, but that is
291. Would you include all the institutions of
covered by the responsibility for the vote, the
art, of educational or of mixed art, and educa-
annual application for purchase money, and other
tional characters, which are to be found in the
items.
three kingdoms ?-We account for many more of
those institutions at present in Ireland than we
Sir John Lubbock.
do in England and Scotland.
305. Then the Education Office would have to
292. But you would wish to account for them correspond with the Treasury as regards the
all ?-Yes.
finance ? - Yes
293. And you would desire that all their
306. And, therefore, the trustees of the British
reports should come through the President and
Museum would correspond with the Education
the Vice President of the Council?-Yes.
Department, and then the Education Depart-
294. That is to say, as I said before, that in
ment would correspond with the Treasury,
England and Scotland, except with respect to the
instead of, as now, the trustees corresponding
Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and Durham,
direct with the Treasury ? -- Yes, the present
the public schools of Eton, Harrow, West-
secretary of the British Museum would become a
minster, and so on, and the first grade endowed
secretary as it were to the Department, and under
schools, the department should have the functions
the directions of the Lord President, after he
of a Ministry of Public Instruction ?-Yes.
had consulted the trustees, I presume he would
295. Would you take secondary education in go on very much as he does now.
Ireland too ?„No, I think that the primary and
secondary systems must work into each other's
Viscount Lymington.
hands, under the same control.
307. Then I understand that the Vice Presi-
dent or the Lord President would have a sort of
Sir Lyon Playfuir.
power of veto over the trustees ?-I should think
296. You account for the science schools in that, if he was wise, he would not interfere very
Ireland, do you not ?-Yes.
much with the action of the trustees.
0.51.
B4
308. Do
16
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN -BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
2
4 March 1884.]
Sir F. NAD
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[Continued.
much as they areesponsible, to the set-officio trusteetee and to act astion
world. To whom wouldcation Departmennister of
Verg, 3. At present for purchaseseum,
Sir John Lubbock.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
308. Do I rightly understand that you would 317. Without interfering with the manage-
make the principal librarian of the British ment or the autonomy of the institution ?-Quite
Museum and the corresponding official at the SO.
Natural History Museum at South Kensing-
ton, and make them officials of the Education
Sir John Lubbock.
Department, and not of the trustees? --They 318. At present the Lord President is a
would be very much as they are.
trustee of the British Museum; would it carry
309. To whom would he be responsible, to the out your suggestion, if being at present an
trustees or to the Education Department ?-He ex-officio trustee, he was practically to join the
would be directly responsible to the Minister of standing committee and to act as their chair-
Education, I presume. There are, I believe, man ?-Yes, the Minister of Education whom it
certain trustees, who are more especially the is proposed to substitute for the Lord President.
working and active trustees, with whom he would 319. But you would not propose to interfere
first communicate.
otherwise with the functions of the trustees?
310. Then if he was responsible to the Educa- No.
tion Department, he would be an official of the 320. But still it does not follow of course that
Education Department, and not of the trustees ? if the Minister of Education became the chair-
-He would.
man of the standing committee of the trustees of
311. Would it not be necessary for the trustees the British Museum, that should alter the system
to have some executive official of their own if under which they now correspond direct with the
they were responsible for the British Museum ? Treasury ?- No.
- They would advise the Lord President.
312. Then you mean that they would not be
Chairman.
an executive body, but in your judgment merely
321. You know I daresay what is very noto-
an advising hody ?--More so of course than now, rious, that last year there was a great deal of
but I do not suppose that their action would be communication on the subject of the purchase of
very much altered.
the Ashburnham Collection; under your plan
313. At present, as you know, Parliament would the trustees have communicated with the
votes certain sums for purchases and other func Minister of Instruction, and would he, as having
tions connected with the Museum, and that charge of all the other art departments, have
money is expended by the trustees ?--Yes. been considered to be the proper minister to deal
314. I do not understand you to propose to with the trustees, and having done so, would he
interfere with that arrangement?-No.
have brought the question of expense before the
315. Then if the trustees had the responsibility Treasury ?-Yes.
of the expenditure of the sums voted by Parlia- 322. So that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
ment which is all that they have now, what would would not be looked upon as the authority on a
you practically gain by interposing the Educa question of art?- He would not.
tion Department between them and the Trea- 323. That is the meaning of your suggestion ?-
sury ? _The Minister of Instruction, whoever he That is the meaning of my suggestion. In the
might be, would be as it were the chief trustee. case of the London University, for instance,
I have not thought out all these questions, but there are certain Votes to be expended for ex-
there has been for a long time an idea abroad aminers and scholarships. The Minister of Edu-
that it would he well to concentrate all the re- cation would not interfere with the selection
sponsibility of these several institutions under made by the senate of the examiners, or with
one ministerial head, because all these vutes in the standards of examination, but he would be
Class IV. are taken on the responsibility of no responsible for the Vote in Parliament.
Minister, I think, with the exception of the Welsh
Sir John Lubbock.
Colleges, which the Education Department has
dealt with, though the Vote for them is ac-
324. I should like to keep the question of the
counted for by the Treasury. For all the rest on
University of London separate, and to deal first
the Estimates, the responsibility is attached to the
of all with the question of the British Museum.
trustees of the British Museum, to the senate of Take this case with reference to the attings for
the London University, and to the Queen's Re- the Natural History Museum ; we had to put
membrancer in the case of the Scotch Universi- up certain cases to receive the stuffed animals,
ties. I do not suppose that if they were all put
and so on; at present the trustees of the British
under the Minister of Education the functions of
Museum correspond with reference to all these
those different bodies would be much altered.
arrangements direct with the Treasury ; would
you propose that those questions should be re-
Sir Lyon Playfair.
ferred first of all to the Education Department,
and then through them to the Treasury ?--Not
316. Would it not be very much the same as to the Education Department, but to the Minister
your connection with the Scotch Universities, for Education, who, as chief trustee, would see
that whilst you would not interfere with the all the work, and might possibly have a powerful
autonomy and management of the institution, the influence in dealing with the Treasury.
Minister of Education would be the person of 325. Supposing the Minister of Education to
whom Parliament could ask questions and find be one of the working Trustees of the Museum
out what things were going on, and who would (he is now an ex-officio Trustee, and therefore of
be the means of giving information ?-Yes, as course he might be a working Trustee if he
being responsible for the application of the chose), then you do not, as I understand you,
money.
propose that arrangements with reference to the
wall-
positorling Trusking derst
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
17
4 March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[Continued.
Presidät that to the be in the sin bu
do.
Sir John Lubbock-continued.
Sir John Lubbock.-continued.
wall-cases and other fittings of the Museum and their qualifications, and the persons by whom
should go through his Department, but that the they are recommended.
principal Librarian and a corresponding official 333. Therefore, although the candidate remains
at the Natural History Museum should corre- upon the list still surely the change of the Lord
spond directly with the Treasury as now, the President would very much alter his chances of
only difference being that the President of the being selected ?-Not always. .
Council or the Minister of Education would be 334. But it might ?-It might, certainly; but
the Chairman of the Standing Committee, I have frequently known inspectors appointed
instead of whoever may now be the Chairman by a Lord' President from his predecessor's
of the Standing Committee ?- Quite so.
lists.
326. So that practically the only difference 335. With reference to the actual staff of the
would be, as I understand you, that the Trus- Education Office itself, the appointments there
tees of the British Museum or Parliament would rest with the Lord President, I think?--The
appoint the Minister of Education Chairman of clerkships are filled up entirely by competition,
the body of Trustees, that the working of the and neither the Lord President nor the Vice Pre-
Museum would remain the same?~Very much sident has any voice in the matter. If we want
the same as it is now.
a clerk, we send to the Civil Service Commis-
327. Passing on to the question of the Univer- sioners for one.
sity of London, at present the Senate consider 336. Those are the first appointments; but
carefully the number and qualifications of the the promotions, I presume, are made in the office ?
examiners required for the different examina. -Yes, from one class to the other. I think
tions, and they correspond then direct with the you will find that that is done in most offices.
Treasury ; would you propose to relieve them The Lord President and Vice President seldom
of the function of considering what examiners see the clerks, and, as a rule, they have con-
were required, and would you place that re fidence in the selection that is proposed by the
sponsibility on the Education Department?-I permanent officials.
should leave it in the hands of the Senate as it is 337. Practically that rests with you ?-Prac-
now.
tically that rests with ine and my colleagues,
328. Then if you leave it very much in their
Ir who perhaps see more even of the men than I
hands as it is now, would it not be merely the
additional labour of the correspondence going 338. I think you said that the fact of the Vice
first of all to the Education Department, and
ation Department, and President not being in the Cabinet, did not, in
then from the Education Department to the
your opinion, interfere with the House of Com-
Treasury- f you wanted any increase, for in- mons work; but when it is a question of passing
stance, in the number of examiners, I think the
Bills through the House of Commons, do you not
Treasury would ask, “Has the Minister of
find that his not being in the Cabinet interferes
Education sanctioned this proposal ?" If you
with his chances of getting a Bill put down for
wanted 20 more examiners the duty of the re-
an early period in the evening, so that it may
presentatives of the London University would
have a chance of being taken ?-That I cannot
be to satisfy the Lord President, as you do now,
say. I fancy that Mr. Forster ran his Bill as
I assume, have to satisfy the Treasury.
easily out of the Cabinet as he would have
done in the Cabinet.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
329. It would be very convenient to ask a
Minister of Education responsible for all the 339. But do you think that Mr. Forster would
universities why the costs of the election of the have carried his inspection for the endowed
University of London are paid for out of the schools if he had not had Cabinet influence at
public funds, and why the costs of the Scotch the time?-I cannot say. I was in the Colonial
University elections are not paid for out of the Office the year that that Bill was passed.
public funds; you would have a point of in-
quiry upon various anomalies which exist?-
Sir John Lubbock.
Quite so.
340. Is it not your opinion that a Cabinet
Sir John Lubbock.
Minister has greater influence in getting his own
Bills put into a favourable position than Ministers
330. The University of London have no funds,
University of London have no funds, who are not in the Cabinet?-An outsider some-
and the Scotch University have funds and also a times thinks so.
sum voted by Parliament, with which they can 341. I think I understood you to say that
do what they like. Coming to the question of
practically the whole of the official work is
patronage once more, I think I understood you
transacted by the Vice President at present?
to say that when a gentleman once gets upon the
All important letters and all questions that arise
list of candidates for an inspectorship he remains
upon the reports of the inspectors, and all the
there independently of any change of the Lord different points that come up, go to the Vice
President?--Yes.
President direct.
331. And there are now from 200 to 300 such 342. When deputations come up to the Educa-
candidates upon the list?-Yes.
tion Department, by whom are they received ?
332. How are the selections practically made They sometimes ask to be seen by the Vice
out of that body of candidates ?- The list is President, and sometimes by the Lord President,
sent to the Lord President, and he makes his and they are received accordingly. If the Lord
selection. He sees the names of the candidates President cannot attend, the Vice President
0.51.
receives
on thortant letter ice Preside official vor that
sent to the body of candidat practically
18
MINUTES, OF EVIDENCE TÅKEN BEFORE SELECT 'COMMITTEE
4 March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[Continued.
ave open they have the res do se
Sir John Lubbock-continued.
Mr. Pell-continued.
receives them; sometimes they both receive fees as are allowed by the Education Depart-
them.
inent.
343. Is there never any inconvenience in the 352. But I wanted rather to know how you
Lord President receiving them when the business were moved; who inoves you actually in the con-
on which they come has been practically con crete ?-The School Board writes to us, “We
ducted by the Vice President ?-Perhaps they have opened a new school and we want a
do not get quite such practical answers to their grant.” They have to fill up the answers to
applications; but there would be nothing else to certain questions with regard to the school, and
cause inconvenience.
amongst others, “ What fees do you propose to
344. I think I understood you to say that your charge ?"
attention had not been particularly called to the 353. Then the Board, I suppose, make a state-
return which was published about four years ment of the fees which they propose to charge ;
ago, showing the number of hours devoted to the do the Department subject that to any revision
different subjects of study in endowed schools; or criticise it in any way?- They do so to
but assuming that that return showed that out of this extent: as we have a return from all the
about 40 hours a week not above three hours neighbouring schools of the district we see that
hours were given to modern languages, and the there is nothing in the fees either very much
same amount of time to science, would you con- below, or very much higher than, the fees in the
sider that the schemes as laid down for those other schools.
schools has been fairly carried out ?- It would 354. Do you make any local inquiry as to the
strike one at first, I think, that that was a small means of the parents in the district ?- Every
amount of time to be given to those subjects application is sent down to the inspector of the
respectively.
district with the inquiry, “ What do you think
345. You remarked once or twice, in the of the proposed fees in this district ?”
course of your evidence, that Oxford and Cam 355. Does he hold a local inquiry ?—I do not
bridge have established a board for the purpose know that he holds a local inquiry, but he knows
of examining schools; is it not rather the case the circumstances of each part of his district as
that they examine certain boys sent up by the a rule.
schools, than the schools themselves ? - There are 356. How would he know the circumstances
two systems. They send down examiners to ex- of the parents ? —We will say that a school was
amine, and to make a report upon the school; they built in a particular part of a town; he would
also hold an examination at certain centres, to know the scale of fees charged in all the sur-
which the picked boys come. They inspect many rounding schools, which are all under his inspec-
schools nowadays. Delegates are sent down from tion, and he would be able to judge by the
Oxford or Cambridge, and I believe sometimes character of the district whether the proposed
from the two united, because the Oxford and fees were suitable.
Cambridge Boards work together, and they will 357. But you have hardly answered my ques-
conjointly send down examiners to examine a tion. How would the fact that in an adjoining
school thoroughly and report upon it.
school certain lees were charged be a guide to
346. No doubt the Oxford and Cambridge him as to the condition of the parents, and their
School Examination Board is a joint board, and ability to pay ?-The character of a locality may
act jointly, but I was under the impression that be judged, I think, partly by the fees that the
they did not examine and report upon the other schools are getting from the people.
schools, but only examined certain boys in the 358. Do you know whether the inspector looks
schools ?—They do both, I believe. .
at the rate-book to see the assessments of the
347. Are you aware that a very small number houses that the parents are living in ?-I do not
of schools have had any boys examined in science know that he does.
or modern languages by that board ?-I believe
at hoard 2-I believe 359. Does the Education Department confer
that thosc subjects are not taken up so much as
at all with the Local Government Board upon
the other subjects.
the character and the position of the parents in
348. Are you aware that only about 400 boys the district which is to be supplied with a new
in the whole of England were examined in those
Board School, we will say in the metropolis, of
subjects last year by that board ?-I do not know
which for the moment I am thinking more than
the particulars of those examinations. I con. of any other part of the kingdom ?- We do not
ducted some of the earlier ones, but I have lost confer with the Local Government Board.
sight of the later ones.
360. Then am I to understand that you are
349. You would rather that we obtained our satisfied by a statement from your inspector, and
information upon that point from some one else?
that he again is satisfied, and forms his opinion
-If you please.
by an inquiry as to the standard of fees paid in
the neighbouring schools ?---And by looking
Mr. Pell.
about him, and seeing the general character of
350. Is your Department responsible for the the neighbourhood.
adjustment of the fees to be paid in the Board 361. What do you mean by looking about
Schools, or is it the Local Government Board him ?-If it were a school, for example, near the
who is responsible ? -The Education Depart. Crystal Palace, he would probably, if low fees
ment.
were proposed, say, “ Look at the loss of houses
351. How does that subject come before the in this district, look at the general run of the
Education Department, we will say, in the population, look at the neighbouring fecs: a
formation of a new Board School ?-By the Act twopenny fee cannot be passed.” On the other
of 1870 a School Board can only charge such hand, if he went into a low part of the metro-
polis,
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
19
4 March 1884.]
Sir F. SANDFORD, K.C.B.
[Continued.
Mr. Pell-continued.
polis, he might at once pass a twopenny fee, or
even a penny fee.
362. In the west-end of London, in Belgravia,
the fees would naturally be higher than they
would be at Bethnal Green ?--Yes.
363. Do your inspectors conduct examina-
tions in endowed schools at all ?—They do in
the case of any endowed school that is of a
class that comes under inspection, and gets
grants from Whitehall.
364. Are your inspectors going more freely
to those schools ? Yes, because from time to
time more endowed schools are being revised and
coming under inspection.
Mr. James Campbell—continued.
view of the Minister of Education; do you
mean simply as to Votes for them, and as to
explaining the Votes ?-Yes, the application of
the Votes.
366. Applying for the Votes and reporting
upon the application of them ?.--Yes, is the
Scotch universities now have their Votes ac-
counted for by the Queen's Remembrancer.
367. You do not propose any interference
with the arrangements of the universities ? - No
interference at all with the management,
Chairman.
368. There is no question that you would
like to originate yourself at this moment ? --No.
1960 Wh
369. We have covered the ground so far as
you know ?-I think so.
Mr. James Campbell.
365. You mentioned the Scottish universities
as, in your opinion, coming properly under the
0.51.
20
'MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
Tuesday, 11th March 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Herbert.
Sir John Lubbock.
Viscount Lymington.
Mr. Pell.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Salt.
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, IN THE CHAIR.
The Right Honourable WILLIAM EDWARD FORSTER (a Member of the House), called in; and
Examined.
Chairman.
Chairman-continued.
370. YOU were Vice President of the Com- the Vice President, and that the patronage was
mittee of Council for Education, I think, from exclusively in the hands of the Lord President
the year 1868 to the beginning of 1874?_Yes. when I was in the Department.
371. During part of that time you were not in 376. I suppose that such weighty matters as
the Cabinet ?No; I came into the Cabinet in the discussion and settlement of the Code were
1870, during the passing of the Education Bill. discussed between you ?-Yes.
372. Those five years of public service have 377. And that the passing of the Code every
given you complete information as to the organisa- year was a matter in which the Committee also
tion and system of the Committee of the Privy took part, did they not?-I do not remember
Council ?-Of the management of the Education that they did.
Department. I purposely put the answer in 378. That was Sir Francis Sandford's im-
that way, “ the management of the Education pression, that the Committee meet about once a
Department,” because the Committee of the year, and chiefly to settle the Code?- If they did
Privy Council is more a phrase than a reality. it was so formal a matter that it las escaped my
373. I will bring you to that a little later on memory.
in your evidence. We have had from Sir 379. Then can you tell us how frequently, so
Francis Sandford a good deal of useful evidence far as you can recollect, the Committec were
which I will ask you to confirm on one or two formally summoned ?-I have a sort of dim recol-
points. He has told us that the division of lection that there were one or two formal meet-
business between the President and the Vice ings, but they have not fastened themselves upon
President was practically this, that he took to my memory at all. I can, without hesitation, say
the Vice President all usual questions of edu- that the Department was carried on very much
cational administration, and that he took to the with the impression that we had but little refer-
President all questions of patronage; would you cnce to the Committee.
confirm that as the general principle of the 380. Sir Francis Sandford has made this dis-
division of the business?-Yes.
tinction; he says that when the President was
374. He also said that, although he had present formally at a committee the committee
generally no official knowledge of what passed was formally summoned, but that when the
between the President and the Vice President, he members of the Committee were called in for
did not think that in one out of a hundred cases consultation by the Vice President there was no
the President dealt with any matter which he formal summoning ?-I think Sir Francis Sand-
took to the Vice President ? I think that is ford must, in that statement, be alluding more to
true.
what happened after I left than to the state of
375. And on the other hand he said that so far things at the time I was in the Department.
as patronage is concerned, though the President 381. Would you say that during your time,
might consult the Vice President, there was no except as to matters of patronage, the Vice
trace of it on the papers ?- That is so. Perhaps President practically discharged the functions
I had better say that for almost the whole of the quoad primary schools (I am only asking you on
time that I was Vice President, Lord Ripon was that point now) of a Minister of Education ?-It
President; we had very strong personal friend was understood by myself, and doubtless by the
ship for one another, and I believe the greatest Lord President, that the Lord President was the
possible mutual confidence in one another, and President of the Council, and that I was the
therefore I naturally consulted him on any im- Vice President; but, as I say, the departmental
portant matter, and he would, if I had wished it, business was conducted by me. If you like I
have consulted me upon patronage, but it is could give you an illustration. On matters of
undoubtedly true that the regular official depart importance, such as the preparation of the two
mental business is expected to be conducted by BiÎls, the Endowed Schools Bill and the Primary
Bill,
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
21
11 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. W. E. FORSTER, M.P.
[Continued.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
Bill, of course there was a consultation between but the Scotch Bill was brought in by the Lord
Lord Ripon and myself; so there would be Advocate.
about the Code; so there would be about any 387. And before that time, under the old
very important question of policy that was likely system, the Privy Council did not administer
to come up. The illustration I would give is Scotch education ?-We had a Code, and we
this: before the passing of the Education Act gave grants for it, but the Bill was brought in
there were building grants to denominational by the Lord Advocate ; I believe all the Bills
schools, and the question, which was a very were brought in by the Lord Advocate.
difficult one to deal with, was, in what cases such 388. And under the new system you had
grants should be refused. I remember, I think practically the same relation to Scotch educa-
I made the rule myself, that in all cases of tion as you had to English education ?-Yes;
parishes (I need not give the reason; I am there was, as probably the Committee is aware,
merely giving this as an illustration) in which a Scotch Education Board for a time after the
there was only one school, I should carefully passing of the Act.
have all the particulars set before me, amounting 389. Before the establishment of the Scotch
no doubt to a very large number in the course of Committee of Council, you mean ?-Yes, before
the year. Now that is a matter as to which I the establishment of the Scotch Committee of
should probably have told the Lord President I Council ; but there was a Scotch Education
was taking this course, but I should never have Board which went on, I think, for two or three
passing before the establish meat ? –Yes, before
the Pere Vote for
Then, Puppies I recolleeducation in
382. Would it be going beyond the mark, then,
to say that you practically were the Minister in
Sir Lyon Playfair.
respect of these primary education questions, and
390. A Scotch Education Board in Edinburgh?
that the Lord President was more consulted,
-- Yes.
because he represented the Department in the
House of Lords, and therefore it was necessary
Chairman.
that he should be well informed ?-I think it was
391. And that, in time. was abolished, and
a little more than that. I think there was the
then the Scotch Education Committee of Council
knowledge that he was officially, and I niay
say legally, the head of the Department. Í
was founded, under which, practically, English
education and Scotch education were administered
suppose the Committee would wish me to say
upon the same footing ?-I think the Scotch
anything that I could say without any breach of
Education Board came to an end after I left.
confidence. I will just mention two things.
When Mr. Gladstone offered me the post, i
i 392. With respect to South Kensington and
remember well that he said it in these words:
the large Vote for Science and Art, were you and
to take charge of the business of Education in
the President of the Council in the same relative
position with regard to that as you were for
the House of Commons; I recollect that he
education purposes ?-I should say that the Lord
added that. Then, further, I can only repeat,
President took a little more practical part with
although personal friendship may have had
much to do with it, that when Lord Ripon knew
regard to that. Lord Ripon and I used to go
that I was appointed, he said, “ Remember, I
down every week to a board meeting at South
- Kensington.
shall always treat you as a colleague.” That was
393. A board meeting consisting of the officers
no doubt owing to his personal relatious towards
of the department, not like the Committee of the
mne.
383. Did your coming into the Cabinet in
Privy Council ?-Yes; consisting of the officers
1870 make any difference ?-No, I do not think
of the department; and the details of purchases
and other matters were more conducted by us
it did. I cannot too emphatically say, and this I
both than they would be in regard to primary
may apply to Lord Ripon's successor, Lord
education.
Aberdare, as well, that I think the natural
394. Were the papers, as a matter of form,
friction which might have arisen on account of
marked to you first and then passed on from
this rather unascertained relation of two Ministers,
you ?-No; as far as I can recollect they used to
and on account of the facts being a little differ-
come before us when we were there.
ent from the appearances, in my case really did
395. On the other days of the week they
not exist, because of the perfect friendship that I
accumulated until the board met?-I think so.
had with those Presidents.
396. What I was leading up to is this, that the
384. So that, in fact, the existence of this, secretary did not pass you over and send papers
whether we call it an anomalous state of things direct to the President? I think I am right in
or not, worked well, because those who had to saying that at that time the secretary, Sir Francis
administer it were not likely to quarrel? Yes, Sandford, had not anything to do with South
and I think that education gained by having two Kensington.
representatives in the Cabinet.
397. Was it all in the hands of Mr. Cole ?-
385. But that, of course, refers especially to Yes.
the time after 1870, and not before that year?- 398. Then, passing from South Kensington,
Yes.
what were the relations of the Committee of
386. Going from the English primary schools, Council in your time to endowed schools. You
had the Committee of Council during your time brought in the Bill ?-I brought in the Bill.
any charge of Scotch education ?-Yes, so far as 399. And how did that Bill affect the Presi-
annual grants and the Council were concerned, dent and Vice President of the Council ?-I
0.51.
really
Council
nual gran of Scotch
03
22
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
11 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. W. E. FURSTER, M.P.
[Continued.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
really do not know that it affected them at all you consider, speaking from a practical and an
officially, I was an official member of the official point of view, that that is a good depart-
Charity Commission, which I quickly found out mental organisation ?-No, I think it is, as a
was an office I had better not attempt to fulfil, matter of permanent arrangement, open to much
because I found I had no ministerial power there, objection.
and that, therefore, if I took part in the thing my 409. Will you kindly tell us in what respects,
vote went for no more than that of anybody else, considering that it is the Vice President who
and therefore I thought I had better leave the has to manage education business in the House
Charity Commission schemes to come solely upon of Commons, who has to conduct the details of
their authority to the House of Commons, and I the office, who is naturally identified in the
found that the other members of the Commission country with education, and upon whom, in the
quite accepted that, and thought I was right in mind of the public, would fall blame if education
that definition. Somebody had to bring in the was considered to suffer? - I think, as a rule, the
Endowed Schools Bill, and as a matter of fact staff appointments ought to be with that mar,
they took the Vice President for that duty in the and not with the other official, to whom those
House of Commons and the President in the remarks do not so much apply. I must repeat
House of Lords.
that I am not speaking now from any personal
400. I mean rather, after the Bill was passed, disadvantage that I was under; I was glad to
what share did the President and the Vice get rid of patronage, and I had the fullest con-
President take in the discussion of the individual fidence in Lord Ripon, and knew that he would
schemes ?--I think that more of the work would do nothing but what was right.
fall upon me, but there again I think, probably, 410. The first change that you would like to
the Lord President would have looked a little see made is, having it clearly understood that the
more at the details than he would in regard to Vice President is responsible for the patronage ?
primary education; and for a natural reason, that —But I have also a stronger opinion than that ;
the schemes had to be defended in both Houses. I think education is a business which must neces-
401. And the schemes had to pass, if I remem- sarily come more before the House of Commons
ber right, a special Committee of Council, had than the House of Lords. In the first place it
they not, in which the Lord President was in the involves a very large vote; it also affects by its
chair? - Yes; that was a mere matter of form. very detail a great number of localities in respect
402. But still, in forn), he was supreme on that to which the representatives of those districts are
oecasion ?-Yes, but that was the most complete much interested. I do not imagine that we
matter of form.
could ever look forward to a time, and I should
403. Then passing from the Endowed Sehools, be sorry to look forward to a time at which
what part had the President and the Vice Pre- education would be as much a House of Lords
sident in settling the Public School schemes ?- business as it is a House of Commons business,
None as President and Vice President
and therefore, though by no means saying that it
404. And in your time did any University ought to be a positive rule that the head of the
schemes come before the Committee of the Privy Department should be in the House of Com-
Council ?—No, I do not recollect that we had mons, I do think it a very great disadvantage
before us any education business connected with that it should be a positive rule that the official
the Universities.
head of the Department should be in the House
405. Do you recollect whether you hid any of Lords.
thing to do with the Irish Vote for Science and 411. How would you bring that about; would
Art Mnseums, and institutions of that kind ?- you keep the existing titles, or would you change
Yes, being responsible for those Votes, I moved then. In the first instance, I will ask you,
them in the House of Comincns; I had nothing would you still keep education specially con-
whatever to do with Irish Primary Education. nected with the Privy Council ?-1 do not see
406. Now, did moving those Voics involve any advantage in keeping it connected with the
your having a knowledge of the state of those in- Privy Council in the slightest degree. Of
stitutions ? —Yes.
course one does not want to make more changes
407. Then, summing up your functions, you than can be helped, but the meaning of the Privy
and the Lord President, between you, had the Council has disappeared long ago. One effect
entire charge of primary education in England of the connection of education with the Privy
and Scotland; you liad, after the passing of the Council is that you write, “ My Lords," instead
Endowed Schools Act, a good deal to do with of saying “ The Minister of Education," and so
the Endowed Schools schemes; you had nuthing forth; it does not much matter whether you
to do with the public schools or the English write “ My Lords," or " Minister of Education;"
Universities; you or your successors have had the but there is no meaning in the statement that
charge of the Votes for the Scotch Universities. the Privy Council are concerned in it; they are
You had not the charge of the London University not.
Votes; you had nothing to do with the Votes for 412. It has become traditionally the practice to
the National Gallery and the British Museum; pass a good many schemes on all sorts of educa-
you had charge of South Kensington and of tional questions throngh the Privy Council, and
similar institutions in Ireland, and that is all ?- they become Orders in Council; do you see no
I think we had charge of similar institutions in advantage in that? I think that it might
Scotland also.
very well be kept, perhaps, as a legal form, but
408. Now you have given us pretty fully the we are all of us aware that that does not imply
functions of Vice President in your time; do that they have been considered in Council; I
mean
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
11 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. W. E. FORSTER, M.P.
[Continued.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
mean to say that we, none of us, could remember First Lord or Secretary of State is in the House
or even imagine a case in which, when the of Lords; that is what you mean ?-Yes.
Council is called together to officially accept 419. Going from that branch of the repre-
such a scheme, any sort of difference of opinion sentation, do you think that the purview of the
would even be thought possible, or any expres- business of the Ministry of Education should be
sion of opinion ; it would be accepted at once as extended beyond the subjects which it now deals
a mere matter of form.
with ?-Yes, I think it ought.
413. You are aware that the two fighting ser- 420. Let me take different points in turn.
vices differ in that respect; in connection with We discussed a good deal the placing of Irish
the War Department the Orders are Orders of Primary Education under the same Minister as
the Department; in connection with the Navy English and Scotch Education; what is your
Department the regulations are Orders of the view upon that point?-I should not be prepared
Council, and practically that is very little more to do that, at any rate not at present..
than a form; you would retain the Navy system ? 421. You would leave Irish Primary Educa-
--I see no particular reason for retaining it or tion altogether outside of the Department ?-
getting rid of it; there may be some legal I certainly should at present.
reason; that is to say it might require some 422. Do you look forward to a time when it
change in legal administration to get rid of it, would be possible to have the Irish Education
but that I cannot tell. My only objection is that under the Minister of Education ?-I think that;
it would be a great disadvantage, though not a supposing there were fewer Irish difficulties,
probable disadvantage, that any reality should be it would probably be the best plan, but I should
attached to the Council; and there is some dis- not suggest it at present.
advantage in these administrative shams, for 423. And is that mainly on the ground of the
they are really that, because there are people in religious difficulty ?—The whole system in Ireland
the country who believe that there is some mean- is very different, and so completely different that
ing in them.
I think there would be rather a difficulty in
414. Then would you do this : would you working them together; and I also think that
establish an Education Department, with a head the practical details of Irish Education ought to
usually in the House of Commons, and a second be conducted in Ireland itself.
officer in the House of Lords, though not exclud 424. Sir Francis Sandford was asked about
ing the possibility of the head being in the this, and attached great weight to two objections ;
House of Lords, and the second officer in the one, that in Ireland the State practically finds all
House of Communs ?--That I think would be the money for primary education; and the other,
the natural mode of managing education business. that it would be almoεt hopeless to have a purely
I inust not be taken to imply by that that it is Protestant charge of Irish education or a Roman
not certain that such minister should have Catholic charge of English and Scotch educa-
nothing to do but education; though I con- tion; do you attach any great weight to those
fees I think that the probability is that education tivo objections ?—That would be an objection,
would be enough for him.
but I think the chief practical objection is that it
415. The plan of the Education Department is a matter in which the details ought to be
being represented by a Peer, and a Secretary of conducted by an office in Dublin and not in
State in the House of Commons would practi- London.
cally in most cases be a good one, in your 425. Would not that be consistent with
opinion ?--Yes.
having a superior minister in London ?-It
:*416. Sir Francis Sandford was examined a would be very difficult.
great deal upon this point, and his objection to it 426. I will now go to Scotch education ; do
was that then if the head was in the House of you think that it is the better plan as now that
Lords, the representative of the Department in one minister should have the charge of English
the House of Commons would be of sufficient and Scotch education, or that the minister
rank; and he said that it was of very great responsible in Parliament for Scotch education
advantage that a Member of Parliament like should be a quasi Scotchman ?-I do not think it
yourself on the threshold of the Cabinet, should would be desirable that there should be two
be the representative of the Department in those ministers for education, one in England and
cases in the House of Commons; do you attach another in Scotland. With regard to the new
much weight to that?-No, I think that in all Scotch Minister who is talked of, I do not know how
these administrative anomalies which exist, be much business he may have, but I think it would
cause of gradual changes in administration, there be a disadvantage that Scotch education should
are always some advantages, because people adapt be joined on to otber business. I think education
themselves to them, and make the best of them. would suffer more by being one of several matters
4:17. On the whole, therefore, you would not that were conducted by a minister than it can
mind taking the risk, if a Peer was the Minister suffer by the office being in London rather than
of Education in whatever form, of the repre- in Edinburgh.
sentative of the Department in the House of 127. You do not consider that there would be
Commons not being a Privy Councillor ?-No, enough Scotch education business alone for a
I think the position of the head in the Ad minister ? —No, certainly not. I doubt whether
miralty or War Office would rather apply. there would be enough for a Scotch Under Sec-
418. Where it very rarely happened that the retary. Perhaps I may be allowed to add that
Under Secretary of State for War or the Secre- the differences between the educational systems
tary to the Admiralty is a Privy Councillor, if the of England and Scotland are very slight.
0.51.
C4
428. Sir
these administo that ?—No, ni time you attach ministers for reduce that there shoulat think it
them always tadual tive anome, sat in thuld would bble in education are the
24
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
11 March 1884.7.
The Right Hon. W. E. FORSTER, M.P.
[Continued.
mat29. think we have the Education Depart. Parliament now community Commission
Chairman-continued.
Chairman--continued.'
428. Sir Francis Sandford told us that the 436. Do you think that the Charity Commis-
process of assimilation was steadily going on? sion itself, which has no ministerial representation,
Yes, that is true, and also, I think, that to a should be subordinate to the Education Depart-
certain extent both countries gain by the infor- ment ?-Most certainly, I think that the schemes
mation which the one obtains from the other. ought to continue to be accepted by the Educa-
+29. I think we have it in evidence that the tion Department.
seniors in the office of the Education Depart- 437. That is not exactly my point. Who in
ment are, a large majority of them, Scotchmer, Parliament now answers on any questions that
and that in that way the Scotch experience has arise about the Charity Commission ?- The Vice
come in very much in aid of the improvement of President.
the English system ?-Yes, very likely.
*438. Therefore it is assumed that he is the
430. Now, passing from primary education to Minister who has charge of that business ?-Yes;
endowed schools, you have told us what the I must here make a distinction. For any educa-
business of the President and Vice President is tional scheme he is responsible; it is initiated by
in connection with the endowed schools; have the Charity Commission, but it has received the
they any opportunity under the present system sanction of the Education Department before it
of knowing how the endowed schools are work- gets to the House; consequently in both Houses
ing; first of all, let me ask, did you propose in the President and the Vice President are re-
your Bill that they should have? That was part sponsible for such scheme. As regards the pro-
of the second part of the Endowed Schools Bill, ceedings of the old Charity Commission, I believe
which, in order to get the first passed, had to be that the Vice President would answer questions
dropped; and I think it is a matter of great with regard to them, but I should not consider
public importance to consider the necessity (I do him personally responsible.
not think that that is too strong a word) of 439. The present Charity Commission consists
having some official organisation by which it can of the old Charity Commission, of the Endowed
be found out from time to time how far the Schools Commission, and of the London Charity
schemes have been fulfilled.
Commission under the Act of last Session ?-Yes;
431. That would be through the machinery but upon that I cannot speak, because it is quite
of inspection and reporting ? -Yes; whether it new to me.
should be done through the present Commission, 440. Supposing the Charity Commission is
or through some modification of that present charged with laches of any kind, and has to be
Commission, or whether it should be done direct defended in Parliament, who does that?-I
to the office, I think is a matter to be considered. should say that, in my time, the defence of the
432. The Commission have a concern mainly, acts of the old Charity Commission would have
have they not, with the finance, and the business fallen to me, because they would fall to no one
arrangements of the endowed schools; the Com- else; but I was not responsible for them.
mission have always looked, have they not, mainly 441. But if that is so, carrying out the general
to questions of finance and business, whereas the principle of Parliamentary responsibility, ought
Education Department, in settling the schemes, not the Education Department to have a certain
looked mainly to the educational result ?-No, supervision over the Charity Commission ?-Yes;
I cannot say that. Under the old Endowed but I must first state that the replacement of the
Schools Commission that was first appointed, it old Endowed Schools Commission by two Com-
was the business of the Endowed Schools Com- missioners added to the Charity Commission was
missioners to devise the best scheme that they not done in my time; it was done afterwards, and
could, and undoubtedly it was their business to I confess that I thought there were great objec-
devise the best educational scheme. It then tions to its being done, and opposed it.
came before the Education Department, and we 442. It was very much contested in Parlia-
formed our opinion upon it.
ment?-Yes, but at the time that I, as Charity
433. But did you criticise to any great extent Commissioner (I do not recollect that I practi-
the financial and business parts of the scheme?- cally ever had to do with it), should have had to
No, I do not think we should.
defend the Charity Commission, or to be their
434. You looked specially to its excellence in spokesman as it were, the Charity Commission
an educational point of view ?-Yes; perhaps I had no educational business whatever.
might remind the Committee that there was 443. But taking things as they are, is it not
rather an elaborate machinery by which persons your opinion that so large an amount of educa-
interested could make their representations and tional business as is transacted by the Charity
their objections to any scheme known, and na- Commission, requires something more than a mere
turally the chief business of the Department nominal supervision on the part of the Education
came to be to consider those objections.
Department ?-Yes, but I should be surprised if
435. But if the duty of seeing how schemes it is a mere nominal supervision. Undoubtedly
worked, especially from an educational point of the supervision of the schemes of the old En-
view, was entrusted to any body, would it not dowed Schools Commissioners was by no means
rather be entrusted to the Ministers of Educa- nominal on the part of the Education Depart-
tion than to the present Charity Commission ?- ment in my time, and as far as I know (1 am now
In so far as it fell to any department, it certainly speaking of what really has happened since I left
ought, in my opinion, to fall to the Education the office), I should imagine that the Education
Department. How far it would be advisable Department is in the same relation with regard
that there should be, more or less subordinate to the educational business of the Charity Com-
to that Department, a permanent Commission, missioners as it was in with regard to the old
I think, is a matter which I need not enter educational business of the Endowed Schools
into now.
Commission.
444. I am
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
25
11 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. W. E. FORSTER, M.P.
[Continued.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman--continued.
444. I am not speaking now of proposed you say the same ?-Nor have I thought about
schemes, of inchoate schemes, or the business up the National Gallery.
to the point of the scheme being settled, but after 453. It is the case, is it not, that the Vice
the scheme is settled has the Education Depart. President moves the Votes for the small similar
ment any knowledge at all of what follows ? - establishments in Ireland ?— Yes.
No, nor, I think, have the Charity Commis- 454. Is not that an anomaly ?I imagine that
sion.
the British Museum administration works very
445. Probably; but is it not your opinion that well at present; but, theoretically, I think it
they should have ?--Yes, but that would require might be better; and as regards the National
the passing of a fresh Act of Parliament. I think Gallery, I think there would be an advantage if
that there ought to be an Act of Parliament the Gallery there were under the same authority
passed by which constant supervision should be as the Museum at South Kensington.
kept over the endowed schools, and that it should 455. Practically, then, you would constitute a
be put into the hands of some Department, and ministry of what the French would call Instruc-
certainly I should put it into the hands of the tion Publique et Beaux Arts Yes.
Education Department so far as Parliament was 456. Covering the whole of the ground, with
concerned, but leaving it as a matter for future the exception of Irish primary education ?
consideration, how far they should make use of a Yes.
permanent body such as the Charity Commission 457. But, of course, with less concern with the
completely under them.
universities than the French Ministry has ?-Yes.
446. Then going to public schools, public In regard to that question, there are one or two
schools are now also organised under schemes rather difficult matters upon which to form a
which went through the Privy Council ?--As decided opinion ; that is to say, how far such a
regards public schools, I think it was a disadvan- Department should or should not have under it
tage picking out seven or eight endowed schools the poor law schools, the industrial schools, and
and making them different from others; and so the Army and Navy schools.
far as it could be done, I would get rid of that 438. What is your opinion on that point ?-I
distinction.
must acknowledge that I did not form a very
447. And you would place them in respect of definite opinion on it; it never came before me
the reports to, and knowledge of the Education to be obliged to form a practical opinion, and
Department, on the same footing as other endowed I see a great deal of argument on both sides. Of
schools ?-Yes.
course the real point is this: it is not merely the
448. Would you give the Education Depart- education of these children that is in question.
ment any greater knowledge of the business of As regards the industrial schools, there is the
the universities which receive grants of public reason why the children have come there, which
money, the Scotch Universities, and the Univer- makes those schools fall naturally under the Home
sity of London and the Queen's Colleges ?-I Office; as regards the pauper children, there is
think the only remark that I should make about the fact of their being paupers, which brings
university business would be that it does seem them under the Poor Law Office; and I suppose
to me that the Vice President and the Lord Pre (though I know but little about them), with
sident ought to be the persons who should answer regard to the Naval and Military schools, there
questions with regard to the universities in is also a great deal of connection with the
either House of Parliament, and who should be Military and Naval establishments. If it was
expected to bring forward Bills with regard to simply education, if education solely was con-
them.
cerned, I should have no hesitation about it at
449. If so, they must have some continuous all; but one has to see how far these other
communication with those bodies, must they not? matters have to be also considered.
I do not think that that necessarily follows; 459. Sir Francis Sandford, I think, told us that
but what I mean is this, that if there is any at one time the Naval schuols and workhouse
Parliamentary business connected with the uni- schools were under the Education Department,
versities, I think it would naturally fall to the and the others were not; and he described the
Lord President and Vice President. It is quite difficulty as due to the fact of one Department
another question how far the Parliamentary con- spending the money and the other Department
nection with the universities should be increased. attempting to have the control, and that it was
450. Or the official connection ?-Or the practically an insurmountable difficulty ?_That
official connection ; that is quite another matter, was not the case in my time.
but I certainly am of opinion that in so far as 460. If the Education Department took charge
there is any official or any Parliamentary connec- of these schoo's they must, must they not, have
tion with the universities, it ought to fall upon the control of the expenditure ?-Quite so.
the Education Department.
461. And, at present there might be some
451. Then, to pass from that to institutions difficulty irá transferring that to the other Depart-
like the British Museum and the National Gal- ment?-Yes. I only say that that illustrates
lery, and similar institutions in Scotland and the difficulty of the question; and, therefore,
Ireland, do you prefer the present system as to when you asked me whether I would put all
the British Museum, in which one of the trustees educatio'nal questions, except Irish education,
moves the Vote, or would you give the Ministry under the Department, I wanted to say that
of Education any supervision and any responsi- upon that matter I think the arguments on both
bility ?—That is a matter which I really have sides 1 jave to be fully considered. .
never thought about.
462. But if the finance was also under the
452. And as to the National Gallery, would Education Department, then you would deci-
0.51.
dedly
like the Britimilar inget the presentes
D
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 19
TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
11 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. W. E. FORSTER, M.P.
Continued.
theoreticary strong ten If you want of
Chairman-continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
dedly think that that should be done ?-I should the Lord President; I think they are now gone
have no doubt about it then.
off to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lan-
caster.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
472. When there is any epidemic in the country
463. I think you expressed your views upon and the question of health is concerned, is not that
the importance of having usually the person who dealt with partly in the Privy Council and partly
moved the Votes a responsible Minister of Edu- in the Local Government Board, so that there is a
cation ?-Yes.
divided responsibility ; in fact, it rests with three
464. Is not the support of education just now departments, because the Home Office also is
from two sources, rates and Imperial votes ?- concerned ?-In my time the dealing with health
Yes.
bills fell to the Privy Council. As Vice Presi-
465. And voluntary contributions of localities? dent, it certainly was my duty to take up those
-Yes; that makes the third source.
questions. There was a vote for certain sums of
466. Does it not seem to be an anomaly that money that were expended with regard to :
he head of the Education Department at the medical investigations which fell to the Vice
present time is invariably a person not in the President.
House of Commons, which is so much interested 473. And that afterwards went to the Local
both in the local rates and the Imperial votes ?- Government Board; but I will ask you, taking
I think it is an anomaly; but in saying that it is my question from your own speech in 1874, is
an anomaly, I must repeat that the working of it not the anomaly at present very like the old
results in another anomaly, which to some extent Japanese form of government, where theże was a
prevents what would be the ill consequences of visible minister and an invisible minister; that
the first, and that is that the real head is not the the visible minister in the House of Commons
official head.
only represents an invisible minister who is the
467. That the real bead, you mean, is the Vice head of the Department, and is called the Lord
President, and not the President?— Yes.
President?-Of course there is a degree of life
468. It is a question of the education of the about all English administration which gets the
common people, and not the education of the better of theoretical anomalies; but there is a
Lords, that is involved in the whole Department? tendency, and a very strong tendency, for it to
-Yes, and it is also the money voted by the be something of that nature. If you wanted
people.
another illustration, perhaps the illustration of
469. The representatives of the people, as I the present Egyptian ministers at Cairo, under
understand you, are chiefly interested in all the their English under secretaries, might afford it.
questions relating to education, and yet the head 474. Has not this grown up like other Depart-
of that Education Department is, with one single ments which have very much thrown off the
exception which we know of in history, invariably fiction of the Committee of Council, I mean the
a Lord President ?-Yes; but in saying that, I Local Government Board and the Board of
think it is a very great disadvantage that there Trade, which are under Committees of Council,
should be that rule, and that it would be better and have thrown off that fiction very much,
that the general custom should be that the head though it still exists nominally?“As regards the
should be in the House of Commons. I do not Committee of Council, it was not merely a fiction
mean to say that there might not be cases in in my time, but it was so much of a fiction that
which, from the exceptional qualities of the man, I can recollect scarcely anything about it. There
it would be an advantage to have the head in the may have been one or two meetings of the Com-
House of Lords.
mittee; if so, I am confident that these were no
470. We know that there are many Lords who more for any real business meetings than Com-
are devoted to education, and if they were mittees of the Cabinet naturally would have been,
selected for the post of Lord President for their and that in fact the business of the Education
educational fitness, you would make no condition Department was as much conducted by the
that the Minister of Education should not be in chiefs of the Department as the business of any
the House of Lords ?-No, I should not; but I other Department in the State, and that we
should like to make another remark here: I think should no more have thought in the time that I
that there is a disadvantage in education being,. was there of having to take the opinion of the
as it were, fastened on to other business. The other Members of the Committee of Council than
official head of education is the Lord President the Secretary of State or the Under Secretary
of the Council, because he is å high officer of for the Home Department would, or than they
State, who has had other business to perform; would in the War Office or the Admiralty.
and when education first became a Parliamentary 475. I think you are the only exception, in
business or an official business, it was but in small your own case, where a Vice President of the
dimensions, and it was put on to the Committee Council ever entered the Cabinet? -I think so.
of Council. It has now become of lawge dimen- 476. And therefore the general result is that
sions, and I think it is a disadvantage zot merely the Education Department is managed by a
that the official head should necessarily be in the Lord President who is not the Education
House of Lords, but that the official hea d is such Minister de facto, but only in name, and that the
official head not on account of education,, but on Vice President who is the de facto Minister has
account of other matters altogether.
very rarely Cabinet influence ? -- Yes, that is
471. There are questions of cattle iblague, true, and the result is that in order that educa-
public health, and many other things con nected tion should be represented in the Cabinet the
with this selection of the Lord President ?- -I do Vice President has to act through another man,
not know how far the cattle questions are 1 ander through the Lord President. But I should like
to
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION..
27
11 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. W. E. FORSTER, M.P.
[Continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
to make a remark here : that although I am term is inconsistent with the fact of his being
strongly of opinion that this is an anomalous chief.
state of things which cannot be expected as a 482. I think I clearly understood you to say
rule to work well, I think that any replacement that you would think it important that Parlia-
of this anomaly by any sort of regulation by ment and the country should be well acquainted
which the head of the Education Department with what is going on in the endowed schools,
should not generally be in the Cabinet, would for which schemes have been sanctioned, and
be a still worse anomaly. I had much rather in that they should be followed up by inspection
the interests of education that the present state and other means of enabling the public to know
of things was continued, than that it should be at whether these schemes are continuing to be suc-
all expected that educatiou should not be a matter cessful schemes, and do not relapse as they for-
represented in the Cabinet.
merly did into bad schools ?-I think it is desi-
: 477. You would not make it, of course, a rable that there should be that inspection, not
condition that the Minister of Education should merely that the public should get information,
be invariably in the Cabinet, but that he should but in order to prevent the recurrence of abuses.
be of such high rank that he might be in the I base that upon this fact : that the reason why
Cabinet ?-And I think there ought to be an we have interfered with endowed schools at all
understanding that he generally was in the is that we have felt that they were not private
Cabinet
matters, but that they were matters which fell
478. Has it occurred to you how a new organ to the State to control; and that argument ap-
nisation might be made without increasing the plies quite as strongly to seeing that the reforms
number of Cabinet Ministers in the country ?- are carried out and are continued.
At present there are two officials, for whom, 483. And at the present time the country
from time to time, business has to be found; one knows nothing officially about, whether they are
is the Lord Privy Seal, the other is the Chan- successful or unsuccessful ?-No.
cellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. The cattle 484. Both in regard to England and in regard
Bills are now handed over to the Chancellor of to Scotland, I think the Vice President of the
the Duchy; it is a good arrangement, but I Council was considered the natural minister to
think that it is by no means sufficient to occupy move the Bills. Mr. Mundella last year brought
the attention of a Cabinet Minister.
in the Scotch Endowed Schools Bill ?-He did,
· 479. You would not keep very much connec- but it does not follow that if there had been a
tion, would you, between such a subject as the Scotch Endowed Schools Bill in my time that
cattle plague or public health and the education the Lord Advocate would not have brought it in ;
of the people?- No.
I think very likely he would ; but I may also say
480. I was going to come to this point: as that as regards the Primary Education it was not
the Lord President of the Council is a high a matter of necessity that it should be brought
officer of State, and has great precedence in the forward by the Lord Advocate, but it seemed to
realm, would it not be possible that the nominal be, on the whole, the best that it should be.
duties of the President of the Council might be 485. I understood you to say that at the pre-
discharged by the Prime Minister, who might sent moment, and under the present conditions of
become ex officio President of the Council, and Ireland, you would not join Irish Education to
so enabling a new Ministry of Education to be an English Ministry of Education ?-Yes; but I
created without constituting a new Minister ? - also gave another reason for that, namely, that I
Of course, I am now asked a question which con- think that the details, such details as naturally
cerns my opinion upon matters generally, and I fall to the office, ought to be managed at an office
suppose the Committee would give no special in Dublin rather than in London.
weight to my opinion on such matters uncon- 486. But would not having an Irish Board, as
nected with my official experience. I think that at present existing in Dublin, be compatible with
what may be called the anomaly of the office of one ministerial responsibility in connection with
the Lord President, which is, that he presides in the whole education of the country ? - That
the Council if he happens to be there, might would be possible, and there would be advantages
naturally fall to the Prime Minister. It is by in it, undoubtedly, if there were not Irish diffi-
no means a necessity that the Lord President culties.
should be at the Council; there are a great 487. Sir Francis Sandford said that his main
many Councils without the Lord President. objection to it was this (I do not think he used
481. Has this ever occurred to you: If the the exact per centage, but I think I may use it
Committee were to recommend the continuance in a question): that as there is now 80 per cent.
of the present Education Department upon its of the education of Ireland supplied by Imperial
old footing of being a Committee of Council on votes, and only 20 per cent. from local sources, if
Education, do you think it would be possible to you brought Ireland into connection with Great
give the Vice President a higher parliamentary Britain there would be a sudden demand from
rank by making him Vice President of the whole England and Scotland for a much greater in-
Council instead of Vice President as he now is crease of Imperial aid than they now obtain.
of the Committee of Council on Education ?-I What I was going to ask you is this : would not
do not think it would make any difference. I the reverse circumstance take place ; would not
think that if you were to go upon the suppo- the example of England and Scotland induce the
sition that the head of the Education Depart- localities and ratepayers of Ireland to accept
ment might be, and would generally be expected, greater responsibilities than they do now?-I am
to be, in the House of Commons, you must get not sanguine of the power of example having
rid of the term “ Vice President;" that very much effect; but with due respect to Sir Francis
0.51.
D 2
Sandford
5285. the whole, the best emate, but it seemed
28
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
11 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. W. E. FORSTER, M.P.
[Continued.
=
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
Sir John Lubbock.
Sandford I do not think there is very much in 494. I think you stated in the former part of
the objection; I think it is an argument that your evidence, that in your opinion it did not
might be used at this monient; but after all, make much difference your not being in the
Scotchmen and Englishmen know very well that Cabinet in the earlier part of the time of your
it is greatly to the interests of education that it holding the office of Vice President; but that
should be paid for by the localities as well as by referred mainly to your own personal relations
the central fund.
with Lord Ripop ?-Yes, it did.
488. Of course you see the great difference 495. As regards the endowed schools and
that in one part of the kingdom, Great Britain, public schools, you expressed, . I think, the
there is a system of compulsory education, and opinion that you saw no reason why seven great
in Ireland there is no system of compulsory edu schools should be treated in a different manner
cation ?-Yes.
from the other endowed schools ?-No, I see no
489. And that one section of the kingdom is
reason except the reason that a very considerable
number of the Members of both Houses have
growing up without the advantages of coinpul-
been educated in them.
sory education, and the other part of the kingdom
496. Is that a substantial reason ?-No, I do
is growing up under the disadvantages of a
not think it is; I think that was the real reason,
voluntary system. If there was one responsible
497. You stated, that in your opinion it would
Minister, would that be allowed to continue for a
be desirable that the votes for the University of
day?-To say that it would not be allowed to
London and the Scotch universities should be
continue for a day would be a strong statement,
because, after all, the feelings of the people of
moved by a Minister of Education, rather than
Ireland must be consulted in the matter. I
by a Secretary to the Treasury ?-I certainly
think that all University Votes ought to be
think that Irish education would to some extent
moved by the Education Department.
gain by coming under an Education Minister in
498. Then, in that case, would you propose
so far as it came before Parliament at all, rather
that the Senate of the University of London
than being mixed up with and being one of the
manifold, almost overpowering number of items
should correspond exclusively with the Education
of business of the Irish Office. I need not remind
Department?-In so far as the Senate corre-
the Committee that the Irish Office really con-
sponds with any Department; but in making
centres in itself a very considerable number of
that reply I do not imply any opinion that there
ought to be more Parliamentary or official inter-
the public departments which exist for Great
ference with the London University than exists
Britain.
at present.
490. Then you made some observations upon
499. You would leave the responsibility to the
the industrial, pauper, and army and navy
Senate so far as they at present possess it ?- My
schools; I do not know whether you have had
answer merely goes to this extent, that I think,
time to read the Report of the Industrial Com-
in so far as the London University becomes a
mission, but they recommend that the inspection
matter for Parliament to deal with, the Depart-
of industrial schools and the payment of result ment that is concerned with it ought to be the
fees should in future be undertaken by the Edu- Education Department
cation Department, and not by the Home
500. But the question of the salaries inust
Office?-I have not read that report, but I can
eventually be determined by the Treasury, must
very well imagine that there would be very it not?--All salaries of public officers are to a
strong arguments for such a recommendation, certain extent determined by the Treasury.
491. Would not the same thing follow with 501. Therefore, of course the result would be
regard to workhouse schools ?-Yes, I think it to interpose the Education Department between
would, but there still would remain another the Senate and the Treasury ?-Yes.
department having much to do with these schools, 502. And you are disposed to think that upon
because the result fees would, of course, not the whole that would be worth while ?-Quite.
maintain them; and, as regards both those 503. Then as regards the British Museum,
schools and the industrial schools, there would be would you propose in any way to curtail the
the difficulty of their being under two depart- present responsibilities of the trustees ?-I really
ments.
am so unacquainted with the details of the
492. But, educationally, the whole motive of management of the British Museum, that I do
such schools is to make the boys productive not think myself qualified to give any answer
members of the community and to fit them for about it.
the educational test required by labour. Now,
is it not very desirable to have all that under one
Mr. James Campbell.
educational department ? --Yes; I think that 504. You gave it as your opinion that the
that is a very strong argument, primâ facie, in present position of affairs with respect to Irish
favour of educational inspection being conducted education was a necessary one ?-İ said that I
by the Education Department, and payment for saw considerable objections to making any
results of education being made by the Educa- change.
tion Department. I think that that might apply · 505. But you think it is somewhat anomalous
to all schools which receive help from the public that the Education Department of this country
funds.
should have no cognizance of Irish education ?
493. Including army and navy schools ?. Yes; I think it is so.
506. Do you think that that anomaly would
become
Yes.
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
29.
11 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. W. E. FORSTER, M.P.
[Continued.
sation
et on reasons why senerally much
cation is any soy gentlema eason whate an Edu-
Mr. James Campbell-continued.
Mr. James Campbell-continued.
become more marked if there was a Minister of should be the case, any more than I see reason
Education instead of education being under the why the Attorney General should conduct an
Committee of Privy Council?-Perhaps it might English Education Bill through the House. I
be more apparent to the public; I do not think need not remind the Committee that in my time
that it would make any real difference.
the Lord Advocate, not because he was the Law
507. It would be more obvious ?-Yes.
Officer, but because he was very much in the
508. But might there not be some relation position of a Scotch secretary, had so much to do
established between the Minister of Education and with Scotch business generally, that there were
the Irish Education Department, without inter- strong reasons why he should bring in an Edu-
fering with the management of Irish Education cation Bill; but I see no reason whatever why
in Dublin ?-It would be quite possible to put by the fact that any gentleman is a Law Officer
the side of, or to put in relation to a Minister of gives him any special right to bring in an Edu-
Education the Irish Board of Education in the same cation Bill.
way as the Irish Board is now put in relation to 515. There has not been an instance of a
the Irish Government, but I should think that University Bill being introduced by the Educa-'
there were very strong objections to having two tion Department ?—No. I should like to give
official heads.
one reason why I think that University business,
509. Do you think it would be an improve- so far as it is Parliamentary business, should fall
ment to connect the Irish Education Depart- to the Minister of the Education Department.
ment, so to speak, with the Education Office I think it is a damage to education generally,
here, rather than with the Irish Government?— and perhaps more to primary education than to
I think that there would be an advantage in other branches of it, to pick out the education of
having education, in so far as it was voted for by a particular class, and to say that that is not
the House of Commons (which, of course, as re- to be conducted by the same minister as conducts
gards Irish education, is almost the whole of the that of others; and I think that education suffers
cost) under a general minister of education, and in from the want of harmony, so to speak, between
so far as regards the promotion of the cause of the different educational institutions of the
education, I think that education would gain by country, which results from that; that it would
being under a general minister of education rather be easier to make a ladder from the primary
than being one of the many matters which fall to schools up to the Universities, if they were con-
the Irish Office; but in saying that, I think there sidered by the same minister, and he were to
would be strong reasons, in the interests of edu regard it as his duty to look at education as a
cation as well as reasons having reference to whole.
Irish feeling, for keeping the administration of
Mr. Pell.
details in Dublin.
516. With whom in your time did the respon-
510. As regards Scotch education, although
sibility for the Vote for the British Museum
it is attended to in the same office as English, and
rest?-Certainly not with me; I suppose it was
uuder the same principal officers, yet is there not
managed in the same way as it is now.
really a separate staff for it in London ?- That
517. Is the question referred at all to the
was not so in my time.
Education Department ?--As Vice President, I
511. There are many points of difference had absolutely nothing to do with it.
between the Scotch education system and the 518. Who moves the Vote now?-Mr. Wal-
English, not of very great moment, are there not ? pole used to move it. I am informed that the
-There is very little difference as far as regards senior trustee moves it now.
the relation with the Government.
519. Now your Department had to do, I think,
512. But as regards the management of schools; with sanitary matters ?-It had; I believe that
for instance, the codes are different ?- The codes they have now been taken from the Vice Pre-
are different; that is to say, there are different sideut.
codes ; but they are after all very much alike;
fter all very much alike: 520. I am not talking of animals but human
and though undoubtedly there are characteristics
re characteristics beings ?--The Vice President, in my time, was
of Scotch education which it would be most un- that member of the Government in the House
desirable to lose sight of, and which any depart of Commons who might have been expected to
ment would not be doing its duty to Scotland if deal with many inatters relating to health. He
it did not keep up.
would have brought in a Health Bill; all ques-
513. And those are retained by having a sepa-
tions of quarantine came to him; he had nothing
rate management in the Education Department,
to do with the sanitary administration of the
are they not?—I do not think that, in my time, local districts.
when we had not the separate management, we
521. Had he to do with the Vote; were any
disregarded them.
sanitary officers appointed by the Privy Council?
514. You spoke of the Education Depart-
-Yes, there was a Vote, not a large Vote, for
ment or the Minister of Education as being the
medical investigations
proper quarter from which Bills regarding the
522. When you were in that department, your
universities should emanate ; but I presume Department was responsible for the Vote?--
you would expect that these Bills should be con-
Yes, for that Vote; and the appointment of the
ducted through the House by the Law Officers officials rested with the Department.
of the Crown for the particular country affected; 523. Can you say how these two subjects came
for instance, for Scotland, by the Lord Advocate ? to be connected, education and sanitary matters;
-I do not see any special reason why that did health grow out of education, or education
0.51.
D 3
out
30
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
57
il March 1884.]
The Right Hon. W. E, FORSTER, M.P.
.
..[Continued.
Mr. Pell-continued.
Mr. Pell-continned.
oựt of health ?-As regarded those two matters, think it is possible that there might have been ;
and also as regarded the diseases of animals, the it is more likely that it might have happened,
fact of the Education Department being respon- though of course there are many more difficulties
sible for them did not arise out of any connection than any difficulty in the mere administrative
of the subjects, nor did one grow out of the arrangements.
other; they all fell to the Committee of Council, 530. You have told us that we have no means
because they were new matters of business of ascertaining in what condition the education
which came up to be considered, and they were of endowed schools is now ?- No.
sent to the Committee of Council as the office 531. Now in the case of the Army and Navy
that might conduct them.
Schools, and the Industrial Schools, and the
. 524. But of course it will be admitted that
Union Schools, there is a sort of joint govern-
eclucation is a greater question now than when
ment there, or there was at one time; the Edu-
those other matters were first relegated to the
cation Department have nothing to do with that
Privy Council ?-Yes. The Vice President is
now?-No, nor had they in my time.
the Vice President of the Committee of Council
532. I think Sir Francis Sandford said that in
on Education, and therefore it might be wondered
the case of the administration of the Factory
at that he should have veterinary questions to
Acts you have two departments, the Education
deal with ; but somebody had to deal with them,
Department and the Home Office acting, the one
and it was thought, I suppose, that he might as
for education and the other for the inspection of
well have them as anybody else.
the factories and looking after the time ? --There
are, legally speaking, no factory schools. The law
525. Did you find this mixture of business
with regard to factory children is, that they must
embarrassing in your time ?- Personally I can-
go to school at certain times, but the schools
not say that I did ; I used to find each of the
which they have to attend are the elementary
subjects a relaxation from the other.
schools of the district, and therefore naturally
526. Now considering the sort of complicated come under the Education Department.
administration of the Education Department, 533. Have not the two departinents to act in
embracing sanitary and other questions, would it be concert in regard to the factories ?-Not in the
your opinion that if there was distinctly a Minister slightest degree, because all that the Education
of Education, these questions of health should never Department has to do with the factory children
be brought into his department, but should be is to treat them just like other children, with the
relegated or left to some other department? one exception, that in the Code some arrange-
Yes, I think so. I think that education and the ments are made with regard to attendance.
fine arts would be enough; if the department 534. Now you told the Committee that the
had all the education of the country to deal with, English people, in your opinion, approve of the
that would probably occupy the time of a charge for education depending upon local funds
Minister suficiently.
and Imperial funds ?-I think they do. I think,
527. Would you say that a subject of such like many other people, they dislike to pay the
great importance would be quite worthy of the local rates sometimes.
attention of a Minister of the highest rank in the 535. What I want to get at is this: in settling
country ? - When you speak of a Minister of the the draft of such an Act as the very important
highest rank, I think that the only thing that is one which you carried in 1870, the question had
of importance is that he should be a Minister of to be considered, how much might be expected
Cabinet rank. Nothing else matters much. The to fall upon the Imperial funds and how much
Cabinet is a very democratic body in one respect upon the local funds; was there anybody to de-
-the members of it are very equal; and I do fend the interests of the local ratepayer at the
not think it much matters whether the Education time that the Bill was drafted, and was there
Minister is a Secretary of State or not, provided anybody to defend the Treasury?- The Treasury
that generally, and as a rule, he is a Cabinet always defends itself ; that is to say, as anyone
Minister. Before you came into the room I said, connected with official life very well knows,
that although I had a strong objection to the every Bill which makes any pull upon the Trea-
present anomalies continuing, I would much sury has to be submitted to a pretty stringent
rather they should continue as they are, than examination by the Treasury. With regard to
that the Minister of Education should not yene- the question of the quarter from which the money
rally be in the Cabinet.
528. Now supposing for a moment that there was our business, the business of the Lord Pre-
was a Minister of Education, do you think that sident and the Vice President, and of the Cabinet
the views which you expressed in 1869, when I generally, to consider most thoroughly that
first came into Parliament, with reference to question, as well as the question of Education.
endowed schools, would stand a better chance of 536. You say that the question of a charge
having effect given to them. First of all, has that would affect the Exchequer would be sub-
any effect been given to those views, may I ask ? mitted to the Treasury, or, at all events, defer-
-I suppose you mean by that, has there been ence would be given to their views; but the
any law passed which keeps up any supervision question of how far the localities might be called
of the endowed schools. No, there is none, and upon to make a payment in reference to a mea-
I think it is a misfortune.
sure was submitted to no one; it was not sub-
· 529. Do you think that there would have mitted, at all events, to the Local Government
been a likelihood of legislation upon that point, Board, which is supposed to be the department
had there been a Minister of Education ?-I that has the surveillance of local interests ?-
No
first coed school yet to the hose views: the
O
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
31
11 March 1884.]
The Right Hon, W. E. FORSTER, M.P..
[Continued.
Mr. Pellm.continued.
Viscount Lymington--continued.
No, it was not submitted to the Local Go- Minister of Education for Ireland ?-I was not
vernment Board. One great principle of the aware of it.
measure of 1870 was that a district was respon- 542. As regards the difficulty of charging Ire-
sible for the education of the children in it, and land with any education rate, was it not the case
that if there were not enough sohools, a district that Sir Michael Hicks Beach's Bill failed owing
was obliged to furnish the schools, and there was to that difficulty. He proposed, I think, to make
assistance given by the Government; and I sup- to successful schoolmasters a certain grant?-I
pose the Committee are aware that that assistance am afraid I must ask the Committee to limit
has been considerably increased since the passing their questions to me to points with regard to
of the Education Act.
my own action; I could not give a satisfactory
answer upon that point; I am perfectly ready to
Viscount Lymington.
answer any questions with regard to Irish educa-
tion that apply to me, questions which I might
537. I understood you to say that you consi-
be expected to answer as having been myself
dered it unnecessary that the seven great public
Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant. I need not
schools should be excepted from the general con- remind the Committee that at that time Irish
dition governing endowed schools, that they education fell to me, that I was the Member of
should be treated differently ?--I think it was a the House of Commons to whom it fell.
mistake originally doing that. May I say how I .
think that happened? I think that the chief reason
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
why there was both a Public Schools Act and
an Endowed Schools Act, was because the atten 543. I suppose you would say that it was de-
tion of Parliament was directed to the condition sirable, as far as possible, to keep educational
of the public schools before it was directed to questions free from party politics? -Yes, in the
the condition of the endowed schools. I do not same way as it is desirable to keep army affairs
think that it arose from any special desire on the and navy affairs free from them
part of the public schools, or people connected 544. In the debate last June you are reported
with them, to keep themselves distinct from the in Hansard to bave said: “The real objection”
other endowed schools, but I think that their (that is to say to the proposed changes)“ pro-
condition came as a very pressing matter before bably was that it was undesirable to make too
the attention of the public and Parliament earlier much of education, that if we were to have a
than that of the endowed schools.
Minister of Education he might be pushing things
538. Then do you think that if there were any on too quickly ;” bearing that in mind, does not
legislative changes it would be desirable that the the present system in regard to education make
public schools should be placed under the same the whole organisation of the office less subject
conditions as the other endowed schools ?-I to party attack than probably would be the case
think that if a Bill was passed, which I hope if we were to have one supreme Minister for
eventually may be passed, keeping up a super- Education, with cabinet rank, and having all
vision over endowed schools, it ought to apply to educational patronage in his hands ?-No, I do
all endowed schools, and that these schools we not think it would make any difference. I re-
are speaking of should not be excepted from member that passage in my speech; I meant to
them.
say that I thought that was the objection in other.
539. I want to ask you a few questions about men's minds; it was not in my own.
Irish education; is not one of the objections 545. And you are also reported to have said
against making a Minister of Education a Minister that it was desirable that the educational appoint-
also for Ireland, the difficulty of applying the ments should be in the hands of one man and
principle of compulsory education in Ireland ?- not of two, and that the country should know
No, I do not see that there should be any objec- who was responsible for them ?-Yes.
tion on that ground; I think that whoever was 546. But, as a matter of fact, do not you think
the Minister of Education, if the Irish education that the country, that is to say that part of the
came under him, would have to consider the cir- country which takes interest in educational
cumstances of Ireland as regards compulsory matters, practically does know who makes the
education in the same way as the representative appointments ?-No, I think not; I think that in
of the Irish Government in the House has to do. my time, certainly, it was supposed that the
540. Do not you think that the poverty of the Vice President had a great deal more to do with
people, and the difficulty of raising money from the appointments than he had. I think it was a
the rates, added to the difficulty of establishing a very natural supposition; I think people supposed
system of undenominational education in Ireland, that the practical head of the department would
make it very difficult to apply the same principles appoint the officers of the department; and I can
there as in England ?-But your question now is remember that when I told them it was not the
how far I should be of opinion that compulsory case there was much astonishment.
education ought to be at once extended to Iré- 547. Then the Vice President, being looked
land; that is quite a different question from upon in the country practically as the Minister
whether it is or is not desirable that education in for Education, you think, if I rightly gather your
Ireland, under whatever system it be carried on, meaning, that supposing any complaint was to
should be under the same Minister as education arise about the appointments made by the
in England.
Education Office, the Vice President would be
541. The Duke of Marlborough, I think, did prejudiced by the complaint ?-No, I do not
propose a Bill which would have established a think he would, because I think he would quickly
0.51.
D 4
explain
32
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
11 March 1884.7
The Right Hon. W. E. FORSTER, M.P.
[ Continued.
1
Mr. Herbert Gladstone-continued.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone--continued.
explain that he had nothing whatever to do with of these schools ?-I am not sure about that.
them.
The two questions are perfectly distinct. I
548. Then, supposing that the appointments
have no doubt in my own mind that there ought
that are made continue to be satisfactory to the
to be some law passed by which security should
public, and no complaints arise about them, is the
be taken that reform schemes are kept in full:
present system of patronage a real argument for
operation, and that abuses do not recur. That
changes in the office ?--Yes, I think it is, in this
is quite another question from the machinery by
way: it does not follow that because an appoint-
which you should do that. It may be better that
ment is not so unsatisfactory that the public
that machinery should be independent of the
make a remark upon it, it is the best appointment;
Government of the day and more permanent than:
and I think that, as a general rule, it is better
is the machinery with regard to elementary
that the man who is responsible for the conduct
schools ; but I am also of opinion that it cannot
$C.
of a department should have the power of
be a perfectly independent body, but that it must
choosing the people by whom that department is be to some extent under the Executive Grovern-
to be conducted. That is the natural course of
of ment, and that the department of the Executive
things. I do not mean to say that the present
Government under which it ought to be should
I be the Education Department.
system has done much practical injury; and I
beg to explain once more that I am not giving
my own personal experience; because, in the first
Sir John Lubbock.
place, I think that Lord Ripon was quite as
likely, probably more likely, to make a good 552. You told us, if I understood you correctly,
appointment than I was myself; and, secondly, that when you were Vice President you used to:
he would have listened with the greatest pos- attend about one day in the week at South
sible consideration to any remark I had to Kensington ?-The Lord President and I used
make.
to go down together once a week.
549. Sir Lyon Playfair asked you your 553. In order to make yourself acquainted
opinion with reference to the proposal that has with the working of the institution ?- That is
been suggested, that the Prime Minister should be the way that we managed South Kensington ;
ex officio President of the Council; but supposing we might go more than one day in the week if
that that plan were to be adopted, what would
there was pressing business, or, if there was
be the relation of the Prime Minister in regard to
pressing business, Mr. Cole would come up to
patronage ?- That is upon the supposition that the us; but I believe there has been an alteration
President of the Council no longer is an Education since, and now the Permanent Secretary of the
Minister. Then the educational patronage would Education Department has much more to do
fall to whoever was the Education Minister, in the with South Kensington than he had in my time.
same way as patronage falls to any other head of At their board meetings, as I think I have stated,
a department. But I should like to make this
we used to decide upon purchases.
remark with regard to the Prime Minister being
554. I presume, if the British Museum was
ex officio Lord President of the Council, that I
placed under the Education Minister in the same
see no objection to that, provided it is a mere
matter of etiquette. The work of the Prime
way, he would have to go once a week or so to
the British Museum to make himself acquainted
Minister is far too stringent and pressing and
with its working ?-I should think he would.
multifarious now for any real addition to be made
to it.
550. Do you think that there would be any
Sir Lyon Playfair.
difficulty in getting the public school and en-
555. In the case of the Science and Art De-
dowed school authorities to fall in with a scheme
for the inspection of the schools or for furnishing
partment, that is entirely under the executive
annual or periodical official reports in regard to
administration of the Education Department ?-
them ?-I think that any Bill that was passed
Entirely.
556 'In the case of the British Museum the
with regard to these schools would immensely
interest the managers and masters of the schools executive part is under trustees appointed by the
and I do not know what opinion they would give,
Crown?-Yes.
and I carefully refrained from saying that I had 557. With whom the executive responsibility
made up my mind that it ought to be a direct rests ?-Yes; and the Vice President of the
supervision by the Education Department; but Committee of Council has nothing to do with
if it be a supervision by any board or by any that.
that.
commission, then that board or that commission 558. In the one case it is a Ministerial respon-
ought to be subordinate to the Department. I sibility, in the other case it is the responsibility
can see arguments in favour of a commission of trustees ?-Yes.
somewbat like the present Commission carrying
on the inspection.
Viscount Lymington.
551. But you do not think that the proposal to 559. I understood from your replies to me
bring the endowed schools and public schools that the whole responsibility for the efficiency of
more directly under the influence of the Educa- Irish education falls upon the Commissioners of
tion Office would meet with any violent oppo- the National Board of Education of Ireland,
sition on the part of the masters and authorities that the responsibility of the Chief Secretary is
indirect ?
boy ang Deparkbe a dihad
tion Officectly under the role and publir oposal to
ON EDUCATION SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
ut
11 March 1884.7
The Right Hon. W. E. FORSTER, M.P.
[Continued.
Viscount Lymington-continued.
Viscount Lymington--continued.
indirect ?--The Irish Secretary has to answer extent of the Irish Government. As Irish Secre-
questions with regard to the condition of educa- tary, I, myself, had nothing to do with the details
tion. If much fault were found with it, I think of the business conducted by the Board.
he would naturally be called upon to defend
it, and he or the Lord Lieutenant would be
560. You were not therefore really cognisant
blamed if no defence was forthcoming; but at of the details of the educational system ?-No,
the same time the Board has a very great deal not
has a very great deal not necessarily.
of power, and has power independent to a certain
0.51.
MINUTES OF. EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
Tuesday, 18th March 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT :
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Viscount Emlyn.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Herbert
Viscount Lymington.
Mr. Pell.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
MR. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, IN THE CHAIR..
The Right Honourable Lord CARLINGFORD, K.T. (attending by special permission of the
House of Lords); Examined.
Chairman.
Chairman-contiuued.
561. You are, I think, Lord President, and would it reach you?-I certainly should expect
Lord Privy Seal?-Yes.
it to reach ine, and according to the under-
562. How long have you held the office of standing which prevails I should say that it
Lord President ?- Nearly a year.
would reach me.
563. As Lord President you have been the
570. And if there was a serious complaint
head of the Education Department of the Privy
about the action of a School Board, would that
Council ?-Yes.
reach you ?-Yes, I should say it would, if it was
a serious matter, and especially if it was likely
564. With Mr. Mundella as Vice President ?
to come before Parliament.
-Yes.
571. Or such a question as whether there
565. We are inquiring into the organisation should be a School Boa
should be a School Board for a particular district
of the machinery under which the votes for
or not, would that come to you ?-Not if it
Education, and Science and Art, are proposed to were å simple matter of routine. or a case
Parliament; can you tell us to what extent the
which was not one of difficulty or likely to
education business under those Votes, and we become one of public interest
will take first, the Primary Education Vote for
ote tor
570 W
572. Would you define it, then, as a rule that
Great Britain, comes to you?- The ordinary de- if
if a matter was likely to come before either
tails of education business, in regard to Great House of Parliament you would be pretty sure
Britain, do not come to me.
to be consulted with regard to it?-Yes, that is
566. That is to say that when a paper in the one of the reasons which, as a rule, lead to a par-
Education Department has to be dealt with ticular paper or subject finding its way to the
the Secretary takes it to the Vice President?- Lord President. .
Yes, as a rule, in the case of ordinary papers. 573. Do you suppose (you cannot of course
567. And it only reaches you if the Vice
ice
speak with cert
speak with certainty on the point) that you
President desires to have your judgment?-Yes,
take about the same part in the business as
that would be generally the case. It would
your predecessors took ?-I believe that I take
generally depend upon the Vice President
about the same part as my immediate prede-
whether he sent the paper on to me or brought
cessor took.
it to me, or not.
574. That was Lord Spencer, was it not?-
568. We had it from Sir Francis Sandford, Yes.
who has just left you, that he did not think that 575. Do you suppose that you take as great
more than one in a hundred of the papers which a part in the business as Lord Ripon took when
went to the Vice President reached the President; Mr. Forster was his Vice President?-I am not
would you concur in that view ?--I am not able sure, but from the tradition of the office I am
to speak to that point as to the proportion; I inclined to think I do.
only know that an immense number of papers do 576. Then there is one part of the business
not go beyond the Secretary; and certainly far that Sir Francis Sandford has taken to you
the greater number of the papers which do go
daily without its going through the Vice Presi-
beyond him to the Vice President do not come
dent at all, that is the patronage ; is that a cor-
on to the President.
rect way of stating it?-Yes, as far as the
569. Now I will put aside the Code and the Secretary is concerned, it is his duty to bring
great annual decisions and take the current busi- those questions to me direct, and not to send
ñess of the Department: Suppose there was a them through the Vice President.
serious complaint against the inspectors would 577. Is there any rule as to your consulting
that be dealt with by the Vice President or the Vice President, or is it in your own breast
whether
1. ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
• 18 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. Lord CARLINGFORD, K.T.
[ Continued.
fainly not in would rather say the Ministry., f
Chairman-continued.
Chairman- continued.
whether you should do so or not?_There is at 592. But you have had meetings of the Scotch
present, whatever may have been the case pre- Committee, have you not?-Yes, there have been
viously, a distinct understanding that the Lord two or three since I became President.
President should consult the Vice President. 593. You have had one lately, if I am not
: 578. On all questions of patronage ?—Yes. mistaken ?-Yes.
579. Do you include in patronage the promo- 594. Do you remember how many members of
tions of the higher officers ?-Yes, I include pro- the Committee attended ?-Two.
motions.
595. Did you do much business ?- We settled
580. And do you include the movement of the an important question.
higher officers from one part of the country to 596. A litigated question or a mere question
another ?-Yes, I include those.
581. With respect to all these questions of ministration; it was a question which required
the higher personnel, you and the Vice Presi- the advice of the Lord Advocate; it was a
dent act jointly ?-Yes, that is to say, it is also question of the validity of schemes which are now
understood that the final responsibility remains coming in under the Scotch Endowments Act,
with the Lord President; but I do not do any- and it was a decision which would govern a great
thing of the kind that you have described without number of schemes.
full consultation with the Vice President.
597. But had it reference to primary education?
582. Do his initials appear on the papers of It related to the Scotch Endowments Act.
appointment, or yours only ?-I think mine 598. I was only dealing with primary educa-
only.
tion in my questions to you on this point ?– The
583. It is therefore an understanding of late meeting of the Scotch Committee the other day
years, which has no official character, and which did not relate to primary education in the ordi-
would not be discovered from a reference to the nary sense.
papers, that you consult the Vice President ?- 599. Have you had any meeting of the Scotch
I think it may be so; it was stated by the Prime Committee which did relate to primary educa-
Minister in the House of Commons, and it is tion?-I am not quite certain, but I think there
perfectly well known in the Department.
has been one which was held last summer.
· 584. I will ask you what is perhaps a rather 600. Sir Francis Sandford told us, I think,
delicate question ; if you were asked who is the that informal meetings of the Committee as to
Minister of Education for Great Britain, would Scotch business were not absolutely unfrequent;
you say that you were ?- In a sense, but cer- that you do from time to time ask your colleagues
tainly not in the full sense of that word.
in an informal way to meet you, or that the Vice
585. You would rather say that you and the President asks them to meet him ?-Yes, I
Vice President were jointly the Ministry of believe that has been so.
Education ?-Yes, that is nearer the truth, I 601. But so far as you can recollect, there has
think. There is a Department of Education, but been no formal meeting of either the Scotch or
it cannot be accurately said that there is one the English Committee as to primary education
sole Minister of Education.
for some time?-I cannot say positively whether
586. Now passing from primary education in the meeting that I remember of the Scotch
Great Britain, first of all, to primary education Education Committee related to primary educa-
in Ireland; you know nothing about that, I pre- tion or not.
sume, in your capacity as President of the 502. You and the Vice President have, I
Council ? - Nothing as President of the Council, presume, the power to do everything that the
certainly.
law requires in regard to the Committee ?-1
587. So far as the business of the Council is think so.
concerned, you never hear about Irish schools at 603. That is to say, you two are a Committee
all ?--No.
of the Privy Council for Education ?-Yes.
588. Then as to the division between English 604. So that the summoning of other members
and Scotch business, Sir Francis Sandford er of the Committee is a matter which lies with
plained to us that you and the Vice President yourselves when you want some extraneous ad-
had the same duties with respect to Scotch educa- vice ?-Yes, that is so.
tion that you have with respect to English educa- 605. Passing, then, from primary education to
tion, and that the secretary under you also is that part of your business which concerns the
equally secretary for both parts of the kingdom; Endowed Schools ; there are still schemes, are
there is, however, is there not, an English Com- there not, for Endowed Schools which you have
mittee and a Scotch Committee ?-Yes.
to deal with ?-Yes.
589. The Scotch Committee not consisting of 606. Do any come to you from the Charity
the same persons as the English Committee ? - Commission for English schools still ?-Yes.
That is so.
607. And you have also business in connection
590. Now to what extent are you, in adminis- with the Scotch Endowed Schools ?-Yes; the
tering primary education, assisted by the Com- schemes are coming in for Scotland now fast.
mittee ?- There has been no meeting of the 608. So far, then, as the formation of schemes
English Committee since I have been President for Endowed Schools is concerned, you do per-
of the Council.
form the functions of a Minister of Education,
591. Has there been no meeting, either formal you and the Vice President forming a Ministry
or informal; have you never summoned any of of Public Education ?- They come through my
your colleagues to advise you in the Council hands as well as his.
Office on these questions?- No; I think not 609. After the schemes have been framed, and
during these months.
have gone through the formalities, and are in full
0.57.
E 2
operation,
soleannot be accuraepartment or edhe truth, oi
· 36
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
18 March 1884.]
:
The Right Hon. Lord CARLINGFORD, K.T.
[Continued.
my minschools anything of
failure
No, so lo ascertaz by inspecer sch
Chairman--continued.
Chairman-continued.
operation, do you ever hear anything more about should know anything of the good working of
them ?- No, not officially.
public schools ?-I cannot say that I have given
610. Suppose a scheme is badly worked out, my mind to that subject.
suppose it ends in disappointment and failure, 625. There is no school, I think, technically
that the education is not up to the intended called a public school in the receipt of public
mark, and so on, do you hear of it afterwards ?- money out of the Votes of Parliament?-No.
No, so far as my experience goes. We have no 626. Therefore on the Estimates there is
means of ascertaining the progress and working nothing to defend in regard to such schools ?-
of these schemes by inspection.
No.
611. So that these higher schools about which 627. Then passing from the public schools, still
Parliament has concerned itself so much of late higher, has the Committee of Council any official
years, differ entirely from the primary schools in knowledge of the condition of those universities
that respect, that when once schemes are settled which are now in receipt of public money out of
nothing more is known of them ?-Certainly. the Grants of Parliament?-No.
612. Do you not think that a great blot ?-I 628. Take the London University which re-
think it is; I think it is a great want in our ceives a large endowment; you know nothing
system.
about its working ?-No, we do not.
613. How would you remedy it ?--I cannot 629. Or the Scotch Universities ? -No; the
say that I have thought the matter out, but I only connection that I know of between the
think there ought to be a power of inspection and Privy Council and the Universities, is in the
the means of inspection,
shape of the Universities Committee.
614. Do you mean in co-operation with the 630. That is the English Universities ?--Yes,
Charity Commissioners, or under the Privy the English Universities.
Council itself ?--It would be going beyond the 631. And the business of the Universities
present functions of the Charity Commissioners, Committee is coming to an end, is it not? - There
of course; but they would be able, I should say, has been no meeting of the Universities Com-
to give great assistance to the Privy Council in mittee since I have come to the Education Office,
such work.
but it is a permanent Committee.
615. The Charity Commissioners, or the old 632. Would it be your opinion with respect
Endowed Schools Commissioners, or the Come to the Universities which are the subjects of the
missioners in connection with the City of London Grants of Parliament, that there should be any-
Endowments, and so on, frame the whole thing like an Annual Report to the Education
scheme of education for these schools, do they Department and to Parliament?-It would seem
not?-Yes.
very reasonable, but I am not aware that evil is
616. And it comes to you as framed by them ? caused by the absence of it.
-Yes.
633. If one of those Universities receiving
617. They therefore, in framing the schemes, large sums of money from Parliament fell into
have considerable educational functions ?-Yes; bad management, which I suppose is conceivable,
educational questions arise constantly; charity how would Parliament know anything about
schemes.
it?-I think Parliament would be pretty sure to
618. You advise them, I suppose, with special know enough about it.
reference to their educational character ?-Yes. 634. But how could Parliament call anybody
619. And you are looked upon, I presume, as to account, if the Ministry of Education was
more responsible for their educational excellence ignorant on the subject ?- There would be no
than even the Charity Commissioners are ?- We Minister or official body to call to account; the
have to defend them in the Houses of Parlia- only body to call to account would be the Univer-
ment, and the Lord President is very liable to sity itself which was misusing its Parliamentary
have to defend them.
funds.
620. There is no member of the Charity Com- 635. But is it not the general principle that
mission in either House, I think?-I think not when a Vote is asked, from year to year, for any
now; there was one not long ago.
institution in the country, there is somebody who
621. But there is no official member in either has to explain the Vote, and who therefore must
House?-No.
be able to explain anything that goes wrong ?-
622. Then would it be your opinion that the No doubt.
supervision of endowed schools should be brought 636, And he can know nothing about what
under the Committee of Council, pretty much as goes wrong, if he is not in official communication
primary schools are under the Committee of with the institution ?- That is so.
Council ?-I cannot say that I have thought out 637. Then passing from the Universities, you
that question, as to the mode in which such have under you also, I think, all the South Ken-
a reform should take place; but I agree with sington business ? - Yes.
you that the want of some supervision is a 638. And some of the kindred institutions in.
blot.
Scotland and Ireland ?-Yes.
623. You have no doubt as to the improve- 639. As to these you act, do you not, as a
ment that is required, but the exact way in which Minister, that is to say, the good management of
it should be effected has not been fully con- the institutions is under you, and you are re-
sidered?-No, not by me.
sponsible for it ?-Certainly.
624. Then, going from the endowed schools to 640. Are the relations between you and the
the public schools, which have also been the sub- Vice President in managing those institutions
ject of schemes, do you consider that it would be the same as they are with respect to primary
well that the Ministry of Public Education education ?-Much the same; but I should say
that,
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
37
18 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. Lord CARLINGFORD, K.T.
[ Continued.
.
Yes.
hat I leave to builty of Museu
in that olutely vuestio for their and the key
Chairman-continued.
Chairman--continued.
that, according to the usage of the Department, 657. And defend their own Estimates in Par.
the President of the Council takes a larger part liament?-Yes.
in the affairs of South Kensington and its branches 658. Do you think that a satisfactory arrange-
in Dubliu and Edinburgh than in the affairs of ment?-No, I should not say it was.
primary education.
659. Would you say that the Ministry of
* 641. Sir Francis Sandford told us with regard Public Education should include the general
to South Kensington that there was a Com- charge of such a body as the British Museum
mittee or Board which met once a week under the Trustees ?--I think there is much to be said for
presidency of yourself or the Vice President?- that.
660. If the British Museum Trustees were
642. Consisting of the principal officers ?- supposed to be guilty of some great mistake, who
Yes, certainly; I always attend it.
would have to defend them ?. That is a question
643. And does the Vice President also attend that I feel is difficult to answer. I do not feel
it?-Yes.
that it would be more my duty to defend them
644. You are in the chair, I presume ?-Yes. than that of any other Cabinet Minister, because
645. And it is a working Board ?- Thoroughly, I am absolutely without connection with them.
and a most convenient institution. Of course it 661. When a question arises in some great
is a consultative Board simply.
grant which they seek for their own purposes,
646. That is to say, that you and the Vice does anyone stand between them and the Trea-
President are responsible for all its decisions ?- sury, so far as you know ?--Not so far as I know;
Entirely.
certainly not the Education Department of the
647. And you overrule them if you do not Privy Council.
agree with them ?--Of course; but it has the 662. So that the Department which is ex-
effect of saving a vast amount of correspondence pressiy by its constitution concerned with inatters
between South Kensington and Whitehall, and of art, does not advise at all in that branch of
of disposing of business I think much more art for which the Museumn Trustees are ap-
rapidly and more efficiently than could be done pointed ?—No, there is no sort of connection be-
by mere correspondence.
tween the British Museum and South Kensing-
648. Colonel Donnelly is your secretary for ton.
that department, is he not? - Colonel Dunnelly 6 63. And the First Lord of the Treasury, who
has for some time been assistant secretary, being is not necessarily acquainted with art, has to be, for
alsu science director; he has combined the two the moment, responsible for the question of art
duties.
when the Museum Trustees, who are irresponsible,
649. Did Sir Francis Sandford, and does his are wanting an additional grant?-Yes. I pre-
successor, attend the meetings of that Board ? sume you, yourself, would be the natural person
Mr. Cumin does not. It has been thought un- to call that body to account, as guardian of the
necessary that the secretary at Whitehall should, public purse.
as a rule, attend those meetings unless some 6 64. Although the Treasury is not supposed
question affecting primary schools happened to to know anything about art ?-No.
be on the business of the day, in which case he 6 65. It is not constructed with that object?
might (lo so.
No, certainly not.
650. But usually in its scientific aspect, so to 666. Then as to the National Gallery, do you
speak, Colonel Donnelly takes charge of the also think that the National Gallery and the
business ?.--Colonel Donnelly brings all the busi- National Portrait Gallery should be under the
ness before me and the Vice President, as a Minister of Education ?-Perhaps you are carry-
rule.
ing me on a little too fast, because I am bound to
651. And that is the same with respect to point out one distinction between South Kensing-
kindred institutions in Dublin and in Edinburgh?ton and the institutions you are speaking of'; and
:-Certainly.
that is that we are not, certainly not primarily
652. Can you tell me what are those for which or mainly, concerned with art at South Kensing-
you are responsible in Dublin ? - The Dublin in- ton merely as fine art; we are concerned with
stitutions in connection with the Science and Art industrial art, with art in its application to
Department are the Royal College of Science, industry.
Science and Art Museum and Art School, Royal667. True; but in order that you may be well
Botanic Gardens, and National Library. The versed in matters concerning the application of
Royal Hibernian Academy also receives its grants art to industry, you have a very large body of
through the Department, and reports to it. men with the highest knowledge in art at South
653. And will you also state those in Edin- Kensington whom you can consult?-Yes, we
burgh for which you are responsible ? At Edin- have some of that character.
burgh there is the Science and Art Museum. 668. And you are looked to as the Depart-
654. You have no official connection, I think,
ment of the Government which is the only Art
with either the British Museum or the National
no Department, I think?—Yes, but it is art culti-
Gallery ?- None whatever.
vated for a particular object.
669. You have been good enough to give us a
055. The British Museum is managed by a succinct account of what the business of your
body of trustees who claim to be under no Department is; do you think that first, with
Minister ?—Yes, that is so.
respect to primary education, the arrangement
656. And who, by tradition, present their own works well ? —I do.
Estimates with the Queen's approval, signified 670. You do not wish to see any change?-I
by the Privy Council ?-Yes.
am not able to see sufficient reason for an essen-
0.51.
E 3
tial
38
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
*
.
."
18 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. Lord CARLINGFORD, K.T.
Continued.
671. Suggestinister of Educatio of Trade is a
Chairman-continued.
Chairmun—continued.
tial change. Nothing in my experience so far has have you any wish that Irish Primary Educa-
led me to believe in that necessity.
vion should come, in any way, under the Com-
671, Suggestions have been made that there mittee of the Council ?--Not the least. I think
should be a Minister of Education, very much it would be the greatest possible mistake even to
as the President of the Board of Trade is a raise such a question.
Minister of Commerce-generally in the House (81. Sir Francis Sandford gave us two strong
of Commons, occasionally in the House of Lords; reasons against it; one the religious difficulty,
if he is in the House of Lords, having an Under and the other the financial difficulty ?- They
Secretary in the House of Commons; if he is both exist; but there is a third, which is stronger
in the House of Commons, having an Under than either, and that is the national difficulty,
Secretary in the House of Lords; do you prefer the national feeling.
the present arrangement to that?-I do.
682. That is to say you think that the cir-
672. Would you be good enough to give us cumstances of the two nations in regard to
your reasons ?--My general view of the present education are so different that it would be almost
system is that while it is certainly anomalous, as impossible to harmonise them in one Supreme
has been always admitted, and while it has certain Body?-I should really look upon it as a wanton
inconveniences and disadvantages, those incon- interference with the Irish Administration.
veniences, such as they are, exist almost entirely 633. I think we have got your view as to the
within the Department itself and affect the connection of the Privy Council with the En-
members of the Department, and I think that dowed and Public Schools and Universities, and
they have very little effect indeed upon the the only other change which you think desirable
interests of the public or of the House of is, that you should have some supervision over
Commons.
such bodies as the British Museum and the
673. You do not think that, considering the National Gallery ?-I do not give any very
very large proportion of business in education positive opinion upon that point; I think there
which is done in the House of Commons, and the is a good deal to be said for it.
great educational questions which arise in the 684. Then, on the whole, you would leave
House of Commons, there is any inconvenience things as they are, except in regard to the in-
in the Minister there who has to represent the spection of the. Endowed, and possibly of some
Department, being ex necessilate only a subordi- Public Schools, and, with doubt, the supervision
nate?“He is a subordinate of a very uncommon of the British Museum and the National Gallery ?
kind, and he is, in fact, a very important and -Yes.
powerful officer ; but I am not able to see that 685. There are also some outlying schools, if
under the change proposed the House of Com- one may use the expression, with which the
mons would have any more effective control Council sometimes has and sonetimes has not
over the Votes for Education or over the manage- had concern, Ármy Schools, for instance; have
ment of the education of the country than it you any supervision of them now?-I think
has at present.
not.
674. Suppose you and the Vice President 686. They are considerable in number, with a
differ upon some important question of education, large body of children ?-Yes.
I presume you prevail ?—The Lord President 687. Are you of opinion that they ought to be
has certainly a right to prevail. What the result brought under the Privy Council for the pur-
of a very serious difference of that kind might poses of inspection, and so on ?-I should think
be, would be another thing.
it might be very advantageous to those schools.
675. Either you do prevail or you do not; if 688. Navy schools in the same way ?-Yes.
you do prevail, then the Minister who has to 689. As to workhouse schools, do you think
speak in the House of Commons has to defend that the workhouse schools ought to be inspected
something which he does not agree to; if you do and dealt with like other primary schools ?-
not prevail, then he is really Minister; is not Yes, I think that the Education Department
that a crux ?-I think it is much more theoretical is better able to exercise a supervision over
than practical.
them than any other departinent can be, and
676. That is, that for many years past the that is the case in Ireland as to workhouse
two have agreed very well ?-Yes.
schools.
677. That there have been no difficulties 690. With regard to industrial schools and
practically ?-It no doubt requires a good under- reformatory schools, are you satisfied with the
standing and mutual consideration between the present state of things ?--I bave very little know-
two colleagues.
ledge of those schools myself; of course, they
678. Mr. Forster mentioned to us his great are partly institutions having a punitive cha-
personal friendship with Lord Ripon, and said racter.
that the consequence was that everything at 691. We were told, I think, by Sir Francis
that time went smoothly; but cannot you con- Sandford, that the difficulty in bringing the super-
ceive of governments in which it might be very vision of these schools under the Privy Council
much the reverse ?-I do not think it requires is this; that the expenditure could not very well
great personal friendship; it requires a good be made part of the Privy Council Vute, and
understanding and due regard to the position of therefore you would have one department in-
either of the two colleagues by the other. specting and deciding what was necessary, and
679. At any rate your experience is, that the the other department having to pay for it; do
system has worked well ?-My experience and you think that that is a practical difficulty 2-1
belief is that it works well.
think it is.
680. Now with respect to Irish Education, 692. And, therefore, if those schools were
brought
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
.
39
18 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. Lord CARLINGFORD, K.T.
[ Continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
brought under the Privy Council, the expendi- mode in which they acted should be known to
ture would have to be brought under the Privy the country through the Education Department?
Council also ?--There would be a difficulty in -I can understand that there may be much to be
having them under the divided government of said for that change. I confess that I do not know
two departments.
what evils there are that require a remedy.
693. I dare say you remember cases in Parlia- 706. At the present moment there exists a Bill
ment where a good many questions have been which was brought in last year by the Govern-
asked about particular inefficient schoolmasters; ment, and which is promised again this year,
the inspecting department called them ineffi- effecting very considerable changes in the Scotch
cient, but the spending department would not Universities, and increasing the Votes for them ;
raise the pay, and therefore could not get better would it not be a proper thing that that should
men ? - That is an awkward state of things. be taken charge of by the Education Department
694. That could only be cured by bringing instead of by the Home Office ?-Yes, that would
the two under one hand ?-Yes.
be a very natural thing if you had a department
695. Of course in a real Ministry of Public concerned with education in all its branches.
Instruction, such as exists in France, all that 707. But practically you are much more now
would be done? I cannot say that I know the than a primary education department; you take
functions of the Ministry of Education in the Science and Art for the country to a con-
France.
siderable extent under you ?-Yes.
696. However, you do not wish such a depart- 708. You have science schools and art schools,
ment formed here, and you would rather leave and you have the museums, and even a Royal
things practically as they are, with those small school at Dublin, a school of science, and a
modifications which have been mentioned ? school of science in London of a considerable
Yes; I am not at all convinced of the necessity character?- That is so.
of any fundamental change.
709. Therefore it is now becoming more of an
educational department generally, than one of
Sir Lyon Playfair.
primary education alone ?-It has extended its
697. You are probably aware thaù all the Votes functions somewhat beyond primary education,
under Class IV. are moved by the Vice Presi- strictly so-called.
dent of the Council in the House of Commons ? 710. Could not the sarne relation exist between
—Of course.
the British Museum and the National Gallery
698. And those Votes include the Vote for the and the Education Department as I have put to
Scotch Universities ?-Yes.
you with regard to the universities, leaving their
699. But, beyond moving the Vote under general management in the hands of Trustees,
Class IV. for the Scotch Universities, the Privy but making à ministerial responsibility to the
Council has nothing to do with them in any House of Commons for the Votes?-I think that
wav?-No.
would be a very possible arrangement.
700. Are you aware that a very extensive 711. You mentioned that you would scarcely
Government patronage is carried on in connection call yourself a Minister of Education, but that
with the Scotch Universities, but that it is the Ministry of Education was in a sort of Com-
wholly administered by the Home Office; I mission between yourself, as Lord President, and
allude to the appointment of professors ? I only the Vice President?— Yes,
know generally; I have little or no information 712. But are you ever consulted, for instance,
about it.
in regard to the numerous questions that come
701. But do not you think that it is an anoma- before the House of Commons with regard to
lous thing that when there is an Education education; I mean the every day work of con-
Department, the Home Office should appoint the tinually answering questions in the House of
professors of the Scotch Universities ?-There is Commons ?-No; not the every day questions,
an Education Department, but it is a Primary The understanding is that the President
Education Department, after all.
of the Council should be consulted upon any
702. But I think you stated that you thought question of novelty or of serious importance or
the Universities ought to be brought into relation of principle that arises, and especially upon any
to that department?-I do not think I said that change to be made in the conditions of the
703. I thought you said that if the country grants; any change in the Code, for instance.
wanted any information as to how those univer- 713. On all questions of public policy? - Yes;
sities were proceeding, and whether they were questions of policy and principle, and questions
doing very badly, they ought to be able to get of any exceptional difficulty.
that information through the Education Depart- 714. But practically, as regards primary edu-
ment?—You mean universities enjoying Parlia- cation, the Vice President is, as Mr. Forster said
mentary Votes? -Yes.
in his evidence, the real acting Minister of Educa-
704. But if they were brought in that way tion ?- Yes, in the ordinary daily administration
into relation to the Minister of Education, would of the grants.
it not be anomalous that the control of the con- 715. But with a chief who, if he chooses to be
ditions essential for their success, the patronage, disagreeable, might interfere with his executive
should be vested in another department ?-Yes, administration ?-He, of course, might, but there
I think it would.
is a usage and understanding which always pre-
705. I suppose you would not interfere with vents undue interference.
the autonomy of these universities (at present 716. We will take the case of a very strong
they are perfectly independent), but you would man being Vice President, wishing to carry
desire that all sources of information as to the particular views that were distasteful to the
0.51.
E 4
President,
Bons of policy difficulty cards primary said
. 40
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
18 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. Lord CARLINGFORD, K.T.
[Continued.
the would be there but I am not ne Irish
Sir Lyon Pluyfair-continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
President, through the House of Commons; English education in this country goes ?-I cer-
either the Lord President must go or the Vice tainly should.
President must go; which would be the one 728. But even supposing that you kept the
likely to go?-No doubt such a case wiuld management of Irish education under the pre-
be referred to the Prime Minister and the sent Board of Conimissioners as it is now, do you
Cabinet, and it would be decided partly by not see some convenience in having a Minister to
the feelings of the two Ministers concerned, and answer, in this country, with regard to the effi-
partly by the decision of the Prime Minister and ciency with which the Commissioners are con-
the Cabinet upon the general interests of the ducting their business ?- The Minister who
Government.
answers is the Chief Secretary for Ireland.
717. But viewing the likelihood of that case,
729. But is he not a very overworked man,
is not the real Minister who takes charge of the
and one who has very little time to attend to
education of the people likely to go, while the education - confess that I think it would be
Lord President, who does not do the active ad- more satisfactory to the Irish Members and the
ministration, will remain in charge ?--I see no
Irish people to have a Minister immediately con-
danger of the event occurring, but I am not at
nected with Ireland answering for Irish educa-
all sure that that would be the result upon your
tion rather than the English Minister of Educa-
supposition, which is that of a very strong Vice tion.
President holding an important position in the
730. You know the striking difference, that
House of Commons.
there is no compulsory education in Ireland, and
718. And not being in the Cabinet ?-In spite that there is compulsory education in Great
of his not being in the Cabinet.
Britain ?-Of course.
719. We have seen various cases of differences
between Ministers during the existence of a
Mr. Herbert.
Ministry, and I think generally it is the sub-
731. You said that by an understanding that
ordinate Minister who goes ? - Yes, but it must
prevailed, supposing an inspector was complained
be borne in mind that the Vice President of the of or anythino of that sort such a comulaint
Council for Education is not an Under Secretary would come direct to you?-Yes, if it was a
720. The Duke of Richmond, in his evidence serious case.
which he gave before another Committee, says · 732. Only if it was a serious case?-I should
that he is an Under Secretary, and he says, “I say only if it was a serious case.
am the Minister of Education;" giving evidence 733. But then again, I think, you said that
as Lord President he says that he looks upon there is also an understanding which prevails
him as an Under Secretary, and in no other light? that a great deal of the patronage, although really
-I was not aware that the Duke of Richmond in your hands, is divided between you and the
had gone so far as that; I should say that was Vice President; that you submitted it rather
going too far.
to the Vice President ?-I should not use either
721. The system works well just now, because
of those words. It is not divided, and I do not
there has been a cordial co-operation in education
submit it, but I take the Vice President into
on the part of the Lord President and Vice Pre-
the fullest consultation.
sident for many years ? ——Yes, but these systems
734. That means, I suppose, that it was a
which are established by usage are very apt to voluntary concession on your part of certain
hold their ground and to work very much more
powers which you possess ?-Yes, that is so,
smoothly than might be expected beforehand in legally speaking; but that extends very much
theory.
beyond patronage ; because if you take merely
722. Supposing that the Government for the the words of the Order in Council which
first time had been forming a Ministry of Edu- created the Vice President, you would find that
cation when they established a national system of the position of the President of the Council is
education in 1870, would you have created this supreme; but this particular understanding is a
plan ol administering it through the Privy Council very (listinct one entered into at the desire of the
then ?-No, I am not prepared to go as far as Prime Minister.
that.
"735. Then with regard to this division of
723. It is only because it exists and has labour which we hear of, we find that you take
worked well that you support it?—Yes, and more the leading part in the Science and Art
because I see very great difficulties in finding a Department, for instance, leaving the primary
good substitute for it.
educational work to the Vice President? --I said
724. You are aware that Lord Beaconsfield's that it happens by usage, that the President of
Government once introduced a Bill to create a the Council does take more part in South Ken-
sixth Secretary of State for educational pur- sington affairs than he does in the ordinary
poses ?-Yes.
educational work. There is greater variety at
725. But that Bill was not proceeded with ?- South Kensington; there are apt to be questions
No; I think it was a strange proposal, and I of greater novelty. The great bulk of the edu-
should be very much surprised if it was ever cational work is routine work, requiring a great
made again.
deal of labour and discretion, but consisting in
726. The proposal of having a sixth Secretary the application of rules already laid down..
of State is what you strongly object to ? - Yes. 736. There is no reason, is there, why, sup-
727. I think you stated that you would be posing a Lord President was very anxious to take
strongly against interfering with Irish education part in primary education, he should not take
so far as bringing it into any connection with the more part in that branch himself if he chose ?-
The
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION)..
41
18 March 1884.7
.
The Right Hon. Lord CARLINGFORD, K.T.
[Continued.
Mr. Herbert-continued.
Mr. James Campbell-continued.
The amount of knowledge that any particular cil?-I think that is so. I think this whole
Lord President wishes to obtain as to all the question depends largely upon what could be
affairs of the office depends a great deal upon substituted for the present system, and what one
his own tastes; but any serious encroachment could expect might be substituted for it; and I
upon the present arrangement and understanding can see great difficulties in securing, under
upon the part of a Lord President would, no another system, that the Education Department
doubt, lead to complications.
should invariably be represented in the Cabinet.
737. Now with regard to the Committee in I think that if it were not, all interested in edu-
Council, you say, I think, that the English cation, and certainly all connected with the De-
Committee of the Council has not met since you partment, would feel it a great come-down, so to
have been Lord President; do you attach much speak, and feel it a great loss of weight and
importance to the existence of that Committee ? power and safety.
--I can hardly say I do; but then I have not
had experience of it. I think there are circum-
stances and cases in which it may be very useful.
Viscount Lymington.'
I believe it was summoned, for instance, by
746. I was not in the room at the time, but I
Lord Spencer when the last Code, the Code
believe that you stated that you were in favour
that came into operation last year, was on the
of educational inspection of certain endowed
anvil.
schools which at the present time are outside the
738. But it was only I fancy submitted to
inspection of the Education Department ?-I was
them, laid before them, after it was completed ?-
asked by the Chairman if I did not think it a
Yes. I may say that there had been a vast
blot that there were no means, when once an
amount of informal consultation with experts
endowment scheme had been formed, of ascertain-
upon that subject, but that of course was not the
ing how it was going on, and I said that I thought
same thing as a formal Committee.
it was a blot. Of course I was speaking of
739. Mr. Forster rather gave us to understand
educational endowments.
that it would be an unheard of thing for this
Committee to interfere in any way, by suggesting
747. Would you be in favour of the inspection
alterations or otherwise, with the actual arrange-
by the University Board, of public schools, such
ments made ?-It would be an awkward thing
as Eton and Harrow ?-I should rather not give
if the Committee were to outvote both the
an opinion on that point. I have not had occa-
President and the Vice President.
sion to form any definite opinion on it.
740. It would be an impossible thing, would
748-9. Would you have any objection to my
it not? --They could do it, but no doubt it would
asking you any questions connected with edu-
be avoided somehow.
cation in Ireland from your experience as Chief
Secretary ? - None at all.
741. Do not you think that matters might be
carried on just as well by what I should call
750. Do you think it would be possible to
Departmental Sub-committees, very much the apply compulsory education in Ireland, subject
same sort of Comınittees as you have for South
to certain exemptions, dependent upon the pecu-
Kensington ?---Committees of that kind do meet
liar social and local as well as national peculiarities
at the Education Department now; and also for
of Ireland ?-I should hope it would; I have
instance, annually, the Code is revised by con-
not followed Irish education rery closely of late
sultative Committees of that kind ; that has years, but I should hope it would be possible.
been the case only the other day with respect to 751. Mr. Forster had this question put to him
some considerable alterations that have been by me : “I understood from your replies to me
made in the Code which we have just issued. that the whole responsibility for the efficiency of
742. Do you not think that institutions like
Irish education falls upon the Commissioners of
the British Museum and the National Gallery,
the National Board of Education of Ireland, that
which are at present outside your Department,
the responsibility of the Chief Secretary is indi-
might be brought into the Department and worked
rect?" and le stated in reply, “ The Irish Secre-
very much in the same way as they are now, but
tary has to answer questions with regard to the
under your jurisdiction and managed by De-
condition of education. If much fault were
partmental Sub-committees ? - It is quite possible.
found with it, I think he would naturally be called
I really do not wish to give a very positive
upon to defend it, and he or the Lord Lieutenant
opinion upon that subject, because it so happens
would be blamed if no defence was forthcoming;
that I have not given my mind to it.
but at the same time the Board has a very great
deal of power, and has power, independent to a
certain extent of the Irish Government. As
Mr. James Campbell.
Irish Secretary, I, myself, had nothing to do
743. The present system of administration
with the business conducted by the Board.” Is
i think practically works very well ?-_Yes it not, in your opinion inconvenient, that while
Do vou see a distinct advantage in having the National Board of Education of Ireland has
the Education Department connected with the practically the control over details of education,
Privy Council ?-I think there is a distinct ad-
and receives a very large sum of money voted
vantage in having a Minister of the standing of
annually by Parliament, the Irish Chief Secre-
the Lord President connected with it and ready
tary is not in a position really to understand the
to answer for it.
working of the system ?-I think he is in a much
745. There would not be the same opportunity,
better position than a Minister sitting in White-
you think, of having an officer of that rank unless
hall would be.
the Department was connected with the Coun 752. You could not throw out any idea as to
0.51.
F
the
*42
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
18 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. Lord CARLINGFORD, K.T.
.
[Continued.
satis
the ho them
uld be
Viscount Lymington--continued.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone-continued.
the possibility of bringing this National Board 760. But are there gentlemen inspectors in
into a more direct responsibility towards the the office with sufficient knowledge of the
Government or Parliament ?-I should be very systems in work at these schools to enable the
sorry indeed to see the attempt made to merge it Department to supervise satisfactorily the edu-
in an English Educational Department. I be- *cation given in them?-There is no spare
lieve it would be greatly resented in Ireland, strength in the office as it now stands which
and would be a great mistake.
could be devoted to such new work as that.
761. Would not the Department then have to
Viscount Emlyn.
be strengthened by the addition of gentlemen
753. Presuming some alteration to be made in who were, more or less, directly connected with
the present arrangement, and the Lord President the public schools, and had a knowledge of the
to be made the practical Education Minister, work that was going on there in order to carry
would it be possible for him, under those circum- out such a system of inspection ?- It is well
stances, to continue to perform the duties he has known that there is no Department in the State
now ?-Certainly, I should say so.
which contains so many highly educated men as
754. If he had to take up the details now car- the Education Department, both in its exam-
ried out by the Vice President, it would not, you iners and inspectors, and they would be perfectly
think, be putting too much work upon him ?- qualified for such work; but the existing staff
No, I do not think it would. It is an office of have got enough to do as it is.
such a nature that the vast majority of the de-
tails do not come to either of the political Minis-
Chairman.
ters; in that respect, it is something like the
Board of Trade, with which I am fainiliar.
762. You gave us some interesting evidence
755. Would not that seein to point to the just now as to what matters came before you
Department being rather overmanned, having which are likely to be of a Parliamentary char-
rather a waste of strength ?You mean in acter, and what do not; now one Member of the
having two political Ministers? I think every Committee is especially interested in a question
Department must be represented by two political which we dealt with in the House of Commons
Ministers. The difference in this Department is lately, I mean the proposal to constitute Aberyst-
that, from the fact that the Lord President, as with as one of the three colleges permanently
an almost invariable rule, sits in the House of endowed in Wales; did that question come
Lords, the office of the Vice President, repre- before you ?-Very much.
senting the Department in the House of Com- 763. That is the class of questions that would
mons, lias become an office of very great weight reach you ?-Yes. It so happens that I have had
and importance; and no doubt if the Lord Pre- a good deal to do with these Welsh colleges.
sident had taken his turn, like other Ministers, 764. A question of that importance would be
sitting at one tine in the House of Lords and at sure to go to you?- Yes. Before I leave there
another time in the House of Commons, the are two observations that I should like to make
Vice Presidency would not have attained its which have not been brought out by questions.
present importance.
One is this: I see that it was assumed, in the
756. It was pressed upon us, I think, by Sir course of the debate last year which led to the
Francis Sandford, that it would be very de- appointment of this Committee, that the Presi-
sirable to keep the two equally strong Ministers dent of the Council had just had new and oner-
in the Education Department that there are at ous duties laid upon him as head of the Agricul-
present, and for that reason he deprecated any tural Department, which was supposed to be a
change; now is there any reason why it should be reason for relieving him of any educational
necessary that the Education Department should duties; I should like to say that that is a mis-
be more strongly represented in both Houses take; the arrangement made last year when
than any other Department?-I think so, for the the Agricultural Department was created, and
reason I have just given. I may say that un- when the Chancellor of the Duchy consented to
doubtedly if, under a new system, at anytime the act on the so-called Agricultural Committee and
President of the Board of Education, or whatever to represent agricultural business in the House of
you like to call him, were sitting in the House Commons, has been distinctly an assistance and
of Lords with an ordinary Under Secretary in relief to the Lord President; and so far as that goes,
the House of Commons, the House of Commons therefore, it tells the other way. The other point is
would be much worse off' in point of control over this: I should like to call the attention of the
Education than it is now.
Committee (I think it is interesting) to the
757. But not worse off than the War Office is
recommendation made by the then Sir John
now or the India Office ?-No.
Pakington in his Draft Report of 1866, which
758. Or the Admiralty ?--That is so.
never got beyond a draft. The way in which he
recommends the creation of a Minister of Edu-
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
cation and the reason he gives for it are remark-
759. In reference to the proposal for a system able. He says: “The public have a right to
of inspection of the Public and Endowed Schools, expect from the Education Department the
I wish to ask you, would the Education Depart- establishment of an effective system which shall
ment at the present time have sufficient know- penetrate every part of the country. With this
ledge of the systems adopted in these schools view there should be a Minister of Public
to enable it to carry on such an inspection with Instruction, who should propose to Parliament
advantage ?- It would derive its knowledge such measures as the extension of education
through its inspection.
might require." I think it is worth while to
point
.
rse of the of this Comust had new ang
apient of the id upon hinh was suppo educ
ON EDUCATION; SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
18 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. Lord CARLINGFORD, K.T.
[ Continued.
Chairman--continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
point out to the Committee that the very object 766. There is one question I forgot to ask you;
for the sake of which Sir John Pakington recom- do you see any indispensable necessity for the
..mended the creation of a new Minister of Public Lord President, supposing he continues to be
Instruction has been obtained, a dozen years ago, the Minister of Education, always being in the
under the existing system.
House of Peers ?-I cannot say that I do..
767. If there was an equally iinportant man
Sir Lyon Playfuir.
who was required by the Government, as a .
i. 765. As to that, was not the Minister of Edu- Member of the Cabinet, to superintend educa-
cation, who really carried through that national tion, you think he might be Lord President and
measure, the Vice President of the Council ?- still a Commoner ?-Are you speaking of a Pre-
No doubt, in the main, he was. What amount sident of the Council, may I ask ?
of assistance he obtained from the Lord President 768. I am assuming that the President of the
of the day I do not know ; I know that in the Council continues to be the responsible Minister
last important revision of the Code the Lord of Education ; do you see any need that he should
President, Lord Spencer, took a very important always be a Member of the House of Lords;
and most useful part; but what I wished to point could not the Lord President be a Commoner?
out was, that that great object referred to by --He certainly can, legally, and I see no reason
Sir John Pakington has been obtained under why he should not occasionally sit in the House
the existing system.
of Commons.
The Right Honourable Lord GEORGE FRANCIS HAMILTON a Member of the House);
Examined.
Chairman.
Chairman-continued.
769. You were, I think, Vice President of the of being overruled ; and if the Vice President
Council in Lord Beaconsfield's Administration? was overruled by the Lord President, I think
-Yes.
his position on any question of importance would
770. For how long ?-I was Vice President be a very awkward one.
from April 1878 to April 1880.
775. Therefore may we take it that the papers
771. For the last two years of that Govern- in the office would not bear the Lord President's
ment?-Yes.
initials in those matters, but would bear yours,
772. We have had a great deal of evidence as
you having verbally consulted hiin?-I think in
to the distribution of the business in the Educa-
almost all cases where I consulted him he put his
tion Department, between the Lord President
initials to the papers; but of course, as regards
and the Vice President; and I will first take
questions in Parliament, there would be no re-
primary education in Great Britain; is it the case
cord of any such conversation having taken
that all the business, except the patronage that
place.
goes to either the Vice President or the Lord
776. Then with regard to patronage in your
President, is brought by the Secretary to the
time, was the patronage, not only in name, but
Vice President ?-Yes, all the business. Per-
in reality, in the Lord President's hands?
haps the most convenient way in which I could
Entirely.
give evidence would be to state what the arrange-
777. He consulted you, I suppose, from time
ment was that was made in my time.
to time ?-No; he gave me the power of putting
gentlemen whom I thought qualified, on his list,
773. Will you do so, if you please?-I must
and he selected from the list which was before
commence by stating that when I was appointed
Vice President I was under the impression that
778. And he selected from the list without
the Vice President was the head of the Educa-
consulting you?-Without consulting me.
tion Department; but I found, on looking at the 7 79. Virtually, then, the patronage was really
Acts and the Order in Council, that there was the Lord President's ?-Entirely in the hands of
no question that the Lord President was the the Lord President.
legal head of the Department. The Duke of
780. When you speak of new questions of
Richmond was then Lord President; and I
policy being always discussed with the Lord
entered into an understanding with him, by which President, may I take it, in the first instance, to
where new points or questions of policy were name the most important, that the annual Code
raised, they should go on to him; and I also
was always so discussed ?--Yes; but whaierer
undertook that in cases in which questions were
arrangement is made between the Lord Presi-
put in Parliament or discussions were likely to dent and the Vice President, it really ultimately
arise, I should go and talk the matter over with resolves itself into the Lord President becoming,
him. With that exception the whole of the more or less, a registrar with regard to what is
business was done by the Vice President. done in the Education Department. I may
774. And you, I presume, as to the second mention, for instance, the Estimates. The Vice
branch, what you sent to the Lord President, President most carefully goes through the
judged whether it was likely that a question in Estimates with the Accountant who prepares
Parliament would arise ?-Yes. I, as a rule, them; I do not believe that the accountant has
always went myself to see the Lord President, ever seen any Lord President in reference to the
and I did so because I was always a little afraid Estimates. The same occurs as regards the
0.51.
Science
F 2
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
18 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. Lord GEORGE HAMILTON, M.P.
[Continued.
183. 'n
weiten by the Secretary and the Vice busively
principation of the the Lordoint of gois
Chairman-continued.
Chairman--continued.
Science and Art Department at South Kensing- Lord President in the House of Lords can ever
ton, and the Estiniates relating to it. The have.
Annual Report again is, I think, exclusively 783. In your time was the Scotch business
written by the Secretary and the Vice President; managed in the same way ?- The Scotch business
it is subinitted always to the Lord President, was managed much in the same way, but there
but I think there is hardly a case on record were not nearly so many Parliamentary questions
where he has.made any substantial alteration. connected with it, and the Duke of Richmond
781. How would you define the new questions, had an exceptional knowledge of Scotland, and
which you spoke of, as one of the two branches he took great interest in the reorganisation of
in which he acted ?-Every now and then a that branch of the Education Department that
question would arise on the administration of the now is known as the Scotch Department.
Code, or the interpretation of a particular section 784. So that with respect to Scotland, the
of the Education Act, and we might be in Duke of Richmond took a more active share in
some difficulty as to arriving at a satisfactory the work than he did in the English business ?
settlement of the case submitted to us, and Yes, and I think it was entirely through him
it might be necessary to lay down some new prin that the Department was reorganised.
ciple, or some principles, a little different from the 785. The Committee of Council have also
principles which had hitherto regulated the ad- under them what is known as South Kensington ?
ministration of that particular part of the Code. -Yes.
In that case, if the Lord President was in 786. We have had it in evidence that the pre-
London, I always made a point of going to see sent practice is for a weekly board to meet, over
him on the subject; but when he was out of which the Lord President or the Vice President
London I think there is hardly any instance presides, and where they meet with all the prin-
where a case was sent on to him.
cipal officers; was that the practice in your time?
782. And did you invariably, when there was -Yes.
a prospect of a discussion in Parliament, consult 787. Did the Lord President take a larger
him ? --- Almost invariably. I perhaps may be share of that business than of the primary educa-
permitted to say that I had the advantage of tion business ?-Yes; he did more work in con-
serving under the Duke of Richmond as Lord nection with South Kensington, but still not
President; and the Duke is a near relative of nearly as much as the Vice President.
mine, and was exceedingly considerate to me, 788. But his share of that work was larger
and allowed me very free access to him, and than of the primary education business ? - Pro-
inade our relations persopally as pleasant as 'it portionately it was larger.
was possible for them to be; but what I always 789. There are also, under the Education
felt was that if I had had to deal with a Lord Department, a number of scientific bodies in
President who was determined to act upon the Scotland and Ireland ; for instance, the National
position which the law give him, the position of Gallery in Scotland, the Royal Society of Edin-
the Vice President would have been absolutely burgh, the Royal Observatory of Scotland, and
untenable, in my judgment. Perhaps I may be the Botanic Gardens in Edinburgh, and so on;
permitted to add that the business at the Educa- did you look after the whole of that business, or
tion Office is of rather a peculiar character. I was it shared between you and the Lord Presi-
fancy there is more semi-official or extra-official dent?-During the two years that I was at the
correspondence there than in almost any Depart Education Office there was practically no business
ment. The Vice President lives in the middle transacted in connection with these bodies,
of the Education Department, and he is sur excepting as regards the Scientific and Art In-
rounded by the officials of that Department. stitutions in Dublin ; they were then being
The Lord President does not. The Vice reorganised.
President having the control of all the business 790, The Royal Dublin Society and the Irish
in the House of Commons, practically does Academy especially ?-Yes.
nineteen-twentieths of the Parliamentary busi 791. You had to move the Votes, I think, had
ness connected with the Education Department you not, for these various institutions ?-I had to
The consequence is that everybody who comes move the Irish Votes, but not the Scotch. My
up to the Education Departinent to see the impression is that I did not move the Scotch
officers of that Department on business tries, if Votes for the institutions that you have men-
possible, to see the Vice President, and not the tioned. It was during the time we were in office
Lord President. The consequence is that the that we established the Art and Science Depart-
Vice President is daily brought into contact with ment at Dublin, taking over certain functions
gentlemen interested in education in different from the Royal Society; and both the Lord
parts of the country, and he has an enormous President and myself hail a great deal of trouble
amount of correspondence, making suggestions in putting that Act of Parliament into operation.
of one kind or .another, either for alterations to 792. And you shared the business in that
lie made in the Code, or for fresh legislation. matter pretty much as you did in the case of
The Lord President is absolutely cut off alto- South Kensington ?--Yes; the bulk of it fell to
gether from all these sources of information; and me, but the Lord President took great interest in
what I felt, after being a very short time Vice it, and I think was fully cognisant of everything
President, was that, making all allowance for the that was going on. He deputed me to go to
superior political position and capacity of the Ireland and to look into the business, and then
Lord President, the Vice President got a touch, let him know what I thought on the matter.
so to say, of all the daily phases of the education 793. Then passing from that business, which
question, which it is absolutely impossible that a you seem to have shared with the Lord Presi-
dent,
in the in
that we think ord Presides; the
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
45
18. March 1884.]
The Right Hon. Lord GEORGE HAMILTON, M.P.
;
[Continued.
O
since I have had to these endowed are become a
Chairman-continued
Chairman-continued.
dent, to other branches of education, I will take which they could get thoroughly satisfactory
the endowed schools. The Committee of Council information. Unless they could be certain that
had a great deal to say to the scheme under which the information which they derived was tho-
the endowed schools are now managed; but after roughly reliable, I think it would be almost
a scheme was fully established did you know better that they should not be made respon-
anything of the result ?--No. All we undertook sible.
to do was to see that the schemes were good 801. Perhaps I may put it in this way: The
schemes in themselves, and in accordance with Queen's Colleges in Ireland do present annually
the principles of the Endowed Schools Act. through the Irish Office reports to Parliament;
794. And when the scheme became law, and might it not be well that the universities which
the school came under its operation, there was receive grants from Parliament should be dealt
no inspection, and you had no knowledge whether with in the same way ?- I think it might be ;
it was successful or unsuccessful ? - None. because it is always competent for any Member
795. Did it occur to you that there was a gap of Parliament to object to the Vote, unless the
there that might be stopped, and that it would Accounting Department, so to say, can give him
be a good thing that the Education Department information.
should know the result of what they have taken 802. Supposing there was a scandal or some
so much pains in establishing ?- Since I have grave complaint against one of the Scotch univer-
left the Education Department I have become a sities or the University of London, who would
trustee to one of these endowed schools; and have to defend it in Parliament ?- Unquestion-
since I have had to discharge those duties it has ably the Department that was responsible for
occurred to me that there ought to be some the Vote.
supervision to see that the intentions of Parlia- 803. That would be either the Education De-
ment are being realised; and the only method partment or the Treasury ? -Yes.
that I could suggest would be that there should 804. And how could either of those Depart-
be inspectors appointed for that purpose. As ments defend it, unless they knew something
the endowed schools do not receive any annual about it?--That difficulty undoubtedly would
grant from Parliament, except those which are arise; but, I think, it would require some con-
elementary schools, it would not be necessary sideration as to what the machinery should be
that the inspection should be an aunual inspec- through which they should get the information;
tion; it inight be only a periodical inspection; and I should not like off-hand to say that the
therefore it would not entail any great addi- same system of inspection as would answer in
tional number of inspectors.
secondary schools is adapted to larger and more
796. Would you aprly the same principle to important bodies, such as universities.
the public schools which have been reorganised 805. But whatever machinery is, after due
under schemes under the Public Schools Act, reflection, considered the best, you do think that
the great Public Schools Act I am speaking of ? there should be some method by which Parlia-
- I think that is hardly necessary. The great ment might be informed of the condition of
difference, it has always seemed to me, between bodies for which it provides large sums? -Un-
primary and secondary education is this, that the doubtedly; the very difficulty which you have inti-
children who attend grammar schools or public mated might arise, and I think reason would be so
schools have locomotive power; their parents can strongly on the side of the objectors that the
select the school which they think will give them Government would be forced to take measures to
the best education. That is not the case in pri- meet it.
mary education ; the children must go to a school 806. I will carry you now to other institutions,
in their own locality. Therefore you really have for instance, the National Gallery and British
in the numbers that attend these large public Museum; they receive large grants from Parli-
schools tolerably accurate tests as to their effi- nent?-Yes.
ciency ; but I can see no objection to occasion- 807. They exceptionally, from time to time,
ally having them inspected and reported upon. ask for special grants from Parliament ?-Yes.
797. Did you move the Vote in your time 808. They are not in any way, I think, con-
for the Scotch Universities ?-No, the Treasury nected with the Education Department?—No,
did.
they are not.
798. And therefore you did not hold yourself 809. Therefore, is it not the case that, though
in any way responsible for that Vote ? No. the Education Department contains a great deal
799. Did you move the Vote for the Univer- of official art information, and it is looked to in
sity of London ?-No; in my day we were only connection with South Kensington as an autho-
responsible for the Votes connected with primary rity upon art subjects, they do not advise the
education and South Kensington. Of course I Government at all in dealing with the National
am excluding those other Votes of the Privy Gallery, and the Portrait Gallery, and the British
Council.
Museum, but that is left to the Treasury ?-I
'800. The Scotch Universities and the Univer- believe the institutions you have named are all
sity of London, being educational bodies for together outside the cognizance of the authorities
which Votes are moved, and which are therefore at South Kensington.
supported by grants of Parliament, do you think 810. Take an instance : last year there was a
that the Education Department ought to have very important question raised as to the purchase
any cognizance of their condition, that it should of a very valuable collection ; that, as you know,
receive reports about them, or place any infor- never went near the Education Department ?
mation before Parliament on the subject? It is --No.
rather difficult to suggest any machinery by 811. It had to be dealt with by the Treasury,
0.51.
F 3
the
46
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
.
18 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. Lord GEORGE HAMILTON, M.P.
:
[ Contiued.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
the members of which might know something the end of that month the House would not
about art, or might know nothing; at any rate tolerate that style of answering, and would insist
it was not within their official responsibility upon his taking a more direct responsibility upon
to have any knowledge of art; would it not have himself. It seems to me that the presentar-
been better to have interposed such a department rangement is more or less of a legal fiction, and
as the Education Department between the British that it is one which only works satisfactorily by
Museum and those who had to decide whether the Lord President abrogating a good deal of the
these purchases should be made ?---The difficulty power which is given him by law. If any
that occurs to me is this : you have, both at the serious difficulty were to arise between the Lord
British Museum and at the National Gallery, a President and the Vice President, ind the Vice
number of trustees, who are gentlemen of posi- President chose to make himself disagreeable, I
tion and supposed to be connoisseurs; if you at am pretty confident that he could get his own
all put them under the supervision of a perma- way, because he could always threaten to resign.
nent official you might not get the same class of As he knows a good deal more about educational
men to act.
questions than the Lord President, the chances
812. I was not speaking so much of the per- are that he would be right in the point in dif-
manent official who only advises, but of the ference; and if he was to resign, the Govern-
Minister; there is no one at present between these ment would not only have to face any unpopu-
highly accomplished gentlemen who are trustees, larity which his resignation would entail, but
and the Treasury, who are supposed to know they would, besides, have to find somebody who
nothing about it?-I think, if you could make would accept a position of complete subordi-
whoever was the head of the Education Depart- nation at the Education Department, to the
ment ex officio a member of these bodies, that Lord President, and that it would be very
would give liim personal cognisance of what was difficult for them to do, I think; and therefore,
going on.
it seems to me putting a distinguished political
813. And that he should defend the body on oficer in a wrong position, to give him this
any question which arose in Parliament?-I nominal legal supremacy over another official
think that would be almost the simplest way. whose salary is equal to his own, and who in
As we know art connoisseurs are very sus- many ways is in a position of equality with him.
ceptible; there is, moreover, a great deal of For instance, the official correspondence is not,
difference of opinion on questions of art, and they as that conducted in other departments is, in the
would not at all like being put under the super- name of the head of the Department; it is in
vision of any permanent official, or having any the name of “my Lords." The terın “my
artist, however eminent, delegated to report upon Lords,” according to the interpretation clause
their opinion.
of the Education Act, means the Lord President
814. But from the nature of the official con- and the Vice President, and therefore there is an
ditions of work, would it not be better that mat- implied equality in the correspondence which
ters of that kind should be dealt with in Parlia- does not legally exist. Then again, as far as I
ment by the Education and Art Department than know, there is no other instance where a subor-
by the Treasury ?-I think so, undoubtedly; dinate who has to discharge only the duties of
and I think you have at South Kensington what one branch of the Department, is paid a salary
you need; with a very little alteration you might equal to that which is superior, who has to dis-
utilise some of the officials there for that pur- charge other duties, receives. All these facts
pose.
seem to me to show that if the attention of
815. I think I have carried you now through Parliament is directed to the subject, it ought to
all the branches of the work of the Education be with the intention of making the man who
Department; now let me ask you this : do you · does the work, and who is looked upon by the
think that the present arrangement as to the nation as responsible for education, the real
Ministry, if I may say so, of Education, the legal head of the Department. My idea is that
division between the Lord President and the we should act in this instance as we have done
Vice President, is a good satisfactory working in the case of the Board of Trade and the Local
arrangement?-No; I think it is a most unsatis- Government Board, and make the Vice President
factory arrangement.
President of the Education Department. I dare
816. Would you kindly tell us what you say the Committee are aware that although he
would substitute for it?-For four years before goes by the name of Vice President of the
I was Vice President, I was Under Secretary Council, his legal designation is Vice President
for India, and I was then in a position of more of the Committee of Council upon Education.
or less complete subordination. Of course, if I He has nothing to do with duties outside the
gave any answer in the House of Commons, I Education Department. My idea is that if he
gave it in the usual official language, in the name was made head of the Education Department,
of the Secretary of State, and he was respon- he would be able to discharge his duties without
sible for what I said. But when you go to the any additional Parliamentary assistance. It is
Education Department as Vice President, you not a heavy Department; all the duties are
are not altogether subordinate, and the public within a well-defined scope. If that was done,
hold you responsible, and the House of Commons, and the change worked well, then of course it
too, hold you responsible for what goes on in the would be possible to add to his duties by giving
Education Department. For instance, if the hiin extra work in relation to endowed schools,
Vice President for a month were to preface every public schools, and the various learned and
answer by saying, “ I am directed by the Lord artistic bodies, to which you have alluded.
President to inform the House." I believe that at 817. You would constitute a Department
similar
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION
47
18 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. Lord GEORGE HAMILTON, M.P.
[Continued.
2
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
similar practically to the Board of Trade ? - the Department in the House of Lords; but I
Yes.
think it would require some one of rather a
818. Still, in the main, connected with the higher position than a Lord-in-Waiting to repre-
Privy Council ?-Yes.
sent the Education Department there unless he
.819. You would not divorce the Minister happened to be a man of exceptional capacity.
altogether from the Privy Council, but he should 825. You would have one of the members of
be the President of the Committee of Council for the Committee of Council to be the representa-
Education just as the President of the Board of tive in the very rare cases of educational
Trade is, according to the old term, the President questions that come up in the House of Lords ? -
of the Committee of Council for Trade and That was my idea.
Plantations ?-Yes.
826. Without the necessity of having a regular
820. And the head of the Education Depart- Under Secretary there, just as is the case in the
ment would have, probably, a Parliamentary Board of Trade ?-Certainly; at the commence-
Secretary, who would be a Peer if the head of ment of the alteration I would suggest that, but
the Department was in the House of Commons, I do not think that at present there is enough
or who would be in the House of Commons if the work for two Parliamentary officials.
head were a Peer; is that your idea ?- There is 827. Do you contemplate, with entire equani-
really not sufficient work for two Parliamentary mity, the possibility of the Education Minister
officials at the Education Department at pre- not being in the Cabinet ?-The immense mass of
sent.
business done at the Education Department is in
821. Who would take charge of educational interpreting the Education Acts and administer-
questions that might crop up in the House of ing the Code; it is only once or twice in a
Lords, somebody outside ?--There are only very decade that any great educational policy is in-
few of them. My idea was to retain the Council volved. If the head of the Education Depart-
on Education; it is too large a body now; but I ment was not in the Cabinet, I thought that the
think there is a great deal of advantage in asso- Council on Education would be a means of in-
ciating with the head of the Education Depart forming the Cabinet fully on questions of that
ment a certain number of Ministers who have a character; but, without any disrespect to the
personal knowledge of the relations of education Lord President, my own view is that if I were
in a somewhat different sphere from that which at the Education Department I would rather
the Vice President or the President of the Edu- not be represented in the Cabinet if it was
cation Department would be familiar with. For necessary to be represented there by the Lord
instance, the Home Secretary has all the indus- President. .
trial schools under him ; the President of the 828. You do not think that the public who
Local Government Board has the union schools have always seen one Education Minister in the
under hiin; and then again the Chancellor of the Cabinet, and in Mr. Forster's time two, would
Exchequer's opinion is most important, as he has be disappointed if it were not an invariable rule
to provide the money which any extension of the that the Department should be represented in
rules regulating the Code would entail. And the Cabinet?-I do not think so. The public
there would be another advantage, I think, in will insist on considering the Vice President as
maintainiug the Council, assuming that the head the Education Minister. For instance, the
of the Education Department was not in the Education Acts of 1870 and 1876 go by the names
Cabinet; he would summon the Council on Edu- of Forster Act and Sandon Act; I have never
cation to consult with him as regards any big heard the name of the Lord President, who
measure that he proposed to bring in; they would happened to be in office at the time associated
then get personally cognisant of it; they would with either of those Acts.
practically form a committee to consider it; and
if they approved of it, the policy of the Education
Mr. Jumes Campbell.
Department would be most efficiently represented 829. As to Irish Education, that is entirely
in the Cabinet by those members of the Council outside of the cognisance of the Education
on Education who were in the Cabinet,
Department at present?- Entirely.
822. But have we not had lately some rather 830. And I presume you agree with others in
difficult questions about schools raised in the thinking that it is best managed by the Irish
House of Lords which required detailed ex- Commissioners; that it would be impossible to
planation ; having that in view, do you think it take it out of their hands ?-I think it certainly
would be possible to do without a representative would be dangerous.
of the Department in the House of Lords ?-I 831. Does it occur to you that any relation
think the only questions that are raised there are might be established between the Ministry of
questions in reference to endowed schools.
Education in this country and the management
823. Not any in reference to primary schools? of education in Dublin ?-In regard to primary
-Yes, there were one or two such questions education, do you mean?
raised by Lord Norton, I think.
832. Yes ?-I think it would be attended with
824. In that case would you have the Depart- very considerable risk; it would be very unlikely
ment represented, as some of the public Depart that you would get any politician, who was
ments are in the House of Lords, by a gentleman thoroughly acquainted both with the English,
not connected with the Cabinet, but belonging the Scotch, and the Irish systems. Besides that,
to the Household, for instance ? -I thought that there are difficulties in Ireland which do not
if the Lord President was a Member of the occur in England and Scotland ; and the Minister
Council on Education, and his duties were not who comes in contact or collision with Irish
very heavy he might be disposed to represent Members, does not, as a rule, find it very easy to
0.51.
F4
carry
unlikely
d the ted both politician,
48.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
18 March 1884.7
The Right Hon. Lord GEORGE HAMILTON, M.P.
[Continued.
Mr. James Campbell continued.
Viscount Emlyn-continued.
carry on the business of his Department; and I do you think that might be the case ? -No, I do
am afraid that if you amalgamated the control of not think it woulù. ,
English, Scotch, and Irish Education in one 8 42. Do you know of any reason why the
Department the tendency would be rather to Lord President should not be in the House of
appoint somebody who understood the Irish Commons now ?-I imagine that that is more
system, but did not understand the English and of a legal question, but I have always understood
Scotch systems.
that the Lord President has special personal re-
833. But, short of amalgamating and short of lations with the Sovereign, being present at all
interfering with the Irish system, do you not the Councils and so on, and there might be an
think there should be some relation established inconvenience, having regard to the excessive
between Irish education and the Education De- attendance which is now demanded of Members
partment of this country?- The difficulties are in this House, if the Minister who had officially
of such a different nature in Ireland from what to be in attendance on Her Majesty, were in the
they are in England and Scotland, that I do not House of Commons.
see that there would be any advantage as regards 843. I think you suggested that special in-
primary education.
spectors should be appointed to inspect certain
834. Do you not think that there is an anomaly endowed schools; have you considered whether
in the Education Department of this country the present inspectors of elementary schools
knowing nothing of Irish education ?-It may be would not be capable of taking charge of the
an anomaly, but then there are a great many inspection of endowed schools ? -I think, un-
others besides
doubtedly, they would; they have the capacity
unquestionably to inspect secondary schools. .
Chairman.
844. Do you think it is desirable to have an
835. To follow up the questions just put to entirely separate class of inspectors for endowed
you, if the Minister appointed under your plan schools ?-My idea rather was, that if you had
was a Roman Catholic, would there not be con- any inspection of such schools, it should only be
siderable difficulties in England and Scotland; when there was primâ facie reason to believe that
and if on the other hand he were a Protestant, the scheme was not working well, or that the
would there not be considerable difficulties in trustees or managers of the scheme were not
Ireland ?- That was the difficulty that occurred carrying it out.
to me; the religious difficulty occurs much more 845. And for that very reason would it not be
in Ireland than in England and Scotland. undesirable to start, only for an occasional use, a
special staff of inspectors ? — The inspectors of
Viscount Emlyn.
elementary education have their time pretty well
836. Apart from the inconvenience of the mapped out all the year round: they visit certain
position of Vice President, can you mention any schools at specified times of which they have
way in which the present system has done harm given due notice to the managers of those
to the public service ?--I think it entails a great schools, and I think there would be practical
deal of unnecessary trouble on the permanent inconvenience if you suddenly took them away
officials.
from those duties.
837. The dual control you mean?—They have 846. However, that is a minor consideration
frequently to explain things twice over, and are how the inspection is carried out; but you are of
running backwards and forwards in an unne- opinion that an inspection of endowed schools
cessary way.
should be carried out ?- It is the only means by
838, But as far as the public outside the De- which Parliament can be satisfied that the con-
partment is concerned, can you mention any evils ditions which they have laid down for the im-
that have arisen out of the system ?-No, I can- provement of endowed schools are being carried
not say that I am aware that any serious evil has out.
arisen.
847. I understood you to say that you were
839. Then it is more a departmental question not sure that you would extend that system to
than a public question as to the convenience of the public schools ?-No, unless there was very
the Department ?-I can see no advantage in strong reason given for it, I should be averse to
maintaining such an anomaly. If I thought inspecting great public schools.
there was any advantage in it, I should consider 848. Is there not à difficulty in deciding
it only right that the Vice President should put where you are to draw the line, and say what
up with a not very pleasant position.
schools are to be inspected and what are not, if
840. It was suggested to us by another wit- you once move away from the rule that you will
iness that the Department gained considerably inspect these schools that receive Government
under the present system, in having two strong grants ?-I should imagine you would only in-
men in the Department, one representing the spect those schools which come under the En-
Department in each House of Parliament; do dowed Schools Act of 1869.
you think that there is anything in that argu- 849. And have been dealt with since that
ment?“I think it may give somewhat of in- tiine?- and have been dealt with since that
portance to the Department, but I do not think time ; or which would come within the category
that there is much practical advantage in it. of schools which come within the provisions of
841. I think it was suggested by Sir Francis that Act.
Sandford, that he was afraid if the proposed 850. Even though they have not been dealt
alteration were made, by having merely an with up to this time?-I am not aware whether
Under Secretary instead of a Vice President, the there are any schools which were not dealt with
Department would lose in weight and strength; by that scheme, which it would be expedient to
deal
NI
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
49.
18 March 1884.]
The Right Hon. Lord GEORGE HAMILTON, M.P.
[Continued.
Viscount Emlyn-continued.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone-continued.
· deal with ; in fact I could not very well answer safe index as to the educational state of a par-
that question.
ticular school ?-I think they are a fair index.
Now-a-days the great majority of young gentle-
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
men who want to go into the Civil Service,
- 851. Supposing that the Vice President was and those who are going into industrial or com-
made President of the Council of Education, mercial pursuits, have generally to pass some test
as you have suggested, would you propose that examination, and I think that there is a strong
he should have all the patronage in his hands ? disposition on the part of parents only to send
Yes, I think that would go with it, as a matter their children to a school which will give them
of course.
the necessary education.
852. Then do not you think that supposing he
855. Take Eton; about 15 years ago the num-
was made the responsible Minister in the House of
bers of Eton exceeded the ordinary high-water
Commons, and that he had not a seat in the Cabinet,
mark, but since that time the numbers have
he would be at a disadvantage in respect to
steadily declined, till within a recent period,
patronage, compared to the position of the Lord
and yet its educational status has emphatically
President at the present time?-He would occupy
risen?-I was not aware of that. Eton, I think,
much the same position as the President of the
is in a somewhat exceptional position, and so are
Board of Trade or of the Local Government
some of the other schools; very frequently
Board; they are not necessarily members of the
people send their sons to a school of that kind
Cabinet, and I should imagine that they had more
which they think is a fashionable school, or
which they have some predilection for; but I was
patronage than the President of the Council.
rather talking of the schools which are attended
853. You told us, I think, in regard to the by those who must necessarily work for their
public schools, that the numbers were generally a livelihood afterwards; and I think the numbers
fair index of the state of the schools ? –Yes. attending such a school are, as a rule, a test of
854. Do you think that they are altogether a the efficiency of the school.
0.51.
..5Q -
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
Tuesday, 25th March 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Herbert.
Sir John Lubbock...
Viscount Lymington.
Mr. Pell.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Raikes.
MR. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, IN THE CHAIR.
Sir PATRICK JOSEPH KEENAN, K.C.M.G., C.B., called in; and Examined.
national to app comme per
Buty missions chequer
Chairman.
Chairman-continued.
.856. You are the Resident Commissioner of national system of education, the Government
National Education in Ireland ?-I am. . resolved to appoint an independent and respon-
· 857. Will you give the Committee some sible Board of Commissioners. To these com
general idea as to the practice of Parliament in missioners, who were persons of distinguished
granting Votes for public education in Ireland ? position, was given absolute control over the
-For a century and a half, without a break, the funds annually voted by Parliament for the
Irish Parliament first, and then the Imperial support of national education. They were to
Parliament, have been making annual grants in grant aid towards the erection of schools, to
aid of public education in Ireland. The general appoint inspectors and an administrative staff, to
system during the first hundred years of the award gratuities to teachers, to establish a model
period was to entrust to privately-constituted and training school, and to edit and publish
societies the unrestricted and unchecked adminis- suitable school books. In a word, the Commis-
tration of the Parliamentary Grants. To sioners were to constitute the official, the
various societies, from 1733 to the time of the Governmental Department of Irish National
establishment of the national system in 1831, Education. From 1831 to 1849, the votes were
Parliamentary Grants of upwards of three made directly to the Lord Lieutenant for the
millions were thus made. During the whole of advancement of education. From year to year
this long period grants were given to what were during these 18 years, the Commissioners, to
called the Protestant Charter Schools, and meet their expenditure, drew upon the fund so
during portions of the period to various voted to His Excellency. But since 1849 the
other proselytising scholastic institutions, whilst moneys required by the Commissioners have
to the non-proselytising schools of the Kildare come to them from Her Majesty's Exchequer
Place Society, grants were made from the year through the Paymaster General, within the limits
1814 to 1832. The grant for 1830, the year of the Parliamentary Vote for primary educa-
before the establishment of the national system, tion.
was 30,0001. Contemporaneously with the grants 858. Would you now give us an outline of the
to the Charter, and other proselytising societies, general extent, scope, and operations of the
and the grants to the non-proselytising Kildare national system ?-In the first place there are
Place Society Schools, there was a fund estab- 8,046. national schools, 2,230 of which were built
lished in 1819, which lasted until 1830, called by aid from the Board, and are called vested
the Lord Lieutenant's Fund, annually voted by schools, and 5,816 built without any contribution
Parliament, and in some years amounting to from the Board, and called non-vested schools.
10,000 1., which was administered by the The grant in aid of the erection of a school is
Government, aided by an advising board of three limited to two-thirds of the cost, on a scale and
unpaid members, and chiefly devoted to the conditions settled between the Board of National
erection of schools. The grants from this fund Education and the Board of Works, the latter
were not necessarily made to Protestants schools, Board having to carry out the building transac-
but, except in a few cases, were, as a matter of tions, and to provide in their estimates the neces-
fact, made to no other schools. All these sary funds. Every national school has a patron
societies and organisations were failures; failures or manager who, subject to the approval of the
in not attracting the masses of the people to Board as to qualifications and character, has the
their schools, and in not satisfying the popular power of appointing the teachers, and also, sub-
demand for impartial education. Convinced ject to certain provisions, the power of dismissing
that no private society,' even such a society as them. The manager transacts all the business
the Kildare Place Society, deriving a part, how- correspondence with the Board. There are 7,497
ever small, of their annual income from private principal teachers, and 3,035 assistant teachers,
sources, and only made the channel of the making a total of 10,532 in the teaching staff.
munificence of the Legislature, without being Four-fifths of their income come from the Parlia-
subject to any direct responsibility, could mentary Grant; the remaining fifth comes from
adequately and satisfactorily administer a great the school pence of the pupils, and local sub-
scriptions.
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND. ART (ADMINISTRATION).;
51
25. March 1884.]
Sir P. J. KEENAN, K.C.M.G., C.B.
[Continued.
salaries took organising them. The total 10,000
Chairman--continued. .
Chairman-continued.
scriptions. But the portion of the teachers' of having in different parts of the country schools
income which is derived from the Parliamentary which would serve as models for teachers and
Grant is paid on a composite principle ; about managers to imitate as to school fittings and ap-
three-fourths in fixed classed salaries, and the pliances, systems of organisation and methods of
remaining fourth in results' fees, determined by teaching, and in which, at the same time, young
the ascertained proficiency of the pupils. The persons might pass the preliminary steps of train-
fixed class salaries, which range for masters from ing, the Coinmissioners established" what are
35 l. to 701., and for mistresses from 27 1. 10 s. called “model schools." These schools are sup-
to 58 l. a year, are paid by the Board quarterly on ported and exclusively managed by the Commis-
a return made by the manager, in which he sets sioners themselves. There are 30 of them
forth the average attendance of the pupils, the throughout the country, having an average at-
character of the teachers, and other details of im- tendance of 8,692, with about 200 resident pupil
portance requisite for the information of the teachers, who are educated and boarded gra-
Board to warrant the award of salary. The tuitously. The cost of these schools, exclusive
portion of the teacher's income dependent of maintenance by the Board of Works, is 33,6187.
upon “results” is paid annually, as soon as The teacherships of the model schools are de-
possible after the holding of the results' ex- termined by competition. Before I leave the
amination by the inspector. But besides the “schools,” I had better say a word as to Sub.
teachers, there is a staff of about 6,000 moni- Head G. of our Votes which relates to books
tors, whose term of training is five years, and and school apparatus. When the national
who are paid salaries by the Board ranging from system was established in 1831, the books
51. to 181., according to the year of their service. usually available for school use were of the
These salaries also are paid quarterly, simul worst possible description, largely immoral in
taneously with the salaries of the teachers. their tone, and worthless in their didactic
Under the Sub-Head of the Vote which I am arrangements. The Commissioners found them-
now particularly describing, there are also paid selves constrained to drive these books from the
salaries to work mistresses, good service salaries, schools, and to do so had themselves to edit and
salaries to organising teachers, premiums, and publish a series which they sold at the lowest
retiring gratuities to teachers. The total charge possible prices to the managers and teachers of
of the Sub-Head is 580,264 l., of which 50,000l. schools. The use of these books was not com-
must be placed to the account of the monitors. pulsory, but their merits and their prices soon
I have just observed that “retiring gratuities” banishedall other primary school-books out of the
are awarded to teachers. But I should explain market. Indeed their merits commanded such a
that by an Act of Parliament passed in 1879 a footing for them that they were very largely
sum of 1,300,000 1. of the Irish Church surplus used for many years in England and the British
was appropriated to provide pensions and gra- colonies. They are produced by hundreds of
tuities for retiring teachers, the teachers them- thousands; sold at cost price; and sent carriage
selves, by stoppages from their salaries, subscrib- free from the Education Office in Dublin to
ing towards the pension fund. This Act is in stations and places within easy distances of most
full operation, and all teachers appointed since of the schools. This department of the system,
it was passed are obliged to join the fund; but although appearing in the Vote to represent an
the teachers appointed before 1879 need not join expenditure of 34,650 l., at present involves only
it, and are provided for by an old system of gra- a net expenditure of 4,650 b., some of which is
tuities from the Parliamentary Vote. Most of spent in “ free grants” of requisites to new
the teachers, however, have joined the new schools. Before I dismiss the question of the
scheme. The natural source of expense to refer schools, I must refer to a class of schools in
to next, in connection with the staff of teachers, which the Commissioners take a deep interest,
is their training. Unfortunately, the question of and which are provided for under Sub-Head F.
the training of teachers was, in Ireland, a con- of our Vote. I need scarcely stop, even for a
troversial one. The Board had long ago esta- moment, to explain their motives for doing so.
Wished and directly supported a training college I refer to agricultural schools. The efforts of the
for masters and another for mistresses in Dublin. Commissioners in this direction date so far back
The cost of these two colleges was about 7,5001. as 1837. This branch of our operations has, how-
a year. There were some who thought that ever, hadits vicissitudes. Popular sentiment, espe-
these colleges were ample for the wants of the cially over here in England, was opposed to the
country, although 66 per cent. of the teaching carrying on of model farrus on a large scale at the
staff were untrained; and there were others who sole cost of the Government. At one time we had
objected to the principle of mixed education and 20 of these farms; now we have only two; but
mixed domestic life upon which these colleges subject to our inspection, and aided by small
were conducted. The question happily was grants which we award to them, we have about 70
settied last year at the suggestion of the Irish agricultural schools to which farios are attached,
Government by the adoption of the English and which are under local management, Under
system, as supplementary to the two state strict economical arrangements the Department
Colleges; and already under private management is now making considerable headway. Within
are two very efficient colleges in Dublin, one for the last few years special attention has been paid
masters and another for mistresses. The expense to dairy farming, and classes of young women
for “ training” in the future will, therefore, be a have been under instruction in the establishments
growing and a considerable item. As to a large at Cork and Glasnevin, to qualify them to be-
extent connected with the subject of the training come good butter makers and managers of
of teachers, I must now observe that with a view dairies. In the ordinary rural national schools,
0.51.
G 2
instruction
are colleges wehe 66 per centere were
'
i
i
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
52
Pb
25 March 1884.7
Sir P. J. KEENAN, K.C.M.G., C.B.
[Continued.
internally the Boperations and ethiny examined
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
instruction in agriculture is obligatory for boys in accordance with the view of the Resident Com-
in the fourth and the higher classes. In the missioner. The Resident Commissioner, the only
year 1882, 21,135 boys passed in this subject, paid member of the Board, presides at the per-
and in doing so earned results' fees for their manent sub-committees, sees that all the decisions
teachers.
of these committees are submitted to the Board,
.859. Would you now describe the measures deals with cases, daily arising, involving important
which have been adopted for the Government, action whether in connection with matters of
and the transaction of the business in this great finance, the Audit Office, the general control and ,
organisation ? -Externally the inspectors, and operations of the official staft, proceedings upon
internally the Board and the office in Dublin, inpectors' reports, correspondence with managers,
control all the operations and fortunes of the the general public, and so on. There are a senior
system. Each school has to be fully examined and a junior secretary, who in turn attend the
for results by an inspector once a year, and at Board and register and carry out its decisions ;
other times, visits of a secondary or incidental and there is also a financial assistant secretary,
character are paid to it. Inspections upon appli: who is responsible for tbe enormously vast and
cations for grants to new schools and for various complicated financial arrangements of the system.
other important purposes, are also made from The executive officers of' next importance are the
time to time. The country is divided into 63 two chiefs of inspection, officers who habitually
school districts, and each district has an inspector are recruited from the ranks of the head inspectors.
in charge of it. Then for every 10, or in some The chiefs of inspection deal with the reports of
cases 11 districts, there is a head inspector, who the inspectors and the multitudinous details of
supervises the action of the district inspectors, action arising from those reports, settling and
presides at important inquiries, guides the deciding such as are in consimili cusu, and sub-
examinations for the classification of teachers, mitting all extraordinary and serious cases to
and sees that a common and just standard of the consideration of the Resident Commissioner.
examination of the pupils is observed by the The staff of elerks consists of 33 establishment
district inspectors. The institution of head clerks, 35 clerks of Lower Division, and about
inspectors dates so far back as 1846. I believe 40 writers. The cost of the official establish-
that something analogous, but much less com- ment is 25,239 1.
prehensive, has been introduced in recent years 860. Can you hand in a tabular statement
into the English system. The inspectors are showing, at different intervals, the population of
appointed by a competitive examination, con- Ireland, and the development of the national
ducted by the Civil Service Commissioners, of system since its establishment?-Yes (hunding in
candidates nominated by the Board, usually a Statement).
from three to six or seven tor" each Vacancy. 861. Will you now state the relations which
The programme of examination is of an ex- subsist between the Commissioners of National
tensive character, including English literature,
Education and the Government, and the nature
the mathematical and physical sciences, logic,
of the Ministerial responsibility in connection
and political economy, history, modern and
with your votes - The consent of the Lord Lieu-
· ancient languages, the science of education, &c.
tenant is, by a rule in the Code of the Commis-
The plan of inspectors' assistants has also recently
sioners, necessary, before any change of a
been tried. At present there are six officers of
fundamental rule can be made. Until 1849, as I
this class. They also are appointed by com-
have already stated, the annual Vote of Parlia-
petitive examination. The cost of the inspection
ment was niade to the Lord Lieutenunt to enable
staff is 40,166 1. a year. Then as to the depart-
him to issue money for the advancement
mental or internal administration, the Board
of education, and since 1849 the annount re-
which under the Royal Charter consists of 20
quired by the Commissioners for the maintenance
members, half Protestant and half Catholic, deals
of the national system has been voted directly
with all cases of exceptional importance, or of a
through Her Majesty's Exchequer, and paid by
novel character, or of any special difficulty. The
Board meets once a week for eight months, and
the Paymaster General. But to the Lord
Lieutenant the annual estimates of the Commis-
once a fortnight for four months of the year.
siuners continue to be furnished and submitted
The meetings are held on Tuesdays, and the
for approval before transmission to the Lord of
agenda paper is sent out on the previous Friday.
the Treasury. And even to the smallest new
The exercise of patronage is so slight a part of
the functions of the Board, that it may hardly be
item of expense involved in the administration
noticed. The inspectors are appointed by com-
of the system, his consent is necessary as a
petitive examination; the clerks, of whom there
step preliminary to its consideration by the
is a large staff, are supplied by the Civil Service
Treasury. This I must, however, observe was
Commissioners; and even the teachers of the
not always the case, for under the terms of
model schools, as I have already said, are
the letter of Mr. Stanley (afterwards Lord
appointed by competitive examination. The
Derby) constituting the Board, it was ex-
only functions of patronage exercised by plicitly laid down that the Board should be
the Board have relation to the promo-
entrusted with the absolute control over the
tion of an inspector to a head inspectorship,
funds which might be annuully voted by Parlia-
or of a head inspector to the post of chief of in-
ment. This unlimited authority and power were
spection, or of a clerk to some staff position; all at first construed by the Board into a practical
very rare events; and in these cases, whilst every independence upon financial affairs, whether in
individual member of the Board has an equal relation to the Lord Lieutenant or the Treasury,
voice and vote with the Resident Commissioner, and even largely to the jurisdiction of the
the decision has almost invariably happened to be Commissioners of Audit. The Board determined
upon
: :
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
25 March 1884.7
Sir P. J. KEENAN, K.C.M.G., C.B.
[ Continued.
Chairman--continued.
Chairman--continued.
upon the officers they should appoint, and the Then under the Duke of Abercorn's Government,
remuneration they should award to them. The the highly important principle was established
Treasury itself, in a Minute of the 12th Septem- that boards of guardians might levy a rate in aid
ber 1838, acknowledged a large measure of dis- of the incomes of teachers, and the equally im-
cretion on the part of the Commissioners. But portant principle was carried in Parliament that
the whole public service, I need hardly observe, loans, on easy terms, might be made from the
was until not very long ago in an unsettled con- Parliamentary Vote for the erection of teachers'
dition as to principles of finance and departmental residences. Then in the Duke of Marlborough's
the Treasury laid down fixed principles, have already adverted was carried, for the provi-
and the Irish Government an absolute re- sion of pensions to teachers, by the appropriation of
quirement of submission to its financial 1,300,000 l. from the funds of the Irish Church
control, and the Audit Office rigid views of surplus. The present Government of Lord
audit, the Commissioners of National Education, Spencer, as I have already observed, has settled
in deference to the decisions of all these autho- the great question of the endowment of training
rities, and to the exigencies of the public service, colleges under local management, a question of
relinquished those plenary powers originally con vaster import than any that has been under con-
ferred upon them, and, in all projected financial sideration since the establishment of the national
measures, are now, and have been for some system in 1831. The Chief Secretary, on behalf of
years, completely, as I have said, subject to the the Lord Lieutenant, is the responsible agent in
Lord Lieutenant's fiat, and in turn, to the Parliament for all such measures, as well as for
absolute control of the Treasury, as well as to the carrying of the votes to sustain them. I
the scrutinising inquisitions of the Audit Depart- think, therefore, that I may reasonably urge the
ment. Our financial operations may, therefore, view that inasmuch as the estimates for the
be described, independently of the Audit Depart- support of national education are, in the first
ment, as based, firstly, upon the responsibility of instance, submitted to the Lord Lieutenant, and
the Board; secondly, upon the responsibility of dependent upon his approval ; that as those
the Lord Lieutenant; and thirdly, upon the re estimates are then sent on, when approved by
sponsibility of the Treasury. Our Parliamen- His Excellency, to the Treasury for sanction ;
tary responsibility is borne by the Chief Secre- that, as they have afterwards to be proposed and
tary acting for the Lord Lieutenant, who defended in Parliament by the Chief Secretary ;
sustains in Parliament those Estimates which that as the policy of the system of Irish national
have been already considered and approved by cducation is so largely shaped by the suggestions
the Lord Lieutenant and himself, and afterwards and action of the Irish Government, I think, as
sanctioned by the Treasury. I quite admit it I say, I may reasonably urge that the Ministerial
would be hard to attach responsibility to the Irish responsibility for the Vote of Irish National
Government, through the Chief Secretary, for the Education, whilst not inconsistent with the in-
finances of the srstem if they had nothing to say
dependence of the Board as an administrative
to its policy. This 'policy, as a matter of fact, is body, is large and adequate in the public in-
the growth of a half a century, the outcome terests. Indeed, Ministerial responsibility in
of the patient investigation and action of the our affairs is not limited to the action of the
Board, of the views of successive Governments, Irish Government. The Cabinet itself, when
and of an unswerving principle maintained by all
new and important measures are proposed,
the Parliaments that have sat since 1831,
undertakes its own share in the deliberations and
the responsibilities. When the Board in 1872
Sir Lyon Playfuir.
proposed to increase the pay of the Irish
862. What is "the unswerving principle”? – National teachers by so large an amount, at
The principle of impartial education.
once, as 100,000 1., a Committee of the Cabinet,
863. Of protecting the religion of the children, including the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of
you mean?~Of protecting the conscience of every the Exchequer, the Chief Secretary for Ireland,
child who becomes a pupil of a national school. and all the members of the Cabinet who had
ever served in Ireland, met to consider the pro-
Chairman.
posal and hear a statement from me in sustain-
864. Impartial, as between the denominations ? ment of it.
-Impartial, as between the denominations ; 865. Would you not think it desirable that
protecting the conscience of every child in a the Chief Secretary, discharging the functions
public school. In its paramount characteristics you have described, should be, ex-officio, a member
this policy has remained unaltered ; but in many of the Board of National Education ?- The
most important respects, one Government after Chief Secretary's absence from Ireland during
another has suggested to the Board the adoption the sitting of Parliament and his preoccupations
of various important changes in it. Not to travel in the Recess, would, I fear, leave him few op-
back very far I may refer to the policy of Lord portunities of attending our meetings. It would
Spencer's first Government in instituting the undoubtedly be a great advantage to the Board
principle, in a modified form, of payment by if he were one of its members, and able to
results; also to the principle that teachers are attend even occasionally. His presence would
not removable by school managers without, at create a link between the Commissioners and the
least, a three months'notice; also to the principle Government, which could not fail to be of great
that a manager himself, is not removable unless service whenever any important question was
after a public inquiry into his case as affecting under consideration. The appointment might
tlie educational interests of the school district. involve some re-adjustment of our Charter.
0.51.
G 3
Lord
nie
die
.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
"
25 March 1884.]
Sir P. J. KEENAN, K.C.M.G., C.B.
[Continued.
-
held by the mempeland ?-Tileressed are unit
0868. Bertained in world, of learnind so farol
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
Lord Morpeth, when Chief Secretary, had a inspectors, and the district inspectors. Any other
seat at the Board, but it was before the Commis- arrangement would shake the confidence of the
sioners obtained a Royal Charter. There is, Irish public, If the system were administered
however, another side to this question. The from Whitehall, on English ideas, no recognition
interest of the Government and the public must of the equality principle, consistently with the
be considered; and from this point of view, it English practice, could be expected, Lastly,
might appear that the Government would be the history of the Irish National Board of Edu-
more independent to control the action of the cation justifies in my opinion a protest against
Board, if the Chief Secretary were not one of its its extinction.
members.
867. Upon the last point, is it your opinion
866. Have you ever taken into consideration that the views you have expressed are univer-
the question, which has been suggested in certain sably held in Ireland ?— They are universally
quarters, of placing the Irish national system of held by the members of the Board, and so far as
education under the direction of the English I have had any opportunity of learning the sen-
Education Department?-From time to time I timents of the outer world, I should say univer-
have heard such a proposal mooted, but I most sally entertained in the outer world also.
emphatically disapprove of it: First, because 868. Both by Protestants and by Roman
public sentiment in Ireland would resist such a Catholics ?-Both by Protestants and hy Roman
denationalising of a great and successful Irish Catholics.
institution. Secondly, because it would not be 869. And especially by the Roman Catholic
in the interests of education, by any process of ecclesiastics? --I can speak, at all events, for
assimilation with the English system, to control one most influential Irish Catholic ecclesiastic,
or limit the independent thought and action in the most exalted in the body, and he is strongly
educational matters which has hitherto distin- opposed to any such change. Then as to Pro-
guished the Irish National system, as manifested testant ecclesiastics, this very morning I met one
by its extension to several of the Colonies and of the leading professors and most eminent
success at home. Thirdly, because financially scholars of Trinity College, the Rev. Dr. Haugh-
the application of the English system to Ireland ton, who had heard that I had just come over
would be disastrous to Irish education. In here, and that this question was on the topis, and
England three-fifths of the income of the teacher he earnestly invoked me to speak, not only on
is provided locally; in Ireland only one-fifth. behalf of the National Board, but for all con-
Impose upon Ireland the additional two-fifths or cerned in Irish education.
anything approaching it, and you at once come 870. The national system has, in fact, effectu-
to a dead-lock. In Ireland the teacher is recog- ally taken root in Ireland ?-It permeates every
nised and paid individually by the Board. În part of the country. There is not a parish in
England the personalty of the teacher is prac Ireland that has not a national school with its
tically ignored by the Education Department manager and its officers.
In England there is a very limited system of 871. And any control by a department in
pensions for teachers; in Ireland a very large London would be disastrous to it, in your
one, to which I have already adverted. In Eng- opinion ?-I think it would be exceedingly dis-
land you now give nu building grants for the astrous. The little that has been done in that
erection of schools. In Ireland such grants are centralising dirction has produced very con-
made, and must continue to be made, because in siderable dissatisfaction in Ireland. I refer to
addition to hundreds of schools which will be the operations of the Science and Art Depart-
wanted when we get compulsory education, hun- ment in Dublin.
dreds upon hundreds are even now wanted to re- 872. You think that the control over those
place existing bad and unsuitable buildings. The institutions by the Education Department here
English idea as to building grants would therefore is very questionable ?-I think it is very ques-
be absolutely ruinous. In short, the Irish and the tionable.
English systems are founded on such totally 873. Is it not the fact that the religious con-
different financial principles, that their amalga troversies in connection with the National Board
mation would appear to me to be quite im have either disappeared or been minimised of late
possible. Fourtbly, because of the religious diffi years ?-Practically they have disappeared since
culty which would immediately crop up in refe- the disestablishment of the Protestant Church.
rence to the administration of the Irish schools. The Church Education Society, which cham-
Under the provisions of the Supplemental Char- pioned the old ideas as to proselytising educa-
ter of 1861, the Board is constituted of 10 Pro- tion, has virtually ceased te exist. On the
testants and 10 Catholics. If the system were Catholic side there is hardly a parish priest in
to be administered by the English Education Ireland who is not a manager of a school. No
Department, there would necessarily be a com- doubt the Catholic authorities murmur to some
plete subversion of all this. There might not extent, because they have not got as many liber-
be a single Catholic in the governing body. ties as to the use of religious symbols and
This would produce the greatest discontent in religious books, and so on, as they would desire ;
Ireland. Not only is the Board organised on a but, taking it all in all, the national system Í
principle of equality, as to the number of Catho. may distinctly affirm is now universally accepted
lics and Protestants, but from the earliest period in the country.
in the history of the system, it has been arranged 874. Such “murmurs" are not unknown in
that the leading officers should be half Protes- this country?-I suppose not.
tants and half Catholics. This is the case with 875. However, there is a religious peace as to
the secretaries, the chiefs of inspection, the head primary education in Ireland which you would
Inensions forh. I have alle building such grantuse in
has to ple existih priest No
be
ON EDUCATION SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
55
25 March 1884.]
Sir P. J. KEENAN, K.C.M.G., C.B.
[Continued.
dersto, it is com educate thes, m
Chairman--continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
be very sorry to see disturbed ?-Exceedingly details connected with the working of the educa-
sorry.
tion system, that without exaggeration they might
have been designated Ministers of Education.
Sir Lyon Playfair..
884. At the present moment, I think you told
876. Your last remarks refer to an absorption us, your Board chiefly pays the teachers ?-Four-
of education in Ireland into the English system, fifths of the pay of the teachers comes from our
as education in Scotland has been absorbed into Board.
it? -Precisely.
885. Is it so much now; formerly it used to
877. For myself I have no such idea; but sup- be less than that, was it not ? ---It is four-fifths.
posing that the National Board continues in the 886. I suppose the manager very rarely contri-
management of national education as at pre- butes at all to the payment of the teachers, ex-
sent, do you see any very grave objection to the cept through the fees of the pupils ? -Not very
Votes being moved by a person who is responsible commonly; but the managers contribute their
for the whole education of the country, a Minister time and their advice and their presence in the
of Education ?-I do not conceive that any such schools; and that in itself is a very valuable local
Minister could possibly propose the Votes contribution. .
without having to deal with the administration 887. But, as regards money, the other fifth
of the system, and I think the existence of the comes either from certain small endowments
Board and his existence would be incompatible which you have, or from the fees of pupils ?
878. But at the present moment is the minis- Or the subscriptions of some of the managers. I
terial connection that you have now with the myself could count from 30 to 40 managers,
Chief Secretary incompatible with the existence whom I know personally, who contribute very
of the Board ?- Not the least in the world. freely and very well towards the schools ; but
879. And what would be the difference in the that is not general.
case of a Minister of Education for the United
888. Those 30 or 40 managers would be out
Kingdom moving the Votes with the responsibi- of
i of 8,000 ?-When I say that, I mean that I
lity of the National Board as being the execu-
could off-hand speak of that number of managers
tive?--As I understand, the function of a whom I am personally intimate with, who contri-
Minister of Education, it is not limited to merely
bute freely towards the schools. Of course there
appearing in the House of Commons to propose
are considerable numbers of others who do the
Votes, but it is to guide the education of the
same.
country; it is to check abuses where they exist,
889. But though the managers only contribute
and to suggest improvements where they might a very small amount, and the Government con-
be thought desirable. This Minister, to whom
tribute a very large amount, it is the manager
you advert, if he were to be the Minister of
that appoints, and it is the manager that dismisses
Education for Ireland, naturally should govern
the schoolmaster ? — The manager appoints and
our educational affairs in Ireland.
the manager dismisses; the Commissioners
880. If he were to act as Executive Minister
approve of the appointment, and for any infrac-
it would be so ; but I am assuming that the tion of rules or incompetency, or for any serious
necessities of Ireland, and the desires and wants irregularity, dismiss.
of Ireland, require this National Board to be the
890. You can dismiss, in spite of the manager ?
executive, and the connection of the Minister
-Yes.
with that executive would be more consultative,
891. And can the manager dismiss, in spite of
and he would be more immediately in contact
you ?-By giving a three months' notice, he
with the Board than the Chief Secretary is at
present ?-I now take it you do not mean to have
Chairman.
à Minister resident in Dublin, and having his
892. Is the rule the same in the vested and
office in Dublin ; you mean a Minister resident
non-vested schools in that respect ?-It is the
in London.
same in both,
881. I mean a Minister resident in London
with whom the National Board should consult ?
Sir Lyon Playfuir.
-Then the consultation should be by letter; he 893. Does the manager decide the kind of
might as well live 500 miles further off ; whereas subjects to be taught in a school?_There is
in the case of the Irish Government we have the an official programme of instruction for each
Lord Lieutenant at hand, and always I am bound class issued by the Board : the requirements of
to say quite ready to join in our deliberations, to our inspectors' examinations involve a steady ad-
give all necessary advice, and to assist us in
herence to that programme ; supplemental to it,
negotiations with the Government at head-quar- however, the managers may introduce any other
ters here.
subject that is approved of by the Board.
882. The person who is parliamentarily 894. Practically, I suppose the recent intro-
responsible for you at present is the Chief duction of payment by results has given you
Secretary ? ---Acting for the Lord Lieutenant. considerably more power in the schools than you
883. Does the Chief Secretary practically had before ?- Enormously greater, in the way of
come very much in contact with your Board ?- guiding the course of education and of securing
When he is in Ireland he comes, to a very large that the essential subjects shall be properly
extent, in contact with me as representing the taught.
Board. Some of the Chief Secretaries worked 895. Before that the Government paid the
so hard and so patiently, and so successfully in piper, but did not name the tunes ?- There was
the discussion and examination of even minute always a very careful supervision ; but I need
0.51.
G 4
hardly
can.
56
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
25 March 1884.]
Sir P. J. KEENAN, K.C.M.G., C.B.
[Continued.
Ore
tribal contributoreat Britare that,
in 18977; in 1880. in 1870, the per 1880, it
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair--continued.
hardly observe that an investigation of a school on 908. That is of pupils' fees ?-Of pupils' fees
the system of payment by results is a very dif- and local subscriptions.
ferent thing from the class of inspection which
909. But you are aware that, as education is
prevailed before. Would you allow me to state
a few facts in illustration of the effect of pay-
local contribution than that; that there is con-
ment by results in improving the quality of
tribution through subscriptions and through
the education? The year before the results
rates ?-I am perfectly well aware of that; but
system was introduced into Ireland the per-
in England the habit of the gentry was to sustain
centage of passes in the subject of reading was
the schuuls upon their estates; in Ireland, until
70.5, ten years afterwards, that is in 1880, it
recently, the gentry were, as a rule, hostile to the
was 91.4. In writing, in 1870, the percentage
National schools.
was 57.7; in 1880 it was 93.8. In arithmetic,
in 1870, the percentage was 54:4; in 1880, it rose
910. Do you believe that Ireland is now pre-
to 74.8. Similarly there were considerable im-
pared to submit to a local rate in support of
provements in all other branches; for instance,
schools ?-I cannot offer any opinion as to what
spelling or dictation, 61 per cent. in 1870, and
may happen, but I do not think it at all impro-
80.6 in 1880.
bable that some such effort may be made by the
896. And has not your proportion of Govern-
Government.
ment aid increased considerably with this pay- 911. Do not you think that such increased
ment by results ?-Very considerably.
support of the schools would add to the local
897. But before that, was it not still four-fifths interest ?---I think immensely.
that was paid by the Government? - When I say 912. Are your non-vested schools increasing
considerably, I mean considerably in the total in number or decreasing ?-They are increasing,
amount.
as are also the vested; in not very considerable
898. But not in proportion?-Not more than numbers.
a few per cent. in proportion, as the local aid has
913. But I mean are your non-vested schools
more than doubled since 1870.
899. You said that each parish has a national
becoming in any case vested ?- Very rarely ;
school now?- Every parish in Ireland; I do not
because unless a non-vested school is in perfectly
think I need hesitate in saying so.
good order, or that it will involve only a elight
900. But that if a compulsory system of edu-
expenditure to put it into good repair and good
cation is established, you will require many
condition, we decline to accept an assignment of
hundreds of schools more?-A considerable num-
it as a vested school.
ber more.
914. Are the non-vested schools generally in
901. And do you think it is just to look to the good order?—Generally in good order; but some
Imperial funds of the United Kingdom for that of them unfortunately are in bad order. Some of
large proportion of four-fifths, and not to look to them in remote parts of the country we had
the localities to aid in a greater degree than they to accept, although not very well equipped,
are doing now?-I have no doubt that the ques- rather than leave the people in a state of igno-
tion of requiring an increase in the local emolu- 'rance.
ments is at this moment under consideration by 915. Have you any means of enforcing that
the Government.
they should be put into good order under the
902. Was there not an Act passed a few years present system ?-. It is the constant effort of the
ago to enable unions to rate themselves for the office to bring about improvement in the condi-
aid of schools ?-Yes, in 1875.
tion of the houses. The only means we have is
903. And what was the result of that?—The to threaten the withdrawal or suspension of the
result was that about 73 out of 163 unions in
grant. Through the influence of the inspectors
the country voluntarily contributed, but the 73 we are also, from time to time, enabled to
have diminished to about 20 ; so that of the 163 effect a considerable improvement.
unions, only about 20 are now contributory.
916. I presume the object of the system of
904. The effect was that they did not come non-vested schools is to give influence to the de-
forward voluntarily in the way that was expected? nominational party that erects them?---There is
-Precisely so.
no difference practically as regards religious prac-
905. Do you not think that if there was an tices in the vested and in the non-vested schools.
ister of Education moving the The only difference is this : in the non-vested
Votes required by your Board, the country would
school the manager of the school may appoint
expect him to look a little to increased local
whatever religious instruction he chooses for the
contributions for education ?-Ido not know any school: no child is bound to receive that religious
Trish Government with which I have had any instruction, but no parent can confer the right of
official relation that did not look with quite as entrée to the school upon a clergyman or any
much anxiety to the same subject as could any other person to give religious instruction to the
Minister of Education.
children of his own denomination. In the case
906. But did they ever attain that?—They of a yested school the manager also has the
have always been making considerable efforts.
power of appointing his own religious instruc-
907. Without very much success ?- That con- tion; but in case there is a minority in the
tribution of a fifth is apparently a small one, but school who will not accept his religious instruc-
considering the impoverished circumstances of tion, the parents of that minority can bring their
most parts of Ireland, is not to be under- own clergyman into the school, and this clergy-
rated.
man has the right at a convenient hour of
giving
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
57
25 March 1884.7
Sir P. J. KEENAN, K.C.M.G., C.B.
[Continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued..
Sir John Lubbock-continued.
giving religious instruction to those children who address that I had occasion to deliver as Pre-
constitute the minority.
sident of the Education Section of the Social
917. But out of your 8,000 schools, 5,800 are Science Congress when it held its meeting in
non-vested ?--Yes.
Dublin; that is three years ago; and since then
918. Is there not any feeling now of confidence the matter has become a subject of serious atten-
in your national system of education under the tion on the part of great numbers of leading
National Board, which would gradually lead to the people ; and I think the country is preily ripe
absorption of these non-vested into vested schools ? now for action.
- As a question of public advantage I do not see 927. You spoke just now of the per-centages
any reason for desiring any very considerable ab- of passes in reading and writing and arithmetic;
sorption : for, as I have just observed, the only is the standard for Ireland about the same as for
practical difference between the two classes of England ?I think the standard for Ireland is
schools is the right that the parents have to bring higher; and that is a matter of some importance
in their own clergy to give religious instruction in estimating the relative marks. The standard
in the yested schools. The non-vested schools in reading must be pretty much the same; the
are largely" in parts of Ireland where there is standard in writing pretty much the same; but
really no minority for whom there might be a tie standard in arithmetic is, I think, higher
a want to bring in another clergyman.
than in England.
919. Your non-vested manager is almost 928. Would you explain why the standard
always a minister or priest of the church he be- inust be the same ?-I think the standard in
longs to, is he not? And similarly with the reading, that is the requirement that a child
vested schools.
-should read intelligently and pretty fluently, and
920. Are they chiefly priests there?-Chiefly understand what he is reading, must be the
priests or other clergymen. I should say that in same in one country as in the other.
the case of the vested schools the proportion of 929. But we have six different standards:
clerical managers is greater even than it is in the surely it is conceivable that what might be re-
case of the non-vested schools.
quired of a child, for instance, in the third
921. Do you think that you are near a system standard in England might be expected of a
of compulsion in Ireland in regard to education ? child in the fourth standard in Ireland, or vice
- I hope so, and I think so.
versâ; there is no necessity, is there, in the
922. You think that the country is getting
nature of things, that the standard should be the
prepared for it?-I think that the unanimous
same ?- In Ireland we have six standarıls also,
vote of the House of Commons last Session has
prepared the country for such a measure.
pretty skilful arrangement; and from what I have
923. And do you think that the large religious
seen of the English books, I think that the Irish
persuasions in Ireland, especially the Roman
books are graduated ou just as skilful an ar-
Catholic Church, which contains such a large
rangement, and on the whole, perhaps, contain
proportion of the population, will be inclined to matter requiring a little more thought than the
support compulsory education ?-I have no reason
English readers.
to think anything to the contrary.
930. Then your opinion is derived from a
924. Do you believe that that will lead to a comparison of the books used, and not from a
very large increase of Imperial expenditure ?-I comparison between the different inspectors and
think it must necessarily do so, if there were the standards they have applied ?-As regards
nothing else to cause it than the additional results
what an inspector might accept as a test in reading
fees that the teachers will earn. On an increased
in any one standard, say, for example, in the
attendance of the pupils an increased expenditure
re fifth standard; I take it that an inspector in
will be a natural result.
Ireland would require pretty much the same as
925. Can you give us no encouragement under an inspector in England; he would require a cer-
the present Ministerial responsibility of the Lord tain measure of intelligence, a certain power of
Lieutenant and the Chief Secretary to hope that explaining the meanings of the words, and a cer-
there will be a large amount of local aid to meet tain expertness on the whole as a ready reader.
that expenditure?-I do not think you can expect,
931. Is that merely the result of your idea of
at all events in this generation, to get Ireland to
what would naturally take place, or is it derived
contribute as much, proportionately, towards ele-
from any comparison between the inspectors or
mentary education as you have already suc-
the standards applied ?- When we resolved to
ceeded in getting England and Scotland to do.
introduce the system of payment by results into
In England a very large amount of the local
Ireland, I came over here, and through the kind-
contributions come from the parents of the pupils;
ness of Sir Ralph Lingen, then in the Educa-
in Ireland a very large amount never can be ex-
tion Department, I visited schools with a number
pected to come from the parents in consequence
of inspectors, and on the whole, I thought that
of the poverty of the great mass of the people.
an Irish inspector would, perhaps, not give ques-
tions quite so easy as an English inspector; but
Sir John Lubbock.
I do not find any fault with the questions given
by the English inspectors.
926. Are any practical stops being taken 9:32. In what year was that ?--In 1866 or
towards introducing a system of compulsion in 1867. And since then I have had frequent
education in Ireland ?-I know that the matter is opporiunities of talking, year after year, upon
under the consideration of the Government; I this and kindred subjects, with English inspectors,
am hardly at liberty to say anything further. I and with my own officers on their return from their :
myself sketched out a little scheme in a public holiday trips, after visiting English schools.
: 0.51.
933. Do
58
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
25 March 1884.]
Sir P. J. KEENAN, K.C.M.G., C.B.
[Continued.
Sir John Lubbock-continued.
Mr. Herbert-continued.
933. Do you practically do that, send over the theoretical part given through books and in
your inspectors occasionally to compare notes the school, and secondly, in the practical part
with inspectors here? -Our inspectors and the given on a farm; and up to the present time this
officers in the training department, and many of rigid action of ours has not inspired any increase
the principal teachers, frequently, as a matter of in the numbers.
choice, spend their holidays profitably, not only 941. The Department has reason to be satisfied,
in England, but in countries on the Continent; you think, with the results in the agricultural
and when they return I generally get the ad- schools?-- The Department is very much satisfied
vantage of their experience.
at present with the hopeful position that the
934. But that they do from their interest in agricultural system presents.
the subject, not officially ?-Now and then we
942. Then about the managers, do I rightly
have sent our officers officially, not only to Eug-
understand that the managers are appointed by
land but to the Continent. On a recent occasion
on the Department ?--No; the managers are the
we sent our agricultural inspector to Denmark
original applicants in the first instance; and if
and Sweden, and Norway, when we had an idea
the original applicant was a clergyman, his
of improving our agricultural education, par- clerical successor becomes the manager; if the
ticularly in the matter of dairy farming.
original applicant was a layman, his legal repre-
935. Is there any system of inspection at all
sentative becomes the manager. The Board has
simply to express its recognition of the new ap-
in Ireland now, with regard to the interinediate
pointment.
education; any means of knowing huw far the
943. Has the Board any power to displace a
grammar schools and institutions of that character,
manager?-It has; but that must be after inquiry
are carried on in accordance with the schemes ?-
made upon the spot into the subject matter of
None. When the present intermediate system
complaint, which the Board may have against
of education in Ireland was under consideration,
the manager, and after due notice is given to all
it was designed that the two officers wlio were to
persons concerned.
act as assistant commissioners and secretaries
should also pay occasional visits to the schools,
Sir Lyon Playfair.
but chiefly to look after the records of attendance,
944. Are the agricultural schools organised in
inasmuch as attendance was an item of conside-
ration in the determination of the results' fees to
the same way as the vested and non-vested
the teachers ; but even that I do not think has
schools, and with managers similar to the ordinary
schools ?- The 70 agricultural schools under local
ever been attempted.
management are established in the same way as
936. Do you think it might be desirable to
ordinary vested or non-vested schools; but the
have occasional inspections of the intermediate
two large farms which I mentioned a few moments
schools, to see how far they have been carried on
ago remain still under the direct management of
in accordance with the schemes laid down for the Board. They were started by the Board, and
them ?-I think it would be very desirable.
are conducted still by the Board.
937. Do you think it would be possible for the
Chief Secretary to carry that on ; would not that
Mr. Herbert.
be a reason for the connection with the Minister 945. Only two out of 70?–The two are plus
of Education which has been suggested by Sir the 70.
Lyon Playfair ?-I think the Chief Secretary 9 46. You say that the managers in the non-
would be more likely to get a welcome for his vested schools have the power to introduce sub-
inspector, if he sent one, in those intermediate jects such as religious subjects over and above
schools, than would a Minister sending one from
the programme issued by the Board ?--Provided
head quarters here in London.
it is notified upon the time table.
947. Do you get many complaints or any com-
Mr. Herbert.
plaints in Dublin, with regard to the religious
instruction in these schools?-I think within the
938. You mentioned that there were 70 of the last five years not a single complaint of such a
agricultural schools; are those included in the character has been received.
8,046 national schools ?-- They are.
948. You say that you think that the country
939. Do you find that the pupils there come is getting ripe for accepting some scheme of com-
up to the standard in other things besides agricul- pulsory education ?-I think it is.
tural matters? They must, or the master fails 949. Do you think that the majority of these
to get results for his agricultural pupils. The managers, who are mostly clerics, are in favour
essentials are looked to first; the ordinary things, of such a system ?-I mentioned in public, in the
reading, writing, and arithmetic.
address to the Social Science Congress, to which
940. I gather that these agricultural schools
I have already referred, that I had had conver-
are apparently on the increase with regard to the
sations with managers of all degrees, clerics of
number of pupils ?-I cannot say that they are
all the churches, upon the subject of compulsory
on the increase. Within the last few years a
attendance at schools, and that the opinion of
much more rigid inspection of those schools, and
nearly every leading person whom I had con-
a much more careful looking after them have
sulted was strongly in favour of some measure of
been undertaken by the Board; and we require compulsion.
that every school shall be properly equipped,
that the farms shall be skilfully conducted, that
Mr. James Campbell.
the agricultural instruction shall consist, first in 950. Are the agricultural schools for more
advanced
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
59
25 March 1884.7
Sir P. J. KEENAN, K.C.M.G., C.B.
[Continued.
Skiretty na telept in cramma been one of ic
Mr. James Campbell —continued.
Mr. James Campbell-continued.
advanced scholars?--No, they are like the ordi- what I did mention was that we have always
nary schools in rural districts.
been making an effort to improve the buildings;
951. Is it merely an agricultural department but that if a compulsory system were adopted.
attached to the ordinary school ?- Supplemental we should certainly want a considerable number
to the ordinary education of an elementary of new schools.
school.
958. These schools would be, some of them,
952. Then, in an agricultural school, you have the property of the Board, I suppose ? - Very
the most elementary branches of ordinary educa- likely, if the applicants chose to apply to the
tion taught? _Precisely as in any other school. Board for contributions towards their erection;
953. You mentioned just now that you thought then they might be vested in the Board or yested
the subjects of examination in the Irish schools in trustees. In many cases no doubt the pro-
were fully as difficult as in the English schools ?- moters of the new schools would simply propose
I think they are.
them as non-vested, and under such circumstances
they would obtain no aid towards their erection.
954. Have you something like the same stan-
dards ?- We have a developinent of standards,
959. For what term of office are the Com-
missioners appointed ?-During the pleasure of
and I think that on the whole those standards
the Lord Lieutenant, but practically that means
are somewhat higher than the standards in Eng-
for life.
land, I was going to observe, in answer to a ques-
tion put to me by Sir John Lubbock just now,
that taking Standards 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, which
Mr. Raikes.
are conversant with reading, writing, arithmetic,
960. When you said just now that you thought
grammar, geography, and so on, they would be
public opinion in Ireland was fairly ripe for the
pretty much the same in England and in Jre-
introduction of compulsory education, do you
land, except indeed as regards grammar and
attribute that disposition rather to the confidence
geography; for grammar and geography have,
which is felt by the Irish people in the manager
as long as I remember, been obligatory subjects
ment of the National Board; I mean, do you
in Ireland in all classes capable of learning them;
think that there would be the same disposition
in England that has not been the case. If, how-
to receive compulsory education if it were to be
ever, you take a subject like geometry or alge-
administered by a Department in Whitehall?-I
bra, the requirements are higher in Ireland. In
do not think so at all. From what I know of the
Ireland the programme, say for geometry and
reception intended to be given to compulsory
mensuration, in the first examination, is 32 pro-
education in Ireland by the leading personages
positions of the First Book of Euclid, and in
in connection with the country, their adherence
mensuration the area of rectilineal figures. Now
to it is given very much upon what they believe
the first examination in England consists simply
ply to be the practical knowledge that the National
of 26 propositions of the First Book. Then, in the
Board of Education in Ireland possesses, of what
second examination in Ireland, the programme
might reasonably be expected as a necessary
includes Books I. and II. of Euclid; and in
qualifying attendance on the part of the pupils
mensuration the circle, the ellipse, the zone,
under the compulsory system. Such a knowledge
and surfaces of the principal solids. In England
could hardly be possessed by a Minister in Lon-
the examination in the corresponding standard
don.
is simply the First Book of Euclid.
961. You think there would be a much greater
difficulty in a Minister of Education who had his
Sir John Lubbock.
office in London, obtaining the assent of the Irish
people to a system of compulsory education ?-I
955. My questions had reference more to the
think, enormously greater.
reading and writing; and I think I gathered 962. You said, think just now, that nearly
that, without having had any official comparison
every Catholic parish priest is a school manager?
or any statement in any official form, you had I think there are very few in the country who
satisfied yourself that the standards of the two are not school managers.
countries were practically equal ?-Practically,
963. Have you any precise figures which you
in the ordinary standards. But I think I did say
could give us, as to the proportion of clerical
that in arithmetic our requirements are somewhat
managers to lay managers ? -I am now only able
higher than they are in England.
to give the statistics of 1881 in answer to your
question; I have not had an opportunity of col-
Mr. James Campbell.
lecting more recent statistics upon the point. At
that time there were 1,269 Catholic priests, who
956. In whom is the property of the national
had 4,825 schools under their management, and
school buildings vested?—The non-vested na-
212 Catholic laymen, who had 303 schools; a
tional schools belong to the managers or to the
total of 1,481 Catholic managers with 5,128
landlords, who give the use of them to the schools. Then there were 412 cleroymen of the
managers ; but in the case of the vested schools late Established Church, who had 608 schools.
the property belongs either to trustees or to the and there were 374 laymen of the late Esta-
Board itself; that is the school is vested in trus- blished Church, who had 757 schools; total, 786
tees or in the Board in its corporate capacity. late Established Church managers, with 1,305
957. You mentioned that there was a prospect schools. Then there were 344 Presbyterian
of extensive repairs being required, and many Ministers, who had 588 schools, and there were
new schools being built, if a compulsory system 191 Presbyterian laymen, who had 226 schools :
of education were adopted ?-As regards repairs, total, 535 Presbyterian managers, who had 814
0.51.
II 2
schouls.
60
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
25 March 1884.]
Sir P. J. KEENAN, K,C,M,G,, C,B,
[ Continued.
19.0992 manas at the four sitele
Yes.
et au makes no public cont of the colore educational som
Mr. Raikes-- continued.
Mr. Raikes-continued.
schools. Then there were 45 Dissenting clergy 970. Is that largely availed of ?-Not largely.
men, who had 62 schools, and 45 Dissenting lay 971. We used to hear a good deal, some years
men, who also had 62 schools; total, 90 Dissent- ago, of the grievance of the teachers in conse-
ing managers with 124 schools. The figures I quence of the insecurity of their tenure ; do
have just quoted show a total of 2,070 clerical you consider that that lias been met by the pro-
managers, having 6,083 schools, and 822 lay vision of three months' notice being required ?-
managers having 1,348 schools ; grand total, I think to a very large extent it has been met
2,892 managers, having 7,431 schools.
by that provision of a three months' notice.
964. So that the clerical managers control Managers were never of the hard-hearted cha-
about three-fourths to four-fifths of the national racter that they were represented to be in regard
schools, taking them of all denominations ?- to dismissing their teachers without proper cause;
but the teachers theoretically regarded their
965. Could you tell me, with regard to the position as an unhappy one, in being liable to
proportion of the vested and the non-vested dismissal at a moment's notice, and accordingly they
schools, are the non-vested schools, as a agitated strongly against the then existing arrange-
rule, under clerical management ?- There is ment, and their agitation ended in the concession
hardly a difference in respect of the pro- of a three months' notice being required on both
portion of clerical and lay managers between the sides. If a teacher chooses to go away he, too,
vested and non-vested. On the whole, I think has to give three months' notice ; and the expe-
if there is any inclination to one side or the rience of the office in Dublin is that of the two
other, it would be that there were more clerical elements, the teacher and the manager, if there is
managers of vested schools ; for a very good any suffering at all, it is the teacher who has suf-
reason, that clerics are more in want of money to fered by the rule, in not being able when a good
aid them in their efforts to build schools than lay- school offers at once to fly off to it.
men.
972. But the Board has no power to retain a
966. I think you said that since the disesta- teacher in his position if the three months'
·blishment of the Church of Ireland, the Church notice has been given ?- None whateverto
Education Society has practically ceased to bring retain him in that particular school.
much pressure to bear upon your Board ?-It has 973. And that notice, as I understand, niay be
entirely ceased as a public instrument of educa- based upon any arbitrary determination on the
tion. It remains, I understand, simply as a part of the manager ? — The manager is not
remnant in the shape of an officer or an office; bound to tell the teacher why it is that he is
but it makes no public appearance and has no parting with him if he gives him the three months'
funds, and it is entirely out of the educational notice.
arena. The Protestant element in public educa- 974. For instance, I think cases were men-
tion in Ireland in connection with the Irish tioned some 10 or 12 years ago, when this ques-
Church is guided by an educational committee or tion was before the House, in which a manager
department of the Irish Church Synod; and required a teacher to perform other services to
they appear to me to be entirely in harmony with him extraneous to those he was bound to render
the National system.
in his school, and on the teacher declining to
967. But I understand from what you said render those services, the manager would be able
just now that during the last five years they to give him three months' notice ?--The manager,
have made very few, if any, representations to no doubt, could give him the three months'
the National Board ?-Fron no quarter, neither notice; but I am bound to add that if any such
from the Protestant side nor from the Catholic transaction ever came to the ears of the Board,
side has anything in the nature of a complaint the Board would at once let the manager know
on religious grounds come to the Board within their opinion about it.
my recollection. The rules of the Board are so 975. Could they do more than letting him
clearly stated, and managers and teachers have know their opinion about it?—No more than
taken them up so honourably, that an infraction that, unless the case were of such a scandalous
of rule on the score of religious instruction is character that the Board thought, after inquiry,
almost a thing out of the question.
the manager should be dismissed.
968. Scholars of different creeds attend the 976. Supposing, for instance, a clerical ma-
same schools, do they not? -In a very large nager was to require a teacher in his school to
number of cases. Of course there are parts of play the organ in his church or chapel, without
Ireland where there is no possibility of a mix remuneration, and the teacher declined to do so,
ture, and even where there is a possibility of and the manager thereupon dismissed him ?--
mixture the cleroy of the different denominations The Board would not interfere in such a case as
are so anxious for schools of their own in which that if the manager gave the three months' notice.
they can give their own religious instruction 977. How if he required the teacher to wait
that the element of mixture is considerably upon him at dinner! I think the board
lessened by that fact.
interfere in that case, and very properly.
969. You said that there is a privilege pos- 978. They would draw the line there!Cer-
sessed by the minority in a vested school to tainly In the one case the grievance would not
obtain separate religious instruction if they think be so great; in the other it would be hor-
proper ?-To obtain the opportunity in the rible.
school of having separate religious instruction in
Viscount Lymington.
their own faith by a clergyman, although not 979. In regard to the responsibility of the
the manager of the school, having the confidence Irish Secretary with reference to the National
of the parents.
Board, what is your opinion upon that point?-I
tried
deparch is quand instant elemt of the and hattice;
fide has anythrounds comes of the Boares hav
my recollection and managers a that an infrac
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
61
25 March 1884.
Sir P. J. KEENAN, K.C.M.G., C.B.
[Continued.
Viscount Lymington-continued.
Viscount Lymington-continued.
tried to express my opinion just now, that his having in view the poverty of Ireland, how far
responsibility is first to investigate every finan- that is possible ?--The sum to be gained cannot
cial proposal made by the Board, and if he be a very large one; we cannot expect anything
approves of such proposal, to send it on to the like corresponding local contributions in Ireland
Treasury, and if the Treasury approve, by-and- to the contributions which are so general in
bye, to espouse that proposal in the House of England and in Scotland.
Commons, and carry a vote for it.
. 987. But would the advantage, in your opinion,
980. I put, a question very similar to that from increasing the local contributious, be at all
which I am asking you, to Mr. Forster, who was
commensurate with the increase of popular
examined here, and I think his answer amounted
opiniou against it; in other words, would the
to this, that he seemed to say that there was a
increased sum of money that you would get if
theoretical responsibility, but that the responsi-
you were to attempt to raise more money from
bility was not whit one might call a full and an the rates, be at all commensurate with the
intelligent responsibility; he said : “ As Irish
Secretary I myself had nothing to do with the would have to
business conducted by the Board ” ? - He had
such an amount of ill-feeling and hostility as your
nothing to do with the actual transaction of the question would indicate. I should hope, that.
business at the Board, for he was not a member when it is fairly represented to the guardians
of the Board ; but he had everything to do with that such a measure is indispensable they will
anything that required representation either to submit with a good grace; and, as a matter of
the Treasury or in the House of Commons; for fact, I know that some of the leading people in
the Board had to communicate with him for that the country are entirely for that compulsory
purpose, and he had to approve or disapprove.
In some instances Chief Secretaries and Lord
Lieutenants have disapproved and refused to
988. But you are, I have no doubt, aware that
the local taxation of Ireland has increased since
become the medium of the Board in representing
1872 by over a million; whereas the valuation of
a particular case to the Treasury, or afterwards
the country has remained almost stationary ?-I
to the House of Commons.
981. Can you vive us an actual instance of was not aware of that.
that?--A proposal was made in 1879 by the 989. I should like to ask you whether you have
Commissioners to increase the income of the at all considered any way by which the Chief
teachers by a sum of, I think, 62,000 1., to be Secretary could be put in a more direct position
distributed on the principle of payment by of responsibility as regards the National Buard ?
results. The Chief Secretary of the time, Mr. - I have thought the matter over since I had
Lowther, declined to submit that part of the the honour of being asked to come over to give
proposal which involved the distribution of the evidence before this Committee, and I could
money on the system of payment by results, but hardly suggest any change in that respect; I
did propose to the House of Commons and carry can only say, as I think I tried to say before, to-
a vote for an increase to the permanent or class day, that I have known Chief Secretaries in
salaries.
Ireland who took such a deep interest in the
982, But, as a matter of practice and prece- working of the National system of education,
dent, it would be unusual for the Irish Secretary that one would fancy they were ministers of
to interfere in the working details with the Board education rather than Chief Secretaries. Of
of Commissioners ?- Entirely.
course there are times when the general condition
983. Unless there was any new scheme pro of the country may absorb the whole, or most, of
posed ? --Or any serious modification of an old one. the attention of a Chief Secretary, and then he
984. But all the practical machinery in work- cannot think much about National Education ;
ing out the system would be left entirely to the but in ordinary times the Chief Secretaries that
Board of Commissioners ?-Of course the Board I have had experience of, spent a very con-
must at all times be perfectly independent in siderable portion of their time upon, and gave a
that respect.
great deal of their attention to, this question of
985. I think I understood you to say, in con- National Education.
nection with your remarks as regards the
990. Do you think that the Irish Secretary
ought to be, ex-officio, a member of the Board ?--
sibility, that, if a Minister for Ireland were
I have expressed my views upon that point
appointed to take charge of education, it might
already. As you have opened the question again,
result that there might be a system of compulsory
I should mention, perhaps, that in the year 1835,
education; could you tell us whether, as regards
when a Bill was brought into Parliament by Mr.
compulsory education, you consider that it would
Wyse, Mr. Smith O'Brien, and Lord Kerry, to
be possible to raise any more from the local rates ?
establish a Board of National Education on a
-Under a compulsory system you mean? I
new basis in Ireland, there was in that Bill a
think that simultaneously with the passing of a
proposal to make the Chief Secretary for Ireland,
compulsory system it would be exceedingly
ex-oficio, the President of the Board ; but that
desirable that the law, having reference to the
never became law.
contributions which the guardians of unions may
make towards the support of national schools, 991. I want to ask you whether you consider
should be extended, that in point of fact it that the magistrates of Ireland wonld be a body
should be made compulsory.
through whom, if compulsory education were
986. But may I ask you, as a practical man, adopted, it might be applied ?-The magistrates,
0.51.
H 3
62
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
25 March 1884.]
Sir P. J. KEENAN, K.C.M.G., C.B.
[Continued.
Viscount Lymington—coutinued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
if compulsory education be established, must play religion may form part and parcel of the in-
a very important part in it.
struction every hour of the day, and where there
992. And you do not think there would be is no restriction and no conscience clause.
any inconvenience in that respect on public
996. If that is what is meant by a denomi-
grounds ?---Not a particle.
national school then, there is none in the whole
of the United Kingdom, I imagine; because
Sir Lyon Playfuir.
there are no denominational schools in England
without a time-table conscience clause. I think
993. You know that there are two systems of we mean the same thing under different names?
schools in Great Britain; denominational schools I think we mean precisely the same thing,
with a' time-table conscience clause, and rate- only I prefer my own definition of what an Irish
supported schools; I presume your system is National school is.
only one ; that all your schools are practically 997. But I venture to draw this inference ;
denominational schools with the time-table con- that the religious feeling being very strong in
science clause ?-All our schools are schools connection with schools in Ireland, you think it
open to children of every denomination, with a would be very inexpedient to lessen the respon-
conscience clause; that, I think, is the best way sibility of the National Board with reference to
to define it.
education by placing it under a, minister of
994. Would you not go further than that, and education in this country?_That is quite my
say that each of your schools, being to a great meaning.
extent under clerical managers, these schools are
Chairman.
denominational schools with a time-table con-
998. Is there anything left in the National
science clause?-I would rather have iny own
schools of the old common religious education
definition than give that name to an Irish
with which they began in 1833 ?-I might almost
National school; but, practically, as you say,
say that the common religious instruction has
where there is but one denomination, and the
entirely disappeared; but the daily separate
school is under a manager and teachers of the
religious instruction is practically universal.
same religion as the children, you might call
999. Your non-vested schools are, after all,
that a denominational school.
more like our denominational schools, are they
995. Where there are 97 per cent. of the not, because no clergyman of a different faith
children Roman Catholics and 3 per cent. Pro- from the manager is allowed to come in ?-In
testants, the three Protestant children are able that respect they are identical.
to retire at the tiine of religious service; but 1000. Whereas, in our Board schools, oppor-
would you not still call that a denominational tunity may always be given to a clergyman of
school ? -In Ireland we should hesitate to call it any faith to come in out of school hours ?-That
a denominational school. In Ireland a denomi- corresponds with the privilege in vested schools
national school is understood to be a school where in Ireland.
Mr. J. CARMICHAEL TAYLOR, called in; and Examined.
Chairman.
1001. Will you state to the Committee the
exact title of your office ?-Financial Assistant
Secretary to the Board of National Education of
Ireland.
1002. You have heard Sir Patrick Keenan's
evidence; I only want to ask you to supplement
one part of it. You or your immediate superior
in the office prepare the estimates of the National
Board ?-Yes.
1003. You prepare those estimates from the
instructions of the Board ?- The course that is
adopted is this : I prepare the estimates and sub-
mit them to the resident Commissioner, and then
take his direction.
1004. Then do they go from the Board to the
Chief Secretary ?--They go from the Commis-
sioners to the Chief Secretary,
1005. And then the Chief Secretary criticises
them and returns them to the Board ?- The
Chief Secretary having criticised them sends
them forward to the Treasury.
1006. But if the Chief Secretary proposes any
alteration in the estimates, does he not send
them back to the Board ?- Very frequently ve
have considerable correspondence before the
estimates are finally sent forward by the Chicf
Secretary to the Treasury.
Chairman-continued.
1007. But the point I meant was this: the
Board in communication with the Chief Secre-
tary, and with the approval of the Chief
Secretary, settle the estimates ? _Yes, that is so.
1008. They then go to the Treasury ?-Yes.
1009. You have frequent communication with
the Treasury, have you not ?--We have frequent
communication with the Treasury direct; but in
reference to all matters connected with the
estimates, the correspondence, in the first
instance, is entirely with the Chief Secretary
who represents the Lord Lieutenant.
1010. That is not quite an answer to my
question: After the estimates have been ap-
proved by the Chief Secretary they are criticised
by the Treasury ?-They are then criticised by
the Treasury.
1011. When the Treasury criticise your
estimates do they return them to you direct or
through the Lord Lieuterant or the Chief
Secretary ?- When the Treasury criticise our
estimates the general course they auoi
preliminaries having been settled, to submit the
estimates to Parliament; and we hear merely
from the Treasury, indirectly, that is, through
the Chief Secretary, whether the estimates have
been approved of in their entirety, or whether
the
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
63
25 March 1884 ]
Mr. TAYLOR.
[Continued.
Chairman --continued.
Sir Lyon P’layfair-continued.
the Treasury have taken exception to any par- Secretaries, have been under the consideration
ticulars in the estimates.
of successire Lord Lieutenants, and have been
1012. That is to say', when the Treasury most critically examined by the Treasury, and
question, and take exceprion to any particular the expansion of the expenditure on natioual
item in your estimate, they do not correspond education has been done in the light and under
with you on the subject, but they correspond the most careful and exhaustive criticism.
with the Chief Secretary ?-With the Chief 1022. Criticism by whom?-By the Treasury
Secretary entirely.
and by the Chief Secretary.
1013. And between the Treasury and the 1023. But has it been done under the most
Chief Secretary The estimates are finally settled ? exhaustive criticism by the House of Cominons ?
- They are finally settled between them.
-There have been oſten in the House of Commons
1014. So that the Chief Secretary in that re- questions raised in connection with the expen-
spect acts strictly as i Minister of Education ? diture, when the Chief Secretaries have brought
Practically, he does.
the Vote for Public Education in Ireland before
the House of Commons.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
1024. How often do you recollect that; I
1015. I should like to ask you one or two have been in the House of Commons for 16
questions on that: in 1862 your population was years ; how often has it been discussed during
five and three quarter millions ?-Yes, in round that time, do you suppose ?-I might mention,
numbers.
in illustration, that if we went back to the year
1016. In 1882 you had practically reduced it 1861, within a year or so of that period you
by three-quarters of a million; it was 5,097,000. have referred to, there was a statement made by
Now, did you not double your expenditure be- the then Chief Secretary to the effect that there
tween these two periods; you decreased your should be no increase to the number of model
population by practically about three-quarters of a schools in Ireland that had been determined upon
million, but you doubled the expenditmre on edu- by the Irish Governnient, without bringing the
cation, did you not?-Yes; no dubt the expendi- matter specially before the House of Commons
ture on education has been growing-latterly very for the consideration and sanction of the House.
rapidly-and especially since thesystem of results 102.5. When did the Royal Commission to
was instituted in the year 1871-2.
inquire into Primary Education in Ireland sit ?
1017. You have, in the same period, increased --From 1868 to 1870, that Royal Commission,
the number of persons at school by nearly one which was presided over by Lord Porris, went
fourth ?-Yes.
into the entire history of the development of
1018. You had 812,000 pupils on the rolls in education from the year 1831.
1862, aul you had 1,083,000 in 1882?—Yes.
1026. Would not tlie figures we liave re-
1019. Therefore you liave increased your ferred to show that tlie expenditure upon educa-
school attendance by one-fourth ; but you have tion in Ireland is growing in a much greater
more than doubled the expenditure; because ratio than the number of pupils ?--Yes; but I
your expenditure was 317,000l. in 1862 and should explain that the system of education has
758,000 1. in 1882. You have therefore increased had a longer history than that to which your
your school attendance hy one-fourth, but you comparison relates; because if you went back
have doubled your expenditure ? - Yes,—that further you would come to a period when the
is, approximately, the gross cost of the system to aid granted by the State for the development of
the State.
National Education was in the form of mere
1020. Do you not think that, if there was a trifling gratuities.
responsible Minister of Education in the House, 1027. That was 30 years before ?- The system
some inquiry would be made about that, as to itself has been growing. In the first instance,
how it is that you have only increased your school the teachers only received small gratuities, about
attendance by one-fourth, and yet have doubled 101. or so, for each 100 pupils; and gradually
your expenditure ?-I do not think that any there were improved scales of salaries suc-
Minister in the House could possibly take more cessively sanctioned by the Treasury. I need
trouble in considering our estimates, or examine not tell you that the Treasury did not agree to
the conditions more ininutely and critically and the successive scales of salaries without very
carefully than the Chief Secretary does.
careful inquiry and examination into all the cir-
1021. But, take it in this way: I am a cumstances bearing on the system of education
Member of the House very much interested in in Ireland. I think there have been 13 succes-
education, and I never recognised that fact till sive scales of salaries to the teachers of national
the figures were laid before us by Sir Patrick schools. The system of results' payment in-
Keenan to-day; do you think that if the troduced in the year 1871-2, with the approval
estimates had come before us in that striking of Parliament, caused a great development in
way in which Sir Patrick Keenan has put the the average daily attendance of children, the real
matter, we would not have questioned a Minister basis of comparison.
of Education upon such a startling result ?- 1028. How much do the results' fees annount
The facts which you have just been referring to, to now?..- The results' fees amount at present to
and all the cognate facts bearing upon the his about 140,000 1. for the ordinary schools, and
tory of the development of national education in about 3,000 1. for the model schools under a
Ireland, have been before successire Chief separate Sub-head of the Vote.
childre,opmentoval
ce esuht do the
0.51.
H 4
64
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEL
Tuesday, 1st April 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Herbert.
Sir John Lubbock.
Viscount Lymington.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Raikes.
MR. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, IN THE CHAIR.
The Right Honourable ANTHONY JOHN MUNDELLA (a Member of the House); Examined.
Chairman.
Chairman-continued.
1029. You are the actual Vice President of higher grades of the staff, is entirely by com-
I am.
apply to the Civil Service Commissioners; but
1030. The object of the appointment of the the examiners, the assistant secretaries, the sec-
Committee, is to consider how the responsibility retary, the chiefs of the staff at South Kensington,
under which the Education and kindred Votes and the whole of the inspectors, and their pro-
are administered may be best secured, and I motion, have been exclusively in the patronage
think you have seen the evidence which Sir of the Lord President.
Francis Sandford gave as to the present arrange- 1035. And now the Lord President consults
ments ?-I have.
you as to all those different appointinents ?
1031. Have you anything to add on that point Within the last year he has done so.
to Sir Francis Sandford's evidence; has he 1036. I presume that if you differed you would
correctly described the existing arrangements ?- defer to the Lord President; or what would you
I am not sure that I agree with Sir Francis do?-My action in the matter is purely advisary.
Sandford in all his statements of detail.
There can be no difference because I never sign
1032. Then I will ask you a question or two the paper with respect to promotion or to open
to bring that out; Sir Francis has described to appointments; the Lord President consults me,
us the functions of the Lord President and the but I have no voice, and therefore there can be
Vice President, with respect first to primary no division of opinion.
education, in this way: he said that all the 1037. He consults you by word of mouth, but
business, except such business as related to your opinion is not placed on record ?-My
patronage, was taken or sent by him to the Vice opinion is not recorded.
President, and that probably not in one out of a 1038. Going from that for a moment to the
hundred cases did the matter go up to the Lord general business of the Department, as a Depart-
President?- That is correct.
ment of Primary Education, I think you said
1033. Then he said that with respect to matters that you agreed with Sir Francis Sandford that
of patronage, the Lord President was communi- not more than one in a hundred cases went up
cated with by him directly, but that he believed the beyond you to the Lord President?-No, not
Lord President often consulted you as to matters even that, I think.
of patronage, and that quite lately sorne arrange- 1039. But the large matters such as the annual
ment had been made under which you practically changes in the Code, the re-construction of the
jointly exercised patronage?- When I took office Code, and any question involving legislation I
now undoubtedly, in the Lord President, and I Any questions of principle, or questions involv-
understood that it was not in accordance with ing a new departure would undoubtedly be sub-
precedent for him to consult the Vice President. mitted by me to the Lord President; also any
There has however been a considerable change very delicate or difficult cases that were likely to
of late, inasmuch as the Prime Minister, on the be the subject of discussion in Parliament would
appointment of Lord Carlingford as successor to be referred to him.
Lord Spencer, gave a distinct pledge to the 1040. Then may we say generally that the
House of Commons that the Lord President questions which you send up to the Lord Presi-
should consult me on all questions of patronage; dent are the Parliamentary questions, that is to
and Lord Carlingford has invariably done so. say, questions which are likely to become matters
1034. Questions of patronage, I suppose, mean of discussion in Parliament; but questions
not so much the appointment of clerks under the which are not likely to become matters of dis-
competitive examination system, as the appoint- cussion in Parliament you deal with conclusivley?
ment of inspectors ?- The appointment of the - Yes.
clerks and the staff of the office, except in the 1041. Has there been, during your tenure of
the
NO.
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
65
1 April 1884.]
Right Hon. A. J. MUNDELLA, M.P.
[Continued.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
the Vice Presidency, much difference of opinion 1018. But, on those final occasions, do you
between you and the successive Presidents on remember ever being overruled ? --Never.
individual occasions ? My personal relations 1049. So that practically the Code, as it was
with both the Lord Presidents have been ex- re-cast in 1881, and siuce, has been re-cast
ceedingly amicable and agreeable, and they have strictly in accordance with your views ?-
paid great respect to my opinion. Undoubtedly Strictly.
we have not always agreed, but in almost all 10:50. And in that respect the supremacy of
cases we have arrived at an agreement,
the Lord President, though a fact, has had no
1042. If you had been the actual Minister, effect? -None at all. The Lord President was
without the Lord President as your official satisfied with the reasons which were assigned
superior would that practically have made much for every change that we have made.
difference in its results ?-I think it would have 1051. Going, then, back again to questions of
made some difference.
patronage, there is, is there not, a list kept at the
1043. You mean some things would have been Council Office of candidates for such appoint-
done which have not been done ?-Certainly. ments as are not obtained through competitive
1044. So that, though to a limited amount, the
examinations ?-I know there is such a list; I
headship of the Department in the Lord Presi-
never saw it.
1052. There being such a list, the Lord Presi-
dent has been a reality ?-. I do not think I have
been overruled on more than one or two occasions.
dent has, I presume, selected persons for the
When I first took office I found appointments
appointments, and has consulted you about them
made without my having been consulted ; ap-
before the appointments were made ? - The Lord
pointments of considerable importance on which
Presidents have, practically, had no patronage
I had strong opinions; but whenever I felt that
since I have been in office; their appointments
have been almost nil.
I had any reasonable ground of complaint, I
1053. Nothing but promotions ?-Nothing but
always was very frank with the Lord Presidents,
and I have always found then desirous of con-
promotions. I can explain why, if the Committee
desire it.
sulting me and paying great respect to my
1054. If you please ?-Immediately I took
opinion.
office, I found that every annual increase in the
1045. My question did not so much relate to
rolls of children involved a large increase of
patronage as to the other branches of business
inspectors; 100,000 or 150,000 children came
of the Department; and I meant to put my
upon the rolls fresh every year, an increase that
question in this way: In those matters as to
involved an increase of the inspectors. I bad
which it is occasionally your part to send papers
formed a strong opinion before I came into office
up to the Lord President, has that necessity
practically led to a result anything different from
that nothing could be so mischievous as turning
what it would have been if you had been the
upon the schools young and inexperienced in-
spectors; and I appealed to Lord Spencer not to
Minister; I omit patronage ? - In very few
appoint another inspector without good reason;
instances.
indeed, without its being proved absolutely ne-
1046. Now in the preparation of the Code, or
cessary, and without our having some better
the amendment of the Code, from year to year,
guarantee for his possessing the necessary quali-
do you recollect whether you have been over-
fications for an inspector. I do not think that
ruled in any matters of importance ?-No. The any official that could be appointed has power to
amendment of the Code which we have intro-
inflict so inuch discomfort and discouragement as
duced is a very large amendment, one that is
an inspector who is unfit for his work. He may
entirely a new departure, and that has been be a very distinguished man ; he may be a faith-
effected entirely on a different plan from any-
ful and an energetic officer ; but he may be
thing that has ever been aitempted before. All
entirely out of sympathy with school work
revisions of the Code have been the work here and with child life, and his manner may not be
tofore, as I understand, of the Secretary in con-
at all a happy one in dealing with children,
sultation with the Vice President, the Lord Pre-
managers, and teachers. Therefore I appealed
sident, and some of his officials in and outside the to Lord Spencer not to make any appointment of
Department; but when we took the Code in inspectors till we had had time to look round.
hand, as we promised to do immediately on coming 1055. But, with regard to such appointments
into office, I suggested to Lord Spencer that we
as were made, were they promotions from the
should avail ourselves of the best experts at our rank of assistant inspectors ? —A few days before
command, and appointed a Committee. We first we came into office eight new inspectors had
sent out a draft of our own views to inspectors, been appointed.
a certain number of our inspectors, who reported 1056. Direct from the outer world ?-Direct
upon them; then we submitted these reports to from University men outside ; I do not say that
this Committee I have referred to, and I sat, de they were not required (they were required, no
die in diem, I think, for a long time with this doubt) but they were new men. These men
Committee, discussing with them every article in had to be broken in, so to speak, to their
the Code.
work; and I felt very anxious that we should
1047. Did the Lord President sit with you?- not go on increasing that class of inspectors
No; we submitted the results of our delibera- too largely. We had within our own Depart-
tions to the Lord President, and when it came ment a large number of inspectors' assistants; .
to the final meetings; when we came to the con these men were chosen from the school-
firmation of the Code ; then the Lord President masters for their ability and for their general
on one or two occasions came and sat with us. conduct and bearing and capacity for assistant
0.51.
inspectors.
WOTE, dit
66
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
1 April 1884.]
Right Hon. A. J. MUNDELLA, M.P.
[ Continued.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
inspectors. Some of these men had served or Mr. Armstrong, the Art Director, or Sir Philip
at very low salaries from 10 to 18 years, and Owen, in which I give orders, if they are urgent
were still earning very small salaries; they cases, at once. Suppose, for instance, that we
were very capable men; some of them had taken are offered the purchase of some valuable object
degrees at universities, and they were mem which it is desirable that we should acquire at
possessing all the experience and all the sympathy once, and which, if we were to wait over the
and all the qualities that were necessary for in- Board meeting we should lose; the case is
spectors. I appealed therefore to the Lord brought before me with the evidence of experts
President, on the revision of the Code, for the as to the importance and value of the object, and
appointment of a new class, to be called sub- if I am satisfied that it is a desirable acquisition,
inspectors, giving them the full powers of in- I at once give orders for it to be acquired.
spectors. We have recruited all our staff with 1065. In such cases, if they were serious
one exception from this class up to this moment, matters, would you mention the matter to the
and we propose still further to increase the sub- Lord President?-Most certainly if it were a
inspectorate before we add materially to the matter involving considerable expenditure I
inspectorate. There has been one single in should do so, or if it involved any departure
spector appointed, and that was owing to the fact from the usual administrative work of the De-
that a Welsh speaking inspector was necessary partment.
for the examination of children who spoke 1066. Then, with respect to the Science and
Welsh.
Art Department, you may say that the Lord
1057. And, as I understand, you took him President takes a larger share of the current day
from outside ?-We took him from outside, by day business in that Department than he does
because we had not one inside who could do it. in the primary education ?-Yes ; I should think
1058. I suppose the eight appointments that the Lord President gives more time, perhaps, to
you speak of as having been made just before the Science and Art Department than to any-
you came into office were about the average thing else, the Science and Art Department
number of annual appointments formerly; that occupying a very small share of the work of the
is to say, before the change ?-No; there would whole Department. I might say that the Science
not be so many as eight appointed annually. If and Art Department occupies me one day a week
100,000 children come on to the rolls in the and the Education Department proper five days
course of a year, that would invole three to four a week.
additional inspectors; but then there is always a 1067. Then, besides the Science and Art De-
certaia number of inspectors retiring or dropping partment at South Kensington, you have some
off, so that there would be a certain number of outlying small institutions under your charge?
new appointments to be added. That class of Yes.
appointinent has been stagnant ever since we 1068. Would you mention them to the Com-
have been in office.
mittee ? - There is, for instance, the Irish
1059. Whether it was six or eight a year, or Museum.
whatever the number may have been before the 1069. Let us take that first; do you control
change, Lord Spencer deprived himself of that the business of the Irish Museum in the same
amount of patronage?-He did, at my request. way as that of South Kensington ?- Precisely,
1060. And since then, with one single ex- and through the secretary of the Science and
ception, you say that every appointment has Art Department; he is secretary for that also.
been a promotion ?-Yes. .
1070. You control that business through
1061. And that is the result of your and Lord Colonel Donnelly ?--Through Colonel Donelly.
Spencer's joint action in matters of patronage?- 1071. Is the Irish Government consulted in
Yes. I may say that promotions were made at matters connected with the Irish Museum ?-If
the outset, without my having been consulted. there were any important questions to arise re-
1062. At the outset of your becoming Vice specting the museum, we should avail ourselves
President, you mean?-Yes, at the outset of my of the knowledge which the Lord Lieutenant
official career.
possesses to assist us in deciding that important
1063. But no promotion now takes place with- question. We have done so ; in such cases, for
out your knowledge and without your being instance, as additions to the Museum; I do not
consulted ?- None took place during the last mean additions to the objects, but structural
year without that being done.
additions to the Museum. In the same way we
1064. Now for a moment to pass to your should avail ourselves of his knowledge of the
functions in connection with the Science and men in the matter of an appointment. Dr. Steele,
Art Department. Sir Francis Sandford summed the head director of the Museum in Dublin, died
them up, I think, in this way: that there was a recently, and we consulted Lord Spencer as to
Board, consisting of the principal officers of the the best man out of a number of applicants that
Department, not of Privy Councillors, but of we had for promotion.
the Chief Executive Officers of the Department, 1072. You wrote to the Chief Secretary, or
which met weekly under your Chairmanship or consulted Lord Spencer ? – We consulted Lord
the Lord President's Chairmanship; and that at Spencer; privately, not officially.
Board, all the work of the Science and Art De 1073. Will you take another Department?
partment which required superior decision was Take the Museum at Edinburgh.
practically done? -No, not all the work. A great 1074. Do you control the operations of that
deal of the work is done there at our weekly museum in the same way ?- Entirely.
Board meetings; but cases arise from day to day, 1075. Colonel Donnelly being responsible to
upon which I am consulted by Colonel Donnelly you ?--Yes.
1076. And
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
67
1 April 1884.]
Right Hon. A. J. MUNDELLA, M.P.
[ Continued.
10916, whichiddle clasave a g
YU
Chairmun-continued.
Chairman-continued
1076. And the museum officers corresponding and make such reports as they think necessary,
officially with you? Yes.
with respect to all endowed schools ?-I cannot
1077. Are there any others you can name; conceive anything more important or more in.
you have the School of Science in Dublin under structive or that would have a greater tendency
your control, have you not?-Yes; the School to promote middle class education in this
of Science in Dublin.
country, which is at present in a chaotic state.
1078. That stands upon the same footing ?- 1090. Would you include in endowed schools,
Yes, the same as the Normal School of Science the first grade ?-I cannot see why the first
in London, and as our Art School at Kensing- grade schools should not report; it would be a
ton.
very good thing, I think, that first grade schools
1079. Then those are practically all the Go- and all educational institutions that either
vernment Departments which are under your receive public money or are in possession of en-
administration, are they?-I think so.
dowments, should be required to report on their
1080. Then would you let me go now outside progress year by year.
the Government Departınents. The Committee 1091. Let us take them in turns ; first of all,
of Council had a great deal to do, had it not, with you say, that you would roquire that from the
settling schemes of Endowed Schools ?-Ori- first grade schools, which are practieally public
ginally probably it had ; but now those schemes schools ?-I think it would be very useful.
are pretty well settled upon definite lines as to 1092. Would you carry that to the public
second and third grade schools, and there is no schools themselves, which have been the subject
need, I think, for anything more than a close of schemes and a new system of government?
watch upon the scheme from time to time; no Certainly.
new question arises, I mean, after the settle- 1093. To the eight public schools ?-Yes, so
ment.
far as requiring them to report is concerned ; I
1081. The Endowed Schools Commissioners think it would be exceedingly desirable that the
were succeeiled by the Charity Commissioners; public should see what is doing. If the autho-
they now having with them the City of London rities of the public schools had to make a report
Cominissioners, as they are called, could do every year, they would learn a great deal them-
nothing except with the sanction of the Council; selves which they do not know now.
and you advised them when their schemes came 1094. But would not the accuracy and value
for approval ?-Yes, we have practically to ex- of that report be enhanced, if you had also the
amine their schemes, and to assent to them; anal power of inspection ?-Enormously.
if we disapprove of a scheme, we send it back to 1095. Do you think you ought to have the
the Charity Commission.
power of inspection ?- The eight public schools
1082. That is to say, you are the Department of England are such sacred things, that I am not
ultimately responsible for the scheme, if one may sure whether we ought to ask for that power;
use the term ? - Yes.
but I have no doubt that they would benefit,
1083. Do you keep up any knowledge of the like all other schools, from an annual exainina-
working of that in which you take so important tion.
a part ?-I am sorry to say that we are deprived 1 096. And, although without having any abso-
of the means of keeping up any knowledge. lute legal control over them, you think that the
1084. Have you no reports, either from the Education Departmeut of the council ought to
Charity Commissioners or from the schools have the power of examination, and inquiry into
direct, as to the operation of the schemes which their condition ?-I should hardly like to say
you settle ?--The Charity Commissioners them that we ought to examine the eight public
selves receive no reports; they have no know- schools; but I am quite satisfied that the schools
ledge of how the schemes work or whether they themselves would be better for public examina-
work at all, after they leave their hands.
tion (all schools are better for public examina-
1085. Is not that a great blot?-It is a great tion), and that if the Reports were submitted to
blot; I have complained of it again and again. Parliament and the country annually, they would
1086. How would you cure it?-I should un- be very instructive, and a comparison of school
doubtedly have annual examinations of all En- with school, would tend to improve the schools.
dowed Schools.
1097. You, I suppose think, that something
1087. Under the Education Department ?.-- of that kind logically follows from the fact of
Certainly. Examination is the very life of these schools having been the subject of new
schools. A school may be a very good school systems under Government schemes ?--Undoubt-
to-day, and five years hence it may be living on edly.
its reputation.
1098. And that Parliament having sanctioned
1088. Was not that Mr. Forster's proposal ? these new arrangements, ought to know how they
-It was Mr. Forster's original proposal, but work?-Certainly; and besides, they are in pos-
he was not able to pass it through the House, and session of large public endowments.
it has been a great misfortune. I know some- 1099. You do not draw any distinction between
thing of the working of endowed schools, but I endowments through the Vote of Parliament,
know it unofficially; and I know that some and endowments through other sources ?-No;
schools that have done excellent service, schools where Parliament has thought it necessary to
possessed of large endowments, have now run deal with the endowments, and to direct their
down and are doing very poor work.
application, Parliament has a right to see that
1089. You think, then, that Parliament ought those endowments are properly applied.
to give the Education Department power to 1100. Then passing from those to the univer-
make such inquiries and to call for such reports, sities, the University of London has a consider-
0:51.
I 2
able
Parliament and the country ammuwang
68
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
1. April 1884.]
Right Hon. A. J. MUNDELLA, M.P.
[Continued.
Chuirman-continued..
Chairman--continued.
able public endowment as you say, from the Vote before approring of the proposal in Parliament ?
of Parliament ? - Yes,
--Certainly.
1101. The Scotch Universities have certain 1115. You think so, I presume, because it is
endowments, and are seeking certain larger en- already the duty of the Department to deal with
dowments ? - Yes.
questions of Science and Art ? - Yes; and more
1102. And they have been the subject of care than that there would be a great advantage in the
ful inquiry ; do you think that they also ought concentration of the responsibility for all these
to come within the purview of the Education institutions under one Minister. Now, for
Department ?-I think they should make an an- instance, the National Gallery has found that it
nual report to show what they are doing for their has surplus pictures which it can circulate
money.
throughout the country; the British Museum has
1103. With or without inspection ?-I do not found that it has duplicate specimens, which it
think you could inspect the universities.
can spare for the provincial museums; in fact I
1104. And I presume, if that were the case as got a clause inserted in the Museum Act before
to Scotch Universities and the University of the present Government came into office (I think
London, you would not think of asking for any it was in 1879) authorising the British Museum
power of inspection with respect to Oxford and to loan or to give duplicate specimens to pro-
Cambridge ? -No.
vincial museums; and they have begun to do so
1105. I think I have now taken you through to some small extent; the National Gallery also
all the purely educational establishments of has begun to circulate surplus pictures to some
Great Britain ; let me, however, go to some small extent, not pictures of such great merit as
Parliantions which let me, onal estab
it.
Parliament, analogous, to a certain extent, to dream of the pictures of the first quality being
your Art and Science Department. Do you so circulated, only such as they can very well
think that the British Museum ought in any way spare ; but we have a great circulating system at
to come under the knowledge of the Education South Kensington, and it would be far better if
Department ?-Certainly, it ought to be under all this circulation was done through one Depart.
some Minister.
ment. We have the necessary vans to run on
1106. That is to say, you think that the Vote the railway; we have the whole organization
for the British Museum should be proposed to complete for making loans, distributing the objects
Parliament upon the responsibility of a Minister ? to all the museums in the country, re-collecting
- I think so.
them and bringing them back; and we do that
1107. And if the Vote is so proposed, upon to an enormous extent and to great advantage.
the responsibility of a Minister, he must have, I I do not think that there is anything in connec-
presume, a current knowledge of the business ? - tion with the Science and Art Department that
Certainly.
is more useful than the circulating systern of the
1108. At present no Minister has that know. South Kensington Museum.
ledge ?- None.
1116. Then it is your opinion, I gather, that
1 109. Formerly the Vote was proposed by one the Ministry of Public Education should, when
of the trustees; I am not quite sure whether it constituted as you have suggested, be something
is now proposed by a trustee or by the Secretary like the ministry of Instruction Publique et Beaux
to the Treasury ?-I think by one of the trustees. Arts in France ? - Yes.
I think that Mr. Walpole always proposed it till 1117. And so far as Great Britain is concerned
he left the House of Commons, and that since he you would not qualify that at all ?-No, not
left the House Sir John Lubbock has proposed at all.
1118. Now let me go to Ireland ; do you
1110. You would wish that one of the Minis- think that the Education Department in White-
ters who preside over the Education Department hall should have any control over Irish Educa-
should propose that Vote ?-I think it would be tion ?-I do not think anybody in Whitehall
a great advantage that all educational institu- would covet such a control, but I think that
tions, museums, and galleries should be under Ireland would benefit by such a control.
one head.
1119. Let us take the Primary Education
1111. All that are the subject of Votes of first, would you put the Board of National Edu-
Parliainent ?-Yes.
cation in Dublin under the supreinacy of the
1112. Would you deal with the National Gal- Education Department in Whitehall?-1 see that
lery in the same way ?-Yes, certainly.
nearly every witness that has come before this
1113. I will give you an example, and I should Committee objects to that on religious grounds;
like to know how you would treat it. Last year but I do not see how those religious grounds apply.
we were asked to vote in Parliament a very large It would be quite possible to maintain the Board
expenditure in connection with the Ashburnham of Education in Ireland and for that Board to
Collection ; the British Museum Trustees ap- conduct its operations under the control of a
proached the Treasury directly, and it was Mr. Minister of Education in England, whether he
Gladstone's duty and my duty to specially deal was Protestant or Catholic, as the case might be.
with that application ; would you have had that As it is they are conducted under a Chief Secre-
application made to the Education Department? tary, who is burdened with many other things,
I think it should be made through the respon- No doubt the condition of Primary Education
sible Minister who moves the Votes for the Gal. in Ireland is deplorable and exercises a very im-
lery or the Museum, as the case may be.
portant influence upon Primary Education in
1114, And he, of course, would consult the England and Scotland. If you go to Glasgow,
Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Treasury to Edinburgh, to Liverpool, to any of our large
towns,
he
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
69
1 April 1884.]
Right Hon. A. J. MUNDELLA, M.P.
[Continued.
aspiega ucation
is that the recente arrangementie
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
towns, you find you have a large Irish immigra- far greater than the powers of any inferior board
tion of children, who often have been very much in this country, and those powers are by Statute?
neglected and are very far behind the English Yes, I am quite sure that whoever adminis-
children; children who can never be brought up ters Irish education must administer it very
to the attainments which you have a right to largely through the National Board; but I think
expect from such children.
that something should be done ; indeed I think it
i 120. There are two reasons which have been is very urgent that something should be done, to
assigned to us against placing the National Board improve the quality of Irish education. The
of Education in Dublin under a Minister in first step in the direction of compulsory educa-
London. One is that the systems are very tion, even if it is a very humble step, should be
different in respect to the financial arrangements; taken,
that whereas in Ireland practically almost the 1125. To put the question again in this way:
whole of the charge for national schools falls In Great Britain, there never has yet been
upon the Votes of Parliament, only a certain either a Lord President or a Vice President
proportion of that charge in England and Scot- who at the time was a Roman Catholic; do you
land falls upon the Votes of Parliament, and it not think that there would be considerable diffi-
is largely supplemented in England and Scotland culties if a Lord President ora Vice President who
by local revenues, by private charity, and by the was a Roman Catholic had charge of the Education
fees of the children, and that it would be im- Department ?- I am not aware that there would
possible to work two such different systems toge. be difficulty. The Lord President or the Vice
ther. What do you say to that objection ?---I President inust administer the Acts of Parlia-
should have thought that that was an argument ment in the spirit of those Acts, irrespective of
in favour of putting education in Ireland under his religious or his political opinions; and nothing
the control of an Education Minister, because I is more important than that the Minister of
think it is desiraable that Ireland should be in- Education for the time being, either of those
duced to pay some part of the expense of her Ministers, should forget both his politics and his
education. It would be a good thing, indeed, if religious predilections, and administer the Acts
a rate, ever so small, was levied in Ireland for impartially.
education. People would then take an interest 1126. On the other hand, do not you think
in it, take an interest in their schools, and they that there would be considerable difficulty now
would exercise local control.
if the real Minister of Education for Ireland as
1121. Then you would establish the authority well as of Great Britair was a Protestant sitting
of the Minister in London over Irish education, in Whitehall ?-My answer to that is, that the
rather in order to assimilate the Irish system to real Minister of Education for Ireland now is
the English, than to assimilate the English sys- a Protestant sitting in Whitehall. I know that
tem to the Irish ?-I do not think you could all questions relating to Irish education are
expect very large local contributions in Ireland answered by the Chief Secretary. I am not
for education ; but I think it would be a good pointing out that it is desirable for any Minister
thing if you obtained even very small local con- to have the control of Irish Education: I am
tributions, and brought the two systems some- speaking abstractedly; and my opinion is that
what into approximation.
it would be a good thing for Ireland, and for
1122. Could not that be done, and was not Irish education, if a Minister of Education was
that done to a certain extent by the Irish Govern- Minister for the United Kingdom.
ment?.-I am afraid that I am not sufficiently 1127. But speaking in the concrete, and not
acquainted with the history of Irish education to as an abstract question, do not you then foresee
answer that question. I have visited Ireland, very great difficulties ?- No doubt there would
and seen something of Irish schools, and I have be very great difficulties at the outset, but I do
generally found that the large proportion, 80 or not think there would be at all the difficulties.
90 per cent. of the cost has been borne by the that have been foreshadowed.
Exchequer.
1128. You do not attach much weight to
1123. Then the other objection is the religious either of those objections, and you would like to
one ; Ireland being to the extent of four-fifths of see in time discreetly introduced and carried out,
its population Roman Catholic, and England a Ministry of Education, Instruction Publique et
being in about the same proportion not Roman Beaux Arts, for the whole of the United King-
Catholic, it is alleged that it would be impossible dom?--I should.
to have one Minister in charge of the two sys 1 129. I will now come to the more delicate
tems without great difficulty resulting, because question. How would you constitute that
if he were a Roman Catholic, it would be very Ministry ; would you constitute it as it is con-
much resented in Great Britain, and if he were stituted now; or have you any suggestion to
a Protestant, it would lead to great difficulties in make to improve the present constitution ?-I
Ireland; what do you say to that objection ?-I would rather answer your questions than make
never kuew a Minister who was responsible for suggestions. I am at present the Vice President,
Irish education who was not a Protestant; the and I do not think I should like to suggest any-
Lord Lieutenant is always a Protestant, and I thing that might seem to magnify my own office.
think the Chief Secretary has always been a 1130. We have asked this question of former
Protestant.
Presidents and Vice Presidents; and we have
1124, Yes; but so far as we have had evidence rather encouraged them to express their indi-
up to the present time, the Chief Secretary can vidual opinions; but if you would rather answer
hardly be considered a Minister of Education; questions, I will put it in the form of a question?
the powers of the National Board in Dublin are - My own opinion is that all Vice Presidents
0.51.
I Ž
will
70
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
1.4pril 1884.]
Right Hon. A. J. MUNDELLA, M.P.
[Continued.
is the gromntion in the it is becomn see
cernenty to the colore, State Leducati
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
will tell you that there ought to be a Minister of and I think he always would be if he was Minister
Education. They are always on the best of of Education. I think the importance of the
terms with the Lord President, but still they office is the growing and increasingly growing
kżow, from the practical working of the Depart- interest in education in the country, and the
ment, that there ought to be one responsible increase in expenditure (for it is becoming a
Minister, and that that responsible Minister large spending Department, and I can see
should be the man who lives in the midst of nothing for it but a considerable growth of ex-
Education every day of his life, who is in re- penditure; automatically it will increase) will
lations with 3,000 School Boards, and all the necessitate that he should be in the Cabinet.
voluntary managers of the country; who, every 1142. It is the case, is it not, that Lord Bea-
moment of his official life, is in intimaće relation consfield proposed that the Minister of Education
with those who are administering the Education should be a Secretary of State -Yes.
of the country.
1143. And therefore, so far as the opinion of
1131. That is to say, at present there is at the the party to which we do not belong is con-
head of the Department, always a Cabinet cerned, that might be held to have been their
Minister, and he has always been a Peer, with voice on the question ?- That was their view at
one short exception ?-Yes.
the time; I do not know whether it is now.
1132. There is a second Minister, subordinate 1144. And you agree with it?-I do not say
in form to him, who is sometimes a Cabinet that he should necessarily be a Secretary of
Minister, and is always a Member of the House State, but that he should be the Minister of
of Commons ?-I think only once has a Vice Education, call him by what name you please,
President been a Cabinet Minister.
and that he should be in the same position with
1133. In Mr. Forster's time? --In Mr. Forster's respect to education as the President of the
time.
Board of Trade, or the President of the Local
1134. You would, as I understand, prefer to Government Board, or any other head of a
that the ordinary systern, like that of a Secretary department, occupies with reference to his de-
of State or the President of the Board of Trade, partment,
under which the head of the Department was 114.5. If he were in the Cabinet, and in the
the Minister of Education ?-Yes.
House of Commons, would his Under Secretary,
1135. Without laying it down as a matter of whatever his title might be, be best a peer? –
necessity that he should be a Member of the Certainly ; but I am not sure that there should
House of Commons, but practically being a necessarily be an Under Secretary. The Board
Member of the House of Commons ?-I think it of Trade is represented in the House of Lords,
would be found practically that he must be a not by an Under Secretary; there are other
Member of the House of Commons.
officers connected with the Government who may
1136. And that the second officer of the De- represent it. For instance, the Lord Privy Seal
partment should stand to him in the relation might represent the Education Department in
either of an Under-Secretary of Siate to a Sec- the House of Lords; or the Lord President
retary of State, or of the Secretary of the Board might still represent it, if he had time. I say if
of Trade to the President of the Board of Trade? had time, because both the Lord Presidents with
-Yes. .
whom I have had the honour of being associated,
1137. That is your opinion ?-Yes.
have been very hard-worked men indeed, and
1138. Do you see no advantages in the head- both of them, while taking great interest in edu-
ship of the Department being inseparably con- cation, have not had much time to give to it.
nected with so high a position as that of Presi- Lord Spencer, who was one of the hardest and
to educa of the any cope
I would rather be a Vice President with a Lord the time he could to it; but he was responsible
President in the Cabinet, than be Minister of for the whole of the Irish questions in the House
Education outside the Cabinet without any of Lords, besides his attendance at Cabinet meet-
representative in the Cabinet.
ings, and the administration of the Contagious
1139. Then you qualify what you said just Diseases (Animals) Act, and a number of other
now in answer to the question which you induced important functions which he had to discharge as
me to put to you, by the remark that you think Lord President. There is an impression, I know
the Minister of Education ought always to be in at least I have heard it—that the Lord Presi-
the Cabinet ?-I do. He would have a very dents have not much to do; that is not in
poor chance if he were not.
accordance with my experience of the Lord Pre-
1140. You know that your predecessor, agree sidents with whom I have been associated; there
ing with you as to the constitution of the Depart are no harder-worked men anywhere.
ment, has expressed the opinion that it is not 1146. The object of my question is this: as a
necessary that he should be in the Cabinet? general rule, if a Secretary of State is in the
I know he has; and that is the one point on House of Commons, the Under Secretary is a
which I entertain a different opinion from Lord peer; it is not without exception, but it is a
George Hamilton. I think it is most important general rule?-Yes.
that education should have some advocate in the _1147. It is also the practice in the Board of
Cabinet; if it had not, I am afraid that we should Trade for both the President and the Secretary
fare badly.
of the Board of Trade to be in the House of
1141. So that just as the Secretary of State, Commons ?-Yes.
though not necessarily a member of the Cabinet, 1148. Do you think that the second Parlia-
always is so, do you think the Minister of Educa- mentary officer in the Education Department
tion should always be in the Cabinet ?-Yes; should also be in the House of Commons, or
would
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISI RATION).
1 April 1884.]
Right Hon. A, J. MUNDELLA, M.P.
[Continiied.
ans that he might the Departe vice
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
would you leave that open ? --I think that the as I understand, rather consult them informally,
chief of the Department inight very well conduct then through the machinery of the Committee
the business in the House of Commons, although of Council, and leave the entire responsibility in
I am bound to say that the work of the Depart- name, as well as in fact, in the Minister ?
ment grows very rapidly ; it is becoming in- Yes.
creasingly heavy ; I am told so in the office by
the permanent officials; that every Vice Presi-
Sir Lyon Playfair.
dent has a very much harder time of it, and that 1161. You are aware that a Committee sat
I have had a very much harder time than any upon the same subject as we are now considering,
previous Vice President ever dreamt of; because seven years ago ?-. Yes,
as we get nearer filling up the supplies under the 1162. And that various Lord Presidents gave
English Act, the questions of supply beccme their opinion before that Committee, that the
more and more difficult, and more and more Lord President was the Minister of Education,
keenly contested. Then there is such a largely and that the Vice President was entirely subor-
increased interest in education; there are a vast dinate to him ?-I think that has been the opinion
number of bodies engaged now in it; and the of all Lord Presidents.
School Boards are composed of men who devote 1163. But the present Lord President modified
the better part of their lives to the work.
that by saying that he would rather say that the
1149. Then, as I gather, you would leave it Ministry of Education was in Commission be-
an open question whether the second Parlia- tween the Lord President and the Vice Presi-
mentary oflicer was a Peer or in the House of dent?-It was very good of him to say so; but
Commons ?-Yes.
in fact, the Lord President is the Chief of the
1150. Would you retain the Committee of the Department, and can overrule the Vice Presi-
Privy Council as a Committee for Educational dent if he pleases; what is more, he could give
questions?—There is no advantage, I think in any instructions that he might think fit with re-
doing so
spect to the administration of the Department;
1151. That Committee is more shadow than he might ask to do half the work of the Vice
substance ?-I have had very good service, I President, or if he pleased, to do it all.
have received great assistance, from the Scotch 1164. Then would you not rather say that the
Committee, but I am quite sure that the gentle Lord President is Minister de jure, and that the
men who form the Scotch Committee would Vice President is Minister de facto ? --That is
render me just the same assistance whether they practically the case.
formed the Scotch Committee or not.
1165. And that you have practically the work
1152. Let us take the English Committee of the Primary Education Department to attend
first; does it often meet?-No.
to ?—Certainly.
1153. Does it meet once a year, according to 1166. Now you stated that you consulted with
your experience ? - No.
the President on questions which were likely to
1154. When it does meet, does it do anything? come under discussion in Parliament; I want to
It hears what we have to say, and, perhaps, give you a specific case; have you consulted with
expresses an opinion or two; but after all the the Lord President on the important question
responsibility is on the Ministers. We have that is likely to come before the House of Com-
considered and worked any measures that we mons to-night?- The question with relation to
submit to them, and they defer to our opinion. the Code, do you mean?
1155. The English Committee, if I am not 1167. Yes? — Yes; I have stated the case to
mistaken, consists entirely of Cabinet Ministers ? the Lord President, and told him the line I in-
-Cabinet Ministers who do not come.
tend to take.
1156. The Scotch Committee contains gentle- 1168. That instance shows that you do prac-
men who are not Cabinet Ministers, though they tically consult with the Lord President on Par-.
are Privy Councillors ? —Yes.
liamentary questions of importance ?-Yes; and
1157. And the Scotch Committee is more of a I have also seen the Lord President with respect
reality than the English Committee ?-It is more to the motion on the Code that is to be moved
of a reality in this respect, that I have had niore in the House of Lords to-night, and I have stated
occasion to consult the Scotch Committee. I to him my views with respect to that motion.
have passed inore Scotch measures than English; 1169. If a Minister of Education had Cabinet
and two or three of the Scotch measures have rank, do not you think that there are a number
been measures of some importance, and I have of important educational questions at present
been very glad to avail myself of the assistance before the country that would by this time have
of the Members of the Scotch Committee in that been settled ?-I cannot say they would have
respect, and to obtain their support also in Par- been settled, but no doubt they would have been
liament, which is very useful.
considerably more advanced than they are.
1158. Then if you dissociated the Education 1170. You mentioned one, inspection of en-
Department altogether from the Privy Council, dowed schools, that would have been one, would
would you keep up any body analogous to the it not ?-Undoubtedly.
Scotch Committee ? -I think it is maintaining 1171. And perhaps the certificating of private
a fiction.
teachers might have been another, that would
1159. And if you brought Irish Education have come forward into public prominence ?-
under the Minister of Education in Whitehall, Decidedly.
would you give him an Irish Committee ? - No. 1172. And other important questions ?-Yes.
1160. Whatever may be the advantages of 1173. The good working of the present system
being able to consult your colleagues, you would, has been due to the fact, that generally the Lord
0.51.
I 4
President,
72
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
1 April 1884.7
Right Hon. A. J. MUNDELLA, M.P.
[Continued,
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
Sir Lyon Playfuir-continued.
President has had confidence in his Vice Presi- understood you that in bringing Irish Votes
dent?-Certainly.
under a Ministry of Education, you do not pro-
1174. Supposing the case (and such a case pose to dispense with the existing National Board
might arise) of great divergence of opinion be- at all ?- It would be very unwise I think to do so.
tween them, who would go to the wall ?-17 1189. There are a number of Irish Votes con-
would all depend upon the strength of the Vice nected with science and art now under the Vice
President. The Vice President administers the President ?- Yes.
Department, and if he knew his business, and 1190. Do not you think that one justification
discharged it to the satisfaction of the House of for placing Irish education under a Minister of
Commons and the public, the Lord President Education in W'hitehall would be that after 50
must go to the wall.
years of national education, there is still such a
1175. But would not the Lord President have lamentable dearth of education in Ireland ?--
a considerable pull, considering that he has got Yes.
hold of all the Cabinet, and that the Vice Presi- 1191. The figures which I gave the other day
dent is not in the Cabinet?-Certainly he would were supposed to be erroneous, but I repeat
have that advantage, but I have not thought on them again deliberately; I said then 10 per cent.,
that questioni
but I now say 41 per cent. ; are you aware that
1176. But such a case could possibly occur ? 41 per cent. of the whole population of Ireland
Yes.
above five years of age cannot read and write ? -
1177. We have seen cases of difference in other Yes, I have heard that estimate, or an estimate ap-
Ministries where the subordinate has been proximate to it again and again. I remember
obliged to resign ?-1 know that questions on that Mr. Neilson Hancock, a great authority on
which the Lord President and the Vice Presi- Irish statistics, rcad a paper upon Irish education
dent differed, have occasionally been carried to before the Statistical Society a few years ago,
the Cabinet, and been settled by the Cabinet. which gave very deplorable results indeed.
1178. You have spoken about the Science and 1192. But these are the figures of the Census,
Art Vote; I will mention one or two others and in one of the provinces, that of Connaught,
which have not been alluded to, and for which no more than half the whole, or exactly 3 per cent.
Ministry at present is responsible; there is the of population, caunot read and write ? - Yes.
National Gallery in England ? -Yes.
1193. Do you think that that is at all a satis-
1179. The National Gallery in Scotland ? factory result after 50 years of national edu-
Yes.
cation with a huge expenditure ?- Most un-
1180. The National Gallery in Ireland ? satisfactory. I was for more than 13 years a
director of a great Irish bank with nearly 100
1181. All of which receive Parliamentary aid, branches, chicfly in the south and west, and I
and yet there is no Ministry practically re- used to hear constantly, and see the evidence
sponsible for them ? - None. The Votes in those before me in fact, that a very large proportion of
cases are moved by the Secretary to the Trea- the bills of exchange signed by Irish farmers,
sury.
and the indorsements upon them, were signed
1182. Again, there are outlying Science Votes with a cross.
of considerable amount; for instance, to the 1194. And most Irish farmers would have
Royal Society of London ?--The Royal Society come in 50 years under the influence of Educa-
Vote was formerly connected with the Science tion ?--Certainly. There is nothing like it in
and Art Department, and there, I think, it ought Europe,
to remain; but the Treasury insisted upon taking 1195. Whilst, therefore, the Executive of Irish
it over, and they took it.
Education might be left under a National Board
1183. Then there is the Royal Society of in Dublin, you would make an Education Minister
Edinburgh; that is only a small Vote one of responsible to the public for the due administra-
3001. a year? Yes.
tion of those Votes ?-Certainly.
1184. And the Irish Academy in Dublin ?-
Yes.
Viscount Lymington.
1185. And several other Votes of that kind ? 1196. I suppose that by reducing the Irish
--Yes.
system into a general system of Education, and
1186. Which at the present moment are scat- having one Minister of Education for the three
tered, and are proposed by the Secretary to the countries, you would not necessarily and ipso facto
Treasury, who need not be supposed to have any imply the introduction of a system of compul-
intimate knowledge of their working. Do you sory education; or would you ?-Not necessarily,
50 year ture?-
years a
Yes.
one common Minister ?-I think they should. first steps towards a compulsory system of edu-
1187. Now if you gathered together, as you cation should be introduced in Ireland. You
have suggested, the Votes for the Universities, cannot look for any real Education in Ireland
the responsibility for the Public and Endowed until you have a compulsory systein.
Schools, the Votes for the National Galleries in 1197. A question was asked of Mr. Forster as
the three parts of the kingdom, and all the out to his relations with the National Board as Chief
lying Science Votes, should not the Minister of Secretary; and he said, “ He now, I believe,
Education in the House of Commons be the re- nominally has to answer any questions relating
sponsible Minister de jure as well as de facto in to Irish education.” In your opinion, supposing
regard to all those matters ?--I have no doubt you substituted for the Chief Secretary a Minister
of it.
of Education, would he be practically able to
1188. Now with regard to Ireland, I think I control the National Board any more effectively
than
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
73
1 April 1884.]
Right Hon. A. J. MUNDELLA, M.P.
[Continued.
land.
Viscount Lymington-continued.
Viscount Lymington—continued.
than is now done by the Chief Secretary?—Why 1209. And you would not give it larger
not?
powers ?-Certainly not.
1198. You would yive him more power, would
you?-Yes.
Mr. James Campbell.
1199. You would insist upon his being a 101
member of the National Board ?— Yes, the
1210. In the Department at present there are
two educational systems at least superintended,
National Board would be inore advisory in its
the English and Scotch ?--Yes.
character.
1200. Fifteen years ago it was contemplated
1211. You find no inconvenience from having
to make the Chief Secretary the President of
th Scotch education managed in the same office
the National Board ; and, as I understand, you
as is the English ?--Not in the least. It is an
would have the Minister of Education President
advantage I think both to Scotland and to Eng-
of that Board ?-Yes.
1212. At the same time the systems are con-
1201. Do you think, from your experience of
ducted under different Acts of Parliament ?-
Ireland, that there would be any feeling of undue
Yes.
centralization on the part of the Irish people,
1213. And you have a separate staff for con-
and that you were attempting to force upon
ducting Scotch business, have you not ?- We
Ireland an Euglish system ?-. That is entirely a
have not necessarily a separate staff, we have
matter of opinion which you are probably as
kept it separate in the Scotch Department.
well, or better able, to judge of than I am. I
1214. In what you said about Ireland there
think if the susceptibilities of the Irish people
was no idea, in your mind, I presume, of having
were duly consulted, if the differences between
as much control of Irish education as there is now
the two countries were properly considered in
of Scotch education ?-No; I think that you
any system, the Irish people would be glad to
would have to make considerable allowances for
see an improvement in their educational system.
the great difference caused by the state of edu-
1202. And you have no reason to believe that
cation in Ireland and the religion of the popula-
the Catholic population and the Catholic clery
tion, as compared with Scotland and England,
would have any very strong feeling against it
and that you could not assimilate it to the Eng-
upon religious grounds ?-Not if the system on
lish and Scotch systems.
which the education was conducted was one
1215. But I gather that it is your opinion that
which made due provision for Catholic instruction
even although Irish education is left under the
and due allowances for Catholic susceptibilities.
Irish National Board, an Education Minister
1203. It would, therefore, be practically a
might exercise a good influence upon Irish edu-
denominational system of education ?-It must
cation acting through that Board ? —No doubt.
be; indeed I think it ought to be. The Scotch
1216. And that that might be done without
system is strictly a Presbyteriàn system of edu-
shaking the confidence of the Irish people in their
cation, with the catechism taught in almost every
National Board in regard to education ?-On the
school in Scotland ; and I do not see why the
contrary I think it would strengthen their con-
Irish should not have their religious teaching, fidence in the Irish Board, if they say that the
just as well as the Scotch.
Irish Board was doing better work.
1204. I should like to put to you a few
1217. I gather that what you propose is not
questions with regard to the examination of some
direct interference with education in Ireland,
of the first grade schools. I think you stated
but an influence on it throagh the National
that you were in favour of the endowed schools
Board ?--An influence through the Board which
being subjected to an annual examination ?-
would result in legislation, undoubtedly. You
could not introduce anything in the way of a com-
1205. And that in regard to the first grade
pulsory system without legislation,
schools, they should at least be required to make
a report?-I think they should be required to
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
make a report. I hesitate about an examination,
but I feel sure that they also would be benefited 1218. I understood you to say, in answer to
by it.
Sir Lyon Playfair, that several important educa-
1206. Do you think it would be possible to in- tional questions might have been more advanced
stitute an examination by the University Board now if there had been a Minister for Education,
of the eight public schools ?-I think it should with a seat in the Cabinet ?-Yes.
be done through the Universities.
1219. Under the present system is not the
1207. Do you think it would be advisable that office represented in the Cabinet?-Yes.
such institutions as the Irish Museum, the Irish 1220. Then cannot the Lord President make
Academy, the National Portrait Gallery, things such representations in the Cabinet as are re-
which are purely Irish in character, should be quired by the office?--Yes, but the Lord Presi-
placed under the control of the National Board ? dent is engrossed with a great deal of other busi-
— The Museum, and the College of Science, and ness; he does not live in the midst of the educa-
some other Irish institutions, are already under tional work as the Vice President does; con-
the Science and Art Department, and report to sequently he does not feel the pressure so much.
us, and I am responsible to the House of Com- 1221. Is the whole time then of the Lord Presi-
mons for the Vote.
dentfully taken up by other than educational ques-
1208. But do you think it desirable that they tions ?-No, not the whole time; but I think it
should be placed under the Irish National Board? might very well be so, because, as I have stated
-The Irish National Board deals with nothing already, both the Lord Presidents I have had
but primary instruction.
the honour of being associated with have been
0.51.
very
Yes.
K
74
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
1 April 1884.]
Right Hon. A. J. MUNDELLA, M.P.
[Continued.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone-continued.
Viscount Lymington.
very hard-worked with other questions in addi- 1231. I think you said that Lord Spencer
tion to educational questions.
allowed you to select the new inspectors of
1222. Is not the fact that the block in the schools ? -No; I stated that there have been no
House of Commons has been the greatest new inspectors appointed, except one, since we
obstacle in the way of the passing of further have been in office; and that I asked Lord
educational measures ?-I have no doubt of it. Spencer not to appoint any more of that class of
I should have introduced other measures, and inspectors who were formerly appointed, but
should have pressed the Lord President to bring to appoint from the schoolmaster class men
them before the Cabinet, if I had seen any who had served as inspectors' assistants, who had
chance of making progress with business ; but had long experience, who had shown great fit-
some of the most needful reforms, some that I ness and capacity for the work, and who would
believe would not meet with very serious opposi- bring that experience to tell in the inspection of
tion in the House of Commons, cannot be schools.
touched on account of the block of business.
1232. I wanted to follow up my question by
1223. You said that the Minister for Educa- asking you whether the Vice President is not
tion would have a very poor chance if he were
more likely to have a special knowledge of the
not in the Cabinet; are not the main duties of
particular qualifications of that class of inspectors
the office of the Vice President, whom I take to
than a gentleman in the position of the Lord
be the de facto head, chiefly, though not alto President ?-The Vice President has the know-
gether, administrative ?-By no means.
ledge of the sort of men that should be promoted.
1224. Apart, I mean, from questions of such He knows the work that the men are doing; he
reforms as have been alluded to to-day?-He hears it from all parts of the country. If therc
has initiative work to do, as well as any other is a whisper against an inspector or an assistant,
Minister.
or sub-inspector, the Vice President knows it;
1225. But he has not to consider questions of the Lord President cannot know anything at all
what may be called Imperial policy, has he?- about it, except what he hears through the Vice
There are few questions, I think, that will be
ew questions. I think, that will be President and the Secretary.
fonnd of greater importance, and of greater diffi- 1233. And the Vice President would be more
culty in the future, than educational questions. naturally able to judge as to the merits of his
1226. But is there not some advantage in the teaching ?-Yes; and the inspectors would feel
de facto head of the Department not being in the
themselves more responsible to the administrative
Cabinet, and in his being dissociated in a great
head of the Department than they feel now. I
measure from the direct responsibility in Im-
cannot too strongly emphasise my opinion that
perial politics which must attach to all members
the good working of our system of Elementary
of the Cabinet?-I am afraid that his not being Education depends upon the character of the
in the Cabinet would not exempt him from being inspectors, and upon their good judgment and
regarded as a politician.
good sense.
1227. You spoke of the advantage of bringing
Chairman.
Irish education under the control of the Office in
Whitehall, and of the advantage of establishing 1234. Did I rightly understand you to say
even a small education rate in Ireland ; do you that the Education Ministers should be the
remember the Act of 1875 to enable the unions President of the National Board in Dublin,
in Ireland to rate themselves in aid of schools ? under such a system as you would advise ?-He
Yes.
might be the President of the Irish National
1228. You remember the result ?-It was an Board, or the Irish National Board might com-
enabling Act, I think.
municate all their decisions to him and through
1229. As a matter of fact, you are aware that him.
at the present tinie only 20 unions are now 1235. If he was the actual President and was
voluntarily contributing in aid of the schools ?- expected to attend any considerable proportion
Quite so.
of their meetings, would not there be physical
1230. Is not that due to the belief of the difficulties in the way?- Undoubtedly; but you
unions that under the present system the Irish could have a board of Education in Ireland an
Education Board is already too much under the advisary Board; and, you might hav
influence of English Ministers ?- That is a ques
Edinhurgh also, and I am not quite sure that it
tion I cannot answer. I am afraid it would have might not be some advantage to have one in
been nearly as bad with the English unions; if Edinburgh.
you had imposed no obligation upon the poor
1236. Retaining in other respects the existing
law guardians, but had simply given them constitution of the Education Department, except
enabling powers to contribute to education, I am
rers to contribute to education. Lam as to the headship ?—Yes.
afraid the vast majority of poor law guardians in 1237. You said that the system in Ireland
this country, too, would not have contributed a
cannot but be denominational ?-Yes.
farthing. It is only with the greatest possible 1238. Have not you in England and Scot-
difficulty now, that with an absolute statutory laud, with respect to the instruction of Roman
power, and an obligation upon them, we can Catholic children, practically got denominational
induce them to appoint school attendance officers schools ?—Certainly.
and pay them, or even to pay the fees of the poor 1239. Is that system agreeable to the clergy
children that cannot pay for themselves. That is of that depomination ?--I think so. They avail
the greatest difficulty we have in connection with themselves of it very largely. Since the passing
English education.
of the Act of 1870, I think the Roman Catholic
schools
dy too systein the of the
law, see powers tajority of not have com
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
75
1 April 1884.]
- Right Hon. A. J. MUNDELLA, M.P.
[Continued.
Chairman-continued.
Mr. James Campbell-continued.
schools have increased by some 200 or 300 per there might be advantage in having a coinmittee
cent.
in Edinburgh under the Education Department
1240. If I am not misinformed, they object to in Whitehall ?-I did not say a committee in
the advantages given to the Board Schools, but Edinburgh; but that there might be some ad-
they do not complain of the system in their own vantage in having a Board in Edinburgh, such
schools ?--They do not complain of the system as existed forinerly, to which Scotch business
in their own schools, but they object to schools might be referred; questions of ordinary routine
in which there is no definite religious instruction that might be conducted as formerly was the
given.
case, under the Department in London..
Mr. Jumes Campbell.
1242. You think there might be a Board in
1241. You stated, did you not, in answer to a Edinburgh acting under the Department ?-
question of the Chairman's, that you thought Certainly.
0.51.
62
76
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
Tuesday, 29th April 1884:
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Herbert.
Mr. Pell.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Sexton.
MR. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, IN THE CHAIR.
Mr. PATRICK CUMIN, called in; and Examined.
Chairman.
Chairman-continued.
1243. You are the present Secretary to the lately the patronage was entirely with the Lord
Education Department in London ?-Yes. President, I think ?- Entirely.
1244. You have held that office only for a few 1255. And by a recent decision, about a year
months ? --Oply for a few months.
old, the Lord President is now bound to consult
1245. Since Sir Francis Sandford retired ?- the Vice President ?-To consult; but his re-
Yes.
sponsibility remains as it was before.
1246. But you were Assistant Secretary for a 1256. So that all that is seen on the paper is
good many years ?-Yes, since 1870, when Mr. the signature or the initial of the Lord President?
Forster's Act passed.
-Yes. I suppose you did not include the
1247. Had you been in the Department Endowed Schools in your question when speaking
before?-Yes, only on temporary employment of the business of the Department.
1248. So that you have perfect knowledge of 1257. No, I was speaking purely of primary
the business of the office ?-Yes ; at least to a education, nothing else than the common schools;
certain degree.
then would you say that the Vice President is
1249. We have it in evidence that the business practically the Minister of Instruction for Eng-
is divided between the chiefs of the office in this land and Scotland, or that it is shared between
way, that almost the entire business, exclusive the Vice President and the President?-I should
of patronage, is passed on by the Secretary to say that it was shared, on this ground, that there
the Vice President, and the Vice President's have been very important principles on which
decision is sufficient, but that a certain propor- the two Ministers have differed, and in regard to
tion of the business goes up from him to the which the Lord President has had his decision
President, a proportion stated to us as about a acted upon.
hundredth part, exclusive of such large matters 1258. Since 1870, that is to say since you
as the revision of the Code; would that be a became Assistant Secretary, how often, speaking
fair account, in your opinion ?-Yes, if you put roughly, do you think that has happened?—I do
this proviso in, that all questions of principle not think it is a question so much of the number
would be referred, and are referred to the Lord of times as of the settling of large principles.
President. These questions of principle are no To give an instance: supposing there was a dis-
doubt reduced by time, but if any one arose now cussion as to whether the social position of a child
it would be referred to the Lord President. should disentitle that child from going into a
1250. Through the Vice President?--Through Public Elementary School, of course that is an
the Vice President,
enormously wide question; and if it were held by
1251. The Vice President is the judge as to one of the Ministers that that was a reason for
whether it should go up to the Lord President excluding a particular child, and the other -
or not?-Yes, he would be; but I think there Minister held the other way, that is what I should
has been no case where it was suggested by the call a vital principle; and that actually is a
Secretary or an Assistant Secretary in which it question that has been settled.
has not gone up.
1259. That is one question ; but I rather want
1252. Is your departmental custom in sending to gather from you how many questions do arise
papers to superior authority to mark on the paper where the President and the Vice President
the names of those to whom it is to go?-It differ, and where the President prevails as the
might be put in this way. The Secretary might head of the Department ; how often in a year,
make this minute: “I think this is a case which for instance ?-I do not know that you can even
might be referred to the Lord President.”
say that it arises once a year in regard to one of
1253. And is that the custom ?-Yes.
these great principles.
1254. With respect to the patronage, until 1260. Let me put it in this way : in the last
14 years
Lundu,
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
29 April 1884.]
Mr. CUMIN.
[Continued.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-- continued.
14 years since 1870, do you think you have known Sir Francis Sandford and myself, in the Lord
a dozen such cases ? -Not a dozen such cases President's room, where the first draft of the
where they have differed; but I have known cer- Code, or of the principles of the Code, was dis-
tainly a dozen cases where the opinion of the cussed; that was the beginning of it.
Lord President has been taken, and an important 1272. Then the Vice President had not pres
discussion has taken place between the two on viously taken any part in causing the different
the subject.
suggestions to be digested and sent out for in-
1261. Yes, but that does not quite answer my
quiry?-I think that step which I have just de-
question; I refer to cases where the Vice Pre-
scribed was before anything else, but I am not
sident has expressed an opinion, and the Lord
quite sure about that.
President has expressed the contrary opinion, and
1273. But that was the first point at which
the latter has prevailed; how often do you think
the Vice President came in? Of course I am
that that has occurred? - Not very often.
1262. Once a year? -No, I do not think once
speaking now of what is done formally. There
a year. The last case was in Lord Spencer's
are a great many consultations which are in-
formal; the things are discussed in various ways,
time.
1263. Since Lord Carlingford has been Lord
but not in a forinal way between the Lord Pre-
President there has not been such a case of
sident and the Vice President.
difference between him and Mr. Mundella ?- 1274. It could not be said, according to you,
No.
that the first discussions of a great revision of
1264. Then, going to the dealings with the the Code of that kind were under the charge of
Code, for instance, how is the Code annually the Vice President rather than that of the Lord
revised ? - Where there is a great change in the President?-I think it was combined; they con-
Code, such as took place in Lord Spencer's time, sulted each other.
it is the combined result of consultations between 1275. But it could not be said, according to
the Lord President and the Vice President. you, that that was a matter rather under the
1265. But would you tell us the previous steps.
charge of the Vice President than the Lord Pre-
We have had it in evidence that there is a sort
sident ?-I think that the Vice President sug-
of Committee who discuss the points in the Code?
gested originally the revising of the Code.
8
-Yes, that is a late practice. It was not so, I
1276. Suggested the revising ; then the in-
thirk, before what is called the Mundella Code.
quiries were made ?-Yes.
* 1277. Then when the suggestions were di-
1266. In the institution of this last Code, gested, they came before the Lord President
which you call the Mundella Code, what hap- and the Vice President jointly and they disa
pened; who drafted it ?-- T'he drafting was done
cussed them informally, and finally came to a
by an examiner, but the original questions and formal decision ? __Yes, and there was a Com-
suggestions were drawn up from various sources. mittee.
The suggestions were sent to the inspectors and
1278. The Committee which we have had de-
various other persons, and then there was a Com- scribed to us ; they had that Committee's assist-
ime, suresident President rather the under et revisie
were made; by the Vice the Vic
by ytrere m number
1
and then the Lord President, also, having settled 1279. Therefore, according to your view, there
with the Vice President the principles which
was no such supremacy in the discharge of the
were to be adopted or discussed, the Lord Presi- ordinary duties of the office on
ordinary duties of the office on the part of the
dent came and ultimately settled the actual form Lord President as possibly has been ser
it should take.
to us? — The great mass of the ordinary duties no
1267. Then do I rightly understand that it doubt is performed by the Vice President, but
works in this way: a number of suggestions I was speaking just now of this special case of a
were made; they were made to different people, new Code when it was entirely a new business
but mainly by the Vice President; or was it
altogether, and conducted in a way which was
that they were made to the Vice President ? -
quite novel; I mean that the novelty of the
They were sent to the office, to the Department. Code made it necessary to conduct the thing in a
1268. By inspectors ?-By inspectors and by way in which it had never been done before, be-
private persons and by societies, the various cause there had been no such case. Hitherto I
educational bodies.
believe it had always been settled by the Vice
1269. Then, as I understand you, they were President and the Secretary and the Lord Pre-
digested, and inquiries made about them by the sident, without any reference to any Committee
Vice President's direction ?-Yes, I understood or outside influence whatever. This was the
by the Department generally.
first time that outside criticisms were allowed to
1270. The answers to those inquiries having be brought to bear upon the construction of the
been receivel, a Committee, of which the Vice Code.
President was Chairman, sat to consider them ?- 1280. When you say "outside,” you mean
Yes, but there was a memorandum drawn up outside of the Lord President, the Vice Presi-
containing the result of all these inquiries, which dent, and the Secretary ? - And the inspectors.;
embodied the general principles which it was outside even of them.
thought that it might be expedient to adopt. 1281. Who, for instance ?-A great many
1271. My question points to this: at what educational bodies, of teachers, and persons in-
point in the discussion of a large question of that terested in education.
kind did the Vice President come in ?-I think 1282. Who make representations ?-Yes, who
the first thing was that there was a meeting of make representations.
the Lord President and the Vice President, and 1283. But they were not afterwards consulted
0.51.
K 3
in
78
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORL SELECT COMMITTEE
29 April 1884.]
Mr. CUMIN.
[Continued.
ده
Chairman-continued.
Chairman--continued.
in the formation of the Code, were they ?-They Vice President is in the strong power?- Then,
knew what the Code was proposed to be, and of course, it shows that he must be very strong
they then criticised it.
indeed, for I think Mr. Forster was the first who
1284. The draft of certain articles of the Code was in the Cabinet.
. was sent to them, and they criticised it!--Yes. 1294. Going back to the question of patronage,
1285. And when their answers were received you said, I think, that the Lord President really
the Lord President and the Vice President con- decided, though he was bound to consult with
sidered them ?-And finally settled them. the Vice President ?-1 understand so.
1286. Before I pass altogether to another 1295. Do you include in the patronage the
branch of the subject, let me ask you this : do higher promotions ?-Yes, the promotion from
you think that that system works well, judging an examiner to an assistant secretary, for in-
from your experience ?- Practically I do not feel stance.
any inconvenience.
1296. And the promotion to full inspector-
1287. As a matter of administration of the ships ?-Certainly ; even the promotion of an
Education Department, you see no difficulty in assistant to a sub-inspector.
having a dual headship ?-I do not think it is a 1297. And the promotion of a sub-inspector to
dual headship, because I, for instance, came in a full inspector ?—That has never been done.
under Lord Ripon, and my experience is that 1298. The responsibility for those promotions
the Vice President and the Lord President have is in the Lord President ?-I understand so.
always worked together, and there has been no
1299. Does the Lord President practically see
friction, as far as I know, between the two. I
anything of the business of the sub-inspectors ?
can fancy that if there was, as Lord George
He sees what a sub-inspector does, if it is neces-
Hamilton said, an intention to have friction, you
sary.
might have any amount of it; but practically
1300. But, as a matter of fact, does not the
that has not occurred.
Vice President see the business of the Depart-
1288. That is to say, although the headshipment from day to day?-_Yes.
is dual de facto, the inconveniences of dual
1301. And know the value of the different
government have not been felt ? -'That is so ;
officers ?- No doubt.
and in Mr. Forster's time one great advantage
was, that his room was close to Lord Ripon's, so
1302. Whereas the Lord President only sees
that, by going out of one room into the other,
one in a hundred cases ?-With regard to these
you could immediately be with the Lord Presi-
reports of the actual work of a sub-inspector,
dent; whereas now it is in a different building,
unless there is something peculiar and something
and that makes intercourse physically difficult.
goes wrong, the Vice President would not see
That, of course, is only a physical matter; but
them any more than the secretary would see
with regard to the mere working together, I
them in the ordinary cases. He would merely
confess I have never found any inconvenience in
know when a thing went wrong; but he would
the present system.
not know more than he learns from this report
1289. Would you have started the Depart-
that he gets from the sub-inspector's chief.
ment upon that plan if it had been your duty to
1303. When any question arises is it not very
start it?-No, I am not prepared to say that;
to prepared to say that common that one of the inspectors should come
but I should have started it with a strong head
up and personally explain the difficulties ?-Yes,
somewhere; I mean to say with a very strong
that is so when there is a necessity for it.
Minister, with somebody who was a real power 1304. Does he ever see the Lord President?
in the Government. I would say, whatever you --Yes, certainly. I will give an instance. Last
do, start it with some real power at the head. Session, I think it was, there was a case in which
Unless the system were controlled by some really a school board was set up at Willesden, and it
powerful Minister, I think the Department would was said that it was set up improperly, that is
be in a very questionable position.
to say that there was no deficiency of school ac-
1290. Then which is the strong power at the commodation. There was a motion in the House
head, the President or the Vice President?
of Lords upon the question, and the whole of the
I should say, for public purposes. the Cabinet business about that was conducted by Lord Car-
Minister. If the Vice President is in the Ca- lingford and by myself, and by Mr. Willis, who
binet then, of course, he would be the strong
was the inspector in charge. Interviews and
one.
discussions took place between the inspector and
1291. According to that, in Mr. Forster's
the Lord President, and the inspector was
time, the Vice President was in the Cabinet, and actually present in the House of Lords when
he was the strong power at the head; at present the discussion went on.
the President is in the Cabinet, and he is the 1305. That was an interview having special
strong power at the head?-He gives the strength reference to a pending debate in the House of
to the Department.
Lords ; but I was speaking of the ordinary busi-
1292. Is not that rather more accidental than ness of the office, when an inspector comes up to
anything else ?-No, I think not. I think that advise, not upon a question which is likely to be
the fact of the Minister being in the Cabinet a Parliamentary question, but upon an ordinary
gets attention paid to the position of the Depart- affair, which you have to decide ; is it likely that
ment that would not be paid to it if the Minister he will see the Lord President?—Let me take
was not there.
another case. As the Committee may be aware,
1293. When both are in the Cabinet, then the there are about 70 or 80 sites for schools every
to the power and is in them at th
year
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
79
29 April 1884.]
Mr. CUMIN.
[ Continued.
1
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
year in London taken by Provisional Order question. If it is a question of appointing an
Now everyone of these sites must be passed by inspector to examine the school, I think that
the Department; they are responsible for saying that is not a thing to be paid for out of the public
that it is a proper site, Therefore in every funds, but out of the charity.
single case there is an inquiry which is con- 1311. I was asking, not about the question of
ducted by an inspector. Now in case of doubt,
payment, but about knowledge that the educa-
these reports must be considered by the Lord
tional intentions of the scheme have been fulfilled.
President and the Vice President, and in cases
Whoever pays for it, do you think that the
where there was doubt, the inspector would
Education Department should be held responsible
actually see the Lord President; but the Lord
for satisfying themselves and the public that the
President sees his report and passes everyone
educational objects of the scheme have or have
of these sites, and in cases of doubt of course not been carried out?_But if on the one hand
he forms his own judgment. Now that is one of
carrying out the educational objects means that
the most important things. So, too, in the
the trustees are doing their duty according to
country, in regard to allthe school boards where
the scheme, or if on the other hand it merely
you take sites by Provisional Order. All these
means that there is a good master there, and
difficult questions would go before the Lord
that the organisation is good, those are two
President.
entirely different questions. “Carrying out the
1306. Is that a statutory obligation, that the
educational objects of the scheme ” seems to me
Lord President should sign those Orders or
rather vague. If it means that you are acting
should approve them in some way ?-I think it
up to the scheme which you are bound to carry
is statutory, because the Order says “ The Edu-
into effect, that is one thing. I do not know
cation Department,” ani inasmuch as not un- whe
whether you would call that educational or not,
frequently Committees are appointed in the
but that is not a function of the Educational
House of Lords, who call for evidence to ascer-
Department, I think.
tain whether there has been a proper investiga-
tion, I have never ventured to pass one of these
1312. I am sorry that I do not make myself
Orders without the authority of the Lord Pre-
clear. Parliament has adopted a certain machi-
sident.
nery by which the endowed schools which were
1307. With respect to the endowed schools in a very iemcient state have been reformed ;
business, the approval of the endowed school
I am not speaking of the business part of it at
schemes, I think, was one of the functions, practi- ai
all, but of their efficiency as teaching bodies; do
cally, of the Committee of Council on Education? you
you think that the Education Department should
-Yes.
have to satisfy itself whether the educational
1308. After the formalities have been com-
objects of the reform have or have not been
pleted and the schemes are in force, do you
fulfilled ?-I do not think that the Education
know anything of the result ?- Nothing.
Department ought to appoint additional in-
1309. Would it be a good thing that you spectors for the purpose simply of ascertainino
should know something of it?--There are two
the educational results of the endowment.
points. Is it intended to examine whether the 1313. Then, I suppose, that opinion would
scheme is carried into effect by the trustees, or govern your views with regard to bodies of
is it the question whether you are to examine still higher character, I mean public schools ?-
the scholars to ascertain the goodness of the Certainly.
school ; they are two entirely distinct ques- 1314. And the first grade of the endowed
tions.
schools ; you include the first grade of the
1310. Would you answer as to each of them, endowed schools with the other endowed schools ?
please ?-If it means that you are to ascertain -Yes, I think so.
whether the scheme, being law, is carried into
1315. Therefore, in that respect, you do not
effect according to the scheme, that seems to me
wish to see the functions of the Education
not to be a function for the Educational Depart-
Department extended ?- Wherever the public
ment at all; that is a function which used to be
money is voted as it is in the elementary
carried into effect by the visitor and the Court
schools, and if it were given to middle class
of Chancery, but now it is carried into effect, if
schools, then, I think, the Education Depart-
any case arises, by the Charity Commissioners,
ment ought to see that that money is properly
and that function I think ought not to be trans-
expended; but wherever the money is money
ferred to the Education Department. With
under a scheme, or money which is not voted
regard to the other question, whether you should
by Parliament, I mean by the central authority,
examine the school in order to ascertain whether
the school is a good school, I think that ought
there, I think, they ought not to inspect.
certainly to be done somehow, but that ought
1316. Then you do not look upon the revenues
of the funds of the charity, and of these endowed schools as public money ?--
not out of public funds at all. Consequently, in Yes, I do; but then I say there is an authority
all the schemes there is a provision that the which is quite sufficient to make the trustees do
examination of the scholars shall take place their duty.
in order to ascertain that the school is effi- 1317. The visitor, do you mean?— The Charity
cient. If the question is as to the appointment Commissioners.
of inspectors for the first time, whose duty it. 1318. Then do you think that the Charity
will be to ascertain that the scheme is carried Commissioners have got in their organisation
into effect, that I think is not a function of the the power of ascertaining the educational effi-
Education Department, because that is a legal ciency of schools ?-I think that they have the
0.51.
K 4
power,
Van
to be done out of the funds of the charity, ana
he appointing in
commissioners ascertaining lil that they hap
80
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
29 April 1884.]
Mr. CUMIN.
[Continued.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
would be sufficient for that purpose.
were made and failed, it would do a great deal of
1319. But you think it is quite within their harm.
competence? I think so.
1329. Both to the British schools and to the
1320. I do not know that it is necessary to Irish schools ?-Yes; it would occupy a great
ask you any questions about the Science and Art deal of the time of the Vice President, and I
Department? --I do not know about that; I suppose, in fact, his time would be occupied in
have never been connected with it.
the Irish discussions.
1321. Sir Francis Sandford gave us a great 1330. You have not found the same difficulty
deal of evidence on that branch, but the Assistant in respect to Scotland, have you ?--No, but I am
Secretary does not take any supervision of it? not clear that it was a good thing abolishing the
No.
Scotch Board. It seems to me that the local feel-
1322. It has also been suggested to us by ing as to the supply of schools, and so on, might
one or two eminent witnesses, that the Educa- have been better met, perhaps, if there had been a
tion Department should have a general survey, Scotch Board; but, at all events, it would give
not only over English and Scotch Primary Edu- more real power to the department to have a local
au
Mint of facke systems at any attemust ha
on that subject ?-Yes, I have a very strong 1331. What you mean by “the Scotch Board”
opinion with regard to it, because I was an is not the Scotch Committee which exists now,
Assistant Commissioner under Lord Powis's Com- but a Scotch Board doing its work in Edinburgh?
mission in Ireland; and I cannot conceive any -Yes; there was a local board in Edinburgh
reason why the Irish system should be brought some time ago, but it was abolished; and I think
under an English Minister. It seems to me that it was a considerable safeguard to the depart-
it would lead either to a continual conflict be- ment, because it was a kind of buffer between
tween the English Minister and the Irish Board the local authorities and the central department.
of Education; or it would lead to this, that the 1332. But whether you have a Scotch Board,
English Minister would be merely a registrar of as there used to be, or a Scotch Committee, as
the decrees of the Irish Board. But in any there is now, you find no difficulty in the joint
event it would grievously offend the sertiment, administration of the English and Scotch systems
if you like to call it by that name, of the Irish of education ?-No, because they are so much
people; and it would, according to my opinion, alike.
also lead to an immense deal of friction between 1333. They are governed, both financially and
the Irish system and the English and Scotch administratively, in the same way?- There is a
system.
great deal of difference in the education given;
1323. The religious difficulty, I gather in your it is a much higher idea of education that pre-
opinion, itself would be an insurmountable diffi- vails in Scotland than in England; but upon the
culty ?-I think so; but what I chiefly rely on whole there is no difficulty in the joint admini-
is the fact that you could not give an English stration.
Minister any kind of power unless you really, in
point of fact, cashiered the Irish Board.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
1324. The systems are so different and the 1334. I rather fancy that your ideas upon
distance is so great, that any attempt to supervise endowed schools are the same as those that have
the Irish Board from Whitehall must have that been expressed by other witnesses ; you mean
effect, in your opinion ?-I think so; an English that you would not have the Education Depart-
Minister would have no knowledge whatever of meut inspect their constitution, or the manner in
the actual facts, and he would be obliged to take which that constitution was carried out?-Yes.
them from the Irish Board. If he went with 1335. But would you refuse to inane
the Irish Board he would be no use, because he educational results should do that
would be doing the same thing as they did. If the scheme, which desires and directs to
he did not he must go to the wall, because the
examination shall take place; and I would have
Irish Board would be too strong for him. At the results of these examinations sent up for the
present, I understand the system works smoothly, purpose of ascertaining what the actual educa
and a good deal of friction has been got over, tional result of each sche
and the course suggested would simply revive
1336. In your ordinary plan of inspecting an
every kind of sentimental and other difficulty
elementary school, you do not examine into its
that you could have.
1325. In addition to the religious difficulty,
constitution, and report upon whether its denomi-
would there not be a great difficulty in bringing
national aspect is properly carried out, or its
secular aspect, or its Board aspect?-No.
about any assimilation of the financial arrange-
1337. But you do report upon the educational
ments of the schools in Great Britain and Ire-
results of that school ?- That is to ascertain that
land ?-I cannot understand how you are ever to
get the amount of contributions in Ireland from
the public money has been properly expended.
fees, or from rates, or from voluntary con- 1338. The endowed schools must be con-
tributions that you have in England.
sidered, must they not, as supported by public
1326. You are aware that there was an attempt money; otherwise Parliament would have no
once to obtain assistance from the rates for Irish right to interfere with them ?-Yes; but then
schools? -Yes.
they have the means of supplying this test, what-
1327. And it failed ?-I believe so.
ever it may be; it is a mere question of economy.
1328. Therefore you do not look upon that as If there was no objection from a financial point
a question within practical administrative possi- of view, of course I should have no objection to
prish Bogot hen the same bene If he sedt
ments of assimilation great difficulten,
add
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
81
29 April 1884.7
Mr. CUMIN.
[Continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
add to the expenditure of the public inoney in 1347. But do not you think that an inspection
doing this, but it seems to me unnecessary. ab extra is of enormous importance by enabling
1339. That is to say, that the schools them- one public body to compare its results with
selves should pass the expenses of inspection ?- another public body in a contiguous district or
Yes.
contiguous town, and see whether it is doing the
1340. And certain contributions must be levied best that can be done for the purpose ?-I quite
from them ?-Yes; in each that they should pay agree with that; but I do not see why that
the examination.
should not be done; if this governing body is
1341. But supposing that they do that (which any use, they ought to be able to appoint the
is a just thing to claim, I think), would not the examiner, and they would probably choose a man
inspection be better done by the Education in the habit of examining dozens of these schools;
Department than by the Charity Commission, therefore I think you would get what is wanted
who have nothing to do with the executive part without this centralisation.
of education ?-Usually it is done by the gover 1348. You would make it entirely local, and
nors or trustees of the school appointing an would say that it should have no connexion even
examiner to ascertain what the value of the with the Charity Coinmission ?-Not for the
education given in the school is.
examining of scholars. I would make the ex-
1342. But practically at the present moment aminer return every year the result of his ex-
I, who am very much interested in education, amination of the school.
never can ascertain in any way how these schemes 1349. What was the character of the Bill
which have been launched through the Charity which was proposed when Mr. Forster was
Commission and the Education Department are Vice President ?-He proposed a regular sys-
working; whether they are working well, whether tem of inspection, I think.
there has been a very large augmentation of 1350. With contributions from the schools to
scholars and so on; I have no means of ascertain- meet the expenses ?-Yes.
ing that ?-I should require every governing 1351. But that inspection was to be done by
body of a school charity to make a return, the Education Department, was it not ?-I
showing what they do and what number of think so, but I do not remember at this moment.
scholars they educate.
1352. With regard to patronage, would the
1343. And who is to apply the test of efficiency? Secretary go direct to the Lord President in the
That would be done, of course, by this exa- case of an appointinent to be made, without
miner, who would be examining the scholars consulting the Vice President at all ? --He would
periodically.
certainly go direct to the Lord President as the
1344. Would you allow the trustees of each formal step. He might of course mention the
little endowed school to appoint their own exa- thing to the Vice President in an informal way,
miner?-If the examiner whom they appointed but he would go direct to the Lord President,
was not a proper person, you might then in that certainly.
particular case insist upon having a proper exa- 1353. And now the Lord President, by recent
miner; but if they appointed a bad examiner the custom, consults the Vice President, so that in
people in the locality would no doubt find it out, that way he gets at his opinion ?-Yes. I think,
and object.
if I am not mistaken, that there was always a
1345. Then do you oppose altogether a general kind of private arrangement that it should be
public examination of the endowed schools ?- talked over, but I do not know.
I think that centralisation is an evil, a distinct 1354. However that may be, that exists now?
evil, and that the inspection, for instance, is so - That exists now, certainly.
in itself; I mean that if you could make it more 1355. I suppose you would say that the ex-
local it would be better.
ecutive work of the office, except patronage, is
1346. But formerly, when we left endowed practically done by the Vice President? --The
schools entirely to themselves, did they not executive daily work, no doubt, is done by the
become utterly degraded and unfit for the pur- Vice President, and the Lord President comes
poses for which they were founded ?-Yes, for in in cases where there is what you may call
this reason: The real merit of the Endowed doubt.
School Act I consider is this, that it enables you 1356. And in cases also of general principles,
to appoint a thoroughly good governing body. as the Code ?-Yes, in cases of general princi-
If you have not a thoroughly good governing ples. But in the endowed schools every single
body you have nothing. Now one great merit of scheme goes before the Lord President, and the
the Endowed Schools Act, I believe, is that in Lord President has settled them in cases which I
every one of the schemes you have three ele- could mention. For instance, in the case of
ments; you have some of the old trustees ap- Hulme which was a large endowment : in the
pointed, and then you have a popular element case of Birmingham, a most important endow-
obtained by election sitting upon this governing ment; in the case of St. Paul's in London, all
body, and these two appoint other persons. these cases were settled by the Lord President,
Either the popular element is no use, a view who had just as much to do with every detail of
which I cannot agree with, or if it is of the them as the Vice President. Birmingham, of
slightest use the people in the locality are repre- course, was one of the greatest cases in which
sented on that governing body, and they see that the abolition of free education in a large school
they get by the endowed school what they want; was carried into effect.
that will prevent, to a great extent, I believe, 1357. With regard to the present headship of
the abuses which the honourable Member alludes the Education Department, you say that you
to.
would scarcely call it a dual headship, because
0.51.
L
82
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
29. April 1884.]
Mr. CUMIN.
[Continued.
beably the net
deal of transfertion
and, ou
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued. .
Chairman--continued.
it is usually one headship with a consultative between them; I do not remember that; pro-
superior ?- They always go together; you bably there was or it would not have gone up to
have the benefit of two opinions. It is like a the Cabinet. Now take a matter in which there
court of appeal, as it were, if there is any doubt. has been a good deal of discussion; take the case
This very day, I think, there is a letter which is of all schools that are transferred to a School
rather important, which I ventured to suggest Board ; one very great question was this, if
might go to the Lord President; imagining as you transfer a school to a School Board, ought
I do that it may lead to difficulty and discussion, you to allow any money to be taken for that
I think it is a proper case in which to give notice transfer? If you do not allow any money to be
to the Lord President of what is going to take taken (as in the result, it was decided that we
place.
should not) that will probably save this country
1358. And do you still think it wise to make hundreds and thousands of pounds. The same
the Executive Minister, who has so much to do thing happened in Scotland. There was a
with moving the Votes of the House of Com- Bill there, the result of which, if it had passed
mons, and with defending them, the de facto in the form in which I think the Vice Presi-
Minister, but not the de jure Minister of Educa- dent agreed to it, would have been that an
tion ?-If I were the Vice President I should enormous sum of money would have gone to
prefer rather to have a Lord President, because ecclesiastical purposes, which, by the interference
I should then probably be able to get a very of the Lord President, was prevented.
good opinion upon very difficult cases. And
also, I have no doubt about this, that if I were
Sir Lyon Playfair.
a Vice President in the House of Commons,
especially now that the schoolmasters are a most
1363. Do you bring forward that as an argu-
formidable organisation and a great power, I
ment in favour of continuing a dual Ministry?
should feel that in the existence of the Lord I bring it forward simply as an illustration that
President I had some protection which I pro it is a very great advantage in great and im-
bably should not have if I stood alone. Then portant questions to have the opinion of a power-
again, if I was not in the Cabinet and had not ful Minister, and that Minister so powerful that
the same power as a Cabinet Minister, I should he can take it to the Cabinet and carry it.
feel that in any important change in the law, or 1364. I think you agreed, as I certainly would
in any important question which might give rise agree, that it would not do to start the Educa-
to discussion in Parliament, I should, by means tion Department on a new footing without the
of the Lord President, have the Government actual Minister being in the Cabinet?--Yes.
more certainly with me.
1365. Supposing that Minister had been in
1359. But you have not yet been a Vice Presi-
the Cabinet then, as he is not at present, would
dent, and the Vice Presidents who have given
not these important questions in all probability,
evidence before us have stated that the system
have been submitted to the Cabinet before they
is quite apomalous, and that only by the friendly
were decided ?- No doubt they would.
terms on which they stood with the Lord Presi-
dents has the system been enabled to work ?-
1366. You would have got quite as much ad-
But that I think is an essential element in vantage in one way as in the other, would you
having a Vice President and Lord President, not?-I was rather using these illustrations to
that they should be on friendly terms. I cannot show that sometimes you have what I should
understand that difficulty ; because if the Lord venture to submit, is a better opinion given by
President and the Vice President were not on
the Lord President than the Vice President; I
friendly terms, I take it that it would be very
mean that there have been cases where it strikes
awkward.
me a very serious evil would have happened if
1360. Who in that case would go to the wall; the Vice President had not been overruled by
would it be the de jure Minister or the de facto the Lord President.
Minister that would go to the wall ?-I think it 1367. In other words, the Lord President is
would depend upon the question under discussion. always selected as being a Cabinet Minister of
1361. Would it likely to be the Cabinet great experience and high rank, and the Vice
Minister, or the man not in the Cabinet ?- Take President is not always chosen from having
a particular case of a question that might arise. attained that position ?-But generally, the Vice
There have been various questions, very impor- President is very much interested in education,
tant questions, such as I refer to. For instance, and of course he has an especial knowledge of
there was a question that went to one Cabinet, the subject.
when boroughs were extended, and there was an
1368. And has to do almost all the work, but
attempt made in the House of Commons to
has not ministerial responsibility ?-Well, I
limit the School Board to the old borough, and
should have thought that he had ministerial
to exclude the added part from the School Board
responsibility.
district. That was a case where the question
1369. In the evidence of various witnesses
had to go to the Cabinet, and where it was
which has been given upon this subject before
decided by them.
Committees, the Vice Presidents deny their re-
Chairman.
sponsibility, and the Presidents assume it?-But
1362. Decided as between the President and practically, it seems to me that the Vice Presi-
the Vice President, do you mean ?-No, I do dent and the Lord President, as far as my ex-
not know that there was a difference of opinion perience goes, have always worked together.
1370. How
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
29 April 1884.]
Mr. CUMIN.
[Continued.
tion Department meeting this, but in "hem present
Mr. Herbert.
Mr. Campbell-continued.
1370. How often, since you have been in the schools in Scotland have arranged for their
office, has the Committee of Council on Educa- examination themselves hitherto ?-Yes.
tion been called together and consulted on any 1382. And that there is a general feeling that
question by the Vice President or the Lord that is not satisfactory?-I believe there is.
President ?-I have only been in my present 1383. There is a feeling that an examination
office three or four months, but in that time by Government Inspectors would be more satis-
there has been a meeting of the Scotch Educa- factory?.--But then I think they combine that
tion Department to settle certain important with the requirement to be paid out of the
principles; after that, I do not know when it will Treasury; I mean, they do not propose to allow
meet again.
the Education Department to nominate exaininers
1371. But you were Assistant Secretary since to be paid by the charity, but they say, We
should like an additional sum out of the Treasury,
1372. Can you give us any information with and then you may appoint the examiner.
regard to the meetings of the Committee of 1384. I think that you will find that that
Council on Education then?—No, I cannot; I refers to the higher class schools under School
had no cognisance of them.
Boards ?-I did not know that they had proposed
1373. Do you attach much value to the ex- to transfer to the Education Department the
istence of that Committee of Council ?-Sup- jurisdiction of appointing the examiners which
posing there was a Vice President alone, or a was given by the schemes.
Lord President alone, there must be some sort 1385. Do you remember the provisions of the
of consultative committee; for instance, where Education Act of 1878 on the subject ?-No; I
such a large sum of money is involved, I think it have not them in my memory at present.
is necessary to have the Chancellor of the Ex- 1386. Do you remember that there was au-
chequer consulted upon the Code. Then again, thority given to the Treasury in that Act to
where you have questions of industrial schools provide for examinations in the higher class schools
and Poor Law schools, and schools of various under School Boards ?-You allude to Section 19.
descriptions, you ought to have the head of each 1387. Do you remember that in the same Act
of these departments, or some one capable of there was authority given to appoint inspectors
being consulted in regard to any regulations for higher class schools that are not under School
about them.
Boards, provided these schools found the means
of paying them ?-Yes.
Mr. Campbell.
1388. And that these provisions have never
1374. On the subject of the examination of been put into operation?_That is so.
endowed schools, did you take any personal 1389. And that there is a certain amount of
interest in the Educational Endowments Act of dissatisfaction in Scotland in consequence ?-
last year for Scotland ? —Yes.
There is, no doubt.
1375. It was prepared in the Department ?- 1390. Does not that rather point to the pro-
It is very like the English Act.
posal you made being insufficient for the endowed
1376. You remember the provision there, that schools of England ? I have no doubt in the
all educational institutions reorganised by the world that it would be most popular to appoint
Commission, shall be inspected regularly and inspectors at the public expense in England,
reported upon to the Education Department ? provided they were paid for by the Treasury.
Yes.
1391. Do you not think that examination by
1377. And the expense of the examination is public inspectors, provided the inspection was
to be borne by the endowment?-Yes, by the paid for by the charities, would also be an ad-
endowment; that seems to me a very excellent vantage in England ? I think it would be a
way of solving the difficulty.
much better plan that a body like the University
1378. If the same provision was made with of Oxford or Cambridge should appoint instead of
regard to the endowed schools of England, concentrating it all in the Education Department.
would your difficulty as to the action of the De, 1392. You do not think it important that the
partment be got over?—There is no Charity Education Department should have to do with
Commission in Scotland. There is no body it?-I should prefer the other plan myself, but I
there to which the Governors could report, do not object to the Education Department ap-
except the Education Department; whereas in pointing."
England you have the Charity Commission who 1393. On the subject of Irish Education, I
get returns of all the money; and therefore I do not think you expressed an objection to having the
see any reason why they should not add the education of that country even reported upon
other point to that.
through the English Department?- Certainly; I
1379. But does not this system which is to be object to any interference of an English Minis-
adopted in Scotland, furnish a precedent for an ter with the Irish Board; it seems to me that it
arrangement of the same kind for England ?- would be fraught with every kind of difficulty
Yes; I do not see any objection to it.
and danger.
1380. If the difficulty of meeting the expenses
of the inspection was got over, then your
Mr. Sexton.
objection to having the Education Department 1394. The Chancellor of the Exchequer asked
make the inspection would be met ?-I should you some questions with regard to bringing the
prefer that the appointments should be made by Irish Board of Education under the jurisdiction
the governing body.
of an English Minister, and you said that you
1381. You are aware that the higher class disapproved of that proposal ?-Yes.
0.51.
1395. You
M
L 2
.84
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
29 April 1884.]
Mr. CUMIN.
[Continued.
Mr. Sexton-continued.
1395. You consider that the result would be,
either a state of continual conflict, or else that
the English Minister would simply register the
decrees of the Irish Board ?-Yes.
1396. Which of these two eventualities would
be more likely to occur, do you think? --That the
English Minister would register the decrees of
the Irish Board.
1397. Why?-Because he would find that if
he attempted to interfere or overrule the Irish
Board, his position would be so uncomfortable
that he could not go on.
1398. Do you think that the circumstance that
he would have to act with inferior knowledge of
Ireland, and at a distance from it, would compel
him to yield to the local authority?-I should
think so. I should think that he ought to yield;
that he could not possibly himself know enough
about it; and he would not have the papers, he
would not have the inspectors at hand, he would
know absolutely nothing about it.
1399. And you think there would be a period
of conflict probably, and that the Irish Board
would prove to have the greater power of
obstinacy? --And greater knowledge.
1400. And do you think that there is any
reason, in the interests of the public service, for
entertaining the proposal ?-I think exactly the
Mr. Sexton-continued.
opposite, namely, that there is great reason for
not entertaining it.
1401. Do you think the present administration
sufficient ?—That I would rather not go into,
unless some particular question were put; I do
not know that I could give a general answer,
1402. Do you consider that efficiency would
be served by the change?-No, I do not
1403. You consider the proposal, in fact, out-
side the region of discussion ?-I think so.
1404. And is your opinion shared by other
persons in positions like yourself?-I do not
know anybody who has been in Ireland and seen
the Irish schools, who supports the proposal to
give the Vice President or the Lord President,
or at all events the English Education Depart-
ment, control over the Irish National Board and
the Irish system of education.
1405. Do you know an official of your own
rank who, whether he has been in Ireland or not,
holds the opinion that the change suggested is a
desirable one?-No, I do not.
1406. Have you any means of knowing what
is the opinion of the Irish Board with regard to
the proposal. I suppose it is all adverse ? --Yes;
at least, I have not met with any of them in
favour of it.
The Right Honourable the Earl SPENCER, K.G. (attending by special permission of the House
of Lords); Examined.
Chairman.
Chairman-continued.
1407. I THINK before you became Lord Lieu- equal part with the Vice President, not as
tenant, you were for some time Lord President regards the primary education, but with regard
of the Council ?---Yes; for very nearly two years, to the administration of the Science and Art
from the time that Mr. Gladstone's Government Votes, with regard to the decisions on schemes
came in.
that come from the Charity Commissioners, with
1408. So that on the education question you regard to the museums at Edinburgh or the
have double information; both with respect to institutions in Dublin that are under the Coun-
England and Scotland, and with respect to the cil, in all those matters, I think, the Lord Pre-
share which the Irish Government takes in the sident has an important and an equal voice
National Education system of Ireland ?-I think with the Vice President. And then there is
I have.
also the important matter of patronage and pro-
1409. I will ask you a few questions as to motion which more directly comes under the
each ; the object of the appointment of the Com- Lord President; in fact, I may say directly
mittee is to consider how the ministerial respon- comes under him. He is really solely respon-
sibility under which the Votes for Education sible for that, though I think it is of the utmost
and so on are administered can be best secured; importance, and I believe it has always been the
we are not going into the merits of the different practice (certainly it was mine) that in all
systems, but into the ministerial responsibility cases of appointment, the Lord President should
for their administration ; first, then, you having consult the Vice President, who is in daily com-
been Lord President, did you consider yourself munication with all the Inspectors, and, of course,
as the head of the Education Department for from his position in the House of Commons,
Great Britain ?- De jure, certainly.
comes in contact with all the Members of Par-
1410. Did you de facto consider yourself so ? — liament who know what is going on in their dis-
No doubt the Vice President from his position tricts, and have continual references made to them
in the House of Commons, and from practice, by people connected with School Boards and
carries out all the daily work connected with others as to Inspectors and Sub-inspectors and
education. At the same time the Lord President the management of schools.
is consulted, and should be consulted on all 141). When you say that the Lord President
matters of difficulty or importance, on all matters was cognisant of the important matters connected
of new principles, and probably on all matters with the administration, exclusive of patronage,
which might be the subject of public discussion of primary education, do you mean that he was
In a great many of the branches of business that responsihle for the whole, but that it rested with
come before the Lord President and the Vice the Vice President to consider what special sub-
President, the Lord President, I think, takes an jects he should bring before him ?-Certainly; I
think
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
85
29 April 1884.]
The Right Hon. Earl SPENCER, K.G.
[Continued.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
think the Lord President is responsible for the and such great results have been achieved under
whole, but I should consider the Vice President it that I think there is no ground for altering it.
as equally responsible.
1421. You do not think that the enormous
1412. Then, in your opinion, there is in that importance of the Vice President being respon-
respect a duality ? — There is to a certain extent, sible for such large votes and so vast an admini-
no doubt.
stration renders it expedient that he should be a
1413. There are really two heads of the De- Cabinet Minister?-No, not if the Lord Presi-
partment who consult and act together? - There
dent is in the Cabinet.
are, though the Lord President, of course, in a
1422. You do not think, then, that any great
case of difference of opinion, is the chief.
advantage would be gained by the state of things
1414. And if there is a serious difference of
Cabinet?-I have no experience of that; I do
opinion, does the Lord President decide it, or
not know that there was any particular advan-
does he take it to the Cabinet?--Happily we
tage in it.
have not had a great many. Of course, between
1423. I pass from that to the Irish question.
two men there must be differences of opinion;
Do you think that there would be any advantage
but I do not recollect ever having a difference of
in bringing the Irish educational business into
opinion with Mr. Mundella (with whom I always
ay in the Privy Council, making the Board of National
acted with great pleasure and satisfaction), and
Education subordinate to the Lord President?
taking that difference of opinion to the Cabinet.
I should be very much opposed, indeed, to that.
1415. If it had been on an important point, 1424. Would it, in your opinion, create great
should you have felt that his equality with you religious difficulty ?-I think there would be the
was so nearly complete that you would have religious difficulty, and there would be a great
asked the Cabinet for a decision ?-I think very many other difficulties. The two systems are
likely I would.
not identical; they are much more diversified
1416. So that just as in respect to patronage than the Scotch and English systems for instance,
it is now the rule that the Lord President should and I think that that fact alone would make it
consult the Vice President, so in respect to the exceedingly difficult for the same Minister to
ordinary administration of the office the Lord adıninister the two systems. Then there is the
President would not overrule the Vice President, religious difficulty, which is of course stronger
except in small matters ?-I could not exactly in Ireland than it is in England or Scotland;
say that I can remember some important and there is, further, the national feeling. I
matters in which I differed from Mr. Mundella, think that there would be a very strong objection
and we did not refer them to the Cabinet; he indeed to the National Board if that were kept
was perfectly content to take my decision. I being put under an English Minister of Educa-
remember one or two cases, but I do not know tion. Of course one method (to which I should
that it is right to quote them.
have a still stronger objection) would be the
1417. Then, on the whole, the idea of a dual doing away with the National Board ; but even
headship is probably the nearest approach to the if the National Board were kept, and put under
truth ?- It is an anomalous position ; it is one a Minister of Education for England and Scot-
that you cannot actually defend in the abstract; land, I think there would be a great objection
and if you were starting a new educational ma- to that on the part of the Irish people.
chine for the whole country, you would not 1425. The three Churches in Ireland are
arrange it as it is; but I believe that, on the whole, working now fairly in harmony with the National
it works exceedingly well, and without any Board, are they not?-So it appears. I think
friction.
the system is accepted. It is not exactly the
1418. We have had it from gentlemen who system that they would like, but I think it works
have been Vice Presidents that, in their opinion, harmoniously and fairly all over the country.
it would be better that there should be a real 1426. The points of difference, which were
head of the department in the House of Com- rather acute some time ago, you do not hear so
mons, as a rule a Cabinet Minister, with proba- much of now?---We do not hear so much of
bly some assistant (I say “probably” because them now.
they are not quite agreed on the subject) who 1427. If the National Board were put under
might be in the House of Lords. If you had to an English Minister of Education, you would
begin all over again, would you recommend such probably hear much more of them ?-I will give
a system ?-I do not think I should like to ex- you an example: there has been lately a question
clude altogether the possiblity of the chief being about the museum in Dublin; the museum in
in the House of Lords, though I can see the Dublin is under the Science and Art Department.
natural disadvantages there are in the chief, if Though I am quite aware that Dublin Castle is
you started it afresh, not being in the House of not a very popular institution, I have reason to
Commons.
know that people would like it better in Dublin
1419. Would you go so far as to say that the that the questions should be settled there than
case of the Admiralty might apply, where gene- that they should come over to England. I am
rally the First Lord is in the House of Commons, not of that view myself, because I think that there
though not always, and the Secretary to the Ad are great advantages in having the Science and
miralty is also in the House of Commons ?.-- Art Department under one control for various
Yes.
reasons, but I only give you that as an instance.
1420. But things being as they are, would you I may be wrong, but my impression is that in
leave them alone ? -Yes; I do not see that there that case the Irish people would prefer to be able
is any great disadvantage in the present system to come to Dublin Castle to have questions of
0.51.
that
L
3
86
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
29 April 1884..]
The Right Hon. Earl SPENCER, K.G.
[Continued
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
that sort decided than have to refer to a Minister Bill before us we, I think in that Bill, introduced
or a Committee sitting in London; and I think some clause for that purpose. Whether the
the same thing with even greater force, would be inspection should be from the Education Office
felt with regard to the National Board,
in England, or from the Charity Commission who
1428. Sir Patrick Keenan in his evidence originate these schemes, or from an independent
stated, that althongh the National Board settled body, is a very difficult question. I should much
practically all the details of administration, the prefer myself to have some independent body.
Irish Government had a good deal to do with the Mr. Cumin, I think, said he wished it to be done
larger questions, particularly any changes in the by a University. I should very much prefer, if
ordinary system which had to be carried out ?- possible, not to concentrate those into the Edu-
That is quite true. Whenever any large ques- cation Office : but I am almost afraid that when
tion comes forward, the Irish Government puts you come to look into the subject, you would
itself into communication with the National find that there is no other body to do it, and
Board, and has a marked influence on its pro- that eventually, if it is to be done, it would be
ceedings. I could quote a great many cases of done by the Education Department, probably,
that sort. There was one very noted case when better than the Charity Commission.
I was in Ireland before, which created a great 1434. The question of the expense of addi-
deal of excitement, which was the case of Father tional inspectors is not a material one in your
O'Keefe of the Callan schools. In that case, view, I suppose ? - Answering you particularly,
though it had been settled originally by the as Chancellor of the Exchequer, I should say
National Board, the matter was brought before that we do not want to throw too much on the
Parliament, and the Irish Government had a Exchequer; I think it would be possible to
great deal to say to it. There are other cases throw that expense on the reformed institutions.
which I could quote in which one Government 1435. But what I meant was that the question
(and this perhaps makes it more marked) has of the expense to the charity of such additional
proposed a plan, say, for training the teachers, inspection, is not a inatter of any importance in
and the next Government has rejected it. That your view ? -No, I should think not.
was the case when Mr. Chichester Fortescue, 1436. There is another question also, which
now Lord Carlingford, was in office in Lord · has not been alluded to to-day, on which I should
Kimberley's time. He proposed, and the National like your opinion: Do you think that institu-
Board agreed to, a system for the training of tions like the British Museum and the National
teachers. When the Conservative Government Gallery should be put under the Education De-
came in, Lord Naas (Lord Mayo afterwards) did partment for the purpose of the Votes being
not accept the proposal, and though it had been moved in Parliament by the Minister, and for
agreed upon by the National Board, after the purpose of their recommendations going
consultation with the then Government, the through a Minister to the Treasury ? That is a
next Government would not hear of it, and they very difficult question, but I should be disposed
gave it up. That is an instance to show you to answer it in the affirmative. Of course, the
what a marked influence the Irish Government British Museum Trustees are a very important
or the Government may have on the National and influential body, and there is a great advan-
Board, though the National Board is never in- tage in having such a body administering that
terfered with practically in the ordinary adminis- large national institution; but I do see very
tration.
considerable difficulties that have occurred owing
1429. So that the Secretary for Ireland, under to the various museums and collections that
the superintendence of the Lord Lieutenant, belong to the nation being under separate and
really acts in larger matters as Minister of Edu- independent management. Just to illustrate this
cation ?-In larger matters, he does.
point, at the South Kensington Museum, of
1430. Leaving the ordinary administration to course, the first, the principal object is, that it
the National Board ? -- Yes.
should be an industrial museum ; but you must
1431. And you think that the system works branch out into all kinds of works of art, and for
well ?-I think that on the whole that system the purpose of education you go beyond ordinary
works well; most decidedly.
examples that a student who is going into trade
1432. You would be sorry to see it disturbed ? or manufacture requires for his study, and there-
-Yes, I should be sorry to see it disturbed. fore you get among the articles there some of the
1433. I pass from that to another point, that is highest works of art in the kingdom. There is a
the limited supervision over reformed endowed Vote for that purpose for purchasing many of
schools of the Education Department in Eng- those articles ; there is also a Vote for the
land. We have had a great deal of evidence on British Museum to purchase ; and there is a
that subject which, until to-day, pointed to the difficulty from the two running counter to each
expediency of the Committee of Council on other in a sort of competition sometimes at a sale,
Education being responsible for ascertaining for Now I think that there would be a great advan-
Parliament the educational efficiency of the tage in having some one person responsible, or
endowed schools, certainly of the endowed some plan whereby the collections should be
schools below the first grade. Do you agree arranged and completed on a system; and one
with that view, or with what Mr. Cumin said 10- collection would be very much strengthened by
day?-I think it is of great importance that there the addition of works from the other institution;
should be some system of inspection for these and you would also prevent the possibility of
endowed schools after they have been reformed their interfering with each other at sales. No
We certainly thought so when I was at the doubt we often used to try and prevent any-
office, and when we had the Scotch Endowments thing like competition at a sale, and come to an
: understanding
(D
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
87
29 April 1884.]
The Right Hon. Earl SPENCER, K.G.
[Continued.
in the country
give you a
Chairman-continued.
Sir Lyon Playfuir-continued.
understanding with the Trustees if there were account of his interest in agriculture, and not on
articles that we both wanted ; but the very fact account of his interest in education ?- That is
that there are articles identical in the two insti- possible but not likely.
tutions shows that the arrangement of the national 1440. Are not these interests, therefore, which
collections is not quite as satisfactory as it should are both very big interests, sometimes likely to
be. I well know what difficulties there are in get the ascendancy the one over the other?
the matter, because each institution receives No, I do not think that they would.
legacies, and very often a person who leaves a 1441. You think that the Minister who has a
legacy makes it a condition that either the knowledge of the cattle on a thousand hills, is
British Museum shall have the possession of likely to have an equal knowledge of the in-
this collection or that South Kensington shall terests of the people in regard to education ?-
have the possession of it; and therefore there Not always; but I think it would be the busi-
are, no doubt, difficulties in the matter; but I ness of the Prime Minister in selecting the Lord
think it would be of great importance that some President, if he were connected with education,
arrangement should be made, departmentally, to to see that he had a kuowledge of education and
get over these difficulties; and it certainly seems an interest in it.
to me that it would be rather desirable that the 1442. I think, from your evidence, you would
Votes should come through the Minister who has continue the present state of things because it
to look after the large Science and Art Museums exists, and because it has not shown any great
friction in working, but that theoretically you
1437. I will give you another illustration would not defend it?-I do not think you can
Last year there was a question whether we absolutely defend it, theoretically,
should purchase, at a very large expense, the
Ashburnham Collection. There was between
Mr. Sexton.
the British Museum and the Treasury (who are
not supposed to know anything about art) no 1443. I understand you to say that you agree
Minister whatever. Would it, in your opinion, with the previous witness as to the undesirability
have been advantageous if the Minister who is of bringing the Irish Board of National Educa-
responsible for such large art collections had tion under the control of an English Minister of
been able to advise the Treasury, instead of our Education ?-Certainly.
having to act directly with the Trustees; I am 1444. You heard the reasons stated, which
speaking now of works of art ?-I think most were departmental reasons, that there would be
decidedly it would have been an advantage, because daily friction between the two ?-Yes.
the Lord President and the Vice-President 1445. I suppose you would agree that depart-
have both of them gained considerable experience mental reasons are inferior in importance to those
in all those matters, from having to manage the that concern the public interest directly ? - Yes.
South Kensington Museum and the Edinburgh 1446. An additional reason which you stated
and Dublin Museums. Might I add one thing was the reason of the national feeling. I under-
about the British Museum? There is another stood you to mean that the Irish people generally
point which is very important, which is the would prefer their affairs to be managed in Dub-
circulation of collections of art throughout the lin rather than in London ?-Yes.
country. I attach imipense importance to that, 1447. You said that Dublin Castle was not a
in order to give the different local centres, where very popular institution, but you believed that
they have museums, the benefit of the very best the people would rather go to the Castle to re-
works the country possesses. Now, the British present their views upon public affairs than come
Museum has a great many works of that sort, to London?-I did.
which they are able to lend for that purpose. 1448. You also spoke about the religious diffi-
We have come to some sort of an agreement for culty; how would you define that ? — There is
engravings belonging to the British Museuru the difficulty as to the management of the
being so circulated; but that is an instance schools, as to the managers being men in whom
where one management would be of great im- the people have confidence; and there would be,
portance both for Ireland and for the rest of the I imagine, questions as to grants and accounts,
country.
in which the religious difficulty would come up.
It is rather difficult to define it absolutely.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
1449. Then we may take it that there are two
1438, Could you conceive of an instance of a great difficulties besides the departmental ones,
President, not like yourself interested in educa- namely, the national and the religious; but we
tion, but one who might be appointed chiefly for may take it, without going further into the mat-
his interest in agriculture and cattle, not working ter, that you regard the scheme as one not de-
very harmoniously with the Vice President as serving of consideration ?-Yes.
an education Minister ?-I think it possible, but 1450. You have said that you would have still
I think it would be the fault of the Prime stronger objection with doing away with the
Minister who arranged the Government if he National Board ?-Yes.
put two men together who would not work har- 1451. I should like to ask you whether you
moniously.
consider the constitution of that Board satisfac-
1439. At the present moment the agricultural tory ?-I think that it works on the whole in a
mind is excited about diseases of cattle, and if satisfactory manner. It has been constituted as
there was a vacancy the pressure of the agricul- it is now for a great many years, on very strict
tural interest might get the nomination of the lines, I think, of equality between the Roman
Lord President for a particular Minister, on Catholics and the Protestants ; and I think on
0,51.
L 4
.
the
88
. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
29 April 1884.]
The Right Hon. Earl SPENCER, K.G.
[Continued.
Mr. Sexton--continued.
Mr. Sexton--continued.
the whole I have not heard lately any serious the two great reasons alleged by yourself, the
objections to it, and it works, I think, well. religious one and the national one, you hold that
1452. Can you say how the Commissioners of the great principle of Ireland's management of
which it is composed are appointed ?-I think, if its affairs should be applied to this matter of
I recollect rightly, the Lord Lieutenant nomi- Irish education ?-I think it would be a great
nates them, subject to that condition, that he misfortune to put Irish education under a
will not appoint a Protestant to a Roman Catho. Minister in England,
lic vacancy, or a Roman Catholic to a Protestant
vacancy.
Chairman.
• 1453. The vacancy must be filled up by a
person of the same creed, you mean?-Yes.
1461. Is there any other point that you would
1454. Is it the fact that a large number of like to bring before us?—There is one point I
judges and creat officials are placed upon that should like to add as an example of what the
Board ?-Yes, at present.
Lord President does. I should like to take the
1455. Do you not consider than it might not
example of the revised Code. That was a very
be open for consideration whether a board more important matter, one of the most important
largely composed of independent men, persons
matters in the Department that has occurred of
not engaged in the service of the State, might
recent years; it was one where no doubt the
give wider popular satisfaction ?-It is a matter
Vice President took a most leading part; he
that ought always to be considered.
knew the subject very well, and worked very
1456. I think you said that the Irish Govern-
hard; he presided over the first Committee
ment has a marked influence, that is, when it
which drew out all the details. But on that
chooses to exert its influence, over the Board of point, I think the Lord President is bound to
National Education ?---Yes.
take a very leading part in settling all the prin-
1457. May I ask you whether you approve of
ciples. As a matter of fact, I did discuss and
the policy of the National Board in regard to
settle with the Vice President and with all the
convent schools, wliether you think it advances
Members of the Department, all the principles
the public interests ?--I do not quite know. on which it went. I presided myself over the
whether I ought to enter on any particular matter
Committee of selected Inspectors and Heads of
of that nature.
Departments that settled the principles of it, and
1458. I suppose you are aware that 50,000 also I received all the very important deputations
girls are being taught by nuns belonging to the myself which came about it. That is an instance
convents ?-Yes, I am quite aware of that, and
of cases in which I think the Lord President
ought to come in, and where a second opinion is
am not sure that I ought to give my own indi very important and of great assistance to the
vidual opinion upon it. It is a question that is Vice President if they work together. Then I
now under consideration, otherwise I should have should like to say one word about patronage.
no objection to state my opinion.
An idea seems to prevail that since Lord Car-
1459. I gather from your evidence that the lingford has been in office there has been a change
National Board might at all events be more with regard to patronage and with regard to
largely composed of non-official persons ?-I
promotion. I am not aware that any change
think that that is a matter that always must be has taken place. My belief is that in those
considered. Whenever any appointment does matters I consulted the Vice President; unfor-
rest in the hands of the Government and the Lord tunately I missed him this morning, and had
Lieutenant, I think it is always his duty to con not an opportunity of talking to him on the
sider whether he can get outside men, who are matter, but my belief is (and I have refreshed
not officially connected, to fill the appointment. my memory at the office) that, in the very few
Very often judges are taken for the National appointments I made, I consulted him and heard
Board, as the men who are best instructed and his views, and weighed them most carefully, both
best educated, and who will fill the position best; with reference to the two Inspectors I appointed
but I quite agree with the honourable Member one for Welsh education and one for Scotland,
that the Government ought to consider how to and with reference to the promotions in the office,
make the body, if it has not got the popular and the original appointments of Sub-Inspectors ;
support, more popular, and how to have on the and my belief is that the Lord President is bound,
Board persons really interested in Education in in such cases, to consult the Vice President, and
Ireland in whom the people have confidence. that that was done when I was there, and that
1460. And finally, not only for the depart. there was no change in that respect when Lord
mental reasons alleged by Mr. Cumin, but for Carlingford took office.
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
89
Tuesday, 6th May 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT :
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Herbert.
Viscount Lymington.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Sexton.
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, IN THE CHAIR.
The Right Hon. GEORGE 0. TREVELYAN (a Member of the House); Examined.
Chairman,
Chairman-continued.
1462. You are Chief Secretary to the Lord point of view, may we consider that the Irish
Lieutenant?-Yes.
Government act as the Ministers of Education
1463. We have had some evidence about the in Ireland ?-Yes, certainly, I should regard my-
responsibility for the Votes for Education and self as Minister of Education for Ireland.
Science in Ireland ; may I ask you whether the 1471. Does that extend to more than educa-
operations of the Board of National Education tion proper. The museums and scientific de-
come much under the view of the Irish Govern- Dartments in Ireland, are they under the Irish.
ment?-Yes, when any change of policy, small Government?_No.
or great, takes place that is in any way con-
1472. They are either under the Treasury or
nected with expenditure, it invariably comes
under the attention of the Irish Government.
under the English Education Department?-Yes,
Matters connected with discipline do not come
our relation to that class of questions is a some-
before the Irish Governinent for the most part
what anomalous relation which we hold with re-
gard to several matters in Ireland, that is to say,
unless special attention is called to them in Par-
the nominal responsibility does not rest with us,
liament.
1464. Or, I suppose, is likely to be called to
but, being in Ireland and on the spot, Irish
them in Parliament? - Well, I should go further
people who are interested in these questions
come to us as if we were responsible for them.
and say, that in matters connected with discipline
the Board of Education act without reference to
1473. And both the Treasury and the Edu-
the Irish Government.
cation Department consult you as a rule, do
1465. But if any change in the rules or the they not, before making any change?-Yes.
system is contemplated then they place the 1474. Now, two suggestions have been made :
matter before you ?-Yes, invariably.
one that the English Education Department,
1466. So that one may put it in this way: the Committee of the Privy Council for Educa-
that you look upon the Board of National Edu- tion in Whitehall, should have a general super-
cation as the executive for carrying out the sys- intendence over Irish education; and the other
tem of education in force, but that should any in the opposite direction; that the Irish Govern-
modification of the system be proposed, then it ment should take the charge of the Science and
rests with the Government to approve or not? Art Departments, which now are under the
Yes, that exactly describes the state of things; English Education Department, or the Treasury
and I should supplement the answer by saying here. Have you any opinion on either of those
that the Board of National Education are always suggestions ?- Yes. With regard to the second
extremely ready to consider any suggestion of and smaller maiter, I am of opinion that the
the Irish Government with regard to changes of present state of things should not be altered. It
system.
would be very much to the disadvantage of
1467. That is to say, that the Irish Govern Ireland, owing to the peculiar character of the
ment sometimes takes the initiative in changes ? subject, if she had a separate Department for
-Yes.
Science and Art. I understand art a good deal
1468. And you consult the Board before going better than I understand science, and on that
any further ? - Yes.
point I have an opinion as strong as any opinion
1469. Do you conceive that you can order a that I hold on any subject whatever. During
change over their heads, or would you hesitate the last 15 years, I think it is not too much to
to do that?-I should say that during my expe say that the price of objects of art has gone up
rience, which has been a happy one, the relations 400 per cent. in many departments, and the pro-
between the Irish Government and the Board of posal which was recently made before the Lord
National Education have been those of trusted Lieutenant, of Ireland having a separate Grant
colleagues who are aiming at the same object; for objects of art, and not being affiliated to
and that, aiming at the same object, we have South Kensington, would, in my opinion, end in
hitherto always been able to arrive at some com- her having 10 museums of art that would be
mon course of action which satisfied us both. worth the name of a collection at all. The close
1470. But, looking at it from a Parliamentary relation that now exists will always encourage
0.51.
M
posite be the charge of are understurg
esent state ery much to liar character of for
the
90
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
6 May 1884.]
Right Hon. G. O. TREVELYAN, M.P.
[Continued.
to havine and distamiento
the make su should look te of the
T
ntribution Englandcal Triskeliool-pencentri
Chairman--continued.
Chairman--continued.
the department at South Kensington to lend (I do not want to speak argumentatively) I
freely to Ireland ;. but I cannot for a moment should say that the tendency is in the other
imagine that these loans would be made freely if direction.
the departments were separated. Then, again, 1476. Then on the whole you would leave
there are some di partments of human life which matters both as to the supervision of Education
may be said to come within the general head of and as to the Departmental arrangements for
administration, and others that are too technical; Science and Art in Ireland as they are ? — Yes,
and science and art appear to me to belong to the I would.
latter class; and since the having too many
Sir Lyon Playfuir.
questions to master, which is the real difficulty
of those connected with the Irish Government, 1477. To whom should Parliament look for
would be immensely increased if science and art the initiative in regard to Irisl Education. I
were added to them, I am very strongly of will take such a question as whether compulsory
opinion that the present system should be pre- Education should be established in Ireland or
serveil. With regard to the great question of not; should we look to the initiative of the
education, I think that the clange which I am Minister or the initiative of the National Board
told has been suggested, of placing the education of Education in Ireland ?- To the initiativs of the
of Ireland in the hands of the Central Depart- Minister as a member of the Government.
ment in London, would involve questions of the 1478. And the Minister would be responsible
most enormous magnitude. I should be almost for the introduction or non-introduction of such
unwilling to say outright whether, theoretically, a system ?-Yes, he would.
I considered it advisable or not, but I believe it 1479. Als being the official head of the National
to be altogether impracticable. The Eoglish and Board of Education ?-I am not aware whether
the Irish systems, in respects which are well that relation has been absolutely defined. A
known to the members of the Committee, are ab- Minister who is the Parliamentary representative
solutely dissimilar. I could name several which of the Department, and who has practically to ask
are all familiar to the Committee : the existence Parliament for every penny that is voted, has
in Ireland of building grants, the enormously undoubtedly an enormous influence in the
large contribution from the Exchequer in Ireland Department. I should be unwilling to state
as compared to England, and the extremely whether I considered that the Irish Secretary
meagre amount of the local Irish contributions was the head of that Department.
of all sorts, whether you take school-pence or 1480. But to whom are ve to look for the
rates, or what are ordinarily called local contri- improvement of Irish education generally, in
butions. Then there is the entire difference of connection with the question that you spoke of
system ; in England the managers being made just now, with regard to religion, supposing that
responsible for the expenditure of the school, the census of 1881 tells us that 46 per cent., or,
and for the payment of the masters; and in to speak accurately, 45.9 per cent. of the Roman
Ireland the State dealing directly with the Catholics of Ireland above five years of age cannot
masters. The question of pensions to the read and write, to whom are we to look for
masters I regard as perhaps a minor ques- supplying such an appalling deficiency in educa-
tion; and, again, I do not consider the ques- tion ?-To the Minister.
tion of compulsory education as one which would 1481. But practically the Irish Secretary is
be vital, when we consider the matter of com- engaged, is he not, with so many political duties
bining the two countries under one administra that he is of all Ministers the least able to attend
tion; but the three first points that I have to such an important subiect as education ?-T
named are points in which the Irish system am told that there have been times in the
entirely differs from the English. The effect of administration of Ireland, when the Irish Secre-
transferring the administration to London would, tary could give the cream of his time and atteň-
I take it, be that the two systems would tend to tion to education. I would not go further than
be assimilated. Now, I think it would be ab- to say that I consider that the Irish Secretary is
solutely deplorable if the English and Scotch able to feel as confident about the management
system were assimilated to the Irish; and to of the Education Department as about any
assimilate the Irish system to the English and Department that is under him. Undoubtedly
Scotch system is a matter which would require the Irish Secretary has an immense diversity of
an extremely bold Minister of Education, and work, and, speaking personally, I should be only
which, to speak quite frankly, I believe to be too glad to hand over any department of Irish
absolutely impracticable.
business that stood outside the general policy of
1475. You have not touched upon the religious the Government in Ireland to an English
point; do you think that tliere is any objection Minister; but I have to consider this question,
on that score?-Yes; the tendencies in the two not only with regard to the Education Depart-
countries at this present moment are in opposite ment, but with regard to other Departments, and
directions. If you take a period of half a cen I always have come to the same conclusion, that,
tury in Ireland (and I suppose you might fairly while on the one hand it would be a very great
take the same period in England) for good or for relief to the work of the Irish Secretary to hand
evil, the tendency in Ireland is virtually in the over a Department, and while the business of
direction of denominational education, which that Depar!ınent would have a great deal more
appears to be the sort of education which the time given to it by the central Minister in
majority of the Irish people and the Irish repre- London, on the other hand the disadvantage to
sentatives on the whole prefer; and in England the State in other respects would probably be so
Ireland.
The wd as Pelot conside which it
tion and, abogara? "estion directes;
binivita), whulsory eddo not contamino, to
e it, be that dministration to L. The effect on
great
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
gi
6 May 1884.]
Right Hon. G. 0. TREVELYAN, M.P.
Continued.
yourself, and for Ireland ? Yetilked about the
Eden tand later on Lorean Liehat you
: Sir Lyon Playfair--continued.
Sir Lyon Plnyfuir-continued.
great that the Irish Secretary may consider that a great deal was done in the interval under the
any sacrifice that he niay make is very well Lord Lieutenant who succeeded him. The point
bestowed. The difficulties of communicating therefore resolves itself into this, in my mind :
Irish feeling to London, on certain points, Would an English Minister of Education be
appear to me to be quite enormous. And again likely to find inore opportunities for bringing
questions connected with education have so forward the measure, or measures, which are
very large a bearing upon the gencral state of necessary in order to improve and suppleinent
content and discontent in the country, that the Irish education, than the Irish Secretary. I
Irish Government, which is responsible for the think the point resolves itself into that. .
general condition of the country, would be willing 1486. I think there seems to be a common
to make almost any sacrifice in regard to labour,
rifice in regard to labour, agreement that you could not bring Irish educa-
in order to keep it in its own hands.
tion under the Scotch and English system ; that
1482. Do not you think that we could bring
that is impossible ; but what I want to ascertain
at all events the Board into more immediate
from you is whether more sharp Ministerial re-
contact with Parliament, to explain to Parlia-
sponsibility might not exist between the Irish
ment very singular anomalies in Irislı education.
Secretary and the National Board than exists at
Take now the highest educated county in Ire-
the present moment?-No, that I do not think.
land, which is Dublin; there are only 23 per
I think that the inconveniences of the present
cent. of the population of that county that state of things come only from the Irish Secre-
cannot read and write, while of the whole
tary having too much to do; but I am likewise
population 41 per cent. are in this condition.
almost inclined to think that that results rather
Now that being an anomaly, of a National
in his having a painful sense of being over-driven,
system, do not you think that there should
and not being able to give the amount of atten-
be a sharper Ministerial responsibility to ex- tion that he would willingly give to the most
plain and do away with such anomalies. At
interesting of all his functions, than in any serious
the present moment you say that in changes of
drawback to the public advantage.
principle you are consulted, but in executive
cutive 1487. And you think that in a period of non-
facts, do not you think that there should be a
a political excitement he might have time to do so ??
close Ministerial responsibility ?.-I think there
is that responsibility ; I do not think that that is
Mr. Herbert.
inconsistent with what I have said before.
1483. Then do you think that it has worked 1438. You said just now that you considered
well, seeing that there can be such immense yourself, and do now consider yourself Minister
difference between different counties, or even of Education for Ireland ?--Yes.
take different provinces if you like. In the
1489. And later on you talked about the
whole of Ireland only 41 per cent. of the popula- changes introduced by the Lord Lieutenant.
tion cannot read and write ; but in Connaught 53 Now, I suppose, you really meant that you
per cent cannot read and write. Now the would be acting as a sort of Under Minister of
Ministerial responsibility cannot act sharply, Education, the Lord Lieutenant being the
can it, where you find such great diversities? Minister?-I suppose to speak of the Lord
Now we come to a rather argumentative question. Lieutenant is irregular. Everything that is
I should say that one great reason for the back- done is done by the whole Government, and I
ward state of Irish education, not by any means named Lord Spencer's name rather as one would
the greatest, but one great reason, has been the name the name of a king, in order to mark a
defective training of the teachers. I suppose chronological period. I am the representative in
that for 15 years past the Irish Minister has been Parliament of the Board ; but all the business re-
anxious to correct that defect in what, as far as lating to Irish education would be done in exactly
I can gather, a succession of Irish Ministers con the same proportion by Lord Spencer and myself
ceived to be the only way in which it could be as any other business in any other Department
corrected; and the reason why that change was in Ireland.
not carried out was, I presume, political and 1490. Then, with regard to this Ministerial
Parliamentary. As soon as an opportunity ap- responsibility which we have been talking of,
peared to show itself, in which there were not do you think it would fall upon yourself and
these political and Parliamentary obstacles, the upon Lord Spencer equally ?-Yes, I should say
minister proceeded to carry it out eagerly.
that our relations with the Board of Education,
1484. And do you think that within itself the as far as they are divided between ourselves,
present system, notwithstanding that more than were precisely the same as these with regard to
fifty years of national education has prevailed in every other Irish Department. I am the spokes-
Ireland, may in time meet the educational man in the House of Commons; and in all cases
demands of the United Kingdom as regards I own that I consider him as having a final and
Ireland, I will not say the demands of Ireland ? authoritative voice in case of difference.
-I do think so. I do not pretend to conceal 1491. Then all the estimates for Parliamentary
my own predilections in favour of a system such Votes are submitted by the National Board to
as, say, the Scotch and the English system, and rou first of all ?__Yes.
above all what I regard to be the tendencies of " 1492. And by you, I suppose, to the Lord
the Scotch and the English system; but I think Lieutenanti
that the main defects of the Irish system are such
as can be corrected by legislation.
Mr. James Campbell.
1485. And are being so ?-And are being so. 1493. How are the Grants for Irish Educa-
Something has been donc since Lord Spencer tion brought under the consideration of the
has been in office this time; a greal deal more House of Commons at present ?- Through the
was done the last time that he was in office, and Estimates.
0.51,
M 2
1494. Is
Lorse to speaerything
ant is by the whole Gorther as one would
and I
92
ÚINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
6 May 1884.]
Right Hon. G. O. TREVELYAN, M.P.
[continued.
Mr. James Campbell—continued.
Viscount Lymington, continued.
1491. Is there any statement made to the and the Lord Lieutenant; that is to say the
House of the condition and progress of educa- Chief Secretary having to undertake the votes in
tion in Ireland at the time when these Estimates the House of Commons, what happens in the
are brought forward ?-Sometimes there is not event of a difference between him and the Lord
The Education Estimate is only too apt to come Lieutenant ?--Fortunately during the two years
on very late in the Session, at a time when some that I have been in Ireland, we have never, in
Members who are most interested in those the long run, had a difference on any question
questions have left Parliament. altogether. If whatever, and if I should have to say a word
I might throw out a suggestion, which I think about the Irish Government in general with
is connected with the question, I only wish with regard to that, I fancy that while, theoretically,
all my heart that we had a day for moving the everything that is done in Ireland is done by the
Irish Estimates just as they move the Army and whole administration, practically it is done
Navy Estimates; I think it would be extremely by a small Cabinet consisting of the Lord
conducive to economy and good administration. Lieutenant and the Chief Secretary, under
1495. As to English and Scottish Education we general supervision from the Cabinet; and any
have an annual statement made to Parliament by difference of opinion which arises between them
the Vice-President ?-Yes.
has to be composed, as it always has, between
1496. Which is looked forwarded to with a public men who continue to act together. The
considerable degree of interest ?—Yes.
Lord Lieutenant I always regard, as I say, as
1497. There is, as I understand you, no similar having the final and authoritative voice in case of
statement made with regard to Irish education ? difference.
No; it is not one of the anniversary days of 1501. I suppose it depends pretty much upon
the House of Commons, like the Army and Navy whether the Lord Lieutenant or the Chief
Estimates, or like the English Educational Secretary is in the Cabinet ?—No, I do not think
Estimates.
that that makes any difference at all really.
1498. Is it not unfortunate that the House of 1502. Sir Lyon Playfair put some questions
Commons and the country have not the same to you as regards the beneficial action of a sys-
opportunity of considering the Irish Education tem of compulsory education in Ireland ; do you
Estimates as they have of considering the English think that any system of compulsory education
and Scotch ?-I think it is a very unfortunate thing might be adopted in Ireland, modified ? ---Yes,
that a day should not be found for a statement I do.
and discussion of the Irish Education Estimates. 9503. Can you say whether you consider that
1499. As a matter of fact the condition of that would be the only way by which the Minis-
Elementary Education in Ireland does not come terial responsibility could be rendered more close;
before the House of Commons in a distinct if you were to emphasize and render more close
vay ?-No; but I should only say with regard that Ministerial responsibility, would it not imply
to that, that the House of Commons has the a movenient in the direction of compulsory edu-
advantage of having the question brought before cation ?-I do not think that any change in the
it on Tuesdays and Fridays, and likewise in the relation of the Ministry to the Board of Educa-
shape of Private Members' Bills on Wednesdays, tion would do anything either to hasten or to re-
pretty frequently, so that if Members who are tard a great operation like that of instituting
interested in Irish Education habitually attended compulsory education. I think for that purpose
on those occasions, I am inclined to think Irish the present Ministerial power and responsibility
Education would be debated quite as fully as is quite as effective as it can be made by any
English and Scotch. For instance, we had, I change.
should think, 11 or 12 hours spent over it in the
week before last on the Tuesday and the
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Wednesday. The form which the debates on
1504. The Chief Secretary is not ex officio on
Irish Education almost invariably take, are pro-
posals from Irish Members for an extension of
the Board of National Education, is he ?- No.
the present system, and for larger expenditure 1505. Then, strictly speaking, while you re-
under the present system; and on those occasions, present the Department in Parliament, you de-
as a rule, no Members take part in the debate, rive your authority from the fact that you are
except Irish Members and ihe Irish Secretary Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, who is
ex officio on the Board of National Education ?-
Sir Lyon Playfair.
I should be very sorry to define whence I de-
1499*. Do you include me in this remark? rived my responsibility. I should be inclined to
No, you form a brilliant exception.
derive it from the fact that I have first to approve
Viscount Lymington.
of a policy which would require expenditure, and
to sanction the proposal of that expenditure to
1500. What is the official relation with regard the Treasury, and that I afterwards should have
to Irish Education between the Chief Secretary to defend that policy in Parliament.
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
:
6 May 1884.
The Right Hon. Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACII, Bart. (a Member of the House); Examined.
Chairman.
Chairman-continued.
1506. You were for some years, I think, Secre- My predecessor, Lord Hartington, had been
tary to the Lord Lieutenant ?-I was Irish Secre- responsible for a very important change in the
tary from 1874 to 1878.
system of Irish Primary Education, by agreeing
1507. During that time I think you took a to give results' fees to the teachers, and he in
great interest in the working of the Irish educa- return for that obtained from the managers a
tion system ?-Yes. I had, perhaps, more time certain permanence in the position of the teachers
to devote to it than some of my successors. which had not heretofore existed. The Irish
1508. Those days were more quiet, and, as we Members in 1874 were not satisfied with what had
have heard froin Mr. Trevelyan, he would very been done in improving the position of the
much like to have the time which fortunately teachers, and the matter was brought before the
you had ?Yes.
House of Commons, and I undertook to look
1509. Did you consider yourself for Irish pri- into it. In the autumn of 1874 I did look into it,
mary education the Minister responsible to Par- and I quite made up my mind that the position
liament?.--Certainly.
of the teachers required to be improved, but that
1510. In form you were the Secretary to the on the other hand part of the cost of that im-
Lord Lieutenant, but in practice the educational provement ought to be locally provided; and in
questions were dealt witli by you?-Yes.
the second place that the teachers should, if
1511. The Estimates were submitted to you, possible, be made more efficient. A compar-
and any changes which were proposed were either atively small proportion of the teachers in the
brought before you by the National Board or actual service of the Education Board were at
were initiated by you ?-Yes, my attention would that time trained, and I believe that at present
be specially directed to any changes rather than the proportion is not much improved. I ad-
to the Estimates if they did not propose changes; dressed a letter to the National Board asking
and, of course, if any change in the Estimates them their opinion upon those points in the
was proposed, I should probably, in fact I did matter, to which they replied. The matter be-
frequently, confer with Sir Patrick Keenan as to came public to a certain extent, and I found that
the necessity for it before submitting the Esti- any proposal to endeavour to secure better
mates to the Treasury.
training to the teachers by altering the system
1512. I suppose the details of the estimate would meet with such opposition at that time
which came from the National Board went to that I was unable to make it. So I addressed
your subordinates in the first instance ?-Yes. myself to the other part of the difficulty, and in
1513. And unless they called your attention
VOUS attention 1875 I proposed to Parliament that the scale
to something very marked you would not inter-
of results' fees which had been up to that time
fere in those details ?-No; but of course it
paid to the teachers should be doubled, on
would be their duty to call my attention to any-
condition that an additional sum equal to one-
thing that ivas marked.
half of the results' fees so doubled, was paid to
1514. When there was anything of a marked
the teachers by the Boards of Guardians of the
character you dealt with it, summoning Sir
Unions in which their schools were situated.
Patrick Keenan, or taking such advice as you
That was the Contributory Act of 1875. I was
thought desirable ? –Yes.
obliged to make it voluntary; it was really the
first attempt that was made, so far as I know, to
1515. There were also matters, were there not, obtain local contributions of the kind in Ireland
relating to reforms in the Primary Educational
towards education, and it would have been im-
system, in which you took a considerable part,
part, possible to have passed in that Se sion a compul-
irrespective of what came from the Board ?-
sory Act. That Act has very frequently been
Matters that were brought before Parliament, spoken of as having failed. I do not think it did
do you mean?
fail. Of course, I never supposed that every Union
1516, I was alluding particularly to a subject
in Ireland would act under the provisions of that
on which we have had some evidence, the local
voluntary Act; but in the first year, in 1875, I
contributions by the Unions to Educational ex- think 70 out of the 163 Unions did so. Since
penditure which have been mentioned here as
that no doubt the number has very considerably
analogous to the contributions to Board Schools
decreased. If the Committee would permit me,
in Great Britain. That matter, I think, specially I should like to state what the result of that Act
was dealt with by you, was it not?-Yes, I was
has been, because although the number of Unions
responsible for the Act of 1875. If the Com-
contributing under it has decreased, and is now
mittee would desire it, I should be very glad to
as small as 20 out of the 163, yet the result has
give them the history of that Act.
been to increase very considerably the total
1517. I think we should be rather glad to amount of local contributions towards Irish
know the story of it; it was not gone into in education. In fact, according to the last report
detail by others, and we should like to have it of the National Board, the sum now contributed
from you not as a question of policy, but as a towards Irish education from local sources is
question of administration and operation ?-My just double what it was in 1874, before that Act
attention was originally drawn to that matter by was introduced. In 1874 the total sum consti-
debates in Parliament in the Session of 1874, the tuted was only 73,0001. ; in 1882 it was 146,0001.,
first Session during which I was Irish Secretary just double. And the reason of that was this :
0.51.
M 3
that
94
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
6 May 1884.]
Right Hon. Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH, Bart., M.P.
Continued.
.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
that when it was ascertained that the number of ment here. Do you think that a good arrange-
contributory Unicns was decreasing and would ment ?-I do not think that an Irish witness
probably come to as small a number as at present would tell you that it had worked very success-
contribute, an alteration of the rules of the fully. I can remember when I was Irish
Treasury on the subject was made, by which Secretary there was a question before the Go-
local contributions from any source were taken verpment as to the foundation of a Dublin
as equivalent to the rate contributed by the Museum, a question which I am afraid is not
Unions in obtaining for the teachers the benefit yet finally settled; and I took a very active part
of the additional results' fees; and the result of in that matter, as representing the Irish Govern-
that has been this: that although only 20 Unions in ment, in consultation with the Privy Council
Ireland contribute under that Act, yet out of here, so much so, that in certain negotiations
7,600 schools in Ireland there are only 400 in which passed between the Government and the
which the teachers do not receive the full results' Royal Dublin Society as to the transfer of their
fees from one source or another, and there are collections and matters of tliat sort, and the
only, I think, between 70 and 100 schools in future arrangements to be made, although the
which the teachers do not receive a portion of Vice-President of the Council of the day was the
the full results' fees ; because the rule under Minister nominally responsible, yet I do not
which any kind of local contributions were think he took a single step without consulting
taken as equivalent to the rate voted by the with me in the matter, and in discussing the
Union, provided that for every penny of such matter with the Royal Dublin Society, I sat
contribution a penny of results' fees should be with him and discussed it quite as freely as he
given. So that, practically, although the Unions did.
do not contribute under the Act, it has had the 1522. Then would you prefer that the Minis-
result of largely increasing the local contribu- terial responsibility in matters of that kind should
tions to Irish education, and at the same time be in the Irish Secretary rather than in the
providing full results' fees to the teachers. Education Department here?-I cannot speak
very much, in fact I cannot speak at all, as to
1518. We are very much obliged to you for
matters of detail in that Department. Of course,
that account; it supplements what Sir Patrick the discussions which I refer to related to a matter
Keenan gave us; and of course my object
of exceptional character, and of considerable im-
was to ask you whether that very great change portance : and I do not know how far the
effected in the Irish system, so far as the contri- ordinary 'details of the administration of the
butions of the people went, is not a good illustrdo Science and Art Vote in Ireland are successfully
tion of the position of the Irish Secretary as conducted or not; but certainly my impression
Minister of Education, in being responsible to is that the Irish would sooner Jave to deal with
Parliament for recommending great improve the Irish Government in the matter than with
ments. You would say, that in your time pro- the Science and Art Department here.
bably that was the most important change that 1523. Then do you think that the Lish
was made ? - Yes, I think, perhaps, it was.
Secretary ought to move the Estimates or the
There were changes also made of other kinds. Science and Art Department here : that is the
I remember in 1877 there was a change made real test ? I can see no reason myself why the
in the attendances required from children who Irish Secretary should not move them.
were to be submitted to examination for results 1524. So that speaking of the other Science
fees.
and Art Institutions which are now either
1519. Was that initiated by you, or was it directly under the Treasury or under the
initiated by the National Board ?-I should be Education Department here, you would like to
sorry to deprive Sir Patrick Keenan of any credit see them transferred to the responsibility of the
for it, and I do not at all say what I am about to Irish Government ?-I do not exactly under-
say with that object, but I have some recollection stand what you mean by the Science and Art
that I was anxious to screw up Irish education Institutions under the Treasury.
a little, and in private conversation with him I
may very possibly have suggested that something
Sir Lyon Playfair.
of the sort should be done.
1525. There is a vote for the Royal Irish
1520. Whatever share in it attaches to the
Academy; there is a vote for the Museum in
Chief Secretary and to the Irish National Board,
St. Stephen's Green; there are votes for the
all that is evidence of the position of the Irish
National Gallery in Ireland; various votes of that
Secretary as practically Chief Education Minister
kind ?-I must say that I should be glad to see
for Ireland ?-Yes.
the transfer made. Now take the Royal Irish
Academy; I can remember matters in which
1521. Would you now pass from the de facto there was very strong feeling on the part of the
position of the Chief Secretary to two sug- Members of the Royal Irish Academy, on some
gestions that have come before us here; one, the question of expenditure which was very trifling in
lesser suggestion of the two, and the one which amount, but on which they felt very strongly as
I will take first relates to the charge for Art and scientific men, and on which their ideas and the
Science in Ireland. In England the Education ideas of the Treasury were absolutely at variance.
Department is also the Department for Art and My position as Chief Secretary used to be that of
Science, not exclusively, but mainly. In Ireland a kind of buffer between the Treasury and these
I think at present the Museums and other De institutions. I would far rather have been re-
partments and Institutions of that kind are under sponsible for the Vote, and then I could have
either the Treasury or the Education Depart- declined to move it if I did not agree with it.
1526. In
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
95
6 May 1884.)
Right Hon. Sir MICHAEL Hicks-BEACH, Bart., M.P.
[Continued.
botiga indeed religious to how exigirse, the
the old you wouldings rathewind, which
Chairman.
. Chairman-continued.
1526. In any money Vote, there must be an good a secular education as they can without
agreement between the Department concerned
Devartinent concerned interfering with their own or their parents' reli-
and the Treasury ?--Yes, but the Department
gious opinions. At the same time, of course, the
concerned in moving the Vote has a certain
National Board system, as it now exists, was
power over the Treasury.
founded on the old religijus feeling, which was
1527. And you would very much prefer that
very strong indeed; and if you altered it now,
it should be the Irish Secretary rather than the
English Education Department, for instance,
ships and the relative proportions of Pro-
that should move the Vote?-- Yes.
testant and Catholic members on the National
1528. Then passing to the larger question, it
Board and arrangements of that kind, which
really relate to old feelings rather than to
has been suggested to us that it would be desir-
modern ones, you would run great risk of
able to place primary education in Ireland under
rousing the old feeling again. I think you would
the Department of Education in Whitehall; would
find yourselves stirring up a great opposition on
you be favourable to such a serious change as
that score rather for the sake of old feelings
that?-I do not think that it would be possible,
than of anything that exists at the present
consistently with good adainistration, to place
moment.
the details of the administration of Irish Educa-
1531. I meant by “the religious objection,”
tion under a Department in Whitehall. I think
that and the moral certainly that the Minister in
you must have a Department of Elementary
London would in all probability be a Protestant?
Education, such as that now possessed by the I do not think that that would have any very
National Board in Dublin.
great effect; if the change were once made, I do
1529. Yes, but the suggestion rather is, leaving
not think it would be regarded. But the finan-
the National Board alone, leaving it, as it is, to
cial objections no doubt in Ireland would be held
make the Minister with whom it should core-
to be strong. It would be felt, and very
spond, and who should be responsible for its
naturally felt, that in any such change the object
expenditure, the representative of the Education
of the Education Department would be very con-
Departinent at Whitehall rather than the repre-
siderably to increase the Irish local contributions,
sentative of the Irish Government; that is to
and they would fear that those contributions
say, the Minister of Education for England
would be required very possibly, to an extent
rather than the Irish Secretary; do you think
equal to, at any rate approaching, those that are
that would be a convenient thing ?-İ can con-
given in England or in Scotland. You' would
ceive that there would be certain advantages
therefore have the feeling of the pocket against
that would result froin it, and if you were now
you as well as the sentiment of religion.
about to introduce a system of primary educa-
1532. And that would be a strong feeling ?--
tion into Ireland, to start everything afresh,
That would be a strong feeling. Then I do not
there would be a great deal to be said for it; know that the teachers themselves would like the
but I do not think it would be possible to make a
change. Their position in Ireland, as the Com-
such a change now.
mittee are aware, is more independent of the
1530. We have heard from those who object managers of the school than it is in England.
to the change perhaps three main reasons : one, They are at the present moment in Ireland,
the religious difficulty; another, the fact that officers rather of the National Board than of the
the two systems financially are so entirely dis- managers of the school; and I do not think they
tinct; and the third, the national feeling, which would like to lose that position.
would resent the transfer of Irish business to the 1533. The managers of the school, in the great
control of what would be considered a purely majority of cases, are clergymen, are they not?
English Department. Do you agree with all Yes.
these three main objections ?-I believe the last 1534. And the teacher rather aims at a quasi
to be the great objection. I think there would independent position ?--Yes.
be a very general, perhaps almost unanimous, 1535. Then really on all three grounds, though
feeling in Ireland on the part of persons of all more strongly on one than the other two, you
positions and all creeds and all politics against it would deprecate any such change?-I do not
I do not attach so much importance to the so much deprecate it as say that I do not think
religious or to the financial objection. The it possible.
religious objection would probably be rather a
remnant of old religious feeling than actual
Sir Lyon Playfair.
feeling, at the present day. Of course, any 1536. Do you think that any improvement
honourable Member who looks at the condition might be made in the manner in which Irish
of Irish Education now must see that there has votes for education are brought before the House
been a very great change in the religious view of Commons ?-1 heard what Mr. Trevelyan
of the matter, so to speak, as compared with said just now, and of course I speak of another
what formerly existed. Matters of educational time and other circumstances, but I always used
interest seem to me to liave been regarded in Ire- to move the Irish Education Vote with a speech
land formerly, by persons of different creeds, almost preliminary to moving it, precisely as the Eng-
entirely as questions of proselytising, or, at any lish Education Vote is moved.
rate, as bearing upon Religious Education rather 1537. Do not you think that there were con-
than upon Secular Education. I think that siderable advantages in that as promoting dis-
every day, now there is an increasing tendency cussion and enabling Parliament to know the
to put aside that kind of feeling, and to endea- true state of Irish education ?-Certainly.
vour to secure to the children of all creeds as 1538. And if we could come back to that as a
0.51.
M 4
regular
lao
96
MINUTËS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
6 May 1884 ]
Right Hon. Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH, Bart., M.P.
[ Continued.
diguire into the nt beyond Irishe some Mem-
Sir Lyon Playfuir-continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
regular thing, would it not induce some Meme the administration of the Science Votes of Ireland
bers of Parliament, beyond Irish Members, to from the Votes of Great Britain, do not you think
inquire into the state of Irish education ?-It that great disadvantages might ensue in that
did so at the time. I can remember that you way?-I should have thought it inight be possible
yourself used to take an active part in those to make arrangements between the two Govern-
debates.
ments, so to speak, between the Irish Govern-
1539. But for some years that has not been ment and the Privy Council here, by which such
done? – Well, I did not know it was so.
things might be carried out perfectly well.
1540. With regard to the Science Votes, do not 1541. But how could that well be done when
you think that if you were to dissever the ad- the men coming up to the central institution here
ministration of Science and Art Voies in Ireland to be trained as science teachers must come for
from those of Great Britain, Ireland might lose a a national competition all over the United King-
good deal in the connection between the various dom (in which Irishmen have been very success-
institutions; for instance, the loans of works of ful) if you were to dissever the Science Votes of
art from the central Museum in London, and the Great Britain from the Science Votes of Ireland ?
possibility of science teachers who passed the -I stated to the Committee that I was not
scientific examinations coming up to London and acquainted with the everyday working of the
being trained under such men as Huxley, and details of the science and art votes in Ireland,
Frankland, and Guthrie, which they are at the pre- and there may be practical difficulties of that
sent moment. If you were entirely to separate sort, no doubt.
Mr. DOUGLAS RICAMOND, called in; and Examined.
Chairman.
Chairman-continued.
1542. You are one of the Charity Commis- that the endowment is now doing, and the needs
sioners, I think?-I am.
of the locality in which it works.
1543. You were secretary, were you not?-
1552. It is so now, you say ; was this the
I was secretary before I was a Commissioner.
course pursued at the time that those schemes
154.1. Altogether, for how many years have
were settled ?- At the time that we made the
you had practical experience at the Charity
schemes. Having inforined ourselves as fully as
Commission --I was secretary to the Charity
we can about the endowment, we then approach
Commission from the beginning of 1875 till
the question, What educational work shall we
April of last year; before that I was secretary
design for it in the future; and in that matter we
to the Endowed Schools Commissioners.
have the assistance of skilled Assistant Commis-
1545. It is with respect to the endowed schools
sioners; and, I think I may say, that the edu-
that we wish some information from you. The
cational part of the scheme is as carefully
different schemes for the endowed schools have
considered as the financial or any other part
been adopted by the Privy Council, I think,
of it.
under Mr. Forster's Act? - Yes.
1546. Can you tell us how many schemes
1553. The routine on the part of the Charity
altogether have passed the Privy Council ?-
Commission is the same as it was when the En-
723, at the close of last year.
dowed Schools Commission was a separate Body,
1547. Some of those were very small and un- is it? Yes, the powers are the same.
important, I suppose ?—Some are very small. 1554. You, therefore, submit to the Privy
1548. How many large schemes would you Council what you consider would be an efficient
say, speaking roughly, have been adopted by educational arrangement with respect to each of
the Commission, and then afterwards by the the schools ?-Certainly.
Privy Council ?-I am afraid I should have 1555. And the Privy Council in some cases
difficulty in saying how many large schemes. have suggested amendments, I think, which have
I could say how many endowed schools are esta been finally put into operation ?-The suggestions
blished under them.
of the Education Department for annendinents
1549. First grade schools, to begin with ? -
arise almost exclusively, I think, upon objections
Schemes for 75 first grade schools, for 164 second taken at the Department after the scheme has left
grade schools, for 153 third grade schools, and for our hands.
245 elementary schools.
1556. And as a matter of routine, does the
1550. The first two, I suppose, we may reckon
draft scheme go back to you with those excep-
as the more important?- Some of the third grade
tions ?-Under the Endowed Schools Act of
schools are also very important, large endow-
1873, the Education Departrnent have power to
ments and large schools.
remit a scheme to the Commissioners with a
1551. In settling those schemes how far did
the Endowed Schools Commission or the Charity
declaration indicating amendments. That power
Commission look into the education question as
has been acted upon not infrequently, but I
distinct from the business question ?-We enter
think almost wholly in respect of objections
very carefully indeed into the educational side
which have been urged before the Department
as a sort of Court of Appeal from the Charity
of every scheme. The investigation is a com-
plete one, first, into the history and property of
Commissioners.
the endowment dealt with, next into the work 1557. Not so much originating in the Educa-
tion
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
97
6 May 1884.]
Mr. RICHMOND.
Chuirman--continued.
Chairman-continued.
tion Department as originating outside ?--I think approved; once every year when the accounts
almost wholly originating outside.
come, and the second opportunity on special oc-
1558. When you have considered those objec- casions, when applications are made to you under
tions, then you submit a reformed scheme, an the scheme for the exercise of particular powers.
amended scheme ; is that so ?- The usual Then let me ask you on either occasion, and we
mode of procedure has been in practice this: will take the most important one first, the special
that the Department have given the Charity occasion, do you make any inquiry as to how the
Commissioners an opportunity of seeing these scheme works ?-We clo, very often; and not
objections thich have been taken before the infrequently we direct further inquiries in con-
Department, and upon that we very often make a sequence of information that we so obtain.
suggestion of some concession which will get over 1567. Are those inquiries purely financial, or
some difficulty, and the scheme has then been are they educational ?-Not necessarily purely
amendinent which we have ourselves suggested 1568. Could you give, without mentioning any
on that consultation with the Department. name, an instance when you opened up the
1559. Then the final scheme as adopted under educational question on a financial proposal being
the statute may be held to be in its Educational made ?-1 am not sure that I can remember an
character (I am not asking you about the business instance of that on a financial proposal being
part), the result of the combined views of the macie ; but there occurs to me at this moment a
Privy Council and of the Charity Commission, case in an important town, with a large popula-
or formeriv the Endowed Schools Commission ý tion, where we had under a scheme re-built a
-I think myself that unless an objection is school, and, as we thought, done everything that
taken to a scheme, it is approved, almost as a
was necessary to make it a useful school for that
matter of course, by the Department. I think large population ; but incidentally it came to our
they sufficiently know the general educational
knowledge that the number of boys at that school
principles upon which these schemes are drawn, was something like a dozen, I think 13, some
ok moyente, it is separtment education
mation of the Acts ou put it into one formed
vou see that the new governing bodyus cornicu
receive them, if they are not objected to.
been established.
1560. When a scheme has become law, under
1569. Did they then ask you to do something
the operation of the Act, you put it into effect, for them which gave you the opportunity of
as it were, do you not; you put it into operation; inquiring “I think it arose in this way : that
you see that the new governing body is formed the solicitor to that Trust being at the office on
and that the scheme is carried out? We have perhaps financial business, some ordinary busi-
no very direct means of doing that. We supply ness, mentioned this matter to myself, and in
the governing body with copies of the scheme,
that way I had cognisance of the fact that this
and we presume that they carry it into effect, but endowment in a very large town was apparently
we have no systematic method of assuring our- doing almost no work. -
selves that the scheme is thoroughly carried
1570. Did you then send an inspector down?
into offect.
-Then we sent down one of our Assistant Com-
1567. So that after the particular scheme has missioners under the Endowed Schools Acts, to
been adopted and communicated to the authorities see whether a new scheme was wanted, or why
concerned, do we understand you to say that you
the matter had miscarried.
know nothing more about it?-I could not say
1571. Had you compulsory powers over them,
that; because, in a very large number of cases,
ce number of cases or was it à l'aimable ? -We had to use some pres-
the scheme directs certain things to be done with
sure, because the miscarriage was traced to one
our sanction; for instance, the raising of money
individual, who was responsible for the educa-
for new school buildings; all financial arrange-
tional work under that scheme.
ments consequent upon that would be referred to 1572. Without going through the intermediate
us for approval.
steps, was the result a reform, and an effective
1562. However long after the scheme has come reform ?— The result was a change in the head-
into operation ?-Yes.
mastership).
1563. A school might have been established
1573. And the increased usefulness of the
under a new scheme or reforined under a new school ?-. The case has so recently happened that
scheme 10 years ago, and this year they might
I have not information yet on that point.
come to you to carry out certain financial opera-
1574. Now, let us take the other occasion on
tions ?-It might be so.
which you have information; you say that the
1564. Are those only instances where you Trustees or Governing Body are bound to sub-
have any opportunity of knowing how the scheme mit their accounts every year to the Charity
works?- We have some opportunities otherwise. Commission ; have you frequently, from what
All charities are bound to send their accounts to you have noticed on the face of the accounts, been
the Charity Commission, and we can, by exami- led to suspect that things were not right, and
nation of those accounts, sometimes arrive at have you then, in consequence, made inquiry ?
some conclusions as to how the scheme is work. I have frequently seen grounds to suppose that
a scheme was not being carried out in its en-
1565. Are those annual accounts ?- Annual tirety.
accounts.
1575. And what do you then do?-In an ex-
1566. Then there are two opportunities where treme case we take action by an inquiry ; but
the Charity Commission might know something our staff is very small ; it is already engaged
about the working of a scheme which they have amply under the Endowed Schools Acts in the
0.51.
inquiries
ing.
98
MINUTLS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
6 May 1884.]
Mr. RICHMOND.
[Continued.
cases of the Schools Acts proper dutils by taking
Chairman - continued.
Chairman--continued.
inquiries necessary for schemes for schools yet inclination is in favour of an Examining Board
unreformed, and it is practically only by taking mainly representing the Universities.
men off from their more proper duties under the 1587. Not under the Education Department?
Endowed Schools Acts that we can follow up -If there were a complete Ministry of Education.
cases of the kind I have been mentioning.
reaching from the Univereities down to the
1576. Then may the Committee conclude that,
elementary schools, it would be a different
except in very rare instances, either as the result matter ; but taking the Education Department
of special application, or as the result of obser-
as it is, I see no advantage in placing the
vation of the annual accounts, the Charity Com-
examination of the grammar schools under the
missioners do not know what is the working of
Education Department, and I think there are
the schemes which have been approved ?-To a
some reasons against it.
very large extent we do not know.
1588. We will take your position first. Under
1577. And is that satisfactory, in your mind ?
such a system, which Minister would be respon-
-Certainly not.
sible to Parliament for the efficiency of these
1578. You would wish, would you, that the
schools ?-I presume that, as at present, the Lord
Charity Commissioners and the public should be
President is responsible in the one House and
officially informed of the working of the En-
the Vice President in the other for these schemes ;
dowed Schools, the schemes for which they have those Ministers would be generally resnonsible
approved ?-I think they should.
for anything affecting the schools in question.
1579. Should that information be communi-
1589. How would you connect it with them
cated to them annually, or at what period ?-I
if the examination is not conducted by their
think it is most important that there be an
officers, but by independent bodies like the Uni-
authoritative inspection periodically of endowed
versities? I would have the reports of the
schools under schemes.
Examining Board communicated to the Minister
1580. Of every endowed school ?-I think
who would be charged with any matter in Parlia-
every endowed school under a scheme should be
ment affecting those schools.
periodically, I would not say annually, but
1590. How could the Minister be responsible
periodically, liable to inspection.
for the reports of boards or of officers who were
1581. Including all the first grade schools ? —
not responsible to him? His ultimate responsi-
I would say so.
bility, I presume, would be with reference to the
1582. Although some of them are practically
scheme itself, and the scheme could only be
public schools ?-I thivk that the power to inspect
made through the Minister.
in the way I have been mentioning should be
quite as wide as the power that we have under
1591. If anything goes wrong in the adminis
the Charitable Trusts Acts to supervise the
tration of your Commission, which Minister has
business arrangements of trusts. Two schools,
to attend to the matter in Parliament?-I think,
Eton and Winchester, are wholly exempt from
the Lord President and the Vice President.
our jurisdiction, even under the Charitable Trusts
1592. They are not ex officio members of your
Acts, but otherwise all the public schools are Commission, are they? -The Vice President is
liable to the jurisdiction under the Charitable actually a member, but not I think ex officio; I
Trusts Acts; and I think that this power of think it is by special appointment, but the Vice-
inspection should extend as far.
President is a Charity Commissioner.
1583. Would you like to see that inspection 1593. Does he ever attend ?-No.
carried out under the Charity Commission or 1594. Are the transactions of the Commission
under the Education Department ?-I think my. reported to him ?-Not officially to him. The
self, that it would be only possible in an effectual work under the Endowed Schools Acts of course
way, under the Charity Commission. I am goes before him officially
speaking of inspection as distinguished from 1595. The ordinary transactions of the Com-
examination of boys. The work of inspection of mission he has no cognisance of ?-No.
an endowed school would be mainly such as 1596. How can he be practically responsible
should be in the hands of trained lawyers; and I as a Minister to Parliament for work of which
think that the inspector should have the amplest he knows nothing, except on the particular occa-
information about the subject-matter of his sion when a complaint is made ?-I should pre-
inspection ; that is to say, he should have entire sume that he would have cognisance of the
access to all the information which the Charity results of the examination of boys under such a
Commission possesses, and the Charity Com- Board as I was indicating, and that the practical
mission alone, about these endowed schools. result of any adverse report in respect of any
1584. That would not be strictly speaking an particular school would be an inquiry by the
educational inspection, would it; it would be inspector with a view to a remedy.
more in the nature of a business inspection ?- 1597. And you think that that would be
I am distinguishing between inspection and the sufficient to affect him with Parliamentary
mere examination of boys.
responsibility ?-I had thought so.
1585. Then assuming that there should be this 1598. Then let us take the other suggestion
periodical inspection, to see whether from a you made. You said that with the present con-
business point of view, the objects of the reform stitution of the Ministry of Education, that is the
of these institutions had been carried out, would course that you would like to see followed; what
you add to that an educational inspection ?-I change in the constitution of the Ministry of
would certainly have a systematic examination of Education had you in your mind when you
schools.
attached that condition ?- I was not so much
1586. Under what Department ?--My own thinking what the form of a Ministry of Educa-
tion
15.000 he has more he be practic work of occa-
de. the Ministry, pe to see followinistry of
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION99
I NY
).
6 May 1884.]
Mr. RICHMOND.
[Continued.
Oope with officers, present comind wash of these
be one difficulty Depart
Department of the Departmmely
very in than thing author: that endowedo Departa? tion to com
otas's schools, sues, and other I think it is
Chairman--continued.
Chairman-continued.
tion should be, but I was speaking with reference Yes ; but I should not be anxious to see a very
to the question whether I would commit to the minute interference with the development of
Education Department the examination of these these endowed grammar schools. I should be
schools. What was in my mind was that the sorry if they were to be so regulated as to be all,
Départment, as at present constituted, and with as far as possible, brought to one pattern. I think
its present officers, would be wholly unable to one advantage that we have, in spite of our want
cope with such a work as that of the examination of system, is that that these schools can develop,
of the hundreds of grammar schools of the each in its own way, in accordance with the
country.
want of their own particular localities.
1599. You do not mean so much the constitu- 1604. That is in harmony, is it not, with our
tion of the Ministry of Education as the constitu- national character in all Departments ?-.I think
tion of the Department working under the so.
Ministry?- Quite so.
1605. And, therefore, it does not follow that it
1600. But if the Department under the would be destroyed or trenched upon by a some-
Minister were made strong enough to carry out what more harmonious action in the constitution
these inquiries, strong enough both in numbers of the responsible ministry ? - No, I do not think it
and in the character of its personnel, then do you would follow ; but one reason why I was anxious
think that they should be under the Education not to commit myself in favour of an examina-
Department? - There is one difficulty that I tion of the grammar schools by the Education
foresee in committing to any particular Depart. Department, as now constituted, was that
ment the examination of the endowed grammar the action of the Department necessarily looks
schools, and that is this—that I think the scope to one single result, namely how a large
of any examining authority should be very much money grant shall be distributed. The schools
wider than the endowed grammar schools. A under the Department are, therefore, all
very large proportion, perhaps the larger part, trained to one model, and according to one code;
of the grammar school education in this and I should be very sorry to see any special
country is done by schools which are not system introduced which would lead to the esta-
in the category of endowed schools at all; blishment of anything like a uniform code for
I mean schools under proprietary bodies, such grammar schools on anything like the same
as Cheltenham College and Clifton College, and principle as is applied to the elementary schools.
others that will occur to one's mind ; or middle 1606. But do you think that that would be
class schools such as the county schools in likely to follow, considering that these schools
Devon and Surrey, and other counties, all rest- we are now speaking of are not the subjects of
ing upon a voluntary basis. I think it is very annual Votes of Parliament ?---I am afraid that
important that they should all be induced to come it would come to this, that the examining work
in to a general examining system, and it occurs would be so very large that it would require an
to me that if the organisation of the examinations enormous staff; because you cannot examine a
were in the hands of two or three permanent grammar school on any day in the year as you
officials, it is very possible that many of those can an elementary school; there would be an
schools would be disinclined to come in, whereas immense amount of work to be done probably at
I think they would be glad, even proud, to be two periods of the year, perhaps at Midsummer
linked in some way with the Universities as an and at Christmas; you would require so large a
examining body.
staff of expert examiners that the State could not
1601. Then I take your evidence to mean on think of employing such a body, and they would
this point that you would have no connection only be required at two or three periods of the
between the work of the Universities and the year. It seems to me, therefore, that the direc-
Minister, except that after the inquiries had been tion of the examinations would inevitably fall
made by the Universities, the Minister should be into the hands of two or three permanent
cognisant of them ?-Yes, I think so, as the officials.
Education Department is now constituted; but 1607. Would not that be an argument against
I thought that if, in the future, the Education this being entrusted to the Universities who have
Minister had direct cognisance of the affairs of the not a large staff of examining officials ?-I think,
Uuiversities and also the affairs of the elementary that the Universities could supply a certain
schools, no doubt a place in his Department would number of eminent members of their bodies
be found for the grammar schools.
who together might form an efficient Board for
1602. Then I gather it to be your opinion directing these examinations, and that they would
that it would be desirable to constitute a Ministry employ for the purpose a very large staff of men
of Education, instead of, as now, a Department whose services they can perfectly well com-
of Primary Education; and that the Minister of mand.
that Department should have charge of it in 1608. Then the sum of your evidence would
Parliament, and towards Parliament should be be this: You are dissatisfied with the want of
responsible for the whole of the education of the information wbich the public have, and which
country ? ---That is a very large question on which Parliament has, as to the results of the schemes
I have no authority to speak; but I should cer- for these important institutions which have been
tainly, speaking generally, be disposed favourably adopted under Act of Parliament?--Certainly.
to a complete Ministry of Education.
1609. But you would rather that those results
1603. You would like to have in England were ascertained through agencies independent
what they have, I believe, in every European of the Education Department, and only communi-
country, that is not in a semi-barbarous con- cated to the Education Department, than through
dition, a real Minister of Public Instruction ?- their own agents ?-I think that the educational
0 51.
results,
cammar schis Depar
that it woThen
ainave no aThat is a whole of arliamearge offer of
N
2
.
-
. -,.
.
100
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
6 May 1884.]
Mr. RICHMOND,
[Continued.
fid not
Chairman-continued.
Mr. Herbert-continued.
results, the strictly educational results I mean, 1622. You have that power, have you, under
would be better ascertained by some other agency the Endowed Schools Acts?- The Endowed
than that of the Education Department.
Schools Acts give us power, having made a
1610. And you think that the Minister could scheme, to make an amended scheme; and we
be affected with sufficient responsibility under have power to inquire with a view to making
such a system ?-I think so.
schemes.
1623. Then would you have power to send
Sir Lyon Playfair.
dowa an Assistant Commissioner to every one
1611. Did you ever happen to notice a Bill of these Endowed Schools whenever you liked,
which I introduced into Parliament, making a under the pretext that you wanted to amend the
representative council from the various educa- scheme?-It would be a pretext if that were done
tional bodies, including universities, of the king- universally.
dom, and giving to them examining powers for
1624. But under your present powers you
secondary schools ?- am afraid not.
have the power of investigating all these schools
1612. Do not you think it would be possible
under that pretext ?- Under that pretext we
to make such a representative body and throw
have.
the expense of the examination of the schools
1625. The master was dismissed, you say, in
upon the endowed schools and secondary schools
the case you referred to; have you power to do
themselves, instead of charging it on the State ?
that?- Ultimately we have power by making a
Certainly, I think the expense of all examina-
scheme to that effect, subject, possibly, to com-
tions should be charged upon the schools them-
selves.
pensation.
1613. But, supposing there was such a council
(or board, as you have called it) for such exami-
Mr. James Campbell.
nations, whom would you make ultimately the 1626. For what purpose are the accounts sent
person who is to inform Parliament as to the in to the Charity Commissioners?--- There is a
result?-In the present constitution of the De- statutory direction under the Charitable Trusts
partment, I think we have only the Lord Presi- Acts that all charities of every sort and kind shall
dent and the Vice President for that purpose. send yearly accounts to us.
1614. You would still bring them in connection 1627. But not for the purpose of being audited ?
with any such examinations as a means of giving -No, there is no audit.
full information to Parliament ?-1 would.
1628. What power have the Charity Commis-
1615. Even if you did not give them any sioners in relation to these accounts : can they
administrative functions in connection with the demand any explanation ?_Yes, we can demand
examinations ?-Yes.
explanations.
1616. But, as regards the Charity Commis-
sion, do not you think that these Ministers
Mr. Herbert.
have a inore direct responsibility between Par-
liament and the body that receives Parliamentary
1629. Can they insist upon an answer?-In
Votes ?--Yes, that is a more direct responsi-
the last resort (I presume we are speaking
bility.
now under the Charitable Trusts ricts) there
1617. That we would have a right to say to would be power; we can compel the production
these Ministers, Give Parliament iníorination as of documents, and that would probably cover the
to how the schemes are going on which have question.
been sanctioned by the Charity Commission ?
-Yes.
Mr. James Campbell.
1618. Both as regards whether the schemes
1630. Do I rightly understand that the ob-
have been fully carried out and what results
hare followed, that is, to the education of the
ject of sending in these accounts is for the
country in regard to them?--Yes.
information of the Charity Commissioners, and
1619. Then, I think, we are pretty much
not because any action is required on the part of
the Commissioners ?-No; I think it was part of
agreed ; that it is simply a scheme of organisa-
tion which is desired, but that the ultimate
the policy when the Charitable Trusts Acts
responsibility must be with whoever is called
were enacted a long time ago, that knowledge,
at any rate, should be given to the Charity Com-
Minister of Education ?- I think so.
missioners of the accounts of all these charities,
Mr. Herbert.
but very many of them fail to send them in, and
1620. You say that all these charities, by
we are very frequently pressing charities to send
which I suppose you mean all the endowed
in their accounts.
schools, are bound to send in annual accounts to
1631. Then can you oblige them to send in
the office of the Charity Commissioners ? - They
the accounts ? -We can oblige them.
are.
1632. But, practically, many of them do not
1621. And you gave an instance of an occa- send them in ?- Many of the smaller charities
sion upon which you sent an Assistant Commis are very remiss about it; the larger and better
sioner down to inquire into the case of a school. managed charities are punctual enough, for the
Now, under what power did you do that?- most part.
Strictly speaking, the power in that case was, I 1633. But you do not regard these accounts
think, exercised under the Endowed Schools as amounting to a report which calls for exami-
Acts, with a view to determine whether a new nation and criticism by the Commission ?-No;
or amended scheme was required.
nor have we the staff to examine them.
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
101
Tuesday, 13th May 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. Errington.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Herbert.
Sir John Lubbock.
Lord Algernon Percy.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Mr. Sexton.
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, IN THE CHAIR.
Mr. EDWARD AUGUSTUS BOND, LL.D., called in; and Examined.
Chairman.
Chairman--continued.
1634. YOU are Secretary to the British value of the purchase. With regard to the means
Museum Trustees, are you not? —— Principal of obtaining the purchase, no doubt they can
Librarian and Secretary.
derive assistance from a Minister, and those
1635. The question has been raised here means we have hitherto obtained by the assist-
whether it might not be expedient, that instead ance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the
of the British Museum Trustees being as it were Prime Minister. Mr. Gladstone himself, and
under, or at any rate reporting to, no particular Lord Beaconsfield before him, have personally
Minister, and dealing directly with the Treasury given great assistance, and materially advanced
on questions of expenditure and so forth, they the interests of the Trustees, by themselves com-
should correspond with the Committee of Coun- ing to a decision. I think the Trustees would
cil on Education, so as to be treated as a branch prefer to treat direct with thern, rather than
of the educational system of the country; can through the agency of another Minister. A
you tell me whether the Trustees, so far as you Minister of General Instruction would have too
are aware, or you yourself, have formed any wide a domain to look after such matters; I think
opinion upon that subject ?-On the first view of he would be hardly qualified of himself to regu-
the question it strikes me that there would be late matters concerning the Museum. They are
delay caused in the business of the Trustees by very special; questions of the purchase of anti-
the introduction of an intermediate body, such as quities and of coins, questions of the purchase of
the Science and Art Department.
manuscripts. They are special again in the
1636. I will repeat an illustration which has department of Natural History. Each of these
been used in the questions which have been put subjects requires a special knowledge, which you
to previous witnesses; you will remember a dis- would hardly, in my opinion, expect, even from a
cussion we had last year about the purchase of Minister of Instruction.
the Ashburnham Collection, and the Trustees 1637. That points rather, does it not, to the
approached Mr. Gladstone and myself, in other British Museum Trustees being responsible to
words approached the Treasury, with regard to nobody for the large expenditure under their
that proposed purchase; the suggestion is, that charge ?- Their responsibility at present is to
the Lord President and the Vice President, the Treasury and to the public at large,—to the
having charge of analogous questions in connec- House of Commons. In earlier times special
tion with the South Kensington Museum, and grants were obtained by direct application to the
the other museums of the country, would be more House of Commons, which usually appointed a
fit persons for you to discuss a matter of that Committee to consider the question. The great
kind with before the formal and purely monetary Elgin Collection of marbles from the Parthenon
question was discussed with the Treasury; is at Athens was bought by that means.
there not a good deal to be said for that?--My 1638. But in these days is it not the case that
opinion is that the question of purchase is very Parliament constitutionally looks to a Minister
much decided by the Trustees and their officers, as responsible for proposals for expenditure ?
and that they can hardly expect any assistance That is a constitutional question upon which
as to the value of a purchase to be given to them I am hardly qualified to give an opinion.
by any consultation, even with a Minister. These
matters of purchase for the British Museum are
Sir Lyon Playfair.
so very much out of the ordinary line of dealings,
that they necessitate the knowledge of an expert 1639. Do you think that the First Lord of the
on every occasion; and I am not aware that in Treasury or the Chancellor of the Exchequer
any case they have derived, nor can I conceive have any special knowledge of Science or of Art
that they could derive, any particular advantage that would make them more easy of approach
from the assistance of a Minister in deciding the than a Minister of Education would be likely to
0.51.
N 3
be,
102
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
13 May 1884.]
Mr. BOND, LL.D.
[Continued.
even one tomme at the tions, beinztage of
Sir Lyon Playfair--continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
be, either in himself or in those with whom he is ance given to them by the Museum than there
associated ?-Recalling the Prime Ministers of used to be. Of late years much has been done.
whom I have recollection, I think of Sir Robert Since the establishment of free libraries, the
Peel, and I think of Mr. Gladstone, and I think Trustees have presented their publications liberally
of Lord Beaconsfield; and my opinion is that to these libraries as they were formed ; and they
either one of those three would form a better have also obtained from the Treasury a special
judgment of the value of a purchase for the grant to distribute reproductions of some of
Museum than a Minister of Education. Of their works of art, such as that important class
course we are comparing them with an unknown of coins. We have made a very important selec-
person; we do not know who might be Minister tion of the best Greek coins with some of the
of Education.
Roman coins, which have been electrotyped, and
1640. You are, at present, referring more to which answer the purpose for the study of art
purchases in art, I presume, than to anything equally well with the originals.
else ?-I think it applies to purchases in general. 1647. Do not you think that if there were a
There are men very gifted with a knowledge of Minister in more immediate connection with
literature and science, and they would under- Parliament, you would get the advantage of
stand the value of a purchase, and the value of that action, and your other actions, being better
an opinion given with reference to it.
known than they are at the present moment.
1641. Do you not think if there were a true There is no one to answer for in the House of
Minister of Education appointed (I am not Commons except the Secretary of the Treasury,
speaking of the present organisation), the public who must be in each case coached for the
would expect that a man of enlarged knowledge occasion?- We have not experienced any diffi-
and enlarged capacities would be putinto such an culty in that respect; it is conjectural more than
office ? - Yes, certainly.
practical.
1642. And that if there was such a Minister1648. But you know that the feeling exists in
of Education, although no one Minister would the public mind that it might obtain inuch more
possess all the knowledge necessary, he would advantage from the British Museum as regards
be of a capacity that would enable him to obtain the provinces than it has hitherto done?--I
the best advice from yourself and from others in would again venture to say that that is an
regard to these questions ?—That may fairly be opinion which has gone by. I have received
expected.
myself deputations from Birmingham and other
1643. At the present moment, the Votes for places; I might name, for instance, Wolver-
the British Museum are, at all events, intro- hampton and Manchester; all expressive of great
duced to the House, if not formally moved by gratitude for the assistance they have received
one of the Trustees, who happens to be in the froin the Museum of late years; and I doubt if
House at the time ?-By a member of the Board there is anything that they could ask for that
who is also a Member of the House.
would not be given to them by the free will of
1644. Do you think that there is any special the Trustees without any intervention of the
advantage in making the British Museum diffe- House of Commons.
rent from all other bodies in the country in that 1649. That information would be very valu.
respect. At the present moment, in the case of able for the House to possess. For instance,
all other Votes, the Minister in charge is respon- taking a person. like myself, interested in public
sible for bringing these Votes before the House, Museums; I was not aware, until it was given in
and for defending them if they are attacked ?- evidence by you just now, that you are going to
I think our present system meeta the require- do what you have described for the provinces ?
ments of the case sufficiently. The Member who To a very great extent we are doing it now.
moves the Vote is one who attends frequently 1650. But if a Minister had to explain your
the meetings of the Board, and therefore is con- Vote to the House, it would have been his duty
versant with all the business of the Museum; to show what you have been doing during the
and I think any Minister who might move the last year, and how much the provinces are
Votes, but who did not also give the same atten- benefited by your action ? — My own expe-
tion to the business of the Board, would not rience enables me to answer that, and to say
be so well instructed, and could not so well that full explanation of it has been given. I was
answer questions in the House.
myself present when last the yearly Estimates
1645. Would you not have the same advantage were moved by. Sir John Lubbock, as a Member
if a trustee, who was also a Member of the of the Board, and I can say that Sir John on that
House, was there to assist the Minister in defend- occasion did state these very facts in the House ;
ing the Votes, if the Votes were attacked, or if and that on any challenge from any Member of
the administration were attacked ? - It might the House, or on any question being asked, a
be so.
Member of the Trustees Board is always at hand
1646. Is it not the case, for instance, that to give an explanation.
there is a continual expression of feeling from 1651. You have declined to answer it as a con-
different parts of the provinces that the British stitutional question, but, of course, this Com-
Museum should more largely aid the provinces mittee have to consider it in that relation : Is
with its duplicates; and that there is no person there anything so peculiar in the British Museum
upon whom it naturally falls to defend your Votes that there ought to be an exception in its
action or want of action in the matter?-On that case from the way in which all the other Votes
question I would say that my full belief is that of the nation are administered, namely, through
there is very much greater satisfaction felt by a responsible Minister ?—The mere moving of the
the institutions in the country with the assist- Vote, as far as I understand it, need not neces-
sarily
uld not anything the late ye
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
103
13 May 1884.]
Mr. BOND, LL.D.
[Continued.
and on the part of such a Ministar
of the Museum
rithouy withouton of the
as emit Depothe leap
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
Mr. Herbert-continued.
sarily make any difference in the Government by tuted for different purposes, that there might be
the Board; but if by moving the Vote is meant on the part of such a Minister a bias in favour of
that the administration of the Museum would one or the other, which we should not expect at
pass from the Trustees to a certain Minister, I all in the Treasury or in the Prime Minister.
could conceive myself many things which I should That is conceivable to me; I do not say it must
think would be prejudicial to the Museum. be so.
1652. I think that would be the very general 1657. On that subject which you have raised,
opinion; but the question I put has not any con- there might be some clashing between the British
nection with the administration, but as to there Museum and South Kensington ; would you fear
being a centre of communication between the anything of that sort occurring ?- There has
House of Commons and the British Museum, so been no clashing hitherto; I think South Ken-
that information may be obtained as to adminis- sington is established for a different object and
tration when it is desirable?-If the Minister with different aims from the British Museum,
took the same interest in the affairs of the and hitherto there has been no collision at all
Museum, no doubt he would be a very good between the two institutions.
vehicle for conveying the wishes of the Trustees. 1658. That arises, I suppose, mainly from the
fact that they are absolutely separate institutions,
Mr. Herbert.
under different management ?- Totally different
1653. With regard to the last question Sir management; and if I might venture to say so, I
Lyon Playfair put to you, I gather that you think à comparison of the management of the two
think that any interference on the part of the institutions would not be unfavourable to the
Vice President of the Council would be preju- British Museum. I do not say anything against
dicial to the interests of the British Museum ?- South Kensington.
It certainly might be ; I should be apprehensive
that it would be
Sir John Lubbock.
1654. But you think that there would be no 1659. It is the case, is it not, that there is no
objection to the mere formal procedure of the clashing with reference to purchases at all be-
Minister of Education, the Vice President of the tween the British Museum and the South Ken.
Council, moving the Votes in the House of sington Museum ?-None whatever. There was
Commons ?-I cannot foresee any objection if it a report of such a thing on the occasion of the
does not interfere, as I say, with the administra- Bernal sale, but it was entirely without founda-
tion of the Museum itself. I think the body of tion; in fact, so totally without foundation that
Trustees has proved itself a very valuable the British Museum was employing the same
government for the Museum. It has existed for agent with the Science and Art Department.
130 years; and unless it can be shown that the 1660. A considerable number of the leading
Museum has failed in its object, it may be pre- menibers of the Government are Trustees of the
sumed that the Trustees have been successful in British Museum, are they not?—Ex officio, all the
the administration. The present Body offers a chief members of the Government are members
good many advantages; has a selection of of the Trustees Board.
gentlemen of the highest position in the country, 1661. Including the President of the Council?
who take the sincerest interest in the success and Including the Presideut of the Council.
prosperity of the institution; and in that Body 1662. And if the President of the Council bad
are included men of scientific and art qualifica- the least wish to be on the Standing Committee,
tions of a very high degree.
there would not be the slightest difficulty, would
1655. Do you think that the interests of the there, in his being elected ?-No doubt his
British Museum would be better served by presence would be considered a great strengthen-
having the Votes moved for, and the responsi- ing of the Board
bility taken by the Vice President, than as at 1663. Therefore, if at any time the Lord Pre-
present?-I have difficulty in seeing that it sident wished to take a more active part in the
would be at all benefited by that. Under the British Museum, there would be no difficulty in
present system our Vote is passed without a his being at once elected to act in that manner ?
difficulty. If we have to contend at all, if there -None whatever.
is a difference between the Trustees and the 1664. That would require no change whatever
Government, where the difficulty would be is in the constitution of the Museum ? -None.
with the Treasury. The Estimates are finally 1665. If it has not been done, it is presumably
settled with the Treasury, and it is not in the because Presidents of the Council have not
House of Commons that we experience any diffi- thought it, on the whole, desirable to take that
culty.
course ?-I am not aware that they have ever
1656. But may I take it that, supposing any asked to sit on the Board; but I can readily con-
one of the Votes were attacked in the House of ceive that the Trustees would wish that the Pre-
Commons, you would rather have that Vote sident of the Council should sit there now that
defended by the Treasury, with the assistance of he is so much connected with education; I pre-
one of the Trustees, and perhaps also with the sume he was not so much connected with it for-
assistance of the Prime Minister, than you would merly.
have it defended by the Vice President of the 1666. They have never asked to sit on the
Council ? - From experience and knowledge of Board ?-Not to my knowledge.
how things are, I should be content that it should 1667. I will not ask you any questions as to
be so; for I think that sufficient, whereas the the manner in which the Votes for the British
other is an uncertainty. A “ Minister of General Museum are now moved, because I inyself have
Instruction” has functions so wide, including that responsibility, but I will ask you with re-
general education and the care of museums insti ference to what used to take place under my
0.51.
N 4
predecessor;
el ficulty the between dificulties are finally
Government, asury. The Estil it is not i
ference pou what used to take place under my
104
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
13 May 1884.] ..
Mr. BOND, LL.D.
[Continued.
Sir John Lubbock --continued.
Sir John Lubbock-continued.
predecessor; you are aware that Mr. Walpole those who, in a great measure, comprehend the
moved the Estimates in the House of Commons requirements of the different Departments.
for a considerable number of years ?-Yes.
1677. And it is most desirable, in the interests
1668. And Mr. Walpole is a very constant of the country, that whoever defends the Vote
and regular attendant at the meetings of the in the House of Commons should be the person
Trustees, is he not ?-He scarcely ever misses a most practically conversant with the working of
meeting, or fails to take an active part in any the Museum ?-Quite so.
discussion with a view to a decision.
1678. The present system has been in opera-
1669. Another former Member of the House tion for over 100 years, you said ?--For 130
of Commons, who is also a member of the Board years; and hitherto I am not aware that any
of Trustees, is Lord Sherbrooke?-He also complaint has been made. It works very well
scarcely ever misses; and Mr. Beresford Hope with the Trustees themselves, and of course the
very rarely fails to attend.
Museum is really governed by public opinion;
Vote should be moved and defended in the House tration are influenced strongly by public opinion,
of Commons by some one who is in the habit of which operates very directly upon it.
attending the meetings of the Trustees regularly,
and knows what takes place at them ?-I think it
Chairman.
is most essential.
1679. Is the Vice President of the Council
1671. Therefore, supposing that the Vice one of the Trustees, ex officio ? He is not
President was to move the Vote for the British 1680. Therefore, so far as the House of Com.
Museum in the House of Commons, in order inons is concerned, his being upon the Standing
that he might be able to do so with as much effi-
Committee would involve a change in the consti-
ciency as Mr. Walpole always did, it would be tution of the Museum ? If, ex officio, he were to
necessary that he should give a considerable be there, it would involve an alteration of the Act
amount of time to making himself acquainted of Incorporation.
with the work of the Museum?-Indispensable. 1681. 1 gathered from what you said that
1672. And I need hardly ask you whether everything had run smoothily between you and
that would be a considerable addition to his the Treasury ?-I am not aware that I said
labours ?- •It would involve an attendance ouce exactly that.
a fortnight, as a rule; probably oftener, now 1682. That practically you had no difficulty
that we have two museums under one Board.
with the Treasury ? -. I think I said that the
1673. That is to say, irrespective of the com- Trustees, in my opinion, would prefer to deal
mittees ?-Irrespective of sub-committees. directly with the Treasury and the Prime Minis-
1674. Now supposing that the questions which ter. I cannot say that on all occasions the Trea-
arise with the Treasury were to go through the sury have conceded the requests or the applica-
Education Office, do not you think that there tions of the Trustees.
would be some inconvenience in the correspon- 1683. Have you not had, in point of fact, verv
dence between the Museum and the Treasury long discussions with the Treasury on almost
going through a second office, instead of, as now, every Sub-head of your Vote?-I should not say
direct to the Treasury ?--I have already in that we have had any difficult correspondence.
formed the Committee that I think that would 1684. I did not say difficult; but have you
be very much the case. It would be a cause of not had, in point of fact, very long correspon-
great delay, and probably the Trustees would dence with them?-I can hardly give a direct
have a less precise representation of their vicws answer to that question without special cases
by their passing through a circular course.
1675. In regard to the other Votes, it is gene- 1685. Have you not had a long correspondence
rally the case, is it not, that the Minister who with the Treasury about the Establishment part
moves the Vote is the person who is naturally, of your Vote, about the binding part of your
in the House of Commons, the one most con- Vote, about some part of your Vote being reduced
versant with the whole of the circumstances con- in order to get larger sums on others, and so on?
nected with the Vote?Such as the Army -We have had no lengthy correspondence on
and Navy Votes, and similar cases, you mean ? any one of those subjects, to my recollection.
I presume so.
1686. Two or three years ago, I mean?I
1676. And therefore, in that respect, there is only speak with the recollection of five or six
a difference between the British Museum and years.
most of the other Departments, which may per- 1687. But had you not, two or three years ago,
haps account for the difference in the mode in when Lord Frederick Cavendish was at the
which the Vote is made ?-I regard the British Treasury, a great deal of discussion on points of
Museum as in the nature of quite a distinct De- detail? - There was a discussion respecting the
partment in itself; it comprises so many different furniture and the fittings and the buildings;
subjects, each of which is a specialty, that a perhaps it is that which the question refers to.
Minister of General Instruction, to my minů, is 1688. I meant rather some of the Sub-heads
not very likely to be practically conversant with of the ordinary expenditure ? I do not think we
whereas a portion of the Trustees being elected pointed out as unusual at all. The Trustees
(and it should be remembered that the body of make their application for what they think de-
Trustees may always be strengthened by such sirable, and the Treasury are not always able to
election; it is in the power of the Minister chiefly concede it; but their usual plea of late years has
to nominate the Trustees) the Board comprises been the failure of the revenue. During the last
two
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
105
13 May 1884.]
Mr. BOND, LL.D.
[ Continued.
Chairman--continued.
Chairman-continued.
two or three successive years they have rather application in the form they themselves thought
apologised for not granting what was wanted, best, and therefore would press it, perhaps, more
because of the state of the revenue.
according to their own judgment.
1689. Would you prefer, in questions of that
sort, to deal with the Treasury rather than to
Sir John Lubbock.
deal with a Department which would look rather 1693. Your view would be, would it not, that
to other considerations, as well as to the dry
as we have to go to the Treasury sooner or later,
question of the expenditure ?-I can conceive
we are more likely to get what we want by going
that a Minister of Public Instruction would be
direct to the Treasury than by going to the Vice
amiably disposed to the British Museum; but, on President of the Council first E ntly
the other hand, I can conceive that his interests 1694. We should be in danger of having our
might be more concerned with other institutions; Vote cut down first of all by the Vice President
that he might rather put the Museum aside; but,
buty and then subsequently by the Treasury ? - Yes.
as I say, that is an unknown position, and it is
very difficult for us to realize the results.
Chairman.
1590. Do you think that he would look less to
mere economy and the cutting down of the Vote,
1695. You think that worse, having the Vice
and more to the general interests of Art; but President to back you at the Treasury ? --I have
that, on the other hand, you might have rivals in no knowledge of the Vice President, no experience
his affections ?-Possibly.
of dealing with him. I think we can be content
1691. And you would rather fall into the with the difficulties we are accustomed to, and
hands of the cutter down than into the hands of would prefer those to others we do not know the
the Minister who sympathised with that great nature of at all ; and I should be afraid that the
branch of education ? - What I feel is that the change suggested would lead to the destruction
Trustees would better represent their own case to of our present system of government of the
the Treasury than they could through the medium Museuin, which, in my opinion, is one which in
of a third party.
this country, from the nature of the government
1692. Because the Treasury is not supposed to of this country, it is very important to maintain.
have much knowledge of Art?-I would not say
It is rather different from others; it has worked
that; because where there has been a difficulty, well; it has made the growth of the Museum
the Secretary of the Treasury has required my keep pace with the growing wants of the times;
presence, and I have given explanations. I and to alter it may be attended with bad con-
merely mean that the Trustees would put theirs sequences.
Professor T. H. HUXLEY, LL.D., called in ; and Examined.
Sir John Lubbock.
Sir John Lubbock-continued.
1696. I NEED hardly ask, you are the Presi- 1701. It is the case, is it not also, that similar
dent of the Royal Society ?-I am.
opinions were expressed by the Commissions of
1697. And you have paid a great deal of atten- 1861 and 1864 ? ---Yes.
tion now for many years past to the state of 1702. The Endowed Schools Commission, no
public education in this country?-Yes; I was doubt, was appointed to a very great extent on
a member of the Duke of Devonshire's Commis- account of the general state of apathy into which
sion, as you are aware.
the endowed schools bad fallen, and the general
1698. And you are aware that several commis- condition of the schools; but into that point I
sions have inquired into the management of the will not go for a moment; but it has been one
different schools in the country at various times? object of their schemes, has it not, to ensure that
-Yes.
a greater amount of attention should be given
1699. First of all, I think the Commission of to modern languages and to science ? - Yes,
1861 ?-Yes.
I think that there is a distinct provision that
1700. And then there was the Commission of a certain proportion of the marks should be given
1867 ; and then there was the Duke of Devon- to science and modern languages.
shire's Commission, of which you were a member; 1703. Has your attention been directed to a
and there was the Executive Public Schools Return which was presented to Parliament in
Commission, and also the Endowed Schools Com- 1879, showing the hours of study per week
mission; and was it not a main object of all devoted to different subjects of study in public
those commissions to modify to a certain extent schools ?--I have looked at it carefully.
the exclusively, or almost exclusively, classical 1704. Do you think that that Return shows that
character of our public school education, and to the present system has adequately carried out the
introduce a greater amount of attention to modern intentions of the various Royal Commissions
languages and to science? That certainly was which have sat upon the subject ?- Certainly
the case in the Commission of which I was a not. So far as I recollect, on the average there
member. We made very strong recommenda- is not more than two hours a week given to
tions on that head, and gave what I thought science. The proportion given to modern lan-
myself extremely good reasons for introducing a guages I do not exactly recollect at this moment;
much larger and more thorough training in but so far as science is concerned, it is perfectly
physical science into the public schools than at inadequate. Iu 1879 a Return was made to the
present obtains.
House of Commons “ from all Schools having an
0.51.
Endowment
106
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
13 May 1884.]
Professor HUXLEY, LL.D.
[Continued.
500 1. a year;” of the the whole theory based, is wrong
g per week” the school. tionaoms that the subject which the
1 I do not dis with our pres.com top tą
camtos of these schools les that in more than is laid, are luvauin
1
Sir John Lubbock-continued.
Sir John Lubbock-continued.
Endowment of more than 500 l. a year;" "of the mania ; but I do not disguise my conviction that
number of hours of study per week” allotted to the whole theory on which our present educa-
the various subjects of instruction in the school. tional system is based, is wrong from top to
It is not always easy to assure oneself of the bottom; that the subjects which are now put
exact meaning of the figures given in this Re- down as essential, and on which the most stress
turn; but I gather from it that in more than is laid, are luxuries, so to speak; and that those
two-fifths of these schools less than two hours per which are regarded as comparatively unessential
week of school time is allotted to science, while and as luxuries are the essentials. For example,
in a considerable number instruction in science is it is perfectly possible under the present scheme
not attempted. In somewhat more than one- for a young man to have the most costly educa-
fifth of the whole number of the schools more tion that this country affords him, and to be
than two hours is given to science, but five hours totally and absolutely ignorant of English litera-
is very rarely exceeded. I think therefore it is ture, and to be unable to write English decently,
fair to say that, on the average, not more than I mean decently from a literary point of view.
two hours a week were allotted to science in 1879. He has never made English composition or
I have no means of knowing whether any im- English literature a systematic study. Well, I
provement has taken place since that time. In confess that strikes me, considering what a litera-
many of these schools not more than two hours a ture we have and what a language we have, as a
week are given to modern languages and history; deadly harm to literature. I do not object to it
but, on the whole, through the provision made as a man of science, but I object to it on account
for these subjects appear to me to be generally of my admiration for literature. So in respect
inadequate, they are better off than science. of English history, it is perfectly possible for a
1705-6. And I think also that the examinations young man now to obtain the highest honours in
held by the Oxford and Cambridge Examining our Üniversities without having any conception
Board show that lamentably little attention is of the historical growth and development of his
still given to those subjects, the number who own country, and of the political institutions
come in for examination in them under that under which he lives. As to the conditions
Board being so small ?-Yes; according to the of life, the questions of political economy, and
last Report (that for 1882) which I have seen the like, which are of absolute importance to any
out of 60 boys' schools only 23 offered any branch one one who wants to understand the social
of physical science. The total number of papers world in which he is living, there is not the
sent up in the four branches into which physical slightest need that he should ever have mas-
science is divided by the examiners, is 122. As tered the rudiments of them. So that in that
there were 734 candidates not more than about matter science is no worse off than a good many
one-sixth of this number can possibly have offered other important things ; and in advocating a com-
science. But as some of those who offered plete bouleversement of the present system, I should
science may have taken more than one branch, look upon the claims of English literature, of
even this small proportion must be reduced. I history, and of political economy, as of the same
think there can be no doubt that the regulations value as those of physical science. If I could
of the Examining Board tend to handicap science have my own way I would require that there
heavily. But while that is the case, I should be should be a common foundation in such subjects
sorry to have it supposed that I blame the Exa- as those I have just now described required
mining Boarrl, because I do not exactly see what from everybody, and that then they should take
else they are to do in the present state of edu- their choice among groups of other subjects in
cation in the schools; it is a kind of circular which they could show their special knowledge;
evil. The examiners must found their examina- that these who were more particularly interested
tion upon that which is taught in the schools; in languages and literature should take that line;
and then the schools direct their attention to that those in science, that line ; those in history, that
which the examiners require; so that unless some line; and so forth. Our present scheme of ex-
interference takes place by the strong hand, I do aminations is simply adapted to the system of
not see how the vicious circle is to be escaped. public schools. There is no rhyme or reason for
1707. But still, if the Oxford and Cambridge it, that I can understand, except that the subjects
Examining Board have a system which tempts of examination are, such as are taught in the
every one to be examined in the other subjects, public schools.
and imposes difficulties on their being exainined 1709. And a boy may go through our public
in science and in modern languages, that tends schools with great diligence and considerable
to aggravate the evil, does it not?-No doubt it ability, and really need not give more than two
does. No doubt if the Examining Boards gave hours a week, and perhaps not the whole even of
a greater value to science, it would act as a that time, to science, and about the same to
temptation to the schools to modify their system; modern languages ?-Quite so.
and I think they might do that. with very great 1710. And those modern languages in many
advantage.
cases taught not as living, but as dead languages ?
1708. I need hardly ask you, seeing that you I understand that to be the case.
have expressed your wish so often; what you wish 1711. You have expressed the opinion else-
is, not to interfere with classical education, but where that, assuming about 40 hours per week
to have a certain fair share of time given to other to be the normal number devoted to different
subjects ? I have not the slightest desire to in- subjects, 10 hours to classics and ancient history,
terfere with the true study of classics, or indeed of 10 hours to modern languages and history, eight
any other branch of knowledge; I cannot imagine hours to arithmetic and mathematics, six hours to
that anyone could be possessed with such a science and two hours to geography, would be a
fair
1
2
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
107
13 May 1884.]
Professor HUXLEY, LL.D.
[Continued.
Sir John Lubbock-continued.
Sir John Lubbock-continued.
fair and reasonable distribution of that number more valuable. I do not mean to say that it
of hours ; may I ask you, do you still substan- might not be greatly improved; I think that
tially adhere to that opinion ? — Yes. That even then the entire ignoring of physical science
estimate was made a number of years ago, if I is a great mistake; it leaves a man absolutely
recollcct rightly, and when, of course, one had to ignorant of one-half of this world, and especially
take education as it was, as there was no hope of of the tendencies of modern thought and of the
re-modelling it to any great extent; and it modern development of society; but still I think
appeared to me that things being as they were, there is a great deal to be got out of it. But if
that would be a fair demand. I should not like you take that which is the fate of a very large
to say for a moment that I should regard that as proportion of the young men who are sent to our
a final arrangement, but I think it would be fair public schools, who stop there till they are 17 or
for the present. At least, I am quite sure of 18, who never carry their classical studies to such
this, that if scientific training is to come to anya a point that they can read with ease and get
thing, if it is to have its value as a discipline, you into the spirit of the ancient world, and who
must devote not less than that number of hours throw aside the whole thing as soon as they have
to it.
done with it at school, then it appears to me
1712. Do you consider that in the cultivation that their time has been practically lost. And
of the mind it is absolutely necessary to devote a if you consider that in order to do that much in
reasonable amount of time to science; that it classics, they have to give up any adequate
appeals to a different side of the mind from knowledge of modern languages, of physical
literature, and one that requires cultivation as science, of art, of everything else that the world
well as the literary side of our nature ?-Yes. of knowledge presents except classics, it seems to
There are two reasons for that, I think; there is me, I confess, perfectly monstrous. I think four-
the reason of practical utility, that physical science fifths of our young men now are sacrificed for
is constantly acquiring greater and greater im- the minority who go to the universities.
portance in the affairs of the world; and then 1716. But even taking those who go to the
there are two, if I may call them so, philosophical universities, do not you think that of the young
reasons. The one of them is that no man can be men leaving the universities, say at the age of 22
trained in the habit of bringing his mind into or 23, there are a great many walks of life
contact with facts, which is the essential part of which are practically shut out from them by the
the discipline of science, nor can he acquire any exclusive character of their education ; of course,
real idea of the manner of working of this world, I am aware that they may go on for the special
and what are the causes which bring about the studies of universities, but taking those who
various changes which we see in it, unless he has pursue the ordinary university curriculum, do
some practical acquaintance with physical science. not you think that they would be more likely to
Greatly as I value discipline in classical and other be able to find suitable occupations in life if they
studies, if they are carried out thoroughly and had a certain better grounding in science and
effectively, and to their full extent, yet from the modern languages ?-Yes, the present system of
nature of the case it is not possible for them to education operates as you describe in this sense,
bring to bear upon the mind those two particular that it does not open to them, does not give them
kinds of influence.
the chance of finding out the particular line of
1713. The power of observing and seeing with work which interests them, which they could
one's eyes is one of the great factors of success take up with advantage. There are many men
in life ; and that is specially cultivated by in whom the power of becoming scholars does
science ?-I think so.
not exist, but who might do other things very
1714. I presume it is the case that if our young well, and who would find a pleasure and à satis-
men were well grounded in science in the manner faction in taking up other kinds of work; and I
you have described, it would be much easier for think it is a thousand pities that the universities
parents to find them occupations afterwards in do not offer alternative careers of that kind. I
life, both at home and in our own Colonies and in do not mean to say for one moment that I think,
foreign countries, than it is under the present taking the average of mankind, there is any-
system of education ?-So far as my observation body who is not fit, if he is properly taught,
goes, the truth is that except for men who to learn anything; a man of average faculties
follow up their public school life by a uni- may be trained in one direction to literature or
versity career, when the present training may in another direction to science; and he (ught to
be of extreme value, most of the time spent at be able to devote himself to either if he is pro-
school is lost. Putting that exception aside, I perly taught. I should not like either literature
am free to confess that I look upon the greater or science to be made a kind of refuge for the
number of the school years spent by our young destitute, for those who cannot do anything else.
men at our great schools as absolutely lost. But quite apart from that, every one has his
1715. When you speak of a university career, special proclivities; and the fact that English
you mean not merely taking a degree at the young men are practically shut out from indulging
university, but devoting the rest of life to their proclivities towards concrete pursuits, towards
university pursuits ?-If a young man passes science, that is to say, is I think a great mistake,
from a public school to a university, and then 1717–18. On the other hand, considering the
goes through the sort of training that he may vast amount of British capital invested in foreign
obtain at one of the best of our colleges, I think countries in railways and mines and docks and
it is an extremely valuable thing for him, and thousands of other forms of enterprise, is it not
taking the conditions of life to be what they are very desirable that we should have the power of
I think there are very few trainings which are selecting from amongst our young countrymen,
0.51.
02
men
cije714. I presumeinded in science ich easier for
Follow up thei when the pres the time spent, I
u mean but devoting a young mand then
108
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE.
13 May 1884.]
Professor HUXLEY, LL.D.
[Continued.
Sir John Lubbock-continued.
Sir John Lubbock-continued.
men conversant with the languages of different machinery by which we are able to ascertain
countries, and having a groundwork which might whether the instructions that we give to the
enable them to take up the special knowledge head master are carried out. I have taken a
which is required for any particular enterprise ? great deal of interest in the scientific teaching
-Yes, that is one of the most curious features of there; my colleagues have been kind enough to
our civilization, I think. One sees the effect of listen to various suggestions of mine, and have
it in commercial life. Some years ago I was at gone to considerable expense to build schools for
Bradford, and I remember being told there that the teaching of science; but I do not know at
the English clerk was being superseded to a great this moment, and I am not aware that I have,
extent by the German clerk; that is to say, officially, any right to inquire, the extent to
the German, systematically taught English and which the work is carried out and done there.
Freuch, is able to come over here and beat the We have no right of inspection or investigation,
English clerk on his own ground. The English- so far as I know.
man, on the other hand, has not the ghost of a
1722. Then you think some form of periodical
chance of doing anything of the kind in Germany
report bearing upon these subjects would be
or France.
extremely desirable?- I think so.
1719. Then the general result of our educa-
tion, in your point of view, is that on the one
1723. And probably that if the light of public
hand it tends to shut out young Englishmen from
opinion was brought to bear upon the subject,
a great number of occupations in life for which,
there would be a better chance of obtaining
otherwise, they would be remarkably fitted ; and
some change in the system such as you have
that, on the other hand, it tends to diminish the
indicated, than we have at present ?- I think
chances of success of a great many of the British
that would be an advantage; but I must also
enterprises in various parts of the world, by
add that it appears to me that in the public
limiting the field of selection of young men open
schools the difficulty is of exactly the same kind
to those persons, and compelling them to employ
as I mentioned before in regard to the examina-
foreigners, of whom they are not able to ascertain
tions conducted by the Oxford anul Cambridge
so much beforehand, and who are not so satisfac-
Examining Board; that is to say, that not only the
tory as their own countrymen would be ?-Not
public schoolmaster looks to the university, but
only so, but it is a distinct injury of another
the parents look to the university, and many of
kind.
them think it an important thing that their boys
1720, But you do agree with that so far, do you
should be able to obtain the distinctions which the
not?-I agree with that so far. But I was going
university has to offer, and not merely the dis-
to add another very great disadvantage: that at
tinctions, but the very important aids to their main-
the present time, when the intellectual activity of
tenance which the university gives. It is possible
Germany is something which the world has never
for a clever boy to obtain by his own efforts during
seen the like of before; when in all directions,
the whole time of his university career, an income
whether historical, or literary, or scientific, no
sufficient to maintain him at the university; but
man can know what is going on in the world at
so far as I know (I do not think that there is any
this present time unless he knows German: he is exception to what I say, he can only do it by taking
shut out from this sphere of intellectual activity.
up classics or mathematics; it is not possible to do
1721. And do not you think it would be very
it in any other direction. Then you see the posi-
desirable that the country should, as far as pos.
tion in which the head master of a public school
sible, know what the class of education given in
is placed : “ To fulfil the expectations of parents,
its different schools is, so that parents might be
and to do justice to the boys, I must give them
in a position, in selecting a school for their sons, a thorough training in that sort of work which
to know the kind of training which they will
will tell at the university; otherwise they
receive at it. I ask you the question with refe-
conestion with refe will get nothing for their work, while those
rence to a point that has been brought before us who have taken to the classical line will be main-
here several times, whether it would not be
tained and rewarded and distinguished.” So long
desirable that there should be some report made,
as that state of things exists, I do not really see
from time to time, upon the endowed schools, so what the head masters are to do.
that Parliament and the country might be able 1724. You also said that you thought it was de-
to judge how far they are carrying out the sirable that some report should be made from time
schemes which have been laid down, and what the to time with regard to the endowed schools.
nature of the education given in them is, so that There has been a little difference between the en-
a parent about to send a son to school might dowed schools and the public schools, owing to the
have some reasonable means of knowing, what at different Acts of Parliament under which the
present he can only possibly acquire by hearsay, governing bodies are constituted; but I presume,
as to what the character of the education is from that point of view, you would not consider
which his son is about to receive? I think that there was any difference between what is techni-
would be highly desirable; not only so, but there cally called an endowed school and the public
appears to me to be another great defect in our schools; your idea would be that allschools possess-
present organisation; that is, so far as I know, ing endowments should make some returns from
although the Governing Body may give orders, time to time, giving information as to the general
there is next to no means, no official means, of position of the school, and the course of study,
knowing whether its orders are carried out. As and so on ?.-Yes; whether by a system of inspec-
a member of the Governing Body of Eton, for tion or by any other system, would be a matter
example, I am not at all sure, and I have never for further discussion, but I think something of
been able to discover, that there is any official the kind should be done.
1725. When
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
109
13 May 1884.7
Professor HUXLEY, LL.D.
[ Continued.
Chairman.
Chairman-continued.
1725. When you say that you think this infor- 1731. So that the selection of examiners should
mation should be given to the public, and that in not, in your opinion, lie either with the univer-
the public are included parents who wish to sities or with a public department, but with the
select a school for their children, do you think governing body, itself, of the school ?-I am not
that that requires the intervention of a public at all sure that it might not be a good plan to
departinent having cognizance of the higher adopt both methods, that is to say, to allow the
educational questions? - It does not occur to me school to appoint its examiners, and to have a
how it could be done otherwise with advantage. second set of examiners, as coadjutors appointed
1726. Then, assuming that we have now an either by the state or by the universities; I
Education Department for Great Britain, so believe that would be the fairest and the most
called (I leave Irelanci out for the moment), which impartial way of all.
looks after the primary education, which also 1732. That, you think, would secure that the
looks after some matters of very high education system in force at the school was verified, and the
in respect of science and art, would you give to results known to the public ?-I think so.
that department the general responsibility of 1733. But how, then, would you reform the
keeping the public informed as to the public and educational system which you have pointed out to
endowed schools, and, through their officers, us as, in your opinion, so very defective?-I do not
ascertaining in what condition the education given imagine that that can be done until public opinion
there was ?--I think it would be extremely useful. has altered very much. Within my recollection
I do not see why such a department should not the alteration which has taken place has been
publish a directory of the public schools, for extraordinary; change is still taking place with
example, of the same character as the directory great rapidity. I think that in justice to the
which is published by the Science and Art De- public schools and the universities, they should
partment now, where every information is given be allowed a considerable initiative in making
about the courses of instruction in science and art changes.
under the department. I should think it would be 1734. Then, having laid down the principle of
a very great advantage to persons wishing to ob- the reform which you would like to see carried
tain information, if they could have authoritative out, you would trust for its fulfilment mainly to
information of that kind from a public department. public opinion, and to informing public opinion,
1727. There are two ways, are there not, in through the publication of facts by the Education
which the efficiency of a public school can be Department, and also through an examination of
tested by examinations ; on an examination into the mixed character which you have suggested ?
its organisation, and the other an examination — Yes, but I would give public opinion a lever
into results, through the personal examination of through the State.
the pupils. Would you use both those methods 1735. Would you just explain that to us; how
in the Education Department ?-I am not quite " through the State" ?-By placing the whole of
sure that I understand what the second alter these bodies which depend more or less upon
native would be practically,
public funds under the control of a Minister of
1728. I did not suggest it as an alternative at Education, who, without unnecessary meddling,
all; but there are two distinct branches of the as time went on, would keep a continual pressure
question: one an examination into the organi- upon these educational bodies in the sense of
sation of the school, the other an examination public opinion.
into results, which is carried out best by the per- 1736. That, after all, is public opinion focussed
sonal examination of pupils. Would you put in the most simple and convenient way?-Yes.
both those duties in the responsibility of a public 1737. But you would really trust mainly to
department?-It would involve the appointing public opinion, rather than to any active inter-
of a body of examiners by the public department vention on the part of the department of the
to examine the schools.
Government ?-No; I am supposing that the
1729. Either the appointment of those exam- department of the Government had at its head a
iners, or the introduction of some other body to sagacious and an influential Minister, with a seat
appoint them, in whom the public department in the Cabinet, enabling him to give the greatest
had confidence ?-I think it would make a very force to his views which a Minister can give.
essential difference which plan was adopted. Then I think it should be his business to judge
1730. But if you had the matter to decide, the direction in which the educational necessities
what do you think would be the best organisation of the time are tending, and, by degrees, by
to secure in that respect the efficiency of public distinct regulation occasionally, if necessary, to
schools ?-I should say undoubtedly an indepen- force upon these bodies, if they would not initiate
dent examination of some kind, such as there it voluntarily, a modification of their educational
exists at present. At this present time the public system in the desired direction.
schools are examined by persons who are appointed, 1738. For instance, you have spoken of the
in all cases, if I recolleet rightly, by the govern- insufficient number of hours given to science and
ing bodies, and who are members of the different to modern languages; would you give the Minis-
universities ; and I am not sure that that is not ter the power to insist upon more time being
the best way of doing it, because I think the given to science and more to modern languages
universities are more thoroughly in sympathy and more time to literature ?-I should put him
with the work of the school. To examine pro- in the place of the Commissioners who determined
perly, you must have people who not only know these things, to start with. The minima vere
the subject of examination, but who understand laid down by the Commissioners of the en-
how the examinees are taught, and what may dowed schools; and I should put him in that
fairly be expected from them.
position and give him the power of saying, You
0.51.
03
shall
110
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
13 May 1884.]
Professor HUXLEY, LL.D.
[Continued.
Chairman.-continued.
Chairman--continued.
shall give such a time to such a subject, and such could be worse ; but I think in practice it would
a time to such another; and furthermore, I would be found that any governing body which, so to
give him the power of seeing that that order is speak, defied the Minister and objected to obey
carried out.
his direction, would be compelled by public
1739. Have you considered well the danger of opinion to show shuch very good ground for its
producing or insisting upon too great a uniformity proceedings that there would be no danger of any
in public schools if such power were given to the real harm being done.
Minister ?-Yes, I am no lover of cut-and-dried 1747. The danger I am indicating is the
systems, especially in education ; but I almost opposite danger, that the governing body would
hope that the governing bodies being preserved become sluggish and indifferent when a powerful
(I am always supposing that the governing Minister exercised his influence, and that gradu-
bodies of the schools should be preserved), con- ally the Minister would be the governing body ?
sidering the importance of these educational I do not think that would be the result if care
bodies as corporations, they could effectually resist were taken in the appointment of persons to the
any tendency towards too great uniformity. governing body. I think that would have to be
: 1740, Then, of course, you would give the carefully considered. At the present time, on
governing bodies themselves much more power the Eton governing body, there are a certain
than apparently the governing body of Eton has, number of ex-officio members. I was appointed
if, as you have described it, it does not itself by the Royal Society some four or five years ago
know how far its rules are being carried out?-I as their representative; and I think, so long as
should not like to say that it does not know; what you have upon the governing bodies men of
I meant to say was, that, so far as I am aware, it independent position of that kind, and so long as
has no official means of knowing. Of course in pro- England remains what it is, and English life
perly administered bodies there are always means what it is, there is no fear of too great a sub-
of knowing what is going on, but we at Eton serviency on the part of governing bodies.
have no official means of information, as far as I 1748. Then with that qualification of inter-
know.
posing between the Minister and the school a
1741. And you would give them those ?I really efficient governing body, you would put the
would give them those.
whole of the education of the country within the
1742. You woulil then have a strong Minister responsibility of the Minister ? — Within the re-
with an effective Department, exercising the same sponsibility of the Minister, but upon the clear
supervision over higher education (I am not understanding that it should be the Minister's
speaking of universities) as it does now over conception of his duty that he should do as little
primary education, only interposing between the as possible ; that his business is not to interfere
Minister and the schools effective governing and reduce the whole educational system of the
bodies ?-Yes.
country to one dead level, but to correct abuses.
1743. And you think that the interposition of 1749. As a rule, the danger of going beyond
these bodies would secure us from a dead level of what is necessary is not so much in the Minister
uniformity ?-I think so.
as in his Department, is it not?-- What little I
1744. Is not there some danger that in the have seen of English official life has impressed
long run the Minister would become the more me very much, in this sense, that the English
powerful of the two, as between him and the official, so far as I know, is the only official
governing body?-I think that is the case where person who never wants to meddle if he can help
a Minister controls funds; but where he does not, it. When he does meddle he is generally pushed
I do not think there is very much fear of it. If into it by external pressure.
a governing body can say, “Well, we do not like 1750. Do you speak now of the subordinate or
your proposal, and do not see why we should the superior official?-So far as my experience
carry it out," of course they would not say that goes, speaking of the chief officers, whether per-
unless under very strong pressure, and unless manent or otherwise, of all the Departments of
they had their own decided convictions ; then, I English official life, they do not want to meddle,
think the Minister, unless he can cut off their and if ever they do, they are driven into it by
funds, is rather at bay.
outside pressure.
1745. Would you put a Minister into that 1751. By Parliament, do you mean? - Or
powerful position, and give him no authority to some other outside pressure.
prescribe the financial division of money upon 1752. There are some departments, are there
different subjects, as well as the time to be not, which have gradually drawn to themselves a
devoted to the different subjects ?-No, I think large amount of business, quite unheard of some
that would be a matter in which he would do years ago ?-It strikes me, from what I have
mischief by interfering.
seen, that when that has occurred it has been
1746. Then you would not fear such a state of the expression and result of a popular cry of
things as exists in France, which was thus des- some sort or another.
cribed by the Minister of Public Education some 1753. And you do not think that that danger
years ago, that he could say, when he held up his is much to be apprehended in the formation of a
finger at a particular moment, “All over France great Education Department, having such func-
such-and-such a study is going on at this instant;" tions as you have indicated ?--I do not think so,
you do not think there is much practical danger always supposing that the organisation of the
of that under your plan ?-If I thought that, if I governing bodies remains the same, or even as
had to choose between that condition of things amended in the sense of placing more men of in-
and the present chaos, I should choose the chaos. dependent position and special knowledge upon
I think that would be extremely bad ; nothing them.
1754. I think
.
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
111
13 May 1884.]
Professor HUXLEY, LL.D.
[Continued.
yo chied to an ee should be
grant, atip: The to be
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
1754. I think Sir John Lubbock alluded to 1766. It is a fixed sum at the present moment,
various Commissions having reference to educa- is it not?-It is a fixed sum of 4,000 l. a year.
tion and to science; some of their recommenda 1767. It formerly was less, was it not?-A
tions remain barren to this day, do they not? good many years ago a grant was made by Lord
Yes, I believe so.
John Russell of 1,000 1. a year, which was to be
1755. For instance, some of the recommenda- administered by the Royal Society. The only
tions of the Duke of Devonshire's Commission condition attached to the grant, at least the con-
remain barren to this day?-I should say a dition that was always carried out in practice,
considerable number.
was that it should be applied to an expenditure
1756. Some of the intentions, I will not say for apparatus, and the like; that there should be
recommendations of the Endowed Schools Com- no personal application of the money. Then
mission remain barren to this day ?-I believe some years ago, very much upon the strength of a
SO.
recommendation male by the Duke of Devon-
1757. Because although Parliament gave them shire's Commission, a further sum of 4,000 1., mak-
the power of organisation, there has been no ing altogether 5,000 l., was placed at the disposal
means of ascertaining whether the schemes of the of the Royal Society, to be administered by them;
Endowed Schools Commissioners have borne and with this distinction, that a part of it, such
fruit or not?-I believe that to be the case. part as the Royal Society thought fit to recom-
1758. You and I have served upon one or two mend, might be given for personal expenses, might
Commissions together as colleagues. Sometime be, in fact, a kind of fellowship, if one may call
ago, a good many years ago, we served upon a it so. One might give a man 200 l., or 300 l., to
University Commission ?-Yes.
maintain him while he was at work. Subsequently
1759. Úp to this moment, though we have some a little change has taken place, and that 5,000 1.
hopes, no fruits have yet been borne from our has been reduced to 4,0001.
labours ?- None whatever.
1768. There is a Vote with which you have
1760. Do not you think that if there was a very indirect connection, is there not, the
Minister of Education of high rank, and in the Meteorological Vote?-That Meteorological Vote
Cabinet, it would be his duty, as a great public is 10,0001. a year; and the way we are con-
officer, to look into the recommendations of these nected with that is this : The Royal Society ap-.
various Commissions, and see that those that were points the Committee which manages it; having
worthy of adoption should be adopted by the appointed the Committee we have nothing further
public ?- Certainly ; I think that is the case with to do with it, except that the Committee reports
regard to all Commissions that I have seen. I to us.
have unfortunately served on a very great num 1769. Is that Report laid before Parliament?
ber, and it appears to me that alter the Commis- -The Report is laid before the Council of the
sion has made its report, the report is put into a Royal Society to start with, and then it is sent
pigeon hole, and unless there is somebody who in from the Royal Society to the Government,
thinks hie can make a little political capital out and, I imagine, is laid before Parliament.
of it, it is never looked at again.
1770. Now, if there were any difficulties con-
1761. There being no direct Minister responsi- nected with the administration of any portion of
ble for science and art to look out and see whether the Vote which you have, of the 4,000 l., who
the recommendations should be brought into would be the person to explain in Parliament, or
operation for the benefit of the public ? --I think to defend, that administration ?- Formerly it was
that very unfortunate.
the Lord President who had it in charge; it was
under the Department of Science and Art; but
1762. Take the case of the society over which
at present it is directly under the Treasury.
you preside, the Royal Society, at the present
1771. Do not you think, in the case of out-
moment you receive certain grants for researches
lying votes of that kind, it would be desirable to
in science ?-Permit me to put it in another way.
move them, supposing there was a Minister of
We administer them, we do not receive them.
Education, by that Minister of Education, who
We receive nothing; we administer.
would probably be more in sympathy with the
1763. But a certain amount of money is placed
objects than by the Treasury direct? I think a
at your disposal for administration ?-Yes, we
Vote of that kind would obviously come under
are asked by the Government to undertake the
the Minister of Education, if there were one.
labour and responsibility of administering it.
1772. I think you recommended, in the Duke
1764. Do not you think it is very desirable
of Devonshire's Commission, that there should
that the public should have some means of
be a separate Minister of Science. I suppose
knowing the benefits which have resulted from
you do not think the state of public opinion in
these researches, and that it would be an en-
the country would go to that extent at the pre-
couragement for prosecuting them more vigour-
eent moment?- Did we go beyond the recom-
ously in the future ?-It would be very desirable
mendation of a Minister of Public Instruction ?
that the public should have that knowledge.
I should have preferred a Minister of Public
There would be a good many practical difficulties,
Instruction, under whatever name.
I think, in carrying it out, if you went further
than the enumeration of, let us say the memoirs
Mr. Herbert.
published as the result of the funds placed at the
disposal of the persons who have been subsidised. 1773. You are a member of the Governing
1765. And the subjects on which researches Body at Eton, you have told us ?-Yes.
have been made ?-And the subjects on which 1774. I should like to know who dictates the
researches have been made.
curriculum of study there?--The Governing Body.
04
1775. You
0.51.
it again.
20y dany porn who
112
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
13 May 1884.]
Professor HUXLEY, LL.D.
[ Continued.
Mr. Herbert-continued.
Mr. Herbert-continued.
1775. You have power to dictate to the head might enforce them ?-I think what a Minister
master which hours should be devoted to which would do under those circumstances might be
study ? - IVe can order that a certain subject shall to write to a Governing Body he thought in
be taught efficiently, and I think I am right in fault, and express his views very strongly, and if
saying that we can prescribe the number of hours the Governing Body did not assent, he would
of schooltime which shall be allotted to it; but have many ways of bringing public opinion to
the details of the arrangements of the school lie bear upon them; and they must be very much
in the province of the head master. Practically, in the right to be able to resist him.
I need hardly say that the Governing Body 1785. But you would not like him to have
always consults the head master when any the power of constituting or altering the consti-
change is proposed, and gives every consideration tution of that Governing Body ?-No.
to his views.
· 1776. But you say you have no official power
Mr. James Campbell.
at present by which you can find out whether your
orders are carried out ?-Of course, if we have 1786. You expressed a strong opinion against
any doubt upon that subject we can call the head the present system of public school education ?-
master before us and question him on the subject. I should like to put it in another way, that the
1777. You have the power of doing that ? universities, being what they are, and public
Yes, we can do that.
opinion being what it is now, the public school
system is pretty much an expression of that; but
Sir John Lubbock.
I do not think it good in the abstract.
1778. And you have the power of dismissal, I
1787. And that the curriculum of study is
quite too narrow for general purposes ?-I should
think?— We have the power of dismissal.
say, whether it is narrow or broad, that the
Mr. Herbert.
relative importance assigned to the different
topics of education is badly distributed; that
1779. Then would you propose, in any altera- things which are of no great moment to the
tion that is made, that that power should be taken ordinary man are made of very great importance,
away from the Governing Body, or would you while those which are extremely important are
still vest in the Governing Body that power of either entirely neglected or are left in insig-
dictating the curriculum ? –Certainly.
nificance.
1780. You would propose that tlie Governing 1788. Is not the system founded on the
Body should still dictate what subjects should be opinion that the classisal and mathematical
studied, and send in a yearly or half-yearly studies are the best general basis of education ?
report to a Minister of Education ?-Yes; that -- Whether it is founded upon that conscious
is a matter of detail I have not thought about, opinion, or whether the conscious opinion has
but I see no present objection to that course. grown out of the system, I am not quite sure ;
1781. But you would object to the Minister but it is a historical fact, that 200 or 300 years
of Education dictating to the Governing Body ago the best knowledge of everything in this
'what they should ciictate to the school ?-I should world was to be got in Latin and Greek, and
object to the Minister of Public Instruction if a man did not know Latin and Greek he
doing so. I think he would be very unwise if could not have that knowledge; and that state
he went further than to see that there was a of things lasted a considerable time, in fact until
certain minimum of work done in all public the growth of modern literature and modern
schools. My notion of the intervention of the science; and the present state of education in
State goes no further than seeing that certain the public schools is, I should venture to say, a
essential things are attended to in a certain fair purvival of a state of civilisation which is now
proportion; but I think a Minister of Public In- practically at an end, and which has been super-
struction would be very unwise if he attempted seded by a new one.
to meddle with the special regulations of each 1789. Do I rightly understand that it is your
school, because they very often depend upon all opinion that even for those who hold that mathe-
sorts of local conditions.
matical and classical studies form the best basis
1782. Do not you think it would be rather of education, it would be desirable that there
dangerous if any Act of Parliament were passed should be some change ?-- I think it is extremely
which would give a power to any Minister of desirable. I think it unfortunate that a very
Education to force his will with regard to these large proportion of the men who will exercise
questions on the different endowed schools ?-- more or less influence in this world should be
I hardly think it. The position of the endowed absolutely unreachable by any arguments deduced
schools is a very strong one, and I doubt very from that which is the great factor in modern
much whether any Minister would attempt to thought, I mean science. They do not know
meddle with them beyond a wholesome point. anything about it, and they do not honestly be-
1783. You said before, if I understand you lieve in its importance; they think it is a
rightly, that you did not think the Minister modern fad.
would interfere with these schools, because he 1790. Your opinion is, that a reasonable amount
would have no control of the monetary matters of classical education is not incompatible with
connected with them?-Quite so.
having a general education in science, in addition?
1784. Do not you think that if a Minister were Certainly not. The great luminaries of
very anxious to control Education, and had very classical literature were acquainted with the
strong ideas of his own upon the subject, he science of their time. People who study Aris-
totle's
of Edthey shoe Minhen
e by and at facto do not to be
medide whether or strong position or schoolskose
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
113
13 May 1884.]
Professor HUXLEY, LL.D.
[Continued.
Mr. James Campbell-continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
totle's ethical, literary, or philosophical works, about it. I should not care much about his sym-
and think they are acquainting themselves with pathies, if one had something to appeal to on the
all the knowledge of antiquitv, constantly forget side of reason. What one unfortunately finds in
that he was essentially, and before all things, a having to appeal to some Ministers is that they
naturalist, and wrote some of the most remark- have not the smallest notion of what you are
able scientific treatises in branches of pure science talking of; there is nothing in them to appeal to.
that ever were written. All that is very com- 1797. That their education has been of such a
monly lost sight of when people talk of classical kind and character, that though themselves men
learning.
of talent, they have no natural understanding of
1791. Then your opinion is that classical the subject brought before them ?-Not the most
instruction might be given without interfering elementary conception of it. If you go to such a
with scientific ?-Yes.
Minister and talk about some discovery of an an-
1792. And without danger of any overpres- cient work of art, whether he is fond of art, or
sure ? —Yes.
whether he is not, he knows something about it,
1793. You think, perhaps, that the variety of and understands what it means ; but the chances
studies might rather lighten the pressure?-Yes; are, if you go about a question of science he does
I see no necessity for an increase of pressure. not know ; he would not be astonished to hear of
Let me say this, that I have some doubts a project for discovering that the sun went round
whether you can, under such a system as I have the earth by way of a change.
suggested, get the peculiar and special product 1798. And no person could, in the opinion of
has a genius for making verses. I suspect you who at all events could not understand that?-I
must catch him very young, and train him for it, think so.
and leave him little time for other things; but 1799. And who had not a general sym-
that is not what I mean by the study of ancient pathy with the advancement of knowledge ?-I
literature.
think so.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Chairman.
1800. May I put it in this way, that you think
1794. As well as being President of the Royal
Society, you have formerly been President of
the British Association ?-Yes.
discuss questions with essentially scientific people,
1795. Is it not the case that both the Royal
in a Minister of Education than at the Treasury ?
Society and the British Association have fre-
I should think so. I presume that anyone who
quently to approach the Government upon
is made Minister of Education will be known to
various subjects connected with the interests of
have given his mind to questions of that kind,
science ?—That is quite true; and not only so,
and to have fitted himself for dealing with them.
but a very considerable portion of the business of
the Royal Society of late years has consisted in
Sir John Lubbock.
dealing with subjects brought before them by the
Government.
1801. I think the Return shows, does it not,
1796. Would it be of advantage to these that there are a certain number of endowed
bodies to have a Minister who stands in sympathy schools of some importance in which no science
with the objects which they have to recommend, or modern language at present is taught at all ?
rather than to go to Ministers, in the first place, --There are some, I believe.
who have no official sympathy with their recom 1802. And a very considerable number in
mendations ?—I should like best to have to deal which not two hours a week are given to each of
with a clear-headed man who knew something those subjects ?-I think the majority.
Mr. FREDERICK WILLIAM BURTON, F.S.A., called in; and Examined.
Chairman.
Chairman-continued.
1803. You are the principal officer of the Na. 1805. What would you say on the part of the
tional Gallery, I think?-I am the Director of National Gallery ?-As far as the National Gal-
the National Gallery. I am the only respon- lery is concerned, in my opinion it would rather
sible paid officer of the National Gallery.
take away the responsibility and the indepen-
1804. One of the questions which has been dence of the Trustees and the Director in whom
discussed by this Committee is whether it would the management is at present constituted.
be desirable that bodies like the Trustees of the 1806. You are not exactly in the same posi-
British Museum and the authorities of the tion as the British Museum, I think, your Esti-
National Gallery should deal with a Minister mates being moved by the Secretary to the
such as a Minister of Public Instruction, rather Treasury ?-Yes.
than deal with the Treasury direct, when they 1807. Not by one of the Trustees ?-Not by
have to approach the Government. You have one of the Trustees.
heard probably what Mr. Bond said on that sub- 1808. And therefore, so far, you are more
ject on the part of the British Museum ?-Yes. under a public department than they are ; as a
0.51,
department
114
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
13 May 1884.]
Mr. Burton, F.S.A.
[Continued.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
department is responsible for your Estimates, Director act alone, without the concurrence of the
you are not quite as independent of the Govern Trustees ?-If he chooses to exercise the power
ment as the British Mnseum is.
he can do so.
1809. All the details of your business, if they 1815. And he can overrule the Trustees?-He
involve money, come, and come constantly, I can override any decision of the Trustees, accord-
think, under the attention of the Treasury ? - ing to the constitution of the Gallery since 1855.
They come directly under the attention of the As a matter of fact, it has never come to that,
Treasury.
as far as I know; certainly within my time it
1810. Would it be, in your opinion, then, ad has never occurred that there has been any col-
vantageous to the public service, and to your lision between the Trustees and the Director
branch of it, if one may use the expression, that which would have obliged the Director to exercise
you should discuss those details with a body re- his power. Perhaps I may go on to state that
sponsible for the Department of Science and Art, since this system has been tried for 30 years,
rather than with a body like the Treasury, which and has been found extremely efficient, that no
has no special art knowledge or art responsi- breakdown has occurred, that no faults have
bility ?-I think, as I said before, that it would been found, and that really no practical difficul-
take away the independent action of the Trustees ties have arisen in any of the deliberations at the
and the Director, and interfere with their power Board of the National Gallery, it appears to
of deliberation. I think they would always be me that it would be a pity to interfere with well
under the feeling that they were liable to be in order to make it better. I cannot conceive
defeated in their purposes by the Minister of that the interposition of a Minister of Public
Public Instruction, or by those whom he might Education or Instruction between the Board of
consult.
the National Gallery and the Treasury would be
1811. Why more defeated by him than de- of any effective use; it would simply impose
feated by the Treasury under the present system ? another element of red tape and circumlocu-
-For very much the same reason as that which tion.
I think Professor Huxley mentioned, that such a
Minister would have a great many things to con-
Sir Lyon Playfuir.
sider, and a great many different departments 1816. You said you thought it would be a
appealing to him; and I think it would perhaps pity to interfere with the responsibility of the
depend a great deal then upon the character of Director. To whom is the Director responsible?
the man, and his knowledge on required subjects, --To the Treasury, who have appointed him,
whether one department got an equal hearing and to Parliament.
with another.
1817. You said also that you thought that a
1812. The question which I put to Mr. Bond Minister of Education could not be found pos-
will serve, perhaps, for you. You would rather sessing all kinds of knowledge, so that it would
have to deal with a Minister who had not neces- be advisable to go to him on questions connected
sarily an efficient experience of your department with the National Gallery. Are you likely to
than with one who had, but under whom you might find in the Secretary of the Treasury a person
have rivals ?-I find it difficult to conceive of a possessed of all kinds of knowledge ? Certainly
Minister who would have that amount of know- not.
ledge in all departments of human culture, which 1818. Then why apprehend danger in one case
would render him equally capable of judging of a and not in the other ?-I think the Secretary to
question of science and a question of art, and a the Treasury would be more likely to act impar-
question of education. Such a man might be tially.
found; but I should think it would be difficult to 1819. Is not the Secretary of the Treasury
find him, and it would be still more difficult to there to guard the national purse, and is not
find a succession of such men.
that the first and the main motive with which he
1813. Then, practically, in the interests of is placed there ?-I presume so.
that branch of art with which you are particu- 1820. Would not the Minister of Education be
larly connected, you would prefer to leave things placed in that position primarily to promote the
alone, and to trust to the tender mercies of the interests of art and science ?- He would be
Treasury, rather than to have interposed be placed there for that purpose, I presume.
tween you and the Treasury a department in- 1821. And if he had sufficient distinction to
terested in the promotion of art?-If you could be placed there by public opinion (for the opinion
be sure that the department was really interested of the Prime Minister who places him there must
in the promotion of art it would be another thing. represent that), is it not likely that he would
Of course, I know that every means would be have more sympathy with art and science than
taken to secure that; but then it appears to me one who was selected to tie up the strings of the
that since the Director of the National Gallery is public purse ?-He might have sympathy with
the sole responsible person there with regard to it; the question is whether he would have any
the question of purchases, it would take away knowledge.
his responsibility completely. He is a paid 1822. Is he not more likely, under such cir-
officer, whereas the Trustees are not paid ; there- cumstances, to have knowledge than the Secre-
fore he is solely responsible; the Trustees have tary of the Treasury, who is not selected because
only a certain moral honorary responsibility, but of any knowledge of art and science ?-I do not
he has that aniouut of responsibility that he alone know who is to be the judge there, who is to be
is punishable in case of any mistake being made. the keeper of the keeper; because a gentleman
1814. I was not aware of that. Can the would be appointed to that position on a certain
reputation ;
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND. ART (ADMINISTRATION).
115
13 May 1884.]
Mr. BURTON, F.S.A.
[Continued.
osen there had
that knómenner; if it is not be picked up i
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
Mr. Herbert-continued,
reputation; it might depend a great deal upon that the study of art is a study which requires a
whether that reputation was well founded in all lifetime. It is one that cannot be picked up in a
directions.
dillétanté manner; if it is, in the uses to which
1823. But he would not be placed there had that knowledge may be put, it may be dan-
he not the reputation of being a person who could gerously applied. I think, therefore, that it is
guard the interests of art and science ; would not better that there should be a responsible officer
that necessarily be so? He would have that in the department, or responsible officers, and
reputation, no doubt.
that they should communicate directly with the
gentleman who, at all events, is entirely impartial,
1824. But the Secretary of the Treasury need
and who does not pretend to have any knowledge
not have that reputation at all ?-I presume he
whatever upon the subject. If the officer who is
need not.
at the head of a department, or the officers who
1825. Then it resolves itself into this: that manage it (whether there is a principal and a
the Director of the National Gallery is to be subordinate, or whether there is only one) are
responsible to the public through whom; through capable of the duties which they are put there to
a person who has necessarily no knowledge of the perform, and if they are supposed to be men of
subject over which he exercises his administra- character and honour, I think then their recom-
tive faculties ?-If you will allow me to say so, mendation may be relied upon without the in-
it appears to me that your question goes upon termediation of any Minister of Public Instruc-
the theory that the Minister appointed to the tion.
office you speak of would be absolutely omnis-
1830. You think, therefore, that the position
cient; he must know all subjects better than the
in which the Director and the Trustees of the
appointed officer of the particular department,
National Gallery now stand is better for the
or the appointed officers of departments.
Gallery itself than it would be if any alteration
1826. No; the question is not that; the ques- were made ?–1 think it is better for the National
tion assumes that the Director retains his re- Gallery than any other system that I could
sponsibility, and that the Trustees retain their think of.
administrative powers, whatever they are; but
1831. Better for its efficiency ?-Better for
the question is to whom Parliament should look
its efficiency. I think it affords more guarantees
if there is any question of the administration of
against anything like jobbery, or intrigue, or
those Votes, to defend them, or to admit that they
corruption of any kind than any other system
have been erroneous, in the House of Commons.
that I know of ; in fact, it is almost impossible,
Is not the man who is appointed with a supposed
as it is constituted at present, that there should
knowledge of science and art, or as represent-
be anything of the kind now. Its extreme
ing science and art in the House, the more
simplicity appears to me one of its great ad-
likely person to give good information to the
vantages.
House; or is it the Secretary of the Treasury,
who knows nothing about it?- That is a ques-
1832. The present system has been going on
tion on which I have very considerable doubt;
for how long ?-Since 1855. Originally the
I still do not see that there is any guarantee
Gallery, after it was constituted at all, that is
that he would be able to give better answers than
in 1824, was placed under six trustees, who had
the Secretary of the Treasury.
really only an honorary sort of responsibility,
1827. Do you think that the Secretary of the
Then I think that number was extended to 17
(if I recollect rightly, according to the history,
Treasury would do better; do you think that
because that is not within my own recollection),
the Secretary of the Treasury, who is not selected
some of whom were ex officio. That system was
with a view to advance science and art, would
found not to answer at all; nobody had any
have more influence in the House on these ques-
tions than a Minister of Education, if he was
responsibility; mistakes were made ; pictures
were bought solely by the Trustees; what advice
entrusted by the public with the administration
they took is not very clear; they probably took
of science and art? Probably the latter would
the advice of people out of doors more or less,
have more influence.
because I do not suppose they acted on their own
judgment in any single case; or they took the
Mr, Herbert.
advice of the Keeper of the Gallery, a person
who was merely a subordinate of the Trustees,
1828. Do you think that really it would de-
and took care of the pictures. That system was
pend upon who the individual was who filled
found to be extremely unsatisfactory, since no
either the position of Minister of Education as
one could be called to account for any mistake
Vice President of the Council, or the position of
that occurred, and no one was really responsible.
Secretary of the Treasury, that it would depend
I should state, too, that Sir Charles Eastlake
upon who they happened to be at the time, acted for a time in the office of keeper ; but he
whether the one had a greater knowledge of
found it impossible to keep it; he had vo real
science and art than the other ?-It would always,
authority; he had very strong opinions; he knew
in every case, depend upon the man who filled
what ought to be done, and he felt very strongly
the office.
about it; he could not keep it at all, because he
1829. It would not necessarily follow that be- had no real authority and power. Then the re-
cause a man was the Minister of Education he constitution of the Gallery by the Treasury took
had any knowledge on the subject of art ?-_I place; the Trustees were limited to six without
should say not at all necessarily; for the fact is any ex officio member, and a Director was ap-
0.51.
pointed,
Within my That sy had an
P 2
116
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
. 13 May 1884.]
Mr. BURTON, F.S.A.
[Continued.
thehough, as I stare, he has the no combined, mion
Mr. Herbert-continued.
Mr. Herbert-continued.
pointed, who sat on the Board with the Trustees, any interference on the part of a Minister if
and voted equally with them. He then becaine Education with the affairs of the National Gal-
the Director, the responsible officer ; and lery ?-Certainly, with very much.
although, as I stated, according to the constitu-
tion of the Gallery, he has the power of vetoing
Sir Lyon Playfair.
anything that the Trustees, even combined, may 1834. Has not the history which you have
impose, or of carrying through any proposition given of the changes found necessary in 1855
of his own, yet there is the guarantee that the shown the necessity for more sharp Ministerial
Trustees may insert their objection on the responsibility, whether that is through a Minister
Minutes, and the whole thing may come before of Education or any other means. You stated .
Parliament. Although I say he has that power, that there had been a loose system before, and
still he has never, so far as I know, found it at that the Director became responsible ; that he
all necessary, or found any temptation, to exercise became more sharply responsible to a Minister;
it; and he, nevertheless, is under a very strong that was, as at present, the Secretary of the
moral control from the Trustees.
Treasury, and you said that that had been found
1833. Should you look with apprehension at very beneficial ?-Yes.
given the necessity her that is through you stated
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
117
Tuesday, 20th May 1884.
MEMBERS PRESENT :
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
Mr. Herbert.
Viscount Lymington.
Mr. Samuel Morley.
Mr. Pell.
Lord Algernon Percy.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
MR. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, IN THE CHAIR.
The Rev. W. E. SMITH, B.A., called in; and Examined.
Chairman.
Chairman-continued.
1835. WHAT office do you hold at the Ad- cating the Marines, to qualify them for holding a
miralty ?-Inspector of Naval Schools.
certificate of education. A certificate of education
1836. All the naval schools come under your
is necessary so that they may be entitled to a
view ?-Yes.
rating as sergeant or corporal or bombardier; a
1837. Does Greenwich School also ?-Yes.
first or second-class certificate entitles a man to
a sergeant's rank; a third-class to a corporal or
1838. The question referred to this Com-
bombardier's; and a fourth, under certain cir-
mittee is, as to the responsibility for the several
cumstances, excuses him from school,
Votes for Education, in what Minister or Minis-
1849. Is the attendance at those schools com-
ters that responsibility should be placed. Are
pulsory ?-It is compulsory at the depôt at Wal-
the naval schools entirely under the responsibility
mer, where the Marines are under training for the
of the Admiralty ?-I believe entirely. There
service.
are various kinds of naval schools.
1850. But not at the divisions ?-At the divi-
1839. Perhaps you would be good enough sions the attendance of certain men is compulsory
first to tell us what the naval schools are ? - The unless they are old soldiers ; old soldiers do not
Adult Marines, Children of Marines, Training attend school except voluntarily. In the Marine
Ships, and Greenwich Hospital; there are these Artillery the plan is different; they are com-
four kindls.
pelled to attend there until they get a fourth-class
1840. The Votes for the support of those certificate.
schools are all in the Naval Estimates ?-Yes. 1851. That is at Eastney ? —Yes.
1841. And they are moved by the First Lord
1852. With respect to children, are the
or by the Secretary of the Admiralty, as the case children's schools similar to the primary schools
may be ?—That is so.
generally in the country ? -- Exactly similar;
1842. Does the Education Department, that is and we govern them by the new Code as nearly
to say, the Committee of the Privy Council on as possible.
Education, take any part whatever in the inspec- 1853. The only difference being that you regu-
tion of those schools ? -None whatever.
late the inspection, and not the Education De-
1843. The Admiralty is solely responsible for partment? --Yes, and I think one reason for
them, and the inspection is under Admiralty having those schools was to utilise the staff of
jurisdiction ?-Yes.
teachers. The Admiralty are obliged to have a
1844. Have you the management of every staff of teachers for the adults ; the school time
thing that has to do with those schools ?-I re given to the adults would only occupy a portion of
present to their Lordships the condition and re- the teachers' time; the rest of their time is occu
quirements of the schools.
pied in teaching the children. So that it is a
1845. In dealing with those schools you re- matter of economy.
present to their Lordships ?—Yes.
1854. Is it your opinion that the adult marine
1846. The Greenwich Hospital School, I pre-
schools and the boys and girls' marine schools are
sume, is only inspected by you; you have nothing
better inspected under the directions of the Ad-
to do with its management ?-İ ain on the com- miralty than they would be if they were inspected
mittee as well.
by the Education Department?- Not more effi-
1847. But the superintendent manages the ciently .
school ?-Yes.
1855. But in other respects, do you see any
1848. Going first to the marine schools ; you
advantage in retaining the present system ?---
said that there were marine schools for adults
None. The only advantage I can see in putting
and marine schools for children; are those all pri-
them under the Education Department would be
mary schools ?- No; the schools for adults in the
that they would be entitled to a grant.
Marines were established for the purpose of edu- 1856. That, of course, is a question of financo
0.51.
P 3
which
118
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
20 May 1884.]
Rev. W. E. SMITH, B.A.
[Continued.
comean, proriemployment school th
Chairman--continued.
Chairman-continued.
which hardly arises when you are dealing with but this school is of a mixed character; some
people in the public service ?-Yes. That ad- of the boys attend full time, some half, and some
vantage, however, would be derived by the quarter time.
Admiralty were these schools placed under the 1873. In the factory schools it is only full
Education Department.
time and half time ? - Yes.
1857. But, so far as the inspection of the 1874. Then the sum of your evidence is, that
children is concerned, and the consequent effi- you do not think anything would be gained by
ciency of the school, you see no advantage in the bringing the inspection of the naval schools
transfer ? -No; I might mention that one ad- under the Education Department, except a little
vantage would be that the pupil teachers would money and the privilege to the female pupil
be recognised by the Department, and at present teachers of becoming employable elsewhere ? -
they are not. We have a certain number of Quite so. Pupil teachers in the Marine Schools
pupil teachers.
could then more easily obtain employment else-
1858. Are they children of Marines ?-As a where.
rule they are.
1859. And you say that the advantage would
Sir Lyon Playfair.
be that they would be recognised by the Educa-
tion Department ?--Yes.
1875. I am not quite sure that I understand
1860. Wherein would be the advantage ? the children's schools for the Marines; are they
When they are leaving school they will more
always where the Marines are stationed ? -
easily obtain employment as assistant mistresses;
Yes.
I mean, provided they have not been trained in
1876. In what sort of towns? -The schools
are at Walmer, Eastney, Chatham, Portsmouth,
1861. You say " mistresses": are they all · and Plymouth.
girls ?- All girls; we have no boy pupil teachers.
1877. In all those there are regular schools
1862. Then, passing from them to the Green-
under the Education Department, are there not?
wich Hospital Schools, they can hardly be consi-
--Yes.
dered as being on the same footing as the pri-
1878. Is there any particular motive which
mary schools ?-The lower school (called the
would render it undesirable that the Education
nautical school) is nearly identical, as far as Department, which has a standard of examina-
education is concerned, with an ordinary
tion, should not extend it also to schools of a
primary school.
similar kind in the same towns ?—The style of
1863. In the lower division are the boys not
education is as nearly identical as circumstances
trained for any naval employment afterwards ?-
permit; but the “ attendances” do not in all
Yes; they are divided into full, half, and quarter-
cases correspond with those in other elementary
time divisions The full-time division have
schools.
school instruction only; the half-time division
1879. Do not you think it might be for the
have half their time at school and half at trades
public advantage that that should be ascertained
or seamanship; the quarter-time division have men who are accustomed to examine upon
one quarter of their time at school, and three-
different standards in the same town?-Yes,
quarters at trades or seamanship.
there might be advantages in that.
1864. The lower division is, then, not exactly
1880. I mean for those special children's
like an ordinary public school, because it is used schools ?-- Yes.
for the purpose of bringing lads into the naval 1881. Now with regard to the adult schools,
service ?-More nearly amounting to an indus- how high do you go in the education in the adult
trial school.
schools in these depôts ?-For the certificates,
1865. The upper division is called by what do you mean?
name ?—The upper nautical.
1882. Yes ?- The highest certificate, the first-
1866. That is strictly a professional school, is class certificate, is for reading, writing, according
it not ?-Not necessarily for the navy.
to the sixth standard, writing from notes, précis
1867. I said, “a professional school” ?-Yes, taking.
it is a professional school.
1883. According to the sixth education standard,
1868. Would you see any advantage in those do you mean?-Yes. I omitted to mention that
schools being inspected by officers of the Educa- the men are examined in writing “ Orders ;” also
tion Department?- No, I think there would be that they must take an “ Extra Subject,” such as
difficulties in the way.
Algebra, Trigonometry, French, &c.
1869. What difficulties ? — The difficulties 1884. Then the lower grades are still lower
arising from the fact of these schools being com- than that? — They take the ordinary standards.
posed of full, half, and quarter-time divisions. A third-class certificate corresponds to about
1870. These schools are special, and quite the third standard in the schools.
different in that respect from the common ele- 1885. The third standard of the Education
mentary schools that the Inspectors of the Code, do you mean ?-Yes.
Education Department examine ?-Yes.
1886. Then in none of these schools is there
1871. Are you aware that the Factory schools anything higher taught than is taught in the
are examined by the Education Department ?-
common elementary schools of the country ? -
Yes.
That is taking the lowest certificate.
1872. In the time of attendance there is no
1887. But I mean taking the highest; there is
great difference, is there, between the factory nothing, as you gave it, that is not included in a
schools and the lower division at Greenwich ?- first-class elementary school in the country ?-
No, not between them and the lower division; No.
1888. So
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
!19
20 May 1884.]
Rev. W. E. SMITH, B.A.
[Continued.
stchools of thaccustome, standard epartment nge of is
· Sir Lyon Playfair--continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
1888. So that, at all events, whether it would 1905. But the upper part of Greenwich School
be expedient or not, it is within the range of
is considerably more technical ?--Yes.
possibility that the Education Department might
1906. And, I suppose, all the children, even
examine in the same standards in these schools in the lower division, are encouraged to go
as they are accustomed to examine in the other through seamanlike exercises with the lads of the
schools of the district ? - We do not examine by
ship that you have at Greenwich ?-Yes.
standards. There are Army Regulations; these
1907. In order to give them an inducement to
prescribe the amount of education that is re-
enter the Navy? -Yes.
quired for the several certificates in the Marines.
1908, What would the term “ Admiralty
1889. But I understood you to say that for a
Schools” include ?—The term would include, I
first-class certificate, your standard of examina-
presume, all schools under Adiniralty govern-
tion was the sixth standard of the Education
ment; and those would be the Marines, the Train-
Code ? --Approximately.
ing Ships, and Greenwich.
1890. Plus a special subject ?—Yes.
1909. I say 56 Admiralty Schools,” because I
know there is one of that name at Plymouth?
1891. But you are aware that that is exactly
That is a Marine School ; “ Admiralty School"
what is done in public elementary schools of a
good kind. A special subject or two special
is over the door.
subjects may be taken, and the sixth standard
1910. You say that a certificate entitles to
may be examined in, too ?-Quite so; but in
promotion; do you mean that a man when he
our schools they have writing from orders as
has passed a certain standard immediately gets
well.
promoted, or only that it qualifies him ?-Cer-
1892. Are they specially naval orders ?-
tainly not. The holder of a certificate becomes
They are generally taken from the order-book.
thereby scholastically qualified for promotion.
1893. The Naval order-book ?-Marine.
1911. You say that the only two advantages
which you think these schools would derive in
1894. However, there is nothing technical in
coming under the Education Department would
either of those schools ?-No.
be that the pupil teachers would get recognised,
1895. I assume that you were appointed in-
and the schools would get a grant. Would it
spector because you had educational experience ?
not be the case that if the schools got a grant
-Yes.
from the Education Department they would get
1896. Are you a naval chaplain ?-Yes. less money from the Naval Vote; or do you
I was employed as an assistant examiner first consider that it would be in addition ?-No,
in 1872.
certainly there would, in that case, be less from
1897. In fact, you are of the same character the Naval Vote.
as the high-class inspectors that are appointed
1912. Therefore, it would not really affect the
in the Education Department ?-Yes.
school ?-It would not affect the school, but it
1898. In Greenwich, we understand there is a
would transfer a portion of the expense from one
lower and an upper school ; the lower, I think
Vote to another.
you have said, is an elementary school, with half-
timers and quarter-timers ?-Yes.
1913. Did I rightly gather from your answers
to the Chairman, that you thought that bringing
1899. But in no other respect different from
the schools under the Education Department
an elementary school?-Not as regards the
would not necessarily make them more efficient;
scholastic education.
or that you meant that the present system did not
1900. Was not Greenwich School once in-
guarantee their being more efficient than they
spected by one of Her Majesty's Inspectors ?-
would be if they were put under the Education
Mr. Sharpe went down there, I believe, at the
Department ?-I do not think scholastically it
request of the Admiralty.
would make any difference.
1901. But I mean before that time; was it
not wholly inspected by Canon Moseley ? -I am
Lord Algernon Percy.
not aware of it.
1902. Canon Moseley reorganised the school, 1914. At the present time both the adult marine
and continued its inspection for a good many schools, and the children's marine schools, and
years, I believe ?_But it has been altered very also the training ships, are entirely under the
materially lately; in fact, it has been altered officer commanding the depôt or the ship, as the
many times in the last few years.
case may be, are they not?—Yes.
1903. Whether formerly it was done by Canon
1915. And is he responsible for the efficient
Moseley acting as an inspector under the Admi-
conduct of those schools to the Admiralty ; and
ralty, I am not aware, but at the same time he for the conduct of the schoolmaster and the ma-
was one of Her Majesty's Inspectors ?-Dr. nagement generally? Yes.
Woolley was in the same position; he was also 1916. And you yourself, as an inspector, are
one of Her Majesty's Inspectors, and also in- responsible, are you not, to the Admiralty. If
spected that school,
there was any charge of misconduct against an
1904. And was he employed by the Admiralty ? inspector, or of neglect of duty on the part of an
-He was in the Education Department, and inspector, it would be the Admiralty who would
employed by the Admiralty. First of all, he inquire into the case ? -The Admiralty would
was transferred from the Admiralty to the Edu- inquire into it, certainly.
cation Department; and then afterwards from 1917. Therefore, the schools and the inspectors
the Education Department to the Admiralty. are all under one authority ?-Yes.
0.51.
P4
1918. Are
120
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
20 May 1884.]
Rev. W. E. SMITH, B.A.
[Continued.
Reading.
Writing.
Arithmetic.
Reading.
Writing.
Arithmetic.
4th
-
ő voor
2
Lord Algernon Percy --continued.
Mr. James Campbell-continued..
1918. Are you of opinion that if the inspectors favourably with the returns from the Education
were under the Education Department, and the Department; I compare the two in my reports.
management of the schools still remained under
the Admiralty, there might be an inconvenience [The Witness handed in the following Paper.]
found from the clashing of the two separate au-
thorities? I think very likely.
ROYAL MARINE DEPÔT, WALMER-
1919. The adult schools, both the training
Christmas, 1883.
ships and the marine schools, are purely a military
matter, are they not?-Yes.
PASSES obtained by CHILDREN in the several
1220. In fact, the adult marine schools in
STANDARDS
particular, are instituted simply for military pur-
poses ? -For educating the men for certificates.
BOYS.
GIRLS.
1921. And the men are compelled to attend
by Army Regulations ?-Yes.
1922. Do you think that there would be dis-
STANDARDS
satisfaction félt among the men of the Marines
and the Army generally, at being compelled to
attend schools that were inspected by inspectors
employed by another department instead of their
own department ?-I do not think it would be 7th . . .
acceptable.
Gth .
Mr. James Campbell.
5th - -
1923. Can you give us the statistics of these
schools, the attendance ?-Yes.
1924. You have given us the four classes of 3rd -
schools; can you give us the number of schools
2nd • .
under each class ?-I can tell you the number of
adults examined at Christmas last.
Ist -
1925. First of all, how many adult marine
schools have you ?- One at the depôt, one at
No child failed to pass in First Standard in any subject.
Eastney, one at Chatham, one at Plymouth, and
one at Portsmouth.
1933. And now with regard to the training
1926. What was the number examined at shin
ships; how many are there of these? ---Five.
Christmas last ?-One thousand seven hundred
and forty-nine adults.
1934. And what is the attendance?-Three
1927. And how many children's schools are
thousand one hundred and twenty-five in the
there?- The same number, boys and girls and
ships last Christmas; examined 2,489. And
infants. Of boys, 449; of girls, 451; and of
when I say in the ships, you must remem-
infants, 732 were examined at Christmas.
ber that there are brigs attached to these ships,
1928. How many teachers are there? _Third so that some of the boys are away from school.
teen trained masters; 34 what are called soldier
and hence the disparity between thc 3,125 and
the 2,489. .
assistants.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
1935. Have you mentioned where the ships
are ?- At Portsmouth one, Portland one, Ply-
1929. Those are for the adults, I suppose ?- mouth two, and Falmouth one. They are not
Some of them also attend at the boys schools children, I should observe; they are seamen.
when not einployed with the adults. Ten trained
mistresses ; four untrained mistresses (they are
Chairman.
supposed to be soldiers' wives) in charge of the
1936. Lads ?-Yes, lacis; they are being edu-
infants, as assistant mistresses, and 17 pupil
. cated for seamen.
teachers. There are vacancies at present among
the pupil teachers.
Mr. James Campbell.
Mr. James Campbell.
1937. What is the staff of teachers ?-We em-
1930. The masters, I understood you to say, ploy schoolmasters that are not actually em-
teach both the adults and the children?-Yes. ployed for sea purposes. The staff of school-
1931. Can you give us any statistics as to the masters at present altogether amounts to 110. A
classes of the children's schools; the proportion portion of these 110 masters are employed in sea-
in the different classes or standards ?-I compare going ships; the remaining portion in harbour
them in my reports with the general state of ships and training ships.
education, and they compare very favourably 1938. Can you give us the statistics of the
with most scliools. The depôts, especially, are Greenwich Hospital School ?-Yes; the full time
above the average. One of the girls' schools division at Greenwich, 398; half time, 370;
has been a little below the average, but has very quarter time division, 169. In the upper
much improved under a new mistress. Do you nautical school there are 50 boys; that number
wish for the per-centages in the various stan- probably will be increased.
dards ?
1939. What is the staff of teachers for that?--
1932. Yes, or the proportion of children in the The staff of teachers is 17 assistant masters, and
various standards ? -The schools compare very four masters.
1040. Have

so that sother and brings attachment must rememd
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
121
20 May 1884.]
Rev. W. E. SMITH, B.A.
[Continued.
Tho pelled seamen a you is that upers a papersLo
Mr. James Campbell-continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
1940. Have you the charge of the inspection of which is the legal age for employment, could
all these schools ?-Yes.
possibly forget his reading, writing, and arithmetic
1941. Have you a sub-inspector ? -Yes, one. in three years ? --They do not all pass the fourth
1942. The staff is one inspector, and one sub- standard ; for instance, at Plymouth they do not
inspector ?-Yes.
require that standard.
1953. But is it not the case that the fourth
Sir Lyon Playfair.
standard for full employment is now the mini-
1943. I am not sure that I understand what mum legal requirement by the Education and
you say as to the training ships. In the training Factory Acts?- At Plymouth, is that so, may I
ships there are lads of 16 and upwards, are they ask?
not?-Quite so.
1954. In England generally ?--I was not
1944. Sixteen to what ?-A little over 17; aware of that.
they may be over, but as a rule they leave
Lord Algernon Percy.
shortly after 17.
1945. How long do they generally remain in 1955. Are there any naval schools at foreign
the training ship ? - A little over a year.
stations ?— Yes, Malta and the Bermudas.
1946. Do they find their education at all back 1956. Are they conducted in the same manner
ward when they get in ?- Very often they have as the naval schools in England ?-They are
forgotten what they have learnt at school, but under my inspection.
they quickly pick it up again on board.
1957. How are the schoolmasters employed on
1947. What I want to ascertain is, are you board seagoing ships ?.-In educating the men
able in those training ships to carry the education who voluntarily come, and the boys who are
considerably higher than in an elementary school? compelled to attend, and in duties connected
-No, except in the advanced class, where we with the seamen's library.
have a little technical instruction, such as will 1958. You said you inspected the Malta and
qualify them for their position as leading torpedo Bermuda schools, how is tîat done ?—The chil-
men or gunnery instructors.
dren are examined, and the papers are sent home
1948. Do not you think, with the progress of to me, the questions and the worked papers, and I
education under the compulsory system, you will have to report upon these schools to their Lord-
be getting boys with a more advanced education ships.
than formerly ?-Yes.
Mr. Herbert.
1949. And that you may be able to produce a
higher technical instruction than you do now in
1959. When you say that these boys that
those schools ?- I doubt it.
come to the training ships, seem to have for-
gotten everything, you would not put it quite so
Chairman.
far as to say that they have forgotten to read
1950. What is generally the lapse of time be- and write, would you?-If I said “everything"
tween a boy's leaving school and his coming as a I was using too strong a term.
lad to the training ship?–I dare say three or
four years; three years I may say.
Chairman.
1951. During which time he has been at the 1960. The qualification of being able to read
plough generally or that sort of employment ? and write is considered necessary, is it not, before
they can come into the ship ?-Yes, but it is
Sir Lyon Playfair.
relaxed.
1961. But in form it is necessary ?-Yes;
1952. Do you think that a young man that had sometimes they are obliged to admit boys who
passed the fourth standard at 13 years of age, are not up to the educational standard.
Yes.
Lieutenant General Sir BEAUCHAMP VALKER, K.C.B., called in ; and Examined.
in the
schools; amarter schools Schools
S
Chairman.
Chairman-continued.
1962. You are the Director General of Edu- master. Il Ireland there are 41 headquarter
cation in the War Department, I believe? -- schools and 21 detachment schools; in the
Yes.
Colonies 36 headquarter schools and 49 detach-
1963. And as such you have knowledge and ment schools; and in India 76 headquarter
control over all the Educational Department of schools, but how many detachment schools I do
the Army ?--Every part of it.
not know, the education being mainly under the
1964. Including the regimental schools ?-In- control of the Commander in Chief in India. I
cluding the regimental schools.
should say that a headquarter school implies a
1965. Would you give us a general idea of battalion, a regiment of cavalry, or two batteries
the number of the schools under your control, of artillery, a division of artillery. The smaller
and the character of your inspection ?--There bodies would have a detachment school.
are in England and Scotland 99 headquarter and 1966. Then, are there any other educational
67 detachment schools. These detachment establishments ?- The Royal Military Asylum,
schools are small bodies of troops detached from and the Royal Hibernian Military School are
headquarters of their regiments large enough only partially under my control. There has been
to justify the employment of a soldier as school- a committee on their organisation within the
0.51.
last
122
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
20 May 1884.]
Lieut. General Sir B. WALKER, K.C.B.
[Continued.
not.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
last 18 months, and the matter remains some- 1978. And you yourself, and your inspectors,
what doubtful as to who is the person responsible I suppose, compare notes with the results, as
for the control; whether I am, or whether the printed, of the Education Department ?- Most
Military Asylum is under my control, because carefully.
everything connected with it is referred to my
1979. And you know all their rules and watch
office. The Dublin school is not under my the alterations of the Code as they take place ?-
control; that is under the control of a Board We have the same standards, I believe I may
composed of the Lord Lieutenant, the Com- say exactly the same standards, in all the
mander in Chief in Ireland, and various military children's schools, as were laid down by the
officials ex officio, and of certain other civilians; Education Department.
and the whole control and management of the 1980. You have heard, perhaps, what Mr. Smith
school (although every paper connected with it stated about the Marine schools ?---I only par-
passes through my hands before it goes to the tially heard what he said.
War Office) is entirely in their hands, I may
1981. Do you agree with Mr. Smith in
say.
thinking that no practical advantage would be
1967. Then omitting for the moment the gained by transferring the inspection of the
Royal Hibernian School, are all the schools different schools in the army from the War
which you have described to us inspected by you, Department to the Education Department,
or by persons under you?- The first assistant except possibly some transfer of charge and some
director in my office has charge of the education advantage to pupil teachers ?-I can see no
of the officers and colleges; the second assistant advantage in it whatever. I think it would
has charge of the education of the soldiers and cause the most painful friction.
the children. Under him there are in England 1982. Mr. Smith said that with regard to the
and Scotland 11 sub-inspectors and inspectors, Naval schools he saw no advantage, possibly dis-
the inspectors being sub-inspectors who have advantage, excepting in that one respect, that the
served 10 years as such, and receive the higher pupil teachers would be better qualified for
designation. In Ireland there are three. There employment elsewhere ?--My pupil teachers all
are tivo officers in Malta and Gibraltar respec- find employment, or nearly all, by becoming
tively, who act as local inspectors. There are army schoolmistresses.
seven inspectors or sub-inspectors of army
1983. But their certificate does not qualify
schools in India, and three local superintendents, them for becoming mistresses in ordinary
one in each Presidency.
elementary schools, I suppose ?-No, I presume
1968. Now, will you give us the figures from
another point of view. The whole of boys and 1984. Is there any disadvantage in that?-
girls is, what ?-Boys 3,306; elder girls, 2,926; They really become absorbed into the army. A
infants, 7,306.
good many of them marry into the army and
1969. The whole number of adult soldiers is, become acting or assistant school-mistresses as
what? — Thirty-seven thousand four hundred soldiers' wives afterwards ; but the bulk of them
and forty-four.
become army schoolmistresses.
1970. The total number in the non-regimental 1985. Is there any special army technical
schools, the larger schools, is what?-Four hun- instruction in army schools ?--Not in army
dred and eighty in Chelsea, and 410 in Dublin.
schools.
1971. The number of schoolmasters is, what?
1986. Is it the case that the boys are in no
- The number of trained masters is 264, of whom
way trained with a view to service afterwards ?
- To a certain extent they are; because if they
106 are warrant officers, and 158 are non-commis-
sioned officers. The number of trained school-
go up for the higher classes they have to learn
mistresses is 253, of whom 25 are first-class, 75
the mode of keeping soldiers' accounts. Those
are second-class, and 153 are third-class.
who go up for a first-class certificate of educa-
tion have to take up official letter and précis
1972. What is the number of pupil teachers ?
-Sixty-five.
writing. Therefore to a certain extent there are
1973. You have now described the whole of
technicalities in the teaching of adults in the
the school establishments under your inspection.
army beyond the subjects which are taught in
Will you tell the Committee wliether at any
the civil schools, and on standards which we have
now adopted.
time any part of these establishments were
1987. Is there any musical teaching at the
inspected by the Education Department ?-I am
not aware that they were.
regimental schools ?—The children are taught
singing; and both at the boys' school at Chelsea
1974. Within your recollection they have
always been inspected by a Department of the
and in Dublin, they are taught singing and
War Office ?-By a Department of the War
taught music.
1988. Are they taught music with a view to
Office.
1975. So far as you know, do you consider
their becoming buglers or getting into the band?
- That is only while in the band.
the inspection satisfactory ?-Most satisfactory.
There is a
1976. The War Office give you all you want,
large corps of band and drum at both institu-
as far as numbers and machinery go?--Every- 1989. I ask more as to the regimental schools ?
thing. I think the inspectors are very hardly -No, there is no teaching of music in the regi-
worked. Their work is harder perhaps than that mental schools.
of any officials I know.
1990. So that in that sense there is no link
1977. Still, the department is in an efficient between the school and any possible employment
state ?-The department is in an efficient state. afterwards ?--No.
1991. Then
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
123
20 May 1884.]
Lieut. General Sir B. WALKER, K.C.B.
[Continued.
ca,
Chairman—continued.
1991. Then the schools are really elementary
schools, governed by precisely the same rules as
the ordinary elementary schools ?- They are
really elementary schools governed by precisely
the same rules as the elementary schools
throughout the country. I think perhaps, as
regards corporal punishment, we are more ad-
vanced than many of the schools of the country.
1992. Do you mean in having less of it ?-In
having less of it, and in having it very strictly
under control.
Sir Lyon Playfair.
1993. How are your teachers certificated ?-
The masters undergo training at the normal
school at Chelsea.
1994. The normal military school at Chelsea ?
-Yes, which is in the same grounds as the Duke
of York's School.
1995. They are trained exactly as teachers of
the elementary schools are trained, I suppose ?-
They are certainly trained much higher. The
entry to the normal school is open to the pupil
teachers at Chelsea and at Dublin, to soldiers of
the Army, and to certificated schoolmasters or
certificated pupil teachers froin civil life; and I
find that the pupil teachers at Chelsea and in
Dublin, I may say, invariably beat, in the com-
petition, those who come to us from the civil
schools. I fancy that we get only those as can-
didates who cannot find employment in the civil
schools.
1996. And have you several grades of cer-
tificates ?-Of schoolmaster's we have only two ;
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
one special, and the ordinary certificate of being
competent to perform the duty of a school-
master.
1997. Are those headquarter schools and
detachment schools both for adults and for chil-
dren? - Both for adults and for children: the
masters' schools for the elder children and adults ;
the mistresses' schools for infants only.
1998. What do you call infants ?---Those girls
who are not able to pass up in the first standard
are infants; but all boys are removed from
the mistress' school at eight years of age.
1999. And you have a regular elementary
school for them ?-Yes.
2000. I suppose it is chiefly in the question of
discipline that your school differs from common
elementary schools, that your discipline is more
severe ?--No, I think our discipline is not more
severe; but the whole thing is so entirely in my
hands, I am so absolute; that is to say, always
under the Commander in Chief and the Secre-
tary of State of War, that we have no difficulty
whatever about discipline; I have little difficulty
about non-attendance, for instance, because we
can punish the parents; if they do not send
their children to school, they forfeit the advan-
tages which married soldiers otherwise enjov.
2001. So that you have very little absenteeism
in your schools?— Very little.
2002. Could you give us the number of chil-
dren who pass in the several standards ? -
The following Paper was handed in.)
RETURN of CHILDREN attending ARMY SCHOOLS corresponding to that on page 15 of Reports
on Civil Schools, 1882-83.

The Number
of
Scholars of that
Age ou
the Registers
The Age at which
the
Standard ought
to be
Passed.
STANDARD
The Number
of
Scholars
Examined in
that
Standard.
The Number
above
| 10 Years of Age,
Examined.
REMARKS.
of
Ariny Schools.
514
632
-
-
.
680
756
140
298
673
696
1. .
II. .
III. -
IV. -
V. -
VI. •
565
427
These figures do not include chil.
dren in Army schools in the
Colonies and in India.
533
497
363
-
.
308
319
148
146
3,260
3,116
1,345
COMPARISON of RESULT.

In Civil Schools. In Army Schools.
REMARKS,
Per-centage of children on books presented for Examina-
tion - -
Per-centage over 10 years of age, examined in standards
below that required for their years - - - -
Per-centage over 10 years of age presented in, or above the
standard of their years
- -
0.51.
Q2
124
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
20 May 1884.]
Lieut. General Sir B. WALKER, K.C.B.
(Continued.
English standaose of that continue,
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
Chairman-continued.
2003. In regard to the detachment schools, are VII. to the close of that of James II. For the
they very small ? - Somne of them are very small. seventh standard a still higher knowledge of the
Sometimes two or three companies are detached, English language is required; a general geo-
sometimes only one company ; but wherever a graphical knowledge of Europe, Asia, Africa, and
company or troup or single battery is detached, South America (the United States of America
on the application of the commanding officer, if come into the sixth-class standard), and the his-
a competent non-commissioned officer who has tory of our country from the time of William III.
taken a second-class certificate of education in to the close of the reign of George IV. Of
the army schools can be found, I never hesitate course, all those which have been learnt before
to open a school. We give cvery possible must be kept up ; these are the additions. But
encouragement to the men's attendance at there is no attempt at teaching science of any
school.
kind.
2004. Do you encourage in any of your schools
Sir Lyon Playfuir.
a knowledge of science ? —No, I do not think we 2010. Was there at any time in the army an
would like to see the standards. I have brought by Her Maiestri's ins
by Her Majesty's inspectors ?-I have no trace
the Army School Regulations with me which I of this ever having been the case. I can go back
shall be very happy to leave for the use of the to a time long before I ever thought of coming
Committee.
to the department in which I am now. I go
2005. Have you special subjects at all?_We
back to my earliest days on the staff, when we
have special subjects (page 18, Army School had exactly the same system of inspection, only
Regulations), for those soldiers who wish to not so carefully elaborated
take a first-class certificate of education, which is sub-inspectors were then called superintendino
not very frequently gone up for. No non-com- schoolmasters ; they were a higher class of
missioned officer can be promoted to the rank of schoolmaster.
officer unless he has a first-class certificate of 2011. Have you sub-inspectors selected from
education, or unless he has passed some examina- schoolmasters Exclusively. They must be
tion, which I am authorised to accept as equiva- under 45 years of age; and they are promoted
lent to it; such, for instance, as having qualified on their merits and length of service.
for entry to the Royal Military College, qualified
for entry to the Royal Military Academy, quali-
Lord Algernon Percy.
compete as a militia officer for a line commission, the present moment are under you, the officer
or having any certificate from a university, commanding the regiment or detachment is
which is equivalent to a first-class certificate. responsible for the school, I presume ?-Yes.
2006. Have you no special subjects in the entirely.
elementary schools themselves ?-No, none, 2013. Do you not think that with regard to
beyond the standard which has been adopted from the adult schools, it is absolutely necessary he
the Education Code.
should have that control of them ?-Most cer-
2007. But you are aware that in the Educa- tainly he should have absolute control of everything
tion Code they have special subjects ?--Yes, of connected with them, and should be responsible
course. What you would call the special subjects to the Department to which I belong for his
would be what we call class subjects.
action.
2008. For instance, a knowledge of chemistry 2014. And with regard to the question of
or elementary natural history ? -That we have inspectors, supposing there was any case of com-
not attempted.
plaint, it would be made to you again by the
Chairman.
commanding officer?_Certainly.
2015. Supposing the inspection of these schools
2009. Would you read one or two of those was placed in the hands of the Education Depart-
which are called special subjects ?- The class ment, do vou think a difficulty would arise in
subjects of the fourth class are, “ Accidence of
consequence of the constant movements of troops
noun, article, adjective, and pronoun; defini-
which may have caused great irregularity in the
tions and general knowledge of the most impor- schools ?Very great indeed.
tant physical features of the world : reigning 2016. Is it your opinion then that the manage-
houses, with kings and queens in order of succes ment of the schools in the army is better left as
sion, from the Norman Conquest to the present it is at present than placed in any other hands?
time; and general knowledge of the history of the -I certainly think so. The system works very
last 50 ycars." That is for the fourth class. For smoothly, and I have a constant eye upon all that
the fifth class there would be the first subject goes on. The schools are inspected twice a year
the same as before, with the addition of the by the inspector who has further to make two
preposition and the conjunction; “knowledge of examinations of adults for certificates of educa-
the geography of Great Britain and Ireland : 'tion, besides those already mentioned, and
remarkable events of each reign, from the Norman all schools within his reach at the place
Conquest to the close of the reign of Richard III., where he is stationed may be visited by him
and their influence upon the history of the whenever he pleases, provided that he notia
country.” In the sixth class there would be a fies to the officer commanding the corps to
higher analytical knowledge of the English which the school belongs that he has done so.
language; the history of British India and the The inspectors are all stationed at large garri-
Colonies, and the United States of America ; and sons; and they walk in at irregular times and
the history of England, from the reign of Henry light on irregularities which otherwise might
never
it is at printy think so. constant eye upone a yea
moothly, and think so. Thin any other left as
go the inspector ndults for det mentioned, place
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
125
20 May 1884.]
Lieut. General Sir B. WALKER, K.C.B.
[Continued.
Lord Algernon Percy—continued.
Chairman--continued.
never come to my knowledge; schoolmasters employed in the German Army, and those of
and mistresses coming late, schoolmasters and non-coinmissioned officers, allowed to marry ?-
mistresses not marking up their registers at the Very few indeed,
proper time, and so on; 1 find that a very useful 2025. Where are they taught?- They go to
system, and I think it would be a very great the civil elementary schools of their country,
misfortune to the army if these inspectors were which exist everywhere.
done away with.
2026. So that in connection with the army the
Mr. James Campbell.
German Government only teach officers ? -They
only teach officers; the officers commanding
2017. Are the inspectors and sub-inspectors
inspectors companies and troops are supposed to teach in
civilians?— They have been army schoolmasters the evening those of their own men who are un-
who have had, in all probability, 20 or 25 years'
educated.
previous service and experience as army school-
2027. Do they have any assistance from a
masters. The schoolmasters are not necessarily
civilians; there are a great many among them
a schoolmaster? -None whatever; there are no
a
who have also been soldiers before they entered
army schoolmasters in Germany.
the normal school at Chelsea ; and a very con-
siderable proportion are those who have been
Sir Lyon Playfair.
brought up at the Duke of York's School at
at 2028. I suppose this system grew up, did it
Chelsea, or the Royal Hibernian School at
not, when there was no efficient elementary
Dublin as monitors or pupil teachers, and have
education all through the country ?-Yes.
school. I should mention that the entrance to
2029. Do you think that it will be needful
the normal school is by strict competition ; that
to keep up the children's schools in the army
they all compete together, and that those who pass
when schools become universal through all parts
the best examinations come in.
of the kingdom ?-I think we may look forward
to a day when it will be not so necessary as it is
Sir Lyon Playfair.
at present. My schools have diminished very
greatly in numbers since the introduction of
2018. Is that competition open to the Civil
short service. There are much fewer children
Service too ?-Yes ; perhaps I should recapitu-
late those who are admissible to the normal
in the army than there were during the time of
school; pupil teachers from the Royal Hibernian
long service; and a very large number of chil-
dren of the army now go to civil schools, as well
School, Dublin, or the Royal Military Asylum,
i as those that are taught in the army schools.
Chelsea ; soldiers of the army; certificated
For instance, excepting at peculiarly situated
schoolmasters or certificated pupil teachers from
territorial head-quarters there are no infant
civil life. They compete against each other for
schools ; no schools, in fact. The only cases in
entrance, and those who pass the best examina-
which schools are opened at the territorial head-
tion are entered. We generally have three
quarters are when both battalions of a regiment
times as many competing as we require.
happen to be abroal, or where from some
abnormal circamstance a very large number of
Mr. James Campbell.
recruits have accumulated and reniained over the
2019. Will you inform us whether the inspec- time during which they are not obliged to attend
tion is upon the same principle and of the same school. In those cases I have been obliged in
nature as the inspection by the officers of the some instances to open schools at the territorial
Education Department ?--I should say exactly head-quarters.
the same.
2030. But where you can get the civil schools
2020. Your inspectors found their work upon to do your work efficiently, you are satisfied that
the same rules ?--Entirely.
they should do it? The children from those
commands are sent to the civil schools. Some of
Chairman.
the depôt head-quarters are situated also at so
2021. You were for many years, I think, our great a distance from the civil schools that the
military representative at Berlin ?~I was, for children cannot possibly attend them. Some of
12 years.
the depôt head-quarters are more than two miles
2022. You had a considerable opportunity from any civil school; and in that case I am
then of seeing the military educational system in obliged to find education for the children in the
Germany ? –Of the officers.
barracks; but as far as possible they go to the
2023. Had you of the men also ?-Of the men civil schools of the country. I will ascertain the
very little indeed.
number that attend the civil schools. It is about
2024. There are very few children of soldiers 2,000.
0.51.
Q3
126
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
'
20 May 1884.
Mr. HUGH OWEN, called in; and Examined.
mont Board pare. Secretary to the
was made of the
you be
Chairman.
Chairman- continued.
2031. You are Secretary to the Lcoal Govern- tioned; that an efficient teacher had no more
ment Board ?-Yes.
than an inefficient teacher ; that it depended
2032. You were assistant secretary, and have upon the sum which the guardians awarded to
become secretary within the last year or two?- the officer as salary, what payment should be
Yes.
made out of the grant; and then an arrangment
2033. The Committee wanted some inforina- was made with the Education Department that
tion about workhouse schools; would you be the inspection of these schools should be en-
good enough, first of all, to give us roughly the trusted to their inspectors, and certain classes of
statistics, stating how many such schools there certificates were determined upon, and a teacher
are, and how many children?—The average daily obtained a certificate according to his qualifica-
attendance of children is 35,000.
tions, and the grant was dependent upon the cer-
2034. In how many schools?—There are about tificate which the teacher had obtained.
640 unions. In a certain number of cases, those 2045. The grant being taken in the Education
unions are included in district schools, separate Vote, do you mean?-No, it was always taken
schools altogether; and in a certain number the in our Vote, but the certificates were regulated,
children are sent out to schools in the neigh- and grants were issued by the Education Depart.
bouring town. National Schools or Board ment on the reports of their inspectors.
Schools; probably there are about 200 cases of 2046. Had, practically, the Education De-
that kind.
partment any control over the appointment or
2035. The number of children is about 35,000, dismissal of the teacher ? None whatever ; that
you say?-That would be the average number was a matter which always rested with the Local
in actual attendance.
Government Board; that arrangement continued
2036. What about their age; are they about for a number of years until 1862. There was
of the same age as the children in the primary some modification, I may say, as to the adminis-
schools ?—They would usually go to school at tration of the grant in the meantime, but the
about three years of age, the ordinary age for arrangement as to inspection by the Education
infant schools, in the case of public elementary Department continued to that date; but it had
schools.
not worked at all satisfactorily; there was friction
2037. And stay till when ? — That would between the inspector of the Education Depart-
depend very much upon the age at which they ment and the general inspectors of the Board,
could be got out of the workhouse ; 13 probably and there were difficulties arising from entries
would be the age at which they usually leave. made in the visitors' book by the school in-
2038. The expense of these schools is kept spector; at times he would make some sugges.
altogether separate, is it not, from that of the tion that was opposed to the view of the general
schools under the Education Department? : inspector; and in consequence of the unsatisfac-
Entirely.
tory working of the arrangement, Mr. Villiers,
2039. Part is provided, and only part is pro- who was then the President of the Board,
vided, from under the Poor Law Vote ?-Yes. attended a meeting of the Committee of Council,
2040. And the inspection of these schools is and it was then determined that the inspectors,
also, is it not, entirely under the Local Govern- who, up to that time, had been acting as officers
ment Board ?-Yes. There are four inspectors of the Education Department, should be trans-
appointed by the Board.
ferred to the Local Government Board, and
2041. And how many sub-inspectors ? — No should in future conduct the inspections of the
sub-inspectors.
schools, making their reports to the Board as
2042. Do you mean that four inspectors are officers of the Board. Ever since 1862 that
sufficient to inspect the whole of the 35,000 arrangement has continued, and has worked very
children ?-Yes.
satisfactorily ; at any rate, the friction which
2043. Was this, which you have described, sometimes occurred previously has not arisen
always the case, or were the workhouse schools since the officers conducting the inspections have
at one time inspected by the Education Depart been officers of the Department.
ment?- They were at one time inspected by the 2047. Do you follow strictly the system of the
Education Department. I may say, perhaps, Education Department in the organisation of
that the Vote in respect of workhouse schools the school and in the inspection ?-Referring
was first made in 1846, and a grant was made first to the teachers, there are several grades of
with a view of improving the education of the certificates; there is one of permission, then
children in the workhouse schools. At that time probation, competency, and efficiency; and these
there was a great deal of difficulty in inducing grades are divided, in some cases, into three
boards of guardians to appoint suitable persons divisions. The inspector examines the teacher,
as teachers. Very often they had recourse to and forming his judgment from the examination
pauper inmates, or persons very little above that of the teacher, and also of the school, he deter-
class.
mines as to the certificate to which the teacher
2044. The responsibility was entirely in the is entitled. Then as regards the salary of the
Boards of Guardians ?-In the Boards of Guar- teacher, the amount is fixed by the guardians ;
dians. Then until 1848 an arrangement was made if the certificate awarded to the teacher only
under which the salaries of the teachers were entitles the guardians to a grant less than the
repaid from the Parliamentary grant. It was salary, the guardians take that amount as in part
then felt that the grant was not fairly appor recouping the sum that they pay ; but assuming
that
in the centirely in the mines as the the and also of the the examinati
dians. These wordings
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
127
20 May 1884.7
Mr. Hugh OWEN.
[ Continued.
Chairman-continued.
Chairman-continued.
that the amount which the guardians are entitled would not exceed 20 or 30, but there is always a
to receive in respect of the grant is in excess of difficulty.
the fixed salary awarded by the guardians, the 2053. You have given 35,000 as the total
sum in excess of the salary is paid to the teacher number of children, and something over 600 as
as a bonus; and in that way there is a very the total number of schools. That would be an
direct encouragement to the teacher to make average of 50 or 60 each ?-You cannot take an
every possible effort to keep up the position of average really. Take, for instance, a school
the school, and also to attain a higher grade of belonging to one of the metropolitan parishes,
certificate; I should say that under the Educa- and then a small rural union. The great draw-
tion Act of 1876, a workhouse school is included back at the present time in connection with
under the definition of a certified efficient school, workhouse education is the fact that the schools
provided that the school is certified as efficient are so small; the guardians are, to a very large
by the Local Government Board. Consequently, extent, having recourse to sending the children
attendances in a workhouse school count as out of the workhouse to public elementary
attendances for certificate of due attendance at schools; and that is an arrangement that we
school, which may be accepted as exempting encourage.
from attending school under the Education Act 2054. To what extent is that usual?- I should
Then, in addition to that, there are the certifi- think out of the 640 unions there are probably
cates of proficiency, and our school inspectors nearly 200 unions where the children are sent
adopt the same rules, as far as practicable, in the out.
examination of the children, as are adopted in 2055. Where the whole of the children are
the public elementary schools. They take the sent out, do you mean?- Where the whole are
several standards, the first to the sixth, and give sent out.
certificates according to the proficiency of the 2056. Are there not unions where some are
children; and those certificates, by the operation sent out, and others are kept in the workhouse?
of the Education Acts, and regulations issued by - There are very few cases of that kind; but I
the Education Department, have precisely the should say that although the children may be
same effect as the certificates given in the case sent out of the workhouse to school, it does not
of children passing similar standards in public follow that they do not obtain a grant, because
elementary schools.
in a large number of the work houses there are
2048. Then, in fact, may we understand that as industrial trainers, and they are regarded as
far as possible, having regard to the difference teachers, and although the children may be sent
between pauper schools and the schools where out to a Board School, say, for ordinary secular
parents can contribute, and where the locality can instruction, there may be a teacher in the work-
contribute according to certain rules, these schools house, notwithstanding, who takes charge of them
really approsimate as nearly as possible to the out of school hours, and also gives them industrial
elementary schools ?- So far as the examination instruction.
of the children is concerned, they approximate as 2057. The reference to this Committee is,
closely as possible.
speaking generally, under what Minister the
2049. And so far as the remuneration of votes for educational purposes should be severally.
teachers is concerned, do they approximate ?-
placed. Would you see any advantage in trans-
There is an entirely different state of things as ferring the responsibility for the workhouse
regards workhouse teachers. I do not think you
schools, the educational part of the workhouse
can say that there is an approximation.
schools, from the Local Government Board to
2050. Not in result ; do not you think that the
the Education Department ?- There is the fact
that that arrangement was tried for a series of
teacher of a workhouse school, which is as good
years, and was found to work unsatisfactorily,
as an outside elementary school, will receive
and then the alteration was made.
approximately the same remuneration ?--It is
2058. But that was in the very early days of
rather difficult to give a very definite reply to
the Education Department?-It continued from
that, because of late years, since the passing of
1848 till 1862, no doubt.
the Education Act of 1870, there is no doubt
2059. Before the Code ?-Yes.
that the rumuneration of teachers in public ele-
2060. A long time before the Education Act
mentary schools, in consequence of the great of 1870, and even before. Mr. Love's Code?
demand, has increased very materially.
That was so.
2051. Has not the remuneration of workhouse 2061. Do you think under the reformed
school teachers also increased ?-Yes, it has in character of the Education Department there
creased, but I do not think in the same proportion. vould be no advantage in re-transfering the
In some workhouses the schools are very small; schools to the inspection of the Education Depart-
and then again in the workhouse schools the ment?-So far as regards the carrying out the
teachers are provided with board as well as principles of the Code that is done already; and
lodging; that is a disturbing element in making therefore I think that there would be no advan-
any distinct comparison between the remuneration tage in any change from that point of view;
paid in workhouse schools and that paid in public whilst it seems to me that there would be the
elementary schools.
sạme risk of friction and annoyance to boards of
2052. Is there any reason to believe that it is guardians that there was previously.
difficult to obtain teachers having the necessary 2062. Do you think that the schools are as
qualification ?--No, I do not think there is any efficient as they would be if they were inspected
serious difficulty in cases where there is a fair by the Education Department ?-I have no doubt
number of children, but in so many the number whatever as to that, that they are as efficient as
0.51.
Q4
128
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
20 May 1884.]
Mr. HUGA OWEN.
[Continued.
is in exence with th a bonusessuara
Chairman-continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
if they were inspected by Inspectors of the Educa- assigned to them by the guardians on their
tion Department.
appointment, with a bonus if the grant made in
accordance with the certificate which they obtain
Sir Lyon Playfuir.
is in excess of the fixed salary.
2063. Could you give us some tabular returns
2069. I mean, they have the general system
to show the per centage of passes in the different
of the elementary schools, without the direct
standards in the workhouse schools ?-Yes, I have
stimulus of being paid by results ?-That is 80;
with me the report of one of our inspectors for
and this individual examination is necessary for
last year, and he has appended to that a statement
the purpose of granting certificates for employ-
as to that.
ment under the bye-laws.
2064. Is that over a large district ?-Yes, a
very extensive district. Of course it will be re-
2070. Do you find that the unions are increas-
membered in connection with this statement of the ing which employ the elementary schools of the
class of children that are in workhouse schools, country for their children ?-Yes.
that there are a certain number of orphan and 2071. That they are increasing rapidly ?-Yes,
deserted children who remain there for a com- every year there is a considerable addition.
paratively long period; but the fluctuating class
2072. When education becomes more diffused
is a very numerous one, which causes one of the
than it is now, do you think that it will be
great difficulties that teachers have to contend
necessary to keep up a separate class of union
with. It is hardly fair, therefore, to compare these schools ? - The numbers are very large in some
results with those in the ordinary schools.
cases. The cases where unions are sending
2065. But will you give us the absolute children out to school are the cases where the
results ? Certainly.
number of children is hardly sufficient to justify
2066. Take, for instance, standards 3, 4,
the charge which falls upon the guardians of a
and 5?-In standard 3 the number presented separate workhouse school; that is at present
in the English part of the district was 745 : 627 the strong inducement. What in former days was
passed in reading ; 584 in writing ; 505 in arith- desired very much, was to establish district
metic. In standard 4, 525 were presented : schools ; but the number of children in the
493 passed in reading; 405 in writing ; 314 in schools would have involved including in one
arithmetic. In standard 6, 184 were presented: district so many unions that the area would have
159 passed in reading ; 146 in writing ; 98 in been so great, and the expense of sending back-
arithmetic. In standard 6, 49 were presented : wards and forwards the children of the fluctuat-
47 passed in reading: 47 in writing ; and 43 in ing class (because you would have to send them
arithmetic. Taking the totals of those presented alĩ there; otherwise you must keep up a separate
in the several standards in England, the num school in the workhouse as well) such, that that
bers were :-total presented, 2,885 ; passed in bas tended most seriously to prevent the
reading, 2,606 ; in writing, 2,512 ; in arithmetic, establishment of district schools except in the
2,208.
case of the metropolitan unions, which have
2067. Then, if I understand rightly, the
some district schools with as many as 1,500
standards and the system are the same in your
children.
schools as in the elementary schools, with the
Mr. Jumes Campbell.
exception that the teachers are not paid by direct
results of individual examination ?--That is so. 2073. You speak of the schools in England
2068. That they are paid by the general and Wales only ?-Yes.
character which the inspector draws from the 2074. Not of Scotland ?-No, ve hare 10
state of the school ?-- They are paid the salary jurisdiction at all with regard to that.
1
arithmetic." reading; 44in. 49 were preses
Mr. LEONARD H. COURTNEY (a Member of the House);. Examined.
direct,101 in com, either untions of floured. I
Chairman.
Chairman--continued,
2075. THE Committee have been appointed to Estimates presented by the Secretary to the
consider how the Ministerial responsibility under Treasury, and is put from the Chair; but
which the Votes for Education and Science and generally a non-official member of the House,
Art are administered, can be best secured. I who happens to be a Trustee, attends and supports
think that some of the institutions of tliis charac- the Vote.
ter are at present either under control of the 2078. When the British Museum Trustees
Treasury, or in communication with the Treasury desire to incur any novel expenditure, either in
direct, in respect of their expenditure ; is not framing the Estimate or after the Estimate is
that the case ?-Yes, I think that is so.
passed, they communicate direct with the
2076. For instance, the British Museum, which Treasury ? - They do so.
is under the control of no Department adminis- 2079. And the Treasury has therefore 10
tratively, corresponds directly with the Treasury department between it and the British Museum ?
No, the Trustees, through their Secretary,
2077. The Vote is proposed, I think, by one of communicate direct to the Treasury.
the Trustees, but practically you, as Secretary to 2080. It has been suggested that in the case of
the Treasury, have to speak to it in the House ? the British Museum, and also in the case of some
--Technically, the Vote, as you are aware, is not other institutions (we will take the British
proposed by any one; it is included in the Museum first), it might be well to interpose a
Minister
tively, correnture ? - Yes... I think, by one
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
129
20 May 1884.]
Mr. COURTNEY, M.P.
[Continued.
ment unaointed, or elmstruction, if
Chairman-continued,
Chairman--continued.
Minister of Public Instruction, if such an officer 2085, You will remember that one of the
were appointed, or even the Education Depart. divisions of the Ashburnham Collection was called
ment under the present system for England and an Appendix, and contained a great number of
Scotland; what would be your opinion upon that works very similar to those that South Kensing-
point?-I should rather like to know in respect ton would be very glad to get; do not you think
to what branch of the administration the proposal that some advice as to the purchase of that
is made. Does it refer to the economy of expen- fourth part miglt have been expedient?-I
diture or to the organisation of the establishment, think the advantage of such advice very slight,
or to bringing it into connection with other insti- and more than counterbalanced by considerations
tutions of a cognate character.
to which the Treasury would have regard.
2081. I should say all three. The suggestion 2086. Therefore then, on the whole, so far as
has been made as to all three, both as to organi- the purchases of the British Museum are con-
sation and as to expenditure. For instance, this cerned, except in the limited case where those
question has been put more than once : suppose purchases might compete with purchases of the
the British Museum want to make a purchase Science and Art Department, you would not see
involving an expenditure, should that application any advantage in the interposition of a minister of
come direct to the Treasury, either to the Cabinet education ?--I see no advantage as regards the
Ministers who are in the Treasury, or to the perfection of the museum; I see considerable
Board of the Treasury generally, or should it disadvantage as regards the economic control.
come through a Department of Education. In 2087. And would you say the same thing as
the same way, when questions of organisation to organisation ?-Yes, I would say the same
come up, some of which are very difficult, should thing with reference to that.
they reach the Treasury with the advice of a 2088. Then, passing from the British Museum
Department, such as a Department of Public to the National Gallery, the National Gallery
Instruction, or should they go direct. Will you Vote is a Vote in form and in substance moved
take those two points ?-I can conceive of a case by the Secretary to the Treasury; he is respon-
in which the British Museum desired funds to sible for it in the House of Commons ?-Yes.
effect purchases, and some other institution, such, 2089. Would you iriterpose there between the
for example, as the South Kensington Institu- National Gallery and the Treasury a Ministry
tion, also wanted funds for similar purposes; I of Education and Fine Arts, if one were created ?
think, for instance, in the late Castellani sale, I think not.
the representatives of the British Museum and 2090. And certainly not, as I gather from you,
of the South Kensington Museum were both the present Education Department ?-Certainly
desirous of making purchases. There might be not.
some advantage in such a case in bringing the 2091. Would you give the Committee a
two applications for purchases under the con- reason, or is it the same as the reason you have
sideration of a Minister of Education or Fine given in the case of the British Museum?-I
Arts in the first place; but I conceive that that think one great reason is that if you appoint a
is practically effected now by their being both Minister to a departinent of that kind he falls too
brought to the Treasury. The two institutions much in love with it. It is his duty, like that
do to some extent work together, and although of every other Minister, to magnify his office.
each may apply separately to the Treasury for He cherishes a sort of ideal which might be ato
the funds necessary for such a purpose, their tained, and is always eager for the enlargement
applications would be considered together by of the scope of the functions of his particular
the Treasury, and the Treasury, pro hâc vice, department, and the Treasury would certainly
acts as the Minister.
have greater difficulty in controlling an ambitious
2082. In the case of the South Kensington colleague, than it has in controlling an indepen-
Museum it is under the Department of Educa- dent organisation like that of the Director and
tion; and therefore between the Treasury and Trustees of the National Gallery
the officials of South Kensington there is a 2012. And the same argument would apply, I
Minister or Ministry of Education ?- That is so. presume, to the outlying institutions of this
2083. But in the case of the British Museum character in Dublin and in Edinburgh ?-Yes.
there is nobody between ?- That is so.
Of course ihe Treasury does propose grants to
2084. And therefore in judging of the pro- Parliament for other purposes; scientific pur-
priety of a large purchase like that of the poses; grants-in-aid of particular scientific inves-
Ashburnham Collection last year, the First Lord tigations; grants to the Royal Society; grants
of the Treasury and the Chancellor of the such as were made for the “ Challenger " Expe-
Exchequer have no advice from the Department dition. All those grants would stand in pre-
of Education and Fine Arts, but have to act upon cisely the same relation to science as the grants
their own judgment ?--My observation in ansiver to the National Gallery and the galleries of
to your former question was especially applied to Edinburgh and Dublin do to Art; and if they
purchases that might be connected with purchases were brought under a Minister of Education, I
made by other branches of whatı might be called should apprehend much the same difficulty on
the national administration of science or art. the part of the Treasury in dealing with them as
Where the British Museum makes an application I do apprehend with respect to the proposal to
siich as you refer to now for funds for the purchase put the National Gallery under a Minister of
of the Ashburnham Manuscripts, my observations Art.
would not apply. There I conceive there would 2093, And you have not observed any want of
be no advantage in having the application made knowledge in the staff of the Treasury in dealing
through a Minister of Education.
with these institutions ?—I think not. The Trea-
0.51.
sury,
ry, other sort of idear for the en particular
in control roula Particular
their own on and Hindvice fro,
R
130
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
20 May 1884.]
Mr. COURTNEY, M.P.
[Continued.
Jurica
2103. But he possesses them
m at Dart Departmenáve not beenblin, to
have occasion administe ask the E. you obligedence
administer Dolly applied to of these Votes ciety to
he Royal SocietWe the Gallery Votes, ates, Natural fithat kind; the
Chairman--continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
sury, if not sufficiently well informed itself, is He might provide himself with them; they would
always ready to receive information and to con- be very expensive auxiliaries.
sult those who are specially competent to advise. 2103. But he possesses them in reality, does
2094. Some of these institutions are at present, he not, even now. The Vice President of the
I think, under the Science and Art Department, Council has his own officers, Professor Huxley,
are they not, the Museum at Edinburgh, and the Professor Guthrie, and many others in Science,
Museum at Dublin ?- They are branches of the and he has his referees in art, who are artists of
Science and Art Department, but the purchases great eminence; he possesses them already there-
made on their account have not been large. fore ; and would it not be natural that con-
The establishments at Edinburgh and Dublin, to sultation should be made amongst these experts
which I was referring, were the National Gal upon the administration of such Votes ?-Of
leries.
course we possess the advantage of Professor
Huxley's assistance as the President of the
Sir Lyon Playfair.
Royal Society.
2104. But I am not speaking of the Royal
2095. With regard to some of the Science Society Vote, but general Votes of that kind; the
Votes to which you refer, are not you obliged, for British Museum Votes, Natural History Votes,
want of a Minister, to ask the Royal Society to Art Gallery Votes, and other Votes of that kind.
be the actual administerer of these Votes ?-We The Minister would possess the highest know-
have occasionally applied to the Royal Society to ledge in Science and Art actually amongst his
administer Votes, but my impression is that if own officers ?--No doubt he might have an
there were a special Minister he would be obliged entourage of that kind, but as I venture to say,
to avail himself of the same organisation.
it would be expensive, and I do not think the
2096. Take your Meteorological Vote, for in- assistance rendered would be worth the cost.
stance, and your Vote for Scientific Investiga- 2105. Your view naturally is the view of
tions, of 4,000 l. ; the one is entirely administered having a rigid economy exercised upon the public
by the Royal Society, and the other reports to funds ?-I do not wish to push that to the extent
the Royal Society as a sort of Minister ?—The of injuring any scientific or artistic organi.
4,000 1. is entirely administered by the Royal sation.
Society ; it is a grant-in-aid, in fact, to the re 2106. Supposing that the views of the public
sources of the Royal Society.
are very much in advance of the views of
2097. They deny that; they say that they the Treasury in regard to public expenditure
administer it, but that the Vote is simply put into upon Science and Art, where would be the harm,
their administration. But in the case of the if that view was expressed by the Minister, who
10,000 1. for the Meteorological Vote, the Meteor- you say would fall in love with the subject. At
ological officers report to the Royal Society, do all events there might be some better chance of
they not?-Yes, that is so.
impressing the Treasury with the views of the
2098. That is really equivalent to having a outside public in favour of a greater liberality in
society as the Minister who sees to the proper expenditure for Science and Art ?-" The views
application of those Votes ?- We use the Royal of the public” is a very vague phrase. A cer-
Society, that is to say.
tain number of persons no doubt would be very
2095. The Treasury do not feel that they are eager to enlarge the functions of the State in
an administrative body capable of exercising relation to scientific inquiry and scientific re-
ministerial functions upon Votes, such as these ? search; they would be heard, and would make
-I apprehend that very much the same thing themselves felt, and would impress themselves
would be seen where special Votes are placed upon the Minister; but if you are going to take the
under the nominal control of special depart- views of the public into consideration as a whole,
ments.
you must also take those of the dumb masses, who
2100. But would it not be more natural that a may be said to be represented by the Treasury.
Minister of Science and Art, or of Education 2107. But the Treasury is a power behind
including Art, should look to the administration the Minister preventing any extravagant ex-
of these Votes than the Treasury, which has not penditure ; it would be in addition to the
such special functions, should do so?- I have a Minister; so that if the Minister was extra-
difficulty in understanding the word “ natural”. vagant the Treasury is there to suppress his
in that sense. My impression is that any extravagance ?-Yes, but as you probably are
Minister that you created (he would be a Par- aware, in the House of Commons, although it is
liamentary Minister, I presume) would be per- periodically given to economy in the abstract,
sonally as little competent to look to the practically the pressure is always in favour of
administration as the Treasury.
expenditure ; and if you get a Minister who
2101. But is he not surrounded by officers rises in his place, and states, or even lets it be
with special technical knowledge upon all these known privately that his opinion is in favour of a
branches ?- When you say " surrounded,” he has special expenditure you will find that the resist-
persons who are accessible to him to whom he ance of the Treasury is feeble and inefficient.
applies, just as the Treasury may be said to have 2108. You would take such a case, perhaps,
the Royal Society accessible to it.
as that which has just occurred in the German
2102. But the Treasury has not, for instance, Parliament; that Parliament has roted 6,000 1.
special experts in Art, or special experts in to Dr. Koch for discovering the bacillus of the
Science, amongst its officers; but would not such cholera; would you think that that would be a
a Minister have special experts in Science, and case where Parliament would entirely outweigh
special experts in Art, among his own officers ? — any economical views of the Treasury ?-I am
not
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
131
20 May 1884.]
Mr. COURTNEY, M.P.
[Continued.
Sir Lyon Playfair-continued.
Mr. Herbert-continued.
not aware of the rules of procedure in the Ger. tions by the amount that they can possibly have
man Parliament. Of course no such Vote could at their command.
arise here except on the proposition of a respon- 2111. Do not you think that if, in the case of
sible Minister.
such institutions as the British Museum and the
2109. But supposing that the public thought National Gallery, the Vote were placed in the
that a most admirable Vote (as the scientific bands of a responsible Minister of Education,
public certainly do), do you think, that on the there might be the danger of the Minister of
plan of going directly to the Treasury as now, Education cutting down the vote in the first
any such liberality would have been likely to place, and the danger of the Treasury cutting
come from the Treasury if Dr. Koch had been down the Vote in the second place ? That is
an Englishman ?-I do not know; I could not quite chimerical.
offer an opinion.
2112. Then, as a matter of fact, you think
Mr. Herbert.
that when you are asked about, and have to judge
upon, the advisability of granting money for the
2110. With regard to the question of the ten-
purpose of purchases for either of these institu-
dency on the part of a Minister to increase ex-
ex- tions, you would rather consult, and talk the
penditure, I believe it is the case. that the Trea-' thing over directly with, the actual experts, which
sury generally press upon the different depart- the trustees or the secretary of those institutions
ments the absolute necessity of economy ?-The
would be, than talk it over with one who would
Treasury, as you are aware, has to provide the be, I suppose, a go-between ?-Yes; at the best
money, and being very unwilling to apply to Par- he would be a fifth wheel in the coach. Gene-
liament to increase the taxes at any time, it fre-
rally he would be a powerful supporter of the
quently has to remonstrate with Ministers, and demand for money,
is under the necessity of curbing their inclina-
1
0.51.
R 2
LIST OF APPENDIX.
Appendix, No. 1.
Paper handed in by Sir P. J. Keenan, 25 March 1884:
PAGE.
Statement showing, at different Intervals, the Population of Ireland, and the develop-
ment of the National System of Education since its establishment • .
- 133
Appendix, No. 2.
Paper handed in by the Chairman :
Letter from Mr. Alan S. Cole to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, dated 20, Redcliffe
Road, S.W., 19 March 1884 .
-
134
Appendix, No. 3.
Paper handed in by the Chairman :
Letter from Sir George Young, Bart., to the Chairman of the Committee, dated
Charity Commission, 22 May 1884 -
- 136
[ 133 ]
A
P
P
E
N
D
I
X.
.
Appendix, No. 1.
PAPER handed in by Sir P. J. Keenan, 25 March 1884.
STATEMENT showing, at different Intervals, the Population of Ireland, and the
development of the National System of Education since its establishment.
Population.
Schools.
Pupils
on Rolls.
Parliamentary Grant
(including Buildings).
£.
25,000
S. d.
.-
1833
-
-
-
7,851,988
789
107,042
1842
·
·
8,220,926
2,721
319,792
50,000
-
-
1852
-
-
-
6,336,889
4,875
544,604
164,577 -
-
1862
-
-
-
5,77.5,588
6,010
812,527
317,635 -
-
1872
-
-
5,372,890
7,050
960,434
535,960
-
-
1882
-
-
-
5,097,730
7,705
1,083,298
758,175
-
-
0.51.
R 3
134
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE
Appendix, No. 2.
PAPER handed in by the Chairman.
LETTER from Mr. Alan S. Cole to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Dear Sir,
20, Redcliffe Road, S.W., 19 March 1884.
In a forthcoming account of my father's 50 years of public service I have included a
reference to some notes on Public Education which he framed in 1867, and which I thought
might perhaps be of some interest in connection with the work of the Select Committee
on the Administration of Education, Science, and Art. I therefore venture to send you
the enclosed rough proof, and would say that, if the Committee cared, I could submit a
complete copy of my father's notes, which are here condensed.
I have, &c.
The Right Hon. the
(signed) Alan S Cole.
Chancellor of the Exchequer.
(Enclosurf.'
PUBLIC EDUCATION, PRIMARY AND SECONDARY.
Public education,
primary and
secondary.
the chis why mould bents be
Secondary or tech-
nical instruction.
During the vice-presidentship of Lord Robert Montagu, Mr. Cole was invited to
submit to him a few notes on Public Education, which were merely “brief suggestions
for maintaining and improving the then existing arrangements," rather than proposals
“ for any new or comprehensive plan.” The headings of these notes are somewhat as
follows :-Under elementary education : payments on results for reading, writing, and
ciphering should be made without conditions as to the employment of certificated
teachers. Such conditions being removed, State aid could be easily extended to all
schools throughout the country, and a partial if not perfect system of national education
would be possible without disturbance to the existing voluntary system. The status of a
certificated teacher might be recognized as advantageous to the possessor of it, by (a) a
low registration fee, whether employed or not; () an augmentation grant, when
employed; and (c) a capitation grant, for the attendance and good order of his school.
All idle vagrants under twelve should be sent to the union schools, and the parents be
compelled to pay towards their teaching. A permissive local rating Bill would be very
desirable ; “it exists already for libraries, art schools, and museums, why not for primary
instruction ? ” Measures might be usefully taken to induce the children of all classes of
society to attend elementary schools. Under secondary or technical instruction, he
recommended that
- The managers of elementary schools should be free to establish classes for
teaching science through certificated teachers, and that payments on results be made
to them, and that all fears of competition with elementary education be ignored.”
“If effective measures can be taken to deal with the funds and management of the .
old free and common grammar schools, the teaching of art and science might be
usefully introduced into them.”
The State might, with advantage, establish, at the cost of a few thousand pounds,
professorships with prizes, and perhaps scholarships for science, at Eton, Harrow, Rugby,
&c., as well as at the universities. Four establishments should be formed in the nature
of training colleges for teaching practical science.
Public libraries, galleries, and museums should be viewed as the highest instru-
ments of public instruction. Full labels, inventories, and catalogues should be
prepared as well for the learned as the unlearned visitor.”
Both
ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
135
INI
· Both on religious and moral grounds, Mr. Cole recommended,
Opening of
museums on
That arrangements be made as at Kew Gardens and museums, Hampton Court, Sunday.
and Greenwich picture galleries, to admit the public to national institutions on
Sunday afternoons."
Public libraries and museums, supported in the main by public funds, should be placed, Public libraries and
for reasons of efficiency and economy, under a Minister of the Crown. Boards of museums under a
numerous members are obstructive for executive management, though useful for counsel. M
1 Minister of the
• Crown.
The institutions specially referred to in this respect were the British Museum, the
National Gallery, National Portrait Gallery, Patent Museum, in London ; also the
National Gallery and Royal Irish Academy in Dublin, and the National Gallery
in Edinburgh. In conclusion, he summed up the general principles of administration
thus :
6 I consider that elementary education, secondary or technical instruction, the
management of public libraries, galleries, and museums, and all the Votes for
Education, Science, and Art, should be concentrated in the administration of them, so
far as the expenditure of public funds at least is concerned, under the sole authority
of the same Minister of the Crown. This Minister of Public Instruction ought not, A Minister of
I think, to be the Lord President of the Council. The work is ample enough to Public Instruction.
engage the sole attention of a Minister who, I venture to say, ought to rank as a
Secretary of State. He would sit in either House, according to the circumstances
of the Cabinet. There should be an Under Secretary also in Parliament.
- In my opinion, the present work at the Privy Council Office, with all the calls
for charters, health, cattle plague, quarantine, &c., made upon the attention of the
Lord President, make it impossible for that high functionary to devote sufficient
time to numerous questions involved in public instruction, viewed comprehensively.
• To enlarge elementary education, making it truly national, to reform educa-
tional charities, to increase technical instruction throughout the United Kingdom;
to reorganize the British Museum, the National Gallery, the National Portrait
Gallery, &c., so as to make them work efficiently and harmoniously together, are
functions which ought not, I conceive, to be treated as of secondary importance to
any others.”
nsider thatblic libraries, gable concentrated in thed, under the sole autht not, A Ministerstruction.
down. This MunicitThe works ought to rankiances
chnical imate National and harmonio
0.51.
R4
.
.136
APPENDIX:--EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART (ADMINISTRATION).
Appendix, No. 3.
PAPER handed in by the Chairman.
LETTER from Sir George Young, Bart., to the Chairman of the Committee.
Dear Mr. Childers,
Charity Commission, 22 May 1884.
I AVAIL myself of your permission to state my views of the degree to which machinery
is required for the effectual supervision of secondary schools, for which a scheme has
been established under the provisions of the Endowed Schools Acts.
Besides the inquiries and inspections which have, in some cases, been conducted by our
Assistant Commissioners, appointed under the Endowed Schools Acts, with the object of
establishing, if necessary, an amending scheme, we already possess, over endowed schools
under scheme, all the powers which are conferred by the Charitable Trusts Acts of
inspection and inquiry (Charitable Trusts Act, 1853, ss. 9–15,61; Charitable Trusts Act,
1855, ss. 6–9, 44, 45), including those of requiring the production of accounts in such
form as we think fit, and of obtaining evidence. These powers have recently been
exercised in improving the forms of account required from educational charities, as also
in obtaining the useful and important Return as to scholarships and exhibitions moved
for by Earl Fortescue in the House of Lords, and ordered to be printed 14th March
1884. For the purpose of obtaining information as to the working of schemes, of inquiring
in cases that need inquiry, and of investigation into the causes of failure, when a scheme
has failed, these powers appear to me to be sufficient.
As has been brought out in the evidence given by Mr. Longley on our behalf before
the Committee on the Charitable Trusts Acts which is now sitting, what is still wanted
in this respect is rather that the subordinate staff of the office should be strengthened to
a degree which will enable us to exercise an effectual supervision of accounts; and further,
that we should have a summary power of surcharge, after audit, in cases where expen-
diture has been incurred contrary to the express directions of a scheme. I do not think
that a pericdical inspection is more necessary for schools under scheme than for other
charities; and indeed, considering the character of the governing bodies we establish, I
should say it was, if anything, less necessary. In this respect I seem to differ from the
evidence of Mr. Richmond (Questions 1579–1584). I do not consider, moreover, that any
authoritative educational inspection of secondary schools is called for, as distinct from the
special inquiries provided for by the Charitable Trusts Acts on the one hand, and from
the examination of scholars on the other. In this respect I agree with the evidence of
Mr. Cumin (Questions 1309–1312, 1334-1348). It, however, deserves consideration
whether, for the purpose of conducting special inquiries in the case of schools, special
experience should not be sought for, such as is possessed by our Assistant Commissioners,
in order to strengthen the permanent staff of the inspectors of charities.
With regard to the examination of scholars, I cannot go so far as is, perhaps, implied
by Mr. Richmond's evidence (Questions 1585, 1600, 1607), in advocating the direction of
the examinations, as distinct from the appointment or recommendation of examiners, by
an authority independent of the governing body of the school, whether such authority is
reposed in a Government Department or in a Committee of the Universities. Exami-
nation, I think, should be the handmaid of teaching, and should follow, not lead, the
teaching given in the school. To organise or systematise examinations implies that
different schools are to be examined on the same papers, and the inevitable result is, that
the Examinations Board will dictate the teaching. I understand, however, from Mr.
Richmond that in this part of his evidence he wished rather to lay stress on the importance
of examining the work of a school all through, not merely the work of selected boys, in
which I concur with him; and that, in his opinion, as in my own the independence of
teaching should be carefully guarded.
I remain, &c.
(signed) George Young,
One of Her Majesty's Commissioners of Charities appointed
under the Endowed Schools Acts.
The Right Hon, the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
s to excreidinate staffientia now on our
radical inspectioncontrar y con enor sure he atual superfice should what is chal,
regardond's evidence from the appointment the school, whethe
R
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E
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Education, Science, and Art
(Administration)
Ordered, by The House of Commons, iv le Printed,
31 July 1884.
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312.
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