SiTk ^a^ ^VVib IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) /. J ^^ ^^v/- i.O LI 1.25 i^m |2.5 ■so "^^ iinim Ki 1^ 1 2.2 :i: i;^ III 2.0 1.8 LA. mil 1.6 ^» y # /J // Ss. Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WIST MAIN STRiiT WiBSTIRN Y MS80 (716) •7a-4S03 \' V ^ ' \\ - ^ ;\ h Am ^ ^ CIHM/ICMH Microfiche Series. CIHM/ICMH Collection de microfiches. Canadian Institute for Historical Microreproductions / institut Canadian de microreproductions historiques Technical and Bibliographic Notes/Notes techniques et bibliographiques The Institute has attempted to obtain the best original copy available for filming. Features of this copy which may be bibliographically unique, which may alter any of the images in the reproduction, or which may significantly change the usual method of filming, are checked below. L'institut a microfilmd le meilleur exemplaire qu'il lui a 9ti possible de se procurer. Les details de cet exemplaire qui sont peut-dtre uniques du point de vue bibliographique, qui peuvent modifier une image reproduite. ou qui peuvent exiger une modification dans la m^thode normale de filmage sont indiquis ci-dessous. □ Coloured covers/ Couvarture de couleur D D □ □ Covers damaged/ Couverture endommagee Covers restored and/or laminated/ I I Couverture restaurie et/ou peiliculde D Cover title missing/ Le titre de couverture manque □ Coloured maps/ Cartes gAographiquas en couleur □ Coloured ink (i.e. other than blue or black)/ Encre de couleur (i.e. autre que bleue ou noire) Coloured plates and/or illustrations/ Planches et/ou illustrations an couleur Bound with other material/ Relii avec d'autros documents □ Tight binding may cause shadows or distortion along interior margin/ Lareliure serrde peut causer de I'ombr^ ou da la distorsion I* long de la margs intirieura D Blank leaves added during restoration may appear within the text. Whenever possible, these have been omitted from filming/ II sa peut que certaines pages blanches ajoutAes lors dune restauration apparaissent dans la texte, mail, lorsque cela 4tait posiible. ces pages n ont pas M film^at. Additional comments:/ Commentaires supplementaires; □ Coloured pages/ Pages de couleur Pages damaged/ Pages endommag^es n Pages restored and/or laminated/ Pages restaur^es et/ou pelliculdes Pages discoloured, stained or foxed/ Pages d^colcrdes, tachet^es ou piquees r~~] Pages detached/ D Pages ditachees Showthrough/ Transparence Quality of prir Qualiti inAgale de {'impression I 71 Showthrough/ I I Quality of print varies/ □ Includes supplementary material/ Comprond du maiiriel supplementaire □ Only edition available/ Saule Edition disponible Pages wholly or partially obscured by errata slips, tissues, etc., have been refilmed to ensure the best possible image/ Les pages totalement ou partiellement obscurcies par un feuillet d'errata. une pelure. etc , ont *ti filmies A nouveau do facon A obtenir la meilleur* image possible. This item is filmed at the reduction ratio checked below/ Ca document est filmA au taux de reduction indiquA ci-dessous. 10X 14X 18X 22X MX 30X 13X ItX 20X / 24X 28X 32X ails du difier Line lage 'rata o )elure. 32X The copy filmed here has been reproduced thanks to the generosity of: Seminary of Quebec Library The images appearing here are the best qunlity possible considering the condition and legibility of thi original copy and in Iteeping with the filming contract stpecif ications. Original copies in printed paper covers are filmed beginning with the front cover and ending on the last page with a printed or illustrated impres- sion, or the back cover when appropriate. All other original copies are filmed beginning on the first page with a printed or illustrated impres- sion, and ending on the last page with a printed or illustrated impression. The last recorded frame on each microfiche shall contain the symbol —♦-(meaning "CON- TINUED"), or the symbol V (meaning "END"), whichever applies. Maps, plates, charts, etc.. may be filmed at different reduction ratios. Those too large to be entirely included in one exposure »re filmed beginning in the upper left hand corner, left to right and top to bottom, as many frames as required. The following diagrams illustrate the method: 1 2 3 L'oxemplaire film* fut reproduit grSce d la gin^rositi de: S^minaire de Quebec Bibliothique Les Images suivantes ont 6t6 reproduites avec le plus grand soin. compte tenu de la condition at de la nettetd de I'exemplaire filmA. et en conformity avec les conditions du contrat de filmage. Los exemplaires originaux dont la couverture en papier est imprimie sont fiimAs en commen9ant par le premier plat et en terminant soit par la derniire page qui comporte une empreinte d'impression ou d'iliustration. soit par le second plat, salon le cas. Tous les autres exemplaires origineux sont fiimds en commen^ant par la premidra page qui comporte une empreinte d'impression ou d'iliustration et en terminant par ta dernidre page qui comporte une telle empreinte. Un des symboles suivants apparaTtra sur la derniire image de cheque microfiche, selon la cas: le symbole — »► signifie "A SUIVRE". la symbole V signifie "FIN". Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc.. peuvent 4tre filmds it des taux de reduction diffirents. Lorsque le document est trop grand pour Atre reproduit en un seul clich6, il est film* A partir de Tangle supA^ieur gauche, de gauche A droite. et de haut en bas, en prenant le nombrr d'images nicessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mAthode. 1 2 3 4 5 6 i % % ^ ciu 9t^ >-/ fiouse of Coinmons Beb^tes. THIRD SESSION-SEVENTH PARIJAMENT SPEECH OF SIR HECTOR LANGEVIN, M.P., ON ?'__rye_de I'UniversiL^, f!ir HECTOR -TjA^EVIN. Mi-. Sp-nkor, 1 do iiol liitencV^lijUowinj? tin lion. Keii'l'n Tirevious to C )ufe(ler;itiou, but also for - - — " ' "■■ ■- '^fv- - "v.!..,^, iv^K lu,-;; [.it^viuu.-* lu vj>iii.t;iii;i;iuou, our aiso lor hnps the Oi.lestrepresentuliye here c.Kcopt one, the three pi-ovhiees should thev wish lohavo I should "xpress my views about this a .^v.^teui of separate schools afterwards. n„o«.i,.„ »i,i<.i, 1..,^ iw.,... ,...i..,.i I.,. +1... Should they decide' to eslabllsh a, systim of sci.iii'.iic schools, thnso .s( h.irali' sciiools were to be in tlie same position as similar .schools in Oiihirio and Quebec, and Uie sy;-teni could qiu'stlou wliicli has b(H>u raised by tlu lion, member for L'Islet (Mr. Tartc;. The hoii. iri'iilleiuau (Mr. McCMrlliyl wlio has Just taken his seat, has stated that we cannot Impose separate sclifiols ou Prince Kdw.ird Island, Xova Sctiti.a or \ew IJiiiiis- wick. Well, that is not a new thin;;-, liecauso wh(>n the conference took place in London for th<> Confederation o " thi>se provinces, the question arose there whetlu-r we should not give all the.se three provinces the sjiine sys- tem of separate' scliools as we had, ami as we sHU hav( and fjuebec. And we Mere imanim ais In sayimj that we were not taero to make laws for tile different provinces, but t> talc'> the laws of the y li.ul l.ee'n njiplied by (heir dill'ei'enl Ledsla hires. And, therefore, thoujjh tlie pnvsisnro was very not lie clianged or altered except at the will of th(> peoidt^ interested in sucli schools. Tlierefore. ,Mr. Speaker, when (lie hoii. geiitleniau says this, he may not Is tiiined and should exist, as It was tho free V'Ol'V .sfl'iilM'- we r'Mlllil niW jl,» it y\ri\ iWA »w.,f .1.. t\'lll t\f ♦!»« i^.w.i.1.^ 41..,*- *l „l i.i i. .1 . very stroiii;. we could iml d,( M, we did not do It, .'uid th{> C )nfey should l)e tJiere. But, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentlem.-m consid- ers (hat in that provinc- there is oidv ono so<',tlon of the p(v>ple who have rights -tJio majorKy, thi» Protestant majority, who nro oiiposed to s(>pamte selioola— and tliat wo who favour si^parnte schools should not be conidder(>d by this Ilouse or by the (lovern- ment. Tlie Act of 1870, the Manitoba Act, lu-ovidtfi specially for a case of this kind, it says : In anil fur tlie I'xeliiHivelv nniki I 111 i\ nice, lilWH ii the Hiiiil l,e 1 I'eliLl lull f ,'iMlatiire iii:iy fdiK-ati'.in, Mubjet't ftiid accordiiijf to the following proviHions, — The three soctious which follow have been read several tiuios and I do not intend to read them more than is nocessai'y for my argument. Ir shoidd be noted that It is clearly provided that— Nothing' in any sut-ii law ^liall j)rfj\iflic'ially affect any i'if,'lit IT jirivil<'<;(' with rcs|pi'ct t.i dcnnniinalidiKil schools wliicii any I'hiss of jici'-i'ns liavc liy law or practice in tlic [irovincf at tin' I'liion. The hon. gentleman says there was no law, therefore the words " by law " sh()iild not apply, and that tlioy are mere surplusage. But he says the question of practice is another tiling and tlint it has been decided against (innlly by the Trivv Council in Eng- land. Tlierol'ore he goes on iind speaks of the appeal under the next subsection and says tliat cvidontly llicsi' tilings are there as a dead letter. ITe did not use those words, but that is the ni(>aning of liis argu- ment ; therefore, (lie laws passed in 1871, 1S7;> and 1'<1^> are not to be considered. Tlie lion, gentleni.'in fjays that the n-fereiiee in the hnv of ISTO t<> rights under the law must refin* to hn\ s jiassed jirevious to that Act. And lie goi's further and says (T tliink I took down his words) "until Novemlter last it never occurred to any one that sub- section .'i of section 0.'? of tln^ nritish North Araei'ica Act could apply to Manitolia." Under the Ib'itish North America ,\ct there were tln> four provinces oC Ontario, (}ueboc, Nova Scotia and New Bnmswiclv. Prince Ed'vard Isl.-nid coming in afterwards. Tlie ho;, u'entleman might, perliaps. Iiave quoted, ■when spo.akiiig of the ^Fanitoba .\ct. the second section of that Act. which says : On. fi'Miii i.M'l ;:fi''r tlio ■^■li'l 'lay on wliich tin- onlrv of tln' <,'n'in in ''ouni'il :.\\ ill take cffi'ot as a.foresiiil, thp iirovi-i.ins of the Uritisli North .Vinerica .Act, 18117, ■'liall, cNCfiit those parts tlien'iif whi;h are in terniK made, orliy reasoni.Uk iiiten(liu<'tjt, in:!y lie helil to be sjiecially a|i|illcilile to or only to affect one or more, lint n,H tin' whole of the provinces now compos- in(f the non.ii'.ion, and e\ecpt s.i far as the sanw may be \,arled by this \et. be a|)]ili',;alil" to the province of Matiiiiilia, in tin same way. and to the like extent as thev apply to tin' several proviii<-es of Canada, and ■i» if the province nf Manilolia had tieen one of the )irovinces orii,'inally ntiili' I l>y the saitl Act. Well, this Is certainly a strong reason, wlileh I have no doidit, convinced the sMb-commlt- tce of the Privy Council wlu>n they sent their report to tii(> Council, whitdi was adopted on the 2!)tli December, ISO'J, and in wlilcli thoy say that among th(> (piesiions wlilch the sub-coimnlttee regarded tis preliminary was the following :— Whether Kiibsei'fioii .'1 of section JIH of the 15ritish Noilh America .\ct applies to Manitolia. Well, that clause c(>rl;ilnly Is a stronn r<'ason why the Allnlsters who had this matter under their consideration, should have tidonsidor;Ulon at that time, and sliould have minle the report Ihey did. tli.Mt Is to say, tli.at tliey desired to know wliether that tliird s disecllon of the 93rd section of the British North America Act applies to Manitoba. The hon. gentle- man who preceded me has given strength to tliat (jpinion, when lie said just now, sifter discussing tlie two lirst subsections of tlio 22iid section of the Manitolia Act : Oil, well that is the same tis blanlc paper, it is use- less, it is of no effect. Wtdl, if it is of no effect, it docs not tipply even to tlie hiw or practice that existed in the province at the time of the Union ; and then " a fortiori " the tliird section of the 93ixl section of the BiT/tish North America Act should apply when we read the si>cond section of the Miiuitoba Aec, which s,ays : On. from ami afler the said day on wliich tliu order of the i^liiccn in ^'oimcil That is to say, to put the Act in force - shall take effect as aforesaid, the |)rovisi(mH of the llriiish North .Vmerii/a. Act, lS('i7, shall, e.\ce))t those paits there', f wliich are in terms made, or by rciisonalile intendment, may lie held te he specially .ipplicalile to or only to .affect one or mo:e, lint not the whole (>f tiie i.ro\inces now CMinpiisin^' the Dom- inion, and e\ri pt sii far .is tlii' same may lie varied by tliis .Vet, lie i|i|ilicalile to the province ;)f Manitob.a. Well, that Ciuinot be vailt^d liy tlio Mani- toba Act, when the lion, gentleman says himself fliat it is of no effect ; therefore, in the .Maniioba .\ct this (piestioti of scliools wiis not proviifed for as intciuhHl by tlio Britisli Nortli America Act, and this second section of the Manitob.a Aet itself. But, .Mr. Speaker, flu." Act of l.S7() was passed !ind aeceiitod by Ihe people, and tifterwards the l.,ogisl;iiure ji.assed tliree other Acts in 1871, 1.S7.'! and 1,S7."). The first Act was "An .\ct to I'stabllsh a System of lOdui atlon in tlie Province of ^lanitobti," and was jiassed on th(^ ".rd May, 1871. That Act constituted !i Board of lOuucalion, under wliicli they tippointed !i suiierintendeiit tind secretary, iind tlie Act regul.ated the meetings of tlio board, tlio (pioruni. th<> calling of the meet- ings, tli(> cliainii.an. duties anieiidmeiils that the tltity of the boanl of (Hlneation shiiil lie fo ali(>r sinil subdivide, with the sanction of lln^ TjIcU- loiiant-fbivernor In Council, any school dis- trict eslabllslieil by tills Act. It is flie duly of each section of the boitrd to have under its control and manngcnient the achooia of the section, the examination or licensing ot teachers, the selection of boolis, maps and globes : Provider' always, that in the case of Ijooks liaviiii^ refereiu.-e to reli^non ami morals, such seleetiou hy the Catholic.seetioii of the hoard shall be subject to the approval of the competent religious authorities. WoU, two yeara afterwards, on the 14th May, 1875, the Act was amended again, and the hon. gentleman will see how that was done : Within -'\ months aftiT (ho passing of this Act the Lienter,;i;,i ( ii'Vernor in Council shall a|ipoint, to form aiid 'nnslitute tinUloard of IvUicatioii for the province f Ma.nitolia, not ^'xceedin^' twenty-one jier- •soiis. tU' ;■■ of whom >hall be Protestants and nine Kimian I'-uholics, who shall hold otHce for tluee year.s, being, liowever, eli^jilile for reappointment, or if a lesser mnnber be apiiointed, the same lelative l)roportion of J'rotestants and t'atuolics shall be ob- Herved. and until siioii a]i|Kiiutment sliall take ]ilace, the menilM-rs of tlie present Board of Ivlncation shall continui' in oltice, and any vacancy occurrintf iu sueli council from anv cause, shall from time to time be tilled by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. The ' coimcil was to be composed of two committoes, one Protoslant and one Roman Catholic. Tlien the Legislative appropria- tion Avas to be divided between them : Thi' n'unb.'r()f s.icli eliildren iu the Protestant and Catholic districts respi'ctiv.'ly bein^ aj^gre^'ated as reganl each of said f.iitiis. Well, :Mr. Speaker, that syst(>m of education ! was' in force In 1871, modified iu 1873, and com|iU>lod in 187'). Tliivt wiis al'ter the Miinitoba Act liad been passed, and this legislation w;is enticted under that Act. In 388;{ Parliament passed wlitit is called the Dominion Lauds Act Section 2'.i of the Revised StatuU^s is as follows :— Seetio)is 11 and L'!t in every surveyed township throULcliout the extent of the Dominion lauds are liereliy set upart as an endowment for purposes (^f Pflueiition, nil'! shall be desi;,'nate(| school lands; and they are hrrelry witlidrawn fi'om the rnor In Couiu'l. Subsection 3 of section 25 says : .Vll moneys from time to iimi. realized from the f<,'de of schiMil lands shall be iinested in si'curities of ' Canada, to form a school fiuid, and the iutercMt ari- ing tlK'i'efrom, after deducting the t'ost of manage- | meiit. shall be paid annually to the (iovernment of the j pro\ iiiee or territory within which such lands are ' Mituateil.touurds the sujipoit (jf public schools therein ; and moneys so paid sh:dl be distributed for that pur- . |io~i- by the (iovernment of such (inn inee or territory j m such manlier as it deems expedient. The rjovei-iuuent which propositi! that law was tlie (!overiiiii(>nt of Sir .rolin A. ISlae- donald, of w'dil! T was a member. At tliat I time, 1883, the three Acts I have mentioned as giving the system of separate schools to Manitoba were iu force and were tlie laws of that province. We had there separate schools, and tlie common scliools or Protest- ant schools, were there estabUslied by law. Wo gave thos(> hinds, not for the benefit of one set of schools, but for the schools of the whole province. What happened uudei- these two Acts of 1890 V Was it that the separate schools vere to have no interest in those liindsV The interest received from tliose lauds was not to go to the separate schools, nor wiis it to go to the common schools alone. That was nat the tuteutlon of the (Tovern- ment or Parluimeut. I know that tlie tiovem- lueut would never have committed an injury on a large portion of the population of ^lauitoba by handing over the hiuds to only one section of the community. The rea- son wliy we did not give the capital to the province, but only the bitcrest, was because we feared that the people would e.vjiend that capitol when the province possessed ti small population, and when the wants of the larger population iu later diiys were felt, the money would have been expeudpd that should have gone to support the schoids of the province. And. theret'or(>, we kept the cajiital. and gave the interest for .school purposes. But let it be remeuibcn^d that the interest was not to lie given only to one section, but was to be devoted for the purposes of all the schools, tlie separjite schools as wi^ll as the common schools. The lion, evntlemtin stated thtit the (Joverumeut litis ^' ' tli(\v w(>re .judges, and thiM'efore that it wtt ,i judicial decision tliey were to give. I do not know whtit is the uieaning of that word in the mouth of some Miuistei's when stated verbally or iu writing ; but I know that it was a regular iJfactice with iiiembiu's of Sir .Tolin Mticdonald's (rov- enimeiit, when a (piostiou wtis put to them on any subject as to tlie decision of the Coun- cil rospociiug it. to .say tlmt they could not speak of it as they were judg(>s and were bound under their oath to be silent. The word judge is not limited to ti judge on the bench; but iu the case of iln^ (tovernment, were men who were judges in all matters tluit ciime before us. Xo doubt that is the hitention of hoii. gentlemen oppo.site. Dur- ing the twenty-livi> yt'tirs 1 was ti Minister of tile Crown that \\;is the mtiniKU' -.v'e tinswered tpiestious of thiit kind, not only in regard to the school question, btit iu regard to other im- piirtiint iiucstioiis. The lion, gentloman says tliiit the Ministers iir(> acting as judges, and they are retpiired to give a judicitil (l(^ision. Why? Rectiiise by the Order in Cmmcil, 120th December, 18!t'_', they hail decided to refer ii number of legal questions to the judges of the Suiireuie Court, 'i'he lion, gi'utlemtin admits tliat members of the (toverniuent may and should consult the Minister of .Iiistice, and lie has iisked several ipiestioiis in regard to the law in this reg.ird. I bolleve that the tidvice of the Minister of .lustice— I spetilc genenilly and not of this Minister of Justice only— would not lie so satisfactory to a province such as Manitoba, as would be an opinion given by the judges of the Supreme Court. That was no reason for sajing that because those judges were to be consulted, the decision should be in one or other direc- tion. When the opinion is received by tbe Minister of Justice, the political action on the part of the Government begins, and it is for them thou to decide whether the complaint made by the minority lias any substantial foinidation and whether. remedial measures should be applied or not. If it should be decided that subsection 3 of sec- tion 93 of the British North America Act applies to Manitoba, it gave another complex- ion to the case. It presented the case in a difi'eront way. and the Govornment would be oall(>d upon to decide wliether the system of education that has been given and ac- cepted by Manltoiia, by its own I-egislature in 1871, 1S73 and 1875. is such a system of education ms is provided for by the third subsection of section 03 of the British Narih America Act. I do not intend to detain tlie House longer, because I am aware that sev- eral lion, gontleinon intend to spwik on this question, and I do not wish to follow the bon. gentleman all through his very able speech. I trust the House will afford me a few min- utes to enable me to point out tlie sin- gularity in comparing tliis resolution of the hou. mend)er from 1,'Tslet (^Ir. Tarte), with the end of an article entitled " 'I'he Manitoba Public Seliool Law, by Dalton Mc- Carthy, Q.C., 3\I.r.," who, I suppose, is the hon. gentleman opposite. Mr. McCarthy. I sniti.ose so. Sir HECTOR LANGi:V;X. Comparing the resolution, as I said, witii.the end of tiiat article pulilished in the "Caiiadian Magazine," we find that the article states as follows :— Manitoba lias had but scant court,i'»y and hnt littU' cnnsidcrjition at thi' liiindis of tlie (idvcrunicut nf C.aii.ad;i. 1 Icr niih\ay li'^iwhitioii was vcl'icd no piT- sistcntly tliat \\vv pctipl',' wriv driven to tin? verge of reljellioii. The lion, gentlemnn stated that In liis address ' thus afternoon. ' Tlietie act^^, if unwise and liaisli, were at liast ■wittiin tlie hues of the f 'onstitutioa. Hut the attacks now launelic'd again.st iier e\ehisive liglit to manage her e taiien to aecoin- iilisli tliat end it shonld he held to htrict acconnt, or 'ailianient will lanientalily fail in itn dnty ; ;in(l tlip pretence that the Cahinet act« as a judiilal trib\iiial and not an political advisers (tf the Crown should nicMt with the cotiteini it and ctmdeni nation it invites at the hands of the icpresentatixes of the people. Now let me i-ead thi> resolution of the hon. member (Mr. Tarte), and we wiL ind a some- wliat wonderful sLinihirity betwer'i it and the extiraot from tliis artiole, written by the hon. member for Simcoe (Mr. McCartliy) : This House desires to ex(iress its l (question, and in iissmiung to he pos-essed of the judicial fnnction.s cirnflictiiig with their duty a.s constitutional advi.-irs of the (Jvown, wliii-h as- sunii;tion is wholly nnknown to the law, and, if now acipiicsced in. Would iie entir'-lv suli\ ersivu of Uie princii)le of nunisterial ics])onsibilitv. The resolution Is not only the same idea as the concluding words of the article, but it is couched in n<>arly the same terms, aad it appears to me tliat the iiioton would have been a gr-.it deal Uetter in the hands of the lion, gentleman (.Mr. McC.irthy) than in the hands of the lion, membi'r for L'IsIet (Mr. Tarte). One Avoiild tliiii'c ih-it before ni.aldng their ."sjiewhcs, said befo i; this ([luxstion came up, Ihey Imd iiiit ihcir heads together, and that one hon. member said to the other : Well, if you take my Lotion I will suppoa't it, and you can make your sp(M!ch. I do not say that such was done ; but it hioks a little ,like it. At all evenls, tlii> rasolution wouhl 'have been a gyi'a! deul betrer in the hands of the lion, member for Simcoe (Mr. Mc- Carthy), who has suiiport(>d it in such a strong speech. It is remark.ible liow the two hon. gentlemen liav nrriiiiged to make botli ends meet. The one is for separate seliools. and condemns the Government very slrongly be- cause they have not vi>tocHi the Bill as he thinks tlu>y sliouhl do. while tlii' hon. geiule- mnn ojipitsiti? (Mr. McCarihy) Is strongly against separate seliools ; but he liiids reasons for condemning the Guveniment and support- ing tlie latt resolution of the hon. member for L'l.slet (Mr. Tarte). That is somewliat strange. I suppose that tlio lirst part of the rasolutlon wsis intended for ■ lie bon. gentleman for I/Ishxt (.Mr. Tarte), and tlie last portion Intended for the hon. member for Simcoe CSlv. McCarthy). I tlianlc the Ilotise for liearing me, and I will resmno my seat to allow the (piratlou to be discussed by otlier hon. genllemen. OTTAWA Printed by S. E. Dawson Print«r to the (.^lueen's Most Kxccllent Majpstjr 18'.i;i