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FINANCES OF THE iSOBaXNZOXV. 
 
 BUDGET SPEECH DELIVERED BY 
 
 HON. A. W. McLELAN, Minister of Finance 
 
 In the House of Communs of Canada, TUESDAY, '30th UAKCH, 1886. 
 
 Mr. McLblan — Mr. Speaker, ia moving 
 that tho house resolve itself into a committee 
 of waj's and means, I desive, as has been cus- 
 tomaiy, to make some Rtatements respecting 
 the position of onr accounts. This duty has 
 for a number of years been discharged by one 
 who has made fiscal matters a life study, and 
 whose clear and able statements commanded 
 the admiration of the house and the conli-- 
 deuce of the country. I am sure that all in 
 this h'juse will join with me iu expressing 
 deep regret that the condition of Sir Leonard 
 Tilley'fi liealth has compelled his with- 
 drawal, at least for a time, from the more 
 active duties of public life, and I am sure 
 also that I but give exprcssioa to the feel- 
 ings of those around me when I utter the 
 wish that he may be restored to health and 
 may have many happy years of useful and 
 h'aorable life. In attempting this task, 
 v> ithout having had perhaps sutficient time 
 to become familiar with all the details of my 
 department, I should crave the indulgence of 
 the house, more especially when I look back 
 to 1867, and see that this position has been 
 from that time to the present always occu- 
 pied by <iistingHished and able men. Sir, in 
 looking back to that period over the admin- 
 istration of those eminent men — an unbroken 
 line of gallant knights— I am deeply im- 
 pressed with the changes that have taken 
 place in the country since that period, with 
 the contrast which the Dominion of Canada 
 presents to-day to the Dominion of 18G7. 
 Eighteen years in the history of any country 
 mark it with changes of progress and devel- 
 opment, or, perchance, of decay, but I ven- 
 ture to say that in no country in the world 
 are the evidences more r.trong and marked of 
 progressive development than in the Domin- 
 ion of Canada. In 1867, we were four prov- 
 inces, and wo spoke of tho country as a great 
 country, one of magnificent distances. We 
 had then Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia and 
 New Brunswick, covering an area of 3;i8,000 
 square miles, with a population of 3,331,000. 
 On the east we have added that most fertile 
 of all fertile islands, rriuce Edward, and wo 
 have taken our boundailes westwcrd and laid 
 them beside the waters of tho Pacific ocean. 
 In area we now embrace 3,438,000 square 
 miles. In territory we have increased more 
 than tenfold, and our population more than 
 50 per cent. But it is not in increased area, 
 it id not iu added numbers, that the change 
 is mot-t marked. It is in the condition of 
 the great body of the people. They have 
 learned more of each other in those eighteen 
 years, and liave strengthened their political, 
 their i orial, their commercial and industrial 
 
 ties. In 1867, the two provinces in tho east 
 were separated from the two in the west by 
 an impaijsable barrier. In winter, and for 
 nix months in the year, we were dependent 
 upon the United States for all intercourse 
 and oommunication between the two upper 
 and the two lower provinces. In the 
 west, on the admission of British Columbia 
 and the territories, the obstacles to inter, 
 course were greater even than the increased 
 distances, and f jr all communication and in- 
 tercourse we were dependent upon foieign 
 railways, foreign hotels and foreign convey- 
 ances. For fifteen or sixteen years we have 
 been paying tribute to a foreign but a friendly 
 power for all intercourse westward. To-day 
 the iron rail, leaving the waters of the Atlan- 
 tic, goofe westward and westward until it 
 touches the waters of the Pacific ocean, and 
 gives us an unbroken highway from the ex- 
 treme east to the extreme west ; so that we 
 shall from this time be able to pass to and 
 fro thereon without being reminded, as here- 
 tofore, by a foreign flag and a foreign custom 
 house tha*, we wen; dependent upon a foreign 
 people for our inteicourse. Tho year 1886 
 will be in all future Canadian history a red- 
 letter year, as being tho year in which we ob- 
 tained our national, our geographical inde- 
 pendence — the year in which a highway to 
 pass for pleasure or profit, in peace or iu 
 troHble, was opened to us throughout ouv 
 whole territory. Something more than thirty 
 years ago the public men of Nova Scotia 
 were buisy discussing the propriety of com- 
 mencing the construction of what is now a 
 portion of the Intercolonial railway, and a 
 link in this great highway, and the men who 
 were then discussing it, the men who were 
 mopt earnest in tho matter, said to us that 
 the importance and value of this road would 
 grow in tho public estimation of thf peojjlo 
 of Nova Scotia, and in the estimiatiou of the 
 people of all the provinces, that it would be 
 commenced and would go westward, until it 
 would eventually reach the waters of the I'a- 
 cift»-ocean ; and we were told that many of 
 those who, were taking part, in the discussion 
 would live to hear the scream of tlie locomo- 
 tive iu the R ,cky mountains. Sir, that pre- 
 diction hc-s been realized, and, if all, ov if 
 even in part tho other predictions respecting 
 the great value and importance of this work, 
 in binding together the several provinces, in 
 strengthening and maintaining British inter- 
 ests upon this continent, and developing the 
 great resources of this country, and drawing 
 ti> us a share of tho trade of the milliouB of 
 people who i.warm the Islands and the coun- 
 tries lying b.'yond our western terminus, are 
 
 .iH- 
 
 Jrfu 
 
realizod, then the mon who grappled with 
 and caiitd out thiH mighty undirtaking will 
 IjHregaidtd as benefactors of thio country, 
 and will receivo tho renpect and gratitude of 
 all ti ue Canadians. And, Mr. Speaker, I 
 may add that our richt hon. leader, who has 
 labored so diligently and ho tiuccessfully in 
 carrying forward thin work, who, wliilo not 
 unmindful of the tntiTeHt.H of tbo older prov- 
 inces, never li 8t sight of this undertaking, 
 although often asBaiifd by the oppotiitiou of 
 gentlemen oi)ponite, anil soinetimus met by 
 the fears and doubts of his fiieiidc, yet never 
 loyt rtight of *'-!'« work, but labored faithfully, 
 aealouwlv and intelligently to complete it, 
 and bind together a/ul make one people all 
 who dwell beneath th.3 Batish flag on this 
 continent, and htrengtheu and maintain 
 British institutions— it those pr* diction.? shall 
 be in any part realized, ho will have the 
 highest reward tliat 'an come to the greatest 
 sUte.iman, the satisfaction of kriowing, of 
 believing, of seeing that he has wiouifh' a 
 great advantage for hi.s country. Sir, 1 be- 
 lieve tnat those predictions will be largely 
 realized, and that a great future lies l)eiore 
 u,-j, But 1 must not detain the house to 
 epeak of that future. I was contrasting for 
 a moment, iu passing, the past with the 
 present, the condition of things in 1807 with 
 the condition iu 1886. And, sir, it is not 
 alone, in the increased area nor in the im- 
 proved means of inter-coramtuiication which 
 we now have, but tho change is most marked 
 in the great improvement in tho coi;ditii..u of 
 the vast body of tho peo()le. Measured by 
 every s'anihiid that tests tho condition of a 
 people, we see that they have made 
 great progrCfS, by the accumulaiiuns 
 in our savings and our commercial 
 buukt, by the traffic upon our railways 
 and upon our waters, by th'! growth of our 
 towns and cities, by the private and public 
 buildings which adorn them, by tho comfort- 
 able Homes of our ruial popidatiou, by 
 churches and schools, and all the varied avo- 
 cutions in which men are engogcd, and whicdi 
 mark the growth, the progress, the weallli 
 and happiness of the people. Sir, iu speaking 
 thus and expressing gratification at the 
 growth of theDominion,Idonot forget my ex- 
 pel ience in the past with some minds narrow 
 by nature or with prejudice, who will say 
 that it is, perba[<s, not in good taste in a 
 Nova Scotian, nut in good taste in me, par- 
 ticularly, to express this graiilicatiou. Sir, 
 I desire a wo.d of percona' explaijation, and 
 I am moved the more thereto by the fact that 
 the leader of tlie Oi'pofcition, when nothing 
 else could he found to occupy his gieat mind 
 at the opining if this session, dirtctcd my 
 attenliuu, when 1 should occnpy this place 
 to-day, to the pcsition i occupied in 1807. 
 It is true that Nova Scotia was opposed to 
 Confederation, hut mainly o-wing to the finan- 
 cial terms then proposed ; it is true that I 
 
 joined in that opposition, but when the act 
 was passed I took the earliest opportunity to 
 define my position as a candidate for this 
 house. Addressing a large public meeting of 
 my constituents, I said — and, if I remember 
 rightly, my rema. ks were reported by the 
 gentleman who occupies tho chief place at the 
 table of this house— I said : The act of Con- 
 federation has become law, it i,i tho act of the 
 British Empire, and no power that wo pos- 
 sess can void it. We shall live under it, wo 
 shall test its working, and if I am elected as 
 your representative in the House of Com- 
 mons, belioviug that the term.s on which wo 
 are admitted are unfair to Nova Scotia and 
 may be amended, I shall labor to have them 
 amended, and I shall join those who will en- 
 deavor to promote the best interests of the 
 whole country at large. In substance, that was 
 mv pledge to tho people of my county ; and 
 when I came here my utterances were in that 
 direction, to have a modification of the terms 
 on which Nova Scoti i was admitted. And, 
 sir, to-day I stand with that pledge redeemed, 
 with having aided to .secure better terms tor 
 my livtle province down by the sea, and in 
 having joined with thoto who were giving, 
 and have given, their 1 jst energies to tho 
 deveIo|jment and progress of the whole coun- 
 try. And with that pledge r<(ieemed, 1 feel 
 as free to express proud satisfaction at the 
 progress ot our common country as the most 
 atdent Confederate of 1867. Now, Mr. 
 Siieaker, having detained the house with this 
 introduction, I desire to invite attention to 
 the public aci^ounts which were 6ul)mitted to 
 the house some days ago, and which, I have 
 no ddubt, have been examined by hon. gentle- 
 men ]irisent. Permit me, sir, to direct atten- 
 tion to several points which seem to call for 
 conKideratiiin. And first, dealing with the 
 receipts of 1885, it will be noted that the late 
 Finance mitdster, in his budget speech, placed 
 the revenue likely to be received at $33,000,- 
 000, including in that amount the sum of 
 S500,000 estimated receipts from the sal.- of 
 Dominion land**. The actual amount recuived 
 from 1 he several sources came to $33, 100. U 18, 
 of which the amount from Dominion lands 
 wan $3'J3,G18, the excess over the estimato 
 being :fl00, 018. Many of the items in tho 
 receipts and in the estimates approach each 
 other very closely. For instanct.-, the post 
 ollice revenue was estimated to produce 
 $1,900,000 ; it did produce $1,841,382. The 
 revenue from public works, including rail- 
 ways and canals, was estimated at $3,000,- 
 OUO ; it did produce *3, 06,5, 000. The inter- 
 est on investments wus estimated to produce 
 $1,900,000; it did produce $1,997,000. 
 Mi^clllaneou8 revenues brought in altogether 
 $60.5,838, against an estimated amount of 
 $800,000 Dominion lands produced 
 but $393,618. The interruption of the 
 receipts hum that source was caused by tho 
 troubles iu tho Northwest, on account of 
 
which the receipts ftom that source alnuoft 
 ceased, and reduced the amouCl^ below the 
 eHtimated receipts of $500,000. Thea there 
 are tlie receipts from ciistoms and excise 
 When Sir Leonard Tilley made his budget 
 speech about this time last year, he estim- 
 ated the customs to produce $10,000,000 ; 
 .they did produce $18,935,426, being $(i4,574 
 short of the estimate. If hon. fcfu'lemeu 
 have referred to the Trade and Navigation re- 
 turns they will have seuu that the greater 
 portions of the goods entered for duty in the 
 Domiiiion during the past year were fully up 
 to the estimates. The main falling ofi' was 
 In articles that are being manufactured in 
 the country, manufactures of ci'tton and 
 woollen floods, of iron and steel and the pro- 
 ducts thereof. The duties upon those arti- 
 cles was $2,167,li29 34 in 1881, and the 
 amount realized in 1885, $1,600,510. As 
 Lon. gentlemen will see, there was a large 
 falling off in the receipts from those sources 
 in consequence cf our manufactories being 
 able to furnish a larger portion of the goods 
 required for the wants of the people. The 
 receipts from customs will, no doubt, con- 
 stitute the items which will receive most at- 
 tentit)n from hon gentlemen opposite and 
 all who are opposed to the Natienal Policy, 
 and who desire to preach and put in practice 
 the doctrine of free trade so far as is possible 
 in this country. I may, therefore, bo per- 
 mitted to make a few observations on this 
 subject before passing to other matters. The 
 sum of $18,935,426 from customs last year 
 was coliected on a gro.ss importation for 
 home consumption of $102,710,109, being 
 18 43 per cent, under the Nationul Policy 
 tarifl'. Comparison has been made on many 
 occasions between the taxation of the Domin- 
 ion and the taxation of the United States, 
 and the results of the tariff in the Dominion 
 and the results in the United States. It is, 
 however, shown from the returns of 1885 in 
 the United States that the percentaaje of tiix- 
 ation upon imports into that country was 
 31.45, or over 13 per cent, more than the 
 charge under our National Policy. It is not 
 
 I i;maller is the percentage, and you have lu 
 ] look at ttie imports and com(iare those of 
 ,1878 with, those of 1885, to reach a fair com- 
 I parisou of the amounts of taxation imposed 
 I by the respective tarilFs. In 1678, it will be 
 remembered, breadstulfs were imported free 
 into the Dominion, and all U>U paused 
 through any part of the Dominion, by Grand 
 Trunk railway or otherwise, to the seaboard, 
 for shipment abroad, was called an import- 
 ation for home consumption. In tiiat year 
 the amount of imports of breadstuffs was 
 $13,452,400 — in other words, 14>( per cent, 
 of the whole imports of that year was in 
 breadstjtfs, not in necessary imports, not in 
 compulsory importations for the c;»nsump- 
 tion of the people, but a large portion on the 
 way to the seaboard for shipment to other 
 countries ; and yet, being free, they were 
 called importations for home consumption, 
 although they only passed through the coun- 
 try. This amount, added to the necessary 
 importations we were compelled to make, in- 
 creased the amount given as import- 
 ations ; and when the duty in that year 
 is taken over the whole amount thus in- 
 creased, it shows to the advantage ot the 
 taritT of 1.S78. Take out that am junt, over 
 thirteen millions on bieidstuffs, fro', and you 
 have $77,747,117 left as the necc-sary im- 
 portations of that year, upon which $12,7ii5,- 
 (593 was coll'^cted, which brings tiie percent- 
 age up to 10.45 per cent., less than 2 per 
 cent, of th'i taxation of 188? If you look 
 at the imports of 1885 ac the collections 
 thereon yini will find that the lacrease of tax- 
 ation is not on Hio necessaries of life, not on 
 what is consumed by the poor man, and not 
 what will justify hon. gentlemen opposite in 
 saying that the National policy tari if is grind- 
 ing down the poor man and driving him out 
 of the country. It is not necessary, Mr. 
 Speaker, that I should detain the hi.us'j with 
 a very close analysis of the impoitations of 
 1885, but I iv.py take up two or thrre special 
 lines and show that the increase of revenue 
 and the increase of taxation do not result 
 largely from impositions on the laboring 
 
 with the tariff of 1878 that we shall bo cri- 
 ticized. The tariff of 1878 is entered in our 
 books as showmg a taxation of 14 03 per 
 cent, upon a total importation of $91, 199,- 
 577, and that shows a difference of over 4 
 per cent, in the result of the working of the 
 tariff as at present arranged and the tariff 
 which hon. gentlemen applied in 1878. 
 Now, even 4 per cent, of a difference of tax- 
 ation is, perhaps, a considerable one; but it 
 would not w.'irraut all tho condeinaation 
 whi:h hon. gentlemen have been pleased to 
 shower upon it, but it is not. The customs 
 receipts for 1878 were $12,795,693, being, as 
 I have taid, I4 03 upon an importation of 
 $91,199,577. The larger you have the im- 
 portations for a given sum received the 
 
 so much with the United States tariff', but'^lasses. In 1885 we collected on silk^ and 
 
 velvets $1,020,057. In 1878 we oiilv col- 
 lected .$539,981, an increase of $4,8n,G76 ; 
 and t'. "it leaves as much silk and velvt for 
 the poor man in 1835 as was imported in 
 1878. Om s()irits and wines we had an in- 
 crease of $042,100 ; on jewellery, gold and 
 silverware $1.">0,728. Now here are three 
 classes of goods which are cousiilered as lux- 
 uries on which we collected an excess over 
 the amount collected for 1878 of $1,279,504. 
 Now if you take this from the gross revenuo 
 received from custoav-, it leaves $17,055,924, 
 which would make a fairer comparison with 
 |l he receipts from the importations of 1873, 
 and when you do that, sir, you bring the tax. 
 ation down to less than three-quarters of 1 
 percent, over the taxation of 1878. And I 
 
4 
 
 am sure, sir, that if the inveetigatioa were 
 pursued furtlicr wo whwuld be ablo to Hhow, 
 having no diitieH oa tea or coffee and many 
 other tliingH which are largely couHumed by 
 the poor man, that tho tariff under which we 
 are operating, and under which we collected 
 this revenue, b( ars much more lightly upon 
 the workiuK claesfH and upou the middle 
 Classen than did the tarifl ol 1878. Hon. 
 gentlemen have been wont to exclaim against 
 tho tariff under which wo are operating at 
 present because it is called a protective tariff. 
 But if we take the free trade tariff of Eng- 
 land wo find tlittt it is more grinding and bears 
 more hardly upon the poor man and tho 
 laboring clauses than it does upon the rich. 
 Of the $96,000,000 that are collected for cus- 
 toms duties in Kngland, a celebrated statistic- 
 ian, Mulhall, places the proportion paid by 
 the laboring classoH at |5(;,00u,000, the rich 
 f6,0U0,000, and tho middle cla.«SKS (534,000,- 
 000 ; or, in other words, there is paid by the 
 laboring classes more than .'56 per cent, of the 
 whole collection of customs revenue in that 
 free trade country of England. So wa see that a 
 free trade tariff is not necessarily light upon 
 the middle classes or the poor man. And, 
 8ir, 1 say that if I were to pursue the analysis 
 of our importations, 1 would be able to show 
 that our tariff' is especially framed to bear 
 lightly in its taxation upon the poorer classes ; 
 and, moreover, sir, wo know that tho result 
 of the working of that tariff has been to give 
 the poor man and the laboring man employ, 
 meut. It has given him that employment 
 which keeps poverty almost out ot the coun- 
 try, and that i>> tUe object that any tariff, th8+ 
 any Government framing atarill, I'loald have 
 in view, to give employment to th -i people at 
 large and to bear lightly upon the laboring 
 classes of the community, and the result of 
 this tariff has been, sir, that wo have been 
 giving employment to tho laboring classes, 
 and we are able, from the condition of our 
 manufactures, to feed and clothe the work- 
 ingman for workday and holiday, and t^fput 
 in his hands the implement*, by wbich he 
 earns his living at lower prices 
 than they were imported into the 
 country under the tariff of 1878. 
 The receipts from excise have been $6,449,- 
 101 as against an estimate of $5,500,000. The 
 large increase in the excise is to be accounted 
 for by the faiit that distillers and <;>ther8 foie- 
 Btallod the changes that were made in the 
 revenue and entered large quantities of their 
 goods. The receipts from post office, rail- 
 ways and canale, interest on assets, and mis- 
 cellaneous sources, including Dominion 
 lands, amounted to $7,805,089, showing a 
 marked and gratifying increase since 1879 
 amounting to 88.3 per cent., or $3,565,321. 
 It will be noticed that I have included in that 
 amount the receipts from Dominion lands. 
 During the five years that hou. gentlemen 
 opposite held the Goverament,* all the re- 
 
 ceipts from Dominion lands wore taken and 
 counted as part of the revenue, and my hon. 
 friend and predecessor, Sir Leonard Tilley, 
 followed the same course up to 1881, placintr 
 them US part of the receipts from consolidated 
 revenue account. From 18H1 to 1885, Sir 
 Leonard seems to have placed them to capi- 
 tal account. I suppose the reason will be 
 found iu tho fact that ho had a large surplus 
 each year during that period, and it was im- 
 material whether they should be placed to 
 capital or to revenue account. But, sir, I 
 think tho house will agree with me that as 
 wo have made large expenditures in the 
 Northwest in opening up tho country by rail- 
 way, and incurred a large debt for that pur- 
 pose, as we have made Inrge expenditures on 
 surveys in tho Northwest, for Mounted police, 
 and in Indian treatits, incurring large liabili- 
 ties, it is but right that whatever rev- 
 eniU! or return we should have from 
 the lands of the Northwest should 
 be placed to revenue account to meet 
 the interest that we are paying on the expen- 
 tUtnres, and the sinking fund that wo ate pro- 
 viding in order to pay off' that ind.'btedness. 
 I think the house will agree with me that wo 
 should do that in.stead of increasiag the tax- 
 ation of the country. Should we receive 
 from the lards in tho North went a larger 
 sum in any one year than would nitet the 
 sinking fund which we have to provide to- 
 wards the payment of our mdebtedness there, 
 and tho interest upon our indebtedness for 
 that oxpondituro, then it might very well bo 
 plaiced to capital account, but until that 
 point is reached, I think we are juiUifled in 
 placing it, as hon. gentlemen opposite did, 
 aud as Sir Leonard Tilley did till 1881, to 
 revenue account, and I have therefore pro- 
 posed for tho present and future to deal with 
 it in that manner, calling it and using it as 
 so much revenue, instead of increasing the 
 taxation in order to meet our wants. The 
 amount received from Dominion lands, as I 
 have already stated, during the year 1885, 
 was $393,618, making the total receipts for 
 the year on consolidated revenue account, 
 $33,190,619, against which there is tho year's 
 expenditure. This is of two classes, the or- 
 dinary expenditure, contemplated by Sir 
 Leonard Tilley when he made his estimates, 
 aud tho exceptional expenditure, caused by 
 the unfortunate outbreak in tho Northwest. 
 Wu may, 1 think, consider them separately. 
 Dealing first with the expenditure in the 
 Northwest, caused by the outbreak, I find 
 / that there was paid through the Department 
 of Militia and Defence the sum of 
 $1,697,851, and by the Comptroller 
 of Mounted police $93,950 There 
 has also been an increase in the Indian 
 expenditure, resulting from the outbreak of 
 $82,375. The two first iteais together 
 amount to $1,791,831. This sum, deducted 
 from the grosB expenditure, as given in the 
 
ft 
 
 public nccunnts, of $35,037,060, ieavfs the 
 sum of $33, 345, '253, an a^aiuHt tlio renJijitn (;f 
 $33, 190,6ly, Khowing. Iiy tttkinjf out only ihc 
 expenditure on tbo Mounted luilioo and on 
 militia iiiul dnfcnr;ii, a '!ili( ;t of $J4,03t ; but, 
 if you take out the mlditional Indian expendi- 
 ture of $82,375, you havo a fim.iU surpluH of 
 $27,741. I may say hero tlmt tho additional 
 receipis from e.xci.se hav# reduced the umouiit 
 of tiie defioiemy for the year 18.S5, and 
 have increaHed tlio deficit whicli we 
 autioiputo lor 1886. Takiuuc the receipth, 
 and crediting them all to thn year 1885, it 
 will heseenthivt on the ordinary expendituie, 
 exuluhive of tho expenditure caused by tl>e 
 trouble iri ilie Northwent, tho aocoutitH about 
 balance each other; but as it will be si-en 
 later, that we anticipate a deficit, exclusive 
 of the expenditure in th' Northwest, for the 
 year 1.S8G, I thiiik it would be but fair that 
 the over expenditure for 1880 hIiouM bo divid- 
 ed between tho two years, 1885 and 1830, be- 
 cauHo a portion of the excise revenue duo in 
 1883 was anticipated and (liiivl in ]8S.">. The 
 expenditure, it will be 8een by the accoiiiiiH 
 submitted, diifora in xonie reHpectH from the 
 estimates Sir Leonard Tilley made Tlie 
 charges of management woie increased i$(53,- 
 518; the sinking fiinil, $365,410; the 
 premium on discount and exchange, $108.- 
 988; public works, $77,848; and mjccel- 
 laneous, .IJiVO, 109. On other items there h;w 
 been a decrease — On civil government, .f37,- 
 180; on leRJKiation, iiS33,345; o/i cen^ris, 
 $:i4,94l ; ou railway.s and canals, $48,073 ; 
 on mail Pul)Hidiep, $125, 194 ; and on Liquor 
 License act, $57, 770. Tho t^rst item of over 
 expenditure 1 may refer to is the charges of 
 management, of which tho chief part arises 
 from tho commutation of the stamp duty on 
 the 3 J per cent, h^an of 1884. The diflorence 
 in tbo sinking fund is made up of tw^o items 
 — a half year's sinking fund investment in 
 the Consolidated Canadian 5 per cent loan, 
 which was not estimated tor on account of its 
 fallmgduoon tho 1st of .fanuary, 1885, aud 
 a half year's sinking fund investment on the 
 Dominion loau of 1884, which was not float- 
 ed when the estimates were made ui). I sup- 
 pose 8ir Leonard Tilley intended to take up 
 the 5 per cent, loan altogether, and rcis.sue 
 witliout a sinking fund. As tho hou-jo is 
 aware, he converted that into a 4 per cent. 
 loan, leaving the sinking fund. The premium 
 on discount and exchange arises almost • n- 
 iirely from ti e discount on tho gold we 
 brought to the couutiy in connection with 
 the loan contiao Ltd iii 1885. On ocean and 
 riyer service there in an iucu-ase of $49,276, 
 caused by over expenditure on t!iO mainten- 
 ance and repairs of i-ieameri, and tho outfit 
 of a nesT steamer. On Indians ih", increased 
 expenditure of $82,375 was cause<l by tiie 
 Northwest i roubles Oh public work* there 
 is an increase .of $77,845, which was expujjid- 
 (4 PO worlfs i;;3Judtd in suppJeiHf.otary V9t«;. 
 
 The under expenditures were as I have 
 Tiamed. It may be, Mr. Speaker, nnd I f^ave 
 no doubt it i«, to some hou memhers dm ttiis 
 side of the house, a disappcjiiitmntit that the 
 public accounts for the year have not, as in 
 past years, shown that lari^e surplus which 
 Sir liCnnard Tilley was able, on a number of 
 successive cccnKions, to announce to tho 
 house. It sliould tie borne in mind tliat 
 svhcn the tariff was fianicd Jinu. gentlemen 
 opposite said tons; " You will not gi't any 
 revenue; you are expectiui; t i manufitcture 
 in the country unde"- your protective tariff 
 the goods \ on now impo'-t." That was our 
 expe(;tation ; but wo knew at the same time 
 that the in';rea^cd activity given to trade 
 would for ni.itiy years necessitati our irni)ort- 
 ing more largely than our manufacturers 
 would be able to supjily, that our depend, 
 once for revenue would eventually have to be 
 lilaccd on articles of luxury, ov on articles 
 that were not grown or proi!uced in the 
 country, and would nut be maniifuctur.xl for a 
 ntimber of years, nnd that tln.so wriidd have 
 to bo held in reserve for revenue Our nianii- 
 factures, hr)we\'er, increased more r^ipidly 
 than we anticipated ; the emi)loyment of our 
 people in factories has be'>n larser than ex- 
 pected a^ tho out.-et, and this is, periiaps, in 
 some measure due to lion. gf'utlemea op- 
 posite They, on everv occasion, put iieforo 
 the country statements of tho enormous re- 
 ceipts, dividends and iirofits manutacturera 
 were receiving, and theri-by in- 
 duced p'Thaps, a larger number to 
 enter manufacturin:^ ilian (be cucumstauct.8 
 of tho country deman led for the 
 time, and, therefore, sir, frfun the more rapid 
 increase of manufacture.-; than Sir Leonard 
 Tilley counted upon, the revenue has not 
 come up quite to his anticipations. I admit, 
 sir, under ordiuaiy circumstances it is clo- 
 sir.able that the receipts ami expenditure 
 Phuuld be equalized, but in ado.)ting anew 
 policy there is much difficulty in so regulat- 
 ing it and co estimating for rho increase of 
 hom>' production that it is ditlicult to make 
 that harmony between receipts aiid o.Kpendi- 
 ttire which is always desirable. In the con- 
 dition of our country, when we were requn-. 
 ing large crnonditurcs ou public works, thera 
 was no loss in having a prettv large surplus 
 and devoting it to the completion of public 
 works »nd tho improvement of tbo country, 
 as v-as done rturinc; tho time we had these 
 surpluses. They prevented the incr-ase of 
 our indebtedness by just so much rirI tended 
 to improve the credit of the cumiry abroad, 
 enal)liug us to receive money on better terms 
 than if wo had not been in tho receipt of 
 tliem. The fttct that we have been increas- 
 ing largely our manufaci;ures is ^^riown in the 
 decreased imports of the articles in the manu- 
 facture of which we are mainly engaged. 
 Tho import'itlon cf cctton and wo >lleti goods 
 and cf ^he manufactures of iron and steel in 
 
 / 
 
6 
 
 1878 Binonnted to $22, 3*57, 000. When we 
 Btarted tLt; Nutioual I'olicy uuil by protection 
 jHive tiiiployuit-nt to our own pcofjlo in lariiir 
 Bumburs, and whon wi; woro not, in a ponition 
 to produce HuflicientgoodH, tbodomaud called 
 for, in 1882, $:i.'J,588,158. In 1884, whou 
 ow nianufacturert had iucrf^awed, tho importti- 
 tiouH fell to $2rt,2f)0,'j55, and in 1885 thoy 
 dropped to $22,369, 720, or reachi'd the point 
 at vviuch they Htood in 1878. There Ih, per- 
 haps, not a ginilenian on either side of the 
 bouHfj who will c(;ijtend that the peoj)lo have 
 not i)(\eu able to purchn-te more i.cothon 
 than they could in 1878; tliero is not one 
 who will contend that more goodH have not 
 been conhumtd in the country than in 1878. 
 The ciuiHe of the decline is wiiolly due to the 
 inoreaKed output of our manufactures. This 
 is evident in th*' importation of raw material. 
 The i 01 portfttion of raw cotton from 1871 to 
 1878, tiveyt'tti's, aggregated 25,641,000 lbs. 
 From 1881 to 1885 it ran up to 104,f;28,000 
 lbs , or more tiian quadruple that of tho lirKt 
 period In the fiome period the importation 
 of wool increased by 15,139,124 IKs., and tho 
 exports decreai'ed 6,027,503 lbs., or a differ- 
 ence, compi'.iium the two periods, of 22,066,- 
 783 ll)». for manufacturing. In 1885, th(! 
 last year, the vliole export of wool was only 
 $196,178, showiuK that wo are manufacturing 
 almost all the wool production ov the coun- 
 try., and are iiu porting very much more of 
 some particular grades that are required. Wo 
 with respect to every article, the employment 
 of raw material has largely increased. Take 
 the article of pi^; iron Its importation hab 
 inort than doubled, in additiim to the largo 
 quantity being manufactured in the country. 
 Having referred to some of those minor 
 items I may be peimitted to deal with iJomo 
 of the iar^'cr ItemH of the accounts of 1885. 
 Hon. gei.'llemen have noticed that the largest 
 item in the accounts is that for iiiteiest. Tho 
 charge I'oi- interest and management footh up 
 $9,652. 123, and deducing from this the in- 
 terest we have received up(^n our assets (-f 
 SI, 997, 031, there is a net ehitrge for interest 
 of $7,655,089. Now this U & prett> large 
 amount, and it requires us t(j go bacic and see 
 what, increase we have made to thi,s since 
 18ti7. In 1867 t)ie charge for interest and 
 mii'mg' ment was $4,787,080, and tho re- 
 ceipts from assets were $126,419, leaving a 
 not charge for interest in 1867 of $4,660,661. 
 The net increase from 1867 to 1885 is 
 $2,944,428. Now, it may be .said, looking 
 at ail we have undertaken and accom- 
 plished, and all that w.as required 
 to supt)ort our undertakings, we have 
 only increased our expenditure under 
 this head by $2,294,428 over the 
 charge for 1867, and it will be remembered 
 that we had to beur the charge in 18G7, when 
 we were only four provinces, with a popula- 
 tion of 3,331,000. Now, when we embrace 
 the whole Doniiuiou, i: .jrj, t'ne Atlantic to the 
 
 Paciflc, and have made large exponditureB to 
 develop this couatry, it is easily seen that, 
 without this, wo could not have Hcci>mplish- 
 ed wliat we did. It required lab':)r and money 
 to (iig canals and improve the navigation of 
 rivers and lakes , it required large expendi- 
 ture of money to build wharves and piers, to 
 erect harbors of refuge along our ( oasts and 
 to dot our coasts and lakes with lighthouses 
 to facilitate navigaiion and c«nnet:i us with 
 the commerce of the world. It required 
 money to construct railways. Without it we 
 could not have cut down hills, filled up val- 
 leys and spanned rivers ; we could not have 
 laid the iron rail from city to city, from town 
 to town, as we have done all over the Dom- 
 inion Wo could not have sent the iron 
 horse over tho broad prairi* nor cut a path- 
 way through the liockios, for him to take the 
 traveller down through the pleasant valleys 
 and into the beautiful clime of Kritish Col- 
 umbia, ifthehou. niember for 'Vest Durham 
 (Mr. Blake) will allow me to apply tho term 
 beautiful to that province. We have done 
 all this ; but to do it all it was necessary that 
 there should lie large expenditure and that 
 our indebtedness slionid bo increased, and the 
 result is that wo paid, to tho 30th June, 1885, 
 $2,994,i28 more than we paid in 1867. But 
 1 want itic house to bear in mind that the 
 population in 1867 was 3,331,000 ; that the 
 total interest paid in 1867 waa $4,660,661, 
 after derluidiug the iaterest received on 
 assets That makes a per capita charge on 
 tlie population of $1 39 9-10 per bend. In 
 1885 we paid $7,665,089 on a population 
 which I should be disposed to estimate at 
 4,800,000 but f presume the hon. gentleman 
 will question that, and 1 shal' take off 100,000 
 to meet his views, in order that there ir,iy bo 
 no discu.shion upon this point ; and on a 
 populaiion of 4,700,000 we paid $1.63 in 
 18S5, making a diflerenco in interest paid iu 
 1885 and that paid in 1867 of only 23 1-10 
 cents per head of the population, and lam 
 sure, when we look at all that has been 
 undertaken and accomplished, and when we 
 look at the coniiiliou of the people, those of 
 us who remember 1S6S and those of us who 
 know anything of the condition of the people 
 at proaeui, will say that they are bettor able 
 to pay a taxation lor interest of $1.63 per 
 head now than they were to pay $1.39 m 
 1867. I am disposed to pursue this a little 
 further. A speech was delivered by the hon. 
 the leader of the Opposition, a celebrated 
 speech, a speech which attracted the atten- 
 tion of the whole Dominion, and indeed the 
 attention of other countries — a speech which 
 ni:iy be considered so important that the 
 greatest care should have been taken in his 
 utterances. The hon. gentleman on tt .t 
 occasion stated that we liad increaisd the 
 burden of interest and of indebtedness be- 
 yond the wildest conjecture ot 1878 or 1882. 
 I think it necessary to pursue this matter a 
 
8 
 
 h 
 d 
 
 
 
 1. 
 e 
 n 
 1- 
 n 
 h- 
 le 
 
 V8 
 
 littl'i fmtl.er, and seo whetlior wo aro nmon. 
 able to tlio < iiarge of having imrtiaRcd the 
 bunion of interebt Hiacti 1878. VVbcii tlio 
 hou >{«ntleijiau aHSumotl oflice i;i 1873 tin- 
 (!hai>ri) Jor iMttrtjHt in tlie fin.iiicial yeir 
 1673-74 Wrts $5, UU,577. Whon they loft 
 office, live yt'ftiB aftm-, the »;1 argo of interest 
 in thu year 1878-79 was $(;,(J87,704, itn in- 
 orta-o of §1,52(5, '217, or an averam) increasu 
 per yrar of $305,2 14. In tho fiMaurlal year 
 ^uditiu; Juno 30th, 1885, tho m-t cljaijiio of 
 interest waH $7,G35,089. Take from thin tho 
 iuiere-if upon tljo public debt in tho year 
 ■wlieu they left oliiee, $6,687,704, and wo 
 hfivo $'Ji;7,2J5 BH tho net increase in aovcn 
 years, or an average increono of $127,182 a 
 year, as against $305,244 duriuK tho j)erio<l 
 that thewo hon. (.(outlemou held ollice, I do 
 not think that, if tho hon. member for West 
 Durlium (Mr iJlako) had looked attheli'.'iires 
 and hud aeon that when ids friend-^ were in 
 office and he himself waa aidiuK thom, 
 the rate of iucreaBe had been 238 j)er cent, 
 faster than .^ was froin 1878 to 1835, he 
 would not have, upon so important an oc;;a- 
 siou, announced to tlie wcirld that we were 
 iucroatiing th.u burdens of interest beyond the 
 wildest imagination of 1873. But let mo 
 treat tins in another way: In 1878-79 tho 
 interest per liead of the population, taking it 
 .at 4,125,300, waflfl.OGiJ ; in 1885, on a po- 
 pulation of 4,700,000, it is $1.03 per head of 
 the poiiuliuion, or actually 3J cents per head 
 less iu 1885 than it was in ^878, when 
 those hon. gentlemen left office. An«i yet 
 the leader of tlio Opposition announcew that 
 we are increasing the burdens of the popula- 
 tion beyond the wildest imagination of any 
 man in 1878 I do not say tho amount of 
 our indebtedness is less than it was iu 1878- 
 7&. Oh no. [Jut I nay that tho credit of tiie 
 country has been so improved l)y wise legis- 
 lation, by wise administration and by tho 
 systematic and proper expendituro of tho 
 money that has been borrowed, that we have 
 reduced the rates at which capital iias bein 
 procured. Capital demands from the bor- 
 rower that tho security shall be tjood ; c:ipital 
 demands that the purpose to which the money 
 in to ba applied shall tend to the improve- 
 ment of the security, and that tho person 
 seeking the loan shall have, under ordinary 
 circumstances, tho wisdom properly to apoly 
 that money to improve the security. When 
 a country 80ok8 to borrow, capital exacts 
 the same conditions as from •^ priv.ito bor- 
 rower. Tho hon. member for .South Huron 
 ((.•Sir llichard Cirtwrighi) seemed to b;; fully 
 impressed with this on tho first occasion on 
 which he went to England to borrow money. 
 He then issued a prospactus which has be- 
 com.', I may say, famous in Canadian history. 
 He vlescribed the condition of the country as 
 iie received it from the hands of his prede- 
 -cessor-i. H;i enumerated in that prospectus 
 the successiv , the continued surpluses that 
 
 had been given each year from 1807 down- 
 wards. Ho enumerated tho various public 
 works which had been undertaken, which had 
 boon carried forward, an<l which would yield 
 a largo rovemio to thj country, and would 
 enable iho country to i)ay the money that 
 might be boriDwed for tho completion of 
 thono works. Tho hon. genthmun know the 
 valuH o having tho country well represented, 
 and he knew that it was well to make H fa- 
 vorable imf)rfcssion upon the minds of capl- 
 taliMts, -ind to prepare them for accepting the 
 lowest possible rates f)r their money. But 
 tho hon. gentleman, sir, contrary to th« 
 usual practice, contrary to whai 1 would 
 have expected on that occasion, did not tost 
 tho market, ho did not try how far the ad- 
 vantages that ho set forth in his prospectus 
 would affect the money market, and would 
 improve the rate at which ho might receive 
 it. Ho praised ttio country, spoke of thu 
 condition of tho country as being prosperous, 
 and ot tho purposes for which the money 
 would be applied as tending to increase tho 
 revenue atid make tho couatry better able to 
 |«y tho indehtednesH upon maturity, ilut, 
 as I said, ho did Hottest tho effect which 
 that might h-ive had tipon the public mind, 
 but named himself the price at which he 
 would bo willing to dispose of the b'lnds, 
 fixing the price at the very lowest possic''* 
 rate. Now, Mr. Speaker, what I meant to 
 say was that we h.tvo been able rio to ifhprove 
 thocondiiion of tho copntry and onr credit 
 abroad that wo have exchanged bonds bear- 
 ing a high rate of intere.'Jt for bonds bearing 
 lower rates of interest and at tho best prices, 
 and thus reduced tho taxation niicessary to be 
 placed upon the country in order to meet our 
 indel)tedneK.s. It is not that our indebted- 
 aess, on the whole, has diminished ; it is be- 
 cause we have been able, from the improved 
 credit of tho country, to makethirj ex'jhange, 
 and, notwithstanding that we have assumed 
 all tiio del)t-i of the various pn.vinces that 
 havo been admitted between 1873 and 1884, 
 atu()untinj< to $27,030,058. Add to this the 
 expenditure for the lutercolonial and canals 
 and other iieceH.''ary public works. Aud alter all 
 the taxation on the people of the c(/untrv. in 
 1885, is 3 J cents less per head than it was iu 
 1873. The hon gentleman will, perhaps, 
 claim that it was from the changed condition 
 of the money market that this was largely 
 duo. I find, from a statement published by 
 Mr. Gilfon, statistician to the English Board 
 of Trade, the rates of interest and the averag* 
 rates of discount charged by tho Bank of Eng- 
 land, in quinquennial periods, from 1875 to 
 1879, the lowest rate of discount was 2 per 
 cent, and the highest 5g. The average be- 
 tween those two years was 3 39-40 ; the aver- 
 age between 1880 and 1884 was 3 151-400, 
 and the lowest was about 2 per cent. The 
 h;§fhe!it in tho tive years was 5 13-16. In 
 January, 1885, it was 4 per cent., in liaroh, , 
 
8 
 
 3* ; in May, 3 ; on May 14, '-'J ; June, 2 - 
 November 12, .1 per ctiit. Tho hum. liji /itlel 
 man will Rfm by thin tbut fri.ni IftTf. uiiwards 
 tbo ratuH of discount in tiiu Diiuk < f Kiiglatid 
 rauK«d from 2 to 5 per cont, , ami ih viry lit- 
 tie loHS now. I hitvo heru a htntonunt pre- 
 pared i)y tiio tiuaiicial a«oiit« at Ihotimo that 
 Sir Leonard neK'»tialt(l liiH icjaii, uliowiiig (uat 
 the Caiutdiaii loan w.ih moi" approved, that 
 it coinrnaiidtMl a hiuhcr iat(! upon tho Kiig- 
 IIhU markotrt, ihiit tlioM) ol Victoria, '^iiuenH- 
 Iftiid, Now Zoiilaiid aud Soiitli Australia. The 
 iDiportiinc.^ (/!' wtatidinK well witli the money 
 markuts of England cannot bo ovorcsliniated. 
 It can only lio Hcen when we look at the re- 
 KullH. If w(i are able to go to the money 
 market of England and i.lace a loan at par, 
 if wo can boH a Innidied dollar bond for $10o 
 in cash, it in a j;;rcat deal Ijeltor for us than 
 if we could only beabli' to biinf; back $K8, 
 Ol' Honiething th-MeaboulH, ai the lion, gentle- 
 man opportito (lid in 1874. Now, to illus- 
 trate the importance of thin matter, I desire 
 to cull attention to the reHultri. Take the 
 unguaranteed loan of IHVt, which was placed 
 upon the inaiket by the hou. gentleman oj - 
 poaito, and the ungnaraniecd loan of ISTiJ 
 ThoHo two loauK aniouiiti d to §;il,ii:(;i,3:i3, 
 and the money that ho netted for them and 
 brought back to Canada wan only Jl^iSjUut,- 
 770, ..^uowing a lo8s of $;i,5G8, 50.!, or about 
 11.28 per cent. The loan ol IHH'), converted 
 to 4 peiiiceut , was for 5^31, 35(5, .505. a sum 
 just about enual to the two stiich the hon. 
 gentleman placed upon thi English market in 
 1874 and 187C. 'i'liis Hum rictted ^^OjOSOi- 
 eSl, bhowing a Iohb oi only §425, 'J44. or about 
 1.30 a.s agaiuHt 1 1.28 ou the hon. gentlemau'w 
 two loauH. The loans of 18 7 1- and tno loan of 
 1885 that Sir Leonard Tilley placed last sum- 
 mer were for tho samo amount, $19,4(;6,GGt;. 
 The loss on the former was §2, 208, 329, or 
 11.34 percent; on the latter, $14a,443, or 
 about 7-10 of 1 per cent. So the house will 
 be able to .^ee thai a great deal depenrls upon 
 keeping the credit of the country in the 
 money market well establinhed, that our 
 credit should stand high when we have occ.i • 
 siou to borrow money — but 1 hope that our 
 days of borrowing are pretty well over. Now, 
 I suppose reference will be made by lu.n. 
 gentlemen opposite to the condition of tl.^' 
 United States. In undertaking putdic works 
 we have to consider the amount of inti resi , 
 the present burden that they irunose u[)on u ■ 
 for interest, and wo have to look at the resu'" 
 of that work, and see what it will yield to 
 the country, how it will alfect the future, and 
 whether the expenditure will enable posterity 
 to meet the burden of payment. We have 
 improved the condition of the country, its 
 credit, and the rate of interest has not been 
 unduly burthensome. We believe that the 
 return from the public works we have under- 
 taken to carry to completion will enable our 
 posterity to pay the indebtedneaB without its 
 
 being unduly felt by them. T'ho United' 
 States in 1805 emerged from the greatest 
 civil war of history and wilh an euorinona 
 amount of indebtedni«.-(. Many a time dur- 
 ing that Htrui.;glo men were heard to sav that 
 the country would be ruined, am) they were 
 advised to stop in their expenditure and in 
 tiieir otVorts to maintain the union. 
 But they went on, they Buccee<l- 
 ed, and when they etu(;r«ed from 
 the war they hail a debtot ,?2,783,000,U(IO, all 
 at high rates of inteiest. 'I'liey had a depre- 
 ciated currency and theit billH were selling 
 that year at not more than 40 or 50 cental on 
 the dollar. But they had preserved tho 
 I nion : th<;y had a large quantity (f fertile 
 prairie in tho newer territf lie.s ; thcv had a 
 policy of protection for home iiidustrieH which 
 gave employment at wage.i wliic^h drew from 
 all parts of the world population to them. lo 
 fouiteen years after thoy emerge'd from that 
 struggle their paper iuont;y was at par ; they 
 had resumed specie payments, ami they have 
 gone on reducing their IndebtedueKis ai;d the 
 burden of that indebtedness and of reducing it 
 Ls ni-t fell by tho people of the United States. 
 And so it is wiih us. Weave just euierying 
 from a gieat war. against ci)o obt^tacles ot na- 
 ture — a i-ucces(fiil, a triutn;ihajt war — and 
 wc have removed all those obstacles and made 
 our country one; and tho samo result will 
 follow. \Ve have created public works which 
 will bo more important factors in enablin.g us 
 to redeem our indebtedness than were to the 
 United States tho honored graves of the men 
 whr» fell on their battlefields. We have for 
 our indebtedness visible public property to re- 
 present it. When we went into Confedera- 
 tion in 1867 our indebtedness was $75,728,- 
 041. On tho admission of Prince Edward 
 Island and British Columbia it was increased 
 by tho debts of tliose provinces and by the 
 allowance to Manitoba, and in 1874 and 1884 
 additional allowances were made to all the 
 provinces liy tho a.-;sumption of tho debt that 
 was left with Ontario and Quebec. The whole 
 of these increases amount to $27,63i),058, 
 making a totiil indebtedness for that of 1867 
 and additions to the provinces, $103,358,090. 
 On 30th Juno the net iudeotedness reached 
 $190,407,002, or a net increase ou public 
 works and expeuditures of $93,048,993 This 
 is a [)retty lartre sum and it involves the pay- 
 ment of a pretty large amount for interest; 
 but, as 1 have shown, and as I believe, it is 
 not unduly burdensome, considering the con- 
 dition of the people and tho purpo es to 
 which it wa-i expended. But, Mr. Speaker, it. 
 occurs to mo that the ex-F'inanco Ministei 
 will not very much complain of this increase 
 of indobtedrtess — at all events, of the amount 
 that has been expended on public works. It 
 will be in the recollection of the house that 
 in 1874, on the delivery of his first budget 
 Pijeech, he contemplated large undertakings, 
 and proposed to increase the public indebted. 
 
new by {he Hnin of $1 1,000,000. It will aluo 
 l>o ill tho recollection of tiio houso ilmt lit- 
 auked Pm liitiufiit to iuiioaHu thu Uixtttiiu of 
 llie coudliy to the exii:nt ot $:t iiDd.Od" t" 
 mott i)iMuuntH tor inttirt'Ht ou tUe iiccnunu- 
 lutn'i iiuk'btetlniKrt which ho hud iii vitiw. 
 Thut hum ot $:t,(K»o,000 wouhl Imvo jioimitttiil 
 hiru tc havn bonowcd soiin'ihliiK like ij7r>,- 
 00(1,000 ut 4 (101 cent, without any hlLkiiiR 
 fund. And it will aUo he in tho re tntMn- 
 brarice of tho hoiiHe that up to tho day tlu' 
 hon. (jfutloruan took olHcn we had iiad very 
 conHid(.rul)le t-unjluics, and tile addition to 
 tho leveiuu! and t.iio >nrp|iiN that cxiKted at 
 the time of this takiiif^ uttice would nave paid 
 Interest on u very laige expenditure fu- pub- 
 lic works. At the clo>«) ot iho linancial year 
 187'?-7-l, on which he awsniued ollice, tho lu't 
 debt Hmouuted to $108,-J.!t,'jO.'). On aoth 
 June, 18V9-7'J, it amounted to $142,090, 1H7, 
 showing' a nei inrrcatio (if $;t4,(iO.'),2:."J lint 
 the house will undeiKtard lliat the iiidehted- 
 nesi' incurred liy hon. gcntii men oppoMit<! was 
 more ti)au the nuioiint I have juHt named b^' 
 tlie amount of tho iifhcry award which wan 
 paid ii the financial year in whicli iliey left 
 olMce, but after tliey went i-ut of otHce, and 
 this Pduced the amount bv $4,480,882, ho 
 that tho increaHo of indeljtedne.sn for the live 
 ytarsin m iich they were in oflice and for 
 which they were responHible wan $;iO. lijd,- 
 104, or a yearly average increase of 
 $7,8v^l,'2'20. In order to make a com- 
 paiiaon of tho debt-creatinif proclivities 
 of tho two partiefi represented by the 
 present Government an(l hon. gentlemen 
 opposite, I may be permitted to loolt at the 
 figuryrt for which wo are reHponsiblti. 
 
 Mr. Charlton— You are responHible for all. 
 
 Mr. McLklan — 'L'he hon. gentleman wayrf 
 we are roKponsible for all. That i.s a matter 
 which we aro willing to dlscusa on any proper 
 occasion. I mtiy say that tho ex-Finance 
 Uinihter in hia lirst year did not evince any 
 hesitation in increasing tho indebtedness. I 
 have shown that ho came down to tho house 
 and asked to l^i allowed to increase tho indebt- 
 edness in one year by §11, 000, 000, more than, I 
 think, had been att.»mpted up to that period. 
 The increase of indebtednei^s from 18(i7 to 
 lS85,exclti8ivo of theallowances to provinces, 
 was 193,048,483; and tlie hon. geuilemvn 
 opposite aro accountable fer $:i9, 156,1 !j4, 
 leaving $5.1,892,889 as the net increase 
 chargeable to our right hon. leader for the 
 thirteen yeareof his administration, showing 
 an average increase of $4, 1 45, 156 as against 
 an average increase of $7,831,220 by hon. 
 gentlemen opposite. The hon. member for 
 North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton) says we are 
 responsible for it oil, but he will find that by 
 a comparison of the figures that wh m he and 
 his friends were in power they increased the 
 debt by $7,831,220 a year, while wo on this 
 side have, in thirteen years, only increased it 
 $4,145,156. Perhaps the hou. gentleman 
 
 will say that I ahonlrt not have d''diirttvl fruira 
 this amoimt the $27,030,000 allowed to tli'^ 
 old and ti) the new provinuia Uiit I tiiki 
 that cut bocauHo tl\ti provinces of Prliui* 
 Kdwaril IsUiul and Hii;ii.ti (Joluniioa, wIimi 
 they caniD id, had dbtHti,) ii them, and ir. 
 was merely a transfer of iudebtedncj.sn to tlit 
 Dominion. Tbo Provinces of Ontario and 
 Quebec having l)eon relieved of their indelH* 
 eduesa, all tho other pi'ovinces rtcoivod a 
 proportionatf! amount in order to enable tluni 
 to meet their lo(;al reiiuirernent.s. Put whil'.« 
 I do not say that we KJiotd i be ( barged fur 
 that $27,630,000 which came from tho pro- 
 viucert, I do not pretend to charge it to hou. 
 gentlemen opposite. Thny are, sir, not 
 guilty of Incurring any public IndebtednosH 
 for any of the jjrovinces. They in.'ver gave a 
 dollar to one »f the provinces to Inci'itane thoir 
 funds for loial lequirements, nor aililed a 
 province to tho Dominion ; every acre of terri- 
 tory that has lieen added to the Dour-iion at 
 large, and every dollar that lias been provided 
 for tho local funds of tho piovincos, has beoii 
 paid by our light hon. loader and his party 
 from 1867 down to the presei.t time. N.)W, 
 sir, I have stated that, apart inm the oiiL,inal 
 indel,t<:dnebH of the prcivinces in 1.S67, and 
 a|),'irt from wlmt we luivo addeil for the pri>- 
 vinces admitted, ami apsumeil from the older 
 province, that the Increase of indebteduflss to 
 18>^5 has been 5',i3,048,O00. This is lepre- 
 sented by raiiwayn, l>y canals, .•^nd by public 
 buildings, in all amounting to $142,550,87.1. 
 .So that taking tho puiposes outside and apart 
 from tho admis^ion of tho w^'f provinces, arid 
 the additions that we have made to t!ie 
 revenues of the older province^•, we have in- 
 creased the public del)t ^JiKJ.o 18,000, and have 
 expended on public works §142,55n,875. So, 
 in addition to tlio increase of debt, wo have 
 expended $49,501,882 paid from annual reve- 
 nue, showing a large margin ot property 
 which is held by tho Dominion over and 
 al'ove its indebtedness to tho public. The 
 next item, h'v; in the Public Accounts of any 
 magnitude, is sinking fund, which has now 
 reached a very largu sum, which was last year 
 $1,482,051, the accumuiationd amounting to 
 j $15,885,000 as available for the redempti.m 
 I of tho public indebtednes.s. I como now to ano- 
 ! ther large item lu iuo Fublii Atrcourito, anl I 
 am disposed to ask tho house to bear with me 
 a little, because I lind in respect to this item 
 that there lias been a great change, or there 
 has been a now manifestation of opinion — I 
 do not say of public opinion, but of party opin- 
 ion—In respect to that item. We saw it an- 
 nounced last autumn that a convention of the 
 Liberal party was to be held in the city of 
 Toronto. That convention was held, and it 
 was spoken of by tho organ of the party a.- 
 being a large and re[)re8entative convention. 
 I turn to the Qlobo oi the 16th September, 
 and I find an editorial heiwiod as follows : 
 "YouuK Liberals— Getting fairly down to>. 
 
la 
 
 >Tork— Tne wo k of the day —Rosolul ions adopt- 
 ed by the oouvciitioa— Hon. E. Blake elected 
 ^on. preWdonl," 
 
 That article uaid : 
 
 " The most Bangui ne hopes of the young men 
 who orltflnated the Idea of n conveutlou of 
 yo>vig Liberals from all parts of thi; province, 
 and who have for the past few mouths been 
 ■working to promote the niovomeut through- 
 out the couutrj', were far exceeded yesto:day 
 moriilng as groups after groups of metnbers 
 presented thonisolvcsat ihe doors of Sbades- 
 Dury hall to attend the convention. The ob- 
 server could not fall lo notice I Ije alert, active 
 bearing of the delegates, and thwlr general 
 look of keen iuttllige;jet. It may be sa'.d with- 
 out oirensiveness toward any other tjatbi'ring 
 that th'.irH never before has been in Tor.into 
 or probab'y In the Dominion an assembla^'e 
 pervaded by a mor..: tliorouijhiy Canadl in ai i . 
 while I here was plenty of Lfe, there was little 
 iMjisterousuess. and while tne utmcos', good 
 humor and courtesy prevailed, there was mani- 
 fested a most bu.slness-llke iutoli'rance of nny- 
 thluKlliat seem d to tend toward sectional- 
 ism, hobby-r.diuif, or the Indulgence ita fads of 
 anykiud. All appeared to fully re:illze that 
 they wens not hdro for mere amusemi'Ut or 
 child's play, but to discuss Kob--rly and con- 
 scientiously the political altuition of the coun- 
 try." 
 
 Now, with such an aanouucemen*: as this, 
 and with the descriptiou of sucli an assembl- 
 age as this, I think it but right that its doings 
 should receive some considenitiun at the 
 hands of the country aud of myself on this 
 occasion. On the ffallowing day the same 
 piper said ; 
 
 "The young Liberal convention resumed 
 session at y o'clock this mor'iiue, the I'e.viv 
 eleeted p-esident, Mr. .. F. MeT:ityre, in the 
 cUrtlr. Th'.' dell gates were puneiuiil ;ujd the 
 attendance larjjer than the prsvious da , ." 
 
 In the Globe of the ptdcediug day, the uames 
 of a lartte number of gentlemen ate given I 
 do not kuovf many of them, but I happen t^; 
 know the pre.sideut, Mr Mclutyre, and 1 am 
 sure he in not engaged iu anything like 
 hobbv-iidiijg or fads of any kind, imd I take 
 it this moaas serious business. 1 find the 
 Glolic of the following day anaouucing ai 
 follows : 
 
 "The Liberal convention, whlci: closed Its 
 meetings on Wedue.sday, way uli which its 
 most sanguine friends c r.ild have wished if to 
 be. The attendance WHS larae and thorouLrhlv 
 rep'esentatlvd; the speaking e.vceptioually 
 good; the orderliness and biisiness tact dis- 
 played such as the most frtstidiouscoiilduot ob- 
 ject to; wh lo the most absolute freedoiri ofd s- 
 cnssioii wasmainUiiued t:u'out;lu)ut. .Mwtiuns 
 were only voied down after tho ein theirfa oi' 
 had been full'' heard. However much iiii\of 
 the spe.aers mlgHt b' out of acco;d with "tl\e 
 general Mentlminit und feeling of i h(> wieotinir, 
 they still received patient, aud oiiunoous at- 
 tenil -n to ineclo^e, .and w hilLMlioir ar_'a en's 
 andui.terano-^s wereirea ed with perfe -t fi-ank- 
 ne-s, there was noattempt niadeeltheruiulu y 
 to weakiMi the .orce of these or belllile their 
 impnriauce. 
 
 " NoiiUMg was more conspicuous througho'.it 
 than tlie uniform g)od t/omp^'r displaced, as 
 well Jis tho readiness with which the points 
 were taken, and the frank cordiality with 
 which, as far as possible, concessions we'e ac- 
 Quicesed iu.and a full .\.et m'lderateand sound- 
 ly Liberal pro m amine agreed upon. J'hore was 
 little or no crankiness; no settled aoierralu- 
 -atiou to rile hobbio.s;"— 
 
 You see that on the first day it was announced 
 that no hobbies were to be ridden, and that 
 at the close it was stated that no hobbies had 
 been ridden. 
 
 " no persls ent efTort to carry at all hazards 
 any particular or personal fad ; no resolution 
 to lead ; no apparent desire, even, to shine. It 
 was a business mjetlug, aud vf.M accordingly 
 conducted In a practical, buslness-llko style. 
 
 " To say that It was ' captured ' by any clique 
 or coterie whatever would be absurdly out of 
 accord mce with faots. The oonve rtiou wou'd 
 neither stultify nor compromise itself by going 
 further than tho majority of Its members ap- 
 proved of, or by stop'jln^ short of wnat th tt 
 ma^j irity believed to bo indispensable If oaco 
 o:' twice the tall s jugat to shake the dig, the 
 dog simply refused to bo sh (ken, and the tail 
 then aooepted tho situat'ou aud subsld.;d, If It 
 did not peruaps altogeth . r acquiesce." 
 
 N )w, I And that the fieatimenta of that con- 
 vention were participated in by llie Club Na- 
 tional, of Montreal, whicii sent this : 
 
 " The Club National, Montreal, sends greet- 
 ings, and wl'<he8 succ 'ss t') your movement. 
 Let your p'atform bi a broad one. <.)ur aspira- 
 tions are alike. Th'-y may to-lavala-m many 
 because of their holdness. bu: ideas ripen as 
 quick as men, and Witii pluck ar?d energy we 
 may live to harvest what we sow la the politi- 
 cal Hold — ..;. UANnUHAXD, President." 
 
 To this tho president of the convention re- 
 plied : — 
 
 " The Young Men's Ibera! association of On- 
 tario in convention 'i8semt)led, heartily accepts 
 the fraieru'il greeting, good wishes and coun- 
 sels of the Club iXational as conveyed by your 
 telegram and Mayor B laugrand. We are try- 
 ing to arrange f>)r a Diminlon convention at 
 M'lniieal, with a view to lurther the cause 
 which you and we h ive so earnestly at heart. 
 Tue i)latr ir a we have adopted ;s practical and 
 progressive, and oar eutimonts are largely in 
 cousoaa cewith yours. 
 
 " A. F. MclNTYKE, president." 
 
 Now, Mr. Spoaket, I have road one of those 
 headings in whch it wa^ declared that tlie 
 Hoi. E B:ake, the lealer of hi;i patty, was 
 oleoteii honorary president of tliat organiza. 
 tion, 1 find that the hou gentleni-iu accept- 
 ed the honor, antl acce|)ted thv.^ p!atf )rm that 
 I was laid down there, and he took occasion to 
 I announce that iu his celebrated speech at 
 Lond'iii. 0.\ that oc;'asioii Mr I* vke said ; — 
 
 i "It hank you, from the bottom of my heart 
 ; 1 1 liank yon, for the warmth aud cordiality of 
 I your refeptJon. 1 know it to be far b'-yond 
 ] any pi'ur deserts of mine, but it, is auotbec and 
 ! most marked expression of that continuous, 
 ! abiding aud unbouniled kindness and co ifl- 
 \ d.Mic^ whi<',h has been showereil on me b.y the 
 1 Liberal par'y for these mauy years, and speci- 
 ' I'lly during those dark and trying times which 
 have p'l-sed sine; I took the lead. Will you 
 I allow me louse this my oarlle^^t opportunity, 
 I to congratulate the Lib.!rals of (jutarioon the 
 I a;;tivity th'.-y ard i.ow displaying, i»nd partlcii- 
 i larly lo express ray J.iy at the eneraetic con- 
 ; duct and 8U(?cessful organizati n oftheyounu 
 Liberals— (cheers)— and my grateful thanks for 
 tlie lionor d me me by myeleetion to the hon- 
 orary presidency of their great couventloa, a 
 gathering from which I anticipate the best re- 
 sults." 
 
 The hon. loader of the Opposition there ac- 
 cepts the presidency of the organization form- 
 ed at that convention, and accepts the plat- 
 form adopted. I was uncier the impresslBU, 
 
11 
 
 /' 
 
 «iv, that there was but one opinion upon the 
 matter to which I roferred among the whole 
 people of this Doniinitm. I find that one of 
 the resolutiouH — and I only deal with tho one 
 bearing; on the matter I have now in hand — 
 reads thuH : — 
 
 " Il»^wWved-That this convention dlsap- 
 prov. s of tilt paj'mfnt of subsidies out of tiie 
 Doiu nlon trndsury to the Froviucl'il leglsila- 
 turt's. lellpviiig tlial tho s.vh tra of snbsiai s 
 leads to cxt.rava^anco ou the partoftlif prf>- 
 ■viuoiiil legl <laturt(s, hocaus.i tho.v liave the 
 power of expendlog money without tlie re- 
 8P'>nf-iljUity ofUupislnt? taxes; also, tho «ub- 
 sidy system as oitrried ou'. in Canada causes the 
 bulk of the revenues to ho collected by Imlli'ect 
 taxation, whereas dlroci taxation is more just 
 anil m :>r« eeorioniical. Tiierffore, resolved that 
 thisi'onveniJon nppov< s of such achansfo In 
 the British North America aci as shad provide 
 that each province of the Con federal ion shall 
 collect as well as expend Us own revenues." 
 
 Now, this is 80 important a proposition that I 
 thought it desirable to call the attention of 
 the house to the matter at this stage oi my re- 
 view of the at'counts. We are now paying 
 out to the several provinces about $4,000,000. 
 Tho pliitfoim adopted by the Opposition gen- 
 tlemen, and accepted by tiie leader of the 
 Opposition, declares tliat it is unwise and um- 
 just that we sbouM continue the payment of 
 these subsidies, and that the provincial legis- 
 latures should b', taught to resort to direct 
 taxatioD in order t'l raise tbe revenues they 
 require, so thai, ibey miv b-- taught economy 
 in their expendituie. Xow, 1 have no di)ubt 
 that il.vis »<ill greatly relieve hon. gentlemen 
 oijpi.isite, sliDuld they ever come to power. 
 The he: member for Soutii Huron {Si: 
 Kichard Cartwiight) would find it a consider- 
 able relief to his estimates if he could have 
 that plank of the Opposition platform adc>i)ted 
 I" ilie country, and could strike out of hi> 
 estimaies the $4,000,000 that wo now provide 
 for subsidies. But until that time comes, 
 and until the hon, gentleman can persuade 
 the country to acci-pt that doctrine and resort 
 to direct taxation for local purposes, we fhall 
 have t } provide in our estimates for provincial 
 euboidit's under tlie IJiitish North America 
 act, and, I thitd<, for some considerable time 
 we shall be called upon to do so. Therefore, 
 Mr. Speaker, I liave provided in theestiniites 
 •for 1880-S7 for t!ni payments of (he subsidies 
 to the lr)cal legislatures. C'jiHingthen to the 
 expenditures for i)ii))lir woik>?, < hargul to 
 revenue, they amount to $2, ,'502, 302, for 
 'which, as I am sur.i boa. gentlemen who 
 hiive seen the works constrticted by 
 that deparrmi'iu, know we hive value 
 and t'.;ey were called fur bv tho wants oi the 
 country, Tlu; post ollice has beju lor some 
 years increasing tbe chaiges upon (jur reveuue. 
 In t'je opening up of the^,Northw"st it wis 
 iiece>sary ti:at wo shoidd give postal accorao- 
 dati m to lart;e districts from \vhi< h there 
 wa-- very li; lie return ; but, notwithstanding 
 wc we'll called upon to make extraordinary 
 exp .1 i.H i'l furuisbiug additional awommo- 
 
 dation, the receipts from the Post Office de- 
 partment compare moat favorably with those 
 of preceding years. In 1884, there was a 
 falling off of the revenue, which has been 
 made up by the returns of 1885 ; and so far 
 in the present year there seems t j be a steady 
 increase. I m'ly be permitted, in this con- 
 nection, to give a few statistics by way of 
 comparison : — In 1878 we had .5,378 post 
 ortices, in 1885 we had 7,084, an increase ot 
 1,706. The miles of post route in 1878 were 
 38,730, and in 1885 50.461 ; or an increase of 
 1 1, 731 The letters sent in 1878 amounted 
 to 44,000,000, and in 1885 68,400,000, show- 
 ing an increase of 24,400,000. The money 
 order post ofh.;e8 in 1878 numbered 70;t, and 
 in 188;) 885, an increase of 1 IG. The amount 
 of mones^ orders issued in 1878 was $7, 130,- 
 805, and in 1885 $10,384,210, an increase of 
 $3,253,315. There has b.^en an increase la 
 the letters sent of 24,400,000, or 55 45 per 
 cent, between 1878 and 1885; and I find, 
 on cciinparlng our returns with the postal re- 
 turns ot older countries — with those of Great 
 Britain, for instance — that our percentage of 
 increase has been very much larger than tho 
 percentage in that country, as in 1878, the 
 letters despatched in Great B ilain were 
 1,058,000,000, and in 1885 l,:i00,000,000, 
 showing an increase of 302,000,000, or 28 54 
 per cent., against our increase of 55 45 per 
 cent.; so that we have an incrrase nearly 
 double thot of Great Britain. Tlie irxTease 
 of the receipts and expenditure may be cooi- 
 parcsd also Our receipts in I'S 78 amounted 
 to fjl,207,7i)0, and in 1885 to $1,841,372, an 
 increase of $033,582, or 52.40 per cent. Our 
 expenditure in 1878 amounti^ to $1,724,038, 
 ft id in 1885 to !52 483,315, an increase of 
 $703 377, or 44. 'jio percent. Thu.s our re- 
 •jtip's from the post ofii :e, since 1878, in- 
 creas<;d 52 per cent, while our expenditure! 
 increased only 44 25 per cent. Between , 
 1874 and 187S a similar corii:)arison might be | 
 made. The receipts from 1874 to 1878 in- 1 
 creased but 5.94 per cent , while th« expenses 
 increased 24.3 4 per cent., so that, althoui^h 
 between l-;74 and 1878 the exptudituie 
 showed a njiieh greater p'jrceutage ot increase 
 than the recdpts, the iucreasi: of receipts be- 
 tween 1878 and 1885 is much larger than the 
 increase of expenditure. The increase of 
 ' traffic oa i">ur railways and canals has also 
 I called for a very largo expenditur..-, which 
 I touni.ls to swell '.ho volume of the estimates, 
 j will uui at all affecting tho taxation of the 
 ; country. I may be pt-rmilted to refer to tho 
 j increase in the tralh.: at another time, but I 
 ' say thf' large expi ndituro which we are ca.lled 
 ■ upon (•) make (;i the workinc; ot tho Inter- 
 j colonial railwa> and of otir canals, has tended 
 io increase tee voUune of expenditure shown 
 i in tho i.ublic accounts, without at all increas- 
 ing the UA,:'tion of the country. Yet it has 
 beon attem))te..^ to convey the impression 
 that all this incr. "« ofv<lum" in the ac- 
 
12 
 
 counts ii^ an increase :: laxation. I have 
 shown that the recfipts from sources which 
 are not taxation, have, since 1878, very 
 largely increased, running from ,•54,000,000 
 up to between $7,000,000 and $8,000,000. 
 Ifvewer(! to-ruorrow to take posKcssion of 
 all (ho teligraph lines in the country, and 
 were to send me'-sayes at less rates than are 
 now charged, the volume of our accounts 
 would by largely increased, while there 
 would, perhaps, be a gain to the peoples, atil, 
 con>equehtly. lei^s taxation, owing to tlu) re- 
 duced rates which we might charge for the 
 mer^i-ages. lu this caj^e, as in the 
 others, the volume of puiilic expendi- 
 ture might be largely iucreasod, and 
 it might with the «ame propriety be 
 misrepreseuted to hhow there was a large in- 
 crease in the taxation of the country, although 
 in reality there was a decrease, A great deal 
 has been said on the hustings with reference 
 to our position in I8ii7, and 1 have beeu re- 
 minded of the charge which has been so per- 
 sistently and cortinuouslly made agninst us- 
 in connection with the increase, ofourexpeud- 
 ituie from 18G7 to 188"). It may not be un- 
 profitable, then, to go back to 18G7 and make 
 some compar'.suns between the expenditure in 
 that year of over $13,000,000 and the expendi- 
 ture of 1885, so tliat we may see wherein- 
 uiere ban been an iuciense, and in what way, 
 it auy, we are ameua'ile to the charge of hav- 
 ing iinduly increased the expenditure. 1 have 
 pointed out that the receijits from railways, 
 public works and pes! offices, and other 
 •sources, none of which are taxation any more 
 tiiaii would be the expenditure on telegrap i 
 lines, have nearly doabltd smce 1378, whilst 
 from 1807 they have very nearly ([undrupleif. 
 1m 1h07, the receipts were $1,1)87.24", and in 
 1885 they weie $7,809,80',', showing an in- 
 crease iu receipts ol$5, 818, 842, and the ex- 
 pent-es have correspondingly increase. !, Now, 
 the incrmses for working these Hei> ices, I 
 rhuik, should be fairly taken out of the ac- 
 counts before' we institute the comparison. I 
 have sliowu that the hou. gentit mevi opposite 
 are more chargeable with having ii creased 
 the public indebtedness of the com try than 
 gentlemen on this side, and, at all events, if 
 they are not, that we iiave good proj erty and 
 good value ,'orthe expenditure tliut we have 
 made, and that therefore the charge for inter- 
 est might also bo eliminated from the ac- 
 counts before we proceed with the com- 
 parison. Then there is the increafe of sub- 
 sidies to the local governments. We have 
 brought in new provinces, wo liave increased 
 the subsidies that wo have paid, and I do not 
 think that that increase, at least, should be 
 chargeable against i.n. We have added ne<v 
 territory, and we have been compelled to in- 
 cur new expenses which were not iu the ac- 
 counts of 18fl7— 1 mean expenses in the 
 Noithwi^st. Now, if we vake from the ac- 
 count) all such expenses as I have referred 
 
 to, we come down to the increase in the or- 
 dinary \v( rkings of Government, of which the 
 hon. gentlemeu hare a right to complain if 
 we have unduly increased them since 1 8^57. 
 F'irst, dealing with the interest in its gross 
 charge, and excluding the receipts, there is 
 an inc-ease in 1883 over 1867-8, without 
 mauagerueiit, of .34,917,014. On construction 
 and r.pairs of public works there is an '.n- 
 crease of $2,423, ,'iOO, and, as 1 have said, wo 
 have visible property for this, so that this 
 may come out. The increase on the working 
 expenses of railways and canals, which is not 
 a charge to taxation, is $2,840,745. The in- 
 crease for the post ofHco is $1,871,513 ; sub- 
 sidies to t lie new provinces, $1,205. 360 ; the 
 increase in the sinking fund, and discounts 
 and exchange, is $1,207,9(33; on immigra- 
 tion and (luarantine, and on services in con- 
 nection with the Northwest Territory, $717,- 
 830. The protection and cultivation ci fish- 
 eries and the payment of the fishing iiounty 
 is a new service, which, 1 assume, will be 
 approved very erenerally by the house, and in 
 that the increase is $250,000. Tlien there 
 are those services which are entirely new — 
 the mounted police, Dominion huid--, Indians 
 in the Northwest and in Biiti'^k Columbia, 
 and the Government of the Northwest, 
 amounting to $2,331,929. Then there is a 
 chavgo ot ,$1,791,851 for the trouble iu tlie 
 Nordiwest, iu the accounts of 1885. Taking 
 out these special items, of increases, from the 
 accounts of 1885, we have left <'ivil govern- 
 ment, legislation, administration of justice, 
 tiie inaintenancu of the penitentiariei--, the col- 
 lection of customs from Haliifax to Victoria, 
 ih", coliectiou of excise, the militia aud defence 
 of thejcouutiy, the maintenance of lights, buoys 
 and fog alaiins, marine hospitals, distressed 
 seamen, steamboat and insurance inspection, 
 pensions, management of the public debt, 
 aed miseijllaneous services in regard to all 
 (It which we might make a comparison with 
 180 7; and iu making this comparison it 
 muKt be borne in mind that we are govern- 
 lug, we are legislating for and iid ministering 
 justice to a country ten times larger than it 
 was in 18(37, that wc; are collecting twenty 
 millions of revenue from customs instead of 
 eight, and six millions from excise instead 
 of tliree, and that all the other services are 
 proportionately increased ; and yet the fig- 
 ures show only an increase iu the expendi- 
 ture of a littlo over two millions of dollars 
 in eighteen years. If you take the total ox- 
 per.diture of 1884-85,' $35,037,060, and 
 deduct the increase upon the special rervicos 
 I which 1 have named as proper to be takea 
 ! out, $19,460,(558, you have left $15,567,402 ;, 
 ' from whieh take the expenditure of 1807-68, 
 i $13,480,092, urui ou have for eightetai years 
 I an increase upou all thvi services I have 
 I n.'iuitd ot only $2.01^,310. Andlooking at 
 i he changes in the country, io^iKing at the 
 ' increased area and the increa'^ed buMues:^ we 
 
\ 
 
 13 
 
 i bave been doing, there is not a country in 
 (the world that has shown bo little iucreaKo 
 in all those matters connected with the civil 
 ^government of the country as the Dominion of 
 i-Canada has during that period. If we go to 
 theCnited StaU^s we find that the expeuiliture 
 in 1867 was f.M ,110,224— that is exclusive of 
 army, navy, pensions, war, Indians and the 
 Interest. In 1885 it had risen to $8 7,494, - 
 ,000, an increase of $36,000,000, without any 
 increase of area at all such as we have. So, 
 as I said, there is not. perhaps, in the history 
 of the world, an instance in which a country 
 has extended her operations so largely, has 
 Inoreai' . . the responsibilities and duties of 
 government so much, and has not increased 
 her expenses, more than the Dominion of 
 ■Canada. I might take up any one of the 
 services to which I have referred and show 
 what an enormous increase there has been in 
 all the dopartmonts, I might be permitted, 
 perhaps, to detain the house for a few mo- 
 ments, in order to refer to the lighthouse and 
 coast service, and to show the great increase 
 there has been in that service, as an illustra- 
 tion of the increase in every department of 
 the public service. In 1807 the member for 
 Northumberland (Mr. Mitchell) took charge 
 of tbe lighthouse and buoy service of the 
 Dominion nu'l of the lights existing at Con- 
 fediiratiou. The number then was 227 light- 
 houses and two fog alarms, and the expundi- 
 ture was $174,082. The hon. gentleman 
 saw the importance of that service, and with 
 that vigor of intellect and that energy for 
 which ho is so distinguished in this house or 
 out of it, gave that energy and that vigor of 
 intellect to the improvement of that service, 
 and I am sure it could not have been better 
 employed than m improving and facilitating 
 the navigation of the coinitry and in providing 
 means to render life and i.iroperty more secure 
 than it was in 1867, when ha took charge of 
 it. When he went o'U in 1873-4, he had in- 
 creased the lights to 384, and the fog alarms 
 to eighteen — an increase of 157 lights in the 
 comparatively short time during which he 
 administered the department. The lujn. 
 gentlemiiu had successors In Sir Albert Smith 
 and Hon. Mr. Pope, and, when they left 
 office, the number of lights had increased to 
 553. When I took charge of the department, 
 I supposed, looking at the large increase, 
 that there would be no additions retiuired, 
 but the new services, the opening up of the 
 country, and the increased shipping to all 
 parts of it, called for additions even to the 
 largo number that had been already made. 
 When I left that department, a few months 
 ago, I left it with the number increased to 
 C17, and with an expenditure of $530,446. 
 That expenditure, sir, covered the construc- 
 tion of tto lighthouses of the year, 
 it covered the maintenance of the <J17 
 lighthouses that were then in operation, 
 all the buoy service, with the addition of 
 
 the coast servic", and tho maintenance 
 of the different fog alarms that had largely 
 been increased throughout the cctmtry. I 
 only refer to this to illustrate the extent of the 
 service that wo are called upon to d< al with 
 in the government of the country. Notwith- 
 standing, that the work has so largely in- 
 creased, I have shown to the house that in the 
 eighteen years, (.ompariag 18(57 with 1885, 
 thoro has been ai increase of slightly over 
 two million dollars, which is unequalled, I 
 >:ay, in the history of any othcu- country in 
 the world ; and I antiripite tliat in the 
 eighteen years to come we sliall not be called 
 upon to make even so large an increase as 
 this to the ordinary expenditure of govern- 
 ment, because we shall riot bo increasing our 
 area and adding now provinces so largely as 
 we have done. The current year ha? heen so 
 far characterized by several disturbing 
 elements to trade and revenue Wo had in 
 tho early part of the year the Northwest 
 trouble, we had the ett'ccts of tiio anticipation 
 of the revenue tliat had been male through 
 Excise, we had the disturbance of trade which 
 occurred m the city of Montreal, owinij to the 
 smallpox epidemic wuich disturbed, to a largo 
 extent, and for a considerable time, the tiade 
 ot that great commercial metropolis. All 
 these things have had their elfdct on the trade 
 of the country, and upon the revenues that 
 wore derived. At the i)resent time, sir, we 
 stand fairly well. Taking out Northwest ex- 
 penditure and putting that aside, we had up 
 to the 20th March, when the return was 
 mad;, a total expenditure of $25,l».^8,481. Of 
 this there has 1)eou charged to the war ex- 
 penses $2,502, y3(j, leaving as the ordinary 
 expenditure $23,455,545. The receipts from 
 all sources up to the same d.ate h.ive been 
 $24,030,060, or a surplus at the present 
 time, or up to the 2i)thof March, of $574,515. 
 That is very well as far as it goes, but we 
 have very considerable expondituie to meet 
 during the year in the shajte of interest and 
 other items, wh^'^h I fear will not leave the 
 balance at the end of the year at all so favor- 
 able. Looking at the expenditure of 1M85-86, 
 it will be seen that the detailed amounts of 
 supply during the last session on account of 
 the consolidated fund, amount to $35,275,000. 
 Taking out of this sum S2,3(j0,OOO estimated 
 as the expenditure in connt:ctioii with tho 
 Northwest rebellion, the ordinary expenditure 
 as estimated was $32, 975, 000. This will 
 have to be supplemented by an addition for 
 tho interest on tbo puLHc debt of $730,000. 
 The amount included in tho estimate of 1885- 
 86 for new loans and other indebtedness was 
 $2,250,000, of which the amount for now 
 I loans was placed at $1,880,000, representing 
 I a capital of $47,000,000, from which deduct 
 tho amount of tho 5 per cent, consolidated 
 I loan of $31,371,000, converted to 4, leaving 
 I $i?,027,000 for new loans. After tho 5 per 
 I cent. .c*n was converted into a 4 per ceat. 
 
14 
 
 there wan borrowed $10,440,6GG, and there 
 was a temporary loan (if $5,835,000, and an 
 increase in the depositn in the savings bank 
 of $4,442,203. It will be seen that there was 
 thus borrowed the Kuin of $14, 125,000 more 
 than we covered by tbo estim.Ue. The in- 
 terest on this amount will bo $5(53,000, and 
 there is required in order to cover the sub- 
 sidies given to the province of Quebic $110,- 
 000, which was not estimated for, and $471,- 
 000 the interest on the 5 per cent, stock wliich 
 was converted into 4 per cent., for wbichonly 
 one-half the interest was calculated by Sir 
 Leonard when he made his estimates. There 
 was also a further increase in the sinking 
 fund which was not estimated lor, 
 being a year's payment on the reduced 
 loan. Those who have studied carefully the 
 pul)lic accounts of that year will find that Sir 
 Leonard Tiliey did not take an estimate for 
 sinking fund for the loan which he converted 
 from 5 [)er cent, inlo 4 percent., I suppose 
 his inieution being to issue a now loan and 
 issue it without a linking fund. It was rou- 
 verted on the same conditions as regards 
 sinking fund, and we shall have to provide 
 for that $470,000. The other ordinary ex- 
 penditures on account of public works, post 
 otBco, lighthoutie, coa«t, militia. Franchise 
 act, and other services charged to the con- 
 solidated fund, will amount to $1,500,000, 
 giving a total to be added to the ordinary ex- 
 p.Miditure of about $2,700,000. 
 
 Mr. Landkrkin. — What amount will bo re- 
 qaiied for the Franchise act? 
 
 Mr. McLel.in. — That amount we shall be 
 able to ettiniate more c'osely later on. These 
 sums show an estimated payment to be made 
 during the ycnr somewhere in the neighbor- 
 hood of $;i8,'500,000,from which if we deduct 
 what we expect to be required and what we 
 have in this estimate, including an amount 
 for expenses in the Northwest, $3,500,(.'00, 
 there will remain $35,000,000 as the ordin- 
 ary expenditure to be provided for. It is es- 
 timated, from what we have received up to 
 the present time, that the receipts under the 
 respective heads will be as follows: We 
 had received up to yesterday from customs 
 $14,499,004. Wo estimate to receive sulfi- 
 cient to make the sum amount to $19,500, - 
 000. From excise we have received $5, 1 7 1, - 
 000, and we expect to receive $f', 250)000. 
 From tbe other sources, post office, railways, 
 etc., we expect to olitaiu for the year 
 $7,890,000. All these sums, deducted from 
 what we estimated to be the expenditure, 
 will leave, on the year's business, a deficit of 
 $1,450,000. This, as I said at the outset, 
 should be divided between the two 
 years of 1885 and 1880, inasmuch 
 as part of tho revenue due to 
 the present year has been anticipated 
 and gone to the credit oi' 1885. Coming to 
 the estimates submitted to the house for 1886- 
 87 1 desire to say that, so far as 1 have found I 
 
 it possible, I have estimated in full for overy 
 service we are called upon to meet, except, 
 perhaps, public works, aiid there are so many 
 claims, so many demands, and apparently 
 with good reason, made upon that depart- 
 ment, that, until the house ri^es, it i^ almo^it 
 impossible to say how much will bo required 
 for that service. My hon. colleague, the 
 Minister of Public Works, is so anxious to 
 meet the wishes of all the representatives of 
 the people that it is difficult to say when his 
 demr'uds upon tlie treasury will be all in. 
 Taking the several items in detail I have a 
 few observations to offer. Tho main increase 
 arises in the public debt servic! The in- 
 crease in the interest on the public debt is 
 estimated at $118,036, this arising mainly 
 from the incre.ised deposits in the 
 savings banks. There liai-i been during 
 the past year considerable discussion in the 
 |)ublic press respecting the rate of interest 
 which the Government should pay to saviuKS 
 bank depositors, and it seems to be a ques- 
 tion which is growing in importance, and one 
 upon which I think the hon. gentlemen op- 
 posite have taken the view that we should 
 reduce tho interest upon deposits in tho Rav- 
 ings banks. The Government, having con- 
 sidered this question, does not come to that 
 conclusion. We believe it is in the interest 
 of the country at largo that every encnur.ige- 
 ment should be given to the middle class, to 
 the laboring class, to practice habits of econ- 
 omy and save their earuiiigs as much as pos- 
 sible ; and for this reason we are reluctant to 
 reduce the rate, and we think it would be an 
 injustice to them to roiiuco the rate we are 
 at present paying to such dt^positors. We 
 have examined into the pracuce in other 
 countries, and find that in England a higher 
 rate of interest is paid by the Government 
 than is paid in the commercial 
 banks of the country. Wo find that 
 in several of the states — the stiite of 
 New York, Maine and Massachusetts 
 — 5 per cent, is alloweil to bo paid, and tak- 
 ing all these matters into consideration, and 
 consideriag mainly the fact that it is flesirable 
 to encourage tho working classes to be eoono- 
 mie:il and thrifty in their habits, we have 
 refused to come down to Parliament with a 
 proposition to reduce tho rate of interest in 
 the savings banks. More especially is this 
 tho case when wo are paying for the money 
 we have borrowed abroad, for a large portioa 
 of the public det)t of th i country, a higher 
 rate than wo are paying to uepositors in tlie 
 savings banks. I have had a statement pre 
 pared showing th> rates of interest we are- 
 paying upon tho loans wo havo ett'ected since 
 1874, and althou^jh the nominal rate is 4 per 
 cent., yet when we take into account the 
 charges made by the agents in Loudon, also 
 the discount made upon those loans, it ap- 
 pears we are actually paying for the money 
 we havo obtained in Enghud and abroad, a. 
 
u 
 
 IV 
 
 :t- 
 
 )^t 
 
 fed 
 
 [he 
 
 to 
 
 of 
 
 lis 
 
 |ia. 
 
 a 
 
 lane 
 
 Jin- 
 
 |t is 
 
 July 
 
 the 
 
 J the 
 lest 
 
 UKE 
 
 one 
 
 higher rate of iutereet than we are paying to | 
 oiir own (iepof'itors in the savinss banks j 
 Taking the Feverul loaLf-, from 18V-1 to 1885, i 
 I find we have bo' rowed :fr-;4, 79(5, 598 Upon i 
 that mm there was a digcount, to which 1 ro- ! 
 ferred iu the early part of luy observations to ' 
 the house (,'f $5,005,040. So while we have j 
 t ..-fowed $) 2-1,000.000 odd, and we) owe for | 
 that and are i)a\ing interest upon ir, and 
 Bf)me time we nhall have to pay the capital, 
 we did )iot receive that much money, nearly 
 16,000,000 lest", Fo that the annual intercbt 
 or. the (iro88 auQi nut of those loans is $4,- 
 99I.8'J3. Then take one-half 1 per cent, 
 added an cominissii n for payiutf interest, and 
 it makes the total amount \n',r annum to in- 
 terest, $5,016,823, and an actuarial calcula- 
 tion shows that including charges the rate 
 which the Government pays on those loans 
 is nearly 4j per cent. Now, the returijs of 
 the working of the Post Oftice Savings banks 
 show that the cost, including interest and 
 exuensee. is 4 1-10 per cent., and a statement 
 has been prepared of the amount 
 itt the savings banks under the con- 
 trol of the Finance Department, which 
 shows that the expenses and interest amount 
 to 4-22 per cewt.; the average of both is 4'IG, 
 or 15 100 of 1 per cent, less than is paid to the 
 foreign lener. The Government thinks that 
 it is unfair, while v>o are paying that rate of 
 interest abroad, that we should not pay the 
 same late of interest to the working classes of 
 our own country, and encourage them, as I 
 said before, to habiti of thrift and economy, 
 and to lay by something for a raiiay day. It 
 is a <iuestion which has been raised as to 
 whether the amount received from any one 
 depositor may not be decreased — and some 
 changei^ are likely to be proposed— but other- 
 wise we propose to let the mattei remain as 
 it is. Sinking fund shows au addition of 
 1501,407, chitflv made no by the restoratit-n 
 of 'the sinking fund fur the 4 percent, reduced 
 loan which was omitted last year. I need 
 Bot wtary the house by going over all the 
 particuliiri respecting the small iu- 
 crea>e8 which are proposed to be made 
 in the various nranches. Every care and 
 economy has been exercised in order 
 to reduce them as low a.s ponsible. I said in 
 the outset that we had est imattd largely for 
 thote services which usually come down to 
 the liouse as 3U;>plemeutary estimates, and 
 which include larger amounts than appear in 
 the original estimates. The Indian voto is 
 increased to $170,539, and I expect that will 
 fully cover all the wants of that service. Ttie 
 Mounted police vote has also beeu incn.'ased. 
 There is no hirge increase in the collectiun of 
 revenue service. It will be noticed that 
 there is a reduction in the superannuation 
 service of $10,000. This arises from the fact 
 that the superannuation service was rather 
 overestimated last yefir. This is an item 
 which 1 think deserves some explanatioa to 
 
 the house and to the country, because I find 
 that the working of the Superannuation act 
 has been larj;ely misrepresented— I do not 
 mean to say intentionally misvepregented,bat 
 misi iideriUood. Hon. gentlemen looking at 
 the public accounts, see a^ the receipts 
 from the supi;rannuation fund perhaps $50,- 
 
 000 ; thev see that the charge is made out, 
 say $200,000, and they suppose, as a matter 
 of course, that the superannuation is a tax 
 upon the country of $150,0S0 a year. I sub. 
 mitted to the house, on the opening of Par- 
 liauit'ot, a 8taten;ent of the operation of the- 
 act during the past year, shoeing that, taking 
 the sujierannuations made for the year 1885, 
 there has bean a saving of $5,691, that 
 is, that the superannuation allowance 
 amounted to $18,360, the gratuities to dif- 
 ferent [nrsons $2,568, and the new annual 
 appointments $15,763, making a total of 
 $36,692, whilit the salaries i>reviously re- 
 ceived by the itersons superannuated 
 amounted to $42, 384, showing u saving by 
 the operation of the act of $5,691. But next 
 year, and in the other accounts, the particu- 
 lars of this statement will drop out, and, as 
 
 1 said, all a person will see in examining the 
 operations of the act will be that 
 we receive from the civil service $50,- 
 000 say, and we pay out $200,000, or that 
 theio lias been a loss in the operation of 
 $150,000. Now, this has not been the case 
 from the pas-ing of the act up to the present 
 time. If you examine all the appointments 
 'hut have been mai'.e at lower salaries, and if 
 you ascertain all the vacancies by persons 
 wiu) have been superannuated and their of- 
 fices not filled, yuu will find that there has 
 been a large saving to the country through 
 the operation of that act. In 1880 the Fi- 
 nance department went through the whole 
 service and made a calculation showing the 
 blanches iu which tliere had been a saving 
 and those iu which there had been a loss to 
 the crjuiitry from the operations of the act. 
 i'he Department of Finance showed a saving 
 of S48,54S 73; the Department of Agricul- 
 ture, $18,000 ; the Inland Kwenuo Depart- 
 ment, $42,570; the Department of 
 Public Works, $21,000; the Depart- 
 ment of Murine and Fisheries, $30,- 
 000; Secretary of St^ite, $5,482; De- 
 partment of the Interior, $6,81*3 ; Customs- 
 $177,398. In the Department of Railways 
 and Canals tl.ere has been a loss up to that 
 time of $23,025, Militia and Defence $3,725, 
 Post Office $6,000, or a gross saving of $350,- 
 183, fromwhijh deduct the loss ui the tliree 
 deoartments, and you have still a saving of 
 $317,325 through the operation of the Super- 
 annuation act up to that time. 1 have bad 
 iu my own department the work continued 
 down to the present <iate, and 1 find that for 
 the inside service i>uly the operations show a 
 still favorable result to the country in a sav- 
 ing of over $40,000, and that through the- 
 
 / 
 
If 
 
 continuous operation of thnt act a large pav- 
 iijg %vill be aflecud to ibt coui;try in general. 
 TUi-n, sir, I come to the otter eavitigs which 
 I proiioso to cQ'ect tliis yuar, but I newl not 
 worry the bouse by going through them nil. 
 The total result of my estimates is before the 
 houHe, showing thi;m to be $3a, 124,550. 
 Now, I come to the other side of the 
 account — tho estimated receipts for the 
 years ]88(;-87. I do not propose, I 
 do not think it necessary, to make any 
 very great change in the tariff in order to 
 make up that kuiu, and in order to set some- 
 thing aside to meet the deticit which has 
 arisen from tho disturbance of trade and 
 from the troubles we have experienced 
 in ihe Northwest during the paet year. 
 My chiet alterations will bo chaugis 
 fiom ad valorem to specific duties 
 where I lind it practicable or advisable to 
 do so. There has beeu during the past two 
 ytiars a large decline in the price of foreign 
 goods as well as in the price of homo pro- 
 ductions; but in consequence of depression 
 in other couutaies — greater depression, I 
 must say, than exists in our own country — 
 there has been a considerable slaughter of 
 goods ill other countries, and a great many 
 diUiculties Imvo uiisen iu tho custom house 
 iii arriving at the proper values for entry. 
 With specitk; duties that difliculty would be 
 iargfly obviated ; and I have iu several cases 
 lo propose to the house chauges in 
 that direction, in order to overcome that 
 ■dilliculty and to lessen tlie iuducement to 
 paiiits abrcad to send in gootla with iixhv in- 
 voices Such chauges as I propose to make 
 other than this will be ujion articles which 
 I ihink may fairly bo considered as luxuries, 
 but they will not affect the workingmen, and, 
 thi;re1ore, will not give hou. gentlemen i p- 
 puHite any great iiuiucenieut to increase their 
 cry that we are grinding the poor man down 
 by the burdens of our taxation. Nov., 1 
 think that we may reasonably t;xpect that the 
 revenue during tho year ia86-87 will be as 
 follows: 1 may say, tirsl, that even with tho 
 full benefit of any ch:ingt.:.s ttiat I have pro • 
 posed here, 1 am not couiifing upon any very 
 large increase to the CusioniH revenue ot the 
 country during 188C-8T. Wo have had, or 
 we are to have, the Canadian Pacilic railway 
 opened through to Briti.'^li Columbia. Hon. 
 gentlemen know by the returns that tho 
 amount of duties coU'Cted iu IJrifish Colum- 
 bia and Manitoba has bt^eu out of proportion 
 to the ordinary colleciiontj in other parts of 
 the country of similar population, because 
 they have been shut out from coimectiou 
 with the manufacturers of the country, and I 
 believe that, with tho opening of the road, a 
 great deal of tho trade which hitherto went 
 lioni British Cvjlumbia to the United States, 
 and from Manitoba aJso to the United States, 
 will be given to our own manufacturers in 
 ihe Dominion. Therefore, I do not uatici- 
 
 pato 80 largo a revenue from those two prov- 
 inces as we have had in the past. My esti- 
 mate then for tho year 1880-87 will be :— 
 From customs, $20,200,000; from excise, 
 $7,000,000; from post office, railways, inter- 
 est and miscellaneous services, $7,300,000 ; 
 making a total of $34,000,000 ; iagainst 
 which I have >hown an estimated 
 expenditure of $33,124,650, leaving, 
 as the estimates now stand, a surplua 
 of !fl,375,450. This, of course, when my 
 hon. friend the Minister of Public Works haa 
 hud his say, so far as he can have, will prob- 
 ably he reduced ; still I hope that the public 
 set vice will not call fora very large additional 
 expenditure this year, and that the amount of 
 the anticipated surplus for 1880-87 will not 
 be very largely reduced by supplementary 
 e^^timates. It may be that tho hon. gentle- 
 man who will follow me will think I have 
 over-estimated this matter, and that I am 
 over-sanguiuo as to tho amount T shall re- 
 ceive during the coming year of 1880-87. 1 
 suppose that, if he speaks by tho experience 
 of tho past, he will say 1 am. Ho might tell 
 us that he entered upon his administration 
 full of hope, as 1 am ; that ho had great ex- 
 pcctations of revenue, and that, when he pro- 
 posed to increase the duties by three 
 millions of dollars, there was no doubt in 
 i his mind that he would receive that 
 1 addition to his revenue ; but we know 
 ! the result ; we know that time, and tho policy 
 j that he was pursuing, frustrated his hopes 
 I and wrought hin political ruin for that period. 
 j 1 know that this may, perhaps, be the 
 I impression on his mind now, and 
 j he may, perhaps, bring us the 
 proof from the records that all this occurred, 
 but 1 believe that the policy this Government 
 is pursuing will lc;ad to bettor results than 
 tlie piilicy which the hon. gentleman and his 
 party luustied from 187 1 to 1878. It is true 
 that we havo not bad in Iho past year or two 
 that ctjmmercial activity that wo had in 1881 
 and 1832, but there has been great caution 
 on the part of our merchants, in view of the 
 great reduction which has been going on in 
 the prices of variu.js goods throughout the 
 world, and there has been a very large reduc- 
 tion, more especially in free trade countries, 
 where the depression was most strong. I am 
 sure, Mr. Speaker, that if we compare the 
 position of the Dominion of Canada in itf 
 t trade with tho condition of any other coun- 
 try, more particularly freo trade comntries, 
 I we will find that the depression has not af- 
 fected us HO seriously as it has some of those 
 I other countries. We have every indication 
 I from tho country at large that there is sound 
 commercial life, and that there is ability to 
 I enlarge commercial operations iu the country, 
 j and I iBly upon that, Tho revenue to bede- 
 riv:'d from a people depends a good deal upon 
 ' the ability of the people to purchase goods 
 I and iipoQ their inclination to do so. I know, 
 
Irov- 
 lesti- 
 
 cise, 
 iter- 
 (100 ; 
 liciat 
 luted 
 
 Mr. Speaker, thitt thn incliDation generally 
 ezittn, Biid the mbllity to do ho we mw on- 
 qair* Into. Coumcuciug^ with the agrical- 
 taral claea, I think we have every reuHon to 
 believe that the farmers of thiH country are in 
 a better position to-day than they have been 
 for years — at all events, in a very much 
 better condition than tiiey were durini? 
 the period from 1874 to 1878. Wo live 
 beside the gieatt<Ht agricnltnral people in 
 the world, perhaps, and tboy aro a people 
 who, notwithstaiulJQg that they have a large j 
 surplus to export, will permit no article of i 
 agricultural produce to enter their country 
 free. That waa the condition of things from 
 1874 to 1873, and yet while that condition 
 of things existed, the policy that was pursued 
 by the Government of this country was to 
 admit all agricultural prmiuco free. Mr. 
 Speaker, I do not wonder that this bad a dt;- ! 
 pressing eflect upon the farmers of this coun- ' 
 try, and I think, sir, that effect upon the ; 
 agricultural community was evinced in the I 
 fact that 80 large a quantity of Am»>rican j 
 farm produce came into this country free, i 
 and was consumed by our people, instead of 
 being supplied by our own farmcr.s. Sir, we 
 have changed that policy, We have Haid to 
 Canadian farmers that just such measure as 
 the American Government has been meting 
 out and does mete out to you, we will mete 
 out to the American farmer. We will 
 endeavor to shut out the large im- 
 portation that has been going on of 
 American farm produce to feed the people of 
 this Dominion, who have so much le.tile soil 
 and so many willing hands to cultivate that 
 Boil and to produce all that is requi:eil for 
 the sustenance of their own people. But we 
 said more. We sr/iu io the Canadian farmer : 
 Wo will inaugurfite such a trade policy as will 
 glTO employmeni to a large number of con- 
 sumers whom you will have to feed and sup- 
 port from your farms, and we will increase 
 your markets not only by stopping foreign 
 produce, but by multiplying tiio number of 
 consumer* of your own farm produce. Under 
 tbia changed policy the condition of the farm- 
 «r aeems to have rapidly improved. The im- 
 portation of American agricultural iarm pro- 
 duce haa diminished, although our home 
 consumption has lucreaaed largely. This 
 ■after haj been discussed by the organ of the 
 third party, in this house, and an attempt has 
 bMn made to show that the National Policy 
 kas been a failure, because there is 
 •till a considerable Importation o( breadstnfl's 
 Into tke country. Well, Mr. Speaker, it is 
 true there has been same considerable im- 
 portation, but my position is this : that un- 
 der oar National Policy we have largely re- 
 duced the importation of American bread- 
 Ituifs, and we Lave also stimulated the Cana- 
 dian fanner to greater activity ; that be has 
 inpplied what has fallen short in importation, 
 k* bas largely increased his experts > 
 
 abroad. The Increased activity which has 
 been given to all bran'.^hns of industry seems 
 to have nffocted as well the farming popula- 
 tion, and they aro able to supply the tliree or 
 four million dollars worth of American farm 
 produce tbrit ui^ed to como in, and we have 
 largely increaBed our exports at)road. Now, 
 Mr. Speaker, in 18 TS tliorn was ont«(red $12.- 
 389.900 worth of Americau brtwdstuffrf; in 
 187G there was impi)rted $i 1, ! 14,00» worth; 
 in 1877, $13,858,0(J8 worth; in 1878, 
 $13,452,000 worth— a total in thoFe four 
 year H of $50,813, 90(» worth. Wo exported 
 S'J'l, 000,009 odd, leaving, as consumed 
 by the people of this coimtry, $26,707,12<» 
 worth, i>r $6,670,000 worth per year. Now, 
 air, under the present policy, without giving 
 the sum for each year, iho total imports for 
 sit year.s, beginning with ' 880, have been 
 $18,784,000, or $3,130,(500 . yi;ar. na against 
 $6,67»>,000 before the Natiorinl Policy was in- 
 augurated. That is, we have imported per 
 year less than one- half as much as was im- 
 ported per year before tiio B(io[)tioa of tlio 
 National Policy. I may state tliat tbe article 
 of Indian corn was mentioned by the organ of 
 the party, and it was shown that it has been 
 taxed to tho largo amount of 7^ cent.s per 
 bushel. Well, Mr. ISoeaker, it in true that 
 under this policy wo did lax Indian corn 7^ 
 cents a l)ushel, but a large ptjrtiju of the 
 imports of Indian corti was for the purpoKC of 
 being distilled into wtii.skey. In 1880 there 
 were 739,000 bushels imported ; 1881, 
 754,000 buHhcls and so on ; in the 
 six years there were 5,368,123 bushels 
 imported, paying 7J cenis per buKbel duty, 
 ail fur tl^e purpose of being dimillrd into 
 whiskey, and not for the purpose of lieiog 
 consumed as breadPtulT^, Put I have (diown 
 by statistics that wo have Khut out by our 
 policy more than $3,000,000 woith a year of 
 breadstuCfa eoming in from the United States, 
 and I will make a comparison showiHg the 
 exports of farm produce. In 1875 wo shipped 
 agiicultural exports, including breadkitufTs 
 and prod'icts of aijimals, to the value of i.vet 
 $2,9958,000; 187*3, $40,000,000 ; 1877,128,- 
 000,000; 1878, $32,000,000 ; 1879, tJ3,UU0,- 
 000; or a toUl of $:f.6,580.000 in ih(ine 
 years. Since the Intr.oductiou of the National 
 Policy the exports have been as follows:, — 
 1«81,'$42.000,'I00; 1 882, S.")!, 000,000 ; 1893, 
 $43,000,000; 1884, $35, OUO, 000; 1835, $39,- 
 000,000— $212,000,000 in all. Fr.jm this 
 sum deduct $1G5, 000,000 exports in 
 the same number of years wit'jout 
 the National Policy, and you tiave 
 left an inereased export of $4t;,858,833 
 or $9,371,7»)f5 a year. Our farmers hive ex- 
 portud annually, on an average, upwards of 
 $9,000,000 in excess of what thtry did befi)re, 
 and they hum supplied the homo market to 
 the value of $3,500,000 of American produce 
 si. <- ut, makiug over $13,000,000 more than 
 
18 
 
 waa exported under the policy of hon. gentle- 
 men opposite. 
 
 Mr. Charlton— Wliero !« the liomo maiket. 
 Mr. MoL&x-AN—Why, I have just explained 
 to the hon. gentleman, as well an I could.that 
 we have giyen the homo nmiket to Caradiari 
 farmers to the extent of $3,.545,000a year; 
 and that ia supposing there had been no in- 
 crease of population during that period. But 
 it will not bo proteuflod that there has not 
 been more supplied witii the increase of popu- 
 lation in the manufacturiniir diatricts since 
 1881, and that the home market has not been 
 larger then it was before, the $3,545,000 in 
 addition. A word more in regard to the 
 home market. In the tirst six months 
 of this year, the importation of farm 
 produce and provisions for the use 
 of the people has declined over $2,000,000 
 as compa ed with the first six months of last 
 year. So the houHo will see that year by year 
 our farmers have been steadily taking posses- 
 sion of the home market as well as increasing 
 their exports abroad, and the encouragement 
 afforded them has given them greater activity 
 and life, and they do not now "leave the 
 oxen idle in the stall and the ploughshare 
 rusting in the field." The hon. gentleman 
 opposite does not seem to be quite patisfied 
 that our farmers have been benefited by the 
 operation of our policy ; and when an hon. 
 gentleman, who was elected for his iutelli- 
 gence as a represeutati vo of the people, claims 
 not to see in what way the fan, rs have been 
 benefited, I think there may poasihly be farm- 
 ers who have not yet seen clearly in what 
 way they have been benefited. 
 Some hon. members — Hear, h&w. 
 Mr. MoLelan — Some hon. members say 
 «« hear, hear." I euppose you could put it 
 more clearly to the farmers. The hou. gen- 
 tleman knows Toronto, a city with a popula- 
 tion ot 100,000. Suppose yon could draw a 
 cordon of American Custom house oiiicers 
 round that cfty and say to the farmers of 
 Ontario : You shall not take iu a pound 
 of butter or any agricultural produce to 
 feed that population of 100,000, but they 
 shall be fed entirely by American farmers. If 
 you could do that in practice it would bring 
 the matter home to Ontario farmers, and I 
 think the hon. gentleman himself would not 
 ask how they were at present benefited, and 
 the liirmers would see how they had lest by 
 such a transaction, by being shutout from 
 supplying the city. Suppose hon. gentlemen 
 opposite should come into power and should 
 bring their policy into operation, and all the 
 men who are now employed in manufactures, 
 and who were not employed in 1878 under 
 their policy, by which great importations of 
 8laught€re<l goods were sent in from the 
 United States, had to shut up and 
 go to the United States. My predeoesors 
 brought down last; year a Bt.itement showing 
 
 under the National j'olicy, factories giving 
 employment to 34,000 hands. The proba- 
 bilities are thai under s»ich a change of policy 
 as I have indicated almost the whole of those 
 people woTild be driven out of the country 
 into the United States to manufacture the 
 goods that might be wanted by the people 
 who would be left behind. 
 
 Mr. Landbkkin — More than that number 
 have been <iiiven out. 
 
 Mr. McLklan — The hon f,'ontleman says 
 that mote than that number have been driven 
 out. But he would not object to driving out 
 
 34,000 more, 
 
 Mr. Landkrkin — I would. 
 Mr. McLblan — and all the people connect- 
 ed with them. Let mo carry the supposition 
 further. Suppose that after those people had 
 been in the linited States for a time manu- 
 facturing for the Canadian people, 
 being fed by American farmers and 
 paying tribute to the American Gov- 
 ernment, they should say ; The products 
 of our toil go over to Canada ; wo are scatter- 
 ed in different towns ; suppose we unite, 
 cross the line and establish ourselves at one 
 central point, and take over the men who 
 build our houses, and our lawyers, doctors, 
 clergy, wives and children and servants, and 
 make a population of over 100,000 and locate 
 at some place where not a pound of butter or 
 an article from •% Canadiau farmer will come, 
 but American farmers will have free entry by 
 market waggon and railway to come and go 
 and supply us with everything we need, and 
 the Canadian farmer shall have no intercourse 
 with us. The hon. gentleman liimself and 
 all the Canadian farmers would see the effect 
 of that operation in practice, and I think they 
 would say : It is better that we Bhould have 
 a policy that will keep those mechanics 
 and their families here and enable 
 our own farmers to supply them with their 
 farm products, and thus find a market for 
 them at home. Mr. Speaker, I have referred, 
 in reply to ths hon. gentleman, to the in- 
 crease in the number of wage-earners and to 
 the fact that Sir Leonard Tilley had statistics 
 prepared showing the increase in the number 
 of artisans employed in the various factories 
 of this country from 1878 up to the com- 
 mencement of 1884. 1 have not had the op- 
 portunity of continuing that operation, but 
 in our trade returns there is sufficient evi- 
 dence to show that the increase in the num- 
 ber of wage-earners and artisans employed 
 has been enormous from 1878 up to the pre- 
 sent time. We have imported more than 
 $10,000,000 worth of machinery since 1878. 
 That machinery was not imported to stand 
 idle. That machinery is now giving employ- 
 ment to large numbers of people in various 
 portions of the country. We have imported 
 large quantities of the raw materials to which 
 I Lave already referred — cotton, wool, 
 
 ei 
 ai 
 si 
 b 
 o 
 
 a 
 d 
 d 
 t 
 1 
 
 V 
 
 t 
 t 
 f 
 t 
 i 
 
 that by statiaticB there bad been established ^ i tiide*, plglron, and every tbiog that 
 
19 
 
 «nterH in the manufacture of gnoda, 
 and all thoHu thiu(KH prove conclu* 
 sivelv to me that there is nn increased num- 
 ber of people employed, an incrnasud num)>er 
 of wage-oaruers who are receiving good 
 wages, and who will buable to purchaHe goods 
 and contribute to the revenues of the countiry 
 during the year. In ovi'rythlng there is evi- 
 dence of increased a !tivity. I vend to the house 
 to-night the increa'^tiin the post office service. 
 Hon. gentleme-n opposite claimed that we 
 would kill out the shipping trade of the coun- 
 try, but there has bee n a steady increase in 
 the ooHsHng and foreign trade of this country 
 over since this policy was introduced, all 
 tending to show that tho country is progro.'^s- 
 ing favorably. 
 
 Mr. MiTOHBLL — Sailing vessels ? 
 
 Mr, MoLblan — I will read the figures to 
 the hon. gentleman. The coasting trade in 
 1884-85 was 15,944,422 tons, the foreign trade 
 in ships was 7,fi44,t;i5 tons. 
 
 Mr. Mitchell — Sftiling vessels ? 
 
 Mr. MoLblan — Sailing vessels and steam- 
 ers. 
 
 Mr. MiTC ill — I am asking about sailing 
 vessels. 
 
 Mr. McLeljln— 1 have not separated them. 
 I have not learned yet that a steamer cannot 
 carry goods and passengers. I think that the 
 steamers carry just as many goods in propor- 
 tion to their spare tonnage as sailing vessels 
 and deliver them quicker, and I was taking 
 them both together. The foreign tonnage 
 was 7,644,615. 
 
 Mr. Mitchkll — Foreign tonnage ? 
 
 Mr. McLkla.s — The coasting and foreign 
 trade together was 23,589,000 tons. In 1878- 
 79 the coasting trade was 12,066,683 tons ; 
 the foreign trade 6,000,000 tons, or a total of 
 over 18,000.000 tons. There is an increase 
 in the six years of 5,433,804 tons or an aver- 
 age of 905,634 tons a year. 
 
 Mr Mitchkll — Foreign tonnage, but not 
 Canadian ; that is the point. 
 
 Mr. MoIiELAN— I am not speaking of 
 whether we owned more or less tonnage 
 
 Mr. Mitchell — Ah I That is what I want 
 to know. 
 
 Mr. MoLblan — I am speaking of this 
 point : that the people of this country, the 
 trade of this country and the wants of this 
 country, employed a larger tonnage by 5,433,- 
 804 tons than they did in 1878. 
 
 Mr. Mitchell — Yes, but owned by foreign- 
 ers ; there is the point. 
 
 An hon. member — It makes no diflference 
 
 Mr. Mitchell — It makes a great deal of 
 difference. 
 
 Mr. McLblan — I am not aware that 
 foreigners own a very large proportion of the 
 shipping that is engaged in the 
 coasting trade of this country. I am 
 not aware of it, and if the hon. gentleman 
 v*ill nhow it to me, I will accept the 
 figures he will give, but it does not alter the 
 
 position I have taken, that the trade of the 
 country ntquires 5,433,804 tons, and employs 
 that tonnage more than it did in 1878-79. 
 Then if we come down to railways we find 
 that In 1878-79 we nad 6.664 mUes of rail- 
 ways iu operation; their tr:%in mileage was 
 19,000,000 ; the total piswengers carried, 
 0,444,000 ; the number of tons of freight car- 
 ried, 7,833,000. Now, sir, in 1885, we have 
 10,149 miles of railway in operation; we 
 have a total train mileage of 30,623,000 ; the 
 total uumV>er of pas-songers carried, 9,672,- 
 599, and the total number of tons of freight 
 ciriied, 14,679,919, or an increase in all 
 thoMo items of over 50 per cent., all tending 
 to show that there is an increased trade, an 
 incroa^ed activity in business throughout the 
 countr''. Therefore, sir, I think that I am 
 right in the position I take, that the business 
 of the country is more active and better. 
 Then wo have the fact as shown by our bank 
 returns that we have $16,000,000 
 more of bank and Dominion notes 
 in circulation than there were 
 in 1878; that the depoaits in tha chartered 
 banks in 1885 wore $106,000,000; in 1878, 
 $72,000,000; or an incd'ease of $34,000,000. 
 We have thc> fact that the saviuKS banks de- 
 posits have increased from $8,49 7,000 to 
 :J35,280,000 uo to last night, an increase in 
 deposits of $26, 783, 000. But, Mr. Speaker, 
 we have an increased number of men en- 
 gaged in bufiinoss, and wo have also an Jn- 
 creaned number engaged in business without 
 frilling as they did in 1873. The number of 
 traders, in 1885, was 70,043, with failures 
 amounting to $8,743,000. la 1878 we had 
 56,347 traders, with failures amounting to 
 $20,875,000. There is an increas" of 13,'69a 
 in the number of people engaged in trade 
 throughout the country, and there is a de- 
 crease of $18, 132, 000 in the amonnt of the 
 failnves, and I take these facts as the best m- 
 dication of the condition of the country, that 
 larger numbers are engaged in trade, and 
 engaged without loss to themselves and to 
 the Country at large. The returns for 
 the first period of this year show still more 
 favorably in respect to thd failures. The re- 
 turn, as given for the fii>st si.x weeks of 188t>, 
 was 192 failuies, as agiiust 235 in the same 
 period of 1885 and 2!? 7 in 1884; so that, 
 comparing with 1878, the decrease is very 
 great in the number, and the decrease in the 
 amount of liabilities is somethin*? enormous. 
 I was very deeply impressed with the ex- 
 planation which the hon. member for Both- 
 well (Mr. Mills) gave a year or two ago of 
 the causes of failures from 1874 to 1878. He 
 put the whole case in a nutshell. He said 
 that "the merchants failed for want of cus- 
 tomers;" and I suppose there wore no cus- 
 tomers because there was no employment for 
 the people, and no money among the people 
 to enable them to purchase the merchants' 
 i goods. Therefore the merchant stood idle at 
 
20 
 
 hi« counter, waiting In rain for cnitomorH 
 tbat (lid not C(<mi! — that could not como — 
 beeaino ihwy Lad uo money and no fimploy- 
 DiMLit ; and thnroforu ruin and bitukiuptcy 
 fiill «pon t\\» mercliant, and the official 
 aiiiiiiHtiae walkwl tbo land like a pcbti- 
 l«Ui:o ot nooudny. Hir, I start from one 
 poiiii — idleiiHfls of tho people, want of em- 
 ploy mint, MO factories in operation, at.d 
 conSM<]iientIy no cuHtoinerN for the merchant 
 — and Uiuru fo low a bankrnut merchant and 
 an fmpty tfeaKury. I start from the other 
 point — emidoyment for the people, money 
 lor tbii people, money taktn by the people to 
 tho moichant, tho merchant buiiy, and a full 
 treawury, You start from one point, and you 
 raach the one conclusion absolutely ; yon 
 start from the other point, and you reach the 
 other coucli .oon just as certainly. When 
 you have employment tor the people, you 
 hare not only a buty merchant and a full 
 treasury, but you hare above all a contented 
 and happy people. Daniel Webster, the 
 graat American statesman, speaking upon this 
 point, after he Imd been converted to pro- 
 tective views, said : — 
 
 "Th« Interestsof every laboring community 
 rcquiro ilivers\iy of ( cfupai Ion, pursuits tiiul 
 ObJi-cVsof Iniluatvy. Tlie niori? that divers ty 
 Is imililplled or exioiided, the better. To, 
 dlvpr-'try oini)l ymeul Is to enlianco wagos. j 
 And, xir, Itike tliln t'reat truth, place H, on the 
 title p j;e of eve y hook of political eon 'my 
 In'eridid for wxe, nut It on C'ery farmer's 
 almuuac ; let It bo the heading of every 
 col; mn In eveiy mechHiilc's n)aga.zlno. Pro 
 claim it every wli.jro anil make It » proverb, 
 that where there Is wi». k for Uio hands o( men 
 there will bo work for their loelh. Where 
 there Istniployiiient there will he bread. It la 
 a irrekt hle.sKinjs lo the poor to huve cheap 
 food ; but grtaier than that, prior to that, and 
 Of Mill hlyher value, Is the blo«stpg»ir oeiug 
 able Lo buy foiul liy honeht and resi cetablo e?.- 
 
 Filoynient. Einploynj. ut feeds, clothes and 
 UKtrnniii; eninloyiiient gives strength, 
 60l>rlety and inor.-lri. Constant em.'loya ent 
 and well p !d labor produce, In a country like 
 ours, tene-iU pro perl t y, i outer t atidch'ertul- 
 ne.ss. ')huh li.pdy 1 ave we t^een the country, 
 thus happy may we long continue to see li." 
 
 Tho hon. member for South Huron (Sir 
 Richard C'artwrigbt), Borne time tiuring this 
 session, told ns that the National Policy had 
 been a failure, because there had been largo 
 importations in excess of tho exports ; ainl 
 he gave iij^nres by whiclt ho ma<ie it appe!\r 
 that there had been an excess of $101, 762,- 
 000 wor.h of imports over exports. Now, 
 sir, let me refer to this for a moment. 
 Wo were in yery pocnliar circumstances. 
 Manitoba, the Northwest and British 
 Columbia imported largely of foreign goods, 
 having no facilities for procuring goods of 
 domestic manufacture. If tho hon. gentle- 
 man will compare the imports into Manitoba, 
 the Northwest and Biitish Columbia from 
 1874 to 187'J with tho imports from 1830 to 
 1885, he will find that they imported in the 
 latter period $45,(103,000 worth of foreign 
 goods. If he will take that from our eicet*! 
 of Imports over exports for the Mine perwjd, 
 
 he will find that it leaves bat f 50, 169,000, 
 or (;),359,H3:< a year. Ue will also tind that 
 the imports into those districts from 1874 to 
 1879 wero only a 18,000,000, jfhich deducted 
 from tho excess of imports over exports, will 
 leave $86,000,000; or in that period there 
 was an excess of impoits over exports, exclu- 
 Hire of Mttintoba, the Northwest ani British 
 Columbia of $17,242,000 a year, while 
 from 1880 to 1885 there was only 
 an excess of $9,369,000 a year. 
 But the hon. gentleman will also 
 And, on examination of the trade and revenue 
 rt'turuH, that a large proportion of the excess 
 of imports over exports in the older provinces 
 was raw material for manufacture, or nrticles 
 that should come in free. For instance, 
 tnere was an increasa in 1885 over 1878 in 
 hides and horns of $563,000, in cotton and 
 wool ©f $1,500,000, in settlors' effects of 
 $746,000, in coin and bullion of $2,250,000, 
 and so on, making an excess of imports over 
 exports in those articles, which are free, of 
 $8,6.30,000 ; so tiiat the whole excess of im- 
 ports over exports in the older provinces is 
 disposed of in that way. Mr. Speaker, I 
 have detained the bouse at greater length 
 than I iutendcii, or should have done, and I 
 must apologize for It. But an bon. gentle- 
 man opposite has said that wo have driven 
 more than $40,000 people out of tho country, 
 and I suppose we shall bear the same thing 
 from the hon. gentleman who is about *" .td- 
 dress the house on the opposite side. It is 
 true, sir, wo have not had in tbo past that 
 great increase of numbers that they have 
 had in the United States. In tho United 
 States, long previous to the taking of the 
 last census, they.had a policy of protection 
 to home industry. They had a policy »f 
 giving their people employment and high 
 wag<*s, a policy which drew immigrants to 
 the United States from all parts of the world. 
 i Tbey harl also opened for settlement large 
 I tracts cf prairie country, and the two policies 
 i comhiHcd helped to iucreape the population 
 I of llio United States at a greater rate than 
 j the increase in t' e Dominion. But, Sir, if 
 we take the American census of 1830 and the 
 ; Canadian census of 1831, and if we select a 
 ' number of tho older States, which offer a fair 
 j ground for comparison with the Dominion of 
 ! Canac a, we will find wo have held our own 
 I very well. Of course, if you go into the 
 ; newer States, with attractions of new territory 
 ' and prairie soil, you will find a much 
 I larger perccHtago of increase ; but 
 I what I want is to make a comparison 
 1 with tho older States. Counecti- 
 ■ cnt, which bad 537,000 inhabitants in 1871, 
 I bad 622,683 in 1881. Connecticut, Maine, 
 I Mu?sachunettR, New Hampshire, Vermont, 
 Dakota— I put in Dakota as a set-off to Mani- 
 toba—comparing those states with Prince 
 Edward Island, No*ra Scotia, New Brans- 
 wick, Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba and British 
 
21 
 
 im- 
 
 Oohimblii, I find that the American gtates ia 
 crea^^ed 16.06 and tho Domiiiiou of Ciinada, 
 increawed 17.03 per cent. In pnpniation, hc- 
 cordit>g to the lunt consus, ho tlmt when we 
 make a proper comparison between the Do- 
 minion and tho older and more Kuttlcd por- 
 tions of tho Unitwl Statcfl, wo Und wo have 
 moro than he'd our own. Now, the com- 
 plaint haH bwn mado tiial tho National 
 Polloy haa not done iti< duty, befauso timea 
 have not been m> brisk as they wore In 1882- 
 83. But, M 1 Haid before. If w« compare tho 
 position of trafle in Canada with the poHifion 
 of other countrioM— in tho United tStales, and 
 Great Britain, for instance, we will find that 
 our position Ih better thanthoirw, and wo can 
 Rather Irom thiH, that but for the National 
 Policy ruin and bankruptcy would have 
 been upou us. It Is in timoH when thoro is 
 great depression in surrounding countries, 
 when there are over-production and slaughter 
 in prices of goods in those countries, that we 
 iind the protective policy dcBirable and 
 adv-mtugeouH, and it has proTed itnelfhere 
 highly beneficial ia protecting us from the 
 onblaughtB which would have been made 
 upou us by foreign manufactures. I proposed 
 to deal with this question move fully, but I 
 have occupied so lar(<e a share of tho public 
 time that I cannot ^o into it as fully aa I 
 would wish. I want, howevev, to give one 
 instance to show how the National Policy in 
 affecting tho wacre-eainer in this country at 
 present. All that is required for the pro- 
 duction of cheap goods in this country, ia that 
 there shall oo a market for those good,and tho 
 larger tho market tho cbeapev taey will be. 
 Our people are as active and as intelligent as 
 any others, and when thty are forced 
 abroad, as they have been, they make as 
 good artisans, with a little experience and 
 training, as are to be found in tho world. 
 All that they require to be tit to manufac- 
 ture everything required in this country, and 
 to manufacture an cheaply as is manufactured 
 in the United States or elsewhere, is that 
 they shall havd some training, and this they 
 will obtain by our furnishing them with a 
 market for their goods. Now, the manu- 
 facturer or capitalist seeks a fair return for his 
 investment ; he looks into the chances exist- 
 ing for placing the. products of his invest- 
 ment ; and tho smaller the output he has the 
 larger percentage ho mutt put upon that out- 
 put in order to meet tho interest upon his 
 capital and tho depreciation of his plant. 
 There is a very familiar illustration of this. 
 You take a blast furnace which requires $,50,- 
 000 to meet tho interest upon tho capital in- 
 vested in it and the depreciation of the 
 plant. If the output of that furnace be 
 15,000 tons of pig iron, of course there must 
 be $2 a ton put upon the iron in order 
 to pay the interest and the deprecia- 
 tion «f the plant. If you incrtase tho output 
 
 per ton to pay theio ohargcs ; If you increuA 
 
 it to 30,000 tons, you only want $1 a ton 
 upon it to pay a dividend, and you nan Bell 
 the pig iron $1 a ton cheaper. If you run 
 the output up to 60,000 tons, all you want is 
 50 cents a ton, and you have $30,000 raised, 
 and tho pig iron is $1 .''lO cheaper than it 
 would be with only I. 'i, 000 tons of output. 
 Tlie same principle holds good in all the 
 manufactures in which we are engaged. Tho 
 percentage, which must bo put upon every 
 yard of cloth which comes from the loom, 
 dependH upon tho output, In order to meet 
 tiae interest upon the capital and the dopre- 
 elation of the plant. You raiist have one of 
 two things. You must olthtir have n large 
 market and a large output or you must have 
 a low rato of wafv's, and that means a low 
 scale of living and a small expenditure 
 for the benefit of the farmer. Moreover, 
 you cannot for any considerable length of 
 time keep men employed at a low rate of 
 wages while across the border, in the United 
 States, there are larger wages paid and at- 
 tractions offered to draw them to that 
 country. The intention of the National 
 Policy is that wo shall give a large market to 
 our own manufacturers. We have not so 
 large a market, of course, as they have in the 
 Unitwl States, but wo can give a proportior- 
 ato market, one-tenth or one-twelfth in pro- 
 jiortion to the population of tho other side. 
 David Wells, the American apostle of free 
 tiade, has been often Quoted iu the hoHse, 
 arid he says ; — 
 
 " Waees are labor's share of product, and In 
 every healthy l)Uhiliies.siire ultimately paid out 
 of prfMluct. No employer of liibor can con- 
 ilnueior a. 'y ({rent leiislh of lime to pay high 
 wagi s uulel^8 his product Is Iuikp, If u |g not, 
 aud heatlempiH, It is only Hquo'tlou ol time 
 when lij . Hffiilrs will bo w<iunil up tiy the 
 Hhtrlff. On the other hand. If a high rate of 
 waKOS Is perinanoutly paid In Hiiy Imlusfry 
 and In any country, It Is In Itself prot>f posl- 
 Ive tJiat the product of labor la large, that the 
 laborer Is entitled to a, generous share of It, 
 and that tho employer can afford to gly* it 
 him." 
 
 That is what we have been striving to do in 
 this country, and it is what we are accom- 
 plishing when we are giving a larger market 
 to our own manufacturers, and wo have the 
 rohult that a larger, a moro generous wage is 
 beiuK paid to the omployoes than previous to 
 the introduction of this policy. I have not 
 gathered any statistics, except from ono com- 
 pany, the Canada Cotton Manui'actur'ng com- 
 pany, of Cornwall, audi have a comparison 
 in regard to that company between 1878 and 
 IBS.*), with which I wish to tiouhle the bouso 
 in order to show the result of tho National 
 Policy in increasing the rate of wages, the 
 number of hands, and not the price of goods. 
 In 1878, in the nix months from July to De- 
 cember, there were 407 hands em- 
 ployed in that factory, who received 
 (47,557 in wages, the daily amount paid 
 
 to 20,000 tons, then it only requires ^LSO'i ii'siug $305, and the average paid to ea(>h 
 
09 
 
 huid per iUy 76 contH. Tlmen «)eined to 
 
 grow worsp, and in thu thrw' monlhfi from j 
 October to Dicemlior the amount paid to 
 each hand rnu down to "2 eimtH; and In tlio 
 month of Docembur it run down to G!» ctutiJ. 
 Now I como to J885, undtr tiio operation of 
 the National Policy, and I tlnd tliat, t'nr tho 
 Biz monthH ending Dec* lulier, there wore 040 
 hands employed, reciiviuic J'Jlil'Uln wagoH; 
 the daily amount paid being 1581, or an 
 average per day of 91 cents to each hand, 
 autaluHt 76 ceutn in 1878. for the three 
 montlifl from October to December, there 
 were 670 handi employed— the number in- 
 creaneH as we go on — and the average amotmt 
 paid was 'Xi centH. In tho laHt month of the 
 year, G72 Imndri were employed, and tlio aver- 
 age amount paid to each waa DO contH. For 
 the six monthB, tho percentage of handH be- 
 tweon 1878 and 1885 f-hows an Increase of 57 
 percent., tho wageH paid an inert awe of i*l 
 per cent., and tlio amount of daily wages to 
 each hand au increaoe of 21 per cent. In- 
 tlie three monthR there was an an increase of 
 66 1-6 per cent, in the number of hands em- 
 ployed, of 98 7-10 per cent, in the amount ot 
 wages paid, and of 28 per cent, in the amount 
 paid to each hand. In the lant month of the 
 year the increase in average wages was 30 per 
 cent, over that paid in 1878. So you will see 
 from the figurus given that the people em- 
 ployed by thirt company are receiving a 
 greater wage per day than they were in 1878. 
 But the hon. uentleman nays we have a duty 
 of 30 per cent. 
 
 Mr. MiTCHKij, — I said 35 per cent. 
 
 Mr. McLklan — Well, 3.") per cent. In 1878 
 the price of Htandard sheeting, weighing 2 85 
 yardw per lb., cost 10 cents, less 7J per cent, 
 discount, or 26 aC cents per lb., with the 
 average price of cotton 10^ cents. In 1886 
 that same sheeting cost 6A cents per yard 
 net, or 18 52 cents per lb,,atiiiinHt 26 .".6 cents 
 per lb. in IS 78. 
 
 Mr. MiTCHKiii, — What did the raw cotton 
 cost? 
 
 Mr. McLklan — It cost l(t|- cents in 1878, 
 and in 1886 it cost 10 56 cents per lb. This 
 shows that, though the hon. gentleman says 
 there is a duty of 35 per cent., contiumers are 
 getting their shoetings now for 42J per cent, 
 less than thev pa'd in 1878, wliile the raw 
 cotton is not quite 3 per cent, cheaper. That 
 is the result of tho operations in that fHciory, 
 and I am satisfied that It will be shown to 
 be the result all over this country, that men 
 are being employed, that thty nro receiving 
 greater wages, and that the output of the fac- 
 tories is given at less cost than it was in 
 ' 1878, when people had a narrow mark'jt and 
 could not produce as cheaply as now when 
 they have a larger ma ket. This is what we 
 are doing with the National Policy and that 
 is what we intended; we are giving em- 
 ployment to the people and at bettor 
 wages, bj «ax protection. It is not tJit> 
 
 cotton in Its raw state that we want to 
 protect, it is not the ore in the nioua- 
 tain, nor coal iu the mine ; it is not the clay 
 in thn potter'H IiaiidM thai we want to pro- 
 tect ; it ia the hands that are forming and 
 faHhioninf.r the clay ; it is tho men who dig the 
 ore from the mine, the men who smelt It in 
 the furna('e and the factory and form and 
 fashion It into tho shtipu wo require to use ; 
 it is the men and wr)meu who are maidpulat. 
 inj.' the warp and tho woof in tho cotton fac- 
 tories, — it is thesH whom we want to protect, 
 and it Is these whom wo have protected, as I 
 have shown, and lor whom wo have secured a 
 higher rate of wagew. Therefore, tho Na- 
 tional Policy is no failure, from any point of 
 view you look at it. I have detained the 
 house too long 
 
 Some hon. members — Go on. 
 
 Mr. McLklan— No, I tnust close, in justice 
 to my hon. friend opposite. 1 have gone over 
 the Public Accounts, and I have shown the 
 position of affairs in 1885. I have shown 
 that, taking the year by itself and apart from 
 tho troubles in tho Northwest, we stand very 
 well. I think hon. gentlemen will admit 
 that wo stand v«'ry well, for they never liked 
 the idea of having a largo surplus. I have 
 shown that iu 1886 we shall not be so very 
 bud, and that there is a juHtificatlon for us for 
 putting that extraordinary e.^peuditure which 
 we have had in connection with the North- 
 west to capital acceunt, because during the 
 years tiiat we have administered the Govein- 
 ment of tho country, wo have jiaid from rev- 
 enue a large amount into capital account. It 
 is not tho custom with other countries in the 
 world, which have been engaged in wars, to 
 place all the expenditure of those wars on 
 revenue immediately. Tho United Htates 
 did not, they could not, they left it to capital 
 n( loiiut, and it was years before they com- 
 menced the reduction of their indebtedness. 
 It was fourteen years before they returned to 
 specie payment.t. I have shown, I think, 
 conclusively, that there is no great cause for 
 alarm in tho amount of burden that is 
 imposed upon this country for interest at 
 present. I iiave shown that there was, up to 
 1885, a less rate of interest per capita upon 
 this country than exi.sted In 1878, and only 
 23 cents at the most moro than there was in 
 1807, when tho people were poorer and had 
 not the ability to pay. I have shown that, 
 taking out the extraonlinary expenditures and 
 those that are not taxation, tho increased 
 expenditure from 1867 to 1885 has been com- 
 panUivcly trifling, a little over $2,000,000. 
 So, sir, I do not anticipate that we shall hear 
 very much more of the increased taxation 
 from $13,000,000 up to $34,000,000 or $35,- 
 000,000 in eighteen years. Sir, they have 
 lirst 10 convince the man who has engaged in 
 the busincFs and the duties in life, and who is 
 (xpending $35 for an outfit and a suit, that 
 he is doing wrong and otigbt to go back to the 
 
23 
 
 S18 suit tbat ho hud eighteen yean ai^n when 
 h* WM a boy. Thoy will havu to conyiuco 
 the merchant who is doiii^ a buNiiicHH 
 of milliouR thut hu Ih iudaiiKfi of bunkniptiy 
 and ruin bocauHo hi-t cxpiinricH a.e InrBir, liiH 
 staff of clerkH Ih hirgcr Ihuu tiny wore wlu';i 
 be had a little coni'T whoji, and rh Carlylo 
 Hftid : "Tbo led IieiriiiKHand ilio pipoH pmu- 
 ftally crobHC'd in the window" Sir, before 
 thejr can convince tho peopio nf this couulty 
 that we ar<t doinjj wrona; in our expetidlture, 
 they will bavo to porwuado tho stockholdorH 
 of the Bank of Uontieal to ri<>ll out If tht.>y 
 wish to avoid bankruptcy arjil niiu, bi-cauHo 
 the Bank of Montroul, wlieri it Ktiirtcd, only 
 expended jEIOO or jCSOu a year, wliortjafl they 
 now have oHtablifhed agcucies nil ovtr the 
 Dominion, and In New York and Loudon, 
 and are txpcudlDg an euorinous Himi yearly 
 in keoplug np thoMo aKencicH. Thoy will 
 have to perHUrtdo theHtookboIdorH of tho Bank 
 of Montreal that they are in danyror of ruin 
 and loss before thoy can pcrtsnado the poople 
 of thiH country that they are in danger, bonause 
 there has beim necessarily an incp ased ex- 
 penditure owing to the iucroHSed aria of thin 
 country. Sir, there have b^en necesMary ex- 
 penditures, because wo have liad laigo nn- 
 dertakings which were necessary io our very 
 exlBtenoo, and we havo had a great struggle 
 to accomplish this purpose; but, Kir, wm have 
 succeeded, and tho liabilities nrising out of 
 that have been placed upon us earlier thim 
 we anticipated. We entered iiito an eugago- 
 ment to couHtruct tho Canadiwi Pacitic jnil- 
 way and iiavo it completed in J 891 ; but ch- 
 oorostancea made it desirable, in the interest 
 of the country, f6»r this house to batten the 
 completion of that great w jrk Well, it is 
 almost completed, and, as I liave shown the 
 house, the burdens for interest are not unduly 
 pressing upon this country. We have come 
 out of our operations with far loss burden per 
 head than pressed upon the United States 
 when they came out of their struggle. Thoy 
 are now reduciutj their iD'li'btedness. Wo also 
 iiave accomplistiod our purpopo, and will 
 take the opportunity of retrieving and im- 
 proviag onr position. And, sir, we s'lall do 
 that; we shall rest from our labors, 
 and shall give our attention to reduc- 
 ing the iudebtededne.-js of our country, 
 «ud without unduly taxing the peo- 
 ple. 8ir, I spoke of the Canadian Pacific 
 railvray. They havo accomplished a groat 
 work, and we have assisted them. 
 
 An hon. member — No. 
 
 Mr. MoLklan— Mr. Speaker, I remember 
 the discussion in tho house, when it was said 
 that we were giving them everythiug, and 1 
 think the ochoes of some of those speakers 
 still linger in the corners of tho ceiliBg, when 
 it was declared that a'l we were doing for 
 them was a gift, and that the loan of $35,- 
 000,000 which we made to them would never 
 be repaid to the country. It was only last 
 
 year when they cnme here and uikfd tbat we 
 should allow tbeia to i-^flu<> bonds to the 
 amoiuit ot $;t5, 000,000 and take $.iO.OOO,000 
 ofthiHassefiinly fji !j»Jit,<)00,000ifoiir indebt- 
 cdn(!Hs, and juit the (dlier !{!iO,OOO.oi)0 upon 
 lands in thu Northwest, looking to them only 
 for it, atid that wu should loan tliem $5,000,- 
 000 more. At that time the gentleman who 
 says "no," perhaps, or some one beside him, 
 said it was only another gift of $5,000,000 to 
 tho Canadian I'acitic railway, and that it 
 would never be returned. Sjr, we did, iu the 
 interest of tho country, adopt that proposi- 
 tion, and $'J,ooo,000 was left upon lauds, 
 and they sold their honds and paid us the 
 $5,000,000. Th"yhave gone on and nearly 
 brought to completion that great work. But, 
 sir, wo know that there aro a great many 
 things to he done in order to jnake that work 
 a complete snocess. The terminii of that 
 road hav»> been spoken of as being 
 at Liverpool and Hotig Kong, and 
 it is desirable, in the interest of this 
 country, that they should bo en- 
 abled to make that comiuuuicatioa be- 
 tween Liverpool and the Eastern countries. 
 They say to us : It is ditHcult for us to do it 
 because nearly all the money wo have raised 
 from that ^ITi.OOO.OOO is exhausted iu our 
 undertaking ; you now hold a mortgage upon 
 all our lands, and wo ure unable to raise any 
 money upon them. It will bo known to 
 hon. gentlemen tbat last year great pressure 
 was brought to bear upon rnemlieis of the 
 house tliat wo HhouUl give up that lien upon 
 tho whole f)f the land.s and take a certain por- 
 tion of the lands, leaving the rest free for the 
 company to raise money upon. They come 
 again and ask us to do the same thiag. They 
 represent that a great expend! turo is neces- 
 sary to make tlie proper connections east and 
 west and efficiently eijuit) the road, and they 
 ask us to lake a certain portion of that land 
 as imy^i""*' f'Ji' 'he lien wo hold upon the 
 laud, and upon tho land only, and leave them 
 to deal with the rest for tlieir own benefit. 
 Well, Mr Speaker, wo have considored that 
 matter. \Ve havo weighed it carefully, 
 and wc* havo thought, haviag aided 
 aud assisted the Canadian Pacific rail- 
 way company to accomplish so much, to ob- 
 tain ft standing aud footing in the money 
 markets of the world, and to be rocogniaed 
 as a great and powerful company that has 
 ac'Jom|)lished a work ot Imperial importance, 
 that it can well stand alone, can ivell work 
 otit its own destiny aud accomplish its own 
 purposes. And we have thought it to be in 
 tho interests of that company and in the in- 
 terests of the country at largo if we were to 
 remove the lien that extends over tho whole 
 of the Canadian Pacitic railway lands and 
 take a certain portion which we consider of 
 the value of $9,000,000. We have said to 
 the Canadian Pacific Railway company : 
 ( ntlemen, this is the position of tbingf. 
 
u 
 
 Now that yon are strong and powerful, able 
 to walk alone, now that you have 
 BhowQ to the world the importance 
 of this great undertaking, let uh close 
 all acttouutfl, let as make fa nil and com- 
 plete setilement. You take your laada and 
 raix-o what mooeiK 70a require to meet your 
 purpooes and we will titku a portion of those 
 UiivB and hold thum and dispose of them for 
 the purpose ot mu< ting the balance of the 
 loan after payhig $20,000,000 iu cash. And, 
 Mr. Upeaaer, I am able to announce to the 
 house that arraagemenia have been made by 
 which the company ag4^ee to accomplish that 
 pur):)08cand to pay us $30,000,000 in cash, 
 one-half in Mhv and one.balf on or before Ist 
 July, and enable us to close all accounts with 
 the (janadian PaciQc Railway company and 
 receive our $20,000,000 that we may provide 
 for our floating indebtedness and have spare 
 cash in the treasury and not be v 'der the ne- 
 cessity of increasing our Ijabililies. We were 
 told time and again that the money and aid we 
 were giving to that company were gifts, 
 and would prove an entire loss to the coun- 
 try. But we believed otherwise, and the re- 
 sult has proved we were right in placing 
 faith in that work and in those who manajiced 
 it. When we receive that mon(^y we i-haU 
 be *ble to pay off all that sum of $14,000,000 
 of floating debt, and be able to turn our at- 
 tention to , the older provinces. The house 
 and the couutry know that a large portion of 
 tho time and attention of the Qovernment 
 has been given to the Northwest and the 
 Canadian Pacific railway, perhaps to the ne- 
 glect ot some of the older provinces, and we 
 think it is d^nirable in the interesta of the 
 olde» provinces that the attention of the 
 Govemment should be given to them, and that 
 the Canadian Pacific railway now being on 
 its feet should work out its own destiny. We 
 have advanced so far, and at the earliest pos- 
 sible day I shall submit^for the approval of 
 
 the house a proposition to carry oat" t^U qb- 
 dertaking and enable us to settle all ■eooanti 
 with the Canadian Pacific Railway 
 company, and to receire the mon^ 
 that is represented by the $20,000,- 
 000 of bonds which the GoTernment 
 hold. I think, taking the whole position, wa 
 have cause for congratulation. We have 
 cause for congratnlation that we bava done ■• 
 much and not imposed more hardens apon 
 this country, and that we hare gone throa((ta 
 with our part of the undertaking and not saf- 
 fared more inconvenience than we hare done, 
 Sir, we all deeply regret the condition of affairs 
 during the past season ; we deeply regret the 
 outbreak in the Northwest; we regret the 
 loss of life that was occasioned by it ; bat U 
 we are to believe the words of hem. gentlemeo 
 opposite even that has done us good. The 
 house will remember, and will remember with 
 admiration, the speech which the hon. gen- 
 tleman opposite made in the absence of his 
 leader — the speech which he made when he 
 came at from the shadow of partyism and 
 spoke as a man and a Canadian. He said : 
 
 " B' r, people respect those whom they flnfl to 
 be able toflKhtfor their own land and to de- 
 fend their own country. Our conduct baa been 
 watched and scrutinized on both sides cftne 
 Atlantic, and there Is no doubt whatever In 
 my mlofl— Isay It frankly— that we stand be- 
 fore the nations of the world In a better posi- 
 tion to-day than we did three or four moutlu 
 ago on that single score." 
 
 Even that occurrence, the hon. gentleman 
 says, has done us good. Yes, we came back 
 from that fight>lamenting the death of those 
 who fell in the defence of their country ; bat 
 we came back without a permanent 
 wound or disfigurement, or without beinc 
 dismembered; we came back wearing no 
 empty sleeve, but with both our gocd arms 
 tried and strengthened and skill^l to carry 
 forward the banner of oar country and to 
 work out a grand destiny for oonMlTes among 
 the nations of th« earth. 
 
eooanta 
 Kail way 
 
 monfijr 
 30,000,- 
 trnmant 
 Uon, wa 
 e hare 
 donoM 
 ta upon 
 tbroogb 
 Qot aaf- 
 'e done, 
 if affair! 
 gret the 
 (ret th« 
 ; batil 
 itl«meD 
 I. Th« 
 >er with 
 >n. gea- 
 
 of hit 
 rhen he 
 smand 
 said :^ 
 
 find to 
 d tode- 
 as been 
 
 i C( ttl© 
 
 Bver In 
 wadbe- 
 srpoei- 
 nouthi 
 
 tleman 
 le back 
 ! thoBe 
 y; bnt 
 naoent 
 ; beiof 
 Dg no 
 i arms 
 > carrf 
 and to 
 
 UBOBg