C^ / >- / / SPEECH ON THE BUDGET BY THE HON. J. G. ROBERTSON, TREASURER OF THE PROVINCE OF QUEBEC, DELIVERED IN THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY, QUEBEC, 6th December, 1875. Heporleil for .Uorniii;/ Clnnniclc. 41/n^ <^XJEBEC- VILLE DE MONTREAL COLLECTION GAGNON K 31247 2) Forme lOKO — ]-Ht ,■:;;.',- ;'V;..^i;'i.^;,V SPEECH ON THE BUDGET BY THE HON. J. G. ROBERTSON, TREASURER OF THE PROVINCE OF QUEBEC, PELIVERKD IN THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY, QUEBEC, Ctii Deckmeer, 1S7o. Ih.porlcil fai' Mtmihif/ Chronicle, QTJEBEC. ■. ^ ^, ; '«♦ -; ■•:'•• O. * 1 if- ^ i 1; , 5 . i _J J. . ^ IT *((M v.Vi A if,,--. '--.H-, ^v. ■• .' '• ■■■ ' t - .- I - THE BUDGET SPEECH. Hon. Treasurer Eobertson — Mr. Speaker, — as I men- tioned on Friday that I would be prepared to bring down the estimates to- day, if the House would have no objection I will now go on with them. (Hoar, hear.) "■; Hon. Mr. Oulmet— Wait until after six o'clock. Hon. Mr. Robertson — Xo ; I would rather go on now. I am sorry to say that I do not feel well, and if I do not go on now perhaps I will not be able to go on at all this evening. (Hear, hear.) I will do the best I can, and I hope that the hon. members will make excuses for my state of health at this particular time. In the meantimej I would present the message of the Lieut.-Govemor, signed by him- self. The Speaker, the meml)crs of the House rising, read the following message : — ■ : - " The Lieut. -Governor transmits to the Legislative As- sembly the estimates of the Province of Quebec for the current year, supplementary and for the financial year ending the 30th of June, 1877, in conformity with the provisions of the 54th section of the British North American Act of 1867, and recommends these estimates to the Legislative Assembly, " Government Hoi.se, " Quebec, Deceraber 2, 1875." Hon. Mr. Robertson — Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to move, seconded by Mr. Malhiot, thai you do now leave the Chair, and that the House form itself into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker, in preHeiitiiig this motion before the House, that you do leave ^he Chair, and that the House resolve itself into a Committee ol' Supply, I do it, feeling my own inability to •' bring down the Budget," as it is commonly called, in such a way as 1 would like. AVhile the present- ation of the estimates heretofore consisted merely in stating our usual revenue and our usual expenditure, Mr. Speaker, it was comparatively easy to present these before the House, and but little ditference of opinion existed as to the supplies asked for, only in so far as to see that our revenue was not exceeded and that the appropriations asked for were legitimate and applied to the ordinary business of the country. Tho case is now far different ; we have incurred a debt in Ejigland — small, it is ti-ue — for railway i)urpose.s, with the object of assisting in the construction of these important lines of communication from the interior tow^ards our great centres, and in order to facilitate the settlement of our wild lands, circumstances which no one could forsee or control have, however, arisen, necessitating a much larger expenditure for some of the more important railways than vs'as originally contemplated, in order to secure the accomplishment of the desired result, or we must abandon our railway policy in part, and postpone to some indefinite period the construction of the railways already begun. To meet all the demands for railway aid is simply imjDossible ; to provide funds sufficient to aid in building all the pro- jected railways is beyond the power of this or any G-overn- ment (hear, hear), unless the i^eople of the Province are lirepared to submit to direct taxation for that purpose. (Hear, hear — Mr. Loranger). To provide for aiding effectually those railways which the necessities of the country require and demand deserves the best consideration of the Government and of this House. I have studied the question, Mr: Speaker, with a good deal of care ; I have endeavored to look at the railway question from a Pro- vincial standpoint rather than from a local point of view^ and I am afraid many will be dissatisfied with the decision at which tho Govcrnmont has anivod. IT thi3 people of the Province are ready to make sacrilices to obtain rail* ways ; if they are prepared to assume duties and to take burdens on themselves hitherto performed and borne by the Government, and iithey are prepared, as I say, to make sacrifices in order to ensure completion of the railways, not only would it be easy for tliis Government but for any Government to meet tho demands o[ the country in this regard ; and if they i-eally are ready to indebt themselves with the full knowledge of what this means, and fully determined to pay for railways indirectly or directly, if necessary, then I acknowledge we might go farther than I feel would be prudent, or than the people of the Province would endorse with their present knowledge and expressed opinions, as far as I know, on railway matters. I shall have occasion, l)efore 1 close, to enter into the railway question at some length, and shall endeavor to give the fullest explanation of the views of the Government and their policy on this important subject, and give such in- 'formation as Avill enable hon. members to act intelligently on the subject ; and I hope the whole raihvay policy will be dealt with in a fair, liberal spirit, irrespective of any politicaL feelings wdiicli any of us may have, for I consider that this question is one out of the common range of sub- jects coming ])efore this House, and therefore I hope that members of this House will di»al with the question in a statesmanlike mauner, and in such a way as will promote the interests of the Province which we have so much at heart. (Hear, hear.) I hope that w^e shall deal with the matter in a spirit altogether aside from local influences and party ties, and that the result ofour deliberations will show that the Quebec Legislature can and does deal with important national questions in a broad, statesmanlike manner, and not in a petty, local, sectional spirit. I now, Mr. Speaker, p/oceed to deal with what is proverbially an exceedingly dry subject, and which requires far more ability than I possess to make it at all interesting — that is, i"* . • ■ ' • .' ■ - , ..''*' *'' . ■ • ' ' ■ ' ■ ' the mutter of figures and details of accounts. 1 iuttMid to 1^0 into a short summary of the receipts and expenditure of the past year, in order to give information to members of 1 his House, especially as we have a j^ood many new mem- bers not particularly acquainted with our sy.stem of keepin*^ the Public Accounts, — and also vrith the view of affording information to the public, so that they may have an opportunity in a short, succinct form of seeing what the revenues of this Province amount to, and hoAV the ex- penditure is made, and in order that they may be able to Ibrm an intelligent opinion regarding tho linancial con- dition of the Province. The Public Accounts, containing statements of our receipts and expenditure for the past fiscal year, have been belbre the House for some time. I trust they will be found satisfactory. In order not to mix our usual revenue' and expendiaire Avith the proceeds of the loan in England for railway purposes and the payments made to various Railway Companies, there will be found a statement in the Public Accounts of the amounts paid to these Companies np to the SOth June last. I find upon comparing the estimated receipts, as given to the House on January the 13th, 1874, for the past year, that the actual receipts were some 5^280,000 more than estimated, exclusive of railway moneys and the Tanneries land deposit, and that the actual expenditure somewhat exceeded the estimates for the same period, unforeseen circumstances requiring a little more expenditure. I will now proceed. Mr. Speaker, to give a short statement of receipts and expenditure for the past year. The Public Accounts contain details of what I am about to give, an'd I do it, as I said before, for the purpose of giving in as short a form as I can such in- formation to the country as will enable it to judge of the state of our finances, and that lion, members may see at a glance what revenue has been received and how it was disposed of, the details of which will be found in the Public Accounts. We have received from the Dominion Govern- ment $1,014,712.12 Crown Lands revenue ; net revenue in cash, >i5-187,0T0.5.'). This amount i;s loss than my ustiinalos ])y some $73,000, owing to the .stugnation in tho lumbor trade, Avhich at the time lh(^ ostiniato was presented couid not 1)0 i'oicseen. (Ili^ar, liear — Mr. McGanvran.) I should mention, liowcver, that on the oOtli of June wo had on hand in Bills Receivalde, not then niatur«>d or pnid, the amount ors;282,G81.07, which could not well bo collecled ^:. ^vitllout still further injurin;12,263 ; repairs of Court Houses and Jails, $2,900 ; Gasp j Court House and Jail fence, $720 ; to complete Femal Jail in Montreal, §52,000. There was something likJ $30,000 odd which went into the Treasury on the 80th ol June, and in order to complete the contract it is necessaryj to re-vote that portion of the amount necessary to completi the contract, making up the sum of 852,000, which tli' House will be asked to concur in. Tanneries land suii expenses, $6,000 ; total, $97,883. I now come to the pro| posed expenditure for the year beginning the 1st of Jul;,] next. Interest on the public debt and exp^nsos of nianagr ment, $193,070.49; sinking fund on .€800,000 sterling, 9^ per cent., $38,933.33. Then comss legislation. Legis- lative Council — Indemnity to members and mileage, $15,064 ; salaries and contingent expenses, including prim- ings binding, &c., $36,443 ; Legislative Asiicmbly — Speakers salary, $2,400 ; indemnity to members and mileage, $41,000 salaries and contingent expenses, including printing, bind ing, &c., $61,300 ; expenses of elections, $5,000 ; Parli.v mentary library, $3,000 ; Clerk of the Crown in Chancery salary and contingencies, $800 ; printing, binding and dis tributing the Laws, $5,500; Law clerk, salary and contiu geucies, $4,000, making the total legislation amount to $10i 15 7. The next item is for civil government, public dopAit- ents, salaries and contini^encies, $147,900. Hon. members ill find the details of this service in the pamphlet accom- nying tho Estimates, andin the different departments, the laries attached to each office, the gross sum amounting to hat I have stated, $149,908. We next come to the adminis- ation of Justice, $375,95-1, which will be found, I think, on Lc last page of the pamphlet referred to. This item is very rge indeed. It was supposed that the appointment ol" district Magistrates would have reduced this item, but the ost of justice still keeps up. Included in this sum, how- ver, are several items which in other Provinces of the )ominion fall on the localitioswherejustice is administered, mt in this Province the whole cost is paid out of the public Treasury, wdiich by right should be borne by the respective* Fudicial Districts in which the expense occurs. I had oped that the appointment of these officers would make a bry material difl'ercnce in the administration of justice, specially in this respect, but I am bound to say that I have been very much disappointed in the result. Whether it is ecause crime has increased, or whether it is because the unishment of crime is more complete, it is certain that a arger expenditure than lieretofore is necessary. At all events, we find that this item concerning administering usticc increases in amount every year, without even taking nto calculation the expenses of District Magistrates. We ave frequently seen, Mr. Speaker, a comparison made )etween the Province of Quebec and other Provinces with egard to the administration of Justice, and almost on every ccasion against the Province of Quebec, but lion, members vill recollect that in Ontario and New Brunswick and ther Provinces a largo amount of money is expended ivhich does not appear in their Public Accounts at all, and ivhich is not paid out of the public Treasury (hear, hear) ; r instance, cho building of Court Houses and G-aols ; I hink there ir appropriation of a sum of ii^5,000 for that urpose, but the maintenance of the gaols and the furnish- ing of tlie necessary appliances for gaols in Ontario, comeJ out of local taxation ; they come out of the county fund auJ consequently do not appear in the statement of the Treasure! (hear, hear) ; and it should be borne in mind that all thesj expenses comes out of the Treasury at Quebec, while id other Provinces they come from local taxation, and I aiJ rather inclined to the opinion that the small amount whici is now paid out of the public Treasury fcr this purposJ might with very great advantage be put on the sevcraj Judicial Districts, as, in the first place, it would cost then! loss than it costs us for like objects, and in the next place Avhere local expiMiditure is required for local improvemeivJ ;; 0»dy, 1 hold that local taxation should be i^aid in a lari>c ^- : .. amount than has been hitherto paid (hear, hear), I feoj 1 ' satisfied that a thorough examination into the working o| ■. »v, our present system, will lead to the cutting down ;; Provincial expenditure. AVith respect to the next item—] -' * refer to that of Police, which costs or will cost i|6C,000- there is no mistake about this item ; one of two things miisj happen, either local taxation towards the maintenance oj '\ the Provincial Police, must be increased (hear, hear), orth.j Provincial Police must be disbanded (hear, hear,) or wi ',::, must throw the expenses of police, on the different localitid ^:r that need them (hear, hear — Mr. Ogilvie). This questioi ivv V'^ is now under the consideration of the Government, audi is a very serious question whether it would not be bettc for the Government to have a select body of men ant detectives, say 15 or 20, under iis charge, and paid by the Government, and to leave Cities to procure their own polict protection and pay for it. (Hear, hear.) This must im mediately be done, or else those localities which have thi benefit of the services of the Provincial police must pav more for them than they have paid hitherto, lleformatorie; I place at $45,000 ; prison inspection at |3,700, making the total of justice, police, reformatories and inspection amouut to $490,654, We next come to education — superioi education, including the usual grant to the High Schooh %1 ill Quebec and Montreal, and coinpansation to Romaii Catholic institutions, $78,410 ; Common Schools, the same as last year, $155,000. , >,.,.' A Voice— N increase? The Hon. Treasurer — I shall be greatly delighted, Mr. Speaker, when the funds of the Province will justify a larger increase in favor of these Common Schools. (Hear, hear.) I hold that no expenditure is made to better advantage than in support of this system, especially in poor localities, in poor back w^oods settlements in this Province, in order to give them assistance, so that each child in the country will, at all events, have an opportunity of learning the rudiments of instruction to assist them in getting a livelihood. (Hear, hear.) Schools in poor municipalities, $8,000 ; normal schools, $46,000 ; salaries of school in- spectors, $24,000 ; books for prizes — an increase of $1,000 — $3,500; journals of education, $2,400; superannuated teachers' fund, $6,000; schools for the deaf and dumb, $12,000; total education, $335,910. With regard to superannuated teachers, I wish I could see my vv^ay a little clearer in order to give a larger sum for this purpose ; the temuneration of our teachers throughout the country is exceedingly shabby (hear, hear,) exceedingly shabby indeed ; a common laborer ■vVill actually receive more, not occasion- ally, but actually, in almost every case, than our common school teachers do throughout our country, and 1 do hope to see my way to be able to give a larger amount in favor of these persons who are unable to teach after having taught, as I am aware, for ten, fifteen Or twenty years^ but ■who do not receive from this fund more than $25 or $30 per annUm. It is a shame not to give more, and I am in hopes that the Government will be able to do something more towards these very excellent schools, and more in favor of these who, perhaps, do more than any other class in the cour.try, with the exception of the clergy, in moulding the habits of our young people, and in enabling them more 8 18 efficiently to perform the duties which it will be incumbent on them to perform in aCter life. (Hear, hear.) Literary and scientific institutions — I need not enumerate these ; they consist of grants to medical schools, natural, historical and literary eocieties, &c., with an amount of $6,250 ; council of arts and manufactures, $10,000 ; making for education, literary and scientific institutions, &c., the sum of $352,100. It will be noticed that the grant to the council of arts and manufactures is increased $2,500 more than last year's grant ; representations have been made to the Government and from my own personal knowledge I can state that perhaps no money that Government disburses gives a better return than this amount granted to the Council of arts and manufactures, because the expenditure is made for a class of persons that have no opportunity of attending school, on account of being obliged to labor, and at the same time they can get such instructions as they require — what may be called a technical education, in these schools, what, moreover, they can get nowhere else, and therefore I have much pleasure in adding a little to this fund, $2,500 over last year. I think that those gentlemen who have taken this matter in hand should have the credit and honor of their efforts in order to promote technical education among an important class of our community. i\ griculture. Immigration and Colonization — Agricultural Societies, $50,000 ; Board of Agriculture, $4,000 ; Agricul- tural Schools, $2,400 ; Immigration and repatriation, $45,000; Colonization roads, first class, $40,000; second and third classes, $8,000 ; and towards the establishment of the manufacture of beet root sugar, $5,000 ; total Agriculture, Immigration and Colonization, $154,400. It will bo observ^ed that we have diminished the sum to be expended on Colonization roads in this way. (Hear, hear.) "We cannot afford to build Colonization roads and build railways through these counties where w^e expend public money in aid of railways. It strikes me it would be better to give money in paying interest of the debt we owe for railways 10 than give it for common colonization roads. Of course, those counties which have no railway facilities will be con- sidered in the distribution of money for roads, more, >erhaps, than hitherto. Public works and buildinurs, rents, msuranccs, and repairs of public buildings generally, U4,076 ; insptiction and .surveys, ii^4,000 ; public dopart- lents, to build, on account of re-Yote, $100,000, bridge icross the Ottawa river to Calumet Island, provided the 'ownship furnish the balance sufficient to build it, re-vote, 1 1,000; purchase of the "Workman House in Montreal, 110,000. AVith respect to the two items for public buildings ind the purchase of the house referred to in Montreal, it lay be observed that, although included in the expenditure >f the year, they should not be considered as properly [chargeable to the revenue of the year ; they are parmanent investments, and should be charged to capital account and |be taken from the surplus in the Treasury, and not out of the annual revenues. (Hear, hear.) I put them here, Ibecause it is necessary to have them voted, but at thj same [time it ought to be distinctly understood that where we lake a permanent investment, the Treasury should not be charged with the deficit ; when making an investment Jwhich is permanent, it should not come out of the annual revenue. (Hear, hear.) The Workman House is used now for the Board of License Commissioners, lor the Council of Lrts and Manufactures, and the House will actually cost us less than the rental of the building. We have now opened m investment on capital account, and hereafter it will be tonvenient to keep such permanent expenditure separate from mere annual expenditure, as it is unreasonable, if any large expendititre is made in any one year, thereby re- lucing the balance in the Treasury, by investing the loney in permanent works, to charge the Treasury, as has ^een done, with a deficit on the year's transactions. These imounts, together making $116,000, in fact reduce our expenditure out of revenue for the year by so much, as the imonnt will be taken out of the surplus of cash in the 20 Treasury. The next items of expenditures are rents, in- surance and repairs of Court Houses and Gaols, $22,027 ; Bonaventure Court House and Gaol, $2,500 ; Court Houses and Gaols, new Districts, for safes, $6,000 ; total public works and buildings, $196,203. I next come to the item of charities, lunatic asylums, Beauport, Montreal and Halifax, $192,506. This unfortunately increases every year. I was very much struck with the remarks of the Treasurer of Ontario, which he made in his Budget Speech, to this effect, t^at there were over one hundred lunatics now in the prison of Toronto, the Lunatic Asylum being full, and that he was obliged to bring down a vote for ui additional amount of money to build lunatic asylums to accommodate 400 patients more. I do not quite understand why the increase in the number of lunatics has been so marked during the last two or three years ; we have en- deavored to keep down the number of patients by keeping out persons who were merely idiotic and not dang-^rovij to the public, but, nevertheless, this unfortunate ci s of ijidividuals is increasing not only in this Province but in all our sister Provinces, and therefore provision must be made for their maintenance. Belmont Retreat (inebriate asylum), $700 ; Marine and Emigrant Hospital, $2,067.67 ; Lying-in Hospital, care of Ladies of the Good Shepherd, $1,333.33; miscellaneous charities, per list, $40,510; re» iormatory schools, $8,140. I think that amount for reformatory schools has been increased, compared with last year, but I trust that the reasons actuating the Government will be comprehended by the House. Lidustrial, $7,000 ; total charaties, $252,856; miscellaneous, generally, $20,000 ; collection, management and other charges on revenue, municipalities C. S. L. C, cap. 110, sec. 7, $5,000 ; registra- tion service, Crown Lands Department, $50,000 ; surveys, $24,000 ; general expenditure of Crown Lands Department, including Jesuits' estates, Clergy lands, Crown, Dominion, Seigniory of Lauson, woods and forests, etc., $63,550 ; Official Gazette, $14,200 ; licenses and stamps, $4,000 ; total charges Bon re vonue, $160,750; making the total amount proposed lio be expended during the next fiscal year, voted and to be Ivoted, ^2,171,433.82. For special warrants, $40,404.49. Perhaps the House will now, Mr. Speaker, as it is a matter which has created some little talk in th^ country, permit me to refer in a very few words to the matter of THE JACQUES CARTIER BANK. Daring the examination into the tanneries land affair before the Committee of the House, I iscertained, much to my surprise, that the deposit of $.50,000 by Mr. Middlemis.s in the Bank to relieve the mortgage given as security for the title to the Leduc property being perfect, was not made in cash, but by an unacceiited cheque on the Bank of Montreal ; while I had taken the precaution to obtain a deposit for cash in favor of the Government, to be with- drawn only on the regular affixed cheques of the department, I supposed that tlie cash had actually been placed in the bank ; when I found it was otherwise I made up my mind to make enquiry ihto the affairs of the Bank, in order to see ^vhether I was justified in allowing our deposits to remain in an institution which seemed to conduct their affairs in an irregular manner. "When thei last deposit was made, the 17th of September, 1874, (exclusive of judicial deposits,) there was no Bank in the Province w^hich stood better than the Jacques Cartier Bank did, and from time to time sums amounting to $165,000, were drawn from the Bank on special deposits, between September and the beginning of June last. It will be in the recollection of many members of this House that the session was prorogued on Tuesday, the 23rd of February last. Owing to an accumulation of business, I was unable to leave Quebec for Sherbrooke till the following Saturday night. On the following Tuesday morning, the 2nd of March, I went to Montreal, and had an iateriiew with the then Cashier of the Bank, who stated that the affairs of the Bank were in a perfectly sound condition, and that although the financial pressure at that 22 time required the Bank to use all the available funds at its command to carry their customers along with their business, very soon the Bank would be in a i)osition to pay our deposits without injuring the credit of the Bank. I con- sulted with one of the best financial men in the country the same day. wKo advised me, in the interests of the Province, to remain perfectly quiet, as our deposit w^as perfectly safe, and not to press the Bank for payment, as it might embarrass not only the Bank Jacques Cartier but, in the unsettled and unsatisfactory state of the money market, produce a financial crisis and seriously affect and damage other institutions, and produce distrust and suspicion generally in the country, the results of which it was im- possible to calculate. I again saw Mr. Cotte, the Cashier, and stated to him that w'hile I had every disposition to assist the Bank, and foresaw the disastrous effect a collapse in the Bank would cause at that particularly critical time in commercial and financial circles, I w^as by no means satisfied with the way he was conducting the business of the Bank, and alluded to the Middlemiss deposit as first exciting suspicions of his management.* He assured me again that everything was right, but I said I insisted on one of three things— 1st, that I should personally examine into the state of the Bank for myself and ascertain its true standing ; 2nd, that I should obtain personal security from the Directors of the Bank, that on delaying drawing cheques on the Bank for 60 days, excepting always the judicial deposit cheques, which the Bank should pay on presentation, they would guarantee the Government cheques should be ■ paid on presentation after the 60 days ; or 3rd, that the Bank should at once pay over the deposits to me on behalf t of the Government. Mr. Cotte said he had consulted with I part of the Directors, and wished for a few days' time to obtain a full meeting of the Board, and I should then get an answer what would be done. On the 6th of March I received a personal guarfntee for our deposits from the Directors of the Bank jointly and severally, as proposed by 28 le. I took advice as to the sufficiency of the guarantee^ Jand was assured by those who know that the Bank itself rould, doubtless, be able to pay all depositors, but with the guarantee referred to the security for the Government ras undoubted I felt the responsibility to be great in [doing anything to throw suspicion on our banking* in- stitutions, and believe I acted in the interests of the I Government, in the interests of the community generally, in adopting the course I did at the time referred to. In the beginning of June, I directed some small cheques to be drawn on the Jacques Cartier Bank, and went into Montreal to inquire into the affairs of the Bank, in order to allow the guarantee I held to lapse for want of attention. I arrived in Montreal on the very day the doors of the Bank were closed, and after considerable difficulty obtained a renewal of the personal guarantees of the Directors for the payment of the Government deposits. It was known by this time that the affairs of the Bank had been mismanaged ; it was known that the Government had a large deposit in the Bank, and it was considered of immense importance to the French Canadian portion of the community who had business with that Bank that an effort should be made to resuscitate the Bank and not to allow it to go into liqui* dation, in the interest, not only of the stockholders, but of depositors, bill holders, and of the community generallyi The law allows of three months for a Rank in which to ; resume business, otherwise it must lose its charter and wind up its aliairs. The Government being the larg^est I depositor, it was stated that if the Government would give I some delay as to its deposits, other depositors would do the isame, the other Banks also agreeing to the same coursCi and I an effort would be made to secure the subscription of new i stock sufficient to enable the Bank to go on. The Govern* iment agreed to grant further delay to the Bank for payment |of our deposits, and obtaining from the Directors a renewal [of their indiTidual guarantee, without waiver of any rights [the GoveniTnent, as such, had against the Bank. I am in Hopes that by the means adopted, the Bank will be able to resume business before a long time. I think the Govern- ment acted prudently in the course adopted, and doubtless a different procedure would have entailed lasting damage to other institutions and the public generally. In the settle- ment of the amount due the contractor for the Montreal, Ottawa and "Western Railway, who owes the Bank a con- siderable sum, care will be taken that at least a part of ihei amount owing to him be kept in liquidation of his debt to the Bank, and of the debt of the Bank to the Government. 7 / : \ THE RAILWAY POLICY. ,; :.US, J 1 now come, Mr. Speaker, to the most important part of my statement. The other part is merely formal, and I am aware it has been exceedingly dry ; and I am sorry that a| violent headache prev^ents me doing justice to 'he matter as I would like to dc ; I will, however, go on with the | statement o^ the raihvay policy to the best of my ability. I feel I have trespassed very much longer on the patience of the House than I should, as I have now occupied their attention a very long time ; but at the same time, w^hile feeling this, it is my duty to give such information to the House as to enable hon. members to form a clear and I definite opinion, at all event.s, of the intentions of the Government. The assistance we propose to grant to certain railway companies very largely exceeds what was ever supposed would be the case when the system of grant- ing subsidies to railways was first initiated in this House. (Hear, hear.) At that time it was generally supposed that cheap railways, with wooden rails, requiring but little grading, could be built at a cost not exceeding $5,000 or $6,000 per mile, and would answ^er very w^ell indeed in opening up the lands of our country for settlement. It was supposed that the Provincial grant of three per cent, per annum on the estimated cost of .$5, 000 a mile for twenty years would answer the purpose, and prove advantagCQUs to the Province. Permission was given subsequently to 25 he Government to capitalize this subsidy, which might he aid in cash or bonds of the Province. The Quebec ik 3-osford, Richelieu, Drummond and Arthabaska, and Levis & Kennebec — what is now known as the Quebec Central, all these railways were commenced with the view o^heing iConstructed as wooden railways, — that is, railways with Wooden rails — and considerable progress was made in so building the two former. These roads were aided by a subsidy paid by the Government ; the Quebec and Gosford Kailway obtained, I think, from the Government some ^48,000 ; the Richelieu, Drummond and Aithabaska received from the Government, some two years since, something close on $100,000. It was soon found, however, that these wooden railways did not amount to much, and that they were virtually, from various causes, a failure ; that they would not answer the purpose intended, and the further j building of such kind of roads was abandoned. After fthis, additional aid was granted by the Legislature to certain railway companies, bringing the subsidy up to $2,500 per mile in bonds of the Province or their proceeds ; in other cases, a grant of land from the public domain was iven instead of a cash subsidy, as in the case of the Lake t. John, International & Megantic, Bale des Chaleurs and other companies. The grant in aid of railways was further ncreased in relation to certain railways, bringing the amount up to $4,000 per mile in Provincial bonds at par r the proceeds thereof, other railways being left at the rmer grants. Some railway companies had the option of etaining their land grant, or of obtaining instead a cash ubsidy, and several companies availed themselves of this ption, preferring cash to land, while still others preferred ;o keep their land grants. From year to year, since 1869, ressure has been brought to bear upon the Government y hon. members of this House, and by parties outside the ouse, interested in various railway lines, to increase the bsidies in favor of railways having grants in their favor, d to include other new lines of road in the subsidized 26 list, and I am bound to say that the Government has given great ofFence to many of its friends for not complying with such demands. I do not know, Mr. Speaker, what your experience may be with reference to pressure brought to bear upon you by railway men (hear, hear — Hon. Messrs. Malhiot and Oaimet), but I find it entirely useless to discuss a railway subsidy with railway men (hear, hear from both sides of the House) ; every single line of railway that ever was projected and that we have in this Province, in which they are interested, is of the most extreme importance, and of more importance than any other line in the limits of the Province (hear, hear and laughter) ; the interests of the Government depend more, the safety and stability of the Government depend (hear, hear) upon a grant being given to this particular line more than to all the others (laughter) ; the institutions of the country generally, the interests of the Dominion and of the world depend more on a grant to one small railway than in favor of any other railway in the Province. (Hear, hear — Aid. McGauvran, and laughter.) I do not know what your experience is, Mr. Speaker, but I would sooner meet a patent rights man. or a book pedlar, or a lightning-rod professor, or any other sort of man, than a man who has railway on the brain, and who comes to ask me for a subsidy- (Laughter on both sides of the House.) Under these cir- cumstances, and with such pressure brought to bear upon the Government, if tht. Government and this House have heretofore erred, I acknowledge my own error in this regard. (Hear, hear.) "We have given subsidies to too many roads (hear, hear and laughter) ; we ought to have confined our grant to a few of the more important lines, giving them sufficient to have been of real benefit to-day, and not to have distributed our subsidies so freely through- out the country. While, though it is hard indeed to resist applications for such aid, the tendency of the policy has been to induce people in the country to build railroads which they may be unable to finish, I acknowledge my 27 error, Mr. Speaker, in this regard, and I think we have all erred, and I may be as much to blame for the House having erred in this respect as anybody else. The question assumes another aspect to-day ; the Grovernraent of the day and the House have to deal with the railway question, as it now- stands, and I hope that the discussion on this most im- portant subje,ct will be made in a calm, impartial spirit, entirely irrespective of party ties, and in the public interests alone, I trust the decision arrived at will be such as to show a desire on the part of this House to act in a liberal, statesmanlike manner, aside from local interest and local influence. My remarks heretofore have applied more especially to railway projects other than those north of the St. Lawrence and Ottawa Rivers extending from this City to Portage du Fort. I thought that with so many new members in the House, it might be well for them to under- stand the position and claims upon the Province for railway purposes, and I think that a short summary of what has been done by the Legislature hitherto in this relation would perhaps do no harm. One wcrd in beginning, Mr. Speaker, concerning the North Shore Kail way. This scheme has been before the public, if I mistake not, for some twenty years ; in one shape or other it has been talked of from time to time for 25 years, and public attention has been called to the importance of a railway on the north shore of the St. Lawrence, between Quebec and Montreal. A large grant of land was given from the public domain many years ago by the Government of the late Province of Canada towards building this road ; since Confederation the time was extended for the Company, and some years since the grant was renewed ; subsequently this grant was reduced and changed to a subsidy, partly cash and partly lands, in connection with the Montreal Northern Colonization Railway Company. (Hear, hear — Hon. Mr. Malhiot) Some years since the North Shore Railway entered into a contract T^ith the Chicago Contracting Company to build the road ; they failed to raise the money in England, as 28 they expected to do, to prosecute the work, and finally •ssigned the contract to the Hon. Thomas McGreevy, the present contractor, some two years ago, the present con- tractor failed in making satisfactory financial arrangements in England, and the progress of the work was not so rapid as was desirable, owing to the failure ol the sale of the bonds, and finally the company considered it best to relinquish the undertaking, and the GoA'ernment under- tool? to complete the enterprise, subject to the approval of this Legislature. (Hear, hear.) 1 have here a statement prepared with reference to this important road, a statement prepared and furnished to me, but I will not weary the House with it, as it is a mere matter of reference, but it may be of use to hon. members, I will not trouble the House with it in the meantime. Mr, JoLY — I hope it will be printed. The Hon. Treasurer — It will be printed ; I am gciting tired, and I will get through as quickly as I can. " ; THE NORTH SHORE RAILWAY MEMORANDUM. i vr First Act of Incorporation of the North Shore Railway, 16 Vict., Chap. 100, assented to the 22nd of April, 1873.; capital $2,400,000, with power to increase it to $4,000,000. This Act \vas amended by the 18 Vie., cap. 34, and assented to the 18th December, 1854. The St. Maurice Railway (now the Piles Branch) was incorporated by the Act 20 Vic, chap. 129, assented to the 10th of June, 1857 ; grant of .$1,500,000 acres of land ; power granted to unite with the North Shore Railway. The amalgamation took place immediately after the passing of the Act, and the legal title of the so amalgamated companies was the North Shore and St. Maurice Navigation Company. By the Act 22 Vic, chap. 56, assented to the 24th of July, 1858, the name of the Company was changed to the North Shore 29 iailway and St. Maurice Navigation and Land Company. ?he Act 24 Yic, chap. 85, assented to the 18th of May, [861, extends the period fixed for the construction of their rorks. It was in 1365-66 that the friends of the Piles Railway made efforts lo obtain possession, for the sole )enefit of this road, of the lands whhh belonged to the the amalgamated companies. Having failed, they obtained the passing of an Act, assented to on the 15th of August, 1866, to extend the charter of the two companies to the [•t of January, 1872. It was on the 24th of December. [870, that was sanctioned the Act 31 Vic, chap. 21, which ^s still in force, and will not expire until the 1st of May, 1877. The Quebec Railway Aid Act of 1874 also governs this Company. The first contract for the construction of the road was awarded to Mr. Baby in 1853-54 ; work com- |menced notably in the Palais by the construction of a wharf luring the winter of 1857-58. Those works were after- rards abandoned. A new contract was awarded to the !!hicago Contracting Company, and signed on the 5th of fApril, 1872. The works under said contract were in- laugurated the 18th of July of the same year; these works |were closed in the following year, and the Contracting ^'ompany transferred their interests to the Hon. Mr. jMcGreevy on the 4th of January, 1874. The works were then vigorously commenced on the whole line between Quebec and Three Elvers, and carried on with some [activity during the summer of 1871 ; during the winter land summer following, the works languished, and were [finally closed on Nov. 1st, 1872. The Montreal Northern Colonization Railway Company, now known as the [Montreal, Ottawa and "Western Railway, suffered from the |«ame cause as the North Shore ; repeated efforts to negotiate railway bonds failed, caused mainly, in both cases, by the |pfficers and others interested in the Grand Trunk Railway /ompany of Canada. (Hear, hear, and voice — It is too )ad !) The powerful assistance of the London press was )rought into requisition ; sentiments entirely false, or 80 colored so as to give a false impression, were circulated calculated and designed to injure Canada in railway entei prises of every kind. These unfair, I had said dishones representations, made and distributed broadcast in England produced such an impression that capitalists refused to lool even at Canadian railway securities, and the result wa that both the North Shore and the Montreal, Ottawa am Western Railway Companies could not negotiate thei bonds, and were obliged to stop proceeding with thei respective works, and notify the Government of thei inability to go on to a successful termination. Taking inti account the large expenditure made on these roads, th large contributions of the Cities of Quebec and Monireai and also the very handsome contributions from severa other municipalities ; considering the absolute necessity o completing these great highways and attracting as muc as possible the carrying trade of the "West to the sea boar at Montreal and Quebec, by securing a connection wit the Canadian Pacific Railway; looking at the action of tin Quebec Legislature heretofore with respect to ths liber: aid and the great interest manifested in these roads fro time to time, in lands and money granted those railway and the fact that for a great part o^ the year the north shor of the St. Lawrence and Ottawa rivers was shut out froi railwav or water facilities, the Government could do ii less than propose to the Legislature a plan whereby thos railways might bs built, and thus secure the advantage looked to lor the Province from the realization of the schem of a Grand Trunk line connecting with the Pacific Railwaj through an important and flourishing portion of on Province, so that there might be derived benefits whic! have been contemplated, looked forward to and expect from the building of this important line of road, as I said from Quebec to 'Portage du Fort. (Hear, hear — Hon. M Malhiot.) The papers produced before the House, whicl some members have had the opportunity of seeing, am which all will have an opportunity of consulting be for 81 Government has taken action upon the Railway IJill, )W the action taken by these companies, and that of the Srernment in relation to these railways. It is perfectly le, Mr. Speaker, that thess companies would have pr3- red, perhaps, to continue their respective orjaui.-^ations, )vided the Government w^ould have granted additional in the way of increased subsidy, or by guaranteeing interest on the Company's bonds, so as to enable them [dispose of them in the English market, but the Govern- mt objected to such a plan, on the ground that if th.? povince found it necessary to incur increased liabilities in of these undertakings, to secure their completion, the fovince should have the benefit of such expenditure rather lan private companies. (Hear, hear.) While acknow^ledging jie general principle, that as a rule railways had better be lilt by private companies than by the Government, the )vernment considered the case of the lines from Quebec Portage du Fort as an exceptional one ; large assistance id been promised and paid as fast as the progress of the rorks w^ould warrant, and yet there was no prospect of iccess. Both companies had failed to negotiate their )nds in England. The amount of bonds sought to be }ld was very large in proportion to other contributions id to the cash A'^alue of the work, and somehow or other, do not know how, suspicions were excited that there was )o much speculation connected with these railways, and Bval companies in England used these representations and ithers of every possible kind to throw doubts, in the first place as to the necessity of these . roads, and in the next ^lace as to the good faith of the parties engaged in building lem. I had opportunities while in England last summer, [r. Speaker, of meeting these two objc ctions repeatedly, id I have no hesitation in stating that the presentations, Irculated as they were, were exceedingly hard to combat, |id I do not believe that any private company, however fell disposed, if they were obliged to borrow any eon- lerable sum of money in England in the state of public 82 opinion during the last summer and during this winter, could by any possibility have succeeded in negotiating tho bonds. It was thought that the Government undertaking works of such magnitude would convince English capital- ists that this House and the country considered these railways as necessary for the development of the resources of the Province ; that by investing so large a proportion of the cost of the roads, the Government would show that they had confidence in their success and thp c the small amount to be borrowed woul*^' be amply secured to the investors. It is w^ell known that the statements so in- dustriously circulated in England to the eii'ect that the Canadian railways would scarcely pay running expenses, were circulated by parties representing companies which had received from the old Province of Quebec the largo sum of fifteen or sixteen millions in aid of their construction, and on at least one other of these railways a very large amoant was also expended — tln^ Toronto and Cellingwood line. Mr. Speaker, mismanagement has more to do with the non-payment of interest by some of these companies than want of traffic and Canadian winters, about which we hoar so much, and which are so much blamed for th<' non-payment of ijiterest on bonds. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that the Government, by using its credit to a limited extent, can build the line of railway referred to at less cost than any private companies could (hear, hear,) and that by at once taking advantage of the low price of iron and steel, which enter so largely into the cost of railways, it can be demonstrated* beyond a doubt that it is possible to build railways in Canada without jobbing, without enriching contractors and managers of railways and others (hear, hear), enj^aged in the management of railway enterprises, and at such a cost as will ensure its success beyond ques- tion, from the legitimate traffic which the country will furnish, and provide not only security for interest on the bonded debt, but a return to the Government and municipal corporations in the shape of at least a portion of w ^ . ■<- . ■ . K-l' ■, 1 . ' ^ llicir interest on their ro^pcciivc contributions. Tlie amount )f lionds authorized by hiw heretofore to bo issued in lid of the North Shore and "Western Kuilways over and ihove the subsidy grunted by the (!Iovernnient, and the inunicipal aid and private stock was very hiri^'o, and doubt- less had somethinj? to do with caursiiii? tlie I'ailur;' of the legotiations in England. Applyinq- a pro ra!a 'dmonnt to the extension of that line from Aylmer westward to that lUowed for the North Shore and Montreal, Ottawa and \''estern Railway Companies, we find that about $0,000,000 in bonds were authorized and required to linish and t^quip the entire line from Quebec to the connection with the subsidized end of the Pacilic E ail way, now in course of [construction. It was little wonder that advantag-e was [taken of this large issue of bonds by the enemies of the [enterprise to suggest doubt as to the railways paying in- |;terest, at least for a 1a3W years, till the traffic was developed [and tho western connections fully in operation. These [considerations afforded another inducement to the Govern- 'ment to secure ^le building of this line of read, and to show [capitalists not only the i)robabiliiy but the certainty of (interest being paid on the small amount of bonds to be issued, by reducing the amount to a minimum, and allow- ing them to rank first upon the security of the road and [its earnings, the Government being willing to come after- ■ards in connection with municipal corporations. Mr* speaker, in order that the whole question might be brought fairly and squarely before the House ; in order that hon. lembers should be able to see the whole scheme, nof; only from Quebec to Aylmer, formerly under contract, but from Quebec to Portage du Fort, to a junction with the eastern md of the Pacific Railway, the Government decided to include the line from Aylmer westward in the plan to be Submitted to the House. It was considered better to give fche House full information as to the full extent of the pro- »osed liabilities, as stated, rather than divide the scheme ito two sections, bringing down part this year and i^art 5 84 iiext yeAr. It is evident that to make tho lino & sUccoss from Aylmer to Quebec it must be extended westerly, as proposed, and it was thought better that tho House shouhl Kr>e and uiidorstand the intentions of tho Government and the extent of the increased liability tho Provinco would have to assume in tho whole enterprise, than to merely present tho scheme from Quebec to Aylmer, and leave tho House in ij^norance of another demand which must be mado at some future time. The whole scheme of the Government • must stand or fall together, and I feel sure hon. members will see the propriety of being informed of tho cost of the entire line rather than partial information of the intentions of the Government on this important subject. In order better to state the cost of the line from Quebec to Aylmer for the information of the House and the country, the Government have entered into a contract, subject to thf approval of the Legislature with the former contractors — the Hon. Thomas McGreevy for the North Shore, and with Mr. Duncan Macdonald for building the Montreal, Ottawa and Western portion as far as Aylmer, jnclusi^'e of the branches to the Grand Piles and St. JerOme. The Govern- ment thought these gentlemen entitled to the first offer ol' carrying out their respective contracts, provided they were disposed to do ko on reasonable terms. This obviated much dilBculty in settling with them for work partly done and materials furnished and on the line, which being done and furnished at a higher basis than their new contracts, naturally inclined them to think they should bo paid at the old contract jirices if they were not allowed to finish the work. Taking into account that the entire main line of both roads will be laid with steel rails of the first quality, instead of iron, and with respect to the North Shore em- bankment raised in many places very much above what was first contemplated, so as to meet the views of the Government engineers and the report laid before the House last winter ; the line extended to deep water in the harbor of Quebec ; that four of the largest bridges across tho St. 85 ^nn'iB, Batiscun, St. Maurice and Ottawa rivers, art) to be lilt of iron instead of wood, and that bridj^^os on the [ontreal, Ottawa and .Western line, upwards of 50 I'eet »an, are to be built of iron instead of wood, and laid with jol rails, it will bo found that the contract prices lor lese roads are low, and that while withjjrood manaf^'enient the part of the contractors, a fair prolit for the risk and Lpenses may be made still, no one can complain that the Irice is too high, or more than a iirst-class railwiiy can be luilt for. (Hear, hear.) I may mention that the Guvo^-nuient Ibtained the opinion of their own engineess, as to the value |f the work to be done on a cash basis ; that is, so as to jcure a first-class road in the country. It we look at the )st of other first-class roads, wc will find that they cost lore than what it is estimated the proposed lino will lount to. Take the Grand Trunk Railway, Great Western Eailway, the Northern Railway from Toronto to JoUingwopd, the European and North American Railway, le Intercolonial Railway, and it will be i'ound that thesf [ailways cost from $36,000 to $50,000, including rolling Itock. I have a renort from the Government engineer on lose railways, which, on discussion of the resolutions, lay be refen'ed to. I .shall not allude to this report' >ecaiise it will have an opportunity of coming beibre the [ouse afterwards. '^ •.' Mr. .ToLY — "Will that report be printed with the other fcapors ? The Hon. Tiif:ASL'llEK — No, sir; it is something handed me privately by the Goverumei t engineer, for me to lalie use of. It was only received on Saturday night, and shall not be able to make use of it as I would have wished ), but when the discussion comes before the House as to le different contracts. I will give the House such in- >rmation as I received myself. There is another point I irould like to mention, and that is this— that in the gross Imount to be gjvon to these contractors, it is pcTfectly 36 understood that the preliminary expenses of the two com- panies are included — that is, expenses in connection with I the organization of the companies, ^\'ith surveys and office expenses; these are included in the gross. sum mentioned | in their respective contracts, but thi^ I must say, and Ij cannot say less— I want to say it in justice to the parties with whom we negotiated, that is, the individuals whoj compose the North Shore and Montreal, Ottawa and West- ern Railways, submitted to us for preliminary expenses an amonni which was exceedingly moderate indeed, and we I found these gentlemen disposed to accept what tho| Grovernmcnt thought was a fair thing, in order to reimburse them for the amount of money actually spent. There were I other charges not so moderate, and which might with] propriety have been included, but charges which Govern- ment did not yee lit to include in the contract, as possibly some of them miglit n*ot be considered legitimate ; therefon' the amount of preliminary expenses, I think, in connection | with the Montreal, Ottawa and Western Railway, amount- ing to ii?57,000, hns been added to the amount of the contract; j included in the orross sum. A Yoic;: — Does it include payment of stock i ' . The lion. TkeasuiieFl — It includes payment for stock as well as preliminary expenses. Of course the stock oil the private shareholders is to be refunded, and by th?j contract of the Government the riglit is retained to keep ii their hands moneys for that purpose. Previous to obtaining! the estimates of engineers on the value of the work and] materials, I obtained from the engineers of the two roadtJ detailed specillcations of the diQerent kinds of work andj materials required to linish the two lines, inclusive oil stations, building.^, rolling stock, csrc. I set to work amlj l^lacedj from the best information I could find, i^rices to tluJ various kinds and quantities of works and materials whichj enter into the construction of a railway, and in compariiiLj the trross result with that of the engineers. I found inim 8^ neiderably lower than theirs, and the contracts were ilosed at my estimation and figures, and at prices which ill bear comparison with any other first-class road in the onntry. To these schedules I affixed such prices as I ihoug-ht would give fair remuneration to the contractors r this work. I made up estimates of what I thought ach road should cost, taking the North Shore by itself, the ?iles Branch by itself, and taking the Montreal Northern olonization road by itself, and I am bound to say that my igures were considerably less than those given in by the engineers, and after examination of the matter, and con- sultation with the parties who were formerly the contractors, I came to the conclusion that the figures which weri> submitted to them were a fair price for the work done, and to be done. (Hear, hear.) The engineers of the road gave me their opinion as to the difieront kinds of work to b3 done, and upon figuring it up I found that amount to be a certain gross amount, and the contracts wore not entered into by these people upon a given sum per mile, as some I have supposed — that is, of some $30,000 odd, but we reduced the amount down to something like $27,000, or thereabouts, and the amount was arrived at, after placing before each single item in the schedule and specifications a ^given price and fair price for the work and the sum total of these figures, were submitted to the contractors, und which they accepted for the work, as stated before, were considerably less than the estimates given in by the engineers for the work. I mention thif« in order to show that the Government did not go blindly into that matter, but that we went into it after due deliberation and after close calculation to what we supposed the value of the work to be, and not at hazard, giving us the certain amount without oV)taining proper information. As 1 stated before, Mr. Speaker, I am satisfied that when the cjuality of th(3 work is considered and the kind of work these gentlemen ihave bound themselves to furnish to the Government, and ihe amounts of ihejr respective contracts; takiug also into account the fact that they have to repay shareholders amounts of their private stock and reimburse preliminary expenses of companies, I think this House will be satisfied that the Government have made a fair .and equitable arrangement with these gentlemen, and I am sure no one can complain that we have given too much for the work we asked to be done. (Hear, hear — Hon. Mr, Malhiot.) It is amusing, Mr. Speaker, to read the published statements and to hear the remarks of parties as to the cost of the line of road, and of the extent to which the Province will be indebted in carrying out the plan proposed ; one hardly knows which to admire most, the self-conceit which leads some to write and speak on a subject of which they know nothing (laughter), or the utter ignorance displayed as to the cost of railways and of our condition as a Province. I could not help shuddering at the statements put forth by certain parties as to the cost of these railways ; it is fearful to contemplate the awful condition to which the Province will be reduced, according to some, when our debt will be increased by the proposed scheme to $16,000,000 for rail- way purposes ; no possibility of cutting olF expe^diture ; no possible way of increasing our revenue to meet this enormous debt but by direct taxation ; our poor habitants and settlers in the backwoods will first be ruined by direct taxation, and then obliged to llee from the Province to earn a scanty subsistence elsewhere. If parties, Mr. Speaker, before drawing on their imagination to enlighten others, would quietly inform themselves of the facts of the case, and reason from these before attempting to inform othei-s, it might shorten somewhat their labors and be quite as edifying to otheri?, and creditable to thoraseives. One writer I allude to, who did us bad service on the other sid<.> of the water last winter, who had but little confidence in the intelligence of the members of this House, and immense confidence in his own knowledge and capacity to enlighten not only on the railway policy of the Government, but also on financial matters connected with this policy ; ho issued a S9 (fculAr, aiid distributed it to the members of this Hous e lere was no signature attached (laughter) ; these kind of tstructors are exceedingly modest ; indeed, they wish their >inions to be judged on their intrinsic merits, and are^ Traid the weight of their signatures might lead people to- jcept their statements without sufficient examination, ''ell, the writer stated in substance that this Provinct! mid never afford to build a railway; it would be ruined fvond a perad venture as our revenue was so small and Expenditure so large ; the Province had better pause before ivolving itself in utter destruction. Hon. Mr. Ouimet— Take him as Treasurer. Hon. Mr. KoBERTsoN — Y"es, take him as Treasurer; 1 have no objection. Among his other brilliant statements, le said in substance that if the Province had owed ^,000,000 in 1867, we would have been $1,200,000 in debt jfor interest up to this time, and with this fad, as he calls it, Jtaring us in the face, how unwise to contract a debt of ^16,000,000 for railways. (Hear, hear.) Only $1,200,000 in lebt for interest, ii we had owed a debt of $4,000,000 in [867; it's awful to think of it ! The writer had evidently >een examining or trying to examine our public accounts, id succeeded about as well as some honorable members )f this House in their examination, and of the railway [uestion; and then giving figures as to revenue and jxpenditure, concluding by asserting our inability to build railways and pay interest on our debt. For the information >f the writer who took so much pains with the circular referred to, 1 may state wljat every member of this House mows verv well, that in 1867, when we entered into Con* ideration, this Province owed the Dominion Government )intly with Ontario about $11,000,000, the surplus debt of le late Province of Canada over the $02,500,000 assumed >y the Dominion at Confederation We were therefore in (ebt about $5,000,000 in 1807, and paid on interest between ftily the 1st, 1868, the end of the first year after Confedera- 40 tiou, and July the 1st, 1873, the time the Dommioii JParlia- ment assumed the surplus debt mentioned, and relieved thol Provinces of Quebec and Ontario from that liability — thcf sum of $1,163,367.00 standing to our credit -with thi! Dominion, and more than that, wo have expended fovl l)ormanent improvements during the period mentioned about $900,000 ; and more than that still, we had about a million dollar'? surplus in the Treasury. (H(iar, hear.) II the quotations given be taken as a fair samj^le of what reliance should be placed on the statements of the circular referred to, that man is to be pitied who is influenced by it. The man who wrote that circular and placed such ii statement as this before the House, must haA'"e known or ought to have known we had paid over one and a quarter millions since 18G7 on the debt, that we have paid $900,000 f jr permanent works, and that wo had actually one millioii in the Treasury ; still he says that if we then owed four millions we would be $1,200,000 in debt ! (Hear, hear.)| The Government, in proposing to submit to the Legislature nl scheme for the completion of the line of railway from Quebec to Portage du Fort, took into consideration the way.s and means of providing money for the work, and I am pleased to say that the Corporations of Quebec and! Montreal ai once agreed to pay the balance of their sub scriptions to the Government, if the Government saw littol undertake these loads in aid of the work, and other municipalities, it is understood, are willing to follow tho same course, and there will be a provision in the lavv" to be] introduced sanctioning and confirming these grants raad^ by the several municipalities, especially the grants by the cities of Montreal and Quebec. (Hear, hear.) It mayl be recollected that the Legislature of this Province had already granted upwards of 21 millions of dillars cash subsidy towards the rail\v.ays from Quebec to Deep Pivev. in the County of Pontiac, and also granted the lands in block A to the line from Quebec to Ay Imer, and 10,000 acres per mile; 900,000 acres for the line from tho latter 41 point io Deep River, in all something like 2| million a.crc.'^ |»f land besides to aid this enterprise. The cash subsidy formed part of the 6 millions Avhich I stated a year ag-o had been promised in aid of railways by this House. This liiet seems to have been overlooked by some in estimating- the (entire cost of railways at IG millions. It was supposed at the time that the line west of Aylmer would extend to Deep liver, but from information since received it is expected the Ottawa lliver -will be crossed at or near Portage du 'ort. That is, a connection with the subsidized end of the Pacific Railway, which will shorten the distance nearly 40 liles. It is to 1)6 borne in mind that the figures I shall give presently of the cost of the whole line of railroad includes the preliminary expenses conuv-Dcted with the |respective companies, the engineering oflice and othor expenses, the refnnding of payments of stock by privatt^ individuals, and all future engineering expenses except the Government engineers and payments of $10,000 a year towards the expenses of the Commissioner under the law as provided for. The contracts also jirovide for a fair imount of rolling stock, stations, buildings, repair shops, water tanks, &c., suthcient for quite a number of years at least for the accommodation of the line. It will be noticed Iso, Mr. Speaker, that to simplify the question the whole ;ost of the roads is put down, irresi^ective of payments made )n the Progress Estimates, and that credit is taken for the [whole proceeds of the loan in England, so as to simplify the matter for members, and so that they won't have the listinction between what has been paid on one side and Iwhat has been borrowed on the other. I include whole Jost of railways on one side. I include the whole amount lof the loan in England upon the other side, because it makes 10 diflference whether any amount has been paid towards :ork or whether it has not been paid ; it does not affect le standing of the ligures in any way whatever, and it limplifies the question as far as regards members obtaining a IfuU understanding of it ; keeping in mind, therefore, that a 42* the contractors, out of the gross amount mentioned hi their respective contracts, have to i^ay all preliminary expenses and stock payments and future expenses, vritli the exception mentioned. I now come to the details of the scheme, which I trust will bo found sufiiciently clear and satih- factory ; and first I take the North Shore Railway, 15S miles of what is called the main line with steel rails and four of the largest bridges (iron), and the PilesBranch ol' 27 miles, with iron rails and vrooden bridges, steamboat wharf extension to deei^ water, and all included under th«' contract price — $4,732,387. Montreal, Ottawa and Western Ilailway — 123^- miles of main line, with steel rails andiron ]>ridges over 50 feet and branch to St. Jer6me ; 14 miles oi' iron raiki and wooden bridges !^3,G0].G49.9'), Mr. Marchaxd— Is the St. JerOme branch included in the 123 miles? lion. Mr. RoBErtTSOX — Fourteen miles in addition to lli*.' 123, as to the St. Jerome branch. Aylrner to Portage du Fort, estimated 50 miles, — without rolling stock, at^20,00u a mile, i:^l,000,000 ; total $9,334,030.05, and in order thatjio mistake may arise in the amount which the Government proposes to ask this House to appropriate, I have in addition to these suras mentioned added 5 per cent, upon the whole cost of the road ; live per cent, upon $9,334,000 amounts to 846G.701 ; that is to provide for unforeseen expenses and to provide superior accommodation for passenger purposes in the city of Montreal, and to assist in building a brid,'zt' across the Ottawa river, making altogether for these threo roads $9,800,738.75. In order to see the whole position, i add to this the grants to other raihvays by statute other than these mentioned, $3,354,820. I have prepared a list of all grants promised to railways in the Province, and I find they amount to a given sura ; I take from this given sum the amount paid to the Quebec and Gosford road-- $48,000, and I take the amount paid to the Richelieu, Drummond and Arthabaska $99,180, and I find the balance 48 ^0 be $8,354,820, which hai been appropriated to other toads than tlio North Shore line. lion. Mr. OuiilET —How much / ■ ; i ::; Hon. Mr. Hobektson— $3,354,820 ; making- in th94.000; Laehute, $25,000; Ste. Scholastique, $10,000 ; llounty of Ottawa, $200,000 ; adding up these, I estimate, \n order to make them equal to cost, a discount of 15 per ?ent., making $356,150. Adding to these sums proceeds of ^he loan in England, and when I say the loan I mean the ictual receii)t3, 83,697,083.33 deducted from the cost of (railways and grants, leaves S'??, 102,325 42 to be provided )r yet. To provide for this amount v/e have the lands granted towards the whole lino of road, amounting to ,727,000 acres, which, although not giving us any revenue low, will unquestionably be worth all and more than they ^w are called in a few years' time, and will give to the Province all the additiojial amount which the Province is 44 called upon to disburse for the liiio of road from Quebec to Portage du Fort (hear, hear), and in saying this I am jiot speaking without authority, because I am able to say this— that parties are prepared to give a price for these lands, which, to say the least, will be equal to the amount that Government will expend upon this road over and abovo the former appropriation. (Hear, hear — Hon. Mr. Malhiot.) Therefore, I thinlv I am safe in saving that althouffh lands do not yield any immediate revenue, still they are worth to the Province all they cost. (Hear, hear.) .... Mr. JoT.Y — Parties are prepared to give a pricj for tho landf* ■: ; Hon. Mr. lloiJKRTSox— Yos, , Mr. JoLY — AVhv don't vou give them .' tlou. Mr. ItOBERTSOX— I don't know why (laughter) ; I may say that I have written to parties to obtain the names . of their associates, and see that they are a right class ol men, as I have no donbt they are. I have a letter from one . this morning on the .subject. ,.; The lion, gentleman proceeded as follows : — By these ligures the amount proposed to be raised to build the road — the whole road — is $4,102,825, and it is proposed to issue upon bonds secured upon the whole line of railway, 372 miles, a sum not to exceed 88,100 a mile, three millions of dollars, and this makes provision for the line, and is the amount proY)osed to be given lor the line running from Quebec to Portage d" Fort. (Hear, hear.) AVe then re- quire, Mr. Speaker, to borrow, in order to meet our engagements, an amount which will not be all needed. because there is no question but that several railways will probably not be built ; but should they be built, and should they call ui^on the Province for the subsidy now granted, the amount required to be borrowed will be 5^4,102,325. Mr. JoLY— Pcducting value of land ? 46 ^Hoti. Mr. Robertson — No, no, no. We have lands itside of that ; we do not call them worth anythinj^ so b as this loan is concerned, but of coarse they would be l^orth something, worth all paid for them, but nevertheless \e. do not raise anything on the land ; neither are they icluded in this portion of the scheme. What I mean to ly is this, in order to carry out present contracts for roads km Quebec to Aylmer, and from Aylmer to Portage du fort, and all other lines of road we have subsidized, we rill require $4,102,325, and with three millions of bonds ksued on the security of 372 miles of road, this will suffice complete the whole scheme as proposed by the Govern- lent to-day, and then in order that the House may know [reciscly how we would stand, take §4,102,325, which may \e the amount required to be borrowed, just as roads art) milt, and take and add to that amount a sum which we >orrow in England and then we have found a total oi" Jomething less than eight millions of debt proposed to be mt on this Province if the scheme of the Grovernment is parried, and for every mile of railway subsidized and here- tofore built. (Hear, hear.) This is a true statement of the josition assumed by the Government and submitt-xl to Ihis House. Mr. JoTA' — I will ask a question, not for the purpose of Interrupting-, for I know the Treasurer said he suffered from sickness, but allow me to ask him a question. The ion. member said that the total amount would h^ thirteen nllions of dollars. The Treasurer— Yes. * " : *;> - Mr. JoLY — The hon. Treasurer said that the subscriptions >f the Quebec, Montreal and other municipalities — The Treasurer— Certainlv. Mr. JolV — And of proceeds of loan— The Treasurer— -Certainlv.I.take that, / •16 Mr. JoLY— He stated that after au estimate of these assets] if the assets be taken from the thirteen millions— The Tkeasureu— Yes. Mr. JoT.Y — It would k'livo seven millions ? The TREASUiiER—Cortainly. thai -was what 1 said. ^Ir. JoLY — Therefore, in order to provide forthe.se sevoii| millions — the Treasurer stated first the value of the land, and then said this is not to be put down as representinir money. ^ The TiiEASUREK -No. Mr. .ToiA' — And then the h on. Treasurer suyss we wiilj have to borrow !;^4, 102,000. Very w^ell ; now out of seven millions of dollars required, I see iiij-1,102,000 to be pro- vided for by loan, but I do not see where the other threo! millions are to come from. Mr. Robertson — I stated tlial: it was propor^ed to isiuo upon the security of the road from Quebec to Portage dn Fort, an amount of bonds not to exceed threi3 millions ol dollars (hear, hear, from Mr. Malhiot and other members), that was what I staled, while the road with branches will reach a length of 370 miles, a debt of three millions being contracted upon the whole line of road, that is the pro- position which I submit and which I hope is perfectly understood. Mr. JoLY'— Thank vou. Mr. RonERTSON — As I stated before, the total amount ol our debt in case every mile of the road is built taking into account the amount of the new debt and the amount of old debt at its faoe, without discount on bonds, would amount to a sum a trifle less than eight million* of dollars, and this is certainly somewhat less than fifteen or sixteen millions, (hear, hear,) even if >ye £jdd three piillions of bonds 4: [it if wo can sell those bonds, and no doubt wa can ider tlio arranu'oments proposed, then the Iloujse will ^iinctly undcTfitand the caso as to the amount of dcht. all events, as staled a few minutes aao, the inereased int to the road from Quebec to Portage du Fort, will ))e lelhing less than two millions more than it was before. )elicve that we might hare increased the amount of th<' inds to bi3 issued on the security of the railway and [nipment, but it was thought better to reduce the amouni a minimum so as to show capitalists in England that the >vernment and the cities of Quebec and Montreal wen* )t afraid to place their money to the amounf of two-thirds 'the entire cost of the road and gave capitalists security )t only on our own two-thirds but upon the expenditure their own one-third for a guarantee for the payment of iterest from year to year. (Hear, hear.) While I expect. [r. Speaker, nothing less than that efibrts will be made to jpreciate the value of these bonds in England to prevent leir sale, at the same time there is little doubt but that |arties socking investment for capital will be satisfied with le security offered ; that it is ample, there is no kind of [oubt ; that the earnings of the road will be suihcient to pay \e bonded interest, there can be no question. Propositions ^om parties have already ])een made for a lease of the line, Int Government of course, was not in a position to enter ito any contract for that purpose. Still, there is no doubt lat perfectly responsible parties are quite prepared to jase these roads if Government do not see fit to run them lemselves which I think they would not do (hear, hear,) order to secure payment of interest to capitalists. (Hear, ^ear). Power will be asked in the Bill tobe brought down lease the road to a company of individuals, subject to itification of the House, the same as was done for the con* ruction of the wo^k. Mr. OuiMET— To lease the road ? I Mr. EoBERTSO>' — Yes. I would have wished, if time jrmitted, to produce a statement as to the probable traffic 48 receipts of those roads, but I can only refer gentlemen desirous of informing themselves on the point to a very elaborate report prepured by the engineers of both roads a^ to the probable traflic. Judging from the receipts of other roads and the statistics arranged by railway men, and proved to be correct, and as to the working of these roacl reports will be found useful. I prefer to refer them \v these papers rather than to attempt to give any figures ol my own. I am awnre, Mr. Speaker, that people havo objections to Government building railways, and perhap* there are more objections to Government running railway.' ufti'r they are built, and I am rather inclined to thai opinion, while I believe Government in circumstances o tliis particular case, can build this railway cheaper and ai less cost to tlie public than any private company could, taking into at'count the .state of the English market ; tha possibly it would be better policy for Government hereaftor to lease the roaKos, plnciiig" lio moro IjiircU'n.s on tho pooplo.ol' thia jouiiiry from year to year than aro placed on people orotlior provinces of tho Pominion. I have already made pro- 'i;,-ion in tho licen?ic re.solution.s for a larg-e increase of oar rovenue, and I have no doubt that in thi' administration of ju.sli(!e a savini^ may be cff-'cted, and with respect to polico laud oilier items ; ho that there will bj no ditliculty, as I view it, in nuikinq" uj) a siilficient revenue to Justify this (xtra outlay ol Government in aid of railway construction. [It will bo borne in mind also what I stated last year — wo [have in the hands of the Dominion Government one and a [quarter millions of a trust fund, and three-quarters of a million in the hands of the Ontario Governm'ent arisinur out of a certain school fund belona'in2: to both Provinces before 'Confederation, upon which these two Got ernments are now paying interest. This question, Mr. Speaker, as to the amount of the debt to be due by the Province of Quebec is one which requires of Government and of the members of this House morst careful consideration. It should form an ingredient in forming an opinion as to the amount of debt we are able to assume regarding the purpose or -piu- poses for which this debt is created — that is, for construction of railways which will benefit the country by introducing now sources of industry, and by providing better means of communication towards our centres. It would be the means of enabling our farmers to get better markets for [their produce and assist us in establishing various kinds of mechanical industry, which we can establish, but which we never could do so or carry on without railways ; then ; I think we might be justified in assuming a certain amount iof debt for such interests as these, when we would not [Tinder other circumstances procure these benefits, and [especially if indirect benefits to the Province were not to be so great. (Hear, hear.) I consider, Mr. Speaker, the ||ailway policy of the Government as proposed, the most Important that was ever introduced into this Legislature of Juobec. (Hear, hear, from both sides of the House.) The 7 ^0 tonsid'eration of this question rises far above party lines or party feelings. We ought to look into this question as business men and as a matter of business. It should bo judged upon its own merits, and if we find that the Pro- vince cannot stand the amount of debt we are proposing to put on it, this -House should reject the measure in the interests of the Province, The overthrow of this Grovern- nient or of any other Government is a matter of very small importance compared with the interests of this Province at large. "We are guardians of these interests at present, and it becomes us in looking at a question of this magnitude to examine caVefully and calmly deliberate in an impartial manner in such a way that we will be able to give to this country our opinion on this question irrespective of whether the members sit on this side of the House or the other side of the Hous^ ; whether members support the Government or support the Opposition (hear, hear) ; I take it that re- garding a question of this kind, Mr. Speaker, we have no party, and that we have never had party feeling heretofore displayed I am bound to say some members sitting on the othe?- side of the House have so far supported the policy of the Government. (Hear, hear.) . li the Government policy is a bad one, they are bound to oppose it, but if good I am confident they will support it. Touching this question, every member of this House should act independently with a view to the future interests of the country, letting the Government stand or fall. For myself, I have little fear that the House will not coincide with the Government in this relation and justify it in taking up a work of this magnitude in the interests of the Province. (Hear, hear.) I have given, Mr. Speaker, all tne information that lies in my power respecting this question ; I think that no mem- ber will accuse me of holding back anything. The hon. member for Lotbiniere hag at times, either jokingly or otherwise, accused me of being reticent in giving informa- tion on financial matters (hear, hear,) but members, on whatever side of the House they, may be, will, I think. 51 re me the credit of presenting in conection with the )vernraent's policy, a fair expos6 of all the matters con- frned. I think no one will ba able to say in future — ■ [ou deceived me, either as a member of this House or as a fember of the public. As to the amount of revenue I )ect to receive, or the amount of expenditure which I )pose to submit to this House, I am satisfied that the cpenditure will bo kept within the limits ; and I am itisfied also that the revenue which we expect to receive, id will receive, will r-rther exceed the estimate given to lis House. I do not want it to be said by anybody here- tter, in one month oi- in two months, or in two years. The freasurer of the ProA'ince brought down schemes and kept ick information, leading me to vote in favor of his policy, id leading me to support the measure, when, if I had lown the facts of the case as I do to-day. 1 would have >ted against such a policy, th^s, I think, I am enabled to ly in my own justification, and I think the House will jar me out in stating that there is no mode of obtaining dormation, no moans of information at my command rhich I have not communicated to the House. If every jile of the road, as I said before, is to be built which is just low proposed, the amount of money required will be Irecisely what 1 have stated, but if the whole amount should lot be needed, the debt of the Province will be so much »ss, possibly giving the Government an opportunity here- rter of making a redistribution of the moneys to roads that re now languishing for want of aid, if the Government at lie time sees lit to do so. (Hear, hear.) I believe, Mr. Ipeaker, with the increased facilities which the carrying it of our railway system ^vill give to every department of idustry in our Province, that our people can well afford to ly the amount of extra taxation necessary, far better than could afibrd to do without these railways, and to go on the old one-horse system (hear, hear), such as wo were )liged to follow until the raihvay mania or fever took )Ssession of the public mind, and although private parties 62 may suffer, I firmly believe this — that it is within the power of the people of this Province to bnild railways and 1o have a bonded debt so small that instead of railways in Canada being a reproach and a by- word, as they are to-day, on the English market, ou'ing to the non-payment of interest on their bonds, we can show the people in England that we can build railways, run them and pay their interest, and while it is a great benefit to us they will run no risk themselves, and the interest and sinking fund vrill be as sure as in any investment they can nnikc. I expect to en- counter difficulties in carrying out this scheme ; I expect that in the House, with reference to the course adopted by the Government there will be a great many things arising against which we must fight {hear, hear) ; I expect nothing else, but I trust and hope that the House will £0 act con- cerning this measure as to shov»' that there is no division of sentiment amongst members as to the matter of these great thoroughfares which are to be constructed, and that it will not be thrown into the teeth of those who co to England to negotiate these bonds, cither of the Government or of the railroad, that we are a divided Province and a divided people ; that tlie measure was carried by a bare majority, and that about one-half of the Province is against as compared with those in favor of the measure. Hon Mr. Speaker, a few words as regards vvhat wo usually called South Shore Kailways. (Hear, hoar.) The Government did not think it prudent in the present state of the finances, and in view of the figures which I have given to the House (of course, they have been laid before my colleagues), the Government did not think it prudent, I say, to further increase the debt of the Province bv granting an additional subsidy at present, in aid of these enterprises. « Hon. Mr. Ouimet — "Was it impossible ? Is it impossible to increase the amount of subsidies ? Hoif. Mr. IvOBERTSON— I have no hesitation in stating that the Province, provided the House will vote ways and 53 jans to pay interest and sinking fund, could just as well ford to have given a few hundred thousands more as it (n to give the sum I have mentioned (hear, hear) ; it is f.tiro]y a question of ways and m.\ans as to the amount lis Provinco is able to stand. A Voice — It depends on the Treasurer. [lion. Mr. KoBERTSON— Yes ; it dependson the Treasurer, l-you pass the measure the Treasurer brings down, and \e prepared to swallow the item as nicely and smoothly as istor oil, there will be no trouble in finding money for the iilwavs, but whilst looking at the interests of the Pro- ince, though this House were evei^ disposed to grant ways id moans to an exhorbitant ext'3jit, this woiild be no :cuse, and we must not oppress the people more than the [ate of the country's iinances will warrant, but the Govern- ment will introduce measures vrhich it is supposed will ford a certain amount of relief to South Shore Kailwavs ; tt is, to enable some of the companies at all events to rosecute their work ; but instead of paying the subsidies ranted to these roads in cash, for sections often miles of >mplcted road, the Government will guarantee a certain lount of interest upon a certain amount of bonds for a |ven number of years, so as not to exceed the gfant of J,000 or $2,500, as the case mny ])e, in order to enable lese companies to sell their bonds better to capitalists in ingland, the great objection to the sale of these bonds in mgland^-the one great objection being that there is no ITovision made for the interest of these bonds during the ro or three years absorbed in the construction of the jads, — and witli these provisions, that the Government light, for four or five years, as the case might be, guarantee [certain amount of interest on a certain amount of bonds jr mile for a series of years, not to exceed the present ^ant, in order that the bonds may be sold in such way as § enable these roads to prosecute their worlv, because there be no question in my mind that, by reason of the small 54 amount of bonds proposed to be raised by the different railway companies, the interest on these bonds will be met otherwise. It was foolish indeed to undertake the construction of the railway, if, with the aid given by the Government, and aid given by municipalities, and aid given by private individuals, the small amount of bonded debt cculd not be paid, and if the interest on bonded debt could not be met it was foolish to undertake the building ofthese railways at all. (Hear, hoar.) "With respect to some roads— to two of the roads, they had received grants heretofore of a certain number of dollars per mile, for which pro- vision will be made. Take, for instance, the grant of $1,000 per mile, made to the Montreal, Sorel and Chambly Rail- road. That road was intended to go from Sorel to Chambly, from Chambly to St. Johns, and from St. Johns to Mon- treal ; the whole distance of the road under the charter was 77 miles, to which was attached a subsidy of $1,000 a mile. The Government now intends not to grant any additional subsidy to that road, but to allow the company on the vote of their directors and shareholders for any portion of the line, say, for instance, Sorel and Chambly, to apply the subsidy w^hich was heretofore granted to the other part of the road from Montreal to .the Province line ; and something will perhaps be done in connection with the Richelieu, Drummond and Arthabaska road. In no case, so far will the grant be eapeeded which w^as given heretofore, but it only may be distributed in a different way, so as to allow certain roads to effect an additional aid in one sense, and in another sense no additional aid. I must now thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank this House for the patience with which the members have listened U> my remarks, and as I said before, I am rather unwell, and don't feel able to " bring down the budget," as it is called, in a proper manner, but I felt that the House had w^aited long enough for the statement, and I consequently made an effort to present it in a fair way, in order thathon. members might have an opportunity of discussing the pro* 65 St as submitted, and also of passing estimates from time to le. (Hear, hear.) I hope, Mr. Speaker, that the action (the House will be such that our successors in this House [d the people outside of the House will be satisfied ' that members of the Legislature of Quebec can discuss an ^portant question of this kind in a broad, statesmanlike mner, irrespective of political difi'erences, and that \\iiile ftain political differences exist we are determined that we |ill show ourselves to be worthy of the two great nations )m which we have sprung — the English and French Ltions, and that here we can meet upon common ground l.d take measures to advance the prosperity of our rovince. (Hoar, hear, and applause.) :A Voice— You are ridit. ,:},, :,: o .' , - • rough ;Mr. Joi.Y — Is the hon. Treasurer able to make a less and give the House an idea of what the yearly charge the Province would be in case we should borrow the mey required, say at the same rate as he made the [esent loan, for instance, the first loan of ^800,000 stg ? it us suppose the Treasurer may obtain the same favorable idition for the further loan of 5^4,102,000, and let us [ppose the bonds for three millions may be negotiated on the same favorable condition, is the Treasurer in a |sition to make a rough guess as to the yearly charge It the Province will have to bear in order to meet the terest and sinking fund for this amount, merely rough less ? [on. Mr. Robertson— I can tell the honorable gentle- |ai pretty nearly what it v/iil amount to ; if we borrow 58 millions of dollars, the annual charge upon the Pro-' Ice for interest will be $150,000, and one per cent, more >uld be equal to 6 per cent, on the whole, making 10,000 a year ; that would be the interest at five per it. and the sinking fund, upon the face of the loan. To ideducted from that would be the discount, of course, 56 tipon the amount of cash received. If we borro vT foiij millions, and I am perfectly satisfied that we would ]io| require to borro\\'' so much, or i^orhaps not quite tlia amount ; but if we borrow four millions we shall get ni good a price as wo have received. I am in hopes that t!i] opposition of certain individuals in England, and, I an] sorry to say, this opposition has reduced our bonds frorJ 104 to 98, at which figure they stand to-day, but, notwith] standing their efforts in that respect, I feel satisfied tlia] when the public in England get possession of the statement of the Government, and see the amount, the actual amonii; we propose to borrow, so diflcrent, so entirely difl;ereir| from what it has been represented to them heretofore, believe they will consider that the people of this Provincei had some respect for their own credit, and that we arJ determined not to be run into debt for more tllan we ciii!! pay ; and under such circumstances, year after year, better price v/ill be claimed for these bonds, because iLl Province of Quebec has been unlinown, never having beciil on the British mHirket before, and if we once establish ci.i| credit 0)1 the British market, and once show" that the i) lerest and sinking fund are promptly paid, we can go on the market and liorrovv' a second four millions to bettori advantage than the lir?t. Therefore, if we borrow thrci'i millions, it will entail a charge of ^5180,000 a year, and I'oii four millions the extra charge will be $240,000, includind one per cent — ii?40,000 — for sinking fund, in order to pro- vide for the gradual redemption of the debt from year loi year. I hope that 1 li-ive made myself understood to tin. hen. gentlemen. Mr. JoLY— I thought that tlio lion. Treasurer would go| further than that. Hon. Mr. RoiiKr.T.sox — "Well, ask what vou-wiint. Mr. JoLY — If the whole amount the Treaiurer v.ishes to| borrow were eleven millions, can our loan — [on. Mr. ROBEETSON— No, no. Mr. JoLY — Can tho four millioi^g the Treasurer proposes [borrow, the four millions and tUree millions as a loan which we will have I o pay-r- , 'ho Hon. TREASUBiiR— Not at all. Ir. JoLY — So that, altogether, it will come to eleven lUions — * ^.v :he Hon. Tbeasuher— No, no. Mr. J01.Y — So that these eleven millions — •». ' [The Hon. TREASurtEU—If the honorable gentleman will low me to say that the Government do not intend to pay interest of three millions in aid of the road — Mr. JoLY — "Who will pay the intei'est ? [The Hon. Treasurer— The road itself. The Commis- ^ners of the road will provide for that interest, and Lhave doubt of this — that there are fifty men who -would be id to be Commissioners if we would give them the road merely pay its bonded debt, giving them the balance. ^€ Government does not intend to guarantee the interest three millions of bonds ; if paying two-thirds, nearly ree-quarters of the amount necessary to build the road ill not secure from capitalists in England the other one- |ird or the other on'e-quarter, as the case may be, giving jurity for the full amount, we had better abandon the Iways built in this country. (Hear, hear.) I do not lieve anything of the kind, but I firmly believe that if show English capitalists, that this Province is pre- red to expend, bona fide, eight millions — VOICE- -Nine millions. 'he Hon. Treasurer — Seven millions, and if we want je milUoiis more in order to build a railway, and do not 8 58 ask them to give that money until oilf money has been expended and wo have something to show for the expendi- ture, I have no donbt that we shall get the money, and, moreover, that they will be very glad to invest in a security so safe, and, in connection with which, there is no possibility of any loss. . Mr. ]ylATnii-:u~ Allow me to put a ^iuesticn. .;';.. The lion. Treasurer— 1 beg yonr pardon. Mr. Matiiieu— 1 am asking a question. The Montreal, Portland and Boston Railway Company have applied to get aid for a portion of their line ; for instance, the Treasu- rer said with reference to the branch from Sorel to Chambly can they apply for a subsidy for the other portion of the lino ? ' :' •" ; ' ..' "■.•;, V ■,^:-V ' The lion. Treasurer — They have made application with this difference, that they are not satisfied with that merelv ; but want a crreat deal more. „ ,. ;• v Mr. Matiiieu— The Company? ■< ./.ij. The Hon. Treasurer — The Company have made appli- cation for that, and in addition to that they ask for a very mucii larger sum, which the Government did not feel quite able to grant ; they^ asked us to grant so much, but the advance Aviii be made only with the sanction of the Rail- way Company and Shareholders rectifying any resolution which the Board of Directors may adopt. It is only on ratification 'by the shareholders that any company can either get a fixed subsidy changed into a bonded interest for a series of years on a certain portion of the line cut off' from the subsidy at present applied to that portion, and distributed over the remaining portion. * • Hon. Mr. Irvine-^I do not wish to trouble the treasurer with any question, but I only w^ish to assure myself; I iderstood two parts of his statement on the subject of tlio lilvvay, with reference to the three millions it is said to be levitable that we should borrow on the credit of this road. understand the Treasurer to say that the Government do lot intend to be responsible for the interest on that inten- [ed loan. Of course, then, I understand that in reality the l-overnment will not be the borrowers of the three millions. do not wish to enter into any criticism of the scheme now [resented until I understand a little better what appears at [rst sight to be a little difficnlt to uftderstand — how the i-overnment, who are to be the owners of this railway, lould be able to borrow the money secured upon their |wn property were they themselves the debtors for the loney proposed to be borrowed over that now to bo tpended. I do not quite understand it, but I understand ly hon. friend to say now that we shall not be the borrow* or responsible for the interest of three millions; I un*. ^erstand that part correctly, but I do not make out from rhat my hon. friend has explained, -whether the increased im proposed to be obtained from licenses is the only roposed increase of taxation it is intended to resort to in frder to meet the demands. The Hon. Treasurer — Not at all. That is surely brought town as a portion of what the Government intend to bring lown ; there will be other measures ; some of them we Uve given notice of, but other matters are to be brought (own, but I want to keep our usual revenue and our usual ixpenditure as separate as possible — that is, in bringing |own the estimates for the next year, I take what I believe bo our usual revenue and our usual expenditure. i Hon. Mr. Irvine— Then we have not thoroughly heard ft:t ways and means. The Hon. Treasurer — No, nc. [Hon. Mr. IRVINE—That is what I want to know ;,■,» 60 Hon. Mr. Robertson — I move that the House go int( Committee of Supplies. Carried, and the Hour being si: o'clock the House, on motion of Hon. Mr. Robertson, soverall items being passed, rose, and having reported progress and asked leave to sit again, took recess, i'-^ ' *>/;• iitjil'/'tv ;. . •,'