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THE BUDGET PllEFEHENTIAL TR VDE WITH (iRE.VT BllITAIX - - ]IE( IPHOCITV WITH TTTE UN ri EI) STATES !l HOUSE OF ('(yMMONS, APllll. .'I, l!M>;{ ( > 'I' I" A W A COVKRX.MKNT l'KINTIN(i lUUKAl I HO.) ii 'A ^s^^gm 'i*i^ House of Co mmons debates THIRD SESSION-NINTH PARLIAMENT / SPEECH OF JOHN CHARLTOX, M.P IKIUSE OF COMMOX8, APKII, 21, 10O3 T -i BUDGET PREFERENl xi A J.v WITH GREAT BRITAIN CITY WliH THE UNITED STATES ■RECIPRO- Mr. JOHN CHAKLTON (North Norfolk) I\^^^^^' **** flnanclal statement present- ed to this House n few days since by my hoii. friend the Minister of Finance, is a statement dlfTerent in character. In some material respects, from many that preceded It. It has attracted wider attention than any statement of a similar kind In the his- tory of the confederation. It was looked for with Interest In foreljrn countries, and cer- tain features have aroused great Interest in the United States, Germany and France, llils statement presented to the House and tlie country the record of a period ot un- exampled prosperity. It is a record of in creasing wealth, expanding commerce and abundant revenues, for which we need to thank divine Providence, and we should not permit ourselves to believe that we created the conditions by which we profit and that a higher power has nothing to do with the shaping our destinies and Interests. The stnteraent of the Miiiis- nf fhf I"Jn"^.t F""^ " ""^fl^^ Indication L A^"""' ^^'^^ ""^ stirs this nation- ality with a sense of new bom power and we may approach Its consideration In a spirit of thau.»fulness that the aP « of tills country are In such a prosperous condi- tion, and realizing also that we are upon the thjeshold of an era of great development which will require the exercise of prudent statesmanship and wise direction. There are certain features in this financial statement which give me great satisfaction mdeed. The imposition by Germany against Canada of a discriminating duty, because of a preference given by this country to the pioducts of Great Britain was utterly un- justifiable. The Imposition by G»nnany of discriminating duties against Canada as a punishment for the preferential duties In favour of Great Britain granted by Canada was an act cathely without warrant. The two countries are on an entirely different I has s as regards their commercial relations I with us. Great Britain is our mother state :and we have advantages In her markets ! not accorded to us by Gennany. No duties I are levied In the one case, heavy duties are I ^vled In tlie other, and the assumption by Germany that we should receive discipline because the mother country, which glv^s ?rnnf f^^^ J^^^^ket, Is treated differently from the German empire by our tariff was a high-handed and Indefensible act When we take Into consideration the state of our trade with that country the character of this act becomes more apparent out- inipoi-ts from Germany last vear amountl eU to n0,910,044. Our total exhorts to that conn ry were $2,692,578. The percentat ; which our Imports bore to our total tra. ■ ! with Germany was 81 per cent. Our ex- ''*' «?/^5® produce of Canada, however, j were $1,208,634, which would lea^e our per^ ; centnge of exports to our total trade 89 and 'S^^^,?.^'/.^* ?*'*l°" "^ Germany was little i short of Insolent, and I cannot but approve j most heartily of the action of the hon. Mlnls- |ter of Finance In Imposing discriminating I duties a^lnst that country. And tho nrtton I of the Canadian government In resenting I that move on the part of Germany has arou."*- ; ed the attention of the world and won the approval of the worid, outside of Germany, It Is Instinctively felt that. In tftking this I 1^ 4I conne, we have simply stilted om- rlitlit"t we had better do It and that It Is a uood tl-tic to assert our own sense of i roprlety, our own sense of the unfair usage to which we have been subjected. I repeat the govern- ment's course In this matter nipets my un- qualified approbation, in fact I admire the courage which has marked the government s attitude. , , ^. Now, In listening to the remarks of the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax) and also in perusing the remarks of the hon. member for St. Mary's division, Montreal (Hon. Mr. Tnrto). to which I had not the pleasure of listening, I find that ex- ception is taken to the course of the gov- ernment In falling, at this Juncture, to enter upon a revision of the tariff, and the asser- tion is made that the condition of our affairs is of a character to render It proper and necessary to onter upon this revision. Now It strikes me, Mr. Speaker, on the contrary that the reasons nssigned l>y the Finance Minister for deferring action upon the tariff, except In the few lnoonsideral)le Instances in which he has ciinuped conditions, arc good reasons. We do not know, at the pre- sent moment what tlie premises nrc upon which we sliall be called upon to act. As the Finance Minister says we have tbe ques- tion ot preferential trade not yet definitely settled. AVe do not know what may come of it. but the outcome must necessarily have a very material liearlng upon the course which weniay pursue with regard to tariff legislation. Then we have the probable re- assembling of the Joint High Commission and of negotiations with the United States relating to proposals to have enlarged trade relations between tlicse two countries. If these negotiations are successful, of course Ihe conditions of things will be difCerent from what It would be if the negotiations were unsuccessful. We must necessarily prc-dleate our tariff, to a large extent upon the outcome of the negotiations with the United States, and tlie relations which may be permanently settled between these two countries. For these reasons— without ex- pressing at the moment any opinion as to the abstract propriety of protection or free trade— I hold that It Is the part of prudence to refrain, at preoent, from definite action until we know the terms we shall have to confront and the conditions wo shall have to meet. In regard to the 11. tlsh prefeience. my hon. friend from St. Mary's division, in his speech last night. If he Is correctly reported, held that this question is already closed, that we hava a clear and decisive answer from the British government. Well, this may be the case; at all events, I om quite disposed to agree with this hon. gentleman as to what will be tlie outcome in tills ques- tion. I do not believe to-day, and I never have believed, that we could obtain from Great Britain preferential treatment In her markets to any material or tangible extent. I think tliat the experience that we have had wltli the preference we have given to Great Britain warrants ns In the expecta- tion, now, after four or five years trial, that there will be no resiwnse to that concession. And I think that when we examine into this case a little more deeply, we shall be war- ranted In arriving at the conclusion that Great Britain Is not ir. a position to offer ns any preference In her market under any conditions whatever. The reasons that lead me to this conclusion are based upon the scrutiny of British tradt returns. These returns show the compiratlve insignificance of Great Britain's colon ..1 trade as compared with her foreign trade. For Instance. I find tliat in the year 1001, the last year for ^ which we have tlie returns, the total Im- ports Into Great Britain were £.■531,990,000 sterling. Of this total, £410,410,000 were Imports from foreign countries, or 70-73 per cent. The imports from Greater Britain, that Is, from all the British colonies and de- pendencies, amounted to £10,5,573,000, or 20-27 per cent. Great Britain's total Im- ports from Canada, aocordhig to these Brl- tlsli returns, amounted to fl9,8.'»4.000, or 3-7 per cent of tlio total imports. Now. when we take the o.xiiorts from Great Britain, wo find tiiat the total for 1901 was £347,- 804,000. Of this amount, foreign countries took £2;U.7-1.",000. or 07-4 per cent, while Greater Britain, that Is the colonies and de- pendencies, took £113,118,000, or 32-06 per cent, while tlio Dominion of Canada took £9,2.")0,000, or 2C per cent. Now, when our trade with Great Britain Is so small that the Imports she receives from us are only ^3.70 for every .$100 of her total Imports, while, of every $100 of British exports Can- . ada only receives .$2.00. it strikes me as being unreasonable to suppose that England will eiig.nge in a system of discrimination in our favour against the vast bulk of her , trade with foi-eign nations, and with the ! certainty that it will lead to retaliation and I bad relations with those countries. I do not think. Sir, that we need expect anything of that kind. Great Britain cannot meet our wishes; such a course would be ruinous to her foreign trade and would Immediately Involve her In a cojimprcliil war with for- eign countries. Mr. Chnmlwrlaln. at the conference laat year, put a low eitlmiitc nn lli« value of our preference of 33* per cent, and did not conilder It equivalent to a pre^ fcrence In our favour on brendituffs to the extent of even four per cent. That la. a pre- orence by Canada of 33* per cent on all lier Importa was not equal to a preference of ■* per cent on a partial list of Importa Into Great Britain. I confer that, when Ills breadstuff tax was put on In England. I anticipated without doubt that exception would be made In favour of Canada. I ug- sumed, aa a foregone concluilon, that we could expect nothing leas; and I conle... to .1 feollnif of (treat surprise when the result proved that the English government did not intend to give us that 4 per cent preference m. bi Istuffs as a return for the M* per ff that question as an abstract theory will have practical results, because It Is nothing aiore than academic In reality. As I sold before, we have the decision on the part of the gov- ernment to let the matter of revision of our tariff stand over until we know what dev- elopments will take place, what the con- ditions will be when we are called upon to act. That beliig the case. It Is unnecessary, and a waste of time. lt> my opinion, to enter Tipon a free discussion of the principles of protection versus free trade or a revenue tariff iwllcy. I shall have something to say, Mr. Speak- er, with your permission, upon the question of reciprocity with the United States. That question has filled a large place in the history of Canadian flsfal discussions, since long before confederation and down to tlic present time. The desire for closer trade relations led to treaty securing for us reciprocity In n;. :'al products away back In 1854. We '- ed the benefits that resnlted from thui ifeaty until 18CC. It was then abrogated. We know, those of us who will take the piilns to look up the history of Canada during that period, what the practical result of reciprocity was so far as It affected the Interests of Canada. We might draw from the experience of that period lessons as to wliiit would be ♦ pro- bable result of a similar line of jy If entered upon again. And so satis. ..ory, In the opinion of the Canadian public, wag the result of that period of reciprocity that Can- ada has c.-imestly sought for a renewal of that condition of affairs for many years since then. We sought strenuously to avert the abrogation of the treaty In 1806. Em- issaries from this country visited Washing- ton a few months after the treaty was ab- Trrr rogateC. After tb« Liberal party cam* Into power In 1874, one of Its flrtt actt was to despatch a commlieloner, Hon. George Brown, to Waiblngton, who, In conjunction witb Lord Thornton, the Brltlah minister, negotiated with the State Department a reciprocity treaty which waa not ratified by the Senate. Varloua other attempts were made, and we have only been debarred of late years from making these attempts by the apparent hopelessness of the efforts which have been put forth. The question Is one which has sunk somewhat In public (>stlmat!(m as to Its Importance for the last two or three jears, but It is a question which is as Important to-day to Canada, perhaps, as It evor has been. It is a question which has probably to receive again the con- sideration of the governu-ent of this coun- try, and the consideration of the govern- ment of the United States, and If It does receive that consideration. It will do so un- der circumstances, in my opinion, more con- ducive to a favourable result than have ex- isted since the abrogation of the treaty In 1S«<>. The hon. leader of the opposition, in his speech a day or two ago, asked the reason of the enormous expansion of Am- erican Imports. Well, the reason is quite obvious. We have maintained a moderctf tariff prllcy towards the United States and the rer of the world ever since this Com- moiwenhh, or Dominion, came Into exis- tence. Our duties have from time to tlni been advanced, but they are still at a modul- ate rate, at a rate which does not materlall.v Impede Importation from the United Statt< or any other country, at a rate which, of course, bus afforded some protection, which has led to the development of large manii facturing interests, but still at a rate which is not at all a prohibitive rate, under whloli Imports may steadily Increase from the outside world, and under which they havi- steadily Increased. Now, our frontier strei dies alonRside of the United States foi- 4,000 miles. The people of the United States are our neighbours. They have ; very th.oroughly developed raanufacturlnc system, the most extensive In the world. Although England exports more manufac- tured goods, the supply of the domestic' market of the United States amounts t" much more than the total manufactures of Great Uritain. They have an enormous manufacturing interest, and they have reached the point where they are cap.ibh' of supplying their own requirements, aivl have a large surplus available for export. j Now, necessarily, they are seeklni; foreig:! markets. Their conditions as to soil an' , climate and as to the wants of the peopl' I are similar to our own, and they have suc- { cecded In making a long list of articles which exactly suit our wants and which cannot veiy well be obtained elsewhere. The facility for getting goods there Is so much greater than across the ocean that this in Itself would act very powerfully In the dlret.tlon of securing the trade to them. Our merchant can oall up by telephone. In New York. ,or Boiton or Phlladel|ihla, hit curreapondent, aakint hini to make a Bman •hlpraent of good*, they will be on their way In a few houra, and tUpy will be liprp lu two or three dayn To sort up hia atock be enn buy aa Utile or iia much na he pleaaea. The advuntagea art au great, he- • nuae of the facility for placing ordera and I !d na to whether we hliould enter upon ilK' kind of pollc.- that they have been pur- suiiiff townrda ua. The lion, lender of the 'Miimaltlon aaya that our tariff should be put up aa a preliminary to nesotlntlons I ut It up and then you will have gome- tlilnu to offer the Amerlrnnn, put It up. and If they do not jtlvo yon what yop 'iRbt to linve we would then have the vp.y ,nrlff ^v.> onght t" have. It Is my conviction that this course, adopted nt this Jnncture, would li.ive exactly the oppoalte effect from tht.t wlilch the hon. leader of the opposition sup- poses It would have. If wo were to enter upon n revision of the tariff such as we »ould perhaps desire t> do In ease we ^liould get to adequate concessions from tlie Americans, It would be a tariff of n 'liarncter which would create Irritation, It "ould be a tariff of a character that would lery likely defeat the object we liad In Mew. It would be flouted In the face as 1 menace, t would be practlcnllv saylnjt to t.iem : H. re we have done thih ; you do "bat we want or we will keep this tariff !!i force. I do not think tli;it would be nru- cnt or i)olltlc. We should approach the I Mited states In a different manner. The tlnu' Is near at hand when. In ni.v opinion, we are certain to set ^/>^y material concessions. I am quite op- iMuistlc about the mut.°r. I believe that no wii- get concessions *hnt will be en- tiieiy satisfactory, and so I am thorouffhlv convinced that It would not be prudent li) : nin- Interest to enter upon a course such !s we miKht enter upon, In all probabllltv i such as we would be Justified In enterln" upon If no concessions were made. ' ' »ur relations with the TTnlted States must i necessalrly, largely govern our tariff polky. ' It is the country with which we have Ae I largest amount of trade. It Is the country i with which our trade relations at the pre- ' sent time are most unsatisfactory and our lelatlons with that country must Inrgelr Kovern our tariff policy, and the adjustment or this tariff policy Is a matter of so much Importance that we do not want to enter upon that adjustment rashly without a full knowlet g> if tha condltlona. We want lo n • e alo ly and cautloualy. we want to feellnf Atout thia matter. I am pretty well known n thIa Houae to be an ad?ocnte of reciprocity. I commenced It long f , i dare an.v my rlglu hon friend tht i»rlme Minister ,Ut. Hon. Sir Wilfrid I.anrlpr) will lememlKM that I was clwmen by Mr MaekiMal.. In 187.". to defend the IJrown draft treaty when the attack waa made npon that treaty In this Ilouae by the opposition, headed by Mr .lohn A. Mncdomild. and since that time i have In-pn undevlatlng In my support of the iwlley of enlarKe "titer , ,i a broader and more reasonab.o t> icy as to trade affairs between i:ip i o gn-at Anglo- Saxon Conimonwealtbs of »i.e North Ameri- can continent, "'ut, I lmv> f ■.<■ -vu} that feeling grew i, •, cr whe:i h .Toint High Commission m ,. Quebec and Washing- ton, and when I. In com.aon with my brother conmjls.sioners, was brought more fully Into contact with the Question of the trade relations between Cnnad.i and the United States, that we have not been fairly treated. I realized more fully tlian ever ' before the unfair characte.- of Anie-i'-an llscal legislation towards us. and I have felt a sense of resentment at the character of the American policy towards Canada. I have been actuated In the course I have ad- vocated and In the position whicli I have taken upon this question by the belief that If we could not get what waa fair from that country, that If we ar to continue to live under the conditions • i,it have existed during the past, we had better set up housekeeping for ourselves, and adopt a policy which we nnder normal conditions might not deem It advisable to enter upon. It w-as not. Sir. that I was In love with protection as an abstract proposition. It wps not that I waa dissatisfied with the condition r affairs that existed under our present tariff rates provided that we were met in the same spirit b.v our customers, It was not this that prompted mo to the course .hat I believed the proper one to pursue: but it vv;is prim- arily the conditions that exlstef" between this country and the United States. Last aeaalon I introduced a resolution In this House I Introduced It for a two-fold purpose. In the first place, I believed that what waa set forth In that resolution represented the teelinga of the great majority of the Cana- dian peop!?, and I thought that the formu- lating of this resolution would have a ten- dency to demonstrate as to whether my view apon that matter was right or wrong I thought In the second place, Sir, and per- haps this was the consideration that had 1.4 the mi)8t weight with me, I thonght In the second place that If that resolution did re- present the feelings of the mai^s of the Canadian electors, that It would be very well toj have the United States public, men In a position where they could consider the resolution, make Inquiries if they chose tis to whether it represented any considerable degree of public sentiment; whether it re- presented a public sentiment that was likely In the end to crystallize into 'legislation If they did not meet us with fairer terms. I put this resolution upon the ' Hansard ' largely for the purpose of bringing to the attention of the United States the fact that Canndn realized that their treatment of the United States was unfair; realized that we had submitted to that treatment for many years without pro- testing, and proposed in the future to re- verse the action we had pursued; and In tho event of faillnj; to secure concessions from the United States that were reasonable and .lust, tli.Tt we proposed to adopt the policy foreshadowed by this resolution. Mr. CI.AXCY. Would the hon. Kentle- raan pardon me. Did the hon. gentleman endeavour to get an expression of this House at that time in order that the United States would know tliat that wns the policy to be adopted. Mr. CUAULTON. I may say to my hon. friend that I did not; that I did not intro- duce that resolution with the intention of asking the House to give an expression. On the contrary, I definitely stated that the ro- snlution was talded for the purpose of hav- ing mature consideration by the House aud by the country; that It was a matter of so miicli importance that I did not ask hasty action, and that in fact we had not reached a position for action to ije taken with that clear conception as to what was the best course under the circumstances, and under circumstances that might develop. The resolntion was as follows : That this House is of the opinion that Cana- dian Import duties should be arranged upon the principle of reclpro'^lty In trade conditions so far as may be consistent with Canadian Inter- ests ; that a rebate of not less than 40 per cent of the amount of duties Imposed, should be made upon dutiable imports from nations or countries admitting Canadian natural products Into their markets free of duty ; and that the scale of Canadian duties should be sulBclently high to avoid Inflicting Injury upon Canadian Interests in cases where a rebate of 40 percent or more shall be made under the conditions aforesaid. Or, that our minimum rate of tariff sliould be high enough to afford as great a degree of protection as was afforded ,it present; and that 40 per cent to that rate which was sufficient to protect our Industries, Bhould be added in the eases of all countries, witli- out discrimination or naming any, that failed to admit our natural products free of duty. Now, I think, Mr. Speaker, that resolution outlines in the rough the course that it would be proper for us to pursue if condi- tions continue as they are. It outlines lu th^ rough the very conditions we have adopted within a few days with regard to Germany, and even if we were to make a reciprocity treaty with the United States, and that country placed Itself upon the same footing as England does in admitting our natural products free of duty. I think the same resolution could with propriety still be put on our statute-book, discriminating against other nations that failed to treat us in the manner in wliich we would be treated by the United States and Great Britain. And with regard to this position. Sir. Speaker, while I advise, as Mark Hanna said some time ago : To stand pat on the tariff question; yet, I will state that I thinic ' pat ' Is Inclined to make a move unless things take a reasonable and desirable shape. And while I am a strong advocate of reciprocity; while I sincerely desire to secure a treaty which will be to the ad- vantage of this country and the Unltod States; yet if we fail, if we are to have meted out to us the same treatment that we have had meted out to us in the past thirty years; I go for drastic measures and I think that I may point to the highly significant remarks of the Finance Minister who said : That the government would be governed l)y existing conditions, and while he believes In free trade yet they must be governed to some extent by wliat was done by their adversaries— and 1 give the Finance Minister credit for being too good a polltican to re- sist a great popular movement for the resent- ing and punishing of a line of conduct per- petrated towards us such as has been per- petrated for many years past. The repressive policy entered upon by tlio United States in 18G6, I wish to say a few words about. I noticed in the ' North Ameri- can Iteview ' the other day, an article from the Attorney General of Nova Scotia whlcli gave the exports and imports from and to the United States during the period of re- ciprocity, which will req"lre some revision l>y tlie Attorney General of Nova Scotia liefore lie has them Just ri.nht. When tlio reciprocity treaty went into operation in 18.">4, we liad the governments of Prinoe Kdward Island, of Nova Scotia, of New Urnnswick, and of the two Canadas; four different provincial governments, and I have had the returns compiled from the -\mericaii sources of information and from the Cana- dian sources, and in the Canadian returns I found it impossible to secure the returns from Prince Edward Island. This, of course, would be Inconsiderable and would nut materially affect the result. The im- port and export statistics for the period from 1854 to 18C0 inclusive derived from Canadian sources are aa follows : Imports from the United States, 1854 to 1866 Inclusive 1332,927.000 Exports to the United States, 1864 to 1866 Inclusive 2S9,876,000 Balance of trade in favour of Unlt^.^ States 062,000 V 176,000 The American returns for the same period give somewhat different results. Accord- ing to the American results the Imports fn.m nil British America, Newfoundland and Bri- tish Columbia Included are ns follows : Imports from the United States, 1854 to 1866 Inclusive $343,326,000 Exports to the United States, 18S4 to 1866 Inclusive 318,760,000 3. Balance of trade In favour of United States J 34,666,000 The balance of trade by the American i. turns Is $34,500,000 and by the Canadian returns $73,052,000. Now, the American people In abrogating the treaty in 1880 were governed to some extent by the Impression that the treaty was working against them; that the balance of trade was against them and In favour of Camftla. This was the case in the last year ; it was the case because the notice of the abrogation liad been given a year in advance, and there was great pres- sui-e to rush Into the United States every- thing that It was possible to get in during the time that was left, before August, 1800. But the operation of the treaty during nil the period It was in force was to the adviintnge of the United States, and gave to that country during that period a su1)stantlal balance of trade in its favoti -seventy-three millions, according to our returns; thirty- four millions, according to their returns. No reason was given for the abrogation of the treaty, which was really to the advant- ngo of both countries, and would have been more advantageous as the years went by. Tlie abrogation was an act of folly on the p,Trt of the United States and an act of un- friendliness as well, and the policy pursued since that time and up to a recent period liiis been one dictated, in my opinion, bv the belief that the inflicting upon us of a icpressive policy would drive us into tlio nrms of the republic. The truth was, Mr. Speaker, that we were obliged to seek new markets. The truth was that the abrogation of the treaty revolution- ized the trade of Canada. The truth was that this act of the American government gave a new face to the history of this con- tinent, and turned aside the tide of the forces that were setting powerfully in the direction of bringing these two peoples to- gether, and put in place of these forces other forces that repelled them from each other, and brought them to the position they occupy to-day. In ISfiO our direct exports of fnrin products to Great Britain were $3,i544,000, and to the United States, $25,042,000. In 1002 our direct exports of farm products to the United States were $7,694,000, one- tldrd of what they were in 186(?, while to Great Britain they were $80,661,000, a twenty-two fold increase during the same period. And so our whole fiscal history was reversed. Now conditions were introduced, conditions which the Americans were not aware of, which they have onlv recently become aware of. All this time they have been living In o, fool's paradiae, suppoBing that we were dependent upon them for a market and that they could exercise the same influence on sentiment in Canada which they did in 18CC. Our total export trade last year in animals and their products was $50,161,209; and In agricultural pro- ducts, $37,152,088, a total of $00,313,897. Of this amount Great Britain took $80,661,501. or 83-7 per cent of the whole amount; the United States. $7,004,478, or eight per cent of the whole amount; and all other countries, $7,007,918, or 83 per cent. So that England last year took over four-fifths of our total export of farm products to all the world. This Is a condition of things greatly differ- ent from what existed In 1866, when the .... ted States took twenty-five millions and I Great Britain less than four millions. I Under these conditions it Is not surprising 1 that the Canadian farmer has practically j forgotten about the American market. The benelits that he enjoyed by free access to I that market during the existence of the recl- i proclty treaty are largely a matter of hls- j tory to him. He has had no practical les- 1 sons of those benefits. He realizes In a sort j of abstract way that two markets are better I than one. that It could do no harm to have j access to the American market, tliat it would Indeed be quite beneficial to him; but he has not that keen desire for nccess to that mari^et that he would have if he i were aware of the conditions that would ex- ; 1st If the restrictions were removed. So that, : In debating this reciprocity question to-day, ! we have to recognize a certain degree of ap- j athy Willi regard to it existing In Canada : as well as In the United States. i We have opposed to this treaty, I think j wo may say. the manufacturing interest ; I we have probably opposed to it the trnns- i porting Interest; and we have opposed to It the political Influence which Is represented by the people in this country who believe that nothing good can come out of the United States, and who do not want to have anything to do with the Americans. We have in favour of this treaty a sort of pass- ive feeling on the part of the agriculturists, and keen desire for it on the part of the lumbermen and tlie fishermen. These are the forces arrayed for and against the pro- position to secure better trade relations with the United States. We have some developments of our trade in farm products— for I am dealing with this (juestlon largely from the farmer's stand- point—that are rather singular, rather un- expected to those who have never examined the question, and are rather suggestive. Last year, while we exported to the United States $7,694,478 of farm products, we imported from that country for consumption, accord- ing to the unrevlsed list which I have, and which will not be varied very much by the revised list, $15,437,213. or somewhat more than double the amount we exiiorted to that country. Among our imports of asrlcwltnral and animal products where our purchases M for consumption exceeded our sales to the United States, were the followinK articles : Corn, oats, wheat, wheat flour, corn meal, ontmeal, seeds, small fruits, tobacco leaf, broom corn, hemp, flnx seed, horses, hogs, poultry, eggs, butter, cheese, lard, bacon, bams, salt beef, salt pork, bides, skins, wool, . and so forth. All that list of articles we im- poi'ted from the United States for consump- tion In excess of our exports to the United States for consumption in that country. Well, that Is rather n suggestive list. Very few people would Imagine that this country, which was believed to be dependent on the United States for a market, which was sup- posed to be a suppliant for access to that mnrkft. wouM show such a condition of trndp ill farm products. But such Is the case ; so that if we were to adjust the com- mercinl rolatlonshlp of the two countries upon the basis of free trade in natural pro- ducts, the advantages would be by no means all on one side. Upon the basis of free trade In natural products the balance ad- vantaees would perhaps not be on our side. We have west of the Rocky Mountains, the great province of TJritisIi Columbia, a pro- ductive mining region, which has its most pconoralcnl sonrce of supply of farm pro- ducts In ■Washington and Oregon. We have in the maritime provinces a million people who would derive thoi'- food supplies from American territories if Ihey ponid sell their lumber, potatoes and other articles free of duty there. We have a great market for farm products in the mining and lumber regions of Ontario and (Juebec. If natural products were on the free list, and there was free interchange between the two coun- tries of nil the products of tlic farm, the balance of trade would be very slightly, if at all. In favour of the one country or' the other. Mr. CLANCY. Does the lion, gentleman's propositi ■1 Involve that I>akota and Wash- ington Territory should supply British Co- lumbia rather than our own western pro- vinces ? Jlr. CHARLTOX. I spoke about Wash- ington and Oregon, and not about Dakota. Mr. GOURLBY. With reference to Nov.t Scotia, we would not have the agricultural trash they raise in the United States if It were given to us free. Mr. CHARLTON. Tatrlotlsm would have n good deal to do. of course, with arriving at that decision. Now, after this period of more than thirty years of trade relation such as I have described, we bad a culmination of affairs in 1902 in our trade with Great Bri- tain and with the United States, which I will briefly allude to. Last year our total Imports from the United States were ?129,000,000. In 18m they were $28,794,000. Last year our total exports to the United States were S71, 177,000, an,000. That balance of trade has swallow- ed up our .$67,000,000 of favourable balance with Great Britain and left about $8,000,000 to provide for somewhere else. This is not (. healthy and desirable condition of trade. The United States, year after year, have had enormous balances of trade In their favour, and the result Is they are one of the wealthiest nations in the world ; $600,000,. 000 is no unusual balance In their favour. , I look upon It a8 dlsastrons to our Interests to permit the present condition to continue, These tables then present the following salient points : First, we have an enormous expansion of exports of farm products. Next, we find that Great Britain takes over four-fifths of the farm products of this country. We are dependent from Great Britain for the sale of $83 out of every $100 we raise. Next, we find a great surlnknge in the e-xport of farm products to the United States— a shrinkage of two-thirds of the amount exported In 1806. Then we find there has been nearly a fivefold expan- sion of our Import trade from the United .States since 18C0— from $28,000,000 to $129.- 794,000. We find next that we have, had a stationary export trade with the United States. If we deduct the precious metals we exported to the United States In 1866 In- clndlnf; Inland short returns, $44,000,000 worth, not Including the precious metnls we exported last year of the products of Canada, not Including precious metals, $44,- 825.000 worth. So we have on the one hand an import trade from the United States five-fold greater than In 1866, while our export trade to the United States remained at practically the same amount. We find that In the thirty-six years that have elapsed since 1800, we have Increased our imports from Great Britain $0,370,000, or 23i per cent. It will be Interesting to glance for a rao- Tiient at our free list, which Is a large one. It amounted last year to $84,314,877. Of this amount the United States had $00,879.- 317. of which $6,000,000 was coin and bul- 1 lion. Now, we must take from the United Slates raw cotton, anthracite coal, hides pro- bably, flax seed and some other articles. I'.ut we can reduce that free list by one-half if we desire to do so— reduce It to the ad- vantage of our own Industries and to the disadvantage of American Industries. The United States had 72 per cent of our total free list with the entire world last year— ' rather favourable treatment of a nation ' that has treated us as the United States has i (lone for a generation past. ! Now, a word or two with regard to the ' ir.iport of manufactures. The question may 1)0 raised— It was raised yesterday— of the classification of manufactures Imported. In the tables I have referred to, whether the classification Is entirely right or not, ■ it Is the same In the case of both countries, | f that the comparison must be ^ellihle as though something were taken from or some- thing added to the list for each. The fol- lowing figures show the anionnt of our im- ports of manufactures from Great Hrltaln and from the United States for the vears given : • IMPORTS OF MANUFACTURES. ' Great Britain. United States, i 1S98 J26,243,661 M1.B10,312 i 1599 31,187.387 49.362,776 I 1900 37,328,311 60.473.221 I iJOl 36,469,136 62,643,640 1902 41,675.602 69.536,618 Now, Sir, in the last year, 1902, the manu- factures free of duty from Great Britain amounted to $7,988,810, while the manufac- tures free of duty from the United States amounted to $21,105,092. This latter sum goes to swell that enormous free list of $60,000,000. The Increase in our imports of manufactures from Great Britain in the four years I have quoted, amounted to $15,- 432,000, or 51 per cent, while the increase from the United States was $28,026,000, or 67 per cent. And this increase has gone on, notwithstanding the operation of pre- ferential duties, and tlie United States manufacturers are obtaining a stronger and stronger hold upoi: our market, their natural advantages enabling thom to do so. And all this time the United States have refused to give us the consideration which our liber- ality towards them would naturally call for. ; liberality whioli they have nvaile-l tlieni- 1 selves of to bring about the results I have j shown. ! Mr. CLANCY. I do not wish to Interrupt i the hon. gentleman's (Jlr. Charlton's) argu- j ment, but I am not quite sure whether he proposes to reduce the amount of free goods I coming Into Canada by a system of protec- tion or by a system of reciprocity. 5Ir. CIIAULTON. T am not prepared to say what might be done with the free list under a system of reciprocity. But, under a system of protection, witli a system under which we should have to meet the same condtions as now exist. I would cut that free list in two, and take off as much more as would be possible. I would be governed at all times, necessarily, by our own In- terest If It were our own Interest to ad- mit a class of goods free, I would admit it free. We would look at this primarily from the standpoint of what is best for our- selves, and secondarily from the standpoint of liow we oonld convince the -Vnierican that he had better be ready to grant fair play. Now. with regard to the rate of duties. In every respect the United States seems to have had advantageous conditions of trade. The duties paid last year upon United States goods amount to $15,155,130. This is i:-75 per cent upon the total Import from the Unit- ed States, or 12'54 per cent on the imports en- tered for consumption. The duties paid on the imports of British goods for the same year were 17 04 per cent. The duties on the goods from all other countries were 26-5 per cent. The rate on the goods from all countries, including Great Britain and the United States, was 15-26 per cent. The dutiable goods Imported from the Unlt"d States paid an average of 25-18 per cen ; liie dutiable imports from Great Britain paid an average of 24 per cent, and the dutiable imports from other countries paid an average of 37-79 per cent. This would make the duty on the dutiable imports from Great Britain slightly lower than on those from the United States. The hon. member for Soutli Oxford reminded us last night— 10 M and hla statement was a . jrrect one— that not all the British imports thnt were dutiable were given a dlsorlmlnatlon of 33' nr cent, but that this applied to only abv/ui $28,000,- 000, upon which the dnty amounted to about 19 per cent. This is correct. I have only -o say, in connection with that, thnt the re- duction of duties under the operation of the thirty-three and one third per cent dls- crlminnMon to 19 per cent, is about 8 per cent lower than It ouRht to be. If the dlBcrimlnation were abolished the duty would Ro v.p 8 per cent mid the cry we hnve fro;,, our woollen interests of Insufficient protec- tion would be ended. We have developed in onr nrgumont about this matter the fact that Cnnnda is nn excoUent customer for the United States. The truth !i she Is the third lnrj;i'.st customer fi.r the jrenernl line of exports from the United States, and , t le largest customer for manufactured ; goods exported from that country. If we i compare our standing In this respect with I that of r.atln Anioiiea with Its 00,000,- j fiOO inhabitants, we simll I,e somewhat sur- ! would be clearly deHned. We are either to get fair play from natlont: now treating us unfairly, or we are to meet them with their own weapons. Thnt may not be pro- fitable for the time being, it may intllct upon us a little Inconvenience, It may raise the price of some things a little higher, but In ijiy opinion that Is the true policy to piu'- sne. AVe want to look to ulterior results, and we want to apply ourselves to a line of conduct with something In view that we are aiming f(ir, and that we can Oiily get by awsertlng our rights. Again I refer to the signlticant utterance of the "Inance Minister whore he states that notwithstanding and whatever hla abstract principles may be, we hnve got to take note of what our customers and surromiding na- tions do. nnd have got to be governed t> some extent by the course they pursue. Xow, US I have said, w^ have .ojilt with Germany already. That question uas closed np, wo knew where we stood, we know that wo had received the most unfair nnd over- bearing treatment from the overh.rd of that empire. Wo know we liad to assert our- prlscd with the result of the scrutiny. Last _ . _ _ year the Uiiitod States exported to Moxioo I selves, we have done it, and wo have' done iVlLx''"^'"' "^'"^'■'<^"- '*^''"i '1 pop'ilntion of I it like men ; nnd If the overlord wants to li.000,000, goods to the amount of ?4.5,924.- adopt a retaliatory pollcv and exclude our "n. .1 '^'"''"' "'"'' '■"""'•■'fs almost as clcsoly ! imports from Germany, I would look upon nllled to the United States by geography it with serene indifference ; we would simpiv and natm-o as Canada Is. Last year the i exclude his goods from Canada and lafllct United Statos ex))ortpd to all Sontli Amorica j eight times is much injury upon thnt coun- .'«.!S.(»(4.nO(i worth of goods; nnd to all , try ns we reieive In return, tlio West India Islands. Spani'^'i. Danisli. Xow, it is nooossary to Inquire In a dis- Duteli. Rritish, French— this excludes Cuba i cussion of reciprocity : Is reciprocity dcsira- .■m-1 I'orto Uioo— goods to the value of .$17,- ; bio ? Why. If it Is not desirable, we do not i)20.00(». Tliat is to say. to ail this enormous want t^ waste any time on it. If it is not region fioni tlie nortlicni boundary line of j desirable n-e would simply say to the United Mo.\ico to Cape Horn, oniliiaeing ov.i-v Is- 1 States when they make us overtures : We ami in tlie West India group, excepting | don't want to meet you, we doi t want nnv <.nl'a aid I orto Rico, tlie United States ] reciprocity. We have decided what we exported less than slie exported to Canada, i want t<' do, yon go vonr road and we will liy no less tlinn $19,79(!,000. And, excluding I go onrs ; wo don't eare anything about the \\ est Indies and including all oj Slexio reciprocity. Would that be a wise course and Central and South America, her exports : to pursue ? Mr. Speaker, this continent, with to these countries were less bv $30.814.00s maintained a most dignified attitude Ui this matter. When the commission left Washinfrton In 1S!)9 the assertion was made I)y tlie Canadian head of tiiat commission, the premier of this country, that Canada was not going back to Washington asking for reciprocity again. He said : We have been seeking for Improved trade relations, we know how desirable It is to have au Improvement, we know how much these trade relations could be Improved, we have exiiauated our patience and our resources In the effort to improve thei', and if yon reach the point where you un- derstand tills question and realize that a treaty is desirable, you can intimate tliat fact to us. Well, they have done that. My lion, friend from .St. JIury's, Montreal, says that Senator Kairbank'a letters came very conveniently at this season. What does he mean ? Does lie mean there is collusion between Senator Fairbanks and the Prime Jlinlster of this country ? Does he mean that Senator Fairlianks was employed to write letters to the Prime Minister which give colour to the supposition that tlie com- mission might sit again for the purpose of affording the premier and his government a pretext for deferring action on the tariff ? Does he mean that ? I do not think he does. I do not imagine that he does, but if he does mean that he Is entirely mistaken. These advances have come from tiie American government; they have come from Senator Fairbanks at the instigation of and by tiie direction of the President of the Lnited States— an intimation and an invi- tation to the Canadian government to meet the American commissioners again for tlie purpose of renewing the v otiations that were broken off In Febn 1899. Now, shall the commission mee Is It unneces- sary to call this commission together again 7 Shall we proceed to fix our tariff and Ignore the proliablllty, nay, the certainty of this commission meeting when we shall respond to the invitation of the United States. I should say certainly the commission should meet. If the United States have made over- tures to UB, if they have given us an invi- tation to renew these negotiations, thev have done It for a reason. They have done It because they desire a settlement, they have done It because tbey realise that the position of matters, as It exists to-day be- tween Canada and the United States, Is not desirable and realizing this thoy ask us to meet them for the purpos ' jf entering upon negotiations looking to the possibility I of settlement and adjustment of these ques- ! tlons. We are not warranted in assuming ! that It Is not worth while to accept The i fact that the Invitation Is given, that It Is given In good faith, the very fact that this advance Is made by them with the full i knowledge of the Indignation that exists In I this country In regard to their treatment of I us, with tht full knowledge that we have ' reason to complain, is a sufficient warrant in fact an Imperative reason, wliy we should accept the invitation. ! Now, If we go down, what should be the ; proper basis of an arrangement ? We might as well discuss this matter pretty fully. What should be the basis of the arrangement ; we should enter into, because I am sure that the premier would be glad to know some- thing about public opinion as It relates to , tins matter. What should be the basis of I the arrangement In regard to reciprocity be- ! twcen these two countries. I am accused, : I Iiave seen the ac nsatlon In Conservative l)apors time and time and again, I have ! eard the accusation, that in the course of some speeches I made before chambers of commerce, merchants exchanges and bank- ers' conventions, &c.. In the United States, I have made propositions that were detri- mental and inimical to the interests of Can- nda and tliat I have given away the case. .Mr. GOUlct.EY. Hear, hear. : Jlr. CIIAULTON. The hon. gentleman (.Mr. Gourley) says hear, hear. I will tell tiie iion. gentleman iiow far I have gone. , I liave said that reciprocity In natur.il pro- ducts, so far as my views go, is an essen- ; tiiil feature of any arrangement we may make— no palliatives, no concession upon tills thing and upon that but reciprocity In natural products all along the line. Mr. GOURLEY. It would ruin us In 24 hours. Mr. CHAULTON. Not at all. If we should get to that point the Americans would ask : What would yon give us in return ? We will say : We will abstain from changing ; our tariff so as to apply the process of the strangulation of tlie import trade in our couu- : try. If you give us free trade in natural pro- ! ducts we may possibly, in addition to the re- tention of the moderate features of our tariff now so favourable to you, abolisii the Bri- tish preference, and make your position un- der our tariff laws the same as that occupied I by Great Britain. My hon. friend can i judge as to whether I have given away our case and he can Judge as to whetht • or not we can obtain reciprocity on that bi. .. It will be advantageous to us. I suppose I may he optlialstlc on this snhjert i have ' mingled with American public nun. with the leading American statesmen, l Icnow the 13 beat of the American pulse, : ''blnk the Am- erican people realize that tbey have pur- sued a fortuitous and absurd policy tnwarda Canada for thlrty-flve years, they are pre- pared to adopt a new course, to bring about Improved relations between the United States and Canada, and they are prepared to do what Is fair to consummate that arrange- ment. My hon. frlenc* (Mr. Gourley) says It MTOUld ruin us In twelve months. An hon. MEMBER. In twenty-fonr hours. Mr. CHARLTON. Well, that Is rnther rapid. Mr. GOURLEY. That Is Just a simile, you win understand. Mr. CHARLTON. Yes, of course. AVe fortunately are not left In this matter with- out some criterion to go by, without some experience to guide us, without some de\el- opments In that same line, the resuLs of which may be of service to us, may te.nch us pretty unerringly what the probable out- come of such a poilcy would be. When the American union was formed In 1787, it adopted the policy of free trade between the then thirteen states fouiprlslng the union and that has coutlnuiil to be the pollc.v of that nation from that date to this. From time to time new states were added; from time to time new territory was acquired; llually the bounds of that nation stretched to the Taclflc and to the gulf of Me.vtco and embraced the Mlssisslpl valley; and yet, with all the diversity of climate, of pro- duction, of luterestj that existed in that country, and they &^p world-wide almost; with all the apparent reasons for protecting one section against another; protecting the farmer of New England where he had to struggle to produce crops, against the farmer of Illinois who had but to tickle the soil with n hoe and It laughed with the harvest; notwithstanding all these diversities of con- ditions which my hon. friend would say un- doubtedly required the intervention of the tariff tinker and the protectionist; notwith- standing all this, that ^.'ountry has lived uncK' free trade for a century and a quarter, has prospered under free trade; this great zollverein extending from ocenn to ocean and from the Gulf of Mexico to the Cana- dian boundary, has prosi>ered as no nation has ever prospered. And to-day the do- mestic commerce of that country reaches the ciiormons sir\i of forty billion dollars, sink- ing Into utter Insignificance the foreign trade of any nation in Christendou'. That is the result of free trade, of the free Interchange of natural products; of all products between all the sections of that nation with all their diversities of climate and conditions. Now, I would like to know why the same conditions that apply to the forty-five states of the American union cannot be extended to the seven provinces of the Dominion with the same result. Of course we cannot carry It so far ; we cannot have absolute free trade— at present at least. We must have a tariff on certain things f}r revenue, but we can have absolute free trade in the productions of the soli, and to the extent that we reach out towards free trade, to that extent we will share the blessings that that country haa derived from the practical operation of this principle. Mr. CLANCY. That sounds like unre- stricted reclprociiy Mr. CHARLTON. Yes, It does, and un- restricted reciprocity would bring very good nnittcrlal resulta probably. We are not ready for it but we will go as fur as It In prudent and take half ot the Ion and eu- J>>y tlie prosperl.y a::d the blen .ngs that will come from it. Aiid "w with regard to the mutual Inter- change of natural products which my hon. friend says would ruin us In twenty-four lio'.;i-s. l)ut which "f course is a blmlle. The interchange ot naturnl products In my opin- ion would produce only the most Inconsider- able effect upon the prl.^es in the United States. We want free adniisslon to the Ame- rican market for our farm products nnl our lumber and our ores, and for what reii«!on ? It Is not that we may depress the American prices to the level of our own, but that we may secure t'.i.' American prices ar,d put the difference between the prices we get now with the duty taken from us and the price we would get then. Into our own pockets. That Is what we wani It for. Our exporta- tion of natr al products to the United States is so insignificant and will be so in- slgnlllcaiit in ocmparlson with the great bulk of the products for consumption produced In this country . that very little effect can be producot: It. Take for Instance the article of .-, .,s. Last year we exported 11,- 590,000 dt/.en of eg^s and 2;{7,000 dozen of these went to the United States. One hun- dred and thirty-nine millions and eighty thousand eggs; quite a lot of eggs. We could not Increase that export 50 per cent if we were to try. How much would that amount to In the United States. Why, Mr. Speaker, it would amount to iess than two eggs per annum for each Inhabitant of the United States; one omelette a year. That would have a very disastrous effect on American prices would It not. Why It never would be known; never. I have no time to go into the entire list, but you may go rlsht through the list of farm prof^u<:t3 that may be exported to the United Siat'-s for consumption in that country and their reliitlvD volume as compared with the pro- duction of the United States In the same line of articles would not be greater than In the case of eggs. The whole thing Is a bug-bear. The American farmer is fright- ened about Canadian competition which he has no reason to fear at all. The Canadian farmer, he need not be frightened about American competition because he Is a pro- ducer and an exporter. Now with regard to the (lucstion wc were dlscu; -ing a moment ago; about the con- cessions we might make to the United States in return for free trade in natural products. < 1 < I H i 14 A« I snkl then I repeat now : TUot I should RtrenuouRly take the Kround that we should iiinkD no more (v.icegstona; that we have made nil the concessions that can be reason- ably asked for. The only thing I would hold out as an inducement would be, nnt the promise of further concessions, but the nssurnncf that we will withdraw what we have done If we do not get fair play; that In place of a free list of ijitJO.OOO.OOO we will make It !F30,(XM».000; that In place of buying if(i9,()00,()»K) of; manufactures, we would m:i« nnfaeture $40,000,000 or $50,000,000 of them In our iiwn country, and tlr« would be the Inducement that the AmerU n would need to convince him that he had better adopt the scheme that we propounded. Mr. GOURLEV. Would the hon. gentle- man allow me to ask a question? Mr. CHARLTON'. Certainly. Mr. OOURLEY. Why Is It necessary for us in this Canadian " parliament to be for ever disprncing ourselves by appealing :o these people acMss the way, who have treated us llije a lot of desperadoes for the last twenty years ? Mr. CHAUI/rox. We are not appeulini,' to these people; these people have appealed to us. They have sent us an Invitation to meet them; we arc talking that over; we are arrivlns at a decision as to what we shall say wlicn we meet theui; how far we shall go and where we will stop. .^^r. GOUULEY. They w.-uld kiek us from the continent to-day if they could. .Mr. CHARLTON. We have reached that point where they are appeallnpr to us; where they have realized that they are sacrificing their opportunities and have pursued a poliev wliich has not l>eeii a just policy, and that the day has come when our own action will deprive tliein of the ailviiiitases tliev nil<;lit enjoy unless they give In fair neighbourly treatment. .Now, .Mr. Speaker, we talk al)OUt protec- tion. I am opposed to the sacrificing of anv existing Interests in Canada. I want to see our manufacturing interests prosperous, and I will go Just as far as my hon. friend from Xova Sciitia if I cannot get fair pliiy. I Mr. GOURLEY. Xo you won't. . I Mr. CIL\RLTOX. Hut. I have a broad enough view of this case to realize, tliat in : the United States since 1801 that nation has been constantly and consistently pursuing' a policy for building up a home liiarket, and ' tliat the result of that policy is that they ! have created a home market wliich bears a ! proportion to their population greater than j we could crwte by the most stringent sys- ■ tern of protection In fifty years. Now, Sir, If we could with one stroke of the pens of the commissioners appointed by this coun- try and by the United States, if we co ild secure access to that market which for fiftv years has cost the people of tiie Unlten States untold millions, would It not be to our advantage to get It. I think It would. I think It would be just as good a scheme as to go through, with all the pain, and sweat, and toll, and blood letting that that nation has gone through since 1801 In creat- ing that market. And now, Mr. Speaker, a few words about the transportation question and the market situation. We have some very productive wheat fields In the North-west, and a crop of Bl.\ty million bushels was garnered last year from less than one hundredth part of the area of that country adapted to the growth of that grain. Now, we are confronted with the problem, how we are to afford that country an outlet to the markets of the world, and whether I we shall throw any Impediments In the way ! of the producers of that country reaching any ui^rket they may desire. The western farmer will raise wheat for sale, and, like a shrewd business man, he will want to sell that wheat wherever he can find a customer. Ho will be able shortly to raise all the wheat that he can find custonr rs for; so that it ! would be the height of folly to interfere ! with his efforts to reach any market he de- j sires to reach. We want to secure the i carrying trade of that country, but it Is in- cumbeut upon us to endeavour to do so by fair competition. We do not want to resort to export duties or other unjustifiable re- pressive measure."". In order to force the volume of the proauctlons of the North-west through particular elianuels. There are going to l>e hundreds of thousands of sett- lers from 'he United States In that country, and they will naturally resent the Idea that they cannot sell wheat wherever they can find a sale for It. They will not have the prejudice which my hon. friend (Mr. Gour- ley) entertains against dealing with Areri- cans. They will know that the friend'. \hey left across the line are of the same blood as the people of the country they Inhabit and they will want to trade with them, be- cause It will be to their advantage to do so. Now, Sir, there are seveml reasons why we had better let them do so. In fact, we cannot prevent It, unless we Impose arbi- trary restrictions of some kind, such as export duties. The Aniericaus have the game In their own Land. They can remove the duty on grain, and in my opinion they wil! shortly do it. The western miller de- sires access to our sources of supply. I am told that the millers at Minneapolis can handle forty million bushels of Manltobo and western wheat. Mr. Sl'ROULE. Are you aware that the mills at Minneapolis have stopped grinding ? Mr. CHARLTON. I am aware of that, but the little difllculty about freight rates will be adjusted before long, and if not, they can send the wheat down to Buffalo. 'Ibis wheat will be wanted by the millers at Minneapolis, or wherever they may be, first, to mix it with the softer grades grown in the United States, because it will be ne- 13 coBsary to bnve a certain percentnge of Manitoba bard wheat for tbat purpose. Then, the American uillllug Interest want access to that market for the purpose of gtltfenhiK prices— for the purposo of Intro- duciuK there the system that Is In force in t' •■ United States. American millers tell me that wheat from Canada and Argentina, when It goes to market must be sold, as there are no facilities for holding It. They are constantly met by competition of this kind, which lowers prices ; and they want to get Into this market with their hundreds of millions of capital for the purpose of competing with the Canadian buyer, for the purpose of bnying the i^raln at higher prices than It would otherwise commoiid, In order that they may hoM that grain or the flour Into which it Is ground until they are ready to sell It ; in that way controlling the market, and preventing repressive bear operations, which te* '1 to bring nbout l«wor prices. In both of t..ese rases it is the Interest of the North-west and In the Interest of Cimnda tlint they should get Into that market. For these reasons, free trade In wheat and the Introduction of American competition In the purchase of wheat In the North-west, would bo worth more to the producers in that country than the removal of the British preference of four per cent In their favour. The present value of the American market, aside from wheat. Is relative' small; but Its prospective value Is almost limitless. ClmnginK conditions in the United States are wortliy of consideration. First of all, there Is the graduu! failure of tlieir wlip.nt lands. I can remember the time when the chief crop of Illinois was wheat, when enoruions shipments were made, when the elevators of Chicago were bursting with the products of the Illinois wheat fields. To-dny there is not enough wheat raised in Illinois to pro- vide bread for one-half the Inhabitants of the state. The farmers have gone out of the business; their wheat fields linvo be- come exhausted; their crops are of another kind. The same holds good with regard to lown, with Its two and a half millions of In- habitants. The same will soon hold true of Mliniesota, of the two Dakotas, of Kansas, i The wheat production of these states is di- minishing, the soil Is becoming exhausted; ! and while the wheat production of the United j States Is growing less and less, the popula- \ tlon of the country is rapidly increasing, [ and the urban population out of all propor- tion to tlie rural population. Take, for In- , stance, the North Atlantic division, ns it is 1 onlled— comprising the states of New Eng- | land. New York, New Jersey and Pennsyl- '■ v.inia, with a total population, according to i tlie last census, of twenty-one millions. Of this population 33,600,000 are In towns of ! 4.000 Inhabitants and over. In the state of ■ ■ ' -7 York, out of a population of 7,268,000, ! 5 .'6,000 live In towns of 4,000 Inhabitants 1 or over. Here, Mr. Speaker, are these vast | centres of population, uve millions and more In the single state of New York, thirteen and one-half millions In the North Atlantic di- vision, living In towni of 4,000 and up- wards, and the population rapidly Increas- ing, and the provinces of Ontario and Que- bec nearer to those centres of population than any other producing region on the con- tinent. To reach these centres the farmers of Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa, have either to cross our territory or to go past It on the south side of the lake; and our North-western fanners will have Just as good facilities for reaching those centres as the American farmers of the far west. This is a question the Importance of which we only begin to realize when we come • study It carefully, In the light of all ^' ia'!s;' not taking the superficial view tl some take, or .'he prejudiced view of those who think It Is beneath the dignity of a Canadian to deal with an American at all; but look- ing at the facts from a common sense atand- polnt, with a realization of the great possl- blllties that lie before us In the near future. 'I'hc United States will soon become a food, l.nporting nation. Its vast manufacturing Interests are being developed with wonder- ful rapidity. Its urban population Is Increas- ing out of all proportion t'^^ Its rural popu- lation, and the time Is near at hand when that country will require from Canada or other countries, a portion of Its food supply. These two countries are geographically one. Our North-west is geogiapliically a portion of the Mississippi valley. Mr. GOURLEY. I dtny that. Mr. CHAULTON. The province of Que- bec Is geographically as nearly .illled to the New England states sis to the mouth of the St. I-awrence. Mr. GOURLEY. The United States is geographically an annex of Canada. Mr. CHARLTON. The province of On- tario has Its nearest route to the sea across American territory. Jlr. GOURLEY. No man who studies the map would make such a statement. Study the map of North America, and you will find that the United States Is geographically an annex of Canada. Mr. CHARLTON. Then the annex has got a little ahead of the main body. The two countries, I repeat, are geographically one. Mr. GOURLEY. Never. Mr. CHARLTON. The very boundaries between the two countries for a part of the distance which separate them, by the im- pediment of physical nature, serve to bind them together as a great highway of com- merce from the point where the St. Law- rence reaches the American territory, to Duluth. Our North-west is geographically a part of the Mississippi valley, a part of the same country that sweeps up from the Mississippi to the Arctic ocean, a great con- i; w tinental ilope to tbe north without intemip- tton of mountain range, and which can be reached moat conveniently and economi- cally by railway communication from tbe head of Lake Superior at Duluth and from St. Paul and Chicago. This be- ing the case there are tbeae great natu- ral reaources which luvlte communica- tion, which Invite trade, and which Invite the breaking down of the barrlerg that oxliit between the two countries, and the absurd prejndlcea, aucta aa arc entertained by my hon. friend who Interrupted me a few min- utes ago. Tboro Is In progrpss nt present a great movement for Interesting Amerlenii capital In Industrial and financial operations In the Dominion. I have friends In the west. I hear from them frequently, and I lenrii that the movement which la set on foot for removal to the Cauadlnn North-west pro- mises to become an exodus. I hear that the banks of Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Neb- raska, Minnesota and the Dakotas are Ih>- Ing depleted of their deposits by men who are Invi-sling this money In the Canadian North-west. Those who can sell their Illinois farms for $100 an acre, tbelr Iowa farms for $10 an acre, and tliclr Kansas and Nebraska farms for |40 or $.50 an acre, and Invest this money In tbe Canadian North-west In land equally as good or better at f5 or $10 an acre, are appreclntinB the advantages of that exchange. They are selling tbelr lands and flocking to our Xortli- west by tbe thousands. Tbey are a class of settlera who understand the conditions and are famllinr with the work tliey liave to perform. They buve gone tlirnugb tlic experience once and can go through It again. And a farmer with a half a dozen sons, can sell his farm In tbe United States, and with tbe proceeds give each ol bis sons Just as large a farm In Canada as the one lie left. I tell you. Sir, we are having a movement In the investment of American capital In our country of which we do ni)t realize the magnitude. And we want to place ourselves In a position to promote and avail our.selvps of the results of this movement, nnd notbli.^ win promote It more rapidly than tbe ndup- tlon of reciprocity between the two co\in- tries. Our vast resources ore attracting attention. The period of narrowness and expluslveness and bitterness and Ignorance, wblfb characterized certain portions of tlie public in both of these countries is p.TSSing away, and in place of it Is comlns ii bro.nder spirit, a Catholic spirit, a spirit of toleration, a spirit of mntual conciliation which will bear excellent results In the Interests of both countries. New conditions, vast possibilities confront us. We hardly stop to realize tlieir magnitude. When this North-west, where hundreds of thousands are to settle in the near fnture, with Its three hundred millions acres of arable land, of which three millions are now under cultivation, this North-west that can Increase Its production a hundred- fold—when the reaources of this country are developed, when Its fleldi wave with harveati, when Ita surface Is covered by farms and towns and cities, then we will see the fruition of the promise we have to- day, and those who have the prescience to look Into the future with a comprehension of what Is coming, will see tbelr dreams i realized, and a great nation established on i the northern portion of this continent. We I will then look back to the past— If we I live to see that day— and wonder at the I narrowness and littleness and bitterness j displayed by people In the old days before > the broad horizon had opened before ! them. NevertbelesB, so long as the pres- ! ent American tariff conditions continue, this rosy picture will not be realised as soon as It otherwise would. If we cnunot get a treaty such as I think we can, we have simply to do what I said would be the alternative We have simply to mould Into shape our own resources, work out one own destiny, and build up as we best may the superstructure i of our own nation. And whatever may be i the outcome, %vbether we get that mitigation ' 1 of trade conditions which we hope for, or I whether we find that these trade con(' tlons j are to be perpetuated, I do not apprehend I tliat we will And Liberals In this House I seriously disagreeing. There Is a good deal of latitude of opinion allowed here, and the government, while it permits this, will I 111 my opinion, be confronted by a condition t of things that will result In popular demand i of such volume and potency in connection ' with this question of trade relations ns will I lead the government to bow to the wishes I of the people. We will mould our course ! by the developments that are confronting i us, that are near at hand, and I repeat, I I approve most highly the course of the gov- i ernment In waiting the development of ' events. In waiting the few months that will I enable us to Judge definitely and absolutely what Is the proper course to be taken. Canada desires to participate In the com- mercial activities of this continent. If we can obtain this privilege we shall have to shape a destiny of our own. The parting of the ways Is Just ahead. Providence will decide the matter. We cannot tell what the decision will be, or upon which of the paths we shall enter, whether upon the path of participation of the benefits of free and liberal trade relations covering Anglo-Sax- on America, or the path of exclusion, imita- ! tion of the policy of the other country, and retaliation upon the-i f<-r what they have perpetuated and Imposed upon us. Let '. us await the future calmly, resolutely. If you will, without fear or care as to what the ; result shall be, determined that we will be . governed by those conditions and develop- ments, and will view from a patriotic stand- point whatever, in our belief, the necessity of our country requires from us In tbe line of action. TfJ