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SPEECH ON THB CONFEDERATION OF THE PR0Y1NCE8. Ma.DUNKINsaid — Mr. Speakee, almost every one who has yet spoken in this debate has begun with some expression of his feeling of enibarrasBuient. For my own part, I should be glad if I could begin in some other way, but I oonfoss that I cannot. For I certainly never did rise to address this House, or any other public body, under a feeling of such oppressive embarrassment as I experience at this moment. It is impossible for me, occu- pying the position in which I now stand, not to feel that I am opposed to powerful odds, and that (here is a sort of foregone conclu- sion, here, against the views I desire to impress upon the House. It is impossible for me not to feel that the considr rations to which I have to ask the attention of the House, are so many and so complex, that uo sort of justice can possibly be done them within the limits of my capacity to speak, or of yours to listen. The interests at stuke, too, are so large — so much larger than ever were at stake in any question which has yet been brought under the notice of this House, and the ditfic^lties arising out of the question are so formidable, owing in no small mea- sure to what I must call the many reticences with which this scheme has been laid before us, and the anibiguities of expression which everywhere characterize it, as to tax seriously the courage of those who may attempt to discuss it. I feel, besidee, that I am entirely cut oflF from that description of remark which most of all tends to make one's speech pleasant to listen to ; for I can- not prophecy smooth things, or dilate on the marvels of progress to result frou) Con- federation in the future. There is a charac- ter of hurry, too, impressed on the whole style of this debate ; everybody feela so iinpatioiit, that one can scarcely hope to express his views fully, as he would wish aud ought, on this vast scheme. I have even the feeling that my capacity for exertion is not up to its ordinary standard. I address the House in a state of health that renders me less capable than usual of physical exertions. I must, therefore, beg honorable members to make allowance for these circum- stances surrounding >uy position ; believing me that what I wish to do is to present as briefly as I can, and as truthfully as I can, my own deep seated convictions on the ques- tion now before the House. (Hear, hear.) So strongly, Mr. Speaker, do I feel my inability to discuss this scheme as I could wish, that I almost must throw myself on the forbearance of Lon. members — that I hardly can help saying I should be in danger of shrinking from the duty of addressing you, but for the recollection that time and again, I have known, in cases of contest almost or quite as discouraging as this, that " the race has not been to the swift nor the battle to the strong" — that time and again I have known those who went into suca con- tests with the best hopes of success, disap- pointed in their expectations. I do know, and I know that others know — I believe it to be the general conviction of those whom I address to-night, as regards this question, that whatever of popular feeling there may seem to be in favor of the views I have to combat, is anything but the deliberate result of a well-considered examination of the whole subject — is a feeling of most sudden growth, and of most passing ohar- acter. (Hear, hear.) Before I go further, I may be permitted distinctly to accept the challeuge^which has been more than once thrown out on the other side as to the man- ner in which this question ought to be discussed. I freely admit and sincerely maintain that it ought not to be discussed utlieiwico than as a great question, to be considered entirely on a large view of ^its 4 merits. It is not a question of party, it is not a question of persons, it is not a ques- tion of merely local, or class, or passing in- terest, and it is not to be met by any of those passing appeals which are too often resorted to. It is not to be settled upon any ground of mere theory, or by any criticism of mere details. It requires indeed to be taken up at once as a question of principle, and also as a question of detail, involving a multi- tude of detaila; and there must necessarily be a careful criticism of such details The question really presented is this : ° on the whole, viewing them collectively, are the details involved in this great scheme such as to oommeDd the scheme itself to our appro- bation, or are they not? (Hear, hear.) I pledge myself that I will discuss the ques- tion from that point of view. I wiil do my utmost to avoid mere passing or personal allusions. I will try to tread the dangerous ground before me without arousing danger- ous feelings. I do not know that I can suc- ceed, but at least I will make the effort. This, however, I am bound to repeat at the outset, that no one can do justice to a question like this, and start with the idea of at all ignoring details. Here is a measure proposed for our acceptance, embodied iu scvonty-two resolu- tions, and which resolutions affirm a great many more than seventy-two propositions, connected with almost every principle known to have reference to the theory and practice of popular government. I say it is a scheme which is as complex and as vast as one can well imagine, and declamation about first principles can be of no real use in its dis- cussion — can avail only to mislead iu refer- ence to it. We have to deal with no mere abstract question of a nationality, or of union or disunion, or of a Federal as opposed to a Legislative union. It is idle to talk .vaguely about the maintenance of British connection, or to go into magnificent speculations about the probable results of independence, or blindly to lirge this sclieme as a sure preventative of annex- ation to the United States. These cheap and eusv generalities are thoroughly uureli- auie. The only question is, how is this plao, in its entirety^ going to work? And this question is one which is not easy to answer ; it is one requiring much patience, and a close examination of details. It is the question which, if the House will lend me its attention, I will endeavor to discuss to the extent of my ability. (Hear, hear.) \ may furthci take leave to say at starting, that I do not approach this question from any new point of view whatever. Always I have been, and now I am, a unionist in the strictest and largest sense of the term. I desire to per- petuate the union between Upper and Lower Canada I desire to see developed, the largest union that can possibly be developed (I care not by what name you call it) between all the colonies, provinces, and dependencies of the British Crown. I desire to maintain that intimate union which ought to subsist, but which unfortunately does not subsist as it ought, between the Imperial Government and all those dspendenoies. I nm a unionist, who especially does not desire to see the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada disunited S!o my mind, this scheme does not at all present itself as one of union ; and if hon. gentle- men opposite will admit the truth, they will acknowledge that, practically, it amounts to a disunion between Upper and Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) I confess that I am irrecon- cileably opposed to that portion of the scheme. I repeat I do not care to see Upper and Lower Canada more dissevered than they are ; on the contrary, I wish to see them brought into closer union ; and far from regarding this scheme as cementing laore closely the connection of these pro- vinces with the British Empire, I look upon it as tending rather towards a not distant disunion ot these provinces from the British Empire. (Hear, hear.) My posi- tion as regards this scheme is that of one who desires to see this union perpetuated, and not of one who would contemplate a state of disunion between any of the componeut parts of the British Empire. I hold that proper means ought to bo taken to prevent our disunion from the British Empire and absorptioa into the United States, and that this scheme by no means tends that way. I have no fancy for democratic or republican forms or iniititu- tions, or indeed for revolutionary or political noveties of any sort. The phrase of " politi- cal creation " is no phrase of mine. I hold that the power to create is es much a higher attribute than bt-jougs to man, in the politi- cal world, as iu any other department of the universe. All wc can do is to attend to and develope the ordinary growth of our institu- tions ; and this growth, if it is to be healthy at all, must bo s ,ow. There must be the same slow, steady change in political matters, ^ which ana^ers to the growth visible in the physical world. I do believo in this gradual development of our institutions, but I do not believe in any of tho!?e violent and sudden changes which have for their object the creation of something entirely now. I fear this sohotuc is just of the character to pre- vent that slow, gradual, healthy development which 1 would wish to see steadily carried out. If I could be astonished at any- thing in politics, Mr. SrEAKEa, I should be astonished at the attempt which has been made by some honorable gentlemen on the Treasury benches to represent the state of the public feeling on this subjectas not having that mere sudden, sensational, unreliable character which £ have ascribed to it. Long forgotten expressions of individual opinion ; clauses said to have formed part of bills not to be found, and not known to have been even drawn ; motions threatened but never made, the small party fe cings of past times, from before the days of the Oaniida Trade Act downwarls, have been pressed into ser- vice to meet the exigencies of a hard case. Well, I shall not follow out that lino of argument: it is not worth while. We all know that, from the time of the union of Canada, at all events, until very lately in- deed, nothing like serious discussion ot the propriety or impropriety of a Federal union, or of any union at all, of the aggregate of these British American Provinces, has ever so little occupied the public minif. I will here go back merely to 18.58, when the sixth Parliament was alecttd, and from that time bring under review, as rapidly as 1 can, such few points of our political history as are relevant to shew that this is the fact ; although, indeed, argument to establish it is scarcely necessary. At the election ul" 1857- '58, what really were the issues before the country '(" They can be easily stated. I take the rimmi, in fact, from the an- nouncements of th3 Globe, the organ of the great popular party of Upper I'iinuda at that time montuming not every- thing, but everything at all material. The great demand ol' the then Upper Canada Opposition, which gave the key-note to the whole political controversies of the time, was representation according to population, irrespectively of the dividing lino between Upper and Lower Canada. That was urged as involving everything. It was urged for the sake of all thu rest, and as sure to bring about all the rt'st, that was demanded by tli" party. It was to enable them to carry out their opposition to what were called sectarian grants, their opposition to the holding of land in mortmain for sectarian uses, their opposition to separate schools on a sectarian basis. It was urged for the avowed purpose of obtaining uniform legislation in the future for the two sections of the province, and also what was spoken of as the assimilation of the existing institutions of the two sections of the province, but which was meant to be an assimilation of those of Lower (Canada to those of Upper Canada much more than of those of Upper Canada to those of Lower Canada. (Hear, hear.) It was urged with the view of obtaining what was called free-trade, that is, an anti- Lower Ciinadian commercial policy. It was urged with the view of obtaining the settle- ment of the North- West ; in other words, the relative aggrandizement of Upper Cana- da. It was urged, also, no doubt, with the view of obtaining what was called adminis- trative reform — the driving from power of a set of men who were alleged, for various reasons, to bo unworthy of holding it. But the great questions of measures above alluded to came first; those as to the mere men, second. (Hear, hear.) The grand object was declared to be to obtain an Upper Canadian preponderance of representation on the floor of this House, in order to put an end to everything like sectarian grants, the holding of lands in mortmain and separate schools, to render uniform our legislation, to assimilate our institutions, to carry outan anti- Lower Canadian commercial policy, and to secure the North- West for the aggrandize- ment of Upper Canada. In this way the question of Upper Canada against Lower Canada was unmistakably raised What must have been, what could not fail to be, the result of an appeal of that kind ? It was easy to foresee that there would be returned In Upper Canada a majority in favor of these demands, and in Lower Canada an overwhelming majority against them. I do not go into this to raise the ghost of past animosities ; I am merely showing what cannot be denied — that no one at that time spoke of or cared for this magnificent idea of the union of the provinces, by Confederation or otherwise. (Hear, hear.) The session commenced. Those who had the advantage or disadvan- tage of sitting in that Parliament that aession will remember the tremendous contrast there was between all those debates which had refer- S^jfTtvwmiHWtyki If s enoe to this class of subjeotb, and the one single debate wbioh was attempted, but oould not be made to take place, on the question of the Confederation of the Provinces. With all his ability — and there are few abler men than the hon. gentleman who undertook at that time to bring that (]|ue8tion before the House — with all his ability, and the most earnest eifort on his part to press it on the attention of the House, be oould scarcely obtain a hearing. No one cared for the matter ; and it was felt by every one that such was the case. Soon after, a ministerial crisis took place. A new government came in for a few hours, and started a policy. But that policy, wain, was not this policy. It did not touch this question. (Rear, near.) It was pro- posed, indeed, to deal n ith that question of representation by population by applying some system of checks or guarantees, doing or trying to do something that might lessen the objection of Lower Canada to a change urged forward as that had been. But that was all. That government fell — fell instant- ly — and another was formed in its place. And the present Finance Minister, the hon- orable member for Sherbrooke, who, with all his ability, had not been able to obtain a serious hearing for his proposal of Confeder- ation of the provinces, going intc the now government, induced his colleagues to come before tho House and the country^ with that as a professed portion of their policy. I jaay be pardoned, perhaps, for a single word here of personal reference, for saying, en pauant, that when that idea was thuf Droached (as it was by a Government of which I was as firm a supporter as auy man in the House), I did not fail to make it known, that if ever it should be presented to the House as a practical meaiiure by that Government, I should cease to be (so far as it was concerned) one of such supporters. (Hvar, hear.) That was not tt)e irst time I had thought of it. It had long before been a matter of study with me ; and all the anxious reflection I have ever been able to give it, bafl only had the result of strength- ening my convictions ngainst it every day. But how was this idea then brought for- ward ? Tentatively, and just to neutralize the scheme which the Bbown-Dorion Ad- ministration had hinted to the country. The one fire was tu burn out another's burn- ing. (Heur, hear.) The plan of that Government was to make propositions to h« Imperial Government and to the gov- ernments of tho Lower Provinces. But how ? If you want to gain an object, you put that object before those to whom yon propose it in tho way most likely to induoo them to say yes. This scheme was suggest- ed to the Imperial Government, and to tho people and governments of tho Lower Prov- inces, precisely in the way most calculated to induce them to say no. We went and told them, " We are in such a state of embarrassment, wo have political questions which so trouble and bother us, that we do not know if we can get along at all, unless you will bo so kind as to come into this union with u?" (Hear, hear.) It was just as though I were in bu-siness, and went round to half a dozen capitalists, telling them, " I have got into debt ; my business is e:ono to the dogs ; I have no business capacity ; help me by going into partnership with me, or I am ruined." (Hear, hear) If the object had beco not to carry it, it docs appear to mu that those gentlemen could uot havo tiikeii a better mothod of accomplishing that object. And we saw this — that juiit so soon as it was found that the Lower FroviueeH did not, as under the circumstances they could not, say yes to a proposal of thiii kind, and that the Imperial Government let tho matter drop, our Administration let it drop too. We never heard another word about it The despatches were laid on our table in 1859, but nobody a^ked a question about them. The child was still-born, and no one troubled himself about its want of baptism. We went on with our old ques- tions — representation by population ; Upper Canada against iiower Canada ; measures, to a great extent ; men also, to a ^reat and increasing extent. And we quariclled and fought about almost everything, but did not waste a thought or word upon thia gigantio question of the CoufederatioFi of these pro- vinces. (Hear, hear.) In a little while we drifted into another crisis — that ot 1862. And from the time uf that crisis, and the formation of the Macdonald-Sicotte Administration, down to the time when the present Administration was, last summer, brought into it8 present shape, tho one prominent demand made upon political parties and political men everywhere was, to set aside tho older questions ol' measures, and occupy ourselves very much more — not to say exclusively — with the question of men. (Hear, hear.) I am not blaming honorable gentlemen ; I am not raising the quefltion whether they were right or wrong in taking that course. They may have been the purest patriots, the most farseeing statesmen the world has known, for ought I care. What I say is merely this, that whether for good or evil, whether wisely or unwisely, tne fact is, that the public mind was not occupied in the leaat with this Confederation question. After having fought a long time, mainly about measures, and secondarily about meu, we were all suddenly called upon, in 1862, to consider nothing but the (question of the men who were to do everything right, and to settle everything fairly and honestly, and so forth. Representation by population was un- mistakably, for a time at least, laid upon the shelf, declared to be secondary, almost unim- portant. It had been half shelved some time before ; then, it was wholly shelved. It was hardly taken down from the shelf in 1868, when the Maodonald-Dobion Gov- ernment merely put it back to the same place, which it had long occupied to no purpose of a practical character undor the Cartikr-Macdonald Administration. (Hear, hear.) Such, then, was the state of affairs — nobody thinking or caring about this great question, until last Session of Parliament, when the hon. member for Scuth Oxford, the present President of the Council, moved for and obtained a commit- tee on the subject of constitutional changes generally. Certainly that hon. gentleman did a very clever thing, in embodying in his motion extracts from the unfortunate defunct dispatch of Messrs. Cartier, Qalt and Ross. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— It was a fortunate despatch — unfortunate for you, but fortunate for us. Mr. DUNKIN— It is an old proverb that says " He laughs well who laughs last." Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— I ex- pect to laugh the last. Mr. DUNKIN— No doubt. But I do not care to joke in a matter which I think of a very serious character ; and, seriously r>peaking, I think the hon. gentleman is very wrong. We have yet to see, in the first place, whether the thing is done, and then, if it is done, whether it succeeds Hon. Mr. McGEE— " If 'twere done, 'twere well 'twere done quickly." Mb. DUNKIN— The Minister of Agri- culture is too good a ShakspeariaD to need to be reminded that the thing to be done in that case was a bomothing verv bad. The hon. gentleman is welcome to all he can make of his quotation, — " If 'twore done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly." To return, ho#eve7. It was clever, undoubt- edly clever^ in the hon. member for South Oxford to quote from the despatch of these hon. gentlemen — then, by the way, in oppo- sition to the then Government and to himself — an expression of opinion almost coinciding with his own. He carried his committee. No one made any grelt objection to it, I have been told that I am guilty of some sort of inconsistency, af '«r having voted for that committee, in now opposing this measure. The sequitur is hard to see. I did certainly speak and vote for it, but on the express ground that I believed it would do no sort of harm, and that, on the contrary, it might have the good effect of leading other hon. fentlemen to the sober conclusion at which had long before arrived myself. I there- fore had no objection to the committee, and I sat on k. I am not going to reveal what have been called the secrets of the commit- tee. As in many other like oases, there was mighty little in them. Owing to accidents, wholly ssido from this question of Confeder- ation, the report of the committee was pre- sented on the very night that vote happened to be given, indirectly adverse to the Taohe- Maodonald Administration. The report itself was an accident. All the allusion there was in it to Federation of any sort, found its way there at the lust moment and unexpect- edly. It is no violation of oonhdence to say that it was even voted against by the leader of this House, the Attorney General for Upper Canada, the uow leading advocate of the present scheme. That fact is on the printed record. It was voted against, also, by the members for Cornwall and West El- gin. There were five other members, of whom I am sorry I was one, who were absent ; had I been there, unquestionably my vote would have been against it. (Hear, hear.) And, Mr. Speaker, those who were in this House at the time that report was made, will remember pretty well the more than cool indifference with which it was here received, little Or nothing, after all, as it amounted to. Well, this vote in the House thus following, the ( the bond." We hear of a ministei of the own in oue place, ad- dressing his neighbo.j,and telling them they may depend on it, that when lier Jlajesty comes to make the selection, the utmost res- pect »vill be paid to the lights and privileges of tlie elected niemlers, so that their elected member will have the fairest chance of be- coming a life member of the Confederate Legislative Council In another place, on the other hand, we hear from another minis- ter of the Crown that those gentlemen who hold patents of appoimmeut for life may feel quite as safe, for certainly their claim to be retained in their present pnsitiob i.- .sure to have full weight. Further, in Lower Canada, each loe»''ity is told that it may rest satisfied it will not be overlooked, for each is to be ropresiiiied in the Legislative Council by a gentleman residing or holding property in it ; and both origins and both creeds alike are thus to have represenUition and full pro- tection. Another point upon which tiicre has been a like pleasant sort of ambiguity kept up, is as to who are to make the future Dominations to this Legislative Council. Viewing this part of the suhenie a'j amatterof principle, one would have thought that these future DomiuationB must be made on the Federal principle. It was not expressly so stated ; it is not (as we are at last here told) it is not so meant j but till we were so told, everybody "ivho thought one way said that the resolutions meant it to be that way, and all who thought the other way conveniently found the resolutions to justify their \ ay of thinking. Well, turning then to matters which aflfect this House, the same sort of thing is still observ- able. Keprescntation by population is given to meet the grand demand of Upper (y'auada ; but the people of Lower Canada are assured, in the same breath, that it will not hurt them ; that their institutions and privileges are made perfectly sale ; that they will even have as many uiemuers in the Lower House as before, and that they will, in a variety of ways, be really better off than ever. A delightful ambiguity is found, too, upon the point as to who will make the future apportionments of the constituencies. The leader of the Government, in explaining the scheme the other night, admitted that the decennial revisions of our representation districts are really not to be left to the local legislatures, but are to be dealt with alto- gether by the Federal Legislature. Till then most people, J believe, had held the contrary ; but all had admitted the text cf the resolutions to be equivocal, and each party had of course interpreted them as it wished. The postponement of the local constitutions is of the same cUaracter. Everyone is given to understand that the thing will be made to work to the satis- I'action nf all ; each is promised that he .shall have it as he wants. Those who hold to the principle of responsible govern- ment, as commonly understood, in the local administrations are, of course, told to expect a lieutenant-governor, witn u cabinet, tiUvi, presumably, two branches of a local legislature. Those who would have two legislative bodies, without a responsible ministiy, are told that very well it may be so Whoever prefers one ' ''rislative budy, liears that it is beyond a doubt th'Te ver)i well may only be one; and those again who, even with one House, do not wish to see responsible goveiniueut in the provinces, are assured that the machinery is likely to be very simple ; that each province will proba- bly have a lieutenant-governor, with a few heads of needed departments, and one House, and that so, no doubt, the affairs of each pro- vince can be managed most eoonomioally and .->'- 11 to the entire satisfaction of all. The appoint- moni of lieutenant-governors is again a bait, and perhaps not a small one for more than a few of our public men. The power of disallowance of local bills, and also that of reserving tacm for the sanction of the Gen- eral Government, are on the one hand represented as reiJities — powers that will really be exercised by the General Govern- ment to restrain improper local legislation — to make everything safe for those who want a Legislative rather than a Federal union j but on the other band, to those who do not want a legislative union, it is represented that they mean nothing at all, and will never be exercised. (Hear, hear.) Uniformity of laws again is to be given to all the pro- vinces, if they desire it, except Lower Ca- nada; but by a peculiar provision uf the Constitution, although nothing can be done by the General Parliament to render the laws uniform, withoat the consent of the provinces concerned, it is stipulated that it shall be impossible for Lower Canada, even though she should desire it, to have her laws uniform with those of the other provinces. So, too, with regard to education in Upper and Lower Canada ; the provision is to be made, no one knows how, for everybody, and all are gunvanteed some sort of satisfaction. It is true we are tot told what the promised measures on this head are to ba ; whether they really will giva increased facilities to the minorities in the two sections for the education of their youth in their own way or not ; but we are to take the promise as all right, and everybody is required to be content. Turning to the financial featuros of the scheme, we find it roundly stated that all the debts and liabilities of each province are to be assumed by the General Govern- mer ; but if we look again into details we find that — no, they are not. There is a sometliiiig here, too, beyond what appears on the face of things. Upper and Lower Canada are each tj stay burthcned with some unstated parts of the debt of Canada, aad the other provinces are to have LonnsoioH unstated and variant amounts, not easy to be come at The financial portion of the scheme, etjually with every other, is j)roseuted to everybody in whatever light he would like to view it in. It will surely bring about economy, because the local governments will have so little to expend unless they resort to direct taxation; but yet, OQ the other hand, it is as surely to carry us through all sorts of wild expendi- ture — to give us L w and exbaustless credit in England — to make possible vast defensive works throughout the country — to construct the Intercolonial Railway — to enlarge our canals westward — to create no one knows how vast a scheme of communication with the far North-West. Literally, it sounds at every turn as a promise of everything for e\erybocly; and yet, when each comes to ask how much it promises, and how, and v/here, and when, the whole is to be found ambigu- ous, unsubstantial and unreal. (Hear, hear.) I repeat, there is everywhere throughout this scheme a most amazing amount of that sort of cleverness which may characterize the astute politician, but whioh, I think, I shall be able to show is yet far from being the wis- dom and foresight characteristic of the far- seeing statesman. (Hear, hear.) The game of all things to all men is a game that cannot be played with success in the long run. It can, under any circumstances, be but tempo- rary in its success. (Hear, hear.) Seriously, tuen, Mr. Speakee, I pass on to examine ♦his work in a constitutional point of view, clearing away, as best one may, these ambigu- ities that surround it, dealing with it as it is, and comparing it primarily with the Constitu- tion of the United States, and secondarily with the (Constitution of Great Britain. I wish I could compare it primarily with that of Great iJritain ; but it is so much more like that of the United States, that I cannot. In parts only has it any resemblance to the British Con.stitution : and for this reason the order oi' comparison cannot be reversed. I must say, before I go further, that I am by no means an admirer of a great deal that I find in the (Joustitution of the United States. I have always preferred, decidedly preferred, and do now preier, our own British Cousti- lutiou. But this, at least, no one can deny, that tlie framers of the American Constitu- tion were great men, wise m3n, far-seeing men; that their work was a great work; and that to compare anyLody else's work — e.'ne for Prince Edward wanted for each of the New Brunsw^iok uud be sorely discontented unless th«y get, at least, two apiece ; and neither Lower Canadu nor Upper Canada will be contented with the three letlt for each of the II. And for Lower Canada, in parti- cular, how will anyone divide this intractable figure between her French, Irish and British '/ Shall wo give them one apiece, and ask the French-Canadiau element to bo content \\ith one voice in a cabinet of a dozen ^ — or, give that clement two, without satisfying it — so leaving out either the Irish or the British, to its intense disgust 't — or, give the preponderatinii element the whole, to the intense disgust of both the others ? It will be none too easy a task, sir, I think, to form an Executive Council with its three members for Lower Canada, and satisfy the somewhat pressing exigencies of her creeds and raccH. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIEIl— Hear ! hear I Ma. General to do it. Hun. DUNKIN — The Hon. Attorney East probably thinks he will be aide Atty Gen. CABTIER— I have QO doubt I oan. (Laughter.) 21 Mr. DUNKIN— Well, I will say this, that if the hon. gentleman can please all patties in Lower Canada with only thiee members in the Executive Council, he will prove himself the cleverest statesman in Canada. Hon. Atty. Oen. CARTIER— Upon whose authority does the hon. gentleman say there will be only three ? Mr. DUNKIN— The hon. gentleman has evidently not been listening to my line of argument, and I do not think that, to enlighten him, I am called upon to punish the House by going over it all again. (Hear, hear.) What I say is, that if the number of the Ezcoutive Council is fixed according to the wants of the countiy as a whole, and not to what I may call the local wants of the several provinces, there will be in all some eleven, twelve or thirteen mcmberh' ; and you will have a number so small in propor- tion to the various interests to bo satisfied, that it will be extremely difficult to avuid serious trouble in the matter of its local distribution. On the other hand, if you give all the localities the number they had need have, on local grounds, the Council will be too largo to work. It will be practi- cally impossible to meet the needs of all the provinces ; and yet, none can be left out in the cold, on pain of consequenceH. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— When the matter is brought to a test, the hon. gentleman will see that he has aggravated the difficulty. Ma. DUNKIN — Sidney Smith once said of a leading Cabinet minister at home, that he would be willing at the shortest notice, either to undertake the duties of the Archbishop of Canterbury or to assume command of th< Channel fleet, (Laughter.) We have some public men in this country who, in their own judgment, havn ample capacity for assuming the responsibiiify and discharging the functions of those two high posts, and perhaps of a Held marshal or commander-in-jhief besides. (Renewed laughter.) Hon Atty. Gen. CARTIER— I would say, that although I do not feel equal to the tusk of cummandini; the Clianncl fleet or fill- ing the offi'^eof Archbishop of Canterbury, I do feel equal to the work of forming an Ex- ecutive Council that will be satisfactory to Upper and Lower Canada, as well us to the Lower Provinces. (Hear, hear, and laugh- ter.) Mr. DUNKIN— Well, it will require, in my opinion, something more than bold asser- tion, and capacity for a hearty laugh, to overcome the difficulty that will some day or other be presented. (Hear, hear.) And now, sir, I come to speak of the relations to subsist between this Federal power and the different provinces, as compared with those between the United States and the different states. Again, the comparison hua to be made much more with the Unit 'd States system than with that of Great Britain ; although, unfortunately, perhaps, there is in this part of the scheme some confusion of inconsistent features of the- two systems. Great Britain has not yet, in any true sense of the term, federated herself with any of her colonies. She just retains a nominal supremacy over them. Mr. SCOBLE — It is a real supremacy. Mr. DUNKIN — No ; it is only nominal as regards its exercise. It is not real in the sense of amounting to a substantial, practical exercise of power over the colonics. For these nearly five and twenty yearw past, I call to mind no legislative act of mrs dis- allowed by the Home Government. An Hon. MEMBER— Yes, there was one — Mr. Hinoks' Currency Act. Mr. DUNKIN— Well, I believe that was. But in that case we got our own way in effect directly afterwards. I am referring more particularly, of course, to what may be called the conduct of our own domestic affairs. There is uo mistake but we have had given to us by Great Britain a control practically unlimited over our own aflfairs; she lets us do what we like, while professing to retain a perfect nominal supremacy over us. She appoints our Governor General, but when he comes here, he does what we want, not what she may want. She can, if she likes, disallow all our statutes ; but for all practical purposes she never does. She may, if she chooses, alter or repeal the Charter of our liberties which she granted to us, but she never thinks of doing such a thing, and we know she will not Well, here in this proposed Constitution — looking to the relations which are to subsist between the Federation and the provinces — in lieu of a real Federation, such as subsists between the United States and the diff'ereiit states, we find an attempt to adopt to a consider- able extent the British sys cm of u stated supremacy, not meant to be in fact the half of what it passes for in theory. But, however such a system may work as betwet n Great Britain and h«r oolonios, it by no means follows that it admits of extension to this oaae. If the vaguelj stated powers of our Bo-oalled Federation are to be merely nomi- nal, they will bo insufficient ; if not nominal, they will bo ezccsslve. Either way, the United States idea of an attempted prooiso ■tatemont of the powers meant tu bo given and used, is the true one. What, then, in the system adopted in the United States, as regards these relations between the Federal power and the soverul statc-s? There are two leading principles, and very sound prin- ciples, that pervade it. In the first place the United States, by its Constitution, guarautcoH to every state in the union a republican form of government ; by which is meant a (.'onsii- tution, in the main, analogous to that of the United States — an elective executive, ud elective second branch, an elective popular branch — the whole without what wo here call responsible government. This ifi whut everybody understands as the republican sys- tem. Accordingly, just the same sort of thing in principle and in all its great outlines aa the Constitution of the United States, is the Constitution of each separate state of the union. And in the second pkse, along with this uniformity in principle and outlines between the Constitution of the United States and those of the different states, there is established a veiy exact sy^^tcm of what I may call limited state autonomy. The state, within its certain range of subjects, does what it likes, and is as free to act as the United States; it has its own functions, and within the limits of those functions nubody controin it. The United States have their special functions also, and wit'iin the range of thbae functions can, in (urn, control everything. The respective judiciary systems of the state and of the United States, are further so con- trived as to be the most perfect check that can well be imagined to secure the smooth and steady working of this Federal national machinery. It is a complex piece of machine- ry, if you will ; there are many delicate parts in it, one depending nicely upon another ; but, upon the whole, it has worked pretty well for many years, and may go on working prettv well for many more. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIEU— But the judges are elected. Mr. DUNKIN— Does the hon. gentleman mean to tell this House that the principle nt' elective judges foriu8 u part of the conMtitu- tional system of the United States? Why, sir, an elective judiciary is a mere ezores- eenoo of quite late growth, and has not fastened itself on tiie syHteni of the United States at all. It 'u\ not evtni as yet adopted by nearly all the individual states, but only by some of them. It is an excresoonoe which the fdUiultTs or the linitcd States system never, 1 fancy, thou^'ht of, or in all human probalility they would have expressly provided iigaiimt it. (Hear, hear.) But now, sir, what is the Hysteni we are going to adopt according to thoHi! resolutlonH ? What are the relations to bo ostablishcd between our general and local governments? We are told to take for granted that no ohtMhing of interest or feeling need be feared ; that the Federal union otFered u.^ in name will be a legiMJative utiion in reality. Yet, who- ever dislikes the liuiion of a It'gi.'^lativo union is assured it will bo nothing of the sort. Now, sir, I do not believe that yuu can have all the adv ntages of these two systems com- bined in one. (Hear, hear.) A LcgL^lutivo union is one thing; a Fediral union is an- other. The same system cannot bo both at once. You cannot dovine a fystiin that shall have all the advantages of the one and of the other ; but it is quite possible that you may devise one that will coicbine the chief disadvantaLies of both, and that i.", I fear, r>»etty much what this .systrui does, (Hear, hear.) Let mo first take one feature of the scheme, or, I might say, one absenoo of a feature from the scheme — the non- provision of anything like provincial consti- tutions. We are not told about them ; they are kept back completely in the dark ; it is part of the scheme that wo are not to know what it means them to be. (LaughtiT.) It is part of the .scheme, too, from all appear- ance, that they may not be ut all alike. For anything I can see, Novn .""'cMla will have a right under this schume to devise a system of responsible government, with a cabinet and twu branches of tlie legislature. New Urunswiek, if it pkasoB, may have only f ne legislative body, with or without respon- sible government. So may the Prince Edward Island people have anything they like; and the piople of Newfoundland may do what they like, and so may we in Canada. Lower Canada may oven have a constitution of ono kind, and Upper Canada one of a totally different kind. There may be no two of our six or more local constitutions j framed on Lhe same model. (Hear, hear.) ' It seems to be meant that these constitutions i shall bo as varied as the people of the different provinces may see fit to make them 23 nay, thoro ure ivcn loft to tlio people of the diobront provitic-H tho hiiiiio luigo powers for umonding thuiu artorwards. To be Nuro there is tho grand power of diHallowauoo by the Federal Government, which wo are told, in one and theHunie breath, is to be poHsesaed ly it, but never exerciMcd. Hon. Atty. Gi^n. CARTIER— The presumption is, it will be exercised in case of unjust or unwi^e legiHlation. Mr. DUNKIN— The h')n. gentleman's presumption reminds mo of one, perhaps as oonolusive, but which DiGKENB tells us failed to satisfy his Mr. HuMBLR. That hen- pecked beadle is saiii to have said, on hearing of tho legal presumption thut a man's wife acts under his control : — " If tho law pre- sumes anything of the sort, tho law's a fool -a natural fool!" (.Laughter.) If this permission of disiilluwanoe rests on a pre- sumption that tho legislation of our provinces is going to be unjust or unwise, it may be noeiled ; but under thut idea, one might have done better either not to allow, or else to restrict within narrower limits, such legislation. If tho promised non-exerciso of the power to disallow rests on a presumption that all will be done justly and wisely in the provincal legislatures, tiic li'gi?lativo power is well given ; but then there is no need, on the other hand, for the permission to disallow. (Hear, hear.) I repeat, this system, or no-system, uims at nothing like uniformity between tho general and looal constitutions, or between the local constitu- tions themselves ; and in this respect, it is essentially at varianoo with the much wiser system adopted in tho United States, It further allows of no real autonomy ; in fact, the only trace of uniformity it can be said to have about it, consists in its disallowance of all autonomy to tho provinces. (Hear, hear.) Now, let nie take up thoso few features that undoubtedly are given to us, as characterizing our provincial system. Wide as we have seen the latitude is which tho pro- vinces may take in framing their constitutions, there are a few matters as to which the system lays down an iron rule. There is the appointment of a lieutenant-governor which is to be vested in the General Govern- ment. It is not said in so many words that ho is to be a colonist, but I think it may be taken for granted that he will be. It is not very likely that wo shall get any right hono- rable gentleman or eminent statesman, from home, to come out here for an appointment of that kind ', aud I take for granted, there- fore, that tho General Qovernnient will always nominate Mr. Somebody or other, of local distinction, to this o£Boe of lieutenant governor. An hon. gentleman opposite. (I beg his pardon for noticing his gesture,) se ms never to have had the thought orosa his mind, that perhaps if he wore named to it, there might be a doubt in some quarters as to his entire fitness for it. (Hear, hear.) But seriously these lieutenant-governors thus Bolected, are all to hold office by a very peculiar tenure. They are uot to be romoT- able except by the Federal power ; nor by it within tho term of five years, except for cause, which cause must be stated in both branches of For five years, hold ofilce are to be They are p-irdoning writing, and laid before the Federal Parliament, therefore, they may bo said to during good behaviour. They paid, too, by the Federal power, to exeroiso the reprieving and power, subject to such instructions as they may receive from the General Government from time to time. And they are to have iVe initiation, by message, of all money bills, and the power to reserve bills for ap- proval of ^ the Federal Government. They are to ha-ve these leading functions of the nominated lieutenant govornors under our system, but with one most marked differ- ence — the attribute of non-removability. Beyond these few points, the resolutions leave us all at sea. Save as to these, they leave room, as we have seen, for the widest divergencies of constitution. To be sure, I gather one hint more, not from the resolu- tions themselves, but from the dispato' gent along with them to the Colonial Secretary, by the Govovnor General, and this is, that according to the view of our Ganadicn Gov- ernment, the proviiiciai legislatures had bet- ter bo framed on tho one chamber principle. I presume this will hardly be gainsayed by tho honorable gentlemen who have laid the dispatch before us, aud which supplies this feature that we cannot find in the resolutions themselves. Says the dispatch : — For the purpose of local administration, it is proposed to have in each province an executive officer, to he appointed by the Governor, and removable by him for cause to be assigned, assisted by a legislative body, the constitution of which it is proposed to leave to the decision of the present local legislatures, subject to the appro- bation of the Imperial Government and Parlia- ment. But, sir, whether our local legislatures are to be of one bouse or two, or however other- m wise any of our provinces may experiment, in the way of variation, in framing their constitutions, at least there must everywhere be some attempted approach, in principle, to one or other of the two great divergent systems — the British on the one hand, with its responsible Cabinet — the American, on the other, without. That you cannot work the problem oa the former of the^e two plans, I will show presently. For the latter, Mr. Speaker, in the States, it is always oarried on witii two elective houses, never with one, and with an elective governor ; and ail are chosen for terms that are not long. It could not be made to work other- wise. An appointed governor, holding in- depcDfJently, for a term not short, and abovo all, with only one House, is an experiment as new and unpromising as need be. For a moment; before going further, 1 revert to the principle on which the F: 'eral Execu- tive is to be constituted. We are promised there a cabinet, responsible after the British model, and strangely ani anomalously as we have seen that it will have to be organized, in sections to represent our proviiices, we must understand that the British principle of its joint responsibility is to be and will be carric'v out. But it ia of the e:isunce of respo. sible government, that with its re- sponsibility such government should have power. No ministry can be answerable for the entire government of a country, unless it has the power to control in si>me way or other, and fo the requisite extent, tiie course of affairs. If ws are going to build up or suffer in the country any power too strong for it to de:il with, it will cease to be r^-spon- sible. It must be able to overcouie opposi- tion, and that in a coustitutiunal manner. Yet, according to this scheme, indepen- dently of and besides all the diflicultieH our sectionally-organized ITederal Cabinet will find in dealing with its sectionaily-organized Federal Legislature, it is to have these pro- vincial governments also, to euibarraHS it. Let these last be what you will, responsible or republican, or some of the i; the one and some the other, so .won as they begin to act for theniselveS; so soon you h:ive got powers in action that cinnot long move together without clashing, and yet neither of whie»i can overcome the other, unless by practically destroying it, or in other words, liy revolu- tion. (Hear, hear.) Whether wh adopt one system or another, wo must create the proper machinery for carrying out whatever 8)';;t«m we adopt. And the plain truth is, that the Federal system is simply inconsist- ent with the first principles that must pre- v'ail in a properly organized Briti.sh respon- sible central government. (Hear, hear.) Indeed, aside even from Federalism, the l^ritish system and the republican are tagonist in principle ; neither of them will wo'"k mixed up with the other. You must be content with one •)r other, and must not commit the folly ef attempting any new, untried, mongrel system, or com- pound of the two — such as nobody can shew to be capable of being worked at all. And now, Mr. Speaker, let us just fol- low out the course of our distinguished fel- low-colouist who is trying to govern some one of our provinces under this proposed amalgamation of the two systems. We will suppose him a most admirably fitted person forthepost, the functionsof which he is called upon to exercise; but he must necessarily have one or two causes of incapacitation, so to speak, for it. Wiien Her Majesty appoints a governor to come out to Canada, or any other colonj, she is presumed by every one here to have named somebody holding a good position at home, and somebody against whom no one in the colony can have ar.y ground of dislike. He comes with a social rank and status presumedly higher than that of the people whom ho is here to meet with and govern. Ever_y one is disposed to re- cognise in lum the representative of Her Majesty ; and he has every chance of main- taining himself in that pleasant attitude — that of administering his government to the satisfaction, so fir as such a thing is pos- sible, of all parties. In adopting the views of his constitutional ailvisers, he is not called upon to give up any views which he may himself be thought to entertain. He can express to the people's representatives the views of bis Cabinet, whether they be con- .servative or reform, or even though they be conservative this session and reform the next, without any sacrifice of position, no matter what his own political views may have been in the Mother (/ountry. But suppose any of our politicians, vvhethtr of this province or of any other in the (>jn- federacy, say Canada, N'lwfoundland or Nova Scotia, to be assuming this ro/r of lieuten- ant-governor in any of our provinces. He has this disadvantage to begin with; he has to that moment been pa-*sing through that ordeal of abuse under wliich every prominent public man in this country must have suf- fered before attaining any diirtiuctiou what- £5 ever. (Hear, hear.) When a politician, Mr. Speaker, in tho United States, who is obnoxions to the ill-will of any large body of the people, is there elected to be Governor of his state, tht halo of his election sur- rounds him with a souiethiug of political glory that throws into shade any stains on his political reputation. But if the governors of the hoveral states of the American Union were appointed from Washington, do you think the people would put up with the results of such appointment, as they now do with those of their own choice; when they might feel that the man was even a despised, dishonest man, and his appointment as well an insult as a wrong '( Who does not know that our chief public men of all parties have been so assailed, as to be held at thi,s moment at a painfully low value by the large section of our people who have diflFercd from their views ? I do not say that they have deserved this fate, but the fact is undeniable that they have met it. Let any one of our dozen or twenty most prominent Canadian politi- cians be named Ijieutenant-Governor ot Up- per or of Lower Canada, would not a largo and powerful class of the community in either case to bo governed, be very likely to resent the nomination as an insult ? Do not tell me that we are entering upon a now era, that all such things are passed away, that we are to liave a political millennium, by virtue of this Confederation? Come what may, we are going to have pretty sharp con- tests for place and powtr in the future as in the past No matter over what colony ;ip- pointed, or from what colony coming, a lieu- tenant-governor will have hard cards to play, and will have very much to pat up with from the people over wlunu he is S3t, on this mere score of his past political exploits A:id he will not find it ca.sy, cither, to got along without exciting a good deal of ill- leeling, as he goes, lie has b^en known as a politician, and will bo hold to bo favorable or uafavorabic to this or that party in the province he governs. Ho will havit .stopped into position as a 8tatcsu:an of the Cooleilor- ation. No man so placed will be able to blot the record of his past, or deny his |iartieipa- tion in this, that and t' 3 other pricoeding, wnieh his opponent may choose to brand as perhaps next to eriaiinal ; luw then will 1ki he able to hold that position of i (|uilibrium hotween political parties, whii-h, if he is not to fail utterly i > his/-^/e of governor, lie must maintain? lie will be suspected, watched, attacked, vililed ; must stick by l'rieud.s and 4 punish enemies ; cannot win respect, esteem and sympathy, as a stranger might. Nor will he be free from another source of embarrass- laent. I incline to think there will be a sort of distinction between the two classes of politicians to grow up under our proposed Confederation. There will be those who will aim at and get seats in the B'oderal Legislature, and who may be denominated the senior or higher class of our politicians. It will be from this class that men will get into the Federal Executive Council, into high-caste judgeships, lieutenant-governor- ships, and other high places of tbe new system — " the chief seats in the synagogue." The lower seats, with their less tempting prizes, will be left to the junior or lower class of our politicians. But if anything ever so little like responsible government is to be carried out in the provinces, .while the lieutenant-governors must be taken from the foruier of these two classes, the membere of any cabinets or quasi-cabinets that they may hitvo (not to say their provincial Pre- miers eveP; very likely), must be taken from the latter class. Do you moan to tell me that a governor chosen trom among our politi- cians, of what I may call high caste, will put up with much of coutn^l f Voic a lot ot poli- ticians of low caste, sitting at his sham council board or forming his sham legisla- ture ? I fancy he will want to have — and will be held by his people to be wanting to have -a vast deal more of power than they will like, or th.an any system ever so little free can allow of. And meantime, what of the power behin^l, and nominally above him — the Federal Kxiicntive — with its Premier, sections, and what not '! Once named, he is likely to feel every inch a govrnor; might perhaps run round to the Premier and Minis- try that had nanit^d hiin, and tell them in effect, though probably not in so many words : " I am here and you are there. I shall be careful not to give yi u sulScient eau.se for so bold a step as my dismissal, but there is a sjrood deal I can do. t am here for five years ; and your termre of office is less certain." lie may bo drawn into this atti- tude by differences growing up between himself and them. Or, the Fed.ral Cabinet may so change its composition or policy as to force such altitude upon him. Why, Mr. Si'KAKER, you may have a i.ieutenaut- (lovcrnor — say of Ijower Canada — in open quarrel with the Premier who named him, or with a succes,sor of ^uch Premier; the two, may be, not speakii 5 in the streets ! He has 26 his seat for fave years, and the unfortunate Federal Premier, his supposed nijister, whose views do not agree with his, may — A MEMBER— Whistle! (Laughter.) Mr. dun KIN— Yes, may whistlo— may find his Lieutenant-GoveriKir counter-working him in Parliament, in the Provincial Jjcgisla- ture, evcrywiiere ; and perhaps, in the en- counter, may catch a very ugly fall. (]..augli- ter.) Mr. Speaker, let me once again make reference to Canadi.m history. Just before the union of the Canadas, and after it, the late Jjord Sydenham, who was cer- tainly not a fool, thought lie would try a political experiment. 1 believe he made no secret of its being, to his own mind, an ex- periment, nor yet of the fact that he did not suppose it would so far succeed ;is to la.st long. He was very anxious lo introduce into Canada a municipal system. Weil, he tried first to get such a system emboiljpd in the Union Act ; but he failed in that He afterwards got his euactuieut passed as ho wished, for Lower Canada, by the Special Council, and for Uppcsr Canada by the Ca- nadian Parliament at its lirst session. That system had in it certain features of this scheme now proposed for our Coutederation. Each municipal district was to have its warden appointed by the Governor (Icuural, and to have its elected district council, or little legislature of one chamber. The powers of that little legislature, (ir large municipal body, were well stated. Ttieru was no mis- take as to just how far it could go. The power of disallowing by-laws passed by it, and also that of nominating the warden, were carefully reserved to (joverument. And, mind you, my Lord Sydknuam did not make the blunder of letciug his wardens hold otherwise than during pleasure, lie klpt in his own hands all uetdud control over them; and, by thu way, he kejit, tun, what was mi st material, the powi;r ut uis- solving any rel'nictory cuunc^l, in the hundti of Governnieut. Tlie whole thing was .'icely arranged, and was meant to work, and Jiord Syu.nua.m probably thought it would work tor some lew years, and that then iliu dis- tricts would outgrow thu .system, and . Icct their own wardens and pa.ss their by-law,s freely. But, Mr. Sl'i.AKtu, the pkm never did work at all, neiiher in Lowt.r nor in Upper Canada; and the first tiling done by the next i'ar.iament was to bweep It all away — nominated wardon.s and power of disallowing by-laws together, hverybody saw and felt that it was a real power and not a sham, that was so reserved to Government. And so it will bo In this case. Your Lieutenant-Governor will be felt to have a real power, not a sham one. What your petty districts would not put up with five and twenty years ago, your provinces will not put up with now. Is a larger illustration wanted ? One comes roiidily to hand. The Imperial Government used once to try the experiment of sending out governors to colonies having representative institutions, without instructing them to pay due deference to those in,°titutions, and it led to a most la- mentable failure. (He;ir, hear.) Are we going to try to work, in all these provinces, a worse system than that which, when worked from the Colonial Ofiice at home, resulted in what Lord Durham well called " constituted anarchy?" If we are, how long may we count on putting ofi'the conflict of authority tliat shall end in a complete crash of the en- tire fabric ? (Hear, hear.) But, Mr. Speaker, I have not come to the crowning difi&culties oi" this case, even yet. Not at all. Between the states of the United States, as I have al- ready stated, while there is an essential iden- tity of constitution, there is at the same time a carefully distinct separation of powers and i'unctions. [ do not say that the dividing line is drawn exactly where it should be, but that there is a distinct dividing line, no one can gainsay. But how do we stand here, Mr. Speaicer, as to the attributes of our own provincial legislatures and government-, on the one hand, and those of the Federal power on the other ? Do we follow American ex- ample, and give so much to the union and the rest to the provinces ; or so much to them, and the rest to it? Either rule would be plain ; but this plan follows neither. It sim- ply gives us a sort of special list for each ; making much common to both, and as to much more, not shewing what belongs to either. I cannot go now — it is impossible for me at this hour of the night to go — into de- t.iil oil this head. I can give no more than some few specimens ; and I take first the three subjects of the fisheries, agriculture, and im- migration. Those three subjects are equally assigned to the General Legisl iture on the one li:iiid, and the Provincial Legislature on the other. It is provided by the -f.">th resolution, that in all such ca.ses, wherever any statutes of the general and local parliaments clash, tlio.'.liaments which may thus be taken away at any moment by the Federal Legislature ? (Hear, hear.) But, Mr. Speak- er, there arc a hundrel other cases aa to which I could sati.'ify the Houst, had I time for doing so, that more or less of this confu- sion arises. Take the subject of marriage and divorce for one — a subject on which there is a great deal of local prejudice and feeling, and into which even religious convictions largely enter. That matter is given to the General Legislature. But on the other hand the larger matter, civil rights — of which this of marriage and divorce, from one point of vieWj'forms a mere part — is given to the lo- cal legislatures. I turn to another matter, hap- hazard — the subjects of railway legislation, of railway incorporation, and of railway amalga- mation. What i^egislature has power in these matters under thi.s scheme ? I am not sure that there are not here as nice a lot of pretty little questions as one would desire to see in a suui- nier's day. And I am not alone in the matter of this criticism. Her Majesty's Colonial Secre- tary expresses an opinion, rather diplomati- cally, it is true, but still an opinion on this point ; and what does the Colonial Secretary say y— The point of principal importaace to the piac- ticiil well-working of the scheine, is the accurate determination of the limits between the authority of the central and that of the local legislatures in their relation to each other, [t has not been pus.sible to exclude from the resolutions some provisions which appear to Le leas consistent than might, [)erhaps, have been desired with the sim- plicity of the system. Hut, upon the whole, it appcurs to Him- Majesty's (lovernment that |ire- cautions have been takeii which are obviously in- tendeil — ["intended;" he does not say "calcu- lated"] — which are obviously intended to secure to the ('eniral (Joverumoni the means of etfeclive action thn .ghout the several provi.ices, and to guard against those evils which must inevitably ttriee if any doubt were permitted to exist aa to the respective limits of central and local authority. It is perfectly plain from this that Her Ma" jesty's Government could see that whatever may have been the intention, there has been a good deal of short-ooming between it and the execution. (Hear, hear.) A thing is not done by being merely intended. I will take now a criticism on the same point from the London Time!;. In an article most eulogistic of these resolutions on the whole, the writer in the London Times says — " But the most important clauFC in the whole resolutions, and unfortunately by no means the easiest to understand, is the one which defines the powers of the Central Federal Legislature." He then quotes the words of the resolutions, and goes on to say : — It is exceedingly difficult to construe these pro visions. First, general iiowers of legislation are given in thewiuest terms to the General Parlia- ment; then a power is given especially to make laws oil thirty-seven subjects, one of those being all matters of a general characternot exclusively reserved to the local legislatures. Nothing is exclusively reserved to the local legislatures, and it would seem, therefore, that the effect of this clause is to cut the ))Ower of central legislation down to matters of a general character — a most vague and unsatisfactory definition, and one sure, if it be retained, to produce conflict and con- fusion, [n the same way, what are matters of a private and local nature not assigned to the Gen- eral ruiliament? We have failed to discover any niaiteis of a private and local nature whijh are so assigned, and therefore the power will be limited by the words "private "and "local," so that the eff..ct of these clauses will be that, be- yond the subjects attributed to each, the Central Legislature will have jurisdiction over general matters, whatever they are, and the Local Legisla- ture ov(!r local matters, whatever they are ; while it is in the highest degree doubtful what the courts would consider general and what local,and whether the Central Legislature has any concurrent juriB- liiction over jirivate and local matters or no. The writr r in the Times goes on to say — and I have groat respect for the opinions of these writers when tliey criticise what they under- stand, though I have none whatever for them when they take it upon themselves to tell us what we know a good deal better than they : — These inaccuracies are probably the result of a succession of compromises, and we can do no better service to the federative movement than by thus early pointing them out. The resolu- tions ask for the cooperation of the Local and li'qieiiiil !^ ■iiiiment.s for the purpose of giving tinni elleci, and we have no doubt that before they assume the form of law they will have under «8 gone consideration and scrutiny fully commensu- late to their importance. I rather think this writer had little idea o* what we wore to be asked to do ! He little thought that tliere was not a word of alter- ation to be allowed ; that these resolutions were to be laid before Parliament, and that Parliament would be required to swallow them at once, defects and all. (Hear, hear.) Well, Mr. Speaker, I have stated what, in diplomatic plirase, are the views of Her Ma- jesty's Govcmnieut, and I have also read those of the leading journal ; and now 1 desire to quoto a few expressions frcni the last num- ber of the EdinhurgJi Review. Tlie Edinlmrgh Review is about as good an authority as can be cited on a question of this kind, for its ar- ticles are never lightly written. Hon. J. S. MACDONALD— It is the organ of the Liberal-Whig party in Great Britain. Mr. DUNKIN— Certainly, it is a most important and influential publication ; and there are a few words that T desire to quote from an article it contains on this subject. The article is in the last or January number of the Review, and purports to be in commen- dation of this scheme. After giving the words of the resolutions themselves on the subject, and especially their residuary legacy, il' I ni-iy so call it, to the General Lepslature, of all mat- ters of a general character not specially and exclusively reserved for the local parliaments, this probably not undistinguished writer remarks — ''Obviously very loosely expressed ; for what are matters of a general character, and who is to decide whether a matter is of a general character or not ? * * We should prefer to the foregoing enumeration of the powers of the Federal Parliament, a simple declaration that all powers are given to it except those expressly reserved to the several members of tiie Confederation.'' And in another part of the same article, reverting to the same subject, we have these words — " And although the distinction attempted to be drawn between general and local matters is in some re-pects scarcely traceable in the draft minutes of the Conference "—Yes, sir, so this writer calls them, their looseness of" expression evidently leading him to take tliem for some- thing far short of tliC solennily drawn treaty they are now set up for, — though this dis- tinction, says he, is hardly traceable in these draft minutes, "d that " The seat of Government of tlie Federated Provin- ces ihajl be Ottawa, subject to the royal prerogative." It is distinctly laid down ns a part ol our system tliat the royal prerogative, the right to change the seat of the Federal (iovernment at will, is to be maintained. But I ventuie to say that the maintaining of that right is simply inconsistent with the practical working out of a Federal system. And this is a matter involving a good deal of anomaly, !is honorable gentlemen will .see when they be- gin to think of it. The Governor General or Vieen^y, th« all but king of this Confederacy, with his all but Injperial Government, and all but Imperial Legislature, eon.jtituted no mat- ter how, resident within the territorial juris- diction of a subordinate province ! The po- lice of the Federal capital, not Federal but pnivineial! That thing won't do. The franiers of the Con.^titution of tlie United States knew it would not do, and therefore they were par- ticular to gi\e power to their General Govern- ment to ;ic.. ./^ ,1' ' ly^ : i ing of his book authorities, he had better mind what he is about, with the painful doubt liaing at every turn whether provincial legislation may not bo overridden by federal legislation. His province may well have legislated on what it holds a local matter, while the Federal Par- liament may have legislated on it, thinking it a federal matter. Anywhere there may well be some bit of federal legislation contradict- ing something in a local stjitute. And do our resolutions say that the federal statute shall always override the local statute ? No, only in cases where there is concurrent jurisdic- tion. And yet our judge who is to decide these nice questions is paid by one power and re- movable by that power, and may have his func- tions taken away and be persecuted to the death by the other. He will have a bad time of it. Well, 3Ir. Speaker, I have so far been deal- ing with matters, nearly all of which may be said to be general to every part of this great Confederacy ; but now I must ank the atten- tion of the House for a few moments, to some sources of misunderstanding which may more particularly make trouble, unless human na- ture ceases to be human nature within this Canada of ours. There are in Canada, and especially in Lower Canada, the two differences of language and faith ; and there is no doubt that the real reasons which have rendered, or are supposed to have rendered necessary this plan of a sort of Federal Government, are referable to this fact. This machinery is devised, on purpose to meet a possible or pro- bable clashing of races and creeds in Canada, and particularly in Lower Canada. Now, in the United States, when their constitutional system was adopted, the framers of it must have foreseen, of course, that controversy would arise on the subjects of state rights and slavery. There was a jealousy be- tween the small states and the large, and the commencement of a dissent between the Northern and the Southern States of the re- public. There was undoubtedly a foresha- dowing of trouble on the subject of slavery, though, by the way, slavery was to all ap- pearance dying out rapidly in the Northern States, not so rapidly in tlie Southern. How, then, did tl amers of that Constitution un- dertake to ' i with these foreseen troubles, these quest; if state rights and slavery ? Sir, they dia they possibly could to keep both out of sight — to bury them— that they might not rise up i;* the i'uture to give trou- ble. It is true that in so doinu they but buried the dnigon's teeth, and tiiat these, all buriid as they were, have yet since sprung up, anuod men ; but so far as they could, they kept them down, kept them from growing, prevented recognition of them at that time and for long after. Well, how are we going to carry out this scheme of ours? Arc we burying, or are we of set choice sowing, our dragon's teeth ? Are we trying to keep our difficulties out of the way, to bury them out of sight, that we may smooth our way for the future lessening of thcni ? I think not. On the contrary, wo are ijettins: ourselves as deliberately as wo wcllcan to keep up the distinctions and thedif- erences which exist among us, to hold them constantly in everybody's sight — in the hope, I suppose, that while everybody is looking at them intently, somehow or other no one may see them at all. (Laughter.) In the United States, be it remembered, they started with their states sovereign and independent. From that they went into their system of confed- eration, which was a great improvement; and from that they went on into their present fetieral-national constitution. At each step they were moving to limit state rights, and also, indirectly, the extent and influence of slavery. It is true they did not altogether succeed in this policy, but their want of suc- cess has been mainly owing to circumstances over which they could exercise no control. We in Canada, for the last twenty-five years, have been legislatively united, and we have worked that union in a federal spirit. Wo complain that, as a result of this, the dis- tinctions which exist among us have become so prominent — the truth being, that it is rather this proposed change which is suddenly bringing them into startling prominence — we have worked that union, however, I say, in a federal spirit, and it is said to have produced or aggiavated a certain state of teud amongst us ; and now, for the purpose of perpetuating tiiis state of feud, we are going to effect a professedly beaeral union which is even expressly recommended to us, or to many of us, as meant and calculated to be Si) worked ;ih to iimount, for all practical purposes, to disunion. UndvT it Lower Canada has all sorts of special exceptions made, as the j)liia.->'' runs, in her favor. The Legislative (Jouncil is to be named in a peculiar niaijuer, so far as its members from Lower ('anuda are concerned. The other provinces may have fhoir laws made uniform, but an exception in this re'spect is made for Lower Caniida, and as if to make it apparent that liuwer Canada is never tobelikothe rest of tlie (Confederation, it is < arefuily provided that th« General Parliament may make SI y kept them , prevented ind for long 9 carry out ying, or are on's teeth ? Ities out of ht, that we re lessening e contrary, rately as wo I and the dif- hold them n the hope, s looking at no one may I the United itarted with lent. From 1 of confed- ement; and leir present t each step rights, and influence of t altogether vaut of suc- rcumstances no control, y-five years, nd we have spirit. Wo is, the dis- ave become that it is is suddenly oniinence — ever, I say, lid to liuve in state of ;ho I'urpose ud, v.e are leral union nded to us, ilculatcd tu ill pruotical it Lower exceptions avor. The lanieil in a nibers from The other lie uniform, is made for it apparent Ik the rest !y provided may make uniform the laws of the other provinces only — that is to say, provided those pro- vinces consent to it, but by infurence it can- not extend this uniformity to Lower Canada, not even if she should wish it. Supposing, even, thut the other provincies were to desire to adopt our Lower Canadian system, accord- ing to the letter of this Constitution, one would say they cannot do it. They may become uniform among themselves, but Lower Canada, even though her people were to wish it, must not be uniform with them. Again, as to educaticn, exceptions of some sort are to be made in Lower Canada, and indeed in Upper Canada too, though no one can tell to what extent tho^e exceptions are or are not to be carried. Thus, in one way and another, Lower Canada is to be placed on a separate and distinct footing from the other provinces, so that Ler interests and institutions may not be meddled with. I say this system, as a whole, and these peculiarities and exceptions in regard to Lower Canada, are adopted with a special view to remedy our Canadian difficul- ties of race and creed. But, sir, this is no way at all of avoiding or lessening trouble from this cause. It is idle to pretend that by this system collision is going to be prevented. Under the legislative union of the Cunadus, even worked as it has been, the tendency of the minorities in Upper and Lower Canada, respectively, has been towards the mainten- ance of the union — towards the avoidance of all intemperate language and prejudiced feelings — towards the pulling down of the feuds that before divided thorn and the respective majorities. And the result has been, that while just before the union the feud between the races in Lower Canada was at ics highest and bitterest point, it has since then all but disappeared. The com- plaint of Upper Canadian politicians has been that they could not set the British and French races in Lower Cimiida by the ears, that they could not get the former, either us British or as Prlestants, to join with them in a crusade against the Lower Canadian majority. Mr. a. MACKENZIE— Who made that complaint ? Mr. DUNKIN— I do not say that it has been said in words, but it has been in spirit. Mr. a. MACKENZIE— No, no. (Hear, hear.) . Mr. DUNKIN — Yes; the complaint has been made, perhaps not in that particular form, but certainly in that spirit. The British of Lower Canada have been again and again told they were worse than tbeir French neighbors, for not casting in their lot with the people of Upper Canada. (Hear, hear.) Well, Mr. Speakkr, undoubtedly, before the union. Lower Canada, as I have said, was the place where the war of races was at its height ; and that war of races did not nearly cease for a number of years after. But the strife did very gradually lessen, and a better and more friendly feeling has for some time prevailed, in both camps. Indeed, there has been a more tolerant state of feel- ing in both camps, than in any other community so divided as to race and creed, that I know of. But the moment yon tell Lower Canada that the large-sounding powers of your General Government are going to be handed over to a British- American majority, decidedly not of the race and faith of her majority, that moment you wake up he old jealousies and hostility in their strongest form. By the very provisions you talk of for the protection of the non-French and non-Catholic interests, you unfortunately countenance the idea that the French are going to be more unfair than I believe they wish to be. For that matter, what else can they well be 'f They will find themselves a minority in the General Legis- lature, and their power in the General Government will depend upon their power within their own province and over their provincial delegations in the Federal Parlia- ment. They will thus be compelled to be practically aggressive, to secure and retain that power. They may not, perhaps, wish to be ; they may not, perhaps, be aggressive in the worst sense of the term. — I do not say that they certainly will be ; but whether they are or not, there will certainly be in this system the very strongest tendencies to make them practically aggressive upon the rights of the minority in language and faith, and at the same time to make the minority most suspicious and resentful of aggression. The same sort of alienation, as between the two faiths, will be going on in Upper Canada. Note of warning is already given by this sclieme, to both parties, that they prepare for fight ; and the indications, I regret to say, are that such note of warning is not to be given in vain. (Hear, hear.) The prejudices of the two camps are once more stirred to their depths j and if this scheme goes into operation, they will separate more and more widely, and finally brenk out into open war, unless, indeed, it .shall work very differently from what any one can now imagine. If provincial independence is to be crushed down by a General Government careless of local majorities, then you will have this war. Or, if on the other hand, the policy of the Federal Kxecutive should bo to give effect to the aggrcirato will of the several local majorities, at whatever sacrifice of principle, still then you will have this war. The local minorities — threatened with elimination, in their alarm and jealousy, will be simply desperate, ready for any out- break of discontent at any moment. Take a practical cane. Suppose the rule adopted, of not having an Ex:jutive Council inconve- niently lar^e, Lower Canada, as we have seen, can then only have three member? of it; and if all these three are French-Cana- dians — as they almost must be, because the French cannot put up with less than three out of twelve — how will not the Irish Catho- lics and the British Protestants feel i hem- selves aggrieved ? You cannot help it. They must in that case feel deeply aggrieved, and so feeling, they will cause troubles. The Irish Catholics will be told, I suppose, " < h, you will have an Irish Catholic member of the Government to look to from Newfound- land ;" and if so, they will have to guide themselves by some sort of Irish Catholic Newfoundland rule of policy, and not by any rule ever so little savoring of a regard for larger or higher principle. The Jiritish Protestants, in their turn, will be told: "You have a majority of your own tongue and faith irom Upper Canada ami the Lower Provinces ; you must bo content with that, and look to their members of the Government for such care as you may need in the matter of your affairs." " Uh, we must, must we?" will be the answer; "then we will square our conduct, not by any rule for British America or even Lower Canada, but by the shifting exigencies of preju- dice or pa8.sion, whatever they may be, in Upper (Janada and your Lower Provinces." (Hear, hear.) Thiise discontented elements in Lower Canada, depend upon it, will create no small confusion ; and among those thus driven into making trouble, there will be not a few whose preferences will even be American, and who will appeal to outside influences for protection. Such will be the legitimate effect of (his systei.i ; and if any one t'Ul.i me that it will be conducive to the peace and good government of this ountry, I s.iy ho jtrophocics in a way that I cannot understand. Tiiank God, Mr. Spkakkr, I do not need, as I stand heie, to defend my- self from any charge of bigotry as against any sect or party. There was a time in Ca- nada when it was uiost difficult for any person who spoke my tongue to stand up and say that the French-Canadians ought not to be politically exterminated trom the face of the earth. I stood out steadfastly against that doctrine then. I remember well the painful events of that sad tin.e, I foresee but too distinctly the fearful probability there is of (hat time coming again, throuuh the adoption of these reso- lutions And 1 do not shrink from the danger of being misunderstood or misrepre- sented, when I now stand up here and v^arn the country of this danger. If trouble of this sort ever arises, it is one that will ex- tend very rapidly over the whole Confederacy. In all parts of it, in every province, there are minorities that will bo acted upon by that kind of thing. In the Lower Provinces, and in Newtbundlaod, things are but too ripe for the outburst of hoslilitii.'s of this description. Talk, indeed, in .such a state of things, of your founding hero by this means " a new nationality " — of your creating such a tiling — of your whole people here rallying round its new (lovornmeit at Ottawa. Mr. SrKAKER, i.« such a thing possible? VV^e have a large class whose national feelings tjrii towards hondoii, whose v(Ty heart is there ; another large class whose sympathies centre here at Quebec, or in a sentimental way Tiniy have some reference to Paris ; an- other large class whose memories are of the Emerald Isle; and yet another whoso com- parisons are rather with Washington ; but have we any class of people who arc attached, or whose feelings are going to be directed with any e.irnestness, to the city of Ottawa, the centre of the new n tionality that is to bo created? In the times to come, when men shall begin to feel strongly on those questions that appeal to national preferences, prejudices and j)a>sions, all talk of your new nationality will sound but strangely. Some other older natii inility will then be found to hold the first place in most people's heaits (Hear, bear.) Mr. Si'KAKKR, it is only right that I should state to the House that I have not reached within a lon<' dist. nice o f th« poi nt which 1 had hoped to reach before sitting down j but 88 au- tbe 011 ; !iro be city lUty to isjly jiial all liut will ill iMr. I)U Id but I feci compelled to ask the indulgence of the House, from luy strength being insuffi- cient to bear mo through. (Cheers.) Tlie debate was then adjourned, Mr. DUNKIN having the floor again for next day. Mr. DUNKIN, continuing his speech from yesterday, said — Mr. Speaker, when the kindness of the House peruiitted me to resume my seat last evening, 1 was comparing the constitutional system of the proposed Confederacy with the Constitution of the Unit- ed States primarily, and with that of Q rcat Britain secondarily, I had gone over several leading points of comparison ; and it will be in the recollection of the House, no doubt, that I had compared the couipo.sitioii of our proposed House of Commons with that of the House of llcpresentatives of the United States ; and 1 endeavored to show, and 1 think I had shewn, that wo were departing altogether from the principles upon which the British House of Commons is constituted, and taking up mal d projxis, ixu i uufor tunatcly, the least inviting features of the composition of tho American House of Representatives. It is proposed to adopt here a plan which has a direct tendency to place on the floor of our House of Commons a number of provincial delegations, and not a number of independent members of parlia- ment. The tendency is therefore towards a system antagonistic to, and inconsistent with, those principles on which the JJritinh Constitution reposes. With provincial delegations, rather than members of parlia- ment, on the floor of the Federal Legislature, wo are not likely to have that political longevity, whether of men or parties, with- out which tlic JJritish system of government can hardly exist. Turning then to the livigislative Council, and comparing its constitution with that of the Senate of the United States — tho principles governing the former are diametrically opposite to those on which the latter is founded. The Seuate of the United States forms an excellent federal check upon the House of llepresent- iitives, partly owing to the way in which it is constituted, and partly on account of the powers given to it, and which are not pro- posed to be given to our Legislative Council. All that can be said of it is, that it is pro- posed tj be constituted upon almost tho worst principles that could have b-en adopt- ed. It seems as if it were so constituted for the mere purpose of leading to a dead-lock. The members of it are not to represent our provinces at all, but are to be named by the Federal power itself, tor life, and in numbers to constitute a pretty numerous body, but without any of the peculiar functions wisely assigned to the Senate of the United Status. In fact, the federal battle that must be fought will have to be fought in the House of Commons and in tho Executive Council, very much more than in the Legislative Council. Turning then to the Executive Council, I had shown that it is a necossary consequence of the proposed system, that we are to have not merely a House of (Com- mons cut up into sections, but also au Exo- ci^tivc Council cut up in the same unfortu- nate wuy. You can get nothing else in the nature of a real lederul check. Your ledcral problem will have to bo worked out around tho tabic of tho Executive Council. JJut this principle, which must enter into tlie funuacion of the Executive Coun .11, is clear- ly inconsistent with tho principle of the Uritish Constitution, wliieh holds tho whole Cabinetjointly responsible for every act of the (lovernment. In our present union of the Canadas, we have latterly gone upon the plan of having almost two ministries. The plan urged upon our acceptance purposes the experiment of six or more sections in the Executive Council, instead ot' the two that we have found one too many Among the dilfijulties that will grow out of that plan is this, the absolute necessity of either having an Executive Council that will be ridi- culously too numerous, or else one that will represent the dilieront provinces in sections entirely too small. From this comparison of these three leading features, I hud passed on to consider the relations of t!io Federal Government with tho several provinces, comparing them with the relations subsist- ing between the United States Government and the governments of the several states of tho American Union, The several states ot tho neighboring republic commouced their existence as states with all their constitu- tions constructed on the same general plan as that of the United States, and in fact the same republican principles underlie all their governmental institutions, municipal, state and federal. But it is here proposed, that while we are to start with a system of gen- oral government, part British, part republi- can, part neither, it is to bo an open (jues- tion, left to the decision of each separate province, what kind of local constitution la 84 to be ooDstructod for itself. Each prorinco must, of course, Imvo an elective chamber, but aa to a second cliaiiibor, that is to be as each local legislature intiy sec fit.. Some, probably, will have it elective, while others may diapcn c with it entirely. Then, looking to the appointment ot tha lieutenant-gov- ernors, and the tenure by which they are to hold office, it becomes about as clear us day that you cannot carry on responsible government in the provinces, but must have in them nil a system that is neither British nor repub- lican, and that, I believe, will be found to bo totally unworkable. Turning to the assignment of powers to the Federal Qovcrn- ment on the one hand, and the local cr provincial governments on the other, we meet again with the unhappy contrast be- tween the wisdom displayed on that point in the Constitution of the United States, and the lack of wisdom in the nrrangoincnt proposed for ad^f)tion hero. There is, in the United States' system, a clear and dis- tinct line drawn between the functions of the general and state governments. Some may not like the idea uf state sovereignty, and many may wish that more power had been given to the General Government. But this much is plain, that it is not proposed to allow anything approaching to state sove- reignty here. Wo have not even an intelli- gible statement as to what powers arc to be exercised by the general, and what by the local legislatures and governments. Several subjects are specifically given to both; many others are confusedly left in doubt between them ; and there is the strange and anomalous provision that not on'y can the General Government disallow the acts of the provin- cial legislatures, and control and hamper and fetter provincial action in more ways than one, but that wherever any federal legislation contravenes or in any way clashes with pro- vincial legislation, as to any matter at all common between them, such federal legis- lation shuU override it, and take its place. It is not too much to say that a continuance of such a system fur any length of time without serious clashing is absolutely im- Sossiblc. This is in effect so deolarcd in the espateh of Her Majesty's Colonial Secretary, and it is clearly pointed out in the London Times and in the J'JJiiiLun/h liv.vuw. It seems as if our statosmeu hud sought to multiply points of collisicu at every turn. Then us to the lun provisiun of a ponnniieiit seat of government, and the urrangemeuts contemplated lor the judiciary, we find still more of the same sort of thing ; and as to the extraordinary painsthatsoom tohavoboen taken to throw up a great wall or hedge round those institutions of Lower Canada which of late have been giving us no trouble to speak of — as to the exlrnordiuary pains, I say, that seem to have been taken to put a wall around those institutions, and to give every po!>siblo guarantee about them on this sido and on that ; why, this very machinery, prov- ided fortliemere purpose ofinduuing people to agree to the scheme, who would not other- wise countenance it, is calculated, at no very distant day, to cause the cry to resound throughout the land — '' To your tents, O, Israel !" (Hear, hear.) I had reached this point of my argument, when I was com- pelled to throw myself on the indulgence of the House. There is just one consideration connected with these matters to which I have been alluding, that I wish to revert to iu lew words, because I believe it escaped me, in part at least, last night. A marked difference between the history of the United States just before they framed their consti- tution, and our late history, is this : tho adoption of the Constitution of the United State? followed immediately upon their suc- cessful war of independence. The men who adopted it had just gone shoulder to shoulder through the severest trial that could have been given to their patience and other hkgher qualities. Their entire com- munities had been, you may say, united as one man, in the great struggle through which they had passed, and were then equally united in their hopes as to th<' grand results which their new system was to bring forth. They had tried the system of mere confederation, and were agreed tiwit it was inadequate to meet tho wants of tluiir situation. Thcy were all trying to remove the evils that they felt and apprehetuiinl from it, and to build up a great nationality that should endure in tho future. That was the position they occupied. Ours is soine thing very different indeed. Wo havo not gone through an ordeal such as that through which they had so promt ly passed. On tho contrary, wc have ended, temporarily ended at any rate, a series of struggles it is true, but struggles of u very diffierent kind; struggles tliut have just pitted our public men one against another, and to some extent, [ am sorry to say, even our faiths and raeos against each other. (Ikar, hear.) For one, I do believe that these struggles — of the latter class I aff 18 to been ound yhich ilo to Isay, I wall every is Bulo , prov- people othor- 10 very csouml nts, O, cd til in kH com- mence of (oration which I evert to escaped marked United ir consti- Lhis: the ic United heir suc- 1 men wi»o pulder to trial that ience and itire coni- united a« through vcie tlu'ii IS to the ystem was ,hc systoiii greed th;it ts of thiiii- to renioV'' preheiidi'd nationality That wuH rs is Bonu! \Vo have •h auiM proinily ■so Lvc cm .le.i, a sonos Yir les of that have Ine "& [UUSt im sorry t' ^;!iiQ8t cacl lidobelit'V tier claHrf moan — were dying out, but for those contem- plated changes, which arc threatening to revive theui. But, however that may be, struggles there have been amongst us, of which wo have no cause to be proud ; things have occurred since the union of which wo ought to bo ashamed, if wo are not (flear, hear.) Of this kind are the only struggles that we havo had ; and when, from such a past and present, wo are told to start with the idea, so to speak, of at once creating and developing the character of a new and united nation, under institutions giving us a something shurt of indepen- dence, and at the same time any quantity of matters about which to dispute anil come to trouble, we may as well not shut our eyes to the fact, that wo start with but poor omens of success. (Hear, hear.) JJut I have to turn now, Mr. Speaker, to another branch of my comparison — tho financial ; and here, I may at once give the House an assurance, which 1 am sure it will be glad to have, that I will not trouble it wi'h more figures than arc absolutely necessary to my explanation of vhc views I have to present, and that I will u )t give a single figure as to which there can be the possibility of a controversy. The contrast between the financial system as a whole, with which the framerscf the United States Constitution started, and tho financial .system with which it is proposed wo shall start, is as salient as it is possible for tho human intellect to conceive ; and further the contrast between this proposed financial sys- tem, and the financial system of England, is just as salient too. The framcrs of the United ■States Constitution staitcd with the principle, that between the United States and the several states there should be no financial dealings at all. They were to have separate financial systems, separate treasuries, separate debts — all absolutely distinct. And ever since the time when the unhappy attempt on the part of Great Britain to tax the colonics was given up, almost as absolute a line of demar- cation between the Imperial finances and treasury and tho colonial finances and trea- suries, has been maintained. We have had our own separate fint.nces and our own sepa- rate treasury, with which tho Imperial Government has h;id nothing to do. The Imperial Government may have gone, and may still go, to some expense on provincial behalf ; but the British principle is, that Imperial finance is as distinct from the pro- vincial, as in the Unite! Stitts Fedciul fipance is irom that of any state. Now, the sys- tem proposed hero for our adoption is not this of entire and simple separation of tl.o federal from the provincial treasuries, but a system of the most entire and complex confusion between them. One has to think a good deal upon tho subject, and to study it pretty closely to see precisely how the contusion is going to operate ; but there it is, unmistak- ably, at every turn. I do not mean to say that under all the circumstances of the case something of this sort was not unavoidable. In the course of debate the other day, I remember a remark was thrown ocross the floor of the House upon this point and the lion. Minister of Finance in efiect said : "Yes, indeed, and it would have been a very pleasant thing for gentlemen opposed to the scheme, if it had thrown upon the provinces a necessity of resorting to direct taxation." Of course, in the mere view of making the scheme palatable, it was clever to make the Federal treasury pay for provincial expenditure ; but the system that had need bo established should bear testimony, not to cleverncp' , but to wisdon:. Is tho system proposed for our acceptance as good, then, as statesmen ought to and would have made it '/ I think not; and the extraordinary thins is, that it is brought out with a flourish of trumpets, on t\vi ground that in some undc- scribable way it is t ) work most economically ! (Hear, hear.) Well, to test it, I will take it up in three points of view — first, as to assets ; next, as to debts and liabilities ; and, lastly, as to revenues. As to the asset part y ilic-e re.solutiou'i il is provided, that a)l unliiancc properties are to be taken by tho (Jtneral Government; and I never heard but thai tho seigniory of Sorel i.« an ordiiiinee property. IJut from tho statement made hero tho other day, it would scom tliat although this printed document purports to bo the fechenio, it does not give us true in- formation on this point. The wording of tho 55th resolution i.'-, that the " property transferred by the Imperial Government and known as ordnance property " is to belong to the General Government; if any part of it is really a provincial asset, it must become so by one cf those explanations or glosses which we are not allowed to insert in the instrument now, but arc to take our chance of for some future time. (Hear, hear.) Tasaing over the mystery that seems to hangover tho subject, I refer thon *o a mat- tor about which them can bo no mistake. There certainly cannot bo a doubt that the lands, mines, and minerals of Newfoundland are to be a Federal asset ; and there is not any doubt either that tho Federal Govern- ment will have to pay $150,000 a year for them. It is perfectly certain that theso lands will cost that money; and it is per- fectly certain, I think, that the administration of them will also cost a certain amount of trouble and dispute, as to tho manner in which it is to bo carried on. IJut if human naturo remains human nature, wo may rea- sonably and probably surmise that they will not yield so great a revenue to the General Government as is by soma thought. Wo shall have Newfoundland delegations in the (-ommons House, and in tho other House ; and in order to keep them in anything like good humor, and to enable tho Lieutenant- Governor of Newfoundland to carry on his government with anything like ease and com- fort, their lands, mines and minerals will have to be administered, not with a view to Federal revenue — even though to that end they are costing the direct payment of 81.')0,000 a year— but with a viow to New- foundland popularity. In fact, I think it will bo found that tho management of these properties will be curried on more with a view to tho development and proQt of Newfoundland, than for any profit of tho people of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Ujiper and Lower Canada. Every man, woman and child — from the Lieutenant- Governor downwards — connected with New- foundland, will regard it as a fit article of ]io|itical faith, that they must bo worked with a .special viow to the px'xt future of •hat great country. And tl;o jonsequenec will bo many little passag;;.* between tho province and tho Federal ( overnment, not advantageous to the latter, but illustrative of the way in which governments too often have to deal with things for which they have had to pay. Well, sir, I pass to the matter of the debts ; and these, it must bo acknowledged, are rather more important than the a.ssets. (Hoar, hear.) There is no mistake about that; though there might seem to be a mistake about tho resolutions on this subject, were you to take their letter only. The sixtieth resolution says that the General (iovornnient shall a.ssume all tho debts ami liabilities of each province; while the sixty-Iirst has it, that part of our Canadian debt is to be boruc by Upper and 99 I Lower (Jauada rospootivoly. In a sodbo, I will prcsoutly explain. I think tho bixtiuth rcNolutiou about telU tho truth, or rnthor, I ou^ht to Hay, IuIIb short of it. But it requires ouu to work tho oraclo out, to follow the calculation through, in order to Hee timt il douH flo, that those dehtti will indeed all — and nioro than all — fall, directly or indirectly, on the Federal Government. Meantime, on our way to that part of my iir^ument, I sot it down that under tho HixtyiirHt resolution there is an amount of reserved debt which, in a certain man- nor, is to fall on Upper and Lower Canada respectively. Pretty much na it was just now in tho ordnance property, so hero, we cannot get an intelligible answer as to what these reserved debts arc, as avainst either province, or what tho assets are that each is to take as an oH'sot to them. Hut, for tho purpose of constituting tho staled debt of the future Confcdordtion, Upper and Lower Canada, we are told, are to throw into it an amount of 802,500,000, the surplus of their debt being nominally left to be borne by themselves, after they shall have become contederated ; Nova Scotia, on the other hand, is to be allowed to increase ha- debt to $8,000,000; and Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island arc to throw in theirs at tho nominal figure they stand at now. But, by an ingenious contrivance, tho aggregate real debt of tho country is to bo, in effect, a good deal more than the aggregation of these figures would give. Upper and Lower Canada, to begin with, as wo have eeen,aie, besides, separately to pretend to bear the weight of their con- siderable excess of debt over the 8t')2,500,000, or $25 a head, allowed under this arrange- ment. Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, should they not increase their debts to bo :iBsumcd up to this figure of §25 a head, are to bo paid interest; at five per cent, on any amount of Khortcoming in that behalf they may bo guilty of. And Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island are to be paid in- terest iit the .some rate, on the amount to whieii their smaller debts fall short of this sumo normal 625 allowance. Eor practical purposes, therefore, the debt.s of the four Lower I'rovincea arc thus brought up to this .standard level. The Federal Government is to pay interest on them to that tunc — if not to creditors of those provinces, then to the provinces thcmselve. And we are tostart with a clear, practical debt of $25 a head for every man, woman, and child in the Confederacy. Incurred or not, wo start with it as duo, and pay accordingly. And there are, besides, those amounts of debt left nom- inally to tho charge of Upper Canada, as to which I shall have a word more to say shortly. Meantime, I proceed to our third head — of revenues. And here, tho first and most striking fact is, that tho Federal Goyornnient IS to make yearly grants, payable, by tho way, semi-annually and in advance, to each province, in p.oportion to its population as shown by tho census of 18.glish kings to bo listen"'' to? It was even the same Ion before at home. When the had its abundanuc oi resources, En. oared little for tlicir parliaments, liut when their resources were exhausted, and they could not borrow easily, and had to ask for taxes, then the House of Commons began to acquire power, and, in course of time, became the body it is now. I shall be surprised if we do not lind, in the event of this Confederation taking place, that for some time our pro- vincial legislatures, whether they consist of one chamber or of two, will be less powerful for good than many would wish to have them, that the machine of state will not bo altogether driven by their means. But there is another result, about wliich there can be no question. With one accord, not in Newfoundland merely — I was hinting a little while ago at what would be tke case of Newfoundland, as to its lands, mines and minerals — not there only, but in all the pro- vinces — the provincial governments will, in a quiet way, want money, and the provincial legislators and people will want it yet more ; grants for roads and bridges, for schools, for charities, ibr salaries, for contingencies of the legislative body — for all manner of ends they will be wanting money, and where is it to come fiom? Whether the constitution of the Provincial Executive savors at all of re- sponsible government or not, be sure it will not bo anxious to bring itself more under the control of the legislature, or to make itself more odious than it can help, and the easiest way for it to get money will be from the Gen- eral Government. I am not sure, either, but that most members of the provincial legisla- tures will like it that way the best. (Hear, hear.) It will not be at all unpopular, the getting of money so. Quite the coutrai-y. Gentlemen will go to their constituents with an easy conscience, telling them : " True, we had not much to do in the Provincial Legis- lature, and you need not ask very closely wha* else we did ; but I tell you what, wc got the Federal Government to increase the subvention to our province by five cents a head, and see what this gives you — $500 to that road — $1000 to that charity — so much here, so much there. That wc have done ; and have we net done well ? " (Hear, hear.) I am afraid in many constituencies the ans- wer would be ; " Yes, you have done well ; go and do it again." I am afraid the provin- cial constituencies, legislatures and executives will all show a most calf-like appetite ior tin; milking of this one most maguiticcnt govern- ment cow. Hon. J. S. MACDONALD— There will be more municipal loan funds. Mr. DUNKIN— Yes, that is one of the analogies, and there is another even nearer. Years ago, wc in Canada said we would forever give a certain fi.Kod sum per annum for an edu- cation fund. It was to be divided, in a cer- tain ratio, between Upper and Lower Canada. But from time to time, as the census shewed changes of their relative population, the divi- sion was to bo altered. In a little while this alteration of ratio gave Lower Canada lo.-^s money and Upper Canada more. " 01> ! but,' said tlio Administration, " wc cannot do that with Lower Canada. After having had distrib- uted to her so matiy thousands a year, she could not stand having ever so much less. No, no ; 40 we cannot do that. What shall we do, then ? In our estimates we will put in a vote for Lower Canada, just to keep her figure up to the mark of what she has been receiving. And what then ? Why, of course, wo must add a vote for Upper Canada in the sajne pro- portion, just to take her so much further beyond her former figure." (Hear, hear.) To be sure, I do find, with reiorcnce to this subven- tion, a pleasant little expression, which one wishes may be carried out. It is to bo " in full." " Such aid shall be in full settlement of all future demands upon the General Gov- ernment for local purposes, and shall be paid half-yearly, in advance, to each province." . Yes, sir, so the text runs. But suppose our- selves in the time of our first, or second, or third Federal Cabinet, consisting of its six or more sections, of course ; and, for the sake of my argument, I will suppose a great deal, that every one of these sections controls com- fortably the delegations from its own province in the two Houses of Parliament, that the machine is working beautifully, that there is no lieuteuantrgovernor crusty, no provin- cial administration kickins' over tlie traces, and no provincial legislature giving any other trouble than by its anxioty to bo well paid. I will suppose even that this halcyon state of things has gone on for some time. But one or two or more of tlie provinces begin to feel that they cannot do without having more money. And the pressure will be such upon the Provincial Jjcgislature and upon the Ijicuicnant-Governor, and upon the delegations to the General jjegislature, and upon the section of the Federal Executive representing each sucli province, that it never c:in be long resisted ; tlicre will be trouble if it if", and things must be kept pleasant. (Hear, licar.) (.)ne mode — the most obvious, though the loa.st scientific — will be just to inoreaac the sub- vention from eighty to eighty-live, or even to eighty-two or cighty-ono cents a head. An additional cent a head from the Federal Exuhccjuer would be an object — a low cents a head would be a boon. Or suppose the demand took this form : suppose the people — say of Upper or Lower Canada — should way, *' Those Newfoundlanders are getting §150,000 a year for their lands, mines, and minerals ; and the Federal Government is positively ailinini.stering those lands, mines, and minerals, not for Federal profit, but more i'or the advantage of tint province than we find wc can admiuist«r our own ; the General (jovernment, therefore, must take our lands, iiiinuH, and minerals, and give us also an C(|uivak'nt." Tliat is one way of doing the thing ; and, when the timo comes for making that sort of demand, depend upon it that it will sound singularly reasonable in the cars of the provinces whose representatives nhall make it ; and if two or three provinces shall join in the demand, my word for it, the thing will soon be done. The same sort of thing may be looked for in reference to the New Brunswick timber export duty and the Nova Scotia mineral export duty. Here is one form of the cry that may be raised — " You give those exceptional privileges to New Brunswick and Nova Scotia ; give them, or some equiva- lent, to us also." With common ingenuity lots of such cries may be nicely got up. But for everything so given, much or little, to what- ever province, you will have to do the like for all the rest, and the figure will be alarming before you get to the end. And even this is not all. Not only will you have these com- paratively direct demands — more or less in- geniously, but always irresistibly — made, but you will have demands made in a more indi- rect form which it will be yet easier to carry, from their consequences not being so clearly seen, and which will therefore be still worse in their etfccts. I speak of that tremendous catalogue of outlays which may be gone into without the appearance of a grant to any par- ticular province — the costly favors which in ly be done in respect of intcr-piovincial ferries, steamship lines between or from the provinces, railways between or through the provinces, telegraph linos, agriculture, immigration, quarantine, fisheries, and so forth. There will be claims of every description under ;ill these heads ; and besides them theio will bo the long roll of internal improvements of all kind*, whether for the benefit of one or of more than one of the provinces. For any local work in which it can be at all pretended that it is of general interest, pressure may bo brought to boar upon the General Government and l.ie^ame in population, two and a half mil- lions, while we have nioio shipping than they. Mr. DUx\KL\— I fear that if wo were to come into collision, a good deal of shipping might chauic hands. At any rate, at the best, wc should have a pretty tight time of it. (Hear, hear.) An Hon. MEMBER— Better put a bold face on it. Mil. DUNKIN— Yes, yes. " Hrag is a good dog, but Holdfast U a better." Then, there is th^ State of New York, which would certainly be more than a match for Upper Canada — and New York is but one of several states conterminous with Upper Canada. Who in his .'cnses, sir, thinks of these provinces as able, of themselves, to hold their own against New England, New I'^ork and tho rest of the tier of states along our frontier '! And yet we are talked to as if Confedeiatiia were about to make us the 7 -New Eng- third or fourth power, or maritime power in tho world ! Hut what I was saying raoro particularly was, that too much nf territory, and above all too much of expo.-tie affairs. With the permi.«siou of the Hon.'^e, I will touch as hrielly as I can on tlie-e four classes of considerations, and then cease longer to weary the House, i begin, then with the considerations connected wiili the attitude of the United States, whic'' are urgetonj-hou.se annoyances — j assport annoy- niiccs ; from their lonienting difTjcultics IiLi", and taking advantige oi' our local ji'aiiu.>ies; from the multiplied worries they may cause us by a judici'us alternation of biillyiiig and coaxing, the thousand inci- dents wliieii may easily be made to happen if tliious are not going on (juite well in this co;intry, and the people and government of tho States are uundod to make us ieel the conse- ((uences of our not getting on (piite so well aa we mij,iit. Whether the union of the Slates is restored or not, this kind of thing can go on. The danger is, that either tho whole United States, or tho.se portions of tho United States which arc near us, and which arc really stronger than we are, and enterprising enough and am- bitious enough, and not very Ibnd of u.s, and not at all fond of the Mother Country, not at all unwilling to strike a blow at her and to niake us sub.servient to their own interest and ambition — the danger is, I say, that tho United States, or those portions of tho United States near us, may avail themselves of every oppor- tunity to perplex us, to embroil us in trouble, to make us come within the disturbing iu- fluenees of their strong local attraction. — Now, to pretend to tell nic that the United States or the Northern States, whichever you please, arc going to hi frightened, from a policy of that kind, by our taking upon our- selves great airs, and forming ourselves into a grand Confederation, is to tell me that their people are, like the Chinese, a people to bo frightened by loud noises and ugly grimaces. (Laughter.) I do not believe they arc. They 12 i^l W 1 arc uot to be frightened by any union we can make here. They liave aviiong them politi- cians, to say the least, quite as bold, shrewd and astute as any we havo here. The dan- ger will just be that of our having agitation of our own goinj; on here, and internal troubles, while these annoyances on the part of our neighbors across the border are being multi- plied upon us ; and that England may at the same time be feeling that the tie between her and us is more or less relaxed, and that wrong and humiliation put upon us do not concern her so much as tliey would have done when our connectiim with her was practically more intimate. In and beibre 1840, after the troubles which had been distracting Canada were put down, it was declared, and perfectly well understood, that the Imperial Government was simply determined to hold on to the con- nection with this country. And the know- Icdse of that expressed determination gua- ranteed us a pretty long term of comparr^'ve feedom from annoyances and trouble of the kind to wliicli I have been referring. If, now, a diflfercut idea is to prevail — if the no- tion is to go abroad that we are, by creating ourselves into a new nationality, to be some- what less connected wiih the Empire than these provinces heretofore have been, then I do apprehend that a very diiferent future is before a,i, and that in all sorts of w.iys, by vexa.ions of all kinds, by the fomenting of every trouble within our own borders, whether originating from abroad, or only reacted on from abroad, we shall bo exposed to dangers of the most serious kind. And, therefore, so far from seeing in ourrelations towards the Uni- ted States, any reason why we should a.s8ume a position of semi-independence, aa attitude of seeming defiance towards them, I find in them tbe strongest reason why, even while regard- inff. or af^'eetino; to "e^ard them as little as possible, we should endeavor to make all the world see that we are trying to strengthen our union with the Mother Country — that we care far less about a mere union with neighboring provinces, which will frighten no one in the least, but that we are determined to maintain at all hazards and draw closer, that connection with the Mother Country which alone, so long as it lasts, can and will protect us from all serious aggression. (Hear, hear.; But we arc told that, on account of a variety of considerations connected with the state of opinion at home, and out of deioronce to that opinion, we must positively carry out this scheme. Well, there arc two or three (,ues- ^ions to be ansvyered here. What is that opinion at home ? What is it worth ? And what sort of lesson does it teach us ? There are some distinctions which, in my judgment, must bo drawn with reference to this. There are diflferent phases of opinion prevailing at home, which must bo taken into account. I have great respect for some homo opinioiiS. Many things they know in England much better than wo do. Some things they do not know 80 well. They do not know so much about ourselves as wo do ; and they do not occupy their minds so much with that class of questions which relate merely to our interests, as we at any rate ought to do ; and on these matters I am not sure that we shall act wisely if we yield at once to the first ex- pressions of opinion at home. B 't now, sir, what is the opinion at liomc, or ».,Lhcr, what are the opinions entertained at home, with reference to this measure ? Of course, I do not iit,nd to weary the House with a long detailed statement on this subject. But I must say this — and I do not think that any one who knows anything at all about it will contradict what I state — there is at home a considerably numerous, and much more loud- speaking than numerous, class of politicians who do not hesitate to say that it is not for the interest of England to keep her colonies at all. Mil. SCOBLE— Not numerous. Mr. DUNKIN— Well, I think they are ra- ther numcrci'.s and pretty influential, and they make a good deal of stir ; and some of them being in pretty high places, there is danger that their views may exercise a good deal of influence upon public opinion ai homo. Tliere are many influences ai work at home, tending to the prevalence of the idea that the sooner the colonies leave the Mother Country, the better — and especially that the sooner these colonics leave the Mother Country, the better. There is a very exaggerated notion at home of danger to the peace of the Empire from the maintenance of British supremacy in this part of the world. That is the I'act ; and there i.s no use in our shutting our eyes to it. Wu may just as well take it, uncomfortable and hard fact as it may be. If we choose to ii'll our- selves it is not the fact, wo arc only hum- bugging ourselves. (Hear, hear.) That is one point, as regards public opinion iu England. Another is, as tothcappreei:ition, at home, of this particular sehenie. I take it, that what wc are tnld on thi-i houd by those wh(/ urge this scheme upou us, •ibout opinion at home, amounts to this — that at home this scheme is regardc aa with very great favc», that we are ex- pcotod to adopt it, and that if we do not adopt it, it will be the better for us with reference to home public opinion. Well, the questions for ua are : What is the opinion at home about this scheme ? What is the opin- ion entertained in high quarters as to its goodness or badness ; and if there is an opin- ion in favor of the scheme being adopted, from what considerations docs that opinion, to a great extent, prevail ? I am not going into these questions minutely, but I must be al- lowed to make a remark or two as to the opinion expressed by Her Majesty's Govern- ment wiih regard to this scheme. I have al- ready, to some extent, alluded to the dispatch of the Colonial Secretary ; but in this con- nection, I must allude to it a little further. (Hear, hear.) It is clear from that dis- patch that the Colonial Secretary wrote under these impressions : first of all, he was under the idea that this scheme had been drawn up by tlie representatives of every province, chosen by the respective governors, without distinction of party. That was not quite the case. There were representatives from the two leading parties in each of the other pro- viuces, but it was not so as regarded Lower W* Canada. (Hear, hear.) The Colonial Se- cretary was, besides, evidently under the im- pression that when these gentlemen came to- gether, they gave the matters before them the most mature deliberation . He says : — ' ' They have conducted their deliberations with patient sagacity, and have arrived at unanimous con- clusions on questions iavolving many difficul- ties." The " patient sagacity" was exercised for seventeen or nineteen days, and the " ua- animous conclusions " were, after all, certainly not unanimous. The Secretary goes on to say :— Hof Majesty's Goverument have given to your despatch and to the reaolutions of the Confer- e;ice, their most deliberate consideration. They have regarded them us a whole, and as having boon designed by those who framed them, to establish as complete and perfect a union of the whole, into one government, .is the circumstances of the case, and a due consideration of existing interests, would admit. They accept them, there- fore, as beinii in the deliberate judgment of those best qualified to decide upon the subject, the l)e8t framework of a nionsure to bo pivssed by the Imperial Parliament for attaining that most desirable result. Her Majesty's Government thus take for granted a " deliberate " examination, which most unquestionably never has been given to this crude project. Now, with all this, with the impression that .nen of all parties had here acted in combination, when in truth they have done no such thing ; that patient sagac- ity had been expended on the framing of the scheme, when in truth there was nothing of the kind ; that the conclusions were unani- mously arrived at, which again waa not the fact; with all this, Her Majesty's Government have only come to the point of giving a very general, and, as any one who reads the dis- patch can see, a very qualified approval of the scheme. First, an objection is raised as to the want of accurate determination of the limits between the authority of the Central and that of the local legislatures. I will not read the words, as I read them last night, but no one can read the dispatch without seeing that the language of the Colonial Secretary on that point is the language of diplomatic disap- proval (Hear, hear.) Though he gives a gen- eral approval, he criticises and evidently does not fipprove. He sees an intention, but calls attention to the foct that that intention is not clearly and explicitly expressed. He then goes on and makes another objection — the financial. His language is this : — Her Majesty's Government cannot but express the earnest hope, that the arrangements which may be adopted in this respect may not be of such a nature as to increase — at least in any con- siderable degree— the whole exiienditure, or to make any material addition to the taxation, and thereby retard the iiitornal industry, or tend to impose now burdens on the commerce of the country. The hope that it will not be is the diplomatic way of hinting a fear that it may be. When Her Majesty's Government is driven to " hope" that these arrangements will not in- crease in any considerable degree the whole expenditure, or make :iny material addition to taxation, and thereby retard internal indus- try, or tend to impose new burdens on tiio commerce of the country, it is perfectly clear that they sec that in tl. scheme which makes them tolerably sure it will. And then we have a third objection : — Her Majesty's Government are anxious to \o:n' no time in conveying to you their general ap- proval of the proceedings of the Conrerenru. There are, however, two provisions of great im- portance which acorn to require revision. Tin' first of these is the provision contained in th:^ 44th resolution, with respect to the exercise of the prerogative of pardon. That is emphatically declared to be entirely 54 ■4 4 M nrrong. And then comes the fourth objection : " The second point which Her Majesty's Gov- ernment desire should bo reconsidered" — and this phrase is positively, so far as words can give it, a command on the part of Her Jla- jesty's Government that it shall be recon- sidered : — The second point which Her Majesty's Govern- ment desire should be reconsidered is the consti- tutioD of the Legislative Council. They appre- ciate the considerations which have influenced the Conference in determining the mode in which this body, so important to the constitution of the Legislature, should be composed. But it iippears to them to require further consideration whether, if the members be appointed for life, and their number be fixed, there will be any sufficient means of restoring harmony between the Legis- lative Council and the popular Assembly, if it shall over unfortunately happen that a decided difference of opinion shall ftrise between them. These two points, relating to the prerogative of the Crown and the Constitution of the Upper Chamber have appeared to require distinct and separate notice. Is not that a pretty emphatic dissent? Questions of minor consequence and matters of detailed arrangement may properly bo reservfd for a future time, when the provisions of the bill intended to be submitted to the Imperial Parliii- ment shall come under consideration. So, sir, tliore are more objections still which the Colonial Secretary has not stated. He gives a general sanction, but spcciiies four matters, two of which bo distinctly says must be altered, and the other two be does not ap- prove of, and he says that other matters — too nuiucrous, I suppose, to specify — must be reserved for remark at a future time. Wj;jl, just at the time that this despatch made its appearance, tliere was an article in the London Tunis, a passage from which I will read in this connection, though it may seem to bear on a somewhat dlHercnt branch of the (jucstion from that with wliicli I am just more parti- cularly dealing. The London 7V/»m, referring in this despatch, makes use of these expres- sions, and 1 beg the attention of the House to thorn, because they give the keynote of a gre it deal of tiic public opinion at home with rcierence to this matter : — It is true wc are not actually giving up the American colonies, — nay, the despatch v.e are quoting does not contain the slightest hint that Bucli a po.^'sibiiity ever crossed the mind of the writer; but yet it is perfectly evident — and there is no use in concealing the fact — that the Con- lederution movement considerably diminishes the dilhcully which would be felt by the colonies in separating from the Mother Country. Even now the North American Confederation represents a state formidable from the numbers of its hardy and energetic poi)ulation, and capable, if so united, of vigorously defen("'\g the territories it possesses. A few years will add greatly to that population, and place Canada, Hochelaga, Acadia, or by whatever other name the Con- federacy may think fit to call itself, quite out of the reach of invasion or conquest. Such a state would not only be strong against the Mother Country under the inpossible supposition of our seeking to coerce it by force, but it might be separated from us without incurring the disgrace of leaving a small and helpless community at the mercy of powerful and warlike neighbors. Here, then, is the somewhat less diplomatic utterance of the Times, on the occasion of the appearance of this despatch. It is perfectly true that no hint was given officially, when this scheme was sent home, that it contem- plated separation. Perfectly true, that in the answer there is no hint that separation is con- templated. But it is perfectly true, also, that the leading journal instantly sees in it, and seizes at, the possibility— first, of its greatly facilitating our going — and, secondly, of its greatly lacilitatiug, on the part of the Mother Country, the letting of US go. I siiall come back to this branch of the subject presently, after I shall have quoted from a much mt)re important expression of public opinion thdii any article in the Times. Meantime, I must refer to thellanguage of Her Majesty's ^iieceli from the Throne. It has been read during this debate already, nnd has been read as il it contained the most emphatic approval possible of this whole scheme — so ompiiatic an approval, that even to assume to discuss it now would seem to amount almost to treason. This language, of course, it is needless to say, is that of Her Majesty's Imperial advisers, and is to be read in connection with what Her iMajesty's Government have said about this plan in the Colonial Secretary's des- patch — that before it is passed into an enactment, it will rccjuire a good tieal of revision. We may be told hero that the document before us is a treaty, on which not a lino or letter of amendment can be made by us. Hut Her Majesty's Government clearly understand that they arc not bound by it, and that thoy are to alter it as much as they please. They won't give the pardon- ing power to these lieutenant-governors ; tliey won't constitute the Legislative Council in this way ; they won't look with iudifFercuce to the incurring of unheard-of expenses, and the baiupcring of comuicrco which they 55 th«y consider to be implied in this scheme. No, they arc to look into this thing, to look into the detailti of what they evidently think to be a pretty crude echemo ; while wo, who are most interested, are rcqaircd by our local rulers not to look into it at all, but just to accept it at their hands as a whole. The language addressed from tho Throne to the Imperial Parliament is this : << Her Majesty has had great satis- faction in giving Her sanction " — to what ? — " to the meeting of a conference of dele- gate^ from the several North American Provinces, who, on invitation from Her Majesty's GoverLor General, assembled at Quetec." Certainly; we knew that before ; tliey assembled without Her Majesty's sanc- tion, but they got her sanction afterwards to their having so assembled. " These dele- gates adopted resolutions having for their object a closer union of those provinces under a central government. If those reso- lutions shall be approved by the provincial legislatures, a bill will bo laid before you for carrying this important measure into effect" — not for giving full eff"ect to the details of this scheme, but tor carrying the measure — the closer union — in the shape tho Imperial Government may give it, into eff'ect. That is all. (Hear, hear.) Take this along with the despatch of tho Colonial Secretary. If it is a doclaration that this thing is a treaty, which may not be amended by us without flying in the face of Her Majesty's Govern- luout, 1 do not understand the meaning of words. (Hear, hear.) In connection with the Speech from the Throne, we had, the other night, some notice taken, on the floor of this House, of language used in discuss- ing the address in the Imperial Parliament. Lords Cl.'VIlKMONT, H0U(UIT0N,GUANVILLE and J)kuijy had something to say in respect of tbis •solicuie in the House of Lords; as also, Mr. HANnimy Traov in the House of Commons. 1 do not attach great weight to wliat was there said, because there really was little said any way, and that little could not indicate any great amount of knowledge upon tho subject treated. However, I will (jU'ifc lirt't what the mover of the address, tin; Karl uf (!f.AUEMt)Nr, said. After refer- liug t(i the war in New Zealand, he went tin : — My IjohI.'*, iilthiniHrb these eciaration of ludepcMidence; and by the otlier. to be moved by thu same impulse of empire that lias been leading to the e.^tab- lishmoiit of tiio Kingdom of Italy. iMii. SCOJJLK — It is a case of wjut of information. Mil. DIWKIN— Yes, 1 have no doubt it i.s a ease of want of correct information, and not the only ono of its kind. And now, air, I'or l.orJ Df.iiuv's remark.M, whicli also have been qimttd hero. C'l rtainl}', they are ill a different, and to my mind a more ,s:itis- factory, tone ; but they aro suggestive, for al J tbat, of an idea that is unwelcome. After remarking on certain passages indioativc, in his view, of unfriendly feeling on the part of the United States towards Great liritain and towards us — their threatened abrogation of the reciprocity treaty, arming ou the lakes, and so forth — Lord IJerby says : — Under these circumstances I see with additional satisfaction — [Meaning of, course, though cour- tesy may have disallowed the phrase, " less dis- satisfaction," for he certainly did not see those other matters with any satisfaction at all] — I see with additional satisfaction the announce- ment of a contemplated im ortant step. I mean the proposed Federation of the Hritish Americati Pro- vinces. (Hear, hear.) I hope I may regard that Federation as a measure tending to constitute a power strong enough, with the aid of this country, which I trust may never be withdrawn from those provinces, to ae mire an importance which, separately, they cou d not obtain. (Hear, hear.) If I saw in this Federation a desire to separate from this country, I shoul ! think it a matter of much more doubtful policy and dvantage ; but I perceive with satisfaction, that no such wish is entertained. I'erhaps it is premature to discuss, at present, resolutions not yet submitted to the diflerent provincial legislatures, but 1 hope I see in the terms of that Federation an earnest desire on the jiart of the provinces to maintain for themselves the blessing of the connection with this country, and a determiped and deliberate preference for monarchical over republican insti- tutions. (Hear, hoar.) Now, what I have to say is this, that while I think no man ought to find fault with any of the sentiments here uttered, they are yet the utterances of a statesman who betrays in those utterances at least, as they sound to me, a certain amount of searcely-coucealcd apprehension. When a man in the position of Lord Derby, master of the whole art of cxpie.-sion, speaks at once so hypothetically and so guardedly, falls back upon " I hope, I may ieii,ard," " 1 trust may never be," " 1 hope I sec," and so forth, one feels that there is an under-current of thought, not half concealed by such expres- sions, to the effect that there is too much danger ot thu very things so liopcJ and trusted against coming to pass at no very distant jieriod. Hon. Atty. Ge.n. CAUTIEII— I. ,^oc the reverse of that, (^llear, hear.) Mil. DIJNKLX— Well, the ho;., gentle- man sees differently from what 1 Jo. If there had been no doubt whatever in the mind of Lord Ueuhv, as to our want of strength, the growth of the anti-colonial party at home, and the tendency ot this and cla ha< I an' thi' pai 57 in gciitlo- do. If f ill tlic want ot iculoiiial ot this aobeii c towardB separation, bis hope and tru^t to the oontrtk /, would either have bo(ulution of about four millions, with un aggregate revenue in ste:- ling of about two miltions and a half, and carrying on a trade (including exjiorts, imports and inter- colonial commerce) of about twenty-eight millions sterling per annum. It we consider the relative positions of Canada and the Maritime Provinces — the former possessing good harbors, but no back country, the toia;er an unliuiited supply of cereals, but lew minerals ; the latter an unlimited supply of iiun and cuul, but little agricultural produce. 1 he commercial advai - tages of union between states so circumstanced, are too obvious to need commei t. The completion of the Intercolonial Kailway, and the probable annezatioD of the tertile portions of the North- WMt«rn territory to the uaw Confederation, a portion only of the probable consequences formation, but in which Europe and the I at large will eventually participate. When form a of its formation, but in wbicu riiurope i world at large will eventually participate, the Hon. Mr. MorOUGALL — The hon. gentleman should do justice to the reviowcr. He leaves out an important passage. Mb. i^UNKlN— What is it ? Hon. Mb. ..IcDOUGALL— After the word " formation," the following words are given : — " The benefits of which will not be limited to the colonies alone, but,' &o. Taken with the context, these words are important. Hon Mr. McGEE— Hear ! hear! Mb. DUNKIN — An ironical cheer ia an easy thing to raise ; but 1 fancy my charac- ter hardly warrants the insinuation that I would dishonestly falsify a quotation. I wrote out these extracts hurriedly, the one procurable copy of the Review being sent for while I was writing, and I had no oppor- tunity of comparing my manuscript. I am sorry if in my haste I omitted a single word. [After comparing the passage in the Review with his manuscript, the hon. mem- ber said] : I find 1 have omitted exactly one line — certainly by the merest accident; indeed, if any one can suppose I did it on purpose, he must take mc for a confounded fool. (Hear, hear.) 13ut to continue my (quotation, reading again that last sentence, with its dropped line : — The completion of the Intercolonial Railway, and the probable annexation of the fertile por- tions of the Great North-Western territory to the new Confederation, form a portion only of the probable consequences of its formation, the benefits of which will not be limited to the colonies alone, but in which Europe and the world at large will eventually participate. When the Vi'lley of the Saskatchewan shall have been colonized, the communications between the Red Uiver Settlement and Lake Superior completed, and the harbour of Halifax united by one con- tinuous line of railway, with the shores of Lake Huron, the three missing links between the Atlantic and Pacific ocean will have been sup- plied. Three pretty large linkf, by the way, and it would have been m< re correct if the writer bad f^aid •' three out of four " —the trifle of the Kocky Mountains being still left for a fourth. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Mb. McDOUG ALL— That is very go')d. ' Mr. DUxNKIN— I don't think so; it's rftther too good. I bav« read theae portions 59 », y* of the article to show what we are expected ly this writer to do. We are to buy the Hudson's Buy territory, and take care of it, and uiuke a grand road all noross tlie con- tinent, which Great Britain shrinks from contemplating; herself. And now I will readjust two passages to show how little 8ant:uinc he is of any good to be done by the scheme as regards ourselves, and in the conduct of our own afifiiirs. Hero is one of them : — What we have to fear, and if possible to guard ajfainat, is the constant peril of a three-fold con- flict of authonty implied in the very existence of H federation of dependencies retaining, as now proposed, any considerable share of intercolonial independence. Rather a sugi-estive hint, and whicli, further on, is expanded and cmpha.sized thus: — If, as has been a11e;^ed^ a legislative union is unattainable, because inconsistent with due secu- rities for the rights guaranteed to the Fiench Canadians, by treaty or by the Quebec Act, and Federation is therefore the only alternative, the vital question for the framers of this Constitution is hoiv the inherent weakness of all federations can in this instance be cured, and the Central Government armed with a sovereignty which may be worthy of the nanie. It is the essence of all good governments to have somewhere a true sovereign power. A sovereignty which ever eludes your grasp, which has no local habitation, piovincial or imperial, i.^ in fact no government at all. Sooner or later the shadow of authority which is reflected from an unsubstantial political idea must cease to have power among men. It has bicn assumed by those who take a sanguine view of this political experiment, that its authors have steered clear of the rock ou wh ch the \VAHinN(!Tos Confederacy has split. But if tht- weakness of the Central Government is the vock alluded to, we fear that unless in clear water and smooih seas, the pilot who is to steer this new ciatt will need a more perfect chart than the resolutions of the Quebec Conference alford, to secure him against llie risks of navigation. So far, then, according to the writer of this article, wc have three points settled. He considers, and those for whom he writes and B|ieaks consider, and the Edinburgh Review makes known that itconsiders — first, thnt the retention of those colonies i.i so manifestly dis- advantageous tothc parent state, thatit would puzzle any statosmau to tiud any reason for keeping us ; next, that a result of this mea- suie is to be the early carrying through by us ol undirtakiugs too vast now for England not to bl.iink from; and thirdly, that the measure itself, viewed as a machinery of government for ourselves, is not going to work well. There is still a fourth point. The measure embodies a proffer of fealty to the British Crown — and with no hint but that such fealty, and the correlative duty of protection, are meant both of them to be perpetual. How does our writer treat of this ? He says : — If the Quebec project were to be regarded as in any sense a flnal arrangement, and the equivalent in honor or power to be derived by the Crown from the acceptance of so perilous an authority, were to be weighed in the balance with the commensurate risks, the safety and dignity of the proffered position might be very questionable ; but it is impossible to regard this proposed Feder- ation in any other light than that of a transition stage to eventual independence ; and in this view the precise form which Imperial sovereignty may for the time being assume, becomes a matter of comparatively secondary importance. And, as if this was not warning plain enough, the article closes thus : — The people of England have no desire to snap asunder abruptly the slender links which still unite th»m with their trans- A tlantic fellow-sub- jects, or to shorten by a single hour the duration of their common citizenship. • • • • We are led irresistibly to the inference that this stage has been well nigh reached in the history of our trans-Atlantic provinces. Hence it comes to pass that we accept, not with fear and trem- bling, but with unmixed joy and satisfaction, a volunta-y proclamation, which, though cf iched in the accents of loyalty, and proffering an endur- ing allegiance to our Queen, falls yet more wel- come on our ears as the harbinger of the future and complete independence of British North America. (Hear, rear.) Well, Mr. Speaker, I can only say that if these are the opinions which honorable gentlemen opposite are disposed to " hoa^, hear" approvingly, they are not mine. I find in them an unmis- takable proof that there is an important party at home who take up this measure, and hope to gee it carried through with the mere view to its being a step to absolute independence on our part, and a cutting of the tie between these provinces and the parent state. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I look upon the early i'utting of that tie as a certain result of triis measure; and of that again, I h( 111 the inevitable result to be our early absorption into the republic south of us — the United States, or the Northern States, be which it may (Elear, hear.) It cannot be, tl'Mt wc tin form here an independent state that shall have a prosperowi history. I Bay 60 ajain, I am far from believina; thnt this iden of separation is by any means tho -t certainly weaken the tie between us and the Empire. Our language to England had bet- ter be the plain truth — that we are no beg- gars, and will shirk no duty ; that we do not want to go, and of ourselves will not go ; that our feelings and our interests alike hold us to j her; that, even apart from feeling, we are not ' strong enough, and know our own weaknes-' and the strength of the power near us ; J" .J that the only meoni by which w« can pos 'lj be kept from absorption by that pwer, is ' — and foi that ^ the maintaining now — and for all time that wo can look forward to— of our con- nection with the Mother Land. (Hoar, hear.) We are told, again, that there are considerations connected with the Lower Pro- vinces which make it necessary for us to accept this measure, that it is a solemn treaty entered into with them. Well, a treaty, I suppose, implies authority on the part of those who framed it to enter into it. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— We are asking for that authority now, but you oppose it. Hon. Mr. McGEE — Her Majesty says in her Speech from the Throne at the opening of the Imperial Parliament, that she apf roves of the Conference that framed the treaty. Is not the royal sanction sufficient authority ? .Mr. DUNKIN — Her Majei^y's approval of those gentlemen having met and consulted together, is not even Her Majesty's approval — much less is it provincial approval — of what they did at that meeting. At most, the resolutions are not a treaty, but the mere draft of an agreement come to between those gen- tlemen. Has. Atty. Gen. CARTIER— Oh, yes, it is a treaty, and we are now fighting to up- hold it. Mr. DUNKIN— Well, it is a draft of a treaty if you like, but it is not a treaty. Plen- ipotentiaries, who frame treaties, have full authority to act on behalf of their respective countries. Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER--It is the same as any other treaty entered into under the British system. The Government is re- sponsible for it to Parliament, and if this does not meet your approval, you can dispossess us by a vote of want of confidence. Mr. DUNKIN— The honorable gentleman may h ive trouble yet before he is through with it. Hon. Atty. Gen. • ARTIER— Very well, we will be prepared for it. Hon. j. ri. MACUONALD— It is not so l"ng since the honorable gentleman was voted out, and it may not be 1. ng before he is served the same way again. (Hear, hear, and laugh- ter.) J^J^'j. DUNKIN— Well, I was saying that ^'i'" J is no treaty to which the people either of 'Canada or of the Lower Provinces are at all bound ; and it is very dcmbtful whether the people of the Lower Provinces will not reject it. I am quite satisfied that the people ot Canada ought not to accept it, and I am not 10 very sure but that before the play is played out to the end, thoy will refuse to accept it, especially the people of Lower Canada, where, if it is carried at ah, it will bo by a very small majority. (Hoar, hoar.) But the hon- orable gentleman (Hon. Mr. Cartier) has come over to iny ground that it is not a treaty, but only the draft of a treaty, subject to the disapproval of the House and country. Taking it, however, as a treaty merely be- tween those who entered into it, I am dis- posed to make one admission, that it has one quality such as often attaches to treaties entered into by duly constituted plenipoten- tiaries, and that is, that there seem to be some •ecret articles connected with it. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Attt. Gen. CARTIEK— The gen- tlemen who entered into it represented their governments, and the governments of all the provinces were represented. It is therefore a treaty between these provinces, which will hold good unless the Government is ousted by a vote of the House. Mr. DUNKIN — The honorable gentleman does not, I suppose, forget that when this Government was formed there was a distinct declaration made, that until the plan they might propose should have been completed in detail and l:iid before Parliament, Parliament was not to be held committed to it in any way. (Hear, hear. ) But I was going on to something else, and I cannot allow myself to be carried back. I was saying that, assimilating this to a treaty like some other treaties, it seems to have secret articie.s in it. I find that one of the gentlemen who took pttrt in the negotiations, the Hon. Mr. Hatiiaway, of New Brunswick — Hon. Mr. McGBE — Mr. Hathaway was not here at all. Mr. DUNKIN — I was under" the impres- sion he was ; though I acknowledge 1 have not burdened my memory with an exact list of the thirty-three distinguisluHl gentlemen who took part in the Conlerencu. At all events, he was a member of the Government of New Brunswick, which was a party repre- sented at the Conference. Mr. Hathaway, at a public meeting lately, said that — He occupied a very upenviable i)ositio' . He was under peculiar embarrassintnts, more sc than any other speaker who would address thera. It was well kuown to most of hia audience that ho had been ona of the swum advisers of His Excellency for the j)ast three years. As such he could reveal n j • n i of Council. It was true H'l Excellency had $;iven him permission to make public the correspondence that had taken place on the subject of his resignation, but what- ever rai;^ht be the effect upon himself, there were secrets connected with the scheme that he could not divulge. There were secrets of the scheme that he wa» not free to speak of. And we, too, find here that there are secrets; many matters as to which we may ask as much as we like, and can get no information. But the main point I was coming to is this. Call this thing what you like — treaty or whatever you pleasj — it is not dealt with in the Lower Provinces at all in the way in wliich it is proposed to deal with it here. The Lower Provinces,, wo think, are smaller political communities than ourselves. Their legislative councils, their Houses of Assembly, we do not call quite so considerable as our own. We are in the habit of thinking that among the legislative bodies in the British Empire, we stand num- ber two ; certainly a great way behind the House of Comaions, but having no other body between us and them in point gf importance. (Hear, hear.) The Lower Province.^, I say, are not so big as wo are, and yet huw differ- ently has our Parliament been treated from the way in which their smaller parliaments have been. And the apology, the reason as- signed why we are treated as we are. is, that this thing is a binding treaty, if not yet be- tween the provinces, at least betwoen the governments of the other provinces and the Government of Canada. But how does the Lieutenant-Governor of Nova Scotia address his houses of parliament ? " It is viot my pro- vinces," says he, "and I have no mission to do more than afford you the amplest and freest scope for the consideration of a proposal" — ue does not call it a treaty — he calls it merely " a proposal, which seriously involves your own prospects." I suppose -t does; but, so far from calling it a treaty, he does not call it even an agrccnicnt. Hon. Atty. Gen, CARTIER— But what he says implies that he so regards it. Mr. DUNKIN— Does it? Let ,ne read the whole passage : — It is not my province, and I have no n do moiethaii niTord you the amplest i. scope for consideration of a proposal w ously involve your own prospects, and ence" to whii'h yuu six uld l)e curaiietent to I the wishes and duteiniiue the true iute-e country. I feel assured, however, that b« the result of your deliberations, yoi lission to nd freest hich seri- iii refer- interpret its of the whatever I will de- 69 i' M preeatfl attampts to treat in a narrow spirit, or otherwise than with dispaflsionate care and pru- dence, a question ro broad thnt it in reality covers the prround of ail ( arties, and piecludes it from becominf^ the measure of merely one government or one party. He gives his parliament perfect cartt blatiche to deal with it as they please. Mr. WOOD— As a whole. Mr. DUNKTN — It is a pity tlie same Ian- age was not addressed to us. In that case, r. Sfearxr, I think the motion put into your hands would have been, that you should now leave the chair, in order that we might go into committee of the whole to give the matter careful and becoming consideration. It is not pressed on in Nova Scotia, as it is here, with undue haste. The Lieutenant- Governor, in the next paragraph of his speech, goes on to say : — I need only observe further, without in the least intending thereby to influence your ultimate de- termination, that it is obviously convenient, if not essential, for the legislatures of all the pro- vinces concerned to observe uniformity in the moie of ascertaining their respective decisioiis on a question common to all. I have, therefoie, desired to be laid before rou some correspondence between the Governor General and myself on that point. That correspondence, too, which is to be laid before the Parliament of Nova Scotia, has not been laid before us. (Hear, hear.) I have given the language addressed by this Lieuten- ant-Governor to his Legislature with reference to this " proposal." In what language do the Commons of Nova Scotia reply ? How will they deal with it ? The report from the delegates apjminted to confer upon the union of the Maritime Provinceb, and the resolutions of the Conference held at Quebec, proposinjj a union of the different ]iro- vinces of British North America, togelher with the correspondence upon that subject, will obtain at our hands the deliberate and attentive con- sideration demanded by a question of such ma;:- nitude and importance, ana fraught with c:)iise- i|uence8 so momentous to us and our posteiity. This, sir, is all that the Government of Nova Scotia ask the Legislature of that province; to •ay. And I do not think th.it this course of theirs exactly indicates that they think they have made a treaty by which they must stand or fall, and to every letter and line of which they must force their Legislature to adlicre. If they do rp.;ard it in that light, they have a very indirect way of expressing their ideas, But thii ii not the caM merely in Nova Sco- tia. In Prince Edward Island, every one knows the Government is not bringing this down as a treaty ; in New Brunswick every- body knows that the Government has been more or less changed since the Conference, that a general election is going on, and that a great deal will depend on the doubtful re- sult of that election. Every one knows that the matter is in a very different position in every one of the Lower Provinces from what it is in hero ; that there is none of this talk about a treaty anywhere but here. I would like, however, by the way, to draw the at- tention of the House for a moment to a case in which there undoubtedly was a treaty. I speak of the proceedings which eventuated in the union between England and Scotland. In the reign of Queen Anne, at the instance of the two legislatures, then respectively in- dependent — of England on the one hand, and of Scotland on the other — Her Majesty appointed commissioners to represent each of her two states, and they I'ramed what were declared to be articles of a treaty. They took months to fiaiiie those articlcK ; and twice in the course of their proceedings Her Majesty came down to a«siht personally at their deliberations. Their meeting was au- thorized by acts of Parliament; they were named by rlei Majesty ; they deliberated for months ; and the Queen attended their de- liberations twice. And after they had en- tered into this treaty — -so called on the face of it — the Parliament of Scotland departed from it and insisted on changes which were approved of by the Parliament of England, and the treaty as thus changed went into op- eration. In both parliaments the bills to give effect to it passed through every stage ; originated in Committee of the Whole, and had their first, second and third readings. All was done with the utmost Ibrmality ; and yet there was there unmistakably a treaty solemnly made beforehand. Here we have an affair got up in seventeen days by thirty-three gentlemen who met without the sanction of the Crown, and only got that sanction afterwards. The document they agreed upon is full of oversights, as the Colo- nial Secretary states, and as everyone knows who lias r ad it. Yet our Government regard it ••i.H a sacred treaty — though no one but themselves so regards it — and want to give it a sacredncss which was not claimed even lor that treaty between England and Scotland. ( Hear, hear.) I am at last very near the close of the remarks I have to offer to the House ; but I must say a few words aa to the ►I . li: 63 domostio consideration urged to force us into this scheme. Wo are asked, " What arc you going to do ? You must do something. Are you going back to our old state of dead-lock?" At the risk of falling into an unparliiimentary expression, I cannot help saying that I am re- minded of a paragraph I read the other day in a Lower Province paper, iu which the editor was dealinj^ with this same cry, which seems to be raised in Nova Scotia as well as here — the cry that something must be done, that things cannot go on us they ire. I have not his words here, but tlieir gen(!rul effect was this — " Whenever," says he, " I hear this cry raised, that something must be done, I suspect there is a plan on foot to get some- thing very bad done. Things are in a bad way — desperate, may be. But the remedy proposed is sure to be desperate. I am put in mind of a story of two boys who couldn't swim, but by ill luck had upset their canoe in deep water, and by good luck had got on the bottom of it. Says the big boy to the little one, ' Tom, can you pray ?' Tom confessed he could not cull to mind a prayer suited to the occasion. ' No, Bill,' says he, ' I don't know how.' Bill's answer was earnest, but not parliamentary. It contained a past partici- ple passive which I won't repeat. It was, ' Well, something must be done — and that — soon !' " (Laughter.) Now, seriously, what do hon- orable gentlemen mean when they raise here this cry that " something must be done?" Is it seriously meant that our past is 80 bad that positively, on pain of politi- cal annihilation, of utter and hopeless ruin, of the last, worst consequences, we must this instant adopt just precisely this scheme ? If that is so, if really and truly those politi- cal institutions which we were iu the habit of saying we enjoyed, which, at all events, we have been living under and, for that matter, are living under now, if they have worked so ill as all that comes to, or rather if wo have worked them so ill, I think we hold out poor encouragement to those whom we call upon to take part with us in trying this new experi- ment. We Canadians have hud a legislative union and worked it close upon five and twen- ty years, and under it have got, it is said, into such a position of embarrassment among our- selves, are working our political institutions BO very badly, are in such a frightful fix, that, never mind what the prospects of this parti- cular step may be, it must positively be taken ; we cannot help it, we cannot stay as we are, nor yet go back, nor yet go forward, in any oourw but just this ou«. ^Hear, hear.) If this thing is really this last desperate remedy for a disease past praying for, then indeed I am desperately afraid, sir, that it will not suc- ceed. The hot haste with which gentlemen are pressing it is of ill omen to the deoeived Mother Country, to our deoeived sister pro- vinces, and to our most miserably dco«'ived selves. But the truth is that we are in no such sad case ; there is no fear of our having to go back to this bugbear past ; we could not do it if wo would. Things done cannot be undone. In a certain sense, whatever is past is irrevo- cable, and it is well it should be. True we are told by some of the honorable gentlemen on the Treasury bunches that their present harmony is not peace, but only a sort of armed truce, that old party lines are not effaced, nor going to be. Well, sir, if so, suppose that this scheme should be ever so well dropped, and then that some day soon after these gen- tlemen should set themselves to the job of finding out who is ouckoo and who hedge- sparrow in the government nest that now shel- ters them all in such warm quiet, suppose there should thus soon be every effort made to revive old cries and feuds — what then ? Would it be the old game over again, or a variation of it amounting to a new one ? For a time at least, sir, a breathing time that hap- pily cannot be got over, those old cries and old feuds will not be found to be revivable as of old. Even representation by population will bo no such spell to conjure with — will fall on ears far less excitable. It has been adopt- ed by any number of those who might other- wise be the likeliest to run it down. It will be found there might be a worse thing in the minds of many. Give it a new name and couple it with sufficient safeguard against legislation of the local stamp being put through against the vote of the local ma- jority — the principle tacitly held so, and found to answer iu the case of Scotland — and parliamentary reform may be found no such bug-bear to speak of after all. And as for the bug-bears of the personal kind, why, sir, after seeing all we have seen of the extent to which gentlemen can set aside or overcome them when occasion may require, it is too much to think they will for some little time go for so very much. Like it or not, honorable gentlemen, for a time, will have to be to some extent busy with a game that shall be not quite the old one. The friends of this project, Mr. Speaker, never seem to tire of prophesying to us smooth things, if only it is once first adopted. To every criticism on its many and maaif«st defects, the ready an- i Bwer is, that we do not enough oount upon men's pood sense, j^ood i'eeling, ibrbenranue, and all thut sort of thing. But, sir, if the adoption of this schooio is so to improve our position, is to make everything so smooth, our public men so wise, so pru- to make all dent, and so conttcicDtious^, I should like to know why a mniething of the sumc kind mav not by posaibility be hoped for, even though this project should be set aside. If we are to bo oapuble of the far harder task oi' working out these projected unworkable ^litioal in- stitutions, why is it that we niUKt be incap- able of the easier task of going on without them ? I know well that in uU time the tem- per of those who do not think hus been to put faith rather in the great thing one cannot do, than in the smaller thing one can. " If tho prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it ? " And here too, sir, as so often before, if tho truth must bo told, the one thing truly needed is what one may call the smaller thing — not perhaps easy, but one n)ust hope not impossible — the exercise by our public men and by our people of that amount of discretion, good temper and forbearance which sees something larger and higher in public life than mere party struggles and crises without end ; of that political saga- city or capacity, call it which you will, with which they will surely find the institutioDS they have to he auito good enough for them to use and quietly make bot'xir, with- out which they will as surely find any that may anyhow be given them, to be quite bad enough for them to tight over and make worse. Mr. Speaker, I feel that I have taken up a great deal of the time of the House, and that I have presented but imperfectly the views I am anxious to impress upon it as to this great question. But for sheer want of strength, I might have felt it necessary, at whatever risk of wearying the House, to iio into some matters more thor- oughly, and more especially into that branch of tlie subject which relates to what I may call the alternative policy I myself prefer to th'is measure, and would wish to see adopted and carried out. As it is, I have but to say in conclusion, while warmly thanking the House for the attention and patience with which it has for so many hours listened to me, thut I have said nothing but what I firmly believe, and felt myself bound to say, and thut I trust the sober good sense of the people of these provinces, after full reflection and discussion, will decide rightly upon this the largest question by far that has ever been before them for decision. (Cheers.) I ii titutioDB ugh for ir, with- Ind iin^ , to hd ;ht over I'col thiit tiino of itcd but impresa But for e felt it flag the re thor- ; brunch it I may prefer to adopted it to say ing the ice with tencd to what I d to say, iG of the •eflectioa ipon this iver been