n% ^> v^ >, ^rvj %, IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I ■ 50 l™^ u us 2.5 2.2 2.0 1.8 1.25 \\A 1,6 „ «» ► ^;. % % A Photographic Sdences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 872-4503 :<'. CIHM/ICMH Microfiche CIHM/ICMK Collection de microfiches. Canadian Institute for Historical Microreproductions / Institut Canadian de microreproductions historlques Technical and Bibliographic Notas/Notas tachniquas at bibliographiquas Tha Instltuta has attamptad to obtain tha bast original copy availabia for filming. Faaturas of this copy which may ba bibliographically uniqua. which may altar any of tha imagas in tha raproduction, cr which may significantly changa tha usual mathod of filming, ara chackad balow. D Colourad covars/ Couvartura da coulaur I I Covers damaged/ Couvarture endommagia □ Covars restored and/or 'aminated/ Couverture restaurie eic/ou peiliculAe I I Cover title missing/ Le titre de couverture manque Coloured map»/ Cartas giographiquas an couleur Coloured ink (i.e. other than blue or black)/ Encre de couleur (i.e. autre que bieue ou noire) Coloured plates and/or illustrations/ Planches et/ou illustrations an couleur Bound with other material/ Relii avec d'autres documents n n n Tight binding may cause shadows or distortion along interior margin/ La re liure serr^e peut causer de I'ombre ou de la distorsion le long de la marge int^rieure Blank leaves added during restoration may appear within the text. Whenever possible, these have been omitted from filming/ II s« peut que certainas pages blanches ajouties lors d'une restauration apparaissent dans le texte, mais, lorsque cela 6tait possible, ces pages n'ont pas ^ti film^as. Additional comments:/ Commentaires suppldmantaires: L'Institut a microfilm^ le meilleur axemplaire qu'il lui a iti possible de se procurer. Las details de cet exemplava qui sont peut-dtre uniques du point de vue bibliographique, qui peuvent modifier una image reproduite, ou qui peuvent axiger una modification dans la m^thoda normaie de filmage sont indiquAs ci-dessous. r~n Coloured pages/ Pages de couleur Pages damaged/ Pages andommagdos Pages restored and/oi Pages restaur^as et/ou pelliculies Pages discoloured, stained or foxe< Pages ddcolories, tachatdes ou piqu^es Pages detached/ Pages ditachies Showthroughy Transparence Quality of prir Quality in^gale de {'impression Includes supplementary matarit Comprend du materiel supplimentaire Only edition available/ Seule Edition disponible I I Pages damaged/ I I Pages restored and/or laminated/ pyl Pages discoloured, stained or foxed/ I I Pages detached/ FTj Showthrough/ ry] Quality of print varies/ j I Includes supplementary material/ rn Only edition available/ n Pages wholly or partially obscured by errata slips, tissues, etc., have been refilmed to ensure thid best possible image/ Lea pages totalement ou partiellement obscurcies par un feuillet d'erraia, une pelure, etc., ont M filmies d nouveau de facon i obtenir ia meilleure image possible. This item is filmed at the reduction ratio checked below/ Ce document est filmi au taux de r^ductioi. indiqui ci-dessous. 10X 14X 18X 22X 12X 16X 20X 26X 30X 24X 28X ] 32X re idtails es du modifier er une fiimage es errata to peiure. >n d n 32X Tha copy filmed h«r« has baan raproducad thanks to tha ganarosity of: Legislature du Quebec Quebec Tha Imagas appearing hara ara tha baat quality possible considering the condition and legibility of the original copy and in keeping with the filming contract spacificationa. Original copiaa in printed paper covers are filmed beginning with the front cover and ending on the last page with a printed or Illustrated imprea- sion, or tha bacU cover when appropriate. All other original copiaa are filmed beginning on the first page with a printed or illuatratad imprea- sion and ending on the laat page with a printed or illustrated impression. The laat recorded frame on oach microfiche shall contain tha symbol -^(meaning "CON- TINUED"), or the symbol V (meaning "END"), whichever applies. Mapa, plates, charts, etc.. may be filmed at different reduction ratioa. Thoae too large to be entirely included in one expoaura are filmed beginning in th^ u^ ir left hand corner, left to right and top to bottom, as many framea as required. The following diagrams illustrate the method: 1 2 3 L'axamplaira fiimt fut reproduit grdca d la gdnirosltA da: Legislature du Quebec Quebec Lea imagea suivantea ont *t« raproduiitea avac la plus grand soin, compta tenu de la condition at da la natteti de I'exemplaire film*, et en conformity avec lea conditions du contrat de fiimage. Lea axemplairaa originaux dont la couvarture en papier cat imprimte sent fllmte an commancant par la premier plat at en terminant soit par la darnlAre page qui comporte une empreinte d'impreaaion ou d'illustration, soit par la second plat, salon le cas. Toua lea autras axemplairas origlnsux sont filmte en csmmenqant par la premiere page qui comporte une empreinte d'impreaaion ou d'illustration at an tarminarerated hereafter, in a way that has more than once obtained the approval of this House, and the sanction of the ^ ople of this country, and upon terms more favorable than any that have ever previously been offered to the House. I shall be obliged, Mr. Chairman, to ask the' indulgence of the House while at some considerable length T place before it the grounds upon which I affirm that this resolution embodies the policy of the Parliament of Canada as expressed on more than one occasion, and that th.^se resolutions present ternis for the consideration of this Parliament, for the com- pletion of this work, more favorable than any pre\ iously submitted ; and, Sir, I have the less hesitation in asking the indulgence of the House, because I ask it mainly Iot the purpose of repeating to the House statements made by gentlemen of much greater ability than myself, and occupying positions in this House and country second to no other. But for what took place here yesterday I would have felt warranted in expressing the opinion that the resolutions, grave and important as they are, would receive the unanimous consent of this Parliament. Mr, Blake. Hear, hear. Sir Charles Tupper. I would, I say, have been war- ranted in arriving at that conclusion — but for the very significant indications that were made from the other side m of tho House— because these resolutions only ask hen. gentlemen on both sides of the House to affirm a proposition to which they have again and again, as public men, com- mitted themsehes. 1 need not remind the House that when my rio-ht hon. friend, the leader of the Government, occupied in°1871, the same position which he now occupies, the policy of constructing a great line of Canadian Pacific Railway that would connect the two great oceans which form the eastern and western boundaries of the Dominion of Canada, received the approval of this House. Not only Old the policy of accomplishing that great work receive the endorsation of a large majority in the ravliament of the country, but in specific terms, the means by which that work should be accomplished were embodied m the form of a resolution and submitted for the consideration of Parliament. It was moved by ihe late lamented Sir George Cartier : I' I "That the rsiilway referred to in the Address of Her Majesty concerning the agreement made with Britisli Cohunbia, and adoi)ted by this House, on Saturday, 1st April next, should be constructed and worked by private enterprise, and not by the Dominion Government ; and that the public aid to be e decided as to the mode in wliich it desired the Pacilic Kail way to be constructed, but I have also shovva that tho Government that succeeded that of ray right hon. friend committed themselves in the fullest and most complete manner, not only to the construction of that great work essential to the d-ivelopment of our country, but to its con- struction as rapidly as it was possible, within the moans of the country. The hon. gentleman himself, on the iioor of the House, stated : 8 " Lrt mo say, ro far as tho work is ooncovnoifl, that I have always been an advooato oi' tlie oonstruction of a railway anos.s this contiticiit, but I have iiovcr boliovcd it was within ideration of this Government, his view of what should be done : that was, that no less than two millions, in addition to the railway on Vancouver Island, the telograph line, the waggon road, and all those other considerations, should bo expended annually by the Grovernment within gentle- am now When the hon 1874, as I the Province of British Columbia, man submitted his resolutions in submitting my resolutions, he said : " We ijropose in these resolutions to ask the House to agree to these general piO]jositions. In the first place, we have to ask the House for complete power to proceed with the construction of the road under the 10 terms of the Union with British Columbia, because we cannot throw off that obligation except with the consent of the contracting parties, and we are tLe»f'f'ore bound to make all the provision that the House can enable us to make, to endeavpr to carry out in the spirit, and as far as we can, in the lette!', the obligation imposed on us by law. The British.Columbia section will, of course, have to be proceeded with as fast as we can do it, for it is essential to keep faith with the spirit and, u,s far as possible, with the lettor of the agreement. I attribute a very great deal of importance, indeed, to being alfle to throw in settlers to all parts of ciie country, and filli.ig it witli population, whicli is the only thing which can give, ultimately, oommei'r ial value to the road or prosperity to the country, ft will be obseive.l, Sir, that in the resolutions, as I have mentioned, the Govern- ment iv.ovides for the submission of these contracts to Parlianient. They provide', also, that in case we receive no proposals for the bui'iliug of what are callod the sections in the Bill, that is of the four great divisions, the Goveumient take power to issue proposals to build the road by direct Govecnment agency," * » * The hoii gentleman said that the Canadian Pacific was only to be bn lit by direct Goveniment agency; in the event of there being no proposals, and of there being a failure in carrying out the policy of Parliament, that it should be done by private enterprise, aided by a grant of money and lands. In IhTo, the hon. gentleman having had aii oj^portunit^r of considv ring th proposals which were embodied in his bill, to wh"< h I shall invite the attention of the House more spi'cili "ally, at a later period, obtained authority from the House to go on with the immediate construction of the rail- way b\ ihe direct agency of the Government, for he could not ol>t.nin it in any other way. Having obtained power from the House to. give not only ten thousand dollars of money iicv mile for every mile between Lake Mipissing and the shorey of the Pacific, and twenty thousand aci-es of land per mil;', but also ht^ gave $10,000 in ca^h p.-r mile for the branch, eighty-five miles long, to Pembina, and '20,000 acres l>er mile, and ,$10,0"0 and 20,000 a' res per mile for the Georgian Bay Branch, of eighty-five miles long ; and also he giive ilio further sum of four per cent, interest for twenty- five ye.-.rs upon such sum us might be necessary in order to secure the construction of the work. Now the l.ou. gentle- man, tlie leader of the late Government, stated ^raukly to the I'oiL, > at the outset, that the terms previously provided in I'^T:^, and embodied in the contract made with l!ie Allan Ccmpr^j in 1873, were utterly inadequate, and that it was necessary to the good failh of the country, and that its honor and interests demanded that the railway should be pro- ceeded Avith. He asked and obtained from Piiriiaraont a I 11 * large addition to the means that had been previously passed by Parliament for the construction of ihe work. In 18Y5, after having had a year's experience, he came to the House and said :. " We only let the grading upon this line (Pembina Branch) because we thought it advisab'e, while proceeding thus far, not to proceed any further until we could get .« general contract let for the entire line where we pro- pose to build it now, which would cover all the more expensive parts of construction. For the same reason, we are only letting the grading and bridging from Fort William and Shebandowan, and the same from Eat Portage to Eed River." Again, it will be seen that the hon. gentleman puts forward as his policy, and the policy of the Parliament of 1874, as it had been the policy of the Parliament of 1871 and 1872, that the work should be prosecuted by the agency of a private company, .ided by a grant of money and land. As I have already statec?, the subject was made a matter of reference, in lb75, to Lord Carnarvon, and he proposed that $2,000,000, and not $1,500,000, should be the minimum expenditure on railway works within the province, from the date at which the surveys are sufficiently completed to enable tjiat amount to be expended on construction. In naming this amount His Lordship understood, in the language of the memorandum : "That it being alike the interest and the wish of the Dnniinion rjovern- ment to urge on, with all speed, the completion of the work>; inw to be undertaken, the annual expenditure will be as much in e.xco.'^s oi' tlie minimum of $-,000,000 as, in any year, may be found practio;ibif. Ln-^tly, that on o" before the 2]^t of December, 1890, the railway i-luill bo i'ower, and most conducive to the welfare of the whole Dominion, as well as to satisfy all reasonable men in the Province of British Columbia, which Province had fancied itself entitled to complain of apparent want of good faith in carrying out these obligations. In endeavouring to accomplish this result wo have had serious difficulties to contend with, to which I shall presently allude. * * * The Act of 1874 prescribes that the Government may build the road on contract in the ordinary way, or it may be built on the terms set forth in Section 8, which provides that the Government may pay ijilO,000 in money and grant 20,000 acres of land per mile, with four per cent, for 25 years upon any additional amount in the tenders, to a company to construct portions of the line. The intention of trie Government was, as soon as the surveys were in a sufficiently advanced state, to invite tenders for tlie construction of such portions of the work as, in the judgment of Parliament, might be considered desirable to go on with, and that in the meantime the money that has been spent in grading should be held to be a part of the !i!l 0,000 a mile referred to in Section 8. Whether the Government would be in a position during the coming Session to liave contracts obtained, and submitted to Parliament, for the whole line, at its next Session, is perhaps problematical. " So that the hon. gentleman, in 1876, not only contemplated going on steadily with the prosecution of the work, or very important sections of the work, but he had it in contempla- tion to invite tenders for the construction of the whole I 14 Canadian Paeilic Railway, on terms which as I shall show more specifically hereafter, were largely in excess of any authority we ever obtained from Parliament, and terms that, as I have said before, he himself held, and I suppose conscientiously held, to be utterly inadequate. " If we are able to commence the work of construction this coming year in British Columbia, tliese vails would be required. It may be saicl to be impossible to commence the construction of the road in British Columbia without having rails on the spot." And in that I concur with the hon. gentleman. Mr. Mackenzie. The concurrence comes very late. Sir Chakles Tupper. The hon. gentleman will not, I think, find any ground for making that statement. I think he will, perhaps, allow me to interject that they would have been equally useful if they had not lain quite so long in British Columbia. The hon. gentleman further said : " There are five tliousand tons in British Columbia, and if we erred in sending them there, we have simply erred in our earnest desire to show the people of British Columbia that we are desirous of keeping faith with them, that our speeches were not mere empty promises, and that we were resolved to place ourselves in a position they could not misunderstand." Well, Sir, in 187 iT, after another year's experience, the hon. gentleman again stated the policy, that still was the policy of his Administration, in reference to this work. He said : " The late Administration, in entering into the agreement for bringing British Columbia into the Confederation, had an expressed obligation as to the building of the railway across the continent from Lake JS'ipissing on the east to the Pacific Ocean on the west within a specified number of years. When the present Administration acceded to power, they felt that this, like all treaty obligations, was one which imposed upon them cer- tain duties of administration and government which they liad no right to neglect, and that they were bound to carry the scheme practically into effect to the extent that I have indicated. The whole effort of the Admin- istration, from that day to this, has been directed to the accomplishment of this subject in the wr-r that would seem to be most practical and most available, considering tne difficulties to be encountered and the cost to be incurred. * * * The Railway Act of 1874 provides that 20,000 acres of land should be given absolutely as part consideration for the contract, and $10,000 per mile of actual cash — the land to be subject to certain regulations as to two thirds of it which are provided for in the Act and that tenderers should be invited to state the additional sum, if any, upon which a garantee of 4 per cent, should be given by the Dominion for 25 years afterwards. ♦ * * j mentioned last year, in introducing this item to the Committee of Supply, that we had then advertised, or proposed to advertise— I forgot which in English and Canadian papers, that we hoped, about Jannary, 1877, to be able to advertise for tenders -tr 15 -tr and to supply complete profiles of the line. • • • j think, quite early iu July, or earlier. I think it must have been in June. At all events, we desired to send that advertisement to the public in order that it might invite intending contractors to visit the country for them- selves. I was personally satisfied that an examination of the prairie countries, if not the country east of the prairies to Lake Superior, would show to intending contractors, in the first place, that there was a large quantity of good land, and, in the second place, that the physical diffi- culties to bo overcome were not so serious as people might reasonably anticipate to exist in the centre of the Continent... I do not think the advertisement produced very much of that particular result. Some parties, I believe, have visited the country, the agents of some English companies have visited Ottawa ; some have visited the agency of the Government in London, with a view to examine the plans and profiles, and the Railway Act imder which the contracts will be let ; but the season was an unfavorable one in consequence of the difficulties attending railway enterprise all through the world, and can, perhaps, be fairly considered as one not very fortunate for issuing or proposing the prospectus of a Imge enterprise like this, in a comparatively unknown country, or, I might say, a wholly unknown country. The Government were not able, as 1 stated, to have the profiles all ready in January. They were, however, despatched in sections as sooii as they could be completed, to the Railway Office in London. They have been on exhibition in the Kailway Office here for many months, and the whole of the profiles from Lake Superior to the Western Ocean is, I presum?, either completed or very near it, at the present mo- ment : tliat is, taking the two routes already completed through British Columbia. The Government proposed, as soon as these ai-e entirely com- pleted, to have advertisements issued calling for offers, giving ample time, so that tenders that are received may be received shortly before the open- ing of Parliament at its next Session, in order that Pai-liament may have an opportunity of deciding upon whatever scheme may be then proposed by the Government under the offers to be received." So that, down to 18*78, the House will see the hoii. gentle- man still remained true to the obligation of the rapid con- struction ol the Canadian Pacific Kailway, and of its construction by the agency of a private company, and by a grant of land and money. In 1878, the last occasion on which the hon. gentleman, with the authority of Prime Minister, discussed the question, he said : " There can be no question of this, that it was in itself a desirable object to obtain railway communication from one end of our Dominion to the other, traversing the continent ft'om east to west. So far as the desira- bility of obtaining such a communication may be concerned, there can be no real ditierence of opinion between any two parties in this country, or amongst any class of our population." I am very glad on this important occasion, in submitting resolutioL> C such magnitude for the consideration of this House, to have the authority of the leader of the late Gov- ernment, after years of close and careful examination of this question, given to the ELoase and the country, that it 16 was a matter, not only of vital importance to the country, but ui)on which both parties were agreed, not only in this House, but in the population outside of it. In 1878, the hon. gentleman also said : " I have to say, in conclusion, that notliing has given myseli' and the Government more concern than the matters connected with the Pacific Kaihvay have given. We are alive to this consideration, tliat it is of vast importance to the coimtr> that this road should be built as soon as the country is able to do it without imposing burdqns upon the present rate- payer which would be intolerable." I quite agree with the ho:i. gentleman in that statement, and I am proud to be able to stand here to-day and offer for the hon. gentleman's consideration, and, I trust, after full consideration, his support, a proposition that will secure the construction of that which he has declared to be not only a matter of honor to which the country was bound, but a matter of the deepest necessity to the development of this country, upon terms that will not impos^any intolerable burdens on the ratepayers. Mr. Mackenzie. I shall con-jider it by-and-by. Sir Chakles Tupper. The hon. gentleman continued : "On the other hand, it is tolerably evident that the wealth of the country will be much more rapidly increased if we are able to throw a large population into those hitherto deserted plains, which contain so much land tit for habitation, and which have been wholly unproductive in the commercial interests of our country." Again I invite the hon. gentleman's attention to the obliga- tion that rests upon him to support a plan by which what he designates " deserted plains " may become the abode of an industrious population, not only furnishing a comfortable living to themselves and their families, but increasing greatly the national wealth of Canada, and upon terms which come quite within those which he has approved as offering no obstacle to the progress of this work. And then the hon. gentleman added : " And so with regard to this western and more gigantic work — a work which cannot be estimated unless we have given some thought to it — such is its magnitude — a road which is four times the length of the Grand Trunk, from Montreal to Sarnia, which is five times the length of the road from Edinburgh to London, which traverses our whole territory. Nothing can possibly exceed the importance that is to be attached to tlie building of such a gigantic work, either as regards the ultimate prosperity of the country, ,or its bearing upon our several I'elations to each other in the united provinces." 17 It requires no comment of mine, Sir, to cause a statement from such an authentic source to carry conviction to the mind of every hon. gentleman present as to the obligation that rests upon all parties, both in the House and out of it, to realize what the hon. gentleman has indicated could be realized by the construction of this work. That, Sir, as I have said before, was,— the hon. gentleman thinks, no doubt, unfortunately for the country.— the last occasion on which it became his duty to speak with the authority of the First Minister of Canada in relation to this great question. But as the hon. gentleman stated, the question of constructiou, the question of the steady prosecution and completion of the Canadian Pacific Railway, was not an issue that went to the country at the last election. That had been submitted on two occasions by two First Ministers, representing both the great parties of the country, and on both occasions had received the affirmation of a very large majority of the people ; but as is well-known, a change of Administration took place in 1878, and the hon. gentleman was called again upon to deal with the question. He had that test of patriot- ism applied to him, which is involved in considering a policy from the Opposition benches as well as from the Government benches, and 1 will read to the House the remarks which the hon. gentleman, as leader of the Opposi- tion, made to this House alter the change df Grovernment in 1879. He said : -' We recognize the obligations restins; upon us as Canadians, and, while I assert, in the mo.st positive manner, that nothing could have been done by any Admmistration during our term of office that we did not do, or try to do, m order to accomplish, or realize those expectations which were generated by the Government of hon. gentlemen opposite, in their admis- sion of British Columbia into the Confederacy, I sav,at tlie same time, that we endeavored, not merely to keep the national obligations, but we ventured to a great extent, our own political existence as administrators • we risked our pohtical position for the sake of carrying out to completion in the best way possible, the course which hon. gentlemen opposite had promised should be taken." The hon. gentleman also declared after his five years' term of office had ended, that nothing that had been in the power of the Ministry, of which he was the head, to do, had been left undone to carry to successful completion the policy to which his predecessors had committed the House and the country. He said : '' t )ur proposals was this : We endeavoured, in the first place, to obhain some moduicatiou oi the terms. We despatched an agent to British Col- 18 unibia, and T/ird Carnarvon ultimately ofTered his good services, in order to airivo at some understanding with that Province ; and wo reached the understanding that we would endeavour to build a radway from J.ake Superior to the Pacific Ocean by J8U0; that we should expend a corlain amount per annum in British Columbia, after the surveys were completed and line adopted. The line never was surveyed sufficiently to enable us to reach that conclusion till last year, and, as soon as we had information sufficient to guide us, we adopted the Burrard lulet route, and immedi- ately advertised for tenders lor the construction of that line. The hon. the Minister of Public Works has spoken of our departure from the former terms of the construction .of this road. Now, what was this departure I We had precisely the same provision of land, and equivalent as to money ; only, instead of ^80,()0(VX)0, we named $10,000 a mile, which would have amounted to $20,000,000, and two-thirds of the land was to bo controlled by the Government in respect of sales and management. We also then provided that, in asking for tenders, we should invite tenders to say upon what additional amount they would require a guarantee ot four per cent, for 25 years." The hon. gentleman also proceeded to say : « While we let out contracts between Thunder Bay and Selkirk, with a view to get a road opened into tliat country, it was with the determination to adopt this method, and 1 explained this several times duiiiig my administration. We intended, when we had obtained a full completion ot the surveys, and finally adopted the rou1;p to the ocean, through British Columbia, to endeavour to place the entire work Irom Lake Superior west- ward under contract— the contractors assuming the expenditure already incurred, and allowing themselves to be charged with it aspartof Uie $10,000 a mile to be paid to them on the contracts for the entire line. The hon. gentlemen opposite, and the whole country, are aware that we sol'cted tenders in England for some months upon this ground, before hon. gentlemen opposite came into office ; also that Mr. Sandford Fieiniug, the Chief Engineer, was instructed, while in London, to place himself m com munication with contractors and financial men, and also to obtain the assistance of Sir John Rose, who, in many things, had been the active, energetic and patriotic agent of th( Dominion, with a view to the carrymg out of this scheme." I may mention incidentally, that, while I entirely approve of all these efforts, the hon. gentleman was, I think, never called upon to lay upon the Table of the House any corres- pondence that took place between his Government and these capitalists and contractors, and which did not result in their obtaining a contract. Mr. Blake. Did he ever refuse ? Sir Charles Tupper. He never was asked anything so utterly at variance with the first principles of Govern- ment, as to bring down correspondence that could be attended with no possible benefit to the Government, but be extremely embarrassing to the Government in its future operations. 19 Mr. 13l\ke. That is the true reason. Sir Charles Tupper. I do not hesitate to ly that a more unfortunate precedent, in my judgment, could not ba set than for a G-overnment to enter into lioo-otiat.oii.s with capitalists to ascertain how far they would bo prepared to take up a great work and carry it "to completion, and then bring down the correspondence which could only rellect on the character and standing of the gentlemen inter.^sted, and render gentlemen in future, in similar cases, cautious how far they would discuss negotiations with a G-overn- ment which would later give publicity to those nen-otia- tions. The hon. gentleman further said: ° ."But I am informed tliat, notwithstanding all' our efforts, wo si-mallv failed m obtamin": one single ofR^r (there was one imporfoct offer- made) /onnrfr?'^^*^^"^*^^"?^^^*^® railroad on those terms, which were the grant of 20,000 acres and $10,000 cash, per mile, with a guarantee of 4 per cent. upon such balance as might be represented as necessary. No terms could be more explicit; it would bo difficult to mention terms more favorable, and yet the hon. gentleman seems to expect, by his speech, that tiie colon- '''''5Tn n/v.'^n7'^^ *^^ 1 00,000,000 acres instead of the aO,00(),00() acres and !5>oO,000,000 current money, is somehow or otlier to succeed in gottinc this road built. Ills own remarks showed to-day that it was utterly useless at present for him to expect British railway contractoiv^ or great financial hrms to engage in any railroad enterprise on this continent. Much of this IS due to the want of confidence which he tellg us is experienced in Hnan- cial circles in Britam, and a great deal is due to the unwise legislation in Canada and the Provinces, with respect to railway lines, and lo the fact that foreign capitalists have obtained little or no return for tlie money they have laid out m this country. I have made up my mind long a-'o that It will be exceedingly difficult for a population of 4,000,000 so tS conduct hnancial transactions connected with the building of that railroad of 2,600 miles, across an unknown and almost untrodden continent, in many places extremely difficult. I frankly say now, after my experience in endeavoring to accomplish something in that direction, that I fear we shall be incapable ot accomplishing anything in that direction at present." I need not say to the House that in what he said and antici- pated, the hon. gentleman, I suppose, was sincere. I suppose when he made this utterance it was made in all frankness The House will readily understand the gratification I expected to see spread over the hon. gentleman's counten- ance on learning that all that he lamented he had been unable to accomplish in his official position he occupied in the House, his successors were in a position to present for the consideration of Parliament. I frankly concede, and in doing so I only do justice to the sincere, able and enerfretic ettorts of the hon. gentleman, that he did all that lay in his power during his term of administration to put this work ^2 20 upon lib) foundation on which rurliamont, on two separate occasions and the peoph! liad alliruied it should be phiced, namely, that the work should be done by a private company, aided by grants of land and money. But, Sir, the hon. gentieiiuui stated, on another occasion, that: i> It 'voiM liavo been voiv easv to commence to jrmde the road, and so keep within tlio t.'.rms of tfie Union Aot ; but 1 scoined to practice any Ueceplion in iho matter." I assume, throughout, that the hon. gentleman was acting with entire sincerity, that in all those statements made to the House as to his great desire to advance this great national work, he was giving candid utterance to his sincere opinion— to the opinion that, whether sitting on one side ot the House or the other, he would be prepared to give an equally zealous and hearty support to the policy. But m 187a there was a general election, the result being that niy right hon. iriend beside me was again charged with the important duty of administering the public affairs of this country, and again brought face to face with this great national w^ork, this gigantic undertaking, that for five years had, notwithstanding the efforts of our predecessors, made no very great progress. . We found ourselves, then, in this position, of being called upon to deal with the question of the great Canadian Pacific Itailway, upon w^hich a large amount of public money had been expended, and in a way that w^ould prove utterly useless to the country unless measures were taken promptly to carry, at all events, the w ork under construction to completion, and to supplement it as to make it etlective for the promotion of the objects .or w^hich it was designed. We, therefore, were not in a position to eileet any change of policy as hon. gentlemen opposite wdll see. But we came to Parliament to re-affirm the poliey w^ith which we had started at the inception of that great work, the Canadian I'acific lUilway, involving the policy of utilizing the lands of the great North-West for the purpose of obtaining the construction of that vast woriv There was every reason in the world why we should adopt that policy in the first instance, and to return to it afterwards. Every person knows that the development of this great territory was concerned in this policy ; that day by day it was becoming better known and better under- stood by people whose interest w^ould be promoted by the carrying out of the designs involved in this gigantic under- J t \ 4 I 21 1 ^ taking ; that, irrespoctive altogother of the vital political question of tin; coiiiiocting liritish Columbia with I in; rest of th'^ Dominion, the progress and prosperity of Canada were to be promoted to an extent otherwise unattainable, by the construction of the Canadian I'acific Kailway. We also felt that inasmuch as those lands were, as the leader of the Governmenc truly stated, desert lands, notwithstand- ing their fertility and enormous extent, and practi(!ivlly as useless as if in a ibreign country, so far as Canada was concerned, unless they were di'veloped, and, a& it was stated, their development couM only bo accomplished by completing this grc^at national work, we should come baek to the House with our original policy. We were compelled to take it up as wo found it, and go oii with it as a Government work to make the work, upon which so much had already been expended, of use to the country. But we asked the House to place at our disposal 100,000,000 of acres for the purpose of covering the expendiiure in connection with the Canadian Pacific Kailway We felt that, by that means, we should aga^n place ourselves in a position to save the older and outlying Provinces, ultimately, from additional taxation. AVe desired, by utilizing the lands of the North- West, to obtain the means of recouping to the Treasury every dollar expended, or likely to be expended, on this work. Hon. genilemen also know that, in the development of that policy, we pro- posed to obtain the co-operation of the Imperial Govern- ment. The hon. leader of the Opposition occasionally in- dulges in a quiet sneer at the result of the eflbrts ot this Government to interest the Imperial Government in this enterprise. Now, it is very well known that, armed by this House with the power of utilizing 100,000,000 acres in the North- West, if we could so secure the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway, my right hon. iriond the First Minister, the Minister of Finance and myself w^ent to England in 1870. I do not intend to lay claim to any great results from our mission as regards the railway, but I think I may claim credit lor a fair measure of success that attended our ellbrts, if not our joint efforts, in regard to the business of our res))ective departments. We found the press of England indiiterent, if not hostile, to Canada ; where it was not hostile it w^as iudiiTerenl, in contradistinction to its spirit in dealiiig with Ir- 22 Aiistrolia and tho olhor colonies. Indeed, in many cases, Canada was in ited with marked hostility. Very suddenly, however, a a ry jstrikiiij^', a very marked chancre, took place. When? WLrn llliirl lU'acon.slield, the Prime Minister of that day, stated opejily, or in public, the enormous value of the Urcat North-West ol' Canada I do not mean to say he was entirely accurate in all his statements; but at all events he was quite correct in tht; remark that the most lively imagination could hardly over-estimate the enormous value of the Great North-West and the inviting character of the field it presented to the agriculturists in every part of the world desiring to emigrate. From that day to this every person knows tho mark«'d and instantaneous nature of the change that took place in English puljlic opinion, especially in th(! views of every imjiortant pa])er in the British Islands, and in many in this country as well as in the United States, and also in the amount of attention and interest concentrated on thi^ North- AVest. Tlie pi^ople of this country owe to my right lion, friend this great henelicial change brought about through his persoiuil communication with the Prime Minister of England, and tlie use made of it in dealing with the people ol Great Britain. J.ion. gentlemen know we were tlien obliged to confess we w^ere not able to bring to comph^ion any great scheme for the construction of the Canadian Pacific Kailway. I venture to say we thought we had made some impression on the Imperial Government ■while in England. I think that my hon. friend the leader of the Opposition, who has sneered at our statement that we had obtained tho symi)athy and enlisted the interest of the Imperial Government in relation to the Canadian Pacific Railway, will ilnd a strong corroboration of our assertion in intelligence received to-day with regard to the action of that Government. It can now be believed that our elforts with the Imperial Government w^ill, at no distant day, b. ar good fruit. The Colonial Oftice have done what they never did before — pabli;j;lied, authoritatively, a document recommeiid- ing (^mada as a lii'ld for emigration, I do not know whether the hon. gentleman (Mr. Blake) has S(.'en the news to-day or not; but i am quite sure that, as a patriotic Canadian, he w^ill bi' glad to learn that the London T/w^.s announces the Imperial G' '.'..: y.meiit has promised to bring down a scheme of emigrate: a, 4fi>' ited by the Canadian Government. So the hon. g( -iitieman may I'eel he is not quite in a position to t 23 t repeat, what I am rathor nfraid was to him a graiilyiiiff intimation, that tho present Canadian Oovernmeut had entirely failed in their negotiations. Mr. Blake. Allow mo to remind my hon. iriend that the present Imperial Government is Mr. Gladstone's, and the Government with which he and his colleagues had interviews was the Beaconsfield Government. ^ Sir Charles Tupper. My hon. friend will permit me to point out to him that he is streiiothenin^ my argument. He will permit mo to inform him that from this very place last Session, I stated that, instead of this Government feeling anxious in consequence of the change of Government in England, we were advised, and were of the belief, that the sentiments of the members of the new Ministry were of the most liberal character in relation to Canada. My hon. friend will 'also permit me to iiil'orm him that since the advent of the Liberal Government to power, the right hon., the Premier, my hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture, and myself have been in personal communication with i number of members of the present Administration, and have impressed upon their minds the importauco to the empire of the Government of Great Britain giving due attention to che resources of the great Canadian North-West as a lield for emigration, and as a means of meeting the difficulties of a serious character which liave pret;;3ntocl themselves in rela- tion to th;^ government of the British Isles. So that I do not think my hon. friend has made a great deal by this sug- gestion that there has been a change in the Administration. Ho only strengthens the opinion I have expressed that Canada occupies to-day a position this country has never occupied before. I franlvly confess we did not find, when we went there in 1870, that the time was ripe for success- fully floating the scheme in conncotion with the hundred million acres of land put at our disposal with a view to securing the construction of the Pacific Railway. But, Sir, we sowed the seed, and we kept our eyes steadily directed to such means— those to which I have already adverted— and others by which the position of Canada might be greatly changed in relation to this great work'. ]\Iy hon. friend the Miinster of Agriculture, by a stroke of genius ; and, perhaps, the most _ happy stroke of genius ever shown by any Canadian Minister was that wliich he exhibited when he 24 adopted the policy of showing the confidence the Govern- ment of Canada had in their own country by stating at a time when the agriculturists of Great Britain were very much alive to the unfortunate position they occupied, that partii's with means desirous of emigrating to this country and of cultivating the soil of the great IMorth-Wosi might select able and ^independent delegates to come here and examine this country, and that the Government of Canada- so coiiiUent was the Government ot the favorable cnaracter their report would assiime— would pay their expenses. _ It would be utterly impossible to estimate, from an economical and financial point of view, the advantage which has accrued to Canada by that single act. The whole sentiment of Great Britain in relation to the country has undergone a complete change ; and, when we went back to England at the con- clusimiofthe last Session of Tarliament, we found that Canada occupied, in the Mother Country, an entirely different position from that which it occupied a year beiore. Mr. DilACKENZlE. On Haiilan's account. Sir Charles Tupper. Hanlan is an agency that I do not at all despise. Sir John A. Macdonald. with us. Mr. Blake. You go by rail. Sir Charles Tupper. My right hon. friend says lie iws in the same boat with us. 1 may say I am_ satisfied ol this, thatthe interest he excites in the sportmg world gives Canada greater importance in England. I stated a moment ago that in 1S79, Farliament placed at our di«PO^^j 100 000,000 acres of land, and I have already mtimoted that we were not able with that grant to arrange or any complete scheme for the rapid construction of the railway. In iy»U we again met the House, and we met it with the same policv we adopted the year before, and that was m good faith to take up the obligations that devolved npon us through the acts of ouy predecessors. Although we had not piopounded the policy of carrying on the work by the Government, we took up the work as weioundit. We placed under contract the 127 miles ol ro-^. which the leader of the late Government had announced— by adverlis- Ile rows in the same boat I 25 :< ing ibr tenders — as his inten^on to build; which had assured the people of British Columbia he intended to build, and which, under the terms with Lord Carnavon, he was bound to place under contract. When he met Parliament with the statement that we were going on with this work, I think we scarcely met with the amount of aid and co-operation from the gentlemen opposite to which we were entitled. I do not wish to say anything that would seem harsh to any gentleman on the other side of the House, but I really do not think the attitude which the Opposition assumed towards this Govern- ment, when we were only carrying out the pledges which they themselves had given over their signatures as Ministers, by their votes in Parliament, and by their declara- tions of policy in this House, in the country, and to the Imperial Government, was justifiable. As we were only carrying out what they proposed, we had a right to expect to bo met in a manner different to that in which we were met by them ; but the attitude hon. gentlemen assumed onh afforded an opportunity of showing that whatever change of sentiment may have taken place in the mind of the leader of the Opposition, no such change had taken place in the mind of Parliament in relation to the subject. The leader of the Opposition moved — and in making this motion he submitted a resolution directly in antagonism to the policy of the Government which he supported and to his own recorded utterances on the floor of this House — that we should break faith with British Columbia and with Lord Carnarvon, and that we should give, I was going to sa}^ the lie, to Lord Dufferin, who stated on his honor as a man that every particle of the terms of agreement with Iji'itish Columbia were in a state of literal fulfilment. The result of the moving of this resolution was to place on the record.s of Parliament a vote of 131 to 49 that good faith should be kept, and that v^e were bound not only to keep good faith with British Columbia, but that we owed it to Canada to take up this work and prosecute it in such a way as we believed was absolutely necessary in order to bring it within such limits as would enable us to revert to th ^ original policy of building .lie road by means of a company !\ided by land and money. And. had we not placed that section under contitict in British Columbia, had we not viu'oroiisly prosecuted the 185 miles wanted to complete the line i 26 between Lake Superior and Ived Eiver, we would not have been able to stand here to-day laying before the House the best proposal for the construction of the road that has ever been made to Parliament. Well, Sir, I will give, in conclu- sion, the utterances of the hon. the leader of the late G-overnment at the last Session of Parliament. He said : " I shall not for a monif li deny tliat we intended to carry out the terms of the arrangement with Lord Carnarvon, and nothing but the want of means would have i^revented us from accomplishing that object, an object which could not but be desirable to any one who wished to see our trade extended." Not merely that the obligation under the Carnarvon terms, but that the interests of the country rendered it desirable that the policy should be carried out. " No one who looked to the desirable extension of our business across the coMtiufnt could avoid seeing that if such an extension could possibly be obtained without too great sacrifice it would in itself be desirable." Sir John A. Macdonald. Who said that ? Sir Charles Tupper. The leader of the late Government at the last Session of Parliament. The hon. gentleman further said : " Our pi^licy was this : We believed that the Pacific Railway was imdertalccu as a great national highway from one end of the Dominion to the otli^'i', and that whatever termination we make of it, near Lake NipissiiiL', it must be placed in connection with some other lines, and we provided for paying a subsidy to some connecting lines east of Georgian Bay. (lur object was to have, as speedily as possible, a railway from_ the wacersol'the Georgian Bay, to have a connection with the Quebec lines, throu;'h the Canada Central, as a connecting medium." » * ♦ «» « « * * * "Our p^an would form a through line to the Ottawa Valley, notably and notoriousiy the shortest line to tlie east from our western territories. Hon. gentlenicii opposite have given up all the advantages that the Province of Qucb(>c and tlie Provinces east of that would have derived from our plan, and tlie President of the Council is not apparently at all disposeil to avoid cheeriugliim^elf because he adopted this course; he deliberately injured his ow;i Piovince, and now laughs at the injury ho has done." The hail, gentleman will be very glad to find that the Prosideiit of the Council, who, on this side as well as on that side of the House, invariably pressed in the strongest terras the prosecution of the eastern link with the Canadian Pacific Railway, is able now to cheer himself, not upon the attiiinmout of the line to the Georgian Bay, but on the immediute steady prosecution of a line connectlSig the great Province of Quebec and all the Eastern Provinces by the 27 shortest and most available route with the fertile territories of the North- West. The hon leader of the Opposition has indulged, as is his wont, in a good many sneers on this subject. He taunted our Quebec friends on this side of the House with having been left out in the cold, and with having been sacrificed. I trust, Sir, that now that these gentlemen are in a position to receive these taunts with a a good deal of equanimity, they will find that hon. gentle- man ready to consider what the interests of this great eastern section of the cou .xtry are, as he was w^hen he supposed that they had not obtained the justice which he thought they were entitled to receive at our hands. The hon. leader of the late Government said : " I was under tho impression I had done for Quebec every thin i- I fef I, I 87 Opposition is, unbolioving- and wanting in confidiMice, as he has indn(;ed tho loador of the late Governmont to become in the value of these lands, I am almost sure that, with the help of the Globe, I could work them up to the belief that these lands are worth a dollar a^i a('re. 1 despair of getting them further than that, even with that potent assistance, but I hope to brin^' them up to the belief that these lands are worth a dollar an acre. For purposes of comparison, then, we will call it worth a dollar an acre. This Parlia- ment voted in land and mon(»y a subsidy of $84,700,000, and placed it at the? disposal of the Government for the construc- tion of the Canadian Pacific Railway. How has that pro- position been treated ? Why, Sir, as I have stated, a com- pany was formed, a contract was made with them under the terms of which tiiey were clothed with all the powers and means that we could give them, to command the money markets of the world, and they could not do it. Mr. Anqlin. I thought it was he who spoiled it. Sir Charles Tuppkr. The hon. leader of the late Govern- ment has ever since poured unbounded ridicule on that proposition ; he has always considered those terms inadequate to secure the construction of the great Pacitic Hail way. The hon. gentleman, on the platform, in my presence, declared — and he could not have poured greater ridicule on the project than by the expression he used — that we 'might as well offer ten dollars as thirty millions of dollars and fifty million acres of land to secure the Canadian Pacific Railway. From that day to this— not quite to this, but until a few months ago — until the contract was made, every person in this country had been led to believe (our own friends as well as our opponents) that the hon. gentle- man was right ; that those terms were inadequate, and the experience of our Government and the subsequent five years of the late Administration had gone to prove that they were inadequate ; and the hon. gentleman will find that last year, when I was in extremis, when I was met by hon. gentlemen opposite, raising a hue and cry that we were going to ruin this country by the construction of the Cana- dian Pacific Railway, and the necessity was great to reduce as low as possible the construction of this work, the lowest estimate that I could submit to this House, for w^hat I admit is a degraded road, was $80,000,000. I now come to the 88 proposition of 18t4. And what does that show ? The hon. gentleman got Parliament to vote for the construction of 2,627 miles of the through lines from Lake Nipissing to - Burrard Inlet, for 85 miles of the Pembina branch, and for 85 miles of the Georgian Bay branch — 2,79Y miles — all of which are contained in the Act, and all declared to be treated on the same terms, and entitled to the same amount as if they were on the main line Mr. Mackenzie. I was not aware that that Act declared Burrard Inlet to be the terminus. Sir Charles Tupper. The hon. gentleman ought scarcely to interrupt me with a captious objection of that kind, which has nothing to do with the question. He knows that, as a matter of comparison, I must take a definite route, and he knows also that he was dealing with the Burrard Inlet route, because he was dealing with the route that he should decide was the best, and he did decide that the Burrard Inlet was the best. The hon. gentleman should not, therefore, interrupt me with such a frivolous objection which has nothing to do with the subject, but which is calculated to draw me aside from the argument. Well, what did it amount to? It amounted to this, that with the shortest route Mr. Mackenzie. No. Sir Charles Tupper. The shortest route, because if the hon. gentleman takes any other practicable route he will increase the distance. Mr. Mackenzie. No. Sir Charles Tupper. Yes. Mr. Mackenzie. Not the shortest. There are shorter routes. Sir Charles Tupper. I come to the Act — the law put on the Statute-book by the hon. gentleman himself— the authority tha,t this Parliament gave him to construct the Canadian Pacific Railway and what does it enact ? It says that on this 2,797 miles, including the main line and branches, he got voted, not by estimate, but by authority of a statute, to use ^10,000,000 for that distance, which is 2 797 miles. And, Sir. he fot authority to ""ive 20 000 acres of land for every mile of that distance, which amounted to ^6,940,100 acres. ^ r^ 89 %4 Mr. Blake. Not on every mile. Sir Chakles Tupper. On every mile, as the hon. gentle- man will see by the Act of 18t4. Mr. Blake. I thought the contract for the Georgian Bay branch was not based on a land subsidy at all. Sir Charles Tupper. This was Mr. Foster's contract, which gave 20,000 acres of land, and if the land could not be got along the line, it was to be taken anywhere else in the Dominion. Mr. Mackenzie. We do not own the land there at all. Sir Charles Tupper. It had to be got in the North- West. Mr. Mackenzie. That is perfectly well known. Sir Charles Tupper. The contract makes it a doubtful question whether it could be obtained from the Province of Ontario or not. At that time the hon. gentleman had some hopes of acting on the sense of justice of the Province of Ontario, and he might have obtained some land from them. Mr. Mackenzie. Formal application was made. Sir Charles Tupper. Yes ; but not successfully ; that Act also provides for four per cent, on such additional amount as would be required by the contractors in order to build the road. The hon. gentleman published his advertise- ment for six months without getting any response. Now, how shall we arrive at the amount that was to be paid, in comparison with the other contract ? There is a very satis- factory mode. The hon gentleman let the contract for 85 miles, and although I am i)repared to admit that that portion of the road is more difficult of construction than a great deal of the Pacific Railway, still the hon. gentleman will not deny that it is a very fair average. Mr. Mackenzie. I do. Sir Charles Tupper. Then, Sir, 1 have lost confidence in the hon. gentleman altogether. Has the hon. gentleman forgotten that when the Foster contract was cancelled, and we stated that he was not as wise in letting this contract as he might have been, he scouted the idea, and said there was no diiiiculty -svhatcvcr, and that the contract was not abandoned for any such reason as was alleged. ^ § 40 I could only state what the engineers Mr. Mackenzie. stated. Sir Charles Tupper. I have no doubt, when the hon. gentleman made that statement, he believed it to be the truth. If the hon. gentleman will look at the line north of Lake Superior and examine the character of a considerable portion of it, and then examine the character of the line from the canyons of the Fraser River or from the foot of the Rocky Mountains and thence to Kamloops, Emory's Bar and on to Burrard Inlet, I think he will agree that the Georgian Bay Branch is a fair average of the w^hole line. When the hon. gentleman advertised he obtained a tender from Mr. Munson, of Boston, at four per cent, on $t,600, while the Foster tender w^as four per cent, on $12,500, and the other tenders were vastly beyond that sum. Mr. Foster became possessed of the lowest tender— that is, Mr Munson's ; a contract was made with him, and that contract I have in my hand. Yoa will find that it provides for paying Mr. Foster '^10,000 in cash per mile, 20,000 acres of land per mile, and four per cent, for 25 years on $7,500. But I must remind the House that after Mr. l^'oster had gone to New^ York aaid exhausted every effort he could make in England, he found he could not get a capitalist in the world to invest a dollar in his contract ; so that when I take that contract as a fair average of the cost to be added to the amount for w^hich the hon. gentleman had authority from Parliament to use, I think I have taken an average which every business man will admit is a moderate one. The interest, at four per cent , on $7,500 is $300 a year per mile, and adding that to the amount I have stated, and on the 2,977 miles we have $20,977,500. Mr. Br AKE. \Yhy do you not capitalize that sum ? Sir Charles Tupper. I do not capitalize at all, but it would have to be paid in money as the other is paid. Mr. Blake. Hear, hear. Sir Charles Tupper. Does the hon. gentleman mean to say that when we incur an obligation under a contract we have not the money to pay ? Mr. Blake. The obligation to pay year by year for 25 years, does not mean the gross sum of those payments added together, as everybody knows. T 41 Sir Charles Tupper. No, Mr. Speaker, but it means a very- much loss sum. Let the hon. gentleman apply that principle to the $25,000,000 we are to pay the Syndicate, and he will find that it means a very much less sum too. The hon. gentleman will find that by the terms under which Parlia- ment, in 18Y4, authorized the late Government to secure the construction of the Pacific Railway. The amount to be paid in cash was $48,947,500, which, with 55,940,100 acres of land at $1 per acre, would make $104,887,502— the lowest amount, as the hon. gentleman must admit, which could represent accurately the amount to be expended upon that sclieme. It being Six o'clock the Speaker left the Chair. AFTER RECESS. Sir Cjarles Tupper, resuming, said: Mr. Chairman, when the recess took place, I was dealing with the question of the amount that Parliament had placed at the disposal of my hon. friend, the then leader of the Government, for the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and I find. Sir, that I have made a slight mistake, which I take the earliest opportunity of correcting ; I stated the distance from Nipissing to Burrard Inlet at 2,627 miles ; I must add 40 miles to that distance in computing the amount which (the Act of 1874) Parliament placed to the disposal of the leader of the (xovernment for the construction of the railway, because, you will remember, 'he then Government located the terminus of the railway, not at the Callendar Station on Lake Nipissing, where it is now located, and where it was originally located by the former Government, but forty miles south of that point. Therefore, under that Act, the hon. gentleman would not only have been obliged to expend $104,887,500 at the lowest computation, but to provide for the construction on the same terms of 40 miles more, to bring the railway down to the terminus as located by the then Uovernment. That will add $400,000 in cash, $300,000 in money as four per cent on $7,500 per mile, for 25 years, and $800,000 in land at a dollar an acre, or $1,500,000 annually, to make the estimate strictly correct — in all $10G,3»'?,500. Now, Sir, having shown that Parlia- ment had placed at the disposal of the Government of my right hon. friend (Sir John A. Macdonald) in 1872 $b4,70O,000 for the construction of the work, and that Par- ♦, • ^ 42 ^l^Tu^*.!"^^ P^at'^ti $104,887,500 at the disposal of the leader 2i Sn n^n'T"'"'?''*, '"i 1874-to which we miist add the yi,500,000 to which T have just referred— I now come to tne present contract, which is laid on the Table of the House lor Its consideration. For that portion of the line from Fort William to Selkirk, 410 miles, the Pembina branch, 85 miles and that portion from Kamloops to Burrard Inh t, 217 miles —all of which, amounting to 712 miles, when the whole line IS completed, is to be handed over as the property of the Company— the total amount expended and to be ex- pended by the Government, including everythin"- is |28,000,000. For the construction of thf road trom Lake Nipissing to Fort William, 650 miles, and from Selkirk to Kamloops, 1,350 miles— 2,000 miles in all-the Government r^^A'l^n ^^ ^^y^ ^^ addition to the $28,000,000, $26,000,000 oi $&d,000,000, and m land— estimating the 25,000,000 acres at the same rate that I have estimated the land under the contract ot 1878 and under the Act of 1874, one dollar an acre-of $25 000,000 ; or a total amount to be expended by f i^o^J nn'^n^ n*^ constructiou of the Canadian Tacihc Kail way 1 • ?' T ' ^ ^^"^^ ^^^® warrants the statement with which I commenced my remarks, that these terms are greatly beJow any terms that have previously been obtained or sanctioned by Parliament for the construction of this great work. The matter then stands thus : under the con- i?nj«f7-nP' f t4,J^^'0«^0 ; under the contract of 1874, J10^,887,o00, with $1,500,000 added to bring the road dovNU to the point at which, under that Act, it was to be com- menced ; under the contract of 1880, now laid on the Table ol the Plouse, $78,000,000. ^^ow, Sir, let me draw the attention ol the House for a moment, in order to show that m taking the I^oster contract as the base of calculation as to What the cost under the Act of 1874 would have been, if it could have been accomplished at all, it was a reasonable estimate, an estimate, in fact, below the mark, to the words, ot the leader of the late Government with refeience to the character oi that section. The hon. gentleman sai I, as will be found m the Hansard of 1876 :-" Because he would probably refer to this matter at another time in the House he would now simply say this : that what was published in inany newspapers as to engineering difficulties encountered in this relation was entirely fallacious/ No" difliculty V Jss» f I *^m 43 i • >: had been experienced in obtaining the grade that was required in the original contract, the gradient not exceeding 26 feet x>er mile for the country eastward and 52 for the country westward. Tn only two places was there any difficulty in securing these gradients ; and these the engineers assures me can easily be overcome. The explora- tions in the immediate vicinity of French river show that the line traverses a rocky though not a hilly country." This shows that I have ground, from the opinion of the hon. gentleman, for my statement that that would be a fair estimate. I will now draw attention of the hon. gentlemen opposite to an authority with reference to the terms. This may be necessary as the position now taken by the Opposition, as may be assumed by that taken by the Globe, is that it is idle to talk about estimating the land at $1 per acre, when every one knows that it is worth $2 per acre. Well, I shall be only too glad if that can be established, but it will not do for the leader of the Opposition or the leader of the Government to meet me on that ground, and I will show you why, I draw the attention of the Committee to the statement made by the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Blake) when we were discussing the Foster contract, and I had ventured to value the land at $2 an acre. That was in 1875, and the hon. gentleman will find his remarks on page 541 of the Hansard. The hon. gentleman said, in reference to myself : " We have found him putting a value of his own upon the land subsidy. Wf have found him exaggerating other items lo be taken into account, and we have found him thus making a total which I do not think the House will agree is a correct one in that matter. As I undeistand the figures, the cost of building the Georgian Bay Branch, a distance of 85 miles, is as follows : Subsidy, $10,000 per mile, $850,000; guaiantee of four per cent, interest on $7,500 for 20 years, which, I am told, capitalized, is equivalent to $4,000 in cash per mile. That we make $;j40;i'U0, giving $l,iyO,000 as a total value of the cash to be expended by the country in the construction of the Georgian' Bay Branch. With reference to the 20,000 acres of land subsidy, the hen. member for ('umberland calculates it at $2 an acre. 1 do not believe the House will accept that calcidation. I am quite sure, if the hon. gentleman pro])Osed that a nesrotiation be entered into with the contractor for the release of that land, he would find him quite willing to get rid cf it at a much less rate than he has valued the land ab. It is an entirely absurd calculation to say that these 1,700,000 acres are worth $2 an acre to this country. Even valuing them at f 1 an acre would, in my judgment, be an excessive valuation. But even valuing them at $1 you would then have $.,890,000 as ca»h and land whicli the Georgian Bay Branch would cost." Then the leader of the late Government gave his opinion on 44 the subject. My right hon. friend said: "You are going to give 50,000,000 acres of land away." Mr. Mackenzie said : " Yes ; only I do not place their value at $5 an acre, I wish I could say" that they were worth one dollar an acre." But w^hatever the value may be, I am confident I express the views of the Committee when I say that w^hatever value maybe obtained for them over one dollar per acre, and I hope it will be greatly over that rate, will be obtained, not in their present position, but in consequence of the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. In 1879 r> hoii. gentleman said : "I do not understand why the hon. gentle^ian anticipates a large revenue from the lands to be sold, because it is absolutely indispensable, in order to induce settlers to go into the conntry, that we should turnisfc them with the lands free of charge. Does the hon. gentleman imagine that settlers will go to the North-Wcst and buy lands at $2 an acre when there are million-, of acres of land offered for nothing in the United States ?" Sir John A. Macdonald. Hear, hear. Sir Chahles Tupper. If we are able to make these lands worth $2 an acre, we will do it by the agency now proposed to construct the railway, by the expenditure asked for the purpose of ensuring its construction. The leader of the late Government also said : "We must, therefore, make up our minds if we are to settle that country, it will be done only at the expenditure of a large amount ot mon"y to aid settlers on going in and giving them land free alter they get in. That is my conviction. If the hon. gentleman's expectation should be realized of getting $2 per acre for those 100,000,000 acres, I will confess to him that I have been utterly mistaken in my ideas upon thia subject." Sir John A. Macdonald. Hear, hear. Sir Charles Tupper. So much for the value of the lands. Now, Sir, as to the cost of the work. I have estimated the lands at $ I per acre, but I will assume, for the sake of meeting the present views of hon. gentlemen opposite half w-ay, that they will be w^orth $1.50 pet acre, and we will see then how the account will stand as between hon. gentlemen and ourselves; how far my statement with which I opened this discussion will be borne out when I stated that the terms upon which we now ask this House to secure the construction and operation of the Canadian Pacific Raihvay are greatly below any terms that have ever been ofiered in this House or submitted to the ^ # 45 e f e e .t Lt is le it % consideration of the people of Canad.i. If you value the lands at ^1 per acre, the contract of 1873 founded upon the offer to secure the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway to the Allan Company will show a total of 1112,050,000, How will the account then stand ? Applying the same principle to the Act of 1 8Y4,it will show ^132,857,500 placed at the disposal of the Government of my lion, friend opposite for securing the construction of the road. Placing the lands at $1.50 an acre, how stands the contract we have laid on the Table ? It shows a total of $90,500,000. If we go the whole length the G/ohe asks, and I do not say it is unreasonable, if we assume those lands to be worth, after the construction of the road, $2 an acre, how will the account stand as between those various proposals submitted for the consideration of Parliament in former times, and readily accepted by it, and the proposal we now lay on the Table '? The first proposition, that of 1873, placed at the disposal of the Government lands and money worth $138,400,000. The amounts placed at the disposal of the late Governments in 1874, valuing the lands at $2 an acre was $160,827,500 on the 2,707 miles. The present propo- sition, valuing the lands at $2 an acre, reaches a total of only $103,000,000, or less than the amount at $1 an acre, placed at the disposal of the late Government by Parliament for the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. I think this statement ought to be tolerably satisfactory to any hon. gentleman who wishes to make a fair and inst comparison of the proposals previously submitted with the present proposal. I will give an authority on this subject, bees .;se that derisive cheer from the member for Lambton intimates that he is not satisfied ; that he is still doubtlul as to my having maintained the position with which I set out, that the terms now submitted for the ratification of Parliament are greatly below any terms ever submitted and approved of. I will now give hon. gentlemen opposite an authority as to the cost of this work, about to be undertaken, that I think they will be compelled to accept. It is the authority of their own statements, of their own opinions, and I think I will show, from the opinions of the leader of the late Government and the late Finance Minister, that the cost of this work is such as to justify any intelligent man in accepting the propositions now submitted as eminently advantageous in the interest of the country, and as not 46 beyond what the parties undertaking to perform such work are entitled to leceiye. On the 12th of May, 1871, Mr. Mackenzie said : " From that point westward it is quite clear that there is no moans of rapid commuiiicatioii except by building a I'ailway, and tiiis portion in British Cohiinbia alone would take $35,0(10,000, and from the point wliich Mr. Flpming calculates as the centre of the Rocky Moiuitaius eastward to the junction with navigation, would probably be $100,000,000 or something like that. There is an estimate from the leader of the late Government, the then Minister ol' Public Works, and submitted to Parlia- ment on the authority of his own engineers with all the judgment and experience that could be brought to bear upon it, that $100,000,000 would be required for the road from Lake Superior, at Thunder Bay, to the Pacific Ocean ; and yet ttie present proposition secures the construcytion of the entire road within ten years from the 1st July next, from Lake Nipissing to Burrard Inlet, at a cost to the country, at the estimate hon. gentlemen opposite placed on the lands, of $18,000,000. One would have supposed the member for Lambton would have stood aghast at such an estimate as $100,000,000 for the portion of the road mentioned, and would have abandoned it as beyond the resources of Canada. But standing as Prime Minister and weighted with the responsibility which rests on such a high officer, he felt he must not shrink from his duty, and he stated of the section in British Columbia, that would cost $85,000,000, " we pro- pose to proceed with it as rapidly as we are able to obtain a completion of surveys." He also proposed to expend $100,000,000) if necessary, to connect the waters of Lake Superior with the tidal waters of the Pacific. The leader of the late Grovernment also said : " We frankly recognize the failure of the attempt to give a fictitious value to lands, in order to get Euglisli capitalists to take up the railway ; but we also frankly confess the necessity of building tlie railway by direct money subsidies, or a combined system of giving both money and land." The hon. gentleman gallantly performed his duty, and did not shrink from the responsibility, arduous and responsible as was his position, of discharging the duty imposed. He said: " We propose to give a specific sum per mile, in the first place of $10,000 per mile, Oiiid, in the next place, a grant the same as that proposed by the late Governi^ent of 20,000 acres, the disposal of which I will attend to presently; and then we invite intending competitors to state the 'I 4T jf, ' s amount for which they will require the guarantee at 4 per cent., in order to give them wliat they may deem a .sufflciont sum wherewith to build the roail. Wo know that some think $10,000 per mile and 20,000 acres of land, supposing they realise, on an average, $1 an acre, will not build the road. It wouhi more than build it in some parts, but from end to end it is evident it will not build it. I do not know, and have no means of estimating the probable expenditure per mile further than that to bo derived from our own experience and that of our neighbors. The Inter- colonial Kailway will cost about $45,000 a mile, traversim,', on the whole, a very favoral)le country, and posset.sing the most ample means of access at various points on its course, and with the additional advantage of having procured tlie iron structures antl rails when there was a very great depression in the prices of iron. The Northern Pacific jfailwa}-, in the accounts published by the Company, has cost, so far as it has been carried that is to Red l?iver_$;47,0OO or $48,000 per mile in round num])ers. Well, Sir, tliat road traverses almost wholly a pi-airie region, easily accessiI)lo and v.'here materials were easily found, and is altogether quite as favorable as t'le most favorable spot of any part of our tointoiios, with this advantage, that it was much nearer lo the producei's of supplies than any portion of our line, except that on tlio immedi&te borders of the Lake. The Central Pacific I will not touch, as the cost of that road was so enormous as not to afford any guide at all, )>ecause of the extraordinary amount of jobbing connected with it. But, judging from the cost of our own railways, we have no reason to suppose it wilt be possible to construct this line from end to end at a less price than $40,000 per mile, and it may exceed that by several thousands of dollars. I'arts of it will, of course exceed that very much, though on the whole of the sections east of the Ro3ky Mountains, sometliing in the neigliborhood of that figure will cover the outlay. Well, Sir, we propose to donate $10,000 per mile to the com- panies, and a guarantee of 4 ])er cent, on a sum to be named by them in their tenders, and whatever sum they may name will be the determining point as to which of the tenders is the lowest, the grant of land bein" also absolutely in each case 20,000 acres. I have already said I consider the building of this road to be one that has to be borne by the people of this country. It is quite useless to suppose that the road can, for the present tune, or for some time to come, be regarded as a purely or even partially commercial enterprise, because I do not expect that any commercial advantage c;m, by any possibility, arise to a company constructing this road for many years to come; and, as I believe in a perfectly I'rank, honest opinion in regard to these matters, as the only mode in vvliich the arfairs ot the country can be legitimately carried on, I give free expression to mv views on thut matter." I think almost every word I have read will be, although not entirely new, looked upon as frank and fair an estimate as the hon. gentleman ever submitted to the House. "Well, Sir, we now desire the gentlemen who undertook that responsi- hility to show us how it is possible to construct a railway 2,500 miles long, with a population of four millions, passing almost its entire length through an uninhabited country, and for a still greater portion of its length through a country of very rough character." I am glad the time as come when, in response to the hon. gentleman, we are in a position to show him how that 43 giganlicwork can he accomplished, and upon terms more favorable than any the moist sanguine person in this country- ventured to look for. « I bcliove," continued tho lion, gontleman, "there can ho no question tlifit whoevor l)uil(ls tho road, and wheiiover it niaj' be built, it must be con.stru(!tiMl with money furnished by the people of this coiuitry. We know, Sir, tliat t le oIjHgations imposr witli tho building of the road will not teiminato with the conclusion of x^a construction.'" I ask the hon. gentleman not to forget, now that he is sitting on the Opposition benches, that in estimating this cost, as a Minister, he felt that he would not be doing his duty if he did not draw the attention of the House to the tact that when this road is constructed the liability resting upon the country will not be discharged, but just commencing. He went on to say : "Supposing it only takes the minimum amount estimated by Mr Sandford Fleming, $100,000,000, you have pretty good appreciation of what it wouhl cost the country in the end. When you double the debt of the country you will not be able to accomplish tho borrowing of the sum of money required to build the road, paying the attendant expenses of management, and the debt, and everything else connected with it." That hon. gentleman opposite, last Session, enforced very strongly upon our attention the fact that if we went on with this work as a Grovernment work, and stood pledged in the face of the country, and of the financial world, to an expenditure of eighty to a hundred million dollars lor the construction of the railway, we could hardly be surprised if it increased the cost of money w^e were obliged to borrow in the money markets of the world. " You will not be able, I say, to borrow the required amount of money at less than six per cent, on the amount." Not an extravagant statement, certainly, in view of the great liability that would be involved by undertaking to furnish all the money for the construction of the road. "Ifyouaddsixr.er cent, upon the minimum amount to the existing obligations of the country, you will have, in addition to our present annual burde-.s, six millions of dollars, which, added together, would make a contmuous application of twelve millions of dollars before you have a cent to apply to the ordinary business of the country." A rather startling ground for the hon. gentleman to take, but one which commended itself to all those who listened to the hon. gentleman's address. "Then we come to the consideration of what would be the oosition of the road alter it was completed, supposing we were able to' fulfill the f% 49 obligations which hon. g,intlemon opposite undortoak ; aiitl supposing we tinishcHl it in seven yearn, we have Mr. Fleming's authoiity assuming him lis an autliority. and I thmic ho is vovy inuoli witiiin the bounds —that until at least three millions of i)eoplo are drawn into that uninhabited territoiy, it is quite impossible to expect the road to pay its running expenses. Mr. Fleming estimates these at nob less than eight million dollars per annum, and they have still further to be supplemented by the proportion of money rc(iuirod each year to renew the road. It is known, moreover, to railway auliioritios, that, considering the dilliculties of dim ito, iind with the ordinary trallic, the road will require renewal, that is the renewal of sleepers and rails, every eiglit or ten years on an average. No doubt that steel rails sul)stitutod for iron, the time for their renewal would l)e considerably enlarged, but to what extent lam at present unable to sr-v." First we would pay $100,000,000 to build the road ; next $8,000,000 auuually to op^irato it, subject to the deduction of whatever traffic the road received, and, thirdly, we would have to renew the sleL»pers and rails every eight years, unless we used steel rails. This is the pleasant picture which the hon. gentleman himself drew for the consideration of the House and country. And now it appears he hesitates to secure the construction and operation of the road for ever at a cost of .S7!<,000,000. When the hon. gentleman arrived at this point I resolved to ask the question, " What do you estimate as the duration of the ordinary rails ? " The hon, gentleman replied : " From eight to ten years. That, at least, is the opinion or Mr. Walter Shan y, wlimn 1 assume to be a competent authol■it3^ Supposing, then tliat the road was completed, we would have, in addition to the burden imposed upon us by the interest of the money, to provide for the workin» of the railway, a sum at least equal to that amount, or six millions every year in order to keep it in repair." My hon. friend, the leader of the Opposition, no longer than a year ago, in the light of all the information and experience which the five years' administration of the hon. member for Lambton afforded him, was good enough to give to the House his opinion as to the cost of this road and the liability that would be incurred ; and I invite — before the hon. gentleman takes the position of refusing his assent to this contract, which, I venture to say, he cannot afford as a public man to take — his attention to his own estimate as he gave it a year ago. It will be found on page 1441 of Hansard. He said : "Again, of course, the through trafuc depeads on the road bein thi^ standard '^ Why, there are half-a-dozen leading roads in the United States to-day of which the standard is more objectionable in grades and curves than that of the Union Pacilic llaiUvay. Therefore, I think there is not much o-round for cavil in that matter. When the Union Pacific Eaihvay was built, the Government, who gave a much greater amount of aid to it than we are giving to this road, an-reed that the standard of the Baltimore and Ohio Railway should be put in the contract as the standard of the Union Pacific, and the Baltimore ond Ohio Railway, as li ', V- : K-' I % - V, 66 •"^ K ' \^ v^ % every one knows, is a road that is doing an enormous traflic and is rogarded as a iiri;t-class road. Th(3 rortlund and Ogdt'usburg Kailway and hali-a-dozon otlior American lines, have also a standard that cannot compare with the standard we have selected. I need not detain the House therefore, bv trying to show that it would have been utterly unreasonable tor the Government of Canada to exact from these gentlemen, who were agreeing to construct this road at so much less terms than were agreed in the Allan contract, a higher standard than wo have done. But we have a better guarantee than could be inserted in the contract, of the high standard of the road, and that is that these gentlemen are not constructing the road fur the Government of Canada to work, but they are constructinn- It as their own property, and when it is constructed they have to furnish the means of maintaining and operating'' the road, and every disadvantage of a poor construction would lall iipon them and not upon us. And, Sir, what would have Deen my position in demanding excessive terms in relation to the standard of the road, when they had in their hands my own statement— the statement of the Govern- ment of Canada, with all the resources of the country at oui back— that we were compelled to lower the character of the road m order to construct a cheap line of railway, and that the owest estimate we could make of the cost of such a work was $80,000,000, or an excess of the whole amount they were obtaining both in money and land, computino- the land at a dollar an acre? I think, therefore. Sir that 1 need not detain the House by dealing with the question ol the standard ot the road. Nor, Sir, will I detain the House very long upon the other point that has been raised^ and that is the mode upon which the money is beiuo^ divided. 1 have shown the cost ol the Pembina branch at the lowest rate at which we can now put it, without all those buildings necessary, and which these g3ntlemen will have to construct at their ovni cost. If hon. o-entlenwin have paid any attention to the deplorable description that the l^irst Minister gave us, a year ago, as to the difficulties they would have to surmount between Red Kiver and tlu; foot ol the Rocky Mountains, I think they will come to the conclusion that the amount is not extravagant I call the attention of the House to this fact. The Government want that road pushed through from Red River lo the foot of the 66 Hocky Mountains as fast as it can be done. I have the authority of the leading gentlemen conno(^ted with the Syndicate to state in public that they intend the road to be complete at the foot of the Rocky Mountains at the end of three years from the present time If it be thought a gigantic worlv to build 300 miles of railway by this power- ful Syndicate in a year, I may tell hon. gentlemen for their inform ati n, that within the last year a few of these gentlemen completed between 200 and 300 miles of railway themselves through a somewhat similar countrv. And, therefore, it is not an extravagant statement for them to make in saying that they intend to construct the road to the foot of the Rocky Mountains in three years, and to build 300 miles of this road during the coming season. What does that involve ? It involves the expenditure of an enormous amount of capital at the outsets. The very moment this contract is ratified by Parliament, these gentlemen have to put their hands in their pockets and not only take there- from a $1,000,000 to deposit with us as security, but they have to put their hands into another pocket the next hour and take out another million to equip the road that is in operation, and that will be in operation within the course of the year. After reading the lachrymose statements of the hon.* leader of the late Government about these lands and the difhculty of getting them sold, it is not unreasonable to suppose that, with all their energy and industry, it will take two or three 3'ears before they can make these lands to any large extent serviceable by a return of money from their sale. These gentlemen, have, • therefore, at the outset, to lay out an enormous sum of money for ecjiiipment, in providing the plant necessary to construct and run that work during the coming three years, and they have, in the next place, to wait for a considerable period before they can receive any return tor lands. At the end of the three years all that x^lant Avill, of course, be applicable to the other sections. I believe, therefore, the more it is examined the more it will be found that in the division of money no injustice has been done, and those who place confidence, not in us, but in the statement of the leader of the late Grovern- ment, have only to take his own statements which I have read to-night, and that was his estimate of $20,000 per mile tor the T)OTtion to be constructed west of Red River to perceive the advantage of the present proposed arrangement. » • t 61 There is another million they have to put their hands into their pockets to pay us, and that is for the work we have constructed west of Eed River and the material we have on hand applicable for the purposes of construction. Under the circumstances, the hon. gentlemens' minds will be relieved to know that we have made the very best division of the money. If the enterprise is to prove anything but a failure there is a groat expenditure of money to be made at the very outset in bringing people to this country. I regard this proposal to secure the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway by the agency of the Company as of most vital importance from the point of view that, instead of having to struggle with railway companies in competition for immigrants, we will have a gigantic railway company with all its ramiiications in the United States, France, G-ermany, and the British Islands, co-operating with the Government of Canada, '''ut all that will involve a present outlay of a very large sum of money by these gentlemen. The only hope they can have of having any means of sustaining the railway, if it is constructed, is by getting a population as rapidly as possible into the fertile valleys^oi the North-West, and thus furn ish the traffic which alone can support the operation of this railway. I am told that another very objectionable feature is the exemption of the lands from taxation. I have no hesitation in saying I would have been glad if that was not in the contract. If it were only to meet the strong prejudice that exists in this country on that ques- tion, I should have been glad if it were not in the contract ; but there were two things we had to consider. One was to make the best bargain we could for Canada, and the other was not to impose terms that, without being of any material advantage to the country, would be likely to lead to disaster in the money markets of the world when the prospectus w^as placed on those markets. Every one will understand that the position in respect to the taxation is not changed in the slightest degree from that in which we were construct- ing this road as a G-overnment work ; when my hon. friend was constructing it by direct Government agency, no taxa- tion could have been levied on these lands until they were utilized, until they were occupied. No province, munici- pality or corporation of any kind existing, or that could be created hereafter could impose the slio-htest tax on those lands until th(y were sold or occupied, and when they are sold or t 08 occupied now, that moment thoy are liable to taxation. I will not stop to discuss the question of the road itsell being exempt from taxation because hon. gentlemen have only to turn to the laws of the United States, and in reference to the construction of those great lines of railway anywhere, to find that the policy of the Government of the United btates has always been that those lines of railway, the road- way, the road itself, the stations, everything embraced m the term railway, was exempt from taxation One of the judges of the courts of the United States declared that as these QTeat lines of road were national works, were public ease- ments that as they v.^ere for the benefit and advancement of the whole country, they should not be subject to any taxation, State or municipal. We have, therefore only followed the practice that has prevailed in the United States and that which hon. gentlemen opposite willleel was incumbent upon us. What was our position^ We were askino- these gentlemen to come forward and take a position from which we shrank. I do not hesitate to say that great and important as the enterprise was, the Government felt it was one of enormous magnitude and trembled almost when thev reo-arded the great cost of construction and the cost ot maintenance and operation of the road when constructed. And I ask when we were shifting from our shoulders to the shoulders of a private company all the responsibility, I ask this House in candour to tell me whether they do not think that as far as we could we ought to have put these gentle- men in as tavorable a position for the construction of the road as we occupied ourselves. That is all we have done ; and as I have said before, the moment the lands are iitilized thev become liable to taxation. I have been told that the lands of the Canada Company being free from taxation it were found that they were attended with a good deal that was objectionable. Mr. Mackenzie. They were not free from taxation. Mr. Blake, They were only ordinary large landholders. Sir CiiAULES TUPPER. Oh, it was owned in large blocks. Then the case is not half as bad. Mr. Blake. No ; this is much worse, ci:~ nTTA-PTvc Tttppr'.t? T supDosed it was because thev were free from taxation. Well, we have taken care they im: ^l p 69 t ,S % shall not own them in blocks. We have met the difficulty and covered it. But, as I said before, these gentlemen must sell their lands. It is impossible to sustain the road without bringing a population into the country as rapidly as possible. It is said this is a gigantic monopoly. You not only free the lands from taxation until occupied but you create a monopoly. If we have one strong \ mi in our case, it is this, that under the terms of the Allan mtract of 1S13, 54,000,000 acres of land were locked up, if y i call it locked up, by being placed in the hands of a compan Under this contract 25,000,000 acres of land only are to be reserved. Under the Allan contract of 1873, and the terms of the Canadian Pacific Eailway Act of 18*74, those parties were entitled to have their land in large blocks of 20 miles square, and under this contract the Government have possession of every alternate mile over the whole section and along the whole line of railroad. Can there be any monopoly ? Why, under the terms of the Allan contract the Grovernment was bound, as the Grovernment of the United States was bound in relation to the Northern Pacific Railway, to abstain from sell- ing an acre under $2.50. Under this contract, however, we are free to give away every acre that remains in our possession should the public interest warrant it. No policy did the Syndicate press more strongly upon us than that of settling the land as fast as we could. They say we should be only too glad to plant a free settler upon every acre belonging to the Government. We hold, on the monopoly point, that instead of 54,000,000 acres being locked up in blocks of 20 miles on each side of the road, instead of our being bound to sell at no less than $2.50 an acre, we can open up to free settlement the 29,000,000 acres the Government retains to utilize in the interest of the country, over and above the amount given the Syndi- cate, or can sell at prices below the minimum fixed by the terms of 1874. What about the terms of a year ago ? Read the resolution Parliament passed here for the r-ppropriation of 100,000,000 acres and you will see how absolutely Parlia- ment placed them at the disposal of the Government, for use in any way possible to secure the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. Instead of having handed over to a monopoly, as it may be called, those 100,000,000 acres, we held 75,000,000 acres in our own hands to be used for promoting the interest of Canada by free settlement and by M f' 70 sales, to return to us the money required to be paid under the contract, to the Syndicate $25,000,000. As I said before, the question of freedom from taxation of lands is not new. In 1870 an Act was passed in the United States for the relief of the International Railroad Company, now consolidated under the name oi the International and Great Northern Railroad Company, which provides, similarly to what has been enacted as regards other railroad companies in various states of the Union,. that the lands of the company shall be free from taxation. The United States Grovemment has given great land grants to railways under what is called the head grant system, and in one case a company was authorized to select any part of the public lands of Texas, that magnifi- cent country that has excited the admiration of hon. gentlemen opposite, the most beautiful and fertile areas, without any hindrance or any responsibility whatever. The company received "20 sections of 640 acres each of the unappropriated lands of the State for each ^mile of railroad which has been or may hereafter be constructed pursuant to the Act of 1870. The said company, its successors and assigns to h^ve the right to locate the said lands as head rights certificates, without the necessity of alternating the sections ; the said lands and certificates to be released from all county, state, municipal and other taxes for a period o twenty-five years." The moment our lands, however, are sold they become liable to taxation. Under that United States law they remain free for twenty-five years after coming into the hands of private purchasers. There is nothing of the kind here. The moment our lands are util- ized or sold, and the Company cannot afford to keep them from settlement, which will add more to the value of the re- mainder than is possible in any other way, they fall under taxation. The location of the railway, it appears, is objected to. But, under the terms of this contract, the location is to b ^ submitted for the approval of the Governor in Council. I do not hesitate to say that this Company will be much better able to locate the road than the Government. They have a more vital, personal, direct interest in putting it through, and best know how to make it shortest, consistent with its best location. Government cannot give the matter that personal, direct attention as the body of gentlemen as familiar with such works as are the members ^.j ..wii^aic. lu liij jt-iviQiiient, mcxuiuru, ii ia uoineces- I n t sary there should be the restriction this Act provides, that is, that the Governor in Council should have the right of decision ; because, I believe, their own interest w^ill compel them to make the best possible location. But, we have pro- vided that, by maintaining a general control of the Governor in Council over the work, that not one mile of the road shall be located without their consent. I am told that great ob- jection is made tOi the power of the Company, to build branch lines. Is the House aw^are that, in the United States, all the powers given this Syndicate, which comes forward to take the place of the Government and relieve it of responsi- bility, in regard to this work, are enjoyed by everybody or every company building a railroad. All that such persons require to do, is to organize a company, under the general law, register themselves, and go and build a railroad where- ever th«y like, with such privileges in their favour. Mr. Mackenzie. Do the same thing in your North- West. Sir Charles Tupper. The hon. gentleman will see, that, as to the last objection that can be made to our policy, he has anticipated me, because I intended giving him credit for the liberal spirit with which he dealt with the branch lines — I mean by the Bill submitted, containing the policy of the late Government, upon which, of course, the Opposition will not go back. In the State of Minnesota —and everywhere else across the line — branch lines can be built by any per- sons wherever they desire. We have merely given to this Company a power, any and every person can enjoy in the United States. The hon. member for Lambton is the last source from w^hich I should have expected opposition to this policy. Mr. Mackenzie. What policy? Sir Charles Tuppee. The policy of allowing the Syndi- cate the privilege of constructing branch lines in connection with the road. Mr. Mackenzie. You prohibit everybody else. Sir Charles Tupper. There is no such prohibition. This remark is only an evidence of the difficulty, the dilemma in which hon. gentlemen opposite find tliemselves in. Because they can find no legitimate objections to this policy, they must manufacture them. There is no such provision in the Bill — not a, line giving a monopoly t( those g*^ 12 and this rarliament has power to-day and will have power next year, after they have ratified this policy, to empower any persons whatever to construct lines in any part of the North-West. What did the Bill submitted by the Minister of the Interior for the late Government provide with reo-ard to the construction of railroads in the North-West— a%ill which embodied the wisdom of the Government of which he was a member? It first provides tlfat any person may construct a railway in the North-West wherever they choose They may organize under provisions similar to those under w^hich parties in the United States may construct branch lines. It went further. We have not given these gentle- men a dollar with which to construct branches. We propose to give them the right of way for branch lines free, and shall only be too glad to do so if they run branches from one end of the country to the other. We felt it was in the interest ot the country to give them every facility possible for the strengthening of the trunk line and the openin"- of such volumes of traffic over it as are indispensable to the pro- sperity of the couiilry, and as must increase the value of our lands beyond any other influence. Not one dollar can they .-pend m the construction of branches that will not pour large sums into the treasury of Canada, by increasing the value of its lands in their neighborhood. But the Bill of the late Government did not leave the cost of their construction on the Company. The Government generously came to their aid. Everybody could go on and build branches and come with his little bill to the Government for payment What does the Act say ? " The Goyernoi-in Council may reserve every alternate section of un- granted lands to the extent of ten sections per mile, five on each side exclusive of the sections which, under the Dominion Lands Act, may have been reserved as school sections or allotted to the Hudson Bay Companv' tor the purposes of this Act." v>wuip«,ujr That was as bonus to these gentlemen for construction of this branch line. "Or, should the Governor in Council deem it expedient, instead of con- veying lands to the Company, the Company miy be paid the moneys received from the sale of lands on the line of and within six miles S 3 railway, from time to time, until the Company shall have received a s^ not exceeding ten thousand dollars per mile." «^«ivea a sum Giving a claim to every man who built a mile of it to come to the treasury of Canada, and demand 1^10,000, and jet, with this strong declaration uttered on tli^" flnnr ^f +i,« .i- T House and placed on the public records of the country, pL ^^i;*"^® ^^ challencre the soundness of the judgment ot the G-overnment of Canada to permit parties, without one dollar s aid or one acre of land to construct branch lines w 11 e- °^?®^P^^ ^P a"d development of the North-West. Well, Sir, It IS said that a great enormity has been committed by the prohibition to construct lines running in any other direction than a certain one, south-west and west by south- west. Well, Sir, I am a little surprised to hear any such objection, and I shall listen with great interest to the hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House if they have any objection of that kind to make. A year ago. Sir, a com- pany with perhaps as strong claims to consideration as it would be possible for any company to have on the Parlia- ment of Canada, came to us for permission to construct a railway. They asked for no money, they asked no aid ; they only asked for permission to construct a railway of a certain kind, why did we refuse it ? Why, Sir, we were very sorry to refuse it, but, the Government having taken the subject into careful consideration, decided that, inas- much as Canada was dealing with the construction of the great Canadian Pacific Railway, and inasmuch as the only hope of maintaining this road, and of operating it after it was built, was to retain the traffic of the Canadian North- West on the trunk line, we came to the conclusion that it was not in the interests of the country, however greatly any section might demand or need it, to construct a line which would carry traffic of the North-West out of our country and leave our trunk line, the Canadian Pacific, which had cost the country such a great sum of money, denuded of the traffic necessary to sustain it. Well, Sir, that policy was announced and deliberately adopted by the Government, and it was my duty, as the Minister of Railways, to submit it to the small Parliament upstairs, the Railway Committee. That Committee, Sir, embraces a great body If gentlemen on both sides of the House, who are prepared to give great consideration and bring their judgment to bear in relation to the questions. I think that it contains 100 members. Sir Leonard Tilley. Ninety-five. Sir Charles Tupper. The number is 95, I say that is a small parliament, and when I submitted the deliberate judgment of the Government on this point, to refuse, so far T 74 as we were able, to allow that charter to pass, the policy of the Government was adopted by the Committee without a single dissentient voice. Mr. Mackenzie. I dissented for one. Sir Charles Tupper. The hon. gentleman says he dissented, then he was greatly misunderstood. I heard no dissent, but more than that a deputation who came down from Emerson to seek assistance, told me, a short time ago, that they had an interview with the hon. gentleman, and that they could not get any more satisfaction from him than they could obtain from the Government. Mr. Mackenzie. I have no power to give assistance. Sir Charles Tupper. Then, Sir, all that I can say is, that the hon. gentleman failed in the discharge of the duty of his high position, as one of the leading members of this Parliament, if he, on an occasion when the Government policy on a great national question was submitted before the Railway Committee, retains his opinion to himself, and does not give that Committee the benefit of his judgment and experience. Mr. Mackenzie. I firmly expressed my dissent. Sir Charles Tupper. Sir, the hon. gentleman does not generally dissent in such a mild way as to prevent me from remembering it ; and all I can say is, that if he dissented he did it so gently that it had passed entirely from my recollection, and I hold that this Government, in devolving the duty of constructing the Canadian Pacific Railway on the shoulders of the Syndicate, could not reasonably say, the rights which the Governmifent of Canada maintained and publicly declared they had main- tained in the interests of Canada, and in protection of the traflac of the Canadian Pacific Railway, they shall be with- held from you, ilnd now that the po*.iibility of maintaining that traffic is placed upon your shoulders we do not care where the traffic goes. I say that the interest which we have to-day, as Canadians, in that railway in their jiossession is the same national interest, to bring every pound of the traffic of the North-West which we can bring down through the heart of Canada, and down to the sea board in our own country,— as I trust in no distant day will be the case- Well, Sir, the hon. member brought up the question of rates, i IS the other day, in the speech which he delivered to the House on the Address. I could then quite understand that the hon. gentleman was about to place our anchor to windward, and when the hon. gentleman dragged in the question of rates on railways into the discussion the other day, I quite understood that there was a deliberate design in it— to forestall the public mind in relation to this matter. Every person knows the great complaints that have been made, owing to the disproportionate rates which have been adopted on railways in the United States running through the prairies. But, Sir, what is our position with relation to the matter. "Why, Sir, we have taken power by this contract, which, under the ConsoHdated Railway Act on the Statute- book, we do not possess. So far from having yielded any- thing with relation to rates, the Governor in Council retains power to levy these rates. Not a rate can be collected, not a cent can be collected by that Company for anything on *^«iL/oad, until the Government which is responsible to this House, whoever they may be, have given their sanction to what they believe to be just, and in the interest of the country. And, Sir, having retained the power, what more Old we do ? Why, Sir, we ascertained that, according to the law, Parliament itself had not the power, after the rate was fixed, to reduce it, unless it could be shewn that the Company were getting fifteen per cent, on the capital. We, in this contract, have changed that, and have deprived the Company of the power, which, under the Consolidated Railway Act, th€y and every other railway in the country ejijoyed, and stipulated a lower rate of profit as the point at which they may be asked to lower their rates. I think, under these cir- cumstances that the hon. gentleman's long discussion on a question that was certainly not before the House was hardly called for. Mr Anglin. Is the profit to be taken upon the capital of the Company or upon the whole money ex- pended upon the construction of the road, because there is a great difference ? Sir Chaeles Tupper. The hon. gentleman will be greatly relieved to find that it is not so bad as he had hoped. It is upon the capital they have expended themselves. Mr. Blake. Under the terms of the contract, for there 76 Sir Chakles Topper. That is ,i question of law, upon which T will defer to the hon. gentleman. He has the contract before him, and whatever want of confidence I may- have in his political sentiments, I have great confidence in his leffal ability. I will not require to say anything more about that. I arn told that some jT'^n tl -men are afraid that difficulty will be caused by the clause of the contract which requires the Grovernment to hold in ccnain contingencies, which may or may not arise, twenty-five millions of dollars at four per cent, interest. Suppose we had said to the late Minister of Finance a year ago that we expected in twelve months to be in a condition in which, instead of paying hve per cent., as we are paying low, we siiould be able to sell bonds at four per cent interest without any discount or commission. Suppose we had ventured to tell the hon. gentlemen that we expected in twelve months, to be in the condition of being able to obtain all the money that Canada required for its development, and to redeem, tue bonds issued at five and six per cent, as fast as they became due at four per cent , without a farthing being paid tor commission, they would have laughed at us. But It is a tact staring them in the face, and when we entered into the contract we found that we occupied a position that ^u^ li ^*^ furnish us with all the money we wanted. Ihe able Jninance Minister, my hon. colleague, told us that he could handle that twenty-five millions of money in such a way as to be eminently advantageous to the interests of J^anada, it he is called upon to hold it, and it was only after learning that that we agreed to take it upon these terms. I think there ore I need hardly detain the House upon that subject. With reference to the telegraph I am told that there IS an objection on that point, but surely no person would have expected the Government of Canada to make a contract with a company who were bound to construct in ten years a road from ihe Red River to Kamloops, and a road from Nipissing to Thunder Bay, and operate some 3,000 miles ot road, without the power i,» erect and operate a telegraph, buch a thing would, I think, be unheard of, and when I tell the House that instead of having a monopoly the Government of Canada, at this mcment, retains the Canadian Pacific Telegraph in their own hands, and that these parties have not acquired a dollar's worth of rights in the telegraph which has been contracted for, at a %um a I' i ■ I j-m 11 % i'i littlo in excess of one million of dollars ; wh<'n T tell the Hoiis? that we retain the ownership of our own line of telegraph, it Avill sqo that unless terms are made for the transaction of general business, and for taking over our lines upon terms in the interest of Canada, we are in a position to carry out and complete our own lini^ and make it a very sharp ( mipetition indeed. Now, vSir, I am glad to say that I am able to bring my remarks to a > onclusioi, but before doing so, I will ask the House to indulge me for a moment whilst I read an extract from the Wiiuiinog corres- pondonce of the Toronto Globe of November 2otli ; "So much has been sakl and written about tlio size and fertility of tlie North-V/e.st that it is scarcely necessary to repeat any of it here. Proi'. Macoun'3 recent explorations fully demonstrate tlie fact that there are about 250,000,0(JO of acres embraced within Manitoba and the North- West Teriitories, A mere fraction of this is as yet settled, so that there are still homes in the North West lor millions of people. For two hundred miles west most of the goo. I land has been taken up, but beyond that poin L there is any quantity of the richest land, much of it not even surveyed. The quality of the soil throughout these territories is almost uniibrmly good. In many places it is sui-passed. In the Red River Valley, near Winnipeg, farms have been cropped for fifty ye{>,i's, without the aid of manure. Further west the soil is somewhat lighter, but, in the opinion of many, better adapted for general farming purposes. There is a consider- able quantity of waste land, if we take it in the aggregate, but compara- tively the percentage is not large, and nnich of what is now waste land will bi- reclaimed by drainage before the country is a generation older." Now, Sir, I draw attention to that for the purpose of showing the hon. gentlemen opposite how small a portion of tliese fertile lands in the great North- West is absorbed by the twenty-live millions of acres which under this contract we give to the Syndicate. I draw the attention of gentlemen opposite to this, because it was one of the subjects of discussion a year ago. I ventured to state rom iho best authority, for we had ^.p .ided a large amount of money for surveys, &c., and a number of able men had investigated this subject of the lands of the North-West, that 150 millions of acres of good land lay between the west of Manitoba and the llocky Mountains, between the 49th and 67th p. -allels of the north latitude, and hon. members opposite doubted it. No\\ we find that Professoi* Macoun, who is one of the mo t able explorers and one o the best cj^ualified men to form a judgment upon the matter, and who has spent the last season in going over the country, found that that great Missouri section of barren country which was supposed to extend into Canada in the North- r/cst, was in 78 a great measure valuable and fertile Innrl w« r j xi . millions ofa^es, whi^h^r^ C„^d .otHnm t ''.l^ ment ar. largely lit lor settlement and thoyarondud^H^ the contract in the lands " fairly fit for settVmen ' n„ , those cn-camstan.05 the House will see th„t tl?; i , u"' been very ,n„ch uuder-estimatel Before I co^cude'^h';'^ IS another point that I want to refer to rVit .h! . ' '•'■'' the Government, and it is the at charge in the workftTJ I hope any person will ever be able to mtstain i<^Z. th •■ -It IS a charge of not being true to the S,a??o cv Tp the Government of Canada, with the evidence of thTr,,L two years before them, were to be faithl,..« t^ti l^ J"^\ Policy thoy would deserve to be dr ^i"^' ^m " wer b^Jhi execra ion of every true-hearted Canadian I sav thi ^» about the last charge that should have been made lut I am Mr. Mackenzie. Did the contractors pay the duty ^ Sir CniR_r,ES T.TPPEB. Certainly, but they were build- Ihft itUf :aa td-i:?^^ ;a7thr«e ''' T^' performed and give them a Mofit -R^,/ '"'^ .^"^ they. every car for thf railway that'^^I'mpoHed fo7o,:T""™' we have done, conld not by anTlaw that is on theirf' T book be charged with dntv SV, tZtt^l ■ ^ fctatute- compUi tup?n ^^' Bu' st thaf S ITt^'Zt:! The contract provides only for the admission free of dn/v .f all steel rails, fish-plates and other fasSi snike. h Jlf Wire, timber and all materials for brid-S f L^ii!f'- .i^' original construction of the ra^Lav? and t^ ^'"^ "\*^« Mr. Mackenzie. For how long ? Sir Charles Tupper. So lono* as iha ef^^i -i not manufactured in this eom^"rfor\t1u^:e ^^ '•r^ |l i — I iHilliiKiMhaa '■r' 70 supplying oiir own country. The Government felt that the construction of railways was so vitally important to the development of Canada, that they made an exception of steel rails, saving that while steel rails were not manu- factured in this country they should be admitted free. Therefore, this limits it to the bolts, nuts, wire, timber and material for bridges. Well, Sir, we carefully considered that by admitting iron for bridges free of duty, we would probably have the bridges constructed of iron instead of wood. But]is there a member of this House who faila d see that if we had not made such a provision, we only had to import these articles to make them free ? I may say that under this contract the position of industries of ('anada and of the National Policy is better than before. The Government intended in this matter, as in everything else, to be true to that great Natioiuil Policy which lifted Canada out of the condition of depression in which our country was, and placed it in as prosperous a condition as any country occujned, that policy which has increased the credit of our country by changing deficits into handsome surpluses, that po''cy which has vitalized the indus-tries of Canada, set money into circulation, commercial enterprises in operation and crejjted industries from one end of Canada to the other, to an extent that the most sanguine advocate of the National Policy did not venture to anticipate. We would be faithless to the country and to the position we occupy, if we did not, in everything to which we put our hands, maintain this policy in its integrity that Canada may continue to prosper and flourish as at present. In regard to that question I may say that the Minister of Finance will be prepared to submit a measure to deal with this very point, by which the manufacture of everything that can be constructed in Canada for the purposes of the Canada Pacific Railway will be provided for in our own country. Now, Sir, I am "-lad that I shall not be compelled to trespass farther upon^the attention of the House. When I rose I expressed the pride and pleasure it gave me as a member of the Government of Canada to be able, in the year 1880, to propound to Parliament a measure for its adoption w^hich will secure in ten years the construction of the Pacific Railway, upon terms more favorable than the most enthusiastic friend of , the railway had ventured to hope this Parliament would have the opportunity of putting its seal of ratification to. 80 I have read at some length the able and eloquent statements of hon. gentlemen opposite to show that no men are more bound, as honorable and patriotic statesmen, to giye this measure their hearty support than those gentlemen them- selves. I am glad to know that if ever there ^vere a measure presented for the consideration of this House, wortliy and likely to receive its hearty adoption, it is the measure I have the honor of submitting for its consideration. I have the satisfaction of knowing that throughout this intelli