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UBOE QiSfl. 
 
 DOPY OF CORRESPONDEKCE 
 
 UETWKfc.N 
 
 The CouQcil of tli8 (Juebec Board of Trade aiKl the (Jiiehec Ship 
 Laborers' xierevolenl Society, 
 
 ANP 
 
 OiiiER ILvTA Relative TO THE Rules a.m) REOiLA'rioNS 
 
 OF THE 8<»0{ETY. 
 
 l*HlNTy.l> nV nUDKr OF T'fh ('(irSCll. 
 
 I'RISTK.K AT Till "MoKNINU CURnNU'l.t ' OFFICE 
 
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 QUEBEC LABOR QUESTION. 
 
 coisrxEisrTs, 
 
 Copy of Correspondence between the Council of the 
 Quebec Board of Trade and the Quebec Ship 
 Laborers' Benevolent Society. 
 
 Evidence given before the Royal Labor Commission at 
 Quebec, by leading Timber Exporting Merchants 
 and others, in relation to the effect produced by the 
 working of the Practical By-Laws of the Quebec 
 Ship Laborers' Benevolent Society. 
 
 Copy of thQ Practical By-Laws of the Q. S. L. B. So- 
 ciety. 
 
 Modifications of above recommended by the Council of 
 the Board of Trade. 
 
 Letters received by the Board of Trade shewing com- 
 parative cost of loading Deals at various St. Law- 
 rence Ports. 
 
 QUEBEC: 
 
 PRINTEI) AT THE "MORNTM! CHHO.MCLB " OFFICE. 
 1888. 
 
 •i 
 
 f 
 
 ^ 
 

 The Council of the Quebec Board of Trade, and its 
 predecessors in office, having, during the past three years, 
 used its best eiibrts, with the officers of the Quebec Ship 
 Laborers' Benevolent Society, to obtain such modifications 
 of the Practical By-Law^s of the said Society as they deem- 
 ed of vital interest to the trade of the Port of Quebec as 
 well as to the members of the Society, beg to present this 
 review of the proceedings, to the members of the Board of 
 Trade, in order that they may be intelligently informed on 
 the subject. 
 
 ?<#' 
 
 >>/J?a_- 
 
I 
 
 28th October, 1886. 
 To the President of the 
 
 Quebec Ship Laborers' Benevolent Society, 
 
 (Quebec. 
 Dear Sir, — 
 
 I have been instructed by the Council of the Quebec Board 
 of Trade to convey to you, as President of the Society, their 
 wishes, as passed by unanimous resolution at a recent meet- 
 ing held by that body, as follows : — 
 
 " As it has often b<'en stated by our principal exporters 
 of lumber that some of the rules and regulations of your So- 
 ciety were injurious to the interests of our port, the Council 
 of the Quebec Board of Trade would be very happy if you 
 and oth«'r officers of your Society would be prepared to 
 meet, at an early date, a number of merchants engaged m 
 the shipping business, to discuss the matters which are sup- 
 posed to affect the interests of our port." 
 
 I have the honor to be, 
 Sir, 
 Your obedient Servant, 
 
 (Signed,) F. H. Andrevj^s, 
 
 Secretary. 
 
 Office of the Quebec Board of Trade, 
 
 November 3rd, 1885. 
 
 Sir,— 
 At a meeting of the Council of the Quebec Board of Trade 
 
 held this day, 
 
 It was unanimously resolved : 
 
 " That the Secretary be instructed to call a meeting of 
 merchants and others interested in the shipping trade of 
 this port, to meet this Council at the Board Room, Exchange 
 Building, on Thursday, 5th November, at 10.30 o'clock, A.M., 
 and there to confer with a delegation of officers of the Que- 
 bec Ship Laborers' Society regarding the rules and regula- 
 tions of that Society aflecting the interests of the port." 
 
p 
 
 i 
 
 Ami I fiiii ordeu'd to communicato the foregoing to yon. 
 in ordt>r that you may mako the same known to the oificers 
 of your Society, rt'spectluUy asking your atlendaiu'c. 
 
 I have th«' honor to be, 
 Sir, 
 Your obedient Servant, 
 
 (Signed,) ¥ H. Andrews, 
 
 Secretary, 
 To P. Dinan, Esq., Prenident, 
 
 Quebec Ship liaborers' Lenevoh^nl Society. 
 
 An arrangement was agreed upon to hold the proposed 
 conference, and the Ibllowing letter forv^'arded, (the meeting 
 was held on the oth of November, 1885) — as Ibllows ; — 
 
 Minutes of Meeting of Committee named at a meeting of 
 the Quebec IJoard of Trade, Merchants, and Oflicers of the 
 Quebec Shi]) Laborers' Benevolent Society, held at the 
 Board Room, on the 5th November inst., for the purpose of 
 considering the Rules and Regulations of the above Society, 
 as afi'ecting the interests of the Port of Quebec, 
 
 The meeting of the Committee was duly convened to be 
 held (as ordered at the meeting of the 8rd) at the Board 
 Room, on Monday, the 5th November, at which the follow- 
 ing gentlemen were present ; — 
 
 Representatives of the Board of Trade : 
 
 Josej)h Shehyn, President ; 
 R. R. Dobell.' ) 
 
 W. Rae, 
 R. H Smith, 
 E H. Duval, 
 J Burstall, 
 Hans JIagens, 
 W. M. McPherson, 
 
 , Councillors. 
 I Members, 
 
 Merchants represented by F. Carbray. 
 
Tlu' Qut'bec- Ship Laboreris B»Micvolont Society delegiiles 
 were : P. Diiiaii, F^'. X Dube, A. Raymond, Joseph Laberge, 
 P. p'it'/gt'iald. M. Ciienior and Ed. O'Connor, 
 
 The nieetinpf was called to order by the Chairman, .loseph 
 Shohyn, Presidenl ol'the Board olTrade, wlio explained the 
 objt'ot. lor whieh ihey were assembled. 
 
 The question having been raised as to the necessity ol" 
 havinjjf the Press to report the proceediiii^s ol'the Committee, 
 it was decided thai, as the disrussioa thai would likely take 
 place vvould l1^)l>ably be conducted in a very desultory 
 manner, so as to give the fullest freedom in the interchange 
 of ideas between the Society and Ibard of Trade and Mer- 
 chants, that it would be better to furnish the press with a 
 full account of the actual conclusions arrived at by the joint 
 committee 
 
 After a lengthened niterchange of ideas and explanation.^, 
 carried on in the most «ourteous and friendly manner, 
 between the parties representing the various interests, 
 
 The representalives of the Board of Trade and Merchants 
 were unanimously of oi)inion, in order to give Quebec an 
 opportunitv of competing with Montreal for the Deal trade 
 and induce ships to come to Quebec to load, the following 
 modilications or additions to the rules and regulations of 
 the Society should be made, and the same be handed to the 
 President and delegates of the Society, with a request that 
 they will lay them bt'fore their body as the exact expression 
 of the views held as to what is required to bring back and 
 encourage the trade in the Port of Quebec, and that the 
 propositions now submitted being, as it is sincerely believed, 
 in the interest of all concerned, should have their concurrence 
 and cordial support — namely : — 
 
 1, That the working day until the 1st October should be 
 ten hours. In Montreal it is ten hours during the whole 
 season, and wages are only $2.00 to $2.o0 per day. , ,. 
 
 2. That work should be allowed on Holidays at single 
 
H 
 
 i 
 
 h 
 
 wages, when men are themselves willing. That I'or steam* 
 
 ers, ditTerent rules shoiild be adopted, as their work does 
 
 not correspond with sailing vessels, the tide having to bo 
 studied. 
 
 li. That wages should be 30 cents per hour with 45 cents 
 
 for overtime, say time and one-half. That men working at 
 
 steamers should have, without fail, a full hour for breakfast, 
 
 and the same for dinner and supper, and time to be arranged 
 
 l)y the men themselves to suit their own convenience. 
 
 4, That steamers should be allowed to use their steam 
 winches for hoisting timber or other cargo from alongside 
 and lowering into hold, but not to use steam for stowing 
 or moving timber in the hold 
 
 5. That in loading mixed cargoes the rule insisting that 
 the men employed in taking in the timber be allowed 
 to continue md finish the ship or cleared, so as to permit 
 them to be paid off after all is in, and only the usual and 
 necessary number be kept on to take in the lumber or deals ; 
 or, if only a small quantity of timber has to be loaded in 
 the ship, the stevedore or captain be allowed to take it in 
 with the men who may be engaged to take in the deals or 
 lumber. 
 
 H. That the Ship Laborers' Society do enact a bye-law 
 that whenever a captain employs the stevedore at a stated 
 sum for his services instead of by the thousand feet, tht- 
 captain shall be at liberty to employ as many men as is 
 deemed advantageous for the proper stowage, »*^ i>ot less 
 than two men for every hundred tons register. 
 
 In conclusion, the merchants present expressed their 
 willingness to use their best endeavors wnth their transat- 
 lantic friends to induce them to discontinue the practice of 
 giving a lump sum for loading their vessels, and on the 
 other hand it was understood that the officers of the Quebec 
 Ship Laborers' Society would in return do their best at the 
 next Greneral Meeting of the Society to have the grievances, 
 
 li 
 
 <^ 
 
 *" 
 
aH put forth by the merchants and others, fully considered, 
 and to have tho raodiiications, as >iu<^gf'sU'd in the above 
 rej)ort, viewed favorably. 
 The meeting then adjoiirned. 
 
 (Signed,) F H. Andrews, 
 
 Secretarv. 
 
 Office of the Quebec Board of Trade, 
 
 Quebec, 12th November, IH80. 
 
 P. Dinan, Esq., President of tht^ 
 
 Quebec Ship Laborers' Benevol »nt Society. 
 
 Dear Sir, — 
 
 I am instructed to furnish you herewith a copv of the 
 proceedings of a meeting of the Committee, held • '■ the oth 
 instant, embracing the resolutions arrived at at tl e meeting, 
 "unanimously agreed to by the members < the I>oard oi 
 Trade, and TPH:chants present ; and would thank ou with 
 your brother otficers to present the same in dr. fr>rm at the 
 first General Meeting of your Society. 
 
 I have the honor to be. 
 Sir, 
 Your obedient Servant, 
 (Signed,) F. H. Andrews. 
 
 Secretary Quebec Board Trade. 
 
 Office of the Quebec Board of Trade, 
 Quebec, March 4th, 1886. 
 
 Antoine Raymond, Esq., Secretary 
 
 Quebec Ship Laborers' Benevolent Society, 
 
 Quebec. 
 Sir,— 
 
 Enclosed please find copy of resolutions and proceedings 
 
 of meeting of 5th November last, as promised. 
 
 Yours truly, 
 
 (Signed,) F. H, Andkp^ws, 
 
 Secrtj'STf. 
 
 1 
 
 ^' 
 

 • ' ■ ' , Office of the Quebec Board'of Trade, * 
 
 Quebec, March 23rd, 1887. 
 
 P. Dinan, Esq., President, 
 Quebec Ship Laborers' Benevolent Society, 
 
 Quebec. 
 
 Sir,— 
 
 In view of the approaching Annual Meeting of the Que- 
 bec Board of Trade, to take place on the 4th April next, the 
 Council of this body has instructed me U. enquire of you 
 what decision was arrived at by the General Meeting of 
 your Society, held 1st May last, regarding the propositions 
 made by the Committee of the Board of Trade and merch- 
 ants, to your officers at the joint-meeting, held at the Board 
 Room on the 5th November, 1885, a copy of which was 
 duly forwarded you for the consideration of your Society. 
 
 Yours truly, 
 
 (Signed,) F. H. Andrews, 
 
 Secretary. 
 
 No reply was received to the above letter. 
 
 I 
 
 Office of the Quebec Board of Trade, 
 
 Quebec, August 12th, 1887. 
 
 Sir,— 
 
 I have been instructed by the Council of the Quebec 
 Board of Trade to ask whether you would, in conjunction 
 with the other officers of your Society, be disposed to meet 
 the Council at an early date, in order to afford them an op- 
 portunity of discussing the advis-.bility of repealing certain 
 existing rules and regulations, which, in their opinion, are 
 
 ^t 
 
injurious alike to the interests oi* your body and to the trade 
 of the Port of Quebec. 
 
 I have the honor tu be 
 Sir, 
 Your obedient ^Servant, 
 
 (Signed,) |< H. Andrews, 
 
 To R Leahey, Esq., President, ' ' ^ '^^^ 
 
 Quebec Ship Laborers' Benevolent Society. 
 
 Quebec. 
 
 .,. XT A„ 1 .. Qu(^bfc, August 25th, 18S7. 
 
 1^ H. Andrews, Esq., 
 
 Secy., (Council Q. B. T. 
 Dear Sir, — 
 
 I beg to acknowledge receipt of yours of 12th instant. 
 At a meeting of the Executive of Q." S. L. B. S., held last 
 evening, it was decided that instead of sendino' delegates 
 from our body to meet yours as heretofore, thatyoa name 
 the by-laws you want modified, and to what extent, .Vc. ; 
 and on receipt of same I will place it before the various 
 Sections of this Society, and will in due course notify you 
 of the result of their deliberation. 
 
 Yours truly, 
 
 (Signed,) R, H. Lkahev, 
 
 President Q. S L. B, S. 
 
 SlR,- 
 
 Office of the Quebec Board of Trade, 
 
 lath ()cto]>er, 18S7. 
 
 1 am instructed by the Council of the Quebec Board of 
 Trade to mform you that a special committee of members 
 of the Board has been named to form i Uelegation to meet 
 
 ^ 
 
 4 
 
10 
 
 the rres.deril and officers ol Ihe Quehoc- Shr,, Laborers' Be- 
 nevolent Society, lor the purpose of oonsiderin. the rules 
 and reguktion« of thai Society, with . Mew of proposincr 
 ortaui chano-es, which n. , he opinion of the Hoard, woulS 
 ho m the interest of i he port of Quebec. 
 
 I beg to ask you to name a day when this special confer- 
 ence could be held as earlv as eonvenient to your ExecuHv e 
 r am re<iuested to add that the Council expects a reply to 
 this letter on or before the 2oth iiist. 
 
 I have the honor to be, 
 Sir, 
 Your obedient Servant, 
 (Signed,) F. 11. Andrews, 
 It. Leahey, Esq., Pr,.sident, Secretary. 
 
 Quebec Ship Laborers' Benevolent Society, 
 
 Quebec, 
 No reply was received to this letter. 
 
 (Correct copy ) 
 
 Office of the Quebec Board of Trad(\ 
 
 Quebec, 29th February, ]888. 
 
 F. H. Andrews, 
 Secretary 
 
 For the iniormation of the Members of the Board of Trade 
 and Merchants who may be in unison with the Board re- 
 .yarding the proposed changes, a copy of the Practical 
 iiy-Laws governing the Societv is horebv given 
 
11 
 
 Practical By-Laws of the Quebec Ship Laborers^ Benpvuleiit 
 
 Art. XXXIX.— The following is the tarJH' rate of wages 
 dpmaiided by this Associati )U, viz : — 
 
 Holders and Swingers .|4 p,.^ day. 
 
 Winchers and Watchmen. .5 
 
 ►Stagers 2 " 
 
 Any member of this Association who sh;),ll Avork on board 
 ship for less than the established wages or more than the 
 established hours for said wages, or g'ving any of his lime 
 gratis such as putting up gear, on being found guilty, shall 
 be lined for the first offence, $o.OO, second otfence $10.00, 
 and for the 3rd offence he shall be dealt with as the Asso- 
 ciation may determine. 
 
 Art. XL. — The necessary complem(>nt of men to ibrai a 
 gang will be the following :~ 
 
 1st. Vessels working eight winches, shall employ no less 
 than 24 winchers, 9 holders, 8 swmgers and 2 stagers. 
 
 2nd. Vessels six hundred tons and over known as double 
 ported, that is having a port on the larboard and starl)oard 
 sides in one end of the lower hold or similar in the between 
 decks, said ports if placed in the bow or stern shall em])io\ 
 no less than 18 winchers. 7 holders, 2 swingers and 2 stager.s 
 
 3rd. Double ported vessels under six hundred tons, shall 
 em])loy no than 12 winchers, 5 hold.>is, 2 swingers, and 2 
 stagers. 
 
 4th. Any vessel having a port m the larboard and 'star- 
 board sides of her between decks in one end and one port 
 in the lower hold or vice versa, said ports, if placed as de- 
 scribed m the bow or stern, shall employ no less than the 
 gang required for double ported vessels under 600 tons. 
 
 
^ 
 
 
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 X 
 
 12 
 
 oth. Single i)oi'tod vessels shall employ no less than I) 
 winchers, 5 holders, I swinger and 1 stager 
 
 6th. Any vessel using more than two Avin(;hes belov^' lor 
 the purpose ol heaving timber lore and aft shall employ no 
 less than a six winch gang. 
 
 7th. There shall be no less than :> int-n at a winch while 
 working. 
 
 8th. Vessels of six hundred tons ((500) and above, having 
 no bow or stern port holes, taking a part or a whole cargo 
 of timber, shall employ the same gang as double ported 
 vessels 600 tons and over. 
 
 Under six hundred (6(»0) tons shall employ the same gang 
 as double ported vessels under six hundred tons. 
 
 ►Steamships loading or discharging general cargo shall 
 employ no less than IG men in each compartment. The 
 stevedore having the privilege to discharge the men at the 
 finishing of the said compartment. 
 
 9th. All vessels of 600 tons and above taking a cargo of 
 deals, boards, ^c, shall employ twenty (20) men at the 
 loading of said vessel, under 600 tons 16 men. 
 
 Art. XLI. — Eight hours will constitute a day's work, 
 commencing at seven in the morning, one hour to breakfast, 
 the same to dinner, and leave oil' at live in the evening 
 
 Art. XLII. — No member of this Society will work on 
 board any vessel where a <ionkey engine is used in loading 
 or discharging timber, deals, boards, &c., except sj^ool-wood. 
 
 Art, XLIII. — Any member ot this Society who works 
 with a foreman who is not a member, will be hned one 
 days pay for each day he shall have worked, 
 
 Art. XLIV. — Any member of this Society who is dis- 
 charged without a fault, is obliged to inform the other men 
 who are working in. the same ship ; and if the) do not 
 knock off until such time as such man is allowed to resume 
 hi8 work, they will be fined o <e day's pay for each day 
 they "have worked > 
 

 
 10 
 
 . 
 
 • Art. XLV. — No member oi this Soi.i^^ty is to work with 
 an outsider under a line of one duy'y pay tor each day he 
 has worked. 
 
 AjiT. XL VI. — All members oJ' this Society working oA^t-r- 
 time, that is before working hours in the morning and after 
 working hours in the evening, shall claim at the rate of 
 time and a-half ; and double time for Sundays and holidays, 
 under a hue of one day's pay for each day they have worked. 
 
 AiiT. X LYl I. — Any member ol' this Society working with 
 an outside stevedore and called on by ;> foreman or stevedore 
 belonging to this Association, and refuses to go, shall be 
 lined one day's pay for each day he has worked. 
 
 Art. XLVIII. — All membeis of this Society shall receive 
 their wages on each Saturday, on board the ship ; in the 
 event of a vessel finishing on any other day during the 
 week, they shall be paid on board also, under the penalty 
 of one day 's pay for each olfence. Steamships to name a 
 pay day for each week. 
 
 Art. XLIX. — No members of this Society will w^ork in 
 any vessels where the sailors are employed in the capacity 
 of laborers at the loading or taking in broken stowage. 
 
 Art. L.— Any member of this Society who may be em- 
 ployed by any stevedore, or captain, to discharge a vessel, 
 such member will be entitled to work at the loading of same 
 vessel , and it shall be the duty of all members to protect 
 each other in this case, under a penalty of one day's pay for 
 each day he has worked The same rule shall apply to 
 watchmen. 
 
 Art. LI. — All vessels loading a cargo or taking a i)ortion 
 of cargo of deals, staves, boards or any kind of lumber, 
 must employ four men to stow said cargo, at the rate of four 
 dollars per day ; and it shall be distiui'tly understood that 
 the lour jnen stowing are not to carry, under a penalty of 
 one day's pay for each day they have worked. 
 
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 I* 
 
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 14 
 
 Art. LII. — All vessels loading mixed cargoes of timber and 
 deals that the full rate oi" %vages be paid to all hands until 
 such time as the last stick of timber is stowed. The steve- 
 dore to have the privilege of selecting- four men to stow 
 deals, thf balan<:e to do whatever necessary work is required. 
 In case of vessels loading part timber, no matter what time 
 the last piece is taken in, the holders and swingers must be 
 paid the lull rale ».f wages for that day. 
 
 Art LI II — No member of this Society can take a sailor's 
 place unless employed by the captain or stevedore of the 
 vessel. 
 
 Art. LIV. — No member oi" this Society will furnish labor 
 to the loading of any vessel when the said vessel has been 
 discharged by non-members. 
 
 Art. LV. — If any master undtvvtakes to load his vessel 
 with his crew, a record of such shall be taken and he shall 
 be deprived of labor hereafter by the Association. 
 
 Art. LVl. — Any in mber employed hi moving a vessel 
 is duly entitled to one day s pay in all cases wherein men 
 working on board ships and are engaged to move such 
 vessel, they must be paid $1) for the tide's work, and if they 
 resume their work they must be paid at their usual rate of 
 wages, and no member shall work on any vessel when the 
 master has employed outsiders (non- members) or crews of 
 other ships to perform tide's work excex)t for taking a ship 
 in or out of dock or gridiron. 
 
 Art LV^Il. — Any member being late for work, the steve- 
 dore can wait two hours for him, but no longer ; and if he 
 desires can hire a member in his place. 
 
 Art LVIIT. — No member of this Society shall work w^ith 
 sailors who are not shipped before a duly authorized ship- 
 ping-master at the port from which she sailed for the har- 
 bor of Quebec, 
 
15 
 
 Art. LIX.— Any member workinu: with a stevedore who 
 has been refused labor from the Society, will be fined the 
 sum of $10.00 for each day he has worked. 
 
 Art. LX. — No man can take a boy's place on the stage to 
 hook on ; and in all cases of mixed cargoes, the boys on 
 the stage to be kept until the final completion of the vessel, 
 at stager's rate of wages. 
 
 Stagers are not amenable to be fined lor the violation of 
 the by-laws by the men on board ship.s. 
 
 Art. LXI. — No member of this Society shall work in any 
 vessel where, there are two stevedores giving orders, under 
 the penalty of a day's pay for each day he has worked 
 
 Art. LXIl. — A vessel working shorthanded or otherwise 
 contrary to the rules, any member or members who hrst 
 claim the place are in all casew entitled to it. But such 
 member or members shall not leave the vessel until the fin- 
 al completion of the work, under a penalty of one day's pay 
 for each day he has been absent. 
 
 Art. LXIII. — If a master of a vessel keeps members wait- 
 ing an unreasonable time, say half-past five o'clock on Sat- 
 urday evening, or half-hour after the final completion of the 
 job, they shall demand Society wages for every hour until 
 paid. Also masters of vessels loading in the stream shall 
 have to provide a boat or other convenience for the laborers 
 employed on board in bringing them to and from the said 
 vessel. 
 
 Art. LXIV. — Any members working at the loading or 
 discharging of vessels and leaving, such members must be 
 replaced by other members, under a penalty of one day's 
 pay for each member working on board. 
 
 Art. LXV. — All stevedores must, dc^mand the members 
 of their gang for their tickets of membership ; and if they 
 neglect to do so or work shorthanded, or violate any of the 
 
 
 t 
 
 ■i 
 
 i 
 
 
I 
 
 16 
 
 by-laws, they will be fined the sum total that each man has 
 been fined that is working on board ship. 
 
 Art. LXVI. — That iu all cases wherein a suspicion may 
 be entertained that the rate of wages will not bo, paid to 
 laborers, the President and officer.s have authority from this 
 Society fo send such vessel a necessary gang ot men to load 
 her to prevent dishonesty of action, Captain agreeing there- 
 to, otherw^ibe labor be refused such vessel. 
 
 Art. LXVII. — That in all vessels wherein members of this 
 Society are employed in discharging or loading, that they 
 be equally divided as to nationality ; and where an odd 
 number of men are employed the stevedore to be entitled 
 to the piivilege of jilacing those men, or selecting the odd 
 man from either nationality he pleases. If there are more 
 of one nationality than the other, the stevedore shall have 
 the privilege of discharging any member except the one 
 who has claimed the work. This rule shall also apply to 
 tide's work, putting up gear, and every place that Society 
 labor is employed. 
 
 Art. LXVIII. — No member of this Society shall work 
 on board any vessel ^^■hcrein a single rope is used to top up 
 timber or sleepers. 
 
 
 f 
 
 k 
 
 The foregoing Practical By-LaWs appear as printed 
 in the Society's Eules and By-Laws in 1885 — and it is un- 
 derstood that since that date Article 50 has been repealed, 
 and two new Articles enacted, which are in efiect : — 
 
 That 9 laborers be employed in the hold in discharg- 
 ing coal — and that the sailors may attend to the lines on 
 deck. 
 
 and 
 
 That in large ships there be an extra winch man on 
 the after winches. 
 
■ 
 
 17 
 
 EVIDENCE 
 
 Given by the Members of the Board of Trade before tbe 
 
 Labor Oommissioa, 
 
 7th March, 1H88— By Mr. William Rak. M.-rchaiit aiul 
 )0wuer, — I wi.sh to .stale tiist, Mr. Cliairiuaii, ihni I 
 consider the int(>re«t of the laborer and my own idcutical, 
 and, const'(juently, m hat benelit.s the hiborer b<'nelit.s raiv 
 If our Imsiuess iiicn'ases, my income inorea'^os, I am not 
 l)aid by salary, and, owing to th(^ diversion of trade to 
 Montreal my income has dindnished within the last lew 
 years During that time our tonnage to the St. Lawrence 
 has increased v Ty considerably, ;ind while it has thus in- 
 creased, our Qu(;b»H"" business has diminished. 
 
 Practically speaking, before 1883 we took no deals in 
 Montreal. In 1 888, one-sixth of the quantity of dculs which 
 we carried were shii>i>ed in Montreal In 1884, one-fourth 
 were shipped in Montreal. In 1885, two-thirds of the 
 whole quantity that we carried — and that was considerable 
 — were shipped in Montreal. In 1880) and last year, three- 
 fourths of tln^ deals that we carried in our steamers that is 
 the Allan .Line, were shipped in. Montreal. 
 
 The reason of our shipping from Montreal will be ap- 
 parent when I say that the rate of wage^in (^>uebec per day 
 time is one-half greater than in Mon.real, and ibr night 
 work, double the Montreal rates; conseqttently we do as 
 little W(»rk as we can in Quebec. 
 
 The Ship Laborers' ^(jciety have about seventy (70) rules 
 to regulate their services. These rules were made to suit 
 another period altogether ; they were made when there was 
 scarcely anything but sailing ships in the trade Th'ise rules 
 still prevail although the tonnage of steamers has increased 
 immensely and the tonnage of sailing ships has dimhiislied. 
 
 2 
 
 « 
 
 *\ 
 
 1 
 
 # 
 

 I 
 
 Quebec has to compete with Montreal for the trade, and 
 if business can be done to better advantage in Montreal, 
 steamers will take their cargoes there, and consequently, the 
 amount of labor to be done in Quelioi^ will, year by year, 
 decrease. There should be two classes of rules : one to 
 regulate the sailing ships' work and anothi^r to suit steamers. 
 It is impossible that the intert'st of the laborer which, as I 
 said before, are identical witt those of the shipowner, can 
 be served, unless the laborer in Quebec is put in a position 
 to compete with the laborer in Three Rivers, Montreal and 
 other ports. Very properly. Sir, 1 think that there is a rule 
 which prevents the loading of timber by steam, because the 
 danger to the life of the laborer in the hold of a sailing ship 
 is seriously increased by the use of steam winches ; and I 
 do not lind fault with that rule, but I do find fault with 
 that rule being made to apply to steamers taking short 
 timber over the side. No earthly reason can be given for 
 making this rule apply to steamers. Merchants here who 
 wish to ship birch that comes from eastern and southern 
 points actually have to send it to Montreal at very great 
 expense, and there it is taken on board the steamers with 
 the steamer's steam winch. Here the laborer sees that trade 
 going to Montreal and is not able, owing to the rules of the 
 Society, to prevent its going there. There is an amount of 
 traflic which steamers can compete for and take, but they 
 are prevented by the rules of the Society from so doing. 
 Another thing is thai time and a-half is made to apply to 
 night wages. No sailing ship that I know of ever had 
 work done at night ; at least there are but very rare instan- 
 ces of night work ])eing done on sailing ships. The rule 
 how^ever which is made to ajjply to the sailing ships applies 
 to steamships and is a cause of great expense to us. For 
 instance, we have to coal our Mail boats genc^rally at night 
 with a large gang, and we have to pay fifty-six and a quarter 
 cts. per hour to the laborers who are employed in handling 
 the coals. I have a knowledge of the charges for such work 
 
19 
 
 in "Baliimore, Boston and Portland, wht're our steamers run, 
 and the charges are about one-halt of those whi(;h prevail 
 in Quebec. There is no reason why the rate of wages for 
 sailing ships should apply to steamers. In order to save 
 expense in coaling here, wg are obliged to bring out a large 
 quantity ot coals so as tc suit the return voyage. The 
 Quebec laborer loses the work, and we have to carry freight 
 both ways for nothing, i would also say that in my opinion 
 there are no laborers anywhere superior to the Quebec 
 laborers ; but in my opinion also, they are badly advised 
 by some one, 1 don't know who. Whoever is to blame I 
 cannot say. Of course, they wont take the advice of tlie 
 merchants. They think that the merchants are prejudiced 
 against them and thar their -mly idea is to lower their 
 wages for their own ^the merchants') benefit. It is so un- 
 true that instead of our desiring to injurt* them and in order 
 to show our friendly spirit towards them, we Would be 
 prepared to contribute to their charitable fund, the benevo- 
 lent object of the Society is worthy of all praise, and the 
 merchants wovdd assist in this object by su])S(riptioi, I 
 speak, knowing what I say. So iar from having any un- 
 friendly spirit towards the laborer, the merchants are 
 actuated by the very best motives in their dealings with 
 them ; and it is our mutual interest that we desire to serve. 
 
 In answer to questions put by Mr. Helbrouner, Mr. liae 
 said : 
 
 Not being familiar with the actual cost of loading vessels 
 in Montreal, I could not say exactly how much more it 
 costs per stamlard to load deals in Quebec than in Montreal 
 I simply give the difference in wages between the two 
 places. I presume that if the rate of wages here is one- 
 half more per day than the wages in Montreal, and that the 
 night wages here are double the night wages in Montreal, 
 that loading there must cost less than it does here. The 
 proof of it is that the trade has gone there. The actual cost 
 
 f 
 
 i 
 
20 
 
 ^ 
 
 in dollars and cents per standard T cannot tell you, but I have 
 a memorandum of work done here and the cost varies from 
 $1.50 to $2 per standard. One of the reasons for ships pre- 
 ferring to go to Montreal is that they load timber there of 
 small dimensions by steam, and the rules of the Society 
 prevent it hero. I know nothing about Montreal practice ; 
 I know the rate of wages and that's all. IfperrJssion were 
 granted here to load steamers with longitudinals and other 
 small timber, vessels would take thtnr cargo here in pre- 
 ference to going to Montreal. We have constantly refused 
 to take birch here, because of the detention and additional 
 expense Birch and other small timber, are not loaded 
 cheaper in Montreal, because there is more freight room 
 there. "VVe have enough freight room here ; but vessels 
 load there on account of the diminished cost and of their 
 being able to use steam in loading. 1 have no knowledge 
 as to vH ether boat-owners and barge-owners up the Ottawa 
 prei«ir to go to Montreal to coming to Quebec, Montreal 
 being the head of inland na\^igation, steamers with cargoes 
 for the West prefer to take them to Montreal. As for vessels 
 loading here or in Montreal that is all a question of profit 
 for the steamers If steamers will earn more money by 
 loading in Quebec, they will take their cargoes here and 
 not in Montreal . «iiiu if they get the w^ork done cheaper in 
 Montreal, they will go there. It is perfectly true that 
 steamers having an inward cargo to Montreal tak(? grain and 
 cattle from there l)ack Grain is the chief stiifener, and for 
 the purposes of ballasting, they generally take grain and 
 nothing else. Birch and longitudinals are not in demand 
 for ballasting purposes. We have always been al)le to get 
 grain as ballast, but whether or not we will be able to get 
 it in the iuture I cannot say Grain used to be shipped from 
 Quebec many years ago ; and cattle are frequently taken 
 here now. There is no rule among those of the Ship 
 Laborers' Benevolent Society which prevents shipowners 
 
 
21 
 
 iVom loading cattle and grain at Quebec. The onlj- thing 
 is the rate of wages. As I have already said, they are one- 
 half more per duy and double at night, (irain in Mon- 
 treal is transferred by ehn'^ators. There are, ol' course, a 
 certain number of men employed at work tiiat is called 
 trimming, but the transferring of grain is done by elevators. 
 If it were done here now it would have to be done by hand ; 
 but if we had elevators here, we certainly could load grain. 
 The shipping of cattle would not be affected by thi> differ- 
 ence in the cost of labor, because the part the laborer takes 
 in shipping cattle does not ami»unt to anything. They do 
 not require to be hoisted by steam, but they walk aboard. 
 I do not think the Ship Laborers' Society is to blame for 
 gram not being loaded in Quebec. I would not put that 
 on their shoulders ; they have got enough. If Quebec 
 merchants would construct elevators, we certainly could 
 load grain here providing they chose to purchase the gram 
 and ship it here. It is true the ships inward discharge 
 with steam winches. There are no imx)ediments whatever 
 in discharging cargoes in Quebec : the only thing is the rate 
 of w^ages as compared with Montreal. It costs us more to 
 handle inward oroutgoing cargo in Quebec than it doejs m 
 Montreal, owing to the dilference i't the rate of wages. I 
 could not give you the exact cost of loading or unloading m 
 Montreal, but I know that if, in Quebec, we have to pay 
 one-half more per day and double per night the wages 
 paid in Montreal, it must cost more here than it does there. 
 I cannot say if the laborers hero work more ra^pidly than 
 those ni Montreal. I do not know how they work in Mon- 
 treal. I am a Quebec man and know nothing at all about 
 how quickly or slowly they work in Montreal. I will 
 endeavour to let the Commission know how much it costs 
 to discharge a vessel in Quebec ; and I will write to Mr. 
 Allan and ask him if he can furnish me with the cost of 
 discharging in Montreal. I don't know that he will bt) 
 
 •ft' 
 
 I 
 
sg 
 
 I 
 
 u 
 
 able to giro the exact figures, as there they load and dis- 
 char<j;e at the same time. But il" he can give me the figures, 
 I will undertake to furnish them to your Chairman. It is 
 not only on account of the rules of the Ship Laborers' 
 Society that we go tu Montreal we are bound to go 
 there. We are not obliged to stop at Quebec, but we do it 
 for our own interest and that of our customers. Our Line 
 and the Dominion Line are the only two lines of steamers 
 that stop at. Quebec. All the others take a pilot and go 
 right through to Montreal. 
 
 The laborers of Quebec do not object to the use of steam 
 in the loading of vessels with butter, cheese, bacon and such 
 things, but only to the loading of vessels with timber. 
 
 In answer to the Chairman — Deals go under the head of 
 timber, AVe also take a large uuantity of what we call 
 splints, that is the material for match-making, We take 
 thousands of cases of it from Queb(^c every summer, and 
 that is so nearly allied to timber in the eyes of the Ship 
 Laborers' Society that they wont allow us to use steam in 
 the stowing of these cases. These boxes are, of course, 
 suSicien tly small to load v\ it hout steam. However, whether 
 it suited our convenience or not to use steam, the rules of 
 the Society would not allow it. The only exception which 
 the Society makes in the way of wood goods with rc'gard 
 to the use of steam are cases of spool wood. We are allowed 
 to use steam for hoisting those cases, but not in hoisting 
 cases of splints which are one-quarter of the weight, and in 
 the handling of which Ivy steam there is no risk whatever- 
 It is however an instance of the absurdity of one of their 
 rules, by which, no interest is served 
 
 I have been a member of the Council of the Hoard of 
 Trade for many years. 1 cannot remember any particular 
 time when they tried to (ind out the cause of the shipping 
 business leaving Quebec They have interested themselves 
 in it for years and have very often discussed the matter 
 
 t 
 
t 
 
 u 
 
 f 
 
 1 
 
 feitnong tkeiilseives. They even had a meeting with the 
 Ship Laborers' Society or rather delegates of that Society 
 two years ago, last November, with the object of coming to 
 some understanding. 
 
 We also asked them to meet us last year for the purpose 
 of discussing their rules, but they refus(Hl to do so. 
 
 The Ship Laborers' Society are not responsible for the 
 decrease in the shipment of square timber, as it has decreased 
 principally from natural causes. The shipment of sawn 
 lumber, that is the square timber turned into deals, is the 
 trade that has gone to Montreal, 
 
 The Secretary of the Board is in a better position than I 
 to inform you as to whether the Quebec Board of Trade has 
 ever communicated with Boards of Trade in Norway or 
 Sweden in relation to the timber business. The Ship 
 Laborers' Society, through their President, asked us to name 
 the By-Laws we desired to have modified, but we considered 
 that they were too numerous to name and we expressed our 
 wish to have a friendly talk with the representatives of the 
 Society with a view of coming to some agreement. 1 am 
 not in a position to say if the Secretary, Mr. Andrews, got 
 special instructions to communicate our wishes to the 
 Society ; but as far as my memory serves me, he was re- 
 quested to see the President and inform him verbally of the 
 stand which the Board took in this matter. 1 have a perfect 
 recollection of meeting Mr. Dinan and his confreres of the 
 Society in the room of the Board of Trade a year ago last 
 November. At this interview, we sketched the changes 
 which we deemed desirable for the Society to make in their 
 rules in order to save the trade, Mr. Dinan and the other 
 representatives promised that they would brmg the subject 
 before a meeting of their Society. The first thing 1 did on 
 my return from Montreal last year was to see Mr. Dinan. 
 He then told me that the matter had not yet been brought 
 before the body, but that at the meeting to be held in the 
 
 ^ 
 
24 
 
 * } 
 
 rnonth of May, he would take occasion to do so, but \xe heard 
 nothin«f further about it. In the month of August last, the 
 Council of the Boord of Trade requested a conference with 
 the 8hip Laborers' Society, which they were not disposed to 
 grant. The only meeting we have had with them was the 
 one to which I have already alluded and which took place 
 in November 1886. Under the circumstances, T do not 
 consider that Mr. Leahy's letter required an official answer. 
 
 Some of the merchants have booms and loading berths in 
 places other than Quebec, but J have no personal knowledge 
 of the fa»'t that they compel their chartered vessels to load 
 at these berths under pain of being detained the full number 
 of loading days. 
 
 [ have no practical knowledge of the loading of sailing- 
 ships with timber. 1 can only speak with reference to the 
 work of loading steamships. As I have already said, 1 con- 
 sider it a reasonable thing Ibr the Ship Laborers to object 
 to sailing vessels being loaded by steam winches, as great 
 danger to life and limb is incurred thereby, and the men 
 are not acting unreasonably in objecting to its use. 
 
 No sailing vessels are built nowadays without having 
 steam winches on board. 
 
 I am not in a position, to say if the lumber district tribu- 
 tary to Quebec is very much depleted. 
 
 1 cannot say if vessels would prefer to load in Montreal 
 even if the cost of loading here were the same as in Mon- 
 treal, but I am certain that they would remain in Quebec if 
 they could do so to advantaire. 
 
 In bringing grain from Montreal, the larger the craft, the 
 less it M ill cost. It can be carried in a vessel of large di- 
 mension say, five thousand tons, cheaper than in a number 
 r'' '. ■''■ . consequently, so far as that is concerned, it is 
 . v'vi ^'3 to take a vessel as far up the stream as 
 
 Uj ' 
 
 1 
 
 i 
 
 hi my up.nion, Quebec possesses no advantages over 
 
 ■# 
 
K 
 
 I 
 
 Montreal With regard to tho opening and closing of naviga- 
 tion. I havo known navigation to close in Montreal and 
 Quebec on the same day. 1 believe if a v<'ssel cannot <x<) up to 
 Montreal, she can scarcely get up to Quebec. It is impos- 
 sible to say exactly when navigation closes ; it varies greatly 
 Irom ycnir to year. Vessels have always got to look ahead and 
 sail before the bad weather comes. Our last steamer sailed 
 last year about the 21 st November, and naAigation remained 
 opened to the first December. Of course we could not fore- 
 cast that. 1 have, however, known vessels to be here m the 
 spring some days before the opening ot navigation to Mon- 
 treal, but that is not a frequent occurrence. 
 
 Not being a Montrealer, 1 cannot tell you what ship's 
 charges, including wharfage, are there ; but I could give 
 you the charges in Quebec. 
 
 As to whether or not steamers charge lower freights lor 
 European ports from Quebec than from Montreal I cannot 
 say. But T know we have made contracts for deals and 
 charged the same freight from Quebec as from Montreal. 
 The great advantage offered to us in Montreal is the lower 
 rate of wages, and then, practically .^peaking, there is no 
 additional cost in bringing freight from Montreal on board 
 our steamers. 
 
 At the conference \vhich was held a couple of years ago 
 and to which 1 have already alluded, no agreement was 
 arrived at between the Ship La[>orers and the Board of 
 Trade. As before mentioned, the President and the heads of 
 the ditlerent sections who were with him undertook to use 
 their iniluen<^e to have; the Society consider the projiositions 
 made In. the same way, the merchants undertook l.o have 
 certain things which were objectionable to the laborers re- 
 moved. The Ship Laborers however afterwards declined 
 to make the changes suggested ai (hat meeting. We had no 
 ofhcial communication to that effect, but we were so informed. 
 Official communications between the two bodies are very 
 
 I 
 
^1& 
 
 tjcarce. ^The Board of Trade, on their part, con8ider^4 tk^ 
 suggestions made by th(> delegates at that conference, and 
 there was a copy of the decisions arrived at by the Board in 
 relation to these suggestions given to Mr. Dinan and another 
 retained by the Conntul of the Board. It is embodied in 
 the statement which I have produced. 
 
 Vessels coming only to Quebec do not make more trips 
 than those which go to Montreal I have known vessels 
 to go to Montreal and return loaded in quicker time than 
 they could have been handled here. Of course, if steamers 
 would discharge their cargoes here, reload immediately, 
 and start, they would save time 
 
 Some years ago, we were allowed the use of steam win- 
 ches in loading steamships, but that privilege — of course, 
 all such things are privileges to the merchants — was with- 
 drawn by the Society. We had to cease taking birch here. 
 We afterwards tried the experiment with one of our 
 steamers and we spent the freight in loading. Although 
 we had steam winches on the deck of the ship, they re- 
 fused to allow them to ]>e worked, rig-ged up winches 
 themselves, and cut up our decks with screws. On the 
 whole it was the w^orst bargain I ever made, and it is the 
 last I will make of that sort. We v/anted to see how it 
 would answer, and we found it out to our cost. 
 
 I have not the least idea as to whether they use steam 
 winches in the loading of vessels with timber and deals in 
 Mobile, Pensacola, Savannah and other Southern ports. I 
 know what they do in Quebec, and steamships are loaded 
 by steam in New York, Boston, Portland and Montreal ; • 
 that is, short timber such as steamers take, not timber of 
 50 or 60 feet in length. I have myself seen them load 
 short timber in New York. I cannot say positively 
 whether splints can be handled quicker by steam than by 
 ^«nJ, ^ut I would like very much to try the experiment, 
 if the privilege to do so could be obtained from the Society, 
 
 '* 
 
 *■ 
 
s? 
 
 'i 
 
 tt has soitietimos happened that men who have worked 
 day and night here on steamers, in order to catch the tide 
 in qoing to Montreal. Although tlie sun does not set till 
 eight o'clock, still night begins, with the Society, at live 
 o'clock; and any work done alter thai must be paid for at 
 the rate of llfty-six and one-quarter cents per hour. 
 
 With reference to the average earnings ol" ship laborers 
 in this port for the season, 1 would say that I do not 
 believe any man could answer that ([uestion. 
 
 'i 
 
 8th March — By Mr. Reokett— In the first place, 1 
 would like to state that during the last few years some 
 little difhctilties have arisen between the merchants and 
 the ship laborers. We have endeavored, as much as pos- 
 sible, to conciliate them, but, up to the present, with very 
 little success. We have never attacked their rate of wages, 
 nor have we, in any way, infringed upon what they con- 
 sidered their rights. What w^e wished to bring before 
 them was that the shipping interests of the port were their 
 interests as well as otv^s and the property holders in Que- 
 bec. We have frequently tried to meet the shi]) laborers 
 to discuss these questions, but no good results have follow- 
 ed our etTorts. 
 
 In making a general statement, I desire to bring before 
 you one of our chief grievances. In the first place, there is 
 the question of the number of hours per day which the 
 men work. I would draw your attention to th(^ fact that 
 the labor is divided in two distinct classes; one being in 
 connection with square timber, and the other deals, longi- 
 tudinals, and such. The loading of square timber requires 
 skilled laborers ; and, in this connection, I would say that, 
 in my experience, I have met no men who could do that 
 work as well as the men of Quebec. As to their working 
 eight hours, we have never raised a question, nor as to 
 
28 
 
 their wages, because it is hard labor and labor thai is well 
 done. The second class of labor is that in connection with 
 sawn lumber. The trade in this lumber is last driltrng 
 away jroia us, partly iroiu the fact that in other places 
 there are less restrictions, and that it costs less to load than 
 it does here in Quebec. On that point we had a conference 
 with the ship laborers. AVe a.sked them to consider the 
 subject and to see if some concessions coTdd not be made 
 on their part, by which we <'ould compete with other 
 places. It is painful for us. : . merchants, to see the trade 
 slippmi^ away from us, but \a .\ are powerless to prevent it 
 under the present state of things. 1 might g-ive you an 
 instance of how some of their rules work, it is in relation 
 to the ship "Frederick," of w^hich the last witness spoke. 
 This ship was chartered with a cargo of deals. We wished, 
 at the last moment, to send forward a quantity of birch — 
 1 think about 5,000 to (1,000 feet. We wished to stow it in 
 the hold; but the Ship Laborers' Society, in obedience to 
 their rules, would not load it unless a full square timber 
 gang were employed. We asked them to meet us to try 
 and overcome the difficulty, but they would not come to 
 any understanding about it, and we had to hire barges and 
 send it to Montreal, at a heavy expense to us. The effect 
 of that has been to force us to ship large quantities of simi- 
 lar timber from Montreal. The trade in this lumber is 
 going to be a large and important one, and if we cannot, 
 to advantage, load here, we are bound to go elsewhere. 
 One point which is raised with regard to steam winches 
 is that they are dfingerous. It cannot be more dangerous 
 ill Quebec than in Montreal, and there, we have very few 
 accidents in the working of steam winches. It seems to 
 me impossible that greater carelessness can be exhibited in 
 Quebec than in Montreal. The use of steam winches in 
 the loading of sailing ships differs greatly from its use in 
 the loading of steamships. Sailing ship^ have bow ports 
 
 \ 
 
 i 
 
2fi 
 
 I 
 
 and can. be loaded iM'tIrr by hiiud tl\nn t)y ist(.'am and there 
 lb less dangtM- to the men. We have !iever raised the ques- 
 tion about then lules relating- to ihe use of steam ou sail- 
 ing ships, but we contend that these rules should not ap- 
 ply to steamers thai would take a part i ar^o oi' shon tim- 
 ber and part deals. This short timber, which has to be 
 put in over the side of the vtssel, could be taken (m board 
 by the use of steam without i.here beiny the slightest 
 danger to the workingmen. Still we are not allowed to 
 use steam for such purposes, and we are obliged to send 
 portion of our timber to Montreal to be loaded. J might 
 draw a comparison between loading a ship in Thre<' Rivers 
 and in Quebec Some of our ships come out chartered for 
 Quebec or Three Rivers. They go to Three Rivers, pay 
 their towage and i>ilotage there and back, and still save 
 money. I consider that the loading i)er standard m Mon- 
 treal is ( heaper than it is in Quebec A great deal, of 
 course, may be said in favor of Montreal as being the 
 nearest place for the manufacturers of lumber up the Ot- 
 tawa to bring their lumber and ship it ; but that does not 
 account for the whole trade leaving Quebec. I can also 
 cite instances of ships, large ships of 800 or 1,000 tons, 
 going up to Three Rivers and loading there in preference 
 to Quebec, and I maintain that where such a thing is done 
 there is something wroiig. The merchants of Quebec, on 
 their part, have made efforts to come to some arrangements 
 with the laborers. We have done all we could to induce 
 business to come here, but the ship laborers are not dis- 
 posed to grant any concessions, and our efforts have so far 
 been futile. The business in square timber is drifting 
 away. For that the Ship Laborers' Society is not alto- 
 gether resjionsible. It is caused principally by the deple- 
 tion of our forests. We cannot expect to hold that trade 
 beyond a certain time, but there is business in savA^n lum- 
 ber to replace it, and if we could oti'er advantages here to 
 ships, that trade would remain with us. 
 
 "I; 
 
30 
 
 
 1 •' 
 
 As T have alrondy said, wo do not object jo tho wages of 
 tho iiion loadiiiii* h(|uafi^ (iiuber, \>\\i wo object to the rulos 
 of the Society relntin;^ to sailing ships bein«i' made to apply 
 to steamships. It ha!< boen for some years our desiro to 
 meet tho Society and diseii.ss the ([uestion at length, so as 
 to arrive at some conclusions which would be satisfactory 
 aud benelicial tu both merchants and shi]) laborers. 
 
 In answer to questions put by mt^nibers of the Connnis- 
 sion — 
 
 Steam winches are not required ni the loading of deals, 
 they are never used in the loading of deals in Quebec. 
 Ship laborers, in a certain measure, have something t(» do 
 with the shii)ments oj deals leaving the |)ort of Quebec, 
 because, by the rules of their Society, they drive away 
 steamers that would prefer to remain here, if they could 
 load mixed cargoes. The steamers, not being allowed to use 
 steam winches, go elsewhere. Many vessels are chartered 
 as ehea]>ly in Montreal as they are in Quebec, aiul there- 
 fore ship laborers are not altogether responsible^ for the trade 
 going there ; but there is a good deal of it that woidd rtv 
 main here, were it not that the rules of the Society tend to 
 increase the cost of loading. We do not employ ship labor- 
 ers, but in the summer season, we employ from 100 to 120 
 men besides bateaumen These men are employed as axe- 
 men, and some to work around the booms. The loading of 
 square timber requires, asT have already said, skilled labor- 
 ers, and untrained men are practically useie.^s at it. For 
 this work, I believe, there are no men who can compete 
 with the Quebec ship laborers. 
 
 1 have heard of accidents frequently happening, by which 
 men were seriously injured on board ships, but gt^nerally 
 these accidents can be easily accounted for. 1 could not 
 say if damages w^ere claimed by or paid to parties so in- 
 jured. 
 
 Short timber can be put through the hatchway by steam 
 
 I 
 
 • 
 
m 
 
 with as inucl) salcty as liouvy timber that i8 takon In 
 throtiji^li ports without steiim. I would uoL at all nniom- 
 moud loadiuc: the ordinary timluM- ships, hnvina,' how ports, 
 by stoani. 1 do not think i! is nocessary, because the work 
 is as well, or perhaps bt'ttor, done by hand It wo had the 
 privih'i^tr ol" loading by steam winches, ( tliink a groat many 
 steam«'rs, especially that «'las8 ol steainurs which we. call 
 " trami)S," would be indue td lo remain m Quebec to load 
 We load a threat many in Montreal, whereas U' we had such 
 privilege, we would have iheni loaded ht-re in Quebec. 
 
 J am sorry to say that there is great deal of time lost by 
 the men in the loading of vessels, on account of their not 
 being furnished wit h timber. tShips are chartered to carry 
 a certain sort of timber, and j>erhaps we cannot have it 
 ready at the time. We do not like it any more than the 
 men. It is our interest to get the cargo oH" as ([uickly as 
 possible, and these delays touch our own po(\kets. 1 have 
 heard of cases of men living at Diamond Harbor w4io have 
 gone to Sillery Cove and to other places a good distance 
 off, and on reaching there, got only one or two hours work, 
 or perhaps none at all I am also aware that the cost of 
 their going there has to be paid by themselves. I believe 
 there are very few instances where men, in the loading of 
 vessels, have made only eight days full ti me in twenty-five or 
 thirty days. Laborers only get paid for the time they actually 
 work, no matter how long (he ship may be working. 1 
 could not say if ships are now loaded cheaper than before 
 the formation of the Society. It is very rarely that the 
 actual cost of loading a ship c(>mes under our notice. The 
 Captain generally asks for a certain sum of money from 
 the office and gets it. 1 believe, however, that although 
 the wages are higher than then, still the work is better 
 done now. I cannot say if vessels are now loaded cheajier 
 and in less time than they were iifteen years ago. A ship 
 broker would be better qualified to give evidence on that 
 
32 
 
 point, I fonld not say il" the cost of luiloadirig vessels is 
 decreasing e\'ery year , we have iioihiiig to do with the 
 iinloadinj^- ot vess-^ls ; we are interested only in the loading 
 of them, with the return cargo. I could not way positively 
 whether it lakes; less time to load ships now than it did 
 five years ago, 
 
 I certainly do not think that the rules of the Society, 
 relating to the nuniher oi mento be employed, have tended 
 to decrease tlie time occupied in loading vessels, but they 
 have greatly increased the cost. We are required, in char- 
 tering a ship in England, lor a mixed cargo, to pay addi- 
 tional freight m consideration of the additional sum the 
 ship has to pay for labor 
 
 I think It has aln^ady l)et'n admitted that the wages for 
 loading square limber are not objected to. We object to 
 more men being employed on a ship than is necessary. 
 My experience in loading ships with mixed cargoes is that 
 they generally put the large timber in the l)ottoin and 
 portion of the deals are simply used to sto\\' that wood, 
 and the balance are put on the toj) ; and that when n, great 
 many men are employed, and the ship nearly loaded, they 
 are in the way of each other. 
 
 We don't know anythmg about disputes wrhich may 
 arise between the men and stevedores or captains. But 
 when we hap]^en lo hear of disputes, we try to see jus- 
 tice done between them. 
 
 It is true that the quantity of timber coming to Quebec 
 has decreased iierhaps ti'ty per cent, duiing the last ten years. 
 The Ship lijiborers" Society, m my o])inion, is not altogether 
 responsible for this decrease. It arises principally from 
 natural causes. 
 
 It is simply a question of religion whether men work on 
 Sundays und h(jlidays or not, in the coves where cargoes 
 are taken. We never ask our men to work on Sunday, 
 neither do we interfere with them when they do work. 
 
:13 
 
 If they rolused to work on Sunday, I do jioi believe it 
 would cause any dispute, although against our wish. 
 Delays sometimes occur in supplying the cargo to be load- 
 ed. It, however, all depends upon the description ol car«n). 
 The cargo may have been prepared a long- while in ad- 
 vance, and then, of course, there is no delay caused. It is 
 possible that merchants sometimes send only one bateau 
 alongside a ship, when the Captain has ordered two, but 
 that is a matter between the shipper and the Captain He 
 may ask for a kind of ^vood that the shipper is not bound 
 to give him, and the delay is caused thereby. 
 
 We have no deep water wharves here that we load deals 
 from, except the Louise Embankment. We generally load 
 here from bateaux 
 
 In relation to the ship " Frederick," they said that a cer- 
 tain number of men should be retained until ihe loading 
 was completed, whether the ship want ^ them or not. It 
 was stated that the rules of the Society admitted of no 
 other arrangement, and that the ship must employ some- 
 where about thirty men. We wrote to the President of the 
 Society about this ship, asking hirn to try and meet the 
 difficulty, but he, on the part of the Society, declined to do 
 so. I never heard that the mistake was entirely on the 
 part of the stevedore. We communicated with the Presi- 
 dent, and he, I presume, a ted with authority i have 
 heard of such things as ^ips being given by merchants to 
 captains and stevedore.-i, but I have no personal knowledge 
 of it. I d<» not see ho\>s' the use of the telephone cov.ld ex- 
 pedite the loading of ships. It is all a question <>" 1 1 tide. 
 We have to w^ait for the tide. 
 
 We cannol tell you w^iai arrangem.&nts th,. stevedores 
 make with the men Clause V ef their rules may require 
 only the employment of nine winchers, live holders and 
 one swingt>r, I don't know ho\>' that claus-G wo?-ks. All I 
 know hi connection with the troible we haii about tha 
 
 ' 4: 
 
t\ 
 
 ship •' Frederick " is that tht^ i-eproseiitatives of th^ Society 
 waited upon us on more than one occasion and said that 
 we should have to encage something' about thirty men. I 
 would not advocate the erapluymg of crews in the loading 
 of timber, but, ni my opinion, the Captain and stevedore 
 should be allow <^d to make their own. arrangements as to 
 the number of men to be employed. 
 
 It is an every day occurrence that steamers unload in 
 Montreal and come lower down the river to load, but do 
 not come to Quebec. 
 
 We can charter vesselfe to Three Rivers, Pierreville or 
 Montreal as cheaply as to Quebec. Vessels positively re- 
 fuse to load in (Quebec. 
 
 I believ" thert' are no men eqttal to the Quebec ship 
 laborers for loading square timber and for that reason, they 
 ought to be w^ell ]>aid. Besides that, they work only during 
 a part of the summer season, and the amount earned by 
 them cannot be very great. I eannot say if the Quebec 
 laborers can. <lo as much work in eight hours as the Montreal 
 laborers in ten hours, I don't know how long it takes to 
 load a ship in Montreal. The rates for loading deals in 
 Quebec vary Irom $1,00 to |1.20 per St. Petersburg stand- 
 ard. T could not tell you exactly, without referring to books, 
 now much it cost per standard (o load deals before the 
 adoption of these rules by the Society. I shall look into 
 the matter, and, if possible, Avill give you the iigures at some 
 future time 1 ihmk there are other w^itnesses who will 
 be better able to give you that information than 1, because 
 the merchants' business does not bring him in close contact 
 with these matters. In Montreal, the cost, per St Peters- 
 burg standard, is eighty-fi\'e cents when taken from barges< 
 and ninety cents when taken from the wharf I have not 
 heard that the same class of timber was loaded here last 
 summer at sixty-hve and seventy cents. 
 
 1:! 
 
 ( h 
 
85 
 
 tth March, 1888— By Mr. F BilungsJ-ev.— Before 
 being examined, I desire to endorse the opinion expressed 
 by Mr. Beckett. 
 
 The firm of J. Burstall & Co,, of which 1 am a member, is 
 engaged in the shipment of timber and lumber J am not 
 familiar with the shipping trade in other ports than Que- 
 bec and Montreal. I could not give you any of the figures 
 asked for from j^revious witnesses, regaiding the cost of 
 loading vessels. I know the cost f)f loading vessels in 
 Quebec and Montreal. Timber can be loaded cheaper off 
 bateaux in Montreal than in Quebec, because labor is lower 
 there. It, however, costs us more as shippers. I cannot 
 tell you the actual dilference in the t^ost, but it costs us 
 more for our ])orrion of the work, thai is, the sending of 
 stuff alongside the ship, in Montreal than in Quebec. We 
 pay our men more in Montreal than in Quebec Tlie ship 
 laborers are an impediment to us in this way that, owing 
 to their rules, we are driven to Montreal, whore it costs us 
 more as shippers than in Quebec, but where it costs the 
 ship a great deal less. We have had to ship stull' from 
 Quebec to Montreal, to be taken on board there, because the 
 Ship Laborfrs' Society would not allow ihe ships to use 
 steam winches here. We are this winter sending birch 
 timber from Arthabaska and other stations near Quebec on 
 the line of the Grand Trunk to Montreal at greater expense 
 than if we brought it to Quebec on this account. When 
 there w^ere no rules to prevent the use of steam winches 
 here, we took advantage of it, and there was then no su(^h 
 things as sending stulfto Montreal. I cannot tell vou how 
 many vessels were loaded here by steam winches during 
 the four years preceding the enforcing of the rule against 
 them. 
 
 T say that the cost of getting lumber loaded in Montreal 
 i* greater than in Quebec for this reason : that in Quebec 
 we pay our men from $1.00 to $1.20, and in Montreal wq 
 
 i 
 
 r 
 
 ^ 
 
 i 
 
36 
 
 '. *< 
 
 pay thorn |l.r»0. That is simply what we pay for labor as 
 shippers. We do not prefer to take our lumber to Mon- 
 treal and load there, hut we are compelled to do so. We 
 desire lo do our trade here, because we can overlook it our- 
 selves, whereas in Montreal it requires frequent visits in 
 order to attend to our interests properly. 
 
 We commenced shipping to Montreal some twelve years 
 ago on account of some dilhcnlty with the Ship Laborers' 
 Society ; don't quite recollect the circumstances, but, at all 
 events, it was the cause of our shipping from Montreal 
 instead of from (.Quebec. 
 
 I cannot give you the r^ctual iigures showing the differ- 
 ence in the cost of loadin;.' » hip in Montreal and the cost 
 in Quebec The actual cofci c^' putting a cargo on board is 
 less in Montreal than m (^ueuec, because ship labor is 
 lower and stearn winches are permitted there. 
 
 With regard to a vessel being dispatched more quickly 
 in Montreal than in Quebec, I would say that deals are 
 hoisted on board ten at a time by steam winches, while in 
 Quebec they are put on board by hand, and as shipowners 
 prefer using steam it is evident that there must be a saving 
 Where the shipowner has the privilege of doing as he 
 pleases, he prefers the use of steam. I believe steam is 
 quicker, I cannot tell you the cost of loading lumber in 
 Montreal. I onlv know the rate of wages. 
 
 The charge for entering and clearing a vessel at the 
 Custom House is ^[i each way. I decline to say how long- 
 it will take a clerk to do this work. 
 
 I desire to say in extension of what Mr iieckett remark- 
 ed, that I myself think it a hardship that the ship laborers 
 work only eight hours a day before the first of September, 
 when the days are loiiii. Our men work ten hours a day 
 right through the season and make overtime besides. An- 
 other thing in connection with the eight hours system that 
 I think is a further hardship is that the men begin to work 
 
the 
 
 37 
 
 at seven, knock off at eight and begin again ai nine. Why 
 should they not begin at eight o'clock nnd work till twelve ? 
 It upsets our arrangements very much in sendnig stuff 
 alongside the vessels. I do not think th.' v^ork is so very 
 hard that the men require rest durini^ the hall duy They 
 work four hours after one o clock and thi-y CDuld work lour 
 hours before twelve o'clock. We have never had any in- 
 terviews with the ship laborers or rej^resentalives of the 
 society in relation to this matter, but we have discussed it 
 with the stevedores The deepening ot the channel be- 
 tween Quebec and Montreal has undoubtedly <'aused a 
 great denl of the trade to go there. I am a Quel»er man, 
 the owner of real estate here, and ih«refore 1 want to set^ 
 trade prosper in Quebec, but 1 am lbr«^'d to go to Montreal. 
 I think, however, with regard to the trade in deals that 
 the Ship Laborers' Society, owing to its rules, has had a 
 great deal to do with driving the trade away from Quebec 
 to MontreaJ. \ think, if deals were permitted to be put on 
 board by steam winches in Qufbec, it w oiihi induce a great 
 many ships to remain here. \i deals were put on board in 
 Quebec at the same rates of wages as in Montreal, it would 
 also, I believe, tend greatly to mdnoe vessels to remain 
 here. If we so desired we could ascertain the figures 
 showing how much it costs us to put a certain quantity of 
 stuti' alongside a vessel in Montreal in comparison with 
 what it costs in Quebec. There are scarcely any steamships 
 that make Quebec their terminus. 1 might say in this 
 connection that in 1886 we had a stenmer in which we 
 desired to ship a quantity of oak. We applied to th^" Ship 
 Laborers' Society to be permitted to use the ship's steam 
 gear in bawling the oak on. board, but they would not 
 meet our wishes, and we had to send thi^ steamer to 
 Montreal. 
 
 Our boom men sometimes do as much as eight and a half 
 days' work in a v\eek. We pay them by th^' day, and ten 
 
 
 4 
 
 J 
 
^ 
 
 t 
 
 f 
 
 
 8^, 
 
 hours are n working day. Anything over that, we pay at 
 the same rate of w'ages. And I believe they earn as much 
 during the course of summer as the ship laborers who get 
 18 or $4 a day 1 could not just now give you the average 
 earnings of one of our men for the season. They get con- 
 stant work for about six months. Sometimes men are en- 
 gaged by the season. They are paid about 1240 or $250 for 
 the season They have their houses for the season and they 
 are always on hand vvhen we want them to Avork, day or 
 night. 1 don't know what the men do for the balance of the 
 year. JSome of them go aw^ay during the wintertime. Some 
 of them, however, have always something to do. I have 
 some men now employed. I do not know who amongst 
 the men own their own houses. 
 
 1 may mention here an \. .dent which occurred a couple 
 
 of years ago. I mention it m the hope that some of the 
 
 rules of the Society ^•.^U b'^ so {''""'r-ed as to cover cases of a 
 
 similar kind. We had a ship here that loaded about half 
 
 the cargo with timber and the remaind(^r with deals. When 
 
 she was almost completed, we asked the Captain as a favor 
 
 to take ten pieces of longitudinals, vvhich would have taken 
 
 the men, I suppose, ten minutes to put on board. They 
 
 refused to tak^> them on board unless there w^as a certain 
 
 payment made to them in excess ot wages earned. This 
 
 payment, we could not consent to make. It was to be sent 
 
 to an outside port as a sample, for the purpose of opening up 
 
 a new trade and of bringing money to our pockets and to 
 
 Quebec. But we had to forego it, owing to the rules of the 
 
 Society. A similar case occurred with us last year. We 
 
 wished to ship a few pieces of hickory in a vessel when the 
 
 gear was all taken down tor the timber portion ot the cargo 
 
 The Captain said he would take it provided it cost him 
 
 nothing extra, but, as Jie could not do it without paying 
 
 something considerable in addition, to comply with the ship 
 
 laborer.>' rules, we had to forego that also. These ^ire little 
 
89 
 
 ffet 
 
 things thaf. might he avoided, if the laborers would not hold 
 80 stnctly to their rules. 
 
 Personally I get along first rate with the lahorer.s. I 
 lully endorse the statements made by previous witnesses • 
 that the men in Quebec are the best laborers that can be 
 met with. I have seen the men work in Montreal and T 
 have seen them work in Quebec, and f consider tho Que- 
 bec ship laborers better than those in Montreal especially 
 the holders. We employ a good many men m Montreal 
 We paid about $5,000 for labor there last year. It certain- 
 ly seems as if men .'oming up from Quebec lose their 
 strength, because it takes two men to carry a deal in Mon- 
 treal, whereas one man will carry it in Quebec. 
 
 I am a member of the Council of the Board of Tracbi and 
 have been for some years past. I was not one of the dele- 
 gation appointed to meet the Ship Laborers' Society in 
 November, 1885 ; but I have got a copy of the proceedings 
 in my pocket. The lumber mer.^hants of this port are not 
 organized as a section of the Board of Trade, The Board of 
 Trade is composed of men engaged in all sorts of business. 
 There is no combination, perhaps unfortunately , between 
 the merchants. 
 
 f think the merchants would be quite prepared to submit 
 the difficulty which exists between the laborers and them- 
 selves to a board of arbitration, if they thought any good 
 w^ould result IVom it. 
 
 It is considerably over a year since they had a conferenco 
 with the laborers, at which suggestions were then made. 
 These suggestions, the delegates, who were present, pro- 
 mised to bring before the society, but we ha\-e heard noth- 
 ing further of them. For our own interests and for those 
 of the laborers, there should be a better understandino- be- 
 tween us, and I believe that some of these rules w hicirtend 
 so much to injure us should be abolished, 
 
 "1 
 
 :^ 
 
 ■y^^ 
 
 1 
 
" 
 
 40 
 
 1 know for a fact that there arc numhors of the hiborers 
 who would be delighted to see them rescinded. 
 
 '' tV 
 
 
 I 
 il 
 
 I 
 
 Ey Mr. El). Harper Wade, Timber Mcrchaiii, of the firm 
 of Smith, Wade & Co. — Deposed thai timber merchants have 
 no practicjil knowledge of the leading of vessels and do not 
 know exactly how ih'ip laborers do their work, but are per- 
 fectly satisfied that the work is well done, as this is acknow- 
 ledged by all shipowniers. There is considerable risk in 
 loading scjuare timber, a risk that would be increased by the 
 use of steam winches in connection with long s([uare tim- 
 ber such as is usually taken by sailing ships, but this does 
 not apply to birch, walnut and other short timber. The 
 carrying trade is gradually developing into a (j^uestion of 
 competition between sail and steam. 
 
 General mer<;haiidise and sawn lumber can be shipped 
 equally well from Montreal and Quebec. Has been oblig" 
 ed to send deals from Quebec lo Montreal for shipment at 
 considerable expense, Montreal ^steamship Agents having 
 refused to allow steamers to stop at Quebec . Steamship 
 Agents at Montreal an^ averse to Quebec. If steamship 
 owners could get their vessels loaded as eheaply in Quebec 
 as in Montreal, no doubt they would load here as readily 
 as there, but they fear the heavier charges at (Quebec. 
 
 The dee]>ening of the channel has enaf)led steamships to 
 load lull cargoes in Montreal instead of completing in 
 Quebec as formerly, and to that extent has had something 
 to do with trade going there. 
 
 Ship Liborers lose a great deal of time loading timber 
 ships. If the laborers residing at the ditl'erent coves were 
 to load the ships at these coves, considerable time w^ould be 
 saved. As matters now stand, some laborers leave New 
 Liverpool at a quarter past five in the mornliiL^; to work on 
 ships in town berths, and other laborers leave town at six 
 
41 
 
 o'clock to work on ships in Nt^vv Liverpool berths, work m 
 either case only comniondnt? at seven o . lock. There is the 
 SHmo loss of time in returning home at nio-iit This woukl 
 be avoided if New Liverpool lalx.rers worked on ships at 
 New Liverpool and Quebec laborers on ships in Quebec as 
 far as possible. 
 
 An average size shij) could be joadtnl in iibout nine or 
 ten days; does noi know that vessels take twenty to thirl y 
 days to load, but frequently vessels are m their loading 
 berths full time allowed for loading by .jharter party, that 
 being about twenty days. Cunnot say whether ships can 
 be loaded cheaper now than l)efore the Ship Laborers' So- 
 ciety was formed. 
 
 For loading timber on board sailing shij)s, \\ages are not 
 high, when labor and skill that is required are taken into 
 considerMtion, and due allowance made for uncertain and 
 broken nature of the work, but the wages for loading deals 
 are certainly high. The laborer is. no doubt, worthy of 
 his hire, but if wages for similar work are higher in Que- 
 bec than Montreal, business will go to the latter place. If 
 wages were the same here as in Montreal, there is no 
 doubt much of the shipping business would not go there. 
 Longitudinals can be loaded cheaptM- in Montreal than 
 Quebec, as in latter place they are regarded as square tim- 
 ber. • 
 
 Under present conditions it is impossible to carry on suc- 
 cessfully a large deal trade without doing a large portion 
 of it in Montreal In the endeavour to ship deals entirely 
 in Quebec, my firm sacriliced a considerable portion of 
 their deal business, and is only regaining it by shipping a 
 large portion of it in Montreal , but this would be altered 
 if wages were equalized. 
 
 Believes cattle could be as che;iply ship])ed from Quebec 
 as from Montreal . thinks it would ]>ay shippers to send 
 cattle to Quebec by rail for shipment, as principal loss in 
 
 i 
 
 i 
 
■^ 
 
 '-»t 
 
 f 
 
 42 
 
 catile takes placo between the two ports; is informed such 
 loss is greater ikan on the Atlantic 
 
 The square timber trade is falling off in quantity, the 
 suitable standing tinil>er having been cut away in places 
 most readily accessible. This makes square timber more 
 costly at [)lace of shi}>ment, and consequently less able to 
 corapct*' with (cheaper wood from other countries, but there 
 is plenty of wood in the forests, and the business in sawn 
 timber, })roduced as deals for England and boards for the 
 United States, is an increasing one. 
 
 No work is done at the coves on religious holidays ; 
 would as littlethink of asking a manic work on a religious 
 holiday as on a Sunday, unless the man wished to work on 
 such day. 
 
 Loiidini^ square timber, delivered by tower alongside 
 sailing vessels, is a special work requiring special skill. 
 The men get through nearly as much work now in eight 
 hours as they formerly did in ten In such work there is 
 no pressing (juestion of Montreal competition at present, 
 but loading deals and loading and discharging general 
 cargo is quite another thing, not requiring special labor, 
 and for this class of work, if he were a ship laborer, he 
 would work at the same rate of wages as paid in Mon- 
 treal to compete with that port. 
 
 f. 
 
 7th March— IJy Mr. Chas. Gr. Davies, of the lirm of 
 Chas. G. Davies & Co., Agents for Bryant, I'owis & Bryant, 
 (Ltd.) — Our firm ships a certain quantity of birch. The 
 commission charges in the shipping trade are generally 
 about tw^o and a-half per cent. I do not believe there 
 is any diflereuce in the ship's disbursements here and in 
 Montreal. To load deals in Montreal it costs eighty-five 
 and nin<^ty cents per standard : eighty-five cents from barges 
 and ninety cents from the wharves. There is a slight 
 
48 
 
 difference in tho port charovs in (.hit'h... and Montreal. 
 There we pay two ceutw per stundiud and t(!ii rents for 
 wharfage per thousand feet In Quebec it is one-tenth of one 
 per cent on value of carf^o. 
 
 If the same rate of wajres were paid to Montreal men as is 
 paid to Quebec men, they would mak(^ more in the season 
 than the Quebec men , because they arii more .onstanlly 
 employed. 
 
 I could not give you the actual cost of loading a vessel in 
 Quebec and in Montreal from the ship's point of view. The 
 cost of loading in Quebec would, ofrourse, varv from $].!() 
 to $1.20 per standard, and m Montreal from eighty-live to 
 ninety cents 1 could not say that many accidents have 
 occurred in the loading of deals by steam, 
 
 « 
 
 f 
 
 Vth March— By Mr. A. Hansen— J am a ship broker and 
 have been for the past thirteen years. I am connected with 
 ship " Frederick " aboui the loading of which a difficulty 
 arose last spring between the shippers and the Ship Laborers' 
 Society. A quantity of birch was to be put on board the 
 vessel, but the ship laborers, as explained to me by the 
 stevedore, in obedience to the rules which govern their 
 Society, refused to load this birch, unless the full complement 
 of men required by those rules would be engaged. This 
 the shippers refused to do and hence the difficulty 
 
 I have no personal knowL^dge of what became of that 
 bireh, but I heard it was sent to Montreal. That vessel 
 will be here next spring again, but will not, for difFer.nt 
 reasons, load in Quebec, but will go on to Montreal, ilie 
 expense here is greater than in Montreal. This is a Nor- 
 wegian vessel but will sail from England. I know it costs 
 from $1.00 to .$1.20 per St. Petersburg standard to load here 
 at present, and [ don't know of a time when it was loaded 
 at sixty or seventy cents per standard. 
 
 '■I 
 
 ^ 
 
I ' 
 
 f 
 
 f 
 
 4 
 
 44 
 
 Th«} Htevedoic. contracts for the loading of a vossel and in 
 renpousible for the work. (As lo whether a stevedore who 
 keeps more men employed in the hold ot a vessel than is 
 necessary, has to pay lor it or not, I would say that it all 
 depends upon the agreement.) Some times we pay the 
 stevedore for his per^ional serA ices and we pay the men, and 
 at other times, we contract with him for the whole work. 
 When the t^ontracit is made at so much per ton, it really 
 makes no difference to the shipowner how many men are 
 employed But if i he number ot men to be employed was 
 ItU'tto the stevedore, he could certainly contra^^t to make the 
 work at a much lower rate. It is not the fault of the steve- 
 dore tt) have more men employed than is necessary, as the 
 rules of ih.0 Society enforce a certain number of men to be 
 employed, and he cannot do otherwise than employ them. 
 If the stevedore should discharg-e any of his men, the rest 
 of the men working on the ship wouKl leave it and he 
 would pro})ably be refused laborers afterwiirds by the 
 Society, and the vessel could not be loaded by that stevedore. 
 I dont know of brokers writing home to shipowners and 
 telling that heavy charges wore due to the rules of the 
 Ship Laborers' Society, when in reality it was to cover their 
 own percentaire. TirokfTs need not make such things to 
 cover their p»^rcentage. Captains, as a rule, do not transact 
 business themselves and thus save the brokerage, but they 
 do it now more than formerly. Brokers sometimes go on 
 board to solicit customers. 
 
 I could not give you an idea of the average earnings of 
 the ship laborers in Quebec during a season. I cannot say 
 why the different mills in Quebec and in its vicinity are 
 shut down. 
 
 7 th March— By Mr. John Arthur Maguire. — I have 
 to point out that we are engaged in the South American 
 trade ; and from the nature of that trade, and the class 
 
 ♦ 
 
u 
 
 of timber that weHhip, there are cor ram rules of the Hociety 
 that mihtute against our trade. I may say, with your per- 
 misHioii, that I do not oonaider the vvajres of the Quebec 
 men too high. The rules that 1 objeei to principally are 
 the f'ollowinir: First, the number of men we arc oblio'e<l to 
 employ. ( )ur trade is ol a special Nort. It is necessary that 
 our lumber should be stowed m a dry coi/dition as the 
 royas^e is a very long one, taking as long as 100 days. If 
 it is not stowed in a dry condition, it is liable to mildew in 
 passing through the tropics, and heavy chums are made 
 against us by the Receivers of the cargoes. 
 
 Now I will show you how these rules requiring a certain 
 number of men to be employed are injurious to our trade. 
 We ha\ e not liere the facilities for loading from wharv«s 
 and the lumber has to be brought in lighters to the sid<' of 
 the ship, thus exposing it to the weather. 
 
 Now, there being a large number of men employed, we 
 must necessarily have a number of these lighters simultane- 
 ously alongside of the ship, and while there if a shower of 
 rain should fall, or if water should be splashed by i)assing 
 vessels or steamers, the lumber becomes wet and damp and 
 has to be taken back to its place of shipment and repiled, 
 to dry. In this way, we are subjected to very heavy ex- 
 penses ; on the other hand, the lumber being dry and on 
 being handled by such a number of men it is roughl\ used 
 and it is lia})le also to be somew^hat damaged. Of course, 
 if it is injured in any way, claims are made upon us by 
 those to whom we ship. Were we allowed to employ the 
 number of men that we deem necessary, we would be quite 
 willing to pay the wages which the Society demands. 1 
 may say here that in no place that I have visited have 1 
 seen work done as well and so expeditiously as l)y the 
 Quebec ship laborers. 
 
 Another of their rules which I would object to is that in 
 relation to the number of hours per day which the men 
 work. 
 
 % 
 
 1 
 
4^ 
 
 /? 
 
 t 
 
 
 K 
 
 I would like in the .summer months that instead of eight 
 hours, the men would work ten hours per day. In our 
 ])articuliir trade, wf can ])Ut the lumber on board only 
 durina* the fine summer days, and it would »e very de- 
 sirable that the men woulil work ten hours on these days. 
 
 In answer to (questions put by membt!rs of the Commis- 
 sion. 
 
 In our tiad«', the tost of loading m Quebec is eighty to 
 ninety cents per 1000 {yieX In Montreal, the standard rate 
 is fifty-live cents per 1000 feet. However, were we permitted 
 to employ, say. about ten men in the stowing' of our lumber, 
 we would prefer to loud m Quebec, although the wages are 
 in excess of those in Montreal. We could stow it as cheaply 
 or perhaps more so here. Our trade consists mainly in the 
 shipment of soft wood boards (s]>ruce) ; and it has to be 
 put on )K)ard as dry as possible, otherwise it will stain on 
 the long voyage to South America. We put it on board at 
 >ne temperature , and the temperature changes very ma- 
 terially before it gets to its destniation We claim that if 
 lumber be put on board perfect] y dry, it will not stain going 
 through the tropics. J can speak from ex])erience, having 
 btca in the tiade for ten years. 
 
 As I have already said, there is a standard rate for loading 
 in our trade m Mt»ntreal : it is done by The Export Lumber 
 Company^ at llochelaga, and the rate charged is lifty-live 
 cents per 1000 feet. There is I believe a difierence of about 
 twenty-hve cents or thirtv cents per 1000 feet between the 
 Quebec and Montreal rates. The loading of a vessel oi' 
 400,000 feet would cost m Montreal about i|;220.00 ; and 
 here it w^mld cost about $340.00. That does not include 
 tow^age 
 
 1 have known cases of \ essels wlmh could have been 
 loaded here in ten days taking as long as six weeks. 
 
 Kow, if stevedores w^ould be permitted to employ eight 
 or ten men to load a lumber ship inst^^ad of being obliged to 
 
been 
 
 eight 
 
 4T 
 
 Send three ligiiters alongside the ship, and thus run the risk 
 of having it (the himbor) wet, we could keep but one there 
 and the work would go on without interruption and with- 
 out loss of time to either the ship or the men. In the loading 
 of a large ship of, say, one thousanr] tons with deals, 1 
 would not object to there being twenty men employed. 
 The lumber we load is very light, it bomo' only one- inch 
 thick and twelve feet and up long ; and the stowing of it 
 is not hard work. 
 
 I do not consider that night begins ij] summer at live 
 o'clock. I think of course, as a general rule, the men would 
 not refuse to work for ten hours, if they were paid extra ibr 
 it. 
 
 By Waltkk J. Ray— I have been connect.'d with the 
 shipping business of this port for the past twenty-one years, 
 three years with the late firms of Falkenberg & McBlain, 
 and A. Falkenberg & Co., ship brokers, and eighteen years 
 with my present employers, Trice Brothers & Co. While 
 in the employ of A. F. & Co., the Ship Laborers So.iety 
 refused to work with foreign crews The late Mr. Falken- 
 berg, being then Consul (leneral tor Sweden and Norway, 
 instituted legal proceedings against the Society. The So- 
 ciety then boycotted all vessels consigned to the firm of A. 
 K. & Co.. which action ultimately ruined his business. 
 The bulk of our (P. B. & Co.) business is now done outside 
 the harbour of Quebec, a good deal owing to the action of 
 the Ship Laborers' Society, as we can now charter ships to 
 load at our outports for 2s. 6d. to 5s. per St. Petersburg 
 standard less than Quebec rates. Here is the charter of the 
 " Pontiac," chartered by us to load at " Quebec or Batiscan,' 
 the Quebec rate being 2s. 6d. moiv^ than if loaded at Batis- 
 can, which is sixty miles above Quebec The extra cost of 
 towage and pilotage to and from Batiscan w^ould be about 
 #250.00 Formerly we had to bring all our Batiscan deals 
 
48 
 
 
 ^ 
 
 I- 
 
 ■^ • I •■ 
 
 to Quebec to be shipped, as well as a large quantity from 
 our mills below Quebec. 
 
 I see no reason why steam should not be used in load- 
 ing timber or other cargo. Laborers and stevedores have 
 told me it would be safer to use steam. 
 
 All the " practical rules " of the ki'ociety are more or less 
 objectionable, and 1 would suggest one general amend- 
 ment making labor free in the port of Quebec. 
 
 "We cannot afford to pay $4.00 per day for shovelling 
 coal, and this is having the effec^ of killing our trade with 
 the Cape Breton mines. The discharge of coal here costs 
 twice as much as in Montreal. 
 
 Vessels can be loaded at the outports for 40 to 50 cents 
 per 100 standard, and it costs here 90 cents to |1. 2.5. 
 
 We have for years past annually shipj^ed away from the 
 port, millions of feet of deals and lumber that would have 
 been shipped in the harbor of Quebec, had it not been for 
 the restrictions placed on the shipping by the Ship La- 
 borers' so-called Benevolent Society. 
 
 "We pay our bateau men at the rate of $1.00 per 100 
 standard for lighterage in the port. Our men make $250 
 to $400 in a season. All depends upon the man himself 
 
 Our mill hands wages are about $1.00 per day, and are 
 paid in cash. We protect our men as far as possible, giving 
 them the preference over outsiders. We frequently delay 
 commencing sawing in order to give our drive hands a 
 chance, and stop sawing to let them off to the bush in the 
 fall. 
 
 7th March— By Charles Pentland, Esq., Advocate.— 
 I know nothing more about this shipping business than 
 that in 1882 the law firm of Andrews, C'aron <Sc Andrews, 
 of which I was a junior member, instituted a suit for and 
 on behalf of one Paradis, of St. Komuald, against the Ship 
 Laborers' Society. He had previously been ii member of 
 
 I 
 
ty from 
 
 in load- 
 'es have 
 
 3 or less 
 amend- 
 
 )veJling" 
 [le with 
 *e costs 
 
 cents 
 
 om the 
 d have 
 
 een for 
 lip La- 
 
 •er 100 
 B $250 
 iself. 
 md are 
 giving 
 r delay 
 mds a 
 in the 
 
 cate. — 
 3 than 
 drews, 
 •r and 
 ; Ship 
 ber of 
 
49 
 
 ■fhe Society, "but owing to some trouble which ho had witli 
 some of the members, ho left it. Just about that time he was 
 engaged b]'' the Captain of a bark called the " George G-il- 
 Toy " to watch that vessel. The men who had actually 
 commenced to load this vessel, and \\ ho were members of 
 the Quebec Ship Laborers' Benevolent Society, refused, in 
 compliance with the rules which governed them, to con* 
 tinue working on board the ship. The Captain, in con- 
 sequence, told Paradis that he would ha^ e to discharge 
 him, and he did so. Whereupon i*aradis, acting upon 
 legal advice, instituted an action in the Circuit Court of 
 this District against the Society, and obtained judgment 
 for the damages which he claimed, namely, $32.00. I have 
 here a copy of the judgment which was rendered by His 
 Honor Judge Casault, and with your permission, I will 
 read it. It is contained in Vol. XIII of the Quebec Law 
 Reports. 
 
 No. 1782. 
 
 COUR DE CIRCUIT, QUEBEC 
 Coram Casaui.t, J. 
 
 
 * Paradis vs. La Societe des Ouvriers da bord. 
 
 Per Curiam. — Le demandeur, se disant etre de la societe 
 defenderesse, poursuit en dommages pour lotJ.OO, piix de 
 douze nuits de garde a $3.00, quelle lui a fait perdre en 
 for9ant le patron du navire " George Gilroy," a lui retirer 
 cet emploi qu'il lui avait donne pour tout le temps de son 
 chargement, qui s'est continue pendant douze jours apres 
 le renvoi du demandeur. 
 
 La defenderesse a nie generalement et plaide que le de* 
 mandeur est un epicier et non un journalier ; que, d'apres 
 un regleraent de I'association defenderesse, ceux de ses 
 membres qui ont neglige de prendre leur carte d affiliation 
 s'exposent a toutes les pertes qui en resultent ; que, a I'epo- 
 que oii le demandeur a voulu travailler a bord du dit vais- 
 
r^ 
 
 ■ I 
 
 5cr 
 
 seau, il n'avait pas pris sa carte et qu'il avait neglige de »er 
 conformer aux reglemeiiLs de Fassociation. 
 
 Le demandeur a repondu sp^cialeraeut que, s'il n'avait 
 pas sa carte, c'est parce qu'ou la lui avait refusee sans rai- 
 son. A la preuve, on n'a etabli que par oui-dire que le 
 demandeur avait encouru une amende et n'avait pas droit 
 k sa carte. II a aussi ete prouve que le vaisseau chargeait 
 du bois carr§, qu'il est impossible de se procurer, hors de 
 la " Quebec Ship Laborers' Society," lea hommes comp6- 
 tents pour ee dechargement, et que ceux qui y travaillaient 
 et qui etaient des merabres de ^association, ont refuse de con- 
 tinuer le chargement si le Capitaine n'otait pas au deman- 
 deur la garde de son vaisseau, la nuit. Les officiers de 1 a 
 eompagnie defenderesse ne paraissent pas avoir eu connais- 
 sance de cette circonstance, et ont objecte, de sa part, 
 qu'elle ne pent etre responsable des actes isolees de quel-^ 
 ques-uns de ses otficiers. 
 
 Cette objection aerait pereraptoire si les membres de 
 I'association qui ont insiste sur le renvoi du demandeur, 
 n'avaient pas, par la, obei a un des reglements, le 29ieme. 
 
 Cette penalite est une injonction par la Societe a ses 
 membres de ne pas travailler a bord d'un vaisseau du est 
 employee une personne qui n'appartient pas it I'association. 
 En menacant d'abandonner le vaisseau,^ si le capitaine ne 
 renvoyait pas le demandeur, les membres de I'association 
 mettaient a execution un des articles de ces reglements, et 
 par la agissaient virtuellement, non seulement avec I'autori- 
 sation et la sanction de la eompagnie, mais sur son ordre, et 
 la faisaient responsable, comme si elle eut fait renvoyer le 
 demandeur elle-meme. Et, comme il est etabli que le charge- 
 ment du vaisseau. n'etait pas possible autreraiint que par le» 
 membres de I'association defenderesse, le capitaine ne pou- 
 vait pas resister a cette pression qui etait majeure, et la 
 defenderesse est aussi directement responsable du renvoi 
 du demandeur qui si elle I'eut renvoyee elle-meme par 
 force. 
 
 4 
 
-n^^^^ 
 
51 
 
 La compa^nie defenderesse est une association do bien- 
 veillaiu-e dont le but est d'assister les families de ceux de ses 
 membres que. leur maladie ou leur mort a mis dans I'indi- 
 gence et d'assister ses membres meme,s. L'acte, qui I'incor- 
 pore, 25 V., c. 98, ne Tautorise a faire des ro-lements que 
 pour cetobjet ; ettous ceux de ses recvlements qui tendenta 
 reg-ler le travail et a en lixer le prix, soiit ultra vires, ilL'-o-aux 
 et nuls. U n nombre de ces regies iliejrules sont les regies 23 
 a 41 inclusiveinent, 54, 56 a 61, G3 a 67, 69 a 70. 
 
 Jugement pour $36.00, avec interet et depens. 
 
 Andrews, Caron, Andrews & Pentland, pour le deman- 
 deur. 
 
 Fitzpatrick, pour la del'enderesse. 
 
 I have no practical knowledge of the shipping trade. I 
 cannot say, from experience, that the Ship Laborers' So- 
 ciety's rules are arbitrary, but I consider that no rules 
 which have been declared by the Court to be illegal should 
 be allowed to exist. These rules are contrary lotheir Act 
 of Incorporation. Of course, if their charter were so amend- 
 ed as to cover those rules they would not be illeo-al. 
 
 ■H 
 
 f 
 
 In addition to the foregoing testimony given before the 
 Royal Labor Commission, is here given copies of letters 
 received since from leading Exportmg Merchants : 
 
 1st June, 1888. 
 
 "1st.— As regards the relative cost of loading steamers or 
 " sailing ships here and in Montreal, or points on the St. 
 " Lawrence, we can to-day contract to load at these places 
 " at 80c. per standard, in Quebec we cannot contract under 
 " .$L05 to $1.25. 
 
 " 2nd. — We have sent several barge loads of timber from 
 " Quebec to Montreal, to be loaded in steamers there, be. 
 
 '0 
 
 ''^ 
 
62 
 
 cause the shi]) laborers will not allow steamers to use their 
 steam winches in Quebec. We are to-da}' loading a further 
 quantity, the cost is '3c. p. it., or equal to about 6s. p. load. 
 " We have eiigao-ed to load in Montreal over 2,000 loads ; 
 this could all be loaded here only ibr this prohil)ition. 
 
 " ord — A <'ase of great hardship is when vessels have to 
 load part timber and (ill up with deals, a new by-law of 
 the .stevedores enacts, that the rate must be 70c. p. load 
 all round. This is e([ual to $2.10 p. std. in the deals, as 
 against SOc. in Montreal and other places. 
 
 '• 4th. — Several Foreign ships would load with their own 
 crews if they could only be sure of proper protection ; not 
 being able to get this, they will not charter for Quebec 
 but will load at other points. 
 
 " We have had cables from London, advising us, that 
 they can charter for Montreal lauding or any other landing 
 place other than Quebec, 
 
 " Our tonnage is therefore falling off and all interests are 
 
 sult'ering." 
 
 6th June. 
 
 " Since the evidence was taken by the Labor Commission 
 in regard to the inliuence of the ship laborers' organization 
 on the tim])er trade of the Port of Quebec, numerous in- 
 stances have arisen, and are of almost daily occurrence, 
 which prove clearly that the enibrcement of the present 
 rules of the Society are operating very disastrously against 
 the business of the Port, and are elfectually driving away 
 a large portion of our trade to Montreal and elsewhere, 
 which, under other conditions, might be more advantage- 
 ously done in Quebec. For instance, our own house have 
 been compelled this spring to arrange for the shipment of 
 over 3,000 tons of square timber by steamer in Montreal, a 
 large portion of which timber has to be sent from Quebec 
 in barges to Montreal at a heavy cost to us, and which 
 might all be shipped to greater advantage in Quebec were 
 
68 
 
 - it not for the rules of tho Society prohibitino. .toamurs 
 trom iiMiln- th<.ir sto.m winches, a restrict urn which does 
 " not, exist in Montreal, or any other port that we are ac- 
 " qnainted with. 
 
 " This rule prevents steamers commu to load mixed car- 
 r goos in Quebec, and w*- are .'xery we<"k receiving from 
 " Eag-hmd offers of steamers to load in M<.ntreal but Ihey 
 " positively refuse to lake such caro-oes in Quebec. We 
 '• have, in consequence, charternd n lari?,. stoanier for four 
 '' consecutive voyag-es to load timber m Montreal, whereas 
 " the owners positively refuse to allow her lo come to Que- 
 " bee. 
 
 *' The owners of anothei- larg^^ steamer coming out to 
 " carry square timber have authorized us to seud^it up to 
 " Montreal rather than to allow their steamer to take it in 
 " at Quebec under existing rules of the Ship Laborers' So- 
 *' ciety. 
 
 " The Allan steamers are regulfirly carrying square tim- 
 " ber for us from Montreal, but positively retuse to take a 
 " single piece in at Quebec. Other merchants in the trade 
 " are sutfering in a similar manner. 
 
 " These are only a lew instances which illustrate the 
 " damage that is being done to our trad.' under existing re- 
 *' gulations of the Society, and we think the position calls 
 " for prompt redress, or we shall never get back the trade 
 " that is now being forced from us. 
 
 " The whole respectfully submitted." 
 
 By order, 
 
 F. H. ANDUIlWS, 
 
 Office of the ^'''''''^' 
 
 Quebec Board of Trade, 
 30th June. 1888. 
 
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