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Les diagrammes suivants lllustrent la mtthode. 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 '-!?;■• •},«s??15ii- ^^-TpiWfWWi,- (Dldi E^pot or THE n Confere ~t°, t^«»»9'" ovulation of other countriei. and at the same time fcenefit Great Bmain by '"g^'"!'-*.*^?™, Sepenu^nce upon foreign countries for her food supplies, and with that view «be Prime M^»«^»| aS^a is h^T requested to urK". *t the Imperial Conference, the securing of a roysJ commisrion co^SS^^t^Swei fnS Great Brit^ and «be ColoWes to invest^ale condmons and^o suggStsuch pnferential treatment of imports from the various pa... of the Empire as shaU be beat calculated to ensure the fullest benefits. RESOLUTION NO. a. a. well «*from ^tlS-' coumri« "" ^'"^ "" ""^ ''"'' °° •«'"="'«''™1 Produc from her Colonie.. the Emj.lreT*""" "" '"'"'''°« "^ °' '*" C"'""'- '" "» »»«»' •"<» »»•• mean, of .trength«,log product, imported ^ CanadaSt^^^-^o.^S^I^S.-^^^^^^^ I RESOLUTION NO. a Conferf„re'd;1i;^^1l^^t"';;efcS7etL^' "o'S'^S^i"^ °' ^rJI'? ''°°1» ^'» ^an^H^ ports, thl. United state, ports shall h,^\iSto2s^Jm.'^'^ '^''*' ^""" °"" Britain artving by IMPORTATION OP CANADIAN CATTLE TO GREAT BRITAIN are or.h^'S^n^hSl^'h^'^o'SS^'p:^^^^^^^ ">« ^-<»lon of Canada :^*;^rth^;;n?oVta°tLTar„"^^^^ .on preiudicially affect. C^i'^ll^l'^T.^.T^i^o^.^'^^^^^r.Zn'^^r^^^^ STATE CABLE PROM CANADA TO AUSTRALIA and ch«;Srfnie^„'rll ta.weln%n';L^Tf7h%°1m^^^^^ "^ n^nt^ning the f«e« «tablishi'S^ a state-owned cablVfromCMad. to A^S»!h^^^^^ """'"" '^' P^^'^r adopted in in order that there may be a complete^5re1f'^°HU,ru{t ownt' «b^"ro"„n«ft'" """'"''"• COMMERCIAL DEPOT IN LONDON. ENGLAND. «^liest''o^Ibttil'e'^J\'V«^^^^^ ^»"' «- -"-le at the the establishment in that city of a dSwt ^Sf/inn nL-^'J'°'"'TV^ ^*°*^» '■» London, by their head a man of coraprehenSve k^ljLafcl^°AiF^'^f °''".^y t"""" ^''P'"* h'-^ving at the enterprise being tbe^crau^o{c7«^'iln,^T^^° products, the whole purpo^and scopi of dir«:tion ^of the attfnifon of^f^'pie'^SJ^i'^^^h i,^';^^^'''^ ^f P'™/"^^"°^ "'^'he both as to emigration and investi^t '° "" products and capacities of Canada CONSULAR AOENCIE& urgent IhaUhe^idValto'v^rVmtjM^^ -}?. foreign countries, it is of the old and new world ■ "^ ' commercial agenu residing in the principal cities ducinglSem" to^hi ?eaL'g°commi;^iXm,iy,S:i? l^tv^^? 1° T' ?"{.""«« «»• «'•>« "^ -'- tion to the Honorable Mili,ter of Trade ™d CommerS '^ '' f""'»'»°8 ""o" valuable inforraa- govern|;;l;rhf4'ent?a';rnt^^ PAST STEAMSHIP SERVICE. Rtiolvtd: That the establishment of a Fast Atlantir <;>^»..i.:- t • r prt in Great Britain would assist trade in the DomS wo!S?f " ^'°' f™"" • Canadian port to a iLs^'turgiran'-e.uiitt^^^^^^ continental Railwfy, bindThW:?e^^&'„^:"5\°be^|^^ «^^^^^ o' our Tr^Ts" •■H such importwce to Canada and the Empire. STEAMSHIP 8BHVICB FROM CANADIAN PORTS B A ■«»» » African trouble and the consequent opening up In view of the recent settlement of '^^ S°uth Atncw. uo^ shipping heavy goods of the country, as well ^^?^?^M^.tSSVre,ident.- fohn 'SSe! E^q!. ex- 1 resident. - WiUi.m Prestor._E8q. St. Stephens, . _ ^ E. C oom, Esq., President. ^ A. I. leed, Esq. ^ St. Thomas Board of Trade J. W. Stewart, Esq., President. *«• W H. King, Esq., Secretary. ^ t Vice- second iry. I II Dis- Vice- Tradb Trade er. sident. W. H. Meldrun, Esq. Petrolia Board of Trade F. W. Wilson, Esq., Secretary. ». Port Arthur Board of Trade D. F. Burk4. Esq. • James Coniftee, Esq., M.P.P Po* tage la Prairie Board of Trade D. A. McDonald, Esq. Quebec Board of Trade George Taaquay, Esq., U.F.i., President. D. J. Rattray, Esq. « G- E. Amyot, Es^ ^ P. B. Dumoulin, Esq. «» Rossland, B.C., Bou>d of Trade R. S. Goodeve, Esq. ^ Sault Ste. Marie Board of Trade I W. J. Thomson, Esq. ^ John Dawson, Esq. «^ W. H. Plummer. Esq. ^ R. H. Knight, Esq. i.^ John McKay, Esq. ^ }. Collins, Esq. S. George Stone, Esq., Secretary. Sherbroolce, Que., Board of Trade tM. Dufresne, Esq. . A. Bayley, Esq. ^ Smith's Falls Board of Trade R. \V. Steacy, Esq. "^ Sorel, P. Q., Chamber of Commerce J. A. Proulx, Esq., President. C. O. Paradis, Esq., Mayor of Sorel, Que. Southampton Board of Trade T. H. Burns, Esq. ^ ^ St. Catharines Board Of Trade « Robt. McLaren, Esq., President. ■* J. P. Mclntyre, Esq., Mayor. • T)r. L. S. Oille. yP , A. Case, Esq. St. Hyacinthe, P.Q., Board of Trade J. N. Dubrule, Esq. A. B. Blondin, Esq. S. T. Duclos, Esq. St. John, N.B., Board cf Trade W. M. Jarvis, Esq., President. George Robertson, Esq. W. Frank Hatheway, Esq. W. J. Ferguson, Esq. Strathroy Board of Trade D. Gillies, Esq., President. -^ Thprold Board of Trade D. B. Crombie, Esq., President. ^ Jas. Battle, Esq., Secretary. ^ Leslie McMann, Esq., Mftyor of Thorold. Thonias Conlon, Erq. ^j. Three Rivers, Que., Board of ""^^de Jacqu« fi'St Conference of Boards bf Trade of the JiZn f^r ^ '"'*• "f^ ?' "■ '^'■""^'y '>°P«'> ">«' g°^ will come of it. The sie fereS ^ P^t^riTZ^ ^'^'"''V'''''''-^'' '°^'''^'^° ^'"^ the com "gaol ♦« ^ k 1^ • ? "1°' *?" different countries composing the British Emoire to be held in London after th^ Coronation. In Addition, however to con s" ould't^ toTlo'^tf °« *'* ^T" «»°«'^"y' •* was'fehThT;dl°an uge interSt to Sn-nf XK ^"' * gathering to discuss questions of internal rJS Canada. The great development which has been eoine on in Pht ?«' r°'! P"'>cu arly during the last three or four years, has broueh^ tr.^?^TZ '° !, -r'"? r''"* •* ^I'oo'd t«ke careful st^k of both h5 SS f '"*?*^'*''P!?'"'*8*'*°** responsibilities as a partner in the greates? Empire of ancient or modern times. I have no desire to indulee in anv -xtr-vf &rth?cradfhaf'°"" °' '''' K^"''l^ ^'"P'- It -afprVr?? be'Td." she cSu S Thi« ho "vlf""""" '° H""^ ^" ^«»^ '^^"se of^the position which burs^of sSed In the oart^f^tlT.' ""'^V""°« *^'' '?^' ^'^^ y'^"- an^'tonishing Britain h« t^mi? f? i ^' magnificenr nation ust south of us, while Great The United Sta^«hn '°^ .^"P^e^acy in first one direction and then in another are lack nf tn^'r r.Z%"' ^" ^i °°' ^^" ^^^ ^°"° -^y- «'<='"«">ts °^ success which of the Brhfsh Emn.vrcK^if'fl"- J'""^?*'"'' therefore, in order that the position Serifv wh ch afean »v,^r li'^'"r**'°'^ ^^'^ advanced, that the elements ^pros- ^H ,ho^ h- e J 7'.''*^'5 '? '*'^K*' measure, shall be recognized, shall be studied ?he couiriLfeYt^^^ '•'*" •^ i°telligent%o.oiUration amongsl In fh,°c r f "Uteres ed. I believe that no one expects that the delegates have come iave emp°SVran7bu? ttH^ 1 ""^^ *,° *"^" ^^'°«^ "P"'^^ doln an5 tryin^o nave employed any but methods of natural evolution. I take it however that th» meTh^ iT^v' °^ ?"!.*='' an influential body means that you consTder that Je £ KL St 5o?o d"^f7" W'rV' °°' *°.^'^'''^ 'i*^'' '^^^'^™' »"d That nowada^ th^ thi hnVht«t "^ ^k"*L ^'I'^'V^. ?'^ underiying this assemblage the feeling Brita n ,nH fhi «1''^^ u^'''^ ^^^ ^"""'^ E"P''« w'" I^ave. will be when Greaf that^nif ^ ^ *''*'■ ^''^-gove'-ning countries of the Empire a 1 combine in realizing ^n-ow haf h«n **'5;^'°f' °/.°f a warfare so fierce and attended with such universal t^^^ nnhil h «=e'ebrated m no empty spirit of triumph but rather in accord wfth those noble hymns which have everywhere been sung. •' God Savp the KinI "TnH " Praise God from Whom all Blessings Flow." ^' *"*^ H«ii,?n°»1°' **""'' '^*' *°y apology is necessary for this assemblage. We are not designing to usurp, in any sense, the functions of Pariiament The airni, fhtt fl will be occunied in dealing with them. There are. however, several questionB of the r ^st^mwrtance about which opinion has not yet solidified, and it « particularly P J.?^^^th th^ that a profitable result is anticipated. We have passed Ae aw^hen S^^le a« Ifraid tHScuss vital questions. If tb, v;hole people can SiTucedtoSer thoughtfully any problem, the probability is that .ght will *^°'"\nVnn« that the Boer war has got " off the nerves " of the British nation it rray no? b°roi miicJ^o ho^ tha' .^Ltion will be earnestly f -t«J t°E™oire' a nr«Lrvation and extension of commerce and industry ttaroughout the Empire— a fask S°nt Is oice entered upon, will be pursued with the dodged de'"";°K° of the British race. This Conference wi.l not have been in yam if it shall have conUibuted even in the slightest degree tc the arousing of a sp.nt of patient mvesti- Son of conditions and ofdetermination to grap. e with them to conclusion. ^ I desire to take advantage of this opportuniiy to express the obligation which the Conference ij u=dpr to the Hon. G. W. feoss. Premier of the Province of Ontario for having placed rhis splendid chamber at the disposa of the Conference. S^"g iha Mr Ross was kind enough to ask us to his house it might possibly be Sfl to indicate that we are glad to find him at home while we are heje bat as ?he recent struggle in Ontario i^litics has been severe and tension has, i b,,iieve. norSybeilf relieved, we must, I suppose, be ver> careful not to express a nreference involving any embarrassment. ■ c .. __ *^ P I do no? know whether the result of this Conference will be so satisfactory as to suMest that it be repeated from time to time. This gathermg *'» h^ve the Idvantagrin any caseVof letting us get acquainted with each ot^er and we sha 1 be able to realize better than we have been, the personalities beh nd the communi- cations which from time to time our boards have with one anoth- r. The Board of Trade of the city of Toronto is highly gratified at the wide response whfch has been made to ts invitation to be present at this fi.st Conference of Ks of Trade of the Domin-" >;. . We have only a two days' session, and but a sho^ me°s avaUable for we'coming you. Accordingly it has not In^n thought advisable to ask a number of distinguished gentlemen to »dd««« ];«" = /° J^l*' without further formality, 1 'lave now the pleasure to Pve you. on ff^h^'f °*^he Toronto Board, the very > tiest welcome to the c.ty, and to state that we hope that your visit will be nof Jiily profitable but enjoyaole. Mr. McFee, President of the Montreal Board of Trade-I rise to P"^;™ a very pleasant du y. and I am sure every member of this conference will second EtUv the motion which I will now make. I move that the President of he Kd of TrSot the city of Toronto, Mr. A. E. Ames, shall preside at the meetings of this Conference. The motion was carried with applause. President AMES-Mr. McFee and gentlemen. I *|" ,^"" ^..^^nrifidrat Si most cordially appreciate your kmdness m suggesting ^^at I shall preside at the Conference. I accept the responsibility which has been laid upon me with some tremo ! wUh a most complete ^nse of the unfitness of your appointment but with he simple determination to do what I can to help matters along. In taking the chair it may not be out of place just to suggest a few consideranons. The Toronto Board of Trade took upon itself the responsibility of asking the members of the Boards of Trade all over the country to send a representation here to this Conference. This be ng the firsrcolrenceof^hekind it s«^med necessary that the Toronto Board Jould take upon itself some considerable responsibility in suggesting be methods of conduct- ing the Conference. We felt it would not do to get us all here and spend a day in considering ways and means, so that we took "P*"* °"'«'^^^ ."^'*"7 DOwers with the hope that you would endorse what we have done in that respect. Tpe so^Uy wasUewh^at apprehensive as to whether you would accord this liberty to the Toronto Board of Trade, but lookirg around, as 1 do, at the gS^-Ltured faces which are before me. I am sure you "^^^^^^'^^^^^'^ 'i^.''°l[ tive position in w: =-.h the Board of Trade is placed on this account, and that you w°lllive your endorsation in blank to anything which the Managing '4 Committee of the Toronto Board of Trade, under the abJe ch.irman.hip of was°h:rwe%houlV£LT ^°'" '^^5f *«'«°". ^ut the feeling of the ^ToronTo BcS^d cihiiif K ^ 5°T ^*^® *^ ^°^'^ business men, with a heavy feehns of resoon That the printed rules of procedure be adopted, as follows • " '''llhTp^sfdi'n^ffileT"'''"'"*''''""^ "'"•^ shllhandln duplicate copies .her«,f .o '■ '1.= rha:roV;Jo".f""^''°°*""P"""""«'''«' -°«Bo.rds;e«:hdelegate 0. No delegate shall speak except to a resolution. Mr. Perraijlt, Gaspe Board of Trade-I see, according to Rule ± dele.ratP« are to vote as individuals, not as representing their various Boards aI thl fnn ference of the London Chambers of Commfrce. wher^I had the honor of £f„; }orTca TZTsot^r^ry' "^"^^ ^°r^ ^^°'" ' distance we.e%iredt':"tf or eaca ot their Boards. I happened to be there representating three Boards of the Provnce of Quebec, and I was put on the official list as fepreLntine those would like to know your ruling upon that question, Mr. President' ^ IB in 15 PKES.OENT A«.-In reply ^\^^^l,i^:i SLl^^^ZnVlrl T-e'^'who gentlemen, and 'be only gentlemen th.^c.nhe«^^^^^^ ««""„^'^!.f;"d\^ ,he work of Trade and its grasp of ^^^bjects not generaUy ''°^^^^[f^,'^^'^^S^,ior. that the one particular city or town. It has Uen to me a great source o | ^^^^ fg,^ Board of Trade of Toronto has not only dealt with tjadeq esuo^^.^^^^ ^^^ the importance of questions that to °t^«« ^^^^ha^in a discussion which has nected with trade, for instance, we all remetnoer "JfJ^ •" . .j^j^j j^e Toronto been somewhat warm.in 0"'*"° ' VthTthTwaT^otCy a ^^^^^^^ Board of Trade was wise enough to see that^at was nat^ J^^.^^^ 4^ which we could differ, but 7** ",'**?, .^'^a-j they have also taken a stand which it was proper they should deal .^'^J'^^'ft^t^e country, in appointing an which I think has been of very much >™PO/»«°" *° a commi"e« to c^sider^nd important and permanent committee on «J"" *°°^„*d*fj"k^p the Board of Trade report at all times on the education of the country a^d Joj^eep tj^^lars in touch with that education. It seems to "« that in these ana f^^^^^ ^^ which I might mention, the Toronto Board of Trade has sno ^^ ^^ ^ thought with which we might all be /^^o^^". 7;"%^°"'"^ °n t':=- business of the the first of many to which the different men who "^"^f f^^, J jnjons regarding country are to be called together to consult and express ^^J^*^ "Pj ^ j l^^^ ^l trade and questions more directly connected with trade, l ne resomuo i6 post^e on nJw.i»i?lSi«^i3 !r;?'\°' ^"•f'*' G"«« Bri.idn and th. Empire. th« em Jy^n ' h^"s"^:itl^n"l'LolXt^^^^^ ' '''"'' \*°l"'^ ''»^« ''*«•' *»• 'o rest of the Empire We all kSow of thj i^ ^ P°-'"«f »houd be embraced by the cals of the friendly nation to the S^u h fn^^T '="'="'«"°'> '" Canada of period!- dent for our ideas and nformat^ol^^^nth-^"'*'' .'** "° '°° """=*" """ch^open- reports generally. E verySThereTm^.cIf il"Jf °" -'V '"''^!;^*""' "-^spapers and state of progress and th««^LY I- .'""<^n,'«^"«r informed as to the ideals, the the British KnTh: ?St ion wh Tr °h '^\t'T '° ^"^ ''°""' ^^^ "» '^an of that a movement should be madrnord«r Ih^^^ *''• *'°u"°' '° ?°^'= » *« '»"» «ff~t papers and journals and maMzi^,^? i ''^I^J^^i ''*^« * '^f»«' interchange of President AwEs-The next question for consideration is : TRADE RELATIONS WITHIN THE EMPIRE Mr G?o" E°°n».!^ ^''^''*^ ^y '^'^ ^J^"'"*' Bo"d of Trade. -of^^^.{>^S=^---..Tra^ ^""i^^^'.^^r^r.tr^ ^wlS'.SS.?rir °( ^'"■"''•" °^ '^-'"- oi .he of tbe stroDfest^Iinki in^e na7S.«l u^tl t^id ,W ^ **'^"? commercial bond is one towards consummating ^ch an l!J^T,SLnt'- ~"' P"^""' ""P* »'"""'* '^ «»''«° ally required by tbe firitish consut^er ""' '"'"•^' '" °' *"«»> "« "n"""" "*'"'th'e :^-j^ 'Etsty"^e?„i' °hV5Jodt"l°of 'Sr ^r ^'^'*'° -- -- '-" markets as against tbe products^f ?n Ji„„^„ . "••l" colonies a preference in her ence would ftimulare tffand dev^Coloni^f^;,;!^'''^ believed^hat such prefer^ make the Colonies attract! ve. not on Wt^heW *'"« '° ing annually from tbe British Isl« but J^ !n T. °^^"'"'' '"i^'J*" «'»*8^«- countries, and at the same timi S-Jfi.V .^ **" surplus population of other dependence upoSfo,^Uc"un!n^%o'^"htfSd~su?p7r "^ '"^''^ "-*"« "er from menltn'h?y'Ip'"rtlhei^^^^^^^ the minds of the Montreal business of loyalty to tLTothS Countrf hL^ *'*'°° 'i?'^ ■^'^""''^ "''^ resolution was one measure^owever impo tant to^a cdonT'.h',f"'" m'"^''^'"^' ^^ '«" '^^' ^^V Empire's heart would KtablvresuIMnw^t!^-'^^^^^^ 'u ,"?. ^^X weaken the (Hear, hear.) We felt s^r thL we nrL f. k'"!?! *^^ ^^1°'^ Empire's structure. »7 rent Mfety and loUdarity of the Empire as no other trade meaiure could under fk- rnnHiiioB. existinK today. We are frank, sir, to aay. as business men. SitTe Seve a?w ihatT. .ureat and safest basis upon which to build a nat^n iV that of mutual interests-we have no hesitation in saying that- tnd fhefefore. we feel bold to believe that in the discussion we shall have S«e odav we shall not be misunderstood when we discuss fully and frankliStw^ ourselves what we think is best for the Empire o which iL nroud to belonK. I think every man in this room will agree :Uhme^ that the q"^^^^^^ of Canada^ loyalty and the loyalty of The Co^oniea to the Smpire cannot be questioned at this late date. Hear hearr Sir. we are standing to-day with a new n« .al life in Canada, and le f"e it and we all know it, and we are here to confer v.th regard to it. The war ^S^uth Africa has drawn the Mother Country and her Colonics together >n *way which years of Parliamentary debate would not have accomplished. The blood of her wns has set an imperial 4al on Greater Britain that will ever hereafter, I hope, remind the Imperial authorities and Legislatures of the Colonies that no great measure of national importance can be again discussed without taking into con- dderatSn the welfare of the whole g^npire. That, I believe is tlie position to-dav. We ought to consider the economical conditions as they exist, and see what^ii best to bl done to bring the Mother Country and her Colonies together So one strong Empire that will last forever. In 1845 when Cobden and his friends carried their policy in England, and the Corn Laws were abolished. Enjfland's great commercial rivals were comparatively unknown in the markets of the world. The United States at that time held a very insignificant position out- ide of her own borders, and even wiihin her borders she was sti» a large consumer cf British products, and at that time it might well have been thought in England that the law of interchange of commodities was such that it would pay Eng.and to admit the products of the United States free of duty. The Imperial Germany that we know to-dav was yet in the land of dreams. The relative ■ uon to-day is very different indeed. Perhaps I could best describe it by quoting >, am a speech delivered by the Colonial Secretary of England, in which he said : '« We have to contend with commercial rivalry more serious than anything we have vet encountered, the pressure of hostile tariffs, the pressure of bounties, the pressure of subsidies, all adopted by countries which at all events are very prosper- ous themselves, and that have the intention of shutting out Great Britain as far as possible from all profitable trade with foreign States, and at the same time to enable the foreign States to undersell us in our own markets." . u • That is Mr. Chamberiain's statement with regard to the position, and he is absolutely correct, and the vop'' -■ that England has not grappled with this question before now. Why, si. de was simply a policy in 1845. and it is simply a policy to-day, not a . principle, not a religion, but we know with some of our English friends on -e other side of the Atlantic sometime, old ideas and antiquated policies become so ingrained in their minds that they look upon them as sacred principles. Free trade is not a sacred principle, it is simply a policy. You, as business men, know what is going on under fre- uide in England, and we all know what has taken place in the United States undc. protection. We know that in the United States very large financial and industrial enterprises have been built up, and New York to-day stands with London as the financial center of the world. Surely our friends in England must some day begin to think they cannot always be right and the other fellow always wrong ; surely they will begin to think that the best way of teaching the world the benefits of free trade is to give thr a a dose of their own medicine, and see how they like it. Perhaps the greatest dai-ger our Mother Country has to deal with is the question of her food supply, bhe is almost absolutely dependent upon her commercial and pohtical rivals lor the daily food of her people. Is that a position she ought to iuld? In iQoo Great Britain imported foodstuffs to the total value of over $1,715,000,000, of which m per cent, came from foreign and nval nations, and only i6| per cent, from all of the Colonies combined. Canada s pro- portion was 9i per cent., or 167.230-4/9. and the United States, commercially i8 unfriendly though the U. «t exhibited bv the tariff ehe placed i««init En?^*"^"^ aenintt Canada! .uppHed 44 per cent, of the food etuffe required to keep the peop e of the British leland. aliveVor »3'4.«o6.2^8. I maybe P«'?>*»!«<» •'.'[•J°„r' ! Martton'. " War. Famine and Food Supply^' Mr. Maraton. who it well known m London as a publisher and writer, and has perhaps taken ""O" '"t""| in this question of food supply than any man «n England, estimated that Great Britain had never more than a precaraous weeks supply of «ood in ^e country. His greatest critics, including Mr. W. o. Bear, the eminent agricultmaf authority, said he is all wrong, that the country can depend upon havins a food supply good for nine weeks* consumption. No . -uder. Mr. Marston says. " In whatever light we look at it there can be no question as to not merely the advisability but the necessity of removing our last and most vitalline of defence-our food supplies-from the control of America and Russia to our o_wn absolute control." Can anyone gainsay the truth of what Mr. Marston has sa d? If. Sir. the territory controlled by Great Britain were hmited to the British Isles. then BWtona might well fold their hands and say. " We cannot heh, >t.. the position is theirs, we must exist and continue to exist by the grace of Russia. America, Germany. France, Holland and Denmark, from whom we get o«r»o?d sup- plies." But. thank Heaven, by our ancestors and by t^« «"" °' 9°?,' •!'• Have a more goodly heritage. Canada. Australia. New Zealand. Ind»a, South Africa, and many fnother spot colored red on the rnap of the G tebe h»ye 'oom enough and arable la^s enough, and are British enough-Bntish as the Isles themwlves— to supply the Mother Country with her wants All we ask is htr England give u. a preferential arrangement in her market, that will give her a chance to send her overflow population to the wide fields of the Cana- dian North-West, to Australia, and other portions ol the Fmpire, to find profitable employment in raising the food supply that will guarantee to he Mother Country that she wiU never have to depend upon foreign nations. I think fifteen years from now that could be accomplished, if they would give us this pre- ferential arrangement to-day. and there never was a time more 0PP°""°»/°y^^J";** Britain to move in the matter. I was glad to see yesterday the statement rnade by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the duty of threepence per hundredweight should remain on grain in England. Let it remain for two years sir, and England will learn that after all it won't matter so much as regards the cost of bread. 1 hat has been the great argument, but threepence per hundredweight amounts to one- eighth penny on a loaf of bread, and many times you will learn from Practical rnen in the business that two shillings per quarter of an advance has not "'sedjh" P"« of bread in England. The whole thing is regulated, as the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer said the other day by the matter of supply and demand. Bread has risen within .ne last few weeks in England because there was a shortage in the foreign crop of the United States, and maize and everything else has gone up m England, but the threepence duty would not have changed the price of itself. Now, the oppor- tunity comeffor England to fall in with the logic of the free traders of the Manchester School, and say, " We will oppose this duty, but we will give you 162/3 per cent, at present ; we will have a growing quantity each year of Colonial grown food- stufTs free '• That is along the line of free-trade logic, and at the same time is along the line of a logic that we, as Canadians, feel will make the Empire absolutely ndependent in this matter of food supplies. How is Canada placed to take her part in regard to this food supply ? We Canadians sometimes forget that we own r^S than^one-half of the wheat^- growing lands of the North- American Con- tinent, not over one-eighth of that is yet occupied, and perhaps not oyer one-half of tha one eighth is under crop, and yet last year, sir S^.ooo Canadian farmers raised oo.ooorooo bushels of wheat, and had 45,000,000 bushels of wheat for export. Great Britain uses of wheat in the average 170,000.000 bushels a year ; give us a preference in her market, and the wheat will be where we have put the cheese m t fast few years from Canadian sources. (Applause). 125,000 Csnanian ta™"s ^■'. enable us to supply Great Britain with her wheat, and 1 have it on the au.horil our wheat men we will in many portions yet grow corn advantageously. They . .e moving further north from the United States, and I am glad to see so many Amen- I I I .1 i '9 c-.. farmer, coming to ihi« land: they make very good Britiih lubjectt (He«r, Slir\t^ei know .good thing when ther lee it. they know there is no country m fh? wir d t^hat SIitr.T^e the libertie. ofpeople » Britain pararitee. them, they knorthey c"1Se.t their money in C.nad. under Briti.^ .nHt.tutjoo.. and ha mon^v will be safe, and they will be coming over here and they will occupy that SrUory in the North- Wett. but one would like to see «,me .eitleri coinmg over. That ia the «»ition Canada it in with regard to wheat, and I hope it will be wtth Jeilrd to coK^ The midland, of CanadS and the We.t will take care of a portion Karingly to, of the dairy product, of Canada, and w.th thi. increaM in .hipments f?om Canada, mu.t neceUa^ly come the »»«"«/" t°'''« «";• side world— all the way from free trade to very high protection, and all the inler- mediate stages. Is there any other country upon the fa-e of the earth where the Mme thing Ixists? 1 think not. No great Empire, no fff' »''»«» »Xr«t in the woild exists to-day with each individual part of it having a different tariff or a different arrangement with regard to imports and exports from foreign countries. The British Empire alone is the example of this, and we contend that that has not been a strength to her commercially, and it is not r strength to her commercially to-day. I look upon it as a necessity, if the Empire is io continue as it is to-day, with all its component pa/ts, that within a very few years a general system of trade must be inaugurated between Grea Britain and all her colonies that will have mutual advantages to each. We are frequently charged with being selfish, that we are looking for '»™e»*'>"« ™[ °"J- selves, but knowing well the conviction on this question of the gentlemen that have been at the back of it for several years, I believe that there are no more disinterested men in this country, or in any country, than those gentlemen who are laboring to forward this object. I believe they are laboring m what they believe the best inter- ests of the British Empire. I for one wish to speak from that broad standpoint not for Toronto, not for Ontario, nor yet for the Dominion of Canada, but for the whole Empire. I think we may say that we desire that a mutual bond ol trade, material interests, should bind the various component parts of this Empire together. We. Sir, know that various questions have arisen in the Old Country recently, and there are a great many questionings now with regard to the wisdom of tree trade. This indeed has been the great policy of Britain in the past, but is it bringing to her to-day all that it brought in the pas* ? Is it as satvifactory to- day as it has been in the past? I trow not. Look at her traHe returns, look at the importations last year from the United States alone, look at t..e importations from Germany and from the various countries of Europe, a vast aggregation ot upwards of /Tioo.ooo.ooo has been imported of manufactured goods into Great Britain. Is that not telling a tale upon the British workman ? Is that why he should kick at putting a half-penny on each loaf, if necessary, in order that 30 the tood supply may be benefited, that the food supply of all the Empire may be brought from British sources, and not from foreign countries ? Or is it any reason why you should not go forward and say that no goods shall enter into Great Britain or her Colonies without paying a certain tax if they see it is for the good of the Empire to do so ? We believe that free trade is wanting in the Old Country. We have said for years it was a necessity. I for one have said this over there, and 1 say it here fearlessly, that I believe within ten or fifteen years Great Britain herself will need the policy that is proposed in this resolution more than Canada needs it to-day. I believe she needs it as much to-day as we do. We are getting on very well, and are not looking for anything particularly for ourselves in this, but I contend it will be a great advantage to the British Empire herself, and Great Britain particularly, to adopt the course suggested here. We talk about the open door— that is a question that has come to the front recently— it is a new name for free trade. We dwellers in the North think,— and I believe a large majority of both parties think — that doors are for the protection of the people inside the house and not for the convenience of the people on the outside ot the house (hear, hear), and that it is for the dweller in that house to say whether or not that door shall be opened, or whether it shall be closed. If we look at it in this way we will see that in winter the dwellers in the north have to protect themselves against a rigorous Canadian winter, and it is for the people inside to say whether that house is too cold or too warm, and it is proper and right to say whether or not Great Britain's doors shall be opened to all the countries of the world or whether she will levy on them a taxation necessary for her own interests, and in the interests of those that support her. That is the position with regard to Great Britain. We have an immense territory, a territory that embraces all races, all climes, we can produce in the British Empire every requisite for the greatest nation the world has ever seen ; why should we not be supplying these things from the various parts of the British Empire ? With regard to trade, we have pursued a policy of drift, and have had no uniform procedure. We have seen it exemplified, that when a war comes we are one ; we sent our men from every part of the Empire to die upon the same battlefield in the same cause ; we have one flag floating over us ; we have one King reigning over us, and we acknowledge one allegiance to one King ; but when it comes to matters of trade, we are no longer members of the same family, but everyone going on a different road, and in some cases an antagonistic road to the general interests of the family. Is that as it should be ? I think not. Manchester, when we went over to the last Congress, moved a resolution, and what was it ? It was, that no matter what was done on this subject the principle should be recognized that Great Britain should be allowed to buy in the cheapest markets. Can any great nation or any great power be ever built upon so narrow a policy as that ? I say not. Pursue it in your own business and look how it would work. Let any man who is in business, say to his wife, " There is a bargain day at so-and- so's shop to-day, he is selling goods a great deal cheaper than I can, take your trade to him and go by me." Look what you would put in the mouth of your opponents; that man who is running that cheap bargain counter says, " You are not going to trade with so-and-so, here is his wife buying goods from me to-day; would she do that if I were not able to sell things cheaper than he is ?" You are putting the same argument into the British blue books, and I have told Englishmen that their blue books are their greatest condemnation. Let Americans or Germans go to South Africa or Australia with that argument in their hands, and I say it is perfectly irresistible. Let them refer the Colonials to the British blue book to see how much of agricultural implements, how much of iron and steel and of all the products of commerce are being imported from their outside adversaries in trade, and there is an irresistible argument put which no Briton can safely answer. You cannot afford to say th?t the cheapest market is at all times the true market to go to. How is it going to affect the family— affect us as a people and as a nation— there is the question ; and ^ contend that no narrow minded policy, even if it carries with it a half-penny or .. - 'nny a loaf, should ever be allowed to intervene between the successful trade of the British Empire and what is unsuccessful, and I contend— I say it here fearlessly— that I believe Great iPi mmm mmm 31 Britain, within the very near future, will need just such a policv as is propounded in this resolution more than we need it in Canada. We are self-sustained here to a large extent, in the Providence of God we have a great country with great resources, and we are going to be able in the very near future, if we cannot do it to'd^y I believe we can do it now — we can produce iron and steel and many other articles of commerce cheaper than any other country in the world — and why should not Canada, if necessary, be the workshop of the Empire ? I contend Great Britain's salvation lies along with her Colonies, and shorn of her Colonies she could not class in the first rank of nations for one year. Why, then, should she not adopt the policy that would bring to her these g eat nations that lie scattered throughout the world ? The only way it possibly can be done is to have a V general bond of material interests, it is the keystone of a nation's unity and '' prosperity, and I believe the sooner England adopts that policy the better for I herself and for every constituent part of the British Empire. I do not speak from f any narrow standpoint ; let it take in every little island of the sea over which the British flag waves, let every one of those islands feel that in a policy such as this they have something that binds them, not only in sentiment, but in material advan- tage and interest to the British flag, and you will have a unity of spirit and purpose that cannot be obtained in any other way. Why should we always say Canada, or any other country that advocates this is looking after number one. I tell you when Great Britain and the thinkers over there get their eyes open they will see that they need this policy as much as we do. Look at Great Britain's agricultural interests under free trade, practically wiped out— the farming community has become extinct. One of her poets said : " III fares the land, to hastening ills a prey Where wealth accumulates, and men decay : Princes and lords may flourish or may fade ; A breath can make them, as a breath has made : But a bold peasantry, their country's pride. When once destroyed can never be supplied." 5 (Applause). That is just what is happening in Great Britain to-day ; her yeomanry - are being wiped out, and how is it being done ? Because wheat and other great cereals have been imported from different places and the yeomanry have been ? compelled to leave the soil and to furnish the bone and sinew for carrying on the industrial enterprises of the cities. That great thinker. Earl Grey, has said : " This can no longer go on, our country is now depleted and stripped of its yeomanry, we have no more bone and sinew to send to the cities, and we must inaugurate a policy that will send the people back to the soil." There is the point, put on sixpence, or a shilling, or two shillings, if necessary, and rehabilitate agriculture in Great Britain and her Colonies. That is what I this policy will do, it will build up Great Britain in a way that no other I policy can. Then, it is just as necessary in regard to a great many manufac- Iturers as it is in regard to wheat. Look at the great influx of goods from abroad, '- and you will see Great Britain's supremacy is threatened. Why is it ? Because foreign countries have been allowed to dump their superfluous products into Great Britain. Look at the sugar industry ; it has been wiped out and at the mercy of the : Continent for years, and why ? Because individual firms have been asked to fight ;the nations that were paying the bounty, and though the capitals of some individuals in Great Britain seemed to be well-nigh inexhaustible, matters have gone on and on till in Greenock alone, where there were six refineries, there is only one left. If it f is an advantage for a nation to have one industry wiped out, how much tnore advan- ^tage would it be to have fifty industries wiped out ? That is the way it has been iwiped out, by the granting of bounties, and that bounty has not only struck the refineries of Great Britain, but also our refineries in the West Indies. We know the cry of these people has ascended, and their request has not been granted. Why ? Because of the lack of a resolution like this one. I have felt very warm on this ^question, and I have much pleasure in heartily seconding the resolution so ably fmoved by my friend, Mr. Drummond, of Montreal, (Applause.) 1 Mr E. G. Henderson, Windsor Board of Trade— I do not rise to move an I 3 13 amendment, but I think <7e ought to go a little further, and I would suggest to the mover and seconder of this resolution that they add to it the last clause of the resolution proposed by the Toronto Board of Trade. "And with that v!.'-v the Prime Minister of Canada is hereby requested to urge at the Imperial Conferenc itae securing of a royal commission, composed of representatives from Great Britain and the Colonies, to investigate conditions and to suggest such preferential treatment of imports from the various parts of the Empire as :>hall be best calculated to insure the fullest benefits." If our Premier's hands were strengthened with that addition, I am sure it would have a very good effect, and while this motion which has been moved by Mr. Drummond and seconded by Mr. Cockshutt fairly covers the ground, I think it would be much better if we added those words. Mr. Thomas McFarlane, Ottawa Board of Trade — I think it would be very profitable, if before the discussion proceeded much further we should come to an understanding as to what is to be done with the rest of the resolutions that are printed under this heading — there are twelve or fourteen of them, probably half a dozen are like the one that is now being proposed in favor of the preferential trade generally ; and there are a further half dozen which describe the means of oljtaining this preferential trade, that is by recommending that Great Britain remit the recently imposed grain and flour duties in favor of the Colonies. While one might be very well in favor of the resolution that is presented, we would not like to exclude the consideration of the others to which I have referred. This resolution proposed by the gentlemen from Montreal proposes that some practical steps be taken, yet it does not appear to me that any practical proposal has been made which is to result in preferential trade, it is only a resolution in favor of a phrase, a phrase such as we have had bandied about for the last twelve or thirteen years. But what we want is something more definite. Why are we here to-day ? It is because the Premier of Canada, Sir Wilfrid Laurier, with his colleagues, is about to attend a conference in London where this matter is to be discussed, and where some practi- cal steps are to be taken. If we adopt this resolution merely, and allow the other thirteen or fourteen to be struck out, we are certainly doing nothing towards practi- cally solving the problem that Hes before us, and I would like to ascertain before we proceed, whether if we pass this first resolution any opportunity will be afforded to discuss the other resolutions in which the remission of the gram and flour duty recently imposed in England in favor of the Colonies are dealt with. I know there are a great many representatives of Boards of Trade here who wish to advocate that idea, and I think it would be too bad if they did not have the opportunity of doing so. President Ames — In reply to Mr. McFarlane it may be said that any resolution that tries to cover too many departments becomes involved, and in con- nection with that it is recognized that the general headings which have been put do not in every case exactly cover all the resolutions which have been printed under that head, and with regard to this question that is probably more particularly the case, and if it would meet the suggestion of Mr. McFarlane, and meet the wishes of the Conference, I may perhaps be permitted to suggest that the resolution as pro- posed be considered with such amendments along that line as is desired, »' ' ^hat we further consider a resolution along the line of the preference of the ^x upon wheat and flour, say for instance that Brandon be asked to introduce their resolution, which is a short resolution dealing with that very question ; would that meet with your suggestion ? Mr. McFarlane — Perfectly. Mr. a. E. Kemp, M.P., Toronto Board of Trade — I notice in the resolutions of the Berlin Board of Trade and the Kingston Board of Trade, reference is made to the matter of German discrimination, and as German discrimination is a matter which has received the attention of the Montreal Board and other Boards of Trade to a very great extent within the last two or three years, I would Si.„^est that that form a third subject for consideration. Mk. G. E. Drummond — With reference to the resolution of the Brantford Board of Trade I would like to point out, sir, that the preamble is all right and in i J 23 accord with your ideas, but that the resolution itself is not any narrower than that of MonTreal. It is no more specific than ours. Let me My we w.ll be glad to accept thfsuggestion of Mr. fi^ndorson. of Windsor, to add the last clause of the Toronto resolution to that of the Montreal Board of Trade. Mr McFarlane-I am very sorry to hear that the representatives from Montreal are in favor of adding the last clause ot the Toronto resolution with regard to a commission ; that is the usual way to shelve a matter. It would seem to me hat thT^ingston resolution might be the one adopted for the second discussion. There are a i^eat many of us here. I have no doubt, who have no objection what- ever to the passing of the Montreal resolution on the understanding that the Kings- ton Board of Trade will bring forward their resolution in regard to the manner of bringing about preferential trade. President Ambs-As this suggestion came from Mr. McFarlane, so far as the Chair is concerned it will gladly accept the suggestion that the Kingston resolution be discussed next. Mr C. a. Young, Winnipeg Grain Exchange— I think >t would be well to adopt the resolution moved by the gentleman from Montreal which deals with the general principle. There are conditions which make it "ece^ary that the food Products and other exports from Canada and from the Colonies should be dealt with in a different way, and I think we cannot go too much into detail m a matter of this kind to try and make our case f ■-, lear as possible. I do not wish to be understood as speaking on the resolution, but I would suggest that you take the general principle suggested by the Montreal resolution, and then allow the other resolutions to be taken up. For instance, we have a definite resolution from the Grain and Produce Exchange of Winnipeg, which goes very fully into the matter, and I would suggest that that or some other resolution be discussed and adopted from the food product standpoint. Mr. M. C. Ellis, Toronto Board of Trade— When you come to consider that we have some twenty-threi motions upon this question of trade relations witlun the Empire, I think as business men it would become apparent to you that much time can be saved, and a great deal of assistance given, if it were to appoint a strong committee of able representatives of the leading Boards of Trade, or especially ol those Boards of Trade which have sent forward motions, and have that committee brine forward a resolution which they shall agree upon to submit to this Convention, and certainly the points which have been raised here as to German discrimination should be included along with the other questions, it being one of stupendous impor- tance and of great interest to Canada. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that you take the sense of this meeting as to whether the gentlemen present would not prefer to place this list of resolutions in the hands of a competent committee to bring forward a resolution in proper shape before the Convention. Mr. Geo. McLagan. Stratford Board of Trade— I approve very largely of the suegestion of the last speaker, but think that the time is inopportune for it until we have had further discussion. I think further discussion will bring out the features of other resolutions which this Conference will desire vo have incorporated in a general way. Until there is further discussion I do not think it is possible for any committee to bring forward a resolution that will meet the view of the Conference better than the one which we have now before us. I think at present we might have an informal discussion, and then we would be able to appjint a committee with a full knowledge of the views of the Conference to present a resolution which would embody the consensus of opinion of the Conference. President Ames— I think, gentlemen, the suggestion of a committee on reso- lutions is a good one, except that we have not a great deal of time, and, as the last speaker has pointed out, a committee could not at this stage be seized of the genera' sense of the Conference, and if you would allow me I would suggest that the dis- cussion proceed on the Montreal resolution, and it will be competent for any Dele- gate to suggest an amendment to it. Let us see how we will get along, and possibly we may reach a conclusion as to it ^vhich would, of course, add to dispatch of business. Then, when that is dealt with, either by being passed here or referred to 24 a committee, we will take up the Kingston resolution dealing with the special question of relations with Germany. Mr. McLagan, Stratford — Is it in order to offer another resolution in substi- tution for the purpose of discussion 7 President Ami.- — Anyone may move a resolution in amendment. Mr. Perrault, Gaspe Board of Trade — I think it will be impossible to get to work in that way. After we have affirmed the principle of the 1 1 ;. itreal resolution, which covers the whole ground, we can take up any special questijn relating to that general resolution, as a distinct 'esolution, but if we wish to propose amendments we will not really know where are. The question is too large to be included in a single resolution. Let us aftuai the principle first, and then take up the different sections. President Ames — The Montreal resolution is before the conference, and we must ask to have the Montreal resolution discussed. Mr. W. F. Hathewav, St. John Board of Trade — I wish to speak on the Montreal resolution, and to move an amendment, and after it has been seconded it is possible that the gentlemen who moved that resolution will feel that it is wise to add the amendment to the original resolution. RetolvtJ: TiuA the preferential duty rebate of 33 J per cent, now allowed on all merchandise imported from Great Britain should only apply when such goods are imported into Canada through Canadian ports, which change will greatly stimulate the direct steam- ship services between Great Britain and Canada and will also tend to strengthen Cana- dian national sentiment. Speaking more particularly upon the Montreal Board of Trade resolution, yesterday the flags were waving for peace. We left 230 of our Canadian soldiers on the field of battle in South Africa, but we all know that during the last twenty- five years there has been a commercial war between this country and the country that lies to the south of us that has taken away from us many more of the best people in the rank and file of this country than any war of any kind in the last twenty years. I take it that the Montreal Board of Trade resolution, so ably moved by Mr. Drummond, has for its pith and center the idea of changing that state of affairs, so that the merchandise of this country will flow through the best channels, through our own ports to the land across the sea, and that the trado of this country will not increase as it has during the last twenty years with the country to the south of us. I believe the gentleman from Brantford mentioned it that way, and spoke of it so very strongly. It is a surprise to me, and it must be a surprise to some of you, to know that in the year igoo the Dominion of Canada bought of the United States $25,000,000 worth of farm products, and they returned for that only $8,000,000 wc.ih of farm products. Is that the way it should be ' I trow not. It is a surprise to me to know that in the case of very many different Juies of goods produced to a large extent during the year 1900, the United States sold more to us of such things as potatoes, oats and a number of things, than they bought of us. So I take it that the spirit of the Montreal Board of Trade resolutions is to change that. How is it to be changed ? By the duties which should be levied. I think we ought to look at this matter in a very practical way. It is a large amount for the British taxpayer to be asked to pay a shiUing or even sixpence, but this question of threepence a hundredweight will not turn the scale ; half a penny a pound on wool would not turn the scale. If you go into th.' figures of the statistics issued by Great Britain herself you will see that a penny a pound on wool and three-pence a hundred pounds on wheat, that is to all countries except her great colonies— Australia, India, South Africa and Canada— taking it altogether, during the first five years, as the increase of the taxes of the British ratepayer, would not amount to any more than ;^i, 500,000 to £["1,700,- 000 a year. That is a large amount for the British taxpayers, and John Bull naturally turns around and asks, "What is the return that Canada and you gentlemen that assemble here are going to give us for that ?" But the e is a great return. Why, as one gentleman spoke here this morning — Don't you see that every emigrant who lands in Manitoba or the further North- West or your northern part of Ontario mf/j 25 Iwould be a purchaser of English goods again ? In 1899 we imported from England lonlv $43,000,000 worth of goods, while we bought from the United States f 119,- looo 000 worth of goods, and cannot that be changed by the wide policy mentioned lin the resolution ? I think it can be changed. I feel that now the Bniish people %re in a position to change that. Some may, perhaps, think that it is unwise to ask *this in view of the fact that we have given preferential trade to the extent of 33^ per cent, already to the English people. Still, it seems to have encouraged the British ^ipeople to buy more from us. Then we have this later enthusiasm which came from that country because of the number of men we sent to South Africa, and that has further stimulated the British people, so that now 1 feel the time is opportune, and, jl think, it will be strange if the influence of this Conference of Boards of 'l rade is |not felt in the Imperial Congress through the representatives which C inada will send. 1 1 am glad to see this movement brought forward at this time ; I would be gladder, falso, if in the remarks of gentlemen from the west and from the east, from Mani- ^toba and from British Columbia, they would recognize the breadth of this Dominion ^and try not only in the way of gathering our men together to help ^.reat Britam in I her wars, but try in a further and completer way by establishing ou own Canadian I nationality in sentiment, by acting upon the suggestion of this amendment to the resolution and carrying it, to send our trade through Canadian channels. That is ^what will bind us together. Trade is the great leveller of men. You may have «seen somev/here that trade is called petty and huckstering, but trade is not petty, it tis not huckstering, it stands there ar. a great power in the making of a nation. I I believe if you regulate your trade so that the whole country will participate in it, land in order t>-it the great bulk of it will go through Canadian ports, the time is not I far distant whtj the solidarity of Canada will be infinitely stronger than it was ten I or fifteen years ago. The people in the east feel this somewhat, the people in the far I west feel it also, and I hope that the representatives from Toronto, this beautiful city I where we are to-day, the representatives from Montreal, will feel also the necessity lof making this resolution truly Canadian in its character, and making it so that the lamenduient suggested will be added without the necessi, '^f a vote, so that the Igreat Canadian ii-.ie as it is expanding every year with the Old Country will I expand more and more, and will expand through the ports of our own country, and I not thrcugh the ports of another nation, however friendly ii may be. I Mr. Rolland, Montreal— It is with pleasure I rise to second the motion of my 1 friend from St. John. This rebate which is given should be accorded only to goods I passing through Canadian ports, because our Government has made large expendi- f tures for our harbors, our railways and canals. I believe, gentlemen, you will agree * '^ ns that goods coming from England should have the rebate only when they are ted through Canadian ports. In order to build up our ports and our Canadian , and not wvc nher ports to our detriment. I .vIr. Chown, Kii.^ston— It seems to me Mr. Hatheway's resolution deals with f another matter altogether. It is dealing with preferenti:il trade coming into Canada, iwhile we are discussing a preference in Great Britain, and it seems tome that might Ibetter come up as a substantive motion later on. I President Ames— I think the matter of the amendment may be included. Mr. J. E. DeWolfe, Halifax Board of Trade— I think the amendment tnoved iby Mr. Hatheway is of such vast importance that it should be a lesolution by itself, land I would ask in the interest of this amendment that Mr. Huthewa; would with- |draw his motion and have it discussed as a resolution by itsef I Mr. Christopher E^ton, Owen Sound Board of Trade — I consider the IMontreal resolution has been most carefully framed, and I think the amendment iasked for by the gentleman from St. John will come in very well at another place, 'perhaps when the question of transporiation is considered. I shall certainly support Ithe Montreal resolution. There is one little change which I would like to suggest, I" That this Conference is of opinion that Great Britain can serve best the interests fof the Empire by giving these food products," instead of products. (Several Idelegates, No, no.) However I think we will save tiri, . a passing the Montreal resolution. 26 Prkbidbnt Ames — Do I understand you to make that as an amendment ? Mr. Eaton — No, I would not make that as an amendment, but I would simply suggest that as a change if it meets with the approval of the gentlemen here. (Several delegates, No, no.) Mr. Charles B. Watts, Toronto Board of Trade — I was tjoing to ask what point in the Montreal resolution Mr. Hatheway's amendment covers, because I have looked ove: it carefully and cannot find what words are amended by that reso- lution, or what is the idea. Under the heading of Steamship Service from Canadian Ports, I think, Mr. Hotheway might introduce his resolution, and in that way get support, which he would not get under the present conditions. Mr. Hatheway — I understood the President to give his decision about the matter. President — The decision of the chair was it is competent for you to make the amendment to this resolution; it is of course also competent for you to with- draw it, and it could be dealt with separately as l>eing a resolution arising out of the resolution submitted, and included under the general head. It is for tlie mover and seconder to say whether they wish the amendment put, or whether they will withdraw it. Mr. Hatheway — Perhaps the mover and the seconder of the Montreal resolu- tion would allow it to become part of their resolution. Mr. Drummond, Montreal — I must regretfully say that we must decline to incorporate it with our resolution. I ma^ say that we will be glad to support it as a separate resolution. We would like this resolution to be carried as it is with the clause from the Toronto resolution added ; we want it made as broad as possible. We would like it to remain with r*" ^ to the word " product." We want the West Indies to have a chance with regard to sug?.r, and we want the wool fror Australia to have a chance. Mr. Hatheway — As Mr. Drummond has said he would be glad to support my resolution as a separate resolution, we will be glad to withdraw the amendment and bring it forward at a later stage. Mr. McLagan, Stratford Board of Trade — I wish to offer as an amendment the addition of the last two clauses of the Stratford resolution. " Further that preferences between the Mother Land .ind the Colonies shonld be entirely voluntary, rather than the result of bargaining, and each independent government should consider the interest of its own people first. That it is possible to continue the Canadian Tariff Preference in its present form or modiBed, if need be, so that no interest in Canada need suffer thereby ; and in the opinion of this Conference Britain would be serving the interests of the Empire by adjusting the present tax on foodstuffs, and levying any other duties that may oe imposed in such a manner that imports from Canada and other Colonins will have preference over those from other nations, when this can be done without sacrifice of British interests." In moving this resolution I do not do so with the idea that in its present form it will be adapted to be tacked on to the end of the Montreal resolution, but I move it because I believe it is necessary if we are going to have a free and full discussion of this subject in order to permit a resolution to be drawn that will be harmonious, and can be passed heartily by a large majority of the Conference. While agreeing almost entirely .vith the wording of the Montreal resolution I consider it is indefi- nite in some points, and leaves room for a difference of opinion that may exist on what seems to me a very important and vital point. The important point that we wish to bring out in offering this amendment is that suggested by the first clause, that preference between the Mother Land and t - Colonies should be entirely voluntary rather than the result of bargaining, and each independent government should consider the interest of its own people first. When tariff preference was given by Canada to the imports from Great Britain, while there might have been some opposition to it I do not think anyone will deny that it had two results ; in the first place it had the result of stimulating to some extent at least an increase in imports from Great Britain as against those from other countries, and, second, it has the result of strengthening very materially the bonds of sympathy and common interest that here. the 47 exist between Canada and the Mother Land, and in this way, indirectly it had the result^STSing the foundation for an increase along coror ..cial lines that will be very he pS We can, no doubt, all agree most heartily that this reso u ion would beadeKblething to have, and we can also agree that the present time is an oDMrtuTe time for urging the possibilities that would lie for Canada and other cffi es "long this linefas^ell affor the general upbuilding of trade between the different part! of the whole Empire, but tliis i^int we think should ever be kept in m?nd. and that is, that while we may all agree as to what is desirable we should seek always to take means to bring it about in the mcst sure way. and it seems to us fhit in r^aking a resolution that will seem to indicate that we are expecting and ookinSfor an arrangement that will be bargaining between the Mother Land and between ?he Colonies to bring about a sort of commeicial union, and m attempting to dothat we are attempting to do something that will in the end frustrate the very object we hav^L vfew. Whill it has been pointed out that there is a great difference in the tariffs of the different colonies, and the lack of that trade between them that we rnfeht desire, still we must remember because of the diversity of location and diversity of interests, it is a very difficult problem to bring about unuy along that nne."nd iiseems to us at this time the best way to bring that about is along the ne that Canada has taken the initiative in. namely, m voluntary action instead of bargaining. The idea of this resolution is that whatever we do along that line should be merely to seek to strengthen the idea that by a preference gc«d may be accomplished, and leave it to the Mother Land to work out this question let her statesmen wirk it out independently of any bargaining with us or with any other colony, because the moment you introduce the idea of bargammg, the moment you ask fcr something in return, that moment you have robbed vour work rtheeffe^c°that .sto be obtained by the strong bond of sympathy and common fee ine that is really the great bond In the British Empire at the present time, and you make possible the Irising of friction, and just so soon ««„ you njake a man s commercial interests seem to run at variance with those of another that moment you are liable to have him seeking to advance his own interests, a°d *« J^^^^ !>' " indifferent to the interests of the whole Empire, that is a very natural result. Therefore, we are urging by this amendment that Great Bntam. through her staes- men. independent of us, should consider the question, and in view of the fact t a t she has made a slight deviation from her practice of ""a^y /"^^^y '™P°f'°e ^„S on foodstuffs, it seems to us an opportune time to suggest that she should consider the possibilities of preferential trade in the adjustment of f^e presen tanff or any tariff she may seek to impose. I think it will be a mistake if this Conference should urge upon Great Britain the establishment of duties upon her imports for the ex|ress%urpose of creating a preference for her Colonies. I th"'"*. if we read aright the temper of the British people, it would be simply frustrating the object we ''"^Wilu^M Preston, Stratford-I have to second the amendment proposed by my colleague. Mr. McLagan. I think. Mr. President, that the subject under dis- r/ssion Jxhe present time is by all means the most important that will com« before us for deliberation. You have said that this is a Conference, and I trust that this amendment will receive very careful consideration, putting aside fo'^ffo™;?^ any preconceived ideas we may have had with reference to a preferential tariff or in favor of the resolution. I beg to notice in the first olace that the resolution does not call for a preferential tariff within the Empire, or between the nations forming the Empire, but simply requests and suggests that Great Britam can best serve the interests of the Empire by giving the products of the Colonies a preference There is nothing said whatever about the return the Colonies shall make *« Great Bnain, and in that respect I think if the Conference is in favor of the P^^erenial tariff with n the Empire it should be corrected to that extent, although personally I agree wth my colleague who moved the amendment that it is not advisable Jo make a preter- ential t.iriff agreement between the Colonies, but that everything of that kind should be voluntary. Most of the remarks of the seconder of the r^ -olution, I think, were not altogether in line with the resolution as it was drawn up, l-i. more J" s"PP°" °' * preferential tariff among the nations forming the Empire, because each Colony Has got a8 big enough and influential enough at the present time to be styled a nation. I claim that Canada now is big enough, great enough, that Canadian citizens are individually wealthy enough, fully as much so as those of Great Britain to pull away from the tutelage that we have occupied to the Mother Country in the past, that we should rise abovethe boyhood dependence on the Mother Country and assert our manhood (Hear, hear) and no longer approach the Mother Countrv with cap in our hands asking alms or undue favors. (Hear, hear) : I claim, Nfr. Chairman, just criticizing for one moment a remark of the seconder of the motion, that there is no reason and no object why the workman of Great Britain should consent to a half penny or a penny a loaf on his bread, if as was stated, Canada is to be the workshop of the world, and at the same tima we are to feed them ; what induce- ment can there be to the workingman to consent to a duty of that kind ? Just change the thing around for aminuteand put ourselves in the position of Great Britain, and we imagine a suggestion coming from her that we should tax ourselves to the exttnt of a penny or half penny, as the case may be or as the second speaker stated, to the amount of some four or five millions of dollars a year! I do not think, Mr. President, that we surely expect ihis to carry. Another reason why I cannot support the resolution as drawn is that I claim the strength of the British Empire at the present time lies in that sentimental feeling that has been created and accentuated largely as the result of the Boer war, and that to enter into any bar- gaining dealings with the Mother Country we are apt to undo what has already been accomplished in this regard in strengthening the bonds with the Mother Country, and to create a feeling that was expressed by the late Sir John Macdonald in the case of friction, so much the worse for British connection, and so soon as you commence bargaming and dealing between the parts of the British Empire you are likely to create such a feeling. Another reason I have for supporting the amendment is that the questions of free trade and preferential tariffs are matters of politics in the Old Country, and it would be injurious to Canada if we should thrust ourselves in in a matter that is none of our business and take sides, ?s we will do, in suggesting that they should do away with free trade and give a prefer- ential tariff and tax themselves for our support. 1 claim we will do ourselves much more harm than good by following the suggestion of the amendment. I hope that nothing will be done in this matter but what will meet with the hearty support of the whole country. Mr. Andrew Pattullo, M.P.P., Woodstock Board of Trade— The observa- tions that have fallen from the gentleman who has just spoken seem to me to emphasize the wisdom of the suggestion made some time ago that before commit- ting ourselves to any resolution, that the original resolution, and the various pro- positions that we have heard should be submitted to a select committee, so that what we do here to-day we will do wisely. A great deal depends on form as well as on the substance of the resolution. I do not desire to discuss the various propositions, but 1 may say that with the main purport of the original resolution I heartily con- cur ; I believe that it represents Canadian public opinion, that is that we desire a preference in the British market if we can secure it, but unfortunately it is not we in Canada who have to solve this momentous question ; it is the people of Great Britain, and we will never get that preference until we can convince the people of Great Britain that it is in their own interest, rather than in the interests of the Colo- nies, or as well as in the interests of the Colonies, if I may so put it, that they should give such a preference. Britain is already bearing enormous burdens for her Colonies, burdens so stupendous, that we wonder why the British people, the rich and the poor of them, continue to bear those burdens without asking the Colonies for something in the way of reciprocity in that regard, and she is adding enormously through the close of this war, and through the extraordinarily liberal terms which she has given to the Boeis in South Africa, to the burdens of the Empire. That is a consideration we must take into account in discussing this question. We are ask- ing that Great Britain give us a preference for our benefit, we are asking that our representatives in Britain make that request, and what will be the first question asked of them? We know this is going in the face of the policy of both of the great parties in Britain, and during the last few days the leaders of one of the great question, looking at tne "P'° """^^ . J^^ Now, what i« the wi«est and beat ^rty may some time in the future be in ^we , ^^^^ ^^^.^^ gtatesmen Vay for u» to »PP'°»^^ '^ » '»,Ji*j£'? What are you%repared to do in return ? Are will ask of our "P"^"*^"'^"^/ " ^rfigS* " ^^^^^ Lil relations to the Empire ? you prepared to/f °"'''^" y°" here should take up that point. That is the crux Slow, I suggest that '^e Sare:vf^f3;.YSs create a home market, that is ample. The United states am ° ^« « ^ ^ at the same time to keep the agricultural "soun.es aav mistake other interests, and, having those interests n vieNv I hinlc it wouia oe for us to give undue weight to the pos^^^^^^^^^^^ ,,i, preleJ^n^e^h^'rcS^maU'rmil^^^^^^^ -'W^■«f«^■il^"^KWhKai-•r■'TaBL«J;L*>^■^^ v.: we would to a large extent lecure, beyond all peradventure, a rapid and satislactorv development of the Dominion of Canada. Robert Munro, Montreal Board of Trade— You will support me in saying that the amendment before us at the moment is the amendment from Stratford, and that the matter of the mining interests does not form any part of the resolution now before us, and we will have an opportunity of discussing that later. The *^f "f "L"*"* ■ ^^ '^* '■*' speaJter. I must Say, are quite in line with the last clause of the Montreal resolution which is before us. Let me, however, in a word or two, point out that the Stratford resolution does recognize the very thing which the Montreal motion suggests, that the present is an opportune time to advocate the extension of preferential trade within the Empire. That is the whole question, and that IS what the Montreal resolution suggests. The paragraph beginning with the word "further seems quite superfluous. The statement is made that there shall be no bargaining. Mr. President, I call your attention to the fact that while some of the res^utions on this paper contain such an idea, the resolution of he Montreal Board of Trade contains no such clause. There is no reference whatever to giving a quid pro quo because we gave preferential trade. We do not think that is the way to approach the British Government, and we do not go with hat in hand to the Bntish Parliament, we go as a part of the Empire, and we suggest to our representatives in the Councils of the Empire what we think can best serve the interests of the Empire ; therefore there is no hat in hand in the matter, and certainly we know that preferential trade can only be given by the voice of the English people when it can be done without sacrifice of British interests ; but we have a right to tell them what in our view is in the interests of the Empire, and we have also to let our statesmen know when they come to confer on those matters what the opinion of the people of Canada is in regard to it, and what their ground is tor the opinion. Therefore, I suggest that we confine ourselves to the consider- ation of the matters before us. It seems to me there is nothing at all in the resolution from Stratford which is contrary to that submitted by Montreal. In regard to our home market, all these resoli-'ions aim at building up our own market by adding to our population, and creating a demand at home for our own products. We do not admit any weakness with regard to our interests. I submit the resolution from btratford is not a fitting amendment to the Montreal resolution, because it already admits what the Montreal resolution contends f .-, that the present is an opportune time to advocate preferential trade. (Hear, hear). John Russell, Winnipeg Board of Trade— I have very much pleasure in rising at this time to say a few words in connection with the question now before this assembly. It is no doubt one of the greatest questions that have ever arisen for consideration by any Conference or Board of Trade within the Dominion of Canada, and It is one to which we should give the most calm and deliberate consideration, and endeavor if possible to work it out on a plan that we would be prepared to recom- mend, and to endeavor to enforce and stand by. Whether we can do so at this Conference, whether there is sufficient time at our disposal or not, is a question that may possibly considerably affect the consideration of this question, embracing as it does not only the standing, possibly of the British Isles to day, but of Canada and the other Colonies, and affects them much more seriously, probably, for the future than for the present time. If we look at the Isles as they are to-day, we find that they are considerably limited in extent, their population must necessarily be hmited, and the place for the surplus population to find a home is in the Colonies. We have a territory sufficient to accommodate all the immigrants that can possibly come to us. We have some thirty-five millions ir the British isles. In the United States there are about eighty millions. What will they be in fifty years from to-day ? What will they be in one hundred years ? Can the iiritish Isles hope to maintain the supremacy, both commercially and military, that they now possess, unless some means is developed for maintaining the connection with the colonies, and providing for her surplus population ? To give you a slight indication of what we can do in the West to accommodate these, I will merely refer to what was done during the past year. We have in Manitoba alone about forty- hve million acres, making allowance for lakes and poor land, sufficient first-class 3» theoait year j6,ooo farmert P'o*»»"° "y" ""j-jj... ^nd over $40,000,000 in iSh^; five million bu.uel. ^'t°«*'';«'°*JrJ'?JeTa" official figure, largely. vaC That will P^'fy^^^^Tul&conll^r.iior. the enormou. extent o almost exclusively, and when y°" **?y"nitoba. you can «je there is a power Territory west of Manitoba and nor h of MmUod^^ y ^^ ^^ ,„o,„ous extent. It latent in Canada to assist the Emp re, to assise »"^ , j t in force >t would ; stated here that if the P°»'cyou lined mtv^««»0"j;° .^P ^^^^^ .^ Sirnulate trade and develop colonulenter^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^j preferential JS^ about that. By »»'«/"'<^"'^" f^ 'J' eaT e "ent all the contticting interests. ♦r«ae we would unite and harmonize to a greai " .. p^jucts that can be Sea't BrUain possesses a natu^l J>-«J,f, ^^i. we -n produce all that consumed, not only food F°J""="- .'^Vritain, no odds what political or corn- can possibly be required *>? G««^ J^'"*^^^^ her. her food products will be mercial combinations may be formed ag^'"" Canada alone we can supply ^fe by union with 'he colonies, because in C=^^^^^^ d,,,,op til the grain and meat Britain could possibly require. ^ our ^1 and manufacturing >°dustries to a K^ea^^ "^t'^i'^^^y^he m duct.rin its natural ^n«/"« "\\"" °* *j jg one certainly of alms-asking. I MorarealBWd of Trade as It stands at present ^^^^^^^^^ ^^ y^^^ ^^^^^.^,y „ think that the voluntary system sho"W not be^osi S ^^ ^^ ^,3 ;„ connection somewhat imply by this -fol»'>°" ^^^Sn ^"^ h^ we have done n South with our taiiff arrangement, and »°c?°°«%*'°",^';^^ we are looking now Africa. Great Britain certainly wail«under^hey« .^^^^^ ^^ ^^ before for some immediate return. I„?;°^;!;^e"t but i t^mk it should be 'eft entirely the Conference the substance o/. the request buw ^^ agreement, and under those 3a own strength by doing all the possibly c«n, but do not let us as a Colony ask from ow.-'"".*^'^' ?/"""'•'•• "■'>'»« B<»fd of Trade— I rise to suggest a slisht addmon to the Montrea' resolution. We have already decided? I understand to seemeHL m! !-! I ^'l k ?' '"""^'?* "^«"'" " definiteness to the resolution which it S!ri!^ j*° '"f •* ^^°"- ^'"'^ Toronto resolution simply asks that an enquiry h.8'''ue«io7u";tiMt' r»h'''"'''^ has already said, there Ll he no "lutTJ'f and.ntr,„«? ' thoroughly examined. Examination compromises no one. Land anHth.?^ 1 ':°'"""''.»'o" ".' « committee of experts, representing the Mothe^ steo toward it? ■"r"' '° Tu""55?". •*'''' ^""''°"' ' '•'•"'' '»>»» *o"W be one long onto rerolulion : ' *'*'*""'" **"'*' ' '"««'"' '» ">'■•■ '° ^°"°^ '»'« ^or- "And thai the repretMiniativM of (he other Colonle. be asked to join in thii requent." I think those of us who were present at the London Congress two years ago thought th.Th!r°r;:?r'*""%V° '*"" ^r^'^'r P^««°'ation of the%ase was that we had no I Hiff ^! » °'°"'".^'**' ""V- ^ ••'•"'' **"" ^"^*«l''y «'« that if every Colony submits thilr. 1^'°^"."°" °V*"' '^"""•°" "° «'"' P'°»'"* ^»" possibly be made^nd therefore it seems to me that in any action we take we should endeavor to eet the representatives from the other Colonies with us. I think that if oufrepresentatives to u,-o Congress m London would endeavor to get the Colonies together and agree upo. some common ground in regard to this quesMon it would fic litprmat^ers very a.uch indeed. I quite agree with what has been said here with regard to wha" his Conference puts down on paper. We are naturally apt to look at thU subjec too much from a Canadian standpoint, but we must remember that there can be no fs to rL',°H *"' n'"°" ""^l'^ 'V"^' J"^' " satisfactory to the Mother Land as U IS to Canada and the rest of the Colonies. Mr. G. E. Drummond. Montreal— I think we are all in harmony with the suggestion of Mr. Campbell, but I think there is no necessity for th^raUndment ^'T^ '* mP"!'^ well provided for in the Toronto resolution, which sayTf-^Tha the Prime Minister of Canada is hereby requested to urge, at the Imperial Confer ence, the securing of a royal commission." What more Ian we add to that ? Mr Campbell Halifax-My point was that it might be well for our represen- tatives to consult with the representatives from the other Colonies in "rder to uni°e on some common action before approaching the Imperial Government obierHnA J^ ,t '^°"''*'' ^y'""'P«8 Grain Exchange-I do not wish to ofler any objection to the main motion, ,n fact, I think the sentiment of it is generally approved by the Conference, but I regret that the whole matter is left fnX fo m Sou.,drM; iZnV J^!^^r.u 'he remarks made by the gentleman from Owen &out,d (Mr. Eaton); I think the agricultural products should be dealt with separ- from 'th?. rnnf"''^ '° "'°^' '^"'^"''^'y- ^^ '""^' ^'^'"'' 'hat any propositi cSg from this Conference is to a great extent a recommendation to our representative who IS going to attend the Conference in London, and we have to show as clea ly as possible that the propositions we make are reasonable and workable and, !ri^f he falls in with the views expressed here he will then endeavor to convince he reasonable. Supposing he convinces that Conference, that Conference will have to convince the Legislators of Great Britain that it is wise; they have to Take aafon so it?",' '^\'"f'''^'''' they feel will have the' suppU of L e^'cSe," so that, after all. the matter is a political one. Sir, I think it is our duty to try and make as strong a case as possible to present befoeti J I.npena tenr*T"^ and anything that will tend to show our position, anything tSTiU Ind luild uo Jf r r ""'''' ■^f preference is going'to strength^en the Empi e and l.uild up the Colonies, will certainly be very necessary, and I thin)< we should furnish all the evidence that we possibly can to show thai in thebuiSing uj 33 up th. Empi«. Com.ng M 1 ^°^SS!S^;oth;iCfot . prderenc. m br..d product., the effect th. » '^'l ''^^JtuT.r v^ty Wldi^^ up the country.. trenRth- eolon,e..for ..r.I.ubm.tthere«DO,ur^^^^^^^^ J.^V^^ within the Empire. ening .t. defence.. '^° .^^ J*^^f fcct "ui.t Gr~t Britain h.. .Iready put a (Hear, hear) "<».j=°""J"V°fhinu we .hould ~e if we cannot in wme way tariff on her b"««!f»"5 .ia tike rdvantaie of that condition of things. I .trengthen our poa.t on •5jJ**V.'e''',2eTnce to the manufacture, and other claim, sir, it i. a httle different with reierenMW^^^ exports that the Co onieamavMnd to Great Bntainwnere^^ ^^^ establiahed; in thi. case ^^ere >s » t„,ff and Ijf'nk it ^^^^^.^^ friend Mr. KusMii, irom " '"" » ^' , . .. colonies, and one gentleman said, '° ''ThX^^ueSo's^thrr r'epr°^^^ asked whfn they go over one of tha first questions inai "*" ""H*" j^ ^ should be in a there IS. " What are you Prepared to do ? I^»°' {°^»^y 'J^*, „, ,hat preference could supply Grea ^I'^l^l'"^'^^^^ bounds when I make that statement. I see by this meeting that 1 »™""*="y *'"„"; "^^ t^kinc an average for the last six years, looking up statistics that Great »"]»'"' /^^ *V2j',^j eighteen millions of has imported annually "''"^^Jj^^ abou^ °^^^^^ bushels of wheat and flour, that is representing '""^"t^ ? ^ ^^^ ten millions of United States has f"^"> J»'l.«°'"°aten^nt a" d I know I am reasonable in it. that. crop on less than 60 acres per farm. Now the ^Yerage a"^ » v,-rth-West con- of land, and consequently they are on>y.c"l«'vatmg. as tar as tne pro „c. «e can dooble that, with th. v«y sam. 36,000 f"™"!™*! "iVemiBtalion ?ri'.sa^^.t"h•^1lt'7a,^/XaJ;t£^ ^^ to the crop of last year, because the people that came "» '"y;7i,e« Sants are crop in the' same year they came in-it ^-;°^^^^^d°°„y„^^^^^^^^ SenTfonditions coming in to-day in immense numbers, they are '^o^'rS >" """ j^ ^ ^^ from those under which the early settlers came into that country. .' '"*J ^^ r'.,s^;ri3sv.°i.iriv.o"h?;f^ the line of the railways. I want to say along the Ime of the railways already o^ to sav nothing of the hundreds oi miles that are being built rr»s year, vve na ia .X^ acfes o?",and within ten miles of those "J^fy«; °^jJ.c„Vthaf unde le^st 30,000,000 acres of first-class wheat land. Put one-hall of that unaer W ii' 34 crop at twenty bushels to the acre, and what have we ? I am making a reasonable statement, for I may say that the average crop for the last twenty years has been over nineteen bushels. Calculate that and what have you got ? More wheat than they would consume in Great Britain in two years. Put a quarter of it under crop and you have an enormous quantity of wheat. President Ames — I am sorry to say, Mr. Young, your time is up. Mr. p. B. Dumoulin, Quebec Board of Trade — The important part for us in Canada, it seems to me, to consider is, what effect such a policy would have on our trade relations with United States : These trade relations are of paramount import- ance to us, as by the laws of nature it is self-evident that the trade relations of Canada and the United States must be removed considerably. Any scheme of Imperial preferential trade which must render more hostile the attitude of the United States Government in its commercial relations with Canada should be carefully avoided, unless it would be clear that Canada would reap greater benefit from such an arrangement than from closer trade relations with the United States. Referring to the statistical year book of Canada for 1900, page 197, we find that the value of our imports from the United States was $170,000,000 in round figures against $45,000,- 000 from Great Britain, and we exported to the United States $68,000,000 against $107,000,000 to Great Britain. It would seem at first sight that this state of things was pretty satisfactory to our present relations, and it would seem that if we wish to improve our relations we should rather turn our eyes towards our relations with the United States. I believe this idea has occurred to the Kingston Board of Trade in the third paragraph of their resolution. " And whereas such preference in favor of Great Britain must necessarily prejudice Canada's relations with other countries who may adopt retaliatory measures, Germany already having imposed a practically prohibitory duty upon our cereals." From the figures you will see we trade more with the United States in spite of a barrier between the two countries, and in spite of the tariff. This, I think, shows that by nature we are lx>und to be friendly with the United States, or else it they retaliate against us, it might injure this country to a very large extent. Mr. C. K. Hagedorn, Berlin Board of Trade— We have been told that British consumers would object to pay a large amount of duty for us on their food products and other things. If we can show the British Government that the various colon- ies can supply all the necessities of the British market, and also can convince the British Government to adopt a tariff in favor of the colonies, and the purchases are made from the colonies, where does the payment by the British consumer come in ? 1 think he would then be perfectly exempt from this duty that we have been told he would object to pay. This gentleman from Manitoba (Mr. Young), told us of the large available acreage out there for the production of wheat. I think that should be a convincing argument that we in Canada can do a great deal towards supplying the British market so far as wheat is concerned, and if the other Colonies can possibly do something in that direction it is quite probable, if not at the present time, at least within a very few years, the colonies will be able to supply the British consumer, and according to this arrangement the Br'tish consumer would not have to pay any customs in purchasing from the Colonies. I do not see why we should not adopt this resolution as drawn by the Montreal Board of Trade, as it does not bind us down to any hard and fast proposition. We are not asking for so much percentage, we are simply putting forth the suggestion, and that is quite proper, of what we think would be of advantage to the whole Empire. We set before the Imperal Government the resources of the Colonies, and point out to them that if they keep purchasing from countries that are not her Colonies, they are simply building up nations that are antagonistic to them : (Hear, hear), and thereby working against the interest of the Empire by every dollar's worth of purchase they make outside the Empire. I think this idea of a preference within the Empire is correct. It will conduce to the establishment of a bond of union between the Colonies and the Fatherland — Motherland I should say possibly — I am not speaking in German, though I am of German descent, (Laughter), and that fact being established, I think there is no doubt but what all the men and all the money will come into tapressupon the E^g^'?**™*" *i!?.°!t"S^^^ Imperial Government and the and thereby strengthening ^"".^«'^.^*1^S^^^^ have gone outside the Empire to Imperialistic idea. I'^.^'j^P^S Jj^'^ great many cases they have done so through invest their money and ^^^1^'^^^^^^, of England to-day do not know what lack of knowledge. I f ^^f .^„*y_ ^l/ucts of all kinds, and our Conference which tliis Canada of ours can supply in P^?''""; "',.■;''_ .u „es of the great many of wi^ be held after the Coronation will "O dou^t open th«^y««^°„,,,,^f jhe Jther them to the vast [^^^"'^"^r^^^^f'/^o support this resolution of the Montreal Colonies, and for that reason I am glad to support ^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ Boardof Trade.as I donoUhinkthere^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^j^^ ^^^ .^ ^ of We are simply rnak.ng a P-po-^^^^^^^^^ ,, ^^pi,e for the develop- IntfSTeEm'^ireTtheEtnpir'e-s people. (Applause). M. D. H.W.Kie.l.ronto Boar^^^^^^^^^^^ defence. I leave that out o^J^e jest on enUre^^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^ ^^^ d unless we can Protect it-protect it l'°^?^^^^^\^ our trade or we cannot have from land to land ? We mu t have a Prote«:t °°Jo ^ ^^^^^^ j trade. That is how the whole Atncan war ua b ^ ^^^ ^ ihe burghers to destroy the influence o the European citiz ^ J ^ g ^^.^^^^ vote in managing the affairs °f ''^°f '°°- "„ :. the result of want of proper pro- and all this ™rnense waste of blood and money « the resu^^ ^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^ tection to trade in Cape Colony durmg the last miyy ^^ ^^ hat any right to ask England Jo g,ve us a e n« ^^ ^^ ^^ tect our own trade, and I am goiug to asK yo"' P ^^e following inserted : opinion that reciprocal P«*««°"»' ''^i^d^^British by t«°d*n8 '° »«<="^ '" defence." .... We have heard all the way through of pr^erentuldu^y^ objectionable word. We are ^s^K/^J.^^^SWy! no^ preferential duty, for come out boldly and say we want ^.^"^^J^l^^i^t us ask for a .differential rtngrs?i^egoiS'o7th\?o?» ^dsrS S^ha^^aSr:^ ^l^^^ ^JJiuSrs? ^-r as wheat and 36 other important articles of food are concerned, and I have every confidence that they can do so, in fact, sir, it is Manitoba which has placed this Dominion in a posi- tion to-day to demand the attention of the Imperial Conference on trade. (Hear, hear.) I am prepared to recognize Manitoba according to the expression invented by Lord Dufferin, as the " bull's eye " of the Dominion, and we are grateful to her for the strength she has given this great Dominion, in placing us in a position to demand the attention of the makers of the fiscal policy for the Empire. Mr. Hathewav, St. John— Will you define the difference between preferential and differential ? Mr. Wilkie— You cannot have a preference in fiee trade ; if Great Britain has no duty, how can she give a preference ? Mr. Hatheway — She has a duty. Mr. Wilkie— It was a war measure. Cattle are free, lumber is free, wool is free, and there are hundreds of articles entering Great Britain free of duty, so how can there be a preference where there is no duty ? The thing is absurd. We must put ourselves on ecord as asking for what we really want, namely, a differ- ential duty against the foreigners. So far as the remarks of Mr. Dumoulin are concerned, I do not think we need fear any further retaliation on the part - f the United States. They have done their very best. (Hear, hear.) They have exer- cised every influence known to shrewd politicians to force us into a position that we refuse to occupy, and I do not think we need fear any policy or any efforts on their part. In fact, on the other hand, what I fear most is, that the United States, seeing our independence of them, will endeavor to bring us around by a free trade or reciprocal bribe. I hope that we will be strong enough to resist when it comes, but come it will. The trade of the Northwest— Manitoba, British Columbia- would, under such ccnditions, go to St. Paul and Minneapolis, and we in Toronto, Montreal, Hahfax and St. John would be out of it. We need have no fear of the United States retaliating against us. Their next form of retaliation will be to offer reciprocity. I would like to know, sir, your ruling on this point, as some gentleman called me to order. I contend that the question of the protection of the lines of communication, the protection of trade, is just as important a matter as the creation of the trade itself. We cannot have one without the other. I am not asking any gentleman to commit himself to a policy of Imperial protection. Let that come when the occasion arises; but surely we must prctect our own shores and our own ships, and why should we not show our willingness to do so instead of being dependent on the Motherland ? President Ames— On the point of order, I think that this is the position, Mr. Wilkie : The question of trade is undoubtedly bound up with the question of defence. The question of trade, however, is bound up with other questions, and I know that the Committee on Resolutions of the Toronto Board in considering the two felt that it would be wiser to discuss the question of trade as a major proposi- tion, and discuss the question of defence as a major proposition. (Hear, hear.) That was thought out, and I think that has been concurred in by the actions of the other Boards. I would therefore rule in favor of Mr. Dumble's point of order. Mr. Wilkie— Having moved that way I beg to move the other amendment. It would no doubt facilitate matters very much if a committee were formed to draft into one resolution the various ideas which have met with the favor of the Conference. Mr. Drummond— Might I point out to Mr. Wilkie, I think the Montreal resolution simply asks for a preference in the markets of England, and it may be given either by preferential or differential duties, I don't care which. Mr- J- D. Allan, Chairman of the Management Committee, Toronto Board of Trade — Tne hour of noon adjournment has arrived, and it is very aoparent from the interest that is being taken in the discussion that we are going to be considerably hampered for time. It was not the intention of the Toronto Board to work the visiting delegates too hard, but I presume they will all agree they came here for business, and I would suggest that we have an evening session to-night to begin at eight c'clock, if that is agreeable to the gentlemen of the Couvention. Mr. Allan's suggestion to hold an evening session was agreed to unanimously. Tha Conference adjourned at i p.m. to a.3.) p.m. Mtt 37 WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON. The ^-^^""J— ,V::r/ose for luncheon we had under discussior. the President Ames— \v net! we di Another question was suggested questions of trade relations w.thin the ^'"P^^^' ™^ ^^^^^^ ^e included, and it ''^^*^f rfharr"qlitior:fd:fenL'Sou?d Sfeft for separate consideration^ was ruled that the ..*« », > I -'^xLL p.:"^"Firo7d;;r.rsrt"u 'orotr,So='^: i 2S°»isS.="™d^'rSe:d^nrrse^^^^^^^^ haadiag ,s p,o.,dad to, ,ha, ralaJon and I have no doubt we will have a full dlMussioo. ■^'^^ M*R WiLKiE-Then, I will withdraw I'.l my amendments. ^. ., ^ M::p'r1.x GaLpe-Theam^ndnient^ conveys the idea that we are going to Englandhat m handt^as^ .^ ^^^ ^ to be able to keep our own K^^^^'V^n Tore the difFerenTB^^^ before the new question. - is a question that has been 1 f ,°7 'f ^ 2'""^"^ Tfact ten years ago Sj'th'lTot^offili'M^^^^ -d^'la^^h^af'r™S«.irf£.5lir i^, r eX -a'Tav f d "f ^a^ J ^ ««' tSt^^, forty different Chambers of Commerce >n f^jor of hat way o^ see 8 | « oer cent, we have given on imports, we should be allowed "^ o*^/*^ P" ''%„♦ lll^h would correspond to the duty which is now '7°f ^ ""i^^/.^ 4^„ ^H believe, sir, that Canada is to be i" '»>«"«" /"'""J^n^JStsfoVthe future 38 power in the nearest possible future ; we believe, sir, that whenever Canada increases in wealth and in power the Empire will be benefited by that increase, and when we go to England to make a fair proposition we go there as busmess men. We do not go there to exact what is not fair. We say to these gentlemen : " We eive you thirty-three per cent., give us five or six per cent., whatever it is, on wheat and food productions which we can sell to the British Empire. As was well said by our friend from Manitoba, we have in our West the wheatfields of the world, which will in so many years be the great source where those who have no bread will find it at a cheap rate. The future of Canada is such that we will rival the United States to a certain extent in this way. We will have our htty millions there in our great northern country, and then, sir. I wish to know if Canada, with its fifty millions, will not be a . pport to the British Empire ? I wish to know whether those little Islands that possess all those terri- tories that we see on the maps of the British Empire, have not attained to-day the highest power they can get, if they do not depend on the colonial resources to extend that power, and if Australia and Canada and South Africa are not to be the Greater Britains of the future ? Sir, when we go there and ask those gentlemen to give us a small preference so that we may sell our wheat and food products to the British people in preference to those wh'- are unfr'<:ndly to Great Britain, why should they look upon us as having a policy which should not be adopted ? Why, sir, the Government of this country to-day is eoinc there for that purpose ; we are met here preciselv to support the position which the Prime Minister of Canada is to take in the Conference in London. He has told us in parliament that he is going there to ask th t closer commercial jla- tions should exist between the Mother Country and the Colonies, and how can those closer relations exist otherwise than by mutual preference ? We have not hesitated to give thirty-three per cent., although our wool manufacturers are suffering by it. and why should not Great Britain allow a paltry five cents a hundredweight on our wheat and other cereals so as to give us a small preference, and make just that little advance of price which will allow us to sell our products m Great Britain in competition with Russia and the other countries which are not always friendly to Great Britain ? I say, sir. the position that we take on this question in the Province of Quebec is unanimous, and we say that if we are subjects of Great Britain, if we are subjects of the Government of England, if we are subject to be at any moment attacked as part of the Empire, and if we are subject to eo to the field of battle and defend that flag, the least Great Britain can do is to return the compliment and give us a preference when we go there with goods of first aualitv We say we ought to have a preference, instead of buying goods from foreign nations which are hostile to Great Britain. That is the position we take in the Province of Quebec, and there are no *wo opinions about it. If we wait till Great Britain gives a preference, and do r-t ask for it, we will wait a long time. Sir it is the policy of Great Britain to aevelcp Canada. What would be the result to the Empire if that trouble with the United States had not taken place one hundred years ago ? Do you mean to say that it' to-day the United States were Dart of the Empire that the Empire would not benefit by it ? Why the Empire would be twice as powerful as it is today. The future of Canada is quite equal to that of the United States, and in fifty years we will have our millions here, and I say those millions will be a power for Great Britain, and I say Great Britain cannot keep her position as a leading nation among the European nations unless she sup- ports her Colonies, unless she makes these nations like herself, and unless we have the power, and people and wealth and everything else, to take part in the future history of Great Britain. That is the position we take, and I am surprised there should be some opinions different from that. The resolution -repared by the Montreal Board of Trade meets the case exactly, and I think we ought to be unanimous in adopting that resolution. We, the Chamber of Commerce of Montreal, presented that resol-tion to the meetings of the Chambers of Commerce of the Emp' 3 in i8q2, we discussed it there fully, and we still stand by that resolution, which was originated in our Board, and we are proud of it, because it is one policy for not only Canada but for Australia, and I hope for all the British Empire. (Applause). 39 Quebec resolutions there seems to be a ^"'•°»"'«yj, '^ f^ Canada. I am sorry to ?nt,al duty that -a^f ^aVLrv tXar my frienUsuggS as a reason why we see any reference to it , 1 a-TV^orry to hear my me ^*^^^^^ Englishmen will say, should go there and bargain^ U we present sucn J ^^^, ^^, ^ Uttfe » Now, 've understand the reason for the mUK ^^^^^ ^^^^ ^ ^^.^^ sprat thrown m to catch a whale. 1 J°" ^ a Vacious thing which has brought What Sir Wilfred Launer d.d .''^^^^^PP^^i^'y^^d w^^^^^^ reward; but to excellent results m *rade. ^"i;!'g°°L*k;e ought noltl mention it at all. In suggest it as a actor ^^^ a c°n»ract 1 th.nk we ought^ ^^^^^^ demanding free trade reference to going to bngland wun a '""= t- ^ ^ consider we are all I think we will have to "J^Je haste sowly- /^^^'^J ^^7 This is a huge ques- here of one °P™/ °°\,\^^'b;^:„^^^^^^^ Commerce in any Colony. It. has tion which cannot be settiea oy any ^ » , torpalizethat we are commercially got to be settled by bringing the English P^°Pj\^° '^'^^^^^^ ^^^ the only way to ?ight as a matter of political economy and m no gh^^^^^^ demUtrate ac'-mplishthat « by an exhaustive commission wmcnwmoe g.^^^ ^^ to thel:nglish people that as a "-^^^J^f i^^^ln not^ but pay t' *^'lS\lv''rth'ink th\°MoS resl 'he' c'ase. and 1 think when them financially, l ttiinK tne monuMi _„_;„:__ *i,e Engl sh people cannot you present that resolution and ask ^9^ .%,^°^?i'f^'°^;i^Sg for a conimission, you graciously refuse you a commission ; but;^^7''°°"' Scfl d^^^^ you will talk try to enforce upon them your '^7^°i,,''^"„l" ^' */°„ "J ngW get in the small to a stone wall. I believe as prudent business ™«"' "" "y^° Vhich you believe to edge of the wedge and when you h^ve f ted V^ur Po ^ti«^^^ -Jic „ investigation, ^iT^:^^^^^^^^^^^^ the English people, we will get our *^''''^';'d EssoN''pres,dent La Chambre de Commerce. . Montreal-As Presi- dent ^f\?ctX^^r;cl^^^^^ am glad to '-e the priv ege of 1.^^^^^^^ to the very interesting discussion which has taken place m.smg.^ ^^^^ F- ^^ wii: be continued for some t''"^- J^f^.,?"^'";^" uesl^^^ of the differential and to asking the people of this country ^°be taxed jDr r,ng tear up all the resolutions we ^ave bearing on that subject, a ^ -J^'^ pass a resolution requesting S'r W.lf ed Laurier ^^ ^^^^^^ pursue the same policy he pursued at the JuDuee. "= "' • . ^ , .^ voluntar,)- gave the British people a P^f f"^°^« °!^3U- Tha J^^^^^^^^^ J they are willing to -me a^d treat on ^^^J ^^'^ i^^^d^b's eso^uTion ,^nt Sir Wilfred that have accrued to Canada, ^he people benmat ^.^ ^^ ^^^ ^^ Launer to go over there and '"'^oduce a new PO"cy. ' > -^j_jhat is practi- Chamberlain to tax the people in England for °"^ ^ej^^^t^ '^^^^^ 'f Relieve cally what It means-let in our gram free but tax \hejt'\ej bellows. ^^^^^^ Mr. Wilkie-s contention was "ght if they tax themselv^ ^^^ ^^^.^ ^^^^^^ Sto'^e.p"fkS up"ttr'na;;' ^-/'^ThTSh^'p^eo'^rwSd taxed twenty Le t'o ^^^^^^^^^S'^'^'^^^^^^^i^S^ 3"d^"e:ur"in7thrcSis!s1nd^h"^^^^^^ be cursing the Englishmen. 4" (Laughter.) Those good people from Montreal have not said who was going to get the benefit of this preference. My candid opinion is that Mr. J. P. Morgan, or some other shareholder, will be laughing iu his sleeve at the preference, while his ships will be carrying off the whoie thing. Those people, I presume, suppose that the farmers of this country will get the benefit. I simply give you my opmion, and my opinion is that the steamships will get the benefit of the preference, and the people will be taxed. Simply let Sir Wilfrid Laurier do what he did before, let him say to the English people : " We want to trade with you. we are perfectly satisfied you are treating us fairly, you are giving us the same terms you are giving other people, and we have no right to ask you for anything better." That kind of policy will bring us the good will and good feeling of th": people of England. That is what we want, and that is the way to bring about trade, not by dickering. " You tax your people for me, and I will tax my people for you." That kind of policy may do all right in Europe, but it will not do here. The people are not very likely to have their imports taxed to keep up the British Government, and the EngHsh people are not going to pay a penny on their loaf in order to please the colonists. The result will be the direct opposite of what we have now. I again contend that the policy introduced by Sir Wilfrid Laurier is the true policy of this country. I simply give you those two little ideas as they appear to me, and I would strongly ask this Conference not to go too far in this matter. The last paragraph of the resolution of the Toronto Board to appoint a commission may be all right enough. I think it would, but do not place our Government in the humiliating position of going over there and asking Mr. Chamberlain to dicker with us about putting a little tax on his people for our benefit, and a little tax on our people for his benefit. It is selfish and humiliating, and as a member of this Conference I would earnestly ask our Premier not to place himself or his Government in any such position. The second preference given by Great Britain to Canada was the question of grain. In 1826 the Corn Laws were inaugurated, which practically prohibited the im portation of grain into Great Britain. In 1842 those Corn Laws were changed so far as Canada was concerned; and the duty was reduced from five shillings a quarter to one shilling a quarter. I want to point this out to show we should be careful in considering this question to see we do not become the football of the parties of Great Britain. What was the result in 1842 of the reduction? All through Canada there was a great building of mills, so tht the grain of the United States could be imported into Canada and ground here a.id sent under the preference to Great Britain. I am not old enough to remember the result \ hen th'S was abro- gated, when Cobden brought in his law in 18.16, but it is a matter of history that when this law was brought forward there were great riots in Montreal resulting in the burning of the Customs House there. Our friend from Winnipeg has brought out in a careful and exact manner the possibilities of Canada supplying the grain for England. May I be allowed to say that I think this would be a source of great weakness for the British Empire if it should ever result in Canada ever being in a position to supply the whole of the grain. Great Britain's strength now lies in the fact that she imports her grain from dififerent parts of the world, from Argentines, Russia, India, United States, Canada. We all know that the man who sells is a great deal more anxiius to sell than the other man is to buy, and the man who sellr is responsible for the delivery of his goods. If Great Britain were to depend on Canada if there was a war all the nation that was at war with England would have to do would be to cut off the supply from Canada; but when England is now depending upon all parts of the world for her supplies, a nation at war with her would have to cut off all the sources of supply, and it IS inconceivable there should be a union of nations sufficient to cut off supplies from all sources. We cannot conceive that Germany, Russia and the United States would join together to cut off supplies from Great Britain. What would the result be, supposing there was a war with Russia and the United States was asked to join } The United States would say : " This is our grain, we are not jioing to destroy the whole of our western states by preventing a supply of g'-Jn 10 England. Then, it has been pointed out that Canada has given a preference to Irr«f Britain • and so she has. But what do we and as the result of that prefer- jGreat '"?»'" •"° ^° Canada bought from Great Britain 40 per cent., and from ru"i i.^%tafes .irDer cent r in 1895. from Great Britain 29 per cent., from the n'S l?a?es» per^cent.rin 1898; from Great Britain 25 per cent, from he nT5 Itates^ per cen" 1899. f?om Great Britain 24 per cent., from the United K«^ oer Snr We see. therefore, that in spite of a preference of 33* P« r \ ,t, nroDortion of trade which we have been doing in the way of purchasing cent..theproportonoi tr«ie ^ „, ^ile that with the United States has from Great Britain j^»f, .^^" ''"7i,o^^^a, the duties collected have been greater been increasing. I could gojtoj^ow^ ^^.^^.^ ^^^^ ^^^^ the United proportionatelyon those goods c^^^^^^ ^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^ for either the j States. I,<^"i"/""d° n, ^ think some other motion should be brought r°*TH°a li^ uZ^r wiwf Laurier the consideration of this question in all I forward "Jf "« "^lould not go forward from this Conference that we are com- "It'^t^^DrXenUal trade I liave a resolution here which I would suggest as an Sreat Britain andihe Colonies to investigate the steps to mcrease the trade of the Empire." Mr a ^ Kemp. M.P., Toronto-It is very difficult in discussing the question , L«nHa7 trade to say anything by which one -nay not traverse the ground l^rdrSneo ef^any7me7espefiali'y here in this City of TorooU,. The dis^ aireaay go"" " „„pction here to-dav has been engthened. it seems to me, by the L™aUhe'r hrebeen soTany'^^^^^ we have not been dealing so much wth the merits of the question as in objecting to this thing and the other hS I take it the Montreal resolution will be accepted with the part of the Ti^n;tn resolution tacked 01 to it. Permit me to say I do not see the necessity of Jec ting flctsfrmakYng add esses members are at liberty to recite any number of facts but it s;ems to me^nnecessary to recite facts that P«°P'« "« [*J"£,;!;,t T waL fflad the Winnipeg members put their case in such a way hat the Conference Ldd fgree wUh them. %r. Bell of Winnipeg raised a very important question i^d^nisrurnS^-^r^ Sn^Su^!:;.^^^ ^- s ^^^^ -r^f^^hS^^t^s rs^^f "^^ E wil^happe'n unless a proper policy is pursued, and I a in sorry that no es lu tion bearing on that subject is before the Congress. The ^"^5''°"^°/ P^^^ff""^' rade has been very often discussed, and more discussed in this country thaJ many other oart of thrWre. because I noticed in London the delegates from Australia and from New ZeTland were not posted on this question so well as the delegates ?rom Canada were l"is^o. a theoretical question, and we must look at it from a broadminded "sUndpofnt. We do not wa.>t to be put in ^^^ P-^-^'.-.^^^^^^I manv members of this Conference have stated, of supplicating the British people ^ndasS something from them for which we are not going to give any return and Ta/reewitli my friend. Mr. Wilkie, when he stated there were other questions whTh were in" mately connected with this question, which we should have the rouraee to face There is no chance of our people in Canada from one end of the countfyto the other, disagreeing with each other in ^^g^-^-l »° ""^X oTer" Hons because the country is bound together, each portion trading with the other, he West wTth the^E^^^^^^ with Ontario, and Ontario with Quebec. Nova Srotia and New Brunswick-we are all bound together as a commercial un.on, and we mtght af^dlfas con'mercial men. be willing to discuss these questions on their 42 merits, and no matter what our differences of opinion may be there is no harm in considering them. The question of defence is one that is gomg to be discussed under a separate heading. It is opportune now to again review these questions, because of the new conditions which have been brought about through the war in South Africa. I think it would be well if we could discuss this question in a way that would show to Great Britain we were in sympathy with her, and are willing to assume our share of our own protection — mind you, I do not say we should in any sense delegate uur powers to the British people. I think we should show the British people that the whole Empire is prepared to stand together in matters of trade, because that is what is going to hold this Empire together, and unless we make some different arrange- ment in future with respect to trade than in the last 50 years— not saying the con- ditions in the last 50 years have not suited the time — I cannot see how the Empire will hold together. It has been said here, and properly so, that it seemed incon- sistent that we should ask a preference, or that we should be prepared to talk about preferential trade while we were absolutely and to all intents and purposes a protectionist country. The situation in reference to that particular point is this, to my mind : that we should be willing in this country to give Britain a preference on all commodities which her competitors produce, but which we are not prepared to produce. We, I take it, are not willing to jeopardize the interests of this country in respect of this preferential trade ; it would be of no possible advantage to Great Britain to weaken this country in order to strengthen a few people in Yorkshire, England. If we can strengthen this country it will be that much stronger as a member of the British Empire, and, therefore in discussing this question we have that question always before us, and there are a great many commodities which though there might be a Canadian duty imposed, we might give such a preference as will enable us to get those commodities from Great Britain, although a portion of them might be manufactured in Canada. Take the woollen trade. We bring in ten millions of woollen goods into this country yearly ; we cannot expect to produce every dollar's wo th of woollen goods. If by any means whatever our tariff should be so changed as it would alter the imports of woollen goods so that we would produce of the ten millions two or thr^'e or four or five millions more, no doubt Great Britain would receive the advantage with respect to those over Germany and other nations. So with regard to other commodities. The only way we should shut out these commodities would be by a prohibitive tariff, and that will never be put into effect. In regard to the matter of trade and sentiment we must acknowledge that if there were not a great deal of sentiment entering into this question we would not be here discussing this question to-day. It would have been a far easier thing for us some few years ago to have made a preferential arrangement with the United States than it is to-day to make it with Great Britain, because of the fiscal policy of Great Britain. It Was argued in this country some number of years ago that it might be in the interests of Canada to have reciprocity with the United States, perhaps to have unrestricted reciprocity, but sentimentally we turned our faces from them, although geographically it was to our interest to make it ; therefore, sentiment does enter into it, and because we are sentimentally connected with great Britain and with the British Empire we are here discussing these matters to-day, and it is certainly a question well worth discussing whether by any means this country can improve her position by putt ig herself in closer touch with the four hundred millions of people of the British Empire. Mr. E. a. Doolittle, Orillia Board of Trade — I will not go lengthily into this question, although it is a very great one, as is evidenced by the very many resolutions submitted. You will notice that we submit one, and in submitting that I have to state that we look upon this matter in the particular sense of our being one of the great Colonies of the British E;npire, we do not think of Canada merely, but of the Empire, and in looking at the question in that way we eliminate any questions of special and local interest. I therefore must say I will have much pleasure in supporting the main resolution. Mr. Geo, E. Drummond — I did not intend to say anything in this discussion after the remarks of so many able men who are very well posted on this question, but there was a remark made by one of the speakers that I cannot let paas without criticism, namely, that the preferential reduction of 3 } per cent, was approved by liS- 43 everybody in C.n.d.. I ab«,lutely deny that sutej^^^^^^ 'f t^Se^t tf ^I'werTro take a vote on that question right """ >"" ^"" ", -^^^^ many industries in this Ss opinion That F'^'-'^^ «1 ofthe^^^^^^^^ '» »^" »!* ^ country, in fact has Icnocked f"' •°P%°/i"""„trv. That gentleman made a big that ekct with some ind;»st^^^^^^^ I do not mistake in making «»»»;J"iY*"°"^ jhroSgh sympathy and all this nonsense. If believe that business can be increa^throu^ ,^^ .^ ^ ^^ ^^^^ ^o?he? m:n't\orry^«W^^^^^^^ him. \ am in favor of the motion presented by the Board of Trade o^Montreal. ^,i .^ese other resolutions on .h^ pr?gr^ni'a;s";:^d'rrn^rM"o^^^^^^^^^^^^ of Trade resolution is dis- on the prog""' ^^^ ^^ amendment. Mr. YouNG-lt seems scarcely f" V^^^J*^ °^' "^°J^^^^ I would like to considered and the o^^er resolutions of e^^ ^^^ p^^„„ move as an amendment that the resolution ot »"^ r' . ^~» j ^^^^^ -ust like to Exchange be added to 'he Montreal resohitK,n.n^ matter have said state at, while some of th^g^^^^'S'lJn to ttx themselves. 1 contend that so far we are asking the people of Great Bnta n ^o^^" »"f^^^ ^^^^^^ and this proposed as the food products are <=o"«'f ^ there is a tax °n tne J^^ ^^^. ,„ ^^^ „ preference will have 'h^«ff«!;V°lit "^ \„' SarLtelv I would not move it as an ft were possible to de»\ T^^ *^^ "^^Jj K" g^^^^^^^ rbufw^nyluleWoTn't^'d^^^^^^^^^^ Lt'ely I woJd move that this be added to the mam resolution . .. Whereas Grea. Bn.ain has P|»-d -.■TldX°L^a^i,^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Colonies, as well as from ot*"" <:ountnM . ana *°«'^y j vhereas the volume of i, the surest and b«?' "««^» "^.^l"?''!, (^ofoni« (m§ of Can«l. especially) largely immigration to and development of «« Colonies an ^^^^ resources, depends on the encouragement given to develop inei ^ Premier of •Be itrZlved: That this Conference '•^»«*»VGover2ent of ™ Kn the ext«me Canada, to urge most """Bly-Hutv on SS produce in '"' rr " 'r:^p..-My .»a he„ d., no. ^^^^^^^^^^ l^orth West when my time expired Previous y, ^nd 1 warn to y^^^ ^^^ the figures I gave you th|s morning I have m ^y f °f^f ^",,„ „ J 14,000 home- department at Ottawa which shows me ^hat there jav j i,]^^ more of steads granted since the spring of ^9°'' "^^X^S information among gentlemen in the East. Mr. C. N. Bkll. Winnipeg Board of Trade-I regret very m^^^^ of the Chair has excluded us from ^""^/"^'"^^^^[o'trthe Rocky Mountains so rcl^^ iVrire^s^tsThrrnrL^r^^"^^^^^^^^ U determines how 44 much their manufactures will be used. If there was an understanding, which we certainly did not understand, this morning, I think it would be but fair to re-open this question to allow us to bring this up for a separate vote on its own merits. The general preferential resolution moved by the Montreal Board of Trade I think is agreed to by all the western delegates, but the ruling prevents us from supporting that because we have to vote on an amendment to get a specific case brought before the Convention. The general resolution deals with matters to be taken up in the future, but we wish to deal with a matter that is before us and before the Empire to-day. Great Britain has put a duty on wheat, and we want this to apply to foreigners if we can supply her with all the breadstuffs she requires ' consumption. We have come a very long way to atttend this Convention, and ruling of the chair defeats a very large amount of usefulness which we hoped to ^c able to give to the Convention. Let me say we have before the Winnipeg Board of Trade and Winnipeg Grain Exchange to-day an invitation to go to another Convention when we leave this to consider the whole question as to reciprocity in agricultural products between the United States and Canada. We do not want to ship our wheat to the United States to be more or less ground there; we do not want to ship our wheat through the United States channels. If we cannot manu- facture it in Manitoba we want you to do it in Eastern Canada, and if you cannot do it let it be done in Great Britain. We want an arrangement made so that the Englishman will see it is to his advantage either to buy our flour or to buy our wheat and make flour himself. That is entirely difTerent from the general prefer- ence question which we want to support. I would like to see this matter brought up as a separate motion. I would like to hear from the Montreal Board or some other Boards of Trade. Mr. G. E. Drummond — I think the original motion is broad enough to cover the \yinnipeg resolution ; still, we do feel with the Winnipeg gentlemen that the time is opportune to speak specially ai d specifically -.iih regard to grain, and if we affirm the Montreal resolution with the last clause of the Toronto resolution added, we would like to be afforded an opportunity to discuss the Winnipeg resolution separately. Mr. M. C. Ellis, Toronto Board of Trade— I am sure one cannot help but be very much impressed with the remarks of the Winnipeg gentlemen in reference to their resolution, and I am quite sure that all the delegates here wish to take hold of the great opportunity which has presented itself to us in getting preference for our agricultural products in the English market. Canada to-day stands in an irresistible position ; she stands in a position which no other colony stands in, of having given a preference to Great Britain voluntarily, and, therefore, she has a strong and presumptive right in going before the Conference at London and asking for a consideration of the present duties which have been imposed by Great Britain on wheat and flour. What is the position ? England, by taxing wheat and flour, is in the position that if she does not give the Colonies a preference she is really taxing the Colonies, which have given their men for her armies in South Africa, and taxing Canada very heavily indeed. I think this is a very awkward imputation, and I rather think that in the imposition of the duties upon wheat and flour there has been some underlying motive, and that now is the time of our opportunity, and upon this special question we should not on any account lose the great opportunity which is now before us. I am quite sure it is the sense of the gentlemen present here that we should give due prominence to the point raised by the Winnipeg members. President Ames — With your permission I will withdraw the ruling made by the Chair this morning, and simply put to you whether you desire to have the Winnipeg resolution dealt with as a main resolution. Mr. Donnelly, Kingston— Will you allow me to state that we are so much in sympathy with the contention of the Winnipeg gentlemen that if they will notice our subsequent resolution printed in this programme they will see it entirely covers the point they are bringing forward ; but the reason why we on the outside not being so particularly interested in the grain trade join hand in hand with this Montreal I 45 1 .i„n arromoanied bv the clause from the Toronto resolution is that we believe ZflTssoTeXnn its teims that it must be acceptable to every part of th.s that It 18 s° «"°'"' "" J ,, sj^piy states that we are in favor of approaching Conference here p«sent^ H « W ^^,^^,f ^^ ,^^ Colonies. I do not take S"sfr fh"t we are S far Tpa° t from even my friend Mr. Conlon. He says we wa„, '• J '.krr«J Britain and we only differ a little as to how to brmR that abou , Ind wrcan^«vl St question entirely in the hands of this Conference which will thortW meet in GreaT Britain. It must be patent to every one that there must be shortly "^"\ '" ™i J j,e„ after that Conference comes to a conclusion or decision ""Tolh/t^sbSlt Thifmu^^^^^^ that matter before the Imperial Government, fhe Colon esSukeacti^" themselves on these questions, and. therefore. I cannot lee that we could do anything better at th.s stage th.n pass this general resolm.on and I cannot see that it is inconsistent to pass any subsequent resolution print.don this programme which may point out specifically any product. It was agreed that the Winnipeg resolution should be taken up as a separate resolution, and on this understanding Mr. Young withdrew his amendment. Mr. Chown. Kingston-I should like to bring up two or three facts fhat have not been brought out in the course of the debate on this question. This is not the fir tpreferencf that has been discussed between England and theColon.es Before thTwar of i8i2, and during the continuance of it. England, in order to help her navv out a duty on all lumber-especially aimed at the Baltic ports-com.ng into Great Britain Then she gave Canada a preference, and exempted her from the ^Deration of this duty. The result was there was a great increase of trade fro.u cSa which continued up to 1819. when the British gave notice that this pre er- ence was*o be withdrawn gradually, and the result was that a conference of the Boards of TrTde was called in Montreal in the year .820, and ,t is most significant fo read °he circular sent out by that con.erence as to the arguments then piesented why'his preferendal trade should be continued. They are very closely summarized in a resolution of the Montreal Board of Trade : . , v. "That it would tend to develop colonial enterprise, it would result in emigration, and the results would be to small it would not affect the British exchequer Mb 1. D. Flavelle, Lindsay Board of Trade-I have listened with very great pleasure to the discussion, and I =hall support the Mont.eal "solution. I think fhe Stratford gentlemen who moved the amendment are aside from he facts whe. thev state we in any way go to England asking for alms. I cannot see anything J tC Montreal reUutb^'n to put Canada in that position. The resolution merely point! out that it is in Imperial interests and in the interest of Great Britam herself fo g ve a preferential tariff to the Colonies. We are not asking them to do 1 Thfre is no doubt that if Great Britain would grant this rreferent.al arrangement it would be of decided benefit to Canada. A gent eman from bau t Ste. '^'ar e O r^ McKay) said, we want to get British capital. Is there any better way of getting EnSca ,i al than by preferential trade ? I do not see any differencp between fevebping our mines and our agriculture. I think if we could get capital to^e her to forward our agricultural interests it would be the best means of getting capitalists o invest in mining. We have in Sault Ste. Marie an example of what capital can do in developing our resources. That industry has shown capital has come in with tremendous bounds. Develop that industry and the English people who are s ow to take advantage of any opportunity, will soon realize that Canada 'S a capital place for investments. I am glad we are to have the Winnrpeg resolution discussed separately, because we are at the present time very much interested m gf «'"g ^ P^f . ference or our agricultural products. A few years ago und.r ro '=>';^""'«ta"«^^^^°"^ you persuade England to tax foodstuffs, but now they h.x.'v ctually done U and we have no communication tiiat the present government have any intention of rescind- ing that resolution, and I certainly think it is an opportune time «« 'X"',S them the advantages to b.-^ derived from Great Britain associating with the colonies in this matter. We may not have such an opportumty for many years to come, i- do not see why we should be prevented from present.ng our case simply because t .s in our own int«^rest. I shall support the main resolution, although personally 1 would rather have the portion taken from the Toronto resolution eliminated. I would rather the suggestion of a commission should be made by the people in England. Mr. John Gaskin, Kingston Board of Trade— I am strongly in favor of the resolutions of the Montreal and Toronto Boards of Trade. I did not intend to speak here at all to-day on this subject until I heard my friend Mr. Conlon. Mr. Conlon and myself have been in the same line of business for a great many years, and I was a little surprised at the stand he took. I have gone down to Ottawa with deputations for many years, and the ministers were always willing and pleased to hear suggestions from business men, and when they found the majority of the business men in this country were in favor of something it was their business, as representing the people, to do what they desired. Mr. Conlon says Sir Wilfred Laurier should be allowed to do what he did before. As I understand it, he went over there and reduced the tariff. That pleased some and did not please others. There is a woollen mill in Kingston, and I understand that since that preference was given to Great Britain that woollen mill has not paid one cent, and those men gave me to understand that if that continues they will likely close up. If that is so there are other places that have mills, and I say the sooner something is done to change it the better. Mr. Conlon says in getting a preference on wheat in the Old Country it would be the means of increas:i.,< the price of coal. I do not understand it, I cannot see how it is going to affe^' the price of coal. I have been in connection with a firm in Montreal, the largest firm of its kind in this country, and the President of the Com- pany died two years ago ; he was the largest grain buyer in this country, and he always gave me to understand that if the time arrived when England would give Canada a preference on breadsluffs it would build up this country. Mr. Jacques Blreal', M.P., Three Rivers Board of Trade— I have hstened with a great deal of interest, and, I take it, we are all agreed that we want closer trade relations with the Empire, and we want Great Britain to give a preference to the products of her Colonies. It seems to me the only thing we are not agreed on is the form of the resolution we wish to pass. Sir, we do not want to go to Britain with our hats down ; we, who have been able to give without being asked, ought to be able to ask without begging. On the other hand, we do not want to be- dicta- torial ; we must not forget that England has her policy, and we must not go there and say : " Now, we want you to give us a preference on our exports, we want you to tax all products except those coming from the Colonies." I think the Montreal resolution is a little too broad to accord with my views. I would sooner adopt the Stratford resolution. We do not want to go there and say : " Because we have given you 33J per cent, we want it ba-k ; " we do not want to go there and say : " Because oui boys have shed their blood on Afric's soil we want compensation." We want to go there as part of the Empire and say : " We have a business proposition for you, we think it is in the interests of the partnership that whenever you see fit to impose a duty upon any product that you exempt the Colonies." I would sooner substitute for the words, " giving the products of her Colonies a preference," the words, " exempt the products of her Colonies whenever she imposes a tariff." Mr. McFarlane, Ottawa — It seems to me a great deal of the discussion this afternoon would have been in better place wi the resolution that is to be brought up by the Board of Trade of Kingston ; a great deal of what has been said might just as well have been left until that occasion when you will have to discuss m what way the preference is to be obtained, but in the meantii le what we have to do is to declare for or against a trade preference within the Empire, and I think we might hasten matters a little bit by confining ourselves to that general question, and by voting at once on the aisendment which has been proposed to the Montreal resolution. Mr. John Bowman, London Board of Trade — I might say that the representa- tive of the London Board of Trade is unavoidably absent, i was asked to take his place at tlie last moment, and I could not, therefore, enter into this discussion, but the general opinion of the Board of Trade of London was in sympathy with just such a resolution as that of the Montreal Board of Trade, because it is broad in its I 47 ca li ie 1 ne'of lit resisunce that i, with nations --V'%^:^?re tff on'e° Dunne the ast year the English speaking countries purchased more than one haUol all our exports. Further, it states, tliat Great Britain purchased *5f7.S«6, oi o goo^s froTthe United States during the fiscal year «"?«" °^Canada the only consideration that seemed to be in their minds was a considcrauon of Br tain giving a preference to her colonies, without considering or ^Plff^^f *° ^""'''^iSv erfecti upon Britain herself it might tend to prejudice them still f"^*^":*"^ .^^^^^y longer the movement which is at presen mder way. It seems to me a sliRht change irr word or .0 could introduL the of mutuality NVe h- - PreP-ed. n mi : .ii grounds. ; m^i^ lecogn.zc t..af •— jt-- i-' ■' 7 / le in tie resolution, i would suggest and would move that the e a small committee of say three or five members to consider this - amendments, and to submit to this Congress a resolution making unuor cha hey may think fit in accordance with the sentiments expressed. be r ;^^31S^.'J£^ 48 Mr. Jarvis, St. John, N.B. — I rise to second the motion which has just been made. If the St. John Board of Trade have not expressed themselves very fully heretofore there has been one reason, and that has been this, that before notice was received of this meeting, we had already placed ourselves on record with regard to this matter. I have before me a copy of the resolution adopted by the St. John Board of Trade as far back as the beginning of last April. That resolution was based on the idea that I think is the correct one, that any action of this sort should be reciprocal, and that we should not look selfishly to obtain an advantage from the Mother Country or expect anything in the way of a quid pro quo, but we should look to the development of Imperial interests, and cultivate a better sentiment and a better opinion on the part of the Mother Country towards ourselves, and on our part a better sentiment and warmer feeling towards the Mother Country. We shall vote for the Montreal resolution with such minor amendments as may be suggested. The committee, I suppose, will be drawn from the Boards of Trade which have already submitted propositions and we shall not be represented on that committee, but I consider it will be well to adopt some proposition which will be in the best interests of the Empire. The amendment to the amendment and the amendment to the main motion on being put to the Conference were lost. The main resolution as presented by the Montreal Board of Trade, with the last clause of the Toronto Board of Trade reso- lution, was carried. President Ames — The next question before the the Conference is the resolution to be submitted by the Kingston Board of Trade. Mr. a. Donnelly, Kingston Board of Trade — I desire to say, on behalf of this resolution, that the resolution which has been earned by this Conference has dealt with part of the subject covered by our resolution, and therefore it will not be necessary to move our resolution in its entirety. I will move this resolution : Resolved : That this Conference is of the opinion that as our Government, notwithstanding their repeated efforts and remonstrances, have failed to secure the abolition of this special duty imposed by Germany upon our cereals, countervailing duties should be levied by our Government upon German goods coming into Canada. This resolution is so very plain that it is not necessary for me to say a word except to call the attention of the Conference to the fact that Germany has at present a favored nation clause, and just as soon as Canada gave the preferential trade to Great Britain, the German Government abrogated their preference clause so far as Canada was concerned ; it is still in force with regard to Great Britain. This resolution simply asks that while that state of affairs exists, we ask out Government to do likewise and give them a little dose of their own medicine. Mr. M. C. Ellis, Toronto Board of Trade — I take pleasure in seconding the motion made by the gentleman from Kingston. This question of German tariff is one of considerable importance to the people of Canada. By oar giving preference to the Motherland, Germany has taken nffence and has singled out Canada specially, and has imposed a prohibitive tariff upon Canadian grain. Whilst Germany has singled out Canada in this specific and particular manner no other country in the world has done so. It is a trade that is of great importance to Canada, and not only is it a trade of great importance to Canada, but the principle involved is a very important one to Canada. If in giving the preference to our Motiierland we are to be treated by other countries in the same way, and we are to stand this without protest, where is the thing going to end? Now, gentlemen, in regard to the export of grain, I find that our exports to-day are practically nil ; this prohibitive tariff, amounting to an aver- age of ten cents a bushel, has entirely closed the German market against Canadian cereals ; and what is the position with regard to our imports from Germany ? We are year by year increasing our purchases from Germany, so that Germany has no grievance or cause for offence to Canada. If, after giving a preference to the Mother Country, Germany has increased her trade instead of diminishing it, she has therefore no right to enact a prohibitive tariff against us. I find, in 1898, we im- ported from Germany to the extent of five and a half million dollars, and in 1900 that it increased to eight and a half million dollars, while all the grain we shipped in 1900 I 49 Germany has meted out to ".«; ./" '"^7 ana 1090. j^ j^^g, mUHon bushels of of wheat. So you see it has practically snm ""= " . ^^^ Canadian grain was the position in regard to PorUand I find m i897 and i^»^ ^^^ ^^J ^^ shipped amou„tm| to one -^^^^"^J^^^l, he conditions have entirely changed shipped from a country «»^><=h/''f *'J'°'"^^%Tf,"ycially ^^^ out Germany Canada exacts upon the 7?°/'^ °fiff ™^S^,„ JJ' hlS^^^^^^^ to the utmost as having taken a P^*!"^" "s > he toittfon ' We find that our Minister of the Trade by the Canadians. What is the position . ""= "" matter and has done his best, of Commerce has been "P^^t^^'j^Sf^^^i" ier^me^^^ fhey have done their We have nothing to censure the ^""""XrThrhave repeatedly remonstrated best to bring about a change m this ""^"^^"^ J^^^i^J^p^slble to oLa.^ a redress, with the Imperial authorities ^"'l »'*^^, J°°^Xa ^ ,eK a^^^^^^^ »" the and seeing they have found Uimpos^^^^^ Lt'SnVdf should take a step and impose nfluence possible, I think tnat 11 '=^"me i"ai Germany. The goods which countervaUingdut.suponthe^oodsc^^^^^^^^ ry\Te^^ds^XchL^mfJr^ar^ sees her trade increasing, and ^^l^'' , panada after the r^^^^^ ^^ she has made in a friendly »«ve no authority for stating it, but from what I know of the various parts of Germany, and from having seen the depots from which their machines are distributed, I believe I 5» -.u- .u- n„ori, in Qavinjy that the Massev-Hams Company distributes in am within the "^"'' J." ^^^'f^^^^^^ Now.it SoT/Se' «t°h«' a s'ev^? blow u^n tHaf one industry (or instance, if hasty legisla- S wh^ch mijht be the result oMhe action of 'this Conference would cut that off fromusasac,,y ^^^^ ^^^^ impressed with the idea that in order to KTKSde'^ the%o^?.Sl^^^^^^^^ would Wer that most heartily. I second the motion. . Mr M C. Ellis, Toronto-I would make one single remark in answer to i,=t m; a Ian has said. He has mentioned one very prominent industry in this Sy and f ho°d in myhand a resolution passed by the Toronto Board of Trade SinTstrongly with the subject, seconded by the late Mr. Massey himself. •^"Theameniment. on being put to the Conference, was carried President AMBS-The next resolution is that suggested by the VVinmpeg ^°"mr^ c"a." Young, Winnipeg-The resolution proposed by the Winnipeg Grain and Produce Exchange is as follows : Colonic as against the importations from foreign countries. I bee to move this resolution. Mr C. N. Bell. Winnipeg Board of Trade-I beg to second that resolution. I do not"th nk it will be nece^ry, after the general discussion that took place on he general subject of preferential trade, to speak directly to this particular question I have Sn informed to-day that, as a matter of ^^ct, the ar.angements are sa d to have bwn completed already for milling grain in bond m Mmneapolis; I am fold that graTn has been take/down there, and that the Minneapolis pape_rs have epo ted tlat grinding was actually going on, and thev ^"« ^f Jn'lfhKoSuft a^ east-bound on a special privibged rate of ""ying flour-the fi?^*b^ P-^^^^^^/^' the same freight rate as grain, which is not granted by the Canadian railways. They «e huf sending our flou^ for export and getting the benefit of the manufac^ ture of our grain in the United States. On our return to Winnipeg we «'» have to auend as f matter of courtesy in any case, a Convention that is called in the Weste'rn states to discuss the\eciprocity of agricultural products between the UnUed States and Canada. On two occasions during the last twelve years we have tieninvied to attend, and have accepted the invitations as a matter of courtesy, meetings caiiS by n«" °f ^^e United States, in which the question of reciprocUy was dilcussed,a/d after the most courteous reception the, question was always asked us " Well, gentlemen, what have you got to offer us ? Gentlemen, for the first t"me in thirty two ywrs' residence in the Province of Mamtoba we are in a posTt1on"o say?" Now! gentlemen, you have asked us to come here, what have you Sot to offer us^? " (Applause). That is the position that not only extern Canada has feached, but western Canada also. We can get along without the Western Sates, and without reciprocity, (Hear, hear). We do not «f°t our gram to go to Minneapolisandbe milled in bond there.we would sooner give it to the m«° 'nO^tano tocrindV You have a lot of mills down here and we would Ukt to see them all wofk ng If you cannot do that milling down here, we would s^^^^«r hav« " ground in England, but we would sooner see Manitoba grain go ground to feed the Br tish people direct, and put good British pluck into them with British goods. There is no reason why we should not do it, and there is no reason m the world why the If \l J: 52 grain should be taken outside the Empire, and by special rates, a foreign country should be allowed to beat us out of our own trade. When we go down to Minnea polis to meet these gentlemen, we will discuss this subject in all its bearings, and we would like to be able to say t(f them, " Gentlemen, already the business men of Canada, from Victoria to Halifax, have had a meeting and this question incidentally came up, and they have said, 'We would sooner have it sent to Great Britain. If you can offer us anything better than what we expect to get from Great Britain for that grain, let us hear it, and we will consider it as a business proposition.' " Mr. McFarlane, Ottawa— The resolution asks that this Conference requests the Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier to urge most strongly upon the Government of Great ^ Britain the extreme advisability of arranging the import duty on agricultural pro- | duce into Great Britain, so that a preference is given to the said products imported 1 from Canada and other Colonies, as against importations from foreign countries. I presume that refers to the recently imposed duties on grain and flour. The resolu tion wants us to counsel Sir Wilfrid Laurier to advocate the giving up of this duty so far as the Colonies are concerned. It seems to me we are asking Sir Wilfrid Laurier to do a tning he cannot possibly do, because there is not the slightest probability of its being granted by the Government of Great Britain, a government which lias in times past refused to give a preference on the wine of Australia and ihe sugar of the West Indies. Is it likely to rescind this legislation in favor of a war tax ? Is it hkely to do so on the recommendation of this Conference or Sir Wilfrid Laurier ? I do not think so. It is a very ill-advised thing to ask Sir Wilfrid Laurier to do anything of that sort ; it would be asking Great Britain to abolish it. The question is coming up to day ; it is being debated between the Liberals and the Conservatives there. Mind you, I have always been in favor of Great Britain granting a preference to her Colonies, but I really do not think it should be dons in this way. It is putting it in the most awkward way you possibly can. I do not think it would be possible to accomplish anything in that way, and I think it is imposing a heavy burden on Sir Wilfrid Laurier. There is a more excellent way. There is no use in confining ourselves to a low plane, and asking for such a trifle as this, which would only affect Canada more particularly. I sup- pose it affects Australia slightly, and the other Colonies scarcely at all. It does not affect India. What we want to do is to propose something and ask Sir Wilfrid Laurier to propose something, that will benefit the whole Empire, not only Canada, but all the other Colonies, and I beg, Mr. Chairman, to move this amendment to the resolution that has been proposed by the gentlemen from Winnipeg : That the representatives of Canada at the Coronation Conference should be respectfully urged to exert their influence in favor of the imposition in all divisions of the Empire of a five per cent, ad valorem duty (ov3i and above their various tariffs) on all importa- tions from foreign countries, as a step towa-r's the establishment of preferential trade within the Empire, and in the direction of Inter-British Free Trade. What I propose is, that instead of suggesting that we interfere with the local conditions of Great Britain, there should be an alteration of the taxation. Great Britain has not asked us to make our tariff in any way to suit her, and I do not see why we should go over there and ask what is proposed here. Mr. Wilkie, Toronto— I should like to know if this is not a new suggestion entirely that Mr. McFarlane is making? The proposition from Winnipeg has nothing whatever to do with this. This is a new motion. | President Ames — I think that is a new question. j Mr. a. S. Goodeve, Rossland, B.C.— I have very much pleasure in endorsing the resolution of the Winnipeg Board. I will not detain this Conference except to mention one point that it seems to me has not been brought out during this entire discussion. I may be wrong, but it occurs to me in this way; Great Britain has already imposed a duty on foodstuffs, and all we are asking in this resolution is to say that she shall give a preference to her Colonies in the enforcing of that tariff or duty. Now, far from necessarily increasing the price of foodstuffs to the British consumers it occurs to me it might possibly reduce the cost. If a duty is applied to all the Colonies and all the countries alike then there will be simply a competition mh 53 ,f the variou, nations of the earth, plus the duty, but if Great Britain removes the Mutv with regard to her Colonies the result will be simply that foreign countries who Ch To compete with the Colonies will have to reduce the price ol their pro.luce to lrr.,HrU^ni. hat that there will be a tendency to reduce the price 1 believe that Srreqm^rLvery en'co^^^^^^^^ in opening up the Great West, and 1 have much oleasure in endorsing the resolution. , . . , ' Mr C B Watts, Toronto Board of Trade-I endorse every word that has been utteTed by the members of the Winnipeg delegation, and our western members In refe Ince to^his question, and I w.l! not take up your time urther ban to call lour anention to the fact in connection with the statements that have already l>een Ke a to the tendency of the mills in the west to get the Manitoba wheat to Rrmd Tnd ship to Great Britain, that within the last two months an arrangement has been arrived at apparently by the steamship lines running from the American ports, by Ihrh on Canadian flour shipped from Canadian mills a rate of freight of 2 cents per KHr^Tnounds was charged higher on Canadian flour than on American flour. T^e way'^^^ey a\nve^^ this : they gave their agent in Canada instructions ia^^n all shipments from Canadian mills they should charge the ocean rate of freUh° wh ch was r -oted from Montreal. At the time that these instructions were SsS Ind for a long time afterwards, the rate of freight that was then quoted from Mor real was 2 cents a hundred pounds higher than was quoted from New York the resuUwas^hat there was a direct discrimination against the Canadian mills of 4 cents a barrel on Canadian flour shipped by any Ariierican port but he same Lur ground in Minneapolis out of Manitoba wheat could be shipped direct through ?o the Old Country and have that preference in the Old Country markets which we 4re excluded from. I think that fact alone is of sufiicient weight to direct this II Conference to support in the strongest manner po^ible the resolution which has been presented by the Winnipeg Board of Trade. There is a great deal niore that couK saTd on this subject, but I think the facts that have already been stated are sufficient to strengthen every delegate in his intention to support this resolution. The resolution was carried unanimously. President AMES-The next resolution is that of Mr. Hatheway, seconded by Mr. Holland. D I J . Th.t h.. nreferential dutv rebate ol 33K P«r ""'• "O* alio**'' °" »" merchandise ''"''"' mpoTted f?om'"SBrita1n%"ould onlf ^p^y «hen ^-^f-;}' ^ JK'^,^m° ranada throush Canadian ports, which change will greatly stimulate the direct steam- STp «rvicesZw^„ Great^ri.ain and Canada, and will also tend to strengthen Cana- dian national sentiment. Mr W F Hatheway— I had the pleasure this morning of speaking for some few tn nutes upon this question, and so I think it will be my privilege not to speak on it long this afternoon. Allow me to say this resolution is m the interests of the dtyo! Quebec, largely of the city of Montreal, the growing city of Sydney, the clly of. Halifax, and also my own city of St. John. I beg leave to move the resolution. , , ,,... . Mr. Holland. Montreal-I have only to say a very few words in addition to what 1 said this morning. It is quite natural preferential trade should be given to ToSs imported directly into Canadian ports. A large amount of money has been f ^endeTfor our harbors, canals and railways, and the navigation between M on real and the Gulf is now in such a state that larger steamers are con.mg this way than ever t^fore. so why should Canadian trade go through American ports while we have ports in winter and summer that can receive all Canadian goods? So it is vdth pleasure I second this resolution. Mr. E. a. Kemp. M.P., Toronto Board of Trade-I am in hearty symP^thy with the motives that are behind the resolution which has J"^. been moved and seconded, the idea of shipping Canadian goods through Canadian channels. A great dea is being done to facilitate that end in improving our waterways, railways. Ind buifding canlls. and in docks, and all that kind of thing, and a very large sub- sidy is beinl paid for steamship lines, and we are going ahead along that line. The object which the gentlemen. I take it. have in moving this resolution, is to 5 m 54 further supplement those eflforts. I have, however, to entirely disagree with them in respect of the way in which they intend to supplement the efforts that are being put forward to have merchandise come into this country destined for Canadian consumers through Canadian channels, and Canadian products go through Cana- dian channels, Mr. Hatheway— It does not say anything about exports. Mr. Kemp — I did not mean to have it understood you did ; but our business, the commerce of this country, is between three hundred and fifty and four hundred millions of dollars annually, that is our imports and exports ; it is suggested by the resolution that, on the merchandise that comes into this country which is entitled to a preference, that preference will not be given unless that merchandise comes through a Canadian port. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that the preferential tariff is one thing, that our subsidized steamship lines and the development of onr indepen- dant lines of transportion is an entirely separate question, and that we should not try to nullify the effect of the preferential tariff by any such step as this. A man is bringing in goods from Great Britain, part of those goods come in free, part «f them are subject to a tariff; how is he going to divide his shipment up ? He may find it to his advantage to ship part of his shipment by way of a Canadian port, and part by way of a port by which he would get a cheaper freight rate. Then how are we going to sauare ourselves with our American neighbors on the bonding question, reciprocity in bonding privileges ? The amount of goods which we brought in this last year was $29,509,000 ; a very large quantity of -hose goods came in through Montreal in the open season of navigation, no doubt, and it would place a burden on the merchants of this country in respect to the freight rates they pay, which should not be placed upon them if this resolution were put into effect. I say we should do everything possible to encourage our Canadian ports, we should do everything pos- sible to encourage the port of St. John, and I think our friends from St. John feel a great deal has been done, and a great deal more should be done. I am in favor of encouraging such objects, but I say this is not the way we should encour- age them. This would simply nullify the preference we give. There is a duty on many commodities which come from G-eat Britain of only 5 per cent., and 10 per cent, on others, and this would entirely do away with the preference, because we know how little competition we have to the Canadian ports, especially in the winter time. We ..ope these ports will be Je"eloped, and that we will be able to get equally good rates in the future as we get irom the United States, but some other means should be taken to accomplish the end in view. I should like to ask the attention of the Conference to a resolution adopted by the Toronto Board of Trade, after very serious consideration, in respect to bringing in goods which are subject to preference through Canadian ports. "I. It regards *he measure as ill-advised in that it would seriously affect trade by forcing freight thtcugh irregular routes at additional cost of time and money, thus minimizing the benefit to the consumer of the tariff rebate. "2. t must be kept in mind that the preference clause of the tariff applies to the products of many of the Colonies as well as to those of the Motherland. Canada imports largely from India, Ceylon, the Straits Settlements, British West Indies, etc., and not only is New York the port of arrival for established steamship Unes engaged in this trade, but it also provides a market for purchases made in excess of Canadian requirements. Purchasing in large quantities is at times of distinct advantage, and without some outlet other than our home market this advantage would be lost. " 3. It is expedient to legislate so as to reduce the transportation faciUties between the seaboard and the West. The competition of the Canadian lines for the business of the American cities of the West is regarded as an important factor in the control of rates as affecting import to the United States, and it is equally important to the Western C-'nadian cities that the element of protection a forded by the competition of American railways should not be eliiuiualed. " 4. The United States would regard this as an unfriendly legislation, and, as a consequence, our bonding privileges might be restricted, or othet retaliatory measures adopted. ^ 3 55 » « Not only is the proposed measure unjust and inexpedient, but it would accomjiish notS beyon^d subsidizing a number of steamsh.p compan.es who are now in combination to maintain rates. .. Your Committee finally would urge that representation be made to Parliament f .u ^^.LnHTcessitv of providing sSch terminal facilities at some Canadian port °^ '^n^^r^ conSs favorab e to the establishment of an all Canadian route f^ng sCSat sucrcouJte will do more towards the end sought than the proposed legislation. ,, " All of which is respectfully submitted. Now Mr Chairman, before I take my seat I want to say that no one m this Conferen;- is more anxious to develop Canadian ports, both summer and winter Conterenc « more r inexpedient course to take, it would be Sniust to a JuS'onmportU in This country, and it would nullify the effect of the Srential tarUr in some respects. I do not see how under these circumstances, the Conference can support the resolution. Mr George Robertson, St. John Board of Trade-I think I am correct m saying t'hat the Provincial Assembfy of the Province of Quebec passed a "solu .on fnSr of this motion. Whilst the last speaker was dwelling upon some important no nts hat he made?" seemed to me. Mr.'^Chairman. if 1 may be permitted to say ft that tWs CoSence should at least have the courage to deal with questions that thev have a right to deal with. I know it has been stated broadcast through Great Britain and I We heard it personally myself, that we are assuming great responsi- Su y thafwe are almost dictating to the'people of Great Britain as to what they shaU do with their tariff, but when it comes to a question of the Parliament of he nnminion of Canada granting a preference to British goods commg into the dominion of Canada in^theint^erests of the patriotism of the Emp re-whatever object he Government may have had in granting that preferen jal tariff at east ^Leader of the Government says, and I accept the statement, '^at he made it .n a broad and magnanimous spirit, and it was appreciated in Great Bnta.n. and I las pleased to see tne resolution of the Montreal Board of Trade was broad ^deed. Shat the action of this Convention to-day showed at least the Canad an sdrU-when you come to deal with a question of this k.nd do you mean to tell ^ Mr Chairman and gentlemen of this Convention, that we have got to consider Uie great nat on to the south of us. who have their own coasting trade who have on every occasion done what they considered was in the interests of the United Sutes ' Do we expect to make a nation in this country ? Are you going to end a Montreal and the Grand Trunk Railway ? Are you going to bml4 up the great West and make a nation of it? Must the ports of the Maritime P'of «-«^ ^j 'his nation stand idle and see the goods that you have given a preferential tariff to pass into swell th, imports of this Dominion through the fo/."K«J P«''-^l°"'/"«°f ^ neighbors? Surely it will never do. I appeal to t^.s Convention that there are^nterests as deep in the Maritime Provinces, as deep where those (wrts are interested, aye as deep as those interests in your broad wheat fields n your great illimitable North-West ; and you can never become a Sjeat man- time nat.on, you can never become a great power, yo" J'» » *7«,.. .*^ dependent upon the navy of Great Br.tain and the power of that lUtle island. unless%ou build up your maritime ports, ^t is needless Mr Cha, man and gentlemen; for me to dwell upon this or to go into statistics It is o'e of those things that are as dear as the noonday sun. You preach Pf "° f?""' 7°V«"^7°"^ young men out to the war. some even go so far as to cast that m the face of the taxpayers of Great Britain and say : "We have done so-and-so. you fould do some^ thing for us"-for heaven's sake let us first be true to Cauada, le us Jave « our minds that Canada is a nation, aye. even against all the ^oJJ- . (^pplause). When I say that, am I less a part of the Bnt.sh Empire and proud "f>t, and deter- mined to do everything that will develop and strengthen .t ? But wfen JO" ^P^f to the man of Lancashire that he has got to do something that will enable you o take your grain to Great Britain, that man says: " I have got to have that added to my loaf." That is the argument ; I do not wish to take up the time of this Conven- 56 tion. but I appeal to the honorable gentleman Mr. Kemp, of the Toronto Board of Trade-I know his patriotism. I know his love of country-b.it I will bring to his mind a little circumstance that happened at the Chamber of Commerce of the Empire, after a resolution had been arranged in the Committee ; they asked to have an opportunity to place it before the Right Honorable Lord Salislniry, Leader of the Government-What was the reply ? It was not convenient for His Lordship, that great man ? No, the time is inopportune ! If they had passed ^^ res. ut .on n this Convention and Sir Wilfred Laurier had sent a reply ot that kind 't wou d have been hurled from one end of the Dominion to the other. There is no nan in Canada, I care not who he is. that could make me take a second place in joyalty to this Empire ; I say that without boasting ; my eldest son, as many a lather s son, was out to Africa, and I vould have been there myself if it had not been the time of day, but I tell you I never forget that : " A king can mak' a belted knight, A marquisi, duke and a' that ; But an honest man's at>oon his might — Gude faith, he mauna fa' that ! " While I heartily endorse the resolution of the Montreal Board ^^ Trade while I think it is proper. I still would like to see the Premier have a free hand, and not gothere as some of us said, with his hat in his hand ; but when he comes to the Question of preferential tariff, or when he is dealing with a question o^ Canadian Sorts, I apoeal to this Convention, I appeal in the name of he Maritime Provnces what;ver you do do not vote against this resolution, or. believe me, we will go back home, and it will have a stronger effect than you have any idea of. It may e tha^ there may be a steamship line or two, but what do we find ; the very Ameri- cans coming over to capture whatever we have now in the shape of Mantinrie mterestrMry Chairman, I have said enough, for I feel I can take my seat with the confidence that the resolution will be earned unanimously. Mr. DeWolfe, Halifax-I think that after the address from Mr. Robertson there can be no question but that this resolution will be passed unanimously. Ihe East comes to the West, and we ask you in return for all that we can do for you, or may in uniting with you do for the interests of the West, that you will do something for us The question that has been introduced by Mr. Hatheway is one that aooeals to every Canadian, it is a question there should be no objection to. The faa that in the past the maritime cities ot the United States have been built up to a ereat extent by the imports and exports of Canadian trade is one that every Canadian iiiust deplore. The resolution moved by Mr. Hatheway should not cost any importer in Canada a single dollar in excess of what he is now paying. VVe ask tEpport of all Western men in behalf of this resolution. We have been told "at there was a danger of the grain products of Canada being diverted and eround n M nneapolis and St. Paul, and exported through the United States Ports ; that would deprive the working man of Canada and the manufacturer of Canada of the nrofit of that work, for every shipment you make through American ports you rob Canadian industry The freight rates from St. John to the West are the same as from -he American ports to the West, and thereifore I sav the cost to the importers should not be a dollar more than they are now paying, andil so, the steamship com panv should meet any such excess by a lower rate. There is a chance here for Eatriotism to be shown, and even if the goods imported through Canadian ports may be twelve to fifteen hours longer in reaching their destination every patriotic importer should be willing-and if they all unite it would make no diflrerence-to wait this loneer time. The only sacrifice the merchant is asked to make is to watt Tfew hours longer for his goods. I would ask every delegate here. East a..d West, to unite with the maritime delegates in support of the resolution introduced by the St. John Board of Trade. Mr W H King, St. Thomas Board of Trade— Neither the patriotism nor the loyalty of this Convention is at all at stake ; it is simply a matter of business. The sea ports of Sydney, Halifax, St. John and Montreal are interested as against 57 the whole of the rest of the Dominion. While we have much sympathy for them, and whUe we would like to cooperate with them as farrs it is with.n our power, we cannot do that and sacrifice the rest ot the Dominion entirely to their interests. We as delegaus here, are interested in the development of our trade and commerce as much as possible. I might say almost entirely the foundation stone of that is co-Ztitive «tes and routes Remove that, and what has our trade and commerce to -W uSi' A gentleman trom Winnipeg has already stated that gram must go and is Kiing through American routes to-day. but he did not say he had atiy objection o it. or that the country would be any better without that. I am afraid fhe Winnipeg men to day might be in a bad state if they were tied up to one route. I anTafraUrfhrcommerce of this country demands it, and we niust have competi- ive rou es yet! for a time, at least, and while the country to the south of us are riend°y in a wiy and unfriendly in another way. we must not forget the fact that our Canadian railways are very largely supported by American commerce. I think a ve^y JreTpI?centage of the'orand TTrunk Railway is the result of the movement of American Uaffic, which could be cut off by simply a cancellation of the bonding nriSs It has been held up before the public as a bug a- boo for some time. KTobably wUl never result. I hope this meeting will not be carried away w"th the sym^pachetic appeal of our friend from the east. W. are in sympathy with him, but we must consider the whole of the Dominion of Canada. Mr Hugh Blain. Toronto-It seems almost ungracious to oPPf « 'his resolution but we must look at it as sensible business men. I have a great deal ot svmpathy with the proposal and if we were in a position to enforce it, I would cordial y endorse h but we havVno such facilities on our eastern coast as would enable us to cafry out thi^ rl^lution. While my friend may be correct in the statenrient hat the rates from New York and Boston are the same as from St. John. I venture to say if voupass^his resolution that condition of things will not remain so long. We could not possibly in justice to ourselves abandon the competition that exists to-day. Mr Hatheway— Were you ever down there ? ^ x u Mr Hugh BLAiN-My friend asks if 1 was ever down there and I suppose he means that I would discover that they had facilities. Take .n my own busmess. we CXt goods from the Straits Settlement. Ceylon and all these eastern parts, and there s no direct connection between any of them and any Canadian port. We cannoUssue a letter of credit bringing goods by way of any port except by way of New York or Boston, and it is quite evident we must develop our eastern facilities Srdolg business infinitely more than they are to-day before we could possiby enforce a resolution such as this. It would not be patriotic so far as Great Britain fs concerned, it would be simply transferring to the steamship companies the preference that we give to-day to the British manufacturers. It could have no other Et If it is in the interests of the steamship companies it must be opposed to the interests of the British exporter, or else opposed to the interests of the Canadian consumer. As a matter of fact the condition of trade m this country is altogether in"oo «ude a condition to pass any such sweeping resohit.on as thaiN and whde I svmDathize most sincerely with the appeal to patriotism that has been made— and no onTwi I go Zlilr than I will so far as the question of loyalty to our country is concerned-we must still show that we are business men, and that we are not losing our heads altogether, because by putting ourselves in a position of this kind, when we come to analyze Jhe proposition and look at it in al its bearmgs we would all Tay '^Thatmajbevery p^riotic.but it is not a business course, for a business man to pursue." When the facilities for doing business m the east would enable us practically to carry out a resolution of this kind, then it would rccive my cordial support and cooperation. (Applause). Mr. John Russell. Winnipeg Board of Trade— I wish to state that the Winnipeg Board had this under consideration and unammous^ were of the opinion that such could not be carried through at the present time. There is no doubt the principle involved of keepmg trade, as far as possible, w.thm Canadian routes, and also in British bottoms, is a good one if we are prepared for it. but we must bear in mind that there are a great many consumers of goods between here and the m^ 58 Rookj Mountains that are affscted as much by this question as those in the eastern parts, and the shippers there wish to ship their goods by the best and quickest routes, and where the most advantageous freight rates can be obtained, and I do not see why we should be limited by any means, or why the western part of the country should be deprived of the benefit of the 33^ per cent, on a great many of their importations, and the eastern part get the benefit, for, sir, such an act as this, put into force, would effectually deprive the West of the benefit of that 33^ per cent, advantage, which they would rather surrender than surrender the best and most advantageous routes of carriage. Mr. McKay, Sault Ste. Marie— It was said at a very important gathering that we have all got to hang together or we will hang separately. If that British tax of 3 cents a bushel on wheat will be remitted to Canada ai.d the other Colonies, then I presume it will increase the price in Canada 3 cents per bushel in order to be any benefit to Manitoba. Canada produces 90,000,000 bushels of wheat, she exports about 10,000,000. While there is about f 300,000 of benefit goes to the Manitoba wheat raisers son >ody in Canada has got to pay about $2,700,000 out of their pockets for the increased price of wheat if it is going to be any benefit to Iv^anitoba. So I think we should stand together and hang together and help out the Atlantic ports. We are a nation, we are going to be a great nation, wo may as well lay the foundations that must be laid at some time m ordr o make us a nation, and personally if we can help it, the rich farmers of Mani^ , who make an average of f 1,000 out of their farm products, surely they anc' e can pass this resolution, because it only affects about $25,000,000 worth ol oods from Great Britain, it does not affect all the imports from Great Britain which amount to some $43,000,000, and it also should assist us in building up a better steamboat connection between Canada and Great Britain. Personally I think it is too early in the day to subsidize a fast Atlantic Line, but if we can adopt this resolution it would pave the way for us to lead up to that consummation, when we shall have a steamship line worthy of our Dominion, and worthy of the trade we have created. Adjourned at 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. WEDNESDAY EVENING. The Conference resumed at 8 o'clock. Mr. De Wolfe, Halifax — I must take exception to the remark made by the gentleman from Winnipeg, that sooner than be dictated to as to the means by which they would get their goods, they would forfeit their 33J per cent, preference. I do not think that is a question that shonld Influence us here. We are first Canadians, and any benefit we can do to each other benefits the whole Dominion, and we would ask, in the event of this resolution not passing tonight, that you use your influence in benefiting the Maritime Provinces, tha': you import your goods in such a way as will have this effect. (Hear, hear.) .litherto the policy of Canada has been to subsidize steamers and build up foreign ports, to-day we have a different phase of business which should have always oitained. If each delegate would go to his Board with the patriotic idea in his mind, and would bring before his local Board the advisability of patronizing the maritime ports, or Canadian ports wherever practical, then we would return feeling that some benefit would accrue to the East by our meeting with you here to day. Mr. John Russell, Winnipeg — Will you allow me to correct a wrong impress- ion which appears to have been made ? The idea which I wished to convey was this : that in some cases it would be more profitable to the merchant doing business in the West to forfeit the 331^ per cent, rather than be compelled to bring his goods through Canadian ports ; not that we should prefer to do it, but in some cases, for J!^d'.°, ''"dTwS- „W?,ol'".:r'An. Sv.lop«i. W. .„ .i-'h ,o„ i. ,h.t. but the time is not opportune. ^ .. „, , M» DhWolpk. Halifax— 18 there any more opportune time than the P"«fn» ' idle, and we ask you to help u§. . j • r M» M r Ellis Toronto-I am sure we all listened with a great deal ot fif^^„^D?;afure to the r^arks made by the delegate from St. John. Mr course to fall back on, and it is in that w'.y ,*"*\,^f^ *"' ^ "f^ force artificially tion lines op«n -tlje cheapest mariner possible^ p f ?enTi:rtIriffTrouih Ca/- Sanadian ports, so that they have the best terrnmal fac.lU es and may be on the line of cheapest transportation from the seaboard to the ^'V^st, and | »"" sur« i St. John gentlemen ^11 consider the situation as I ^.^^ °"*^'"|^;;^ ^^^^^^^^ is not from any unpatriotic standpoint we are oPPO?f f. 'o »t . we are fuUy in sy mp^^ with their wish and we only wish we could see all the steamship lines coming lu adopt this resolution we would put a very large »"'°7\ °\.7'. ^^^privileee. and we know from the large amount of shippmg our f o'"P»">^^,^J'^.^^i'''" tha^^^^^ to make rates .hat are much more satisfactory H.^^fore we m^^^^^^^^^ do not force our trade into artificial iiucs, and lose tnese pnvuigr ""^'MrMuNRO, Montreal-Provided the members from the Maritime Provinces 6o are »atis*^v . wuh Mi l>e >Volf'?'s siii,ne«tion that thf eavc it as a m ilter of onot for the rr 'I'-h^nrs tc akc up t « suggestion, we neea not press it further ; i it it has occur. »*.i ,1' iw ■ I iiie principle which is advocated by this resohition al -:ady exists in ow tariff. > here is «uch a thing as the ( anadian :arif discrimm .ting in favor of ^ x)ds ..n iiur by/'anadian ports; there are s< ne specific items to which that applies a al t( < feehn^' I h .d in hearing the resolution was this, that our friends were asking i- • much, that the rt meiK proposed is too drastic. For instance, the average duty iivici on imports from Great Britain is i8 per cent, off therefore.!! we remit the en re rebate it will mean a loss of six per cent, on thf face value nf the imports. \ow, if t:ie amendment suggested that a modification such, for example, as that \v:iile the preft-rf-mial rebate is 33 J per cent., the rebai on goods coming throuKii United States ports should be limited to 25 per cent, that would make the arrangement much less severe, and woul(!. perhap* . afford an opportunity of emphasiyint; the desirabihty of importing throiu 1 Canadian channels whenever possible. It seems to me it is part ul our Imperial ,^olicy to encourage and strengthen those ports, an.! I have no fear if we saw our way to grant some concession to our friends in tht Maritime Provinces, that in due time we would have such shippinj,' facilities. I do not wish to propose an amendment, but 1; u were agreeable to the movers of this resolution that something like ihis shoii d i^ done, in order to encourage the importation of British goods through Canadian ports, this Conference desires that the preferential rebate on goods b- limited to 25 per cent, when imported through foreign ports, perhaps we would al jgree. That would meet the objection of Mr. Blain, because in the case of tjood coming from the East, from India, for example, it would not apply, but v, i appiy oniv . goods from Great Britain. Mr. W. Sanforh Ev.\ns, Wmnipe'g-I regret as comin should be any misunderstanding on the p-irt of sonit^ of the East as to the attitude of the Winnipeg Board of Trade. "•- the question was received very sympathetically. I know sympathy in Wmnijjeg inwards the matters which dunn rom W >reseni '•-■• ien 1" «. ,■■ here is a gi the time I h peg mere fro the . .t deal f e 1 ^n 111 the city fiave been brought up from the Boards of Trafle of Eastern Canad. In this case there was no condemnation of the measure. The 'titude taken v. 1 that It hardly seemed as if the time was apportune for passing a definite resolu-ion or putting a definite policy i)t that kind ir operation. On (jues is of transportation as they affect eastern ports or eastern ines of transportation W nnipeg interested, and I know the feeling w that if posssible the be fit she to Canadian lines of transportatio; and we hope the day nay co traffic that does not go over Canadia ines ard through Canadian insignificant factor in our total tran- wjrtation. Although sidered toa largeextent as an opport v for individi. ^ sentatives ' Winnipeg, after the .*..(■ n which the W: declaring tha: m their opinion the time was not jpp policy of that kind to be put id peration, ve woui ' n vote for I resolution expr* -^d Personally the resolution app •- forward to tl. development oi >_ for a moment overlook the industries in which a country i we can begin too soon along our Canadian marine. Another po the objections raised to this measur first half dozen hours we complaint . the idea of prefen tial trade in th expensive for the merchant. That is just that a preference in fav of the Colonies It was said another objei ion was to the pre East. That is just wha; the people in Brita at the present time suppl\ thcni with all the^ quacy if they adopt that policy. Cf ssicn, T' very much he given .hen the ill be an is con- repre- d took in a definite at we could n expressed. who looks a should not the greatest do not think g to develop .ills debate that ons which in the t Britain against iS said it might be more .it which is used in England, : the articles more expensive. lequacy of our facitiiies in the are saying, that the Colonies cannot leed , and there is the danger of inade- it was said that there might be complications xactly as this ( me s ~iy. fo. aadian mr I tha' in;. is enga (i ir hear), les ot Mr it are it str: tening vere lus le obje .f h, ir ed in Gr t: Co iS said mmrrmmm^^i^mmmmtmmmmm .ith the Ui>ited St,< IS Hist esractiy the ai of preferential tradr Thev ff: T\ the coU>nies, ai thert i ze jgnize the fact tt.at ther' wh re the line of arp ent coti ictions or- all >\. have Env reitsee s to me we mu HI .(iing tl a., .r of .. ,i( quate, atf. '8 through the tending regulations and other matters. That an, >t wuh which England is meeting our arguiDents >n favor (he vast volume of our imp irts cannot be got be complication . It s«ems lo me we should fully been rallel. a say admit and even if and even it confidence tl lispo^ tixn t i we It-ally In on the mattf force of what i toes cost a liti U the present ^t in the futur will pay ■ iieen say-.g IS a matter solut 01 pUcai if we ha ■: vu....— — -■ - 1 shippint. will be adequate, and that tl trade w all these things, then we cannot on th- strength o -,re during the early part of this day, for h motii«n d well worthy of consideration. I say this becai ... _. 1 . . decide' ! e two sides on things and are honest in our preference within the e gentlemen have said in e ni ire, even if there is tme the fn 'ities are r our faci t- will be i>i' such as ill we have ny that this should h, irank enough to recogmze what has struck me -- If son. ach amendment could be suggest e J m cas dra«n as that the individual members f this Con^ then the subject of this resolution to si ' y over it > condiuons would be so changed that tht pract 1 < w dd certainly meet with my approbation md approval of the '".onference. (Applause.) Mr h 'IN sx'N. Kingston— I am strong by t he ^entlen) rom St. John. I was m re i Hominion Govci nent made a preferential tar .4nd lid not stipulate they should come th nun ler n( years ago, that Canadian boats and Mil vaukee to Port Colborne. Ti^iat v Dalh 'USie : if was taken by Can^ Osw. 40. '1 h. \mericans tried to bt :hat wasoi i.>-nefit to our Canadian wh* ! was captain of a steamer, [Kirt of Cleveland to report at the 1 a bill ., ar tax ii 'he icsolutioi) ice would tak ^ time arru vvoulil be :ii with the •'link we isistency. not with- jme with t when the .ercome, it unanimous Cai low resolution moved rtn 1 heard that the iing from England IS. I remember, a ^ly grain from Chicago *ent over i >e Welland road to Port ron. Port Dalhousie and brought to .,u -y have stopped everything since I .lember a number of years ago after the American war, I went into XV ».<; - toms House, and they presented me f $140 or $i5o, and what do you suppose that was for ? f-or the United States. That is the treatment we have been receiv- ing from a Ca adian standpoint, and a great mistake in allowing that pi -fe through the United States. The at a great disadvantage for a grer will be worth $150,000 in the Uni do certainly say the Government made K\\ tariff to apply to merchandise coming siness in this country has been working ars. A boat worth $100,000 in C; nada ates Why ? Simply because the boats of t'he United'States'have freight both ways. A number of years ago our boats were oaded full up with merchandise ; to-day' you will find that they are not hainoaded n a great m^ny cases. I claim that if that $25,000,000 of stuff which comes ,n under the preferential tariff came in by St. John and Halifax and by the city o Montreal, our boats, every trip, would be full loaded, and by our boats being full loaded these people in Winnipeg could get their g"'" /""«^/^«*"/!'^^P;|; because, with having freight both ways, the '^''f^"^^" ^°"><^ ""^ '^f^'f ^^..^J^'; deal cheaper. We want to stand by our people by the sea. If we are not true to each othePwe cannot exist. I am surprised a. the Winnipeg men for the reaso,. that we have been trying to ma ^t pleasant for them ; we h^Xf ^udt the Can. dian Pa ific Railway! They sa> .hat in the near future they wnl b^ able to supt^y Britain with all the grain needed, and if that is so, they should hold up Jeir hands and say : •' We will help you." These men down in the Lower Provinces have helped to build the C. P. R., and if that road had not been bmlt yo« would not have been here today telling the people of the great possibihties '« »/>« N^^'^; West. (Hear, hear.) I du not Hve in St. J-hn, ! live ,n Kingston, and if you want this coutitry to be great we have got to help each other and the way to help each other is to have the stuff come through St. John and Montreal Why hive the Americans become a great nation ? Do you ever find men m the United i^tates 6a running down that country ? No. but you will find many men r,y""'°« ,X° our' Dominion. I would like to see us all join hands and say we will be true to our- selves, and by voting for St. John we will prove tt. Mr C. N. Bell— I can thoroughly endorse the remarks of Mr. Evans, who sDokfa few mnutes ago. We had% resolution of a similar character from the &l S^rd of Tradl The Winnipeg Board of Trade g'^ve 't a ^jeat deal o^^ consideration. We are most anxious to send our grain as a matter of «I»rt^» Montreal and St. John and Halifax in preference to Buffalo. \ye want to get our Sorts via St Un and Halifax and Montreal, but the trouble is that we just had fX the HaSfax Board of Trade a resolution asking us in common wUh other B^rds to give them suggestions as to how the Intercolonial Railroad could be made rnore serviceable, and more of the character of what it was «*P«^;«^ '° ^^V«e workrni highway. We gave that a great deal of consideration, we had a comnruttee working on tha^for a considerable time, we made recommendations to the Do-"'"";" Govern- ment. and the matter was discussed in the House last Session ; T,"J°"^,'"fjJ^ that a thoroughly competent railroad expert, up-to-date, who k"** »" ^J^"* management af well as detail, should be appointed by '^e Canadian Governn«ent to reoort and we suggested certain alternative schemes to make the Intercolonial R&d a roTd to ?frform the functions the Canadian people want ,t to performu We h^d from the Maritime Province Boards a statement tha »»>« "»"f^"f'^ instead ot being carried through their ports was diverted at Montreal bv the Grand Trunk and Canadian Pacific Railroad to American ports I t^tfje can only ge somethinK satisfactorv when we know where we are in the matter of the traffic atter h Ss^t St. John and Halifax ; it ,s really impossible for '^e B^rd^^ «°^^°^^^^^^ directly a definite proposition to make the thirty-three a°d one-third per cent, applicable only to g^s coming by Canadian ports. Then I "Pf Y ^^y^f «»' ^^^^ on goods from Liverpool to Winnipeg cheaper than we get from Hahfax to Winnipeg That is what faces us. and however desirous we may be to assist there is thai difficulty. o T u u ( Mr. Hatheway— Are the rates higher from Winnipeg to St. John than trom Winnipeg to New York ? ^ r t ■ i Mr. Bell-I say there are certain freights that can be brought from Liverpoo to Winnipeg at a lower rate than we can 't from St. John to ^y>"nlpeg• I tell you it is more a matter of transportatif than it '^ » desire not to build up our Canadian ports. It is a matter that should be taken up by our Canadian seaports Montreal, Halifax and St. John should form a permanent committee to enquire into the matter and force our ra'.lroads to give such rates that w^ not [eq"''/ "^^° V^ the American roads when we have Canadian railroads subsidized by the Dominion of Canada to do that business for us. Mr. G. E. Amvot, Quebec Board of Trade-I do not think the members from Winnipeg have as much confidence in our railway and steamship facilities as they have ifthe future of their North- West; if they had, they would talk very dfejently I think their sole object in coming here is to get as much as t^^^y.";*" J"d f'veas little as they can. They are willing to make a lot oi promises and show their good faith in sleek words, but I believe that is about '^e hmit We have s earners comine to Halifax, St. John, Quebec and Montreal about a third filled ; it is not for want of space, nor on account of rates, because I think they can get as good rate^by Quebec or Montreal in the summer, or St. John and Hahfax in the winter, as from New York. Mr. Bell, Winnipeg— Not from the seaboard to our country. Mr. Amvot, Quebec-If you get them by New York you have to draw to Winnipeg, and you can get the same rate from St. John to Winnipeg. However we are he^e in a family meeting to-day and everybody has to put his hands to the wheel We have all the facilities for transportation from European markets to WinnipeR, and if they are so positive about transporting so many million bushels of wheat throuch our ports. I think they should not be scared about getting a few carloads of materials to their country, which would be nothing m comparison to 63 what they are exporting. As to the freight, suppose there was some difference, I think the Winnipeg people, in co-operation with the Boards of Trade, might try to meet together and re-arrange that. As far as we are concerned in Quebec, we have never heard of any complaints from the Winnipeg Board of Trade that the freieht rate was not satisfactory. I never heard anything of it before ; and if they would write to the Boards of Trade of Montreal, Quebec, Hahfax and St. John, that matter might be fixed up very quickly, and I do not think we should for a moment avoid adopting the resolution of our fnend from St. John and shelve that question over. .■ u i Mr. Munro, Montreal— It has been suggested that this amendment which 1 read when last on my feet should be put before you. The resolution is that, •■ In ordt-to encourage the importnion of British goods via Canadian porta thla Conference desires that thS preferent^ rebate on goods imported from Great Britain arriving by UnitiKl States ports shall be limited to aj percent." This suggestion is fo- the purpose of placing on record at this Conference our desire to encourage the Maritime ports in a more definite way than by leaving it as a matter of grace. I do not think our friends in the North West will have any- thing to o-mplain of in regard to the assurance that the C.P.R. who make those rates would charge a higher rate. For " United States ports " we might substitute the words " other than Canadian ports." Mr G. S. Campbell, Halifax— I beg to second that amendment moved by Mr Munro, and I do so because I think the policy advocated would give a stimulus to Canadian transportation facilities, and also help to build up Canadian ports, and when 1 say Canadian ports, I don't simply mean Maritime Province ports, because I think the policy proposed here would benefit very considerably the ports of Quebec and Montreal. I think it is lamentable that a large proportion of Canadian goods go through United States ports. Are we to allow this thing to go on, or are we going to try to remedy it ? The objection seems to be that if tl.-.s policy were adopted western importers would pay more freight, and they would be under this disadvantage. I cannot help thinking that that objection is very much exagger- ated, because the policy which we propose would have the effect of stimulating and increasing the facilities by the Maritime Provinces and Canadian ports, and the result would be that those gentlemen would find that by the increase of business, in a very short time, if not at once, rates by Canadian ports would be just as low as they aie throug! foreign ports. Another thing I would like to mention is this, someof the gentlemen do not seem to be aware there is a freight agreement in force now, and has been for some years, by which goods entering Canadian ports, say from St. John to any point in the west of Canada, are imported just as cheaply as from New York to that same point in Canada, and from Halifax at one cent, per ; hundred pounds additional, so that I do not think there is any fear of any i combination of steamship and railway companies as has been suggested by 1 some gentlemen. I do not think we need fear retaliation on the part of the ! United States. Our experience with the United States is that they are not afraid to ; discriminate against any foreign country. The United States very properiy looks I after her own interests, and I do not think the United States will think any the less [ of us for looking after our interests. I think it is time for us to consider our own \ interests. We have a precedent in connection with the treaty at present in force ■ between Canada and France. Under that treaty Canadian goods, for instance, do '■ not get the benefit of the minimum French duty unless they go direct from Cana- i dian ports to France. If they go through United States ports they pay additional duty. We very much appreciate the sentiments which have been expressed by the gentlemen from Winnipeg, but we only wish they would take a little more practical form. In all these questions there is a certain amount of give and take, and it may be a certain amount of sacrifice. Just as one gentleman has stated, we are asking the old country to make a certain amount of sacrifice in our favor, because it does amount to some sacrifice ; and now supposing these western parts do have to make some slight sacrifice to the extent suggested by this resolution, the question is are they willing to make that sacrifice for the sake of opening up Canadian p<'ts ? 64 We think the sacrifice is not an extreme one, and we think it would be fair for them to make it. and we believe if it is a sacrifice just now. it will be or only a very short Lr We are told the conditions at present will not stand this change : what we wTnt is to alter the conditions and we think of no more practical ^^y °^ do ng it than has been sueRcsted. I think to the slight extent suggested in Mr. Munro s amenSmentThis Conference will support the principle that Canadian goods ought to be earned in Canadian ships and through Canadian ports. Mr. E. G. Henderson, Windsor-As a matter of sentiment I feel in sympathy with the resolution as proposed by Mr. Hatheway. but as a matter f b"/'"*^^;/ think we would be putting ourselves in a very false PP«tion indeed g '^^ Co„^r- ence endorsed any such resolution. Supposing you had f.}^"" '^^\^^«2iJ^ were to come through Canadian ports, we should be telling the ^ eam^^iP corn^ nanies he." " We must give you these goods," and we should be telling the railway Sanie^-^he samT thinl. ^here is no^ne but the three trunk Hn- '« c„ry;hose goods, and consequently I doubt very much if we would get ^^e same rates that we let now. Apart from the question of rates, there is the question of time, which Ivlry manufacturer and eve?y business man knows is of much 7,^« '3t > " than the rate he pays. We would loose all that advantage ; but apart from that fact, I am afraid that the United States would at once withdraw the bonding privilege. Mr. Robertson, St. John — No. Mr. Henderson, Windsor-I do not care very much for o."' ""Sbbors to the south, but I am inclined to think they would withdraw that P"vilege. and if they did our railways to-day would not be able to carry Canadian commodities at the same rate the/ do; I am sure they would be compelled to advance the rates I think the volume of American business done over Canadian rail«"'y%bdps o keep down the rates. I grant you in time to come we may have enough domestic busi- S to keep them going, but 1 do not think we F . . now. I think we should b« very slow in endorsing any such resolution, and x tnink now tha the ma"er has been ventilated, the gentlemen here, when possible. wiU have their busmess corne through Canadian ports, but I think we would be making a mistake if we endorsed the resolution. . Mr. George E. Drummond, Montreal-I for one propose to vote for this resolution as modified by Mr. Munro. I do so because it is >lo"/ J^'e '»"« "J Canadian policy, and 1 believe I ought to stand by that We have today sir. dealt with the question of prei«ential trade ; friends we will have to give up something to accomplish that in the next few years, until we get m a position where we can meet the competition of the world. Our fnends from Winnipeg I am sure wUl generously give way on this, and will accept this resolution in its modified form, because I know they are true Canadians and want to help these men of the east to build up their ports. It is a shame that we should nermit our exports from Canada, from the we.t and from the centre of Canada, to go out via .\merican ports if we can send them by Canadian ports. There is no question, as Mr. Gaskm said, that if you can fill these boats both ways that will mean cheaper freight rates for the men of the west, and that our railways will meet us in a generous spirit 1 am perfectly confident, if the volume of trade will p.rmit of it. For that reason I propose to support this motion. My friend from Windsor has spoken of what the Americans might do. I tell you that when the Americans meet in such a Conference as this they do not care very much what Canadians are going to do. 1 hey believe in themselves. (Hear, hear). We in this country have never had confidence in ourselves ; our banks would not be laden down with $250,000,000 earning 3 per cent, if our people had confidence enough to develop Canadian transportatum and develop Canadian mines. We have the resources, and I do hope this assembly to-night will stand by these gentlemen from Halifax and will pass Mr. Munro s amendment. (Applause). Mr. Saunders, Goderich— To my mind only one side of this matter has been discussed, and that is the importing. There is another question, that of exportmg. and that matter has been apparently overlooked. Vessels will not come to Cana- 65 dian ports unless they can have a ioad back to Engjand .ga.n or - other co^^^ ltk''"Th:re^^;etm;^eaTonsonh?;eaIrn England when trade is -re --e rnt-r ^^Sr^Zi^rt^ t^S^!^ ^^^'1^^'^!:, of may say also that I get ''*="" '^'"1°^^°. ^^ low a rate by Montreal as by ri-i 'i"i'r* ?"s£i ;r\r.«^r .tSj^r^ Mr Munro Montreal— That is the whole substance ot my resolution. If you remove that voi remove the whole amendment. 1 do not think we strike the Americans as LchaTwe strike the Canadians, because it is the Canadian who Americans as '""''" ""..^ , _. ^„i„- xhen let me say to our fnend from Goder- irif wVh*avTmre'inwI?d%Se'we"will\^^^^^^ outlard trade ; the steam.r. -irthere to take the outward trade because we have not enough commg ho..e. ^j^difwecLndilert the trade to Canadian points we would have more steamers to carrv goods home to England. Mr Saunders, Goderich-I want to impress upon Mr. Munro the fact that reXt^L of encouragement t.f Canadian shipping, containing a clause such as this antagonize our neighbors. ,. Mr D R. WiLK.E, Toronto-I am sick and tired of hearing about this retalia- tion and I hope the gentlemen from St. John and Halifax wil not be 'nfluenced in an? way by the arguments that they have heard threatemng the people of Canada wi^h reuliation by the United States Government. (Hear hear) Who reaps the ^nefiro carrying this trade inwards from the ports of Boston and New York ? It U the American railways, let them f^ght it out there, it is their fight they are no going to aHoJ'he bonding privileges to be done away with merdy because we uoi B^V'fv' „ ,,^i rebate We have granted this privilege of prete'-^ntial UrVinfivoroXish gS and tt was laid at the time that we i.d this we would" uffer for it the Americans would retaliate. What have they done ? "You Tre ealwTett°ng on to our game, you are finding us out." I know leading protect- tTonsts of the United States, and they told me plainly, "You do not know how to manaLe your own affairs, do not be alraid of us. Our whole policy is not dictated bv a desfre to°niure Canada. We have our own business to look after, and you are onW a smal fact^orln the matter. We are not doing this to injure you, we are doing h to ben^fi ourselves." Let us think in the same way. let us benefit ourselves. As ot°.e argument of Mr. Saunders that he was forced to export his goods by way of Boston o^r New York, what does that mean ? It means that owing to oar allowing fh^s oreference on Br tish goods coming through Boston and New York, instead of imitfngTt to 5^s tha com« onlv through Halifax, St. John, Quebec and Montreal, he wT ofced tl^d his goods to Boston and New Vork. But force them to bring our ...-'v. IJ ^1 66 goods through Canadian ports, and you will have cheaper freight rates for Canadian produce from your own ports. (Hear, hear). I do not think we should g.ve way in this matter. Retaliation is a barbarous word, and Jt is not followed out except we want to injure, and we are not going to injure the United States, and as long as we are going to benefit ourselves, we should consider ourselves. What did the United States do the other day when the Philippines were taken over. The supply of hemp, as we know, coming from there, was subject to a certain export duty, and did they consiU us when they said there would be a rebate of that duty on hemp going into the United States, and there would be no rebate coming to Canada. Did they consider us? Did they fear our retaliation ? Not at all. They said they must have this hemp, and they would have it, and they would manage their own affairs in their own way. I think we are tired of this fear of retaliation, and we are putting a weapon in their hands. I hope the gentlemen from St. John will not allow any amendments to their original motion. Mr. C. B. Watts. Toronto— This question has been discussed by most of those that have spoken to it as though there were no other method of arriving at the object which is aimed at. We have a resolution yet to be submitted to this Confer- ence, one with reference to subsidies, and I think by making use ot the subsidies that are to be granted, and are granted to-day to the steamship lines, that we can very well attain the object aimed at without interfering with the P«fe«nce we are now giving to the Bhtish goods. If the proposal moved by Mr. Hatheway is adopted, ofthe one moved by Mr. Munro, I very much fear that the result will be this, that you will find that our railroads and transportation lines will take very care- fully into consideration the amount which would be saved by the importers on the goods, owing to the rebate, and they would simply add that to their freight charges, and the result would be that, instead of our giving a preference to British exporters on goods coming into Canada, they would begetting no preference at all, we would be giving them a preference on the one hand, and allowing the railways and trans- portation companies to take it away on the other. I think that is really the posi- tion we must see, and there is no use of our shutting our eyes to this state ot attairs. I think if we take the other clauses which we are shortly to discuss with reterence to subsidies, and make the subsidies conditional on the steamers sailing irom Canadian ports, and only from Canadian ports, then we will be doing something that will reach the same object in a more direct way, and a better way. Mr. Hatheway, St. John— I am surprised to hear gentlemen say that the ports of Montreal and Quebec have no facilities. I thought the city of Quebec had facilities to undertake the whole export and import trade of Canada. I think you are making a serious mistake if you do not accept this resolution in its entirety, but I will say for my comrades here, and other gentlemen who have spoken, that we are willing to accept the amendment suggested by the gentleman from Mont- real (Mr. Munro), and seconded by Mr. Campbell, of Halifax. It seems to me you do not know what facilities we have in the city of St. John and the city of Halifax. Do you know how many steamers we had arrived in our own city from England this last year ? You have no idea ; the gentlemen from Winnipeg do not know ; the gentlemen from Toronto ought to know. We had four large steamers a week regularly, all last winter, landing at the port of St. John. We had 89 steamers during those five months- twenty-two weeks. Those steamers came to that port half loaded every time. Why ? Because you have not got out of your old ruts ; because you have forgotten, to a certain extent, that there is an East m this country, and are looking westerly. It is time we looked easterly. Look at the increase of our trade. The year before last we exported from the city of St. John 108,000 tons of freight, and last year the exact figures are 173.000 tons of freight, an increase of 80 per cent., not due to any assistance that we have got from any- body in this world excepting the stability and ihe push of the people in the east, because we have spent f 1,000,000 to put our port into such a position as to be able io do your business and carry your trade. One gentleman spoke of freight rates. You can get at any time on a through bill of lading via the Canadian Pacific Railway for export, precisely the same rate of freight on 67 carloads of goods to the United Kingdom as you can by Now York or Bos- ton. Only three months ago I saw lying there in the warehouse goods coming from Iowa, from Illinois and Minnesota for export to the United Kingdom, and I hope that I will see more goods coming from Minnesota and Manitoba through our own ports for Great Britain. I may say I am shipping, myself. Manitoba flour to the West Indies via those steamers at precisely as low a rate as from the Lity ol New York. Then you can get on your inward cargo, if you require it at the time, the same through rates of freight as through the cities of New York and Boston. The truth of it is we have been able to capture freight froni Chicago, and been able to take it through our own city against the competition of New York and Boston. The question of labor was spoken of. I did not know that we were considering the question of the laborer at all, but for the last twenty-five years, until 1895, you were subsidizing a steamshio line to carry your business to the city of Portland, you were paying the laborers of that city good wages to help build up that city, wh ch was not a Canadian city, and that is what you are doing for the laborers of the cities of Boston, Portland and New York, when you are forgetting that there are routes otherwise, and when you are forgetting that there are Canadian workmen who need the money just as much as the New York and B ston laborers. With reference to the bonding privilege I would say that I hope those gentlemen who this morning and this afternoon had so little fear of Germany and the United States will now on this question have just as little fear of the possibility of the United States taking away the bonding privilege for that district of our country which lies north of Lake Erie. Look at the matter again and remember your vote upon this question will help a great deal, and inside of a year from the time that that goes into force you will have no cause of complaint as to your export or import facilities, or export and import rates in connection with the cities of Quebec, Mont- real, St. John, Sydney and Haliiax. (Applause.) I will withdraw the motion and consent to the amendment. The amendment was then put to the Conference and carried. IMPORTATION OF CANADIAN OATTUB TO ORBAT BRITAIN Mr W. F. Cockshutt, Brantford Board of Trade— I had the honor this morning of proposing a resolution which met with the unanimous approval of the house, and I trust I shall be equally fortunate in the resolution I submit at the present time. I may explain that since this resolution was decided upon by the Council of the Brantford Board of Trade, and after the resolution itself had been written several days, a similar resolution came up m the House at Ottawa. We did not take our cue from Ottawa in this matter. I believe both parties united on this question. Perhaps it had been lost sight of, but some ten years ago t^ embargo was placed against the importation of Canadian live cattle into Great Britain. I hold in my hand the figures prepared by the Minister of Customs showing the rate of increase that was going on since the year i88g up to the time that the embargo came into effect. In the year 1889 I find that the exports of Canadian hve cattle were, in round numbers, $4,992,000; in 1890, $6,565,000 ; m 1891, $8,425,000; in 1892 the present embargo came into force. You will see that during those three years the export trade was increasing about $2,000,000 per annum, but immediately the embargo was placed upon the importation of live stock into Great Britain, there came a standstill and then a decline. I find from the year 1892 until the year 1897 there was a constant decline in the exportation of Canadian live cattle. This, you will remember, is in spite of the fact that our North- West was being opened up. that an immense amount of cattle were being shipped from the North West that heretofore had been shipped from Ontario, Quebec, and the lower provinces, therefore the figures do not fully represent the dis- advantages that this country was placed under in this matter. I contend that we are not receiving what might be called British justice in the embargoes that exist against Canadian cattle. I am here to speak to-night, and it will be re-echoed from every Board of Trade in this eoantr/, that Canadian cattle as a whole a« as healthy as any herd that exists upon the face of the earth, and when we are ruled I 68 out from thus having our cattle imported into Great Britain on the Rround 'hat they ari Eid I sav that there is something more than the principle of protection fnvotedThe're uiould appear to me a small offence if the British Government had pufonepoud or wo pounds per head on every ox that went there we couW h^ve sto^ that but to put a prohibition upon the importation of our cattle, and say " We wm not J;cdve y.mr cattle." and add to that the injury of saying that those before Th^'BrStsIf GovTnmenl and thi British Chambers of Commerce and we should ask for common British justice in this matter. It is not g;» ""'^*;»^''\\^„"j not be imoorted freely, if it is considered in the interests of the British farmers ana The SitXsock raisers that a duty should be levied upon our cattle, all well and ?c:>dwteHeve' in protection ourselves. I would not for one -om-t oppos^ the British Government placing a protection on the herds that are raised m Sand butTcTn"end^that prohibition on the ground of disease ,s something far moS serious It appears to me it should be plainly laid before the British Govern- ^^nt thf. iniustice that is being placed upon the herds of Canadian cattle, not only ^Gr^a'sri a fbu before the ^hde worl^Tbecause at once when Britain placed this LmbaSo uSon our cattle. Belgium, Germany and the Continent pnerally said, f t^ese c^itt^e^are too much diseased to enter the Mother Country of which Canada is a constituent part, surely they are too much diseased to come >n^o Bdg^um and Germanv That wa., a fair deduction from the statement made. Therefore 1 ilimK therTcanbe no wo views on the matter, that we are laboring under a very serious disabimj [n hav ng it stated before the world that our cattle are too diseased to enter he British market. Anyone that knows the conditions under which Canadian cade are shipped, especially if they belong to the humane society, will see that cattle are huddled together in quarters totally unfit for their car., and they are imp oi^rly fed and watered, and in many instances they suffer the same disab h y f?im iUness that perhaps some of you have suffered from, along w't^ myse^ in crossing the ocean Anyone knows that a man is not in the very best condition when he lanf ° 'L^'adfln st^k Great Britain, inasmuch as the present prohibition prejudicially affects Canadian stock rai«r«, and no contagious disease is known to exist in our herds. Mr. John Ransford. Clinton-Will the speaker be kind enough to give the Hous. a lew fur.her figures, if he has them He spoke of the total value being $3,000,000 in 1891, but he did not give us the figures for the year 1892. fi i, li 69 Mh CocKSHUTT-In 1891 the expori. were $8,400,000. it «" °ot "n*') V, K-,, So. that the restnction waVplaced on Canadian cattle, but the amount inff Sho.ooo.ooo per annum. u. _» ».:«• Mr John Mann. Brantford-Without taking up t,me by any remark, of mine I have much pleasure in seconding the motion. „ „ _, ^''- r ''rnSe'VL'Sd-s^SS-^^^^^^^ ?FZ'Z:Z6'^Xrr.,rls::^^'Xur,e the removal of said embargo." There Ts nothing in that resolution which carries out the intention. M» Ransford Clinton-I desire to call the atteniiou of the representatives as we "l^'V^' . , , •« J 11 you what cattle are prohibited, and that is til caTt e CKrgintrne RSubfic. Great Britain 60^ not Pe-^V do1o?"an ol^int to Great Britain under any circumstances whatever. Bu I do J^ "" thYnVs and d; not desTre an^y^hange; I rathe/ prefer, not only in my own in.eres. but ?n the interest of the wLle cluntry. for things to remain as they a andH will tell von whv But first of all let me say that when you speak about th^ StfuAardsSs on board ship, about catfle being ^"dd'ed together, hornbl^ treated, suffering from sea-sickness, not being properly f^^ and watered^ to ^^a^ plainly it is all moonshine. I myself have crossed oyei»°^*"i«^f >P\*";„efun^^ Dav after day. two and three times a day, I have been between decks, "«iuiiy Ssjecng the whole arrangements, and it stands to '«-«»« •*„„C^'«^ut°viS it rmomenfs thought that the sh ppers of cattle are not going to put valuable fJekhTHke cattle on board a boat'^to be treated in the way tTie member from Sfffoid :pe"?s of We have more interest in our pockets than to permit o such » thinir as that The cattle are g ven room sufficient for them, they are tea 'hir^gh", and watered properly. iLd if they do occasionally ^"ff" from -nal de mer it is only what human beings suffer from when they ^'^e a sea voyage, and they very quickly get over that, and it does not do them very much harm. "1 course 'h^reTreo/cfsions when you get into very «»ormy weather that the cattle ^U^^ banged about and bruised more or less, that cannot be avoided even in the case oj sailors, who frequently have broken legs and broken arms. But as r^ards the reason why I would prefer things to remain »s they are, «t is on h^s broad ground that It is far better for the farming interests of this country hatthuigs should remam as they are. because it is infinitely better that cattle should be finished, fed up to 6 7° or cau« they want My our cattle in an unfinished condmon »°d 'hey want to do what is the best paying operation as regards the f""«". ° ?or the Ust in^erMtt animal on English or Scotch soil, and it is for that reason that I. for the ^»""""»" "Canada asl whole, would prefer to see things left ,af they «e and ^ 'J' Cana- dian farmer do the finishing, get more money m «»»'ty- »°^'* '" / ^"^^ P*" K operation for him. I say. without fear of ^^"'^^'^^"'"i^itron > farmed i^n enter floor of this house, that there is no more unprofitable operation a »™er can enter &n this countr'y-I .peak now of Ontario-than to raise cavesa„d to Jet them grow up on his farm to about two years of age. and then se 1 them as stockers^n Sn unfinished condition. Why. gent emen. the very highest Jate ^ th'^^'"/^ even in the present high condition of prices stockers are "alizing only irom 3 to Jo Vi cents a pound, whereas the finished animal brings a great deal more. To SviVou a pr^tical illustration. I sent a carload of cattle "?y";^°^"i»° ^"^K ind received a cable announcing the return only last night, and m the place "3 or 3J cents that I woul3 have got had I «»»>Prf ulS^onTron-there Tncomplete state. I received 6i cents per pound m » «;j'^«^„„7"2;'°",7f S| is the advantaee in reeard to the price you are receiving, to say nothing as to tne L&nTeffS upon ?he soil of. L far'm in q-stionupo" which t^^^^^^^^ finished. There is one more point I want to make. an-J that is t°«' **f ' " ".''T^ whi'- =.1 this world not to ask for too much at once. We have started out to day ^d we have tTen the inufal step in approaching the British Government for pre- ferenTfal tradeTl think we have asked enough, f think we have P™PO"d ~o"^^' J S to the oidinary, slow-going, slow-moving E°gHsh \tatesmen we^^^^^^ them plenty to think over and to runv.nate upon (laughter), and 'orgCKXlnesB sake don't go and spoil our chances in thar direction by launching this upn them for if vou do they may be inclined to turn around and say, "Those Canadians want everything, and the best thing we can do is to give them nothing at all I say prS ri^wly, and let the ordinary English statesman re- e m his mmd one ^'^^yi^A^^'-Bw Elliott, Galt-This question of cattle :, .:H,rtation into the EnglishmaiKe^ra much wider matter than anything else we have ™ef on«dJ;"« t^Sgbt. Naturally the Province of Ontario is the breeding ground ofthe better claw of stock, not only for the Dominion of Canada, but for the Contment of Amer- ga To d^y what do^we find ? We find the Americans, insteau of going to Eng- "nd for the purpose of buying their better class of animals, come to Canada for them. Now. the fact that our animals are said to be unheal hy has a bad Sect on the ca«ie trade, not only of this Produce but of the Dominion and cae not what line of business a man is in it is his duty to see that we farmers are no liscrimTnated a^inst. The time has gone past when |beP;;oX<=« of Ontario can any longer exist by the export of the raw material of the farms, we must finish u'^ and itis only by finishinjit in the very best condition that we can hope fo succeed Thfs Province of Ontario is flooded by a grade of cattle hat are a d.s- «ace ^ince we lost the English market our cattle have gradually deteriorated n thfs country It is true within the last two years we have been making a better Ihowing but we VUI have to work for quite a number of years before we have ex- port cattle up to the standard they were when we lost the English market. 3.r fhU htina the case is it not necessary in common justice that we should ask tba .S^DSGreat Briuin to araU ev the health of the cattle of this c^Sry? We as said before. -depend upon exporting the best of our cattle to the Un»ed States, and to our North-West territory, and we cannot do that unless we have a ciean b 11 of health, and from the fact that we have not in Canada, nor Tver had, any contagious disease; on account of our northern situation we are in the b^st TOSsible conditfon to breed high class stock, and it would be a wonderful boon Sth^amerso? Canada and particularly of the Province of Ontario if we had that embargo taken off. I think we should adopt this resolution as being perhaps the 71 only manner by which we en bring 't before the people of Great Britain >n * com- JXnsive manner, and let us not allow ""'7"' " Pr^^.K-tl'^thS Prov^ Livimf we have asked enough. Gentlemen, we do net ask anything in this Pro^■ S^of OntarL but fair play, and fair play ,s what we ought to get. and I believe we should fearlessly go in the direction of obtammg fair play. ,^ ,., ^ , Mr Cockshutt. Brantford— As mover of the resolution I would like to reply to one « tw^reS; mad. by Mr. Ransford o^ Clinton. Mr. Ransford faiM to HMt the argument entirely, that the moment t. embargo was pl'»,«d on the cat e threxports began to drop.' I showed how they dropped entirely fo7«»». "P'i^ of the influx of the North. West cattle; and as to the conditions "fd" which the Sttle are exported. I myself have seen these conditions. I believe the ?«""» co°: dttions are aViniwy to us in the eyes of every country that wants to buy cattle, and ?t \s on the broKrinciple that if they do not want to buy our stock at present they have no right to say thise cattle are aiseased, unless they can prove disease exists "d I b^heve it can be fearlessly stated on this floor that there are no herds in the world Sat are more healthv than those raised inthj, Dominion of Canada an^^ rsoecially in the Province of^Ontano. If that is so I thmk we are simply askmg [or ?Ke I do ask. do you think it is just and .'ight that our cattle should he under this ilande; ? Let us «/to our representatives, that we believe this should be removed becauseit i^ not right, we should not lie under this imputation unless the facts bear U oS"by a criticallxamination of our herds both before shipment and after shipment. The resolution was carried. 8TATB CABLE FROM CANADA TO AUSTRALIA Mr. John Coatks. Ottawa— Sir Si ord Fleming wish«Ml me to give his aoologies to this Conference for his not being able to attend, and he desired me to second the resolution of the Kingston Board of Trade, which met his views more than his own resolution ; therefore, if you will allow me. sir, I Y>» '»S°'>i,»''« "J°- lution of the Kingston Board of Trade instead of moving that of the Ottawa Board. Mr. George Y. Chown, Kingston— I beg leave to move : That it is of first importance to have the best meant of maintaining the freest and cheapest Intercourse between all parti of the Empire, and that therefore the policy adopted in establishing a state-owneSMble from Canada to Australia Aould M won as pwctic S; extended, in order that the«. may be a complete line of Bntuh itate-owned cabi - round the globe. Mr Coatbs, Ottawa— I beg to second this resolution. I think there cannot be two opinions on this subject. Last year the Ottawa Board °M?u^** T^'J* considerable amount of time with the able assistance of a member of that Board. Sir Sanford Fleming, in getting up a circular letter, which we sent to all the Boards of Trade througho-it Canada and throughout the Empire, and about 90 per cent, of the replies were in favor of the principle of state-owned cables, and 1 can only say. gentlemen, that that seems to be the opinion generally of the Boards of Trade in Canada. I think we are all agreed that the time is not far distant when we shall have a 50 cent rate instead of $1.25. that we have been paying to Aus- tralia. Those of us who have a large amount of cable correspondence with our houses in Australia, feel this to be a very heavy tax indeed, and I, for one, hope the day is not far-distant when we shall have a state-owned cable encircling the globe. Mr. Perrault, Gaspe— I think the gentleman is perfectly sound in his proposition, and I think we ought to have a telegraph union for the British Empire just as we have a p .stal union. I am glad to say I had the honor of proposing, in 1896. the penny postage that is now an accomplished fact. We had to take the initiative in that movement and we have educated the British people to the desirability of having a penny postage between Canada and Great Britain, and I think that penny postage should be ex- tended to every part of the Empire; the same thing with ihe cable. Here we are voting millions for these companies to make a lot of money, and we have to pay 7> the same rale as any stranger m any other part of the world who uses these cables. Why should there not be a kind of telegraphic union of the British Empire, where, in cabling from one part of the Empire to the other we wouhl have a special rate which would be less than the rate charged to a foreigner using these cables for his own purposes If the other governments. Imperial and Provincial, are called upon to sustain these cables, I think they will be of benefit to the citizens of the British Empire, for instead of charging f 1.50 a word we would have a reasonable rate. In France we find the whole telegraphic system is in the hands of the Government, and you can telegraph anywhere for one cent a word, because the Government is the proprietor of the system. I think the same principle should be adopted for the cable system of the Empire, not a cent a word, but a reasonable rate which would pay for the use of the cable in connection with the trade of the country. I do not see the policy of voting millions as we are doing now and being charged the same prices as any foreigner using the cables without having paid a cent towards their construction. Mr. Chown, Kingston— May I be allowed to emphasize three facts in regard to land control. ... . ist. Canada remains the only country in the British Empire which does not control its land lines ; ^ . . tt • j c» » and. That with the two single exceptions of Canada and the United Mates, there is no civilized country which does not control its land lines ; 3rd. That in Canada and the United States the rates are practically double the rates in all other civilized countries. The resolution was carried unanimously. COMMBRCIAL, DBPOT IN LONDON, ENGLAND. Mr T. D. Allan, Toronto Board of Trade— This resolution was to have been moved bv' Mr. J. F. Ellis, but as he has been obliged to remain away on account of indisposition he has asked me to take his place upon this occasion. The resolution is one that I think is of the utmost importance to Canada, and I would preface my remarks by asking: Have the Boards of Trade of this country carefully considered what kind of representation we require there ? how comprehensive it should be ? These are days of big things, days when doing business upon a side street so far as the Dominion of Canada is concerned cannot any longer be allowed to continue. 1 mav say that on the question of the extension of Canadian trade in Europe I have eiven it a very great deal of attention for the past thirty years. It has been my l.'od fortune every year to spend at least three months on the continent of Europe. I am familiar with every country in Europe, and I say w-lh considerable pnde that I think I have done Canada some good in these foreign countries of Europe during these past thirty years, but because of these opportunities I am the more conscious of the fact that the time has now come that in this keen age of competition he who has Koods to sell must do it with energy. We in Canada on account of the excel- lence of our products in certain lines have very easily secured a good position in the British market ; there are many lines that can be profitably exported that at present we do not touch. Why is this r I was particularly pleased two months ago when wan- dering through the Royal Exchange in London to see the tremendous interest that was exhibited in the Canadian exhibits there, and as a native born Canadian I felt that if ever a time had arrived when Canada should seek a higher place in supply- ing Great Britain with her needs that time is now, but if it be our intention merely to do it upon the line of some sub-agency then I say we will be false to our- selves and we will not accomplish the object we have in view. T find as a business man that we business men look at these things somewhat differently from what the politicians do. we do not care in our own businesses how much money we may spend in a given year provided we have carefully thought out the lines upon which we propose to do the expending, and our business shrewdness tells us that u will bring us a return It is upon those lines I would proceed in London at the present time. It is a well understood thing that the easiest place for one to make money is where 73 the money i«. £s there any place on the face of ihc world where there is such an .MfwS of wealth as is to be found in Great Britain? The imports into the thole o Europe last year amounted to about $6,850,000,000. TheM are colossa Tmounu. HoWmuch have we from Canada contributed to that enormous amount ? We are tatiVfied with a very large increa«. and a very creditable increase m the past fewTars i" the amount of our exports abroad, but there is nothing succeed. Ke sucTMS : we have just got so far along now that we must make greater efforu than w Tav'e ever done in The past. an. being supp.ed with .. abiolutely Canadian, we would free ourwlvesfrom a very great nriany of the charge. SaTare being made a^ainat us that u>mt of our products are inferior, ^''hy are Seitnferiorf In many case, they are not Canadian products at *»; but •« «>ld the?e as Canadian prciduct.. I was amazed this past summer, when travelling hrough Russia, to discover how far-reaching the supplying of the B"»sh market ... 1 found butter being made for the British market at 2.6do miles east o^ Mawow It was to me a revelation, and, ..r, we are within three thousand miles o^thi. market, and we are iust beginning to realize there i. something there for us. Germany ha. JoSe along iertain^lines in the eatablishment of her foreign trade ; w« ^ere are ju.t Beginning to feel the quickening impulwof our manufacturers. In 1878 the popuU- S of &rmany was 67 per cent, agricultural and 33 ,Per cent >""«f*«t""'f j„ °- day the proportion iaexactly reverwd. and. while we wi 1 have always in that magnifi- cent No?th!^e.t that our friends have been so loyal in their f«'^"P"?^°;j°;J*y a country that will for all time to come furnish us with all the ^ ""PPJ^ we want there are al«) there unlimited water-powers that can be harness^ Tnd prSci manufactured good, that will supply markets in which they .„ at pr^^ ent unknown. Are we prepared to loiter by the way. or are we prepared to realize hit prSionanddistr^bu^on must gohan^ in hand.and that the business m^^^^^^^ looks^head and anticipates what the near future may have for hi.™ w U m»^e h« plans that will cover those few years to come. We are al proud of this Canada ot ours! and. with a considerable knowledge of other countries I ^b«>'«>l« °° ^""'7, under the sun contains the wealth in undeveloped resources that Canada does If we are true to ourselves we need never know what depression means, but the ime to prepare for what may be dull time, at home is the busy titxie Le us look abroad The establishment ot this London agency, if done o" ,"5*" "es. w.U interest not only Great Britain, but will interest every one of the countriw of Euro^. The establishment of commercial museums has become a very favorite mode of bringing products before the people. I have bf^n amazed in "ave 1 ng through continental Europe to see how widespread this idea is. V^ . that d s city iS Bohemia last year a wonderful exhibition of the ??f""/»""^f °^'t* J^'^ trict. and found a grand exhibition in Leipzic. Vienna, Warsaw. In Be"!'" yo" can go and see gathered together the wonderful products of the German Empire, and I would^ delighted 1 the influence of these Chambers of Commerce would ^ soexert^ that the Dommion Government would see to it ^^a . no J^™*" *^S shall be invested along these lines in London. It is a common jhing now o pick up a paper and find an article like this: 'Mr. So-and-^) ^""'"^ J^y^^ b; put into communication with somebody in Canada Is that the twen- tieth century way of doing business? No. I am sa isfied if the Dommion Government^ould see thiir way clear to start in ^'^ V^%"1P!" .ment thS quarter of a million dollars in this matter, it would be the richest investment thi. 74 think there became in- now I have corn into use country ever hat made. But there are two aide* of thia question ; there is not only our side but the other side. In order to achieve the richest results in the shortest possible time, he who directs that must be a man who knows something of the other side as well as of this side, and I ^y this, that the training that Canadians get, those who have got on at any rate a little in years, has been so varied that their opinions on any subject are very valuable. I have myself gone into the Canadian office and given opinions of Manitoba wheat. I suppose perhaps the Grain Exchange of Winnipeg might not consider them very valuable, but in my younger days I bought wheat, so I felt a little competent to know something about It. My time is about up, hut let me say, last season I saw Australian apples selling in Vienna in October for about ten cents a piece our money. Here we are four thousand miles away from Vienna, we are doing nothing in that ; there is one line we could profitably exploit. I have seen in Holland office furniture made in the United States, and we can compete with them successfully here. I have seen in Belgium furniture made in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and very favorably re- ceived. And so 1 could go through the various countries. This idea just comes to me: Some ten years ago I was sitting at breakfast in an hotel in Warsaw, amongst foreigners whose language was not very intelligible to me, but I sat beside an old sentleman and inadvertently happened to speak to him in the Enslish language He turned to me and said. " I like to hear that tongue." I said, " You can hear more of it if it pleases you." He introduced himself to me. 1 sa»d, " What are you doing here?" He said, "I am an agent of the United States Govern- ment with a roving commission to go anywhere where are openings for American manufactures or produce." terested. I said: "What has been your success?" "Just been battling with the problem of intn.ducing Indian in the armies of Europe, and I have not up till now met with that bnlliant success I had expected, but I am going to keep at it, and if I accomplish what I expect, the corn crop of the United States averages over a.ooo million bushels a year, and I expect I will raise the price to the corn producer five cents a bushel on that 3,ooo million bushels. A few years afterwards I called upon that gentleman in his office, and he showed me figures which demonstrated that he had actually opened a supply for a sufficient amount to influence the price in the west to that extent. I quote you this to show what can be done for Canada if rightly done. Other countries are establishing museums. There is at the present time estabhshed in Singapore, by Japan, a museum of this class ; there is in the city of Mexico a museum of this class ; there is one in Norway ; there is one in Osaka, in Japan. Denmark has been supplying the British market with a great deal of their butter, and they cannot supply enough of it. In connection with the manufactunng of butter in Eastern Russia, which I spoke of a few minutes ago, I made further enquiries, and I found Denmark actually imported from Russia, in igoo, 24,963 pounds of butter, every pound of which was done up in Denmark and exported to Great Britain as the product of Denmark. These things are going on and the possibilities of our sharing in them depend on ourselves. You commercial repre- sentatives of the great bodies of trade, from the Atlantic to the Pacific, have you given these matters sufficient thought ? I rejoice to know the Dominion Govern- ment are realizing the necessity of such a course, and have placed a sum in the estimates. I rejoice to know that the Province of Ontario has done so, too ; but my fear is this, that these gentlemen, however meritorious their intentions may be. have not grasped the necessity to the extent the\ should, and have made this exhibition one that will fill with wonder those who come to examine the exhibits, and will fill with pride the people who bear the expense of placing those exhibits there. I therefore beg to move this resolution : Rttohid : That this Conference hold* the opinion that provision should be made at the earliest possible time for a practical trade represrnfation of the Dominion of Canada in London, by the establishment in that city of a depot of exhibition, presided over by business experts having at their bead a man of comprehensive knowledge of Canadian products, the whole purpose and scope of the enterprise being the increase of Canadian trade throughout the Empire and Europe, and the direction of the attention of the people of the British Itiles to the products and capacities of Canada, both as to emigration and investmenj; W&^ ^.. _'HBWr M I 75 xM V, C Ellis-I have pleasure in seconding tha teaolution lo ably nwved Mr- M. »-. bLLja— » nave H'"""' m.Miion which haa b«en given a great London. I am '^y^^V^''\''''''%'^^^^f^^Zol^XTii i. a well-known fac work which ha. bee«>Jo"« ^'V ^ »'«'^^"'S,'^'Soner and the mean, at hi. com- that the Mtuation of the uthce of 'f« " f" ^ , ^,^,,,, ,nd needaof the manufacturers :n,„d are not .uffic.ent to l""--?-"^*';' . 'f .r^^.r^'^S^ » moat de.irable thing to of producta "^Canada; therefore u h .. ^t K^^^ ^^ ^ ^^„ j.^^ ^^^^^ establish a «"»"i,^"J°° 7., 1 ^ ni "10. f .o.«rnmnnt. I wi.h to g.ve you a rcrroutHn^oTwhlt Ka'Li U-e tho,..ht expressed by the manufacturer, of the resource, and n"""**^»"'?» °* j^^^^^l^^ed by a Provincial Comm.s.ioner whoS'serv?!^Sf trSm^..Xrn"^ieJ^nd shall be appointed and remunerated by the Provincial Government. appropriation °®"c- .K Th»t it shall be the duty of the Trade Commissioner : ^%o^Z^Z^y acquainted with the Brit.sh market and the «>urce, of supply in^Canad..^.^ the po«ibilities of trade between Canada and the other P°"'°r "Vo^'viStThe Urge trade centres in Great Britain and come in touch with the va.io.s Chamber, of Commerce in these cities function of which '•"'Kh!' C°.tdi.. li.e,..«.e, n„p.. >r.d. i~l.x... culoj..,, plc,«r» of public b„ui?:S ...d fac,.n». should b. <<'"°'' °" *' i'^ fjlt'llia b. „. h..d .0 Tenth. Intelligent and courteous Canadian attendants snouiu assist the visitor in hi. search for information. , u „w fh»t the 1 think ,t a matter of P'-ure for the gent^eme^^^^^^^^ Dominion Government have already <»*Lf . *? ""'S of this exhibit, and they have granted the sum of $20,000 towards »«" "*f °''^"""°' "^n „f the project I am pleased to say the Ontario Government ^ave fhought w wen >^ i province, that they have promised the sum of five ♦housand dollar, on beh^H ot n.sj ^ I am sure with the interest that i. taken in this n^a«er that we wiu s ^^^ Sl'oah^ei;:d?ttrlS.T^^^ ties for extending our commerce. Mr. John Russell, Winnipeg— It would be certainly a great benefit to the Dominion of Canada if we had such a bureau of information, where all the products of Canada could be brought together, and where an intending purchaser could be furnished with all the particulars as to quantities, qualities, prices, cost of transpor- tation and rates, etc. I think the office should be made as complete as possible, similar in many respects to the museum existing in Philadelphia. Then the bureau might gather information which would be helpful to Canadian merchants, and save them a good deal of the time and trouble and expense they are now at in gettmg that information. Mr. Coatbs, Ottawa— I quite coincide with those who have spoken to this resolution. The establishment of such a bureau will be of great advantage to Canada. Mr. George Robertson, St. John— I have listened with a great deal of inter- est indeed to the exposition of this resolution very ably made, and I do not rise to oppose it at all, but still I think it might be well to give an opinion ; it is onlv an individual opinion. I have very grave doubts as to whether the Dominion of Can- ada will receive a return commensurate with the expenditure of money that will be necessary to establish just such a bureau in London as has been outlined. Let us take from personal observation : We know that His Majesty gave to the Im- perial Institute the greatest possible interest, it was heralded all over the Empire, and he sent one of his personal friends throughout the Empire with all the prestige of His Royal Highness at the time, but those who have been there lately must say it has been very, very far below the hopes of His Majesty and those interested in it. The other day I received a communication from a friend of mine in London. He enclosed a letter from Sir Frederick Abcll, asking me to present it to the St. John Board of Trade, and notified them that they had taken rooms near Cheapside, where the Dominion of Canada could display their products, etc., showing they recognized that that Great Impenal Inste impressed with the fact that Mr. Robertson has brought out with regard to A™""" can travellers. Those very ketchup men were in Jamaica a month ago. We must bear in mind in connection with Mr. Robertson's remarks that the Lnited States have taken bodily possession of the Crystal Palace for the purpose of making a big show of American manufactures, and we want something businesslike as a set- off for that, and to make it the headauarters of Canadian travellers who go to England if this is to be a success. The possibilities are shown to be simply enor- mous. The resolution was carried unanimously. The Conference adjourned at lo 30 p.m. to ten a.m. to-morrow. THURSDAY MORNING The Conference resumed at lo a.m. Thursday June 5th, 1902. President Ames— The next subject for consideration is Consular Agencies. The Board of Trade of St Hyacinthe has the right to move, but the Secretary has informed me that an arrangement has been made whereby La Chambre de Com- merce du District de Montreal will move their resolution and a representative ot the St. Hyacinthe Board will second it. CONSULAR AOBNCIBS Mr. E. V. Roy, Montreal— We have been discussing very largely matters of trade relations with the British Empire, but it is now time that Canada, who has taken such an important part in trade relations with other countries, should take a further step. I have travelled a great deal in Europe, and I hive remarked that in a great many countries when you speak of Canada and its commercial importance a great many people do not know sufficiently about it. That is why our Chamber of Commerce discussed this matter fully, and we were thinking of a means ot mak- ing Canada more widely known in these different countries, and we thought ot hav- ing— I do not know that " Consular Agencies " is the correct designation, I think Commercial Agencies would cover tiie point better— Commercial Agencies in the principal countries and centres where Canada is apt to trade. Other countries have understood this so well that, according to the Government statistics in Cajiada, we have over 300 representatives of other countries. Of those our neighbors to the South have 173 representatives, while we Canadians in all the world have only 13 representatives altogether, seven of which are emigration agents. Amongst that list of 13 the name of the Bureau of the Government in Paris is not even mentioned. That means, 1 suppose, that they are not sufficiently informed to be able to jjive in- formation as to our trade. Of course the power given to these consuls would tx 78 only relative to questions of trade, because Canada as a co\of y .{j" "°|,^5^ ^f^* |° accredit its own representatives, and that is what we would like to h»ve now. to Save or mi''i«»e"»»»' that Canada should have the "K^'/.t" »\"'^" ^°^^^^^ reprefentatives in all these centres. I do not think >t would be asking too/n"^° «» our Premier to obtain this small favor. There would be. of course, a certain diffi- culty inTaming the right representative, and -°*-^f "''"" T Je2Te"present'a° tho rxnense to the Government. In a great many cases I think these represema SlerSSonlyt^gladtoactas commercial representatives of the Dominion without any Mlary at all In a great many centres an influential commercial man Tthink woulfKery glad to have the title of representative of a great country lUce Canada w°"hout any remuneration. These men codd render P«?at service lo Can- «Ha In both ways they could keep the Canadian Government informed as to the exSjrtlth^tmilMbe made to thoL different countries. On the other hand any Si in thaTclty or country wishing information on Canada would know w^.ere ^address themselves. I am%ure Mr. Allan will agree with me thatm a great many towns in very important centres when the name of Canada is brought up hey wiu IT "Whe" is Canada? What is Canada ? W^at are the products ? They doTiot know, and do not know where to address themselves. (Mr. Allan Hear, hLr°') It is all very well for us to establish in London a commercial depot, but we should go further. ! beg CO move this resolution :— Whittas with a view of extending the trade relations of Canada with foreign conn{™». It is urOTnt thiit the Federal Government shoald appoint commercial agents residing in the principal cities of the old and new world, and w ». ' '^'^rn.^tngTerio^hT^int'co'lSm'erir^r^-i''^^ mJSvSle inTormMion to thi Honorable Minister of Trade and Commerce ; Beitrtsoh.d: That the Imperial Government be requested to recognize fnd accredit to foreign governments the agents appointed by the Canadian Government "d other self- goring countries of the British'^Empire. and to grant them the sufficient attributions and necessary powers to protect our rights. Mr. S. T. Duclos. St. Hyacinthe— I second the motion. Mr Perrault. Gaspe— This question has been fully discussed by the Cham- ber oTcommerceYn Son^real. wl have been in correspondence with the Ottawa Govemment on the question, and we have pressed on these gen lemen the import- ance of having a lafge number of Canadian representatives al over the world. When we p o^se that we simply imitate the United States We are surprised to-day that the United States are known the world over, and why is it ? Fo the shnple reason that they have i.ioo representatives that are d'str.buted a 1 over the world; they are represented in thirty-five different nations, whilst we in Canada have also a certain number of commercial representatives, but where are t^iey? We have the list, which is a short one; we have about five or six. you find them in Australia, in Trinidad, Norway. Argentine Republic, Belgium. South Africa. Iar^a?ca!'Ant.gua and another l.ttle island. While we have those gentlemen who have been appointed by the dominion Government, we find the foreign nations Trc represented in Canada by a large number of people, no ess than 376 "presen^ Utives and our Uear neiRhbors to the south, who are men of business, have no less han i^s. who are distributed through all parts of Canada ; 80 that while we have seven the world over, in some very out-of-the way places, the Americans «ake good ^re to have 175 in Canada. That would explain to a large extent the very exten- sive commercial relations we have with our close ne.ghtxirs. Which are the foreign nations that take the trouble to be represented in Canada ? I can give the pnn- ciprones: France. : ;; Germany, i^fspain, 15; and '^e httle countries of Norway and Sweden, you would scarcely think they have 55 commercial agents m Canada to lc«k after their business. That is the way the thing ,s done. I '"aintain the true policy of Canada is that wherever an American representative . appo.ntedwe should have a Canadian commercial agent next door. We produce t ;Same goods, some of them better than their own ; we are quite as well '^^"[^^tHTa h. .hi^ a^d industrially as they are. and why should we keep our light under a bushel ? mmamm 79 As to the question of expense, the Hon. Minister of Commerce will pr.)bably say : " You are asking for a very large expenditure, and of course the Dominion Gov- ernment has not got revenues enough, especially the commercial section," which is very poorly represented, 1 think, although we have a very g.eat man there in Sir Richard Cartwright, but he has only about $ao,ooo a year to see to the commercial representation of Canada abroad. Sir, the money that would be paid to get representatives abroad to represent the commercial interests of this country would be the very best investment that Canada could make ; but allow me to tell you that out of those 1,100 American representatives we find the salaried officiab amount to 300 out of 1,100 ; 500 foreign non-aalaried appointments, that is distinguished commercial men abroad who are most happy to have the honor of representing the great American Republic in their own country without charging a cent. There are some small fees, I have seen the accounts, and thejr amount to a few dollars a year, for certificates when they have to sign certain certi- cates abroad, but practically they do not receive anything for their services. We find also that there are 300 American gentlemen abroad who represent their country, also practically without being salaried, that is, they have a few fees that amount to scarcely anything. So that the matter of expense cannot be an objection on the part of the Canadian Government. We can find a large number of gentlemer who will be very much honored in their own country to represent this great Dominion of Canada. We find among those foreign appointments in the United States that in China they have 10 Chinamen who are very glad to be representatives of the United States. In France there are 33 French gentlemen, some of them of the highest positions in t'.ie t ade, who have accepted the position of representatives of the Uniied States ; and in the British Empire we find no less than 222 gentlemen who are glad to represent the United States without charging a cent in thetr different sections. Then in Italy there are 24, and in Turkey they have 23. We should enlarge our list of commercial representatives, and we have no business to call on the Imperial Government to allow us to do so. The gentlemen we send there are not consuls, they have no consular duty to perform ; you have the British consul, who is everywhere to be found, to whom you can address yourself with full confidence if your rights as a British subject are in danger. The Government might as well appoint 700 agents, and it would not cost them a cent more. There are plenty of gentlemen in France, Spain, Germany, Australia and the United States who would be pleased to act, in fact I have had letters from most prominent commercial men in the United States who said thjy would be most honored to be representatives of Canada in a com- mercial way in their own localities. I think in that way, by distributing our blue books all over the world, by distributing maps and statistics and so on, we would get this Canada known better than it is to-day. I have travelled a great deal and have found that we are not known abroad— why ? Because we do not take the means which the Uniied States have taken to get known. With these gentlemen in every part of the world, if you have business to transact in any part you go to the Canadian representative, who presents you to the best houses, and he says, " I, representing Canada, am glad to present Mr. So-and-so, of Toronto, Hamilton, Montreal, and so on — a very good firm, he is desirous of doing business here, wish you would favor him," — and you get introduced all over the world. The results would be enormous. I certainly favor this proposition. Mr. J D. Allan, Toronto— I think there is a point that probably has been over- looked ; in our present relations to the Empire have we the right to appoint consuls to foreign countries ? Mk. Roy, Montreal — No ; we are asking for that right. Mr. J. D. Allan, Toronto— A commercial agent, as I understand it, is quite diffeient from a consul. I quite appreciate the remarks that have been made by the gentlemen who have so ably advocated this, but 1 am inclined to look at this rather in the li^lit of— is it politic at present to urge this too strongly ? I think there are other matters along these lines that arc very much more important, fo- instance, had we not better concentrate our efforts upon something that we .ere advocating last night, the introduction of ourselves more 8b fully to Great Britain ? Let me say to you. gentlemen there is a ?« "* Ij^' '^^"y -fvou. I think, may not be fully cognizant of. actually we are not well known throughout GT;-,t Britain. 1 saw that most partkularly marked at the exhibition n Gifiow last season. I want to say this, that Canada never -«^«,"^°« J*/^'^ able showing than at that exhibition, and never did herself more good than she did during the continuance of that exhibition. I was present there for some days and I was simply amazed at the amount of interest that was shown by P«ople 'Pf* r^rn all parts of the British Isles and of the continent. It struck me this way. hat we had field enough probably for a central orgariization to keep us busy for a ittle time to come, and from that would emanate what the genJemen are urg ng. Do not understand me as opposing this. I believe it is a step in the right direction, but is it not a little premature ? Will it not detract from the possibility of our arrang- ing what we want in the way of a central depot in London ? " «»«. then I wou d not be prepared to say one word against it. Regarding what Mr. Roy «« d as to want of knowledge of us on the continent of Europe, that is true I th"''' hourh whenever I have had occasion to seek the British consul I have found no difficult, whatever in the various places on the continent of Europe in securing what I wanted What he says as to the necessity of increasing knowledge of us abroad is also quite true. I found myself, for instance, in Russia, where I have the honor of addressing the Chambers of Commerce in German not being able to speak Russian, that all that very large and important body knew of Canada was that it was the place where the iSoukhobors ha«f gone. In that ,'^"°*^^"°" 'f '"^i^^/J° our friends from the North West that I was particularly delighted at the h>gh test - mony they bore to the character and standing of the Doukhobors. and regarded it as a national crime that they had been forced out of Russia. They sa'd tc, me " Tell your people to have patience with these people until they become habituated to vour ways, and acquainted with their surroundings, and Canada will bless the day she brought the Doukhobors there." (Hear, hear). I merely make these sug- gestions in order to see if the gentlemen have fully thought out this difficulty which may be in the way of the British Government giving us power. Mr Roy. Montreal— Mr. Allan is alluding to Consular Agencies ; when I moved the resolution I made the remark that Consular Agency was not the proper designation, but rather Commercial Agencies. Mr. Allan. Toronto-I regret I was not in when Mr. Roy commenced his remarks. . -.i. * * Mr. Munro. Montreal-The object of this resolution is to improve the status of the trade representatives which Canada has already, and to have more appointed. The idea is that our Government should accredit private commercial agents a cer- tain points, and that the Imperial Government should be asked to acknowledge them and give them their support. I just wish to say a word as to our countrvr having men who are unpaid. We have men now that are c .inparatively unpaid and these men are worse than useless to us. There are three sets of men in the West Indies ; one of them is non est, he could not be found ; the next one has a brass plate signifying he is Commissioner for Canada, and is at the same time agent for American flour; there is nothing Canadian about his place. I put it to him straisht. that in every island we visited there were some men to champion Cana- dian interests and Canadian flour, but when we come to an island where we have a commissioner, and the one man that deals in flour, you cannot pra.se Canadian flour. The same is true in another island. A commissioner there showed me his letter of authority ten years old. I asked what it implied, and gave him full scope to answer freely, and I said to him : " It appears, then, it is no part of your province to initiate trade, you merely answer correspondence and so on. 1 have been around your warehouse, and 1 do not find a vestige of Canadian goods m all vt-ur stock " ' It is true," he said ; " I do not handle Canadian goods. " Is it not part of your business to handle Canadian business?" " It is my part to answer correspondence." Canada is not a whit better off, but a little worse for them. We want to raise the standard of the commissioners, and to get men who will give their whole time, and we would then be able to extend the trade of Canada. 8t Mr. Perrault, Gaspe — I cannot allow these remarks to pass unnoticed. I regret that the Government has been so ill-advised as to appoint these gentlemen — that is all that proves, it proves bad administration, it does not kill the principle. When we see the United States, France. England, Germany and every other com- mercial country appoint so many of these agents I r'o vot think it belongs to us, who have done nothing, to criticize that principle. Mr. Munro, Montreal— Nobody is. Mr. Perrault, Gaspe— Yes. Are we not paying our o" expenses to come here and speak for Canada, and are not there men of standing who will be glad to speak of Canada abroad ? Have not I been twice to London myself to attend the Chambers of Commerce of the Empire at my own expense? And you have scores of gentlemen who have attained wealth and social position who would be glad to have the honor of representing their country and doing their very best to promote Its interests. Some of the best men in France are ready to represent Canada. They know Canada was a colony of their's one time, and they are ready to help Canada. So it is in England, you have a number of gentlemen there who will be honored to be commercial agents of Canada. So in Germany, and everywhere else. I am glad to say it is the Prrtrince of Quebec that started this question, -nd shows itself ahead of the times. I think Canada would be neglectful m its d I'.y if it did not adopt this plan. Mr. Roy, M-^ntreal- There i^ nothing in the resolution about paying or not paying ; I think it would be wise to let the Government decide as to that ; we can- not dispose of the Government's fu.idb ; we can ask them to name these agents. Mr. Saunders, }oderich— I have just returned from a trip to the Old Land, and I was very much struck there with the reception 1 received because I was a Canadian. If ever I felt proud of my being a Canadian it was on this trip. I was told there many amusing incidents in regard to American salesmen. There is a difficulty about getting into an Englishman's office, but I did not experience any owing to my being a Canadian. I took the precaution to mark my card, " Goderich, Ontario," and when they saw that on the card I got immediate admission, and in only one case was 1 asked to wait for four or five days. I am sorry to see so many solid headed business men as I see around me actiig upon feelings of sentiment rather than hard headed business experience; while I admire our Montreal friends in putting forth this motion I feel they are actmg too much on sentiment, and not on business experience. I know there are many people who will feel it an honor to act for Canada, but the moment you have hired help their services are according to the salary they receive. I would suggest instead of "Consular Agencies" we should adopt Mr. Roy's suggestion, "Commercial Agencies. I say pay them a good salary. President Ames— The resolution proposed Commercial Agents. Mr. Saunders, Goderich— I feel from the experience I have had in England that the time is just now ripe for manufacturers in all lines in Canada to push their business. I was not there five days before I got more trade than I could handle, I refused double the orders, and I will go back and take these orders if I can enlarge my factories. There are two points to observe in shipments to the old country, quality of goods and prompt delivery. Mr. Bell, Winnipeg — I would like to say, on behalf of the Western members, that while it is not a matter that comes particularly and directly to us, we have only a general interest, yet we heartily endorse this. We want good men to repre- sent us, we would like to have good men who would do this voluntarily. I repre- sent a foreign country in Manitoba and they do not pay me, and 1 am sure I have been able in two or three directions to direct importations from that country to Manitoba. I did not ask anything, I was glad to afford the information to get goods cheaper for our own people, and possibly in the future to send some of our goods down there. There is no reason why we should sneer at men who will act volun- tarily. We most heartily endorse this proposition. Let me just say one word about a case in the far East, A Japanese Prince, who was representing Japan on a mission in England and America, spent .an evening with me at my house in Win- 8a nipcK just immediately after the Japanese and Chinese war, and he gave me an instance of why Canada should have representatives m some form in Japan and China. He said at a certain place they had contracts with some American con- tractors to deliver flour for the Japanese army. He said. " On one consignment we had i,ooo sacks of Ogilvie's flour, and the different regiments sent to me to get some more of that flour, for it was the finest flour they had seen. The contractors had been shipping Oregon flour. He went to the American contractor and said, We want some more of that flour," and he was told, "Thai comes from a mill down near a place in the United States called Chicago, and it was such good flour they had to throw it down, and to-day we could not get another sack of that i'"- [ove or money." He said, " When I landed ia Vancouver the first thing I saw in the little grocery stores was Ogilvie's flour, and then 1 regretted Canada had not m. de herself known, and the American had pulled the wool over my eyes, and I had not been able to get what I wanted." We do not want the standard brands of goods m this country located down near Chicago when they are so good. The resolution was carried unanimously. FAST STBAM8HIP SERVICE. Mr. G. S. Campbell, Halifax- When the invitation from Toronto came down to the Halifax Board of Trade, there was one subject which seemed to appeal to us more strongly than any other-I refer to that of transportation, and we thought this Congress would afford an excellent opportunity to bring before the various Boards of the Dominion this very often discussed question of a fast Atlantic service. We therefore sent up the resolution which appears in our name, and it is quite clear that Halifax is not alone in thinking of the importance of that question, because there are no less than six resolutions on the same subject. I would just like to take this opportunity of thanking the Toronto Board of Trade for having been courteous enough to place our resolution first on the list. We feel that this is a compl.meot which has been paid by the West to the Last, and we very much appreciate it. We are quite well aware, Sir, that the mere fact that this resolutioii has been placed at the top of the list does not mean necessarily that this resolution will be carried ; in fact we have been looking over the resolutions which have been presented on this subject, and we have also been talking with some of the delegates on this suLiect, and we have decided not to move our own resolution, and the suggestion whici I make is this, and I hope it will meet with the unanimous decision of the Conference ; that we take the preamble of the Montreal Board of Trade resolution, which we think is excellent, and that we take the Toronto Board of Trade resolution— wehave no objection to the Montreal resolution aa a resolution.it is excellent referring to transportation facilities throughout the Empire generally, but we do not think it covers the ground with regard to a fast Atlantic service. I think we were all Ulad to see by the morning papers that there is evidently at last a chance of this iervice being organized, but I also read in the papers that the question of subsidies does not come until the meeting of Premiers in London, and there- fore it is quite clear that it is just as important hr us as ever .>t was to place our views very forcibly before our Government before the Ministers go to London. You will permit me then to give a few reasons why we think this service would be of advantage to the Dominion. I might say also that we do not come here asking for any special consideration of the Maritime Provinces in connection with this question, we take the broad ground that this service is in the interest of the whole country, and on that ground alone do we ask you to support the resolution. I suppose it will be admitted generally that we do require better mail and transportation facilities between Canada and the United Kingdom, but when we come to the question as to how far the Government would be justihed m going to- wards improving those -facilities then there may be some difference of opinion. \\ e hear it stated that Canada cannot afford a fast service, that she neither has the wealth nor the population to justify it, that it will never pay, that the more you in- crease the speed of the ships the more you decrease the carrying capacity, ha somewhere about ai. iS knot service is al! w- req.iirft. We m Halifax believe that 83 this service should be really a fine service, and first class in every particular, and I think in saying that we represent the great body of opinion in the Maritime Prov- inces. The mistake those gentlemen seem to make is this, that they look upon this as a purely commercial undertaking. We knovir that a service of 24 and 25 knots would never pay us as a commercial undertaking in the meantime in Canada, but it is more than a Canadian undertaking, it is a national and Imperial undertaking, and we ask under these circumstances for national and Imperial support. Now, we have what advantages ? In the first place we have geographical position which assures the shortest possible voyage across the Atlantic ; we would be absolutely throwing that advantage away unless we have the fastest ships. If we can reduce the Atlantic voyage to four days or even less it will have an immense effect not only in Canada but in the United Kingdom and in the United States. There is the question of our mail service. I am sure we have reason to feel humiliated at the fact that the great proportion of our mails continue and have for years con- tinued to pass through the United States ports. If we had, say a 24 knot service crossing the Atlantic to a Canadian port not only would we carry and dis- patch all our own mails, but we could land mails in New York by a Canadian port in quicker time than we now get them by direct service. Then, there is another advantage which we refer to in our resolution : this line of ships would give an excellent opportunity for the quick transportation of perishable freight. We know there is an illimitable market in the United Kingdom for our products, and parti- cularly for our perishable products such as poultry, fruit, butter, eggs and so on, and the important thing about those products is that you want to get them as quickly as possible into the hands of the consumers. With steamers such as I have spoken of sailing regularly from Canadian ports they would give an immense. stimulus to our export trade, especially in perishable goods. Then, there is the passenger business I have heard it said by somebody that Canadians are too poor to travel by fast ships. I think we had better give our Canadians a chance. (Hear, hear). Where does the cream of Canadian travel go today ? It goes, as we know, through the port of Boston and New York, and whv ? Simply because they get better ships and make shorter passages. I was speaking to a gentleman last night, a prominent member of this Convention, and he told me he had crossed thirty or forty times, and !)•» had crossed only once in a Canadian ship ; why ? Simply to save time. When I was in Montreal I was speaking to a steamship man, and he told me there were 250 passengers came across the Pacific to attend the Coronation, and less than 100 of those passengers took passage by a Canadian port ; about 175 of them went by American ports. If we had had first-class Canadian ships we would have had every one of those passengers, and we should have had them. I think Canadians have sufficient pride and patriotism to patronize their own ships if they only get a chance. There is another item mentioned in our resolution, and that is emigration. We all concede that is a most important item before Canada today, and we say a line of fast ships running between Canada and the United Kingdom would give a valuable stimulus to emigration. Another thing, those ships wo'.ld leave British ports, and the emi- grants that would come by them would he p bubly of the very best class. Another point, if we are going to have a fast p .imsh.M> rjervir.e we nast have an improved land service ; this is going to give an improved ioilv;ay servic ;. Geographically we are far apart ; what we want is cohesion, and there is no bet er way of producing that result than by improving transportation facilities. Anoi ler point is. we are going to take up the question of Imperial defence, and those fa.st steamships will be a very important factor in that question, because, naturally, ships subsidized by our Government and by the Imperial Government will be to a very considerable extent under the control of those Governments, and would be at the call of the Admiralty in time of war, consequently our contribution to these ships might very fairly be considered a contribution towards the defence of the Empire. We think this is a most opportune time for our Government to approach the Iniperial Govern- ment on this question, because we know that recently the American capitalists have acquired control of the principal transportation lines, and there is great fear that the commercial supremacy of the ocean is going to be transferred from the ritish to the American flag. Those fears are probably exaggerated, but we say 11 i 84 this is an excellent time for our Government to approach the Imperial Government, and we believe they will find them in a most receptive mood. I hope we will not be faint-heaned about this question, but that we will take the bull by the horns and provide a first-class service ; let us have confidence in ourselves ; Canada has never made! a mistake when she has had confidence io herself. (Hear, hear.) We want a first-class service, and nothing else. Mr. De Wolfe, Halifax— The mover of this resolution has gone so fully into the question that I rise only to second his motion ; but I would call your attention to the fact that the preamble of the Montreal and the complete Toronto resolution is not sufficient, it does not cover the ground we want; we will havi to embody in that the last part of the resolution of the Halifax Board of Trade. I hope the delegates here will support this resolution heartily ; the time is opportune. Mr. Campbell— I co-operate in the suggestion of the addition of that clause Mr. DeWolfe has mentioned. Mr. McFee, Montreal— The preamble of this resolution is the preamble of the Montreal resolution. Our resolution includes, no doubt, the principle of a fast line. We are not here to oppose a fast Atlantic service at all, but our res^ution includes a fast Atlantic service as well as other fast lines. We include a Pacihc line as well. I will support the resolution that is before us, but I wish the resolu- tion of the Montreal Board shall be brought up as a separate resolution. Mr. Drummond, Montreal— Our Montreal resolution is practically in the same position as that of yesterday. If you read our resolution you will see it is wide and imperial. I think if the Conference would pass the Montreal resolution first we wil! then support the resolution which is before us. Mr. Campbell— I had not time to consult the various Montrea! members before moving the resolution, and as I said before we quite approve of toe Montreal reso- lution as it stands, except it s not definite enough on the fast Atlantic service. 11 it is agreeable we would be very glad to support the Montreal resolution as it stands, and then support the Toronto resolution with our addition. The consideration of Mr. Campbell's motion was deferred until the Montreal resolution was dealt with. Mr. Thom, Montreal— As representing the Montreal Board of Trade I have very much pleasure in introducing the subject of steamship communication between different parts of the Empire and the Colonies. This resolution wr.s prepared solely from the standpoint of Imperial and Colonial interest, and we endeavored as far as possible to cover what we thought would be in the best interest of the Empire as a whole. The resolution reads :— Whtrtat tlie marine ccmmercial supremacy of Great Pritain might be unfavorably affected by the bleamship Truat recently formed by American Capitalists ; Whereas in he opinion of this Conference it is the duty of Carada as Ibe leading Colony of the Empire to assist in retaining for the Empire said commercial n anne 'upremacy Wh-reat in the Canadian Pacific Railway Canada possesses one transco -.1= .-ntal lire and another line, under construction through Canadian territory, wl! a.^a connect lUe Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Whereas in the commercial contest between the British Empire and foreign countries the question of rapid and etficient steamship service both on the Atlantic and Pacihc oceans is of argent importance ; Therefore resolved That .liia Conference of Canadian Boards of Trade urges upon the repre- fentatives of Canada at the Conference to be held in London in Junj next between British and Colonial statesmen, to impress upon that gatherrg ;he importanc. of t e Mother Country and the Colonies adopting a policy under which, (by subsid s or othw- w-se) fast lines of steamships wUl be secured and ret»ined for tne devel -orient and con- irol of trade betwwi the United Kingdom and her possesions, Jiu be. tn tli« Colonies themselves, and for the provision of good mail services. (Subsequently Mr. Thom eliminated the whole of the prean-.hle, and the words " by subsidies or otherwise " in the resolution itself). The first matter we seem to refer to is the question of the steamship trust, which Kac r,r. doubt receivef* a m-eat deal of attention from everybody in Canada, and has been receiving a great deal of attention on the uart ot the bntish snip owners, i he 85 opinions given over there are not altogether unanimous. Many au of the opinion that it is a good thing to the British ship owner to be able to palm off on the American capitalist a great deal of tonnage that was almost obsolete, paying a pnce for it fifty per cent, more than it was worth, and m a matter of a few years this tonnage will become useless ; in the mpantime British enterprise will continue building. On that point I am not at all afraid but what Britain will come out on top notwithstanding Pierpont Morgan's connection with railways and so on. The next point we touch on is that we are the leading Colony of the Empire, with a population of five and a half millions and witii a very large country, and I think it is only right that we should go heartily into thi matter of communication between the Motherland and Canada, and anything we can do to strengthen the bond between the countries should be done without any hesitation. It is not a question of money altogether with us. in fact that hardly should be considered. What we want is the best communication possible not only between Canada and Britain, but we want communication between Canada and all the other Colonies ; we want communication with South Africa, with the West Indies, and with Australia, we want to make it as extensive as we can, and advertise Canada in the best possible manner. There is a large field for Canadian goods, in South Afnca, and no doubt our manufacturers will be in a position to supply them with a good deal of the machinery required, and our friends in the North-West will be able to supply them with what flour and wheat they may want. „ r r. i j We have next considered the question of the Canadian Pacific Railway and trans-continental line. There is no doubt but that that railway has done a very great deal for Canada, but there is also the fact that Canada has done a very great deal for the Canadian Pacific Railway. (Hear, hear.) Some may say there is not sufficient trade for another line from the Pacific to the Atlantic ; we think there is, and every intelligent efiort should be made towards increasing the facilities from the West to the East. There is already building another railway, and by all means let us support another railway company. If competition is the life of trade, I think, possibly, another railway will be the life of the North-West of Canada. Not only should we encourage railway lines, but let us encourage that communication. Our Government has done a great deal in canal accommodation, but we want a little more water communication to keep down the cost of transportation. I think we should encourage, as far as we can, the French River scheme, a scheme tii?.! has been spxjken of in our Houses of Parliament, and I havt it on the authority of one of the Ministers that that canal would be navigable hf vessels drawing 20 feet of water. If our canals today, which are the finest in the world having a draught of 14 feet, had a draught of 20 feet how much better off we should be. If that canal reaches to North Par the same authority states he understands the Canadian Pacific Railway will build' a double track frua- Nortl^ Ba> to Montreal. That would be an enormous advantage to the trade from my port, and I only hope it may be brought about. . The next item in the preamble ^e sesm to have considered was the question of rapid and efficient steamship service bet' on the Atlantic and Pacific. I do not know whether this heading wJ!l rover the resolution that is about to follow, tne question of rapid steamship scr-'ice; I do not wish to speak on the subject just now, but 1 may say it is certainly very desirable that we should have a fast ;;ervice on the Atlr'.ntic from our Canadian potts to B tain, and also f om the Pacific coast to China and Japan. We want fast steamships there, steamships that will bring us passengers from the ''Vest, as we know there is a very large passenger traffic from there, ai)d then we want fast t ailway communication from the Pacific to the Atlantic, and last steamers from the Atbnlio to the P.ri^ -h pous. I '\o not intend to make any remarks as to the qu';stion of s leed, I do not think the queition of speed came up at all wher considering this mattei Th?r caacii \ a-v doubt in the mind uf anv geotleman present that this bi:bject is one oi the very gr'iatesl importance, and should receive the first attention at the hands vi Sir Wilfred Laur.er when meeting the Prei. lors in London. This tast service v ill !.ol only be ,i benei'it to Canada, but will be .efit those service c«n oniy be maintained Britain equa'y as v oil. tr.^r subsidies snu sub,:i';5o This matter of fast a very considerable III 1 (I - f 1.91 ^ Sfi !ii amount. What these figures are I am not prepared to say, but in reading an article in one of our English Journals nn the question of Colonial support, and in opposi- tion to the Pierpont Murgan scheme the writer is very strong on the point of subsi- dies from the Mother Country to steamers of that sort. I will read an extract from " Fairplay." " Mr Morgan and the leaders of advanced commercial thought in America have realized that the commercial prosperity of a country depends upon the cheapening of the channel between the prmlucer and the consumer. We and our Government must learn the same lesson. Steamship channels should be maintained to all the colonies at whatever cost is necessary, and colonial produce should be enabled to reach our markets in fair competition. In order to bring this about the country must agitate for subsidies equal to those of any other country for the ^establishment of steamship lines to all our colonies, the abolition of light dues, and better legisla- tion for shipping." I think that covers anything I should say on the subject, and I trust the reso- lution of the Montreal Board of Trade will receive your favorable consideration. (Applause). Mr. Jar vis, St. John — It affords me great pleasure to second this resolution, which, in its general terms, will commend itself to this meeting generally. There is a diffictihy, perhaps, about h.ivinfj two resolutions in such an important subject as this, because it is just possible A nay hamper the actions of those who have to carry them into effect, and 1 think we will attain our end better by passing this resolution of the Montreal Board of Trade, and then leaving the details to be worked out in the Conference on the other side. This is what we have been aiming at for the la it 20 years in St. John. We have had public discuss'on after discussion, passed resolution after resolution, and I am glad this question has attained the position it has to-day. During the last three or four years a new era has begun in the history of Canada, of South Africa and of the British Empire throughout the world. Those events which have passed ovar the Empire in the last three years have linked us together in sentiment, and while I agree that sentiment is not to be the ultimate guide in our resolutions, we need to have sentiment in all parts of the British Empire ; but we must back that sentiment up from the business standpoint, and the way to follow that up is by endeavoring to develop the great question of transportation, and that question of transportation is closely linked with better lines of steamships and better railway communication in all directions. Mr. Eaton. Owen Sound— I would sugg- .t that the third paragraph of the preasrblc be left out. In my opinion it is most desirab' . t'iat this fast Atlantic line should be freed from the control or domination of anj ra (way company at all. Mr. H. J. WicKHAM, Bobcaygeon Board of Trul.— This subject of subsidizing fast steamship lines is one which has been brought be*^ore 'he Canadian public by an organization which I have had the honor to be secretary of lor some eight years, and I wish to read three or four lines which embody in a few words the conclusion arrived at, the policy which the Navy League in Canada has been advocating : " I feel convinced that Great Britain and her great stif-governing colonies, by uniting in a well considered and comprehensive scheme for the liberal subsidizing of fast steamship lines of the class I indicate between the various parts of the Empire, manned and officered exclusively by trained men of the Royal Navy Reserve, and always ready for an emergency, will secure the means whereby our trade would receive adequate protection, and the means adopted, by facilitating and stimulatinf, inter-Imperial and inter-Colonial trade, will build up and solidify the Empire." There is one aspect of the resolution which is now before this Conference to which I wish especially to address myself ; it is the history of the steam navigation of the world, and the manner in which the governments of various countries at JifTerent times have addressed themselves lo this subject, because, sir, of all the industries which we can conceive of making for the welfare of any country I contend 87 that the shipbuilding induttry and the navigation industry is easily first. (Hear, hear). I suppose speakinK to an assembly ol gentlemen like you it is hardly ncces> sary for me to emphasize or repeat general principles which have been laid down by such writers as Capt. Mahon, t)u( at the risk perhaps of telling the gentlemen what they have already read for themselves many times, i may say that we should very carefully consider what the teachings of history have been in this connection. Capt. Mahon in dealmg with the question of sea-power,— and mind you by th« word " sea-power " he does not simply deal with military power, but he speaks of commercial power as well,— lays it down thai those nations who, though c impara- tively small and insignificant, have stretched out their arms and by a wide and judicious policy have strengthened and fostered their mercantile marine, have be- come great and prosperous, and he goes on to point out that the nations who by reason of their internal resources and the richness of those internal resources have allowed all their policy to be directed towards the development of those internal resources, have suffered by neglecting to develop at the same time mari- time industries. This question of the subsidizing of mail contract steamers, or merchant steamers all over the world, is one which from time to time has received the consideration of every country which aspires to be a nation, and we in Canada at this period of our history have this great advan- tage, that we have the experience of all other nations to go to in order to adopt that policy which suits our position and our requirements the best. The United States ha\ j been considering within the last few years this general question of subsidization of their steamships and the improvements of their maritime facilities, so that the foreign carrying trade of the United States amounts to something like $ 1 70,000,000 or $180,000,000 in a year, and the people of the United States realize that $170,000,000 or $180,000,000 might just as well be paid to American steamship companies as to foreign steamship companies for doing their trade. The history of steamship navigation commenced about the year 1839, when the British Government first gave a subsidy to the Cunard service, and for the next forty years Great Britain spent over forty- five millions of pounds sterling in develop- ing her large steamship lines all over the world. That is in defiance of the general principle of free-trade which Great Britain has been following in other respects; it was not simply done on commercial lines, in fact it was done, as has been admit- ted by Mr. Scugamore in a report to the British House of Commons, in defiance of commercial principles. It was necessary, and the Government saw it was necessary that they should control and have, for semi-political reasons, lines of steamships connecting them with their colonies in various parts of the world, and they were prepared to pay the sum necessary to insure that. I do not mean to say for one moment that this policy of starting these fast steamship lines has been the sole cause of the shipbuilding industry which has been established in Great Britain, but I do say this, it has done a very great deal in that direction; and we find Germany, France, Russia and Italy realizing the great advantages which Great Britain has derived from her steamship connections, and the power she had in her mercantile marine, have all set themselves about to endeavor to follow her example, and they have all made use of her experience, and they have ail unanimously almost, adopted the principle that if they want to have sea communi- cation the Government of the country are justified in s[>ending within any reason- able limit whatever money may be required in order to perfect that communication. Noticeably, I think the example of Germany in this respect is one which should receive very careful attention. Notwithstanding what Mr. Pierpont Morgan has done it is evident the policy of the German Empire has been such that he cannot control their steamship lines, in fact, the contract with the North German Lloyd Steam- ship Company expressly forbids anything of the kind, and 1 think there should be an entire revision of the holdings upon which companies operate steamship lines, having in view all such possible contingencies as combines affecting national questions. Mr. Thom, Montreal — With your permission I wish to make some slight change in the resolution offered by the Montreal Board of Trade. There h!»s been some slight objection raised to a portion of the preamble, and I would like to have 88 !;'» removed from the resolution the entire preamble, also the words, " by subsidies or otherwise," in the resolution itself. We are not particularly interested how the lines are kept up so long as they are kept up, and we hardly think it is desirable that we should say to Britain how she shall keep it up. Mr. Thompson, North Sydney — Do not the conditions already exist ? There is a fast line between the United Kingdom and Asia, between the United Kmgdom and Africa, between the United Kingdom and the West Indies and South America, and the only spot we have no fast line to is Canada, and what we want to get is a fast Atlantic service. Mr. Drummond, Montreal — I think the gentleman has not mad the resolution. If he reads the resolution he will see it is not only between England and her Colonies, but between the Colonies themselves. There is no fast line between Canada and Australia. We would like that resolution carried, and then we will join in with this Atlantic service resolution. Mr. W. F. Hatheway, St. John — I have just received a letter from the St. Stephen Board of Trade, three hnes of which I will read : Resolved : That this Board if of opinion that the first effort of the Dominion Government for the establishment of a fast line of Atlantic steamships should be in the direction of a fast trade service. The resolution moved by Mr. Thorn, with the preamble and the words in the resolution, " by subsidies or otherwise," eliminated, was carried unanimously. President Ames — We will now have Mr. Campbell's motion, consideration of which was deferred until the last resolution was dealt with. Mr. Campbell, Halifax — It is understood this resolution refers specifically to a fast Atlantic service, and I beg to move : Resolved : That the establishment of a fast Atlantic steamship line from a Canadian port to a port in Great Britain would assist trade in the Dominion, would increase our export trade, especially in perishable products, would add greatly to the volume of passenger travel through Canadian channels, would give an impetus to shipbuilding in Canada, and would, with the aid of our Trans-continental railways, bind the different portions of the Empire more closely together. Further resolved : That speed should be the first consideration in the selection of ports of call and terminal ports, and that the conduct of the enterprise should be under the control of the Dominion Governmeni. And further resolved : That our representatives at the London Conference be respectfully asked to seek financial supi>ort and co-operation from the Imperial Government towards an undertaking of such importance to Canada and the Empire. Mr. De Wolfe — I rise to second this motion. We have already discussed the matter, and we ask your support to this not as a Canadian fast service, but as one link in the chain which cements the Mother Country with all her Colonies. Mr. C. B. Watts, Toronto — I wish to propose an amendment if the suggestion will not be accepted by the mover of this resolution, by adding thereto the following : Resolved : That our Government should make it a standing condition of all subsidies, giants and bonuses that the rates charged from Canadian ports shall be as low as the minimum rates through American ports for the same distance or on United States products. We in Canada have for years been granting bonuses and subsidies to our rail- roads and our steamship lines, and I think that every business man here will agree with me that one of the great results has been that in many cases American pro- ducts have been carried over our lines at much lower rates than our Canadian goods, and it is the bonuses and subsidies which we have granted the railroads and steamship lines which have enabled them to do this and at the same time pay their dividends. Our Governments, both Provincial and Dominion, every year vote thousands, and in fact sometimes millions of dollars in l)onuses to our railroads, and they do not get stock or any other return for it whatever. I knew from personal knowledge that in some instances these bonuses go into the pockets of promoters, because in addition to the bonuses they get authority from the Government to bond the roads for the full cost of those roads, when you take into consideration the muni- 89 cipal bonuses and the provincial bonuses which they receive in many cases. I do not think there is a single business man here that in voting a municipal bonus to a manufactory in his own town would allow them to provide for their rival towns cheaper goods than they would sell at home, and in this case there is a much wider principle involved, because here we are providing the means of transports through our Canadian ports, and as one of the speakers said yesterday, it is a sentimental matter to a certain extent, why should we not make it a business matter, and if the Dominion Government will make it a condition of ail future bonuses, subsidies and grants that we should have at least as low rates as are granted through American ports, and as are granted on American products for similar distances, then we will have an opportunity of getting some return for our money. I think you will find that the adoption of such a clause as this would work a \,ronderful difference in rates in a very short time. As soon as it could be made at all universal in its application, the business men and the farmers of this country would receive a very great benefit from it. Those of us who are dealing with freight rates know full well that one of the greatest difficulties we have to meet with is that we do not know what freight rates we have to compete with. The grain exporter here in Canada will figure his cost of grain, his freight rates, and give his quotation to his foreign correspondent, but he does not know but what some freight agent that gives him '.lis rate has given his American rival a much lower rate on American wheat or products of some kind. The same thing is true of our cattle trade, lumber or any other industry. 1 think in this way we will do one of the greatest things for the Canadian business man. I think there is no more opportune time than the present to bring this matter up. There has never been such a Conference of the business men of Canada as is here to-day, and I think there never was a time when we should stand up for our rights as at this time, and ask the Government to take action along this line. There is one other matter besides freight rates in that connection, and that is emigration rates. We are spending every year enormous sums to promote emigration into Canada, and what do we find ? You have seen it in the public press the last few weeks that if the Canadian Pacific Railway would not make such rates as the American rail- roads practically dictate to them, they would prevent any emigrant rates being collected over American steamers to Canadian points. It may be we may spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for the promotion of emigration, but the steamship companies make sitch high rates that the emigrants are taken to American points, because the steamship companies and associates will not give such rates as will reach Canadian points. This is one of the most essential matters for the future of Canada that we have to deal with in this Conference, and I will be very glad indeed to see some gentleman second this motion and see it carried unanimously, Mr. Thom, Montreal— I would like to make a short reply to the gentleman who has sat down. I think his remarks referring to freight rates are a little irrelevant with the motion that is before the Conference, but I may say that so far as freight rates are concerned, west-bound and over those lines receiving subsidies from the Government, it is already provided that rates by way of Canadian steam- ers and Canadian ports shall in no case exceed the rates by way of American ports. So far as east bound business is concerned, that, I take it, will govern itself; all freight rates from Montreal are taken in competition with American ports. I do not see how the matter should be introduced into any resolution whereby the Gov- ernment should control east-bound rates. On the matter of west-bound rates I grant you it can be done. As to the matter of emigration, I do not have the fear that the gentleman has who has just sat down, that the steamship lines will make such rates to Canada that it is almost impossible to get here. To adniit that would be to admit that the Pierpont Morgan scheme would be taking the trade in British goods, and putting it into the hands of a few American shipowners. Such is not the case, because the amount of tonnage controlled by the Pierpont Morgan scheme amounts to something like 840,000 tons, and the amount of tonnage under the British flag is something over 14,000,000. How is it possible that a man controlling such a few steamers could at all dictate as to what policies the other steamship lines should take ? It is quite true the principal of these lines are fast 4 • rr- !»r fi. iii 90 passen{;er lines, but there are a large number of other steamers not in this combina- tion. We have the Elder-Dempster, and they are carrying a large number of passengers from Britain and the Continent in competition with American steam- ship lines. The Canadian Pacific Railway, as a matter of fact, are making the rates from Halifax, St. John, or Montreal, $12.00 through to the North- West. I think that is low enough. I do not think we need fear that Pierpont Morgan's lines are going to hurt us in any way. In this morning's paper I see it mentioned that perhaps there will be a British combination by Sir Alfred Jones and Sir Chris- topher Furness. If that goes into force I do not see that we need have any fear. Mr. Flavelle, Lindsay, seconded Mr. Watts' amendment. Mr. G. S. Campbell, Halifax — We will accept that addition to our resolution. Mr. DeWolfe, Halifax— The phrase •' as the minimum rate " is rather con- flicting, because there might be times, owing to some unexpected competition, that ates in the United States would come down below the cost of carriage. Why not leave it as low " as the rates ? " Mr. Watts— We might put the word " established " rates. We do not want to be too open. We want to be very guarded about that. I had a long conversa- tion with the general freight agent of the Intercolonial some time ago, and he told me that stuff is carried over the Intercolonial Railway at non-paying rates, and the fact that stuff is carried at non-paying rates should make no difference. As lonj^ as our Government grants subsidies for the encouragement of the commerce of Canada we should be entitled to as low rates as their rivals are giving, no matter whether they are below cost or not, as we give these subsidies because we expect they may have to carry some freight below cost. President Ames— May I suggest the word, " current " rates. Mr. Watts, Toronto— That will meet the difficulty. Some gentleman has said that the railways do not control the steamship rates, and the steamships do not control the railroad rates. I happen to know from a conversation with a General Freight Agent of one of our great Canadian Imes a short time ago that the rates are practically made by a combination of the two interests at all times. The railroads undertake they will do certain things for the steamship companies, and the steam- ships undertake they will do certain things for the railroads, and the rates made by either parties are carried out by the other. I think this resolution is broad enough. Mr. Thom, Montreal — How are you going to arrive at the current rates from the American ports ? Speaking as a steamship man, I have to carry freight across the Atlantic in competition with these ports, I am carrying freight at a loss. If you are going to establish a minimum rate, well and good, but how are you going to pass any resolution that the Government shall say that steamships from Canada shall not charge more than the steamships from American ports ? How are you going to arrive at the rates from the American ports ? Mr. George E. Drummond, Montreal— I think it would be a great pity if the question of securing a fast line from Canada should be strangled by adding to this resolution the amendment moved by Mr. Watts. I am quite sure our Government will atteii to that matter when the time comes. It may be that the railroads, like any manufacturing concern, have to do their business in the best possible way, along the best channels, and that may involve a certain amount going by Ameri- can ports, for one reason or other, but I would not hamper this very desirable reso- lution by tieing a weight on it at the present time. (Hear, hear). Mr. John McKav, Sault Ste. Marie— Would not the law now applicable to all railways receiving Government assistance be applicable to this fast steamship line, that is that the fares or rates, whether p-ssenger or freight, shall be subject to '/overnment regulation, and allow the Government a free hand to conserve the i.erests of Canada as best they can under the circumstances which may arise, \,hich we are unable to grasp at the present time ? Mr. DeWolfe, Halifax— I think Mr. McKay's suggestion is better than the amendment. Mr. Thompson, North Sydney— This is a detail which can be arranged when 91 the contract is made with the fast line. I notice the German contract with the North German Lloyd Steamship Company, that the pubhc and exporters are protected in this respect. The rates are subject to the approval of the Govern- ment, and also there is a provision that when foreigners are oflFermg trade to com- pete with Germany the steamship company shall give the German shipper a preference. There are a lot of regulations that are given in detail, and I think we should not pin the amendment to this resolution. Mr. Campbell — We accepted the proposed amendment from Toronto, not because we desired it specially, but to facilitate the passing of this resolution. As far as we are concerned, we would rather have the resolution as I originally pro- posed it, but rather than have any difficulty we would accept the amendment. Mr. Donnelly. Kingston— We are very apt in a Conference of this kind to think very largely of the individual interests which obtain in the district where we come froiTi, and that is very natural If Sault Ste. Marie is starting railway linos, and 1 hope they will build lots of ihem, they are likely not to want anything of this kind. Halifax is interested to gev this fast steamship line across the Atlantic, and they do not want it particularly. Mr. Thorn, representing a steamship conripany in Montreal, does not want anything of this kind tacked on ; I submit there is a very large majority of the people of Canada interested in this question. President Ames— I think you are verging on the point of suggesting motives. Mr. Donnelly— I beg your pardon, Mr. President, I had no intention at all of doing that, but I want to talk plain facts to this Conference of phin businessmen, and I therefore say if the people of Canada grant subsidies to build steamship lines, and grant subsidies to build railroads, we should have such a lesolution as is intended by this a lendm^nt, and I think this Conference should put itself on record upon this matter, that as a general principle in future where subsidies are granted to build steamship lines or railroads the people of Canada should have through their Govern- ment something to say regarding the rates at which their produce should be earned. Mr. Eaton, Owen Sound-I shall support Mr. Watt's addition to the resolution. I hope it will pass in order to facilitate the business of this country. It is necessary that the people should he protected. It will be the people's money which pays the subsidies, and the Government should look after the interests of the people. Mr. De Wolfe, Halifax— I think instead of passing Mr. Watts' resolution as an amendment, it is of sufficient importance to be a resolution itself, and I would ask that the Conference would treat it as a separate and definite resolution. Mr. H. T. Wickham. Bobcaygeon— I think such a resolution as has been framed by Mr. Watts should not be confined to the trans-Atlantic service, but should be more generally applied to all steamship lines which the Canadian Gov- ernment should subsidize in future. It was agreed that Mr. Watts' amendment should be taken up as a separate resolution. The motion of Mr. Campbell was carried unanimously. President Ames— Mr. Watts' resolution is now before the house. Mr. Watts, Toronto— In moving the adoption 1 would simply say the reference made to the action of the German Governm nt with the North German Lloyd Line shows exactly what other governments are doing, and is the strongest justification for our taking the step we are asked to do today. Mr. Thom, Montreal— Before the motion is put I would be very ^lud to get a little information from the gentleman who made the statement that the Germar lines have some arrangement with the Government as to freight rates ; would that gentleman be good enough to tell me what it was he said on that point, as I did not hear him distinctly ? Mr. Thompson, North Sydney— The company are prohibited from carrying goods cheaper, say from India to England, than from India to German ports, and when German goods and foreign goods are competing the German goods shr.U have tl e preference in despatch when application is made in behalf of each at the same «* 1^ *■ i| yv ! i \:i M 9a time. The details are so numerous I cannot reptut them all here, but it shows that the German Government is alive to the interests of German producers and manu- facturers, and they are thoroughly protected in the contract, which fact goes to sup- port the resolution we have now before us. I think the great difficulty in Canada has >en that through rates are sometimes given from England to Chicago lower than .iiey are from England to Toronto, and that course militates against Canada by Canadian subsidized lines. I think this matter should be looked into thoroughly and preventive clauses put in. Mr. Thom, Montreal— I thank the gentleman for the information, but I am not m a position to give him documentary proof that the German Government does not provide in that way. I have for many years represented the Hamburg American Packet Company, and I know for a fact that we have carried under the German flag, to British ports, goods as cheaply as we have done to German ports ; I know for a fact that we have a service running now from Germany to the far East, and that when we cannot get a cargo to Germany we are only too glad to get one to a British port. The only advantage we have, speaking for the German Corporation, is the small amount received for our mail service. In the matter of freight rates, there is no dictation on the part of the Government as to what rate we shall charge, and where we shall carry it to. The only country I know of that gives a bonus in the question of freight matter would be the Frt.ich Government. I am not aware that the Germans in any way restrict the German lines to rates of freight. Mr. Eaton, Owen Sound— The only fault I find with Mr. Watts' resolution is that It does not go far enough. I am in favor of a commission being appointed from representatives of Great Britain and the Dominion of Canada to regulate freights, but I will not urge that now. I will support Mr. Watts' resolution. I think it is absolutely necessary that we should be protected in some way. Presil .NT Ames— I do not know whether the Conference will allow me to ask a question in regard to this. I am aware if I do so 1 shall perhaps transgress the exact proprieties of the chair, but I have been very much struck with the deliberate mannsr in which you have considered the questions that have come before vou, and of how you seemed to have covered in each question all possible points regarding it. However, I am just a little disturbed on this question as to whether it has been considered in all its s.:pects. Doe^ it not suggest that our rates shall always be practically those of the United States ? Does it not acknowledge that the United States should always dominate our rates ? It is possible that one feature of this combi je may be that rates in the United States will shortly be very high. If our rates are low when theirs are very low, and are very low when theirs are very high, would not a steamship company subsidized by Canada be unjustly discriminated against as an operating compar,^ ? Then, there is the question as to whether the resolution is practical in its application, and also whether it does not always render Canada subservient to what may be called the custom of the United States ? I hope the Conference will pardon my suggestion. (Applause.) Mr. D. R. Wilkie, Toronto— In every other instance we have had an oppor- tunity to discuss these matters we have had the proposals before us in print, we have been able to read them over carefully, and I do not understand the full meaning of that proposal, and I think it would be a wise thing to defer it until later on in the day, and perhaps we could have run off a number of copies so that each delegate could take in the full meaning of the resolution. We do not want to prevent the cotstruction of railways nor the building ol steamships, but I have sufficient con- fidence in those who will administer this steamship line to see we are not taken advantage of. Mr. Geo. E. i rummond, Montreal— I would like to ask the mover if he woulL leave that over till he afternoon. I endorse every word Mr. Wilkie has said. I tell you the men who have put their money into steamships have not a very paying investment on Canadian trade. We do not want to go to work and stop the development of our transportation, and before hastily passing this resolution I think we ought to have time to look it over carefully and see what it is going to mean. 93 As you said, sir, it is going to place the United States in the position to govern the rates 'hat shall prevail in Canada. That is not the position Canadians want to take. Mr. Conlon, Thorold— I have had some experience in this matter with my friend, Capt. Gaskin, and other men interested in lake marine. For perhaps twenty years we have been carrying grain from Port William eastward, and as you are all aware the Rreat bulk .if that trade has gone to Buffalo. We come to Mr. NVatts, or some other grain dealer in Toronto, and we ask him for a cargo, and he will tell us it is a question of rate whether we can send it by way of Buffalo and Boston, or by way of Montreal ; and I find in the great bulk of cases, the grain has gone to Buffalo and Boston. I claim this amendment of Mr. Watts" is the pith of the whole business; it is a question of rate. Now that our Government is to assist in sub- sidizing a steamship service I claim Mr. Watts is right, and I as a vessel man would go still further than Mr. Watts and insist on the minimum rate. It is the only way to build up our Canadian trade and keep our North-West grain in Canadian channels. Mr. Thompson, North Sydney, I did not hear the remarks of the gentleman from Montreal (Mr. Thom), but if he will read the contract between the Gei-.ian Government and the North German Lloyd Company he will find the regulatiur s are .ery stringent, indeed. I do not mean those conditions are in the North Atlantic contract, because the German exports to British North America are very small, but the German exports to Asia are very large, and, in addition to what I said before, the Imperial Chan-ellor has the right to approve of the forn.s of bills of lading. This is part of article 25 of the contract : " The genei»l stipulations of the bill of lading for the transportation of merchandise a.e subject to the approval of the Imperial Chancellor." Article 27 says : " Where German goods or those destined for Germany are competing with foreign goods or those destined for foreign countries, the former shall have the preference in despatch when application is made on behalf of each at the same time." Mr. Geo. E. Drummond— Mr. Thom is absent from the room at the present time. Mr. McFee, Montreal— I feel that this resolution should receive considerable consideration. I think the factor in rates in the export businar s is competitio-i, and I think the competing factor against the railways is the waterways. TheVv.ttrway is a check on high rail rates, and we know there is competition in the different routes, and at the present time the route that is making the minimum rate is by the St. Lawrence, and the St. Lawrence waterways has much to do in the present rate. It is difficult to legislate and control rates that the railways may put into force, especially for this export business ; thsre are so many factors that have to be taken into considv 'ation. Mr. Eaton, Owen Sound— If Mr Watts is asrre'jable I would like to add this clause to the resolution, " And that precautions be taken to prevent the said fast steamship line passing under the con- trol of any railway, and that a -immission lie appointed to manage and control the services and to Ije so composed as to ensure efficient and impartial service, not to be dominated by any railway or political party." Mr. Watts, Toronto — If I might make a suggestion to Mr. Eaton, I think that might be made a separate resolution entirely. Mr. Thompson, North Sydney— That is a detail that might be left with the contract with ths steamship company. It is a pity to absorb the time of the Con- ference on these small details. Mr. Jas. D. Ali \n, Toronto— I had not intended addressing the house upon this question at all, but I feel, in connection with this, that the suggestion that this has probably not been considered in all its bearings is well worth taking into our consideration, and I think, as was suggested, if this matter were deferred so that we can see exactly what it means, we will not be chargeable with having come to any hasty conclusion. Let me say, I think the deliberations of this Conference up 94 to the present time have been very creditable to the delegates engaged in them, and I fur one should feel very sorry if, by a little hastiness in our action, we should do anything that would leave us chargeable with not having fully considered the qiies- tion before us. I would suggest that this matter be left over for further consideration to a later date. Mr. Watts, Toronto — What does Mr. Allan mean by a "later date ? " Mr. Allan — I mean some time this afternoon, and in the meantime copies could be struck off and distributed among the delegates. Mr. Watts, Toronto — This matter has been thoroughly up before the Con- ference in the way of a notice of motion, as the other resolutions that were consid- ered that were not printed in our programme. We have discussed this matter to some extent now, and we have the whole point fresh before our minds. If it is postponed till this afternoon other matters will intervene, and we will have lost track of the point, and will have fo go over the matter again. Mr. D. R. Wilkie, Toronto — I do not think the matter could have been a very important one, or else it would have been thought of in preparing this pro- gramme. If it is a matter of such importance we could very willingly give a half hour to its consideration this afternoon, but I do ..st feel as if we ought to press the matter now, without giving the delegates a full opportunity to fairly understand what the resolution means. Mr. George Robertson, St. John — The time is passing rapidly and there are a great many very important matters to be brought before this Conference. I trust the gentlemen will bring this matter to a vote at once. The Conference can deal with it. It is in the hands, at the present time, of the D immion Government, and they have all the power they require if they wish to carry it out. Mr. Watts — ' do not war to btand in the way of this being discussed, and if it is tLw wish of the memb? that the matter be delayed until this afternoon, I would be Willing to consent to that, but I do not think it is really necessary to delay it. Mr. Perrault, Gaspe— I think we have discussed this enough. There is an uneasiness in the meeting here, and it is evident we are not unanimous, and in a Conference of this sort where a motion is not unanimous and the division will be a close one,Jt is much better to withdraw the question, because you are very likely to be on the wrong side when you have voted, and the best way is to postpone it for the next Conference, which I think will take place in Montreal next year. Mr. Geo. E. Drummond, Montreal — I think it is only fair to say that while this may be a good resolution there are some who will have to vote against it because it has not been placed before this meeting in sufficient time to c()nsider it. The resolution was then put to the Conference, and was declared lost, yi as 42, nays 32. President Ames — It has been suggested that at this stage we decide whether the Conference will sit for the third day. We have a lot to do and it is impossible to get through all that is before us to day. Mr. Ransford, Clinton — I beg to move that the Conference meet to-morrow, for the third day if necessary. The motion was seconded by Mr. Burk, Port Arthur, and carried. a ii. STEAMSHIP SERVICE FROM CANADIAN PORTS Mr. J. D. Allan — This steamship service from Canadian ports is probably the outgrowth of our connection with South Africa. We have had during the past two years an unusual interest in that part of the British Empire through circum- stances over which we have had no control, but I am glad to say that the interest we have had there is one that has heightened the pride of each Canadian in the valor of his countrymen who have gone there and fought, and bled, and died, for the preservation of the Empire. (Hear, hear.) And now that these things are 95 passed end peace has been restored, it is natural that a commercial conference should take some means towards getting what commercial benefits there can be out of such a connection. It has been felt that we have practically no means of reaching South Africa, and therefore it is quite impossible for us to hope, under present circu- istances, for any successful development of trade. It is true that during the transport services mstituted by the British Government we had special transports that enabled us to send Canadian cargoes there, but that will now necessarily cease. In this resolution we do not bind the Government of this country to anything definite, but it is only experimental. We ask them to sub- sidize a steamer from Montreal in the summer, and the Maritime Provinces ports in the winter, at so much per outward voyage, calling at Cape Town, and proceed- ing to ports in Australia. We take the position, in asking for the subsidy at so much per outward voyage, that if it is found there is not trade enough to encourage the traffic, then the Dominion Government is only bound to the extent of the voyage upon which that special steamer may be engaged. Tlie question of the benefit of steamship service has been so fully discussed in this Conference that I need not take up time in further dwelling upon it, but regarding Germany I have been struck with the manner in which she has developed her trade with distant parts of the world. Onlv a few nights ago I was looking up the returns of Ger- man trade in Siam, .• . -^ in one single year, because of superior transport- ation facilities, she sed her trade 30 per cent. The same way from Hamburg and Ausr i.toci there were 29 vessels, in 1901 51 vessels (saihng ships); in 1900. 25 19CI, 45 steamers. Africa has been to us a /ge orders that are being held simply owing to the extraordinary high ocean lates from New York, and I think, if it is at all possible to include a port in New Zealand, a very consider- able business can be worked up. I know at the present time several firms who are shipping to New Zealand, but as I say, orders are now being held on account of the high rates from New York. In point of fact, at the present time it is almost impos- sible to get a combination of rates from here to Liverpool to New Zealand lower than the rates via New York, and if you can do anything to decrease the freight rates to New Zealand, I am sure a very large business in time can be worked up. Mr. J. D. Allan, Toronto — In reply to Mr. Henderson's suggestion it has not been thought desirable to name too closely what ports might be touched, and it was thought that the words, " considered most desirable by the Government of Canada " would cover even New Zealand, although I have my own idea that if you go into New Zealand the subsidy would be so largely increased that it might prove dangerous to the proposition. New Zealand is 1,200 miles from Sydney, and if you can get your cheap rates to Sydney, there may be soi.ie other means to reach New Zealand from there ; but let me say this resolution does not preclude New Zealand if the Government find it necessary. Mr. Hatheway, St. John — Will you permit me to say that during the last several months, I have had letters from people in South Africa, one particularly, and the burden was, " If you Canadians wish to do business with us, you must put on a first class steamship service. The Americans are putting it on, but we would rather do business with you." Mr. McFarlane, Ottawa — 1 think gentlemen, it would be withm the recol- lection of all present who attended the Conference of the Chambers of Commerce of the Empire in 1890, that this subj.»ct was brought up there by the representative from South Africa, who caused documents to be published and circulated amongst the members, drawing attention to the fact that the merchants of Cape Town were scarcely able to do business in competition with merchants residing in Germany and the United States because of the low rates prevailing from those countries to Cape Town, and further stating these lower rates were prevalent on account of the sub- sidies given by the Governments to the steamers plying there. It seems to be a very 97 hard thing indeed that the Mother Country should have been obliged to pay out for the pacitication of the country as much at /f 300,000,000 and when peaceful pursuits are to be resumed that the Mother Country and its Colonies, the Empire as a whole, should not be able to compete with other countries. Mr. Thom, Montreal— Before the cjuestion is put, I would like to say that as a steamship man I am strongly in favor of the resolution ; I have had several enquiries for trade from South Africa, but have not been able to accommodate them. The resolution was carried unanimously. Adjourned at i p.m. to 2.30 p.m. THURSDAY AFTERNOON Th "onference resumed at 2.30 p.m. Mr. J. S. Campbell, Ha'aax— Moved, that hereafter the movers of resolu- tions be allowed fifteen minutes to present the resolution, and each additional speaker five minutes. The motion was seconded by Mr. G. Y. Chown, Kingston, and carried. DUT^ ON LEAD Mr. a. S. Goodeve, Nelson, B.C.— After a consultation with Mr. Munroof the Montreal Board of Trade, who is a lar«;e consumer of the products of lead, and v'ith the consent of the Conference, I would like to submit this resolution in lieu of i.ie one printed. It 16 the same in all essential points. Rttolvid ; That this Conference of the Boards of Trade of the Dominf in of Cwiada favort securing such readjustment of the tariff in respect to imported l^d products " wH encourage the development ot mining, i eUing, and refining 01 lead and ihe establish- ment of various manufactories of lead prcdui:ts within the Dominion. From conversations i have had with various m* nbers -if this Congress, there seems to be an impression in their minds that this question is only of local import- ance, and not of general importance to the Dominion of Canada and our greater Empire. I do not hesitate to say that it is a great mistake, and in orde/ that this Convention may vote intelligently on this question— because I trust the vote will be a unanimous one— I desire to place before you a few facts. In tJ.e first place I would remind you that in the Province of British Columbia ycu have one of the largest Provinces territorially in the Dominion of Canada, extending as it does >oo miles by 400 miles, and extending northward to the 60th degree of latitude. Running all through this vast territory we have the Rocky Mountains, and in those Rocky Mountains are situated the richest deposit of minerals to be found anywhere on the American Continent. You will be surprised to hear that, while we are only in our infancy, the industry of lode mini.ig is the largest in the entire Province, notwithstanding the vast wealth of our fisheries and our timber. You will be surprised to learn, sir, that the returns during the last year were more than equal to the returns of all the the other industries within that Province, and reachaJ the large sum of twenty millions of dollars. While the gold mining in that Province during the last year has increased 36 per cent., and the products of the copper mines have increased 207 per cent., I regret to say that the product of the lead mine has decreased 20 per cent., and it is because of that decreade I am here to ask the assistance of the Board to conserve the interests this vast wea.th to the Dominion of Canada. While I realize that this decrc .^ is tu some extent dtie to the reduction in price of minerals in the world's market. I als- -clieve that it is largely due to the tariff arrangements of our Dominion, and before going further let me make it perfectly clear nere, it is not a political question, that when this tariff 98 '.! i ■ t ft was fcrranged in regard to the lead question it wai at a ume when lead products were looked upon as raw material. Since that time all these ihings have altered, and I am bound to say, upon behalf of the Government, that when we applied to them and explained the situation they passed Irgislation granting us a bounty on the refining of lead to the extent of $5 per ton, and gradually dropping to $1 per ton in the next five years, in no one year to exceed the sum of $ 100,000; but owing to the facts I have just stated, unfortunately for the Province and the Do- minion of Canada, we are not in a position to take the full advantage of that bounty, because the product of the mines at the present time is not sufficient to enable a refinery to treat a sufficient quantity of ore to receive the full amount of the bounty, not, sir, because we have not the product and our mines are not capable of pro- ducing the quantity, on the contrary, let me tell you that the output of the lead silver mine of the County of Kootenay — which, let n'.e tell you, is equal to the entire Province of Nova Scotia in extent — was 31,000 tons, and the value of that product, as computed m the world's market, the price at that time being /17 sterling, amounted to no less than three millions of dollars. The lead products of the mine of Kootenay alone have reached the vast sum of twentv-five million dollars. But I want to say, sir, that at that time the Americans w .re the great purchasers of the lead ores of the Slocan-Kootenay district. Whether it was because of the rapid development of our mine.^l industry there, or whether it was the smelting and mining trust of the United States felt that they could not hold their position and maintain the price they had hitherto maintained in regard to their lead products, I am unable tr say, but at any rate, since that date they have decided to do what we may call " the freeze-out game." They have absolutely refused, not only to come into our markets and purchase our ore, but have refused to take or treat our ore in the American market, with the result that many of our largest producing mines in that district are shut 'lown. We have in Koot- enay one of the largest producing mines. When I day is, understand it actually produced it, I am not talking theory, and every sl.tternent I shall make will be based on the actual figures. I say we have in tne Kootenay district one mine that has proved its capability, and has actually produced more lead per annum than any mine on the American continent, with one exception, notwithstanding that it is only some four or five years since we entered into this industry at all, and yet, sirs, that mine is closed down to-day. How does this work out ? 1 will try to explain it briefly and lucidly. The Canadian tariff on lead in ore is free. The United States tariff on lead in ore is i^ cents per pound, amounting to no less than $30 per ton; pig lead and scrap lead, Canadian duty 15 [>er cent., less ^ differential, which makes it only 10 per cent. — and bear in mind our competitors in this particular industry are Great Britain and Australia as well as the United States. Taking the preferential duty our duty is only 10 per cent., which amounts to $5 per ton, while the United States duty against Canadian lead is 2^ cents per pound, or $42.50 per ton, eight times the duty we have against them. Pipe and shot lead is 35 per cent., less ^, which is $16.33 P^^^ to°i while the American duty against lead is no less than $50 per ton. The duty on white lead and red lead is 5 per cent, in Canada, which figures out $2.55 per ton ; while the duty upon white or red lead in the United States is $57.50 per ton, in other words, we are absolutely prohibited from entering the markets of the United States. What is the result of that ? We find we are compelled to go on the open markets of the world and market the lead products of our mines against Great Britain, Australia, and all the other lead producers of the world. The great consumption of lead is in f^ina and Japan and the other oriental countries. The present market y of lead in London is /ii 7s. 6d. which figures out $13 14 per ton, o ^2.46 per hundred pounds. That means we are only enabled to pay our miners in the Slocan country $1.46 per hundred pounds for ore lead, but at the same time the American mines are enabled to pay the Cordelaine miner $3.50 per hundred pounds for his lead at the smelter. By reason of the tariff the American miners have the American market to them- selves, and they are *^hus enabled to so arrange the price of this article that they car "lay the amount I have mentioned to their American miners, and they are thus 99 • able to ship the surplus lead product to the markets of the world, paying a lesser price for it. Sir, we have not had up to the present time refineries, but 1 hope before this Convention adjourn' I will be able tr produc i telegram showing that, for the first time in the history of the Domini' n of C nada, we have * refinery established there (applause), and that we will be m a ■ ^iition not only to mine our lead ores, not only to i^melt our own lead ores, but lo refine them. \Vhat we want in addition to refining those ores is that we can complete the manufacture ; in othr words, instead of doing as we have been, we will manufacture our raw mater a instead of sending it to the South of us to be manufactured by our neighbors. All we ask is that the working men of the Dominion of Canada shall reap the full bene- fit of the deposit Nature has placed within our power. (Applause). The consumption of lead in the Dominion of Canada at the present time is only about 13,000 tons per annum. Thre-: or four thousand tuns of that is used in the manufacture of shot, lead pipe and sheet lead, and various things of that kind. The balance of the product of the consumption of lead in Canada is, aftei being passed through the corroded process, made into material such as paint. I want to point out that the tariff under peculiar conditions existin, at present, ' * only does not protect Canadian industries, but it offers an a...ual bonus Americans at the south of us to manufacture the lead for us. We find that wi. the duty on paint l^ad is 15 per cent., that if it is subjected to the procets of cor. ^• sion and is turned into dry lead wt white lead, it is then admitted in«o the ncminion of Canada for 5 per cent. ; on the raw material they charge 15 per cent.. «nd when manufactured only 5 per cent, duty, which is placing aprer. mon Ihei. P"facture of that lead outside the country. (Hear, hear). All we as. ^ that the ) ominion Government shall be urged to so adju that tariff that we si.u.j oe enablei to <\o the manufacturing of that lead within our own Dominion. I am just touching on the fringe of this great question. I am aware that one of the reasons why the Govern- • ment hesitate to deal with this matter is that it may possibly raise the price to ihe consumer in Canada. I believe it will not necessarily raise the price, and I will give you my reasons. In the first place, we find the price of lead in oil in Montreal and the price of lead in oil in New York are practically the same, about J5.50 p-r hundred pounds. Of course the markets fluctuate, and for that reason at the present time we are supplying paint lead to the purchasers at Montreal at $2.85 per hundred pounds, which is below the British price of lead plus the freight and duty, and if we had this home market to ourselves of seven or eight thousand tons per annum we would still be in a position, with an increase of duty, to sell at that price — suppose the duty was increased from 15 to 25 per cent., 10 per c»'it. on $2.85 per hundred would bring the anr. ant to $3.10. The price upon lead in the New York market to-day is about $4.10. I say if we ca.) sell paint lead at $3.10 with the increased duty we would probably be in a position to supply consumers at the same price they are paying at the present time, because the cost of the raw material always regulates the price of the manufactured article ; for that reason I say it will not necessarily raise the price. But, sir, in order that there may be no loophoie left in regard to this, if it did increase the price with the consumer a small amount I venture to say that that will be far more than offset by the advantage to the Don ...jn as a whole. Let me tell you we are not local in this question, or in the development of that Province. By way of illustration, let me say that in the year 1900 alone we placed in the City of Rossland no less than $600,000 of machinery, and the greater part of that machinery was Canadian made, largely from the Pro- vinces of Quebec and Ontario. Every part of this Dominion reaps a "lare from the development of that Province. I see my time is up, but I will just say this, that even if you paid more bear in mind that we are a broad people in Canada and I think we are particularly broad in Bntish Columbia ; we pay per capita in the Province of British Columbia three times more than all the rest of Canada together for Dominion Revenue ; we pay that because of the increased cost of our goods in bringing them from Eastern Canada ; for instance, on canned goods, on which the miner is largely fed, the duty is ijc. per pound, amounting to 100 per cent, on the California product, but we are glad and wilUng to pay that if it helps the whole Dominion. All we ask is a fair and equitable return. I shall not weary you with lOO m further details, you can see how very important and vast this question is ; you can see that every one of you are interested in it, and I trust the vote will be absolutely unanimous. Mr. Hatheway, St. John — For information will the gentleman kindly state if the factory intend to make both sheet le^d and pig lead. Mr. Goodeve, Nelson, B.C. — When the smelter gets an order he first gets out the bullion ; the next process is the refining, which produces various things leaving pig or bar lead. Mr. Hatheway, St. John — Do you intend to make sheet lead ? Mr. Munro, Montreal — Everything of that kind we intend to have introduced into Canada. I do not think this Conference will divide on the question before us. There is a very striking anomaly existing in connection wiih the lead production of Canada, that is, that all the lead consumed in Canada is imported into Canada, and the lead produced in Canada is shipped out. We pay duty at one end on the lead coming in, and the lead that goes out is subject to a duty at the other side. That itself makes a strong prima facie case for this motion. My friend has made out a perfectly clear case that the tariff wants adjusting. The tariff was framed under entirely different conditions. Instead of asking for any specific duty, in order to save the time of this Conference, we have framed this general resolution. Mr. Hatheway — I would like to say that tea lead is coming into different parts of New Brunswick free, and is used in very large quantities. I do not know very much about this question, but this resolution we have printed before us pro- vides that the duty shall be increased, and I understand the resolution moved by Mr. Goodeve asks that the duty be readjusted. I would like to know more about the matter. I know there are a great many people in the Maritime Provinces who use pig lead for their shipping business, and this is a question that will, to a large extent, interest many more cities than at present we may think of. If the duty on' sheet lead or tea lead, which is now free, is to be increased, we would like to know whether that is going to benefit a large number of people in Canada. I would like to hear from some of the gentlemen in Toronto, who are putting up large quan- tities of lead in packages, and also from any gentleman in Halifax who is interested in the shipping business. Mr. Munro, Montreal — May I reply to Mr. Hatheway when I say that the probability is, in regard to sheet lead, that the duty will be reduced. We cannot say definitely what the Government may see fit to do. The duty on pipe and shot is high and the presumption is that the Government will ask that that duty be lowered, and they will equalize by raising the duty on others. Tea lead is rather outside of this. I cannot say what the Government will do. Mr. Hatheway, St. John — There are hundreds of tons of tea lead imported from England. Mr. Munro, Montreal — It is quite out of the question what the Government may do, but what I want to make plain is that the whole lead tariff needs readjustment. Mr. McFarlane, Ottawa — I have a very vivid recollection of the condition of the lead industry in British Columbia when I visited the Kootenay region in 1899. What Mr. Goodeve has said only makes the case stronger. At that time, having had something to do with the handling of lead in former years, I made some enquiry as regards the ores that were produced in such districts as Slocan and others. I visited some of the mines in Slocan and found them producing not so much ore ready for shipment from the mine direct, but ore that had been treated in their establishments. It had been taken from these mines situated away up in the mountains, brought down to the lake, sculled over the lake and delivered to the railway stations at or near the Border, and taken thence to the United States. I made a calculation at that time — I have not got the figures with me — in order to ascertain now much relatively the smelters of the United States obtained and the Canadian miners obtained and the total value that resulted from the treatment of those ores, and my information then obtained was to the effect that the sme - lOI in the United States had by far the lion's share of the profit, that for the investor in British Columbia and the miners there, very little remained, and in a great many of the mines there was no profit. The impression that I gained at that time was that there was no industry in the Dominion of Canada that required encour- agement more than that of the lead smelting in British Columbia. (Hear, hear.) I am very glad indeed to support the resolution proposed by Mr. Goodeve. The resolution was carried unanimously. DEFENCE. Mr. McFee, Montreal — I approach the subject of defence with considerable hesit incy. It is a subject that probably we are not all agreed on, but if I am to judge from the discussions we haye had yesterday and to-day I would draw one conclusion, i.e., that we are pretty well united on the main question, namely, the development and consolidation of the Empire to which we belong. (Hear, hear). The subjects which we have discussed emphasized the idea in my mind of centrali- zation. We discussed preferential trade, state ca^>les, postage, our tariff as affect- ing imports into foreign countries, subsidies — mese are all bearing on the one thought of centralization, and in that thought is included the word consolidation. To bring into effect these resolutions which we have passed, would mean the greater consolidation of this Empire. It was stated here that probably the British Empire was not the unit that we would like it to be, but I can say this, that we are all united in the thought that in Great Britain we have the embodiment of freedom and justice, (applause). I believe it is because of the freedom that we enjoy as British subjects and the justice that we receive as British subjects that we are the loyal subjects that we are to-day. The Empire to which we belong is in keeping with the age in which we live — it is a large Empire. I think Mr. Chamber- lain, in his speech within a few days, made the statement that thiswas not an age of small States, but it is an age of the union of the smaller States in a large State, and it is in that attitude that we approach this question as Canadians. We are an important part of the British Empire. If the British Empire contains 13^ millions of square miles, we as Canadians are proud to say that 3^ millions of square miles are within the bounds of Canada, and in comparison with us the United States, one of the greatest countries in the world, as far as extent is con- cerned, as well as in other respects, has only 3^ million square miles, the same as we have in Canada. The population of the Empire, too, is probably the largest known in history, namely four hundred millions. To rule an Empire such as this requires the wisest Government possible, and we have it in the rule of the British Empire. The policy of Great Britain in regard to all her possessions is self-govern- ment, and in this self-government each of the possessions, I am glad to say, relies on its own defence as far as local requirements are concerned. This is illustrated in the recent war in South Africa. England directed her whole strength to the war in South Africa without worrying herself about her other possessions. We heard nothing of India or the West Indies or Canada or Australia during this war. Each of these possessions provided for its own defence. In India we have native troops with British officers, in Egypt we have the Egyptian soldier with the British officer, and I may add here that in the Soudan, I suppose, no soldier contributed more to the success of the expedition there than the Egyptian soldier. If we go down to the West Indies we find there the natives seeing to the defence of the West Indies. Australia and Canada also possess the means of self-defence. It is not a new principle of defence that I am discussing, as far as that side of the question is concerned, all the Colonies are doing something towards the defence of the Empire. This resolu- tion carries us a little beyond this ; it implies more than local defence, it implies more than the military organizations, it implies more than police patrol of the local waters, it implies a contribution to the cost of the general defence of the Empire. I understand from that that we are asking you to support the cost of the general defence of the Empire, and I would understand from that that we wish this contri- bution to carry out the thought I referred to — centralization. I believe \v; .; -con- tribute to the general defence of the Empire by centralizing the control of the I i" A: I a i I J* I' ii 1 02 defence of this Empire. I believe it is in the interests of this country that we should contribute to the general defence of this great Empire. Are we a wealthy, possession ? I think we are all agreed about that, that we are ; from speeches that have been made to-day and yesterday the only inference that can be drawn is that we consider we are probably a most important part of the British Empire. In our resources of forest, fisheries, minerals and agricultural lands we are wealthy. It may be said that this country is in no danger of any trouble with any other country. The same argument might be used that the United Kingdom is in no danger of trouble with France, Germany or Russia. I consider that we have no more reason to say we have a guarantee of peace in Canada than Great Britain has a guarantee from trouble with other countries. I think, then, it is our duty to leal with this question in order that this country may be as secure as possible from any attack or any possible dispute with any deighbor we may have. I can see that the greater wealth we have the greater possibility there might be of dispute with anyone who is envying us the wealth we enjoy in this country. We are not contributing one dollar directly to the defence of our country by the British navy, and Great Britain and Ireland would have the right to say to us in Canada: " What are you contributing towards the defence of the Empire ? " I think we would be ashamed to say that we are not contributing one dollar for that purpose. The British navy costs the British Exchequer fourteen shillings per capita per annum ; we enjoy every guarantee that that navy can give to its sub- jects, our trade is protected by the British navy, and as we look forward to an immense extension of our foreign trade in the near future, the greater will be the requirements of the navy to protect this immense extension of trade. It seems to me that we are a sufficiently wealthy country to do our share towards the defence of this great Empire. A liberal contributioii of 1 1 per capita would not worry the citizens of this Dominion of ours, and I believe if we contributed five or six million dollars per annum we would be contributing thereby only one-fifth of what every British citizen is contributing, or one-fifth of what every American citizen is contributing towards the defence of his country. I am sure we in Canada are prepared to do our share as citizens in contributing to the defence of our common Country. I therefore beg to move : Retolved : That in the opinion of this Conference it is the duty of this Dominion, as an im- portant division of the Empire, to share in the cost of the general defence of said Empire, and therefore that an annual appropriation should be provided in the Dominion Budget for this purpose, to be expended as the Dominion Government may direct. (Applause). (Subsequently Mr. McFee substituted the the word " participate " for the word " share " and eliminated the word " general " before the word " defence.") Mr. MuNRO, Montreal— I have been asked to second the resolution now before the Conference. There are some fourteen resolutions on the subject l)efore the Conference, but I second the Montreal resolution as calculated to provoke the lead discussion, it avoids details and sets before us a general principle, and a suggestion as to how that principle may be applied. We said a great deal yesterday of the greatness of our country. We have done so without a word of exaggeration. We have everyone of us been so little .iccustomed to contemplate its excellence that we have not arrived at the point when exaggeration has become habitual. In this regard we have not followed the very decided lead of our neighbors to the south, who have a less extensive and less valuable heritage, but who, nevertheless, try to believe that they own creation. We have, on the contrary, had far too modest ideas of our heri- tage, and even with the light of these discussions falling on it, our imagin- ings have not reached the reasonable possibilities of Canada. And why such possibilities ? Is it because the world has awakened to a more accurate knowledge of our climate ? Is it because of a more worthy realization of our immense area ? Is it because of the priceless value of our Yukon gold — our Kootcnay metals, more precious even than gold mines — our limitless forests which for centuries to come will furnish the world lumber— our wheat belts that yield the finest wheat grown on the 103 be the all, our globe — or the tremendous water powers that stamp us as an essentially industrial country? Is it these alone? Not so. It is the great and glorious fact that all tliese we possess under the protecting wing and fostering care of the greatest Empire that had been — an Empire whose beneficent rule will the glory of this world while time endures. If we begin to estimate resources of Canada we must first place on the list, and over-shadowing the fact of our British Protectorate. In all our history as a British Colony coasts have been patrolled by the British fleet. We find written on all our boundaries, " We hold thee safe," and we rejoice, we rest in the comfort which this knowledge brings. But is it fitting that the Dominion of Canada should con- tinue to accept the needed protection of Great Britain and yet refuse to contribute to the defence or the cost of maintaining it ? Is it self-respecting ? is it business- like ? is it consistent with the commercial policy set before us yesterday ? is it creditable, in view of the fact that Australia contributes yearly to the support of the British Navy, and has done so for nearly twenty years ? It has been truly said that without any written obligation Canada has recently contributed to the defence of the Empire in men and money, and we are all proud that she has done so ; but I contend that this is not to be regarded as simply an act of grace. This was the outcome of a strong feeling in the country that it was a right and a reasonable thing to do. The repeated offers of help by Canada were the outcome of strong patriotic sentiment that realized something of what Great Britain has done for us. This feeling found vent so unmistakably that it evidences to us the sense of fairness which possesses our people to do our duty toward the Mother Country. In some of the resolutions you are asked to say that in devoting her resources to the development of her national wealth and population, Canada is doing all that the present situation demands for the prestige of the Empire. I do not believe the gentlemen tendering these resolutions will themselves assert them as their reply on this question. I do not believe that if for example a proposal were made to vote money for the improvement of our Canadian defences any gentleman present would oppose it. The teaching of these resolutions is certainly not Imperial, for if every portion of the Empire acted in this way where would be the prestige ? Do you look forward to the great development of our commerce indicated yesterday ? Do you look forward to seeing Great Britain's food supply shipped out from our shores, and do you expect that while Great Britain pays $6 per capita and United States I5 per capita, Canada's contribution shall continue to be forty to fifty cents. I don't believe the commercial voice of Canada will say anything of the kind. As the resolution from Barrie so well expresses it, the burden is assumed for the safety of the whole. We enjoy that security, we feel strong in its enjoyment, strong in regard to the complications that exist to-day. Complications will ever arise and fall to be dealt with ; boundary complications, fishery complications, complications of lake defence and navigation. We are strong I say in the face of all these from the knowledge that the power which belongs to us is many times greater than any power that can come against us. Reference is made in some of the resolutions to the defence of our coasts as if that embraced the whole question. The other view more practical to us is the defence of our commerce and of our ship- ping. The external commerce of the Dominion, I mean her combined exports and imports for the year 1901, exceeds 400 millions of dollars and is rapidly expanding. We teel no concern as to its security, for it is protected every day and has ever been on the seas of the world. Britain's protection forms an insurance which costs money not only in times of emergency but every day, and no merchant refuses to pay for insurance on his merchandise. We do not hesitate in our efforts to extend our relations with Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, West Indies and British possessions everywhere, because our commerce is protected by the power of Great Britain. That power we now seek should belong to Greater Britain, that power, still a united power, should be maintained by every continent and every i.sland over which our flag waves. (Applause). Mr. Dumble, Peterboro— It has been agreed between the gentlemen repre- senting Stratford and the gentlemen representing the Boards of Trade in Lower I04 I Canada that the Peterbo.v) resolution shall express their views on this question, and therefore I will take the liberty of moving as an amendment the Peterboro Resolution. I suppose we could : :>-ak till to-morrow morning in general eulogy of the conditions of Canada and her relationship to the Empire, and all we might say might be true, but the issue that is before us this afternoon is a direct issue between voluntary action and statutory compulsion. When two or three years ago trouble arose in Africa and a saucy message went from Germany to Africa, there was danger of complications. Then Britain's children got up beside the old Mother and banng their arms declared to the world that they who laid a hand on Britain would contend not only with her. but with her children. I am proud of the position taken by the children of Britain, I am proud of the Canadians, I am proud of the Canadian settlement and I am proud of the Canadian prowess manifested in South Africa. Could any other result be expected ? Sixty years ofbenefictnt ruling from Downing Street, sixty years of the rule of our great Queen, cemented to the common heart of the Empire the hearts of all those outlying sections and made us one people in blood, in history, in religion, and in a common effort to upraise humanity. We are one people in this Dominion of ours from Atlantic to Pacific, and there is one co.nmon feeling in every heart, though we may perhaps show it in different manifest itions. Sir, I say that what we did in the hour of England's trial was a natural action, an action resulting from natural sympathy, an action than which any other would be unnatural, and what we did then we can do again, and what we did then, if necessity comes, we will do again, and will do it according to the exigency of the hour and according to our might ; but, sir, if you introduce anything but the strongest of all bonds, the bond of common sympathy, common love, and a common heart, your very effort will break asunder the bonds which at present bind us together. I remember one of old who, when he laid his head in the lap of Delilah was her slave, but when they bound him with ropes he broke them ascnder. So it will be in this matter if we introduce anything like coercion. The onl^ bond which it is safe to rely on is the natural bond of affection which will alone ba sufficient in the hour of trial. (Applause). I completely object to substituting for my stronger bond a bond created by statute ; it means a revolution, a comple e change in our relationship, it means something that we may perhaps attain to in the process of vime by natural development, but it means that which we are not prepared for at the present time. I say in the language of one respected in England, we will make the gre"*er pro- gress by going slow, we must not attempt to force things. Raismg money in Canada for the war chest of Britain means taxation without representation, and I heard of a little trouble made once in Boston Harbor about something of that kind. (Hear, hear). Mr. H. J. WiCKHAM, Bobcaygeon — I rise to a point of order. I think the speaker is entirely beside the mark. The Montreal Board of Trade says that the fund here is to be under the control of the Dominion Government. (Hear, hear). There is no ground for the present speaker taking the attitude that we are to be bound by statute. Mr. Dumble, Peterboro — The trouble is the Dominion Government does not control the war chest of Great Britain. Since 1800 Canada has stoo . up for that part of the Empire called Canada and she will do it still, and would be always ready to do so, but I do object to a vote of Canadian money for the common war chest of Great Britain to be used under the military authorities of Britain irrespec- tive of Canada. Mr. D. R. Wilkie, Toronto — I rise to a point of order. The gentleman is not speaking to the point at all. Nobody proposed that. I vas called to order yesterday for introducing the question of defence in the matter of trade. Mr. Dumble, Peterboro — The resolution is for a contribution for Imperial purposes and Imperial defence irrespective of Canada. Fkesidknt Ames — On the question of order, gentlemen, I do not wish to interpret it and analyze it too closely. I believe we will reach our results in the best way by giving a very wide license to the speakers. 105 iv/B. DuMBLB, "Peterboro — With regard to our own country, we maintain a militia in good form. I have no objection to perfecting that militia organization, I have no objection to fortifying the ports of Halifax o» Vancouver, if necessary, I have no objection to making our own army strong as part of the militar- system of Canada, but I do object to any contribution of Canadian money fo outside general purposes of the Empire that are not connected immediately anu Jirectly with our own Colony. I think we want to be vjry careful, we want to be dis- passionate in considering this matter, we do not want to allow sentiment to carry us away ; but we want to remember that this resolution introduces a complete departure fro n all tradition and from all political history of ?his country, »«»<*>» involves much more than the resolution, it involves the reconstitution of the relationship between Canada and the Mother Country, and I think the suggestion of Lord Salisbury to go slow, to wait for natural development and natural evolu- tion to bring about results, is the only prop*"- action. There is not the slightest danger that Canada will be lacking in the performance of her full duty. Just so long as the relationship between Canada and Britain is happy as it has been in the last sixty years especially, as I am sure it will be under the enlightenment of the present age, just so long there v ill be no necessity for such a resolution as is submitted here. Leave it tc natural action at the proper time to n eet the emer- gency, and you will do better for our people and for our country than if you bind us with bonds of iron. (Applause.) I beg to move the amendment : Rtmlved : That Canada having expended in the conitmction of tranacontlnent^ ™''!5''* ""^ sums of money, these nulways l>eing available for milllary purposes of the Kmpire. ar.d having in the past done her part in aelf-defence. and having in the South Afncan war manifested her loyalty by the contribution of men and money, it may be assumed tliat she can be re'ied upon by tb«< Mother Country, not only to maintain an effective mili- tary force at home for self-defence, but that she w 11 make common cause with the Mother Country in time of need ; and t is not now necessary, in vtew of her undevil- oped condition, to pledge herself to exr er of expense it appears to me there can be no sug- gestion made where Canaaa can defend herself at so moderate a cost as by entering into some scheme of this kind, where she can contribute having regard to her popu- lation and trade and resources generally, as compared with the other parts of the Empire. The Hon. Mr. Chamberlain at one of these Conferences referred to a very significant fact which we should not lose sight of at this time, I think he said that for the last fifty years, every important war in which Britain had been engaged had been a war undertaken in defence, not of the Island of Britain, but in defence of the Colonies and possessions and dependencies of the British Empire (hear, hear), and whether he said it in those words or not, gentlemen of this Conference looking 107 back know that this is ihe fact, and this seems to me to be an oppc'tune time, when we are going to make proposals to Great Britain, to consider 'bis question. Some gentleman said we should wait for natural development. I admit that, but I claim that that natural development has receded this meeting, and that we have arrived at that time when in the fitness of things we should propor-e it, and no more opportune time will ever arise. Thera is more than this. The statesmen ot Great Britain have pointed out from time to time that Canada offers no equivalent for the concessions she desires, no quid pro quo for what she aSKs and we know, whatever has been said here this afternoon to the contrary, that Britain is looking in :he direction of the ..olonies doing som.ethi.ie along this line. We need nol. have a hard and fast rule, but the intima- tion that came to Canada was that they desired that this Conference should discuss not only the question of closer relations in ihe matter of trade, but that the question of Imperial defence should also be one of the subjects which should recewe discus- sion and consideration. I do hope this Conference will in its wisdom see fit to pas this resolution. u. . ^f ,u:„ Mr. H. WicKHAM, Bobcaygeon— I am afraid sere of the members ot this Conference have been working at cross purposes, because uom the remarks already fallen from the mover and the seconder of the resolution, I am qui»e clear that those gentlemen, at all events, cannot have givei this question the consideration they should have done before speaking on it. The question of local defence M? been brought forward, but I wish to point out that the British Empire is entirely different from any other Empire in that it is essentially a maritime Empire, and unless the British Empire maintains the command of the seas, unless, the British navy is tree, and we are free to cross the sea at any point, the whole Empire is m danger, and Canada, as a matter of business, has imports and exports at nsk from war on the sea every year to the extent of something in the neighborhood of f 200,000,000. l think that this is an interest which it behooves Canadians to look to, but the main point upon which I think there is likely to be some misunderstanding is ttiis, as to the scope and intention of the resolution which is moved by the Montreal Board of Trade. 1 hold, sir, and I wish to say to the gentknien here to-day that in no way can self-governing Colonies contribute sc well to the general defence of the Empire 93 by re-organizing and extending their own local organizations or their own local systems, under the comple.-^ control of their own Government, that they shall remain under the compi? .control of their own Government. I want to say just a few words to desdje what I mean. 1 he British Navy has to be m?nned, and it takes men to man it. She now maintains a force of 120.000 regulars in the British Navy, she has a reserve force of 25 to 27,000 men who are merchant seamen all over the world. It is the opinion of all naval experts that that reserve force must be increased to something like 90,000 or 100,000 men. In the case of the war of South Africa, we find we have supple- mented the British Army by sending out our contingent to South Africa entirely voluntarily, and our men had been trained and were fit to go into the field and take their p./sitions alongside the British soldier, with the consent and entire approva of the Canadian people. All that is proposed by the resolution of the Montreal Board of Trade is this, that Canada shall go on and improve her organization, that she should provide a sum of money for that purpose, and that it should bs expended entirely under the control of the Dominion Government, and therefore I say that those gentlemen who took the position that this was a contribution to the Imperial Exchequer, or that this was even a joint maintenance of an Imperial force, were entirely outside the mark. To-day we have 70,000 sea-faring population in Canada, the finest reserve of men that could possibly be drawn upon. There has b'en a proposition before the Dominion Government for some time by which the present land organization and the militia of Canada shall be extended so as to include a naval as well as a land militia. That naval militia shall be formed by the Dominion Government, paid for by the Dominion Government, but shall be ready if Great Britain shall be attacked by sea and if Canadian commerce should be attacked by sea, to take their place along- side the Royal Navy reserve, as provided in an act for that purpose passed by the m\ I i M io8 \1 I Imperial Government in 1865, allowing such organizations, pointing out how thejr may be handled and incorporated and used side by side with the Royal Naval Reserve, but not without the approval from time to time of the self-governing Colonies interested. We are not surrendering one jot of the control which we have over our own finances for our own defence, but we are placing ourselves in a position, when wanted, to join with and defend the whole Empire, and we cannot do that without some proposition which will cost money. You can become a tolerably good shot with a rifle on shore with a small amount of training, but it takes three or four or five years to turn out a first-class seaman gunner. I mean to say the amount of training wliich the Royal Naval Reserve have to-day, and which I propose the Canadian seamen should undergo, is the very least possible amount which would make those men efficient at the time they are wanted, because you cannot turn out a gunner at the same time that you can a land soldier. There is one other point which I specially want to bring before your attention, and that is that this would be the greatest boon to our seamen and our own fishermen durhig the winter months. It would be a great boon to those men to be able to train and to get the pay, because it is not fair to ask them to train and to make themselves effective without pay. Mr. D. Masson, La Chambre de Commerce, Montreal — As you are aware, the Premier of Great Britain, one of the most eminent statesmen of the Empire, the Hon. Lord Salisbury, has sounded a note of warning, and has declared the time has not yet come to safely legislate against the difficulties arising out of the burdens of finance as well as of defence, and that haste would rather forecl> se the results which he thinks are in store, whilst by being patient and careful he considers the desired relations with the Colonies would in time unavoidably follow, but he conse- quently thinks that there is no danger for the time being more serious than an attempt to force the various parts of the Empire into an arrangement for which they are not ready, and which can only produce a reaction. Further, Hon. Mr. Barton and Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier are evidently of the same opinion. Both stated that the only question that could possibly be discussed at the coming Con- ference was the question of commercial trade relations, as they considered a hard and fast military agreement between Great Britain and the Colonies quite inadvis- able. Having considered these opinions you will acL nowledge there is a serious difficulty threatening Great Britain in an attempt to diaw the Colonies into the vortex of European militarism. Besides the formal declarations of the Honorable Secretary of the Colonies, although favoring a much closer union, readily admits it would not have its raison d'etre without an expressed desire from the Colonies. And also that the prop sed Colonial Conference would be a business conference in jrder to discuss commercial relations within the Empire. As representatives of the commercial interests of the Dominion of Canada, is it not our duty to favor closer commercial relations with England and the Colonies, inas- much as they can serve the interests of Canada, without altering our present satisfactory constitution, thus strengthening the bonds that unite the Empire, in a moral as in a material point of view ? And should we not congratulate our- selves that the Honorable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, our Premier, has thought well of accepting for said Colonial Conference a mandate where prudence and tact will be of the highest importance and invaluable. Still, should we not exert ourselves more and more to impress on his mind tha fact that sentiments of affection and of mutual feelings generally, in ail occasions most commendable, should, in such an emergency, be of secondary importance an 1 subservient to our national interests. Therefore I am of opinion that this Congress, relying on former repeated declara- tions of our Premier, should express its full confidence in our distinguished dele- gate, as there can be no doubt in the safeguard of Canada's interests, more so in the enhancement of its credit, if the commercial relations are discussed only from a business point of view. But this Congress might, perhaps, also take the liberty to suggest to our Premier that, whilst carrying our sentiments of affection and good- will to Great Britain, whose army and navy's most valuable influence may have shielded effectively that Canada of ours, he should try to favorably impress his colleagues of the d- voted loyalty of the Canadians. Reminding her of the heroism I09 of our ancestors, and without overlooking the American invasion of 1775, recall more particularly the agitated period of 1812, when bravery and energy kept to England the Sreatest and most valuable jewel of the British Crown. Referring also, amongst hun- reds of glorious and illustrious exploits to those achieved, not only in Lower Canada by a de Salaberry who, with his 300 men so gallantly renewed the Thermopylae feat at the battle of Chateauguay, but also in Upper Canada by a Brock, another hero, who, at the extra session of the Legislature in July, i8ia. rang out these clear and earner words, " We are engaged in an awful and eventful contest. By unanimity and despatch in our councils, and vigor in our operations, we may teach the enemy this lesson, that a country defended by freemen enthusiastically devoted to the cause of their King and constitution, can never be conquered," words which have been so efficacious that the consequences have proved equal to the despatch and bravery of those who thus have helped to save Canada to England. " Whilst later in 1867 and 1870 face to face with an attack undoubtedly intended only against England, Canada anew faithfully performed its duty towards the Crown, in checking with its own men and money, the Fenian raiders ; and in 1885 in a very similar manner, had the occasion to quell the North-west Rebellion. However if our honorable delegate wishes to convince his colleagues of Canada's loyalty and devotedness to the British Crown, I am led to believe that he must unavoidably bring more businesslike arguments. Why not then, as a further proof, let theni know how Canada before it had any need thereof and notwithstanding its limited means and snail population, has constructed the Intercolonial and the Canadian Pacific Railways, as well as canals connecting its inland sea? with the ocean, thus offering a safe and direct military route, with coaling and revictualing stations across the continent, as well as uninterrupted means of transport around the world on British possessions ? Whereas the construction of the Esquimalt fortifications, our postal system, our cable, wire and wireless communications have burdened our budget, and their maintenance will still absorb a large proportion of ou* resources. Has not Canada done its share, and would it be right to furthei irden our budget ? Whilst in devoting our resources to the development of our inrimense natural wealth and a more rapid increase in the population, we would certainly do all that the present situation demands for the prestige and strength of the Empire. Allow me, in asking your vluable aid to support the amendment, to quote anew the words of General Browk, which I consider most appropriate to the circuin- stances : " We are engaged in an eventful contest. By unanimity and despatch in our councils we may teach this lesson, that a country defended by freemen enthu- siastically devoted to their King and constitution can never be conquered . . . in its constitutional rights." Are we not, all of us, loyal and devoted to our King and constitution ? Let us pray God the Almighty to allow our gifted delegate, through prudence and foresight, to maintain the statu quo of our constitution. Then we may rest assured that not only Canadian interests will be safeguarded, but also that internal commercial relations with England and with its Colonies will bring closer the ties of interest, without in any way loosening the ties of senti- ment or those of sympathy. Why should we not, then, formulate the general problem which should be solved at the Colonial Conference, so as to give it a practical character by asking our delegate : To endeavor to attain the unity in the Empire for the commercial and industrial development and prosperity of its several portions. Thus the Honorable Sir Wilfrid Laurier will undoubtedly feel duty bouiid, whilst safeguarding the interests of Canada, to co-operate in the fraternal and in- dispensable work of keeping British trade in British hands. I will conclude, gentle- men, in asking the most representative Congress ever assembled in the commercial interest of the Dominion of Canada, whilst wishing God speed and success to our sympathetic delegate, to formally acknowledge that the loyalty of Canadian British subjects is a sure warrant, that without coercion and written law (sans contrainte et sans lot ecrite) Canadians of all creeds and nationalities will, in future as in the past ' -ep apace with the requirements of the occasion, and that the unanimous desire of this assembly is, what it should consider its motto, " Canada First." I I : fU i no If i u I 4»- Mr. VV F. Cockshutt, Brantford— I am pleased that this Congress has had the courage to discuss this question which is now before us. There was a disposition on the part of some of our teliow citizens to mark this of! the programme, but I take it, Mr. President, that there is no subject discussed by this Conference that will mould public opinion so much as thediscussion that we are engaged in this afternoon. It is a fair sui'ject for discussion, and the country expects it to bis discussed, and I must say, Although not agreeing with our French Canadian fellow citizens in all respects, I must congratulate them upon the courage that has led them to put so many reso- lutions on the programme dealing with this subject. They have not been afraid to show their colors, they are men of backbone, and for that I admire them. The resolution proposed by Montreal I think has been rather unfairly interpreted, there is not a word in that about a contribution to the Imperial Government. Let that be distinctly understood. I, for one, would be the last to permit a single dollar of Canadian public money to be sent to the coffers of Great Britain until we have a voice in the expenditure of that fund. I do not think that is advocated, and that is the reason I support the Montreal resolution. I want to call the attention of the gentlemen who have opposed the Montreal resolution to this fact, that the very thing that the Montreal resolution asks for they claim is already done, and therefore why hesitate ? Almost every one of those resolutions upon the programme states, " We have already done our share," ;.ud if what we have done already is our share, the Montreal resolution commits you to do nothing further, the Montreal resolution simply asks you to do your share. But I think it is evident that if a gieat war over- took the Empire it would be necessary for us to have greater defences than we have had. I am proud this country was able to send so many able men who have given such a good account of themselves on the battle field, but if so much was required when a mere handful of people attacked the Empire, where would we be if one c' the great nations of Europe, or the great United States to the south of us, were to attack us ? I want to say if we want to maintain peace we must be prepared for war. (Applause). And though we are a commercial nation, a manufacturing nation, an agricultural nation, and a mining nation, that if we are touched we must be ready to defend our homes, our families, our country, and our institutions and our flag. I think the Montreal resolution only asks that we place a competent defence where it is available at the time it is wanted, but if that is done, there is nothing in the resolution that calls for us to do more. Our French Canadian friends, I think, will realize that if we had done our share, that is all that is expected of us. If it has been necessary to expend so much blood and treasure in a war in which there were scarcely 50,000 opposing soldiers in the field, where would we be if Canada were attacked by oue of the great powers of the world ? Are we ready for it ? We may say, " We will not be in it." Let any gentleman who says he will not be in it show how he will be out of it. Are we part of the Empire or not ? If you touch any part of a man's body you touch the man ; if you touch any part of the British Empire, if it is only a thousand square yards of territory, you touch the British Empire and the British flag. (Applause). And the same honor is required, the same uefence is required, and Britain has shed her blood for one single British subject before this, and I believe she will do it again. (Applause). That is the honor that we have, that a British subject is a British sub- ject the world over, and we know that in Africa and in other countries, the British Gov- ernment has not failed to expend vast sums of blood and treasure to defend a single individual. That is our boast, that a British subject can go round the world, and wherever he is he has the protection of our flag and our armies on land and on sea, they are all at the beck and call of the British subject if he is molested or set upon by any foreign foe. (Applause). If we have done our duty in thio rerpect we have to do nothing further, and this meeting is not in vain ; that we have placed before this country, before ourselves and before the Empire that Canada feels satisfied that she has done her duty, and not only that, but as soon as an opportunity arises she will do it again. If that is right then let us stand in v/ith this resolution moved by Montreal. I think nothing more simple could be proposed to cover the case. Britain enters into war with China, or some other country that we do not approve of, this resolution does not bind us to go there, but if the Empire is attacked by a Ill great power we are in it, because we are a part of the Empire, and we must furnish the men and money to defend that Empire, or our duty will demand that we relin- quish the protection of that flag, and tay to Great Britain, " We are n -t a part of rt»e Empiie, and therefore we will take no part of the defence of that Empire. All that this resolution asks is that we do our share towards the defence of the Empire, and that this money be expended by our own Government. This resolu- tion does not contain anything that this money is to be expended by the British Government. No money can be expended by Great Britain until we have a voice in its expenditure. We have not got representation in the British Parliament, and we do not want it, af at present constituted, and therefore this monev is to be expended by our own Government, and if it is found necessary to add a certain number of men to our militia and put one or two traininR ships on our coast, our Government will do that, and train our fishermen to take their share when the time comes, and I am sure that down in those lower Provinces we have men second to noue in the world. There are no better men in the world than those who are ex- posed to the terrors of the North Atlantic. I am sure that Canadians are able and willing and ready to do their duty, whether it comes to expending their life blood, or putting their hands in their pockets to contribute to the defences of the Empire, I trust that will be the attitude of this Conference, and that we will send it out to this country as the unanimous opinion of this Congress, that all that Canada can be expected to do is her share, and if we have done that that is all we ask for. Mr. Pattullo, N:.P.F., Woodstock— After listening to the eloquent remarks of the last speaker, and of others, I am sorry that I must begin the few observations I propose to make by expressing doubt as to the wisdom of commercial bodies of this country taking up at this stage in our national history this question of military and naval defence of »he Empit Perhaps any doubt I may feel on that score is not well founded. I erhaps it is v-iser to say this discussion will do a great deal of good in eliciting various opinions from the various parts of the Empire. As one who believes that the time has arrived when the representatives of all the Colonies of the British Empire might very well take up in a Conference, or in a series of Conferences, the question of the military and naval defence of the Empire, I am sorry I am not able to support the resolution from the Montreal Board of Trade. I quite appreciate and approve of most of the observations of the gentleman who has just sat down, but I do not approve of the point to which he leads iis. I do not share in his interpretation of that resolu- tion, and I may repeat an observation I made yesterday in reference to the com- mercial question, that I think quite as much depends on the form of any resolution we come to here as on its substance, because it is according to its form that it will be interpreted in Great Britain, where we desire any resolution passed in this country to have some effect. I think the objection to the Mot trea' ' 'd of Trade resolution is self-evident from the fact that it has elicited contr. ascussion here— it has elicited opposition here ; I think that should be fati ; and any resolution that we come to on this subject should be one arrived ^ with absolute unanimity, and we should not allow any resolution, no matter what its merits or demerits be, to go to Britain as the expression of the views of the majority here, it ought to go as an expression of the views of the whole Canadian people, because if it does not express the views of the whole Canadian people it will be robbed of half its merits. The resolution of the Montreal Board of Trade says specifically : " That, in the opinion of this Conference, it is the duty of this Dominion, as an important division of the Empire, to share in the cost of the general defence of the said Empire." That is clear ; it means in the entire cost of the defence of the Empire in all its parts. It is true it is qualified by the statement that the expenditure will be under the control of the Dominion Government, but any Imperial policy which would control the military and naval reserves of the Empire would be impossible to carry out. One object I have in opposing this question in its present form is that we represent commercial bodies. For myself I do not profess to have the least elementary knowledge of what the policy of the Empire should be in relation to either military or naval defence. Another thing, we have no means of knowing what the Imperial authon- -* »-■. tia |1 1 1^ if Ilii ties dnira of the Colonies in this connection at the present time. To illustrate, let us consider our Canadian contingent — I am one of those who oelieved we should not only have sent this contingent, but we should have paid the entire cost of it— (Hear, hear, and applause). No one here will suspect me of anv desire that Canada should not pay her full sha^e in every possible way to provide for the maintenance and strength and glory of the Empire, but it was not our fault, it was the command of the Imperial authorities that thmgs should be as they are. The point I wish to make is this, that whatever resolution we come to should be the united expression not only of everyone here, but of all the Canadian people. Lord Salisbury's advice has been quoted here, and quoted very aptly, °° Vfrl'beTn^'aToTal Canada and the United States. It does not in any way debar us o™ being a oyal son to be friendly with our neighbor. I believe that we are all a uni on this idea, that ' lada will yet be as griat a nation as the nation to the south of us, that Canad* will yet have as large a population as there is in Great Britam and Ireland and ScotTand^ Our political relations at the present time are perfectly satisfactory. AU we have to do is to get population and capital, and when we have a populat on of ten or twenty or thirty millbns of people, and our relations are cordial wuh the Empire and the United States, is there the slightest chance of 'Jere being any g eat war ? Could any person imagine that there could be any war between the United States and CanadaVwhen probably we would have two or three million men who were born in the United States, and two or three '"^ »?'»,C»"^^f '" J^'^ha" ever States ' It would be a civil war. and the most cruel civil war this world has ever seen The Press of Great Britain has suggested that if we c°°t"buted to Im^nal defences our share should be $30,000,000 a year. Is there any man in this Dominion of Canada who is prepared to commit Canada to the annual expenditure of $30.- 000^? Tf not. would not we belittle ourselves? I am afraid we would take awa^Slthe glory we have gained by the noble assistance given by our men in Soufh Africa if we give a paltry million dollars or so. when that ,s not looked «,pon as our share in Great Britain. I am strongly in favor of this portion of the Peter - boro resolution : " And it is not now necessary, in view of her ""developed con- d°ton!to pledge herself for expenditures f->r military and naval expenses wh-ch might criDDle heV in her course of development. What have we spent on mihtia in the last ten ylarsf We have spent fifteen millions of dollars. What have we got o show f^ it in point of development of Canada ? For agriculture $2.|oo 000- $i5.<^.Sk) for powder and shot: Emigration, to get im men and cap.Ul «^° y. 11,1^^ ; lighthouse and coast services, less than J5.000.000 ; for mail subsidies less then $5.^.ooo-yet we have spent $,5,000 000 on the militia n Canada What could that money have done towards /-.e development of Canada ? Take for instance the Algoma Central Railway, the interest of that subsidy amounts to about twenty to t^hirty thousand dollars a year, and yet it has brought into Canada eightee^to twenty millions of dollars. While we are spending a "»lhon and a half on militia each year, last year we had not one red cent for railways. I submit he PetTrboro resolution is absolutely right, that we have spent e°0"gh money on the Durooses of militia, and that we can strenRthen the defences of Canada and the Sees of The Empire f^ Vtter by building a Government railway to Hudson Bav which gives vou an' igress in case of war if war cSould ever occur. You can LtTengihen the finan< :lnada better V,' getting ten or twenty millions of loyal people into the Don • of Canada. Mr Iohn I. Long. CoUingwood-It occurs to me that this subject now under discus^J U of-'so much importance, not only to this Dominion but to the Bntish Emmre that the object will be fully served if the President of the Montreal Board Sffie Si accept the resolution which has been read by Mr. Wilkie. I thmk that resolution will cover the whole ground, and be rnore acceptable to the great maLritTof the people of this Dominion. I would take great pleasure in support- L Mr Wilkie's alternative suggestion. It meets my views exac ly ; it is in line wfth what we are already doing, and I think will be quite as effective m assisting Great Britain in time of need as by declaring in some other way. Mr C N. Bell. Winnipeg— I wish to say a word in favor of Mr, Evans amendment, and also why I take exception to the Montreal resolution. It says, K,.alvtd ■ That in the opinion of this Conference, it is the duty of this pominion as an imoorTaot ^vision of the Empire to share in the cost of the defence of the sa-d Empire, aT Ihefrfore that an annua! appropriation should be provided in the Dominion Budget for this purpose. -t J 120 If that means anything, it means we are not contributin;*; anything at all. It says an appropriation shall be made. I am a comparatively young man, but thirty-two years ago I was out on the frontier with a rifle in my arm when there was not a regular soldier within a thousand miles of where I stood, and am I to understand that on two or three occasions I have served in military service in Canada, in 1866, 1870 and 1871, and on the Red River expedition— four occasions— and on two of those occasions at least there was not a regular of the British Empire anywhere within a thousand miles of us— am I to understand that Canada has never made an appropriation for the defence of the Empire ? Is Canada not a part of the Empire ? I went to the southern boundary of Manitoba in 1870, and faced a Fenian Raid on the "rovince of Manitoba. There was no time to get British regular soldiers there. Am I to understand from this resolution that we are an integral part of the British Empire, and in the cost of the defence of the Empire we are to make an annual appropriation from now on ? There has always been an appropriation for the defence of the British Empire. This year there was an appropriation made for the establishment ot 100,000 militia for the defence of Canada. Is not that for the defence of the British Empire ? I object to that clause in the resolution, which if read by a person in England might be taken to mean from now on we are going to make an appropriation for the defence of the Empire. That part I think is wrong. I think the Montreal mover and seconder should look at that and consider the wording, and I think on the whole the resolution moved by Mr. Evans is more acceptable, that it is the expression of the people of Canada, that we are prepared to assist in defending the British Empire, and that Canada as a self governing Colony is prepared to assume such burdens in the defence of ourselves, and the general defence as the occasion may require. Mr. a. E. Kemp, M.P., Toronto — In order to facilitate the business of this Conference, I would take the opportunity of putting in your hands, Mr. ^- „iJent, a resolution whicl;, if the opportunity affords itself to-morrow, I would move, and I will read it now : Resolved : That this Conference desires to place itself on record as holding the opinion that the time has arrived when a plan of naval and coast defence should be favorably con- sidered, and that any money provided for such purpose by the Dominion Exchequer should be under the control and direction of the Dominion Parliament, and further that oui military and naval establishments should at all times be under the control of the Parliament of Canada, whether for service at home or in other parts of the Empire. Mr. Donnelly— I have listened with a great deal of patience and interest to the discussion, and I wish to say very briefly the reason why I cannot vote for the motion coming from the Montreal Board of Trade, and I believe I am in touch with the majority of this Conference when I say that the reason we do not want to vote (or it is that it at first appropriates money without having the matter consid- ered as it should be by the London Conference which will shortly take place. I do not think it would be right to vote for the Peterboro resolution owing to the same objection expressed by Mr. Pattullo, when he said the three lines quoted by him would not be proper to pass this Conference for the reason that if you cannot do anything for Great Britain, if you cannot do anything for the defence of the Empire, it would be better at this Conference not to so state it, because the enemies of Great Britain will take that up and use it. I do not tike a back seat to anyone in this Province in loyalty, but I think there is a little too much sentiment and not enough busiuess. If I had the power to move a resolution— and I am very much in accord with Mr. Kemp's resolution— I would say that we simply ought to resolve that this Conference is of the opinion that the Colonies should be factors in contributing to the defence of the Empire in any way the different Colonial Governments think best, and we would urge that this subject be considered at the London Conference. As I understand the matter at present, we have a motion and two amendments before us, none of which are acceptable to this Conference. It has got into a sort of deadlock, we have not taken any vote, consequently they have not been voted down, hut I think if this Conference were to pass a resolution that the matter of Imperial defence be 131 taken up— and it has our hearty support— and our representative go to Great Britain with instructions from us to discuss this matter, and then to come to a decision that will suit all Colonies of Great Britain— because we cannot expect to move alone in this question— then. I think, we will have solved the question of loyalty to the British Empire in the way the Colonial Governments think best. Conference adjourned at 5.30 p.m. to 10 a.m. to-morrow. FRIDAY MORNING The Conference resumed at 10 a.m., Friday, June the 6th, 1902, with President Ames in the chair. Mr. McFarlane, Ottawa— I noticed that it is possible to give a notice of motion, as it were, of further amendments, even though they might not come up for immedi- ate discussion, and I am desirious of giving notice that later on when I have the opportunity I shall move an amendment. This amendment I might say is no new thing, it has been advocated for the last seventeen years ; it was brought up at the Colonial Conference of 1887, and it there obtained the approval of all the Colonial representatives present. It was brought up later in 1900. and was read before the Congress of representatives of the Chambers of Commerce of the Empire in the resolution from Montreal and the resolution from Ottawa, and I want to call your attention to the fact, especially the members of the Board of Trade of the City ot Toronto, that at the present moment one of their most distinguished fellow towns- men is now advocating essentially the thing p.oposedin this amendment in England, and trying to convert .he people of England to the same principle. I think it would be a most important thing in his advocacy of the principles that make for Imperial unity, that he should be told, » This Conference of Trade delegates from all provinces of the Dominion approve of your scheme." I shall not trouble the Conference any further because my object is simply to bring it to the knowledge of the Conference, because I am convinced after fifteen years' study that this is the solution, and I believe the only solution to the problem that has confronted the Congress during the last two or three days. With your permission, Mr. President, I will read it : That this Conference while unable to recognize the necessity for anv change at present in the arrangement which exists regarding the military defence of the Dominion, is ol tbe opinion that a small, special and uniform customs duty should be 'e^" »^" Poi".«l out to-day that it we are 5^suSM 7' °^ ' "'"™'y '"' l^""''^ «° ^°''^ 'f^"> '"is Confere^nce tha we are disunited, that we cannot agree in the sentiments we send forth to the world It would be far better to have no resolution at all than to have it said we cannot' agree Whatever we say here to-day. let us say -t with force. I would Tik. ?o S2 f.n^^-'°" P""*! '° ''^y confirming this principle that we. as Canadians, ins^ ihTvSfln^ "'•^''' *''"' '"" '"'"' "P°." •*•''"« °"' ^'^""^ ^'^ '"«^°. belonging to a iaUon that when we say we .re a nation, it is not merely the wish is father to the fhough" fnl T?'""^!"'""' 'l^' ''^ .*'" ^ " nation, and those words are noffi nu^t inn ol'!?V^'""'T"' '**"' 'e«>»"tio'> should state that we should expend"" the Si ?* 'l»;~"^^»'*»«ver money ,t would be necessary to expend if we were a nation. We have to protect our commerce, we have to protect our shores we are spending money to-day in trade commissioners, we are trying to oinTpourcom merce with the world we are having a fast Atlantic service, we are talkmg of haT ng transportation to South Africa and Australia-these ships hav^ to S protect^ • If we were anation, if we were standing apart from England, and not dependent Sn her we would have to protect them with a navy. . " noi aepenaent upon Mr. Perrault, Montreal— This is a very large question, in fact it involves th» future relations of the Mother Country with her Colonies. I am sure every dele but'a? h.' '°°'" f.'^'"''''.^''^' \« «h°»ld provide for the permanency of the 4S «hi K ^H"^ "T ^'^^ ^^^^^ Confederation of Caniida the fair justice Xch th!t tlhlZ^^'u °''""°- ^^'- °°'-y '^l^'^'^'y """""K "^ •« 'o find the Sution of that problem. How can we maintain this great Empire for the future, aud how nLi?'''Tl*T' '''° we give justice to this great Colony which shouS b^ a nation ? This I propose to discuss, and I do hope that what I may say will b^ taken m good part by my colleagues. We are not trammelled by electors^ as hey are in Parliament. Members there look to their future election.^ They are afS ZL?""" VP'r '?"" ""'^'^ °P'°*°° "^ Public questions, becaus^e they fe„ that It may affect their future political life. Here we are assembled, nonpohtical men with only one desire-to do good service to the Empir. and to Canada Now to discuss he question intelligently, let us first consider the posiVion which t^e Sir WilWH 'l°^ Canada has taken on this question. We find th'is in a rpeech of rln}; r "f^" '" ■'^* ."°"^ °^ Commons, and what does he say ? He said thTin'T-^''!ly '^''^^^'^ *'*^ '^« P^*'^^"' «'»'*°"'' o( the Mother CounVry.Tnd Ln^LT 1 "^ '*'*' '"J™!?"* expenditure which would be necessary to develop the unlimited resources of this country, he does not believe in Canada spendinethS rhan)L!;!^''""^./'f T"- That proposition has been entertamedm Great Britain I happened myself to be in London-Oh my! forty years ago. in 1862 durine' the fnK"°°i'K ^?u^°''- } hud the privilege of sitting on tL* floor of^he House Minister'of th'' 'p' privilege of hearing the great Palmerston. who was then Pr^me Srl^- °f ^he Emp^e; Gladstone, who was Finance Minister, and both gave their opinions of what was then considered to be the defence of the Empire W sir what did these great statesmen say ? What should be the policy 7the Empire on that grea question ? They affirmed that the policy of GreaVfirhain was no? to expend millions yearly to prepare for a war that would never hapin --Ld If you ook back Great Britain never had any war since-I do nT'soeak fnfLrfv '""" f*"J''y»'o»We in South Africa, but there has bee. no sarious^wai in forty years and the proposition of Lord Palmerston was this. Let us devdopThe of the'Eml^ ^^""^"'^ '' us increase the wealth of the Empire, the p'S on of the Empire and our Colonial domains, let us accumulate wealth and a reserve -Mtranw^mn^m'fstT'^ ^ I tHi'-^kSAS^ik,^^^^ 135 fund, and when the time tu fight comes we will have millions in the cofTeisof Great Britain, we will equip ourselves with the most :Jodern instruments of war, both in ships and guns, and in '.very equipment to meet our foes, and then will be the time, and time enough to provide for Ihe defenc«. of Great Britain. At that time there was a scare, every county on the coast of Great Britain wanted to have immense fortifications, s.ud they wanted fortifications for every port. There was a question of spending hundreds of millions for the defence of Great Britain and Ireland. That policy was not the policy that Palmerston adonteJ, and our Prime Minister to-day is following in those steps. What Sir Wilfrid Laurier proposes, and what the Government of Canada proposes — and, mind you, whei: the House of Commons of Canada has adopted, as it has done, a policy of self-defence, we have to respect the opinions of these men who are the quaHfied speakers of the people they represent, and it is idle, I consider, for a Confer- ence of gentlemen to come, and, m the face of that declaration, to say that the policy of that Government is not the right one, and that the Prime Minister should go I ■> England to that great Conference to take place there, trammelled with this policy, and should not be left to apply the principle which he has announced from his seat in Parliament. Mr. a. E. Kemp, Toronto — May I be allowed to interrupt the speaker for a moment 7 I think we ought not to introduce anything of a controversial nature in this discussion. There has been no unanimous policy adopted there, and, there- fore, I would ask my friend not to refer to that particularly, because if he continues to do so, I shall feel obliged, when I speak, to combat what he says, and thus the discussion would be prolonged. Mr. Pbrrault, Gaspe — I thought that I should have to establish the ground on which I propose (he scheme which I will have the honor to submit. As i said, the object of the scheme is to maintain the British Empire in its integrity, and to prevent its destruction by complications in the future. If you look to the history of Great Britain you wi ! .'^nd that disruption has already taken place in the British Empire. When the ColoL ida attend to her interests. I may say, gentlemen, that I do not approve entire! A the position which the Governn. -t of Canada has taken, I say a policy of inactivity, a policy of inertia, is not a policy worthy of the Great Dominion of Canada. I say the Prime Minister of Canada, when he goes to the Corona- tion should have a policy, and when he is asked what he could suggest should not have as an i.nswer, ' have nothing to suggest." He should have a policy which would establish v. at the future political position of Canada and the Empire will be, one towards the other, and I say, sir, that if we are sincere in our devotion to Canada, if we are sincere in our devotion to the British Empire, it is for this Conference and this meeting to adopt the resolution, which will be histori- cal in its results and which will secure the permanency of the Empire, and at the same time elevate the people of Canada to the greatness of sovereignty. I say, sir, that this great country is no more a olony. We were tolil so last night by the Prime Minister of Ontario, and I say we have all the attributes of a great and growing nation. I say, in every quejtion of resource and intellectual equipment we are prepared to be a nation ; but, sir, on the other hand, I say this, that if we are sure to be a nation we shmld be citizenr. of the Empire, not only subjects of the Empire. I say that every Canadian should be proud to say, " I am a citizen of the British Empire." (Applause.) I am not a Colonist, as the gentleman said just now. We have a right to that position with our five millions of people in Canada, with the prospects of a great nation. We have a right to say to-day we should have all the rights and privileges of a free people ; always under the Crown of England, always seeing to its interests, but also seeing to the interests of Canada, f* i i I- jj ill \iv. :. 1 36 and to do this there it a simple way, and thin ii what I have the honor to propose. I say, let us have fall autonomy, not only in domestic matters, but in foreign matters. Let the King of England be not only King oi Great Britain and Ireland, but B,*«o the King of Canada and Australia ; let the crown which will be put on the head of King Edward be not only the crown of Great Britain and Ireland, but let it be the crown of Great Britain, Ireland, Canada and Australia, all of these great sister nations; and this will give the Empire of Great Britain a per- manency which we hope it will have ; it will prevent alt the frictions that are sure to occur if this Colonial system continues. We will each have our own autonomy for governing our own business ; Canada will have its foreign ministers to transact commercial questions with other nations in the world, we will provide for the defence of Canada, and we do not want Grea Britain to help us to do it ; we have defended Canada before. Prbsidknt Ames — I must be allowed to interrupt ; you have exceeded your time. Mr. PiaRAULT, Gaspe — I am sorry I should not be allowed a few minutes more to complete my argument. (" Go on, go on). I thmk the permanency of the Empire is interested in what I am saying. Allow me to tell you, sir, that eminent men favor the project which I have had the honor to submit to-day. As long as we are dependent on the Colonial Department of Great Britain, as long as our Parliamentary legislation is subject to the jurisdiction of the Colonial office we are not a nation ; we are to be a nation here just as much as Great Britain is a nation at home. I was told by Sir Jnbn Macdonald when I was in Parliament, before Confederation — I am one of the < id guard under Brown and Dorien,— and he has maintained it in Parliament that the Privy Council in Canada was equal to the Privy Council in England, that the Privy Council of Canada had the Queen of England as its official head, and we had the full right to legislate for Canada just as much as the Parliament of Great Britain legislated for England. This is the theory, but as to the practice, we know well that the whole of our legislation has to pass through the Colonial office. We know well if we have to go to the Uni'.e'^ States for a post office question we have to send a document to the Colonial office, to the Secretary of State, to the post office department of England. They will communicate with the Ambassador in Washington, that gentleman will send it to the post office department in Washington, and an answer will go from there across the Atlantic and in six months after will reach us. Why should we not be allowed to transact our own business with our neighbor and everybody else in a direct manner ? We would still be under the King of Great Britain, and still form part of the British Empire. No more friction would be p)ossible within the Empire, no more disruption would be possible, as happened in the case of our neighb' ts to the south. I am sure that was the worst thing that ever happened to G reat Britain when that disruption took place. As to our defence, I say we ought to assume the defence of Canada. We should have our Army and Navy, and when I speak of our Army, I am proud to say that we have men in Canada who on the field of battle are the equals of any other men. We have a history dating back two or three hundred years, we are Canadians who have been fed on this Continent, who have been braced by our climate, men whose energy and pluck and endurance and devotion have astonished the world when we had to meet our foes. This energy and pluck and endurance exists still, we have the best material possible for making soldiers, when they are wanted ; but, sir, I maintain that our boys who are in the army, that the pupils of the military school at Kingston, should not be only Colonials with no aspiration erf being generals; I maintain that Canada hasher troops and should have the high command of those troops, and not be obliged to go to England to get a superior officer to command them. We have some of the best men in the British Army to-day who are Canadian officers, and by this arrangement we would have the command of our Navy. We would have our own coastguards, we would have all this expenditure, and we would be glad to do it because we would have a nationality, we would be recognized to the world as Canadians, and the title of Colonials would not be attached any more. We would be citizens of this great ^W, la; country and we would not have the dnwbftdi of beinn only Colonial* on the Con- tinent of America, where eighteen republics have obtained their lull tight* and liberty. PaisiPENT Ames, Toronto— I would like Mr. Masson to assume the chair for a short time, as I would like the privilege of addressing the Conference myself upon this question. Mr. Masson took the chair. Mr. Pattullo, M.P.P., W^stock— I do not rise to continue the discussion. I think we should confine ourselves absolutely to the resolutions in hand. This is a question which lends itself very readily to rhetoric and I think perhaps rhetoric is a good thing, because it is the expression of sentiments which we all foel, and of which we may justly be proud ; but, sir, after the inspiiing influence of the coffee with which you provided us, and perhaps the more benign influence of sleep, we aught to have our heads clear this morning, and what I fear is this, that when the jlr^ussion here and the rflsolulions that we may come to are read abroad and m England, the British authorities will think tne heart of Canada is all right but that our head is not clear. We want to create the impression aUoad t.iat our head is just as clear as our heart is right. I believe this discussion has done goo•. come up at all. I will go further and say I agree with the statements made by our Premier, Sir Wilfrid Laurie, on the floor of the House, when he stated that he agreed with Sir Charles Tupper that the day that this country bound itself to England to help to support her wars, that day we would begin to drive in the wedge that 10 '34 would break up the British Empire. I honestly believe that is the truth. I feel this Conference is not qualified to decide this question. I think the men behind this resolution are zealous people, they have the good wishes of this country at heart, but I really believe they are mistaken, and I say the best thing we can do is to bury this militarism. I give credit to our Government for refusing to discuss this question at all in going to England. Mr. William Preston, Stratford— I am glad to have an opportunity of speaking for a minute or two to express my approval of the motion read by Mr. Robertson. I ask the question : " What does the defence of Canada consist in, how can we b^st improve the defences of Canada ? " I claim we can best improve the defences of Canada, not necessarily, or perhaps at all by an expenditure of money in the way of naval equipment and coast defences, but by maintaining the loyalty, the warm-hearted loyalty of the people of Canada to the British Empire. Can the defences of Canada, as thus expressed in the loyalty of Canada to the British •Empire at the present time, be strengthened any more than at present ? The South African war has proven to the world that Canada is full of loyalty to the Mother- land, and at the present time it does not require any agreement between us, either as regards preferential tariflF or in regard to defences for Canada to range herself alongside the Old Land in her time of trouble, and if necessary to die with her as against the whole world. I maintain, Mr. President, that in considering the ques- tion of the policy of this matter as Canadians we must consider firstly the unity of the Dominior of Canada. We cannot do anything more to weaken the Empire than to imperil the unity of Canada, and any action that is taken in this regard niLst receive the endorsement of every Province in this country, and of every race inhabiting i:. I believe we should go slow on this question. Mr. Stephen Noxon, Ingersoll — I am sure the Board will agree with me that this matter is one of no small importance. This is evidenced by the great amount of time and earnest attention which is being given to it by this Conference. I must say that I am not in accord with any of the resolutions which have been put before this meeting. I would rather caution that we go slowly in this matter. The country has been making military history pretty fast for the last two or three years. We have proved the loyalty of the people of this country and their willing- ness to assist the Empire in cases of necessity, and we will be glad to assist again when the occasion arises. I believe it would be most unfortunate if we put our- selves on record to any considerable extent at the present lime which would bind us to any future course, for the reason, we might find as matters developed that we had not gone far enough, or, on the other hand, that we had gone too far. I do not believe, Mr, President, with all due deference to the members who are here to- liay, that we are sufficiently aware of the sentiment of this country at the present time to pronounce for the people, whom we represent, as to what their particular views are in regard to this matter. I think it would be far better if we delayed for a short time, and wo would then come more in touch with the sentiment of the people generally. We, as business men, are more enthusiastic in matters of this kind. The majority of the people of this country, who are the body politic, are not in sufficient touch with us at the present time for us to say what their sentiments are. I would advise us to go slowly at this time, and not commit ourselves for the future to anything we would have cause to regret. Mr. George E. Drummond, Montreal — I think my friend Mr. Noxon could not have been here on Wednesday when we discussed the grep*^ question of prefe-* rential trade between England and her Colonies, or he would not take the position that we did not owe anything to England. Mr. Noxon, Ingersoll— I did not say we did not owe anything to England, you must have misunderstood me, but I may say now that I do not think we are in a position to say what it should be. Mr, George E. Drummond, Montreal— The reason I refer to this is that our friends from the West, and every Canadian here supported them, made the state- ment that we could supply the Empire with her food supplies. I, for one, would never have supported that resolution if I did not believe that Canadian people had '35 self-respect enough to pass a resolution <■ lincident with that, undertaking to deliver the goods in England. (Hear, hear). One of the strongest arguments brought against our contention that the Great West could supply England was brought up by Mr. Chown of Kingston. Mr. Chown said Gieat Britain today is guaranteed more or less in times of war because she obtains her food supplies from so many different nations. We are going into competition with those foreign powers, and — I want to talk as a business man — we want to be in a position to deliver the goods safely, whether it is in war time or in peace. We must not forget that Great Britain during all the history of the past most generously has by her flag protected every single cargo that Canadians have sent across the Atlantic and we are bursting our bands in Canada, we are reaching out for a market all over the world, and in reaching for that market we must have protection, whether we pay for it ourselves or Great Britain pays for it. Mr. M. C. Ellis, Toronto— I think that the general opinion of Canada has been pretty well voiced by a statement which was made by Mr. Barton, the Premier of the Commonwealth of Australia, when he said : " We must remember that the difficulties of the Empire are the difficulties of Australia." By that he did not mean we were to jump into every war in the Empire, but that we must be pre- pared to take our share in all matters which affect the integrity of the Empire, even as the Empire with all its magnificent resources was always ready to help us, and help us with no slothful hand. On this subject among the Colonies I thmk there is a divergence of views ; in the varying conditions of the Colonies no scheme is applicable to all, but with all there lies a strong desire to maintain to the utmost the strength and integrity of the Empire. Our future depends on the strength of the Empire. Preferential Trade has been introduced to us, we have asked for it, and we have passed that request almost unanimously. Are we in the face of making that request to ask for something and to declare our- selves unwilling to do something in return ? We have already admitted our obligations, therefore we have no objection to admitting our obligations in a reso- lution, nor do we think so meanly of the talent of our Premier or of the Colonial Premiers that they cannot devise a means whereby to fulfil these obligations with- out the least likelihood of our voluntary action being impaired. Further light is needed, and the chief work of this Conference is to provide a resolution which will be an answer to the invitation which has been extended to this country on the question of defence, and what we as business men want to do is to say that we are prepared to accept a measure of responsibility so long as in the matter of payments they shall be made and controlled by the Dominion Goverr .nent. We have no machinery at present to authorize any payments to be made to the British Exchequer ; it would be taxation without representation. Mr. Ransford, Clinton— I desire to place myself on record in no uncertain sound, as being in favor of the Montreal resolution. We have heard a great deal about the United States. We have heard the United States referred to as our friendly neighbors, a title which I wish I had time to take exception to and to give my reasons why I do not regard them as friendly neighbors. So many gentlemen on the floor of this House have spoken of the United States in adulatory terms, and I think some of these people would like to hear what a very prominent opinion in the United States is on this question. Mr. Dumble, Peterboro— I object to anything being said here that may make feeling with us and our neighbors. I do not think it is in point. Mr. Ransford, Clinton— I am going to restrain myself from saying what I would like to with that very view, but I want to tell this House what an opinion in the United States is in reference to this very subject. President Ames— I think that is out of order. This is a question of defence, and that means possible complications with the United States or anybody else. The opinion of the United Stales, or that of any other country, at this stage I think is not a fit subject. Mr. Ransford, Clinton— When the people in the United States tell us that the very least we can do - concerned, it should be used to form a naval reserve, and I am firmly of the opinion that, if we are asking so much and are so bold in intruding ourselves into the commercial policy of the Empire, we should be willing to assume, in some measure, a portion of the burdens that we incur by the adoption of the trade policy which has been suggested by these Chambers of Com- merce. Therefore I have much pleasure in supporting the resolution of the Montreal Board of Trade. Mr. S. D. Stone, Sault St. Marie — I wish just in one word to express my opposition to the resolution of the Montreal Board of Trade. If this country has any money to expend upon niuitia for defence it should be expended in the Dominion. I speak for the Peterboro resolution. I do not think any gentle- man here can claim that this country is at the present time equal to voting any- thing like five million dollars a year for outside defence. If $5,000,000 were expended in providing better dock facilities it would so add to the solidarity of the Dominion that the strength of the Empire would be ten times better. Mr. G. F. Campbell, Halifax Board of Trade— I have come with an open mind to this discussion, thinking some amendment might be oftered which would be an improvement on the Montreal resolution, and I have not yet heard any amendment which has in my opinion improved upon it. I very much sympathize with the amendment suggested by the gentleman from Toronto and if that were going to be a compromise I would be glad to vote for it, but I do not think it will be accepted as a compromise and therefore I am going to vote for the Montreal resolution. Mr. Thompson, North Sydney — Are the representations in the Peterboro reso- lution correct ? The insinuation in the first clause is that we built the Canadian Pacific Railway for military purposes. (Several delegates, No, no). Look at the resolution. I submit that that resolution implies that the C-P-K. was built for military purposes and at considerable cost to the country, which indicated we are willing to assist the Imperial Government, but therefore, having done our duty, we should not be called upon for further defence of the Empire. I submit that the Canadian Pacific Railway was built for commercial purposes. I submit British Columbia came into Confederation on the understanding that there was to be a transcontinental railway built. That railway was built for commercial purposes, and it has been a grand success. It has repaid Canada a hundred fold, or it will 138 very soon, but I cannot see how any honorable gentleman here can vote for a reso- lution which says that the Canadian Pacific Railway can be used for Imperial pur- poses aiiQ therefore we sho-ijd do nothing. The Imperial Government is today spending money for the defence of Canada, right down at Halifax ; forts are being bunt there that are costing thousands and tens of thousands of dollars. This resolution goes on to say that we will assist in time of need. That means Great Britain is to keep up the defences of the Dominion of Canada at her own expense, and when a war comes we will be generous enough to send men to help them, but in the mean- time the taxpayer of Great Britain has to pay money for the military forces of Canada. I believe we should furnish money to build forts if necessary, and carry on the defence of this Dominion. Presidknt Amis— I will declare *-• debate closed except for the reply of the mover of the resolution. Mr. Watts, Toronto— Do you ii.c-n the debate is closed on the whole ques- tion, or that there may be an amendment moved when the amendment to the amendment is disposed of. President Ames— I mean we are ready for the vote and there -vill be no more speaking before that vote is taken, except by the mover of the resolution. Mr. McFee, Montreal— In my remarks yesterday I endeavored to emphasize .nat this country possessed a wealth that in importance no other part of this Empire could equal and it was on that ground that I claimed we should have every guarantee that this hentape that we possess should be kept available to us. Since X have listened .^ the arguments I am more convinced that this resolution which I moved is the proper resolution for us as a commercial body to pass. We intend as Canadians that there shall be in the hands of our Finance Minister at Ottawa something that will provide for the necessary defence of the Empire from a Cana- dian standpoint. We don't say what that should be, but we have a heritage here, and we require every guarantee possible that this country vill have ample protec- tion. I hope I have made myself clear in regard to our resolution. As o the Feterboro amendment which is before the Conference the whole gist of that amendment is summed up in three words, " It may be assumed." Do I hear any business man in this Jonference say he is prepared to do business on an assumption ? President Ames— Your time is up, Mr. McFee. declaT^d l*T""*^™^°' '° '*** amendment was put to the meeting, voted on and The Peterboro amendment was then voted on. and the President declared the amendment lost. Mr. a. E. Kemp, M.P., Toronto— I beg to move the following amendment : ^'"' '?^*.S!L"/^?w'*,?i''nJ!?'w'^° record M holding the opinion that the Dominion a. an [^!?i.^l,P^^f"'%^u'*"*'' ^!"P'" '"'°"''* arrange a plan ofcoaat and naval defence for the protection of her growing commerce on the seas "<=«"«> I am not going to take up the time of the Conference at this stage in discussing the question ; I would rather this Conference had not met than for us to sav that our mihtia system should not be extended to take in a coast defence system as well. We are not contributing to the British Exchequer, so we are not putting any- thing beyond our control, but 1 think we ought to take a more independent position, and that we will not be under any obligation whatever to the British taxpayer. We are men and ought to take an honorable position in regard to this matterf Mr. Hugh Blain, Toronto— I beg to second that resolution, and my only motive in doing this is that I believe it will improve my citizenship. Mr. Kemp's amendment was voted on and declared lost, ment**'*' ^*""'''-°' ^■^•^•' Woodstock-I beg to move the following amend- That we, the delegates of thw Boards of Trade Conference, recognizing the value of Canada's of ™Sh .^'"'°.''fi'''''^K"='u *5''='!,'"»y be said to include ex.enfive and pawing „<«« of rapid transit through the Provinces of Confederation and from ocean to oc^n the »39 mainlmance of an e«fectiv« militia foice. of a national military collew. with local icbooli for military training (which the loyt.1 devotion of the wh )le Canadian PfP'* «'' the British Crown and British inn itutlona during the recent war in South Africa ua ■hown to conttltute an important contribution to Imperial power) ; RecoanizinR, also, the gtowth of Canadian commerre. as well a« of the internal trade and the . industries of the Don. ilon. and the poMlbilities of its extension throughout the world ; Realiiing, also, ai we do. the value of Great Britain's naval power in the maintenance and protection of her commerce, and the necessity. In view of changed and changing modem conditions, as reveal-d by recent warn and the naval policy of other countries, of ade- quate means of defence for thr future ; We. the delegates from the commercial bodies of the Dominion, desire to record our opinion that the question of naval as v»ell as of internal defence is one that should now engage the earnest attention of our statesmen and people, especially in its relation to the main- tenance and protection of Colonial trade at home and abroad. B* it thtrtfoTt rttolvtd : That we memorialize the Government of Canada to keep Itself In communication on the subject by correspondence or conference with the GovernmanU of other British Colonies and with the Imperial authorities, m order that the develop- ment of our policy of defence may more adequately provide for the protection and pro- motion of Colonial interests, and contribute also, lo times cf common danger, to the strength and integrity of the whole British Empire. Mr. Hugh Blain, Toronto— In seconding thpt resolution I may say that I consider it the next best thing to the resolution just disposed of. Mr. Pattullo's amendment was lost on a vote of 34 yeas, 36 nays. The main resolution, moved by Mr. McFee, of Montrtssl, was then put to the Conference and was carried on a vote of yeas 40. nays 32. The Conference adjourned at 1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m. On resuming at 2.30 p.m. President Ames read the following letter frrm the Hon. R. L. Borden : A E. Ants, Esq . President Toronto Board of Trade : „ „ ,, n. B.. n. , =w . Halifax, N.S.. May 31st. n,-->a. DiAa Ma. Ames.— It is with great regret that I Bnd myself unable to be present at the Bau- auet which is to be tendered to the delegates attending the Conference of the Boards cf Trade oJ rtie Dominion of Canada at Toronto. Professional engagements which Lave been long postponed and which cannot be delayed further compel my pretence here during the next three weeks at *"'' Permit me to congratulate the Toronto Board of Trade upon its foretliought In promoting thU Conference of the leading business men throughout the Dc ■inion. On many occasloni I tave maintained the necessity that not only our pubfic men but our ntiieos generally throughout Canada should become better acquainted with the diffe'ent portions of the country. This eminently appllea to those who represent different communities In their Boards of Trade. Nothing will contribute more to disarm prejudice, dissipate suspicion and enable a sound and reasonable conclusion to be reached than to have men from all sections of our country meeting together for the purpose of freely dis- cussing issues which are of vital importance, not only to our commercial interests, but to the country The present occasion is eminently opportune for a conference of this kind. There are grave questions to be discussed between members representing the Government of this country and thMe representing the Imperial Government and the Governments of other great dependencies of the Empire The matters which are to be diecuwed at thM Imperial Conference have to some extent forined the subject of debate in Pariiament. and it Is eminently Siting that at this juncture they should be also debated bv men who, although possibly not engaged in active public "fe, are leadora in the commercial life of" this country aiiU In close touch with every business interest which may be affected by the result of that Conference. , . ^ j. j 1 I sincerely trust that the result of vour deliberations may materially assist the Canadian dele- gates to the Conference and may prove of use in its deliberations With thanks for the very kind invitation of your Board of Ttade. and with renewed regrets that I am unable to be present, I remain, dear Mr. Ames, , . , , „ Yours faithfully, R. L. BoaDSN. OANADIAK OOPYRIORT D.E. Thomson, K.C.Toronto Board of Trade— Thisresoliition wastohave been moved by another gentleman, who unfortunately is not able to be present, and I was asked to second it ; but in view of several considerations, and particularly in »40 consideration of the limited time at the disposal of the Conference, it has been decided to substitute another and simpler resolution for that which you find prmted in the programme before you. The resolution as now amended confines itself strictly to the one point, namely our right in Canada to make our own laws on the subject of Copyright. I want to say that the resolution originally framed by the Board of Trade went practically no further, but it introduced some matter about which there might be controversy. There are several reason- why, I think it is wise, especially at this stage, to confine ourselves to the one point. The questions of who shall make the laws, and what those laws shall be when made are two separate matters, and mixing them together leads to confusion to begin with. In the next place it wems to me rather idle for us here to discuss what laws should be passed by our Farliament while the English authorities are practically denying our right whatever to pass any laws on the subject. In the third place, as already intimated in my opemng, the fact that there are still some important matters to be disposed of. and our time is limited, is an additional reason why we should avoid con- troversial points. I will not refer at any length to what these points are. excep to point out that like most other subjects, this matter affects differ- ent classes of people, and different interests, and these interests would have i^,.. ^^'^^[l ^y.*'""?v" body proposed to legislate on the subject. The i! fh •". t^« P"W|sher IS not always the same as the interest of the author, and the in erest of the reader may be different from either of those. Whatever body legislates on this subject must fairly and honestly give thought and attention and consideration to all views and all standpoints, but the position of matters with reference to our right to legislate, as I understand it, speaking in the rough, is this: Ihe subject of copyright is one of the subjects enumerated in the British North America Act as coming within the exclusive jurisdiction of the Dominion Parlia- ment, and under this clause It has always been contended that we have the same flf.'^T °,W*^" °" '''^t *"bject as we have on any other that is enumerated in that Act, that is to say. that our action is not open to Imperial veto, except on the wTIm""*"'' '^ ^^u^^. '° 'ii" **'"^, limitations and restrictions as any other X^ 1 H-^'^^'f- -^^^ law officers of the Crown in England have apparently taken a different view, and they contend that, so far as copyright is concerned, l..nH Tl .* * restricted meaning, one ground of that contention being, as I under- fff..l-^\l r^'."" '842, before Confederation, there was Imperial legislation which ronvrfaht^!.^K T?' ""^er which anyone getting a copyright in England had a copyright in the Colonies also. It has come to pass in the course of time that there IS an international compact, known as the Berne compact or treaty, to which mos European countries are parties. The United States is not a party to that SHsJlt«Yn%K*i'*'P;'"*^ understanding, not exactly a treaty, between the Un ed tllfll »nH p"^ '"^' f^^ r'^*'' '*'" '""" °^ '^^' arrangement be iveen the Tin !h t a"d England, the American copyright depends on publication in the Tlm'^ s^f f„ ^* i^^ must be set up. printed, published and bound m the United States England on the other hand is more generous, and all that 1 hairn,! ^° American publication to get copyright in England is that a half a dozen copies be deposited in Stationers' Hall. A good many people hv ,hU r I !•" ^ "J^^l^.^P-^" '° controversy, at any rate it is not covered to^ wfd/f • k"- I ''""J' " " "1""^ ^"''"g^' *' 'his stage while our right thatlS%nH h^ ^.Tf- "'• I'^t'.^'^ ^''°"''^ fi"^ and foremost insist In ^VJrf 'uA *''?/,'?^' IS settled it will be time enough to look into other matters. It does not follow that we must adopt the American principle; all that en. '".»«"/°'/"bse^uent consideration. I think in the shape in which i r .7 '° f^^""'^ ^y 'hts "-esolution we can all agree, and if any gentlemen desire to follow thematter up I would ask them to look up the paper Dreplred by S^r John STK.'^"''"^ '^" '"'' y**" °/^'^ *'^«' °° this subject, an i I want to\ay Vha" Sir John Thoninson was one of the most eminent jurists who ever gave his services £ foundTnThrF'''fPvfP;' ' "■'^"^ '? '' °°'' °^^^« «^'«^' State papers that are to be found in the English tongue and it sticks directly to this point, and insists that we must have the same right to legislate on this subject as we have on '4« other subjects, without which we are not really accorded self government. 1 need not elaborate (hat point, but there are a Rreat many common sentiments that actuate our minds and hearts, but I think you will find it is forever true when it comes to matters of government there is no other sentiment, with the Anglo Saxon race, and 1 think I may say with the French race equally, that will be allowed to dominate this civilization than that we must be allowed to manage our own affairs, ■■•■ legislation must be made by ourselves, and that lesson which England learueu . : bitter experience largely from the Ameri- can revolt, is the secret largely of her success in colonial affairs, and it is only commonplace to say that in refusing the right to legislate on such an important subject as copyright, it is introducing a piece of the old Colonial system in its most offensive form. I do not think it is a matter for declamation here, although it is a subject that easily lends itself to that purpose. It is quite unnecessary. I think the present condition of things is intolerable, and 1 think that we should stick straight to that point. The right to govern ourselves includes the right to mis- govern ourselves, and there is a sense in which it is better to pass that law for our- selves than for England to pass a good law for us. The resolution I wish to move is: That this Conference retpeclfuUy but ttroogly urges the Premier of this Dominion and his colleagues to take up with the law off ers of the Crown of England, the right of Canada to make its own laws on the subject of Copyright, with"- i its rights as a self-governing colony sre incomplete. Mr. J. D. Allan, Toronto— The very clear manner in whicli the mover of this resolution has placed the various points before you makes it quite unnecessary for me to take up the time of this Conference, but let us do what he has said. The one principle that seems to have dominated all the subjects we have had discussed has been Canada first. I take it that this is an exemplification, as we have all been talking of our desire. Without further remarks I will cheerfully second the resolution. , Mr. Georgb Robertson, St. John— 1 feel with the knowledge that I have of this question, and I do not say it is very extensive, constrained to oppose this motion, and I hope this Convention, unless they know a great deal more about it than I do, will take this position. To my mind it is turning back the hands of the clock. Surely we are going to protect the authors of this country, and as I under- stand it, the copyrights we are participating in and working under in the Dominion of Canada today give a Canadian author the right to have justice done him in not only any part of the Empire, but in many other countries in Europe and in the United States as well. Allow me to read a few words from a Toronto Globe : " The subject of copyright to be discussed by the Boards of Trade resolutions involves two questions and the confusion sometimes results from not separating them ; one is whether the Canadian Parliament ought to have full i^ower to legislate, and the other is the sort of legislation it ought to enact when that power is obtained. As to the former point there would be no difference of opinion." Mr. Thomson— That is the only point covered by this resolution. Mr. Robertson — You have that here already. Mr. Thomson — No, sir. Mr Robertson— I venture to prophesy that the Canadian Government won't touch that resolution with a ten foot pole, they won't interfere with the justice that the authors of Canada can get under the present copyright. I was at a meeting of the Chambers of Commerce in London, and the resolution was carried there unani- mously ; it was seconded by one of those grand minds of New Zealand, broad as the globe, and round as the globe, who believes that brains should be protected in all parts of the worid. I do not desii to insinuate at all, but it struck me as being somewhat remarkable that here in the printed programme we have a resolu son with a number of " Wheteas's ", and without it ever having berr; discussed all - are eliminated, and the matter is brought d^'- " to thi» - sint question as tc ther the Canadian Parliament has power low uiat the power.- >» the Canadian Parliament are unlimited. ^n is, what object you have i4a in view when you ask this Convention to endorse this resolution. 1 am not going to say any more. I have a letter here addressed to the President of the St. John Board of Trade sent by a gentleman, who I believe is a responsil)le gentleman, Mr. Walter Barwick, of the city of Toronto. If you will permit me, it will take prob- ably three or four minutes, I would like to have the privilege of reading it to the Convention. Mr. J. D. Allan — I think copies have been sent to all delegates. Mr. Robertson — It is not my own statement but that of a responsible gentle- man of this city. President Ames — Mr. Allan says copies have been sent to the delegates, and as your time is just about expiring, I think it would be well not to take up the time of the Conference in reading the letter. Mr. Robertson — I hope this Convention will think very seriously indeed before they pass the resolution which is before us. Mr. Heaton, Goderich — I came here intending to object to the resolution that appears on the paper, because I represent some six or seven prominent English publishers, but I can find no fault with the resolution now before the House. I think the last speaker was under some misapprehension. Mr. Thomson has substi- tuted another resolution for that in the printed programme, and I do not think there is any room for discussion in his resolution. It simply affirms the right of Canada to make laws for itself on this subject. I understand there has been some discussion as to the right of Canada to make its own laws, and that right is dis- puted by the law officers of the Crown. I therefore, on behalf of the publishers, will not make any objection, and will certainly vote for this motion. Mr. Hatheway, St. John — I rajne here also with the idea of speaking against the resolution in the printed programme, but when I saw the amendment in that form I felt it was only right to have the amendment carried if possible unanimously. If we have not the power the amendment will perhapl, if adopted, give us that power. The amendment cannot do any harm. Mr. R. O. Smith, Orillia Board of Trade— I am quite well aware that there is a very wide divergence of opinion upon the question of copyright. I know for years it had been discussed by the wholesale booksellers and by the Dominion Board of Trade. The cause of this is that the interest of the publisher of Canada is entirely different from that of the authors, the binders and printers have a differ- ent idea on the subject of copyrights. It has been discussed in the papers and in the Boards of Trade for years, and these different boards have not yet come to a conclusion as to what is l>est. Each party is fighting for their own interests, and it is a question that affects so many diflerent trades that at a Conference of this kind it woul 1 require hours to get intelligent information on the subject of copy- right. I am quite sure that Mr, Thomson will agree with me that hours and hours have been spent by the wholesale booksellers of Toronto especially, but when the question of the author comes up we find it is a very difficult problem. The brains of the author of this country should be protected as well as the interests of the bookseller. (Hear, hear). Therefore I think it would not be wise in a small Assembly of this kind, without good information, to discuss the points of contro- versy. If I were fully satisfied that there was no law on this subject I would be quite prepared to pass this resolution, but i think we should be very careful in coming to a conclusion upon so important a question when the other bodies who have given a great deal of time in discussing it have not come to a decision upon it. Mr. Perrault, Gaspe — Surely the honorable gentleman does not discuss the possibility of our Government being able to give justice to the authors and to every- body else. Are we reduced to that state of mental incapacity that we have to go to the other side of the Atlantic to get proper legislation on this subject ? Surely we have pride enough, and are able enough, patriotic enough, to do fair justice to everybody, publisher and author. This resolution simply affirms that we have the right to pass legislation of that sort. H3 Mo n F Thomson KC Toronto-Beforethe vote istaken I wouldliketosay a Mr. D. E. 1 HOMsoN, R.,u., 1 o"«"" Zn thia subiect Mr. Robertson is in error word so as to remove a 'n>"PP'^«''«"f °° °^*f^^^^^^ to the ques- as to the extent of this reso ut.on. It/°f ""^'J?*'* of whether we in Canada have of Canadian authors.' (Hear hea ). Is the^e a man m t ^ ^^^^^^ ^^ who is not prepared to accept t^'^V^^ I,XLrorn laws on this subje^ whether we believe we are P'PP?*^"' »° jj the ouWisher and the author. There consider all the interests. »n<=l''d'?«/J°^ °iXrTwn^^^^ has been reference made to the recital being *'»^hdrawn. ana inis ^^ , j ^^g 1 accept the responsibility for that change As a "*"" fj^'^^^'g !^„, J. i did asked to second this resolution, I had not seen it untl^^^^^^^ ^^ not think then, that even if here had been t^met^^^^^^^ the law while discuss anything which *°''>d \«*f '"ji^^HS and I have moved this thinking our right to make any law at all '^^\^"'l°''^'r'^^° as it was prudent for us to it was a ground upon which ^«J°"^„""f_f**(;^;*right to legislate is denied up go, and as far as it was necessary for us »» K°- ,i^"5 "^„' ' "-j persistentlv since fo'this hour, and has been fought so far " Jan^jla is conce d^^P^^^^^^^ 1842 when the legislation was passed ; and t^.«^ ^™f J'°i* ^.1, ^ g in the press tod.. Sir Tames Edgar, afterwards ^P^^Jf^^^ bvThe^ H^^^^ Mills, when t-Kralfihiffw.^^^^^^^^^ ment to legislate on that subject." I say we have. The resolution was carried unanimously. MINERAL. RB80URCBS OF CANADA. ttu^st^wli^rA-lbttUml^^^^^^ Wker.a. C««>. contjdn, v«t »^^,^^^:":^,'^:::ns'7^^^l^i^^r^^^^-'^ '^"''-!r;rw'o^MnX'uS'S{rM^^ ««•« an .xce.. lent market for the products oHhe farm Mdfacto^^^^^ Government subsidies. ^'-'"4;J.5r^h.^S:Sn ';X!^'\^'"^^t^^^o^^<^- >^o.^. ^ granted to ... mineral colonisation railways. ThrouKhoul th. Dommion otCnad.. in th. Yukon T«rri'ot, Bri.gh Col^ambi.^ NobL™ Ontario, Ne. Brn^wick, Nov. Scon. J.^ ^SS"^ ^^'ouZ sSn,iririfrr°4r»o\jK^^^ soective ores. In addit on to our mineral resources there, we nave ^°^ ' ' ' ol th.S.uU St. M,ri. Board otTr.d. to » n..oy of th. Board, ol T..d. of tte »44 Dominion who ably urged and assisted us in obtaining subsidies for the Algoma Central Railway, t)oth from the Province and the Dominion, and the reason I mention that is that our contention in the west and in the north has been that a colonization is an entirely different proposition from building a through railway in competition with some existing railway ; a colonization railway creates business for the existing railways, it creates business for all the interests of Canada. The subsidy which the Dominion granted to that railway in order to pay the interest on it amounts to only some twenty or thirty thousand dollars a year. We pay annually five or six hundred thousand dollars in mail subsidies. What has been the result so far as Canadian trade is concerned ? In 1898 the custom receipts at Sault Ste. Marie were only forty-five thousand dollars ; last year they were $369,000, and this year they will exceed $450,000, and this has resulted from a subsidy which cost this Dominion $20,000 a year. We have obtained from outside of Canada an investment of at least $20,000,000, and the Dominion is receiving, as a direct result of the development in that section, $450,000. I will venture the statement that any mineral colonization railway constructed in that northern country will pay in duty on soft coal amply sufficient to pay the interest on the money to pay the usual subsidy. Secondly, we submit that this is the sure way to build up Canada. We have a pulp mill erected at Sault Ste. Marie, and the result of that has been to induce American and English capitalists to invest their money in similar enterprises at various points throughout northern Ontario and also in Quebec. The magnificent success of this enterprise in Northern Ontario is draw- ing the attention of Canadian and English and American Capitalists to similar enterprises throughout this Dominion. From Winnipeg to Labrador we have a country somewhat similar to what I have described. With an immense amount of capital the timber and mineral resources can be developed successfully. One of the reasons why this resolution has been brought forward is that although the Dominion appropriated last session for an expenditure of some $50,000,000, there was not one cent appropriated for the construction of colonization railways. 1 have much pleasure in moving this resolutioc, and I trust it will have the unanimous support of this Convention. Mr. Burke, Port Arthur — It affords me very nuch pleasure to second this resolution. The reason, as I understand, that this resolution is brought before this Conference is this ; that while we from the wild and woolly west are explorers and exploiters we look upon you as being more or less the advocates of the manufac- turing industries of the Dominion of Canada. Hitherto when we have come east, as we do almost every year, we have received a warm welcome, we have been patted on the back and told to go ahead and you would stand by us. You know as well as we do that if Canada is going to be developed we must have more rail- ways out through the west. You may think we have lots of railways as it is. But although we have many thousands of miles of railways, have the Canadian Pacific Railway running through the western part of Canada, there are many places along that line of railway now, where a free grant homestead cannot be obtained within twenty miles of the Canadian Pacific Railway. We desire to see the manufacturing industries of Canada increased, we desire to see an immense number of farmers and mining men locate in Northern Ontario, and we think you will agree with us it would be well for this Board, representing the public opinion of Canada, to pass some resolution which would show the different parliaments of Canada that you are in favor, I might say, of expansion, and of the extending of our railway system. You may say in looking over this resolution that there is an idea expressed in it that we might get too many railways. We have endeavored to guard against that matter, and we said colonization mineral railways. A colonization railway is a railway run out into what have been wild lands, and when one colonization railroad has been built through a section it is not at all necessary to have another railway run alongside that other for colonization purposes, one fills the bill. Mr. M. C. Ellis, Toronto Board of Trade — I would like to say a word with reference to the resolution before us. Whilst the general spirit is one which com- mends itself to the delegates of this Conference I think some of the statements made therein are a little extravagant to go forth from this Conference of business H5 men and whilst I do not wish to suggest an alteration in the tenor of the resolution. "wouM like to see an alteration in the sentence. " Canada contains vast and vaned mineral resources "-That we all agree to, but I do not like the words, "equal to those of the United States." Mr. McKay, Sault Ste. Marie— Strike that phrase out. Mr. Ellis, Toronto-" Rapid and successful developnient thereof is of ^«r«i- mo«n?rnter^Mo Canada."-! think that might be a debatab e po.nt I w°; ^ f y substantial interest to Canada. Then I think the sentence, "It would bnng to the Dominion thousands of men and millions of capital, and would "e;^^ >° «" f°^ market for the farm and factory," seems to be correct as a genera statement, but it r. Uttle exfratagant. Then Instead of the words, " All '"^e"' ^°'7f *'^° ^^l'^" ways," 1 would say, " whenever the mineral resources are of sufficient importance To warrant the usull subsidies within reasonable limits, with these alterations 1 will S^ery pleased to vote for the resolution, and I think it would carry just as much weight^nd at the same time would not be loaded up with statements which are of Tcfntroversial character, and might be deemed a little extravagant for a business body to pass. Mayor Dyke, Fort WiUiam-I would like to speak a word in reference to this resolution I do not know that I am in hearty accord with the speaker who has jul^sa down. I believe that the statements in this resolution are in U^ most par borne out by the facts of our country, and I do not k .w that it is * good Po «=y for us to tear down anything that will call attention to our J?«?"'«|, "J°/:'"'X; their varieH character or their comparison with the United States or any other nat on ' nk the time has come in'^the history of the development of our country when . o > know it best need not be afraid to assert that our minera resources are v • f are, and that their development, which this resolution looks forwai -vould bring into our country a great deal of capital and a great mZy What are the facts now ? Capitalists of the United States, both manufacturers and particularly explorers ^nd developers of mmes^^ are looking to our country. I know it is the case in the section of the country that I represent ; and I believe this resolution should commend itself to the udgment of the gentlemen here, and that it should pass as it is. However hK going to jeopardize the resolution at all, I would be willing to accept some of the sueeestions of the last speaker. I do not think we should mutilate it, and rnere"yTy we have there mineral resources, it would be a good thmg to devebp S, and ask this should be done as soon as possible. I think the resolution does not go beyond the mark in its statements of what our resources are, or what they are in comparison with those of the United States We have very .niuch larger resources than those who have not studied the question imagine. I have pleasure in supporting the resolution. Mr. McKay, of Sauit Ste. Marie— At the suggestion of Mr. Ellis, and with the consent of my seconder, 1 beg to amend the resolution to read as follows : Wlurtat Canada contains vast and varied mineral resources, J& whereas tfte rapid and suc- cejS development thereof is of substantial interest to Canada, as it woufd create an excellent market for the product of the farm and factory, J?«oZ»«i • That this Conference v»ould respectfully submit that the usual Government subsi- dies both from the Dominion and res'^tive Provinces should be granted to allapproved mineral colonization railways. The resolution was carried as altered by Mr. McKay. TRADE RBLATION8 BETWEEN THE COLONIES. Mr. Catello, La Chambre de Commerce, Montreal— As matters now stand Canada has no right to make what we call a treaty without the consent of the Britfsfa Government. I think matters should be so readjusted «s to give Canada and the other Colonies a right to make treaties between the™«» ^f •, *"'^ the approval of the English Government. I am sure we could do a great deal of trade 146 with the Colonies, and I am sure we would rather trade with them. Therefore I beg to move this resolution : Whtrtas the Empire mast bene6t by a more extensive trade on the part of the Colonies, and the Colonies themselves must derive advantages and compensation by promoting closer relations between them, Bt it rtsolvtd : That this Conference is fully confident that the Imperial Government will favor any preferential treaty which the Colonies may be disposed to make Iwtween themselves. Mr. Perrault, G-ispe — The object of this resolution is to permit us to make arrangements with ct'ict Colonies which will be mutually advantageous in matters of trade. How far the Imperial Government will allow this is of course debatable. I do not think thai under our present constitution it ran be carried out. I know that England always wants to have all the advantages that are granted to other people, and if a Colony gives an advantage to Canada in its market, England will expect to have the same advantage for herself. That is the general principle the Im- perial Government goes by, still as the resolution was prop rt. I would suggest that the mover and seconder would see their way clear to withdraw it. Mr. Catello, Montreal — As I understand it, when we allow Australia or any other Colony a cheaper rate of duty coming to Canada we must give the same preference to every other privileged nation, but what we want is to make an arrangement with the Colonies whereby we can keep the benefits among ourselves. Mr. Watts — We have that right now. Mr. Catello — We have not the right to make a favored nation clause. Mr. Watts — Your resolution refers entirely to the Colonies, and we have the right already ; we have not a right to make a treaty with foreign nations. Mr. Catello — If we hav 'he right, that is a different thing. Mr. Donnelly, Kingston — That is the point I was going to call the attention of the Conference to. I do not wish it to be thought that I am obstructing this resolution in any way, but I submit from what Mr. Watts has said that this is not a resolution, worded as it is, that we can very properly pass. This resolution resolves that this Conference is fully confident that the Imperial Government will do so and so. I submit, with all due respect, that this Conference might urge the Imperial Government to do certain things, but we cannot pass a resolution that we are positive the Imperial Government will favor it. Mr. McFee, Montreal — I was under the impression that we had ample powers to make trade arrangements with other Colonies, and if we had not this power I would suggest a resolution in this form : That this Conference desires that the Im- perial Government shall give to the Colonies the right to enter into preferential trade relations with each other. President Ames — May I be allowed to suggest that as there appears to be some doubt as to the question of fact it would be unwise for us to act in this matter. Another point I would make is this ; is it conceivable at this juncture that the Colonies should make an agreement for a preferential arrangement among them- selves and that the Old Country would disallow it ? If that case is not conceivable 147 my question is whether the motion is not really superfluous and whether it is not better to withdraw it. Mr. Catello— If we have the right, all right ; I was always under the impression that we had no right. The resolution was withdrawn. RAILWAY OOMMI8SIOH Mr. Hugh Blain. Toronto Board of Trade-in the absence of Mr. Guraey it becomes my pleasant duty to move this resolution. 1 thmk there is sufficient just^catio7for^his resolutiL in any body of merchants considering t«d« questions because of the amount of dissatisfaction and discontent which exuits with the railway management. There is, of course, a wide difference between the v»ew8 of the Rail- way Companies and the people, and either the Railway Companies are unr^sonable in the treatment of the ptiblic or else the public are unreasonable m their demands of he Railway Companies. I am inclined, sir. to think that bot^of these conditions exist, and I think there is ample room between these two oPPO«"R, °P'"'°°^, *°i fnteristsfor the establishment of an independant tribunal that wi" b"»f t^ese opposing interests more closely into harmony with each other. ./."Canada as in an othefcountries in the early history of railway enterprises it >>ad gewra Uy teen believed that competition would regulate railway business and keep «'-«€n^ down to reasonable figures. This has been found to be incorrect. The ^<''\'^fy^°^P^^'% have discovered that competition is not in their best interests a°d the system of leasing lines, of pooling receipts, of amalgama..ng companies, and of combining to keep up raies had become the settled policy of the Railway Compan^s We all know that where a combination exists to keep up rates competition becomes impossible, except perhaps the competition to K^" 8<^^f '■^L"' ^^^^^^^^^ is a form of competition which I do not at all "°dfj»l"»v'' ^h "^ i X nex other respects seems to have become a matter of the past. Then, sir, the next form in which people look for protection in this respect is Government ownerA.p. Government ownership of railways has become a popular policy, but I a"^^l">'f to think, sir. that in a body of level headed business men such as compose this Conference the question of (Jovemment ownership of railways would be received ;uh a great deal of doubt and hesitation. Unfortunately o^VT^ini^J^o think time in Government ownership has not been a happy one. 1 am inchntd to th nk th"t many years have to pass by before the position of this young Do™"»°" °* °"" will warrant the State taking over and managing our railway ^"smeM. We may, therefore, dismiss the question for the ?««?"* «'> ^f T"w. J. vYnfe British the question arises as to Government regulation and control. Wisely in the Bnt sh North American Act and also in the subsequent Act by the Dominion House the Government of Canada took the regulation and control mto th«r hands ; hey have now delegated that authority to the Railway Committ^ of the P".^ CounciU and I have no doubt that the Railway Committeee of the Privy Council has the power within certain limitations of regulating and controlhngtfce railway '««= of th^s country. But. sir, the question arises, do they exercise »»iat right ? No doubt tt^e RaXYy Committ'ee o? the Privy Council has been ol service to the people of this country, yet on the whole I think it must be "dmitt^ that i has been a failure, and I think reasonably so; I think the duties of he Minister of Railway^because the Railway Committee of 'he Privy Coun- cil after all must be reduced to the Minister of RaUways-do not allow him time to give these questions the consideration they require. 1 am also, sir, desirous of pointing out that the conditions existing and surrounding the Min- istM of Railways are not in favor of the public. The puohc have no «al iKsrman- ent status before the Railway Committee, and if the Minister of Ra«lw«ys occupies, as I believe he is considered to occupy, a judicial position, he has to decide between these two parties. The great public is "ot represented except in a case of some individual who. during the consideration and discussion oi the special grievance of his own. may be there in the interests of the general public as we . The general public is not permanently and properly represented before that Kail- s '/ ^-i^^^f 148 way Committee of the Privy Council. On the other hand the railway companies have a permanent organization, they have a management that is continuous in its character, they have their best talent continually in touch with the Railway Department, and they are aggressive, and have obtained privilege after privilege in connection with their business in Ottawa, that the public know nothing whatever about. I had occasion about two years ago, when I took up the question of an owner's risk, to visit Ottawa several times, and I had an opportunity of discussiig the matter with the Minister of Railways, and I did not hesitate to point out that his whole department, from beginning to end, had been trained in a railway atmosphere, had been surrounded by railway influence, that they were permeated through with railway interests and railway opinions, and while I admit the Minister may have his own independent opinion and exercise it to the advantage of the people of this country, yet, sir, the Minister is bound to look to his department for his advice and information, and how is it possible under these conditions for a Minister to get that independent information and advice which we think he should be possessed of ? I therefore tliink, sir, we can easily make out a case that the public is not properly represented >>efore the Railway Committee, and the only remedy I can see for this is the establishment of an independent Railway Commission, a commission that will be composed of men capable and thoroughly honest in the discharge of their duties. I trust I need not go into the details of the grievances under which the merchants of this country suffer. That would be too great a question to discuss in the limits at my disposal, but we do know that the merchants and manufacturers of this country are not treated with the fairness and justice they are entitled to. I have, sir, from the very nature and character of my business, which Mr. Hatheway will tell you depends for its very existence upon the railway rates, I have been working on this question for 25 years, struggling with the railway companies to get the trade and commerce of our city put upon a proper basis, and I have an intimate knowledge of these railway companies, and I say now deliberately on the floor of this House that in my opinion this railway transportation question is the largest and most important and most diflicult problem that there is to-day before the peo- ple of Canada. Believing that to be the case, I think it is a fit and proper subject for us to pronounce upon. Not only should the rate question be regulated by some independent body, but there are other questions ; there is, for example, the question of passengers ; there is also the question of crossings the question of safety appli- ances, and other important questions that I think should be subject to regulation, the issue of stock and bonding indebtedness. I had occasion when President of the Board of Trade to look into this question, and I did so pretty care- fully. I took the Grand Trunk Railway as my special railway, and I found that the district of Toronto was the only paying district in the whole Grand Trunk Railway system, that we were paying in this district not only deficits created by this railway company in the United States, but w^re expected also to pay a handsome dividend upon this capital, and in locking up the capital I found that the capitalization of the Grand Trunk Railway was $105,000 a mile ; and I ask you, gentlemen, whether the people of this country can be expected to pay taxes to the extent of paying interest upon a capitalization of that kind. $40,000 or $50,000 a mile is estimated to be a sufficient sum to build and properly equip a modern rail- way, and yet, sir, we are expected to pay interest upon a capitalization — largely composed of water — of this enormous sum. If it were not so late in the session of this Conference, and if our time were not so short, I would like to go further into this question, because it has been a hobby of mine for a great many years, but with these remarks I beg to move the adoption of the Toronto Board's resolution : Riiolvid ; That this Conference desires to place itself on record as holding the opinion that a properly constituted Railway Commission should '>e created, with power necessary to deal with any questions affecting the relations of all common carriers to the people. Mr. Thom, Montreal — I do not think it is necessary to enlarge very much on what M<-. Blain has said. He seems to have covered the ground so fiilly thrt he has left mc but very little to add. Like himself I have had a great deal f 'ixperience in trs.ii&portation matters, and I have learned to my cost the iniquity of the getting 149 together of the railway companies. I have found many instances where traffic has been brought past my door and sent on to other ports— I am speaking as a steamship man— and naturally I have objected to seeing trade gomg past my door. There cannot be any doubt of the desirability of having some commis- sion that would regulate the rates throughout Canada. If my memory serves me right, before the establishment of the C.P.R. through Ontario I think we had fair rates from the Grand Trunk, but after the opening of the C.P.R. wherever those roads competed or crossed the rates were advanced. They seem to have got to- gether afterwards and advanced rates all through Ontario. So far as Manitoba is concerned, perhaps some of the gentlemen from there can give us their views on the matter, but I have not felt they have been rightly treated. I may go further, I do not think either of our railway companies have been loyal to Canada; I feel they have sent trade to the American por*s that should have goiie to Canadian ports. Consequently I feel the desirabiht if it is at all possible, of ha^^ng some commission that can regulate the rates of treight throughout Ontario and Canada. I second the resolution. Mr. F. H. Hayhurst, Gait— We have spent a great deal on our railways in Canada. We have, in round numbers, subsidized railways in Canada to the extent of $228,000,000, but, unfortunately, in subsidizing those railways— railways which in their inception were calculated to be a benefit to this country— we have, to quite an extent, created for ourselves a master that seems to have no regard for the people for whom the railways were created. We have very l^gely here to-day a company of manufacturers, merchants, transporters, but after all where the shoe pinches the hardest is at the foundation of trade ; there is no class of men to-day who are suffering so much as the farming community in this Province on account of unjust discrimination. The farmer has to compete against the markets of the world, and the discrimination he has to submit to is a very important factor in deciding whether or not he is prosperous. I care not what legislation we have, unless ths farmers of Canada are prosperous the whole community will not be prosperous. How essential, therefore, is it that the farmers should not be discriminated against, but that they should have oppor- tunity not only to work out their own salvation but the prosperity of this country. I have much pleasure in supporting this resolution. The resolution was carried. SHIPBUILDING IN CANADA. Mr. Thomas Donnelly, Kingston— I submit there is no question that has come before this Conference since it opened its deliberations that is of more importance to the people of Canada than the one we have arrived at. Our resolu- tions from Kingston have been so successful that I hope tne Conference will adopt this unanimously without very much discussion. Nearly all the large questions passed by this House are related to this matter of cheapening transportation and assisting shipbuilding interests ; the mail service, imports and exports, fast steam- ship service— they all come down to be interested in this question. Governments past and present have done a great deal for transportation routes between the great lakes and the seaboard ; they have done a great deal for water transportation routes, there is nothing in this resolution but praise for what they have done, and all we ask in this resolution is that they continue the good work, Governments like to know whether the people of this country are in favor of the large questions of this kind that are continually coming before us, and this will show to the Government of this coun- try, which is doing so much for the transportation routes, that we are in favor of them continuing in the future what they have so ablv done in the past. The Government of this country built the Soo Canal, the Welland Canal, the St. Lawrence Canals, and they are all very fine indeed, but I submit that the gentlemen in the West who have given us so mujh of their attention here are very much interested in this question at the present time, for the reason that the C.P.R. brings this gram down to Port Arthur and Fort William, and although they have a line continuing to the Soo yet I think it goes without saying that it is much cheaper for even them to 11 150 carry their grain by short water route to Georgian Bay or some other portion, so that they will there connect with a shorter line to Montreal. That question has lately come up in connection with improvements from North Bay, and it goes without saying that even to that road this matter is of very great importance. Then the Canadian Northern brings its grain to Port Arthur and puts it into an elevator. They have no connection further eastward, and must depend for some considerable time to come on the transportation route by water over at least part of the journey to the sea-coast ; and the Canada Atlantia Railway must receive a supply from the western water transportation route to knep that railway route engaged in transporting the commerce of our great west to the sea, so you see that the western men are very much interested in this, and we as Canadians are very much interested indeed, especially down in the district I come from I grant you, although Montreal, Quebec, Halifax, St. John and other places in ihe east are very much inte- rested in this question of cheap transportation. It is a well known fact that last year a very wealthy corporation in the U. S. put on a line of steamships to run between the western depots from the head of Lake Superior, Lake Michigan to cross the salt water to Great Britain. I had the honor to be quoted very often in the press with regard to this matter when it was in its infancy, I submitted then that never would there be a time in the history of the St. Lawrence river when grain would be carried from Lake Superior or Lake Michigan ports across to Great Britain ; that it would never pay, that the conditions were against it. and it would nevei be a successful undertaking. I am sorry to say that after this company losing a great deal of money, after getting their ships knocked up very badly, so that underwriters rffused to take them any further, they have come back to what is the proper way of transporting the grain, namely, by the railroads or the lake carriers and then by the large steamships across the Atlantic, because it was very plain to anyone interested in this question that the steamships crossing the Atlantic carrying 15,000 to 18,000 tons had the largest end of the journey to carry the grain, and consequently the smaller ones could not compete with them. Our Canadian marine is very much hampered indeed with regard to coasting privileges, we only have our own, and the United States will not give us any of theirs, and, conse- quently, the latter part of my resolution asks that we give our cordial support to Government assistance to the shipbuilding industries of this country, believing sucli help is much needed, and would be of benefit to the country at large. We all know in Canada — and we are proud of it — that we now have our coal, our own steel industries, and in a very short time we will be able to compete with the Motherland in building steamships. This question has come before the Dominion Government and it is now having their con- sideration. I do not in this resolution say in what way this is to be granted ; I leave that to the Dominion Government to handle it themselves. Then, gentlemen, if you want to buy a coat and bring it into Canada you have to pay duty on it, and the same with respect to a buggy, but you can buy all the ships you like and bring them into Canada, and the Dominion Government cannot collect a cent's duty on them. That is a broad statement to make when there is a clause in the Customs tarifif, but we all know that under the recent decision of Judge Bur- bidge that which I have stated is the fact. It is twenty years ago since the late Honorable George Kirkpatrick came to me to ask me how it would be possible, and what steps he would have to take to bring in a large steamship worth $230,000 that was built in Bay City, Michigan. I told Mr. Kirkpatrick then, " There is no law that will make you pay anything." He said, " I am a Member of Parliament, and I take issue." 1 said, " You can bring in all the boats you like." Why ? Because they did not ask for Canadian register, they asked for British register ; we have no such thing as registered shipping in Canada ; consequently that ship was brought in without any duty. I brought in a ship myself ; the Richelieu Navigation Com- pany brought in two of their largest steamers, the Columbia and Carolina, and never paid a cent of duty, and since that there have been a large number of ships brought in. It is a bad state of affairs when you can bring in ships free of duty when we build them in this country, and build them just as well as they can in the country to the south of us. A man can purchase a ship in the United States, 15' and take it down to Newfoundland, and Ro to the Customs official there and say, " I want under the free trade rules of Great Britain free entry of my ship that was built in the United States to an Imperial port," and under the free trade ruldt of Great Britain the boat is turned over in one half-hour, and that boat corner out of St. John's, Newfoundland— an English ship, with the English flag flying over her, and she comes right up to thf niand waters of Canada, and says, " I want ail the rights and privileges of a British ship in Colonial waters." I beg to move this ^ resolution : That this Conference of Boardt of Trade of the Dominion beliavei that in the intereett of the whole Dominion, and to leMen thecoit of transportation between the Great LakM and the seaboard, the canals between Montreal and Lake Erie, and the channel between Montreal and the seaboard, shonld be deepened, and we would urge the Government to continue their work without deUy ; and would alsogive our cordi^ support to Govern- ment asssistance to the shipbuilding industries of this country, believing that such help is much needed, snd would be of benefit to the country at large. Mr. Gaskin, Kingston— In seconding this resolution I would say it refers to the enlargement of the canals. Boats that come through the canals at the present time have a capacity of about 65,000 bushels ; the boats tb?t go to BufTalo carry 225,000. I claim if the canals are enlarged so as to allow the boats that carry 225,000 bushels to go down that the time has arrived when we can carry gram from Fort William to Montreal for 2J cents a bushel. We have been talking here two or three days as to railroad and steamship transportation. I wish to say here there are two ways of carrying the commerce of this country, one by boat and one by railway. If you assist one you should assist the other. The money the Govern- ment expends belongs to the people, the boat owners are part of those people. I think it is unfair to go to work and give the money of the boat owners to the rail- roads to kill the boat owners. The Government gives a bonus to the railroads and as a rule the municipalities give bonuses, and the result is that the promoters have the road for nothing. If the Government goes to work and does what is suggested in this resolution and enlarges the canals, so that we can bring stuff from Fort William to Montreal at two and a half cents a bushel it would be of great advantage. Mr. Thompson, North Sydney— I think this shipbuilding question is too large for the Government to grapple with. It is a subject that is engaging the attention of the maritime nations, and in order to grapple with it successfully they have appointed commissions to take evidence and make recommendations ; and 1 would suggest in connection with this resolution that this Board appoint a Committee, or ask the Government to appoint a Commission to look into this matter. A large ship- builder at Newcastle wrote to me and asked me to press the matter at Ottawa. He was prepared to invest a quarter of a million in shipbuilding in Canada, but the Hanna Shipping Bill being before Congress I thought it was not wise to take it up at that time. We want to know how much bounty we require to build ships and successfully compete with English and German builders. Mr. McFee, Montreal— I do not wish to prolong the discussion here to-day, but we have in one resolution two very important subjects. We have shipbuilding and the deepening of our waterways. I think it would be advisable to make two resolutions instead of one. In regard to the deepening of the canals I think we are suffering more to-day from the fact that the largest lake earners on the upper lakes are unable to reach Kingston ; the Welland Caual is too small and the locks aie too short to admit the large upper lakes boats to pass through, and m order to compete it is necessary that these larger sized boats should pass down into Lake Ontario. 1 understand vessels are now being built at CoUingwood that cannot pass down the Welland Caniii, and the Welland Canal to be of any advantage to us at the present time to admit of these large carriers would require to be deepened and enlarged, I mean by enlargement, widened and the locks lengthened. I do not think we will derive very much benefit from the Welland Canal unless this is done. Mr. Donnelly, Kingston— I will put that in a special resolution if Mr. McFee wishes : I did not wish to burden the Government with too much matter. Mr. McFee— We sent a petition to the Government within the last two tion : isa months dealing very fully with shipbuilding in Canada. We went to the extent of recommending that a bonus of two dollars a ton per annum for five years be granted to vessels that are built in Canada, and we thought a recommendation of that kind would have some weight with the Government. I may say we are pretty much in line with the Marine Association's request — they ask for a subsidy a little different from ours, but I think in the main they will arrive at about the same result ; in other words, the Marine Association has the support of the Montreal Board of Trade in their request that they should receive ample bonuses by the Government to put this industry on a proper footing, so that they may compete with the marine carriers on the Great Lakes. While I am on my feet 1 may say we did not deal with the shipbuilding on the Atlantic in our resolution, but we erred in that we should have dealt with the whole question of shipbuilding. We should have dealt with the trade between Montreal and the Atlantic ports »•» well as on the Great Lakes. The resolution was carried unanimously. CANADIAN INSOLVENCY LAW. Mr. Hsaton, Goderich — I beg to move the Goderich Board of Trade resolu- Whtriai Canadian trade is lerioasly handicapped by the differences of the provision! of the law in the several Provinces applying to assignments for benefits of creditors by insol- vent debtors, and the uncertainty as to the aecnrity offered in business transactions by the absence of an insolvency law in the Dominion, And wlurtat it is important that the Dominion Parliament should enact an insolvency law at the earliest possible date, whereby that confidence which is necessary for the promotion of commerce between the different Provinces and with the outside world would be established. I will not take up your time in giving ^ou a speech on the present state of the law, but I would simply remind you that this is a question which properly comes within the jurisdiction of the Dominion Parliament under the British North America Act. We had an Act in i86g, we had an Act in 1875, which was repealed in 1880, not because it was undesirable to have a Domi^^on Law, but because that Act did not meet with the requirements of the country. Since that date the matter has been left with the Provinces to deal with. The consequence has been considerable con- fusion ; every Province legislating to meet its own particular wants. The ques- tion was asked me the other day, " Why not leave things alone, what is the need of the law and who is there that wants any change ?' I will not take up your time in giving you all the reasons why a law is wanted, I will simply meiition a few of them. W»' have at present no law to compel insolvent debtors to hand over their estate for the benefit of their creditors. Any step of that kind has to be entirely voluntary. There is no power to provide for the discharge of a debtor, nor to punish a debtor in the matter of discharge by penalties if there is any fraud or dishonorable transaction on his part. Any person can be appointed as assignee without giving security. We have had an example in this city within the last few years being charged with an important estate going off with the funds of the estate. There have been several cases of that kind in the Province of Quebec. Where there is no assignment made the creditors have to be paid in the order in which their executions come in to the hands of the Sheriff; there is one exception to that in the Ontario Act, called the Creditors' ReUef Act. Traders can order goods from foreign houses. These goods can be shipped over here and the goods can be assigned to somebody and in the meantime he makes an assignment for the general benefit of his creditors and gets the money on his goods, and those goods are absolutely lost to the foreign trader by chattel mortgage. The creditors must pay also for the investigation of fraud. It is a hard thing that the creditor should be compelled to act for the benefit of the country at large, and expend from their dividends funds which should be properly spent by the Government of the country. Then there is power on the part of the Government to compel traders to keep proper books, and it is open to traders to cover up all kinds of fraud by seeking to keep their books. There are many other '53 reatOM why we ihould have an Iniolvency Law. It has been asked who wants a change ? SxviKAL Dblecates— Everybody. Ma. Hbaton— If there i» not a dissentient voice I will not take up your time further. Ma. Gborcb E. Drummond— As a matter of form I have very much pleasure ip seconding the Goderich resolution. The Montreal Board of Trade has petitioned for just such a law as this. Ma. RussBLL, Winnipeg— I wish to move an amendment to this resolution that is placed before you, not that we are cA in favor of an Insolvency Act, but we want an Insolvency Act to act equitably. We want it so that the estate shall be handled for the benefit of the creditors and at the lowest minimum of cost. Rttolvid : That the Dominion GovamoMnt b« raquMtad to aneinbl* on* or more of the com- mercial repneentativce of the varioai province* and the territorte*. in Ottawa, for th* purpo** cf as*lttlng in framin* an act having for iti bail* th* control and managMncnt of Insolvent estate* by th* lntere*t*d crwlitort, with th* legal exprni*** rwliic*d to a minimum. That is the position we take in the West. We have an Assignment Act which operates very satisfactorily. The estates are handled very reasonably and expediti- ously and with the minimum of cost. Our circumstances differ from your circum- stances here. We have greater distances, and as a general thing smaller estates, and to undertake the services and applications in a great many of the smaller estates would be simply to squander the estate to the loss of the creditor and also without any benefit to the debtor. Our insolvency law works well. Mr. Bell, Winnipeg — I have had considerable experience in the efforts to secure Dominion Insolvency legislation during the last few years, and I can say just in a few words the reason there has not been greater pressure from all over the Dominion placed upon the Government to get Dominion Insolvency legislation is that the application came from one or two sections of the country, and the general Boards of Tiade of this country ; and the varying necessities and needs of Canada from Halifax to ^'ictoria were not consulted. There is no objection, never has been any. on the part of the Manitoba wholesale trade to a Dominion Insolvency law. The nutshell of the difficulty has been this, that the legislation prepared by the Toronto and Montreal Boartis of Trade, while probably admirably suited to the existing conditions here, did not at ail suit the sparsely settled districts of the North West, where we have no Court ITo-ise as close as you have, and Arhere difficulties of climate and other considerations block our action. We found the machinery provided in your draft Act would not meet our requirements. There cannot possi bly be any objection to having representatives meet together at Ottawa to consider the matter. It seems to me our necessities are now becoming so much in common that there would be no difficulty in agreeing together on some provision that will suit from ocean to ocean. As a matter of fact this demand for Insolvency legisla- tion comes more from Europe- than inter- Provincially. We recognize that the English people have a feeling of distrust and fear to trade in Canada, where they fir 1 seven or eight different insolvency laws in operation. We want to get rid of that. We can give way on many points if you can give way on some, or try to provide for little matters which are life and death to us. Mr. Hugh Blain, Toronto— I rise to take exception to the reflection on the Boards of the East. As Chairman of the Toronto Board of Trade Committee that worked very earnestly for two years on the preparation of an Insolvency Bill, I am rather disappointed with our friends from the West, who did not join us volun- tarily. They should have comi forward and given us their cordial assistance :n getting such a law on our Statdte Books as would suit them in the West, i may say this also, they will always find the people of Central Canada ready to endeavor to meet their views. We tried to accommodate ourselves to the views of the whole of Canada, and we would be very glad to co-operate with all sections of the Dominion in the preparation of an Act suitable to the whole of Canada. «54 Mk. Duuoulin, Quebec — Several atten' ; ; j have t> eu m, de fvefore Parliament to produce an Iniotvency Law, and for one r- .1 or anot : u t^ ey h e failed. I think one point which would be of great advanta^^ v.^ulo ° e lo render the leaping of books compulsory. When a man wishes to d riatuj 1 creditors he ceases to keep books or keeps them in such a way as to re ier hi.' t;iii>^ actions quite unintelli- gible. I think if traders were compelled to keep boiik^ • uld a; oncc receive at least seventy-five per ce. t. of the benefit ihat we receu - from an Insolvency Law. I would therefore move this as a rider to the Goderich resolution : And mktrtat experience has sbowu that a grea' number of fnuids arc ;«fpetrmi)-'J by persons en|i>Ked In rommercul pursuili, Wktrtai lucb frauds are greatly facilitated by the fact tbat certain traders do not keep ImjoIu ot accounts, Whtrtas the existing Uws of Canada do not mslie it obligatory upon traders to keep boolis of juxounts, Bt it ftsolvtd : That this Conference is of opinion that Article }t^) of the Criminal Ccxie of Canada sbonid be amended by adding thereto, after the words ' or any of tbem " in the third line, the following words : " Fails or neglects to lieep satisfictory boolis of accounts " Making Article 369 read as follows : "Everyone is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to 10 years' imprisonment, who with intent to defraud his creditors or any of them, falls or neglects to keep satisfactory t)ooks of accounts, destroys, alters, mutilates or fabifies any of his books, papers, writings or securities, or makes or is privy to the making of any false or fraudulent entry in any book of accounts or other documents." Mr. Perrault, Gaspe — We have studied that question vty seriously in the Chambers of Commerce, Montreal, and we have found in many instances where a man was preparing for a profitable transaction he simply left his bookh for a year or two and then failed, and when the rredtturs came to look over his affairs they were at a loss to know where the money had gone. Mr. Hugh Blain, Toronto— That is a detail of the Act. Mr. Perrault, Gaspe— That is a serious detail ; and our people are of the opinion that unless commercial men keep books it is no use trading with them. We have houses there that deal in groceries and they say it is really distressing the way money is being lost in this manner. In France it is an indictable offence. You have to present your books there and every page is officially marked, not a page can be taken out. The party has to keep his books in a thorough manner ami if he does fail the creditor can see all the books. If you do not keep any books at 1 you are perfectly free to rob different people. President Amf.s— I would like to make a suggestion from your residert, This Conference started with 134 registered delegates and our round nui bers have now come down to about 34. The question of a quorum was perhaps - ? looked, but I think that if a quorum had been agreed or t would not have l)een ip^,^ than forty or fifty. There is before the House a mai solution, an amend nent and an amendment to the amendment, and if the motions cannot be agreed ot. ra tically unanimously I think it would be a good thing not to press them. Mr. Heaton — I do not think there is any divi<;1on of opinion on im.-, ^solution and I do not think there would have been any division if the whole Conicrence had been here. It is a pity that an opportunity should be lost to bring tf before - notice of the public. It is one of those questions that has been lyin die, a should be given prominence at this time. There is no difference of opir n betwc us, but it is only a question as to the form of the resolution. Mr. Dumoulin withdrew his amendment to the amendment. Mr. Heaton said he would add the amendment n^oved by Mr, Rus ell t 'He main resolution. This was agreed to and the Conference carried the mam re u- tion unanimously as follows : — Whereas trade is seriously handicapped by the differences of the rovisions of the law in tu^ different provinces applying to assignments for the benefi- of creditors by insolvent debtors, and the uncertainty as to the security offered in business transactions by t« abseiice of an Insolvency Law in the Dominion ; and whereas it is i^- nortanl that M Dominion Parliament should enact an Insolvency Law at the earli- ;ible date. ibikI with thaouisiie would Rli^4v^^^ : " fial'lhe Dominion ■ .overnroent i* reqoH- rapT .isntMivM of the vu >u( provinces tod t! poMiif »»iistla(in (rami an Act having (or ioiolvant ntatM by the i ^raited cractiton wii mnm. ■55 r which I* m.> twry (o; he p'^motion ol commerca batwMti lb* ««« Utb«d, ■i lo a»i*mble vtoe or mora cominercUl lerriiori*"' ly lo Ottawa, for Ihi- pur- Isiati ihr introl and managanr-nt o( •~r Itf^a' i^anaaa n ,^ lo a mloi- TRAMBPORTA 'lOM A TD OOLONIZ TION 'AilliBiJ, rii «nd carried .ed the ). wing solution, which s seconded Mr. Dyke, For by Mr. D. F. Burk- Rtsolvd : That t ^ quealion if «porui \, demaodt i> id thooM h*»a, the unilad atlanlion of tha Boaiviarf Trad€ thr. u,sli.nn " Dominion, fhal Iha Confaraoca of the Boartji of Trade of the Dom nion shou ni ka strong repratantatlon to tha ProvinHM and Doir nion Goveromeiu!. to aid m.^ing our transportation (acilitias aquit to tha rK>idiy increasing onolaticn and arrowing ludustrias of our country. And wouU thenrtore %udns(iy racomme- -. first, additional railway facilities; sec> id. deeper waterways, 1 r ■' < igalion, .deH harbor facilities and increuad shlppn, 'onnaje Ritolviid further Ih lext to tran attention f the world, w, ^ a:- a most opportune tlma when vigorc efif should be put forth lo ol urect all desirable emigrants lo our Domini IMPROVBMBNT OF 0/ ^ADIAN PORTS. Trade, moved the St. j( hn Mb. < ik.Kr.E KuBEKT ,on, St. John Boar^. of Trad 88oiui:itm, aa kjiiows : )ping 1 ,our'-es of Canada have randarad the questioi rtance to tht suture prosperity of the Dominion and irm of thi«i question it is essential fromanat! ! - lould I tM utmost extent possible be cart ^ thn (? ,ut to attend the coming Conference in London. Mr. Jarvis, St. John — I beg to second this resolution. We all know how our ports are discriminated against in the matter of Marine Insurance rates, not only the St. Lawrence ports but also the ports of the Maritime Provinces. The resolution was carried. Mr. Perrault, Gaspe, moved, seconded by Mr. McFee, Montreal : That the Council of the Toronto Board of Trade, with power to add to their numbers, be a committee to present to the proper authorities the several resolutions adopted by this Conference. Carried. Mr. John Russell, President of the Winnipeg Board of Trade — I wish to say a few words, and I shall cut my remarks very short. It is said brevity is the soul of wit, and I am going to be the wittiest man here to-day. I wish to move a vote of thauks to the President, the Chairman of the Management Committee, the Management Committee, Mr. Christie, aid the Secretary. We all appreciate heartily and most sincerely alt you have done for our entertainment, and the opportunities afforded us of meeting together and discussing these questions. There is nothing like getting acquainted, there is nothing like the Provinces getting acquainted with one another, there is nothing like the mingling of ideas from the Atlr.ntic to the Pacific. I think the ideas of nearly every member here present have been changed somewhat, if not changed to a great extent, by this Conference, and the information we have gained of the various conditions in the various Pro- vinces. I therefore take great pleasure in moving this vote of thanks. Mr. Jarvis, President St. John Board of Trade — I hope you will allow me to second this motion which has been made by my friend from Winnipeg, and in doing so to say how much we, from the Maritime Provinces, in common with all 157 those who have attended this Conference, feel that we are indebted /o /J"" /'"j; denToTthe Toronto Board of Trade, who has acted also as P'^««>«*rf °^ »J'|„^,^ f«ence. for the admirable manner in which our proceedings have *««" "^ducted. There is iust this one regret, and that is that through the P'?«ident of the Board of Tfad^Xg the position of Chairman, we have been deprived <>;/»»« "»»*"" whkh would have meant to us in the course "J P'^^r^lSR^^^Jif'^'^^k''^^^^ found so valuable on the one occasion in which he allowed h>niMlf to speak. I wish The resolution was carried by a standing vote and amid hearty applause. . more, and then later on of a great many. The Toronto ^^'i/. .^^f ••J \^^? Tdfi^trw^rsfttnin^^^^^^ S^ sSrng over thost questions, you were all considering your own Jture and it k only^ he present condition of akirs generally ^^at has p«:mitted the holdin^^^^^ L successful a Conference. So far as my feeble conduct m the chair « concerned. ^ whTch you have been so kind as to allude, I am conscious of °°t having fil»d the i^Sn as well as it shou'd have been filled. At the last I made a mistake of ffS you we?e all as tired as I was. and found afterwards that you seemed only to have^warmXpto the question, and you developed a burst of/P«:d «" ^^J' hotnestrrtch which I might have expected, but which did not, and which shows wh^t VhorouKhbrtds you are. So far as my conduct in the chair is concerned, it TemLedTe of t W^^^ which I suggeste'd to my wife to put on my tombstone when the proper time should arrive ; it consists of two lines. He did the best he could, 'Vhore ignorance it bliss 'tis folly to be wise. M» 1 D Allan— 1 am sure it wonld be less than human if we did not appre- • . it.L«Wndl words sDoken with regard to the humble efforts made to serve vou quTe al^^^^^^^ Te remarks mlde by the President ; the obligation is Tour si^e fo ha'v'e received such a body of -"''"er^ClTtS/'rrrhas'bie; remotest parts of the Dominion. 1 want to say this, though the work has been .rZous 1 think every member of every Committee of the Toronto Board of Trade reS fha. we Tre Sg sot«ething^for the commercial life of this country when '58 we undertook the work, and it was our enthusiasm that helped carry it out to what with your aid has been so successful a conclusion. We have in the past corres- ponded with each other, and have known each other chiefly through the medium of pen and ink. Now, when we look at a communication we have a personality to place behind that communication ; from this time forward with every resolution that will come from every Board of Trade that has been represented here we will say, " There is our friend so-and-so, who lent such valuable aid at our Conference." I thank you, gentlemen, for the kindly way in which you have treated us in acknowledging what little efforts we have put forth, an ' I hope that in the future you will realize that wherever the commercial prosperity of this Dominion is concerned you will count upon the hearty co-operation of the Toronto Board of Trade. (Applause). The Convention closed with "God save the King" and with three cheers for the Toronto Board of Trade. R; THE BANQUET On the evening of the 5th June a Complimentary Banquet was tendered to the delegates in the Horticultural Pavilion, Allan Gardens. Seated at the tables on the platform were Mr. A. E. Ames, Hon. J. I. Tarte, Hon. Wm. Mulock, Hon. Wm. Paterson, Hon. Geo. A. Cox, lion. Geo. W. Ross, 'udge Morison of Newfoundland, Hon. J. R. Stratton, Hon. John Drydcn, Hon. Uchard Harcourt, Mayor Howland, J. D. Allan, George Robertson, St. John, N.B., Robert Munro, T. F. Ellis, Wm. Briggs, Jas. L. Hughes, John Coates, Ottawa, W. K. McNaught, Wm. Mackenzie; while the delegates, so'.ie 160 in number, representing 65 Boards of Trade throughout the Dominion, occupied seats in the body of the hall. The decorations were exceedingly beautiful, the color scheme being in blue, white and light green. The pillars were all swathed in drapery of these colors, while a canopy extended towards the centre of the hall and up to the roof. The British flag was of course in evidence, flags being hung all around on the main floor under the galleries. Flowers and plants from Dunlop's decorated the tables and faced the galleries, while the platform, on which were the tables of honor, was almost covered with palms and flowering plants. Over the table of honor was suspended a white dove, emblematic of the peace that now reigns throughout His Majesty's dominions, while in the rear was a huge maple leaf made of ferns on a background of white. The scene was altogether a very animated one, the galleries being filled with ladies and their escorts. During dinner the band of the 48th Highlanders rendered a good programme. One piece that took particularly with the guests was the " Coronation March," which was specially arranged for His Majesty's coronation. During the evening, too, the band and a male chorus gave a number of enjoyable selections, including a fantasia on the airs of the British Empire, the " Maple Leaf" and " La Belle Canadienne." The menu card was a handsome piece of work, plain white with gold lettering, with the seal of the Board of Trade in chocolate and gold. Mr. a. E. Ames, in proposing the toast of " The King,' said that he hoped it would be honored at banquets throughout the British Empire for many years to come. The toast was received w^th great warmth. Just as he rose to propose the second toast Hon. Geo. W. Ross entered the hall, and the audience gave him a rousing cheer. Mr. Ames threw out a strong hint that the rules in force at the Conference restricting the length of speeches 159 should be observed at the banquet He said the Toronto f°ar^/J Jrf e,^'^ ffiyhonored. Coujled^witb the toast were the naa,es of Hon. J. Israel Parte. Hon. Wm. Mulock, and Judge Monson. of N wfoundland. "'■'^.'w. will h...iC h. coMmued. •• C.pad»a .nd Brkah, I hop., m 1 hope, will be ready. (Cheers). ,A°?.<=°"P7*|,^' „ ^e „ust have a Canadian policy on land and °V^*Va£SDeople hive contributed to the tune of fioo.- at the present time. The Canadian peopie nave i-uui , j^ ^^ must have a Canadian tannvve certain countries; it suits England; 'n'otheT ^=;°"he";"tSfe sy^m 1^^^^^^^ (S::. Trgi^e?- an cTee^ ^^\^7vSri^en?h"a%rveTS^°m^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^11 understand : 'Charite bien ordonne. commence par soi-mftme -that chanty well ordained begins with itself." Thev must fight their opponents with their own weapons. He couW notunder- went on. He did not care, so 'ong »» rAnolause and lauehter.) Business is busi- °^;^l^^!'^"^Ji:^yVi:prI^^nt th'em." Canadians musthavea tanff to suit i6o themselves, Mr. Tarte went on. If 35 per cent, was not enough — speaking for himself alone — he would have no hesitation in raising it to 30 per cent, or 40 per cent. " I don't care " he said, amid the laughter of the audience. "The Conference had discussed some very important questions," Mr. Tarte went on. " They had discussed the relations of the Empire and the Colonies. He was a Minister for the time being, and his lips to seme extent were sealed. But free trade within the Emp^ire was a nice thing on paper ; if their manufacturers were exposed to free competition from the Motherland, perha;.s they would not like it." Mr. Tarte referred to the Conference and to its value in bringing Canadians, French and English and Irish, together. The more the members of this British community met together the better for all. Speaking for his race, he could say he was proud of belonging to the British Empire. The King would be crowned in a few days and Canada would be repre- sented. There was another race belonging to the Empire which he would like to see represented there, and that was our new fellow-citizens of South Africa. He would extend to Delarey and Botha an invitation. (Applause). He had no doubt they world be jood and loyai citizens of the King. Let them, said Mr. Tarte, go to the Coronation as loyally as we will go ourselves. They fought bravely and we all admire them. They are coming into the British Empire in the same way as our ancestors came in. " My father was a rebel," said Mr. Tarte ; " I am a British Minister. (Applause). Yes, and I am a loyal British Minister." (Applause). Mr. Tarte said he would make this prophecy, that the generous terms made by the Imperial Government to the Boers would make them loyal British citizens within a short time. We should welcome them with both hands. The British Empire meant peace within its limits, tolerance, civil and religious liberty. (Applause). Alluding to the Colonial Conference at London, Hon. Mr. Tarte said that Canada would be represented there by Sir Wilfrid Laurier and other of his col- leagues, and he anticipated a great deal cf good to come out of it. The tim* was not far away when this and other Colonies would play a larger part in the destinies of the Empire. We were growing bigger and bigger, and h»j considered that the next census would show Canada to have a population of 10,000,000. While it was fine to be subjects of the British Empire, for his part he would like to be a citizen in the truest sense of the word. (Applause.) He felt the Empire was one of the niightiest that ever existed, and they should be proud to belong to it. He con- sidered that the French -Canadians should have no other ambition than to remain within the British Empire. Hon. Mr. Tarte congratulated the delegates upon the success of the Confer- ence, and referred generally to the satisfactory growth of the country. Toronto, too, in spite of its errors, was a great city. He liked Toronto, and one of those days would settle within its boundaries and be elected as one of its representatives. (Laughter and applause.) The city of Montreal was also grow- ing very rapidly, and the Mayor had told him a few days ago that during the year 50,000 souls would be added to its population. Of course there was a great French population there. (Renewed laughter.) He concluded by expressing keen appre- ciation of the warmth ot the welcome extended to him, and the kindly references to the French-speaking portions of the community. Mr. Tarte was loudly applauded when he sat down. THB P08TMA8TBR-0BNBRAL. Hon. William Mu lock, who was received with loud applause, expressed first his appreciation of the invitation he had received, and congratulated the Conference upon the great success that had attended their deliberations. He had observed that the Cofifereaee, in a limited time, had shown a spirit of despatch and celerity in deal- ir«- with the questions submitted hat contrasted favorably with Pariiamentary pro- cedure. The Conference had dealt with questions of momentous importance, and i6i running through the discussions was > «"i;;a,tt«tf ^^^^^^^^ desire for the promotion of Impenal "^.^3'"' -.^^^^^^ expressed in make for Imperial unity, ./^.s gave add tionalje.ghtto^^^^^ ^^^ the resolutions. He could only allude *° X^ '?!Xnce of the many questions Canada had a rigni lo e i« ^,^^. .Uere was a feeling that Canada might at At one time, continued Mr. ^ulock. there was a e » ,utJon in senti- some time cut loose from the •Jd^r'TBrSn to Sy wasthat the day of sepa- ment since then, and the °P'"'°° 'f .^"*' ^'feveSs i/sou Africa had testi&d ration must never come. < Applause) Recent eve^s in ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^ to the worid that in ner hour of °.««^«1„^^^4' f 'u**" teRritV and honor of the British no sacrifice too great for the '""^"^^"^""^^n^'^SVad left the Empire more S^in LVoSe.^^U^^;^rf^lTn"rI.o'^^«^^^^^ -ong the nations of the brave and a gallant people, »°f».^^7„ ^"d%rnermore than they had ^^^^ They had lost their flag, it was true, ^uttl^^ey had gained mwe j /^^^^^ ji,^i, old would have more o freedom ^"«l '"'PP °f | ^Jer enemi^o^ into the institutions. This blessing «°"ljj°"\"\i°'j Jf /ace" ,^ cl^ had at one time loyal British "t.zens of to-morrow stde by Tde Tr BriT.sh institutions so they fought as enemies, and later tougnt siae "^ °?"° , • .: 1,1^ y^lue of British Tght expect that as the Boers came to «?"?"' ftSBShConfeScy. In this citfzenship they would become «"°^« "i^."?^" f ^^.^b^^^^^^ in the recent country we had nothing to regret f°'>Ji«„PfJ\^f Mother Coun in her hour of South African trouble, ^he devotion given to the Mother ^^ y ^^^^^^ in the Usk of nanonbuilding, and tliere ™ °° ?" ■Lm.^.n i„ ihe hall, all men which the task .ou d fall more *»°»l~°,i74"°„~^ entitled to the sympa. Std%ST^p'^rral,'^ritSVo'l*L Dominion. -. -r s-£Su"°rsid"r„sJ"rsaS,'J5iM ir.: srjsr^ -.^^^Sa"; :!:?;?ivls^heSfeU? » '^.%^^ viction that there awaited for Canada, it she provea h Government market in Australia for many lines of ^^ P'J^^'J^.^.J,^, however, for Canada to could, it would assist * J'^^^J™^"*;^,^ i^Tit^the p^^^^^^^ means of transporta- establish a satisfactory trade with Australia witn ^°« P t^j-^^ » cargo line from tion. Two things were necessary. _™' '^^^ """^^ Secondly, thev needed to the Canadian Atlantic ports ^'» »^« ^^P^.'^'^o AustraU;. (Applause.) ' The latter improve the existing line ^"^0™ Va"^°^^" 1 t«rAtlanicine; would divert a vast project, if followed by the ^stabhshment of a fas A unuc ^ ^^.^^ ^ amiunt of traffic between Europe and Australia hrougn ^^^^^ ^^^ ^ almost exclusively passed through 'i^'^Suez Canal in^^^^^^^ ^^^^ carried out by Canada without t^eco-oiK^ration of the otne^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ Canadian Government was preP»«d t'> Pg ^J^^ PJ^^^ j^^er share if the others Sd cUo%^ar nt^p^S-r ^^^^^ ^t would shorten the distance «■ 1 62 between Great Britain and Australia by many days, and perhaps Canada might intercept and keep some portion of the vast trade that would be attracted over the route. As for the cargo line via the Cape, Mr. Mulock went on, that was not beyond the resources of their own country. While they would invite the co-operation of Australia, yet if that country proved unwilling, the Government felt sufficiently confident to establish the line at the sole expense of Canada. (Applause.) He would say to business men planning the extension of thoir trade that taey might rely on a permanent cargo line beinu established between this country and Australia within the next few months. (Applause). Mr. MuLOCK closed with an expression of hope that Canada might continue to mcrease in material prosperity, and that her progress might be on such lines as would strengthen the bonds of union of the great world-wide Empire of which Canada formed no inconsiderable part. Judge Morison, of Newfoundland, who followed Hon. Mr. Mulock was, received with hearty applause and cheering. He hoped, he said, that when, by-and-bye, a bona fide proposal was made for the admission of Newfoundland, it would be received with the same warmth which had been extended him. It was not so long since when it was a far cry from Toronto to Vancouver, or to Newfoundland, but to-day the gathering of business men from Vancouver to Newfoundland was proof of what had been accomplished by Confederation and improvement in transportation. On the latter question he spoke interestingly, pointing out that thirty years ago New- foundland only received mails once a fortnight ; to-day the improvement in trans- portation and communication was one of the strongest forces working toward the closer political union of the two countries. He was pleased, he said, that the ignor- ance of the western man as to the resources of the Maritime Provinces and New- foundland was rapidly passing. That was as it should be. Newfoundland was the oldest and most loyal of the British Colonies. It was sometimes said that the people were desirous of being annexed to the United States. There was no such sentiment ; It existed only in the imagination of reporters at times when news or cash was scarce. Newfoundland had suffered too much and stood too much neglect, and injustice even, at the hands of the Old Country to bt willing to part from her now. (Laughter and applause.) Their eyes were not turned so much in the direction of their friends to the south as in the direction of this great Dominion of Canada. Judge Morison dealt briefly with some of the injustices under which he said Newfoundland labored. He spoke also in an incidental way of the French shore question, adding that if Newfoundland were added to Canada it would be settled by Hon. Mr. Tarte within six months, a statement which aroused great applause. Continuing, the Judge referred specifically to the question of union. Various matters must be taken into consideration, he said, in relation to the idea. First of these was the debt of the island colony, which now totalled $20,000,000, of which f 13,000,000 or $14,000,000 had been incurred in building over 600 miles of railway, and the rest in the erection of public works. This debt would have to be taken over by Canada. The population of Newfoundland was 218,000, its revenue $2,000,000, its imports $8,000,000 and exports about the same. The imports were largely from the United kingdom, the Unittd States, the West Indies and Canada, about one-third being from the latter. In the event of Confederation, Canada would soon he believed, have the whole of this trade. The island had great resources, and he briefly enumerated them: cod and herring fishing, and whaling, timber and minerals. It was also thought that in the near future rich coal deposits would be found. Everywhere prosperity reigned ; the same was true of Canada, and he believed that negotiations should be com- menced new while good times existed. He thought that Confederation would be mutually advantageous to both countries, and in Newfoundland, at least, the pro- posal would be received with the unwillingness which maiked the negotiations of 1869, when the advantages were not clearly understood on either side. The toast of " Our Gusp.ts " -.vas briefly proposed b>' Mr. Ames, who remarked that 141 delegates duly accredited from 63 Boards of Trade from all over Canada had registered at the Parliament buildings. I63 word,, h. S.W. had «»1 • """U °' f "^^'S. or CoSfrMion, .nd th. growth ;„Sioo of the el.n,.nt..h.t go to build up . u.t»^ to so successful a conclusion. ■ . ^ r »u_ M.. RO...T MUH.O, o. th. Mont,». ^ °' J;,ttior'o<'^5r'j»VulS j^::.,^?''.Sfw&Tr.Sd »r.rc.'"u:Lr"'.u, eountn, duH., ..». industry from so many parts of Canada. " ^^^^^i^^^c MVess. to assemble these Board of Trade to summon this g«*^„^°'"J??"\da fX^ purpose of consider- representatives of the commercial mterest, oj Canada ««' »"« P ^ ^^ industrial in| what best could be done to «t«°f J'",^^'"™^^' at large questions from a inluence of Canada. ^J, ''^^./"y. '^o £ sL lar^ that ceL^^ '"«'''"g« ^^^ cemral point of view. Canada had got to b^» Urge t^^^^ They had religious become necessary in order rightly to;"«* *^v had the Parliament at Ottawa, gatherings, they had educat.ona /T^f °««J,fh\Cf ' cies o commercial parlia- frpiSimV^o;i'anre.*Tff^^^^^^^^ ngC ofXr knickerbockers-were f^^^-J^^^^^^^i^s of Canada. He " It would take considerabe time t°P'^«^°* ^f'J^^alis of their prosperity would not weary his hearers with "any details. M » J^^J^^^^*;* i^inio^ Lshels of must be V^rJ^:^^"X" SUrZloo hundred Son acres of wheat-grow- wheat to feed the world. Canada naa 300 """"'J^ th^ world Mr. Ross drew Kr ruld«e^^^e"rtire ^f;!^-s;;^ly^^°r"ntinent^of Europe. ^^^'Si itself was a suggestion as to our r^^th -d ^^^^^^^ a phase of our future wealth, which might well occupy for many Jays tne of^great Congress of Commerce such as that "o^ assjWed n this cUy . b ^^ ^^y side'with our agricultural wealth was "^^J^'^^.^Jjlmerica. would have United States were becoming »» ^" 5^'J,}5"r;Ife°riM its obedience to law and order. _{applause)-a race noted 5V*t^S itrioyaUy to the institutions which it ha. its integrity of character and not^ for It. k,yaU^ to^ ^ believe, there will Mtablirfied for its own use and *f "«"*•. V"'^, ^^ honor to the various stocks grow up on this soil a Canadian race, which wiuoo no .^ ^ ^^^^^^ gomwLhit >prings,and a««rt Uself in entep^^^ Continuing. Mr. worthy the admiration of the world. (L°°f^°^t7^ Canada with so much capital Ross asked who could say what were the K~?^"J'\i,at they would not feel that S hand and such an intellectual outfit, "e hopej t^^^ y ^ ^.o^y desire. he exaggerated; that ^^fj^^^^^.^J^^^l^i^u^i^^^^^ Confed- Commercially they could see by the tables^owt^^^^ ^^^ increased, how their eration, how their »"P°'^^%*"/ "^SL^^t of C^^^ was almost a romancr ,n itself, ships sailed on every sea. J^e development 01 L,an^^^ j^^^^^o MrVRoss went on. One hundred ,y**"Xort St . John had been a fishing town ; now stood; Montreal had been a little ^Po" • ^^ J^ Vancouver had not been Halifax had been a garnson town, an I"^™' ^°^»g^'„'done in that time? RaU- known; Winnipeg h»d been a prune. JJ°" '^^^''^^t^ ,hen used only by fishing ways had been buUt, commerce now neo,am ^^^^^ ^^^ Germany, what noble sons had grown up while Je was Dusy ^^^^ ^^^^^ ^ Sapoleon was vont to study tact^s with the map 0. ^u pc v ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ Ca^dians should study »he problems of commerce wu _^ f^ ^^ ^^^^^^^ before them. The first part of the world that we ^ ^^^.^ ^ should be the British market. Mr Ross^eterreo ^ ^^^^^^^ ^^ of former efforU to •°»'°i"«',. ^^S^^^^e W made much headway there. He said that it was only recently that we nao^ fuUy-manufacturwi maintained that we should as tar as pos ^o-oVdinate our transporta- Koods. so as to reap the double profit. J^* f)V°" ° ^^ between transportation by Sthat there wouM be Poetically no ^'t/^'^^ ^'^^J'JJ^r.o secure iVthe Britisfi Und and by water. In the «"^;f .P^^^/ Mr Ross spoke eloquently of the place i66 ud the population incrMMd, Canada would become one of the strongeat and moat important parte of the Empire to which ahe bolon,;ed. It behooved Canadiana, therefom, to riae to the importance of their heritage, and atrive to attain all the virtuea o. political integrity, loyalty to thpir conatitution, and devotion to the beat intereata of the land in which they lived. (Loud and prolonged applauae). The chairman announced that the Conference would continue thia morning, and that the general public were invited to attend the seaaiona. The band played the national anthem and the gathering diaperaed.