SPEECH 
 
 or 
 
 J. B. PLTJJMB, ]VL.P., 
 
 ON 
 
 THE BUDGET 
 
 :o; 
 
 {FROM THE OFFICIAL DEBATE.) 
 
 HOUSE OF COMMONS. 
 
 Tuesday, 5th March, 1878. 
 SUPPLY— THE BUDGET. 
 
 ADJOURHID DIBATI 
 
 Order for rosuraing the debate on 
 Mr. Cartwright'H proposed motion: 
 " That Mr. Speaker do now leave the 
 Chair for the House to go again into 
 Committee of Supply," read. 
 
 Ma. PLUMB said that, when the 
 House adjourned on Friday evening, 
 he was about to proceed with the 
 debate which then occupied its atten- 
 tion. Before he would attempt to deal 
 with the general question, which would 
 no doubt interest the House during the 
 whole of the discussion that would take 
 place on the speech of his hon. friend 
 the Minister of Finance, he would brief- 
 ly advert to statements which had been 
 made — though perhaps these wore not 
 entirely relevant to the question, — by 
 the hon. gentlemen who had spoken on 
 the other side since his hon. friend (Mr. 
 Cartwright) addressed the House ; and 
 he would take them in reverse oi'der, 
 as th«y would then, perhaps, be 
 fresher in the minds ot hon. members, 
 and as hon. members might then, per- 
 haps, more readily apprehend what he 
 had to say on the subject. The hon. 
 member who preceded him — the hon. 
 member for Centre Toronto (Mr. Muc- 
 donald), for whose opinions, as a busi- 
 ness man, ho had the highest respect, 
 and who, personally, knew the esteem 
 with which he (Mr. Plumb) regardetl 
 him — had given them one of those 
 addresses which it was always pleasant 
 to hear in the House, and which was 
 characterized by that gentleness and 
 , iorsuasiveness of manner by which 
 the hon. gentleman always attracted, 
 and kept the ear of the House ; 
 and he regretted that he must, on this 
 
 occasion, differ toto coelo from the 
 hon. gentleman, with regard to the 
 arguments whicli ho (Mr. ^^lacdonald) 
 had advanced, and the conclusioDS 
 which he had reached. His hon. 
 friend had s|)oken well ; but he had 
 spoken from a peculiar stand- 
 point. His hon. friend was largely 
 engaged in commerce ; he had boon an 
 eminent and successful example of 
 what could be done in Canada by un- 
 aided industry and indomitable perse- 
 verance , but, throughout his whole 
 career, be (Mr. Macdonald) had taken 
 one single line ; and, when he argued , 
 upon commercial subjects, upon finan- 
 cial subjects, and upon subjects of 
 political economy, he (Mr. Plumb) 
 could not but suppose that the hon. 
 gentleman's views were, to a certain 
 extent, biased by the peculiar interests 
 which he so worthily represented. 
 He could not blame the hon. gentleman 
 for this, or blame him for presenting 
 his arguments to the House in the 
 form which they would naturally take 
 from his own personal standpoint, and 
 from his personal predilections. That 
 hon. gentleman had told them, in the 
 first place, that he would give them 
 the real causes, generally speaking, for- 
 the enormous sufferings which 
 wo were enduring from the com- 
 meicial depression which, it could 
 not be denied, existed in this coun- 
 try ; which, it could not be denied, 
 still existed in the greatest severity, 
 and which it might now be the policy, 
 and he thought it was the policy, of 
 hon. gentlemen on the other side of 
 the Flouae to treat lightly as a passing 
 cloud, and to say that it was no 
 longer preying upon the very vitals 
 of the community. In fact, that was 
 the Htatement of his hon. friend 
 the Finance .Minister last year, who, 
 in^^tead of being a oroaking prophet 
 
2 
 
 evil, as ho was when ho (Mr. Cart- 
 wright) took tho office ot Finance Min- 
 ister, was then airy, cheerliii and 
 hopeful, stating that wo had passed 
 over tho worst ol' the storm, and that 
 tho country, though it still felt tho 
 eft'ecls of the ground-swell, was coming 
 into smoother water. ]lis hon. friend 
 from Centre Toronto took, he (Mr. 
 Plumb) was bound to nay, with all 
 respect to him, an empirical view of 
 the situation. Tho causes of the de- 
 pression lay deeper and were more 
 la.-ting and enduring ihan any bo (Mr. 
 Macdonald) had referred to. Thoy lay 
 in great changes in ihe general con- 
 dition of tho commercial and financial 
 wor (1. They did not lie in the question 
 whether Canada imported a few million 
 dollars' worth ot goods more or 
 le-s, or made a few million dollars 
 more or less, of bad debts. They did 
 not lie in tho fact that tho importers of 
 Carijuia, always excepting his aon. 
 friend, filled their warehouses with tho 
 merchandise of England and the United 
 States, which they forced upon people 
 ♦ who wero not competent to conduct 
 business or to pay for their pur- 
 chases; or that they gave such persons 
 long credits, and placed them in posi- 
 tions to compete with each other and 
 with sound merchants in the most 
 injuiious manner, all of whfch was 
 calculated to hurry this country into 
 batikruptcy. Those were among tho 
 causes, but thoy wore slight causes, as 
 his hon. friend would at once recognize. 
 He had, with amazement, looked over 
 the statements which from time to time 
 appeared in the news])iipers in adver- 
 tisements with regard to insolvent 
 estates ; and he had there seen that 
 men wo)'e trading throughout tho coun- 
 try on no capital, and when the assignee 
 took hold of their estates, cases wero 
 found where whole families wero 'pro- 
 bably living out of a business involving 
 a stock of $5,000 or 86,000, or oven 
 less. And he had, consequently, been 
 amazed that it was not seen at once 
 ^ that those men could not carry on a 
 successful business on such a basis. 
 This was one of tho causes of the de- 
 pression, and it was an immediate 
 cause; it was a cause that xvas before 
 them continually. The House well 
 know this, but the causes of tho groat 
 depression, which were worthy of the 
 
 examination of tho hon. the Finance 
 Minister of Canada, and which were of 
 national importance, — of national con- 
 sequence, wore deeper and farther 
 reaching ; and he ventured to say that 
 they would continue far longer than 
 any could desire lo imagine. Tho 
 Opposition wero charged with wishing 
 to detain tlya Spectre of hard times for 
 their own benefit; but could it be possi- 
 ble that gentlemen opposite wore so far 
 prejudiced by party spirit that they 
 could imagine that any man having the 
 interests of Canada at heart would desire 
 for a moment to interrupt the career 
 of her prosperity. It ^^as unworthy 
 even of the most bitter partizan, or of 
 tho most unscrupulous politician to 
 make any assertion of the kind, and he 
 hurled it back to tho other side of the 
 House. 
 
 Some Hon. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. plumb said hon. gentlemen op- 
 posite might applaud sarcastically, but 
 he would say it was unworthy of them, 
 for those hon. gentlemen knew that 
 the members of tho Opposition had a 
 common interest with the general 
 community in the prosperity of tho 
 Dominion ; they hud no desire for any 
 bonetit to themselves, for there could 
 be none, in having the depression 
 continue; thoy only wished to look 
 at it with the eye of common 
 sense. *He never heard, except 
 on the floor of tho House, or read, 
 save in a few platform speeches 
 delivered during the past summer, 
 that' there was not still the greatest 
 anxiety felt in all tho commercial and 
 financial circles of Canada in rogai'd to 
 the business of tho country. Ho had 
 not heard elsewhere that the clouds 
 were lifting,though God grant that they 
 might soon see a glimpse of clear sky, 
 and ho did not care how soon it came, 
 nor should it have any connection with 
 the political situation here ; and he 
 might say thai the party which 
 desired to make ])olitical capital out of 
 either the one ( uestion or the other, 
 was unworthy of the confidence of the 
 people of Canada. 
 
 Some Hon. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. plumb : Yes, hon. gentlemoQ 
 might say " hear, hear," and he thought 
 they would say it a good many timea 
 
 ^P 
 
3 
 
 before be had finished with the rumarl<s 
 which ho intended now to make in 
 this House. ITia hon. friend from 
 Centre Toronto, ho thouicht, went a 
 little out of his way when .speaking of 
 the dcprospion. ito (Mr. Macdonuld) 
 had paid that the manufacturers, if they j 
 had more character, more intelligence, 
 and more capital, would not require 
 protection, but would succeed without 
 it. Those, ho believed, were the hon. 
 gentleman's words; if they were not, 
 he was open to correction. 
 
 Mr, MACDONALD (Centre To- 
 ronto) : I would like to ca.'l the hon. 
 gentleman's attention to tha fact that 
 I never made such a statement in this 
 House with roferenco to the manufac- 
 turers as a class. 
 
 Mr. plumb said he had taken 
 down the hon. gentleman's remarks 
 exactly as he uttered them, and he 
 thought he had taken them down cor- 
 rectly, though he did not wish to 
 insist upon it ; he was very much 
 astonished when ho heard them ; 
 and ho thought thoy wore heai-d by 
 other hon. gentlemen. The hon. gen- 
 tleman had said — " They, the manufac- 
 turers, wanted capital, they wanted 
 intelligence, and thoy wanted char- 
 acter." The hon. gentleman also told 
 them — and he considered that the 
 utterances of a gentleman of such large 
 experience should be very guai-ded 
 with respect to business affairs, be- 
 cause he (Mr. Macdonald) was an 
 authority in these matters — that the 
 protection of ITJ per cent., which we 
 now had, was almost equivalent to 30 
 per cent. The hon. gentleman had led 
 them to suppose that the cost of the 
 transportation of goods hero from 
 England, added 12i per cent, to the 
 present tariff ; but he omitted to state 
 to the House and take the House into 
 his confidence with respect to the fact 
 that the great accumulations, the 
 
 ?reat increases of Ihe imports of 
 )anada had not come from Great 
 Britain. What thoOpposition hud com- 
 plained of was that the United States 
 were undermining the British markets 
 here ; and that the imports from the 
 United States were increasing from 
 year to year, while those from Great 
 Britain were fulling off fh)m year to 
 
 year. And ho (Mr. Plumb) spoke with 
 statistics to sustain him in making this 
 statement. There was certainly not a 
 protection of 30 per cent, against the 
 United St-itcs. It cost no more to 
 send goods from Lowell, Mass.. to 
 Toronto than from Lowell to Clove- 
 land, rt cost no more U) send goods 
 from the principal manufacturing 
 points in the United States to the 
 principal cities in Canada, than it did 
 to aond them to the western cities of 
 which thoy held the market. It was 
 a mistake to say so, and he ven- 
 tured to state this with all duo do- 
 foi'cnce, for in all matters of this kind 
 ho deferred to the hon. gentlen)aii, and 
 ho t;ould not wish to attempt to assume 
 that ho was in this House an authority 
 upon such mutters, such as the hon. 
 gentleman ought to be ; but such an 
 authority, he was afraid, the hon. 
 gentleman showed himself' not to bo 
 in this relation, and he thought that, 
 if the hon. gentleman roconsidored 
 the case and looked over his figurea 
 again, ho would not insist upon what 
 ho had stated hcic. His hon. friend 
 from Centre Toronto was preceded 
 by his hon. friend tho member for 
 North Oxford (Mr. Oliver). He (Mr. 
 Plumb) might, at this point, say that, 
 before his hon. friend (Mr. Macdonald) 
 sat down he alluded to the course which 
 was recommended by the hon. tho Fin- 
 ance Minister in i-egard to not dealing 
 with the tariff at present, and not pro- 
 viding for tho deficits which were grow- 
 ing and increasing upon the country, 
 which he (Mr. Plumb) ventured to say, 
 from what he knew of the business of 
 the country, there was no reason to 
 suppose were to be lessened at present 
 by any change in its condition. 
 J lis hon. friend said he (Mr. 
 Cariwright) had no other thing to do 
 but to continue the policy of masterly 
 inactivity and to rest upon the wheel 
 a contented fly as long us he (Mr. 
 (•artwright) was not disturbed from 
 his position. His hon. friend had also 
 said that Free-ti-ade had made Eng- 
 land ; and that the Crossleys and tho 
 Brights were the result of the Fi-oe- 
 trade system of England. He (Mr. 
 Plumb) denied this ; he (Mr. Plumb) 
 said there never was a country which 
 was a stronger example of the benefit! 
 of the prot^tive system than England 
 
was to-day; and that tho whole result 
 of the great ascendancy of England 
 in manufactures had been due to the 
 fact that she was a sedulously pro- 
 tected country until she liad acquired, 
 by improvements in machinery, by 
 great experience, by the intelligence 
 of her manufacturers, and by her world- 
 wide commerce, the power to become, 
 for her own special and selfish pur- 
 poses, a Free trade country. 
 
 Mb. MACDONALD: I hope the 
 Lon. gentleman will excuse me, for I 
 never like to interrupt a speaker; but, 
 to the best of my recollection, from the 
 beginning of my remarks to the end, 
 I never used the word free-trade, I do 
 not think that this word is to be found 
 in the remarks 1 otl'ered to this House. 
 
 Mr. plumb said the hon. gentle- 
 man had made an explanation which 
 was not an explanation. lie had not 
 stated that the hon. gentleman had 
 used the word free-trade. He had said 
 that the hon. gentleman spoke of the 
 present policy of England, which was 
 a Free-trade policy. The hon. gentle 
 man was arguing in that direction 
 altogether — that this policy made the 
 Brights and the Crossleys. Now, he 
 said that, if the hon. gentleman accept- 
 ed his side of the argumsnt, and would 
 say that the ftrotoctivo policy of 
 England made the Brights and the 
 Crossleys ihey had no issue, and they 
 were agreed. He (Mr. Plumb) was 
 perfectly willing to let the hon. gentle- 
 man take either horn of the dilemma, 
 and to leave him there. Having dis- 
 posed of that part of the hon. gentle- 
 man's argument, he would refer to an- 
 other point ; he was amazed to hoar the 
 hon. gentleman say that, Jijthough 
 the deficits were great and growing, 
 he wished, great as they were, that 
 they had been greater. As the commer- 
 cial authority- ujvm the other side of 
 the House he had made that state- 
 ment ; but he (Mr. PlumI)) could 
 not concur in that view ; and 
 ho thought that very few hon. gentle- 
 men in the House, including the hon. 
 the Finance Minister himseli", would be 
 in sympathy with the hon. gentleman, 
 especially considering the difiionlties 
 which the hon. the Finance Minister 
 had to deal with in the deficits us they 
 kowstood. The line of argument which 
 
 the hon. gentleman used in that 
 respect was that, if the deficit had 
 been greater, he thought the country 
 would have sooner taken the alarm and 
 have taken in sail. He (Mr. Plumb) 
 had not followed the hon. gentleman 
 very closely on this point, but the idea 
 the hon. gentleman seemed to convey 
 was that the business men of Canada, 
 the statesmen of Canada, or the men 
 who were entrusted in this House with 
 the affairs of the country, and to whom 
 was delegated the legi.'lation of 
 Canada, were so insensate v'lat they 
 needed to have the teachings of such 
 deficits staring them in the face in 
 order to arrest their headlong pro- 
 gress. This might be so ; but he did 
 not undervalue the intelligence of the 
 Government in such a way as to ac- 
 cept that lino of argument or to hear 
 it without entering his earnest and 
 solemn protest against it ; and he 
 further believed that, in this respect, 
 at least, if in no other, he should be in 
 accord with the sound judgment and 
 the common sense of the hon. gentle- 
 men who usually controverted his 
 opinions in this House, and to whose 
 views, certainly, in most directions, he 
 was happy to say, he was in opposition. 
 They then (still proceeding in inverse 
 order) had heaixloneof the most extra- 
 ordinary harangues ever delivered in 
 theHouse. The word harangue had been 
 objected to as unparliamentary. He 
 would again use the woitl " harangue," 
 because he knew it was a word of par- 
 liamentary propriety. He had been 
 looking it up in the dictionary, and he 
 had high authority for its use. One 
 of the most extraordinary harangues 
 that ever was delivered in the House 
 was delivered by the hon. member for 
 North Oxford (Mr. Oliver.) He should 
 not attompt seriously to deal with argu- 
 ments such as the hon. gentleman had 
 brought forward, and which were 
 listened oand applauded with the usual 
 discrimination with which the opposite 
 side of th > House applauded anything, 
 no matte/ how untenable or how 
 illogical it was. 
 
 Some Hon. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. plumb said that, if this pleased 
 hon. gentlemen opposite, he was verjr 
 glad indeed, because it showed that the 
 
were very easily pleased ; this was all 
 ho had to say on that point. The hon. 
 member for North Oxfoi-d had given 
 them the information that eight mil- 
 lions of money had b^en impi'(.pcrly 
 squandered b}' that reckless and profli- 
 gate Administration which preceded 
 the embodiment of all the virtues that 
 now held power, on the Intercolonial 
 Railway. He could fancy the frowning 
 figure of the " Grand Old Reformer " 
 standing behind the hon. gentleman 
 while that stiitcmont was made; and it 
 was fortunate for the hon. gentleman 
 that he (Mr. Brown) was not then in 
 the gallery, because he (Mr. Plumb) 
 thought the hon. gentleman would 
 have felt that scourge which was made 
 proverbial — for, under command of Mr. 
 ferown, the cat was more used than 
 the compass in the steering of the 
 ship in which the hon. gentleman 
 from North Oxford had long ago 
 embarked. Yes, he could remember 
 that ten years ago, the hon. gentle- 
 man's Loader had waid that, for the 
 sake of getting Confederation, he 
 would build six Intercolonial Rail- 
 ways, with, all the expenses attached 
 to such an undertaking. The hon. 
 gentleman from North Oxford had 
 evidently forgotten that f;iet. He was 
 somewhat surprised when, for t.io sake 
 of making a particular argument and 
 gaining a parlizan triumph — as ho 
 (Mr. Plumb) was told from the other 
 side of the House when those hon. 
 gentleman threw their suoei-s at him — 
 the hon. gentleman Iwui made such a 
 statement which was sure to recoil on 
 his own head. He remembered ])errectly 
 well reading the Confederation debate'^, 
 not long ago, where ho found that the 
 most strenuous, the mostelociuent, and 
 the mo.st ardent advocate for the Inter- 
 olonial Railway, no matter at what 
 cost, — for they could not know 
 at that time what it would cost 
 — was the Hon, George Brown, the 
 leader, and the inspiror, and the gover- 
 nor t.>t' the party which his hon. friend 
 the member for North Oxford so worth- 
 ingly represented in the House as the 
 tsmbodiment of Government j)rinci]des 
 in that riding. That hon. gentleman 
 had also made a long statement touch- 
 ing the prosperity of our manufactures. 
 The hon. gentleman had showed from 
 statistics, perfectly accurate, of course. 
 
 of the census returns of 1871, that the 
 mtnufiacturers had made largo profits 
 prior to that time, and he (Mr. Plumb) 
 did not deny that they were then pros- 
 pering ; but, if money should be invest- 
 ed on the information derived b}' the 
 hon. gentleman from such a source, ho 
 was afraid investors would not get 
 veiy large dividends. He would call 
 the attention of the House to the fact 
 that the hon. gentleman had read 
 statistics concerning the manufactur- 
 ing industries of Canacla in 18<i9 and 
 1870. The Opposition, however, 
 claimed that, in 186!) and 1«70, under 
 the benign ruie of his. right hon. 
 friend *he member for Kingston and 
 his confreres, ami under the statesman- 
 like direction which then had the 
 helm of state, our manutiicturing in- 
 I teresfs were prosperous ; a fact which 
 no c; disputed. He (Mr. Plumb) 
 acceji'ed the statement of his hon. 
 friend on the other side, and thought 
 ho was light in bringing forward aa 
 exomplication of the aiguments used 
 by hon. gentlemen on his (Mr. Plumb's) 
 side of the House ; they Iiad never 
 argued the other way ; they had always 
 said that, during the period between 
 18(iO and 1873, and before the crisis in 
 the United States, Canada was prosper- 
 ous. After the collapse of the great 
 inflation in the United States ; after 
 the disasters in that countiy, our com- 
 mercial crisis I'ol lowed. The Ameri- 
 cans then began to undersoil us in 
 our own markets; thoir disasters 
 forced them to seek this market, and 
 whereas the 1.') |)er cent, genei'ai taritY 
 levied, was ))rotection enough prior to 
 1874, and we then needtfd no additional 
 revenue, the addilion of 2h per cent, 
 in 1874- gave us no additional 
 protection. On the contrary, it was 
 less than wo had before uniler the 
 ditlerent condition of affairs gi-owing 
 out of high prices in the United States. 
 They could not sell us anything and 
 we could sell them eve ything for 
 many years prior to 187-4,when, through 
 an inflated currency in the United 
 States, through a speculative sj'stom, 
 through an abandonment of honest, 
 regulai", straightforward labour in thai 
 country, they created such an increase 
 of prices, such a state of things among 
 themselves, that Caniulft could furnish 
 them with everything and they ojald 
 
give us nothintrin return. Tiiis sliito 
 of affairs in tho United States brought 
 about the crisis there, and not the tariti" 
 syatcm alone, which had been so do- 
 cried 
 
 Several Hon. MEMBEIiS: Yce. No. 
 
 Mr. plumb said those exclama- 
 tions wore made because ho had 
 hit hon. gentlemen too hard. Ho 
 had taken away their chief ai-gument ; 
 ho was taking tho broad out of their 
 mouths, but it was tho bread of mis- 
 representation, and not tho bioad of 
 honesty. This was exactly the whole 
 argument. 
 
 Mr. young : What is your state- 
 ment? 
 
 Mr. PLUMB: We will explain that 
 in good time. My hon. friend from 
 South Waterloo shoukl first make his 
 own statement. 
 
 Mr. WOOD: Whoro is your state- 
 ment ? 
 
 Mr. PLUMB: I hear the hon. g(Mi- 
 tleman from Hamilton (Mr. Wood). 
 I have been in his constituency, and 
 know something of tho feeling there on 
 public questions. That gentleman 
 migl.t back uj) his tradf ai'giiment b}- 
 reference to the resolutions of the 
 Board of Trade, but ho (Mr. Plumb) 
 recolleclcd when tho resolutions 
 of the Board of Trade were always 
 sneered at by hon. gentlemen 
 on the other siiie of the House ; they 
 <lid not acknowledge the authority oi' 
 tho lioard cf Trade; they did not 
 acknowledge that it was cajmlilo o!' 
 forming an intellisront opinion u])i^n 
 tho tiscal and financial jiliairs of the 
 countiy; tliey derided it, because it 
 did not suit their line <>f argument. If 
 tho Board of Trade was notan authority 
 at that time it was certainly not an 
 authority now. The gentleman who 
 brought forward the lesolution in re- 
 spect to the tariff at the last meeting 
 of the Dominion Board of Trade, was its 
 president, had been called lo account by 
 tho Hamilton Board of Trade. A meet- 
 ing ,-."w held and a resolution was jiro- 
 posed condemning his course. That 
 motion was voted down and the gentle- 
 man was sustained at tho meeting of 
 manufacturers and mechanics and other 
 gentlemen interested in trade in Hamil- 
 ton. Tho House would, howovei-, not 
 doom tho circumstance very significant 
 whon they were told that it was tho 
 
 casting vote of tho gentleman cen- 
 sured, as Chairman of the Hamilton 
 Board of Trade, that maintained him in 
 his position. Tho hon. member for 
 North Oxford (Mr. Oliver) had stated 
 that Mr. Howland, an excellent au- 
 thority — who, by tho way, had been 
 President of tho Dominion Board of 
 Trade,which the hon.genlleman derided 
 as having no authority in the country 
 and whoso expressions of opinion wore 
 not worthy of being quoted — had 
 stated that theio was no depression, 
 Tho hon. member had stated that Mr. 
 HowUind was a largodoaler in produce 
 having consequently tho best moans 
 of knowing that there had boon a 
 largo crop, and that tho trade 
 depression was passing away, because, 
 forsooth, Mr. How land stated that the 
 business of tho produce jnerchant was 
 generally j)ros))erous and there had 
 boon a largo harvest in Canaila in 1877. 
 The llou.ve had do doubt of tho abun- 
 dance of the harvest, and ho (Mr. 
 Plumb) congratulate*! the country 
 upon it, and would have been glad to 
 have congratulated the agricultural in- 
 terests on the prosperity and giiiiis that 
 ought to have ci-owneil the labours of 
 the husbandman, which foimed the basis 
 of the prosperity of eveiy country. Tho 
 jirci-ont Government had, however, 
 thrown upon tho farmoi's so many 
 burthens incidental or direct that, 
 when they had large cro])s wtiich 
 should yield large profits, the profits 
 weie materi'dly reduced. They per- 
 mitted the cereals of the Great 
 West to come into this coun- 
 try and free of duty. They 
 permitted a tax to bo levied on 
 barley, which was tho princijjal crop 
 of Western Canada, to the extent, 
 thiough tlie malt tax, of 73 cents per 
 bushel upon a production which was 
 now worth less than 50 cents a bushel 
 in our markets, and in many parts of 
 Ca uida was absolutely unsaleable. 
 Ju-l below Ottawa, on tho St Law- 
 femo River, two-rowed barloj' was 
 grown which would not germinate 
 with Americm barley, and, thorefoi-e, 
 was not salealde in tho Uiuted Slates 
 market for mixing with barley grown 
 there; thus, the growers, whode])ended 
 on a home market, had thoii- crops 
 lying in their granaries unsold. Those 
 fanners wei-o beginning to loarn, 
 though they did not hoar it from their 
 
Fepresentativos, who did not loolc vory 
 closely after the intercHts of thoir con- 
 Btituents, that a tax of 72 centN was 
 levied upon malt which was the pro- 
 duction of barley, and that tlio two- 
 rowed barley had no niaritot except 
 at homo and to a small extent in Kn^- 
 land. Those who wore acquainted 
 with apjriculture, knew that the farmer 
 himself could not reach the 
 English market. Ho had to go 
 to the middleman, to |)ay (tommisHion 
 and expenses, and thus very little of 
 the protit fell to him, and, when the 
 grangers attempted to make shipments 
 to European markets, they found so 
 many difficulties presented to prevent 
 them availing themselves of any except 
 theordinuiy market at their own doors, 
 that they had been compelled to aban- 
 don the attempt. That was the socalled 
 agricultural prosperity. Ilishon. friend 
 from S')uth Oxford had told the Rouse 
 there was u matiufacluring industiy in 
 the town of Ingersoll that had |)aid a 
 dividend of 30 per cent. He (Mr. 
 Plumb) tv)n;fiatulate(l the shareholders, 
 for ho had not hoard of such pri)s- 
 
 Eerity anywiiore else ; he would, 
 owevcr, wait and see what the balance 
 at the end of three or tivo j'ears 
 showed. Ho was jn-eparcd to admit 
 that in exceptional insluncos, arising 
 fl'om advaiUagoous position or special 
 circums'^ancos, prosperous manufac- 
 tories had been established in the 
 Don)inion ; though, under the policy of 
 hon. gentlemen opposite, ImU few .1}' 
 them had escaped loss. When the (rroat 
 Reformer went to AVashington to treat 
 with the United States, ho ])roposc 1 
 to adr.iit American manulacturo-', of 
 the kind referred to as |)ros])oring in 
 North Oxlonl, among othoi-s, duly ficc, 
 inorder to try the doubtful a lvat)lagcof 
 the kind of I'eciprocity he (Mr. Brown ) 
 was Willi ngtoaccopt. In congratulating 
 the shareholders of the prosporou;^ 
 industry to which leferenco had iieeu 
 made by the hon. member for North 
 Oxford, he (Mr. Plumb) was entitle 1 
 to claim that one great source of the 
 
 Erosperity of that part of the country 
 ad grown out of the fad that, owing 
 to the success of the manufacluiing 
 establishments cited by the member foi- 
 North Oxford, there was a gotxj homo 
 market for the farmers. The hon. 
 member for North Oxford had in<lulged 
 in a three ot four hoars' speech, in the 
 
 course of which he had brought in all 
 the public accounts and general statis- 
 tics of Canada, and would ])robably go 
 into those also of the United States and 
 (ireat Britain. He had now concluded 
 his reference to the hon. mem- 
 ber for North Oxford, and would 
 come now to what ho would call 
 the case in hai;d — the Budget spooch 
 of the hon. the Finance Minister. 
 He had the curiosity, a few days 
 ago, to examine, for the first time, 
 the utterances of that hon. gentle- 
 man as a prophet of evil in 1873, 
 when ho made that famous speech 
 upon which he based his entire 
 tinancial reputation. That speech, he 
 was surprised to find, was an old 
 familiar friend. He knew every line of 
 it, as if it had been written anil spoken 
 by himself, because it was simply the 
 speech which the hon gentleman 
 repeated on all occasions, with some 
 little variation^ tWr the platform and 
 ])icnic-partios and which he occasion- 
 ally seasoned with a little pepper or 
 put into it a few condiments or a touch 
 of vitriolic acid ; but the grout basis of 
 the speech, the whole line of argument 
 in the speech was perfectly familiar to 
 him (Ml-. Plumb). The hon. gentle- 
 man began by saying that the Govern- 
 ment which had the couniiy in charge 
 — before, unfortunately, the hon. 
 gentleman and his friends obtained 
 office — had increased tho jniblic 
 expenditure from 18iiT to 1H7!'>, frum 
 $li{,r)()U,(H)0 to $22,01)11, 1)00, an increase 
 of $S,i)O(»,0O0, while tho hon. the 
 Premier, with that lack of exactness 
 which dis'jngnishod him on many 
 oocasions. said it was Sll>,Oi)0,000" ; 
 SI, 500, 000 was of nogivat consc(]ueiu-.e 
 to the Minister of Pablic Wcwks. 
 Tiie hi^n. tho J^'in.uico Minister 
 had always dwelt with much emphasis 
 upon the"in.-roase of SS,.')Of»,000 i:i the 
 public expenditure, and his statement 
 would lead the public to suppose that 
 there had boon a great deal of rockless- 
 no->s and somoLliing worse involved in 
 it. Ho (Mr. PlumI)) had gone through 
 the Public Accounts tVom 1807 to the 
 ])oi'iod when his hon. friends had re- 
 tired from offi'-e, and he could give the 
 ilonn which constituted that increase, 
 and he could appeal to tho I[ou-.o .and 
 tho honest sentiment of the country 
 when ho stated that oveiy it(>m was 
 justifiable, niy, necessary from the 
 
8 
 
 ClrcumstftnceH of the ciaBe, and alno 
 thut he iii(J not tind that his lion. ♦■n''nd 
 the Finance Minister had lifted up 
 hiH manly voice to protoHt agaiimt that 
 expenditure while it was goin^ on. 
 But the hon. gentleman was a prophet 
 and critic aflei* the fact. The ex- 
 penditure from 18S7 to 1873 incroa.sed 
 aH follows: on 30th June, 18(J8, the ex- 
 penditure waH 813,486,0:::^ ; that in 
 1873-4 was 82:^,3 1(),31H ; but he in- 
 tended to Hhow that the expenditure 
 for 1873-4 was increa.««ed larj^oly by 
 eupplementary items in Kchedulo A, 
 ■which it might bo tiMriy claime<l did 
 not belong to the normal and real ex- 
 penditure of that year, although he ad- 
 mitted in that year Mr. Tilley stated 
 to the House that lie intended and ex- 
 pected, by the legislation of the spring 
 of 1873, to add (tonsiderably to the pub- 
 lic expenditure ; and as be (Mr. Tilley) 
 did not take the view of the present 
 Finance Minister, that deficits could go 
 on and increase without providing lax- 
 ation to meet them, he stated that dur- 
 ing that and the fnllowiiig year about 
 81, 500, (100 of sm plus revenue would be 
 received, ami that amount would pro- 
 vi<le for the items which bud been 
 added ti» the public expenditure by 
 the legislation of May, 187:^. The 
 items by which the public expendi- 
 ture had been incre!i.>-ed, and which 
 had been repeated by the lion, gentle- 
 men who had already risen on the 
 other >ide of the House, and which 
 would be reocated by everybody else 
 who spoke on that side, were the 
 following: — Civil Government, Ad- 
 ministralion of Jnsticef, Police, Peni- 
 tentiaries, and Legislati(m; altogether 
 8780, 711i for the whole tei'm. No one 
 wouki dispute the necessities of the 
 case; the enlargement of the area of 
 the country, the iwldition of British 
 Columbia and of ilanitoba, the open- 
 ing up of the North-West, the increase 
 of population, the general position of 
 the country and the general legislation 
 required and justified an increase of 
 expenditui-e, and made it obli- 
 gatory and absolutely necessary. 
 The hon. the Finance Minister had 
 not risen in his place during the seven 
 wasteful years and challenged those 
 items of expenditure in any sense 
 "which would entitle him now to give 
 the public to understand that that 
 
 increase of 88,600,000 was one for 
 which the late Government should b« 
 arraigned before the country, and be 
 held responflible in any blameable 
 sense, or except in the onlinar}' sense 
 in which an Administration was respon- 
 sible for the conduct of public affairs. 
 The next items were Geological Sur- 
 veys, Arts, Agriculture and Statistics, 
 andthoConsus — 81--, 105. It happened 
 that the Census fell within that period 
 of seven years, and,accordingly,largely 
 increased the aggregate of these three 
 items, — a fact which no one would 
 venture to challenge. The next items 
 were, Immigration and Quarantine, and 
 Marine Hospitals. 830.4,090 The Oppo- 
 sition could safely challenge the record 
 in regard to Immigration, and were 
 willing that the Government should 
 make as much use of that item as they 
 pleased. Hon. gentlemen opposite 
 could not, however, atlord to compare 
 llieir immigration record with tlio 
 record of the Department wheu it was 
 administered b}' the hon. inenber 
 for Coniplon (Mr. Pope,. "^L'lie} on 
 his (Mr. Plumb's) ude of the 
 House threw down the gauntlet and 
 hoped it would be taken up by 
 the Government, in order that the 
 couiitiy might learn what they bad to 
 suy in that direction. On Pensions and 
 8uperannuati(ms there was an outlay 
 of $ii4,474, and he would deal with 
 that question subsequeniK'. The Oppo- 
 sition had something to say as to the 
 ])olicy of the Government in respect to 
 superannuations, and they could recite 
 a tale of hardship and injustice which, 
 if hon. gentlemen opposite bad any 
 feelings, would cause them to blush for 
 shame, and rouse the dormant indig- 
 nation of the country against them. 
 There was an item of 8500,234 for 
 Ocean and Eiver Steam Service, 850, '^34 
 of which was the increase for the seven 
 y^ai-s. A large portion of that service 
 WW rendered necessar}' by the addition 
 to the Confederation of those Provinces 
 which had entered it during recent 
 years, and by the n'lUiral growth of the 
 commerce of the country — an increase 
 during those seven years almost un- 
 jiaralleled in the jirogress of any coun- 
 try in the world. The next items were 
 Fisheries, 845,675 ; Miscellaneous Ex- 
 penses, 89,709; Customs, 8180,906; 
 Excise, 8127,906; in both the latter 
 
r ^ 
 
 oases tho rovonues had \ery largely 
 inuroasud. Everyone know that 
 the receipts, both from Customs and 
 Excirte, wore so largely in excess of the 
 proportion of incrouso, that the aug- 
 mentation ot tho expenses was not by 
 any moans a porcontago which could 
 bo challenged, nor could it bo shown 
 that tho (jovornmont had not exercised 
 thosiiinu proper and far-sighted econo- 
 my wliich had characterized thoir 
 whole conduct of public atfuirs ; and, 
 wlioii tlioy took up tho record, ho 
 challenged lion, gentlemen opposite, 
 fkirly and honestly, to retute that 
 argument. Then thoi-e were the l"t)l low- 
 ing items:— Culling Timber, $VAjm ; 
 Portt-OtHce, «77t>,4(!8 ; Publ c Works. 
 con>lrucli..n,$l,<;y}»,732 ; Public Works, 
 revenue, $l,7<>.l,31)a. If hon. gontlo- 
 men wuuld lake up the question of 
 Public Works constructed on capital 
 account, and Public Works chargeable 
 to revenue, and dissect the items, it 
 woul'' plainly appear there iiad been 
 no impi()pri«3ty in the expenditure of 
 the j)iil»lic money in that direction, 
 and it would be time enough for them 
 to base thei. argunionts, in respect to 
 the recklessness of the lato Adminis- 
 tratioir when they had been able to 
 
 Erove that the expenditure hiKl not 
 Ben ma<le in an economical manner. 
 The mere fact of tho figures showing 
 an incroa>od volume was no argument ; 
 they mer««l3- bhowcd a certain amojnt 
 had lioen expended. With t»>e 
 rapidly increasing revenues of the 
 countiy, and the large si'i-nluvos which 
 were rolling uf) year atlor year, there 
 was, no doubt, eveiy possililo induce 
 ment to lead tho lato Government into 
 extravagance, but they had resisted 
 the temptation, although they could 
 not turn round and sa^' to applicants 
 for Government contracts, as the hon. 
 the pre.'«ont Premier would have been 
 able to sa}-, that thei-e were deficits to 
 meet and no i-evenuo which would 
 warrant the expenditure ; but the late 
 Government expended upwards of 
 $10,000,000 of surplus revenue on 
 works properly chargeable to capital. 
 These were the arguments he would 
 a])p]y to tbe assertion made on the 
 flooi- of the Ilouse, on every public 
 platform and in the press, that, from 
 1867 to 1873, the late Government 
 augmented the public expenditure Ly 
 
 88,500,000, according to tho figures of 
 the hon. tho Finance Minister, and 
 $10,000,000 acconling the very accu- 
 rate statement of the Premier. In 
 addition to those items, there were 
 others into which he would not enter, 
 which had arisen out of the changed 
 condition of tho country, by the opening 
 up of tho North-West, and the troubles 
 which had there prevailed ; the surveys 
 of the Province of Mani^toba, and 
 providing for Civil Government there ; 
 in short, the establishment of proper 
 administration over that vast and 
 fertile territory, which was, in the 
 future, to become a great source of 
 capital, revenue and prosperity, if those 
 holding the reins of power, to whatever 
 side of politics they might belong, were 
 true to the best interests of the 
 Dominion. The item of $14(5.068 for 
 Indian Grants he presumed would not 
 be questioned. Other items were : — 
 Dominion Uoimdary Surveys, $:i83, 1(53 ; 
 Dominion Forces in Manitoba, 
 840!),768; Nortii-West Territory 
 Organization, §12.2(52; United Suites 
 Houniiary Survey, 879,21)3; Military 
 Stores, $141,906; amounting in all 
 to $1,144,790. When looking care- 
 t'ull}' at tho items on which 
 the increase occurred, it would be 
 found that they were all of a 
 character perfectly legitimate and 
 necessary in view of the condition of 
 the country, and he was sui'prised that 
 gentlemen on the other side of tho 
 llouso should have made such reckless 
 statements and have placed themselves 
 in tho position they now occup'od in 
 re-ipcct to this nominal, this proper, jus- 
 tifiable and defensible increase. For it 
 was ju.stitiable and (lefcnsiblo in every 
 point, and he challenged the other side 
 to take up tho ex],enditurc from 1>:67 
 to 1873, item by item, and meet him 
 upon the arguments which he should 
 adduce in respect to that expenditure, 
 lie knew perfectly well that it had been 
 used in all directions as an argument 
 against the late Administration. Ho 
 had seldom noticed a speech made by 
 Ministerialists upon a public platform, in 
 which public expenditure was touched 
 upon, where he did not see the increase 
 in question bi-ought up as a justifiable 
 charge against the lato Administra- 
 tion ; so unreasonable, t-o untenable 
 was tbe position, however, that 
 
"l 
 
 it was only necessary to state the 
 items foi' every sensible, candid 
 and reasonable man, every man not 
 blinded by party feeling, to see through 
 its fallacy. The lallacy was clearly 
 shown in the statement which he now 
 placed before the House and before the 
 country, and he challenged its contra- 
 dicticn. He asserted also that there 
 was no period in the history of Canada 
 where any Government was so emin- 
 ently' justified in a liberal outlay as was 
 the Government that held the reins of 
 office up to 1873. Thei-e was no period 
 when the country had been so prosper- 
 ous, when it experienced so rapid a 
 growth and poured such a flood of 
 wealth into the public Treasury ; and 
 there were no iiuiiciitioiis of that great 
 crash which followed it excej)! the na- 
 tural indication that such periods of 
 prosperity must bo followed within ?i 
 certain time by a corresponding period 
 of depression ; but whether they would 
 conic soonei' or later it was not give:i 
 to the mind of most men to know 
 exactly'. Perhaps the only i>er- 
 son to whom it hud been vouch- 
 saR"! to have that entire and ooi- 
 rect ytrngnostioalion of the future, 
 the only person for whom the veil 
 which hid the future was withdrawn, 
 for whom the curtain was lifierl that 
 ho mitfht looiv ujion i'uturity — " look 
 upon tl'-c h'.'ods of time ami loll uiiich 
 gruiii should germinate and which tail " 
 — w:'.- <he hon. the Finai'.eo Ministc!'. 
 But that hon. gentleman said What he 
 (Mr. Plumb) should prestMUly quote, a 
 little while before the late Admistra- 
 tion went out of otfico — ami they mu^t 
 take his ultei'ances as those of the 
 Govei-nmotit, because the hon. tlie 
 Prenror had claimod that the hon. 
 the I'inance Mini-iter was acting 
 in accord with him years before 
 he took his position as Finance 
 Minister in the present Government. 
 The words of the hon. gentleman as 
 rej)orteil, M-ere as follows: — 
 
 " Mr. CAUTWuiaiiT (lc-])r<'cated tho mixinp; 
 lip of matters coniiecteil with the Trcnty in 
 this (iiani-'sion, the more so as the firinnciiil 
 statemetit made this afternoon wns one which 
 all iiirml)Hi'3 ought to regard with great 
 ijnititicHtion. We wore all aware that fears 
 hrtd been Hiitertaim-d, when the Ootifederaiion 
 Bcherue was under disciiasioti, that the 
 financial arranjfpments were likely to be a 
 Boiirce of danger to the young nationaliiy, 
 and he, for one, was glad to find those appr'e- 
 
 bensions had been more or less frustrated br 
 the extraordinary expansion which had 
 lately attended the commerce and resources 
 of the country. He considered this was not 
 due to the GoTernment alone, although he 
 was willing to admit that they were entitled 
 to some credit, but that all who supported 
 the scl^eme of Confederation would also 
 claim such credit." 
 
 The hon. the Finance Minister sup- 
 ported the scheme of Confederation, 
 and he was therefore entitled to part 
 of the credit. When the echoes of 
 the speech of the Finance Minister — 
 not then the Finance Minister, but 
 probab'y feeling some prophetic 
 shadowing of the honour that was to 
 fall upon him, namely, that in the near 
 future he would be selected by the Ke- 
 form Administration as their financial 
 authority in this House — had scarcely 
 died away, the hon. the Premier (Mr. 
 Mackenzie) arose and addressed the 
 ^ou^e, and this was his view of 
 the situation. Mr. Mackenzie, the 
 reporter s^ays, ''spoke in the 
 strongest language" — he used strong 
 language in those days; but ho 
 was one of the liefbrm Opposition — 
 ''of the speech of the Minister of Inland 
 Hovcnue, and I'eforred to the course he 
 (Mr. Mackenzie) had ])ursued with 
 re::ard to the subsidies to the various 
 Provinces. He did not look with seri- 
 ous ap))re!iensi()n toany great national 
 cahimity ; but the fmaiiciul jiolicyot the 
 Mini.-^ter of Finance was calculated to 
 bring on a commercial d 
 Again, in 1873, ui)on Mr. 
 Budget 
 made the followin 
 
 '1' 
 
 uciiression, 
 Tilley's 
 
 Budget speech, the present Premier 
 
 reitrarlvs : 
 
 " Mr. Mackknzie said ..jat every one 
 would rejoice at the statements that Ii.id just 
 hopn made, and every one woiild accept all 
 those statements as being perfectly ''accuraVe, 
 unless ](rovi'nte:l From being so by mere 
 iiccident. Me wL^lieii, however, to ask the 
 'ion. gentleman whether, in calculating the 
 iimount of Customs duties, be had included 
 fie(! goods. 
 
 ' Hon. Mr. Tilley said the percentage 
 he had named was for the whole imports 
 entered (or consumption. 
 
 " Mr. Macicrnzii: thought so, and in 
 that cane the statement was quite illusory. 
 (Ine of the principal charges made against 
 him by the member for Vancouver (Sir P. 
 Hiiicks) during the late electoral campaign, 
 wa'» that he and those acting with him poli- 
 tically were Free Traders, and persons likely 
 to be concerned in the reoreaentation of any 
 such city as Hamilton for instance. Bat 
 what would the manufacturers of Hamilton 
 
^ 
 
 ■ay when they learned that there was to be no 
 ehange, no protection, and the policy an- 
 nounced and promise made during the 
 election were not to be carried out ? • * ♦ 
 He did not believe that the Paciiic Rail- 
 way would materially affect Canada, as a 
 means of transporting produce from the 
 West to the East." 
 
 He (Mr. Plumb) wished the House 
 to notice the delightful vagueness of 
 all these statements. They did not 
 advocate a new financial scheme, or a 
 change of the existing systom, but con- 
 tented themselves with the veiy broad- 
 est platitudes, such as were common 
 stock among them when thoy sat on his 
 (Mr. Plumb's) side of the House. If his 
 (Mr. Plumb's) partywere to follow their 
 example — and imitation was tl\o sincer- 
 ost fiatlery — and were to lake a leaf out 
 of the book of the gentlemen ojiposite, 
 they would also adopt vague teiins ; 
 but the}' did not protend to give, and 
 they would not give, any unccrlain 
 utterance with regard to the tiscul and 
 financial management of this country ; 
 tho}'- would gi^-c it in such a way that 
 gentlemen opposite would be entirely 
 satisfied they had nothing to charge 
 his party with in that direction. Jle 
 would now refer to a remark made by 
 the hon. member for West Montreal 
 (Mr. Workman) who, he regretted 
 to observe, was now eor.spicuous by 
 his absence from his seat in lh«i House. 
 Ho wished that gentlemen had been 
 present to listen to him ; but, as 
 his (Ml'. Plumb's) right hon. fri(Mid 
 Sir .lohn Macdonald remarKed, Mr. 
 Workman was like the gentleman 
 who was mentioned in the lotto'' 
 of one of the House oflBcinis read 
 to the House the other day, lie was 
 toujours absrnts — doubtless foi- pruden- 
 tial reasons. He was sorry the hon. 
 member (Mr. Workman) was not 
 present, because he always charuK';! 
 the House Avi'.h his utterances of 
 wisdom, and there was no doubt that, 
 after a fresh interview with his -ook, 
 he would bo able to give the House 
 aome very important information. Mr. 
 Workman said in lb72 : "The House 
 and the countiy ought to be proud of 
 thostatementofthe Finance Minister." 
 Ho (Mr. Plumb) could also quote 
 a sentence from the comments of the 
 hon. member for South Brant (Mr. Pat- 
 erson), on Mr. Tillej^'s Budget speech. 
 That hon. gentleman, who sat behind 
 and above him (Mr. Plumb), was now 
 
 a loud advocate of the Free-trade 
 policy of his leaders, and had com- 
 mended it but a few days ago in a 
 grand oration which went over and 
 through his (Mr. Plumb's) head liko 
 the reverberation of thunder; but, in 
 1873, " he hoped the Government would 
 fulfil the pledge given by the Pi'emier 
 to introduce a protective taritl" in the 
 country." This, however, was in 1873, 
 on the debate on the Budget, and on 
 that occasion the present Finance Min- 
 ister, while congratulating the late 
 Finance Minister (Mr. Tilley) upon his 
 lucid statement, said he considered that 
 too sanguine a view had been taken of 
 the income; but he (Mr. Plumb) did 
 not find any of the searching criticisms 
 upon the financial condition of the coun- 
 try which the hon. gentleman led them 
 to supi)oso ho had always been in the 
 habit of uttering in this House. A 
 fiiw days afterv> M'ds he made that re- 
 markable speecii in which he said: 
 " Whatever 1 ma}' say is but repeating 
 over and over again what you are all 
 familiar with." On tlia'. occasion 
 another gentleman distinguished for 
 his great patriotism, for his atlhercnce 
 to high principles, and lor other quali- 
 ties which he would not mention, also 
 addressed the House. This was the 
 member for East Middlesex, Mr. David 
 Glass. " He (Mr. Glass) felt it his duty, 
 as an Upper Canadian with strong 
 foelings of patriotism, to express 
 his entiredisapprobation of the attempt 
 to throw odium on the Finance Minis- 
 ter and the distingui-he I leader of tho 
 Government. " These were the utler- 
 ancos of hon. gentlemen in ISTJJ. Up 
 to that time the shadow of a cloud 
 had not i'allen upon the country; 
 the present h^inance Minister had 
 male his prophecy, but nothing had 
 coinoofit. llowcver, in IRTf, as tho 
 mouth-piece of a new Administration 
 the Finance Minister (Mr. Cartwright) 
 nnvle his first Bmlget speocli. It was 
 a speech full of gloom and darkness 
 and distrust, and tho country was 
 alarmed and disturbed by his ])redie- 
 tions of the evil to come, lie brought 
 down to tho House an enormous agu;ro- 
 gate of Rstimates ti^- 1874-5, and tt> add 
 to that Budget, he brought down Sup- 
 plementary Estimates for the current 
 year 1873-4 of a magnitude never pre- 
 viously brought before the House of 
 
12 
 
 Commons. He (Mr. PJu^b) wished 
 at thiH point to claim the attention of 
 the House for a few minutes, while he 
 spoke of a peculiar feature in this 
 . unusual action of the Finance Minister. 
 A great deal deponded.in all the present 
 examinations into the financial affairs 
 of this country upon the position which 
 the countiy was in at the time, when 
 the hon. the Finance xMinister took the 
 mana^rement of its finances. He 
 brought down a statement showing 
 What the ex])enditure of 1874-.5 would 
 De, and, in doing .so, stated that the 
 (xovernraent had been forced by the 
 ^gislation of 1873 to make an inoi- 
 mou.s addition to the current expendi- 
 tuie of the country. But he made one 
 very remarkable statement, which 
 attracted great attention in the House 
 and ,„ the country. He sai.l, in effect : 
 lou cannot expect that, even with 
 the great commitments of our prcde- 
 ces.>ors pressing upon us a,,,! starinir 
 n« in the face, I .hall cut down 
 the expenditure of the Department of 
 njy .on. fnend (he Minisi.r of Public 
 VV orks. hven in view of the teniblo 
 disasters which were about to fall on 
 the country, (he nresent depression in 
 trado, the decline in the revenue, 
 the increase of indebtedness, they 
 could not expect him t/> do this. 
 Why that was one of tl:e directions 
 above all others in which the exi.en- 
 dii inc. niglu have iK-onndi.coJ. There 
 must have been many public works 
 
 upon winch, with g.vatpropnetv and 
 without (Jisadvanlagn to the countrv, 
 the oxncnditme might nave been .lis. 
 
 pcllSod will,, o, o-.v.-ltly vcdliccd Ulltil 
 
 some more loriuiKitc condition of 
 atbuis enabled the country to go on 
 jvuli them. Although it was o"e of 
 the most important, it was one of the 
 easiost JJepa.imenis u regulate; pro- 
 vided, always, that it vvas not olor- 
 riddcn with political cousideiMtions, 
 which prevented it liom bei .g properly 
 dealt with. It might have been (he 
 pressiue from the oiilsitle of hungry 
 partisan contractors, which made ti .) 
 finance .Minislcr unwilling or unable 
 to deal wi(h It. He brou-ht, down 
 Supplementary Estimates whiuh were 
 to be added to the expenditure of the 
 current year 187;]-4. an.l, with more 
 ingenuity tlu;:; candour, chnrged (hem 
 against his predecessor, Mr. Tilhy. 
 
 These Supp'ementary Estimates were 
 double the amount — he might almost 
 say three times the amount— ot any 
 that had ever been brought down. 
 They amounted to nearly twenty- 
 five hundred thousand dollars. Mr. 
 Tilley stated, in his Budget speech 
 the year before, that the Supplementary 
 Estimates made necessary by the legis- 
 lation of 187 ', would be somewhere 
 about fifteen hundred thousand dollars. 
 The system of bringing down large 
 Supplementary Estimates was pernici- 
 ous; it was one that should not be tol- 
 eratel to any large extent ; one that 
 should not be resorted to, except under 
 circumstances of weighty consideration. 
 It was very evident that no Parliament 
 could have control over the finances of 
 a countiy if, after having voted an 
 expenditure that must be adopted, 
 item by item, in full view of the 
 current receipts of the country and its 
 finarcial condition, they should be 
 called upon to pass amounts which had 
 been added to the expenditure of the 
 ])revious year. He (Mr. Plumb) did not 
 say this to condemn any Governmetit, 
 but he said it was a bad system, a 
 pernicious system, and one that ought 
 not to he indulged in. In this he (Mr. 
 Plumb) was sustained by the authority 
 of Mr. Ghvlstone in his evidence before 
 the Committee of Public Accounts in 
 lHf)2. If there was an item of the 
 Supplementary P]sti mates of 1873-4 
 whii-h could properly be placed in the 
 Hsti mates of 1874-5 the Finance 
 Minister was fidso to his duty 
 if he (lid not put it there, or if 
 ho refrained from doing so for 
 the purpose of a temporary triumph 
 over the gentleman who was his 
 predecessor, or for the sake of mislead- 
 ing a newly-electod House, not familiar 
 with ])ul)lic affairs. If the hon. the 
 Finance Minister did that for the sake 
 of obtaining a political triumph, for 
 nakinir a point which was more or 
 loss objectionable against his prede- 
 cessor, it ought to deprive him of the ' 
 conridenco of the financial world. The i 
 nan who held the position of Finance 
 Minister of Canjula should bo above 
 party considorad iis, and should never 
 allow himself to i.. lulgo in those party 
 utterances marked by party prejudices 
 which might be nermitted, although 
 objectionable, in his colleagues. He 
 
13 
 
 ongbt tx) stand apuvt,aiid to hold himself 
 above and aloof from party squabbles, 
 in order to hold the confidence of the 
 country, and ho could not command that 
 confidence if his power was used for 
 
 Srty purposes or party triumphs. Ho 
 ir. Plumb) had already given his au- 
 ority upon this question ofsupplemeu- 
 taiy Estimates. Mr, Gladstone — who, 
 apart from the erratic (conduct 
 -which he had displayed during the last 
 few months, held and deserved to hold 
 a high place in all matters of finance in 
 England — gave evidence in 1862 before 
 the Public Accounts Committee of the 
 House of Commons to this effect : 
 "Supplementary Rstimates are one of 
 the greatest evils that the House could 
 endure." The objection urged against 
 them by Mr, Gladstone, and which he 
 had repeatedly pressed upon Parlia- 
 ment, was "that he regarded such 
 Estimates with great jealousy . Though 
 very plausible in theory, he thought • 
 that no practice tended so much to 
 defeat the efficacy of Parliamen- 
 tary control as the easy resort to 
 Supplementary Estimates. To render 
 this control effectual, it was necessary 
 that the House of Commons should 
 have the money transactions of the 
 year presented in one mass, without 
 which the House would not know where 
 it was." This House had constantly 
 this evil presented to them by a Reform 
 Government, and now, while they were 
 taking the current year's expenditure, 
 and were told that in certain items 
 there was a large reduction, they had 
 better wait until they got to the end of 
 it, and see what additions were 
 brought down in the Supplementary 
 Estimates, in order that they might 
 know what the aggregate was, and 
 then they could judge better and more 
 intelligently as to the expenditure of 
 the year in comparison with that of 
 the years which preceded it. Of course, 
 it might be, and it was necessary 
 frequently to bring down Supplemen- 
 tary Estimates. It was necessary in 
 1873 ; the legislation made it necessary. 
 But this was not the case in 1874. 
 Prom the Schedule A of the Supple- 
 mentary Estimates of 1874, he would 
 read from among other itcras and 
 things— '' Militia, Police Force in 
 Manitoba, «GO,OnO;" "Hudson Bay 
 Company, 129,000." Admitting that 
 
 this latter was a proper charge, it did 
 not belong to that year at all, but to 
 the previous year, and it should not 
 have been used to swell the abnormally 
 largo expenditure of 1873-4. Then 
 there was the Red River Road, 
 construction and working expenses 
 $235,000. Ho should like to know 
 how much of that expenditure accrued 
 out of arrangements with contractors. 
 
 Me. MACKENZIE: Not one dollar. 
 
 Mr. PLUMB: I did not say what 
 the eontracts were. I think the hon. 
 the Premier is rather premature in his 
 remark; this would seem to be a sore 
 subject with him. 
 
 Mr. MACKENZIE: If my hon. 
 friend will allow me, I may state that 
 the whole of that amount was expend- 
 ed before the present Government 
 came into office. 
 
 Mr. plumb said then a good deal 
 of it was spent during the troubles in 
 Manitoba, and it was spent for a legiti- 
 mate purpose. Ho did not insinuate 
 that it was spent for anything else, 
 but the hon. the Prime Minister seemed 
 to feel it rather a sore point. He 
 should show something further with 
 regard to the Red River Route by-and- 
 bye. The increase before stated be- 
 tween 1868 and 1873 was as follows : In 
 items of the accounts open in 1868, 
 grouped together for conveniejico and 
 condensation, they found an increase 
 in the following : — 
 
 Civil Government, Justice, Police, 
 
 Penitentiaries and Legislation 
 
 Geological Survey, Arts, Statistics 
 
 and Census 
 
 Immigration, Quarantine and Marine 
 
 Hospitals 
 
 Pensions and Superannuations 
 
 Ucean and River Steam Service and 
 
 Lighthouae and Coast Service. ... 
 
 Fisheries 
 
 Miscellaneous Expenses 
 
 Customs 
 
 Excise 
 
 Culling Timber 
 
 Post Office Department 
 
 Public Works, Construction 
 
 do Revenue 
 
 $780,712 
 
 122,196 
 
 303,690 
 64,474 
 
 500,234 
 
 46,675 
 
 9,709 
 
 181), 996 
 
 127,996 
 
 13,478 
 
 770,468 
 
 1,699,732 
 
 1,763,393 
 
 TiicBo iUiiuo loguilici uuiouDted to $8,668, 358 
 
 In addition to the above appeared 
 the following items in 1873-4, which 
 
u 
 
 wore not in tho accounls of 18GT-8, 
 namely: — 
 
 Indian Grants ezpenditare $146,606 
 
 Dominion Lands 283,163 
 
 do Forces, Manitoba 409,768 
 
 Organization N -W. Territory 12,262 
 
 U. S. Boundary Surrey 79,293 
 
 Military Stores 144,906 
 
 Manitoba Settlers 69,330 
 
 Amounting in all to $1,144,790 
 
 All the above sums amounted to 
 Sy, 813,496, and upon those the Finance 
 Minister and his colleagues and backers 
 based their charges against tho 
 Mnancial administration of the late 
 Government and their defence of their 
 own lamentable failures — failures 
 which could no longer be concealed or 
 palliated, and which had caused 
 general anxiety to be felt throughout 
 tho country. The increases occurred 
 during a period of constantly augment- 
 ing obligations arising out of the 
 arrangements of Confederation, the 
 admission of new membei's to the Con- 
 federacy and tho formation of a Province 
 in the North-West Territory. The 
 receipts dui'ing the seven years from 
 Customs increased nearly 70. per cent. ; 
 from Excise 85 per cent. ; from the 
 Post-Offico 100 per cent. On these 
 three items alone the increased rece.pts 
 were about nine millions of dollars. 
 Prosperity so unexampled during a 
 period of decreasing taxation was a 
 sufficient justification ofa liberal outlay, 
 notwithstanding which, an aggregate 
 of nearly twelve millions of the surplus 
 revenue was applied to works charge- 
 able to capital account and to 
 a sinking fund. They, on his side 
 of the Ht)use, were willing, and 
 had always been willing, to accept 
 tho expenditure of the year 
 1873-4 as the one by which they 
 were willing to comjiare their admin- 
 istration of alfairs with that of the 
 present Government, by which ihey 
 were willing to test their economy; by 
 which they were willing to test, item 
 by item, the expenditure of public 
 money, providing they were dealt 
 fairly with as regarded 1874. For 
 they were not willing to accept items 
 which had been added by tho present 
 Government since they came into 
 power in the Supplementary Estimates 
 for 1873-4, brought in by Mr. Cart- 
 wright ; items not contemplated by 
 
 I Mr. Tilloy when he made up his Bud- 
 get in 1873, and brought in bis financial 
 measures of that j'ear, or resulting 
 from those measures; and he might 
 say that no one had ventured to ques- 
 tion the clearness and fairness of tho 
 statement made by Mr. Tilley. What- 
 ever might be Mr. Til ley's opinion a» 
 to the sources of future revenue ; what- 
 ever might be his opinion as to the 
 iwwcr of the country to sustain ihis 
 large expenditure which seemed to be 
 inevitable; whatever might have been 
 his opinions upon the past, present or 
 prospective financial position, he could 
 have no objecl whatever in increasing 
 or diminishing the actual statement of 
 facts which he had to bring before ihe 
 House in his Budget speech. Mr. Tilloy 
 was a member of the party then in 
 power that came to the House with a 
 clear and sufficient working majority, 
 after passing through the election of 
 1872, and there was no indication in the 
 spring of 1873 which should have in- 
 fluenced Mr. Tilley in preparing his 
 statement to gain any political advan- 
 tage even if he were capable of being so 
 'influenced. The statement had been 
 prepared long before Parliament met, 
 because it did not meet until the month 
 of April that 3'ear, if he rememl)ered 
 rightly. There was no reason, from 
 Mr.Tillay's knowledge ot thecountiyV 
 affairs, to lead him to suppose that 
 any change was imminent, and, 
 therjfore, until he (Mr. Plumb) 
 had better evidence, he should 
 take his stand upon the financial state- 
 ment of Mr. Tilley ; and he trusted the 
 time would come when his hon. friend 
 tho Finance Minister could no longer 
 express regret, in making his Budget 
 statements, that he had no hon. gentle- 
 men on the opposite side of the House 
 0^' sufficient financial ability to discuss 
 them, for he (Mr. Plumb) ventured 
 to hope that, if the hon. the Finance 
 Mi lister continued to represent his 
 cou Jtry in Parliament, Mr. Tilley 
 might,at some future day,confront him 
 here in this House ; and he ventured to 
 predict that the statement he (Mr. 
 Plumb) had made in Mr. Tilley's 
 defence would be fully borne out by 
 tlmt gentleman himself. He would 
 say this further. Ho had read, with 
 astonishment, tho statement of the 
 Finance Minister, made in public, with 
 
 V 
 
 u 
 
u 
 
 regai-d to tlio administration of affairs 
 in 1873-4, and ho should be justified in 
 bringing it before the Hou^e even if it 
 had not been referred to in the very 
 firet debate following tho meeting of 
 this Parliament. The hon. member 
 said that he had often asked himself 
 whether, in the spi-ingof i^'7H-4, tho.-c 
 gentleman were not like ii drunken ci ow 
 which had burst into the spirit loom 
 and were endeavourinf; to scuttle tlie 
 ship. Was that the languji^e that shciuld 
 come from a man who had charge ol 
 the finance9,and to whom was entiusted 
 the delicate operation of making loans, 
 and of meeting the great iinancieis 
 of England ? Could he go there wiih 
 such a report of such an utterance u|i()ii 
 record ? Jf there had been the slighi- 
 est foundation forany hostile cri.icisni. 
 it should not have taken such a shape. 
 One might havesupposed thalthohon. 
 gentleman himself had been ashamed 
 of his utterances, were they not dolil)e- 
 rately published weeks after they wcve 
 made, and had they not then boine the 
 impress of having been carefully con- 
 sidered, revised and conected, probably 
 under the auspices of the hon. gentle- 
 man himself. lie (Mr. Plumb) could 
 say, with truth, that no provocation, 
 however great, could have jusiitled a 
 responsible Minister of the Dominion of 
 Canada in using such language. But 
 there had been no provocation. The 
 present Opposition had contented them- 
 selves with criticizing the affairs of the 
 Government, as they had the right lo 
 do, in a spirit which was perfectly 
 proper and justifiable. They had 
 critcized the public acts of the Govei'n- 
 ment, the public record of the Govern- 
 ment, the - practice versus the pro- 
 fessions of the so-called Eefbrm Admin- 
 istration. They had aiigbt to compare 
 the previous promises of thof^e gentle- 
 men with their present position ; to 
 take up the record and see whether 
 these hon. gentlemen had kept their 
 promises to the countiy ; and they 
 would be recreant to the duty entrusted 
 to Her Majesty's lojal Opi»osition if 
 they did not criticize carefully, scan 
 carefully, scrutinize caiefully, word 
 after woi-d, figure after figure, every- 
 thing jippertaining to the interests of 
 the couniry, so long as they confined 
 themselves to a liair, lionest, open, 
 juBt, candid examination of the position. 
 
 Yet, for this, they were abused on 
 every ])latform in the countrj' upon 
 which tho Ministi-y had appeared, 
 hounded in the newspapers, pursued 
 by vituperation and detraction such as 
 he (Mr. Plumb) had never before 
 known in this country to have been 
 ])Oured on the heads of politicians, and 
 lie had lived in Canada many years 
 amid much >tri;oand party bitterness, 
 lie could only say that nothing in the 
 legislaiion of 1873-4 justified the 
 uiifivourable Ci'iticism of the lion, the 
 Finance Minister, bul that it should 
 rather challenge his admiration, as 
 -bowing the iar-reaching statesnian- 
 ^hip, the prudence, the forecast, a? d the 
 judgment of the men wtio had been 
 enl lusted, year alter year, with the 
 govcrnmeni of this countiy, and to 
 whom the country owed, in a large 
 measure, that proi-perity which had 
 exi.sled up to the time that hon. gentle- 
 men opposite took the management of 
 its altairs, up to that evil day when 
 the admiiiistration tell into their feeble 
 hands, lie had been looking over the 
 Statutes of 1873, and had failed lo find 
 in tho.-e Statutes any thing which 
 justified the criticism of the hon. the 
 Finance Ministei-or his colleagues upon 
 the legislation of that Session ; and he 
 had failed to find anything that did 
 not grow legitimately out of the neces- 
 sities of the situation. Was there any 
 fair objection to, or could there beany 
 unfavourable criticism on, the readjust- 
 ment of the subsidies ? It was apurely 
 proper financial transaction. It was 
 tound that the subsidies ha<i been 
 placed upon a basis which was proved 
 incorrect; it was found necessary, upon 
 a reconsideration of the principle on 
 which the subsidies were fixed, that, 
 in the interests of justice, in order to 
 carry out the principles and the spirit 
 of (yonfederation, these subsidies should 
 be readjusted. It was also perfectly 
 fair and proper that New Brunswick 
 should have the compensation which 
 was due to her for the surrender of her 
 export duties under the stipulations of 
 the Treaty of Washington, The read- 
 justment had been accepted by a large 
 majority of the Uouse,and those propo- 
 sitions which became law in 1873 were 
 jtassed b}' this House, upon a fair, open 
 debiito, and he failed to find anything 
 in the records or debates of that day 
 
N 
 
 which justified any such language, or 
 any approach to such language, as had 
 been used by the hon. the Finance 
 Minister for the purpose of gaining a 
 paltry political advantage, which was 
 sure to bo reversed the very instant 
 thfc rays of the lantern of truth would 
 be ilashed upon it. He failed to llnd 
 any justification for Oi^e single word 
 uttered upon the public platforms, con- 
 demnatory of the acts of the hon. 
 gentleman's predecessors. The only 
 truth that could bo found at the bottom 
 of all their outcry wafa, that it con- 
 firmed the saying that 
 
 "In a crowd of rogues, the chief 
 
 Is he, who loudest cries, ' Stop Thief.' " 
 
 It was because the hon. gentlemen on 
 the Treasury benches were conscious 
 that, in their administration of public 
 affairs,they had been guilty of departing 
 from every principle which they had 
 enunciated to the country before they 
 went into office. That wjuj the reason of 
 those violent tirades which could not 
 pass for argument, which might bo all 
 very well addressed to a mixed crowd 
 at a political picnic, but which woul '. 
 not bear close and clear investigation 
 before a body constituted like the 
 Parliament of the Dominion, even 
 though its majority supported the hon. 
 gentlemnn, from whom, though the 
 Opposition did not expect justice, 
 they expected to obtain a candid hear- 
 ing, and to force a.jnst judgment, even 
 from those who had been characterized 
 as the mechanical majority of the other 
 side. But there wore men who rose 
 above party considei-ations; who, occa- 
 sionally, at least, had a spasm of patriot- 
 ism, and who would listen to arguments. 
 One of the arguments in justification 
 of the predecessors of the hon. gentle- 
 men opposite, upon whom the pre.-sent 
 Administration put all the sins of the 
 decalogue, was that, during the legis- 
 lation of 18*73, which occasioned all 
 the increase of expenditure of 187H-4 
 which could fairly be charged upon it, 
 they had done nothing not absolutely 
 justifiable in the interests of the coun- 
 try, and absolutely laudable in those 
 interests. The party of the Opposition 
 stood upon their past record, and were 
 willing to go to the country and 
 appeal to that record, and compare 
 it with that of the last four years 
 
 during which the Administration eft 
 affairs had been in the hands of those 
 gentlemen who had stated, on entering 
 office, that they intended .0 elevate the 
 standard of public morality. If the 
 hon. the Finance Minister had really 
 believed his own predictions, if he had 
 really believed that the legislation of ] 
 ISYS was the profligate act of a crew 
 that had broken into the spirit room 
 and were about to scuttle the ship, to 
 use his own language, it was his duty 
 to shorten sail and keep off the lee 
 shore, lie came into power, being 
 assured in his own mind that there 
 would be a deficit, assured from his 
 own view of things, from the con- 
 clusions which ho had drawn, that it 
 was necessary to take in double reefs, 
 to curtail the public expenditure in 
 all directions ; and he (Mr. Plumb) 
 ventured to say that, if his predecessor, 
 Mr. Tilley, had been at the helm at 
 that time, he would have done exactly 
 as Sir John Kose did when he found 
 there was to be a deficit; he would 
 have prepared for it either by readjust- 
 ing the tariff in such a way as to produce 
 more revenue, or by reducing the ex- 
 penditure. But his hon. friend the 
 Finance Minister prepared for it by 
 increasing the expenditure ; he pre- 
 pared to go on in the same course as 
 that which he had characterized as 
 profligate, which he had said was that 
 of a drunken crew who were scuttling 
 the ship ; he prepared to lend a hand 
 at the scuttling, not to try and get the 
 ship into harbour. No, he found the 
 spii-it room and he thought it advisable 
 to take his grog and his chance with 
 the rest— and so he did. He imposjd 
 taxation on the country which, he 
 said, would meet the probable expen- 
 diture. Instead of that, the Dominion 
 h.\d had nothing but deficit and 
 disaster since the hon. the Finance - 
 Minister took the helm. His 
 taxes, which were to have raised 
 the revenue to three million dollars,., 
 left us with a deficiency of two millions;, 
 a growing deficiency, to which now 
 nearly two millions must be added. 
 And how did he propose to meet it ? 
 Mr. Tilley had said, " the principle of 
 increasing the public expenditure 
 without, at the same time, providing 
 for it, either by anticipated increase of 
 revenue or by taxation, is an unsound 
 
IT 
 
 )ne, one which would brinj^ discredit- 
 ipon the financier of any country.' ' Mr- 
 Cilley proposed to ileal with that ques 
 ion, not in the year 1H73, beoaui^e there 
 irould bo a Kuiplus of tionie $750,000 for 
 that year, and of $913,151 for the suc- 
 ceeding year, which would cover the 
 $1,500,000 then pic.posod to be added 
 to the public bunions. But, after 
 those periods, Mr. Tilley proposed to 
 (deal with the public expenditure, and 
 to deal with it in tlio cliiociion of pro- 
 tecting the industries of the coun- 
 try. Mr. Tilley had said it was not 
 necessary, in view of iho surplus of 
 that year and oC the year 1874, that 
 any new taxation should be imposed. 
 iButhe (Mr. Plumb) vontureil to say 
 that, if Mr. Tilley had had the direc- 
 tion of public atlairs, if ho had seen 
 ■what was manifest vvhon the panic be- 
 gan in the month .)f September, 1873, 
 if he had soon thai it w;is unavoidable 
 that the Dominion would be reached 
 by that wave which had swept over 
 the United States, which had stricken 
 England, anc^ wbich bail threatened to 
 engulf the whole of the comincice aiid 
 industries of the civili/.od world in 
 common ruin ; if he had seen all this, 
 he (Mr: Plumb) did not thinU he would 
 have said, "You cannot expect mo to 
 reduce the expenditure of my hon. 
 friend the Minister of Public Works; 
 to do anything except to go on 
 in the way of our profligate 
 predecessors and increat^o the public 
 oxpondituro in every direction." He 
 (Mr. Plumb) did not believe in tho 
 paltry show of economy in the financial 
 ^ statement and Kstimates of this year 
 ; jwid the next. He wanted to invest i- 
 r aate tho Estimates and the expendi- 
 " turo, and see whether it was an honest 
 . economy; whether it was an absolute 
 ■■ and permanent reduction of controllable 
 V expenditure, or whethei- it was merely 
 u! a sham retrenchment for ulterior pur- 
 § poses and, for the tinie being, starving 
 m some great item wliich would have to 
 » call for added exix'udituie hereafter, 
 probably a double expend i Lure, on 
 account of tho false economy which had 
 reduced it in order to make a point in 
 tho current Kstimato-. When this had 
 [ been looked into, and when it wasnscer- 
 : tained that the Finance Minisier'astate- 
 I ments havl stood tho test of close scru- 
 Itiny, and. had no Supplemental Esti- 
 
 mates to add to tho expenditure of the 
 current year or of tho next, it would 
 be time to congratulate tho Sovern- 
 raer.t on its economy ; but, until then, 
 ho should not do so. Every one know 
 how easy it was to mislead tho public 
 with ma.sses of figures. Ho knew the 
 statement had gone abroad, with regard 
 to the expenditure of 1873, that the 
 late Government had ontored into 
 obligations amounting to 6 \ J 1,000,000. 
 What did tho items consist .f? Among 
 them was thirty millions ibr the Pa- 
 cific Railway. Tho Pacific Railway 
 expenditure was guarded by the express 
 provision that tho public burdens 
 should not be augmented <^r unduly 
 increased by the proposed subsidy of 
 thirty millions of dollars, and nobody 
 knew that better than the hon. gentle- 
 men on tho other side. That principle 
 was affirmed, almost word for word, 
 by tho hon.member for West Middlesex 
 two yeai's ago, accepted by the llouso, 
 and perfectly well understood. But 
 the lute Government did not commence 
 the building of the Pacific Railway. 
 It was taken out of iheir hands. The 
 thirty million dollar ^ubsidy could 
 have' been no burden on tho 
 hon. th'> Finance Minister, because tho 
 very in^tant that gentleman and his 
 friends came into' power, under tho 
 tyrannical rule of that gro:it majunty 
 which the Finance Minister had at his 
 back, new propositions, entirely^ at 
 variance with tho plan' of the old Gov- 
 ernment, were taken up and hurried 
 through the House at half past three 
 in the morning; propositions which 
 had not only reversed tho whole scheme 
 of th'.; late Government, hut had com- 
 mitted the country to so vast an out- 
 lay, that no man in the House could 
 measure it, instead of the limited sura 
 of thirty million dollars, which the 
 late Government wore justified in 
 promising as a subsidy in the then state 
 of public opinion with regard to rail- 
 way matters, which had since been 
 greatly modified by tho panic of 1873, 
 and by the failure of the great enter- 
 prises through the world. The hon. the 
 Finance Minister had no right to 
 throw that in as an item of tho bur- 
 dens, because ho relieved himself from 
 it tho first opportunity, and adopted a 
 worse plan. Then, ho said, in addition 
 to that, there wore forty-one million 
 
li. 
 
 :%t'!'- ' 
 
 dollai'B of public debt which was to 
 fall due, :incl the roncwi.l of which had 
 to bo arranged i'ov. And ho addei 
 tlmf amoiinl to the public burden, and 
 he made jicoplc believe, peoj^le who 
 had not lliat aptitude for simple addi-. 
 tion which he had stated every Sena- 
 tor ought to have, that the renewal 
 forty-one million lollars, which was a 
 mere ordinary business transaction, the 
 changing of one security for another, 
 was an additional burden thrown upon 
 his shoulders by his ])rodecessors. It 
 was the most natural thing in the world 
 to re-borrow for that maturing debt ; it 
 did not create a ripple in the iinancial 
 world to have that debt renewed ; it 
 did not create a new obligation, but 
 was merely an adjustment of the old 
 debt, which he had etibcted at a low 
 rate of inteiest. These items were 
 seven ty-one millions out of the 
 $131,000,000. Ifc (Mr. Plumb) had 
 taken up the expenditure of this 
 Government since they came into 
 power, ujion those works to which 
 they said the profligacy of the previous 
 Administration committed them, and 
 ho had suniined it up and know how 
 much had been expended. He 
 had the hon. the Finance Minister's 
 own statemei t in his Budget speech 
 as to how much more would be required, 
 and he failed to find in the aggregate 
 anything like thesum of $131,000,000. 
 Mr. Cartwriylit now stated that 
 he required foi- the enlargement of 
 the canals, the Pacific liailway Survey, 
 and for carrying out all the 
 obligations which were upon his hands, 
 a certain sum. It was not a very vast 
 affair, it would not ruin anybody, oven 
 in the present condition of the country, 
 if they were proj)er expenditures to be 
 made in the interests of the country ; 
 and, he ventured to say, there was not 
 a man in this House who would not 
 willingly vote the money, despite the 
 deficits which had arisen out of the in- 
 competent financiering of thoMinister 
 of Finance. He had only to look at 
 the statement to seo the utter fallacy 
 of the whole reasoning, which had been 
 built up in order to condemn the 
 previous Government in respect to the 
 management of their Finance Min- 
 ister. Mr. Cartv^n'ight's statement in 
 that direction had been so mislead- 
 ing and fallacious that it was 
 
 difficult to put confidence in it in 
 any other. He would now refer 
 to another point upon which the 
 hon. the Finance Minister was mislead- 
 ing the country, perhaps not knowing- 
 ly, but the country had been misled 
 by his assertion that he had relieved the 
 public burdens largely in the reduction 
 of interest upon the public debt. 
 Almost one-half of the hon. the 
 Finance Minister's Budget speech of 
 last year and of the year before con- 
 sisted in his exculpation of himself 
 fi'om blame, in regard to tho loans 
 which he had floated in tho English 
 market. He had made the most 
 astounding statement bust winter that 
 the four por cent, loan of 1876, 
 £2,500,000 sterling, had been made at 
 a moment so auspicious, so well justifi- 
 ed, so exactly in tho nick of time, that 
 if ho had delayed a few days in pre- 
 senting it to the public, there would 
 have been a loss, to use his own words 
 in one of his picnic speeches, of 
 " several per cent." He talked of" seve- 
 ral per cent," on a loan of such magni- 
 tude— why, one per cent, was $125,000 : 
 but that was a trifle. There were no 
 such fluctuations as several per cent, in 
 the value of good public .securities, and 
 there ought to bo none in tho public 
 securities of Canada. At the same 
 time that the hon. the Finance Minis- 
 ter told tho people that that loan had 
 been floated at a moment which was 
 the only time when it could have been 
 floated with tho success which had 
 attended it ; at the very time he made 
 that statement on the floor of this 
 House, in the month of February suc- 
 ceeding the dato of negotiating thd 
 loan, South Australia had offered 
 for public competition a loan also bear- 
 ing 'bur per cent, interest, and had 
 rocei 'od from 96 per cent, to 98 per 
 cent, for it ; whereas the Fin- 
 ance Minister's loan, which bad 
 boon so successfully floated, in the 
 "very nick of time," had obtained, when 
 tho allowances made in the way of 
 interest were taken into consideration, 
 not 89 per cent., or, he thought, 88^ 
 per cent, was nearer the mark. Now, 
 it might be that the great Dominion 
 of Canada had not reached tho height 
 of credit which South Australia had 
 attained ; it might bo that some of the 
 utterances of the hon. the Finance 
 
I Minister hnd not tended to increase 
 [the public contidence in the present or 
 [future financial position of Canada ; 
 jit might be that the people of England 
 had obtained ii glimpse of the " brazen " 
 ^iilo of the .sliittld which the hon. the 
 Finance .Miniistor habitu.illy presented 
 to the people of Canada, ,vhile he pre- 
 sented to the confiding eapitalists of 
 London only the silver side ; and 
 again, it might be that the credit of 
 this country had not attained the 
 height to which its groat resources 
 entitled it. If that were the ca^e, he 
 did not think it would be iieccssar}' 
 lo look farther for reasons than to the 
 unsound utterances of the gentlemen 
 who had sought to degrade tlio position 
 ■of Canada for the sake of throw- 
 ing obloquy upon their political pre- 
 decessors. In connection with the 
 statement that the public burdens 
 had been decreased, he (Mr, Plumb) 
 would say this : that upon the loan 
 which had been made at four per 
 cent., the money received into 
 the Treasury was not, by nearly 
 eleven per cent., the amount which 
 Canada was represented to owe ; that 
 into the public Treasury, out of 
 the loan of $12,500,000, came but 
 $11,100,000; a discount of $1,400,000 
 or thereabouts, and there had been 
 nothing gained by it. A five 
 per cent, loan, having the same period 
 to run ; if it could be floated on 
 the London market a" 195, or 5 per 
 cent, premium, which he (Mr. Plumb) 
 did not think wouid have been an 
 extravagant price, if Canada had the 
 credit on the Loudon market which 
 she ought to have, and would have 
 had, but for the representations that 
 had been made on the floor of the 
 House and elsewhere, — such a loan, 
 by having thirty years to run, would 
 have represented 4f per cent, interest 
 to lender and borrower. A 4 per cent, 
 loan sold within a fraction of 89 
 
 ger cent., the price obtained by Mr. 
 artwright, would have yielded exactlj' 
 4£ per cent. also. There was no advan- 
 tage in getting u low rate of interest 
 at a sacrifice of the principal, except 
 to boast of to those who did not know, 
 when they looked at figures, what 
 figures meant. Besides, these loans 
 have been made for the purpose of 
 prosecuting public works and in order 
 to get capital into the country, and 
 the reduQtlQ wi a'jsurdwa \{Qi\l.\ be 
 
 made by stating that, suppofting the 
 Finance Minister had made a 3 per 
 cent, loan, ho could have boasted still 
 more. Now, a 3 yer cent, loan, to 
 pay 4f per cent, interest, would have 
 to be sold at 73 per cent. ; and we 
 would be a loser of 27 per cent, of 
 immediate capital, leaving us but 
 $9,125,000 as the proceeds of a loan of 
 $12,500,000; and, with equal pro- 
 jriety, the Finance Minister might 
 lave boasted of reducing the rate of 
 interest. Had the hon. the Finance 
 Minister sold a 5 per cent, loan at 105 
 ])er cent., he would not only have 
 received 11 or 12 per cent, more, but 
 the premium of say 5 per cent, also — 
 10 per cent., in all. of present capital. 
 And on a loan of $10,000,000 at 5 per 
 cent, ho «rould have got $1,600,000 
 more money than he did on that at 4 
 per coift., and would hcve been 
 none the poorer as to the 
 rate of interest ; and on the loans 
 he had made at 4 per cent., 
 which ho was congratulating the coun- 
 try upon, there had been no saving of 
 interest as compared with a 5 percent. 
 at 105; and in the aggregate of 4 per 
 cent, loans negotiated by the Finance 
 Minister, the country had lost imme- 
 diate capital to the amount of upwards 
 of five million dollars. The country 
 would scarcely bo prepared for such a 
 statement as he (Mr. Plumb) was mak- 
 iiig, but the proof was irrefragable ; the 
 state .iient he had made in regard to 
 the loan at 4 per cent. — namely, that, 
 although nominally at 4 per cent., it 
 cost us 4J — was one which ho could 
 establish by calculation, and for its 
 jiroof ho could refer to the highest 
 authority, to the antliority which 
 was accepted everywhere iii iho 
 largest loan transactions in the 
 United States with regard to 
 making investments of long date upon 
 public securities. He made that state- 
 ment, and was willing to assume all its 
 responsibility. Therefore, the loans of 
 which they had heard so much were 
 merely nominally 4 per cent, loans; 
 they never were really 4 per cent, 
 loans ; they were loans upon which the 
 country paid an equivalent of 4f per 
 cent., taking into account the discount 
 and the intt-rest allowanoes made by 
 the hon. the Finance Minister. He 
 doubted the policy of floating Govern- 
 ment securities at any rate which 
 should compel the ealo of thorn much 
 
20 
 
 under par, or of having quotations made 
 conHtantly, on the London market, of 
 Canadian (securities very much below 
 par. That was, of course, a mere mat- 
 ter of opinion. He doubted the policy 
 of making loans without public tender. 
 No man could aft'ord, in dealing with 
 the finances of the countrj-, to place 
 himself in any position which needed 
 elaborate explanation ; no man making 
 loans, taking the lesponsiblity of 
 choosing his own time, beyond the 
 control of Parliament, and dealing with 
 large sums, wherein a diiference of J 
 per cent, or ^ per cent, represented 
 a fortune, should do so, except in 
 a manner open to the world ; and 
 he should not bo necessitated to 
 give the elaborate and painful explan- 
 ations to be found in the Eudget 
 speeches. The toi-ms upon which 
 loans of that kind should be negotiated 
 were that they should be ottered at 
 the proper time, under proper precau- 
 tions, with a proper regard for tlio 
 condition of the money market; tak- 
 ing advantage, as every financier 
 should do, ot the advice of distin- 
 guished financiers, but not governed 
 completely by them, because a man 
 must act upon his own judgment in 
 such things; he could not rely entirely 
 on the advice or those who might 
 have interents antagonistic to his. He 
 ithould then otter his loan b}^ open ]iub- 
 lic competition to the highest bidder. 
 Other (xovernments did so. France 
 otl'ered her loans to public competition, 
 even in the very worst of the ciisis 
 which followed the disasters in which 
 she was involved and which ended in 
 her distressing humiliation. France 
 thus commanded the confidence of 
 small investors who, even in the worst 
 of limes, ottered four, five, even ton 
 times as much as the loans pro- 
 posed. He (Mr. Plumb) liad 
 had personal experience for many 
 years in the United,. States, pio- 
 vious to his residence in Canada, in 
 this connection, lie had been a lai-ge 
 offerer for loans, and ho knew what he 
 said when he held thai no man, hold- 
 ing a similar position in the United 
 States to that of the Finance Minister 
 of Canada, would have ventured, in 
 former days, to have offered a loan 
 without giving sufficient public notice, 
 without receiving sealed bids, not 
 
 bearing orf the outside the names of 
 the parties bidding, but simply num- 
 bered — carefully opened in the pre- 
 sence of disinterested gentlemen, the 
 contents scrutinized and noted, and the 
 award mado in every case to the 
 highest bidder, so that those who 
 ofi'ered even the smallest fraction above 
 the next liighest price, would get their 
 due consideration, and so throughout. 
 This was the course which should have 
 been pursued. It was one — he was only 
 stating a general principle which 
 should govern us ; and, if the hon. the 
 Finance Minister had not succeeded in 
 getting as high a price for his loan, in 
 that way, ho would not have been 
 blamcabie, because ho would have 
 followed a safe precedent; one that 
 could always be justified, because it 
 would obviate in the j)eople's minds the 
 suspicion of combinations; and all 
 the discussions which had taken 
 place in this : ouse on the subject; 
 would have been unnecessary. And 
 had the hon. the Finance Minister 
 adopted this system, ho (Mr. Plumb) 
 doubted whether the country Avould 
 not have been the gainer. But the 
 course ])ursued placed the borrowei* in 
 this delimma: In the first phice, when 
 a loan was made by Canada, for in- 
 stance, en bloc, without competition, it 
 fell info the hands of the great capita- 
 lists and tlie great bankets, whociistri- 
 butcd it afterwards at their pleasure to 
 smaller investors, making theii* profits 
 upon it. When a second attempt, was 
 made by the same Government to 
 float a loan, the borrower was in the 
 hands of the capitalists who took up the 
 first loan ; he could not get out of 
 their hands, if they chose to make use 
 of their power; they could make a 
 price in the market to suit themselves, 
 it was well known that large loans 
 which vere not constantly dealt in 
 in Lorn hard-street or the Stock Ex- 
 change, could not bo sold by forced 
 sale without greatly depressing the 
 regular price. It was well known 
 the price could be put down at any 
 time by throwing a largo amount on 
 the market. If it had been desirable 
 at all to i5ut a pi-ice on the J'inance 
 Minister's la.st loan, the bioker would 
 say that the last quotation was the 
 price to be taken, and a quotation 
 could be made at any time in the inter- 
 
21 
 
 est of largo loan-mongers. Quotations 
 could be made by men who wanted to 
 get hold of the security at their own 
 prices, and wore interested in depres- 
 sing the price. It required no tinancial 
 skill Jiiul very little financial judg- 
 ment lo float the loan. The 
 condition of the money market in Hng- 
 land during that period and long after- 
 wards, was one which, he ventured to 
 way, despite the postulate taken by the 
 member for North Oxford, was one 
 which inevitably followed a great do- 
 pres.sion. It wan a condition olgi-eiit 
 plethora ; llioro was a sluggishno.sH in 
 the money market, and nothing 
 more unsound was stated by the 
 hon. niembor for North Oxford 
 than the conclusion he attempted to 
 draw that a great plethora of money, 
 a very largo accumulation in the 
 banks, was an evidence of pro^pei-it}'. 
 It was exactly the reverse. The Lon- 
 don Joint Stock Bank and the other 
 banking establishments of London 
 were so loaded with money tliat they 
 had to stop interest on deposits. The 
 banku woie lending money, according 
 to the London quotations, at 1 and 1^ 
 percent, per annum, year after year; 
 and, when the hon. the Finance Minis- 
 ter went to negotiate his loan, the 
 gentlemen who kindly took it 
 could deposit the bonds in the banks 
 and borrow the money at less than one- 
 half the interest they were drawing. 
 Although, if to-day the loan was not 
 quoted at the price which the Finance 
 Minister nominally obtained tor it, 
 there was still a large profit gained by 
 any large subscriber who had held it, 
 for he could have borrowed money on it 
 at half the rate which it yielded, and 
 there was, therefore, a groat difference 
 in his favour in the interest he received 
 and the interest he paid. It was 
 astonishing that it was contended for a 
 moment that there was any merit, 
 financial skill, or peculiar ability, in 
 putting upon the London market, when 
 money ruled as itdid, the comparatively 
 trifling sum borrowed by Canada. At 
 the same time, it was well known that 
 many foreign borrowing countries 
 were falling into diaoredit. That fact 
 did not touch Caaada unfavourably ; 
 did not react upon us ; it opei'ated to 
 our advantage. Turkey, Egypt, Spain, 
 ^Russia, the South American Eopublics, 
 
 and other countries had drawn enor- 
 mous suras of money from Kngiish 
 capitalists. Their loans had boon 
 distributed through England, invohtors 
 being tempted by the high rate of 
 interest offered. The bonds of foreign 
 railway companies had been sold at 
 latort that also promised a very higii 
 rate of interest. But those facts dia 
 not affect the negotiation of the 
 public securities ot the Dominion. 
 On the contrary, the l)anksin England 
 were looking for safer iiivo.straents for 
 their money, which wan lying idle in 
 consequence ')f tlie withdrawal of con- 
 fidence in railway corapunios and wtuit 
 of faith in the countries which had 
 formerly boon the chief hnrrowers, and, 
 when such a state of affairs existed, 
 that was the moment to take advantage 
 of the condition of the money market. 
 The Dominion being part ot' the 
 British Empire, governed according to 
 English law, and, to a great extent, 
 under the control of the traditions and 
 opinions which wore accepted by Eng- 
 land in her financial transactions, any 
 default in the payment of interest on 
 the debt and the provision of f Sinking 
 Fund, was an impossibility, and that 
 atfoi'ded an additional reason wli}- the 
 loan should have been made with more 
 ease and at a higher price than had 
 boon obtained by the hon. the l^inance 
 Minister. If the hon. gentleman had 
 floated a 4 per cent, loan at pai-, there 
 would have been something lo boast of, 
 and he would then have been entitled 
 to make up an account of the amount 
 of interest saved to the countiy. The 
 manner in which that account had 
 been drawn uji — ho did. not i-efer to 
 anything but that special item in the 
 Public Accounts and official documents 
 — in order to hoodwink the people, was 
 ono which would not bear examination, 
 and in making ujk any statement in 
 regard to interest on that loan the rate 
 of interest must be calculated upon the 
 proceeds of the loan, because, by 
 parting with principal, we paid a far 
 higher rate than the nominal rate 
 on the bonds. Yet, for 1 he purpose of 
 obtaining credit in regard to finance, 
 the Government claimed that a 4 per 
 cent, loan could only have beeu 
 negotiated at that critical moment ; 
 that, as the Finance Minister had 
 Htated, it could not have been made a 
 
»ii^ 
 
 iow tlitys l;itor, and Iho people wore 
 told he had roduood the rate of 
 intere^i on the late loans paid 
 by Canada to 4 per cent. He 
 (Mr. Plumb) had clearly shown that 
 the lion, gentleman had brought it 
 down to one-quarter per cent. lo!i«than 
 5 ; piiicticnlly, he had not reduced it 
 at all, for he could have floated a 5 per 
 cent, loan at 105. That was the true 
 itato of the case, and it deprived the 
 Finance Minister ot a good deal of 
 the merit which had been claimed 
 for him as a succesbful tinancicr, 
 clairaeil by his partizans in jjuffing up 
 his financial achievements. It did not 
 lie in the mouth of any hon member to 
 say that, at a time when there was 
 such a plethora of money in the London 
 joint stock banks they could not make 
 profitable loans, that it was deserving of 
 any credit to go with Canadian Govorn- 
 inent securities and obtain a lotm in 
 England. It was decrying the credit of 
 Canada. Itwas placing the Dominion on 
 a very low level to say there was any 
 necessity to have a combination of the 
 great financiers of London to take a 
 j-altry loanof $12,500,000,which was as 
 nothing in the great transactions which 
 took place every day in a country 
 which was of necessity the great fin- 
 ancial centre and the exchange of the 
 world, and where the tendency always 
 was for money to accumulate and lie 
 idle. The House had had a statement 
 showing how the loan had reduced the 
 general rate of interest, and, if the other 
 statements were of a like character, 
 there was little foundation for them. 
 The hon. the Finance Minister had 
 stated that the receipts of the country 
 through the two great sources of I'cv- 
 enue — Excise and Customs — had been 
 for some time declining, but that now 
 it happened they were beginning 
 to revive. Up to the Ist July, 
 the end of the last fiscal yeai', there 
 had been a persistent and continuous 
 decline. If there had been a slight spas- 
 mottio increase, it was due more to the 
 fact that, during the last two or three 
 years, owing to the necessities of the 
 case, in the absolute stagnation of trade 
 the imports had fallen down to a point so 
 absolutely low that it was absolutely 
 necessary, in spite of the hardness of 
 the times and of the gloomy prospect 
 ahead, for traders to replenish their im- 
 povorisUod stocks, ^out he did not 
 
 believe there was any increase which | 
 could be relied upon as an indication 
 of improvement. Ho could not! 
 admit there was any authentic infor-' 
 mation that would lead the House to 
 believe there was the slightest change 
 for the better, in the business situation; 
 hut the hon. the Finance Minister 
 assei tod that there whs an improve- 
 ment, although he was face to face 
 with another deficit, nlthough the 
 Opposition could show by the Public 
 Accounts that the receipts and expen- 
 ditures chai-geable to revenue did not 
 balance within 83,500,000, there being a 
 deficit to that amount, and he declared 
 he had nothing to offer the House forthe 
 purpof^e of making up that deficiency. 
 Some paltry charge upon the expenai- 
 ture he might strike out, some false 
 economy he might propose, but the 
 general policy of the Government was 
 unchanged. He (Mr. Plumb) venture^ 
 to say that nothing conid be more dis- 
 astrous, nothing could bo more unbusi- 
 nesslike, than to permit that state of ' 
 attairs to continue without, in some 
 way oi jinother, attempting to remove 
 the difficulty. The Government caused 
 the first deficiency in the history of 
 Confederation, amounting to $1,900,000, 
 b}' a failure to retrench or to impose 
 taxes. Another deficiency followed it, 
 and another deficiency would occur in 
 the present year, in spite of all the 
 reductions which had taken place am 
 public works, and the exercising of 
 economy, reducing somewhat the pub- 
 lic expenditure which had swollen 
 with tremendous rapidity in the 
 controllable expenditure since th« 
 present Government came into power. 
 Nevertheless, the Finance Minister 
 had shown no disposition to meet 
 the case and deal with the great 
 questions which were connected with 
 the fiscal Lffairs of the countiy in the 
 spirit of a financier or statesman. 
 There might be a reason for that result. 
 They were approaching a crisis ; they 
 were coming to a point when those 
 hon. gentlemen were to i)e judged. 
 They were coming to a time when 
 those hon. gentlemen, who had been 
 supported by a mechanical majority, 
 would have to appear before another 
 tribunal and answer for their adminis- 
 tration of affairs during the last four 
 years, which had not been such as to 
 meet with the approval of th'ft 
 
23 
 
 country. Thoro was a reason why 
 ' on. gentlemen opposite manifested no 
 ^disposition to deal with that great 
 question. The best interests of the 
 country might suffer, its credit abroad 
 and its position in the eyes of the world 
 must sulTer, simply because at this 
 moment those hon. gentlemen refused 
 ■ to deal with the pressing fiscal ques- 
 ^ tions, though, on it being manifest 
 that the revenues of the country would 
 not moot the expenditure, the Finance 
 Minister was bound either to cut down 
 the expenditure or increase the 
 revenue. The hon. gentleman should 
 have oxerci>">d prudence and economy 
 in the right direction, but he had 
 failed to do it. In 18'74, when the 
 hon. gentleman had brought down his 
 Budget, he proposed that an increase 
 to lff| per cent, should be made to the 
 principal list of taxable imports for 
 the ver_y good reason that if that sum 
 were multiplied by six it would make 
 100, and Avould therefore be easy to 
 calculate. At all events, that was the 
 reason given. When the hon. the 
 Finance Minister was dealing with ques- 
 tions which he rjid not understand, ho 
 madoaclianir''. lie had not endeavoured 
 to deal with tho taiiff in viovv of the 
 changed cbndition of the country, or to 
 approach it in a statesmanlike manner, 
 but simply added 2^ per cent, to tho 15 
 per cent, list and afterwards he had 
 got -1 before the people and endeavoured 
 to pv.iSuade them that tho Government 
 had afforded more protection than their 
 
 ftrcdecessors beeau.se the}' had i ncrea.sed 
 he tariff from 15 to 17^ per cent. 
 Was such a course statesmanlike on tho 
 part of hon. gentlemen who had 
 charged that the fiscal affairs of the 
 country had been grossly mismanaged 
 by their predecessors in office ? Was 
 that to be expected at the hands of the 
 Vinance Minister who claimed to 
 possess a monopoly of all the financial 
 information in the country, and who 
 had expressed regret that there was no 
 member on tho Opposition side of the 
 House who was able to cope with him 
 in regard to financial questions? 
 
 It being Six o'clock, the Speaker 
 left the Chair. 
 
 After Recess 
 Mb. plumb said, when the House 
 adjourned, it w^uld be remembered 
 
 that he was discussing at some consid- 
 erable length the consequences of the 
 Eolicy which had been adopted by the 
 on. the Finance Minister in mak- 
 ing his loan. The plan that ho as- 
 serted was the true one for bor- 
 rowing on the part of any Govern- 
 ment, and the manner in which bor- 
 rowing should be conducted ; and the 
 fact was that open tender was the only 
 system which would be entirely fre» 
 from question or suspicion ; and he novr . 
 wished to say that the hon. the 
 Finance Minister did not succeed in 
 placing his loan as he (Mr. Cartwright) 
 would wish them :o understand, nomi- 
 nally compelling tlie country to pay an 
 interest of four percent., but actually 
 the conditions of his loan made the 
 rate 4f per cent., and did not in any 
 way reuuce tho/ate of interest, below 
 that of a five percent, loan, oi" the thea 
 going rate in the market, thn'^ was to 
 sa}', 105. Ho did not speak of those 
 things without positive pi'oof. 
 
 Some Hon. MKMBERS: Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. plumb said, hon, gentlemen 
 might say " hear, he:u-," and laugh at 
 the statement; but he could say that, if 
 they attempted to dispute his nsserlions 
 in this respect, they would liiid that 
 they and not himself weio ignorant of 
 the subject. The amount pail \V,v this 
 loan, under all the circumstances, was 
 one which was extraordinanij' ad van- . 
 tageous to the country, con.siiloring the 
 fact that the hon. gentleman (.Mr. 
 Cartwright) who went to Kiigland and 
 negotiated it, had done ovoiytliing in 
 his power, prior to milking those nego- 
 tiations, to lower tbe credit of the 
 country by the statements that he had 
 made with regard to its position. The n^,. 
 Budget speech of 1874 was more cal- "'• 
 culated to cause disaster to and depress 
 the credit of this country and throw 
 distrust upon its financial admin- 
 istration, upon the position of its publi» 
 men, and upon the manner in which 
 its affairs had been carried on, than 
 any utterances which had been made 
 in this House since he had the honour 
 of knowing anything of its affairs or of 
 the course of its debates. It came 
 from an authoritative source. It was A 
 very different thing for a t*'inanoe 
 Minister to rise in his place and make 
 a deliberate statement of that kind 
 
'.:%■'(■.■ 
 
 94 
 
 from what it would have been for a 
 jjrivato member to have done so, no 
 matter what the purpose wae — whether 
 to damage his opponent or to elevate 
 the position of his own party, when 
 what was expected to be a calm and 
 authoritative statement of the con- 
 dition of the country was expected 
 from a gentleman to whose hand the 
 financial affairs of the country were 
 entrusted. The statement ol the Finance 
 Minister went to the country and 
 was read in England, and it represented 
 that the most reckless extravagance 
 had marked the administration of his 
 predecessors ; that an incompetent set 
 of men had conducted these affairs, 
 and that they had cariied the country 
 almost to the verge of bankruptcy 
 owing to the obligations they had 
 assumed and thrown upon it. Why, 
 the language used with regard to the 
 Pacific Railway might be taken as a 
 sample of the whole tone of the 
 speech; this was, if he (Mr. Plumb) 
 remembered correctly, that the 
 engagements for that Kail way would 
 have increased the public expenditure 
 nearly $150,000,000 ; and ho had since 
 heard that the gentlemen who under- 
 took to complete that work in ten 
 years should be held up to public 
 execration for having pledged the 
 country to such an impossible, gigantic, 
 reckless;, and destructive enterprise. 
 He would again repeat, because they 
 were constant) v rcfeiTing to this 
 
 %■' O 
 
 subject, to the knowledge which the 
 late Government had of rail- 
 way construction in the Uniteil 
 States, and of the fact that 
 four or five men had built the road 
 from San Francisco to a point north 
 of Utah, almost by their own 
 enterprise, though with Government 
 aid, it was true. These men had 
 taken the initiative and had carried 
 the line over a route much more difii- 
 cult than anything which was ever 
 coniemplated in connection with the 
 Caiuidian Pacific Railway, They ran 
 it over an ascent of 7,000 feet at the 
 highest jwiiit, and built it in four years, 
 at a period, moreover, when labour was 
 high and everything inflated in the 
 United Stales, in consequence of the 
 war. Under such unfavourable circum- 
 stances, those men had carried their 
 undertaking to a tviumphant success, 
 
 and never were their bonds depreciated 
 below par, and the net earnings of the 
 road were now enough to pay large divi- 
 dends aud interest on the whole stuck 
 and bonds, though he believed the pro- 
 cess of diluting the stock had gone on 
 to a frightful extent, thus making it 
 represent a very much lai-ger capital I 
 than the road cost although it 
 wa« built during a period of the 
 greatest inflation. This being the 
 case, it seemed no rash under- 
 taking for the gentlemen who repre- 
 sented the then Government of Canada 
 to say that they would build the Pacific 
 Railway in ten years, provided always 
 that they did not increase the burdens 
 of the people ; this was the proviso 
 which rendered their position a per- 
 fectly impregnable one, and he was 
 surprised that year after year, and day 
 after day, in fact, whenever there was 
 a public utterance of the Government 
 or its partizaus, in one way or an- 
 other this charge was brought against 
 the Istc Government; this accusation 
 was lugged relevantly or irrelevantly 
 into almost every speech or discussion ; 
 and hon. !!;entlemen opposite were 
 never tired o)': '^aying that it was a 
 reckless undertaking, or of denouncing 
 the late Administration for having lent 
 themselves to it. Probably, by this 
 time, those hon. gentlemen had almost 
 persuaded themselves that what they 
 had so often stated was true. Onoe 
 for all, it might be said that the plan 
 of the late Government for building 
 the road was eminently justifiable witn 
 regard to the period when the under- 
 taking was proposed ; but he might 
 say that the language quoted the other 
 day from the leading orgin of the party 
 now in power and then in Opposition, 
 by his hon. friend the membei' for 
 VIonck, language used in 1871, ur^^ijed, 
 threatened and induced, by every 
 possible argument, the then Govern- 
 ment to proceed with the constructioa 
 of the Pacific Railway at once, and told 
 them that if this .vas not done they 
 were not true U) the country and its 
 interests; that they should carry out 
 the great trust reposed in their hands, 
 and that they should do it without 
 delay. He referred to the Olobe 
 newspaper. There was no thought of 
 delay then. He did not know that ther* 
 was even a trail across the prairies at 
 
I 
 
 l^e time save that pursued by the 
 Indian, the adventurer or the 
 employ^ of the Hudson Bay Com- 
 pany. The then (Tovernment knew 
 nothing, save by the most cursory 
 examination, of what was the condition 
 ■of the country to bo traversed by the 
 road ; and ho thought it did not lie in 
 'the mouths of hon. gentlemen opposite 
 to deal any longer with that particular 
 question in so disingenuou^t a manner. 
 "With reference to the expenditure 
 since the period of 187H-4, he might say 
 ho a]»prouchc(i it with a certain degree 
 •ofdilfidencc. There were many con- 
 ditions attached to niiy comparative 
 .statenujnt, and, except the statements 
 -on which they were Lu.-ed woie in 
 the hands of the ])erson who had 
 free access to the public archives, 
 and who was familiar Avith the state- 
 ment in the way that could only prob- 
 ably be attained by gentlemen who 
 'were in office — there wore many points 
 in regard to which any comparison 
 might necessarily be controverted, and 
 : regarding which, perhap8,some mistake 
 might be made by a person speaking, 
 as one might say, from the outside ; and 
 he was in this relation warned by his 
 hon. friend the Premier, who had 
 seen fit in his public utterances to 
 denounce an hon. gentleman who 
 attempted -to deal with questions of 
 public expenditure. The Premier had 
 poured out the vials of his wrath upon 
 the head of that unoffending gentle- 
 man who ventured to examine the 
 
 !s Public Accounts. The hon. gentle- 
 man (Mr. Mackenzie) said that this 
 hon. gentleman, a Senator of Canada, 
 who had haH. long experience 
 in public alfairs, was a neophyte and a 
 tyro. What right had he to speak of 
 the oxpondituie, or to criticize public 
 ' aflaii's ? But was this the language 
 ■of the true Reformer, or of the man 
 who was supj)osed to be the leader of 
 
 , 'ihe party which sought to have 
 
 -every man take an intelligent interest 
 
 ID the affairs of the country, 
 
 .and examine into public questions. 
 
 Judge for himself, and lake up his own 
 
 r line and views ? And he (Mr. Plumb) 
 hero affirmed that the humblest tax- 
 myor in Canada had a perfect right, in 
 lublic or in private, to criticise the pub- 
 ic acts of the Government or of any 
 lan connected with it, without being 
 |nbjected to the taunt that he was a 
 jphyte or a tyro. The claim of the 
 
 25 
 
 hon. gentleman who had ventured to 
 do so, was simply this : he had come 
 into public life long before the hon. 
 the Minister of the Interior, who pro- 
 fessed to know all about public affaire, 
 or the hon. the Minister of Justice, and 
 almost before any hon. gentleman 
 who sat u])on the Ministerial benches, 
 with the exception, he thought, of the 
 hon. the Postmaster-General, of the hon. 
 the Premier, and perhaps six months 
 after the hon. the Minister of Finance, 
 and that hon. gentleman hadas good an 
 opportunity to bo conversant with pub- 
 lic affairs as any gentleman in the Min- 
 istry, and a little better; and yet, for- 
 sooth, they wore told thtitthat hon. 
 gentleman in question must not venture 
 into the sacred regions of criticism, 
 upon the public affairs of this country; 
 that gentleman had shown that thero 
 had been large increases in the 
 public expenditure under the present 
 Government; but no one in this House 
 had ventured to meet his argu- 
 ments. They had heard, in this debate, 
 of everything else, and of all sorts 
 of economies which the Government 
 had instituted, but the Government 
 speakers blinked the grave question 
 which had been put home to them with 
 such clearness, and driven directly in 
 with such logical force. They had not 
 ventured to meet it, and tliey could not 
 meet it. Now, he would venture, not- 
 withstanding the sneers of his hon. 
 friend (Mr. Mackenzie), to take a few 
 figures of expenditures of the present 
 Government out of those accounts, col- 
 lated by the Hon. Senator, and see 
 how they compared with those, 
 of the previous Administration — that 
 reckless, improvident and exti-avugant 
 Administiation of which they hoard 
 so much. They weie tuld, when the 
 hon. gentlemen opposite came into 
 power, that the public offices had been 
 so crowded with clerks that it was 
 impossible tc get through them. Well, 
 if this was the case, the}' would have 
 room enough in the new building that 
 was, perhaps, for thoii- accommoilation ; 
 and the details of the ex))enditure 
 sliowed that, however reckless and 
 extravagant the late Government 
 might have been, this Au ministration 
 hud far exceeded them in that re.>peot. 
 The total appropriation for Contin- 
 gencies in 1873 was $17<J,709, and for 
 Extra Clerks, $13,704. In 1875, the 
 
26 
 
 former Item reached $212,327, and the 
 latter $38,821 ; while in 187^ Contin- 
 gencies amounted to $171,000, and 
 iol appropriaLion for Extra Clerks, 
 Tnn' ' ^"''^^"g an increase of nearly 
 100 per cent, with regard to that item 
 of expenditure for extra clerks for 
 u }^^ '*^^' Government was so 
 ^^u ^®"0""«^«J. and in connection 
 with which this Government had found 
 It necessary to provide enlarged and 
 extra accommodation, though not in the 
 very best architectural taste, he was 
 sorry to say. Still, enlarged accom- 
 modation had been furnished for men 
 who had been employed by the Gov- 
 ernment, and the outlay for such extra 
 service was very much larger than that 
 made by the previous Government, and 
 for which it was so loudly condemned. 
 In the item for Canals, Improvement 
 of Elvers, and Railways, there had 
 been a steady increase. These were 
 ^ems that did not come before the 
 House in the ordinary statement, but 
 had to be looked up, and it required a 
 great deal of labour to collate them. 
 Ihesc were the points on which 
 judgment could best be formed, because 
 they were not so obvious as others. It 
 required great labour to tabulate state- 
 ments of this kind, but he would vouch 
 for their accuracy. Ho would only 
 come up to the year 187«. He did not 
 regard 1877 as yet completed. They 
 were upon the verge of a break-up of 
 the present IIoii.se, and whoever came 
 m next year came in after the deluge, 
 and the accounts could bo made 
 ^ up atterwnids by Supplementary Esti- 
 ' mates. If the Government were 
 a httlo short in their calculations,thoro 
 was no difficulty in bringing up the 
 an-ears by resorting to the convenience 
 of Supplementary Estimates; that 
 TO, if they were in power; and, 
 if not, what mattered? Better to 
 take the year 1876' than the year 1877 
 foi- the purpose of an intelligent and 
 accurate compai-ison In 1875, the 
 amount paid on the Wclland Canal, 
 for salaiies, was $58,883, and for 
 repairs arid ordinary incidental labour, 
 $88,450. In 1876, the amount paid for 
 eala:ics was $(;4,243, and there was 
 paid for repairs and ordinary incidental 
 labour, $81,376. On the Lachinc Canal, 
 It had been found convenient to pay 
 137,898 in 1875, for salaries, and that 
 
 had been increased to $43,010 in ]87{ 
 while the labour, which had cos^ 
 $30,000, in 1875, cost only $29,000 ii^ 
 1876. In 1875, on the Beauharnoil 
 Canal, the amount expended in salariol 
 was $15,401, against $13,400 in 1873| 
 and $15,6 10 in 1876. The labour oil 
 that canal cost, in 1873, $9,880; inl 
 
 1875, $12,153 ; while in 1876, it' 
 amounted to $17,171. It might be 
 remarked, in passing, that all these 
 works were yieldirt; loss revenue than 
 formerly, that there was a decline in 
 business, and that the price of labour 
 had, or ought to have, fallen, so that 
 there should have been a reduction in 
 two ways : first, in the amount of 
 labour required, and secondly, in the 
 price paid for it ; but they had not 
 seen any evidence that this economical 
 Administration had brought this reduc 
 tion about. On the Cornwall Canal, 
 the amount spent in 1875, on salaries, 
 was $15,219, and on labour, $7,098. In 
 
 1876, it was $18,595 on salaries, and 
 $11,690 on labour. On the Chambly 
 Canal, $14,000 was spent on salaries and 
 $16,000 on labour in 1876, as against 
 $12,946 for salai ies, and $13,000 tor 
 labour in 1873. On the Ottawa and 
 Rideau Canals, $24,000 had been paid 
 for salaries, and $19,000 for labour in 
 1876, against $28,000 for salaries and 
 $14,000 for labour in 1873. ' On the Ot- 
 tawa River Works in 187.i, $14,000 was 
 paid for salaries, and $18,000 for labour ; 
 in 1875, $22,000 was paid for salaries, 
 and $59,117 for labour; and in 1876, 
 $20,104 was paid for salaries, and 
 $33,000 for labour. Many of these 
 items were undoubtedly meritorious. 
 He did not object to any necessary ex- 
 penditure, but it was very extraordi- 
 lary that, when the Finance Minister 
 )'reached his sermon of despair in 1874, 
 h3 evidently felt he had sufficient warn- 
 ing to curtail the public expenditure in 
 every direction ; and he ( Mr. Plumb) 
 now asserted that was sound policy, 
 when the hon. gentleman found that the 
 deficit was increasing year by year, to 
 take some financial measure to prevent 
 the constant accumulation and the re- 
 currence of those deficits which 
 alarmed the business community, 
 cioalod gloat distrust in the public 
 min.l, and ondangered the credit and 
 cliaiactoi- of the counti-y abroad. Afi 
 soon as it was discovei'ed that these- 
 
3ft 
 
 »cit8 were inevitable, tho true finan- 
 il policy was either to curtail public 
 >endilure and bring it within the 
 lits of the revenue, or to put on 
 le form of taxation which would 
 v^ver the amount of the deficit. In 
 lilese remarks, he (Mr. Plumb) was 
 jlistified by the remarks made by his 
 lion, friend the Premier in this House, 
 as they appeared in the JTansard report 
 in the month of March, 1876. They 
 expressed, donblly, in more clear and 
 Vigorous language than he (Mr. 
 :^lumb) was able to use, the 
 Very point and po.^ition ho was 
 taking' as to protecting the country 
 «ther by taxation or economy 
 'igainst the recuiriJig deficits which 
 Sad now swelled to so frightful an 
 amount, and threatened, unless prorapt- 
 •fer and vigorously dealt with, to wreck 
 toe financial jiosilion and credit of 
 ' Canadfl. At pu.tio 288 of the Hansard 
 ^f 187H, the hon. tho Premier said: 
 
 " When the revenue of the country fails 
 to supply the amount of money that might 
 'be advantageously spent on public works 
 «nd promoting the development of the 
 country, we have simply to avoid tiie expendi- 
 vture that can most easily be avoided in order 
 :jh&t, like prudent men, we can keeg our 
 •expenditure on a par with our income. ' 
 
 Had this been done? Ho asked for a 
 • reply. The Pienyer further said : 
 
 •* It is always in the power of the Govern- 
 ment, it honestly disposed, to make a certain 
 ,. reduction when theslateof the public revenue 
 ,' demands it. The true caune of Canada's 
 
 grosperity, for many years, arose froni the 
 iCt that 'it was a cheaper country to live in 
 ;*than any other on the continent. When we 
 ff follow any commercial or financial policy 
 -. tliat will leave us in a position of having a 
 ;Jdeficit, of making Canada a place chat no 
 /emigrant will care to come tOj that would be 
 '■'■tanding still or retrograding. ' 
 
 < These two sentences were not directly 
 '•consecutive, but they were in tho courso 
 faaof the same speech and were connocted 
 ^|lta the argument. Ho desired to call 
 E?*the attention of tho House to the first, 
 t?atid he wished to make it emphatic. 
 'r^^iThe Premier of Canada, himself, gave 
 4:-Hn it an utterance which might bo the 
 ^groundwork of all the financial criti- 
 Isra of the Opposition. Ho affirmed 
 .Jjat, either in one way or the other, 
 [the revenue of the country should he 
 lade to correspond with and to meet 
 
 the expenditure of the country. Where 
 would they be if tho policy of iho 
 Finance Minister weie carried out, as 
 it might be carried out, to its logicial 
 conclusion? There was a deficit this 
 year, which happened to be only a 
 trifling 02,000,000. Suppose it were 
 $5,000,000— if the arguments and con- 
 clusions of the Finance Minister were 
 sound, there should be no change of 
 his policy even then. The Finance 
 Minister had said he did not intend to 
 resort to taxation ; he had not shown 
 that he intended to curtail the pubhc 
 expenditure to meet the emergency, 
 and it was too transparent a thing to 
 deceive anybody. It only meant a 
 short sUMpcn^e of expenditure; k did 
 not moan that the item for Militia 
 was permanently reduced $400,000 or 
 $500,000. The necessities of the coun- 
 try were the same, and ho trusted that 
 tho Militia policy was not chani^od since 
 the accession of the i)iesont Minister of 
 Militia to the Cabinet. Although tho 
 utterances of that hon. geul eraan 
 before he entered the Cabinet, du\ not 
 accord with a large expenditure upon 
 the defences of tho country, he (Mr. 
 Plumb) trusted that he (Mr. Jones) 
 had modified his views so far as to be i n 
 accord with the other gentlemen on the 
 Ti-easuiy benches ; and he hoped tliat 
 their views would be in accord with 
 the general views of the country, which 
 he was satisfied was in favour of a jud 
 icious expenditure on the Militia ser- 
 vice. Again, he desired to say that all 
 the argument which he had adduced 
 with respect to the necessity for meet- 
 inff the deficit by vigorous means and 
 measures, either by peremptorily cur- 
 tailing the public expenditure, or by 
 taking such eteps as would bring 
 into the Treasury a sum sufficient 
 to meet the deficit, was entirely 
 justified by what the hon. the Premier 
 had stated in the words just quoted. 
 Notwithstanding all tha loud pro- 
 fessions which they had heard, not- 
 withstanding the assertion that there 
 had been a diminution in the expendi- 
 ture of the country, he (Mr. Plumb) 
 undertook to say that on every item of 
 the controllable expenditure of the 
 country, there had been an increase 
 since the present party came into 
 power, and the members of this House 
 must not mistake what that meant j. 
 
28 
 
 tliey must not be misled by speeches 
 from the Government side in respect 
 to that expenditure. He (Mr. Plumb) 
 alleged that the items of departmental 
 expend itui-o were, to a large extent, 
 controllable. During the year, there 
 had been a large diminution in the 
 Item of telegraphing. Since the public 
 attention hud been called to that expen- 
 diture, there had been a violent attempt 
 to reduce it. That showed that these 
 Items were under control, and could he 
 reduced. There had been no special 
 reason hist year why the amount 
 for this pur])ose should ha\ e been less 
 than before, but the eilect of calling 
 tlie attention of the public and the 
 Government to the subject had been 
 that there had been a spasmodic at- 
 tempt, at the eleventh hour, to carry 
 out some of the reforms promised when 
 this Government came into power. It 
 was a sort of death-bed repentance, 
 but itsS character was too trans- 
 parent, and it was only necessary 
 to dissect the items in order to 
 discover the hollow pretence and 
 juggle which "kept the word of 
 promise to the eui-. but brolcc it to the 
 hope." The Finance Minister, in the 
 course of [his picnic speeches, when 
 he distinguished himself by the 
 mnnner in which he treated his 
 opponents, when he discussed public 
 questions in a way which he CMr. 
 Plumb) hoped no iion. gentleman on 
 the 0})position side Avould ever adopt 
 had Slated, as ho (Air. Plumb) had 
 already said, that the reckless Govern- 
 ment which resigned in 1873 had 
 thrown burdens on the country which 
 made him sometimes ask himself if 
 they were not lik(" a reckless,disorderly 
 crew who had broken into the spirit 
 
 equal to the total indebtedness of the en 
 Dominion upon the Ist July, 18 77. 
 
 Now, if this meant anything, it meg^ 
 
 that the Finance Minister was bou'^f 
 
 by law, when he came into office tJ" 
 
 meet or provide for $131^00 000° 
 
 liabilities. According to 'the'tigu,f*f 
 
 that he had been able to collect,showi£ • 
 
 the expenditure on capital account ^ 
 
 on public works originated prior t®°' 
 
 1874, in the categoiy which the if" 
 
 nance Minister referred to as maki'*^ 
 
 part of the burthen of $131 300 000''*^ 
 
 that expenditure was $3 1.858 000 TlV*"** 
 
 P^iianco Minister now said !io must ej?" 
 
 pend ou the Wellaud and LachiP" 
 
 Canals, $5,500,000; on the Pacit*^®' 
 
 Railway, $6,000,000; and for miscc°^" 
 
 laneous purposes about $5,000,00'^^^ 
 
 These suras amounted in the assTeirar^^ 
 
 to $16,500,000, which, added to thf^ 
 
 ^^'2^..^Ii-eady expended, amounted t**' 
 
 room and were then endeavouring to 
 scuttle the ship. The hon. gentleman 
 said that there was a burden of liability 
 thrown on the country by his prede- 
 cessors of $131,000,000, which he 
 was compelled to face; in other 
 words, that when the present Govern- 
 ment took an account of their position 
 they found that additional burden 
 throAvn on them in 1873. The hon. 
 gentleman said : 
 
 u ^*i M^' in aH. a sum total of what I mar 
 
 call liabilities, capable of being ascerUineJ. 
 
 •mounting to $131,300,000, in addition uJ 
 
 ".'■ ir ,^^^' ^^^ ^'JU^e will see the mag. 
 
 nitude of the task imposed upon us by oh- 
 
 ^rvmg ihat this sum is as nearly an possible 
 
 $48,358,000, and this was more tha^** 
 was properly to be charged to work V 
 or expenditures thrown on the finance? 
 of the country by the late Government T 
 for there was no reason why they* 
 should include certain outlays for the a 
 lacific Railway, steel rails, Foster"* 
 payments, Kaministiquia lands, and 
 Fort Frances locks, which did not, in § 
 any sense, belong to the commit- Z 
 ments of the late Government. *' 
 Here was a vast discrepancy— a dis- 
 crepancy of $82,942,000 between 
 the linanco Minister's statements and 
 the actual facts, and yet there 
 had been no repeal of any legislation of 
 the hvte Government, except of the Pa- 
 cific Railway scheme; but the Finance 
 Miiister swelled his list of liabilities 
 ^^'i'l'"^ «30,000,000 for that scheme, 
 and $35,000,000 for renewal of maturing 
 iebt, for which he borrowed more than 
 ;'40,000,000. Here was $65,000,000 to be 
 wiped out at onco,and $17,000,000 more 
 might be found in exaggerated state- 
 ments of the sums to have been 
 expended on the canal scheme, and 
 more improvements. The whole of the 
 actual expenditure made, and to be 
 inade, under the profligate legislation 
 of the lato Government, as the Finance 
 Minister was oontinually pleased to 
 style it, was thus shown to be a sum, 
 the interest on which, at 4| per cent., 
 would amount to about $2,300,000. But 
 there was no need of hurrying much of 
 this outlay. A prudent financier would 
 have delayed it until the country was 
 able to Ite&v it without difficulty. 
 
^l 
 
 •e was a Bum of $6,000,000, which 
 finance Minister said was needed 
 ,„^mplete the neceseaiy portions of 
 "Upacific Railway, but it was difficult 
 "Snow what the' necessary portions 
 ; rHic Pacific Railway were. There were 
 
 «iin matters in i espect to the policy 
 he Government in building the 
 ♦iCJitic Railway which, he presumed, 
 ^oilld come up for exhaustive discus- 
 ion when the hon. the Minister of 
 •nblic Works made his usual state- 
 t • but, considering what had been 
 he (Mr. Plumb) very much 
 wubted whether the estimate of the 
 'Piiianco Minister of $6,000,000 for the 
 Work which the Government might 
 Wsider necessary, was not a very 
 Vaeue and nncertain estimate. Already 
 ''they saw some of the fruits of the 
 'policy of the Government in regard 
 ^tothat gigantic undertaking. They 
 'had built a road from the Kaministi- 
 "qtda, which was a very doubttul and 
 'shtid'v business at best, which he in- 
 • tended to discuss at length at some 
 ' future time. 
 ^ Several Hon. MEMBERS: No; 
 
 'don't- .^ , , 
 
 f Mb. PLUMB said, perhaps hon. 
 ' gentlemen would hear more about that 
 ' than they would like. The course 
 taken had been to change the route 
 from that by Lake Shebandowan, to 
 gtriko Port Savanne, near Lac des 
 Mille Lacs, and running on beyond 
 that point into a wilderness, which was 
 Utterly incapable of any sort of im- 
 provement, for H5 miles, simply, it 
 would seem, for the purpose of i)leasing 
 jome people who wanted, or held a 
 contract. There was nothing there 
 hut beaver, mnskrat and bullti-og. 
 This was not the kind of management 
 •which they should expect from the 
 irentlemen wk o had promised to inili- 
 ato such a wonderful policy for the 
 PatMtic Railway. This item of 
 16,000,000 miglit be cotisiderod one 
 of the controllable items— a iloaling 
 item, which might bo made largo, or 
 -smaller, according to the policy which 
 was pursued in this work. Ihey had 
 =^^en met by a statement in regard to 
 " ae famous steel rails whicli wore 
 Jnbellishing the land at Fort William, 
 fheio stood the now famous Neobing 
 lotel. Some also were at Nanaimo, 
 rhere they remained as a monument 
 
 of the improvidence of the Ministry, 
 and others were scattered over the 
 Dominion, from HalU'ax to Red River. 
 It had been thrown in the face of the 
 Opposition, that they had sancticmed 
 the contract for purchasing these rails, 
 because they could not avoid agreeing 
 to it after the thing was done ; but it 
 was done without the previous sanction 
 of Parliament. To-day, those rails could 
 be bought, free on board, for £6. Ss per 
 ton, or about $30, which cost 854 per 
 ton; making a difference of more than 
 50 per cent. The Opposition would 
 have to make up a new account of the 
 loss on those rails ; they had thought 
 it a frightful thing to discover that 
 there was a loss of $1,500,000, but now 
 they could add $6 a ton to that sum 
 on 50,000 tons, or $300,000. The 
 few that had been laid had been 
 used without the authority of Parlia- 
 ment in order to conceal the Minis- 
 terial blunders which had charaoterized 
 the operation from the beginning to 
 the end, if it was not something worse. 
 In addition to that sum, the hon. the 
 Finance Minister stated he would re- 
 quire altogether $13,500,000 as renewals 
 of Public Debt, lie had spent, according 
 to the Public Accounts, a further sum 
 of $31,655,000; making, altogether, 
 $61,588,000, out of which must be 
 deducted $13,500,000 tor renewals, 
 leaving $-18,000,000 as that Ministerial 
 bugbear which, they were told, would 
 swell the expenditure to $130,000,000, 
 which, was to ruin the country ; and all 
 of which was due to the recklessness of 
 
 the Government which preceded this 
 model Reform Administration. When 
 he looked at that statement closely, 
 and noticed the exaggeration which 
 pervaded the whole of the figures and 
 arguments so industriously i)Ut before 
 the public by the Finance Minister, and 
 repeated, first by the Minister of 
 Public Works, and afterwards with 
 less* accuracy by the gentlemen 
 wiio followed him and depended 
 on his inspiration for their facts he 
 found it was a Bogey; it was as if a 
 pumplvin had been scooped out and 
 iniulo into a rude likeness of a human 
 head, and placed at night at the corner 
 of a road, with a lighted candle in it, to^ 
 frighten the country bumpkins. When 
 they came to examine the sum still 
 to be expended, it amounted, at 4| per 
 
# 
 
 cent, to $1,425,000 per annum. The 
 hon. the Finance Minister had begged 
 the whole question in his Budget 
 speech when, in order to justify him- 
 self for allowing deticits to increase, he 
 said the revenue had declined to 
 S2-i,000,000, but that it was the lowest 
 point which thoy could touch. Ho 
 (Mr. Plumb) undertook to say that, if 
 the affairs of the country had been 
 properly administered, and proper 
 economy exercised, every one of the 
 improvements proposed by Mr. Tilley 
 could have been carried out, and all 
 the charges upon revenue would still 
 have fallen below the sum of $22,000,000 
 a year, with ample means provided 
 for laying aside a sinking fund. If 
 822,000,000 was the lowest figure to 
 which, according to the Finance Minis- 
 ter, the public revenue was likely to fall, 
 why was an improper, reckless, ruin- 
 ous policy adopted by the present 
 Government when the expenditure 
 was considerably below that sum, 
 because it must be remembered that, 
 when they took office in 1873, we were 
 on the rising tide. There had been 
 large surpluses year after year— 
 $3,750,000 in one year,— and these 
 large revenues had enabled the late 
 Administration not only to meet all 
 their requii-ements with a liberal and 
 generous expenditure, but to invest up- 
 wards of $10,000,000 of Hurplus revenue 
 in permanent works which might i)ro- 
 perly have been charged against capi- 
 tal. Moreover, it parted with revenue 
 to the amount of from $1,200,000 to 
 $1,500,000 in abrogating the duties on 
 tea and coffee. The acts of the pre- 
 sent Government in the line followed 
 by the late Government were justifi- 
 able, and it was only when they had 
 departed from the policy laid down 
 by their predecessors they were 
 amenable to public c iticism ; when 
 they followed it mey did well, 
 but when thoy departed from it they 
 showed their utter incapacity to strike 
 out a policy for themselves, and carry 
 on the administration of public affairs 
 according to their own judgment. 
 The hon. the Finance Minister had 
 treated the House to a long disquisition 
 ou the question of taxation, and 
 pointed them to the terrible example 
 afforded by the neighbouring Republic. 
 He (Ml-. Plumb) was one of those who 
 
 did not think it was desirable on a: 
 occasions and in all discu-ssions tf 
 drag in, relevantly or irrelevantly, th 
 example of the great Eepublic whici 
 lay contiguous to the Dominion. Th, 
 American people knew the-r own busi. 
 ness and understood the managemeii' 
 of their own affairs, and it did not 
 become Canadians to be so free will, 
 their criticisms of the policy adopted 
 year after year deliberately by the peo- 
 pie of the United States, where thei-c 
 was universal sufJrage, where every 
 man had the power to express his 
 opinion on public affairs, and where it 
 had been possible to change a Govern- 
 ment once in two j-ears in its adminis- 
 tration through Congress. It could not 
 be supposed that the Congress of the 
 United States did not represent the 
 people, but that it lepresented 
 Mr. David Wells, the Chicago Tribune, 
 Mr. John Quincy Adams, or any other 
 gentleman who might choose to have 
 a theory of Free-trade, and air it for 
 the public benefit or for the instruction 
 ofthe Canadian Minister of the Interior. 
 The American peoj)le knew how to 
 manage their own affairs, and it became 
 us to let them follow their own course. 
 It was, however, important to consider 
 what effect our relations with the 
 United States had on our trade, and 
 how far the administration of their 
 affairs affected us. There could be no 
 doubt it did affect u.s most seriously. 
 We lived on a frontier extending thou- 
 s.'inds of miles, in peaceful relations 
 with our neighnours. He hoped we 
 might be as parallel lines,not diverging, 
 but never meeting. As regarded the 
 policy of that country, we were told it 
 was overburdened with taxation. Taxa- 
 tion meant ])roperty and business 
 and a people able to pay it, and 
 the United States had adopted 
 that policy, which many hon. 
 members o^)posite were inclined to 
 favour,— the policy of the universal 
 admission of the people themselves to a 
 vote upon public affairs, and of univer- 
 sal suffrage, which enabled the whole 
 people to call their rulers to account. 
 As the United States had adopted that 
 principle and assumed their taxation 
 voluntarily, it did not lie in our mouths 
 to sneer at any policy Ihey adopted. 
 He could tell hon. members, for their 
 consolation, that, whatever might be 
 
 m 
 th 
 
 re 
 n< 
 
 B 
 
31 
 
 4" 
 
 ; ^ it 
 
 in this Houso in regard to the 
 ^y of that groat country, would 
 _ro very little effect upon the action 
 |the tfnited Stiitew relating to their 
 in matters. They would continue to 
 inage their own att'airs as they 
 __>ught best and to pi'OH])er, although 
 jPBy might have, as all commercial and 
 riipidly-growing countries where there 
 'r^ immense business activity would 
 h$yQ, a tomporarj' chock and de- 
 pression. We had seen the depres- 
 uipn come, but we had also seen 
 Uie Amefican people rise, revived and 
 refreshed from their misfortune.<, and 
 come up to the mark smiling, and pro- 
 ■oeed with their work, and they had 
 never suifered a permanent check 
 since ho had known anything of 
 their ])olitical history from the 
 policy of watching their own in- 
 
 terests, protecting their own people, 
 .and having their own markets for 
 themselves. He was surprised at the 
 •Statement of the hon. member for 
 North Norfolk, (Mr. Charlton) that the 
 policy of the United States between 
 1846 and 1857 was a Free-trade policy. 
 Nothing could bo nioi-e absurd; they 
 never Adopted a Free-trade policy. 
 There were concessions made in respect 
 to the tiiriff. The South was always in 
 favour of light duties. The general 
 ^expenses of the Central (Tovernment 
 were not large. Each State bore its 
 -own burthens, and there was no general 
 eystem by which the Federal Govei-n- 
 ment was permitted to make large ex- 
 penditures. It made no improve- 
 ments except on harbours and 
 •navigation, and it built no roads. 
 It did nothing which belonged to the 
 States, which were jealous of the in- 
 terference of the Central power. In 
 1846 a tariff was adopted— they might 
 call it what they pleased — a revenue 
 tariff, or incidental protection, or acci- 
 dental protection, or any kind of pro- 
 tection— 100 per cent, on schedule A, 
 40 per cent, on schedufe B, 30 percent. 
 on and 25 per cent, on D. 
 - Schedules B, C and D, fairly 
 embraced all the articles which 
 •equired protection, in order to 
 itimulate, toster arid develop the indus- 
 trial energies of the United States. 
 ifiut hon. gentlemen opposite would 
 ^ver meet them in fair argument, be- 
 <iau8e they set up a man of straw for 
 
 themselves, ami had [great satisfaction 
 in knocking it over. They were, how- 
 ever,(iuite welcome to that line of action. 
 Hon. gentlemen opposite i?aid the Op- 
 position desired to adopt the present 
 high tariff policy of the United States. 
 He denied that altogether ; they never 
 advocated any such policy. The 
 Opposition were constantly accused of 
 wishing to build a Chinese wall around 
 Canada, but it was loft to the hon. th« 
 Minister of Militia to talk about put- 
 ting up a wall, as he had desired to do 
 lietween Ontario and Quebec and 
 Nova Scotiu — a little wall of his own. 
 But the Opposition had never talked 
 of adopting any such course. With 
 respect to the taxation of the United 
 States, it was undoubtedly large, and 
 it had been swollen by iniprovident 
 expenditures. The piesent tariti" of 
 the United States was one which they 
 (the Opposition) would never dream 
 of attempting to justify. It was framed, 
 in the first place, by Mr. Morrill of 
 Vermont, in Congress, in 1861, under 
 circumstances which made it not a 
 " Morrill " but an immoral tariff, — and 
 no one in Canada, no matter how 
 strong his Protectionist proclivities 
 might be, ever ju&titied that tariff or 
 argued in favour of it, or ever pi'oposed, 
 in even a remote way, that it sliould 
 be the policy of this country. 
 
 Mr. MILLS: Yes. 
 
 Mr. PLUMB said no one would think 
 
 of it; he deniod.it utterly and appealed 
 
 to the House to support him in that 
 
 denial. When the Morrill tarilf was 
 
 established it was because the check 
 
 on tariff legislation was removed by 
 
 the secession of the members of the 
 
 Southern States. The instant it was 
 
 known the tariif was to be changed, 
 
 so strong was the feeling against the 
 
 South that anything that looked like 
 
 a policy they had advocated met with 
 
 disfavour. The men who wished to 
 
 have a protective tariff at that time 
 
 came into power and that tariff was 
 
 adopted. It had since, however, been 
 
 somewhat raoditied ; but it was utterly 
 
 incorrect to say that such a polic)'^ had 
 
 been thought of by the ])ei)ple of this 
 
 country. 
 
 Mr. MILLS : Not by the people, but 
 by the hon. gentleman's leaiier. 
 
 h':'('' 
 
Mr. plumb said it had certain!}- 
 not been thought of by any hon. mem- 
 ber on the Opposition side of the 
 House. Such had never been the case ; 
 but hon. gentlemen opposite ha(l 
 made political capital out of 
 it, and, if that plea was taken 
 away, Ihey would not have a leg to 
 stand upon. Those hon. gentlemen 
 would, no doubt, continue to insist on 
 this point, but the Opposition dis- 
 claimed any such wish on the part of 
 the Opposition or of the people, and 
 he had had as largo opportunities of 
 judging as the hon. the Minister of 
 the Interior, even though he were 
 not educated at a western college. 
 Whenever that argument was used bj' 
 hon. gentlemen opposite, it showed 
 thej' had no confidence in their own 
 knowledge of what the Opposition 
 really wished and advocated. They 
 first invented an argument and tiieii 
 refuted it. It was theii common 
 mode of warfai'e. but it nevei- convin- 
 ced any one. Ho advised them to 
 meet the question honestly if they 
 expected to have any influence with 
 the people, who were beginning to 
 see through the Government who 
 were trying to humbug the people. 
 His hon. friend the Minister of 
 Finance also made constant complaint 
 of the tendency of population to con- 
 verge into large cities. Ho (Mr. 
 Plumb) did not know what could be 
 the reason of the gentleman's extraor- 
 dinary hatred of the collecting of the 
 population of the country into towns 
 and cities. There had been no such 
 aggregations of people in Canada as to 
 make it nccessaiy to call the attention 
 of the House to the prevailing misery 
 of the crowded city of New York. 
 Nothing should induce any man, he 
 should think, to bi-ing forward, for the 
 sake of argument, and as an awful 
 warning to Canada, the misery and 
 squalor of the ci'owded back-slums of 
 New York and London. It was no 
 argument of any consequence to 
 Canada, where the towns and cities 
 that wore spi-inging up were peo- 
 pled with an industrial population. 
 But he could iindei-stand why the hon. 
 gentleman used this argument; it was 
 because these villages and towns had 
 an interest in that sort of industry 
 which ho was doing his best to destroy. 
 
 Look at Hamilton; why was it a city? 
 It was built u]> by manufactures. He 
 wondered the gentlemen who repre- 
 sented that city did not take the matter 
 up and say, " Wo have no such wretched 
 examples as the hon. the Minister 
 of Finance gives us to shun." Any 
 business which would lead to the build- 
 ing up of towns, the increase of tho' 
 value of the neighbouring property, the 
 making of home markets, it was the 
 policy, it would appear, of the Govern- 
 ment side utterly to destroy. As far 
 as the argument respecting New York 
 was concerned, it might be an awful 
 example, but it was entirely imperti- 
 nent and irrelevant in reference to- 
 Canada. With regard to the indebted- 
 ness of towns and cities of the United 
 States, did it flow from the fact that 
 there were large manufacturing indus- 
 tries in tho>e places ? The large manu- 
 factories were not centred in the great 
 cities. The iron and coal of Pennysl- 
 vania had not built up large cities near 
 the mines. The manufacturing indus- 
 tries of Massachusetts had not built up 
 large cities where the centres of such 
 industries were found; Lowell and other 
 manufacturing towns there were not 
 large, comparatively speaking. Fall 
 Eiver, which he believed had only eight 
 or ten thousand inhabitants, was full of 
 manufactories. He did not at all under- 
 stand the argument which said that 
 industrial populations collected in large 
 towns, stimulated by a high tariff, ne- 
 cessarily engendered misery and ruin. 
 And now the}- wCre brought face to 
 face with what was said by the hon. 
 the Minister of Finance, and accepted 
 by the gentlemen on his side to 
 be the policy which they pro- 
 posed to adopt as an issue which 
 should bo taken between the two great 
 parties at the coming struggle. The 
 opinions of the Government side upon 
 this subject was a mass of inchoate 
 theory, not wortlvone single grain of 
 good practical common sen.se. Why, in 
 our Public Library there were more 
 than 250 volumes upon political econo- 
 my, upon i^riff, and upon general fiscal 
 affairs, every one of wjiich pretended to 
 give some special information on those 
 subjects, and most of which differed 
 from every other. Now, ho would like 
 to know exactly what was to be the 
 policy of the Government. How was- 
 
33 
 
 the country to chooso between fo many ' 
 opinions. Kv(My man tiiouiflit lie luul ' 
 a spociiil f^ift wliicli enulilod liim to ' 
 talk tiboiU fiscal allUirs and to judgo of 
 principles of political economy, lie 
 had been tol<l hy an ex|tpi"ienced po'i- 
 tieian in the United States, whose name, : 
 if he mentioned it, would bo recoifnized 
 in this H.ouseasanauthority,tliat lieliad 
 a ijreat deal of ti'ouble in every succes- 
 sive LogI--lature of a groat State lying j 
 near us, when llioy come lo appoint ^ 
 Committees. Thore was one thing, he i 
 said, that was most remarkable: every I 
 man thought he was (pialitied to bo ; 
 placed on the Jianking Committee — ; 
 that he had a .special gift that way. i 
 ■ It was HO in i-egard to this tinancial • 
 question. Of the 250 volumes in the \ 
 librarj', it would bo toiuid that | 
 each had, in some degree, a special ' 
 theory of its own. There wore ' 
 gentlemen in this House who also ' 
 held such theories, brit, when thev ' 
 argued upon subjecis thai came home 
 to the groat body of the peo|)!e. 
 the people did not care to come here 
 and read through those 250 volumes to 
 see which theory was right. The}- 
 wished to know how tar Free-trade 
 or Pi-otection attectod their ])oc!octs, 
 and of this they were able to judge 
 wi'diout considering musty theories. 
 All that the farmer wanted to know 
 of the Tariff policy of tlie country v^as 
 whether it would enabh; him to yet 
 the best price for his crops. The fm ' 
 er did not care what abstract view 
 tariff or fiscal policy were propounded , 
 he was looking to his own special 
 interests, even though those views were 
 propounded by the hon. the .Minister 
 of the Interior himself, with that subtle 
 logic of which lie was so great a 
 master. Although, at Fergus and at 
 other places, ho ei.dcavoiircd (o make 
 the ('auadian faimLM- believe that the 
 consumer always paid the <luty upon 
 the farmer's pioduco, when ho sold his 
 bushel of barley on the other siile of 
 the lino, he found ho had to j)ay 
 15c. to the United States (lovcrnmont 
 and to paj' Customs duties besides. 
 Ho only got 85c. a bushel for his 
 barley in the American market, 
 while his neighbour, pei'haps his 
 own brother, livifig acro.ss the fron- 
 tier, had sold his bushel of barley and 
 had got his dollar a bushel foi- 
 [it. The hou. the Minister of the 
 
 3 
 
 fntei-ior might argue until he wan 
 black ill the face, ijut he would never 
 get over that. The consumer did not 
 always pay the duty, and, to sa}- that 
 he (lid so upon Canadian grain sold in 
 the United States, was to utter an 
 impertinent absurdity. The farmers 
 of ('atiada did not care which 
 jiarty wiisin power; they only cared 
 whether any policy of the (jovern- 
 ment would all'oct their industry and 
 their pi'icos. They did not want to 
 know the views of David. A. Wells, or 
 the Chicago Tribune, or any suah author- 
 ities ; nor did they care for the long 
 row of figures brought forward by the 
 Minister of the Interior, in the I'oport 
 of that gentleman, as chairman of 
 the Depression Committee ; nor for 
 the fact that somobo('y did some- 
 thisig in connection with the Chats 
 C'anal in 185o Why, they might as 
 well go back to the discovery of 
 America. His hon. friend t he Minister 
 of the Interior distinguished himself 
 in 187<> l>y his conduct as chairman of 
 the I)e|»ression Committee. His line 
 of policy, the manner in which he 
 would administer the atVairs of Caiuida, 
 111 which ho would |)n)tect the Can;uJiun 
 people, and would sym))athize with 
 and endeavour 1o foster national indus- 
 try, might bo ird'oi-rod from tlie report. 
 The rojtort of the Committee began 
 with a letter from the Collector of the 
 port of New Y(n'k, conveying informa- 
 tion that the Commission of tho United 
 States had dociilod that the draw- 
 back u|ion the exportation of refined 
 sugar was not a bounty. The 
 hon. gentleman Inul tho evidence 
 of gf.'iit lemon in Canada u])on the 
 subject, blithe refused to receive it, and 
 treated tho people olfering it as though 
 the}- were culprits before him. It was 
 discovered now, that, notwithstanding 
 tho coutident assertions of tho Minister 
 of the Interior, tho American draw- 
 back was in offiect a bounty. 
 Thore were few gentlemen in 
 (he Mouse who knew anything 
 about sugar duties. Ho (Mr. Plumb) 
 would show to the House something 
 of the conduct of the Minister of the 
 Interior with regard to it. The hon. 
 gentleman discarded tho evidence of 
 tho manager of tho sugar-rotining 
 establishment in Montreal, and the 
 evidence of Mr. Bunting, a large im- 
 porter of raw sugar, who, if he gave 
 
84 
 
 evidence to sustain the opinions of the 
 Opposition, ^avo it rather ii^ainst his 
 own interest than for it. lie (Mr. Mills) 
 desired rathcj- to iiave the testimony of 
 people who couM ])ossihly know very 
 little about tiie (juestion. This was seen 
 all thi'oii^'h the repoit. When a nian 
 came before him who knew anything- 
 about tiio matter under enquiry he brow- 
 beat him. One of these witnesses said : 
 " You wish me to give answers I do not 
 intend ; I come here to ^'ive such 
 evidence as I can fairly give, whether 
 it may be against your wishes 
 and interest, or in favour of them, 
 and 1 will not be brow-bealen by 
 any man here, iujt give evidence 
 in my own way." The report also 
 said : "If we adopt a polic}- ot protect- 
 ing Canadian industries, we must make 
 \ip our min<ls to lose the whole revenue 
 on the 17^ per cent, list." This was 
 rather all extravagant proposition to be 
 made by a gentleman so well versed 
 in fiscal matters, so entirely compe- 
 tent to deal with such questions as the 
 hon. the Minister of the Interior, who 
 knew everything, who read every- 
 thing, who understood everything. 
 who had his mind made u]) in over}' 
 possible subject from pitch and toss 
 to manslaughtei'. He (Mj-. Plumb) 
 was inclined tf» doubt whether they 
 should lose the whole revenue on the 
 17^ per cent, list, because there were 
 many articles Canada eoukl not under- 
 take to manufacture, because he 
 thought there wei'e only three or four 
 large lines of staples which could be 
 manufactured here, and the}- were not 
 those which formed the greater part of 
 the list at the 17i pei' cent. rate. 
 But the Minislei- of the Interior argued 
 in that report that, by adopting a 
 policy of ]n-otection— by this Ch-nese 
 wall, they iieai-d so much of — we 
 should gain an accession to our popula- 
 tion of fifty thousand people. These 
 fifty thousand woiknien wlu) would 
 find employment here would iiave, say 
 two persons depending upon each 
 of them, thus adding 150,000 to 
 the population ; but we got, in return 
 for whatever we lost in the 17^^ per 
 cent, list, the labour, the expenditure. 
 and the money left in the country l)y 
 those 150,000 ])eople. Perhaps that 
 would be all, but he (Ml*. Plumb) 
 could see a great deal more, admitting 
 
 i that these arguments were sound and 
 ; based on sound ]>rinciples, which ho 
 denied, lie could see we should gain 
 very lar<;ely. But the hon. Ministei 
 was feadiil that wo should lose 
 our revenue. Suppose we did, wo 
 should not be (h)ing any more than 
 was pro]»osed to be done by the great 
 leailer of the Libeival party when ho 
 went to Washington to procure a 
 reciprocity treaty" for us. He pro- 
 fessed to give up all our revenue. He 
 was not only willing to do that, but ho 
 would adnut into this country manu- 
 factui'es of all kinds, taking off our 
 tariff at the rate of ono-thiril ft 
 year for three years, until wo canfft 
 upon a basis of Free-trade. At the 
 same time, he proposed that the Go^ 
 ernment on the other side should do 
 the same thing by us; but, inasmudi as 
 our avei-age tar'itf was then 17^ per 
 cent., and the taritf whieh he proposed 
 to deal with was an average of 45 per 
 cent., it would bo clearly seen that^ 
 when we came down to a point of 
 admitting goods practically duty free, 
 the American manufacturers would 
 still be ])rotected ami our manu- 
 facturers would be ruined in competi- 
 tion with them on a one-sided Free- 
 trade iiasis. In addition to that, 
 the ambassador engaged to enlai'ge 
 our canals in four years, He 
 engaged to spend millions of dollars 
 upon the Caughnawaga Canal, a 
 scheme totally unpractical and as wild 
 and visionary as was ever promulgated. 
 Although there would be no egress lor 
 vessels going down the Caughnawaga 
 Canal to New York, he proposed to 
 have fourteen feet of water in the 
 mitre-sills and spend millions of money 
 on that canal. He pledged himself to 
 do all this, and to do it in four years; 
 at the same he would have cut oft" from 
 this country a large part of the 
 revenue by the abrogation of the tariff 
 upon American goods ; and it was very 
 certain that, from the date of that 
 treaty, we should never have any 
 importations from Groat Britain. All 
 British goods would como through 
 the UiiiLod States. Not only would 
 lie have annihilated our revenue by this 
 polic}', but ho would have pledged tlio 
 country to a large expenditure on the 
 top of the so-called ruinous policy, 
 wmch the hon. the Finance Minister 
 
36 
 
 had doHcribcd as the policy of his pi-o- 
 decesHors, and havo plcdi^ed thu 
 country to what mis^ht havo been 
 in-etriovablo ruin. This party of 
 reform, of economy and liberal 
 ideas, actually, in addition to the bur- 
 don which IkmI itoen ])ut upon the 
 country by tlio profligate (Jovcrnment 
 which had ])recodod lids model politi- 
 cal i)arty, proposed, by the draft treaty, 
 to strike down at one blow the greater 
 part of our revenue, and to commit 
 the country- t(. that enormous e.\'))endi- 
 ture; and, after the plenipotentiary 
 of Canada, Mr. Brown, had made con- 
 cession after coiicess'on to the Ameri- 
 can Government, coo'ly said in effect, 
 " \Vc have got your best offer ; we will 
 preserve it as a basis for future ncgocia- 
 tions. They had been told by the hnn. 
 the Finance Minister tiiat he bad no 
 policy to propose. He asserted that he 
 had reduced economy to its lowest 
 ti"ure; he had taken it to its utmost 
 consequence ; he could yo no farther 
 ill that direction, lie had economised 
 in that alarming manner which had 
 increased the jniblic expenditure in all 
 directions, and the efforts at economy 
 could go no iurther. But, at the same 
 time, iie said he had no policy to pro- 
 pose. He did not even offer the pro- 
 verbial stone when asked for broad, but 
 he said a great issue was about to bo 
 presented to the people. He said, in 
 effect, that ho should go to the people 
 without policy; he should go to the 
 people declaring the Government had 
 no more power to alleviate their dis- 
 tress, or ability to relieve their wants, 
 than flies on the wheel. That was onoof 
 the statements with which ho pro])Osed 
 to go to the people. He proposed to go 
 to them upon the issue that the expen- 
 diture of the country had been in- 
 creased in every Department since the 
 present Administration came into 
 power, with the explanation that the 
 lateAdministration had almost wrecked 
 the ship of state. Well, he (Mr. Plumb) 
 proposed to meet him on that issue. The 
 Finance Minister had no policy to 
 offer except a policy of inactivity, of 
 cowardly supinenoss. He dared not 
 meet the questions of the day, but met 
 the people who were suffering, begging, 
 imploring, with the contemptuous 
 assurance that the Government, as 
 such, could do no more for them than 
 
 flies on the wheel. Why, there should 
 have t)een some luoviunent at leasi, 
 in the direction of relief; some attempt 
 to deal witli the crisis, at any rate ; to 
 have a commisNion upon the atfairs .)f 
 the country, to have ex.imined in a 
 lii'0]ier s])irit into the depression whicii 
 liad overtaken our raanufactorios, a 
 commission which should not take the 
 statcMuonts of people who did not live 
 in the country in preference to 
 those who did. He (Mr. Plumb) 
 know the (iovornment had a policy 
 which was well understood in the coun- 
 try, a policy of vituperation and 
 slander, of hounding down every public 
 man who dared to hold o|>inion8 
 o])])osed to theirs It was a policy of 
 endeavouring to drag down the right 
 lion, member for Kingston, of sti-iking 
 him below the belt, of bringing up 
 every possible charge against him in 
 order, if possible, to crush him, because 
 they knew tliat be was the leader of 
 the groat jiarty of which ho (Mr. 
 1^1 urn b) was a very humble member ; 
 because they hoped theieb}' to damage, 
 to some extent, that party. But ho 
 (Mr. Plumb) couM tell them that that 
 party did tK)t depend for its strength 
 entii'oly upon any leader. There were 
 great ])rinciples which that party held 
 and intended to carry out, which it 
 intended to present to the people, and 
 which would be appreciated at the 
 great arbitrament of the approaching 
 elections. The present Administration 
 had a ))olicy which they pursued with 
 the relentless ferocity and untiring 
 scent of the sleuth-hound. Ho (Mr. 
 Plumb) know that Committees had 
 boon ibrmed for the purpose of fas- 
 toning unjust charges upon the I'ight 
 hon. gentlemen who led his party, 
 every member of which had a right to 
 rise and defend him against those 
 charges, because, he being their leader, 
 they were, in a certain sense, respon- 
 sible tor his every act, and, if any point 
 of dishonour could be fixstened on him 
 in his dealings in public life, it must 
 necessarily revert upon his foUowera 
 The Opposition throw down the 
 gauntlet and challenged the gentlemen 
 on the other side to continue the policy 
 in which they had distinguished them- 
 selves, and had placed themselves on a 
 bad eminence. The right hon. mem- 
 ber for Kingston never struck below 
 
36 
 
 tho bolt, iiover took base advantage of 
 his otu'inios, never respondeil in kind 
 to tlio toiil atlacks made upon him ; ho 
 Rconu'd to descend to .such a level. 
 Ah a stuteHtnnn, head and Hhoidder.s 
 above an}' of his assailants, he could 
 afford to look down on tiiem with the 
 Kcorn which wa,s felt by all the people 
 of this conntiy who had measure! 
 them at their true value. Tho 
 principleH of tiie great Liberal- 
 Conseivative parly were the undyini,' 
 principleH held and sup])oited by the 
 
 crowd. Tho hon. raomber and his 
 friends wero careful not to swell tho 
 crowd, but judiciously ke])t aloof. It 
 was a splendid wind-u]) lo a sei'ies of 
 trium])hs such a.s hac. never been known 
 in the political hisfo-y of (Canada. Ilal- 
 diniand, whi<-li had returned by accla- 
 mation tho hon. member who now 
 rejirc-^enteil it (Mr. TliompHon), turned 
 out from twelve I" tifteeii thousand 
 people to meet tbom. In the stroni^- 
 holds of tlie enemy, these raeeting.s 
 were, of course, aitondeil b} many 
 
 gentleman whom the supporters of ! ])eoplo who held opj'osite views to theii 
 the ftovernmcjiit had pursued with j own. These peopl:* wei-o asked to 
 such untiring hate and uni'clenting , make any objections they thought 
 ferocity. He was speaking gen- jiroper. They wished to discuss the 
 orally iti respect to the right hon. i (juestions with t'.io people in tho 
 gentleman, and he iioped be was not tail- and impartial manner which bad 
 transgressing the rules ot' Pai'liameiit. 1 always characterized the Opposi- 
 Ho ccild tell tbe j)re.sent Administra- | tion. 
 tion that they wei'c greatly mislai^eii i ncss 
 if they sui)p()sed that, b}' hounding 
 down and ])ei'.secuting one single man 
 in Canada, they could advance theii- 
 own interests. The reaction which he 
 (Mr. Plumb) had suid had taken jilace 
 in Canada was constantly increasing. 
 It had begun like the eddies which 
 preceded great floods; they weie tbe 
 
 and bad exprest-ed their reaui- 
 lo ivnsw r ;iiiy intei-pellations. 
 
 They did not intend to brow-beat those 
 who" o]>posed them, but wei'o prepared 
 to ai'guo with thorn dispassionately, so 
 that tiiey could not go home and U8q 
 with tlieii- nei<;'hbours the arguments 
 that we bad e.\])loded. He (Mr. Plumb) 
 interru|)ted but once, and that was, 
 
 J ^.^ >.. , .,.._, „^ , wlii'ii lie bad cliallengod anyone to say 
 
 precursors of the mighty deluge which j what I'eforms had been instituted by 
 
 would sweep away the insecure foun- 
 dation ujwn which those gentlemen 
 had placed themselves. He had seen 
 as much of the Canadian people (.hiring 
 the past Slimmer and autumn as an;v 
 hon. gentleman oj)posite, and he had 
 seen evidence of what he had stated. 
 He had stood face to face with the 
 people of Canada. The Oppc-sition, 
 in their great meetings, did not confine 
 themselves to their own stroiiirholds ; 
 
 tbe so-called Reform i^arty, one of the 
 voters asked what ainrnt the election 
 law, and he (Mr. Plumb) answered 
 that almost the only leforms in connec- 
 tion with the election law were the bal- 
 lot, of which the Premier said he was 
 not in favour, and the provision 
 whi'di ])ievented tho prosecution 
 of an election protest going on during 
 the Session of Parliament. That 
 was a rolbrm, as he had stated, 
 
 they went where the peojile were I in a very wrong dii'cction. His hon. 
 against them — the exact I'everse of j friend beside him would corroborate 
 which policy was adopted by the gen- the statement that that was the only 
 tlomen opposite. The members of the interpellation made during the meet- 
 Opposition had every opportunity of j ing. Ho had heard of otherro.ictions — 
 seeing .something of the state ot' public I of one in the county of Lumbton. 
 ■'''"'■ ' ' ' '' " ■' " 'He thought that county, . represent- 
 
 ed here by the Premier, was pretty 
 well known as a model reform district; 
 that it had always returned a Eeforraer ; 
 but now, he was creilibly assured, that, 
 in that county, in the centre of every- 
 thing that wasEeform, if he might not 
 
 fooling in tho strongholds of the (iov- 
 ornment. They had been at Xew- 
 market, at Barrie, at Millorook, at St. 
 Thomas, at Ailsa Craig, at A .herst- 
 burg, in Glengarry, in Dundas, in 
 Haldimand, in East York, at Hamilton. 
 
 Mr. wood : 
 against you there. 
 
 Mr. PLUMB said the people cer- 
 tainly were against them, but it was a 
 pressure against them of an admii'ing 
 
 The people were 
 
 designate it by another word, that 
 point from which the standard was 
 elevated in 1874, or where, at le.'iKt, 
 there was a pretence of elevating it; 
 
87 
 
 at this moment, thoro wore twelve 
 hundred Conservatives onj'oll'd in 
 iho Liboral-Consorviitivo As>iiiciatioii. 
 Eg understood tliat, not very Ion;,' 
 ago, thoro had boon a meetin^r ,^- 
 the County Council ; that, at the same 
 l,ime, there was a mooting to organi/.i- 
 the LiboralConsorvativo Association ; 
 and he understood, the Warden of the 
 county who, by some strange aceident 
 —there being no reaction— was a Coii- 
 iiervativo— and the niajoiity of the 
 reeves of the lownshij)s, although 
 there was no reaction, being, by sonic 
 strange ooincidonco Conservatives; 
 the County Council was a<ljoiirned to 
 attend the Conservative meeting, and 
 the Warden of the county was elected 
 president of the Conservative Associa- 
 tion — yet there was no reaction any- 
 where in that county. The Premier 
 had assured us that, from personal 
 observations, ho could tell the public 
 there was no reaction, nothing to 
 indicate any change in ])ublic opinion; 
 but he would tind'"that the people luul 
 weighed the (Tovernment in the balance 
 and had found them wanting. Tlie in- 
 fluence of that reaction was to be seen in 
 this House to-day. lie well remember- 
 ed, when he came in, that the Con- 
 servatives stood a small but compact 
 body, presenting an undaunted front 
 to the foe, and that they were 
 taunted with being a "corporal's 
 guard," with being the " shrinlving 
 baker's dozen following the dishonest 
 member for Kingston," with being an 
 "inefficient Opposition," ''not darin<r 
 to express their opinions," but they 
 were biding their time, they knew 
 their opportunity well, they had 
 allowed the Crovernment plenty of 
 rope, and now they were at the" end 
 of the rope, and the resuli need not be 
 mentioned for it would bo very well 
 known. 
 
 Mr. DYMOND: Ifo who came to 
 the end of the rope hung himself. 
 
 Mr. plumb said the hon, member 
 was nothing if not critical and elo- 
 quent and brilliant. Tho right hon. 
 member for Kingston had said ho 
 was neither critical, nor eloquent, nor 
 brilliant. What followed? Ho left 
 the conclusion to his hon. friend. The 
 reaction was manifest in more than 
 one direction. It was manifest in the 
 
 altered feelings of this House, in the 
 :<ttitudo taken by the gentlemen on 
 the ftovernnient side when a mem- 
 ber of the Up|io>ition rose to address 
 the House. Ho lomemberod when he 
 remonstrated, a few years ago, not 
 with violence, but with calmness, nj)on 
 the insane idea of building a tolegi'aph 
 ('•r the Pacilic Haihvay before the 
 line of the road was (lecidoil upon. Ho 
 knew it was u ridiculous waste of 
 money, that it could be of no possible 
 -ervice, that it was for the use of tho 
 road itself that the telegraph line was 
 principallj' designed. Ho did not see 
 that the contractois for building the 
 tclcgraj)!! line were to be entrusted by 
 tho (rovernment with the ariluoua 
 and impoi-tant duty of mapping out the 
 track of the I'aciric liaihvay. The line 
 of telegraph trom Fort William to 
 Kdmonton was completed. They knew 
 that it was not on the lino of the road ; 
 yoi, when he bad attempted to direct 
 tho attention of the House to it, the 
 hon. members of the other side, tho 
 claqueurs 
 
 Mr SPEAKIOR declared the expres- 
 sion out of order. 
 
 Mr. plumb said there had been a 
 
 decidoil change. Those gentlemen had 
 
 seen that the small minority which 
 
 they had derided was (juito competent 
 
 to con'uct the business of Her 
 
 Majesty's Opposition in such a way 
 
 that, if it did not command their 
 
 respect, at least, it commanded their 
 
 deference, and they were i-athor (juiet 
 
 just now when the Opposition rose to 
 
 make a statement. Ho was one of 
 
 those who were singled out as the 
 
 special mark of the small witlings on 
 
 tbo other side, gentlemen who used 
 
 tbeir heels and hands as a means of 
 
 argument, and who, to the best of his 
 
 recollection, had never given evidence 
 
 to the House that they ever used 
 
 their heads in any direction. Now, 
 
 the}- were told there was no policy 
 
 with which the other siUo intended to 
 
 go to the country. They wore told 
 
 tho Atiministration could do nothing 
 
 towards meeting the demands of the 
 
 peojde of Canada; that there was no 
 
 issue. Well, thoro was an issue so 
 
 broad that nothing could bridge it 
 
 over. There must bo stand on one 
 
 side or the other ; there should be no 
 
38 
 
 compromise ; they had nailed their 
 colours to the mast, and intended to 
 keep them floutin^r there xuitil tliey 
 carried their forces to victory. The 
 Government had no policy but vitupe- 
 ration and a fiscal policy which had 
 accumulated deficits upon a prostrate 
 country; they saw the people starving, 
 but they di-evv their salaries and paid 
 no heed to their appeals; they said 
 fio Government could do anything to 
 aid the suffering industries of the coun- 
 try. "Well, the Opposition would meet 
 them upon that issue. The Government 
 offei'ed nothing to the great outcry 
 raised all over the country for aid to 
 alleviate the great depression. Their 
 whole course had been to aggravate, 
 as far as his observation extended, 
 that depression. They had not even 
 made a movement in a contrary direc- 
 tion. There was nothing left to be 
 hoped for from the present Govern- 
 ment ; and he believed the public 
 would rise in their might and power, 
 and place at the head" of affairs, the 
 very first opportunity, those who would 
 endeavour, at least, to enquii-o into 
 and meet in some manner, if they 
 could not fully alleviate, the great dis- 
 tress and suffering which ])revailed. 
 He knew it could be said that the dis- 
 tress and suffering were too deeply 
 rooted to pass away in a day. But 
 the policy which ought to be adopted 
 was not a palliative policy ; it should 
 be a permanent one. The Opposition 
 did not believe in any temporary ex 
 
 podient by which there might be a 
 slight increase in the tariff to meet 
 the exigencies of the moment ; they 
 did not believe in any temporary 
 palliative, but a deeper and larger 
 diagnosis than had ever been made by 
 hon. gentleman on the other side. It 
 was not foj" the Opposition to prescribe, 
 until called upon by the patient, 
 although the patient was ill, and 
 nigh unto death. They could criticise 
 the practice of the professional gentle- 
 men who stood ai'ound the bed-side, 
 but these gentlemen had no right to 
 ask them to measure out the dose until 
 they called them in to feel the patient's 
 pulse and note the symptoms. But, 
 when called in, they would be prepared, 
 to prescribe. The hon. member for 
 South Greuville (Dr. Brouse) knew 
 well it was contrary to all pro- 
 fessional etiquette to act until the 
 attending practitioner was dismissed. 
 He (Mr. Plumb) trusted the patient 
 would soon see it was for his own 
 intei-est, if he expected to live, to dis- 
 miss the quacks in attendance, and 
 call in. those who could make an in- 
 telligent diagnosis and prescribe pro- 
 perly. He thanked the House for its 
 attention, and would not tax its patience 
 further than to express his obligations 
 to it; and he trusted that the dis- 
 cussions on the questions he had treated 
 would continue until they were bi'ought 
 before the country ; when, he doubted 
 not, the result would be in favour 
 of the Opposition side of the House. 
 
 M.icl^ean, Roger & Co., Parliamentary and Departmental Printers, Ottawa, Ont.