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Read in the Rooms of the National Association for the Promotion of Social Science hy THOMAS BR IGGS, And ptihlished in their " Sessional Froceedings," Vol. II., No. 2G, jj^grc 519, • June '17th, 1869, William Pollard Urquhart, Esq., M.P., in the Chair. TO WHICH IS ADDED THE iDJOURNED DISCUSSION ON .THE SAME. Published in Vol IL, No. 27, pai/c 535, July 1st, ISC,9. m: To he had, Price 2d., AT THE OFFICE OF THE ASSOCIATION— 1, ADAM STREET, ADELPIII, W.C. 1869. LONDON : PRINTED BY W. W. HEAD, VICTOUIA PRESS, 11, 12, & 13, HARP ALLEY, FARUINGDON STREET, B.C. i I ON THE BELATIONS OF THE COLONIES TO THE MOTHER COUNTRY CONSIDERED FROM AN AGRICULTURAL, ECONOMICAL, AND COMMERCIAL POINT OF VIEW. "Behold us here so many thousands — millions— and increasing at the rate of fifty every hour. We are right willing and able to work, and on the planet earth is plenty of work and wages for a million times as many. '' We ask if you mean to load ug towards work 1 Try to lead us, by ways new, never yet heard of, till this new unheard of time ; or if you declare you cannot lead us, and expect that we are to remain quietly unlcd, and in a composed manner die of starvation 1 What is it you moan to do with us ] *' This question I say has been put in the hearing of all Britain, and will be again put, and ever again till some answer be given" — Carlyle in 1843. " Past and Present." My interest in the colonies commenced in 1851, when I saw that Australia could produce cotton worth 45. to As. 6d. per lb. ; two bales of which I myself examined at the London Exhibition, at the time when the best Sea Island cotton of America, could be bought for about Ss. per lb. ; I began to think there were hopes for old England yet. The four cardinal points which secured to the Americans the monopoly of the supply of this indispensable raw material, were not, it is true, achieved as yet in Australia, namely : — 1st. Quality. 2nd. Quantity. 3rd. Price. And 4 th. Permanency of Supply. But as to the first, viz., quality, there it was before our I eyes, two hiilcs from Sidney, New Soutli Wales, worth from 45. to 4.9. Cxi. per lb. ; this was a fact no one attempted to gainsay. Now as to our second cardinal point, the grand stumbling block, the asses' bridge as it were, of tlie problem ; I found that the colony of Queensland was the seat of Australian cotton growing, and this colony did not then possess a popu- lation of 50,000 Eouls, and these were principally engaged in wool growing; want of labour was the universal cry as being an insurmountab)3 obstacle to cotton growing. In point of quantity, therefore, the case was apparently a hopeless one ; but if by any means we could divert the stream of emigration from west to south-east it would go far in the course of a few years to remove this impediment, for we were at that moment (and have been ever since) I)ractically building a new cit3'', of from 10,000 to 12,000 souls, every month for our ungrateful cousins across the Atlantic ; * who are now making a profit of 100 per cent, on that labour, to the extent of 300,000,000 of dollars, on cotton growing alone, whilst our manufacturing population are starving on their losses in manipulating it. In face of this, still they go ; 10,000 to 12,000 a month of our best and thriftiest " sons of toil " are emigrating from Liverpool to the United States, leaving the colonies and the home labour markets (as a rule). Only the criminal, tlie pauper, the infant, tlie aged, the ignorant, the imbecile, the vagrant, and the sturdy beggar to choose from. Knowing that the material and social well-being of the whole British empire depended mainly, upon the four car- dinal points being brought to a successful issue, and in this view I might quote numerous facts as corroborant evidence — for instance, since the Elizabethan era this country has drifted by natural laws from being an agricul- tural to that of a manufacturing and commercial country, so much so that, as far back as 1855, we had steam machi- nery and power which represented " 500,000,000 ' pairs of hands — (See Nicholson, " On Moral and Social Progress.") AVill it not thereiorc occur to every thinking man that, in stopping the supply of cotton you stop the greater part of British industry? By way of illustration let us state the facts ; first, that 600,000 odd of British workmen went to .A.merica during the four years' war ; second, that if they * Since tliis was written tliey havo increased to 28,000 a inontli. I d( ful t(. bk of all on liad gone to a Brit'iHli cotton gi*owln2f colony, which had f^ivcn a homestead to cacli ta.nily of KH) acres — say six to each family — this would give 100,01)0 families, producing at the rate of 200/. each fatnily for the second year's opera- tions of cotton, besides finding themselves in provisions, say 2,000,000 bales of cotton. This would involve the building of 333 ships of 1,000 tons eacli; would not the Millwall slii[i- building industry feel the ctFects of such an operation ? Tlie canvas and sail makers, the railways, the mines, and a thousand others too numerous to be stated here, avouUI feel the beneficent effects brought about by a sound colonial land policy. Moreover, are we not borne out by tlie state of tilings at Preston and elscwliere, by the memorials from the chambers of commerce ; and by the operatives at Preston praying Her Majesty's Government " to take stc[)s to increase the supply of cotton in British territories ? " There are other points which I will bring before you, show- ing further obstacles which still hang like mill-stones round our necks. What is it that has made the United States of America what they are ? What, save the boundless supply of land that enables every man on the other side of the Atlantic, who has willins: hands and an averaire brain, to command all the conveniencies and comforts of life ? Mr. Torrens, M.P. for Cambridge, says — " The Cro"\vn lands of the colonies belong to the whole people of the British Empn^e, and not exclusively to the companitivc few already settled there." What evidence have we that the colonial governments appreciate this view of the fiuestion? What evidence have Ave that tends to prove the colonies to be just, generous, and loyal to the mother country? None — absolutely nothing but empty words. On the contrary, we have abundant evi- dence to prove that they are, in too many instances, ungrate- ful, hostile, and arrogant. First — They are ungrateful, inasmuch as they have taken, with the connivance of our unwise statesmen at home, gratui- tous possession of that unbounded territory on which we are too apt to boast " the sun never sets." Territory won by the blood, the treasure, the indomitable courage and perseverance of our forefathers, and at the expense of the tax-payers of all Britain, and which they now wish to keep in a state of 6 nature for ail time to come ratlicr than ofFer the land to our people here in free grants, in such proportions as would induce them to go and settle down amongst them to till the soil, build their cities, make their railroads, extend their naviga- tion, assist Nature by irrigation works, where necessary, &c., &c., &c., whilst we are taxing ourselves to the tune of millions annually for their protection. Secondly — Hostile they most assuredly are when they pass laws to bar our commerce, and by their tariffs obstruct our trade with them, to the hurt of both. Thirdly — And for their arrogance I would refer to the correspondence in the newspapers of a recent date, objecting to our convict settlements in our own colonies. The assertion of this last pretension might have been respected provided they had acknowledged the rights of all immigrants of good character to grants of land, under a similar law to that of the Homestead Law of the United States — 1 repeat, to all immi- gr.ants — whether Britons or not, so long as they are of good character, willing to be naturalized, and settle down as civi- lized men, " for how know you but that, by so doing, you may entertain an angel unawares." The Homestead Law tends to fix them to the soil, cements their affections to the government and the country who have ])laced them in the position to enable them, in every sense of the word, to reap the fruits of their own labour. It also tends to create a thrifty yeoman class, lovers of law and order, always ready to come to the rescue when their adopted country may, by any chance, need their services. It also tends to make broad acres wave with corn side by side with gold fields, as witnessed in California. Well might Cobtlcn, when he heard of the American Homestead Law being passed, exclaim, " That law will virtually depopulate Europe." When a man severs himself from his native country, from his family circle, and all that is dear to him, and this from dire necessity for want of employment, and settles down in a land thousands of miles off, a land requiring the hand of man to convert it from a " howling wilderness into a fruitful field ; " can it be a mattci' of doubt in the minds of the rulers of that country that this man is entitled to claim so much of the soil as will suffice for a homestead for the subsistence of himself and the family he brings with him ? Mr. Torrens had spoken in favour of Edward Gibbon Wakefield*8 Land Law of 1834 j a plan for selling the lund of the colonies at 1/. per acre, in order to raise a fund for the purpose of promoting nniiiigration. Subsequently tlic American government passed a law by which land, even within town sites, should be alienated at 1^ dollars, or about 5.f. per acre, and some time after, finding the benefi- cent effects of that liberal i)olicy, they enacted that, in all new territory the State should grant 160 acres in fee simple to every family settling down outside a town site, on the sole consideration of residing thereon, and cultivating 10 per cent, in five years. This is what is termed the Homestead Law, and was a recognition of the rights of labour, under the oi)eration of which a wedding of labour to the soil is effected, which Adam Smith says, '* is the source of all wealth," and the only way, under God's blessing, in a new country to create the greatest happiness for the greatest number. By this law every man finds a field for hia labour, and an employer that he will nevoi strike against, namely, himself; and his wages come direct from ** the Giver of all good things." As Benjamin Franklin says, " The surest bank ever a man drew against, was a bank of earth, if he only took care of it." Every emigrant, so settled will have an interest, stimulated by eve^'-y motive of self-preservation and social economy, in bringing over others in almost countless numbers, to help him in the mighty work before him, and the result is, as we now all of us find, a nation in the West who can defy the world in arms, whose agriculture puts to shame all nations upon earth, and whose commerce and manufactures, were it not for the blighting in- fluence of hostile protective tariffs, would very soon outweigh our own, and that to our mutual good. Now let us view the effects of the policy adopted in our colonies, initiated, as I before said, by the efforts of Edward Gibbon Wakefield, some thirty years ago, which policy was suggested originally by John S. Mill (at least so Mr. Mill himself asserted on the platform, in one of his speeches when he was first a candidate for Westminster). This plan was suggested, and acted upon in the onset, no doubt with the best of motives, but, as the sequel has already proved, it has had the most baneful effect upon — first, the manhood — secondly, the material wealth — and thirdly, the moral fame and prestige of the British name throughout the whole civi- lized world. Moreover, it has caused our colonies to remain a perpetuul blank on the map of the world. I'hat the manhood is lost to this country is evident from the 8 fact tliat the flower of our nrtlzau labour and ca[)ital are fast drifting to a country where, on their settling down, they become England'n haters. This state of feeling ia brought on by the system of hostile taritl's before named, ostensibly for the protection of home manufactures, but really and practi- cally to put money into the jmckets of a few manufacturers, at tho ex])ense of the rest of the community of the United States. Not only that, but, most probably, also from the love and att'cction for the country which has provided them a homestead, and thereby brightened their prospects for generations to come — that has lifted them from the brink of ])auperism to a state which enables them to live l)y honest labour — in fact to a state of semi-independence — these will all have their due weight in alienating their afFections from the old country, for '* where a man's treasure ij, there will his heart be also." IJut you may naturally ask, " How has Mr. "Wakefield's plan cfFocted all this evil, seeing that the land Avas to be sold at 1/. per acre, and the money used for promoting emigration ? " There are so many point.^ condemnatory of the policy, as being one diametrically oppo.^ed to sound iirinciples of political economy, that it would be beyond the limits of this paper to cite a tenth part of them — suffice it to say that, to sell a thing it requires two parl'ns, viz., a buyer and a seller. ITow can you expect an emigrant to go 14,000 miles from home to buy an article for 1/. Avhen he can get as good, if not a better article, 4,000 miles offj for 5s. ? Moreover, how can you expect to sell an acre of land for 11. , when it is notorious it is not worth the tenth part of a farthing ? Now, it is well known that the latter price is the value set upon the land by the colonial government when they, through their commissioners, were in London, treating for the cession of the whole territory in bulk, and unfortunateh/ for this country y and also for the colonies, our statesmen of the day gave it up to them, without conditions of any hind as to its alienation to British subjects for all future time until the land was fully settled. They might, with quite as much wisdom, have passed an Act of Tarliament enforcing every man to sell his wool at 20s. per lb. Can we have stronger evidence of the utter failure of the pound an acre policy than the fact that they have, of late years, every session of the local parliament, been tinkering and trying to amend it by adopting a more liberal one, but 9 vested interests havinp^ j^rown up and blcndod with the orip^inal evil [)olicy, the ditlicultics of altering; tlic law so as to meet iho necessity of the case were found to be ahnost insurmount- able. Anotlicr proof is found in the fact that the Act has been invariably evaded, and in many of the colonics the land revcmie has been mi8api)lied. INIorcovcr, (ind iJiis is the pht of the whole qurstwriy this pound an acre policy ha.s rendered the colonies of Great llritain places to be avoided by tlie thrifty cmii^rant who can ])ay his own passage and support himself until his first crop can be made available for his sustenance. Hence the colonial governments, as a ride, are obliged to receive their immigrants in forma pau]>c}'is. This fact alone is sufficient to dispose of the three propositions before alluded to. Let us now glance at the state of affairs as they now stand at home. The country is agitated throughout its length and brcau h ; the people are feeling the pressure of a w^ant of employ- ment, and famine prices for all necessaries and comforts of life. The agitation has taken the shape of a pressure upon (ilovernment for some help towards emigration for the people This has been followed by a debate in the House of Lords, In the Times'' report of that debate Lord Houghton is nuide to say, " With regard to emigration to our Australian and other colonics ihe numbers were in 1808,196,000; in 1867, 195,000, and in 1803, 223,000." Now, on referring to the ofificial returns 1 find that in 1868 the Australian grouji got less than two tliousand, and Canada less than sixteen thousand; ]' lord- shij) must therefore have included the emigration to the United States for that year in his figures, consequently the latter country must have taken the bulk of the remainder, which is about the usual proportion, viz., ll-12ths of the whole emigration of the country. There is none of Gibbon WdhfiehCs jilan there, but t: .re is a Homestead Laiv, Lord Granville treats the subject as a grim joke, his quotations about our Irish brethren having eent 14,000,000/., wherewith to fetch their kith and kin over to join them at the other side of the Atlantic, has more significance in it than his lordship is aware of; and if his lordship has granted the Hudson's Bay Territory to the Canadian Government without taking the material guarantee that they will pass an Act making it a fundamental principle of their constitution 1o grant a Homestead Law as liberal, if not more so, than the 10 Homestead Law of the United States, and also that there shall be entire free trade between the dominion and the mother country, and thereby secure a mutual bond of peace — I say, if his lordship has not taken such guarantee, he has com- mitted the Isst act of a series of wrongs upon the people of this country, which have been promoted in th«. Colonial Office ever since the policy of granting self-government for the colonies was inaugurated. It was pointed out by letter to a noble lord in 1864, that such a policy was pregnant with infinite danger to future geneiations of Britons, a\id more especially to the colonies themselves. If his lordship has taken the said guarantee, then I would recommend as a further safeguard for the proper administration of the oame, the insertion of a clause In the contract some- thing to the same effect as the following extract from a Bill 25 & 26 Vict., September, 1862, entitled, "A Bill to entitle Her Majesty to erect North Australia into a British colony, and to provide for the colonization thereof.'" I am not aware that this Bill was ever passed, but the words I principally rely upon are found in page 4, section 6, and which run as follows: — " Her Majesty from time to time hereafter at her pleasure, testified by writing under the hand of a Secretary of State, may appoint five fit persons to bo Crovvai Commissioners j and those Comnis- aioners shall be one body politic and corporate, by the name of the Commissioners for North Australia, with perpetual succession, and a common seal ; and by that name shall sue and be sued ; and those Commissioners shall, in the name and behalf of Her Majesty, hold all the waste lands under this Act in North Australia, m trust for t/n people of the British Empire at large ; and shall be and remain incorporate so long as there are in North Australia any was^e lands undisposed of." If there be any truth in the above plain statements, and I contend ihere is not only truth but also the very essence of economy, justice, common senr.^, and sound policy, then I contend, as do nine-tenths of my fellow working men who have thought the matter over without party or personal pre- judice, tiiat every honest Englishman, Irishman, or Scotch- man, on setting his foot on the shores of a British colony, no matter how, so long as he lawfully gets there, has the inalienable right to a free grant out of the undisposed of Crown lands, sufficient in quantity and quality to maintain himself I u and family in comfort, so long as ho is willing to settle down, clear and cultivate it, and conform in all other respects to the laws of the local and general government. Finally, let our Governri'^nt and tliose of our colonies recognise the principle that it is a grievous wrong and a suicidal policy to seek to raise a revenuo out of the first alienation of the waste Crown lands of the colonies, and it is equally wrong to grant large tracts to one individual as a rule. Let them also recognise the fact that inter- colonial^ free trade is the only intercolonial bond of peace and amity, and that universal free trade is the only pioneer to universal peace, they will then find a "will "''as there is also to be found a ** way " to inaugurate an era which the poet had in view when he said — " Let each man seek liis own in all men's good, And all men work in noble brotherhood." DISCUSSION. William Pollard-Urquiiart, Esq., M.P., in the Chair. Among the gentlemen present were :— Mr. S. L. Brandreth, Mi . Thomas Briggs, Mr. Pragjee Bhunjee, Mr. Charles Clark, Mr. Hugh Colebrooke, Mr. C. J. Cross, Mr. George Duddecr, Mr. J. J. Easdan, Sir George Grey, Bart., Mr. Harding, Mr. Frederic Hill, Mr. George Hurst, Mr. Samuel Johnson, Mr. S. A. Joseph, Mr. A. King, Miss Lewin, Mr. George Macdonald, Mr. Mallard, Mr. J. Maunder, Mr. H. N. Mozley, Mr. John Noble, Mr. Pears, Sir Christopher Rawlinson, Mr. Daniel Sheriff, Mr. Cowell Stepney, Mr. R. R. Torrens, M.P., Mr. R. D. Walker, Mr. James Wheeler. Mr. W. H. Williams. Mr. Noble thought that in the Western States of America the state of feeling which prevailed was very much more favourable to England than that which was to bo found along the shores of the Atlantic. As we have allowed the colonies to govern themselves, he thought that we could not possibly take any kind of guarantee in the way which had been suggested. We might make bargains with our colonies, but, supposing that we did so in matters which concerned their internal government, we could have no kind of security that they would keep terms with us, unless we were prepared to go to war with them. We have granted them freedom, and must therefore allow them free government. He disagreed with the reader of the paper in what he had said in reference to the convict question. It was easy to understand that the colonies should not 12 wish to be burdened wiUi our criminals ; at tlic same time, while conceding Avhat was just and fair to tbo colonies, they ougbt not to be allowed to tax us. Mr. Macdonalj only rose to say that ho had been sorry to find throughout America a strong feeling of antagonism to England. In Canada, however, no such feeling existed; hence, ho thought England ought rather to attempt to send emigrants to Canada in preference to the United States. Mr. Peaks called attention to two features in the paper. In the first place the writer made great and unfair complaint against the Australian colonics, and in the second ho had drawn a comparison between Australia and America, in some respects unjust to America. Australia was found fault with because she had no Homestead Law like that existing in the United States. But Mr. Briggs made the common mistake of supposing that the resources of Australia wero as great as those of Anierica. Australia was nearly as big as Europe, but her amount of available land was very small. With the best desire to obtain immigrants, none of the colonies could afford to give so much land as America could offer. Still, ail the colonies offered inducements. Some had a Homestead Law. In Tasmania he might have 1,000 acres, gratis, if he would con- sent to live where such an amount of land was given. Australia had been called disloyal ; but last year, when the attempt was made on the life of the Duke of Edinburgh, the people of New South Wales had passed an Act which could only be described as frantically and absurdly loyal, an Act which certainly no English Parliament Avould have consented to pass. She had been described as arrogant, and the proof offered wa3, that she refused to receive our convicts. He did not see the arrogance in refusing to become the receptacle of all the criminals of the empire. In Tasmania, when the agitation against transportation went on, half the people were or had been convicts. There Avere convict schoolmasters, convict officials, and convict servants. No free labourer Avould stay in the island because he would have to work side by side with convicts. Slave labour in any form, and convict Labour was one of the worst forms of slave labour, disparaged free labour. The free people of the colonies had learned this, saw their children growing up surrounded by an atmosphere of crime, had a proportion of crime and criminals among tliem which far exceeded anything people here had any notion of, and resolved, arrogantly as Mr. Briggs thought, justly as he (Mr. Pears) believed, to tell Great Britain that they would no longer receive her re- fuse. Australia was spoken of as hostile to England because she had, in some instances, introduced prohibitory tariffs. But there was no hostile cc any other sentiment about their protection. It arose simply from a conviction that free trade was not a good policy for a new country. He believed they were wrong, 13 but they had something to '^.ay on theu' side of the question. Mr. Briggs thought self-government ought not to have been given to tho colonies. The simple fact v^as that England had proved her entire incompetence to govern them from home. English government of Australia was rapidly reaching a stage near that which America occupied when our misgovernment drove the American colonists into revolt. Englishmen, grown wiser, resolved that the best thing they could do in the case of Australia was to allow the people to govern themselves. He differed also from Mr. Briggs in thinking that emigration to the United States was an unmixed evil. English- men who go there carry a love of England along with th.m. At present the only British subjects who find their way to America are Irishmen, who carry with them, rightly or wrongly, hatred to England. If four millions of Englishmen had found their way to the Union within the same time, the English vote would be as worth cultivating as the Irish now is, and abuse of everything English would not pay venal politicians. Mr. H. N. MozLEY thought that in the speech which they had just heard, there was a dangerous but very common fallacy; 'hat because we had allowed the colonists a certain control over their affairs, therefore they ought to be as independent of us as foreign states. He (Mr. Mozley) did not think that independence, in the best sense, meant independence of all restraint, but that there was a point beyond which independence was an evil and not a good. As between different sovereign govcrnmeiits this kind of indepen- dence existed, but it was a necessary evil, and often gave rise to war, there being no authority in any (juarter to settle peaceably any quarrel which might arise. Of course his remarks pointed to a fv Jeral union between the mother country and the colonies. With regard to our sending convicts to Australia, he thought it unreasonable for the South Eastern Australians to complain of our sending convicts to Western Australia. With regard to protection, he did not desire to express any opinion, « priori, as to the relative merits of the protectionist and free trade systems ; but l^e thought that if free trade was good for anything, it ought to be mutual. Not long ago we had a discussion on the question of disarmament. It was theu alleged that it would be a good thing if every state would reduce its military establishment. But he had then expressed an opinion that it would bo simply mischievous for Great Britain alone to do so. So with regard to free trade. It might be a good thing if every State would adopt it; but Great Britain was put at a manifest disadvantage in relation to tho colonies by adopting a system of free trade, if they adopted a policy of protection. Mr. ToRRENS, M.P., roso in order to call attention to one of the remarks of the last speaker. The colonics ho maintained had a right to resist tho sending of convicts to adjacent colonies. Western 14 Australia was a barren country from which the prisoners invariably escaped as soon as they couhl and found their way to the nearest countries, that is to the other Australian colonies. He did not think that the objection against convicts would be so great if England would consent to take them back again on the expiration of their sentences. But when their sentences had expired, or when they received conditional pardons they did not or could not return to this country, but were compelled to go to the Eastern and Southern colonies of Australia. The consequence was that the people had found themselves deluged with criminals. In South Australia they had hardly known what crime was until escaped convicts began to find their way into the colony. For years he had had no lock on his door. But at length these scoundrels came and there was an end to comfort. South Australia had been compelled to pass an Act fining any captain who should bring a convict to her shores. If Englishmen wanted to understand the evil of which the Australians complain let them remember the outcry they make because they, with a population of thirty millions, have to absorb their own criminal population. And yet they wished Australia, with a population of only two millions and a half, to absorb the same number. Australians had a criminal population of their own which was more than enough without supplies from Europe. It was perfectly true, as had been stated, that the misgovernraent of England had some years ago driven the colonies to the verge of rebellion. He himself had quite sym- pathised with the movement, and %vas ready to take part in it. Things were no doubt better now, but they were by no meax»s in so satisfactory a state as they ought to be. The colonies have no kind of representation in England, and no means by which their wishes can be made known. The ignorance of Englishmen on all colonial questions was very great. On the other hand, England had her representatives in each of the colonies in the governors who were sent out. He should be glad to see some kind of scheme devised by which representatives from each of the colonic? might be able to meet together in England to confer on what was best for colonial and imperial interests. As for the imputations which had been made on Australian loyalty we had only to look Et the amounts subscribed for objects like the Patriotic Fund^ the relief of the Lancashire operatives and others, to see that they were groundless. England had no right to cry out about the protective duties intro- duced into the colonies. She had herself been many years in learning the lesson of free trade. He could remember the time when England took Canadian corn duty free, but would not allow Australian to come into the market, except on payment of a heavy duty. The explanation was that England thought it desirable then to offer special indiicements to Canada. But it showed that Eng- land had adopted free trade on the same principle as that on whidi 16 some of tlic Australlang have adopted protection. Free trade with one place was good, with another was bad. Mr. Frederic Hill : In nearly the whole of the interesting speech which we have just heard from my iend, Mr. Torreus, I heartily agree ; though from the last of his ^"^ conclusions I must dissent. I hold that we ought lot to look forward to the time when the colonies will be separate from this country ; an'^ that we should not, therefore, prepare for such separation. The progress of civiliza- tion is surely not separation but aggregation, not division but union ; and so long as this great ' empire is wisely and justly governed, the better in my opinion it will be for every part of it that it should remain one compact whole. The more closely, how- ever, to cement the different parts, we should do well to adopt, without further delay, the suggestion of Adam Smith, referred to by Mr. Torrens, of allowing the colonies to send representatives to the Imperial Lsgislature ; and thus to place them, in all respects, on terms of equality. I have long desired to witness this change, and have even indulged in the wish to see, in the free Parliament of England, a representative from every foreign country worthy of being counted as a portion of the civilized world. A representative, for example, from the United States, from France, from Germany, and from Italy. By such an arrangement, I believe many a prejudice would be removed, and many a cause of war prevented. With regard, however, to our colonies, if we admit them t,o the full rights of partnership we may reasonably expect that they will take 'ipon them also its full duties. On what principle of justice can we be expected to maintain a powerful fleet for the protection of the whole empire, without any contribution to its cost from the colonies; that is from the very parto of the empire most exposed to attack. Our conduct towards our colonies has too often fluctuated between oppression and weak con- cession — between treating them first as enemies and then as spoiled children. Such policy is bad for both parties, and the sooner we sub- stitute for it terms of justice, equality, and mutual benefit the better. Mr. D. Sheriff observed that, in reference to the remarks that had been made respecting the restrictions laid on imports into Canada from this country, owing to the want of a similar reciprocity being recognised in our imports from Canada here, that this objection, so far as applied to both corn and timber, had been removed, as no duty was now chargeable on either. He quite agreed in the observations made by Mr. Noble, that in the various plans that had been suggested for emigration, too little consideration had been given to some means of employment for our people at home, and though emigration to a certain extent might be advantageous, the national loss that might yet arise from the bono and sinew of our country leaving to excess could not be evfen exaggerated. What but our great skill and industry has made our nation what it is ? If the great drain from emigration rendered work scarce and more expensive, we should be unable to If! I I 16 foresee tlio loss that might ultimately ensue in our national prosperity To such an extent had our merchant seamen gone abroad, and into the American mercantile employment, that one-fourth of our present merchant service was composed of foreign sailors. Though there might bo a difficulty in finding how our population could possibly bo retained and employed at homo, the object ought not to be less regarded as one of the most valuable of considerations, although it would bo too tedious to refer to these particulars in detail. Sir George Grey called attention to the present form of colonial government, which he regarded as in many respects unsatisfactory. The fact Avas, that it consisted of a colonial department, containing a certain number of fixed officials, and a Secretary of State, who was changed every now and then, Avho had a seat in the Cabinet and in the House of Lords, and who from having his time thus almost constantly taken up witli other matters, had very little opportunity of becoming acquainted with the business of his special office. Prac- tically the whole of the colonial government of the empire was left in the hands of this officer of State. Parliament takes no interest in colonial questions. Occasionally, but very rarely, a question was put having reference to colonial questions. There have been since the beginning of the present year a series of massacres in New Zealand, of which the accounts have been constantly coming in. One such has come by this mail. Not a question has been asked on the subject, in either Ilonse of Parliament. When a question is asked, it leads sometimes to the publication of dispatches in a muti- lated form. Some are not published at all, and when inquiry is made as to the omissions, the public is informed that they were not judged of sufficient importance to be printed. When a year or two has passed, they, as likely as not, are printed at length. AVithin the last few days he had seen a dispatch in the newspapers, insulting to the colonists of New Zealand, and one which he was quite sure would create the bittererest ill-feeling, and was likely to lead to murders. It was written in the most reckless manner in regard to the opinions of colonists, and so carelessly, that the last paragraph was absolutely unintelligible. And yet no notice had been taken of it in Parliament. When it reached New Zealand the colonies it would produce great excitement. Here it was passed over as unworthy of notice. Ho did not think it would be desirable to allow any form of coloniil representation in our present House of Commons. There were a variety of English questions which were peculiarly English ratlier than imperial, and in such it is not likely, nor would it be desirable, that English people would like colonists to take any share. But he would approve of a proposal to have another House in Vfhich there should bo a representation of each of the colonics, and in fact of every portion of the empire. The best thing, he believed, would bo that the Colonial Secretary should have a council appointed to assist him, like the 17 Indian Council. At present lio 1ms no chance of becoming:; acquainted with the colonial aspect of (questions. By such a i)lau the whole empire would then be bound the moi'c firmly together, and such a scheme of emigration might be devised as would enable England, without depris^ing herself of the hibour she requires at home, to get rid of her pauperism. Mr. Clatik had listened to the remarks of the last speaker with admiration and sorrow. Sorrow, because he felt that it was true that England was guilty of neglect towards her colonies, ai. '. admiration of the suggestions which had been made for improving the representation of the colonies in England. lie quite agreed that some kind of representation like that which had been suggested ought to be devised, and he believed it wouhl work well. We had given free- dom to our colonies lv^d that he hoped would prevent the recurrence of any of those dangerous struggles between the mother country and the colonies, which were so much to be deplored. The fact was, red tape had been the sourse of the mischief. England desired to do justice but had not the requisite knowledge- It was this which seemed to him to be the great argument in favour of granting self-government to the colonies. England never had Ihft requisite knowledge of details to enable her to govern her colonies 7-3II. She therefore gave self-gc /ernment to the colonists. He aj, od with a previous speaker, that so far as the mere abstract princ.j.le v/as concerned England had the right to send her convicts to Western Australia. The country belonged to her and she might use it as a national prison if she thought well. But Mr. Torrens had explained the great difficulty when he said that the land in the convict settlements was bad and that therefore the men got away at once to other places. While, therefore the principle was right, the practical result was mischievous. He thought we required a council in which the colonies should have some kind of representation. Tlie colonies should supply a parliament to advise the Colonial Secretary as to what steps he ought to take. In reference to the relations betwe^^n England and her colonies there was this to be said, that there comes a time when, like father and son, the interests of the two countries are in in strong opposition. But in the case of our colonies, in- dependently of all mere rules of government, the great fact to be kept prominently before us is that the more united we are the belter for both ourselves and them. The Chairman thought an assumption had been made in the papers which was certainly against his impression of what was the fact, namely, that the colonies were not progressing. He should like to have had some more satisfactory data on that question. His own opinion w^as they were making satisfactory progress. He was inclined to think that there was better farming in Australia than in America. In the States land was cultivated without being manured, or without any rotation of crops, and was thus completely worn out in a few years. 1l I ' ' '^ I ,■ ' I 18 The remedy of the Americans waa then to take new lands in place ol those whicli they had thus exhausted. As for what we understood by high farming in this country, it was extremely doubtful whether it existed in America to any considerable extent. He would like to have had statistics showing the number of Englishmen wlio go to America. He knew that the Irish went there in greater numbers than elsewhere, but the people who emigrate from that portion of Scotland which he knew best went to Canada. The feeling of hostility which existed to a considerable extent in America was due partly to the recollections of the conduct of England at the lime of the American revolution, and was thus partly traditionary, partly to the fact that the greater number of immigrants who reach their shores from these islands are from Ireland, and partly of course to the events of the late war. These causes were to a great extent temporary, and would be likely therefore to produce only a tempora^'y feeling of hostility. There was a tendency perhaps to exaggerate the state of distress which prevailed at present in England. We had had similar or even worse distress in 1830, when corn was burnt, and crimes of great violence had been committed. Again in 1841 there had been great distress in the manufacturing districts, and at a later period still, in 1848, but as the country had lived through these crises so he believed it would through the present, and in a short time we should be able to use all the labour which existed in the country. As to the ques- tion of the land Ifiws of America and Australia, the value at which they sold their land and the comparative advantages which emigrants reaped by going to the one country or to the other, he thought that these questions might all be left to the ordinary action of economic laws. He had been struck with the suggestions of a federal council, and thought it one which was well deserving of careful considera- tion. md Mr. Mozli movi 3econ( " That the thanks of the meeting be given to Mr. Briggs for his paper, and that it be printed and circulated for the use of the meaibers." The motion was carried unanimously. It was resolved that the discussion be adjourned until Wednesday the 23rd iuf^tant, at 8 p.m. H 19 DISCUSSION — continued. The adjourned meeting of the Economy and Trade Depnrtraent for the discussion of Mr. Thomas Briggs's paper " On the Relations of the British Colonies to the Mother Country, considered from an Economical, Agricultural, and Commercial point of view," was held on Wednesday, the 23rd nit. William Poll. itd-Urquiiart, Esq., M.P., in the Chair. Among the gentlemen present were : — Mr. James Barlow, Mayor of Bolton, Mr. John Bate, Mr. E. C. Booth, Mr. IT. S. Braudreth, Mr. Thomas Briggs, Sir George Grey, Bart., Mr. W. J. Harding, Mr. G. W. Hastings, Mr. Frederic Hill, Mr. George Hurst, Mr. R. R. Kirkp Mr. John Noble, Mr. Pears, Mr. S. H. Bawling, Mr. W. Smyth, Mr. Parker Snow, Mr. William Storr, Mr. R. V. Walker, Mr. James Wheeler. Mr. Hurst thought that land in the colonies ought not to be given in perpetuity to anyone, ^ylischief had arisen in this country from adopting a contrary course. The land was the possession of the nation. It ought to remain in the power of the nation, so that at periods not too far separated from each other, the nation might resume it and apply it to such purposes as would be most beneficial to the community. But in the colonies they were establishing a sys- tem of land tenure not unlike that which prevails here. He would suggest that it would be better if they sold the land for a term of years only. Mr. J. Bate regretted he was absent on the evening when this interesting and important paper was read. He desired now to draw particular attention to what he considered to be the main object and argument of the writer, namely, the importance of the colonies to the mother country. The Board of Trade returns of our exports and imports to all parts of the world afforded abundant and con- clusive testimony as to what the possession and colonization of our colonies and possessions confer upon this country ; inasmuch as they show that ihey consume of the products and manufactures of the United Kingdom, annually about one-third (that is 50,000,000/. value) of what is supplied to all the foreign states put together. Were it not for our colonies and dependencies, we should be unable to supply the markets of the world with the produce which is c 2 20 imported here, manufactured, aud rc-cxporlcd back to whence it cumo. And, therefore, it was the duty of every Eiif^litihmau who loved his country, and who desires to promote the well-being of the tens of thousands of our unemployed, now pining in misery and want, to aid and encourage their emigration to British colonies. It would be a worthy object for the Council of this Association to take under its special care, and to ally itself with, what is now ono of tho most pressing of the social questions of the day. It was urged by many, especially those employed in manufactures, that emigration is the bane and not the antidote of this country. Emigration had, on tho contrary, been the source of all our commerce and wealth. Tho best of our skilled and unskilled labour, the most worthy and deserving of our working classes, were now voluntarily emigrating at the rate of 20,000 a month, many of them, with money in their pockets, to a foreign country, there to manufacture and to compete with this country in the markets of the world. Surely, it was the duty of our Government, and of all who were interested in tho welfare of this country, to give to emigration a thoughtful and earnest attention, and to see if some means could be arrived at for diverting that valuable stream of tho best blood of the country from tho United States to the colonies of Australasia, British America, and South Africa. Mr. Hastings said that he regretted the economical heresies which had been put forward in the former discussion. The Association was established to spread a knowledge (among other things) of economic science, and he for one could not acquiesce in any support of economic error. It had been advanced by Mr. Mozley that free trade was only good when t existed on both sides ; that to bo of any benefit it must be reciprocal. He (Mr. M.) seemed to think that if our colonists were so unwise as to impose protective duties on our manufactures, we were to imitate that policy by levying protective duties on colonial exports. Such an argument seemed to be based on a contempt for the most elementary truths of the science of nations. Free trade, whether reciprocated or not, was a good in itself. The more cheaply a nation bought its imports, the more rich and prosperous it was likely to become. Mr, Mozley, it might be presumed, thought that England would be injured by protective duties imposed in tho colonies ; that the sale of her manufactured articles would be so much the less. If this were so, it was a curious remedy to propose that England should still further injure herself by resolv- ing to raise artificially the price of some necessary imports. It was much as if a man, whose profits in business had been reduced, should try to mend matters by paying double prices to his tailor. It was no wondir that in our colonies, Avhcre the proportion of cultured iiilclicct to the rest of the population was necessarily small, the fallacies of protection should be encouraged, when, in this country, men of Uuivcisity education held views so opposed to the fuudameu- 21 tal maxims of political economy. But in that Association, at any rate, such errors must be repudiated. It Avas not the policy of England to answer folly Avith foolishness, but rather to afford to young communities an example of sound legislation. IIo must also express his strong dissent from the paragraph in Mr. Briggs's paper in Avhich the transportation of convicts Avas alluded to. Mr. Briggs seemed to think that Eugland had a right to shoot her (iriminal rub- bish in any part of the empire that might be most convenient to herself, Avithout reference to the interests or wishes of the colonists. The idea Avas founded on the not uncommon fallacy that every man had a right to do what he would wi h his own. But there wa5> no such aLjolute right. The right had been limited, from the earliest period of civilized jurisprudence, by the condition that its exercise should not be injurious to others. The oAvner of a stream of water might use it for his own purposes, but he might not use it to the damage of another; and, just so, England had a right to use the great stream of colonization for her laAvful ends, but she had no right to poison it to her neighbour's Avrong. He spoke the more strongly because this was one of the feAV questions on Avhich the Association had publicly pronounced a definite opinion ; and he was convinced that the great majority of the members abided by the resolutions passed in 1862. We must consume our oaa'u crime ; and if we could not reform our convicts, Ave could at least keep them from doing further mis- chief. He had read with interest the suggestions made by Sir George Grey in the former discussion, that a council might be created to assist the Secretary for the Colonics after the same plan as the Council for India, He trusted that this idea Avould receive further consideration. It was impossible not to believe that despatches had been -vritten, and policies adopted, at the Colonial Office, Avhich Avould have been averted by the experience of such a body as a permanent council. Whether its composition were representative or bureaucratic it could not fail to exercise a beneficial influence. Mr. Hastings alluded to the proposal he had made some years since for the establishment of a section in the Association for India and the colonics. The proposal had been rejected by the Council ; but, subsequently, a standing Committee, embracing the same objects, had been appointed, and it had led to good results. Perhaps, at some future time, the plan of a separate section might be re-considered, though he should not again propose it himself. Mr. Parker Snow believed that the Homestead Law of America had been of immense use to that country in attracting people. Ho agreed with the opinion of the reader of the paper in thinking that emigration would benefit alike the people who left this country and those who remained in it. As to the convict question, it could be shown that the colonies in Australia would never have been in the prosperous condition in which they noAv are but for the introduction of convicts. Transportation had in fact been the ic andation on Avhich 1' 22 m ■!!■■ ■■ M«i ! thoir Puccess liftdbeon built. Tho convicts Imd done a Inrgo amount of useful work which uuiat bo done at tho foundation of a now colony, and for his part, ho believed that it would be desirable to revive tho system of transportation. JNIr. WiiEELEii thought that it had been assumed rather too hastily tluit the colonics did not give sudiciont aid to immigrants. All the Australian colonies had given aid prior to tho year 1866; but tho commercial panic of that year had aflected them as it had affected England, and aids to emigration hud momentarily been suspended. It was now, however, resumed, and Queensland not only gave land orders of tho value of thirty pounds to every adult emigrant, but allowed those who had been in tho colony for a certain time to bo entitled to select a certain amount of land as their own. Tho reason why emigration had hitherto turned to America instead of to Aus- tralia was to bo found in various causes. Nor was ho induced to think that there was any hope of turning the current of emigration from a westerly to a southerly direction. America was nearer to England than Australia. A man could reach there in ten days, wherej.s he required three or four months to get to Australia. Tho cost, of course, was proportionately greater. What they were endea- vouring to do in Australia was to give such aid as would compensate for the increased cost of the long voyage. A man might now reach Queensland at just about tho same expense as ho would have to incur if ho went to America. As to the best mode in which emigra- tion should bo paid for, he thought that would always best be left to tlie individual requirements of each colony. Before 1866 tho rimigra- tion had been carried on by means of loans. Mr. James Barlow agreed with Mr. Hastings in thinking that emigration reduced itself in a great measure to an economical ques- tion. If the intending emigrant thought he could do better in Ame- rica than in Australia, he would go to America. It was not desirable that we should attempt to guide him into any particular directiou. .Still, he would be glad to sec every measure taken which was likely to be of use in giving us an increased population in our cotton-producing colonies. Our cotton trade was now in a worse condition than even during tho period of the American War. We were in want of cotton, and until wo had enough, evei'y industry in tho country would feel the want of it. India ought, he believed, to send us larger supplies. In reference to free trade, while he agreed heartily with the prin- ciple, h(j could not but see that occasionally it told against us. The French treaty, for example, which manufacturers in Lancashire thought would have the effect of allowmg them to export a large amount of cotton goods into France, had had, in respect to certain of tho lighter fabrics, precisely the opposite effect, so that now many French cotton goods were being imported into this country. They are, in fact, sending twice as much fancy goods as we are sending them. The people who go to America from tho manufacturing dis- riiint limy, tho 28 tricts were, lio tliouj]!;h(-, taking away oiu' trade, uiul aio Ihoroforo, to a con»idcral»lu extent, injiiriii