IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 'V / O {./ .V Ms. Qr ^,% 1.0 I.I 1.25 15 '""== ill .'if iiM Is 1^ 1.4 Ill 2.0 1.6 (^ ^a T % •el rinted or illustrated impression. Les exemplaires originaux dont la couverture en papier est imprimde sont fiimds en commenpant par ie prerriier plat et en terminant soit par la dernidre page qui comporte une enipreinte d'impression ou d'illustration, soit par le second plat, selon le cas. Tous les autres exemplaires originaux sont filmis en commengant par la premidre page qui comporte une empreinte d'impression ou d'illustration et en terminant par la dernidre page qui comporte une telle empreinte. The last recorded frame on each microfiche shall contain the symbol — ^ (meaning "CON- TINUED "), or the symbol V (meaning 'END"), whichever applies. Un des symboles suivants apparaitra sur la dernidre image de cheque microfiche, selon le cas: le symbole —^' signifie "A SUIVRE", le symbole V signifie "FIN". 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On section 66, ;„ ^^'^' ^V^'^^'' ^^ ''"^'^ ""' (ippear to nie that tJiia s un a.lvantageou.s ad.lition I ,lo mt think there h any „se of inserting u-or, s Jhich can very eamly be eva.Ie.l, and the ,rae c 1 eff^^ of which will be to introduce a .systVn f evaJion tn"; lldtallvr"''^ law, althonil, a bank f^ not tntitle I to advance on the .security of iCs stock if it- doe«advanceupo„othersecuritv,it,,bSi^ T'T^^'7~^ry ^'^t«' ''^'^^ tl>e g t to V iU ; t P"^P"«". ""«• is to say that that r Udit ^1 all not accrue until the .lebt has become due r.iciuy tluit the borrower sha .settle it The .•I.uisp so"tl a't^UlT'"" '^*'''^" «^^y "•"» simple pro e": On section 7o, Mr. BL.AKE. some exposition. Mr. BLAKE. ion. Minister of I tiiink ■that clause demands On section 74, >rr. BLAKE. That was one of the ouestionH here was also a question raised as to -he he t ;=s:?^:S-j^£tlt^r--- I would like to know f.oin the Com «,/■■ w,„,fc;,';:t;;;^£';;™^ •> '"■•''»' ^ tatiou clause, I fin.l that : '"reif ,. by, timber aeai^Ll^'': ,„""' ? ","'"^' «'",i«'-?t..«(l th, re- other articlc/ofcommerci." "^'•"-•"'I'"™' I'roilace a.icf We have thus tiie wholesale manufacturer ,„■ .ro.lucer of agricultural products?"" well other things; and, therefore, the section seem ui^e :'ti:tm •<'"; r"''i".>^'^'""'« "™-"''y unless tlie tei m wholesale ' s to excent tliP wi ,"l n t Lv K *= «»n"'n.mty and the country, or ^<.Kt l"r,;'r''"''^'\'^.' '^"'' '* accompn-shes .upp,ftti;^^hi-i^i-Sr:i^j^-/ •- ^■^■■^^■' He is the pei'ooii ^vliose ml If uiul it ig founded ii))oii an expronsioi) u.si^d in the case of Cushing r.i. Diipuy, which is there eitoil. and giKxl.s leiicii the iiltiniiitci lonsniiuT, not diieetly ))ut tliiough an intei iiic(li;irv distiilnitor. Tlmt 1 under- stand to he the wi,..le«ale ,.,.nufaeturer. To the l to whiel, «e had refe.e^K'e tho'oti;^r ;;;«d.i:; I ^^^'l.': H l'.'"'''"-'^''- 'l"^ «'^">'' '"'teipretation will j thini< tiiat some force is certainly due to the c-onsi- applv. He .s the n,an who j.io.luee.s articles which ' .leration which the Minister of Justice has add^s- he does not. as a rule, i;roceed hini^ielf !o retail I se.l to us, uaniely that for loes not. as a i' directly to the ultiniaUi i-ousunu-rs, hut which, in whole or part, he disposes of in hulk to some inter- mediary, who is the vehicle of transmission to the tdtimate consuniei'. Every farmer, or almost every farmer in the country, is a wholesale producer under that definition, ffis cattle and grain may go to Kngland, or the States, oi- to the towns of ( 'anada ; his products nuiy go through half a do/en hands in bulk before they reach the man who eats them. 'I'lierefore it is, I a.sk what Mas intended hy this clau.se ■; What is the line of deniarcatiim ? If in the term "wholesale producer" you inchnle the I)roduci.rof agricultural products, what farmer does the clause include, and what farmer iloes it ex- clude ■.' It may exclude the small U)arket gardener, who, having "three acres and a cow," proceeds daily through the streets of the city near where he lives, and jx-ildles hi so, him.stdf prodnciu; duce the ultimate ciistoiuer ; hut, e\eu as to him, if he goes into a market town and sells tho.se very articles to a huckster, or another vciiclot, who i.s the interuiediaiy lietweeu the producer and the con- sumer, I do not know on what ])i inciple you can call even a small uiarket gardener other than a wholesale j)roducer. So it seems to mi- that prac- tically, although with, p<*lia|)S, great pi'otit to the legal fraternity as to determim'iig the exact line of deuiarcatiou. and w itli the jirospect of many inter- esting lawsuits before the iiuestion shall be deter- mined detinitely and sub.^tantially, the whole farm- ing coimnunity are to be the recipients of those countless blessings whii h the hon. member frtr Fiontenac (Mr. Kirkpalrick) would ask this Hou.se to shower on their heads. .\t (iresent we .should first knoxy what it is ))roposed t(j us to do, and then we can discus the (juestion on its merits. . - - a great many years. ever since (.'onfedeiation, more or less, we luue a.s.sumcrl this jjower, ami the assiimi)tion has been accepted to a \ery large extent in the practical execution of the business of the itountry, liy the banks and by the |)iiblic at large. Ulit when we are calleil iiiion to deal with enlargements of the proposition, when we arc called upon to go a great deal further, as it is now claimed we haxe been, jicrhaps, ujicousciou.sly called iijjoii to go, and as we are in fact clearly, by the propositifui now before you, called u])on eonsoiously to go, it is perhaps well to direct attention to the ahirm- ing con.se(|uences to which, stretched to the extent to which they are iirojx.sed to be stretched, that proposition extends ; because, you will see that if It is to apply to the ca.se of the fanner, it may be ■ • : ;...-... "..v;i^ ..c I very proper, and e(iuallv within our power to ;ooidposition as to |)ublic con- , -lience, in which the masses of the cimmunity are Jiterested, with re- sjieet to the degree of credii which is attached to the visible possession of la-rsonal proi)ertics and to the-.sccuif '^'"'ditional ownershi|) iu pro|)- irey (Mr. Sproule) think so desirable, namely, I iiat the farmer should be in a iio.sition iu which he ' m, by a security note of this description, unregis- I'red, grant to a bank security for advances ujion iticles which he proiluces. Mr. P.LAKl''. I would ask the hon. gentleman wiiether in view of the suggest ions 1 have made that t' e interpretation claust; exprcs.-ily includes agricul- tural jjroducts, aiid that you thus find the phrase to lie " wholesale producer of agricultural ])ro- ducts "--whether he does not think that almost all lier.sons who come under the denoininatiiui of far- mers are embraced within this provision at this UKunent ? Ml', r.LAKE. I think the decision which is Vf- ferred to is based, as fai' as that subjeia is expi-essly erty not in the visible jiossession of the' claimant. The first dithciilty is the constant mutation of the object, the log being tran.sferred into lumbei-, the fleece being turned into cloth ; and so foilh ; and lumber, cloth and so f- be .V. .V,., ..,..,„„.,,.:,., .in ,,u „•■, 1 Hill. ^ini|ti:i. iM-.\piessiy j mortgaged for more than it is «orth ; and that dealt with, upon the article of jurisdiction to which j you, tiierefore, are not entitled to give him the hon. genilemai;. has alluded, namely, b.nking; I credit on his vi.sihle pos.session of it; you may Ill that way gut ri,l of, or niinimise at iill events the li.eouvemeiKo whicli is geiieiallv felt tliionirli- out tl.ose poi-ti.MiH of the woiM" whieh a.lm.t our priiKii)le of juiispiu.leneo to ari«e fioni the r'l'fWAmi T t tot. <^.t' * 1... :„ ■ 1 !• involve.! n,theiMnei.; " •;';'-{' ^I'' '-^ ~y \ ;;".^rXLi"iak]?";hr'";;™'tef ^T;' •"" '"'^ ^"" ^'""'^'""^ "•'"" -'-'> ^^-l. ami easy --.. rea^y owns .LlrU^l .:f 'Ih: Si" ii: - 'l^^i^:^.- '' w^' hi' ^^^iit^^^ h^s harn or any of the cattle in his stahlc" Thev ca-not go anywhere to Hnd out tliis informa tiou ; they cannot go to any place ^^ here tliere is a register of the chattel mortgage, and they cannot ascertain anything about it; hut there niav he a note in some hank, which we will not 'call ■ ' shavint: ■ ■ ...^.., ... .^j;,,,,, ,,,, iin- oroduction ami nanutactureofgoo.js.arefoundtohesustaine.l l.y tins House and hy this c'ountry at tlie present 'lay. It ,s the law of suj.ply and demand and ot t.ee comiietition, which is th.. vital and etlectual law in tins regard. The moment the farmer ran show that he can give tl.esaine prospect .,f a return, •op, winch is .aidtohet ef,™--: w h ZV me rl^I^' '•^''1!'''"^''^^' ''f=' '•'"''''''• rce, which note reallv renresl ,! H ' ^'l ^ , t^^.'! !'"''• ^v,th the same advantage, present resource, which note really represents the goods rimt 1.S one aspect of tlie case. The other u.spect (,f the .•ase is that it is ))ropose.I to etfcct not int.roly a partial innovation, to a limited extent and tordetmed reasons, ujion the ordinary hiw as to persinml property, laa it is i,roi>,s..drn.tn,l^f'r ■■"'-.■".'"'« nirnament sit from n,.w I torevoluti.,.Le'that iaw! anX:y™!.!;;;;: lii'^ T's^nuZrJ'''^:^ '" "'''' '" ^'^^ *^ ^" '""'• sarily to the c.msideration as to 'how far it was ' r. ■''H'"l I^^ ^ es ; it has 1 really mten,!..!, under the constitutional powe, to ' ^'«'''"'^">-- legislate on " hanking.- that you shoul.l thus inter- tere w,th the rigot .,f the Provinces to rcLodate tlie disposition of iiersonalty and indeed of real pro'. lllTr \' 11 u It'll 1 1 I I- . . t -th the same security that other eompetitoi's n : T'^ "^ avadahlo m.mey can gn.e, he wil get all the, money he wants ; and to the ex- tent to which he cannot show that lie will never get It : and ,f this Parliament sit from now to ) him. has been done in perty as well. I know no reason, none in the wo'rld wliy. it this pouer does exist, you might not apply t to ^he land I oo not know why you cannot .iay by another sub-section that bv a note of hand .,r bV a verbal promise made by a farmer to a bank a Miortgage may be made on his lan.l. The Wis'la- ive rights of the Provinces cover property am! civil ngMt.s. 1 he same words embrace both, and you niay as well, so far as the jurisdictional ijucstion ■s concerneo, provide for an oral charge upon lands by the tanner or the owner in favor of a bank or tor a iiarol .■lu.rge or a charge by an intrument not i "'" ''" ^ '"^^■«- nmler .seal and not registere.l. So tliis open.s a \ciT large question, an.! it is sutKcient to .say that Willie 1 w.ml., ac.juiesce in tlie view of the h.jii gentleman, reserving my peisonal opinion a.s to this •lue.sth.n - while 1 wouM ac.iuiesce in th. i Mr. HLAKK. How? j Mr. .SPROULE. There are farmer.s-' bank.s inks Ihe lion, gentleman says he knows about ,.'l k'Vv '",' 'i''''"t -vi'rything- -but he tohl '« lnm.self tha the farmers have be^n ...nsi.h.rin,' j e ,,uesti._,n ot farniers- banks for a Ion- time, and tiat they have not been able to tin.! the way of orkmg th.mi ; nor has tlie hon. gentleman .lone >.o. i a.lvisc him to go to Oermaiiy and find .nit Mr. .sPHotirj^. The hon. gentleman may as much tune at his .lisposal t„ go tliere an. have Hml next have Mr LLAKE. I will try ami lin.l .ml the ime r an, there. In the meantime, as we nav, t tlie information from (;ermany, aii.l as tlie cm diti,m.)f(,ermanfann..r.s,andthec.mdition..f (ier- nian operatives, an.! the comlifion of (ierman -, . , . , — - ■■• ac.iuiesce in tii.' view tiiaf he might ii.>t unfairly call on this Parliament ' ■;.">c'ietv''nnTH'"' "V"- ""\- '^'""'"f"' o re-enact substantially tlu..se r.r.>visi' mV vv 1. I, I 'n\^^' f'^,^''-;"»'''ti.m..t( ierman manufacturers, lHUob..enassu,ne.lt,,hethe lavv^ Zlu.! i Im i, T .••"»>''t.on .,t ( Ierman politic, at this rc'gar.l to vv hid, tli..re is some c..h ., sii p. t 1 • ' , '' .f ',"" "',' '""' ^''^'"■'^''''^ '" "''« ^-" i''- eventsof iii.Hrinl ...,o ;f ...,..'', 'J,. "'.^ '"' 5*' '""!' {'frliaps, better not attemjit f- lin.l liahi e entsof .,11. licial ,-u,th..rity, yet wlu'ii the .Minister ot .lusti.'eca Is upon us to make a change .so exten- sive as the change which now appears to he clearly f.on, (.ermany, for the „;-rposes of this .lebate at all events, am pr.icee.! t.. consi.I^.r what else \M. can do. I lie i.^sent proposal is n.it to e i; !1, i £ ^';%,"'""^y in, 'i'-nnany <.r U, a.L.pt the plan, of (.fiinaiiy ; hut it i.s to establish it l.v MTa„g,„g altM.mgii I ,|„ n..t think that woiil.i he t eutect ..f the h..u. gentienian's amen.hne.it^ - that the rarinof may l,e al.it- hy tiiiH d,.,ap an.l ea-sy ,.rocc.«8 to ple.lue hi« ,,rof:,Tty to tho Lank. 1 think that the Tion. Kentlemans ani...n.h,.ent, vhich .nn|,ly says that the fanner nmy ohtain numey „po„ the seciity of hi. pronerlv. i.s an amen,l,ne.it m Ineh .h.en not alter tl'e 'position of the farn.er one wlwt. He can i.ow ohtliin u.onev "i.on tlie .security of l.is property if he only fin.fs any one who will len.l it t<. him. Ther/ is no oi.jeotion at preneiit to hi.s giving; a ehattel n.ort- uigeor to hi.s giving seeurity, aeeording to the IS u hut the a.lvantage .,r -letrimeat to him may he iJ the j.rovi.sioii he i.uroduee.l which j.ermits him to give a security note U, a hank, instead of a chattel mortgage to a private len.Kn-, which .security note puts him, as an agricul ural pro.lucu-, in the same po.sition a« the producer of other produce, or the manufacturer of other goods. The po.sitfon of tlie farmer then will he juat this : By his t'iv- ii|K a .eeurity note, that is to say, without dn ulging to the rest of the world that he cue the hank for the advance. That is all that ■ can he jm.posed in this regur.l, and the tpies- t on wfc hav to eonsi.ler is, woul.l this be to the advantage of the great mass of the farmers, wiio, I am happy to l.elieve, ,Io not want to Ijorrow upon personal security , but who do want t . he able to retain and use that security in their ordinary tiansactions which is due to the realisation of the hict by those with wh.,m they .leal, that they are the owners of certain property, upon which general credit they are supplie.l with goods and given inoney. 1 he general f.asis of ere.lit which the f^irin- ing coinnnimty enjoy at present woul.l be destrove.l »y tins proposal, an.l any advantage which it may give them will be c.umterbalanced, far more tlian counterbahuee.l bv this loss. Mv own opinion is that the ma.ss of the farming cm'munity W..U d be seriously .lamnitie.l by this prouosal 1 believe there w.uil.l arise a .legrce of uncertainty with regar.l t(, tlie or.linary T.asis of credit iii reference to the whole farming eominunity r,f 'the country which woid.lbemost calamitous, and that instea.l of helping the fanner, we woul.l do him 1^ serious injury. I do m.t think it makes much dilierence to the banks at all, for it is not so much a iHinking .luestion : but as far as the interest of the tanner is concerne.l, I believe he is better off as he IS now, than he woul.l be if tiiis amen.hnent were introduce. 1 into the clause. Mr. BLAKE. T .li.l not .s,iy that the .security notes were s.) much worthless paper. Mr. KIRKPATRICK. The hon. gentleman sai.l It was an infringement of civil rights, an.l that ni order to become a security, there must be ;• registration or a visible change of the property. Mr. BLAKE. \Vhat*I pointed out was that it was ughly ciii.'stionable, in mv present judgment whether vye ha.l the power to so interfere with the i rovineial laws ,jn this subject ; but .liseussing the policy with respect t.> the farmer, [ a.ssnmed, both in his ca.se an.l in the ca.se of the mamifac^ turer, that the security note would be valid Decause, if void, it would make no difference. ' . '■;. KIHKPATRICK. First, it wa« highly ' I doubtful whether it vras w.,rth anything ; an.T „ the second place it was injuring the credit of the , farmer. If ,t injures the credit of the f-irmer it I uijun-s the cre.lit .,f the manufacturer, and, theVe- I tore, the elause is altcigether objectionable. The , clause, originally, was conHne.l U, warehousemen I who lia.1 the pn.perty of others .ommitte.l to their icare, an.l who eouhl properly give a warehouse i reeei,,t : but now it is proj.o.se.I to exten.l it to ! manufacturers of goo.ls. j -Mr. |{f.,AKK. It is already extended. I AGRICULTURAL I'R()I)U(n\S. I Mr. BLAKE. I ,(uite agree with the hon. gen- ! email that the amen.lment he suggests w.uil.l be ! the wajy to ,>ut the farmers in just the position in I which h.^ propo.ses t., j.lace them. Let me give a practical illnstratum of the difHeulties .,f th.^situ- atum an.l of the .lifferenee between the two classes to which he refers. The manufacturer who gives a security note is, of course, in constant relathms nerhaps to.) .ron.stant relations for the comf.,rt of both, with his banker ; and the banker, if he knows his business keeps a pretty cl.xse eye upon the customer whose security n..te he has, ami there ..I 1st l)e always a goo.l deal of trust an.l cnti.lence m the business, fi.e banker has conti.lence that the manufacturer, who is constantly disposing of his goo,ls will notwithstan.ling this, keep^ in stock, on the wlu.le, the security of manufacture.! stutt which IS represented by the secured note. Ihat i.s the position of the mamifactur.n-, and that 1.S the way in which the thing is worked. I hen the banker if he knows his business, knows whether the inanutacturer is keeping two banking accounts ; and if the manufacturer .dan.lestinelv keeps a secon.l acc.unt with aiiotlier bank he generally conies to grief, to the loss of one or b'otli' 1 here again you have the trust, the wnti.lence, the watchfulness and vigilance which it is p,j8sible to app y t.) that class (,f cases. But these condi- tions do not apply to the farmer. He resi.les a little way, let us say, out of Kingston, where there , are several banks, or a little way out of Tor..iito, where there are a great many banks. He may or ! may not have come into town, an.l at one of the : hfteen or twenty hanking oDices may or may not liave obtained a .liscount by gi^ ing his security note itp,.n us grain or cattle. U'ho is to tell whether he has .lone so or not ? How are you to know at any time whether he really owns the grain or cattle which he .>ffers as security, or whether, if he wants to sell, they are his to sell. A .legree ..f uncertainty neces.sarily exists in his case which does not exist in the" other ; an.l in order t,. enable the borrowing farmer, who has n..t credit enough in his own locality, to borrow without giving a chattel mortgage, every farmer 111 the cuntry is t.. have the assume.l title to his property place.l in doubt an.l the facilities for the sale ami .hsposal of his property consi.lerably iinpe.led. ' ■' Mr. KIRK PATRICK. Does a grain .lealer buying gram go to a -egistry office to see whether a chattel mortgage is registere.l against it ? Mr. RLAKF:. Ko, ixl'^^^^^'^^.^h ^r'^'i" '■^^^"'■^ ^^''^ '>""• gentleman (Mr. hproule) that I di.l pot make any observations on his reinuikH with any snocring intent. I ,nav H |[ou«. an.l / run HHK,„o tht- h..„. gonlln„«n I at HO far r,„„ rc-gar.iing hi,,, a. a common ,ne,n I'cr, 1 legui'.! luni a« a ni.)«t nneo.ninon ni«,nl.er. uom! m'*^'^*^!*"; ^*"'l'ir'' ^''''^- ""'I«';!fiU3u(i!), it i ; nr''"'*-' f"'"''""k. "" the «a,nt. on- a.t on ;m,l „„,lcr l,e name circ.„n,stau,..H un.lor .?« n nT-^' "r ''"'' "''^■'•'^«' in real estate to take imat l,ut . appiehen.! whal the hon. L'.ntlen.an ^^;>nt.,« that tl.e l.ank.s should 1..- pern.itU o e.' u on tl,e .ecuMtyof ti,nl.e,.li„.it.s'.li,.,alv an.i" once. Ihat wouhl l,e niactically adopting, perlianH m the ,nr„t o .jeetional.le fonn. the pr'incip J o , ! -anks. ()nr ,u,d<.s a,e not I.a.se.l on the ,. ineipl an. hanks. That i,s not the principle of on,' p.'es,., .ank.ng system. It in not tol'end upon real «. c . it? "• >.pon fn ure un.eali.ed valnen. S'on d,. not allow a hank to len.l npon the security of the most highly |n■<-n ordma.y l.usincss. Vou may do I he same thing m re e>-enoe to timi.er li.nits. if you ' ^^^I^IT^'^'^'T'^'^ "^ lending di,.cctly, on^.h I secunty of a m.her limit, why noiaUow the hanks i to lend d.,-ectly on the fee simple of a wa.'ehou.sx^ i on the rea propeity of any pers.m. ami you at ' once c.^tabl,,sh the principle of a land hank^, con | ti>a,y to that on which ,mr hanking system is hased. Mr. WALDIE. The fact he.etofore is tliat the security was given- on the logs, and unless the u-ense U> cut timber was cleari^ transf JnS U^ he .,ga, the property did not go together, and it as been held necessary fo:- th.^.aiiLs to 1„1<1 the cense or the right to cut timber .so as to conti, e their righ in the lumber. It has been the co, ^ mon practice of the banks to make advances o SttSl^''^--'''' '--'•"-'--' the Mr. 15LAKE. My hon. friend misun,lerstood \ nd i* •''"Pi'"-^'-^^, ^ :V" ""J"^'* '"« ^° '•'''*■ 1 '""l"'- wi h 1 P^"''^*^'''^>: leg'tiniate, that , a bank lich makes an advance to a manufacturer for the purpose of enabling him to cut his timber, should take as an lulditioual securi y i even ,.ow, the security of real estate. The hon. n.ember tor Fn.ntenac however wants Homething ,no,-e. but what definitely I d„„ot , know ; Imt I assume it is this, tliat iustea.l of i making the transaction a legitimate banking t an , saction, winch is a,, advuiu-e t., a person^'in he , .•ourse ,,f hiH busmess and on hi.s general credit for the doing of WHik and upon the prospect of a /.o„A M. n.en:ant.le operation, yo'u a ,- going , authm.se an advance upon the security "^' hi« I bat IS not the principle ot the present .Act. The ...ncple of the ..resent Act is that yon make i? , (.onthepe.sonaf .security, and, with nference to the mercantile ope.ati.m, having the right unde,' .cerUin circumstances t. take as an additio,;;^ to .sa> tliat this Hill seems to coiitemid ite the ; statutory recognition of that which s , I! „ law i though 1 fear not in practice, the loaning dinSC ; and primarily on chattels, instead of n.stricti-M. I the basis of loans as does the present law. This is a (|iicstionable extension. J "i» is Mr. KIRKI-ATRICK. J understami that timber 1 nuts re,,u,re a great deal of ca,.ital to wo k I'm he owner genendly goes to a bank to obtain t t£ecni v?f r r"''t>'"» "'« timber cut. but tne secuiity ol the Iicen.se. haf/'thi^blnlt^'- h" ^'"''y '"^^'^•- ^ "'" f'l'' tl"^t On section 76, awI;^ . , — oH.uiBKRLi N , 1 1 inter to the Queen's Most Excellent I^Iiijesty. 2 D