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Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mAthode. 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 \1 X -i »-vV«., . . / / House of Commons BebaUs FOURTH SESSION-SEVENTH PARLIAMENT SPEECH OF SIR JOHN THOMPSON, M.R OH SCHOOLS IN THE NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES OTTAWA THURSDAY, 26tii APIIIL, 1894 S.r JOHN THOMPSON. I feel that It Is Sue to the House, consideriDg the great iu- tc- ',38t manifested in this question by the f'scusslon wo have had here during several ^;s, that I should express myself l)riefly upon the points brought out. There is kdsonableness in the desire of hon gentle- jr.en to knoiw the views of the Governiaent, in >o far as they can with propriety be express- ^\ on a question of great importance like thlH, even as a mere motion to bring down tho papers. At the same time, I beg to say, in a preliminary way, that In my Judgment it is better that the question, at the present time, should be very sparingly discussed ; and, as far as I am concerned, I beg to in- timate to the House, at the outset, that I do not intend to enter upon any exhaustive discussion of it to-day, nor even to moke what I would consider, myself, a fuU de- fem-e of the position of the Government. T.1C reason for that is perfectly obvious. T > I great extent the quMtton, in lo far at 1 \&;it as it relates to the North-wwt, is one untit^r consideration ; and ttt this fllace what :uay be Incautiously said "Wttb regard to it ,.ii:iy affect seriously the ..ytiHt at the consid- 1 .lUon which the subjMt la receiving. As lueiibers of the House hare beodoe already Tiire, through the prMs aMA tlumigh the ' .nervations in this Wont^ MM Govern- •)it>nt have made a requift t» Ife* Xteutenant Governor of the Territories to convey to the Legislature of the Territories the great desire felt by His Excellency and his ad- visers—and, I am sure, very widely shared in this country— that the Legislature of the North-west Territories should reconsider the whole subject of education, with a view to giving redress to any grievances whicli exist there, and with a view like- wise to giving any safeguards which are ' needed In ordra- to make any por- tion of the people feel that their rights are well safeguarded and preserved. If, therefore, at the present time, members of the Government especially, should enter upon an elaborate discussion of the question, or upon a review of all that has transpired in this debate, we might find that the posi- tion of one side or the other had been serious- ly prejudiced by that course. For example, if we committed ourselves to opposition to the Ordinance of the Territories we might find that no serious grievances existed worthy of being made the basis of a complaint to the Legialatm'e ; on the other hand, if we warmly espoused the statement of gilerances that has already been made, we might raise a feeling of resentment among the people of the TerritOTies on the ground that we had, to a great extent, prejudged the cose before the complaints could have boen considered by the legislature. For these reasons, I trust ■' %^ M^ 1^ il.oO that the House will make allowance, in con- sidering the observations which I am about to make, for the want of an elaborate and full statement with regard to these various complaints, and that the public, in so f.^r as they may deem my observations worthy of consideration, will recognize t^o fact that we hold in reserve much that, under other circumstances, we would desire to say in view of the deep interest that is manifest- ed in the country upon this question. 1 shall endeavour to arrange what I shall say as not to cairy on a direct discussion of the merits of what ai-e alleged to be grievances in the North-west Territories on the subject of education, but wliat J shall Bay will be in the direction of laying be- fore the House the reasons which have in- fluenced the Government in coming to the conclusion not to disallow the Ordinance of the Territories of 1892. However, be- fore discussing the matter of the Territories 'and the Ordinance of 1892, I desire to say a few words on the subject of the education- al question in Manitoba, because the hon. gentleman who moved the resolution which we are discussing introduced that subject In the early part of his remarks, and strong- ly challenged the position of the Gfovem- ment and my own position in relation tx> it. I need speak but briefly upon this subject, because the whole question was elaborately discussed last year at a time when we sustained the combined assault of the hon. member for L'Islet (Mr. Tarte) and the hon. member for North Simcoe (Mr. McCarthy), based upon absolutely opposite and irreconcilable views as to what ought to be done. Any one who cares to tiu-n up the record of that discussion will find the answer I have to make in regard to the remarks of the hon. gentlemen about my position and the position of the Govern- ment now. Our position was assailed on the ground, so far as the hon. member for L'Islot was concerned, that we ought to have dis- allowed the Manitoba legislation which was complained of, and on the ground, so far as the hon. member for North Simcoe was concerned, that we ought to have rofuselatlon bad to be taken into consideration. The litij^tion had ret^ulted In a decision by the highest court of appeal ad- Terse to the petitioners, so that the time came when we were bound to take those petitions Into consideration. Having taken them Into consideration, we found Important legal questions Involved which we thought It necessary to refer to the courts- under the statute providing for the refer- ence of such questions. The proceedings on that reference are still In progress. The re- sults, so far as the SupreuK; Court of Canada Is concerned, are that the majority of the court has negatived the right of the petition- era to make an appeal under the circum- stances, and has negatived the power of the Governor General In Council to entertain the appeal for remedial legislation at all. What can be meant by the assertion which has been made upon that subject that, not- withstanding that decision. If it should stand unreversed, or if it should be confirmed on appeal, the responsibility of the Government will still remain as to remedial legislation, I have never been able to understand. If the courts should decide eventually that there is no Jurisdiction on the part of the Govern- ment to entertain the appeal for redress— tl'at the petitioners have no case for such appeal, and that this Parliament would, therefore, not have power to pass a reraedi.il statute giving redress to the pftltlonere, It Is impossible for me to under- stand how there can be any further responsi- bility upon the Grovernment in the matter. I only say that by the way, because the Infor- mation I have is that a considerable body of the petitioners, representing the religious mln- orlty In the province of Manitoba, have taken steps to appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council on that subject, and, there- fore, I forbear to discuss that feature of the question further. I come now to the ques- tion of the Territories, and let me call the attention of the House briefly to an analysis of what the complaints were, and what the requests were on behalf of the minority for redress under the Ordinance of 1892 In the Territories, Now, in order that the House may appreciate the various steps that were taken to investigate the complaints of the minority, let me premise that the Ordinance Itself was passed, I think, on the very last day of December, 1892, that It was late in the month of October, 1893, before the first complaint came to my knowledge, or to that of my cclleagaes, so far as I can tell, and that the first petition on the subject only reached Ottawa pretty late In the month of Novem- ber, 1893. So that when the subject came to be a matter for practical Investigation, the time at our disposal within which disallow- ance would be possible, was very brief, and was not made brief by any want of diligence on the part of the Government here. The complaints are of two kinds. First, there is a complaint that harm has actually been done by the Ordinance of 1892 and regulations made under it. So far those complaints, of course, relate to the past, but there Ls likewise a very strongly urged com- plaint that the safeguards for the future, which the spporters of Roman CathoUc separate schools had in the I'erritorles, are removotl by tiio provisions of the Ordinance Itself ; so that there is allegei) to be a ca.se of grievance as regards what has already been done, and apprehension as regards the future. Now, I desire to call the attention of the House co this principle, the correct- ness of which I am sure no member of the House, on rellection, will dispute, and that Is that what had been dono by way of regu- lation In the Territories, whether before or after 1892, was absolutely beyond the power of the Executive here to redress by way of disallowance. When we come to state whi.t the particular complaints made by the peti- tions were, the House will perceive that .several of them arose from educational re- gulations made In the Territories before the Ordinance of 1892 was ever written at all, and what I wish to Impress upon the House at this moment Is tliat as regards those regulations, the disallowance of the Ordi- nance of 1892 would have had, as a matter of course, no effect whatever, and that the grievances, if there be grievances, would have remained precisely the same after dis- allowance had taken effect, except, of course, as to the power of the Board of Educatiop to alter matters, but that I will disooss by Itself. But I wish to go a step further, and to say that as regards the regulations made under the Ordinance of 1892 itself, if those regulations were found to Infiict a grievance upon the petitioners, that grievance would not be removed, those regulations would not be nullified, by the disallowance of the Ordinance. It Is well establls^hed, It Is clearly written in the Brit- ish North America Act, as regards disallow- ance In the provinces, and the same prin- ciple would undoubtedly prevail as regards the Territories, that disallowance takes effect from the moment of its being pro- claimed, gazetted or announced to the Legis- lature ; and, therefore, It follows that what has been done under the disallowed Act In the meantime remains in full force and vigour. If the statute dis- allowed, or the Ordinance disallowed, has been void as being ultra vires, of course everything Is null and void from the begin- ning ; but If tne statute or Ordinance had effect, that which has been done under it, while its life and vigour remains, until the moment of disallowance, remained still in full force prd In effect, and Is beyond the reach of the JJxecutive here. Now, the first series of complaints relate to grievances which are said to exist by reason of certain regulations in the Territories. I do not pro- pose to deny that those exist. We have here hon. gentiemen reprepentlng the Terrttories ; they have as gdod a constitutional right as any man In this House to say whoOier com* 1S5797 i \ao 14 1 i < t t I t t; p a c t t b t r< tl d a tx gai dii*. stoo plaints are rife there, because tbey represent immediately the people of the Territories, they have their confidence now, and they are responsible to them for any misstatement which they may make wltli regard to the state of affairs In their constituencies ; we have statements made by these fjentlemen, that they have never heard a complaint until they came to listen to the debates In this House during the present session, or until they read of those grievances In the press pul)ll8he» effects of the regulation Itself. In the first place this re- gulation with respect to normal schools quali- fication does not apply to teachers at present authorized to teach, and even as regards tllio8(» who may ask hereafter authority by certificate to teach In the Territories, there are certain limitations to the rule. One of them Is a limitation to this effect, and It is alleged It has been inserted out of con- sideration for the position of those who are not able from their calling and engagements to attend the sessions of the normal schools, namely, that If they possess equi- valent qualifications, certificates that show that thp^ are not only persons of education, up to the standard established In the Terri- tories, but that they have likewise acquired the art of teaching, their certificates shall be accepted as e{iulvalent, and they shall not only be exempt from attendance at the normal schools, but they shall likewise be ex- empt even from examination, and shall receive certificates accordingly. There is a fur- ther exemption, on behalf of those who have obtained such certificates in the province of Ontario and the province of Manitoba, and I am told It is under the consideration of the Council of Public Instruction there now whether the same principle shall not be established as regards the province of Quebec. But let me call attention to the fact that while this complaint has been made the subject of strong animadversion against the Government for refusing to disallow the Ordinance of 1892, that rc'gulation was by no means made in, by, or under the Ordin- ance of 1892. In tiie year 1891, at a meeting held on 2nd September of that year, of the whole Board of Education of the Territories, comprising the Catholic Separate School Board and the Public School Board likewise, five Catholics and three Frotestanta, certain proceedings took place with regard to normal sclicpois which I will presently read. I quote meantime from the report made by the Executive Council of the Terri- tories upon that subject, and I will refer in a moment to some proofs that the statemeat is well foimded : With regard to tlie training of teaoliers I might say that our regulations do not eoni])el any teacher who possesaes equivalent qnalifications.to att«nd our normal sessions. Teachers are required to possess scholarship and professional skill. If any member of a religious order presents evidence of these she can obtain her certificate without attend- ing our normal schools, but if she does not present such evidence, under our regulations she is not entitled in her religious character to anything more than an^ other lady who wishes to teach in a Government school and obtain a Government grant. Our duty is to see that none but properly qualified teachers are engaged in our schools and quest that ted. If the know best them, And lii>^ we are » effects of lace this re- hools quaU* I at present as regards Lithorlty by orles, there iiUe. One feet, and It out of con- (se who are DKagements the normal ossess equl- I that show f education, , n the Terrl- Ise acquired flcates shall I they shall lance at the cewise be ex- , and shall liere Is a fur- (se who have i province of ;anltoba, and oonsideratlon ruction there )le shall not province of )n to the fact 1 been made irsion against disallow the Ltlon was by er the Ordln- 1891, at a of that year, atlon of the lollc Separate School Board e Protestanta, with regard vlll presently a the report of the Terrl- wlU refer in the statement aohers I might pel any teocher Lions.to att«nd re required to 1 skill. If any iits evidence of vithout attend- ees not present ons she is not jr to anything Ihes to teach in a Government 3 but properly ur schools and li thut none but properly conducted hcIiuoIh receive public money, and tliooe dutieH uuiinot be (lclu>'ut<.Ml to the representtu'ves of any religious ])0(Ty 'or Iwclies. As a mutter of fact, many inuinhers of religious orders are specially and Hpluiididly trained us teachers, and our regulations will admit tlioni withy the normal school regulation, hut, for the future, members of religions orders, of communities wishingto engage as teachers in schools drawing public money in the Territories, nmst conform to the regulations i>' which tliey have iiad full notice. Mr. LAURIER. Will the hon. gentleman state the document from .trhlch he Is quot- ing ? Sir JOHN THOSIPSON. It Is the reply of the Executive of the North-west Terri- tories to the petitions. It is dated 4th Janu- ary, 1894. When we look back we find that the normal system of training was establish- ed under tho t)rdlunnce of 1888. The regu- lations which made It compulsory, and which are referred to In the document I have just read, were passed In 1891, fifteen months before the Ordinance of 1802. It Is curious to look back at the history of normal school training, because there one will fiad It begins by a request on the part of the whole Board of Education to the Governor in Council to - ask this Parliament for a grant to establish a nctmal school, which shall sit at certain places, and then when the giant was obtained the syertem was established and adopted, ten- tatively, it is true, but established and adopt- ed unanimously by the Board of Education, by Its Protestant and Boman Catholic mem- bers, and that the chief resolution con- nected with It was adopted on the motion of one of the Boman Cathol^ members of the board, no doubt In recognition of the great advantages, especially in a country of that kind, of having teachers not only qualified as regards the possession of learning, but qualified as regards the art of Instruction Itself. Let me read the pro- ceedings of the Board of Education, and when I speak of the Board of Education I beg hon. members to observe that I speak of the united boards under the old system and not the present Council of Public In- struction, as It is styled, and as It is estab- lished under the Ordinance of 1892. Of a meeting of the Board of Education, In September, 1881 (page 21), these observa- tions occur in the report : The action taken last year by tlie board with reference to normal training, although tentative in its character, was attended with such results in Eastern Aasiniboia as to warrant more decided action. The board has, therefore, decided that, for the future, all persona who hold non-professional certi- ficates, ana desire to teach school in the inspec- toral districts of Eastern and Western Aasiniboia, must receive adequate normal training, either at MooBomin or Regina. The board earnestly desires t<» e.xlond similar iidviintagus to all otlier inspectorittcs under itH jurisdiction, but tlie schools in tliesc inspectorates are so few and so widely scattered, that the same course is out of the (|nestion. 'i"o meet the ditKcidty, tlie board wo\dini<)M of tiiis boar ud dollars for the next tinunciul year for norniul S' hool purposes. In the event of this suggestion receiving the ap- proval of your Honour and being adopted, the i)oard would further suggest that it be empowered to secure tlie services of a competent person to till the position of normal scliool iustructoi', and also to make provision for the holding of nornml sessions at Lethbridge, Calgary, Edmonton ami Prince Albert, and at such other places as may, from time to time, appear U> re(iuire them. In 1891 that resolution was unanimously passed by the board, and the system which had been In force, tentatively only before that, was then established. I am not by any means making this statement with a view of minimizing what has been said in reference to the Inconvenience as regards certain classes of candidates, attend- ing these schools. I am making the state- ment for the purpose of showing first of all, what the scope of the regulation complained of is, and secondly for the purpose of show- ing that the regulation is one which existed before the Ordinance of 1892 was passed. Let mo say by way of explanation and by way of caution, that the passage which I have Just read (necessitating, for example, that no per- son shall be qualified who does not attend the normal school) Is merely a rough state- ment of the matter In the report of the proceedings of the IxMird. When we come to look at the language of the regulation itself (also made before 1892), we find the exceptions which I have already men- tioned as regards the possession of equiva- lent qualifications being acceptable. Then there Is another complaint made to the effect: That there is imposed a uniform course of in- struction and a uniform selection of text books for all schools, Protestant and Catholic. I am reading from one of the principal peti- tions which was presented for disallowance, and the expression appears in many places else. Now, Mr. Speaker, under the Ordinance of 1888, the Board of Education, which had ^s I control i)f iKlticatlon jfeuemlly In the Terri- tories, divided itself Into two parts. That is to say, the division took place after cer- tain buHlnesa relatinj; to specitled umtterH which, under the Ordinance, came under tlie control of the Ixwrd as u whole, hud bei^n disposed of. The board divided Into these two branches, and thereafter one of the things Intrusted to each branch was the selection of the school books which should be prescribed, by the one section for the Catholic separate schools and by the other section for the public schools of the Terri- tories. What T wish to show the House is : That as rejjards tlie prescription of school books— which I ^Tant Is a matter vital to Hie operation of separate schools— this mat- ter of the school books to be prescribed was settled by the Roman Catholic division of the Board of Education before the law of 1892 was p.''8sed, and it has not been dis- turbed and has not been unsettled since, excepting la two or three particulars which I will ntentlon presently and which the House will see do not affect the point that I am now taking. The principal point which I make with regard to that is this : that It cannot bo said with accuracy— as one hon. member asserted last night, but surely under a mls- apprehonslnn of the facts— that the present Council of Public Instruction had thrust Pro- testant books upon the Catholic schools ; nor can It bi> truly said that the Council of Public Instruction has withdrawn (In any souse which would make It a griev- ance s(» as we see) any Catholic book tha • permitted then, for In the case whi. J . shall come to presently, the book was \*ithdrawn as a favour to the Roman Catholic minority ; or instead of call- ing it a favour, I would say, withdrawn as ,a step in the direction of meeting their -wishes and their vIbtvs. Since the objection- able Ordinance was passed, there has been no change with regard t» school books except the changes that I shall refer to now. There was a meeting of the Council of Public In- struction soon after the passage of the Ordi- nance in 1892. There was a careful consid- eration and discussion as to what should be done with regard to the school books. There Is a list of books prescribed. The House will readily understand that there are only two or three— four at the utmost— points upon which there Is likely to 'be disagree- ment between the separate schools and the public schools as regards the books that should be used. That would be, as I recall at the moment, as to books referring to his- tory, literature and science ; and with regard to all those matters the books that should be used were agreed upon. Subsequently to that meeting, and on the 30th of September, 1893, a circular was Issued by the Secretary of the Council of Public Instruction, and In thwt circular is to be found the only change which was, up to that time, made as regards sdbool books prescribed for the Roman Oatho- lio separate schools. I ask the attention of the House to it, for the House will perceive j that that circular has not thrust Protestant ! books upon the separate schools, nor has It I withdrawn any Roman Catholic book which \ was desired to be retained. There Is on I riM3ord a statement of the F^xecudve of the i Territories lo the effect that the changes : it has made were with the approval of the Roman Catholic advisory memlwrs of the board, and that they were made In the direc- tion of what was believed to be the interest j and desire of the Roman Catholic minority I of the Territories. The changes mentioned t In the cli-eular are these : Tlie ivguiatioiiM of tlie Council of Public In- Htnictioii niiiiliMl to nil sctioolH on or iilHxit Kith August liiNt, govern nil uMiininiitiontt held undei' tiie direction of tlie Council. Tlie following reiulerH are autliori/.ed for use in Hoiniui Catliolic hcIiooIh in HtiinilardR I and II, and lieconie conijiulsory after Ist tlanuary, 1894, viz. : — i Tlie Dominion HerieM(,Sa(Ilier'H Catholic Kcailers), ; |iartH 1. and II., and tlie •Second Header ; or the Ontario Reader-s, partH J., II., and the .Second I Reader. Then comes the passage which I bad in my I mind when I answered the hon. leader of I the Opposition the other evening, and which. I I Dhlnk, I acciuately stated In the Interrup- { tlon I made i'or the piui)ose of answering j him, although an hon. gentleman who spoke I last night seemed to be under the Impression i that I had misled the hon. leader of the Opposition. The passage I will read. Al- ' tliougb it does not Immediately relate to this part of the subject, I read it now so as not to refer to it again : In school districta, where Frcncli is the vernacular, j'thc Hchool trustees may, upon o))taining the con- ; tsent of an inspector in writing, use the Ontario 'scries of Bilingual Rearlers, parts I., II., and the I Second Rcailer, instead of the Dominion aeries or i tlie Ontario Readers. { In all standards almve the second the Ontario I Readers are prescribed after Ist January, 1894. The House will remember that wthat I am specially dlreotJng atitentlon to is what has I been done to constitute a case of complaint under the Ordinance of 1892. Now, I turn to the explanations given by the Executive au- I thoritles of the Territories, for the purpose of I showing the House that what has been done has not been done with any view of creating irritation, causing complaint, or limiting, In any way, the free action of the separate school teachers. Mr. Haultain, in his answer to the peltltions, says : The only cliange of text books for these schools since 1R88 was made at the last general meeting of the Council of Public Instruction held in •June, 189,^. At that meeting, and with the approval of the Rev. Father Caron, a Roman Catholic member of the council, a uniform leriea of text books for all schools was prescribed, with one exception. At the Rev. Father Caron's request, Roman Catholic schools were allowed to use as optional text books the Roman Catholic Readers m the primary classes. 8t Prot«>8taDt l8, nor has It 3 book which There is on cutlve of the thH ohiiDKCfl proval of the nbers of the i in the dlrec- s the interest lolio minority :c8 mentioned of Hiililio In- or »lM>ut Ktth DiiK liulil iinder ri/.«(l for use in JR I aixl II, Hllll y, 1K94, viz. : — tholio Headers), [Gentler ; or the nd the Second I I bad iu my ion. leader of ig, and which, the interrup- of answering an who spoke :be impression leader of the rin. read. Al- ely relate to I it now so as 1 tlie vernacular, [lining the con- ise the Ontario I. , II. , and the ninion series or the Ontario luary, 1894. wthat I am IS what has of complaint Jow, I turn to Executive au- be purpose of las been done of creating limiting, in the separate ,n bis answer these sclioola eral meeting of held in .June, he approval of tholic member text hooka for exception, iquest, Roman se as optional eaders in the I The only school text )MM)kH in our progriiinnio whicli could poHHiiily excite controversy, are tliu readers and lustorieH. In liistory, the text bonk, umler tiic new rcgula tions, is Buckley & KolMtrtson'H HiHtory of Kiiglany the Bfiard of Kducatioii, having lutcn consideretl unohjuctionalile by the l^oniiin Ciitliolic Hcction, and was in use Iniforc the lute rcgidutioiiH and the Ordinance of 1H0*2 came into fore i for all standards above standard '2 the Ontario ; readers ; {'i) to continue for stanilards 1 and "i the ] Dominion series of Readers, the text books already ■ in use under tlie regulations of the Roman Catholic i section of tlie Board of Kdticat'on, the Ontario | Readers l)eing only maile optional in these standards; | and (4) to allow the Ontario Bilingual Rcmlers to j be used in F'rench-speaking districts under the conditions set forth in the circular. I have said that no school book was struck off whlcb the Council supposed the Catho- lics desired to retain, and that none had been put on which was deemed by them objection- able. Let me read, in oonUrmation of that, a little fiu'tber : In alHilishing the .Metropolitan series of Readers, the examjile of the Roman Catholic Committee of the Council of Public Instructiim of the ]>rovince of (^uel)ef was fidlowed. At a sitting of that iKxly held on the'JOtli May, IK9'J, His Kminence Cardinal Tascliereau in the chair, among the Intoks struck from the list of iMHiks approved for use in the Roman Catholic schools in the |irovince of Quel>ee were the Mctro|K)liUin 1st, 2iid, .hd and 4th Readers. .My previous communicatinn has suflicicntly stat- ed the unobjectionable character of the Ontario readers. Therefore, let me turn back to his first letter for the purpose of seeing what be says about those readers. The statement he made, whloh I have not imder my hand at the moment, but I remember sufficiently as to detail. Is tbat the Ontario readers were selected bo- cause they are prescribed for the Roman Catholic separate schools In the province of Ontario ; and I think the House was made fully aware last night of the opinion enter- tained by at least some members of tbe House, that tbe most admirable system, and the system they would desire to have re- garded as a standard, Is tbe Ontario system of separate school education. If tbe Ontario system Is so admirable and satisfactory, I think It can hardly be said tbat the read- ers prescribed for the separate schools in Ontario are objectionable for the separate schools In the North-west. In looking for the passage to which I was Just referring, I have come upon the authority I referred to a moment ago, as regards the proceed- ings of the Board of Education -with refer- ence to normal training, and I find that on the 3rd of September, 1891, Mr. A. E. Forget, ono of the Roman Catholic members of the board, moved this resolution : That all persons in the inspectorates of Kasteni and Western Assiniboia who obtained non-profes- sional certificates, at the recent examination of teachers, not holding certificates of normal train- ing Those may be roughly described as interim certificates merely, not qualityln? a person to be regarded as a professional teacher. -and who desire to obtain professional certificates, lie reijuired to attend a normal session, either at Moosoudn or Regina, such normal session to com- mence on the reopening of the Union schools after the Christmas holidays, and to terminate, for third class teachers six weeks, and for first and second class teachers, three months from tlie date of com- mencement. On this occasion were present and approving tlic Rev. Father I^educ, the Hon. Mr. Justice Rouleau and Mr. A. K. Forget, all members of the Roman Catholic section of the board. i Now, there is another branch of tbe subject I which I have to touch upon briefly. Tbat T T is the prescribing of text books for teachers' (txamlnations, and I admit that that subject was dealt with to some extent under the Ordinance of 1892. The House will obserre, when I come to show what the proceedings sine the Ordinance of 1802 wer^, how unim- portant were the changes that were made as to these text books. I must mention how tfhese changes came to be made. In 1891, although the Roman Oathollc section of the Board of Education had the right to prescribe the books to be stiidied by the teachers, and which would be the basis of their examination, the members of that sec- tion did not so treat the subject, for the reason that it was the opinion of at least one, and pro- bably all the members of the Romi :^ Catho- lic section of the board, that it would be more satisfactory if there could be, as re- gards teachers, a uniform set of text books. And on the .Srd of July, 1891, the Rev. Father Leduo— although the matter was one entirely within the competency of his own section of the board, addressed the secretary of the whole board thus : At the next meeting of the lioiinl of Kihication I wish to have the following snhjccts Hubniitted to discussion, namely:— 1. Certificates to priests tind ministers. 2. Certificates for strictly elementary schools. 'A. Blank forms for school returns, and su on. •4. A very clear programme of all the subjects on which candidates are to puss their examination, to be framed, printed ami distributed to inspec- tors. 5. Only one good text l>ook on each subject for teachers candidates, to l>e adopted by the sec- tions of the board, and the same text Ixtoks only to be used by the Iward of examiners. At the meeting which followed that letter, that programme, which Father Leduc pro- posed, was adopted. The result was a uni- form set of text books for the use of teach- ers of all classes, and the text books which were adopted. In the debatable subjects of history, literature and science, were books supposed to be unobjectionable to the teach- ers of any of the classes, whether Pro- testant or Roman Catholic. Therefore, I think, I need say very little more on that branch of the subject. But let me refer— and I must apologize for the disorder of my remarks, the material being somewhat dif- fuse, and many references being required— let me refer again, for the purpose of proving what I have said as regards the scope of the regulations with regard to normal school training, to tiie regulations themselves. If the House win look at the regulations of 1891 and 1893 they will find this set forth : The ad- option, in the first place, ou the motion of Mr. Forget, of the regulation which I have stated, and then a careful selection of all books which can be agreed upon, and which have been agreed upon, as unobjectionable, for teachers' examinations. And then they will find the regulations which permit equivalent qualifications to be accepted by way of dis- pensing with the attendance at nbrmal schools in the case of those who do not desire, and who do not need to attend. So much for the ' objection that a uniform system of class books has been adopted for all classes of schools, and that objectionable books have j been Introduced Into the syllabus. Now I come to what Is said as to the effect of I disallowing the Ordinance of 1892. I have I endeavoured to divide the subject Into two branches. First, to show what the com- plaints are as to existing regulations, and I I think I have proved that, as regards each , one of these, the complaint 1« founded, not I on the Ordinance of 1892 or anything done ! under It, but on what was done by virtue of the Ordinance of 1888. I beg to say that, as regards tliu Ordinance of 1888, we have not, ' as far as I can remember, recotved a remon- : strance or complaint as to its provisions, or I anything done under It. On the contrary, we I have the statement contained In the petitioii I of His liordship Bishop Grandin of St. Bonl- j face, that th^e systeji established under the {Ordinance oj 1888 worked with perfect har- I raony. I shall, to be exact, quote the pass- age, becatise I may have Inadvertently over- stated it. The passage to which I refer is this: The system indicated aliove for the management of tlie schools operated with entire harmony, to the general satisfaction of all connected witn the active work of education in the Territories. I So that we had no reason to suppose that I anything objectionable existed in the Ordln- I ance of 1888, or that anything objectionable { had occurred In the regulations which were I made under it. But it is said that by the oper- I atlon of the Ordinance of 1892, whether any- i thing objectionable as regards Roman Catho- I lie separate schools had been done previous- I ly or not, the Roman Catholic minority ■ were rendered powerless to remedy any- j thing which they thought wrong In the I regulations which existed before. It Is i said that while disallowance could not have I uullifle iiast. Imt tliat the i)rineiital Kilovaueo was want of seenrity ns to wlmt might happen in tlie fnture. Now, let nie stnte my contention on tlie snl).|eet, witli llie ' greatest possible respect for tlii»ted as regards the reviewing of jirovineinl legislation- adopted witli assent of botli pjirlies, lieoause , followed by both parties— is this, there sliail be no disallowance, even wliere there ap- pears to be reason for dis.illowanct*. of lui Act ' intra vires,' as we considered this to lie, until the Legislature has had an ojijiortunity to repeal or modify the legislation which is ob- jectetl to. In practice, excein in cases calling for expedition, we have always adoptwl the ooiu'se of Informing tlie Legislature of the cause of complaint and requesting reiK»al or modlflcation. I am happy to say that, general- ly speaking, these representations have been acted on ; and, wlaeu it was found tliut llie principal cause of eomplaint against llie Ordinance of 1892 was as regaiils safeguaixlg for the future of the separate scliools. and not a contention that they liad been alxdisiied, our duty obviously was to treat tlie Legisla- ture of the Territories as we would treat the Legislature of a province and to call its attention to the complaints which liad been made and ask the n to review the whole sub- ject and give retlress, if rer, in a compari- son of the correspondence wliich is in the hands of most hon. members in advance of this return being brought down— because I admit that we iiave been carrying on this debate to a great extent on the basis of documents that are being asked for, but most of which hon. members have in their hands— one cannot help seeing that in al- most every step of the inquiry we are met by a controversy as to what the facts are. On one side It Is alleged : You have practically JT 2 abolNhed the seimrate sehoois ; on tlie other, the separate selinols are in ilie came vigour as ever, and are just as ellieient and ninir lliese circumstances. liCt nie call at- tention especially to the differences which exist. ;!S ti> disallowance, betw(v>n an ordin- ,'ince of the North-west Territories and the statute of a proviuqe. If a year is allowed to elapse without the disallowance of the stature of a province, that .st.-ituK! being with- in tlie provincial powers— and that is prac- tically admitted here, except for the state- ment of Mr. .lustlce Ronl(>!Ui which 1 shall not discuss— that statute becomes law and is beyond the reach of any power but ; the legislaUire which en-ieted It. I'ut, as regards an Ordinance of the North west Ter- ritories, It must be remembered that this Parliament ha-s control of the Territories In a fuller and more absolute sense that It has control of the provinces. Wo have a limita- tion upon our power with regard to the provinces ; we can only exercise our juris- diction within a limited sphere. But from j day to day everything that happens within 10 tlio Territorios Is witbiu the Jiu'lsdlction of this Parliauu'iit, uo inatter what ' e IjOgishituri' of the Territories may do with rojiard to it. So instead of l)ein}; limited to the immediate exercise of tlie power of disallowance, as in the case of provincial statutes, we have the power from day to day, and from year to year, to correct any substantial prievauces found to exist tliere, if the hesislature should turn— thougli I am sure it would not— a .leaf ear to those complaints. Therefore, in view of the liniiltd lime tor investigation, in view of the plenary power.? whieii this rariiameni lias witlt rejiard to tlu» Terri- tories, I felt 'itere was no just and propiT call for the e.vercise of the strong power of disallowance with regard to this Ordinance. Now, in discussing another question, name- ly, the qtiestion as to religious Instruction in the Catholic schools, it seems to mo that, barring the apprehension which exists in tlie minds of the petitioners as to what may be done In the future, the Ordinance ist applied to llie teacliers, there are n> moans, of ascertaining whetVer a teacher Is qualified to teach religion, and that the morning prayer with which the schools were formerly opened, lias been abolished, and the time at the close of the day in which religious iiistrtictioii may be given to tlie children. Is likewise curtailed. Noav, as r(?- gards tlic «iuallfication of the teacher to give religious Instruction, there remains what I veiitui-e to think is the most vital iiriueiple AVitJi H'ganl to sepamte seJux>ls, the jiivotal point on which the whole .system of separate schools turns in any country, and that is, the domestic control by the trustees of the section, or of the district, as they are termed there, 'i'lie st-parate sdiool supporters are controlling their separate schools, assessing themselves for their schools, receiving public aid for their schixils, electing trustees who sliall govern them, and no teacher can cross school-house door, unless with the trustees of thi tlierefore, teacliers In schools are not or are not will- the threshold of a under engagement district ; and if, Roman CatJiollc separate quallfuHl to teath religion. ing to do it, it is the fault of the people themselves, with whom ample powers of local government are still left by the pro- visions of this Ordinance. T might extend my remaiivs upon that subject to the ques- tion of the French language. There Is much In this Ordinance and the regulations which have been made under it, to excite* thi^ sus- ceptibility of tliose who are strongly at- taclu-il to that Imguage; but 1 submit to the calm Judgment of this House that there was not sullicler!; to warrant tliis (Gov- ernment in disallowing it, so far as our luiormatlon at present goes. We have the provl.>ion, I admit, that the Instinic- tltm wiiieh shall be given 4n all classes of schools tluiv, public and sejiarate, shall be given in the English tongue, and I am sure that anybtxly who realizes at all the advantages of education, Avould be de- llghtisl If, in every school lu this country, French could be taught also. It would be an acquisition and an accomplishment, but if any dutv at all rests upon the state in regard to French-speaking children and with regard to Engllsh-spi'akiug chihlreu alike, in a country like this, surely it is that at least they shall riH'elv(> an Englisli education. 'Ihe views which have liwni exiu-essixl in the past by soiu:' of my hon. friends on tlie other side of tlie H(nb*e in the province of Quebec, are broad and liberal as they are true, viz., that lu a mixed population like ours, with the great body of the population of the Dominion of Canada speaking English, it is the plain Interest of the children of the Frencb-spealdng population that they shall learn English ; and if we English-speak- ing people can learn French too, we shall pral'^e God for It. But, >ir. Speaker, French is not abollslied in the schools. There is the provision which T rend from the regulation of 1S93 for the teaching by Blllngmil Headers of tilio.-ie In the primary classes wliere French is the vernacular lu order that they may be trained to learn tJie English tongtie and to acquire tJie ICnglish eilucatlon wlilch is pro- vidwl f(M' them. But it Is remarkibie that, while petitions came from almost every Uoniau Catholic school district in the Terri- tories, against the Ordinance of 1892, alleg- ing many tilings against it liy way of mlstiike —as to regulations which existed l)ef(»re the Ordinance of 1S92 was passed— alleging all that could be urged against the Ordinance, the complaint that tlie teaching of the French language was interfered with unduly, is not to lie found in any one of the petitions on the file — with one exception, in a letter of Ills Gra:'e the Archbishop of St. Boniface, ti-ansmlttlng petitions, His Grace mentiojll fcliat subject as one that would be well de- serving the attention of the Council. But It seems not to liiive been thought of ui'til the last moment, and then it was only put m by way of suiiplement. 1 may mention, how- ever, before 1 leave thiHt branch of the sub- ject, what the provisions are, and wliat may bo stitwl lu tlieir favour or in their excuse, becjiuso It is but fair tliat we should consid(>r liofh sides. Whether I cso petitions, ^^iithollt, 1 think, a single ex- ception, are in the alternative ; they ask that this Ordinance shall be disallowed, or that the Legislature of the Territories shall bo commanded to ropeal or to amend it. Now, Sir, finding that under the circumstances which I have mentioned, as regards many of the complaints, they did not arise under the Ordinance of 1892 at all, and, there- fore, did not call for disallowance, we tuniwl our attention to tlie alternative, wliich, as 1 have just stateil. was a prayer tliat the Legislature of the Territo- ries be commanded to repeal or amend the Ordinance. It was not in om* power to com- mand tlie Legislature to repeal its Ordinance, not within our constitutional authority, and nothing would have made it more certain that representations In behalf of redress would bo spurned, than that we shcmld adopt the language of command wlilch we had no rigiit to use. 15ut we did praetiwiUy what the petitioners asked us to do, only we did it in terms tliat we thought would be more effect- ive, that is to say. we presented In the name of His Excellency the Governor General of this country, and his E.\ecutive, an earnest request that the Legislature of the Terri- tories should re-examine the whole subject, should inquire not only Into the complaints that grievances which existed, but into the complaints that grievances might ari-^e, and should make any amendment to the Ordi- nance wliicli was necx'ssary to remove t1«e gilovances flint exist and the alarm with regard to tli future. I tliink tliat in mak- ing that apiilication to the Territortes to give redress, we were complying, if not liter- ally, at least iu si)irit witli tiie second prayer of the petitieuers tli:\t the Legislature of tlie Territories sliould l)e ordered to give redress. We were doing it to tlie extent of our limi- ted authority, and Avliat right has any one. then, to nia]it> the aspersion against us that in doing that, in complying to the fulh'sl e'.*^ent of our jiower and autliorlty wltli tliat prayer, we were slni|)iy handing the minority over to theh* enemies, wlio had shown them- selves lioslile ar.'i aggressive already ? We were not doing so, Sir. l>ut we Avero ap- pealing to tlie Legislatur:? of the Tei-ritories, as we would ai)i>eal to the Ijogislaturo of a province ; and we were doing more, we were appealing to a body which was perfectly conscious that the exercise of Its legisla- tive fnnctituis with respect to this question was all the time under the watchful eye of a rarliaiiieiit whieli liad auiple jurisdiction to give redress, if such were denied by the I..egls- lature. A question was asked last night by one of the lion, memliers wlio debated this subject very earnestly, it was this : AVhy, wlien we had referred the questiim of the validity and so forth of the Manitoba Act to the Supreme Court of Canada, we had not followed the same course with respect to tills Ordinance '? Well, Sir, in the first place, I say that this was not requested, by the petitioners or on their behalf, and I doubt exceedingly that it would give them anything like the re and the case of Manitoba. This case rests certainly on a different prin- ciple, bec^xiso the question there with respect to the validity of the statute admitted of such very gi-eat doubts, nay, of such confidence as regards the opinion that the statute was ultra vires of the Legislature, that we found the whole bench of tlie Supreme Court judges deciding that the Act was invalid. When that decision had been reached by that body, alil'ough It was subsequently reverstnl by the appellate tribunal, it showed there was ample groimd for submitting the validity of the Act to that tribunal. Furthermore, the subject was of such doubt and uncer- tainty as regards the scope of the constl- tutii^n that the House of Commons voted tlie money for carrying on the litigation, , whlcli, perhaps, the House would have been [ unwilling to do under the eln'.umstances whieli surround tills particular Ordinance, as I the Cjis(? did not seeir. to be so strong, and I especially after the esult of the litigation j in the oflnr cabo which was sent for adjudi- cation. There were some questions raised In the course of the debate which piM-haps It will hardly be necessary I should say much I about, and which were hardly put forward i 12 t 1 '11? v. with seriousness, but which have attracted sonio atteutlou from tlie press. It was said : Here is a strange and suspicious circuin- Btanco : thero must have boon strong differ- encps of opinion on the part of the members of the Executive at Ottawa, because we find these petitions referred to a sub-committee of the Council, consisting of three gentlemen, whose names were mentioned, and it is quite certain they must have fought lilce cat and dog, because they made no report :ind the subject had to be dealt with by the whole CoHucil. All that suiiposltion is founded on a singular misconception of the courae of pro- cedure in the Privy Coimcil from day to day. Matters which come up concerning any parti- cular department of the Government ore re- fen'ed to the Minister at the head of that de- partment for his report, and in the great majority of cases, mutters are decided on the report of the head of the department. The petitions which were presented in this case hardly referred to a question of law, and therefore did not come particularly imder my care, nor did they fall particularly under the care of any other department, and so there being no particular Minister who liau charg*! of the subject, no Minister of Education, for e.vample, no Minister particularly in charge of the revision of the work of the Legislature, they were referred for con- venience to a sub-committee, and that sub-committee made. It is said, no report on them, because they could not agree. The sub-committee made lour ro[x)rts on them, all of which were approved by His Excellency. It may be a matter of form, it may be a matter of routine, and it may be unimportant as to what was contained in their reports. So it was with respect to the re- ference to the committee itself The com- mittee examined the potitions, coiisidered the questions raised in them and the requests embodied in each of tliem ; and the com- mittee recommended, as a Ministei* would have done, if they had l)een referred to him, as esich batch of petitions came in, that they be transmitted to the Lieutenant- Governor of the Territories with a request for the observations of the Executive upon them ; and when the observations of the Executive were received, tlie wliole subject was taken up by Council itself, and the re- ference to the committee was cancelled, because the subject was one so difficult as to require the Consideration of every member of the Council. The matter was no longer considered as a matter of routine, but as a subject that required the consideration of every member of Council. I perhaps ought not to have troubled the House by referring to that subject at all, because it Is so utterly unimportant, and because every one who is acquainted with the working and proceeding^ ' *i in Council knows that there can be no dls» agreement unknown to the public Inunedi- ately. When this Order in Council wa3 J^vV' passed everybody knows, who knows anything of procedure in a body like that, that the conclusions arrived at received the nnanimous sanction of every member of that body. I grant that in the consideration of almost every question which can arise from day to day In siu;h a body there are var- ious shades of difference between members gathered together to discuss questions whether political or commercial, but the coiu'se always followed as regards matters coming before the advisers of the Execu- tive authority of this country is simply this : that if tliese differences of opinion -re as to mere matters of detail, mere matters as to whetlier It Is advisable to do what shall be done in this or In that way, generally speaking the opinions can be harmonized, but if it Involves a question of principle and mem- bers of the Coimcil are Irreconcilably divided the public within a very few hours hear of the circumstmce through the retirement of the dissenting member or members. But with respect to this question it stands pre- cisely on the same footing as other questions, and as regards any one of the fifty Orders in Council which are in this batch of papers under my hand, that unanimity was arrived at before advice was submitted to His Ex- cellency for confirmation. I beg to say that while I have "etalned the House so !ong, I have spo sn under the re- straint of a strong desire to refrain from saying anytliing in the discussion which would affect the future settlement of the question, or which would minimize In any way the weight of the considerations which ought to be taken into accoimt by the au- thorities of the territories, who will have to deal with the subject presently. And, Sir, begging the House to consider the circumstanops which I have mentioned, un- der which this question of disallowance came before us, with regard to time, with regard to the plenary powers of this Parliament over everything that transpires In the territories, with regard to the obviously mistaken views of the petitioners as to regulations which ex- isted l)efore the Ordinance of 1892 was pass- ed, and as to the character of the regulations which were adopted after the Ordinjince had passed, and as to the absence of urgency, I think the House will be disposed to agree Ihat after all we came to the safe and wiser conclusion, although it has created, I admit, considerable irritation on the part of those who had formed expectations of a more speedy, decisive, and heroio remedy being given to the petitioners. ito.^