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But Your Committee would wish to call the attention of the House to two cir- cumstances which appear to distinguish this special OMe from those ot 987. A 2 ordinary 1. I'J i 4 SECOND REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ordinary occurrence. Independently of the extent of the change, the time at which it has taken plu je, with reference to their peculiar branch of trade, is for the Weavers most unfortunate ; — and most, if not all, the ordinary chan- nels of labour are in such a state of repletion, that it is difficult for them to transfer their industry elsewhere. Though the state of distress bordering upon actual famine, which these causes have produced in districts extensively concerned in the cotton trade, ia so notorious as hardly to require pressing upon the House, Your Committee have had it confirmed by the strongest and fullest evidence. These districts appear to embrace in England a large portion of the county of Lancaster, together with parts of Cheshire, of the West Riding of Yorkshire, and of Cumberland ; and in Scotland principally, so far as the evidence before Your Committee has gone, the counties of Renfrew and Lanark. In mitigation of this extensive distress, sums to a very large amount have been raised from Tanons funds, by legal provision, by spontaneous contribution, and recently by the King's letter, and have mainly tended to preserve those districts from the immediate horrors of famine, and fi om the possible evils of riot and disturbance. But Your Committee deem it thei!* duty not to conceal from the House, that, notwithstanding the temporary aid thus afforded, the long continued pressure of the lowest class upon the poor rates legally raised in England, and of the same class of persons on the funds raised in various ways in Scotland, has extended the distress to the ranks immediately above ; and that not only the local funds appear in many instances nearly exhausted, but the lower order of rate payers, far from being able to contribute to the relief of their pauper neighbours, are become themselves dependent upon casual or parochial assistance. Under these circumstances, the Manufacturers' Relief Committee, with the fullest daily information before them, concurring in the statement above made, agreeing with Your Committee in opinion, that there in little hope that any revival of trade can bring back the employment of the distressed Hand-loom Weavers, and that the fulness of other branches of labour renders it difficult for them to transfer their industry }— aware also, that tem- porary aid, however valuable in itself, and however judiciously applied, can only produce temporary benefit, have been led to turn their attention to the objects which Your Committee have in view. Satisfied of the efficiency and permanence of the benefit to be afforded by F-miorrBtion, they have sig- nified their readiness to contribute in furtherance of these objects the sum of £. 25,000, being a large proportion of their remaining funds, provided the farther sum of ^£.50,000 can be obtained from other sources. The assistance thus tendered appears to Your Committee doubly valuable ; first, as marking the strong sense entertained by a most respectable and well- informed body, that the mode suggested is at once the cheapest and moat effectual relief which can be affi)rded; and secondly, as furnishing the means of complying with that which Y^our Committee have uniformly laid down as a rul(^ of action, and have thought it expedient to make the substance of a special Report presented in the present year ;— " That private or local contribution in some shape ought to form the basis of any system of Emigrar tion to which it may be expedient for this Cotnmittee to recommend any assistance from the National Funds." Your Committee do not consider it . iiecess^ry, upon the occasion of this Special^ Report, to enter into details of expense, they deem it sufficient to state state made, I receivJ raisedJ Ameri| seven the CI if neel Emigr appeaf tinct own and tl directl of thi Your ItapF occup and c farme loom. peculi utterl; as agi liable manu many while eyes c hasb< Comr latter agric contc ahof will I and 1 rem< whei spre to t plac rem lab( by mei tril bei ITTEE [e, the time at :li of trade, n rdinary chan. It for them to > which these tton trade, in r Committee fiese districts f Lancaster, ■hire, and of before Your litigation of raised from I recently by icts from the disturbance. House, that, led pressure and of the 'otiand, has at not only t the lower lief of their }r parochial littee, with nent above little hope '■ distressed of labour that tem« plied, can ion to the efficiency have sig- I the sum provided valuable ; and weU< and moat be means down aa itance of or local Emigra- lend any n of this icieiit to, •tit* ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. i state broadly, that they are satisfied from the inquiries which .hey have nude, the particulars of which will, with the Evidence they have hitherto received, shortly belaid before the House} that the sum of j^. 7.9,000. if raised, will be sufficient to remove, provision and locate in the North American colonies, above 1,200 families, amounting to between six and seven thousand souls ; and Your Committee have received assurances from the Colonial Department, that preparation is already made for receiving, if need were, especially in Nova Scotia, a considerably larger number of Emigrants at a very short notice. Recurring to the persons whom it is proposed to make the immediate objects of this ofier of removal, it is necessary to acquaint tl67 Martis, 6* die Martii : William Bowman Felton,\ Jovia, 8" die Martii : Capt. Jamt>« I3cnt Weatherlry • p. 88 John O'Driscoll, C»q. - - - - p. 90 Sabbati, i o* die Martii : John Smith, E»(\, ----- p. 93 Martis, 1 3* die Martii : Dr. John Strachan - - - • - p. 94 Jovii, 1 5* die Martii : Walter Burrell, Esq. . . . . p, 100 Mr. Thomas Bradbury • - - p. 106 Sabbati, 1 7* die Martii : David I'olley Fraiiuii, Eiq. • p. 108, 133 Thoniaa Pringlr, Eh\. • - - p. 1 1 4 Frederick Cnrliile, E«q. - • • p. 119 Lieul.ThomaaCharlet White, p. lai, 168 Henry Ellit, Esq. - • • • • p. laj Mr. John Finlaiton . . • . p. 133 Marti*, ao* die Martii : Thoma* Lacoiie, Eiq> • - - p. 137 Mr. Jameit Taylor ..... p. 140 Mr. Jamc« Homewood - . - p. 144 Mr. Samuel Maine - - - - p. 146 Sabbati, 24' die Martii : Kriurn, addreMul to the Over. 1 tcersot'Townihip*, Pariith of I Wilmslow, County of Cliei.r ter, by J. M. Turner, KeclorJ Alexander Campbell, Eiq. . - Martis, ij' die Martii ; Statement delivered in by Sirl Henry Parnell, on the Po-> . pulation of Ireland - - -J A. C. Buchanan, Esa. delivcral in Specification or Rations I, of Provisions to be furnished I to Emigrants ---..) Mr. George Tliompson . . • Mr. Richard Webber Eaton - . p. 148 ibid. 166 p. 167 168 >7« Jovis, ay' die Martii : William Fielden, Esq. - • - p. 175 William Hulton, Esq. ... p. igg Sabbati, 3 1 * die Martii : Mr. William Ludlow Fitzhugh • p. 189 Mr. Thomas Adams - - - - p. 300 Martis, 3* die Aprilis : Lord Bishop of Chester - • - p. 301 William Henty Hyett, Eitq. . p. 310 Capt. Henry William Scott, R.N. p. 318 .tiit Viii^'t,. •MMMittM MMiTTEK ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 9 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. e A/artii ; E«j. - p. o«, 13J • • ■ p. 114 " • • ^hite, p. p. 119 ai, 168 a ■ * p. U3 ... P "SS c Afartii . • ■ • P- '37 - • . p. 140 ... p. 144 ... p. 146 : Afarlii, iriiili of Chei- " KectorJ p. 148 iq. • ibid. c Afartii: by Sir! le Po.> . p. i6S :\ 'J elivcntl ationt I, nithedl • P- "7 - - p. i6A •o" - - p. 171 Afartii ; - - P- "75 - - p. 183 Afartii : •'Ugh - p. 189 - - p. aoo iprilis : - - p. ioi i^- - p. 3IO t, R.N. p. 318 ^1 Mtirtis, %)* die Fehruarij, 1827. R. J. WILMOT HOKTON, ESQUIRE, IN THE CIIAIB. Joffph Foiter and James Little, called in ; and Examined. I. (To Joseph Foster.)— WUEllE do you live?— At Glusnow. a. You arc n member of the Glasgow Kuiigration Society ? — I nm presidcr.t of the Glasgow Emigration Society; Mr. Little and myself were delegated by them to attend this Conunittee. 3. That is not the only society for the purpose of emigration, at Glasgow: — No, there are more. 4. You are not authorized by any other society to make communications to this Committee? — No; on consulting with some of tlie presidents and members of bomc of the other societies, we had the approbation of a few, but we were not authorized by any but our own. 5. Since when is it that you have turned your attention to emigrating to the North American Provinces? — It is nearly two years bince a certain proportion, c out eleven or twelve families, turned their attention to that, nnd about one year ago we increased that number. In the month of May last we petitioned the Right honoinable the Secretary of State of the Colonial Department, for a grant of land in Canada, and the means Of occupying it ; wc got for answer, that no funds existed in that department; we then appomted delegates to call upon his (iracc the Duke of Hamilton and Urandon, being the most itithicntial nobleman in Lanarkshire, to ask his opinion, and obtain his interest if possible. 6. Are the Committee to understand that your motive in making those appli- cations with respect to emigration, arose from the impossibility of fmding employ- ment, or rather of receiving wages suflicient to support yourselves and your families? — Undoubtedly. 7. Since what period has that inconvenience attached to your-^Tlic period that the distress became general, and almost intolerable, was about, I think, February last. 8. Have you got any written statements with you, respecting the average rate of wages for the particular employment in which you and the other persons applying for emigration are concerned ? — We have not a written statement, but we have made a minute examination, and arc prepared to give an average statement on that subject. 9. You yourself are an operative weaver ? — Yes. 10. Arc the rest of your society in the same employment as yourself.' — They are not all, but a great proportion of them are. II. What employment do the others follow ? — A few shoemakers, and one or two labourers, but the great proportion are weavers. 12. You consider the distress of the weavers as totally distinct from that of the spinners? — Yes, we are quite certain it is. 13. Have you any spinners among your society? — I am not quite certain; I think there is one or two. 14> As you state that the distress is chiefly limited to the weavers, how comes it that there should be persons of those other trades in your society? — The distress bears, in my opinion, very heavily upon shoemakers likewise ; there are a great 337> B number t Jostiih Foittr uiid Jatnes LiHlt» •^ • «o l'"el)ruiirjr, l8i7. :Mi' y 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE O I Juteph Faster and James Little. »• 7 I I ao Februttry, number of them out of employment, and their wages are very low. With respect to the spinners, there are peculiar motives, and I cannot precisely say ; their wages I know are better; and there is a delicacy in men, who are neighbours one to another, objecting to a person entering into a society, who comes forward and wishes to enter. 15. Will you explain to the Committee the nature of your employment as a weaver?— The machines that wc employ are all at the expense of the operative, witli the exception of what is called the wheel, which is a trifling part of the materials necessary ; the hours of working are various, they are sometimes working eighteen and nineteen hours, and even all night is quite common one or two nights in the week ; and on the calculation that we have made of tlie wages, after deducting the necessary expenses, they will not amount to more than from four shillings and sixpence to seven shillings per week. iC. Is your work by the piece, or by the day? — Uniformly piece-work. 1 7. Will you describe to the Committee, with respect to yourself, what is your particular engagement, and in what manner it is executed, as between yourself and your master ? — Tlie general habit of the work is by the web ; if it be fine, it occupies a longer time, it may be a fortnigiit, three weeks, four weeks, or even six weeks, but tiiat is the nature of the bargain ; when the materials are wrought up, and the web is finished, the Iwgain is done. 1 a. At the period when tlie work commences, the wages are fixed ? —The wages are fixed at the pleasure of the master or employer for the next web again. If). Supposing the web takes five or six weeks to execute? — The wages continue the same. 30. No circumstance changes the engagement ? — Unless the materials are found deficient ; if tiiosc arc wrong, that is a circumstance that leads to a nnw bargain ; if, on referring to persons qualified to judge, it is found to be so, there is a new bargain ; but if the materials are found to be sufficient, no circumstance whatever can vary the bargain. 21. What is the particular sort of article that you manufacture? — There are great variety of articles ; it is all cotton. 22. Do you work in a large factory, or do you carry on your work in your own house ? — There are few instances of work carried on in Glasgow and its neighbour- hood in large factories, it is all carried on in our own house', or apartments cod- nectcd with them ; there are almost no large factories. 23. Therefore speaking of the operatives that you come here to represent, the nature of their engagement is, that they contract for webs of cotton to be manu- factured in their own houses by the piece ? — Yes, by the yard, which amounts to the same. 34. You have stated that your present rate of engagement gives you wages equal to between 4«. and js. per week, according to the time that you work ? — It is not according to the time we work, it is according to the quality of the work, as there is very fine and very coarse, and more wages may be made at cne than at another ; a man that works eighteen or nineteen hours, works at 4 «. at one kind of work, when he might probably earn 6 s, at another. 2^. That arises from the one being a better class of work than tlie other? — Yes. 26. When you originally became a weaver, were not the wages of labour suffi- cient to remunerate your— Yes. 27. At what period was that? — About the year 1800, and down to 1803 or 1805. 'i'8. Can you state what wages you received .it that time for the two sorts of work for which you now describe the average wages per week to be 7«. and 4*.? — I cannot go into particulars, but I am quite certain tliat the work that we do now for 4s. 6a. and 55. would have afforded by the same industry 20f. at that period and a number of years later than that. 29. To what causes do you attribute a fall in your wages? — Undoubtedly, com- petition in trade ; tlic merchants selling them lower, who can bring them lower to market, and then of course reducing the workmen ; this was the immediate cause. 30. Mas there been any machinery introduced since 1 800 in this particular branch of weaving? — A great proportion is now done by machinery. 31. With respect to your own individual work do you execute the work entrusted to you more by machinery now than you did in 1800? — We have better improved materials or implements of working, but I have not wrought in the machine factories; when I speak of weaving, I speak of hand-loom weaving. i 32. Is i .. anfeg^rttii 'n i iiii i iiu. K)MMITT£E low. With respect :ly say ; tljeir wages lours one to another, 'ard and wishes to our employment aa se of the operative, trifling part ot the '. sometimes worlcing in one or two nights ages, after deducting :n four shillings and piece-work, urself, what is your etwecn yourself and it be fine, it occupies or even six weeks, wrought up, and the 1 fixed ? — The wages web again. •The wages continue ! materials are found ) to a n;^ bargain ; e so, there is a new cumstance whatever acture? — There are ir work in your own w and its neighbour- or apartments con- jrc to represent, the lotton to be manu- which amounts to 'es you wages equal u work ? — It is not the work, as there le than at another ; one kind of work, n tlie other ? — Yes. ges of labour suffi- down to 1803 or or the two sorts of be 7*. and 4*.? — >rk that we do now lOf. at that period Jndoubtedly, com- ing them lower to immediate cause. s particular branch the work entrusted re better improved machine factories; 3a. Is ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 11 3a. Is it the fact that the work you now execute by hand is also executed by (lachinery on a larger scale r — Yes. 53. Is it the fact that that machinery upon a larger scale existed when you first »-ent into this trade ? — No. 34. The Committee suppose that in consequence of the distress you have expe- [rienccd, you and others connected with you have endeavoured to obtain employ- [ment in other branches of trade? — Yes. 35. Mave you found fbat there is no demand for your services in other branchej |of trade?— There is none. 36. You feel therefore in fact that there is hardly any resource left to you, under I those circumstances ? — We know of none. 37. Have the habits of any of those persons who belong to this society ever been I agricultural? — Some of them have been partially agricultural; particularly these I twelve months past they have been working at different employments, roads, and [such other works as they could get a subsistence by. 38. The distress among tlie persons whom you represent is extremely severe, is 4^t not? -Extremely severe. ?v 39 You state, in the petition of your society, that many of them have sold their ^Ikousehold furniture, in order to pay their rent ; does that apply generally to the per- lons who belong to the society? — ^It does to the society, and to others likewise; ^ut it does apply to those operatives I have before mentioned. 40. Have you friends from whom you are in the habit of receiving letters from iCanada? — I have a brother, who writes to me occasionally. 41. From what part of Canada?— The township of Grcnville. 4a. When did he go over there ? — Eight years in next May. 43. Under what circumstances did he go over? — He had a few pounds, and puid [bis own passage, and went there; he had a wife and two children. 44. Do you know enough of his history to be able to inform tlie Committee how 10 got settled upon the lands he now occupies ? — A number went about that time, ind some years after, depending upon the Government grant ; he considered that de would go upon his own property, but he wrote to mc that that was an en-or, nd that by some influence, which he did not detail, he obtained the grant that rovemment had given to otliers, and that had it not been for that, his little pro« srty would not have put him into comfortable circumstances. 45. Are you aware whether your brother obtained a free grant, or whether he had pay a fee upon it i — I am not ; but I am aware that he was favoured particularly by Government, or he could not have got into comfortable circumstances. 46. Do you know the number of acres he occupies, or any thing respecting the {details of hts situation at this moment r — It is a year past since I got a letter ; I {wrote to him, but I have not received an answer, and I cannot detail his condition. 47. Docs he speak of himself as being in a prosperous situation ? — He does, land he expressed his astonishment upon every occasion that I did not exert myself [in some way or other to come over there. 48. Your society consists of 140 persons? — Yes, one hundred and forty heads of I families. 49. Of those persons, how many are there in the prime of life, between the ages of 1 4 and 50, who are perfectly well in health and proper subjects for emigration ? — I think a hundred and twenty or thirty may be in that situation ; there arc some of them, I know, that are not ; but for the same reason that I mentioned before res- pecting the spinners, we admitted a few of those. 50. What trade was your brother in ? — He was a weaver. 51. Had he been employeu in agricultural labour before he went? — He was, I a little ; he was partially acquainted with it. 5a. Is not it a fact that a large portion of the hand weavers in Scotland, in I harvest and in hay time, work in the field ? — Yes, a great proportion of them do. 53. Has that long been their custom ? — It has. 54. Have you continued a weaver since the year 1800 up to this time ? — Yes. 55. During that time havo you found great vicissitudes in your trade ? — Yes. 56. Have you been in a good situation at many times during that period ? — Yes ; ^we have many times been in a comfortable situation. 57. Is it your opinion, that although you have many times been in an uncom- fortable situation, the number of hand-loom weavers during that period has much increased? — Yes, it has increased very much. 58. And at the same time the machine weaving has also increased ?— Yes, the 337- B 2 machine Jotiph Fatter and Jamti LiUk. so February, 1837. / 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ■it 'i. Joteph Fuittr and James Little- ao rebruary, 1827. machine weaving for about six or eight years back has rapidly increased ; it seemed to absorb every thing, except very fine fabrics. 59. As power-loom weaving has increased, has the distress of the hand weavers also increased in the same proportion ? — Undoubtedly it has. 60. Have you any hope that any possible improvement in the cotton trade would provide in future for tlie liand weavers who are now out of employment? — We are quite confident it will not. 61. Have the weavers a general persuasion that the hnnd weaving is a business which is nearly extinct altogetherr — They have; that is the general impression of all the well informed and intelligent weavers. (12. M'hat was the last year in which you, as a hand weaver, were in a good situation ?— It is eight or ten years paf*. U3. — In 1822, were not you in a tolerably good situation? — It was tolerable in 1S22. 64. How long did that continue? — I could not answer that exactly. 65. Was it not tolerably good up to 1824? — It was tolerable; but the wages even in 1S24 were fur below what would be considered sufficient to keep a family comfortable. ()0. Did you think of emigrating in 1825? — I did; I thought of emigrating on any occasion when it was in my power, from the time my brother went away. tjy. ^\'as there not a general association among the hand-loom weavers in Glasgow during the year 1824, for the purpose of emigrating ? — It was not general ; the only society lliat we know of was that that we are connected with ; at that time it became general, about the time that the Emigration Committee made their Report. 08. Are there many Irish, in Glasgow and Paisley and that neighbourhood, now employed as hand weavers? — There are a considerable number. (19. Has that supply of weavers from Ireland increased within the last eight years ? — I think it has. 70. Has it increased since the steam boats began to pass from Ireland to Glasgow ? — I do not think that the weaving department has increased much ; there have been a great number of labourers at our public works. 71. Do not great numbers of Irish come over for employment, from Belfast and that neighbourhood, to Glasgow ? — Yes, constantly. 1 72. You have stated that the wages of your labour are insufficient >o support you, and that you have turned ycnr attention to other branches of labour; and you have stated that you found Jione iu which there was a demand for your services ; do not you attribute that very materially to the number of Irish people that have come over and have been employed as labourers, which has lowered the wages of labour ? — We do. 73. You have stated that your distress first commenced about eight years ago ; do you know when the power-loom was first brought into operation ? — I cannot state exactly, but I know about that time it became general. 74. Are the Committee to understand that you attribute the insufficiency of your remuneration for your labour, to the introduction of machinery ? — Yes. 75. Do you consider, therefore, that the introduction of machinery is objec- tionable ? — We do not; the weavers in general, of Glasgow and its vicinity, do not consider that machinery can or ought to be stopped, or put down ; they know per- fectly well that machinery must go op, that it will go on, and that it is impossible to stop it ; they are aware that every implement of agriculture and manufacture is a portion of machinery, and indeed every thing that goes beyond the teeth and nails (if I may use the expression) is a machine. I am authonzed by the majority of our society, to say that 1 speak their minds as well as my own, in stating this. 70. Are you aware of the tax on printed cottons ?— I know there is a tax on printed cottons. 77. In hand weaving, you can weave variegated patterns, without printing? — Yes. 78. The power-loom, as yet, cannot do that? — It cannot do that ; but in some instances it does perform it tolerably well at present, and it is going on rapidly to perfection, even in that point. 79. Then the tax which is laid upon printed goods is saved upon those articles that are woven by the hand loom ? — It is. 80. If the tax on printed goods were repealed, the hand weavers could not come into competition at all with the power-loom? — No. With respect to the tax on cotton OMMITTEE 'eased ; it seemed the hand weavers ottoii trade would yment? — We are ving is a business ral impression of , were in a good -It was tolerable ictiy. ; but the wages to keep a family of emigrating on went away, cavers in Glasgow not general ; the 1 ; at that time it ide their Report, ighbourhood, now in the last eight from Ireland to ased much; there , from Belfast and snt »o support you, »ur; and you have r services ; do not ; that have come ; wages of labour ? it eight years ago ; •ation? — I cannot sufficiency of your -Yes. ichinery is objec- its vicinity, do not ; they know per- lat it is impossible nd manufacture is ind the teeth and !d by the majority , in stating this, there is a tax on thout printing? — that ; but in some >ing on rapidly to pon those articles rs could not come 3Ct to the tax on cotton ■I ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 13 cotton goods being repe' led, the consumer and the manufacturer would receive the benefit, and not we. 81. Was there not a machine at Paisley that could weave what is called tambour muslins? — Yes. 82. Is that in operation still ? — I believe it is ; but I am not certain as to that. 83. Do you consider that a reduction in tlie present price of corn would operate to give you relief,'under the present circumstances of the trade ? — That is a ques- tion that I am scarcely capable of answering; there is a variety of opinions upon tliat point ; the general impression upon the mind of the weavers is, that it would. 84. In what manner do you yourself suppose it would operate to give you relief, under the circumstances of your trade, there being no demand ^or your particular labour, so as to pay you a remunerating price ; would not the prooable consequence of a diminution in the price of corn be, to reduce your wages below what they v are, so as to meet that additional cheapness ? — The general opinion of the weavers is, that it would benefit the trade, by enabling the countries from which we received the corn, to take i)art of our manufactures ; but when we rccolject that machinery will be just increased in proportion as the demand for manufactures is increased, we are quite certain that hand weaving cannot, under the present circumstances, afford a living, even were that to be obtained. 85. Your opinion is, that a reduction in the price of corn 'vould be generally ad- vantageous to the labouring classes, but that in your particular case it would be of no use to you, because you would come into competition with those that would be equally benefitted by it ? — Yes. 86. Have the wages for weaving risen and fallen occasionally since you have been in the trade ? — They have, but they have generally fallen lower and lower, down to the present time ; when they got rather better again, they never rose to what they were before. 87. D>d a reduction in the price of wages take place upon the fall of the prir*^ of corn ?— I cannot say that it had directly that effect at that time. 88. What has been the cause of your reduction of wages ? — I have answered that ; ' in my opinion, it was tlie introduction of machinery, and the superabundance of manu- factures beyond what there is a demand for, and the competition of manufacturers ; and of course, when they wished to have a large profit in the market, they reduced the wages, and so brought them down to the present price. 89. Are the poor laws in operation in Glasgow ? — They are not 90. Is there no cess in Glasgow for the relief of the poor? — There is no legal claim, that I know of. (\\. Is there not a parochial cess in cases of great distress? — There is a church contribution, but they will not give it the name of a cess. 92. Do you know the barony parish in Glasgow ? — Yes. 93. Are you not aware that there was a demand made upon the poor fund of that parish by certain Irish people in the year 1824? — No, I do not recollect that. 94. You have stated, that your masters give you so much wages ; are you not aware that the wages are necessarily regulated by the numl)er of persons applying for work ? — Yes, we consider that they arc generally regulated by that. 95. Do you not individually feel that the wages that are given to you are neces- sarily dependant upon the number of labourers willing to work at low wages ? — I con- sider they are. 96. If you individually were to ask for & higher rate of wages, would not your master tell you that he could obtain other persons that would work at a lower rate, and that consequently he could not give you higher wages ? — Certainly. 97. Are not the circumstances of the trade at Glasgow such^that the wages you receive are little more than are necessary to maintain the artisan in a certain degree of health ; that is, could the artisan work as long as he does, if he received less wages than he now does ? — The wages that he now receives are not sufficient to procure a sufficient quantity of the coarsest food that is used by human beings. 98. If, under any circumstances, tliis coarse food were to become cheaper tliao it now is, the number of labourers remaining the same, do you not imagine Uiat they would be obliged to take a lower rate of wages, provided they could obtain pre- cisely the same quantity of coarse food with that lower rate of wages which they ■ {her rate of wages? — Certainly they would; it would be no Jultph Faster and Jame.i Little, ao February, 1827. . advantage to us. 337. BS 99. Why I Joseph FotUr and Jamu Little. 20 February, 1827. Ifr I'i: 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 99. Why do you think to? — It would be no advantage, io this way ; our masters would just say, We can get it wrought by others; there are three workers for every one that is needed ; he would say, This man will do it for a trifle lesSi and I must employ him instead of you ; and a few months would bring it to the same thing. 100. What would it come to at last? — That I cannot telL 101. Would it not come to the smallest amount at which a weaver caa aiford to live ? — 'It has come to that at present 102. Do you know whether the power-loom manufacturers have been fully employed ? — They were not ft short time ago, but they are generally employed now. 103. You cannot speak positively as to their situation? — With respect to the wages they cam, I have a general knowledge of their situation. 104. Do any of them belong to your society ?— None of them. 1 05. Having come to the determination of emigrating to America, what has been the expectation that you and your friends have formed, as to the situation in which you would be placed when you got there' — We expected that His Majesty's Government, with the assistance of Parliament, would give a grant of land, and Uie means of occupying it, with a passoge out, and this is what we have petitioned Parliament for. . 1 06. When you say that, do you mean that each individual family is to get a septuate grant of land, and separate assistance from Parliament ? — Yes. 107. Have you had an opportunity of reading the Report and Evidence of the Emigration Committee ? — We have had ; we read extracts and papers from it ; that portion of them that related more directly to us. 108. You understand, generally, the nature of the principal assistance tliat has been given to the emigrants that went out in 1823 ? — We do. 1 09. If you had your choice, would you prefer, from what you have heard from your relation in Canada, to go out without assistance and take your chance of {)rospering, or to receive assistance upon the principles that are explained in the Report and the Evidence of the Emigration Committee, and to make yourself liable for the repayment of any money that might be advanced to you for that purpose? — Wc would certainly prefer to receive assistance, and make ourselves liable for the repayment of the money. 110. Would you willingly consent to an arrangement which should make your land a security for such repayment ? — Yes. 111. Tor example, if you were to be settled in the proportion of a man and woman and three children upon one hundred acres, more or less, in Upper Canada, and you were not to be culled upon to pay interest, or to pay any money for sevea years, would you undertake to pay five per cent interest for the money so advanced to you, until the period arrived at which you could pay the principal ? — Undoubtedly wc would undertake to pay that which it was in our power to pay ; we do not know the nature of the place, and the success we should meet with, but we would under- take to pay whatever sum it was possible for men of industrious habits to pay, for the purpose of repaying what we had received. 112. You would consider, that provided you received assistance, and had ample time given you for you to be placed in a situation in which you had the means of doing it, no sort of injustice would be done you in calling upon you to pay interest for the money advanced ? — No ; we would consider that, both from gratitud? and justice, we were bound to pay it. 113. Do you tliink that would be the general impression of the persons you have mentioned ? — I am certain it would ; wc have repeatedly talked of it, and I am quite prepared to give their opinion upon that subject. 1 14. Would you be willing, on receiving your allotment of land, to mortgage that allotment to the public as a security for the repayment of the money ? — Certainly ; we understood that that was generally the case. 1 1 5. Do you understand that you would not have the legal possession of that property, so ss to be able to alienate it, till you had paid the whole or part of the debt ? — We understand that perfectly. 1 1 6. You would be content to receive it upon those terms ? — Yes. 117. In short, you would be perfectly willing to consent to any arrangement which did not require of you more than what, if you were industrious and well con- ducted, you might reasonably expect that you should be able to perform ?— We would receive it with the greatest gratitude upon those terms. ■^. ■MM '.'It* 3':J >MMI1T££ ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 15 way ; our masters workers for every e lesSi and I musl the same thing. aver can afford to > have been fully meralty employed itb respect to the ca, what lias been situation in which at His Majesty's t of land, and Uie : haTC petitioned family is to get a —Yes. i Evidence of the papers from it; issistance that has I have heard from e your chance of explained in the ike yourself liable r that purpose ? — Ives liable for the dould make your on of a man and Upper Canada, money for sevea )ney so advanced -Undoubtedly we do not know we would under- }its to pay, for and had ample ad the means of u to pay interest >m gratitude and lersons you have i, and I am quite to mortgage that !y ? — Certainly ; ssession of that e or part of the ny arrangement lis and well con- perform ?— We 118. The 1 1 8. The question does not refer to your purchasing your land, but to paying back that money which is necessary to be advanced for the purpose of transporting you to Canada, and placing you in a situation in which you would be able to prosper in that country ? — Certainly. 119. You, of course, would be liable to any local iaxes in that counti7, that the laws of that country might impose ? — No doubt of it, we are aware that they are necessary to a certain extent. lao. Have you any relation or friend who has emigrated to the United States ? — I have, but it is a long time back ; I have had no communication with him. 121. You do not know any person that has emigrated to the United States from Glasgow or Paisley ? — No. 12a. If you went to America, and the option was civen you of gaining your livelihood in some manufacture or trade, should you prefer that instead of taking to agricultural pursuits? — We, as a society, are determined, and my own opinion, as an individual, is the same, not to meddle with manufacture ; we are quite disgusted with it, and tired of it. 1 23. You have referred to your brother in Upper Canada ; will you inform the ' Committee of the condition in which his last account represent him to be? — His ^ address is, the head of Long Soult, on the Ottawa. He said that he had a considerable ' portion of land cleared, he did not name what ; he said that he had some cattle, land with the produce of his own farm and land, and a little he had purchased like- ' wise, he waited a few months on the canal, and sold it to those who were digging it, and that he got a turn of money which was particularly serviceable to assist him in getting on in the world. 1 24. Do you know how much money he had when he went out ? — He had but a very few pounds, eight or ten pounds, after paying all expenses of landing in Canada. 1 25. Had he any other aid from government but the grant of the land ? — He did get implements of agriculture likewise, and some other assistance. 126. Had he any money assistance? — He did not say exactly, but he said that he fell into a great error in not going out of this country upon the government grant, and had he not by some means obtained some assistance, he would have been in '; embarrassed circumstances. 127. Did he pay his own passage ?— Yes. 128. Was he alone, except his wife and children? — There were his wife and ' children and himself. 1 29. Do you know what his passage cost him ? — He paid, I think, five pounds each passenger. 130. Was that for passage and provisions? — For passage and provisions, and he took a certain portion of provisions with him. 131 . Was he landed in Quebec for that ? — He was. 132. Have you or any of your society made any estimate of the expense of going out to Canada? — We have notj wc looked at the general list 01 expense ttiat it cost in 1820 and 1821, and we thought that probably it might be modified, but we have not made an estimate. 133' What do you understand the expense to have been in 1820 and 1821 ? — I think it was 6/. for each passenger. 134. To what extent could persons connected with your society pay the expense of conveying themselves to Canada ? — As a body I thmk they could pay nothing ; but we applied to a number of wealthy and respectable citizens, we told them of our embarrassed circumstances, and we solicited their assistance in forming a fund to provide clothes and other necessaries ;;^ they said they would in part assist us, and a number of them have subscribed, and others have promised they will yet do more when we ere enabled to avail ourselves of it ; they have subscribed something for the purpose of clothing and other necessaries. 135. Are the subscriptions they have entered into, for the express purpose of I facilitating your emigration, or for general charity ? — For facilitating our emigration, I undoubtedly. 1 36. Suppoting arrangements to be made for ^ving you in Canada grants of land, with some assistance in forming your settlements, by giving you tools and other things, do yoo think that persons desirous of emi^tin^ could, either by their own means or through the assistance of their wealthier neighbours, be able to convey themselves to Canada at their own expense ? — We thbk not. 337- B4 137- Do Joiepk Foiltr and Jamet LittU. to Februuy, 1837. I" I I* Jostph Fo*ttr •nd Jame.: Little. ao February, 1837. ■t \G MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 137. Do you think, if it were ascertained that provision was made there for their reception and their establishment upon the land, that persons desirous of emigrating would not be able to muster sufficient means, either of their own or by the aid of those disposed to assist them, to take them out ? — We think not. 138. You have said, that every person of your society that was disposed to go to America, had the expectation of obtaining a grant of land ; have you any idea that emigrants would be found willing to go for the purpose of offering tlieir labour to others, without having a special grant of land to each parly that went? — There are none of our association that seem to wish it i their object is to obtain a grant of land, so as to become independent by their own industry. 1 39. If the Committee understood you correctly, you stated, in a former part of your examination, that you would prefer to receive assistance, not in money but in kind, at the time of your location in Canada, and to make yourself and your land responsible for tlie repayment of the expense so incurred for you, rather tlian to be sent over to that country without any sort of demand upon you for the future, not receiving that species of assistance, but taking the chance of prospering, either as labourers or as colonists ? — We are quite determined in our mind that we should accept of the grant of land and support from government, and repay it, in preference to tiie other plan ; indeed we consider there is no comparison between the two, for our chance of succeeding in tliat case would be so much better. 140. To the extent, therefore, of the repayment of what it may be necessary to advance to you, to put you in a condition to become independent in Canada, and paying the interest upon it till that repayment took place, you think that tliose wlio have sent you here arc unanimous in opinion with you, as to the preference of accepting assistance for the purpose of emigration on those terms ? — I am quite certain they are. 141. And you yourself, and those who are embarked with you in this attempt to obtain relict, think that repayment upon tliose principles is just and fair and equitable ? — We do. 142. Is it the object of your society to go out together, so as to be settled in one neinhbourhood, or in one village? — Yes, it is the object of a great proportion of them. 143. Do you imagine that if you were collected together into one neighl)our- hood, there would be a certain degree of influence exercised, that would make them more careful to maintain good conduct and honesty, tlian if tliey were among strangers?— -We are certain it would ; and, as an individual, I tliink it would. 144. Do you think tliat you could more materially assist each other, if you were all collected together into little villages, than if you were i ittered abroad ? — Yes ; out of our society we would select our associates and friends, and be serviceable to each other. 145. Before the persons composing this society made up their minds to wish to leave their native country, you of course made inquiries whether you could find oc- cupation in any other trade besides weaving, in Scotland r — We have, and we sec no prospect of it. 146. Have you made diligeut inqnirics as to other trades, in your native country r — We have. 147. And you can find no opening for employment in Scotland? — We cannot; I have a boy who has been weaving tlirec or lour years, and I have been two years looking out, and I cannot And an opening to put him in another trade, though 1 have equal influence with other working men. 148. Of course, all the members of that society, if they could find an opening in tlieir native country, would prefer it ?— Yes, but they see no possibility of doing it ; they have no hope but of going to Canada. 140. If you had the power of going there, what part of the North American colonies would you prefer to be located in? — In Upper Canada; they have not particularly fixed upon any part of it, but it was the general opinion of the society, that they would prefer Upper Canada. 150. Is there any thing else you wish to state to the Committee? — I wish to state one thing with respect to the peculiar situation of those who are disposed to go to Canada, with whom we are connected : they take their houses from year to year, commencing on the 28th of May, they bargain for those houses at what is called Martinmas, in November, consequently there are none of them that have taken tlieir houses for the ensuing year; and on the sSth of May, at twelve o'clock, every individual of those will be without a house, without furniture, without working implements some »5 beadii lOSC their a littl to mj other: 15: lasg amon >5: by tl« averaf the pi house iSi arreai »5( jjccte rrear ivorksl not th 158 manui of fan of get is quil i6u situati 140?- 161 abstra 8uflici( good 1 morel 162 of the the m 163 and pi of the i6z spcaki \6i time I imagii demai absorl 23: \ ^^ DOMMITTEE made there for their esirous of emigrating >wn or by the aid of t. ras disposed to go to ve you any idea that fering their labour to it went? — There are o obtain a grant of , in a former part of not in money but in irsclf and your land >u, rather than to be >u for the future, not prospering, cither as lind that we should epay it, in preference between the two, for msy be necessary to lent in Canada, and ou think that tiiosc IS to the preference terms? — I am quite 3U in this attempt to IS just and fair and s to be settled in one great proportion of into one neighhour- lat would make them f tliey were among think it would. :h other, if you were ;rcd abroad ? — Yes ; nd be serviceable to :ir minds to wish to r you could find oc- I'e have, and wc sec your native country r and ?^We cannot ; luve been two years trade, though 1 have d find an opening in issibility of doing it ; le North American ida; they have not inion of the society, imittee? — I wish to vho are disposed to r houses from year sc houses at what is of them that have y, at twelve o'clock, ire, without working implements ■ ^ ft 4 ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 17 implements, and without the means of following their trade ; consequently they who have been waiting with patience,' some of them for several years and the whole of them for one year, will be seized with all the horrors of despair, if they do not get to Canada this spring, or this summer. This is one thing tiiat 1 was desired to state to this honourable Committee ; and likewise we were authorized to make our appeal to some of the gentlemen and noblemen of our country, in pomt of subscription, to follow up this object; this was part of our errand m coming here; but in particular I was authorized to state, and I am happy to have it in my power to call the attention of this honourable Committee to that circumstance, that at that period, and even before it, they will be in that state ; they are now beginning almost to despair, when the season is so far advanced, and nothing is decided upon, and no arrangements made for the ensuing year ; it is bordering on desperation with some of them at present. 151. Though the situation you describe is that of the one hundred and forty heads of families composing this Emigration Society, is it a situation peculiar to those persons ? — It is peculiar to them in no other way than that they have had their attention turned to it previous to others in Lanarkshire, and that they have a little money subscribed to provide clothing and other necessaries, which no others, to my knowledge, have; but it is peculiar in no other point; there are hundreds of ^^Others in similar circumstances. 152. Can you form any idea of the probable number of hand-loom weavers in [Glasgow and Paisley ? — In Glasgow and the suburbs there were 1 1,000 looms going ; among tiiose of course there are boys and girls. ' 153- What are at the present time the average net earnings of each hand weaver by the week, on an average? — I should say ^s. 6d. 154. What is the house-rent of each individual by the half year, upon the average? — It depends upon the house they occupy, it is from tliree to four pounds ; the place of working for one weaver is one pound, not included ; they have their house and shop besides that. 155. Are not the greater proportion of the house-rents of those weavers now in arrear ? — They are. 156. Consequently they are at the mercy of their landlords, and may be ejected ? — They are just at their mercy ; almost every individual of them is in trrear. 157. Is it the practice of the manufacturers of Glasgow io have houses and workshops, which they let out to the weavers they themselves employ ^-^No, it is not the general practice. 158. Are the houses they occupy frequently wholly independent of the master manufacturers ? — Yes. 159. If Government were to consent to make grants of land to those 140 heads of families of which your society consists, do you think you could find any means of getting assistance to take you there and to settle you there ? — We could not, it is quite impossible. i6u. Even if those 140 were provided for, you are understood to state that the situation of all the other hand weavers in Glasgow is as desperate as that of those 140? — There are numbers of them as desperate. ifii. Can you form any opinion whether if five hundred or a thousand were abstracted from the present population of your neighbourhood, there would be sufficient work for the remainder? — Not at good wages; they could not obtain good wages supposing one half or two thirds were taken, but they would find work more readily. 162. You do not think there would be work at fair wages even for one-third of the existing population ? — I think not, from tlie cause I before mentioned, namely, the machinery. 1 63. What sort of food forms the principal subsistence of the weavers ? — Oatmeal and potatoes, and probably a little salt herring or something of that kind; a number of them have not a sufficient quantity of that. 164. How many hand weavers are there in Glasgow and Paisley? — Generally speaking, I might say 15,000 in Glasgow and Paisley. 165. Even if 500 hands were removed, and the power-loom were improved from time to time as rapidly as it has been improved for the last two years, do you not imagine that the removal of 500 hands would produce no eft'ect by crealmg any fresh demand for hand labour ? — I think it would not ; I think the machinery would just absorb the whole businesr 237. C 166. You Joieph Futttr aud Jame* Littlt, 90 Februan', 1817. 1 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Jouph Fotttr and Jamu LUtle. 10 Ftbruarjr, 1S17. it)6. You .:ay that the power loom is not yet perfect, but tliat it is constantly being improved ? — It is constantly being improved. 167. Of how many hand weavers can one pair of power*iooms do the work, in the course of the day' — It is at least equal to six. 168. And the work of one girl upon a pair uf power-lnonis is sufficient? — It is ; one man looking over thirty or forty or fifty of those girls, and keeping the materials in order. 169. If the number of hand-loom weavers were diminished, and the wages of the remaining number increased, would not the price of the manufactured article be also increased r — I think, from the nature of the power loom, as I said before, taking up all the business, the price of the manufactured article cannot bo increased. 170. If it were increased, it would check the jale of the manufactured article ?— It would. 171. And therefore it would, in your opinion, make the situation of the hand-loom weaver as bad as before? — I think that it cannot be increased, from the quantity of work performed by the power loom ; just in proportion as the demand increases, in that proportion the power looms will increase. 1 72. Which is the clicapest, a piece of goods made by a power-loom or a piece of goods made by a hand loom r — A power-ioom is the cheapest. Nan Pauley Fr J. Campbell, Es(|, 33 February, 1827. Juvis, 22* die Fehruarii, 1827. Archibald Campbell, Esq. a Member of the Committee ; was Examined. 1 73. HAVE you had an opportunity of reading the evidence given before tliis Committee on Tuesday lust, by the two deputies from ttui Glasgow Emigration Soriety ? — I have. 174. Does your information enable you to concur iu the statement they have made ? — In the fullest manner ; I concur in every fact stated by the people that were examined. 175. Are you enabled to inform the Committee of the extent to which dis'a'ess, of a similar nature, exists in any part of Scotland ? — I can speak more particilarly with reference to Renfrewshire, than with reference to any part of Lanar'^shire. Here is a Statement of the number of families, distinguishing the ages of the children, who are seeking to emigrate from the county of Renfrew. [J7te same wat delivered in, and read, at/oUowt:] • 'I^H ^I^H entii I^B I^H exte ^H ■^H ^B ^B ^H p^" ^H num ^H| to ei \ ^H whoi ^^H m ^"* ^^1 the ( ^^1 som< IB favo ■fi 8*** ■■;M 1 :;jM encc A-^^K * !''^8l emp \ Mm whi< ABSTRACT :^ ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 19 1 before this Emigration It they have people that ich dibii.-ess, particularly Lanar'ishire. the children, n V. ABSTRACT of the Number of Persons composing the following Societies in the County of Seriflvw, who have petitioned for aid to enable them to emigrate to tlie British PosiessioM in North America ; made up by direction of the Lord Lieutenant of Reiifrewihire, Jannary 1827. Hcadi of Familiea: Male Children: Total Nuttbw of Mtia ChUdraa. Female Children i ^1 || Name of Socktjr. Mm. WoaNH. Uiidir Ymh o(A(«. AboT* fcnndw M. Abofa •0 Ytm ofAga- Cnd« ■ 9 Tom of Akc AboT* kandtr •0. Abort »o Yrm ofAg*. 'auIcT Friendly Emigration') Society, N» I./ lOO 9« 138 7a «5 335 113 47 16 185 606 'oislcy Caledonian d* d* 54 53 C4 38 10 113 ca 16 10 89 308 >aiilcy & Suburbs d* d* 5O 5O Ci 30 5 9C 68 33 7 87 395 Ufley Canadinn d* d* 119 105 146 8t s6 353 135 55 aC 300 67C liiloT Calodonion-itrcct 1 d* d«/ 36 37 39 9 8 5C 35 8 1 44 153 ho Irish Friendly d* d» 101 99 - - - - - - - - 576' Idcrsht Emigration d° 50 50 70 44 - 114 44 53 - 97 3" lorrhuad&Neilstond* d* 43 43 46 •7 6 79 44 >9 »4 77 «4a Iroomlond - - d* d* 66 64 84 45 16 >45 Ga 31 G 99 374 iibemian Proteit* d* d* 60 59 68 46 9 133 49 3> 8 88 330 So»an Emigratioa d' SO 48 4« 38 to 80 6« 35 8 95 373 ?oi»ley Friendly d'N'a 60 60 76 50 00 146 64 34 aa 130 38C Johnston Emigration df • >5 15 36 13 11 50 18 18 7 43 133 Total - - 793 775 860 483 136 M79 736 3C9 135 1,330 4,653 ' The Return made by lUa Society doea not diatinguish the nurabera of Male and Female Children) but the numbeia of Children, Male and Female, are, Under 13 Above la 171 305 376 176. Do those societies consist of hand-loom weavers? — I believe they do, entirely. 177. Can you explain to the Committee what district they extend over? — ^They extend over the whole of the county of Renfrew ; a great number of them that are resident in the villages, are employed partly in agriculture. 178. Are there many of them in some cfegree accustomed to agricultural habits ? —Yee 179. Are you prepared to give the Committee any details respecting any other persons similarly situated in that part of the kingdom ? — I know there are a great number in the adjoining county of Lanark, who are also petitioning for assistance to emigrate. There are likewise various societies in the county of Renfrew, for whom Mr. Maxwell, the member for the county, has presented [)ctitions. 1 80. Do you think that those people for the most part are aware of the nature of the country and of the labour that will be required of them ? — I think they are, from the correspondence that took place between them and the emigrants that went out some years ago, whose reports with regard to their situation have been extremely favourable ; I have seen many letters from those settlers who went out in 1 820, that gave a very favourable account of their siUiation in Upper Canada. 181. You think they are aware of the nature of the difficulties they will Iiave to encounter, and are ready to meet them ? — I think they are, generally. 182. Do you consider that there is any opportunity at present of their being employed in their own country, in such a manner as to obtain wages of labour by which they can support themselves? — I think not 237. C 2 183. I« ■A. Camfbttt, Esq. «3 Februafj, i8a7. ao MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE it February, 1897. *.| 1 ji A. CampbtU, 183. Is it a prevailing opinion in that pnrt of ths country, that there is no early '^*elievc, was as high as a,6oo at one time ; they have been gradually diminish- ing, for some weeks. lyf). Does that 22,000/. apply to Renfrewshire alone ? — To Renfrewshire alone ; we have no commimicution with any otiier county. 200. Do you happen to know whether the majority of persons receiving relief from this fund, are Scoich or Irish ? — The greater proportion are Scotch ; there are still some Irish that have been in the country for a long time, and arc in a manner established there, who have gained what would be called in this country a settlement. 201. In Scotland there is no law of removal ? — No. 202. Does not three years continued residence give a settlement in Scotland ? — It does. 203. Do you know the Abbey parish in Paisley ? — Perfectly. 204. Do you fcmcmber, in 1819, an application being made by 835 able-bodied men for relief, on account of the stagnation of trade in that parish ? — I cannot say that I recollect the exact circumsu*nces ; I know there was a question arose upon an application from certain people claiming a right to relief; but what decision there was upon that, or whether there ever was any decision, I do not remember; I think the thing is not decided now. 205. Was not the application [to the kirk session in the first instance refused, and was there not upon that an appeal to the sheritTr — That I recollect 206. Did not the shcrift* in that case, make an order on tho kirk session to assess themselves for the relief of those 825 persons? — 1 do not recollect. 207. You say that you have seen favourable accounts from some persons who have settled in the northern provinces of America ; are you aware of the extent of assistance from government that those settlers received r — I am not. 208. Can you state whether the appointment of this Committee has created much expectation among the heads of families composing those emigration societies in Refrewshirc, that they are to get relief from government to carry them to America ? — There is no doubt that very sanguine expectations have been raised in consequence of the report of the Committee that sat in the last year. 209. You have stated, that it is the general opinion in Renfrewshire, that no early opportunity will occur of employing those |)crsons who are now in a state of distress; you have also stated, that the sum of 22,000/. has been expended in their support, such sum arising from local and voluntary subscriptions ; have you any reason to suppose, under the existing circumstances of that part of Scotland, that in the ensuing year those parties can be sustained at a less expense than what hos been incurred in the last ? — I should hope at infinitely less, from the appearance of the revival of trade ; and the weavers are at tliis moment, as I stated before from the authority of the chief magistrate, now in work, all of them, and wages are advancing. 210. You conceive that the pressure upon the other classes is of a temporary nature ? — -I conceive so. 211. You have stated, that a great number of the Irish have been sent back from Renfrewshire to their own country, and that means have been taken to prevent their return \ will you have the goodness to state more in detail the nature of those means ? — When we gave an Irishman a ticket upon a steam boat, to carry him back, and a loaf to subsist upon for the day, we took an exact description of his person, and a«8ured him, that if he returned, he would not be entitled to any relief from our funds. .' A. CampteU, •ii Fcbmury, 1817. 237. C3 21a. Is it IVbriwrjr, 1817. 93 MINUTES OF EVIDEN'CK DnFORE SELECT COMMITTEE HI. U nut that ilfciHion uptiiiKt relieving thuto Iriili, in tliu event of their return, equally opcrutivf nj^uinNt nny olliur Iriih wliu may come, pruvideii Huflicicnt publi- city wei'o ^iven to that rcftolution ? — I have no doubt it luight opcruto in that manner. 313. Arc you 8|K;nkin({ now of relief atVordod accordin)} to law, or of relief afforded i)y voluntury aubBcription?— Of relief uflfordcd by voluntary Hubiicription entirely. 214. Do you con.siilcr tliut there is any relief imposed by law, in the com of Irish people coming into UenlVewithirc ? — i'hose that havu been aettlvd there for three years, I tliink, have tliu same cluiin for relief that tlio natives have. a I. 5- In the cuMU tliorct'oru of fresh Irish arriving, until they have be<.'n thoru three years they would have no legal cluini for relief? — Certainly not. ai(). It is tliree years continued residence thutgivca a right to relief, in Scotland ? — So I understand. 317. Can you inform the Committeo what proportion of thu aa,ouo/. which was raised for thu relief of those pcrHonw, was raised by voluntary contributions on tlie spot, and what proportion was received from the London Ueliof Committee ?— ABSTRACT of the Ucceipts and Kxpendituro of the Curomittee of the County of RcH/h-i,; a|)pi)inted for tho Relief of the Unemployed Operative Manufae- turers, to the 22ii of February 1827. KKCEIVED t From The Kint^ ..-..-. From the London llelief Committee From the Edinburgh Relief Committee . . - From thu Committee of tlie County of Haddington • From the Newcastle Committee - - - . From the Glasgow Committeo .... Amount of local Subscriptions, and otticr private pe- cuniary donations, proceeds of Church Uollections, Charity Ralls and Concerts, and Receipts for Work performed - BXPENDBD : in Wa^es for out-door labour provided by the Com- mittee, and in distribution of Provisions, Coals and small pecuniary aid - - /£• I9t56i 11 3 In providing Clothing - - - ii399 ^ ~ Balance in Treasurer s hands,*^ _ „ __ _ 2 ad February - -J " " '" £. t. d. 500 8,000 4,600 300 150 395 7.933 »9 3 ai,8G8 19 3 ai,868 19 3 N. li. — Resides the above Account, various Noblemen and Gentlemen of the county have expended very large sums in giving work and provisions to the unemployed residing contiguous to their respective estates. There have also beea considerable Contributions raised and applied within several of the Parishes ; and several thousand articles of Clothing sent by private individuals to the several depots have been distributed. The Coalmasters in the neighbourhood have also firum time to time gratuitously given large quantities of Coals. The average weekly pecuniary Expenditure of the Committee, from the com- mencement up to the 2 2d February, has been £. 410, and the average weekly number oijamitks dependent on them has been 2,030. I I \,. 218. What is the class of persons H the present moment receiving relief from the local funds? — ^The chief demand upon the Paisley relief fund at present is from widows and orphan families ; the men in general have been struck on. 319. If one thousand weavers were removed from Glasgow and its neighbour- hood, and wages rose, have you any doubt that the vacuum so created would be filled up from Ireland in a very short time ' — I entertain not the least doubt upon the ilTTEE of tlicir return, ufliciunt publi- pvruto in that ', or of rcliof 7 Bubacription in the cuau of ittlcd tlivru for lave. va been tbero f, in Scotland ? )o/. wliich was butionti on tlic mnittec }— the County of tivc Manufac- *. (I. sta tlmt liiunc ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: i8>7. 23 the subject. I bavo hero u Itttvr which I rrccivcd a few dnyi ajfo from the central committee of the Emigration societies of Keiifruwiiiiire. [The tame wot delivered in, and read, / ciple of relief I is the ground 'Ri only, Scot- the danger itt :reated by the )erty is liable, irence. V .h to make i - 5 :ertain degree of Ireland, in min" to Scot- ive Scotchman ves by his own :tlement what- Id be the last d and Ireland, hicli the Irish more diiHcult, y of considera- lum that might dundant pupu- lich I speak. Sfonc whatever, ig acquired, no :hargeable. ;tanccs of Eng- ) Scotland and : it equally de- self against the veen the law of luntrics. e parochial lair in the law of laterial distinc- settleincnts, is Gotland is very amined. upon to con- They certainly mve been sub- ere have been, by the gentry ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 18^7- a; 340. What is the occupation of those persons who are desirous of emigrating in your part of the country ?— Operative cotton weavers, hand-loom weavers. 350. Do you conceive that the gentlemen in your part of the country would be willing to aid those persons in emigrating? — I think very little assistance can bt, looked for from that quarter, they have made such great exertions already ; and I believe there is a feeling that the advantage to themselves and to the country in which they live would be very small from an emigration of that description, for various reasons. They would probably consider that the gap in the population would very soon be filled up from other quarters, and in particular by the influx of Irishmen m the western part of Scotland, who art in fact driving the population of the country out of their employment by working at a cheaper rate than the natives, from their habits, can do. 251. Do you conceive that the exchange of Irishmen for the native population of that part of the country would be a good or a bad exchange r — I tliink it a great evil ; it tends to the depreciation of the moral habits of the people. 252. Do you find the habit of industry of the Irish, and their moral conduct, to be very inferior to that of the native population of that descriptioA ? — Upon the . whole I certaitily consider them to be very much inferior. 253. Are they inferior in point of industry ? — ^There are a number of tiie Irish who are certainly very remarkable for industrious habits ; but we remark that there is I a. degree of unsteadiness about them, as compared with our own people ; they will work hard for a time, but then a change takes place, a row or a fight occurs, and they cannot be depended upon for continuing in any settled habit of industry. ^ 254. Do not they work at a lower rate of wages than the Scotch ? — Yes, I believe they generally do ; but we find that in certain classes of labour, for example in all the lower departments, even in Edinburgh, the labour is tarried on by Irishmen; the scavengers and lamplighters, and people of that description, are almost all Irishmen. 255. Are not those Irish, who are now displacing the Scotch labourers, conteiit to live without those decent comforts, the want of which would shame a native Scotchman r — Yes. 2^,6. Have they been the means of introducing religious animosities and feuds ( into that part of the country ?— I have not had any opportunity of observing that ; i bi-t I know that there have been disturbances in Edinburgh within the last few {rears, which have been occasioned by the influx of Irish ; tliey take place particu- arly on Sunday, a day on which the lower orders of the Scotch arc not accustomed [to any thing of that sort. 257. Have you known any Orange processions in Edinburgh ? — No, I have not. 258. You have stated, that if emigration were to take place to any amount from that part of Stirlingshire with which you are acquainted, the vacuum so created would be instantly filled up, either by people flowing in from other parts of the : country, or by labourers coming from Ireland ; have not the proprietors in that part of the country a discretion of letting tlie houses, or of refusing to let the houses to which those emigrants go ? — A great proportion of the houses in the country villages do not belong to the landed proprietors, but to whai we call feuars ; that is to say, the house is the actual property of a person who has no other pro- perty but that house ; and an individual of that inferior station will generally let it to the person that offers him at the moment, witliout even good security, tlie highest rent. 259. They belong to a class of persons that do not contribute eitlier in a volun- tary or a compulsory manner to tlie relief of the poor ?— In a great measure they do, certainly. 260. Is not personal property as well as r'* ^ property in Scotland ratealble in I aid of the parochial funcls lor the relief of the poor ? — It is, but there are very (few instances in that part of the country of any legal assessment. 261. Upon the failure of voluntary contributions for that purpose, have you any Idoubt that, by law, property both real and personal is rateable ? — I have no doubt Hhat it is liable. 162. Does it consist with your knowledge that the appointment of this Com- Imittee has created much expectation on the part of persons desirous of emigrating, |tliat thev are to get considerable assistance from the Government to carry tliem to f North America? — I am inclined to think it has created expectations. 363. Do you think that it has in any degree unsettled their present views of [occupation ? — 1 am not aware that it has. 337' D 2 264. Ho H. H. n r m m md, Eeq. y.. - ^ ' aa February, 18-27. 28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE H. H. Drummond, Est). aa February, 1837. ^264. Do you think that if wages were to rise there, so as to place them in a better condition, they would Still resort to emigration, rather than avail themselves of such rise of wiges ? — I should be inclined to think they would rather give up all idea of emigrati'>n, in those circumstances.- 365. Are you aware of the Barony parish case that came before the Court of Session in the year 1824? — I have frequently heard the case mentioned. a66. Do you think tliat under that decision, an Irishman, having gained a setde- ment in Scotland, though able-bodied, if he cannot find employment, has at the present moment u legal claim on the poor fund of a p&rish in Scotland ? — I have no idea that any able-bodied person, whether Irish or Scotch, has a legal claim for relief in Scotland. 267. Notwithstanding that decision? — I do not understand that that was the import of that decision. 268. Are you aware oi" what were the facts of the case which occurred with respect to the Abbey parish in Paisley? — I understood that an application was made in the ordinary course to the heritorj of the parish and kirk session, by an Irish pauper, for relief ; the relief was refused' him; he then went by petition to the sheriff; the sheriff affirmed the proceeding of the heritors and kirk session, and he then removed his case from the court of the sheriff into the Court of Session, and the Court of Session found that the sheriff had no jurisdiction to review the pro- ceeding of the heritors and kirk session. 269. These words have been quoted as forming part of the decision of the Court of Session, in the case of The Barony Parish v. Higgins, " That a pauper in Scot- land is not a beggar of charity, but a creditor of a fund, of which the kirk session an>l the heritors are accountable trustees." Would it appear to you, from these words, that that principle was applicable to able-bodied paupers ? — No, I see nothing whatever atl'ecting that question, in that decision. 27U. Supposing emigration to take place to any extent in the district with which you are acquainted, would not the effect of that emigration, in your opinion, be to raise tlie p'ice of labour? — I should suppose so. 271. Do you not conceive that a rise in the price of labour would operate to induce an increased influx of people into the district in question ? — Unquestionably. 272. From what quarter do you conceive that influx of people would come?— - > Partly from the neighbouring parts of Scotland, and also from Ireland. 273. Supposing a system of emigration to the colonies to take place from Scot- land, at a time when no such system of colonial emigration took place from Ireland, would not the inducement to the Irish to emigrate to Scotland, be greater than it now is r — Undoubtedly. 274. Is not the tendency of the present system, in the district to which your evi- .*dencehas reference, the substitution of an Irish population for the original Scotch ^''population? — I think it is. 275. Has that of late very much augmented, in consequence of the facility v" steam-boat navigation? — It has; the Irish come over, I believe, at from 4o7. Thof tax is levied when a plain web goes to the printfield? — Yes, I believe His. 368. Tiie only work which the power-loom cannot now produce equally with the hand loom, is a variegated pattern ?— Yes, there is a difficulty in that. 369. Can you state at what rate of wages you suppose a hand-loom weaver could successfully enter into cuni[)etition with a power-loom weaver? — I could not, but 1 think he could not possibly compete with him finally. 370. At no rate of wages ; not even at 5*. or 6*. a week.? — That would be such a deterioration of his condition that I could scarcely suppose an English labourer to coin pete under those circui.istances ; he would have to give up his clothing, and diminish iiis subsistence. 371. You stated one case, where you knew of a manufacturer that employed a great number of hand-loom weavers, although he had the means of instituting machinery ? — That is to say, part of the manufactory consisted of machinery, and part of it of hand-loom weaving; but it was ;iot what is culled the cottage system, It was hand-loom weaving in a manufactory, where the dressing and preparation of the web was doie by machinery, and the weaver had nothing to do but to sit 16 years old, 0, lof. to ia«. ords, ordinary e yarn is used} ;wer-loom8 are i; the average . to ai years of f\ho hands are improved hand cloth per wecic gd, per wcelc ; lity, a man will ) J. ; a woman lan will weave ards per weelc, 'c? — From the wy it must be lom, of a better lurc equal ; but uses sonic pro- , tiiinks that he chinery alone, the cost of the ind loom, is it lis country? — must give way liere wages are g was adopted -Yes, I believe ; equally with that. d-loom weovcr — I could not, would be such iglish labourer s clothing, and at employed a of instituting ii»cliinery, ana ;ottage svstem, nd preparation » do but to sit got somewhat higher 1 ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 15 higher wages than the mere cottage hand>loom weaver, who had to dress his own web, «c. 37^ Did that individual continue that kind of hand-loom system in consequence of the cheapness of labour ? — Yes, he told me so. 373- ^ou mentioned calicoes that were wove at the rate of three farthing* u Krd ; at what rate could the same description of calico be wove by the power }m ? — I cannot state that ; but I suppose not much cheaper. 374. Did you go yourself into any of the power^loom factories? — No, I did not in Manchester. 375. Did you learn from inquiries that the rate of waffcs paid was generally in proportion to the number of |>ower-looms that each indiviaual attended ? — Yes, I understood tliat. 376. And that some attended one louro* some two, and some three r — I did not i ,.HH know that they went 90 far as three. ' 377. You have stated tliot 11 weovcr, according to the cottage system, earned, till the last year, from (our shillings to five shillings a week ; do you happen to know how much he earned in 1835, when you have stated that there was a great demand for labour ? — No, I do not exactly ; but I understood during the lust ten years, that wages had chnnged from io.f. to 20 x., making an average of I5.(. per week. 378. Did there seem to you to be a very strong wish on the part of the distressed inhabitants of Manchester, to emigrate? — It wus a (|Ucstion I never asked any one of them ; I was desirous of exciting no feeling upon that or any other subject ; I wai there as 1 private individual. 379. You have been in different parts of America, have you not? — I have. 380. Do you consider that the surplus population of our nianufocturing towns are calculated to make good settlers in the buck woods of America i — I have never had any experience upon that subject, from what I have seen in the Report of the Emigration Committee, it would appear that a person that had been a cottage hand-loom weaver could very soon obtain the linowlcdge necessary to cultivate the ground, where the fertility of the soil is such that it requires nothing but an axe to cut down the trees, and a hoe to put in the seed. 381. Are you not aware that to wield the axe requires a very powerful arm ? — Yes. 382. Do you think that the habits of a munufucturer are calculated to give him sufficient strength for the labours of the field, in a new country ? — Not equal to the back-woodsman, for a constant occupation ; but his occupation in felling trees would be very limited, because he would soon be able to fell as much as he wanted, and tiic ground so cleared of the timber would be able to subsist him ; and therefore the talent for felling trees would not be much required of him, as he would not pursue the felling of trees, except for the purpose of clearing the ground he himself intended to cultivate. 383. In a new settlement would not each settler be obliged to fell tl>e trees upoa his lot?— Cwiainly. 384. Must he not, then, have strength sufficient for that purpose? — Certainly he must have strength, but it does not appear to me to require so very great an effort of strength; it oppears to me that it may be managed a great deal by address; for instance, by cutting trees in a certain manner, and pullmg down one, it sends down many others with it ; timt address, and others of a like kind, would soon be acquired by an European ; but he certainly would not be so dexterous at it as the back-woodsman of America. 385. But you do not consider him incapable of performing the labour necessary in a new settlement ? — Most certainly not. 3S6. Would not the natural course be, that upon emigrants arriving, the previous settlers would assist tliem in cutting down the trees upon their land, wliilc the emi* grants lent their labour to other purposes, to whicli they were more suited ? — There certainly might be some subdivision of labour admitting of that arrangement. 387. Are you acquainted with the emigrations of Irish or English tlmt arrive in America without any crpital ; and are you able to inform the Cunmiittee, from your own knowledge, of the (general circumstances that attend the parties so arriving? — I could not speak with great knowledge of the details, but I can state what I ob- served when in the city of New York. I found that most of the coachmen and carmen, and that class of people, were Irish; such occupations gave employment to a great number ; but if you were to send four or five thousand more, great distress would arise in the city of New York, from those people not being oble to get em- ployment. In the city of New York, there are vai-ious societies under the name of 237. £ •! So< ictics 3(5 MINUTKS OF KVIOKNCK MEI'OUK SKLKCT COMMITTKK Mr\)iir Tkiimat Miioilji. 'i4 KdiruHry, 1117. SucirtioA for the Rcfii^n of tlif Di'stitiitr, ami fur tho prevention of imupcrUni, kc; Hiich ('lmritul)l(' Rocietic-H have lor (heii «)l)jL'ct to relivvc forci^iicTN in (hittri'Hi. I think it was in iin American im|)er of hist Mcptetnher, in tho Alhuny Adverting, tliat there wa* h coiiiphiint ot Slew York Menttin^ up Irish eniiftrantu in the itteani- hoatii from New York \ in order to ^et riil of tiioni, tlicy ttent thcin up to Alhuny, and the people in Allmny not hnving employment for them at that seuHon of the year, felt it 11 very ^rent mconvenience, und tiiey spoke uf it a» u matter of eomplaint that tho i)cople uf New Yurk Mlionld send that cluiis of people to them. .188. 1)0 yon think yourself anthuri/ed, from tho inforniaticm you have ohtained, in giving' an opinion uh to the etVect uf a dcHultory emigration uf un|)rovided Scotcli or Knglidh emigrants into dilVerent parts of the United States'— I should soy it would \h'. very injurious to the individually ; a few hundred, or perhaps a few thou> snnd pe()|)lu might he absorhcd, and might fuid their way finally perhaps among tho farmers in tiic back settlcmtnlji ; but if sent in very great numbers before they got there, they would sufVer a great dcol of ntisery. 381). Arc you aware that in the years 18.23 and 1S23, prior to the passing of the Passenger's Act, the voluntary emigrants from Ireland avcroged I0,;}0() an- nually? — I dare say they did, but not all to the United States. :{>)0- Were not tiioso voluntary emigrants absorbed by the demand for labour in the United States? — Many of them would he, but a great many of them suflcrcti very much, and afterwards went to our own provinces in ('anuda ; th^rc was about that period a. great demand for labour in cutting the canal from Luke Krio to Albany, which absorbed those people ; but that work being fniished, you cannot cal- culate upon the suniu employment in other years as there was in those years. 391. Is there nut u great cunul now cutting, at the expense of the American government r — The great canul that I know, is now fmished. 39J. Is there not n canal now contemplated by tho American government, between the Ohio and lake Eric? — I have heard that there is, but I do not know that it is begun. :][)■]. Are you oware of the fact, that upon the passing of the Passenger's Act in i8'.<4, in tiie following year tho average number of voluntary emigrants from Ireland diniinisiied from 10,300 to 7,,')00? — It might be so, but I could not connect tiu- mere co-cxistenec of the passing of thut Act and the diminishing of the number of emigrants, so fur as the United States are concerned, because there might have been a less demand for labour. 394. Do you know tiic price of labour in the United States ? — It is high, varying fruni half a dollar to ti dollar a day. 395. In proportion as the United States become more densely peopled in the parts adjuining tiie Atlantic, will there not be a greater ditliculty attaching to those emigrants, inasmuch as expense must be incurred by them, before they can arrive at the ground where a real demand may exist lor their labour? — So mucli so, that great expense is incurred by the Americans themselves thut go from New England to the new states, and they cannot go there without they have money ; still more must it be diilicult for an Irish emigrant to go there, and therefore they must be exposed to great ditliculty if landed in the seaports there in great numbers ; when tliey are in small numbers, the evil does not exist so much 39(1. With respect to those 10,000, to which reference has been made, is it not the fact tiiat a great number of them have gone to the Cunadas ? — A great number, no doubt; a great number of them got work in the United States, in making those canals, and in making roads, and with the money they obtained in that way, they settled themselves in Canada. 397. Do you happen to know, that although there may be an over-supply of labourers ut times in some parts of tlic United States, in point of fact, that over- supply very soon becomes absorbed by the demand from the interior for labour ? — Wiien the demond is good for their |)roductions, of course tiic labour of emigrants is sooner absorbed; but that demand has not been so great of late years as it was in former years, with reference to the population of the United States wiio work. 398. Do you know, as a matter of fact, wliether in any part of the United States there has been an over-supply of labour in the last year ? — I cannot speak positively as to tiie last year, because I have not been there. 399. Or in the previous year ? — Nor in the previous year. 400. Have you known cases of distress occurring in the United States, similar to those that have taken place in England ? — Not to so great an extent ; but individual cases of distress I have luiown. In going through the prisons at New York MITTl'E ON EMIGKATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1817. 37 pnupcrUm, kc. ; urn ill tliHtrt'ita. miiy Advortiscr, M ill the Mtcnni- 1 up to Alliuny, t DfUNuii of the tvr of complaint Mil. I have nhtniiied, provided Scuicti I Hhoiild ony it ip» ft few thou- lm|M among tiio huforc tlicy gut the passing of ^ed iu,,]()(> an- nd for luhour in f them suflcrcd h^re wus about I Lul(c Eric to you cannot cal- losc years. f tiie American an government, I do not itnow Passenger's Act einigrunts from ut 1 rouhl not diminishing of I, because there s high, varying peopled in the iiching to those tliey enn arrive ) much so, that I New England ney ; still more they must be umbers ; when made, is it not ^ great number, II making those that way, they over-supply of fact, that over- r for labour ? — ir of emigrants years as it was s who work. ; United States peak positively States, similar n extent; but -isons at New York York with \fr. Dclbit Clinton, who is now the governor, in con8e«|ueiic« of a par- ticular inquiry to which I had dire( (ed my atteiiliuii ut thai time, I wished to know the iiiiiiilicr of prisoners, their criiiii;j», and the countries of which they were natives ; ' nnil the greatest number of European criminala were Irish. The negroes, in pro- ■»4 iiortion to the population, were, as criminals, more numerous than the whites. 401. Do yon know whether the itutc of the Irish who ure in the I'liited States is not the most miserable, and whcllior they arc not tlie most wretched part of the population ? — Decidedly so, except the free black population in New York, ac- cording to the statements of Amoricuiia. 40'2. Have you ever li^ord of distress existing in any part of the munul'ucturing districts of the United States, similar 10 that which has pervaded the nnnufacturing districts in England ? — I have not. 40;}. Is the maiiufttcturu of 'jolton increasing in the United States .' — Yes, par- ticularly of the lower <|i'.aiity of goodc. 404. Is there u demand fcr hand- loom weavers there?—! should suppose there is, to a certain extent. 40,';. Are there any power-looms there? — Yes. 4()(i. H Ould tlitrc Ix; a demand for power-loom weavers there ? — Certainly. 407. Have you any means nf contparing the rate of wages obtained by weavers In this (•(Hinlry, with the rate of wnges obtained in the Uuited States? — No, I have ii'jt ; so as to speak with accuracy. 405. Would not it bo as oxpcnsivo for an inhabitant of the New England States to transp'>rt iiimself to the Ohio, where the new lands are settling, as to transport a person from England or from Ireland to Upper Canada? — I think it would be much more expensive for an American emigrant, from Massachusetts, to remove himself to the Ohio, than for an Irishman to bo landed in Upper Canada; it would be cheaper to get to the Ohio from Dublin, by the Saint Lawrence and Upper Canada, than it would be logo by any part of the United States sea ports. 40(). Are you aware that the State of New York, and most of the New England States, have u law which prohibits passengers to be landed in tiieir states without security being given by the captain, that they shall not come upon the parish ? — Yes, there is ; that they shall not be chargeable, I think, for a year and a day in New York. 410. Do you know if there is any preference given in the United States to any particular class of Uritish subjects, more than to otiiers ? — I think there is u partiality shown to the Scotch generally, by those to whom I spoke. Mtirtis, 27* die Fchniarii, 1827. The Rev. John Matthias Turner, called in ; and Examined. 411. YOU arc the rector of Wilmslowe, in Cheshire ? — I am. 41 i. That parish is within twelve miles of Manchester? — It is. 413. Is it a populous parish? — It contains about 4,000 inhabitants. 414. Are the poor rates high?— They have been very low, but we have doubled them within the last year. 41,'',. What is the principal cause to which you attribute the increase of the [)oor Mujnr Tkomtf MuuJjf. frhtwuy, i»J7. rates? — The want of employment in both branches of manufacture ; the weaving, which is our staple manufacture, and the cotton spinning, which employs a portion of our population. 41 fi. Do you make any distinction between those two branches; is the one suflering more than the other ? — I think the weaver has suffered more uniformly. 417. Can you supply the Committee with any details respecting the increase of parochial expense in the last two years ? — Broadly I should state, that our poor rates, which were in a very wholesome state in the beginning of the year, not amounting to more than half-a-crown in the pound, have become five shillings upon the rack-rent. 418. Are there in your parish any paupers whom you consider as entirely unem- ployed ? — The spinners have been entirely unemployed, and the weavers for about six weeks of the year were totally without employment. 419. What is the mode pursued with respect to the unemployed persons ? — In the months of May and June wc obtained assistance from the London Committee, and administered relief in the first instance by the direct supply of their wants, after- wards as a reward for labour. I should state to the Committee, that although in amount our poor rates arc very low, compared with the agricultural districts, yet 237- ^3 we The Rev. /. M. TurHcr. 9J Fuliriiary, 1817. 38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. M. jlW«*r. •7 Febraitnr« 1897. i'i-f M ' we are acting upon a principle which must of necessity extend our poor rates ; and as we have doubled in one year, I see no hindrance in the way of our doubling in another year, or fven withni a shorter period. 420. Wiiat principle do you allude to as the principle now acted upon? — Tha principle of making up the deficiency, or the alleged deficiency of wages, out of the poc: rates. 431. Are you of opinion that the poor rates of that parish would be materially relieved by tlie removal oS any of those parties, provided they emigrated with their own consent? — It would enable us to offer to the weavers, who are now more par- ticularly the objects of our solicitude, means of support ; they come to us now, desiring to have the deficiency of their wages made up, and we are obliged to com> ply with the request, because we know that the wages are insufficient, and we hav« DO means of giving them employment; I look to a well regulated system of Emigration as likely to supply us with those means which v;e feel daily the want of. 423. In what sense do you consider it to supply those means? — I should imagine that upon a weaver apolyin^ for our assistance to make out his wages, if, instead of giving him the small sum he appears to require, we were able to saj'. We can find you a mode of occupation by which your family will be supported, that that would be a sufficient answer to him. If the select vestry saw that they should relieve them- selves from the burthen of a family, of which burthen they can never calculate tht extent, because probably the families will become permanently chargeable, thej would be satisfied to make such exertion. 433. You will understand that the questiocs that are asked upon this subject, witli respect to your parish, are put upon the suppotLtion that an Act of Parliament wer«; passed, relieving the parish permanently from the party who may be assisted to em:grate ? — With that understanding, I should say that a very considerable pecuniarj exertion ifould be made on the part of the parish. 424. What is the average extent of assistance vnich at the present moment ia given to weavers wiiose wages are not sufficient to support their fi^milies, and on what principle is that relief given r — ^There is an understanding, and I may say the principle is recognised, that half-a-crown a head for a family is necessary for their support, consequently a family of six persons should be receiving 15;. a week ; if they do not receive 1 5 5. a week icr their wages as weavers, they consider that that sum should be made up to them out of the poor rates ; this is virtually the principle acted on, and I believe not only in our parish, but in many of the large township! near Manchester. 425. Is that the principle on which relief is generally administered in that parish? — It is the pnnciple which has been recently scted on, and is virtually the principle by which all the committees are guided. 426. How long has the hand-loom weaving been introduced in your parish } — I cannot speak with great certainty, but, I should think, for thirty years it has been the standard occupation of our people, and it has been an occupation in which they have engaged without any limitation but the size of their families, for tliey bad as much tvorl as the looms they set up would enable them to furnish. 427. Has not the invention of the power-loom superseded the use of those hand looms ? — Undoubtedly , it would have superseded them much more rapidly than Jt has done, if the hand-loom weaver were oot enabled to submit to a reductioa of wages, for tlie reasons I have stated. 438. But in so submitting, he has accepted wages which are insufficient to auppcMt him, and he looks to parochial contribution for the remainder of hi* support ^~YeB{ mod, in fact, the competition between the hand loom and tlie power-loom is main- tained out of the poor rates. 439. With reference to all dMse circumstances combined, are you of opinion that the subtraction of a certain number of families from the parish altogether would ba attended with an economy, which would induce the parish, under certain ciicaa- stances, to contribute m tlieir removal? — I am cf that opiuion. 430. For example, you have stated that every family, admitting that they were oat of employment during the whole year, could not be estimated at less than half* a-crown per head ; consequently a family, of « man, a wonmn, and three cbildraa, must be estimated at i2«. 6There is always a list handedon of persons who, _i the judgnient of tne overseers, are unable to pay the rate ; and that list has been ^ery much increased in the last year. 499. If a cottage is inhabited by a pauper, is any rate paid for it at all? — Not if he pauper belongs to the township ; but if he belongs to another township, it is paid Ly the overseer of that township. f 500. If the family were removed, would the landlord of the cottage, supposing be was also a select vestryman, suffer the house to become vacant, or to be pulled )>vn ? — I should conceive that he would be very unwilling to do either. 501. If he were to seek for a tenant, would he prefrr one who had a settlement \a the parish to one that bad not ? — I think decidedly one that had a settlement. 502. What would be his reason for doing so? — That he would be sui'eof his ^eut. 503. What would be the eftect of the parish refusing to pay any rentP—The indlord would proceed to distrain ; and in one or two cases of refusal, a distress ras issued, and an arrangement was made ; I think in one instance X:.ti family went Ito the workhouse, but \n only one. 504. Is it to avoid their going into the workhouse that those rents are paid ? — Ostensibly. ' 505. You said that you conceived that the rate of wages io that parish depended }on the competition between the hand-loom and the power«loom trades ; did you Sean by that to say that the artificers that work in the hand-loom and the power* om trades are incapable of changing from one to the other i'— A hand-loon weaver, iie is situated witli us, has no choice, there is no mode of employment of which be can avail himself. 506. Cannot he become a power-loom weaver ?— In some instances he might. 507. Supposing that either in the hand-loom trade or the power-loom trade there ras a deficiency of labourers, would it not be possible for the labourers in the other ade to. change to that trade in which that deficiency exbted ? — Unquestionably. 508. Then do you conceive that if there were a subtraction of a certfun iramber : families from such a township as that, and a diminution consequently of the nnm- [>er of hands, that the demand for labour occasioned by that would cause a rise of ragss in that trade? — I should not anticipate such a subtraction as would produce hat effect; I can conceive that if the subtraction were carried to a velry great bxtent, there would not be hands enough either for the hand loom or the power- loom, but I do not anticipate any such event as that; if the subtraction were carried to a certain point, so that it became the interest of the weaver to stay at home, you would have no application for emigration. -^ 509. Do you suppose that the number necessary to be subtracted for the purpose hf raising the wages, would be so great that no plan of emigration would reach it? — "fo plan of emigration of which I have ever seen an outline, would appear to me to each to the extent anticipated. 510. Vr'iieii you stated that you conceived that the rate of wages depended upon [ie competition between the two trades, you did not mean to say that if a sufficient number of labourers could be subtracted, the rate of wages would not rise ? —Of course it would ; but it appears to me that they will never rise in the hand-loom * ade, because it is an inferior machine, and will never be resorted to. 511. To the best of ^our knowledge, independently of weaving, are all the other channels of productive industry in your neighbourhood full? — ^They are; I would icarcely say full ; I am no farmer, but I have heard it stated by a very skilful farmer, that most of our farms are underhanded, that it would be a profitable appli- cation of capital to employ an additional number of bands in agriculture ; but our ^arms are small, and ttie pressure of the poor rates has had the contrary effect, and lie consequence is, that the agricultural labourer is almost as much distressed as the veaver. 51 3< Would not increasing the size of the farms, so far from increasing the limber of labourers, be the most certain and direct means of decreasing that num- er?— I am not of that opinion. 513. It has been stated by a (ormer witness, that a very considerable number of ibourers have been forcibly reniwed from Manchester and its neighbourhood in lie last year ; have there been many persons so removed from your neighbourhood ? -We removed in the months of May and June all that we could. 514. To what amount do you suppose that took place? — They were not very numerous, from the caiuet I have stated, that most of our qptufacturing labourers 237- F 3 have The Rev. /. M. Turner. 37 February, i8«7. *TT*W^^ !•' 44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Thr Re*. httve Settlements ; the proportion is more than usually large of those that have J. M. TwrMtr. settlements. -— 515. But there were a certain number removed ? — Yes. '7 February, jig. Supposing the circumstances of the trade in you. part of the country were ^' to become more favourable, do you conceive that that would make room for a fresh influx of people ? — I have not anticipated any improvemeftt so rapid as to require a greater supply than our own population would furnish. 517* Do you suppose that no fresh influx of people took place in the years 1824 and 1825, when the manufactures were in a great state of activity?— The influx to the towns was very considerable ; to the villages by no means so ; in fact the tide flowed from the villages to the towns. 518. Are you of opinion that the influx into the towns, of fresh labourers, pro- duces no competition with the labourers in the villages ?— I consider that the state of the manufacturing interests, at the period referred to, was a very anomalous state; it was a state produced by many artificial causes, and I imagine that any remarks applicable to that period would not be generally applicable. 519. Judging from what has passed, if a demand from whatever cause did arise, so as to give a greater activity to the manu&cture than now exists, would not that circumstance make room for a great influx of the population ? — Clearly. > 5ao. In the event of a pericMd of distress again recurring, or difliculty in the em- ployment of labourers, in what situation would those persons be again placed ? — I imagine that those who had not a legal settlement would be treated as they have been treated in the last eighteen months ; those that had a settlement would of course fall, as they have now fallen, upon the poor rates. 521. Do you not think there would be an indisposition upon the part of the parish to allow fresh persons to obtain legal settlements ? — Clearly ; we are aware that such indisposition exists in all cases. 532. After the experience of last year, are you not of opinion that every means will be talien to prevent legal settlements being gained? — I conceive the most scru- pulous jealousy will be exercised. , 533. What are the means which you expect will be used to prevent settlements being gained? — Taking care that the tenements are under the value of 10/. 524. Can you prevent persons from taking apprentices ? — We cannot. ■ 525. You have stated, that if a certain number of families were provided for by emigration, it would tend to diminish the poor rates; you have also stated, that you think that no landlord who has a cottage would suffer it to be either pulled down or to remain vacant, and that it is decidedly the interest of such landlord to let it to a pauper rather than to a person that is not a pauper ; will you state, under those circumstances, in what way you think that the providing for a certain number of families by emigration could lead to a diminution of the poor rates ? — I think I have not stated that it is for the interest of the landlord that his tenant should be a pauper, but that he should be a person having a legal settlement, whether a pauper or not. 526. Will you state in what way you think the emigration of a certain DUmbw .of families would be likely to lead to a reduction of the poor rate ? — It appears to me that our case at the present is this; a weaver comes to us with three children, he says, that he is unable to support himself, and accordingly we make him an allowance ; he comes the week following, and says that he is expecting a further reduction of wages ; we see no limit to wis, and in anticipation of the consequence^ we are ready to make a considerable effort, provided it be well understood Uiat that effort shall be a beneficial one. 527. How is it to be beneficial ?— If you require from us a less actual outlay than we expect a family will cost us during the year. 528. You have stated that you think the emigration of a certain number of families would tend to diminish the total charge upon the parish ; in order to prove that, you must show that the places of those that were withdrawn would not be supplied by others equally chargeable ; will you state how you consider the relief would occur? — It appears to me that the relief would occur by persons being removed that have a legal settlement, upon the expectation that their places would be supplied, if supplied at all, by persons not having a legal settlement 529. Is not the master manufacturer more interested in multiplying the number /f labourers, than he is in keeping down the poor rate ?-— Undoubtedly he is. 530. If that parish, having relieved itself in the first instance from itssuper- abundaut population, were then to decide that they would give no relief to any man except ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 45 1817. except he were wholly employed by the parish, would not that defeat the object of The IUt. the master pmnufacturers, whsse interest it is to keep down the price of wages by J. M. Twmt. crowding the parish with a redondant population ?--Such a regulation as that would ^ ^ '-' be highly desirable, that in no case should they make up the deficiency of wages, '7 February, but that relief should be given only in return for employment. 531. Have the masistrotes ever interfered to prevent this custom of paying wages out of the poor rates ?-— Never, in any instance that has come to my knowledge. .532. You have stated that the average rate of relief combined with wages, is lialf-a-crown a head ; therefore a man and his wife and three children would receive Via. 6d. a week, partly in wages and partly out of the poor rates? — Yes. 533. What is the average rate of wages of agricultural labour in your parish ? — The usual rate of a farm servant is 6«. a week, with his board for six days, or from 14. sd.. to as. a. dky ; a very good labourer can earn a s. ; but a great proportion of our agricultural labour is performed by piece-work. 534. Do persona employed at piece-work gun more than ia«. a week.' — No, I imagine that 2«. is a fair return for the labour of a skilful hand. 5:i5< Then the manufacturer that gets part of his wages out of the poor rate and part from his labour, is better paid than the day-labourer that is maintained entirely bv his own labour ? — He would be, according to the scale stated. - 536. The object of the emiiratiou would be to relieve the hand-loom weavers ? — That is the specific object I have in view with regard to my own parish. 537. Does the practice of assisting the wages of the artisan take place in any other I trade than that of hand-loom weaving? — Dunns the period of difficulty it was the practice to work what ii> called short time, that is, the nominal wages being kept at the rate at which they were before the difficulty commenced ; the time during which the persons received employment was lessened, either by the ■ subtraction of a portion of each day, or by the omission of some days in the week ; that was considered a fair ground of appeal for the assistance of the select vestry. The man said, My nominu wages are 15*. a week, but I have worked only three days, consequently 1 have earned only y s. 6d., and therefore you must make it up. 538. Are you of opinion, with reference, to the practice of fining settlemen', in former times, that more power will be found of resisting the mtroduction of fresh parishioners, or the contrary? — I have contemplated that the relief afforded would be greater than the evil which would occur on the other side. 539. You have stated that the relief of the hand-loom weavers will press more and more upon your parish ; that as long as you contbue to make up the deficiency to those persons in uie amount of Mia^ea they receive to what is necessary for their subsistence, there will be a tendency m the manufacturers to decrease the amount of wages they pay to them ? — I think so. 540. Therefore you are of opinion that those hand-loom weavers being removed, they cannot be succeeded by other hand-loom weavers, for their trade will be destroyed, or by any other class of men who will press so heavily upon the pariah ; is not that what you anticipate? — ^Tbat is what I anticipate. 541. And therefore it is your wish to remove those hand-loom weavers? — Con- sidering theirs to be a case of such difficulty and hardship that it is not likely that the circumstances under which they are placed will be revived with respect to any other class of men. 543, You stated that some strangers had lately come to your parish, seeking labour? — They have. 543. What had been the employment of those persons? — We are only seven, miles from Macclesfield ; perhaps the Committee are aware that advertisements were scattered very widely in the beginning of last .year, announcing a demand for 5,000 weavers, and the consequence was, that there was a gathering of every person that could handle a shuttle, from every part of the kingdom, to our nei|^- bourbood. 544. Do you not think that there are a great many persons who employ hand- loom weavers, from their incapacity to become proprietors of power-looms, who will continue so to do ? — I imarane that there must be many persons in that situa- tion; but I conceive they willed it expedient to transfer their capital to some other mode of nuinufacturing industry; they never can maintain a competition with a less useful machine against a more useful machine. 545* As long as they do, is it not their direct interest to have the wages of the luNidim weavers amiS to the spinners ? — I am not aware of any other trade in which it has been necessary to have recourse to that. 562. Supposing tlie wa^s in the povrer-loom trade were very low, is thereany reason why the same principle should not be applied to it? — None whatever. 565. Then the only reason it has not been applied in that cose is, that the wages in the pov/er-loom trade have been sufficient for the support of a family upon the itnxa ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 47 n not awaro (SBTins you have laid down I have been adequate -I can imagine no other reason than that the wages with difference 565. Supposing a certain quantity of goods were to be manufactured, how many labourers would it take to manufecture it with the power-loom, as compared with the hand loom? — I am not prepared to state that; but if the master manufacturer gives out a certain quantity of yarn to be woven by twenty different weavers, he gets twenty different qualities of clotli, whereas if he puts it into a power-loom, it is ajl of precisely the same quality. 566. From your knowledge of the state of your parish, do you believe thai the owners of the land would consent to mortgage for a term of years the poor rate, for the specific purpose of emigration ? — I do not see that the owner of the land has any thing to do with it. 567. Do you think that those persons who by law are entrusted with the appro- priation of the parochial rate, would be disposed to charge that rate, under certain conditions, for the purposes of emigration ? — I think they would. 568. Do you think the landlords would be disposed to object to it ? — I do not se« how tlie landlord could interfere in it fi6g. Has the landlord any interest in interfering ? — I think not. 570. May not the occupier who votes in the select vestry for this prospective charge of ten years, quit his tenement in the course of six nionths, and leave that charge to be borne by others ? — Under the present state of the law, such a pro« spective arrangement would be impossible ; we cannot mortgage the rates for ten years. . 571. But if, in consequence of this arrangement, he leaves his land with a less annual chaise from the rate than the present charge, will not the landlord be materially benefited by it ? — I should conceive so.. 572. Is not this the result, that it is possible that the present charge piay last only six months, and under the cou^ proposed there will be a fixed morl^ge payable for ten years to come ? — In many cases that might be the result '573. Are the individuals comprising the select vestry principally renters of land, or landowners? — Renters of land, principally. Tbt Rtv. J. M. Turntr. 37 February, 1817. Major Thomas Moodtf, again called in ; and Examined. 574. YOU have lately been to the parish of Shipley, ia Sussex ? — Yes, I have. 575. Had you an opportunity of examining in minute detail, into the circum« stances of that parish ? — Yes, I had, so far as the assistance I received from the Member for the county, Mr. Walter Burrell, directing certain overseers of that parish, and some farmers, to attend and answer such questions as I might put to them. 576. What is the amount of the populati jn in the parish ? — Of the present popu- lation I could not get an accurate statement, but from the last returns made to Parliament, the population was 1,159 persons. 57';. What is the estimated rental of that parish ? — The estimated rental of the parish h 2,599/. 5». 5;urtion to the space, to cultivate it. 581. Of those 233 labourers you have last mentioned, what proportion were considered, by the inhabitants of tlie parish generally, as forming in point of fact an excess beyond the labour required in that parish ? — According to tlie testimony of Mr. Richard iNlartin, one of the employers, and M'liich was agreed to by p.II the others, both in the parish of Shipley and the neighbouring one, it was, that: a man that held a rental of 1 00 /. being obliged by those means to employ nine of those people, he was over-handed to the amount of three persons at least. 582. That out of the nine he employed, he could have employed six with advantage, and that the other three vtt. i more than he wanted ? — Yes ; and the opinion of the whole of the Shipley farmers was, tliut in consequence of t.\cir being obliged to employ this excess of labour, they adopted a course of crops for which their land was not suited. 583. Will you describe that course of crops? — First, fallow ; second, wheat; third, cats ; fourth, grass seed. 584. Why were exhausting crops necessary? — To employ the people ; they draw a great quantity of lime, and make compost heaps, and forced a course of'^ white crops of wheat and oats twice in four years, otherwise, in tiieir opinion, they woul not have been nble to pay their rales. 585. You have stated, that the sum of 2,314/. wa.<« paid in poor rates ; have you the means of informing the Committee of the general details of the appropriation of that sum ? — I have not, beyond what I have stated ; but what I have given was from books which will supply the details. 586. The excess of labour, with respect to those 233 labourers, is to be con- sidered as indepcr aniiuiii, Liit unalt'o to pay rate without the aid of the parish. 5yi. Did the parish pay it? — Yes. 59a. What did they iiitoriii you was the expense per annum at which they would estimate a man, a woman, and three cliiklren, absolutely unemployed''' — I do not recollect that there was a particular sum, but the cx|)en8eof it has been already de- tailed ; and they were very willing, they said, to pay any sum less than that, in order to have tiiose removed whose services were not wanted. 593. Was there u select vestry in this parish ?— I do not know. 594. Did you see the overseers of this parish ? — Yes. ,')05. Were they aware that the practice of paying wages out of the rates, it illegal ? — I do not know whether they were so informed. .596. Are there many gentlemen residing in this parish? — It appears to me that there are none actually resident. ^97. Did you understand that that parish was |)cculiar, or did you undcrstani. that the adjoming parishes were very much in the same way? — The next parish was much in the same way, and I understood was general in what is called the Wealds of Sussex ; at least so it appeared to me, from the information I had. 598. Wiiat was the class of owners of land in that parish? — They are gentlemen, as I apprehend. The Brother of the Member for the County is one, and the Member iiimsclf, I believe, is another ; I do not know any other individually. 599. Had you any opportunity of knowinu their sentiments respecting the circum- stances of the parish?— Yes; Mr. Walter fiurrell returned to his house when those examinations were gone through, and lie saw the overseer of one of the parishes after I had done with him. I do not know what conversation passed between him and these persons. Coo. Are there many owners in this parish, either residing or nou>resident? — I do not know positively, but I believe none. 601. You were understood to state, that the greater the number of children that a labourer had, the greater was the allowance he received } — Yes. 602. What did a young unmarried man, without a family, get ? — I suppose he would not get more than io«. a week, the value of his labour. 603. Would not he get less than io.t. ? — No, I apprehend not as average wages, unless on the parish list, when perhaps it would be 9 .s. 604. What would a married man with three children get ? — He would get an extra shilling for each child beyond that number, and the usual wages when he had two or three ; I am not certain as to the number. 605. Did you understand that no employment could be found in any neighbouring parish for those persons ? — So I understood, though some resided in neighbouring parishes, yet drew relief from Shipley. 606. Did not they consider that they were attached to the spot without any hope whatever of being able to provide for them, otlierwise than by charity? — Certainly ; and the rate payers are willing to pay any expense less than that which they are now paying, in order to get rid of them. 607. Arc there any paupers resident in the parish without settlements, or have tliey all settlements ? — Some of them do not reside in the parish, but yet derive relief from the parish, that have settlements in the parish. Ttie rate payers were very auxious tliat a system of destruction of cottages should follow the removal of paupers. * 608. Do tlte familif^ live in sefiarute cottages ? — No, many of them have now Sot into one cotta^; ii n-3 stated to me, that forty years ago a cottage that only eld a man and hu wife and three children, ifow contains five families, consisting of nineteen persons. 609. Has the number of cottages increased within the last ft >v years ? — I under- stand it has ; but an increase of population had still taken place by putting more people into one cottage than there had been before. bio. Are any rents paid out of the poor rates?— Yes, rents of cottages, to the amount of 45/. 61 1. What does that average for each cottage by the year ? — I do not know the number of cottages, but I understood there were forty-nine persons whose rents were paid by the parish. Cl 2. Are the cottager^ the property of the owners of the soil ? — I presume so, bqt I am not certain. , ?37- G 613. You Thumtt Moody. 1^ Tthruitry, 1817, 30 MINUTES OF FA'IDENCE UEFOKE SELECT COMMITTEE Miijiir 17 F«bru«ry, il«7. 613. You have stated that .233 pcritons were distributed among the iundholdcrs in this pariah, in the proportion of iiiiio peritons to every lun/, of rent; do you hap|)cn to knr^w if Uwuv. peritons hired any Ncrvanta, independently of those people who were f') 'brcibly put upon them ? — During; the harvest I should sup|K)se they must have hired other persons, but I cannot say what happened at otiier times of the year. Some persons held farms in the parish who did not live in it, such must have confidential servants. 614. Did you tnake any inquiries as to the willingness of the occupiers or of the owners in this parish, to mortgage for a definite period the pour rates of the parish, to rase a sum of money for the purpose ot emigrating u portion of the suiplus popu- lation of the parish ? — So fur us regards the owners uf the puriMJi I had not an opportunity ot seeing uny one, except Mr. Walter Burrcll ; the other people that I saw were farmers, and they were all yetf willing. 61,'',. Do the fanners hold under leases for a term of years, or are they tenants at will ?— I understood that they were tenants at will in general. 616. What h the general currency of their leases when under that tenure ? — I do not know precisely. 617. Did you make any inquiry into the circumstances of an^ other parish in SiiKscx ? — Only the purinhes of Shipley and West Grinstead, which adjoin to one unutlier. John Manirll, F.tq. ill. 1 M,irrh, J wit, I* die Martii, 1897' John Mojmell, Lsq. a Member of the Committee ; Examine -(. 618. HAVE you had an opportunity of seeing the evidence givei. by Mr. Campbell, Mr. Drumniond, and Mr. Kennedy f — '1 have. 619. Do you generally agree in the statements made by tliosc gentlemen 1 -A* far as I have examined them, I concur in them. 620. Mow many petitions have you had to present from that part of the country upon the subject ol cmigrutionr — Nine. 62 1 . Do those relate to the county of Renfrew exclusively ?— I think tliey arc all from tlie county of llenfrew ; one is from Irish settlers in it. 632. You cannot speak particularly as to the situation of the population in Lanark- shire ? — No ; but from conversation, I believe it to be very similar to tliat of the county of Renfrew. 623. Is Lanarkshire as populous a county as Renfrewshire ? — Not in proportion to its extent, I have reason to believe, 634. But altogether there is as large a number of inhabitants in Lanarkshire as in Renfrewshire ? — I should think larger. 62,5. Do you therefore conceive tliat there is as large a number of persons in a situation of distress in Lanarkshire as in Renfrewshire?— I could not exactly speak to that fact. 636. Do you happen to know whether or not the unemployed persons in Lanark- shire are hand-loom weavers ; which are the class of persons who ore unemployed in Renfrewshire ?— I believe almost entirely; because when the weavers experience a difficulty in finding employment in their own trade, they have recourse to country labour, and thereby cause dbtress amongst the labourers; but it originates in the weaving trade. 627. From your general impression upon the subject, are you of opinion that any other remedy presents itself for improving the condition of those persons out of employment in Renfrewshire, than that of emigration ?— I think tmi^tion will be essentially necessary to commence any effectual remedy. 628. Do you discover any remedies for the distress which has of late prevailed in the district of country of which you have been speaking? — I think the recurrence of a similar distress amons the monufiicturing popidatioD might be greatly diminislied, if not altogether removeo. 629. By what means ^ — I think if the persons who give employment to labourers, and the persons in whose houses they reside, were made in some degree responsible that the persons employed and housed by them were not to be left so exclu^vely chargeable to the parish, that that would go a great way to prevent the recurrence of the distress which now prevails in country parishes. 630. If a large proportion of the present distressed persons were removed firom the district of country to which you allude, do you discover any other mMns by which ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 51 which that gup might he prevented from hcing luppiied by |M.'rsona from utliur |Mrt« of the country, in tlie event of a bctliT ntate of employment nri»in^ ? — In uddilion to what I have already said, I think that giving some |)ower of removal to assist parishes to which this surplus population usually (lows, would contribute to prevent the settlement of an unduu population in those districts. It is the custom for iwrsons w ho have contracts to make roads, ditches and canals, and for all persons who aro establishing manufactures, not only to encourage the Irinh to come, but there have been cases stated, where they have sent advertiiementa to Ireland, requesting the population to come, on the prospect of a great supply of woik, and the consequence is, that a great quantity of Irish come, who settle as wotivcrs, liecauM there is no law of apprenticeship now which fetters tiioin in adopting that trade as soon as their employer finishes his contract or has no employment 63 1 . In what manner do those people, j6 introduced, ga^i |)crmanent settlements ? — Uy residing three years without receiving charity; but tliey frequently l)eg in the parish ac^oinmg, which saves tliem from the operation of that law ; they Send also their wives and children to beg there. 63 a. Your father is one of the largest proprietors in the neighbourhood of Glasgow; has he contributed largely of late to the relief of the poor in that neighbourhood ?— Ho has. 633. Do you conceive that he, and other proprietors situated as he is, would lend any cmsiderable Assistance for the removal of any portion of the surplus population that now exists in that neighbourhood ? — I conceive that he might contribute to aid persons to emigrate, provided he saw that by so doing he would bo protected from a new accuiuubtion of labour for which there is no demand. 634. Would he be prepared to give that money, or to lend it? — I cannot speak exactly to that, but I conceive that he might be disposed to do either, according to tlie recommendation of the Committee, and the nature and extent of that protection ; but I speak entirely from conjecture. 635. Do you think that accumulation of labour could be prevented ? — I think that it might in a great measure be prevented. 636. Will you have the goodness to state in what manner you think it might bo prevented ? — I think if the persons who now endeavour to introduce labourers for the purpose of lowering the rate of wages should i'vd the burden of supporting unemployed labourers who become settlers, that th* probably would rather give a higher rate of wages to the population they now have, than seek for a foreign population for the purpose of reducing the wages. JuAn MunttU, Kiq. -J I M »'•'>>, ltl(7. Mr. Wi^mn Spencer Northhouse, of the London Free Press Netfspaper, late of Glasgow, called in ; and Examined. 637. YOU aie authorixed, on the part of certain Emigration Societies in Scotland, to Uy Uieir case before thij Committee ? — I am. 638. Will you state the names of the societies so authorizing you?— For the county of Renfrew : the Paisley Friendly Emigration Society ; the Paisley Caledo- nian Emigmtioii Society, N* 1; the Paisley Canadian Emigration Society; the Bnrrheoid and NeOstoo £migration 3ociety ; the PaisW and Suburbs Emigration Societv ; tbe Eldisnlie Emigrition So<.'iety; the Paisley Caledonian Emigration So- ciety, N* a; the Paisley Fiwndly Erdisration Society; the Lochwinnock Emigra- tion Society, and tbe Paisley Broomlands Emigration Society. I am also authorized by the fbUowing Emigration Societies irt Lanarkshire : the Glasgow St. George's Parish Societies, N* 1 and a; the Barony Middle Ward Society; the East liarony Society; the Parkhead Society; the North Quarter Society; the Calton Society^ N* 1; the Calton Clyde-street Society; the Underston Society; the Gorbais So- ciety; theTiadcstonlMciety; the College Parish Society; the Bell-street Society ; the Old Monkland Society; the Rutherglen Society ; the Bridgeton Society; the Camlachie Society; the Govan Society; Uie St. John's Parish Society; the Spring- bum Society; the Campsie Society; the Kirkintilloch Society, and the Eaglesham Society. '' 639. What is the aggregate number of persons constituting those societies ? — The societies in Renfrewshire comprise 634 families, and 3,364 individuals ; the societies in Lanarkshire comprise 1,618 families; I do not know the number of individuals ; if they were taken in the same 'proportion as those in Renfrewshire, it woujd be about 8,500 individuals. 640. Is the Glasgow Emigration Society one of those you represent? — No. i37' G a 641. Are Mr. rr. S. Korthkoutt. Mr, W. S. NorHkouit. t I I Miircb, 1827. 52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 641 . Are there any other emigration societies in that part of the country, besides those you have mentioned ?^— I believe there may be a few, but there are only a few. 64a. Are the greater part of the individuals composing those societies, hand- loom weavers ? — Nearly the whole of the societies I have mentioned are hand- loom weavers ; I believe the Glasgow Society "s composed of cotton-spinners principally, and persons who are in rather better circumstances than the miserable mdividuals I represent. 643. Do you consider the greater part of the persons composins; those societies to he at the present moment in a state of want and destitution, arising from the less demand whicii exists for their labour ? — Not so much from a less demand for their labour, as from the inadequate payment of their labour ; I believe the demand i» much better now than it vas formerly ; there are not many individuals at present out of work) 644. What is tiie cause to which the low rate of wages is to be attributed under circumstances of an improved demand?- -Because the demniid is not yet sufficient to employ the whole of the hands ; I suppose tiierc arc from 500 tu 600 at least, at present out of employment; formerly I believe there were that number of thousands. 645. To what county do you allude ? — To both Renfrewshire and Lanarkshire. 646. Have you reason to suppose that there is any chance of such an improve- ment in the trade, as to employ, at adequate waj;es, the individuals who belong to that trader — It is utterly impossible ui>.dcr any circumstances: machinery ha» already superseded i^ a very (;>-;:at extent the hand-loom weavers, and it continues to improve and to be appropiiated to other fiibrics than those to which it has been hitherto appropriated ; and I cui mention as a fact, that even with the excessive demand occasioned by tlie |)eculiar circumstances of last year, when there was more than double the quantity made than could be sold, and every market in the world was glutted, still the whole of the weavers were not employed, and their wages continued to decrease. 647. Are you of opinion that if those weavers who are now in the situation of being redundant workmen were to be removed, that machinery would increase beyond what at present foists, supposing there were a great increase of demand for the article ? —I have not the least doubt of machinery mcreasing. 648. Do you not therefore, in point of fact, consider that machinery is at thi» moment kept in some measure in abeyance by the circumstance of there being that redundant population out of employment ? — To a certain extent it is; but machinery must always govern the wages of manual labour. 649. Under those circumstances you do not consider that any injury would accrue to the capitalist, from the abstraction of that portion of the population which may be considered as entirely redundant? — Great benefit must accrue to the capitalist, as t>>e capitalist at present, from mere feelings of humanity, has to do much towards the sustenance of those persons whom he cannot employ. 6.50. Although you have stated the generality of persons belonging to those sociKiies to be at this moment in a condition of great poverty and distress, arising from the lownesj of their wages, are you not of opinion that the removal of a com- paratively iumW proportion of them, as compared with the whole, would have the effect of improving the condition of the remainder, so as to put them io a much better situation? — Decidedly so, and in a far greater ratio than tlie mere number that is taken away. 6.51. Have the members of those societies connexions in the North American provinces ? — Ma ly of them have connexions. 652. In any particular province? — I am not aware exactly of the particular province, they are distributed pretty generally through Upper Canada ; there are several locations. I have so.ne letters in my possession now, and many letters may be laid before the Committee, in which they say that they are exceedingly desirous that their friends in I^anarkshire and Renfrewshire should join them. 653. Has not the condition of those hand-loom weavers been deteriorating during the |)eriou in which machinery has been progressively introduced in weaving? — I do not consider that machinery is the cause of the deterioration of those persons ; it is one among many causes that have produced that deterioration. ^54. Is it not the fact, that the work that those persons would execute can be executed by machinery in a much cheaper and equally effectual manner? — Certainly. 655. Undet ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 53 I March, 18J7. rth American 655. Under those circumstances, provided that the circumstances of society are Mr, Buch that there is no demand for the labour of those persons in any other trade or "'• *• Nurthhmiie. occupation, does not it necessarily follow, that the introduction of that machinery must place them in a state of destitution and want ? — I think machinery is not the primary cause of the destitution of those persons, although it is one of the peculiar circumstances that promoted that destitution ; in one sense, inact^inery has occasioned a greater demand for labour, inasmuch as it has made the goodscon- siderably cheaper, but not in proportion to the persons whom it has thrown out of employment. 656. Is it not the fact, however, that the existence of machinery will of necessity prevent those people pursuing with advantage the trade to which they were brought up? — Most assuredly it will govern the rate of their wages. 657. Are those people in general without the means, on their own part, of con- tributing towards the expense of their emigration r — So far are they from possessing any means, that fur a considerable length of time many of them, contra rji to their prmciplcs, feelings and habits, have been obliged to receive contributions from the relief committees; they were, I believe, in a great measure supported by the Metropolitan Relief Committee, and by donations at home, and they are in such a state of absolute destitution, that many of them have had their articles of house- hold furniture, and their very beds, pawned at the, pawnbrokers, and they have been obliged to be redeemed by this relief society ; and in addition, nearly the whole of them have received notices to quit. One poor woman, after being two days without food, was delivered of a child in that condition, having nothing but water to subsist u|K)n. Meetings of the landlords of their houses have taken place in various parts, and the landlords have come to the resolution not to allow them to remain any longer than next Whitsunday ; they have already seized many of their looms, and sold them by public auction ; and they have stated as a reason for adopting that course, that they (the landlords) are positively giving their property to men who ought to be supported, either by the government or by the manufacturers who employ them. There have been public meetings of the landlords ; one landlord stated the fact, tiiat he had about 1 60 weavers at a village called Springburn ; I believe it to be a fact, that he has not received a proportion of 2s. in the [>ound for his rents for the last 1 8 months. I know of another who has a mortgage upon his property at i-3d part of its supposed value, for which he pays 70/. a year interest, and he has not received 20/. fur the last 18 months. 658. Are you a^vare that the distresses of that pavt of the country have been considerably mitigated by liberal subscriptions, whic'i have been transmitted by the London Relief Committee in aid of tliem ?— I have no doubt that the immediate distresses of the people are mitigated, but it required more than present and uncertain charity to give any thing like consolation to the people. 65(1. Supposing no increased demand to take place for the protlucts of the hand- loom weavers, so as to raise their wages, and that the relief transmitted from this country were to cease, would not (me of these two consequences necessarily arise, either that the distress of those parties would be aggravated in a dreadful degree, or that the maintenance of them, and the support of them, would fall upon the district to which tliey belong ? — If there were no increased demand, the people would starve! to death. 660. In the case of a man, a woman, and three children (taking that as the ratio of a family) utterly without means of employment, that is, for whose services no real demand exists, who may be employed out of charity, but not with a view to any beneficial result, and who consequenay arc left entirely to be maintained by a con- tribution of some sort or other ; what is the lowest estimate per head at which you can calculate the subsistence of thuse persons per annum? — I would say the lowest estimate per head of the subsistence of five persons, would be about 30«.; that would be fur the whole about 13/. per annum for tlie whole family. 661. You consider therefore, the proposition being that they are utterly without employment, that thejr can be maintained in existence for 13/. pfer annum? — I do j many have been sustained for less. , 602. What is the total expense which is incurred in respect ol a family of five persons, including not only subsistence, but every otlier expense^ — I should think that a family of five persons have been in many instances sustained at less than s s. a week, without charity ; some even at less than 4*. a week. 663. Do you mean including rent and clothing? — I cannot say that they have paid for any rent or clothing. 837. G 3 664. At I Marrlf, 1837. 54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BErORE SELECT C01VTMITTEE Mr. 664. At what amount should you estimate the other necessary expenses for such IF. S. Niiri/ihoust. a family ? — I think clothing for a poor family, such as they generally wear, might be got for about 2 1, pe:' annum ; I think the rent would amount to 1 s. (id. per week, which would be about 4/. per annum ; and I Uiink fuel, with light, would at least amount to i ». per week, making 2/. 1 2«. per annum. 665. Would not, therefore, the calculation stand thus: 13/. for food, 2/. for clothing, '^2 /. 12«. for firing and candles, and 4/. for lodging; making altogether 31 /. ia«. as the expense absolutely necessary to be incurred, from some quarter or other, in the preservation and subsistence of a family consisting of a man, a woman, and three children, who, by the terms of the proposition, are altogether out of em- ployment during the year i — I do. 066. Do you not know, or have you not heard, of families who subsist upon less tbu) Uiat sum?— Many; but they have been partly sustuned by charity. 667. You have stated to the Committee, that on Wiiitaunday next a considerable number of weavers will be dispossessed of their habitations ; do you know what is to become of those persons under those circumstances ? — I know wiiat their own fcqlings are; the whole of them depend upon the legislature sending them out of the country ; and if the legislature does not, they will have to build a temporary residence with what materials they can get in the public greens, and take such food as they can procure by force, I presume, from those that nave a surplus quantity. 668. What has been the cause, according to your judgment, of the extraordinary patience which those persons have exercised in this their bitter distress? — ^The hope of emigration. 669. You attribute their patience to no other cause? — ^I know it has no other cause; I know that in many instances I myself have been obliged to give them every encouragement that I could conscientiously give them, in order to prevent their breaking out into absolute riot. 670. Has not the poverty and misery of the population in some of the manufoc* turing districts about Glasgow and Paisley, been as great as can well be imagined? — I never could, until I had seen it, imagine the possibility of such distress ; it has been the bare tenuity of life, if I ;nay use the phrase. I have no hesitation in say- ing, that the poor people themselves have sullicient mind not to ascribe the evils tliey have endured to machinery, but to taxation v eighing upon labour, and restric- tions preventing markets. 671. Are you of opinion, under all the circumstances, that these evils, unlike others, have no capacity in themselves to cure themselves ? — They have not ; I am rather of opinion, that where distress exists to a very great d gree, population goes on increasing ; inasmuch as the unfortunate bein^ become rccklcu and desperate, anil marry without thought. 672. What is the peculiar species of , manufacture which a hand-loom weaver follows in that district r — Principally book muslins, and a variety of fabrics of a coarser and a finer nature, which I cannot describe, not being in the trade. 673. Has there not been, from various causes, a diminutiop in the last year of the demand for that particular branch of manufacture ? — I should think in coose- quence, in some degree, of the alteration of the paper currency, there wa^ a con- siderable diminution in the making of those goods. 674. Did you ever hear of a diminution in tlie exportation of book muslins? — There must be a great diminution jn exportation, when the means oiT speculation are taken away from the parUes. ,675. You consider that diminution in exportation to be one cause of the distress that exists?— It is one of the immediate causes ; I look upon the mediate ^uses to be other circumstances, which I am not called upon to state. 676. Have you any knowledge as to the state of those parties now in Canada ? — I have ; I know that many that went over to Canada in a state of ut;£r destitution in 1820, are now in a state of comparative happiness; many of them have written to tlieir friends desirous of coining over, tellbg them that they certainly encountered {treat hardships for 18 or 2U months, but that after that time thev found that their situation got progressively better, and that they would gladly endure five times the amount of hardship, in onler to be placed in the situbtion in which they iiow are. 677. Have you any knowledge na to the expense of conveyinj? thost people to Canada, and cJ locating them tiiere? — I have; I believe that in the /ear 1820, about 700/. was paid to a vessel, at the rate of about 4/. cr 5/. per head' including provisions, and I know that at tliat time another vessel might have been got for ^bcut 400/., little more than 50 percent upon the sum ; and 1 am sore if it were left to ON EMIOR/.TION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM:' 1827. 5: I, a woman, to the intended emigrants themselves, they would find the means of going upon a far more economical plan than other persons could do for them, and for this reason, that the whole of the Scotch emigrants contemplate the repayment of any money that may be advanced for their use by Parliament, and would of course expend as little as they could. 678. On what grounds do they feel that confidence of being enabled to repay the sums advanced ? — Ff^- the evidence they have of the accumulating wealth of those who have already gon>' out ; and 1 may say the Scotch poor are as remarkable for their honesty as for any feeling by which they are characterised. 679. Do you know of any instances in which |)ersons have been enabled to repay any sums that may have been ndvanced for the purpose of their emigration ? — I do not know that it has ever been tried upon that plan. 680. Then it is presumed you are of opinion that the cheapest mode of emigratiog those persons, would be to supply them with some funds, and to leave the rest to then) ?— For greater safety, and likewise to remove certain objections in 8onie<)aarter9 as to their leaving Canada for the United States, I should recommend that the government did not give them any money, but establish in the different towns the means of giving them rations of food, either weekly or oraothly, until they were enabled to sup^y themselves. 681 . Have you had an opportunity of reading the Evidence that was given before the Committee on Emigration in the last year?— I have. 682. Have you read the verr minute detail that is given of the manner in which the emigrants were settled in 1 823 and 1 825 ? — I have. 683. Have you any reason to know whether any of those persons belonging to tho^e emigration societies, have seen that Report? — I believe many of them have eeen it 684. Are you to be understood to stbte that they «>re fully prepared to repay at jthe earliest period compatible with their means, that is, to pay interest redeemable at will, for any money which may be advanced for their location, upon the cheapest principle on which it can be carried into effect? — I am ready on their part to state, that not only will they enter into any single bond for that purpose, but they will enter into joint and several bonds for each other, and they will get their friends also in Canada, who have expressed their willingness to do so, to enter into joint and several bonds with them for the repayment of the money daat would be advanced. 685. Is it not true that those men, notwithstanding their miseries, have very just ideas in general with respect to the effects of machinery ? — They have generally just ideas as to the effects of machinery ; their misery has m some instances blinded their views respecting machinery, as it has done in other parts of the country, but they getierally '..scribe their distress to other causes. 686. Are you not of opinion, from what you know of the western part of Scotland, that had it not b'jen for the application of charity from Uie various sources frou whence it has been derived, a poftion of the population must have perished ?— I know that a portion of the population must have perished, had it not been for that chaklty; and I know that those who have accepted of that charity, have gone with the feeling of almost plunging their hands into the fire to save their lives. 68;. You have stated, that a great portion of the persons who are now employed as handi'loom weavers are in a state of distress; v.iat are the wages of those persons who are now employed? — It is according to ni# peculiar fabric upon which they are employed; on the coarser fabrics, the utmost extent of their wages I take to be about 3t,6d. per week, working sixteen hours per day. 688. What will a fiunily of five persons earn in a week, supposing them to con* sist oT a nun, a womtji, and three children of the ages of fourteen, dghtand three ?— The children 01 the ages of fourteen and eight would be employed, and the man and woman would be employed ; by their combined exertions they might earn about St. 6 d. per week at the coarser fabrics. 6 89. You appear to anticipate a further employment of those pers'aas who are now but of employment ; if the whole should be employed, do you conceive that thejmsentmte.of wages will continue? — I do not antid)^ a further increase; I think the present increase is the mere revulsion of the tide, and will not last; I anticipate a decrease of the present employment) I think that employment has arrived nei^ its maximum. 690. Do you coasider that the average earnings of the persons composing those societies whost wmes yoo have mentionefl, amount tb about 5*. 6d. a week for 237> G 4 a family Mr. S. Nurtkhomte, Miirch, i8 Have you formed any definite opinion with reference to the aggregate num- ber of the parties applying for emigration, as to the number of persons, the renioval of whom would tend inktantaneously so to improve the condition of the remainder, as to femove the ^at causes of distress ? — I do not think it would remove the causes of distress ; as to improving the condition of the poor people, I think that were i.ooo 237. • 11 2 families Mr. rr. 6'. Nurtk/iouie. 1 Miircb, 1817. ft Mr. W. S. NortMouit. >■ t I March, 1847. Ho MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE families removed only at a very trifling expense, it would considerably better the remainder. 736. You mean 1 ,)00 families, consisting of iooo persons ?- -Yes. 737. Have you ever visited Ireland ? — I have. , 738. However great the distress may be at Glasgow, or however redundant may be the population in its neighbourhood, is not the distress in Irct ind, and the re- dundant population in Irelana, greater? — I have not been in the uiuth of Ireland, I have only been in the north of Ireland, where the situation of th3 people is very similar to the situation of the people in Glasgow. 739. If by the abstraction of 1,000 families f'-om th» neighbourhood of Glasgow, the condition of the remainder of tlie working piipulation wits improved by a rise in wages, have you any doubt, the state of Ireland remaining the same, that that vacuum would be instantly filled up from that quarter ?— 1 have much doubt that the vacuum would be instantly filled up from timt qmi'ter, because the rate of wages must be so low, for some time to come, as to offer little temptation even to an Irish- man to come over. 740. Arc not the facilities of communication between Ireland and Glasgow rapidly increasing? — They are. 741 . What is the pn-sctit rate of a passage from Ireland to Glasgow ' — A steerage passage, I believe, they very frequently get for about two or three shillings, from Belfast to Glasgow. 742 Do not they get over for less than that ? — Occasionally they may have got over for less. 743. Vuu have stated that the aum necessary to support a family is about aa /. a ear ; is it not conshtim* with your knowledge, that many heads of families are only deceiving 4 w 6 ati8, they pass days without food. 745. What leads you to imogine that u rise i- the present wages at Glasgow would not be a temptation to the labouring poor 1.1 IrcLnd to go there ? — I do not think that the rise for some time would amount to so much as to enable the per»)n8 that came in to live. 7/}6. Are ) ou not aware of t.iie fact, that there are persons wandering ovrr the face of Ireland without any employment, or v;ithout any means of honest subsistence ? — J believe that a great part of itie population of Ireland is unemployed. 747. Consequently any employ men^ at any wages, however low, in Scotland, would be better than their present condition in Ireland ?.— I do not think if they were in the same situation as the weavers at Glasgow, that their situation would be better than .it present ; they live in Ireland, end they could do no more, after they had learnt to weave, in Glasgow. - 748. You say that tlie wea^ nc at Glasgow has some employment, and some wages, and you admit that part of ihe population in Ireland have no employment and no waives ; therefore, would rot their flowing into Glasgow to receive some employment and some nages, better ihe condition of that Irish population ? — I do not know that it would better their conditicti^ because if in Scotland they cannot get so much as to sustain ni-ture by their wages, seeing that they are sustain«td by some means or other in Ireland, I tliink they would not be better off in Scotland than they are in Ireland. 749. Are you aware th.it in the year 1S21 there was a Committee of Manage- ment of Emigration in Glasgow ? — I am ; but I was nut in Glasgow in that year. 750. Is it consistent with your knowledge, that in that year that Committee transported to America 1,883 individuals for j,485/., at the ra':: of 2/. l8«. per head ? — I believe they did. 751. That was prior to the passing of the Passengers Act ? — Yes u was. 752. Do you know what became of those 1,883 individuals upon their knding? — 1 believe the majority of them are still in Canada. 7,53. Have they any location? — They located themselves. 754. Were thty absorbed by the demand for labour in that country upop thei; landing? — 'Yes; and Cnrada had a coijinuai accession of emigrants year by jear, till the passing of that impolitic Act 755- Arc yon aw arc what has been the average rate of a passage to America, since the passing of the Passengers Act f*---! have hevd that it is six or seven pounds, including provisions. 756. If ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. th 756. If the Passengers Act were repealed, and the expense of a passage to America thereby diminished, although those c*estitute individuals whom you repre- sent could not emigrate in that way, have you any doubt that persons in great poverty, but one degree better, aild having some small capital, would find means to emigrate themselves? — I believe that many would. 757. And the entire population in this country would be diminished exactly in the same proportion as if those destitute individuals were removed ? — I do not say that ; because those destitute individuals form an immense mass of the population, and the proportion that would gradually remove would be small compared with them ; and during the operation of the removal of tiiose persons, the principle of population would continue td^increase the number of the wretched, for in proportion as people become more wretched, the population increases ; I mean to say, that when men are reckless and desperate in their character, they do not to-'>k for im- provement in their social condition, and they take the only enjoyment tiiey have in their power, viz. sexual Indulgence — they marry ; hence, m the worst parts of Ire- land, and in Lancashire, population more rapidly increases than in places where the people arc better oflf. 758. Having considered this subject attentively, can you state that it is your opinion, that applying the remedy of emigration to England or Scotland, and apply- ing no remedy to the surplus population of Irelhnd, would produce any important national result ? — I believe the national result would be momentary ; and I believe that emigration would not produce half the advantages which the reduction of many duties would produce, in giving employment to the population. I could instanca the fact of one duty, namely, the duty on printed goods, which amounts to about 4t« Liiuself, if allowed to do so in his own way, at a much less sum of money than tht State could do it for ? — I have already stated, that so far as reguriij conveying himself to Canada, I think he could; but as I have no personal Icnowledgu of the expenses in Canada, I must bow to the opinion of bthers in this Committee, who have more knowledge upon the subject. 767. Do you not believe that thousands and tens of thousands of emigrants havo in (ikflt locatsd themselves in Canada with the assistance of their friends, upon very small SUDM of money i — I know that to be the fact. 768. Some perhaps with no money <>.t J! ? — I do not know that to be the fact. 769. Are you acquainted with the amount of settlement fees required in Canada? ■^l am not. 770. Nur with the rate at w' 'ch land is sold ?—l understood it was given away. 771. Are the Committee to understand, that if the offer were made to those weavers in Olusgow and its neighbourhood, that they should be taken over and Und«d in Quebec, and receive no further assistance, that they would prefer accept- ing that otTer, finding their own way to their friends and settling themselves, to receiving assistance upon the principle of a minimum of subsistence beins given to them with reference to ultimate repayment P — Certainly not ; they are in such a wretched state, that they must have some assistance rendered in Canada by whoever takes them over. 77a. You were understood to state, that the friends of those parties are willing to assist in their location ; consequently upon an oppormnity being given for a com- HiuniGatioB to their friends, that they were to bu landed m Quebec, for example, upon a particular day, do you conceive that those weavers would rather trust to the •asistance of their friends, not moking themselves respun^iblu fur any return of money whatever, or that they would profer to be settled upon the principle of Mr. Robinson's emigrations in 1823 and i8:i5 .^— I Imvc no hesitation in saying that they would prefer some certain assistance. 773. Are you not aware that it has never been contemplated to give any assist- ance to tlie endgrantt that was not reduced tu the least amount that is compatible whh the maintenance of the emigrants so settled ? — I wish that all objections tu vroigration may be done away with by proposing the very cheapest plan that can be $tated to Parliament ; and I think that the plans that have been pursued akendy by those local societies have been shown to be ko exceedingly (heap, and so much below tlie sum mentioned by Mr. I'cel, that I have- no liesitation in smlinc one very great impedin\ent in the way of emigration ivould be removed, 11' tnoae plans were adopted. 774. Yon are understood to have ttlated iu answer to a question put tu you, tttat you think the emigrants themselves would prefer not to receive assistance after their arrival in Canada, but to lie placed in tin; neigtibouriiood of their friends, and to rely upon the assistance of those friends .-—What I meant to say was, that the emigrants, like many other men, would be very glad to be the judges of their own mode of expenditure ; as they would liavu to repny the muni M'JvBllced to tliem, they would like to have the hiring of the vessels, und an; thin^ol limt siiii, in llmir own committees, or committees of gentlemen whom they know ; and piobuhly by thtyi means they would save the repayment of half the money that goveroineot would otherwise expend ; I mean to say, if governmeitt would establish local com- mittees, similar to the comiiiiltees that have already fxisted in Ulasgou, there in a general feeling that the business would be done at a considerably smaller expetue than government would be put to. 775. Do you mean to state, that the details of the location of those emigrants in Canada, and their necessary expenses in that nmmtry, would bo better managefl by a Glasgow committee Hmn they would be by a general Emigration Committee, jupposing such were to be appointed r — I have no hesitation in saying that I believe it would be cheaper done by local committees, who are already well acquainted with all the details ; there is as much known about Canada by those loi-ul com- mittees at Glasgow, as is known by the government. 776. \\'\\{\\ practical course would you propose? — The (..aclieal course I wo«M propose would be simply this, to get some retptictabie gentlemen in Glasgow voluntarily, without any expense, to give their assistance ; there are aiany respcot- abie gentlemen in Glasgow and its neighbourhood, who uonid give the most cordiiil aMistaacB without any expense ; they would themselves look after it ; liiey «»ould get the intended emigrants their luud, and whatever was uccessury fgr their passage ; .it wid frf. ON EMIGRATION FKOM TH£ UNITED KINCSDOM: 18^7. 69 and they would Itirc vessels near Glasgow at a much cheaper ratv, and in a manner Mk much more agreeable to the emigrants, than the flmigrants would consider the '*"• *• MrMAaw*-^ government could do. 777. What should be done after they land ? — After they land, all further assist- ance should be left to the govomnent. 778. Admitting that their removal from Glasgow were to be effected under the management of local committees, up to tb« periw of their landing in Canada, you are understood distinctly to state, that with respect to the reiaaining expense, the cinigrunta would be prepared to trust to the mode of as»istance sanetitMied by this Cumiiiittee, or sanctiot. jtl by Parliament, that being the lowestrthat was deemed to be compatible with their ipelfare ? — Most cheerliilly. 779. In the event of a subscription being made in aid of the emigration of thnic persons, do you suppose the persons subscribing would not endeavour to remui^e the class that they tliouglit was the most useless, out of their neighbourhood ?— Of course. 780. You said, that you conceived the power-loom was a source of benefit to the country at Krge, although it contributed to cause diitlress in certain local districts ; do you suppose that those local districts would cor>sider that it rather devolved upon the country nt large, than upon those local districts, to aid the emigration of those persons? — I know that is the general opinion in the west of Scotland ; theger" ul opinion is, that if those persons were removed, they ought not to be removed by any further burthen upon the already too-charitable gentlemen o£ tlte district but that they should be removed at the expense of thu nation at large. 781. Do you suppose tliat such persons, su sub8cril>ing to assist the emigntion, wouM require, or would expect to have some means provided of preventifkg Mt undue accumiiliition of population, not natives of ttte country r — I have no hesitation in saying, that as improvement takes place in the condition of labouring men, popula- tion will have a check, upon the principles I have already stated, toth in Irfl guani against that ? — Certeinly, such is the general apptchcnsioo ; but I do not believe it would be the fact, that is to say, instantly. 783. You stated, that at a place which you know, the whole of the wewrers would he turned out of their houses by the proprietors, on a- certain day ; you stated also, that there was no parish fund, out of which the able-bodied peiaon» oould be 8U[ipiied ; what would be the consequences to those persons, could they aiiiimte to other parts of Scotland ? — There is no possible mode of relief to wdlich those persons could resort ; they could go to no trade in Scotland, for every trade u filled up ; and likewise, I understand, every trade in England ; the weaver ia in that peculiar condition, that he can turn bis labour to nothing, except the very lowest offices ; tlity may get a little out-deor work ; I have seen tlieir hands lacerated ex- ceedingly, by earning sixpence a day at breaking stones. 7R4. Do you tt nk tliero is a redundance of population of native Scotch, or do you think it is owin^j to ti.." influx of Irish ?.-~I|lo not think there would be a re- itundnnt population in any -^hH. of Great Britain, were taxation abated, and resti V- tions aliDllhlied ; not oven witii ull the Irish that come into Scotlan^i 78,5. Do you thiiil<, if the Irish population were removed from Ijmarkshire and Renfrewshire, that there thetf would not be sufficient ennployment for tho weavers, l)y ollowing them to take the country labour, instead of that Irisli population ? — I l)clicve tiiat country labour is too much supplied at present, and cannot say whether there would or would not be sufficient. 786. If the In^h were removed, would that destroy the proportion? — I b«ii^ve if the whole of the Irish were removed, it would certainly destroy the proportioa ; but I think it would be viuch more desirable that the Scotch should be removed, inasmuch as many of tli«^i'i Iwve friends in Canada. \Tlie following Kulhuiile ami Statements werf deliveredin, and riad :} '* # H 64 MINUTES OF EVIUKNCK BEI-OKR SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. W. 8. Surlkkoute. V ' I Muth, 1I17. No. 1. ESTIMATK, tliowing the Quantity, Prioa, ■nil ilifliirent kiiidi of ArliclM contunied, or EipanM incurred by employwl m ■ Weaver, tnd ciniiidered M • j«coii^>ra«« workman, when hii average wagw, during the year 1815, were £.41. j«. per annum ; the lowret rale of waget during the year being lit. per week, and the higheit rata 18 1, per week s houri of working, Oom 14 to 16 hour* per day. The number of penont i,. ;iie family were, — W I Man, whow average wagei p 4 annum were I Woman, who during the yeai contributed by her labour to the*^ annual income 3 Children, none of whom were able to contribute any thing towordil the annual income -.-•-•-•-/ Total »um of vogea annually received by a Weaverl . and hit Wife / *' £. «. i. 5 17 - * .1 By 5 elli per day weaving, a moo} Lawn Bord, a'6{i/. per ell.l after deducting odd dayt, being annually .... .J Wife employed at winding yam, a' 31/. per tpindle, earning a/3 |)cr^ week, or annually -.••.•...-j £. : d. 4« 4 - 3 »7 " 48 e ANNUAL CXPENOITURK. AHTiGLas produced at Hone, and conaumed In houaeliotd uie: (Juuititj. 53 quartern loavea i04pecki, a' 81b." per peck 78 pecka, a' 461b.' pisr peck a' t d. per week Si lb. at aita. 41G quart!, a' irf.1 per quart •/ I gallon 1561b. - - 59 lb. ». - 8|galloM - 5 Carta, a* 13 cwt. 3alb. a'84 8 la • 11 8 8 8 _ 4 4 13 4 4 INCOME and EIPINDITDRE of iaid Family in 1836 : One Man weaving a la^ Lawn Bord, •' tld. per ell, 5} elle per day of 16 hour* length, being annually ..-...--j A Wife winding yam at a redaction, earning annually .... Three Children to lupport, who earn nothing ...... Total yearly Income ... Expended for Oatmeal, Potatoes, Salt, and other food Loweit espenae for wear and tear of weaving materially and 1 other charge* connected with working, a 1/3 wi-ukiy • J £. f. d. Id 10 - a 5 - Leaving for Houie>rent, Clothing, direct Taxes, Sicknet*. 3irt^•,\ /• Burial*, Religious and Moral Instruction, &C. &C.&C. • - -J ' £. I. d. •5 >3 - 3 >5 ««> 19 '10 10 «5 3 li" 10 S. B. — It is impossible to detail the expinditurc of iSaG, I'rovinions being pro- cured by trifles, and many mean shifts had recourstf to, to perpetuate exiktence. AVERAGE PRICE of the following Articles during the Years t ARTICLES. Oatmeal, per peak of 8 lb. • Barley, per lb. • I'otatoes, per peck of 4 lb. . Beef, per lb. of gijf or. Wheat Bread, per quartern loaf Butter, per lb. of sa 01. Salt, per lb. Soap, per lb. prr cart of it cwt. Sugar, per lb. . Tea, per 01. . British Spirits, per gallon Coffee, per lb. 1815: 18.1(1 ! —^ d. a :) II 7 II 4 *i 10 f) .5 ii37- rf. i) 3 1 1 8 10 5 -i 9 1) t* 6 (6 MINUTKS Ol EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. 1 March, i8i7. Statement, No. 2. -^ THE foljoning ia a List of the WORK of so WEAVERS, taken ai they were inwrted io the Books of a certain Warehouse. Description of work. Light Muslins, from a 13** to a 14I'** Kecd. N" 1836: N" Aiaount RMfARKJI ef thv! Web. Fram Tu o( Du;i. of EaniiDg. - , £. ». d. 93' October - «9 November 15 'Z • 2 4 1 7 6 " 5 — 11 — 4 H 1 3 4 913 — 10 — 11 33 - '5 3 — 7 C — 11 1 10 35 3fi 35 1 10 5 - «3 » 1 4 4 !*07 — G October - •iS '23 - 'Z 3 I 16 7 905 — G November II 3fi |-ss«>-3 903 JJOi ^^ 4 3 z 4 1(5 3> 44 1 10 fi 3-5 1 \fy^ 901 — :i — 8 36 - 18 1 ■ 098 ^^ 3 3 ^, 10 II 38 39 - 15 3 1 10 5 P94 September 30 — 7 38 1 13 *» 893 — 30 7 38 1 4 4 H91 30 11 4« « 7 5 658 85 '5 - Statement, No. 3. Weaver in Anderston, after being two weeks out of employment, had the good fortune to procure for work a Double Damask Shawl from on the 3ist October, and finishi'd it on the i8th November, 1836, being 4 weeks. £. I. d. 60 Ells, a' 5 d. per ell, amounU to Deduct for Drawboy's wages, 3/ per week - 1^ Looid rent, Drcasing, &c. 1/6 • d* - Leaving him for four weeks subsister7 10 ■{ 1 13 6 1 4 1 13 9 /.- 4 >o 3 OK EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOiM : 1827. 67 erted in the Statement, No. 5. * Weaver, reaidinR in Sampson't Land, Clicapsidivstrcet Andcrston, weavct a Fiiiinhei a web uf 163^ ellii long in 4 weulcs and 3 days. lo" 5/4 Jaconet a' if-f/. per ell 163^ Ella, a* i^d. per ell, amounts to Deuuct for loom rent, drctting, &c. - Beaming, 4| •. 7 17 6 «37. Leaving for Subsistence and Clothing * £. la It 10 68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Statement, No. 8. INCOME and EXPENDITURE of a Family, ihe Man employed as an Assistant Tenter : Year i8i6. Quantity. 78 pecks, ■' 1/8 78 d* - - 365 quails - 5* quarterns - 36lbs. »'8 employed as an assistant tenter in a power- loom factory ; is considered a Jint rate workman in that branch, and receives 10 «. per week as stated wages, and did so during the year 1B2C - Total yearly Income His wife, who contributed by her labour 1/6°) per week, or yearly . . . . j Incoms per annum EXPENUITURI - Difference in arrear "-^ £. I. i 36 - - 3 18 - 29 18 33 19 10 3 14 10 M! John Tait and James IVilscn. I March, 1837. John Tait and James Wilton, called in ; and Examined. 787. (7b Tail.) — W HAT is your employment? — I am a weaver. 7S8. The Committee understand tiiat if funds were to be advanced from anj quarter for the purpose of y;uir emigration, after the expiration of a certain period of years you would have no objection to bind yourself to pay interest for the money so originally advanced ? — None at all, that is what we wish ; we wish it as a loan, not as a gratuity. 789. Of course you would be desirous that every expense that could possibly ue avoided should be avoided in your location in Canada ? — Certainly, because the less expense that is laid out in taking us out, the less there will be to repay, as we look' upon it as certain that we must repay it. 790. But at the same time, although you very naturally wish that the expense should be reduced to the lowest possible degree, you do not mean to object to such expense as is necessary to enable you to prosper, by giving you assistance in the earlier period of your emigration ? — Certainly ; what is useful to us in agricultural implements and subsistence is absolutely necessary for our well-being, because unless -A'e have a good foundation we cannot expect to have success. 791. Supposing you are taken out at the least expense possible, that you are pro- visioned during your passage there at the least expense compatible with your health, that you are taken to your location at the least expense, that you have implements found for you at as cheap a rate as is consistent with the goodness of them, that you are rationed at as low a rate as is compatible with your health, and Uiat b general you receive only that degree of assistaiice which is necessary to give yon a chance of prospering there ; do you feel any objection to pledge yourself, at a future period to repay, or in other words, to pay interest upon the money so advanced to you? — We have no objection to those terms ; >Md indeed the persons that we ivpresent are waiting anxiously for something of the kind, and would be happy to hear that on these conditions they would get some relief. 792. Supposing you had the choice given to you, either to be assisted in forming your settlement at as low a rate of expenle as can possibly be incurred, upon the terms of making repayment for the money advanced ; or to h ive no assistance, and to be left to shm for yourselves after your landing in Canada, without being called upon to make at?y^ return ; which would you prefer?— We would like the first con- • " « dkton ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGHOM: 1827. tiy dition better, that is, of advancing the means as a loan, and that we would re- pay it. 793. Have you any means of ascertaining to what extent you wouk' be able to make a r!;payment ? — According to the correspondence we have witli those that have gone before, and the personal knowledge of aome that have recently jome home to take avay their families in the spring, we have every reason to hope that we will be most successful ; indeed most of those that have gone out before were weavers, and they state in their letters, that now they are almost independent; I would namq one person, who was not accustomed to out-doors labour, of the name of Carswell, he went out to the townshipc' Ramsey in the year 1821, he has been there since; he said he had eight dollars when he left Cicenock to go out on his passage ; he waa fiflcen-pence in ilebt when he was established upon his land ; with the government aisistance. and with his own perseverance, he has accumulated a good stock on his ground. 794. What is his stock worth ? — I never heard it estimated, but he said he had as much subsistence as would serve him for two years; and he sold as much as carried him home, and to take out his family in the spring ; he was single-handed ; he had eighteen acres cleared ; and he said that had he h&d a family and been obliged to apply himself more, he would have succeeded far beyond that. 795. How long has he been out? — About six years. . 796. If you were not called upon to pay one larthing of interest upon the money applied to your emigration, for seven years, you would feel no doubt of ^our being perfectly enabled to do it after that time ? — None at all. 797. When you say that you have no doubt that you should be perfectly able to repay the money advanced, have you any idea of the amount you should be required to make the repayment of? — We have always roundly stated the expense to be at twenty (lounds a head, but this was taken from calculations of the former settlers ; from the circumstances of the times, wc consider that it may be still less. 798. Supposing it were found that a man and a woman and three children could not be located with advantag*;, having all that assistance which you express a wish to have an opportunity of receiving, and of ultiuiately repaying at a less sum than 100/. would you feel any objection to bind yourselves at the end of seven years, not paying any thing during that period, to pay 5/. per c^t on that money, as a return for the money advanced to you in money or in mone^ worth ? — No objection ; the only difficulty we see in rcpaym^ in money, is the want of a ready market, but if government would take it in gram, it would be very beneficial to us. 799. Supposing that money should not be forthcoming at that time, would you have any objection to bind yourself to repay in, grain or produce 5 /. per cent upon the money so advaiiced for you ?— None at all ; we would be happy on such condition to obtain it. 800. Do you think, from the information you have received, that you would b6 exposed to any thing like inconvenience after the termination of seven years, in paying in grain or in money that amount ? — No ; as I said before, from our correspondence with those who have gone out, we feel certain that, with proper industry, we would be able to repay it without any difficulty at all ; and indeed we consider that in less than twenty years we would be able to redeem the principal. 801. Have you made any inquiries with regard to the demand for labour in the United States?-— I know some that have gone out to the United States lately, and they went as tradesmen, to work at their trade ; in some places the demand is pretty good, in others it is not so ; but the wages of a weaver there are below a common labourer's, and in that case we consider t^at, with the tide of emigration directed to the United States, we would be obliged to work at our trade, and carry ttie evil along with us of a multiplication of hands in that trade. 802. Supposing you had your choice, cither to incur the debt of 20/. a head to be located in Canada, or to have assistance given you to the extent of 5/. a bead, merely to emigrate and to make the best of your way wherever there was a dematid for laboar throughout the United States, which would you prefer r—1 would prefer the government debt of 20/. to repay it; there are a number that are so tired out with commercial life, indeed most of'^the emigrants are so tired out with commercial lifiB, that thc^ would not, I believe, accept the gift of 5/. to go to the United States to follow their own occupation, but in general they would accept the government grant, because ihey would consider that under government tli^ would be mure successful and sure than by taking their chance. ^ • • 337.. ' I 3 io^. Are John Tail und James WiUun. March, 1837. 70 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Jh*« Tuit and Jamei lyUsun. Mrtrrh, 803. Are the weavers aware of tlie nature of the labour of a new settler ? — They are perfectly aware of the great hardships they must encounter in the first two or three years. 804. Do you think they will make good fellers of heavy wood, and that they will be able 10 stump up roots and clear land ? — A good many of them have been accustomed to out-door labour ; and during last summer a good number were em- ployed in breaking stones, a species of labour harder than that of felling trees, and if they can exert themselves in one way they will do it in another. 805. From your general knowledge of the feelings of the persons wishing to emigrate, in Glasgow and its neighbourhood, on the whole, are you disposed to think they wouid rather incur a debt of 20/. a head, or take a smaller sum, and be left to shift for themselves throughout the continent of America? — I could take upon myself to say, they would rather accept the 20/. a head, than take the ,5/. 8o(). You have stated, that several persons have gone from that part of the country to Canada already, as emigrants ; what sum of money have they usually carried with them? — I could not answer that. 807. You talked of some government assistance being given to a person that was fifteen-pence in debt upon his arrival at his location ; do you know what the nature and extent of that assistance was? — They paid their own passage from Greenock to Montreal ; and there were three instalments given them by government, of eight pounds a head. 808. In the case of this man that was fifteen-pence in debt when he arrived Ut"" his location, what was the sum that he received from government r — He received eight poimds besides, but when he was located upon his land he was fifteen-pence in debt ; but he had one or two instalments from government after that, which enabled him to live. 809. What was the sum total of the assistance he received from government ? -< Eight pounds, and implements. 810. And any stock ? — No. 811. No pig or cow ? — Nothing whatever of that kind. 812. No food? — He had five pounds in money after he was located upon his land, to purchase food for the first year. 813. Suppose a manufacturer was going to Canada, he would sell off his furni- ture and his loom, and what he had in his house ; how much do you suppose he could raise in that way ? — THIere was a sale of weavers' implements and household furniture, about tn .' or three weeks ago, in the village of Govan ; I think the seques- tration cost about two or three pounds, and the money produced by the selling of the articles was I2«. A loom, which every weaver must have, and materials along with it, which would cost 5 /. about three or four years ago, sells now, if put up to sale, sometimes as low as gd. and sometimes at 3<. ; but they cannot get above los, in any case. ^^14. What would he get for the other articles of funiiture in his house? — There is not one among fifty that can say the furniture there is their own. ^. C. Buchanan, bnq. 3 Mari'h, 1837. Sahhat'h 3° die Martii, 1827. Alexander Carlisle Buchanan, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 81-,. YOU ore generally acquainted with the circumstances 01 die trade in the carrying of passengers between this country and the United States, as well as between this country and Canada? — From Irelantf I am perfectly. 816. Have you made any comparison between the expense that will be occasioned by the restraints proposed in this Act, wh:ch has been laid before the Committee as a substitution for a former Act, and the exftense occasioned by the Act of the year 1825? — I have. 8 1 7. What would be the difference of expense between the two Acts ? — About 12 s. 6d. for each passenger. 818. What do you consider would be the expense ' , present? — It is now perhaps 40 «. for an adult, or 3/. 819. From what port to what port?— Fron. Londonderry and Belfast, which are the great ports of emigration to our colonies ; to the United States it is about 5/. or 6/. S'i>\ What would be the expense of the poorest class of passengers from Belfast to Quebec? — Aoout 50;., findmg their own provisions. 8a|. By ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 71 821. By this Act, a certain quantity of provisions is necessary? — They are; but the representations wtre so numerous from the poor people, that the provisions prescribed by the Act were so expensive, that the officers of His Majesty's Customs saw that it would in eflect almost prohibit emigrati*^ if n were enforced, and they took upon themselves, I believe, to wave that par^ . the Act. 822. Do you consider that in point of fact, with respect to emigrants going from Ireland generally, the provisions of that Act have virtually been waved? — Not generally; the restriction as to numbers, and a proper supply of w».t?r, surgeon, &c. was particularly attended to by the officers of Customs, and althouj^h they waved that clause respecting a certain description of provisions, they generally made inquiry into the supply the passengers had. 823. Have you an opportunity of knowing that to be case with respect to the south of Ireland as well as the north ? — I have not. 824. Is it your impression that it has been so in the south? — I should think it has been. I dare say I have accompanied 6,000 emigants to America myself, within the last ten years. 825. In those cases, the provisions of that Act were not enforced ? — Not to any great extent; it has been the custom, for the last six or seven years, for the passengers to find their own provisions ; formerly the ships found them. 826. Then in point of fact, the passengers themselves took that quantity of provisions which they thought necessary ? — ^They did. 827. Da you imagine that the amount of provisions proposed to be required by this new Act, is greater tlian what is taken by the poorest of the emigrants who pro- vide for themselves ? — I do not think it is near so much. 828. The question applies to the quality as well as the quantity ? — I understand it so. 829. Do the emigrants take pork or meat, for instance ?— V^ry seldom ; they take a little bacon. 830. Have the provisions which the Act prescribed with respect to tonnage, been actually observed ? — They have. 83 1 . The Custom-house officers have uniformly taken care, although they have relaxed with respect to provisions, to have the proportions of passengers to tonnage preserved ? — They examine the list o<" passengers going out, to see that it corresponds with the licence ; the licence is granted in proportion to the registered tonnage. 833. Is it the custom after the Custom-hojse officer has examined the list, that passenger; are taken off the coast? — I do r.ot think it is; I have heard of trifling instances of the kind ; the price paid for passage to our own colonics is so trifling, that a captain of a ship would hardly take the trouble. 833. Did you ever know it to hap|)en in any vessel which you yourself were on board i- -Never ; I have repeatedly seen some relanded that have hid away on botr' ; on the captain examining c.i leaving port, if he found he had any above his nuuibei . he would hove to, and put them on shore. 83 ;. What practical inconvenience do you anticipate from allowing passengers to taVr with them such provisions as they may think fit, without any legislative enact- ment on the subject ? — I think that the description of emigrants from Ireland particularly are very ignorant, and they have latterly got such an idea of the quick dispatch to America, tliat they would take a very short supply ; they hear of packets coming over from New York to Liverpool in twenty or twenty-five days, and many of them come into Derry, calculating upon a twenty days passage, and without a quantity of oatmeal and other ntcessaries in proportion, and they ore obliged to provide themselves with a larger quantity before they go on board. 835. Have you ever known any inconvenience actually to arise in consequence of a deficiency of provisions ? — I have not known any myself, but formerly I have understood there were very great )irivations suffered, and a great many lives lost, before the Passengers Act passed. 836. Is that an opinion which yoj have heard from so many quarters as to leave no doubt in your mind of it being tlie fact ? — I am perfectly satisfied of it. 837. Have you not stated that these legislative regulations have, in point of fact, not been adhered to ? — They have not, as regards provisions. . 838. But although they were not adhered to, they were not so entirely evaded as not to leave them in considerable operation ? — Dtvidedly not. 839 Supposing a passenger, under the expectation of a quick passage, had brou^;lit only half the food which this new Act contemplates, what would have taken pif.oe ^ 237- I 4 in . C, Buchunan, Eiq. ( Miirch, 1817. 72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE /t. C. Rmhunaii, Eiq. 3 Murcli. I8i7. in that instance ; is any inquiry made by the captain of the passenger, as to Uk quantity of provision he has ? — Always. 840. If the quantity of provisions he had brought was manifestly under whot was necessary for an average voyaijc, would not the captain insist on his taking mere ? — Decidedly, he would not receive him without. 841. With respect to the tonnage, will you state to tne Committee the reason why you are of opinion that there is a necessity for requiring the height of five feet six inches between the decks, and for prohibiting all stores from being placed be- tween the decks ? — I consider it indispensable in a ship carrying at the rate of one passenger to every two tons, to reserve the entire space between decks for their ac- commodation, und the deck of the ship not being at least five feet and a half, it would not be proper to have it double birthed ; an. a ship carrying at the rate of one passenger to every two tons, will require to be double birthed, and to have six persons in each birth. 842. Are the double-decked merchant vessels usually of tliat height between the decks? — Generally more; there are very few that are not. 843. Then have you any reason to anticipate tliat ships would be built for the express purpose of carrying out emigrants, which would be of a less height between decks than the oroi.iary merchant vessels, or that the vessels that would be used for that purpose would probably be old merchant vessels ? — Not at all ; there are very few ships that tr$ide to Ameriqa that are not five feet and a half high between decks, and OU-. 844. Tiicn do you conceive that there is any necessity for any regulation en- forcing that which actually exisi'^ without any regulation ? — The reason of that clause is, that ships carrying one to every five tons would be saved the necessity of any delay in making an application fur a licence; thoy could take their one to live tons, and proceed on their voyage in the ordinary way ; whereas if they take in a greater number than that, some restriction should be imposed. 845. Do you imagine that there will be any practical inconvenience in these regulations being enforced, cither at the Custom-house at the port from which they go in England, or at the Custom-house at the port at which they land in the colony ? — None whatever. 846. Do you consider that any expense would be incurred in consequence of those regulations, which would of necessity add to the expense of the passage r — None whatever. 847. Then you are of opinion, that if those regulations were considered to be ne- cessary, there would be no objection .rgainst tiiem upon the ground of any real inconvenience being sustained by the trade in consequence of them ? — None what- ever ; I am satisfied they would be approved of, both by the emigrants and the ship- owners. 848. Do you entertain the opinion, that the parties going out would rather be protected by legislation to the extent proposed, than to have no legislation upon the subject ? — I am perfectly satisfied they would. 849. Are the Committee to understand that they object very much to those extreme regulations, which make the expense of the passage beyond their means r — They have a great objection to being obliged to have a particular description of provisions, but that has been latterly dispensed with. 8,')0. Then, in point of fact, has emigration from Ireland been prevented, in con- sequence of that part of the Act which relates to provisions ? — I do not think it has. 85 1 . As you have stated th \t the restrictions of this Act with respect to pro- visions have been virtually sup'.'rseded in practice, it is presumed that emigration from Ireland cannot have been prevented by the operation of this Act? — To a very small extent ; perhaps to the amount of 100 a year or 200 a year more at tlie outside might have gone ; the difi'erence can only be about 10 or 12 shillings in the expense. I have lit::: H a great many statements made about the Passengers Act ; as to the Act increasing the expense of passage to the United States, and amounting to a prohibition of emigration, I am satisfied that if the Act were repealed the price would not be diminished one farthing, as the American law imposes a greater limi- tation as to number than the British und other local regulations. 852. Supposing this Act were not to be passed, requiring toe emigrant to take with liini a certain specified quantity of food for 7.'i days, do you iniagHie that the emigraht could in prudence take a less quantity : — I do not thiuli he could, for I have known instances of very fast sailing ships from Liverpool being 75, 80 or 90 ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNltlib KINGDOM: 1827. 73 days going out to New York, and frequent instances occur of ships being 60, 70 and 80 days going to Quebec. 853. You say, that you thinic the emigrants would not taice a less quantity of pro- visions than that which is prescril)ed by the Act ?— I do not liiinlc C cy would ; they senerally consult the captain ; they tell the captain of the ship what quantity they nave got, and if he thinks they have not got cnaugh, they put on board more. 854. That Act provides for a certain quantity of bread, meal and flour ; is that the species of provision upon which the lower classes in Ireland live, either entirely or in a great measure ? — It is generally their chief support. 855. You are not much acquainted with the south of Ireland ?^Not particularly ; I consider that oatmeal and potatoes form the principal food of the Irish peawntry generally ; I include potatoes when in proper season, say in the spring of the year, very necessaiy, but in case of bad weather or other casualty, oatmeal, flour or biscuit can only be depended on. 856. You are not aware that in the south of Ireland the peasantry never taste bread from one year's end to another ? — I am not aware that they never taste bread, they chiefly live on potatoes ; but this Act merely says, that there shall be that quantity of that or any other wholesome food equivalent thereto ; I only submit that there should be a certain quantity of something on board, enough to keep them in life for 75 days. 857. If there were no restriction whatever by law as to the food to be taken by the passengers, do not you think that the captain of every ship carrying out pas- sengers would for his own sake take care that no person should be taken on board who had not a proper quantity of provisions ? — I think he would, or ought to do. 8.58. Have not you stated that that is the habit? — They generally inquire what quantity of provisions the passengers have brought ; the ship is under a very heavy responsibility ; I have known instances where the ship has taken on board a quantity of meal to guard against the possibility of the passengers falling short ; I have done so myself, I have taken in a few tons of oatmeal, at the expense of the ship, to pre- vei t toMy accident. 859. Incase of a passenger falling short of provisions, would not the captain have to supply that deficiency ? — Perliaps the captain might not have any to spare. 860. Does the captain generally ^o to sea so short of provisions ? — A ship going to sea in the North American trade, if she victuals at home, may take in three or 1o\yT months provisions, but what would a redundancy of a barrel of biscui : or ^ bonel of meal be among 300 emigrants. 861. What is the general burthen of those ships that carry 300 pcsons? — From 300 to 400 tons. 862. How many emigrants, according to the regulations of this Act, would be shipped on board a vessel of 35c tons ? — I have put on paper a few observationi with respect to the points of difference between the proposed Act and the former Act, which I will read to the Comnr.ittee. In the first place, the proposed Act per- mits the ship to carry her full number, say one to two tons register, children in proportion, exclusive of the crew ; the former Act included the crew. Secondly, it dispenses with carrying a doctor ; the former Act imposed that necessity. Thirdly, it permits the ship carrying cargo, reserving a sufficiency of space, with the whole of the betrveen-decks, for passengers, provisions, water, &c. ; the former Act pro- hibited carrying cargo, or it was so construed by the Irish Board of Customs. Fourthly, it relieves the shipowner and captain from obnoxious and frivolous clauses and expenses that never perhaps would be resorted to, but operated in the calculation of a conscientious shipowner, not to permit his ship to embark in such trade, fifthly, it permits the passenger or emigrant to lay in his own provisions, or to make any contract they think fit with the captain for that purpose, the captain being responsible that a suflicicncy of wholesome food for 75 days of some kind is on board for each adult passenger ; the former Act obliged the ship to have on board a particular description of provisions, not suited to the habits of emigrants, and of increased expense. And the proposed amended Act gives every protection to the emigrant, at the same tinie removing many absurd difficulties to the ship, and per- mits as many passengers to be put on board as could possibly he justified with any due regard to their health and lives. I shall state in my humble opinion how it operates in a pecuniary way : first, a sliip 400 tons by the former Act could only carry, deducting crtw, about 180 adults ; now 200 ; difference 20, at 40 s. per head, deducting expense of water, &c. 40/. : secondly, free from expense of doctor, at least 50/. : thirdly, giving liberty to carrv cargo, is at least worth equal to 2; /. : ?37- ■ ' K fourthly. J. C. Byehanm, 3 March, 1827. 74 MINUTES OF tVlDENCK HEFOUE SELECT COMMmEK A. C. thuiunan, Ew|. < 1 i March, ^ M' fourthly, I comitler that dispensing with the obli^ution that many ^ipf itrc uno r, to put salt pruvisiuns on board to conform to old Act, although not used equal with Qther matters, to 2^1 ; making a total of 140/., which on two hundred emigrants would be equal to Ms. or i^s. per adult; and supposing that a ship was taking to emigrants, and that plenty were offering, it would enable tlie ship tu corry then fur so much less than under the formar Act, and form as nuich acuial gain on tho passage as charging so much higher, so that in fact the emigrant "ets his piuttiigu for so much less, and without any loss to the ship. A ship of four Hundred tons Itaa about seventy-five feet in length of space, and twenty-six feet wide between decks ; so, to have her doubled birthed, would give you about twenty-six births aside, or fifty- two in all; and allowing six persons to each birth, would accoannodate three hundred and twelve persons, which a ship of four hundred tons is permitted to carry ; sa^ two hundred adults, with average proportion of children, would at least make (if not more) the number stated, and with twenty of crew, would give on board altogether 333 persons in a space about 95 feet long, 35 to 26 feet wi at ■ <•»»,, ,1 ,""* hardship .uuld be I .ely tofo. ow. K64. Do you knuiv A any - ■mvi> n-t "-iqueixes that did arise previous to the passing of the Passengers A' ?~ 1 '(c jsiances where passengers were carried a thousand miles from the place Ui' :ubtrb *'' ' for. 865. You know of cases of great indiviu ardship and suffering r — I do not know of any myself personcdly, but I have heard cf several, particularly a brig from Dublin a year or two ago ; but there arc positive instances of a number of lives being lost in foreign vessels going from Germany to Philadelphia, which was tho cause of the American Act being passed. 866. In the evidence taken by the Irish Committee in 18114, there is a letter printed, from you, quoting that case which you have just mentioned, of tlie brig William in Dublin ; do you know noUiing mure of it than what Ih stated there ?; — I have heard since that the captain was arrested in Quebec, and, I believe, pro- ceeded against by order of the Irish government; it was a very flagrant caae. 867. Was it a case of deficient provisions? — I do not know particularly what tUa causes were. 868. In what year did the Passengers Act pass, was it not 1 823 ? — I thiok it was. 869. Are you aware that 10,300 voluntary emigrants in 1833 ^^^ Ireland foe America ? — I do net know the exact number ; I could tell, by referring to documents^ the number that left Londonderry, which is the great focus of emigration. 870. Are you not aware that in 1 824, that is, the year after Uie PasHengers Ad paafred, the number of 10,300 was reduced to 7,500? — I ant not aware particularly, I think it very possible ; we can always tell in the season before, in the north of Ireland, whether we are likely to have a large emigration ; it depends upon the suc- cess that the emigrants met with in the preceding year ; they write home Utten^ and if tha season has been favourable, if there Itas been any great demand for labour^ like the Western Canal, that absorbs a great many of tiiem, they send home flatteriog letters, and they send home money to assist in bringing out their friends. 871. If the fact be as it has been stated, that in the year in which tb« Passengers Act passed, the number of emigrants was 10,300, and the year immediately after the passif^ of it, it waa reduced to 7*500 ; would you not be disposed to ascribe some portion of that diminution to the passing of the Passengers Act? — I think Ihere has beon more stress laid upon the Passengers Act than is warranted by the 4act. 879' Do you not know enough of the labouring classes in Ireland, to know that if a person who had emigrated to Canada, one of Mr. Robioaon's settlers for iu- •taoce, were to write home and speak of his sucocss, without explanation, it might he the means of inducing an enugraut to go without any capital, upon the cakwa- taon that he woitld receive similar assistance ? — Decidedly ; it would operate very strongly upon them. 873. You Iw/e lately been in eoaaauMcaliou with Lofd Dalhottsie?-^! have ; I laft Queber in Novenber last. 874. Lord sind .li 875 landing, to anv [o scriptioii, general! . 876. • would ON LMIURATION FROM IHE UNITED KINGDOM: 1817. 75 874. Ix>rd Dnlbousie addressed a it'ter to the Colonial Department, saying that you wort; apprized of his views upon llie .ubjcct of emigration generally ; have you, from your own observutioii, formed any opinion, or have you received information trom Lord Dalhousic as to his opinion, of the consequence of emigrants landing in any part of the Caiadus witliout the means of subsisting themselves, and dependent upon employment for theii success, after such landing? — I have hud the honour of con orsing a ^ood deal on tliiu subject with Lord DalTiousie, and I know it to be hi* lordship'^ opinion, and in which 1 decidedly concur, that if any great quantity of emigrants came out without having proper arrangements made for them previous to their landing, and means provided for their location, he should regret it excessively, and it would be the source of great distress to then and inconvenience to the governmt :'■. ,r own knowledge "f it *ill ei ble you to 8p< ak to the fact a( emigrants 1 suffering great distress, fi ''m being without any means ? — I cannot refer icuar case ; those t!.at I have known, were generally of a superior de- om the north ' f Ireland, from Tyrone and 1 inanagh ; they were men lossee'' <;; a little property, and in any thing but a distressed state. yoi ki jw sufficient of the situation of the United States, to know what the co..dCt]uence of a very imlimiteu body of emigrants witliout capital, bk,ing lundcd there ? — You foul' .ct land them there, the laws would prevent it. 877. You do not moan to say the»'«i are not every year landed in the ports of the United States, a great number of paupers, emigrants from Iraland and England ?— > I should think, very few. T should think the great bulk of the emigrants that go to the United States, have Iriends in America ; they generally have some money. I knew an instance last year, that emigrants, perhaps to the extent of five huinlred, went from Londonderry to I'hdadelphia and New York, and I should think out of those, near Tour hundred of them had their passage paid in Aroerioa. 878. Do you mean to apply the same olnervations to Quebec ?--'No ; I should think that there are many in Canada that would send for their friends from Ireland, if they had th^ means of remitting money to them ; but a person living in the Talbot, or other distant township!^, hu3 no way of remitting five or seven pounds hooie. 879. Do you think that the American Passengers Act has had any influence upor ♦hn class of emigrants that have f^one there?— Decidedly ; if there are two siiipf taking in emigrants at Derry, one taking in for ?hiludelphia, and the othm ftf Canp' a, 4he one will have quite a different class of people from the ether ; in t^ American ship, they will be better provided and better clad. I have known owner, of ships in New York pay as much as a thousand dollars for the support of paup«r emigrants, previous to the American Acts. 880. Is that the case in Philadelphia, and the parts of Chesapeake ? — ^The Pas- sengers Act extends to all the states ; but particular states, for instance New York, have local impediments. I do not know that local impediment extends to the Chesapeake ; but if they found in Baltimore that there were a great number of pauper emigrants cornng in, they would very soon pass a State Act to prevent it. tSi. In point of feet, can you state to the Committee that any law of that d«- tcription exists in any Stale south of New York?— I camiot tell decidedly. 882. When you represent that difference to exist between the class of emiorant* wh6 go to America, and the class that go to Quebec, do you mean to draw toe in- ference, that an extension of the provisions uf the American Paaengers Act to Quebec would produce a similar effect upon the class of emigrants who would go thither ? — If we were to restrict the emigration to Quebec, the more expensive it would be to the free emigrant ; of course, the more reepectabie would be the das* of people that would go. 883. It would have the effect, tlien, of keeping at home the poorest and most deati* tute class? — I should think it would, decidedly. 884. Of those pauper emigrants that so arrive in the Saint Lawrence from Ireland, do you think any large proportion remain in the comitry ? — There are more remain in the country now than did formerly; I should think last year there might k»re arrived in Quebec about 9,000 emigrants, and a great portion of Ihoae that go to Quebec make it a stepping-stone for going to the western parts of the United States ; it is the cheapest route. AH those aomg to the back parts of Pennaylvaoui, bordering upon Lake Erie, and to Ohio, take the route of Quebec and MiootnBal, from the great facility of transport. W^. Are you hot ofofiinibh that if a great body of paupor ^riagimnU were todnn from Ireland to rtic Saint Lawrence, by far the greMcrnnmber wei^d b« induM^, 2;}7. . K2 by I •(J /.C. ■J Munh, i«a.7. UVl 76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE A, C. SuekmiaH, Eiq. V__ I 3 March, 1847. by various > ircumstances, to go to the United States, and would not settle in the British Colonies r— I do not think there is (o much ol' that feeling as there wws nor in fact is there that inducement. 886. Do not you think ttrat a demand for labour on public works occurring in the United States, would attract u great number? — It bus attracted ti great number, but the great Western Canal is nearly finished, and there will be a great number of hands ready to go from that canal, to carry on any new work. 887. Is there not generally a great disposition in the Irish emigrants to go to Kublic works, or to towns and manufactures, rather than to cultivate the sod ? — lot where there is a family ; if the emigrant is a single man, he goes wherever he can get a day's work, and at public work their pay is generally in cash. 888. Supposing the case of a pauper emigrant landing at Quebec, upon the speculation of going to the Western States without any means, and without any capital, how is he to accomplish it F — If he has any work he will avail himself of that work, but unless there is a demand for his labour, he must remain there and depend upon charity ; all those originally that intended going to the States or to Quebec, are provided with money, which is generally sent them by tlteir friends. 889. Do you know a charitable institution existing at Quebec, called the Quebec Emigration Society? — I have heard of it. 890. In the year 1823, of lo.s.'^S emigrants that went out, all those who wvrc destitute were supplied with the immediate necessaries of life by that society, at the charge of 550/. ?— I should think that merely referred to those that loitered there during the winter, just the mere ofl'al of the emigration. 891. You have stated, that Lord Dalhousie has complained of many of the emigrants having arrived in a bad state; do you understand that many of those persons who were in that state, have been persons who had friends in tliut country, and who had been induced by the representations of their friends to come out ? — Those that have gone out to their fricr.«ts have generally had money rcmittrd by their friends in America, or arrangements made to carry them out; toi instance, a person who has gone out to New York or to Upper Canada, writes to his friend ia Ireland to come out to him, and if he thinks he has not the means of coming out, he either sends him money, or makes some arrangement at his place of landing to assist him. 892. Does a great proportion of the emigrants consist of persons of tha) class ? — The greater proportion that go from the part of the country that I am acquainted with, are people in general of some property, and who have friends before them. 893. Is not the proportion of persons that arc landed at Quebec in a state of destitution, very small? — Very small, from the leason I have stated; in fact we cannot call the emigrants that pass through Quebec a pauper emigration. 894. If the governor in Canada had Uie power of making a small advance, to tlie extent of 20s. or 25s. to each person well disposed to work, to carry bim up the country, do you suppose that a relief to that extent might remove tlie pressing scenes of distress to which you allude ? — It might with the present extent of emi- gration, but if it were to go to any lai:ge extent, the tiling would be quite impossibly and great distress would ensue. 895. Do you consider that the class of persons who loiter about the town of Quebec taking any casual employment they can get, are generally a very improvident class of emigrants ? — It is generally the worst class of emigrants that loiter about the towns. 896. Do you not think that if that worst class of emigrants were taken ap the country and located and assisted, they would become steady and industrious persons? — No doubt if they were taken up the country immediately after they were landed, they would become valuable settlers. 897. Docs much inconvenience arise from many of the settlers arriving at the bad season of the year ? — They seldom arrive in a bad season, they generally arrive in May, June and July. 898. Would there nut always be a certain number, of any mass of poor emigrants that would go out, that would remain in a destitute state about the port at which they disembarked, whatever might be the encouragement that might exist for their settlement in the interior of the country ? — I do not think that tiiey would to any extent, for during the passage they make up a kind of friendship and a kind of intimacy, so that they rarely wish to separate ; I have seen instances of persona goiag o!it, whose views of settlement were totally different on going on board, who the to*, the any tliat lend ieb«c, ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM; 1837. 77 who in the course of their voyagn nmalgamated, and all went togcllier, upon their landing. 89(). Is liirre not a certain refuse of indolent or incapable persons who are not able to provide for tliemit'lves, and who alwuytt hang about the ship port at tvhich they lend ? — A great number; I have Keen people thtit were very opposite to industry at liome, become at once, from necessity, very industrioui there : I have seen lounging drunken characters in Ireland, gladly sit down to break stones in Canada. 900. Keeping in view that there must always be a great number of helpless persons out of a largo body of cmigriuits, what number of emigrants do you suppose could be passed in the course of a year through Quebec into Upper Canada, without serious inconvenience to the town of Quebec itself?— I should think if there was any proper arrangement made for tlieir reception, there could be no mconvenience whatever ; they need not land in Quebec at all, they cotdd send any number of people up the St. Lawrence without having any intercourse with Quebec at all. 1)01. You stated, tiiat the. emigrants you have spoken of have generally some little property ; witli respect to those that go out with families, what amount of property do they take with them, upon an average r — I .should think those that emigrate from Ocrry with families will have from 30/. to 50/. upon an average; I have known fnmiliis have tivc hundred pounds. go2. Do they take it out generally in money ? — Generally in cpecie. 903. You have spoken ot a law m the United States prohibiting the landing of poor eniigiants ; even if that law were not c\nded, is not any man depositing three dollars, thou<;h he should be possessed of nothmg else, entitled to land under the provisions ot that law ? — As the law at present stands, he is ; but I presuu)e, if there was any increase of pauper emigrants, the mayor and corporation of New York would .soon increase the amount required. 904. Are you aware that any poor persons arcin the habit of making an agreement to repay the passage money by an engagement for their labour after their landing r— That was the case to a very small extent some years ago in the north of Ireland, especially in the case of servants, but it i.*; entirely done away with. 905. Do you think it is at all the practice at present? — I believe not in the north of Ireland. qo6. Are yon able to say whether it is the case in any other part of Ireland ? — I think not 907. Do you conceive that captains very often break their engagements with poor emigrants, as to the ports at which they are to be landed?— I have known instances of passengers b^'irg landed at St. John's in New Brunswick, who had engaged their passage for Phdadelphia. i;iq. 3 March, iili7. MartiSy 6* die Martii, 1827. IVUliam Bowman Felton, Esq. called in ; and Examined. go8. YOU were examined before the Committee of this House which sat upon the subject of Emigration in last year ? — I was. 909. The Committee understand that you have been in Canada since, and that you took out with you the Report of that Committee, and the evidence annexed to it, so as to have an opportunity of informing yourself with respect tc all the de- tails mentioned in that evidence, during the course of the last wmter?— I have had opportunities of verifying many of the facts detailed in that evidence, and I have had occasion, not only from what I have seen in Lower Canada, but in the adjoin- ing parts of the United States, to be confirmed in my opinion of the ability of a poor settler, possessing health and industry, to purchase wild lands, pay for them with facility, and accumulate property in the course of a very few years. 910. Are you aware that the part of the subject of emigration upon which it is perhaps most necessary to obtain accurate and conclusive information, is that which relates to the progressive success of the emigrant, involving the ques- tion of his entire capacitj or probable inability, at the termination of the seventh year of his location, to pay nve per cent interest, redeemable at any time at his own option by a payment of the. principal of 100/. or any less sum which may have been advanced to him, for the expenses of his emigration? — I am per- fectly aware that some doubts are entertained upon that subject on this side the Atlantic ; but I am also equally aware that there are no doubts whatever enter- m- K 3 tained IV. B. Felton, Esq. G March, 1817. 7B MINIITKS ()l< KVIDKNCK llliFOKE SRI.ECT COMMITTER M«rrh, - > tamed upun tlu- Hiilijnct on tht; other Hide ot'tlio Atlantic, hy practical men intimately ucquuiuted with the interior of thn provincr. 91 1. It'ancmiifrant, being unable-bodied iimn, and landing withe wife and three children, be removed from tliu place of his landing; to the place of bin location, located on a lot of looucrcH ofaveruKt) good lund, provided with aNiii.on the 35/ alao, and generally aomothing more in return for tuv iuatalment. 916. Then the whole amount of intereat that they paid waa the intereat upon the aum of 45/. to .^0/. advanced to them at aetting out, and tbia they were able to pay at the end of two or throe yeara r— That baa been the caae in the moat uu- favourable inatancea which have fallen'under my obaurvation. 917. la it upon those grounds that you calculate the ability of actUera sent out by government, at the expiration of aeven years to commence paying interest upon the sum of inu/. ainiilurly advanced? — Not solely upon those grounds, but from what I have hud occasion to observe in other parts of the province, where men newly arrived in the province, without any previous character to cntilla them toru advance, aiul without any advance or loan, have purchased land ut the aamc rates, und where, at the expiration of three years, they have been able to commence a repayment of the principal or of the capital. It ia nccesaary for the Committee to understand that in all tnose cases those operations took place in a partially set- Ued country, whereas the settlers eatabliahed uuder the patronage of government have been sent into a wilderness. Now, although the land occupied by the settlars to whom I firat alluded was itself a wilderness, yet, relative to the adjoining coun> try, it was more favourably circuiustunced than the lands which must necessarily bt occupied by any cniigrutiou carried on on an extenaivc scale by the government. 918. For what reason do you consider the emigrants sent out by government ton its improvement. 933. You are undentood to say, that it it your opinion that IQO acres, in 337. " L ' ' ' order W. B. FeUiM, Esq. 6 Much, 1S17. I> ! jy. B. Fdloit, E«,. 6 ftlarrh, 1837. ri' »» MimJTES OF EVIDBWCfe^ BKPiRB SSLE^t COMMTTi'KiS order to be accepted as a suiBcient ecurity by an American lending the sum of money required upon it, must possess these two qualifications, it must have a vater communication to a market, and it must be situated within a population of a gi.en density 2 — ^Those two qualities will make the estate sufficiently valuable to justify any man's advance of capital upon it; but as far as an American is concerned, I con- ceive that the spirit of my first answer, properly interpreted, means to say, that you shall also make him secure that this property shall be available at any future time. 933. Then what additional qualification would be required to make this a suf- ficient security for a loan of money by an American or any other foreigner? — Thfe difficulty with respect to a foreigner is, that you can give him no security that the property shall be available in case of hostilities. 934. Would a citizen of the United States require security as an alien ; that is, would he require security for the repayment, or would he require securihr that he should be able to put the laws in force for the recovery of his debt? — He would require both. 935. If an emigrant settler now doing well in Canada, were to be asked his opinion upon the two following points, viz. First, Whether he would recommend an Irish pauper without employ and without hopes of . employ, now residing wretchedly in Ireland, with a wife and three children, to come over to Canada and be planted upon one hundred acres, and to make himself liable to the payment of such interest, commencing at the expiration of seven years, such payment to be made in kind, if money be not forthcoming, the emigrant not having the fee-simple of such property until the debt of his emigration was discharged ; or. Secondly, Whether he would recommend him on the contrary, in case of free conveyjince being afforded to him, to land without any capital being lent to him, and conse- quently without any pledge of repayment, and to trust for employment to auch demand for his labour as might exist at the time of his landing ; — in the event of these two questions being put to the prosperous settler now in Canada, clearly comprehending their import, do you suppose that he would recommend the ac- ceptance of such assistance, involving such ultimate payment by interest rederai- able at will, or the contrary proposition ? — I am quite certain, from my experience and observation, that in all cases the recommendation would be given to prefer the assistance of government, supposing the partj' circumstanced precisely as is stated in the question ; for if there be a slight variation, it will perhaps occasion a very great diversity of opinion ; if, for example, a man at this moment in utter distress in Ireland, is master of a certain art or profession, which is known to yield high wages in Canada, his friends, unacquainted with the circumstances of the country, would prefer recommending him to place himself at the spot where his labour could be so bcnt^ficially employed, in preference to binding himself to perform any certain duties for the sake of 1 00 acres of land, because there are few artificers in active employment in either of the provinces who do not acquire the means of purchasing land in a situation which is more agreeable to them tbau that which would probably be afibrded by government for locations, by the accu- nralatiou of his wages in ue course of three or four years. 936. The Committee are then to infer from your answer, that in the case of purely agricultural settlers, not capable of following any pursuit other than agri- culture, that recommendation would be given ; but in the case of a superior class of settlers, who are capable of undertaking other trades or pursuits, it might be doubtful ? — I am of opinion that in the case of agricultural settlers, even suppos- ing them to be much better circumstanced than the parties described vx t'le ques- tion, the recommendation Would be to take the government assistance. At this moment, I have remittances from nine families of Irish settlers, to convey to their friends in Ireland ; but I have a request at the same time from those families, in the event of government sending out setders on any terms whatever, to retain the money for the benefit of the remitters, and to use my influence to have those people embarked under the protection of government. The persons making those remittances are men who commenced, from four to seven years since, with abso- lutely nothing but their clothing and habits of labour, and who now remit 15/. each for the conveyance of relatives in Ireland, none of whom are stated by them to be in distress ; therefore, I consider that a superior ciass of persons to those described in the question would in all cases be advised to accept the assistance of govern- ment, afforded them in the manner proposed. 937. The exception, then, that you wish to make rtlther applies to the case of artisans:' ON EMiG^fioir m>n tas vvmm kingdom . 1 827. 83 case of artisans ? — To the case of artisans alone, and those being perfect in tlieir respective trades. 938. Might i^ not be easily arranged, in a system of emigration, thivt any arti- san so emigrating without any capital, might repay the expense of his passage by some arrangement to be made in the way of binding himself apprentice for a certain time ? — I apprehend that will only burthen the stents with unnecessary details in the Qc^duct of the operation ; v>e fipd no practical difticulty from want of artisans in the country. 939. Supposing that under the most successful plan you can suggest for emigra- tion, 6,000 families were sent by the government to a particular district, such as you have described in Canada tor low ''ian, and located there, at what expense do you calculate that the interest of the money upon the loans proposed to be made to them might be collected ; and in the event of the payment being made in kind, what arrangements could be devised for the collection of such payment ? — I am afraid that any opinion I should give the Committee upon that subject, not being grounded on experience, would be little satisfactory ; I do not profess myself competent even to judge of the difficulties that will arise hereafter, but I appre- hend that they will not be great ; and judging from the expense attending the collection of the seigneural dues in Lower, Canada, 1 should conceive they would not exceed fifteen per cent upon the gross sum. The Committee must understand that all wages of labour in those provinces are high, and that a merchant even, in acting as a commission merchant, takes in the Canadas five per cent for perform- ing what in other countries is done for two and a half. Therefore, if the collection of a territorial revenue in any country in Europe can be made for seven and a half per cent, it will certainly require twice as much in Canada. 940. In the case that is supposed, namely, that you have a collection to make, from six thousand separate families, of a sum of 1 ,8on /. per annum, at what expense do you consider that that sum might be regularly collected ? — I have no experience to direct me, except that which I derive from the collection of seigneural dues in Lower Canada, and the result of that I have already mentioned ; any other opinion will be perfectly gratuitous, having no certain data to go upon. 941. Are the seigneural dues in Lower Canada collected chiefly in kind? — About two thirds are collected in kind, the rest in money. 942. Are they collected in kind although stipulated for in money, or are they stipulated for in kind ? — They are stipulated for in kind and in money. 943. Is it common to receive in kind compensation for those which are stipulated for in money?— Never ; on the contrary, it is frequently the practice to receive money in lieu of the payment in kind. 944. With a deduction of a per centage? — ^Without any deduction to the tenant. 945. Arc not the great bulk of lands in Lower Canada so held ? — The great bulk of the cultivated land in Lower Canada is held in seigr.eurie. 946. Are you able to state the proportion of expense which is to be deducted from the amount of those <»cigneural dues, for thfc collection of th^m? — Not with accuracy; it varies exceedingly, according to the fertility of the seigneurie in wj^ich the collection is made ; in a rich seigneurie there is no difficulty in making the collection, in 1 poor one there is a great deal, and therefore the expense is con- siderably increased. 947. In the case of an emigiation upon an extended scale, in which a large district were colonized at once, the communications carried on through that district, and the settlers placed at a reasonable distance from each other, do you not imagine that the expense of such a collection would be much less than it would be with respect to r more desultory and scattered emigration ? — Unquestionably it would. 948. How would you estimate the difficulties of collection in the case just put, as compared with the old setded seigneuries in Lower Canada? — I think the difficulty of collection would be less, and for this reason, that it is proposed that the interest should be made payable in produce, and determinable whenever the individual thinks proper to pay the principal ; now this holds out so flattering a prospccv of becoming perfectly an absolute master of hie property, that it is a moral stimulus to keep the tenant attentive to his annual pay m ants. 949. Are theru at present in Upper Canada any considerable number of settlers hoMing tlieir lands upon that principle? — I apprehend not; I am not much acquainted with Upper Canada, but I apprehend there are very few landi held on the paymcAt of not w^wtever. S37. h a When If. B. FeUm,. El). March, 1 • ;r. B. Ftltun, Etq. 3^^B 6 March, 1897. 84 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 950. When you say there are very few lands held on the payment of rent, do you mean to say that there are few lands held upon the settler having given his bond for the payment of the principal ? — The majority of the lands that have been purchased or acquired by purchase in Upper Canada are held liable to the payment of the principal and interest, bui the bond is not given by the purchaser; on the contrary, the original proprietor retains the title to the land, giving a bond to the purchaser to furnish him with a deed whenever the purchase-money be totally paid up. 95 1 . That agreement is founded upon the system of the purchaser paying in- terest until he redeems the principal ; do you know whether tiiat interest is gene- rally regularly paid ? — I have not sufficient personal acquaintance with the Upper Province to answer the question with the precision I ought to do ; but in the Lower Province I can answer for it being so. 952. In answer to a former question, you said that the general opinion in Canada was, that after sixteen months probation, as you termed it, the demand in the United States would carry the settlers there ; what is the nature of the demand yoy there alluded to?— I state the opinion as existing, I do not pretend to give reasons for it. 953. What is the nature of the demand that you alluded to? — Employment in working the canals and other great public works. 954. Although labourers from England and Ireland may from time to time find advantageous employment imtiiediatcTy upon landing in the Canadas without money or capital, and ultimately become prosperous settlers, must not that employment depend upon the demand existing at the moment for the services of such labourers ; and if the supply of labour were too great, would not that employment be out of the question ? — There can be no dcubt that for two or three years there will be great difficulty in finding employment; for a very extensive voluntary emigration ; by ex- tensive voluntary emigration I mean from fifty to sixty thousand souls per annum ; we know that the ordinary emigration, which has usually amounted to ten thousand souls, has found very litUe difficulty in placing itself, whether in the Canadas or in the United States is a matter of indifference, but it has found very little difficulty in placing itself. Latterly, it is true that on their first landing some little inconve- nience has been experien^^ed at Quebec, from the sick and destitute who formed a part of the emigration, and inconvenience has also been experienced during the winter season from a large portion of those who have found employment during the summer being thrown out of work ; but as both those evils are necessarily limited, one by the demand during summer, which can only employ a certain number of men at Quebec, and consequently can only leave that number of men to be tirown out of employment at the commencement of winter, and the other, although not limited, yet relieved by the arrangements made under public authority lor the reception of the sick in the Emigrant Hospital at Quebec, I do not conceive that any inconvenience will be felt by the continuance of an emigration not exceeding the ordinary average of the last five or six years ; but if, as I before said, it were increased indefinitely without public assistance, then unquestionably there would, for the first three or four years, be great distre^; but I firmly believe that if fif^ thousand souls could be continuously introduced annually, in the course of three or four years they would contrive to place themselves either in the provinces or in the adjoining United States, but always with some distress for the first two or three years, and it would be a dangerous experiment to try, without some preparatory measures of rehef. 955. Do you think the distress would cease after the first three or four years? — I have no doubt it would, because we found, when 1 0,000 arrived, for the first two or three years great distress ; but those 1 0,000 have scattered themselves over the Erovince and over the United States, and they furnish places of refuge, if it may e so termed, to the in-coming population ; at the same time I am firmly persuaded l»t very great distress would be found for the first two or three years, perhaps rr, much so rs han'ly to justify the direction of so great an emigrant popula- tiit) r> ■ay gr^en province, without taking some preparatory steps for their recept* t:.. ^ 056. ijin.oytr.oDt ut Quebec oeing only during the summer, has perhaps contributed ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa;. 85. contributed to increase the number who were left destitute on the approach of winter. 957. With how small a sum would an emigrant coming out to Quebec be enabled to settle himself, without being subject to that great distress you have described ? — If I am to take this question in combination with the previous ques- tions, and to suppose that the number of settlers that come out is to be unlimited, 1 should say he will require a very large sum to place himself advantageously, certainly 1 5 /. a head for each oi his family ; but if the number of settlers is to be limited to the annual average of the last few years, then as his labour will be in demand, he requires a very small advance to gain his bread and subsistericc; ; but to establish himself as a farmer, he requires at least twenty or thirty pounds for himself and his family. Q.'jS. Does he require as much as twenty or thirty pounds a bead? — Certainly not; the terms of the proposition assume that he gains full employment as a labour- ing man during the progress of his establishment. 9.59. The question contemplates a man arriving at Quebec and not looking to obtaining employ iiient; what is the smallest sum with which he could establish himself advantageously ? — To state the precise sum which would enable a settler to establish himself according to the question proposed, would deceive the Com- mittee, because the facility of establishing himself in this manner will necessarily be governed by the number of settlers arriving at the same time ; and therefore the question applied to a single settler, supposing only one settler arrives in a year, would be answered in a very different way to what it would be if 60,000 settlers arrived in a year. 960. Supposing that reasonable number to arrive which you think could be lo sett'ed without>material inconvenience? — I have already stated, that supposing the ordinary annual average to arrive, that is about 1 0,000 souls, no money is required for a man who can get into employment during the summer. 961 . The question is with respect to a man not looking to get employment ther^, but supposing him to be landed at Quebec, what would be the expense at which that man could locate himself upon his land and put himself into an advantageous situation ? — Making allowance for the varying circumstances to which settlers are exposed, I conceive that a man, with a family consisting of a wife and two children, can place himself very advantageously in any part of the provinces for 50 /. ; if he does it for less, 1 mean if he does it with the possession of less money, he will still have to borrow or to get an advance in some shni-e to make up that tmount ; or if he does not get that advance, he vnW still have to devote a certain number of days labour in each week for the acquisition of provisions and tools that cost him a hundred per cent more, gained in that way, than they would other- wise cost. 962. Do you mean when he is upon the spot? — When he i^• upon the spot, and in a partially settled country ; this I conceive to be the average expense under the average of circumstances. 963. You state that a perse a arriving there without any money^t all, by getting work on the canals that were going on in the United States, afterwards round the means of settling himself? — That is very frequently the case. 964. You are understood to- state thai emigrants have arrived there in con- siderable numbers, and in coit»eqAence of a canal that was cutting in the United States, a number of those persons worked upon that canal till they got a sufficient sum of money to settle themselves either in the United States or in the Canadas? — It has very frequently occurred that settlers have collected sufficient capital to commence their operations, by the wages gained during one summer's good work on those canals ; but it does not follow that tncir establishment was perfect, they were obliged to work out the next summer, and the next summer after that, to placf 'heir families in as independent a situation as they would be in if they had bee furnished with twelve months provision in the outset. 965. If the English government should carry on any similar work in the Ca- nadas, of course a considerable number of emigrints niay also dispose of them- selves by the wages of labour which they may obtain on such works ? — Unquestion- ably they might, and to much greater advantage than by gaining an equa) sum ot money in th^ United States, for this simple reason, that the habits of life acquired in the United States are not favourable to accumulation of money ; a man who fiasses the whole summer at work upon the canals in the United States learns to ive as an American, and he expttnds as much subsistence in the course of a week, 237- L 3 io IV. B. FtHtH, E*q. 6 March, 1837. 86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE jy. B. Felton, 6 March, 1(97. ,i!i in the su)K)ort of himself individuaily, as woald support the whole of his family ; whereM if he never removes out of the Canadas into the United States, he retains the habits of frugality that he carries v\rith him from Europe, and instead of eating three flesh meals a-day, accompanied with tea and cream, and so on, lie will h« satisfied with a small quantity of meat and other inferior food sufficiently nourish- ing and wholesome for his purpose, but unaccompanied with the expensive com* forts of an American meal ; he will therefore be richer by thirty or forty per cent, at the end of the year, than he would be if he had gone to the United States. 966. Are you aware that a considerable work is going on between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario, in the Canadas? — I understand theWelland Canal is going on there ; I am not personally acquainted with that part of the country. 96'/. If the Welland Canal is carried on, will not there be a considerable quan- tity of work for emigrants to avail themselves of for the purpose of working on it during the summer, and to enable them to locate themselves in the winter, either immediately in the neighbourhood of further in the interior ? — There can be no doubt about it 968. Can you state from your own knowledge the amount of the sums which have been extracted in the form of charity from the resident inhabitants of Upper and Lower Canada, and have been applied to the relief of those unfortunate {Persons who, having left Great Britain or Ireland without capital or means of supporting or assisting themselves, have landed in the Canadas, in the expectation of fincnng employment there, and who finding no demand for their labour have consequently, in the first instance at least, been exposed to a severe degree of misery and destituv tion? — My answer will not apply to Upper Canada, I have no knowlede^e of it there ; as to Lower Canada, I have reason to believe that the inhabitants of Quebec and Montreal have been called upon, for every year since 1822, and have made large contributions for the relief of the emigrant population ; those contributions, I believe, exceeded 800/. a year for each city; but, in addition to them, the Assembly of the province have annually granted a sum of money, for they have always been alive to the call of humanity, for the support of an Emigrant Hospital at Quebec. In the year 1823, they granted 750/., in 1824, 600 L, in 1825, 700/., 101826,950/.; and I believe that those sums have been found adequate to the support of the sick and infirm landing at Quebec, because I observe by the returns of the magistrates superintending that Emigrant Hospital, that only 230 persons were ad- mitted in the course of one year, and I conceive the average of the whole four years not to have exceeded 2,;o persons admitted annually. His Majesty's government at home, on the first appearance of this great migration, at the suggestion I believe ofLordDalhousie, gave 1000/. for the relief of ^ose emigrants. Now, the distress which has been experienced in those towns has resulted from the introduction of about 1 0,000 souls annually, and the relief required would not have amounted to more than 3000/. annually, in the Lower Province ; but if the emigration were increased, the distress for some years would certainly bear a much greater propor- tion to the absolute number introduced than it has done hitherto, when the numbe* has been nited to 10,000 ; for example, if 15,000 poo>' emigrants were thrown upon the Lower Canadas, of a description perfectly similar to those who have been hitherto introduced, I conceive that, instead of 3,000/. sufficing to relieve their wants and distresses, it would require 6 or 7,000/. and perhaps in a greater pro- portion, as it increased, for some years. 969. Do you not imagine, if an extensive emigration were to be carried on apon the principle of planting, that in a very few years an almost indefinite supply of that class of emigrants might be received and absorbed ? — I have bo doubt whatever that the means of providing for the casual emigration hereafter, in con- sequence of the establishment oi' their friends by the aid of government, would be infinitely increased. If any distress were to be felt by the introduction of a Wger population not under the protection of government, who I take for granted will go out in the same seasons when the emigration supported by government takes place, provided vessels can be found to convey tliem, I have no doubt that that distress would be met by the legislature of the province with perfect readiness, and that it might bo compensated to them by the admission of a certain quantity or the whole of the surplus grain of the Lower Province into Great Britain free of duties. To explain myself, 1 mean to say that I have no doubt that the legislature of Lower Canada would take upon themselves to relieve all the distressed objeol* that may arrive in the province, in consideration of this boon being afforded to them i and that this boon need not be of great magnitude, it would /be vory.ewjr been ON IlMlGRATIOW FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM : 1827. 87 no to show. I have no doubt that the free admission of ioo,oOo quarters a year, for ten years, would induce tlixt legislature, if it were made conditional, to unflertake to relieve the individual pubhc and His Majesty's Government from all expense which may arise from sickness or distress attending the introduction of any number of emigrants in the province ^ I mean in addition to those that are to be cu'ried out at the public expense, because I assume always, that, send out whatever number you may at the public expense, there still will be a certain voluntary emigration, m addition to them, provided the means of transport exist. g'jo. Do you mean, that if the government proceed upon a regulated system of pauf>er emigration to which they lend aid, that that would be likely to be accom- panied by another emigration going out by its own means? — I mean to say that it would be accompanied with an increased emigration. I take for granted, that the government cannot remove all those that are desirous of emigrating ; I take for granted, that their means are not adequate to it at present ; and I take for granted, that the tonnage of the country going out to Canada in ballast, that with regard to economy ought to be employed in that specific occupation, is only at this moment, I conceive, sufficient for the transport of 60 or 70,000 souls ; but if the number were to be increased greatly beyond that amount, it would be quite insufficient. 97 if Will not that difficulty impede the voluntary emigration? — It will operate to the extent of an increase of expense ; but still there will be a great number go *but. 97a. Not paupers? — Not paupers, and not capitalists. The distress which has been felt at Quebec has been partly occasioned by the accidents to which all ex- tensive emigration must be subject ; when I say that only 250 have been received into the hospital, I should mention that in many cases families are left destitute ; the emigrants who go, generally take wi^h them 3, 4, 5, 6, or 8 or 1 o children, and if the father of the family dies in the passage, his wife and his children are lefi destitute, and it frequently happens that, in addition to their destitution, they are troubled with sickness. 973. You have stated the number of persons that have been received into the hospital at Quebec, and the amount which it has cost to provide for them during late years ; has not that been upon what you consider to be the worst possible system of emigration, namely, that of persons going out without any previous pro- vision or arrangement, to provide for themselves as they can ? — It has. 974. And the result of that has been, that out of an average annual emig itiuii of 10,000, only 2. "JO have found their way into the hospital? — That is the r . u!' ^ but more have required relief during the winter, able-bodied men, and it is for the relief of those persons that the towns have been burthened, men who have been improvident, have not laid by any money for their sustenance during the winter, although they were in the receipt of very large wages during the summer. 975. Of those 10,000 persons that have gone out, all the desfitute and impro- vi^nt among them have been relieved for the annual sum of 3,000/. ?— I conceive that 3,000 / has been about the average sum collected. 976. You were understood to say, that you thought the best possible mode of location was to take 300 families, and to give them a place where they might have communication by water, with a market for their produce ; and also to give them good land,incontra-distinction to other land? — I stated, that to give the capitalist any confidence in the repayment of the money that he might advance for the establishment of settlers, it was necessary to guarantee to him that tliose circum- cnmstances should be ensured in carrying the settlement into effect. 977. That there should be an union to the extent of three hundred families?— To make it sure to the capitalist that their land would be sufficiently valuable to cover the amount of his advance ; and as a corollary, I should say that tiiat is the best mode of settlement. 978. What do you suppose would be the sum necessary to enable a person to take out three hundred families, and locate them in the country ? — That will depend upon so great a variety of contingencies, that I should very much deceive the Com- mittee if -I were to give an off-hand opinion upon the subject, it would require so many details, which are necessary elements in the calctUation ; I should require to take a long time to make the thing intelligible. 979. What would it cost a person, having a relation settled in the country, to transport himself, and to bring himself into contact vnxix that relation ? — That depends upon his distance from the seaport ; the facilities afforded hy meeting a friend established in the countrr are so great, that I should say, if a man is once 337. ' L 4 put 4k IK. B. FekM, Etq. 6 March, 1837. I 88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ly. B. Felton, Eiq. 8 March, 1847. r«pL /. D. Wtatknhy. U .,.. ' 8 March, 1837. Eut down in his friend's family, or next door to that friend, supposing that friend to e established in the country, and to be able to raise food enough to assist the new comer, the expense will be governed by the price of the food that he can lend him, and that again will be governed by the situation. 980. If you were consulted by a person under those 'circumstances, what would you tell hjm he might go out for ? — I should have to ascertain the expense of the freight in the first place ; supposing him to be put down in Quebec, which we are 4old can be done for thirty shillings, but which I believe requires three pounds, he will then have to furnish himself with food for as many days as it will require to reach the place of his destination ; and then if he adds to that upon the average about two-pence halfpenny a mile for travelling expenses, that will cover the journey ; and therefore if a man were to come to me, and say, 1 have a friend in such a township, in such a province, I could tell him within fif- teen-pence what would be the expense of going to him ; but if the man were to say, 1 have a friend a mile from Quebec, I should tell him the expense is only the freight to that port. . 981. Could any inconvenience, in your opinion, arise, or would any uncertainty of success be involved, in the case of any number of emigrants planted ai>^ loca- ted according to the system adopted in the emigration ofi823und 182.5; would the extent of the number affect their succes.s, provided that, in point of fact, mpins did exist for planting and locating them upon the principle of advanced capital, according to the precedents of 1 823 and of 1 825 ? — None whatever ; I conceive that the facilities of planting emigrants will increase with their numbers, and that in carrying on the operation in future the expenses will be very much diminished. As to the extent of the success, I believe that tlie more numerous the establishment, the greater chance there is of ultimate success, because they form a dense popu- lation, capable of assisting each other in all public works and works of magni- tude that may be ' seful for the general interest ; and as to their markets, a large .lumber ofemigrh..i3 established together will inevitably be accompanied with a subdivision of labour, useful to every individual interested in the settlement. Jwis, 8* die Martiu 1827. Captain James Dent Weatherley, called in ; and Examined. lef^ 982. HOW long is it since you left Canada? — lu the middle of .January 1 home, in the township of March, on Ottawa River, in Upper Canada. 983. You were residing near what is generally known by the name of Mr. Ro- binson's settlement in 1 823 ? — Yes, I reside near that settlement ; and frequently passed through it in going to the sessions at the district town of Perth. 984. What in. p. 2Ssion has been created in your mind, as to the success of that settlement? — Tht settlers seem to be getting on extremely well with their im- provements; I thiuk I could venture to say, without any exception ; I know of no exception. 985. How long have you resided in Canada ? — Nearly eight years. 986. Has your attention been called to a point which has furnished a good deal of discussion and consideration, that is, tlie capacity of the settler to repay the capital advanced for his location, upon the principle of paying interest upon that money so advanced, redeemable at will, and commencing at the period of seven years after his first location; for example, supposing that 100/. were necessary to locate a man and woman and three children, upon a location of an hundred acres, and to give him all that assistance which is necessary to put him in a con- dition to go on by himself; -would a settler so located, in your opinion, be enabled, without difficulty, to commence the payment of interest at five per cent upon that 100/. 'o advanced for his location, at the termination of seven years ? — I have not the least doubt of it. 987. Do you think he would be able to do it in money or in kind ? — At a much earlier period he would be able to do it in kind; but I think he would then, that is to say in seven years, be able to do it in money. 988. In giving that answer, you have reference to yoar own personal observa- tion of the condition and circumstances of that class of persons ? — From living very near them ; frequently passing through that part of the country, seeing them and other settlers when they first go upon their lands, and secing.them at the ex- pirttion of five or six years ; and, judging from the improvements they make in the ' extent ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 89 extent of clearing their ground and their buildings, I have not the least doubt that the progressive improvcnient:^ that they make wouM enable them at the end of five years to pay in kind the interest of the money. 989. Do you think that the o|iinions of persons who hiive directed their atten- tion to this part of the subject in Upper Canada, would coincide with yours upon this subject? — I have not the least tloubt of it. 990. Are you of opinion, that if it were properly explained to the settler, pre- viously to his leaving this country, that he would be called upon to repay the Qiorfey so advanced to him, there would be any objection on his part so to repay it, or any practical difficulty in levying it? — I think 1 'jt. 991. If one of Mr. Robinson's settlers were to be usked by a friend of his in Ireland, whether he would advise him to accept government assistance, subject to this principle of repayment, or to take his chnuce in that country without such assistance, are you of opinion thut the 'nd th«n to quit hi* location at the time when .837. M the Capt. J. D. tVtntktrlty. \ 1 U Mari'h, 1897. J.D, Ciipt. WtnthftltM. 8 March, (JO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE REFORE SELECT COMMITTEE the rent became due, that the improved conditiun of that land, takin(^ into comi- deration all the circuni.stanccH of its intrinsic improvement and of iU bcinp; Hur- rounded by improved land belonging to other settlers, would be a fair security for the capital advanced? — I have no doubt uf it. 1006. If a man had been induiitrintisi for seven years, notwithstanding he were burthened >vith his debt of /|. luo, would it be his interest, having cleared his land, to remain on that land, subject to that deibt, or to go over to the United States if he could ? — It would be his interest to remain on his land, beyond a doubt. 1007. Although it was subject to the debt? — C^crtainly. 1008. Must not the success of those settlers depend upou their having a good market for the increased produce they may raise? — Undoubtedly; they easily obtain a sufficiency to support themselves and their families, but till a market ia found for the surplus produce, they are not induced to extend their improvements. 1009. Is there a market at present? — I think I may say there is at present, for those living near the rivers, a good market ; the surplus grain being taken by the lumberers, as they arc termed, the people who cut timber for the English and West India market. 1010. Since the Canadian corn was admitt(gd into this country, has there been a good market oren to them ? — No doubt. 1011. Has the alteration in the law, with regard to the admission of Canadjian corn into this country, been seriously felt in Canada ? — Very much so ; and we look forward also to the opening of the West India Islands to our produce, which would much stimulate the Emigrant settler to exertion. 1012. Is that intercourse now interdicted? — We have never enjoyed it ; it hat been in the hands of the Americans. It will be an excellent miirket for staves, rtnd horses and mules, and flour and pork. In fact it would induce the settlers to become very industrious. 1013. Do you conceive that a good market for the sarplus produce of the Canadas, whether of lumber or provisions, would be the most likely mode of ex- tending the successful industry of that country ? — Undoubtedly. lords Jnkn O'Driml, Esq. » ^^ I 8 March, I8a7, John O'Driscol, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 1014. YOU nre a resident in the .south of Ireland ? — I am. 1015. Have you had an opportunity of reading the Report and Evidence of the Emigration Committee of last year f— I read the Report. 1016. Have you directed your attention to the subject? — Very much. 1017. Ar^ you of opinion that in the case of a population redundant in the sense in which that term has been employed by the Committee, the expense of sustain- ing that population can be placed at less than 4/. per head? — Not less, I am sure ; I should place it at & little more than 4/. per head. 1018. In the case of a county in Ireland, in which it is adihitted that there are 1 ,000 persons, in the proportion of 200 men, 200 women, and 600 children, for whose labour there is no real demand, and from whose absence, if they were taken out of the country to-morrow, no sort of inconvenience would be felt with reference to any work executed by them, or any production, the result of such work, do you consider that the county in which such a population resides can be charged with less than 4,000/. a year, in some shape or other, for the maintenance of that popu- lation ? — There is no doubt that the county pays that in some jvay or other ; it is paid by the land. 1019. Are you of opinion, therefore, that in such a supposed case, to relieve that county of that surplus population, charging the county with a county rate for sixty years, or with some assessment equivalent to a county rate to the amount of 300 /. per annum, would be a most beneficial measure for the interest of the pro- prietors in that county ? — I would consider it so, certainly. 1 020. Have you had any opportunity of forming a judgment as to the disposi- tion which exists among the gentlemen in the south of Ireland to meet a propo- sition for Emigration with any contributions in any shape, for the purpose of carrying the measure into efl'ect? — I have conversed with a number of gentlemen, particularly that class in the county of Cork that are generally upon the grand juries, and they generally appear to me very anxious that some measure of this kind should take place, and they are very willing to contribute towards it, without having any specific plan upon the subject. 1031. Have you ever been able to ascertain to what extent any persoB or persons would ON EMIUIIATION FIIOM THE UNITED KINODOM : iSj;. 91 wouiil be rfody to ^o upon Hurh a pinn ; tor exampir, liow . Ii per head they would pay upon the population? — The wuy in which I have f^^nerally put it, wiu by propoHing u small tux to the amount of about a nhillinp; in the pound upon the county riite; such a tux would much more than cover the profK>seci ;)oo/. a year for i,ou'j nerNons. My own plan was, to propose that that tax of one shilling in the pounu upon the county rate should be divided between the tenant and th« landlord ; that the tenant Nliould be at liberty to deduct half, it' not the whole, from the rent of his landlord ; as both parties woidd be bcnetitcd, both partien would have » right to contribute. IU'22. Arc you of opinion that thi* grand juries in the counties of Ireland would be the proper source from whence any ariungement of this sort should proceed ?— 1 think the consent of the grand juries would bo very material, and I have no doubt of the consent of the grand juries, if he measure were explained to them ; I think it would be well however t(. have the authority of Parliament, enabling the grand juties to act, in case they should consent to such a measure. 1023. When does the grand jury of Cork assemble? — About the 30th of March. 1024. What contiguous counties would you select in the south of Ireland, in whicl/lhis question of emigration would be entertained with the deepest interest? — I would select the county of Cork, which is the county I am best acquainted witfi ; I think that Cork, and Limerick and Kerry, would all concur in the mea.sure, and, I have no doubt, all the counties of the south of Ireland. 102.'). Do you conceive that it would be likely that from the interest of land- lords, the Committee might calculate upon getting individual conditions of pro- vision for the remuneration toLe paid uy charging their properties? — I am sure some individuals would contribute, but there would be a difficulty as to the mode of raising that voluntary contribution ; I think a general measure would be more satisfactory, provided it were such a light measure as would not be felt. lO'iG. Has there not been a tendency exhibited in Cork, towards the establish- ment of something in the nature of a poor rate f — There was a strong disposition manifested uixm tne subject, which grew out of the very severe distress in Cork, which distress is considerably aggravated since that period. 1027. Was not that distress occasioned by a gTv..:t excess of population unem- ployed ? — Yes. ' '>a8. Was not that disposition to create a poor rate met by a very general ex^. .'Ssion of opinion, that a poor rate, intended to keep these people at ho le, would be utterly ruinous to the country ? — That waK the general impression ; public opinion was very much divided ; on the one hand they were pressed by the eiCessive porerty and misery of tlie people, on the other hand there was a great reluctance to incur a permanent tax of that description. loap. Was net there a general meeting held at Cork, under the pressure of extreme distress, which led to a sort of admission that & poor rate was necessary, or was advisable, in order to support that population ? — There was. 1030. Was not that immediately followed up by parochial meetings in Cork, in which a gicneral opinion was expressed that the property of the parishes would be utterly unequal to such support? — Tliat was the fact; the general meeting was a niiBeting to which atl persons were admitted, and they carried the question of the poor r&te by a very large majority ; afterwards, when the householders met in the parishes they were very geneially against it. 1031. Do you conceive that, as an alternative to that evil, owners of property in the county would, either by general taxation or by some arranged mode of contribution, be ready to meet the expenses of a measure of emigration ? — I am sure many would be very willinjir. 1032. Are you acquainted with the county of Limerick ? — I know many of the Sentlemen of the county of Limerick, but I have not much acquaintance with lat county. 1033. Are you acquainted with the tenants of the county to any extent? — Not a great deal. 1034. Are you not aware, from your general knowledge, that most of the disturoance that has prevailed in that county, and which more or less breaks out e^Cty now and then, has arisen from under-tenants dispossessed, whose resi- dence upon the ground is mischievous, not only to the principal landlord bat to die middle fanner of the country ? — I am sure it is the principal source of disturbance. 237. Mi 10J5. Do Joh» O'Driitai, 8 Murrh, I Kir. ^. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 1.1 ■U lii 12.2 2.0 us |4_q I 1 U - 1*^ 1 '-^ IJ^ ^ 6" ► HiotDgraphic Sciences Coiporalion m iV 23 WIST MAIN STRUT WIBSTIR.N.Y. MStO (7I6)S72.4S03 4^ ] m m ' ■ i m f 1 92 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Jo** O'Driuol, , 1035. ^o yo" ""'* conceive that a benefit, territorially, would be derived to the Ktq- proprietors, if they were to substitute a moderate tax upon their landfor the de- ^~ ^ ' duction from their profits which arises from a pauper population e^istinp who 8 March, p^y no rent? — Uundoubtedly, I think it would ; and I think they are nowbegin- '*''• ning to unuerstand that point pretty w^U. ^ . 1036. Are you of opinion that an^ong the numerous class of petitioning emi- grants In the south of Ireland, there would be any real objection on their part. to bind themselves, and to consent voiuntatily to the principle of repayment of the money advanced in their location, provided it.were 'simply and clearty^inade out to them, that it was only by such repayment that -they could obtain that assistance '( — 1 am sure there would be no' objectiou in the world ; the people are extremely . anxious to get away. If they had any prospect of repaying tlie money, they would have no difficulty in making themselves liable for it. 1037. Ate you decidedly of opinion that if that were duly explained to them, it would not present a serious objection to the reatization of a plan of Emigration ? — I do not think it would present any objection. 1038. Has the subject of Emigration occupied very general attention in Ii%land, as a means of relieving the distress and the inconveniences that . occur in that country from over population ?•«— It does at present occupy a considerable Vegree of attention amongst tne gentry. ' . . 1039.' ^ the attention of the gentry has been occupied in that way, do fon conceive that any general questions emanating from tl^is Committee to the Grand Juries in Ireland, would be likely to bring full "xplanations'and replies updftf tllat subject f— I. think it would be useful {o have such general questions proposed ; but I think it would be better if some person wene'to take those questions to' them, and were ready to answer such inquiries '^ the Grattd Juries %)ight make upon the subject. I ' " -^ **' "^^ 1040. Do you conceive that any p^fH»n'bieitt|f sent'to, Ireland ijithout such questions^ woulu be enabled to maV bis explaoati6li» in t'uch mi^ner as would bring the views oTthe Grand Juries in tndtom wtinuidrily under the view of this Committee?— fTiiai.wouljI depend upoo the'pelson wQd'wttf sent; I should think, if a proper person 1|ire feiit, there would tie no doubl of^ at alf. 1041. BKM dp ypa conceife^ that any^pr6|>er ptribn, who was seat without defined iha^otions, c- perty whichr has only a suni(;ient number of population, is very muoh injuEsd by a contigyous property which has too much. Ine pauper population of an ovel"- peopled estate prey upon the population of the neighbouring estate, which has not more than its due proportion of people ; titey live upon their charity, and &ften steal from them ; theV are a great nuisance to the heighbourhood ; and it would be lUttalf as great a relief to the estate that has not more than its proper population, to^ffet S'd of the wpcrabundant population upon ibe .Qeighbouring estate, as it woutcTto lat estate itself. I have found it to be the case in the country, that a neighbouring property over-peopled, was a great nuisance, , . ■ •/. 1043. Are you of opinion ttiat the gentlemen in the different counties of Ire* land, who might assess their property for the purpose of removing die over- abundant population, would take means, by their after mode of letting their lands, to prevent a recurrence of over number^ ? — I can only speak from what appe&Wi to h^ the very general feeling upon the subject; all the^entlemen I have conversed with, in the south of Ireland, are quite aware pf the necessity of t^ing such mea- sures, and mget of them are taking tlftm progressively, as it comes within their power to o sq. • r 1644. A I yovL 6f opinion that if ip the first instance a general charge was.made upon the county rates, for example, upon which the sum necessary for the contri- bution of that particular county was to be raised,' it would diminish any objection that might arise upon the part of persons who do not consider themselves indi- vidually so much benefited as others from the result of the emi^tton, if ,it were to' be part of the anrangement, that persons specidly benefited 'by having their . * . properties ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITEp KlfUQOOM: 18:27. 93 properties cleared of their surreptitious tefiautry, were to contribute, a certain sum per head, 2/. for example, which 2/. shoald be applied in purchasing up the county rate, so as to diminish it as a general tax upo^ tnat county ?«-I am sure that such an arrangement as' that would be considered a very fair one, and would take away any objection that 'might arise from the tax being too general. IQ45. Where does that . * ■ ^ ^ • 1055. InithO'Cas'e of tenfamiUe%%1dit propertions' of a man, a womavii ai|(|; threb children, costing, according lO^yovuf estimate, a6/. a' year to the pari^hi i)<> yon thinW that, provided ttip^e parties were.disposed to emigrate, the parish «F0i))d be g^a4 to ay&it tliem4i^tea>K>f l|n o^Dj^tuni^iQf removing th i-s parties by-emi^ gratiop, cfaamng their poolr j»8 with aa^ annuity for/%i y^ant, to t^ extent ^of y/Jfoteach tamny, air^i of rJbr)|Ament being passed/ pfdveittiog their* coming upon Uys parith^agaihl— They«WQuki»be ver^ glad ,to gtt riSI a^a gtoA many of tvenu Diit the parish hai a|^eatr4>fliculty in paying fh^ '^tes; there 4S some little uifcertainty about their continuii^upbn the parish f we have isertainly^ people of diat description who are'taaintaij^A^yMJ^ parish aAtri|ct( but i.um|jtiiej|Vould4^ wi|^ to pay ^charge of that description,'80oner wan thaith^r^wbolj^of the j^^raon should dqntinue upon then), because I consider it is a most. gr|wou^.thing. * ' 1056. You will understand that Uie partiea prdpOseffto 1:4 removfid must' be healthy persons, fit for labour, and within certain ages ; and they are l^tho coop list of the old and infirm ?—Certai|ily. . ; ♦ 1657. The Krcumstanies ({aalitying them to beco*^ emigrants in the view of t^e Committee, would be, tli%t thegT ^uld be -padpers, -and. that Uie^ shoul^ b^ d)|e bodied; if they were hatutaated to agricultural employment, so mi^^^ better { but if tKey w.ere abld!|>o^ed, ;the mere circumstance of their .JKi^J^ir- chaQics, Irould not of neceissity^isquaKfy them ?— I think, in that i;H9e» tfii^p|)fe would be very glad to comply with theiproposition that is made ; fl|i^k, iiPitbCH^ beenYor agricmturists only, there would be' some little question about it. 1^ have a great maijy mechanics that are great incumbrances/ suc^ as earpepten^, masons, tailors, and shoemakers, aijfd that sorf of people ; there is such a te^n- dancy of them, that thsy keep increasing yearly, and it destcpys the good inten- tions o'f those thkt would work.- They are put upon the road, a parcel .-Of them 237- M.3 together. Join Smitk, Eiq. 10 March, i8t7. 94 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Jo4» Smiti, ICiq. i kJ; IP March, Dr. Join Utrackwi. 13 March, 1817. together, they do nothina; at all ; they go in the morning just when they please, they will Hot go out at the proper time of day, and they go home almost whec they please, and they ere paid according to their families; they are paid as much as s man can earn when he goes to hard labour ; therefore a nnin that has been ia the habit of going to hard labour, says, 1 Will not go to work any longer, I will go upon the parish. 1058. Do yoQ think there would be any indisposition upon the part of those paupers, when the subject was fully expikined to them, to avail themselves ofemi* gration ? — I should think there would not ; L have no doubt several of them would be very glad of the opportunity of going. I have here a letter from a man that was iran.sported from Oundle, requesting his family to be sent to him, stating the great -comforts he is now enjoying. [The Wittiest delivered in the same, which was read, as follows:] ■, " South Creek, Sept. I4tfa, 182.5. " My dear Wife. — I have been anxiously waiting to give you some account of myself, and the country I am come to, but it was useless for me to give you hear- say account ; I have now seen enough to satisfy me it is far before Englan j, for a poor man and his family. When I landed in Sydney, I was taking on the stores by a Capt King of the Royal Navey, and sent to one of his estates at the South Creek, onthe great western road, and sun after removed to one estate of his over the Mountain, about 150 miles from Sydney, in. the district of Bathurst Plains, and have been a shepherd ever since ; my master and me agrees very well, and was my wife and family here, I should be as happy as any man in' the world. This pact of the country is very much like England — the winters and summers— and exceedingly healthy ; its a choise thing to bear of any one being ill." An I am now only a government man to Oapt. King, I have but little chance to do much good ; 10/. a year wages, and peck of wheat ttad 7 lb. of good beef every wk for oqr mess, — this is more than half the poor in England gettf ; but if I was a 6ree man, I could get land to till, and cattle. Good wages are always given to a honest and industrious man, your ratioa foutid yam, and a house too to live iii ; BO rent or taxes to eat up your earnings, and what a man gets, is Ihs own. Its now in your power to make us both happy for life, and btuig ip-oiir Httle ones under our own care. The government 01 England has seiit out to uli prisoners that have good charackter, to send for there wifes atid famtleys ;*and'OS sdn as dieay arrive, theay are to have there husbands given up to them ; so that if von cone, as I kuow you will, I shall be a free man, and you and the children will be seat oat fice of all expense, to be landed Jn' Syd^y*. I iiave tnade applicatioD to -my master, whois ageatf: here 'fop Capt. Kinf(,'^a Mr.'Hfeiyes, to give in a pettitionto government for yo« tor-come out by die first »)^ip diat edroes ; if you can htvag m stock of dolhs for the children, dpi I don't expect you #ill bring any thb^ but yourself andchildrenr. Ybu wiU'seOn be reoompeMied^for your jOumiy! >i%t voyage' I thought vftts diaeity of Ibe emigrant to refwy tnoney advanced to him for his loeation in Canada ?-^t did. 1061. Hmrfe you 'any itnaan, at this moment, to chan|;e your opinion upon that Sibject? — ^I ahi more convineed of it, from having exaidmed -the subject; I think that he conld pay the interest, and after the end 6f seven yearfbegitt to pay tho ioMdnents. * v^ ibda. Would these be any practical difficultv, in the colonies, in levying th it» first settlement, there are few persons therefore of capital in it U>7t. What is the rate of interest of money in Canada now ?— Six per cent. 1073. Is there B difficulty in getting a loan on good security upon pajrment of six per cent interest? — The difficulty is, that there are hardly any capitalists ; I Imow but of one or two. 1073. Is there any law in Canada respecting usury ?— 'The laws of usury of this country extend to the Colonies, but six per cent is made the legal interest there ; any l^ing more than that comes under the laws of this country ; the common law here has oeen adopted there. 1074. You do not think |tn individual of good character, arriving in Canada without funds, could raise money sufficient to enable him to cultivate one hundred acics, giving the land as a security ?^ I should think not generallv, because. the land tin qultivated is. of little value, but a person well known, a half pay-officer, at any person who had some other guarantee than merely land, might wtain it 1075. Do you think that if an individual were to land his money to a penon of c)iaracter, he would run any risk ?wl think not, and it is illustrated in tbia way; merchants and deders frequently give credit^ that amount in the way of buuneia, but they woidd not len4 themone^; they wiU supply articles to that amount^ and pediawmore, and expect to be paid merely fiom the produce of the land, Itnowing that the creditor has no other property but that. 237. M 4 1076. Do i I Dr. JuJU StratiM. 13 Mwcb, 1(37. 96 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE" BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 1 076. Do they in those cases take payment in kind ? — Generally in kind. 1 077. In flour ? — In flour, pease, wneat, cattle, and potash. 1078. You have no doubt, though there might be a difficulty io getting the money, that if the money were procured, the individual virould repay the interest which he stipulated to pa^, provided he were an industrious man? — Yes, he could, if industrious, easily pay it. 1079. How would he be enabled to pay it? — From the produce of his farm ; he would raise cattle and grain of various kinds. 1080. When would he be certain of finding a market ? — The difficulty of finding a market has been very roi.ch overrated ; there is hardly any part of the country, where one hundred settlers are established, but what a'merohant or trader imme- diately settles himself among them. 1081. Supposing there were one hundred settlers, each one must depend on the produce of his farm for the payment of his rent, must he not ? — Yes. 1082. Supposing there were ten thousand settlers, must not the same source of profit apply to all, or would they have any other means of payment than the produce of their farm? — No. 1 083. Supposing that there were an immense increase of agricultural produce arising from the settlement of ten thousand persons, do you think there would be the same certainty of procuring a market for the produce 0/ the farms, as there is at present? — I think a much greater certainty, for at present the quantity of produce exported from Canada is very inconsiderable ; the merchants of Lower Canada cannot undertake to supply the West Indies or the Fisheries ; but if the settle- ments were increased, and the produce was sufficient to supply the West Indies, and the Fisheries along the coasts of Nova Scotia and Labrador, the market would then be much more certain than at present. 1 084. You think there is no doubt that the West India market, and the fisheries, would take oS any surplus produce that could be reasonably calculated upon ? — Yes, for a very long time. 1085. Why should the merchant who takes the produce of the farm, and whom you say always attends a settlement of 1 ou persons, refuse to advance the money necessary for the cultivation of the farm, if he gets the land as a security ? — He is not a money-lender, nor a possessor of money ; he goes wi^h his goods to the settlement, to exchange them for produce ; he has no money capital, he is fre- quently very much indebted to the merchants of Montreal and Quebec for his goods, and commonly makes his payments in kind. iu86. You have mentioned that if 100 persons settle, the merchant follows them ; can you state what that merchant takes up to the settlement ? — Chiefly gproceries, hardware, salt, and clothing of various kmds. 1087. Is not salt a very material article there ?-^Ye8. 1088. And tools ? — Yes, tools for husbandry. 1089. From whom does the merchant who follows the settlers, draw the supply ? ->-The majority of merchants get it from Montreal; some of them have money, and go down and purchase cheaper, but the greater number get their goods on credit, and make returns in produce as they receive it from the settlers. 1090. What return do they make ; can you state the produce ? — The produce which merchants return is flour, pot-ash, pearl-ash, and salt pork ; they seldom tend wheat. 1091. In the evidence of Mr. Felton, he says he sold a great deal of land in the province of Canada to Irish and English settlers, at the rate of from three quarters of a dollar up to two dollars per acre ; that the land which he sold wm wh'jl'y uncleared, that it was perfectly in a state of wilderness, and in a majoritT of cases not even on a road ; that in many cases the settlers were burthened with a debt when they commenced their operations, amounting to 20 /. a family ; and that he never has experienced any difficult in collecting interest on the capital from them at the expiration of the second, uird and fourth year, and in a miyority of cases, before the expiration of the third year, he has received part of the principal in payment ; he adds, that in a majority of cases they borrowed pro- visions and implements from the neighbouring storekeeper to enable them to commence operations, expecting to pay those advances from the produce of their industry in the shape of ashes or prpvision, in the course of the next year ; now if the settlers settling in lands so circumstanced, namely, almost in a state of wilderness,. without money, * ave had no difficulty in borrowing from a neighbour- ing storekeeper such a sum as enabled them to commence their operations,- why do ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 97 do you think there would be any difficulty with settlen who commence their operations with much greater advantages (namely, in having their land surveyed, and probably on a road,) in borrowing money upon the mortgage of lands so circumstanced? — ^There is no money capital in the country. If they went to a storekeeper, they might at once get any article he had in the way of sale ; the word " borrow," should have been " purchased on credit those articles, which they repaid." The trader has a profit both on the articles he sells and the produce he receives, that is, he does not give the settlers «o much for their produce as they would have got if they had not been in his debt before. 1092. Would an honest man, having a free grant of land, be enabled to get from a storekeeper, upon credit, such implements and provisions as would enable him to start in the cultivation of his farm? — There would be some difficulty in regard to some of the emigrants ; unless the storekeeper considered them indus* tricus and active men, he would not trust them ; but persons who have been a year in the country, and know how to work and labour, would find no difficulty whatr ever ip obtaining necessary oupplies from the storekeeper. 1093. Do you not think that if there was a sufficient security for the money advanced (whether or no the sum advanced was in the shape of implements to the amount of 20/. or actually 20/. if there was such a security as Mr. Felton feels was sufficient) in the course of three or four years the amount would be repaid with interest ; and is there not capital enough in the colony to enable persons to make advances requisite for the purpose ?— Not in mone^. 1094. But in implements? — Tne merchants keep those implements which settlers require. 1095. What is the distinction between the advance of such implements as ate necessary for the cultivation of the farm and the provisions necessary for the sub- sistence of a family, and the advance of a sum requisite to produce them?— I am not sure that I understand that question. 1096. You say that there would be little difficulty in procuring an advance of implements and provisions, but great difficulty in procuring advaaces of money ; now is there any practical distinction between those advances? — ^There is a very great, local distinction ; the majority of the people there are farmers, nine-tenths of uiem ; a small proportion are dealers, they would not be called merchants here ; they are dealers in such articles as are saleable in the country ; it is these dealers who make the advances ; most of the farmers confine themselves entirely to their farms, and they have no money to advance ; if they have any money, they generally purchase land for their children, and expend it in that way. 1097. There is a difficulty in advancing money? — Yes. 1 098. Is there any practical difficulty in procuring upon credit, with a stipula- tion for repayment, such a quantity of provisions as would enable an honest settler to support his family at first, and such implements aa would enable him to practise hia occupations? — Certainly not. 1099. Are the Committee to ur.ierstand you to say, that if a thousand fiunilies were to land at Quebec in 18^0, there would be no difficulty in the individuals, whether dealers or mercbruits, immediately lending these persons such implements and advancing to their, such food as might be necessary to sustain them until ther were in a condition t') support themselves upon credit? — I made a distinctioQ with fegard to that : I nmceive that with emigrants coming out immediately without any capital, the merchants not knowinp^ them, and not being convinced/iD their pinds that they wouM turn out industrious, there would be difficulty ; l)ut there woold be no difficult}- in regard to a person who had remained long enough to show that he would be ugood settler. The merchants or traders must have a moral confidence in their own ninds that they would be repaid ; the difficulty arises fW>m the settlers not being knowu, and coming to a country exposed to labonr to which they had not been accustomed. Thesto two points require Ut be ^orally ascertained, before merchants will give them credit. 1 100. If the only objection is that they are not individually acquainted with the character of the settler, and have no guarantee that he is industrious and likely to produce a useful settler, and that if they did know it, there woqld be no objection to their advancing this food and these implements, do you not consider it a proof that if money were advanced from this country, Uttle or no risk would be run in receiving repayment upon the same principle as the local agent receives it from die individual aettler with whom he is acquainted ? — There is not any difiierence ; what I mean to say is, it would be a matter of prudence with the merchant ; he 237. N must Dr. Jok» StraekaK. 13 Murcb, 1817. !i Dr. John Strackaii. 13 Miirrh, 1837. •I I ! n 98 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SE'^ECT COMMITTEE must see the probability of being repaid, and that prudeace dictates he should know the person with whom he deals, and to whom he gives credit ; but if the advance is made to those pcisons who p;o upon their lands as to the two last emi- grations, there is not any body but what would credit them at once. 1101. Supposing p. party of emigrants landed in Canada, and that they had such a character for honesty and for ability in this countnr as that the government would be induced to make a free grant of land to them, do you not think it would be takten by the parties in the oolony, that they must be men who would maintain a good character in the country ? — The merchant would judge individually of each person for himself; it is impossible to give a general guarantee. 1 10a. Do you think it possible that any legal association might be formed ? — It would assist; but if the merchant were a prudent person, he wouM look at each individual himself. 1103. Do you think it possible that any Company could be formed in Canada, to supply these persons with implements and provisions upon a larger scale than could be done by individuals taking the land only as a security for repayment?— I ddubt that, from want of capital ; I do not think a Company could carry on the business so profitably as private individuals. 1104. Supposing an advance were made of provision and imolementa, for which a small amount of capital would be necessary, would not the dealer have this inducement first, a sale for his commodities by finding a purchaser of them, and next the land which would be a sufficient security for the repayment?— The land would be a sufficient security, but I am not prepared to say that a Company could easily be created in the Canadas ; it would be difficult to show the necessity of forming a Company to do what can be better done by individuals, and there would be still greater difficulty in showing that there would be any particular profit from it 1 1 05. Do you not think a person lending money in Canada on the spot, ad- vancing £. io in money, implements and provisions, would have a better chance of procunng repayment for his advance, than a person lending money in this country? — From his focid knowledge he would have a better chance. 1 106. Are you not of opinion that money is worth more than 61. per cent in Canada? — In truth it is, but we cannot get more, legally. 1107. Do you not think that if the laws respecting usury were altogether repealed, money would be anxiously taken at a much higher interest than 6 /. per cent ? — In many instances it would ; the wav in which faierchants deal gives them much more profit than the per-centage ; they would not lend money ; they get a profit upon the articles they sell to settlers, they get his produce at such a rate as enables them to get a profit from Montreal, when they send it to their own merchant ; therefore money is seldom lent in that country. tio8. Are you not therefore of opinion that if there were no laws at all u|:?:~. the subject of usury, that money would in fact be worth more, and that more tnao 6 /. per cent would generally be given for it?~More would be frequently g^iven. 1109. You have stated, that to a person of good credit and respectability, a merchant would have no objection to advance food and implements to the amount of 20/.?— Yes. 1110. But fretn vrant of capital in Canada, is it probable that if a great influx of emigrants were to go out to that country, thatany merchants there could advance tiiese persons food and implements to any considerable extent on credit? — I think they would if they had the guarantee I mention, or if they were morally convinced that the persons were worthy of credit. 1 tit. Do you think the merchants generally have capital enough to allow of such long credit as would be necessary in their general transactions for these advances ? — The settlers would soon be able to make some re-payments to the merchant, for h* would be on the spot to receive any produce the setders had to spare, and they would soon srare a little. 111a. Do tiiev not find difficulty in collecting the debts they create ?■— Some- times, as they depend upon the produce of the Jands ; but a great number of merchants have made considerable fortunes there. 1113. Are the merchants generally punctual in their payments, or the reverse ? ' — r-I am not prepared to give an exact answer to that question, I do not think they are more backward in paying their debts than people generally are ; some pay by instalments, some pay punctual, and some not so punctual. 1114. A gentleman, Mr. Felton, has stated, "I am so convinced of the great ''*••■ facility ON EMIORATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa?. 99 facility which aettlelfe, enjoying th« advtntage proposed 'to be afforded to them, Eossess to make thkir paymenta in the terms prescribed, that I should have no esitation whatever in binding mvself to the extent of 10,000/. to make up ony deficiency in the payment of the first year's interest in either of the two provinces, provided that a proper deforce of judgment be exhibited in the location of the settlers on the land ; " are there many Mr. Feltons in the Canadas ?— Very few are able to risk so much, but almost every gentleman in the provinces vrov^d risk something; I would risk 1,000/. upon the same ground, but I could not risk so much as 10,000/. 1115. But are thero maiw individuals of property who would guarantee the repayment, in various sums from 500/. to 10,000/.? — I think there are many. 1116. Supposing individuals in'this country were to lend money upon the se- curity of this land, do you not imagine, without difficulty, some machinery might be devised in the provinces, to enforce payment as well as If the parties lending it were there themselves ? — Yes, I think so. 1117. Do you not believe the local legislature would give every facility to the enforcement oi the parent, under such circumstances? — With the greatest pleasure. 1118. You have no doubt that the Kirg's government would give every possible assistance?— Certainly not 1 1 19. Do you think, with the united assistance of the King's government and the local legislature, there would be any danger accrue to the parties in this country who lent their money ? — No ; and I was thinking of proposing a scheme in this country to facilitate settlers, and lend them money, depending on repay- ment at the end of oeven years. 1 1 20. Are the Committee to understand, that it is the general want of capital in the country, where there is a small population and S' great quantibr of fertile land, which is toe reason why money cannot be immediately advanced in the colony on this security f — Unquestionably ; want of capital entirely. 1121. Is there a Considerable portion of the clergy reserves at present under lease ? — Yes. 1193. Are the rents paid for these lands, or are they let at a nominal ren^ which is received t — There wao no means of getting these rents, until a few yean ago. 1 123. What were the difficulties in getting these rents, which would not stand in the way of getting rents from other lands ? — There was no person, till lately, who had any interest in enforcing their collection; and there was a difference of opinion among the crown officers, whether it should be by common process or by extent, as belonging to the crown ; a considerable sum has however been collected, and there will be little difficulty hereafter in making the payments regular, if proper care is taken. 1 1 24. Are the payments now made or not, in fact? — The pajrments are getting more and more regular every year. 1 1 25. Do you consider there is any difference in principle between the rent of the clergy reserves and the rent of any other lands whatever, or that the security is better in one case than in the other ?<— The people think that rent paid from the derinr reserves is an easy sort of rent ; they conceive that other persons would be mucn more severe, and demand a higher rent. iia6. Would the inference you draw from that be, that you would be more likely to receive rent firom the clergy reserves than firom other lands ? — Not more likely. 1197. What is the reason you have to expect they will be paid from other lands when the rents are heavier? — I said I did not apprehend thiere would be any great difficulty whenever proper machinery waa adopted, which is not the case at this moment There has been a delicacy ; the reason of waiting for the decision of the Crown officers was this, that in one process it was expensive, and would eat up the rent for five or six years, it is so small, and it is n matter of con- sequence to ascertain that point first ; but I apprehend there will be no difficulty in future. 1128. Are the Committee to understand, without recourse to some process of law, those rents would not be properly paid ?— That would not be often the case if they were exacted regularly. 1 1 29. Has it been the case yet ?-r-It has, with regard to the clergy reserves. 1 130. Do you not think that the &ct of an emigrant gaining a fee-simple in his .237. N 2 property Dr. Jol^H Slraekan. 13 Mtrcli, 1817. H 1 Dr. Jnln Siratltait, ' .' 13 Mtrcb, 1817. Capt. mmam Slarthl. I 13 Mktch, 1897. 100 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, HEl'ORE SELECT COMMITTEE property would be an additional reavoii for HIk pnyini; the r^t fur that, than for the clerity reserves ? — I rocntionrd in my evidence lait year, that there was an objection against rent in that country ; they like the fee-simpic, and dislike any ' thing in the shape of rant. 1131. Is not rent redeemable the mmc us fee-siinple ?— Yes, if it is considered as interest, or a sum that may be bought up. ^ Captain William Marshal, called in ; and Examined. 1133. HAVE you had an opportunity of hearing the evidence of Doctor Strachan ? — Yes. 1 133. Have you been in charge of the Lannrk seltlengent? — Yes. 1134. Are vou intimately acquainted with thq hubits, and circumstaaccs, and customs of settlers ?— Perfectly so. 1 135. Do you concur with Dr. Strachan io the opinion, that under proper regu- lation, there is no real chance of this repayment not neinff effectual ? — I do concur -entirely with him. 1136. You would not hesitate to give your own individual opinion to any persons inquiring if they should lend their money on such security, advising them to lend it ? — Certainly not, I should recommend it as a safe security in the long run. 1 1 37. Taking it upon an average, you would recommend it ?— Yes. 1138. Do you consider, in cases where death or accident might remove the party, the land in itself would not be a sufficient security? — It would; as the country became settled, it would become more valuable, and thereby become a good security. 1 1 39. How soon do yo suppose that a settler of ordinarv industry, located on his 100 acres, can begin to make any capital at all? — The general opinion is, and I am of that opinion also, that at the end of seven years he would be very able to pay the interest of the money he may receive. 1 140. How much money, or money's worth, at the end of seven years, will it be in the power of that settler to pay annually ? — It depends on many circumstances. 1 141. If a settler had 100 A lent him, within what period of time would he be able to pay 5/. per cent interest upon that sum, and in what period of time would he be able to pay back the principal ? — At the end of seven years he certainly would be able to pay interest, and that would always urge him to pay the prin- cipal as early as possible. If the interest is rigidly exacted, no doubt he would find it his interest to pay the principal in the course of time. It would depend upon what his family consisted of, whether they could render him any service or not. 1 143. Would he not be able to pay more than five pounds worth of produce at the end of seven years ? — Most undoubtedly he would. 1143. Could he pay more ?— Yes. 1 144. Du you suppose that at the end of seven years he would be able to spare 10/. worth of produce annually? — I think he would. a^aUer Bumll, Esq. 15 Msrrb, 1837. JtWM, 15* die Martii, 1827. Walter Burrett, Esq. a Member of the Committee, made the following Statement : - 1 WILL shortly give a history of the parish of West Orinstead. The last census taken, was 1,339 People: — married men, residing in the parish, 116; married women, 113; children, 398 ; labourers, 63, constantly employed ; casually employed, 53; lost time of the 53 people, divided into months, 333,- at 8«. per week, the average expense amounts to 357/- that is lost upon the 333 months. Parishioners residing out of the parish, but receiving occasional relief, 64 men, 64 women, 1 87 children ; of these, constantly employed, 39, casually employed, 37; time lost, divided into months, 93— thati multiplied by 8«^ro- duces 148/. per annum; this will amount to 505/. loss upon the labour. Cfom- puted age of the married mde labourers belonging to the parish : from 30 to 30 years of age, sn in the parish, and out of it, 13 ; from 30 to 40 yeiars of age, in the parish, 39, out of it, 35, which amounts to 64; from 40 to 50 years of age, 36 in the parish, and 30 out of the parish, amounting to 46 ; from 50 to 60 years of age, 23; ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 18U7. 101 Doctor *gt, 91 in the pariil, and 5 out of tht parish ; above that age, 10 in tiie pariMbi |Uid 4 out of the parish, amounting to 14. Ttiere nrc i8^2 married men employed in the pariih, and 51 farmers ; rental of land, 2,849/. '*' tradesmen, 32 ; trade and cottagers amount to 166/. rental ; making u total of 3,(^15/. For the lant four yean, there have been three assatsmcnta of 4.V. in the pound; tb number of acres in th« parish, 5,9,5 1 . And there is rather a curious circumstance as to the births, marriages, and baptisms ; the Committee will find that in the last ten years there ■ have been io6 buriaU, and the baptisms have amounted to 413. 1 14,5. Are there any dissenters in the parisli/ — A few, but not to make it of any consequence. The marriages in the hist ten years were 83. I mT). Has the number of marriages diminished? — Yes : the m^irriages in 1817 were seven ; 1818, eleveh ; 1 8 1 9, fiv^; 1 820, seven ; 1821, four ; 1 832, eleven ; 1823, eleven; 1824, eleven; >'82.'), ten; 1836, five. The allowances in the parish are, for a man and his wife, with three children under thirteen, 30.*. for the rent of a cottage; a man and his wife with four (Children, receives 3/. for rent, and is. per week for every chiM above three and under thirteen years old , to these, me- dicine is also given. Persons out of the poor-house, who are occasionally employed, receive i.t. 6^. to 2«. per head per weelc from the parish'; widows, with a family of small children, receive \s. 6d. per head ])er week ; old wido>vs, js. per week. It has been the custom of the parisn of West (irinKtead and the adjoining parishes, for many years, to let the boys and girls, from the age of 12 years to to and 17, from Lady-day to Lady-day, by giving their employers from 3^/. to 9//. per week, and 4o«. a year for clothes for each, which amounts yearly to from 150/. to 180/. It is supposed there are from 30 to ,50 men out of employment, from four to five months in the year ; and for three months, from 70 to 75 who are entirely dependent upon the parish for support The number of men, women and children in the poor-house, is 40 ; but in the winter months it averages between 40 and 50, having at that time single young men in the house who cannot find any kind of ^pby- ment. The parish pays 34. a head for all in the poor-house, whether old or young. The amount of the poor rate in 1834, was 1,79b/. 144. ; in 1825, 1,804/. is.; in i8a6, 1,924/. 141. The real fact of the case is, that several gentlemen, who have property in the neighbourhood, have been expending very large sums of money . in making roads and forming canals, in order to keep them employed. Next winter this canal will be completed, we shall have expended 10,000/. upon it ; and if it is so severe a winter this year as it was last, we shall expect to have from 70 to 80 people in the poor-liouse. I beg to deliver in a letter, detailing the expenses of the parish of Pulborough. " Sir, \Tke foUvming Letter was delivered in.] I am, Sir, with great respect, " Your obedient humble Servant, fKuMrr flarr*//, V . ' IS Itt^rrb, 1I47. " 1 send you the Expenses of the parish of Pulborough in the county of Sussex, for one year. You will see that £.3ii of the poor, rates are thrown away in idle men on the roads ; and that in five years, including the highway rates, £. 3,5,52 have been expended on the roads, of which £. 1,932 have been taken from the poor rates. In the years ending April 1824 and 1825, the occupiers of land em- ployed one man on their farms for every £. 25 a year rating in the poor book, which continued partly through the year 183G, except by one person occupying 400 acres, who will not take his proportion, which has induced the other occupiers of land to discontinue their proportion, and we have now 95 men on the roads, many of them without tools. Is it not worth considering, whether the determination of a large majority of a parish to employ the agricultural labourers in any way which shall not favour one more than another, with the approbation of the magistrates in petty or quarter sessions, might not be made legally binding on the minority ? I am aware that much c^re must be taken to prevent an unequal pressure, especially on small parishes. '■{ il Pulborough; December 14^1836." John Austin, Rector." 237- N3 I02 MINITTES OF EVIDKNCE REFORE SELECT COMMITTEE U iillff ButrfU, *_.— — , 1 «5 MiWfh, I Si?. ,1 ■ PULUUROUOH, SUMKX. ' Acrci, 6,000; popuUtion, a.ooo ; |uH>r rates, C-^f^^9 c 33'- ■> bead; Wagon, lo«. * v'cck i wiveat ({rown, 700 luatU ; pour tax, 66#. on each load. Expenditure from April iHa5 to April 1896: Extra work on tlio Roads (not required) to employ Labourers in want of work - - - - 318 - Constables, principally on account of Va|;ranU • 23 a Beadle, to drive away the vagrants • a6 > Actine Overseer, salary - • • - ' •• a6 - Attending Bench and Justice, and feet and other journies and expenses ' 50 M Horses and Carta to Pctworth, &c. • - • 93 Expense of two Appeals, both gained - ■ 44 7 County Rate ' • 54 7 Medical attendance • 7a I a ChurchwardeDH, instead of a rate • , - - - 134 Relief 1,683 » 7 3i a 8 C 3 91 iC 2,319 8 3t Expended on the Roads, includtngi highway rate, in 5 years [Highway Rate, (,- 334] ] iSaa 1 833 1824 i8j<-, i8a6 838 881 605 584 643 13 91 13 10 15 6* 4 10 L 3.553 7 - of which /£. 3,5.')3. 7«. the sum q{ £. 1,933. 7<. has been taken from the poor rates. 1 147. Are you of opinion that the distress arising from over population, the details of which you have now given to the Committee, as to certain parishes, is generally extensive through the weald of Sussex ? — Yes, certainly, except in a very few small parishes. 1148. Supposing that the redundant labourers in the paryh to which you belong, were willing to avail themselves of emigration to any of the possessioM of tiie Crown, are you of opinion that there would be a unanimous desire on the part of the rate payers to contribute to that object ? — I have not the slightest doubt about it. 1 149. For example, could you inform the C/ommittee what expense vou consider to be incurred by the parish, in a family consisting of a man, his wiie and three children, who may be considered as entirely depcudcnt on the parish for support throughout the year, with the exception perhaps of the weeks of harvest ? — I should say throughout the year without employment, £,. 35. %t. it would cost the pariah for a man and his wife and three children. 1 150. Does that include the rent?-~Yea, it includes the rent. 1151. That is the whole expense of the parish ? — Yes, and without any children it would cost i,. 18. \os. ; with one child, C'^\. ; wit*^ two children, iC*33. \ot. ; with three children, ^. 35. 84. ; with four children, (,. 39. \o». ; with five children, ^.33. 3«. ; with six children, ^. 34. 141. 1 1 5a. Are you of opinion that the rate payers would consent to charge the rates of the parish with an annuity for 10 years o( (,. 7., upon which the sum oi £,. ^0. might be borrowed, to furnish the means of promoting the emigration of any pvtiM wining to emigrate ? — I should say, wiUiout any doubt, tiiey would be very glad to do so. 1153. You are of opinion, then, that the rate payers do not look to the occurrence of any circumstances that may have the effect of preventing those parties continuing chargeable to the parish I — They look unwillingly to the future ; I do not see how it is possible to go on. 1 154. You have stated to the Committee, that that artificial employment which has been put into action, must come to an end at no distant period, after which the rates would be more saverely charged ? — My own opinion is, supposing we have such a winter as the la^t, that the rates will be very materially increased ; alamfngly a sum. ON KMWRATtON PROM THE UNITKl) KlNGlH)M : 1827. 103 ftlarmingly lo next jwar, for I cnn itatc that in tliia diRtrict we htTe expended between £. i.5iOOO nnd ^. ju.ouo in tliu lust few yeari, in th«< empluymrnt of the peqple ; we have cut down every hill in the country and niadv new roadi ; wa Mve made iG milei of new turnpike road ri^ht through the country. li.Vi- I" your opinion, would the rntp payem prefer raining; 50/. in two yean, by initalnicnts of -Jj/. each year, to HprcudiiiK it over a period of 10 yearn at 7/. a year, thereby effecting an immediate sensible reduction in the poor rate*? — No, bt'cauM they are all tenants at will, and they would not like to pay down ao large a sum. M.^6. You think there would be a feeling that the best mode would be to spread it over a space of 1 o years ? — Yes. 1 1, '(7. Would there be uny objection to io years?— None. 1 1 38. You are aware that it would be the intention of this Committee not to recommend any class of emigrants to receive assistance, who were not able-bodied and competent to work, and within certain ages; do you consider that that restriction would make the rntc payers less desirous of availing themselves of thii system of emigration? — No, because we cannot employ the people, as it is ; we should be very glad to tend out able-bodied young men of decent families. 1159. Supposing you had no altcrnutive but to pay 8/. instead of 7/. which would cover (iu/., would any objection exist in the rate payers to incur such • charge ? — I think not. 1160. Do you think that the rate payers would he more disposed to pay an annuity of 7/. or 8/. for the space of 10 years, for the purpose of raising money for this object, or that they would be disposed to pay down the whole sum at once, or in two or three years ? — I am latisfied they would prefer the extended period, because there is not a man in our country who will take u lease. 1 161. Do you imagine, from your knowledge of the management of the parish, there would be any practical difficulty in receiving from parishes any charge upon their rates for that purpose? — I can see none at ail ; I would take upon myself to remit tlie money from t is parish, to any person appointed to receive it. II 6a. Do yon ihink, as a general rule, there would be the slightest difficulty in arranging with the magistrates or the gentlemen in the neighbourhood, to remit to the county treasurer that sum which by the terms of the arrangement was to proceed from the parish ? — I should conceive none at all, any more than in collect' log the county rates. 1 163. Do you ilbt think that every thing connected with the levying and paying this money into the hands of the county treasurer might be earned on by local arrangements in the county, without mixing it up with the government, or a board of emigration, if any such were established? — Certainly. 1 1 64. If the plan of charging the rates with annuities for 1 o or 1 3 years should be acted upon to a considerable extent, would not any in-coming tenant two or three years hence find the rates very considerably reduced? — I should say decidedly so, there is no doubt about it ; and with respect to people coming in, we know now how to manage those things ; the only people coming in would h% those belonging to the parish who resided out of it. 1 165. The auestion applied to farmers entering into farms?— I have answered that question already. 11 66. Are you of opinion that efficient local measures would be taken by the rate payers in this pariah m far as legislation allowed thsm, to prevent the recur- rence of a settlement that might lead to a similar redundancy of population, and similar inconvenience! — I am satisfied it is so much for their convenience and benefit, they would look very closely to it. 1 167. Have you ever turned your attention to any measure of legislation which it would be desirable to pass, to give power to the rate payers to prevent such recurrence? — I know of no way except by pulling down the cottages; I am the holder oi a great many cottages, and my only reason for keeping them up is, that the poor people would have no place to put their heads in if they were pulled down. 1168. Are the Committee to understand that the greater part of this parish is your own property? — No, about 1,700 acres; a great deal is my brother'! property. 1 169. The class of people to whom the cottages belong, are landed proprietors? — Yes, gentlemen residing M a distance ; some of them belong to the farmers ; 337. . N4 tfiere Kiq. IS March, i«i7. ,1 n'alttr BurrtU, Esq. 15 March, lbs?' 104 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTER there are no gentlemen in the parish besides the clergyman, the Rev. William Woodwaid, and myself. 1 1 70. How many cottages arc paid rent for, that do not belong to gentlemen of property in the parish ? — 1171. You have said, that a man, woman, and three children cost the parish 2,5/. 8.?.; if there wii* a j)roposal to remove them, what would the parish be prepared to pay down? — I should say they would be villing to pay 6/. 10*. a year. 1 1 72. It costs now 25 /. a year to support these people ; would there be any doubt the parish would be prepared to pay down 2.5/.? — I should say, as a pro- prietor, certainly ; but as a yearly tenant of land, having no lease, I should decline to do so. 1 1 73. Do you not consider it very unfair that the present temporary occupier should be able to charge his successor with a fixed annuity that should fall upon him alone? — It would be so beneficial to his successor, that he could not object to it ; I have not the slightest doubt about its succeeding. 1 1 74 To what cause do you attribute the presence of this extra population in this parish ? — I should say first, that Sussex is infinitely the roost healthy county in. England, according to its population returns ; in the next place, the farmers have acted upon a very absurd and stupid plan, they will not employ single men, the consequence is,, that a man immediately marries; and they likewise giT^e a pre- mium upon population, for they give to a man with four children 1 $. a week for that fourth child, and so on for every other beyond that 1 1 75. Are not the wages of a single man reduced to the smallest possible sum on which a single man can live ? — No, I should say not ; I employ a great many of them, and I pay them lOf. a week in the winter. 1 1 76. You say there would be a difficulty in coming forward with an immediate sum from a temporary occupant ; do you think an^ arrangement could be made between the immediate occupiers and the owners ot the land, that could facilitate the raisin parish. 1 1 86. Could those means be adopted in parishes where the property was not confined to a few individuals of large landed estates? — 1 think so, in the weald of Sussex. • 1187. Do you think there would not be more difficulty in preventing the re- opulation of the parish where the land was divided among small proprietors ? — "he tenantry have suffered so severely in consequence of this influx of people, that they would take measures to prevent it. 1 188. Do you think that the prospect of diminished poor rates would counter- balance in the mind of the small proprietor the loss of the rent of the cottages ? — I do. 1189. Supposing a small proprietor has three or four cottages, for which he receives rent, will ne consider himself repaid for pulling down those cottages by the diminution of the poor rates from the absence of tenants ? — I answer to that, that the poor rate is so nigh upon the cottages, that he receives no rent at all. 11 go. You have stated, that in many cases the rent was paid by the parish; allowing the rent to be paid by the parish, will not the pulling down of those cottages be clearly a real loss to the proprietor? — Yes, a loss to the amount of rent of 30 *. 1191. Will that loss be made up to him by his proportion of the diminution of the poor rates ? — Not if it was a mere cottage. 1 19a. Do the poor rates and the cottage repairs amount pretty nearly to the rent? — I should say to the full amount of the rent 1 193. Does the parish pay rent for any cottage the inhabitant of which is not a parishioner ? — No. 1 194. Is not the law of settlement so well understood now, generally, that it is extremely difficult for a poor man to obtain a new settlement ? — I do not see I10W it is possible. 1 195. Therefore any new comer into the parish, to become an inhabitant of one of the cottages vacated by one who has emigrated, could not obtain a setUemient in the parish? — No, the parish would refuse to pay his rent, which would be 10/. a year to make a settlement 1 1 96. W ould not the consequence be, that the general rental of cottages through- out the parish would fall? — If the parishes agreed, as I think they ought, not to pay rent for any body, most of them would fall down. 1 197. Is it not contrary to the poor laws, for the parish to pay rent? — All I know is, that if they do not pay rent, a great number of poor would sleep under the 1198. In your parish, where rent is paid for cottages, is it entered as rent? — Yes, as rent paid. 1199. Not as relief? — No. 1200. Does any power exist at present of borrowing money upon the rates? — I know of none. 1301. Do you think there would be any objection to obtaining parliamentary sanction for pledging the rates of the parish for a certain number of years, pro- vided the rate did not exceed it* present amount? — I think it must be done by Act of Parliament. 1203. Vou think it would be desirable? — Yes, certainly. 1303. If the tenantry at present feel the weight of a redundant population, how U it that they may still refuse to employ any but married men? — Suppose a man is married, with a family, they must keep him with his family ; whereas they have only to keep the single man, without any family. 1 304. Have you any poor-house in the parisn ? — Yes, it holds from forty to fifty people. 1205. Are you not aware that in Mr. Sturges Bourne's Act there is a power to borrow money to enlarge or build a poor-house ?— Yes. I2u6. Then, in point of fact, the charging the parish rates with an annuity for ten years, for the purpose of emigration, would only be an extension of the prin- ciple of Mr. Sturges Bourne's Act, to allow money to be borrowed upon the rates to build poor-houses? — Certainly. 1 307. Do you not consider that, both in the payment of wa^es of labour in aid of the fanning labourer, and in the payment of rent of cottages out of the poor rate, -'J7. the tytdttr BnrrtU, Esq. 15 Miircb, 1827. '•^1/' loG MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMHTEE lyulter BurrtU, Etq. 15 March, 1827. Mr. Thomat Btadbury. i H the country is submitting to illegal expenses, on account of the extreme distress of the population? — 1 do not know how to answer that, as to cottages, but I should say yes, if the parish paid for the labour of a person upon a farm ; suppose I hired a labourer, and gave him only six shillings, and the parish made it up ten shillings, I should say that this would be wholly illegal. laoS. And that is ( Yes, they have. 1 237. Do you see any chance of the poor rates dimbishing considerably in your part of -(he country, unless a great portion of the poor are removed ? — No, -,tbere is no chanoe whatever,; ibey are more lilbely to increaie. 237. ' , O 3 I2j8. Do i 1' '% 11 -^r^wt ^wr- ■Je»^waw Mr. Tkomai BrMurg. ij Mari^h, 1897. Iffi m D. P. Fmneit, 17 March, 1837. 108 MINUTES pF EVIDENCE BEFORE; SELECT COMMITTEE 1238. Do not the poor live verv bard ? — Yea. 1330. What is the common diet upon which & labourer and his family are living f-— Chiefly bread, very little else ; only a bit of meat on Sunday. 1 340. What sort of bread ? — They have it at the bakers chiefly, it is a secondary sort. i34iYAndtea? — Yes. , 134s. Without suear? — Y"- 1343. Or milk! — Yes, tea three or four times a day, if they are, women. 1244. They get no milk? — ^There is very little milk to be had, or sugar; if you consider the allowance of six or seven shillings a week for a man and his family, there is not much sugar to be had. 1 345. What are the rates you give to persons in your parish ? — There is an allowance for children. 1346. What is the principle upon which you give that allowance to. persons having families in your parish?— They give after the rate of one shilling each child more than two, when under ten years of age. 1347. When they are under two, you give nothing? — No, only the weekly al- lowance, and that would be about seven killings a week. 1 348. Then a man with three or four children is better off than a man not having two children t — Yes, he is. 1 349. Therefore the effect of the rates is to tempt those poor people to have nu- merous families? — Yes, it is so; but absolutely in the time of war the poor live better, because they had a loaf each child ; if a child was bom, the man went directly and absolutely demanded his loaf, and he had a loaf a week, which amounted to half a crown a week, when the child lived upon its mother, for two years. 1250. What do the men get at road work in your parish? — They are put on the road, when there is no other employment for them; they are paid according to their familier,, a single man has 3s. per week, a man able to earn 8«. or iojt. ; then there are some at 4«. and some 5 s. and different wages ; the reason for single men having such small wages is, because they are apt to stop at home instead of going to service, it is to drive them to service; they almost starve them to service. 1351. Those single men that are on the road, or in the gravel pit, paid by the Sarish 33. a week, do they do much work? — No, very little, they go away for tree or four hours ; I have watched them a little time back. There is a road being made near where I live ; I have found them three hours gone to dinner, and two hours to breakfast. 1 352. Are they not in the habit of getting married, in order to get the allowance ? — ^Yes ; when they cannot live any longer as single men, they marry, and go to the overseer for employment and a house. 1 353. They get married in the morning, and then go to the overseer for a house? — Yes. Sabbati, 17* die Martii, 1827. David Pollof Francis, Esq. called in; and Examined. 1254. HOW long is it since you left the Cape? — Rather more than two years. 1 255. Were you there at the time when Mr. Ingram's emigration arrived there? — Yes. 1 256. Are you able to inform the Committee as to the condition of the parties now within the colony ? — I presume they are generally doing very well ; but there have been great obstacles to their doing well, in consequence of the immense debt they have to pay to Mr. Ingram. 1257. Are you aware of the extent of that debt per head? — It was 300 rix dollars for each male adult. 1258. What will that be in sterling? — At the time Mr. Ingram arrived there, it would be 30/. according to the then rate of exchange. 1 259. What do you imagine would be the expense of each of these emigrants, for their passage? — I think about 15/. 1 260. Were they attended with their wives and children ? — Generally. 1361. In estimating the expense at 15/. per head, do you mean generally for . men, ON EMIGRATION FROM. THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. >09 men, women and children? — I think probably it might be done for less, taking a family. * 1 3(2. Will you haVe the goodness to inform the Committee what you estimate to be the expense of the passage, and suppoH during it, for a man, woman and three children ? — I made a few notes for my own iut'ormation, if 1 may be allowed to look at,them. [7%e Witness referred to some private memoranda,] I think, about 43/. taking a man, his wife and three children, that would be about 9/. a head. 1 263. Have ypu ever turned your attention to any simple principle of repay- ment which might be adopted with respect to a labourer going out to the colony of the Cape of Good Hope, where the demand for labour is sucn as to procure him adequate remuneration for his services ? — Yes, I have turned my attention to that subject, and I think that it might be done, if not to the Aill extent, at least to a great part of it ; but I apprehend there must be a totally new rate of wages previously established in the colony, for, under present circumstances, neither the price that is paid for a labourer can answer the purpose of the employer, nor is it at all necessary as regards the price for the necesiaries of life, it is so much in excess. 1 264. Did vou examine the statement made last year before this Committee by Mr. Carlisle, as to the rate of wages at the Cape of Good Hope ? — Yes. 1265. Do you consider that to be correct? — I apprehend Mr. Carlisle cannot mean it as general or permanent wages, but only wages paid under peculiar cir- cumstances. 1 366. Will you state in what respect you differ from Mr. Carlisle, and what you consider to be the general rate of wages for a labouser at the Cape ?— Where I differ is in this, that tho rate of wages that has been stated by Mr. Carlisle is paid by persons beinc obliged to employ labour at that price from necessity, not rrom any view of profit arising from that labour. 1367. What do you consider to be the average rate of wages of an able-bodied agricultural labourer at the Cape ? — It is so indefinite, I can hardly state a rate of wrages ; labour has been so scarce, that it has been employed occasionally only. Where, for instance, the employer wanted any particular piece of work done, which in fact was necessary even for his own suMistence and that of his family, he would then be obliged to employ labour at any rate for a short period ; but it could never be supposed for a moment that it would answer by way of profit ; no produce which could be raised from auch labour would be at all equal to the expense of 4s. per day, as stated in Mr. Carlisle's evidence of last year. 1 268. If the produce is not equal to the expense of labour, how do you account for the produce being raised and paid for at that rate? — I think it u not, cer- tainly not in the new settlement. 1 369. Will you distinguish the different produces of different parts of the Cape of Grood Hope, and mention the circumstances of labour which belong to each of them ? — ^The old colonists, in the Cape district for instance, and those nearest the great mariiet, can afford to pay more for labour than they can in the new settle- ment The old colonists generally employ slave labour, or Hottentots, or any that they can get ; but I am quite of opinion the old colonists would never think of employing labour at that rate 4s. per day. 1 370. You have stated, that it is difiicult to mention an average rate of wages, as the labourers are not uniformly employed ; but at the same time can you inform the Committee what, in your opinion, may be considered as an average rate under these ciatunstances? — i consider that anentire new rate of wages must be esta- blished; I should say the rate of wages that is stated to be paid in the colony, 4^. per pay, a person working two or three days in the week at most, would be suincient to maintain him, and that might be considered the present average rate of wages. 1271. What can a labourmg; man, by his labour through the year, taking upon an average employment and no emplojrment, put in his pocket 1 — ^The rate of wages of Mr. Ingram's settlers was about as. $d. per day. 1373. Were Mr. Ingram's settlers bound by indenture ? — Generally, I believe they were. 1273. Then what is the rate which a person bound by, nothing at all might dis- pose of his labour for a year? — I think he would not get above that, 3«. 3<^ a day, if he was constantly employed. 1374. But that 3«. 3 saries of life? — Certainly I think he woald, in the interior. 1276. For 1 «. 3m this country to the colony. 1284. Do yoo mean the 3/. a year should be out of that shilling a day ? — Yes. 1 285. Do you mean on this statement, that the persons in the colony who are now labourers, should continue to receive wages fluctuating towards 29. yi. while these new settlers should receive wages at the rate of is. gd. ? — I think they would gradually lower to that rate, and by so doing they would in some measura supersede slave labour ; because I am of opinion they would still get below that, if there were an adequate supply yearly. 1286. Are you of opinion, in case of settlers being sent out bound for the term of five years in the manner proposed, that when that period was over they would find opportunities of settling themselves as colonists, rather than continue to work ibr others as labourers?— No doubt they would. 1287. Then yob are of opinioathat that result would naturally lead to a per- petual demand for labourers at the Cape, to be supplied annually according to tnrcumstances? — ^Yes, biit gradually. 1288. You have no doubt, therefore, that in the course of the present year, if €00 or 700 labourers were sent out, consenting to enter, upon their arrival in the colony, into indentures to this effect, there would be no practical difficulty in absorbing all of them under individual masters? — I think there would not. 1289. What is the cost of daily slave labour? — The slave labourer, wlio is employed as a labourer generally, receives about 20 rix dollars per month ; that in English would be 30 «. 1290. When you say that, do you mean before the change in die value of rtx dollars at *iie Cape, or the present value ?— Before the change took place ; but I apprehend E jneces- invari- I chosen in your ir, 80 as colony, would at ixpenses mid take ndent of nination, de under might go snse that bsistence : mean if • istence, if a general calculate make bis 3/. a year ort of the liink tliey instead of might be is separate afely; but at nrst, is day, and iquidating ; a day ? — who are I 8 29. 3e measure ow that, if nr the term hey would le to work i to a per- cording to snt year, if rival in the ifficulty in ot. rer, wlio is onth; that alue of rrx place; but apprehend ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. in I apprehend that they make nO'diatinotion between the rix dollars now and the rix dollars then. 1991. Has not a great change taken place in the value of rix dollars at the Caps, by the King's proclamation ? — Certainly, between this country and the Cape, but not in the interior of the colony itself. 129a. By the law existing at the Cape, is a fresh supply of slaves legal? — Certainly not . 1 293. The number cannot be increased ?— No. ' 1294. And it has not bectn? — No. 1295. Has it not been, to a certain extent, through the medium of African apprentices T — ^There have been some driven in by the native tribes into thf colony. 1 296. Can the labour of free negroes be obtained at much less than the cost of 2«. 3d. per day, which is now Uie average cost of colonial labour? — Slave iabouf coats about 30*. per month, and their subsistence. 1297. Are you t proprietor in the Cape? — I went out as a settler in 1 820. 1 298. Are you stul a proprietor ?— Yes. i3Qp. Are Europeans as capable of field labour there as the Hottentots ? — I saw no difficulty in their working there at any time, unless upon vei^ particular hot days. 1300. Have you endeavoured to procure persons upon indenture, to go to your •¥rn property in the Cape, to work as labourers? — No, I have not. 1301. Why have you not done so? — Because I apprehended some measure night take place for facilitating the supply of labour to that colony. 1 302. Bat if no such measure were to take place, would it not be for your interest to make your own bargain, and to carry out persons there ? — It would be rather difficult to do that as an individual ; when the servants arrive there they would be so dissatisfied with the rate of wages which I could give in addition to the expense of their transport, that I should not be able to keep uem without great difficulty. 1303. But adverting to the distressed state of the population of this country at present, do you think a man who is half starving here, would be dissatisfied with the rate of wages he found there ? — Certainly not. 1304. Are there not many other proprietors in the Cape similarly situated as you are, who might be disposed to enter into similar contracts as you say would be advantageous to yourself? — I think there are. 1305. And why are they restrained from entering into these contracts?— Because they would not do it as an individual measure; they think it highly expedient it should be done as a general and public measure. 1306. Is that for the purpose of reducing the rate of wages lower than it would otherwise naturally be? — It is certainly with that view. 1307. That is your object, is it? — Yes, because there is no produce which could be raised at the present price of labour, which would at all answer the purpose of any individual taking out labourers, to pay the present rate of wages. 1308: Arie the Committee to take your opinion as exprersed here, as yours alone, or are you deputed by any body of persons to express their joint opinion 7 —I give my own opinion entirely. 1309. Have you had any communication with the Cape, since you left it two years ago ? — Yes. 1310. Has it been constant ? — No, occasionally. 1311. Do you think that you are well acquainted with the state of facts with regard to labour at the Cape, at this moment ? — Yes. 1312. Suppose, in pursuance of your scheme, a certain number of emigrant labourers were sent out and indented to particular masters, would those masters take upon themselves the enforcing of the indentures, and bind themselves to repay the money advanced by government, by instalments ? — I should apprehend they would, for this reason ; it would make very little difference, in point of fact none, whether it is paid by the master to govermaent immediately, or whether it is paid to the servant, and the government looks to the servant 1313. In whose hands would you leave the power of enforcing the indentures?— In the district authorities. 1314. Supposing the servant was discontented with his wages, and was to leave his master, or in case of the death of the pafty, what security would government have for the repayment of the money advanced? — In case of the (kath of the party, I apprehend the debt must die with him ; but the better way would be, for 237. O 4 a counterpart X>. P. fVMCM, Esq. >. — ' — I 17 Mwcb, 1B97. , ft D. F. FriMcii, \> 17 Marth, 1H7. 113 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE a counterpart of the indentures to remain in the office of the district, and If the master and the servant disam-ec, the indenture should still follow the servant, so that whoever Mnployed him during the five years, or any portion of it, the condi- tion should still be fulfilled by the person who actually employed him. 1315. Do you think there would be a possibility of carrying that idea into exe- cution ; or might not the servant very easily find masters who would engage him without inquiring into any previous circumstances? — It is very probable that ser- vants could find masters, but they would not be so certain ofconstant employ- ment 1316. Are you prepared to state yourself, supposing your calculation of the expense to be correct, you would engage to pay to the government 3 /. a year for an indenture of each man for five years, you taking upon your own hands the risk of losing the servant when you arrived at the Cape ? — I give this opinion as my own, not as the opinion of the settlers ; generally m the new settlement, they have rated the wages at 12 A a year. I apprehend that the power of the local authorities is quite sufficient to restrain a man in the district where he is employed, because, generally speaking, that man would not be employed out of the district, without inquiring into the circumstances as to where he came from, and by whom he was last employed. 1317. Would you be prepared, on your own part, to make to government that pledge upon your security which has been just mentioned? — Yes, I think i would. 1318. Supposing you wanted ao labourers, and 20 were encaged in this country to be indented to you for five years, and that you were called upon to give a security, or pledge yourself to pay 3 /. a year for each of these labourers, taking the chance of a casualty of their running away or dying, and those accidents whiv:h are more or less matters of chance and not of accurate calculation, would you, under the conviction of the advantages you were to derive from the labour of these men for five years, at a reduced rate as compared with the labour now em- ployed at the colony, undertake yourself to give a pledge to pay this money ? — Yea, upon a farm that is cultivated by tillage, but not on a graxing farm. 1319. Why? — Because one is of more value than the other; less labour would be required on the grazing farm. 1320. Supposing you closed with the ofier to take out 20, would you engage to pay 3 /. a year for them as a repayment for their passage, providing all assistance were given yon in securing their labouk' by local law ?— -Yes. 1321. Have you known any labourers carried out to the Cape upon indenture? —Yes, I took out labourers myself under indentures, when I first went out. 1322. Up< what terms did you engage them ? — ^The same as I mention now 1 1. per day, and subsistence. 1 323. What was the issue of that arrangement.'— Most of the men remained witli me, and immediately the indentures were out they then provided for themselves. 1324. For what term were they indentured ?— Three years. 1325. For what reason have you -nven up that system of supplying yourself with additional labour? — ^The reason >. that if I were to take out labourers, in the quantity which I required for myself, and there was no general system adopted for taking out labourers, they would immediately be discontented, and it would be very difficult indeed to retain theiu in my service. 1326. Upon any system of taking out emigrants, which yon contemplate, do you speak of adult males alone, or of women and children also ; and would you enter into any agreement with regard to the two latter? — I speak of adult males in the first instance, but women are quite as necessary there as the male adults, and children are equally useful ; the children should be indentured under circumstances, accord- ing to their age, for every child there is useful in some way or other, from 8 or 9 yean and upwards. 1327. Do you consider the labour of women and children is so valuable at the Cape, as to enable a person taking them out to repay by itistalments the ex- pense of the passage ? — Yes, having the use of their services for a certain period of years. 1328. Would you therefore, supposing you were to carry over labourers, think yourself justified in pledging yourself to payback, at the proportionate rate for five years, the expense of the passage of women and children, in the same manner as you have stated your willingnesa to do in the case of adult males? — Yes, there will be no difficult ip doing so, 1329- Are 1 .■>feit>'>- 1 ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. nj I3a(). Are you of opinion that the general feeling of the colony would be the •ame as you have expresHcd to the ('omtqittee?— I think, when it wna generally understood tlmt a rug\ilur supply would take place, that would be the result. 1330. Supposing that O'oo men and women, and 1 800 children, very young children, were to be sent over to the Cupe in the course of the present year, are yuaof opinion there would be that demand for the services of all these three classes as to induce parties on their arrival to enter into bonds to repay by instalments a certain rate of expense incurred in their passage, having the services of these rarties duly secured to them by local law ? — I think there would ; I speak as conceive I should act myself .1331. Are you of opinion that an emigration sent out on that principle, not previously engaged by individuals, would be disposed of in the first instance ^ easily as it might be disposed of in future vears, by people entering into previous covenants to tuke a certain number? — Yes, it would; if there were an office established in the Cape where persons could register the number of labourers they required, it would take place, and it would be found there would be a great demand for labourers, and it would then be clearly ascertained what the demand would be. 1333. Is the labour of slave-women constantly paid for at the Cape now? — Certainly. 1333- Is there a considerable demand for it? — A great demand. 1334. Should vou suppose that the labour of slave women is better or more pro- ductive than the labour of free women going out from this counti-y -I think not, slave men are generally employed now to do the domestic work of females. '33.5' With respect to the African hibouk-, will you have the gowlness to inform the Committee whether it consists with your knowledge that it often happens, in fonscquenco of the wreck and condemnation of slave vessels, a considerable number of slavf! apprentices are indentured ? — That circumstance has taken place, but n(t circumstance of the kind has occurred in the last seven ycurs. There was a small 8up|>ly forced into the colony by the wars between the natives themselves, eud they were taken as apprentices ; they were forced there, as before stated. 133^>- And the number of these Airican apprentices is not at any rate sufficient to interfere with the lalmurers that go out from this country ? — Not at all, such a circumstance is casual. 1 337- Would not a large influx of Euro|)ean labourers Iowct the rate of wages, generally throughout the colony, to the level of the wages of the indentured labourer ? — Certainly it would have an immediate tendency to that effect, and it would gradually lower them to that standard. 1338. Would not such a reduction diminish the temptation of the indentured labourer to leave his master?— Certainly. I339- Upon what terms can uncultivated lands be obtained in the new Settle- ments near the Cape ? — Generally the party goes to the Landrost, the chief magis- trate of the district, and he there makes u request for a particular piece of land ; the hemrorden is ordered to inspect it, and if it does not interfere with any private grant or public convenience, it is given to him ; the district surveyor is ordered to survey it, and he then gets his title from the government. 1340. Is the land which is so given him, free from the payment of any fees ? — No, a quit-rent rs generally charged upon it, according to circumstances and the capability of the place. .^ 1 341 . Is that a discretionary quit-rent ? — It is an nnnoal. 1342. Is the amount of it discretionary with the surveyor? — It is discretionary with the government, according to the report received as to its capabilities. 1 343. You mentioned some time ago having taken out some indentured servants who staid with you three years, and at the end of that time left you ; and you stated that during that time they were receiving one shilling a day ; were those persons at the end of three years in a condition to enter upon lands as rapitalists, upon their own account? — They saved money, for they had nothing but their clothes to find. 1 344. Do you know in point of fact what l)ecame of those persons ? — I believe they left the district, one or two were mechanics ; they went to Graham's Town, upon the govemhoent works. 1 345. Is it within your knowledge that any of those persons settled on lands of their own, after leaving your service?—! believe not upon their own account ; one or two of them still remain upon my land, but r^ it as servants; I allow them to . 237. , P remain D. y. Franeit, 17 March, 1817. 114 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEB D. P. Tnntu, 17 Miircb, remain there ; they had collected a few cattle, which is generally the caie an.3nff the labouring kinds of people, they collect a few cattle, and then they become amaU landholders or landowners. 1346. Do they pay you any rent? — No, nothing of tliat sort has been thought of. 1347. You consider the cultivation of the land bv their remaining upon it an adequate return to you for allowing them to stay ? — t'ecding the land, improves it ; there are only one or two jpersons upon it. 1348. Are you not ot opinion, that provided a system of supplyinR the Cap* wiUi labour were established on sound principles, tluit with respect to we manner in which such labour should be employed, and u to all the circumstances connected with the land and the cultivation olthe country, it would be best left to the discretion of individuals?— Certainly. 1349. Had these persons, who now occupy a portion of your lands, built houses at their own expense upon them i — They built houses before I left ; 1 allowed them to build houses, such as are generally conittrucied by the settlers. 1350. If you wish to rcniuvo them, do you anticipate there would be any difficulty in doing it ? — No, 1 apprehend not. 1351. Are you of opinion it would be desirable to hold out to an indentured servant, who may arrive at the colony under circumstances of emigration such as have been alluded to, that at thf expiration of the period of his service, if he haa conducted himself properly, he may have a grant of land, upon which he may eatablish himself ?—rVes ; I am of opinion that if labourers go out upon the principle which I have mentioned, according to their good conduct at the end of the contract, there should be some encouragement held out to them to become small farmers. 1353. Have Uie Dutch farmers been in the habit of emplojfing English labourers? — ^The English labourers have disappeared from the district of Albany generally ; many of tliem have got into the employment of the Dutch colonists, some have become a part of the family, as it were, living with them in the house ; a great many have been absorbed into the colony generally under those circumstances. 1353. Are tb«re not large tracts of land now in the occupation of Dutch farmers which are no' .ultivated i — A vast quantity. 1354. Whai are the causes of that non-cultivation ?— The causes have probably been, that there has been little or no foreign market for their produce; that the restriction on the importation of corn has been such, that there existed no induce- ment for them to grow it 1 355* Has it arisen from that cause, or from the increase of cost in growing it, arising from the want of labour? — It has arisen from both, for the Dutch farmer would never think of cultivating this land, of course, without he could get rid of his produce ; he knows pretty well what the extent of the market is, and he merely cultivates his laud with the view of selling it in the internal market, iiuJ to raise sufficient for his taxes ; but if there were ». stimulus in any sort of way for him to grow corn, I apprehend the Dutch farir.ur would then exert himself, and c\dtif ate his land properly. 1356. Where do you thmk he could find a market for his com?— At the Mauritius^ 8t Helena, and South America. 1357- What obstacle is there to the export of corn to these places you mention? — There has been a colonial law against it 1358. Is it in existence now ? — I believe not; I understand it is now repealed. . 1359. In your calculation of 4.1}/. per family, did you include in it the necessity of complying with the provisions under the Passengers Act .' — ^Yes. 1360. Are you of opinion that that estimate could be reduced, if the Passengevs Act were repealed ?- -I think probably it might 1361. In what degree? — I have not turned my attention to it I mentioned one circumstance, but I don't know if the Committee understood me to sav, that the new settlement would exhaust a supply of 600 or 700 settlers annually, I meant th« colony generolly, independent of any colonists who nuty be sent outr Tkmai Prktgk, Esq. Thomas Pringle, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 1362. HAVE you resided at the Cape of Good Hope? — I resided six years in that colony, half of which period I spent on the eastern frontier. 1363. Will you describe where you were settled ?7— In that port of thedi&trict of Graaffrcinet now called Somerset . , 1364. Can ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1897. 115 - 1 364. Con 70U give th« Coirtmittee any information with rmpeot to iKO labourer* who were taken out by Mr. Benjamin Moody to the Cape or Good Hope, in the yean 181 H or i8l7?---I beo; to premine, that I entered the room without the sligfhtest idea of beinf^ called upon to give evidence, but as far at my information extend*, I will willingly furnish information. I know something of Mr. Moody's rartv, having seen various individuals of them in different parts of the coloiij; believe I speak coreectly, when I say, that with a very few exceptions, they are now in a thriving situation. 1365. Hut did thoy actually repay the money advanced for their passage 7— I understand they did, with a few exceptions; and that those who have not repaid are persons generally of improvident character, who have wasted their profits as quickly as they made them. 1366. Did this 350 include women and children, or not? — It included women and children, but I am not quite sure as to the exact number ; I know there were upwards of aoo souls altogether, but whether there were 350, or more, I cannot exactly say. 1307. Do you happen to know the details of the engagement made between Mr. Moody and these settlers T — Not very minutely ; I know that the sum of money taken by Mr. Moody for their passage out, and providing labour for them, was ednsiderable, I believe not less than 60/. per family. 1368. You know that in point of fact, these people did repay a sum to that extent, and, notwithstanding such repayment, you think they are now generally in a thriving condition? — In point of fact, they have generally paid off Mr. Moody's claims, and some fc# individiials of them now possess farms tlicmselves. 1369. Have you had an opportunity of hearing the evidence given by the last witaess? — Yes, excepting some replies spoken in rather a low voice. 1370. Are you disposed mainly to agree with him in the opinion.i he has stated; or would you inform the Committee of any points ;>pon which you would wish to qualify your ess'ent as to such opinion ? — It is difficult for me, as I made no notes, to recall exactly what has been stated, but, generally speaking, I would concur with the evidence of Mr. Francis ; there were however some points with which I did not quite agree. 1371. Do you concur with Mr. Francis in the opinion as to the real demand for li^ur which now exists at the colony T — I certainly concur with him in the opinion that there is a demand for labour in Albany, but whether it is to such an extent that 600 or 700 labourers would be absorbed annually, I would not venture decidedly to affirm. 137'j. Are you of opinion that in the course of the present year that might be donef^ — I thinic tioo souls might be sent out, including men, women, and children, perhaps 700; but I would not think it safe to send a larger number till the experf* ment was tried, whether these were speedily absorbed. 1373' Are you of opinion that emigration, in the course of the present year, to the extent of soo men, aoo women, and 600 children under i4)rears of age, might be absorbed in the colony without difficulty ?— The number of children might cnate •ome difficul^f ; such vlrrge number of children' below the age of 8 or 10 years could not be of advantage to the fanners. 1374. Do yon suppose that aoo men, aoo women, and 400 children above the age of ten years, would be absorbed ? — Yes, if the children were above die age of ten, I think' there would be a considerable demand for them. 1375. Do vou concur with Mr. Francis in the opini()h that in the event of an emigration teking place to that extent, there would be no practical difficulty in finding capitalists at the Cape, who would enter into eng^rements to repay hj annual instalments the expenses incurred in the transport of those persons, sucn persons being indentured to them for the space of five years, and such indentures protected by a local law ? — I think there would be no difficult in ||;etting c^italisls to employ a certain number, provided they were indented at sufficiently low wages; that would be the chief difficulty. 1376. What would be the amountof the wages which you would consider capi- talists would be induced to ^ve over and above 3/. per annum? — Really I connas I have not turned my attention much to this point, and am not prepared to speak with precision in regard to it. I observe, from the examination of Mr. Carlisle, already printed, that a considerable number of capitalists in Albany have oflfered about 13/. per annum for male servants, exclusive of provisions ; atid so far as they have pledged themselves, I have no doubt that they would emptoy labourers S37. P 2 at Tluma$ Prkgh, 17 March, il'j;. ii6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE nEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Tkumnt Prmgle, ^ ■■ . ' 17 M»r(b, 1M7. at auch ^*f;t» u thoM ; although I nm nfrnid thnt thcrr in at prvKcnt n {^roat wlkot of capital in Allmiiy. '377- I' '' *''*' cuutom In Albany to give aiilmiittrncr indopunilent of wngon?— • Generally HubiiiHtrncn i> i^ivfn aloii({ with wo^i'n ; thn nvrvunt livi'H in u Iiounq adjoining;; that of thu mnntrr, iitid rt'coivcu daily iiuhMistcncc, cxcduHivu ul" the money wngoH stipulated. 1378. What in the amount of money wajjcH in udditum to Hut)Ni8tcnce which the iniutter at the C'apu could utford to ((ivc to indentured endu;rantN, iind ut the «ainc time aflbrd to come into the termx iiu|;|{extcd hy Mr. FranciM, of pnyinir ;)/. a head per annum in litiuidntion of the expenne inrurred liy the pamiugt' f- I feel a diHi- culty in decidedly unHwerin^ that question, and can only refer to their own opinion, when they Huy they couhl atibrd to give 13/. a year, provided the labourer wis ■ent out free to them. 1 370. Do you not imagine thnt a xettler in the (.'ape receiving 9/. a ycur wogen nnd subNiitcnce, would l)etter \m condition inconceivably as compared with nil wituation us a pauper in this lountry ?— Uncpiestionobly. 13K0. Would not that 9/. enable the settler to clothe himself, and expend the rest, or economize it, as he chose ? — Yes, 1 38 1. You think, upon the communication already received from the colony of II disposition to pay 13/., that there would l)c no doubt that if the emigrant could be indentured for 9/. a year, it would be inditterent to the master whetner he paid the other 3/. to the servant or to n fund in the colony? — Quite inditl'ercnt, I should think. 1383. Do you think thnt colonists there would be equally prepared to carry into execution this systrm, uh to women and children of the age described, as they would be US to the adult males? — In Albany, I conceive, the demand for women would be somewhat more limited than for male labour, n8 women could only be useful in domestic service, and I apprehend there is not Kuch n great demand for them upon the present system of farming there iis there is in Europe ; there are yet few extensive dairies to look after in Albany. 13S3. Has any proposition come over, with respect to women and children?— 1 think there hat:. 1 384. You would recommend the emigrants to be selected for such an object should be purely agricultural i — If agricultural labourers could be had, they would, without question, be preferable, but if purely agiicultural labourers could not bt; had, I apprehend a certain portion from the manufacturing districts might ht advantageously sent, though they would not be so valuable at first, inasmuch aa they would require to be trained to farm labour. 1 385. Are you not of opinion that the effect of introducing this emigration, on this system, would be to improve the condition of the Cape of Good Hope in its prosperity? — Very materially indeed ; I am of opinion that the English settlement cannot go on prosperously, at least its welfare must be very materially checked, if there is not a number of labourers sent over to a.4sist the farmers. 1386. Do you concur with Mr. Francis in thinking that the probable efl'ect would be, that the parties so indentured, when out of their indentures, would become independent persons or small occupiers of land, or shopkeepers ? — Many of them would become shopkeepers, so long as there was encouragement for addi- tional traffic in the district towns ; but I apprehend not very many would become small farmers ; I don't think that farming upon a very small scale is at present profitable in that colony.' ' 1387. It has been stated that the manner in which that is carried on at the Cnpe^ is by persons first settling on other people's property ; do you think that sort of location would take place ? — Yes, to a certain extent ; I know of several disbanded soldiers, who having saved a little money, have collected by that meanb herds of cattle and sheep, which they pastured on other persons' property, until their stock increased sufficiently to enable them to commence farming on an independent footing ; they then applied to government for a grant of land, and some of these -persons became very prosperous settlers ultimately ; some of Mr. Moody's men, ■ior example, have succeecled in this manner. Hut I must beg to observe that, gene- rally speaking, the process of the labourer rising to the rank of a farmer could hardly be expected to take place in five years ; I should say it would generally .require a much longer period, and perhaps the majority would never accumulate sufficient fundq to enable them to fym with advantage. 1388. If 200 men, 200 wometi,' and 400 children, were to arrive at tlic Cape 7n ^ the MiM uld t)N EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iltj. 117 the CMS tuppoaed, without fixed indentures, do you luppoie that the Mttlerathtrt would tiiko tlit'ni olF of their uwn accord at tho rttes you have stated, or would they tulcn advantnitn ot tlin circuniRtaiice of tho arrival of lo many, and endeavour tu makn a lowt>r l)iiru;uin tliemndven?— I cun hardly apeak aato the diipoaition that rn'mht exixt anionic tlio furmeri* to takewdvuntaKe of such acircumitance; I should think however thut the Hufer pliin would be to have them either indentured in this country, or irnt out upon some regular aytteni, which would obviate any weh difficulty. Ij8f). You would *ug({est that the indenture should be entered into in thi* country, with the parties who were to receive them? — I think it would be better for both parties ; if you landed such a number entirely unprovided for, there would ba aneccNHity fur employin)j; itome perHon tu louk ai^er their welfare, and prevent any undue advantage ueinjf taken ol them by de»i(;ning pernons. 13QU. Supponing all the emigrants were to be sent to the Cape on this lyatem, that they Hhuiild be under blank indentures, which shutild be filled up with the nam* of the individual coluniitt whu might receive them, do vuu think there would be any impracticability found in absorbing this emigration f— No, I think not ; there might indeed be inconveniences or ditficulttes experienced for a week or two, if thpy were landed at Algua Day, until the farmers cuuld come down to engage them ; for Algoii Hny, tlu) nearest port where thejf could bo landed, is above 1 00 miles from Graham's Town, and the centre of the Knglish tiettlenicnt. 1391. Do you concur with Mr. Francis, that it would be expedient ai atystenl to establish a board and office at the Cape, which might cunimunicate to thil country the progressive demand for labour, so that the Nupply may be made in future years according to the wants of the colonists ? — Yes, 1 fully concur in that opinion ; I also think it would he highly advantageous if a Uoard were established in England, to communicate with any such office at the Cape. 1393. You nre, then, conclusively of opinion that under such arrangementa a system of emigration could be progressively carried on between the mother country and the Cape, under the circumstance of repayment for the expense in- curred in their removal ? — Yes. 1393. Ila . not most of the present farming proprietors stores, which they sell and retail ? — No, I do not think that is common. 1394. Are you not of opinion that the greater part of the money wages under these indentures would be paid to the servant by the master in the shape of clothes and other comforts, and that they would receive little in money ?— I don't think it is commoii in Albany for ir uten to pay their servants in that manner ; though I believe it has been common to give them drafts upon the shopkeepers in the town, for goods in payment of wages. 1 305. Do you think that system would be confined to the indentured servants f — I think the mode of payment mi^ht be left to be arranged between the master and the servant; I would not have it rendered obligatory on the servant to receive goods in lieu of money. Hut there is so nuch competition between the storekeepen in Graham's Town, and the travelling hawkers, that the masters would not find it advantageous to keep stores with that view. 1 396. Are you a proprietor in the Cape at present.' — No, I have left the colony ; and have at present no intention of returning. 1397. Had you any indentured servant when you went there f— I did not go out with the intention of farming, therefore J took none;, but some of my relations, and other individuals of my party, did. 1398. Had they any difficulty with the persons whom they took as indentured servants ? — ^There was one of them, rather an unsettled sort of person, who gave his master so much trouble, that he got the indenture cancelled by mutual' consent and by legal authority ; the others served out their time, and v^ent ultimately to reside «mong the Dutch fanners. 1399. Have you any means of knowing how many persons have been going out under indentures, annually, of late years S— Very few, if any, I apprehend. 1400. Do you consider the sum of 60/. paid to Mr. Moody for each family, more than a necessary sum ? — I do not feel competent to answer that question, not being fully aware of the circumstances under which Mr. Moody engaged and carried out his party ; I understand that he did go under diaadvadtages which must have greatly deducted from any profits he hMi anticipated from the specula- tion, which in his case was entirely a private one; he had to provide freight and 337. P 3 all 17 Marcb, tls7. Eiq. L ' 17 March, Ita7. ^i. 118 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE- all otber contingencies, which government, or even private individuals now, might probably procure at a lower rate. 1401. What sum do you consider would be stkfficient, under ordinary circum- stances, to carry out a family of five persons to the Cape 1 — I have not made any calculation as to that point; but I observe *thc Commissioners of Inquiry in the colony have reported it as tlieir opinion, that from 15/. to 16/. is sufficient to land an individaal, ormale adult, at Algoa Bay. 140a. What should you consider the necessary expense for a family, estimating that it would cost 1 5 /. for an adult male ? — I could not give any opinion upon that subject, wit^out further consideration ; it has not hitherto come under my investi- gation at all ; but certainly whatever may be thb present estimate of the expense of sendin^r out a family, it might still be materially reduced by an alteration of the Passengers Act, which throws considerable impediments in the way of emigrants going out. 1403. Do you consider the difficulty of obtaining labour, the principal draw> back to the cultivation of the Cape ? — I think it is at present the principal drawback, so far as regards the district of Albany. 1404. Is the bad state of the markets any drawback ? — Yes, occasionally. 1405. Do you see any reason to expeot a change in respect to the state of the markets? — Yes, I conceive so; I think an erroneous policy has been pursued in the colony, in regard to the restrictions laid on exportation >f corn; it has been customary, whenever there has been any apprehension of . deficient harvest, to prohibit exportation altogether, consequently the farmer not expecting such re- strictions, or being uncertain whether or not they might be imposed, has been accus- tomed to raise oniy such quantity as he thought the home market would consume. ) 406. What are the natural markets for the produce of the Cape ? — ^The Mauritius, St. Helena, and South America. 1407. What quantity of grain will those markets take off? — I could not profess to give any correct information upon that point; I believe there are Cape mer- chants in town, who would be able to give the Committee satisfactory information. 1408. Is not wheat, in point of fact, exported from the Cape to the Mauritius? — Not recently, I believe, to any extent, in consequence of the deficient harvests at the Cape, and the consequent want of surplus, which, from the arbitrary restric- tions to which exportation has been subjected, is even in the best years seldom very considerable. 1409. Has not wlicat been exported to South America? — Yes. 1410. What time of the year do you consider the most advantageous for sending out labourers to the Cape, with a view of getting employment ?*— I think it should be in the autumn ; that wouiu ^'tobably be the best season. 141 1. Do you mean that they should leave this country then ? — No, tli "-hould land at the Cape in the South African autumn. 141 2. When would you think it expedient they should be embarked ? — Perhaps in December or January, so as to arj-ive in F"ebruary or March, in order to give them sufficient time to hut themselves if necessary. I conceive it of importance that they should arrive there before or during seed-time ; that is, from May to Septemoer. 1413. How long do you estimate for the passage? — ^Three months, or from ten weeks to three months, is the usual average ; if you sent them direct to Algoa Bay, a week more should perhnps be added to the estimate; I conceive it would be highly advantageous to scud them diiect to the eastern firontier, a great deal of expense would be saved by that means, it would save ,500 miles of coasting voyage, besides the expense arising from touching at Cape Town or Simon's Bay. 1414. Is corn imported into the Cape, or has it in average years yieldeu a suf- ficient supply? — Aly belief is that within these seven years it has been more frequently impotled than exported. 1415. Whence does the supply proceed? — It has been occasionally received from England, Van Diemen's Land, and I believe from America; American flour has been imported, I know ; that however, I conceive, has arisen from the prevalence of blight in the colony. 1416. Then there is uncertainty attached to the wheat crop there? — Yes, at present, but blight to any gre^t extent has only prevailed during the last seven years; previously it had been unknown for 50 years. 1417. Have there l)een several consecutive years of failure of crop? — Ye$, several years of partial failure. 1418. D6 (.'Ti^** ON EMKIRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. "9 should 141 8. Do you think that k likely to lead to the introduction of another sort of grain at the Cape ? — I think it is ; and I should hope that the introduction of «no^er kind of wheat may get rid, are long, of this vegetable distemr er ; it does not aflbct maize, nor barley to any extent. Previously to 1 Sao, barley bread was seldom or never eaten by the Dutch farmers, now it is occasionally used. 1419. Previous to these failures in these bad years, had corn been exported from the Cape to other parts, for instance, to the Mauritius? — Yjes, and also to England, I believe, though rarely ; I see no reason to doubt that com might be advan^eoutly imported to Endand from the Cape, provided it could be done under the same regulations as from Canada ; without such encouragement, there may be eventually some difficulty of finding a sufficient market for the coru grower. 1420. What ia the present price of com or wheat at the Cape? — It is generally sold by the Cape measure of a muid, which consists of three Winchester bushels. 1431. How many rix dollars did that sell for? — It has recently been sold so high as 30 rix dollars per muid or measure of 3 bushels. 1432. What is that, according to the present British currency ?— That is 309. per muid, or io«. per bushel. I would beg to observe, that the Cape is capable of producing many other articles besides com, and though that may be the principal object of exportation from the eastem districts, it is not the only one ; there is at present Merino wool exported to a small extent, a valuable produce, which promises to succeed on the eastern frontier ; experiments have also been made in salting Srovuions for the Navy, and, from the remarkably cheap prices of cattle, an abun* ance is capable of being supplied ; there is likewise a considerable export of hides, tallow, and other raw produce. I am informed by Mr. Thompson, a gentle* man who has just now published a work on the Cape, and who is a merchant in the colony, that he has perfectly succeeded in saltmg provisions for the Navy, and it is his opinion that this sort of export might be very considerably extended. The climate is moreover well fitted for the cultivation of silk ; the mulberry thrives remarkably well throughout, every part of the colony. The expense arising from the high wages of labour is the great drawback upon cultivation of all kinds, and on new experiments of any description ; but if that disadvantage can be remedied, the colony would be speedily enabled, I am convinced, to add many other exports to those it at present possesses. With regard to what I have mentioned as to the price of wheat, I perceive that my evidence has been mistaken ; I did not mean to assert that the price of wheat was usually so high as 20 rix dollars per muid in Cape Town or in |tny part of the colony, but in the latter part of 1 825 and the beginning of i826,>when I was in Albany, that was the current price there at the time ; the price of grain in Albany has been usually higher than at Cape Town, for, since the settlers arrived in 1 820, there has been no redundancy, but on the contrary a scarcity in the eastem districts. 1423. Will you explain the manner in which supplies of wheat from Albany are conveyed to the market of Cape Town? — There never has been, to my knowledge, any redundancy in that district since the settlers went out seven years ago ; on ttte contrary, wheat has been occasionally, I may say frequently, exported from Cape Town, to supply the settlers and the troops on the frontier. TAonut* Pringlt, Esq. ' ' 17 March, 1837. Il 1^ II -Yen, Ftederick Carlisle, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 1424. HAVE you heard the evidence given by the preceding witnesses ? — Yes, I have. 1425. Are there any observations you have to offer to the Committee, as to your concurrence or dissent with respect to that evidence ? — There is something I should wish to say relative to the rate of wages which is stated to be given in Albany. I observe the evidence which has been this day given differs, ua some respects, from the evidence given by me before the Committee on a previous occusion. with respect to wages which are given in Albany, it is quite impossible to form an average rate of wages, for men are not paid in any general way, (such as) by the year or by the day, but are engaged to perform certain pieces of work, which they do in their own time and in their own manner, and they are paid for such work, not by the day but by the piece ; now I know tliat the generality of them ^re in the habit of getting, in that manner, after the rate of 4s. a day, and frequei^tly 4t. a day besides their provisions ; I can speak to this point myself, tor 1 have paid it, and I have known many instances where others have also paid it. 1426. Do you mean to state, that the work a man upon task-work can r 4 execute Firderiek Carlisle, M r1 120 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFO{lE SELECT COMMITTEE trtdtriek Curluk, Esq. 17 March, iSa7. execute in the course of a day, has produced to him a remuneration of 4«. in money, independent of subsistence ? — Most undoubtedly. 1427. Do you mean tlie Committee to understand, that you have known cases where a labourer in the course of the year has earned any thing like 300 tini^es 4*., or that these are occasional days work, of.which there is no regular supply ? — It is impossible to say ; the demand for labourers is so great, they do not confine themaelTes to wprk every day in the week, and as they are not engaged by the day or by tlie week, it is impossible to say if they k 3 apply themselves as to earn that every day in the year ; but that they do gain that rate of wages from different persons, when they are employed about particular work, 1 am quite certain, for 1 have both paid it and known it paid. 1428. Is there any particular time of the year at which wages are higherthan at (Other times? — In harvest and in seed-time they may be rather higher, but, from the scarcity of labourers, all the employers cannot procure them at the same time ; ' there are not a sufficient number 01 labourers in the settlement for every employer to have them when he wishes, and consequently one person employs labourers at one time to do a particular piece of work, another at another time, when he can get them; but certainly higher wages are given at particular times of the year, namely, in harvest and seed-time, when there is work to be done, which must , be done under any circumstances. 1429. Could you state, with any thing approaching to precision, what a hard- working man, willing to engage himself as often as he could be engaged, might earn in the course of a year ?7— I have no hesitation in saying, that in tlie present ! cir^'umstances of the settlement a hard-working man may find task-work every day of the week, and earn 4*. a day all the year round, independent of any , obstruction, such as ill health, or loss of time in changing his employers. 1430. Will you be good enough to explain to the Committee, how it appears the proposition you conveyed to this country, which only meant to pay people at the rate of 1 2 /. a year, came to be so low, when considered with reference to this extraor- . dinaryreal practical high rate of wages which you have described? — Because the - subscribers to the document I delivered engaged to take such a numl)er of labourers • uthey conceived they could employ with profit at the wages they menti' ^ed, but not otherwise ; no employer is in the habit of giving 4*. a day all the year round he could not do it ; could he get a labourer at a I, a year, he would employ him all the year, and five or six of them, or whatever number of them might be required. 1431. Do you concur in opinion with the two preceding witnesses, that if an emigration took place in the manner whicii has been detailed ip the course of this examination, namely, 200 men, 200 women, and about 4oa^children above ten years old, that there would be no practical difficulty in absorbing such labour by the capitalists there taking the individual upon the indentures previojisly prepared in this country, at the rate of 9/. a head money wages to each man, and so in proportion for the woic^n and children, they agreeing to pay 3/. in addition in repayment of the expi e of the transport of such emigrants? — I tliink there should not be quite so many ; if they were sent out with a view to the continu- ance of the supply, but if they were to be sent out in one year, not with a view of continuing such emigration, that such a number would be absorbed there cannot be a doubt, and there would be a sufficient number of persons found to employ the labourers at the rate stated, for instance, 12/. a year, or 9/. a year, returning 3 /. annually ; but such plan contemplates the labourers being indentured for five years ; now the settlers from whom I come, generally speakinir. object to their being indentured for so many years as five ; they prefer them to be indented for three years. 1432. Vou are aware the colonist may have his choice, whether he will pay ^ /. a year for three years, or 3 /. a year for five years ? — That would too far reduce the . rate to the labourer. 1433. It is necessary you should understand, that on the supposition of sendin"- an emigration of 800 persons, future emigrations would be regulated by the real demands of the colony, to be ascertained through the medium of an office in the cr\ony to communicate with this country, so that there would be no danger of unlimited Emigration, as it could always be governed by the real wants of the colonist? — I should conceive, then, that it would be much preferable tQ send a smaller number than 800. 1434. Is the demand for labour almost exclusively for agricultural purposes? — It i^ chiefly for agricultural purposes. 1435. Do you know any thiug of the habits of the weavers in England and Scotland ? 237- ;0N EMIQRATION.FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSi;. 121 S/'otland? — No,» I cannot My that I atn much acquainted with the habits of that Fredtrick CutlnU, description of people. 1436. Would tney be persc^s well calculated for menial labours? — I should rather think not, from what I do know of them. 1 437. You have a general knowledge, have you not, of the habits of the weavers of Great Britain ? — I think I may say this much, that if a person has been accus- tomed to sedentary habits all his life, he cannot be well calcul^ed for the active ' Te of a field labourer. 1438. It is all field labour that is required, is it not.' — Chiefly tield labour. 1439. Ib i^ "<>t labour of a severe kind, requiring great muscular strength? — Yes, generally speaking ; but there certainly are employments to which people of a diflerent description might be put. . 1440. liut is that the principal source of a demand for labour ? — No, it is not. 1441. Is thb cultivation of the land profitable to the land-owner? — Under the present rate of wages it is certainly not. 1442. Do you conceive there are no other drawbacks belonging to that country, except the rate of wuges, that render the cultivation of the soil unprofitable ? — There are natural drawbacks that we have in some instances experienced, but we cannot consider they arc to last always ; the chief obstacle that at present pre- sents itself to the land being cultivated in the colony with profit, is the scarcity of lat>our. , 1443. What are those other natural disadvantages, and how do you expect them to be overcome ? — The greatest that we have met with is the blight that the crops have been subject to. 1444. Does the present price of grain afford a sufficient return to the cultivator? — The present price affords a sufficient return, provided that labour could be obtained at a reasonable rate ; and when labour is obtained at a reasonable rate, if the same prices of produce remained which at present exist, certainly the produce might be raised with great advantage. 1445. But if the effect of the increased quantity of labour was to give you a great increase of produce, where would you find a market for it ?— 'That is a ques- tion which cannot, perhaps, be answered immediately ; but the circumstance that Sowing to the want of available labour) no surplus has yet been raised, may account or my not being prepared with any method in detail for the disposal of such sur- plus when produced ; but that markets may be found, I think there is no doubt, for instance, the Isle of France, for butter, cheese, and a limited quantity of corn; South America foj^ corn, and England for corn, wool, hides, &c. 1446. Would you wish to make any other statement to the Committee? — I should merely wish to make an observation respecting the apparent difference of opinion between the witness, Mr. Francis, and myselt, on the subject of wages, which is, that the rate of wages as stated by me, relates solely to a particular por- tion of the colony, whereas that of Mr. Francis relates to the colony generally. Esq. 17 klHrrh, i8i7. Ill % m 41 Lieutenant Thonrns Charles White, called in ; and Examined. 1447. HAVE you surveyed a considerable portion of the territory in the Cape of Good Hope, near the Algoa Bay, and can you speak to the extent of land which is unoccupied and uncultivated there ? — I have surveyed the country between Algoa bay and the Sitsikamma river, to the extent of about 50 miles in-land. 1448. Is there, in point of fact, an extent of good land unoccupied, and not cultivated t — There is a great deal in that tract of country at the foot of the hills, particularly near the Croome river, and from the Sitsikamma cr, and it is unoc- cupied at present, at least it was at the time I made the survey ; it is a kind of land and country which the Dutch farmers set no value upon, there being too much moisture, the grass is too rank ; , they give their attention almost exclusively to grazing ; but it would answer the purpose of an English settler much better than any kind of soil to be found in the country, and to which they would give preference. 1449. Have you had an opportunity of hearing the evidence which has been given by the preceding witnesses?- Yes. 14,')0. Are you disposed to concur generally with them as to the probability of the absorption of such a number of emigrants as has been mentioned? — Yes, in that respect I perfectly concur with them ; but in some respects I differ with them, and with a great number of individuals at the Cape, for whose judgment I have a great respect. It strikes me that the prospects of a man going out there may be much 237. Q better Lirut. C. niiilr. 17 Manli, 18^7. < M 122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Liriit. r. C. Hhile. 17 Muirli, |8>17. better than those of his employer. I don't anticipate much profit to the farmer from the employment of labourers, but it strikes me that there is no doubt in the world that in a very short time t'.ie labourer will find himself in very easy circum- stances, and in a condition to provide food for his family without any very great degrpe even of personal labour. :'45i. In point of fact, if such is your opinion, you would naturally suppose that these indentured labourers would merge into the class of shopmen and farmers, after their indentures were over ? — Very soon after. 14.52. You think the general population cf the Cape would be increased* and require an annual supply of labour to feed them? — Yes, I think so. 14.53. Would it be possible for the population to increase in a more beneficial manner than in this progression, in going out as indentured labourers, and then becoming capitalists ? — No, I think not, except thty were sent out with such assist- ance from government as to enable them to become proprietors without passing through the state of farmers' labourers in the first instance ; I conceive that might be accomplished without any great assistance from government, but it would be required to some extent ; provisions are extremely cheap ; beef in the interior does not exceed three farthings per pound, and in those years when the corn fails there are a great many substitutes which are not liable to blight, and which would answer them, if they are located into a proper situation ; there is an abundant supply of provision and food. 1454. Have you had an opportunity of reading the Report of the Evidence taken last year before the Committee ?— I saw Mr. Carlisle's evidence, given before the Committee. 145.5. You did not read the Canadian Evidence, did you?— No. 1456. You have stated, that you consider the situation of a labourer goingout, to be more advantageous than that of the person who employs him ; will you state the grounds upon which you give that opinion ?— It appears to me that the demand would not be at all commensurate with the supply, should the number of capitaliflttf be materially increased ; that the farmer's produce would be too great, there would be no sale for it, unless a new market were opened for it ; but the man who merely looks to a sufficiency for the maintenance of his own family would not be liable to the same di.suppointment as the farmer, who produces more than he requires him- self, with a view to sell ; one is free from the disappointment to which the other ia exposed. 1457. But under these circumstances, upon what grounds do you found the opinion that there is an inducement for the further extension o(. the cultivation of the soil ? — In my own case, I may state I am going out there ; it is my intention to occupy a grant of land made to me, and in order to cultivate or to bring it to a certain degree of cultivation, it is indispensably necessary that I should have a few servants to assist, setting aside for the present the probability of profit from their labours ; the land is of no use to me without labourers, it would not support my own family ; and from my own personal knowledge, there are many individuals in the colony who are similarly situated, and who require servants at the present moment ; but as to the number required I am not at all prepared to say, but! know many instances personally where they are required. 1 458. You look, then, to going there for the purpose of obtaining a mere existence, without selling such surplus produce as is to give you any of the luxuries of life 1 — It is more with a view to employment and amusement, and for the convenienciea of domestic life, that servants are required by the persons to whom I have alluded. I do not see myself how the farmer is to improve his circumstances by the employ- ment of labourers beyond what I have mentioned ; he is not permitted to export any surplus produce. 1459. If the supply of produce be redundant one year, will not the demand for labour fall off the next year? — Yes, I think so, certainly. 1460. The tendency of the supply of produce, you say, is to become redundant, consequently the tendency of the demand for labour must be to decrease, roust it not ?— Yes ; at present I may say there is no supply of labour ; it is necessary, to induce a few people of the labouring class, who are in that colony at present, to do any thing for the capitalist, to make them very tempting otiers, absolutely to bribe them to do it. 1461. Are the Committee to understand you to say, that small as the su^ of labour is, it is .still redundant with regard to the produce, and the produce greater than the demand ? — Not at present ; a demand for labour exists at the sent moment, but to whet extent I am not prepared to sny; I know it does ex ew ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 123 and Few capiialists who went out in 1819 have a single servant on their farm at this moment ; they certainly require two or three ; the common cenveniencies and com- foru of life require that they should have that number of persons. 146a. Do you consider that the great temptation which there evidently is to exchange the condition of a labourer for the condition of a small farmer, arises not 10 mucD from the increased profits, as the desire of independent possession of pro- perty? — I think it is the desire of independence; the climate is mild, little is required, few clothes are necesary, a house is soon built, food is extremely cheap, so that there is hardly occasion for exertion to obtain all these things. 1463. But beyond the condition of a labouring farmer cultivating his own soil, do you think it extremely difficult for a colonist to rise ? — I think it is, under existing circumstances. 1464. You have heard the proposition which has been made to some of the preceding witnesses, with respect to sending out labourers to serve under indenture for a certain number of years ? — Yes. 1465. Do you think that it would be worth while for a settler at the Cape to enter into terms for engaging a labourer for a number of yearr, at small wages, under indenture ?— Yes. 1 466. Why do you think that would be worth while, if the demand for labour is so uncertain as you represent it to be in the case of settlers at the Cape ? — A great number of individuals are desirous of having labourers sent out to them, not with a view to profit, but domestic comfort. My opinion is, the colony is able to main- tain a very large increase of a certain class of its population, the small farmer cul- tivating his own soil, not the capitalists, nor the men who set out as farmers of a superior order. I have no doubt that some labourers are very much required there, for tlte purposes I have mentioned. 1467. Does your opinion coincide with that of the other witnesses, that in the course of the Autumn of this year, two hundred men, two hundred women, and four hundred children above 10 years old, landed at the Cape, would be taken up by the colonists, on the principle of paying 9 /. money wages, and 3 /. a year as a repayment for the expense of the transport of each individual? — I think to that extent they would find immediate employment. 1468. Have you any market for your surplus produce ? — Not that I am aware of, under existing colonial regulations. I conceive a i;reat number of persons in the colony would be glad to get labourers from F.ngland, even though it led to a diminution of their income; I do not say this of persons who derive their income irom business as fetrmers, but of those who arc in passession of incomes diiferently derived. 1469. Do you know whether in average years the colony has grown enough food for its own support, or whether it is in the habit of importing? — I think, with the . mention of flour occasionally, nothinply of labour in proportion to the demand? — I have no question that the Cape can absorb an aaaual supply of labour, provided that supply be pro- 2;] 7. Q 2 portionate Henri/ Ellis, Erq. 124 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE llEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Hfitrii Ellin, 17 Mnich, I8i7. portionate to the demand of the colony, and I add, a demand actually exists in the colony for that labour. 1473. Are you not of opinion tliat one of the consequences of such a regulated dupply will be to increase natural productions at the Cape, for which a market will ultimately be found? — I have no doubt of it, inasmuch as certainly there never has yet been an adequate supply of labour in the Cape, nor have the capabilities of the colony at all been brought forth in consequence. 1474. Do you not consider that the main impediment to the developement of the resources of the colony is constituted by the deficiency of the supply of labour? — Inasmuch as where there is a quantity of land capable of cultivation, and capable of various productions, and that that land has not been cultivated from want of labour, I conceive there can be no doubt that the colony is susceptible of very considerable improvement. 1475. How many years were you resident there? — Only two years; not quite two. 1476. Will you have the goodness to instance that by the Cape itself? — I give as un instance, Cape Town ; if it were merely to be retained as 1 military and naval port, there would be no reason why more corn or provisions of any kind should be grown than was sufficient to supply the garrison and the crews of the ships happening to touch there ; in point of fact, the cultivation has gone much beyond that ; this has arisen from the increasing population. The vine has been grown there ; that would never have been grown, if it had not been for the increase of population, and labour being directed to such productions as the soil was ca- pable of bearing. If it had been merely looked to in a military or naval point of view, no district would have been cultivated now but the Cape district. 1477. Are }ou prepared, as you have always kept up an intercourse and acquaintance with the Cape, to concur in the opinion given by the witnesses this day, as to the probability of an influx of emigrants being absorbed in the manner suggested by this Committee ? — I can have no doubt of it ; for, under every disad- vantage, three or four thousand persons have been already absorbed since 1 820. 1478. Do you not consider that, admitting the emigration were to take place this year, it might take place in future years on the principle suggested in the course of examination, the annual demand on the part of the colony being made known through the medium of a correspondence between the Cape and this country, so that only so much labour might be sent out as would meet the de-< mand ? — The details of any measure of tliat kind present considerable difficulty, and they vary with the circumstances of each colony. I am not prepared to say that perhaps the persons now resident in the Albany district are the best persons with whom you would negociate for the supply of labour, but I have no doubt that persons employing their capital at the rate which has been proposed, that is, of paying 9/. to the labourer, and 3/. to government, would mevitably find it answer. In truth, when it is considered there has been an unfortunate visitation of providence, in the blight of the corn for three successive years in a new district, it is not fair to argue from an accident, that such must be the case in the colony generally ; I am quite convinced that if it had not been for that accidental blight, which was the principal disappointment, and some other collateral circumstances (I allude to certain measures of the colonial government, and to the change in regard to the township of Bathurst) the number of settlers sent out in 1820 and 1 82 1 would now have constituted a well-conditioned, comfortable population in the district of Albany. 1479. ^^^ y^" ^'^^ ^^ opinion that the principle of an emigration of labourers, who may ultimately be converted into small capitalists, is a sounder principle of emigration than encouraging artificially the emigration of capitalists? — If I under- stand the principle, I take it an emigration of capitalists would bring with it labour, for any capitalist applying his mind soundly to the subject, would find he could do nothing with mere money unless he got labour, and therefore an emigra- tion of capitalists would in itself be an emigration of labour. 1480. Do you not think it aggravates the difficulty of emig^tion, if at the same time the capitalist and the labourer go out together; or is it not more natural that the capitalists should go where they choose, and then the supply of labour should be given afterwards? — As I understand the purpose of the emigration con- templated, it is to rid this country of a redundant population ; that is the principal object. 1 do not think that any capitalist in this country, looking to the rest of the world, would select the Cape as the place upon which he would employ his capital, for undoubtedly the profitable return from the Cape is not so certain as it is con- ON EMIGRATION FIUhM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 125 is in Canada and New South Wales ; but I happen to conceive it to be more cer- tain than others do. But if I am aslced with a view to the emigration of persons whose labour is not wanted here, whether their labour is not wanted at the Cape, and will not be paid for, I should say in the affirmative, it is wanted, and will be paid for. 1481. Do you mean as unproductive labour, or as productive labour?— I consider that if labour in this country is so redundant that the individual is not employed he is unproductive in this country, and must be maintained from the labour of those who are employed and are productive ; so that if the labourer or unemployed pauper in this country, who cannot be called productive, becomes an emigrant to the Cape, and produces his own maintenance, I hold him to be a productive labourer, as compared with the unproductive pauper in this country. 1483. Having heard the evidence of the last witness, who asserted that there would be a great demand for menial servants, meaning labourers for the house- hold, which would be unproductive labour, and such as produced nothing from the land, will you have the goodness to state if in your opinion the emigrant would be employed as a productive labourer at the Cape ? — I must take the liberty to suggest, that I would correct the last witness ; for in a country where you send a number of people to land that has nothing growing upon it, the menial ser- vants you want are persons who will help you to grow something. Among the settlers who went out to the Cape, there weie some who took out a small capital ; while that capital lasted, they wanted food and servants, and food and servants were found them. Those who did not set to work as persons in a new country ought, soon got to the end of their capital, and there was an end to their means of purchasing food, and hiring servants ; and what is much to be regretted, if they had not had the means of coming to this country, they must have remained paupers or labourers there. 1483. If you have no sale for your surp' is produce, what interest would you have to grow any thing more than you yourself consumed ? — If I were to admit the first part of that question, that there was no sale, it would be a different matter ; but the fact is, that hitherto the population of the colony has been so sparse and inadequate to the extent of the soil, that it is quite out of the question to say what would be the exports of the colony. 1484. What are they? — The exports are various ; among them corn, when the colony is not visited by the blight. The year before 1 arrived at the Cape had been a bad year : we were obliged to send to India aud other places for a supply of corn ; but before it arrived, the prospect of next year was such, that actually in that year there was a considerable ex|)ortation of wheat from the Cape to the Mauritius and to South America. It is in the knowledge of the Committee, that two years ago, when various schemes were going forward, and every one was contemplating the formation of companies, the Cape was selected as a place sus- ceptible of agricultural speculation to a certain amount, in the same manner as Australia ; I was not surprised that the scheme did not go forward, for His Majesty's government were so tenacious of the productive acres at the Cape, they would not grant them, except under severe conditions ; they attached so much value to these acres, that a million of them at the Cape was thought a most monstrous demand, 500,000 would not be given, 200,000 were quibbled about. But it was the opinion of capitalists, that the scheme would have taken precisely the same character as the Australian Company has. If it had been supposed that there would be no export, certainly the capitalists never could have contemplated employing them- selves upon what was not to yield an export, as, in no other shape could they have got a return for their capital. I have mentioned this project, because it shows that all persons do not entertain the opinion that there can be no export from the Cape. To that proposition was subscribed the names of those persons who had had the best means of estimating the value of land at the Cape. 1485. Has not the tendency to export, even under the high prices at the Cape, been such, that government has been obliged to prohibit exportation ? — Certainly ; it was, in my opinion, a very mistaken policy on the part of government, and a policy which, when in office there, I very much contested, for if upon a notion of scarcity you are to prohibit export, it is quite conclusive, that the prohibition of export will be the prohibition of cultivation. i486. It has been stated, the price of wheat at Cape Town is in British money and in British measure, 8o«, per quarter; is that so? — I don't recollect any such price ; perhaps some other gentlemen do, who are more conversant with the sub- 237. Q 3 ject Uturji EIIU, 17 March, 1H17. ta6 MINUTES 01 EVIDKNCIi BEFORE SELECT COMIMTTEE lltnry Ellii, 17 Marrb, 1817. h I;: ject; but about (en rix dollars the muid was conaidcrcd as a remunerating prioa during my stay in tiic colony. 1487. How is that price of wheat at Cape Town consistent with the aasertioa, that there is a redunaance of supply in Albany ? — I cannot conceive how that can be, where there are no markets regularly established. Suppusinq; a market not to be regularly established, and one individual to have been particularly suc- cessful in his crop, and to have a redundancy, as far as the consumption of his own family went, if there were no market established in the district to which he could send bis redundaut corn, he would be in the case of a person having too much corn ; yet there would not be a general redundancy. It is the absence of a local market in a new settlement I am speaking of. In a new settlement, a man who hai a garden will not be able, immediately, to find a market for his surplus vegetables, there is nobody near him to buy them, and the vegetables must be lefl to rot in the ground. It is impossible, in the first formation of a settlement, for markets and every thing to be established at once; therefore any redundancy of supply which may be alleged to have existed in Albany, must have been an accidental or insulated redundancy. 1488. Would not the progressive increase of the population tend more to correct that consequence than any other circumstance? — Undoubtedly; for an increase of population is generally followed by regular markets, and every man knows where to send the redundancy of what he grows, and to find a purcliuser ; but it is im- possible for a man dig^^jng in his garden, in which he might have cultivated pro- duce, to leave his garden and cattle, and a wife and family, with his basket in hi« hand, as he might in a street in London, and say, Who will buy my surplus carrots and vegetables ; he is obliged to leave them perishing on the ground. 1489. Y'ou have stated, that if there were an additional supply of labour to the Cape, various productions rniwht be raised in the colony ; will you have the good- ness to state what those productions are, besides grain ? — These will be determined by the nature of the soil and climate. I do not profess myself to be either an agriculturist or a botanist, or a scientific person, but I have understood that every production of the temperate zone, and many of the tropical regions, can be grown at the Cape. 1490. In looking to an export market from the Cape, what are the countries to which you direct your attention? — Why, to the Isle of France, which is nearest, and to South America, and I think to India. I should also look to the fisheries, to supply the markets for salt fish, which exist in different parts of Europe and elsewhere ; on the eastern coast of the Cape of Good Hope there is a species of fish in great quantities, nearly resembling the cod, which is capable of being salted ; there would be salt fish, whale oil, wool, hides, com, wine, dried fruit, and pretty much those productions that belong to the Mediterranean. 1491. What are the articles which you would propose at present to carry from the Cape to the Mauritius and the Isle of France, which are the markets for corn ? — It certainly cannot be a very considerable market, for the population of the Isle of France is not great ; but 1 have known merchants at the Cape send corn advan- tageously to the Mauritius and to the Brazils. 1493. Is not the vine susceptible of great improvement?— Undoubtedly it is; and as yet, whttther it be in agriculture, or whether it be with respect to the vine, every thing in the Cape has marked the want of capital, the want of knowledge, and the want of labour. But I beg leave to modify my opinion, by saying, that I do not for an instant compare the capabilities of the Cape, for the absorption of popu- lation, with Canada ; I only go to the extent of saying, that it is capable of a certain absorption of population, not the least in proportion to its apparent geographical extent, but in proportion to those parts of it which are capable of arable cultivation ; there is a great deal of land not capable, from the aridity of the soil, of being useful for any thing but pasturage ; and it remains to be tried, whether it will grow any grass but the indigenous grass of the colony; no experiment has been ntade by introducing different sorts of grass, so that I cannot say what is its capability for pasturage. 1493. How long did you reside there ? — Two years. I may say with respect to Albany, I weiit up there, and my duty mos to locate the settlers, to place them in the grounds allotted to them, when the emigration took place in 1 820. I saw that {Ntft of the country ; my evidence roust therefore be taken as the evidence of a person who applied his mind, while at the spot, for a year and a half, but whose pmoBftl knowledge of the details cannot be great. 1494. HoA ON EMIGRATION PROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1S37. 1^7 1494. Hat not the Dutch pari of the colony been settled under disadvantn^^eout oircumstaucei? — It was settled in reference entirely to the advantage of individuals applying for grants of land, and without any reference to the capability of the colony tor maintaining the population. »49.5' Were not Hettlers permitted to make choice of spots very much where they liked, with reference to water and so on, without general reference to one situation or another? — Clearly so, in the early part of the settlement. 1496. And by that means, was not an intermediate space left unsettled ?—Ym. 1497. How many labourers would be immediately absorbed this season, without injury to the colony ? — I should say, that this season, considering the vicissitudeH of the crops that have lately occurred at the Cape, and the general discouragement produced there, it would not be safe to make the experiment beyond 1 00 families, at the most. 1498. Is it of material consequence that there should be a number of children, or as few as possible? — In a new country the fewer helpless people vou hive, the better; and if you take a child, it is not right to calculate he can make any return under lu years of age ; vou must have some ; there would be little risk of health ; tlie return of deaths of the colonists in the new settlement, from the emigration of 1820 and 1 8'^ I, I should suppose has not exceeded the average mortality of places in any part of the world ; I do not know that it has exceeded the average in the rest of the colony. 1499. Do you consider the climate as prejudicial to children? — Quite the con> trary ; it is impossible for any climate to be more favourable to the human consti* tution than the Cape of Good Hope. 1500. What is tlic ordinary drmk of labourers at the Cape?— Wine, generally. 1501. Are you of opinion that there would be no danger in sending to the Cape this year a well assorted emigration, consisting of 100 men, 100 women, and 300 children? — I think not, on the principles which I know are contemplated by this Committee. 1 503. Do you concur with the opinions given in the course of the examination to-day, that for the future a system may be adopted, by which the real demand of the colony may be regularly supplied? — I have no doubt it may, and the result will be, the increased cultivation of the colony, and with that, the increased pros- perity of its inhabitants. 1503. And a progressive increased demand for labour.' — I should think so, as a necessary consequence ; I think increased prosperity involves a progressive de» mand for labour. 1 504. When you »ay you have no doubt this emigration may be absorbed, do you mean to convey an idea, that the money laid out in sending them, would be gradually repaid by their employers by instalments, under the system of inden^ tures? — I should think every part of the repayment would be made. Applying myself to the Cape, of which I know mo;e than of other colonies, I think the period should be extended as long as possible ; if the persons who engaged with them, and took them under those indentures, were persons of industrious habits them- selves, and lived as men in a new country ought to do, that is, with the necessaiie* and few of the luxuries of life, I have no question but that it would be repaid in the course of five or seven years, that is, 3/. a year, paving so much less to the wages. The ground of it is this : I take the price of slave labour in the Cape ; a ploughman would get from 15 to 20 rix dollars per month; at the time I was there it was 20 dollars, about a /. ; 1 j rix dollars would be 304. ; he was fed besides, and he was clothed partially ; they are not persons who work very hard ; free labour, at the rate of 1 a /. a year, would be considerably less ; my calculation for the slave was 18/. a year, besides his food and some clothes; if it answered the fnrpose of the people to give 1 8 /. a year with food and some clothes to a slave, cannot conceive it should not answer giving 1 a /. to a free labourer. 1 505. The question is, whether from your knowledge of the Cape, under the circumstances which have been supposed to-day, you could undertake to recom- mend the incurring of preliminary expense, with the probability of ultimate repay- ment by instalments? — The way in which I would answer it would be this; if I were engaged in a company, I very much doubt if I should make my experiment at first with 100 families, I should be inclined to make the experiment with 50 > families ; but when I consider that this is a great national measure, I have no. hesitation in saying, that one hundred families might be safety sent out there ; for I conceive you have the great object in view of getting rid ofunemployed persons here, and it is not a simple debtor and creditor account 237. Q 4 1506. Now 17 March, i8«7. Hfhtij F.llu, 17 Mvrrli, 1817. W.S. Mr. Norlkhoiui . 10 Mairh, 18K7. ia8 .MINUIES OF EVIDENCE UEFOKE SELECT COMMIITEE irioG. Now, without looking to repuympiU nt ull, would nut that populMtion lo iicnt out, be more canily absorbed ? — Unqueittionubly ; 1 believe if there were no rcpnyment nt all, the population wouhl be better there tlian here. I, 507. If then fore no repayment In looked fur by the parties ao'\nf( out, or the pc/honit who took them there, will not a Inrgcr number of population be absorbed ? — I hnvc mentioned ion fiimilics, nnd I crrtiiinly would not, under the actual circumstances of the colony, f!;o beyond 100 families; and if it were not a national measure,- 1 would 'my u sninller number would be a safer experiment. 1508. Would y<)u say that you think this Committee might be recommended to encourage Government to send out emigrants to that amount? — I would say the Committee miglit safely recommend to Government to send 100 families out 1,509. In the ncv' settlements of the ('ape, is the intercourse carried on entirely by barter, or is thrre any currency in circulation? — As the new settlement forms part of an old established colony, the currency in the colony has necessarily found Its way more or less into that new settlement, for there was a certain sum of money deposited by the scttlerts who went out in 1830-31, and these deposits, repayable upon the spot, in this new settlement, put them in ample possession of colonitl currency. 1,-5 10. Is there then a certain amount of currency in circulation f — Yes. 1,51 1. Was the 18/. which you calculated to be paid to the slave, in money or provisions ? — I was taking a case ; I was suppof«ing a man with a farm, who wanted to hire a farm servant, and not owning a slave himself, to go to a person having a slave, he would give that in money to the person who supplied him ; but I was applying myself to the old established districts of the colony, v/here there existed that ilave population. Miirtis, 20' (lie Marlii, J 827- Mr. William Spencer Nortii house, being ajrain called, delivered in the following Paper, which was read. " Honourable Sir, " London, iijth March 1827. " WE beg, through your medium, to lay before the Honourable Committee on Emigration, a few Extracts from letters written by Settlers in Upper Canada to their friends, at various periods ; we believe the persons writing are all known to Captain Marshall, to whom we would refer you. These extracts prove, to a moral certainty, that capital invested in the proposed undertaking is secure of a return. ' " Grateful for the attention already paid to our requests, we "e loath to press for a premature decision : but - *.he feverish anxiety under which the petitioners are suifering, the prospect of the season passing away, when preparations should be making to facilitate embarkation ; the accounts we daily receive, of tlie continued distress of many, and the anticipated destruction of most ; the certainty, that in two •hort months a crisis will arrive, when the petitioners will he rendered iacapable of availing themselves of any futtire grant, and whatever is determined upon this Spring must either rescue them from misery or plunge them into absolute despair—' renders this suspense <>'--::'^st intrlerable, and induces us to beseech the Commityse to bring its procecuings, in " -r case, to a speedy conclusion. " We are, Honourable Sir, " Your obedient humble Servants, " John Tail. " The Hon. R. J. W. Horton, " James Wilmn. Sic 6ic. &c." " W. S. Northhouser . EXTRACTS: From Andrew Angus to his Parents. ' " Lanark Township, 24 Lot, 10 Concession, 13 January iS3a. • " - - - For my part I like the country very well ; and I think any one who has a mind to work pretty hard for two years, may look forward to something like independence, as we can perceive by those who came here three years ago. Mr. Gemmil nor I ever had an hour's sickness. The summer is a great deal warmer than with you, but not intolerable ; the winter is very cold, particularly at night and morning, but from ten until four afternoon we can work with coat and vests off at chopping down trees, which is very pleasant work. • • - This was having This ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 129 Thb country produces excellent potatoes, Indian com, wheat, and in fact almost every thing a family needs, besideit a number of luxuries. We are worst off for clothes, until we be able to raise sheup and lint; both thrive well here; indeed the wool is said to be equal to the Merino. • . - / The larger a family is that comes out here, has the most advantage of doing well; there are some that came out in 1830, with six children, and without a farthing but government allowance, bought two cows, and maintained tiiemsclves on their land until they raised crop sufficient. - • • If trade itf 'no better in Glasgow, vou could not do better than come out; tf the country was not in the hignest aegree healthy, I would not advise you to come out. - - -" June ad, 1824. " - • - I wish you had come out here at the time I came, as by this time vou would have been out the reach of dull trade and high markets, except as a seller. There were none about us but what had a good deal to dispose or; for my own part, last year I raised as much provision as would have dcpe me for two years ; we had a good ready market for our flour at the mill we get it ground at (about fifteen miles from where we live) erected by Captain Robertson lor the use of the emigrants ho brought out. [Having been badly with the fever and ague, he P'occedi.] However, my work did not fall bcliind, there was an acre nnaa half which I had not got cut down, notice was given me there were some coming to chop it out on such a day, which they did ; tiicn I had no more to do than to send word I wanted it piled up for burning, when about thirty men turned out and logged off about three acres in one day ; others came in and put in my crop ; in fact, I am further forward with my work than any of my neighbours, which is always the case when one has trouble ; the neighbours wdl turn out from six to eight miles to forward their work ; but sickness is very scarce in tiiis settlement. I wish you would all come out if you could ; I could not advise you with so much confidence before, but I see now that any family coming out, and able to support themselves until they raise the first crop, have always plenty of provisions after- wards." April 1 8, 1 835. " Tliis place has been settled little more than three years, and some that left Scotland with nothing, have now from 13 to 1 8 bead of cattle, besides sheep and hogs, This townsnip grows a great deal of wheat and Indian com of the best quality ; my own crops have always turned out remarkably well ; this year I had as much flour as would have done me three years, besides a great deal of other grain. I planted five quarta of Indian corn, the produce of which was 50 bushels, and that is not thought a great crop ; from seven bushels of potatoes I h^d 340 busheli. To give you some idea how tkis township has come on ; we have an annua' meeting, where we choose our office-bearers ; I was appointed assessor, I had to go to every house to take an account of clear land, number of inhabitants and cattle; there are 1560 people, 95 oxen about four years old, 1 80 under four and above two veal's old, 338 milk cows, and more than 1000 under two years old. The taxes, which all go for school and bridges, are trifling, 3d, for every milk cow, 4 I ;!i i: -i i 19<) MINUTES OF KVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTBE Mr. W. a. Sorlkkomt. •o March, poUtoei, and th«< rest in hay for winter feed for the cattle, which comist of a cowi, J voun|{ oxen nsin(( 3 year* old, j of lut year, and i of tbia year, making 'n aU 8 head of cattle; add tuthiii 1 ho(f, t sow, which we «xpeot will have u litter of pipfi; the cocIih and bcna uru the Haine number m tiiat re^^iment often tried and never found to fail, 4a, whirh Rupply u» with ubuiidanif uf c(f|{i. ' - • • FVom WUiiiim M'MiUan to his Children id CambiMlang. " Palbouiie, a4th Au|piit iSaa. " Wr. ar«i very much lurpriaed that yuu have neglected the opportunity Cuvern- ment has given m srnding out familieH to tltin place ; it appears to us to bi> like the parable, ' When the dinner wiis rendy, for excuHe, the one hud iiinrried, the Other building a house, &c.' I am afraid you will never get such another oppor- tunity; 1 wish you were all here, wc would soon be happy ; we like the place well, and the governor, Colonel Marshall, is a very fine gentleman. There is no in- convenience from Rummer's heat or winter's cold, I can work in winter with my coat off throughout the day. Ue sure to embrace the first opportunity of coining here." From Jamea Dobbie, to his Father and Friends. " Lanark, U. C. a4 April l8a6. " ■ • - I and my family arc still taking well with this country ; and I really do bless God every day I rise, that He watt ever pleased in the course of His providence to send me and my family to this place. We are not without difficulties here, but they are nothing in comparison to your wants in Glasgow ; we have always had plenty to eat and drink, and have always had a little to spare. Next to my own nappiness, I wish vou were here ; I wish you would trv and do all vou can lo come out ; you will find plenty of work, and hard work, but be assured it will pay you, and that well. My stock of cattle coiiHiHts of one yoke of oxen, three milk cows, and three young ones. I have got up a very handsome new house, with the assistance of fifteen young men ; it was raised in one day ; it is 34 feet in Icii^rth, and 15 in breadth. Col. Afarshnll will be in Glasgow ; call upon him, and he will give you his opinion of this place." June 36, i8?6. To his Cousin. — " Would to God, my dear friend, that you and all my friends were here with us ; by labouring on tlie land, you would be inde- pendent of trade, andi with the blessmg of God, you would always have plenty to eat and drink, which, with health, mues life a pleasure. We have always Bad plenty since we came here, for ourselves, and have still sold more or leas every yeav. Our superintendent, Col. Marahall, is going home, it is said, to bring out emi- grants to be settled in two townships in Lower Canada ; now you should do ajl you can to try and get out, let notning hinder you, if jfwssible. All this lettlo- ment is striving to do well ; were you here, and seeing toe improvements that are going 00 amongst us, you would not believe that we were once Glasgow weavers." Peter Monro to John AfLachlan. " Dalhousie, 6 May 1 834. " - - - If it had been so ordered that you had come here when I came, you would, by being industrious, have had plenty to eat of the best flour, Indian com, and potatoes, and to drink of the best milk, maple sap, molasses and honey. Last harvest, I laid in 140 bushels of potatoes, besides grain of all sorts. You may depend upon it we had a number of difficulties, but now they are almost oven; yet we may still expect to meet with losses and crosses. Last January, I lost one of my large oxen, yet providence has always been kind to me ; the first twocalwcB I had were oxen, they are now three years old, and are able to do the moat of mjr work. I have got a large house built, 20 feet by 30, and « bam ao feet by 40." 37th November 1 826. To the Same. — " We hear there will be an extensive immi- 'gration next Spring ; I would seriously advise you, as a friend, to enrol your namfe and family among them as early as possible ; and, for your encouragement, I will tell you, upon my arrival at Greenock from Paisley, depending on a certain friend for the supply of a few pounds to pay my passage, I was disappointed ; but therfe were a few more in the same predicament; we were, in all, 27/. short, but raised the.spm by subscription. We then got orders to put our luggage aboard. Jolin, I never was happier in my life than with that order; and now, have I not reason r - - - " ' Robert ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1817. 131 Robert Fleming tu u Friend. " Lanark (U. C.) 34th April 1835. " • - • I AM itiH tnalnnK it batter. I kuvu ttbuut ei^i^ht acrei of land bcarin(( crop, and two more makin{( ready. I have two co wa giving milk, a yuke of oien, a two-year old iteer, and a youtig bull ; wbarely aufficient for tbeffl to build their huts to shelter them ftpm the inclenienoy of the weather, and to prepare the ground for the succeeding spring's cropping ; now under the latter circumstances which arc thus contemplated oy the Committee, it will be most assuredly twelve months before any return can be received from the labours of the setders. The Committee distinctly understand that there are no lands whatever in the British colonies' denuded of wood; the only districts in the North American hemisphere clear of wood, are at present too remote to furnish a place of location for our emigrant population. 1513. Are there no tracts of land, such as the Americans call Prairies ? — None in the Canadas; the 'Prairies are confined to the nor(,hei:n b^k of the river Ohio, and are not the meat profitably cultivated lands after alt. 237. R 2 1514. You fy. B. Felton, % W. B. FtUtm, ao March, i3'i MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 1514. You think, therefore, that any fc^timute would be fallacious, which did not take into consideration the maintenance of the tiettlerH for a period of a year, and possibly for a period of 6<''^ccn or sixteen inontlis ?— To attempt to carry on a settle- ment on a lar^e scale, without ensuring the settlers provision for twelve months at least, would assuredly be attended witn disappointment. In respect of the differ* encc in the expense of provision mentioned in the two estimates, it is to be observed, that according to the calculations of the gentleman from the Cape of Good Hope, beef, which is the basis of the diet proposed for the settlers, is almost valueless, whereas provision of all descripticms in the Canadas usually sells for a price relative to tne producing it ; that is an advantage which ultimately the settlers will profit greatly by. The second or third series of settlers arrive in March, and contribute to enable the first established settlers to pay a large proportion of the sum advanced to their maintenance, by their purchasing of them their pro- ductions ; but if provisions remain at the present price at the Cape, I do not see any prospect of their selling their surplus to advantage. 1 am so convinced of the certainty of agricultural produce obtaining a remunerating price in the Canadas, that upon that I ground my project for the repayment for tue provisions which shall be advanced to the settlers, conceiving that if the government receives in kind the provisions it lends to the settlers, they will always be enabled to convert them into money, if they are not disposed to distribute them among the new coming settlers. I will take the liberty of submitting to the Committee my proposition upon that subject. [71(e Witness -elivered in the same ; which was read, asfoUows :] VjLAN for the repayment of the Provisions furnished to the Emigrants, . after their arrival at the place of location. Each Family of five persons to be allowed to take up from the public store provisions for 1 5 months (consisting of flour or meal, pork, and molasses or sugar, as in the Table of Rations) the quantity being left to the discretion of the emigrant, but not to exceed in value 40 jr. for each month; so that the whole supply, if required, estimated at 3 rations per diem, including seed grain and potatoes, will be iC- 3" - - Interest on 30/. at 5 percent, for five years - - - 7 10 - /:• 37 'O - In case the emigrant does not take up to the full extent of the allowance, he shall he charged only with the value of the actual supply. In the event of the emigrant repaying one-half of the amount (say 15/.) before the expiration of five years, he shall be allowed three years more in which to repay the remaining moiety, and the whole sum thus liquidated shall be free of interest. If he defers repayment until the expiration of five years, he shall be charged with the principal sum advanced, and the accumulated interest thereon, the whole forming a lien on his estate ; and at the end of the sixth year, the interest on' die principal (i/. io«.) to be exacted, and payment thereof to be required annually, alwa.s subject to the deduction correspondent to that portion of tlie capital (30/.) whic^a he may repay in the interval. The repayment of principal and interest to be made in produce ; vie. pork or graiti at the prices fixed for those articles at the time oC the advance being made, grain ijeing takei, at its relative value in respect to 4our or meal, and the emigrant to be allowed the option of paying money either in whole or in part. At the end of nine years the settler shall be required to pay 30 per cent, or one-fifth of the debt (37/. 10 «.) and so on annually until the wntje ia repaid, which will xhiVd be accomplished in six years. Tablk of RATiowa. t \ lb. of flour ot meal, a' I lb. of pork, a' - - - a 02. of mohrtM or sugar - M - a - -I 3 ration! allowed for 5 persons; tix.1 ^ 1 ^an, I wommii, 3 children ' •/ - 5* I 31- per diem. ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iBay. Table of Raiiow— continued. 60 weeks rations, a' 1/3 { per diem Seed grain and potatoes \'a. 2 bushels wheat, a' 5/ 5 bushels oats, a' 2/ 10 bushels potatoes, a' 3/6 Indian com and grass seed 5 - - 3 9 Z-a 8 9 If. B. Ttlton, ao Mtrch, 1897. fl 837. Mr. 134 MINUTES OF EVIDEIfCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Nil ■■ %, UN EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSaj. 135 Mr. David Policy Francis, being again called in, delivered in the following Pqier, which waa read : ESTIMATE for the Transport from Emland, to Algoa Bay and the Location Mr. within 100 miles of that Port, of a Family of Emigrants, consisting of two T>-P.Trmei$. Adults and three Children. *^ '^ ' ,' , A 30 Match, Passage out, including Freight, Provisions, Water, Fuel and Birthing 36-- Waggon-hire for 100 ntiles - - - ' % "i - 2 pair Blankets --...-.-15- Furniture and Cooking Utensils - • • - 1 10 - Mechanical Implements - - - • • 1 -^ ~ Farming Implements -.-..-|_._ Seed Wneat, Maise, Potatoes, Garden Seeds - - 2 - - 1 Cow .- - - i__ 3 Milch Goats - - - -12- Six months Provisions, allowing 5 lbs. Butcher's meat per day for the Family, and 1 d. per head for Bread and Vegetables - -. - - - - 710- £ ■ 54 10 - N. B. No allowance is mads for building a house, as every man able to wield an axe may erect a comfortable shelter in three days ; but it would be expedient to allow every family a tent for t^vo or three weeks at first, to secure them, in case of wet weather. 1515. You have heard the evidence given by Mr. Fel.ton, with regard to the necessity of from twelve to sixteen months provisions in Canada ; will vou state what are the circumstancei^i of difference between that settlement and the Cape, which, in your judgment, render it necessary at the latter to provide only six months provisions? — Never having been in Canada, I cannot speak to that; I can apeak only as to the Cape. I conceive that if a settler arrives at a proper season, thai is, in April, and is Jmmediately placed upon his land, he will in the course of six months be able to raise sufficient to subsist himself. 1516. At what time of the year would it be necessary for a settler to leave England, to be located at an hundred miles from the place of landing in April ? — It would take about fourteen weeks ; I mean from the port of embarkation in the United Kingdom to Algoa Bay or to his location. 1517. You mean including the time necessary for his being settled then ? — Yes. 1518. In order to land at the end of April, he must leave England by the beginningof January? -Yes, he must. 1519. jDo you cocoeive thst the risk and expense accompanying the transport would not be considerably increased by uie necessity of n aking a winter passage ? — No, because immediately after they leave England they get '.nto fine weather, and they would arrive there in the summer or the beginning of autumn. 1520. At what time would the settler begin to sow his seed, so as to p; 533- '^U unoccupied ? — Yes, all unoccupied ; one million acres of which, I con- ceive, might be located to very great advantage. 1534. Is it not liable to incursions from the Caffrees?— It is ; it lies bordering upon the Caffrees; but I apprehend, if there was an European establishment upon A proper footing, those incursions would not take place so frequent. '535- What quantity of land should you propose to give to each settler ?--The quantity of land, I think, should vary according to the situation. In that district I would recommend villages, ir. the first instance, to be established ; tu give them a Small portion of ground to each family, such as from two to four acres at garden ground, and then for their cattle should feed in common, because it would Be necessary, perhaps, for them to be in a body. 1 536. You mean for the purpose of protection ? — Yes. 1537. Is it to this district you have calculated an hundred miles of waggon conveyance ? — It would be more than an hundred miles to the part I have men- tioned. When I made that calculation it was with reference to other landit ; I merely made it as a general estimate. 1 538. What would you add to the estimate, for the purpose of meeting the increased distance ? — I would add fifty miles, or thereabouts. 1539. Then half as much again as is set down would do for the convey- ance ? — Yes. 1 540. Is the nature of the country such as, in the absence of roads, to be easily accessible? — Ves, quite so; the natural roads are very good, if they can be so called. 1541. Upon what are the remaining items of the expense put down by you, calculated? — The implements I have estimated upon Uie prices in England; the cow, at the price in the Cape. 1543. You do not suppose that the demand for labour in other parts of the settlement would have the effect of drawing away settlers after their six monthi were out? — I think it would not have that effect, they would find themselves so well off after an establishment of twelve months, that they would not be induced to leave. > 543- Would there be any inducement in the high price of free labour in the neighbourhood of the Cape ? — No, I think not ; this would be at a diataace of 700 niiles from the Cupe. . 1544. You have stated, you thought the tribes in the neighbourhood would not attack an European settlement; on what, ground do yon state that? — I found xaj opinion on what I have known to be the crjc in the colony ; the Dutch boors, who are the old colonists, and the natives, have always lived on Very bad terms ; liat the natives have generally shown a disposition to be much more friendly towards the English, and I conceive, with a proper sjrstem adopted, one of mild- ness and firmness, there would be a lucrative barter trade carried on, to mutual advantage. 'Mj- You think with that systen, they would be iu no danger f — Yes. that is loy opinion. 1546. Upon ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1887. »37 1546. Upon what ground have you made a reduction from your evidence on Saturday, in the expense for a family, from 45/. to 36/^? — What I mentioned on Saturday, I then took at what was allowed to the settlers when th«y vyent out n i8ao; they were fed very differently; this estimate if with referenoci to Mr. Buchanan's plan of feeding them. 1547. Would not those settlers have considerable difficulty in obtaining cloth- ing for themselves?— They would generally be clothed in skiqs, which they would tan themselves, such as their sheep and goat skins; that is the general clothing of the Boors, and that description oi persons in the interior. 1548. With what growtn is the surface of. the country at present covered? — Grass of two descriptions ; there is a sweet and'a sour grass. 1 549. In calculating your expense to the Cape, have you taken the same esti- mate ot the number of passengers to the ton, which Mr. Buchanan has taken tr> the North American Colonies? — Yes. 1 550. Do not you conceive, from the difference of climate, they must n^ake 8om0 difference in the room allowed, and also some difference in the amount of pro- visioqs, which must be calculated on ? — I think there should not be quite so many to a ton to the Cape as to the North American Colonies. 1551. In making your calculations as to the Cape, you perhaps omitted to take that into your consideration? — Yes, I did not think of that at the moment; it is very essential. 155a. That would make some difference in the expense, then? — Yes, a little; but not quite so much as may probably be conceived. 1 553- Do you think as much provisions per day would be necessary in. the pas- sage to the Cape, as to the Noipth American Colonies ? — Yes ; and it may be ne- ., (pessary to vary it, on account of climate. ; Thfnuu Lacoste, Esq. called in ; and Examined. »554- WHERE do you reside ? — At Chertsey, in Surrey. '■ •5,55- Have you any unemployed poor in your parish? — Yes, a good many. 15,')^- (^^n you state to the Committee at what rate they are paid? — I believe that, throughout the winter, we allow two shillings a head per week for a mau. the same his wife, and eighteen-pcnce a head for the children. I. 557- Do you set them to work on any thing ? — Yes, we set them to digging griivel and skreening it, and breaking stones for the roads. 1558. Do you set them to work upon that, for the sake of employing them, or for the sake of any material profit ? — Principally for the sake of employing them, 90 March, i8fl7. 337- Sa MO MINUTES OF IVIDENCE BEFOUE SELI-CT COMMI'lTEE Mr. Jama Tofltr. 90 March, 1817. J Mr. Jama Taylor, called in ; and Examined. 1609. WHERE do you reside?— At Feltham, in the county of Middlesex. ' 1610. Are you overseer of the poor? — Yes. 1611. Is there a select vestry r — No, it is an open vestry. I aiA assistant overseer. 1612. Have you a great many unemployed poor ? — We have had during the winter; ours is a small parish, it consists only of two or three thous'^nd ; we have had a great deal of want of labour for the last two winters, more particularly owing to a good deal of vegetable being cultivated in our parish for the markets in London ; there has been generally a want of labourers in the summer time, which has been supplied from other parishes, but in the winter we are generally very short of employment for our labourers. 1613. What is the principle on which you pay your unemployed poor? — When •ny come out to the parish for employment or relief, they are generally referred by myself, as overseer, to the surveyor of the roads fbr employment, and if he , cannot give them employment I am obliged to give them relief. If it is a single man, they do not always give them a shilling a day ; for working on the highways, or for digging the gravel and mending the roads, it maybe five shilling^ a week ; if he has a wife, he has a shilling a day ; if he has a wife and one child, he has seven shilling^ a week ; if he has a wife and two children, he has eight sbillinn': if he has a wife and three children, he has nine shillings, and so on to any numbe they have ; there are one or two with six children, who have twelve shillings . week ; that is about what we generally give to common labourers. 1614. Do those men work, that are so put upon the roads or the gravel pits ? — The^ do not cam even the money they get of the surveyor, In the general way ; they get into a low degraded way, and seem as if they did not care whether they did it or not, and it is with difficulty that we can get them even to do that ; if we were to have this gravel dug by the load, at the price of sixpence a load, I think the parish would get more Toads done for the money than they would by giving them a shilling a day. 1 6 1 5. Except during the month of harvest, you have not the same families always on the parish ?^ — We have two or three, ours being a small parish, who have bjen so nine months out of the telve, for the last two or three years, just going out at haymaking, and continuing off till the harvest, and then returning afiiin to the pit ; and we have been so full of these kind of hands during the win'.er, that we came to a resolution this year not to have any gravel carried on by carts, but to wheel it on by hand. 1616. For how many miles ? — Our parish, from beginning to end, is very nearly three miles. 1617. Why do not those hands, who you say are on the parish nine months out ' of the twelve, get into the gardens in the summer ? — There are some who may do 80 for a little while ; there are some who do not get employment, owing to their deficiency of character ; and it gets into a kind of settled opinion, that in a parish of this kind, the men, after they have been on the parish in this kind of way for •ome time, get naturally indolent, and then they could not get recommended ; people will not employ men who have been a good while on the parish, they sup^ pose they get into an idle habit, and careless about every thing. ^61 8, Ho^v many cottages do ydu pay the rent of? — We have belonging ^a the parish, as parish property, thirteen rooms or houses. Men who have three chil' dren seem to think they have a kind of right to a room in the parish, Uat it gives thein, by cuMoro, a kind of right. 1619. For how many cottages do you pay rent in addition? — It comes to about 50 /. a year at a/, a week, that would be about ten. 1630. At what would- you estimate the expense of a family, of a mait, a woman; and three children, who were out of employment all the year, and wbotr. the parieh were obliged to support, aud for whose work there was no real demand?— W« have no such case as that, but I can easily state what it would come to ; w« should allow a man and his wife five shillings, and for every child they had they would be allowed one additional shilling Or eighteen pence ; thelarger namher they hlrt^ got the smaller is the allowance made, because they are messing together. 1621. You have heard Mr. Lacoste mention the idea he entertains of the probable inclination of the parish of Chertsey to agree to remove some of the pauper families ; have you any families whom it would be desirable to remove on similar Wip*^ toaboat emove on •imikr ON EMIGKATIUN FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 141 similar termx? — There ure several of them I think it would be economical and politic to remove, and very desirable for the individuals, if they were placed in the circumstances which have been represented. 1622. Do you think the vestry of your parish would be disposed to charge their rates with from eight to ten pounds a ycnr, for ten years, to. get rid absolutely and for ever of families in the proportion of a man, a woman, and three children, for every eight or ten pounds so mortgaged?— It is very diiiicult for a man to give the mind of the parishi I believe that most people who know much about vestries, know there are widely different opinions, as men are ditferently situated ; some are proprietors and occupiers, another is only a proprietor of a small property, another is a large occupier and no proprietor at all, and tliekr interests operate differently on their minds ; one farmer has a lease about to expire, and he does not care if the rates run up a little, for he can make a better bargain with his landlord ; on the other hand, another h^ just made his lleose afresh for 21 years, "Now, he says, we must be most rigidly economical ;" and these things make people speak diflercntly in a vestry, accordmgly to their different situations. itias. Vou, as overseer, are enabled probably to represent, in some degree, the feelings of the parish ; what do you say about the propriety of consenting to these terms r — This plan, as stated to me by an honourable member of the Committee, I think is one for the benefit of the people (I was going to say interested; in the parish, and likewise of the poor themselves; a very good one, both in point of policy and in point of utility. I will say, as overseer, there are some people who ■ay, " I have got no work and no money ;" leaving out of consideration those who are not able, we cannot give them work, we must employ them. There are many who would rather live a dog's life, hungry and easy, than stick to work and have something more ; those I call the lower order— the destitute almost. There are two descnptions of poor ; I distinguish them by the profligate and the industrious poor. There is one mar. becomes poor by a wanton expenditure, when he earns money ; he will earn money in the summer to a considerable amount, and -ipend it every Saturday night; this very individual in the winter has got nothing, »nd he comes to the overseer, and the overseer is obliged to relieve him, and he is actually taking the rates of men who have been earning less than he has. The law of England does not enable us to inquire how a man has become poor, but if he is poor he must be relieved. But in a vestry there arc different people, and different ways of thinking; there are some who would oppose the thing, and those perhaps af^era time would fall into it; but, speaking my own mind, I think it is the best thing which could be done ; it is permanent relief ; it \s good to the landed interest, because it may prevent their property falling, which as the poor rates rise must decrease in value, because, if a landlord lets his estate to a farmer, he lets it for a given number of years ; in the course of that time the poor rate may become double ; at the expiration of the lease, says the tenant, " I shall not give you above so much rent in future," I was talking with a principal farmer in our neighbourhood yesterday, who told me that the poor rate upon his land was ten shillings an acre. 1 624. Have you not a manufactory in your parish ? — Yes, flax spinning. 1625. There \9 <«ome idea, that if some of those families were to be removed where a manufa.:toi7 exists, like your flax manufactory, by taking apprentices whenever there wtis a demand for hands, the gap would be immediately nlled up ; can you state what has been the practice at Feltham ? — We have been very much increased in our poor's rates of late ; the fact is, that we had four eighteen-penny rates last year ; our disbursements have been years ago as 1 igh as they will b» this year. With respect to the apprentices, as I said before, « ur burthen has been increased by that, no doubt, for, twelve or fourteen years ago, tl 3 occupiers of those mills were m the habit of taking a large number of apprentices from the different workhouses in London and in the country ; they would send a cart, ar i bring ten or twelve at a time, at 5/. a head, and they would in forty days become settled in our parish ; our OT«rseers took those on the parish, and 'elieved them, which was wrong ; being acquainted with apprenticing, 1 objected to that,' I would not relieve any of them anring the time they were apprentices ; I threw a great many back upon their masters, and the consequence has been, that the present proprietors of the mills will not take any apprentices at all, they had been so loaded with them. There is a gendeman, that left the manufactory six or eight yeais ago, he had a number of apprentices; I have sent him a dozen or fourteen ; I have told them to go to him for relief as their master, because their apprenticeships were not out. It :i37. S3 is Mr. Jamti Tat/lur, 90 Mnrcb, flimm^^'r^ I4J MINUTES Ol KVIDKNCF BEFOUE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. JatMi Td.yfcr. 10 Mnrch, 1837. is very well known liy tlic Coiinnittce, tlmt 11 man taken his apprentice in tbc same way as ho does his wife, for better for worsr, and he must maintain him for seven years ; this being tlio case, has so far kept down our expenses , but then wc feel the t'frcet of that wliicli lias been done several years ago, and that makes our rates higher thiin in the surrounding parishes. i(ii<). The obliging the nm.sters of manufactories to keep their apprentices dur- ing the seven years, has had the efl'ect of restraining them in taking apprentices? — Yes, the manner in which thev get their hands now is difl'erent ; they hire children to attend the spinning machines, and it is done by children and overlookers ; one man looks after aeven or eight or ten children ; they take them now by the week from the surrounding parishes, some from our parish and some from others, so that we have our share in the benefit of it; they pay them from half a crown a week to six shillings, 1627. So that if any accident should befall any of those children, or the works should stop, the children go back to their parishes?— If the trade is very dull and heavy, thev pay off their bonds, and send them back again ; and those they have taken lately from the workhouses in London, they send back again ; the con- sequence is, that the parish officers do not think it worth while to send them. 1 638. The effect of that in the parish of Feltham has been to restrain masters from taking apprentices ? — Yes ; the proprietors tell me they have taken no appren- tices, male or female, lately ; they have had sixty apprentices at a time within these seven years. 1629. Do you think those degraded paupers, whom you call profligate, would be ready to go to Canada, and commence clearing land? — They are not so likely as diose I should call the industrious poor, and I do not think they would be likely to succeed so well. 1 believe there arc a nundier of industrious poor in our ,jarish, and men who would put u|) with a great deal of privation to keep oil' the parish. 1630. Those who would be willing to go are not those who are now receiving parish relief? — I am not alluding to any who do not receive parish relief; some receive it by way of their rent being paid, some by way of clothing, some at par- ticular times of the year, in the winter, and so on. 11631. Would the emigration of those respectable and industrious paupers relieve y»)U from the necessity of supporting those of a diflerent character? — 1 can hardly tell that ; it would certainly make way for their having more employ. 1G32. Would they take advantage of the means of employ? — They might, on some particular occasions ; but it is rather doubtful what would be the efl'ect of it upon them. 1633. In your parish you would not think of ' ending out any that you did not think the parish would gain from the sending? — No, certainly not. 1634. Would tho.se by the sending of whom your parish would gain the most, be those who would be willing to go ? — A great deal depends upon how you can .state the case to them, for Englishmen and the generality of the lower orders are \ery much attached to their country ; though under a certain degree of privation, they are .so attached to the soil, and so tender of being sent out, they will say, We will not be transported. The idea of being transported to America lias lost ground now, because the convicts are sent to different parts, otherwise the very name of it would frighten a great many ; but I believe that when once the prejudice of the poor people and the interest of people in the parish is got over respecting this plan, it will be a very beneficial one, and one that will be followed up, and that there will be even a desire to go upon that plan ; but it takes a length of time to get over the prejudices of the people. iCs/;. You stated, that there arc a number of houses for which you pay at the rate of 2 s. a week, besides your own ; to what description of people do they belong? — A man that has built a number of little low huts like cabins, on specu- lation ; they belong mostly to one individual, who has got perhaps seven or eight and twenty altogether. 1636. Do they pay parish rates?— O yes; we allow them to compound for so many being full at a time ; the overseer goes about four times a year, and he hardly ever finds them occupied by the same persons. i(i37. The rent at present derived from those cottagen is a much greater object to the owner than any reduction in the poors rates? — Yes ; tliose cottages are in the hands of one man ; he built them on speculation ; he turned bricklayer and carpeulei' aud all, and built them. 1638. If ON EMlCiHATlON I HUM TIIK UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. MJ l6j8. If tlie pcrxonN who mv. now inliubiiiiiK tliusu cottn^cM wore removed by this MyNtein of enii^rution, have yuii uny ininiiis of prcvfruin^ tlicir being: filled af^ain ? — No, not of preventing tiiat, for tliere arc many not occupied by the poor of our pariih. 1039. Have you any penionK whom you relieve, reiiidinj; in other parishes? — O yes ; we hav< no workhouse ; we relieve fumilirM to the amount of sixteen or seventeen shillings a week. 1640. They are pcrHons for whom you have no room at home? — No, our poor- houMCS are all full ; tlie^ always (ill, and we pay rent for ten more. 1041, Do you couMidtr that thoNe persons so relieved in other parishes are relieved by you at a cheaper rate than if you had tliem at home ? — I cannot say ; we have no workhouse in our parish. l()4'i. Do you conceive that persons whom you relieve in other parishes, you relieve at a cheaper rate thuii if they were in the houHO.4 in your own parish ?- We relieve them on a small scale ; we give them half-a crown ; there is here and there a very infirm person who has had three shillinpis, and some few three and sixpence. i(')43. Arc there any persons now living in a distant parish, to whom you pay a certain sum, to prevent their coming home, and throwing themselves upon you altogether ? — Tliose are mostly widows and cliildren ; there is one very innrm man at Reading that wc pay to. i('>44. Are there any persons belonging to your parish of this description, per- sons living in a distant parish, who gain a certain ((uantity of employment there, and to whom you pay a certain sum of relief to prevent their coming home to you, and throwing themselves altogether upon you ? — There is a man and his wife at Reading, to whom wu allow 2.f. a week, and he has got three children. 1645. Do you conceive that if that person knew there were houses in your pari.sh vacant, he would be likely to come home to his own parish, and thereby become chargeable to you altogether? — No, he works in a silk manufactory ut Reading, ami he has u boy, who is capal)lc of doing a little ; he is very infirm ; we went down once to see him ; wc made this allowance, because, from his ailing state of health and that of his wife, and one child they had got not being competent, ■we thought that they ought to receive an allowance. l64ih, what should you then allow him?— If he was at home, we should find him some work ; ow ing to the state of the man's health, wc could not set him to wheel gravel ; if wc were to cease to allow him the two shillings a week, Reading would remove him immediately. • 1647. If he were removed from Reading to your parish, what would he t'len cost?— I believe he has three shillings a week; we have no work he could do; if he was employed on the roads, the surveyor would allow him a shilling a day, and I should lifve to make up the amount ; the surveyor would pay him six shillings a week, 1 should pay him three shillings, making nine shillings a week. 1648. When you say you pay those people at this rate, do you pny the rent l)e8ides ? — Yes, for most of them, not all ; there are about three or four and twenty families that we want rooms for, they are mostly the men who are out of work. 1649. The persons for whom you pay those rents, are in the receipt of nine shillings a w^ek nine months in the /ear, and have their rents paid for them ? — Ves, iti.'jo. Is there any other mode of gaining a settlement except apprenticeship? — Yes, a yearly servitude ; wc get an increase in that kind of way ; the- * are farmers who go to country fairs round about, sometimes as low down a.s Reuiing, and hire their servants from the country ; owing to their getting a little more money near London, they get their servants rather cheaper : When they have served a year, they gain a setUemetit, then after they have been for a year or two, they want to go on their own hands ; they do not get so high wages lower down, and that is an inducement to them to leave, and that brings on a good deal of burthen on the parish. 16,51. It is for the interest of a farmer to go and get his labourers from a distance, in order to obtain tliem cheaper ? — Yes, and they do that. 1652. Have you seen this year the wav in which the poor of Merton are em- ployed? — Yes, I had occasion to goto Merton, and I walked from Kingston to Merton ; in going up a lane, called Combe-lane, I saw a quantity of people, eight 237. S 4 or Mr. Jurntt Tojihr, •o Marob, 1817. M4 MINIJTRS OK KVIUKNCU DEFOUK SKLKCT COMMITTRK Mr. Jtmu Taylor. so March, iBa/. or nine, wht'eling \f,tVLSK\ iiiun^ the road, two or three in a cumnany, with each of them a burrow ; I expected I should ice it Nhot down iihortly, but I w«>nt on from Combe Wood V'arrun ' Morton, that in three miles, and there I found thitni iilioot- ing the gruvi'l down I the xide of the roud. I had to come back, and 1 thought 1 would inquire how they paid for labour, ait we hud men emuloynd in wheeling aravel ; I uiked one of them, " You seem to be heavily laucn, my mun, (two miithcU of gravel in the burrow is a hcuvy loud,) how do you munagu this." " I have three-pence a bunhcl to wheel it three miles ; I take two bushels at a time, that makes six-pcncc." Then they could go twice -i-duy, if they would lot them; but the single men they would not permit to go twice u-day, they went twice one day, and once the other ; the married men went twice. I thought it the tightest (it uf labour I ever saw, to wheel two bushels of gravel that distance ; our men do not wheel one. Mr. Jamil HumewooH. i 8 Mr. Jiime.1 Homeuvod, called in ; and Examined. 1653. WIIERK do you reside r— At Headcorn, near Maidstone, in Kent. 16.54. Have vou any knowledge of paupers from that parish having been sent out to v\mcrica ? — Yes. \6!i!). Have you a statement of the number of persons who have been sent? — I have ; I took it out of the parish book yesterday. 1656. It appears by this paper, that eighty persons were sent from your pariiih ? —Yea. 1657. Did you give those persons money to take them to the ship?— M'' agreed on a sum which wc supported it would cost them, and that they would have a trifle of money in their pockets when they arrived in America. 1658. Do you find any disposition on the part of the people to emigrate? — Yes, we have several men who wi.sli to go now. 1650. Have you hud an opportunity of hearing from those people who have arrived? — Yes, they have all done well; none of them wish to come back. 1660. You applied those sums from the parish rates? — Yes; u part of the money we have borrowed ; we owe now about a hundred and seventy pounds out of that sum ; but we have called a vcsiry, and taken the general opinion of the parish; if there is only one objection we cannot do it, but we have never met with an objection ; those persons wlio now wish to go, we have objections against, and therefore we cannot send them. 1661. What is the total number you have sent? — Eighty, I think. 1662. Have you found an advantage in the reduction of your rates?— Yes, it appears by that paper I have given in, but notsoinuchas I expected it should. 1 663. Were those persons all paupers chargeable upon the parish ? — 'ITiey were, all of them. 1 664. What is the effect produced upon your parish rates by their removal ? — In the year 1823, we raised 2,308/. lu. 3d.; in the yenr following, 1824, we raised 2,025/.; in the year 1825, we raised 1,925/. 6s. id.; and the present year is 1,919/. i6<. 1665. Have you every year been incurring an expense in the conveyance of persons to Canada?— Yes, we owe now 170/. all tlie re.tt has been paid ; we took down what those people had cost us for some time back, a year back, and we con- cluded we would borrow the money and pay oif the sum which they had cost as, calcnlating that there was no reason to think but that they would cost us as much if we kept them at home. * 1666. At wbat did you estimate the payments to those people? — Sometimes they cost a great deal of money, sometimes they cost us a little less ; one of those Eersons, Edward Chambers, cost us sixteen shillings a week for some time before e went. The criterion to judge of the expense would be, to take the cases of Chambers and Morgan and the others, who had not any thing of their own ; they were sent entirely at the parish expense ; several others haa friends who assisted them, and gave them part of the money. 1 667. Though you have been incurring annually an expense for the conveying emigrants to Canada, your rates have notwithstanding been decreased.' — They have been. 1668. What was the amount of expenditure on those individuals who were sent oQt wholly at the expense of the parish? — 179/. 16%. What :e ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: .837 14, f ach of 01) from 11 slioot- tliou^ht m, (two ..■• "I a iitav, )t tlicm ; nrc one s tightest niuu do ent. been sent I sent? — ir pariiili ? ould Imve te: -Yen, who have irt of the toumU out lion of the r met with ainst, and 68 r —Yes, t Hhould. hey were, smoval ? — 1824, we hesent year feyance of we took Ld we coD- kd cost as, taoB much smetimcs ke of those lime before lie cases of )wn; they tio assisted Iconveymg Id? -They Iwho were l6(i(). What wai the avrrnKc nxjieimr prr lioiid, or prr funily -—All the rxpenin wan tniien in one Ninn ; tliny ull went to^iHlit-i' , tliey wont to Liverpool ; we sent a waKRon down witli (ln'in, Kijt). Mow niiiny pcrsoni were sent out for tlmt 1 70 /, ? -Twonty-three. . 1671. When w»T« tlu>y sent out i' -In March l«a4. it)7J. Wlint proportion of men nnd women and <'liildren wer<' there out of those twenty-three |>critoni r — Six men, three women, and fourteen tliildren. it)7.j. TlioKu three and twenty person* were dent wholly iit the expense of the pari.ih,und for iin outlay of money not umountinir to 8/. per hen i } — They were sent for tliiin sum ; I have not caieulatcd the amount per head. l()74. Do you know to what part of America they went?--! believe they are all in the Slate of New York. One family, Cham';ern, had i^one up to near Lake Erie ; of the youn^f men, one is in New York and another in a distant part of the country. irt7';. Were they ai^ricultural labourers ?— They were all agricultural labourers. 1(176. Did you nut the money into their own hands ? — No, our overseer went down to Liverpool, and paid the money into the hands of the captain after they had agreed for the passage ; they imd some money, to bear their expenses to Liverpool. 1777. Is the expense to Liverpool included in the sum of 1 "<)/■? — Yes. 1(178. Do you ttiinkthatithas, or not, answered to your parish?— Our assessment has not been so low as I experted it would, in conseciuence ; we have more men now than we can cmnloy, and we can afl'ord to pay our nu-n better than if we had a ip'eater number. 1 consider myself that upon the whole the parish is benehted, but not to the extent that 1 expected it would. l()7y. The subsequent emip;rtttions were at a less expense per head? — Yes, because they had some assistance from other persons. l()8o. Do you think that the parish was so far benefited by the removal of those persons, that it would even have been benefited if the money required for their passay;e had been nearly doubled ? — I think the parish would gain by it. I (is I. You think it would have answered to the parish to lay out sixteen pounds a-hend rather than keep them at honie?— Yes, I think so, for now we can find more labour for the men who remain ; and keeping; them in idir i<'ss is the destruc- tion of the men, it is the very worst thinff for them.selves and tor the parish too. I88. You think that you could employ all the rest in profitable labour, if you got rid of forty ? — Yes, m the dead of winter ; there always have been some who have been receiving something, but not to any great amount. 1O89. Do you know what was the expense of the conveyance of those persons whom you sent to Liverpool ? — I took them down myself, in my waggon ; the parish paid me 30/. for their conveyance. 1690. Can you state the expense per head for their conveyance to America? — I cannot, without reference to papers at home, but I will furnish that information. 1691. Was 30/. the whole expense for their conveyance to Liverpool? — Yes. 1692. It appears from the paper before the Committee, that you have conveyed eighty ; you have stated the expense of twenty-three ; from whence did the others go ? — They were sent from London. i.37. T 1693. What Mr hmei UnmruMui, to Msrch, ili7. 1, 146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. 1693- What became of the houses in which those people lived? — Some of them Jmtt Hontmood. f^f^ empty now. "^ -^ i6(}4. Are none of them pulled down ?— No; those which arc let, arc let at only ao March, |,j,if {|,g ,.(,nt they used to pet for them. "'• K'DS- Are tney oci-unied by parishioners? — Yes ; we do not let any ether per- sons come, if wc can help it. 1 6y(5. T!;ofe will be no new settlements obtained in consequence of their leaving? — I hope not. [H : Mr. Samud Maine, called in ; and Examined. Mr. ' 607. 1 N what part of the country do you reside ? — At Hanworth, in the county Samutl Maine, of Middlesex. 1 60 i. 3Iow far is that from Lon-^on ? — Twelve miles from Hyde Park Corner. 161)9. Are you overseer of that parish? — I am. 1700. Are there a great number of unemployed poor in that parish? — Yes, theie are. 17 )i. Supposing a man and woman and three children to be wholly out of empioyment the whole year, at what should you estimate the expense to the parish ? — I should think from ten to twelve shillings a week. 170a. In point of fact those persons tost 2,';/. a year to the parish? — -Yes, sup- posing them to be out of employ the whole year. 1703. Arc you not of opinion that if a certain number of families were taken away who were unemployed the whole vjjar, that would have a very material rifect in relieving the poors rates?— Yes, 1 think it would produce a great relief to the parish. 1704. Have you u great many who are at all times on tlie narish rates, except du'ing the harvest montlis ? — Yes, a great many who are employed on the roads, wKvje they earn very little. 1 71 •3. You have stated, tiiat a family consisting of a man, a woman and three childieu, would cust J5/. a year; suppose the man to be able-bodied, and the family hetxitliy, do you think the parish would consent to mortgage their rates for ten years, from eight to ten pounds a year, provided an Act were passed relieving them from all further claims iVom those persons ? — Speaking from myself, I should consent to it ; but I cannot state the opinion of the parish. 1 706. Have you any doubt that when the parish were informed that the saving would be 15/. a year, that would induce the generality of the parish to come into that proposition ? — That would divide itself in tliis way ; some of the occupiers of land, who have leases which will not exist more than five years, would oppose it ; while those who have to stay in the pari.sh for twenty years would approve of it. 1707. If a man has a L.ilion f — 1 think so. 1714^ Has mif-fi-'^ BE of them t at only ther per- Icaving? lie county : Corner. jh?-Yes, lly out of he parish ? -Yes, sup- were taken ry material rreat relief tes, except the roads, and three :d, and the ;ir rates for ul relieving tlf, I should t the saving come into e occupiers uld oppose Id approve of paying change ? — |h, effectual ttlement sin miglit leave 1 allow it, if khis parish ? ; in case of ^ave a house Ifinding him Vtances. lepcndence, lid be ready I would feel ^rs who are I do. Assent to the 1714. Has ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 147 1714. Has yoUr pauper population iticrcaccd lately?— Yes, we have had it increased very much, by their being sent home from other parishes. 1715. When a man becomes permanently on your parish, with his family, after h« has been there a year or two, is there a probability of his again getting employ- ment, and getting otlthe rates? — I have not found it so; according to the expe- rience 1 have in the parish, there is not one in a hundred who gets off again. 1716. Their families increase? — Yes. 1717. And there is a prospect of their children remaining on the parish ? — Yes ; they get married, and the first time the wife is put to bed, they become burthensome to us. 1718. You think their state of distress does not prevent their increasing ? — No. 1719. On the other hand, they are interested in having a family, because you allow them according to their famijies? — Yes ; I allow some families 15^. a week, and they can do very little with that; they have their house-rent paid for them besides. 1720. Have you a select vestry iu your parish?— A public vestry. 17'21. What is the size of your parish? — The whole population is 600, and the pari.sh contains about thirteen hundred acres of land. 1722. What is the size of your poor-house ? — We have 00 poor-house ; we have built five cqttages lately. 1 723. What do you think would be the probable expense of building a work- house in your parish, to contain all your pauper poor? — I should think it would take us 1 ,<)Oo/. 1 724. At what would you estimate the expense of each man, woman and child in the parish, when you gQt them there? — ^1 think it would not be possible to support them so cheaply as we do at present. 1725. Have not ail the farmers in your parish as many hands as they can employ ? — Yes, a great many more than can be employed ; there are a great many paupers that want employment, I should think eight months out of twelve. 1726. Do you think that of those people who are not employed, from not being able to find employment, if they were to be put into a poor-house, any valuable result would follow from that ? — I think not. 1227. Have not you more able-bodied paupers in your parish than you can find employment for ? — Certainly we have. 1728. (To Mr, Taylor.) Are there not many able-bodied paupers in the parish of Feltham, for whom you can find no employment r — Yes, ten months out of twelve. 1729. (To Afr. Lacoxte.) Arc there not many able-bodied paupers in the parish of Chcrtsey, for whom you can find no employment? — Yes, we have many more able-bodied labourers than we can find employment for. 1730. (To Mr. Maine. J Supposing a system were adopted, under o mand has not revived. It is inherent in the nature of trade and manufactures, that at certain periods > there will occur seasons of stagnation and distress, whereby a great many operativ -s are thrown out of employment ; but such seasons of ad- versity do not necessarily, in Scotland, entail upon the landholders any very severe burden, unless the distress be of lonjj^ continuance, and the numbers thrown out 30 extremely large as to threaten epidemic disease or disturbance, in which case all minor considerations will give way. I do not believe it is anticipated at present tht>t ?uch an occurrence will soon take place again, although there are caused operating which may depress the wages of manufacturing labour very low ; ap J if any steps oould be taken to prevent the influx of poor Irish, it is believed by many that there would be no permanent redundancy in 4he labour market of Scotland. ■ • 17.55- Supposing that measures wer« to be taken generally, which would practically produce a less influx of native Irish into Scotland, such measures l)eing concurrent with any charge to be sustained by the country eventually for the purposes of emigration, are you not r>( opinion that the knowledge of that fact would tend to reconcile the inhabitaiits of that country to any permanent charge imposed upon them, for the purpose of getting rid of that population r— I should think it very diflicult to reconcile the county of Renfrew, or any county in Scotland, to a permanent charge of that kind ; as a general measure, tlj|e county of Renfrew might possibly concur, bat only concur with other counties in Scotland, in paying a sum for the being insured against a recurrence of similar distresses as connected with a redundant manufacturing population, and with a corresponding burden upon the poor funds. But the stronger probability is, that the landholders would generally prefer to take the risk of a distant contingency, than to incur a certain pecuniary obligation of the description referred to. 1 7,56. You have stated, that for the last year the expense for charity in the county of Renfrew far exceeded the sum of 5,000 /. ; and from all the evidence this Committee has received, an uniform opinion has been stated, that in con- sequence of the power-loom having superseded the hand loom, there is no chance whatever of a demand for the labour of the weavers in the neighbourhood of Glasgow and Paisley increasing, so as to improve their present condition: — In the first place I would remark, that I do not consider power-looms to have been in any very considerable degree the cause of our late distresses ; I believe that the previous speculative excess of manufactures in general, and the consequent glut in all the markets, have been tho principal causes. In the county of Renfrew in particular, the prevailing manufactures are figured goods of silk and of cotton, upon which a deal of expensive work is bestowed, and which the power-looms cannot produce. I am quite aware that power-looms have a very considerable and an increa.sing effect in superseding hand looms in every manufacturing district, though perhaps less in Renfrewshire than elsewhere. And prospectively ■peaking, I believe that the operation of power-looms, joined to the increased production of foreign manufactures, may have a powerful and permanent influ^ce in diminishing the demand for hand-loom weavers. 1757. If you do not attribute much of the distress to the power-looms, what do you consider to be the reason why the weavers arc in so much a worse situation than the spinners ? — It may be a little diflicult for one who is not a manufacturer to give a satisfactory answer, but I believe a cotton spinner could easily do so. The cotton spinning is a peculiai' trade, and the wages in it have been always high: and one reason, at least, why they are high is, that the employment is considered unhealthy, and the work hburs are long. Foreigners, to enable them- selves to weave cotton fabrics, were obliged to purchase the yarn from our spinners, and hence the latter might be in full employment, while the weavers were not. But notwithstanding these reasons, and the facilities they have (or combination and mutual support, I have been often surprised how the wages of cotton spinners could have been so very high, when other operatives, who deserved at least as well, were starving ; hut such has been the fact. 1 758. In point of fact, though you do not concur as to the precise effect produced by the power-looms, stated by other witnesses, you do concur in thinking that there are causes not less operative, which make it improbable that the present redundant manufacturing popiilation can fairly he absorbed by the demtiids of • the capitalists, to as to place them in a materially improved condition ? — I agree • in '^^«^ lise effect J thinking |e present DMids of -1 agree. in ON EMIGRAirON FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. »53 in that proposition, keeping in view, however, tliat at present the employment is pretty general, though the wages are low. 1759. Are you of opinion that, allowing ample time for the subjert to be under- stood, if 5,00a persons were removed from the county of Renfrew, and, if measures were talcen of a similar nature, from other parts of the United Kingdom where population may be in excess, there would be any indisposition on the part of the proprietors in the county of Renfrew to establish a county rate to the extent of a thousand pounds per annum foi^ 60 years, for the purpose of getting rid of those .■itGOO persons ; under which county rate it is to be presumed, and must be con- sidered as part of the question, that they will be relieved from the claim upon their charity which you have described to have actually taken place tu the extent of 5,000/. in the cours* of the last year? — The claim alluded to, being a claim upon charity, will be considered as having been discharged for a time -, and if the pro- {losed county rate is supposed to apply solely to the landholder, I do certainly ieel no hesitation in assuring the Committee, that the very strongest objections will be felt to any such assessment. 1 760. Would any rate that would bear upon property other than land, combined with the rate upon the land producing the same amount, be more likely to be acceded to? — It would certainly be more acceptable to the landholders, if there i;hould be n county rate, that part of it should apply to those who are considered by them as the means of bringing into the county, when trade is flourishing, a large number of peop'o, who, when a reverse comes, are thrown upon the poor's rates, or become supplicants for spontaneous relief. The landholders will naturally contend, that a full proportion should be borne by those who receive most advan- tage from, the surplus labourers. 1761. Supposing that the manufacturing capitalists, and the owners of houses, were to refuse to consent to any such arrangement for such an object, you are of opinion that under all the given circumstances of society in the county of Renfrew the landholders would think that their own interests in a pecuniary point of view would be more consulted by the presence and continuance of this redundant population, than by getting rid of it tor the charge of a thousand pounds per annum for 60 years as proposed ; always presupposing that they are satisfied that that charge would effectually rid them of that population for the future? — I certainly do think that their objection would remain unimpaired, unlcs* it were at such a time as we have just witnessed. The number of Irish amongst us, wiio may be regarded as constituting the mass of our surplus workers, would not by the agricul- turists be reckoned as a very great evil ; for it is a fact, that if an extensive drain, or canal, or road, or any other thing, were to make, that could be done by piece- work (for the ordinary farm labour of the county is performed by ScoU servants engaged by the half year,) I should not feel in the least surprised to find, that of a hundred men employed at it, ninety were Irish ; and indeed the Irish are con- sidered to work at least as well, and certainly work a great deal cheaper than Scotsmen ; they can live cheaper, and several things which a Scotchman or an Englishman feels to be indispensable to his comfort, an Irishman can do very well without. As for the manufacturing interest, of course the cheaper the market for labour, the better. 1 762. Your answer is confined, is it not, to tlie feelings of the landholders ; what is the feeling of the natives of that part of Scotland with which you are con- nected, with respect to the Irish? — I have no doubt there is a considerable degree of jealousy entertained,, because they find their wages lowered by the influx of strangers ; they find themselves driven out of a considerable range of employment 1 763. Do you consider that to be an unreasonable jealousy un the part of the labourers ? — I do not think it is unreasonable. 1 764. If it be reasonable, can it be consistent with the interest of the landholders, that the native population should be driven out of the country, and that all the other evils obvious from such a state of things should fall upon them? — I think that the landholders have reason upon the whole to regret that the influx of strangers is quite so great. In ordinary times -it is all well, but when such a stag- nation of manufacturing employment takes place as took place last year, the enor- mous number who may be thrown on parish support would bear very hard upon the landholders, when it is considered that it has lately been declared by the supreme court of Scotland as the law of the land, that an Irishman has all the privileges of a native in acquiiirig a legal parish settlement, entitling him to claim J37- U . as ■4 March, 18*7. 154 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE t4 March, (. ii m as matter of right to be maintained out of the poors funds, by three years industrial residence. 1765. The Committee arc, t\ en, to understand you to say, that notwithst tnding the claims which you state an Irish pauper labourer has upon jarochial assistance as well as the Scotch native labourers, notwithstanding the fact that the pr )prie- tors of the county of Renfrew have contributed in the course of the ms" year 5,000/. for the purposes of charity, and notwithstanding that relief has been poured into the county of Renfrew by charitable subscriptions to a very great extent from other quarters, yet the landed interest on the one hand and the manufacturing interest on the other of tlint country, consider the advantage to be derived from cheaper labour so great, that they would rather be saddled with this excess of population than undergo an expense, admitted to be small compared with the charity alone, to get rid of the permanent ellect of it ? — I do not attribute to these parties that precise reasoning which the question includes. J am not sure if the lemedy would be deemed permanently cttitient, and probably the recurrence, of the disasters recei.tly experienced may not bo experienced in oay such teiriKo extent ; but I ihink that on general grounds the Scottish landowners would be disposed to object to any thing that bears the appearance of a permaucRt poor's rate for able-bodied men, under any circumstances; 1766. When the Committee speak of a permanent rate of a thousand pounds a year for 60 years, tliey are speaking of a sum of 20,000/. at the present moment, un'^er the idea that it vodld lie more convenient to the county to produce in tlmt way a definite object, than to saddle themselves with suc'< au expense at once or at a short period ; but all these questions are utt^.ly im levant if it were to be under- stood that th county of Renfrew was unprepared to saddle itself with an annual expense of a thousand poii.ids, but tluit it would be prepared to raise :io,ooo/. at the present moment 1 — If it be assumed that there is again to recur a necessary expenditure (and by the county) of 20,000 /. in one year, ihcn certainly the land- holders might consider it as not an unfit commutation to sub' it to a corresponding annual assessment ; but I Itumbly apprehend that is not t!ie i.^ht ir. which the land- holders would be disposed to view the question. If we iiad not got the chief part of our large expenditure from national contribution through the medium of the London Committee, God knows what v. /uld have become of us. I conceive if Buch distress should ever occur ag-ain, that thu landholders of Renfrew might con- sider it not as a local but as a national matter requiring the attention of govern- ment. Taking into view the demands of private charity which have entered into no account, the landholders of Renfrewstare v ould certainly have deemed it an intolerable burden to be bound to raise for the support of the indigent any thing like 20,00 '. even ailed by the contributirus of the master manufactjirers and other inhabitants. It must be taken into 'icv, that while the operatives have been so .severely depressed by low wages and want of demand for work, the master manufacturers themselves have not escaped. 1 hiwe been credibly informed of one case of bankruptcy in Renfrewshire, in which the bankrupt's estate was found to have claims against between fifty and sixty other recently bankrupt estates ; a sufficient proof of the distress that Ijas affected the manufacturing interest in that part of the country. 1767. You have ouserved, that the gentlemen of the county of Renfrew would consider this a.« a national object rather than a local one, but the gentlemen of the county of Renfrew, imder the assumed circumstance:', would be called upon to furnish only one-third of the expense necessary io accomplish this object ; 60,000/. would accomplisli the emigration of j.ooo pcrfons ; therefore the pro- position is, that if the county of Renfrew either advanced 20,000/. at once, or, preferring to spread the expense over tt greater number of yeurs, on the prwoiple that posterity should share the burthen which should produce an advantage t'> tbem, would raise the 20,000 /. on a long an.^uity of sixty years ; in nomt of fact the case would stand thus, that for the purpose of removing 5,000 persons, under the removal of which, by the terms of the proposition, the county is to be released from all claim upon its charity, and all redundancy of population, the State would furnish the meats of adding 40,000/. to the 20,000/. w proposed to b« raised from the county? — It may seem a reprot.ch upon the county of Renfrew for me to say, but I do really feel it necessary to say, in answer to the queation, that I do not believe th<^ county of Renfrew would willingly submit to any county rate of that description, that they could possibly resist. Sc^'ug aside all con- sideration respecting the source of the evil, and the permanency of the cure, the * Committee ew would emen of ed upon object ; the prc- once, or, pni'<'iple antagc t'^ ^olnt of persons, y is to be ition, the oposed to f Renfrew que.)tion, y county all con- cure, the oinmittee ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. >55 Committee will remember that, in common with i.*her Scottish counties, we are very little acquainted with such poors rates as prevail in England ; and with regard to tliu county of Renfrew, though very considerable as a commercial and manu> facturing county, it is but of small extent. The rent-roll of the landholders is by no means in proportion to its commercial or manufacturing importance. A cot-nty rate of i,uou/. a year is greater than the whole land tax that the county of Ren- frew pays. 1768. Are the Committee to understand that the same obaervation would apply, if the expense was ,500/. a year instead of a thousand ? — I really believe so, as the objection would he founded upon principle as well as upon mere pecuniary amount. 1769. If the rate were fixed on real property only, the landholder would oDjuct; if the rate were charged on real and personal property, the landholders and the capitalists would join in the objection? — Yes. 1770. You are not enabled to hold out to the Committeee any hope that the couhty of Renfrew, from a sense of its own interest, would concur in any contri- bution to the |)romotion of this object i — I am not; at least to any amount which the Committee would think at all material for the object in view. 1771. Do you concur in this observation, it is stated in a letter before the Committee, " VVitbout some change or modification of the law of parish residence, I do not see that any effectual ericourngcment can be given to emigration : In the spring of 18*20, we .sent out a number of well-doing poople to Canada, but their liouses were filled with Irish, who, as two or three families are satisfied to ac- commodate themselves with a house which only held a single family before of the old population, and as the Irish women are possessed of greater fecundity than the Scotch, p oducing generally about one-fourth more children than the latter, that is, tlir'c. fannlies counting six heads in place of five, we arc infinitely worse off than ever : the Scotch operatives and labourers are taking the inroads made upon them by those people much to heart, and the Emigrant Societies look to the Irish as the cause of their not getting away to America, by their preventing the gentry from lielping to pay for the expense of the emigrants, under the impression that the Irish will fill up the places of those whom they would otherwise assist to go to the British colonics:" do jou concur in that reasoui.'g? — I concur generally in that reasoning. It must immediately strike any man, upon whose property such a tax is proposed to be laid, to ask of what avail is that tax to be ; is the recur- rence of the emigration from Ireland, or other causes of distress, to be prevented. Unless sonic oifectual preventative be given, there must be the greatest possible reluctance upon the part of the landiioldcrs of Scotland to incumber their estates with an annual or other payment for the purpose of emigration. 1772. Do you believe that a body of Scotch gentlemen, whether landholders or manufacturers, would consent to charge themselves with a fixed certain burthen, upon the speculative hope that the cause of the present charge will not recur ? — I do not. 1773. Are you a'.varp that in the evidence received by this Committee from English parishes, an entirely contrary opinion has been given ; that the English parishes, without a single exception (the proprietors in which, or the overseers of which, have b^ien examined before the Committee) have expressed a readiness not only to charge their parishes to the extent of 20/. but of 60/. for every poor family emigrated? — I have been informed of that, and I think that they are making a reasonable bargain ; but 1 think the situation of Scotland is very different, and that difference cannot be explained without adverting to the state of ibe poor laws. f-7^. You stated i" the early part of your evidence, that it wov^'d be a great beueLi if those 5,000 persons could be removed ; supposing that retioval to take place, and assuming that the county of Renfrew had agreed to ip'.or the propo.<7. i.-jC MINUTES OF EVIDENCE IJEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE j.CumpttH, 1776. In there not all the difference b ■> IhWs, and a country in which that nyHtetn has a very mitigated and partial ope- 94 Mtreb, ration ? — ('crtainly there is an immense difference between the state of the two *''?• countries in that respect. 1777. And that which might reasonably be considered by the one country as a great relief, might be ciitnidered by the other us a precedent fur the imposition of ne-.. and grievous burthens? — Certainly it might prove a great relief to England, but a very dangerous precedent in Scotland, at Ifnt it would be universally so esteemed. 1778. Cnn you state shortly to the Committee what the Scotch law of settle- ment is, and how it applies in the ruse of »! • Irish ? — The Scotch law of settlement ia extremely simple; by that law any man .vlio has his residence for three years in any Scottish parish, will lliereby acijiiire a leiral settlement, unless he or some of hit family have had recourse to begging for their support, or have been wholly or partially supported by charily during the course of those three years. 1 779. If, then, a labourer from Ireland, or any other part of the King's dominions, and not only so, but from any foreign country, were to come and establish himself in a parish in Scotland, and live there for three years without being known to be a beggar, and without receiving any relief from the church money, or any other of the usual sources, he would be entitled to come upon that parish just as much as a native of that parish or of any part of Scotland ? — According to a late decision of the supreme civil court of Scullatid, that is declared to be the law ; the point was tried in aca.so decided in iH'J4, at the suit of one Higgiiis, an Irish- man, against the barony parish of Glasgow. The case, as stated in the printed reports ofthedecisionsoftne Court of Session, is this : The barony parish ofCJiasgow is one of the most populous in Scotland, and one o** those in wnich an assessment for the poor has long prevailed. The managers resolved to admit no Irishmen upon the poor's roll, and tliat resolution was made the subject of complaint to the Court of Session in the name of Iliggins, who had resided there for a good many years. The judgment of the court was to this effect; first, that the Court of Session have a controlling power in such eases ; and in the uccond place, that the plaintiff in that case, from iiaving had an industrial residence for more than three years in the parish, had aciiuircd u legal settlement against the poors rates, just as if he had been a native Scotchman. And indeed the principle oftheji'JgniPiit was expressly held to apply to foreigners in general. 1780. Was that case appealed to the llouie of Lords?— It was not. 1781. And it stands now as the declared law (if Scotland ? — It does. 1783. What nieons are afforded by the law of Scotland of transfcrance, or, as it it called, of traiis|>ortation of poor from one parish to another within Scotland, from a parish where they may have acquired a settlement, to the parish of their birth? — There is only one regulation in Scotland respecting removals, and it applies only to vagrants ; it has no application to the ordinary poor, and indeed no practical operation at all. No person can, withopt his own consent, lie lefiinviid from one parish to imother in Scotland, unless he be a vagrant beggar. 1783. Supposing a person, a native of Scotland, residing in a parish in which he was a stranger, to be in the habit of receiving charity there from the parish, although not in the shape of asses.sment money, is it in the power of the parish to remove him to his own parish? — It is not in the power of the parish to do so, legally. 1784. Are there any means, however over-burthened the parish may be with Irish paupers, of removing them to Ireland ?~No legal compulsory means ; and in our vei r limited law of removal (which is utterly useles^L' in practice) tlie idea of :'»moval presupposes some other place bound to receive and support the person rtmoveu , removal to Ireland, therefore, ought to imply that there are poors funds in that country, or at least some means by which those removed can be provided for, and prevented from returning. 1785. A magistrate c«t»npt order them out of the parish? — He canno . 1786. It has beiu staled in the evidence of Mr. Campbell, the Member for Renfrew, that during the last year a number of Irish were sent from that part of the country with merely a loaf, and a few shillings in their pockets; by what authority were those persons removed? — That was done, not by legal, but by moral compulsion, if it was by compulsion at all. The Irish are probably either ignorant of their legal claims, or distrustful of having these acknowledged ; and / many '"'JBamaEiia: s e m.tJ iifcaartM •• ji.''^^l±^*'^y^ ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. >57 many have no |p|{nl cinim, bcrauiie tlipy have gained no legal Jtcttlement. They were very glad to have the mean* of ruiiiuval from a country where they could gft no employment. 1787. Aa long an the law and cireuniHtanceii of Scotland remain what they are with respe'jt to the iinpoRHihility of preventing the influx and Ncttlement of the numerouN bandn of Irish that come there, do you conceive that uny cniignition, however denirahle on other accounts, and however desirable an a means of tem- porary relief, would afford any permanent relief to that country i — I do not believe that it would afford any permanent relief. A temporary relief I certainly think it would afford, for it is not in one month, nor perhaps in one ytur, iliut the vacuum could be filled up by persons uble to do the work of those who bad gone away ; but I have not the least doubt, tbut the moment the labour market is drained to w certain extent, and the wages of those rtintiiniiig, raised, every weaver, instead of endeavouring to send his sons and daughters to some other employment, wilt avail himself of their labour in his own trade; and as the business of aconiirum weaver is not very difficult to learn, there arises in the course of two years a new genera- tion 01 weavers ; and from the same cause, those Irish who happen to be weavera of cotton or linen gojds in Ireland, and who may hope for better wages in Scot- land, would have the strongest temptation to come over. I understand tlnit a linen weaver would not find any great difficulty to overcome in learning to weave cotton goods. 1788. Do you conceive it would be in the power of the landed proprietors to cheek the coming in of the Irish labourers, by refusing to allow them to have resi- dences and cottages, were they so minded ? — That is a subject which I feel to be one'of extreme rJiffirulty. There are certainly, however, some expedients which may be adopted without difficulty or without any violation of any established or fair principle. Let it bo enacted that a longer period of years i>> recpiisite for an Irishman or a foreigner to acquire a legal settlement than for a native ; and perhaps in addition to the extension of the period, there might be a qualification adtled, that the residence should have been in the capacity of houstholderx ; because when fatnilies of poor Irish come over, it is a long time before they get a house ; they ciowd great numbers together into lodgings, usually paying the rent by the week or fortnight ; to Scotsmen, whether landowners or not, (for we all pay poor rates in assessed parishes) it will appear very hard that being a lodger in sucli circum- stances, in a st.'te bordering on beggary, should suffice to confer a full legal settlement. I7S(). How do those poor Irish who come over, contrive to nourish themselves at first ?^They have generally some friends or relations, who perhaps invite them to come oter. I7()0. What food do they eat chiefly? — Potatoes, of course, and other cheap food ; it is surprising how little they can do with. I am (|uite certain, from what I have seen with my own eyes, that some of them can do without any thing which dnservps the name of fiir'iiture or bed-clothes, and I suppose the cheapest food will suffice them. 1791. When they are in full emj'loyment, do they live more like the people of the country, or 'nk that that provision, coupled with the provision that he should be a householder, would afford a material relief? -1 think it would operate as a check, and more especially if some precautionary measure could be devised to prevent suspicious persons from gaining a settlement by residence, such as warning them to remove. I7q4. What is the law of Scotland with respect to affording parochial relief in circumstances where work cannot be found, setting aside the cases oi the aged, the 337. U J diseased A. Cmftbett, K4,. ■4 March, ili«7. 1.58 MINUTES OF EVIDENCK BRFOHK SELECT COMMITTEE W. Cimphtll, ■4 Mircb, ll.7. diiCK!iP(i, thr Itlind, niul iiu on, tliv (|iiF*tion hciiiK <^'"(>tinu(i to lurh cniieii ttn sriu whun work cannot Ihi ohtuincd r 1 prcKUint' tliu Contuiiltcu U iiwurr how vt- tremely similiir tlio rarly Scottish rniu-tnirnt^ iijion tliut oiil)jr>rt iiro to tliii enrly Enffliiih, anil how very difl't^rrnt tlivir pructital o|i(>riition him horn. Our li^ndin^ ■tntutc wiw piiMHi'd in thr year i.'iyi). and it coiiliiicd imrinh roli«>t' to pcrMinH de- ■cribe«l as " ajji-d, poor, impoU-nt and (h'cayrd pcritonft, who ot'nrccMity niunt live by alniH ;" and in tlu- practirc of Scotland, parinh relief hat hitherto hoen confined to that denrription of pcr.ionii, and I Indiovc it wax never heard of until thu bt;- tfinnins of the prcHont century, when an universal strnrcity of provinionn prevailed in Scotiond, when in one of the Nouthern riirinhci an aNseHiiment won imponed partly at lca.c8sment was valid. Fiut I believe thin haft never been regarded an a sufficient prectdent to settle the geiu-ral (piestion; and among other reasons for this opinion, the c'uini was not at the instance of a person assert- ing his right to aid from the poors rate, but a (lurstion between one inhabitant of the parish, and the managers for the poor who nad assessed him. A more recent and important case arose out of the coinnu-rcial and manid'acturing distressef of l8i(), in the Abbey parish of Paisley, in which upwards of eight hundred able- bodied workmen (such as the persons who are now petitioning to bo carritid to Canada) applied for subsistence from the parish rates ; and the managers for the poor having refused to give that relief, us being a precedent of extreme danger, the claimants presented an application to the sheriff of the county, for the purpo.ic of having the claim made cncctual. The sheriil' decided that they had a legal claim ; and the question being appealed to the supreme court, I have reason to know that it was deemed of great importance to prevent that question from beiug tried upon its merits, and to oppose it upon u preliminary objection in point of form, namely, the competency of the sheriff's court to review or control the reso- lutions of the managers for the poor. The r«'sult was, that the Court of Session decided that althougli the Scottish Aits of Parliament, in various in.stances con- nected with the poor laws, imposed a superintending «luty upon the sherifls, the sheriff had no such control as hud been assumed ; so that the case was dismissed, and the (piestion never was tried upon its merits. The circumstances of the manu- facturing districts changed, and the funds of the claimants being exhausted, the case went no further. 1 79.'). Then the apprehension that weighed upon one of the parties in that case, was, that if it came to be tried fairly on its merits before the Court of Session, that court would probably act as it had done in thcca.se of Pollock against Darling? — I believe it was ; and I may add, that if the principle involved in that cose were once established by an authoritative precedent, as applicable to the maintenance, total or partial, of oble-bodied workmen demanding it as a legal right, then it seems to me beyond all question that Scotland will be placed under the same tremendous burtlien which England bears and has been struggling in vain to alleviate. 1796. Do you conceive that in deciding the case of Pollock ugain.st Darling, the Court of Session meant to confine itself to laying down the law incases of general distress in the country, so that employment could not be found by the applicants, or that it only included cases of temporary and local distress?—! really do not feel myself very competent to answer, as to the reasons which influenced the case of Pollock against Darling, my knowledge of that ease being derived from the printed report, which I have not recently peru.sed ; hut mv understandiiig is, that the main question did not come directly and fully before the court. 1 797. Do you conceive that the ettect of that decision in the case of Pollock against Darling was to go as far as a decision could go to establish this prin- ciple, that the incapacity of finding em]>loyment entitled a man to be put upon the poors roll in Scotland? — If it could be considered a sufhcient precedent, it certainly does involve that principle ; but it do( s not go to say directly that the able-bodied poor man ha3 a legal claim against the parish, it only goes to tlii.s, which is a different thing, thiu if the manars for the rie dantfer, he purpose nd II legal reason to from beiuj; u point of )1 tue reso- nf Session itiices con- iheritfs, tlic dismissed, the numu- austed, the 1 thut cnsf , ^Msion, that darling ? — case were utenaiicv, it, then it the same in vain to urling, the of general iipplicant8, illy do not id the case 1 from tilt! ii.g is, that of Pollock this prin' put upon ecedent, it ly that the DCS to thin, y, the Kirk ntary trust g parishes) slull ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1897. 1J9 ■hall voluntarily admit iiuch claims, a puriihioner who ia amiesaed will not be parniitted to object. 1798. In the case of Pollock against Darling were not all the fifteen judgen ^ preufnt, and the decision carried by a majority of one? — I am not able at preMot to nntwer that (|nestion. 1790. You have stated, that if the step were once taken, of admitting able- bodied men as possessing a good claim on the pours rates of Scotland, the con- dition of Srotliind would be quite us bud as that of England I — Nearly us bail. 1 800. Would it not be even worse, inasmuch as personal property is rateable to ■ the poor in Scotland us well as rcul property?—! am not aware that that makes it worse. iKoi. Is not a person residing in a parish in Scotland, where a rate exists, liable to contribute to the rate in consideration of his personal property wherever situate, us well as his real |)r()perty within the parish?— I believe there is at present no doubt at all how the law of Scotland stands in thut respect; and I mav state, for the information of the Committee, that wherever an us.sessment is imposed, (suppose 3,oo(i/.) the law divides it into two equal parts, 1,000/. will be payable exclusively by that body whom in Scotland we are in the habit of calling " heritor.'*," a term not always to be limited to the proprietors of land, for it may happen in some parishes, and it does liuppen in the Abbey parish of Paisley, in which I live, that the proprietors of bouses pay and rank as managers of the poor along with the landholders, whom they greatly out-number, and of course can out-vote ; the other half is assessed on the inhabitants at large, in- cluding those very heritors, according to the estimated ratio of their " means of sub^ance" wherever situated, and not otherwise assessed for poor rates. The Committee will understand that I am describing the mode of assessment in what are called " Landward" parishes in Scotland, as distinguished from burgh parishes, in which last the mode of assessment is somewhat difl'erent. i8o'j. In regard to an early statute, as defining the persons to whom relief may be given, already referreil to, are you not aware that in a subsequent statute in l6()j, there are words to this effect : " The persons unemployed, being musterless, and out of service, und not having wherewith to maiiituin themselves by their own means and work, are entitled to relief"? — I do not recollect particularly the import of that statute ; but the impression upon my mind is, thut the terms referred to are not of general application, but directed to some special und probably tem- porary object. iKoj. Supposing, for the sake of argument, it were admitted that an indiscri- minate poor rate could by law be imposed in Scotland, is it not probable that, under the circuinstHiices of distress and misery among the redundant able-bodied labourers in the county of Renfrew continuing in future years unuided and unas- sisted by that extent of charitable contribution from other parts of the country which combined with the charity of Renfrew, estimated at five thousand pounds, which has supported them for the last year, is it not probable that a legal assess- ment would take place in the county of Renfrew for the maintenance ot the able- bodied poor, in the same manner as in England? — If it be assumed that the law were so declared, I have not the least douot that in such u year as 1 82G the Kirk sessions and heritors would be disposed to relieve the distressed work- people by a general assessment or poor rate ; and if there were no other reason, there is at least this very strong one, that voluntary contributions fall chieHy upon those who are in other respects put to the greatest expense, namely, the charitable, and that many individuals can find very good reasons for keeping their money in their pockets. 1804. Though you have no doubt there would be a disposition on the part of the self-taxing body in Renfrew to impose this assessment, under the supposed circum.stances of continued «listress, they would huv • to exercise a discretion whether they would or not ; and in point of fact, there would be no abstract means, under the law of Scotland, to force them to do it, if tiicy were of opinion that it was inexpedient to give relief to the able-bodied laboiirer ? — I would express my confident opinion, tliat if the power of assessing parishes for the indiscriminate support of all who happened to be in poverty, from fluctuations in employment or otherwise, in Scotland, ic would be not only the interest of the landholders in par- ticular, but of Scotland at large, th^-' 't siiould, so far as regards able-bodied men, be entirely discretionary, and such as vested no legal claims in those objects of it. I have thought io seasoiui. of distress in Ueafre\y8hire,, such as tl)« .years a37- U4 1816 •4 Murch, 18«7. i6o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE A. CampUt, 14 March, 1827. 1816 end 1819, as well as 1826, that it might he desirable to vest the managers of thf: poor with a discretionary power to assess the whole parish for the relief of the general distress ; but I certainly think we ought to be most careful of treating such relief as a matter of legal right in the claimant. The tendency of such a measure., humane as it seems, would soon appear The salutary warning which the coLJse of r'»ture gives, in connecting distress with improvidence and vice, and the utility of saving banks and friendly societies, would be materially counteracted; and tb" effects, especially in a manufacturing district, would be debasement of moral ;eeling, and depreciation of real property. It may not be unimportant to add, that the debasement of which I speak has, in my own experience, made alarming progress, and chiefly from the immoderate appetite which prevails for spiritui us liquors, and the excessive, and in my mind destructive facility with which licenses for retailing spirits can be obtained in Scotland by persons who have no other recommendatio .1 than that which ought rather to exclude them, viz. their poverty and unfitness for other employment. If habits of providence are so peculiarly necessary amidst the fluctuations incident to commercial and manufacturing pursuits, the Committee will judge how far such habits are dis- couraged ; and what a large deduction must come from the wages of labour, when I state, that, as compared with the population, the number of licensed houses will show that every twentieth family in Renfrewshire keeps a public house, and by necessary consequence, that almost every working man is subjected to constant temptation, by hav'ig some relation, some intimate acquaintance, or some next- .door neighbour, ;ho keeps a tippling house. 1805. Admitting, then, for the sake of argument, that inconsequence of some future decision, the law of Scotland, as iuld down in the case of Pollock against Darling, wtre solemnly afF.rmed, that would lead to a state of things in which the redundant poor having a legal claim upon parochial assessments, in the county o** Renfrew for example, the indisposition which you have stated to exist t' tsx the county for the purposes of emigration would then be reduced to a consideration of comparative pecuniary interest, involved between paying this legal rate, which could not be avoided, and contributing towards the expense of emigration ; you have already remarked that in England you understand that it may be a good bargain to the parish to pay 60/. for the getting rid of a labourer's family, which appears to cost the parish 25/. a year ; admitting that the principle of the judg- ment alluded to was affirmed, do you think the same permanent objection would exist in tLe county of Renfrew to the proposition of charging emigration on the county rate, which under existing circumstances you think would practically occur? — If it were solenmly determined to be the law of Scotland, that an able- bodied man who could not find employment were entitled as a legal claim to demand support from the parish, we should then bc: precisely, or very nearly, on the same footing as England ; of course what now appears to be surrounded with objections of the most formidable description, would then come to a mere consideration of comparative advantage or disadvantage in commuting one burden for another. 1806. If i' i8ig, the Court of Session, instead of getting rid of the question of the merits in the Abbey Parish case, and disposing of it on the point of the sheriff's jurisdiction, had affirmed the decision of the sheriff, what would have be^n the effect of a final judgment, so affirming the claim of able-bodied men in Scotland on the poor rate ' — It appears to me that the effect of such an affirma- tion would bc this, we should jest have the same extent of claims, with all their injurious consequences, iu.a exist in England, with this difference, so far as I understand any thing of the practice in England, that in Scotland the assessment will be imposed by the per.sons, or chiefly by the persons on whom the burden of payment principally falls, which I believe is not the case in England. But as an off-set for that advantage, we should be more exposed to such claims, because the conditions on which a legal settlement in Scotland is acquired are simple and easy compared with those which I understand to be established in England. 1 807. Did not the decision of the sheriff of Renfrew confirm the claim of 825 able-bodied men ? — In eftect it did so. I wish it to be understood that the judg- ment referred to was not giv^" by me, as is usually the case, in the first instance ; it was given by a gentleman of much higher attainments, Mr. Dunlop, the principal sheriff, whose usual province it is to review my judgments when parties are dis- satisfied. I was at that period much engaged in the management of voluntary contributions for indigent work-people, and too much in contact both with them « and EB ►ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 161 lanagers relief of ' treating f such a ig which rice, and teracted ; lement of )ortant to ce, made Bvails for ility with ■sons who ide them, rovidence ircial and i are dis- our, when ouses will e, and by > constant iome next- ;e of some ck against which the J county o*" t' tf.A the asideration rate, which ition; you be a good (lily, which ' the judg- tion would lion on the practically lat an ablc- cluim to nearly, on unded with to a mere one burden le question >oint of the vould have ied men in an afiirma- ith all their so far as ; asxe.Hsment the burden id. But as ms, because simple and and. aim of 835 kt the judg- 8t instance ; he principal ties are dis- )f voluntary with them Aud and th; managers for the poor to make it desirable for me to judge in the question, and I requested the ftheriifto do so. 1 808. You have stated, that three years continued residence is necessary to settlement ; are not the words of the Scotch law, that " haunting and resorting " for the space of three years should give a settlement ? — I have been accustomed to consider the general law of settlement as so clear, that I did not think it necessary to peruse minutely the whole Acts of the Scottish Parliament preparatory to my examination; bi. T apprehend that the expressions referred to are applied to vagrants, and to questions of relief between one [larish and another, and do not regulate the general law of settlement. 1 809. Are you aware of the case of the parish of Rescobie, decided in 1 80 1 , where a common vagrant was held to have acquired a settlement in a parish where she had most haunted for the last three years, to the effect of making that parish liable to the i:naintenance of her bastard child ? — I would observe, that although we have practically no law of removal in Scotland, we have an equivalent for it in daily practice. Wherever a person is found destitute in a parish, where such person has no legal settlement, the managers for the poor do not hesitate to administer relief to prevent starvation, but then they immediately notify this circumstance to the parish where the settlement exists, and have a right by law, as creditors, to compel that parish to repay their advances, and all future advances, or else to remove the chargeable person. I have not thought it necessary to mention to the Committee, how the settlement of parents governs that of their children, or of husbands that of their wives, or liow the place of birth gives a settlement where no other ground of settlement is known. In the case of Rescobie, th* vagrant mother's settlement (I believe) under a special enactment was found to fix upon one of a number of conflicting parishes the burden of supporting the destitute child. I believe the case does not affect the general rule. 1810. In a former part of your evidence you have stated, that great benefit would result from extending the period to seven years upon which a settlement might be obtained ; will you have the goodness to state now that benefit would arise, if there was not at the same time a compulsory power of removal of those Irish, to whom reference has been made, when there is no parish in Ireland to which you can remove them ? — In making any such proposition regarding settle- ment, I would accompany that proposition by another, for authority to remove in the most summary manner persons who were become chargeable upon the parish ; and also, if practicable, to prevent the entrance of every person from Ireland, England, or any foreign country, coming in the character of a beggar or a vagrant. 1811. In the late period of distress in the neighbourhood of Glasgow, may there not have been several hundred families resident in that part of the country, now receiving relief, whom it might be very desirable to remove, and who have not resided seven years ? — Yes. 1812. How could you make that power of removal practically applicable to those persons? — I am not aware, from the state of the question, where tne difficulty lies. I do not perceive why the managers of the poor may not give directions to have such particular families sent home by the steam boat, and to send a person with thero ; but wherever an Irish person has acquired a settlement, of course he must be regarded as settled in the fullest sense of the word, and it would be iropos- •ible with justice to make a retrospect. ' 1813. If you had in a populous district such as yours, four or five hundred fami- lies that it might be desirable to remove, do you conceive in point of fact you could carry such a law into strict effect, by removing these four or five hundred families by the force of law? — No; but in the course of the year ending this month, we have removed 1517 Irish persons from Paisley to Ireland, paying their passage home by a steam boat. 1814. Were they removed in a voluntary manner, or by the compulsion of law? — By a sort of moral compulsion. Sonic perhaps had acquired a settlement, and certainly many of them had not, but they fouiul they could get no work, and we gave them the means of returning. This I believe was done in Glasgow to a still greater extent. 181,5. What had been the period of the residence of those persons ? — I presume the great majority of them had not acquired a settlement ; but I have no means of answering the question more particularly. i8i(i. Had you any security against their return ? — No, none at all, except that 237. X security A, CampStU, Etq. 34 Klarcb, 1817. 1 62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. Campbell, Esq. 94 March, 1827. II security which must have arisen from their own fear of being immetiiately sent back if they should return in a period of scarcity of employment. 1817. If those persons came back, would they not at any time revive their claim of settlement ? — I should suppose that a short absence in Ireland would not do that away. 1818. Do you concur with the evidence given by the preceding witnesses from Scotland, as to the fact, that a weaver utterly out of employment cannot be sus- tained with his family for less than twenty pounds ? — I should suppose it v-ould require twenty pounds to maintain such a family. 1819. Supposing distress to continue in Renfrew at the same rate as last year, and that no cnarity is extended to that county from other parts of the kingdom, do you not consider in point of fact that the same expense is unavoidably occasioned within that county as would be occasioned under a system of poor laws, provided that under such poor laws persons were only relieved to the extent of keeping them alive, and supposing that the charitable feelings of the county of Renfrew would induce voluntary subscriptions to the extent of keeping that population alive ; in putting this question to you, you will have the goodness to understand that it is not meant to imply that the same persons would incur the same expense, but whether identically the same expense would not be under these terms imposed upon the county of Renfrew ? — The expense of last year was really so great that I do not see how it is morally possible to levy in any kind of way by compulsory means 22,000/. upon so small a county as Renfrew; it would be considered a burthen quite intolerable ; and I do not in the least doubt that if the humane supply we received from the south had been withheld, the contributions from the county of Renfrew itself could not have maintained those people, and that the consequences must have been starvation and disease, and probably disturbance. But I may add, that the supposition of such distress being renewed is one which will not be regarded as probable ; there arc at present but a small proportion of able-bodied artisans out of employment ; the bulk of persons who remain burdens on the voluntary contribution fund managed by the County Committee, was last week about 900 families, of whom by far the greatest portion consists of persons unfit for emigration. I do not believe that any one of the persons petitioning to go to Canada is among the number. 1820. According to the law of Scotland at present, is settlement gained by apprenticeship ? — No. 1821. In reference to your evidence on the present state of distress in Renfrew- shire, are you of opinion that there would be no permanent distress in consequence of the present extent of its population, if the inconvenient influx of the Irish could be guarded against ? — I certainly think that if nati\ es of Scotland alone were concerned, there would be no surplus population. 1 S22. A person engaged in a manufacturing district as an apprentice, after residence with that manufacturer for seven years, does not gain a settlement ? — If such person be a minor, and resident in family with his father, I think he would hot gain a settlement ; but if he had been what in Scotland we call " forisfa- miliated," and earning his own livelihood, there is nothing in the circumstance of his being an apprentice which should prevent his gaining a settlement by industrial residence for three years. 1 823. During the time of the apprenticeship, is it in the power of any person to remove an apprentice out of the parish ? — Certainly not. 1 824. Does it not then follow, that manufacturers in the manufacturing districts have the power of indefinitely extending the population by means of taking apprentices ? — Unquestionably, if those apprentices come from another district. Work-people who are ill paid or unemployed in one place, will go to another where they expect to be better off; and manufacturers who require additional work-people will always command them by raising the wages. . 1825. Is it not the interest of the manufacture r, in times when trade is goinf; on well, to increase beyond his number of appi entices, without any view to the subsequent burthen there may be on tlic parish ? — With reference to master manu- facturers of musliu or of silk goods, there is no such practice known 'a Scotland as taking apprentices as between employer and weaver. In the silk and muslin trade, each web is the subject of a special contract with the weaver, v ho may have as many apprentices as he finds convenient. I ought to explain, that by the term apprentice, in Scotland, is usuully, nnd I believe always meant, a beginner in some trade, under a written contract, which we call an " Indcoture," a term applied districts )f taking district. another Idditional I goinf; on to the ler manu- 1 Scotland ii muslin lay have the term tinner in a term applied ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 163 applied in Scotland to no other instrument. And perhaps I may with pr*. priety farther mention, that complaints, in the course of my twenty-four years expedience of Renfrewshire, have been made more than once in''mes of distress arising from low wages, thtt but for the expense of the indenture stamp duty, the practice of binding learnci 3 at the weaving trade for four or five years would become general, and would serve as a means of lessening tlie number of persons entering into the trade ; the fact being, that many young men verbally agree to serve for a term of years, and after a year or two break their engagement (which is not legally binding) and set up for themselves. I thought the proposal deserving of considera- tion, as a very sensible remedy. 1826. As the laTir stands at present, supposing the redundant manufacturing population to be drawn off by emigration, would not the power on the part of masters tc take apprentices, make the parish liable to the recurrence of an evil which they on their part have no power of preventing? — The circumstances of the question are very applicable to England, where I believe apprenticeships are supposed to create a settlement ; but such is not the condition of Scotland ; and in the trndc of a weaver of silks or muslins, it is a matter of no importance what- ever under what denomination those employed by him may pass, for journeymen or work-people engaged on any terms from a distance will just have the same rights and the same effect as if they had been indented apprentices. It is very clear that whenever a period of good trade and high wages occurs, there is an imme- diate intlux of workers, some of them yoing men betaking themselves to that trade as a permanent means of subsistence ; and when a reverse comes, some portion of that influx may be thrown upon the parish as persons who have acquired a legal settlement therein ; but as already mentioned, if they are able-bodied persons, their claims would be resisted as matter of right, and their relief must depend on voluntary contribution. 1 827. Do you consider that, supposing emigration to be an adequate relief at the present moment, any security can be devised against the recurrence of an evil produced in the manner above suggested ; supposing emigration to be an adequate means of relief by raising wages, and supposing a market to exist for goods at a corresponding atWance ? — I think there might be some securities for the continuance of this state of things, but whether eflicient securities I dare not venture to say. i8j8. Would you not consider the circumstance of extending the period from three years to seven, as tending materially to remove this objection? — I certainly should, joined with a power of summary removal ; and perhaps joined also with ■ome regulations which might be adopted without a violation of the principle of free intercourse of the natives of the different parts of the United Kingdom, such as one which has been talked of, requiring of the masters of steam boats and other vessels navigating between the few ports that are on the contiguous coasts of Britain and Ireland, to take some parish certificate or passport from persons applying for passage to Scotland, bearing that they are not beggars or vagrants, but persons who have been accustomed to earn their own subsistence. Any plan, however, to stop the influx of poor Irish people must be attended with a great many difficulties ; and in the case I have supposed, would probably be attended with a great many forged passes and certificates ; a remedy applied in Ireland wo jld be more eflectual than any applied here. 1839. Supposing that after the 2Ath of May a very considerable number of persons were in a state of starvation, do you not conceive that the county would be ready to contribute more for the purposes of emigration than merely for their temporary support? — It would depend very much, I think, upon the extremity of the pressure, whether the county would be disposed to contribute or not ; because in no ordinary circumstances do I think that the county of Renfrew would chbbse to establish such a precedent as might eventually bear against them at some fiitufe time. I feel perfectly sure they would not do it at present, the distress being so considerably abated. 1 830. Do you not conceive that after the 24th of May there will be a very great mass of population in such a state, that emergency will exist to a great l]egree for some more effectual relief than merely temporary support? — I nave no doubt some distressing cases will occur, but I have great hopes that they will not be to a very great, and certainly not to any alarming extent ; and I am afraid, without meaning any disparagevient to the inhabitants of Renfrewshire, that nothing short 337. X 2 of A. Can^fbtll, 34 March, 1847. i64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT CO^iMITTEE A. Campbell, 94 Maicb, 1817. of something alarming, from great numbers being out of wori<, will be sufficient to prcTduce any renewed generui contribution. 1831. You are really of opinion that there is not any great probability of a state of distress, such as you can call alarming, taking place at that period r — No, I think not. 1 832. Then, in point of fact, as you are of opinion this distress is lessening, you must ndmit that the removal of a comparatively smaH number of families would mitigate the distress? — I think that the removal of very small rumber just now will produce a greater effect than the removal of a much greater number three months ago. 1 833. Then in bettering the wages of those that remain, removal will be better just now than three months before or after ? — Three months ago there were mul- titudes of able-bodied weavers unemployed, now there are few of that class without some employment ; but the wages of all, except the silk weavers, are low, and their means are too much exhausted, by previous distrus, to puable them to encounter any farther stagnation of trade that might occur. This being their condition, I think that if any thing is to be done by emigration, for improving that condition, it would be of importance to them that it should be done at the present rather than at a future time ; for they have been all counting upon the probability of getting themselves sent out to Canada at this time ; and 1 believe in many instances they have abstained from securing houses for the ensuing year, and many of them live in the houses of landlords who are not at all averse to get quit of tenants who pay them nothing. 1834. Therefore you are clearly of opinion that prior to the 24th of May will be the most advantageous period for commencing any experiment of this sort? — I am clearly of opinion that prior to the term of removal, which is the 15th of May old style, it would be most advantageous to carry into effect any project of emi- gration which may be deemed expedient. 1 835. Have the goodness to state whether the relief which you now give to the poor in your neighbourhood has not very much diminished during the last week? — Our total expenditure, since the 22d day of February, has been 470/.; and the number of families now on the county committee list is 936, whereas the average for the previous period was 9,030 families, and the highest number at any time since the distresses began in Spring 1826 was 2,725 families. The proportion of Irish families has been about one-fourth ; but if those who applied for a free passage back to Ireland be included, the proportion will exceed one half of the whole number upon the county fund. I am informed by a gentleman in Glasgow, conversant in such matters, that the proportion of Irish applicants in that city was considerably greater ; but the distress in Glasgow was by no means so severely felt as in Paisley, where the great bulk of the population consists of operative manufacturers, and where the number of capitalists and the wealth is inferior in a ', ary great degree. 1 836. If an Irishman had resided three years continuously in Glasgow and obtained a settlement, and then went to Ireland for five years and came back again, would his settlement at once revive ? — That is a doubtful point, as I con- ceive. 1837. Supposing a Scotchman absents himself from Scotland at any time, hw settlement is ip the last place where he has continuously resided for three yean, is it not? — It is. 1 838. Would not that apply to any other person who gained a settlement in the same manner as a Scotchman did ? — Certainly. 1 839. Therefore an Irishman having gained a settlement, and absenting him- self for a time, can, again regain a s'jttlement ?— If an Irishman resides fully three years in a parish in Scotland, and then goes a«'ay to Ireland and remains absent for a year or two, and then he comes back again and takes up his residence io another part of Scotland for a period less of three years, he will have acquired no right from his last residence. But as a matter of opinion, I should say that he had a right, in case of poverty, and in case of having gain J no intermediate, settlement elsewhere, to recur upon the } lace of settlement ' aich he had gained in Scotland. 1840. Can the parish remove those persons who will be turned out of their houses in the month of May, if they are destitute of a place to go to ?— They ctftainly cannot. n64i> Do you conceive that the case of Pollock v. Darling decides more than this; I of Uuk }-They ore than thii; ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 16s this; that if the Kirk session and heritors, a body legally entitled to make a poor's rate, do make a rate for the support of able-bodied persons thei. authority will be supported by the supreme court against persons refusing > pay? — I have already stated as well as I could, that so far as I have heard, the decision referred to has not been regarded as a precedent of much authority; it is a single decision, and does not set the question at rest. 1 842. Supposing it a precedent entitled 'to full authority, does it decide more than that if a voluntary rate is made by the Kirk session and heritors, that rate will be supported by the supreme court ?— Certainly there is no decision on any further point, but there is a further principle assumed, because if a man has no right make an assessment, he has no right to make another pay it. 1 843. Do you conceive there is any legal authority for the claim made as of right by able-bodied persons? — I regard the claim of an able-boc^ied person as an undecided case. I believe it is different in England, but in Scotland a single decision of the supreme Scottish court is not as a matter of course held to seme the l&vr in a manner that may not be altered by another decision, given perhaps in a case more favourably circumstanced for trying an abstract point of law. 1 844. The case of the Abbey parish does not decide more than that the sheriff has no power to review the decisions of the Kirk session and heritors as to relief? — It certainly decides no more. 1845. Therefore the sheritTs decision has no more weight than as his individual opinion ? — It has no more. 1 846. As Scotchmen get no -settlement in Ireland, would it not be equitable to withhold it from Irish settlers in Scotland, to prevent the Scotch settlement giving undue encouragement to the influx of Irishmen into Scotland ? — Certainly, that would be equitwle. i847. You said that you moved a large number of people from Paisley to Ireland ; do yuu believe that if those persons had been in a country parish where there was no police and no power, those persons could have been induced to leave that parish if it had not been their own wish and choice ? — They could only be removed by their own wish and choice, but this was exactly what was done in Paisley. The Irish feel that their residence end their claims are reganjed with freat jealousy, and they are probably either ignorant of tba decision in the case of liggins in the year 1 824, or doubtful if it would be of av'>il to them ; and such was the want of employment, that a free passage to Ireland, where they might be better, was their own choice. 1 appreh9nd that any parish who chose to say. You may go back to your own country or stay here wiuiout relief, might find the same effects to follow. 1 848. In the event of a cotton mill failing, and any large number of persons being nH !enly throvn out of employment, the ' could not be removed by a person paying the rate ' -If they have been resident for three years, there is no power to remove tnem. 1 849. Although this question may, in substance, have been put to you before, the Committer !\re anxious to put it again in a more specific manner ; supposing that the present redundant paupers of Renfrew could be removed from that county in consequence of every other county adjoining being utterly unable to give them employment, and supposing that all assistance from charity was limited to the county of Renfrew iteelf, would there, in your opinion, be any difference in the situation of the county of Renfrew now, and the situation of the county of Renfrew under the system of poor lawrs, provided that charity on the one hand indOces the inhabitants of the county not to allow "ny to* perish for want of food entirely, maintaining them at the lowest possible quanvity of food that can keep human existeince uive, and on the other, supposing tl- Pamell, Bart, a Member of the Committee, made the folio/wing Statement:] STATEMENT delivered in by Sir Henry Pamell, on the Population of Ireland. THE new abridgement of " Philosophical Transactions," contains a paper, written by Captain South, who made an enumeration of the people of Ireland, in ' the year 1 695. By this it appears, that the population of Ireland amounted in that year to 1,034,102*. Captain South had the means of acquiring correct infor- mation on the subject, in consequence of his being at that time a Commissioner of the Revenue in Ireland, and of his having to carry into execution an Act for collecting a Poll Tax. In 1792, Dr. Beaufort computed th» population of Ireland to amount to 4,088,226. This calculation was made upon the number of houses contained in the returns of the Hearth Money collectors. He allowed six persons to a house. According to the census made in the year 1821, the number of people in Ireland at that time, was 6,8ui,S27. In several instances in which actual enu- merations have since been made, it has appeared that the numbers contained tH the census were less than they ought to have been. If Dr. Beaufort's calculation had been made at the rate of five persons to a house, the number of people in Ireland in 1792 would have been 3,406,865 ; and therefore, as there appear to be good reasons tor supposing that Dr. Beaufort's estimate was too high, and the census of 1 82 1 too low, it may not be far from correct to come to the conclusion, that in the thirty years preceding 1821, the population of Ireland was doubled. The population of Ireland in 1821 being known, and also the rate at which it had increased up to that time, it is not difficult to decide, with tolerable accuracy, what the amount of it is at the present time. The immediate cause of the increase of population, is the excess of the births above the deaths ; and the rate of increase, or the period of doubling, depends upon the proportion which the excess of the births above the deaths bear to the whole population. , The excess of births is occasioned by and in proponlon to three causes ; ist, The proltficness of the marriages; ad. The proportion of the bom which lives to marrr; 3d, The earlipet - - l.\ Beef - $g • ' - 2 P<»k - - 1 2 to i6 - 2 Indian Meal -31 - - W. I. Sugar f - - 2 Not knowing the exact aitualionR ^ u per Darrifi 1 f|,g ^^j, „, transport caimni be now " " reckoned on; but I presume the • prices charged for the daily rations will cover it. 3 6 7 14 10 — 15 - per cwt, 337. X.4 Under Sir HeniyPamett. «7 Marcl^, i8<7. A. C Buchanan, ^ N. B. Under the head of Flour, I include such other farinaceous ford as might be thought advisable to substitute occasionally ; and during the winter months, the allowance of meat might be changed for fresh Beef, which would be a small saving, as it would be had for about 1 1 d. per lb. I would only recommend cows to families having children, or one cow between two men and their wives. Vk - >*»*iSufc*a>i>r Jiiii." i68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE A.C Bwchman, >■ _i •7 Marcfi, 1817. Under any circumstances the disbursement should not exceed the sum stated in the estimate ; and such deductions as could possibly be effected, should bo made by the Superintendent with the concurrence of the settler. Under the head of Incidents, is included medical assistance. It will be indispensable to nave a large contingent fund to set off agnii.st numerous accidents which must, from the nature of the business, be unavoidable Lieut. T. C. Whitt. ■J Mr. Otorge Tkompmm. Lieut. Thomas Charles While again called in ; and Examined. 1850. THE Committee understand you wish to correct some part of your evidence? — Yes. 1 8.5 1 . You allude to your answer to Question 459 ? — My answer to that question is merely an assent to a general proposition, it ought not therefore to be considered as having any application to the actual state of the Cape. There are also some other alterations which I wish to make in explanation of my answer to question 14O0 : I beg to observe, that being quite sure tnat it was not my intention to state *' that the tendency of the supply of produce was to become redundant" under existing circumstances, I conceived the question to involve a supposititious case only like the one that preceded it, and the first part of iy answer was given under that in'r >ssion ; the latter part of th 'swe: die to the real state of the colony wiUi respect to labour, id i.on. * ' . . ..ji «. ii irould ap(,(-ar to the v'ommitttc, that the supply of prod) ce haa :(). You arc acquainted with tne detail of the arrangement, vi/,. that the emigrant I'^ouid receive 1 *. a day and be fed, and thai he should enter into a bond with the settler, and that the settler binds himself to pay 3/. a year, which is one- fourth more than what he pays the labourer, to th'' government, as an annual instalment for tiie repayment of the money advanced ? — Yes. i86u. Are you of opinion that it would be more expcdieit that all those emi- grants, when th. y* land in the country, should \ c bound to the government and let out to the coll us upon those teii^b, rather '>an that the olonist should put himself in relai . with the emigrant? — I tlrnk it would be very desirable to be bound out bv tl:< ;ov( mment ; they wt jld conceive they would he better supported, and the master v iu!d have mor ■ dependence upon the contra 1 86i. Hav ou ev known any instance of an arrangement of this sort having •ucceeded r — ' n nc •. /are of any at this moment. 58C2. Are 1 ill « 1875. Have you in your hand the documcnti, ahowing in detuil the succeaa of the difTerent pauprr settlers at that period? — I have. 1876. Is that in Albany ?— Yes. 1877. '^he Coatmitteo see one person there stated to possess 300 head of cattle; have you the means of knowing whether that person came out as ■ pauper? — I believe without alty means whatever, as many othera,i oloth-weavers, tftilors, shoemakers, and others, are in posscwion of from a small number up to 400 head of cattle at this moment. 1878. Have any of theiSettlers grown wheat with success ? — No, the rust having attacked the crops for the first two or three years, it has not been so mat\ at- ttnded to. 1879. Have they grown wheat since with more succesar — I have not ascertained in the laat two years, whether they have or not. 1 880. Have you had an opportunity of examining the details given in of the eipense at which it would be necessary to locate the pauper* at the Cape ? — 1 have observed it, and I think it is very near correct. 1881. Have you any doubt whatever that if a pauper were located at the Cape, in the manner stated by preceding witueiises, that at the end of seven yeara bt would be able to pay, without the slightest difficulty, at the rate of 3 A per annum aa interest upon the money advanced to him ?— With the greatest eaaa, I have no doubt. 1 883. State your ground for that opinion ? — I refer generally to those docu- ments, and diey will show that some of the paupers sent from Nottingham »re doing well, and in possession of considerable property ; I allude to them particu- kurly, because they w^re paupers. The paper I have in my hand will illustrate my meaning. [The Witness delivered in the following Paper :] Trad«. A. B. glass-cutter - C. D. umbrella-maker F. G. clothworker - H. K. weaver L. M. d* Instances of individual success of the Emigrants of 1830, going out without capital, some as puupers : Now in poMeskion of t^.') head of cattle. 70 - fl», 3 horses, I /{o sheep and goats. • 1 00 head of cattle, 1 horse, I waggon, and 1 plough. 3 1 head of cattle, 35 sheep and goats. 38 head of catUe, 1 waggon, I plough. 1 883. Did not some of the people from Nottingham return ?— Yes, five of them ; but while they were there they earned so much as to pay their passage home. ' 1 884. Was not there very great distress for a considerable period among those persons sent out in the year 1 8ao? — I have no doubt there was considerable distress. 1 885. For two years or more ? — More perhaps. 1 886. Those paupers you allude to, did not give a good account of the settle- ment ? — No, it was on account of the rust, but that has disappeared, and tbey were not at all acquainted with thp localities of the country. 1 887. You spoke of the capabilities of the colony to produce cotton ; you limit that to some part only ? — It has been tried only in the Cape district ; ho.w it will succeed on the frontiers, or in Albany, I do not know. 1 888. .Has it bgen tried upon a large scale ? — No, only in a garden or so. 1889. The eastern coast is the finest part ?— Yes. 1890. Has it ever been attempted to cultivate tobacco? — Yea; but it is not allowed to come to this country, or we could supply nearly half the country. 1 891. Is it grown to any extent?— Yes, for colonial consumption. 1892. When you say it is prohibited, you mean the duty is too high?— No, it it is prohibited. 1893. Do you export any tobacco ? — No, I do not think we do. 1894. For how m^ny years has it been cultivated at the Cape ?— Above too yenr.s or more among the Dutch ; pvery faripPf cultivates for his own consumption, thioughout the colony. 1 595- Is 1914. Mr. Richard Webber Eaton, called in ; and Examined. 1915. WILL you be good enough to explain to the Committee your cohnexion at the Cape of Good Hope?— I resided there as a merchant seven years and a half. • 1916. When did you leave it? — In April last ' ■' 1917. Have you had an opportunity of reading the evidence given before this Committee ?— Yes. 1918. And have heard the evidence of to-day? — Yes, pretty generally; and I concur in the evidence ! have read, so far as I am able to judge of it ; but having cl)iefly residec) in Cape Town, and been engaged in commercial pursuits, I possess but limited information as to the circumstances of location, never having visited the settlement. 1919. Are you ab)e to form.'A decided opinion as to the disposition that would exist on the part of the colonists of the Cape, to consent to repay the expense of the passage of the labourer there, by paying so much per annum? — I apprehend 237. . ■ Y J they J7 Mnrcli, 1HJ7. ON EMIGIIATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa;. 171 1 895. Is tliere any exportation of dried fruit from the Citpe ? — Yes. Mr. i8()l). To any extent ?— There is a considerable supply sent to St. Helena utid (irorgeTkampnm. Now South Wales ; and aUo the Hhip.s from India, touching for Hupplic.i, carry oH' considerable (|uantitiefl. 1897. That dried fruit is verv good, of iu kind? — Yen. 1898. When did you leave tlic (Jape?— Twelve months ugo. 1899. What was the price of wheat per quarter, iu British money, at that time? — About G«. or 7«. the Winche»tor bushel ; it got up almost immediately after , to iQ§. or ia«. 1900. And yet you anticipate un export of wheat to this country P — In due time, when labour is more reasonable. 1 90 1. Does not the dearness of wheat arise from the deamcts of labour? — Principally it docs ; but it is also owing to the restrictions upon the corn, not allowing it to be exported when there is the least idea of a short crop, and there is no stimulus to the farmer to cultivate it. I9()'2. Have you ever engaged any persons to go from this country? — No, I am a merchant in Cape Town. 1 1203. In the case of mr^ented labourers, do you apprehend there would be any diHiculty in enforcing the indentures ?-^I think not. 1904. Do you think tlic colonists would like to take the responsibility of en- forcing the indenture upon themselves? — lam notable to answer that question; I think bettor evidence has been given upon that .subject. 190,';. What i.H your impression?'-! thmk they would. . .19U(). You think no discontent would be creat'^.d in the ipipd of the indented emigrant, by the difference belween his wages and the wages of the free co- lonist? — That is to be considered ; the terms arc in favour of tne master. 1907. You think the master would have it amply in his power to enforce the indenture ? — Yes. 1908. Do you know the terms upon which indented labourers have been hitherto engaged? — Mr. Ingram's men went out, and they had to refund, the males 2a/. and the females, I believe, 15/. and the cliildren 1 1 /. 1 909. You hftve stated, that persons going upon those terms have become in- depondcnt ? — Many of Mr. Moody's men, who were taken ont at a previous time, have become tn very good circumstances. 1910. Do you conceive that the same good fortune would attend persons who went out under the lower rate of engagement now proposed ? — I have no doubt of it. 1911. Their gains in the first year would not be the .same, would they? — No, of course not. 191a. In the paper you have given in, as proving the success of the pauper emigrants, the Comniittee observe that almost all those persons stated to be suc- cessful are following particular trades? — Some of them are; but there are other documents, which I have given in. IQ13. Have you any idoa of the number of white inhabitants in the colony of the Cape of Good Hop3 ? — About 70,00a 1914. The blacks? — Hottentots, free blacks and slaves, near 50,000. i ^ W'j ii Mr. R. ly. EntnH. 173 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE HEFORE fiEF^FCT COMMITTEE Mr. rf. talon. «7 Mtrcb, they nre not the particn who rould objt'ct; the urttlrr himNclf irnt out would be the only party to iiiukc iin ohjiction to it, it would bu inimnteriul to the iimstur, li)jo. Arc you of opinion tlmt (he coloiii'ttA nt the Ciipc, upon tin; terms of havintjf an cnii^nint Nrttlcr bound to him tor five yi-iir.i for (jl. n year, would ho, in conitideration of rc^c■ivin^' such a Nettlcr, ronirnt to pay 3/. a year to the local authorities of the Ciipe fur the re puymont of the expeiiHe incurred by that emi- grant ? — I should think he would very rrndily concur, ho long us the two iiumi together would only amount to a reaHonubtn rate of wagcH. i()2i. When you Nuy, provided the two .sum.s together do not amount to ah»v« a rcuNonuble rate of wngcN, do you contemplate placing the emigrant, after deducting that repayment, in u state in which no can maintain himself with com* fort?— Of course. 1933. Do you consider that 9/. a year is a fair remuneration for labour at the Cape, with subsistence? — I should presume it is, although I believe at the same time it is eniuidcrably below the present rate of wages. 1923. Have you any means of knowing, of your own knowledge, that 9/. a year, with food, will provicle the labouring servant with not only the necessaries, but comforts of life; — I should think it amply sufficient in the country districts, pro- vided that he is subsisted ; I should think it sufficient to find him with clothing and other little comforts that might be necessary. 19.24. Would he be able out of that sum to suve as much money at the expi- ration of his term of indenture, as would enable him to become a small farmer or occupier ? — No, he would not be able to save any thing out of that. 1925. At the expirtttion of the term of his inaenturc he would bcpennylcsM? — Yes, unless he happened to be ver/ prudent ; I apprehend the wages are unusually low in comparison with the rate 01 wages in the colony. 1926. You have stated that you were a merchant in Cnpe Town? — Yes. 1927. You do not intend to apply the rate of wages, of 9/ a year, to the inha- bitants of Cnpe Town, but to the inhabitants of the newly settled districts? — Yes; but T have understood that the rate of wages in the new settlement are much higher than in Cape Town. 1938. What do you understand that to be? — Four or five shillings a day; but I ought to state that I am very imperfectly informed upon those subjects ; I have never visited the frontier, and it is only from casual conversations upon the subject I am able to form any judgment whatever, and I should be very diffident in ex- pressing an opinion. 1929. Is there any demand for manual labour beyond what can be supplied at Cape Town ? — Yes, I think there is. 1930. What is the ordinary rate of wages to a household servant in Cape Town, of the lower class ? — Thirty or forty shillings a month. 1931. That includes subsistence ? — Yes. 1033. Do you think there would be any readiness on the part of the inhabitants of Cape Town to take a number of persons of that description, and paying a cer- tain sum per annum in the shape of repaying their expenses? — I Question if the inhabitants of Cape Town would be willing to take indentured houactiold servants. 1933. From the general impression you receive at the Cape, as well as your own observation, are you of opinion the resources of the Cape would be materially increased under the circumstance of the introduction of labour pr'>{[)ortioned to the demand r— I think so. 1 934. Do you know of any circumstance that would be likely to be of equal advantage to the Cape ? — No, I know of no other ; when I say it seems to me to be so desirable, .1 feel some doubt in my own mind on the subject of indenturing the emigrants for a period of five or seven years ; it has appeared to me that considerable disputes and discontent have existed in those cases where emigrants have been so indentured ; and I think that the indentured servants might perhaps be dissatisfied if they found they were bound for a period of five or seven years at a rate of wages much below that which they could obtain were they at liberty to carry their labour elsewhere. 1 935. But you are aware, by the terms of the proposition, that they would not be removed from their own country unles,« they consented to such franfement? — Yes. 1 936. And do you not conceive that when that was made a ground for them to get rid of their present sufferings and distresses, that their objection would be niminished to such aa arrangement? — Yes; but if they f«lt they could earn more wages ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 173 WBgei if they wt^re not indentured, they would rather undertake to repay the 3/. themaelves to government, and be at liberty then to find employment wherever they rould. 1937. In point of fact you would concur with Mr. Thompaon in opinion, that to connign them .-is it were to the government, and to leave a diicretion aa to the manner of di«|K)Rin({ of them there, necuring in one way or the other the payment of the money, would be the wincmt counc? — I HJiould have an objection to consign them to the government, and allow the government to apprentice them to the col^iMii ; there \\m been a good deal of disMatisfactiun as to the disposal of Priie Apprentices under tho^e circumstances, and it might afford opportunities that would tend to create much dissatisfaction if the government had the disposal of them. 1938. 'Do you not think some principle might bo cstabliihed, such as drawing lots, or some other, so an to make it impos^iiblc that any principleof favouritism could be applied r — Yes, I think it possible sumc such plan might exist, but there would be no party between the government and the settler in those cases ; I think the settler in all prubability would be dissatisfied if he were at the disposal of others for u lung period ; if the period were short, it would be of little consequence; if he was apprenticed for twelve months,, to find a provision for him at his arrival at the colony, nnd at the end of twelve months, if he was at liberty to seek employ- ment where lie could find it, only compelling his muster at all times to reserve so much of his wages u.be always prefers it when she can get it ; and whenever tha price of wheat at the Cape of Good Hope is at or below 1 00 rix dollars per load, it forms a safe remittance to the Isle of France. 1947. How is the quality of wheat, compared with English wheat? — Very superior ; I believe there is no wheat superior to it in the world. 1948. Is wheat bread the ft. xl of *he common people in the Cape ? — Yes, ex- cept in ca^es of failure ; the failure of the crops occasioned the introduction of barley brsad among the inhabitants of the distant parts of the colony. 1949. Is ' rtaize cultivated ? —Yes, to a limited extent ; and I have often thought as there happens occasionally so great a scarcity of export corn, the colonists wou'd do well to cultivate maize and rye as in North America, and adopt it for the use of the colony, which is said to be the finest bread made. - 1950. Do potatoes .succeed? — Not very well. 1951. Does not the sweet potatoe vucceed?— It succeeds very well in the colony. • 1952. U ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1817. 175' 1952. Is it used to any considerable extent? — Yes. 1953. Hare you ever heard whether the introduction of a new sort of wh^at would prevent the accident of the rust ? — I have heard that opinion expressed, •nd it has been tried with success in some instances. 1054. If it should not be the case, would it not appear very desirable that the sttf^le food of the countiy should be maize or some other corn not liable to this accident, so as to leave wneat an article of export when a good crop? — Yes, that it my opinion ; but I do not know whether the colony is not too dry for the cul- tivaUon of maize, as an article of general culture. 19.55- Have you ever heard an opinion given of the capacity of parts of the colony grow cotton ? — Yes ; I am not aware of any local advantages as to tha growth of it, but.I have heard opinions expressed in favour of its socoess whers it has been undertaken, but I am not aware of any experiments having been tried to any ffreat extent. 1956. Do you think tobacco could be made an article of export, if not pro- hibited ? — I do not know that I can give an opinion, upon it ; the tobacco g^own in the colony is very inferior to America tobacco. R. Mr. fy. Eaton. Vj March, i8»7- -Very Jovis, 29* die Martiu 1827. Wiliiam Fielden, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 1957. YOU reside near Blackburn, in the county of Lancaster? — I do. 1958. Are you intimately acquainted with the state of the lower classes of the population in that neighbourhood ? — Yes ; from having resided there during the whole time of the distress, I think I can speak to the situation of the country. 1 959. Is the population manufacturing or agricultural, or combined of both ? — Principally manufacturing, very little agricultural, that is, principally grass land, and very little ploughing. i960. Are those grass lands divided into very small farms? — Yes, generally speaking, they are very sinall farms ; forty, fifty, and sixty to one hundred pounda a year. 1961. Has it been very much the case in that neighbourhood for a small farmer to eke out bis subsistence by hand-loom weaving, himself and his family?— Yes, their rents hftve been generally paid from their dependence upon the hand* loom weaving ; they place very little confidence in their farms. 1962. Do you consider that the hand-loom weaving in that district is now almost entirely at an end, as a means of subsistence? — Yes, I should consider so, that there is nothing like a remunerating price now for hand-loom weaving; bad it not been for the assistance which has been afforded by the Relief Committee, and charitable contributions of various sorts, the country must have been in a state of complete starvation ; there are two very extensive hundreds, the higher and lower division of filackbum hundred. 1 963. Do you conceive there is any probability, in the present state of the trade, of any revival of the hand-loom work? — No, I have no distinct prospect of any relief being affordei 1904. Do you think thcie is any probability of a greater demand for cotton goods than exists at present? — I see no channel or prospect whatever of any im- provement we can rely upon. 1965. What effect upon the poor rates, in that part of the country, has been produced by the great depression of the hand-loom weaving trade ? — I am not able to speak as to what tne poor rates are at present, they vary exceedingly in every township ; but I have known one or two instances mentioned to me in the neighbourhood of Padiham, where estates have not been able to pay the amount of Uie poor rates, and have been thrown up ; but I do not consider that to be a general case, by any means. 1966. Do you mean, that in point of fact you have known instances where the amount 01 the poor rates levied has been actually more than the rack-rent of the property ? — I have heard it reported, but I have not known it of my own actual knowledge ; it has been reported to me in speaking of the distresses of the country. 1967. Have you any means of knowing what the quantity of Cotton goods produced in your neighbourhood is now, as comp?red with 1814?— I could have 237. Y 4 brought mUiam Fitlden, Esq. 39 March, 1827. 176 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Witliam Fieltlen, Etq. ag March, 1837. brought a very circumstantial account had I been aware of being called upon ; but only knowing it last night, I can only speak from the recollection I have, &nd what I have lieard upon the subject. In the year 1814, there were not as many goods made in the town and neighbourhood of Blackburn, by about 1 0,000 pieces per week, as there are at the present moment ; and the wages may amount now to about 10,000/. less than they did at that period, ^ 1968. What are the principal causes which, in your mind, have>led to this very low state of trade at present? — There must have been a great combination of causes, and it is very difficult to account for what it may arise from ; there is a great competition now in various quarters, of course, that we never experienced in the time nf war ; America has becopne a considerable manufacturing country. 1 969. Do you attribute much of the temporary distress to the introduction of power-looms? — It certainly must have interfered to a certain degree, because there have been more goods produced by the hand-loom and the power-loom working together; but the introduction of the power-loom, I conceive, will be a cause of saving the manufactures to this kingdom ; without the power-looms the manufactories must be annihilated entirely, for the Americans are making use of the power-loom. 1 970. In your mind, is there any probability that the power-loom manufactories, or any other source whatever, will absorb the population who are now thrown out of employ by the discontinuanc* of the hand loom ? — No, by no m6ans. 1971. Do you therefore contemplate tliat tliis redundant population will be left without hope of remedy, as a constant and increasing burthen upon your parishes ? — I see no prospect whatever of relief being aiforded to them ; it appears to me to be a permanent evil, I do not see how it is to be got over. 1972. What have been the effects produced by the temporary relief which his been afforded from charitable subscriptions?— It has certainly kept the people from starving, with the little remuneration they have been able to get from weaving ; but it may have had a bad consequence in another respect, for it has produced a greater abundance of manufactured goods, for the manufacturer has been enabled in part to pay his wages by the relief that has been afforded by the Relief Com- mittee to the poor weavers ; for instance, he could get his work done so much more reasonably, than if they had been paid entirely by the master naniifacturer. 1973. The manufacturers were not the organs by which the Relief Com- mittee dealt out their assistance ? — No, they were not ; there were committees appointed. ' 1 974. You mean, therefore, that the relief afforded had the effect of reducing the price, or keeping down the price of manufacturing labour ? — It has produced a superabundance of manufactured goods, by enabling the people to be employed who could not have been employed by the master manufacturers, unless the weavers had been enabled to weave upon such low terms and low wages as the master manufacturers gave them ; and, therefore, the relief they have received from the Relief Committee, has enabled the poor weavers to exist, and to work on lower terms than would otherwise have been the case without such assistance. 197,5. Would not the effect have been the same, as to their employment, if they had not received that relief? — They must have starved. 1976. Would not they have worked even for two or three shillings a week, rather than have starved ? — The master manufacturers are now of a class that are not very affluent, and their capitals have been very much diminished by the distresses of the times ; and therefore they could not have afforded to carry on much business from their own capitals. 1977. Are you at all acquainted with Pendle Forest and Padiham? — I am. 1978. Have you not heard that no ppors rates whatever have been levied in some townships or parishes in that district? — I am not so particularly well acquainted as to speak to those points ; I live at about the distance of twelve miles from thence, and I hear those things from report more than from any personal knowledge I liavc of the district. 1979. Have you not heard that reported? — I have not. 1 980. Not during the time that tiic penalty rate was collected, namely, that rate collected to make good the losses of the power-loom weavers ? — No, I have not beard any particulars from that district. 1981. Had it not been for that local relief to which you liav* allpded, the master manufacturers, you say, could not have employed or kept the people from starving ; ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. i77 ■ starving ; that the wages they gave made up, together with the relief, a subsistence to the people ? — Yes. 1982. They paid one and two shillings for labour, for which they must other- wise have paid three or four shillings, to have had the work doner— Yes. I'pSj. Your opinion therefore, in general, of the effect produced by local relief is, that though those contributions have been necessary for preserving the people from actual starvation, they have had in some respect a mischievous effect, in en- couraging over-production of manufactured goods? — Clearly so; for any thing tha*. produces an over-abundance of go'^ds now, is destructive of prices, reduces the prices, and runs down the wages. ' 1984. Have the overseers of the parishes, in the assistance and relief afforded to the poor, contributed themselves to increase this evil ? — Yes, generally I con- ceive they have, for they have been under the necessity of employing the poor in the workhouses in manufacturing; they would have had a dead weight to support if they had not found them some sort of labour ; the only labour tLey could give them was by looms and work, and that has contributed to the making of more cloth than would otherwise have been made. 1985. Have you turned your thoughts in any way to the subject of affording relief to this superabundant population, by means of emigration ? — No, I have not ; I left Laqcashire six or seven weeks ago, it was not then talked of in Lan- cashire, and I have merely seen the discussions of Parliament in the newspapers, since I have been in town. 1986. Do you consider that the present population is redundant, that it is a permanent tax upon the poor rates, a tax which must be rather expected to increase than to diminish ? — Clearly so. 1987. Do you see any means, under the present circumstances, of diminisbbg or reducing that burthen? — None whatever, not the least. 1988. Do you remember what occurred in Lancashire, when spinning factories were first established ? — 1 recollect that period very well. 1 989. Were not a very considerable number of persons thrown out of work, and was not thete great distress in consequence of the introduction of machinery when spinning was introduced by machinery and not by hand labour? — Yes, there was a great dieal of distress, and nmch rioting took |ilace at the time. 1990. Persons who had formerly obtained a good living by s|)inning by hand labour, wore unable to obtain the same wages and in the saute manner, in con- sequence of the introduction of spiiming machinery? — If the description of spinning that was carried on in the neighbourhood of Blackburn is alluded to, that which was done by the hand, the raw cotton was taken out by the weaver, and spun in his own house, and the change was productive of considerable incon- venience in the firs* instance ; great alarm was created, and some spinning mills were destroyed at the time; many persons were thrown out of employment; but at that time the manufacture of the kingdom was in a very limited state, compared with what it is at present. 1 <)()!. Was not the result of the introduction of that machinery an immense increase of the manufactory ?— Very great. 1992. And more advantageous wages for a considerably increased number?— Yr-, materially so. 19()3. You have stated, that at Blackburn the manufacture has extended at the rate of 10,000 pieces a week beyond what it was formerly, when hand loom weaving was solely employed, and that the wages are now 10,000/. a week less thnn at that time? — Yes. 1 ()94. Do not you conceive that ultimately the effect of the present decrease in the cost of production must be an extension of the demand, that persons who do not now use cotton goods in consequence of not being able to afford the use gf them, will, in consequence of the very low price of them, use them? — It will very greatly tend to increase the consumption, but it must be recollected, that we have now rivals wiiom we Lad not before, who are manufacturing as cheaply as we ecu do. i(>95. Though we have those rivals, they are obliged to maintain their rivalry by he.;vy duties on the importation of the commodities from England ? — We are paying much heavier duties in England. 1 allude particularly .0 America, where they are manufacturing the cotton grown at their own doors, without any expense upon it, and we have a duty to pay on the introduction of it into this country. 237. Z 1996. The (rUlium Fielden, 99 March, 1817. 178 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE William Fitlden, Esq. 39 March, 1827. .1 1 996. The question alludes to the duties on the introduction of manufactured goods from this country into otlier countries ; was not the ability that exists of the rivalry of the nations on the continent, and of America, produced by the imposition of heavy duties on British commodities? — Yes, certainly. 1 997. The manufactures in the neighbourhood of Blackburn consist principally of calicoes ? — Yes, principally, and hand-loom weaving principally ; very little power-loom. 1998. Has there not been a considerable extension of the printed trade? — I do not know to what extent; the duties will show that more exactly than I could state it. 1 999. Do not you suppose that a material increase of trade, from what you have heard and experienced, is likely to take place to the East Indies? — Yes, I think that very probable, and that is probably tne only quarter from which we can look for consolation. agoo. And also from Canada and New South Wales ? — That must be very moderate and progressive, I should conceive, for some time. 2001. Do not you think there will be a new demand in an empire like Russia? — If they do not lay on heavy restrictions. aoO'J. Upon the whole, you are rather desponding ? — Yes, the prospects are, 1 conceive, very unfavourable. 2003. Are you at all acqi'.ainted with any part of the county of Lancashire, particularly the hundred of Blackburn, where the lower class of farmers have beea reduced to actual poverty by th". poors rates?— I know of no district suffering half so muc*^ as the dL«;tricts o*" **ie two Blackburn hundreds, the higher and the lower. 2004. Were you in the country at the period when the rate to remunerate the power-loom owners was levied^ — I was. 2005. Was not that levy attended with circumstances of the mo.st dreadful distress?— So much so, that I can mention that in private families where sums of money from the Relief Committee were sent to individuals to have distributed amongst the poor people, the overseers came, and to my family in particular, to request that the distribution of clothes should not be given until the poor people had paid their quotas for tl.e destruction of the power-looms, otherwise their new clothing would be sold up with the rest of their furniture and apparel. 20of). Are you not of opinion that without the measures that were taken to assist tlie population in the hundred of Blackburn, particularly Pendle Forest and Padiham, and some of the neighbouring townships, that rate could not have been levied at all ? — It could not. 2007. Is that in fact levied at this moment? — I do not suppose it is or can be collected, from the very distressed part of the population ; those in more affluent circumstances have paid, but there must be a great many arrears. 2008. Are you not distinctly of opinion that in some parts of the county of Lancaster, if the relief which has been afforded had been withheld, the poor rates could not have supplied the deficiency ? — Most certainly. 2009. You have stated, that you see no prospect of the present manufacturers in the district of Blackburn being enabled to employ the hand-loom weavers who are thrown out of employment? — I have. 2010. During late years, has the demand for labour in that neighbourhood (ittracted persons from distant quarters, seeking employment? — None whatever. 2011. Have no Irish come to that neighbourhood? — No, we have very few Irish. 2013. Then during the la.^t six or eight years, you know of no accession of numbers from other parishes ? — Not for a length of time, for the purpose of hand- loom weavers ; we have very few Irish amongst us ; tl»e population has increased, •'nd a number of strangers must have come io the town, for the spinning trade has '>; fl increased consid-rably in Blackburn within the last two or three years, and tfli^t nas iuorecs d the population considerably. 201s i> Strang fi had not come in, and the unemployed har.d-loom weavers had obuii J eraployment from the power-loom manufacturers, would not that ha', i r^b.r.-'jt^d Se p"i. 'ilation existinp in that immediate neighbourhood; would powfi .1 (i!Ti n,»nufa( lure-" iave been enabled to ernplov the hand-loom •■■Tr..^ pi ver • jm wtA\i:.g is upon much too diminutive a scale to have e' tie ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. «79 E014. Vou 2014. You have already stated the very low wages given to the hand-loom weavers, are you acquainted with the average wages given to tlie power-loom weavers ? — ^Yes. 201.'). What, generally speaking, are their wages? — According to the different qualities made near to or in Blackburn, from thirteen to fourteen pence per piece ; but then there are great expenses incurred in the power-loom manufactory that are not borne by the hand-loom weavers, which greatly enhances the cost. 2016. They are borne by the manufacturer himself, the owner of the factory? —Yes. 2017. What do you suppose are the clear wages which the power-loom weavers may now obtain, beginning with the younger and gradually advancing to the oldest and most skilful ? — 1 should suppose the women and children will be gaining from seven to eight shillings a week ; there are not many men employed, except the overlookers ; but I am speaking of the operatives. 2018. You speak of plain work ? — Yes. 2019. Are there no persons employed on the power-looms who get more than seven or eight shillings a week ? — Not in the vicinity of Blackburn ; but there are some branches of manufactory near Manchester, which are of a much finer desc iption ; those I speak of arc for the coarser descriptions. 2020. Are you aware that in Manchester there are persons employed in weaving the finer branches, who get from ten to twenty shillings a week ? — I know they have in their weaving, in the neighbourhood of Manchester, much more ard uous work, both wider and finer fabrics, and where they have greater earnings, of course. 2021. Do you not consider that the wages of the power-loom weaver are re- duced to the lowest possible rate that is compatible with his bare subsistence, in consequence of the redundancy of labour among the hand-loom weavers ? — Yes, certainly. 2022. Do you not know that the power-loom weavers have been in great distress ? — Yes, in very great distreiss. 2023. Have tiiere been lately any particular circumstances which have entailed great expenses upon the parishes near Blackburn ? — Yes, there have been two very important circumstances, which have thrown a very great onus upon tlie land ; one has been, a parish church which has been built, and which has cost a very large sum of money, from thirty to forty thousand pounds ; the other is, the penalty, (about one thousand eight hundred pounds from the town of Blackburn alone) that has been to be collected, for the breaking of the power-looms, whicii has come at a most unfortunate period, when all these poor people have been exhausted in their means, and not able to cope with it. 2024. Are the rates altogether levied upon the occupiers or upon the owners? — Upon the occupiers. 2J2.'5. The penalty which has been levied for the breaking of these power-looms is levied generally on the hundred ? — Generally on the houses and cottages, and property of every description in the hundred. 202t). The 1 ,800/. rate, for the restoration of the machinery destroyed, has been levied upon the hundred generally, has it not? — Not generally; the 1,800/. is the quota charged on the town of Blackburn. From what mischief has been done in tlie hundred of Blackburn, the remuneration has been collected from that hun- dred ; thv" adjoining hundreds pay only for the injury done within their own districts. 2027. Have any of the parishes raised any money under Mr. Sturgos Bourne's Act? — Yes ; to rebuild a poor-house in the parish of Levesley, the overseers have borrowed a few hundreds. i028. Your county is divided into townships? — Yes, 2029. And the poors rate is levied on the township? — Yes. 2030. Do you know the rental of the township in which you live?— No, I do not. 2031. Do you know the amount of the poor rates levied in that township.'— r No, 1 do not. 20;]2. Do you know how much in the pound is levied on the township for the poors rates?— No. 2033. Do you know whether the township is rated at rack-rent, or at two thirds, or at what proportion ? — At rack-rent, I have always understood. 337. Z 2 2034. Does fTMtmi FUUim, 39 Alarcb, 18-27. i8o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE I I'- I f'' IVilliam FitlJtn, Esq. ig Marrli, I Si?. 2034. Does the disposition to destroy the power-looms continue ? — No, I think that feeling has quite died away ; I think the weavers are very sensible of their error. In the Darwen district, they have been actually supplicating that the power-looms may be brought in, to give them employment, the very people who broke them before. 2035. You are not enabled to inform the Committee of any course which pre- sents itself for relieving the weavers of Blackburn from the incumbrance of this superabundant population ? — No ; if commerce should receive a great stimulus, that would be the best relief which could be uflbrded to the operative weavers. 2036. Of that you have no expectation?— No, I see no prospect of any thing inimediutf. 2037. Do you not conceive that the distress of the operatives in the parish of Blackburn arises from their receiving so small a r..inuneration for their labour ? — Decidedly so. 2038. Do you not conceive that arises from the supply of labour being greatly in abundance, as compared with the demand ? — Yes, certainly. 2039. Do you not conceive thattlie introduction of power- loom machinery, ne- cessarily displacing human liibour, Ihls tended to aggravate that effect? — It must have done that, to a certain degree ; there must have been an increased quantity of goods manufactured by the power-loom and hand-loom weaving together. 2040. Are you not, tliereforCr satisfied that only one of two alternatives can be expected to happen, to relieve the parish : the revival of commerce, under which the master manufacturers can nfl'ovd to give greater wages to the labourers, or the removal of some of the labourers, in consequence of which the condition of the remainder might be bettered ? — Yes, I think so. 2041. If, therefore, emigration coold be expected to be carried into effect satis- factorily to the parties emigrating, and securing their future prosperity, and they were consentient to such a proposal, are you not of opinion that, under the circum- stances you have described, of the little hopes among the master munulacturers of revival of trade to any such extent as to restore the proportions between supply and labour, the rate-payers would contribute towards the expenses of emigration, provided they found it was not too great a tax upon them r — I cannot at all tell how far the rate payers might be disposed to raise funds to promote emigration, because the whole community is impoverished, ^nd has suffered so severely from charitable contributions and aids in one way or another, receiving dimirished or no rents, that they are unable to afford that relief that they would otherwise have done under more favourable circumstances. 2042. Can you inform the Committee what the expense of maintaining through- out the year, a pauper and his wife and three children, would be in Blackburn r — No, I cannot ; I have not been on any select vestry, so as to know the details of those matters; I should state that the expense of maintaining the poor has been much mor«> moderate, from the circumstance of the overseer finding them employ- ment in \/ ving; they have paid for their sustenance, in a great measure, by their own labour. 2043. Notwithstanding that resource of finding employment for the poor by the overseer, is it not a fact that the rates of Blackburn are burthcned to the greatest extent in the maintenance of them? — Yes, certainly ; for, with every aid and every assistance, the rates are exceedingly heavy, and unless the charitable contributions which have been given are continued, 1 see no possibility of the poor existmg. 'JO44. Have you any means of knowing, either from your own observation or from the information of others, whether the stocks of manufactured goods, of different descriptions, in the hands of the purchasers in England and on the continent, are large or small ? — I should think small now, for there has been such a length of time for stocks abroad to have got exhausted, that I think they must have diminished and got very low. 204.'>. Af^er the extraordinary commercial diiliculties which have taken place, and the extraordinary depression of all sorts of commodities, do not you think that before we can expect a revival of demand, the persons from whom that demand is to arise must feel the pressure of a want of goods ? — Yes, I should think so. 2046. And that in ordinary circumstances they would order goods, and a quan- tity of goods much greater than under their present local circumstances they would be inclined to do? — Yes. 3047. Ha<» ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 181 2047. Has not a mistal e pretty generally been made on the subject of the price »t which cotton can be proiluced, both by the manufacturers of cotton and the purchasers of cotton goods? — 1 think the general observation of the purchasers is, "^ not that they have tliought the prices of cotton too high, but that they have no confidence in those prices being maintained ; whether those prices will be still further depressed we do not know, so many causes contribute to the depression of the ]jrices of cotton goods, the distress of manufacturers, and a variety of causes. 2048. Has not that mistake made the purchasers of cotton goods still more fcarfjl of laying in stocks than they would otherwise have been? — I do not know wheti'er that is a mistake, we do not know at what price cotton can be produced. 2041J. Would not the manufacturing of goods which is now going on in that district, nTid has been going on for some time, be sufficient for the employment of the people there, if it were not for the introduction of the power-loom? — 1 ought to explain that by saying, that the manufactory by the power-loom is a very distinct one from that which is carried on by hand-loom, and one that is quite essential to the consumption of the country and to the demand which comes from abroad ; I am afraid, from the inquiries which have been made, that there is a sort of invidious distinction drawn between the hand loom and the power-loom, or that which might appear so, by its being admitted that power-loom weaving has contributed to the evil, which it certainly has done, for there have been many more goods made by having the two instruments at work at the same time, both the power-loom and the liand-loom ; but the power-loom is so essential to the use of ihn country, that it will in time explode the hand loom almost entirely I apprehend. 20",o. You consider the distress at present existing to arise not from any de- ficient amount of trade for the employment of the people, but that that trade can now be carried on by a smaller number of hands ? — 1 consider that there is a con- siderable deficiency in the demand at this time, that it is what is generally termed a very unhealthy state of trade, there is no good demand existing. aoj I . You state that they have manufactured more goods lately than on the average of former times ? — Yes, they have. 20.')2. If those goods had been manufactured in the old way, without tlie power- loom, would not that state of trade have given employment to t!ie people ? — Most likely it would, for there must have been -y considerable addition made to the quantity manufactured by the power-looms, and if those were abstracted, ■.«o,m' which had been made by the hand loom might have been sufficient for the demi iul. 2(),"(3. You have stated that the landowners and persons of property in the dis- trict have not turned their attention uiucli to Emigration as a menus of relief ? — No, it has never been contemplated. 2054. Has it been contemplated by the men in distress? — No, I think not in the least. '20!',,''). You have no Emigration societies ?— No, I believe not. I have been absent for the last six or seven weeks. 2()'ir>. Do you think the labouring classes would be favourable to any plan of Emigration? — That is a circumstance I cannot speak to at all, because it is quite novel. 20,')7. You will not understand any question tliat may have been put to you by this Committee as in the slightest degree ex(>ressing an itlca prejudicial to tlie f)ower-ioom, but to ascertain the etlect of the |)Ower-loom on that part of the popu- ation which defiended upon tlie hand loom for their subsistence ! — I was only afraid that if those cpiestions went into Lancashire, it might appear as if the two were put into competition. 20,';8. It is pt;rfectly well known to the Committee, that if the power-loom were not employed in Lancashire, it would l)e employed somewhere elst, in consecjuence of which the labouring poor would be prejudiced instead of benefited ? — Certainly. 20,i<). Did you ever calculate the quantity of niajiual labour that is dispensed with by the power-loom ; how many huiuls would be ^e^qui^ed to do the work which a |)Ower-loom ertects ? — 1 am not able to answer shat question with cer- tainty, but I have always understood tiiat about one-third or oiKvCuurth of labour is saved ; there are a great number of peojijj employed about the power-looms in various preparations of tlie article before it comes into the loom, and so many meclianic.s are employed in making the marliiiury and kex:ping it iu order, that I do not imagine, from wiiat I have understood, that more than from one-third to one-fourth is saved by the use of ,'ower looms. . 337. Z J 2060, Do mUiam FieUtn, Eiq. 99 March, 1897. 183 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOUE SELECT COMMITTEE William Fielden, Esq. ■ fQ Murcli, ao6o. Do you think that whore there were loo persons employed before the power-loom was effected, it may be assumed that seventy-five are now employed ? — Yes, I think so. 2061. Hut some of the goods are of a different description ? — Yes, certainly. •2062. You include all the mechanics engaged in makinyr the power-loom, pre- paratory to the use of it? — Yes, a great deal of preparation for the work is neces* sary ; it goes through a great many stages to prepare it for the loom. 2063. Do you think that of the persons engaged in the manufacture of cotton, fifty persons arc em])loyed now in proportion to a hundreil that were employed formerly ?- -The power-loom is introduced in so small a degree into my district, that I cannot s|)cak to that. 2064. The general impression in your neighbourhood is, that it displaces about one-third of the number formerly employed ? — Yes, one-third or one-fourth. 2065. Are you of opinion that if the hand-loom weavers were removed, power- looms would increase in that neighbourhood ? — Yes. 2066. Do you not suppose that the mistake admitted to have been generally made as to the cost of the production of cotton, and the fear that the price may be further depressed, have operated so as to increase the disinclination of pur- chasers of cotton goods to lay in their usual stocks ? — 1 conceive tliat the purchasers of cotton goods are deterred from purthusing, from si fear of its coming lower ; without calculating what the expense of the cost, or the growth is, as I mentioned before, so many circumstances, such as those of scarcity of money, and distress arising from a variety of causes, bring down the prices, that the cost of production can never be calculated upon with certainty. 2067. How long is a man making one piece of calico by a hand loom ? — If the slightest description is spoken of, a man will weave about four or five pieces a week, but he must work very hard, and work over hovirs. 20(J8. What does a power-loom weave in the siimo period, of the same article ? — No comparison cni e drawn, unless the fabrics were tiio same ; a power-loom cannot compete with the iiand loom in goods of a thin description ; wlienevcr tlie wages descend for manual labour to about half a crown a piece, the hand loom must be employed ; they pay but fifteen pence a piece lor the weaving of this cloth by manual labour, and therefore no cloth of that description is inanutiutured by the power-loom ; they make a more substantial article in tiio power-loom. 2itiH}. Are the power-looms all of the same size ? — No, they vary very much, according to the width of the piece they are to produce ; different widths are required for different purposes. 2070. Do they, the looms, vary in price very much r- No, the simple loom ia worth about 10/. to ten guineas. 207 1 . Do not the power-looms produce a better article, of more uniform quality ? — Decidedly so, of •; cry superior fabric indeed. WiUiai.i I/ultoH, Esq. called in ; and Elxamined. JVilliam Ilulton, 2072. YOU reside in the immediate neighbourhood of Roltonr — I do ; I re- Lm|. side twelve miles west of Miinchester, four south of Bolton, and about ten from '^ ^ ' Chorley, in the very heart of the manufacturing districts. 2073. You have been lately in active correspondence with the London relief Committee ■ — 1 have, from the first moment of its commencement to the present time. 2074. In the course of your correspondence with them, have you had frequent opportunities of making yourself acquainted with the state of things in your neigh- bourhood? — Certainly; I have been regularly visiting, not leaving it to com- mittees ; but I have myself visited all the cottages within a large district around my own house. 2075. Can you give the Committee any idea of the extent to which distress ])vevails among the lower and middling classes in that district? — I have lived at Hulton ever since I came of age, and during tliat time I have never witnessed any thing at all equal to the present distress, by present, I mean the distress of last week, beciiuse I do think that it is increasing. 1 believe there is scarcely ono loom in my own immediate neigiiljourhood unemployed now, but tlie state of tlie families of the poor is certainly much more destitute than it was when the Com- mittee first extended the aid of its charitable fund, and when a very great number were unemployed ; the present distiess arises from several causes ; the bedding and cigithes ON EMIGRATfON FROM THE UNITED 'ilNGDOM : iSa;. 183 clothes of the poor are totally exhausted. I sliould mention that I live in the pariHh of Denn, which consists of ten townships, whicl? nre for all purposes aa difltinct 08 if they were sepiirate parishes, and in those several townships the employment of labour is (|uitc (liferent ; for instance, in the township in which I live it has been my object always to rcciuce the number of cottages, whenever they were vacant I haveijullcd them down; besides, the coal trade is the chief branch in which the people are employed, consequently in my own township we feel little or no distress. Over the hedge, which bounds my township from the township of West Houghton on the west side, and t' e township of Atherton on the south, they are almost wholly employed in hund-Ioom weaving, and it is almost in> credii)le to see the ditlerent state of comfort in the one township and of misery ia the other; the poor rates in West Hou. With a view of giving the Committee a general idea of the extent of the distress, can you mention any particular instances of which you have been yourself an eyewitness? — One or two I have veiiiured to report to the London Relief Committee, such as I had not conceived to exist in a civilized country ; there is one I have not reported, which was anterior to the last donation we received. Mrs. Hulton and mysoU', m vi- ;ing the ])oor, were asked by a person almost starving, to go into 'i ho«jN<\ '»o fehore found on one sido of the fire a very old man, apparently dying, on the other side a young man of about eighteen, with a child on his knee, whose motlRs had j\ist died and been burijd, and evidently both that voungman and (Jk- ehilil were suHiering from want ; of course our object was to relieve them, and wv were going away from that house, when tlie woman said, Sir, you have not seen all ; we went up stairs, and under some rags we found another young man, the widower, and on turning down the rags, which he was unable to remove himself, wc found another man who was dying, and who did die in the course of the day ; I have no doubt that family were actually starving at the time. 2077. THou^h that case may be an extreme one, are th^re very many families in that neighb*>urtiood who are on the very verge of famine, u" not sufTerinw actual famine ? — ^I am sure that both I and the Clergyman of West Houghton, who has been with me latterly, have made a very accurate calculation on that point in the last township we visited. West Houghton, consisting of rather more than five thousand !nhubi:ants; we found two thousand tive hundred totally destitute of bedding, and nearly so of clothes ; I am positive I am correct, when I say that six per cent are m a state such as that describtii, a state of famine, or that ap- prottchimj to it . it is from the papers 1 have prepared for the Committee, that I doduce that to be an accurate statem«ent. In another case of extreme distress, ther«{ were a widow and three children who had not tasted the meal and water, wluoh is the only thing almost they eat there, for eight and forty hours ; I found a young man of sixteen in such a state of exhaustioa^ I was obliged to send a cart with a litter to bring him ho«w, tmd he is nowr un !eT my own care, and we have hardly been able to sustain mm in life ; we found many families who have not made one meai in twenty-four hours. It appears very strange that, with resident magistrates aad overseers, such cases of distress could occur ; it is only vVhcrc 337. Z 4 there It'illiam HultOK, B9 March, 1837. I'i 184 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEEORE SELECT COMMITTEE Wdliom Hulton, there are hnnd-loom weavers, and in remote situations ; these do not occur in towns, E»q. but in country districts, wlierc tlic huml-ioom wt'av( rs are thickly spread ; tlic masses ' ' ' of people assembled tocctlu-r tend to create di.stresH, for they are not the persons •9 Mftffb, ^}|o belong; to the identieid townshii> in which they live, but many of them havin^f ' ''' settled from remote distances, finil a jjrcat dithculty in jrettinjj; relief from their townships, for their settlements are disputed, and there are many ways in which tliey are prevented pettinj,' the relief which they need utTorded to them. 2078. As you have mentioned the difference of distress in those parishes, inha- bited in a }^reut measure by hand-loom weavers and others, can you state the difference in the amount of the poor rates, how much per cent? — Not with sufficient accuracy. aoyq. Can you state the amount of the poor rates in your own township?— No, I cannot. ao8o. How is the poor rate paid in your district?— By a rate of the inhabitants upon themselves ; the rate payers meet, and ascertain what will be necessary for. the relief of the poor, and the county rates ; having; ascertained that, the book is laid before two magistrates, for their approbation and signature. 2081. Are your overseers over townships in the same manner as over parishes? — Yes. / 2082. Have you ever made any calculation, or can you at all give the Com- mittee an idea, of what is the amount necessary to support a family in a state wholly destitute, for a twelvemonth, taking the average to consist of five persons ? —Yes, I would state what guides myself and my brother magistrates, when wc are applied to for relief; we used to consider it right that the allowance per head should amount to three shillings a week, that they should make up for their maintenance fifteen shillings, and whatever was wanting to make up that we ordered the overseers to nuike up ; we consider that now too high to be levied, and we think they ought to have 2.». (id. per head, to umint'iin them in clothes and food ; that would be about 30/. per annum to maintain a family of five persons; in the money granted to the mother of illegitimate children, we always grant in common cases 1 .v. 6(1. a week. 208;}. Do you think there are many persons at present in your district, who are in this state of entire destitution and entire dependence on parish relief:— No, I think there are very few who are entirely so, iiccjiuse all the looms are ip em- ployment. 1 take the average wages which a really good weaver at a hand loom will obtain, to be about 8j. a week, but from that there are drawbacks, which I do not understand, not being conversant with trade ; the average of women, and children of fillcen or sixteen years old, I take to be about 3. v. per week. But on this part of the subject I am bound to slate one great grievance to which they are .subject, the trade has been subdivided into the hands of master manufacturers, who are men of no education, and little capital, the consecjuence is, that even this money which I state as the averagt!, is paid in what is termed shop stuff; I look upon that to be one of the greatest evils which exists in our country. 2084. That is illegal ? — Perfectly so; and we are most anxious, as magistrates, to convict where we can ; but such is the terror of the people in coming forward, that we cannot get at the proof of it. A custom prevails now very generally, of the little master miinufacturers building cottages appropriated to their weavers, and those weavers who are permitted to live in them, pay a much higher rent than they would to me, or any other country gentleman ; so that there is a great diminution of that which ap|iears as the payment for labour. 208,5. Do you think an advantage will result from the introduction generally of power-looms, that that will throw the cotton trade into the hands of persons possessing larger ca|iital, and therefore of more liberal habits and feelings ? — Yes, decidedly; it must recjuire a given capital to erect a power-loom manufactory of any size; but I should say, as far as my belief goes, there again those so employed in tJie .steam n)anufactures are obliged to |)urcha.se at a certain shop, and to live in a certain house; that prevails, I believe, in the towns generally, I know it does in liolton. 20}^(j. Is it your opinion that, according to the present .state of the trade, the populatioj! in your district is beyond all dispute redundant? — Yes, certainly, it is impossible to fitid employment for them. 2087. Is there any immediate probability, as far as you can judge, of such u chaiige in the proportion between labour and the demand for it, as shall make that population no longer redundant? — I am perlecfly unacquainted with trade, and ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KIN '^'^M: litj. 185 of such lall make ill trade, and and the probability of demand, but taking it that the demand dofit not increaie^ but remains aa at present, it is not possible they can be employed. ao88. Do you conceive that a great proportion of the people are now perma- nently and hopeleuly a burthen on tne poor rates i — Unquestionably ; and I consider, in my own neighbourhood, every yard of calico or muslin manuiactured has a gr> one townah^ and alaa m an adioining one, will frequently give such an interest and pot a man into such a situation in that parish where he has little property, as to ralieve the other parish where he has a greater one. 3105. Is h poastble, since Mr. Stnrgea Bourne's Act, to obtain a settleaaent in that way ? — No, the tenement must be in the same parish ; be cannot do it by eoW lagcs, unlem they let for 1 0/. a year. 3ioi. Have yoa any apfHvhension that in ease of those cottages being vacaal^ in consequence of the abstraction in which he is resident ; the overseer then sets his wits to work, and finds out to what township the person belongs, and the overseer of that pariidi to which he belongs, repays to the overseer of the parish where he is the expensa incurred. 2113. Is there no practical difficulty in obtaining the repayment of the expenses, or is there so much litigation you do not actaally imbrce ttie daim? — In a general way the expenses are recovered without much difficulty. 31 14. Do yoa often proceed practieally to remove the pauper to the place of his settlement?— Yes. 2115. Upon what township do the expenses of his removal fidl?— Upon the township removing. 31 16. Do not uw claims lirom penons who have no right to apply to the poor rate, constitute a very heavy burthen upon them in severe cases 01 distress ? — Yes, certainly ; there are constant claims, which no peisod living in that country can refuse. 2117. Are not the claims from persons who have no strict right to apply to the parish for relief, almost as burdiensome, in point of appeal to humanity, as the claims of those who have a right? — Quite as much in point of humanity; but in point of law, if the overseers appeal to the decision of the magistrate, he feels com- pelled to refiise rriief, except m a case of sickness or very great distress. , 2118. In the case of distribution of charitable funds, is there any distinction taken between diose who have lesal claims, smd dK>se who have not? — Not the riightcatin dw district in which I have acted, which contains ftom thirty to forty thousand inhabitants. 2119. Supposbg you could remove a portion of those who had a legal settle* ment m die parish, would not the burdicn lemain ina gieat sasas f e nnalleviated, unless you ciwild take measwas for the r em o val of diet portion who make an appeal to your charity, tf tfaajr cannot make a legal claim on the poor rtttes* — ^Theclaim on one's tkvmtia fhclnv would be the same^ bat the claim on the land would ttbt be the same ; for though dw P*rBon having titiiity would feel himself strongly urged to give to those hnving no cuim, the fermen would be rriieved by an abstraction of me population, and they wonld not ineor any thing material in tne shape of poor sales, by dMMeplaces being filled up 1^ strangers. 3t30. In case a small manu&cturer should let his cottages for 3/. a year to an Irishman when trade was depressed, though that family would not have a claiaa •poB the poor rates, wooM not the preseaoe of that family, when trade Was very ntneh depressed, be a bordien nearly as great as that of penons who were parishioners r — It would be a burthen on our feelings, and on the purse off diose 1^ had the means, but note burthen on die rate payers, as snch. 31 31. In providing for the ararali^ and general discipUne of the parish, would not they constitute aknost as sreat a burthen as the pieseace of persons having legal settlements? — ^They wowd have all the daims to assistance in education, and assistance in aiduNss frona the dispensaries and local cbariti^le insdtutioas, but it woidd not be thouglit necessary, nor wonld it be legd, for the parish officer to relieve then. 2132. Has not an Act recendy passed, enabling you to pass to Ireland any Irish pauper who may apply for relief ?— 4 am sorry to say that the expense incurred 337. A a 2 under Etq. 30 March, '1617. ;:.-« 188 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE nnder that Act, prevents its provisions from being carried into effect The expense incurred by the county of Lancaster last year, for simply removing Irish paupers from Liverpool to Dublin, was 4,000/. 3133. That was not an expense borne by any particular parish?— No, a county rate spread over the townships. 3 1 34. Were the cases of extreme distress you have stated to the Committee, cases of persons having a rieht on the parish, or not haying? — Of the cases of very severe distress which I liave mentioned, one was living on the township to which he belonged, the other was not a 1 35. Could such cases as those you have mentioned, of persons dving for wan^ have existed in the case of persons having a claim upon tnat parish; would not the magistrates interfere ?— Yes, I am quite sure that the magistrates, the persons in authority, and the more respectable part of the inhabitants, must have been unaware of the extent of distress which prevailed ; though in the constant habit of visiting the poor for years, I had no idea of such distress, till I visited under die London Committee. 3136. Do not you therefore consider those extreme cases to have been in a r'eat degree accidental ? — I do not think there are many quite parallel cases ; but think the people are everjr day getting into such a statfl of additional distress, from the total want of beddmg and clodies ; the whole t'>wnshib where hand-loom weaving prevails will be soon in the same state of distress. 1 have pointed out two strong cases, but if I thought that the patience of the Committee would allow it, out of the six in every hundred, I could detail nearly similar circumstances of woe. 3137. Supposing the parishioners were to be removed from the cottages built by Friendly Societies, and they were to be reinhabited by Irish, who might become chargeable upon the parishes if suffered to remain,do you not think that there would be a practice of informing those persons, that if they came there would not be any disposition to relieve them in case of distress ? — ^They would be discouraged in every way, 3128. Do you think that any disposition exists among the masters to keep up an excess of population to enable them to command cheap labour ? — I think not, because machinery is superseding the use of manual labour. 3139. Are you quite certain that the weavers in West Houghton are in the habit of taking apprentices? — Yes, certainly. 3130. What is the rate of agricultural wages in your township? — I do not know what the farmers give, but I give 14«. a week to every one of my men on a large farm ; I have not reduced them. 3131. Are there power-loom factories in West Houghton 7 — No, there are not 3133. If you had had power-loom manufactories in West Houghton, would they not have contributed in some degree to your relief? — I cannot answer that question. 3133. Do you not think that it would be practicable to make the persons pos- seasirs^ the houses to which those Irish or other strangers might flock, feel more sensibly, in times of adversity, the burthen, either from ciiarity or by levies, of sApporting them r^ I think that compelling the proprietors of cottage proper^ to pay the rates instead of the occupiers, would have that effect 3134. Have the overseers ot the poor any power whatever to prevent aqy weaver from taking an apprentice? — ^They have not 3135. If the master is unable to maintain his apprentice during the period of his apprenticeship, is not the parish obliged to maintain the apprentice as well as the master? — The parish is. 3136. Does not some part of the expense of removing Irish paupers fall upon the removing parish, beyond that expense which falls upon the county rate ?— Certainly. 3 1 37. Is there any other subject upon which you would wish to offer any remarks to the Committee ?— I should wish to express my very strong opinion, in con- tradistinction to that of the last witness, as to the effects of the contributions from the London Relief Committee : Nothing but the donations of that society could have saved us from famine ; they have induced the most delightful intercourse 'between the different ranks of the community; and the practical result has been, that in our populous district not on( instance^of riot or disturbance has occurred. ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 189 Sabbati, 31* die Martii, 18S7. ALEXANDER BARING, ESQUIRE, IN THE CHAIR. Mr. Wlliam Sudlow FltMhugh, called in ; and Examined. « 3138. WHAT is the nature of your duties at Liverpool, with respect to pai> sengers leaving the kingdom in considerable numbers on board of mercnant vessels? — I was appointed by the American Chamber of Commerce in Liverpool, in consequence of the frauds and impositions that had been practised upon pas- sengers for some years previous to the appointment ; it was in the spring of 1 823 when the appointment took place, and my business is to attend principally to steerage passengers going out from that port. 3139. Do you hold a permanent situation there r— I hold the appointment so long as it is considered that I act consistaitly with the nature of my engagement 3140. Do you receive a salary? — I receive a commission derived from the money paid by the passengers, it is paid b^ the shipowners. 2141. What is the amount of itr — It is five per cent commission upon the passage money. 3143. What power have you of enforcing that, is it by any Act of Parliament?— > No, it is hf contract with the merchants. 3143. Do the shipowners agree that you shall have five per cent upon the pass^ money?— The shipowners place the vessels in my hand to procure pas* sengers for ihem ; and when the passengers come down, I direct them to proper vessels, for which the shipowners pay me after that rate. 3144. How long have you been so occupied? — Since April 1833. 2145. Are you ag^nt for the ship otherwise, or merely as regards the passen- gers? — Only as it regards the passengers. 2146. By steerage passengers you mean the poorer class of emigrants? — ^Yes, I do. 2147. Have you any thing to do with the cabin passengers? — ^Yes, so far as making arrangements for them, and entering their names upon the muster roll. 2148. Has the number been considerable of those steerage passengers going out in any vessels to America?— Yes, very considerable. 2149. Does it continue to be so at the present time?— Yes, it continues, and seems to be increasing. 2150. To what parts dc they principally go? — Principally to the United States of America, chiefly to New YorK and Philadelphia, and some few to Boston. 2151. Have you any thing to do with those who go to our own colonies in America? — Yes ; but there are not many who have gone, in Uie last two or three years, to the British colonies. 3153. Have you not a good many timber ships arriving from those colonies at Liverpool? — A great many ships go from Liverpool to the ports of New Brunswick and Quebec. 3153. Do '^ ey not carry out passengers ? — They would do it if passengers ap« plied; but wi^few passengers go to Quebec from Liverpool. 2154. Do timber ships generally go out with light cargoes from Liverpool?— Many of them only in ballast, and some with only part cargoes. 2155. From your experience, do you think that some legal protection to the poorer class of passengers or emigrants is necessary, or do you think that such poor persons may be safely trusted to make their own engagements with masters of vessels bound to different parts of America, without any restrictions other than the self-interest of each party may naturally produce, without any specific law being made for the purpose? — I think some protection is absolutely ne- cessary. 3156. Have vou any facts to show that legislative protection is necessary, and if so, be pleased to state them? — ^There are some facts stated in the Report of the 337. A a 3 American Mr. W.S.Fittkugk. ' ' 31 March, 1837. igo MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. 31 March, 1897. A>nerican Chamber of Commerce in Liverpool, printed in the Appendix to the Report of the Committee on Emigration, in page 296. 2157. Have you any others to state ? — Cases of fraud and imposition are oc- curring in Liverpool every week upon the poorer classes of emigrants ; and during the last year, a cage of very gross imposition occurred, in which the merchants interfered, and prosecuted the parties to conviction for the fraud. I conceive some legal protection is necessaly, because it is out of the power of the emigrants, who are generally poor, cither to obtain the legal remedy themselves in conse- quence of their poverty, or to wait to obtain it at the quarter sessions, even if they had money, in consequence of it being necessary to proceed on their voyage. There has>a1so been placed in the hands of Mr. Horton, a letter from Liverpool, stbting t'.e fact I have just now mentioned, as to the imposition upon emigrants during the last year. 2158. Those impositions have been constantly practised, have they not? — Yes, constantly, and are now. 2159. Notwithstanding the law as it at present stands? — Yes; I conceive it affords no protection from those kinds of impositions, in consequence of their not having the ability to wait for the quaiter sessions, or to proceed to procure redress by law, from their poverty. 2160. So that the regulations by Act of Parliament have been found insuf- 6cient to give redress to those emigrants ^— I conceive wo. 2161. Does that arise from the law being neglected, or not being sufficient? — : Perhaps I should be understood better, if I explain the nature of the impositions nd frauds practised. The poorer class of emigrants who come down to a sear port are generally ignorant, they have probably never been in any sea-port before ; they do not know the nature of the vessels, or the kind of bargain they ought to make ; and unprincipled persons, engaged in trade, and there are many such en- gaged in that trade, find it their interest to induce those people to entrust their money in their hands under false representations, and instead of paying the owner of the ship for their passage, they send them on board in some instances without having paid the money they have previously received ; it was for that they were prosecuted during the last year. Another mode of imposition is, that they fre- quently obtain their money under the pretence that the ship is going to sea in two or three days, and keep them there three or four weeks, or more, for which tliey have no redress ; if they apply to the magistrates, the magistrates tell them that the parties have broken their contract, and that they must appeal to a jury at the quarter sessions. 2162. Do you think it possible by any legislation to provide for all the minute circumstances of oppression or grievance that may arise between the parties?— I think it possible to place within their power legal redress by such an Act as this, by referring all such matters to the decision of the magistrates, who shall have power to summon the parties before them ; the same power is given to the magis- trates, under similar circumstances, in other Acts 01 Pariiament ; I do not diidi any inconvenience would arise from it 2163. Have you read over the printed paper, entitled, A Bill to repeal certain parts of what has been called the Passengers Act, and the manuscript draft of another Bill for the same purpose? — I have. May I be allowed to state what I forgot to mention before ; there was a case occurred in London similar to what occurred last year in Liverpool, I dare say some evidence may be procured in London respecting it ; the passengers were engaged, the charterer, it appeared, had not paid the shipowner, and the parties were without any remedy. 2164. In those cases of fraud, the parties all had their redresn at common law, if they had been able to wait and prosecute their case ?"— Certainly. 2165. Do yon think that the last mentioned Bill, in manuscript, if passed into ^ law, would be sufficient to afford fair and adequate protection to the poorer class of emigrants?— I think not quite. 2 160. Will you state the nature of the legal protection which you deem neces- sarjr to be afforded to the poorer class of emigrants? — I have read over the manu- script Bill carefully, and if I may be permitted, I will read to the Committee die remarks I put down upon paper while the Bill was in my possession. In the manuscript Bill there appears to bdhio clause applying to vessels having carso on board and carrying passengers ; after the second clause, the third section of tne 6th ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KUfODOM: 18^7. 191 6th of George IV. c. 116. might with proprietv be inserted ; in that section, two tons is defined to be six feet by two feet and a half, and the whole height between decks. In the enumeration of provisions, in the third clause, potatoes ought to be included, as a description or food generally taken by emigrants ; two pounds, instead of one pound and • half per day is, in my opinion, the lowest quantity Uiat should be inserted in the Act. The qualifications of the surffeon or medical man, in the fourth clause, seem not to be sufficiently defined; if the qualifications are to be the same as those in the 6th George IV. c. 116. sec. is. it would be better to copy the phraseology of that Act, if otherwise, to state them with precision. There is no regulation respecting a medicine chest. The 6th clause i^pears to be ambiguous : if it is intended, that no vessel, although short of her full complement of passengers, shall be allowed to carry any part of her cargo, pro- visions, &c. between decks, it will be very oppressive in its operation, by pre- venting many vessels from taking passengers that have excellent accommodations, and the owners of which are willing to take a limited number only ; if it is intended to apply to such vessels only as have on board the iuU complement of one passenger to every two tons, it may easily be evaded, and will always be evaded by taking on board a few less than the full number ; the best regulation is that before men- tioned, namely, two tons of unoccupied space for each adult passenger. The regu- lations in the seventh clause, respecting the delivery of the counterpart of the passengers list to the Collectors of His Majesty's Customs abroad, can only apply to British ships ; British consuls in Foreign ports might be invested with similar powers. Poor emigrants are subject to many impositions, beside being landed at a port other thiui agreed upon, against which the 8th clause is in- tended to afiord pro^zction. Persons from the interior of the country seeking passages abroad, are generally entire strangers in the sea-ports ; they are deceived by interested and unprincipled personc who obtain possession 01 their money by false representations, both as to the destination of the vessels and periods of sailing ; in many instances (iunilies have been turned out of the vessels by the masters, after having paid their passage to the broker or agent, the latter having engaged a greater number of persons than the vessel was allowed to carry, with a view to his own pecuniaiy advantage. The Emigrants, being poor, are unable to obtain legal redress ; and being anxious to proceed on their voyage, would rather sacrifice the money, than wait the issue of a trial at the Quarter Sessions. It is therefore very desirable to refer all matters of this kind in dispute between tho masters of vessels, their brokers or agents, and passengers, to the decision of two Justices, who should be authorized and required to summon the parties on the complaint of either, and to determine the differences between diem without appeal. This dause is made to apply only to persons emigrating to His Majesty's possessions abroad ; the same frauds might be practised on persons emigrating in British or Foreign vessels to Foreign ports ; they require the same protection, which will be effectually given by the penal^of the bond (required by a subsequent clause) being enforced on the surety. The imprisonment of the master for one calendar month, appears too slight a punishment for an offence which UTiaer some circumstances may be of great magnitude. As to the 1 oth claurD, it appears to be too short a time to restrict the enforcement of the bond to eii^'at calendar months ; the 6th George IV. gives three years. The commence- mv'nt of the operation of the Act is not fixed ; this may cause great inconvenience to parties making^ arrangements immediately preceding the passing of the Act Thitre is nothing in this Act to prevent the relanding ofwater and provisions after the vessel has cleared out. See the loth sec. of 6th George IV. c. 116; and also the 1 ith sec. of the same Act, respecting airing the bedding and fumigatiiu^ the vessel ; and the 8th and 9th sections. 3167. Can you give this Committee any information as to the number of pas- sengers wM might annually be sent from Liverpool to the British provinces in North America, considering two tons of unoccupied space as being a &ir proportion fbr each adult passenger, on board vessels now||ctually engaged in trading to those provinces ? — There are about 25,000 tons 01 shipping employed between Liverpool and the port of Quebec, and to the ports of New Brunswick about 35,000 tons; the portion of those vessels unoccupicJ, would accommodate about 35,000, or from that to 30,000 persons ; there arrive at the port of Quebec annually, from 150 to 200,000 tons from Gvat Britain, a great proportion a( which is entirely unoccupied, so that I conceive there is sufficient accommodation for any number of emigrants that it might be thought proper to send out. 237. Aa 4 2 1 68. With Mr. W. 8. FUxkugL \, ^ J 3t Much, 1817. ( Mr. W.S.FUOygh. 31 Mtnli, i8t7. 199 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE a 168. With regard to the poorer emigrantB that come to Liverpool to go to the colonies, are they in the habit of applying to you to get a passage for them ? — Yes. 3169. Do thev come to you for advice where they should go to, or have they made up their minds before they come to you ? — They have generally made up ^eir uimds, but they frequently write to me from the country, knowing there is •urli an establishment at Liverpool. 3170. Can you give any reason why so few go to our own colonies ?— The majority of the emigration to Canada consists of the Irish, and for some years past the vessels have been chartered at Liverpool, and taken over to Ireland for the purpose of taking emigrants on board there, so that we have had fewer at Liverpool dian formerly. 3171. Have you read the printed paper, N*4, containing the answers of the Collectors of the Customs at Londonderry to certain questions relative to the legal protection of the poorer class of emigrants?— I have. 3173. How do you agree with the answers given by Mr. Hill ?— Generally, I agree with him. 3173. On what do you not agree with him ; is there any material circumstance in which yon do not agree wiu him? — I think, so far as I recollect the paper, chiefly with regard to the number of passe^-^girs a vessel might be allowed to take, I think he puts down a greater number than I think would be right 3174. To what extent have the manufacturing poor emigrated, and are you aware if the disposition to emigrate still exists among them ? — During the last two yean, the emigration from Liverpool to the United States of America has con- ■bted chieflv of manufacturers from the different parts of Lancashire and York- shire, and there still exists among those manufacturers a great disposition to emigrate ; there was in Liverpool, when I left there, severaTvessels filled almost entirely vrith manufacturers, many of whom had been engaged by parties em- barked in manufacturing in the United States, and their passages paid by them ; those were chiefly calico printers. 3 1 75. Do the weavers go in any number ? — A great many. 3176. But they are principally calico printers? — ^Yes, those persons who had been engaged by manuntcturers in America, and whose passages bad been paid. 3177. Are they paid for by American manufacturers? — Yes. 3178. They are gomg out in considerable numbers? — Yes, in considerable numbers. 3 1 79. What sum of money do they usually have with them upon &t average ? — In former years, the emigrants had frequenUy a considerable sum of money with them; I have known parties come down to Liverpool with 1,000/. or 1,300/.; in 1 823, and previous to that, they had large sums of money with them, bat in the last two years they have been very poor, and have scarcely had more Uian sufiicient to pay the passage money. With respect to the dispuaiiL-n on the part of the manufacturers to emigrate, I can lay before the Committee some letters I have received from them in the course of roy business ; I have selected theae» {producing a bundk of letters] ; these are entirely from manufacturers; the first is dated Blackburn, the i«)th of March, signed on behalf of 41 persons. 2180. Is that a letter ad^pessed to you ? — Yes, addressed to me in the course of my business ; it desires me to engage a passage for them. 2181. What answer did you make to that application ? — I told them they could have a vessel whenever they came. 21 82. At what rate of passage money ?— From four pounds ten to five pounds; that does not include provisions. 2183. What additional sum is required to take reasonable provision for their maintenance during the passage ? — A passenger from England, who goes out at his own expense, will usually take provisions amounting to from two to three pounds, but he seldom consumes all of it ; there are some who have not much money, they will only lay outHom twenty to thirty shillings. 2184. Do you think that suflicient for the poorer class of emigrants? — Yes» from 25 s. to 30 s. would be sufficient. 2185. What species of provisions would they procure? — Oatmeal, potatoes, molasses and bacon, or meat of some kind or other. 3 1 86 Those people who emigrate are many of them with families, or are they mostly single men ? — M?ny with families, perhaps most of them. , 3187. What yXi./w potatoes, )r are thejr 87. Whit N EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837 193 ' 2187. What would be the amount of freight Tor a faintly consisting of a man, his wife and three children, to any part of the United States ?— A man and his wife and three children, in Liverpool at the present time, could obtain a passage in a good ship, to a port in the United States, for from 12/. to 14/. 9188. Including provisions? — No, not including provisions ; the ships that go out to the United States are merchant vessels, carrying cargoes, and havQ limited accommodation for passengers ; but as they are not entirely laid out for it, their rate of passage is higher than if taken up entirely for passengers. 3189. Would not a ship going to Canada take emigrants at a considerably lower rate ? — During the course ofmy business I have engaged passages to Canada as low as a/. 3190. What would be the charge for a passage to New York? — Four pounds, or 4/. lOf. 3191. They could go for one half the price as respects freight, to the British colonies? — If I am to speak of the expense of taking passer ^ers to the British colonies, it should be with reference to a considerable number at a time, and taking a considerable number in one ship, so as to afford a full cargo ; I imagine it would not cost more than from thirty to forty shillings for the passage from Liverpool to Quebec. 2193. How much for provisions? — If the passengers were to find their own provisions, and had to lay in a stock for their own families separately, it would coat from twenty-five to thirty shillings a head for provisions. 3193. Would it be any less for any port of New Brunswick or Nova Scotia ? — I should not consider it advisable for tnem to lay in a less stock of provisions, and the rate of freight would not be different. 3194. Are you speaking ot adults, or families with children? — Of adults. 3195. What would be the char^ for a family, consisting of a man, his wife and three children, supposing the children to be under ten years' of age ? — I have spoken of passages where they have been engaged singly, or for families ; if it is desirable to ascertain what it would cost to take up a vessel that would accommo- date a certain number, I should say that twenty shillings per ton register, or less, ■o that a calculation will be easily made from that rate. 3196. Do you consider two tons register sufficient for three grown persons i — I think two tons of actual space for one grown person, that being six feet long by two and a half broad. 3197. Do you consider it practicable to induce the manufacturing poor to settle as agricultunsts in Canada r — I have in the course of my business conversed with several that have come to Liverpool, and when the matter has been explained to them, they have been desirous to go, and would willingly go there. 3198. Do you find that they have generally a dislike to the employment they bave been used to, and prefer agriculture ? — Most of the emigrants from the country towns, not the large manufacturing towns, such as Manchester, but from the neighbouring country towns where they have been employed in the hand-loom, are connected with some branches of agpriculture ; their families muy have small farms, and they have no objection to agricultural labour, 3199. Do they appear to you generally in a state of health and strength sufiScient for Uie labour of agriculture? — So far as mv experience goes, I should say they were fit for it ; those who have come down from the country have not appeared 80 strong, but that I attribute to what they have suffered. 3300. Is the disposition on the oart of the poor of Lancashire to emigrate to the United States, instead of die British colonies in America?— Yes, it is at present, iq consequence of many of them having friends settled there, and in consequence of the growdi of manufactures in the Northern States. 3301. When you say that ihe provisions for the passage would not exceed 35 «. or 30 1., is your opinion formed under the idea thafthe provisions of the Passengers Act would be enforced ? — No ; the provisions mentioned in the Act vyould cost about two pounds, but they are not fit for them, nor such as they are used to, nor such as have been generally taken. 3303. Is there any law regulating the treatment of passengers in American vessels? — ^There is a law of the United States regulating the number of passenger* in American vessels. 337. B b 2203. Does 31 Mireb, i8a7. Mr. If. Jii. Filihugk. 31 March, 1897. 194 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 3303. Doei that law contain any enactment aa to the species of proviiions to be provided? — My memory docs not enable me to recollect, but I thuik it does. 3304. Ever since you have been conversant with providing passages for persons wishing to emigrate, the present Passengers Act has been in force? — There was an Act previous to the mesent one, but the provisions were pretty similar. 3205. In point ot fact, ever since you nave been employed upon this duty, as to passengers, tne law has been the same as that now in force ? — Yes, except as to the number. 3306. Did you ever know any inconvenience arise to passengers from the ships in which they have gone? — I have seen ships over-crowded from want of room. 3307. It is not consistent with your knowle Jgc, that any positive evil has arisen from that circumstance? — The evil consists, in my opinion, m the inconvenience to which the passengers have been subject during the voyage, and of which they were not aware when uiey made the engagement. 3308. Have you ever heard any complaints upon the subject ? — Often. 3309. Have you known such evils to result since the Passengers Act? — Yes. 3310. And you think the Act, as it stands, is insufficient to prevent it? — It is chiefly where die Act has not been put in force. 3311. The alterations you have suggested are, to render the provisions of the Passengers Act, as it now stands, more specific? — There are some additional clauses in the manuscript Bill, on which ^y observations are made ; the manu- script Bill varies from the Act now in force considerably. 3313. Did more passengers go to the British colonies some years ago, than DOW ? — Yes, from Liverpool, some years ago ; but at present I dio not conceive there are on the whole fewer that go ; the alteration is, that they now go from Ireland instead of going from Liverpool ; vessels are chartered at Liverpool and taken over to Ireland, where they embark. 3313. D^ you happen to know, whether as many go from Scotland as went a fevf years ago? — My information does not extend to Scotland. 3314. At present the power of going as emigrants is pretW much limited to those who have got a little money; is it not; persons in the state 01 paupers have no means of going ? — No, they have not ; and I have letters here from many manufacturers requesting me to obtain service for them, and have their passage paid over. 3315. Have any proposals been made to you from gentlemen in the country, or landowners, stating their readiness to provide a fund to send out any of the poorer emigrants? — When I left Liverpool, there was an overseer of a parish in Kent engaging a passage for a number of poor people in his parish to go out to New York, and during the last two years the passages to the United States of a con- siderable number have been paid by parisnes. 3216. Do you think if an increased facility was given to obtain grants of land in the British settlements, that that would encourage emigration from any of the districts in England where the hand-loom weavers wish to remove ? — I am satisfied it would, provided it was connected with the means of getting out there, which at present diey do not posse^. 3217. Is there not a remedy now existing at common law, both here and on the other side of the Atlantic, wnether in the United States or the British colonies, for frauds committed by masters of vessels, or improper treatment of the passen- gers while on board ? — There is a remedy at common law ; but it is out of the reach of the passengers to take advantage of it, in consequence of their poverty and their inability to stop for the sessions ; I may state, tnat the prosecution last year cost the merchants of Liverpool 150/. ; that was of course out of the power of the passengers themselves to pay. 2318. In point of fact are the regulations of the present Passengers Act evur complied witn, or are they generally evaded ? — As to the numbers they tdce on board, the Act is complied with ; as to provisions, I do not thinE it is ; no notice is taken of the provisions put on board. 2219. Do you imagine that those suggestions which you offer, with regard tOi ihe doctor and the quantity of medicine, would be more likely to be complied with| th&n the existing regulation? — I am not. satisfied of the necessity for a doctor to the United States or the British possessions; there is a doctor required by the maauscript Bill. aaao. Upon ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1897. 195 than Upon aaao. Upon the whole, do you not think that the whole matter of protUiont mi^ht iiafely bo left to the prudence of the pMsengeri themselves? — I think not quite; I have been told, by the masters of vessels, of persons secreting themselves on board, and others commg on board without provisions. 339 1. Have you ever known any ce.«<^ of serious want or distress in any vessel since 1833, on its passage either to .^cw York, or to British America? — No, never. 3333. And yet during that time the regulations with regard to the quantity of provisions have been evaded? — With regard to the quality rather than aa to the quantity. 3333. Do you believe that the regulation as to quantity has been complied with? — As to a sufficient quantity it has been complied with, but not as to the kind, becauje the parties wno emigrate have not been in the habit of using such pro- visions as the Act requires to be put on board. 3334. You stated they used potatoes sometimes? — Generally. 3335. Are you not of opinion, that if the regulations of the Passengers Act were altered, that it would not be necessary to have one set of regulations for the passage to New York, and another to Quebec or Halifax ? — I should think one Bill might embody the regulations as to both; it is so in the manuscript Bill I have rend. 33'j6. How is It possible to carry into effect the regulations respecting the quan- tity of provisions, in the various small ports of the kingdom? — ^There are no ports where vessels clear out where there is not a collector of the customs, and it is the duty of his officers to see that the regulations of the Act are enforced. 2237. You state they are practically enforced in Liverpool, in consequence of your being appointed an agent to sec that they are enforced ? — I was not appointed for the purpose of enforcing the regulations of the Act of Parliament, but rather to secure, under the sanction of the merchants of Liverpool, an office where the emigrants might find fair dealing. 3338. In point of fact, you see that they are fairly dealt by i — It is my duty to do so, and I act under a cominittee of merchants. 2339. In the small ports of the kingdom, would the collector of the customs undertake thnt duty which you perform at Liverpool?— I imagine it would not be necessary in small ports 01 the kingdom, because there is not much emigration from them ; and the imposition is not generally upon the part of the captains, but on the part of persons who act as passenger brokers, who are under no sanction or control, and who, in Liverpool, generally speaking, are men of bad character. 3330. If the regulations for passages on board British vessels were vexatious or inconvenient, would not the effect bo to drive the passengers to American vessels ? —Certainly it would. 2231. You have stated the tonnage of vessels going out from Liverpool to the British colonies ; is not that tonnage so much greater than can possibly be wanted for the accommodation of any number of emigrants that may be going, that there can be no temptation on the part of shipowners, even without any Act of Par- liament, to overload their vessels with passengers? — The temptation rests here ; the captain of a vessel will not take a few passengers at a very low rate, and a broker will take up one vessel, although there may be ten in the port, and that vessel, in consequence of taking a lower rate of freight than the others, will be overcrowded, whilst the others go empty ; if there were proper regulations, each vessel would take her proportion. 3333. What is the usual time of vessels sailing from Liverpool to the British posaessions? — From the early part of April to September or October. 3233. If any alteration were made in the Passengers Act, would it not be veiy convenient that those provisions should be carried into effect at an early period?— It would be desirable certainly that it should be carried into effect early. 2334. Most of the ships sail in the month of May ?-— A great many sail in Jane and July. 2335. With regard to the manufacturers that you state go out in such nuinbers, do they carry out apy implements of their trade with them^They are not allowed by law to take out certun articles relating to the linen, cotton, silk, and woollen manufactures. 237. B b 2 3336. Are Mr. m S. Fua>igk. 31 Mwcb, 1817. fl 196 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTBB w Mr. 31 Mtrch, i8fl7. 933G. Are you inclined to think thejr talie tkem out clandeatindy to any eitentf —Not to any groat extent 3:137. From your situation, can you inform the Committee, whether there ii % considcmblo demand for operutive weavers emigratin|f, in the United Stateaf— Tlicre huM been a orreatcr demand than uxi«tii at present, in conaequence of the low price of manufactured ffooda in this country. I understand the manufactures in the United States are not prospering, but, notwithstaoding that, the weavers are ffoing out fast, and I have lotters, stating that they understand their prospect will be good in the United States. '^,238. Tlicre is at present a demand for an increue of population in the United States from this country ?— There appears to be so. 3339. Can you give the Committee nny letters that will show the dispoaition that exists among the manufacturers to emigrate ? — I can leave these letters, which I will hand in. I have selected these for that purpose, from about 150 letters I have received upon the same subject. [The Wit nets delivered in the/oUowing Letters.] " Sir, " March 19, 1837." " I HAVE to inform you, that cannot get ready to go to Portsmouth, so he will go in the same ship with the rest of his neighbours, to New York. Sir, you must do the best you can for them, and state the lowest that they can go for, as they are poor working people tliat is driven from their hoiues to seek a living in a foreign land, having collected their little remains to go with, and they will but have little to stop in Liverpool, so I would have you to be particular about the time of sailing. The first family is and wife and eight children ; four sons, the first is twenty years, the second eighteen, the third sixteen, the fourth thirteen and a half; four girls, the first eleven years, the second eight, the third six, the fourth, four ; that mdces ten in that family. The second family is widow herself and five sons ; one is twelve years old ; that makes six in that family. The third family is and wife, and three daughters and one son ; one daughter a woman, one eight years old, one twelve years, one six months ; son fifteen weeks old; that is six in tnat family. The fourth family, and wife, daughter seventeen years old, thirteen, eleven and six months, ten, eient, six, four, two and six months, six months ; that is eleven in that family. There is one man and his wife ; there is six men; that is all at present ; total forty- one. Sir, there is a woman of the name of from Darwen, she wants to know what ship will sail the next, as she wants to go to her husband; you know her husband, he sailed in the she sailed on the 3d of January. Now, Sir, you must let me know by the return of post, as she may be making ready, as she wishes to sail on the first of April, or as soon after as possible. ^ I remain " Yours, with the greatest respect, Directed to '* " " Mr. William S. Fitthugh, No. 11, Brook '8-square,Cooper's-row, Liverpool." " Sir, <« 14 May 1836." " Havino, through the got information of your benevolent inatita- tion, I shall with gratitude avail myself of the benefit it may afford in giving die necessary information respecting passages to the States. I am a weaver by trade, and has for some years back been engaged in the management of power-looms ; I have a wife and four children, the oldest eight years of age. My object is to go to the United States, but not knowing at what place it would be likely for to meet with immediate employ, I would be thankful for information on tfiat point. A friend of mine intends going with me, he is a dresser for power-looms; he has a wife and two children, the oldest four years of age; but I fear his means will not be sufficient to accomplish his desire ; he can raise but 8/. and it is not in my power to be of any service to him, as 14/. is all I can realize. You now see our situation ; if you think what I have stated will be sufficient to pay passage and secure provisions, with the necessary expenses of conveying our families to Liverpool, we will be very thankful if you would engage a passage for us to what- ever ON BMIUHATIUN FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSjj. 197 ever place you tliink moat likely to ftnd employment. We canaot bo ready looner tlian the auth of thii month, and to atop much lonser would be attcnacd with inconvenience. Pleaie let ui know if certificatot will hn required in pasting; thu Ciutook In doing theu thingi, you will very much oblige your humble Servant, II Directad " W. 8. Pitihugh, PoMenger* Office, 11, Drook't-iqttare, Cooper 's-row, Liverpool." " To the American Chanber of Commef««. ' " Gentleman, " May 39, 1836. "We would take it as a particular favour, if you would etate the rate of ponage for a man and his wife, with one child, without victual* ; what for a man and his wife, and five children, all under twelve yean of age, without victuals. — P. S. Please to state rate of passage without victuals, for one man, all to Boston. We are cotton spinners, and could wish to change our situation for that of n better, as we hear our business is improving very much in the United States of America. We remain. Sir, your vary bumble Servant, IV. f« Mr, hiihugk. 31 Mtroh, ) 11117. Directed to " Mr. W. S. Fitehunh, Cooper's-row, Liverpool." "Sir, " Adg. thaaStb, i8a6. * I HoFB you will excuse my boldness in taking the liberty in addressing these few lines to you, I, and others, wishing to inform you, that I and others wish to go to America, and we desire your assistance how to proceed, and to put us in the way. I now inform you of the place that we are intending to go, the name of the place is three miles from America ; this is our infctmation that we have obtained. The name of one of the employers is cotton manufacturer ; the establishment is cotton spinning, cotton weaving, and printing the same. I will take the management of spinning if I can get a situation, as being; in that occupation upwards of 24 v'iars, and has assisted in gaiting six new mills of cotton spinning. The next is my fHend cotton carder for 26 years, and has assisted in gaiting ten new cotton mills. The next is an engineer, and is qualified to take the manage- ment of an engine in all its branches, and is also a cool miner, and understand- ing its branches. I have four sons and two daughters, all qualified for work, three spinners, one n>achine maker. has two spinners, and two girls that work in the preparing part. has one son a joiner, and four daughters that work in the preparing part, that is, in tha card-room. I must say that self praise is no commendation, but I can assure you that they are as useftil as any three families that can be produced iu Lancashire. We have the means in our own hands of getting over, that is, paying our own passage ; we are all in work, and do not intend to remove until spring. We could wishf if possible, to eet information from the firm above mentioned, as we have a great desire to tread upon the land of freedom. The reason we wrote to you ii, by one of your cards being put into our hands ; we hope you will be honest, and please to give us every information you can, and inform us how soon we may obtain a letter from the firm. Sir, please to write by return of post. Direct for Lancashire. " Your most obedient and humble Servant, Directed to " Mr. W. S. Fitxhugh, No. 11, Brook's-square, Coopers-row, Livefpool." ever «37- Bbj Mr. w.s.maugh. t > 31 March, 1897. 198 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE " S', " May 30, 1826. " This is to inform you I am intending to ^o to either New York or Philadel- phia, and what will the passage be if it is paid down ? But I think I cannot raise the money before I land, because I have a quantity of goods to dispose of that I really cannot make my money of in this country. But further, I will hire myself for six or twelve months at my business ; or your captain may bind me first for that time if he will give a wages that will keep me and my wife, for there is no good to be done in this part. I have a few more friends will go, if you will take the hiring proposal. I would wish you to write by return of post, whether ycu will take the proposal of the before-mentioned, and after you have sent me an answer I will pay you for the same. When you write, direct to and you will oblige me, I could wish to sail about August or September vessel." Directed «' Mr. W. S. Fitzhugh, 11, Brook's-«quare, Coopers-row, Liverpool." " Sir, " 5th Nov. 1826. " Having seen one of your cards, whereby it appears you are in the habit of engaging emigrant passengers to America, and also affording them useful informa- tion, I have, in consequence of that, taken the liberty to desire you will have the goodness to state the lowest price for which you could engage a company of passengers either for Philadelphia or Baltimore (suppose ten in number ;) and also to ask, whether you can point out any establishment in the United States where they are likely to want a number of intelligent operatives or mechanics. In like manner, I beg you will inform me whether you will have a ship going out to either of the above places on or about the first day of January 1827. Directed to " W. S. Fitzhugh, Cooper's-row, Liverpool." Yours, &c. &c. &c. " Sir, " February 28th, 1827. " In consequence of the numero'js applications made at this oflSce by persons wishing to emigrate to the United States, as to the proper offices to apply at for information respecting freight and passage, we are disposed to recommend the as a desirable medium lor advertising ; nnd, from its extensive circulation in this and the adjoining counties, it is highly probable that much valuable information would be conveyed into those districts where the present commercial distress prevails in an eminent degree. All favours will be thankfully received, and promptly attended to. " I am, Sir, " Sir, Feb. 5th, 1827. " I BEG permission to say, that two competent managers, fitters-up and engine- builders, which two mechanics are thoroughly acquainted with all kinds and addi- tions of the steam engine, and a great many other machineries, such as weighiug- macliincs, millwrighting, corn-mill manufacturers, &c. ; and one of them is greatly acquainted with blast-furnaces, i. e. the managing of them ; the other with the art of mixing metals, commonly called a reener-out or a refinery man, i. e. one who works a refining fire. They are both competent managers and manufacturers of pumps, &c. In reality, they are two of the first-rate common mech&nics, and they can ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa;. 199 can produce characters, aa such, from their masters and from them for whom they have manufactured engines, &c. Sir, I solicit you, if you please, to write to me, saying whether the two men can have their passage paid for them previous to their ?)ing on board of ship, to go into any part of the North of America, but New ork is much desired, and the time when the next ship sails for New York. — Please to direct for Mr. IP . S. Filxkugi. 31 March, 1837. ' Si ir. "In consequence of a note from you, in a letter sent me from Liverpool by , I take the liberty to write this to you, and reauest by return of post, if possible, an answer to the following queries: ist. Wnen will the next vessel leave Liverpool for New York. 2d. W hat will be the lowest fare for a single man's passage there ; what for a man and his wife, and three children. 3d. What will be the expense of provisions for the voyage ; in short, with how small a sum could a single man be sure of being taken from Liverpool to New York for, and the same as to a man with a family of 3 or 4 children. An answer from you to these questions will much oblige Yours truly, • " Sir, " June 5th, 1826. " I SHALL thank you to send me correct information on the following heads of Emigration : ist. Is there any American vessel that will take passengers free, if they will be bound to serve for a limited time, for their passage, and how long, and what sort will suit best 2d. What will be the fare, per head, if a few engage to work what they call their passage over. 3d. What is the lowest, per head, to go in the steerage, having all things found by the captain, and what, if they pro- vision for themselves ; also, the time of sailing of any American vessel you think will suit the above questions. Please to direct as soon as possible by the post. Direct, " Sir, " June nth, i8j6. " I cuu LD wish you to send me a few lines concerning a passage to the United States of America, as I am very desirous of going to that country, if it be possible that I can get there, for I have some friends in the county of La Fayette Province, in Pensylvania, if I was once there ; therefore I could wish you to send me word how to proceed about going, and what you think is the lowest possible fare to Philadelphia or Baltimore, as I am a poor man and can get no work here, and about a few months since could command as much money as would have taken me there well, but now is reduced to the small sum of four pounds, and is working for meat. I hope you will excuse me for writing to you, but as .1 could wish to be ioformed on the subject, and seeing There are several more are desirous to go, but I am very desirous to go, so I hope you will send me word how to apply, and what you think of it, and write to me as sooo as you can. Yours, • " Sir, " May 3d, 1826. " WE have a young man and his wife but no. family, also a single young man, in this neighbourhood, desirous of going to New York or Boston, and they have desired me to write to you, to know vrhat is the most reasonable passage in the steerage; also, whether beds, or wh;xt furniture would be useful ; also, what it will cost to provide proper provisions, in short huw much it will cost them from the time they go into the ship till they are landed. You will, I dare say, remember my brother going out and taking some men last summer. Your answer to this immediately will oblige. We perceive some of the newspapers say there has been some disturbances and lives lost in it is all lies, every thing is very quiet, and the people will all defend their own mills, having pikes and fire-arms. '* Your obedient Servant, 1 437. Bb4 Mr. ir. S. Fitzhugh. 31 Mnrch, 18117. SOU MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE " Sir, " May 3d, 1 826. " WE write unto you, to inform us whether there is any printers wanted in Americu, or not ; and if there is any wanted, will you have the goodness to write a few lines unto us, and the money you take for one sail and victuals from Liver- pool to America ; and will you have the goodness to write the time your sliips is going off. And if you write a few lines, direct it to calico- printer, I forgot this, could you do such a thing as hire two; if vou could, write a few lines unto me as soon as you can make it convenient, and we will make you a visit." - - 2240. Have you received any account from any of the poorest persons, of those whom you have assisted to emigrate, of their present situation there? — I have seen letters from some of them to their friends, recommending them to come out to them ; a man will freouently go out and leave his family in England, having only money enough to take himself over, but by labouring there a year or a year andf a half he obtained sufficient to send for his family } that occurs every year ; and sometimes we have sixty or seventy individuals in a vessel, whose passages are paid in America by their friends, who have gone out without any property. 2241. Do you know the greatest quantity that went out last yearf' — I cannot state the ;iumber with 'any positive certainty; that emigrated from Liverpool might be from five to six thousand. 2242. Do the vessels that go out generally go full of steerage passengers? — Not full, they have only one for every two tons of actual space ; but generally, in consequence of having so many vessels going out, one for every five tons of re- gister burthen is taken ; there are so many vessels going out from Liverpool, that there is no necessity to overload them, and where they have been overloaded, it arises entirely from the law permitting a great number to go in one vessel, by which means it becomes the interest of the party to make exertions to get one vessel, and one only, full. 2243. Is the tendency of voluntary emigration to the United States more to the northern or southern districts? — Entirely to the northern; there are none go to the southward of Virginia, or Maryland. 2244. Nor to the northward of New York ? — Yes, some to Boston. Mr. nomas Adamt, called in ; and Examined ]^,, 2245. WHERE do you reside ?— At Mildenhall, in Suffolk. 7'*ufM« Jdam*. 2246. Will you State shortly the circumstance regarding the poor in your parish? — At the present moment, the number of persons paying rates are 368; those unable to pay, 315 ; paupers in the workhouse, 37 ; maintained out of the house, from the poor rates, 87; making a total of 124; — 110 employed in useless or un- necessary labour, 69 men and 41 boys. The amount of the poor rates in i822„ was 2,714'. 6*. id.; in 1823, 3,151/.; in 1824, 3,807/.; in 1825, 3,968/.; in 1826, 3,420/.; the assessment of the parish 7,000 /. ; the assessment at two-thirds of the rack-rent. There are upwards of 16,000 acres of land in the parish. The parish of Mildenhall is situated on the borders of a fen, ctdled the Bedford Level, and the labourers would not be inclined to emigrate, as many of them, during the months from May to November, are employed in the fen called Uie Bedford Level, some of them at a distance of from 40 to 60 miles from home, where their earnings are, in many instances, sufficient to support them through the year ; but as the parish officers are unable to ascertain what their earnings are, they come upon tnem immediately on their return home, and they are maintained at the expense of the parish. 2247. Have you had an opportunity of reading or understanding the Evidence given before this Committee, upon the subject of charging the parochial rates, to raise a fund for the purposes of emigration ?— I have.' 2248. Are you of opinion that the rate payers of Mildenhall would be disposed to avail themselves of any legislative measure, to charge themselves with a fund necesisary to defray the expenses to get rid of the redundant poor? — I think they would. 2249. Do you think they would be disposed to consent to pay for 10 years. 7/. los. piEir annum, to raise 60/. to get rid of a family consisting uf a man, woman, and three children? — I think they would. ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. aoi ,"1 Martis, 3* die ApriliSt 1827. The Lord Bishop of Chester, attending by permission of the House of Lords; Examined. 2250. YOUR Lordship is Chairman of the London Committee for the Relief of the Manufacturinfi^ Districts ? — I am not permanent chairman ; the rule is, that the member of the committee who is the first in attendance shall ake the chair ; I, living near the place where the committee meets, have very often the honour to fill the chair. 2251. Has the proposed plan of Emigration been taken into consideration by the London Relief Committee ? — It has. 2252. Has your Lordship, as chairman of the committee, any Resolutions to report to thin Committee, which took place on Saturday last ? — I have. After some discussion, the Committee for the Relief of the distressed Manufacturers have come to the following resolution, that the sum of 25,000/. be appropriated to pro- mote the object of emigration ; it being understood that twice that sum will be furnished from some other source, and that it is to be appropriated in such a man- ner, under the direction of the Emigration Committee, or of persons appointed by the proper authority, as may be satisfactory to the Relief Committee. 22,53. Are the Committee to understand that the grant of 25,000/. from the London Relief Committee is not to take place, except under the condition that 50,000/. are obtained from some other source? — I think 1 may answer to the Committee, that such is their feeling ; the question itself was not discussed, but that is the basis that was proceeded upon from the beginning. 2254. Is it ^^^ opinion of the London Committee as a body, that relief afforded by means of emigration is not only the most efiectual, but in point of fact the cheapest means of relief which can be given in the present state of distress ? — It is now decidedly the opinion of the committee, that it is both the cheapest and the most efiectual method. That it is the cheapest, may be proved by a very simple calculation ; that it is the most efiectual is matter of opinion, about which this Committee are much more competent to form their judgment than we are. We certainly are of that opinion, thinking that it is extremely advantageous to draw off the redundant population, as not only increasing the employment of those who remain, and raising their wages, but also as taking off' the materials of future distress. 2255. Are the Committee to understand from the reservation which your Lord- ship mentions as to the disposal of the money being satisfactory to the Relief Committee, that they are disposed to consider as satisfactory the expenditure of 60/. per family upon their location in the provinces, accoiding to tne plan pro- posea? — I understand quite so ; and any doubt which may exist as to the future dis- posal of the money voted by that committee, does not refer to the amount which IS to be expended upon the cost of emigration, but rather to the description of persons for whose advantage it is to be expended. I will explain in a few words what I mean : the London Committee for the Relief of the distressed Manufacturers have all along considered that enough has not been done in Scotland, by the inhabitants of that part of the United Empire, for the relief of their local distresses. We have had considerable difficulty not only in the first instance in obtaining con- tributions, but in obtaining information from Scotland as to the mode in which they have distributed our grants ; and it is only within the last week that we have had any such account of the distribution of our grants as can be deemed at all satisfactory. We have voted very large sums to Scotland, which we believe have been judiciously and efiectively distributed ; but we think we have not been treated ifith that confidence by the managers of charitable funds in Scotland which the extent of our liberality to them deserved. I do not speak of the local contributions in the respective districts, but of the central committee in Edinburgh. I do not wish to cast the least refiection on the exertions made in Lanarkshire and Renfrew- shire, which have been highly praiseworthy. Our receipts from {Scotland have been almost none ; and we are persuaded that the great mass of subscriptions which have been raised for the relief of the distressed manufacturers in this a37. C c country The Lord Bishop of Chtder. « ^ ' 3 April, 1837. if! I aoa MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE The Lord Bithopol Ckattr, ^ „ 1 3 April, 1897. country has been contributed under an impression, that it was to be chiefly, if not entirely, expended in relieving the pressure which bore so heavily upon our own manufacturing: districts, more properly so called. We have not indeed acted strictly and exclusively upon that principle in the distribution of our funds, but if in apportioning the sum which we have voted for the promotion of Emigration, it should appear to the pubUc that by far the greater portion of it has gone to assist in the emigration of weavers from Scotland, some dissatisfaction would perhaps be excited in the minds of those who contributed to the fund ; and that, I think, is one of the great difficulties which embarrass the present proceeding of the London Committee in conjunction with the Emigration Committee. I am not prepared to say that we must not brave that opinion of a part of the public, but I am quite persuaded that there would be some dissatisfaction if we made a very large grant for emigrants, the greater proportion of which was to go to Scotland. 2256. Is your Lordship aware that very extensive preparations have been made, and are in a great state of forwardness at this moment, for removing emigrants from Renfrewshire and Lanarkshire, which there is reason to believe have not taken place in the manufacturing districts of England ? — I have understood so only from a statement made by Mr. Stanley, on Saturday last, to the Relief Com- mittee. I do not mean to infer that we have given to Scotland more than Scotland wanted, or nearly so much ; but we have given more to Scotland, in proportion to the contributions from ScoUand, than we nave to the manufacturing districts here, in proportion to their contributions ; and I think it ought not to be forgotten, that the most distressed of the manufacturing districts in England have, to the last, con« tributed most liberally to our funds. 2257. Are there any means of ascertaining the amount of subscriptions to the London Relief Committee which have been obtained from the several districts of England and Scotland ? — Certainly. 2258. Has your Lordship any reason to believe that any of the contributions made by the Relief Committee have been >> the effect of producing any permanent relief, or that they have not been entirely appropriated hitherto to supply the means to the sufferer of living from day to day? — I do not apprehend that any measures which we have adopted can properly be called measures tending to the permanent relief of the poor ; but we have certainly endeavoured to combine the two objects, of present relief with present usefulness and labour ; and to that end, we have made considerable grants, for the purpose of enabling the local com- mittees, and latterly under the direction of Mr, M'Adam, to repair the roads of those districts where such repairs were much wanted. We have not devised (indeed I do not see how it is possible we should devise) any permanent employ- ment for the men, or point out any new channels into which their labour could he permanently diverted ; but we have been always desirous of doing something more than merely relieving the present wants of nature ; we have always wished, if possible, to teach the poor people that they must not expect eleemosynary relief, unless they were diposed to give, in return, such a proportion of their labour as could be reasonably asked for. 2259. Is your Lordship of opinion there has been a less disposition on the part of the richer classes in Scotland to contribute to the relief of the distressed persons in that country, than has existed, in a proportionate manner to their means, in this? — I really do not possess data sufficient to give an opinion, which would in- volve in some measure the character of that country ; I really would not give an opinion upon that subject ; but thus much I must say, that we did not in the out- set of our labours experience that cordiality on the part of the leading people of Scotland, which we thought we had a right to expect ; they came and asked for large sums, but they would not tell us what thev would do at home. It was a long time before the Edinburgh committee would hold free communication with us ; it was not until we made an express stipulation that they should not have any money from us, unless they gave us an account of the sums which they raised, and their expenditure at home, that we could establish any thing like communication with them. 2260. Your LordSiiip had opportunities, not only as connected with the London Relief Committee, but also in your personal visitation of your diocese, of making yourself well acquainted with the state x>f the lower classes within it ; perhaps your Lordship will be good enough to inform the Committee which of the manu- facturing ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 203 if not faoturing districts are comprised within the diocese of Chester ? — The whole of Lancashire and Cheshire, a part of the West Riding* of Yorkshire, the southern parts of Cumberland and Westmoreland, but I hardly know whether that is to be called a manufacturing district. 9361. In general terms, the Committee may understand the diocese of Chester comprises almost the whole of the northern English manufacturing districts ?— With the exception of the clothing district of Yorkshire, a small proportion of which only is within the diocese of Chester. 3362. In the visitations which your Lordship has made in your diocese, what has appeared to you to be the general state of the lower and middling classes at this moment ? — In the course of the last summer I hud occasion to go twice into what may perhaps be considered the most distressed part of the manufac- turing district at tliat time ; comprising Manchester, Bolton-in-the-Moors, New- churcn in Rossendale, the neighbourhood of Burnley, the town of Blackburn, and the adjacent country ; and, as far as was consistent with the official duties about which I was employed, I made it my particular business to inquire into the state of the manufacturing population, having previously been in correspondence with the clergy of the difi'erent parishes situated in the manufacturing districts, through whom, in conjunction with the more respectable inhabitants of the re- spective parishes, grants from the London Committee were in general transmitted to those districts. My first visit was in September, and my second about six weeks afterwards ; I did not find at that time the distress quite so great as it had been represented to be. I was told by the most intelligent manufacturers, that they had sometimes experienced a more intense distress, but none more general or more sudden. Amongst the people themselves I observed the greatest quietness and good order, a degree of contentedness, under pressure to which they were quite unused, which excited my admiration. Since that time, I have every reason to believe that while in some places the distress has been very considerably dimi- nished, in others it has increased in at least an equal proportion. I am satisfied, from inquiry, that there was no probability of a return, to any considerable extent, of employment to the hand-loom weavers ; yet I am also satisfied that the decay of that branch of trade will by no means be so sudden as has been apprehended. In the town of Bolton alone, I believe, there are not fewer than 8,000 nand- loom weavers, and the local committee of that place, who are remarkably intelligent and active, seemed utterly to despair of employment for the greater part cf that number, even should manufactures revive to a greater extent than is at present anticipated. Tliere are two distinct classes of hand-loom weavers in Lancashire ; those who arc living in the large towns, for instance in Dolton, and those in the country places amongst the hills, who are not only hand-loom weavers, but also little farmers, and ifiey are at this moment by far the mo!«t distressed class of persons in Lancashire, for it has been their custom to take small tracts of land at high rents, which the husband and his sons cultivate, while the woman and her daughters have two, three or four hand looms in the house, from the profits of which they have been accustomed to pay their rents ; and it is c bvious to remark, that at the same time that their loom-work fails them, their poor rates are increased, for the relief of other weavers who have no land, and so they are ruined in two directions. 2263. In the case of those hand-loom weavers who are also small farmers, upon what duration of lease do they generally hold, or are they tenants at will r — I believe they are generally tenants at will ; one gentleman told me he had a very considerable tract of land all at once thrown upon his hands in the neighbourhood of Blackburn. In some of those country places, particularly for instance Padiham, the poor rates during the last year increased to six-and-twenty shillings in the pound upon the rack-rent. 3264. Has your Lordship any means of estimating the proportion between those two classes of weavers, those wno are congregated in towns and those dispersed in Ae country ? — I should think, putting Manchester out of the question, that those hattd-loom weavers in the country are very nearly equal to those in the towns. 2265. What is the population from whom the poor rate is levied? — As far as we can collect from our returns, all but the poorest are assessed for the relief of the very poorest,* such as in the parish of oethnal Green, where the poor have been supporting the poor, till at last they are no longer able to go on, and now the parish is borrowing money. 937. C c 2 2266. Do The Lord BUhop of Chrter, 3 April, 1817. ^ n.' TlitLord Uiihop of Cktiter, V / 3 April, 1897. «w the state of the Irish population with respect to weaving ; I fancy there are a good many who can weave. 2289. During the period that high wages prevailed in these districts, did the Irish population interfere to any considerable extent with the people of the count y ? — I believe to a considerable extent with respect to one town (which how- ever I do not mention as an instance of a town connected with the cotton trade) I mean the town of Macclesfield ; a great number of Irish settled there ; and we have information from Macclesfield, that within the last year, in consequence of the ' distress, the populatiu^ ^as been diminished to the amount of 6,000, of course by removals. 2290 Were those Irish labourers generally employed in the manufactures? — Almost entirely in the manufactures. 3391. Does not your Lordship anticipate that the revival of demand would occasion the erection of power-loom manufactories, both in town and country, which would employ many who are now only hand-loom weavers ? — I have no doubt of that ; but it would be a work of time. 3393. Is your Lordship aware that the people of Macclesfield abont two yean ago put public advertisements into the newspapers, that they wanted men? — Yes, they advertised for 5,00c men; but I do not think that the increase of population took place in consequence of thai advertisement, it has been a process of some years. 2393. Your Lordship never heard of any other case of an advertisement of that nature ? — No. 2294. Knowing the increased facilities of communication between Ireland and England, has your Lordsitip a doubt that the influx of Irish population has an im<> mediate tendency to reduce th^ rate of wages in England to the level of the remu- neration of labour in Ireland ? — kt has a tendency, and a direct tendency, although perhaps ON EMIGRATION pkoM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1897. ao7 Iterhaps not immediate ; time is necessarily ruquircd for the process. The Iriih abourers do not all at once find their way into the factories, nor arc they able all at once to set up looms ; but that the tendency cxisK, and that it has produced very great effects in Lancashire, I am persuaded. 2395. Does not Irish labour always come into competition with agricultural labour in Lancashire and the western parts? — I should wink not to any great ex> tent, except in harvest; the great body of Irish labourers who come over in harvest time do not remain in Lancashire or Cheshire, but come on to other part» of the kingdom , they seem rather to prefer the longest tour, for they get the most money by it. 3396. Has your Lordship had an opportunity of seeing who are the labourers employed generally in making the new roads in Lancashire ? — That is a matter to which I did not feel myself cnlled upon to pay any attention till lately. Lately, the labourers on the roads have been cliiefly Lancashire persons, and they have been f>aid with the monty sent from our Committee ; we have however had application! i-om some places for grants to enable them to relieve persons who have no claim for parochial relief, and we have understood that in many cases they were Irish- men. In the case of Burnley, we had a distinct application for a considerable sum of money, to employ upon the roads persons who had no claim upon the pariah. I should apprehend there are from sixty to seventy thousand Irish in the county of Lancaster. 3297. Has your Lordship turned your attentit to the subject of Emigration' in general, as connected with the condition of the labouring poor in this Kingdom P — I cannot say that I have ; it is not within the sphere of my pursuits ; it has been only the late distresses in Lancashire which have led mc to give any attention to it. I formerly acted for ten years as a magistrate in the agricultural districts, where this question was not forced upon me ; but another subject has been forced upon me since I have become acquainted with the manufacturing districts, namely, the enormous disproportion between the wages of the manufacturing and agriciu- tural classes ; ano it has always occurred to me, that any measure that should tend to something like .in equalization of the two, must be beneficial to the country at large. But with respect to the manufacturing districts, I am strongly of opinion that emigration is the most effectual if not the only remedy for the present stat« of things. •2x()9. Cou.'d your Lordship state to the Committee the great disproportion that appears to you to exist between the two rates of wages ?— Ves. In the agricul- tural districts towards the east of England, for instance, Sufiblk, Norfolk, Essex, Cambridgeshire, and in the midland parts Buckinghamshire, it is considered that if a roan and his wife and four children, for instance, six in number, can earn ten shillings a week, he has no claim upon the parish for assistance ; whereas in the manufacturing districts cases have been brought under the notice of the Relief Committee, as cases of urgent distress, where the same number of persons have been receiving twelve shillings a week. 3399. As a general position, you would think that the rate of wages through the manufacturing districts is much better than the rate of wages through the agri-! cultural districts ? — That it was much better. 3300. How should a system of emigration, which related more particularly to the manufacturing population, tend to produce an equalization ? — At present the wages of the weavers are much below the wages of the agricultural districts, and should be raised, but not to their former standard. I consider that the manufac- turing labourer does, in point of fact, require larger wages than the agricultural labourer, to a certain extent ; he is more constantly employed in an unhealUiy, irksome employment, and requires bodily comforts of a different description from those which are wanted by the agricultural labourer. 330 1 . Does your Lordship think that the condition of the labouring poor in some parts of this country is such as to require the serious attention of the legis* laturer— Certainly. 3302. The Committee may consider that no system of emigration, in your Lord- ship's view, would be eflectual, that did not go to the root of the evil in Ireland ? — Not permanently effectual. 2303. At the same time your Lordship is quite disposed to concur in the ex- penditure which is proposed to be made, for the purpose of removing the tern/- potary and pressing distress at *he present moment? — Provided that it be consi- 237. C c 4 dcred TlMlMd Di(hopofCAM«(f. V . ' 3 April, i9fl7. " n' I ao8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ThaLord BUiop6f CWrr. V , ^ I 3 April, 1817. dered an n firnt experiment, upon the imuc of which shall depend tlic cucstion of establishing n system uf emigration ; and in that point of view, I consider it would be a cheap experiment. 2;}04. Docs your Lordship think that in the event of some of those weavers being taken to the Cnnndiis, it would be desirable to endeavour by some Icgisluiive enactment to mnkc the nianufiicturrrs, whose interest it is immediately to fill up their places for the purpose of lowering wiiges, responsible to the parish, that they •hall not bring again an undue population into those parishes? — That is aqucstion which I am unable to answer; but it appears to me so direct an interference with the principles of free trade, that I hanlly know how it is to be done. Maccles- fleld, I believe, is the only case in which there has been a direct public application for labourers tiom other quarters. 3305. Your Lordship stated, that you thought the manufacturers had not the same interest as the rest of the parish in preventing the distress, to prevent which « sum of money has been voted ? — Yes. 3306. Does not your Lordship think it would be fair and equitable to prevent their feeling it their interest to bring about a similar state of things again f — I cannot speak to that. 3307. Is your I/irdship aware whether the cottages occupied by this class, half farmers and half weavers, are rated to the owners or the occupiers ? — ^To the occupiers certainly. 3308. Docs your Lordship apprehend that a system of rating the owners of those cottages, rather than the occupiers, would be a material check upon the increase of cottages of thi.s description?— I think it would be a very beneficial measure, in almost every imaginable case, that the owner should be rated. 3301). Does your Lordship apprehend the average rate of wages for a series of {ears has been much larger in the manufacturing than the agricultural districts? — apprehend so. 3310. Your Lordship has alluded to the condition of persons in the manufac- turing and agricultural districts, and you seem to give very much the preference to the average condition of the people in the agricultural districts ? — No ; I said it would be desirable, if possible, there should be something like an average of the whole ; I did not mean to express an opinion as to the suiliciency of the wages in the agricnltural districts. 3311. Has, in those districts, the system of saving banks or friendly societies been instituted to any considerable extent, so as to equalize the fery flurtuating state of wages in manufacturing districts? — Saving banks have been instituted in the largertownsof the manufacturing districts with good effect; and they have proved, in tlic late season of distress, a pretty exact criterion of the distress itself, and of the expectations of the people as to the return of tr«'*> ; but they are not, nor can tht.y well be equally advantageous to the more remote olaces, for those places in the hills are so far fr'^in the large towns, and the peopl ; in general have so litth information on those subjects, that I am afraid they I .ave not derived much benefit from them. In Manchester and Macclesfield the saving baak has answered the purposes for which it was intended, so far as it has gone. 3312. Do not you consider those institutions as purticularly useful in districts where the wages and labour are subject to great fluctuations ? — Undoubtedly most useful there ; and they would be more useful, if the persons for whose bent fit they are intended, availed themselves to the full extent of the advantage ; but u.ifortu- nately, where the wages are subject to the greatest fluctuations, the people ate least disposed to take advantage of such institutions. 2313. Are not the master manufacturers generally a class of persons caring but littlb for the comforts and condition of the labourers ? — I cannot say so much as that ; the more respectable of the master manufacturers are, I think, an extremely humane body of men ; I have seen, in many cases, the greatest interest evinced in the welfare, both bodily and spiritual, of their workmen. There is a class of manufacturers who care for nothing, but how they may make the greatest sum of money in the least time. No two descriptions of men can be more different than those whom I should call the respectable manufacturers, and the sort of middling class, between them and the operative weavers. 2314. Is not the least respectable class a very considernbV, proportion of the whole ? — Very considerable in point of numbers. ' 3315% Iq times of good demand for manufactures in the districts to which you allude. TEE ON EMIGRATlOlfTROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 209 icition of it would 5 weavers c^isliitivc to fill up that they I qucMtion ncc with Maccles- pplication 1 not the ;nt which prevent again? — this class, ?— To the owners of upon the beneficial 1. 1 series of istricta ? — manufac- preference ; I said it Age of the ! wages in f societies Huctuating stitutcd in they have ress itself, y are not, for those neral have }t derived baak has n districts tedly most entnt they it u.ifortu- le nie least caring but o much as extremely evinced in a class of est sum of erent than middling tion of the which you allude. allude, is there nnt always a great influx of Irish into those districts? — I can hardly ■ay how that is ; I have understood it to be so. 3316. During the late period of distress, in visiting those districts, has your Lordship found that persons, through that country, have been in the greatest statu of destitution ? — It was impossible, under the circumstances of my visit to those districts, that I could make that minute inquiry into the coses of individual dis* tress, which would enable me to give a distinct answer to that question : At the time I visited Lancashire, I should say there were scarcely any persons in a state of extreme destitution ; shortly afterwards, from some cause which I have never been able quite to discover, there was a sudden and very great increase of distress, though we were informed at the time, there was more work than there had been for the preceding ten months ; the fact seems to be, that during that ten months they had borne up as well as they could, but that their means of converting their little property into money were then utterly exhausted, and they fell into a state of extreme aestitution. J317. What were the instances in which vour Lordship observed the distress to be most Herious ? — The neij/hbourhood of Burnley, the district called Fendle Forest, and the townships of Blackburn. 3318. Has your Lordship any information to communicate to the Committee, which may he of use to them in the inquiry they are prosecuting? — My inquiries probably have been directed to a dilTerent object than that which the Committee nave in view ; my. inquiries were at that time principally directed to the moral condition of the people, which I confess appeared to mn to be considerably better than I Imd always been told that it was ; the hand-loom weavers are a very orderly and, generally speaking, a well-disposed body of men ; they manifest a great readiness to listen to good a;lvicc, and, from some personal inquiries amongst the poor, I am led to hope that u ."onsidcrable moral improvement has taken place in many of thorn, in consequence o\ their suflerings. I may add to a former remark which I made, the disproportion between the wages paid in manufacturing and agricultural districts will uppeur still greater, if we take into account the different prices of some of the necessaries of life in the respective districts ; for instance, fuel, which is as important to the health of the labouring population as the quality 6t their food, is not more than one-third or one-fourth of the price in the manu- facturing districts which it costi in the eastern counties ; clothing, generally •peaking, not more than two thirds. The only article in which their expenses are necessarily greater, is that of house-rent ; a cottage, which in the agricultural districts would let for not more than three pounds a year, in the manufacturing districts fetches eight pounds. 2319. Does your Lordship think that this low rate of wages in the agricultural districts is referable to the population being disproportionate to the demand for labour? — No; I think it chiefly attributable to the operation of the Poor Laws. Under the present administration of the Poor Laws, even a deficient population may become burthcnsome to the parish as well as a redundant, although of course not to the same extent 2330. How could a deficient population, that is to say, a population not sufficient for the demand for labour, be otherwise than sufficiently remunerated to keep them off the parish ? — Because there will always be a certain number of persons wno will be glad to find some pretence for not working, and will prefer having seven shillings without work, to having ten shillings with work ; and while there is a parish fund to be depended on, the farmers will systematically pay low wages, and have the deficiency made up out of the rates, to which others contribute as well a* themselves ; this, at least, is according to my own experience. 2321. Vour Lordship first knew the manufacturing district of Lancashire in a season of prosperity ? — Rather at the termination of it. 2323. Were you struck with any difference in the expenses and habits of the manufacturing labourer at that time, as contracted with the habits of the agricultural labourer at uat time ? — My knowledge of that period is, properly speaking, his- torical, for I did not go into the diocese of Chester until the year 1 824, and I had not much opportunity of inquiring into the habits of the people until 1825, when the distress was beginning ; but from the accounts I have received, I should say that the habits of ue manufacturing classes are those of improvidence, compared with the agricultural. 237. D d William TliaLord Bithop ol CKtittr, c ., J .1 April, 1847. i no MINUTES OF EVIDENCE DEFORR REr.ECT COMMITTRF. ri//M M H. Ihiil, 3 April, lit;. William Ilenlty Iltfctt, Kaq. called in ; and Examined. 8333. YOU are Socrutury of tli« Commlttfc for lh« Rtlief of diatrcawd Manu- facturers? — I am. 3334 Will ^ou atate your opinion an to the extent of the diatreu amonsr the manufacturera in the county of Renfrew and county of Lanark in Scotland } — There haa existed very coniiderable diatresa in both thoae places, particularly in Paialey. flS<'5- Have you any details to offer to the Committee upon that subject? — I have no documents with mv, but I can from the Committee room furnish the information, if it is desired. 3336. Do you believe it to have been very exceuive ?— The manufacturing claues have suffered very excessively from the loas of trade. 9337. Have there been, in your judgment, any u[reat exertions in Glasffow and Painley, amonitthe better part of the inhabitants there, for the relief of those dia> tresses r — At Glasgow ana Paisley the exertions have been very great by indivi* duals ; subscriptions by the gentlemen of the country, and other l(x»l efforts, have been made in aid of the distressed. 3338. Have yo« observed, in the course of the correspondence which you have carried on with various individuals in Lancashire, in Yorkshire, and in Scotland, any particular circumstances relative to hand-loom weaving, which have induced you to form any opinion as to the declining state of that branch of manufacture ? — The hand-looa weavers in ueneral are at this moment out of employment, not being aUe to compete with ue power-loom. 9339. Will you explain to the Committee your opinions as to hand-loom weaving, what part of it, in your judgment, must inevitably decline, and what part of it, in your judgment, will probably continue for some time longer, until in snort the power-loom machines are much improved ? — The hand-loom weavers of catkoet are those that are thrown oul of employment at this .noment, those who fabricate muslins and fancy goods still continue to get employment. 3330. Did you ever hear that thoae individuals, being hand-loom weavers, who nanuikcture what is called figured work, are not in much danger of losing their occupations ? — ^They are not at this moment. 3331. Even when that figured work is upon somewhat coarse goods? — It is very difficult for the power-loom to imitate the figured work, therefore it will remain in the hands of the hand-loom weavers for some time to come. 3333. It is then that description of hand-loom weavers who are employed in {>lain calicoes who may expect to have their labour extinguished by the power- 00m ? — Yes, those are precisely the persons. 3333. Is it your opinion that it would be impossible for the power-loom weavers to do the figured work ? — At present they have not attempted to do it ; as to what improvements may take place, it is impossible to say. 3334. Do not you understand that great improvements in the construction of power-looms have taken place in the sUk manufacture, and that in the silk manu- factures they are enabled to weavt: figured goods? — Yes, 1 do ; but it has not yet been applied, I believe, to muslins. 3335. Have you any information that you can give to the Committee as to the «umbcr of persons out of employment in Lancashire? — I can furnish the exact number from documents we have at the Manufacturers Relief Committee, the ■umber out of enploy in any part of the district. 3336. When you say, persons out of employment, ai« they not generally peraons hftving some empknrmeBt, bat not suftcieot employment tojprovide means of sub- sistence ? — I should perhaps deaignatc ss applicants for relief, rather, than persoM •ut of employment There aw very few weavers out of employment abcolutely at this moment, but the wages that tbiey derive are not adequate to their support. 3337. I* BOt ^*t inadequacy of their wages owing to there being a gvealer Mimber than there is woric for? —Certainly. 3338. Can yon state, upon the average of the whole pMulation, the deficiency •f emfrfoymont? — If we take, for instance, the hundred of Blackburn, where I be- lieve Ae tiand-loom weavers are principally living, eat of a population of 150,000, the return sent to us was, that there were about 90,000 last year staled to be cut of employnnt ; l8i(i: Dec. May- 1817: Feb. - Not. and Dec i8s6. ON EMIGRATION FROM THK UNITED KINGDOM; 18J7. jii emplnyninnt ; thoii! prrioiia have aincu fuund employ nii'iit, generally, but at wry luw waKCM. 3339. Acconlinif to thu lati'«t iiccrxint yoti have, what i:i your belief a% to the flcficii'iu'y ol'lhn ijniployiiieiit?— The deficiciu'y ia rather more in the wan;fa than the employment ; the weavera are culled upon to work from twelve to fourteen houra a day, the average uarninga per week of the individuala would bo from 4«. to ,'ill, (>(/. 3340. What evidence have you of auch an immenae numlicr aa p.'l.oon havmg been out of employment at the period you apeiik to r — Wf have the rrturna Irom «ach of the pariahea ; I have before me a Return of the hundred of Hluckhurn, made laat year, in which there are the number of inhabitant* in want of em- ployment. j'341. When you aav "out of employment," explain to the Committee what you mean ? — At the period the report waa made, they had not the mcana of rmplovment. a34i. Do you mean that they have partial employment? — It may be aaid thnt they had employment one or two daya in the week. The Return to the committee atated, firat, the " population of the pariah," and then the " peraona out of em- ployment." [7%c Wilnets delivered in Abitraclt nf the Population Hetunn from the diitretsed dittrictt ; which were read, aiui are at follow ;] tt'iUim II. HfHl, ^V 3 April, luceu •e?- LANCASHIRE. t, not l>*M CUIaaiiit \ PLACE. Populatloa. UESCRIPTtON. toullyoulorwwk, lli:.MAUK!l. •loom oT Ibtan. / PtruchUI. "1 Stnuigtri. t part abort l8aC: 1 1 sn of e who Dec- Dlackbum • • •^ ( Over Darwen • \ Lower Darwan 1, who Accrington \ I their Altham and Clayton ilillington Ilaldenton 1 -It ia Great Harwood i A it will Ecchwliill Mellor • - ■ Mitton ■ 73.C00 weaving and ipinning 7,64a 3.040 Tbtf M une dit ition of the \ HuadndofBlMkburn. tyed in Hoghton Town Ribcheaterand Alston \ jower- reavera Walton.le-dale Aighton Bailey Raougrave i . what Riahton - Churcbkirk • 1 ' ction of Oawaldwittle - • 6,000 * . • . >.4oo ^ manu- Novembar Haaliogden r 1 not yet aud Newcburcb 1 Oaccnber. Coupe Leach - Ninhallhey - B to the Hail Carr ■ ■ • le exact tee, the Muibury Hanheadi 4».505 D» . 4,040 i Lower Bootha- penoM ofa«ib- Aug. ai. Bacup - ' - EdenBeld • • Hilcombe • Littleboro' V i i penoM lutely at port. Maj- Newchurch Raaiei\d«le Rochdale ... 8,55'7 I3r«53 half woollen, half cotton fweavera of cotton & ) [ woollen ■ •/ notni 310400 •ny. f Work done in cotton, but t^not in woollen. Diitreta much abated. gfcater 1897: Feb. - Burr Heywood ■ • MiddUeloa • - Coadderton 10,583 D» . - jOO m ■ Work, but at low wagot. efickncy itC Ibth Not. and Dec. i8<6. «o;879 . 1,180 140 150,000, Ainaworth K out of \ oynmt; D>r Kovember November and December Norember May November and December PLACE. Oldham St John Lees - Todiiiorden Shaw Siddleworth Colne I'endlp Wiswell Read Waddington Waddington • Grindleton Newchurch AVhalley Bolton - Symondtton Heyhouies Padiham lligham - Burnley Habergbameavet Clivigcr - Worston Buercliffe Chorley including Standiah • Clayton • Brotherton Wrightington - Crotton - Howick - Longton - Penwortham Whittle - Hutton - Heapy - Whcelton Hoole Farineton Cuerden - Layiand • Be'ckeriall Bolton-le-Moon, and itil 18 Townihi|M - -J PopuUlion. 35,000 15,800 i5,oi>o 1 9,000 > > 5.530 7.497 9.376 } 38.007 Dean and Townahipt - Tildesley - Little Hulton Bedford • A*iley - Atherton Leigh Pennington Woraley Eeole* 50,000 ir!,9i6 33,67a DESCRIPTION. weavers of cotton and woollen. - D* . d* weaving and tplnn'ng cotton, weaving and ipinning - D* - d* weavers and spinners of cotton. weaving and spinning of cotton. d* - 8,000 33.330 Claiiouiti totalljr out of work. Parochial. Strangers. REMARKS. • one-half out of work, besides paupers. Very distressed. 3iia 3,300, of whom one-half are Irish. 643 33 none 50 few 100 300 •1 77 less than last year, weaving, 40 per cent, spinning, no d*. [* Figurtt net rterivtd.] greatly distressed. W. H. Hyttt, Secretary. ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. aij YOUKSHIRE. n*tt of Return. l8a6: Dec •>. 13. 1, June 83. No?. 25- 38. Decs. N«T. 95. •3. 1817: Feb. Nor. Dec. Jan. 11. Nor. 14. 99- Feb. 10. PLACE. AUerthorpe Mradford - Baniiley Batlcy Baildon and Guiieley Uirstal Barkialand - Cro«8 Stone Ctimberworth Cleckheaton Darton Denbv DewDDurv - Dodworth - Earli Heaton Elland Heptonstall Huddersfield Golcar Scamcnden Slaithwaite Farnley Tyai Henley Almondbury Kirkheaton - Daliton Lapton Longwood - Kirklmrton Shepley SheUv Woofdale • ThurUton - Lockwood • Linthwaite - Linley High Hovland - Swaine a* - Hepperholme Haworth Heaton Yeadon Heckmondwicke • Keighley - Knareaboro' Li* enedge • Midgley Norland Oiaett Pennistone • Soirerby Stainland • Southouram Skelmantliorp Stanley Thornton • Warley Wonboro' • Populmion. DESCRIHllON. 4,864 40,000 8,300 3.3>7 9.163 .5,840 10,176 1,130 4,000 «.340 ».>43 7.500 1,300 ,3,400 (3,ooo 4.550 1,5,000 9,606 855 8,871 goo 4,000 5.679 9,186 3,889 9.729 '.949 S.153 1,000 >.3a9 3.500 889 3,800 a,i»7 9,040 368 738 3>9^3 4,66S 1,300 a.78.9 9,700 7,000 4,560 8,400 1,800 8,000 8,000 3,000 5,100 700 9,700 4.850 5,000 1,000 Weaveri D" D" D° D* D» D« W D" D" D» U» D" D" D» D' D» D* D" D" D" D" D" D" D' D* D" D* D* D" D" D° If !>• D» D» D» D* n» D* D* D» D* D' D» D* D» D* V D« D* D* D" W D* D« D' Cliiuiinu lotallj out of work. PiracUil. Stnngert. 143 330 306 689 50 300 45 35 ilio 5" 97 i8n 600 67 910 900 197 75 55» 539 545 30<> 140 >9< 193 5« no 303 83 370 137 63 55 630 39 400 >53 150 RSMABES. 31 40 7 50 73 66 80 60 _46 »4 50 971 355 sou 80 163 99 3» 116 95 95 300 >33 84 >7 3U 70 59 50 900 1 hmiliei / 169 58 300 67 430 16 «7 8q 98 »4 135 98 300 — 500 338 87B :i «37- Dd 3 IV. H. Hjfttt, Secretary. •^s^.-tuft.. -swoB^ii^iev-,' «14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE WILTSHIRE. Due PL.\CE. fopulation. UESCRIFI'ION. CUimint^ loliilly out uf »*rk. REMARKS. of Retara. Pirochlal. Slrungert, 1816: Noy. 93. Bradford - 15,000 Weavers 1,638 900 Horningham i,3«o D* - - - 140 50 Hilperton . - . >.033 D* - . - •78 63 No». 17. Melluham ... 5,000 !>• . . . 300 — Feb. 34. Maiden Bradley - 640 D* - - - 104 90 MOT.- North Bradley - u,473 D* - - 693 138 13. Trowbridge 11,000 D" . - - - . • •{ A great rumber employed on roadi. Thii place is in great distress. W. H. Hyett, Secretary. GLOUCESTERSHIRE. Dute I'LACK. Population. UESCRFPTION. Claiiuuitt totally out ul work. RULVRKS. of Return. Parochial. 1 Strangers. 1896: Dec. - Bisley ... 6,000 weavers of broad cloth 3,000 Dursley nnd townships 7.500 D* and cord making 50 50 Kingswood, Wilts 1,500 woollen spinning 300 Painswick - about 5,000 weaving cloth - 370 Stroud 8,011 dyeing andfulling cloth cannot be ascertained. but very coaslderablt. Uley .... 3,000 broad-cloth weaving 910 1897 : Feb. - Wuottun-undcr-cdge . Nortli Nibicy . ."1 Cam - . .\ Coaly - .J C,ooo 4,860 D« - D- 500 1,396 150 W. H. Iljfttt, Secretary. SCOTLAND. Uate of Rtturu. PLACE. Population. Out ofEa.pl.,. REMARKS. 1837: - Mar. 29. Edinburgh •38,335 1,600 adults, at the time the report was made last year. The condltioa of the poor is now much worse. 99. I'ai^ley ... 7'>534 835 families on the Qiarity fund, 3iit March 1897. T Jan. 9. Perth . 19,068 1,600 Feb, 9. Pollockshaws . 3,000 197 adiilti. Mar. 17. Kilsyth - 4,96a 146 1 [)•. W. H. riyrtL Sfcrelsry. ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 115 KMAKKS. 7 coofideniblt. 3343. Is it not your opinion that although the distress must undoubtedly have been very great, yet as the application to the London Committee was alway.. for relief, the persons applying, like all persons applying for relief, have a natural dis* position rather to overstate their case ? — In some instances, perhaps, but generally speaking, it was so well guarded, that the returns called for may be relief on ; they were made by local committees which were established in different parts of the country, and it was required that the statements should be vouched for by the chairman of the committee or clergyman of the parish, and also a neighbouring magistrate, who roust in some measure have been enabled to judge of the accuracy of the statements. 2344. Have not the landed proprietors of the country an interest in relieving their poor rates, by obtaining as much relief as possible from London ?-~-I do not think, generally speaking, those documents have been from the landed proprietors, ihey emanated from the clergy and from the master manufacturers, from tne local committees, generally speaking. 2345. Have not the Committee at the London Tavern been particularly jealous with regard to observations and applications made by overseers and church- wardens ? — Always ; and further inquiries, as to accuracy of the returns made by overseers, have been always instituted before relief was granted. 2346. Have they not generally viewed them with great suspicion? — They have. 2347. Do you recollect whetbsr on all occasions, whenever the Bishop of Chester was present, the committee have not applied to him to know the character of the clergyman of the distressed place, who signed any return of the distress ? — Yes. 2348. Have they not regulated their conduct by his Lordship's answers? — In a great measure. 2349. Have you a statement of the employed and unemployed in the different townships ? — I have delivered in the Statements required. 2350. Will you have the goodness to state generally the proceedings of the Manufacturers Relief Committee, of the present state of distress, as it appears before them, and your own views upon the subject ? — The course proceeded in by the Committee, which was formed after the public meeting in May 1 826, was, in the first instance, to make liberal remittances to the suffering districts ; and having provided against the extremity, they formed local committees in every place applying for aid ; to these bodies sets of queries as to the amount of population, resources, poor rates, and actual condition, were sent, the accuracy of the return being vouched for by a neighbouring magistrate ; the rate of aid afterwards fur- nished was regulated by these documents, which in districts where the distress continued, were renewed from time to time, so that the existing state of the place was always before the committee. When the danger of starvation was removed, the Committee, aware of the ill effects produced by gratuitous assistance, directed that ouNdoor labour should be expected from all able-bodied persons applying for relief. This measure had the double effect, of preventing parties who could obtain other employment from participating in the charity fund, and also of re- moving a number of weavers from the loom altogether, leaving to those that remained a greater portion of employment. Wherever any party or undertaking was benefited by the work performed by the individuals under the care of the committee, a contribution according to circumstances was expected ; in general the arrangement was two-thirds of the amount expended in manual labour, to be furnished by such party or undertaking, A one-third by the committee. At the commencement of the winter, distributions were made of articles of clothing and bedding, (many persons having sold or pawned tlieirs at the pressure of the moment,) and in some cases where the distress was most severe, provisions were again supplied ; as the rigour of the season abated, this gratuitous assistance was discontinued; but grants for labour, down to the present moment, have been periodically made to the parts of the country still suffering under distress. The districts that continue to claim the attention of the Manufacturers Relief Com- mittee are. Paisley and some other parts of Scotland, (where however the con- dition of the people is much improved ;) Pendle Forest, and the hundred of Blackburn generally; some other parts of Lancashire; the district round Hudders- field, the neighbourhood of Leeds, and some other parts of Yorkshire ; portions of Wiltshire, Uloucetter, and Somersetshire ; also the Staffordshire Potter^'^s. la milium H.Hyrtt, Esq. April, 1837. \ If the woollen distrieli tlM distreu 237. has rather mcreued of late Dd 4 and th*i fancy wals'tont 2x6 MINUTES or gMmBMtl^ .ftaEQBLE. SELECT mMM[l'Xft& WmamH.Hyttt, I * .1 April, 1817. waistcoat trade, about Huddersfield, has not made the improvement which it was expected the spring; would produce. These are but temporary bars, that will even- tually be removed, and employment will again ensue ; but to the hand-loom weavers of Lancashire, Paisley, and some other placej, nolapse of time can pos- sibly bring back their usual occupations ; the rate of wages they must be confined to, in order to compete with the power-looms, will not suflice for their proper maintenance ; indeed the only cause of their finding employment at present is, that either the poor rate or the funds of the Relief Committee contribute towards their support, and in fact pay a portion of the wages of the master manufacturer, which circumstance induces him to give out work that otherwise would not at this period be wrought, or would be performed by the power-loom, which pro- duces cloth of rather a superior quality. In this district but scanty aid can now be derived from the poor rate, the lay payers having themselves become generally paupers, and the dimmution of the funds of the committee will gradually put an end to that resource ; the condition of the hand-loom weavers must therefore be very deplorable, unless some means are devised for procuring them such occupa- tion as may enable them to earn a subsistence. It appears that a portion of the calico weavers may, by a small alteration of the loom, turn to weaving muslins and fancy goods ; but this can only be to a small extent ; knA they must, by this means, either reduce the wages, or dispossess some of the persons at present occu- pied in this branch of manufacture. The case of these persons, therefore, claims the attention and sympathy of the country. 2351. Do you not consider the surplus population arising from that portion of labour which is deprived of work by the introduction of power-looms, that uurt for which there is no chance of any improvement hereafter? — Certainly ; those hand-loom weavers have very little chance of ever finding employment again, especially those who are resident in the distant townships; tliose in large towns will in the course of time find partial work. 1 found on inquiry a sort of loom had been lately invented, by which hand-weavers can in some measure com- pete with the power-loom. These looms possess some little improvement on the common loom ; but they do not exist to any great extent, nor can they, I believe, compete successfully with the power-loom. 2352. Within how short a time do you think the Manufacturers Relief Com-' mittee, by thoir local correspondence, could obtain a list of persons, from the manufacturing districts of Lancashire, willing to engage in an nnmediate plan of emigration? — Within a very short period; some of our local committees will answer instantly, others will take more time ; within a fortnight or three weeks, I should think. •2353. Were you not sent into Lancashire by the Committee? — Yes, at three periods. 2354. Did you travel about that country for the purpose of obtaining informa- tion? — Yes. 2355. Were you in the company of gentlemen likely to give you good in- formation? — Frequently in the company of persons able to give information on the subjects interesting to the Committee. 2356. Who accompanied you ? — Mr. M'Adam, in the last tour I made through the country. 2357- How long were you in the country ? — Three weeks or more, the first time; about the same period the second, and a month making the last tour. 2358. Did not you obtain a great deal of information, which you afterwards gave to the Committee? — Yes, on my return I made reports regularly to the Committee. 2359. These were the basis, in a degree, for future proceedings of the Com- mittee ? — In a great measure. 2360. The committees which you acted with in the country, in co-operation with the London Committee, have done their duty very well ?- They have, very efficiently. 2361. Would they not be the best means through which either any plan of emigration, or any plan of relief, could be devised? — They would obtain thu desired information for us, I have no doubt, instantly. 2362. The Committee in London have had every reason to be satisfied with their co-operation ? — Perfectly so. , . 2363. Did you, when you were in the country, ever bear any anxiety expressed upon the sut^ect pf em,igratioa ?-rNot in the country ; but since I returned from . ■■-♦ ... . . ■ Y'"^^^ Ui& ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 217 ch it was vill even- and-lootn i can pos- connned iir proper •resent is, e towards lufacturer, lid not at irhich pro- I can now ! generally lly put an erciore be ;h occupa- ion of the ig muslins St, by this •sent occu- orc, claims portion of , that ui\rt niy ; those lent again, arge towns irt of loom isure com- lent on the , I believe, elief Com-' I, from the tale plan of littees will e weeks, I s, at three Ig iuforma- 1 good in- tion on the de through first time; afterwards arly to the the Com- •operation have, very Lny plan of Itht) desired lisfied with expressed iraed 'from the the country we have had communications ; within a few days I had bad an inter* view with a gentleman, who stated there were fifty families m his neighbourhood, who were wishing for the means of emigrating. ' 3364. Did you not find in the townships you visited, intelligent men who had formed themselves into committees, for the purpose of investigating the wants ot the poor and providing relief? — I met witn many, intelligent and active, most anxious to renaer their assistance. 2365. Do you not conceive that the parishes, merely from calculation of their interests, would be disposed to contribute towards afibrding the means of emigra tion to many of the poor ? — I should think it very likely that they would, for we have made terms with parishes where we employed persons on the road, by which they readily agreed to furnish a certain quota of the men's wages in aid ot our fund. 2366. Can you state to the Committee what an unemployed family, a man, his wife, and three children, costs a parish in Lancashire ? — Eighteen pence per head per week, one with the other, is a usual allowance. 2367. If the sanction of Parliament w e obtained for tlie removal of twelve or thirteen hundred families from different districts to which you have alluded, do you conceive the committees in the country connected with the Relief Committee would have any difficulty in making the necessary selection? — I think the cubject is not sufficiently known in the country ; the local committees would hr^ve the means of making the wishes of this Committee known, and of selecting proper persons. 2368. Do you wish to be understood, that emigration is not a subject at present sufficiently considered, to enable the London Committee to act? — My answer referred to the information possessed at present by the persons in the country. ' 2369. Though the subject may not be sufficiently understood to induce all those who, under a better understanding, might be ready to go, still do you tlrink that the London Committee would have any difficulty in selecting a sufficient number of objects upon whom the money might be expended ? — I think not, through the channel I have named ; the hand-loom weavers are still in the greatest distreiis; and I presume there would be very little difficulty in getting a sufficient number of persons to go from certain places, without loss of time. I would name distant parishes as the proper places, rather than large towns, where the population, if removed, are in some degree helplesii; but in country hamlets they are partly inured to agricultural labour, the weavers being also occupiers of land. 2370. What do you think would be the eflect upon the present state of that part of the country, oV removing twelve or thirteen hqndred families? — By lessen- ing the competition, there would be more labour for those who remain, and better wages would of course be obtained ; the condition of both would be very con- siderably bettered, as those removed would be also provided for. The parishes would also benefit by this measure, as the poor rates would also be materially diminished. 237 1 . Do you apprehend, in the present state of employment of those districts, such a removal would tend to restore a sufficiency of employment to the persons who remain?— It would ameliorate the condition of many distressed manu- facturers. 2372. You speak from your knowledge of the present state of the district 1— I do. 2373. Upon your estimate of eighteen pence a head, a family of five persons out of employment would cost the parish somewhere about twenty pounds a year ; do not you think that any parish would pay one year's expense of such a family, to get rid of them altogether ? — It would certainly be their interest to do so. 2374. Would certainly be their interest to get rid of an incumbrance at one yeaf s purchase ? — I apprehend they would see such an advantage. 2375. Have you reason to believe that there were a great number of Irish settled in the counties of Lanark and Renfrewshire ? — -I cannot answer that question pre- cisely ; the number of Irish in the manufacturing districts of England 1 could give, but not in Scotland ; we have not a return from Scotland, of tiie number of Irish settled there. 2376. You have been in some of the manufacturing districts of England? — Yes, but not in Scotland. 2377. Does it occur to you that there might be any means of preventing such an accumulation of population in that district? — Removing them seems to be the roost obvious remedy. . 937. E e 2378. Is milium u.h^tii, 3 April, 1837. i i WilHtm H. Hytit, 3 Apiil, 1897. fspt. Ihniy W. Sivll, K.N. S18 MINUTES OF EVIUENCK BEKOHE iJELECT COMMITTER 2378. Iff not the expenie of removal to great sometimes, as to make it rather ^ matter of expediency to endeavour to support them i — A question as to the expe- diency of removing the Irish from some parts of Lancashire, came before the Rib- lief Committee ; the first intention of the landowners was to get rid of the super- abundant population, but in consequence of the expense incurred, and the distress which would be consequent upon that measure, we made a stipulation that they should be relieved on the spot, and their removal not attempted for the present. 3379. In consequence of this wish, they were not removed ? — ^They were not ; we wished them to remain, in the hope that the trade would revive, and, the manufacturers being still on the spot, business might commence without loss of time. 3380. Do you think it would be an easy matter to select proper persons from those wishing to emigrate ; would not the parishes be desirous of getting rid of those least capable of supporting themselves by their own labour ?— -X am not suf- ficiently informed on the subject, but that appears likely to be the wish they would form. Captain Henry William Scott, R. N. called in : and Examined. 2381. YOU are in the Royal Navy ?— I am. 2382. Have you resided any time in Nova Scotia? — About seven or eight years. 2383. In what situation were you there ? — I was living there as a private gentle- man since the peace, but occasionally employed as a surveyor ; I was Assistant Surveyor General of the province, a part of the time. 2384. You assisted in the surveying a part of the crown lands in Nova Scotia ?~ I did. 2385. Can you state to the Committee whether there is at present any con- siderable quantity of crown lands in Nova Scotia, (it for settlements? — I cannot state the quantity, but I can state pretty confidently that there is a large quantity in Nova Scotia. I have not been there these three years ; but about three or four years ago, I surveyed through an extensive district of land, which I should imagine can be settled to a very great extent. 2386. At what distance from the sea ? — Not far from the sea, on the sea coast. 2387. With easy communications ? — Yes. 23S8. And good land ? — Ye.s, very good land. 2389. What do you mean by a large district, to what extent? — An hundred miles in length, by probably ten or twelve in width in one direction, and two in another perhaps. 2390. For what purposes were they surveyed by government? — I was employed by Lord Dalhousie, and afterwards Sir James Kemp, who is Governor now, in dividing the provinces into counties and townships; and in doing that I was also commanded to lay out divitiions, for the purpose of locating emigrants upon those lands. 2391. Have any portion of those lands been since located? — Yes, one very large settlement has been formed, called the Dalhousie Settlement, which has turned out very well indeed. 2392. Upon what terms were they located ? — They had to furnish money for paying for the grants. They furnished their own funds. 2393. They were voluntary emigrants ?— Yes. 2394. From Scotland, or from England ? — Principally from Scotland. There was nothing furnished to them upon those settlements, they came out with a little property. 2395. Were they charged with any fees upon the land ? — Yes. 2396. Can you state to what amount? — For an hundred acres, I think the fees in the cheapest way, (for there were two wa^s of doing it,) if a man took out his grant for an hundred acres, he paid possibly more than joining with others perhaps in the usual way ; five or six pounds would be the expense of obtaining a grant of an hundred acres of land ; there is the surveying of it, together with the fees of office. 2397. Is there any reservation of quit-rent?— No, none in Nova Scotia. 2398. As soon as the land was surveyed the grant was given in fee-simple r — Yes, liable to escheat on the noncompliance wiui the terms of the grant, which are, Cat in a given time certain proportions of the whole must be cultivated. 2399. What • " * M» oil EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 219 the Bca iSgg. What number of acres did each settler get ?— Generally about an hundred; I think it has been lessened of late years. They used to give .soo acres, ten or twelve years ago. 2400. Are they settled close to each other?— There is generally an intermission, not at alt close, that was never studied, it was neVer made a matter of study ; a road was generally made in the first instance on a line of country, and roads led otf on each side of it. 2401 . Woald it not very much add to the comfort and convenience of the settlers, that their settlements should be contiguous, that there should not be an inter* mission of tTre settlements? — Their abodes were generally contiguous; the hundred acres of the one abutted on the other. 340a. When were those settlements made ? — About seven or eight years ago. 2403. in what condition are the individuals now? — Report speaks fairly ; I have not been to see them myself at those settlements. 2404. You have not heard any complaints of their situation ? — No. 240^. Supposing they had made any agreement for repayment, would they be at present in a condition to pay any thing? — I have no doubt of it, because I know instances, not with regard to public lands, but to the sale of private landA, in which the settler has been enabled to pay a rent easily, after five or six years, without any difficulty. 2406. What time do you think they could pay, without material inconvenience ? — It depends so much on the nature of the soil and facility to market, and other things, I can hardly state the particular time. I can state an instance of a settler, who came out without a farthing, going on a piece of private land belonging to a friend of mine, for which he was to pay five pounds for an hundred acres, but he did not. The owner of the land held the grant till he .should pay this sum of money, as he could have paid it easily in the third year ; it was the purchase of an hundred acres. The owner of the land had, in the eastern part of the province, a considerahb district, and he laid it out in hundred-acre lots, payable in a given time. And I know another instance of one of those persons who was remiss in making his payment, and the ownei of the land determined on seizing on the property after six years ; the man did not pay in six years; but when he came to value the property for which the man was to pay, it was valued at 500/. on the hundred acres. 2407. At how much did he originally sell the 100 acres r — Five pounds ; it was probably worth more, for, it was in a very line part of the province ; and the owner of tKe laud looked to his reserve; he sold out part of the land, and the remu- neration he looked to was from the increased value of the reserves in the in- termediate 100 acres. These reserved lots are now turning out to be very valuable. 2408. What is considered in that country the average price of land per acre uncleared ? — It scarcely has any general price affixed to it ; the value of the grant, and the expense attendmg it and ge'ting it clear, regulate the price. 2409. Do you understand that in Nova Scotia, any person asking for a grant and paying the fees, and promising to comply with the terms of the settlement, can get a grant of land from government? — Yes, certainly. 2410. Any number of persons, on going out from Endand, on applying to the Governor in Nova Scotia, could get located on the land ? — Yes, on the payment of the fees. 2411. To any given extent, as to number? — Yes, I should imagine so, to the extent of ungranted land ; there is no other limitation as to number, provided they are British subjects. 2412. Is there any limitation as to tlie means of providing them with good lands? — None, except those mentioned; and there arc very large districts of unappropriated land in Nova Scotia. 2413. Can you state how many have been so located within the last few No, I cannot. Have as many as one thousand or two thousand been located ? — I cannot years ?• 2414 say. 2415- 2416 Where do they generally land ? — At Halifax. How far have they to go to reach their lands ? — Some an hundred or an hundred and twenty miles, if uiey go to Picton; that is anotlwr point for their landing; it is in the entrance of the Gulf of Saint Lawrence. ' i37. Ee 2 2417. Of Capt Henr^ W. Scott, R. H. 3 April, 1817. ^ I 990 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE dpi. Henij tV. Scott, H. K. 3 April, 1817. 3417. Of how many people does the Delhouaie settlement consist? — The first settlement was about three hundred, but they have increased very wonderfully since by their own natural increase. 241 8. Has there been further emigration there ? — Yes, there has been, I cannot state the extent of it. They were principally Scotch, and as soon as they found themselves comfortably there, they added to tneir number by inducing their friends in Scotland to come out to them. 3419. What class of persons were they? — Labouring fanners, but there were some weavers among them. 3420. Do you know from what part of Scotland they came ? — I do not 3431. Can yc J give the Committee any idea of the value of one hundred acres of land in Nova Scotia, at the expiration of five years labour employed upon it, taking it to be in a good situation? — I should certainly say too/, at the very least. 3432. You would consider a hundred acres, after five years labour, as a suflicient security for 3/. a year? — Most undoubtedly. 2423. Would 3/. a year be obtained from one hundred acres of land with greater facility, if it were taken in produce than in money ? — Yes, I think it would. 3434. Do you think that a settler, having been five years upon a hundred acres of land in Nova Scotia, in an ordinary case, would have any difficulty in paying annually 3 /. worth of produce, if he were allowed to redeem his land at twenty years purchase ? — I think there would be no difficulty at all. 242.5. Do vou think that those are terms which would be willingly submitted to by settlers, which could be easily enforced, and for the enforcement of which the land would be a sufficient security ? — Ves. 2426. How much land could a good settler, with a family, clear in a year ? — The European settler could scarcely clear his land at all ; the quantity of land they could clear would greatly depend upon,their funds. An English labourer, going out to America, is as helpless as a ciiild in tlie woods, in comparison with the old settler ; he is obliged to employ the labourers of the country to clear it for him ; his ability therefore would depend upon his capability to hire the people of the country to do it. . 2427. When you say that a hundred acres, after five years possession^ would be worth 100 A, you mean, that the person so settled must pay during that time a considerable sum for the labour of persons in the country ? — I think that after having hired people for the purpose of clearing two or three acres, which would be sunicient for two years, by the expiration of two years he would himself become an axe man, for that is the great difficulty, and then that would render unnecessary any further hiring for the purpose of clearing more land ; it is merely at the beginning he would find it necessary to hire. 3428. At what period of the year was this Dalhousie settlement formed? — In the autumn. 1^429. How did they provide themselves with food for the first few months? — They purchased it at a cheap rate. 243i«. What amount of money do you suppose they took with them, on the average ? — I cannot positively state that. 3431. Do you think they had lu/. a piece? — Yes, certainly. 2432. Twenty? — It is a sort of guess; they came out with a very small sum, and they lived on fish and oatmeal, which ore bought cheap. 2433. You think they had more than lo/. apiece, when they came out? — I think it most probable they had. 2434. Could they always hire persons to assist them in clearing the land ? — Yes, always. 24,35- If a great number went out at once, would they not find a difficulty ? — I think not, labourers come from the States. 2436. Do you know the state of the land prepared for the reception of the emi> grants ? — It is covered with large timber. 2437. From your general knowledge of emigration, will you state how you think a body of two or three thousand weavers from England or Scotland, carried over to Nova Scotia, would be able to make their living? — I should not imagine that tlie habits of weavers would fit them very well for an ufrricultural people. 2438. What growth of timber is upon this land? — A mixture of beech, birch, maple, cypress, and piuc. 2439. T^^y ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. aai 9439. Thcv are intple tnd beech lands, are they not ; not oak ? — There is very iittle oak ; there ii one district of oak, which is a very thriving settletnent indeed. 9440. Do not you consider the oak lands tue best for settlements ? — No ; we think the miied wood best for settlers, where there is a mixture of what they call in that country, hard and soft wood ; where there is a mixture of the pine and beech with the others. 9441. Immediate clearing is more difficult for the earlier settlers where there is a mixture, is it not? — No ; there is not much difference, I think, in the expense of clearing. 2449. Do you know any thing of New Brunswick? — A little; I have been living there two yean. 9443. Have you been up the river St. John ? —.1 have. 9444. Is there much unsettled land in that province ? — A great deal, very large tracts indeed. 2445. And good land ? — Not so good as in Nova Scotia ; it is generally covered by pine timber, and that is not an indication of the best soil. 9446. What part of those provinces should you think best suited for emigration, on a considerable scale? — There are tracts ail over the province, which are all good, I think ; I cannot specify any particular place ; there is a large tract of country between the sources of the St. John's river on the one hand, and the sources of the Miramichi, which opens into the Bay of Fundy ; there is a great tract of land quite fit for settlement. 9447. Are there any large mas&es of land, which have been granted to persons without any obligation. to settlement? — I know there are in both provinces ; and that has been a very great injury to the settlement of the provinces. 2448. Were they not in many cases granted under engagements for settlements, which have not been fulfilled ? — Yes, aij those lands are liable to escheat ; but S>vemment have been disposed to listen to the claims of some persons owning em, under very peculiar circumstances. 2449. Have government given any intimation to the grantees, that unless they proceed to settle them, the conditions of the grant will be enforced ?•— Certamly. 9450. Is the surveying department on a considerable scale in those provinces ? — Yes, there is a surveyor general, who, with assistants, has surveyed all over the province, for the purpose of laying out lands for the settlers ; and there is a register kept of all the locationii, and a map, in the surveyor general's office, of the grants. 24,51. Suppose in the present year three or four hundred settlers were sent out to Nova Scotia or New Brunswick, they could be located?— I have no doubt of it, if they were uent out not too late in the fall ; the chopping is generally done before the snow, and the building of house* is done to most advantage in the autumn, before the snow falls. 2452. Do the people of the colony see with pleasure the arrival of new emi- grants ? — Yes, they are delighted with it. The greatest drawback upon those colonies is the want of a working population ; wages are very high in conse- quence of that. 2453. Do not you think the colonies would be very much strengthened, as to their political existence, by increasing their internal population ? — There is no doubt of that. 2454. Ill the districts you have mentioned to have been surveyed by the surveyor general, is it the practice in his department to make roads where new settlers are expected to come ? — Not in every instance. 2455. Would it be very useful to the settlers, if roads were made previously to their arrival ? — No doubt of it. 2456. Would that give much employment to persons in the ditferent parts of Nova Scotia ? — Yes, most undoubtedly ; it is the most important step to the settle- ment of the country. 2457. Would it add to the value of the allotments, if the roads were made? — Very much. 24.58. Do you conceive that would be a beneficial expenditure on the part of the ffovernment? — No doubt of it; but the provinces always do it ; it is done out of the provincial iunds : the roads are always made as a matter of course. 337- fi e .1 i459- Can Cast, //rary IT. Scelt, H. N. « i 3 AprU, 1817. aaa MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ac. Cut. R. H. 3 April, 18117. 9459. Cmi tou fonn «ny opinion u to the number of men who could find em- ployment in that province u labourert, if they were to go out? — I should tfty any number, with reference to the quantity of unlocated land. 9460. Do you think a thousand could find employment as mere labourers ? — Yes. or a sreater number. 3461. You have stated in a former part of your evidence, that it would be necessary to employ a hired labourer at the beginning of the settlement; sup- posing an emigration of agricultural labourers ^om Engltiud, or persons mode- rately iskilled in agriculturaliabour, to be furnished with a year or a year and 4 half's 1)rovi8ions, do you think that though not skilled in the use of the axe, they would •e able to maintain themselves after the expiration of that period ? — I thiidt that if government were to give them two years provisions, they would be able to do il after that on their own land. 3462. When you stated that settlers would be able at the end of five rears to pay 3/. for their allotments, did you contemplate the sort of settlers who have gone there hitherto? — I speak particularly of Scoteh settlers, who are the best and most industrious. 2463. Do you contemplate persons who have no capittil, or persons who have a capital? — Persons who nave no capital, or very little, aa I have already stated. a4()4. Is it your opinion that if tnree thousand paupers were sent out well pro- vided, and were tolerably skilled in ordinary agricultural labour, they woula be enabled at the end of five years to pay 3 /. a year for their land ? — Yes ; when I say they have no capital, 1 suppose them to be supplied for two years with provisions, that government put them down under that supposition ; I have no doubt they would be enabled, at the expiration of that period, to pay 3/. 3465. What (Tould be the value of those two years provisions for a man, his wife, and three children? — Twelve or fourteen pouuds a year; aqd they will require seeds and implements of husbandry. 3466. Do you conceive there would be greater facility in emigrants from Nova Scotia going to the United States, than m>m Csnadaf— The facilities are quite numerous enough in Nova Scotia ; I have never been in Canada. 2467. Do you think that a great number of emignmts who have gone to Nova Scotia, have gone over to the United States? — The greater number have gotie. 3468. When you speak of emigrants, you do not mean those who have been settled on lands in Nova Scotia? — No, I mean the emigrant who has been landed there, and felt his way afterwards to the United States soon after his landing. 'I469. That observation would not apply f-* any class of emigrants settled on land, leaving thut to go to the United States ? — No, I think certainly not. r V V c^. I