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" My son, fear thou the Lord, and -meddle not with them that are given to cliange."-Sol. f 0t0na: FEINTED BY JOHN- DONOGH. 1856. . =!>^~'f^tmmm^ms X . f 'WIM DIALOGUES ALGER ? 4; ^ i^ c A NON NEWWAYS AND SAME UEL OLDPATHS, IN WHICH, ATTENDANCK AT CLASS MEETINGS wiS A CONDITION OP CUUUOH MEMBf.USUir, IS SHOWN TO BE BOTH WE8LEYAN AND BCRIPTCRAL, AND THE UKLATION OF CHILDREN TO THE VISIBLE CHURCH OF CUKIdT, IS EXl'IiAlNED AND VINDICATED BY REV. JOHN BORLAND, J«etf)olifst ifWrnfsttt, '• Thus sahh the Lord, stand ye in iho ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is t)!f. good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls."— Jeremiah. " My son. fear thou the Lord, und~medd'c not with then that are given to change."— Sol. PRINTED FOR THE AUTHOR, 1856. :.,- jfljg' A^^' "^ ; %% SEP 2 1956 PUEFACE. The efforts which have recently been made to create a change in the Discipline of our Church, in reference t<» attendance on Class-Meetings as a Con- dition t. C< I!! rch Membership, are known not only to ail wi iiin its prde, but even to many beyond it. Ibo, ."ocession of the Rev. Dr. Ryerson from the Ministry, becrauvso imaM^ k* effect that change, and ;iu< pubijcation of a pamphlet to explain his reasons for so important an action immediately after, were circufustances which many thought would produce a considerable excitement, and that to the extreme limits of the connexion. This however, has not been the case, j; .id is probably owing, mainly, to the prudent course which the Conference pursued in abstaining, as far as practicable, from all exciting reference to the subject. It has nevertheless been my conviction, ihat sooner or later' an antidote to Dr. Ryerson's pham- phlet shouUl be supplied ; and therefore, I rejoiced to learn that one was forthcoming from the pen of the Rev. II. Wilkinson, of London. His piety as a christian ; his habits as a pastor ; and his intelli- gence as a Minister, gave assurance that the service would be well performed by his hand. All this is the case so far as the main subject of the pamphlet is concerned, viz. Class-meetings a Wesleyan and Scriptural condition of church membership— but as ttk iMiH Preface. . Vw he gives of the relation oH^al U.c f : J the vi^iW"^ Church >« J^ - ^,,^ „, dren to i"^ ^ , vcnturca i" strictly Wesleyan-1 have ^|,e whole my pen. f ^ *"' 4i, I the more readily c o, as suhieft in debate. 11"^ ' . j,orntion to Dr. '*^ie^vs where we ^o* ^^^ aiterent channel Byerson, have nm m a some.U ^.^^^^^ ftim his, and *at I can suPPT ^_^ ^^ ^,g„„,ent fear of travelling over the ^^J^ j^^^en in order '^^Th form of -ii'^^"?^^" J^T^Sy andfuUy, not that I might give t^n. ™«-»^^/^ Ws of my „„,y the -"^^"*:,revery ins.ice rs rende-d opponents. Thus w" , employ, the reader to them and the «S"«' » -S T^ctweeu us, and will be the better able to jud„ lake the truth his own. DIALOGUE 1. Class-Mfrtin"S a Condition nf Church MenibersUp. Algernon A^cMJ/xY^j/s.-Good morning, Samuel, I a«J "lad to meet you; 1 want to converse with you about matters which, of kite, have very much occupied my mind. Samuel Old paths -VI e\\, Alj^ernon, I have some leisure at the present, and will gladly devote it to the conversation you desire. Pray, what are the matters which so much interest you1 ^. iV.— The principal one is, that our church should insist on attendance at Class-meetings, a^s a condition of membership. " I do not regard as Wesleyan, or having the sanction of Mr. Wesley, the making attendance at class-meeting an essential condition of membership in the church of Christ. Mr. Wesley declared that the sole ol>ject of his labours was, not to form a new sect, but to revive religion in the church and in the nation; that each class was a voluntary society in the church, but was no more a separate church organization than a Bible Society, a Temperance Society, or Young Men's Christian Association, is a seperate organization." ^. o.— Friend Algernon--! look at you, and listen to your remarks, with mingled feelings of [surprise and disappointment ; nor can I well sup- Condition of Church tiilkin'' a bout B iblc and in 6 Clan-Meetinsa as a p,ess the laugh .4 r-" ™7::,; ^^^.U.^ Temperance Soeiefes, ";;• "^f^^^, i,,, ,cq«aint- Mf. Wesley's .lay. You -'^^]^ j ti,,„^ut you ed with Mr. Wesley's -^^ ""8;;'^^„,iderins y"«' were, or than you ov^-t to be ^^^^ ^^^^^^. standing in the /^^urcn, and o^^ ^^^^^^ ^^„ y^u dence with wh.eh {»" j; j.^vered his judgment aware that Mr. V^ esley ha« ^lu ^^^^^,^,^^ mostexpUeWyou*V«sv«y ul,cc^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^ you are not. «'- y^^; "fallen fronr your lips. statements which have u. ^^^^^^^. „. I will direct y;-f^-X society at five and . Lplained the ^-^^ ^Ja" now about five hun- upon enquiry, I Am we ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^ dred memhers. But one n therefore, i do;iot P-tendtomee at ^;-oft^, ^^^^^ make no ""^-l^';^ •',,_. Dear Joseph we must Mr. Benson, he ^"7° „ i„ November last, threaten no l-fj^^t; ^ur rule is, to meet a I told tne London ^"^ '-^y- „, three, I now class once a week, ""^ ?'^'=^.'^ ^ \i,^ets to none in give you warnmg, ^^^^^ done this.' I have February but those tlut have ^^^^_^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ stood to my word. Go you, an ^^ ^^,^. you visit the ^I'^f -;^ .«;^^"^d. Promises to meet Ue and go on to S« de^- ^^_^^ „„, ^ are now out of date, tiw ^^^^^ .^ ^j,^ times in the quarter eM r-d m ^^^ ^^^^ society, '^i f^ZhXfnoLet tu.lve times, M^rtet exclude all that ««"'' , ^ ^ distance, that is, unless thev were hindeieU y ch riblc and xistcd in acquuint- juglit you rin^i y<>«T the confi- Aro you' i jud-^^mcnt ?' doubtless niadc the i your lips, vohime II. it five, and ng in class ; ,ut five hun- teen of these ?, therefore, i Lu a letter to l>h we n)ust 3vember last, Ls, to meet a r three, I now ts to none in this.' ibave vise, wherever j| d be, at New- )inises to meet I not met seven r names in the will the next 't twelve times, d by distance, Memhcniip Jjoth Weslyan i'Scrtj[)tural. 7 sicknes.*?; or by some unavoidable business." Vol. XIII. p.l 4. 'Jo Mr. Vewdail, Mr. W. writes :— " Those who will rot meet in class cannot stay with us" That Mr. V/csley did not desigjn that his societies should ever assume a scperate church organization is admitted; but that that separate o; nization was Ibrced upon his society, by circumstduces which he ^ could not control, is weli known, as it was clearly apprehended, and to some extent provided for, by Mr. Wesley himself Yet you find no evidence, not the slightest, that he wished the condition of mem- bership TO be made less stringent; but the contrary, rather. The burden of proving the latter rests with you, my friend ; and I assure you, your attempt at doing so would be the commencement of a very hopeless task. It is not without point in this con- troversy, that when Mr. Wesley counselled and directed in the formetion of the Methodist church in the United States, he called for no alteration m the disciplinary usage for the church there, to that which he enforced in his societies at home. This one fact is fatal to your argument drawn from that source, and must therefore be abandoned. ^, iV.— If, as J confess I must, retreat from my position, so ikr as Mr. Wesley is concerned, I still maintain that my objection is fiilly sustained by Holy Scripture, and " that no human authority has a right to impose any condition of membership in the Church of Christ, which is not enjoined by or may be concluded from the Holy Scripture." « I know of no Scriptural authority to slude any , ■^ . ' *, rhmch of Clui.t on earth, except person from the t-^^^^ "j^^^,, „i„, Iro.n (he lOnS" , t'llic in this S. o.-I confess e;-;;^/^*-'?^ ^^^ f^^il.st measure subjeet increases my sv,rp^., ^.^^,^ ^Uat-iw- of which I ask y.°"' -l^^X Ai»g *»t will keep a • r,^al conAaa^' '^^ ^o^ of Glor>- If -• person out of the y o ^^^^^^ ^^ matenally and you are "!5^^.*''^„",ad of saying. " Except a altered. O^" «^^'""' ^ ea.mot see or enter the ^,n te bom ajn ;^e - ,,,, ,„,.tit«ted an Kingdom "f/^^J ^,;,.„; ,„„,;„,(" for that great avoidance of » ^'""'^ ^ ^^j^^.^ tUe Apostle, nay spiritual change!. ^n ^^^^^^ ^,^ ^j^ ^ the Holy Spmt by t he A ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^.^^ ^„^„ without hol;nes^ -e can ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ . mistaken, lor all tlial ^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^^ (.^j^,^j^ ,j avoid " mMORA. 00."''^^ - j.^^ i,, the T*-^^'tS S'f eTclvincL that they have rehgious ^^of" '^' . ,,, acquaintance with the possess. •+• « nna its application to the As to your FoP^^'^f \^ „ J n ust say, that it X- ,ii^rlpr consideration, i niuM. ^ J-' *l"'''"'Ve sam^ cmdeness of thon.ht, and hasti- evmces the same c ^^ ^^^^ ^.^^^ ^^g^ ness of conelus.on. Have y j,^,,, passages of ^'^'''^''''^^^mdto Mtl^fiork^over which the Holy Ghost hath made you ch 1, excex)t lie KinS" ; in this t measure that " im- n\\ keep a 1 If so, materially « Except a . enter the tituted an that great postle, nay ■es us that 3 was mneh ereto, is to )ar friend, if upon it, the at they have nee with the you seem to ication to the t say, that it ht, and hasti- vot read such iwing— " Take U the flock, over werseers, to feed Membership, both Wesleyart ^' Scriptural 9 the Church of God, tchich he hath purchased with his oum Blood ?" If so, lias it not occurred to you that llic elders, or rulers of a church, arc under fearful responsihilities to feed, as well as to rule properly, the Church of God ? But if they are compelled to feed and rule, are the mernhers to he held hy no obligation hut that of their own good pleasure to attend and co-operate in their measures! lire idea is preposteroJ.s. Again, in almost pointed allusion to such meetings as our Class meetings, St. Paul exhorts :— " And let us consider one another to provoke unto lave and good works : not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another ; and so ^nuch the more, as ye see the day approaching'' I repeat that the apostle may he supposed to pouit to assemblies of the Piimitive Church, exactly similar to our Class-meoHngs— for surely they are times in which, in the best sense, we " cojisider one another to provoke unto love and good works," then, therefore, the inlerence is unavoidable, that to absent our- selves from such means, enforced as they are by the rules of the clmrch for objects of saivation, and abundantly proved to be eminently conducive to that end, is to sin, and by a wilful perseverence therein to render ourselves obnoxious to expulsion ; nor would the rulers of a church be guiltless in wink- ing at such an oifence. Indeed, the words immedi- ately following the Scripture edited, show thjit the Apostle viewed the conduct of such absentees in a strong light, for he adds '' if ws sin wilfully," as [though he meant that sucli conduct was a cowardly M M^.s as a Condition of Church 10 Class-Meattngs as a ^ c ,.r fiith in Christ, and 1 n Strong and irrcsistable Class-meetin«s have "^ ^""^-t position we give e,ai.n on Ac hi.h -J FO^^^^bly providential ,,,em,fortlieyor.gmatedmar^ ^^^^.^^^y_^ way ; they wevo foand to ^^^^^^^^^ .aificat ion; indetectingirregulan les an 1 ^ ^^^^^^^^ ,i and now after a lapso ot mo ^^^^ ^^^^ ^„,t are prized by the gre^at bi "^ ^^^^^.^^^^.^ jhein, spiritual of our ■'^.'^'^'^^J P„^ ,, handed to us frona !. break down «-- f ";7w:ioy,--and throu£ tiie great, wise =»'!, f "° p^„„,, the Mathers, the the hands of «- f X^rar^wells, ect., ect., o Pawsons, the Cl'^rks,me ^^.^.^p^^^^nt trust, ---e are not capable. A„dwho, my ^;j-s::z:!^i:^ ehaagS you demand of us N^ « ^^^ ^^ ^^^^^. of those wlro are mal^-g a ,^op ^ ^^^ ^^^^ „eetir.gsnr.d therefore knwn^c ^^.^^^ ^^^^._^^ ^^ ^ rather-andlmaV th.a er ^^ spirituality is spirit of undue "'A'";"^; ^^^,,,f„re, do not wish iiarfully below V^^^^ ^ieh they have htUe to be dogged into f "l'J'''=^^r „,,er, I trust, find out I or no relish. No! you wiU ^^^ ^f mem- ohureh so insane as to give up ^^^^ .ts J hership whieh has '■>-" f;,t;ge -Wch in the! I J ch rist, and resistable I we give ovideiitial erviccable dification; ttiiry, they and most ider them, to us from id through ithers, the ;ct., ect., ot [T impo^ tant of which, I 3Iemhership, both Wesleyan ^ Scriptural. 11 3ased by the a a thousand se of Class- ic ; hut those, | L nothing of a | .pirituaUty is | 3, do not wish | heyhave little " trust, find our litionofmem- .ortant from its vhich in the ambers, both in the ministry and out of it, would work injuriously to our highest interests and objects. A. JV.— Although not able to meet all you say, Itiend Samuel, I nevertheless « am persuaded that every person who believes the doctrines, and ob- " serves the precepts and ordinances enjoined by our Lord and his Apostles, is eligible to membership m the Cliurch of Christ; and cannot, on Scriptural or Wesleyan grounds, be excluded from its rights and privileges upon the mere ground of his or her being unable" to reconcile it to their views to take a part in the conversations of Class-meetings." S. 0.— You must excuse me Algernon, if I say, that there is much that is sophistical in your argii- ments and statements. Your position just now laid down contradicts itself. It amounts to just this— that persons may be, should be, members of the Church on observing the precepts and ordinances of the Lord and his Apostles ; provided, however, that none of these precepts and ordinances are irre- concilable with their views of propriety and expe- diency. I have already given you an injunction from St. Paul to do the very thing which some do not wish to do, viz : that of assembling together for mutual edification in love ; and yet, because their " views " are antagonistic to the counsels of Infinite Wisdom they are to act accordingly and be guilt- less ! Again, it is a divine command that the members of the Church should « obey those that have the 12 aass-Meetings as a ConMon of Chunk ^ ^^ M. over them; for they ^.atcU for J-^^^'l^i^; -^ they that must give aceount »i ^,,„,_,for cer- to depend upou a mere uum of thu> J .^^^, ,.Jy anobjeetion to ^I^^^^^A^,^^^ ae.erve.nohetter to^ , no.cn^ ^^.^ ^^^^^^^ christian ean "hject to mcU ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^.^^^^ tians to eo.xverse a.id P'^'V "-^^^^^^^^^ ^„i„ded professor richest interest to every ^P"f fj ,„ ^,J. _then tlic Apostolie preeept i* oi Have you ever pon of this nature by pressiv^ non^ered tlie alkrsions to meeting's r'S-t Malachi and tire .m- "I ' - - ■ --ah hunself !— I Jehovi ,vni read It for your consid.ratioi . i ,vill read it for your <^"''"^ ,„ „,„,,/,,,," (as tMt feared tke Lord spak^ oftn o. t ^^^^^^^^^^^^ and heard it, and a booh o um ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ own son '/"''-•■-"';;;^;,.^ jiiy ,in,i!ar to ourelass- i siou to mectmgs «"^'"'^;*7 .^ ;, . ^nd beeause I meetings 1 ""'l«'^^*'""^\"'f * ;„' w ■ nn-st, nccord- ' our ehureh ^visely «n»'"* Z^™; I opti..nal as to i„,toyonrtheory, leave It vufc'y ^^ ^_^^_ .vhether our member, s .11 ^ .,,,,„cnanee whieh just amounts to <"^' ; ,^ -f „„ ,„cm- shall rest upon a mere co»* ' ^'™^>; ,,f „,ay ,ers so please an mv^;;^^^ rcll souls, as dience is —for cer- mcetiugs nteUige.iit ow cbvis- tei-softlie d profch^sor lil. meetings ndtlie im- hiniself^ — ' Tlicn they lothei-r (as 1 hcarhenfdi ivas written vrd, and that e mine, saith make np ^^^V n spareth his here an all«- • to our elass- aiicl because iiiust, accord- optional as to cm or not, — ■ r inaintcnance iidiftlicmcni- of ?.^rnce may j,U be dropped. s very latitude, Membership, both Wesleijan Sf Scriptural. 13 claimed and acted upon, led to the disuse of such means in other branches of the church, both old and new, as from Malachi and St. Paul it is very clear they once existed? And, if so, it is an additional reason for adoring that providence which led Mr. Wesley to enforce attendance thereon even on the penalty of expulsion. Better that luke-warm pro- fessors should be expelled from the church than that so important a means of grace should be endan- gered, much less given up and abandoned. That it should be optional with persons as to which section of the church they will join, or intleed any at all or not, 1 readily admit ; but 1 never can agree with you that after joining a church they should be allowed perfect liberty as to whether or not they will conform to its rules :— rules prayerfully devised and divinely attested. There are other views which tend to strengthen my convictions of the scriptural character of class- meetings, and of the importance of enforcing attend- ance thereon even at the penalty of expulsion. The first of these i* the opportunity thus aflbrded to the mmisters of the church for knowing the spiritual state of the members, and thus of ministering such instructions etc., as their cases may call for ; but if no such means exist, or may, or may not be atten- ded as the members shall please, an important end of ministerial obligation may be defeated ; and which, according to your scheme, may be done v.dth impunity. t Another is, a church exists for mutual edification ; ,r ,• „. as a Condition of Church 14 O'U..-.- » ^^^^^^ „,V.,, that the members may sympath.^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^ in seasons of trouble '-^^^^^^^^ ^nd pray with ttaes of tcn>ptat-n;--"'y;„j _hut .^.e state each other "VP"'"^ "J, fj^wa to sorre exten m of each member «"«; be kno ^^^^ ^^j^,, order to do this ;-yet '^^^^''.^^i.ous to them are elass-rrreefmgs. or -jf ^° ^leetlr^gs have been usedl F^f ^^^'^^'^ '" J viee But let us remove found tobe of essential semc^ ^^ ^^^.^^ the neoessHy ior "* «»J';» ^^y t,,o,„e neglected, ^e ougbt. and -» « 7J^f ,uurch organization and thus an ' 7"^*^"* ^ when I reflect upon your wouldbelost. I'=«"fi^ Xt .i,nmmal conduct w^ll statement, that *|^^'|„,,„,„ „/ Glouj," and «c/«* « i'^'f 1-^' ' J' effort to etfect so serious a eonple it ^-* this your^cft^^.^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^.^^^^ „„ r%;:i-ltaW and prospects. -,.^._..ouareveryco.«-i^rtS must admit with me, tlvat -' ^^^^^^ ,„a abu- „otwithstandingoec.^onaUmi P^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ .,, ,,, attending ^em, l^*. ^«^" , ^,,,f„i„ess of the l^romoting fbe ^f'f";^';\%„torcing attendance Wesleyan Ch«eh , f *- ^^ ^^^^.^ip, you deviate thereon, as a c""'^'^'? primitive church, for " the from the practice frt-P'- and not class-' 1 celebration of *%^i„_haracteristic institution ^ meetings, was the bm to, ^h^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ y„„ ,U upon its members , • ' comnmnion, and /repel ^o-ands who ^^^ ^^^^^^^^.^^ of all tke with one sweep Ignore tn Membership, both Wesleyan tj* Scriptural 15 baptized children of the body," sending away and keeping " away the conscientious and straight- forward, who could not think of joining a reli- gious community without intending habitually to observe all its rules," while " after all, it i^ habitu- ally disregarded by a large portion of both preach- ers and people, and is made, as far as my observa- tion goes, an instalment of gratifying individual hostiUty, rather than a means cf promoting the re- ligious and moral ends of christian discipline." ^^ 0.--This last, friend Algernon, is a large count, with several grave particulars ; one of which, viz: that of ignoring the membership of baptized children, I will reserve for another opportunity.— The others I will now attend to in the order you present them. ^ First, then, the diilerence in our usage as to the condition of membership with that of the primitive church. But will you contend, or are you pre- pared to show, that " the celebration of the Lord's Supper" was the only condition which the prirni- iive church had, or might have had, in perfect accordance with the spirit and design of the New Testament ? Your statement to this end is not suffi- cient. I think it is easy to conceive that attendance on the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, in the ab- sence of other evidences of attention to the institu- tions of Christianity, would not have sufficed (nor ought it to have done) as a claim to church mem- •bership. There is one end which your reference to I ,e aass.MeeHn,sasaConMi.>.ofa.r.k A +ivif is to show tlml this particular ^viU answer, a,,d b. ^^^^ ^ coivlitions of w^^-^^t^^^^^^.-ar^d if a differ- 1 I, Thpv also exist ni oiir» chureli. /'^<^y , i„stitntion designed to act enee is found '» 'l^*- " .^„^,i of, not because for this object, it is to be J '«= g ; t„,, to of any verbal -^^ «-,•;" ,,,0 'To ,ro,notc the *""* f'^lTthTcto; w a'lnstitntld. On this ends for vdiich the churui ^i,„rches have we can confidently "^^^^^^ >.'" / ° '',,f„ ; but with the very -'"d!^-" .*■; ^^'f^r ad success, need r^;:;S:;ar;;:e:^;a:^-f comparison. "-«-r:.rri:t.i;.s:r;rtC of the apostolic clunch is ^^ ^^^ .easono for expulsion from U^ P«' • .^,^ as the Scriptures give s l^.Vit o ^^ "-^ ^''°^1iStfl *^^^^^^^ »/ ^<*''"" «"f ,,st, or are hoUleis 01 m ^^^^^ ^^^^j, '/ .fe *'f '''/"'l^lee^in wW lluch a disciplinary are the only instances 11 v 1 ^^ j^^_ process should l>e aPPl;^dJ t > no ^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^ n reference to this ^si'' ^ CM ^ refemnl to, ehargedfornotdoin^ml^^^^^^^^^ what they had no f f "'* ^ . ^ ^o wait for lit- i„5 most clearly that a '^'-^^^ ^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ftom the eral direction ^-^}^^£^ the Jreat end« , effects of conduct . n its mem ^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^ of their orgamzatton. Ye«, U P ^^^^ ^„^i ^^.j objects of the church are to be co ^^ ^^^ which wouW militate "S-"^^, ^To be indite j dealt with as its influen-c demands. , ill rch ^how thai primitive f a ditfer- ?(1 to act )t because ripture to )inotc the . On this rches have ; but with ccess, need rnparison. ?xact usage as to the i. e., so far the subject, couuviit in- Balaam, and ,y that such disciplinary [bout weight, that they are ;s referred to, doing ;«hf>w- o wait for lit- duty from the [\ie oreat ends that the great 1 Lered, and that | objects is to be , To be indif.: Member^hipi both Wesleyan Sf Sc iptural. 17 ferent herein would be to lay a church open to censure and rebukes I lay it down as a principle with the utmost confidence, that a christian truly in earnest for eternal life will gladly avail himself, or herself, of such a means as class-meetings ; and any who are not thus in earnest, are threatened with expulsion by the Head of the Church himself. " / know thy works, that tJwu art neither cold nor hot ; I would thou wert cold or hot. St tlien because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Now, my friend, read and ponder this passiige of Scripture ; and if you do so fully, I will venture to predict that your objection to our rule, as being unscriptural, will vanish as mist from the influence of the rising sun. You say that by our condition of membership we repel thousands from our communion who other- wise would readily join it. Then, it must be ad- mitted, we are not as a church unduly anxious to swell our numbers, or, that a way is easily opened to us for doing so. Be this as it may, the charge you here present is a grave one, and should not rest lightly against us. But I apprehend the result would be like that of increasing the quantity of a liquid by diluting its quality. This would be in- creasing the size, but certainly not the value and [efficiency of the church. Methodism has no reason [to be ashamed of its principles as judged by the [results which have flown from them in the labours ); a century. The condition against which you jxcept in us, exists not in other churches, while the . 1 f„r iM fnllv sranted there ; and yet, with none of thtni comparison. . , ;il ,.xtcna my remarks a littlt 0„ ibis pon^t -'^^f;iuilg myself better further ; and tor the sake o ^^^ .^ .^ ^^,i understood, employ a .gure^ ^^^^ j, ^i,h known, exists for the ^^^^ ,^,^, ,„ health, the proil-ssod object ot restoi „ ^^ ^^^ .^^ and sending ^^^-^^;>^\''Z^'^ hospital depends duties. The "^J:*;,.. ,^J, ^o thl end. Aware „pon the ~- . ^^^^^^^^^^^ means which ha.e of this, one has in^ti'""^" ^^^^ ^^ gen- been eminently ^f^':^^^";^,^; principles rises up tleman of exeeedmgly " f^^^^^^^^ ^ allowed ,nd denumds that P«fec hb. rt) sh ^.^^ ^, ^^^^ ^^^ the patients as ^" -*;;.:, abiL by every rul^ the presenptions ot "^l ^^ „„, „,ie, particularly of the institution ; '>"d a au_ ,^ ^^^^^ betakes exceimon - • «-* ;^^ ,^ be examined patient to api^ar at g.v en P ^^^^^^ained. Any ^"•"•^^'fh^e h on^eLs, is nnrcasonable and compnlsion here, he ^ y j^ and mam tapolitie; for some i'^Hhe hospital if no such Jre would gladly enter the h ^P ^^ ^^s ordeal was demanded. "^« f ^i^,^„„t reason :- and say, Mr. ^^-^^ ^* „ot you assuredly Are you aware, tor it yo ^^^^j ought to be, that - 1-P' «^ -f :,V gratify the swell the number of its """; ^i,^ ^ick ration- H ere; and suft'er by ks a little iclf better , it is well eople with to health, fit foi its lI depends nd. Aware which ha fe Dnce a gen- es rises up L be allowed ill follow all 3y every rule , particularly comj)els each be examined aincd. Any asouablc and it, and many ,1 if no such turn to him out reason:— ^Tou assuredly! not to merely to gratify the] ■he sick ration- possible. Our . Member iliipi both Wcsleyan Sf Scriptvral. 19 course hitherto, has been most successful ; while the alteration you propose has no one quality to recom- mend it. Please to let us alone that we may pursue our course unhindered by your ill-judged intrusion. I will leave you to draw the necessary inference from this figure, may it serve to correct your judg- ment, and thus render you a service. Your reference to the " conscientious and straight-forward" persons who, but for our ill-advis- ed condition of membership would unite with us, is rendered more particularly attractive by your fling at others, whom you describe as " a large por- tion of both preachers and people," who yo . say disregard this rule. Man is a fro-ward creature,- and it is sometimes exceedingly difficult to induce, and even to compel him to attend to what is for his benefit. But allowing your statement all the lati- tude you desire, (which many refuse to do \vho are much more competent, trom their position and em- ployments to form a judgment herein than you can be,) it becomes a question, whether or not it would be judicious to substitute a weaJcer motive for obe- dience to an important duty when a stronger one has been found to be ineffective. Could we be assured that the number of those delinquents would be matched by the very " conscientious and straight-forward'' persons you allude to, it would I certainly be a reason for reflection ; but as I think 'these estimable beings exist only in your imagina- Ition, it would be exceedingly visionary to give up a [tangible reality for a mental creation. ,0 Cla..Me.i.,sa,aCo.mo.ofCkMc, -rue closing ~k o^ your la«t '^^^^ to notice a moment ere we Pj"*" .j^^^^.„^,„,,,g, "is n,le .nforcing """/'tcrvation^'oes.auinstrunicnt „.ade as far as 'your' ob.cn at^o^ ^^^^^ for gratifying i^'l^'trUr^ilud moral ends o roeaus ol'promoting the rcU .^.^^^ ^,,„g,, and ehristiandisciplrue. lU ,^„,body. But, rests mamly against them tuing to drag Algernon, have you «;« Jf -^u ;L, „nd moral .„cU offenders agamst rt.^J_^^. ^^^ ^„,,^„i ends .i discipline to 3"'=. ^^is subject have been u"^<=««"ff^'j;;e: led to your credit, hitherto ; a th.ng "«^*° ^;-^'j ^^^ict it has been to when it is considered low d ^^^^^^^ j_^^^ your obsevvatron -J^-Jjtch mul-practices been to demand and corre .^j, ^^^y i But, you must aHoW ""^ ^y.'ydasalundof make- heUeve, tWshasbeen mhoduced ^^.^^ ^^^ weight to your argumeta ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^ for the occasio... '\,/fl„,n„e those only who 3ay. This assc.tK>u ''» ^Inary usages in such do not understand our '^^^^^^^'^J, ^j^^^ our church has guards «'>'^^;'"7_^hers ''om any such /t, ^c, lit 1 wit^U f that the tiug'^ " is istrunicnt r than a :al ends of \arge, and ^dy. But, ijg to draj? and moral a certainly lis subject your credit, las been to means have J-practices. rith many 1 ind of make- ling coined act I must ,se only who ;ages in such it our church nd well ap- |i m any suchi I gain to resort n a bad argu- ;an only injure DIALOGUE II. TJie relation of baptized children to the visible Church of Christ, explained and vindicated Algernon Newumjs.—Guod morning, Samuel; I have des-ired to renew our conversation on the sub- ject whicl. occupied our attention when we were !ast together. I hope your leisure as well as your incJination w^iJl admit of a resumption of it now, Samuel Oldpaths.— My Icisu-e and inclination are at one in this case ; and if you please, we will go at once into the point reserved for future consideration. It was as to whether or not, by making attendance on class-meeting a condition of membership, the Methodist Church did not ignore the membership of all children baptized by their ministers. A. iv;— Yes, that is my avowal, and I think that as an inference .it is unavoidable. S. 0.— Your inference is just as logical as is that of the Baptist, who, from the commission of the Saviour to his Apostles, concludes against the bap- tism of children. The case is as follows ;— " Go ye into all the world," said Christ, " and preach the Gospel to every creature ; he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned." Now, exclaims the Baptist, children cannot believe, therefore they should not be baptize '' But if so, and the inference i? just, the 22 The Relation of CIdldren to the Vuible be damned ! It tlie con ^ ^^^^^^ ^^^. just, the latter one IS even mo e^^ ^^^^^ ,,^. ^^ 1^*^:: \':1 Se - satis^ed that this senp- .aptism. VV e tner ^„ ^^^^ ^o adults *'«^/°"r ATlailtti heUeve in order to exclusively. All auii , only, were the baptism and -l-t-'^^j f "^ "Jjf Ct as I^^m* ehil- Apostlescomm—W^^^ considerations. . . AT T aDwehend your meaning. You wild ^- ^ . T fhnt IS children are incapable ,,,e me to ^;J^l ^^eir claim to church of attending class-ineenn, ^^.^ membership must rest on «^« ^, "^'f/ ^,,,,, fto„, you when yoWOudreot perceive it. And let me tell you mv frLrd, with all affectionate fiuthfulness and cairdour, that with singular inconsi^tcucy, you seem to have ost sight of more than one important ele- Int in our cLch's polity, the proj^ mfluence 1 which would have given a very difterent turn to your arguments and objections. A TV . -Well, Samuel, as yon take the ibundation from beneath my present superstructure I will aban- don it, and if you please will take up "-rtier ph^e of the subject suggested by a pamphlet (tV th«R«^- H. Wilkinson) I have recently read. Alter all, l think that "the stereotyped terms and sentiments of much that is written in reference to the relaaon- suip of children to the church, and the etfie.ency of baptism in connection with that re ationship should be rejected. " There is much in the phrase- ology adopted, as well as in the ideas attempted to be conveyed, that I never fully received, and that, in fact, to my mind, never became intelligible ; and I fancy, for that very good reason, that ' NoDjense can ne'er te understood.' " ble 3n he has ) discrini- ;onal ben- , he posi- liem,then, tie merits are quite roux figure one won- lg tell you, Iness and , you seem )ortant ele- [ifiuence of ^nt turn to Ibundation I will aban- other phase (by the Rev. After all, I sentiments the reladon- le efficiency relationship" [1 the phrase- attempted to , and that, in oible ; and I Church of Christ, Explained and Vindicated. 25 S, 0.— This is strong language assuredly, and must be treated according to the particulars to which it refers. If you mean the absurdities of popery or puseyismherf^in, I will agree with you, but if to such sentiments as those maintained by Wesley, Benson, Clarke, Watson, and olliers of our Church, and as well by the greatest lights of the church of Christ in all its periods, then I most seriously and earnestly dissent from you. But pray be somewhat more ex- plicit that I may understand your reference. A. N. -Well then, if I were asked. " Arc children members of the church of Chi ist vpon eurth ?" I would answer " without controversy they are. It is incon- trovertibly established by the plainest 1 cachings of the Book'of God, that infants and little children are, thanks to Jesus Christ ! in a gracions state. See Matt, xviii : 2. 5 : Horn, v : 12, 20. Matt. xix. 14. llow full the affirmation !— of such are the Kingdom of Heaven." " The next inquiry is. Are children members of lite visible church 1 I answer. No— em- phatically. No." S, 0.— Excuse me if I say, I do not think your statement sufficiently clear. Children, you say, are " members of the church of Christ upon earth," — " are in a gracious state",— and that " of such are the Kindom of Heaven"— yet you assert they are not "members of the visible church;" then, pray, what is their relation to the visible church of Christ ? A. N.—" There is doubtless existent, w^hat is in- tended by the visible and the invisible, or more I n. Relation of Children to tlu^ Vmhle ■ ^ properly spoaWng the ^P:^:'^;^i^TZ tares .peak of -j^'f ['"':- ^^ .^^e. distinct or- «evon clrurehes m Asia ; '«^^^^^^^ ^.^, ,Uureh. ^ani.ations,as so o.auy P^'*" "^ '' . ,;„,,,, taken in like manner the whole ol *1"^; P" ,' j^,^ j, together, -n«tit,Ue the^.u^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ .^ .^ ^^^^^^ the visible ehuvch of God upo e- ' ^^ ^j^^ ir, the Ugliest sen.^ *° '''^'ftsruembers possess «i,htofGod douhtle^^^^^^^^^ Body of but a nominal connexion v .^^^^^ •^sir;. •: t srf\£:xro^^ ' r'' of Christ ih tne av ,„.^ i u- in smr tnal nnion with the Sa lour. lUc i* |,,,u,nns, includes ,,e title of. '.nrf P--;- ^* I, " ^u' .nend.er- only an accepted and ^2 f B^dv ' the 'llorise' ^>^tti;"t::^-ofaltandt and the ^P"""*^ J" j^ the safetv, the perma- """^•*:dTlS'ori'tri..mph;so often and nence, and the Jinai ^i Scriptnres. Now, of this cluircn interest '" tUe <-:'^"": :[,ars aeeeptan..e and salvation, are in a state of 8"^» ^ "^ J ^ uie'. In "« and of consequenc=c., h" '« ^"^^^ ^^^ „,,„,i,ers «''- «r 'r ^ o;ircl reh relationship do of the church. 0'"°"", of no other church " ; "Ian takconftLdlywe may. as hundreds r!nS4ttothi..,nattcr;hut,aflirrnitwho.r.a, de 'he Scrip- s ; as the istinct or- lo cliuvch. ns, taken l%is is 1 it is not, . I. In the ers possess ;al Body of the church he ' saved,' itiial union ,' to which s, inchides Iv rneniher- le 'House,' belongs the , the perma- so often and ■f Scriptures, ers ; and all their interest on ; as they id salvation ; life'. In JW iits niemhers iationship do , other church ify we may, -. as hundreds mit whomav, Church of Christ, Explained and Vindicated 27 the thin-^ is simply impossible that infants can be memb' r- ^ f the church in any other sense." ,S'. 0. — I confess, Algernon, your earnestness of spirit and vigor of expression have veiy mu(^h in- creased since you read the pamphlet to Avhicli you recently referred; yet I cannot say that in every itistance your positions are better es- tablished or your arguments more conclusive. You say that children are members of the invisible or spiritual church, hut that they are not, cannot be, nor need they be, members of the visible church. You institute, very properly, a distinction between those who are but norninalhj members of the church, and others who 'are so really and spiiitualhj; hut allow me to ask you, does it form a part of God's plan, so fur as the scriptures guide us on the subject, that there should be a spiritual portion of the church of Christ upon earth, separate from, and having no connection with the visible church? You have said, and truly, that children are, as are all like them, and only such, of " the Kingdom of Heaven,'' But what authority can you plead for assuming that in that kingdom are two separate, totally and necessari- ril) distinct portions,— not one of norninaKand the other of real christians, but both e ^spiritual members: members in the highest scriptural sci^e ? Not even between the nominal and the real (adult) christian is there authority from the Holy Scriptures for a line of distinction such as you draw ; hut between spir- hual members, members in the highest sense, to institute a line, so that the one can not, need not pass 28 The Relation of Children to the Visihle to the other, is to go not only heyond any statemciit of scripture, but I must add, even '=o"t™;y /« ''^ verrloUerand spirit. Are not the words taken rom St. Mark's Gospel, and used by our ministers when- ever they perform the rite of baptism, fully m point here '' " And they brought young children to him, that he should touch the.n: and his disciples rebu- ked tliem that brought thevn. But when .lesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, suffer the little children to come unto me, and iorbicl them not : for of such is the Kingdom of God. Ver- ier I say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the Kh.^dom of God as a little ..hild, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them." From this passage of Scripture is it not clear beyond contradh'tion, that while children have a .rracious connection with Christ, are spiritually members of his Kingdom, and susceptible o receiv- in.^ his blessings, that that relation was declared a. a Visible as well ps a spiritual one 1 The mode in which they were brought to Christ was public ; the. mode of reception was public ; the bestowmeut of blessings upon them was public ; and the use which Christ made of the act by which the chiUlrcn were brought to hi»n, was to illustrate important prin- ciples of his visible church or Kingdom, of which He declared children were members. The authouty of the Saviour in this instance must be regarded as directly opposed to your idea of denying cl.ildren a place in the visible church of Christ. Again- statement ary to its ikcu from ers when- y in point n to him, pies rebu- Jesus sa^v nto them, and forbid ^od. Ver- receive the I not enter us, put his L not clear ren have a spiritually le of receiv- declared as he mode in lublic ; their ;towmcut ol e use which liUlren were ortant prin- m, of which lie authority ! regarded as ig children a Again — Church of Christ, Explaintd and Vindicated. 29 We lead not only of the churches in Asia, as you have intimated, but also of churches in houses, see l^omans 16 : 5, 1 Cor. 16 : 19, Col. 4 : 15, Phil. 2: and the law of the kingdom of God — the visible church, as bearing upon this latter application of the term church, and in reference to children, is, " children obey your parents in the Lord : for this is right. — honor thy father and mother ; which is the first commandment with promise ; that it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth." Then as to fathers — " and, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the imrivire and admonition of the Lord." Here are laws belonging to the kingdom of God, and relating to members in that kingdom ; but could these laws be carried out in the one case or in the other, but as individuals referred to are members of the visibly church ? assuredly not : and if parents are bound to train their children according to the laws of Christ's Kingdom, and children are capable of such treatment, need such treatment, and should have it ; then in this instance, as in that in which they were brought to Christ for his blessing, are they seen to be members of the visible church. And further, if children are bound to " obey" their '• pa- rents in the Lord", and to " honour" their "father and mother" ; and that as early as they art capable ot doing either the one or the other, then to say that they are not, cannot be, nor need, they be, members of Christ's visible church, is to sav that which is not n •'. U'l' 30 The Relation of adtdren to the Visible scrinturally tnie : and being false must be " con- trary to reason", and ongUt to be to " eommon sense." ^ iV. Notwithstanding your strong remon- strance I must maintain the position I I'ave laid down, and in further supporting my views thereon, "I quote in place here the following sensibe re- marks from Dr. Wood, of Andover, U. S It can never be consistent to regard infant children as members of the church, in the peculiar sense la ,vhich adult believers are members ;. /or o/?te rela- tion they are wanifestly imopahle. Nor can .t be implied that baptized .-hildren can ever become members of the church in this sense, on any lowei- terms than those which are pres(-nted to otliers.- Thev can be permitted to sustain this peculiar re- lation only on the condition of their exhibiting the character "of real piety. Still it is clear that baptiz- ed children bear a real and very endearing relation to the church. And allhough they are not at pres- ent capable of being members of the chur-h (the visible clmrch>, they will at length, ^nk,s ihnr own wickedness prevent, become active and fliithfnl mem- bers. Such is the design of the economy under which thcv are placed ; and such we m:iy hope will 1hrou"-h the divine mercy, ordinarily be the happy result"' Dr W. adds-' Thus the relation of bap- tized children to the church is not an imaginary or unintelligible relation, but one which is real and obvious ; securing to them a special prospect of ob- be " con- common CT rcmon- ]»avc laid s thereon, nsible re- . « It can lildren as sense in f this rela- can it be er become 1 ani/ lower 3 others. — :)CcnUar re- libiting the hat baptiz- w^j relation not at pres- IniF'h (the ss their own thful mem- omv under iv hope will 3 the happy lion of bap- magi nary or is real and jspect of ob- Church of Christ, Explained and Vindicated. 31 taining its spiritual and eternal blessings.' This is the true and Scriptural relationship of childern, of all children, to the church of God— a relationship including every necessary good, and exactly suited to their present unconscitas state and manifest in- capacity. Where the authority, then, contraiy to reason and connnon sense, for regarding infants members of an active, repenting, believing, self- denying, working church ^ Where ? nowhere but in the mere imaginings of men." 6'. O.— Really, Algernon, your valorous earnest- ness amuses me. you certainly have risen to " the heroics," and but that the subject is of so important a nature I should scarcely restrain myself from a little merrinient at your expense. Your attitude is at once so warlike and defiant that were it not for the bulwark which the multitude of worthies in our own church and as well in the various churches of Christ from the days of the Apostles to the present supply me, surmounted above and sustained be- neath as I beliexe they all are by both Scripture and reason, I do not know how I could face you. But surveying these, and the firmness of their founda- tion I am enboldened to say, I think you have been unfortunate in quoting- from even so high an author- ity as Dr. Wood. A Congregationalist, and there- fore a Calvinist, could scarcely have written other- wise. To have given what I consider the scriptur- al, and therefore the truthful vieAV of the subject, would have loosened so many joints of this Calvin- istic system as to have endangered, if not to have 32 The Relation of Children to the Visible destroyed the whole superstmcture. We may well ask for evidence from other quarters and especially, as all the Dr. has hitherto given (as quoted by you) is mere assertion. Still the Dr's. evidence is scarcely as much in your favor as you seem to imagine. lie says " it can never be consistent to regard infant children as members of the church, in the peculiar sense in which adult believers are members ; for of this re- lation they are manifestlij incapable:' Tlie Dr. is perfectly right here ;— who has imagined that infant children could " be members ol* the church in the peculiar sense in wliich adult believ(^rs are mem- bers?" Who? None but those bereft of their senses. 2'hcj are members because they can be " active, repenting, believing, self-denying, wovking mem- bers ; but inasmuch as infants can .; lone of these thino-s— that they ''are ?nanifef>tl i/ incapable "—ihaxe- fore,^they cannot be members " in the peculiar sense in which adult believers are me nbers." But are they therefore in no sense members of the visible church ? Dr. W. has not said— no. Further, the Dr. says, « They can be admitted to sustain this peculiar relation only on condition of their exhibiting the character of real piety." That is, the church must be satisfied that they are the possessors of real piety. Well then, as you can assure the Dr. that children ''are in a gracious state" are "saved," "justified," " in spiritual union with the saviour,"— are of" the , - y of Christ," are actually nay well specially, I by you) much in ; says " it t children ir sense in )f this re- he Dr. is liat infant reh in the are mem- 3ir senses. ; " active, i\g niern- le of these ',"— there- uliai' sense ' But are the visible dmitted to ondition of ty." That ley are the s you can rious state" an with the ire actually Church of Christ, Explained and Vindicated. 33 of the "House" of Christ— the « spouse of Christ" —to whom "belongs the unity, the oneness, the purity, the safely, the permanence, and the final glorious triun ph, so often and variously the glowing theme of the Holy Scriptures," you can truthfully assure him that any objections he may have against the formal recognition of children (infants) as members of the visible church on the supposed ab- sence of real piety must be withdrawn, and his theory thrown to the four winds of heaven :— and your support from that somce-nil. But allow me to tell you, my friend, there are several fallacies ly- ing at the foundation of what you seek to maintain, and I will now take the liberty of placing them be- fore you. The first is that you assume that other than the ordinary and divinely constituted channel, the visible church of Christ, exists for the conveyance of grace to the world, the young even as the old. We should bear in mind, that while Christ is the Head and only source of grace, the church, the visi- ble church, is the only appointed medium for its com- munication. God works by means; those means are his church so far as human instrumentalitj is concerned. One important means is instruction, but the church conveys this instruction and that to those who are, or ought to be, and might be, among its visible (certainly not invisible,) members. Another means is discipline, (and the former would scarcely be perserved in if the latter were rejected) but the church constructs and enforces that discip- line. ■f > ! 34 neRdationofChiU'rentotluViMe ■ *• • ^vltncssed in our Sabbath Scl.ool How tnlly .s ;;- \X^;t,cn move so by other organizations, ""l " « ^ , j.aivine inlluenco; Imt important n'^'"^;*. *-; ;„ „„d ,hrousl> the means this is given «"'"""'y' ' „„a by tlic c(,nnex- the visible ''""- '„^^S^: Titv/extraorainary. ionofcaehandalllhcttwm ^,,„ Have no- 0, cxeeptional cases or m - • ^j,^. ,hi„,tocl.inaa.eus . a '^ ,,.^ ^,, ,,, tion is, what IS tlie nilt .101 ^^^^ .„„to regulate our J'jJ' ^^^^j,,,, of ignor- painfuUy aoes llio woiia, "' ^^^ '" ,,.,, rineiplc "- r:f :it'''F:;n:rs%ion^t.sevi- agamst the churUi ^^,^,>ive instruction, may dent,tliat as '^1"'^^«". ',,''; iipUne, and may be be brought under scnptuu. d P '^^^ ^,^ ,^^^^, .ubjeets of ^^'-";';;J; j'i 'Ihicl. ample provis- as much as any f ""•"';' ',,^is either in connex- ion has been vnade '^^^'^l j,,^,,, of those io„ with -1""'^ ^-^cf Vau peak"; and as all this is i„ a house o'-luch St^^auUl^^k . ^^_^ (must be) -'"-^ "J"^,aed as connecced with otherwise than as such members Mother fallacy your theo^ stands c^har^^^^^^^^^^^ i«, that none can be merjef tic v^^^^ less they are capab^;2:i^= -embers." Yo« 'S::Z^S^ emphasis, " where the author- \^ le h School by other ?iico ; hut ic means coiinex- ordhiary, have 110- the ques- i that we IS. How of ignor- prineiplc 1 it is evi- ction, may lul may he I they need iple provis- in connex- , or of those IS all this is icy and pro- nected with onscquently upon eartli. rdin«»" them harged with isible church ^^e, repenting, ihers." You re the author- f^hurch of Christ, Explained and Vindicated. 35 ity, then, contrary to reason and common sense" for believing any other can be? Now to this I answer, many reasons are fuimd in Scrriptnre for things very " contrary to common sense." Common Heme is fre- quently tbund a wonderfully stupid ajid pprverse thing. It cruciliied Christ, persecuted liis followers md has performed a great many silly and disgrace- ful antics in all ages of the world; therefofe, it is not always— nay seldom safe— to appeal to it. And then as to " reason,'' it depends very nm(;h upon that whicli directs it, for its b ung regarded as a safe guide or standard of appeai. It must be acknowl- edged that all adult believers cannot be ahvays ac- tive memberrj of the visible church, for there are times when they are constrained to be quite passive, and it .s evident that when such is the case they can- not be "worki,ig,'' iiny more than they can be "active'' members; but must they then for the time, cease to be recognized as members of the visible church, and rest contented until their powers of activity return, if they ever do, they must simply be visible mem- bers of the invisib^" church? Surely the Scriptural statements which define the Church, or Kingdom of God, are sullieiently plain, see Matt. xiii. 24, 47, and xxv. 1, 13, Rom. ii. 28, 29, &c., as to show, in despite of what the Church may do to prevent it, that within are the nominal and real, or spiritual ; the wise and the unwise ; and that its provisions are so adapted to human circum- stances, that when its members can believe and deny themselves, they are required to do so ; " I i «!• 36 The Relation of Children to the Visible ■ but that when such acts are i.»?l--;;y^^^!l,|J„t' narf either lom youth or infirmities and afB.-tions, part.eitiiei '""J , j^ seeketh not to common to christians, then lie wii« "Tap where he has not .own," gives according to thrnecLsities and the riches of his own g^.ry and not according to ?/^«acts or deeds, rhepn^ cWe by which you refuse children admission mto Ae visible church of Christ, would, in its various fornis of application, restrict its boundcries much more than you appear to be aware. A iV.-Notwithstanding all you suy, friend Sam- uel "l am bound to object most strenuously to the "dea that " baptism admits," that " baptism cnfran- tises." thai baptism "makes" little children mem- bers of the visible church. Now all this is the merest assumption, it is not only uuproven, but ut- terly incapable of proof. The obvious and solid ruth is, that Baptism admits into, or makes of the church, infants and little children, in no sense what- ever Not of the visible church, since as incaimbles Infants cannot be made members of it. You could just as naturally talk of making them members of parliament." c -It would be a sufficient answer to all this to u'se ;our own words and say, " all this is merest assumption; it is not- only unproven, but utteily ; apTble of proof." They are not iiicapable of re- ceivfng blessings flowing through the prayers and supplications of tlie church ; neither are they utterly Incapable of co-operating with that church in re- Ill their mictions, ti not to rdiiig to n glory, he prin- ;ioii into various !S imich nd Sam- ly to the 1 enfran- en meni- is is the 1, but ut- ind solid es of the ise what- ncapables^ low could 3mhers of to all this I is merest (Ut utterly able of re- rayers and ley utterly jrch in re- Church of Christ, Explained and VindicnteiL 37 ceiving its instructions in or 1- to their spiritual and everlasting welfare ; nor are they incapable of doing that, and visibly and audibly,— by which God is glorified ;— for "out of the mouths of babes and suck- lings the Lord has ordained strength." The proof of the contrary is with you, which T apprehend you will not P^tenipt. I am strongly inclined to believe that your eiTor on this great subject is to be found in an attempt to judge of the design and import of baptism to children through the lax practices of the church in reference to baptized children, than a de- termination to estimate it at its full and scriptural value, when with propriety you might insist on the Church's practice being rendered strictly conforma- ble thereto. For allow me to ask you, does not bap- tism admit adults, even though previously convert- ed into the visible church, and thus make them members? And if so does it not enfranchise them with its rights and privileges 1 Of course it does. And if I have shown that the incapability you assert to children of being members of the visible church is an error, then it follows that v/e may con- sider them, even as adults, as being by baptism ad- mitted into the visible church, and enfranchised with its rights without approaching an absurdity great as that of attempting " to make them members of parliament." A. N. — "Circumcision was a 'sign' put upon Abraham and his seed showing them to be a pecu- liar people, under peculiar obligations to God, and entitled them to peculiar blessings. It was a seal 38 The Relation of Children to the Visible of the merciful covenant which actually included th^m, and all covenant good for them. Jnst so Baptism, now, with respect to onr children. It is the sign, and not the means, of spiritual mercies. But it is inquired, 'did circumcision 7nahe children members of the visible church amojig the Jews?' " and! answer "not at all, in the sense of making them members, enfranchising, initiating and admit- ting them into the visible church." S. 0.— Allow me to ask you, has God instituted any duty, which, when rightly performed, will not be found to be u ''means of spiritual mercies V How much more then one of the only two sacraments of his gospel church— his kingdom upon earth ! The facts which your reference to Abraham elicit are, thai circumcision was the sign and seal of the bene- fits to whicit he and his seed were called as the visi- ble church of God upon earth ; they were thus seen «to be a peculiar people, under peculiaT obligations to God, and entitled to peculiar blessings." That young and old were regarded members ol this visi- ble church is shown hom the following statement : « This is my covenant, which ye shall keep between me and you and thy seed after thee: Every man child among you shall l)e eircamicised." " And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you"-— "And my covenant" (its sign) " shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the un- circumcised man-child, whose ilesh of his foreskin i not circumcised, th sold shall Ir cut off from his ^.'^^)ple" (the visible church with all its rights a . li le Church of Christ, Explained and Vindicated. 39 included Just so 311. It is mercies. ' children Jews?'" f making nd admit- institut(?d , \\ill not si" How •nments of irlh! The elicit are, ftbe bene- asthevisi- ? tlms seen obligations 3S." That »I this visi- statement : ep between Every man ft' " And he ised among ' shall be in And the un- his foreskin off fro a his s rights a * privileges) "he" (not his father merely) "hath broken my covenant." A. N. — By admitting your statement, I cannot say that I am bound to your conclusion ; for I be- lieve " If a Jew neglected to circumcise his child, this important badge of God's chosen nation would be wanting, and, in effect, the child would be cut off from Israel, as a violator of the covenant, by de- spising the seal of it ; not 2)ersonal,howeveY,hnt the parent for hitn ; yet would the child be still ac- cepted of God in the covenant of grace, and consti- tute a part of the congrega'ion of Israel." " And as the covenant of grace is one and the same in all ages, as not a stake is removed, not a cord is broken, children are still entitled to the sign of God's people — baptism by water ;— the neglect of the parent to secure for them that enjoined sign, will place them in circumstances of deprivation, so far as the future benefits of the ordinance are concerned ; but certainly such neglect on the part of another atfects not the children for evil in the sight of God." S. 0. — It excit'^s in inc not a little curiosity to know how you would make it appear that a soul might be " cut off from his people," and yet "con- stitute a part of the congregation of Israel;" how he could be placed in " circumstances of deprivation, and yet not be affected " for evil in the sight of God; in what sense a person may suffer " deprivation,'* " so far as the future benefits of the ordinance are concerned," by " the neglect of the parent to secure j» » 40 The Relation of Children to tfi^ Visible for him that enjoined sign," and yet make it incon- sistent with the economy of :j?race for him to sutier a "deprivation" of those benefits now. Tliesc, I think, you must admit to he contradictions which it is important to your argument to reconcile. That the neglect or contumacy of the parent to secure circumcision then, or baptism now, for the cliild, would not denude it of its acceptance with God through Christ, or of its inheritance in heaven, were it to die in infancy, all will admit ; yet must it be reo-arded as a reprehensible omission to neglect to formally introduce a child into a higher and i^eculiar relation through a significant and expressive rite, divinely instituted, and by which relation it is in- vested with prqreminent privileges. Circumcision was the formal recognition of the covenant, rendered indispensable by God on pain of excision from the congregation of his people, and, with such act, a de- privation, present as well as future, of those bles- sings peculiar to that covenant, and by which his people were to be distinguished. The covenant be- ing the same under each dispensation, it follows, that what a neglect of circumcision then led to, a neglect of baptism now must also entail. Again— See that adult dweller in Mesopotamia ; he lives under the patriarchal dispensation ; he is moral and upright, and, according to the light he possesses, he « fears God and works righteousness." Will not he be accepted of God 1 But does he stand equal to the pious Jew, who, under his dispensation, has walked in covenant relation with God ; or will he hie it incon- 1 to suffer These, I )ns which le. That to secure the child, with God Lven, were must it he neglect to id jxiculiar essive rite, 3n it is in- cumcision t, rendered w from the 1 act, a de- those bles- which his )venant he- , it follows, n led to, a , Again — a ; he lives s moral and osscsses, he Will not he id equal to nsation, has or will he Church of Chriat, Explained and V-ndkalcd. 41 rise to the same status of glory ? Assuredly not : no more than will the latter, eitlior in time or eter- nity, reach the position of a real Christian. The one has one talent of privilege, the other two, and the latter five; while tlie principle of rcAvard is --" For unto every one that hnth shall given, and he shall have abundance." But that which ks true of individuals in different dispensations, is true also ot individuals under the same dispensation. He who, according to providential or parental disability, is not possessed, nor can he be, of equal ligjit and pri- vilege v/ith others, but nevertheless improves what he has, is now, and will be in final judgment ac- cepted of God. Whereas, he whose lot is of a supe- rior caste, and is faithful, and again a third, who is even more favoured, so that he lives in the full en- dowments of gospel light and privilege, will rise both here and hereafter in proportion to their talents and fliithfulness in improving them. Therefore ns they have differed in privileges, so they will difler in the rewards which are graciously bestowed; and let no man's eye be evil because God is good, and acts according to his own supreme right and infinite wisdom ; for " Just and right is he." In full accordance with the principles involved in the preceding remarks o,:ght the baptism oi chil- dren to be viewed. A child to whom bnptism is denied, under the supposition that it has no inheri- tance in the kingdom of God until it can believe, and thus claim it by a personal act of its own, is as one that has received but one talent in our present i ) i 'till 42 The Relation of Children to the Visihle di.po„«,tion ; n .second mny be viewed as receiving two, who is bapti/.c preu^t interest in Christ, or the offieers of his .wUe Church : insoimicli so, that any advantage to be derived'from the act of baptism is reversionary, and to be loolced fiir only when the P'-^"" f^;" !;;: come "an active, repenting, believing, «f f*:"y § member of a working- clunch." Bnt a third is bap- tized; bronglit for the sacrament by parents and to a chnrch, who ali regard it as - -f;''"*' '^ ^TS eleanshig and renewing infh-.ence of the Holy Spin , „ ISO as a seal of the covenant of redemption l.>y which is gnaranteed to the person receiving it, the provision of gospel mercy in its fnlncss, to be applied as needed and sought for, in believing prayer by it, or or it. A donation of the covenant grace is believmgly asked for in the periimnanec of the rite ; and subsequently, instruction and prayer, with suitable diseii.line, aro employed for the training cf the child both by the parents and the church, the latter feeling as the loi- mer that additional obligations were credited in the ordinance administered to the child, and m which they both were interested parth-s. Bnt can all tins take place in reference to this last child and no re- sults mark its condition which would raise it above the other two1 Surely this should not be imag- ined And while svieh a course of duty may be pursued, ought it not to be so"! Let no professing Christian indulge the idea, much less SI<^ll pi. 'hie rccoiviiij^ ccof^nized on, but ot de it any- vcii it any ' his visihlc no-c to be irersionary, oil can bc- ^If-tlcnying lird isbap- tN and to a the needed ^uly Spirit; n by which le provision d as needed or for it. A ini>l\' asked bscqueutly, ^ciphne, are both by the y as the ibr- -ated in the id in which can all this d and no re- lise it abov(^ ot be inia^- ' duty may ? Let no , much less Church of Christ, Explained and Vindicated. 43 act upon it, that Avhelher a child be baptised or not, its spirit4^ial condition is not alfected tor aVA m the sight of the Lord ; for these words of Jehovah to Abraham have a startling meaning, and that as bearing upon the child itself : — ^^And the uncircum- cisedmart child ivhose Jleah of his fo'^''es/iin is not cir- cumcised, that soul shall he cut ojffrom his people ; he hath broken my covenant.^'' But if the child were circumcised, and thus became a member of the congregation of Israel, then it wovdd as a necessary consequence, be regarded as a member of that visi- ble church, and become per.sonally, and at once interested in every promise, by which every duty could be discharged, and every privilege secured becoming the peculiar people and witnessing church ol the Ijord. A. N. — I must still contend that " Baptism is the sign" that eluldren and believers are Christ's, not the wai) to Clnist. 8. O. — That is true of cliildren who, beermse of their unconditional interest in Christ, according to the purposes of infinite love, must not be left in peril of eternal death because of the neglect of others, and in which neglect tliev liaA^c no voluntarv con- nection. It is also true in all exceptional cases of adult believers, such as Cornelius, who v/as blessed with a communication of the Holy Spirit before ho was, or could have been, baptized by the Apostle. God can make what exceptions to liis own rule lie plciises, but the ride and not the exception is that :!|. m ll : 44 The Relation of Children to the ViMe on which an argument should bo based. If tliis principle is admitted, then the Apostk^ Peter's di- rection to the inquirers on tlie day of Pentecost is in point here, and baptism is seen in the very li^ht you repudiate. "Men and brethren what shall we do?" inquired the etifnest thronj?. The reply was—" Re- pent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Here then, bap- tism is distinctly seen as a "wa?/ to Christ;" and what follows as distinctly intimates, that the same act performed for our children, if it does not so unite them to Christ as to ellect their safety from death were they to die in infancy, yet that it obtains for them that measure of the spirit's influence peculiar to the Gospel dispensation, into which by the act of baptism it was formally introduced; for the Apos- tle adds, " the promise," tliat is of the Holy Spirit, " is unto you, and to your children.^^ A. A^.— If what you demand were admitted, viz. *' that the baptized children of our people are mem- bers of our church, tlicn of course the same is true of all the other churches of the Saints; the idea ac- cords with Romish and Puseyitish views, exactly. It only remains for us to adopt it practically, and Methodism will soon become as perfect a id as spir- itual as they are." S. 0. — Excuse me my friend, " It remains for ns to adopt it practically", as with our views of the re- lation of children to the church of Christ, we are bound to do ; and instead of drifting- towards Roman- \ihlc Church of Chris,, Explained and Vindicated. 45 I. If this Peter's di- tecost is in y li^ht you ill we do?" vvas — " Kc- [ the name nd ye shall ) then, bap- hrist ;" and it the same lot so unite (Voni death obtains for Lce peculiar by the act r the Apos- [loly Spirit, tnitted, viz. i are niein- ime is true he idea ac- ivs, exaetly. tically, and a id as spir- nains f()r us vs of the re- rist, we are irdsKoman- ism or Puseyism, we shall move straight forward to the fidl dimensions of a Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. It would surprise me much to learn that so little dilference existed between Methodism and Romanism, or its pitiful mimic puseyi .m, that a practical treatment of children as members of our church through baptism, would break the barrier, and let us into one or other of them. No, no, my friend, this h what some will call a ''Ruse de guerre,'' a move more in name than in reality to deter us from pursuing a road you would not we should travel in. Between Methodism and Ko- nianism there exists an impassable gulf, a.id you may depend upon it, that if the thing you feared was in any measure an attempt at bridging that gulf, I would render but little assistance in that direction. But let us do our duty to the young as well as to the old, undeterred by bug-bear'; ;^"^ni whatever quarter they may come. It is evident that our Church in England is awa- king to the importance of a more thorough action here,— hence the institution by them of Catechumen Classes for children. Still, I think an improvement even on their plan, is both easy and desirable. If meetings similar to our class-meetings,adapted to the age and condition of our children were instituted, and which all should be required to attend weekly, as in the former case, when instruction, with singing and prayer could be entered upon, I apprehend a more efficient means would be employed for the training of our children than any yet in use. By this means a I I vm 46 The Relation of Children to the Imhle, ^c. 1h()rou"-li oversight could be rnaiiituined, and as well asanopportaiiity of transfcvmif? them to the regular classes Avheii their spirit and conduct would j'jstify such an act. Thus we might preserve our youth to the church, secure our church trom the evils of un- scriptural membership, and not less from the grave charge of inconsistency, viz, of receiving our chii- dren'^formallv into our church by baptism, and then, comparativeiv at least, treating them with neglect. ■ .^' nd as well he regular Lild j'Jstify ir youth to vi\^ of un- the grave j^ our ehil- , and then, h neglect. [