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1 2 3

SPEECHES

OF THE

HON. G. E. CARTIER

ON SUBMITTING THE

MILITIA BILL

AND THK RESOLUTIONS CONCERNING THE

FORTIFICATIONS

OTTAWA
PRINTED BY G. E. DESBARATS

1868.

. i

FIRST READING

•H

OF A BILL RESPECTING THE

MILITIA AND DEFENCE

OP THE

I 'm

DOMINION OF CANADA.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

March 31si 1868.

The Hon. Mr. C ARTiEU, in introducing the above Bill, said he
hoped that it would be favourably received on both sides of the
house. The idea had been thrown out a few days ago that the
Bill when introduced would act as a torpedo on his side of the
house. He did not anticipate anything of the kind. His hon.
friend from Ottawa had declared last night that the Minister
of Militia was always audacious, semper audax ; he would
remind his hon. friend of a quotation (he believed from Virgil,)
audaces fortuna juvat — (laughter) — and he did not expect that
this measure would upset the Government, as the militia mea-
sure of 1862 upset himself and his colleagues in that year.
This measure he looked upon as necessary to complete our
national system, as a Confederation. As he had remarked on
former occasions, we had in this Confederation three elements
necessary to constitute a nation — the personal, territorial and
maritime elements ; but when those three elements of national
strength had been obtained there was still another necessary 1o
crown the whole — the military element. (Hear, hear). No
nation on earth could pretend to be a nation until it attained
the military element, or the power of defence. He did not say

that we should have a military organisation with a view to
aggression ; we had sufficient scope at home for our ambition.
Our constitution allowed us to extend our Dominion from the
Atlantic to the Pacific, and he was as desirous as any one could
be that, with a view to this, we should as soon as possible
acquire the Morthwest Territory, and get British Columbia
brought into the Confederation. Now, with regard to the mea-
sure he was about to introduce, he might say he had felt it a
duty incumbent on him before submitting it to the house, to
make himself acquainted with the militialaws of Nova Scotia and
New Brunswick. New Brunswick, he supposed, contained a
population of 300,000 and Nova Scotia 400,000, Upper Canada,
he supposed, had now a population of between 1,601,000 and
1,700,000 and Quebec between 1,300,000 and 1,400,000.
Although Ontario, and Quebec had thus by much the larger pro-
portion of the inhabitants of the Dominion, still the Maritime
Provinces furnished a very important element of defence in their
sea-faring population. If we ever had a battle to fight there was
no doubt that it would have to be fought to a large extent on the
sea, and then, though Ontario and Quebec would have a greater
number of men to send into the field in the shape of infantry,
artillery and cavalry, still, in the matter of maritime defence,
the Maritime Provinces would take the first rank. After this
preface, he was now prepared to approach the subject
matter of the measure. As he had already said, he had
considered not only the law of the late Province of Canada,
but the militia laws of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, and
he might add Prince Edward Island, and he had given direc-
tions that all those laws should be distributed in connection
with this Bill. He had included those of Prince Kdward
Island, because he hoped we might ere long welcome it
as oae of the Provinces comprising this Union. In preparing
this measure he had also had the advantage of the report made
by the gallant Colonel at the head of the Militia of the Province
of Canada, Colonel MacDougall, who had prepared in the
shape of a Bill his views as to Militia organization of the
country. He (Mr. Cartier) had had the benefit of those views
to aid him in bringing this measure before the House. He
might also say that he had derived some benefit from the con-
sideration of the measure which in 1862 upset his government,
(laughter). It was due to Col. Lysons and the gentlemen
associated with him by His Excellency as a commission to
report on the militia laws, that he should say that the measure
famed on their report had been a great help to him. (Laughter).
The Bill which he had now the honour to introduce to the
House divided the militia into active and reserve militia.

The active militia was to be compose d of volunteers, of the
regular militia and of the marine militia. The reserve militia
would be composed of the men who would not be called to
serve in any one of these capacities. The militia in general
would be composed of the male inhabitants of the Dominion
between 18 and 60 years of age, who would all be liable to be
called out in case of a lev4e en masse. The militia would be
divided into four classes. The first would comprise all male
inhabitants between the ages of 18 and 30, unmarried, or
widowers without children ; the 2nd class would comprise
those from 30 to 45 unmarried or widowers without children ;
the 3rd class would comprise male inhabitants from 18 to 43
married or widowers having children ; the 4th class would
comprise the very respectable class consisting of male inhabi-
tants from 45 to 60 years of age. The Bill permitted the organi-
zation of volunteers as under the existing laws. A certain time
would be allowed within which volunteers might enrol them-
selves, and then if the number was not sufficient the bill pro-
posed for the filling up of service Companies, so that the number
of trained men throughout the Dominion should not be less than
40,000, while at the same time the officers of the reserve Militia
or such proportion of them as the Governor General might fix,
should be obtained to train along with the service
company men. If any regimental division did not fur-
nish its all quota of active service men by means of
volunteerii g, then the necessary number of service men should
be drawn by ballot from the regimental division. The Bill
provided that the Dominion should be divided into nine
military districts, of which New Brunswick should form one
and Nova Scotia one, while Quebec should be divided into
three, and Ontario into four districts. At the head of each
district there would be a District Deputy Adjutant General,
with a sufficient staff to help him to see that the militia laws
were properly carried out in his district. The Bill also pro-
vided that the Dominion should be divided into such number
of regimental divisions as may be thought proper, with power
to increase or alter them whenever circumstances might appear
to require it. If it should be determined that the Dominion
should be divided into two hundred regimental divisions, then,
according to our present population, Ontario would have 88,
Quebec, 68, Nova Scotia 24, and New Brunswick 20. Besides
the regimental divisions there would be a topographical com-

f)any division. The Bill provided for the appointment of a
ieutenant-colonel and two majors for every regimental division,
with captains, lieutenants, ensigns, and such non-commissioned
officers as might be necessary. From the regimental divisions
I*

would be furnished in time of poace such service companies 1o
be trained as would make up the number of 40,000 njen, as at
present. Judging from the amount paid for drill, he believed
the active volunteer force of the late Province of Canada was
between 20,000 and 24,000 men. At the time of the Fenian
raid there were about 31,000 enrolled volunteers, but the number
had diminished since. According to the statistics he had
received from New Brunswick, the number of volunteers there
was about 2,000. As regarded Nova Scotia he had no accu-
rate data. The present measure was to some extent compul-
sory ; the volunteering system was left, but if, under that
system, the number was not brought up to 40,000, then the
ballot would be brought into requisition ; so that each regi-
mental division should furnish its quota. To make up the
number to 40,000, Upper Canada would have to furnish 17,500 ;
Lower Canada 13,500 ; New Brunswick 4,000 ; and Nova
Scotia 5,000. Each regimental division would furnish its
quota, not according to its strength in population, but according
to its actual strength on the roll of men enrolled for militia
service. If the ballot should be necessary in any regimental
division, the service company men would be selected, — 1st.
from unmarried men between the ages of 18 and 30, and if
these were not sufficient, then from the unmarried men between
30 and 45 ; next, from the married men between 18 and 45 ;
lastly, although he supposed that would never be necessary,
from those between 45 and 60. As regarded the organization
of the regimental divisions, the enrolment would be made by
the Captain of each Company, with the help of the other
officers and non-commissioned officers. The Captain was
empowered to call at every house, to make such inquiry with
regard to the militia men owing militia duty, and to obtain
such other information as would enable him to make out his
rolls. This duty would not be repeated each year, but only
each alternate year. The cumbrous system of calling upon
the assessors in each municipality to make the enrolment, had
proved unsuccessful, the returns not being accurate. Under
the existing system there was the inconvenience of tiiree
operations ; first, a return by the assessors ; second, a drawing
from these returns by the Sheriffs in Upper Canada, and Regis-
trars in Lower Canada, of the active service battalions ; and
third, the going from house to house by the captains of each
company in the service battalion to enrol his men. Under this
law some 80,000 or 90,000 men had been drawn, but no use
had ever been made of them. Another defect of the existing
laws was that it did not provide machinery for showing what
was the strength of the non-service militia. Of all the pro-

ll'

''i

vinces the one which had the best militia 'aw was New
Brunswicii, and the best re&uhs had been obtained fronn the
working of the law in that Province. The Bill he now intro-
duced provided that the service companies enrolled for active
service should seive for only two years, and that the volunteers
should serve three years. The training to be exacted every year
would be not less than eight days, and not more than sixteen,
but any corps or company could drill on any days beyond this
limit which might be agreeable to them, or which might be
directed by their commanding officer. As regarded drill days
not comprehended in the sixteen days, only the active militia
men residing withing two miles of the place of training should
be required to come. The lieutenant-colonels, majors and cap-
tains of regiments would have to be resident within their own
regimental divisions. They would thus know their own men,
and the men would receive explanations of the system from
officers residing among themselves, in whom they would have
confidence. In 1862 there was an enrolment made under the
law then existing, which gave for Ontario and Quebec 305,000
militia men, between the ages of 18 and 60, besides 25,000
volunteers. As a number of battalions did not make returns,
an approximate estimate for these brought up the number to
475,000. Since that time the number must have increased to
600,000. New Brunswick now returned 43,000 ; and the
number in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia combined must
be 100,000 — giving a grand total for the whole Dominion of
700,000 men able to defend the country. (Hear hear). Of'
these, and the fact was an important one, the number of sea-
faring men and sailors must be as at least 70,000, of whom
between 40,000 and 60,000 were furnished by Nova Scotia i
and New Brunswick. Mr. C artier proceeded to enlarge on
this point at some length, shewing that the maritime power of
England, as compared with that of France, rested on the
number of its seafaring population. He quoted a remark of
the first Napoleon, that he could build any number of war
vessels, but what he was deficient in was sailors to man them,
and pointed out with regard to England, that if all her navy
and mariners w^ere destroyed she had enough seafaring men
employed in her commerce to man a new navy. The fact that
we had 70,000 seafaring men here must be regarded, therefor,
as a very important element in our military strength, iiy this
Bill the captain, in making his enrolment, would have to
distinguish between the Militia proper and the marine Militia.
It has been stated in the Lower Provinces, in order to excite
the prejudices of a portion of the inhabitants, that their Militia
would be brought up to defend us here. Well! as regarded the

peafaring men and sailors, he would say they would not be
obliged to undertake any Military duty, because the best
training ihey could have was their actual employment on the
sea or on our inland waters. This measure did not profess to
organize the Marine Militia. That was a matter left hi regu-
lation by the Governor in Council. At the same time ample
provision was given to encourage the organization of naval
corps and companies. He believed his Nova Scotia and New
Brunswick friends would find that under the organization
which he now submitted, they would be subjected to less
arduous militia duties than they were now subjected to by
their own laws. He was told that there was a provision in
the Nova Scotia Militia law which enabled the Governor to
order the whole population owing militia duty to drill any
number of days in the year. By the last order, if he was cor-
rectly informed, the whole militia men in Nova Scotia were
obliged to undergo militia training during five days in the
year. That is to say, between 35,000 and 40,000 men were
called to do militia duty at great inconvenience. Under the
present bill, Nova Scotia would only be required to furnish
5,000 men for actual militia duty. Mr. Cartier then explained
that the division according to ages in the present bill, he had
taken from the measure for reorganizing of the army which
had recently passed the French chambers. He was satisfied
that among the young men from 18 to 30, they would find a
sufficient number to complete the 40,000 men required to drill,
even supposing there should be no volunteer organization. The
result would be that every two years there would be 40,000
young men disseminated amongst all portions of Canada, after
having acquired considerable familiarity with the uSe of arms,
and whose training would be found valuable if necessity should
ever again require them to be called out for actual service. As
he had already stated, not only the 40,000 active service men,
with their officers, would be t/ained, but all the officers of the
reserve militia would be required to drill with them, and would
thus be better qualified for command, if in case of war or other
emergency a greater number of the militia than those 40,000
should be called out. If there were 200 regimental divisions,
there would be thirty officers to each regiment, making the
number of non-service officers to be trained 6,000 ; if there
were 300 regimental divisions the number would be 9,000, and
so on. The active service men with their officers and the non-
service officers would all be paid at the same rate for drill^-
50 cents a day. The Bill of 1862 was defeated because it was
objected that it was too expensive, too large; and yet when the
member for Cornwall introduced a measure, the first thing he

asked was an appropriatioa of $250,000 for the organization of
volunteers — the largest amount which had ever been appropri-
ated for militia service up to that time. In the following year, the
member for Cornwall introduced a measure providing for a still
larger organization and requiring still larger expenditure. Since
then, very much larger expenditures had become necessary —
first, to prevent a recurrence of proceedings like the St.
Albans' raid, and next, to meet the Fenians ; but he
believed no portion of the inhabitants had grudged those
expenditures. The Fenian raid had given ns, in a measure,
that education as to the question of defence, which wn
had not when the Bill of 1862 was rejected. He was bound
here to pay a compliment and he did it with great pleasure to
an officer ol* the militia, appointed by the member for Cornwall,
he alluded to Lieut. Colonel Powell. The experience we had
had of the services of that worthy officer had proved to him that
no better appointment to the office of Deputy Adjutant-General
of Militia could have been made. (Hear.) He went on to
express his opinion that the Imperial Government would be
satisfied with the number which this bill provided should be
trained for active service. He then enlarged on what might be
accomplished by our 700,000 militia men. Looking at the way in
which the four millions of Southern whites are famishing, where
400,000 fighting men had defended their country for four years
against twenty-four millions of the north who had put into the
field during the war 2,600,000 men, we would be in a far better
position to meet the difficulty than the Southerners, if it should
be our misfortune to face an invasion even from the American
nation, for we would have 700,000 of our own fit to bear arms
besides having the whole power of England at our back and
the sea open to us. (Hear, hear.) In the present bill the
number of exemptions were very limited, only Judges and
Clergy were not liable to bear arms, and one or two other classes.
As regarded Quakers, they would not be required to take part
in anything connected with actual fighting. He went on to
explain that his reason for taking the control of the Militia
Department was because its duties were arduous and he
desired to engage in them. Besides, it was a diversity, and in
his time he had occupied various important positions. He had
had much to do with their educational legislation ; with their
railway legislation ; with the codification of the laws, and with
the appointments to the bench and bar, as was evidenced by
the discussion last night. (Laughter.) Now, he assumed
control of the Militia Department and hoped to give satisfaction
in the discharge of its duties. (Hear and laughter.) Now he
came to the bill of costs — the " to be or not \o be'' he supposed,

B LULLia-j-iam- ' i

»v'

of the whole scheme, and as he approached this portion of the
subject, he warned hon. gentlemen not to place too much
faith in newspaper statements concerning the expenses of the
militia organization. Before going further he desired to call the
attention of the member for Chateauguay to another subject
gerraan to this — fortification. That was a question of money,
and when the bill before the House was discussed on its
second reading, he proposed then to explain the Government ,
measure regarding fortifications. He would state the amount
of money which would need to be expended by the Dominion
to complete the fortifications required of them by the Imperial
Government. He would not say a word as to this expenditure
at present, but would merely ask honourable gentlemen on both
sides of the House not to let themselves be frightened before-
hand — let them wait for his statement, and he was sure they
would be delighted with it. (Laughter.) Before alluding to
the bill of costs, he would lay before the House a statement of
the militia expenditure for the late Province of Canada since
1864 and '65. In that year the appropriation for militia service
was, in round numbers, ^384,000. Then arose the necessity
for reorganizing the militia, in consequence of the St. Albans
raid, and hence the expenditure in that year reached $744,000 ;
and there had to be a vote of credit given in order to cover the
amount expended in excess of the appropriation. In the
year 1865 and 1866, the year of the Fenian invasion, there
was another large and unexpected expenditure for militia
services. The sum voted for that purpose was $470,-
000, while the expenditure amounted to $1,285,000 ; for the
deficiency Parliament had again to give a Bill of indemnity.
Since then hon. gentlemen would be aware the organization
of this iorce had to be kept up to the standard of 1866 in con-
sequence of Fenian movements. Indeed it would appear as
if they were moving all the time. Well, in 1866 and 1867 the
amount appropriated was $1,887,000, and the money actually
spent $1,700,000 ; and now for the present year, that is, from
July last to July next, there was an appropriation necessary
including $140,000 to Nova Scotia, and $80,000 to New
Brunswick ; he could not get from these Provinces an accurate
statement of their expenditure, but estimated it at these figures ;
but including these, an expenditure of $1,148,000 would be
necessary, besides $470,000 for Barrack accommodation, &c.,
necessary, and for the ammunition they bought from the Im-
perial Government. The $1,148,000 was in fact, ordinary ex-
penditure. The whole amount of Military expenditure during
the current year with these claims paid by the Imperial Govern-
ment, and for which they would have to be reimbursed, would

♦

«/

♦

amount to $1,621,000. During the last three years, it would
thus be seen, they had spent on an average more than $1,500,-
000 a year on the militia, but there was something to show to
their credit on account of this large expenditure. The Govern-
ment of Canada had in store, paid for, $457,000 worth of pro-
perty, and in the hands of the militia and volunteers they had
$828,000 clothing, &c. Then they had the value of the drill-
sheds in the two provinces. Upper and Lower Canada, amount-
ing to $81,000. The value of their gunboats was $33,000,
making in all $1,400,000 worth which belonged to the Govern-
ment of Canada.

Mr. MACKENZIE inquired if the amount set down for drill-
sheds was the sum paid by Government or the local value of
these sheds. The municipalities, it should be remembered,
paid half their cost.

Hon. Mr. CARTIER would answer the question fully
another day. The municipalities, it was true, contributed
their share, but he believed the property became that of the
Government, but he would make inquiry about it. Govern-
ment at all events owned about one-third the value of the drill-
sheds. Now the aggregate of all the property belonging to the
Militia Department was $1,400,000, and supposing $40,000
were deducted from that jfor the share owned by the munici-
palities in the drill sheds, $1,360,000 worth of property would
be left to represent a portion of the expenditure, of which he
had just spoken. He believed the member for Chateauguay
did not believe in the usefulness of such property as not paying
a dividend. But inasmuch as it was property for the defence
of the country, it was really yielding a larger dividend to the
people of the Dominion than if the money it represented was
sunk in bank stock. He came now to the bill of costs. (Hear,
hear). He said " hear, hear," too ; and would expect his
friends not to be frightened beforehand.

It being six o'clock the House rose.

After recess,

Hon. Mr. CARTIER resumed his speech. The measure
which he was about to introduce, if it became law, would
afford the means of protection and defence required during
the last three years, but at a greatly reduced expenditure.
Should there be another Fenian invasion, they would be met
with still stronger force than on the previous occasion. They
would make known by their fortifications and militia measure
that tlioy were determined to be British — (hear) — that they
would acknowledge no other sovereign. He felt sure that if it
were necessary to carry out an expensive measure of defence,
the House would sanction it. (Hear). His measure was an

economical one, and would commend itself to the House. He
would now proceed to speak of the Bill of Costs. In the
first place, he intended extending the military schools ; for
having introduced these military schools in the late Province of
Canada, the member for Cornwall deserved every credit.
These schools in Toronto, Montreal, Quebec and Kingston had
been attended with most satisfactory results. He desired that
native military talent should be employed as much as possible,
for there were many men in Upper and Lower Canada who
understood training well. Into the sister Provinces of New
Brunswick and Nova Scotia the benefits of these schools were
to be extended, and in his appropriation he would ask sufficient
to enable schools to be established there. Ho would have to
provide for the salary of the Adjutant General, the Deputy
Adjutant General, and officers required for that department,
and would also have to provide for nine district Deputy
Adjutant Generals, with their necessary staff, and also for six
Brigade Majors, besides the number now employed. Now for
the departmental salaries, including the department of the
Adjutant General at Ottawa, his deputy and clerks and the
Deputy Adjutant Generals at the head of the several districts
which he had mentioned, with their staff — the whole expen-
diture, in fact, would be $54,000. To this had to be added the
sum for Brigade Majors. Under this head, in the late Province
of Canada, the expenditure had been ^19,000. In addition to
the officers then required, six more had to be appointed for
Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, making the whole amount
^25,000. For contingencies, he provided the sum of $45,000.
For accidents to which the force was liable at drill, the average
sum voted by the late Province of Canada had been $2,000,
and this sum, he was happy to say, had only been to a small
extent drawn on. Hence, be thought, $3,000 would be ample
for the Dominion. Ammunition was set down at $50,000 ;
military schools, $120,000. In the late Province of Canada,
the average expenditure in each military school had been
$20,000, the four schools costing $80,000. To this he proposed
to add $40,000, for the same service in New Brunswick and
Nova Scotia. This brought him to the large item of clothing.
Of course, as he explained, the Government had already in
store an amount belonging to the volunteers, and doubtless
New Brunswick and Nova Scotia had also property in this
way, but he had yet no data in this matter. Well, for this
service he proposed to ask $75,000 annually. It was, he might
say, presumed the clothes of a militia man lasted 5 years, but
that did not prove to be the case. Then, again, presuming
there would be at least 20,000 volunteers organized, their cost

•■

for sixteen days drill would he ^160,000, and for their horses
there would be an expenditure of ^15,000. With regard to the
service companies, he would not ask an appropriation exceed-
ing the expenditure for eight days' drill for the first year. He
made his calculation on 20,000 service militia men, at eight
days, making ^128,000 ; and then there were 6,000 officers.
At first he had intended these should receive ^l a day; but,
ultimately, it was resolved to put all the officers of the reserve
as well as those of the volunteer force on 50 cents par day,
and consequently the expenditure under this head would be
reduced. At ^! per day each, the 6,000 officers would cost
^48,000 ; but, as he said, the allowance had been reduced one*
half.

Mr. MACKENZIE — Surely the hon. gentleman does not
put 6,000 officers to 20,000 men.

Hon. Mr. CARTIER said he alluded to the active and ser-
vice militia men. By the Bill he introduced, he supposed the
country divided into 200 battalions, with 30 officers for each
battalion, making 6,000. The transport of the service militia,
taking the ballot and unforeseen expenses, he set down at
$33,000, taking the enrolment $32,000 ; and this would be
done every alternate year by the captain of every company
division, who would receive a sum to make a census accord-
After the first
better data

much again

ing to the number of militiamen to be enrolled
enrolment, the Government would have of course
to go on. For the Brigade Majors, the estimated expense was
$25,000, the sum formerly voted for this purpose by the Pro-
vince of Canada being $19,000. Then for Drill InstructorSj
$50,000 was required.

Mr. MACKENZIE— That is more than half as
as last year.

Hon. Mr. CARTIER replied that this was owing to the
extra provision for New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, and also
to provide for the increasing population in Quebec and On-
tario. Military stores, great coats and accoutrements came
next — ^55,000 altogether annually. The whole service to be
performed under his Bill came to an expense of $900,000 and
no more. (Laughter.) Of course, he had not included any
amount which the Dominion Parliament might choose to
appropriate for drill sheds, for the policy of the late Govern-
ment of Canada in that respect ought to be, and he hoped
would be carried out. Now, in conclusion, he would say he
was almost ashamed of coming before that great House of
Commons, and asking so small an amount of money to enable
him to perform so great a service. (Laughter.)

Mr. MACKENZIE — The honorable gentleman has not often
sinned in that direction. (Laughter.)

Hon. Mr. CARTIER knew he had been a sinner ; but
thought for this measure, at all events, he deserved praise. He
thought he would deserve credit for maintaining 40,000 men
and 6,000 officers in a state of efficiency at the small charge of
^900,000. The member for Chateauguay was no doubt
astonished (laughter) but that sum was all he (Mr. C artier)
meant to ask for.

Mr. MACKENZIE — In calculating the expenses last year,
the hon. gentleman included the expenditure on gunboats — an
item of ^153,000, and with the view apparently that this pre-
sent measure should contrast as favourably as possible with
that before in force, he had omitted to include any expense
under this head.

Hon. Mr. CARTIER would explain gladly. Last year gun-
boats had to be purchased ; hence the expenditure. Now the
Government had two gunboats, and needed no vote of conse-
quence for that service. Besides, most of the expenditure for
the gunboats would be provided by the Imperial Government.

In answer to Hon. JOHN SANDFIELD McDONALD.

Hon. Mr. CARTIER said it was provided with regard to
the assembling of service companies that it should be done by
regulations enacted from time to lime, to suit each district. He
would add that perhaps the ^900,000 asked for would not be
spent ; in this case, a portion might be applied to the procuring
of tents to shelter the service companies. From a statement of
prices before him he found that the English prices for 200 regi-
mental division tents, officers and privates, would amount to
$86,000. It was also provided by the Bill that the Governor
in Council should make regulations with regard to the carrying
out of the measure, and these regulations would be laid before
Parliament during the first twenty or thirty days of the session.
With regard to the enrolment in time of war, every one would
be obliged to serve, with the privilege of securing a substitute :
in time of peace every man will be obliged to serve, but can
supply a substitute or pay $30.

In reply to Hon. Mr. HOLTON.

Hon. Mr. CARTIER said that before the second reading,
the correspondence respecting the organization of the Militia
and F'ortifications of the country would be brought down to the
House, as also the laws of New Brunswick, Nova Scolia and
Canada, to assist in the discussion of this measure.

In reply to Mr. JONES.

Hon. Mr. CARTIER said there was no law to compel young
men educated in the military schools to remain in the country.
They were free to come and go when they wished, but the
country would at all events have the honour of giving such as

did leave a good military education. The young men in the
country, he was happy to say, were fired by military ardour.
They knew that 50,000 men from Canada enrolled themselves
in the Northern ranks during the war. Again they had 150
youn.q^ men who went voluntarily and enrolled themselves in
the Pontifical army. They went to fight against Garibaldi,
who was nothing but an Italian Fenian — (loud laughter) — and
went to uphold his Holiness, who was one of the staunchest
opponents of Fonianism. He (Mr. Cartier) knew this, for
when an lion, gentleman (Mr. McGee) and himself had ihe
honour of an audience with his Holiness, the first question he
addressed to him (Mr. Cartier) was "My dear child, I hope
these Yankee Irish Fenians have ceased to trouble you." The
whole Catholic Church, he might add, was opposed to
Fenianism. (Cheers).

Hon. J. S. McDonald alluded to the measure of 1862 as
showing llic distaste of the people of Canada to being coerced
into military service. He believed that in the absence of
danger the present or any other measure introduced would be
a dead letter as regarded the mass of the Wilitia ; but let
danger once arise, and everv man in Canada would be
prepared to rush to arms in defence of his home and country.
He alluded to the heartiness with which large appropriations
for the defence of the country had been carried in the House,
and the unanimity with which this action of the representatives
had been regarded by the people. The Minister of Militia had
drawn a glowing picture of the valorous deeds which would
be achieved by the 700,000 fighting men whom Canada could
place in the field, but he knew well that this Bill did nothing
for the military training of this body of men, except the service
men. He then alluded to the violent attacks made on him-
self by Mr. Cartwright and other gentlemen on the opposite side,
because of the alleged short-comings of his measure. The
gentlemen drew their inspiration from a Despatch from the
Colonial Office requiring Canada to maintain 50,000 men in a
state of efficient drill. Among others who made incessant
attacks on him, because his patriotism did not reach that pitch,
was the present Minister of Finance. He wished to know
what these gentlemen would find it incumbent on them to say
HOW, when under circumstances more menacing of danger,
and with two other Provinces added to the Union, the Minister
ofM'litia was now content with 40,000 men. (Hear, hear.)
He proceeded 1o read passages from the Duke of Newcastle's
Despatch, which, besides requiring 50,000 men, demanded that
we should set apart a certain sum of money for purposes of
defence for five years beyond the domain of our own Parlia-

ment and under the control of the Imperial Government. He
referred to the prompt answer given by his government, that
the people of this country would adhere to the principle that
when they raised money, they should have the disposal of it
themselves, and* that it was beyond the resources of this
country Ihav 50,000 meti should be drilled in the manner
proposed. He and the honourable gentlemen who were his
colleagues had now the satisfaction of finding that the principles
they had laid down in regard to the number of men and the
expense they would incur, and which met the hostility of the
gentlemen opposite, weie the very principles of the measure
now submitted (Hear, hear.) The Bill, from the explanations
which had been given, he thought should receive the support
of the House. The only material difference between it and his
own measure was as to the machinery of enrolment, his
measure in th.it respect did not cost the country anything,
while by the present bill $32,000 was asked for the enrolment
by the captainsi. He did not know^ what the gentlemen who
formed the regalar opposition might say of the bill, but to his
own mind the general outlines of it which had been submitted
were satisfactory, it was in fact a carrying out of the measure
of his (Mr. Sandfield McDonald's) Government. He proceeded
to refer to the great interest taken by Lord Monck in militia
matter and the assistance he had received from him in
preparing his measure. He then expressed satisfaction at
hearing the complimentary language in which the Minister of
Militia had referred to Lt.-Col. W. Powell, for whose appoint-
ment he (Mr. Sandfield McDonald) had been at the time
condemned by gentlemen opposite in unmeasured terms. It
was a lesson to public men that when they made up their
minds they were right (and he well knew that Mr. Powell's
business abilities fitted him for the position), they should go
ahead, and the day would come when they would be compen-
sated for the abuse which at the time they might receive.

Mr. MACKENZIE said he had anticipated, from the known
proclivities of the Minister of Militia, that he would have sub-
mitted a very different bill from that which had been actually
presented to the House. As that honorable gentleman had
frequently declared that he never regretted anything he did, he
had expected we would have had the famous Lysons bill
presented again. He supposed the people generally would
not be sorry that this expectation had not been realized.
(Hear.) But taking a cursory view of the scheme as presented,
he thought it was either too little or too much. It appeared to
him that the sum of money to be appropriated was far more
than enough to accomplish the results sought to be obtained.

;

The bill, therefore, was insufficient as regarded what it would
achieve ; or it was too dear for what we would get. He was
glad, however, to infer from what had fallen from the Minister
of Militia, that he had succeeded in satisfying the English
Government, and also the Commander of our Militia, Col.
Macdougall, who, it was rumoured, had prepared a bill very
different from this in its character. He could not enter to-night
into any discussion of details, until he had the bill before him,
to contrast it with the present law ; but he would say that so
far as the gentlemen on the side of the House with whom he
generally acted were concerned, the Minister of Militia would
receive from ihem no factious opposition in this matter more
than in any other matter ; but that they would be prepared to
support the Government in any Military expenditure which
might be considered necessary, when the defence of the coun-
try and the honour of the empire were concerned. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Mackenzie then referred to the different treatment given by
gentlemen opposite to the Government of the member for Corn-
wall at the time when they laid down their policy on the ques-
tion of defence, in the Despatch which had been alluded to,
and which he characterized as the best written state paper
which he had ever boen emanating from this country. He then
referred to a remark of Mr. Cartier's as to the number of the
seafaring population of Great Britain, and gave the correct
figures, showing that Britain and her colonies, in the commerce
and marine, had afloat on the sea a total of 432,000 men, and
said that those figures were consoling when they read the taunt
occasionally spoken of in the United States about the decadence
of the British power. (Cheers). He closed by stating that he
would embrace the opportunity afforded by the second reading
of the Bill, to give at greater length his views on the measure
and the question of defence generally.

Hon. Mr. DORION contrasted the features of this Bill
with the existing law introduced by the Government of which
he was a member, and stated that this measure put restric-
tions to volunteering by confining the number of volunteers in
any regimental division to the quota that division was required
to furnish. In districts where the quota was not furnished by
volunteering, resort would be had to the ballot. By this Bill
therefore the compulsory system was substituted for the volun-
teer system. He saw no good reason for such a change, on the
contrary, he thought every encouragement should be given to
volunteering.

Hon. Mr. C ARTIER made some remarks in reply to obser-
vations by previous speakers. He said although he and his
friends had found fault with the short-comings of the member

t I

t t

for Cornwall, ihey had voted for his measure. Ho hoped
similar treatment would be accorded to the measure he now
introduced, even by those who might be disposed to criticise
some ol its features.

Mr. CARTVVRIGHT was as firmly convinced as ever that
the conduct of Parliament in refusing the measure of 1862 was
unpatriotic and such as had injured the country.

In reply to Mr. BLANCHET.

Hon. Mr. C ARTIER said the volunteer service was reduced
from five to three years, with the privilege of leaving, on six
months' notice, except when on actual service. They would
have no remuneration save that of the feeling of honor conse-
quent on the faithful discharge of their duly. The Governor
had power to divide the country into geographical and regi-
mental divisions. The battalions were to be formed of all the
service and volunteer companies. Tho country was divided
into 9 districts, these to be sub-divided into regimental divi-
sions, and again into company divisions. It is proposed that
Lower Canada be divided into three districts ; Ontario four
districts, and New Brunswick and Nova Scotia one district
each. He further explained that he intended to move the se-
cond reading of the Bill for Easter Tuesday.

RESOLUTIONS

•A : r _ t .-, i ■>, : , .J, /

■'I ,• ■ i

EELATIVE TO

FORTIFICATIONS.

* HOUSE OF COMMONS, i

OttawAj May 1,1868.

Sir G. E. CARTIER, moved that the House resolve itself
into committee of the whole to consider the folio w^ing resolutions:

1st. That it is expedient to provide that a sum not exceeding
£1,100,000 sterling, be applied to defray the expense of con-
structing works of fortifications for the defence of Montreal and
other cities and places west of Montreal, and also for the de-
fence of the city of St. John, N. B.

2nd. That it is expedient that sums required for the purpose
mentioned in the preceding resolution be raised from time to
time by loan under guarantee of the Imperial Government, and
that the sum so raised with the interest thereon, be a charge on
the consolidated revenue fund of Canada, next alter the appro-
priation for the construction of the Intercolonial Railway ; as
shall also such lurther sums as may be necessary to repay the
said loan either by way of a sinking fund not exceeding one
per centum per annum on the principal sum so raised for the
purpose of paying off the same, or in such other way as the
Governor in Council may determine.

The Hon. gentleman spoke at some length on the resolutions.
He said the subject contained in these resolutions was not new.
It was proposed to raise £1,100,000 sterling on the guarantee
of the Imperial Government for works of fortifications for the
defence of Montreal, Kingston, Toronto, Hamilton, Paris or
London ; and also St. John, New Brunswick. When this sub-
ject was mooted some time ago, the cry was raised that the
money would be applied to the fortification of Montreal alone.
It was now his happiness to give a contradiction to this state-
ment by submitting these resolutions. It was well-known that

the Imperial Government had unde^akpn llie fortification of
Quebeo. They would also do what was necessary for the
defence of Halifax as the principal British naval station on this
continent. The Imperial Government had always declared
that the whole resources of the empire wcie pledged to the
defence of Canada ; but at the same time Canada must do
something for herself. The despatches showing the views of
the Imperial Government had been laid before the House.
They required us to provide for the defence of Montreal. It had
been represented that it would not do to leave Ontario unde-
fended. The Imperial Government did not wish to leave us
in a false position. They stated that with Montreal and Quebec
fortified, they would undertake the defence of Cai;iada. This
had given rise to the impression that all the money would be
.«ipent at Quebec and Montreal, and that Ontario would be left
defenceless. Conferences followed between the Canadian and
Imperial Governments, and it was agreed that there should
also be fortifications at various strategic points in Upper Canada
— Toronto, Kingston, Hamilton, and other places. The Impe-
rial Government with that view agreed to extend the guarantee
to the amount required to be raised for fortifying those places,
as well as Montreal. It was not in his power to submit any
confidential report as to the precise nature of these fortificationis.
It would not be right for him to do so. To break secrecy with
regard to these reports would be to defeat, to some extent, the
object aimed at. The sum required for the fortification of
Montreal, though the principal point to be fortified, would not
exceed £430,000 sterling or £440,000 sterling. An entrenched
camp would be constructed there in order to provide for an
invasion from our neighbours, whether by Lake Champlain or
from Ogdensburgh. This camp and the fortifications would
extend from opposite Montreal, and would reach the County of
Vaudreuil. This £440,000 sterling would provide fortifications
that would meet the views of the British Government. The
expenditure for the land and sea defence of St. John, New
Brunswick, would be £190,000 sterling to £200,000.
There would then be reserved more than half the amount for
Ontario. A large portion of this balance would be spent at
Kingston, the key to Upper Canada ; the rest at Toronto, Ha-
milton, Paris or London. It was probable that at London
there would be works in the shape of an Inland Camp. There
would be various objections to this expenditure for fortifica-
tions. First, it would be said they would be unproductive
works. In reply to this he would say that our country had
reached that position of importance that we should follow the

examples of other nations and fence our country against aggres-
sion. When vvc made fences between ourselves and our neigh-
bours, It was a solemn declaration to them and to the world that
we intended to remain connected with Great Britain. We
should remember that we had recx'ived a great deal of money
from Britain ; the capital of our banks, the money for the con-
struction of our railways, &c. ; and when we raised the de-
fences of which we had spoken, it was an additional secu-
rity to the liritish capitalists that their money was safe, and
we would in future receive what more money wo wanted on
cheaper Terms. The argument therefore against his scheme, or
rather against the scheme suggested by the British Govern-
ment, that it was spending money on unproductive works,
would not hold good. Another objection was, that it was too
heavy an expenditure for our resources. The Minister of Fi-
nance had shown that in the coming year there would be a
sufficient surplus to pay interest and sinking fund on the money
raised not only for these fortifications but for the Intercolonial
Railway. If the money was borrowed in five annual instalments
of £220,000 sterling each, the charge for the first year at four per
cent interest and one per cent sinking fund would be $52,532 ;
on the second year $107,066; on the third year $160,600;
fourth year $214,133; fifih and thereafter $267,666. In S6
or 42 years, according to whether the sinking fund was invest-
ed at six per cent or five per cent, the whole amount would
be entirely paid ofi"; and he thought that such a charge on the
public treasury was a very light one when we look into account
the immense benefit the Dominion would derive from it. The
ordinary expenditure for the Militia would not exceed $900,000
or $1,000,000, add to that the charge for interest and sinking
fund on the fortifications loan of !^267,000 after five years, and
the charge on so great a country as the Dominion of Canada for
the maintenance of the Militia organization and for fortifications,
would not be more than $1,267,000 yearly. This was less than
the charge on any other people similarly situated, but he
believed that possibly the charge for militia after we had these
fortifications might be less than what he had stated. Another
objection was embodied in the idea that with the heavy guns
of modern times, Armstrongs and others, there were no fortfica-
tions that could resist them. This idea he pronounced falla-
cious and unfounded. Some hon. gentleman had stated that
the best fortifications Her Majesty could have for the defence
of this Dominion, were to be found in the loyalty and in the
hearts of its inhabitants. He admitted this furnished a most
essential defence, but they were not sufficient. A nation infe-

rior in number could not cope with a nation superior in num-
ber without fortifications. Those having such feelings should
be protected so that they might live aii long us possible to con-
front the foe. He could not admit for a moment that fortifica-
tions were useless. They were especially valuable for a na-
tion situated as ours ; for though our climate had its disadvan-
tages, it had this advantage, that it limited the possibility of
military operations against us to six months in the year. In
the late war in the I'nited States we had seen how long the
immense armies under the Northern generals had been kept at
bay by the fortifications of Petersburgh and Richmond. By
means of their fortifications the South, which could only put
400,000 men in the field, had for five years successfully resisted
the North with its vastly superior resources, and which put
into the field altogether 2,600,000 men. If Canada should be
invaded we had the power of British to back us, and the
United States would require a large portion of their forces
to defend their Atlantic sea board and California and
Oregon, which were more vulnerable by Britain than Canada
was by the United States. He did not see how the United
States, in the event of a war, could spare more than 160,000
men for the invasion of Canada ; but with the expenses of the
late war and the burdens it had entailed on them he did not
believe the United States would go to war with Great Britain.
(Opposition cries of " hear, hear.") It was said that in case of
a war with the United States, let us meet them with fiesh
against fiesh, but they had more fiesh than we had and not
content with that they were erecting fortifications besides. The
hon. gentleman then referred to thi; history of the Crimean war
to show the value of fortifications ; also to the negotiations be-
tween France and Prussia about Luxemburg, and to the part
played by the Quadrilateral in saving Austria during the late
Italian war. He expected the resolutions he had now the
honour to submit would be accepted almost unanimously by
the House. The member for Lambton had stated he would
move an amendment, but he believed the hon. gentleman him-
self would be pleased if his amendment were defeated by an
overwhelming majority. His ^Sir George's) intention was not
to press a vote to go into committee to-day. He wished to
have the discussion go on with the advantage of having the
Speaker in the chair, and after it had gone on for some time he
would move for an adjournment of the debate, that every
member might have an opportunity of full reflection before the
vote was taken.