^, «!8t#< 1^ V >^S .\ <>!> js-. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) ^' ^' •■ - II for sixteen days drill would he ^160,000, and for their horses there would be an expenditure of ^15,000. With regard to the service companies, he would not ask an appropriation exceed- ing the expenditure for eight days' drill for the first year. He made his calculation on 20,000 service militia men, at eight days, making ^128,000 ; and then there were 6,000 officers. At first he had intended these should receive ^l a day; but, ultimately, it was resolved to put all the officers of the reserve as well as those of the volunteer force on 50 cents par day, and consequently the expenditure under this head would be reduced. At ^! per day each, the 6,000 officers would cost ^48,000 ; but, as he said, the allowance had been reduced one* half. Mr. MACKENZIE — Surely the hon. gentleman does not put 6,000 officers to 20,000 men. Hon. Mr. CARTIER said he alluded to the active and ser- vice militia men. By the Bill he introduced, he supposed the country divided into 200 battalions, with 30 officers for each battalion, making 6,000. The transport of the service militia, taking the ballot and unforeseen expenses, he set down at $33,000, taking the enrolment $32,000 ; and this would be done every alternate year by the captain of every company division, who would receive a sum to make a census accord- After the first better data much again ing to the number of militiamen to be enrolled enrolment, the Government would have of course to go on. For the Brigade Majors, the estimated expense was $25,000, the sum formerly voted for this purpose by the Pro- vince of Canada being $19,000. Then for Drill InstructorSj $50,000 was required. Mr. MACKENZIE— That is more than half as as last year. Hon. Mr. CARTIER replied that this was owing to the extra provision for New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, and also to provide for the increasing population in Quebec and On- tario. Military stores, great coats and accoutrements came next — ^55,000 altogether annually. The whole service to be performed under his Bill came to an expense of $900,000 and no more. (Laughter.) Of course, he had not included any amount which the Dominion Parliament might choose to appropriate for drill sheds, for the policy of the late Govern- ment of Canada in that respect ought to be, and he hoped would be carried out. Now, in conclusion, he would say he was almost ashamed of coming before that great House of Commons, and asking so small an amount of money to enable him to perform so great a service. (Laughter.) Mr. MACKENZIE — The honorable gentleman has not often sinned in that direction. (Laughter.) n Hon. Mr. CARTIER knew he had been a sinner ; but thought for this measure, at all events, he deserved praise. He thought he would deserve credit for maintaining 40,000 men and 6,000 officers in a state of efficiency at the small charge of ^900,000. The member for Chateauguay was no doubt astonished (laughter) but that sum was all he (Mr. C artier) meant to ask for. Mr. MACKENZIE — In calculating the expenses last year, the hon. gentleman included the expenditure on gunboats — an item of ^153,000, and with the view apparently that this pre- sent measure should contrast as favourably as possible with that before in force, he had omitted to include any expense under this head. Hon. Mr. CARTIER would explain gladly. Last year gun- boats had to be purchased ; hence the expenditure. Now the Government had two gunboats, and needed no vote of conse- quence for that service. Besides, most of the expenditure for the gunboats would be provided by the Imperial Government. In answer to Hon. JOHN SANDFIELD McDONALD. Hon. Mr. CARTIER said it was provided with regard to the assembling of service companies that it should be done by regulations enacted from time to lime, to suit each district. He would add that perhaps the ^900,000 asked for would not be spent ; in this case, a portion might be applied to the procuring of tents to shelter the service companies. From a statement of prices before him he found that the English prices for 200 regi- mental division tents, officers and privates, would amount to $86,000. It was also provided by the Bill that the Governor in Council should make regulations with regard to the carrying out of the measure, and these regulations would be laid before Parliament during the first twenty or thirty days of the session. With regard to the enrolment in time of war, every one would be obliged to serve, with the privilege of securing a substitute : in time of peace every man will be obliged to serve, but can supply a substitute or pay $30. In reply to Hon. Mr. HOLTON. Hon. Mr. CARTIER said that before the second reading, the correspondence respecting the organization of the Militia and F'ortifications of the country would be brought down to the House, as also the laws of New Brunswick, Nova Scolia and Canada, to assist in the discussion of this measure. In reply to Mr. JONES. Hon. Mr. CARTIER said there was no law to compel young men educated in the military schools to remain in the country. They were free to come and go when they wished, but the country would at all events have the honour of giving such as , 13 did leave a good military education. The young men in the country, he was happy to say, were fired by military ardour. They knew that 50,000 men from Canada enrolled themselves in the Northern ranks during the war. Again they had 150 youn.q^ men who went voluntarily and enrolled themselves in the Pontifical army. They went to fight against Garibaldi, who was nothing but an Italian Fenian — (loud laughter) — and went to uphold his Holiness, who was one of the staunchest opponents of Fonianism. He (Mr. Cartier) knew this, for when an lion, gentleman (Mr. McGee) and himself had ihe honour of an audience with his Holiness, the first question he addressed to him (Mr. Cartier) was "My dear child, I hope these Yankee Irish Fenians have ceased to trouble you." The whole Catholic Church, he might add, was opposed to Fenianism. (Cheers). Hon. J. S. McDonald alluded to the measure of 1862 as showing llic distaste of the people of Canada to being coerced into military service. He believed that in the absence of danger the present or any other measure introduced would be a dead letter as regarded the mass of the Wilitia ; but let danger once arise, and everv man in Canada would be prepared to rush to arms in defence of his home and country. He alluded to the heartiness with which large appropriations for the defence of the country had been carried in the House, and the unanimity with which this action of the representatives had been regarded by the people. The Minister of Militia had drawn a glowing picture of the valorous deeds which would be achieved by the 700,000 fighting men whom Canada could place in the field, but he knew well that this Bill did nothing for the military training of this body of men, except the service men. He then alluded to the violent attacks made on him- self by Mr. Cartwright and other gentlemen on the opposite side, because of the alleged short-comings of his measure. The gentlemen drew their inspiration from a Despatch from the Colonial Office requiring Canada to maintain 50,000 men in a state of efficient drill. Among others who made incessant attacks on him, because his patriotism did not reach that pitch, was the present Minister of Finance. He wished to know what these gentlemen would find it incumbent on them to say HOW, when under circumstances more menacing of danger, and with two other Provinces added to the Union, the Minister ofM'litia was now content with 40,000 men. (Hear, hear.) He proceeded 1o read passages from the Duke of Newcastle's Despatch, which, besides requiring 50,000 men, demanded that we should set apart a certain sum of money for purposes of defence for five years beyond the domain of our own Parlia- 14 ment and under the control of the Imperial Government. He referred to the prompt answer given by his government, that the people of this country would adhere to the principle that when they raised money, they should have the disposal of it themselves, and* that it was beyond the resources of this country Ihav 50,000 meti should be drilled in the manner proposed. He and the honourable gentlemen who were his colleagues had now the satisfaction of finding that the principles they had laid down in regard to the number of men and the expense they would incur, and which met the hostility of the gentlemen opposite, weie the very principles of the measure now submitted (Hear, hear.) The Bill, from the explanations which had been given, he thought should receive the support of the House. The only material difference between it and his own measure was as to the machinery of enrolment, his measure in th.it respect did not cost the country anything, while by the present bill $32,000 was asked for the enrolment by the captainsi. He did not know^ what the gentlemen who formed the regalar opposition might say of the bill, but to his own mind the general outlines of it which had been submitted were satisfactory, it was in fact a carrying out of the measure of his (Mr. Sandfield McDonald's) Government. He proceeded to refer to the great interest taken by Lord Monck in militia matter and the assistance he had received from him in preparing his measure. He then expressed satisfaction at hearing the complimentary language in which the Minister of Militia had referred to Lt.-Col. W. Powell, for whose appoint- ment he (Mr. Sandfield McDonald) had been at the time condemned by gentlemen opposite in unmeasured terms. It was a lesson to public men that when they made up their minds they were right (and he well knew that Mr. Powell's business abilities fitted him for the position), they should go ahead, and the day would come when they would be compen- sated for the abuse which at the time they might receive. Mr. MACKENZIE said he had anticipated, from the known proclivities of the Minister of Militia, that he would have sub- mitted a very different bill from that which had been actually presented to the House. As that honorable gentleman had frequently declared that he never regretted anything he did, he had expected we would have had the famous Lysons bill presented again. He supposed the people generally would not be sorry that this expectation had not been realized. (Hear.) But taking a cursory view of the scheme as presented, he thought it was either too little or too much. It appeared to him that the sum of money to be appropriated was far more than enough to accomplish the results sought to be obtained. 15 ; The bill, therefore, was insufficient as regarded what it would achieve ; or it was too dear for what we would get. He was glad, however, to infer from what had fallen from the Minister of Militia, that he had succeeded in satisfying the English Government, and also the Commander of our Militia, Col. Macdougall, who, it was rumoured, had prepared a bill very different from this in its character. He could not enter to-night into any discussion of details, until he had the bill before him, to contrast it with the present law ; but he would say that so far as the gentlemen on the side of the House with whom he generally acted were concerned, the Minister of Militia would receive from ihem no factious opposition in this matter more than in any other matter ; but that they would be prepared to support the Government in any Military expenditure which might be considered necessary, when the defence of the coun- try and the honour of the empire were concerned. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Mackenzie then referred to the different treatment given by gentlemen opposite to the Government of the member for Corn- wall at the time when they laid down their policy on the ques- tion of defence, in the Despatch which had been alluded to, and which he characterized as the best written state paper which he had ever boen emanating from this country. He then referred to a remark of Mr. Cartier's as to the number of the seafaring population of Great Britain, and gave the correct figures, showing that Britain and her colonies, in the commerce and marine, had afloat on the sea a total of 432,000 men, and said that those figures were consoling when they read the taunt occasionally spoken of in the United States about the decadence of the British power. (Cheers). He closed by stating that he would embrace the opportunity afforded by the second reading of the Bill, to give at greater length his views on the measure and the question of defence generally. Hon. Mr. DORION contrasted the features of this Bill with the existing law introduced by the Government of which he was a member, and stated that this measure put restric- tions to volunteering by confining the number of volunteers in any regimental division to the quota that division was required to furnish. In districts where the quota was not furnished by volunteering, resort would be had to the ballot. By this Bill therefore the compulsory system was substituted for the volun- teer system. He saw no good reason for such a change, on the contrary, he thought every encouragement should be given to volunteering. Hon. Mr. C ARTIER made some remarks in reply to obser- vations by previous speakers. He said although he and his friends had found fault with the short-comings of the member t I t t 16 for Cornwall, ihey had voted for his measure. Ho hoped similar treatment would be accorded to the measure he now introduced, even by those who might be disposed to criticise some ol its features. Mr. CARTVVRIGHT was as firmly convinced as ever that the conduct of Parliament in refusing the measure of 1862 was unpatriotic and such as had injured the country. In reply to Mr. BLANCHET. Hon. Mr. C ARTIER said the volunteer service was reduced from five to three years, with the privilege of leaving, on six months' notice, except when on actual service. They would have no remuneration save that of the feeling of honor conse- quent on the faithful discharge of their duly. The Governor had power to divide the country into geographical and regi- mental divisions. The battalions were to be formed of all the service and volunteer companies. Tho country was divided into 9 districts, these to be sub-divided into regimental divi- sions, and again into company divisions. It is proposed that Lower Canada be divided into three districts ; Ontario four districts, and New Brunswick and Nova Scotia one district each. He further explained that he intended to move the se- cond reading of the Bill for Easter Tuesday. RESOLUTIONS •A : r _ t .-, i ■>, : , .J, / ■'I ,• ■ i EELATIVE TO FORTIFICATIONS. * HOUSE OF COMMONS, i OttawAj May 1,1868. Sir G. E. CARTIER, moved that the House resolve itself into committee of the whole to consider the folio w^ing resolutions: 1st. That it is expedient to provide that a sum not exceeding £1,100,000 sterling, be applied to defray the expense of con- structing works of fortifications for the defence of Montreal and other cities and places west of Montreal, and also for the de- fence of the city of St. John, N. B. 2nd. That it is expedient that sums required for the purpose mentioned in the preceding resolution be raised from time to time by loan under guarantee of the Imperial Government, and that the sum so raised with the interest thereon, be a charge on the consolidated revenue fund of Canada, next alter the appro- priation for the construction of the Intercolonial Railway ; as shall also such lurther sums as may be necessary to repay the said loan either by way of a sinking fund not exceeding one per centum per annum on the principal sum so raised for the purpose of paying off the same, or in such other way as the Governor in Council may determine. The Hon. gentleman spoke at some length on the resolutions. He said the subject contained in these resolutions was not new. It was proposed to raise £1,100,000 sterling on the guarantee of the Imperial Government for works of fortifications for the defence of Montreal, Kingston, Toronto, Hamilton, Paris or London ; and also St. John, New Brunswick. When this sub- ject was mooted some time ago, the cry was raised that the money would be applied to the fortification of Montreal alone. It was now his happiness to give a contradiction to this state- ment by submitting these resolutions. It was well-known that 18 the Imperial Government had unde^akpn llie fortification of Quebeo. They would also do what was necessary for the defence of Halifax as the principal British naval station on this continent. The Imperial Government had always declared that the whole resources of the empire wcie pledged to the defence of Canada ; but at the same time Canada must do something for herself. The despatches showing the views of the Imperial Government had been laid before the House. They required us to provide for the defence of Montreal. It had been represented that it would not do to leave Ontario unde- fended. The Imperial Government did not wish to leave us in a false position. They stated that with Montreal and Quebec fortified, they would undertake the defence of Cai;iada. This had given rise to the impression that all the money would be .«ipent at Quebec and Montreal, and that Ontario would be left defenceless. Conferences followed between the Canadian and Imperial Governments, and it was agreed that there should also be fortifications at various strategic points in Upper Canada — Toronto, Kingston, Hamilton, and other places. The Impe- rial Government with that view agreed to extend the guarantee to the amount required to be raised for fortifying those places, as well as Montreal. It was not in his power to submit any confidential report as to the precise nature of these fortificationis. It would not be right for him to do so. To break secrecy with regard to these reports would be to defeat, to some extent, the object aimed at. The sum required for the fortification of Montreal, though the principal point to be fortified, would not exceed £430,000 sterling or £440,000 sterling. An entrenched camp would be constructed there in order to provide for an invasion from our neighbours, whether by Lake Champlain or from Ogdensburgh. This camp and the fortifications would extend from opposite Montreal, and would reach the County of Vaudreuil. This £440,000 sterling would provide fortifications that would meet the views of the British Government. The expenditure for the land and sea defence of St. John, New Brunswick, would be £190,000 sterling to £200,000. There would then be reserved more than half the amount for Ontario. A large portion of this balance would be spent at Kingston, the key to Upper Canada ; the rest at Toronto, Ha- milton, Paris or London. It was probable that at London there would be works in the shape of an Inland Camp. There would be various objections to this expenditure for fortifica- tions. First, it would be said they would be unproductive works. In reply to this he would say that our country had reached that position of importance that we should follow the 19 examples of other nations and fence our country against aggres- sion. When vvc made fences between ourselves and our neigh- bours, It was a solemn declaration to them and to the world that we intended to remain connected with Great Britain. We should remember that we had recx'ived a great deal of money from Britain ; the capital of our banks, the money for the con- struction of our railways, &c. ; and when we raised the de- fences of which we had spoken, it was an additional secu- rity to the liritish capitalists that their money was safe, and we would in future receive what more money wo wanted on cheaper Terms. The argument therefore against his scheme, or rather against the scheme suggested by the British Govern- ment, that it was spending money on unproductive works, would not hold good. Another objection was, that it was too heavy an expenditure for our resources. The Minister of Fi- nance had shown that in the coming year there would be a sufficient surplus to pay interest and sinking fund on the money raised not only for these fortifications but for the Intercolonial Railway. If the money was borrowed in five annual instalments of £220,000 sterling each, the charge for the first year at four per cent interest and one per cent sinking fund would be $52,532 ; on the second year $107,066; on the third year $160,600; fourth year $214,133; fifih and thereafter $267,666. In S6 or 42 years, according to whether the sinking fund was invest- ed at six per cent or five per cent, the whole amount would be entirely paid ofi"; and he thought that such a charge on the public treasury was a very light one when we look into account the immense benefit the Dominion would derive from it. The ordinary expenditure for the Militia would not exceed $900,000 or $1,000,000, add to that the charge for interest and sinking fund on the fortifications loan of !^267,000 after five years, and the charge on so great a country as the Dominion of Canada for the maintenance of the Militia organization and for fortifications, would not be more than $1,267,000 yearly. This was less than the charge on any other people similarly situated, but he believed that possibly the charge for militia after we had these fortifications might be less than what he had stated. Another objection was embodied in the idea that with the heavy guns of modern times, Armstrongs and others, there were no fortfica- tions that could resist them. This idea he pronounced falla- cious and unfounded. Some hon. gentleman had stated that the best fortifications Her Majesty could have for the defence of this Dominion, were to be found in the loyalty and in the hearts of its inhabitants. He admitted this furnished a most essential defence, but they were not sufficient. A nation infe- mm 20 rior in number could not cope with a nation superior in num- ber without fortifications. Those having such feelings should be protected so that they might live aii long us possible to con- front the foe. He could not admit for a moment that fortifica- tions were useless. They were especially valuable for a na- tion situated as ours ; for though our climate had its disadvan- tages, it had this advantage, that it limited the possibility of military operations against us to six months in the year. In the late war in the I'nited States we had seen how long the immense armies under the Northern generals had been kept at bay by the fortifications of Petersburgh and Richmond. By means of their fortifications the South, which could only put 400,000 men in the field, had for five years successfully resisted the North with its vastly superior resources, and which put into the field altogether 2,600,000 men. If Canada should be invaded we had the power of British to back us, and the United States would require a large portion of their forces to defend their Atlantic sea board and California and Oregon, which were more vulnerable by Britain than Canada was by the United States. He did not see how the United States, in the event of a war, could spare more than 160,000 men for the invasion of Canada ; but with the expenses of the late war and the burdens it had entailed on them he did not believe the United States would go to war with Great Britain. (Opposition cries of " hear, hear.") It was said that in case of a war with the United States, let us meet them with fiesh against fiesh, but they had more fiesh than we had and not content with that they were erecting fortifications besides. The hon. gentleman then referred to thi; history of the Crimean war to show the value of fortifications ; also to the negotiations be- tween France and Prussia about Luxemburg, and to the part played by the Quadrilateral in saving Austria during the late Italian war. He expected the resolutions he had now the honour to submit would be accepted almost unanimously by the House. The member for Lambton had stated he would move an amendment, but he believed the hon. gentleman him- self would be pleased if his amendment were defeated by an overwhelming majority. His ^Sir George's) intention was not to press a vote to go into committee to-day. He wished to have the discussion go on with the advantage of having the Speaker in the chair, and after it had gone on for some time he would move for an adjournment of the debate, that every member might have an opportunity of full reflection before the vote was taken.