1, V^o. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) \,\J yo ' I.I 11.25 M MIS lAo mil 2.0 6" JA lliill.6 V <^ /: '^w ^ ^> V ^ ^^'^ Photographic Sdences Corporation 23 WESY MAt ^ TREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) S72-4S03 "O" .^ <^J^ ■<(!^' CIHM/ICMH Microfiche Series. CIHIVI/iCMH Collection de microfiches. Canadian Institute for Historical Microreproductions / Institut Canadian de microreproductions historiques Technical and Bibliographic Notes/Notes techniques et bibiiographiques The Institute has attempted to obtain the best original copy available for filming. Features of this copy which may be bibliographically unique, which may alter any of the images in the reproduction, or which may significantly change the usual method of filming, are checked below. I — 7J Coloured covers/ I Vl Couverture de couleur r"^] Covers damaged/ Couverture endommagde Covers restored and/or laminated/ Couverture restauree et/ou pellicul6e n n n Cover title missing/ Le titre de couverture manque Coloured maps/ Cartes gdographiques en couleur Coloured ink (i.e. other than blue or black)/ Encre de couleur (i.e. autre que bleue ou noire) Coloured plates and/or illustrations/ Planches et/ou illustrations en couleur Bound with other material/ Relid avec d'autres documents Tight binding may cause shadows or distortion along interior margin/ La reliure serree peut causer de I'ombre ou de la distortion le long de la marge intdrieure Blank leaves added during restoration may appear within the text. Whenever possible, these have been omitted from filming/ II se peut que certaines pages blanches ajout6es lors d'une restauration apparaissent dans le texte, mais, lorsque cela 6tait possible, ces pages n'ont pas 4t6 filmdes. L'Institut a microfilm^ le meiileur exemplaire qu'il lui a 6t6 possible de se procurer. Les details de cet exemplaire qui sont peut-dtre uniques du point de vue bibliographique, qui peuvent modifier une image reproduite, ou qui peuvent exiger une modification dans la m6thode normale de filmage sont indiqu^s ci-dessous. □ Coloured pages/ Pages de couleur □ Pages damaged/ Pages endommagdes □ Pages restored and/or laminated/ Pages restaurdes et/ou pelliculdes I — T/Pages discoloured, stained or foxed/ Ljd Pages d6color6es, tachetdes ou piquies □Pages detached/ Pages d.^tach6es r~~y Showthrough/ I I Transparence □ Quality of print varies/ Qualitd indgale de I'impression I I Includes supplementary material/ Th( to □ Comprend du materiel supplementaire Only edition available/ Seule Mition disponible Pages wholly or partially obscured by errata slips, tissues, etc., have been refilmed to ensure the best possible image/ Les pages totalement ou partiellement obscurcies par un feuillet d'errata, une pelure, etc., ont 6t6 filmdes A nouveau de fapon A obtenir la meilleure image possible. Th( poi of filr Or! bei th( sio oti fin sio or Th shi TH wf Ml dif en be rig re< mi n Additional comments:/ Commentaires suppl6mentaires: This item is filmed at the reduction ratio checked below/ Ce document est filmd au taux de reduction indiqui ci-dessous. 10X 14X 18X 22X 26X 30X m 16X 20X 24X 28X 32X Th« copy filmad h«r« has b««n raproducad thanks to tha ganarosity of: Library Division Provincial Archives of British Columbia L'axamplaira filmA f ut raproduit grica A la gAnArosit* da: Library Division Provincial Archives of British Columbia Tha imaga* appaaring hara ara tha bast quality possibia considaring tha condition and lagibility of tha original copy and in Kaaping with tha filming contract spacifications. Laa imagaa suivantas ont AtA raproduitas avac la plus grand soin, compta tanu da la condition at da la nattatA da l'axamplaira film*, at an conformity avac las conditions du contrat da filmaga. Original copias in printad papar covars ara filmad baginning with tha front covar and anding on tha last paga with a printad or illustratad impras- sion. or tha bacit covar whan appropriata. All othar original copias ara filmad baginning on tha first paga with a printad or illustratad impras- sion, and anding on tha last paga with a printad or illustratad imprassion. Las axamplairas originaux dont la couvartura an papiar ast imprimia sont filmis an commandant par la pramiar plat at an tarminant soit par la darniira paga qui comporta una amprainta d'imprassion ou d'illustration. soit par la sacond plat, salon la cas. Tous las autras axamplairas originaux sont filmAs an commandant par la pramiAra paga qui comporta una amprainta d'imprassion ou d'illustration at tn tarminant par la darniira paga qui comporta una talla amprainta. Tha last racorded frama on each microfiche shall contain the symbol — ^ (meaning "CON- TINUED 'I, or the symbol V (meaning "END"), whichever applies. Un des symboles suivants apparaitra sur la darniire image de cheque microfiche, selon le cas: le symboln — »> signifie "A SUIVRE", le symbols V signifie "FIN". IVIaps, plates, charts, etc., mey be filmed at different reduction retios. Those too large to be entirely Included In one exposure are filmed beginning in the upper left hand corner, left to right and top to bottom, as many frames as required. The following diagrams lllustiate the method: Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent Atre filmAs A des taux de rMuction difftrents. Lorsque le document est trop grand pour Atre reproduit en un seul clichi, il est film* A partir da Tangle supArieur geuche, de gauche A droite, et de haut en bas, en prenant la riombre d'images nAcessaira. Las diagrammas suivants illustrent la mAthoda. t 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 AI^PENDIX No s 1898 THE SENATE O F CANADA Special Committee upon Opening up Direct Communication between the Rralway System of Canada and the , ^ Na vis-able Waters of the Yukon JUL 13 'SF "•X;- :• •' OKr3ER OF REFMREXCE. EXTRACT FROM THE MINUTES OF PROCRFDINGS OF THE SENATE. Monday, 4th April. 1898 Macl'nt "°"°°"'"° *'■• '""•" °"»"» """< """»">■» ^y tho 1I..mo„„,I,I„ Mr. OiUered, accordingly. Extract /rem M6 Second Report of the Committee by the Senate, Thvrsday the 28th April, 1898. EXTRACT FROM THE MINUTES OF THE FIRST MEETING OF THE COMMITTEE. Committee Room No. 8, Tuesday, April 5ih, 1898. Coraraiiteo met this day at 12 o'clock noon. Present :— The Honourable Sir John CaHin*r K n M a tu.. it prr, ti'td ^si'""-' '^«^"-"' (^i-."""),M.^-au '(-REirs^jr, The Coinmitteo being called to order by the Clerk railteo a;,l tho same w., re.olved in tho affl^™,livT' Chairman of tl,« Com. That iho Honourable Mr. Boulton be appoiatcd Chairman. tiveTanS,""" '■°"°" "'""^ ""' 'y ""■ «-". "•<= -"".« «. resolved i„ .be afflrma- The Honourable Mr. Boulton took the Chair. Attest. ALEX. SO UTTER, 6-~lj ^i^rk of Committee, 1S5949 REPORT. The Sknate, Committee Room No. 2, Wednesday, 18th May, 1898. The Special Committeo of tho Senate appointed to inquire into the fea.sibilit\' and pn.baljlo cost of opening' up direct communication between tho raiiwaj- bystem of Canada a-id tho navi,i,'ablo waters of tho Yukon, and also as to the advantayos which would flow therefrom to the trade of Canada, with power to nond for persons papers and rocord>, and who wore further ^rjvor. i)ower to employ such persons as they mif,^ht doom necessary for the purposes of tho said invostigatioii and with leave to report from time to time, have the honour to make their Third Koport as follows : — ' Your Committee beg leave to report that they have summoned and taken the eyidenfO()f tho following gentlemen who are bv their professional knowledge or by virtue of their residence, capable i)f giving" j'nictical and reliable information of tho facts which Your Committee was desirous of obtaining, namely: Tho Honourable Senator Reid, of Quesnello, Cariboo, British Columbia. Bishop Grouard, who since 18«2 has resided in tho Mackenzie Basin as mis-^ionary. Mr. Oliver, of Edmonton, Member for Alberta, in the House of Commons. Mr. Bostock, of Kamloops, Member from British Columbia. Mr. Marcus Smith, M. Inst. CK., engaged in surveys in 1871) and 1880. Dr. Dawson, Chief of tho Geological Service. Mr. Henry McLeod, Civil Engineer. Mr. St. Cyr, of the Surveyors' Branch of tho public service, engaged in 1898 in exploratory work on Teslin Lake and the Tuya to (he east. * ' Mr. Jennings, who was engaged in Canadian Pacitic Railway survevs, and last year from Teslin Lake to the Stikine. Mr. McConnell, of the Geological Service. Mr. P. C. Pambrum, who was born at Lessor Slave Lake and has spent his life in that countrv. Dr. Wills, late of the Mounted Police Force, and Lt.-Col. Lake, Quartermaster General. There are several routes to the Yukon from the east side of the mountains. One IS from Edmonton, north to the valleys of the Nelson, Liard and Polly Rivers. Tho next 18 by way of Pino River Pass, fifty miles south of Port St. John, on tho Peace River, to Fort Macleod. The other is by way of the Yellow Head Pass to the same point, Fort Macleod, near the headwaters of tho Parsnip River in the Omenica ROUTES To THIS YOKOX. (liHtrict, Tlioio iiro throe ways of ronchin^ tlic Poaco Rivor. Tlio one is l>y AtlialiUHCii Liiiiirnif;, llu'iii-o wof*t to LoH.xcr .Slave Lako. Tho other In diroft to LoHHi'i- SIttvti Lake, ami ho on to JJunveicaii uiul KortSi. Johti. The otluT Ih by way o( Dirt Lako on tlio SaHkalduiwan, a point al'ont Hovonty tnilos west oC Ivirnoiiton, iiorth-woNloriy to Kori St. John. l''rorii ivimonton to (ho junction of llio HaptJMto itivor wiih Iho Athabasca IJivcr wouM he a routocommon lo a junction with Vtiilow Head Push anil i'ort iSl.,Iohii o/ I'iiu* River Pass, h is ostiniatuii that al)ont four hun- dred and sixty livo milosot railway conh'ructed would hy way of Maptisto River mouth, north-west to iho I'eace River and southwest to TCle .laune Cache, on the KniHer Rivor, foily miles west of the Vellow Head Pass, make available a very lar^e stretch of navigable waters on these two rivern. Hither a pack trail or a wajjon road can bo obtained from Kort St. John, west of Dmiveifan, north to Fort Nelson, thonco down the valley of tile Nelson to its Junction with the Ijiard ; up the Liard to the hoij^ht of land which divides its headwaters from the headwaters of the Pelly, which river empties into the Yukon at Fort Selkirk. The distance fiom Fdmonton to Kort Selkirk by this route, from scaling; the maj) and ailding ten per cent for curvature, is ostimatod by Dr. Dawson and Mr. Jennings to be 1,2!K) miles. This pack trail would enable drovers to take in cattlo and horsos. Cattle win- tered in the Peace Rivor Valley could be driven in early and delivered in good con- dition at a reasonable price. Tho country passed through is well supplied with food. The richest gold deposits lie on the west side of tho mountains. Cariboo, Omenica, Beuse Lake and tho Klondike have all ostabliMhod a cliaracter tor them- Helves. Ai the Liard head there seems to be a gap, and the eahtern range of moun- tains from that ])oint seems to have been bodily lifted more to the oast, leaving a divide at the headwaters of tho Pelly ami Liard. Tliis divide appears to bo a rich gold bearing country. Tho evidence further goes to show that the whole of that region is covered with a low grade of pay gravel which only rc<| lires the economy supplied by railway communication tu convert it into a largo protitable field for enterprise and trade. Quartz mining has yet lo be dovelopo(i by the same means. A railway })rojocted through the Pine River Pass or tho Yellow Head Pass, proceeding north-westerly across to a port on the Pacific Ocean, following in a general line Sir Sanford Flem- ing's survey for the Canadian Pacific Eailway in 187'J ant' '880, would develop the principal mining districts, and a branch nortli from that .ino to i^'ort Selkirk and Dawson City, could bo made common to an approach from a Pacific port and from tho east. A more thorough exploratory survey seems desirable before establishing any point. Youi Committee are of opinion that the Toslin Lake route is too far to tho west for tho most profitable through route from either east or west, and believe that a route by way of tho Black Kivcr or Dease Rivor might bo found to be better. The evidence of some of our most experienced men go to show that the projec- tion of a railway upon Sir Sandfonl P^lcming's surveys in the seventies, when he was tho chief engineer of tho (rovei-nment railways, will lead up to and project through tho mountains a second transcontinental rail way developing a large, valuable agricul- tural area and mining region of the utmost value to the trade and transportation of Canada. Those who know tho country well are fully awaro that the further north you go to a coitain lino, north of tho Saskatchewan Rivor, tho richer tho soil, and- the better the sample of wheat. Your Committee are of opinion that the trade to an ocean port will so greatly supplement the local intervening trade in the miidng regions, that a transcontinental railway by way of Kdmonton will be beyond a doubt sclf-hustaining and profitable for the trade of Canada. Moreover, Your Committee wore influenced by their desire to bring the agricul- tural area of the western prairies into as close proximity to the Mining Industries as possible. The evidence further goes to show that there is no practical difficulty in push- ing railways anywhfo through the mountains at a cost of 620,000 per mile cash basis. That the projecuon of this i-oute might first start from Edmonton. That a route from Edmonton or Ashcroft to Fort Selkirk are about equidistant, but to the i llOUTi:^ TO THE YUKON. ;reatly tiiiontal •ofi table push- AHlicrofl roiilu would Imvo to bouldod 15U miloH Ixjtweon Calvary and Anlicroft on the ( 'ttnadiaii i'acilic Ritilway uh a trado mtilu trom eastorii Canada and -1)1) milua from \'aiuviiivnr to A.^licint't. That u tiaiiHc-onlinuiital lino, would throw arms lo tho Month iind north to uun- noct important points. Thill a roiilt! I)y way of Vancouver, tho Ocean, and Tosiin Lako to Dawnon City Ih 2,211 miloH with four tranMhipmonlH, or to Kort Selkirk 'J,OH() mi low, an against l.'JDO tVom Ildmonlon (inm Forks of Skeona down Skeena vailov to Port Simpson, 'l' nnco Albert to the Coast by llio mo>t northerly route 1 Ji Between Edmonton and Forks of Skeena (6 24 Miles. Edmonton to Yollovvhead Pass '9,.^ Thence down the left bank of the tVaserRiver above Fort Geor^ro, near the great bend of iho River 2'>« Thciice to Piossing near Fort ]\[cLcod "32 Thence followinjr that lino to the Forks of the Skeena!!..".'.'! -.30 807 Forks of Skeona to Port Simp.soif l-^g Edmonton to Coast ^T Table op Distances .uven nr Mr. .Je.n.ni.vgs, C.E., kor the Coast Route. Mik-s. (550 7(10 Calgary to V'ancouvor (rail) Vancouver to \Vran,«,'el (ocean) !!.!'.*.".'....!!!! VVrangel to Glenora' (river) '. !!!!!!..!!!!!!...!.!!"! 13's Glonora to Toslin Lake (lail) '.*...".".'.*.'. llf^ Toslin Lake to moiiMi of Iiootalin(|ua -^qO Mouth of the llootalinqua or Toslii. River'to Dawson'.'.!.!!! 361 9 ') -211 Ocean, lake and rivor transport "l^}!)f; Railway transport from Calgary ■'•.!.......!..'.'....".'.!. 815 2,211 Telegraph Creek, .south to I'ort Simpson "450 " " Observatory Inlet !!!!!!!! 300 Kailway transportfrom Calgary via PortSimpson and Te..lin Laice to Dawsoi , o.,. Railway transport from Observatory 'in'lot via Port Simpson ' and Feslin Lake to Dawson 1681 Ocean transport, Vancouver to Port Simpson! !!!!!!!.'.!!!!!!!! '500 „ '' " Observatory Inlet 575 tjoni Py amid Haibour or Lynn Canal via Dalion Trail to hvo miles below Five Finger Rapids 245 Five Finger Rapids to Fort Selkirk 57 302 10 ROUTES TO THE YUKOX. Your Commit loo believe that apo.u.al of iho evidence will justify the conclusion which they now have the honour ot proHeniing to the Sonato. Your Committee recommend that in addition to the UHual ''J^^^l'^;; "J^7«^^^^^^^ the ordinary distrihution, f.fteen hundre.l cop,eH in '-'"KI'^J' = f ^^^ ""^'"^ ^^P'^*^ in French of the Eeporl and evidence be printed ior general distribution. All which is respectfuily submitted. C. A. BOULTON, Chairman. I [icUision lired for id copies MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. n. The Committee met this day. The Honourable Mr. Boulton, Chairman. Ottawa, April 5th, 1898. Hon. Jamks Reii). — As 1 undernland the object of the Committeo is to get what information wo can as to the most feasible route into the Yukon country that can be opened at the earliest date possible. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — The shortest route we should like to get, if possible. Hon. Mr. Reiu, — Prom what point? Hon. Mr. BErvLEROsE. — Any point on the Canadian Pacific Railway. Hon. Mr. Eeid. — The Ashcioft route is preferable, in all its beatings, to any route that I know of. Hon. Mr. Perley. — Abhcroft is a junction on the Canadian Pacific Railway. Hon. Mr. Reid. — It is one of the stations on the Canadian Pacific Euilway. Hon. Mr. Perlet. — How far is that from the Coast? Hon. Ml'. Reid. — Two hundred and four miles from Vancouver. Hon. Mr. Bellerose. — That is between the two ranges of mountains ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — Yck. For a distance of two hundred and twenty miles from Ashcroft to the mouth of the Quesnolle there is an excellent wagon road, one of the fipest roads in any countiy. Stage coaches run twice a week in summer time and make the trip in three days. Hon. Mr. Perley. — Is there any water route ? Hon. Mr. Reid.— We can take the water route, but this is an all land route. From Qucsnelle mouth up to Telegraph Creek there is a pack trail in existence now on the old telegraph line bnilt in 1864-65. That has been kept up more or loss ever since. During the time of the Cassiar Gold excitement, that occurod near Telegraph Creek, pack trains were sent over that route with supplies, cattle were driven over there for the use of the miners, and it has been more or less travelled ever since. At Hazleton, on the Skeena, pack trains have been going there for the last few years, every year taking supplies into the Omenica country for the use of the miners and for the Hudson Bay Company's posts throughout that district. From Quesnelle northward, until you get up to Telegraph Creek, there is excellent feed for any number of horses or cattle that mtxy come along. Hay grows there five or six feet tall in summer time, any amount of it, and that can be cut and stored ready for winter, which cannot bo said of a great deal of the grazing country where the grass is but short, and what might bo called cattle ranges. In that respect the government of British Columbia are still improving the trail. The government of Britinh Columbia have voted money to put men to work as soon as the season opens to improve the tiail all the wa}' up to Glenora and to bridge the smaller streams and put ferries on the larger wtreams, ^o that without a cent of expon^e to the Dominion Government we have a road up to Telegraph Creek opened. The Chairman. — You have a trail that has been travelled to that point? Hon. Mr. Reid. — Yes, and a great many people are now ready to go up by that route as soon as the season opens. Parties ^oing up that way, if they do not think it worth while to go through to Dawson City, can branch ott' either to the right or to the left, and they are in a mineral country all the way. Thoy can do prospect- ing if they want to, with likely as good success as they could by going into the frozen north. The Chairman. — How far north have you been on that trail ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — 1 have been but a short distance north. I may eugj^est in con- nection with this that there is a man down here connected with the Geological Sur- vey who has been over all that route and knows more about it and about the country 11 12 ItOUTES TO THE YUKOX. than any one who is available here — that is Mr. McConnell. He has been all through that cniiniry and can give you valuable information and I would suggest that you call him as a witness. If it is desired to open up a route by way of Edmonton, I contend that it is not advisable to go down the Peace River, which will never be an available route for that purpose. I have had no personal experience of it,but I know from others that it would not suit as a loule to the Yukon. If instead of going down to the Peace River east of the Rocky Mountains, you could extend a line through the Yellowhead Pass to the headwaters of the Fraser, and come down to F'ort Gcr.ige on the Kiaser, you would unite with the Ashcioft route, and both lines are common up to Dawson. Not only that, but you are getting the advantage of all that mineral country, Cariboo, Omenici, and all through as far as you can go. I take it that as far a» the North-west is concerned, they have more land available now than they know what to do with, and they do not want aiy more opened up for the present. Peace Uivei- is all good enough in itfi-lf. but it is not required for the pre- sent time. If the North-west had a market for their produce at the mines. I take it that is what you require in the North-west, On the other route you miss every- thing until you get to Iklly River and the Yukon country. The Chairman. — Allow me to interrupt. What kind of a countiy is it for a railway? Is it mountainous? Hon. Mr. Refd. — No. between the valleys of the Coast Range and the Selkirks from the Rocky Mounta' ;s, there aie no mountains to go into at all ; you are going up throuyli the valley. Hon. Mr. Pekley.— On what river? Hon. Mr. McCallcm, — On the land. Hon. Mr. Reid. — There is a river that is navigable. Now I come to another part altoui navigation, by going from Ashcruft, 160 miles you strike the Frasc'i River. It is navigable — there is a steamboat on there now — up to bej'ond Qiiesnelle mouth, and a little improvement in three or four points would give un- inlerruptod navigation from the )ioint Ui:it is called Soda Creek on the Fraser I'iver to the liead i>f North Tatlah Lake, a distance of 450 miles, and then you are within at least 200 miles of Tidegraph Creek from the head of the lake. On the other hand if yon came through fiom Kdmonion and struck the Tdlo.laune Caidie, there is also steamboat navigation from that point down through the Fraser, u|) through Stuart Lake, a distance of about oOO miles; >o that you get into the very heart of the rain- ing country uy either water or overland. The Chaibman. — That navigation is in existence now. Hon. Mr. Reid. — It is in existence and not used, with the exception of the lower part from Soda deck up to (^uesnelle and a short distance above, for the simple reason that there is nothing to utilize it. Hon. Mr. Hem.erose. — Could you tell me the shortest distance between the Skcena River and the Fraser River ? Hon. .Mr. Reiu. — The shortest distance between those two points would be this I am tclliiiti you, from (^iiesnelle mouth up through this valley. Hon. Mr, Bei.i-erose. — From Quesnello to Skeena River, what would be the distance. Hon. Mr. Reid. — That would be .W) miles. You mean Hazleton ? Hon, Mr. Bei-lerose. — Yes. Hon. Ml'. Reid. — There is steamboat navigation up to Hazleton. The Chairman. — On the Skeena. Hon. Mr. Reid. — Yes, so th:it the road along there to the right and left of these places can be tapped by sevoral livers ; you tap it at Telegraph Creek on the Stikine and you can tap it at Ha/leton on the Skeena about the same time of the season, the navigation season. Hon. Mr, McCAi-L(jM,--The objection to water stretches is that you cannot use them in winter. Hon. Mr. Rbid, — But j'ou can get a road through there. II Ml. Mr. McCali.u.m. — It could be used winter and summer the same as the Cariboo would ? or you the to fl^ let t| ooul not nip the FinI go draf ROUTES TO THE YUKON. M through .hat you onton, I Bi- be an t I know d a line down 10 loth lines intage of lan go. I Itible now ip for the r the pve- ,. I take it 188 every- 8 it for a e Sol kirks are going to another Hlriko the ) to beyond ilil give un- 'raser river are within other hand here is also )ugh Stuart of the rain- of tlie lower the simple jetween the ould be this ould be the loft of these the Stikine f the season, u cannot use same as the i Hon. Mr. Reid. — Yes, and the advantage is you can grow hay all along, on the side all the waj'. Hon. Mr. MoC'ALnrM. — You can feed the cattle right along, Hon. Mr. Reid. — Yes, it has bt en tested in Heveral places in the valley there, and you can grow barley and oats. Some years they have frcst the same as we have down our way, but you laise everything you want in that respect. The Chairman. — There is no fruit up there. Hon. Mr. Rkid. — Small fruit ; no apples or anything of that sort. The Chairman. — It is some distance noiih of where Lord Aberdeen is? Hon. Mr. Reid. — Oh, ye.*, 500 miles. This is all north of the Canadian Pacific Railway. H.)n. Mr. Bellerose. — Can you tell us the distance between Calgary and Ash- croft ? Hon. Mr. Perley. — Four hundred and fifty miles. Hon. Mr. Reid. — It is in that book you have in your hand I think. The Chairman. — How far is it to the Peace River from Qiiesnelle? Hon. Mr. Reid. — That is across country. The Chairman. — Yes. Hon. Mr. Reid. — ft is vory difficult to say what Peace Riv^er is. The Chairman. — The head waters of the Pnaoe River. Hon. Mr. Reid. — It is seven milos from the Fraser River whore we can go with a steamer to the water running into the Peace River, just seven miles of a portage, and there is a good wagon road over that now. I have sent boats over there many times, it is not navigable for steamers until you got down through the lakes over the smaller rivere. The Chairman — The Fraser River is navigable up to a point whore seven milos of wagon road will transfer you to navigation on the Peace River, Hon. Mr. Reid. — Yes, for small boats. The Chairman, — Not tor steamboats, Hon, Mr. Reid. — No. Hon. Mr. Perlev. — You have sent stuff across there? Hon. Mr. Reid. — Yes. Hon. Mr. Perley. — How much do(!8 a bag of flour cost at that point? Hon. Mr. Reid. — That depends what it costs in the first place. Hon. Ml-. Perley — Say a dollar and a half in the fir>t place. Hon. Mr. Primrose. — That is 100 pounds of flour. Hon. Mr. Reid. — The price at Quesnoile is $55 a thousand. It is not in barrels there. It is all by the thousand or huiidred. It is five dollars and a half a hundred. It would take two cents to take it to the portage, the way we used to take it by small boat. If we had a steamer we could take it for a cent or less according to the quantity. Hon. Mr. Bellergse. — How riany feet of water would there bo for a small boat ? Do ^ know the number of feet of water in those rivers ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — Yes, that has no reference to a steamboat. Some of these small boats will dip as much as a steamer, probably be down two feet in the water or more; still with the crookednens of the stream you could take a small boat when you could not take a steamer. Wh«a we were going up with our furs in the fall of the year, when the water was low, there was hardly sufficient water in some of them to float the boats over the riffles, and wo used to jam them up into tho channel, and lot them wait there, and that backed the water, and it rose up, and in that way we could go up, and in going down it was tho sara« way. In some of the rivers there is not much water in the dry soasoD ; but after you get down to the lower end of Parp- nip River, then it is passible for light draft steamers to go up. In connootion with the navigation of the Peace River, from tho Rooky Mountain portage up to tho Finley branch of the Peace River — and this water at the head of Tatlah Lake will go within forty miles of it — it is navigable for steamers with almost any ordii^ary draft. That is, up to the Finley branch of the Peace River, The Chaibman. — It is oavigable for steamora up to that point. u ROUTES TO THE YUKON. Hon. Mr. Reid. — Yes, ami the Finley branch itself for a certain distance. Hon. Mr. MoCallum. — You refer to light draft steamorK. Hon. Mr. Keiu. — Y'ch, loaded, they should not draw over three feet of water. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — Stern wheel Hteameru ? Hon. Mr. Heid. — Y'oh. The CiiAiEMAN. — So that if there was a railroad running to the Peace River, then navigation could bo traiisforrod to the Eraser River or vice versa. Supposing a railway was built to the Peace River landing, you have navii^alion all the way up to the Finley branch ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — No ; there is twelve miles of a place you could not put a steamer on. It passes throuirh the rock. The Chairman.— Is that Fort St. John ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — No, it is higher up, some miles fuither up. Of course, it is more ilian that dislanco by the river, but we cut across a point, t^velve miles of a portage to go to the Peace River on the eastern side of the Rock}' Mountains. Then it is navigable from that down to the lake, with the e.KCoption of Vermillion Rapids. Hon. Mr. McCalmim. — What is the distance fron\ Dawson City to Ashcroft ? Hon. Mr. JJelleeosk. — Fourlcei' hundred and tifty-seven miles. Hon. Mr. MoCallum. — I mean as the crow flies. Hon. Mr. Keid. — It is pretty nearly straight. The Chairman. — Those are the ligures given to us by Mr. Ogilvie and some others. Hon. Mr. Reid. — They are about as correct as 3'ou can get. The Chairman. — Quesnelle, where you live, is on the route that the Government surveyed for the Canadian Pacitic Railway ? Hon. Mr. Rbid. — Yes, they went up to Quesnelle with their line and crossed the river there, and then by stage. The Chairman. — How far would you be from Edmonton ? Three or four hundred miles ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — It is probably four hundred and fifty miles. The Chairman. — Just about the same distance as it is on the main line of the Canaiiian Pacitic Railway ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — I do not think it is as far. It is shorter I think. The Chairman. — Here, is Calgary, 2,264 miles. Hon. Mr, Reid. — Yes. The Chairman. — And on to Ashcroft, how far ? Hon. Mr. Reid — Two thousand seven hundred and two. Hon. Mr. Bellerose. — It is seven hundred miles between Vancouver and Cal- gary and some t\^o hundred odd between Vancouver and Ashcroft. The Chaibman. — About the mining in theOmenica District, which way does the gold come out, or the trade go in ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — It is going in by way of Quesnelle. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — They take the gold in the pockets generally. Hon. Mr. Reid. — For the last five years I have sent goods in there. I have sent in a saw-mill and a whole hydraulic plant, Hon. Mr. Primrose. — Do you charge $500 a thousand ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — I think it is worse than that. 1 had to pay what they charged me. The Chairman. — How many men are there engaged up there ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — 1 should judge about 700. The Chairman. — What companies are operating there ? Hon. Mr, Reid. — There is the 43rd Mining Company, the greater number of the shareholders aie in this city, and three other companies. The Chairman. — Is the Gooderbam & W- rts Company up there ? Hon. Mr. Rbid. — No. They may have gone there lately. There is an English company which has bought out two of the other companies and they are sending in a larger number of men this year to develope their mines and three or four other companies are preparing to go in there. There is an American Company that has son, take r way croft t bably 200 mi T H other not sa^^ .grounc ROUTES TO THE YUKOX. 15 3. yater. River, ipporting 1 way up 3t put a irBe, it is liles of a jH. Then n Rajjicls. icroft ? and some )vernment nd crossed (0 or four ine of the er and Cal- ly does the have sent ey charged number of an English sending in four other ay that has taken up somo dredging leases. They propose to put dredges on the Nation River and the rivers leading into the Peace River, and on the Parsnip they propose to put in five dredges this year. I do not know whether they will got them in or not, but that is their Hchemo, and taking it all through, there must be over three or four hundred people intending to go in there, to mine this year. The Chairman. — Is this progress just relating to the boom which Ih going on, or has it been steady ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — No, it is on its own account. The boom has nothing to do with it. They have been in there ihice yearH working. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — If there wore improvements made to get access into that country, you coulc supply them with provisions from the North-west and obtain a good deal of trade ? Hon. Mr. Reiu. — Yes. I have a flour mill and all that sort of thini;, and it would knock it colder than a wedge. But that does not matter. Wo want flour and beef, although we have good beef there, and I think we couli gft away with itall. It is a good maiket, and it opens up the whole mineral belt from one end to the other. The (ht airman. — Is there any mining between Quesnelle and the Canadian Pacific Railway ? Hon. Mr. Reip. — It depends on the direction you take. The Chairman. — On the Ashcroft route ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — Yes, if you go south of ray place, at Quesnelle, there is the Quesnelle River on which there is a great extent of mining, one of the largest hydraulic mines in the world is at the head of that river, the Cariboo River. Some of the Canadian Pacific Railway people are shaieholders in that, and further on is the Horsefly, and quite a number of companies are in there now, working and spending a lot of money. The Chairman. — That is south-west? Hon. Mr. Reid. — Yes, and it is nearly all mineral country to Ashcroft. You get out of Ashcroft 3(i miles and you find holes in the mountain, tapping ledges, and as you go on you find gold mines to the right and loft. You go to the left going up stream, and there is a very largo extent of very rich quartz mining going on there now. The Chairman. — A railway going in west from Edmonton on the old Canadian Pacific Railway survey — that would be almost as useful in fact, quite as useful would it not? Hon. Mr. Reid. — I think it is a shorter route. Say the objective point is Daw- f son, then any route you can project from Edmonton, and not only that, but you take the whole of these mineral bolts all the way through. The Chairman. — That is, to go to Edmonton on the old Canadian Pacific Rail- way survey and then work up north. Hon. Mr. Reid. — Y''e8, and by building over the Yollowhead Pass. T6to Jaune Cache is supposed to be the head of navigation and you can go down the river and up to the head of Tatlah Lake by water and then coming from my place, Quesnelle. if you want to take goods in that way, you go up the river from Fort George. Hon. Mr. Bellerose. — Are there any arable lands on that route ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — Yes, arable lands all the way. Hon. Mr. Bellerose. — What lands are there ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — Well, it is the vailey of the Eraser. «Hon. Mr. Bellebobe. — How many square miles ? Hon. Mr. Reid. — I can oidy give you approximately. It extends from Ash- ^croft to Quesnelle, a distance of 220 miles in length and in that valley there is pro- bably about two miles on an average, but then there are other valleys, grayling lands 200 miles north and south of it so thai. I could hardly give you an approximate area. The Chairman. — It is a narrow valley. Hon. Mr. Reid. — Yes, it is full of valleys. You could got out of one into an- other and it is a rolling country in between those two ranges of mountains; 3'^ou can- ,not say there is a mountain at all, it is rolling, and if you pass over a rough piece of fi'ound, then you got into another valley. 16 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. Hon. Mr. Keiu.— its, wic^ uio , «xtont th lem. Take what it* . Mr. R«.u.-Ye,, ILcy '"»»'; "'"'"'irb/a.ioitonttb.r; of 201) miles bv •''"Th^a/Xr-r-..- i" the B,,nk of Mon.roal a bi« cone of (old. It wa, '^"■Sf ut-Vb:r:aroSro:^t Qii^^SiV'-CJiVtZi ... o„e o, t^e """ HSl"Mr.' BELtrar-Would »n Ihul .ou.e f,om A.h»roft lo Tealin Lake be mounlainon. or a rnlher Hat >;«''' mountains «t all. We are inside of two "■° S'olMa';,r».-'Tl,». valley extend, all .he way a, to Telegraph Creek? £iia'r-,r;e^l";St"ClV;:tS;!,f.,,l the .kesand nver. are »y that ll.ere are auy arable lanJ» when y™f\'' I' ''«;»; f ' ^,„j elevation ; £:l;d:''i::i.:w\he"=nrT'u;rr'Ehr";r,,ea.lon of^^w grade ^ - railway. Committee adjoui-neil. for a liOUTKH TO THE TUKON. 17 B what is ) miloB bv raised all alti, it was )no of the 1 Lake be side of two I and south arough the ■th-west in reek? rivers are pretend to \ the line of t elevation ; grade for a Ottawa, 25th April, 1898. The Committee mot this day. Tlio Honourable Mr. Boulton, Chairman. His Grace Bishop Grouard. — I wont first to this Athabasca uountry in 1862, as Catholic missionary for the Indians and a few French half-breeds. I have remained there all my life since then, and I have lately been made bishop over thoMc missions which 1 helped to establish durin*; these years. At first 1 was there as a young priest, but when our own bishop died about sever, years ago I was appointed bishop, and I am now bishop for all this counlr; in the North-west of Canada, Alaska and the Mackenzie River district and this Yukon country — all this Canadian territory on the east side of the mountains. When I was consecrated bishop 1 made my headquarters near I'ort Chippewyan at the mouth of tho Peace J?iver, because it was more central for the Mackenzie River country, tho Peace Kiver country and Athabasca. I was a ])rie8t tho first year at Lake Athahasca. and in 1863 I went to Providence, on the Great Slave Lake, on the bank of the Mackenzie River; that very same year I was sent down to Fort Simpson at the mouth of the Liard and up to P'ort Nelson. That was my first visit in 1863, and every year follovvini^ till 1872, 1 went up tho same way to Fort Liard and up again to Fort Nelson. The navigation was by canoes and by what they called York boats, and they still use York boats to go up to Liard and Fort Nelson. The Liard is capable of navigation by steamboat. Above Fort Simpson there is a great rapid. The current is very strong for about four miles. The Hudson Bay Company takes up the York boats; they put half the cargo ashore below the rapid ami take half the load up, returning for the other half, so that there is no poriage. In the middle of July tho water is pretty high, and there is no footing because theie are steep banks on every side and we wait for the water to get lower in order to give us a footing on the left side going up. After that there is no trouble going up the Liard as far as Ilalkett for steamboat navigation and up the Nelson River there is no trouble with a stern wheel steamer. They could go to Fort Nelson and beyond Fort Nelson. I never spent a winter at Fort Halkett. I wont through the mountains to visit the mountain Indians. There is nothing but mountains there and valleys. I crossed several of these mountains to go where tlic Indians were. It is very easy travelling. A railway could be built there, but of course, ihat is not the best route. I have travelled many times there, but I never went up to Fort Halkett. I stopped below iit. There is a very strong current there and you have to make a portage. It is Ipretty hard to get to that landing. I never went on to the navigable waters of tho Iteaee River. From p]dmonton to Dunvegan there is a pack trail. They cut a road llast fall, hut I do not know whether they finished it. We take all our goods for the Imissio!) that way, and the Hudson Bay Company, tho traders and the miners do the same. Tho rate of freight from H'.monton to Peace River is about five cents a jound. From Dunvegan to St. John the banks of the Peace River are veiy high. ;'he valley is not very broad. There are some low flats there. Our missions have settled there and they raise very good crops in the valley. I have recently purchased grist mill. The Indians and the half-breeds came to me and said, "We have Borne grain, but what can we do with it? You have to help us by getting a jrist mill." That is what they told me. I purchased a grist mill with boiler and Steam engine in order to help these poor men. I have one mill at Slave Lake 5—2 [ 18 iiourKs TO /'/It; ) uhox. v.'liicli is rMiiiiihf, at th« proneiit limt', .nul tlio otlior in jmt iin !i( tho fork of Smoky Kiver, on Peaio |{ivt'r. There is aiiotln-i- ,i,'rif*l tnill crocicii by a iliidson Bay man, Mufken?.ie, who Vame and heltleil there. We have the power, and we not only ^rind but we tlireHh. The hanks of tho Peace liivor uro aboiU .")()() oi (!()() feet hifj;h. Of courHC, yoii would liavo to iMiLciiieer a ;j;reat deal toeoii>trurt a railway aciosH there, hut il ean ho ilono. The lianks hprcad hefore you iTa(di tho top, and it in rather broad. It would he uoeeHsary to huihi u hrid^'e just at the level of the la".ds. There wouiii lio no diffleully in douif; so. A bridge built across from table land to table laiKJ would not bo lon^'er than the bridifo across tho Ottawa al)ovc this city. The banks are perpendicular and \i ))laces Ihe river expands and in other places it yols narrower. It would bo (piite praelicablo to conhlriiet a suspension bridge. Tho character of the land i> 1,'ood. it is capal)le of cultivution tVoni Kdtnonton to Peueo Kiver and beyond I'eaco itiver to the Nel-on Kiver, ! ut. of coui'se, after you have passed these piairies the land is wooded. The Indians travel from St. John to Fort Nelson with horses. If you want to i^o in a siraitjhl lino you could strike Fort Nelson. From I)unoi;an north vvc-terly to Fort Nelson there is a pack trail which for years the Indiuns have been aeusloined to use with their horses to travel between Fort Nelson and the Peace Kiver. There are no mountains worth speaking of. Of course you arc goinu; parallel with the mountains :ind not crossing thoni. [t is far to the east of the mountai-is. The navigation ot th/ Peace Kivor is good. Wo go up to the foot of the mountains and there is a canyon mere which it is impo-siblo to pass. There is a portage of twelve miles. The trailers come in from liriiish Columbia up tlie Fraser and come i low i\ the mountains ihrouijh the Parsnip Ftiver. The Find lav is unoiiior river wliicdi Joins the i'arsnip. The traders iisc. i> luivl to this oUy. pliic'i's it II hriiljic. noiiloii to jiftor yoii t. John to Inko Fort mil which ;1 hotweon 111^ of. Of It is Far Wom;oui) bio to pass. )lumbia up 3 Findliivis ray to Fort ruble, but 11 bo low Vor- luough and 30 remedied The ttgi'i- Hide of the iits i^rowth. marshes in I Dt tirst on at tirst, but lavo frozen lat has been ■oublcdwith itiful wheat, Ron touched 10 sun ; there raise crops 1-0 the frost m Kdmonton )U8S through pretty good and Peace ween Lesser if you go 0. Between ;i8 you go up ■ce or four or a prairie and /or to Nelson country. It Ih. We Bome- nd the poplar lore would be make a good wagon trail as tar as the Nelson Hiver. WagoiiH could go up there very well and it would bo a good road. I will tell you why that would help a good deal. There are lots of minors who are goin;; to exploro ilu> Mackonzie rivers and ihoy inquired what 1 thought. They wanted to go to the Klondike and the coui\try is already occupied. But if there is gold on the west of the iiocky Mouiitains there is gold on the east hide. It ii not nIiowii on the maj), but the liock}- Mountains are Just in the middle, and (ho Ma'.'ken/.io iH on the east side and the Viikoti on (he west side. The livers running into the Yukon boar gold. People siiy, why should not the rivers on the oast hide boar gold as well ? Lots of men are going to jirospeet those rivers and the Liard River. We will have lots of people pasning there not only in summer liutin winteralso, Theordinary way is by the Athabasca Jtivoiand eiowsing (ireat Slave Lalce. \\\' havor,i])iil> in the Athabasca Riverand rapids halt way bolwoon Athabasca Lake anil (ireat Slave Laki-, and that (Jreal .Slave Lake is not open for navigation until the end of June. That is a gieat drawback. In the middle of April the Nelson Kiver and the Mard open, and you can run down lo the .Mackenzie more than one month before 30U can iross (ireat .Slave Lake. Yon can get into the country ot the Mackonzie Kiver, which will bo oiCU|)ied by a largo number f jjrospectois, and you can get supplies in there quite easily. .\s to the mineral deposits in that region, 1 know veiy well that all along the Liard llivor g >ld has been found. There is a river called the Toad River which is not shown bore. I know a ILidson Hay man who WIS engaged t(> put up a little station tor the ('ompany tlieio. Wo went there and made a shanty, a log house, and built a mud chimney. Ho mudded his house, but was not looking for gold, and he was very much surprised in the winter when ho made a tire, to tind gold dropping from his chimney. It came from the mud. lie is still iheio and he is now a clerk of the Hudson Bay Company. All along the Liard River there is gold as well as in Peace Kivor. 1 have been there myseit and have seen miners getting gold on the sandbar. Beyond Fort Halkelt it would be easy travelling and no mountains. From Dunvegan to l"\)rt Nelson, it is about ten days' travel with pack trails, and Fort Nelson to Fort Halketl, it would not bo more than that. I never heard of people travelling with hor os there, that is between Forts Nelson and JIalkctt. These Indiatis who have horses ore in these prairies on Peace River, and the prairies aro on the oast side of the mountains. These mountains are sloping, and there are lots of prairies add they can feed their horses lluMc. Nelson lliver flows into a wooded country, and the Indians do not keep horses there. They do not use them to go to Halkelt. They use their canoos in the summer and their dogs in the winter. They have a pack trail from Nelson lo llalketf. The winter before last, there was a young man at Fort Haluott who crossed by land to Fort Liurd, and it took him six days. I never crossed that wuy, but if I were not here at tho present time I would bo there. I was here this winter and I started the 5th of February, and it took two months to go up with dogs and Knowshoes. 1 came up hero from Providence to Fort Resolu- tion, and to Fort Smith on Slave Lake, and Chippewyan on Athabasca Lake, and to Fort McMurra}- and the Athabasca River, and we came from there b}" Lac la Biche to Edmonton. There would be no groat oiiffinoering difficulties to contend with in building a railwaj^ — nothing, for instance, like we seo on the Canadian Pacific Rail- way at Lake Superior. There is plenty of grass and plenty of hay. Wo have cattle at our missions. It takes about ten days to go to Dunvegan, and from there to Fort |Nelson ten days, and from Nelson to Liard ton days. The Liard falls into tho Mac- "kenzie. Then from Halkett to tho Polly you might make a cart road. I never wenl beyond that, but I know canoes and boats are used to go up from Francis Lake and from there there is a pirtago. I know people who have gone through there. 1 know the man who tirst discovered the Polly River — Robert Campbell — ■who called it Pelly from the name of Sir Pelly, tho head of the Hudson Bay Com- pany. He was at Fort Chippewyan when I was there first. He was the first one sent by the Hudson Bay Company. They had a post there and he had an interpreter 'named Fran9ois Houle. They wont upfrora Fort Halkett to Francis River and they came to Francis Lake, and Mr. Campbell gave it the name of Francis Lake after his .interpreter. Then they came to the Pelly River. The river was the head of the 5— 2J 20 ItOUTES TO TIIK YUKON lIudHon Hay ('ompiiny. Tliul was an old oliiof arxl an Uudcon Kay man. Tlicro waM a rapid alho culled liy tho namo ol' thin intcrpioter, l{a| id llniijf. ThoroirtH fino Mtream down tlio Polly till you i^cl to llio YuUon, and tlio Yukon taUoH ifH name tlioro. It wan Ilobort (-'ampljcil who |)Mt ii|> tlio Kort at Selkirk, hut the Fort did not Hiand then* hccnuHi' the Indianw from the coaMt. who nnod to tiado with the poopio of tho intorior wore vory joalouM ol'tho Hudson Bay Company and ciime and pilla^fcd lh« l''oit ami old lloulo was oblit^ud to run away. The company thon ^iivo up all tlicso Htations. Tho I'eilcy Kivor Ih Davii,fahlo all tho way up except ihin rapid. Y(hi come to the ra|)idH juHt at the head of tho INdloy Kivor. It Ih rwivifjalilo Jor a h-torn-whcolor. She could go u|) easily — no diffieultioH at all. From my knowledge of the country there would ho no ditlicully in buiidirg a lailway at* far aH I have bi^en accuHtomed to travel, oh far aH the Nelwon Uivo.' — no diffleulty at all — except that Peace l{iver has high hardfH and Smoky Kivor in tho same. Hut they could manage to cro>*H. Smoky River fallH into the Peace Fiiver ; the banks are as high uh tho Peaeo Kivor hut they could cross holow Smoky Kivor. The lank"* are r)0() feet, at leant, and in placoM <»00 feet. The baidts at Kdmonton aro also high, but not so high as at Peace River. I crossed i'ine River liut novor went aersss the mountains. I hoar it would bo suit- able for a railway. There would be no diffleulty in making a pack road so that cattle and horses could he taken through there at an early date. The first j)arty of surveyors opened a wagon road across that part. Not over live years ago there was an Englishman, tho Duke of Somerset who went out there ami euijagcd our people. Thoy wanted ni(* to write him. The last time I saw him was throe years ago. They took him over the Pine Rivor with horses and came back and they wore satinfied with bis treatment. They wanted mo to write him alter be reached England, the wanted to have news from England. Tho F'ine |{ivor Pass is quite practicable hocau not long ago people passeil over it. Coal is to be seen on the Athabasca and up tb Peace Kivor and all along Mackenzie River. That is a coal basin. I have a steamboat now of my own in which 1 travel through Great Slav.; Lake down to tho Mackenzie River. Wo did not use coal, because there is lots of timber still. It is soft coal — bituminous. The traffic on tho Athabasca River was very much embarrassed. There are oighty-tive niiles ot consecutive rapids before you reach Fort McMurray. From the landing here up to the Grand Knpids it is very nice, but it is dangerous navigation over that eighty-five miles of rapids. You irquiro good guides and peo- ple accustomed to handle the boat, otherwise there would be gr'eat danger of losing tho boat and its occupants. There is another rapid at Fort Smith. The Hudson Bay's Company steamboat runs I etwcen Fort McMurray and Fort Smith, and thoy go over those eightytivo miles of rapids on fiat boats. The company has a steamer below those rapids. It is a sea-going steamer. They have to run down the Mac- kenzie Rivor, which is very deep ; thoy have a screw steamer. At the end of Sep- tember the ice gets round in tho hays on lakes Athabasca and Great Slave Lake, but in the middle of October you can sometimes cross over satiely. It is open from the first of July to the middle of October. 1 have been down the Mackenzie Rivor to the mouth. You can go up the Peel River. There is a Iludsnn Bay Fort there. Every Slimmer 1 remaineii in the country I made that trip. I have' missionaries who pay the whalers a visit every summer. I have a mission of two priests, and one of them goes every summer to visit the Esquimaux, and he pays a visit to the whalers of Herschel Island. There are as man3Mis seven steamers, and sometimes ton, whaling, but of lato they did not find so many whales. Last summer I went there and saw the father, and he told me tho whales had begun to disappear. They had been killed out a little too much, so the whales are net so numerous now. Perhaps there were five or six steamers last winter. About thoso whalers that were frozen out, I heard some whalers went out last fall and they were crushed in the ice. Part of tho crew died and only a few escaped to bring the news that the steamer had been wrecked. 1 heard that down here. All through those lakes fish are very plentiful. That is what wo depend upon for food at Lake Athabasca, Great Slave Lake, Great Bear Lake, and all along the Athabasca River. There are lots of fish coming up from the sea in summer. In winter wo fish in the lakes. There are \ 1. TImto rhoi o irt u I Yukon Tort lit itiH Irom ior wore L uinl oUl Htiitions. TIC to tho iclcr. She iitry there iHtomcii tf> River hus 48. Smoky M- but they j)hu'OH (iOO River. I Id bo Buit- i(i so thut Ht i)urty of loro was an )ur people. lino. They ore KUtiBtieil if^luivtl, the' iblo beciUi unci up tl. II Bleiimbout ) MiicUenzie i »oft coal — mbarrassed. McMurray. 8 dangerous ies and poo- ler oi" losing 'he Hudson ,h, and they .is IV steamer vn the Mac- end of Sop- ,ve Lake, but len from the izie River to y Fort there. missionaries priests, and iviBit to the ,d sometimes ramer I went lo disappear. imerous now. ers that were jod in the ice. steamer had fish are very ., Great Slave •e lots of fish 8. There are iiouTEs TO run ruKox. n white fish ; there are no Nturjjenn l(» be ton. id there, mid snlmnn is nut to be found. There is 11 kind otMilmon vviiioli >cuMitiHts eitll tbu Mui'ken/.io Mihnnii. Wo cull it the Ineonnu, the lliiknown. Nobody ever saw the like of it. It is something tiku a salmon. Tlio learned |)i'oplt! who camo I'loin the Siales visited tlial ''uiintiy in order to gather spocitnen!» and |il.inls, and they cii lied ihat the .Mackenzie Hiltnon. The ruilrou'l touching tln^ Liard would oikmi ^teanl eomnninicalion uti tb ' Llard and on the Maikoiizie without any (disiruclion. ICa railway (•rosscd the Lianl it would open up nnvigaiion all the way on the Mackenzie without any obhtiiiction long before il could be opened any other way, on aecouiit of the ice in the lakes. About the midt' the country and lidlp the people. Mr. 1'. ('. I'ambrun, who is now at Uattlelorl, was up in the Yukon country once and was no irl v starving to death, lie barely escaped. He is well acquainted with all that country. .lust after tjio discvivory of the Pelly River by Roliert Campbell, be went u|i there io ostablish a i'^ort. R ibort Campl)ell died two or three years ago. His son, (ilen Campbell, has gone up there with a party. There was a man who diod up there this winttir, a .Mr. Roid. lie was a Hudson May man. We were travelling sometimes on the Mackenzie and on the Liard. He was up there and became a clerk, and he tolil r ^ that in winter, the Fort being distressed, ho started out (,n the Yukon alone in his own sleigh with sotiu" provisions, blankets, an u.xe, snow-shoes, und nothing else — not even a companion, lie lollowed the Liard and came to Fort Simpson, which was the In ad-quarters of the Company. He was bringing news of the >lale ot alfairs in the Pelly River, and he wont back a^ain along that way in tin same winter. At Fort llalkett ho found some help. That was before 1 went in there, perhaps in 1S.")H — forty years ago. If he were alive be would be the man to give you information, because he went further than I did. Ho wont there without liogs or anything from I'elly River, which is tho head of the Yukon. When you aro thore you are a^ the head watei'S of the Yukon, which in n.avigable tiien to the ocean through Alaska. li liOUTES TO THE YUKOX. Ottawa, 2Sth April, 1898. Comraitlee met this dav. The Honouruble Mr. Boolton, Chairman. Air. Frank Omver, M.P., of Alberta, appoarod boCoro ihe Committee, and was examined by the "ommiUee at; follows : — The Chairman. — You wrote to me Mr. Oliver, about Mr. I'amlu'um ? Mr. Oliver. — Ves. The Chaiuman. — I coinmuriicatod with him and ho oxpiessed hia willin a-^cortain what you thought, as to the assistance Mr. Pambruni would bo to the committee. Mr. Oliver. — Mr. Pambrum was the Hudson Bay otlicer in charjre of the forts or tradiiii; jiosts which wore situated, one on Francis Lake near the head of Liard liiver and the other on what they call the Polly baidis ; that is, on each side of the divide between the watoisof the Liard and the Yukon. He resided at Francis Lake but conducted a business at I'olly Banks and therefore had to pass back and for- wards across this divide about tifly miles, lie was there from tivo to ten years — I cannot say whether it was five or ton, but it was somethinf^ like that. In I'eaching those posts, of course ho hatl to travel the lenf;th of the Liard IJiver to Fort Francis so that lie necessarily must be very well acquainted with that part of the country, lie is a man ot good intelligence and eilucation, and although now he is of considerable ago, ho is still possosseil of his full faculties, and ho could give a clear and intolligoiit account of what he saw and know at the time ho was there, and I would consider that if the committee desire to liavethe first hand in regard to that country, his information would be the most valuable of any that I know of — that is, sup|)iementary of course, to the information supplied by Professor Dawson who made an examiratiou and survey of the same countiy. Professor Dawson, of course, gis-es the measurements and heights and tlo|Hhs and so on ol everything, and tolls what he saw when he wa; there, but of course .Mr. P.imbrum was there year in and year out for a number of years, and back and forward, and therefore he would bo able to give a great deal of information, supplemental to that supplied by Mr. Daw- son, and of quite as groat value in his way. The Chairman. — Thai would bo continuing the evidence given by Bishop Girouard, who only wont as far as Kort Halkott on the Molson. Tliis evidence is in regard to the countiy between Fort Nelson and the mouth of the Policy. Air. Oliver. — Yes. The Chair-man. — Mr. Pambrum is awaiting a telegram to start whenever he is assured that his expenses will be paid. Mr. Oliver. — I would say he was certainly in a position to give information. Kort Simpson was the point from which the trade of the Pelly Fiiivor was carried. This is the head fort of the Mackenzie River district. From that point trade was carried on up the Liard and down to Fort Selkirk, and it was at this point that Fort Selkirk was established. Mr, Pambrum was in charge of this post, and resided at the post of Francis Lake, but was also in charge of the post over on Pelly River and used to make inspection trips across several times from one point to the other nil of ex eit oft whi thii ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 2S 1898. 56, and was llingness to too uro just itl the com- it, us to the of tlio t'orta vJ of Liard side of the rancis Lake ick and for- en years — I In reaching H)rt Francis Kirt of tho h now he is iould give a H!s there, and gard to that ■ of — that ia, )awHon who 11, of course, ng, and tells year in and ho would bo by Mr. Daw- by Bit-hop vidonco is in lonover ho is information. was carried, nt trade was lis point that and resided 1 Polly River to the other 1 and he had to conio down tho Liard to Fort Simpson and to go back, and sometimes ho had to travel part by land, so that if it isdosirablo to got information in regard to the climati'oi- coiiditior or practicability of travel by land or water on the Liard 1 River and tho Peliy, why, certainly this man is thoroughly able to give the infor- mation. Hon, Mr. Drcmmond. — This is tho Rorky Mountain range y(ni are pointing to^ and I),' is apparently tho only pass tiirounh it. Mr. Oliver. — No. thiTO are many passes, but the jiass by the Liard River is 4t the widest ]):iss. It is tho most complete lireak that occurs in tha whole Rocky Mountain range according to Professor McConnoU's report. lie rrjnorts liiat the Rocky Mountain range, which extends from Mexico practically unbi-oken. with just narrow parses in it, right up to the L'ard River, ends tlioro at the Liard River, and comnic-nces atjain eighty miles t'nrthor east on the north side of tho Liard and continues on to liie coast, so that while on the Peace River there is a comi)lete break in tho ranjic, a complete cut in the range, at the Liard there is an absolute breaking otfof iho range, .so that as a matter of fact on tho Liard River according to I'rolessor McCJoniieirs report, there is no mounla'i range to cross. The mouiuains are not there, and that is the only place in Ih' whole range where this occurs where there is a complete break in the range, mo part ends and tho other begins, so thai there is eighty miles between, and thai is why it \xould appear to me that by way of the Liard iiiver is by ail odds the best means of i,fetting from the east side of the mountains to the west, with eiihor wagmi road, railroavl, or any other road. That is why 1 have always advocated trying to reach the Liard River east of the mountains. Hon. J\Ii. Macdonald (B.C.) — What pass would you take to get thore? The White River jiass? Mr. Oliveii. — No, 1 have always advocated keeping east of the mountains until you reach the Liaid River, a id then pass in to the west of the mountains on the Liard River. Hon. Mr. Dkummonu. — Where it crosses the mountains the Liard River must be ninety or one hundied miles further north than the Peace River? .Mr. Oliver. — Oh, it is 300 mil^s north. It is about three hundred miles north of the Peace River. Hon. Mr. Dku.msioni>. — That is one degree, is it not, Mr. Oliver? Mr. Oliver. — Nt), 'L is o\er l! roe degrees. Hon. Mr. Perley.— There i-. no cheap rate on that part of the railway. Mr. Oliver. — You cm get to Regina as cheaply as you can to Vancouver — $25. If you can come to Regiiiii for $25, tho railway fare to Saskatoon would bo less than five viollars, and then 3'ou take tiio stage for ninety' miles, which would cost ))robably ten dollars more. lion. Mr. Wood. — One Imiuiied i'.nd fifty dollars would nnt be excessive. Mr. Oliver. — No, 11 would cost fjl50 anyway. Hon. Sir John Carlino — He said he would come in for $15t) and pay his own expenses. Mr. Oliver. — lie might do it. The CiiAiR.MAN. — You know tlio object of the committee, Mr. Oliver; it is to ascertain the best means of connecting the railway communication of ('aiiada with the Yukon region, and as you live at Edmonton and are acquainted with the country in that disti-ict, wo would be very glad indeed to hear what evidence you would like to place liefore the committee. Mr. Oliver. — Railway communication you mean? The Chairman — No; to connect tho Y^ukon trade with our railway system, either waggon train or railway or anything at all. Mr. Oliver. — Well, I would prefer to answer quostions juit by ihe members of tho committee or the chairman of tho committee, as I do not know just exactly what is required. 1 might waste a grealdeal of time tolling the coinmittoe some- thing they knew Letter than myself. Hon. Mr. McCallttm. — How long have you lived in that country? 24 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. Mr. Oliver. — \ have lived there twenty-two years. Hon. .>rr. McCALr.uM.— You can give a description, and wo c.^n question yoti aa you proceed. Mr. Oliver. — [ would be glad if when I ara speaking the members of the com- mittee would break in on mo whenever they desire information. Hon. Mr. McCallum.— I car, tell a good deal :ibout the country as far as Edmonton myMcif. 1 saw .Mr. ()liver there once not very long ago. The Chairman.— Toll us what means of communication there are to the Pelly Eiver. Mr. Omvek. — At the pre-ent time there are no means of communication directly from Kdmonlon to the Polly River. The trade road that formerly existed, by which trade was fir.st carried into the Yukon was by way of the Mackenzie River and Fort Simpson up to the Liard. as I mentioned. lion. Sir .fonN Cakmng. — You say that there is no way of communication ? Mr. Oliver. — 1 say there is no present route of travel or means of communica- tion in Use. lion. Sir .Ioiin Carling. — 1 understand a roa(in up ihe Liani River and over to the Polly. The tii'st trade that was ever dono in the Yukon was done on this route up the Liard and down the Polly, and Fort Selkirk was ostabliched as the princi])al post for that trade from Fort Simpson; but thei'o was never any direct travel from Fdmonton over to the Liard, and since the coa-t routes have been opened up, or, in fact, l>eforo the coast routes into the in'orior were opened up, hut when the coast trade was developed it drew the Indians away from Fort Selkirk to the coast to do their trading, and conse- quenll}' the irade at Fort Selkirk l)ocamo unpi'oHtable and wasabandoiu'd ; and that route of travel has boon abandoned foi a number of j'oars, so I say now there is no existing louto of travel into the Yukon from iho Eiimonton side in use, that Ils, to the Peily River. lion. Sir John Carling.— Could you say how tar \\\. the Pelly River from Fort Selkiik it is navigable? Mr, Oliver. — According to Dr. Dawnon's report ii ig navigable with ordy one short break right ui) to this portage, that is, to tlio point where the portage from the Fnuicis Lake strikes the Polly River. Hon. Sir.loii.N ('arli.ng. — That is from Fort Selkirk? Mr. Oliver. — Yes. it is navigable all the way up there except a short distance about thirty niilos below, which ho called lloule's Canon. The river is nearly 400 feet wide and seven feat deep at this point. Hon. Sir .Ioiin Carling. — What is the distance from Selkirk to that ])oin Mr, Oliver. — Between 250 and IKIO mi es. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — Can you toll us the length of the rapids? You spoke of thirty miles. .Mr. Oliver. — No, that is the good navigation. The rapid is about halt a mile in length, but he mentions in his report — I do not know whether I can just turn it up at the moment or not — that the river is navigable for steamboats, frotn that rapid right down to the mouth. Hon. Sir John (^vri.ing. — That is from Selkirk. Mr, Oliver. — From Selkirk on down. So that us a matter of fact when you reach the northern end of the ]K)itage from the waters of the Liard to the waters of the Polly, you then have steamboat communication all through the Yukon dis- trict and another point is that there are no lakes on the Pelly River. Now the lakes in the northern country open very much later than the rivers do, so that, supposing this route were adopted, you would have navigation at least a month mo th( knc Ri^ and the COUT of Th reso as ft cons diffl( un f ROUTES TO THE YUKOX. 26 on yo>i aa f iho com- as fur as tho Pelly on directly 1, by which ir and Fort cation ? lommunica- ost finished relied. Tlie of tlie Mac- id out from Je that was •11 tho Polly, lo from Fort :o the Liard, coast routes oped it drew i, and conse- I'd ; and that ,■ tlicro is MO jO, that is, to er from Fort rith only one loitage fiom ,hort distance s nearly 400 at poin V You spoUe It halt a mile m just turn it atH, from that fact when you to the waters the Yukon dis- :er. Now the IS do, so that, least a month earlier on tho waters of the Yukon than you would by way of the Teslin Lake or Chilkoot Pass route, because on these routes you pass through certain lakes which everybody knows do not open as earl}' as the rivoi' ; although it may not be an important matter I think it may be well to mention, that by this route yon do not pahS through any lakes; therefore you are not delayed by their late opening in the spring; so that as a cteamboat proposition, the Pefly branch of tho Yukon is the best branch for sieamboat purposes. Hon. Mr. Wood. — That is better than the Hootalinqua River? Mr, Oliver. — Yes, that is unless yon build your railroad or wagon roail or whatever you have, to the foot of Teslin Lake. Perhaps then if the Hootalinqua River were as good a river for navigation as the Pelly — which it is not — then you would be on an equality as far as lakes are coiicerned ; but at tho present lime, if you only build to the south entl of Teslin Lake vou have to wait for the late opening of Teslin Lake, and then you have tho very interior navigation of the Hootalinqua River, is compared with the Pelly River where there are no lakes, and no donbtt'ul navigation, because the stream is 'nuch larger. Hon, .Mr. Wood, — Does that report state tho depth of water in the Peliv River ? Mr. Omver. — Ye-, [ think it does, Hon. .M.vcDoNAM) (P.K.I ) — How long is the Pelly River frozen over? Mr. Oliver. — 1 think Dr. Dawson gives it in this book, but it would be well perhaps for the committee to I'all Dr. Dawson, aiid ol course, he can give much more infoi mation, I am only referi-iiig to his reports now. Hon, Mr. McCallum.— Y'oii speak of calli -g Dr. Dawson an I .Mr. McConnoU ? Mr. Oliver. — Yes, it will l)e very desirable, 1 think. Tho Policy River at the point reached here is ;?2(i foot wide, with a current slightly exceeding two and a half miles an hour, and a middle depth of seven fee* Hon. Mr. Perley. — Whore is that ? Mr. Oliver. — At the northem end of the portage from the Liaid River: that is across the divide. That is the objoctivo point I should consider on the Kdmonton route to the Yukon, Hon. Sir ,Ioiin Carling, — What would be tlie distance from there to Kdmonton ? Mr, Oliver, — From that point to Edmonton is just about 1,000 miles. The CiiAiR.MAN. — That is Dr. Dawson's repoi'l you are quoting frnni? Mr. Oliver. — Yes ; of couise on that point Mr. Pambrum coul not exactly flat, but it is not hilly. The soil is very deep and rich and very productive. It is not entirely a prairie and it is not entirely timber. It is partly timbered and partly prairie and it ib a very desirable country for a settlement and many ])eople are going m there, and the route is of coui'so travelled in the ordinary way out as far as the Pembina River. It isashallow stream and is generally favourable, but in high water it has to b(^ ferried. The North-west (Jovernment has made ai-rangements for putting a ferry on the Pembina River on this trail. Hon. Mr. Pk.kley. — How large is the Pemliirui? Mr. Oliveu. — I cannot give you the measurements. It is contained in some of these rcpoi-ts. It probably would lie a couple of hnndi'cd feet wide, but it is a shallow river. The Chairman. — Quite easily bridgahle? Mr. Oliver. — No, it is not so easily bridgahle. not on account of the volume of water, but on account of the width. It is what you call a fording river — a river that is easily fordablo on account of its depth. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — What ])oint is the Xorth-west Government trying to reach by opening up this trail ? Mr. Oliver. — The Peace River. They wish to make the Peace River accessible by team, which it is not at the pre-ent lime. Hon. .Mr. McCalmim. — Are the capabilities of that country affected by frost? Mr. Oliver. — Ye.s, sometimes. Hon. .Mr. Mo'J »llum. — A good deal, are they not? Mr. Oliver. — No, I cannot say a good deal. Hon, Mr. McCallum. — More than at Kdmonton ? .Mr, Oliver. — Of course, there are })laces there whore the country resembles Ontario to a certain extent, and where ther'e is a swampy tract of course that is frosted, but where it is high and rolling it is not frosty, Hon. Mr. .McCallum.— Are the crops very large, generally speaking ? .Mr. Oliver. — Yes, but of course if you are on flat land or near a swamp, the chances are they are going to bo frozen. On the other hand, if you are on dry land . the chances are they will ripen all right. 1 cannot -ay the country is frosty or not frosty. It is frosty or not frosty according to the characlei' of tho location. Hon, Mr. McCallum. — It is a gieai country for grass ? Mr. Oliver.— Yes, the grass grows luxuriantly. The prairie grass grows two or three feet high. Hon. Sir John Carlinq.— All th.. way from Edmonton to the river? drivii Lokcl ConiiT the N Edm of till trail thi'oii Lakel factof a larj unsatl and if road withd their the oil tJie pi good in, an| West tJ'y ar ^that il # ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 27 the chief kind, and rer, might (1 at about t)le one for lakes." any point, i the only Lhe bridge. ;hty miles, lately and liver going es will take ;on over to ho Pembina •ountry is a The soil is iind it is not ry desirable route is of ', is a shallow irried. The the Pembina d ill some of but it is a ho volume of ivor — a river Government ver accessible 1 by frost? ry resembles course that is ing ? a swamp, the •c on dry land frosty or not alion. ass grows two ler? Mr. Oliver. — Yes, lhe growth is very luxuriant, more so than any other part of lhe territory. Hon. Sir ,Toiin Carlinq. — The distance to the Peace Eiver is 26i» miles ? Mr. OliTVEH. — Yes, but 1 am speaking of the road out to the Pembina, or tiie Pembina out to the Athabasca. Tiie country is more hilly and more limbered, and consequently more broken. The soil is still rich and the growth is fine, but there is no settlement in there as yet. However, that is as far as a wagon road exists at the present time — to the Athabasca. From Lho Athabasca over to the Little Slave River, a distance of about 120 miles, the country is consideral)ly more hilly. There is a low area in between, callod the Deer Mountains. That country is almost entirely timbered from the Atliabase!i to the Slave River; it is almost entirely timbered. Hon. Mr. McCam.um. — Do you know whai kinds of timber? Mr. Oliver. — Yes, it is poplar, spruce and tamarack, and Jack pine. The prin- cipal wood is the pojilar and spruce, and a good ileal of spruce, I am told. Hon. Mr. Wood. — Docs the route go to the east or west of Litilo Slave Lake ? Mr. Oliver. — It goes to the west; it passes the west end. Hon. Mr. Wood. — Little Slave River is to the east. .Mr. Oliver. — Yes, but it does not touch Slave Lake. Hon. Mr. Wood. — L thought that was what j'ou were speaking of Mr. Oliver. — No, the Atliabasca River. The trail is marked on the map. Hon. Mr. Wood. — 1 understood you to say it was 120 miles to the end, Mr. Oliver ? Mr. Oliver. — It is, to the end of Little Slave Lake. The Chairman. — That is what has been marked out for the wagon trail ? Mr. Oliver. — Yes; there was a pack trail across there, and the North-west Government went to woik last winter to cut that out into a wagon load, and have spent a good deal of money on it, and will have the work completed inside of a month. Hon. Sir Jon.\ Cahling. — That is from Edmonton to the Peace River? Mr. Oliver. — Yes. Hon. Mr. Dr'jmmond. — Who is doing that? Mr. Oliver. — The North-west Government. That country Is hilly and timbered, difficult to make a road through, and not ver}' good for agriculture anyway. If it is of any value, it is chiefly valuable for its timber at the present time. There is gra>s, however in swamps and openings, there is fool tor stock in driving or in travelling through there. Then from the west end of Lesser Slave Lake to Peace River eighty miles there is a wagon road opened by the Hudson Bay Company many j-ears ago and has been in use by them ever since; so that when the North-west Govornraent get their road finished there will bo an open road from Edmonton to Peace River — 26'0 miles. They reach the Peace River at the junction of the Smoky and the Peace. The way that goes at present into Peace River is by- trail from Edmonton on to Atliabasca Landing then up the Little Slave River through Little Slave Lake and then by wagon from the west end of Little Slave Lake up to the Peace River, over this little road I spoke about. While that is satis- factory enough for the Hudson Bay Company, or any business man doing business on a large scale who can afford to keep his own boats on these rivers, it is altogether unsatisfactory for lhe individual traveller or prospector who d<.os not own a boat, and it was for that reason that the North-west Government desired to cutout this road so that a man could hitch up his team at Edmonton and drive to Peace River without depending on anybody else. Although people migiit still probably get their goods in cheaper by using the water route than by land, yet it does not allow the ordinary prospector and traveller to go in and pitch his own tent, so that is why the Peace River lias been so long a sealed book, although eveiy one knew it was a good country. The ordinary prospector could not get in and therefore did not get in, and the country has been kept back to that extent, but this work of the North- west Government will let the people get in and see what there is there of the coun- tiy and make the most of it. That is the first stage of the road to Pelly River, so that in considering the cost or difficulty of opening a road from Edmonton to Pelly ROUTES TO THE YUKON. ! River, iiiHtoad ot coii.siderinf^ a thouHuiid miles you cotisideiotily seven hundred and forty miles, because the first two huntlrod and sixty miles is already attended to. Alonjr this Lesser Slave Lake in crossini^ from the Athabasca to Slave Lake, 1 men- tioneil a groat deal ol'the country was hill}' ai' 1 valueless tor agriculture, but when you got to the basin in which Slave Lake lie^ and this piece of country lying fiom Slave Liiko to Peace llivei', that is rich with luxuriant growlh. The Chairman. — Moie or less prairie. Mr. Oliver. — It is still considerably timbered but more prairie than in this hilly country thai lies in between. It is a good country. Hon. Mr. Wooi>. — Do you know how it is to the westward of that or on a line from Edmonton to Dunvogan — is it wooded there? Mr. Olivb:r. — Yes; there is another trail which goes more westerly than what I have been sketching to you, a pack trail, and that goes by way of Lake Ste. Anne and crosses the Athaba^ca at the mouth of the Macleod River, reaches Little Smoky River, crosses to Big Smok}', goes along the (iruiide Prairie and goes to Dunvegan. Fiom Ldmonton to the Lake Ste. Anno there is a settlement to the Pembina River, the country is good from the Pembina to Athabasca, but well timbered. Hon. Mr. Wooi». — Level ? Mr. Oliver. — Moderately level ; not flat but not broken. The Chairman.— Not mountainous'/ ^L-. Oliver — No, not at all. Then from the Athabasca to the Little Smoky it, is very much the same, heavily limbered, moderately rolling. You see by taking that route you miss tlu! Pass to the westward or those liiils I spoke about between Athaba^ca and Slave Lake. You are passing tli rough a fertile biu ..eavily woodoii country all the way to the Little Smoky Rivei-. Then from the Smoky River the timber gets lighter, much less from there to the Sturgeon I^uke and on to the Big Smoky it still i> light except in the valleys of the rivers. Then when you cross to Big Smoky you are im what is called the Grande Prairie — qflite a largo area — a prairie which lies south of Dunvegan and which jiractically continues to Dunvegan — a vciyfine country for grazing and possibly for farming if any one tried it. I think it is about sixty miles square. Hon. Mr, Power, — ILive you ever been over this country yourself ? Mr. Oliver. — No. I have been merely telling the c mmittee what I havo gathered from thosie who have travelled it. This trail 1 speak about I am veiy well posted on because a number of men went along that last summer and came back on it. However, there is a man right here in Ottawa — Henry Macleod, a surveyor who was employed by the Mackenzie government for the Ca'nadian Pacific Railway, who came through the Peace River country and down almost by the trail I am men- tioning so if 3'ou like you might call him and he would giveyou scientific information on the question. The Chairman. — What amount of navigation would there be from where you strike the Peace River there to its mouth ? Mr. Oliver. — The navigable stretch of Peace River from where yoa would enter ut the junction of the Smoky and the Peace River would extend to the chutes below Vermillion, that is a distance 1 would think of about 400 miles and the navi- gation is very good, the river is very large and the current is not exceedingly swift. The Chairman. — What mining operations are you brought into contact with at hkimonton ? Mr. Oliver.— At Edmonton the mining is cairied on on the Saskatchewan River. The gold is found as tine dust in the gravel bars in the river; I do not know whai the rivers are like down here. I do not think they form bars the same as they do up there. The Chairman. — It is like the sawdust in the Ottawa. Mr. Oliver. — It would work about the same as that. At high water the river carries a certain amount of floating material, and there is sand and eddy, in each eddy there is a deposit made, this deposit is built up from year to year ; then as the river falls this deposit becomes bare and that is what we call a ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 29 ndred and tended to. ke, I men- biit when lying from an in this ir on 11 line than what ) Ste. Anne tile Smoky Dunvegan. bina River, 10 Smoky it by taking )ut between ?ily wooiloii ' Jiivoi- the 11 to the Big you cross to irge area — a o Dunvegan t, tried it. I iiat I have m very well me back on a surveyor jHc Railway, 111 I am men- information where you 3'oa would the chutes id the navi- lingly swift. loMtact with kHkatchewan 1 do not [•8 the same water the sand and Irom year to lat we call a bar. It is in this bar that the gold is found, and ie brought down from year to year by the high water and deposited on tlie bar. Hon. Mil. McCallum. — Comes from the mountains. Mv. Oliver. — No, nobody knows whore it comes from, that is the mystery ; that is what everybody would like to know. It comes every year and is depo- sited in I ho eddies on the l)arrt every year. Then it is washed out from the gi-avel of the bars by the miners, principally by hand, using an apparatus which they call a grizzly and pick and shovel; the grizzly is simply a screen. The gra- vel goes into the dump l)ox above; the water washes ii then off the screen and the course gravel passes off on each side and these sand and gold go down into the sluice box and the gold is caught by the blanket as the water and sand gush over the blanket. Those bars are gold producing on the Saskatchewan for a distance of about eighty miles above Edmonton and from 100 to 200 miles below. Besides the hand miners there have of late years been several men who have put in dredges and tho dredge that seems to work the best is the scoop dredge The ordinary dredge that is used for dredging in the rivers that raises the gravel without difficulty, and then they wash it on tlie scow that carries the dredge. While they have no diffi- culty in raising the gravel with this scoop dredge they have the greatest difficulty in separating the gold and so far I do not think they have been very successful. if they could got the amount of gold out of the gravel that the hand miner gets, these dredges would be a fortune, but so far they have not been able to get that amount of gold. lion. Mr. McCallum. — The gold is very fine there. Mr. Oliver. — Yes, in fact it would not be visible to the naked eye except for its glitter ; that is why they call it a coloui-; you do not speak of grain of gold — you say colours of gold. Hon. Sir .John Cabling. — Von say the distance from Edmonton to Peace River is 260 miles of which you have a wagon road. Mr. Oliver, — Yes, or it would be provided for. Hon. Sir John Cabling. — How many miles of road would it require to reach the Polly River — pack road or wagon road — using navigation ? Mr. Oliver. — It depends on how much you wish to use of the navigation. Fo^ my part I wouid advocate that thex'e should be a pack trail all the way through. Tho Chairman. — Hidependent of navigation ? Mr-. Oliver. — Yes, because tho great desire on the part of the people of the territories to get an opening into the Yukon is that they maybe able to drive cattle in there in order lo secure a beef market, and of course, that way there would be some kind of land route all tho way, and we could not take advantage of the navig- ation for cattle purposes and the same with many of the prospectors who are going in taking pack ponies — they want a trail upon which to travel. Hon. Sir John Carliko. — Have you made any calculation of what it would cost per mile to make a pack trail from that point on the Peace River to the Pelley River wlioie it is navigable ? Mr. Oliver. — No, but it would be merely u matter of cutting out the timber to the width of about six feet or a little more ; I could not say what it would cost, it wouM depend, of course, a good deal on the cost of getting supplies or men up ; it might be twenty or thirty dollars a mile, but it would not be more than that for merely cutting a pack trail. Hon. Sir ,Joiin Carling. — Would you not want scows for crossing the rivers bridges and so on ? Mr, Oliver. — Yes, we would want many things if we could get them ; but if the timber was cut out the width of six feet from the Peace River cro.ssing to the Pelley River it would be possible to drive in cattle to the country so that we in the territories could got beef into the Yukon. Tho Chairman. — At the lowest rate for delivery ? Mr. Oliver. — Yes, any improvement that could be made on it would of course be very desirable, but if what I have said is done it would be very useful. IIOUTES TO THE YUKOX. lion. Mr. Drummond. — Do you think it would bo any use except you could have wiiool traffic as well ? Mr. Omver. — 1 will deal witii the wheel question airain ; I was roplyinij to the Hon. Sir Joliii Carling's question and I wiid wo want a througli jxick trail for the purpose of driving cattle in afoot and lotting pack ponies go in ; we want ihat and it will bo of groat advaniage. The Chairman. — That trail will cost only twenty or thirty dollars a mile? Mr. (^LiVKB. — Yes, and it would l)o of great a ivantage to the people of the territories if we could get that done ho that cattle could be driven up and pros- pectors coulil drive in l)y packs it would be worth very many thousands of dollars to the country. Hon. Mr. Power. — Abuit how many miles a day would a drove of cattle travel? Mr. Olivkr.— About tif een miles a day. lion. Mr. ,McCALLii.M. — From ten to twelve miles? Mr. Oi.iVER. — Yos; if the road was b;id you woultl not make that because you would have to drive slowly in order to keep them in condition. There are people now thinking of drivi^ig cattle in that way, but you cannot drive cattle through a dirticult country and keej) them in condition; arul that is why we are asking so per>islenlly foi- the oponing of a trail. Although we say the country is practicable, Btill it is one thing to get through, and it is (;uito another thing to get a herd of cattle through in a condition Ht for sale. 80 that loally unless there is something done to make the driving of cattle through easy — and all that is necessary is the cutting out of the timber for about six or ten feet wide — unless that is done no matter how good tlio country is we cannot expect that our cattle will be delivered in the Yukon in a profitable condition ; but we do claim that if that is done we can deliver cattle into the Yukon cheaply and in good condition. lion. Mr. Drummoxii. — It would take about four months to drive cattle to the Yukon ? Ml'. Oliver. — i^Tot to go to the Polly River, and they could easily urive them down or slaughter them and send th'm down. lion. Mr. IJRUMMOND. — It would take about three months to go at the least ? Mr. Oliver. — Not at the least — at the most if the road was open — on that point I may say that I myself, for a number ot years, drove from Winnipeg to Edmonton oxen and carts, a distance of a thousand miles with about one thousand pounds to the ox. It would take me about three months to make that trip of a thousand miles. Some wouM take about two months. The reason 1 took longer was because 1 wanted to have my cattle in a condition for beef when I got" to Edmonton. lion. Mr. .McCalldm. — Fatiening them at the same time? Mr. Oliver. — Not exactly fatiening them, but they were not losing flesh ; so when I got there, instead of wintering them I could sell them off for beef during the winter. I think that ought to settle the point as to the ])ractieability of driving cattle a thousand miles to market. lion. Mr. Cox. — It would be a better road from Winnipeg to Edmonton. Would not they have a good deal of difficulty along the route you mention on account of want of food ? Mr. Oliver. — Not any serious difficulty for wa' t of food ; but there would bo a ditference, because in this case the cattle would be going light, but in the case I mention from Winni|)eg to Edmonton they were hauling a thousand ])ounds apiece. There are men already' who are thinking of making preparations 10 make an attempt to put cattle through without the road. Hon. Mr. Perley. — You think that is practicable ? Mr. Oliver. — I cannot come to any other conclusion from the knowledge which I have acquired. Hon. Mr. McCalluji. — You said that your oxen drew a thousand pounds apiece ? Mr. Oliver. — Yes; that is a different country of course. Hon. Mr. McOallum. — There is grass in that country? HOUTES TO THE YUKON. 81 could have ,'in!^ to tho lil for tlio il iliiit and milo? iplo of the 1 and i)ros- 8 of dollars tile travel ? locause you ) are people I through a a askinir ho practicable, at a herd of s (Something jKsary is the is done no 1)0 delivered ioiio we can lattle to the urivo them leant ? en — on that innipej; to thousand at trip of a took longer n I got to ing fli'Hh ; 80 during the of driving iton. Would account of would bo a n the case I inds apiece. an attempt .^dge which inds apiece? Mr. Or-tVER. — Yes, there is grasH all the way through. Not as much as there is from Winnipeg to fCdmonton. as the country is partly timbered ; but from tho Govornnient reports and nny information I can gather from individuals who have gone through, I must conclude that there is food all the way. lion. Mr. McCai.lIjM. — SuHiciont ? Mr. OiavER. — Yes. Not, probably' sutticient to allow cattle being driven like thoy are on tlie prairie, that is hauling their own loads, but sufficient for travelling through light. That would cull for a cutting of seven hundred and forty miles of pack tiail, from six to ten feet wide, through timber where timber existed, and the country is principally timbered. lion. Mr. MoCallum. — You estimate that would cost about $30 per mile '.'' Mr. Omver. — It ought not to cost that much, but of course it would always depend upon how it was managed. Hon. Sir Joh.\ Carmno. — It would cost more than that in heavy timber would it not ? Mr. Olivek. — Yes, it probably would. On some of it there is no timber at all, there is a great deal of it that is lightly timt)erod, and some is hoavil}' limbered. Hon. Sir John Cari-ino. — Y'ou would put scows on the rivei-s ? Mr-. Oliver. — The governmenl is putting' ferries on the Peace River. The principal river beyond this is the Liard, and some provision should bo made for crossing it. Cuttle would have to swim across that if there were no scows. That is u point that I wish to maUe clear to the commiltee ; I have bcien asking for- improvements on this road and 1 would like to show that I huvo not been asking for nnrasonable expenditures. A very little expenditure would give a good business result. If we get the timber cut out we can drive our cattle through, and we can swim the river's if we have no ferries. Not only can wo drive tho cattle through, but, it the committee would pardon mc for- a minute, I may say the prospector- could get through with pack ponies, and 1 should like to say how valuable that would bo. Hon. Mr-. Macdonald (B.C.) — Do you propose to put ferries on that route ? Mr-. Omver. — Wo would like very much to have ferries but we could do without them. As I siiy, if we do not have ferries we can swim the' livers, but we canno'. gel thi'ough hundreds of miles profitably or satisfactorily whci-o there is timber. It could be done, but would not pay. Thei'o have come to Edmonton alr-eady i matter of, I suppose, from tour to Hve hundred m Liard to the Polly and down the I'elly to iho sou, or to Dawson Oity at all events, HO that oiico tlioy reach tho Liard Rivor at a point markod llalUolt on the mu|», tlioy iiro ill tho gold licuiinu,' lorrilory .'Mid iho jirosjiocts of hiiiking i)aying milling aro just as tfind tlioro and from thoro on, as anyvviioro; so that instead of having to tiavol l,()()i» milos to roach a jirohahly gold country on the Polloy llivcr thi-y ran naih it nn t'lo Liaid River at a distanco of seven hundred miles from i'Mnionton aiui liave a clianei! — n'lt only a clianco, hut a certainty, ol having a gold hoaring coiiiitry all the way lliroiigh. Thai is hoyond question. That is the roasoii why these people aro taking lliis I'oiite and why I impress on tlio coinmitice that there shonid lie even a miniMiiini »!Xpondiliiro in opening up a trail for tho purpose of asf-isliiig these prospectors. Hon. Mr. iiOiHiiiEEi). — ("an yoii give us .in idea of what yon consider a minimum expenditiiie, Mr. ULtVKii. — Kor seven lumdrod and torty miles an ex])onditiii'e of %'M) a milo would lie ample. Hon. .Ml. ()(ili,viK.— That would he les^ than 825,0t)l) altogetlusr ? Mr. Ul.lVKii. — It would he ample to ent out ;; trail, ('ertaiidy, as one honorable gentleman has suirgestcd it would be bettor to have a wagon road. iloii. Mr. .Mcl-AMitiM. — But, yon would be salislied with a jiaik trail lirHt? .\'r. OlilVKtt. — It is not a (iiiestion of satiistying ino ; it is for the representatives of the country to use their own Judgnient as to what will give the largest amount of trade to the eountry for the smallest possii»le expenditure. The {!ii.\iUMAN. — That is scnind ecoiutmy. lion. Mr. Hki.i.ehosk. — Do you think lliat labourers could he got to cut that timber and clear il Ironi the trail for one dollar V Mf, Oliver. — No. Hon. Ml. Uellehose. — There ar(> twenty acres in a milo. Mr. Olivkii. — Not ihe way 1 have been slating it. I stated it one way and you are taking il another. The a<'re 1 mention is a -([iiare ;iere, that is sovonty yards square. 1 am sjieaking of an acre seventy yards long and six feet wide. Hon. Mr. Beli-ehose. — What would he the cost of that ? .Ml'. Oliver. — Perhaps a dollar would not ho sufficient for that. Of course, these other gentlemen can give you bolter information on that snlijecL than 1 can. Certainly the timber there is nolliing to compare with the timber hero in the way of cutting it. [t is more like what we call second growth here. Hon. Mr. Peri-ey. — In cutting a trail you do not remove every stump? "T^. _Mr. Oliver. — No, and that is the ditference between making a pack trail and making a wagon road. Ow a wagon road yon have not only to cut tho timbor, but you have to remove the stumps and improve tho bases of tho road whoro as on a pack trail if you cut the stumps pretty well towards the ground it will do. '" Hon. Sir John Caiillnu. — It authority was given now to make the trail, how long do yon think, it would take lo o[)on up a pack trail from Peace River to that point on the l^elloy liivor that you have spoken of? i, -i: Mr. Oliver. — 1 have no hesitation in .-aying tliat if properly handled it could be down inside of throe months. Hon. Sir JoiiN Oarlino. — inside of six months anyway? Mr. Oi.iVEK. — There would be no difficulty in doing it inside of three months — that is making such a trail as I have been sjieaking of. Hon. Mr. LouciiiEED. — What is tho cost of the trail that is being built by the Government of the North-west Territories ? Mr. Olivkb. —There is one hundred and fifteen miles altogether, and it is costing about three thousand dollars. That is through heavy timber all the way, and it 'is cutout, I think, twenty feet wide. Hon. Sir John Carling. — That is for a wagon road ? Mr. Oliver. — Yes. Of course as you get further north the cost of|8upplie8 would be very much greater and the difiBculty of management and so on, J so that you would have to take these things into consideration. Hon. Mr, Perley. — But that is a wagon road ? 5—3 34 ROUTES UO THE YUKOX I Mr. Oliver. — Ych. Hon. Mr. Peri.ey. — Ami tliin in (itily ii piuU tniil ? Mr. Omvkr. — OlcouTHo, a puc'lv trail, Mix (>!• oij^lil fi'Ot wido would bo out (»ut for Olio half. lion. Mr. rjoiKiiiKKD. — It wMMiM l)o ahoiit S'Jtl a milo. Mr. OijvKii. — I am ;L;ivini( tlio outMiilo ti:curos, about which I think thoro is no (juoHtion. Hon. Sir .I^Hn Caumno. — That ii $'M) a milo. Mr, Oi.iVBii. — VoM, itiid it' parlianuMit hIioiiM tnw (it to appropriuto 8^50 a mile, it would I)') alway-* advantagooiw to |)ut it (ta -ilio ln-t tor tho road tho mori^ udvantago it would ho. Hon. Mr. 'Maodonald (IM'M.) — That would inako a total o( "40 milo8? Mr. t)l,IVKIt. — Vi'H. Hon. Mr. LoioiiEKit. — Are tho dilfioultios to his tMicoiintored continuous? Mr. Oi.iVKR. — It is a tiinhoi'od country, hut it in not liniliorcil in tho h . itiat Ontario is timliorcd. It is callod thmo a timlx^rod country. Thoro iu .o or lesH timlicr all llm way. Dr. Dawson and Mr. M. Oonncll can i^ivo _, .• much hotter inforinalion and Mr. MacLoo I couLl also i^ivc you iiit'ormalion. Those ifontlemin have hoen throiiirli and can jj;ivo you inurh heller inforin.ation on it than I can. In raf^ar 1 to a wai^on rond and stretches ot navij.;afion from I'eaco River throui^h to the I'tdiy. it would of coursti ho very desirable to have a practii'ablo freit;hl route lliroucli there if wo could ^ct it. From tho point at which ihe North-west ( rovern- mont route reaches tho I'eaco Kiver there is a navii,'ahle si retch of tho Poaco liivor, which ini^^ht bo used on this route of 125 miles, and is of excellent .steamboat navi- i^atioii, or any otiiei' kind of navigation, up to Kort St. John. If you wore trans- portini^ ihereyou could jirobably tiansjxjrt more i heaply over that stretch by boat than you could liy wa^on. Then tronv that point across to the Nelson Branch of tho Liard is about iL^fl or VM miles, or we will say 150 milo- from Foi't St. John over to the Forks of tho Nolson. It you wanted to make a tVeii^ht route throuifh there, that would have to be made a wai^on road ; so put that down as wai^on road that would have to bo constructed; ]")() miles from the forks ot' th(( Nelson Mr. McC/'oniudI reports that it is navij^able down to tho Liard and ui) the Ijiard to the (iiand Canon. Tlien Mr. McConnoll reports that from Hell (xato to tho head of the Devils' Portaf^o, that would have to bo a wa:i;on road. Hon. Mr. Macuonalo (B.C.'.). — That would be the steamer route? Mr. Oi.ivEii. — It would bo practicable for winter. The pa(d< trail part of it woulil be practicable for winter and summei'. Hon. .Mr. Ma( oonald (B.C.). — Any difflciilty in keepini? it open? Mr. Oi.iVEii. — No, that is another point I wanted to brinj,' out later on in rei^ard to the pack route. You would have thirty-tivo icdesfrom Hell^ate to tho head of the Devil's Portaj^'e, then forty miles of goo't iiaviua.ion on the Liard across tho Kocky Mopintains. Tlien there is a suecossi()n of three rapids within tifleen miles so that awaiion road over that piece would ^iveyoc ;,a,' trjition to the Francis Jiako, and then titty miles or eiffhty miles to the Houle Cauu;.. That would bo ITjI) milos, thirty-five miles, lifleen miles and ei;:.chty miles, makini^in all 280 mihs. That amount of waj^oii road would <^ive you summer freir\ I win. In • thr()iiii;h to Voi^lil roiilo vortt < iovorn- I'oiice llivor, unb')ut iiiivi- II were tmus- vich by bnat on Branch of «\)rt St. .lohii •onto through L \viii;;on i-oml ,,, Nelson Mr. Liiird to ibo ) heiul of the lil piirt of it V on in re,i<;ard , iho hcftd of uHslhoKocl^y niilos so thai l.iike, ami then [les, tbirty-tiv*' V)nnt of wagon fow, as to the .(I out by usinu' |cheaply !is it |l.) Edmonton; li-esont cost ot liaid tifty cents In saying thsit Kdmonton to half of that, [t is across tht' Ip to the hea'l [ivo up stream rgosted wagon ROUTKS TO THE YUKON. U amphibioiiH route would not l>o able to compote with the railway away from tho eoast, nor perhaps with direct steamboat navigation around by tho mouth of tho Yulton to the Dawson ('ity, it would always be able to compolo to a ])oint at tho head of the I'cdly on account of tju) up Htroam navig.itioti on tho F'elly eoming from thesct other diredioiis ;md I'oi' that iniorior part of tho eountiy is to bo opened up — and it is eortairdy desirable that it should lit — it can bo oponod up, I maintain, by such a pioposilion as this, bettor than any other. lion. \|r. ()(Hi.viK. — Until a railway is built ? Mr. Oi VKii. — Ves, well, I would not snirirosi tho building of a railva}' at the present lime, until the resources of the country are moi'o thoroiighly demonsLratod, I do not wish to see tho country run into expense uniil it lias jiroved necessary. Hon. Mr. Macoon.xmi (H.^'.) — ilow many ilays would it lake to make that distance by wagon road or pack trail '(* Mr. Olivkr. — A jiack trail should make it in throe months. Of course, I am giving tho full limit. Hon. Sir .Iohn Caumnq. — That is tho 1,000 miles? Mr. Oliver. — Ves, for the l.OliO miles. Hon. Mr. PoWK.ii. — Vou spoak as though tho I'olly Uivor was the objective point. Mr. Olivkr. — Yes, that is tho objective ])oint of the parties starling from Kdtnonloii. Hon. Mr. I'owkr. — Hut i'. is not the objective jioinl of the people who are influenced by the Klondike i)oom. They are going to DaWson (Jity. Mr. Omvkb. — 1 am merely speaking of tlio^o i^oing from Edmonton, I am |)ointing out that several hundred pco])le arc inlluoncod by those ideas to go from Kdmonton, and whether their ideas aro good or bad, it is certainly ])rotitable tons that Iho)- should hold that in view. Hon, .Mr. Powku. — Going back a little distance in your ovid(M>co you spoke of going u|) to .Slave Lake. I think you said there were two routes 'You might go up to Slave Lake and then up b\' ihe Mackenzie and Peace River, across diagonally from Kdmonton to a point on the Peace River? Mr. Oliver. — Yes. Hon. Mr. i'owEU. — Is. that above or below Dunvuj^run ? Mr. Oliver. — It is fifty miles below. Hon. Mr. Power. — What sort of country is it between Edmonton and Slave Lake ? \ Mr. Oliver. — T mentioned that to the committee. Hon. Mr. Power. — I only ask that one question. I do not want any oxtonsivo answer. What sort of country is it generally ? Mr. Oliver. — For tho tirst sixty miles it is slightly undulating ])rairio coun- Irv and settled. From Pembina to the Athabasca it is considerably more rolling and well timbered. Then from Athabasca to tho Slave Lake you cross the Doer Mountains, which is a broken country at a considerable elevation, and the soil is piincipally light and sandy and the country is prett}' heavily timi.ered with po|)lar, spruce, jack pine and tamarack, and tho road is some times ditftcult. That is tho part the Ntirth-west Government is cutting out now. Then when you reach the basin of Slave Lake you got again into fertile country with an immense growth of grass, and from Slave Lake over to tho Peace liiver the country is also fertile, and although jiiancipally timbered, has some prairie on it. Hon. Mr. Power. — Is it level ? Mr. Oliver. — Yes, but it is slightly undulating. Tho Peace Eiver itself is in a very deep valley; you drop down 8U0 foot into the Peace River. Hon. Mr. Power. — How does the country from Fdmonton to this river com- pare wth this country between Edmonton and Calgaiy? Mr. Oliver. — It is a very different country in the matter of timber. In the -district between Edmonton and Calgary when you are near Calgary there is no ^imbor and it gradually increases as you come to Edmonton and as you go north-west of Edmonton the timber is still more increased, so that the country is practically a ir you might go T 36 nOUTE.0 miles ? Mr. BosTocic. — It is T')i) miles to t^>uesnelle and about 2(!0 to Barkervillo. Fol- lowing on from Quesnollo there is a trail throui.h, it crosses the Fraser Elver at Quesnelle and comes across and strikes Fori Fraser and then follows along to Hazleioii. Hon. Mr. Macdonai.o (B.C.) — There is a good deal of steamboat navigation whore you are pointing out? Mr. BosTociv. — Not if you follow this ti ail. Tho trail runs from Fort F^'aser and on to Hazlelon, but you can go from Quesnelle, follow up the Fraser Kivor. apd then strike across and come up the Stuart River to the Stuart Lake, and there was a suivey made b}' some of tho offlcers of tho l)o|)artmorit of Piiblie Works this last summer for tho pui'poso of seeing what obstructions there were in this route between (Quesnelle and Stuart Lake tor the purpose of openini; il, up. Thi re was at one time, J believe, a steamer that, ran iij) from (Juc^iicllo to Fort (reorge. but nving to tho mining oNcitement up there failing I'tf again, it was not coniinuod. The trail as \ say runs fr(jm Qtiesnello to lIa^;ii'ion, and then j'ou /oiii,w up the Skeemi liivor and strike what i-^ maiked as the old l/ail todlenori;. That is practically 'he 'dd Tele- graph Trail wbudi was cut out at tho time they Wi lo putting in the leleg'raph line. The distance I roni <.,)u('snelle to llazleton is ;{27 miles, and from Ha/.lelon t.> Tele- graph Creek is 240 miles. Tho Cha.rjian. — Hazleton is on the Skeena? vSP Mr. BosTocK. — Y'es. I think Hazleton is rather above tho point ot navigation on tho Skeoi'.a, but n^t voiy far. Moil. Mr. Macixinai.I) (B.C.). — Mow many miles is il from Ashcroft to Dawson ? Mr. B( 'TOOK. — I do not know the distence. The distance from Quesnollo to nazloto" ■- 327 miles and Hazleton to Telegraph Creek 240 and Telegraph Creidc lo Teslin i....^ti is 13;") milo>, making702 miles t'lom Quesnelle, but there is tho distance from Teslin Lake Lo l);iw>on which I have not got. Hon. Mr. Macdonald, (B.C.) — Six hundred and eighty miles, I believe and 150 miles Telegraph Creek to Teslin. That woukl n'ttko about 1,400 miles to Dawson '■^- ]\Ir. BosTocMv. — Yes,it would bo somewheres about that; 1 may sayat tho present lime there are quite a number of prospectors going in this way, starling either from Asherofl o*- Kamioops. Tho difference between the two routes from Kamleops or Ash- croft is that, starting from Kamioops you can use the nort.i Thompson Rivei, a distance of about fifty miles, and ihen strike across a place called Little Fork to a place called i 1 38 ROUrES TO THE YUKON. Bridge Crook, and you Htrike the same wagon road again. Theni was a deputation Bont irom the jteoploot Kiiinloi)|).s down to iho Provincial Government the early part of'thirt year asking them to open up that I'oad between North Thompson River and Bridge Creek, as there is a good piece of country through iher'e, which would make it bettor for the packers and men going in, to get hay and grain, of course, when they got away from the railway tliere they often find it difficult to get grain for their hoise.- and as a rule they like to get apiece of couiitiy where they can turn their horr^es out at night. Now, owing to this wagon road from Ashcroft having been opened a number of years, nearly .nil the available land — that is, available for settle- ment at ail — has been taken up, and prospectors going through there either have to take their own grain and hay with them, or else make some arrangement with the settlor to ])astiiro their horses, and of couise tliat adds to the expense, and if they can come in anotiier way and >ave expenhc, they would ratherdoso. That isa matter connected with the Provincial Government. The advantage of opening up this piece of country is that iliore is a Uiining developmen' going on. There has [)eea mining on theSkeenuand there has been a g"od deal of ])ro>pecting all throu,^h this part of the country and from reports received it seems that there is a gooil mining countr}' in thi" part of it, which would certainly be benefited b}' the ojx'ning up even of a trail to Ilu/Jeton and on this way to Glenora. The CliAiUMAN. — Where ilo you live? .Mr. BosTocK. — 1 live not far from Kamloops, some (imcs. The Cu.vui.nAN. — Then the mines ;iro north of Quesnelle nearly? Mr. BosToc'K'. — The big mines :it the ])resent time, that big liydraulic mine at the Quesnelle forks — Mr. Ilobson is at present the manager of it — tiiat is off the Cariboo, and the mines at Barktiville ai 'i all those hydraulic mines are on t'.iis side ot the Cariboo road. lloii. .Mr. Machonalu (B.C.) — Where did the cattle y.'o in from ? Mr, BnsTocK, — Tluy go from Chilcotin, just on the other side, and drive through on the old trail. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — And I believe they were in good condition when they got there and sold well ? Mr. BosTocK. — Yes, [ believe so. This old trail was used at tho time of the Cassiar excitement in 1875-7(1. There are men living around Ashorofi now, who drove them over this trail to Glenora and to Peace Eiver. Hon. Mr. Cox.— How long would it take to drive cattle through there? Mr. BosTonc. — Well, with tho condition of the trail at tho present time, I suppose it would take them about two months to do it— that is, to keep them fat. Of course, the gieater part of this country is a fairly open country with a certain amount of timber on it. very much the same as it is around Kamloops, and that part of British Columbia, and there is a good deal of bunch grass all through this way. Hon. Mr. Power. — Where is the Omenica ? Mr. BosTOCK. — It is over to the east. Hon. Mr. Power.— Is there any groat difficulty in getting from tho place where you propose to have yoiir road to the Omenica country? Mr. BosTOCK. — No, they go in from there tiovv with pack horses. Hon. Mr. Power. — Does not tho Parhnip River come into the Omenica River? Mr. BosTocK.— It is in the Omenica country and runs into the Frasor. Hon. Mr. Power.— Is not tho Parsnij) River really tho main branch of the Peace River ? Mr. BosTocK.— Yes, I think it is but I would not be quite sure about that. Hon. Mr. Power.—So that if you follow up that Peace River you can get into the neighbourhood where you propose to put your road without any diCiculty. There are no mountains. Mr. BosTocK.- Yes, the Peace River makes a bond and comes down towards the F. aser. i the tho Y Glen Hon. Mr. Power.— It gets through the Rockies without air. hi^jh past Mr. BosTocK. — Yes, there is no very high pass there. 7 *ni.% Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)- Tho Kill mat Harbour or whore? Mr. BosTdCK. — That is a point I do not know very much about? Tlie (^nAiRMAN. — It is south of the Skep".a. Hon. Mr. Macdonalii (B.C.) — That could join a road from Ashcrof t ? Mr. BosTocic. — Yes, but of course the great difficulty of gettin<)j in this way as Mr, Oliver doscriljed just nf)vv, is that those jirospeftor; and men who .irc anxious to go into the country ai as small an ox))en80 as possible, can take their own pack animals, ami just go slowl}- along, as it suits thom, and llicy stand a very good chance on ai-y of these small rivor.s of boii;^ able to wash a certain amount of gold which would probably pay their oxponseH. Nearly every stream in that upper part of British Columbia carries more or loss gold so thtt a man can got something out of it. lion. .Ml-. M(;Callum. — If it carries more gold they will stop right there, I suppose ? Mr. BosTocK. — Yes, if it is good enough they will slay, The Chair.m. n. — The Cassiar region and the Deaso Rivei" region are synonymous. Mr. JJo,STooK. — Yes, they aie all there, and the Omenic.i countiy is to the south. You SCO practically tiiis mineral belt runs right u]i. Hon. .Mr Macuonald (B.C.) — From liossland. Mr. BosTocK. — Vcs, an quite* tea-'ible, Th;^ t/'HAiRMA.N. — IIow lar apart aio Ashcroft and Kamloops? Mr. Bot'TOCK. — About eighteen miles. r»on, Mr, Power. — I think Mr. Iloid, who gave evidence before our committee tho 'ibf';' iay, said it woidd be quite practicable to construct a line of railway from Y 'lo hc'i'' Pass into this region between tho two ranges of mountains and on to Glenn ', (,; Telegraph Creek, Do you know whether that is the case or not? Mr. 'V)8'r' OK. — There was a company in British Columbia, called the British Pacitic, tl'..t projected a lino starting from the coast and going across by way of barkcrvi'lc! to the Yollowboad Pass. I do not know whether they carried their Burvey . right through there, but I think the old Canadian Pacific Railway surveys show that route. Hon. Mr. Power. — But Mr, Eeid said he thought there was no difficulty in getting a very good line up north from the Fraser Kiver ? Mr. B08TOCIC. — You mean to follow the Fraser? Hon. Mr. Power, — Yes, Mr. B08T0CK. — Yes, and then you strike the Parsnip, of course. Ipa 4t? 40 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. ■1 Mr. Makcus Smith appeared before the Committee and was examined as folio wd : — The Chairman. — You were in the employ of the Canadian Government as an engineer, Mr. Smith? Mr. Smith. — Yes, 1 was twenty-five yearn Bervini; under the Canadian Govern- ment as an engineer. I waw four yearn on the Intercolonial. The Chairman. — You conducted the nurveys. ^Ir. Smith. — Up until the Intercolonial was nearly completed in the spring of 1S72, and the surveys were commenced then of the Canadian Pacific Railway and they transferred me before tlio work waf finished, made mo deputy chief engineer for the surveys, and I was sent out to liritish Columbia to take charge of the surveys in ^^riti^ll Columhi:\ from the Rocky Mountains to the Pacific coast. I was on that fnr four years, fwd Mr. Fleming, chief engineer, was sent to Kngiand for some purpose and J \mc ) ♦iko his place :ih acting chief engineer, and I continued that for two years nnd a i.si Tlie CiiAiiiMAN. — Wha' ,. wa< that? Mr. Smith. — From 1876''lo Uie end of 187S I hud charge of the whole woik. The Chairman. — And what line of survey diii you follow ;ind what could you tell us that would assist us in our objcci, which is to coimect our railwuj' system with f-ome route thiit will take us into the Yukon district? Ml'. S.Mnn. — Yes, f can give that. Of course, a great number of miles were explored and surveyed some hundred thousand miles, and we actually ti-ailed and levelled something like 40,()t)() miles. You will understand J could not see the whole ibiiiL;- luit I .-aw a ii;reat de:d of it. I was in ihe field all the time and I was eDiislanlly with my staff .md the reports ]>nlilished were condensed I'cports, but 1 have received hundivds of letters and 1 understan'i the couiuiy just as well as if 1 had SI en it, because we knew the description- so well. lion. ^^r. Power. — 1 would suggesi that we start from Kdmontf)n and consider the way of glutting up from I'jduinuton and not deal with territory wiiich wdl not be traversed by anyof the proposed I'outes. If there was a survey up the Peace Biver that woulil be valuable information. Mr. S.MITH. — 1 simply mention the surveys because part of the time 1 was on that very subject. In the year 1S77 I was making a survey for th(> northern terminus of the railway. Mr. Alexandei' Mackenzie was Premier, and he had been in S(!otland and he was informed that it was received very favourably in Gieat Britain, the infor- mation that a lino coidd bo constructed there. We made the surveys in 1877 from Fori Simpson riizht tlii'oiiiih by the Pine Uiver Pass, and thiough the Peace Kiver and in tact to Kdmonton, and from thoho surveys I jirojected a lino whicn appeared to me to be exceedingly favourable — more favourable than any wo had t-een and th.it was ])ubli^hed with my leport of 1S78 and here is the map. Hon. .Mr. Power. — That would be in the lailway report of what vear? 187S or i87'.t Mr. Smith. — The surveys of 1877 vvero reported in 1878, Wo came homo in tho winter time, and the reports weic always made the following year in the spring. lb)n. Mr. Power. — Was this rejiort o f^'oui's ever published? Mr. Smith — The rcnori was published, hut the map wan not ])ubiished. Mr. Fk>.ming came liomo in the end of 1878 and he thought that Peace River Pass was a bettor one than the one I had selected and no action was taken on it, and tho matter was reserved, lie also found fault with some colouring I had put on the map, signi- ficant of the general character of tho soil, which I thought was important, because in all my surveys 1 always took notice of the charact' r of the country. Hon. -Mr. Power. — is this map which you are now submitting to tl a copy of that map ? Mr. Smith. — Yes. Hon. Mr. Power. — This is a copy of a map which accompanied your report? the committee th( ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 41 saminod as ment as an lian Govern- lie spring of lailway and ief eni^ineer largo of the •oast. I waH l<]iiglainl for I oontiniiod i)lo woi'k. it could you Iwaj' tnyHlem >f miles were ually ti-ailod :)uld not see Iho lime and used I'eports, list as well aH and consider lich wdl not Peace River was on that toi-niinus of ill Scotland liii, the infor- 11 1877 from the I'eace a lino wliic\i we had ^een year? IS7S ime home in in the spring. iiished. -Mr. or Pass was a nd the matter w map, Higni- tant, because ho committee )ur report ? Mr. Smith. — Yes, this was printed and published. Hon. Mr. I^owek. — 1 thought you said it was not published. Mr. Smith. — It was issued. It was issued afterwards. The reason it was not issued, Mr. Fleming thought a better line could be got. Then in the following year there wore iour large parties sent out to examine the worlc I had reported upon and to examine the Peace Iliver, and they all reported favourably to the Pine River instead of the Peace. Hon. Mr. Power. — Their reports will be found in the reports for 1879. Mr. Smith. — In the reporls of 1880. In 1879 several parties wore sent out. One was Mr. Charles lloretzlccy, an explorer. Ho was not an engineer. The Chaiuman. — Where is he now ? Mr. Smith. — He has been em|)loyod by the Provincial Government. The last time I saw him some years ago he was employed by them. There was Mr. H. J. Cambie, and Mr. Joseph Hunter and Henry MacLeod. Those wore all my assistants — had been my assistants — and along with those was Dr. Dawson of the Geological Survey and there was a clergyman, the Rev. D. M. Gordon ; he made a very good report. He made reports of the surveys of 1879, which appear in the published report of isSO. The Chaikman. — What route ? Mr. Smith. — They examined both Pine River route and Peace River from .Fort Simpson, and they concluded that the Pine River was ihi; best. The CiiAiHMAN. — (Jan you describe how you would reach Pino River Pass from Edmonton ? Mr. S.MiTH. — You can first of all take up the descii])tion from Kdnionton to the Peace IJiver. That would form part of it ; when you get down to the west end of Lesser Slave Lake, the line would go avva\' from iheie to the Pine River Pass. And from the west end it would cross the Smoky River a little below the mouth of the little Smoky River to the north of the Simonetto River and then it strikes the Pine Rivi'i' for ^ome consiilei.ablo number of miK's aiul sonic forty miles south, of the I'oace River. The Chairman. — Then you keep south of the Peace River all the way through there ? Mr. Smith. — Yes, and we came out at Fort Mai-leod on the west side of the Rocky I\Iouiilains and the value of that jiass was this; it was said to be 2,400 feet and J)r. l)a\\M)n went ovei' it in 1879 and he made the ]1as^ 2,700 feet above the level of the sea. The Yellow Head Pass is 1,00(1 feet more then that. The Chairman. — What is the Kicking Horse Pass ? ^Ir. Smith. — That is live thousand and some feet. Hon. .Mr. Power.— What about the Peace River Pass? Mr. Smith. — It is about 2,200 feot. There is where Mr. Fleming was misled in his judgment; it was because the Peace River Pass was a lower pas^ tliiit ho pre- ferred it to the Pine River but when he got westward of the Peace River Pass there •was no way lo get into the Skecna except over a much higher pass, a jiash about 4,(HJ0 feet high. After we got through the Pine River P.ass and through the main range of the nmuntains and coming lo the coast range by the Mahine Lake the height is only 2,200 feet whereas on the northern line by the Peace River it is H,800. The Chairman. — From l^ino River Fa.'-s through the Babine Ri.-or you strike the head waters (d Skeena, Mr, Smith. — We strike the Skeona at a point that would he favourable for con- necting with the projected line lo Tesliii Lake. I will show you on the map. You Bee that blue line (pointing to the maj)) that is the line that I located by the Pino Eiver Pass ; here is Lesser Slave Lake; hoi<^ is Kdnionton up hoie; it strike the Athabascra landing al)Out ninetj'-six miles north of Edmonton; then it goes down to the Lesser Slave Lake and follows the south shore of that, and from thence west- Ward crossing the Smoky River about I think sixty miles from the Peace. The Chairman. — South of the Peace. Mr. S.MITH. — Yes. Then it goes along and crosses several rivers till it strikes the 1 ine River and that Pine Rivor goes down to the Peace River very near to old Fort 42 ROU'JES TO THE YUKON. 'if' (■-■ ■■ f J' Si. John on the Poaco River, near Hudson's Hope, that is aL the foot of the caftot), there is a jj;reui canon lliero. The Peace Kivor passing through the Rocky Moun- tains forms a caiion about twenty-Hve miles in length ; that is not navigable, at least they always go around it anyway; — and this is at the foot of that where the Pine River cotnos in. Hero is the pass (pointing to ihe map) you can see where the benil is. It makes even a worse l)en(i than that. Hon. Mr. Power. — You say the niaxiinutn iioight is ,■2,700 feet. Mr. Smith. — Yes, the summit — I tnav say that in going across from the Lesser Slave Lake in crossing the Smoky River you cro.ss what is called the Grande Prairie a voiy lino country, all tiie way un to Pino River in fact, — a wonderful country. There are some forty miles liy thirty miles in the Grande Prairie, all good soil, Hon. Mr. Cox, — How far is that pointyou were s|)eaking of a moment ago from the present line of the ('anadian Pacific Railway say from Asheroft? Mr. S.Mrrii. — I iiave not anything with me to measure the distance. Hon. .Mr. Power. — It is four or five hundred miles. Mr. Smith, — The Parsnip River is the south bianeh of the Peace River in fact it might, almost • o called the main branch of the Peace Rivei'. The Chairman. — It is navigable. Mr. Smith. — Yes for lai'go boiUs. This goes into what is called the Omcnica country there; as soon as you get to the Parsni|> River this is the Omenica country and the line runs right along sido of it. The Chauimax. — It taps the head waters of the Skeena? Mr. Smith. — Yes, at a point, Fort Sturgeon. None of the maps exactly agree as to that, but that is the point, and you will see where it is marked old trail there connecting with the Glenora and you will see also connecting in onodii'ect line with the Yukon, The Chairman. — That point there and a corrcwjionding ])oint on this side is the elbow (m the Liaid? ^Ir. .SjuTH. — Yes. The Chairman. — Between the Liard and the Stikine River comes Dease Lake and the Cassiar region ? Mr. Smith. — just so. Hon. Mr. Power. — There is no difficulty as far m you know in getting a line north here to Glenora ? Mr. Smith. — I only know that from original reports and from conversation. Hon. .Mr. Power. — Hid you go down to the ocean there down the Skeena River ? Mr. Smith. — Yes, we made a survey. Hon. Mr, Power. — I have been told recently that some officer who has been up there bought that Douglas Inlet was about the farthest point north at which connec- tion would be made with the shore, but the Skeena River is north of Douglas Inlet, and you saj- you found a good location for a line running down the Skeena? Mr. Smith. — Ii is ])retty heavy work on the Skeena, the Skeoini is a bad river for navigation; there are shallows in it and then there is the ice coming down and 80 on. Hon. Mr. Power.— Is there a harbour at the mouth of the Skeena? Mr. Smith.— No ; here is Port Rssinglon; but going twelve or fifteen miles furtiier we go to Fort Simpson ; wo have to cross the peninsula between Fort Simp- son and the Skeena. Hon. Mr. Power. — Is it a good country ? Mr. Smith.— It is somewhat heavy wcJrk on the Skeena ; I have examined the whole of all of these rivers coming down and they are all heavy. Hon. Mr. Power. — Have you examined Douglas Inlot? Mr. Smith.— Yes, here (poincing to the map) is tne head of Douglas Inlet. You will find in the report of 1877 that I described that. 1 examined all these Inlets. I examined all these rivers right from the Skeena up to Fort Simpson. Hon. Mr. Power.— What do you think of the Douglas Inlet? hOUTES TO THE YUKON. 48 f the cnnoi), stocky Moiin- luvigable, at it where tlie [in see where m the Lesser 1 the (xruiide -a wonderful l^rairie, all ent ago from iver ill fact it tlio Omcnica 3nica country ictly agree as Id trail there i-ect line with his Bide is the Dease Lake ijetting a line versation. Ikecna Kiver ? has been up which connec- Dougias Inlet, eena ? is a bad river ling down and ? • fifteen miles len Fort Simp- examined the Douglas Inlet. .11 these Inlets. Mr. Smith.— There is a find inland passage for small ships there; -roin-r ri ^ Hon. Mr. Poweb.— Cannot you urot in from the open nea ? Mr. 8MITH.— Large ocean-going vessels would not likely go l hero; Fort Simp- son IS a good general port; in fact Fort Simpson is an ocean port, the best port north ot San J^rancisco; hut Douglas would ho a very convenient port. I went up theGronvi locdian.Kd and when 1 camo h.ick ihe water appeared to he rath.-r.^lml- /Vo-i . "".^ '"' ' soundings but 1 made a note which was printed in my report ot 18,7. hat theivis a doprossion; there are very high mountains there that make that heiul ot the Skeena and 1 saw a doprc^snion there, leading through the Skeena and that is what they call the Knimat; and from there ihoro is uiH.ther low depres- sion that would strike the Nass Kivor, and go up there and I think the most northern port or having a Canadian line would be the Nass liiver. Of course what thev call th. Alice Arm is up the same channel. ^ Hon. Mr. Power.— That is the sh )rlest way to get in from Victoria? Mr. Smith.— From Victoi'ia there could not be a better one ; it is a wonderfully direct line from Victoria instead of going to Portland. Hon. Mr. Power.- I have been told with respect to Observatory Inlet and Alice Arm that you cannot get in because the land was so high there, that it would be almost impracticable. .^lr. Smith —The farthest we wont down the Nass Piver— and I know vou can get a line up that river; 1 would not advise any part of the river to bo navigated Hon. Mr'. PowKK.— I do not think the harbour is good at the mouth Mr. Smith.- It is a small harbour, but, of course, the true harbour would be i^ort :^impson. \ou could put almost the navies of the world in it. The Chairman.— AVe will have to rise now and some other day we will be triad to hear Mi'. Smith further. ^ m The Committee then adjourned. 44 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. Ottawa, 2nd May, 1898. Committee met this day. The Honourable Mr. Boulton, Chairman. Dr. George M. Dawson callod and oxamint3d. 1 have hud thiH map coloured to show ron^hly what appear to bo tlio three main I'outes iiorthwaid, foilowini^ the natural coiitornialion of the country, and tindini;- :i common point at Selkirk in the Yukon district. Ot course, there are many Others possible, and this map does not take into consideration the several routes which have boon proposed from the Pacific Coast direct!}'. It is mtenued rathoi- to show f'avoiiral.le routes connoclin<{ with the railway communication already ])rovide'd from, Iviniotiton, or in British ('olumbia from Ashcrott, or other point on the line of the Canadian Pacific Kailway there. The CiiAUiMAN. — Wiiat surveys have you made oil hor for geological or engineer- ing purpose-? Dr. Dawson. — The ]>art of the countiy under consideration that 1 know from personal examination, extends fiom Ivlrnontonup to the I'oaco fiiver, and alon^' various routes tbroUi;h the northern part ot British Columbia. Hon. Mr. Macdonalo (B.C.) — Prom Peace liivtfr to Edmonton, does the route pass tbrouirh a good country ? Dr. Dawson, — It is varied in character — In the north of British Columbia and Yukon country in 1SS7, 1 was in charire ot tiie Yukon expedition, with Messrs, McConnell an 1 McKvoy. of the Geological Survey, as assistants. In that year we explored ] iris of ibi.' country as far north as Fort Selkirk, from whiidi point I returned. In the followinij,- year, Mr. Mc(!onnoll (having ali'cady examined the lower part of the Litir.l River.) followed down the Mackenzie, .ind from Fort Mac- phcrson. crossed to tlm Porcupine, followed that river tlnougli the northern part ot the Yukon country and returned to the coast up the Lewes. IJeports uf ihese Journeys were published l)y the (Geological Survey. Mr. (Jgilvie was aUo attached to that, expedition, and be wintereil, in HST-^''^, as you are aware, n^^ar \\w boundary line (Long. 141°) tor the ))ur])ose of determining that line by observations. The followinir \-ear he crossed by the southern head waters of the Porcupine River to the Mackenzie, meeting Mr, McConu'll in tln^ vicinity of Fori Macpherson, ami then ascending t lie M.'ickenzie Iliver. His report is published in the iieport of the De- partment of the Intei'ior tor 1S88. Pei'haps the simplest way of giving what facts 1 can on routes, will bo to begin with tint stai'ling from Edmonton, marked niimb(>r one on the map. This route has been chiefly referred to in the newspapers as the " Ivlnionton route," and i- advocateii by many peojile there. It is no doubl an extremely direct route if you taice Selkirk as a common point, as we may do, beeau-e Selkirk is the natural point at which these dilferont routes converge, no matter how much further north they may be intended to go. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— What is the distance from Edmonton to Selkirk by that route ? Dr. Dawson. — It is about 1,300 miles from Edmonton to Selkirk. Hon. Sir .loiiN Caiilinu. — And how far from Selkirk to Dawson City? Dr. Dawson.— It is about 175 by the river. The measurement- from Edmonton to Selkirk are made in a series of straight lines without allowing for curvature, which would add at least ten per cent to the whole. nOUTES To THE YUKON. 46 ^y, 1898. I bo the throe country, a?i(l iKO, thoi-e are II the several It JH iiitonuod ommnnication crotl, or othor al or engineoi- t 1 know from vol', and alonjj; does the roiuo 1 Columbia and with McHsrt*. In that _yeai' which point I examined the )ra Fori Mac- )ithoni part ot ports of those ,s aJM) attached r tlic boundary rvalions. Tin' npino River to DTson, and then )ort of" the Df- 7\ bo to boii;iii p. This rouU' route," and i^ ute if you tai[< Cai,i,u.m. — What is ilic nature of the country by that route? Dr. Dawson. — Thei'e arc fsevoral routes that mitjht bo fcdlowel in the tirstpart from i'Mmonton. One i^oes from i'Mmonton lo Athabcsca Ijanding, which is about 9(1 miles, then i'ollows the Athabasca River up to the mouth of Lessor Slave River, and that river ui> to Lcssei' Slave Lake, thon<'0 across to the i'cac(? at the month of the Smoky River, to wliat is called I'eacc Kivor I.,andiiig. A more direct route is, however, tlie one that 1 understand has boon already partlj' opened up from Kd- montoii, lunning across by old Fort Assinaboino. on the Athabasca, and going nearly Btraigiil to the same point on the I'eaco River. Besides these two routes, there is a third, tor of course a line drawn straight from Edmonton to a point on the Peace River, near Fort St. John, would be the most direct of all. Leaving out of consideration the route tin Athabasca Landing, which although it follows the rivoi's, is the longest, 1 may say something about tiio character of the country along the two last-montioned loutos. l"'rom I'ldnionton to old Fort As.-^iniboinc there is good arable land for tiie most part to wiibin about ten miles of the Athabasca River, when it becomes rather poor and sanr. JlvwsoN. — Yes, there are occasional hwatnps, but no large swampy tracts. The Athabasca valley, at that point where it would be crossed is about 450 feet deep. The river is about 2.')0 yaids wide, and the !ieight ot the river tin re above Boa level is about 2,000 feet, nearly the same with that ot the Saskatchewan at Edmonton. Hon. Mr. PEiir-ET. — Is that the height of the land or the height of the river? Dr. Dawson — The height ot the river. Then from old Fori A^siniboino to the vicinity of Lessor Slave Lake, I do not know very much about the character of the land in detail. I have never followed the exact line of that route, but 1 should judge that not more than one-half of, it is what might be called arable land. There are ridges and intervening swam])y valleys, but nothing high or difficnilt to overcome in building a I'oad or a r:dlway. Hon. Mr. MACDoNALn(B.G.) — Is there a Catholic Mission near Lessor Slave Lake ? Dr. Dawson — I do not know. There is a Hudson's Baj' Company's post there and I believe they have some cattle, but 1 am not informed as to the extent to , which farming is carried on, although good crops are produced. I have never visited the west end of the lake where the post is situated. The b.oight of Lesser Slave Lake above the sea is about 1,81)0 feet. Returning to the route which passes b}- the west end of Lesser Slave Lake, it may bo slated that there is some good land near the lake where the Hudson's Bay post is, but u groat deal of the land around the lake is swamp or muskeg, an(. to tlio eouth it is high and broken. So that in the immediate vicinity of Lesser Slave Lake it is not a very attractive country for settlement, but from Lesser Slave Lake . to the i'eaeo River, the luad, which already exists, runs through a very good stretch of countr}' for the (15 miles of its length. Nearly all the land in fact along the road is what would be called good land, but on both sides, it is more or less swampy, I may here mention in regard to all this country that its swampy character is largely produced by old beaver dams. The beavers have dar.imcd it up in all directions to such an extent that much of it that originally drained froely into streams is nothing but old beaver meadows and these might of course be eventually drained if desired. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — H would not take much to drain it? Dr. Dawson. — Jt could be drained for agricultural purposes without any great diflSculty in most places. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — Is there a road through there? Dr. DaWson. — There is a road traced by the Hudson's Bay Company, 65 miles long, trom Slave Lake to Peace River landing. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — Could you take carts along? Dr. Dawson — Yes, they have been used there for many years. Hon. Sir. John Cabling — Where is the road from Edmonton to Peace River? 46 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. •' 'I ■A i'l I '■■ Dr. Dawson — Tho 05 miles I am now Hpoukint^ of is a partof the roiid, whothor you travel direct to tlio westend of Shivo Lakeor follow up the rivcrw from Atliabanca Landing. Tlio (!iiAUt.M.\N — In tho event of a railroad would it bo desirable to go to a point towards Diinvi'gan instead of tho I'oace Ivivcr Landin;^? Di'. Dawson — Yes, that is what [ was ci>tiiini( to next. Iluvinff reached Peace Eivor Land in, Peace Eiver Landing — 65 miles, total 275 miles. Tho Chairman. — To Peace River Landing? Dr. Dawson. — Then from Peace River Landing there is a good trail north of tho Peace River which is already partly practicable for carts or waggons running to Dunvegan and from Dunvegan to St. John, tho whole distance to St. John being 145 miles. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — Is that at tho crow flies or following the ups and downs ? Dr. Dawson. — It is pretty nearly as the crow flies. The trail is laid out on no regular principle — it follows the country whore it is open and easy. lion. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — These mileages are by following the sinuosities of tho trail? Dv. Dawson. — No, I am giving them nearly in direct distance; you would have to allow at least ten per cent for curveture. The Chairman. — These are made by the natives? Dr. Dawson. — Yes, or by the Hudson's Bay Company. It is about 145 miles in direct distance from Peace River Landing to Port St. .lohn. The Chair.man. — Tha» makes it 420 milos from Himonton to St. John ? Dr. Dawson. — Yes — Now as to tho nature of the country between Peace River Landing and Fort St- John. From the Landing to Fort Dunv '»gan, the trail for tho moht part runs through a prairie country — a ])latoau elevated on the avc^rage about 2,000 feet above the sea, with very rich soil and groves of poplar; a very attractive country. Tho only diawback that may exist, here as elsewhere on the general plateau of tho Peace River district, is the liability to summer frost; but 1 do not think this is greater than it is in the vicinity of Fort Saskatchewan and in other places theroabouts, although more extended meteorological observations are needed to determine this accurately. At any rate, in the valley at Dunvegan, wheat, barley, oats and potatoes are successfully grown. ROUTES TO THK YUKON. 47 011(1, whothor )m Alliivburtca go to u point cached Potico would cross ■i a. rule, tlioro 3 is no pait- nd ascondini^ [)laco is about Athabasca on ho plateau or to rise out of with comi)arii- is about 1,301) lid and full of :ger river, i^ain. — Edmon- to the wo8t ! River at tho 75 miles. lil north of tho )n8 running to Fohn being 145 ng the ups and laid out on no the sinuosities rou would havo ut 145 miles \\\ John ? on Peace Eivor ho trail for tho avorage about very attractive 5n tho general t; but 1 do not in and in other ions are needed nvegan, wheat, Hon. Mr. MoCallum. — They aro not atfoctod more by frost there than in other paits of tho country ? Dr. Dawson. — No; coiniiaring this, for example, with tho Kdtnonlon district. lion Mr. MAfJDoNALi) (li.C.) — Ut courso, drainages would oliviato that ? L)r. Dawson. — Yos, to a groat e.xtent. At Dunvogan, tho river is again flowing in a very deoj) valloy, ho thai any road or railway would naturally l. I'Votu Dunvegan to Fort St. John tho trail in one wliioh I have novor my^olf travollol, but Mr. (Jambie, who oxaininod that louto in oonnoction with the old Canadian I'uoiHo Flailway sur- vey, reports that tho trail koops about 15 miles from tho riviM- for iho reason 1 havo moiitionod and tho distanco is about 1-0 mile-*. Tho country is undulating, varying from 1,'JOI) to 2,400 toot above tho t-oa, witii a range of hills to tho north osliinatod at 1,5011 foot above llio general level. About 5 percent of tho tract passed through is woodod land and tlio rest is opon praii io with good hoii. Hon. Sir .loilN ('Aiii.rNO. — Is it lioavily woodcti lant end of Lesser Slave Lake, then ruiiinui,' south to tho Athabasca River, and back along that river to tho foot hills again. Within those limits is a tract with an area of about 31,000 square miles, of which, as far as we aro able to form an estimate, about 23,000 square miles is good land for eventual occupation for agriculture. One of the most notable tracts of good open land is what is called Grand Prairie south of Dunvegan. Tho CnAiiiMAN. — Was not thatGrand Prairie a portion of land that vvas trans- ferred from IJritish Columbia? Did not thoy make some transfer of that i)art oast of the mountains? Dr. Dawson. — No, Grand Prairie lies to the east of the 120th meridian, which is here the eastern boundary ol British Columbia. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C). — Are the mountains high in that of the Peace River country you are describing now ? Dr. Dawson. — No, they aro a long way furtlioi' west than the part I am speaking of. There is a belt oi foot hills between 20 and 30 miles wide between. 1 am only speaking of the cour.try to the oast of tho foot hills. Hon. Mr. Macdo'nalo (R.C).~What height are the foot hills ? Dr. Dawson. — They rise from low ridges to hills several hundr' t' ..r even several thousand tbet in height. Hon. ^Ir. Macdonald (ii.C). — And all timbered ? Dr. Dawson, — Yos, all timbered except whore tho timber has been burnt off. I was speaking of Grand Prairie. That is probably the largest open area in the Peace River country. It was the homo of tho Peace River buffalo at the time thoy existed there before thoy were killed off — the most northern band of the prairie buffalo. The prairie is about 40 miles long and 20 miles wide in the wide part, with An area of about 230,000 acres of rolling surface and a very fertile soil. Of course in speaking of the fertility of that country one must not forget to remark tliat the fact of its remoteness is against its being immediately utilized, because no matter what crops are grown there it would cost too much to bring them to market, after .satisfying any local demand. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — You could not sell them in tho market ? 84 IIOUTES TO THE YUKON. v\ . \ Dr. Dawsdn. — [( ihor'* witd w rail\v:i\ liicrc il wmilil ntill Ik' so far fn»in W'in- ni|ii\i;, for iiistanco, tliat ilio tivit^lil woiiM jirnbalily lio tnoro lliaii tlio vuluo of the ci'op l>efor'< it ro(i''liclward diroction, it Ih a di«tiiii(^o of at loasi lifiO miioH Irom ihoro to llio Liard Ilivcr, near the mouth of its tiihuiary from ihc Houih. tho NcUon Hivor. IIoii Mr. .Mai'io.vami (i'.('). — You havn .'I'ossed tlic mountains by that limo V J>|-. Daw.son. — No, tho roulo i.s still to tho oawt ol' tho mountains. From thi^ same jioinl, H.iy the mouth of tho i'ino liivor, it is li'J.'t milos lo Kort XoIhod, on tho Nolson Ilivor. D is likely that a road oi- ruilway lino would I'ollow that I'ine i{ivcr valley, hocauso Ih" valleys in all this country belwoen iho I'oaoo and Di.-ii'd are cut vory (loop. I ii'ivc not iravolled tln'out;h that sirotcii of country iuit tjiu information I am i^ivintc yon is that derived from Mr.Oijilvio'H report to tho Dopari- monl of tho Inlorior in 181>1,'. Ilo crossed f.om the Liard to tho Peaco, and ho des cribos \\w valleys as heintf f'oni several hundred to 1,(11)0 feel or mort? in doptii. It would therefore in all prohaluliiy bo noeos.sary to follow tin* l^ino liiver valley, j^iadimll}' risinrj to tho level of tho plateau and keo|)inf; on it until Fort NolHon is roaebod, to avoid tlio.se deep intcr-oclini;' valleys. As far us can bo ascer- tained the pluleai itself is fairly level and prosonts no unsu;il difficulties to raiiway> or I'otuls, It is almost all wooded. At the presont time, unlosw it lias been vor\ recently t:uido, there is really no travelled routo across this region. Tho Didia portage across trom rivers flowin;^ to the I'eaco to rivers flowing to tho Ijiar 1, b it is a long ])ortage and they do not carry much weight across. From Fort Nolsoi, down to the mouth of Nelson River on the Liard it is nearly lOO miles following the flexures ot the river, and this part of the Nelson is re])ortod to l>o navigable for islern 'vlieel sii^amers. The CiiAiKMAN. — The Nelson, you mean ? Dr. iUwsoN. — Yes. And the Liar«l also is undoubtedly iiaviirablo in tho same way, down to Fort Simpson, where it joins the xMackonzie; a fact of groat imjiortance in connecioii with the opening up of the I'outo which 1 am now describing. lion. Sir John Caui-inc}. — You would cross tho Liard going to Fort Selkirk ? l)Y. Dawson. — Yes, that is in travelling by land. The t;mbor between tho Peace and Liard is said lo bo mostly sjiruce. Ogilvio reports, in tho valleys, good lari;r spruce timber :ind large cottonwoods, but on tho higher lands agood deal of scrubby timber, as one would suppose. Hon, Mr. Mc('ai,ltj.m. — Jack pine;, I suppose'.'' Dr. Dawson.- I;'rol)ably. Tho mouth of tho Nelson Ilivor, as near ?.:, v.'c car. toll, allliough this has not been accurately determined, is about 1,000 foot only above tho sea. The land is continually lowering to the northward. Tho Liard River it- self, whore it crosses tho mountains to tho west of tho mouth of the Nelson is an extremely dangerous, rough stream. It falls about 1,(J.')0 feet from tho mouth of th- Deaee liiver, west of the mountains, to Fort Simpson on the Mackouzie, and a largo part of that fall occurs in its passage through the mountains. It is extremely rapid and is full of bad canons and whirlpools. Hon, Mr. Perley. — How wide is it ? Dr. Dawson. — It varies much. In places it is restricted in very narrow canons and in other parts it widens out to half a mile or more. Hon. Mr. MACDONALn (B.C). — A rough country to build through, I suppose ? Dr. Dawson. — I do not think so, because the banks of these cafions are generally not high, and the valley is fairly wide. Mr. McConnell descended this river and surveyed, it and, judging from his map and report, I think a road or railway could ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 49 from Witi- aliio of tlic slio'l, umlor m, or to tlio J the iKitiiral .if ill Itiii^' ;iry tidiii ill'' • tliai limo ? From \\\\> •I Ni'lHon, on ow tliiU Pine lOO and Ijianl iintry iiiii 'lie <) llio D.^piii'i (J, illltl ho lllS'i- iM'o in (loplli. 1 Pino Uiv.i 1 il iiiilil Foil 1 c'sm bo iiscoi- lOrt lo liiiisviiy.^ \\\M bot^ii vorv The In.iiii liio LiiU-l, h in Fort Nolsoii i!o8 following' Muvigiiblo tbi in tho same at importancL' iliinj;'- lSrlkirl-"■■ cot only above iiurd iliver ii- Nelson, is an 10 mouth of th- [io, and a largo :tremoly rapid Inarrow cafions ., I supposo ? Is are generally \ this river and railway could bo taken thiniigh tho mountain^ b}' kooping ab»ng tho slopes of tho main valley and iiway Irom iho acliiul I'liuons. Tlio navigability of llio rivor is not a good Orilorioii for tho aviiiiabiiity of tho vailoy for building a road or radway, but it would bo nocoi^sary in njost pianos to kt-op away from tho banks of tho rivor itsolf, 'riio (^iiAiiiM \N.— Kcopitig on the high plateau? I>i-, Dawson. — Ki-opiiig above tho edge of tho cirtlons and along tlio trough of the valloy on tho lowor slopos of tho mountains, tho valley being gonoialiy wido. In I hi"' part of iho valloy you cross tho Kooky Moimlainx, pi(»pfr, at a very low elovalion. On rcaidiing llio mouth of tho Doaso l{iV(>r to tho wost of tho moiinlains, youaroal an olovalion of aboiil'J, 5(10 loot only abov»i the lovoloflho soa. 'rhoiico tho route would follow a line along the upper valloy of tho [.iard and tho Franois liivor to Francis Lake, crossing thenco to tho boadwutors of the I'olly and following tho Polly down lo Fori Selkirk, wlii(di I have spoken of as a coniinon jyoint tor the several routo>. Hon. Sii- .loiiN Cahlino. — Fort.Solkiik is to bo tho beacbjuartors of the Yukon Distriet ? Dr. Dawson. — It is ho staled. Hon. .Mr. M acdonald (M.O.). — How far is Fort .Selkirk from Dawson City? Dr. Dawson. — About \lh miles by tho rivor. Hon. .Mr. .Maci)onai,i> (H.l*. ). — Tliai would bo twelve or thirtoon hundred miles that Dawson (Jity would be from Kdmonloti ? Dr. Dawson. — Yos, fully that. Hon. .Mr. I'eiu.ky — On tho whole tlioro would be no difficulty in building a wagon road or pack trail from Kdmonton to Selkirk ? Dr. Dawson. — No ; and I may say wiih particular refer nco to the country to the north of the mouth of (ho Deaso, on this route, that I do not think there is any diffieully in building a v/agon roa 1 or pack trail or railway by (he Liard and Francos rivers — and across from Francos Lake lo (ho Polly — no groat difficulty. Tho height of land there in tho pass, if it can be called a pass, is quite easy ; it is a wido uniform valloy and tho elevation is low; the watershed is only y, 150 feet above tho iovol of the sea. The Chairman. — That would not bo that to go over the Pass ? Dr. Dawson — No ; it is quite low. tlio ditforonco in height botweon Prances Lake and tho summit is about 570 feet and between the summit and the Polly about 180 feet. Then continuing down (ho Polly valley, there would be no great difficulty in making either a trail or wagon ro.ad or railway chiefly along tho north bank of that rivor down to the Selkirk. The (/IIAirman. — That would be down in the Polly? Dr. Dawson. — Yes; keeping not tar from tho river in most places. Tho valloy is wide, with easy slopes. There are some places whore it would bo necessary to take to the hillside and cut (he road out, but these are few and short. Hon. Mr. Maodonald (B.C). — Is thai part of tho Polly River rapid ? Dr. Dawson. — It is fairly lapid, but it is navigable, I believe, for light stern wheel s(eamors us far as Hooio ('ailon, and is easily navigable up to the Macmillan iJiver, which is 50 miles above Fort Selkirk. Perhaps I may now be allowed to road the distances out again so as to make tho note continuous as far as possible. Peace River Landing to Fort St. John, about 145 miles; Fort St. .John to the mouth of the Nelson River, about 310 miles; Nelson Rivor to the lower end of the Grand Canon of Liard Hi ver, 40 miles; route across tho Liard Rivev and following north bank through the Grand CaSon, 20 miles — that is the difficult part :^here tho river crosses the mountains, it is the only rough pavt there is. Grand Canon to the mouth of Dease River, 135 miles — mostof that distance is fairly easy for construction; from the month ofDoase Kiver northward along the east side of the Liard and Frances Rivers to latitude 60°, 30, 50 miles, chiefly easy; thence northward to lower end of Frances Ldle, 53 miles — chiefly easy; thence along Frances Lr.ke, west side, to PMnlayson River, 27 miles — rather difficult. It is hilly, with slopes running down to the Lake. Then along the Finlayson River and Lake to the Pelly, 50 miles — mostly easy; orosfiiog Pelly River and following the north bank to Hoole Caflon, 35 miles — easy. 5—4 50 ROUTES TO rHE YUKON. i|i Hoolo Canon is tho highest point to which tlio Peily Kiver might be navigated by steamors of light draft, and good power at tavonible stages of tho water ; it is about 270 miles above Selkirk following the bends of the river, following the north bank of the Tolly, with a trail or road, it would be about 200 miies to Selkirk frona Hoole Canon, and ihat distance is fiirly easy for construction all the way. Jlon. Sir John Carmnq. — Hoole Canon is the head of navigation on the Pelly River ? Dr. Dawson. — Yes. The CiiAiUMAN.— Making a total of 1,100 milos, I think ? Dr. DvwsoN.— Yes, ahoiit that, to Hoole Caflon I make it 1,090 miles trora Edmonton, to Selkirk 1,340 miles from Hdmonton. Hon. Sir .Toiin Caiiling — Do I understand yon that tho Pelly River from Heole Canon is navigable for 200 miles without any break ? Dr. Dawson. — Yes, 200 miles in striiight distance. I am of opinion that it can bo navigated by properly constructed stern wheel steamers with good power and not too large; but it is not a river like tho Lowes; it' is not so large as the Lewes, H;.d at low water it would be difficult I think to iind three feet of water overall the bars going up there. The Chairman. — What about snov. in these valleys for railroad purposes, have you any idea ? Dr. Dawson.— There is ro evidence of any heavy snow-fiill along the route I am now describing. In fact we know that for the greater part of the distance at least from Kdmonton to Selkirk, the snow-fall is light. Hon. Mr, McOALt.uM. — What lungth of time in the year, would you have navi- gation on that river? Dr. Dawson. — Tho Pi Uy is not likely to freeze earlier than the other rivers ; I Bupportc it is o|)en from about the loth of Msiy to tho 15th of October or Ist of November; but the lowness of water in the autumn may be found to shorten the navigable season somewhat. Wo are without experience on this point. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — But as far as the frost isconce-nedyou can navigate that length of time ? Dr. Dawso.\.— That is my opinion. Hon. Sir John Carling, — You think. Doctor, there would bo no difficulty in coustructiiig a waggon road through that distance ? Dr. Dawson. — That is my belief. , Hon. Sir John Carlinq. — Nor railroad? Dr. Dawson. — No; none at all. except in regard to tho distance ; the total dis- tance to be covered in eithei' case, i^ very great. The route is an e.isy one on the whole and a pack tr;iil or wagon road could be made at small cost, considering the distance, a])art ir •m the bridging of the numerous rivers. Hon. Sir John Carlinq. — You can have scows? Dr. Dawson.— Yes, or svvim your horses across, and raft your stuti over. Hon. Mr. McCaij.um.— You could not get timber suitable, could you ; tho limber u^ there would sink ? Dr. Dawson.— You could get plenty of burnt timber that would be suitable for making rafts, in most idaccs, according to my ('X|)er",ence. Hon. Mr. Perley.— Then, as has been suggested, you could get scows to use in crossing? Dr. Dawson.— Certainly, if the route should bo employed at all extensively. The Chairman.— As far as distances are concerned that probably is the most direct route and will be actually tiie shortest ilistance to Fort Selkirk? Dr. Dawson.- Yes, undoubtedly tho most direct route to Fort Selkirk; from the east, which connects with any actual railway line. The Chairman. — And you have a loss mountainous country? Dr. Dawson.— Yes, but that may or may not bo an advantage, because tho mountainous country would perhaps bo more productive than tho foothill and prairie country which the route 1 have been speaking of would traverse. Hon. Mr. Perlby.— Why ? ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 51 i Dr. Dawson. — With the exception of the agricultural resources, from Edmon- ton to the point at which you cross the Eocky Mountains on the Liard f\ivor, and the gold which occurs in a finely diHeminated form in the larger riveis in that stretch of country, there are no mineral resources to be looked for except coijl. There is coal through that country, it can bo found in many placew, but that part of the line from Edmonton until it crosses the mountains by the Liard valley (or you m&y almost say to the mouth of the Deaso Eiver) cannot be expected to become a mining country to any great degree except in regard to coal. Thus, in respect to thg immediate prospects of development dependent on discoveries of rich metaliferou^' deposits, it is a question whether a road running for the most part west of the mail range of the Rooky Mountains would not pay for itself better and even produce better results in regart' to the Edmonton district. Elon. M''. McCallum.— Did you discover any indication o petroleum in the banks of any of those rivers? Dr. Dawson. — Yes; Mr. McConnell has carefully examined the ro/jion along the lower Athabasca and has described fully the largo outflows of mineral pitch which occur there. The Geological Survey has been buring lor two or three years, in the endwavoiir to tap petroleum beaiing strata from which this tar is believed to be derived. We have not yet succeeded in this, although we have tapped a tremendous flow of natural gas at the mouth of the Puiican River lust year which brought the boring operations to a close at that place for the lime being, because nothing could be kept in the bore-hole. Hon. Mr. Perley. — fliVve you discovered any indication of coal on that route ? Dr. Dawson. — Yes, t'lere is plenty of coal. There i^ coal at Edmonton— lignite coal ; and there is coal at several places on the Athabu> through the Pine River Pass to Fort Simi>son, and there is another short elevate pass. Would you give us an idea of tho-e ? Dr. Dawson. — Yes, sir. I may refer next, briefly, to at- route by the Yellow Head ['ass. There is a certain advantage in that route, as I lave just indicated. It leads most directly from Edmonton into what will undoubtedly become a rich mineral country. From Edmonton it is about 240 miles only to the summit of the pass in a westward direction, and having crossed thesummitat an elevation of about 3,700 feet, the route would follow a remarkably straight valley which, though it lies in a mountainouscountry might prove equally suitable, or perhaps more suitable, for a raibv'iy line than that to the east of the Rocky Mountains proper. A road or railway constructed along this route would lead to the development of mineral wealth in all the contiguous region west of the range, along its course. Thus although the country to be crossed east of the mountains may be rich in agricultural possibilities, and in coal, these resources are not immediately raarketablo, while the alternative route via the Yellow Head Pass and westof the mountaios the prospector would be enabled to get into a mineral country and he would follow up, and open up that country. 6— 4J 62 HCUTES TO THE YUKON. The Chairman — Then you would come out at the Doase Eiver valley ? Dr. Dawson. — ^ en. TIiIb route which I have called No. 2, joins t'ne liret at the mouth of the Dense River. lion. Sir John Carlinq. — What woukl bo the ditl'orencc in the distance ? Dr. Dawson. — Measurini; the respective distances as 1 have done, without takin.L'^ into account minor curvatures, the ditloronce is about 90 miles against the Yellow Head route. The Chairman.— To Kort Selkirk ? Dr. Dawson. — To i'ort Selkirk or to the point where they meet at the mouth of the Dease Hivei. The Chairman. — Both routes meet ai the mouth of the Doase ? J)r. Dawson. — Yes, they come together there. Hon. Mr. Perlky. — This route number one, 0:i8l of the mountains, would be a better route for a jiack trail, for cattle, and number two would be the better railway route ? Dr. Dawson. — Yes. On route number one, there are more facilities for grazing, agricultural lands and opjiortunities for cutting hay. The Chairman. — In order to be avuilible to get foot into that country number one route would be a better route than the other? Dr. Dawson. — Yes, only 1 doubt somewhat the feasibility of carrying supplies for so great a distance, from a commercial standpoint. Hon. Mr. Perley. — It would take three months ? Dr. Dawson. — You cannot drive cattle more than about ten miles a day if you want to keep ihein fat and in good comlition and it is a long summer's journey. It would be necessary, unless bridges were built, to swim the animals over twenty or thirty rivers. The greater part of a day would be occupied in each case. The Chairman. — The ])roper way would be to keep your cattle at the Peace Eiver and go on the following season ? Dr. Dawson. — Ves. Mr. McCallum. — Keep them in good order all winter? Dr. Dawson. — Yes, cut hay tor them. Continuing by the second route from the Yellow Head Pass along the valley of the Upper Fraser which this route would follow to the Giscome Portage, is about 205 miles measured in a straight line, and without taking the sinuosities of the river. The valley is wide, from two to four miles wide in many places and direct in its main course. Hon. Mr. Perley. — And timbered ? Dr. Dawson. — Yes. mostly timbered, and agreat part of the length of the river is navigable watei'. A stretch of navigable water ot this kind helps much in open- ing out any such route. From about 50 miles west ot the summit of the Yellow Head Pass, at the mouth of the Cranberry Hiver, to the (Irand liapids there is 185 miles of river following the sinuosities, which is easily navigable for stem wheel steamers. TI.e Chairman. — That is on the Frasor? Dr. Dawson. — That is on the Upper F'raser, Then from the north bend of the F'raser acrcjbs to the Giscou'e I'orlage and on to the junction of tne Parsnip and the F'mluy .Rivers — these two rivers jvor the whole distance referred to. The r'HAiRMAN. — You would not strike over to Dease Lake? Dr. Dawson.— No, you get into (he hilly country there and it would be off the direct route. With i-egard to tho route from Edmonton, west, through the Yellow Head Pass, and its continuation down the Frasi.r as far as Giscomo Portage, 1 may add that wo have accurate in>tiumental surveys made by Ihe trovornment iFuring the cxi)lorations for the C. P. II. Mr. Marcus Smith and .Mr. 11. Maclood are conversant with these and coui 1, undoubtedly, if you require if, give you all the distances and otherdata in detail. 1 am only endeavouring to present a general idea of the route. The Chairman. — From Yellow Head to where? Dr. Dawson.— To the (Jiscome Portage at the north bond of the Fraaer, lion. Mr. Peri.ey. — Where does the Frasor run? Dr. Dawson. — It runs south from the viciiiify of Giscome Portage. Hon. Mr. Perley. — What is the rtd liiu^ numbered:^. Dr. Dawson. — That lino follow.^ another natural route up ihroughtho western part ofBriiihh Columbia. It might begin at Ashcroft or Kamloops or some other suitable jtoint on the railway, leading to Quosnello at the mouth of the river of the same name, which fnay bo taken a> a point common to routes coming up from tho south. Thence the western route would cross the Blackwafcr Rivei-, going in a north-westerly direction, on to Fort Fraser. The countr}' is somewhat hilly but not difficult. I believe a railway line could be built ihrough thei' without any difficulty. Crossing tho river at Fort Fraser \'ou get into tho Bulkley I Watsoidiwa valloj', which constitute u main depression running parallel to the mouniain lange?-, There is compar'ativoly littlo agricultural land, but much good grazing land. Thi-< main valley leads to the Forks of the Skcona lliver, commonly known as Ilaziiion. This place is only about 150 miles from tho coast and can be reached by steameis from the coast. Thence, following known valloyN which are not difficult, the route crosses to the Nass Rivei-. From tho Nass to Telegraph Creek, on the Stikine, very little known, but there is no reason to suppose any particular difficulty in traversing this distance; Hon. Mr. Perley. — Where is Toslin Lake? Dr. Dawson. — It is on the route I am following now, about 145 miles north of Telegraph Creek. Tho old Tolegr;iph Trail followed the route 1 am now describing as far north as Telegraph Creek, and altbo.igh tho surveys made in connection with it wore little better than sketches, they show continuous valleys leading to Telegraph Creek. Hon, Mr. Macdonald (M.C.).— The only thing against it is the distance? Dr. Dawson.— Yes. I think it is about the same from Ashcroft to Selkirk, or to Dawson, us from Edmonton. Hon. Mr. MAcuoNAf,D (B.C.)— About 1,400 miles? Dr. Dawson. — Yes about l.;^40 to Dawson. The Chairman.— In taking that route to the Yellow Head Pass you could reach Hazelton without any difficulty? i^v. Dawson.— Yes, you could run right across on the linool the projected British Pacific Railway to any terminal on the coast. The Chairman, — To Port Simpson ? .64 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. T)r. Dawson.— Yo8. and then you mi/j:ht have a northern branch. The CirAiBMAN.— I think \ hoard Mr. Jennings Hay that if he was i,'oing to survey the route between Tele.graph Creek and Teslin Lake a<;ain. ho thonirht very prob- ably he could tind a better route by keeping to the east of the Dease Kiver. Dr. Dawson.— I think he referred to the Tooya Eiver as a probable route. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.).— There is a lino being built this year up in that direction, the Cassiar Central Railwav. Dr. Dawson.— Wo had reached Telegraph Ci'cek on the third projected route. Then from Telegraph Creek to Teslin Lake is about 145 miles. That is the route which has been so much discu.ssod. The Chairman.— You have two passes to cross, have you not, between Telegraph Creek ami Teslin Lake? Dr. Dawson— Although T have been at Telegraph Creek, I know of the route between that place and To>lin Lake only fi'om Mr. Jenning's re})ort, so that I think it would bo more satisfactory to I'ofer to that report, than to deiiord upon anything I might say from memory. But the 145 miles just spoken of wouhl eventually become a part of the general route I have boon describing. It would fall in even- tually as a part of the whole. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.).— The Kitamat is supposed to bo very good — very fine grazing country almost to Telegraph Creek ? Dr. Dawson. — Mr. Gauvreau examined that route I believe and made a report for the British Columbia (irovornnient some years ago. lie went through irom the head of Kilamat Arm to the Skcona, and I think through by the Quatsalix to the Nass. There is a valley there and a route, I have fortfotten the year, but it is primed in one of the reports of the Department of Public Works of British Columbia. The Chairman. — Could you tell us where tho mines are located in the neigh- bourhood of the routes you have spoken of? There are some mines in the Omenica district, are thei'o not ? Dr. Dawson. — The famous old Cariboo mining district lies to the south of the north bend oflheFiaser. Then, north of that, about 26tJ miles, is the Omenica country, almost due west of the confluence of the Parsnip and tho Finlay. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.). — Then the Cassiar? Dr. Dawson. — The Cassiar gold country lies about 280 milesstill furthernortb, inclur. Dawson.— I do not know. They would be chiefly the routes leading from th'j Pacific coast. There is the route by the Dalton trail from Chilkat Inlet. I do not know anything jiorsonally about that, but it has been spoken of. Then there is the route from Dyea Inlet liy the liewes River, and the route from the Takii Inlet to Toslin Lake, which has also been discussed. \ doubt if it is an easy route, but on the map it is a short one. There is the Stikiiie River route, and a suggested route from Alice Arm, or from the Nass Eiver, where there is a good harbour. There are also possible routes by the Skeena River and from Kitamat Arm— all these are routes, running in a cl)mparativf ly short distance from the coast, are generally designed to strike some navigable water in the interior. I understood the 66 ROUTES TO THE YUKOS. object of this inquiry to be ratbor to diBCOver some means of connection with the existing Cunudiun Railway lines. Memoranduai, added by request of tbe Ciiairraan. on the dintances from point to point along the three routes described, from different points on existing Can- adian railways to Fort Se. kirk, Yukon District. Note.— Iho distances given are measured in straight Htrotches of about ten miles, without taking into consideration any of the smaller sinuoHilies of the several routes. 'Ilie addition due to such sinuosities would probably be about the same on the average on the ditferent routes, and so far as our information goes, the difficulty of constructing a road or railway along the throe routes mentioneil would be about the same, while each of the routes may be described as generally favourable. Route 1. — From Edmonton, east of the Rocky mountains to Liard river and thence to Old Fort Selkirk. MileM, Edmonton to Old Port Assiniboine, Athabasca River 75 Old Fort Assiniboine to West end of Lessor Slave Lake 135 Lesser Slave Lake to Peace liivei'at mouth of Smoky River, (Peace River Lan(li?ii;)., fi5 Mouth of Smoky river to Fort St. John 145 (Note. — A saving of about 50 miles in distance mit^ht pro- bably be made by goinj; in a nearly direct line from Old Fort Assiniboine to Fort St. John.) Kort St. John to Liard River near mouth of Nelson River... 310 Liard River near mouth of Nelson River to mouth of Dease river ■ 19,") Mouth of Dease River to mouth of Finlayson River 130 Mouth of Finlayson River to Polly Banks. 50 Pelly Banks to Hoole Ciifion 35 Hoolo Cafion to Old Fort Selkirk 200 Total 1,340 Or, deducting 50 miles, as above 1,290 Route 2. — From Edmonton to Yellow Head Pass, thence by Upper Eraser River to Giscorae I'ortago, thence by Finlay and Black Rivers to mouth of Dease River, joining .oute 1 there. Miles. Edmonton to Yellow Head Pass 240 Y'oilow Head Pass to Giscorae Portage. 205 Giscomo Portage to mouth of Finlay 150 Mouth of Finlay to mouth of Dease (about) 370 9t)5 Add distance as by loute 1, from mouth of Dease to old FortSelkirk 415 Total 1,380 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 57 EOTITE 3. — From Afihcroft Station, Canadian Pacific Railway to old Fort Selkirk, Yukon District following the western line of valleys in BiiUsh Columbia. NoTE.-Other stations on the Canadian Pacific Railway. Such as Savona or Kamloops might be adopted us starting points without much difference in the through distance. Ashcroft to Quesnel (distance by wagon-road 230 miles). 185 Quesnel to Fort Fiaser \^^^ 115 Fort Fraser to Hazellon (Forks of SkoemOr.'!.!!!!!.".*.*!".!"" 165 Hazolton to Telegraph Creek (Stikine) .!."".!!."."!'!!' 255 Telegraph Creek to head of Teslin Lake !.!'..!!!!!!!.!! 145 Head of Teslin Lake to mouth of'Tehlin River ..... .*.!!!.". 165 Mouth of Teslin River to old Fort Selkirk .^^... 140 Total 1170 , The Chairman.— I wrote to the manager of the Hudson Bay Company at Prince Albert and received this reply which 1 will road to the committee. Offick of the Boahd of Trade, ^ . ^ Prince Albeet, Sask., 21st April, 1898. Hon. C, A. BocLTON, Chairman Senate Committee. Sir,— In reply to your letter addressed to Mr. Galbraith, Hudson Bay Company officer, in charge hero, 1 beg to inclose a short, report based on reliable wiformation received from disinterested parties who speak from a j»ractical knowledge of the same. I have the honour to be, sir, Vour obedient servant, ALKX. McNABB, Secretary Prince Albert Board of Trade. REPORT FROM PRINCI^: ALBF^RT TO THE SENATE C^OMMITTEE ON ROUTES TO THE YUKON. Office op the Boaud of Trade, Prince Albert, Sask., 21st April, 1898. Starting from Prince Albert, the terminus of the Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railway and the proposed terminus of the Manitoba and North-western Railway, a passably good wagon road of l40 miles in a north-westerly direction brings you to Green Lake, the commencement of water navigation. But by the expenditure of some ($2,000) two thousand dollars a good wagon load could be built to Green Lake in a direct lire and reduce the distance to (92) v' lety-two miles. Some thirty miles of this road is at present open and in good 'n ution. From Green Lake the entire dihtance to the mouth of the Liard River, or, if preferable, to the mouth of the McKenzie, is down «'ream, with the exception of a short stretch (some twenty-four miles) ascending Meltio Jiiver and two portages, one between Mettie Lake and Clearwater River, known us Portage la Losche (1-;V) twelve and one-third miles in length, and one at Fort Smith, on Slave River (14), fourteen miles in length. The cost of freighting supplies is guaranteed by the Board of Trade not to exceed ^1.50 per 100 pounds from Prince Albert to Green Lake, and fifty cents crossing Portage la Losche. The Hudson Bay Company charge seventy- 58 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. five cents per 100 poundH at Fort Smith. There arc no rapids or dant^'erous navigation, nor are any difficulties oncounterod until roachintr " Hell i,'ato," on the Liard River, a considerjiblo diHtanco above the junction of the Nolfon with tliut river, when very rou^h water iH oncoiintorod. It Ih o.stimuted that all ihi' porta,<,nn^f put together between " Hell gate " and navit;,.ole waters of the I'elley amount lo (6"0) wixty miles. This of oourse includes Cani])beirs portage, from the lakcH to the PoUey. From thin point on the i'olloy the river can bo deKotKled with good water and no danger; any distance retiuired. Posts of the Hudson Bay Company are at intervals along tills lino of travel, as also missions of the Itoman Catholic Church, in the tbiiowing order: — (rroen Lake Post, Ihle a la Crosse Post and mission of Roman C'athoiic Ciiurch; also a convent school — Burtaloo Lake Post, (nouth end), Butt'aloo Lake Post (north end), Portage la Losche Post, Fort McMurray, Fort Chippewej'an, on Athabasca Lake, Fort Smith, on Slave River, Fort, Resolution, mouth of Slave River, Hay River Post and Roman Catholic mission. Fort Providence Post and Roman Catholic mission, Fort Simpson, mouth of Liard. Fort Liard on thai I'iver. H' one jiroceeds down the McKenzio River you pass Fort K"oi'man, Fort (lood Hoiu), and on the Peel Rivnr Fort McPherson, at most of which there are resident priesis of the Roman Catholic Church who conduct schools as well as give religious instruction. It might not be out of place to explain the actual mode of travel and cost to each individual person, A "sturgeon head" boat, capacity 8,000 pounds, cost at Green Lake 8150 for a jiarty of (.5) tive, This allows 1,(500 pounds per man, if 140 pounds are allowed for each man's clothing, miner's tools and a proportionate iihare of camp equipage, it leaves 1,4C0 pounds weight of provisions, or (2) two pounds per day for (2) two years. This ration is not sufficient, but as only eighteen months are necessary to give two summers' A^ork in the mines, and as fish, fowl and game are abundant along the lino of travel, this with economy should suffice. A" regards expense — say i of 8150 : — Each individual's share of boat 8 30 00 Freighting 1,()00 pounds to Green Lake at 81.50 per cwt. 2-t 00 do 1,600 do across Porta{;e la Lo.sche at fiOc. 8 00 do 1,G00 do do Fort Smith at 75c 12 00 Total expense 8 74 00 If we make a similar calculation by pack animals as via the Edmonton route, we would have 10 horses carrying 1;0 pounds each 1,500 pounds. 1 horse do 100 do 100 do 1 extra horse to ride and have in emergency. JL2 1,(J00 pounds. It would be safe to say that these (12) twelve horses, witii pack saddles, hob- hies and halters wouKi C0flr. Aj St. Cyr was callod imd oxatniruMi by iho Committoo as follows:— Tho Chairman.— Tho object of this Com'mitloo is to at>certaiii by inquiry the best mode of coiiiiecaiiif,' the railway coinrnunicatiou of Canada into ihe Yukon country, 80 as to ascertain how far it is advantai^eous for eastern trade o'ver the coust route. Wliat surveys havo you mado of that country? Mr. St. Cyr — I surveyed To.slin Luke and Teslin Rivei'. The Chairman. — Last year ? Mr. St. Cyr.— Yes. The Chairman. — Wore you up there before ? Mr. St. Cyr. — No, sir. Tho Chairman. — That is your first trip to that country ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes, Tho Chairman.— Have you ever been in from Edmonton '{ Mr. St. Cyr. — No. The Chairman. — Did you survey from Telegraph Creek? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yos, I madi* a track survey of the trail. The Chairman. — For a wagon road, or ior a railroad ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Well, ihe tract survey was just to give a description of the country. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Whore did j'ou go into the country ? What part liid you start from ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Telegraph Creek. Tiie Chairman. — You woiit u)) tho Stikine? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yos, I went up ihu Stikine. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — What time of the year was that? Mr. St. Cyr. — Iwontthero in May — about the middle of May. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — The river was quite open then I suppose ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yos and the water was pretty high. The Chairman. — And you then started a track survey from Telegraph Creek to Teslin Lake ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes, sir. Tho Chairman. — And wjiat kind of country did you pass through ? Just give a description. Mr. St, Cyr. — Well, first of all I went along the Stikine and surveyed up to the Tail! tan bridge. This part of the country is cut up a good deal by deep gulches. Tho Chairman, — Tahltan bridge is above Tolegra|)h Creek ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes, it is about eleven miles above. The Chairman, — You wont up that far, I suppose for the j)urpo89 of trying to get out of the Siikuie River, Mr. St, Cyr. — Yoe, there was an old road there, and I wanted to see what the country was like. After you get to the Tahltan Rivor tho gorge, there is quite an obstacle to a road — any kind of road — the only road they have to-day is a pack trail. It would bo pretty hard either to get a wagon road or railroad there. So I came back to Telegraph Creek, and I went to the Pass, up to the Tahltan again, and of course 1 had to cross the summit there. The summit is, I thiidc, 3,500 feet above tho sea level. i The Chairman. — That is from Telegraph Creek or from Tahltan ? ROUTES TO THE YUKOS\ Mr. St. Cyr. — F'rom Tolof^ruph ('rook. Tho CiiAiiiMAN. — Ahoiit WJM) teol ahovo the wen lovol. Mr. St. Oyr.— Well, I um not Mure I tliiiik tho report ^fives it. My report doe* give it. The Chairman. — How is it about goitin^' oul from ToU-graph Creek ? Pretty doup valley ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yos, it itt it hIojio — it is » roi,nilar hlopo u|) to the Push. It is a pretty wtcep icrado. Tho uverai,'o grudo vvould lie about fix pur cent. Tho Chairman. — And it is several miles to got up there ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes, about nino iniios. The Chairman. — That iw o got up to tho summit ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes. Tho Chairman. — And then after you oro-H tho summit ? Mr. St. Cyr. — After we cross the\umnut it is ))ietly level up to near the Tahl- tan river. There is a bench there about 150 fool high to got down to the river, and of course when 1 strike tho liver on that trail I have gained about l.JOO feet. The Chairman. — And then you proceed, and what is the character of tho country ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Oh, it is good, it is level. Tho Ciiaibman. — After vou get over the summit ';" Mr. St. Cyr.— Yes. Tho Chairman. — There is only one summit to cross ? Mr. St. Cyb. — There are only two summits but the othei- one is only about 200 feet and there is a l)ench road from the river, and then it is level up tiie valley of the north i^'ork of the Tahlton, and after that it is level up to Egglo's PoHt. Tho Chairman. — That is on Toslin Lake ? Mr. St. ('yh. — No, this is on Cackotts River. It is one of tho tributai'ies. Tiie Chairman. — And then from there 'I Mr. St. C'yr. — Well, from that j)o.st there is a steep hill, very stooj) hill. Tho Cn^i'RMAN — Wl'.ich you have to get over ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes, and then we got to the height of land. From that to tho Maliirno Iliver the country is pretty fair. Tho Chairman. — So that the grades aro j)retty heavy in some places ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes, very heavy in some places. Hon. Mr. Macdonai.d (B.C.) — Heavy grades from Telegraph Creek up to TeelinV Mr. St. Cyr. — Heavy gradoH from Telegraph Creek to the summit and then again from Egglo's Post to Die height of land— after passing Kggle's Post. The Chairman. — Tho water then commences to run north and before that was running south into the Stikine ? Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.;— The water runs to the north before you get to Teslin Lake ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes, tiiis water runs north and Joins the Inklin Hiver, and from the valley of the Inklin llivor there is still sixty-five miles to Teslin Lake. Tho Chairman.— It is still 8ixt3.Mive miles to Toslin Lake ? Mr. St. Cyr.— Yes, and it is not good. From the Maligne to the Big Lake it is a bad country, but I located a road on tho east side of the valley that would do for a wagon road or a railroad. Hon. Mr. McCalli.m.— On the east side of tho valley? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes, on the east side of the valley. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Is there a trail or sleigh road through there now at all ? Mr. St. Cyr. — I could not say. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Just tho rough country you were going through ? Mr. St. Cyr.— Yes, just a path. There was only a bridle path. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— There must have been a trail of some kind going to Cassiar in the old days ? Mr. St. Cyh.— Through that district ? liOUTES TO THE YUKON. 63 lei'o now Hon. Mr. Macdonai.d (B.(;.)— Yoh, thoy iisod to i,'o a littlo oast of ToHlin Luke towanlrt Ihorto lakoH to tlio (/'iinNiiir. In tlioro ii trail tlioro, tliut tboy could go up l»y ? Mr. St. (!yh. — Yoh, it is Mtiii travellod agood deal. The Chaiuman. — Up lo thowo lakoH? Mr. Ht. Cyii.— Yoh, The CiiAiBMA.N.— Tlion lliorc is somo talk about tun miloH up the iako further ? Mr. St. Cva. — Yos. The Chairman. — What was that for '! Mr. St. Cyii. — Of oouiho, it in ])art of the river. In low water thin part may be called the mouth of White Swan Kiver; that flowH in tho Big Lalco in that placo whole Corbott's Post is. The C11AIR.MAN.— Anil the water is very low ? Mr. Sf. Cyr. — Shallow water — yes. The CnAiR.MAN. — So that you ■.m) up there in order to ii;ot deeper water '! Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes. There are a couple of jjliicos in the narrows where there is not more than throe feet of water — that is at the time that I wont through in September. The Chairman. — And how fai' up the llootalinqua liid you go? Mr. St. Cvr. — Oh, I wont down tho whole length of it. Tho CiiA' MIAN. — And is a railroad practicalde in the valley of tho Hootalinqua up to Fort Selkirk ? Mr. St. Cyb. — 1 could not say up to Fort Selkirk, because I did not go any fui- ther than tho confluence of tho llootalin([ua and tho Lowes. The Chairman. — Is a railroad practicable that far? Mr. St. Cyr. — Well, it is bench country; it Ib all benches. The Chairman. — What wo call tho spurs of the mountain como down there? Mr. St. (Jyr. — Yes. You know there are deep ravines, but still there is no rock work; it is all gravel. Tho Chairman. — But then, of course, the crossing of these ravines would be expensive? Mr. St, )yr.— Vv -il, yes; they are very high, that is, very deep. The Chaiu :aw. — Then you started in on the Tooya. You backed and started in on the Tooya Valley ; that is a little crook running up to that lake there. That leads you into tho Doaso River countrj'? Mr. St. ('yr. — Y'os. The Chairman. — How did you tind that route as far as Tooya Lake? Mr. St. Cyb. — I ilul not go the whole distance. I was ciillod back in the fall, you know. Of course I had to follow the instructions that were given, but what I saw of it, it was high. lion. Sir John ('aiu-ino. — What were the instructions ? Was it with a view of exploring for a railway ? Mr. St. Cyb. — It was to keep high on the east side of Tooya Valley. Hon. Sir John Carlinu.— You are an engineer, are you? Mr. St. Cyr. — Surveyor. Hon. Mr. Macdonalu (B.C.)— Did you go out for the Dominion Government? Mr. St. Cyr.— Yes. Hon. Sir John Carlino.- It was not with a view of making a road or railroad, or anything of that kind ? Mr. St. Cyr.— No. . , ,. r l j u The Chairman.— Just a track survey to ascertain the lie of the country and the heights and so on. Mr. St. Cyk.— Yes. . ., , , , . ^ ,. Hon. Mr. McCallum.— You speak of running a railroad along the river. Could you get a little distance from the river ? Mr. St. Cyb.— From the Hootalinqua. Hon. Mr. McCallum.— Yes ? Mr. St. Cyb.— The mountains and hills are far away. 61 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. Hon. Mr. McCallom.— Because when you speak of ^'ulley they will be deeper next the river ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes. Hon. I'v. McCallu.m.— But you rouM not get a way trom the river at all, could yoa ? Mr. St. Cyh.— The mountains are cut by deep valleys and there are several of them along this bank, anil of course, it you are going to run far with the railway you woulii have to cross all those valleys. The Chairman. — If it were g- .ig further than Teslin Lake you would have to cress all tiiose valleys? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes. Tho CiiAiaMAN. — And of course they are very wide at the moutii ? iMr. Si. Cyr. — Yes, but of course these benches are easily worked, being all the valleys. The Chairman. — But you could not block U)) thogulloys; you would have to trestle them ? Ml. St. (h'R— "Ves. The (yiiAiRM.vN — Take this Tooya route — was that an easier route that the one you followed ? Mr. St. Cyr. — 1 did not exi)lore the valley. The Chairman. — You did not explore the val'ey sufficiently? Mr. St. Cyr.— No. The Chairman. — The Tooya rouie leads into the Cassair mountain country. There are mines in the Dease River, ai-e there not ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes. VVell, Dease Lake is east of that Tooya Lake quite a distance. The Chairman. — Thirty or forty miles ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes, and of course, when ihey go to Dease Lake they follow the right bank of the gtikine — ihey follow it on the Stikine. The Chairman. — Until they get up pretty close to the Dease Lake? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes. Tho Chairman. — Now would it bo practicable, supposing a railway was coming irom the east? Is there a practicable crossing ihei'e on tho Stikine. Is it a very easy placo or difficult place ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Thai is opposite the Tooya ? The CnAiH.UAN. — Sui'po.sing wo were to go in by the Yellow Head Pass or Pine lliver Pass, so as to join 'he railway there, what sort of cros; ing is it over the Stikine ? Mr. St. Cyr. — The crosK'ng is bad because it is all canons. The CiiAiKMAN. — A canon is whore the walls parallel ? Mr, St. Cyr. — Yos, and high mountains close too. The Chairman. — So that c >ming in froni tho east there would be considerable difficulty in going across the Stikine? Mr. St. Cyr. — Eight at the Tahltan briuge il would bo pretty hard. There may be some oiher places further north. Hon. Mr. Macuonai.d (B.C.) — Is the water very rapid from Glenora to Tele- graph Creek ? * Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes. Hon. Mr. Macdonald ( B.C.)— A railway should commonco at Glenorj;, not Telegraph Creek. Mr. Jennings, in his report on that part of the river, says 'it is very strong waler, and a steatner might easily got wrecked there if she lost her steam or power; she would bo dashed against the rocks. Mr. St. Cvr.— Yok, there is a bad rapid quite a distance above Glenora. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) -But yon musU go through to get to Telegraph Creek. o o i Mr. St. Cyr.— Yes. In May there was no sign of rapid there. Hon. M*- Macdonald (B.C.)— The water was high. Mr. St. Cyb. — Yes. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Put it was a very strong current was it? ice ROUTES TO THE YUKOX. 65 legraph Mr. St. CYR.—Yort, pretty strong; but still it does not bother those steamers. They go up there. lion. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Did you examine any other route south of the Stikine River? " |,j;j Mr. St. Cyr.— No. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Not the Slceona River or Nasse, orany of those? Mr. St. Cyb.— No. 1 spunt the HUiumor between the fltikino and Lowes River. Hon. Sir John Carlino. — What is the dit.taace from Tllenora to Tolegvapii Creek ? #h" i Mr. St. Cyr — It is about twelve miles. ilLh.« j The Chairman. — Ail the r^iuveying thet you have done in that north-western country, as yet, is what you did last year ? Mr. Sr. Cyr.— Yes. The Chairman. — And purely in connection with the track surveys from the Stikine to th** Tesiin Lake and north ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes, and that valley. The Chairman. — That gives us an idea, so far as that particular point is con- cerned, in approaching it from the east what difficulties there would have to be encountered. When you say that a little further north there might be a crossing of (he Stikine, you mean a Utile farther northeast? Just south of Dease Lake there it might be easier? Mr. St. Cyr. — Yes, it might be easier ; I could not say. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — Did you go all the way to the Yukon country ? Mr. St. Cyr. — No, sir. Hon. Mr. .Macdonald (B.C.) — You did not go all the way? Mr. St. Cyr.— No. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— You laugh at that; it is a long way ? Mr. St. Cyr. — It in a long way. The Chairman. — And all that country, the Tooya country and the Dease Lake country is all mountainous ? Mr. St. Cyr. — There are some valleys. Hon. Mr. Macdonald ( B.C.)— I suppose if you h.ad gone out to the Yukon country you would not hav* come back — you would dig for gold ? Mr. St. Cyr. — Perhaps I could not gel out. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — You went there in May ? Mr. St. Cyr.— Yes. Hon. Ml-. McCallum.— What time did you leave there .^ Mr. St. Cyr. — I left the Li-vvos Hiv(!r some time in Niisiar excitement steadily as a busint ss. 8. The loute passes on either side the rich Cariboo gold fields and the scarcely explored Omineca country, besides the Cussiar. 9. The whole distance is traversed in the biggest gold belt in the world. All these facts, and more, can be verified at any time from ollicial reportr.. There need be no question of sending the Mounted Police or some one to find out things, they aie already on record. But there ia every reason why they and the troops should follow this route. That it is in bounds of probability that the Stikine- Teslin Hallway will eventual!}' bo brought down to connect at Kamloops with the Canadian Pacific Railway is a fact that no one who knows the subject will contra- tbe mac road tbii abk not come that 1,000 Rive; that I railw Atha I can laiiwi roijtef I(, know; 1 think tho a^ont hero Ih Mr. (iommill Their time for makinj; Hurvoyn has not expired, they have two yearn yet, Tho Chairman.— That road in jjropoHod to go by the north end of Lake Win- nipeg and come through I'rinco Albert? Mr. Smith. — Ych. The (JiiAiRMAN. — And then keep on a northern route to Athabasca Landing? Mr. Smith. — Thoy are noi bound to: tho railway begiuHai any point where it is mo!y wanted otter communication. It was with that object in view I went so far back otherwise, I could biigin at Kdmonton and discuss tho |)oint from there. The Chairman. — 1 lained that they are partly measured and tho others are scaled from the map, and f made an allowance for curvature and the difficulties of the country, somotimos five percent and sometimes ten. and these are only approximate ; at the* same time thoy will do for comparison, because each route is taken the sarn^ way. Then 105 miles to the Parsnip River. The Chairman. — From where ? Mr. Smith. — That is the continuation. This is going on consecutively. I may explain that Parsnip River is tho south branch of the Peace liiver, and tho navi- gation is good from there down to the forks of the Peace River, where all tho rivers join. Hon. Mr. Perley. — How large a river is it there ? Mr. Smith.— 1 think it is some three hundred or four hundred feet wide where we cross it — very good navigation. Hon. Mr. Perley — Deep water? Mr. Smith.— Yes, large boats go down. They have some difficulty there, in fact they had to swim their horses across. We are through now with the Rocky Mountains there, and we are entering the Omonica district. Hon. Mr. Drdmmund.— You have not got to that point yet, have you? Mr. Smith. — Yes. Hon. Mr. Drummond.— I thought you were going to start off north this way? tol w] rei PiJ thJ talJ kn| stn littl Ri\l thei ROUTES TO THE PUKOX. 77 any was :hey will eys, and Their ke Will- ding? here it in not know last year the agent re taking uro thoy ;e Albert IB well as y wanted iherwiso, arly. at iH the was laid und for a a great give' the ce to the orth. I land the land the 1686 are jh route I naay 10 navi- [all the lere we kere, in Rocky way ? Mr. .Smith.— No; I am going thin other route. Vou sec this map was coloured tofihow, a|)|)roximatoly, the general nature of the country, and that yell. .w patch waH gold ; all that wai* more ov Io>h worked an placer gold inineH. The Chairman.— Then thodiHtanoeH from there? Mr. Smith.— Krom there, I put it down eight miles to the Pack River. The reason I put thut short dintanco down is, that, it is very nt-ar Fort Machvwl, and the Pack River is a littlo hoiow the Kort, and tht- other lines I have described intersect there, and then go up further north, and I think you may make an addition und take the total distance to that point from Kdmoiiton 579 miles. Hon. Sir John Cakmnq.— What noint is thai? Mr. Smith.— Near Fort Maeleod, at the foot of Fort Macleod Lake. It is a well known point. That is the reason I mark it there. Then, from theie we make a straight line up to the Tacia, ami then .un between that and Habino Luke, and a little below that, following the outlet of the lake northward, we come to the Skoena River, and strike the Skeena River at a point lion. Mr. AlACDONAiii) (B.C.)— Ilazolton ? Mr. Smith.— No; at the mouth of the Babiue River wo strike the Skeena; and then this company go down to Fort Simpson. Hon. Mr. Dhummonk.— You are not far from the coast there? Mr. Smith. — We aie 150 miles. Hon. Mr. Drummond. — How far is it from Fort Simpson ? Mr. Smith.— 180 miles — lully that. You see, L stop there, and I take all the routes for comparison to that point. The Chairman. — What is the distance to that point? Mr. Smith. — 2o6 miles. That is to the mouth of the Babino. Thai is the end :»8 far as we have described. The Chairman. — To the Skoena? Mr. Smith. — Yes. Hon. Mr. Drummond. — It is 700 odd miles from Edmonton. Mr. S.MITH. — 785 miles. Hon. Mr. Drummono. — And how much down to Fori Simpson ? Mr. Smith. — Well, it is not pertinent to this question because there we would join the route ihen to the Tolegrajth CJreek. The Chairman. — What distance have you there to Telegraph Creek ? You have 180 miles maiked down here. Mr. Smith. — That has nothing to do with it. That is running away to Fort Sini|)8on. Hon. Mr. Drummond. — Do I underst:md that this survey that you made, was with a view to a railway, or a tramway or a road. Mr. Smith. — A first class railway — a bettor one than the C.P.R. as regards grades. Hon. Mr. Drummond. — Then up to this point wo have a survey for a first class railway ? Mr. Smith. — Yes. Hon. Mr. Drummond. — Are you going to continue the same sort of survey up further this way ? Mr. Smith. — Oh, I do not know. Hon. Mr. Drummond.— Can you give us any information from that point up? Mr. Smith. — No. I never wont beyond the Skeona, but I soo from the map it will connect at that point. I will give you the distances without knowing more about the country than that there is a practicable trail there. I scaled fromBabine —that is the point we left off. To Telegraph Creak is 284 to i^OO miles. Hon. Mr. Drummond.— Where is Glenora ? Mr. Smith —That is Gflenora. Telegraph Creek or Glenora. Hon. Sir John Carlinq.— Twelve miles difference. Mr. Smith.— The length is the same. Hon. Mr. Drummond.— That is different from the information I. had before, because I understood from that Glenora to Fort Simpson was something under 300 miles. 78 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 4 § '& The Chairman.— No, it is more than that. , ^ , „.., . Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.).— 'It is 150 miles fiorn the mouth of the Stikioe up to Glenora, and from there to Teslin Lake is how muc!i ? Mr. Smith.— I rauite it 16(1 milen to Tenlin Lake. I have allowed for curvature. I wish to show you the way I 'o it. I take iho net tneasurement with thecompaHsos on the scale, and if it is a difficult country, I ad I five per cent or eight per cent or ten per cent. Hon. Mr. Drummond.— Well this is i.ot a difficiill country. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Oh yes. We had a man who went over it who says It is roii^h. Hon. Mr. Drummond. — Dawson does not say so. Mr. Smith. — You will find that all the distances given by any one who is not a practical engineer will be too short. Hon. Mr. Drdmmo.vd. — I understood the railway projected from Glenora to Teslin Lake by the Mackenzie and Maun way to be 145 to 150 miles. Hc.:i. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.). — But this is twelve miles further. The Chairman. — in rising out of the Stikine Eiver to G'enora you have to vise about three thousand tive hundred feet. Hon. Mr. Deummond. — On the railway? The Chairman. — Y )8. Here is the evidence, and there are two mountains to cross. Mr. Smith. — It is a rather curious thing in jomparing routes ; you see there is the west end of Teslin Lake; well if you take the general direction it is very nearly equal to the road to the head of Peily River, and according to that the northern line away north of the Peace Eiver would be shorter, but it would be simply a through line to ore point. Hon. Mr. Drummond. — How far would you say it is from Telegraph Creek to Fort Simpson. The Chaiuman. — It is about 480 miles. Hon. Mr. Drummond. — I mean to a navigable point — the point at which navi- gation could be carried on. The Chairman. — On the Stikine the navigation is up to Hazeltou. It will be 480 miles to Fort Simpson. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — Car. you tell us how much it is from Fort Simpson to Wrangel ? Mr. Sm'th. — 1 have not the compasses with me. I will take a note and send it to you in an 'nvelope. Hon. Mr, Drummond. — I was told it was 240 miles, but that is an impoesibilily, I suppose ? Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — How many miles is it from Hazelton to Glenora? Mr. Smith. — It would be about 284 milos. Hon. Mr. Maodonald (B.C.) — 284 and 150— that would be 430 miles, Hon. Sir John Carling. — And what is the distance from Fort Simpson to Tele- graph Creek ? Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — It is only ten miles more. I have taken from Glenora 150 miles down to the Wrangel and I have added that to 284, which gives us 434. Mr. Smith. — I do not think the distance I have given is far out. I have given it as close as 1 can. Hon. Sir Job i 'oARLing. — Are you quite sure of (he distance you have given ? Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B. C.) — No, but that is as near as we can make it. Hon. Mr. DuujIMond.— Can you go from Fort Simpson up to the bank of the NasH River and strike in that way? Mr. Smjth — Oh, I think so. Hon. Mr. Drummond. — I would go round that way, Mr. Smith — That is the Na'ia River yo'i are pointing to, Hon. Mr. Drummond.— By the scale on this map I make it 275 T:\les. If you landed at Fort Simpson you would neverdream of going back to that point. ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 79 to Tele- If you The Chairman. — But you have to keep in certain valleys? Hon. Mr. DBv^-^oiOND.— You can go up the shore of the Nass River. You could navigate up ir i,nat point? Mr. Smith.— I have not dealt with the line from the coast. 1 have described the line to connect with the line from the coast, and from Fort Simpson you go up the NasH River. i j o r Hon. Mr. Dbummond.— How far up the Nass can you navigate ? Mr. Smith.— Well, I do not know. There is a Nass harbour. Hon. Mr. Drdmmond.— I would go up as far as my vessel could carry me and then start the railway. Supposing we started up that way how far could we tro un that Nass River ? ' r j b i Mr. Smith.— There is a harboui' there; it is not a largo harbour but it is good enough for discharg.ng a vessel. [ believe steamers of light draught have gone up the Nass River neavly 40 miles. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— You would not go there at all. You want to get to Yukon? Hon. Mr. Drummond. — I am told that is not navigahi.;. Mr. Smith.— It is in American territory. My opinion is that the Nass is the proper channel to come up to the cuust and it is navigable some distance up there. By the line I have described by the Fine River it would make no difference in the total length. It would only be along ihe road to the east. Hon. Sir John Cart^inq.— What is tbo 285 miles ? The Chairman.— Tn at is the distance from the mouth of the Nass to Telegraph Creek. Hon. Sir John Carlinu. — That is just about distance I understood it was. Mr. Shith. — When 1 made my report twenty years ago it had not only the advantage of being a good route to the Pacific coast and short, but the altitude of the pass is very low. 2,700 feet is the highest they give it. Hon. Mi'. Dbummond. — That is the Itocky Mountain pass. Mr. Smith. — Yes ; and there is no other over 2,300 feet. Hon. Mr. Drummond. — That is above the level of the sea? Mr. Smith. — Yes. Hon. Mr. Drummond. — And Edmonton is how much above the level of the sea ? Mr. Smith.— 2,300 feet. Hon. Mr. Drummond.— You have not much of a climb? Mr. Smith. — And besides that you pass through the Cassiar mining district, and as soon as you get across the Rocky mountains eastward, you get into an excellent farming country. Hon. Mr. Drummond. — I have juf •, been reading a book of Mr. Horetzky's. Mr. Smith. — Yes, I know him ;vell and some of the things I have given are from his reports. I did ot take all these reports myself. They were all my assistant's reports, but thoy were all discussed thoroughly with me. 1 always knew a portion of it myself and they were all thoroughl}' discussed before they were printed. Then from EJmonti^n there is another route, and I do not I know if there is not a company in existence with a charter for that, and that is from Edmonton through the Yellow Head Pass. I can describe that line. From Hdmonton to the summit of the Yellow Head Pass is 267 miles this is by measuiements in surveys. From the Yellow Head Pass down to the crossing of the Eraser near the north end of the Cariboo range near Fort (Jeoge, following the river westward, is 228 miles. From that point there is a very favourahle divide going up to Fort Macleod on the lines I have heretofore described. The distance is exactly the same, 579, but it is a very inferior country for settlement. Hon. Mr. Drummond. — What sort of country is it? All the ranches and the cattlemen are up there? Mr. Smith. — No, this is another Kort Macleod. This is an arctic region alto- gether. It is a mineral country — nothing growing in it. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — Whore is that Fort Malceod you are speaking of now ? west of the mountains ? 80 ROUTES TO THE YUKOX. for both routes, Mr. Smith. — West of the mountaine. It is just to the west of the Pino Rivei Puse. It is oijrhty miles north of Fort George. The CiiAiRMAM. — And Fort M:icleo(l is an oLijective point whether you go by the Pino JRiver Puf-s or the other '•u.y ? Ml'. Smith. — Yes. You see wo not only wv.it a line between certain points, but we want 'o serve as much valuable eounf.j as wo can in the way. In that route you gel the Omenica Gold Mines. Abou' 100 miles noith of Fdmonton there is 8f»me good'^country, but after that, it is really not tit for settlement. Yellow Head P. ,ss is 3,730 feet higl), and it is simply a groove in the rnountaini. and the Eraser from Tote Jauno Cache is a deep groove through which we can make a railway. Tho Chairman.— What is the hoi^bt of the Pine River? Mr. Smith.— 1,000 feot less. The C;£AittMAN.— And the Kicking Horse? Mr. Smith.— 5,400. J think. The Chairman. — And lio you know what the height of tho Crow's Nest is ? Mr. Smith. — ft is a lower, \ think it is sometiiing over 4,000 feet. I am speaking from memory now. I can give you the distance by the Canadian Pacific Railway. There is another route by Ashcroft. Hon. Ml. Macdonald (B.C.) — From Ashcroft i.-^ towards the Yukon, what kind of route would that be ? Mr. Smith. — I will give you the distances now. First of all starting from Edmonton, of course the same point as the others, by railway to Calgary and then to Ashcrott, the two together are 629 miles. The distance from Rdmonton to Cal- gj ly is lltl miles and froti Calgary to Ashcroft is 438, making (>29 miles of railway made, and in operation, and then from Ashcroft, 1 have had to measure that from the map again, although we made a great many surveys that way from Rdmonton northward to Ashcroft, but raeasiiring by the compasses and going to the mouth of the Qucsnt lie River. They are working some mines on the Horse Fly Riverand from that to the mouth ot tho (Jiiesnelle. It is a difficult thitig to cross the river at the mouth of tho Quesnelle. It is so much below theleveof the plateau. We had repeated surveys there. Then from Ashcroft to the mouih of the Quesnelle I measured 21.5 miles by compasses, and thence following up the best route 1 could find a rather rougii route to Fort Macleod, the same ])oint that others come to, 187milo8. That makes a total of l,02'.> miles from Ivlmonton. The Chairman. — I think you should leave Fdmonton out of the question. Hon. Mr. Drummond.— Start from Ashcroft. Tho Chairman. Start from Calgary. It is not necessary to go up to Edmonton. Mr. .Smith. — You cannot make a fair comparison if you do not take them to the same point. The disliibuiing point is 300 miles further' to the oast near Saskatoon. The Chairman. — From Ashcroft is how much to Fort Maclood ? Mr. Smith. — It is 450 miles further than tho other. Tho total distance is 1,029 miles or 1,031 miles, and then the other lines across the Parsnip River, we made them 51 !• miles. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— On your way to Babine Lake or river from Ques- nolle, you would not go to Fort Macleod r Mr. Smith. — Yes, it is tho nearest way, and another thing, it would touch the Omenica gold mines. There i« nothing much on the other route. I could go furtiii.. to the south, and if wo went further to the south wo would touch on a very rich valley. We have got to Fort Maclood and there is 20(5 miles to bo added to that to roach the Babine. Hon. Mr. Maodonalu (B.C.)— Belter take it up to Glenora as well. Mr. Smith.— It is 450 miles longer that way than any of the other routes. Hon, Sir .Toun Carmnq. — Which way ? Mr. Smith. — By Ashcroft from Fdtnonton. Hon. Mr. MAi'DONAi.D (B.C.)— That is to (rlenora. Mr. Smith.— To the mouth of the Babine. Of course if we were taking it further back tho ditl'orwnce would decrease a good deal it wo were travelling 300 ■ I do not think that that I'lio would serve a portion to the east of I miles eastward. ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 81 1,029 made Ques- [ch the lurtiiii' ly rich Vo tllttt the Rocky Momitaiiis at all. Spoiiking of tho distances and latitudos does not irive anyone a thorough impresHion of the country unless ho has heen over it and seen a pnrt of it. From Ashcroft there has been a line for a railway surveyed up to Cariboo to BarUerville, and, I think, it is a very proper line. The' people connected with tiie country are working those mines, and whenever it will pay they will make a line up theie. The line would sei've very well, but I do not think as an engineer that any line from Ashci'oit should go north of the Fi'aser Kiver. It is a most difficult country and there is nothinu; beyond tho Fraser River to take a lino until you get to the Oinenica— but 1 will show you a line that they have surveyed. I have the plans here. Of course 1 keep track of all these things as an engineer. I Iiave nothing to do with it, but as an engineer I have t(^ keep posted in everylhirif,' tl. t is going on. Now, if you will look here at this map you will see what sort of country it is. They talk of the line from Ashcrofi — they cannot go from Ashcroft at all. The ground is too steep to get up. T!ii8 is the main line of the Canadian Pacific Railway coming up from the coast, and you will see the s'lrvey could not commence at Ashcroft, but commenced at 8tedly the best line in ever}- respect according to my judgment, and I have given it a great deal of thought. Tho Ceiairman. — Can ^-ou give mo the probable distance Pino River is from Fort St. John '! Mr. Smith.— I caimot tell exactly from the map, but it is under fifty miles south of Fort St. John. The CiiAiUMAX. — You have not been up to the Nelson River or theLiard River? -Mr. Smith.— I know nothing at all about the Liard River except from reports. Tho geological repi>rts show a great deal of grass country considerably back from Peace l!ivor, suitable for cattle, especially from Dunvegan. (Referring to bis own map). This colouring on this map shows pretty faiily the rich soil ; I have been comparing it since I was called upon U- give evidence hero and some people say that we could not define the character of tho land in this way, but generally speaking this shows the character of tho soil, and it stretches away around tho foot of the Rocky Moun- tains and intt) Manitoba and away north of the Peace River, and the soil gets lighter as you go southward. There is where the land tit for settlement ends. (121 deg. longitude.) North and west of Peace River and 122 meridian it is an arctic coun- try. What 1 have been saying is given by Macoun, tho botanist, and I find hia description of the country good. ■ing it Ig 300 last of 6— G 82 ROUTES TO THE YUKO^. EXTRACTS FROM liKPORTS OF THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY GOVKRNMKNT SURVEYS WHICH WERE UNDERTAKEN PRIOR TO 1881, WHEN THE I'RESENT COMPANY DEFLECTED THE LINE TO THE SOUTH— EDMONTON TO PEACE RIVER—SOUTHERN ROUTE, 1874, Pflf/e 48, C. Uoreizky. — " Fort Assiniboino on tlio Athabasca was reached after jjassiiig over iiiiR'tv-oiie milen df very fair country of ;in oarty character, land partly of ])rairie and limber, tlie hitler abunilantficun Lac hi Noiino to the Athabasca. .... Arrived at Lesser Shivo Lake, passing through an entirely weeded, swampy and, in phices, very hilly country, utterly useless for ag:''jultural purposes, and for a line of road cxcossively rouj^h." Page (iS, J. Macoun, Botanist. — " Between Edinonlon and Lac la Nouno,a distance of about forty-nine miles, the land is rolling, and at times hilly. . . . None of it is difficult, but thv! last half is much broken by hill and dale, swamp and lake. Between Lac la Noune and Pembina the country is more broken, the hills are steeper and more heavil}- wooded, antl tlie soil poorer. Bed of river about 100 yards wide, .... thence the land is comparatively level until you reach the ridges which border the Athal)asca. Tlio level of ihe country is about 300 teet above tho rive;- which (lows through a pretty wide valley. The Atliaiiasea is large being wider and deeper then the Saskatchewan. The fort (Assiniboine) is built on a terrace. . . . For some distance after jjassing the Athabasca the country is a series of sand hills, ridges and swamps." Smoky River to Diiit Lake (ahout sixty mile> di;e west of Edmonton on the LINE located by THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE CANADIAN PaCIPIC RaILWAY). 1874, Page 6S, H. A. F. iVfac^eoc?.- "Betwesn the Little Smoky River and the Athabasca there is a high ridge of hills extending in a north-easterly direction, parallel to the Athabasca These hills rise t(> a height of about 700 feet above Little Smoky River, and 000 feet above the Athabasca. There are, however, valleys more to the north, lower down Little Sm(;ky River. Tho stream flowing through the Eoswagon Lake and also Goose River, where favourable lines may bo found to Ibo Athaliasca. '•The Athabasca is a large rapid river in a deep valley from three to four miles wide at top and about half a mile in the bottom. . . . The crossing would bo near the mouth of Marsheaij River and would recjuirea bridge liOO feet opening, thirty feet high. Between the Athabasca and McLeod Rivers the country is verj- hil.'y and broken, the hills are 'JOO feet above the river, intervening valleys 8U0 to (JOO teet deep. From tho McLeoJ River to Dirt Lake part of the country is swampy, otherwise work would not be heavy. ase the Smoky River to the Athabasca. Geological Survey, 187!»-80, Page i>4li, G. M. Dawson.— " Bciwaau Smoky River and Sturgeon Lake the country muy be described as, in general, densely wooded, the forest being, for the most part, second growth, and composed of aspen, birch, spruce and Cottonwood, generally (d medium or small growth, considerable tracts are cohered, however, with heavy original spruce or aspen lorost. There are many little prairi«3 openings The lake is about 2,000 feet above sea level, there is good pasturage and a fine, partly oi)en country on the north-eastern border of the lake. Twenty- one miles south-east of this the Little Smoky River is reached, tlio intervening country in most part wooded. The river averages L'oO to 'JOO leet'wide where first touched, tho valley is about eighty feet be!(jw the plateau and further uj) it is a quarter of a mile to half a mile, in approaching tho Athabasca the country is evidently not only increasing in altitude, iiut decreasing in value. Tlie soil of the plateau becomes sandy in many places and swamps are more extensive. ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 88 Page 656.—" From this lake to uid bank of the Athabusca— twenty milos— the country is oxcoedingly difficull to traverse, the dead trees farming an almost im- paHfsablo windfall TheKurfiU'o irtdivorsifiod hy ridges which rise in some places nearly 2U0 feet above the iiitorvoiiing lioiiows, and still conliniios rising toward the Athabasca. At eight miles from the Athabasca the waterslied between this river and the Peace is crossed with an elevation of :^,3U0* feet above sea level. The soil is generally light, the silt often turning to actual sand." Peace River Pass. C.P.R. Survey, 1880, pages 43, 44, 4:), 4i:, 52 andiii].—H. J. Camhie—" The Parsnip and FinlayRivers are each ab()ut.")(l() feel wide at ihoir confluence, and below that point the stream is known as the L'cace Rivor and immediately enters the pa^s of that name. The pass is bounded ior about thirty milos by mountains rising 4,()U0 to 5,000 feet above the water, on each side le;iviiig a valley about half a mile wide between their bases, through which the river ((iOU to 800 foot wide) winds from t^ide to side, leaving benches first on one side then on the other, varying in height from twent}' to 100 feet. "The only ])oint whore the actual mountain slopes abut on the river is for thi-ee- quarters of a m le at the base of Moufit Selwyn, which hero are bold and rocky. This would require heavy excavation and a tunnel. " About five miles oast of Mount Selwyn a stream about sixty feet wide conies in from the south, and twelve miles farther another stream sixty feet wide, and the clear water about 120 feet wide from the same direction The low flats are timbered with Cottonwood, the hillsides and benches with spruce, poplar and birch. " At the clear water the width of the vallej' between the bases of the mountains on either side is about half a mile. From that point oa^tvvard to the head of the Rock}' Mountain portage, about forty miles, the valley widens out to about two milos between the bases and about six or seven miles between the summits of the moun- tains, whicli are there about 1.000 or 1,200 feet in height above the river. Five streams have to be crossed, the two largest of which are respectively 150 and fifty feet wide. "The climate and vegetation show a marked change to the eastward of the Clearwater, being much milder, and manj' of the flats have some small clumps of poplar copse, and a large proportion of prairie producing good grass and pea-vine. " Rocky Mocntain CANor. " Three days were spent in crossing the portage with the aid of horses borrowed from the Hudson Bay Post at Hudson Hope. " The portage, iiearly twelve milos in length, ru is nearly east and west, and was made for the jjurpose of avoiding the canon, through which the Peace River takes a semi-circular bond to the south, about twenty-rive miies in length. " In this distance the river runs generally through a gorge about 400 to 600 feet wide, with sandstone bluffs rising perpendicularly 100 to MOO feet on either side. The surrounding hills vary from 1,000 to 2,500 feet in height above the river and slope down to the precipice at the rate of one in two to one in five; they are also much broken by rarim», so that a line of railway would require many sharp curves, high bridges and long tunnels, and the erpense of construction would be excessive. "Hudson's Hope may bo said to bo on the eastern edize of the foot hills of the Rocky Mountains, extending in a soulh-oasterly oint on that r.mto, its altitmh- IjKint? 2,700 fe.-t ulmve sea lev.-l, an.l on the whole Ipi.gth from the Athabasca hmduife'it does not exceed 2,3»X) feet at any iKiint to tlie Pacific coast. 5— 6i 84 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. or valloy about 700 feet deep at first, incroasiiif,' to uj)\vttr(J8 of 000 feet in the neigh- bourhood of Smoky River. As far east as Pino River the valloy varies from about one and a half to three miles in width at the level of the plateau, and one-half to two miles in the bottom. "The river varies fi'om 000 to 1,200 feet in width, and wherever it washes the baho of the hilln extensive slides occur. Tliose of recent date, on the south side amount to an ai^'trregato of more than two miles besides a much greater extent of old ones. They olfer almost an insuperable obstacle to railway construction close to Peace River .... while the tributary ntrcains have cut such tleep lateral valleys that if a lino were taken up sutficiently high to i)ass behind the land slides, the cross- ing of each little l)ro()k would require a structuie of gigantic proportions. Fatjei^, — " From Pine River to Dunvogan the river varies from 800 to 1,500 feet wide and winds from side to side. The banks are of the same character as the last length described. Page 4f). — "The Peace Eiver at Smoky Kiver is 1,300 feet wide, its immediate valley 700 feet deep. Pine Eiver to the Summit of the Pass. Page 52. — "The general characteristics of the country from this point westward to Stewart Lake have been fully described by Mr. Hunter in your report ot LS78 (Appendix G) and as I am prepared to endorse that description, it seems unnecessary for me to touch on any but the most salient features, us seen from an enginetfring point of view. Pageba. — "The Pine River Pass is also a remarkable one anc'. although the elevation is greater than that by the Peace the works in passing thrcugh the moun- tain range would be lighter." Page 102. — Rev. D. M. Gordon — "Our party spent the month of August in examining portions of this extensive plateau in different directions from Dunvegan. The facilities for railway construction from Lesser Slave westward, and from a suitable crossing of Smoky River northward in the direction of Pine River Pass, as well as the character ol' that pass are indicated in the repoils that refer specially to those subjects. From Pino River eastward to Lessor Slave Lake and from Dunvegan nort!-. 'urd of Peace River about seventy miles to Battle Rivei- and southward to the 55th parallel the examiiuition was tolerably thorougli. Throughout the whole of the district traversed in these ex])lorations, with very few exceptions, the soil was found t(» beexcellent, with rich herbage, luxurientwild hay and pea-vine .... Some tracks lying north of Peace River appear ])eculiarly fertile, whilst the district known as the Grand Praii'ie lying between Smok}- River and Pine River from thirty-five to seventy miles south of JJunvegun is exceptionally good. Page 100. — "This route (Peace River) might he of service if a line were con- structed through the Omonica District to some northern terminus on the Pacific, such as Port Simpson. For any line, however, that would cross northern British Columbia south of the Omenica District by the Nation River, Babineand Skcena, to Port Simpson, or by anymore southerly route, the Pin<' River Pass, which is known to be practicable, would offer a shorter course than l>y the Peace River Pass." Page -^'ib.— Geological Survey, 1870-80, G. M. /JrtH-wn.— " The cluiracter of Pine River Pass in regard to railway construetion appears to be very favourable, but as Messrs. G. Hunter and II. J. Cambie have both given special attention to this point it is not necessary to enter into detail here. Page 076. — " The northern banks of Peace Uiver valley are also generally open and grassed "— noi-tb of Dunvegan to Battle River was examined and has already been described. C'oncte?«?i.— There appears to be plenty of feed for cattle and no difficulty of constructing a wagon road to the navigable head waters of Nelson River from a Soint near the old Fort St. John on Peace River. The distance scaled from the [Klondike Guide Map is about 170 miles. MARCOS SMITH. ROUTES TO THE VUKOX. 86 Ottawa, 5th May, 1898. Tho Committeo mot this day. Hon. Sir John CAaLiNO, acting Chairman. W. T. .Tennings, M. Inst. CM, of Toronto, appoarod before tho Committee and was examined by thorn, as follows; — The Chairman. — Have you a map before yoii, Mr. Jennings? Mr. Jknninos. — I have the map Dr. Dawson used when bi fore tho Committee and on which he has laid down three different routes extending from Edmonton to Fort Selkirk on the Yukon. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — Have you been through the country' around Edmonton and that way ? Mr. Jennings. — The onl}' parts of the country in tho neighbourhood of lOdmcnton which I have personally seen, are from I'Mmonton northward to Athabasca Landing, eastward from Edmonton to Fort Saskatchewan, from l<>Jmonton westward to St. Albert, and southward along the line of radway to Calgary. Hon. Mr. Perley. — How t'ai' have you been up the Stikine way ? Mr. Jenning.s. — 1 have been ip the Stikine Kivcr from tlit Pacific Ocean to the Tahltan River, a point some 10 or 12 miles beyond Telegraph Creek, or 16U miles from the sea, thence up the valley of the Tahltan Rivei- to its head, thence by the Koketsi to Kgnall's Mountain, and noi'tbward liy the Doo-de-don-too and Jvoshiii river valleys to the Nahlin valley, thence following the head waters of the Yukon northward to Teslin Lake. ]Ion. Mr. Perlev. — Then all this section of the country around the Peace River, and so on, you have not been over at all ? Mr. Jennings, — I know nothing of the Peace River country from personal observii'ions and only from public reports and conversations with gentlemen who have been over tho diBtrict, Hon, .Mr. .MacixiNalo ''B.C.) — What is your opinion of the road from Telegraph Creek and as far as y(»u wen' for a railway. Is it rough ? Mr. .Iennings, — From Telegraph Creek to Teslin I^ako, tho country is generally easy, the adverse features on ihe route being the two summits, severally situated, at the he;id of Tologranh Creek, and ailjoining the Stikine valley; tho Seconal in pass- ing over Agnail's Mountain from the Koketsi valley to that of tho l)oo-de-don-too River. Hon. Mr, Macoonai n (H/'j— What height do you ascend from Telegraph Creek going up, to tho highest point .'' Mr, Jennings — The Stikine River, at Telegraph Creek, is r)4H feet above sea level; Telegraph (!reek Pass is ;j,6r)0 feet above the sea; from that elevation a descent to '2,200 toot is made at the head of the Tahltan River. Again, anothei ascent to 3,700 feet is made at lOgnall's Mountain. After crossini; the i^^gnall divide, a descent of 200 feet occurs. Then with light undulating gnuiients, the r..ute lies in a nortberlj' direction to Lake Teslin, which is reached at an elevatior. oi about 2,450 feet above sea level. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Will you have to go that height in carrying a railway through ? ROUTES TO THE YUKON. agroe(i to do, Mr. JENNING9. -YoH, on the routo cefori-ed to, but it is not necoswiiry to use the Tolograph Crook E uhh, as u lino may bo eariied around by tbo Tahltan Uiver, with an oiovation ot Home 1,(!0(I foet at ibe coiithioiico of the Tahllan and Stiivine Jliyors. lIoM. Mr. Maciionalii (B.(7.) — And tluit corronpondH vory woil with tbo altitude at Teslin Lake? Mr. Jennings. — It(U)os; but the Hummil to tlio nortli of tbo Kokotsi valley, at E<'neirK Mountain, Ih unnvoidablo, oxcopt at a very considorablo ad'litional oxponHO, by oanyinir tbo line to tbo wohtward r)f itH pioscnt course, and down the valloy of the ShcHloy Ivivor to tho Nahlin Rivor. over a ropoTtod rou,i,'li district, or by a new routo up the Tooya valloy. lion. Mr. M.ACDiiNALu (B.C.) — I think contractors agreeing to do that work in a certain time, bad no idea what tbey woio agreeing to? Mr. .lENNiNds. — 1 know nothing beyond printed statements, as to what they ed to do, and they never conferred or consulted with me on the subject. The CiiAiB.MAN. — You measunul the distance from tbo Stikine'r' Mr. Jennings. — I diri. The distance from Fort Wrangol to Telegraph Creek on tho Stikine Eivor had been i)reviously measured and mapped. The railway routo was projected to commence at tbo Little Canon, distant !)(] miles from tho sea, and at tho head of easy water, a point reachable from the sea in one day. The Chairman. — llow far is that from Telegraph (,'reek, and what is tho state of the liver at that place? Mr. Jennings. — .Some tifty-six miles. Prom the Little Canon to Telegraph Creek, the fall in the rivor is much jfreater ])er mile, consequently the current is swifter. In my report, 1 suggested tbo Little CaSon as tho point for a railway to start from, on the a>sumption that it was desirable to roach the interior as rapidly and in as Hufo a manner as pos8ii)lo, thus estimating ono day's run from the sea to tho commencement of the railwaj' on the Stikine Rivei', and that 10 or 12 hours would be sutiicient time to cover the 2()8 miles of rail distance to Teslin Lake. Tho CiiAiHjiAN. — What would bo tho distance from Little Caiion to Todlin Lake ? Mr. Jennings. — 208 miles from the Little l^uion, to a point some 12 miles down Teslin Lake. Q. Why run any distance down the lake? — A. The south end of Teslin Lake is very contracted at two or three |ioints where shallow water with soft bottom exists. When I say shallow water, 1 mean it is shallow in comparison with the depth of tbo lake proper ; however, at the points ii\ question tho depth is ample for river steamers, being not less than four feet at low water in October last. The Ciiair.man. — Do I understaml you, Mr. .lonnings, that you would have a boat running 9(! miles from Wiangel and then start the railway from ther«? Mr. Jennings. — I suggested such a course, if deemed advisable, to make as speedy time as ]iossible, also that by constructing the section of 30 miles-silong the Stikine River, the bad water would be avoided. From the proposed river crossing below Glenora tbo ascent to Telegraph ('reek Summit should bo commenced, or the line might bo cirried around by the valley of the Tahltan Kiver, which enters the Stikine 12 miles above Telegraph Creek ; the latter course would mean an additional distance of some 8 miles (A'cr easier country; and with the advai\tago of lighter gral a standard gauge road. Hon. Mr. I'kri.ey. — Is that report printed, your report? Mr. .JKNMiNOS. — Yos, but it was not proofread or ai'ranged. It was just pi'inted ap|)aiently as the typewritten sheets iiad been put together by those who took them ajjart. Maeh report as sent in by me was separate and distinct, and 1 had not an o|)porl unity to pioof read or arrange liie mailer for the printei'. I am told that the hurry was due to a desire lo get the information into the hands of the public in a speedy manner. The CiiAiUMAN. — Could a broad gauge roail lie built as rapidly as a narrow gauge road. Mr, .Iknninos. — Not quite as rapidly ; principally due to the additional amount of grading, wliich. to do il as rapidly, would I'cquire a largei' force. lion. Mr. Maoixinam) (B.C.) — How did you go down from Teslin Lake to the ilootidiriciua liiver ? .Ml'. .iKNMNiiS. — Personally 1 only wei\t lo Teslin Luke: 1 sent two assistants down the Like to traverst^ it, and one ot them continued the survey and soundings (o the mouth of the Hootaiinqua oi' Teslin Jiiver, then returned to the coast by While Pass, wiiere I expected to meet him, but on reaching Teslin Lake, I found there was no means ot' iretiiiiii- from that |ioint over to Taku or Atlin Lake as 1 intended, consequent!}-, I had lo return by the Stikino, and when I reached Fort Wrangel on my return, 1 met the .Minister of the Interior, who thought the season was loo far advanced for me to satisfactorily examine Chilcoot and White Passes. The CiiAiKMA.N. — Was the country pretty well woodoti ihrough the pass you went ? Mr. .Ien.mnos. — The country is lightl}' wooded with small spruce, black pino and poplar on the Stikine slopes, and the boUom ot' the T<-legra|)h Creek Pass is open. In doscei\ding to the Tahltan ci'ossing and on the Koketsi, or head of the Tahltan Hiver iho route is principall}' over gravel benches, timbered with small })ine. s|)ruce and poplar. 'fhe CiiAiK.MAN. — Is it not a difficult country? Mr. .Iennmnos. — Not for railway construction. The CiiAiHMA.N. — Is the country beyond ojien? Mr. .Ienninos. — From I'.giuiU's .Mountain northw;nil tiie mountain is generall}' covered with nmss t'rom one to two teet in depth and partly limbered with small popular, sjjruce and pine. Hon. Mr. Peki.ey. — What do you tind underneath that moss, frost ? Mr. JEX.Ni\(iS.--(ienerally gravel, -.omewhat of a clayey and apparentlj- com- pact nature. I do not think il was t'rozen except perhaps in wet shady ulaces. Hon. Mr. McCalmt.m.— Would there bo any great difficulty in removing mi>SB ? The Chairman. — You would not build on top of it? shoiil and founl good! sides! meaii g the ItOUTES TO THE YUKON. 89 Itbe Mr. Jbnninob.— There would not ho any diffloiilty in remnring tho moHs which should not bo built upon or unrd in the construction oftliu roid bod. I[()ii. Mr. Primrose. — How far does tlu' mosM extend ? Mr. Jenninos— It oxtondu from Hunall's Mountain northward, way, 100 miles, and as far us 1 went, but I uiideiHland it continii^-H as tar northward as vegetation is found. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — Tho moss couM bo removed with Hcrapers ? Mr. jENNiNGS.~It Htruck me that tiie old fanhioned tiirm cultivator would be u good appliance for romoviuix the moss; by tearinf,^ it out and removing it to the sides of tho clearing wbero it could lie burned when dry. Tho Chairman.— After this .Mackenzie & Mann Company got toToslin Lake what means wore to be tnkeii to navigate tho lakes and rivers? Were the company going to build boats and going to carry froigtit and passengers througli Tosiin Lake ? Mr. Jennings. — I really know nothing at all about tlioir plans. Jlon. Mr. I'eri.ey. — That is apart from the investigation ? Mr. jENNiNdS. — I may mention that I understood a company has boon formed in Victoria for the puri)osc of building steamers to ply on Toslin Lake, and the HootuliiKiua or Toslin Rivor, if found naviL;ablt'. A number connected with that scheme wont up the Stikine River with mo. Thoy wore in charge of Capt. York. His outfit consisted of some sixteen men with horses and supplies, also sufficient iron and machinery for one stoamliout and ono l)arge ; also for a saw-mill and a])plianceH. This party bail reached I'jgnoH's mountain, some forty milos from Tolegrapli Creek, on their way northward when 1 ])assed south from Toslin Lake. I have no doubt that tbey made Toslin Lake in good season. The ("iiAiRMAN. — What was tho date when you mot those men ? Mr. Jenninos.— The 20lli October, l.Sl»7. Hon. Mr. Rerley. — Tbey have a steamboat built there, I suppose? Mr. Jenninos. — Captain Macdonald, who was placed in charge of the work at Toslin Lake, is an aide, active young fellow who will, f have nodoiibt, push through and have his work completed by the opeiung of navigation on, saj' tho 18lb of -May. Hon. Mr. .Mct'Ai.i.u.M. — Any snow around there? Mr. Jenninos. — Yes, some three or four slight snowfalls occurred while l was on the trail, the heaviest proliabiy being eight inches in depth, but strong "chinook" winds immodiateiy followed ilie snowstorms, causing the snow to molt rapidly and raising the temperature to about 56'^. The Chairman. — I suppose the Lake and rivers all the way are clear for naviga- tion, are tbey? Mr, Jennings.— According to Mr. St. Cyr's report to me there is no trouble whatever about the navigation of the Lake and Hootalinqua Eiver. At that late lime of the year (25'di October) when Toslin Lake was some ton or twelve feet below its highest level there was no place found in the channel of the Hootalinqua Rivor with loss than four toot of water. 1 boliovo it to be a good rivor. Hon. Mr. Macdonai.d (B.C.)— You have to got through tho Five Finger Rapids. is that a diiMcult tbinic ? Mr. Jennings.— The Five Finger Rapids are on tho Lewes or Yukon liiver. Hon. Mr. MAcnoNAr.n.— Are thov unsuimountabio for a steamboat ? Mr. Jennings.— From conversations with Mr. Ogilvioand Dr. Dawson and from their reports 1 would not call them at all difficult. Hon. Mr. Macdonai.d (B.C.)— There are some charters now to carry a tramway there to avoid the rapids. , . .. Tiio Chairman.— What is tho usual rate of fare on railroads similar to that built in a new country? Mr Jennings.— I think that fares extend up to ton cents per mdo.and J remem- ber in looking over tho Union and Northern Pacitic time tables that the local rates ran as high a's eight or ten cents, seemingly according to the districts. That was in the early days' when the roads wore just opened for traffic. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARG£T (MT-3) V ^ ^O ^J^.% A i Z <- fA 1.0 I.I Mi. lU 1^ 1^ 1^ 12.2 2.0 ■ 40 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 ■• 6" ► ^ V] W /: ^"^jS V -%> > .^"^1 Photegn?piiic Sciences Corporation \ <^ SJ \\ ^^ 6^ 'A 23 WEST MAIN STRKT WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) •72-4503 99 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. The Chairman.— I suppose in the early days ihoy woiiKl have to charge more than that? Mr. Jennings.— I think it would bo reawonable to chaige that Huin per mile, the difference would be 80 much in favour of ihe person using mil travel in preference to the trail. The Chaikman. — It might bo twenty cents a mile? Mr. Jenninos.— 1 should think there would be no necessity to charge so much, unless the travel tell off very greatly and it becaino a question ot making ends meet. TheCnAiRMAN.- Ani the lates per ton— what do they generally charge on a road like that ? Mr. Jennings. — The present rate is 6500 a ton from Telegraph Creek to Teslin Lake by mule. That was the rate in force in 1897. The actual cost of can-ying supplies would bo nine cents !i pound by mule from Telegraph Creek to Teslin Lake and return, a distance of 300 miles. Hon. Mr. Pehley. — That is to and fro? M r. Jennings. — Yes, going out loaded and returning light. This is a full figure. I have taken in every charge that 1 think might occur in such a business; the highest wages, higher than would maintain if u trail were opened and a good deal of packing done on it, an allowance for depreciation on the cost of the outfit, a considerable quantity of chopped feed a.id hay for the animals, their care over winter, &c., and in all it comes to nine cents a pound, or $180 per ton. The charge made lust year was twenty-five cents a pound or five hundred dollars per ton. The Chairman. — What would you think would bo a fair rate per ton from Glonora to Teslin Lake with u railway, supposing the railway was built? Mr. Jennings. — I would hardly like to give an expression of opinion. I think, if you will allow me to suggest, it would be better to get information regarding the charges made on other moun'iiin roads. The Chairman. — I thought you might know what was charged on other mountain roads. Mr. Jennin(J3. — I have no particular knowledge in that respect, but in my esti- mate of cost and operation, &c., and returns of an electric railway to Teslin Lake, I assumed 5 cents per mile for passengers and fifty dollars per ton for freight, simply as a pointer. lion. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — Around by Yukon, you can carry freight from Seattle to Dawson City for S'JOO a ton. Mr. Jenninos. — That would be 15 cents a pound lion. .Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Yes. It is about 3,000 miles, with only one handling, at St. .Michaels, whence it goes up the Yukon in stern wheel boats. Hon. Mr. Perley. — Would this lie an expensive way of getting into the Yukon now ? Mr. Jennings. — As it is at present, I think it would probably be fully as expen- sive as any other way, perhaps moio so. It would depend entirely on the charges made this year. If 8180 per ton by mule is taken as a basis from Telegraph Creek to Teslin Lake. Hon. Mr. Pekley. — That is the not cost? Mr. Jenninos.- No, it is after allowing depreciation and interest on outfit, but nothing more, not an additional profit over 15 per cent depreciation and interest on the cost. Hon. Mr. Pehley.— That would be really the actual cost, because a man would want that in any case. Mr. Jenninos.— And more. At 15 cents •< pound the rate would be $300 a ton, to which add say $20 a ton between Victoria and Telegraph Creek. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— The tariff lately 1 think is $40 to Wrangel. Mr. Jennings. — The charge lor some years has boon $10 per ton between Fort Wrangel and Telegraph Creek, but late in the autumn of last year it was doubled. I think the increase commenced with the transport of my outfit. irge more p mile, the »roferenco I 80 much, king ends argo on a : to Teslin ' cari-ying 38lin Lake ["ull figure, iness; the good deal le outfit, a care over ton. The i"H per ton. ton from . I think, arding the on other n my esti- in Lake, I ht, simply ■ight from only one itH. |he Yukon 118 expon- |o chai'gos iph Creek )utfit, but jiterest on ian would JOO a ton, figel. ^een Fort doubled. ROUTES TO THE YUKON. f| Hon. Mr. Pbrley.— How much is the charge per ton from Victoria, round by St. Michaels and up ihat way ? Answer by Mon. Mr. Mucdonald The Chairman.— You cannot say, if the railroad was finished, what would be a fair thing under all the cifCumsiancoH lo charge per ton ? Mr. Jenninos. — I should not like to e.xpross an opinion on that head in an off- hand way. Hud I anticipated such a question, I would have made inquiries. The Chairman. — I was thinking of an approximate estimate. Hon. Mr. Perley.— It is about 600 miles from Teslin Lake lo Dawson City. Mr. Jennings.— About SCO miles; of this total, it is about 200 miles from the south end of Teslin Lake to the mouth of the Hootulinqua Fiiver. Hon. Mr. Perley. — Is that a wide river or a narrow one? Mr. Jenninos.— It is from inO feet to half a mile in width. Hon. Mr. Perley. — A rapid river? Mr. Jenninos. — Not very rapid ; 4^ or 5 miles per hour is, I think, the swiftest, except in very short runs which reach 6 miles per hour. Hon. Mr. Perley. — Did not some one say it was 8 miles in some of the canons ? Hon. Mr. Primrose — I understood that. Mr. Jennings. — On the Hootalinqua? Hon. Mr. Perley. — Yes. Mr. Jennings. — I do not remember Mr. St. Cyr reporting such to be the casb; however, here is his report in which ho states that "only in a few places, and for very short distances was a velocity of (j miles recorded,' rnd there are no canons. The Chairman. — I supjmse that they have copies of your report in the Distribu- tion Office ? Mr. Jennings. — I have asked the Minister to suppress this edition (as it was published without arrangement or proof reading) and get out an edition j)ro- perly arranged. The matter will be exactly the same, but in proper order. For instifnce, the last clause of the railway report, regarding the cost of a railway from Telegraph Creek to Teslin Lake, is placed at the very end of the pamphlet, and under a table showing cost of supplier per man per day at Teslin Lake. Had I been accorded the customary privilege the whole report would have appeared in proper order. The Chairman. — What do you make the distance altogether from VVrangel via Glenora over the route of this railway and by Teslin Lake t<» Dawson City and by the River and Yukon? Have you measured the distances? Mr. Jennings — The distance from Fort Wrangel to the Little Cafiou is 96 miles; from the Little Cnfion to Teslin Lake 208 miles, from Teslin Lake to the mouth of the Hootalinqua, 200 miles. The Chairman — That is taking in Teslin Lake ? Mr. Jennings. — Yes. From the confluence of the Lewes and Teslin or Hoota- linqua River to Dawson Cit}- by tlio river is 3 (B.C.)— Have you been in the Kitamat district ? Mr. Jennings.— I have pasM>d the inlet leading to it but have not critically lined it. I hr ■ ad iho intoitnation obtained in connection with the (rovern- , aiHJ ,n li.oktd over the charts. Alice Arm and Observatory Inlet, east ol i'ort SimpHon, have been mentioned as likely points lor a terminus, but I doubt if anybody is now able to speak of either point withoertainty. Surveys were made by t'lo Government for the Canadian Pacific Railway routes from Port Simpson and , «keena River. The Nass was also examined. This infor- mation is to be found in the Chief Engineer's Reports for 1877 to 1880. Also see reports of Messrs. Gouvreau and Poudrier in Crown Lands Report. B.C.. for 1891 and 189J. Hon. Mr. Maodonald (B.C.)— Mr. Coste saw that the other day and he says that the land is very high there. Mr. Jennings.- The gentleman whom I think knows about this locality is Mr. McEvoy of the Geological Department, who made a survey there about, and doubt- less could give the Committee a considerable amount of information. I may add, in reference to routes from the coast that to meet a line from the south or east, the Stikine route would be a short and quick one for summer travel. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — It could be used most of the year, could it not — from April or May to about November ? Mr. Jennings. — From early in May to say the third week in October. I travelled down the Stikine by canoe on the 23rd, 24th and 25th of last October, and it was open for a few days latei. Fairly good water was found, possibly sufficient for a boat di-awing from two to two and a half feet. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — I s-ippose there was some ice then iu the river? Mr. Jennings. — Only a small quantity of tine ico in small masses like wet snow ; after a heavy front these masses uinto and, gathering in considerable quantities, eventually form across the river and, if the cold continues, close for the season. The Chairman. — Have yon any particular knowledge as to the Ashcroft route? Ml". Jennings. — I have been over the Ashcroft route to Soda Creek, so far as one can see the country from the Cariboo wagon road. The Chairman. — Would it bo difficult to build a road through that district? Mr. Jennings. — 1 do not consider it a difficult country for a road. The Chairman. — Taking from Edmonton, what route do you think would be the most feasible? Mr. Jennings. — Personally my belief in regard to that district has always been in favour of a route from Manitoba through the Saskatchewan valley to Edmonton, thence following the most suitable territory to the Yellow Head Pass and down the Eraser to or near the " big bend," thence over an easy country northwards to any desirable district, or to the Pacific coast at the most suitable point to be four say Port Simpson. Such a route will serve the country to either the north or south of it, northward to a connection with any of the routes described, or southward via the Columbia River valley; via the North Thompson to Kamloops or Ashcioft; by the Fraser, to Ashcroft; or by the Nazce and Chilcotin country to Bute Inlet. From these extensions, or main noith and south lines, through British Columbia, branch lines can be extended as circumstances demand. The Chairman. — There is an impression that the eastern road for opening up the agricultural and mineral country would be the best route (Route No. 1.) and taking that route that I am speaking of frona Edmonton to say Fort Selkirk, is the shortest and the easiest for constructing a railway. i-\ UOUTES TO THE YUKOX. Mr. Jenninos. — Fiom what I have been able to learn, it is not lilcely to be an oxponsivL' country for niiiway construction. It in womo 1,361 miles (includin,t< allowance for curvaturo) botwoon Kdmonton and Fort Selkirk. The Chairman. — Have you nny idea what a railway could be built for in that section of tho country, taking the general lie of the land ? Mr. .Jenninos. — 1 made an estiinato which may or may not be correct, based on tho bo.st information as obtained Irom Dr. DawHon, and covering route No. 1. and from this information, I Uiink a railway could bo built and equipped for $20,500 per mile. Tho Chairman. — That is taking tho whole country from Kdmonton? Mr. Jennings. — Yes, or a total of $28,000,000, assuming so many miles of light work, so many miles of medium, so many miles of heavy at various figures, which average $20,000 a milo\ind to which add, for rolling block, nay $500 a mile. These figures are on a cash basis and without profit to buildois. Tho Chairman. — What do you think it would cost to build a wagon road from that district ? Mr. .Tenninos. — From $1,000 to $1,200 per mile. I may say that I think con- tractors would not undertake to build u railroad along route No. 1, which I have just referred to, at say less than $25,000 a mile, but, taking the figures quoted, J mean that with reasonable rates on materials to tho point of commencement, it can be constructed for the amount per mile as mentioned. Nearly everything would have to come in by Kdmonton, unless very good rates could be obtained from the coast, but there would be no object in constructing a separate section in the neigh- borhood of Selkirk, as the Polly River would afford temporary access from that direction until the railway leached it from the coast. Tho Chairman. — You mean a standard gauge railway and heavy rails? Mr. Jennings. — Yes, with the Government section of rail 56 lbs. to the yard. The Chairman. — A road such as you estimated for, to Teslin Lake, what would that cost ? Mr. Jennings. — Practically the same and on the same construction basis. Tho Chairman — Not much ditference? Mr. Jennings. — It is generally a similar country. The Ciiaikman. — Supposing it was a narrow gauge of three feet or three feet six inches ? Mr. Jennings. — I did not estimate on a narrow gauge lino. If I remember rightly, I stated that it would cost about fifteen per cent less than a standard gauge; how- ever, I do not consider it advisable to build a narrow gauge from Edmonton to the Yukon. I think it wouhl be much better to continue the standard gauge. Tho Chairman. — You would prefer the standaru gauge on that route from tho Stikine to the Teslin Lake? Mr. Jennings. — I ])refer the standard gauge for any locality except ing; perhaps, short isolated lines to mines, or without a connection with a standard gauge system. At tho time the narrow gauge roads were advocated, many lines were of a gauge greater than i'S^" ; engines and rolling stock wore made in a more rigid manner than now. Again it was supposed lour foot and eight and a half gauge would not permit an engine or car to pass aiound a sharp curve, but that day has passed ; the construction of car tracks has been improved and there have been important changes in the construction of the locomotive engines. Tho Chairman.— What do you think a wagon road or packed trail through that country could be built for. Mr. Jennincs.— A wagon road could bo built for about $1,000 or $1,200 per mile, from the point where tho present road terminates. I do not suppose that the road from Edmonton to the Pea^e River cost such a sum but taking the average cost in Hritish Colvmbia for a good road, say about $1,500 per mile and deducting a difference in cost duo to smaller timber and other features, I conclude that the rale mentioned would bo a fair average. Hon. Mr. Perlet. — That road would not be in British Columbia? ROUTES TO THE YUKOX. 9b iernups, Byetom. a gauge manner ould not ed ; the aportant through ,200 per that the average ucting a the rate Mr. Jenninos.— A pcnu,,. would not be in British Columbia. I under- stand that there is a road now built from Edmonton wPHtward some 300 miles, over a very eiisy country. Trom its terminus on the Peace Eiver, the country becomes more undulating with deeper ravines, con«oquently, entailing heavier work. The Chairman. — That moans macadamized and gravelled? Hon. Mr. Macdonalk (B.C.)— Some gravel and some corduroy? The Chairman.— Perhaps you do not want to build a road so expensive as that ? Hon. Mr. Perley.— You cannot build a road through a country at much less than $3 a rod, that is about $1,0U0 a mile. The Chairman. — You would not want to go to such an expense if it was to be followed by a railway. Mr. Jennings. — If it were only a convenience road built to facilitate the cons- truction of a railway and only to be used for a month or so, it might be constructed for a small sum per mile. The Chairman. — What did Mr. Oliver give ? Hon. Mr. Perley.— 83U0 per mile. Mr. Jenninos. — S300 a mile would probably clear a road through the country immediately wcit of Edmonton and do some little ditching and brushing in low places. Hon. Mr. Peri-by. — Mr. Oliver said there would bo no ditching at all. Mr. Jenninos. — A pack trail would cost probably $1.50 i)er mile throughout. The prairie portion costing very litilo while that in the northern part of the country woulil cost $100 ti> $300 a mile, according to stability. The Chairman. — Of course, 26.5 miles of road from Edmonton to the Peace River. Mr. Oliver was under the impression that 250 miles of a road, and by utiliz- ing the rivers, that they could go to Fort Selkirk very easily by having scows to cross the rivers and boats to navigate the rivers between ditterent points. Mr. Jenninos. — As a temporary convenience, it is possible that such a mode of construction and operation might answer, but I hardly think that such a road would be used as a trunk line. The cost of freighting over such a length of road by wagon, the cost of horse feed along the route and the time consumed would, I fear, make it more expensive than by taking the Yukon direct ; at the same time, such a wagon road would afl'ord the means of reaching all the country on each side of it, and no doubt, if advanced gradually, would be of great benefit. The Chairman. — Only by the pack trail or wagon road ? Mr. Jenninos. — It would be a pack trail 1,360 miles in length. At the average rate of travel of a pack train per day, the mules loaded with 250 or 300 pounds, according to their capacity, it would be 100 days net or really four months in mak- ing the trip out and about three months in returning. In selecting a route for pack trails it is especially nece.xsary to keep on good ground and, as far as possible where feed may be conveniently obtained, otherwise such a trail would be impracticable. A pack animal could not carry enough feed to maintain itself on such a trip. Hon. Mr. Macdonalu (B.C.)^I suppose you would come to some parts of the road where there would bo no feed in the middle of the summer? Mr. Jenninq.s.— Sach is very likely to be the case. Hon. Mr. Macdovald (B.C.)— Some rocky patcS? Mb. Jennings. — I do not understand that there are any long, rooky or abrupt sections on this route. Hon. Mr. Maodonald (B.C.)— And thick timber? Mr. Jenninos. — Where there is timber as I understand Dr. Dawson, there are frequent openings or prairie spots where feed might be obtained. Dr. Dawson would much better bo able to give you definite information on that point. The Chaibman.— A railway for colonizing is Mr. Jennings.— A colonization railway or wagon road from Edmonton gene- rally on the ooivse marked No. 2, and extending to the Athabasca River near its confluence with Baptiste River (140 miles), thence to the Peace River near Dud- vegan, would be 300 miles in length. 1! 96 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. Hi' i % '1 A branch railway or wagon road commencing at the confluence of Athabasca and BuptiHte Rivers ami exteiuiing in a south-westerly direction to Yellow Head Pass would l>e 125 miles in loiigth. A further distance of 45 milos through the pass would afford acccHS to moderately navigable water on the upper Fraser River at Tote Jeune Cache, or a total of 465 milos of railway line or wagon road would do much ill opening up the country west of Edmonton by affording access to both the upper Krasor and upper Peace Rivern. The Chairman. — How would you cross the rivers? Mr. Jenni.ngs. — By scow ferry boats, very similar to those in use on the Sa-s- katchewan at Kdmonton and many other river cro.-Jsin;;rt if for wagon road— and by suitable bridges for railway use, W, T. Jbnninw's examination continued by the Hon. Mr. Boulton. Q. You understand in the development of that great mining region economy of transport in order to cheapen supplies is of the utmost importance ? A. I do. Q, That you cannot develope any trade of any consequence in that region unless that economy is supplied ? A. Precisely, Q. And that economy from eastern Canada can be best applied by direct rail- way communication to the interior of that country ? A. Fr(»m eastern Canada or the north-west country the development can be car- ried on by the construction of a railway from the most convenient point, presently at bklmonton. il. Now, I want to make a comparison of ditfe;'ont routes. One route we have in oxistenime to the mouth of the Dease River, and there was a party of Indians waylaid some of the Indians that belonged to lue at Fort lialkett and robbed them of everything they had; they had come down the Dease River. Well, I went up and had a brush with them; they had taken possession of my Indians wares and stuff. The Chairman. — You got your stuff back? Mr. Pambrun. — Didn't I? I went for the purpose of getting it. There were four men against one. The Chairman. — I suppose you took your furs there and then sent then down Mr. Pambrun. — Yes, by boat. . The Chairman. — To the Jjiard ? \ ' ' . Mr. Pamburn. — To Fort Simpson. The Chairman. — And then which way did they go? Mr. Pambrun — Right to the Athabasca and through to Prince Albert. The chain of mountains passes here at Fort Halkett; and this is all level country to the west of them. The reason I recommended that the trail should run to the Dease River was having had a brush with these Indians, I followed them up about ten miles inland ; they raised camp and struck into the woods and I made a detour around so fashion and took them behind in case they would waylay us if we followed on their trail. I certainly did take them by surpripe. It is a pretty high mountain there, and I juBt examined the country of the opposite side of the Dease River, to find out whether there was any large mountains in that direction ; I could find nothing. Now to where I was standing there I was travelling on snowshoes with this party of nine, and we cut right across country here and there ; it was hard frost in the spring laste It. ROVTKH TO THE YUKON. 113 of the year. Thiw was a luige hill whore I overcame, aa it wore, thewe IndianM, and from there I noticed Home other larj^e mountain, thick wooded mountain ; by examining the country upon this Hide ot the river it appeared to bo all level all the way to Francin Lake. 1 wan then within 100 or 160 milen of Francis Lake where overcame thoKo Indians, and I noticed all that side of the river wan level. I have had a great deal ofcorrenpondence Hinco I wrote that report of mine lant September from different partioH, from Nova Scotia, from Chicago and all dittoroiit places asking aboat the best route ; but I have always recommended to every one that aHsoon as they strike the Liard River they wore to crosH over to the east Hide all the way till they came to the Francis Lake, and then acroHs the mouth of the river, and travel upon the west side all the way till you come to that divide, and the old stumps of the old buildingN where wo uned to have our shanties would be legible now ; there uned to be two or three large buildings there ; and there is an elevation of I suppose 600 feet, ns you juHt go gradually it is juHt a levol country all the way down to the Polly Banks. There is a bedding of moss all through that part of the country. The Chairman. — The whole of that country is covorewn spare time at a cost of nothing excepting his own time; so the storehouses are left full of the miners' outfits, and they are put in separate piles and each man's outfit is marked. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — And they fancied it was food ? Dr. Wills. — Yes, and that the stores would not sell it. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — They were hungry? Dr. Wills. — They were not hungry, but bad not sufficient provisions to last them over. Wo hud to put guards on the stores. The old timers were at our back, they came to Captain Constantine and said, "All we want is a leader, and if you will be our leader we will stand by you," and then one of the stea mers arrived, it was late, the ice was running thickly, and we took charge of one of the steamers; the Alaska Commercial Company handed it over to us and said, " Here, if you will send these people down the river where there is food we will give you the steamer free of chai-ge," and I took charge of the transportation myself, as Captain Con- stantine was '. ery busy with Justice of the Peace cases at the barracks, and we persuaded about 150 of these chaps to go down to Fort Yukon where the provisions were. Hon. Sir John Cabling. — That is an American Fort? Dr. Wills. — Yes, and they went oflf down there, and I suppose you have heard about Captain Eae's experience with them there. He had to stand them off. They were going to raid the caches there. Captain Eae had to seize the caches in the name of the United States Government, and stand them off with guns. The Chairman. — How did the Mounted Police go in? Dr. Wills. — When I went in 1895 we sailed from Seattle about the 5th June, and went round through the Behring Sea to St. Michael's and took the steamer belonging to the North American Transportation Trading Company, and went on up as far as Fort Cudahy. Hon. Mr. Maodonald (B.C.) — How long did it take you ? Dr. Wills. — We wore about twenty days from St. Michael's up. It was a slow steamer, and we were heavily loaded. Hon. Mr. Maodonald (B.C.) — And eight days from Seattle? Dr. Wills. — We started too early ; we left on the 5th June, and we were four- teen days in the ice at Behring Sea, and it was the morning of the 3rd July we arrived at St. Michael's. Hon. Sir John Cahlinq.— It is about 1,800 miles from St. Michael's to Dawson. Dr. Wills. — Yes, it is commonly called 2,000 but is not more than 1,800. The Chairman. — And the navigation of the Yukon is all right ? Dr. Wills.— It is very good for the first trip. The only bad place is in the Yukon flats, and one place about thirty miles below Circle City. Hon. Mr.' Maodonald (B.C.)— What is the be^*t time for high water? Dr. Wills.— June is the best month. June and July are good water. In August it starts to fall off and in September it is low and they cannot bring up a full load in September. Hon. Mr. Maodonald (B.C.)— They have lots of mud and sand bars ? Dr. Wills. — Yes, in the flats, but from Circle City on — Hon. Mr. Maodonald (B.C.)— The flats are further down. Dr. Wills.— About the centre of tho river. The furthest north there, there is about 200 or 300 miles where the river is about twenty miles in width, al' cut up in sloughs, and there are one or two bad places there. Hon. Sir John Cabling.— They expect to have a large number of steamers run- ning up there this year, do they not ? ROUTES TO THE YUKON. U7 in the Dr. WiLiiS. — T wa? speaking to a gentleman from the coast and he knows posi- tively of sixty-three that intend going up this year. Hon. Sir John Carling.— All good sized boats ? Br. Wills. — Yes. The Chairman. — Going up the Yukon? Dr. Wills— Yes. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — If these steamers make two trips each, there will be lots of provibions up there? Dr. Wills.— Yes. Hon. Sir John Cabling. — They can make more than two. Dr. Wills. — They can make one sure trip with a full cargo and the next trip they always get thi-ough but not with a full cargo, and the third trip is mce or less uncertain, but they generally manage to get through the trip with a very small cargo. Hon. Sir John Cabling. — There is no danger of starvation up there if the boats all go up ? Dr. Wills. — If they are all running there is no danger whatever. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— The three trips would moan about two full cargoes ? Dr. Wills.— Yes. The Chairman. — ..iave you any opinion to offer with regard to the route into the Yukon from the const? Dr. Wills. — Well, as far as I am concerned, I am going in the old route the miners have always taken; that is by Dyea and the Chilcoot t'ass. There is only a few miles to walk. You can get over that pass in a day. I came over it in less than a day. Hon. Sir John Carling. — 1 understood you to say that there was only a portage of twenty miles ? Dr. Wills. — A little over twenty miles. A good part of that you can drive wiih a team of horses. Take from Dyea up to Cafion City; that is a new place just started this winter. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — How will those passes be in the summer time — p.'-etty wet? Dr. Wills. — Yes, but the Chilcoot has always been the best in summer. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — That is further ^oiith ? Dr. Wills. — That is the Dyea Pass. The Chairman, — Where is Canon City ? Dr. Wills. — That is just up the Dyea River. It is all level up there ; it is not until after you reach Sheep Camp that you have climbing to amount to anything at all. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— How far is it from Dyea? Dr. Wills. — It cannot be more than fifteen miles. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— South ot it ? Dr. Wills.— Sheep Camp is about fifteen miles north of Dyea. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Near Juneau ? Dr. Wills.— Juneau is 100 miles south of Dyea. There is Chilcoot and Chilcat. The Chilcat is further west. The Chilcat Pass is where the cattle go over. That takes j'ou on to the Dalton trail, the cattle trail. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— That is longer than the other way? Dr. Wills. — No, that is the shortest route. The Chairman. — But nobody has ever travelled it? Dr. Wills.— Oh, several hundreds of cattle came in. Mr. Bounds was the first man to bring cattle in. He brought them in, in the «ummer of 1896 and sold them in the winter of 1896-97. ' ^ _,,., Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Dil not cattle get in all the way from Ohil- cooten last summer ? That is a place just below Cariboo in British Columbia. Dr. Wills.— I do not think they ever reached there. U8 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. W.'i Hon. Mr. Maodonald (B.C.) — I was told they reached there and sold uncom- monly well. Dr. Wills. — Not into Dawson City, I do not think. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Did not get that far in ? Dr. Wills. — No, I do not thinic ko. There were several places on the trail going out where you could buy beef that failed to get it. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — At all events they got into the Yukon country, and some fellows who put in a little money made a pot of money out of it, it sold so well. Dr. Wills. — Beef was selling at a dollar a pound when 1 left. If you took a lai'ge quantity you could get it at eighty-five cents. At one time during the scare in the fall it was worth a dollar and a half. Hon. Sir John Cabling. — Is there good fishing up there ? Dr. Wills. — The fish do not amount to anything, in this way : we only get the king salmon for a couple of weeks in the year. Hon. Sir John Carling. — Are there any other fish? Dr. Wills. — Not in any amount, and it is hard to get anybody to occupy time catching fish. The Chairman. — Did any miners or travellers at all go in by the Teslin Lake route, or come out by it ? Dr. Wills. — I only met two men and that was at Major Walsh's camp, and they were in a most pitiable condition, and they told us they had come in by that route ; they had been three or four months. That was on the ice, in December. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — A great number of men are going in this year by the Stikine ? Dr. Wills. — Yes. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — When beef was a dollar a pound, how did other provisions sell at the same time ? Dr. Wills. — There is no place where the supply and demand regulates the price as it does in there. When articles are plenty our prices in there, taking all around average, four times your retail price out here; that is, the usual store price is always as much as four times as much as here. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B. C.) — How doe.s sugnr sell? Dr. Wills. — We paid twenty-five cents for the brown and thirty-five cents for the white. Hon, Mr. MoCallum. — 1 know that at Cariboo at one time everything used to be one dollar a pound, salt, sugar, &i . The Chairman. — The first year I went into the prairie country, where I live now, (Russell), we paid $6 a huiiured for flour, $1,50 a bushel for patotoes, twenty cents for sugar, and twenty-five cents for pork. Dr. Wills. — Flour was first $8, and this year it was raised to $12 a hundred. It was thought that $8 per hundred for flour was out of proportion to what they were selling other things at. That was the cut price that the North American Trading Company started in that country ; they cut flour down. The Chairman. — Competition did that for you? Dr. Wills— Yos, and it came up again to $'l2 per hundred; $12 per hundred is the usual price for flour. Hon. Sir John Carling. — Have you ever been up the river from Dawson City towards Fort Selkirk ? Dr. Wills. — I have been all the way up. Hon. Sir John Carling. — Is it navigable for boats ? Dr. Wills. — It is navigable for steamers of 400 ton capacity to Selkirk, Hon. Sir John Cabling.— Can they get up the Rink Rapids ? Dr. Wills.— The Rink Rapids are above Fort Selkirk; no steamer has been above that except a few miles ; some of the steamers have wintered at Selkirk ; there are some very good sloughs thei-e for wintering. Hon. Sir John Carling.— It is said the Pelly River is navigable for some con- siderable distance. to 111 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. m \ con- Dr. Wills. — No Bteamei- has been up. The Chairman. — No steamer has been up the Hootalinqua ? Dr. Wills. — No. Hon, Mr. Maodon\ld (B.C.)— You will get your supplies up there ? Dr. Wills. — If I was a stranger in that country I would have to take my sup- plies with me; but I made an arrangement when I came out that I would have my supplies for this year, that they would not consider me a newcomer. So when I go in I will go in light and cany just sufficient provisions for the trip down. The Chairman. — It is almost impossible to travel in the winter time supposing you were going in from Teslin Lake at the terminons of the proposed railway; it is about 53H miles to Dawson and it is pretty difficult travelling on the rivers? Dr. Wills. — It would bo impossible to travel, that is to take In supplies more than they would require simply on the trip. That is how it is that people say : Well you can come out ; why can we not go in? The reason simply is, that there is food at one end and no food at the other. It does not matter what animal, eithor reindeer or any other animal — I (\o not think any animal can carry more provisions than will feed itself and its master. When we arrived at Dyea we simply had enough for one meal tor ourselves, and we had not a pound left tor the dogs. The Chairman. — If you had stopping places every thirty miles provisions sup- plied enough, that difficulty would be overcome ? Dr. Wills. — If ihey had sufficient provisions in Dawson that you could buy there ; but you cannot freight along on the ice it is too rough. Hon. Mr. MoCallum. — What is the best time of year to start for that country? Dr. Wills. — If a man is going in with a large outfit he should start in the winter time and get his food over the passes while travelling is good, then simply wait till the ice breaks and float down on the first water. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — If you were going in light, what do you think is the best route ? Dr. Wills. — I a^n going in a few days; although the trail would bo a good deal softer than if I had gone a month ago, yet 1 would have had to wait up there for the ice to break up and I preferred to camp down here. Hon. Sir John Carling. — If the river was frozen you would be able to go on the river? Dr. Wills. — I came out on the ice all the way. After you get from the foot of Lake Labarge then the river is very rough indeed. The river freezes below first, and it piles and jambs higher than this room a good deal, and to out a roadway for horses or anything of that sort is simply impossible. To cut a roadway on that ice would cost millions of dollars. The Chairman. — Cannot you travel on the banks ? Dr. Wills.— We do travel as near the banks as we can, but the banks are all shelving. When the ice first forms there is often a little level ice along the shores, but when the water drops, the ice falls and leaves it slanting along the banks, and I do not know of any more tiresome travelling than traveling or walking on sloping ice. It is most all crt banks, one or two places there is a short portage whore the river makes u horseshoe bend, where they will climb over the hills. TheCHAiRMAN.— It is all hilly? . . Dr. Wills.— Yes, nearly all the banks there are cut banks, and it is impossible to get up on them. Hon. Sir John Carling.— You mean the water has cut them ? Dr. Wills.- Yes, they are more or less precipitous. The Chairman.— What is the height of the plateau above from the river? Dr. Wills.— After you get above Fort Selkirk you got regular steps almost, different plateaus running say from 30 or 40 feet to several hundred feet. Below the Pelly it is a different country entirely. Up above Pelly there you are in the region as Dr. Dawson expl.ained of the great Cord^leren Glacier ; but below that to Yukon River it i-i more of the cailon style ; it is generally a steep bluff on this side and goes across with a steep bluff on the other sido. The Chairman.— What you mean is a rock ? 120 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. Wills.— Yes, great bluffs of rook. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Any salmon in the Yukon ? Dr. Wills.— Yes, they are not very good, but the salmon having travelled that distance up to Dawson they are spent. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Is there any trout in the Pelly and those other rivers ? , . ^ , Dr. Wills.— They say so, but I have not seen any. 1 have seen whitefash up there, the same as in Manitoba. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.)— Many of them ? Dr. Wills.- No; the fish now-a-days is not a factor in the food supply at all. Hon Sir John Cahling.— That is on account of the trouble in catching them, the people would nooner catch gold. Dr. Wills. — Yos. Hon. Mr, Macdonald (B.C.)— You cannot fish in the winter ? Dr. Wills.— No. The Chairman.— So that any provisions that are ordered for the winter under existing conditions have all to be delivered theie before the ice forms. Di-. Wills.— Yes ; provisionw could be had if they reached Fort Selkirk by rail. The dog teams could carry sufficient in case of necessity in winter, as Dawson ia only 173 miles from Fort Selkirk. I know that freighting has been done there and I have met teamsters who have gone up there and brought a load of stuff down. With a few stopping places between Fort Selkirk and Dawson traffic could be kept up all winter. The Chairman. — If we could send in some horses by pack trail up the Liard to the headwaters of the Pelly ? can feed be put up there for horses ? Dr. Wills. — Feed can be put up at diiferent hay lands along. The Chairman. — There are hay lands? Dr. Wills. — Yes, but the trouble is to get anyone to look after them. The Chairman. — If a man could take a couple of teams of horses up there — Dr. Wills. — Every summer we have quite a number of horses in Dawson and Forty Mile, but they slay thorn and feed them to the dogs in winter. There are one or two teams left in Dawnon where the men were fortunate enough to get suffi- cient hay, and bought up what little food was brought in, but the rest of the horses had to be shot. The Chairman. — But there is plenty of hay if you could only put it up? Dr. Wills. — It in difficult to get it; 3'ou would probably have to go for a long distance up the river from Dawson, and strike little marshes here anil thereandthen build a raft and rafl it down the river; and then it is very risky landing your raft; manyaiaft has f^one by Dawson not being able to make a landing. It has to be handled very skillfully. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — The current is very strong is it? Dr. Wills. — Yes, there is an eddy in front of Dawson, but it requires skill to Und a laft in the eddy. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — How deep does the ice form there on the water in the winter? Dr. Wills. — From four to six feet. The first winter I was in there, we had it extremely cold, the average temperature in the month of January was 47 below, and the ice in the water hole which we cut to dip the water out was a little over seven feet. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — And in those rivers where the water is so shallow, they talk about two feet; it mu8t freeze to the bottom '( Dr. Wills. — The Yukon is not a shallow liver; the Yukon in front of Forty Mile and at the boundary line runs from 20 to 25 feet in depth, that is at low water in winter time in the centre. Hon. Sir John Carlinq. — Have any of the miners been able to get through the frost in their mining? Dr. Wills. — No. There was a well sank at Sixty-Mile 90 feet and they did not get through the frost. It is likely the frost goes down probably a couple of hundred feet the same as it does in the same latitudes in Siberia. ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 121 -The fuel that the miners use is wood altogether. did not hundred Hon. Sir John Carlino.— Then the water you get is from the river ? Dr. Wills. — Yes, the water in the Yukon is very clear in the wintertime but very muddy in the summertime. Hon. Sir John Caelinq. Dr. Wills.— Yes. Hon. Sir John Cabling.— For melting the frost in the mines. Dr. Wills.— Yes. Hon. Sir John Cabling.— And how much a oord is that wood. Dr. Wills. — It is worth at the mines $25 a cord. Hon. Mr. MoCallum. — Is the wood soft or hard ? Dr. Wills.— It is nearly all spruce, very little poplar. The Chairman. — Is it a good place for a centre at Fort Selkirk ? Dr. Wills. — I say there is no place for a centre unless there is going to be some population there, because the place is perfectly inaccesable for several months hi the year, and if a man has busincKS at the Capital he cannot go there certain months of the year, and there would be nobody living there, only government ofScials. Hon. Sir John Cabling. — What about railway, of course a railway would make it accessible. The Chairman. — Is not mining going to be developed there? Dr. Wills. — Mining camps will always be in the most convenient places, and in the most immediate vicinity to the mines. The Chairman. — But the Klondike is not the only place where we hope mining will be developed. Dr. Wills. — But wo have to deal with conditions as they are, we don't know of any gold in paying quantities around Selkirk, and even if there was, people are going to go to richer places just the t^ame as they did at Forty-mile and Fort Cudahy , which at one time was very well inhabited but now is almost entirely deserted. We cut hay in streets of Forty-mile last year. There is scarcely a house inhabited there now. That is the nearest place to the mines on Miller or Glacier Creeks. The miners follow the richest finds. Hon. Mr. Maodonald (B.C.) — I suppose ther« is gold to be found at Fort Cudahy. Yiv. Wills. — There are mines in the vicinity, that is the old mining camp, but it is not so rich as the Klondike and the people left it. It may be worked again. The Chairman. — As soon as you get railway communication and cheaper labour can go in and out, then conditions will change. Dr. Wills. — They will to a certain extent. They hud very good mines in 'Jircle City down in Alaska but as soon as the Klondyke mines were found the people moved in there. Hon. Mr. Maodonald (B.C.) — Where should the militia be? Dr. Wills. — Up where the centre of population would he, that is at Dawson, to be of any use at all. Take this month for instance, the month of May, and it is f)ractically impossible to go to Selkirk; during this time of the year the I'iver is iable to break every day and the ice is flooded in many places. Then again in the fall, take the month of October whero the river is running full of ice and it does not unite until the first week in November, and is not fit to travel on till the end of November, and it is probably four months of the year in which it would be almost impossible to reach the Capital if you had it at Selkirk. It would be a long hard trip to go there; it takes about 8 days to make that 173 miles because in summer yon would have to pole up. The Chairman. — The alternative would be to build a railway to the point where the largest amount of trade is developed. - Dr. Wills. — A railroad to i^^rt Selkirk would answer all purposes, because there would be good navigation, and a few good steamei-s could make trips quickly and could carry an enormous amount of freight. A steamer from Fort Selkirk to Dawson might make two round trips a week and carry four hundred tons a trip. ROUTES TO THE YUKON. The Chairman. — In the same way it could go up to the head waters of the Hootalinqua? Dr. Wills. — Yes, but look at the great lenj^th of time it would take. It would take two weeks to make a round trip from Tcslin Lake, and it would be a very small steamer and u very powerful one. ^ doubt if any sleamer larger than 75 tons could travel the Hootalinqua. That wou d be 75 tons in two weeks, as against 1,600 tons in two weeks from Selkirk for one steamer; and your season of navigation would be somewhat shorter from Teslin, because the lakes don't break oui till after the Yukon is open. The lakes are the last to break up. They won't break up till the last of this month; but the Yukon will break up in a few days now, so that there is half the month of May. Hon. Sir John Carlino. — You think the vessels that go up the Yukon from Behring Sea could go up to Fort Selkirk, Dr. Wills. — Yes I know, because they ran there. Capt. Constantino has been up on the steamers as far as Selkirk. There is good navigation as far as Selkirk, but none of those steamers could attempt to go farther than that, that is on the Yukon and when you go beyond that you are either on the Lewes or the Pelly Eivei and the two together form a good navigation. The Chairman. — The Eink and Five Finger Eapids are a barrier. Dr. Wills. — The Eink Eapids and the Five Fingers. I do not see how they could get up the Fve Fingers unless they warp up. If you will look at Ogilvie's map you will see the Lewes Eiver is a very crooked stream, it seems to be a continuation of horseshoe bend. The Chairman. — Selkirk is on the Lewes ? Dr. Wills. — It is just at the mouth. Fort Selkirk " ' not on the Lewes, because it is more on the Yukon, where the buildings are. Hon, Sir John Carling. — Have you known any men that have gone from Edmonton through the country there up as far as Dawson? Dr. Wills. — Nobody that has ever started from Edmonton has reached that country yet. A party started over a year ago and nothing has been heard of them. We heard they were down as far as the mouth of the Mackenzie and they were going in by the mouth of the Porcupine. That is an enormous trip. Hon. Sir John Carling. — There was quite a number left Edmonton this spring to go up. Dr. Wills. — Mr. Ogilvie went that way up the Porcupine and portaged over to the Peel Eiver and then fi-om the Peel to the Mackenzie and up. He was over a year making the trip. The Chairman. — You might tell us a little about the mining. That is a very interesting subject. Are all the accounts that come out from there reliable or are they simply boom accounts? Dr. Wills. — Some of them are boom accounts there is no doubt about it. There is certainly, however, some very rich mines there indeed, but the whole country is not that way by any means. Take the whole class of mining and it is really low grade gravel. These rich spots like we get on the Eldorado that Mr. Ogilvie speaks of give one a false idea of the country entirely, the mining there is the slowest and most expensive mining in any part of the world on account of the frost. It is not the labour of men it is the work of fires; and wood at $25 a cord the mines must be very rich in order to pay. Very often a man will start in on very good pay, and after he is gone a short distance he finds that his claim is a little bit spotted, and the first thing be knows he has run off the good pay. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — How much ground would a cord of wood thaw, how many yards of earth ? Dr. Wills. — It would thaw about three or four yards. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — Then you must have your wood so that it will burn, you have to go out and get it ready; ycu cannot cut it and burn it right away, there is sap in it ? Dr. Wills. — Yes, but we have to have a certain amount of dry wood and we use a certain amount of green wood. We do not want it to burn away all at once. I in the T I but I rich the w quarts there by ace H the m D them. T winter ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 123 . how barn, , there ,nd we unoe. It is the Blow continuous fire and not the quick fire with al) the flame that does the work. The CuAiBMAN. — Why don't you adopt the blast? Dr. Wills. — Then vou are liable to have your roof caved in. The Chairman. — Aro you undermining? Dr. WiLLH. — Yen, it \t< all undeigrouud. People have the idea that we start in and burn it from the surface. These fires are in great chambers underneath the ground and the roof is composed of frozen muck, and you don't want to blow that up. Then, with regard to blasting, theio is another difl3cuity. Our powder costs a dollar and a half a pound, and I don't suppose there are 200 pounds in the country because the steamers are not allowerl to bring any quantity and carry passengers. The same way they cannot bring gasoline and carry passengers. Hon. Mr. MoCallum. — You cannot thaw the ground with steam of course? Dr. Wills. — No, the steam would condense and you would not be able to work underground. The Chairman. — If you could get your supplies down to reasonable price Dr. Wills. — 1 know, as a matter of fact, when the stores have sufficient food in there, a man's outfit does not amount to very much. A man can get a very good outfit that will last him a whole year for four or tive hundred dollars, Five hundred dollars would amount to only fifty days' wages. Hon. Mr. MoCallum. — How do you stand the cold weather ? Is not it very severe ? Dr. Wills. — I do not think it is as severe on a fellow as it is in Winnipeg, becanse we do not get the wind there, and on the gulches, no matter how the wind would be blowing on the Yukon, up on the gulches there is never a breath of air. The Chairman. — The miners are very happy in there? Dr. Wills. — Yes, some of them. Hon. Mr. MoCallum. — I would think that the fuel used to thaw the ground would cost a great deal and would be a great deal of trouble ? Dr. Wills. — It is slow and expensive, and although there are lots of sugges- tions that there will be important changes in mining, still we know that sort of mining has been going on in Siberia for many years, and many eminent engineers have attempted new ideas, but they have always to go back to the old thawing by fires. The Chairman. — It is a question of labour. Dr. Wills. — And the work of fires. Hon. Mr. MoCallum. — You must have water to wash it. Where do you get that? Dr. Willis. — In summer time we wash and in winter time wo take the gravel out, and that is piled in a dump, hoisted in buckets and damped, and in summer time we wash it. Hon. Mr. MoCallum, — Where do you got the water to wash it? Dr. Willis. — In the creek. These are all in gulches. There are always creeks in the gulches. The Chairman. — Have you any idea of quartz mining up there ? Dr. Wills. — Yes, there are a great number of quartz veins have been located, but I have not seen anything very rich, although I have seen some wonderfully rich specimens of quartz, but it is very difficult to prospect for quartz there, because the whole country is covered with moss, and though we can find croppings of quartz, it would mean a tremendous amount of stripping to find a vein, and I think there will be some very rich quartz found there eventually, but they will be found by accident. Hon Mr. MoCallum. — It is all covered, you cannot see it; you have to strip the moss away. Dr. Wills. — You will find croppings that roll down, but it is hard to trace them. The Chairman. — Have you any idea how much gold will come out from the winter's work ? IM ROUTES TO THE YUKON. Dr. Wilis. — From the reports I have heard lately, I think there will be in the neighbourhood of ten millions — close on to that; it wont all come out from there, it will mostly remain in there for re-invostinent. lion. Mr. McCallum. — But they will take that much from the ground? Dr. Wills. — Yes. The Chaibman — How do you mean, not come out? Dr. Wills. — It will come out eventually. If I had 8100,000 I would not ship it out here. 1 would ro-invcst it. The Cbaibman, — There are jj^ood openings to buy if you understand it? Dr. Wills. — If you understand it. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — You think there is ; it is a matter of speculation? Dr. Wills. — Yes, it is a matter of speculation. A man wants to be prepared to lose his money. Hop. Mr. McCallum. — He might make a million and mif ht lose his hundred thousand ? Dr. Wills. — Yes. If a man is willing to take his chances and gamble on it, *nd if he loses r-ay nothing. The Chairman. — If there is 810,000,000 comes out, the government will get a million. Dr. Wills. — If they collect it. The Chairman. — I would like to know whether the government are going to collect that million. Dr. Wills. — If thoy would make somebody else in the country pay that — as it is these companies pay no taxes, they get a large portion of the money; the saloon keepers pay no taxes; the gamblers pay no taxes, and all the parasites, so to speak, pay no taxes, and it is the miner who has to stand everything. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — And the people who do not pay the taxes give you the trouble, 1 sup|)0se ? Dr. Wills. — The people that cause Ihe trouble pay no taxes. The Chairman. — And the industrious miner has to foot it all ? Dr. Wills —Yes. The Chairman. — That is th j way they are running things at present, and I am trying to persuade some of these gentlemen to change that. Dr. WiLL>. — The minors feel it is a hardship, and that causes a good deal of hard feelings. The miners are not averse to paying taxes at all, but the miners always says they like a square deal. The Chairman. — If the conditions wore reduced as to cost of supplies and every- thing of that kind, then it would become proHtablo to handle this low grade gravel? Dr. Wills. — Yes, if you could reduce the labour, and if you got in tools and machinery and everything. The Chairman. — And do evervthing on a more scientific scale. Dr. Wills.— Yes. The Chairman. — And an enormous area in that country would be made valuable? Dr. Wills. — Yes, we know of creeks with five and ten dollar diggings, which cannot be touched now, but which eventually, if worked on a large scale will produce a large quantity of gold, in fact, it is the large area.^ of low pay that produce more than these rich spots like the Eldorado. They will produce more in the long run, Hon. Mr. McCallum. — Y'ou have to take out a large quantity and work it well ? Dr. Wills. — Y'es, it has got to be handled well and in large quantities. The Chairman. — Have 3'ou come across coal up there? Dr. Wills. — Yes, there is coal there. The Chairman. — How far ? Dr. Wills. — About eight and three-quarter miles up the Coal Creek. That is four miles below Fort Cudahy. The Chairman. — Where is that? Dr. Wills. — It is at the mouth of the Forty-mile Creek, fifty-three miles below Dawson. ' It. ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 12ft the Hon. Mr. MoCallum.— Have you been in the coal mines ? Dr. WibLS. — YeH. Hon. Mr. MoCallum.— What quality of coal is it ? Dr. Wills. — Lignite. Hon. Mr. MoCallum. — That is a good quality of coal ? Dr. Wills.— In order to got at that mine you have to have tramway for eight and three-quarter miles to get to the Yukon. Hon. Mr. McCALLUM.—We will get that by-and-bve if there is enough coal there ? Dr. Wills.— Yes. The Chairman.— There .ir. a large number of American miners there. Most of them are Americans ? Dr. Wills. — Yes, but most of them are what wo would call Castle Garden Americans. A large number of them are Scandinavians ; they make good citizens, quiet chaps, good hard workers, suitable for the country. Although they have lived in the States, ihey have landed at Castle Garden and taken out their naturali- zation papers, I think there are more Canadians than true-born Americans, but they are mostly foreigners. The Chairman. — But they make good citizens ? Dr. Wills.- Yes, very good, straight follows, hard workers. Those Swedes and Norwegians are splendid fellows in that country, and a man owning a claim will hire those men in preference every time, because they know what work is, and they will do a good day's work. Of course, up there with the miners, the national- ity does not cut much figure. Hon. Mr. MoCallum. — A miner is a miner. Dr. Wills. — Yes, and it makes no difforence. We got a bad element in there. They came up late in the fall in these sweepings from the Sound, and there were certainly a number of toughs came in there. The Chairman. — And they seemed to complain that they could not form a municipality ? Dr. Wills. — Not the toughs. Those men were educated chap ., out they wanted to run things a bit, and when they saw they could not do it, they simply backed out and never said a thing more about it, when they saw they could not take a hand in it, not being British subjects. The Chairman. — Do not you think it would be advisable to give those people a vote? Supposing a man comes and locates in a town or place like Dawson City, and although he is not a Canadian citizen, do you not think it would be a wise thing to give him a vote for municipal matters without being obliged to take out his papers ? Dr. Wills. — If he is a bona fide miner or property owner there. Hon. Mr. Macdonald (B.C.) — You could not make a particular regulation for those people ? The Chairman. — There are a number of people who go in there and locate in Dawron City or will form a municipality somewhere else ; a man has not a vote in the election of a member of parliament, but he may not want to change his nationality. At the same time he is interested in improving the place he is in. What I was asking was whether it was desirable to give that man a vote, so that no trouble would arise such as arose in the Transvaal ; there they would not give the UitlanJers votes until they had complied with the conditions. That is what led to the trouble. They taxed them but would not allow them to have votes. It is simply to avoid trouble of that kind or dissatisfaction that I am asking the question. Dr. Wills. — Of course, my idea is I think that most of them would become British subjects. There are a few, of course, that would still remain American sub- jects, just the same as there are a number of us who go to the United States will remain British subjects, but I think the majority, if it were necessary and we wanted them to take a hand in the thing, the miner would not object at all to becoming a British subject. When Mr. Livernash was mentioned as one of the delegates coming out here, I was the only one that spoke of him being an American, and I said, would it 1^ ROUTES TO THE YUKON. not be better if there were three Canadians and no Amerioans coming out, and they simply pooh poohed the matter and Haid I waH taking? a very narrow view of the thing, and it waH altogothei- likely that Mr. LivernaHh'ri nationality would never be questioned, and he would not be anked at all. The idea of nationality never entered their huadu at all. Hon. Mr. MoCallum. — But it did here. i)r. VVii-Ls. — Yes. I was the only one in the whole place that over mentioned it, 80 that it shows you that as to the nationality there is no such feeling in there at all. The Chairman. — To make a political point they will take up anything? Dr. Wills. — There is a certain rough clement in the way of gamblers who come in, and those chaps require looking after. Hon. Mr. fiBRNisa. — Would it not bo better to refuse ihem a vote even in muni- cipal matters, so aw to induce them to become Hi-itish subjects? Dr. Wills. — These Norwegians and Swedes would probably just as soon be British subjects as American subjects, and they form a considerable i umber of our population and are very good citizens now. The Chairman. — Over the boundary line in Alaska there is an enormous terri- tory, and is it likely to develop well ? Dr. Wills. — Just as likely as the Klondike. The latest reports from there say that Minook Creek is turning out just as good as Bonanzo or Eldorado. The Chairman. — So that if we were to build a railway up there we would afford facilities fo.' a very large tract of country, .ind concentrate a large amount of traffic. Dr. Wills. — Yes, because it would supply not only British Yukon but would supply Alaska Yukon. There is an expedition started out from Seattle in which I was told Mr. Bartnole is connected, and there are some forty men sent up with an outfit of mules to find a road which will be all American starting from some place near Mount St. Elias. The Chairman, — Copper Eiver ? Dr. Wills. — I do not think it will be Copper River, but in that part of the country so as to tap the Yukon somewhere in the neighbourhood of Circle City, be- tween Circle City and the boundary line, because when they g,->t to Circle City there is splendid navigation from there up. It is below Circle City the troublesome part of the Yukon is. The Chairman. — The only thing is that those harbours going west are not so accessible, I fancy, in the winter time. Dr. Wills. — Oh, yes; they would be accessible. , All that coast is quite warm along there. Hon. Mr. McDonald (P.B.I.) — Is there mu(ih of a population between Dawson City and Port Yukon along the river? Dr. Wills.— There is "Circle City" and "Fort Cudahy" and "Forty Mile." There are a very few Indians in Circle City. Circle City was a place with about 1,500 but since th« Klondike has been discovered it has windled down to about 300. There were about 1,000 of them come up over the ice to the Klondike. The Chairman. — Is it your opinion that if this railroad was built to Teslin Lake as compared with the route coming out over the Chilcoot or White Pass, that that route would be used very much in winter time? Dr. Wills. — The route could not be used in winter time to Teslin Lake. The Chairman. — It could not. Dr. Wills, — It would not be, because you would be going miles out of your way. It is just as easy to walk to Dyea as the head of Teslin Lake, and when you get to Dyea you get an ocean steamer all the year round, and when you get to the head of Teslin Lake in winter time you have 150 miles to go and then you have ice again on the Stikine, and it is impossible to land from steamers as thej' found this winter at the foot of the ice on the Stikine River, because the conditions of the climate are very gradual. You come from the ocean and you go up the Stikine a little way, and then you will find skimmy ice, and that gets a little thicker, and a steamer gets stack. It gets thick enough to stop the steamer and not thick enough to land on, ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 127 I thoy af the ver be itered tinned 1 there come 1 muni- oon be r of our 19 terri- loro 8ay d afford f traffic. ,t would which I with an ne place rt of the City, be- ty there )me part re not bo ,te warna I Dawson ty Mile." ith about bout 300. iplin Lake that that ce. rour way. row. get to the head I ice again lie winter imate are little way, lamer gets o land on, and the consequence is thoy could not land any stuff or anything until— in fact, I do not know that ihey have got any landed yet. I do not know of anybody getting up the Stikine yet. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — It is no use in winter? Dr. Wills. — It is no use in winter lime. Of course thoy could land lower down and build a wagon road round for a way until they would get up to solid ice, but then you would be in United States territory, and a wagon road in United Slates territory is not navigation. The Chairman. — And of course it in a very arduous trip? Dr. Wills.— Yes, it moans walking. It meann hard travelling of 150 miles more than is actually necessary, and men are not going to do that simply for patriotic purpoHCB. A man is going to take the shortest route. Hon. Mr. MoCallum.— He is going to take the shortest route to iret there ? Dr. Wills. -Yes. The Chairman. — Don't you think that country is worth a railroad ? Dr. Wills. — Yes, but that railroad should have a port of good navigation on the Yukon as its terminus. The Chairman. — On coming from the east as a direct through line? Dr. Wills. — Of course that Edmonton route would be a very good route indeed, provided it ran into Selkirk. I think Selkirk should bo the torrainus. There is a terminus that is available practically at ail times of the year, because it is only 173 miles from Dawson, and if the necessity arose to freight stulf dowei in winter time they could always do it sufficiently to prevent starvation, or if they could not freight it down, it is not so much a trip if necessity compels it for them to travel to it. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — Do you know what extent of coal there is ? Dr. Wills. — There is a seam in sight, right on the cut sloping bank, and then there is also another seam, and between ihem there is a wedge of clay. I think they will eventually run together. That coal is exposed in spots at different places, showing that it is a perfect blanket right along there over a quarter of a mile. Each of these seams are four feet in chickness. Mr. Ogilvie estimated there was about 300,000 tons of coal in sight. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — And you would have to build a tramway before you could get to the river ? Dr. Wills. — It is eight miles up the Coal Creek. Then the same seam of coal runs through the country and cut* into Twelve Mile Creek, and coal has been found there; and the same way it came down, and is found again on a little creek below Coal Creek, a little nearer to the Yukon. It will eventually have to be opened, because the fuel along the rivers — won't get exhausted exactly — but the handy fuel will. The steamers now find it rather difficult to get wood bandy, and if there is a large number of steamers, then it is going to use up all the wood that can be got at. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — And make it still harder for the miner? Dr. Wills. — The trouble in regard to using coal in the mines is that you would have to freight your coal to the mines, and the freighting is going to cost you so much per pound in the winter time according to the distance, cost you from five to fifty cents a pound. To many creeks it would be perfectly impossible to take coal because the coal would cost so much that it would oe too expensive. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — Still you have it there ? Dr. Wills.- Yes. Hon. Mr. McCallum. — When you got to the river what depth of water is there in Coal River ? Dr. Wills.— It is just a little stream. It is a regular torrent in Spring, lots of water in it, but it is a succession of rapids. The Chairman.— Dr. Wills, I must say on behalf of the Committee we thank you very much for the interesting information which you have given us. Dr. Wills. — I am glad to tell anything I can about this country which is so greatly misunderstood. The Committee adjourned. no U TBS TO THU YUKON. Ottawa, 16th Muy, 1898. Tbo Coratnitteo met thin day. The Honourable Mr. Boclton, Chairman. Col. Lakb, Quarter-Master General appeared betbio the Committee ftnd was ezaminod. By the Chairman : — Q. We have a Committee to inquire into the .oii to the Yukon, to maice some inquiry about the new country which is opcMied up and creating such a furore. You are the Quarter-Master General ? — A. I am. Q. You are supposed to lieep yourself posted upon the topography of the country ? — A. Yos, so far as I can. Q. The routes and everything of that kind ? — A. Yos. Q. I thought probably as you had charge of sending up our Contingent force you would be able to give us a little information as to what route they were taking? — A. They are going from Vancouver, via the Stikine River (tianshipping their stores at Fort Wrangel) as fur as Glenora, or, hhould they find it advisable when they get there, to Telegraph Creek. From there they are going to proceed through to Teslin Lake, along the route of the projected railway, and on Teslin Lake they will build boats for the conveyance of themselves and their stores and pass down the Lake, down the Hootalinqua River and the L(3we8 River to Fort Selkirk. Present orders are that, if they are met there by either Major Walsh or a person deputed by him, they will take his orders as to where they tix thoir permanent station. But in default of that — and probably even if ho meets them — the permanent station will be fixed at Fort Selkirk. There they are to build barracks and bouse themselves for the winter, keeping in view the fact that very possibly that place may be made the eventual centre for the government of that part of the country. It will be more or less a fortified post, and will include Government buildings, bank offices and so on. Q. And that work they are going to do themselves ? — A. That work they are going to do themselves. They are transported by Canadian Pacific Navigation Company's steamer from Vancouver to Glenora, and from there the Hudson Bay Company and they themselves nre j6 oing to pack the stores across from Glenora to Teslin Lake. Q. Will they walk aerobe— -march across? — A. Yes. Of course it entirely depends upon what they find thoro. As you all know, all the information we have about the whole of these routes is, in most cases, one man information, not based upon a number of reports so that you can get an average clear statement of what you are to expect, but mostly on what one man has seen in his journey across. Therefore they have to be prepared for a great many eventualities; but that is the general outline of what they propose. They will w^ork to a certain extent side by side with the pack transport whijh the Hudson Bay Company are providing. Q. You mean to say they will march with about fifty pounds on their backs? — A. About seventy pounds. Q. How many days do you calculate it will take them ? — A. The orders to the officer commanding give him agreatdeal of latitude. Ishould state that the seventy pounds includes their own clothing as well. It is not a net burden of seventy pounds ; it is a gross burden. But if he finds he can more expeditiously and conveniently pass through with lighter loads and a smaller party to start the work on the Lake, he will do it. He is to be guided entirely by the circumstances he finds on arrival. at yei me eta: JiOUTES TO THa YUKON. 129 -A. Q. DooH tho IIiidHon Bay Company find waf,'ons or anytliin^ of that kind? — A. No. I undorHland Ihoio iH no trail Hi tor a waj^on at all at present. One Im boin^j opened up, and they may tind tho tii-Mt lliirly, tiiirty-tivo or forty mlloH ready. Q. So that it Ih purely a pack trail? — A. Purely pack trail. (I. And do you know anythinj^ about wliothor that Haw-mill i^ot started or not? —A. On TeHlib Lake ? Q. Yea? — A. There are Htatemonts that it has been. Wo have also had Htat-.i. mentH that it in not. It iw Hcarcoly posHiblo to toll which to believe. We have heard HtatomontH to that etlect. Q. So that thoy really may have to wliip-saw ?— A. There is no doubt a eaw- mill on tho Lake, but in wliat ntato of complotioi: or what it iw able to do, no one can Hay at the preseut moment. The machinery is beint' packed across and it may have reached tliore. Q. You do not know that it haH reached there? — A. No. Wo have got all the tooln. Wo are [)reparod to whip-saw lumber and all that. Q. And !iow many boats do you calculato to take? — A. Well, according to the size of the timber they have to deal with. It is a oomi)aralivoly easy matter to calculato tho displacement you want in water for a certain number of pounds weight, and they will bo guided b}' that, and thoy will also be guided to a certain extent by other circumstances, possibly they may tind it a good thing to cut down a good deal of lumber and make rafts, and they may transport a good deal of their stufi'on rafts. Q. Have you any accurate information at all as to what the class of navigation is f'om the south part of Teslin Lake to the Hootalinqua? — A. We have got the report of tho Government Civil Engineer, Mr. Jennings, and Mr. St. Cyr, who was acting under him. You have no doubt got the blue books. I had also a long con- versation with Mr. Jennings himself and took notes of that conversation and Mr. St. Cyr is going with tho party ; so that we have all the information he derived from his journey, and we have also with us a civil engineer who has had a great deal to do with railway engineering work in British Columbia lately, Mr. Carry, and he is to a groat extent, acting as pionner, for the party. Wo havo also artificers, two or three practiced men from here, ni n who huvo been in the habit of working in the lumber camps and building boats, and we have a considerable number of men who wore either artificers by trade before thoy enlisted or are handy men and good at that kind of work. Q. You are taking tents, I suppose? — A. Wo are taking tents. We hardly propose to use them much before wo get to Fort Selkirk. We have a certain number of canvas sheets which we are using for packing purposes as far as Glonora, after which thoy will serve as rain sheltors. Q. Tentos d'abri ? — A.. Yes. Instead of unpacking tho tents each day and putting them up, we propose to use these canvas co/ers to a great extent simply as shelters. When the oxpcndition was first ordered it was early in March, and the first orders given, were to be ready to start at very short notice. That was on the earlier information regarding the state of the trail and tho probabilities of getting through, but it soon became apparent from futher reports that it was hardly possible to get through without been able to rely to some extent on finding forage along the trail, and therefore it was decided- to wait until there was some chance of getting forage for the animals on at any rate or part of tho journey. Q. This is a pioneer force, I suppose, as much for assisting to open up the country as anything else ? — A. To a very groat extent no doubt. They are primarily of course, as a support to the police in the maintenance of order. They will have their own head quarters, practically take no part in tho managomentof the country, unless called upon as the reserve force ; but they will, no doubt, be used a great deal for pioneer work in opening up the country. Q. And how long are the men enlisted for ? — A. They are all liable to servo for at least two years from this date. You are aware that militia enlistment is a three years enlistment, but every man who had loss than two years of his original enlist- ment still to run was called upon to re-enlist for a fresh terra of three years before starting, so that no man has loss than two years still to serve. 5—9 ROUTES TO THE YUKON. Q. So that, at the end of two years they can take their discharge or remaiD up there, just as they please ? — A. Yes, on the expiration of their enlistment. Q. Do you know what the strength of the Police force is up there — A. I under- stand it is in the neighborhood of 200. Q. What supplies have yoa sent with the men through to TesJin Lake? — A. With the men we are sending six months supply of food and a fairly complete supply of clothing, including winter clothing. We cannot make sure of any stores — absol- utely sure— of their arriving by the other route. Wo have taken all precautions, but we are not absolutely certain. And so the force has six months supply of food, in the shape of preserved meat^, and so on, and a supply of winter clothing; at the same time we got the amount of stores to be transported by that route down to the lowest safe limit. Q. Do you expect the Hudson Bay Company will supply you with enough mules to make one tiip, or will you have to make more ? — A. Trip after trip. I do not expect the last of the force will get away from Teslin Lako for three months, June, July and August — that is the whole force ; but of course the artificers, the boat builders, the barrack builders, will get on ahead. We shall use all our efforts first to push through tiie boat builders to Teslin Lake and supply them with stores, and having got our boats built, we shall then use our efforts to push on the pioneer party again down the river to Selkirk, to start the building of barracks. Our stores amount really, at present, to the neighbourhood of 100 ions, but they use semething like half a ton a day on the way, to feed the force, so you will see it will rapidly diminish,aud what they will take on from Teslin Lake is notlikely to exceed seventy to eighty tons. Q. And that is going to be pretty hard work for them ? — A. I think it is. I think they are prepared for it. Q. If they are three months on the journey ? — A. Yes. Q. Well, then, the other stores — what scores did you send round by the other way? — A. There is a reserve supply, going round by the Yukon, of food to the extent of nearly 200 tons — in fact quite 200 tons and about fifty tons of other supplies such as clothing, ammunition, and various stores for building purposes and things of that kind. We have rather more than we really want there, but we were informed by the Interior Department that it was likely that there would be a large popula- tion there wanting supplies in the winter and there was no harm in our filling up whatever tonnage wo could get, with food, and we did so accordingly. Q. And that went round by St. Michael's? — A. That is dus to be delivered either at Seattle the day after to-morrow, or at Vancouver about a week's time — a little less, perhaps, and I do not quite know how it is divided between the two ports. It dependt' upon the contractors and the arrangements which have been made be- tween the contractors, the railway companies and the shipping company. It is divided between the two ports, and the agreement is that it shall be sent up the Yukon by the first steamers that start up the river; and it shall be delivered at Fort Selkirk not later than the end of August. Q. And what companies have you sent it up by? — A. The Boston and Alaska Transportation Company. Q. Over the Grand Trunk to Seattle, a portion of it ? — A. A portion of it oy that route and a larger portion by the Canadian Pacific Railway. I do not know whether they will deliver all that they are taking by the Canadian Pacific Railwa^ at Vancouver, or not, or part in Seattle. It is going in two steamers, the "Brix^^ii' ' and the " Lanoada," Q Where were these supplies purchased? — A. From Bate & Son, Ottawa, and from the Hudson Bay Company. Q. Is there a Canadian company running to St. Michael's ? — A. I Vclieve so, yes. Q. But no Canadian company running on the river ? — A. Not that I am aware of. Q. This was the lowest cost of transportation ? — A. Yes; but officially I am not COi^cerned really with the tenders. The civil branch of the department make !il ' -t, a party did, one of the first exploring p^arties who discovered gok ■ lh;<. district — somewhere in the early seventies, I think — pass thx'ough by that rout. The Chairman. — Have you made any arrange'ment about postal communica- tion ? — A. I made inquiry about that; I understand the police have that matter in hand, and that they pic pose to arrange that. Q. Will they make any stopping places between Teslin Lake aud Telegraph Creek? — A. Probably; I think they v;iU probably establish posts of their own on their own account just to help themselves with the packing across. Of course, 200 men can pack a good deal if they do it systematically, and they will do a certain amount of road making too. Q. It will be a very valuable force in the opening out of that country. I would only like to see it supported from the interior by another detachment of fifty men on the Peace River. — A. It would be a good thing to open the country up by degrees. The Committee then adjourned. Mr. Frank Oliver, M. P. was re-examined by the Chairman of the Commit a as follows : Q. Do you know anything about the Mounted Police party that wero up through this country ? — A. Yes. Q. What route did they follow. — A. They took the route from Edmonton by way of the mouth of McLeod Rivor, Sturgeon Lake, Grand Prairie, Spirit River, Fort St. John on the Peace River. From P'ort St. John they went north westerly up Halfway River, a branch of Peace River, and crossed the Rocky Monntains at the head of Halfway River then turning south-wcdtward to Fort Graham ., Findlay River, where they wintered. My recommendation to the department u »!•■ 'u-.t from Fort St. John the mounted police should proceed north-westerly to Nel' ■ • iJver, follow that River down the Liard up to Frances Lake and then cross the J>ivide to Pelly River, that being the coarse that was taken by the dilferent Government exploring part'os in that country, aud also the loute trivolicd by the Hudson Bay Company in cbtablishing and in carrying up a'^'ii ti* i» tt Fort Selkirk. It was therefore known to be a practicable routo. T do no' .^iio' why the party crossed Sai hu ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 133 the moantains at the bead of Halfway Eiver, unless it were on instructions from Ottawa to attempt to make an exploration of a direct line from Fort St. John to Telegraph Creek. The principal reason of the failure of the party to get through was their taking this course, which on account of the much deeper snowfall occur- ring west than east of the mountains and on account of the more heavily timbered nature of the country rendered travelling in winter impossible, whereas travelling on the route sketched east of the mountains to the Liard Eiver would have been entirely practic^able as was proven by the trip of a party led by one Jack Graham who left St. John for the Liard Elver by way of the Nelson last summer, and after reaching the Liard returned to St. John w the month of June, using pack horses both ways, and bringing all his horses but one through in good condition. Graham was travelling from the Liard to Fort St. John at the name time that Moody's party were travelling from St. John to Fort Graham, showing that if the Fort Graham route was impracticable, that by the Nelson and Liard was not. The failure of Moody's party only occurred when thoy left the suggested pack trail route beyond Peace Eiver, and crossed to the west of the mountains in the apparent effort to reach Telegraph Creek instead of keeping east of the mountains with a view of reaching Pelly Eiver by way of the Liard. Had they followed the course originally suggested, there is no reason to believe that they would have failed to make the trip. Q. Have you seen the diary of Mr, Moodj'^'s party published. — A. Yes, that was on the way to Fort St. John. Q. No, but I mean to Fort Graham. — A. No I have not. He published a diary from Edmonton to Fort St. John. That appears in the police report, but there is nothing from St. John to Fort Graham. SUPPLBMENTAEY TO THE EVIDENCE OP MAECUS SMITH. 538 Bane Street, Ottawa, 6th May, 1898. Col. BOULTON, Chairman of Committee re Edmonton and Yukon Eout© for Eailway or Wagon Eoad. Sir, — ^The last question I was asked by the Committee was : What is the distance from the nearest point on the projected line of railway by the Pine Eiver Pass to Fort St. John on Peace Eiver ? Ans. — Under fifty miles (probably forty miles). This brought out a point of vantage for the line to Pelly Eiver which I had not fully considered. 1. Assuming that the Trans-Canadian Eailway Company could make such arrangoments with the Government that the construction of that division of their line from Prince Albert westwards should be commenced as soon as possible and ir, two years afterwards completed as far as that point convenient for a branch to St. John. That would be a trunk line common for two routes. One crossing the Eocky Mountains by the Pine Eiver Pass, thence westward to join the proposed Government lino from a point on the Pacific coast (probably by the Nass Eiver up to near its source), thence on to Telegraph Creek and Teslin Lake, to Hcrve the mines on the watershed to the Pacific. The line up to a point opposite Fort St. John would traverse a rich, agricultural district and bring the products of the territories of Saskatchewan and alberta (centreing in Prince Albert and Edmonton) several hundred miles nearer the Yukon gold fields than they are now. m ROUTES TO THE YUKON. 2. The Korthern line starting from the eaid point near St. John by the most practicable route to the head watera of the Felly Kiver to serve the district on the watershed of the Mackenzie babiu. It is difficult to estimate distances, even approximately by scaling from the map when the line of the route has not been laid down from surveys or explorations — but as it will have to pass through the Bocky Mountains by the Liard and thence follow other river valleys leading to the Pelly Eiver, the line will be much longer than commonly estimated. Still the distance to the head of the Felly Biver as com- pared with a parallel point on the other route (which would be near the middle of Teslin Lake) would be fully 100 miles shorter than the latter. It is, however, evident : 1. That the districts on both these watersheds cannot be properly or economi- cally served by one line from St. John westward. The line by the Fine Biver crosses the southern part of the American gold district and is much wanted. 2. That a wagon road or cart trail to the head of the Nelson Biver would afford great facilities at email cost for prospecting the northern district in the Mackenz: > basin, and if gold were found in profitable quantities a railway could be construoiv ' ^*'"y point required aud the route to Pelly Biver decided. 3. All ^formation acquired this far by the inquiry of the Committee appears to n > \' great value both to arrive at present needs and preparing for future developments. Yours most respectfully, MABCUS SMITH.