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 1 2 3 
 
••oocofr nsouiTioN iist CHAn 
 
 (ANSI 010 ISO TEST CHART No. 2) 
 
 APPLIED IM^GE In. 
 
 1653 Eoil Mom SIr.el 
 
 (^16) «I-0300-Phon. "^ 
 
 (716) 288 - 5989 - To, 
 
ONTARIO'S RESOURCES AND ADYANGENENf 
 
 TH'S SPLENDID RESULTS OF THE 
 FORWARD POLICY OF THE LIBERAL 
 GOVERNMENT - 
 
 A SPEECH 
 
 IlKLIVKItKII BY 
 
 JAMES' CONMEE, M.P.P. 
 
 FOR ALGOMA WEST 
 
 DEUVERID IN THE^PROVINaAL LEGISLATURE 
 ON FEBRUARY 6th, J902 
 
 PRESS OF THE HUNTER, ROSE CO.. LIMITED TORONTO 
 
SPEECH OF 
 
 JAMES CONMEE, M.P.P. 
 
 DEUVERED IN THE ONTARIO LEGISLATURE 
 ON FEBRUARY 6th, J90J 
 
 Mr. CoNMEE said : Mr. Speaker, the debate which is before 
 this House ha.s taken a very wide range, and I suppose it will 
 continue to do so. I may say it is not my intention to detain 
 the House at any great length on the Budget, as m view of the 
 resolution which has been moved by my hon. fnend from 
 East Simcoe, (Mr. Miscampbell), the course of this debate may be 
 somewhat changed. However, in view of the purport of that 
 resolution, which hints, though in a vague way, at the under- 
 taking of additional expenditures on the part of the Government, 
 the finances of the Province become an important factor in con- 
 sidering it. 
 
 The Flnanceg of the ProTlnce. 
 Now, sir, I wish to say this in regard to our finances : that it 
 appears to me we should cease having contentions in this House 
 as to the correctness of our financial statement. The Budget as 
 now brought down is so eminently fair in the public interests, and 
 follows on the lines of the contentions put forw; ?d a few years 
 ago by hon. gentlemen opposite to such an extent that all dispu- 
 tations should cease in respect to it. It is not in the interests 
 01 this Province that a factious dispute should continue from 
 year to year. There is no good purpose to be served by such a 
 course. I fully expected, when I saw the financial statement of 
 the year on my desk, that my hon. friend from S. Lanark, 
 (Col. Matheson) would be entirely satisfied with it, because, if T 
 remember rightly, one of his claims in the past was that we 
 should not say "surplus," that was a word which was pro- 
 hibited on that aide of the House ; that if we said "assets there 
 would be an agrtement. It seems, however, I was mistaken, for 
 no sooner was it changed from "surplus" to "assets" than we find 
 the same old arguments repeated. 
 
OrlglB of the Fandii held by the DonlnloB for the Province 
 
 and which becaae Debti due by the Dominion to 
 
 Ontario at Confederation. 
 
 I might remind the House of the ui-igin of the funds in din- 
 putu. 1 take it that Hon. gentlemen do not dispute the figures 
 of the financial statement, other than the four so-called "trust 
 funds " First, take the Upper Canada Grammar School Fund. 
 That was created before Confederation by setting aside certain 
 lands in the Province for the maintenance of Grammar Schools. 
 It was settled, and 8312,769 was apportioned to Ontario when 
 we joined Quebec in the old Province of Upper Canada. Then 
 at Confederation that sum due to this Fund was one of the debts 
 assumed by the Dominion as payable to Ontt.rio, in respect of 
 which they have since paid interest at the rate of five per cent, 
 per annum. The .same facts obtain with regard to the other 
 funds. The Common Sch. ol Fund was created in much the 
 same woy previous .3 Confederation by setting aside certain lands 
 of (he Crown, (he proceeds of which were payable to this fund, and 
 was one of the debts which the Dominion undertook to pay to the 
 Province at Confederation. The Building Fund is a debt also 
 payable by the Dominion ; it, too, was created previous to Con- 
 federation by a Conservative Government, and by direct taxa- 
 tion — hon. gentlemen opposite or their predecessors, having thus 
 the honor of being the founders of direct ta.xation in this Province. 
 (Hear, hear.) A direct tax of six pence in the hundred pounds 
 was imposed upon all taxable property in the Province to create 
 a fund for the erectijn of asylums and other public buildings. 
 The monies due this fund were one of the debts the Dominion 
 undertook to pay and is included in pai-agraph 5 of the report of 
 the arbitrators in 1870-1 as one of the debts due by the Dominion 
 to this Province ; and so with the Land Improvement Fund. It 
 was merely taken out of the Public School Fund, one quarter of 
 which was taken for Imilding p.irposes. Now, these moneys 
 were created from the resources of Ontario, and have always 
 been and are still an asset of Ontario ; these funds are as much 
 an asset as are any other funds forming part of the consolidated 
 revenue. At Confederation the Dominion assumed liabilities of 
 the several Provinces to the extent of 802,500,000 ; besides, over 
 and above that sum, the British North America Act provides 
 "thatcertain adjustments should take place as between the Provin 
 ces of Ontario and Quebec, and also as between these Provinces 
 and the Dominion." Among the debts which the Dominion thus 
 assumed and undertook to pay was the debt of the old Province 
 of Canada to this Grammar School Kund, to tho amount of 
 S312,769. and also the amounts over and above that sum due 
 to the other funds I have mentioned. They have beei called 
 
trust funds and may in a sense be so called, but they are never- 
 theless debts due by the Dominion Government to the Province 
 which they are bound to (lay, and in respect to which, in fact they 
 have paid a considerable amount It will not be disputed that a 
 few vears ago a payment of half a million dollars was made by 
 the Dominion Government to lie Province ci account oi 
 moneys for which they are indebted to Ontario. Now, sir, as 
 previously .stated, the British North America Act provide.^ "that 
 arbitrators should adjust the accounts as between the Dominion 
 and the Province," and in the proceedings Mr. Kt:*er, the then 
 Conservative Finance Minister of the Dominion, prepared in 
 1893 and submitted to the arbitrators, who were sitting to adju.st 
 these very accounts, a statement which is an exhibit in the refer- 
 ence, and is marked with the letter "Z," and tiled in the proceed- 
 ings. In it waL given a statement of the debts of the old Pro- 
 vince of Cana<la assumed bj' the Dominion, and in those debts 
 are the several fund' to which I have referred, including this 
 Grammar .School Fund. As I have stated, the Briti.sh North 
 Amorici Act provided that arbitrators should be appointed to ad- 
 just the que\ tion as to which Province was entitled to these assets. 
 In the Sessional Papers 1870-71 (Ontario) a report of the arbitra- 
 tors is found, and they declare, with reference to this Grammar 
 School fund, " that the moneys thereby payable, including the 
 neveral investments in respect of the same, or any of them, are, 
 shall be, and the aar/ie are hereby declared to be the property oj 
 and to belong to, the Province of Ontario." All these funds are 
 to be dealt with in the same way. 
 
 An authority the hoa gentlemen should accept — the Admin- 
 Lstration of John Sandfield Macdonald in 1869 — put upon our 
 Statute books legi'ilatioa which declared that these moneys, and 
 all moneys accruing therefrom, belonged to the consolidated 
 revenue. The Acts of this House, passed in 1 894 and in 1897, 
 bring that legislation down to date. Now, sir, it does seem 
 strange to me that in view of the arguments which we hear year 
 after year on the floor of this House in regard to these funds 
 that hon. gentlemen opposite did not, at vhe passing of these 
 Acts, make the statements they now make ; thuy were silent 
 when these Statutes were iieing enacted by which these moneys 
 were t "- ^ taken in and fori part of the consolidated revenues 
 ri the froviLce. It was not then held, as hon. gentlemen now 
 do, that they w"'e net funds that could be dealt with in that 
 way ; si' 'here was no word of protest at that time. 
 
 The Availability of the Trnst fands. 
 
 I do not, however, intend to detain the House with a long 
 ill-icussion in regard to the Budget. Perhaps the financial critic 
 
of the Opposition (Col. Matheaon), will agree with me in thii : I 
 would like to know if he would admit that the funds held by the 
 Dominion are available if we desire to use them for the purpose 
 of meeting our liabilities : we could certainly bond them if we 
 did not draw them, bo that they may be set off a{r;iinst the lia- 
 bilities of the Province, leaving the difference in our favor. The 
 liabilities amount to 85,330,.'595.67, and the funds held by the 
 Dominion amount to 80,212,497.34, the difference being 
 3881,901.67 The Dominion has an unadjusted claim against us ; 
 the amount, however, falls below two million dollars. This, I 
 think, is admitted on all hands, and in view of the large sum of 
 interest which we receive annually, and the fact that interest on 
 our liabilities is included in the figures given (and that there is no 
 interest accumulating against us if :<'e set them one against the 
 other, it seems to me that would be i. re.-^sonable and safe propo- 
 sition), it will be seen that the interest paid annually amounts 
 to a sum more than sufficient to meet the entire annual payments 
 of the Province on its liabilities for railway certificates and an- 
 nuities ; one is more than sufficient to offset the other. If that 
 is not considered a fair proposition I would be disappointed in 
 the hon. gentleman. I just pause to know if he would accept 
 that. 
 
 Col. Matheson : I would draw the attention of the hon gen- 
 tleman to the fact that the Act of 1894 deals with the Grammar 
 School Fund, but that the Common School Fund remained a 
 trust fund ard still stands to the credit of the municipalities. 
 
 Tbe Interest Keceived From the Tmst Fnnds. 
 
 Mr. CoNMEE : The Act of 1894 deals with the several funds— 
 the investments and monies accruing therefrom, which must in- 
 clude the interest. We received interest on these funds, and, as 
 I have said, the amount is more than sufficient to meet our an- 
 nual payments on the railway certificates and annuities, and I 
 contend that we might offset one against the other. The 
 hon. gentleman shakes his head. Well, I will try again to reach 
 an agreement with my hon. friend — it would be so nice to have 
 this question settled. Will my hon. friend admit that the 
 statement of our liabilities is correctly given ? If this be ad- 
 mitted and 1 assume it is, they amount fur railway certificates 
 to $92,248.19, and for annuities to $102,900.00, making for this 
 year a total of $195,148.19, gradually reducible year by year 
 until at the end of forty years, they will fall to the small sum of 
 $12,196.43, when they will be entirely wiped out. Now, sir, we 
 have been receiving annually as interest for some years past a 
 sum of $225,000 or over, that has been paid by the Dominion 
 Government on the debts due by the Dominion to the Pro- 
 
vince. Will my lion, friend not admit that the interest 
 alone on theae debts due ut l.y the Dom'-ion, whirl, xill Ijf 
 perpetual if we do not dm ■ the principal, amounts to a sum 
 more than sufficient to meet every cent of our liabilities, and 
 Je"'8 "» « handsome marKin each year for ijeneral purpiises ' 
 The hon. gentleman can call the funds by any nai. he pleases 
 — this fact remains, and cannot be successfully disputed. Well 
 Mr. Speaker, that still leaves us the full surplus claimed by the 
 Treasurer. 
 
 Col. Matbeson- : The money that is mar' .1 as interest in the 
 payments last year received from the Dominion, is an Increaseil 
 subsidy of 8^4,000 tliat the Dominion would have to pay if the 
 
 lo'^n""""^ ^^' "'* P™*''"<=e to ""e Dominion were less than 
 82,000,000. Although the interest on the sum thus owin" would 
 be 8»0,000, the Dominion retai: from us 81-20,000, " 
 
 Mr, CONMEE: My hon. frienu must be perfectly well aware 
 that tor many years we have received over 8200,000 annually 
 on account of this interest. This is merely an omission so fai as 
 1901 IS concerned ; the interest paid so far in I'JOI is in respect 
 of the Grammar Schwl Fund— a fact whicl. shows my hon 
 fnend is wrong in his contention. He is not dined to answer 
 my question. It will be seen that the ainr t paid annually 
 rea.,hes a sum more than sufficient to meei the interest and 
 principal m respect to the liabilities of ;he Province for Railway 
 certificates and annuities. 
 
 Col. Matheson : Ti.e Act of 1897, to which the hon ger - 
 man makes reference, was merely a matter of bookkeeping i ' 
 does not affect the question. 
 
 Mr. CoNMEE : It was not merely a matter of bookkeeping it 
 was the solid concrete legislation of this Hou.se, just as much as 
 any other measure passed by it. But if my hon. friend is de- 
 termined to call it a method of bookkeeping, then I must leave 
 him to enjoy his own opinions. The proposition I make is 
 an eminently fair one. in view of the fact that, whether they are 
 called trust funds or not, we receive from that source more than 
 sufficient to pay all the indebtedness falling due year by year 
 and have stUI 8881,900.00 left, and if we add to that our bank 
 balances and direct investments, we have the exact sum claimed 
 as a surplus. (Ministerial applause.) I do not intend to detain 
 the House with any lengthy observations in regard to the finan- 
 cial statement, but, as I have just stated, it is quite rea.sonable to 
 remind hon. gentlemen of these facts. I believe we have arrived 
 at a time when, in the public interests, this ancient discussion 
 that we have from year to year should cease. 
 
Fair Criticism Versus Inglnnatlons. 
 
 Now, hon. gentlemen have been making insinuations, and for 
 reasons I shall give presently. They ai-e not entitled to claim that 
 there is anything wrong in regard to the financial statement, nor 
 are they entitled to criticise it in the manner in which they 
 have been criticising it. We, on this side of the House, 
 have a right to expect fair criticism and we are always ready 
 to accept it. It is not fair criticism, however, to say that 
 if you take out so many dollars, that so many are left. That 
 is school-boy criticism. (Ministerial laughter.) We certainly 
 know that if you take 8500,000 from the aggregate of the 
 surplus, you will have that much less. You could walk into 
 the office of any financial institution in this country, or of any 
 of the great corporations, and take their books and figure these 
 concerns to be bankrupt on the basis of the criticism which is 
 levelled against the statement submitted to this House by the 
 Provincial Treasurer. It is not even clever. (Ministerial ap- 
 plause.) Anyone could do it. I do not wish to pursue that 
 argument any longer, but I would like to refer to the criticism 
 offered by the hon. member for Centre Grey, which was not 
 fair. I do not think that that hon. gentleman has enhanced his 
 reputation in this House or the country by saying that there may 
 be maladministration, or wrongful appropriation of funds ; in 
 fact, the hon. gentleman insinuated that there may be dishonesty, 
 that these fnnds may not be appropriated or applied for the pur- 
 poses of the Province, that they may be wrongfully directed into 
 the pockets of certain individuals. Sir, I take ft that wrong- 
 doing is to be proved, not insinuated. (Ministerial applause.) 
 The resources of this House are just as great and as efficient for 
 the investigation of these matters as are the resources of any House 
 or Parliament on the American continent, and certainly as any 
 in this Dominion. Hoa gentlemen have no right either in this 
 House or in the country to cast insinue-ions of that character 
 until they have investigated them, and until they have eihauated 
 the resources of this House for so doing. And not then unless 
 they havfe proved their charges. (Ministerial applause.) My hon. 
 friend (Mr. Taylor) has pointed out the machinery which exists 
 for the investigation of these matters. That, I think, is but a 
 reasonable reference to the argument which was presented to the 
 House by the hon. member for South Grey. I do not think he 
 has done himself credit in the reference he has made and insin- 
 uations he has cast out without a shadow of evidence. The hon. 
 gentleman has made no attempt at evidence, merely making 
 broad insinuations which he dare not put in a written statement 
 and make as a direct charge, with a demand for investigation. 
 (Ministerial applause.) Until something of that character is done. 
 
that class of criticism should cease. But the lion, gentleman has 
 admitted the uselessness of the Opposition, and perhaps the hon. 
 gentleman is a better judge of what their capabilities are than 
 myselt, but if it is a fact, as the insinuations which have been 
 thrown out might lead the public to believe that there is wrong- 
 doing, and that hon. gentlemen with all the resources of this 
 House at their command cannot unearth it and expose the wrong- 
 doer, then, sir, what excuse is there for their existence as an 
 Opposition, and how can they expect the country to put them in 
 office when upon their own statement they are unable to expose 
 wrong-doing, even if it did exist Sir, it seems to me the hon. 
 gentleman has made a low estimate of the ability of that side of 
 the House, but I assume we must accept it. 
 
 The Western Dairy School. 
 
 Now, sir, I pass to other considerations in the public affairs of 
 this Province. I disagree entirely with the position taken by my 
 hon, friend who has just taken his seat (Mr. Carnegie). I may 
 refer to his remarks for one moment. Let me take one instance 
 of how unfair the hon. gentleman has been. In criticising the 
 western dairy school, I would like to point out to him that 
 he is referring to a state of affairs of more than twenty 
 years ago, when it was first opened. I should like to tell the 
 members of this House, as the hon. gentleman did not tell them, 
 although I must assume that he knew of it, that to-day there 
 are 50 pupils in that school. The School of Practical Science, 
 which was formerly in charge of the leader of this House, Hon. 
 G. W. Boss, when he was Minister of Education, was opened with 
 1 1 students. To-day there are nearly 300 students there. I just 
 mention this to show that great changes have taken place in these 
 institutions. They have to grow with the recjuirements of the 
 country — the people are taking advantage of them. They are 
 serving a good purpose. 
 
 The Rights of Settlers on Crown Lands, 
 
 The hon. gentleman made some remarks in respect to Crown 
 Lands, mentioning alleged complications and difficulties, where 
 the settlers have gone in on lands that are covered by existing 
 timber licenses. The settler is not deceived as to the conditions 
 in this regard. He knows, as every settler knows, that when he 
 goes on to these lands the.%e complicatioos may follow as a mat- 
 ter of course and that the licensee has some rights. Therefore 
 the se^'ler is not wronged. He goes there and chooses to take 
 thai I in preference to any other. But the impression that 
 might be left by my hon. friend's remarks is that these condi- 
 tions are general throughout the Province. He is not right in 
 
10 
 
 that respect. The conditions to which the hon. gentleman refers 
 ■ i i can exist only as to limited areas covered by timber berths sold 
 
 by the Sandfield McDonald Government without proper safe- 
 guards such as are now inserted in all conditions of sale of timber 
 areas — a Tory legacy left to us for which this Government are 
 not responsible. The impression, I repeat, the hon. gentleman's 
 remarks would leave upon the House and the country is that 
 these conditions of which he complains are general throughout 
 the Province. Sir, there are thousands and millions and very 
 many millions of acres of good acricultural lands in this Province 
 opened to the settler entirely free from any complication of the 
 character complained of in respect to which there is no inter- 
 ference of any agency outside the Crown. I have the honour to 
 represent a part of New Ontario, and the settler there gets all 
 the timber, not on 80 acres but on 160 acres. He not only gets 
 the pine that the hon. gentleman speaks of, but all tlie timber and 
 the minerals — everything on the land. 
 
 Col. Matheson : He does not get the minerals. 
 
 Mr. CoN'MEE : Ves, he gets everything. I am referring now 
 particularly to the Rainy River District. He gets everything 
 when he gets the patent There is no reserve of timber. I am 
 not so certain with regard to the minerals. 
 
 Mr. KiDD: The Commissioner has informed us that he does 
 not get the pine. 
 
 Mr. CoNMEE : The hon. gentleman is wrong. He does not 
 get the pine before he gets his patent, except such as he requires 
 for his own use, but he gets it after he gets the patent — all the 
 timber on his property, pine included. 
 
 Mr. KiDD : Perhaps it is all gone before he gets the patent ? 
 
 Mr. CoNMEE : Not at all, very seldom. I never knew of a 
 case with complications such as the hon. gentleman mentions. 
 
 Mr. Whitney : What explanation did the Commissioner of 
 Crown Lands give the hon. gentleman just now ? 
 
 Mr. CoNMEE : The Provincial Secretary says that I am mis- 
 taken with regard to the minerals. 
 
 Mr. Whitney : But what did the Commissioner of Crown 
 Lands say ? 
 
 Mr. CoNMEE : He did not make any remark to me. The hon. 
 gentleman is wrong as usual. (Ministerial laughter.) 
 
 I was just going to call the attention of the House to this, 
 that the Mines Act provides a safeguard for the settler so far as 
 tho minerals are concerned. They cannot be taken away from 
 him. If they are discovered on his land, he is to be paid so much 
 damages if any of his land is taken. More than that, he gets a 
 certain vested interest in the miues. I do not know of any case 
 arising out of that, but I think these regulations are a perfect 
 
11 
 
 safeguard for the settler in respect to the free grant land in the 
 mining sections. 
 
 The HaDofactiirlnie Clanse In Timber Licengeti. 
 
 I may just remind hon. gentlemen of another point that is in 
 dispute between hon. gentlemen in this House. I refer to the 
 remarks which fell from the hon. gentleman from S. Lanark. A 
 great deal of credit was taken to his party, not only in this House, 
 but in the country, for forcing, as he said, the Government of the 
 day to adopt the manufacturing clause in I'espect to our timber 
 resources. I dispute that proposition, and point out that long 
 before hon. gentlemen made a motion in this House in regard to 
 that matter, the Government had actually brought down regula- 
 tions and sold certain timber berths with the mnnufacturing 
 provision as part of the conditions of the sale. This was done in 
 1890, long before hon. gentlemen made any move in the matter, 
 long before they can show one single resolution, or one single 
 utterance on the public platforms of this country or in this House in 
 respect to that matter. And I may give a little further illustration. 
 I hold in my hand another piece of evidence of what was the 
 policy of hon. gentlemen, or their leaders at all event?, at that 
 date. I have here the question asked in the Dominion House in 
 1890 by Mr. White, M.P. for Renfrew, at one time Speaker of 
 that House. The question was, " whether, in the event of the 
 United States Congress reducing the import duty on sawn lumber 
 to $1.00 per thousand feet board measure, the Government of 
 Canada will remove the expoft duty on pine and spruce logs." 
 Sir John A. Macdonald, then the Premier of Canada, replied : " I 
 will answer that question. In the event of the United States 
 Congress reducing the import duties on sawn lumber, the Gov- 
 ernment will remove the export duty on pine and spruce logs. I 
 will take the opportunity of conveying that decision to the pro- 
 per authorities. ' The proper authorities were at Washington, 
 and the decision was conveyed there, and twenty. five days later 
 the Government of the Dominion, the Conservative Government, 
 the leaders of hon. gentlemen opposite, did remove the export 
 duty on sawlogs. So that their policy in respect to that ques- 
 tion in 1890 was undoubtedly the policy which I have outlined. 
 It might be claimed they were then looking to Washington ; but 
 let us take another condition in that respect. What was the 
 condition of the sawlog question at that time ? The export of 
 sawlogs previously had been very light. There had been no 
 great quantity of logs exported from this country down to 1893. 
 It had not reached 40,000,000 feet. In ISO:!— that was three 
 years after this Government had adopted their manufacturing 
 conditions, as I have shown, in the sale which took place in 1890 
 
12 
 
 — it is true that in 1893 the export of logs expanded to something 
 over 200,000,000 feet. But in the next year it fell down to 
 174.000,000 feet. The figures for the several years are : 
 
 1889 13,400,000 
 
 1890 25,000,000 
 
 1891 13,632,000 
 
 1892 39,073,000 
 
 1893 236,432,802 
 
 1894 248,746,314 
 
 1895 174,503,845 
 
 1896 238,050,651 
 
 1897 219,026,825 
 
 1898 156,7.j0,000 
 
 In 1891 the price of dues had been raised 25 per cent. There 
 was a sale in 1892, and in view of this increase of price and cer- 
 tain pending regulations as between Ottawa and Washington 
 the conditions respecting manufacturing were not included in the 
 sales of that year, but a small area passed into the hands of 
 Americans as the result of that sale, so that I think we are fairl}- 
 entitled to claim that the best interests of this country were 
 fully safeguarded by this Government in regard to our timber 
 resources. It is true that, in 1893, years behind as usual, hon. 
 gentlemen did move a motion which aimed at the manufacturing 
 conditions in respect to the timber of the Province, but that was 
 an objectionable motion. 
 
 An Objectionable "Trick" Motion. 
 
 I want to point out to them the conditions under which it 
 was moved. It was moved on a motion to go into supply when, 
 under the Rules of this House, there could be no amendment to 
 it It was one of those motions which hon. gentlemen oppositi 
 think it their privilege to move in this House. It was not a 
 motion, in my humble opinion, that they expected would receive 
 the sanction of this House ; it was not a motion that hon. gentle- 
 men on this side of the House could vote for. It had two very 
 objectionable features ; one, that no timber could be disposed of 
 except with the sanction of the Legislature. That meant that 
 before any timber sale could take placa, no matter what the pub- 
 lic demands might be, the Legislature had to be called and pass 
 upon the transaction. How could we do business under such a 
 system as that ? The public interest requires that for public 
 purposes and for construction purposes, as well as for the devel- 
 opment of this country, that certain areas be put up for sale in 
 order that the timber may oe utilized for the public services. 
 Fires take pUce, when it is necessary in the public interest that 
 the burnt timber be sold, otherwise it becomes a great loss and a 
 
r^':^^ « 
 
 13 
 
 menace to other standing timber. There is not a gentleman in 
 this House, who has any knowledge of timber, but who knows 
 that hundreds of millions of feet of timber have been lost to this 
 Province because it has been burnt in inaccessible sections in 
 years gone by, where it could not be sold as burnt timber has 
 been in the last eight or ten years. We now, as a general rule, 
 get a considerable benefit even from burnt timber. The Legisla- 
 ture cannot be convened for all such emergencies. Sir, I contend 
 that this was not a practical or reasonable proposition, and we 
 were perfectly justified in voting against it 
 
 There was another objection, one that amounted to non-inter- 
 Provincial trade — that there was to be no commercial intercourse 
 between the Provinces of the Dominion. Under that resolution 
 our logs could not go to Quebec or to Manitoba to be manufac- 
 tured. I doubt very much if hen. gentlemen themselves would 
 be prepared to support that principle now. They have pre- 
 sented other resolutions since then ; but hon. gentlemen hare re- 
 ceived light on the subject, and they do not now go as far as in 
 1893. The logs are not to be manufactured in the Province 
 alone, but in Canada. Thei-ufore, I claim that, so far as the saw- 
 log question is concerned, the course of the Administration is per- 
 fectly clear ; that they took the proper course in the public in- 
 terest. There was no serious export of logs previous to 1893, as 
 has been shown, except for one or two years, and the regulations 
 came into effect in 1897. Hon. gentlemen can get very little 
 comfort, I take it, out of the contention that their leaders are 
 deserving of the credit for the regulations made in respect to the 
 disposal of the timber of the Province. The facts are against 
 them ; it is an idle boast. They simply adopted what was the 
 policy of the Government. They thought that was a good pol- 
 icy, that there was something in it, and a little too late, three or 
 four years behiml the time as they always are, they moved this 
 resolution of 1893. It was such aresolution, I repeat, that they 
 knew perfectly well could not receive the anction of the major- 
 ity of this House. It was not intended as a motion that could 
 be carried. If it was such an important questien as they now 
 regard it, they should have thrown their party feelings to one 
 side, and submitted an honest motion to this House, fairly 
 drawn, so that the members could have supported it irrespective 
 of party consideration or advantage. The tactics of hon. gentle- 
 men on this question does them no credit. 
 
 Water Power and Eleetrieal Transmlnion. 
 
 Now, I must say that I am a little surprised at the motion 
 of my hon. friend for Simcoe (Mr. Miscampbell), having regard 
 to the record of that hon. gentleman in this House. It involves, 
 
14 
 
 If I am not mistaken, a new departure on the part of hon. gentle- 
 men opposite. I cannot aay, speaking for myself, that I agree 
 with it. Now, what is the motion ? I take it for granted that 
 we are to embark into two lines of enterprise that we have not 
 embarked in before. Finst, we are to go into the water power 
 development, and the transmission of electricity, and we are to 
 dispose of these products at cost I was more than surprised that 
 the one member of the House who was picked out to move this 
 resolution was the member for Simcoe, particularly in view of 
 the fact that that hon. gentleman is looking for election in one 
 of the western constituencies. I find, ' wever, that that is not 
 the only motion he has moved. I could refer to several but will not 
 go into details at this juncture. Hon. gentlemen who are here 
 representing the interests of this great city of Toronto, and who 
 have .some little interests of their own "to serve, like to have 
 some one pull the chestnuts out of the fire for them, manufacture 
 these motions, at least, that is the suspicion I have ; they want 
 to give them an air of respectability, and they select my friend 
 from Simcoe, who is a good-natured man and an agreeable gen- 
 tleman, and get him to help them by tendering these motions, 
 and I fear the hon. gentleman does so without considering the 
 efiect it will have in regard to him.self I am inclined to think 
 that it was unfortunate for himself, as he will no doubt learn 
 before returning to this House. I was also surprised at the 
 speech which he made on the motion. The hon. gentleman point- 
 ed out to us that we had something great in this country, a mono- 
 poly of nickel. I do not agree with his view. The production of 
 nickel is not confined to Ontario. It is produced in New Cale- 
 donia, Germany, the United States, France and Spain, but the 
 great bulk of the nickel, I admit, is produced from the 
 ores of Canada ai.1 New (.'aledonia. My hon. friend says we 
 have nickel, iron and other ores at Sudbury and in the West 
 and a great water power at Niagara Falls, and that the latter 
 should be developed and utilized for certain purposes. The 
 object, judging from his speech, is to transmit the power to 
 the minmg districts or to take the ores down to Niagara Falls. 
 Either proposition is not very practicable. Why take it to 
 Niagara Falls and pass other water powei-s on the way, a num- 
 ber of which are in operation ? 
 
 Mr. W^HIT.VEV : The hon. gentleman does not underatand the 
 question at all. Until he does, he will be as wide of the mark 
 as he is now. 
 
 Mr. CoNMEE: I was in the House when the hon. gentleman 
 (Mr. Miscampbell) made that part of his speech and I heard what 
 he said. He left the impression on my mind, and on the minds 
 of other hon. gentlemen, I am sure, that one of these two condi- 
 
■«J^^i^' 
 
 15 
 
 tions should prevail. (Ministerial applause.) I think the hon 
 member from South Toronto (Mr Foy) agrees with me. I noticed 
 him smile when the hon. gentleman (Mr. Miscampbell) who 
 moved the motion, referred to this great development which was 
 to build up the greater city of Toronto at the expense of Sudbury 
 and Sault Ste. Marie. Why did the motion not refer to Sault 
 Ste. Marie ? Millions of money have been spent on the develop- 
 ment of as great, or nearly as great, a water power at that place as 
 we have at Niagara Falls, I quite understand that the motion 
 IS not confined exclusively, to Niagara Fall,". It may be con- 
 .strued to cover also other places on the Niagara River, but I do 
 say that the reference in the hon. gentleman's speech was entirely 
 to Niagara Falls, and I ask again why pick that out especially > 
 Perhaps we shall get a little light on the .subject later on but I 
 was referring to Sault Ste. Marie. 
 
 The eovemmcnt's Policy re Water Powers. 
 
 I have before me a copy of the regulations dealing with water 
 powers— regulations mar"' by this Government, and under 
 which the public interests are safeguarded. No one has been 
 given a monopoly of any water power. Anyone can go and 
 demand power from a Company, and the Company are bound to 
 give it at a reasonable price, or it may be settled in case of dis- 
 pute by arbitration. 
 
 Col. Matheson: It was the Dominion, not the Province, that 
 gave us the Sault Ste. Marie power privileges. 
 
 Mr. CoNMEE: The hon. gentleman is absolutely mistaken. 
 (Ministerial applause). I have been closely connected with that 
 company in the building of that undertaking, and I know where 
 the privileges come from. They come from the Government of 
 this Province. (Renewed applause). The Doninion had nothing 
 to do with it. The power that the Dominion has is still running 
 over the rapids undeveloped, because they have not taken ad- 
 vantage of the situation. (Long continued applauseX All our 
 water powers are disposed of under these conditions. No one 
 has any favors. 
 
 Well, I desire to say that there is nothing new in the resolu- 
 tion It is true that the Government has not embarked in the 
 development of water power, or the transmission of electricity. 
 Whether they should do so or not, and whether it would be in 
 the public interest for them to do so in certain sections I am not 
 prepared to say. But it would be very strange if they did so 
 at Niagara Falls in view of the conditions safer;uaraing the pub- 
 lic interests which now exist, and the vested interests they would 
 destroy by giving competition with public money at cost. In 
 such a contingency are we to compeusate those who would be 
 
lU 
 
 injured? We have been discussing the development of the re- 
 sources of the country in this House for many years, and we 
 have never heard or had any resolution on the subject from o7r 
 friends opposite until this year. (Ministerial applause). I would 
 Hnt^ r" '"'*' *''°.*'l." 'he hon. gentleman Sn that side of the 
 
 wC"„. . "T!, °^ 'i' r^'"" ""•^^'" ■■«"«''■ ''" "<" told "s 
 what we are to do. He has not placed before the House any 
 scheme by which we coidd develop these powers. He h^ no^ 
 
 revenl L'T """""^ Zf ''""'''' ^^^ f™™ *« consolidated 
 laughter) P'"-P°^«-tl'»t was to be expected. (Ministerial 
 
 The Vacnenem of the Opposition Platform. 
 
 taxi?r„°; ?«""t""«VPP'"''^.T "■** *''^J" '"'«"•! to '•educe the 
 their.; ^ ' ?" '""'' ''^^^'' '"'^" '"='»tion we have put on 
 the great corporations; nay, more, it is contended that thev 
 will also be able to reduce the expenditure generally. At the 
 same time hon. gentlemen also claim that they would Xe a 
 greater development along certain lines, a.;d particularly In the 
 newer sections of the country ; they even claim they will build 
 
 Cnd7°''"='r' 'Y """'"'y- '"'<* ^"" *•« »fc:« to c»t down the 
 «.vpenditure and reduce taxation, but they fail utterly to show 
 toMi' Jbr'L''°"- (fie^owed laughter)-: Yet they\ave noT 
 told us where they are going to cut down the expenses or what 
 corporations they would relieve from taxation. One hon gentle- 
 
 -use eTnffi"- ."^^ "7, r'!:« *" <="' "ff ^"-"^ of the official 
 -useless oftcials, he called them. That is not a fair argument. 
 
 ^ntlemtn [^ .iny unnecessary officials in this Proving, hon. 
 
 fhiniTw t ^^"^ the courage to point them out. I do not 
 
 fnr ih "■? "' ^"^ "*'''*'' ""'t the people have not asked 
 
 tioZZ "M^ rt °°' '"T"'^'^' •""* ^^° h"^* not been pet^ 
 tioned for. I do not know of a case where the Government has 
 njrt been pressed hard and long bofore these appointments we?e 
 
 sarv^el'^in-'f'"'™ ^'if "'"'^^■''^'"•y officials, if there are unneces- 
 sary e.vpenditures, there are resources of investigation which the 
 «me iTlTr \^^\^\'^'" disposal. Now tnd here Is h^ 
 flu to IThl '" T *fJ'"=X^''^ Pjove their assertions: if they 
 tail to do this we should not hear of it on the hustin<r3 If that 
 condition o thing., exists, now is the time to StiJate it 
 
 EnconracliiK the mining Industry. 
 
 m.^^^ ^°"- *"^"? (*?'■• Miscampbeli), the mover of the motion 
 made some remarks about the smelting business. I do noUhink 
 
17 
 
 I am quoting him wrongly. I would be glad to be put right if I 
 am placing the member from Simcoe in a false position. I think 
 he spoke of the smelting of iron and nick 1 and other ores by the 
 power at Niagara Falls. Let me point out that we have customs 
 smelters in this province, and hon. gentlemen themselves were, 
 I am free to say, parties consenting to one of these. In the 
 vote which was taken for the Manitoulln and North Shore 
 Railway, provision was made for a customs smelter. The 
 Govei-nment ha.s already taken steps in that connection, and in 
 the Sudbury and Soo Districts have already provided for the 
 establishment of a smelter to assist the prospector or mine 
 owner to obtain a ready and speedy rr cum on his ore.s. Nay, 
 more, there ha.s been legislation on the Statute books of this 
 country for ten years which places within the power of every 
 municipality, every town in the country, such for exainrle 
 as Sudbury, or other localities of that character, that choose to 
 avail themselves of it, to have to a considerable extent the advan- 
 tage of a smelter for the treatment and testing of the ores of 
 their particular localities. I refer to the Mining Schools Act, by 
 which the Government agrees to give one-half the coat of mining 
 schools established in any particular locality. New, I take it for 
 granted that hon. gentlemen will agree that if we are to embark 
 in any expenditure in the direction of establishing smelters, in 
 le direction of mining development, we cannot do better than, 
 so far as practicable, make them educational institutions, just the 
 jame as we are advancing our agricultural interests by the es- 
 tablishment of agricultural colleges, the dairy schools, and the 
 other institutions which we have organized to advance the inter- 
 ests of the agriculturists. Just so we can advance the interests 
 of the mining men, and legislation such as I have referred to has 
 already been introduced, of which Kingston has taken advantage. 
 There is an institution there where the ores of that particular 
 locality may be treated, gold or other ores from anywhere in 
 the Province, are treated and treated successfully. Wc have at 
 Rat Portage not one, but two Customs smelters, which have been 
 established for some years, treating the ore of the miner and pros- 
 pector so that he can receive his return. It is strange indeed that 
 the hon. gentleman (Mr. Misoampbell) should have been asleep loi 
 a long time — I cannot understand it any other way. The hon. 
 gentleman visited .some portions of western Ontario some years 
 ago, and had not seen much to arouse his interest, but within the 
 last year or two he has been ashore and has found something 
 going on ; he has discovered that there is something moving in 
 the west, and, like Rip Van Winkle, wakes up, not at Sault Ste. 
 Marie, where he is a candidate, but at Niagara Falls. (Laughter.) 
 
18 
 Procreag u Being Hade 
 
 Railway. Well Mr Snp«lf»r r Ji. ? !i. . ^^sn^liaa Pacihc 
 
 son.ethmg about the Canadian Padfic RaHway l.istorv anH r "^ 
 
 Mr. Whitnev : Another new discovery 
 
 Mr. CoxMEE : Not at all ; a little more li»ht that is all T „f 
 
 any hon. gentleman either on the floor olthflwZt T' 
 
 committedloita,TnIton^Wh,/>, T'°'™ "^ C*"*''» "'*^ 
 
 wa.at.certai;'rer''o;^,':;sedTLb",U^^^^^^^^^ 
 
 which t was huUt r win »„ii '^'""'^•"s. ^as tne method by 
 
^jsH: ^.v 
 
 19 
 
 of Ontario. Then something turned them aronnc), gome one took 
 them by the ear, said they were going wrong, and that they 
 should not say black was black, but that they should say 
 white was black, and they did it. That is their history. They 
 were not intending to develop New Ontaric " r from it ; they 
 cannot escape from that position. 
 
 Where the Credit for \'ew Ootarlo Belangs. 
 
 The credit for N w Ontario and its development belongs to 
 this Government It does not belong to the Conservative party, 
 but to Sir Oliver .Mowat's Administration, who rescued it from 
 th', hands of the leaders of hon. gentlemen opposite, and saved 
 tht great resources of that region to the Province of Ontario. 
 (Ministerial applause.) Sir, I think if there is anything which 
 hon. gentlemen should touch lightly, it is the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway. The bargain with that Company was condemned, and 
 strongly condemned, and is deserving of the greatest possible 
 condenmation. The country has not forgotten, hon. gentlemen 
 have not forgotten, the Pacific scandal by which their leaders tried 
 to barter away the .-ights of Canada for money with which to cor- 
 rupt the electorsof tliis countrj-. Where is there any safeguard in 
 the contract which they made for the protection of the rights of the 
 people? Not only did they give away iihundred million dollars, and 
 lands sufh'-ient to build the road, but they handed over the road as 
 well to a private corporation. Up to that time the road belonged 
 to the people of Canada, but by their Act the line was given over 
 to the control of the Company, which was, as to services and rates, 
 placed beyond any practical legislative control of the people of 
 Canada. That is not a history that hon. gentlemen need to be proud 
 of. If they want to claim credit for the conditions of the agreement 
 with the Company in that regard they are welcome to it. (Minis- 
 terial applause.) There are other features, but I want to say here 
 that the Liberal party since being returned to power at Ottawa, 
 has done something to ameliorate the unsatisfactory conditions in 
 which the people's interests were placed, and gain back a little 
 of their rights for them, but it is far from satisfactory yet. When 
 the Company was pressing for the Crow's Nest Pass there was 
 something done to retain some control for public rights. But I 
 piint out that if ever there was a sacrifice or a neglect of the 
 rights of the public on the part of an Administration, it was in 
 connection with the C.P.R. I have nothing but words of praise 
 for the enterprise of that great Company. They have given 
 Canada a great service — they have done good to *' itry. 
 
 But I have every condemnation to oSer against i who 
 
 were the sworn guardians of the public interests h 'lat time, 
 and who made a contract of the character to which I have re- 
 
I 
 
 i h 
 
 Mil 
 
 20 
 
 fcrred. I contrast that with contracU that are made by this 
 Adm.ni8tr.tion. where every public interest is safeguarded and 
 development stipulated for-uo monopoly of rates, no lockinR up 
 
 example of the leaders of hon. gentlemen opposite • he has nnt 
 been nnm ndlul of the public tnterest. /eTa!. not given land 
 grants without proper stipulations for their settlementfas did the 
 ThiTi«°. Z gentlemen opposite in the bargain with the C.P R 
 There IS hardly a feature in conn .ctlon with that railway bargain 
 i7l't 1 * C°°»«7''«'« P-'rty has any rea«,n to be proud 
 he Liberal party did not oppose the building of that railway f 
 Et-'lr.'"*, ■?<?" gentlemen have charged. What Si, Alexander 
 Mac'-nzie and hit followers opposed was giving it into the hands 
 
 tiZT^'T "/""u' »iy o°'"li"o''' for the safeguarding of 
 the public mteres Mr. Blake contended that some lections^ of 
 
 TitlT^ '''?'j'w """^u'" ''"^™"~ °f "o^" difficult sect on' 
 of It, and operated before other .sections. Conservatives say hat 
 
 i?,'L7*t * '"""t '? °PP»''"»° t° ">e line, but it was not ; and 
 although no such clause was put in the conditions, it was in a 
 mea-uie carried out in practice, the section between Port Arthur 
 and Winni[)eg being built first "-i-uui 
 
 hv .1" H'"""f.'''''Vr''^ J" '^^^' «■"'"«'' "S|>eeches and Letters 
 tt r ^'^"'' Mf^Plie^™"." the Mackenzie Administration 
 
 ionT he"c P r' h^;?^f'^^?'' '" "•" """•"■ °f *« ^o-'truc" 
 l-llLi C.PR, but for being too rapid. Their policy was 
 criticised as reckle-ss expenditure. They (the Conservatives^ 
 
 tZtTl tht R 'fp'= °' "" ""'="•"' °f '•>» ---d bXee;lT 
 thTunh. 1 1 , Y ^r' «''",P'-e™at"re, and advocated using 
 J^lYZi Tu\ '"■' '°' "'"■ a'l-™il --oito to Manitoba and the 
 Northwest. Tha'„ sir, was the Conservative policy in 1878 
 bu. I am not going to dwell on that subject ; yet I do not wish 
 hon. gentlemen to imagine or the country to uuderstand That 
 they are entitled to particular c redit for the C.P.E. It is aVreat 
 
 which tr.^'P"'^' r °^"'''^'i »" Canadians are proud^and 
 ?H f „)?• ^t 7!»P»"'y -""l good will of the people of Canada. 
 Still, while that 13 the case, it does not at all take a .7ay the con 
 demnation due to the men who made the i.iprovident bargahi 
 ^erlrnnr*^ the interests of the people of the country. MaZ 
 erial app ause.) Sir, I admit that later on the Conservative 
 i^rcr f f^'f"? '"I.^P'^'^y construction, and or thatThev™nay 
 
 tTuudS ofiC'z' '^°''' '"'' '"''-' --« ---"^d t^ 
 
 Colonization Koads and Trangportatlou. 
 
 .^.I'lL'j?!; ^'fi ""^ "'h" lias just preceded me (Mr. Carnegie) hay 
 said that the Government should be more liberal and give largf r 
 
21 
 
 cnnta for colonisation roads and for better means of ttansport- 
 ition in the new sectioas, adding that greater prosperity would 
 result I think the hon. gentleman forgeU his own record in th« 
 House and some other gentlemen forget their own record also in 
 regard to this question. I have in my hand a . eaolutiou proposed 
 bv Mr Paterson (Conservative member for hssex) in 1877, who 
 m'oved; seconded by Mr. Harkin, " thai the >iOtl.rc.olutv^re- 
 aarding colonization road,. IjeaviendedOysiibstxtutiiig 850,000 
 tor 877300" This would have reduced the grant for coloniza- 
 tion roads by $27,300. Hon. gentlemen opposite heartily ap- 
 proved of that resolution, and that is a part of their record in re- 
 mrd to colonization roads. (Ministerial applause ) At a later 
 ieriod (1894) Mr. Campbell (Algoma East) moved, seconded by 
 ffr Misbampbell, (the hon. gentleman who is now nominated, i 
 understand, tor one of the new constituencies.) "tl^t the remlu- 
 tion relati^ to the Crown Land, Department be not carrusd but 
 be torthwit^ referred back to CymmUtee ofSujnny ^mth tiutrijc- 
 ti.-to reduce the grant <,/ $125,309 for Cro^vn Lands to $bO.- 
 
 000, thus reducing the rant /or the ^^''r'.ir ^MT^XIki 
 tyu 865 309 " Hon. gentlemen may claim that they did not strike 
 alcolokization roads in that resolution, because colonization roads 
 are not mentioned. Well, Mr. Speaker, it is just as plain as any- 
 thing can be that the appropriation for the expenditure of the De- 
 partment of Crown Unds, which then had charge of colonization 
 roads could not be cut down by more than one-halt unless it 
 took away from colonization roads a very large I>'oP"/t'0"- 
 (Ministerial applause.) It was merely a subterfuge on the face 
 of it. and WM in my opinion meant to strike a d.rec blow at 
 colonization roads. It was so understood by the I-^OP « of^h« 
 country, and will be so understood by hose who needed *« roads. 
 (Ministerial applause.) That is not all, Mr. Speaker I have an- 
 other resolution here. Not only was our friend and all hon. 
 gentlemen opposite not willing to grant money for the cuns ruc- 
 fion of colomzation roads (and, by the wav, let me remind my 
 hon. friend, who has just taken his seat, '>}''' he voted foi^e 
 resolution which I have just referred to, and for this one, too) 
 but another resolution was proposed in 18y9-a much later period 
 than the others, which dealt with several items that we e before 
 the House. Both my hon. friends have told us during he pres- 
 ent session that they are friends of New Ontario, f"«"d' «"h« 
 development of that country and of tl-e Province, and if their 
 party is returned to power they look for greater development 
 than would be the case if the present Government was returned 
 to power. In regard to this resolution of 1899, the item w^ not a 
 very large one, but it just shows where hon. gentlemen stood Mr. 
 Jamieson moved, seconded by Mr. Duff."<Aat«AeatIK'wnJo/$2,7oO, 
 
22 
 
 being $2-50 /or Vaccine fartfl, $1,000 for colonization pamph- 
 lets, and $1,500 for Victorian Order of Nuraes, lie redtteed to 
 31,000." The colonization pamphlets was the main item struck 
 at. (Ministerial applause.) Not only were they not willint; 
 to give aid to colonization roads, but they were not willing 
 that $1,000 should be expended to let settlers know that we had 
 such a place as New Ontario, and yet they expect to have the con- 
 fidence and support of the i)eople of New Ontario, and the Prov- 
 ince generally : This, sir, is a small matter, but it illu.strates the 
 sagacity and capacity of hon. gentlemen opposite. (Ministerial 
 laughter and applause.) I may tell the hon. gentlemen, and I 
 think I represent the sentiment of a very large proportion of the 
 comi^n.iity, when I iay that never will they have the support 
 and , confidence of their own friends in this Province while 
 they pu.sue such tactics as these. 
 
 The Opposition Becord Against Surveys. 
 
 That is not all. I have still another resolution here. Not only 
 in regard to colonization roads arehon. gentlemen behind the times, 
 but also in regard to the surveyingof our unsurveyed land.s. If the 
 country is to be developed, it is necessary that the Administration 
 must undertake some expenditures. I have a resolution in luy 
 hand which vas moved by Mr. Clancy, and seconded by Mr. 
 Miscampbell, in 1893. I regret that the hon. gentleman (Mr. 
 Miscampbell) is not in his seat, because I think the remarks 1 
 made in opening, that he is too accommodating to others of his 
 Party, holds good in respect to this resolution, at least 1 am sus- 
 picious that other gentlemen did not wish to be identified with it, 
 I venture to say that the hon. member for East Simcoe (Mr. 
 Miscampbell) will not second or move a motion along the lines 
 of an}' of these motions during the present session. New light 
 has, I believe, come into his eyes — he no longer sees through 
 a smoky glass. The hon gentleman moved, " Tliat 'he eighty- 
 ninth resolution be not now agreed to but be re/erred bad' to a 
 Committee of the House with instructions to amend the same 
 by striking out the item of $35,000 proposed to be voted for sur- 
 veys of new tmvnships in the new Districts." Every dollar is to 
 be struck out. Sir, that is not all. Here is another motion mov- 
 ed in 1894 by Mr. Miscampbell, seconded by Mr. Clancy: "That 
 all tlie words in the motion after ' that ' be struck out, and the 
 /allowing substituted therefor : ' Tliat this House disapproves of 
 the large expenditure which is made annually by tke Crown 
 Landi Department for surveys, amounting to upuurds o/$35,- 
 OOO." Now, sir, for the fifteen years I have been in this Hou.se, I 
 have this complaint against hon. gentlemen opposite, that they 
 have persistently opposed the development of the resources of 
 
23 
 
 » n,^ Prnvince Hon. gentlemen have op- 
 the new seclions » f f ^ °"f„"';,,at direction They claim to 
 posed every me- /'« '°"„^'i'iably vote against it. Not 
 ^.'"^'''T/th^rX le^CcXni'a^ion roacls, and abso - 
 only would they give '"'^''^'"^^■^....ijin,, but we are not to 
 utely nothing ^ '""""^w „.. to et but little for the con- 
 get railway facilities. W'^*'^^ Jr^'Vnat speiJ the small 
 ftruction o'f colonization roads we »««* °^' J„„ „, „„t t„ 
 sum of 81,000 for advertising th« ^^'^ „„broken forest, 
 survey the ~»";^>. "^i<=';<,':ii°eo„rmn the Governmei.t for, 
 Sir, if there IS ^"5'''''°=' \ T"' ™ ndin<r larger sums for sur- 
 it is that they have "°\,^'=" 'f "een'lar-e sums spent, and 
 veying. I siy there should havt bee" mr v^ ^^^^^^ 
 
 I Lpe to see large »"™^ J«J^ acres of la -J much ot which 
 i, there for hoUjng 100^000 000 a -.^o^^^^^ ,^ ^^^^ ^ 
 
 is as good as that °o" "" Whv should the young men of 
 if we are not to «ven survey U^ ,JJthin" about the resources 
 the Province, who y'^tlinth^il knowledge with respect to the 
 of this country not obtain hat k°ow^;°«^^„^ and which it is 
 unoccupied land of the Province we St l,po .^ ^^ ^^.^^ 
 
 the duty of the Government t° ^"RP'y, ' '\, ^^y expendimre 
 
 that is needed in this ^""cc'i™. ^ ^^^^^^^^^ it is for sur- 
 
 which should be increased and largely mc^t ^ , ^^^^ 
 
 .eying this — y;'"„,°^ri',tt:: oTt'he country, and not 
 men ot the Jr-rov nee oi v" nrower information on it. 
 
 have a map °"t''1d f /able to get f ulUnf ormation and learn 
 Every settler should be able to gee i"" ,. ; ^^^- prov nee. 
 ^hat\e may desire ^o^n- about any loeaj.^ ^_^^_^^_ 
 
 There is no reason why ^ve shoum n Commissioner 
 
 surveyed in this ''■•.'?"°fi„*"i,\tt there is a great country to 
 of Crown Lands will not forget that there, ^^^ 
 
 ing the resources of the counuy, uus 
 
 fled in spending. „.„„,d. 
 
 XUe ..avaace. P-ey^,- --.—■»- «'«"7 
 
 I am glad that I am able to say what pevhaps I -e^^^fore 
 was able to say here, that I a™ "lore heaH^^- was b tore. (Min- 
 present policy of*t^^°J^™r.entlemen opposite claim they are 
 isterial applause.) ^ow, hon.£ntlemen opp ^^ ^^ j 
 
 e^h^ttjk^e!i:v^ri"li"Slca,ltbl,.ev.thembe. 
 
i 
 
 Ml 
 
 m 
 
 24 
 
 would like to have confid"nteTnth.,tr'" '""'• S«"™en, I 
 the floor of this House but wSen I i^tT I '''^** ^ ''^^ <»• 
 House, at the different m,orut.^nrica^^/' *•"! r"""*^^ °f 'h^ 
 now made. What is their hstorv? ""?," l""""? *''« statements 
 ark (Col. Matheson) stated tl ItTtL ll °- '"'"^ ^'°"' I*"" 
 went into New On ariolWe tould ,i " ^ "en of the country 
 if they went to one localitv »LI i j J"" P'*"* ^O"" them ; that 
 have the land, and iaherw:it t°o i^'*l!°'^*^' "'^ ™"'''y 
 men have the land, or a daTm on it ri'f' *''"' "^« '""'her- 
 pulp companies ha^e the land The sett """"k"'"''' **"" ""e 
 ookmg for trouble, is usually able to fi^J •7*'° F^' ^^^"^ 
 tel my l,on. friends that the^ ar! huJ^ "• J '^«"' »« 
 afiJ millions, many millions of aor^«p"'? ']"^ thousands 
 s'de of the areas connected witK '"«^»f 'and there out- 
 pompany. I do norbehet th,t thZi^hT^'''^^^'- "' P"'P 
 m that respect. Hon. gentlemen wUl not ^^'''T '° ^"^ «^'«"t 
 there ,8 not provision for the s^tlT^i^ p f "5"'.'y """'eid that 
 lumber license or pulp concession orTi '*'"^' '""'"'^^'l ™ ""y 
 men claim they are irfavor of ?h<. H 7^ «'''"'• H°"- gentle- 
 of the countryf^How cardLln ^^^'oP^ent of the resources 
 ture or encou^asernrby the te"l''Tt'^ "'''""'* «='P<«>J -■ 
 Ix It not better to part wihsolTth^"^°^"^«"*« land, 
 opment and prosperity Jhlr tC have th "f ''"""' '^"^'- 
 wilderneas forever? S™ the are^ tlu k'"?l""'''>' «° unbroken 
 red to are but small. Be's de?we do n^Y ^'^P.^TP""'^'^ ^^f^'- 
 earned away, it still remainsin th! P " ""^ "■ '^« 'and 's not 
 settlement w^ get as m,?.h^V ^ P^^nce. And, sir, as reearl 
 int still remaif:di:Z&'r:- "early s„,a, w; coXg^ 
 provision for the agricnlturarsettW t- P" ^ "g'^^ements there is 
 .3 absolutely under%ur crtro, in/^^^S '° '"'. the lands; that 
 spect to lands under fimhll. i° ' """.the same is the case in re 
 
 There is.no cherkts'SLmnrhrof'^h'''^*""^^^""^^^^^ 
 in our railway grants each alt»ri,l* m i *"^* eases. Then 
 
 and settler, going i^t^ve ranw«v%-f-t'''"'''"« '" the Crown 
 not have if thf enfouraXent hXot w'''' ^^'"K "^^^ ''""'^ 
 to construct Besides, the area, th?iM ^'""' ""^ eompanies 
 up, as they are bound to secuTsettlert ^lu ^f ' "'" ""' '""ked 
 So that in all these cases the nublllT \ ''" ^^""^ °' '""^^eit it. 
 must let the lumberm^roZKw J- '' " '"^^-g^arded. We 
 homes, towns or citiea V^e waAt tt 7 f '^^,F»'">°t build our 
 aborand enable the settler fo?.ii?? P"'Pi°'"' • 'hey employ 
 
 -et. Of the sett.rcroStTnt„';5:i, thTart^a-vetef;^ 
 
 — 
 
'-^■':^t^- 
 
 25 
 
 j the market, alike necessary for the producer and the consumer. 
 SSir, there were some timber areas put under licenses away back 
 I in the time of the Sandfield Macdonald and, I think, the Blake 
 Administrations, in which there were not the provisions for settle- 
 ment that are now inserted in all licenses. Questions touching 
 vested rights have in consequence arisen, and the ditticulties hon, 
 gentlemen opposite refer to arise in respect to these areas only. 
 The criticism goes too far, it is unfair. This Government is in no 
 way to blame tor the want of caution and foresight on the part 
 of their predecessors in office over thirty years ago. 
 
 Conservative Opposition t > 
 River Rt 
 
 le Ontario and Bainy 
 I way. 
 
 Hon, gentlemen profess now to be in favor of opening the 
 newer sections of the Province. I fear it is a pretence on the 
 eve of an election. If that was their disposition, why vott- 
 against the aid to the Ontario and Rainy River Railway, which is 
 developing the country lying between the Canadian Pacific Rwl- 
 way and the southern border of the Province, and which will 
 bring into the heart of Canada the productions of Manitoba and 
 the West, which formerly went to the American seaboard. Why 
 did they vote aganst that great enterprise ? 
 
 Mr. Whitney ; When ? 
 
 Mr. CoNMSE : Why, sir, the Company were knocking at the 
 doors of this House for ten years for aid to build that railway, 
 
 Mr. Whitney: When? 
 
 Mr. CoNMEE : I will point out when. The hon. gentleman 
 is on record, he cannot escape. What I want to point out is 
 that thev were knocking at the door of the House for aid ; they 
 could not get it except in little patches, ar ' finally had to tell 
 the Government that the road could not i uilt unless it was 
 aided from one end to the other. You cannot start it nowhere 
 and end it nowhere. As a business proposition it would cost 
 the country more in the end to aid it in that way. They want- 
 ed a fp'r and reasonable grant ; they were pointing out that it 
 could not be done with a little grant. For 12 or 15 years it had 
 been before the public, before the Government, and before the hon. 
 the leader of the Opposition. His friends pressed that view of 
 it on his attention. The leader of the Opposition in 1894 voted 
 for a motion to reduce by $1,000 a mile the subsidy to that road. 
 I say his motion, if carried, would have killed the railway. I 
 have spoken in my constituency and I have never misrepresent- 
 ed him in that respect. I have pointed out exactly the motion 
 which he made, that it was a vote hostile to that great enter- 
 prise, and if that vote had carried we would not have had that 
 road to-day. 
 
26 
 
 I 
 
 Mr Whitney : The statement is still untrue. 
 Mr CoNMEE ■ I must ask my hon. friend to explain in what 
 way it is untrue. I have here the motions which 'hehon^ gentle- 
 man moved in 1899, on the third readmg of the B,ll (No. 253), 
 relating to railway aid. It was moved by Mr. Whitney, seconded 
 by Mr. Matheson, " That all the words o) the motion after the 
 luord-thaf he omitted, and the following substituted: iM Bill 
 he not nov< read the third time but be forthwith recommitted Jo a 
 rommitte,- of the V/hole Howe with imtrMtwns to amend the 
 ^ame by staking out sub-section four thereoj and substitute 
 therefor the folloiinng. '(*)' <» «''« Ontaru, and Rainy River 
 Railway from Fort Frances to the mouth of Rainy River, r 
 distance not exceeding seventy-five ^f^.a ™«^ ,', "«7Ji( 
 $3 000 a mile:" Sub-section (1) ot Bill (2031 provided forSl.OOO 
 per mile aid to the Ontario and Rainy River Railway from its 
 junction with the Port Arthur, Duluth and Western Railway to 
 Fort Frances, a distance of 22.5 miles. This was in addition to 
 the $3,000 per mile previously granted. And $4,000 per mile from 
 Fort Frances to the crossing of Rainy River, making the grant 
 34000 per mile throughout. The effect of the hon. members 
 motion would have been to reduce the grant to the Ontario & 
 Rainy River Railway by $330,000. The statement is theretore 
 perfectly true and I repeat it. 
 Mr. WiiiTSEY I am satisfied. 
 
 Mr Conmee: Well, I am glad the hon. gentleman is satis- 
 fied (Laughter.) That, sir, is not the only case. Here is another 
 motion moved by the hon. gentleman against aid to the HaUbur- 
 ton Whitney and Mattawa Railway. In this case Mr. Whitney 
 moved, seconded by Mr. Marter, -nat all the uords of the motion 
 after ' that ' be omitted, and the following substituted: Ihe Bill 
 be not now read the third time but be forthwith recommitted to a 
 Committee of the Whole House luith instruHions to amend the 
 same by striking oat section three thereof " 1 hat, .sir was the 
 section of the Bill providing for aid to this railway to the extent 
 of $3 000 per mile that was to be cut out by the hon. gentle- 
 man's' motion. That is not all ; there are others I have here 
 another on the third reading of the same t,in(253). The hon. 
 gentleman moved, seconded by Mr. Marter, " That all theivords 
 of the motion after the word ' that ' be omitted and thr following 
 sultstituted : th'e Bill be not now read the third timebut beforth- 
 wUh recommitted to a Committee of the W'ole House with in- 
 structions ,0 amend the same by striking out sub-sectwn one 
 thereof providing for a grant of $2,000 per mue for a distance 
 not exceeding 250 mi7es to the Ontario. Hudson .■> Bay and 
 Western Railway." 
 
.■if^ ,.^s ■ ;.. 
 
 €oii»erTatlve Opporitlon to the Algoma Central Bailway. 
 
 Then sir, take the Algoma Central Railway. The lion. 
 gentleman said during the session of 1900 that that was a 
 colossal steal. I venture to say that the day wil come when 
 the hon. gentleman, if he continues in public life will ad- 
 mit that that was one of the best measures ever voted for in 
 the Legislature. (Ministerial applau.se.) I think the hon 
 gentleman is on record and I think that he cannot escape from 
 that record. What are the conditions? The building of the 
 Algoma Central Railway will be ju.st as great a hencfit to 
 this country as was the Ontario and Rainy River Ra Iway 
 now the Canadian Northern. However that may be I would like 
 to know why hon. gentleman opi'osite opposed that great enter- 
 !,rise Tdlhen votedlor the Manitoulin anf North Shore Railway ? 
 Ministerial applause.) 1 do not think that he was lair or con- 
 sistent Let us examine into the reasons for each of these \ otes^ 
 The Algoma Central Railway is a railway proposed to be built 
 from Sault Ste. Marie to James Lay. It is a railway building 
 into an entirely undeveloped and unexploited portion of this 
 Province, where there had never been any development up to 
 that time, except a few Hudson Bay traders' posts and some ht- 
 t e developmen? at Miehipicoten. It was a road that was mfan- 
 itely needed in the public interest and one that it was thought 
 all parties would have supported. It was going through an en- 
 tirely unsettled part of the country, which however, had giea 
 possibilities and interest for the people of h'^„ I'™^'"':^;^^^ ''» 
 we come to treat the Manitoulin and North Shore Railway we 
 must a.lmit that it, too, is a great enterprise one o the ™ads. I 
 believe that will be of the greatest possible benefit to this Fro\- 
 ince Butit is going through a country that has been partly 
 settled for perhaps, fifty years. There is already set lement m 
 many pla es^and fninin|and agricultural development ,s going on 
 along a great portion Sf the line, and, to my mind, of the two 
 road? the one which is penetrating the new portion of the eoun- 
 try instea,l of the one which is penetrating an older and more 
 set led portion, should have had the preference in the judgmen 
 of the members of this House, as it did have by members on this 
 "ide. But we do not find that to be th. case with hon. gentle- 
 men opposite. We find that hon. gentlemen who had voted 
 against^ the Algoma Central Railway and the grai. s of land to 
 that Company, voted in favor of a larger land grant to the ««>'■- 
 toulin and North Shor. ' -e, which is penetrating a country tha 
 hU some railway com Uion e'ready, some settlement, and 
 
 TaC necessity as r • 'ocal .avelopment than the former 
 
 of ales necessity a^s^_^^^ They took that action for the 
 
 simple reason that tie press of the country, the public opinion of 
 
2S 
 
 
 the country, so strongly endorsed the policy of the leader of this 
 Government in regard to the grants which were made to the 
 Algoma Central Railway the previous year, that the hon. gentle- 
 men were forced Ijy public opinion to vote that way. If I might 
 venture a little further, I would say that perhaps some hon. 
 gentlemen opposite were forced by their friends to vote that way 
 because they found that it was necessary for political reasons to 
 support the Manitoulin and North Shore road. (Ministerial ap- 
 plause.) I may be going too far. I do not wish to be under- 
 stood as saying that they were not honest in their different 
 votes, or that they did not intend to advance the interests of the 
 country, but I will say that their action was open to suspicion. 
 (Ministerial laughter.) In one case they were driven to it by 
 public opinion, and in the other case they followed the policy 
 that they have followed for so long in this House of opposing 
 everything that the Government does and which, if they continue 
 to follow, will assure them a position on that side of the House 
 for the next twenty years. (Laughter and applause.) 
 
 A Railway to James Bar. 
 
 1 wish to say a wo 1 in regard to the Algoma Central Rail- 
 way, or some railway to James Bay, I care not whether it is the 
 Algoma Central Rs.ilway system or another, although I must say 
 that I believe that the gentlemen who are engaged in the con- 
 struction of that railway are thoroughly in earnest. They have 
 already expended six or seven millions of money in the construc- 
 tion of that road, and I have no doubt that in less than two 
 years it will reach the shores of James Bay. (Ministerial applause.) 
 This Province occupies a position which no other Province in this 
 Dominion does, having ou its northern border a seacoast port, 
 and on its southern border the great chain of inland lakes fraught 
 with great possibilities in regard to the welfare of our people. 
 The resources of that great James Bay region are very little 
 known. Our Government sent out prospectors some years ago, 
 who found that there is a belt of land stretching from the Ottawa 
 River to the western boundary of this Province, as good for agri- 
 cultural purposes as is the land we have now under cultivation — 
 well timbered, well watered and fit for agriculture. But that is 
 not all. They found that we have in the belt south of the height 
 of land a region containing the minerals found in the older parts 
 of the Province, and some of which are now being rained to a 
 great extent. The iron ores of Michipicoten and the gold ores 
 are being mined and treated, and this removes our mineral re- 
 sources in that section from the realm of speculation. We have 
 there a mine (the Helen mine) which produced u great tonnage 
 of ore last year, and which gives promise of gieatsr possibilities 
 
29 
 
 in the near future. Then, sir, we have another mining area. 
 According to the report of the Geological Departmental explorers 
 sent out from Ottawa (a report to which we have access), and 
 from the report of other explorers, there is an extjiie'vo „.oa on 
 the James Bay coast in which minerals of economic value are 
 found. We are told by the explorers that there are great quan- 
 tities of iron ore, of copper, and of petroleum and other minerals 
 that are of great value. But that is not all. There is another 
 article there which is of special interest to Ontario, that is coal. 
 Now, there may be some difficulties in utilizing some minerals in 
 that region, and their development may take time, but we need 
 the coal. I feel warranted in saying that there are immense 
 areas of coal, but I cannot speak with certainty as to the quality 
 or depth of these deposits. But it is beyond dispute that there 
 are coil fields, and I believe them capable of development, capable 
 of supplying for manufacturing purposes all the industrial inter- 
 ests of this Province; and that, too, sir, within twentv-four hours 
 by rail from the mines to Lake Superior, instead of "bringing the 
 coal supplies from the United States, an advantage which will 
 make a great difference in the mining and other industries of 
 this Pri'.iuce. 
 
 Tbe Reaonrces of HndRon'i and James Bay. 
 
 There are o*her interests. Let me point out one other matter 
 of great value. Now, I may remind hon. gentlemen that James 
 Bay and Hudson's Bay do not all belong to this Province, but 
 they are accessible to this Province and to our trade and com- 
 merce. Now, sir, the area of these great waters is 500,000 square 
 miles, which is more I believe, nearly three times eis great, indeed, 
 as that of the North Sea of Europe. The Duke of Edinburgh, 
 in a speech in 1892, pointed out that in one year there was taken 
 from the waters of the North Sea food prbducts to the value of 
 8155,00O,(H)0, 836,00(),(100 of which came to the British Isles. 
 Other nations partake of the fishing in those waters. I want to 
 ask if that is not a matter worth the consideration of the people 
 of this Province and of the people of Toronto. Toronto wants to 
 reach out and grow. Sir, it could grow if it had a portion of 
 that trade in the outfitting and in supplying the population that 
 would be engaged in such a trade. There were taken to Eng- 
 land in the year mentioned 615,000 tons of food products from 
 the North Sea of Europe (which is in the same latitude as James 
 Bay), valued at S80 per ton, or S36,000.000. Is such a trade not 
 worth reaching out for ? I might remind hon gentlemen that 
 these are virgin waters. The North Sea of Europe has been 
 fished for centuries. We have in the Canadian seas referred to 
 many fur-bearing animals, according to the information, a source 
 
30 
 
 I 
 
 ii 
 
 of revenue which does not exist in the North Sea of Em-ope. All 
 these great interests and resources surely make something worth 
 looking after. The Government ia justified, whether they build a 
 railway on their own resources, or aid any other enterprising 
 company or individuals to build to that point ; they are, I repeat, 
 justified in moving as rapidly as possible in that direction — it is 
 eminently in the interests of the people of the Province that that 
 northern country should be opened. It is of still greater im- 
 portance from another point of view, if I may be pardoned for 
 referring to it, than in" respect to its timber and agricultural 
 possibilities, its minerals and its fisheries — these are all of great 
 importance and should be developed. Yet, I believe I am justi- 
 fied in the statement that it would be, from a military point of 
 view, one of the greatest measures of satisfaction to the people of 
 Canada that Canadians could adopt. If you will look at the 
 map you will find Canada is a greit st eh of country from the 
 Atlantic to the Pacific. It spreads out ;^ii the eastern and western 
 border, but the intermediate section U but a narrow strip. I do 
 not anticipate there will ever be any difficulty between Canada 
 and our neighbours to the south. Assuming such a condition to 
 arise, how can communication be best kept up ? With the cen- 
 tral sections of Canada, what would be the advantages it you 
 had a railway running from James Bay to Lake Superior ? I 
 take it for granted that the British navy, which Canada can 
 always look to, can hold its own in the waters of the Pacific, and 
 that by such a means of transportation a British army could be 
 in the very heart of Canada within twenty-four or thirty-six 
 hours from landing on our northern border. The Canadian people 
 are competent and capable of defending the rugged approaches 
 that exist on both the lake coast, and on the north coast. Sir, I be- 
 lieve there is no army in the world that could penetrate the coun- 
 try between Lake Superior and James Bay if defended by Canadi- 
 ans. We have seen that our troops are capable of defending cur 
 own country when they are called to arms, and the people of 
 Canada may well be proud of the work of the Canadian volun- 
 teers who have fought in South Africa. (Cheers.) They are 
 well capable, if the occasion requ-res, of defending the rugged 
 country to which I have referred. Therefore, I say that from a 
 military point of view, such a railway is one of great im- 
 portance to the people of Canada, and especially Ontario. If 
 we would be embarrassed at all it would be mostly on our east- 
 ern and southern border — with this railway across the centre 
 from our northern coast, we could not be blockaded. 
 Sis o'clock, the Hou?e adjourned. 
 Mr. Speaker, just before the House rose I made some obser- 
 vations in reference to the James Bay region and transportation 
 
31 
 
 to and from that point to the commercial centres of the Province. 
 I wish to uiake one or two further references to it, and meet 
 what is sometimes a criticism of the project. It is said by some 
 that the water on the coast of James Bay ia shallow, that tbere 
 is not a good harbor to be found on that coast. I would lii^e to 
 point out in that connection that vessels can now approach the 
 shores of James Bay more closely than they could approach in for- 
 mer decades the cities of Glasgow, Liverpool and Hamburg — 
 vessels had to lay out twenty mile.s or more in the early history 
 of these great cities. That diflficulty has been overcome l>y a 
 system of quays and the same method could be followed to ac- 
 commodate transportation and commerce on the coa^t of James 
 Bay. 
 
 The Mining and other Resanrees of Ontario, 
 
 I should like to say a word or two in respect to the mining 
 and other resources of this Province. It is a matter of difference 
 of opinion in this House, and perhaps through the country as 
 well, as to the extent and value of our timber resources. Hon. 
 gentlemen tell us now, and I find that in 188.5 (the first year 
 that I had the honor of a seat in this House) they were telling 
 us the same thing, that we had cut almost the last stick of tim- 
 ber. I have been hearing that story year after year ever since. 
 I do not profess to know what the timber resources of the whole 
 Province of Ontario are, but I do know something of the resour- 
 ces of the District which I represent, and some ot the adjacent 
 territory, and I would like to call attention to them. Tiie mem- 
 ber for Lanark (Col. Matheson) in his remarks said that we had 
 sold almost the last area of timber in the Province. If he him- 
 self had taken some trouble to ascertain what the timber wealth 
 of this Province is, and the number of berths still unsold, he 
 would have found that there are great areas and many areas yet 
 unsold, although surveyed. (Ministerial applause.) It is not 
 the policy of the Government to dispose of the timber simply be- 
 cause they have it, but to dispose ot it as the reijuirements of 
 trade and the development of the country warrant them in doing 
 so and as other circumstances might justify. Sir, we have a 
 great number of timber berths in various parts of this Province 
 which we have already surveyed, the records of which can be 
 found in the Crown Lands Department. My hon. friend said 
 that a lumberman had told him that we have cut almost the last 
 stick of timber. What does any one lumberman or any ten lum- 
 bermen of this Province know of its timber resources ? I venture 
 to say that there are hon. gentlemen on both sides of this House 
 who are experienced lumbermen and who wjU tell my honorable 
 friend that the best lumbermen have o'ten entirely underesti- 
 
82 
 
 mated their own limita and have thought they had nearly ex- 
 hausted the timber and had sold it, and the purchaser had cut 
 far more on it than they themselves had cut, and then resold it 
 for a larger ?um. (Ministerial applause.) This is the history of 
 timber berths the world over, and it is the history of our timber 
 resources. There are Urge areas left in this Province that have 
 not yet been touched. The area south of the C.P.R. in eastern 
 Algoma is one with which I am pretty well acquainted, and I 
 venture to say that there is half a billion feet of timber in that 
 section alone still in the Crown and still to be disposed of. (Min- 
 isterial applause.) I speak with knowledge of the country. 
 Coming west to the belt between the C.P.K. and the southern 
 boundary of the Province west of Lake Superior, I venture to 
 say, and I am not saying it without knowledge, that there is 
 more than one-and-a-half billion of feet of timber on that 
 area jf land still uncut and still undisposed of. These are enor- 
 mous quantities, and we might duplicate these quantities in the 
 vast areas of timber lying to the north which I do not venture to 
 estimate. I do not pretend to speak of them as I have no per- 
 sonal knowledge of them. The hon. member for Lanark said he 
 did not know of any unsold timber berths. I think if that hon. 
 gentleman knew as much about that question as he pretends to 
 know of some other things, he would not make such a mistake. 
 
 Conserratlve Sales of Timber Umltg In the Disputed 
 Territory to tkelr Friends. 
 
 In these estimates I do not include the timber on Hunter's 
 Island. Hon. gentlemen opposite will remember that when their 
 friends were in power at Ottawa and believed that what is now 
 called New Ontario belonged to the Federal power, .and that 
 they had a right to deal with it, they parcelled it out to their 
 political friends. I find such names as MacDonald & Co., John 
 Shields, MacDonald, Manning & Co., all good Conservatives, 
 among those who were generously treated in this respect. They 
 got 150 square miles each, others got 60 square miles, others again 
 75 square miles and so on, all through the list, and I would like 
 to emphasize the fact that they were all good Conservative work- 
 ers who obtained these large timber areas in the constituency I 
 represent, from the Administration at Ottawa for a mere song, 
 for less money, in fact, than one berth of five square miles has 
 brought to the Province when sold under our regulations. I ven- 
 ture to say that hon. gentlemen have a knowledge of these tim- 
 ber areas, and the manner in which the Ottawa Government 
 proposed to deal with them. « At all events, the information is 
 open for them to digest at any time. (Ministerial laughter and 
 applause.) Mr. John Haggart is another well-known gentleman 
 
33 
 
 whose name I tind on the lUt. Mr, Speaker, that timl«r in all 
 there yet ' (Long continued applause.) It is still uncut. It still 
 belongs to the Crown. It is not, however, to the credit of hen. 
 
 Gentlemen op{>osite that it is there, or to the credit of their 
 riends at Ottawa. It is to the credit of the Reformers of this 
 Province, who stood by the rights and interests of the Province 
 of Ontario, and retained that great source of revenue for the 
 people of this Province ! (Load and continued applause.) 
 
 Not only will we receive from that once-disputed territory a 
 very great revenue from that source, and from other classes of 
 timber, and from our minerals and lands, but I venture to say 
 that th-i time will come when, under proper regulation, a very 
 great revsnue will be obtained from the fishery resources v/hich 
 were retained to this Province by the Reformer-, thus standing 
 for the rights of the Province which hon. gentlemen had aban- 
 doned and opposed. 
 
 The Iron Ore Indnstry. 
 
 Now, air, I just wish to make a few observations with respect 
 to some other resources of this Province. I refer to the mining 
 development of the Province. I quite agree that anythi.ig that 
 is iu the power of the Administration to do, or anything withia 
 reason for this House to do, to develop the mineral resources of 
 the Province should be done, that expenditure in that line is 
 quite justified. We have had some discussion in regard to our 
 mineral development. It is not so very long since, in 189.i, that we 
 gave some encouragement to the production of pig iron within 
 the Province, and I may remind hon. gentlemen that a few years 
 previous a resolution was moved by myself in this House with a 
 view to giving aid for that special purpose, but which received 
 no support from hon. gent emen opposite, and that only one 
 member in the House, apart from myself, who had the honour 
 of moving it, would support it, and it had to be withdrawn be- 
 cause hon. gentlemen on that side of the House did not see fit to 
 give it any support, and it was not at that tim§ adopted as a 
 policy on this side of the House. I am glad to say that that 
 feeling has passed away 't least on this side of the House, and 
 that there is a dispositiou .m the part of the Administration to 
 do everything reasonable for the development of our iron indus- 
 try. I wish to point out what has been done. The small aid of 
 SI per toa granted in 1895 has led to very good results. Previous 
 to that inducement beiiif -fiered, we had no iron smelting in 
 Ontario. There had been some little mining of ore, which was 
 shipjfed and exported in c-e or two sections, but it had long 
 since ceased. Efforts had also been made to establish smelters, 
 but none were successful. It is only since this inducement was 
 
34 
 
 offered that we have had any substantial development. The first 
 practical blast furnace was put in operation in 189tj. In 1900 
 about DO SOU tons of ore were mined and smelted in the Province ; 
 in 1901, 300,000. The smelting of pig-iron is rapidly increasing 
 since that date : there are now furnaces at Hamilton, Deserouto 
 and Midland. Last year these furnaces produced about 63,000 
 tons, having a value of about 8930,000. This year the product 
 will be largely increased ; the output will be not less than 125,000 
 tons, and the value a little over one-and-three-quarter millions. 
 Two additional iron furnaces will go into blast this year at Sault 
 Ste. Marie. There are four furnaces in course of erection there, 
 two of which are about completed. 
 
 Becent Progress lo Sadbnry and Algona DUtricti. 
 
 In addition, we have the steel works at the .Soo just about 
 ready to commence the production of rails. This is a new and 
 important enterprise and one that is fraught with great possi- 
 bilities for the development of this country, and that never 
 would have been established but for the aid given the Algoma 
 Central Railway, whit \ made their establishment a possibility. 
 Hon. gentlemen opposite voted against that enterprise, and must 
 now see the great injury they would have done tlie Province 
 had their policy prevailed. The activity in mining, especially in 
 the Districts of Sault Ste. Marie and Sudbury, has been very 
 marked. The Canadian Copper Company are perhaps the largest 
 producers of nickel in the world. There are besides several new 
 enterprises in that section. The Ontario Smelting Company has 
 erected large reduction works and established an excellent plant 
 and are employing large numbers of men. The Victoria Mines 
 Company has also established extensive smelting and reduction 
 works. Each one of these works comprise a small village, and 
 there is now a marvellous change in that vicinit}'. A consider- 
 able population is engaged in these several works, where but a 
 few years ago there was nothing but forest. One has to see the 
 locality to realize how rapid the change has been and how im- 
 portant these works are to the country. The pay roll alone in 
 this one section this year will exceed $1,000,000, according to 
 the latest returns. Then in the vicinity of Sault Ste. Marie, and 
 the Bruce Mines section, in connection with the development 
 going on in those sections, the pay roll has been, including the 
 railway construction, considerably over 830 01)0 per month. 
 
 In proceeding westward you find nearly the same activity in 
 the vicinity of Port Arthur and Fort William. In the opera- 
 tions in the Atikokan Iron Mines, including construction of rail- 
 ways, elevators and saw mills, there has been a pay roll of from 
 $25,000 to §30.000 per month for the past few years. 
 
3.-) 
 
 The Cood KesalU »t tke »w Ontario Pallcy. 
 
 The actual wages paid in connection with these enterprises 
 do not represent more than one-third of the uxpenditure as plant, 
 machinery, material, food, supplies, etc., exceed by ttvo-thirds 
 the amount of the pay roll, mo that we may conclude that there 
 has been an expenditure of between S7,000,0l)0 and 38,000,000 
 during the last year, and nearly that amount in the previous 
 year. These fi)?ures will probably be con-i'ierably exceeded in 
 the present year, so that there in substantial results from the 
 little encouragement which ha.s been so far given. If the aid 
 had not t>een given to the Rainy Rivur Railway or the Algoma 
 Central Railway, these great works would not have been under- 
 taken. Hon. gentlemen opposite have voted against buth these 
 enterprises, as I have pointed out. Sir, that volume of trade 
 spreading over the Province stimulates industry and assists the 
 manufacturer, the farmer, the stock raiser (whose products are 
 purchased for the wants of these great works and the mining sec- 
 tions) the labourer, the mechanic, the artisan, the busine.ss man, 
 in fact every class of person is benefitted by the great consump- 
 tion needed there and the great numbers employed in the de- 
 velopment of that section. 
 
 The.'ie industries are stimulating trade and spreading pro^pr r- 
 ity throughout the Province; they are building up those new sec- 
 tions of the country, and that is the result of the policy, that is 
 one of the results flowing from the policy which has been adopted. 
 Hon. gentlemen have condemned the grants to the railways. I 
 say that without the grants to the railways being made, these 
 expenditures would never have been made and this develop- 
 ment could never go on. No capital would engage In estab- 
 lishing such great pulp and paper mills, nickel and copper 
 smelters, iron smelters and steel works, unless there was 
 some foundation for the investment of capital and some 
 means of transportation. Sir, the policy of the Government is 
 working well and is entirely justified by the development which 
 has taken place so far, and I may point out that it is mciely in 
 its infancy, that the works now under way are not by any means 
 the full completion of development, that there are yet greater 
 things and some greater developments in store for that section 
 of the country. And so on the section west of Port Arthur. 
 There, too, there has been an expenditure within the last two or 
 three years of between two and three million dollars a year. 
 Incidental to the development of the sections to which I have 
 referred, there has been an expenditure within the last two years 
 of more than fifteen millions, which has gone into the develop- 
 ment of this country and in stimulating all the lines of trade and 
 commerce, in the employment of labour, and in the development 
 
30 
 
 afforded in these new sections. Surely that is something that 
 may be pointed to as among the results. I do not say that the 
 Govtrnment has done it all, but I do say this, that without the 
 consideration and assistance given and the policy adopted we 
 would never have had this development, and I do not think that 
 can be contradicted by anyone who has a knowledge of that 
 country, and the development going on there. These are matters 
 of great importance to this Province, and when hon. gentlemen 
 make these motions that, if carried, would retard the develop- 
 ment of the countrj", I think they are setting themselves in 
 opposition to the best interests of the people. 1 do not wish to 
 impute motives, but I do, however, say that their reoord.s in this 
 House, judging from their votes in the past — because they aie 
 on record a.s voting against nearly every one of these matters — 
 place the hon. gentlemen in an unenviable position. I hope they 
 will improve in the time to come. Whatever policy hon. gentle- 
 men may adopt in the future, I hope that it will be an improve- 
 ment on their policy in the past. (Laughter.) It is a fair thing 
 when hon. gentlemen are criticising the policy of this Government, 
 carping at it, to remind the country of their record, and to point 
 out what is going on to-day, what is known by everybody and 
 anylMdy who has a knowledge of that country, and, as I have 
 said, it affords an ample justification for the grants and aids 
 which have been given with regard to the newer sections of this 
 Province. 
 
 A Comparigon Between the Government and Opposition 
 Policies. 
 
 I do not wish to detain the House at much further length, 
 but I do wish, before closing, to refer to the comparison which 
 has been made between the two parties in this House and in 
 the country. I do not wish to do .so in any offensive sense, but 
 since hon. gentlemen will refer to party matters and throw out 
 insinuations that are severe, to say the least, they must not ob- 
 ject to having their own records laid before them. It has been 
 insinuated that we would have a higher moral standing in this 
 country, more political honesty and morality, it hon. gentlemen 
 opposite had crossed over to the Treasury benches. I would like 
 to know if hon. gentlemen have really persuaded themselves that 
 such would be the case, or if they think they could persuade the 
 people of the country to agree with them. (Laughter) What 
 18 their history ? We have heard references to the West Elgin 
 election. It is a regrettable circumstance, but I do not think 
 that the Reform party are much to blame. Some Reformers are 
 undoubtedly to be blamed, if the cases of wrong-doing alleged to 
 have taken place did take plac;. But where is there a single 
 
37 
 
 Reform leader in thia country, o' ii. t;!'.i House, that has not 
 condemned that sort of thing » tiow can tnt eader of this 
 House be blamed in uny sense ? Vc i;< no mor ■ responsible lor 
 West Eljjin than any ^'entleman c;.) 'site. 
 
 Sir. Mathesox : Why Jon't tlie^ puuio.. tl'.j offenders? 
 
 Mr. CoN.MKE : Why don't the hon. gentleman opposite punish 
 them himself < (Ministerial applause.) He has the right to put 
 the law in motion. Why ilid he not do it against the offenders 
 of his own party i (Renewed applause.) He knows of lots of 
 them running loose in this country. 
 
 The King's County Election. 
 
 The King's County election was a thousand times worse in 
 my judgment, and in thejudgmentof any fair-minded man, than 
 anything that happened in West Elgin. I am not prepared to 
 say that hon. gentlemen opposite were the perpetrators of that 
 wrong-doing. They did not do it. Their political friends and 
 leaders at Ottawa did it. But where is there one Conservative, 
 one hon. gentleman opposite, who has condemned that action or 
 found fault with his leaders for that wrong-doing ? (Ministerial 
 applause). The ballot bo.xes were not stutl'ed in that case — they 
 did not care for ballots. Their plan was an easier one. They 
 declared elected the man who wis defeated by 60 of a majority | 
 it was not the act of a single Conservative but a majority of the 
 Conservative Party in the House of Commons at Ottawa, who 
 stood up and voted that the man who had a majority of votes 
 should not be allowed to take his seat. No charge of that kind 
 can be laid to the Liberals of this country. Sir, the facts were 
 as follows : In the election for the constituency (King's County, 
 Prince Edward Island) there were four candidates, two of whom 
 were to be elected, 'the Liberal candidates were Mr. Mclntyre 
 and Dr. Robertson. The Conservatives, Mr. McDonald and Mr. 
 Muttart. The vote stood as follows : 
 
 Mr. Mclntyre (Liberal) 2124 vote.s. 
 
 Dr. Robertson (Liberal) 2002 vote.s. 
 
 A. C. McDonald (Conservative) 1904 votes. 
 
 Mr. Muttart (Conservative) 1854 votes. 
 
 Dr. Robertson, who polled 62 more votes than the highest 
 Conservative candidate, liad been a candidate for membership in 
 the local Legislature in elections recently held, and had been 
 elected. The Legislature had not met, and no Speaker had been 
 elected. lu accordance with the law, on becoming a candidate 
 for the Dominion House, Dr. Robertson placed his letter of re- 
 signation in the hands of two members elected to the Legislature, 
 and suliseiiucntly wrote to the Lieut.-Governor, informing him 
 
38 
 
 of his action. A Conserrative Government was in power in 
 Prince Edward Island, and on receipt of the resignation of Dr. 
 Robertson, a new election was held and the seat filled. The re- 
 turning officer for the Dominion election, acting upon represent- 
 ations made to him by some Conservative friends, instead of re- 
 turning the two Liberal candidates made a return including the 
 Conservative candidate having the highest number of votes along 
 with one of the Liberal candidates. The matter was thrown into 
 the House of Commons for decision, and althouch Dr. Kobert- 
 son's resignation to the Legislature had been acted upon, and 
 accepted as filling all the laws and forms required by the Con- 
 servative Government of Prince Edward Island, the Conserv- 
 ative majority at Ottawa seated the minority candidate, who 
 occupied the position during the whole Parliamentary term. 
 West Elgin, sir, sinks into insignificance in comparison with 
 this high-handed violation of the constitution — one is the act 
 of a few misguided enthusiasts; the other the deliberate con- 
 spiracy of the Conservative Party and its leaders. 
 
 The Historr of an Algonia Eler'ion. 
 
 Let me relate a little bit of history that comes clo.ser still to 
 hon. gentlemen opposite. I refer to an election in the dis- 
 trict of Algoma, which I have the honor to represent. There, 
 some of the men who used to work in the Conservative ranks. 
 Manning, MacDonald and Co., which included John Shields and 
 John Haggart, at Eat Portage, took 250 to 300 navies and sur- 
 rounded the polls and by physical force refused to allow Re- 
 formers to vote. The Conservatives also brought down the 
 battery from Winnipeg, planted it on the heights at Rat Portage, 
 and tried to intimidate voters. They were never punished. I 
 know the people who did it. I can tell my hon. friends that 
 some of them are holding ofiace now who did more ballot stuffing 
 than was ever done in West Elgin. I know an officer of Cus- 
 toms who acknowledged that he stuffed two ballot boxes. I can 
 tell my hon. friends who they are and where they are, and if we are 
 to have a culling out, there would be perhaps more than one head 
 fall into the basket. 
 
 Conservative Wrons-dolng at Ottawa. 
 
 My hon. friend from Centn Grey told us that there might be 
 wrong-doing on this side of the House, in fact, that the revenue, 
 the cash of the Province might be misappropriated, but if so, 
 hon. gentlemen were unable to learn the facts. Well, sir, that is 
 admitting their own inability. If they choose to take that posi- 
 tion, I would like to know what excuse there is for their further 
 existence in this House — (Ministerial applause and laughter) — 
 
^ 
 
 39 
 
 and on what grounds can they go to the country and ask to be 
 returned. (Renewed laughter and applause.) Will they say to 
 the people, there may be wrong.doing, but we are not able or 
 capable of exposing it, although we have all the resources of the 
 House. Would the people believe them ! I a-sk my hon. friends 
 if there is a more partisan committee in the Ontario House than 
 there was in the P uliament of Ottawa, in the Conservative re- 
 gime > The Liberals at that time did more than insinuate that 
 there was wrong-doing; they proved it. (Ministerial applause.) 
 They brought the perpetrators before the partisan committee, 
 proved them to be guilty of wrong-doing and misappropriation 
 of funds and compelled the Conservative Party to put some of 
 their own friends out of the House and out of office and lock 
 them up in the prisons of this country. (Long continued Minis- 
 terial applause.) When wc hear these insinuations that we on 
 this side of the House are politically dishonest, we do not hope 
 for fair and reasonable attacks either here or in the elections. 
 But we can challenge them and can go further and ask them to 
 look on th? record of our Party and point to any scandal such as 
 the McGreevy scandal, the Curran K-idge, or the Langevin block 
 scandal. I do not say that hon. t i>men oppo.site were perpe- 
 trators in all these wrongs. B. are the gentlemen who 
 supported the men who had perpt ■ ..^d those wrongs. (Minli 
 terial applause.) They went out into the country to secure the 
 support of their party for those same wrong-doers, and they 
 have never yet ri.sen in this House or on the platform and con- 
 demned the wrongs and maladministration which occurred at 
 Ottawa at that time. 
 
 Bace and Belisions Cries. 
 
 Now, sir, I have one more charge to lay against the Conser- 
 vative Party. I have never known a general election, or any 
 other election in this Province, in which that Party to which 
 hon. gentlemen opposite belong did not appeal to race prejudice 
 and religious prejudice throughout the Province and the country. 
 (Applause.) If there is anything in this country that we should 
 look to, that the people of all parties should look to, that every 
 true Canadian should look to, it is that we should stamp out all 
 cries of that kind, that we should meet each other as Canadians 
 in a fair and straight political contest without any reference to 
 race or creed. I say it on my responsibility here that to-day in 
 my constituency Conservative canvassers are going upon the race 
 and religious cry. The Reformers are told that if they do not 
 vote Conservative they had better move to Quebec where all are 
 Frenchmen, and where they are nearly all Liberals. I say the-ie 
 are unworthy tactics and unworthy motives. I am not charging 
 
40 
 
 hon. gontlemeii. or any single hon. gentlciuan opposite, with in- 
 dividually using that sort of argument, but I do say that their 
 press and their party are doing so, and they are taking advantage 
 of it. I say they could if they wished stamp it out. It is the 
 Reform party in this Province of ours that has met and defeated 
 that contention of race and creed all over this country. ( Ap- 
 plause). 
 
 The Ross Covemnienf. 
 
 Sir, no Reformer has reason to shrink from a com jiarison of 
 his party with the Party of hon. gentlemen opposite, either 
 on their record of administration or legislation in this Province, 
 or in this Dominion. It is by the etlbrts of the 'leform Party 
 that we have responsible government in this country and the 
 constitution under which we live, and it is that party which has 
 defeated race and religious cries when they were raised in this 
 Province ; it is that Party which has ever stood for the rights, 
 liberties and best interesta of the people. Why, sir, we have a 
 progressive Government — a Government that is doing everything 
 in fairness. It is a safe Government, one that can be entrusted 
 with developing the resources of this country, one that is giving 
 to all classes in this country a fair service and an honest admin- 
 istration. In a sense it is a new Government. The leader of 
 this House has never yet appealed to the people of this country, 
 and I predict for him when he does appeal that he will be return- 
 ed to this House with a greater majority than any Premier that 
 we have ever had in this Province. (Loud Ministerial cheera)